Model Engine Maker

Supporting => Vehicles & Models => Topic started by: crueby on October 13, 2017, 08:38:53 PM

Title: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 13, 2017, 08:38:53 PM
And on to the next big build!   :whoohoo:

The next project is plans then model for a Marion Model 91 steam shovel, of the type used on the Panama Canal and lots of other large excavations. There happens to be one of the last ones existing sitting in a field outside a quarry near where I live. It was used in the quarry starting in approximately 1906, then abandoned in the field in 1949. It was originally a railroad truck mounted machine, later on it was converted (using tracks made by Marion) to sit on 2 pairs of crawler tracks - front powered, rear steerable. The town acquired the land it sits on in the 1960s, and it later was added to the national landmark registry. Here are some photos of what it looks like now.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5368o0rzr/DSC_4856a.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/6uz7ixj2f/DSC_4954a.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/ik376vulj/DSC_4956a.jpg)

I have been working with the town historical society and others, and have gotten some photos and measurements from them, plus photos of the outside of my own, and a set of digital laser scans that were done about 10 years ago. Next month I should be able to get inside during a park service survey, and get more detailed internal photos and measurements. I've also gotten copies of two of the original Marion product catalogs which show tons of detail (as they brag about the features) of the internal parts, and also have downloaded a bunch of their patents from the early days, which are another gold mine of information about the internal workings.

I've started drawing the machine up in Fusion360 as a full-sized model, and after that is complete I'll decide what scale to build the model to, and come up with a scaled-down set of the plans. The full size plans will be the first and only (as far as I have been able to find out) set of measured drawings for a complete model 91 shovel. All I've been able to find are general arrangement layout drawings and old photos of them in action. Here are a couple of screen captures of the 3D model so far:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8a0s7ersn/Marion_91_v21.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/8zjkjs7rr/Marion_91_v21a.jpg)
As you can see, there are a pair of large outriggers at the front end - these take the place of the original jack stand supports from when it was rail-mounted. The outriggers are what the crawler track hubs attach to. They have a set of u-koints connecting back to the central drive hub (not modelled yet) to propel the machine. The rear tracks are a pair that sit close together under the original rear truck mount, and is steerable by a long worm gear which is driven by a fourth steam engine that was added as part of the crawler 'kit'.

The other steam engines are: one on the main boom to run the dipper boom in and out, one to swing the front booms side to side on the turntable, and one to drive both the main bucket hoist and also the axles to move the machine. Quite a mechansim!

Other changes that were made to the machine during its life: the folding rear deck that would hold coal for the boiler was converted to a permenant platform, and also the wooden sides were replaced with sheet steel.

So, for now, the research and 3D drawing will continue for a while, then I'll pick the scale and make up the plans for the model and start construction. I'll post updates as the 3D model progresses and as I get more research done.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: J.L. on October 13, 2017, 10:22:21 PM
Hi Chris,

What a wonderful undertaking! This will be a significant prototype model.
 :popcorn:

Cheers...John
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 13, 2017, 10:35:08 PM
Hi Chris,

What a wonderful undertaking! This will be a significant prototype model.
 :popcorn:

Cheers...John

Thanks John! 

What I really need is for you to build me one of your wonderful dioramas of a workshop at 12":1' scale so I could build a real steam shovel!!   :Lol:    I think I have a location set to display the Lombard, have no clue where to put the shovel when it is done, unless I can make it to the kind of scale that George builds.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on October 13, 2017, 11:03:06 PM
Hi Chris,

What a wonderful undertaking! This will be a significant prototype model.
 :popcorn:

Cheers...John

Thanks John! 

What I really need is for you to build me one of your wonderful dioramas of a workshop at 12":1' scale so I could build a real steam shovel!!   :Lol:    I think I have a location set to display the Lombard, have no clue where to put the shovel when it is done, unless I can make it to the kind of scale that George builds.

Well Chris........you could always put it to work digging a swimming pool in your backyard!  :naughty:

This is going to be another great project. I'm looking forward to following along.  :popcorn:  :popcorn:  :popcorn:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: b.lindsey on October 13, 2017, 11:06:52 PM
Yep, ready and waiting here too  :popcorn:

Bill
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: yogi on October 13, 2017, 11:43:48 PM
Another great project Chris! I'm looking forward to see the progress...  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on October 14, 2017, 04:08:22 AM
Oh oh! Having commented the  :popcorn:else where, now I have to split it up! Shouldn't be too long before I can plant up the field again!

This should be another fun build to follow!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 14, 2017, 04:18:56 AM
Should be a good long ride on this one, lots of frames and body works, 4 twin cylinder engines, 4 crawler tracks, plus the booms and bucket. And a turntable! Too bad there isn't a working one to play with along the way.


At least for this one the chains are a style I can buy by the yard!

Oh oh! Having commented the  :popcorn:else where, now I have to split it up! Shouldn't be too long before I can plant up the field again!

This should be another fun build to follow!

Cheers Kerrin
So just open side by side browser windows and munch popcorn while turning your head back and forth!!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on October 14, 2017, 08:21:43 AM
 :lolb: :lolb:

Now if I can just figure out how I've been doing that by accident on my iPad......then how to put it back I'm in!,

Think it might have to be a bowl for each hand!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Plani on October 14, 2017, 08:37:13 AM
Wow, what a project Chris!!
I' ll be along for the ride  :popcorn:  :popcorn: :popcorn:
That will be awesome.

