Model Engine Maker

Engines => From Plans => Topic started by: zeeprogrammer on May 27, 2018, 05:22:14 PM

Title: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 27, 2018, 05:22:14 PM
I may as well jump in and start this. It'll be fits and starts and has a high potential of being dropped. But here goes...

I've been enamored by the Cretor popcorn engine for some time.

I've been studying the plans from Stew Hart and Julius. (My version will likely be a slight mix of the two.)

First job has been converting dimensions from metric to imperial. I have some idea about what dimensions are critical but no doubt many parts will be remade.

This model will be a huge challenge for me. Fabricating the governor, whistle, and inlet manifold all represent some firsts (perhaps some seconds) for me.
The crosshead guide looks to be the most challenging.

The 1st picture is an incomplete CAD drawing I'd made some time ago. It's from Julius' plans and still in metric. (I haven't decided to completely model the build version.)
I expect to make the flywheel according to Stew's plans.

The 2nd picture is a CAD drawing of the crosshead guide. Unless there's good reason not to, I expect to make it from 12L14.

But what's got me stumped is machining that transition from the two inner diameters (see red arrow). Thoughts?

Other than the crosshead guide, all other material is brass, aluminum, and stainless steel.
I'd considered doing the guide in stainless (303) as well. But it costs twice as much as the 12L14 and I already have the 12L14. (I worry about rust though.)

If price were not an object, any thoughts on using 303 for the guide?

The guide should be the 1st thing I go after but I'll probably start with some of the smaller bits...mainly to get into the swing of things again and gain some immediate success.

Drat. Here I am developing a project and T comes in with a project of her own that involves me.
We all understand where my priorities lie, right? That is, I like getting fed.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on May 27, 2018, 05:42:56 PM
Should be a great project Zee. As for shop time, if it's just a matter getting fed, you could always learn to cook. Probably a bit more complicated than that though right ;D

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on May 27, 2018, 06:21:51 PM
I saw the title and thought you needed to know what kind of popcorn to buy...  :Jester:


Looks like a great project, will need to  :popcorn:  while watching.


I like 303 for good machining and it does not rust like 12L14 loves to. For large chunks, go check the Drop Zone part of Yarde Metals website, they usually have big diameter bar at cheap rates, selection varies since they are offcuts from their commercial sales.


For machining that one section, if you use a boring bar on the lathe, with the narrow end of the crosshead in the chuck, you should be able to do that no problem. Also face the end to the cylinder and bore the guide area at the same time. I would turn the whole thing to rough shape and cut all the sides open first, just in case the metal relaxes any from manufacturing  stresses, even a tiny movement would throw off the bore if it was done first. Then do a light finish cut on the contact areas.


 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Jasonb on May 27, 2018, 06:37:27 PM
Set your topslide over before you bore the large diameter using the carrage feed then you can cut the transition with the compound, it's just a tapered bore.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on May 27, 2018, 06:43:58 PM
Well I’m glad you are starting another build. I didn’t want you just lounging by the pool and gardening all summer; a man needs a good excuse to go inside for a cool off and one tends not to spend their evening swilling Kentucky rot gut, if they have a build going, well that’s my excuse anyway  :lolb:. But here’s my biggest concern: have you been eavesdropping on my PM’s? Just last week I started conversation with two of our members ( unnamed) in regards to my starting of the Cretors Lil’ Popcorn Engine from Myers Castings. I swear, I ain’t lying, you can ask Bill and Tug  :lolb:  :lolb:. However, I think this is wonderful that we’ll be building the almost same engine, but, you from bar and I from castings. This could be an award winning mini-series  :Jester:. Have a great holiday (bet you have been around a lot of “real celebrations” ) in your younger years.

Cletus
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on May 27, 2018, 06:51:57 PM
Well I’m glad you are starting another build. I didn’t want you just lounging by the pool and gardening all summer; a man needs a good excuse to go inside for a cool off and one tends not to spend their evening swilling Kentucky rot gut, if they have a build going, well that’s my excuse anyway  :lolb: . But here’s my biggest concern: have you been eavesdropping on my PM’s? Just last week I started conversation with two of our members ( unnamed) in regards to my starting of the Cretors Lil’ Popcorn Engine from Myers Castings. I swear, I ain’t lying, you can ask Bill and Tug  :lolb: :lolb: . However, I think this is wonderful that we’ll be building the almost same engine, but, you from bar and I from castings. This could be an award winning mini-series  :Jester: . Have a great holiday (bet you have been around a lot of “real celebrations” ) in your younger years.

Cletus


New miniseries this summer, Popcorn Wars!!
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 27, 2018, 06:52:44 PM
you could always learn to cook.

And compete with T? I don't think so.  :ShakeHead:
Just think of the potential issues.  :ShakeHead:
Besides, I'd still end up doing all the dishes and that's just not fair.
No no. She cooks. I clean. We are happy.

@Chris. Thanks! I may do a trial with some aluminum. I have a good length of that. If (I mean, when) that goes well then maybe I'll go for the stainless. I would prefer that to the 12L14.

I'm not sure I can do the open spaces first. The part is about 4" long and I was going to use a standing follower at one end. Do the boring then move to mill for the open spaces.  If I do the open spaces first then I don't know what I can hold onto. Are there alternatives? I recall (I believe it was Bob or Rick) mounted the part on the carriage and used a boring head mounted in the chuck. But his was a casting. Thoughts?

@Jason. Thanks. I'll have to get my mind wrapped around that one. Are you saying to do both diameters and then the transition?

@Cletus. As part of watching my back...I have my spies.  :Lol: I anxiously await your build.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Jasonb on May 27, 2018, 07:17:59 PM
Yes do the smaller cross head guide hole first then open up the larger dia using the power feed and finally change to using the topslide handwheel to do the angled transition all in one setting.

I prefer to bore holes into solid metal, any interuptions can cause an out of round hole, you can also hone and lap while solid.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: 90LX_Notch on May 27, 2018, 07:58:52 PM
Carl-

Firsts are what make this hobby so rewarding.  I look forward to your updates with this build.

-Bob
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 27, 2018, 10:13:26 PM
Thanks Jason. And that was a very useful picture too!

Thanks Bob!
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Brian Rupnow on May 28, 2018, 01:23:32 AM
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/856/AnAbiC.jpg)
Carl--when I made my version of the Popcorn engine I redrew all of Stu Hart's work in inches instead of millimeters. Although the crosshead guide looks formidable, it is mostly just straight lathe work. In the main front view there are three places which call for a 0.313" radius. That is where I used the 5/8" ball nosed endmill. For the large radius  of .787", I used a boring head in my mill. Hope this helps.---Brian
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/9418/O50phi.jpg)
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 28, 2018, 03:01:11 AM
Thanks Brian. Both helpful and concerning. Concerning in that your dimensions are so different from mine.
Firstly, your overall length is 4.449 while I have 4.0. Outer diameter is 1.102 while mine is 1.125. The latter somewhat less concerning than the former.
I suspect I took some liberties in that I tried to maintain dimensions in multiples of 1/32, if not 1/16.
Helpful overall. It answered some questions.

Time to review my drawings.  ;D

What does "C'Bore HOLD" mean? (I understand 'counter-bore'.)

Is there a reason why one spec shows to drill with 0.75 while another shows 3/4? Tolerance? I note the 0.75 spec is in the area where the crosshead slides.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Art K on May 28, 2018, 03:04:48 AM
Carl,
My experience has been, keep your partner happy & you can get what you need done
Art
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Ian S C on May 28, 2018, 04:07:59 AM
.750" +- .002" or what ever specified, 3/4"+- 1/32", or near enough, measure with a rule instead of a mic.
Ian S C
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Larry on May 28, 2018, 06:08:37 AM
Here is the one I built using Brian's plans and build log. Fun project. I used 12L14 for the cross head and a brass flywheel casting.
https://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/threads/brian-does-popcorn.15155/

Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: bruedney on May 28, 2018, 06:49:56 AM
Zee

Do you have access to the Model Engineering mag archive?

Issue 4424 has Stew's description of how he made his crosshead. No fancy boring at an angle. It is simply the end of the 20mm hole with a 20mm drill bit (not sure if 118 or 135 deg)

Bruce
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: bent on May 28, 2018, 06:52:54 AM
I wouldn't think 12L14 or 303 would spring much, and if you have a reamer to finish the smaller bore (and clean it up again after milling the sides) you should be ok.  At most, I'd plan to tweak the follower (i.e. machine to fit and minus a couple thou) to make it run smooth.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Jasonb on May 28, 2018, 07:09:20 AM
O/A length is 110mm so your 4" does seem a bit short

C.Bored Hold means counterbore and Hold means the dimension is important and that needs to be a good fit to the cylinder end cover to keep things concentric.

Looking at the actual drawing as said a drill will do for the larger diameter hole as nothing touches it unlike the smaller one that guides the crosshead 3/4" OK
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: sbwhart on May 28, 2018, 07:39:42 AM
Hi Zee pleased to see that you've decided to bite the bullet popcorn with this engine, you'll find that the guide looks nasty but it isn't really just turning, the critical features are as Jason has pointed out the short bore at the front and the smaller bore where the cross head works need to be concentric, from memory the transistion I machines with a big drill that I append to have, and you will find that things will move when you mill away the cross section so its a good idea to rough out those two critical features mill away the cross section let it stand for a few days to do its moving act then finish them off.

Good luck with the project I hope you have fun with it.

Her's a picture of my finished engine

(http://i.imgur.com/Ier8pwCl.jpg) (https://imgur.com/Ier8pwC)

(http://i.imgur.com/Mz7K0eXl.jpg) (https://imgur.com/Mz7K0eX)

(http://i.imgur.com/KlaOlKNl.jpg) (https://imgur.com/KlaOlKN)

And a Video

YeJjQCjNys4

If any one wants a set of drawings just drop me a PM.

Stew
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Brian Rupnow on May 28, 2018, 12:43:10 PM
Zee--when I convert a metric drawing to inches, it's not an exact linear conversion. Sometimes things have to change a bit to fit inch tooling and inch size stock. I know my drawings work, because quite a few people have built from them with no problem. I see that others have answered your other questions correctly.---Brian
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 28, 2018, 01:04:00 PM
Thanks everyone!

Do you have access to the Model Engineering mag archive?
Issue 4424 has Stew's description of how he made his crosshead.

I got your PM Bruce. Thanks! Stew's article made many things clear. Well worth a read.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 28, 2018, 02:11:43 PM
Got the dimensions on the crosshead guide sorted out.

I saw in Stew's article and Brian's plans that a ball nosed end mill, along with an end mill is used to mill away the radii on the sides.
The guide was mounted that all milling was done in Z.

Is there any reason why just an end mill or boring head couldn't be used by mounting the guide on its side and working along the XY?

If the ball nosed end mills have to be a certain size...I don't have them and, if there's no need for them in the future then it seems a waste to buy them.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on May 28, 2018, 02:20:13 PM
A couple small ball nose mills are handy to give inside corners that casting look rather than a hard corner. also can be used to do fluted columns, though an angled normal mill will do the same.
 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Brian Rupnow on May 28, 2018, 02:29:19 PM
Zee--You might get away without using a thumpa thumpa thumpa ball nosed endmill, but that's what worked for me. I've made 3 of those popcorn engines and they turned out beautifully. That crosshead guide is the most eye-catching part of the build. ---Brian
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 28, 2018, 02:44:31 PM
Zee--You might get away without using a thumpa thumpa thumpa ball nosed endmill, but that's what worked for me. I've made 3 of those popcorn engines and they turned out beautifully. That crosshead guide is the most eye-catching part of the build. ---Brian

Wouldn't that mean the ball nose has to be rather large? The diameters I'm looking at are 5/8 and 3/4. (One other is 1.5 but it looks like Stew used a hacksaw and files.)
Or was it done 'freehand'.

On a different note...I've not used a steady rest before. Even with oil, is it normal for fairly heavy gouges to be made in the metal? Granted, this is on aluminum which is fairly soft compared to the steady. Not much pressure at the pinch points.

What I'm really asking...is there a procedure one goes through to 'prepare' a steady rest? That is, should the pinchers be dressed in some way?

At some point I'll have to flip the part to turn the bigger end and that means the steady will be on a finished diameter. Seems to me that finish will be ruined.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: sbwhart on May 28, 2018, 04:12:25 PM
Blimey Zee:- You've really taxed my memory on this one  :noidea: I,ve just had a look through my photographs of the build to try and recall things.

Those radia on the Cross Head Guide I just roughed them out in steps and finished them off with a 1/2 round file.

As for the cross head I forgot i'd used a steady but I know people have built it in two parts, all you have to do is make the 68.64 length 70 on the front end and the 68 length 65 on the back end and put a 20mm dia by 5mm on the back bit so that they fit together and secure with high strength loctite after you've milled the section away:- hope that makes sence.  :thinking:

(http://i.imgur.com/2ytXUiRl.jpg) (https://imgur.com/2ytXUiR)

I'm going to read the build article now that was published in ME to try and jog things a bit more

Cheers
Stew

Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: sbwhart on May 28, 2018, 04:23:31 PM
I lied  :mischief: :mischief: about not using the bull nosed cutter, from my notes I did but and 1/2 round file would do the job:- these are my notes

Cross Head Guide Part 15, was made from a piece of 32mm diameter free cutting mild steel, it would have been easier to make it from aluminium but I didn’t have any of a suitable size, so steel it was to be. I think it would be possible and easier for people with some of the smaller lathes to make it in two parts, with a glued spigot joint at the 68mm point, I wanted to make it in one go, but as the spindle up the lathe was too small for the bar I would have to use a fixed steady to support the job.

Fist supporting the bar with the fixed steady face and centre the end of the bar, then using a running centre turn the 24 mm diameter down to length. J peg 0638 Flip the job round and again supported with the fix steady face and centre drill the other end, and with a running centre turn the 28mm diameter. Supported with the fixed steady, rough drill out the 15mm diameter with a series of ever increasing drills, you don’t need to go all the way through just past the 70mm point. Then drill out the 20mm diameter to depth, here I have a confession, for some reason I didn’t go deep enough with this drill, I probably got my sums wrong, and didn’t notice my mistake until later, but it is of no detriment to the engine and no one knows but us. This 20mm bore is relatively short so if you don’t have a drill it could quite easily be bored. We now need to machine the short 24mm * 7mm deep counter bore diameter, and the long 16mm diameter, its important that these two feature are concentric with each other as they ensure that the cross head is aligned with the bore, which aids free running. For the 16mm dia I was lucky and had a 5/8” which is near enough, as the cross head will be made to fit. If you don’t have a suitable reamer you could always bore it out but its quite a depth and I think this would be quite difficult, I would suggest splashing out and investing in a 5/8 or 16mm drill this would be cheaper than buying a reamer, and if you rough the bore out to within 0.5 mm and you just break the corner of the drill and feed it through slowly with plenty of tapping fluid you should get a reasonable result. The short 24mm counter bore diameter can quite easily be bored to size, use the front cover as a gauge to ensure you get a tight fit. J peg 0645 and J peg 0648 That’s that end done so turn it round and again using the fixed steady drill through to meet up, getting the two ends concentric is not important, just close is good enough, open up to 20 mm and to the correct depth, that the turning done on this part.

From now on its all milling work, as the part ends up as such an odd shape I though it best to roughly mark it out, the easiest way for me to do this was to chuck it up in the indexer, I know the centre height of the indexer is 70mm, so using my height gauge and the rotation of the indexer and with the part blued it was marked out and the lines lightly centre popped just to make then a little clearer, and prevent them being lost. J peg 0656

No great precision is required to mill it out to shape, working to the lines will be good enough. With the job sitting on a parallel first mill the long flat part along the front of the guide, finishing off the corner with a bull nosed cutter, but a round file would finish the corner off just as well. You now have a nice flat face to sit on a parallels and finish off the other side, to cut the 10mm wide section just feed the cutter in from each side until you come to the line, I used a trusty old hack saw to remove the last of the waist material J, peg 0673 and 0676, a good tidy up with a range of files and the jobs a good un.

Well not quite a good un, one final thing to say about this part, you’ve removed a lot of material, this releases internal stresses in the bar, so things will move, particularly if your using bright drawn bar, this means that the 16mm bore will not be parallel, with mine it was small by about 0,1 mm towards the front, don’t do anything with this at the moment we’ll sort that out later.

Stew
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 28, 2018, 04:32:46 PM
 :Lol: Sorry if I gave you a headache Stew.

I'm going to think on the two-part possibility. I have a lot of time for thinking as I'm waiting on some supplies and tools.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 31, 2018, 10:50:42 PM
While I wait for supplies and tools...I thought I'd make some tools.

One being a lathe carriage stop which means cutting a 'V' so it rides on the (front) way.

Here's my question...

I was expecting the 'V' on the way to be 90 degrees. But I'm measuring more like 87-ish degrees.

 :help: Does that make sense? Would I cut the stop's 'V' to 90 or to match the way?

BTW I haven't measured the rear way. The follower and tailstock ride on the rear way while the carriage rides on both the rear and front ways.

The stop will include two holes. One for a rod that can be adjusted along Z and another for mounting a dial indicator in Z.

Eventually a vise stop will be made. I should also make some soft jaws for the vise.

[EDIT] That little step on the bottom is the pivot for the clamping bit.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on June 01, 2018, 12:22:01 AM
If the V notch is just to clear the ways, a couple degrees off should not matter.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: gerritv on June 01, 2018, 01:13:44 AM
I was expecting the 'V' on the way to be 90 degrees. But I'm measuring more like 87-ish degrees.

I thought my King KC1022ML was the only one like that, seems to be part of the general design. I ignored the difference, but didn't make the overall width large enough. That let the unit rotate slightly when the end stop was reached (just pressure was enough). So make it wider would be my suggestion.
It would of course be best to get the angle correct but it is a bit of a puzzle how to do that (from my recollection).

I am about to get a Ammco shaper so the angle should no longer be an issue re: milling :-)
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on June 01, 2018, 01:25:42 AM
Thanks guys.

@gerritv: The drawing is an older version. The width is 1" rather than 3/4".

Okay okay. I'll come clean. I didn't have any 3/4" stock by 1.5". I have 1" by 1.5". So I thought...why mill away all that material?  ;D
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: gerritv on June 01, 2018, 01:58:27 AM
less effort is always a good choice, fewer things to go wrong.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: 10KPete on June 01, 2018, 02:34:04 AM
And you then have a larger chunk to use for something else when you botch that one....

Re: the odd angle. It's surprising how close you can mill to a scribed line.. I would make clean marks in blue and then mill to those. I'd be surprised if you were more than a half degree off.. And a couple of swipes with a file gets your perfect fit.

Pete
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: mklotz on June 01, 2018, 03:09:54 PM
Karl,

Next time you're lusting to buy yourself a tool present, get a set of these...

https://www.amazon.com/AccusizeTools-Pcs-Angle-Gauge-EG02-5050/dp/B00RZQT2P6/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1527861795&sr=8-9&keywords=angle+gauges

It's surprising how often I've had occasion to use mine.  Their major advantage is that they get into locations where my protractor head simply won't fit.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on June 01, 2018, 06:46:28 PM
+1 on Marv’s suggestion, and if you aren’t into putting a DRO on the lathe just yet, look into magnetic backed indicators; they are skookum  :popcorn: :ThumbsUp:

Cletus
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on June 01, 2018, 07:08:29 PM
Hi Marv. Seems I've bought several 'used once' tools. I'm trying to control myself and see that a desirable tool will/can be used a few times before I buy it.
But it goes on the list of ideas for my kids when they ask what they can get me.

In the meantime, I'm printing my drawing to scale and using it as a template. Useful in that, in an earlier version, I saw the rod was placed such that it went between two blocks under the carriage rather than against them or the carriage.

@Cletus. "skookum"...I had to look that one up. You have roots in the Pacific Northwest?

@Pete. That be the plan.  ;D
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on June 01, 2018, 09:00:28 PM
No connection other than a camper, alder smoked fish, some locally grown herbs ( 8)) Joni Mitchell and James Taylor  :Jester:

Cletus
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on June 03, 2018, 11:06:20 PM
I got the carriage lathe stop done.

This was important for me as I've been somewhat 'down' for a couple of weeks and it was good to accomplish something.
I'd like to say it took all day (which it did) but that was for the 2nd attempt.

The 1st attempt failed due to the usual not listening to the inner voice that always asks "are you sure about that?"
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: mklotz on June 03, 2018, 11:34:59 PM
I can't tell from the photo.  Does it incorporate a "save the DI plunger" feature?  If the carriage is driven all the way into the stop, will it force the DI probe beyond its limit?

If it doesn't you may want to add a stud that the carriage contacts before the DI probe is pushed too far.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on June 03, 2018, 11:44:13 PM
You’ll love it Zee. I use a mag-back on the Monarch and it works really well.

Cletus
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Brian Rupnow on June 03, 2018, 11:44:50 PM
Carl---Here's some food for thought. Do you intend to operate the power longitudinal feed on your lathe? If you do, and don't disengage it before the carriage runs into your stop, something expensive is going to break. I was very concerned with that happening on my new lathe, so I designed and made a carriage stop similar to yours, but incorporated a couple of small die springs in the clamping bolts. Now when I position the stop and lock it down, I can feel when my carriage touches it under manual feed. There is a very definite and well defined "Stop". However, the clamp mechanism isn't bottomed out--the resistance I feel when locking it into position is probably about 3/4 compression of the die springs. If (and it's sure to happen sooner or later) I don't disengage the auto feed exactly when I should, the carriage will just move the carriage stop along ahead of it without breaking anything. Once you've turned a shoulder on the piece you are working on in the lathe, the point becomes rather moot, because even if the carriage stop will move, you will run the tool into the shoulder and break something anyways.--Unless your carriage driveshaft has a slip clutch on it.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on June 04, 2018, 01:08:40 AM
@Marv...Funny you mention that. I had noticed that by going to a 1" wide stop, the plunger can be fully depressed without issue.

@Cletus...Thanks.

@Brian...I have no plans to use this when operating with powered longitudinal feed. That's not to say I won't boo-boo but I suspect the stop will move before something breaks. The stop is sufficient for me to feel I manually came to it...but shouldn't be enough to actually stop the carriage if I force it.

One other note about Marv's post...it may be hard to tell...under the dial indicator is a 3/8" rod that is actually the stop. The rod stop and indicator were set so that the indicator would be facing up (about 45 degrees) so I can read it without bending.  The stop can be variably set and locked with a socket head. The dial indicator is similarly locked with a socket head but not for adjusting...just for locking in place.

Attached is my drawing. It's probably not up to date...and certainly not to drafting standards...but it should give you an idea. Not shown is the bit that clamps the stop to the lathe way.

Some of the milling was down by taking the part...trying it on the lathe...then doing more milling.
I don't know if I mentioned, but I should...I got the idea from a youtube post. My version is very similar but I didn't need to mill out an angle for the dial indicator. In the youtube version, the stop rod is offset in two axes whereas mine is offset only in one.

Oops. I just double-checked what Marv was asking about. No..it doesn't depress fully into the body. I might have been using a different dial indicator that did.
No matter.

[EDIT] The drawing is definitely wrong. I did have to shave some more off the bottom in order to clamp. And the 'V' was pretty much done 'free-hand'.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on June 04, 2018, 01:31:44 AM
P.S. I can protect the dial indicator plunger by not having it stick out too far.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on June 04, 2018, 01:56:28 AM
Zee, I really don’t think you have anything to worry about. Anyone who is operating a lathe in a conscientious manner will disengage the power feed just before it touches the indicator stem and will hand feed to their set point. I really couldn’t image even a half assed machinist power feeding alway to the stop or forgetting to disengage  :shrug:. Guess I just pay way too much attention to what I’m doing.

Cletus
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on June 04, 2018, 05:11:36 AM
Zee, I really don’t think you have anything to worry about. Anyone who is operating a lathe in a conscientious manner will disengage the power feed just before it touches the indicator stem and will hand feed to their set point. I really couldn’t image even a half assed machinist power feeding alway to the stop or forgetting to disengage  :shrug:. Guess I just pay way too much attention to what I’m doing.

Thanks. That was certainly my thought regarding powered feed. But there was some good info.

But on that note...something I learned...

If I lock the dial indicator down too much...it squishes the tube the probe is in and it locks too.
That is...I locked the dial indicator...moved the carriage over to get a reading...and the probe wouldn't move.
Loosened a little and all was okay.

So yet another example of that gray area.

Or rather...the Goldilocks story...

Too tight and it don't move.
Too loose and it moves too much.
Just right...and all is well with the world.

P.S. I had to use the word 'squishes'. It's a neat word.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: AOG on June 04, 2018, 12:06:59 PM
I use a magnetic backed indicator that I put on the tailstock side of the carriage. That way you never have to worry about smashing it with the power feed. It also makes it easy to measure distances that are greater than the length of the indicators. When you get to the end of it’s travel,  just push it forward to reset and continue forward.

Tony
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: mklotz on June 04, 2018, 03:22:49 PM
Given that Murphy is alive and well, I would still fix it so that the stop rod could not be retracted far enough to allow the DI rod to be driven past the end of its travel.  A "reminder collar" on the stop rod might work.

Oh, and one other thing...don't ever put another tip on the DI; a longer tip increases the effective length of the DI rod and the problem is back.

I can't tell you how often I've been working away and suddenly couldn't move the carriage because it was up against the stop, set for a previous job and never released.  Fortunately, my left hand stop has no DI.  The DI is on the right hand stop.  Although it's a lot safer there, even that stop has a DI saver pin.

A DI on my left hand stop would be hard to see.  I have a swarf tray fitted to the carriage to keep crap off the ways and it overhangs the front way.

(http://www.use.com/images/s_2/e8989a05e549c8e240b7.jpg) (http://www.use.com/MjjzH)(http://www.use.com/images/clicklarge3.gif) (http://www.use.com/MjjzH)

A DI on the right is always visible.

Having both a left and right hand stop is useful when machining features like the offset pin on a crankshaft. 
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 03, 2018, 10:19:50 PM
Wow. I can't believe it's been a month. I suck.

There are two parts of the popcorn engine that I consider fairly complicated/difficult for me.
One is the crosshead guide and the other is the inlet manifold.

I started on the inlet manifold. It's composed of a body and 4 pipe nipples (3 of which are identical).

1st picture shows the body. Locations for the pipe nipples have been spot faced and drilled for a little locating pin machined on the nipple.
2nd picture shows the parts.
3rd picture shows everything (sort of) assembled).
I need to do a little filing/fettling to get the nipples to fully seat.
After silver soldering the part will be placed in the mill and the holes of each pipe nipple enlarged. The design is such that the locating pin will get machined out.

Now we come to (for me) the scary part. I have to silver solder the nipples to the body and could use some advice here.

I've done very little silver soldering.

The 4th picture shows the orientation I'm thinking to use to silver solder. At the bottom the body is threaded 3/8-32. I intend to make a holder for the body and put the holder in a vise or something to silver solder. Flux and drape some silver solder over the top of each nipple. Then have at it.
I'm also thinking of some white-out (correction fluid) to try and dam the flux/solder. But I may not.
I recall people having problems getting the white out off.

The nipples are a close fit in the body. If they weren't, or even so, I may wrap some wire around them to hold in place.

I'm also wondering if the solder will wick in well enough. I'm not sure I can dink the mating faces to ensure a small gap.

Thanks for any help.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on July 03, 2018, 10:43:04 PM
A few silver solder tips, sure there is more but thought of these:  play the torch on the back side away from the joint, let the metal heat the solder not the flame. If you melt the solder with the flame, the solder will jyst ball up and run off the joint.
Avoid holding in a vise, acts like a heat sink. I got some firebrick from home center, prtects the bench and reflects heat. Having part spanning two bricks lets you put flame underneath.
Make sure the flux is mixed well, it will turn to a solid first, then melt, gi cclear as the metal heats, then solder should fliw.
Have a long spike or pick to push solder wire back in place if it shifts, also can use it to help draw molten solder along a seam.
If flux goes black and dries up, it is soent, stop and try again after cleaning. Thats usually a sign of too small a torch, the more mass to heat, more torch you need. What kind do you have? Propane fed is good, acetylene is tough for a beginner, can overheat a small area too quick. Anything past a red hot part is way too hot, risks sagging. Heat evenly across both parts, if one part is smaller or thinner it will heat before a thick one and take all the solder.


Sure I forgot some tips, others will fill in!
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Ramon on July 03, 2018, 10:52:32 PM
Zee - you don't have a great volume of material here so it will not take a great deal of heat to bring that to temp.

Same advice as given to Gary recently. If you apply a solder ring around the nipples make sure they don't fall across the threads once you start. Personally I would apply the solder - just make sure the temp is up to 'flow' temp before before putting the solder stick to the joins. Clean it well (no finger grease) plenty of flux (as a paste) and get the heat up until the flux takes on a water like consistency ( a good indicator that the temp is about right).  If you do make a fixture or need to hold it in a vice make sure either does not act as a heat sink to prevent adequate heating of the part.

Your biggest issue is going to be preventing the solder wicking up the threads of the nipples so be minimal with the solder application - the thinner the solder (stick) the better.

I have not used the correction fluid so can't comment but a soft lead pencil has a similar effect - can be a bit messy so difficult to control on something like those threads

If you get a good fillet around each outlet then I wouldn't be too concerned about it wicking in enough - it'll find itself .

Hope that helps Zee - Tug

Ah, Chris is up first - same track  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 03, 2018, 11:01:27 PM
Thanks Chris!
Some tips I knew but others were helpful. I do need to get a spikey thingie.
I have a simple propane torch (often used to make creme brulee) but for silver soldering I have BernzOMatic Fat Boy (MAPP).
That should work for such a job...but probably not good when/if I get to boiler making.

Just to be clear...I mentioned the 'holder thing' as a way to avoid heat sink issues with a vise. I should probably make it out of brass.

Just saw your post Ramon...thank you very much. It sounds like you're suggesting I heat and apply the solder rather than place the solder and then heat.

I don't expect to be able to control the solder very well. More of an experiment. Later I can do some filing/sanding and even re-threading (I think).

That's one of the interesting things about this hobby...almost every project I've started has presented something I've never done before.
Or maybe I haven't done enough.  ;D
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on July 03, 2018, 11:08:43 PM
That torch will be fine for small parts. For a boiler, definitely need more, been there, done that!


As for applying solder first or later, depends on what you have. I use the fine wire style from jewelry supplier, it works better to wrap around the joint. For thicker stick type, applying it once the metal is hot is probably better as he said. You can also snip off short bits of the rod and lay along a joint. Both ways work well. Big thing is practise.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Ramon on July 04, 2018, 08:04:37 AM
Zee - the reason behind 'heat then solder' is that you have several joints in different planes. Keeping the solder rings, or small pieces as Chris suggests, in place as you heat it will be difficult if you intend to do it all in one heat.

It can be difficult to neatly position solder to a joint but to help have more control over a thin bit of 'wire' solder waving around - drill a hole the size of the solder in the end of a length of mild steel rod (about 3/16 dia) and hold a short length of the solder in that - makes for much better control.  Just give the end of the solder a tap with a hammer to distort it enough to retain in the holder.

Your Mapp torch should be fine for the part Zee - something Chris mentioned though and I should have is that brass can be easily overheated and can distort under it's own weight so keeping an eye on overall heat and waiting for that flux to go fluid is important.

Another factor to be wary of is that the flux paste, as it dries with the initial heat, can move small pieces like your threaded nipples out of line so a means to keep them in place is a good idea - your fixture perhaps?

As I say to anyone with soldering questions - Cleanliness - flux - heat - in that order but just as Chris says practise is key.

Hope it all goes well for you

Tug
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on July 04, 2018, 01:08:51 PM
Zee, does this part really need silver soldering. The soft solder (like that from PMR) will require much less heat and in my opinion would be plenty strong enough for the inlet manifold. Might be much more forgiving for this part though it would prevent silver soldering later.

https://www.pmmodelengines.com/shop/steam/boiler-accessories/solder-flux/

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 04, 2018, 02:31:16 PM
Thanks Chris.
Thanks Ramon.

Thanks Bill. That's an interesting link. 4% silver and that's what they use on their boilers. Melts at 430F.

I just looked in the box (not opened for years!) holding my supplies. I have 45 that melts at 1370F and 65 that melts at 1205F. (Harris Safety-Silv).
Interesting that the lower silver content requires more heat. But that stuff contains copper and zinc. PMR is tin.

Is the PMR stuff okay for locomotive boilers? Or does the ability to use different temperatures come into play?
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on July 04, 2018, 02:54:56 PM
Zee, NO it's not good for boilers. PMR supplies it only as a filler material. The rivets take the pressure. But the 4% solder is great for things subject to less heat and pressure and if you will be running the popcorn engine mainly on air it will be fine for the manifold.

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on July 04, 2018, 02:59:28 PM
If you have old silver solder, make sure it is cadmium free! Some of the older stuff had it, nasty for health.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Jo on July 04, 2018, 03:03:18 PM
If you have old silver solder, make sure it is cadmium free! Some of the older stuff had it, nasty for health.

Only if you use it frequently in an enclosed area and breath the fumes in.

Best to always do silver soldering in a well ventilated area - much like running gas engines  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 04, 2018, 03:04:41 PM
Thanks Bill. I did wonder because the boiler kit I have uses rivets but I didn't know if all PMR boilers did.

Thanks Chris. Yes, everything I have is cadmium free.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 09, 2018, 10:39:16 PM
I'm going to order the PMR solder set. In the meantime I worked on the pedestal for the cylinder.

According to the drawings, the pedestal has straight, slanted corners. In Stews article though, he used a ball end mill and gave some detail.
To put the corners in though requires a bit larger piece of stock (that I didn't think I had) and I'd already cut what I was going to use.
So I did a similar thing but the base is not as splayed out as Stew's. I'm okay with that.

1st pic shows machining the sides (i.e. corners). This was not the way I wanted to do it but I couldn't fit the part into the vise. It was either too deep or not in at all.
All my parallels are in multiples of 1/8. It didn't occur to me until after I'd started that I could have made a square shim or even used some scrap plate I had.

