Model Engine Maker

Engines => From Kits/Castings => Topic started by: zeeprogrammer on April 09, 2018, 07:10:50 PM

Title: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 09, 2018, 07:10:50 PM
Well. At last. Today I got some machining time in.

This is the PMR #7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine. I picked it up at Cabin Fever a couple of years ago.
I had talked about this back in my shop thread.
Many thanks to Jason for some helpful tips.
Also many thanks to Dean Williams. He did this engine and shows it on his website.

1st pic is the box of goodies.
2nd pic is all the goodies.
3rd pic shows the bottom of the base being milled.
4th pic is the base after milling.

This was done several months ago and then I got stuck for lack of appropriate drill bits.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 09, 2018, 07:17:51 PM
Finally received the aircraft drill bits a couple of weeks ago.
I also needed a long enough center drill tool and with Jason's helpful tips, made one. (Last pic).
It took me a while to get the base mounted and squared on the lathe.
I used a long straight rod to line the bearings up to the chuck.

1st pic shows spot facing a bearing.
2nd pic shows me about to center drill the 4th bearing.
3rd pic is drilling undersized.
4th pic is reaming.
5th pic. Then I used the center drill tool I'd made as a guide and turned the base around so I could spot face the other outer bearing.

So far so good.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on April 09, 2018, 07:21:42 PM
Good to see you getting some swarf on those new machines at last :)
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 09, 2018, 07:48:20 PM
Huh?   What?   :o

Zee is making swarf again!  Yeehah!   :whoohoo:


Hey, shop elves, over here! And bring the popcorn!
               :popcornsmall:
 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Good to see you back in the shop!   :cheers:

I like the long center drill setup, did you drill one at a time, center drill the next, drill that one, etc to
get all the way across?
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 09, 2018, 07:57:23 PM
Great start Zee and that is a nice model to break those new machines in on too!!  I would say you did indeed tackle one of the harder tasks first, line drilling those bores across the whole base, but a nice set-up. Are those new machines feeling a bit more comfortable now?

Bill
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 09, 2018, 08:05:42 PM
Thanks Jason.

Thanks Chris. Center drill, drilled, reamed then moved to the next one and repeated.
Had to so that the center drill would fit through a bearing to get to the next.

I suppose I could have centered drilled one and then drilled/reamed through two (I think that was suggested in my shop thread) but this didn't take long.
As usual, all the time was spent setting up.

It was handy being able to mount on the carriage. And I'd lucked out in that the mounting kit from my small rotary table happened to fit.

Thanks Bill. I've played most with the lathe and I'm certainly enjoying it. The mill is still a big unknown.
I'm still not convinced I have it well enough in tram and it's going to take some getting used to in having 3 controls for Z instead of 2.
Which is part of my tram concerns. I trammed (as well as I could) the head to the column and the column to the table.
I don't think I'm doing it right. The quill (is that right terminology?) to the head?

Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 09, 2018, 08:15:20 PM
Just a reminder...although many of you know this about me already...

I'm still very much a newbie. I've made all of 5 small engines from kits and some odds and ends.

Suggestions  :noidea: and corrections  :slap: are always welcome and hopefully many laughs and fun can be had  :lolb: (at my expense and yours as well).

I'm such a newbie that having drilled 4 holes, sliding in the crank, and feeling how smooth it turns is a major accomplishment and so I sit here celebrating  :wine1:

Which reminds me...where in the heck did T hide my tu-tu?
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 09, 2018, 08:45:16 PM
Just a reminder...although many of you know this about me already...

I'm still very much a newbie. I've made all of 5 small engines from kits and some odds and ends.

Suggestions  :noidea: and corrections  :slap: are always welcome and hopefully many laughs and fun can be had  :lolb: (at my expense and yours as well).

I'm such a newbie that having drilled 4 holes, sliding in the crank, and feeling how smooth it turns is a major accomplishment and so I sit here celebrating  :wine1:

Which reminds me...where in the heck did T hide my tu-tu?
I THOUGHT you looked familiar....!
(https://cdn8.dissolve.com/p/D145_246_006/D145_246_006_1200.jpg)
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Gas_mantle on April 09, 2018, 08:55:14 PM
Just a reminder...although many of you know this about me already...

I'm still very much a newbie. I've made all of 5 small engines from kits and some odds and ends.

Suggestions  :noidea: and corrections  :slap: are always welcome and hopefully many laughs and fun can be had  :lolb: (at my expense and yours as well).

I'm such a newbie that having drilled 4 holes, sliding in the crank, and feeling how smooth it turns is a major accomplishment and so I sit here celebrating  :wine1:

Which reminds me...where in the heck did T hide my tu-tu?
I THOUGHT you looked familiar....!
(https://cdn8.dissolve.com/p/D145_246_006/D145_246_006_1200.jpg)


That ought to help with the trunk guide  ;)
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 09, 2018, 09:36:13 PM
And so it begins.  :facepalm2:
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Perry on April 09, 2018, 10:04:23 PM
Oh great! This will be a nice engine, watching with interest  :whoohoo:
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on April 10, 2018, 08:30:22 PM
What? Holy son of a diddly; Zee has started a build thread and I missed it  :facepalm:. As your grandmother would have said (and Stephan Gotteswinter) “Velcome back to de shop”  :lolb:  My hat is off to you for jumping in on a very respectable build. I suspect a twin engine is a whole different ballgame. I really like the line boring on the lathe  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:. Did I read correctly that your lathe has T-slots? I can see now how useful that can be. On the tramming : if you are good in the X and Y locations, your quill should be fine also. I’m assuming when you say three ways to move the Z you are talking about the knee, the lever on the quill, and a fine feed down wheel on the quill. I use the lever for drilling and reaming and to bring the cutter to the work surface. I use the knee to set depth of cuts, and I use the downfeed wheel on the quill for boring and such. Does your mill have power down feed? Man this is great 👍 I’m going out and stock up on Titos vodka and tipsy onions  :mischief:. Lou; where’s that jelly jar? :lolb: :lolb:

Cletus
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 10, 2018, 09:36:06 PM
Hi Eric. Yep, the lathe has T-slots. I hadn't really known it came with. Very handy.
As for the controls, if you're meaning the knee is the big handwheel at the top of the column that moves the head up and down...then yes. Plus the quill lever and the fine feed. My mini-mill didn't have the quill lever.
The fine feed has a built-in DRO which is handy.

I'm not sure if I'm going about this correctly...but so far things seem okay.

1st Pic. The cutting guard keeps getting in the way of the model and clamps so I took it off. The switch is just taped to the side of the head. I need to dress that up better. Maybe connect the wires and push them into the hole. Can always fish them out.

2nd Pic. Used the crank shaft to square the base to the mill.

3rd Pic. Faced the cylinder mounts.

4th Pic. Drilled the oil holes in the bearings. I won't be using oil cups. I'd missed a step and needed to go back over. I had spotted and drilled and should have put a little counter sink in as well.

5th Pic. One side (cross head?) milled, drilled, and tapped. I'd used the crankshaft to find height and the the faced cylinder mount to locate Y position for milling and drilling. I'd centered inside the cross head area for my X dimensions. Later I can indicate off those sides to find the center line for the cylinder.

Loving the DRO!

The big question for me is drilling the hole in the cylinder mounts as well as the 3 smaller holes for mounting the cylinder. I've got the two references I need. One is the height from the bottom of the base and the other is the two side faces in the cross head which should give me the center line. The question is going to be how to mount and square the base for drilling. I think my only option is to use an L bracket and mount the base on its side in the mill. Hopefully I have the headroom I need. I don't see a good way to do this on the lathe (but no doubt do-able).

I'm hoping the mill is beefy enough not to move too much. It's been so long since I've done any machining that I keep forgetting to lock down. I'm thinking I also forgot a step in drilling/tapping the four holes. Seems there should be a small chamfer in there.

Decent day. Even had time to run a couple of errands, deal with a termite inspection, and have a peanut butter and jelly sandwich.
That was the downside to today. Jelly.  :cussing: T doesn't remember that I make my sandwiches with jam. Easy to spread and doesn't mess up the bread.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: AOG on April 10, 2018, 09:49:13 PM
Zee, what I do is mount the casting to a piece of plate with the cylinder mount faces parallel to the edge. Level and clamp the plate in the vise and you are good to go for a constant reference from the bottom of the casting. An example is attached.

Tony
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 10, 2018, 10:36:48 PM
Thanks Tony. That's exactly what I'm thinking.
I didn't have the headroom to do the crankshaft bearings that way.
But I should be able to do the cylinder mounts.

Youngest daughter came by today. "What? Are you growing a beard now?".
Ah. Forgot to shave. Since a week ago yesterday.
I used to have a beard. I'm afraid to see what it looks like now.
Gray is fine with me. (It won't be yet...still got a bit of brown and red).

I worry about bald patches.  :lolb:
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 10, 2018, 10:41:17 PM
Changed my sign off.
Was "Zee - A Thread Trasher"...but I'm not the only one.  :cussing:
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on April 10, 2018, 11:04:30 PM
Well you need to remove those four letter words you don’t have to do anymore  :lolb:. Yeah, that’s kinda what I meant, just forgot your mill moves the head and not the table. I hate shaving and y’all have seen my gray whiskers  :lolb:.  BTW, the machining is looking great. Wasn’t there a song back in the day about “She likes jelly and I like jam”?  :thinking:  Ta,

Cletus

Maybe this one is what I was thinking

S_Jzl_bx3fI
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 10, 2018, 11:36:26 PM
Back to Eric...he'd asked about power down feed.

I don't have it. I'd asked PM (where I got the mill) about it and they said 'no'. But I'm thinking they meant they don't offer it.
In another thread, someone (apologies to 'someone') suggested a solution.
It's something I need to look into.
Turning that wheel is a pain now and in a few years could be too much of a hassle to deal with.

I did install X power feed and that's a wonderful thing.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 11, 2018, 12:22:40 AM
Things are really looking great zee. Amazing what not having to go to work can do...so looking forward to that. You are moving along at a good clip too. Will need to check in often I think  ;)

Bill
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on April 11, 2018, 12:32:40 AM
Great to see you back in the shop Zee!

Dave
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 11, 2018, 09:04:16 PM
Thanks guys.

I finished the other cross head mount and decided to do a little lathe work.
Something easy...the 8 spacers.

1st pic: Drilled so the screws could make it through.
2nd pic: Faced off. Just the once.
3rd pic: Measuring to cut.
4th pic: Parted then go to back to step 3 for 7 more.
5th pic: The 8 spacers. I stuck each one in my tailstock chuck and gave the inner diameter a lick with a countersink. Naturally that results in a bit of chatter but it won't be seen.

Did I say easy? When parting spacer #3 I fed too hard and the whole thing broke away at the chuck jaws. Some of the tubing collapsed. My worry was, after cleaning up the end, whether I'd have enough material for the rest of the spacers as well as the two pipe nipples. But all seems well.

I could have cleaned up the outside of the spacers a bit but didn't bother. They'll be hard to see anyway.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 11, 2018, 09:54:11 PM
Did the eccentric rods. Still need to be bent but that will happen during assembly.

I did remember to chamfer before threading but didn't do a very good job. It'll work though!

Didn't have to turn the ends down. The diameter of the rod is slightly under major diameter of the thread.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 11, 2018, 10:25:34 PM
Coming along nicely!  Isn't this more fun, satisfying, relaxing, etc than that werk,  um, wurk, err, whatever its called, thing?!
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 11, 2018, 10:45:11 PM
Coming along nicely!  Isn't this more fun, satisfying, relaxing, etc than that werk,  um, wurk, err, whatever its called, thing?!

Indeed. Although today I somehow found myself hauling mulch for T.  :cussing:

I did a quick mock-up of mounting the base onto the mill so the cylinder mounts could be drilled.
Looks do-able.
Squaring it should be easy enough. Can shim one end or the other as needed.

Also checked for problems with reaming. No room using the chuck but the 3/8" reamer fits a 5/16 collet quite nicely.

 :whoohoo:

[EDIT] Just noticed it may be difficult to see the L-brackets (two of them) that the various clamps are holding.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 11, 2018, 11:42:04 PM
If you have them, would a set of 1-2-3 blocks give more surface area and wider stance for clamping to table and part? Either way, make sure those clamps are on tight, don't want any vibration to wiggle them loose (not that its happened to me... today...)

 :popcorn:
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 12, 2018, 12:00:37 AM
Nice progress zee!! Making me feel guilty for my lack of same  :paranoia:

Bill
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 12, 2018, 12:42:59 AM
If you have them, would a set of 1-2-3 blocks give more surface area and wider stance for clamping to table and part? Either way, make sure those clamps are on tight, don't want any vibration to wiggle them loose (not that its happened to me... today...)

I do have a set. But I struggle to understand exactly what you mean.
I am worried about wiggling (I do it myself all the time and get in trouble for it). I'll be taking it slow and easy...which is no guarantee.

Nice progress zee!! Making me feel guilty for my lack of same

Won't be long Bill. Couple of months? But then it's summer time...many reasons to take up your time.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 12, 2018, 01:09:57 AM
Fifty days Carl, but who's counting  :cartwheel:

Bill
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 12, 2018, 01:36:55 AM
Fifty days Carl, but who's counting  :cartwheel:

Well I did. I was so bad...I was counting the total number of stop lights I had to go through to work and back. I counted the number of lunches I had to take. The number of times I had to shave. The number of times I had to go through a scary underpass. The number of times I had to wear some shoes I wanted to throw out. I was counting everything.

But no more.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Kim on April 12, 2018, 05:31:38 AM
You're doing great work, Zee!  Glad to see you making progress on your project.  And what fun, eh? :)
Kim
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on April 12, 2018, 07:24:01 AM
Carl, when I have parts that are a bit hard to hold and end up with a fair overhang I like to try and jack up the overhanging part which helps prevent flexing when the drill load is applied. You don't need anything fancy just a couple of nuts from your clamping set and some studding. Just nip up the jack so it is firm but not pushing the part up out of vertical.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Hit%20n%20Miss/1-3rd%20Ruston%20Hornsby%20BPR/DSC01533_zpsyill2vju.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Hit%20n%20Miss/1-3rd%20Ruston%20Hornsby%20BPR/DSC01535_zpsfqo0rycw.jpg)

An angle plate or two would be a good long term investment for these type of setups, you can just see the two I/m using at the back of this job plus the drill bits used to shim it up.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 12, 2018, 01:40:44 PM
Thanks Kim.

Thanks Jason. My mistake...I'm still working on terminology. The L-brackets I said I'd used are angle brackets.
I'll look into the jacks but I'll have to make sure they don't take away too much Z.
In any case, it made me realize I probably don't want the base resting directing on the table.
I'll probably put a parallel underneath and shim off that if necessary.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on April 12, 2018, 02:01:26 PM
It does not have to be a jack, just a bit of scrap metal to support the overhang so the loads go directly down through something solid, feeler gauge will even do. though I would add them under the top of the cylinder mounts.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 12, 2018, 02:28:38 PM
Ah! Thanks for that. Yes, need to support the cylinder mounts else the Z pressure will force base to tilt.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 12, 2018, 02:42:16 PM
Also, if you have machinist type parallel clamps, they are more secure than the C-clamps you show, which can rotate off the work at the moveable pad sometimes. If the casting is rough where the clamp tip goes, bit of filing to smooth it helps too.
(https://engineering.purdue.edu/MECL/OLDMECL/pshop/projects/clamp/clamp.jpg)
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on April 12, 2018, 08:32:27 PM
Dude, I’m liking how you are jumping in on this one. 3552 days left for me, though I doubt you lucky ones really care  :lolb:  :lolb:. +1 on what Jason said about the “jacks” . Just remember, try not to leave anything hanging out in the breeze, er, mid air, unsupported, and never work over “air”,  or, anything that isn’t supported  :old:  Want to ask me how I know  :lolb:.  :thinking: I’m thinking pepper shrimp lo mein  and crab angle tonight: what are y’all having  :???: :lolb:. Give T a hug and I’ll do my best imitation Z squeeze to Lou  :lolb: :lolb:.  Y’all come see us

Cletus
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 12, 2018, 08:52:01 PM
Thanks.
I managed to drill the holes in the cylinder mounts. I was pretty careful but both main holes are just slightly off center. Height is right.
Not sure what happened.
I'm thinking things will be okay though. We'll see once I do more on the cross head.

Thanks for the help.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 12, 2018, 09:04:43 PM
Thanks.
I managed to drill the holes in the cylinder mounts. I was pretty careful but both main holes are just slightly off center. Height is right.
Not sure what happened.
I'm thinking things will be okay though. We'll see once I do more on the cross head.

Thanks for the help.
What? No Pictures?   :facepalm2:
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 12, 2018, 09:42:27 PM
Thanks.
I managed to drill the holes in the cylinder mounts. I was pretty careful but both main holes are just slightly off center. Height is right.
Not sure what happened.
I'm thinking things will be okay though. We'll see once I do more on the cross head.