Plani
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jo on October 14, 2017, 09:05:06 AM
Nice project  :naughty:

At least for this one the chains are a style I can buy by the yard!

I hope you still have the joys of machining up the tracks, we all appreciated how much you enjoy those  :LittleDevil: : they are just like shelling studs  :facepalm:

Jo
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 14, 2017, 01:34:13 PM
Nice project  :naughty:

At least for this one the chains are a style I can buy by the yard!

I hope you still have the joys of machining up the tracks, we all appreciated how much you enjoy those  :LittleDevil: : they are just like shelling studs  :facepalm:

Jo


Oh yes, the tracks will have to be machined up.   :insane:   these don't have the interlocking fingers on the outer plate, must have a joint on a inner T, can't tell from the pics I have now, but am getting a chance to inspect up close in a couple of weeks.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 14, 2017, 01:35:07 PM
Wow, what a project Chris!!
I' ll be along for the ride  :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
That will be awesome.

Plani
Hey, pass some of the popcorn this way!  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: PJPickard on October 14, 2017, 01:58:41 PM
Great project and another that has been on my list for years, looking forward to it!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: fumopuc on October 14, 2017, 08:21:20 PM
OK, ready to follow along.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 14, 2017, 11:55:08 PM
Few more additions to the main boom - corrected the bolts and center blocks, and added the step plates and the guy wires from the end of the boom to the top of the A-frame.  One interesting thing that Marion did was to have the booms actually made of oak, wrapped in steel plates. Their reason (according to their catalogs) was that the oak provided some spring back to the steel, preventing fractures under shock loads. Sort of like having softer steel on the back of a knife blade I guess. On the one in LeRoy, the large center block at the base of the main boom, which is not wrapped like the side beams are, is pretty rotted, hard to say what shape the ones inside the two side beams are like since they have 1" thick plates on all sides.

Anyway, here is the newer drawing:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/s8uff5e3r/Marion_91_v22.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: wagnmkr on October 15, 2017, 11:02:22 AM
Good to see the start of a new project Chris. Make it the same scale as the Lombard and you have the start of a small construction company. I'm watching this one with pleasure.

Tom
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 15, 2017, 02:06:52 PM
Good to see the start of a new project Chris. Make it the same scale as the Lombard and you have the start of a small construction company. I'm watching this one with pleasure.

Tom
Thanks Tom!  Think it will need to be a smaller scale than the Lombard or I won't be able to lift it! At 1":1' it would be huge! It has to fit through the shop door at minimum...  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: wagnmkr on October 15, 2017, 03:23:55 PM
How long is the cab?

Tom
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 15, 2017, 05:17:58 PM
How long is the cab?

Tom
The real machine? The cab is 50 feet long, 9' 9"  wide,  and 11 feet tall (not counting the tracks). The boom/shovel assembly makes it over half again as long. Quite a large machine.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: scc on October 15, 2017, 06:36:54 PM
Good to see the start of a new project Chris. Make it the same scale as the Lombard and you have the start of a small construction company. I'm watching this one with pleasure.

Tom
Thanks Tom!  Think it will need to be a smaller scale than the Lombard or I won't be able to lift it! At 1":1' it would be huge! It has to fit through the shop door at minimum...  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: scc on October 15, 2017, 06:38:47 PM
Sorry....pressed wrong button :facepalm2:        You could always cut away half the door post as I had to!!!             terry
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 15, 2017, 08:19:48 PM
Sorry....pressed wrong button :facepalm2:        You could always cut away half the door post as I had to!!!             terry

Whoops!

I can't remember how many times I re-measured the doors and windows when making large boat parts in my upstairs workshop!

For this one, the model shop is in the back room on the ground floor, and I'd have to cut the door post, and a slot in the side wall!!!   :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 15, 2017, 08:23:57 PM
More 3D modelling today, got the main boom itself done (the engine that sits on it  to move the dipper boom will be a seperate drawing later on).

(https://s5.postimg.cc/owe7mak1z/Marion_91_v23.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/vzm31wx7b/Marion_91_v23a.jpg)

Next up I think will be the sheaves that guide the chain that wraps around the turntable.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: rudydubya on October 15, 2017, 09:34:27 PM
Looks like a fantastic project Chris.  Looking forward to following along.

Regards,
Rudy
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: wagnmkr on October 15, 2017, 10:32:58 PM
How long is the cab?

Tom
The real machine? The cab is 50 feet long, 9' 9"  wide,  and 11 feet tall (not counting the tracks). The boom/shovel assembly makes it over half again as long. Quite a large machine.

I didn't realize that the real thing was that large. !/24 would still be a push to go through a doorway ... 1/48 perhaps?

Tom
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 15, 2017, 11:17:58 PM
How long is the cab?

Tom
The real machine? The cab is 50 feet long, 9' 9"  wide,  and 11 feet tall (not counting the tracks). The boom/shovel assembly makes it over half again as long. Quite a large machine.

I didn't realize that the real thing was that large. !/24 would still be a push to go through a doorway ... 1/48 perhaps?