So I had to make several passes back and forth in order to get a fairly flat surface until the curve started.

It went okay though. A bit of filing and sanding worked pretty well.

2nd pic shows the finished pedestal. It could use some more sanding and I'm hoping to paint it.

Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on July 09, 2018, 11:47:35 PM
Came out looking good!
 :popcorn:   (seems recursive, eating popcorn while watching a popcorn engine...)
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Brian Rupnow on July 10, 2018, 12:29:24 AM
Looking good Zee. I have a similar tilt-a-whirl vice. Not the most accurate vice in the world, because the moveable jaw kicks up a bit, but really great for milling on an angle.---Brian
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on July 10, 2018, 01:36:04 AM
Looking good zee. Keep it up and you'll have an engine here before long.

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Craig DeShong on July 11, 2018, 02:40:01 AM
looking good Zee.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: propforward on July 11, 2018, 03:51:44 AM
It's a really excellent engine - top work too, very impressive. I'm looking forward to the finished article.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Ramon on July 11, 2018, 05:30:21 AM
Good start Zee - keep it coming :ThumbsUp:

Tug
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: kvom on July 11, 2018, 12:37:39 PM
Zee made a part?  And only 66 replies in the thread?  Amazing!   :popcorn: :stir:

Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on July 11, 2018, 12:48:57 PM
He’s off and running; and with a nice foundation to build on at that. Way to go Zee.

Cletus
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: kvom on July 12, 2018, 02:41:06 AM
Careful Cletus, he's gaining on you.   ;D
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Roger B on July 12, 2018, 09:00:00 AM
Glad to see you are underway  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp: I will be interested to see how you get on with the manifold  :ThumbsUp:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 15, 2018, 09:16:01 PM
Zee made a part?  And only 66 replies in the thread?  Amazing!   :popcorn: :stir:

 :cussing:

Actually, you are wrong my friend.  ;D I made the bits to make a part. When the solder/flux arrives, we'll see if a part can be made.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 15, 2018, 09:24:19 PM
I've started on the flywheel. (Again, just a bit...not a part.)
It's composed of a rim, a hub, and 6 bent spokes. All brass.

I made the rim out of 1/2" plate.
I should have hacked the corners off but didn't.

1st pic shows the corners getting rounded off. The plate is held by a long bolt (the head is behind the jaws).

2nd pic shows the wheel all rounded. Slightly larger than finished diameter (I'll have more to say about that later).

3rd pic I went to reverse jaws, bored out the rim and faced one side. I didn't bother with shims to hold because I expect (hope) to machine to diameter later.
It was during this operation I had to change clothes.  :facepalm:

4th pic I went back to the standard jaws, held with shims, and faced the other side.

5th pic shows the reason for the underwear change. I had a mechanical stop but at some point, for some reason, I moved the compound and forget to reset the stop. Boring bar went in far enough for the chuck to catch it.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Brian Rupnow on July 15, 2018, 09:33:30 PM
I'm setting here chuckling.--Sure makes your old heart go pitter-patter, doesn't it. You lived through it--Bet ya won't do that again.---Brian
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 15, 2018, 09:39:08 PM
This is the start of the flywheel hub.

I used a clamp as a stop. In the picture you'll see that the holes are tapped.

The idea (from the plans) is to thread the spokes and loctite them in.

The reason why the hub is still on its parent stock is, after the spokes are installed, the whole thing is put in the lathe and the spokes turned down to the inside diameter of the flywheel. The flywheel is then loctited on.

The spokes are 1/4" brass rod that will be annealed and bent. According to the plans, you take a datum off a bend, cut one end of the spoke to length, and thread it.
I'm not sure how to go about cutting and threading a bent piece of rod.
When I make the bending jig, I'm thinking of placing a mechanical stop for that end. I would thread the end first and then bend it. To prevent the threads from getting damaged I would put a nut on and clamp on that when bending.

Thoughts?

Once everything is put together then back to the lathe to trim and true the outside of the rim. Face the sides if required. That brings another concern because I have to rely on the loctite holding the spokes to the rim.

BTW In Stews article, the hub is turned down on the lathe and then transferred to a spindexer to drill/tap the holes. i.e. an example of a part being left in the chuck and being transferred. In my case, I have neither a suitable chuck nor a spindexer plate to hold the chuck. Should be okay.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 15, 2018, 09:39:50 PM
I'm setting here chuckling.--Sure makes your old heart go pitter-patter, doesn't it. You lived through it--Bet ya won't do that again.---Brian

Bet I will.  :-[
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on July 15, 2018, 09:41:34 PM
I'm setting here chuckling.--Sure makes your old heart go pitter-patter, doesn't it. You lived through it--Bet ya won't do that again.---Brian

Bet I will.  :-[
You are okay, the boring bit is toast, how is the chuck?
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 15, 2018, 10:00:19 PM
You are okay, the boring bit is toast, how is the chuck?

Chuck jaws seem okay. They were the reverse jaws. (I've seldom used reverse jaws.)
Not as bad as picture may indicate.
Middle jaw took the brunt of it.

Not knowing much about this...it doesn't look like the area that got hit is used.
The flats above those areas is what a part would be held against.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on July 15, 2018, 10:12:56 PM
Better the boring bar or chuck jaws than fingers or body parts though.  Glad it wasn't worse zee.

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: 10KPete on July 15, 2018, 11:10:09 PM
Aw heck, Zee, ya hardly skinned it! You're gonna have to do better than that if you want a new chuck.... :lolb:

Gettin' there....

Pete
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: steamer on July 15, 2018, 11:15:46 PM
You are okay, the boring bit is toast, how is the chuck?

Chuck jaws seem okay. They were the reverse jaws. (I've seldom used reverse jaws.)
Not as bad as picture may indicate.
Middle jaw took the brunt of it.

Not knowing much about this...it doesn't look like the area that got hit is used.
The flats above those areas is what a part would be held against.

You're right Zee....no real harm done I think....stone the marks out if it will make you feel better, but we've all done it at least a few times....happens


Dave
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 16, 2018, 12:19:12 AM
Oh I'm not feeling bad about it. Slightly stupid perhaps.  ;D
Minor mishap but worth posting in hopes it helps others.

Doesn't compare at all to the other (non-machining related) stupid I executed with aplomb today.  :lolb:

Was working on a model and glued a part in before realizing another part needed to be glued in first.  :facepalm:
Actually, before 34 parts needed to be glued in first. 34? Yes. All oars.  :cussing:

That model is now destined for air-brushing practice. (And 50 years ago...BB gun practice.)
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on July 16, 2018, 12:23:19 AM
Hmmmmm...we used firecrackers....airbtush practice is probably safer though  :lolb:

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 16, 2018, 12:29:37 AM
Hmmmmm...we used firecrackers....airbtush practice is probably safer though  :lolb:

As did I.  ;D The best one I did was black cats wrapped in foil and filled with flour.
One in the hull...one in the turret.
The hull went off first. The turret went up 15 ft into the air and then went off.

I won't mention what happened to King Kong, SpiderMan, and numerous vehicles and ships.

A 22 and a bow and arrow were sometimes in play.

Looking back on all that...a) Boy was I stupid (not to mention those things are worth money) and b) Somehow came out unscathed and c) Boy was I stupid.

I lived on the outskirts of town with a creek and a nice big hill behind it. Paradise for a boy.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: propforward on July 16, 2018, 12:34:55 AM

Was working on a model and glued a part in before realizing another part needed to be glued in first.  :facepalm:
Actually, before 34 parts needed to be glued in first. 34? Yes. All oars.  :cussing:

That model is now destined for air-brushing practice. (And 50 years ago...BB gun practice.)

Sorry to hear that - but interested to hear and see more of your other model making hobby - I do a bit of that as well. Subject for another thread perhaps.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Craig DeShong on July 16, 2018, 01:06:25 AM
5th pic shows the reason for the underwear change. I had a mechanical stop but at some point, for some reason, I moved the compound and forget to reset the stop. Boring bar went in far enough for the chuck to catch it.

Though some of us won't admit it, we've all heard those crunching, screeching, loud BANG noises.  Some of us  :-X still have nightmares about them.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 16, 2018, 01:30:04 AM
5th pic shows the reason for the underwear change. I had a mechanical stop but at some point, for some reason, I moved the compound and forget to reset the stop. Boring bar went in far enough for the chuck to catch it.

Though some of us won't admit it, we've all heard those crunching, screeching, loud BANG noises.  Some of us  :-X still have nightmares about them.

Well that's just it. I remember when I started this hobby...rather, when I fell upon this forum...if anyone thinks that even the 'experts' don't have clinching moments, then they are mistaken. That's a major reason why I like this forum. Even the experienced will point out their mistakes, what to look for, how to avoid, etc. Or more importantly...point out the mistakes they make.

It's very much an educational/learning forum. That's why I'm here.

Stuart...I've been wanting to build a trireme. I've been playing with some steppers motors...4-bar linkages...and got a model to study. It may not go anywhere. But, as I've said before, I'm a road guy...not a destination guy. So I play. But tomorrow a squirrel may appear.  ;D

It's all about enjoying life...whatever way works. I do not worry about judgments. For example..."but did you finish it"? Define 'it'!
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: sbwhart on July 16, 2018, 06:37:05 AM

The spokes are 1/4" brass rod that will be annealed and bent. According to the plans, you take a datum off a bend, cut one end of the spoke to length, and thread it.
I'm not sure how to go about cutting and threading a bent piece of rod.
When I make the bending jig, I'm thinking of placing a mechanical stop for that end. I would thread the end first and then bend it. To prevent the threads from getting damaged I would put a nut on and clamp on that when bending.

Thoughts?

 

That,s the way to do it Zee thread first bend second  :ThumbsUp: if the thread get marked you can always run the die down again to clean it up.

Stew
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: gunna on July 17, 2018, 07:16:49 AM
My old shop teacher always claimed that the only reason carbide tipped tools were invented was so that we students could take bigger pieces out of the chuck jaws. :old:

Ian.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 17, 2018, 04:26:49 PM
It's been a long time since I've done any pickling (other than myself).
A bit of research has led me to the following and I'd appreciate any thoughts...

I know there are different pickles, citric acid, sulphuric acid, vinegar, etc.

I intend to use citric acid.

1) Can be stored in a plastic container. I'm not sure if the type of plastic matters. I'd have a lid.
2) Probably better to start with a weak solution. I'm thinking one teaspoon per 8 oz water. (Very high concentrations requires heating.)
3) I'm not sure how long a batch lasts. Seems I recall people tossing it when it got a pretty funky smell.
4) Seems I recall people talking about the redness of the part after pickling. I can't recall what they did to reduce that.
5) Some people suggest correction fluid as a solder dam but I seem to recall trouble getting it off.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on July 17, 2018, 04:55:03 PM
Zee, Stan has a recipe for getting rid of the red color. Shoot him a PM or email as I don't recall exactly what was in it.

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on July 17, 2018, 05:09:24 PM
Hello Zee,

I use a product called Volcano which is an acid wash used for cleaning and brightening aluminum. I only use it one time to keep contamination to a minimum. Dilute one part to ten parts of water. Rinse your part really good after cleaning. It also works on stainless steel, brass, copper and silver. You can find it at most truck stops.

muleheadbrand.com   T.W.Pelton & Co.   870-535-1871

Hope this helps.
Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on July 17, 2018, 05:17:22 PM
I have used a variety of things, Sparex 2 which is a jewelry product, great on brass and copper, vinegar, citric acid (dont know proper concentration, too much and it wont dissolve more), muriatic acid from home center. Even salt water. All work, speed of less acidic is slower but safer. Vinegar is cheap at grocery store and works, store in a plastic jar, cap to keep smell down, works quite well, and is safe if you get any on you. Soak in pickle then wire brush in running water. I use fine brass wire to suspend parts in pickle, easy to remove without tongs, can reuse many times. Color can be removed with sanding or just a scouring pad.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Stuart on July 17, 2018, 05:17:41 PM
Zee

Just put a teaspoon of domestic house hold bleach in your mix that will stop the bug growth I have a small tub of
‘Dip” made up now for two years still smells sweet

Well that’s what it sez on the tin( plastic container)

One tip I have passed this before if you dip steel fully immerse it or the surface of the liquid will etch a line that won’t buff out
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 17, 2018, 07:45:05 PM
Thanks everyone. This was very helpful.

Much appreciated.  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Brian Rupnow on July 17, 2018, 07:55:27 PM
Zee--I use a citric acid pickle--keep adding citric acid powder to a small container of water, stirring until it won't dissolve anymore. Leave your parts in for about an hour. Don't leave them in overnight, or they turn a really ugly black. Buy a small brass bristled brush (I have one that looks an awful lot like a tooth brush). Take parts out of pickle solution and scrub them well with the brass bristle brush under a stream of cold water from the tap. That will get rid of the red stuff.---Brian
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on July 17, 2018, 08:02:15 PM
Somewhere I also heard that CLR (or equivalent) ( pot descaler) works good also. I’d also bet some of those pool chemicals, mixed properly, would work too. I’ve also heard that you can use 20:1 vodka and vermouth with a generous dash of olive juice; soak parts, discard parts, and drink solution  :naughty:.

Cletus

Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Brian Rupnow on July 17, 2018, 08:36:04 PM
Zee--Please be very careful of what chemicals you mix together to do your pickling. Some chemicals, particularly acids, react violently with each other and explode. I know someone who suffered severe chemical burns to their face and eyes trying to use two different chemicals mixed inadvertently when trying to clean a toilet bowl.--Yes I know---sounds funny, but the person was scarred for life.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 17, 2018, 09:47:52 PM
Zee--Please be very careful of what chemicals you mix together to do your pickling. Some chemicals, particularly acids, react violently with each other and explode.

Not to worry. I do not want to be a chemist. I'm keeping it simple and safe. It's not an area to experiment in.
Always a good point though.

Today was a disaster.
My attempt to bend the 1/4" brass rod for the spokes did not go well for several reasons but primarily for lack of experience.
I need to get a better burner and practice.
Or...I may just go for straight spokes.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: sbwhart on July 17, 2018, 10:05:10 PM
Zee don’t get to hung up trying to bend the spokes keeping them straight would be perfectly acceptable no one would know any difference

Stew
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 17, 2018, 11:45:51 PM
Thanks Stew. I'm going for the straight spokes.
I have to recognize that gaining experience is incremental and there's much yet to learn.

This engine is a step up for me in learning new methods and techniques.

1st pic is the hub with straight spokes. I'm fairly pleased with it. You can barely see a thread on one spoke...and only if you know what to look for.
All loctited up. In a couple of days I'll start trimming. I did put it on the lathe to see if the spokes are fairly in line. Not too bad.

2nd pic is the jig I'd made for the disaster-ous bending of the spokes. I had another plate bolted underneath as a stop for the dowels.
I started with a MAPP (fat boy) torch only to find it was empty.
Then I tried a propane torch (I use to make creme brule) which (as previously warned) was insufficient.
Either the 1st dowels were not close enough...or more likely...you have to have enough rod sticking past them in order to bend.
This proved a problem as I was trying to make that end of the rod to dimension (and threaded) and the dowels didn't hold it.
Actually...now that I think on it...I forgot to clamp the rod to one of the dowels.  :facepalm:
Bigger problem though, I think, was I didn't get the brass hot enough for long enough to anneal it.
That's where experience comes in. I was really afraid of melting the brass. (I did that once with aluminum.)

I blame 'gary' for making me post my disaster.  ;D His post made me feel bad that I wasn't more up front with my disaster.
It was really a series of bad/stupid errors.

In reality, I thank 'gary'. I'd rather expose myself  ;D if it helps someone else have more success.

I truly appreciate this forum. I know of others that would really knock one down.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on July 17, 2018, 11:52:09 PM
Confession is good for the soul, or so I’ve been told  :lolb:. Sputnik looks really good and should work great in the flywheel. I’m digging your barstock build as I trudge through my casting build.

Cletus
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on July 18, 2018, 12:18:24 AM
Looks like pretty thick brass ti bend, especially in such a short spoke.


Only seeing one picture, nothing with jig...
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 18, 2018, 12:23:01 AM
Looks like pretty thick brass ti bend, especially in such a short spoke.


Only seeing one picture, nothing with jig...

Correct.

Oops. Not sure why the 2nd pic didn't take.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on July 18, 2018, 12:34:49 AM
The end result looks great Zee. Those are short and thick pieces to bend, so it's easy to understand the difficulty. Straight looks just fine though.

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: propforward on July 18, 2018, 02:14:18 PM

That's where experience comes in. I was really afraid of melting the brass. (I did that once with aluminum.)



I completely agree with all your sentiments.

I seem to remember, in regards to annealing aluminum specifically - once upon a time, back in the UK in metalwork class - this was when I was 10, and when they still taught the use of lathes, mills and tools in school - we had a project which was to make a simple aluminium coat hook. So it involved cutting, drilling and bending / forming on a jig. Good fun. Anyway, the shop teacher showed us how to anneal aluminium with a hand held blow torch. First we coated the aluminium part with liquid soap - just smeared it on - then heated it. Once the soap turned black, it was done. A brilliant trick, and we could bend and curve that piece of aluminium with ease.

I don't remember many things, but I do remember that. Of course, I've never needed to do it since, but now I think I'm going to think of some sort of aluminium bracket for something, just so that I can do that again.

I don't recall it being difficult to clean the black soap off, but that was a long time ago.

Anyway - there you are.  ;D
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 18, 2018, 02:45:01 PM
Those are short and thick pieces to bend, so it's easy to understand the difficulty.

Just to clarify...I wasn't trying to bend them when they were that short.
However, you do point out one of the mistakes I think I made.
I was using a long rod. The idea being to thread an end, anneal it, bend it, cut it off, then do the next spoke.
So when I was trying to anneal the end I was going to bend, the rest of the rod was a heat sink.
I should have cut blanks, maybe 3 inches long, thread, anneal, and bend.

Although, as I mentioned, threading first left me too little rod to clamp onto. Or there may have been another way.

@Stuart - I didn't know one could anneal aluminum. I'll have to remember that (and the trick).
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on July 18, 2018, 02:52:41 PM
When annealing the brass, the color reached is the guide. Do it in dimmer lighting or it does not show well. Heat till the area being done is a dull red, and you are done. You dont need to keep it hot for a long time, and cooling slow or quenching makes no difference to the results in brass or copper.


What may have been the issue: With that thick a bar, it will work harden again during the bend pretty quickly, so you need to bend till you feel it stiffen up, then reanneal it again for more bending distance. When doing boiler end caps in thinner copper, it can take half a dozen cycles.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 18, 2018, 08:56:52 PM
Rats...or more strongly  :cussing: :cussing: :cussing:

Squared up some brass, put it in the 4-jaw, faced, center drilled, and drilled badness.

I don't have small enough boring bars so I intended to drill 31/64 and then ream.
But as soon as the drill got past the angle of the center drilled hole...everything went wonkers, the tailstock chuck started spinning, and then everything stalled.

I had half expected it so was well puckered.

Lowered the speed a little and had at it again and fed with a tad more strength.
All went well and then reamed.

The result is that horrendous step inside the bore (see pic).

Thinking to myself...maybe it'll be okay. Perhaps the piston is thick enough and won't go so far as to hit the step.
So I flipped the part and faced to length.

Gosh darn it.  :cussing: I had about 1/8" to take off and should have done just a slight face and taken the majority off the end with the step (effectively reducing the step).
And gosh darn it.  :cussing: When I flipped the part I got it backwards and the cylinder bore was no longer on center. Not a real issue but I had intended to put a slight chamfer on the rim of the bore.

I wasn't rushing. I wasn't interrupted. I was dumb.  :facepalm:
Since retirement, I don't believe I've made a single part correctly or to spec. Sigh.

Anyway...some questions...

1) Do over?
2) Step up in drill size rather than in one go?
3) Forget drilling and reaming...get a proper boring bar?
4) Forge on and do the holes, ports, and mill the round. That'd be good practice.

#4 is a given. Thoughts on #1 - #3?

Is it 5 o'clock yet? Drat!
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on July 18, 2018, 09:06:37 PM
First of all, if you have to wait on five o’clock and you’re retired, that’s a problem  :naughty:. Secondly, since you are retired and it’s such a small bit of stock, I’d go with one through three  8)

Cletus
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 18, 2018, 09:11:31 PM
First of all, if you have to wait on five o’clock and you’re retired, that’s a problem  :naughty:.

Any earlier would cut into machining time.

Hmmmm. Not necessarily a bad idea.  ;D
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on July 18, 2018, 09:17:32 PM
Get a proper small diameter boring bar, I have one that goes down to about 1/4" diameter hole and love the finish I get on cylinder bores. If the one you have looks like the one you pretzeled the other day, that is more like the ones you put in boring heads on the mill, there is another type meant for the lathe that has a smaller starting hole needed and better reach, you can find ones that take inserts which take out the resharpening issue. Mine was a gift from a retiring machinist, so I don't know what brand it is. Here is a picture of mine:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5dr4sqmpz/IMG_2967.jpg)
With a proper bar, you can start with a small hole (much over 3/8" drill gets grabby if you feed too fast, I like to start at about 1/4" and bore from there) and work up to whatever you need in multiple passes. The little bar I showed has been used on everything up to my Corliss cylinders. No need for reaming, just bore directly to size.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 18, 2018, 09:32:11 PM
I do like boring better than drill/reaming when the hole gets above 3/8. I've had very little luck bigger than that.

I don't worry much about being able to do the holes/ports but I do intend to practice milling the curve on the cylinder.

Sigh. 28 more minutes.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on July 18, 2018, 09:42:47 PM
Drats indeed Zee. I would make it over as you won't be happy with it otherwise. A.R. Warner has a nice boring bar in several sizes. I don't think their smallest will go down to 1/4" but should work with a 3/8" starter hole.

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 18, 2018, 10:45:47 PM
I think I need Chuck's recliner.

Must not have tightened down enough or tried to take too much of cut.
Pulled the part right out of the vise.

I knew I should have stopped at 5:00.
It is now 5:45.

Cheers.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on July 18, 2018, 10:55:57 PM
Ouch.

But, i been there, done that, will do it again, I am sure. Just had it on a couple of my track parts yesterday, slipped in vise and chewed down the side.
 :zap:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on July 18, 2018, 11:02:22 PM
Not a good day Zee. Guess that settles the remake issue though. Some days you're the windshield, some days you're the bug  ::)

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Kim on July 18, 2018, 11:10:18 PM
Aw man... :(
What a bummer, Zee!
I've certainly done this before.  And you just wish you'd stopped sooner.

But now, you can start fresh tomorrow and try again, right?! :)
Kim
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 19, 2018, 12:31:02 AM
Thanks guys.

But now, you can start fresh tomorrow and try again, right?! :)

Perhaps. Or a day or two or three later.
It's well after 5 now. About to finish the first sheet.  :lolb:

I don't have a picture yet...but I did finish rounding the cylinder. I should have made more passes at different angles but for a first time I'm fairly pleased with it.
Most important...I managed that point where the curve meets the straight.

So the day ends up okay...and I'm feeling good. Decent anyway. Okay for sure. Better than an hour ago.  No pain. :lolb:  :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 19, 2018, 02:06:43 AM
Here's a pic of the 'practice' cylinder.
Overall I'm happy with it. More passes at angles, or a different setup, might have been an improvement.
I'm especially glad the junction where the curve hits the straight seems to be good.

It also turns out I have a boring bar that will fit within a 7/16 hole. That may do to get to 1/2".

I do have a question about drilling up to 7/16".
All in one go? Or go in steps? (I've tried that before - just once - and it wasn't good.)
If I go in steps...what step size?

This is brass...which never seems to like being drilled.

Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Art K on July 19, 2018, 03:07:20 AM
Zee,
Thought I'd let you know that I am following along. I've been on vacations for the past two weekends, yes an extra long 4th. Sorry to hear about the trireme, is that just a matter of reprinting the associated parts? The boring bar meeting the chuck, been there done that, just with less a shower of sparks than you. :mischief: I have a set of boring bars that I got with my Criterion boring bar set, carbide I might add. But it came with a set of 9 bars all 1/2" shank. Basically 3 diameter sizes & 3 lengths. Having said that when I built the Upshur single I needed to bore the cam gear 3/16". So I bought a very small one from Travers Tool, I then used it on VAL. You had mentioned having trouble drilling larger drills, was that related to the off centered tail stock and would it drill fine now that you have it centered? The final result on the cylinder looks good, any chance you can face it to length? I really was way behind... :facepalm2:
Art
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on July 19, 2018, 03:08:54 AM
Going all in one go should work, though you might get chatter as it starts, till it gets the whole drill diameter in the metal. When step drilling, I usually go every other fractional size. If you have some offcut brass, good time to run a couple of tests to work out sizes and speeds.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 19, 2018, 04:04:56 AM
Hi Art. Regarding the trouble with drilling larger drills. I mainly have issues with brass. Not really surprising. When drilling in the mill, I often have issues just as the bit breaks through to the other side. I've read in places that drilling brass may require a different set/type of drill. I'm not sure. I know when turning brass, the shape of the cutter is different than for other metals (i.e. flat).

I'd be interested in knowing if there's a method of drilling to reduce that problem. As in...as one gets close to breaking through, do you do something different?
For that matter...I need to learn more about rotational speed of the drill bit.

Cylinder is already faced to length and because of the step in the bore, it's a loss...other than it was useful to practice milling the curve.

@Chris...when you say 'every other fractional size'...that tells me every 1/32. No?

As for when chatter begins...(this has happened to me before)...think about the shape of a center drill. 60 degree angle and then to a straight, short, little bit. The problem seems to occur when the drill reaches the end of the angle and the straight bit begins. I'm not sure.

Good idea to run some tests. I have bits of brass that are too short to make anything out of but big enough to drill.

Ah. I see it's after 5 again.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 19, 2018, 04:07:26 AM
Does anyone have a favorite chart showing drill bit size versus rotational speed versus material type?
Or is there a general rule to go by?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on July 19, 2018, 04:27:25 AM
Yes, 32nds, in general. When breaking through I will slow the feed to keep it from grabbing. Even in the middle, feeding too fast can make it grab and stall. On narrow and/or deep holes, need to back out if chips are nit clearing. If you hear or feel it binding, could be a chip jam near the tip, which can overheat and stall things.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Kim on July 19, 2018, 05:23:38 AM
Yes, 32nds, in general. When breaking through I will slow the feed to keep it from grabbing. Even in the middle, feeding too fast can make it grab and stall. On narrow and/or deep holes, need to back out if chips are nit clearing. If you hear or feel it binding, could be a chip jam near the tip, which can overheat and stall things.
This is an interesting sub thread, Zee.

I've always done 1/16" steps or even 1/8" steps in drill sizes (in brass or otherwise).  I don't know if this is right or not, but I have used speeds something like:

190 RMP for 1/2" or larger
300 RPM for 1/4"-3/8"
480 RMP for <1/4"
800 RMP for 1/16"
1500 RMP for really tiny stuff

Not exactly that, but something like this.  I've not done a lot of tiny trilling on the lathe. That's mostly mill. And most big stuff tends to be on my lathe - before boring.

Do these speeds seem reasonable to all you experienced machinists?  I'm just doing what I feel I've heard (slower for bigger, faster for smaller) and what has worked for me in the past.

Kim
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: 10KPete on July 19, 2018, 05:26:21 AM
Would someone please find a pic or description of how to flat the cutting edges on a drill to make it suitable for brass, acrylic, etc.???

I can't find the pic I thought I had and I can't seem to come up with the right words...

Pete
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Stuart on July 19, 2018, 06:16:47 AM
Zee
Did you back off the dril for brass ie rub the cutting edge with a slip stone to take off the sharp edge.

I have two sets one ground for brass /gunmetal. And another for everything else
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Jasonb on July 19, 2018, 07:28:55 AM
Zee if you think you may be drilling something that is going to snatch in the mill don't use the quill levers but instead use the fine feed. If the drill grabs it will pull itself down when hand feeding but the fine feed helps to prevent this.

Another option is to use a milling cutter to open up the hole, the higher helix angle is less likely to snatch.

I've never stoned a drill and don't seem to get many snatches.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on July 19, 2018, 01:33:57 PM
Pete, see if this helps...

http://handycrowd.com/drilling-brass-the-easy-and-safe-way/

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 19, 2018, 02:10:36 PM
Thanks everyone.

@Kim...well that tells me I've been running at way too high of RPM.
@Stuart...I didn't modify my drill bits. Along with Bill's post of that helpful video, I'll have to try it.

@Jason...you remind me of something I noticed yesterday when I was squaring up the brass using an end mill. Using the built-in DRO, I would change the quill setting and make a pass. I noticed the DRO would change by 3-4 thou as cutting began. Both the quill and Z axis were locked down.

BTW: When using the fine feed on the quill, I have to make two turns of the fine feed knob before the DRO starts changing. Unusual?
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on July 19, 2018, 02:12:08 PM
Thanks Bill for that great tip.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Jasonb on July 19, 2018, 02:53:53 PM
Something not right there Zee the DRO should change almost straight away, slight delay possible going from one direction to the other is to be expected due to backlash.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: mklotz on July 19, 2018, 03:03:18 PM
1)  You shouldn't be using a center drill; it's the wrong angle for a twist drill.  Use a spotting drill with an included angle near that of a twist drill, typically 118 degrees.

2) For brass, grind small 90 deg flats on the drill cutting edges so it scrapes. Ideally, you should have a whole set of "brass drills" ground this way.

3) Pilot drill the size of the drill core, the central part that doesn't cut because it has no clearance.

4) Below about 5/8 hole size, drill final size.  Drilling in tiny increasing increments is a recipe for chatter.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on July 19, 2018, 03:54:07 PM
Zee, I suspect you have some backlash in the quill and once the cutting starts it pulls the quill down by this amount. Shouldn't happen if the quill is locked so you may want to check that...maybe it isn't locking properly.

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: 10KPete on July 19, 2018, 04:09:43 PM
Pete, see if this helps...

http://handycrowd.com/drilling-brass-the-easy-and-safe-way/

Bill

Yes, that's it! Thanks for digging that up, Bill.

Pete
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 19, 2018, 04:19:33 PM
Something not right there Zee the DRO should change almost straight away, slight delay possible going from one direction to the other is to be expected due to backlash.

Further investigation seems to show it's all backlash before the DRO starts changing. I see the levers change but the quill doesn't start moving until I've turned the fine feed nearly two rotations.

Zee, I suspect you have some backlash in the quill and once the cutting starts it pulls the quill down by this amount. Shouldn't happen if the quill is locked so you may want to check that...maybe it isn't locking properly.

I'll check. Perhaps I'm not tightening enough. I suppose it's not unusual to see the DROs change by a few thou as I lock things down.

Marv...
Regarding center drill versus spotting drill: There seems to be two camps to this. I'd like to get a spotting drill but the ones I've found are a bit steep in price. (I should spring for one anyway...it would be used a lot.) When I visited Grizzly several weeks ago...the guy I talked to didn't know what a spotting drill is.

Regarding modifying drill bits: Another subject with two camps. But I intend to experiment.

I didn't understand item 3.

Regarding step drilling: Sigh. Another subject with two camps. I do recall having tried stepping. Once with success and once without. I'm not sure I would worry about chatter so long as in the last drill step, either there is no chatter or the reamer takes care of it.

Thanks everyone. This has proved very helpful.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Baner on July 19, 2018, 05:18:56 PM
The drill core Marv's referring to in point 3 is also known as the chisel edge - basically it's that flat bit at the point of the drill. Best practice, as Marv said, is to pilot/spot/center drill a hole just larger than the chisel edge. Same goes for step drilling. Each subsequent drill's chisel edge should just fit in the previous hole. Usually the reason you'd want to step drill rather than go final size has to do with machine rigidity and horse power. Going straight to finish size sometimes makes for a fairly heavy cut. Step drilling also a good idea if you're drilling a thin wall part or a part the chuck/vice doesn't have the best grip on.

That's the theory anyway.

Drilling in brass is a different story with unmodified drills. Personally I just go super easy with regular drills and swap to a boring bar as soon as one will fit. 

Dave.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 19, 2018, 06:25:45 PM
Thanks Dave. That helped.  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on July 19, 2018, 06:48:43 PM
As with many disciplines, there are multiple ways of doing almost anything, some better than others, some the same, getting multiple people to agree on all the plus/minuses is probably futile. In my case, for the way I work, and given no formal training in machining, I have one set of drills I use for everything, maybe I am not quite as productive or accurate as I would be if I made a second set for brass only, but considering that it would mean buying a whole 'nuther set of fractional, number, letter drills, that is not going to happen given that I am getting good results with one set. Maybe it would be worth it for certain larger size ones? Dont know, maybe I'll find out someday.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 19, 2018, 06:55:00 PM
Some success today. Could still go awry but we won't know for a couple of days...

1st Pic: Hub and spokes getting trimmed. I put the rim on the tail stock and by moving the carriage left I could trial fit the rim.
2nd Pic: Rim has a close fit. (Too close?)
3rd Pic: Rim loctited onto the spokes.

The question will be if there's sufficient hold. I did have to use a press arbor to seat the spokes the last few thou. I don't know if any loctite got into place.
Rim has a +/-7 thou wobble to it. I wasn't surprised because when I spun just the hub and spokes I could see a bit of wobble in the spokes.
I'm not sure if I could have done something about that. Perhaps some kind of jig when I threaded and loctited them on.

The hope is to face the one side, bring the rim diameter to size (near enough), and drill/ream for the crankshaft.
Then flip, hold by rim and face the other side. Also remove the parent stock (which should be fun).
The spokes will have a bit of wobble but I don't think it will matter much.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Jasonb on July 19, 2018, 06:58:16 PM
Zee I just went out to the Sieg mill I have that uses a similar fine feed to yours. I only need to move the front fine feed knob a degree or two in either direction before the DRO shows the quill moving so your whole two turns is way too much.