Thanks for the help.
What? No Pictures?   :facepalm2:

You've seen the base. Now it's a base with a couple of non-centered holes. So what's to see?  ;D
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 12, 2018, 10:30:03 PM
I haven't made any soft jaws for my vise yet. Not sure that would have helped.
I needed to mill the cross head caps down and the question was how to set the height in the vise.
The parallels would set the part too high or too low.

So I printed something up. High enough so I could mill yet low enough so I had enough to hold onto with the vise.

What do you think? Good idea?

I'll need to print another one so I can flip the part over and spot face and drill.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 13, 2018, 01:27:21 AM
If it worked, its a good idea!   :thinking:

I've used rulers when the parallels were too thick, other times strips of wood, especially for angles. As long as its the right hieght and parallel, it works!
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 13, 2018, 01:27:52 AM
Thanks.
I managed to drill the holes in the cylinder mounts. I was pretty careful but both main holes are just slightly off center. Height is right.
Not sure what happened.
I'm thinking things will be okay though. We'll see once I do more on the cross head.

Thanks for the help.
What? No Pictures?   :facepalm2:

You've seen the base. Now it's a base with a couple of non-centered holes. So what's to see?  ;D
Holes!   :stickpoke:
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 13, 2018, 05:58:40 PM
Worked on the Cross Head Caps. Four of them.
I still need to get better at spotting and centering but they should be fine.

1st pic is drilling the oil hole and mounting holes. I won't be making oil cups.
2nd pic shows the caps installed.
3rd pic is the hole that Chris wanted to see.

Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: sco on April 13, 2018, 06:10:39 PM
All looking good Zee!

Simon.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 13, 2018, 06:34:14 PM
Worked on the Cross Head Caps. Four of them.
I still need to get better at spotting and centering but they should be fine.

1st pic is drilling the oil hole and mounting holes. I won't be making oil cups.
2nd pic shows the caps installed.
3rd pic is the hole that Chris wanted to see.
Thanks Carl, looks great!   :Lol:
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on April 13, 2018, 07:12:35 PM
Man that’s looking great Zee. When you say you aren’t making oil cups; are you going to buy them  :shrug:? Hey, I have about two tons of leaf and horse manure ready for composting: good deal, almost free, shipping only buddy  8) :lolb:. P.S. I’m cheating tonight; someone else can cook the pizza. Twelve hours of cooking is enough for me and I ain’t in the mood for ribs anyhoo  :lolb:. Tell T I said hey. Luv y’all

Cletus
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 13, 2018, 08:23:54 PM
When you say you aren’t making oil cups; are you going to buy them  :shrug:? Hey, I have about two tons of leaf and horse manure ready for composting: good deal, almost free, shipping only buddy  8) :lolb:. P.S. I’m cheating tonight; someone else can cook the pizza. Twelve hours of cooking is enough for me and I ain’t in the mood for ribs anyhoo  :lolb:.

Not going to use any oil cups. Will be applying just a drop of oil. The engine won't be steamed and won't be run very long.
The engine is more about remembering and getting back into things.
I may try and use it to learn about painting such things.

T is making homemade pizza. Lovely stuff. Canned hot peppers from last year's garden. They've got a nice sting to them.  :wine1:

[EDIT] Went outside and thought wait...it's Thursday! Pizza is not until tomorrow.  :cussing: Then thought wait...it IS Friday.  :pinkelephant:
Then thought wait...is it? Had to bring up calendar. Oh my...Friday the 13th.  :paranoia:
What an idiot.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Gas_mantle on April 13, 2018, 08:42:19 PM
Off to a good start Carl  :ThumbsUp:

I appreciate you don't want to make oil cups but have you thought of buying a couple, I think they improve the look even if they are just decorative and they cost very little.  :)
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 13, 2018, 09:01:28 PM
Off to a good start Carl  :ThumbsUp:
I appreciate you don't want to make oil cups but have you thought of buying a couple, I think they improve the look even if they are just decorative and they cost very little.  :)

Thanks Gas_mantle. Well if by improving the look means silk purse from pig's ear...it would be worthwhile.  ;D

But it might not be too late. I'll think on it as I get further down the road.

The oil holes are currently drilled to 1/16. I suspect that means there's still meat to thread.

If I do make the oil cups...what diameter oil hole should the cup have?

Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Gas_mantle on April 13, 2018, 09:14:30 PM
Hi Carl, I'm not sure what would be best but maybe something like the smallest of these would be ok.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/steam-engine-oilers-Brass-oil-cups-in-BA-Sizes-Pack-of-2-live-steam-steam-loco/231095536286?hash=item35ce5e0a9e:m:mnAMArVCq1odl_QvTtVDJSA

Admittedly they are in the UK and they are BA threads but I'm sure there will be similar things in the USA.

I did think of buying some for my little Muncaster engine but have decided to make a few as it's only a few mm of brass to waste if I don't like them. I thought of an oil hole perhaps about 1mm but that is just guesswork.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on April 13, 2018, 10:04:34 PM
Off to a good start Carl  :ThumbsUp:
I appreciate you don't want to make oil cups but have you thought of buying a couple, I think they improve the look even if they are just decorative and they cost very little.  :)

Thanks Gas_mantle. Well if by improving the look means silk purse from pig's ear...it would be worthwhile.  ;D

But it might not be too late. I'll think on it as I get further down the road.

The oil holes are currently drilled to 1/16. I suspect that means there's still meat to thread.

If I do make the oil cups...what diameter oil hole should the cup have?

If you're going to make miniatures, you can't wimp out and buy oil cups.  Make them yourself or suffer the agonies of wussy-hood!  They're a trivial bit of machining.

If the holes are already drilled to 1/16", the smallest inferial thread you can use is 2-56 (0.07 tap drill size).  Use the smallest drill you have for the drip hole.  If it turns out to be too large, a piece of wire with a pointed end set cocked in the hole can be used to control the oil feed rate.  That's what I used on my Poppin.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 13, 2018, 10:12:26 PM
Started on the inboard heads.

To set the part in the chuck, I 3d printed a spacer (spider) and used a couple of parallels.
Parallels and spacer were removed before turning.
The spacer should be reasonably parallel and close enough since the other side of the part is still in its cast form.

1st pic is after facing and sizing the bit that goes through the cylinder mount.
2nd pic is after drilling through 1/8
3rd pic is after drilling/tapping 1/4-28 part way in.

And then I realized a problem. There's not one sodie pop or beer can in the house.  :cussing:
So I can't cut some strips to hold the part when I flip it around.

Well that's fine for now anyway. I'm thinking I want to do the cylinders before I face the back of the inboard head to fit the cylinder.

I know I won't get away with bringing sodie pop into the house.
And around here...you can't buy just one can of beer.

Tomorrow I'm buying some beer.  :cheers:

Just saw your post Marv. Yeah...that was my first thought when I saw the ad. "I'll just make them."
But that's not to say I'm not already well acquainted with wussy-hood.

I generally pick my flights.  ;D
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on April 13, 2018, 10:54:28 PM
 :popcorn: :popcorn:

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on April 13, 2018, 11:11:36 PM

And then I realized a problem. There's not one sodie pop or beer can in the house.
So I can't cut some strips to hold the part when I flip it around.

Wait for trash day and raid your neighbors' trash.

Lots of canned fish (e.g., sardines, teriyaki mackerel, anchovies, etc.) come in aluminum cans now.  (BTW, save the cans and cut sponges to fit them, some weights under the sponge and you have nice little soldering iron wipers.)

Old beach chairs with aluminum tubing frames.

Scraps of copper pipe or chimney flashing scavenged from recent construction.

Old, pre-zinc pennies.

Discarded cookie sheets and picture frames.

And, before you laugh, I've used all of these at one time or another in my career.

Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 13, 2018, 11:26:06 PM

And then I realized a problem. There's not one sodie pop or beer can in the house.
So I can't cut some strips to hold the part when I flip it around.

Wait for trash day and raid your neighbors' trash.

Lots of canned fish (e.g., sardines, teriyaki mackerel, anchovies, etc.) come in aluminum cans now.  (BTW, save the cans and cut sponges to fit them, some weights under the sponge and you have nice little soldering iron wipers.)

Old beach chairs with aluminum tubing frames.

Scraps of copper pipe or chimney flashing scavenged from recent construction.

Old, pre-zinc pennies.

Discarded cookie sheets and picture frames.

And, before you laugh, I've used all of these at one time or another in my career.

May I chuckle?
Purely out of respect?

All neat ideas. Over the last couple of weeks I've been internet cruising various hobbies. Not that I'm leaving this one...it's all about ideas and an interest in what people are doing and come up with.

It's just fascinating the things people come up with to make miniatures, dioramas, etc. How they re-purpose items.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 14, 2018, 12:51:35 AM
Wonderful progress zee!! Seems you are getting right back into the swing of things and it's all looking great.

Bill
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on April 14, 2018, 01:05:33 AM

And then I realized a problem. There's not one sodie pop or beer can in the house.
So I can't cut some strips to hold the part when I flip it around.

Wait for trash day and raid your neighbors' trash.

Lots of canned fish (e.g., sardines, teriyaki mackerel, anchovies, etc.) come in aluminum cans now.  (BTW, save the cans and cut sponges to fit them, some weights under the sponge and you have nice little soldering iron wipers.)

Old beach chairs with aluminum tubing frames.

Scraps of copper pipe or chimney flashing scavenged from recent construction.

Old, pre-zinc pennies.

Discarded cookie sheets and picture frames.

And, before you laugh, I've used all of these at one time or another in my career.

May I chuckle?
Purely out of respect?

All neat ideas. Over the last couple of weeks I've been internet cruising various hobbies. Not that I'm leaving this one...it's all about ideas and an interest in what people are doing and come up with.

It's just fascinating the things people come up with to make miniatures, dioramas, etc. How they re-purpose items.

Do you have a Pinterest account yet? There are more ideas there than you can possibly imagine.  :lolb:
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 14, 2018, 02:08:42 PM
Thanks guys.
@Dave - No Pinterest account yet. I've been meaning to sign up.

Just some simple turning and threading of the piston rods.
I'm a little concerned with the amount of play in the inboard head. We'll see how it goes.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 14, 2018, 10:17:00 PM
Do you mean play in the hole zee? If so that shouldn't be a big issue. Maybe get even allow you to line things up better in the end.

Bill
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 14, 2018, 10:31:34 PM
Do you mean play in the hole zee? If so that shouldn't be a big issue. Maybe get even allow you to line things up better in the end.

Yes. And it may be that because the hole has very little length to it...some play is inevitable. We'll see.

I managed to do the pipe nipples. The yellow-ish rings you see is residue from some yellow masking tape (used by plastic model builders when painting).

Got my beer! Soon I'll have all the aluminum strips I want.  :cheers:
Spent part of the afternoon getting conduit and connections to make some garden trellises.
Part of tomorrow will be spent building the trellises. Man I love having a shop.

Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 14, 2018, 11:03:35 PM
Is that Frog tape? 


Nice progress!


 :popcorn:
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 14, 2018, 11:53:49 PM
Is that Frog tape? 

No. Tamiya Masking Tape. Generally used to mask off plastic models for painting.
I had gotten it so I could paint a balsa kit of an Me109 and a Stuka 87. Both rubber band powered.
Haven't finished the Stuka. The Me109 looks like crap and will be used to let the grand-daughter have some fun destroying flying it.

P.S. That tape was probably not a good idea for the balsa model. When I took it off, a nice square of rice paper came off too.  :cussing:
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 14, 2018, 11:58:36 PM
Is that Frog tape? 

No. Tamiya Masking Tape. Generally used to mask off plastic models for painting.
I had gotten it so I could paint a balsa kit of an Me109 and a Stuka 87. Both rubber band powered.
Haven't finished the Stuka. The Me109 looks like crap and will be used to let the grand-daughter have some fun destroying flying it.

P.S. That tape was probably not a good idea for the balsa model. When I took it off, a nice square of rice paper came off too.  :cussing:
I've used the 'delicate surface' version of Frog Tape, comes off of airbrush painted surfaces very well, but holds just enough to mask for the next coat.

The rice paper mention reminds me - it can be used to make the equivalent of a decal by taping it to a sheet of paper and printing on it in your inkjet printer (make sure you have pigmented ink or it will run in the next step). Cut around the image, and epoxy coat it onto a surface - it goes transparent like fiberglass cloth does. I used it to put eagle and wolf heads on some kayak paddle blades once.

Anyway, back to the engine model!

 :popcorn:
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 15, 2018, 08:09:28 PM
Found some time to work on the connecting rods.
Had to finish T's trellises and install a phone jack.
Geesh, the days are flying by!

Not a good job on the rods. Holes appear pretty off center but so long as the distance between holes is correct, the rods should work.
The 1st pic shows me using a 1/8" end mill. I took that hint from Dean's website.
Otherwise the dimple would force the center drill and/or drill off.

You may recall I'd 3D printed a spindle stop for the mill. Very handy as otherwise I would need a 3rd hand.
One to twist the draw bar, one to hold a wrench on the spindle, and one to hold the tool so it doesn't drop out.
The spindle stop takes the place of the wrench on the spindle.

Unfortunately, too often I would turn on the mill forgetting the stop was in place.
This resulted in two types of noises and the stop sometimes getting flung off.
One noise was the rattling of the draw bar in the stop.
The other noise was me.  :cussing:

So I made a little reminder and we'll see how that goes.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 15, 2018, 08:23:39 PM
Good progress on the conrods. I like the idiot proofing too.


We used to joke about making our software foolproof. But they kept coming out with even better fools!!   :Jester:
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Admiral_dk on April 15, 2018, 09:01:51 PM
Quote
I like the idiot proofing too.

I really wished I used that one too last year - though it should probably have read - "Remember to fill up with oil before pressing Start, or you are an idiot" ....  :facepalm: ....  :cussing:
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 15, 2018, 09:30:08 PM
Oil? That reminds me...

I've noticed quite a bit of oil loss below the carriage on the lathe.
I can oil everything and then 3-5 days later I see a lot of oil in the pan.
Always under the carriage.

Not sure this is normal. Anyone have thoughts?

I haven't been able to see where it's coming from.
I'll place some paper underneath and watch for a drip.
Hopefully I won't be watching paint dry.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Stuart on April 16, 2018, 09:24:18 AM
Zee
Most lathe carriages are incontinant.

At least it has clean oil

Stuart
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on April 16, 2018, 03:00:14 PM
Looking good Zee.  :ThumbsUp:

Your little sign reminds me of a computer joke where a computer repair tech tells a customer that their computer is suffering from an "ID ten T" error. AKA an "ID 10 T" error  ........... AKA an "ID10T" error ........AKA "Idiot" error!  :lolb:

Jim
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 16, 2018, 06:26:30 PM
Thanks Stuart.

Jim...I will use that. I still get questions about the project I was on at work. Once in a while I get a question where that would be appropriate.

Did a couple more parts. I'm waiting on a tap and pushing off parts that need the 4-jaw.

1st pic shows the crankshaft. It required two flats 90 degrees apart. This is what I came up with to ensure the 90 degrees.
I worried a little in that I could only hold onto a little over an 1/8" on both ends.
But seemed to do the job.

2nd pic includes the two crank bearings with one placed in the connecting rod.
Rather than measure the part that goes into the connecting rod...I turned the bearing until the connecting rod slipped on.

Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 16, 2018, 07:33:08 PM
Zee, what are the flats for? I looked at my single cylinder version and the con rods don't have that, but it was built a lot of years ago too.

Bill
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 16, 2018, 08:08:52 PM
Zee, what are the flats for? I looked at my single cylinder version and the con rods don't have that, but it was built a lot of years ago too.

For the cranks. It may be that a flat is not needed for single cylinder. In this case, the two cranks have to be 90 degrees out of phase with each other and the flats help achieve that.
(I can only guess. I am no expert.)

46!  :Lol: Going slow ain't it?
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 16, 2018, 08:11:34 PM
I try not to think about it  :lolb:

Bill
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Gas_mantle on April 16, 2018, 08:28:30 PM
Carl, while looking to see what the flats are for I came across this site which may be of interest to you  :)

http://www.deansphotographica.com/machining/jobs/pmr7/pmr7.html
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 16, 2018, 08:38:48 PM
Zee, I misread the post and was thinking connecting rid rather than crankshaft. The out of phase makes perfect sense for the crankshaft. Sorry for the confusion on my part.


Bill
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 16, 2018, 09:16:44 PM
I try not to think about it  :lolb:

Good luck with that. This forum never lets anything go. Sigh.  ;D

@Gas_mantle: That's the site I was referring to earlier. I should have posted a link. Thanks for that. Dean used to be a familiar member on the forum and, as I recall, provided excellent posts on spring making besides models. I get in touch with him once or twice a year.

I did the valve linkages which has added to my list of 'things I want...like right now':

a) A set of 5C collets to hold hex shaped bar.
b) A DRO for the tailstock of the lathe.
c) A carriage stop (which I should be able to make...I haven't looked but does anyone have plans?)