Tom
Well, for the body alone, 1:12 would be 50" x ~10 x 11", which is fine for width, but the length is pretty big. Something in the range of 1:16 to 1:24 should be do-able, assuming the boom/turntable could come off easily - would need some removeable links in the chains maybe. I have not given the model scale too much thought, going to wait till it is all designed as a full-scale plan first (copies of which will go to the historical society, maybe be published as-is), then I'll look at overall sizes plus sizes of the engines to see what scale to reduce the model to. I hope I don't need to get down to the Tiny type sizes that George Britnell lives at!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 15, 2017, 11:28:36 PM
One more 3D update for the day - was going to quit and go back outside, but a storm front moved through this evening. Added the chain guide wheels for the turntable slewing chains, which come off a drum back in the engine compartment, one off the top, one off the bottom, and come forward through these guide wheels and around the rim of the turntable, ends held inside the boom at the front. Notice that one wheel is tilted up to aim at the top of the drum, and there is an angled guide channel behind it as well.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/4sz6nkp13/Marion_91_v25.jpg)

Doint things up in 3D is going to solve TONS of interference issues later on - the measurements I am interpreting from the laser scan and photos are only so precise, the 3D model lets me sight right down objects and paths to know when to move something over a half-inch or whatever.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jon Cameron on October 15, 2017, 11:30:38 PM
I'll be watching this build progress, looks like it'll turn into a good 'un.
 As for scale if you can get it to 1:19 or 1:24 scale then there are proprietry wagons that would make a for a good diorama at a show, if your into that sort of thing??? Would be good to load some wagons up with some sand  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 15, 2017, 11:33:49 PM
I'll be watching this build progress, looks like it'll turn into a good 'un.
 As for scale if you can get it to 1:19 or 1:24 scale then there are proprietry wagons that would make a for a good diorama at a show, if your into that sort of thing??? Would be good to load some wagons up with some sand  :popcorn:

Thats a good point! Have to see what railroad gondolas/etc are available in what scales, or maybe an early dump truck.

For this forum, it would be perfect for scooping more popcorn into the bowl!   :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jon Cameron on October 15, 2017, 11:46:16 PM
For American trains you'll be looking at 1:24, or G Scale. Though it would look equally as good alongside a 1:19 16mm scale trains.despite been an American scoop.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on October 16, 2017, 02:55:34 AM
The early drawings are coming along nicely Chris.

I got to thinking about the operation of this "bad boy" and was wondering if you happen to know how large of a crew it took to run it?

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: paul gough on October 16, 2017, 03:39:02 AM
Hi Chris, Looks to be an interesting project with the research etc. As to the scale question, I am presuming you are keeping true to steam operation(?), thus the question might not be the overall dimensioning but practical dimensioning of operating components and what your manufacturing capacity is. There are plenty of G1 railroad cranes of similar type,some scratch built, but I have not seen any steam operated jobs other than 5'' gauge or bigger. Maybe a similar general sizing that complements your Shay and Lombard would just about be big enough for steam operation?? Interested to hear your thoughts as to how far down in size you think is viable for an operable steamer. Regards Paul Gough.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Alan Haisley on October 16, 2017, 05:34:50 AM

This looks like it will be really fun to watch. I'm glad you have access to the 12" to 1' model to get measurements. Are you sure that the whole beast is there?


Alan
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 16, 2017, 11:24:48 AM
Hi Chris, Looks to be an interesting project with the research etc. As to the scale question, I am presuming you are keeping true to steam operation(?), thus the question might not be the overall dimensioning but practical dimensioning of operating components and what your manufacturing capacity is. There are plenty of G1 railroad cranes of similar type,some scratch built, but I have not seen any steam operated jobs other than 5'' gauge or bigger. Maybe a similar general sizing that complements your Shay and Lombard would just about be big enough for steam operation?? Interested to hear your thoughts as to how far down in size you think is viable for an operable steamer. Regards Paul Gough.
I definitely want to have the engines operable, so that will be a factor on scale chosen. Getting a boiler that small to generate enough steam for four twin engines may not be practical, may be set up just for compressed air if not.


Final choice on scale won't happen for a while yet!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 16, 2017, 11:29:16 AM

This looks like it will be really fun to watch. I'm glad you have access to the 12" to 1' model to get measurements. Are you sure that the whole beast is there?


Alan
All the machinery is there, though small brass fittings were stolen years ago. Repairs were made during its life, wood siding was changed to steel, sliding doors changed to hinged. The main chains were welded to the pulleys and the extra on the drums was removed when it was abandoned. The control levers are still there. Lots of rust and dirt has been added!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 16, 2017, 11:31:16 AM
The early drawings are coming along nicely Chris.

I got to thinking about the operation of this "bad boy" and was wondering if you happen to know how large of a crew it took to run it?

Jim
I have seen descriptions of up to 8 men to run, for controls and boiler crew.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: MJM460 on October 16, 2017, 12:32:13 PM
Hi Chris, another great project I will be following along.

  It depends on exactly how it operates, but the small boiler may not be too much of a problem (within reason), as I think the engines may normally operate only one at a time.   Perhaps driving and steering though it might even stop for steering.  It would not be a high speed machine.  Similarly the boom operations might be planned to be one at a time, and intermittant to a degree, so giving the boiler time to catch up.  Though might have some little continuous bleeds to clear condensate from the idle engines.