Out of interest if you lower the quill say 1/2" by the lever handle then tighten the central hub lock to engage the fine feed what happens to the fine feed knob is you then try to move the levers up and down? Does it move in and out from the front of the mill head? if so it needs adjusting.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Brian Rupnow on July 19, 2018, 06:59:59 PM
Crueby---I have to agree with you.--There are many ways to skin a cat!! I use the same drills for steel, aluminum, brass, and bronze, and haven't had a problem. Sometimes brass and/or bronze is "grabby"---You just have to be aware of that. I don't have any "spotting drills" I have half a dozen different size "center drills" that are used for centering and starting drills in both the lathe and the mill.---And yes, many times I start with a 1/4" diameter drill and move up incrementally by eights until I reach the size of hole I wanted. Non of this means that my way is right and anyone elses is wrong. Perhaps if I had served an apprenticeship in a machine-shop, I would do it differently.---Brian
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 19, 2018, 08:03:21 PM
Out of interest if you lower the quill say 1/2" by the lever handle then tighten the central hub lock to engage the fine feed what happens to the fine feed knob is you then try to move the levers up and down? Does it move in and out from the front of the mill head? if so it needs adjusting.

Interesting...

I put an external DRO under the quill.
Locked the central hub and started turning fine feed. Quill immediately started moving but the DRO didn't change for about 130 thou.
Release the hub, moved the quill down using the lever, locked the central hub and started turning fine feed. Quill immediately started moving but the DRO didn't change for about 12 thou. Rotating the fine feed in other direction, the quill immediately started moving but the DRO didn't change for about 130 thou.

In all cases, I saw the levers move as I moved the fine feed. Certainly, there's a small amount of backlash in the fine feed to the quill but that seems normal to me.
It's just the DRO that doesn't seem to change for quite a bit...depending on direction and whether the quill was already engaged.

I can't say it makes much sense to me. Fine feed to quill or level seems fine. It's the DRO?

I'll have to find a drawing of the head to see how it works.

Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Jasonb on July 19, 2018, 08:07:52 PM
Zee if the fine feed knob is too far out on it's shaft then you will get a lot of backlash.

Try what I said, with the quill lever on the left loose and the fine feed engaged move the quill levers up/down and see if the fine feed know is moving in and out.

The other thing to look at is everything tight and rigid where the DRO slider joins the quill.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 19, 2018, 08:12:07 PM
Found the DRO issue.
There's a bar that goes between the DRO (rail?) and the outside of the quill.
It was loose.
Tightened up two screws and was working much much better.
Will play some more with it to check it out.

Thanks for the help!  :ThumbsUp:

Just saw your post Jason. Now why couldn't you have suggested that last sentence 6 months ago?  :lolb:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Jasonb on July 19, 2018, 08:17:02 PM
Well at least you should be able to work to a better accuracy than +/- 1/8" now :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 19, 2018, 11:35:06 PM
Well at least you should be able to work to a better accuracy than +/- 1/8" now :LittleDevil:

You hurt me. You hurt me bad.

:lolb:

Even if you try to tell me you meant mm instead of ".  :lolb:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: john mills on July 19, 2018, 11:45:58 PM
for cutting brass a small flat so the cutting edge has no rake angle helps with the metal that has a tendency to grab .The flat only needs to be small.
The cutting speed from as an apprentice i based 1/2" did 500 rpm so 1/4 1000rpm  for mild steel so brass is much faster.ask your tool supplier for a chart .
Drilling in steps can cause problems only required when the machine can't drive the bigger drill or it is to hard
to to wind the handle so only required in large sizes .it often helps to have to push the centre of the drill into the material to stop grabbing and chattering.
The spotting drill is better in starting as there is no tip to break like a centre drill does.90degree point is the one to use the cutting needs to start with light load first and gradually increase ,if you use 118deg the whole cutting edge hits at once with full force  or load at the start.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 20, 2018, 12:16:02 AM
Thanks John.  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: 10KPete on July 20, 2018, 12:19:21 AM
Zee, here's a good example:

pAngKHIZgyA
I never, or rarely, 'step drill' anything or use pilot holes except in the most unusual situations.

Pete
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 20, 2018, 01:37:19 AM
Thanks Pete.  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 20, 2018, 01:39:15 AM
Despite Jason's help  :lolb: I got the flywheel done.

It runs true on the lathe. Will have to see how it goes once it's assembled in the model.

It's nice to have a success (or near success) once in a while.  ;D
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: propforward on July 20, 2018, 02:06:19 AM
Very nice! Great work.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on July 20, 2018, 02:13:31 AM
Zee, here's a good example:

pAngKHIZgyA
I never, or rarely, 'step drill' anything or use pilot holes except in the most unusual situations.

Pete
Pete - great video, I did not realize the modification was so small.

Zee - excellent looking wheel!
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on July 20, 2018, 02:17:47 AM
Nice looking flywheel Zee. I would call that a success for sure.

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: john mills on July 20, 2018, 02:20:38 AM
That picture shows the flat that is all that is required it only needs a little to make a difference.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: sbwhart on July 20, 2018, 07:07:20 AM
Despite Jason's help  :lolb: I got the flywheel done.

It runs true on the lathe. Will have to see how it goes once it's assembled in the model.

It's nice to have a success (or near success) once in a while.  ;D

That looks a good job.

Stew
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Jasonb on July 20, 2018, 07:17:56 AM
Well at least you should be able to work to a better accuracy than +/- 1/8" now :LittleDevil:

You hurt me. You hurt me bad.


Zee, I thought I was being kind to you by rounding the 0.130" DRO error down to 1/8" :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: kvom on July 20, 2018, 12:42:45 PM
I'm the same as Chris, one set of drills for everything.  For brass I've never had a need to step drill, but perhaps it's because I have larger machines.  I will generally ream if the target hole matches a reamer I own, otherwise bore.  I have a number of small boring bars but they are usually too short for a cylinder.  In any case, a cylinder bore diameter isn't often critical as long as the piston is turned to fit.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Steamer5 on July 20, 2018, 01:30:25 PM
Hi Zee,
 Every little step forward is progress & you are making them!!
Just caught up, I think I had a similar issue with the readout on my mill, cant remember   :old: how or what caused me to look into it but it was sorted just like you have!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 21, 2018, 12:03:58 AM
Thanks all.

Well today went relatively well...no doubt due to the loads of good advice I got.
Here's my report  ;D

I starting drilling with a 1/4" and went up by 1/16 from there until I got to about 29/64. (Yeah..I know that math doesn't work out.)
Most of the time it went great. Two observations...

1) Each time I drilled I could tell the brass was trying to pull the drill bit out of the tail stock. It helped if I fed a little faster but I didn't like doing that. That kind of tells me that the idea of having brass only bits may be a good idea.
2) At one point, with a larger drill bit, the system stalled. I was running about 300 RPM with a drill bit about 7/16 or slightly less. I think the speed was too low or my system can't provide the torque at that setting.

I finally got to a large enough diameter that my boring bar would fit. That went pretty well.
I bored until I was within about 1/64 then I reamed.

1st Pic shows the boring.
2nd Pic shows the reaming.
3rd Pic shows the outline I'm going for with a 0.500 bearing shaft in the bore. A little tight which I think is good at this point.

One last observation...which bothers me a bit...

I had squared the stock on the mill then went to the lathe. One would think (or I had thought) that if the stock was perfectly square then a facing operation of 1 thou would take 1 thou off the entire face. Not so. It took about 5 or 6 thou before the entire thing was faced. It was slightly worse when I flipped the part and face the other end.

I had squared the stock using a 3/4" end mill and was pleased to see the expected pattern of a trammed machine...in the X direction.
But I believe, the Y is off. By some significant amount given the size of the part is at most 1.375".

However, I'll be interested in anyone's thoughts on similar findings.

To me this means the bore is not square with the bottom of the part. I think this can be corrected when I put in the holes, ports, and shape the cylinder. Even if this takes a bit off the bottom, the pedestal can be raised to account for it.

If you can't tell...I'm somewhat chuffed (as they say).

One thing that bothers me...When I look at the end where the reaming started...it looks pretty decent. But at the other end I see a little grooving as if the boring bar was wider there and the reamer did nothing.

Foo. Maybe not so chuffed. Makes me think the tail stock is not in line.

Oh well. At this point (posting my results) I've been celebrating and I'll worry about that tomorrow.  ;D  :cheers:
Progress is progress and this was progress.
(Despite the fact that youngest daughter came over and she and wife insisted I join them in the pool. Slowed me down.)

I feel good and that's what matters.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 21, 2018, 12:07:03 AM
I don't know why the picture of the reamer doesn't show.
But at this point...I'm not even allowed to turn on a machine much less figure things out.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 21, 2018, 12:08:30 AM
Rats. And now the picture shows.

Apparently I am not in sync with today's technology...regardless that I'm an embedded systems engineer.

Good night.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on July 21, 2018, 12:49:20 AM
Sounds like some good progress was made Zee. Enjoy the evening and jump back in tomorrow.

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Kim on July 21, 2018, 01:08:36 AM
Well today went relatively well...no doubt due to the loads of good advice I got.
No doubt!  :lolb:

1) Each time I drilled I could tell the brass was trying to pull the drill bit out of the tail stock. It helped if I fed a little faster but I didn't like doing that. That kind of tells me that the idea of having brass only bits may be a good idea.
Or, that you were doing the right thing - feeding it in in a controlled way like this made it so the bit couldn't grab. Or, that when it tried to grab, it was held in place and not allowed to do the evil it wanted to.  I'd call that a win!

2) At one point, with a larger drill bit, the system stalled. I was running about 300 RPM with a drill bit about 7/16 or slightly less. I think the speed was too low or my system can't provide the torque at that setting.
Maybe.  Or maybe you were feeding in too fast and trying to carve off more metal than you had power to actually do?  Just a thought... I'm assuming you backed out and fed it in again, a little more slowly after that?

I had squared the stock on the mill then went to the lathe. One would think (or I had thought) that if the stock was perfectly square then a facing operation of 1 thou would take 1 thou off the entire face. Not so. It took about 5 or 6 thou before the entire thing was faced. It was slightly worse when I flipped the part and face the other end.

I had squared the stock using a 3/4" end mill and was pleased to see the expected pattern of a trammed machine...in the X direction.
But I believe, the Y is off. By some significant amount given the size of the part is at most 1.375".

However, I'll be interested in anyone's thoughts on similar findings.
Hmm... It does seem like something was out of square.  If the part was squared up when you started, and the machine is square, then I would expect that you'd take a nice skim off the end, as you said.

Is it possible that your block wasn't mounted squarely in the chuck?  Or that the jaws of the chuck aren't square with the Z-axis of the lathe?

If you can't tell...I'm somewhat chuffed (as they say).
As well you should be!

One thing that bothers me...When I look at the end where the reaming started...it looks pretty decent. But at the other end I see a little grooving as if the boring bar was wider there and the reamer did nothing.
Or maybe, the reamer got full of chips toward the end of the bore and that's what caused those gouges?
Just a thought, I don't really know.

Also, did you use some cutting oil for the reaming operation?  I've found that helps a lot.

Foo. Maybe not so chuffed. Makes me think the tail stock is not in line.
I'd still be chuffed!  It's good progress and WAY better than the first one, right?
The way I look at it is, I've got to leave room for me to do something better next time!  If it were perfect, where would I improve?

I feel good and that's what matters.
Yup, that's what matters!

Looking good, Zee!
Kim
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Brian Rupnow on July 21, 2018, 01:24:18 AM
There is no real guarantee that when you clamp something in the chuck jaws that it is going to be perfectly aligned on the rotational axis of the spindle. Seems weird, I know but that's the way it is. If you knew the face setting against the chuck was "square", a good practice is to tighten the chuck about 3/4 of what you normally would, then smack the exposed face with a dead blow hammer to seat the opposite end tight against the chuck face, then re-insert the chuck key and give it that last final grunt before you start machining.---Brian
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: john mills on July 21, 2018, 07:25:46 AM
speed  for 7/16 drill machinery hand book has 120    140 f p m  that is 1200 rpm so 300 is very slow.
for 7 /16 you should go strait in  taking only a 1/16"in dia the drill will want to grab dig in as you have found it
the metal in the centre of the hole helps hold the drill and you have to feed it in.and the flat can help but for a small step in size will be difficult to control .  The marks after reaming is the swaff the flutes will be full and begin
to tear ,oil helps but i would not try to take  1/64"on dia with a reamer on a 1/2" hole bore closer to the size.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Jo on July 21, 2018, 08:01:24 AM
One last observation...which bothers me a bit...

I had squared the stock on the mill then went to the lathe. One would think (or I had thought) that if the stock was perfectly square then a facing operation of 1 thou would take 1 thou off the entire face. Not so. It took about 5 or 6 thou before the entire thing was faced. It was slightly worse when I flipped the part and face the other end.

I had squared the stock using a 3/4" end mill and was pleased to see the expected pattern of a trammed machine...in the X direction.
But I believe, the Y is off. By some significant amount given the size of the part is at most 1.375".

However, I'll be interested in anyone's thoughts on similar findings.

Zee don't beat yourself up over this. In the future try to always face and bore a cylinder from the end that the piston rod goes in, while the cylinder is still mounted. That way you know that the piston and piston rod will be square to the bore. The other end doesn't matter if it is slightly out  :-X But you can true the other end up by holding the cylinder on a mandrel in the bore.

With a cylinder your reference to which everything else must be taken is the bore  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 21, 2018, 03:18:37 PM
Thanks everyone.

A couple of people mentioned the use of oil. I've had the understanding that oil is not used when machining brass. Are there certain operations with brass where oil is recommended?

I understood the bore is the reference and the (new) face is square to it. My comment was about the new face now not being square to the plane that sits on top of the pedestal. So when I mount the cylinder it may be tilted. Had I realized that may happen, I would have waited to finish that plane to dimension (using the bore as dimension). It may be that it will be close enough and if not then I can machine that plane to be true to the bore and remake the pedestal to get to the required height.

1200 rpm? Unless I move the belt, the lathe can't get there. Don't smaller diameter drills require even higher speeds? For boring I just set the speed until it feels/sounds right. Too high always seems to give me trouble. For reaming I also go slow.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: mklotz on July 21, 2018, 03:39:42 PM

...
1) Each time I drilled I could tell the brass was trying to pull the drill bit out of the tail stock. It helped if I fed a little faster but I didn't like doing that. That kind of tells me that the idea of having brass only bits may be a good idea.
...


Some idle thoughts on the matter of a set of brass drills...

Since they'll only be used on a soft metal, they don't have to be high quality steel.

Since their primary use will be bulk removal of material rather than precision hole sizing, they don't need to be highly accurate as to size.

Given the previous statement, you probably get away with not having letter or number size brass drills.  Use the closest fractional; you're going to bore/ream after drilling anyway.

Since you're going to intentionally dull them, they don't need to be well sharpened.

Harbor Freight sells a 29 piece fractional drill set (#62281) for $18.  It's actually decent.  I have one in my house repair tool carrier and it's held up well.  I wouldn't use them for precision work, I have high quality drills for that, but for household tasks they're fine.

So, my thinking is spend $18 for drills and maybe an hour or so putting a flat on the cutting edges and you're armed for most brass bulk removal tasks.

I haven't done this myself.  Using the fine feed works well for me for controlling drill grab in brass.

Another option for bulk removal is "drilling" with an end mill.  However, keeping an array of endmill sizes to match the fractional drills would get very expensive.  I think the drills are a better solution.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: john mills on July 21, 2018, 11:46:37 PM
smaller drills do like higher speeds but you can only use  the speeds you have. slow speeds for reaming is good.
A little oil on the reamer will help the swag not to scratch the fished surface.But best not to let the flutes fill with swaf. I have worked on cnc machines that would fit 400 mm dia and do 3600rpm and used coolant on metal bronze brass and white metal but cut teflon material dry.Bronze cut at 300 mph.The machine is closed in with the door shut even the swaf coming off needs to be closed in.  but you can't use sufficient coolant on your manual machine with out getting wet and making a mess so it is better dry.and at the speeds you can use its ok dry .if you can, coolant is good to use.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: steamer on July 21, 2018, 11:50:14 PM

...
1) Each time I drilled I could tell the brass was trying to pull the drill bit out of the tail stock. It helped if I fed a little faster but I didn't like doing that. That kind of tells me that the idea of having brass only bits may be a good idea.
...


Some idle thoughts on the matter of a set of brass drills...

Since they'll only be used on a soft metal, they don't have to be high quality steel.

Since their primary use will be bulk removal of material rather than precision hole sizing, they don't need to be highly accurate as to size.

Given the previous statement, you probably get away with not having letter or number size brass drills.  Use the closest fractional; you're going to bore/ream after drilling anyway.

Since you're going to intentionally dull them, they don't need to be well sharpened.

Harbor Freight sells a 29 piece fractional drill set (#62281) for $18.  It's actually decent.  I have one in my house repair tool carrier and it's held up well.  I wouldn't use them for precision work, I have high quality drills for that, but for household tasks they're fine.

So, my thinking is spend $18 for drills and maybe an hour or so putting a flat on the cutting edges and you're armed for most brass bulk removal tasks.

I haven't done this myself.  Using the fine feed works well for me for controlling drill grab in brass.

Another option for bulk removal is "drilling" with an end mill.  However, keeping an array of endmill sizes to match the fractional drills would get very expensive.  I think the drills are a better solution.


Excellent points Marv.   If you've never cut brass with a drill ground like this...you're missing out...it's SO much easier to deal with.

Dave
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 22, 2018, 03:02:37 AM
Was working on the (new) cylinder (again).  ;D
Busted a bit.  :cussing:
Cleaned shop.  ;D
Taking it easy.  :cartwheel:
Will be back.  :facepalm2:

Ideas on getting that bit of bit out are welcome.   :help:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on July 22, 2018, 03:21:31 AM
How big a bit how deep in, what is showing, assume into brass? Twist drill?
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Stuart on July 22, 2018, 06:00:35 AM
Zee

Did it squeal, if so it may have chip packed
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 22, 2018, 03:10:13 PM
Thanks guys.
Brass and twist drill.

I was drilling from one side of the cylinder to the other, through the exhaust port.
When the bit hit the exhaust port is when things went awry.
Looking back on it...it was very dumb.
The geometry was such that when the bit got to the port, it would be like drilling into half a hole.

In any case, this morning I lucked out. Apparently about an 1/8" of the bit was stuck at the very edge of the port but was shattered and I was able to pick it out.

I can continue my march of one step forward and two steps back.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on July 22, 2018, 11:48:22 PM
You can’t beat lucky. You brought up a great point of discussion on reaming the cylinder. I have heard many times to not “peck ream”, but, to poke it through in one go. However, I wonder at our ratio of depth vs. diameter, if it’s not best. In other words; clear the swarf. When your lathe stalled; did the motor quit or the belt slip?  I usually start with anywhere from a 1/16 to a 1/4” pilot hole and then either shoot straight to hole size or step up in half increments. I am happy to see you “climb back on the horse that threw you”. We’re getting there  8)

Cletus
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on July 23, 2018, 12:05:04 AM
Zee, when drilling are you using the side handle, drill press style?  As others mentioned, using the fine feed is much better on starting and breaking through, much finer control, no where near as much tendency to grab the new edge and pull forward like a coarse screw. I have much better luck drilling through on my sherline mill, with its vert screw feed, than on my drill peess with the side handles. Its slower, but better.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 23, 2018, 12:44:55 AM
Thanks.

@Cletus...I fell off the horse again. See below.
@Chris...I was using fine feed but because I had forgotten the port was there...I fed too fast.

Today was the usual story. Got the ports done, the holes drilled and tapped for the covers, the ports from the bore to the inlets, and the exhaust.
Just needed to trim away a bit and then the last operation was going to be milling the curve.
I was happy.
The usual story is the last, or 2nd to last operation goes to poo.
I became unhappy.

Took too much of a chunk when trimming and the part flew out of the vise with horrible marks along the face where a cover will be.
I went ahead and finished trimming. I'm hoping most of the marks will be carved away when I do the curve or hidden by the cover.

Bad story gets worse. I realized the face I made square to the bore isn't the one where the piston rod goes through.
I tried to see if it was okay...chucked it up in the 4-jaw, put a shaft in the bore and measured.
Looked cruddy but I'm not sure why.
I will wait and see how it goes. Could have been a bad chucking job...or nothing about my machine is square.

Tomorrow I will do the last operation (carving the curve) and set the thing aside.
If I have to do it over yet again...I don't want to do it now. It's been frustrating.

As is my habit...I look for the silver lining. This is only the 2nd attempt. 3rd time is charm. Beyond that...I may sell my machines.  ;D
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on July 23, 2018, 12:54:54 AM
1. Prototype
2. Refine prototype
3. Finished part
  :lolb: :lolb:
That’s my sequence of operations

Cletus
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 23, 2018, 01:24:39 AM
1. Prototype
2. Refine prototype
3. Finished part
  :lolb: :lolb:
That’s my sequence of operations

Yep. Pretty much sums things up.
I'm just glad it doesn't apply to all of my activities.  ;D
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 23, 2018, 10:29:08 PM
So here's the cylinder mangled part...

1st pic shows the set up for milling the curved section of the cylinder.
2nd pic shows one end of the cylinder, as well as the ports. I'm thinking decent.
3rd pic shows the reason I considered going away for a while.

Regarding the 1st pic...any suggestions on how best to obtain a good finish? My concern is rounding the edges where the cylinder covers go. A stick wrapped in sandpaper?

Regarding the 3rd pic...as you can see, there are three decent grooves going from the bore to the outside. It's possible the cylinder cover goes into the bore enough to block them but I'm not convinced. If the cylinder is usable, I'd like to keep it. The view-able surfaces aren't too bad. But I suspect I have other problems with it (that is, I'll be surprised if the bore is square to the face the piston rod goes through...or even square to the base).

Any thoughts on what I can do to plug those grooves? I'm thinking some kind of putty (JB?) and sand it down.

At some point I'll likely try again. But there's an old Phillips' Rule that states, "If the 3rd attempt fails, consider another job.".

 ;D
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: 10KPete on July 23, 2018, 10:37:53 PM
I would use files and abrasives to finish up that part. Then I'd very carefully figure out how to make both ends square with the bore. Then I would seriously consider filling any defects. I wouldn't trash the part, but go ahead and finish it.

If you make a spud to just fit the bore, leave a shoulder on it for the cylinder to bear against and leave the spud a bit short of the cylinder length so you can use a big washer and bolt to fix the cylinder on the spud. Then mount the spud in your four jaw, dialed in as close as you can.

Now you have complete control over that puppy!

Hang in there, Zee. The learning curve can be steep at times but the learning does continue!

 :cheers:

Pete
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on July 23, 2018, 11:04:21 PM
Like Pete said, files and/or sandpaper on the outside should do the trick. For the grooves, I would not depend on the cap lip to seal them, but a little automotive gasket goop should do the trick, then the paper gasket on top will have something to press against.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: propforward on July 23, 2018, 11:07:49 PM
But there's an old Phillips' Rule that states, "If the 3rd attempt fails, consider another job.".

 ;D

Absolutely not. No retreat - no surrender.

Finish it, it'll be an excellent engine.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 23, 2018, 11:18:51 PM
Thanks guys.

Your support means a lot.

I have to admit to a lot of frustration lately. In several areas of life.
Seems like few things are going well, or rather not meeting (baseless) expectations.

Don't get me wrong. None of this is 'serious'...it's just not what I expected and there's a bit too much of it.

And so I think about the silver lining...

a) Good friends
b) Got booze
c) Certainly T
d) Certainly kids
e) Got booze (did I say that already?)
f) Quit smoking! Finally! (Which BTW is part of the frustration. I enjoyed smoking.)
h) Got a shop!
i) Not worried about the alphabet.  ;D

You all know the drill...count your blessings.  ;D

Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on July 23, 2018, 11:33:07 PM
It definitely looks salvageable to me Zee. And yes it does get frustrating at times but keep that positive attitude and focus on the good things.

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on July 23, 2018, 11:49:31 PM
Just hang in there cowboy. I get your “alphabet” (f is the one I really need to work on: may take up the pipe to get off the sticks. Dad says a pipe gives you time to think about things and he is like Clinton, he doesn’t inhale  8). I’m wondering if you just haven’t gotten the “feel” of your new machines yet. Maybe just take some time to make some tools or fixtures and “become one with the machine Grasshopper” I feel your pain. I made four attempts at just turning some 3/4” round stock into 1/2” hex today; and I was using a hex collet block. Sh$t just happens and since our paycheck doesn’t depend on it, I laugh and go onwards. Have a hoppy and think on it; we’re here with you

Cletus
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 23, 2018, 11:52:38 PM
I’m wondering if you just haven’t gotten the “feel” of your new machines yet.

I don't doubt that's a part of it. I had the mini's for a some years...and enjoyed them.

I'm still angry at myself for selling them.  ;D

Thanks all.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Brian Rupnow on July 24, 2018, 12:06:34 AM
Zee--You got lucky--the visible screw up gets an end cap bolted to it to hide it. Nobody will ever know. If you feel that the grooves are too deep to seal the cylinder and cap properly--trowel on a bit of J.B. Weld. Lay a piece of #150 grit emery paper gritty side up on a nice clean cast iron table (I use the table on my vertical band-saw). Hold paper from moving with one hand. Place J.B. Welded end of cylinder against paper and go round and round (or back and forth) until you get clean brass everywhere but the grooves. As for how do you remove the ridges from the outside of the cylinder, do the same thing with the emery paper. Stroke the cylinder in a wiping motion at 90 degrees to the ridges left from machining. If you have a real big concern about how square the bore is to either end, you can cheat a bit by making your piston about .003" undersize and use a Viton ring on it. This will tolerate a bit of misalignment.---Brian
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 24, 2018, 01:01:49 AM
If you have a real big concern about how square the bore is to either end, you can cheat a bit by making your piston about .003" undersize and use a Viton ring on it. This will tolerate a bit of misalignment.---Brian

Hee hee. You've been where I'm hoping to go...if I have to.  ;D
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Art K on July 24, 2018, 03:19:33 AM
Zee,
What Brian says. Put a c-clamp  on one side of the paper and a thumb on the other, sand as appropriate. Could you face some of the face off and make the end cap the same amount longer?
Art
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Steamer5 on July 24, 2018, 04:22:02 AM
Hi Zee,
 Well BUGGER!
Keep at it you’ll beat it!

As a thought you can always put the cylinder on a nice fitting mandrel, check out Joe’s channel...

J1RFTRzuAcU

He has a pretty neat way of doing it. That way you can skim the ends square, & on the visually enhanced end, you can always turn it down until it looks boring like the other end & add a bit on to bring it back to size......

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Stuart on July 24, 2018, 07:40:02 AM
Zee

DLTBGYD

Now a bit advice get a length of aluminium bar same size are the cylinder chop it up in a few blanks and practice

Use the same bits to practice making a cube test with a square see if it meets your standard
How did the groves on the end happen did it pull out of the vice ( more grunt on the vice ) did the cutter pull out

As from you programming past analyse the problem find the cause then apply a fix

Workshop rule number 1 ( I am dyslexic so letters are no good ) bozo the clown 🤡 will come out to play on the last op for a part


Don’t forget we all had to learn at first even if you were knee high to a grasshopper standing by your dad/mom at a lathe whatching them work , you will succeed I have no doubt about that ,above all enjoy it ,it’s a hobby after all it’s ment to relax you
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: john mills on July 24, 2018, 08:48:12 AM
if you set the cal up again in the 4 jaw chuck and bore aconter bore with a lead into the bore like full size engines have you would nearly clean up the marks in the edge of the bore ,the spigot a push fit would help seal the bore
with a lille sealant it would seal,the other marks will be coved with the cyl cover.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 24, 2018, 02:27:39 PM
Thanks everyone. Some very interesting ideas!

@Stuart: The cylinder got pulled out of the vise. When I had the mini-machines, I had a tendency to over-tighten. I made impressions on the mill table or crushed parts. With the new machines I've tried to be more careful and it appears the pendulum has swung too far the other way.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Stuart on July 24, 2018, 03:40:46 PM
Zee

With ref to your last post get yourself some thin brass about 1/32 inch thick or 1 mm and cut it up into small pieces as you need it put it under the hold down clamp and the bed ( not of course the tee nuts ) this will protect the bed you can also use it to protect the work  in the vice /vise

Alternative softening get some aluminium flashing form you home depo cheaper than brass

What do I use both of them , a good firm pull on the vice/vise handle should hold things ok

If that happened I am surprised the cutter survived

Now this may sound the wrong way to go but make sure you run the cutters fast enough , 6mm carbide in the manual mill 1800 rpm eg flat out in the CNC mill 3900 , but note in the manual mill it’s conventional cutting in the CNC it’s climb milling


Try a slip of printer paper in the vice/vise jaws and the brass part you will get a better grip brass is slippery same with bronze that’s why we use it as a bearing
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 24, 2018, 11:04:37 PM
Thanks Stuart!  :ThumbsUp:

I got the steam chest and steam chest cover done today.

I'm not sure I did things in the right order...but I started with machining the boss? end? thingie? that the valve rod goes through.
If I'd done the inside first, my concern was being able to hold onto something.

1st Pic shows the start of machining the thingie the valve rod goes through.
2nd Pic shows it 'done'. Still to do the drilling/reaming for the rod and threading of the nut.
3rd Pic shows the steam chest and cover. (That's the 2nd cover actually. When I was milling the recess...I went too far.)
4th Pic shows a partial assembly.

The steam chest is a tad too long towards the valve rod end. Not too bad. I believe it's because I measured for the mounting holes from the wrong reference.
Won't be noticeable once the model is put together. There'll be plenty of boo-boos to distract from.

Pay no attention to the socket head cap screws.

You might notice the green aluminum shims. "Rolling Rock". Used to be drink-able but I wish I'd gotten some Amstel Light.

Just a heads up...I may be temporarily closing shop before the engine is complete.
I've made one engine, started another, and pursued some other hobbies in my 'new' shop which has shown me that some changes/improvements are needed.
Most aggravating is the swarf. I can't allow anyone in the shop because I track it all over the place.
In addition, there's some wasted space and I'm thinking of an HO train system in a corner.
I'm thinking of getting the mill and lathe closer together and providing a 4' wall around them so I can contain the swarf to a smaller area.
The mill is against a wall so the 4' wall really applies to the lathe.
Changing shoes on entering/exiting.

You might wonder about the HO train system...
We (or I anyway) go from diapers to toys to girls...then from girls to toys to diapers.
I seem to be in entering the 2nd toy phase.  ;D

But going back to the thingie through which the valve rod goes. A question.
I drilled undersize and then reamed to 1/8". But I find that the 1/8" shaft has a little bit of wobble.
My suspicion (given the rod is 1/8") is that my reamer is a tad oversize.
In fact, I think my cheap reamer set is all over the place.
My question though...when do you ream undersize?
On the other hand...it could be that there's not a whole lot of steam chest to hold the rod for any real length.
I'm just wondering if what I'm seeing is 'normal'.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on July 24, 2018, 11:12:36 PM
Things are already looking up Zee. Just keep after it. Keep us informed on the HO trains too.

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on July 24, 2018, 11:18:25 PM
I ain’t getting into the diaper regression  :facepalm:. The swarf is just part of it and I have seen this problem with several folks having a “really nice shop”. I wear one pair of  dedicated shoes, an apron, and designated shop britches. All of the above are either changed before I leave the shop or before I enter the house. Reamers are almost a black art. Some go over, some under, some as marked. You almost need to “sample one” before you use it. Another thing a lot fail to realize, is, never bottom a reamer. Once that flat end hits the bottom of the hole, it wants to start doing a “hoola hoop” move and will most always ream oversize. Ok I’ll shut up now  8)

Cletus
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on July 24, 2018, 11:27:43 PM
For swarf, I have been in the habit of using the shop vac on the machine, bench, me, and floor after each session before walking away, having a door mat helps get stuff off the bottom of the shoes too. Fly cutters are the worst, really throwing swarf a long way.


A leather apron helps keep it out of your clothes too. I got one made for wood turners. Also tape a rectangle of thin plexi on the front of the mill to block the throwback. On the lathe, bent a piece 90 degrees and have a couple bolts on the cross sdlie to hold it.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 24, 2018, 11:58:31 PM
Another thing a lot fail to realize, is, never bottom a reamer. Once that flat end hits the bottom of the hole, it wants to start doing a “hoola hoop” move and will most always ream oversize.

That could have been it. Thanks Eric!  :ThumbsUp:

As for the swarf...not a problem for the shop. I do sweep and vacuum quite often as well. No...it's more that I'm thinking of making a shop within a shop so people can freely come in and enjoy the possibilities. (Actually...more so that my grand-daughter can come in...see some cool stuff...and get perhaps interested...or at least get some memories.)

It's all about allowing people to come in without worrying about stepping on bits of metal. (And I always remember that bit of brass that got stuck in my finger and produced a nice blister. Grand-daughter runs around here without shoes on.)

Keep in mind...my shop (such as it is) is almost 4 shops in one. Machining, modeling, electronics, and office.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on July 25, 2018, 12:37:53 AM
Just a thought: check with Otto, he seems to machine sans swarf  :lolb:

Cletus
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Dave Otto on July 25, 2018, 01:06:39 AM
Smoke and mirrors my friends, smoke and mirrors. :lolb:

My mill and lathe are in the garage literally 6 feet from the door into the house and I manage. I do have a very understanding and tolerant wife though.
If I'm busy making a mess and she comes through I always stop what I'm doing and sweep a path through the swarf for her. :Lol:

Dave
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 25, 2018, 01:24:54 AM
Just a thought: check with Otto, he seems to machine sans swarf  :lolb:

Good suggestion until I read this...