1st pic is after the lathe work where one end is drilled and tapped. Here I'm doing the hole for a holding pin.
I'd used a parallel to set the part.
I surprised myself to remember to put the other part at the other end of the vise to keep the pressure even.
I could have placed both for drilling (one on either end) but it was fiddly enough to get one true so I placed them one at a time.

Title: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: AOG on April 16, 2018, 09:43:44 PM
For a carriage stop, I just repurposed one of my vise stops. I clamp it to the back rail of my lathe which is square.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180416/382f7c5f59412d15dc7e566775cb6fa8.jpg)

Tony


(updated to use a better picture)

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 16, 2018, 10:46:46 PM
Thanks Tony. That reminds me I need to make a vise stop as well as some soft jaws for the vise.

 :help:

Dean did the flywheel by using Loctite 'blue stuff' to set a piece of drill rod in the flywheel. Then put a dimple in the end and, along with a live center, did the rim machining.

Can anyone clarify what 'blue stuff' he's talking about? Also, how the rod is released from the flywheel?

But I'm also wondering why I couldn't do the same with a bit of drill rod (no Loctite) and a lathe dog.
Now I don't have a lathe dog but it seems a simple matter to make one up that would 'bolt' onto the drill rod (in a flat) and then to the flywheel.

Thoughts?

Thanks.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Gas_mantle on April 16, 2018, 10:51:07 PM
Not sure what the blue stuff is but I often use Loctite 638 to turn wheels on a mandrel and it will be strong enough for what you need. It is easy to break the bond with a bit of heat.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 17, 2018, 12:36:56 AM
Well, Loctite Blue?

(http://hybris.cms.henkel.com/medias/sys_master/root/h6c/h56/9193086418974/unbenannt-413538-413538-305dpi-171H-171W.jpg)

It holds pretty well, can still be broken loose with enough force. The Loctite Red is stronger, requires heat to break it loose. The Loctite Retaining Compound (green) is very handy too, made for round pins in holes rather than threads, acts like the Red does, can be removed with heat. They make dozens of versions, those three are the common ones, readily available online (all three) and home centers (red and blue).
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 17, 2018, 12:47:44 AM
Thanks Gas_mantle. I've ordered some.

Chris...already ordered the 628 but I see you're showing 242 which I already have.

This stuff is very confusing. red, blue, green, numbers, etc.

You mention 3. Looks like 242 is blue. What are the other two?

Thanks.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 17, 2018, 01:09:14 AM
Red is 271, green retaining compound is the 603. The colors are printed on the containers, but the liquid itself is that color.
All of them cure in absence of air, so any left on surface wont dry, but easy to wipe off.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on April 17, 2018, 01:22:33 AM
Green is also 609 & 290; maybe the 603 is the old 609? 
The 290 is the wicking variety and can be handy at times.


Dave
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 17, 2018, 01:41:37 AM
Green is also 609 & 290; maybe the 603 is the old 609? 
The 290 is the wicking variety and can be handy at times.
Red is 271, green retaining compound is the 603. The colors are printed on the containers, but the liquid itself is that color.
All of them cure in absence of air, so any left on surface wont dry, but easy to wipe off.

Yeeaagh. My head hurts.

I've got 242 and 271.

Some googling has led me to take some aspirin.

The best I can tell...most differences seem to be around curing time, temperature range, and disassembly requirements (heat and/or hand tools).

But otherwise, this seems to be the kind of product that whatever you were introduced to by some mentor, teacher, or someone whose knowledge you respect, you just use the same thing they do.

So my next question is...of the 3 'popular?' ones , 271 (red), 242 (blue),  290 (green), why would you (I mean you guys specifically) choose one over another?

Also, there seems to be a series 2xx and 6xx. Not sure what that means. Industrial versus commercial? Military?

I'll keep digging once the aspirin takes effect.

Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Gas_mantle on April 17, 2018, 01:55:19 AM
I'm no expert but I've used both 603 and 638 many times, I think there are probably so many different flavours because a lot of Loctite products are used in industrial applications where a slight difference in properties could be vital. For the kind of uses most of us modellers need the difference is probably very subtle so some products are largely interchangeable.

In terms of 603 v 638 I'd say 638 is slightly stronger but cures very quickly with little 'manipulation' time where as 603 gives longer to adjust components.

I tend to use 638 for strength where a simple push fit is needed (like putting a flywheel on a mandrel) but use 603 if I need to locate components precisely and may need to adjust things.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Johnmcc69 on April 17, 2018, 02:06:55 AM
So what was used in the days before Loctite?  :headscratch:

 John
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 17, 2018, 02:36:48 AM
You asked why one over the other....


I am use medium strength blue for screws that I don't want to vibrate out but want to be able to remove without heating, like gunsight mount screws, cover bolts, etc. Red high strength for more permanent assembly parts, cranks, levers, parts to arbors, that can be heated to remove but need to withstand a lot of torque. Green for same use, its better with round rods and pins in holes.
Be careful of parts to be painted, clean off any squeeze out or paint may not cure. Most need time to cure to max strength, and bottles must be shaken before use.


Before loctite, um, chewing gum and goat spit.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: ShopShoe on April 17, 2018, 01:02:17 PM
If you're a technical information junkie, this link may be useful:

http://www.supertechnical.com/CATALOGUE/Adhesives-and-Sealants/Loctite-Adhesives.pdf

My go-to loctite products I keep in stock are:

Blue - If I want to take it apart with hand tools.

Red - If I don't want to take it apart, but I can with the help of a torch.

Green - If I want to secure something after assembly or want the wicking.

Other types I occasionally acquire for situations like bearing retention.

ShopShoe
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on April 17, 2018, 08:04:50 PM
Late to the party, but, I did bring wine  :lolb:. Zee, I’m liking how you are jumping right back in here with us and showing us the good, bad, and ugly (ain’t seen that one) and doing a splendid job. Don’t worry about the con rods. PM does a great job on casting, but, sometimes the bosses don’t line up. I center the one that is most likely to be seen and let the other end fall where the prints say they should (which is usually a little off center). One of my employees with the most seniority, may have come up with a plan on the getting zapped thing; I’ll send you a PM :mischief:. Remember your safety glasses and always look for pinch points  :old:

Cletus
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 17, 2018, 09:09:59 PM
Thanks all.


Nuts. Brass ones at that.
Yet another area where I need much improvement. But they'll do.
I tested some on the rods I had threaded. Too tight.
I'll need to re-thread some parts.

About here is when Marv et.al. would step in and mention the very good idea of matching taps to dies.
Okay...so I forgot...  :facepalm2:

Update on the flywheel...I tried blue Loctite. It didn't take at all. I realized I hadn't shaken the bottle and I've got another go at it drying.
But I suspect it won't work. The rod I'm using, I believe, is a close fit so fluid may not have gotten in there. I may luck out though because there was a good size dimple on the rod where I put the flywheel. Still, I have deep doubts. For one thing, the blue stuff says the parts can be realized with hand tools (no heat). Makes me think that as soon as I start cutting, the flywheel will let go.

Other things I could try...1) score up the rod so the fluid has a place to go, 2) try the red, or 3) figure out a lathe dog.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Gas_mantle on April 17, 2018, 09:19:37 PM
Carl I'm not sure what the blue Loctite is but in the UK the green stuff (638) is what I use to hold wheels for turning. If the parts are clean and free of oil it should hold ok for what you are aiming to do.

I've used it on a few wheels up to about 5" dia and never had one work loose in the lathe.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 17, 2018, 09:38:46 PM
Thanks Gas_mantle. And you've reminded me I have a bottle of 638 on the way.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Gas_mantle on April 17, 2018, 09:48:51 PM
Thanks Gas_mantle. And you've reminded me I have a bottle of 638 on the way.

You'll be fine with that stuff, it is incredibly strong and starts to cure within seconds in the absence of air so I'd make sure you are totally happy with how the parts fit together before applying it.

Although it cures very fast I usually leave it a few hours to achieve good strength before machining.  I try to make sure the parts don't get very hot during machining, they probably wouldn't get hot enough to break the bond but it's worth keeping an eye on the situation  :)
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 17, 2018, 11:15:53 PM
More nuts.

These are the packing nuts. I'm fairly happy with them but I need to get better at putting the angle on the hex.

It's amazing...when I first looked at the parts list and drawings...it seemed 'simple' in the sense of how much there is.
Whew...there's a lot of parts here and this is a simple model compared to the stuff we see on this forum.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 17, 2018, 11:36:45 PM
Question: I have a die holder that slips on a rod. The other end of the rod has an MT2 taper that fits the tail stock. Normally, if the MT2 taper end gets tightened into the tail stock, I simply back away the (watchamacallit thingie that is holding the taper - a quill?) and the taper pops out.

But not in this case. It be stuck even when backed all the way. Whatever is in the tail stock that pushes out the taper...isn't long enough for this tool.
I have no problem with the chuck (which has a tang for some reason.)

The way I've gotten it unstuck is to put the rod end in the head stock chuck and give it a twist. That's problematic in that there may be a part in the head stock that I don't want to remove.

I suppose I could take a pair of pliers (and a rag) and twist it off but I'm not sure I like the idea.

Are there alternatives?
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on April 17, 2018, 11:48:41 PM
Zee--I seen a similar thread about this somewhere last week. You can build up the end of the taper by mig welding (that's what I did), or--if the end is threaded you can screw a tang into it. I seen where someone got around the problem by glueing a magnet to the end of the taper.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 18, 2018, 12:09:05 AM
Drill the narrow end of the taper,  tap, put a screw in to lengthen it. That will give the ejector thingy something to hit.  Some brands use the same taper angle but not the same length of the taper, Sherline for example uses a shorter portion.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 18, 2018, 12:36:24 AM
Thanks!

@Brian - welding is something I have no experience in (and at this point...no real interest...and some people I know will gasp at that). No threads.
@Chris - that should work. The rod is aluminum and will be easy to do.

Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 18, 2018, 12:56:29 AM
Just look at all the things you are learning on this build Zee. Both about machining and about your new tools. Still following along and think you are doing great.

Bill
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 18, 2018, 01:32:26 AM
Just look at all the things you are learning on this build Zee. Both about machining and about your new tools. Still following along and think you are doing great.

Thanks Bill. I'm really enjoying the tools as I learn more about them. It was a good purchase.
Yes...I'm learning a lot. Including how stupid/silly/newbie I can be.
I try not to let it bother me. I've never met anyone who didn't pull a dumb one now and then.

Speaking of which...going back to Chris's suggestion for my taper stuck issue. I was setting up the chuck in the tail stock and lo and behold...it has a screw at the end of it just as Chris had suggested I do for my die holder rod.  :facepalm2: I felt foolish for having asked the question. Had I simply done a little comparison of tools...it would have occurred to me. I take solace in the hope that others find these posts useful.

Update on the flywheel. So far so good. I put the assembly (flywheel with loctite rod) in the lathe and had a go at facing the rim. That went well. Had quite a bit of chatter so I spent some time fiddling with speed and feed. I was taking very light cuts in hopes the flywheel wouldn't break free.

Now to figure out how to do the outer rim.

If all goes well tomorrow...pics.
If all goes badly tomorrow...pics.

Pics of something anyway.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 18, 2018, 01:38:13 AM
Even with light cuts the rod alone likely isn't giving enough rigidity, hence the chatter.  If you are lucky you can find a speed/feed that will minimize or reduce it. The sharper the tool the better also. Just my two cents.

Bill
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 18, 2018, 01:48:55 AM
Two updates:

1) I'm using an index cutter and the rod is held by a live center.

2) I couldn't wait so I started setting up to do the outer rim. The flywheel broke free just as the cutter engaged. Had no problem facing the side of the flywheel.
Sort of reminds me of trying to open a jar. Try as one might, it won't open, then hand it to someone else and poof, like it wasn't even tight.

I had forgotten I had dropped the speed significantly. Perhaps that was a factor?
In any case...it's a try again. Later.

Pic today. You all may have to pound sand for pics tomorrow.  ;D
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 18, 2018, 01:58:16 AM
The speed could effect chatter, as can cutter hieght. For an indexed cutter, I have had the little screw that holds it to the shaft loosen up, letting the tip move, causing chatter. Check that too.


As for the taper, very clever of you to go back and n time, add the screw, then forget you did it!   :lolb:


Glad to see you diving in, best way to learn, all of us go through the same process. Doubt it ever ends!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 18, 2018, 02:01:53 AM
The interrupted cut on the rim probably contributed to the breakaway of the Loctite joint. I would try a good sharp HSS toolbit and see if that helps Zee.  And if you haven't checked this outfit out, I recommend them for final finishing and polishing. Don put me on to them and I keep them on hand now, not just the set of four, but also the 1500 grit ones which can be bought separately and work well for finishing operations.

http://micro-surface.com/index.php/products-by-type/dual-angle-detailing-files/dual-angle-micro-mesh-regular-files.html

Bill
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 18, 2018, 02:19:30 AM
Chris...Screw was tight. Cutter height was 'on center'. It was the same tool I use facing bar and had virtually no pip. So I don't think the cutter holder's adjustment screws had changed. (Having said that, when I went to turn the outer rim, I switched to a different index bit. I have little knowledge about the differences between index material, properties, etc. But I'd always felt good using this type and thought I'd try it. Except I couldn't.  ;D )

I wonder too that the rod is too long and could be springing. It's stainless steel. I would've used drill rod but didn't have any.

Bill...Thanks for the link. I've been looking for things like this.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: AOG on April 18, 2018, 02:30:38 AM
Zee, I have a suggestion. Try trueing up the inside face of the rim. Then flip the part and expand the chuck to grip the face you trued up. You get a much better grip. After you have rough cut the rim, go back to gripping on the shaft and do some light cuts to make it run true to the shaft.

Tony
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 18, 2018, 02:34:30 AM
Tony's suggestion is a good one. Another way to go, especially if the shaft hole is large enough, is to make an arbor with a step to fit the hole, and a center screw and thick washer to squeeze it onto the hub, like a circular saw arbor.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 18, 2018, 04:31:33 AM
Thanks Tony and Chris.

In preparation for my next question  ;D ...

One concern was having the flywheel too close to the chuck in order to face the rim.
Another concern was the shaft hole is 1/4" and the rod would be sticking fairly far from the chuck. (Hence the live center.)

The rim is 'domed'.

I have two approaches. Both involve cutting with the compound set at 5 degrees.

1) Cut from the nearest edge to just past the center line of the rim. Flip the flywheel. Cut from the nearest edge to the center.
2) Cut from the furthest edge to just past the center line of the rim. Set compound to -5 degrees. Cut from nearest edge to the center.

For the 1st approach, I suppose I could cut from the furthest edge each time.
For the 2nd approach, it shouldn't matter which edge I start with.

Does it matter?
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on April 18, 2018, 07:08:34 AM
I've never machined a flywheel with it on a bit of rod.

If it were me I would get the 4 jaw out then by the looks of it* you should just be able to hold by the inside of the rim with the jaws reversed, set it so that the inside of the rim runs as true as possible. In this position you can face one side, turn the diameter and add any tapers cutting towards the chuck, then face the hub followed by drilling and then boring use the crank material as your plug gauge once you get close to size.

Now flip it around and face the other side of the rim and hub.

* if you can't get the jaws inside then hold by the outside with minimal jaw engagement so you can still turn most of the diameter. Also if the part is cast fairly true you could use the 3-jaw to hold by the inside.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Engineering/EastonandAnderson/IMAG0873.jpg)
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Gas_mantle on April 18, 2018, 12:05:22 PM
Carl

I was having similar trouble machining flywheels a couple of years ago when I bought my first lathe.

The method I use seems to work well for wheels up to about 6", I'm not saying it is the best way but it may be worth considering.

1) Hold the casting in the chuck by the inside rim if you can and try to leave the rim clear of the jaws to allow machining of the full width. If you can't hold by the inside then the outside will do but leave as much of the width clear for machining as you can.

2)Do all the machining necessary to the side (face the rim, turn the hub etc)

3)Start turning the outside of the rim (If the cut is intermittent and the hold you have in the chuck isn't great go gently), Depending how you mounted it in the chuck you may be able to turn the full width but if not turn as much as you can. Don't worry too much about the finish yet but turn till you are slightly above the finished diameter you want and past the intermittent cut stage.

4) Once you are happy the outer rim is running true to the hub etc (nothing has shifted in the chuck) then drill and ream the centre hole to the finished size. Check everything is still running true before removing from the chuck.

5) With a piece of round stock in the chuck turn a very close fitting mandrel to locate in the wheel centre hole. Don't be tempted to use a bar of the right size and centre it - it needs to be turned so it is accurate to the lathe centre line.

6) Don't remove the mandrel from the lathe. Once you are happy the wheel fits closely with no wobble you can Loctite it in place with the unmachined side outermost. I use 638 and find it gives a solid bond easily strong enough for the job in hand

7) Leave the Loctite to cure for a few hours, using a dial indicator you should find the rim runs true. Now turn your side details, the hub etc (use a tailstock centre if you can). Although the Loctite is strong take it easy, the last thing you need is for it to break away now.

8 The final job now is just to lightly skim the outside of the rim - if you took care a stage 3 you should only have a few fine cuts to take to true it up an get a good finish.