MJM460

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jon Cameron on October 16, 2017, 12:44:18 PM
It's a good point, most steam cranes generally operate on a basis of having twin cylinders, and dog and clutch drives, through gears to the winding drums. How is the setup organised inside? A small boiler operating at 40-60psi and internally gas fired, would probably be sufficient to operate the boom, even lifting heavier loads. It's about getting the internals to quickly transfer the heat to the boiler.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 16, 2017, 05:12:48 PM
Actually the hoist engine, the largest, would be running fairly constantly, engaging the clutch on the bucket as needed, while the swing and dipper boom engines came on and off and reversed frequently. The bucket lowered by clutch and brake under its own weight. Pretty much all the time at least two would run at once during active digging, at least with a skilled operator. The tracks ran off another clutch on the hoist engine, and the steering was its own separate engine added when the tracks replaced the rail trucks.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 16, 2017, 10:03:23 PM
Today's update: started on the dipper boom. Main shape is done, need to add more details (bolts/etc). Position on the main boom is approximate, will finalize when the larger gears that run it in and out are made. Also, realized that I had made the upper sheave on the main boom a single, it needs to be a double, and the other sheave near it had to be moved to the side, so that the chains to the bucket can form a double fall.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/uu51zs23b/Marion_91_v27.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: b.lindsey on October 17, 2017, 01:29:29 AM
Think I may need a 50lb sack if popcorn for this one Chris. Looking good on paper so far though.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 17, 2017, 01:41:27 AM
Think I may need a 50lb sack if popcorn for this one Chris. Looking good on paper so far though.

Bill
You must have a BIG microwave for that much popcorn!!   :Lol:


I just heard from the historical society, the visit from the park service guys from Steamtown has been moved back a week to mid November, so one more week to get the rest of the 3d model in shape before then. The fine details of the engines, drums, clutches, and tracks will have to wait until I get in for my own photos and measurements since the ones I got from other sources don't have any close up shots of them. Still lots I can get done till then.


I am going to be taking a side trip this week to design up a modification to the log advance ratchet mechanism for the water driven sawmill at the museum in Maine. They want to cut the advance distance in half to reduce the stress on the blade, and were going to rework the gears till I pointed out that adding a second set of pawls half a tooth over would mean only having to change a pivot point on the lever. Measurements are coming tomorrow, and I will be drawing the new setup in Fusion for them.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 90LX_Notch on October 17, 2017, 03:08:38 AM
Cool project Chris.  I'll be watching.


-Bob
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on October 17, 2017, 03:14:52 AM
Think I may need a 50lb sack if popcorn for this one Chris. Looking good on paper so far though.

Bill
You must have a BIG microwave for that much popcorn!!   :Lol:


I just heard from the historical society, the visit from the park service guys from Steamtown has been moved back a week to mid November, so one more week to get the rest of the 3d model in shape before then. The fine details of the engines, drums, clutches, and tracks will have to wait until I get in for my own photos and measurements since the ones I got from other sources don't have any close up shots of them. Still lots I can get done till then.


I am going to be taking a side trip this week to design up a modification to the log advance ratchet mechanism for the water driven sawmill at the museum in Maine. They want to cut the advance distance in half to reduce the stress on the blade, and were going to rework the gears till I pointed out that adding a second set of pawls half a tooth over would mean only having to change a pivot point on the lever. Measurements are coming tomorrow, and I will be drawing the new setup in Fusion for them.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the Park Service and Historical Society realizes the opportunity that's being placed in their laps.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 17, 2017, 03:29:37 AM
Think I may need a 50lb sack if popcorn for this one Chris. Looking good on paper so far though.

Bill
You must have a BIG microwave for that much popcorn!!   :Lol:


I just heard from the historical society, the visit from the park service guys from Steamtown has been moved back a week to mid November, so one more week to get the rest of the 3d model in shape before then. The fine details of the engines, drums, clutches, and tracks will have to wait until I get in for my own photos and measurements since the ones I got from other sources don't have any close up shots of them. Still lots I can get done till then.


I am going to be taking a side trip this week to design up a modification to the log advance ratchet mechanism for the water driven sawmill at the museum in Maine. They want to cut the advance distance in half to reduce the stress on the blade, and were going to rework the gears till I pointed out that adding a second set of pawls half a tooth over would mean only having to change a pivot point on the lever. Measurements are coming tomorrow, and I will be drawing the new setup in Fusion for them.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the Park Service and Historical Society realizes the opportunity that's being placed in their laps.

Jim
The historical society is there I think, its been a while to prove myself to them, very understandable since I showed up unknown out of the blue asking for access, but have been able to show enough knowledge and dedication. The park service was called in to do a condition report on the machine, they know nothing of me or my project yet, but coming from Steamtown they are very used to old machines needing restoration. I am providing a detailed set of blueprints for the machine in its current state in return for inside access to a one of a kind machine, which should be a win win for everyone. The shovel is in desperate need of stabilization and restoration, but there is not much chance for much money locally - the local highway guys were just going to slap a coat of bridge paint on it all. Yikes. Thats when the park crew was called. Hopefully this visit along with the plans and model project will stir up some efforts to raise funds, but we all know how governments work, slow and in odd directions usually, but sometimes the right publicity can shove things along. Not often, but sometimes.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ShopShoe on October 17, 2017, 01:48:53 PM
"...the local highway guys were just going to slap a coat of bridge paint on it all."

It's a good thing that at least it has been saved so far. So many times old historical machinery has been destroyed or sold for scrap because some don't have the vision to see beyond the surface appearance.

I hope you can get the access you need. I am following this thread.