Smoke and mirrors my friends, smoke and mirrors. :lolb:

Sigh. It seems my list of members I can depend on...as compared to jokers...is in the noise.
All are honest, to be sure.
Honest jokers.  :lolb:

Keep in mind...one can depend on jokers too.
Some of them anyway.  ;D
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on July 25, 2018, 02:25:59 AM
Reminded me of this Zee

nMN4JZ8crVY
Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Art K on July 25, 2018, 03:23:03 AM
Zee,
If you're worried about it being loose you can always complicate life more and bush it. :mischief: My shop is in the back of a detached garage, and complicates life if I need to make a software adjustment. Especially if I'm home alone due to the locked door to the house. My next project is to build a surround around the mill base. You wouldn't believe where those flycutter chips end up, but then again, yeah you would. The finished parts look good Zee.
Art
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 25, 2018, 03:52:12 AM
Thank's Art.

Bill... :lolb: :lolb:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: gary.a.ayres on July 25, 2018, 06:14:46 AM
I just kind of flap at myself with my hands to get the swarf off.
It's a primitive and fairly ineffective technique.
My lady is fairly tolerant, but she does tend to be unimpressed when swarf ends up in the bed. I tell her it's only aluminium, but that doesn't seem to help.
Am I doing something wrong...?

 :)
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: gary.a.ayres on July 25, 2018, 06:15:51 AM
Steam chest looks good!
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 26, 2018, 12:56:53 AM
Thanks Gary. Brushing off the body isn't so much a problem as the stuff that adheres to the sole.

I was reading Thomas's thread on installing the DROs onto his new mill and the drilling/tapping adventures he had.
It made me think about taps again.

Taper, Plug, Bottoming. For some sizes...not all 3 seem available...or not at a price I'm comfortable with.

Lately...in brass...I haven't bothered with anything but bottoming. Seems to work just fine.

So what's the deal? Why bother with a taper tap at all?
Is it all about getting it straight?
Why not plug then bottom?
Or just go to bottom?
Or is it the quality of taps I'm getting? Some of the bottom taps look chamfered for 2, if not 3, threads?

Just something whirling around in the old head.

Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on July 26, 2018, 01:13:21 AM
Good questions. I have been using the taper ones, assumed that it would start straighter (experience show mostly -er, not always straight). Found that if I need it bottom tapped, it works fine to follow the taper with one of the broken off taper taps I kept. Works fine for the couple of threads.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 26, 2018, 01:31:56 AM
I should be a a bit more clear. Threading into a blind hole would certainly seem to call for a bottoming tap at some point.
Threading into a through hole...not so sure. A bottoming tap isn't necessary (unless there's not enough space for the tap to get through it all.)
I guess I'm questioning the need for a full set of taps.
Isn't a plug and bottoming tap enough?
What does a taper tap bring to the party?

Speaking of parties...less than a week to Jo's retirement party.  :pinkelephant:

For Eric...and less than 24 hours to my next (nightly) "I"m retired party!".


Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on July 26, 2018, 02:03:38 AM
Did I miss something Zee. Did Jo announce her retirement and I missed it??

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 26, 2018, 02:19:51 AM
Did I miss something Zee. Did Jo announce her retirement and I missed it??

I can't address whether you missed something Bill... ;D

I believe Jo is retiring the 31st, next Tuesday.

I intend to party that day regardless.

P.S. Check the shout area.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Dave Otto on July 26, 2018, 02:46:04 AM
I guess I missed it too?

Dave
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on July 26, 2018, 02:54:56 AM
Ah yes, I don't normally have that turned on. Now we can focus on Cletus  :whoohoo:

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Kim on July 26, 2018, 04:54:48 AM
Hi Zee,

For cutting taps, you can get a three types of taps (plug, taper, and bottoming) for reasonable prices from Victor: https://www.victornet.com/subdepartments/HS-Hand-Taps-NC-and-NF/1250.html (https://www.victornet.com/subdepartments/HS-Hand-Taps-NC-and-NF/1250.html)

I'm sure they're low cost import taps, but I've used them and my experience has been OK.
I prefer the forming taps.  I feel that you have more support for the whole tap w/o the flutes, and I've broken far fewer of them (though I have broken one before). Victor doesn't sell form taps.

Kim
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 26, 2018, 05:02:33 AM
Thanks Kim! I hadn't come across them before
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Jasonb on July 26, 2018, 07:02:26 AM
The taper tap will remove the metal is several shallow depth cuts eg it takes about 6 turns until cutting fill depth, a plug will try to take it all of in one go so meeds more effort which with a small tap can break it.

If you are tapping straight after drilling so the spindle is above the hole then the Spiral Flute taps are good as they bring the swarf up out of the hole so no risk of packing it in around the tap, one will do as they only have a short lead taper.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Engineering/Robbie/DSC02923_zps5j4tvl5u.jpg)

Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: steamer on July 26, 2018, 11:05:32 AM
And don't forget the Gun tap,   It is fantastic for through holes, especially in tough materials, as it pushes the chips forward ahead of the tap

( do an image search and you'll see what I mean.     2 flute)

Dave
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: kvom on July 26, 2018, 12:28:03 PM
Or you could use form taps that create no swarf at all.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 26, 2018, 01:45:45 PM
The taper tap will remove the metal is several shallow depth cuts eg it takes about 6 turns until cutting fill depth, a plug will try to take it all of in one go so meeds more effort which with a small tap can break it.

I should have realized that.

The spiral taps look interesting.

Whew...loads of choices.

@Kirk: Form taps would require more effort right? How are they in 303 stainless?
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Kim on July 26, 2018, 02:43:23 PM
I would think form taps would work just fine in 303.  Here's a little blurb from the MSC site on the form taps (I added the red highlighting).
Kim

Quote
Where to Use Thread Forming Taps
Materials particularly well suited for thread forming include aluminum, brass, copper, lead, stainless steel, carbon steel, cast steel, leaded steel and zinc. In general, any material which produces a stringy chip is a good candidate for cold forming threads. If the chips are powdery, the material may be too brittle. Forming taps generate threads without producing chips. The threads produced are much stronger than those created by cut taps because of the displacements of the grain of the metal in the workpiece. Cutting taps produce chips which may interfere with the tapping process.

Thread forming taps are also known as: Fluteless Taps, Roll Taps & Cold Forming Taps.

Major Advantages to Thread Forming
1. Chipless Tapping – no chip removal problems in blind holes
2. Stronger Threads – the grain flow of formed threads follows the contour of the thread in steel and stainless steel, resulting in greater thread strength
3. Better Thread Gaging – forming taps create their own lead therefore the possibility of producing oversized threads is greatly reduced
4. Stronger Taps – the absence for the need for flutes results in a stronger more solid tap
5. Longer Tap Life – forming taps last 3 to 20 times longer because they have no cutting edge to dull
6. More Efficient Production – longer tap life, less tap breakage and faster tapping speeds (up to 2x faster than cutting taps)
7. Ideal for Non-Lead Screw Tappers – The ability to form their own lead makes forming taps well suited for NC machines or other machines without lead screws

Guidelines For Using Thread Forming Taps
Pre-Tap Hole Size - Thread forming taps require a larger pre-tap hole size than a cutting tap. Tapping with too small of a pre-tap hole size results in excessivetap wear, torque and possible tap breakage
Lubrication - Forming Taps require good lubrication. Cutting oils are generallypreferred because of their lubricity compared to water soluble coolants
Styles - Standard, pipe and STI
https://www.mscdirect.com/basicsof/thread-forming-taps (https://www.mscdirect.com/basicsof/thread-forming-taps)
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 26, 2018, 04:18:43 PM
Thanks Kim. That's interesting and helpful.

I'd be interested in what other people think too.
Given the advantages, why wouldn't forming taps be the go to taps?
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on July 26, 2018, 04:39:56 PM
I think it’s kinda moving that way Zee.

Cletus
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Jasonb on July 26, 2018, 04:44:38 PM

Given the advantages, why wouldn't forming taps be the go to taps?

The first line of the MSC guide says why. You need a material that will deform when the tap is used so a ductile metal is what they work best on. No good for cast iron for example. So people buy standard taps that will work in all metals first and then may add other types later on.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 30, 2018, 11:04:32 PM
Shutting down the shop for a while. I need to re-arrange it so I have better control over the swarf (or rather the 'people' that visit my shop).
Besides re-arranging...it's way over time to do some adjusting of the machines. They are close but not close enough.
One thing that bothers me is a clacking noise coming from the mill. It didn't used to be there. In fact, it used to be hard to hear the mill was running. No longer.

In the meantime...a few questions...

Given forming taps don't produce swarf...what are the thoughts on tapping under power?

I had some questions on another thread that no one addressed. I don't mean to express any dissatisfaction...I think my post got buried.

On the mill, I have two locks per axis (except the quill)...

1) Is it sufficient to lock just one down? I ask because sometimes the other lock is hard to get at.
2) How hard is too hard? I've had problems not locking hard enough but I fear I'm damaging the gibs. Thoughts?
3) I'd like a different solution for the locks on the Y axis. They are hinged type...pretty loose...and often either dig into the base or hit a bolt that attaches the base to the table. I try to set them (when loose) so they are are 90 to the table...but vibration will cause them to turn a bit and then fall down.

Similar questions on the lathe when it comes to the compound or cross slide. One screw for locking?

Very newbie questions...but regardless whether you think I am or not (and I am...still)...there are many out there who are.
All I ever see on the net or the forum are references to 'lock the axis down' but not very much information on how or how much.

Thanks.

It's too bad I can't get a job as a newbie at my age. Just a part time job would do. It might take off that feeling that I should be doing something useful.
Problem is...I promised myself that retirement meant "Not having to be at any particular place at any particular time.".

Methinks I've screwed myself.  :lolb:
A very common occurrence.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Brian Rupnow on July 30, 2018, 11:35:21 PM
Zee--Can't say much about tapping under power. 99% of the taps I use are 3/16" and under, and I wouldn't dream of using them "under power". As for locks on the X and Y axis, I generally lock only one. You can't lock them too hard as long as you aren't using a wrench. Check out the locks and see if they are the type which can be pushed in by hand to disengage them from the threaded portion and turned to whatever angle you want them to be at. Lots of mills have that function and people aren't aware of it. On compound and cross slide, yes, only one lock for locking them. You won't damage the gibs. As for the clacking noise--Could be a damaged gear tooth, could be a spindle bearing, could be damned near anything.---Brian
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 30, 2018, 11:45:16 PM
Thanks Brian!
The locks you describe are the ones on the X and Z and like you say...can be pulled back and put in whatever angle will keep them out of the way.
Not so for the Y...it seems.
As for the mill...I'm hoping it's something that got in the gear/belt train. Perhaps a piece of that 3D printed spindle stop (that I keep forgetting about and turning on the mill anyway). Otherwise...I'm hoping for a gear rather than a bearing.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Brian Rupnow on July 30, 2018, 11:48:57 PM
x and y are horizontal. z axis is vertical.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 31, 2018, 12:08:21 AM
x and y are horizontal. z axis is vertical.

Yes, I know. It may be I miss-spoke.

Attached picture are the Y locks that I'm talking about.
You can see what I mean by 'hinged'.
You can barely see the 2nd one further back.

You can also see that nice scrape near the bolt where the lock handle was digging in.
That happens, or it collides with the bolt, when I release the lock and move in Y.
It's all loose, so even if I try to set the handle at 180 to the table...it can move and slip down into the base or bolt.

I either need to know how to do this so that collisions don't happen, or install a different lock handle where this is mitigated.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Brian Rupnow on July 31, 2018, 12:18:22 AM
Okay--I gotcha, and see what you mean. The locks on my x and y axis aren't hinged, so they don't flop like yours do. At BusyBee tools where I bought my lathe and mill, they have two or three different styles of lock handle. If you bought your mill from one of the places that stocks mills and lathes it might be worth going there and having a look at what other styles of lock handles they have. Just be aware--they will be a metric thread if your mill is from "off-shore".
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on July 31, 2018, 12:22:50 AM
I can see where that would be problematic, especially when milling in the Y axis. Might could swap them out for the ones like on the other two :shrug:. It actually doesn’t do much harm to leave them just “just lightly nipped up”; i.e. just when you feel contact without tightening.

Whiskey
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 31, 2018, 01:23:17 AM
It actually doesn’t do much harm to leave them just “just lightly nipped up”; i.e. just when you feel contact without tightening.

That may be the answer. I had always worried about wear but maybe not so much an issue. Thanks.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: 10KPete on July 31, 2018, 01:50:31 AM
Take 'em out, smack 'em with a hammer to squeeze the fork tighter on the blade enough that they'll stay where you put 'em.
Or take 'em apart, mill the slot a bit wider and reassemble with a wave washer.

Pete
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 31, 2018, 02:06:18 AM
Take 'em out, smack 'em with a hammer to squeeze the fork tighter on the blade enough that they'll stay where you put 'em.
Or take 'em apart, mill the slot a bit wider and reassemble with a wave washer.

Also an interesting idea. Thanks Pete.

But I am wondering if anyone else has these type of locks.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Art K on July 31, 2018, 02:12:07 AM
Carl,
If the fold over gib tightening screws are a problem you could probably replace them with a normal SHCS. Then you just need a handy allen wrench. My wife suggested a pair of $1 flip flops that the grand children must put on to enter. Sell it to them as safety, then move on to safety glasses.
Art
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 31, 2018, 02:29:01 AM
My wife suggested a pair of $1 flip flops that the grand children must put on to enter. Sell it to them as safety, then move on to safety glasses.

Interestingly, the grandchild knows not to enter without shoes. It's the grown-ups I have to worry about.

Probably because grown-ups think they know everything. Ha!

P.S. If grand-child comes in to watch a machining operation...she gets a full face mask.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Art K on July 31, 2018, 03:27:00 AM
Ah yes adults, they don't know that they don't know any better.  :lolb:
Art
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Steamer5 on July 31, 2018, 07:00:37 AM
Hi Zee,
I brought an Eccentric Enginnering tool sharpener. It has these..... Gary sent me this link to the ones he use...

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/231696707291?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Theses more sizes if you click the tool machine accessory button

I asked because I too had locked up the x axis, then in a. :old: moment just cranked the table handle & broke the handle on the lock in half.....they say confession is good for the sole. Now these little handles are sprung loaded so you can just kinda lift them & index by the hex of the bolt. As has been said, check as to the thread you have.

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: kvom on July 31, 2018, 12:28:10 PM
The X-axis lock on my Bridgeport is just a SHCS with a rod cross drilled in the head to provide leverage for fingers.  I never have to turn it too tight.  I rarely need to lock the Y axis.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: mklotz on July 31, 2018, 02:56:34 PM
I have/had hinged locks like that on my mill/drill.  They didn't have the interference problem you have but they were awkward to reach.  Since I like to lock any unused axis when using the mill, the awkwardness was annoying.

I made a rod with a thread on the end that matched the lock thread.  To this I attached an orthogonal handle at the end.  This arrangement means that, when I want to lock Y, I simply drop my right hand, grab the convenient handle and pull up.  Very easy.

You may want to do something similar, although for different reasons.  Move the orthogonal actuator out beyond the shelf with which they currently interfere.

BTW...

I'm with Brian on the power tapping.  I wouldn't dream of attempting to power tap the typically tiny taps used on miniature engines.

Think about it... How much of your time is saved power tapping the twenty or thirty tapped holes on an engine compared with the time it takes to make a new cylinder or whatever because you broke off a tap in the first one?  (I won't compromise my standards and "hide" broken taps with fake bolts, etc..)

Now, if you're going to tap a lot of bigger holes in something like a fixture plate or tilting table, by all means buy the form tap. In that case, the time savings will be major and the chance of a broken tap minor.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 31, 2018, 03:06:21 PM
Thanks Kerrin. The star handled knobs look interesting.
Thanks Kirk. That's helpful.
Thanks Marv. Good point on power tapping. I'd be interested in a pic of your locking mechanism. It sounds like you only move the handle a short distance to go between locked and released.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: mklotz on July 31, 2018, 03:51:19 PM
The orthogonal handle has a sleeve that can be tightened in any orientation onto the threaded rod that engages the table lock.  I nip up the rod to "just short of locked" and orient the handle downwards.  In this position, raising the handle by ~30 degrees fully locks the table.  Tapping the handle makes it fall downwards to rest on a table, thus releasing the table lock.

But don't think you need to duplicate my arrangement.  It's the concept of moving the actuator that matters.  Analyze your geometry and design your own.

Forming taps...

Jason has already mentioned that thread-forming taps are really only useful on ductile metals.  Cast iron is out of the question.  I'd be interested to know how much torque is required to drive one through steel.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Roger B on August 02, 2018, 08:33:34 AM
Still following the banter and occasional machining  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:  :wine1: Keep up the good work  :)
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Jasonb on August 03, 2018, 07:37:53 AM
Zee you could try what are known as "Bristol Levers" over here and also called "ratchet lever handles", both mills in my workshop have them. The lever can be set at any angle when in the "lock" position and then just a small turn to loosen them enough to move the table. I have just put some video on ME forum showing some basic cuts if you look at those you will see me using the levers and how quick and simple they are to use. Currently bottom of this page

https://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=131318&p=2#PostTop

For power tapping you really want an easy way to start-stop-reverse the mill, some have a tapping function and buttons on the quill lever that make this easy and the electronic braking is set up so the spindle stops almost instantly. If not I would suggest using taps where the shank above the teeth is reduced to less than the thread core dia so that you won't overrun and jam the tap in the hole.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 03, 2018, 02:31:57 PM
Thanks Marv and Roger.
Thanks Jason. The 'ratchet lever handles' are what's on all the other axes. If it only takes a small amount of rotation to go between lock and release then that should work for X as well. But if the rotation is small enough then Marv's idea is very appealing.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on August 03, 2018, 03:30:39 PM
If you wanna be really “cost efficient “ you can knock the pin out of the handle that’s there, drill a hole in the center of the piece that’s digging in and reinstall. Won’t dig in and still enough leverage to tighten the axis

Whiskey
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Jasonb on August 03, 2018, 03:36:36 PM
Or just round the end over.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 03, 2018, 04:05:38 PM
@Eric: I'm not sure I understand where the hole to be drilled is supposed to be.
@Jason: While that should stop the digging in, the handle sometimes comes up against the bolt head holding the base to the table.

P.S. @Eric: There's 'money cost efficiency' and 'aggravation cost efficiency'.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on August 03, 2018, 04:13:49 PM
In other words, make a “T” handle using the parts that are there. Just move the hole to the longitudinal center of the flat handle part

Whiskey
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Mosey on August 04, 2018, 01:11:57 PM
"Materials particularly well suited for thread forming include aluminum, brass, copper, lead, stainless steel, carbon steel, cast steel, leaded steel and zinc. In general, any material which produces a stringy chip is a good candidate for cold forming threads. If the chips are powdery, the material may be too brittle. Forming taps generate threads without producing chips. The threads produced are much stronger than those created by cut taps because of the displacements of the grain of the metal in the workpiece. Cutting taps produce chips which may interfere with the tapping process.

Thread forming taps are also known as: Fluteless Taps, Roll Taps & Cold Forming Taps. "


Quoted above is from MSC catalog for Balax taps.
Mosey (Still kicking) :old:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on August 04, 2018, 01:35:45 PM
Good to see you Mosey :)

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 06, 2018, 10:58:34 PM
Mosey (Still kicking) :old:

Good to see you Mosey.
Thanks Eric.

Well I got my machines and benches moved but the shop re-arrangement is not done. I'll get pictures when I'm a bit more proud of my work.  ;D
Mainly I'm thinking of either a half-wall of plywood or perhaps a curtain to separate the machines from the rest of the shop in order to better control the swarf.
I have to get some shoes too so I can swap as I go from one area to another.
I'm not sure this will work but it will be better than I had.

As a side note...I apparently have taught my grand-daughter well. She came by the other day and stood outside my shop rather than tromping in.
She kicks her shoes off when she comes to the house and I'd warned her that the metal on the floor in my shop would/could hurt her.

That's not to say I hadn't been doing a little carving...

I worked on the crankshaft supports. Pic attached.
The left one took quite a bit of file work and while it's functional (and somewhat acceptable given my filing skills), I knew while working on it that there had to be a better way. But I thought it was close enough (for now) and continue.

But when I started on the other one, I realized I had made a non-recoverable mistake. That one differs from the other in that it has to have a bit of metal off to the side to connect to the crosshead guide. But I had removed too much metal in the first place and wouldn't have enough to connect.

So I will redo the parts. Which is okay because...

Going back to 'the better way'...I worked on my CAD drawing and figured out a way to minimize, if not remove the filing work. So I'm looking forward to redoing these parts.
It's mostly rotary table work and the DRO is going to make things a whole lot easier.

I say that knowing that it usually takes 3 tries to get what I want and this is only the 2nd attempt.  ;D
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on August 07, 2018, 12:06:52 AM
When I had my mill on an island table in the middle of the room, I put up some plexi sheets in a U around it to catch the flying chips, worked pretty well. It was held with wood blocks at the corners, and was not attached to the table so I could shift it to the side if needed for long parts.

The reject holders look like little people - turn them into figures for the kids?
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 07, 2018, 12:15:13 AM
When I had my mill on an island table in the middle of the room, I put up some plexi sheets in a U around it to catch the flying chips, worked pretty well. It was held with wood blocks at the corners, and was not attached to the table so I could shift it to the side if needed for long parts.

That is indeed part of my thinking. I have the plexi and some wood to hold it. I'm lazy.

The reject holders look like little people - turn them into figures for the kids?

 ;D I had the same thought.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Brian Rupnow on August 07, 2018, 02:05:21 PM
I have a tough time with swarf tracking upstairs to my main living area. About 8 years ago my wife decided to have all of the upstairs and hall recarpeted.--Then she decided it would look really nice if the flight of stairs leading from the main floor down to my office/machine-shop were also carpeted ---in dove grey. I argued. I used all of my manly persuasive skills. Then, with only a small whimper, I said okay.--Theory was that I changed my shoes everytime I come out of my machine shop to go upstairs. This of course went over like a fart in a space-suit. My wife failed to notice that I go up and down them damned stairs about 25 times a day. Fast forward 7 years, and the center of the nice dove grey carpeted stairs looked like a hog wallow. We got professional carpet cleaners in to do all of the carpets.--They looked at the stairwell and said "Lady, you gotta be kidding!!"--so--Carpet in stairwell got ripped out and replaced with darker composite flooring. My life is worth living again. I finally had to agree that shoes would only be worn in my shop/office, the stairwell, and the main floor upstairs which is all hardwood and composite flooring. No shoes up in the carpeted hall or bedrooms.--Seems to be working so far----
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 07, 2018, 04:16:50 PM
Same problem. When my shop was in the basement and before we had carpeting (some horrible deep blue) removed from the stairs, the carpeting got pretty sparkly.
Even with a mat for wiping my feet at the bottom of the stairs.
It was better, though not ideal, once the carpeting was removed.
Most of the stuff was gotten rid of on the mat and then more of it as I went upstairs.
Decent enough so long as I swept the stairs once in a while.

The thing about basement stairs is that they are often a tad shorter than the usual steps.
I don't recommend carpeting for such stairs. I fell down twice.
Now I have ridged metal strips along the edges (no carpet) and it's much safer going up and down.

Now the shop is upstairs and it's much easier to track stuff around the house.

In addition to rearranging the shop, I intend to start using a separate pair of shop shoes but that's going to require a change in my pattern of operation.
That is, I go in and out fairly often (not just to machine, but all my tools are nearby) and I'm not enthused about changing shoes every time.

Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 12, 2018, 10:07:30 PM
Had a second go at the crankshaft supports.
Usable but still not very pretty.

1st Pic: I squared up two blanks (making them the same size) then drilled/reamed for the crankshaft and then milled out between the legs.
The little vise stop I'd made some years ago came in handy.

2nd Pic: More of the same. Milling out the sides.

3rd Pic: Using my little rotary table, I milled the sides of the support and around the 'head'. I did this in two steps. a) On one side I plunged cut, milled towards the top, then rotated about half way around. Then I did the same on the other side. (Did I say I love that DRO?). What I should have done was a) mill one side, b) rotate the full rotatoin, then c) moved to mill the other side. You'll see why in the last pic.

4th Pic: One of the supports is different in that it has a tang that connects to the crosshead guide. This differs slightly from the plans. In order to keep the roundness of the top, the tang had to be lengthened slightly to the right. That means the corresponding hole in the crosshead guide will have to move. Basically about 1/16 inch.

5th Pic: Machined the top of the feet which also needed a bit of rotation to meet up with the main holes milled early on.

6th Pic: The supports. You can see how the outer diameter of the crankshaft hole isn't very symmetrical. I think I can improve that by making some filing buttons. You can also see a bump on the sides. That should easily be taken care of with a bit of filing.

My 1st go at this was a complete failure. And even though this round isn't very good...I was happy with the process I came up with and it gave me more experience with my seldom used rotary table.

Uh oh. I think I forgot something. Rats. Two things. (Five if you want to be really technical. More if you really want to beat me down.)
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on August 12, 2018, 10:28:14 PM
As long as they are dimensionally good Zee, you can always pretty up the rest. Not easy parts to make so well done.

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: steamer on August 12, 2018, 11:38:43 PM
Well done Zee!

Dave
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Kim on August 12, 2018, 11:52:19 PM
Those certainly look good to me, Carl. And as Bill said, if they are dimensionally accurate, you can dress them up later.

I have always had difficulties making round overs like that work well on the RT.  Maybe I just don't get it centered well enough, but I find I have to do slight adjustments as I go around a curve.  One edge will be a few thou further out than the other one, so I try to 'blend' the difference around the whole corner.  I've found that using filing buttons works much better for me.  I may try it again sometime, as I hope I'm getting better at the setup and in drilling the center holes.

As long as you're happy enough with them.  That's what counts!
Kim
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Brian Rupnow on August 12, 2018, 11:54:52 PM
Zee--You've done a lovely job on them. Don't beat yourself up. I still have problems making a part with an inside corner radius and then milling a flat to meet it without either going too deep or not going deep enough. Files and emery paper are wonderful things.---Brian
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 13, 2018, 12:07:09 AM
Thanks guys.
While the outer diameter could certainly have been better...I was pretty happy about getting that tang as part of the process.

I haven't decided on the next part.

I have to admit...the crosshead guide scares the bejeepers out of me and I've been putting it off.
(All the parts do...I'm such a...I won't say newbie...let's just say 'scaredy-cat').

Sigh...I don't even know if 'tang' is the right word for what I'm describing.

The upside is...as a hobbyist...it doesn't matter.

That's somewhat of a lie.  ;D

I take so long to write my replies...I get more comments to comment on...  ;D

Thanks Dave.
Thanks Kim. I think you described the issue perfectly. Right now...I'm happy (ecstatic) that they're usable.  ;D Even better...I think I can make them look better.

You know...I don't think there's anyone here who thinks they can do the 'perfect job'. I think they go at it hoping to do a job that satisfies them...that they're proud of.
Many are very good at that...but they have the same thoughts..."gosh, I hope this works out".

If it wasn't for this forum...I think I would have quit some time ago.

Thanks.

I'm still taking a while to finish this reply.  ;D Thanks Brian.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Art K on August 13, 2018, 02:42:51 AM
Carl,
I am just catching up after being gone the last two weekends. Those parts look great! Remember what Brian said. They are usable parts and you can beautify them later. I tend to do the parts I think will be hardest first then it's all downhill from there. :old:
Art
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: 10KPete on August 13, 2018, 02:55:09 AM
Don't feel alone, Zee. I have no trouble making functional things, but I have a lot of trouble making nice looking things. I look at most of the work done by the folks on the board as high goal to attain and I couldn't face the day with out my MEM fix.

Keep yer stick on the ice,

Pete
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: propforward on August 13, 2018, 02:47:40 PM
Those are some very complicated parts - frankly I think you've done very well. I do understand the gulf that occurs between the image in our minds and what we actually make - heaven knows I always struggle with this, but the fact is if you've achieved accurate and functional parts on shapes like that, then you're doing fine. I guess it's all practice and learning that takes your abilities further. I know I have suffered on much simpler parts on that, and had to put projects aside for a time while I go and think things through, but I really respect your tenacity, because the engine is coming along great.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Craig DeShong on August 15, 2018, 05:53:57 PM
Not easy parts to make Zee and they look ok to me.  If you don't have one, $50 buys you a one inch belt sander at Harbor Freight, the perfect tool to blend rough edges and smooth contours.  I'd be lost without mine.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on August 15, 2018, 06:04:49 PM
Not easy parts to make Zee and they look ok to me.  If you don't have one, $50 buys you a one inch belt sander at Harbor Freight, the perfect tool to blend rough edges and smooth contours.  I'd be lost without mine.
Absolutely - mine gets a lot of use, from knocking off rough edges to rounding ends to non-critical arcs.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Brian Rupnow on August 15, 2018, 06:19:03 PM
I have a 1" stationary belt sander. I have a 4" stationary belt sander. I have a 3" hand held belt sander. I have a 5" dia. air sander. I have a hand held 1/2" wide belt sander. I have an electric jitterbug sander.---and about two dozen files---and an old Eastwood polishing kit.  On anything I think is "worthy" at all, then at least one or two of the sanders and files get used, and sometimes the Eastwood polishing kit.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on August 15, 2018, 07:08:33 PM
These guys have great sanding belts/sheets/tools/etc - I love the resin-bonded cloth backed sheets.
https://www.woodworkingshop.com/
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on August 15, 2018, 08:21:56 PM
Just trying to catch up dude  8). Zee, you are carving some pretty intricate parts there. And, you nor I, have been doing this as long as many here have been. I don’t ever count how many times I try to make a part ; I try to learn from each screwup on each part; then finally arrive at the finished part with an increased amount of knowledge and confidence. I think you are doing a cracking good job 👍. Now just keep the damn swarf outta the pool  :lolb: :lolb:

Eric
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: jonesie on August 18, 2018, 02:20:27 PM
hi zee been watching your build and Whiskeys build of this engine. i build this one right atfer stew finsihed his and he sent me the  plans. really a fun build and a great runner need to add the whistle and gov. yet. you are doing a great job,it was easy for me as i have been a moldmaker -toolmaker for over 45 years building lots of plastic injection molds. my one advise is just take you time and think each step  thur  before you do it and you will save lots of time not getting into a corner. after 45 years i still get challenged. kepp up the good work and you will have a nice runner when you are done.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 18, 2018, 06:51:10 PM
Thanks everyone. Very much appreciated.

I do have a belt and disc sander combo. I think that will do for some areas of the parts.

What may be more helpful is one of those gizmos that take a file and moves it up and down.
As I recall, you can even drive it from a lathe or motorize it.

A few members talked about that some time ago and showed projects.

I think that's something I want to do.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: mklotz on August 18, 2018, 08:43:59 PM

What may be more helpful is one of those gizmos that take a file and moves it up and down.
As I recall, you can even drive it from a lathe or motorize it.

A few members talked about that some time ago and showed projects.

I think that's something I want to do.

The "gizmo" (well, at least you didn't call it a thingy) you're referring to is called a die filer.  The thread, which includes contributions from others, is here...

http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,1800.msg26667.html#msg26667
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 18, 2018, 09:34:20 PM
Thanks Marv! That's the very thing....e.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 19, 2018, 05:39:59 PM
For working on the crosshead guide, a fixed follower is needed.
I've used one once back when I had a mini-lathe.

On first go, fairly deep grooves were cutting into the stock. Pretty ugly.
I did some very light filing on the holders (not sure that's 'allowed') and things improved tremendously.
However, there is still a pretty good groove on one side.

Am I going about this right? More filing until I get a somewhat smooth mark?
Other suggestions to improve this?

I should expect some marking since I'm turning aluminum and I believe the holders(?) are harder.
I supposed too that facing/drilling pushes the part harder against one or two of the holders and would deepen the markings.
(In fact, I think that's what happened. I first ran the lathe to see if the marking had improved, which it had, then faced/drilled and saw the marking degrade.)

I'm just not sure what to expect.

BTW The general process is:
1) Set fixed steady
2) Face/center drill
3) Remove fixed steady and use live center to bring OD to diameter
4) Set fixed steady and drill/bore

It's this last step that worries me. Seems the finish will be ruined.
Granted, the OD is not critical and I can sand to smoothness...but still, I'd like to minimize the damage.

Thanks
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on August 20, 2018, 12:00:13 AM
pictures would help....
I assume you mean the kind of steady rest with bars holding the work from three sides, the rest attached to the bed rails of the lathe?  Did you try some grease on them to help the digging-in? I've only used them on brass and steel, the rest did leave a rub mark on the part, can see how it might dig in more on aluminum. Any way you could make a bushing ring to glue onto the part, have the rest rub on that?
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 20, 2018, 12:13:44 AM
pictures would help....
I assume you mean the kind of steady rest with bars holding the work from three sides, the rest attached to the bed rails of the lathe?  Did you try some grease on them to help the digging-in? I've only used them on brass and steel, the rest did leave a rub mark on the part, can see how it might dig in more on aluminum. Any way you could make a bushing ring to glue onto the part, have the rest rub on that?


Thanks Chris.

Yes...the traditional steady rest with work held from 3 sides and the steady rest attached to the rails of the lathe.
I didn't try grease...I used WD-40, given it was aluminum I was holding (as I understand it).

I'm not sure what you mean by a 'bushing ring to glue onto the part'.

In any case...as it turned out...when I reversed the part to drill and bore...it seemed there wasn't a lot sticking out that I had to worry about with a steady.
So I went ahead.

I got the 3 bores I needed done. Next step is the mill.

Sorry for no pics. I'll have them soon.

Quite frankly...so far so good on the crosshead guide.
Which probably means I've jinxed myself.  ;D

Going back to the steady rest with the 3 sides...I'm still curious as to what people have done to improve/fix them. I can't believe they are 'good' out of the box and need some "polishing". I'm curious to know what 'improvements' people have done to their rests.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on August 20, 2018, 12:20:24 AM
Sounds like you have it somewhat sorted. I don’t think I have ever used mine, so, I’m not much help anyway. Hmmm, taking after Steamer eh? :stickpoke:.