9) Once satisfied with the result remove from the chuck then use a heat source to break the bond (on a small piece you may find something like a spirit burner flame with a gentle heat will do it )


Peter
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: kvom on April 18, 2018, 12:30:26 PM
I attended a small machine/product show a couple of weeks ago and talked to a Loctite guy.  I generally have been using 620 (green) and was interested in the difference with 638 that a lot on here use.  It seems they're pretty similar except for the cure time.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Jo on April 18, 2018, 01:16:54 PM
I attended a small machine/product show a couple of weeks ago and talked to a Loctite guy.  I generally have been using 620 (green) and was interested in the difference with 638 that a lot on here use.  It seems they're pretty similar except for the cure time.

620 is four times as viscose as 638 = it is thicker

620 takes 20 times as long to do its initial "stick" on steel (80mins vs 4 mins)

620 is not contaminant/oil tolerant and only comes in 250ml bottles... 638 also works on passive metals like Stainless.


I also have 601 which is even runnier.

Jo
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 18, 2018, 01:49:44 PM
Jason and Peter...thanks for the very detailed posts. Very helpful. I probably should have considered this before I had drilled/reamed for the crankshaft. I think the 3-jaw is probably out of the question. It would result in the rim not running true to the shaft. The 4-jaw would be better, particularly for keeping the rim true to the shaft, but I think my skill level would still result in an unsatisfactory result. I also wonder what the consequences are if I can't keep the shaft perfectly straight to the lathe.

I was following the process Dean had used. I'm not sure why he did it this way rather than what you all described. Perhaps some limitation in his equipment?

At this point I'll continue with what I was attempting. All I have left is the rim (and Jason's picture answered one of my questions). However, I may chuck the flywheel up and rough cut the rim. This would reduce the interrupted cut due to the bit of sprue sticking out. I should have done this before doing the crankshaft hole.

Thanks kvom and Jo for the additional information on the Loctite.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on April 18, 2018, 02:18:52 PM

620 is not contaminant/oil tolerant and only comes in 250ml bottles.. 

And 50mls (https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/272584260851?chn=ps&adgroupid=13585920426&rlsatarget=aud-133395220626%3Apla-142405550706&abcId=&adtype=pla&merchantid=115585453&poi=&googleloc=9045864&device=c&campaignid=207297426&crdt=0) and 36mls (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Loctite-38652-620-High-Temperature-Bearing-Mount-Bottle-36-milliliter/123055456855?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908110712%26meid%3D74f30ddc458f470d98eecc5a6bb4ed4b%26pid%3D100677%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D272584260851%26itm%3D123055456855&_trksid=p2385738.c100677.m4598)  ;)


Zee, as you have the hole you could try making the arbor as Peter suggests, it will be more solid than a length of rod.
642 is the one I usually reach for.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 18, 2018, 03:37:27 PM
Well I went ahead and roughed out the rim. I held the flywheel by its hub, machined one half, flipped the flywheel onto the other hub, and machined the other half.
(Outer faces were already done and not touched.)
I just eyeballed the center of the rim. (I have a bad eyeball.)

Overall I'm surprised and pleased. When I spin the flywheel by hand there is very little wobble. Unsurprisingly, there's quite a bit of wobble in the center line of the rim. That would be due to flipping the flywheel and not being quite true.

The next step is to either make the mandrel or continue with my method and finish the outer rim so I have the centerline truly centered and even.
Or, the next step is to leave as is. This isn't a show model.

Attached is family pic of what I have so far.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Jo on April 18, 2018, 03:46:47 PM

And 50mls (https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/272584260851?chn=ps&adgroupid=13585920426&rlsatarget=aud-133395220626%3Apla-142405550706&abcId=&adtype=pla&merchantid=115585453&poi=&googleloc=9045864&device=c&campaignid=207297426&crdt=0) and 36mls (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Loctite-38652-620-High-Temperature-Bearing-Mount-Bottle-36-milliliter/123055456855?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908110712%26meid%3D74f30ddc458f470d98eecc5a6bb4ed4b%26pid%3D100677%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D272584260851%26itm%3D123055456855&_trksid=p2385738.c100677.m4598)  ;)

Those are not in their UK catalogue... which lists 5 sizes of 638 and only one of the 620.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on April 18, 2018, 03:54:10 PM
Zee is not in the UK either :)
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Jo on April 18, 2018, 03:57:23 PM
The fact that 638 comes in multiple sizes is an indication that there is more demand for it and 620 is more specialised :stickpoke:

Jo
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 18, 2018, 04:48:15 PM
Very impressive Zee. That's a nice collelction of parts you have there, and the flywheel looks good as well.

Bill
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 18, 2018, 05:44:39 PM
Nice progress! 


Been waiting to say this back to you for a while,  how do you get so much done? Do you ever sleep?!


 :Lol:
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 18, 2018, 06:32:00 PM
Thanks Bill.

Been waiting to say this back to you for a while,  how do you get so much done? Do you ever sleep?!

I hate to burst your bubble (no I don't) but you don't have a monopoly on shop elves.

And I have better cookies.

Taken a count of your elves lately?  ;D
I see a new face here every few days. I wondered where they came from and why but when I ask...they just look at the floor sheepishly and mumble something about crap cookies.

If that results in a cookie war...so be it...it can only result in better cookies for everyone.
(But it sounds like...from the elves...you have a ways to go before I need to worry about improving mine  :lolb: )

Hm....I see a cartoon reference coming up.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 18, 2018, 07:01:37 PM
Thanks Bill.

Been waiting to say this back to you for a while,  how do you get so much done? Do you ever sleep?!

I hate to burst your bubble (no I don't) but you don't have a monopoly on shop elves.

And I have better cookies.

Taken a count of your elves lately?  ;D
I see a new face here every few days. I wondered where they came from and why but when I ask...they just look at the floor sheepishly and mumble something about crap cookies.

If that results in a cookie war...so be it...it can only result in better cookies for everyone.
(But it sounds like...from the elves...you have a ways to go before I need to worry about improving mine  :lolb: )

Hm....I see a cartoron reference coming up.
Like a certain coyote catapulting an anvil?    :Lol:


Have you counted your tools this afternoon?  That was Shop Elf Moving Company infiltrating yor shop to recce the place before stripping it bare!   :LittleDevil:


This ought to be Really confusing to newcomers here...   :ROFL:
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on April 18, 2018, 07:18:44 PM
Nice family shot Zee  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Cletus
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Jo on April 18, 2018, 07:23:37 PM
This ought to be Really confusing to newcomers here...   :ROFL:

Just wait till we get onto discussions of Tutu's, working on sports cars in bikinis or what might happen if someone comes visiting with chocolates, bottles of red wine and sets of castings  :mischief:

Zee: Its looking good but I think your set of castings would look better with studs and their appropriate nuts on show :embarassed:

Jo
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 18, 2018, 07:51:59 PM
Thanks Eric.

Jo...I won't say anything if you won't say anything.  :mischief:

For Chris...

4XNr-BQgpd0
Worked on the cranks. Two more parts involving 'aw crap'.

The first pic was after facing and drilling/reaming for the crankshaft.
Then I went to the mill. I indicated off the crankshaft hole and then found, drilled, tapped the hole for the connecting rod.
1st 'aw crap'...I tend to squish my parts. There's a couple of dimples on the large face. I think they'll come out with some sanding.

The second pic shows the set up to drill/tap for the set screw to the crankshaft.
2nd 'aw crap'...as much as I checked and double checked measuring with an edge finder...the old zee-eyeball missed that the hole was slightly off to the side.
When I did the 2nd crank, I was more careful and realized what had happened. On the 1st crank, the top of the spinny part (which is thicker than the part you touch off of) was the bit that actually touched the part.

Overall though...so far so good. I haven't ruined a casting as far as I can tell. I hope I haven't jinxed myself.

Last pic shows the finished cranks with one on the crankshaft.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on April 18, 2018, 08:34:46 PM
Good work so far.  It's nice to see that you jumped right in immediately after leaving the w**k place. 

I hate to admit that Jo is correct but those slot-head screws on the crossheads just look wrong.  Join the happy throng of studly machinists.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on April 18, 2018, 08:39:34 PM
I think that is one of the downsides to all the PMR engine kits as they all come with slotted screws. Fine for while you are building up the engine but better not to put them back after painting.

Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 18, 2018, 08:48:47 PM
For Chris...

4XNr-BQgpd0
...


Bugs!!!!   My hero!

Now, where did I put that Illudium Q38 Space Modulator??

 :cheers:
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 18, 2018, 09:25:09 PM
Studs.  :facepalm2:

They are certainly in my future. For this engine though...well we'll see how it turns out.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 18, 2018, 10:26:27 PM
Studs.  :facepalm2:

They are certainly in my future. For this engine though...well we'll see how it turns out.
Might as well try putting them in in this engine. Remember, practize makes prefekt.


Easy to make, just cut the head off a long screw for the stud, add a nut. If you get adventurous, make some scale looking nuts from hex. If not, hardware store nuts to start out.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Jo on April 19, 2018, 06:42:37 AM
Easy to make, just cut the head off a long screw for the stud, add a nut. If you get adventurous, make some scale looking nuts from hex. If not, hardware store nuts to start out.

 :'(
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Stuart on April 19, 2018, 07:20:28 AM
🤫😢😱
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on April 19, 2018, 02:57:21 PM

Easy to make, just cut the head off a long screw for the stud, add a nut. If you get adventurous, make some scale looking nuts from hex. If not, hardware store nuts to start out.

Better yet, Loctite the nut to the headless screw bit and use the resulting structure as a screw that looks like a stud.  That's how it's done in the TLAR workshop.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 19, 2018, 04:13:46 PM

Easy to make, just cut the head off a long screw for the stud, add a nut. If you get adventurous, make some scale looking nuts from hex. If not, hardware store nuts to start out.

Better yet, Loctite the nut to the headless screw bit and use the resulting structure as a screw that looks like a stud.  That's how it's done in the TLAR workshop.
Neat idea.

TLAR? Whats that?
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on April 19, 2018, 04:21:39 PM
That Looks About Right
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 21, 2018, 01:56:18 PM
Started on the cylinders.
Has not gone so well but it's too early to say whether one of the cylinders ends up on the wall of learning.
The biggest boo-boo was getting one of the valve holes off-center.

1st pic shows the cylinder ready to work on. The 'x' tells me that's the end that mounts to the base.
2nd pic shows that end faced. The power cross slide gives an amazing finish.
3rd pic shows the cylinder bored for the piston. Again, the power X drive was helpful.
4th pic shows the valve hole drilled and reamed. The rod in the piston hole was used to center but I messed up centering the valve hole on one cylinder.
5th pic shows the hidden steam passages drilled. Then drilled/tapped for a set screw that will plug the passages.

Later, I'll use the same bit used to drill the hidden passages to center the part for drilling the angle passages from the piston bore to the hidden passage.
I'll use a bit of wire or wood so I can see/feel when I get to the hidden passage.
I also still have to drill/tap the steam inlet and the holes for mounting the cylinder to the base and the holes for the head covers.

This is the 2nd time I'm posting this. The 1st time I'd forgotten to resize the pictures and the post didn't take. Odd? I wish the text had at least posted.
Also, I've noticed once in a while that a reply to a post ends up with a 403 error. Retries sometimes work. If they don't, I back arrow to my post, copy the text, get out, get back in, and paste the text in a new reply.
I think it happens if I happen to be posting a reply at the same time as someone else.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Gas_mantle on April 21, 2018, 02:17:08 PM
Looks fine to me Carl  :ThumbsUp:

I've made a couple of spool valve engines and find they work quite well. When I made my Potty Mill I had fairly crude tools and didn't have a mill so I drilled the ports very slightly off. To correct things I just made 3 or 4 valve spools all very similar but not the same and picked the one that worked the best .

I guess I cheated a bit but it worked  ;)
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 21, 2018, 03:34:57 PM
Nice work on the cylinders Zee. The slightly off center hole shouldn't be a problem. The articulation between the valve itself and the cam follower arm should take care of it unless its way off.

Bill
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 23, 2018, 10:55:00 PM
Thanks guys.

Well I can't say I'm ecstatic with the results but I'm pretty satisfied the cylinders should work.
The biggest issue was finding square. Not a lot to go on with these shapes, not to mention the sparse experience.

As people have mentioned on the forum...castings are for the experienced although my first model was a casting.
A lot depends on how simple the model is and how much help is available. In my case, my first model came with a how-to video.

Things are a bit 'off' but should be okay. Biggest boo-boos were getting the valve bore off center on one cylinder and crushing the cylinder in the vise that caused dimples on the faces.

I most feared the steam passages but they found each other.

1st pic just shows what I did to find the center line.
2nd pic shows the steam passage into the piston bore. I had used a piece of wire in the passage I was trying to meet up with to be sure I got deep enough.
3rd pic shows the cylinders thus far. I still need to drill/tap the holes for the covers.

So far, so  :pinkelephant:

Been slow the last few days. Once again I found myself passing a gallstone. I should probably go ahead and have that little lobe of liver lopped off.  :facepalm2:
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 23, 2018, 11:25:31 PM
Nice! Any forward progress, even if a little off center, is progress. This is one of those hobbies that you can learn some by reading , but it needs doing to really get it.

 :popcorn:
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 24, 2018, 01:50:38 AM
Zee, things like good in the pictures. If you think the dimples will be a problem, the heads will cover them most likely, but if you worry about sealing the heads for ait leaks, you can always add a thin paper gasket for insurance.

Bill
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 24, 2018, 02:05:08 AM
This is one of those hobbies that you can learn some by reading , but it needs doing to really get it.

True for most anything in life. People often ask me about learning to program. "Start programming" is where the answer usually ends up. Pick a small project and do it.
Change 'programming' to machining, wood working, writing, dancing,...pretty much anything.

Zee, things like good in the pictures. If you think the dimples will be a problem, the heads will cover them most likely, but if you worry about sealing the heads for ait leaks, you can always add a thin paper gasket for insurance.

Thanks Bill. I figure a little sanding and the gaskets will do it. Since I won't be running on steam but on a 'limitless' air supply...I'm hoping it'll run. Looks very promising so far.

Gotta say...I'm really enjoying this.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: bent on April 24, 2018, 05:39:46 PM
Quote
True for most anything in life. People often ask me about learning to program. "Start programming" is where the answer usually ends up. Pick a small project and do it.
Change 'programming' to machining, wood working, writing, dancing,...pretty much anything.

Yup, gotta agree ... except dancing.   ::)
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 25, 2018, 05:16:03 PM
Not a lot to show.

Drilled and tapped for the cylinder covers.
Pic shows one 'installed'.
I tried to square everything up...then set the covers on then used a little bit of eyeball and a square and then a drill bit to 'spot' where I wanted to drill/tap.

You can see a nice boo-boo on the left cylinder to the right of the valve hole.

 :embarassed: When I flipped the lever to engage the cross slide power feed...I'd forgotten the carriage slide was the one engaged.

Ugly but won't affect performance.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 25, 2018, 06:21:29 PM
Just do the other to match Zee and all it a personalized feature :)

Bill
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: ddmckee54 on April 25, 2018, 06:49:36 PM
Zee:

Let's just call it an "Undocumented Feature" and charge extra for it.

Don
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 25, 2018, 07:01:01 PM
Or do the same to the other so they match, then its per design.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 25, 2018, 07:42:44 PM
Nah. I'll just place a mini-tutu on the other cylinder. That should serve to distract.  ;D
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on April 25, 2018, 08:00:13 PM
Artistic freedom is what I’d call it: hey, it’s “handmade” .  Great job Zee. Once you get to going, man, you’re on a roll :cheers: :ThumbsUp:

Cletus
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Craig DeShong on April 25, 2018, 11:00:33 PM
American Indians intentionally place a,fault in their jewelry so that the piece is never perfect.  Sounds like a good explication to me.  I've used it myself.   :pinkelephant:
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 25, 2018, 11:23:28 PM
American Indians intentionally place a,fault in their jewelry so that the piece is never perfect.  Sounds like a good explication to me.  I've used it myself.   :pinkelephant:

 :ThumbsUp: I like that. Now I can explain to T why I'm not perfect.  :Lol:

Finished the head covers.
1st pic shows a machinist clamp holding the head cover to the base so I could use a transfer punch and mark the holes.
I didn't need the machinist clamp. Finger pressure was enough to prevent movement.

2nd pic shows getting ready to spot drill the 3rd hole in one of the head covers.
I used foam to keep the parallels from moving.

3rd pic shows the head covers in place with the screws. Just checking.

Now the question/problem is going to be transfering the holes to the cylinders and keeping the cylinders square to each other.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 26, 2018, 01:11:01 AM
As Cletus said, you ARE on a roll Zee. Nice work, but you realize you are setting a precedent now...no more newbie excuses  ;D

Bill
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 26, 2018, 01:36:17 AM
As Cletus said, you ARE on a roll Zee. Nice work, but you realize you are setting a precedent now...no more newbie excuses  ;D

Thanks Bill.