--ShopShoe
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 17, 2017, 08:17:15 PM
Some more progress on the dipper boom, made up the bodies for the bucket and bottom lid. Still need to make the mechanism to latch/release the lid - they have a set of levers that pulls a latch rod out to let the lid swing down and empty the dirt/rocks.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/4y3egxasn/Marion_91_v29.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on October 18, 2017, 12:00:48 AM
"...the local highway guys were just going to slap a coat of bridge paint on it all."
I think the Steam Preservation crowd refers to that as "Stuffed and Mounted hung on a Wall"
I hope that is not its fate.
Regards,
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 18, 2017, 12:43:31 AM
"...the local highway guys were just going to slap a coat of bridge paint on it all."
I think the Steam Preservation crowd refers to that as "Stuffed and Mounted hung on a Wall"
I hope that is not its fate.
Regards,
Gerald.
Absolutely. I doubt it will ever be restored to running order, but it really needs to be stabilized at a minimum to prevent its total loss. We need SteamGuyWilly to send us a team like at Beeleigh Mill!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 18, 2017, 03:58:26 PM
Got the dipper bottom and its latch release mechanism modelled up, quite a few levers under there! The release lever is pulled by a rope/chain that pulls a big slide bolt back. Gravity drops the bottom lid, and when the boom swings back for its next bite at the ground, it is tipped up so that gravity swings the lid closed again - neat stuff!

(https://s5.postimg.cc/fryc5juif/Dipper_Boom_And_Bucket_v18.jpg)

Still need to model in the lever near the end of the boom that has the chain up to the release lever in the lid. That lever has another rope that goes back to the cab.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on October 18, 2017, 06:29:19 PM
A little inspiration:

yt3ZQxKl_ZQ
Cletus
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on October 18, 2017, 08:04:15 PM
Wow! That's a blast from the past!  I loved that book when I was a kid!  Now I'm going to have to go find it and read it tonight :)
Thanks Cletus!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 18, 2017, 08:31:48 PM
Excellent! Something to listen to while I draw parts!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: tvoght on October 18, 2017, 09:42:27 PM
Wow! That's a blast from the past!  I loved that book when I was a kid!  Now I'm going to have to go find it and read it tonight :)
Thanks Cletus!
Kim

Same here. My grandmother kept the book at her house. I must have read it a hundred times. Seeing the book's original illustrations in the video brought on a huge wave of nostalgia. Thanks.

--Tim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 18, 2017, 11:12:01 PM
Way cool. Figured out how to make a chain to go from the release lever on the boom to the lever on the bucket bottom cover using a path-pattern operation. Little by little learning Fusion - 47 features learned, 8214712 left to go...!

(https://s5.postimg.org/dq71ijb87/Dipper_Boom_And_Bucket_v19_-_chain.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 19, 2017, 01:14:26 AM
Added the dipper bucket sheave block, think this completes the dipper boom (they call it the dipper stick in the catalog, but that sounds more like a pretzel rod). The yoke and sheave are on swivels, in this picture they are still at right angles rather than aimed up at the top of the main boom, will do that when I add the chains.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/rcccosndj/Marion_91_v33.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on October 19, 2017, 02:05:07 AM
I'm drooling over those CAD pics!! I don' t think I have seen that level of detail before.

And the proper term is "dip stick". I grew up with earth moving as Dad was with CAT.

Many years ago I went to the coast in California where a guy had a steam shovel that he and his friends fired up a few times a year and dug around the guys sand pit. I actually got to work the thing and dig for about a half hour. They let anyone who wanted to try it out, do it!!!

I don't think there's enough pop corn between here and New Zealand to feed the crown watching this build.

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on October 19, 2017, 02:58:42 AM
I'm drooling over those CAD pics!! I don' t think I have seen that level of detail before.

And the proper term is "dip stick". I grew up with earth moving as Dad was with CAT.

Many years ago I went to the coast in California where a guy had a steam shovel that he and his friends fired up a few times a year and dug around the guys sand pit. I actually got to work the thing and dig for about a half hour. They let anyone who wanted to try it out, do it!!!

I don't think there's enough pop corn between here and New Zealand to feed the crown watching this build.

Pete

Pete.........like you, I'm really impressed with Chris's drawings. He's drawing steam shovel parts and I'd still be back at the "stick figure" stage myself!  :wallbang:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 19, 2017, 03:24:14 AM
Thanks guys, I am definitely getting more comfortable with the 3D software, am going back and forth with the photos, zooming in, taking measurements from them and the laser scans, working my way along from part to part. There are a Lot of parts, but fortunately lots of them are repeated. I'm doing my best to document everything, the drawings are all at full scale for now, will take a copy later and scale it all down for the model, but first priority is a set of plans at full size dimensions. If it was not for the 3d systems, these two projects never would have happened!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on October 19, 2017, 07:35:27 AM
I'm drooling over those CAD pics!! I don' t think I have seen that level of detail before.

And the proper term is "dip stick". I grew up with earth moving as Dad was with CAT.

Many years ago I went to the coast in California where a guy had a steam shovel that he and his friends fired up a few times a year and dug around the guys sand pit. I actually got to work the thing and dig for about a half hour. They let anyone who wanted to try it out, do it!!!

I don't think there's enough pop corn between here and New Zealand to feed the crown watching this build.