Eric
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on August 20, 2018, 12:21:20 AM
I meant to make a brass or steel ring that would slip over the aluminum part where the steady was rubbing on it, and temporarily glue that ring in place on the part. That way the steady arms would run on the ring rather than the finished part.Grease does help, stays in place better than oil or wd40.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: 10KPete on August 20, 2018, 01:19:01 AM
There are two types of steady rest fingers. Fixed and rolling. Rollers sound good but in practice they seem to mash little chips in to soft work. And if on hard work the little chip can bust the steady rest! Seen it done by me.

Fixed come in two flavors. Hardened and polished (usually steel) and 'stock' materials. The ones in my steady are round brass that are flat on the end. Well, they're a little hollow from years of use. Brass will run on almost any material provided it's smooth. I use either oil or grease depending on the speed. Oil for most stuff. I just use the ISO 68 oil that's used on the gearbox.

Biggest thing is clean and smooth surface.

Keep it goin' guys, ya'll are doin' thangs I wish I could.

Pete
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Dave Otto on August 20, 2018, 01:31:52 AM
Eric you and I think a like, that was the first thing that popped into my head when I read that; sorry Dave. :lolb:

Zee use heavy oil on your steady rest fingers not grease, something like Vactra #2 or maybe some cutting oil applied often, this works for me but I'm sure others may have different methods.  Yes as indicated above it is going to leave a mark. Also try to keep the chips away from the fingers.

Dave
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: 90LX_Notch on August 20, 2018, 01:43:50 AM
Still following along Zee. Looking good.

-Bob
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Don1966 on August 20, 2018, 01:46:32 AM
Damn Zee you actually got a project going boy I been away to long. Good to see you using the new shop and tools buddy!


Don
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 20, 2018, 01:51:14 AM
Thanks guys.
I'll try to remember to get a picture in.

My steady...as you can imagine...is not high quality. I think the fingers are some kind of brass or harder. Not rollers. I didn't even know you could get steady's with rollers.
I see what you're saying Chris. Something to keep in mind in the future.

As I said...I got through the lathe work. Next step is the mill (where all can be ruined).

I was fairly happy with the boring (although the proof will be when the crosshead is in place)...but I was surprised about the last step.
1st step was to drill/bore .625 through all which holds the cross head.
2nd step was to bore larger but not so far (I think just for space/looks).
3rd step was to bore a bit larger to hold the cylinder cover.

3rd step shows quite a bit of chatter although I didn't notice any real difference in sound/feel as I worked it.

Ah...here's the pics...

1st pic is the overall crosshead guide. I'm thinking decent although the transition from the larger diameter to the smaller doesn't show that well in the picture.
The angle is about 56 degrees but I'm thinking it I should have made it larger. Just a cosmetic thing though.

2nd pic shows what I was talking about. The smaller diameter looks okay. Truth will be when the crosshead is put in.
The next diameter also looks okay (keeping in mind it's just space).
You can see the chatter on the larger diameter. I hadn't changed any settings (speed/etc. other than moving to a larger diameter).
I'm thinking it's okay. That's the part that is a close/press fit for the cylinder cover.
In any case...I'm going forward with it.
The milling will be a pucker job and if it fails...then I start all over.

Oh...I should explain...when I flipped the part...there was only about 1 and half inches sticking out. I questioned whether the steady was needed and went ahead and faced and then drilled through.

Drilling was a bit of a "hold my breath". I drilled 1/2". The tailstock doesn't have 4+ inches of travel so I drilled as far as I could...moved the tail stock (and bit) in...and continued to drill. It took about 3 times of moving the tail stock. Went pretty well but I don't know if that's the way a seasoned machinist would do it.
I didn't worry too much because I knew I'd be boring and the boring bar I had was long enough for the what I needed.

Anyhoo...I'm stopping now to enjoy my evening and will let tomorrow be what it is.  ;D

...Got some comments while I was writing this...

@Dave...thanks. I'll try heavy oil next time. But I'm still wondering what people do to (re)condition a fixed steady.
@Bob...I haven't commented on your thread...but I'm looking in.
@Don...You still dancing? I hope so. It's all about the rumba. The tango is dangerous  ;D
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: 10KPete on August 20, 2018, 02:00:39 AM

The tailstock doesn't have 4+ inches of travel so I drilled as far as I could...moved the tail stock (and bit) in...and continued to drill. It took about 3 times of moving the tail stock. Went pretty well but I don't know if that's the way a seasoned machinist would do it.


Well, I don't know any other way it could be done....

Pete
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on August 20, 2018, 02:30:01 AM
Nice, got to be happy to have those steps done!


 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 20, 2018, 02:33:57 AM
Thanks Pete! My only mentors are here on the forum so it's always great to find out I'm doing okay.

@Chris...yes indeed. It's good to have that done. Drilling that size and that depth is still very new to me. We'll see how the milling goes.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on August 20, 2018, 02:36:12 AM
Looks good to me Zee. Nice finish as well.

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 20, 2018, 03:24:55 AM
Did anyone else notice something about Bill's shop?
Bathroom, fridge...
Add a hot plate, maybe a cot, and I've got a place to stay.
No worries about a cot...I've got a mat. And I have a hot plate.

Probably no worries about a hot plate...when I was in college...I made mac-n-cheese out of a popcorn maker.
That was back when you could get 5 boxes of Kraft for a buck. (The era of ramon noodles hadn't hit yet.)

But...I'll wait for better weather.

That's a lie. I'll wait for the shop to be complete.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on August 20, 2018, 03:39:04 AM
There is a fridge, but old. And a hot plate and microwave too.  The hot plate will go, used it back then to vat dye parts. Doubt it will clean up. The microwave is ok I think.

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 20, 2018, 03:45:13 AM
There is a fridge, but old. And a hot plate and microwave too.  The hot plate will go, used it back then to vat dye parts. Doubt it will clean up. The microwave is ok I think.

Now who here wouldn't take that as an invite?  ;D
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on August 20, 2018, 04:01:52 AM
Best wait till the power is back on though and the A/C installed  :LittleDevil:

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: sbwhart on August 20, 2018, 05:56:58 AM
Cross head guide looks great Zee and with nice finish  :ThumbsUp:

Stew
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: john mills on August 20, 2018, 08:30:35 AM
I hope the fingers on the steady are a bronze ,brass is not a bearing material and is soft it would be hard to keep the adjusted  a delicate job as it is. I have taken them out and faced them but often on steel they will wear to the shape pretty quickly .I use oil  even set up a drip oiler,for turning longer shafts .I have used roller tired steadies ,ones on a cheap lathe were radiused and cut like a tube cutter even in steel.usually they would be flat.
I have worked next to a lathe they were turning rollers 2 meters long 800mm dia supported by roller tipped steady.on longer jobs it is a constant job keeping the adjustment right  for bronze tips.
looks like your getting on ok .
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 20, 2018, 02:32:33 PM
Thanks guys.

Thanks for the help on the follower John. (And the fingers look like bronze.)
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Baner on August 20, 2018, 04:10:57 PM
This thread moves fast, it's hard to keep up!
The steady rest on my bigger lathe came with bronze fingers, and I added rollers as well. (Photo1) These can be removed and the fingers use instead. The rollers are known as cam followers and come pretty cheap on ebay. Bronze fingers can be fine but tend to mar soft metals as you found out. They're also difficult to set up - it can be hard to tell when they've contacted the work.
Rollers generally won't mar the work if set up correct, and are easy to tell when they make contact - they start spinning. However, they can, like Pete said, mash chips into the work. Photo 2 shows a simple chip shield cut out of paper that stops (most) of the chips getting under the rollers.
As usual, different methods work better in different situations.

Dave.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 20, 2018, 04:51:47 PM
Thanks Dave. Very helpful!
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Craig DeShong on August 21, 2018, 01:59:27 AM
Nice job Zee, you'll be "teach'in the class" before long !
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 21, 2018, 11:18:26 PM
Nice job Zee, you'll be "teach'in the class" before long !

Thanks. My 'long' is measured in eons.  ;D Or something a little less.

Did some more work on the crosshead guide. So far...so pretty good.

1st pic shows set up for marking. I don't have a chuck for my spindexer.

So marking went great but then I had to put it in the vise and lost all reference. I used the height gauge and went back and forth from one side to another until I rotate it to 'close enough'.

2nd pic shows the milling out of one side.

3rd pic shows milling the rounded corner. The downside of doing it this way (as I found out) is the metal gets pushed out and over the line I was going for. It was hard to know when to stop. I could have done one of two things. a) Milled from the other side so the cutter goes 'into' the mark. I would have needed a mirror to see that. b) I could have set the mill to just touch and used the DRO. But I'd still have a bunch of metal pushed out that would need filing.

4th pic shows this step done. A little filing and things cleaned up pretty well. I don't know if I reached the target for the rounded corner but it looks pretty close and it won't matter.

You might notice I redid the transition from the smaller outer diameter to the larger outer diameter. It really bugged me but it was pretty easy to correct.

You might also notice a step change, rather than a smooth transition, from the smaller inner diameter to the larger inner diameter. I didn't have an appropriate cutter to do that but more importantly I couldn't see it and didn't want to rely on my measuring. I'm probably going to leave as is but there's a chance I might be able to improve it later.

Whether this goes bad or not...at least I know how to get this far.  ;D

[EDIT] You'll also see the far end's inner diameter looks much smaller. I got there drilling but the boring bar couldn't and didn't need to. All of that gets milled away later.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on August 21, 2018, 11:27:11 PM
Nice stock removal Zee  :ThumbsUp: :DrinkPint:

Eric
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on August 21, 2018, 11:35:34 PM
Looking good Zee  :ThumbsUp:

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on August 22, 2018, 12:00:16 AM
Nice job!
 :popcorn: :popcorn:    Hmmmm, 'eons'? Better order more popcorn...    :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Dave Otto on August 22, 2018, 12:41:51 AM
Nicely done Zee!


Dave
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Brian Rupnow on August 22, 2018, 12:55:01 AM
Looking good so far Zee. there are a lot of steps and set-ups in that cross head guide.---Brian
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: 10KPete on August 22, 2018, 04:28:29 AM
That looks great, Zee!  :whoohoo:

Pete
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: propforward on August 22, 2018, 01:52:44 PM
This is a fascinating build. Zee - where does one obtain these plans? I'd love to look them over more closely.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 22, 2018, 02:21:22 PM
Thanks guys!

Zee - where does one obtain these plans? I'd love to look them over more closely.

I'm working off plans from sbwhart. He kindly sent them to me after I PM'd him.
He also wrote an article that's been very helpful.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Omkz-60W-WmwYr0IBxVTaVOc8tXohgns

Julius also posted a scaled up version in the plans section. (I can't find it off-hand.) It has been useful as well.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: propforward on August 22, 2018, 02:58:24 PM
I will search - thank you!
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 22, 2018, 07:19:04 PM
Sweet. Barely a hint of bitter.

Finished the crosshead guide today. That was quite a bit of fun and I'm pretty happy with it.
I'm not sure of one dimension. Assembly will tell me if I have an interference.
Hopefully that hard transition from the smaller inner diameter to the larger inner diameter won't be a bother.

1st pic shows the other side getting milled out in preparation for rounding the corners.
2nd pic shows the other side's slot done. Used a 5/8 and a 3/4 end mill to do the corners.
3rd pic is basically the same process but used a boring bar to the 1.5" diameter corner I needed.

The last 3 pics are different views of the finished part.

Holding the part for various operations was interesting. Sometimes I packet the sides. For some operations I put a 5/8 boring bar inside so I wouldn't crush the part in the vise.
I used aluminum. If I do this kind of part again then I have a bit more confidence to use steel.

I couldn't have done it without Stewart Hart's article in Model Engineer.

I'll be playing with that part all evening.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on August 22, 2018, 07:49:21 PM
Beautiful looking part Zee. And not an easy part to do by any means. Nicely done!!

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on August 22, 2018, 08:00:55 PM
Very nice!!  Quite a complex shape, looks great!


 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on August 22, 2018, 08:17:41 PM
I’d put that next to the jar of cocktail onions and look at it the rest of the night :lolb:  :cheers:  Damn nice Zee

Eric

Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: jonesie on August 22, 2018, 09:55:47 PM
zee that looks really good  keep up the good work,looking forward to seeing it run,sure you are also.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Kim on August 22, 2018, 11:07:21 PM
Wow!  That's a challenging part for sure.   There's a lot less metal on it when you finished up!
Kim
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Steamer5 on August 23, 2018, 11:55:22 AM
Hi Zee,
 You nailed that! Hope Mrs Zee wasn't to put out with you being preoccupied all evening!

As a thought now you have thinned down both sides & exposed that internal corner, could you set it up & with the correct sized end mill take out the square corner? Totally understand if you are more than happy with what you have!!

Right more  :popcorn: needed......spring better hurry up!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 23, 2018, 02:09:22 PM
Thanks everyone. I felt pretty good about it.

As a thought now you have thinned down both sides & exposed that internal corner, could you set it up & with the correct sized end mill take out the square corner?

It's tempting. My biggest fear is the dreaded thought "only one more operation and it's done" jinx. I'm also not sure how to hold it in the lathe without crushing it.
So, yes, I'm happy with what I have.  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 24, 2018, 03:23:04 PM
Disaster.

See that hole under the cylinder cover? Fooey.
Dumb mistake. When I made the cylinder, the plans appeared to show that hole drilled perpendicularly to the bore to a port.
I had used an end mill to make the port but worried that it wasn't deep enough.
So I moved the hole a little out thinking the cover would still cover it...dumb.
When I made that hole, the ol' little voice in my head said, "Odd. For past cylinders I had drilled that hole at an angle."
Looking at Stew's article I saw that he had drilled the hole at an angle. Sigh.

Make cover bigger? Nah. It would look weird.

I'll remake the cylinder. If you all recall...the cylinder was damaged anyway by a previous boo-boo.

That will bring me to cylinder #3.
Wish me luck.
A 3rd failure typically makes me question why I bother.  ;D
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Jo on August 24, 2018, 03:32:15 PM
That will bring me to cylinder #3.
Wish me luck.
A 3rd failure typically makes me question why I bother.  ;D

But are you enjoying yourself ? Just think how much experience you are getting, you couldn't have tackled something this difficult only a few years ago.

And what would life be like if we didn't find ourselves new challenges to try to over come? Its the journey that matters  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 24, 2018, 06:12:01 PM
That will bring me to cylinder #3.
Wish me luck.
A 3rd failure typically makes me question why I bother.  ;D

But are you enjoying yourself ? Yep Just think how much experience you are getting, you couldn't have tackled something this difficult only a few years ago. True

And what would life be like if we didn't find ourselves new challenges to try to over come? Bored Its the journey that matters  ;) Okay. Okay. I'll come out of my hole. It didn't hurt to have done that crosshead guide just before.  :whoohoo:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on August 24, 2018, 07:13:47 PM
As I’ve said before; first one is the prototype, second one is for the revisions, third is the finished part. Or, just figure you’re helping our fledgling steel industry  :old:.. Personally, as long as I’m making chips, I’m happy and never really count the “prototypes” .

Er

Eric
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Johnmcc69 on August 24, 2018, 07:46:37 PM
Can you drill/tap & plug the hole & re-machine it?
 It's coming along nicely Zee...Keep at it.

John
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Jim Nic on August 24, 2018, 10:11:21 PM
Zee
The inlet port is supposed to be drilled parallel to the cylinder bore.  From Stew's original metric drawings the cylinder end cover at radius 28mm is supposed to be larger than the rounded part of the cylinder, which is radius 24mm, and so will cover the port.  On my model the edge of the cover is level with the flat base of the cylinder block.  It would appear from your picture that your cylinder end cover is too small enough and if you made that part bigger it may save you making a new cylinder block.

Jim

Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: JC54 on August 24, 2018, 10:55:29 PM
I can understand your pain/frustration on 3rd attempt at a part, I have finally got my first engine ( a simple wobbler) running after 5 attempts at the piston :facepalm:. I think the knack is to learn from your mistakes, and as you do, ask questions.... The expertise on this site is so amazing and freely given.. :praise2: :happyreader:   John
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: propforward on August 24, 2018, 11:53:56 PM

A 3rd failure typically makes me question why I bother.  ;D

I go through that, but on the whole it's a lot of fun, which I think is the reason for bothering. Also, it just goes to show that this is NOT an easy hobby. It tasks the ol' brainbox, which is a good thing.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on August 25, 2018, 12:53:41 AM
Think of it this way Zee. The world population is currently around 7.6 billion. Even if there are a million of us worldwide that enjoy making engines that works out to .00013 or just over 1 in 10000. You are a part of a somewhat rare and sadly dwindling fraternity.

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 25, 2018, 02:35:45 PM
Thanks everyone.
Not to worry.  ;D

@John: re drill/tap & plug...I would have my doubts. The part of the hole that is covered has a passage to the bore and I think it would be messy to plug. I'm not sure as I've rarely done such a thing. Besides I wasn't really happy with the cylinder due to the damage I'd caused when milling the outer curve so this is a nice excuse to push me to remake the cylinder.

The inlet port is supposed to be drilled parallel to the cylinder bore.  From Stew's original metric drawings the cylinder end cover at radius 28mm is supposed to be larger than the rounded part of the cylinder, which is radius 24mm, and so will cover the port.  On my model the edge of the cover is level with the flat base of the cylinder block.  It would appear from your picture that your cylinder end cover is too small enough and if you made that part bigger it may save you making a new cylinder block.

Good to know I hadn't misread the drawing. Does make me wonder why Stew drilled at an angle. My cylinder cover is 1 3/32 (28mm-ish) and the cylinder is 15/16 (24mm-ish).
The problem was I'd moved the hole out a little. I was hoping it would still be covered but I'd measured incorrectly and moved too far. The reason I moved the hole was because the end mills I used to make the ports are a little short. Drilling the hole where it belonged wouldn't have touched the ports. I could make the covers still larger but I don't think I'd like the look.

I suppose another possibility is to not use an end-mill for the ports and instead chain drill with a 1/16" bit. But that seems like I'd be asking to bust a bit.

@Bill: 1 in 10000 eh? I was always told I was 1 in a million.  ;D



Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: cfellows on August 25, 2018, 04:35:35 PM
Fortunately, the wasted material is usually small and not costly, even in brass.  But the idea of starting over on a part can certainly be daunting.  Just keep telling yourself the joy is in the process, not the product.  :D

Chuck
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on August 25, 2018, 04:57:50 PM
You mean, as we say down here; “ They broke the mold after they made old Zee, thank God “ :lolb: :lolb:

Eric
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 25, 2018, 07:18:22 PM
Thanks guys. Well...Chuck anyway.  ;D

Reading Prop's thread (tramming his mill) raised a question for me.
Tramming the mill involves getting X and Y square to the column (head).

Are there concerns, instances of, or thoughts on the possibility of the table being warped?
How would you test it? What could be done about it?
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Brian Rupnow on August 25, 2018, 07:23:32 PM
Check it with a known straight edge and a bright light. If you see light under the straight edge, you have warped table. What can you do about it??---Really, not much.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: jonesie on August 25, 2018, 07:28:56 PM
hi zee,hey if you have a good 30  in level or a 24in blade for a combination sq. set it on edge or the level on the table and see if you can see light under it or check it with feeler gauges to see if there is warp. good luck
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on August 25, 2018, 08:47:40 PM
Simple twist check, lay a straightedge at either end, crisswise, and sight down the length if if  table. The straightedges being longer than the table is wide will exaggerate any twist.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Art K on August 26, 2018, 04:04:37 AM
Zee,
Every time I check the popcorn I'm about 2 pages behind. The cross head guide looks great. Even re-making parts you're making great progress. On my Upshur engine my first head had the holes .020" outward from where they should have been. Couldn't read my own hand written dimensions on the drawing. Guess what, the holes didn't line up. :wallbang: Stuff happens and we learn from it.
Art
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 26, 2018, 04:15:41 PM
 :lolb: :lolb: :lolb:
I must be losing it.
 :lolb: :lolb: :lolb:

So I started on the new cylinder.  :facepalm: One of the outer dimensions was supposed to be 1.313, NOT 1.375.
That 1/16 off wouldn't have come to haunt me until I started assembly. (It would've worked but I'd be scratching my head why things seemed off.)
I had hoped that would explain why that one hole couldn't reach the ports but it's still not quite close enough.
The end mill I have won't go deep enough so I'll angle the hole.

I will really have to laugh. There were at least 3 signs that this cylinder was crud and was going to be a do-over.

The only reason I found this boo-boo now was because I realized 2 of the 3 outer dimensions looked identical and that didn't seem right to me.

I'm still snickering at myself. Dunce.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on August 26, 2018, 04:24:02 PM
:lolb: :lolb: :lolb:
I must be losing it.
 :lolb: :lolb: :lolb:

...
Oh, that ship has sailed... and sunk...  :Lol:
Every one of us has been there, transposing digits, misreading scales, whatever!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: 10KPete on August 26, 2018, 05:28:56 PM
It's much easier to talk about the successes than the boo boos 'cause the boo boos are so many... At least around here!

Hang in there Zee, it only gets better. Mostly. Usually. Sometimes. Why I remember the time.... :paranoia:

Pete
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Craig DeShong on August 26, 2018, 09:19:24 PM
You have just graduated from your self declared "rank amature" status   :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 26, 2018, 11:41:00 PM
You have just graduated from your self declared "rank amature" status   :ThumbsUp:

Noooooooo! I must keep my 'rank amateur' status for some time yet.
I suppose I should ask myself...self...what would it take to feel like I'm not a rank amateur?
But first I must ask...what would you call someone between (rank) amateur and pro (expert)?
An amateur expert?
You can't just step over a line and go from one to the other.
"Seasoned amateur"...no...seems smelly.
"Pre-Pro"...no...hard to say and could be mistaken if not said or heard clearly.

Let's leave it at this...I'm not rank  :lolb: but I'm still an amateur.

Wait...I know!  :cartwheel: I'm working on becoming a professional amateur. Yeah. That's it.

Then an amateur professional!  :whoohoo: I have a goal.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on August 27, 2018, 12:43:22 AM
I like to call it: “gracefully maturing”  :cheers:

Eric
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Dave Otto on August 27, 2018, 01:05:02 AM
I like to call it: “gracefully maturing”  :cheers:

Eric

Or maybe apprentice?   :LittleDevil:

Dave
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on August 27, 2018, 01:11:33 AM
Serious Amateur? 

Or

Not-So-Serious Amateur?

Unpaid Professional?
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on August 27, 2018, 01:20:12 AM
How about: “Retired Programmer Turned Machinist” :facepalm:

Eric
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 27, 2018, 01:21:50 AM
 ;D I see that you all are just as flummoxed.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on August 27, 2018, 01:44:43 AM
;D I see that you all are just as flummoxed.
Yup!


So: People Having Fun!
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Art K on August 27, 2018, 11:53:37 AM
hey Eric,
Quote
How about: “Retired Programmer Turned Machinist” :facepalm:
Is this with an emphasis on turned, pun intended. :atcomputer:
Art
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: mklotz on August 27, 2018, 03:06:33 PM
"Novice in training" or, if of a religious perversion, Novitiate.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 27, 2018, 03:18:39 PM
Maybe something very clear..."nonprofessional".
Or, for Marv, "abecedarian" (if this is considered a field of learning).
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: mklotz on August 27, 2018, 03:41:33 PM
Maybe something very clear..."nonprofessional".
Or, for Marv, "abecedarian" (if this is considered a field of learning).

I remember a TV reality cop show where the cop is questioning a suspected DUI...

Do you know your alphabet?

Yes, officer, I know my letters; I just don't know them in order.

Yup, "abecedarian" sounds perfect for you.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 27, 2018, 04:02:40 PM
Maybe something very clear..."nonprofessional".
Or, for Marv, "abecedarian" (if this is considered a field of learning).

I remember a TV reality cop show where the cop is questioning a suspected DUI...

Do you know your alphabet?

Yes, officer, I know my letters; I just don't know them in order.

Yup, "abecedarian" sounds perfect for you.

Crud. That one backfired.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Roger B on August 27, 2018, 06:30:53 PM
I go for Rank Expert (remember 'Ex' is finished 'Spurt' is a drip under pressure)  :) Keep up the banter and the machining  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: mklotz on August 27, 2018, 06:46:05 PM
The Germans use "amateur" much as English speakers do but, harking back to my incarceration among the Pennsylvania Dutch, I remember hearing "Stümper" used in that context.  Of course, it was also used in the context of bumbler, fumbler, botcher and bungler.  Hmm, maybe it's more applicable than I think.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 27, 2018, 07:52:42 PM
The Germans use "amateur" much as English speakers do but, harking back to my incarceration among the Pennsylvania Dutch, I remember hearing "Stümper" used in that context.  Of course, it was also used in the context of bumbler, fumbler, botcher and bungler.  Hmm, maybe it's more applicable than I think.

 :cussing:

One can be just as unhappy with truth as happy.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Craig DeShong on August 28, 2018, 03:24:28 AM
How about: “Retired Programmer Turned Machinist” :facepalm:

Eric

Noooooooooooo. Can't use that one, I've already claimed it; except to clarify, it's really: Retired Programmer turned half-vast machinist.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 28, 2018, 06:32:30 PM
'Finished' the new (3rd) cylinder today. Still needs some sanding/filing.

Original plans shows the hole from near the end of the bore to a port as parallel.
I can't make the port deep enough so I angled the hole.
1st pic shows the setup.

2nd pic shows the completed cylinder.  :whoohoo:

If you have been following Eric's thread, he mentioned a hidden boo-boo and I'd said I'd show mine if he showed his.
But I'll go ahead and show mine...being one who tends to bare all (but not always nor everything!).

3rd pic shows a groove running from one cover hole through the inlet and to another cover hole.
This happened because, after drilling one cover hole,  I didn't raise the head far enough before moving to drill the next cover hole.
That is to say...I DIDN'T WATCH WHAT I WAS DOING!  :slap:
Yes...the drill was still spinning.
Using the DRO, I center drilled all four holes, then drilled all four holes, then tapped all four holes rather than center/drill/tap one hole at a time.
I suspect the bit would have broken had I stopped the mill before moving the head.
You might have thought the groove would be straight (I was moving only one axis) but it curved due to the bit's rotation and flex.

There is one other boo-boo that you may or not be able to see.
The outer curve is not perfectly round (or concentric to the bore).
I apparently had one dimension off (about 30 thou) so there's a slight hump along the curve.
I don't think it will be very noticeable after more filing and the covers installed.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on August 28, 2018, 06:34:23 PM
Nice! You are getting a lot of learning in on this one, which is great. Fortunately that one groove can be filled with a little JB Weld or other goop, wont hurt a thing.
 :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 28, 2018, 06:36:50 PM
Nice! You are getting a lot of learning in on this one, which is great. Fortunately that one groove can be filled with a little JB Weld or other goop, wont hurt a thing.
 :popcorn: :popcorn:

Thanks. A bit of goop is exactly what I was thinking.

Regarding the dimensional boo-boo...As it turns out, it's very noticeable when a cover is put on. The cover appears offset. Ah well.
Once the engine is built...I doubt (hope) people will notice (other than you lot).
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: propforward on August 28, 2018, 06:53:39 PM
Boo boo's aside, it's a very fine piece of machining, with good surface finish and what looks like good accuracy. Very nice indeed.

I continue to follow this thread with a lot of interest. I enjoy seeing your set up pictures as well - it's always good to see how people set up - gives a lot of good ideas.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Kim on August 28, 2018, 06:58:26 PM
That looks like a perfectly functional cylinder to me, Zee!

I don't think you would even need to use any goop for that groove.  The threaded holes don't go anywhere, so you won't leak any air.  If you want to fill it, then by all means do so. But it'll be covered up by the end cap.

But do what makes you happy!
Kim
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on August 28, 2018, 08:15:42 PM
I’d either blame the groove on the drawings or write it off to “artist discretion” . TBH, everything is looking great. I’ll show you mine when I figure out how big of a problem it’s going to cause. I have bared all, but only to a select thirty or so: still get very sweet Christmas cards from twenty something of them  every year :mischief: :naughty: :lolb:. Of course, Lou understands why :Jester: :lolb:

Eric
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on August 28, 2018, 11:34:55 PM
We promise not to notice Zee  ;)

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 29, 2018, 09:23:39 PM
We promise not to notice Zee  ;)

Sure. I believe everything you say.  ;D

A little bit of progress.
Worked on the valve, valve cross bar, and valve rod.

1st pic shows milling of the valve. A pocket had already been milled.
2nd pic shows the valve being taken off the parent stock. (And yes...I made sure the saw was right side up.)
3rd pic shows the finished parts.

Oh...you notice those light bands around the valve rod? Want to know how that happens?
I'll tell you anyway. That happens when you start turning down the diameter after forgetting to tighten the chuck.   :facepalm:

The valve cross bar and valve rod are stainless steel.

P.S. In the 1st pic, three parallels are on the left side of the vise to balance the load. In the 2nd pic, a piece of aluminum was used.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on August 29, 2018, 09:30:43 PM
What bands?? The parts all look good to me Zee. Nicely done.

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 29, 2018, 09:33:20 PM
Thanks Bill.

What bands??

Pretty hard to see I guess. I could change the image to show them up more but they're very light. They'll be gone once I polish and assemble.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on August 29, 2018, 09:43:35 PM
Also get those bands when threading the rod and not taking the diameter down not quite enough....
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 29, 2018, 10:06:36 PM
Also get those bands when threading the rod and not taking the diameter down not quite enough....

 :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: propforward on August 29, 2018, 11:11:22 PM
Your surface finishes look good. I have purchased machined parts from vendors that don't look as good as those. I think you're beating yourself up on the bands - if they will polish out that easily then no harm no fould - although I do understand your frustration from how it was caused. A good haul of machined parts though. Definite thumbs up.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 30, 2018, 12:31:02 AM
Your surface finishes look good. I have purchased machined parts from vendors that don't look as good as those. I think you're beating yourself up on the bands - if they will polish out that easily then no harm no fould - although I do understand your frustration from how it was caused. A good haul of machined parts though. Definite thumbs up.

Thanks Stuart. I'm not beating myself about the bands....that was about letting newbies (LIKE ME) know. However, you're spot on about the frustration. It smarts to forget to do what I think should be basic operations. I had posted on another thread about being off by 10 thou. I couldn't understand why...I was using the DRO. Now I realize it was because I hadn't locked down an axis and the backlash got me. Milling pushed the part aside.

Still...so far I feel like I'm improving and that's what counts.

Just today...I milled a part that was supposed to be (exactly) 0.375. And I nailed it. There was a small happy dance in celebration.  ;D
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: propforward on August 30, 2018, 12:52:41 AM
As well there should be!
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: 10KPete on August 30, 2018, 01:58:56 AM
And may you be blessed with many more such nailings...

 :cheers:

Pete
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Steamer5 on August 30, 2018, 09:40:18 AM
Doing great Zee!

On the banding, got that tee shirt years ago!


Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 30, 2018, 06:47:51 PM
Thanks guys. That helps keep me up.

Now for what brought me down    :cussing:

My tendency to over-tighten, over-pound, over-eat got the best of me again.
(I over-drink as well but not in the shop.)

I was trying to tighten down the compound onto the cross slide when I encountered an infinitely turning nut.
I had stripped the bolt.

As best as I can tell, it's a 20 threads per inch. I suspect a 5/16.
Off to home depot to see if I can find something close enough (taking good nut and bolt with me to compare).

I suppose I could make but I've never done threading before (and if a die exists, I don't have it).
 :slap: Make? Without a compound?
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Stuart on August 30, 2018, 07:02:07 PM
Sure it’s not metric as your lathe I think is not old iron ,

5/16 and 8 mm are very close but not quite ,but if you make both it can be what ever you like

Have fun and be safe

Stuart
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 30, 2018, 07:10:15 PM
Sure it’s not metric as your lathe I think is not old iron ,

Nope, not sure. I used a tool to measure the threads and they look 20/in which seems to imply imperial.

But that's why I'm taking the good bolt/nut to the store with me.
It actually doesn't matter which system so long as it fits.
Have to be careful though. If I have to get another nut...it can't be too thick, although I guess I could machine it down.

I haven't investigated thoroughly but it does seem some bolts/nuts/screws on the lathe are imperial while others are metric. Same for the mill.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Jasonb on August 30, 2018, 07:15:43 PM
Most likely M8 x 1.25.

That is a pitch of 1.25mm which equates to 20.3tpi so would look similar to a 20tpi imperial screw.

Also worth looking at the parts diagram at the back of the manual as they usually give all screws / bolts as M# x length
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on August 30, 2018, 07:23:16 PM
+1 on what Jason said. I’ll have to say that all the “fixing bolts” on my Grizzly are pretty soft.

E
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 30, 2018, 08:46:03 PM
M8 x 1.25...not 5/16 x 20. I was close!  :paranoia:

I checked the manual. It does call out M8 (bolt and nut) but not the thread pitch nor the length.

Good thing I took the old one in.

I got both hex cap and machine bolt. But tghe hex doesn't have enough meat on it. The machine is fine but the sides have to be slightly trimmed.

 :cussing: 2mm too short. I'll have to go back. Hope they have longer and then trim them.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on August 30, 2018, 08:59:06 PM
Wonder how come you have to make two trips to get anything done  :shrug:. Think about it

Eric
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 30, 2018, 09:43:25 PM
Wonder how come you have to make two trips to get anything done  :shrug:. Think about it

I'm doing well at two trips and my single trip frequency has been increasing. It used to be three - no matter what. ;D

Got the last package of bolts.  :pinkelephant: This store is close enough I can be there and back well within an hour. Other stores would double the time.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on August 30, 2018, 10:03:08 PM
As Whiskey said, the main issue I have with the imports is the softness of the hardware. We had the same issues with all the JET mills and lathes at school. Students can be notoriously rough on such things too!!

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 30, 2018, 10:27:06 PM
Back up and running.  :pinkelephant:

A little mill work got me a functional bolt. Could have been done with a hack saw and file...but I like using my tool.

Picture for proof.

Re: softness of hardware. Yes, I'd noticed that on my mini(s) and new equipment as well.
I'm fine with it. I'd rather they let go (fail) before something more valuable does.

Now I've got an extra bolt for next time.