How about 'newbie 2nd grade'? I may have made that.  ;D
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Jo on April 26, 2018, 07:36:01 AM
Good progress Zee,  :)

 :thinking: Hey Zee have you thought of finding a box to put all your made bits in? That heap looks like bait for the wrong sort of Workshop gnome  :paranoia: ... they will be just waiting for you to knock it so that they can practise their cricket fielding and scurry off with the bits you have made  :facepalm:

Jo

P.S. Zeeprogrammer  :stickpoke: should it not now be Zee_retired_programmer  ;)
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 26, 2018, 11:35:06 AM
Thanks Jo.

:thinking: Hey Zee have you thought of finding a box to put all your made bits in? That heap looks like bait for the wrong sort of Workshop gnome  :paranoia: ... they will be just waiting for you to knock it so that they can practise their cricket fielding and scurry off with the bits you have made  :facepalm:

Not to worry. I have a very effective anti-Chris's elves/gnomes system in place. (From what I can tell, they are the only 'wrong sort of Workshop gnome'.)  ;D

P.S. Zeeprogrammer  :stickpoke: should it not now be Zee_retired_programmer  ;)

Nice idea but not quite retired from programming. Note the 'system' I just mentioned.  ;D
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Craig DeShong on April 26, 2018, 02:12:19 PM
Look'in good 'newbie 2nd grade'  :popcorn:
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 26, 2018, 02:39:12 PM

Not to worry. I have a very effective anti-Chris's elves/gnomes system in place.

Then who is that elf behind you?    :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 26, 2018, 05:38:24 PM
Not to worry. I have a very effective anti-Chris's elves/gnomes system in place.
Then who is that elf behind you?    :LittleDevil:

That's no elf, that's my wife.  ;D

Got the valves done.

1st pic shows one being turned down to diameter. Used a live center since the part was sticking out about 1 1/4".
2nd pic shows a test fitting.
3rd pic shows the slots being turned to diameter. It's a posed shot. The live center was used. Probably not generally a good idea to remove and then replace the live center but the slot diameters are not critical.
4th pic shows drilling for the steam hole and the clevis pin.
5th pic shows the valves done.

The red marked one is to remind me it's for the right cylinder. But I don't think it matters.

The left one enters the famed 'wall of learning'. Somehow I converted 7/16 to 1/8 when I walked from the drawing to the machine.  :facepalm2:

This is one time where the provided raw material was much more than needed. I'm thinking they knew I'd have a go and would need more.  ;D
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 26, 2018, 05:57:14 PM
A family shot.

Several of the parts need some finishing.

In the upper right corner is the material for the remaining parts:

Pistons, eccentrics, eccentric hubs, crossheads, and piping.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Gas_mantle on April 26, 2018, 06:04:06 PM
Nice work Carl  :ThumbsUp:

We ought to have a runner before too long  :)
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 26, 2018, 06:04:14 PM
Looking good - going to be puffing away soon!

 :popcorn:
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 26, 2018, 06:53:36 PM
Very nice work Zee. Can't wait to see it running!!

Bill
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: bent on April 26, 2018, 08:19:00 PM
Yup, those look pretty good.  I recall making two valves for my one-cylinder PMR #3, so you are doing good to make 3 for 2 in my book. ;)
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 27, 2018, 03:04:55 PM
Thanks very much!

Finished the pistons today.

1st pic shows a 1/4" end mill be used to mill the recess for the nut. Plans called for 5/16 but I didn't have that. Nut is smaller than 1/4" so no problem.
Backup plan was to grind a drill down and use it.

2nd pic shows a parting tool being used to make the slots for the rings.

3rd pic shows the completed pistons with one assembled.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Gas_mantle on April 27, 2018, 03:14:05 PM
Carl, I don't now what you intend to use for piston rings but I find rolled up graphite yarn soaked in oil works great

http://www.maidstone-engineering.com/fittings/misc-fittings/graphite-yarn-1-16-twist-approx-4ft
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 27, 2018, 04:13:01 PM
Carl, I don't now what you intend to use for piston rings but I find rolled up graphite yarn soaked in oil works great

Thanks!

The kit came with teflon rings and I'll stick with that.

If it makes any difference, the engine will only be run on air.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 27, 2018, 04:18:43 PM
Two parts closer to a runner Zee. The pistons look good from what I can see in the pictures.

Bill
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 27, 2018, 04:56:39 PM
Two parts closer to a runner Zee. The pistons look good from what I can see in the pictures.

Thanks bill. The pistons themselves seem to be near spot on (perhaps a thou under) and fit easily into the cylinder.
With the teflon rings though, they don't go in. It may be that I didn't cut the ring slots deep enough but there may be something I don't know about fitting such a piston into the cylinder.

I've never made pistons with rings before.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 27, 2018, 05:00:12 PM
Remember that 3D printed spindle stop I made?
Remember the little 'idiot' sign I made to remind myself to remove the spindle stop before turning on the machine?
Remember you might have said to yourselves, "yeah, I'm sure THAT will help"?

A clever idea for use only by a clever person.

I'm printing another spindle stop.

 :cussing:
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 27, 2018, 05:28:30 PM
And maybe a bigger sign?  ;)

Bill
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 27, 2018, 05:41:15 PM
And maybe a bigger sign?  ;)

Thank you for your support.  ;D

Worked on one of the crossheads.

1st pic shows an end being squared off.
2nd pic shows the hole for holding the connecting rod. (There's a piece of rod on the other side of the vise to keep pressure on the vise the same.)
3rd pic shows milling out the area for the connecting rod.
4th pic shows the part being cut off using a slitting saw.
5th pic shows the crosshead almost done.

I haven't put in the drilled/tapped hole for the piston rod yet. I believe the cylinder is a tad off center so will wait and see if I can mark where the hole should be.

Speaking of the slitting saw. It reminded me of the first time I'd used one.
The part was successful cut but an eagle-eyed member noticed something odd about the setup.
The slitting saw was installed upside down.
I'd essentially rubbed the part to completion.  :facepalm2:
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on April 27, 2018, 06:27:28 PM
Remember that 3D printed spindle stop I made?
Remember the little 'idiot' sign I made to remind myself to remove the spindle stop before turning on the machine?
Remember you might have said to yourselves, "yeah, I'm sure THAT will help"?

A clever idea for use only by a clever person.

I'm printing another spindle stop.

Maybe you could use a Sharpie to write "remove spindle stop" on the inner surface of your safety glasses' lens?

Brings to mind a sig I saw on another forum...

A few learn by reading. Some learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 27, 2018, 06:34:38 PM
Remember that 3D printed spindle stop I made?
Remember the little 'idiot' sign I made to remind myself to remove the spindle stop before turning on the machine?
Remember you might have said to yourselves, "yeah, I'm sure THAT will help"?

A clever idea for use only by a clever person.

I'm printing another spindle stop.

Maybe you could use a Sharpie to write "remove spindle stop" on the inner surface of your safety glasses' lens?

Brings to mind a sig I saw on another forum...

A few learn by reading. Some learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.

 :lolb: :lolb: :lolb: :lolb: :lolb: :lolb: :lolb:
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 27, 2018, 06:45:43 PM
Remember that 3D printed spindle stop I made?
Remember the little 'idiot' sign I made to remind myself to remove the spindle stop before turning on the machine?
Remember you might have said to yourselves, "yeah, I'm sure THAT will help"?

A clever idea for use only by a clever person.

I'm printing another spindle stop.

Maybe you could use a Sharpie to write "remove spindle stop" on the inner surface of your safety glasses' lens?

Brings to mind a sig I saw on another forum...

A few learn by reading. Some learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.

As in 'doing'. To learn by experience or not?

In my case...I just forgot to turn off the fence.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on April 27, 2018, 06:55:52 PM
Tie some Tutu elastic to your spindle stop and fix the other end to the ceiling that way it will have to be held in place and will automatically release ;)
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: fumopuc on April 27, 2018, 07:30:51 PM
Remember that 3D printed spindle stop I made?
Remember the little 'idiot' sign I made to remind myself to remove the spindle stop before turning on the machine?
Remember you might have said to yourselves, "yeah, I'm sure THAT will help"?

A clever idea for use only by a clever person.

I'm printing another spindle stop.

Maybe you could use a Sharpie to write "remove spindle stop" on the inner surface of your safety glasses' lens?

Brings to mind a sig I saw on another forum...

A few learn by reading. Some learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.


Hi Marv, as always, great humor.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 27, 2018, 07:31:08 PM
Tie some Tutu elastic to your spindle stop and fix the other end to the ceiling that way it will have to be held in place and will automatically release ;)

 :thinking: Then I'm back to a 3rd hand with #3 holding the spindle stop in place.  :thinking:
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 27, 2018, 07:43:11 PM
Well that was close...

I'd not used/installed the 4-jaw yet and it was time...

Both chucks have a back plate that inserts into a ring lock on the spindle.
I took the 3-jaw off and started installing the 4-jaw.
I did a little rotation and it seemed the 4-jaw chuck rotated.
What? This can't be a screw on.
Twisted a bit more and it popped off.
Got my hand a little but not much.
A very good thing I'd built that wood holder!!!

So then I discover that 4 bolts are missing that are used to hold the chuck to the backing plate.
No idea why they hadn't mounted the chuck to the plate.
The 3-jaw was already secured to its plate.
I suppose because the 3-jaw came installed on the lathe.

But here's my question...in looking at the backing plate...4 bolts...

Does that mean I might find a collet chuck that fits that?
If so, how is this spec'd so I can find a collet chuck that fits?

Or, is this what is meant when people talk about making a backing plate...to fit the plate in the picture and to fit a collet chuck?
And even then...what consideration is there in choosing the collet chuck?

This also tells me I have two different backing plates. One with 3 holes (for the 3-jaw) and one with 4 (for the 4-jaw).
Is there something I need to know about this? (Seems the plate in my old mini worked for both chucks).

Do I have the terms correct? I'm calling that thing on the spindle a backing plate.

Thanks.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Jo on April 28, 2018, 07:09:24 AM
Do I have the terms correct? I'm calling that thing on the spindle a backing plate.

Thanks.

Hi Zee, yes that is a back plate but please screw it to the back of your four jaw chuck rather than try using it for multiple jobs.

Back plates can be purchased already threaded to fit on the nose of your lathe then you turn the shoulder to fit what ever chuck you want to fit. Then you drill for the chuck fixings; making sure you drill the right number of holes, in the right place  ::)

As you can guess there are a number of opportunities of "Zee_features" to be added to back plates  :facepalm:

Jo
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on April 28, 2018, 07:48:46 AM
Zee's spindle is not threaded. Its a flange and keyhole plate mount

Zee you need to buy or make a backplate with a plain bore and the 3 flange mounting studs and nuts at the back and then machine the front to fit the register in your coller chuck which will more than likely have 3 hole mounting.

As Jo says fit one chuck to one backplate and don't keep swapping them about.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on April 28, 2018, 10:52:47 AM
Hi Jason,
 I re read what Zee posted & it reads that the 4 jaw had a back plate, the issue being that the 4 bolts that hold the chuck to the backplate hadn’t been installed! The 3 jaw has its own ..... with bolts.
Both insert into a lock ring to be held on.
That is right Zee isn’t it?

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 28, 2018, 01:56:15 PM
Thanks Jo and Jason.
Yes, Kerrin, correct.

This has been helpful and is making things more clear for me.

Here's more detailed information.

1st pic shows the 3 posts that go on the back plate. I discovered I have a spare set.
2nd pic shows the spindle. The 3 posts go through the large holes and then a ring rotated to hold them. Then you can tighten the nuts.
3rd pic shows a back plate being held up to the spindle.
4th pic shows the various parts of the 4-jaw. Back plate, chuck, and bolts to put together.
5th pic shows the 3-jaw. Note that the posts go into a kind of triangular shaped area. On the 4-jaw it's more of a square.

It sounds like I need to make/get a back plate like the one on the 3-jaw, find a collet chuck of appropriate size (requiring 3 bolts) and modify the back plate to put the holes for the 3 bolts in the right place. I suspect too I may have to trepan the back plate for the chuck. I hope not.

Found a problem with the 4-jaw. The bolts stand too high. 6th pic shows a gap between the back plate and the chuck. At center top you can see one of the bolts.

Can the bolts be shaved down? They are socket head cap screws. I'm thinking of replacing with hex bolts (if I can find them).

The cam-lock on the lathe is a blessing. I have paws for hands (it's near impossible to find XXL gloves that fit) and the mini was a pain.

Just looked at Precision Mathews' site. They offer a spare back plate. They also now offer DRO system for lathes.  :thinking:


Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on April 28, 2018, 02:20:36 PM
Hi Jason,
 I re read what Zee posted & it reads that the 4 jaw had a back plate, the issue being that the 4 bolts that hold the chuck to the backplate hadn’t been installed! The 3 jaw has its own ..... with bolts.
Both insert into a lock ring to be held on.
That is right Zee isn’t it?

Cheers Kerrin

I was advising how to mount a collet chuck which Zee was asking about not his current 3 & 4 jaw arrangements.


Zee you could probably slightly counterbore the 4-jaws backplate so the heads don't stand so pround
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on April 28, 2018, 11:03:42 PM
Hi Jason,
 Got it! Sorry it’s been a long week! 72 hours so far and another 36 to go.......looking forward to my days off, there’s just not going to be enuff of them

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 29, 2018, 12:34:14 AM
Not so for Zee. He has endless shop hours now .... Except when SWMBO has other plans ;D

Bill
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Gas_mantle on April 29, 2018, 12:39:27 AM
Carl, I'm interested to see that your lathe has that extra quick release chuck plate, my machine has what looks to be the same fitting but I haven't seen another one till now.

I'm interested in buying a faceplate and a collet chuck for my lathe so I could do with 2 more of those adapter plates (or whatever they are called) I only know of one seller in the UK who has them and they are out of stock at the moment :-(
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on April 29, 2018, 04:32:33 PM
Peter your faceplate should mount directly onto the flange as they don't have backing plates. You can also machine up a can backplate that is intended for screw on spindles for your collet chuck. What is your exact lathe again?
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Gas_mantle on April 29, 2018, 05:17:54 PM
Hi Jason, I'm glad you chipped in as I'm not 100% sure what I need to start using a collet chuck and faceplate and still have the quick release fitting. My machine is a Chester DB10 which I think is the only one in their range fitted like this.

http://www.chesterhobbystore.com/db10-super-lathe-10250-p.asp

It seems to have an extra plate behind the chuck and has  3 studs to pass through the spindle plate into a slotted keyholes. I'd like to still have the quick release facility with a collett chuck and a faceplate so I'm assuming I need 2 more of the plates ?

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/981/41063813424_206594659f_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/25yEM6b)

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/945/41063849684_7099bf8e94_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/25yEXSm)

Can't I just buy 2 more of these plates on the left and mount one each on a faceplate and a collett chuck ?

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/952/41740099272_667130825b_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/26AqVj1)

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/975/27912832678_8764070918_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/JwyyFQ)

How do I get my lathe to accept something like this :-

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Machines-Accessories/Lathes/SIEG-SC6-Lathe/SC6-and-C6-Lathe-Headstock-Accessories/ER32-Lathe-Collet-Chuck-125mm


Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 29, 2018, 05:51:45 PM
That looks exactly like the kit I have.
3rd picture down, on the left, is what I've been calling the back plate.
I have two but they are different. One for mounting to the 3jaw and one to the 4jaw.
The one for the 3jaw is just like the one you have pictured. Note the somewhat triangular shape allowing for 3 bolts to the 3jaw chuck.
My other back plate has a more square shape allowing for 4 bolts to the 4jaw chuck.

So I too am looking for a 3rd back plate to mount to a collet chuck.
However, I'm looking for a 5C collet chuck. Mainly because I have 5C collets.
Not sure why I would use something else but would gladly listen to reasons.

Your lathe is somewhat similar to mine. Main differences are in the head stock controls.

But I'm curious about the lead screw protection. Is that something I can add to my machine?
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Gas_mantle on April 29, 2018, 06:00:31 PM
Hi Carl,

I've just had a look my 2 backplates are different too (one is 3 hole and one is 4), I hadn't noticed until you mentioned it but I'll bear it in mind when I buy new ones.

What I want to do is have a collett chuck and a faceplate permanently attached to its own backplate so I can swap them over easily.

The leadscrew cover was already fitted to my machine so I don't know it you can fit your own, to be honest though I found it easy enough to keep the screw clean when I had my smaller machine.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on April 29, 2018, 06:27:52 PM
Karl,

If your leadscrew concern is keeping swarf out of the threads, consider doing what I did -  a sawed-off toothbrush mounted to a steel bar and stuck to the side of the apron with a magnet.  It remains in place whether or not the leadscrew is rotating.   

(http://www.use.com/images/s_2/0901f6d347281b76c8af_6.jpg) (http://www.use.com/0901f6d347281b76c8af?p=6)
(http://www.use.com/images/clicklarge3.gif) (http://www.use.com/0901f6d347281b76c8af?p=6)
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on April 29, 2018, 06:31:18 PM
For 3-jaw and collet chucks you will need one of those backlates with 3 holes. For 4-jaw you need one with 4 holes but the faceplates are machined with the hole in them to fit over the spigot on the spindle and have the 3 keyhole studs screwed straight into them. This applies for both keyhole fixing lathes or ones like mine that have the fiddly nuts and washers.