Pete

Pete,
Maybe if we all go on a  :popcorn: diet we can eek it out until  Chris gets it fired up & he can happily dig up several fields & we can resume normal excessive consumption!,

Chris,
 Those drawings are just looking splendid! The guys are going to get a great set forvery little cost, kudos to you!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 19, 2017, 10:11:28 PM
Todays update to the 3D model, more details on the bucket yoke block straps (which bump out in the center around the shaft and needed through bolts), and added the swing and hoist chains.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/nlpqzm85z/Marion_91_v35.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/t9w1qjf3b/Marion_91_v35a.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/tzeu2w7x3/Marion_91_v35b.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on October 20, 2017, 12:04:47 AM
Another impressive drawing Chris.

I've been trying to figure out if the main boom raises up and down?

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 20, 2017, 12:18:46 AM
Another impressive drawing Chris.

I've been trying to figure out if the main boom raises up and down?

Jim
No - the main boom is at a fixed angle, it just swings side to side.

The smaller boom pivots up and down as the bucket chain is run in and out. There is also going to be another steam engine on the main boom, just below the smaller one, that drives a small gear that engages a gear rack along the bottom of the smaller boom, which makes it extend in and out from the pivot point. That is where they get the rest of the motion on the bucket - a very different mechanism than they use today on things like backhoes.

This video shows the actions nicely - different model machine, but same style booms:
6Pzs7YZICDQ
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on October 20, 2017, 03:14:34 AM
Another impressive drawing Chris.

I've been trying to figure out if the main boom raises up and down?

Jim
No - the main boom is at a fixed angle, it just swings side to side.

The smaller boom pivots up and down as the bucket chain is run in and out. There is also going to be another steam engine on the main boom, just below the smaller one, that drives a small gear that engages a gear rack along the bottom of the smaller boom, which makes it extend in and out from the pivot point. That is where they get the rest of the motion on the bucket - a very different mechanism than they use today on things like backhoes.

This video shows the actions nicely - different model machine, but same style booms:
6Pzs7YZICDQ

Great video Chris. Makes total sense now.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on October 20, 2017, 06:38:03 AM
The dip stick engine drives the crowd spur gear which drives a rack gear on the bottom of the dip stick. Dip stick UP to bring the bucket closer to the house, dip stick DOWN to crowd the bucket into the bank.

I just love this stuff!!!   :whoohoo: :pinkelephant: :cartwheel:

 :cheers:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 20, 2017, 03:20:30 PM
The dip stick engine drives the crowd spur gear which drives a rack gear on the bottom of the dip stick. Dip stick UP to bring the bucket closer to the house, dip stick DOWN to crowd the bucket into the bank.

I just love this stuff!!!   :whoohoo: :pinkelephant: :cartwheel:

 :cheers:

Pete
I think you just wrote the first lyrics to the steam shovel song!


Or: the dipsticks connected to the... Rack gear. The rack gears connected to the... spur gear...  :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: wagnmkr on October 20, 2017, 03:59:18 PM
Errr ... Thanks Chris. That song is in my head now :lolb:

Tom
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 20, 2017, 04:04:14 PM
Errr ... Thanks Chris. That song is in my head now :lolb:

Tom


 :whoohoo:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 20, 2017, 06:09:28 PM
Drew up the Shipper gear, shaft, and holder - this is the large gear set that the crowding engine drives to move the dipper handle in and out. I got the name 'Shipper' from Marion's own catalogs of this engine, not sure where that term comes from but that is what they call it. The catalog also calls the dip stick the 'dipper handle', so those are the terms I am going to use from now on, different terms were used in different eras and regions but that is the terminology that the manufacturer used.
Anyway, new images:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/k1844jm07/Marion_91_v39.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/rtyrwik9j/Marion_91_v39a.jpg)

This completes, I think, the turntable and boom assembly, except for the crowd engine itselft, which will sit just behind the dipper shaft. That will be modelled up later on, after I get in to get more detailed photos next month. Same for the track assemblies, the photos I have now do not show enough internal details.

For now, I think I will move on to measuring up and sketching the main drive gears and drums inside the cab. Also need to prep the sub for a meet at the pool this weekend...

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dave Otto on October 20, 2017, 07:44:10 PM
Hi Chris

Everything in coming along nicely, Fusion sure does a nice job on the chains! Do the gears have an involute tooth form? in the pictures they appear to be more flat?
Not that is matters but I do like the pictures better without the grid, I find it kind of distracting.

Keep up the great work!
Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 20, 2017, 08:01:43 PM
Hi Chris

Everything in coming along nicely, Fusion sure does a nice job on the chains! Do the gears have an involute tooth form? in the pictures they appear to be more flat?
Not that is matters but I do like the pictures better without the grid, I find it kind of distracting.

Keep up the great work!
Dave
They are an involute tooth, at this resolution that does not show up well. The rack teeth are flat sided though.  The teeth on the original were some involute form, though they are so worn its hard to tell! They got a LOT of use by the looks of things, several decades in the quarry will do that.

The grid is there for the ground plane by default, I have not bothered turning that off for the captures since it is buried down a layer or so in the menus.  Better you don't get too distracted or you will... oops, you just crashed... oh well!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 20, 2017, 11:52:13 PM
I started going through the photos and other materials to figure out the gear trains that come from the cranksshafts and to the chain drums and tracks. One thing I had was a set of partial plans that someone else had started about 10 years ago.