[EDIT] I didn't shave the sides as much as the original. I'd rather have more meat to press against.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: propforward on August 30, 2018, 10:51:29 PM
Nice save!
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 30, 2018, 11:09:03 PM
Thanks Stuart.

I like to think I'm helping (newbies anyway).
I remember when I started this hobby. Had this happened then, I'd feel lost, frustrated, and perhaps fairly upset.
This forum and a bit of experience has made many changes in me. (Some good...some not so good  ;D )
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: propforward on August 31, 2018, 12:59:15 AM
You are. And getting some encouragement in the process, which us newcomers need.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 31, 2018, 03:04:30 AM
Manufactured sometime after sunrise but before 5:00pm.  ;D
Finished the oiler for the crosshead guide. In between which was the repair to the lathe.

Two things (problems) to note...

1st is that I don't have the equipment to make tiny holes. So the holes for the oil is a bit large. Not a biggie. This engine isn't going to run for long periods of time.
"Not a biggie"  :lolb: :lolb:

2nd, the top doesn't sit flush with the bottom. That was a bit of surprise given the dimensions I was working towards. But I'm kind of liking the look anyway.

1st pic is the two parts to the oiler. You can tell the hole in the cap is a bit large. Same size hole going into the crosshead guide.
2nd pic shows the oiler installed. You can see how the cap is not flush with the bottom. But seems to look okay to me.

It's after 5. You shouldn't expect anything from me.  ;D
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: 10KPete on August 31, 2018, 03:20:07 AM
Nice! Keep 'er goin' Zee.

 :cheers:

Pete
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Mike Bondarczuk on August 31, 2018, 10:20:23 AM
Hi Zee,

If you undercut the top of the thread and then perhaps shorten the overall length of the externally threaded stub you should find that the oiler will fit flush with the recipient component.

Mike
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Jasonb on August 31, 2018, 01:06:46 PM
Zee two ways to get the threaded part right down, undercut bit as you don't have  a very large thread dia that may weaken the part or drill a shallow counter bore the clearance size for the thread into the top of the hole so the unthreaded part of the oiler will go down into that, Best done before tapping but can be done with care afterwards just watch the drill does not snatch and get drawn too far down the hole.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 31, 2018, 01:24:06 PM
Thanks Pete.

Thanks Mike and Jason. I believe I understand what you're saying. I may have a go at improving that.

The oiler was scaled down from Julius' plans. Although Stew's plans had a hole for oil (or an oiler) on the cross head guide, there was no plans for an oiler.
In reviewing Julius' plans, his oiler had more of a flat at the top of the thread. Had I made it that way, then I could have placed a flat on the cross head guide.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on August 31, 2018, 02:05:41 PM
Nice little oil pot Zee  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Eric
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on August 31, 2018, 02:43:16 PM
Looks fine to me Zee. I wouldn't change it at all.

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Jasonb on August 31, 2018, 03:10:52 PM
Had I made it that way, then I could have placed a flat on the cross head guide.

You can still do something similar assuming you are going to paint th etrunk guide. Just JB Weld on a small disc with a clearance hole in it so that the oil cup sits down on the disk. Something like this

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Engineering/Jowitt%20MkII/DSC00612_zpszgryib81.jpg)

Once the fillet has been filed to a give radius with a needle file and paint applied it will give the impression of a cast boss

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Engineering/Jowitt%20MkII/DSC00801_zpsmtu3dlzc.jpg)
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: mklotz on August 31, 2018, 03:12:53 PM
As Jason said, counterbore the cup so the unfinished part of the thread on the top has a place to go.  He seems to recommend using a drill for this but I would mount the part in the lathe and use a boring bar to do it so there is less chance of catching the existing thread.  Feed slowly and take shallow cuts.

Maybe it's just me but the hole in the cup looks fairly large.  If you find the oil draining out too quickly in use, you can insert a wire into the hole to partially block the flow.  Hide the wire inside the cup.

I think the oiler would look better if the diameter of the cap were larger than the diameter of the cup and had some fluting around the circumference.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 31, 2018, 03:36:55 PM
Thanks Eric and Bill.

Nifty idea Jason.  :ThumbsUp:

Marv...the hole is indeed too large. I thought I'd mentioned that I didn't have the equipment to use such a tiny drill bit that was called for. Thanks for the idea to use wire.
As for the oil cap, I went by plans but agree your suggestion would look better.

I'd thought I understand what was being said about counterboring but I find myself lost.

I'd thought Jason was talking about counterboring the crosshead guide, not the cup. I don't know what modifications I'd make to the cup (other than I forgot to turn a shoulder at the top of the thread).

I can see a number of possibilities if I redo the cup but I'll wait to see how well the model turns out. The more difficult parts are yet to be done (governor, whistle, manifold).

I've attached pics of what I have.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: mklotz on August 31, 2018, 03:50:54 PM
The idea is to counterbore the mouth of the cup so that the unthreaded part of the cap has a place to go.  When this is done, the cap will thread on so that the gap between cap and cup disappears.

In the future, remember that whenever you thread something up to a shoulder, you might want to do an undercut to eliminate the unfinished or imperfect thread immediately adjacent to the shoulder.

I guess I don't understand the logic of an oil cup cap with a hole in it.  Isn't the cap meant to prevent dirt getting in the oil?  I've never seen one with a hole in the cap.

How small was the drill called out in the plans?  If you're going to build models, I'm afraid you will have to resign yourself to drilling tiny holes.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on August 31, 2018, 03:58:08 PM
The idea is to counterbore the mouth of the cup so that the unthreaded part of the cap has a place to go.  When this is done, the cap will thread on so that the gap between cap and cup disappears.

In the future, remember that whenever you thread something up to a shoulder, you might want to do an undercut to eliminate the unfinished or imperfect thread immediately adjacent to the shoulder.

I guess I don't understand the logic of an oil cup cap with a hole in it.  Isn't the cap meant to prevent dirt getting in the oil?  I've never seen one with a hole in the cap.

How small was the drill called out in the plans?  If you're going to build models, I'm afraid you will have to resign yourself to drilling tiny holes.
The newer base I have for my Sherline mill has an oil cup on the table, that feeds oil down into the moving parts of the cross slides. They put a hole in the top of the cap, which I found the second time I opened it had allowed a LOT of small chips down into the cup, and into the oil tubes. Stupid design! I could see a small hole in the side as an air vent, but a dead center hole in the cap right where all the swarf lands?!   :shrug:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 31, 2018, 04:28:30 PM
Ah...my mistake. I thought you all were talking about the hole (in the guide) that the cup goes into, not the hole (in the cup) that the cap goes into.

Or...perhaps one of you was talking about one while the other one of you was talking about the other one.  ;D

I'm okay with that gap between cap and cup. To get rid of it, counterboring the cup makes sense and would have been done before tapping.
I don't have small enough boring bar (and won't make one at this point). I'm sure drilling will risk ruining the part. I'll leave things alone for now.

The hole was scaled down from 2mm to 1mm or about .039 (a #68 bit). My chuck doesn't hold that small.

On my 'to do or to get' list is a machine or something that can spin fast enough to use small drill bits.

@Chris: A hole in the side seems to make more sense but for this oiler the hole would have to go through two sets of threads and line up.

I've seen a number of members make oil caps with glass tubes and/or different caps. How do they vent?
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: mklotz on August 31, 2018, 04:40:39 PM
@Chris: A hole in the side seems to make more sense but for this oiler the hole would have to go through two sets of threads and line up.

The hole goes through the side of the cap and intersects a blind hole in the threaded portion of the cap.  The other end of this blind hole opens into the oil chamber. 
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 31, 2018, 05:15:17 PM
@Chris: A hole in the side seems to make more sense but for this oiler the hole would have to go through two sets of threads and line up.

The hole goes through the side of the cap and intersects a blind hole in the threaded portion of the cap.  The other end of this blind hole opens into the oil chamber.

That works! Is that how it's done on those oilers that some members make (glass tube or not, but a cap)?
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: mklotz on August 31, 2018, 05:32:20 PM
1st is that I don't have the equipment to make tiny holes. So the holes for the oil is a bit large. Not a biggie. This engine isn't going to run for long periods of time.

I remember you using a Sherline mill.  Surely that has the speed and chuck to handle small drills?
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on August 31, 2018, 05:49:27 PM
1st is that I don't have the equipment to make tiny holes. So the holes for the oil is a bit large. Not a biggie. This engine isn't going to run for long periods of time.

I remember you using a Sherline mill.  Surely that has the speed and chuck to handle small drills?
Marv, I am the one with the sherline, also Bill, Zee has a larger mill and lathe.
 The sherline chucks will go quite small.
Chris
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: mklotz on August 31, 2018, 05:59:28 PM
Marv, I am the one with the sherline, also Bill, Zee has a larger mill and lathe.
 The sherline chucks will go quite small.
Chris

Yes, I know that Chris.  But didn't the Zeester have a Sherline mill before he got the PM tools?
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on August 31, 2018, 06:57:12 PM
Marv, I am the one with the sherline, also Bill, Zee has a larger mill and lathe.
 The sherline chucks will go quite small.
Chris

Yes, I know that Chris.  But didn't the Zeester have a Sherline mill before he got the PM tools?
Thought it was a minimill. Could be wrong.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 31, 2018, 08:33:33 PM
I had a mini-mill and a mini-lathe. No Sherline.
Now I have a larger lathe and mill.

For years I'd thought about Sherlines. I'm still not sure why I didn't go that route.

the Zeester

"the Zeester"?  :lolb:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: mklotz on August 31, 2018, 08:46:42 PM
I had a mini-mill and a mini-lathe. No Sherline.
Now I have a larger lathe and mill.

For years I'd thought about Sherlines. I'm still not sure why I didn't go that route.


If the mini-mill provided high speed capability, why didn't you keep it?  Despite having a mill, I would never give up my Unimat for just that reason.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on August 31, 2018, 08:50:24 PM
I had a mini-mill and a mini-lathe. No Sherline.
Now I have a larger lathe and mill.

For years I'd thought about Sherlines. I'm still not sure why I didn't go that route.

the Zeester

"the Zeester"?  :lolb:
Be glad your nickname isnt 'Kee'


 :Lol:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on August 31, 2018, 11:02:43 PM
Zee, 0-1/4” drill chucks can be bought very reasonably. You can adapt them in many ways for tailstock applications

Eric
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 31, 2018, 11:07:44 PM
@Marv: I don't think the mini-mill had very high speed either. If I recall...less than 2000. Same for lathe. Same for current machines.
Not that I wish now I had kept those machines. I think they would have been handy.

@Chris: Yes, I'm glad. But I do have another nickname that my wife and kids use.
A very endearing and loving nickname that only they use when they get upset with me.
It's "turd".
Any other meaning is attributed to differing cultures, countries, states and/or territories, cities, and neighborhood homes.  ;D Not to mention certain forums.

I got two parts made today. No 'in progress' pics. Both in stainless steel.
The manifold valve stem was particularly difficult to get the outer diameter threaded. Very often, the part started twirling in the chuck and I had to back out, clean up, tighten the chuck and continue.

This leads me to a question...I use Marv's equation (or a look-up table) for finding the drill needed for tapping.
But what is the diameter needed when threading with a die?
It doesn't seem to be the outer diameter of the thread.
In this case, I was threading (with a die) for a 1/4-40. The rod was exactly 0.250 (1/4) but I found I had to shave it down a few (several) thou to thread without the part twirling.

@Eric: Just saw your post. Yes, I figured I could find a chuck that would hold smaller bits. My old one did. When I looked closer at the one I have now, I think it's intended for 1/16-ish or larger. The main issue though is RPM. I can only get to 2000 and from what I'm seeing I need much higher for small bits. I wonder if I can do something with my dremel.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on August 31, 2018, 11:47:20 PM
I've often run into the same problem on threading, and one thing I often do is file three flats onto the raw bar stock (sometimes just one) wide enough for the chuck jaws to grip on, then it holds like it would on hex stock. Even if those flats are not quite even, it wont matter as long as the turning and threading is done in one chucking. This is usually only needed on the smaller bars, threading things like 3-48 or 2-56, the larger ones seem to hold okay.

As for diameter, I usually look at the drill chart (I know, Marv does the formulas in his head, its easier for me to have it printed out) and look at the numbers in the columns  for brass and steel, and compare that to the major diameter of the thread. Then I'll take the diameter down below the major diameter about the same amount as the drilling would take it above that dimension. That seems to work well for me, for most work. If the thread is going to be under a lot of load, I'll take less off.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 01, 2018, 02:42:37 AM
As for diameter, I usually look at the drill chart (I know, Marv does the formulas in his head, its easier for me to have it printed out) and look at the numbers in the columns  for brass and steel, and compare that to the major diameter of the thread. Then I'll take the diameter down below the major diameter about the same amount as the drilling would take it above that dimension. That seems to work well for me, for most work. If the thread is going to be under a lot of load, I'll take less off.

That's what I'm looking for. Sort of. I'd like a bit more 'rule' if I can get it.  ;D
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on September 01, 2018, 03:45:57 AM
As for diameter, I usually look at the drill chart (I know, Marv does the formulas in his head, its easier for me to have it printed out) and look at the numbers in the columns  for brass and steel, and compare that to the major diameter of the thread. Then I'll take the diameter down below the major diameter about the same amount as the drilling would take it above that dimension. That seems to work well for me, for most work. If the thread is going to be under a lot of load, I'll take less off.

That's what I'm looking for. Sort of. I'd like a bit more 'rule' if I can get it.  ;D
Rule 47.4, rules are flexible...   :Lol:   well, at least some rulers are...
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: 10KPete on September 01, 2018, 03:47:03 AM
If you measure a 1/4" commercial bolt you will find that it's like .020" smaller than 1/4". What I've done over the years is to just caliper a commercial bolt and turn the material to about that.

It's sorta like a tap drill...the usually show 75% thread. Same with the male thread.

Most threads nominal diameter is to a theoretical point, not the truncated thread top.

Lookin' good Zee!

Pete
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: john mills on September 01, 2018, 08:25:34 AM
the od of the thread is the maximum dia measured over the out side  nothing thearetical about it I have not turned threads undersize  they should be the full dia .the under size commercial threads are to very low standard wide tolerance even worse imported stuff we get now from hardware stores.if the die is too hard to cut screw cut but should not be hard in small sizes i have not generally turn undersize.the top of the thread can be a flat or radius depending on what form and how it is produced.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on September 01, 2018, 12:19:23 PM
I also use the full major diameter. I think you might need to be a little more aggressive on the chuck wrench. Also check the condition of your die and don’t forget a good grade of cutting oil. I mostly use the Oatley thread cutting oil found in the plumbing section of your local hardware or DIY store. One more thing; it really helps to have a good chamfer for the die to start on. 

Eric
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 01, 2018, 01:51:31 PM
Thanks guys.

The die was newly bought and might have been used once or twice on brass. The quality may still be questionable.
Chuck was wrenched as tight as I could and cutting oil used.

Threading started well.

1/4-40 for half an inch.

After about 7 threads is when I ran into problems. To get through this I had to back out after 2 or threads, clean everything and have another go.

Is it wrong of me to believe I should have been able to thread in one go without backing off?

I know in tapping it's sometimes necessary to reverse a bit to break chips and sometimes back out all the way to clear chips.

Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: propforward on September 01, 2018, 01:56:05 PM
I always back up periodically when using a thread die - that's how I was taught anyway - to break off chips forming in the die. Same as a tap, as you say. I don't know if you should be able to just run the die all the way down, but I like to back up periodically.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: john mills on September 01, 2018, 02:03:20 PM
what is the material 1/4 by 40 tpi should cut easily. gun taps if you back off the tap will chip they are one were
should wind straight through.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 01, 2018, 02:51:24 PM
Thanks. Material was 303 stainless.

On one end I threaded 3/8" with a 4-40 with no issues but the diameter was smaller than the spec'd OD of 0.112. I was targetting 0.110 but it could have been a couple thou smaller.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: mklotz on September 01, 2018, 03:54:38 PM
My thoughts, FWIW, on threading with a die...

Stock at nominal thread size*
Healthy chamfer on leading edge of stock
Die opened if adjustable
Ensure that starting side of die (with noticeable lead-in chamfer) is facing stock
Die must be kept square to stock.  Use the front of the TS barrel to guide the die stock when starting
*If still having difficulty, remove ~0.005" from stock diameter
Use plenty of cutting oil (I prefer the smelly sulfurated stuff)
Back off every half turn to break/clear chips.

Incidentally, LMS has an interactive chart for this...

https://littlemachineshop.com/mobile/die_threading.php

For those of you who aren't afraid of a little arithmetic, their chart says...

"Die Blank Size is the Major Diameter less 10% of the Pitch.
This is about the same as common bolts."

which is a lot easier to use than going to their website whenever you want to thread a rod.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 01, 2018, 04:02:34 PM
Thanks Marv!
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 01, 2018, 04:54:11 PM
A couple of more parts - the Piston Rod Gland Nut and the Valve Rod Gland Nut.

Rounding the hex didn't go as well as hoped. It doesn't take much to be off. But I'm okay with them.

1st pic are the nuts.
2nd pic shows my setup for knocking off the corners. I'd taken a bit of rod, tapped it, and used it as a holder for the nut.

 :thinking: If there's a better way, or some hints to be more accurate, let me know.
I'd also be interested in knowing what you do to finish/polish the sides of the hex.

The worry now is whether the rods will fit. My reamers seem to be slightly undersized.  :facepalm2:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: mklotz on September 01, 2018, 05:23:38 PM
My reamers seem to be slightly undersized.

If you don't have them already, consider getting a set of "over and under" reamers.  You'll thank yourself for doing so down the line.

You can make an undersized reamer cut a smidgen bigger by putting a splinter in one of the reamer flutes.  On the rare occasions where I've tried this, I use splinters split from bamboo toothpicks (the kind they stick in your overpriced hamburger at fancy restaurants).  I prefer to use the O/U reamers whenever I can.

https://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?view=classic&ProductID=3066
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 01, 2018, 05:48:35 PM
Thanks Marv. I do have a set. Rarely used.

How does one know when to use an undersized or oversized reamer?
I can see how an oversize might be used after a nominal (or undersized) but you'd have to start with an undersized.

I suspect part of the answer is more accurate (and expensive) measuring tools.  ;D
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on September 01, 2018, 05:56:29 PM
Zee, I have used undersized reamers probably more than the oversize ones....like for a press fit for a dowel pin or similar applications.

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: 10KPete on September 01, 2018, 08:06:10 PM
Thanks Marv. I do have a set. Rarely used.

How does one know when to use an undersized or oversized reamer?
I can see how an oversize might be used after a nominal (or undersized) but you'd have to start with an undersized.

I suspect part of the answer is more accurate (and expensive) measuring tools.  ;D

Zee, do you have a decent 1" micrometer that reads 10ths on the barrel? Properly calibrated micrometers are essential for making parts to size and especially for reamers. Like any cutting tool there are tolerances and those can be measured before you use the reamer.

On-size reamers are hard because of those tolerances. Where a reamer might cut on size for one material it might cut a half 10th larger or smaller which can upset your plans for a certain fit.

I like to have on-size, a 10th under, a 10th over and one thou over. I think I only have that line up for three or four sizes because I just couldn't get the required fit any other way.

I'm talking about sizes 3/8" and under.....

A hand full of dowel pins, which also come in on, under and over sizes, are really handy for gaging holes and, with that calibrated micrometer, can get you right on.

Those gland nuts look great to my eyes.

Pete
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 01, 2018, 08:18:59 PM
Thanks Bill. Press fits hadn't occurred to me.

Yes Pete. I have a "decent" 1" micrometer. I got it many years ago for measuring electronic component leads.
Good to know that different materials can give different results. That may explain a few things I've noticed.

I'm not sure I understand a 10th under/over. +/-0.1 ? That seems awfully big.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: propforward on September 01, 2018, 08:25:00 PM
Thanks Bill. Press fits hadn't occurred to me.

Yes Pete. I have a "decent" 1" micrometer. I got it many years ago for measuring electronic component leads.
Good to know that different materials can give different results. That may explain a few things I've noticed.

I'm not sure I understand a 10th under/over. +/-0.1 ? That seems awfully big.

A tenth means 0.0001" (tenth of a thou)
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: 10KPete on September 01, 2018, 09:54:33 PM
Zee,

Actually, the feel you have developed in using the mic is just as important as the mic itself. You probably know this from measuring small copper wires. It's tough to measure soft, small, stuff! Without extreme measuring equipment, getting nice fits involves much patience and repeated measurement to see if the number you are getting are consistant.

Anyway, I'm very much enjoying your progress and very happy to see you overcoming difficulties to get 'er done.

 :cheers:

Pete
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 01, 2018, 10:47:29 PM
Thanks Stuart. Wow. A tenth of a thou! Can I ever get there? Up to now I happy dance when I'm within a thou.
Thanks Pete. Yes. Reminds me to practice some more on a gauge block I have. (If I can believe the gauge block.)

Some more progress today...and the usual 'crap moment'.

Worked on the cylinder covers. This is the 2nd go. The 1st time I'd used an index cutter to turn the bit that goes into the cylinder. But that left a fairly round edge.
This time I used a 1/8" parting tool.

1st pic shows the beginning of the process. Faced and drilled the holes for the mounting bolts through enough material to make both covers.
2nd pic shows the finished covers. What you don't see is the back of the rear cylinder cover.
I thought I'd be 'cool' and trepan a little detail. Why not? It's a cover. No hole in the center.
But I'd forgotten about the mounting bolts and made the detail a bit large. The nuts for the bolts will overlap.

If the engine runs, and/or I'm a happy camper when done, then I can go back and improve (I mean remake) some of the parts.

I figured some one (Bill?) was getting ready to poke me about a family shot.

3rd pic is what I have so far. Some parts not quite finished.

There's a second set of poorer quality in some corner of the shop.  ;D

 :cussing: I can't believe it! I left out the crosshead guide! Argh.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Brian Rupnow on September 01, 2018, 10:47:57 PM
When I am tapping or external threading, I always back the tap or die off. I go one full turn ahead, back off half a turn, then another full turn ahead, then back off 1/2 a turn. You can feel it when the chip breaks off as you are backing up that 1/2 turn.Use lots of cutting oil, and go slowly. Remember--we're not in a production shop here. Sometimes I have issues getting the die to "take hold" and cut threads. A slight taper on the end of the piece you are threading really helps.---Brian
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on September 01, 2018, 11:39:41 PM
Quote
(http://www.modelenginemaker.com/Smileys/default/cussing.gif) I can't believe it! I left out the crosshead guide! Argh.
Did you really look for it? Sure the shop gnomes didn't run off with it since you wouldn't give them any of my recipe cookies?!   :stickpoke:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: propforward on September 01, 2018, 11:47:49 PM
Those are some pretty parts. The two parts next to the penny are shiny and look super. Good stuff going on here, this will be a very nice engine.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Brian Rupnow on September 01, 2018, 11:52:23 PM
Zee--that flywheel looks familiar. Looks good!!!
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 02, 2018, 12:14:43 AM
Thanks all. I do feel kinda good.

Quote
(http://www.modelenginemaker.com/Smileys/default/cussing.gif) I can't believe it! I left out the crosshead guide! Argh.
Did you really look for it? Sure the shop gnomes didn't run off with it since you wouldn't give them any of my recipe cookies?!   :stickpoke:

No no. I know exactly where it is. Near the lathe when I was trial fitting while making the cylinder cover.

My shop gnomes (or rather gnome...or rather me) knows about your cookie recipe and prefers T's.
Apologies...but that's just how it is.
If you want her recipe...we can discuss price.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on September 02, 2018, 12:34:54 AM
Glad the other part is not missing. The family-o-parts is looking great!
 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Steamer5 on September 02, 2018, 06:53:53 AM
Hi Zee,
 Great family shot!

Looks like you are settling into this retirement lack quite well!

How about a photo or three of T ‘s cookies in the food channel......then we can run a comparison.....would be better if we all could do a taste test, but that’s likely to use up a years worth of shop funds!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Kim on September 02, 2018, 04:17:15 PM
You're making great progress, Zee!
And I love the family shot, even if one member is AWOL :)
Kim
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on September 02, 2018, 07:02:14 PM
Great family shot Zee. The parts are all looking great, including the missing crosshead guide  ;)

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 03, 2018, 10:13:09 PM
A bit more work. Since the family shot I got a few nuts and pipe nipples done, 2 of the 3 crankshaft parts, the piston rod, crosshead, and I'm nearly finished with the control rod.

The only picture of the crosshead turned out too blurry to show.

1st pic shows the 1st taper of the control rod.
2nd pic shows both tapers after a little sanding to clean it up. I was not at all happy with the finish before sanding.
3rd pic shows the control rod after squaring both ends. I still have to bring one end to size.

4th pic is my usual disaster shot. I milled one side, flipped the part over, and...here the expected text is "milled the other side to size". But my flipper didn't work and I ended up milling the same side twice.  :cussing: Might still work and might even be hidden within the crosshead. We'll see.

5th pic is a family shot showing all the new parts below the base (along with the crosshead guide that I'd forgotten in the 1st family shot).

Yes yes. I know it's not my flipper's fault. It's the flipper's controller.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: 90LX_Notch on September 03, 2018, 10:15:12 PM
Looking really good Carl.

-Bob
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Kim on September 03, 2018, 10:26:32 PM
Nice looking rod there Zee!  Love the tapering.  I'm betting you can salvage that.  You'll figure out a way :)
And if you don't, the second time goes much faster ;)
Kim
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on September 03, 2018, 10:56:56 PM
The family shots just keep getting better!


 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on September 04, 2018, 12:54:46 AM
The tapers look great. As for the flipper issue, that may be trickier. Hopefully it can be salvaged and go into the first try category, but time will tell. One thing you could do in such cases is blue or otherwise mark the four faces needing machining so you will know which have been done ....then again hindsight is 20/20.

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 04, 2018, 01:04:02 AM
As for the flipper issue, that may be trickier. Hopefully it can be salvaged and go into the first try category, but time will tell.

Indeed. One of the things that's new to me...I'm making parts and not trying to get to hung up on their being right the first time.
I have a feeling that even if they're 'right' the first time...there's always some adjusting, fettling if you will, to get them to work together.
So I'm making parts the best I can and when it comes time to assemble, if I have to remake a part (or parts), that's fine.

I'm feeling more success and having fun...and as we all know...that's the point.

So far.  ;D

As optimistic as I always try to be...there's the pessimist in me. And I do feel there's positives in having a touch of pessimism.  ;D
Sometimes called my conscience.

Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: 10KPete on September 04, 2018, 01:54:23 AM
Well said! That's the attitude that works for me, too. I'd just never thought about it enough to put it into such elegant words.

And those parts look grand!

Pete
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Kim on September 04, 2018, 05:38:27 AM
As optimistic as I always try to be...there's the pessimist in me. And I do feel there's positives in having a touch of pessimism.  ;D
Sometimes called my conscience.

Zee, even your pessimism glass is half-full!  :ROFL:

Kim
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Art K on September 05, 2018, 04:21:57 AM
Zee,
Had great relaxing weekend in the great north woods. Technology doesn't work there. Internet what's that, grrr.  New cell has no coverage either. Smart coments will have to be left unsaid due to out of placeness when I finally read them. According to the new cell all looks great. Oh did I say that we came home to find we had no phone( land line) internet ect. New router will be here Wednesday. At least I know what I'm missing.
Art

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 06, 2018, 09:46:07 PM
And there goes a tap.  :embarassed:
Pic shows the broken tip pointing to the rest of it in 3/16 hex stainless steel.
A portion was sticking out but pliers crushed it.
It's only a few inches long so I'll cut off the ruined end and use the rest.
I was surprised how little pressure it took to break but as I've mentioned before, I'm rather heavy handed.
Looking closer at it, I'm not happy with the bevel as well.

Ah well. Time to order two more taps because it will happen again.

I thought I'd also show the latest on my shop. Much yet to do but the swarf is a bit easier to control now that all machines are at one end of the room.
You'll see a shelf above the lathe but it's not very close to the chuck. Made an easy way to mount a light and keep frequently used items.
I don't think you can tell but there's a small shelf to the right of the mill on the other side of the cabinet. Handy for keeping some tools but I need to block the swarf that gets up on it.
I also want to replace the mill's light (on the rolling stand) with lights on either side that would hang down from the shelf above but I haven't found any yet.
I also intend to replace the stock storage with something move-able that would sit under one of the lab benches.
I've thought about some kind of low wall between the machine end of the shop and the rest to further control the swarf but so far it doesn't seem needed.
The biggest issue with this arrangement is that some tools are shared between machines (e.g. drill bits, tap holders, etc.) and I'm constantly walking around. Not really a bad thing as it keeps me moving. The exercise helps and standing in one location for too long tends to hurt my knees.
That adjustable hospitable table has been right handy for keeping drawings, scratch paper, etc. while I work. Easy to move out of the way.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: propforward on September 06, 2018, 09:57:32 PM
Broken taps are annoying for sure - a hazard of the hobby I guess.

I really like your workspace - very much indeed. Neat, tidy, clean. I love it.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on September 06, 2018, 10:11:08 PM
Hello Zee,

Frustrating and aggravating but can be challenging.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on September 06, 2018, 10:34:03 PM
I like the new layout Zee,though I can see where shared tools would keep you moving. Not all bad as you say.

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 06, 2018, 10:51:47 PM
Thanks guys.

Here's a shot of the other end, where when things go awry a hit of the undo key is all that's needed.  ;D

It's much more open. The previous arrangement had the lab tables coming from the right wall into the room.
The horizontal saw is a bit of a problem for space. It may go into the garage. I may replace it with a table top like the one Chris got.

There's enough space there for a 4x8 table. I'm thinking on a winter project for a roll-able table to build an HO train system. Up in the right corner is a kit.
I don't have the skill to do prototypical and I want something somewhat unique. So the idea is the layout will be a timeline of my life. Scenes from places I've lived, buildings of homes I lived in, experiences I've had.

For example, picture your mom sending you off to Italy for a Boy Scout jamboree (just after grocery shopping) and realizes she needs to send me with something.
So she hands me a box of prunes. No instructions. Ate the entire box on the day trip. The first couple of days at camp were pretty miserable.
So I've just got to have a couple of HO figures depicting that.

Homes. There's the house we lived in when our kids were born. I need to model that.

But...we'll see how it goes. I have many wild hairs...and most get plucked before they are even visible to the naked eye.
It's sad, no?

[EDIT] that poster behind the right lab bench is of "The Great Race". My kids got it for me for Christmas. A silly movie but influential when I was growing up.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: propforward on September 06, 2018, 10:57:53 PM
Oh I thinkthe HO diorama idea is simply superb. I hope you do it, but I understand the fleeting nature of ideas. It’s good to have plenty of them, though.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: gerritv on September 07, 2018, 12:05:10 AM
Quote
The biggest issue with this arrangement is that some tools are shared between machines (e.g. drill bits, tap holders, etc.) and I'm constantly walking around. Not really a bad thing as it keeps me moving. The exercise helps and standing in one location for too long tends to hurt my knees.

I avoid this somewhat by using a rolling tool cart with items such as taps, drills, parallels, collets, etc. Move it near the machine du jour and there they are within reach. Your tidy layout should make this easier to do than some shops. Mine was great that way until the 7" shaper arrived :-)

Gerrit
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: 90LX_Notch on September 07, 2018, 12:06:58 AM
Don't worry about the tap, poo happens.

That's not a shop; that's a studio.  Beautiful.

I like the timeline train set.  I had a similar idea when we got married.  I wanted to get a Lionel train set.  The engine and tender would have been detailed to represent our marriage. Then each year a car would be added that was detailed to represent  a major event of that year that occurred in our life together. Unfortunately, I never started it.

-Bob
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 07, 2018, 12:20:35 AM
Thanks Stuart.
Thanks Gerrit.
Thanks Bob.

@Bob...that's a neat idea...adding a car to represent an event in one's life. I'm going to think on that one.
That touches on the 'wish I had'. Don't let it get you down. We all have them. It usually means something else came up that seemed more important...which is probably true...but we always wish we could have done the other too.

This touches on a philosophy of life I've had since my teens. I won't mention it here...it's very dark and depressing.  ;D


Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Kim on September 07, 2018, 01:10:22 AM
Love your shop, Zee!  I like the more open feel it has now :)

Have you thought of turning the lathe around so that you stand in the same alcove to mill or to turn?  One way you face the mill, the other the lathe?  The head stock would be away from the window too, so you could have longer stock sticking out the headstock if you ever needed to.  Might save some of the pacing back and forth for drills and reamers and such.  Or maybe you'd considered it and rejected it for any number of excellent reasons.

Anyway, I just love the clean, inviting look of your shop!
Kim
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on September 07, 2018, 01:12:27 AM
I do like that computer chair!!  It's a great shop overall too of course.  How is the floor working out? It's the laminate stuff right?

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on September 07, 2018, 01:16:31 AM
That's what I have done Kim. There's maybe 5 feet between the mill and lathe and my toolbox, riser and roller cabinet are against the back wall between them. It works out well and now there is a nice overhead AC/heat vent just above that area which will be nice. Sorry for the diversion Zee.

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Dave Otto on September 07, 2018, 01:22:23 AM
I agree Kim & Bill, I have my mill, Lathe and primary work bench just a couple steps apart. This works great for a one man shop, but can get a little tight with more than one person.

Dave
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 07, 2018, 02:06:48 AM
Hmmm...that's an idea. i.e. turning the lathe around to face the mill. But I don't where my tools, tool chest, work area would go. I need to think on that.

As for the 'computer chair'...that used to be T's. It's comfy but I always get the feeling that I'm sinking. I'm constantly checking to raise it. But it does have a feature where I can I lean it back and nap!

The bummer about an 'inviting'shop"...there is swarf on the floor. So no one comes in. Particularly sad when my granddaughter wants to see me. She generally runs around in socks or bare feet so I'd warned her about stepping in the shop and getting metal in her feet. Love her...she stops at the door and calls for me.