Some of the latest Warco WM 250 machines and the SPG ones use the keyhole plates and are the same spindle nose as the chester so may be worth seeing what they have in stock.

If you do make your own there is no need to machine the smaller dia on the headstock side of the backplate or the "triangle" just use cap head bolts to hold the collet chuck in place into counterbored holes. Or better still have a chuck where the bolts enter from the front and you just need to tap 3 holes in the backplate/
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Gas_mantle on April 29, 2018, 06:37:59 PM
Hi Jason, so am I right in saying a faceplate will sit snugly over the spindle register in my 2nd pic ?  It is 52mm dia, is that a standard size ? Presumably faceplates have studs on the same PCD as the spindle ?
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on April 29, 2018, 06:40:29 PM
yes the faceplate foes straight onto the spindle nose, I've added photos to my post where you can see the backplates on the chucks but not on the faceplate
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Gas_mantle on April 29, 2018, 06:44:13 PM
Ok thanks, looks like I just need to speak to Chester or SPG to buy 1 backplate for a collett chuck :-)
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on April 29, 2018, 06:48:42 PM
Toolco look to have them in stock, worth a ring or e-mail just to be sure they are the same 52mm bore. You can make the 3 studs to fit your keyhole ring

http://www.toolco.co.uk/products/lathe-backplate-1022-series-lathes-metalworking
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Gas_mantle on April 29, 2018, 06:49:32 PM
Jason, can you remove your lathe chucks with a piece of work in them and locate them accurately on your rotary table without needing to centre them etc ?
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on April 29, 2018, 06:53:00 PM
No, I have separate chucks and ER Collet chuck for the R/T
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Gas_mantle on April 29, 2018, 06:56:46 PM
Thanks, I see what I can get at Doncaster, if not I'll speak to Toolco :-)
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on April 29, 2018, 07:37:15 PM
My lathe has a similar spindle nose, DIN 55022 size 5, on this style the boss on the end has a 7 degree 7 minute 30 second taper. I'm wondering of the lathes that you guys are talking about here also have a taper on the spindle to locate the chuck?

When I purchased my 3 & 6 jaw Bison chucks I made the back plates from blanks because the machined back plates cost more than the chucks at that time. Getting the taper correct was a fun exercise as it needs to lock up at the same time the face of the back plate contacts the flange on the spindle nose.

Anyway I was just curious about the taper?

Dave
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 29, 2018, 07:50:17 PM
@Marv - Thanks. That idea went into my 'to-do' list.

@Gas_mantle - I was able to do that when I had my mini-lathe and rotary table. I don't have a large enough rotary table now but the ability to move the chuck from the lathe to the rotary table is something I've been wanting to look at.

@Dave - I don't see any kind of taper on the back plate. I'll take another look when I swap out the 4-jaw.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 29, 2018, 07:53:27 PM
Not a great job on the elbow pipe but for my first one I'm fairly satisfied.

1st pic shows one end being faced. Forgot to take a picture when I drilled/tapped it. You'll see why in a moment.
2nd pic took a page from Dean's website. I threaded a rod and used it to square the pipe for the 2nd end. That end is just drilled.
3rd pic shows the elbow with pipe nipple and tube. Also the T pipe I've yet to do.

And...the 3rd pic shows the bit that broke when I was drilling the 1st end. That put me off my game and I didn't think about a pic.  ;D

[EDIT] When trying to set up the 1st end, I used a dead center to eyeball the center of the end. Worked okay. Main problem was the pipe was slightly crooked so the facing doesn't look very good.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Gas_mantle on April 29, 2018, 07:57:35 PM
Dave, the spindle on my machine is parallel, from what I can see your equipment looks to be more expensive so I'd guess yours is probably better engineered  :)

Carl, at the moment I don't have a rotary table chuck so it would be useful if I could use a lathe chuck easily.

Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 29, 2018, 08:43:56 PM
Nice job on the elbow for the pipes. Don't worry about the broken drill, not an uncommon problem - either from moving parts or when they get dull, it happens. I've taken to buying multiple spares of some of the most used sizes, places like Victor Machinery sell good cobalt steel ones at a good price.

 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 29, 2018, 08:57:50 PM
Don't worry about the broken drill, not an uncommon problem - either from moving parts or when they get dull, it happens. I've taken to buying multiple spares of some of the most used sizes

I've taken to doing the same whenever I have one to replace...I buy a few more.
I'll be keeping the drill bit. It can be ground down and used like a D bit if ever needed.

Finished the T-elbow. This went far better.

Pretty much down to the eccentric hubs and eccentrics. Plus a few holes yet to drill and some finishing.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 29, 2018, 10:02:18 PM
At this rate Zee, your best be thinking about getting materials on order for the Stanley Steamer  :naughty:

Bill
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 29, 2018, 10:26:57 PM
At this rate Zee, your best be thinking about getting materials on order for the Stanley Steamer  :naughty:

Bill
Ooh, yeah, we'd love to see that!   :stickpoke:
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 29, 2018, 10:28:06 PM
At this rate Zee, your best be thinking about getting materials on order for the Stanley Steamer  :naughty:

Yous can call be Zeep, yous can call be Carl, but you DON'T calls be Chris.

The Stanley is Chris' job. Go give him a poke.
And keep doing it.

 :lolb:
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 29, 2018, 10:29:59 PM
At this rate Zee, your best be thinking about getting materials on order for the Stanley Steamer  :naughty:

Yous can call be Zeep, yous can call be Carl, but you DON'T calls be Chris.

The Stanley is Chris' job. Go give him a poke.
And keep doing it.

 :lolb:


Yeah, yeah, its on my list next!!
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on April 29, 2018, 10:55:01 PM
Nice work Zee. Hey, at least you were able to retrieve the broken bit. I think a Stanley Zeeamer would be a great project for a new retiree with all that time on his hands  :stir: :stickpoke:

Cletus
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 29, 2018, 11:29:07 PM
Nice work Zee. Hey, at least you were able to retrieve the broken bit. I think a Stanley Zeeamer would be a great project for a new old retiree with all that time on his hands  :stir:

Please refer to previous post.  ;D

And he's got elves to help.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 30, 2018, 12:16:38 AM
Speaking of the Stanley...If I have a dream...it would be a 4 cylinder VW air-cooled engine for a 1965 or earlier Beetle.
If anyone knows plans for such a thing...

I miss my 65 Beetle. 6V system. Had to put in a 12V converter to get an 8-track to work. The car's horn wouldn't work unless I was doing 20mph or higher.
Even then, the 8-track wouldn't change tracks. I had to drill a hole, wire a pencil to the solenoid, and press it when I heard a thunk when it tried to change tracks.

The back seat was small...but service-able  ;D

I went the back way through the army base and would have to speed up down a hill to skip over a small river to see my girlfriend.

I like to think I was more stupid then than now.

P.S. MPs are not your friend.

P.P.S I'm still kinda stupid.  :lolb:
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 30, 2018, 12:36:06 AM
Nice work Zee. Hey, at least you were able to retrieve the broken bit. I think a Stanley Zeeamer would be a great project for a new old retiree with all that time on his hands  :stir:

Please refer to previous post.  ;D

And he's got elves to help.
AHA! Zee finally admitted that my elves are helpful, rather than evil little beasties!   :lolb:
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 30, 2018, 12:38:42 AM
Speaking of the Stanley...If I have a dream...it would be a 4 cylinder VW air-cooled engine for a 1965 or earlier Beetle.
If anyone knows plans for such a thing...

I miss my 65 Beetle. 6V system. Had to put in a 12V converter to get an 8-track to work. The car's horn wouldn't work unless I was doing 20mph or higher.
Even then, the 8-track wouldn't change tracks. I had to drill a hole, wire a pencil to the solenoid, and press it when I heard a thunk when it tried to change tracks.

The back seat was small...but service-able  ;D

I went the back way through the army base and would have to speed up down a hill to skip over a small river to see my girlfriend.

I like to think I was more stupid then than now.

P.S. MPs are not your friend.

P.P.S I'm still kinda stupid.  :lolb:
8-track?! Wow, he IS old...

Love how the horn wouldn't work at low speeds. Guess if you were going slow the pedestrians should see you coming and get out of the way.

Given how many of them were made for so many decades, seems like someone should have printed up plans for one.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 30, 2018, 12:48:51 AM
8 track was still state of the art when I was in high school. I can relate Zee. Fun times!!

Bill
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 30, 2018, 01:12:20 AM
8 track was still state of the art when I was in high school. I can relate Zee. Fun times!!

Well gee Bill. We're the same age. For 13 more days.

I was very much into WWI and bi-planes. The horn would just do a bip-bip-bip.
With a bug in the appropriate position on the windshield...I would use it as a sight and go bip-bip-bipping shooting cars on the highway.
Such a kid.

I only did that when I was alone. I was stupid...but not that stupid.

P.S. I actually thought you were much younger than I.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 30, 2018, 01:19:47 AM
It must be those Dick Clark genes Zee  :lolb:

Bill (oh and the count is 32 days now, but I'm still not counting)
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 30, 2018, 01:49:06 AM
Bill (oh and the count is 32 days now, but I'm still not counting)

Liar.  ;D

I got to counting the number of lunches, the number of stop lights, the number of trips, the number of times I wore a certain pair of pants or shoes...

Yeah...I was ready.

The question now is...what am I counting?  :thinking:
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 30, 2018, 01:52:07 AM
Bill (oh and the count is 32 days now, but I'm still not counting)

Liar.  ;D

I got to counting the number of lunches, the number of stop lights, the number of trips, the number of times I wore a certain pair of pants or shoes...

Yeah...I was ready.

The question now is...what am I counting?  :thinking:
The number of parts till that engine spins on air!
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 30, 2018, 05:48:56 PM
Finished the eccentric hubs.

1st pic shows the part getting centered in the 4-jaw. The indicator has a flat tip on it.
2nd pic shows the groove within which the end of the connecting rod sits after going through the eccentric (yet to be made).
3rd pic shows the part offset by 0.100 (or thereabouts).
4th pic shows the part drilled and reamed for the crankshaft.
5th pic shows the hole for the set screw being found.
6th pic shows the set screw hole drilled and tapped.
7th pic shows the eccentric hubs done.

Ignore that shameful piece of metal to the left. I drove the carriage in the wrong direction. Does not belong on the 'wall of learning'.

Belongs on the 'wall of weren't you listening last time!?'  :slap:
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 30, 2018, 05:59:14 PM
You made fast work of those three, er two pieces Zee. Not much left now. Should be running by the weekend if all goes well :)

Bill
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 30, 2018, 06:16:37 PM
You made fast work of those three, er two pieces Zee. Not much left now. Should be running by the weekend if all goes well :)

Main things left include the eccentrics, drilling/tapping the mounting holes in the cylinder, a bit of sanding to knock down those dimples I made, drill/tap the holes in the crossheads for the piston rods, and I may take another run at the flywheel to make the dome a bit more symmetrical. Oh...need to make three more pipe nipples.

By these weekend I should have it assembled unless I've made a major boo-boo keeping things squared up.

Running is another story.  :paranoia:
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on April 30, 2018, 07:10:44 PM
Re: "3rd pic shows the part offset by 0.100 (or thereabouts)"

Getting an accurately spaced offset on an eccentric in situ on the 4jaw can be a bit awkward.  I have a bit easier way to do it.  Prior to mounting in the 4jaw, center the workpiece on the mill, then move the mill table 0.1" (or whatever is required) and drill a shallow center hole.  Then stick the piece in the 4jaw and put the conical tip of an edge finder held in the tailstock chuck in the center hole.  Adjust the 4jaw until the edge finder shows no runuout and you're done.

A pump center and the DI can be used in lieu of the edge finder if desired.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 30, 2018, 07:39:29 PM
Moving right along!    :popcorn:
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: bent on April 30, 2018, 09:09:30 PM
Nice tip, mklotz.

Zee, it's getting close to vroom time!  Keep it up!  :)
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 01, 2018, 01:04:01 AM
Thanks guys.

I need a little  :help: here.
I need to do a 45 degree chamfer on the eccentrics. I cannot figure out how to set the cutter to achieve that.
It seems to me that I need to rotate the tool post itself, not just the compound.
In rotating the compound only, I can't seem to figure out how to set a cutter to get the path needed. I typically run out of Y travel.

But that nut on top of the tool post doesn't seem to want to let go.
It should...shouldn't it?
If you look closely...you'll see a gap just below the nut in the picture. There's another one on the other side.
Is that significant for loosening this up?

Is it just a matter of not giving enough oomph?

For the eagle eyed...pay no attention to that red thing. It's a 3D printed spider and not working very well.

Can you believe it? This is the last part I need to machine.  ;D

I had a pretty good scare earlier this evening. It looked like the piston rod wasn't on the same line as the crosshead.
Whew...I think it's okay. But if it's not...then this project is toast. Or rather...a door stop.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on May 01, 2018, 01:09:44 AM
Don't know how your toolpost attaches, but alternative is to just file the bevel while it is spinning. Carefully. Unless the chamfer is a critical dimension.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 01, 2018, 01:09:51 AM
That nut should free up the toolpost to swivel Zee unless there is a spanner that fits those slots you mentioned. Have you moved it since you bought the machine? No more chamfer than you need on those rings, you can probably just plunge in once you get the cutter set to 45 degrees. It won't take much at all and is mainly cosmetic.

Bill
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 01, 2018, 01:13:10 AM
Thanks.

@Chris...I was thinking about filing. Both sides have to be beveled and I worry whether my hand skills can match them.

@Bill. I haven't touched the tool post itself since I got the machine. Obviously there's a way to remove it but I don't know enough to know whether it's just the nut (and it's really tight for some reason) or if I need to do something in addition to the nut to get it loose.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on May 01, 2018, 01:16:06 AM
Did they make the nut a left hand thread by chance?


Or is the toolpost bolted from underneath the cross slide?


I know you are a software engineer, but there should be an instruction book?   :shrug:
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 01, 2018, 01:23:23 AM
Did they make the nut a left hand thread by chance?


Or is the toolpost bolted from underneath the cross slide?


I know you are a software engineer, but there should be an instruction book?   :shrug:

Hm...instruction book. Didn't come with but I hadn't looked on the internet. Lemme find the model number.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 01, 2018, 01:30:44 AM
I can't imagine having to bolt it from the underside. If you can't find any info on the internet, give them a call and ask them. My bet is on an overly tightened nut, but best to find out before messing something up for sure. curious as to what the answer will be so please let us know.

Bill
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 01, 2018, 01:59:58 AM
I got it off. Turns out it was just really really tight.

The odd thing is...searching around the net...I could not find instructions for installing or removing this particular model.
The main difference being that 'ring' below the nut with the two gaps. I didn't see anything similar.

But oh well...I should be okay to continue.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 01, 2018, 02:05:39 AM
Great,  now you know  :D Thanks for the update.

Bill
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 01, 2018, 02:20:50 AM
And so with the help of a great educator and a great elf...I got a chamfer.

 :whoohoo: Getting there!
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on May 01, 2018, 02:50:49 AM
YeeHah!


 :cartwheel:
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 01, 2018, 12:16:14 PM
So all the parts are done now....great!!!  Just the touch up stuff and assembly to go and you will have a fine runner I am sure, and it hasn't even been a month yet  :o. I am going to need to up my game  :ROFL:

Bill
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 01, 2018, 01:22:12 PM
So all the parts are done now....great!!!

Not so fast my friend.  ;D

I needed to finish the eccentrics.

1st pic shows boring.
2nd pic shows ensuring the eccentric hub fits.
3rd pic shows the eccentrics done. Oops.  :embarassed: Not so fast my self. I still need to drill/tap the hole for the eccentric rod.

I also need to make the pistons again. The rings just don't fit well enough.  ::)
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on May 01, 2018, 01:53:15 PM
Nice job on the eccentric followers. On that model the rods go through into the slot in the eccentric cams, right?

 :popcorn:
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 01, 2018, 03:12:09 PM
Nice job on the eccentric followers. On that model the rods go through into the slot in the eccentric cams, right?

Yep. But only if I remember to drill/tap the holes.  ;D
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 01, 2018, 04:08:04 PM
Ready for assembly. Kinda sorta.

Attached is a pic of all the parts.

I haven't done the gaskets and probably won't. I don't have the proper tools to punch holes. I made a run at the material that was in the kit but it was clear I would make it worthless.

Some tubing has to be soldered between the pipe elbow and pipe 'T'. I expect I'll soft solder it.

Also need to figure out how to bend the eccentric rods.

Not too bad so far. Flubbed an eccentric hub, flubbed a valve, had to redo the pistons, busted a drill bit, and busted a center bit. One small bleeder on a knuckle. (Reamer got me when I reached in.)