Perfect argument for not trusting others plans, and going directly to the source material where possible: The number of teeth he had on several of the gears was wrong, and found one gear on the back side of the driving gear, should have been on the front side - explains why the end of the gear train I came up with (which he only had the first couple of gears shown) was not reaching the front axle!

Once past that, I now have a diagram of all the gears for the swing, hoist, and travel gears. Lots of stuff in there, including brake bands and drum clutches. Still need to figure out where the clutch is for the travel gears, which are driven from the main hoist drum shaft. It might be in the drum assembly, or later on in the gear train - need to do more digging in the photos, may need to read through the Marion patent documents.

Hmmm, took one more look in the Marion catalog, and found this paragraph:

"THE MARION PROPELLING SHAFT
THIS shaft, like others subjected to hard duty, is of the best hammered steel. It is attached underneath
to the car frame by two steel bearings secured by suitable bolt and shear plates to the
center sills. It is driven by a pinion on the hoisting drum shaft in mesh with the propelling gear,
which is riveted to a long sleeve casting keyed to the shaft. The other end of the sleeve casing forms
one member of a jaw clutch, and this engages a similar jaw cast into the side of a double pocket sheave,
wdiich is bronze bushed and loosely mounted on the shaft. This clutch is operated by a lever within
easy reach of the engineer.
"

That is a huge clue as to how it works, now need to track that down in the photos.... The catalogs are a incredible source of information.

EDIT: Found it! There is an idler shaft in the middle of the travel gear train, with a small spur gear and a larger gear driven from the previous shaft. The shaft between appears to be in two parts, once running inside the other. Where it steps down from the larger diameter side, there is a 3-section socket, looks like the 3 jaws of a chuck. On the smaller diameter side, there is a mating set of 3 sections on a slider, with a lever that will push it in and out of the other section to engage/disengage the drive. Hardly a smooth transition, imagine it was a heavy CLUNK as it engaged, but it was only done at slow speed when the machine was moved into a new location to dig. I'll get it drawn up and post some diagrams....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on October 21, 2017, 03:44:53 AM
Good work Sherlock!  :ThumbsUp: Looking forward to the drawings so I can understand what you're talking about.  ;)

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 21, 2017, 03:53:30 AM
Good work Sherlock!  :ThumbsUp: Looking forward to the drawings so I can understand what you're talking about.  ;)

Jim
Yup, will post drawings and a picture of the real thing, simple when you see it, hard to describe. Picture, words, 1000...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 21, 2017, 01:50:02 PM
Found this diagram of the type of jaw clutch that the travel gears use on the Marion to engage/disengage the power from the hoist engine to the tracks.

(http://nptel.ac.in/courses/116102012/clutches/images/fig1.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on October 21, 2017, 05:06:53 PM
Good old dog clutch....

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 22, 2017, 06:54:48 PM
Spent the last couple of days designing up the gear trains for the slew, hoist, and travel mechanisms. Quite a few parts in there, here is an overview picture from the front right corner:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/53vi9ifuv/Gear_Train_v22.jpg)
The forward set of shafts/gears project down through the cab floor and between the center floor frames. Here it is from the back right corner:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/nkpwzydp3/Gear_Train_v23.jpg)
The slew engine will sit behind the gear train in the center, and has the first spur gear in the lower left in the second picture on the end of its crankshaft. The hoist engine cylinders sit on the floor, one on either side of the vertical shaft support blocks. The third shaft from the back is the crankshaft for those engines. That shaft drives the forward set of gears, which drive both the hoist drum and the travel shaft that goes to the tracks.
The hoist drum has a clutch mechanism in the side to engage/release it from the shaft, and also has a brake band on the other end. To engage the drive shaft, there is a dog clutch on one of the lower shafts, shown in the next picture. The handle that moves the clutch will connect up to a lever in the cab, once I trace how that routes. There is a spline the clutch rides on to transfer the power. The spur gear on the other half of the clutch free-wheels on the shaft, and has a ring that it butts up against on the other side.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6pas0xsjb/Gear_Train_v23_-_Clutch.jpg)

EDIT: Corrected the clutch dog image.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 22, 2017, 11:14:07 PM
Added the u-joint couplings that take the final travel shaft out to the tracks - they are the things that look like sideways oilcans on either side of the forwardmost gear. Getting quite crowded under the frame!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/okpen8fd3/Marion_91_v46.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 23, 2017, 06:18:40 PM
Getting to the point where more 3D modelling will have wait for the mid-November visit to the shovel where I can get up close and inside it. Some more detailing on the drive train is done, and I opened the side doors of the cab to allow seeing what is inside. I probably can do some on the outside parts of the steering gear, maybe the outline of the boiler. Other than that I need more measurements from up close.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/kic5trunb/Marion_91_v48a.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/hbhma5hx3/Marion_91_v48b.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/g97frm6tj/Marion_91_v48c.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/tq4eahouv/Marion_91_v48d.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 25, 2017, 02:06:22 AM
Yesterday and today I got a lot done on the last parts that I have good pictures and measurements for - the rear steering mechanism that holds the two rear tracks and allows them to be steered side to side. The tracks mount where the original railroad wheel trucks did, so there are two remaining side bolster blocks that no longer touch anything.