I do want people (not necessarily all of you  ;D) to visit so I need to figure out how to keep it safe for them.

@Bill...re: the floor. I like the looks. Seems easy to sweep up well enough although some bits of metal seem to get caught in cracks. I can't say it's the optimal floor for a shop but I'm pretty happy with it. (But it's just a year old.) Certainly, at my desk with a chair rolling around...I haven't seen any real wear or damage. I would have preferred an absolutely smooth vinyl floor. This has itty bitty ridges to simulate a 'wood' floor but they seem small enough to sweep. At this point...it is what it is.

When I'm working (playing) there's no one else in the shop. While my relatives and friends are interested in why I'm doing...they have no interest watching me turn a part. It's much like watching paint dry for them.  :ROFL:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: 10KPete on September 07, 2018, 02:32:20 AM
When I get the mill finished and on it's 'cart/stand' it will be 90* to the lathe and 5' from the headstock so everything is right to hand. So I'm watching what's going on here!

I've never allowed shoe-less people in the shop plus, until recently :'( kept it clean so the dogs wouldn't get chips in their paws. The problem is my shoes, but I have to carpet-like entrance runners that are excellent chip wipers.

I'm very envious of the clean shops I see here.... :Love:

Pete
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Art K on September 07, 2018, 04:02:30 AM
Zee,
The shop looks great, open and airy. Smart kid stopping at the door and calling you. Safe from theoretical flying parts.
Art

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: kvom on September 07, 2018, 12:23:36 PM
Shop looks good, almost as clean as Dave's.

For tapping SS I go with a slightly larger hole as work hardening is always a danger.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 07, 2018, 02:15:44 PM
I had tried to set up the mill and lathe to be 90 degrees to each other but more space would have been needed from the rest of the room.
There may come a time where I don't need/want that space and I can move the lathe.
But the windows represent another problem.

As for the tap...I did use a slightly larger hole but I think what happened is the tap bottomed out just as I gave another twist.
I thought I still had a ways to go but it was poor practice I think.
I was holding the tap with one hand and rotating the chuck with the other. This is a larger chuck and I'm thinking its inertia/mass was enough to break the tap.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on September 07, 2018, 06:06:17 PM
Hello Zee,

That is what I did when I re-arranged my shop, placed the Mill 90 degrees to the lathe and put the metal shelving that holds most of the tooling in the corner. This sure works better for me.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Art K on September 07, 2018, 06:56:09 PM
Zee,
I have to admit that the only taps I tap free hand are big ones. Small ones I always use a center. Knowing where you went wrong you can be mindful of that next time. I sometimes count turns to get a specific thread depth. That assumes a fixed non moving part. In my own shop I would love to move things around but the machines dictate where I can put them in a 22 X 8 foot room, Not the first time I wished I'd added on 2 feet extra. The beautiful thing about your shop is that if you don't like it you can move things around. Just remember where they are so when you go out in the dark you don't stub your toe. :ROFL:
Art
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 07, 2018, 07:08:58 PM
@Thomas...yes I could do the same but I would extend a bit more into the rest of the shop. For now I need that space. Once I don't, then I'll probably rearrange.

@Art...I didn't mean to imply I tapped free-hand. I was using the tailstock to guide the tap holder. The tables and benches are pretty easy to move around. The machines and lab benches are more difficult. Those lab benches are pretty heavy.

Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Art K on September 07, 2018, 07:18:35 PM
Zee,
Quote
The tables and benches are pretty easy to move around. The machines and lab benches are more difficult. Those lab benches are pretty heavy.
Yeah that's why my machines are a permanent fixture right where they are. Both are about 1200 lbs each. I have rollers I bolt on to the lathe but I have to rent a 1500 lbs engine hoist for the mill, done that 3 times. I'm glad to hear I was mistaken thinking you tapped it freehand. :lolb: By the way it's great to have internet again. :whoohoo:
Art
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on September 07, 2018, 07:52:12 PM
Busted taps are a pain in the Royal arse and I still have a bit of one hidden underneath one of my first builds. Back in the day (love being old enough to say that) I’ve power tapped a lot of larger diameter holes using a mag base drill. If we had to tap stainless, we would tack weld a plate to it that would hold the mag base. And that’s when I learned to really try and watch the flutes, almost to point of mesmerizing on them, if I see any deflection, I stop and either back out or determine if I’m at the bottom. And , I still focus on the flutes today, even at our sizes and even when hand tapping. Marking a tap with a Sharpie to the drilled depth will also give you an idea of where you are. On the shop rearranging: have you consulted a Feng Shui expert. After reading the other thread you’ve started; might be able to help us all :shrug:. Since you are among the glorious retired now, you should have plenty of time to research and give us conclusive feedback. The build is coming along very well and comparing family shots; we both seem to be at about the same spot “off of the side of the side road” (trivia teaser :thinking:) Forty year class reunion tomorrow night and guess who is donating the food and beer  :facepalm:. I just love your threads: I can ramble on about anything  :lolb: :lolb:. Looking great Zee: carry on.

Eric
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 08, 2018, 09:54:03 PM
Nuts. I mean, I got nuts. I mean, I made nuts.
I looked at Dave Otto's nut making and that was a big help.

Started with some 3/16 303 stainless steel. Center drilled, drilled, and tapped. (I had another tap!!!)

1st pic is my set up. With that, I could face and bevel, then swap the cutter out and part off without having to adjust the compound's angle.
I sneaked up on the bevel with the aid of a magnifier. (Not while turning. I turned, shut down, looked, then started again.)
Tip: re-thread after facing.

2nd pic shows a tool I made to hold the half-done nuts in the lathe so I could face the other side and bevel it.

I was surprised how quick (in my world) it went.

3rd pic shows 5 nuts. Not perfectly square and I'm not sure why. For one side it could have been that the hex rod wasn't very straight. For the other side I'm suspecting it's because the nut wasn't square to the jig.

But I'm pretty happy. First time I beveled both sides without using a file.

4th pic shows the rotary table being used to start on the eccentric strap. Overall it went well. This is actually the 2nd try. On the 1st one I'd moved the table before resetting the rotation.

I'm not sure this is an appropriate method but so far it's working for me. Stewart had used round bar but all I had was plate.

5th pic shows what I have so far. After this I think I can follow what Stewart did.
Still need to drill the two sides for the bolts, drill/thread for the rod, bore, and split.

I'm continually surprised by how small this engine is.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on September 08, 2018, 10:15:48 PM
Nice Carl!


One thing I do differetly on making nuts is to face, drill the first side, then use a file to add the bevel. Then part off just partway, back out the tool, and use a small triangular file to do the back side bevel, then part the rest of the way. This way the sides of the nut will be parallel, and the filed bevel works. For larger ones I like your method better, but for small ones this is quicker and consistant.


 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: 10KPete on September 08, 2018, 10:42:00 PM
Making nuts or similar I face drill, tap, parting tool not all the way thru, then chamfer both 'ends' of that first nut and the end of what will be the next one, then finish parting off. The only second op is chamfering the hole on the back side which is either lathe or drill press, depending...

Chamfering the hex is done with a 60* treading tool, 'cause 45* is too steep, outside edge of hex chamfer is slightly, barely, past the hex itself.

On occaision I will tap after parting off.

Pete
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 08, 2018, 11:31:15 PM
Very interesting Chris and Pete.
That's the way I had been doing it. Parting part way and using a file.

My problem is that I'm not very good with a file and wanted something a little more 'predictable'.

I'm not sure I was clear about my process...

a) faced, center drilled, drilled, and tapped for some length (enough to get 3 or 4 nuts).
b) beveled (sneaking in by looking with magnifier to stop the bevel as it got past the hex edges, i.e. got a full 360 degree of machining)
c) parted off a little oversize
d) re-threaded (because the parting off screwed up the thread)
e) repeated 'b' to 'd' for the 3 or 4 nuts

g) for each nut, mounted it on a jig in the chuck
h) faced to length (basically the amount I'd left it oversized)
i) beveled as before
j) repeated 'g' to 'i' for each of the nuts

Steps 'f' and 'h' were a small happy dance.

I suspect there may be different operations depending on the size of the nut.
I consider these pretty small. 3/16 hex. 1/16 thick.
I measured them afterwards and was happy to be close. About half came in at .058 and the other at 0.61.

Just a note about filing...I do that certainly...but be very careful. The other day the file got caught in the parting groove and scared me half to death.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Kim on September 08, 2018, 11:38:47 PM
Nice nuts, Zee!

I've used a very similar procedure for making nuts.

And YES!  You do want to be careful that the file doesn't get caught.  Once I had the end of the file catch the edge of the 3 jaw chuck. THAT scared me.  I pictured having a file sticking out of my gut!  I've been MUCH more careful since then!

Kim
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: propforward on September 08, 2018, 11:49:30 PM
Very nice work again Carl!

Those few times I use a file in the lathe (did today as it happens) I make a point of standing to the side, out of the path of the file - so should it get caught and flung, it doesn't hit me. It's one of the first things the metalwork master showed us in school. Can't remember what he said, but it made the lesson stick anyway.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on September 08, 2018, 11:52:02 PM
Thats why I use a triangular file, never had it try and catch in the narrow parting groove (what I mean by small file, mine is about 1/4" across the flats of the triangle, not a needle file). A thin file could grab. Also just use the middle of the file, not the tip, so if you do brush the chuck jaws you dont catch the end and fling it back at you. I just use one flat of the file, pulling it out against the to-be-parted nut, not pushing it straight down to do both nuts at once. Gotta use care around your nuts...   :o
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: jonesie on September 09, 2018, 12:08:48 AM
you want to make sure you have a handle on the tang of the file also.i watched a co worker have one catch and run the tang thru the palm of his hand and come out the top of his hand.he was lucky it missed everything going thru but took a real long time to heal.good idea working around machines to keep your tetanus shot up to date.cheap ins.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 09, 2018, 02:22:16 AM
you want to make sure you have a handle on the tang of the file also.i watched a co worker have one catch and run the tang thru the palm of his hand and come out the top of his hand.he was lucky it missed everything going thru but took a real long time to heal.good idea working around machines to keep your tetanus shot up to date.cheap ins.

Quite so. I can't say I'm doing the right thing so I'm being extra careful. Like Stuart said...I stand off to the side. I won't catch it in the gut...but I don't want it in the hand either.

When I started this hobby...the first thing I did was get a tetanus shot. Hadn't had one in years. A couple of years ago I sliced my hand open (not related to machining) and got another.
I do sometimes wonder about the need. Tetanus is associated with horses and manure. As well as wounds not open to the air. I sometimes think the risk is low in the shop...but I won't chance it. A shot is cheap and easy. That's also why I take the flu shot every year. Maybe it works...maybe it doesn't. I've only missed one (they were out) since they started with those horrible air guns. I tend to think it builds the immunity anyway. I don't think I've had the flu (what I think is the flu) since I was a kid.

Now I hit 65...have to think about vaccines against pneumonia. That stuff scares me too.

Yes...that kid you see to the left...is just the inner me. I'm decaying otherwise. But not in spirit!!
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on September 09, 2018, 02:29:56 AM
I'm getting a flu shot Monday. Already been a few cases reported locally. Sure seems early though.

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: propforward on September 09, 2018, 02:42:23 AM
It's worth doing. I got real flu earlier this year. Took me down for about 4 weeks, and a bunch more to get back up to full activity.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 09, 2018, 06:33:24 AM
I'm getting a flu shot Monday. Already been a few cases reported locally. Sure seems early though.

Already?!  :o
That does seem early.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: kvom on September 09, 2018, 01:04:17 PM
My strategy for nuts is to call AME and use the Amex tool.   :facepalm2:

I've never had to use or make square nuts.   :shrug:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 09, 2018, 08:37:55 PM
Finished the eccentric strap.
After a little sanding of the sides and a little turning, it runs smoothly with no play.

I shouldn't have made the holes for the bolts as large as I did. I went for free fit and probably should have gone for close fit.
One of the holes just barely broke through its arm. Not very noticeable.

The bolts themselves were a problem to make. I need some suggestions on how to hold them so the ends can be cleaned up.

I'll wait to make more nuts and bolts until I see how the engine comes out.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on September 09, 2018, 09:15:34 PM
What is wrong with the bolts, what needs cleaning up?
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 09, 2018, 09:42:29 PM
What is wrong with the bolts, what needs cleaning up?

The ends.

Well perhaps there's a better way to do what I wanted.
I turned about 1 1/4" of .125 stainless to about .105. (This was done by having only a little bit of rod out, turning it, pulling a little more out, etc.)
Used a file to put a chamfer on then used a die and threaded it.
After threading, since so much was sticking out I couldn't use a parting tool to get the length I wanted so I used a hacksaw.
Now the end is jagged and crappy. I tried filing it but that didn't go that well.
The 2nd bolt also had to be cut off...so it ended up with two bad ends (and a little too short).

I'm thinking I should have taken some scrap, drilled/tapped it, and used it as a jig.
Put the bolt in and mill the end hoping it keeps the thread from being damaged to much.
But it wouldn't be very 'domed'.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on September 09, 2018, 09:48:41 PM
Are they more like studs with a nut on both ends?  If so put a piece of scrap round stock in the lathe, drill and tap it to match the bolts (studs), then use a jam nut to hold them in to face them off in the lathe. Or am I missing something?

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: propforward on September 09, 2018, 09:49:28 PM
You could turn the bolt diameter to length, thread the end, then part off behind the hex with some extra length.

If you took a piece of rod, drilled a close fitting hole through it to suit the bolt diameter, slit it to make a simple collet - then you could hold the bolt in your lathe chuck, clamping only the unthreaded part of the bolt, and finish the dome on the end of the hex.

There's probably an easier way of doing it though, but that would work.

Overall though I think that eccentric assembly is looking really good.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 09, 2018, 10:23:22 PM
Thanks Bill and Stuart.

Both ideas would work.

Thinking a little more (always insufficient but always a good idea)...
The eccentric strap's arm is on the order of 0.34" Overall length is about 0.528"
So another approach is to cut the rod to length and thread both ends sufficiently for the bolts.
That is, thread each end for .125" and I should still have enough in the middle to hold onto.

Someday...collet chuck.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: 90LX_Notch on September 09, 2018, 11:04:45 PM
Which end of the bolt is the problem?

-Bob
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 09, 2018, 11:50:55 PM
Which end of the bolt is the problem?

The end that was hacksawed. After that, I didn't know how to clean up.

I think I've got it now.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Kim on September 10, 2018, 05:38:15 AM
Well, when you get your collet chuck, you can use that to hold the threaded end while you clean up the head.

But, a quick and simple thing I did before I had a collet chuck was to run a few nuts up on the threaded end and butt them up together nice and tight and hold the nuts in the 3-jaw chuck.  Since you're just cleaning up the end it doesn't really have to run concentrically.  It'll clean up just fine that way.  But this probably wouldn't work for you if you didn't thread them up most of the way.

KIm
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: jonesie on September 10, 2018, 02:00:28 PM
hi zee,you could also wrap a thin piece of shim stock around the threads and lightly clamp them in the 3 jaw and take light cuts to face off,then you can run the tap back over the threads. you will really like a collet chuck you will use it alot. good luck
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: kvom on September 11, 2018, 12:33:59 AM
hi zee,you could also wrap a thin piece of shim stock around the threads and lightly clamp them in the 3 jaw and take light cuts to face off,then you can run the tap back over the threads. you will really like a collet chuck you will use it alot. good luck

I use soda cans for this shim.  Cuts easily with scissors.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 11, 2018, 01:17:38 AM
hi zee,you could also wrap a thin piece of shim stock around the threads and lightly clamp them in the 3 jaw and take light cuts to face off,then you can run the tap back over the threads. you will really like a collet chuck you will use it alot. good luck

I use soda cans for this shim.  Cuts easily with scissors.

Soda? I bought some cheap beer specifically for this purpose.
A stupid mistake.
I could have had GOOD beer AND shims.

P.S. My favorite beer doesn't come in cans. Shimming with glass is not a good idea. Not at all.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 13, 2018, 11:15:30 PM
1st pic shows 2 identical parts. What an achievement! They are identical in every way...including the boo-boo.
2nd pic shows the boo-boo. The holes aren't square to the faces.  :cussing:

It had been a while since I drilled small holes into stainless. I forgot and had no support under the part, so it tilted when drilling pressure was applied.
For the 2nd part, I squared up some sacrificial aluminum as a support. But to find the spot to drill, I had it sticking out of the vice a little (i.e. too much) so I can use the edge finder.
So both the part and the support tilted when I drilled.

Now it's time for the 3rd try. Beauty. I can't lose.  ;D
I either get the part right...or I get a 3rd identical part.

Yes yes. A 3rd identical part may relate to the definition of insanity...but I won't know and I'll be happy.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on September 14, 2018, 12:27:10 AM
You'll get it Zee. Nice looking parts otherwise  :)

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: gerritv on September 14, 2018, 12:44:09 AM
I donate parts such as those to my wife/s paper weight collection. Unless I can salvage them of course.

Try running a reamer through them at perpendicular. The slight gap can be taken care of with silver solder. Just need a jig to keep the rods perpendicular.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 14, 2018, 02:21:36 AM
@Bill...oh I'll get it. It helps when you boo-boo and you know why. Makes it much easier to correct. More difficult when things go awry and I'm left scratching my head (i.e. dome scratching).

@gerrtiv...Not sure that would work. I'd reamed the holes already. Most likely the part will work well enough but I'm not happy with it.
I just noticed your sign off..."Don't confuse activity with progress"...that should be mine.  ;D

I've probably learned the most on this project. Some parts made but not done...some parts made but don't fit...but when assembly time comes I can remake or adjust

I'm learning that it's not about the engine and learning...it's about the parts and learning. (Obvious to many of you but not all.)
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on September 14, 2018, 02:31:40 AM
Zee, I know the part is small, but it still looks large enough to use the edge finder even with the part centered in the vise jaws.

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 14, 2018, 02:50:03 AM
Zee, I know the part is small, but it still looks large enough to use the edge finder even with the part centered in the vise jaws.

? Not sure what you mean. I did use the edge finder to find the X and Y. But to find the X, I had the part sticking out a bit from the vise. That created a bit of a lever.
I'm thinking if I had the part a bit proud of the vise then I could still find the edge, the part would have been more secure, and the the chance of tilting would have been less.

But...thinking about your renovation post...I think I'll step out of my shop 6 feet and have an ice cream sandwich.  :lolb:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on September 14, 2018, 03:01:58 AM
Couldn't you find the "x" edge even with the part totally inside the vise jaws? The  finder is only .200" dia. Plus enough to offset. The part looks that large from the picture.

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 14, 2018, 03:10:03 AM
Couldn't you find the "x" edge even with the part totally inside the vise jaws? The  finder is only .200" dia. Plus enough to offset. The part looks that large from the picture.

Good point. The part is .4375 wide so the finder should be able to fit. I probably thought it was too close and went the easy route.
I can either raise the part above the vise or go ahead and use the finder inside the vise.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: 10KPete on September 14, 2018, 03:11:19 AM
One need not run the edge finder on the part. One of the vise jaws can be used....

Pete
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on September 14, 2018, 03:16:20 AM
Correct Pete for the "y" axis.  I am thinking zee was trying to find the "x" edge though, which can still be done inside the jaws even if the sacrificial support extends beyond the ends of the part.

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: 10KPete on September 14, 2018, 03:28:19 AM
Ahh! Quite right, Bill.

Keep at it Zee, you're doing quite well!

Pete
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 14, 2018, 05:35:23 AM
Yep. That's exactly it. I ran the edge finder against the vise jaw for Y and the part itself for X.

I will confess the parts were not identical other than in the sense both had tilted.
The one with the support didn't tilt as much...and may even still be usable.
It was more about learning about support and pressure.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Jo on September 14, 2018, 06:23:25 AM
:headscratch: Why did that happen Zee?

How did you machine it?  :noidea:

Jo
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Jasonb on September 14, 2018, 07:29:11 AM
When you say you had it sticking out the vice was the out the top or out the side, if out the side then that is most likely why it moved. Move it to the middle or if it must stick out the side put a matching piece of something at the opposite side so the moving jaw does not twist when tightened.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Craig DeShong on September 15, 2018, 09:09:27 PM
Probably time to invest in a set of THIN paralells.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 15, 2018, 09:35:37 PM
The part was sticking out the side (and yes I know about having something on the other side).
The sacrificial piece came from the scrap box and wasn't high enough for the part to be proud of the vise.
That would have been better. Then the whole part would have been supported after finding the edge and during drilling.
(The part was supported in this case but the sacrificial bit was also sticking out. I think the whole thing tilted.)

Keep in mind too...I got scared off of being so heavy handed so I may have been too light. This was steel and I may have been able to increase pressure.

How thin are thin parallels? If they are are 1/16 or more then they'd interfere with the drills and reamers.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: kvom on September 15, 2018, 09:49:30 PM
I have 4 sets of parallels.  Standard set is 1/4", then 1/8, and 1/16, plus a 3" long set of 1/8" for us with precision machinist vise.  The last three sets are all from LMS.

You can remove the parallels if well clamped when you need to drill.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on September 15, 2018, 09:49:43 PM
My 'thin' ones are 1/8", sometimes on thin parts I will use a thin metal ruler.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Dave Otto on September 15, 2018, 09:55:34 PM
Hey Zee

Keep in mind you don't need to use your piece part to find the edges. as indicated before you can use the vise jaw for the Y. What I typically do, is to use my vise stop and put a 123 block in the vise against the stop, then find my X&Y using the ground surfaces of the 123 block. This way you won't have to drop down between the jaws of the vise to do your edge finding. The hardened and ground block will also give more consistent results from your edge finder. depending on your vise you may need to set the 123 block on parallels to bridge the gap in the center of the vise.

My thin parallels are .03" thick.


Dave
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on September 15, 2018, 10:30:05 PM
Why does it need to be proud of the top of the vise jaws Zee
 That is where you are losing me. If the part is .4375" front to back, the is enough to use the edge finder between the jaws unless it's a .500" finder.

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 15, 2018, 11:17:59 PM
My parallels are 1/8". If that's thin...then they are too thick. And like I'd mentioned, 1/16" would have been too thick.

@Bill: You're correct. The part needn't be proud of the vise. As Dave mentioned...I could have used the edges of the vise jaws. For which I'm kicking myself because I've used the edge of the vise jaw several times in this build. Sometimes you just get an idea of how things are going supposed to go and don't listen to that little voice that says "did you even try to think of other ways?"

@Dave: .03 parallels would have worked.

Actually, as I was cleaning out the gutters a little while ago...I remembered. When I had my mini-mill, I'd made some soft jaws for my vise with a little ledge. Such little ledge acts like very thin parallels and would have ensured the part wouldn't tilt.

It's been on my list to make a set of soft jaws for the vise (now a different one since I got the bigger mill) but I just haven't got around to it.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on September 15, 2018, 11:31:47 PM
Zee, I wasn't trying to be critical at all, just trying to understand what happened and why. Believe me, I have done the same thing and learned the hard way.

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: 10KPete on September 15, 2018, 11:42:17 PM
The steel strap banding that is used to bundle things like wood is a very useful thing around the shop. It's quite springy but is easily bent. When bent into a corrugated snakey thing it works great for a spacer/parallel under parts in a vise. And if you hit it with a drill it's no loss.

Pete
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 15, 2018, 11:44:08 PM
Zee, I wasn't trying to be critical at all, just trying to understand what happened and why. Believe me, I have done the same thing and learned the hard way.

I hadn't taken it that way at all. You're a teacher. To teach, you have to get the facts.

And yes...I take solace in the fact that everyone has pretty much been down the same road of learning.

Just saw your post Pete. I also use foam. Messy, but cheap and easy.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Kim on September 16, 2018, 12:12:36 AM
Zee,
I've got a set of 1/32" wide parallels.   These come in handy for things like that. My only problem is that they fall down, so you have to find something to set between them to keep them upright.  The springy corrugated snaky thing that Pete described works well for that.  I make them out of old pop cans.

There's also those wavy parallels that might have worked for you.  But a work piece has to be long enough to span a full wave or it won't stay up on those :)

Kim
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 16, 2018, 01:18:13 AM
I've got a set of 1/32" wide parallels.   These come in handy for things like that. My only problem is that they fall down, so you have to find something to set between them to keep them upright.  The springy corrugated snaky thing that Pete described works well for that.  I make them out of old pop cans.

1/32" wide parallels would have been handy in many cases. As for falling down...I use foam to keep the parallels I have from falling down. I wish I could find the picture of where I got the foam from. It was a Halloween foam pumpkin head that I tore up into pieces. Worked great. Given Halloween is next month...it might be a good time to replenish my supply.

Darn. The kids are grown and out of the house. I'll have to steal from my grand-daughter.

I can do that.

Well maybe not steal. But trade for a fudgesicle (which she loves), or a bowl of ice cream...or just be decent and ask.  :lolb:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: 10KPete on September 16, 2018, 01:25:44 AM
Just to clarify, I meant that the snakey thing is used as the parallel...
I wish I had some pics....
Pete
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Craig DeShong on September 25, 2018, 08:21:52 PM
Zee,
I've got a set of 1/32" wide parallels.   These come in handy for things like that. My only problem is that they fall down, so you have to find something to set between them to keep them upright.  The springy corrugated snaky thing that Pete described works well for that.  I make them out of old pop cans.

There's also those wavy parallels that might have worked for you.  But a work piece has to be long enough to span a full wave or it won't stay up on those :)

Kim

Yep.  The 1/32:aren't used much but when you need them that are great !
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Art K on September 26, 2018, 02:40:31 AM
I just thought I'd throw this in the mix. When you're machining something small on parallels packing peanuts work great as a spacer to hold the parallels apart.
Art
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Flyboy Jim on September 26, 2018, 03:14:14 AM
I just thought I'd throw this in the mix. When you're machining something small on parallels packing peanuts work great as a spacer to hold the parallels apart.
Art

 :ThumbsUp: Good tip Art. I use them all the time. Cheap and easy to cut to the size needed.

Jim
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on September 26, 2018, 03:22:39 AM
I just thought I'd throw this in the mix. When you're machining something small on parallels packing peanuts work great as a spacer to hold the parallels apart.
Art

 :ThumbsUp: Good tip Art. I use them all the time. Cheap and easy to cut to the size needed.

Jim
Neat idea, cheap and plentiful.  But do they come in metric?   :Lol:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Kim on September 26, 2018, 05:39:39 AM
I just thought I'd throw this in the mix. When you're machining something small on parallels packing peanuts work great as a spacer to hold the parallels apart.
Art

 :ThumbsUp: Good tip Art. I use them all the time. Cheap and easy to cut to the size needed.

Jim
Neat idea, cheap and plentiful.  But do they come in metric?   :Lol:

No, unfortunately not.  But if you look through your packing peanuts carefully, you can find both left handed and right handed ones, which can come in handy!  :lolb:
Kim
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Jasonb on September 26, 2018, 07:21:48 AM
I used to use a steel rull packed up at each end beyond the vice for packing thin work but a set of wavey parallels do the job now and they don't fall over or need spacing. The squash down to about 0.015 - 0.020"

(https://www.model-engineer.co.uk/sites/7/images/member_albums/44290/812735.jpg)

Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Jo on September 26, 2018, 08:25:21 AM
Double sided sticky tape: I also use it to hold bits of thin Ali to chuck/vice jaws to protect the work  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Art K on September 26, 2018, 12:01:59 PM
Kim,
I hate to correct you but they do come in metric, just like the metric adjustable wrench made by Cresent. :lolb:
Art
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on September 26, 2018, 12:14:01 PM
I used to use a steel rull packed up at each end beyond the vice for packing thin work but a set of wavey parallels do the job now and they don't fall over or need spacing. The squash down to about 0.015 - 0.020"

(https://www.model-engineer.co.uk/sites/7/images/member_albums/44290/812735.jpg)
I never knew the wavy ones would compress down. That would be great for thin bar.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on September 26, 2018, 12:40:16 PM
You guys are lucky. Hoard your supply of peanuts!! Most shippers I deal with have changed over to the Sealed Air packing.

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 26, 2018, 04:30:40 PM
You guys are lucky. Hoard your supply of peanuts!! Most shippers I deal with have changed over to the Sealed Air packing.

Bill


So true Bill. It's very hard to 'find a peanut' these days.  ;D

I didn't know the wavy parallels compress either. Mighty handy.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on September 26, 2018, 07:14:01 PM
You guys are lucky. Hoard your supply of peanuts!! Most shippers I deal with have changed over to the Sealed Air packing.

Bill
Yeah, love those, they throw the item in the bottom of a box with one small air pillow thingy, just seems to make it bounce around the inside of the box more. At least its easy to clean out the box...
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on September 27, 2018, 12:14:04 AM
Yeah, aside from use as keeping parallels apart, packing peanuts are a PITA!!!

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Art K on September 27, 2018, 03:33:04 AM
Bill,
I cant agree with you more. More often than not someone with an antique British car stops of at the UPS store with the greasy, oily, leaking shocks they are then packed with peanuts and taped shut. I open box hold it over trash can, try to get rid of peanuts not shocks ect.... :wallbang: :hammerbash: A pair of 15 pound shocks and the lightweight peanuts don't play well together well.
Art
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 06, 2018, 07:08:32 PM
Zee--what's happening with your build. It seems to have went very quiet lately. Hope all is well there.---Brian
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on October 07, 2018, 01:06:32 AM
Zee--what's happening with your build. It seems to have went very quiet lately. Hope all is well there.---Brian

Thanks Brian. All is very well. Sidetracked for the moment. I'll be back to it soon. 
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on October 07, 2018, 01:19:22 AM
I can relate Zee. Also hoping to get back to engines soon.

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Jo on October 07, 2018, 09:11:10 AM
I know the feeling this retirement lark takes up a lot of time  :Lol:

Jo
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: fumopuc on October 07, 2018, 09:33:40 AM
My start of this special lark is scheduled now for 1th of November 2020, so I hope to learn from all of you how to use (enjoy) it the best way.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on October 07, 2018, 12:33:29 PM
My start of this special lark is scheduled now for 1th of November 2020, so I hope to learn from all of you how to use (enjoy) it the best way.
Start your list of fancy and favorite engines, vehicles, machines, stock up on material and castings, tools...
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Jo on October 07, 2018, 04:47:25 PM
My start of this special lark is scheduled now for 1th of November 2020, so I hope to learn from all of you how to use (enjoy) it the best way.
Start your list of fancy and favorite engines, vehicles, machines, stock up on material and castings, tools...

And try to get all your household DIY done before you retire   :paranoia:

Jo
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Stuart on October 07, 2018, 05:59:14 PM
Achim

Take it one who has 21 year experience in this matter ( I retired at 50) you will wonder how you had time to go to w**K

Enjoy it but keep your brain cells active learn some new things I have learned to use cad/cam for my CNC

The most noticeable thing is the speed of time now seems to obay a square law

Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: gary.a.ayres on October 08, 2018, 10:33:27 PM
Carl - have just read this whole thread. You are on quite a journey of learning. Feels familiar!

Keep at it, keep enjoying. I look forward to seeing the finished engine...

gary
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: gary.a.ayres on October 08, 2018, 10:40:28 PM

PS I really like the flywheel. I may use your thread as a reference when I get to making flywheels...
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on October 27, 2018, 06:16:19 PM
Thanks for the comments!
A quick update...

Just back from a 35 day road trip.
Started just outside Philly, saw all the folks in Missouri, then Texas for a brother-in-law, California for another brother-in-law, saw the ocean, then back through Missouri to home.
Stopped at many sites, parks, monuments.

Still married. Still want to be married to the same person.  ;D

The trip restored some faith for me in the country. We met many fine and good people.
It's always been the case that if all you do is read/listen to the news...it's biased. I'm not saying it's bad or referring to what's been said lately about the media. It's always been naturally biased due to the suppliers wanting to make money and giving us (the consumers) what we want. It's always good to get out and see some of the world (this forum being a part of that).

Unfortunately, my laptop got destroyed. I thought I had backed up prior to the trip but apparently I've lost the last 5 months of data.
I'm currently trying to set up a new computer and that will take me a while so I still won't be here very much.

If I'm lucky, a buddy of mine will be able to grab my data off the old hard drive (whereas I was not able to).

I've been in touch with a few members during the trip and I owe some responses to some of them.
Hopefully I'm back up to speed in a week or two.


Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: 10KPete on October 27, 2018, 06:36:27 PM
Welcome back!! I wondered why it was so quiet around here. Thought maybe the elves had carried you off somewhere...

Looking forward to seeing more work on your engine. Or whatever you're working on....

Pete
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on October 27, 2018, 06:39:25 PM
Glad you had a good trip Zee. Good to have you back.

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Kim on October 27, 2018, 06:54:39 PM
Welcome back, Zee!

Glad you had a good time!  It is good to get out and see that the world isn't as bad as its made out to be sometimes, eh?

Nice to see you back!
Kim
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on October 27, 2018, 07:03:11 PM
Welcome back!!


And I believe the locked-in-the-basement-by-shop-gnomes story more than the trip story!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on October 27, 2018, 07:33:47 PM
Hello Zee,

Should have stopped by my shop when you were in Texas, free cookies and drinks  :stir:

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Art K on October 29, 2018, 12:29:07 AM
Zee,
Glad to hear that you are back. Fern & I did our own little trip, Not nearly a extensive as yours, but we did make it from WI to Ames IA. celebrating our 20th anniversary. While on the Boone & Scenic Valley Railway's dinner train we saw that renewing of faith in America as a young couple proposed beside me.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10019/20181019_120739.jpg)
Now I am just hoping this bugger wasn't ransacking your shop while you were out, I'm just in the photo for scale, a quarter won't show up with this guy.
Art
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on October 29, 2018, 12:47:28 AM
Wow, I want the shop that guy goes with!!
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Art K on October 29, 2018, 12:48:54 AM
 :lolb: :lolb: :lolb:
Art
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: 10KPete on October 29, 2018, 02:34:15 AM
 :o     I like!!

Pete
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: propforward on October 29, 2018, 01:45:39 PM
but we did make it from WI to Ames IA.