Oh right. And one crapped up spindle stop. Er...make that two.  :embarassed:
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Jo on May 01, 2018, 04:23:31 PM
 :o Less than three weeks from the start and he nearly has the engine finished  :pinkelephant:

Jo
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Gas_mantle on May 01, 2018, 04:29:24 PM
Looking forward to seeing it running Carl  :ThumbsUp:

I'd seriously think about making some gaskets they should significantly improve the performance even if you only run on air. Before I got a set of hole punches I just improvised using scribers, centre punches, scissors etc to make the holes. It's not ideal but can been done without much thought or effort  :)

It's worth investing in a set of hole punches, I bought some like these :-

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12PC-PRECISION-HOLLOW-PUNCH-SET-3mm-19mm-LEATHER-PLASTIC-GASKET-HOLE-CUTTER/263355847973?epid=2255269250&hash=item3d513b5525:g:xP0AAOSwrhhaIQi3

They are cheap but do the job  :)

Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 01, 2018, 04:43:16 PM
Thanks Peter. The punches are what I need.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 01, 2018, 05:04:46 PM
A fine collection of parts Zee. Don't scrimp on the gaskets. They don't have to be perfect but they WILL help. Draw them up in CAD and cut them out or glue them to thicker stock if needed and then cut them out. Its worth the little bit of extra time in the long run.

Bill
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 01, 2018, 05:59:43 PM
I can't fight both Peter and Bill.  ;D

I made them from the material provided in the kit. They look like crap but are still whole.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on May 01, 2018, 06:42:08 PM
A liquid gasket does not require any punching of holes and you also don't need to make allowance for it's thickness during construction. When I do want a gasket that is what I use but often the metal to metal is good enough for air running and more.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 01, 2018, 07:06:05 PM
A liquid gasket does not require any punching of holes and you also don't need to make allowance for it's thickness during construction. When I do want a gasket that is what I use but often the metal to metal is good enough for air running and more.

That's kind of what I was thinking. I was surprised how well the outboard head covers mated when I tightened down the screws. But we'll see how the inboard head covers do.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on May 01, 2018, 07:15:29 PM
Great family shot  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:. I’m betting  this is probably going to be the best retirement gift you’ve recieved so far: shop time and a runner. I’ve thought several times about buying one of those lazer printers or whatever they are; the big time scrapbookers use them. I usually use the: “grease the gasket material, stick it to the surface, and lightly tap with hammer to mark the “features” . And then again: plus 1 on what Jason said. At these pressures and temps, a fine smear of quality silly con carne (silicon sealant) will do . And don’t worry, a lot of the stuff that’s been supplied in my kits looked like crap  :Lol:. Gotta go: three salami with blistered mozzarella sub, side of sautéed “baby” button mushrooms, and a Greek salad: oh yeah, my version of your hoppie. Give T that country boy wink 😉, and y’all come see us now you hear.

Cletus
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 01, 2018, 08:45:56 PM
We've got trouble. Right here in zeepster's cribby.

Well not really. Nothing out of the ordinary. And there is one or two 'huzzahs' I let out.

Everything is pretty tight and not unexpected.

The biggest issue is the left cylinder piston won't budge. I'll break it down later and try to figure it out. My first suspicion is the packing nut. I'd forgotten to install it on the right piston and that one moves (with some coaxing). It's also possible the cross head is not square (same level) as the piston. Getting the cylinder, piston, and cross head on the same plane was my biggest fear but the right cylinder seems fine.

I need to re-thread the eccentric rods. The nuts go on part way and then bind up.

The spacers for the crosshead caps are too low or the crosshead itself is too thick. (The thickness may be the issue with the left piston.)

The crankshaft assembly spins smoothly and the connecting rods line up nicely with the crossheads.

Spinning by hand, the flyhwheel shows a slight wobble in the middle of the dome but the rims look pretty good. Certainly could be better but I'm happy.

Overall I feel things went way better than I had expected.

One thing I'm wondering about is how to run in the engine. The only thought I have is to get some kind of belt, put it on the flywheel, and drive the belt with something.
Not sure it's needed but I suspect the engine will have a tough time going until things are worn in.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: AOG on May 01, 2018, 08:57:49 PM
Zee, Check the torque on the screws holding they cylinder onto the frame. If they are not evenly torqued the cylinder will cant and lock up the piston. It happened on my steam powered iPhone charger and I chased it for days before I figured out the problem.

Tony
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 01, 2018, 08:59:16 PM
Zee, Check the torque on the screws holding they cylinder onto the frame. If they are not evenly torqued the cylinder will cant and lock up the piston. It happened on my steam powered iPhone charger and I chased it for days before I figured out the problem.

Ah! Thanks Tony. I'd forgotten but I did see that the cylinder wasn't fitting right. I'll check that first.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on May 01, 2018, 08:59:56 PM
All typical issues. One of those times when you loosen screws till things move, tighten them one at a time and figure out where the tight spots are - something too high/low/thin/thick, or just out of line. Bit of filing on spacers, or adding a shim can help. Sometimes drilling a clearance hole out a size to give a cap room to shift with the piston helps, let the piston align the lower end cap then tighten the screws. Thats a common culprit, the lower cap not quite concentric, or the piston not quite concentric on the rod, or both. One of those learning things, where machining as much as possible in a setup pays off at this stage. Dont get frustrated, it will come together and you will learn a lot!
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 01, 2018, 09:21:23 PM
Dont get frustrated, it will come together and you will learn a lot!

No frustration yet. That's for tomorrow.  ;D

Nothing unexpected...except that it's gone far better so far than past models.  :pinkelephant:
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on May 01, 2018, 09:28:49 PM
If it were me, I wouldn't try to run it in until it turns over smoothly, if a bit stiffly, by hand.

One possible way to power it for run-in would be a rubber wheel driven by an electric drill and held against the flywheel.  Those expandable rubber cylinders used to hold sanding drums spring to mind, sans sand paper of course.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 01, 2018, 09:59:27 PM
If it were me, I wouldn't try to run it in until it turns over smoothly, if a bit stiffly, by hand.

One possible way to power it for run-in would be a rubber wheel driven by an electric drill and held against the flywheel.  Those expandable rubber cylinders used to hold sanding drums spring to mind, sans sand paper of course.

Rubber wheel...excellent idea. And yes...I want it to run as smoothly as possible before I 'force' it.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 01, 2018, 10:06:47 PM
The question is...do I start a family war (mother-in-law) or not  :thinking:

I've been posting my progress on facebook as well.

Got a response..."will it be useful or just fascinating?".  :cussing: I get the same question from my mom.  :cussing: :cussing:

So I said...something to the effect of...

"Fascinating IS useful. It can generate interest in others to learn about doing things with your hands, math (there's quite a bit), history (industrial revolution), art (there's a lot of creativity) much like things in a museum (whether models or not) that no longer do 'real' work. It takes you down many avenues of learning and interests."

I didn't say "what the hell do you mean 'just'"  :cussing: :cussing:

I must have patience. She may simply have been asking if I had plans for it to do something like run a garden hydration system or stir kombucha.

Nah. She just didn't think further about what 'useful' means.

 :lolb:
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Craig DeShong on May 01, 2018, 11:15:42 PM
Carl- looks like you’re getting there.  There are usually a few last minute “issues” in a build, after you’ve build a few engines, there are less problems, but there always appears to be a few, at least in my experience.

Your comments about your MIL aren’t exclusive to her.  I often go to a show with my models and someone will ask, “What was it used for?”  I explain its model of a full sized engine and they might say, “oh- it was a salesman sample to show a potential customer?”.  “No, I’ll say”, I built it”.  “So what do you use it for?” is their response.  “Nothing”, I say. “I just built it for fun”.  They look at me in a very weird way and walk off. 

Some people just can’t grasp the concept that you would spend all that time building something without needing it to do something for you when it’s complete.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on May 01, 2018, 11:34:30 PM
Tell them its to double the power of a Prius....  :Lol:
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 01, 2018, 11:46:42 PM
Quite frankly...I don't see it much different from certain forms of art.
Paintings don't 'do' anything. You can only look at them, enjoy them, and marvel at the skill and art of the creator.

Hey! We're all artists. No?

Absolutely.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on May 01, 2018, 11:49:44 PM
Amongst us old Harley riders there is a saying: “ if you have to ask, you wouldn’t understand “. Even the biker elves agree

Cletus
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on May 02, 2018, 01:06:18 AM
The question is...do I start a family war (mother-in-law) or not  :thinking:

I've been posting my progress on facebook as well.

Got a response..."will it be useful or just fascinating?".  :cussing: I get the same question from my mom.  :cussing: :cussing:

So I said...something to the effect of...

"Fascinating IS useful. It can generate interest in others to learn about doing things with your hands, math (there's quite a bit), history (industrial revolution), art (there's a lot of creativity) much like things in a museum (whether models or not) that no longer do 'real' work. It takes you down many avenues of learning and interests."

I didn't say "what the hell do you mean 'just'"  :cussing: :cussing:

I must have patience. She may simply have been asking if I had plans for it to do something like run a garden hydration system or stir kombucha.

Nah. She just didn't think further about what 'useful' means.

 :lolb:

To quote a true master, Bill Robertson "Why miniatures? You either get it, or you don't"
If if you don't know who Bill Robertson is you need to watch this, 2dKohUA_xQQ
The engine is looking great Zee! I'm sure that after you take the time to carefully locate the tight areas and properly fix them, she will tick over like a watch.

Looking forward to the video.
Dave
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 02, 2018, 01:29:58 AM
@Dave...yes!...I've seen that before. Marvelous.

People like that (as well as several on this forum) are inspirations.

I put off a lot until I retired. Possibly a mistake. But I'm still striving to become a 'master' at something.
The bigger problem for me has been finding that one thing that becomes such a passion...that you can't help but get really good at it.

I sometimes think...where would my skills and expertise be if I hadn't dropped certain hobbies when I was younger?
Or more importantly...not pursued certain interests.

(I would blame hormones  ;D but that's a cop out.)

Ah well. It is what it is and I'm happy content where I am.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on May 02, 2018, 01:41:13 AM
Well said Zee, my take on it, is that you need to do what makes you happy. In my case, if a project goes on for many years well so be it, I'm doing what makes me happy.

Dave
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 02, 2018, 01:49:44 AM
Well said Zee, my take on it, is that you need to do what makes you happy. In my case, if a project goes on for many years well so be it, I'm doing what makes me happy.

Thanks Dave.

In rereading my post I realized the danger I've posed. If one is content...there may be less drive to become more.
I don't mean to imply that. The drive is there...it just won't be at the expense of enjoying where I am.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 02, 2018, 11:42:00 PM
Sweet and Sour.

Sweet...

I got the right cylinder running.  :pinkelephant: I was surprised it ran as soon as I applied air and flicked the flywheel.
I haven't adjusted anything yet.
The left cylinder is more problematic. Pretty tight.
I believe I've traced it down to the cross head being slightly higher than the center line of the piston rod.
The hole the piston rod goes into looks right.
My suspicion is my mill is still not trammed properly and the slides for that cross head are too high.
Shaving the cross head down has improved things but I'm not there yet.

Sour...

I tried attaching the video but it doesn't take. No doubt it's a size problem.
Is the only way to show a video through youtube or a host site?
I'm no longer enthused by a host site but I may try 'youtube'. Seems I have an account there.  :thinking:
Or does anyone have a suggestion for a photo site (BESIDES photobucket! I will never go back there.)

Overall, things have worked better than expected.  :whoohoo: No 'oh crap' moments yet...but I'm always prepared.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on May 02, 2018, 11:47:00 PM
Good news on the one side!

I think Youtube is the best bet - upload it there, set it to public or unlisted (not private) and use the 'share' link to post it here.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 02, 2018, 11:52:35 PM
Wish I'd seen your post. Why not private?

mCtm0tqHspg
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Gas_mantle on May 02, 2018, 11:56:52 PM
Hi Carl I'd like to see your engine running but it says the video is unavailable ?

Have you set it to private view only ?  :(
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 02, 2018, 11:58:26 PM
Hi Carl I'd like to see your engine running but it says the video is unavailable ?

Have you set it to private view only ?  :(

I did. I didn't see Chris' post until after. Odd though. I logged out and could still see it. (Odd or suspicious?).

I'll try again.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on May 03, 2018, 12:01:11 AM
Hi Carl I'd like to see your engine running but it says the video is unavailable ?

Have you set it to private view only ?  :(

I did. I didn't see Chris' post until after. Odd though. I logged out and could still see it. (Odd or suspicious?).

I'll try again.
If its private, only you can see it. Privately.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 03, 2018, 12:03:12 AM
Hi Carl I'd like to see your engine running but it says the video is unavailable ?

Have you set it to private view only ?  :(

I did. I didn't see Chris' post until after. Odd though. I logged out and could still see it. (Odd or suspicious?).

I'll try again.
If its private, only you can see it. Privately.

Yeah but what bothers me...I logged off. How do they know. No matter.

See if it works now. I changed the settings to unlisted.
If that doesn't work I'll try posting again.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on May 03, 2018, 12:04:40 AM
Hi Carl I'd like to see your engine running but it says the video is unavailable ?

Have you set it to private view only ?  :(

I did. I didn't see Chris' post until after. Odd though. I logged out and could still see it. (Odd or suspicious?).

I'll try again.
If its private, only you can see it. Privately.

Yeah but what bothers me...I logged off. How do they know. No matter.

See if it works now. I changed the settings to unlisted.
If that doesn't work I'll try posting again.
You are logged off, but still have my favorite topic - Cookies!

Working fine now!
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 03, 2018, 12:17:07 AM
They recognize your ISP Zee even after you log off so they know its still you ...scary huh??  That one side is running great. Now just get the other to match and you're all set. Looks great though!!

Bill
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 03, 2018, 12:29:43 AM
Thanks Bill.

And thanks Chris for letting me know about the settings.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 03, 2018, 01:27:05 AM
Zee, when  you say the slides may be too high....what are we talking about here, .001" (which could still cause some binding) or something more...like .005" or more? If you lower the slides too much the hole the piston rod fits into may become out of line then. Just thinking out loud. Fixing one issue may cause another.

Bill
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 03, 2018, 01:33:02 AM
Zee, when  you say the slides may be too high....what are we talking about here, .001" (which could still cause some binding) or something more...like .005" or more? If you lower the slides too much the hole the piston rod fits into may become out of line then. Just thinking out loud. Fixing one issue may cause another.

Quite so Bill. I'm taking it very slow. It keeps getting better but at some point I may turn a corner and find I've screwed something else up.
The cross head itself can be easily remade.
Redoing any parts of the cylinder is more problematic as they are cast. Although I could probably get away with redoing the head cover as it doesn't show much.

I noticed that if I tighten the bottom bolt and slightly loosen the top bolts (of the cylinder), it runs better. But that may be a symptom of the same thing.
I would be surprised if things are canted. Everything was done at the same time.

I'll see if I can figure out how to measure things a bit better. It could be the slides have to drop but I'm not ooking forward to that.
Putting a part (in this case, the base) back in it's original setup has nearly always met with disaster for me.

Still optimistic.  :ThumbsUp:

[EDIT] Just to be clear...it's the cross head I'm modifying. Not the slides.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 03, 2018, 01:38:33 AM
It seems the crosshead would be the easiest part to remake. I kind of doubt the cant theory too given how you machined things. If you shave off a small amount from the underside of the crosshead, it would do the same thing as lowering the slide a bit. If that frees things up then great. If t results in the crosshead being a bit loose in the slides you can reduce the height of the spacers to tighten things back up. That seems the easiest and safest route to me unless you find something else obviously out of whack :)

Bill
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 03, 2018, 01:44:47 AM
It seems the crosshead would be the easiest part to remake. I kind of doubt the cant theory too given how you machined things. If you shave off a small amount from the underside of the crosshead, it would do the same thing as lowering the slide a bit. If that frees things up then great. If t results in the crosshead being a bit loose in the slides you can reduce the height of the spacers to tighten things back up. That seems the easiest and safest route to me unless you find something else obviously out of whack :)

That's exactly the road I'm travelling. I'm very glad it's not an unusual road. Thanks Bill.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Kim on May 03, 2018, 07:08:55 AM
Hi Carl I'd like to see your engine running but it says the video is unavailable ?

Have you set it to private view only ?  :(

I did. I didn't see Chris' post until after. Odd though. I logged out and could still see it. (Odd or suspicious?).

I'll try again.
If its private, only you can see it. Privately.

Yeah but what bothers me...I logged off. How do they know. No matter.

See if it works now. I changed the settings to unlisted.
If that doesn't work I'll try posting again.
You are logged off, but still have my favorite topic - Cookies!

Working fine now!

Actually, I think that you saw it because it was cashed by your browser.  Even though you'd logged off, unless you clear your browser cache, it will show up.

You're engine is looking great, Zee!
Kim
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on May 03, 2018, 07:47:34 AM
Hi Zee,
 Keep at you will win!

Before you launch into major head scratching on setups, have you tried flipping the crosshead over? Or as the other cylinder works how about using the cross head from that cylinder? MAKE SURE YOU MARK IT THE RIGHT WAY UP FIRST! Try the suspect one in the running cylinder.
Now if you have tried this.......blame the elves!