I hope you went to The Mucky Duck pub for fish and chips. Best and most authentic fish and chips in the states. Heartily recommended.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on October 29, 2018, 09:35:20 PM
Thanks everyone for the welcome back.

No joy in getting my data off the hard drive. My buddy says the electronics is toast.
That's four months of photos, CAD, financial, etc. gone.

I can recreate most of the CAD and financial stuff. The photos are a loss though (other than what I posted here).
But I don't remember what many of the checks/charges in the finances were for.

I should come clean here and confess my sin...er, sins...

Normally, my laptop sits on top of a stand on my desk. Somewhat safer when drinks are spilled.
On vacation however, the laptop was simply on a table. A table that was already loaded such that little space was available.
Too little space for my usual vodka on ice.
I don't know what my laptop prefers, but it isn't vodka. Makes me wonder what I'm doing to myself.

Now I would have sworn I had backed up before taking the trip. A smart thing to do...yes?
But no...a backup doesn't exist. Worse...I was apparently lax in my monthly backup since April.
I'm thinking I was having too much fun being retired.
I had hoped that perhaps the backup went into a sub-folder but no. If I did back it up...it got backed up into the trash which is just as effective as not backing up at all.

A few months into the future the loss will all be forgotten. (Sigh...I just remembered all of the bookmarks I've lost too.)

Gotta ask though...does anyone think there's any chance of retrieving the data? I know there are services that might do that but it's not worth the bucks.
I'm wondering if the electronics can be replaced (although it doesn't look like it).

No ranting here...just expressing my sadness. Thanks.

You all should be sad as well. In my hard drive was the answer to life, the universe, and everything but I don't recall what it was.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on October 29, 2018, 09:45:57 PM
Zee, what a bummer. Go get you a 500 GB or 1 TB portable hard drive. They are cheap! Then backup to that. You can probably get most of your engine/ shop pics from the forum.

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on October 29, 2018, 10:18:52 PM
Yikes.


A few disk crashes at work taught me the value of regular backups. When corporate took over all the IT functions and gave them to a new department, all was supposed to be handled for us. One time a server flamed out, and it turns out the backups had not run for months. The IT ninnies knew but couldn't figure out how to schedule them, never told anyone. Our software team lost two months of change history on a huge firmware project, had to recreate current state from what was on the lab machines. Fortunately for me, I had just transferred from printers to cameras, so didn't have the direct pain.
Bill is right, a portable terabyte drive is very cheap now, couple of those make easy backups of whole machines and can be locked away safe in a firesafe.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: 10KPete on October 29, 2018, 10:53:04 PM
SSD is the way to go. No platters, no motors, no R/W  heads, nothing moves. They are available to fit most formats.

Pete
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on October 29, 2018, 10:56:33 PM
They are quite good, but dont think purely solid state devices cannot ever fail. They can and do. Backups are still needed!
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on October 29, 2018, 10:59:46 PM
Yeah, I don't think they like vodka either  :lolb:

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: 10KPete on October 29, 2018, 11:46:39 PM
SSDs are much more reliable. But like every thing man makes, it fails eventually.

Pete
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Kim on October 30, 2018, 05:04:40 AM
True, SSDs are pretty reliable, but so is spinning media.  And for backup, its hard to justify the additional cost of an SSD.  Might as well get 10x the space for 1/10th the cost and go with a USB drive.  I have a couple of 5TB drives I use for backup.  They were a around $150 at the time I got them and they've served well for several years now.  I have a program that does weekly incremental backups onto the USB drives while I sleep.

Kim
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Stuart on October 30, 2018, 07:22:20 AM
The old saying comes to mind 
‘There are those that backup data and those that will “

I have a friend that will not do any backups but comes round for help when he loose data
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: kvom on October 30, 2018, 09:48:20 AM
My desktop has RAID disks.  Pretty cheap insurance, but wouldn't work for a laptop.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Stuart on October 30, 2018, 10:29:24 AM
Well if we are telling

I am a farther ,grandfather,great grandfather guy

I have a synolgy diskstation with two server grade HDD in a raid setup on the network doing the hourly backups ( inc ) , then two SSD thunderbolt external drives to back up the music , photos and important data to on a monthly cycle a even months and b odd months

To be sure to be sure is my moto

The SIL. Has his own business for which I wrote the data storage data base he looks after the local day,week BU  but we exchange HDD monthly I keep his BU in the safe and we are 90 mile apart

But note I cannot read his encrypted BU
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Admiral_dk on October 30, 2018, 11:31:03 AM
Zee here Carl  ;) , you can still get the data out if the platter and heads are OK …. you "just" need another drive of the exact same model - take the circuit board from the working HD and install it on your "fried" drive - et voila => you can now read the data out.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on October 30, 2018, 02:21:11 PM
I use a 1Tb SSD for my backup.
I tend to do backups when certain events occur. Things like going on vacation! Or when I begin a serious software project and then at various milestones of the project.
As I said, I could have sworn I'd done a backup just prior to vacation. I could also have sworn I'd done some backups since I retired in April.

I guess I should set up something more automatic (or do better checking that the backup took - I usually get a snack or coffee during the backup).

I like the SSD for backup but it's somewhat slow and can take quite a while.
However, I do wonder if it's sufficient.
Having another drive in the system worries me with respect to viruses.
It seems one could get a virus and transport it to the backup drive and risk losing the backup.

Prior to getting the SSD I used to back up to optical disc (CD/DVD). Each disc was labelled and a nice library maintained.
If a disc got corrupted, I could go further back in time.

Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: propforward on October 30, 2018, 02:33:37 PM

Having another drive in the system worries me with respect to viruses.
It seems one could get a virus and transport it to the backup drive and risk losing the backup.



Multiple back up external drives, which are disconnected from the computer until back up time. I do that, as well as an internal drive that backs up all the time.

It's not perfect, but it provides some additional protection from malware and ransomware (as well as my malwarebytes), since being disconnected prevents the malware getting to the external back up.

Think I'll buy another external drive today.

Sorry you lost your stuff. Major bummer.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Twizseven on October 30, 2018, 07:46:42 PM
I had hard drive (C:) failure 2 years ago.  Not a huge problem I though as all photos were backed up to a pair of RAID 5 Network Attached Storage devices (4 & 8TB) with Hot Swap spare drives built into each.  Only problem I had somehow forgotten to set my video directory to back up and also a few work directories.  The work ones I was not too bothered about, but my dive videos of wrecks in the Red Sea I was really annoyed about.  Sent drive off to one of the specialists on No fix no fee basis, but after couple of months they said could not retrieve anything.

Photos are now on the D:drive, 2 NAS drives and all work photos are up in the cloud.  Also have now upped the C; drive to a 1Tb SSD, fed up of getting out of space messages when try to print.  laptop also has 500Gb hard drive.  Several other standalone drives also have stuff on them.

I'm bound to have missed something out.  It gets hard to keep track.

Colin
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on October 30, 2018, 11:38:41 PM
So, how many people read this thread and promptly started a backup??
 :atcomputer:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on October 31, 2018, 12:46:37 AM
Nah, I'll do it tomorrow  :lolb:

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: propforward on October 31, 2018, 01:26:21 AM
So, how many people read this thread and promptly started a backup??
 :atcomputer:

No, my back up regime is pretty good, and I just did one on saturday. But I did order another external drive to make my backup regime even more gooder.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on October 31, 2018, 02:59:20 PM
Admiral_dk mentioned the possibility of swapping the electronics.
I have a number of old laptop drives. As a test, on one I removed the screws and lifted the board. No wires involved.
Thinking 'this is great!' I found an old laptop drive that seemed to matched my blown one.
A Western Digital.
Western Digital doesn't screw the boards on. They are staked.  :cussing:

On the 'good news' front...

I realized all (or very nearly all) my photos are on my iPad Mini. (I use that to show off my work to friends and family.)

Most everything else of major importance I can, and am, recreating.
Lost a few things but my memory protection is already setting in (i.e. my built-in 'forget' mechanism).  ;D


Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: propforward on October 31, 2018, 04:15:56 PM
Good deal Carl - glad you can recover most of the most important stuff.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on November 05, 2018, 03:20:21 PM
Over a week now and I'm still trying to recover. Just a quick update...

As for the photos on my iPad....grrrrr.
I can't seem to transfer them all from the iPad to the PC.
Connect to PC and 'Photos' app comes up but only shows a few pictures.
Tried iTunes but seems you can only transfer from PC to iPad.
My fear is if I try to sync, it will match the iPad to the PC and since the PC has no photos, the iPad may get emptied.
Found a couple of software apps that would do it but they cost money.
Drives me nuts.
Any thoughts?

BTW Rather than a laptop, I got a tower.
Other than vacation, I never move the laptop so I thought I'd get a tower (something I've used for years and years).
It's great and has more features and flexibility but I forgot one little detail...

Working away on recovery...and we lost power. Grrr.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: RonGinger on November 05, 2018, 04:24:08 PM
I have always just plugged my wife's iPad into a USB cable to the PC. Then just use file explorer to move the files. They look just like any external memory stick and you should see them all. Skip using any PC application that may have its own idea of what to move.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on November 05, 2018, 05:01:59 PM
I have always just plugged my wife's iPad into a USB cable to the PC. Then just use file explorer to move the files. They look just like any external memory stick and you should see them all. Skip using any PC application that may have its own idea of what to move.

Thanks. Tried that but file explorer doesn't see all the photos. It only sees the same files that the Windows app 'Photos' sees.
I've also tried security settings but to no avail.

I found this on an Apple site..."Photos and videos that you sync from your computer to your iOS device using iTunes can't be imported back to your computer."
So I suspect the only photos I'm seeing are ones I took with the phone itself.

I'm hoping the problem is unique to a PC. I have a Mac and will try that too.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Steamer5 on November 05, 2018, 05:33:31 PM
Zee,
 Email them to yourself. Open email on PC, save. Not quick but you will get there!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: AOG on November 05, 2018, 06:36:12 PM
I have another suggestion. Turn on your iCloud backup of your photos. That will move a copy of all of your pictures to iCloud. Then use the iCloud for windows client to pull them back. That should be faster than useing email.

Tony
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: gerritv on November 05, 2018, 07:22:18 PM
And then dump your iPad, or give it to someone that you don't like.

Re: connecting the iPad to your PC, did you browse around using Windows Explorer? Apple has potentially hidden the photos away in some obscurely named folder.

Other hints:
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201302
https://www.techwalla.com/articles/how-to-transfer-photos-from-your-iphone-to-a-pc

Lots of others as well but they of course want you to buy an app from the App Store :-(

Gerrit
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Roger B on November 05, 2018, 08:42:30 PM
I am one of those Autistic/Aspergers people. I run two+ back ups,  Pictures are not deleted from the camera until they are on my offsite back up (at my workplace 4 km from here). When I make a new offsite back up the previous one comes home ready to restart the cycle. I assume that if my home and workplace no longer exist I will probably not care anymore.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on November 05, 2018, 11:50:09 PM
Hope you get it sorted out Zee. Weren't computers supposed to make out lives easier??  :lolb:

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on November 08, 2018, 04:14:04 PM
Weren't computers supposed to make out lives easier??

Don't get me started.

The computer isn't the problem. It's the designers who change things for the sake of change and not value.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on November 08, 2018, 04:50:39 PM
Weren't computers supposed to make out lives easier??

Don't get me started.

The computer isn't the problem. It's the designers who change things for the sake of change and not value.

Hello Zee,

I have quite a few design software that will not run in Windows 7 or any later version. I have to keep two extra computers running XP to be able to use the programs. One is AutoCAD which is fairly costly and it would have been so easy for Windows 7 to "program in" and allow this and other like software. Oh well.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on November 08, 2018, 07:29:04 PM
The way I see it is: if programs didn’t change, we wouldn’t need new programmers, and if we didn’t have new programmers, programs wouldn’t change. Hey, no need of wasting those student loans and second mortgages  :shrug: :lolb:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on November 09, 2018, 07:34:36 PM
On Chris's thread, Eric asked how the 'steam cooking thingy' worked on our road trip.
Rather than (continue) trashing Chris's thread...I'll reply in my own (very) trashed thread...

T got an 'insta-pot', much like a cross between a pressure cooker and a crock pot.
She took along spices, condiments, utensils, not to mention a cooler with perishables,...basically a small kitchen.
She was prepared to cook up anything we wanted on the trip. Just had to hit the grocery store for the main ingredient like chicken or pork.

It was great. She'd fix up a meal in the hotel room. Enough for an additional one or two more dinners with the hotel's microwave.
It was easy for me to do dishes too in the bathroom sink.

Cheaper than eating out and always more delicious.

On our trip we were told about a fantastic sea food restaurant where people would wait in line well before it even opens for the evening.
Sure enough, about an hour before it opened we were about 5th in line and the line just kept growing.

It was a bust. Food was lousy. Where they got this reputation, I don't know.

We had dinner at a couple of other restaurants while on the trip. Just the usual restaurant fare and never as good as T's cooking.

We'll stick with the 'insty-pot'.

My only issue is the electric cooler that I have to lug in and out. She fills it to the gills and it's mostly with "just in case" stuff.
I've been making my case for a smaller cooler but to no avail.

I'd really like to find a system that allows me to leave the cooler in the car at night but still run.
There are things out there but I haven't found the right one yet.

And...I'll ask the question for you..."When is this thread getting back on track?"

Being identical to all my trashed threads...I would argue that it IS on track.  ;D
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on November 09, 2018, 07:47:22 PM
Good to have you 'back on track!'
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on November 09, 2018, 08:05:55 PM
Howdy pardner. Well since I learned that I know nothing about vintage tracked vehicles over there on Papa Elves thread, I’ll help you trash yours :lolb: :lolb:. Great news on the product review. Cooking with steam is awesome in many ways in regards to retaining flavor and tenderness. I’ve seen many “lesser cuts” of meat cooked with steam and then finished in other ways and it was tender and moist. See, you are now getting why Lou and I like the RV’ing: food is cheaper and better, cocktails are cheaper and stronger, and I don’t have to worry about who did what in the bed the stay before. On the cooler thingy: I have no affiliation, but, I have to swear by Yeti. There are other brands that are as good maybe better, but I’ve used theirs. With proper packing, icing, and a little judicial use of dry ice, 7-10 days is no problem. That way you could just leave it in the vehicle and take in what you needed without external support to the cooler. Also, get you one of those small two wheeled collapsible dollies what for rolling crap into the room, saves the back. So, it’s Friday, what y’all having for supper? Gee, I’m glad y’all are back  8) :lolb:

Cletus
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Maryak on November 09, 2018, 08:19:41 PM
Hi Zee,


On my yacht I had a 12V/240V 30ltr fridge. Cool then fill at home on 240V then stow near galley on yacht connect to 12V. Also worked well off the cigarette socket in the car.
Sorry can't remember the brand but every caravan and camping store in Oz sells them.


HTH Regards Bob

Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Steamer5 on November 10, 2018, 07:42:19 AM
 :whoohoo: Zee’s back!

Good thing the  :popcorn: planted & growing strong! Sounds like you need to upgrade the cooler Zee, wrap it in an RV!  : :lolb:

Looking forward to updates

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: MJM460 on November 10, 2018, 07:57:47 AM
Good to see you back Zee.  On the fridge conumdrum, I suggest you follow Kerrins idea and wrap it in an RV.  Failing that, Tennessee's wheeley trolley, as a loaded fridge is heavy to move.  Portable is a relative term.

It is very hard to store enough power in batteries to run a fridge overnight in the car, and then only the compressor type, unless they allow you to run a power cord out to the car from the room.  Not always practical though.

Peltier types and absorption types use too much power to run on 12V without the engine running, too dangerous to run gas in the car, compressor type possible especially if you have a dual battery system installed.  But what use are all the ingredients if they are all locked out in the car?

MJM460
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on November 11, 2018, 03:41:25 PM
Thanks all.

We had considered an RV but we don't seem to be the RV type. We thought it might make more sense out west but less so around here.
A number of things dissuaded us...cost, ease of driving in tight places, having to make beds or cook breakfast (we went for hotels that included breakfast), finding a park, clean toilets, etc.
I looked into one of those 'mini RV' which is slightly larger than full-size van or about the size of small hotel shuttles, but the cost is way out there for the few trips we plan.

As for the cooler...I'm looking into portable power packs that can be charged from the car and used to power the cooler at night.
We're not talking refrigerator or ice making here. Just a 12V cooler.
I'm doing some research to see how long the power pack lasts and how long it takes to charge.

But what use are all the ingredients if they are all locked out in the car?

Meal was chosen before hitting the hotel. We just took in what was needed.
Sometimes we forgot something but it was easy to run out and get it.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Dave Otto on November 11, 2018, 04:13:24 PM
Pretty much all hotels have free ice, I'm with Eric here. Get a high quality cooler and use ice; in the morning before you hit the road, drain the water, top off the ice and you are ready to go.
I do this with a small cooler when I travel but it is only for bottled water and beer. :D

Dave
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on November 11, 2018, 05:43:39 PM
Pretty much all hotels have free ice, I'm with Eric here. Get a high quality cooler and use ice; in the morning before you hit the road, drain the water, top off the ice and you are ready to go.
I do this with a small cooler when I travel but it is only for bottled water and beer. :D

Most of the hotels we stayed at also had signs that said ice wasn't for coolers. Understandable as it could empty out the ice machine pretty quick. Although we did sometimes load a baggie with some ice and put it in the cooler.

Otherwise, ice adds weight. Fine for the small cooler of water and beer. Not so fine for the cooler of cheese, meats, and veggies.  ;D

Not to mention we stayed with some family who don't have sufficient ice and in some places was a right pain to go out and find some (we have some family out in the sticks).
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: gary.a.ayres on November 16, 2018, 08:45:19 AM
... Lou and I like the RV’ing: food is cheaper and better, cocktails are cheaper and stronger...
Cletus

I'm with Eric here. Jeanne and I love Last Exile here so much that we often drive to the sea cliffs just for an evening. Especially wonderful in stormy weather:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFzpjNpMRmc

Best mobile bar and restaurant in the local vicinity. Jeanne always drives home...
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on November 16, 2018, 01:59:04 PM
Had this been a few years ago, I'd be all over that. But cramped quarters, tight spaces, the bending over, etc...no longer.

A quick update...

With the laptop toast, on returning home, my goal was to find something decent, cheap, and quickly so that I could get on top of our finances.
So I got a $199 HP at a local store. Rather cheap but I was pleasantly surprised. Even came with an optical disk and the ability to drive two displays.

But, If I run more than a couple of apps, particularly hungry ones like CAD, then it slows to a crawl.
More RAM would help but that costs about the same as the entire computer.

I still haven't transferred my pics and I'm still remembering apps that I need to download and install.
Next year I'll likely get a workstation.

Wow. Next year is just around the corner.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on November 16, 2018, 07:58:03 PM
Ain’t technology fun  :lolb: :lolb:. In regards to the traveling, So, y’all want to live like the proverbial “Yuppie” , in plush hotel rooms with organic breakfast and such, but travel like old hippies “eating in” . Typical programmer :lolb: :lolb:. Perhaps you should discuss a meal plan with your financial advisor at the next meeting. Ta: just having a bit of fun: it’s hot pepper pizza Friday  :cheers: :DrinkPint: :cheers: :DrinkPint:

Cletus
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on November 16, 2018, 09:15:04 PM
So, y’all want to live like the proverbial “Yuppie” , in plush hotel rooms with organic breakfast and such, but travel like old hippies “eating in” . Typical programmer :lolb: :lolb:.

 :ThumbsUp:

it’s hot pepper pizza Friday  :cheers: :DrinkPint: :cheers: :DrinkPint:

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: gary.a.ayres on November 16, 2018, 09:48:50 PM
Chacun a son truc.

Horses for courses - All Good!

 :)
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on November 16, 2018, 10:59:51 PM
Well I don’t guess there’s anything wrong with that. Was just verifying 👍🍺😎😂 :stickpoke: :lolb:

Cletus

TBH. Room service and the mini bars are the shirt  8)
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Steamer5 on November 17, 2018, 04:22:53 AM
Hey Zee,
 Sound’s like you need a popcorn engine running on gas to power a generator to keep the cooler cool!  :lolb:
Bloody technology...... bring back steam power ..... oh and paper!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on November 19, 2018, 04:35:01 PM
Room service and the mini bars are the shirt  8)

I don't pay for room service  ;D and we travel with our own bar.  :ThumbsUp:

@Chris...I saw your little dropping re The Monitor.  :cussing: I leave it on the bench as a constant reminder. Someday I'll finish it.
I did get some more aluminum rod to replace the mucked up cylinders.

But I need to finish the popcorn engine.
Oh right! That's what this thread is supposed to be about!
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Jo on November 19, 2018, 05:37:57 PM
But I need to finish the popcorn engine.
Oh right! That's what this thread is supposed to be about!

:pics:

Can we have a pic of how far you have got with the engine...… last time we saw it was  :noidea:

Jo
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on November 19, 2018, 07:24:57 PM
I'd started that in December of 2015. Sheesh.

Here's a pic of where things stand with the Monitor...

You can see the broken part near the bottom. That's where I left off. I had to order a small end mill and then I got distracted.  ;D
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Jo on November 19, 2018, 07:43:00 PM
Hey Zee its nearly there  :stickpoke: Come on stop doing other things we are looking forward to seeing this run  8)

Jo
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: gerritv on November 19, 2018, 09:40:45 PM
If our mail strike up here ever ends I will mail you an endmill. ;)
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: gary.a.ayres on November 27, 2018, 09:35:56 AM

I don't pay for room service  ;D and we travel with our own bar.  :ThumbsUp:

Way to go... :ThumbsUp: :cheers:
But I need to finish the popcorn engine.
That too...  ;)
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 28, 2018, 01:28:06 AM
Why have you quit working on this engine?
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: kvom on November 28, 2018, 12:06:00 PM
Was that Jo commenting about finishing an engine?  :headscratch:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on November 28, 2018, 01:08:43 PM
Hello Zee,

With the cold weather coming on you will now have plenty of time to spend in your nice warm shop. I am looking forward to seeing your engine running.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 05, 2018, 04:50:06 PM
Thanks for all the  :stickpoke: (I guess).

I have been doing 'some' machining. I built a die filer.
I'm not very proud of it but it runs. Still unfinished. Some corners need knocking off and some holes moved  :embarassed:
I don't have an appropriate file yet. The one installed is cheap and too flexible.
It's designed to be driven by the lathe and is bolted down onto the carriage.
I'm not sure I like that idea. Seems I should worry about loading on the spindle.

It's not good enough to post in its own thread so I threw it in here. As trashed as this thread is, the title is still appropriate.  ;D

Why have you quit working on this engine?

Do you mean the Monitor? I busted an end mill which added to some already built up frustration so I set it aside. Then life got in the way.
If you mean the popcorn engine...somewhat similar story. Although I haven't really set it aside (yet) but life got in the way.

I should have gone back to the Monitor rather than start another (unfinished) engine but the popcorn really grabbed me.

I can try and make this story a little shorter but it would just be a list of excuses.

8 months retired now and I'm still trying to acclimate.
It's great waking up except for the thinking.
1st think, "There's nothing I 'have' to do."
2nd think, "So what should I do today?"

It's about here I get distracted.

[EDIT] That bolt against the bearing...bad idea. It's not tightened down, else nothing moves.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Jo on December 05, 2018, 05:02:04 PM
Nice Die filler, I bet you will find that useful  :)

8 months retired now and I'm still trying to acclimate.
It's great waking up except for the thinking.
1st think, "There's nothing I 'have' to do."
2nd think, "So what should I do today?"

It's about here I get distracted.

:thinking:

My question is "What do I want to do today" Then I have to start cutting back on the list so that it is actually possible and I don't feel disappointed when I can't complete everything  :disappointed: I have taken to making a list of what I planned to do in the morning and then crossing things off or capturing what I actually did so that I get a sense of achievement every day  :cartwheel:

I have just started month 4 of my retirement... I still think I need to go back to work for a rest   :embarassed:

Jo
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on December 05, 2018, 05:55:23 PM
Zee, for that bolt on the bearing - if you drill a shallow hole just into the bearing surface, then the bolt can go into that and at least keep the bearing from moving too much without having to be tightend down and squishing the bearing.
As for retirement, I am just at the 6 year point, very very happy in it, getting lots done on the hobbies while still relaxing a lot. It helped that our company (Kodak) spent most of the year in bankruptcy proceedings before we got nuked, so lots of time doing nothing to acclimate...
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 05, 2018, 06:14:20 PM
I have just started month 4 of my retirement... I still think I need to go back to work for a rest   :embarassed:

I can say with authority that doing little to nothing can be just as tiring.  ;D
P.S. I keep a list of things to do as well. It hasn't helped yet.

I'll get there.

@Chris - thanks. I had thought about putting a little flat on the bearing. I forgot, in part, because the bearings got pressed in and haven't moved yet.

Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Craig DeShong on December 07, 2018, 07:26:47 PM
5 ½ years for me.  I still step out the back door in the morning sometimes, look around and say “wow! Isn’t this great, glad I’m not back at the hell hole work”.  :cartwheel:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on December 07, 2018, 07:36:04 PM
Hello Zee,

Well it is now 16 years retired for me and I am worn out... :ROFL:, if I wasn't so old I would go back to work :lolb:

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Steamer5 on December 07, 2018, 11:26:30 PM
Great!
Thanks you lot for depressing those of us that still have to get up & leave the house each day!
Done 50 hrs SO FAR this week.....another 10 tomorrow 😡😡😡 as well as being on call! Oh then it starts all over again on Monday, BUT not on call, with a bit of luck it will only be 40 hrs! 4 week holiday in Canada mid September to mid October is a distant memory.....

My Dad is coming year 32 in retirement, still plays in his shop every day, he’s just scaled down what he does, is more picky about what comes up his drive with the “ I hear you do machining jobs, I’ve tried a couple of engineering shops but.......”
He’s still trying to work out how he had time to go to work.

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on December 07, 2018, 11:58:11 PM
Great!
Thanks you lot for depressing those of us that still have to get up & leave the house each day!
Done 50 hrs SO FAR this week.....another 10 tomorrow 😡😡😡 as well as being on call! Oh then it starts all over again on Monday, BUT not on call, with a bit of luck it will only be 40 hrs! 4 week holiday in Canada mid September to mid October is a distant memory.....

My Dad is coming year 32 in retirement, still plays in his shop every day, he’s just scaled down what he does, is more picky about what comes up his drive with the “ I hear you do machining jobs, I’ve tried a couple of engineering shops but.......”
He’s still trying to work out how he had time to go to work.

Cheers Kerrin
Similar requests to 'I hear you have a truck...'   :Lol:


I like to think fun retirement time in the shop is payback for years wasted in boring meetings!   :)
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 08, 2018, 12:28:05 AM
I retired when I was 65. For about three weeks. Decided that "This way lies madness". That was seven years ago, and I am still trying to find a balance between time for my own hobby building small engines and doing contract machine design for a few select customers. It is a very fine line to walk, and still keep your balance. I wasn't really looking forward to retirement like many people do, but I got old anyways. Damn it Zee---are you going to finish that popcorn engine or not?
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on December 08, 2018, 01:20:13 AM
Just past six months here and loving it. You will find a balance Zee.

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 08, 2018, 01:22:46 AM
I wasn't really looking forward to retirement like many people do, but I got old anyways.

 :lolb:

Damn it Zee---are you going to finish that popcorn engine or not?

This is proof that people can read my mind.

Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on December 08, 2018, 01:34:30 AM
I wasn't really looking forward to retirement like many people do, but I got old anyways.

 :lolb:

Damn it Zee---are you going to finish that popcorn engine or not?

This is proof that people can read my mind.
I suspect he lost interest in the popcorn engine when he found out it doesn't spew out popcorn!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: JC54 on December 14, 2018, 12:13:06 PM
I am not sure it matters if the Popcorn engine churns out popcorn or not? Would Zee get any?  :Jester:  :old: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 14, 2018, 04:13:03 PM
Finally some hard evidence of what I've suspected for some time now.
If you look closely at the pictures, that's one of Chris's gnomes, made up and dressed to look like an elf.  :cussing:

I've been getting sabotaged, I tell you, and it's all at the direction of Chris.  :cussing:

Deny it if you can Chris...but the photos say it all.  :cussing:

In the words of one of my heroes, "Of course you know this means war."  :cussing:

Be prepared Chris, I've been planning for this eventuality.  :cussing:
You're lucky my own shop gnomes are temporarily distracted with T's holiday cookies.  :cussing:

But come January...weather permitting... :hammerbash:

Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on December 14, 2018, 04:18:33 PM
Finally some hard evidence of what I've suspected for some time now.
If you look closely at the pictures, that's one of Chris's gnomes, made up and dressed to look like an elf.  :cussing:

I've been getting sabotaged, I tell you, and it's all at the direction of Chris.  :cussing:

Deny it if you can Chris...but the photos say it all.  :cussing:

In the words of one of my heroes, "Of course you know this means war."  :cussing:

Be prepared Chris, I've been planning for this eventuality.  :cussing:
You're lucky my own shop gnomes are temporarily distracted with T's holiday cookies.  :cussing:

But come January...weather permitting... :hammerbash:
:lolb:
I've got some of my special gnome-to-elf conversion cookies waiting for them. Bring it on!
And I love the Bugs reference - my hero too!
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: JC54 on December 14, 2018, 09:57:08 PM
We'll get that pesky Wabbit
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Art K on December 14, 2018, 11:21:34 PM
I see things are back to normal here.  :lolb:
Art
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 20, 2018, 01:23:42 AM
We'll get that pesky Wabbit

That's fine Elmer, but I think you mean to say..."We'll get that pesky Chris."

In retirement, it's good to have a goal.  ;D

Although I have no evidence (very much like all our fearless 'leaders'). I suspect Chris is a carrot eater.

I really shouldn't say that. There's nothing wrong with enjoying carrots. I love carrots too.

On a side note...mother-in-law got into using a blender and veggies and fed her husband to the point he was turning orange.
Now she feeds him 'green juice'.

There's a story of a prehistoric fellow being found that had died from an overdose of carrots (keratin).

Oh. Sorry. I seem to be on the wrong forum.
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on December 20, 2018, 01:26:47 AM
Not as much a carrot eater as Haddock - love the stuff. And they come in handy for fish-slapping someone into the canal, if you recall your Monty Python!!
 :atcomputer:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on December 20, 2018, 01:55:31 AM
Seems we have veered away from popcorn. No wonder though. It's a Zee thread after all  :ROFL:

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on December 20, 2018, 02:04:37 AM
Seems we have veered away from popcorn. No wonder though. It's a Zee thread after all  :ROFL:

Bill
Wasn't it about a popcorn engine?  :shrug:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on December 20, 2018, 02:20:02 AM
Um....maybe about 30 pages back.

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 11, 2019, 07:50:07 PM
I've popped in a few times but haven't spent a lot of time on the forum. My apologies (although it's more my loss than yours).

It's been frustrating here. Lately it seems everything I try to do either ends up in the round file or across the room.
In an attempt to change things up, I've played with other hobbies but to no avail. I just end up emptying the round file or shoveling the far side of the room more often.
It's so bad I'm questioning having gotten the lathe and mill last year.

The other day I thought perhaps things were changing. I had remade the cylinder (4th time) and, while it could have been better, I was pretty happy.

Today I did a trial fit of the cylinder, cylinder head (for piston rod), and the cross head guide.

My old friend 'dismay' is trying to pay a visit.

The cylinder head is a press fit into the cross head guide and then bolted onto the cylinder.
Take a look at the picture. I don't have a clue how to get the nuts onto the bolts.  :shrug:

The dimensions of the cross head guide measure out pretty good. The placement of the four bolts could be a little better but are only out 1/2 mm at most.
Even if placed perfectly, I don't understand how there can be room for the nuts.

Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on January 11, 2019, 08:00:50 PM
Hey Zee - took a look at Brians build, and it looks like he countersunk the nuts into the cap so they would not interfere with the crosshead trunk:

Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 11, 2019, 09:43:47 PM
Thanks! That's an idea. I was planning on remaking the cylinder head any way.

However, I'm not so sure he countersunk for nuts. Aren't those SHCSs? Like the ones holding the steam chest?

I'll stick with studs/nuts for the head but I would be fine using SHCSs to attach the head to the cylinder.

A glimmer of hope. I need some of that.  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 11, 2019, 09:50:13 PM
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/458/604aCc.jpg)

Give the man a cigar!!
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: b.lindsey on January 11, 2019, 10:54:31 PM
Zee you can do this, and that new lathe and mill and beautiful new shop space is definitely up to the task. Just get after it!!

Bill
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: crueby on January 11, 2019, 11:13:35 PM
SHCSs do make more sense, good catch. 


How does the trunk get attached to the cap and cylinder?
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 11, 2019, 11:30:00 PM
The i.d. of the cross head guide fits onto the o.d. of the register on that cylinder cap, and is restrained in place by a single bolt which goes thru the other end of the cross head guide and into one of the bearing stands.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/176/2e7niY.jpg)
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: 10KPete on January 12, 2019, 01:43:24 AM
Now that's a real new one for me! For some reason I've always thought the guide was screwed/bolted/whatever to the cylinder head.... It never occurred to me that it could be 'loose'.

You can do it, Zee. I've gone three years now without making anything more than some tooling but I know I'll get back on the horse this year...

 :ThumbsUp:

Pete
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: gerritv on January 12, 2019, 01:52:42 AM
Tools are rewarding to make as well. :-) Main thing is to be making chips.

Gerrit
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: 10KPete on January 12, 2019, 03:31:51 AM
But I have engines I want to build! 

Pete
Title: Re: Zee Needs Popcorn
Post by: Jo on January 12, 2019, 08:30:54 AM
.... I've gone three years now without making anything more than some tooling but I know I'll get back on the horse this year...

 :facepalm:

Three years  :ShakeHead:



These engines don't make themselves  :stickpoke: And you don't get extra healthy years tagged on the end if you are not in the workshop making swarf   :old:


Jo