Great work, looking forward to seeing it running!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 03, 2018, 11:56:12 AM
Thanks Kim.
Thanks Kerrin.

have you tried flipping the crosshead over? Or as the other cylinder works how about using the cross head from that cylinder? MAKE SURE YOU MARK IT THE RIGHT WAY UP FIRST! Try the suspect one in the running cylinder.

That forces me to come clean (although I think I'd mentioned this earlier)...

Unfortunately, the cylinders are not perfectly placed between the two slides. That is, the piston rod going into the cross head is slightly off center.
In addition, the gap between slides differs slightly from one set to the other.

In short, the cross heads can only go one way and are custom to their slides (cylinders).
The differences are slight but significant enough.

As people said, and as I knew...I'd learn a lot on this.

Amongst other things, the biggest take away is to measure, measure, measure. The difference in spacing for the slides should have easily been caught if I'd double-checked more while milling.

Another big take away (and one I keep ignoring) is when I hear myself think "that seems odd"...investigate!
Regarding the slides again, it bothered me that the distance between slides was .75" and the raw material was .75" wide. It seemed odd that I wouldn't have to mill the sides of the cross head. I had gone by what I'd seen a website to cut them but had I rotated the part 90 degrees I would have gotten the same two parts but would have milled all 4 sides instead of just two.  Having said that though, the cross head was spec'd to be .187" and the raw material was 3/16". So the faces would simply get a lick of sandpaper.

Two other areas I'm working on improving include accounting for backlash and locking gibs down.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: AOG on May 03, 2018, 12:38:56 PM
The quickest way to find out if the crosshead is tall or the cylinder is cocked is to pull off the slides and crosshead. Measure the height of the piston rod relative to the slide base at both ends of the travel. If it’s the same height at both ends trim the crosshead. If not you will have to shim the cylinder.  That assumes that the cylinder cover is evenly torqued. There is enough squish in the gasket material for uneven torque on the cover to throw off the alignment at the end of travel. I think part of it down to the uneven spacing of the three holes. Just by the nature of the design, there is more force applied at the top of the cylinder head than on the bottom.

My 2 cents

Tony
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: sco on May 03, 2018, 12:40:59 PM
Zee,

Not convinced on the need for a DRO on the lathe but on the mill they absolutely transform the ease of machining parts - no more mental arithmetic or worry about backlash - I couldn't go back to a mill without one fitted now.

Simon.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Jo on May 03, 2018, 01:13:03 PM
Not convinced on the need for a DRO on the lathe but on the mill they absolutely transform the ease of machining parts - no more mental arithmetic or worry about backlash - I couldn't go back to a mill without one fitted now.

There are much higher priorities for the workshop than a DRO on the lathe.... but when you are struggling to find another goodie to buy for your favourite workshop they are rather nice  :embarassed:

Jo
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 03, 2018, 02:33:05 PM
Thanks Tony. One of the tests I had made was to remove the gasket. So far things point to the cross head but I'll let everyone know what I find.

Thanks Simon and Jo. I'm not sure why the DRO on the lathe is being discussed unless this came from a much earlier post. I agree that (for me anyway) a DRO is not a 'need' for the lathe. I was most interested in the tail stock but I'm thinking it won't solve my troubles. I've found that when drilling, the tail stock tends to push back (slips) a bit until its stop fully engages. I don't know if this is unusual or not and a tail stock DRO won't fix that. I've taken to using tape on drill bits to monitor depth but this doesn't work all that well. Chips tend to push the tape. As for the markings on the tail stock quill...slippage makes that somewhat useless and I have trouble reading the marks anyway.

Any thoughts on preventing the tail stock slip? If I can guarantee it doesn't move then I'd go for a DRO.

Going back to the mill DRO...am I correct in believing I don't need to worry about backlash?

As a side note, the mill has a built-in DRO for the quill. Very hard to read though. I have to stoop and it's rather dim (but that may be a weak battery).
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: sco on May 03, 2018, 02:36:18 PM
The DRO measures the table actual movement - so you can completely forget about backlash.  You just wind the wheels and watch the digits - you'll never look at the dials again!

Simon.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on May 03, 2018, 02:51:59 PM
Do your tailstock up tighter, that will stop it slipping ;) make sure there is no dirt under the tailstock or a bit of paint. Also the "plate" that runs below the bed may have a burr. Also the nut under the plate may want tightening as you could be running out of movement on the levers cam

Back to the cross head issue , when making an engine I often turn a small point onto the piston rod and this can be used to mark the correct location for the hole in the crosshead
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 03, 2018, 04:06:17 PM
Thanks Simon. Yes...the DROs are a joy.

Do your tailstock up tighter, that will stop it slipping ;) make sure there is no dirt under the tailstock or a bit of paint. Also the "plate" that runs below the bed may have a burr. Also the nut under the plate may want tightening as you could be running out of movement on the levers cam
Back to the cross head issue , when making an engine I often turn a small point onto the piston rod and this can be used to mark the correct location for the hole in the crosshead

Thanks Jason. I'll take a look at the tail stock. Sounds like it shouldn't be slipping at all. Nice tip on the piston rod. (No pun intended.)
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Kim on May 03, 2018, 04:52:37 PM
Just a note on the DRO topic (which I know you're not covering here :)).  I have a DRO on my lathe and I wouldn't be without it, regardless of what others say.  Sure, there are other things that might be higher priority.  But for me, a DRO is a plus.  Really makes it more fun to use.  And isn't that what its all about?

I agree with Jason, your tail stock shouldn't move when tightened down.  I find that over time, the nut on the bottom of the clamping plate will loosen and I have to tighten it up to get a good lock with the cam, just as Jason said.  (Guess I could have just said +1 for what Jason said!)

Kim
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on May 03, 2018, 05:31:49 PM
First side is looking good. Not that I’m really qualified, but, put on the optic visor and get eyeballs to eyeball with the other side and watch it with the patience of a world class chess player as you slowly turn it over by hand. With enough patience, I’d bet an RC Cola and a Moon Pie that you will see where it’s actually binding. Remember Caddy Shack?  Be the engine  8) :facepalm:

Cletus
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on May 03, 2018, 05:58:10 PM
First side is looking good. Not that I’m really qualified, but, put on the optic visor and get eyeballs to eyeball with the other side and watch it with the patience of a world class chess player as you slowly turn it over by hand. With enough patience, I’d bet an RC Cola and a Moon Pie that you will see where it’s actually binding. Remember Caddy Shack?  Be the engine  8) :facepalm:

Cletus
Good tip. Sometimes you can see the burnish marks where it sticks.
See the crosshead, be the crosshead...
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on May 03, 2018, 06:23:28 PM

  I find that over time, the nut on the bottom of the clamping plate will loosen and I have to tighten it up to get a good lock with the cam

When I first bought my lathe, I had the same problem.  I added a lock nut to the bolt and since then haven't had a problem.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on May 03, 2018, 07:56:17 PM
Now onto the tail stock issue: I’m beginning to sound like Mr. Pete  :lolb:. As mentioned by previous posters; nip up the nut under the lathe bed. My Grizzly lathe has to be farted with after a few passes to make it lock up. On the other hand; the one on the old ‘44 Monarch 10EE, locks up with a knats breath  :shrug: :lolb:

Cletus
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 03, 2018, 11:39:50 PM
Got the other cylinder running. But there's problems.

kyx72Q5Vpbw
Takes a lot of pressure. Some of which is due to leaks at the set screws used for plugs. I haven't sealed them nor the pipe nipples.
Bigger problem turns out not to be the cross head but something not true between the piston rod, gland nut, and head cover.
A bit of cleaning and reaming helped a lot but I fear it would take remaking some cast parts to really get it right.
Doing anymore and it will be more leaky.

You can tell it's pretty tight when I turn off the air. The engine stops immediately.

I'll get it best I can but I won't go down the road of ordering replacement cast parts.

A big challenge will be soldering the tube between the pipe elbow and pipe T. Once that is done, disassembly/assembly is more difficult.
I'm going to soft solder it. I have a large soldering gun (not for electronics) and wonder if that will be enough.

I should feel pretty  :pinkelephant: but not quite. Still...I think my best work thus far so that's something.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on May 03, 2018, 11:47:47 PM
So, both sides are chooching, and although it reminds me of high school night of romance  :lolb:, Now you just gotta get her calmed down. It’s all in the “tuning and fettling” now  :popcorn: :ThumbsUp:.  Congratulations Zee.

Cletus
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Craig DeShong on May 04, 2018, 12:16:35 AM
It's running  :cheers:

Some more fine tuning and it can only run better.  Look at all you've learned.   No doubt your next project will go better.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 04, 2018, 12:57:36 AM
This is still progress Zee. Just keep running it in for a while with plenty of oil and it may surprise you.

Bill
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 04, 2018, 01:12:56 AM
Thanks Eric.
Thanks Craig. Next project 'always' goes better.  ;D
Thanks Bill.

I think, rather than soldering the tube in now, I'll rig up a manifold to drive both cylinders at the same time until I have it running better and adjusted.

As I mentioned, once the tube is soldered in place, you have to remove both cylinders if you're going to remove one.

Still feeling optimistic. And even if this is a 'bust' (in the sense that it's not nearly as good as I want), I'm pretty happy to have gotten here.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 04, 2018, 01:33:20 AM
This is what I'm thinking. That should make adjusting/setting easier.

[EDIT] Now I'm wondering where and why I got that. Might be one of those 'might be useful things' at the time.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on May 04, 2018, 02:23:20 AM
Looks like a gas jet manifold from science class. Hey Bill, your classroom missing one?!
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 04, 2018, 02:37:27 AM
Well it runs. Sorta kinda.

KQt8W6QFHtE
From my viewpoint...  :pinkelephant: :pinkelephant: :pinkelephant:

I don't know if I'll take this further. I'll think on it. Many improvements are needed and I think some involve getting replacement castings which I'm not willing to do.
I accomplished a number of goals. While I didn't get the model I wanted in terms of smoothness and low input power, I did learn a lot. A whole lot.
No doubt I'll keep playing with it though...tweaking this or that.

Even simple things like the crank bearings should have been slightly longer (or the connecting rods slightly thinner) so that the screw could be tightened up against the bearing.
Or improving my habits for measuring and double-checking. (And remembering to check for cutters before reaching in.  ::) )

I could learn more on this but I think I'll do better (in terms of learning and experience) by doing some bar stock engines before trying another casting kit.

I'm pretty happy.

Many many thanks to all of you watching and helping. That's a large part of the enjoyment I get out of this.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 04, 2018, 02:45:40 AM
Wow! I'd turned the compressor off a bit ago but it still had some pressure.

I just went over and applied air and the engine started right up. (Which means it ran with lower pressure than the video.)

I may not be that far off.

That was cool!

I'm sure you all do the same. Get it running and then keep going back to play with it.

Okay...now I'm really  :whoohoo: :whoohoo:

Wow. What a feeling.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on May 04, 2018, 02:57:06 AM
 :pinkelephant: :cartwheel:



Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: dparker on May 04, 2018, 03:56:14 AM
Zee:  I have been following your exploits for quite some time and always enjoy your posts.  This last engine looks very nice and it runs, almost on the first try, that is a great !  The problem you had in finding the binding might have been helped by taking a slow motion video of it running.  My Son and I have built several air engines and a slow motion video helped to find where the binding was very quickly on one of the air engines.  My engines can be viewed on YOU TUBE under the username "parkerdjte" if you are so inclined.  Thank You for the interesting posts and your shop is to be admired by us and enjoyed by you. 
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Kim on May 04, 2018, 06:53:23 AM
Hey Zee,
you should feel pretty pumped about your engine!  Both cylinders working, and it's looking really good!  it will only get better with some running in.

Love the videos too.  Great work Zee!
Kim
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on May 04, 2018, 07:06:46 AM
Zee, best thing now would be to let it run for an hour or two with plenty of oil. It can run in the background while you get started on the next engine ;)
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Roger B on May 04, 2018, 08:16:58 AM
Looks good to me  :praise2:  :praise2:  :wine1:
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on May 04, 2018, 01:18:31 PM
Nice engine Zee. Knowledge is cumulative. The more engines you build, the better you will get. Some of the machining steps that appeared to be almost impossible on your first build will become routine operations. Good job!!--Brian
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on May 04, 2018, 01:42:12 PM
Awoke this morning to the second video of the ol' #7 running. Zee, I think it's running very well. As a matter of fact, if you don't have it anchored down, it isn't showing any signs of trying to "walk around", and that's great. Now, the question everyone here loves to ask: what's next? :stickpoke:

Cletus
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on May 04, 2018, 01:44:15 PM
Awoke this morning to the second video of the ol' #7 running. Zee, I think it's running very well. As a matter of fact, if you don't have it anchored down, it isn't showing any signs of trying to "walk around", and that's great. Now, the question everyone here loves to ask: what's next? :stickpoke:

Cletus
Rhymes with zanly zeemer...
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on May 04, 2018, 02:01:05 PM
Lecker.  Ich hat es ganz gern.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 04, 2018, 03:01:34 PM
Thanks everyone! It's very much appreciated you followed along and provided so much help.  :ThumbsUp:

As for the next little project...that's a tough one.

I have the PMR boiler #1 kit but it hasn't grabbed me yet.
I think a lot about a popcorn engine (Julius's plans).
But I also think about a walking beam or marine engine.
Once in a while I think about an IC engine.

It may be a while before I start. I've got a couple of wild hairs that are bothering me and they don't involve machining.

But that popcorn engine...it includes a governor which I've not done.
And the boiler could run it.

 :thinking:
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: Gas_mantle on May 04, 2018, 04:25:49 PM
Great stuff Carl  :ThumbsUp:

I'm pleased you got it running, it's a very satisifying inner feeling when something you made comes to life  :)

I enjoyed your build log and hope you do another one, it's nice to see a relatively simple engine built on the forum. There must be 100's of silent members here who want to build something that is suitable for a novice and can take inspiration from something like this.

Well done  :)
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: bent on May 04, 2018, 09:57:56 PM
Try taking out the gland nut.  I had trouble getting the thread centered when I made one for the PMR #3, and it dragged on the piston rod.  If yours runs better with one or the other gland nut removed, next you need to figure out whether it's the gland nut (external) thread, or the cylinder head (internal) thread (or just leave the gland nut off, it won't leak that much without it).  I ended up remaking the gland nut which had previously been done with a die; the second go was done with single-point thread cutting.  Came out much more concentric (I also took more care boring out the piston rod hole).  Optionally, you could just bore out the hole in the nut to get it to run smoother.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 04, 2018, 10:26:59 PM
Thanks Peter. For the novice I would suggest something simpler. Certainly a single cylinder. A casting might be okay but it too would need to be pretty simple.

Thanks bent. I did try removing the gland nut but saw little difference. I'm pretty sure it's the head cover. I remember having had trouble with a center drill on one of the covers and when I look at that one... :thinking:. When I get the gumption up, I'm going to try remaking it. Although it's a cast part, only about 1/16" of the rim shows so I think some bar stock will do.

No doubt a lot of adjustment is needed as well. I get a lot of air out of one cylinder's exhaust but not so much out of the other. After twiddling with the eccentric, I got better exhaust. But I don't think the valves are in the right place.

On the plus side, what I thought was wobble in the flywheel turns out to be the crankshaft shifting a tad left and right. I should be able to adjust that with the cranks. The flywheel itself looks pretty true.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 05, 2018, 12:30:15 AM
Keep after it Zee till you are satisfied with it. There is as much to be learned from that as there is in machining the parts and ultimately more satisfaction as well.

Bill
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: gary.a.ayres on August 21, 2018, 12:01:32 AM
Hi Carl -

Have really enjoyed this build log, in terms of both the build itself and the discussion around it.

Particularly interesting to me as a complete novice. Despite not yet having built any engines at all, I impulse bought a PMR #6 kit a while back, but I am no way going anywhere near it until I have have made a few fabricated engines, starting with a simple single acting oscillator.

Congratulations to you on a successful build, even if the success was not absolute (it never is...).

 :cheers:

gary

Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 21, 2018, 12:17:12 AM
Congratulations to you on a successful build, even if the success was not absolute (it never is...).

Thanks Gary. As a stationary...it looks pretty good. But it's not a runner. However, I'm fairly pleased with the learnings I got out of it. I'm particularly pleased with the flywheel.

"it never is..." such a truism. I do things that my friends/relatives think are awesome...but being close to the work...I see the boo-boos.

When it comes to what we do...we are our worse critics. Not a bad thing.
Title: Re: PMR 7 Twin Cylinder Steam Engine
Post by: gary.a.ayres on August 21, 2018, 09:02:59 AM
Quote
When it comes to what we do...we are our worse critics. Not a bad thing.

Agree, as long as we don't make ourselves miserable by failing to notice the good bits - a trap which you clearly have not fallen into.

Quote
..it looks pretty good. But it's not a runner.

At my level of knowledge I must defer to you on that. It does run though  :)

Cheers,

gary