The tracks are steered by a fourth steam engine (which will be just inside the open doorway) that came in the track 'kit' from Marion, which turns a large gear wheel (pink arrow) which turns a worm gear in a box (orange arrow), which drives another long worm gear (red arrow) running across the frames which moves a follower (green arrow) on the end of the heavy arm that comes up from the rear track axle assembly (blue arrow). Lots of connections! The follower is held in a bracket on a large post that can move in and out of the end of the arm, so as it traverses it can handle the extra distance to the worm gear.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fkc4ikstj/Marion_91_v55.jpg)
The large gear (pink arrow) still needs to have the spokes added to it.

Also in this picture you can see the end of the long backstay rods that go up to the top of the A-frame at the front boom - they come down through the cab and attach to the large cross beam just above the track axle assembly. Also, note that the track axle (blue arrow) is itself on an fore/aft pivot bar, so that the tracks can rock side to side as they go over uneven ground. The rear tracks are close together, but the front ones are spread wide apart, so the whole machine is balanced more like a three-wheeler.

One part not modelled is the set of worm/spur gears inside the box at the orange arrow. I need to go read up on worm gears again to figure out a plausible size for those two gears, since they are inside the case I cannot count teeth or measure diameters.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 26, 2017, 09:23:34 PM
The last couple days have been spent working on the boiler assembly in Fusion360 - I think this is as far as I can take the 3D model until the visit inside the real machine in two weeks, when I can get detail pics and measurements of the engines, tracks, piping, and control linkages.

Here are the boiler and water tanks - I left the front left door open to show the fire tubes in view in the smokebox:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/c256jblef/Boiler_v24a.jpg)
The lower bracket under the front of the boiler goes through the floor and bolts to the underside of the main frame rails. Think they did it that way since the tanks would have gotten in the way of the bolts if they had used a cross plate on top of the frames, but not sure. There may be an ash chute under the firebox with another bracket set like this front lower one - another thing I need to see in person, the photos I got from the historical society don't show that angle. If there is a chute and more brackets, then it would make sense, so the entire assembly could be set on the ground during assembly.
Back view of the boiler:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/cewkpij3r/Boiler_v24b.jpg)
The plate down the side is where the boiler shell was rolled and butted up against itself - common on these early boilers.
Here is a view through the door, showing the front of the boiler and the backstay from the boom going througn the front support.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/go1aroenb/Marion_91_v61a.jpg)
And a view from underneath, showing the support bracket attaching to the frame rails, just in front of all the rear track steering mechanism. LOTS of parts on this model!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/i32vgev5z/Marion_91_v61b.jpg)
So, that will be all the updates for a couple of weeks, will pick it up again after the visit to the machine (I have to wait for the park service team to come up, and piggy-backing on that visit - the shovel is fenced off and not open to visitors normally).
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 26, 2017, 10:31:32 PM
Okay, so one more update...  Something I assumed that Fusion360 had but I had never experimented with is the ability to animate the views of the model and save out the video. After a little experimenting I got something going with it - bit choppy but it works, will have to go through more of thier tutorials on it. Anyway, here is a flyby around the current model - no tracks or engines yet, but the rest is there. Now just need to find someone with a REALLY BIG 3d printer...!

6otT_A_t6CI
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: wagnmkr on October 26, 2017, 11:19:58 PM
Lovely drawing Chris ... I sent you an email through here.

Tom
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on October 26, 2017, 11:30:35 PM
Hi Chris,

Can you imagine the brilliant men and women that worked on the original design, what they would say if they saw your work.

Now I cannot wait to see you get started on the first parts.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 26, 2017, 11:59:08 PM
Hi Chris,

Can you imagine the brilliant men and women that worked on the original design, what they would say if they saw your work.

Now I cannot wait to see you get started on the first parts.

Have a great day,
Thomas
I can't imagine how many erasers I would have gone through by now!!  :Lol:


Probably will be cutting real metal by the end of November, should be a really fun build!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 27, 2017, 12:00:13 AM
Lovely drawing Chris ... I sent you an email through here.

Tom
Got it, hopefully the reply made it.   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: b.lindsey on October 27, 2017, 01:11:15 AM
Coming along well Chris. Looking forward to some chipmaking on this one.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on October 27, 2017, 05:43:17 AM
That's some mighty fine CAD work you do there Chris!  And a lot of it.  I'll bet your tools are getting jealous of all the time your spending with the computer these days  :LittleDevil:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on October 27, 2017, 08:55:47 AM
Hi Chris,
Just WOW on the CAD....most impressed!!

On the 3d printer, I had an add come up last night for one that has a 1 meter cube print area (volume??) didn't go & look but you might need a deep pocket for it. Mind you at the way prices are dropping it might not be to bad...a relative term!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 27, 2017, 01:50:31 PM
That's some mighty fine CAD work you do there Chris!  And a lot of it.  I'll bet your tools are getting jealous of all the time your spending with the computer these days  :LittleDevil:
Kim

I'd rather be making chips than pixels myself, but have gotten the tools for a spin occasionally lately with parts for the RC models and such!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 27, 2017, 11:33:16 PM
That's some mighty fine CAD work you do there Chris!  And a lot of it.  I'll bet your tools are getting jealous of all the time your spending with the computer these days  :LittleDevil:
Kim

I'd rather be making chips than pixels myself, but have gotten the tools for a spin occasionally lately with parts for the RC models and such!
Ahhh, feeling much better, got to make some swarf turning out some air hose fittings, getting ready to run the engines all together at Cabin Fever..
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Mcgyver on October 28, 2017, 12:27:08 AM
very impressive.  I saw one (tracked style) at the Milton Steam show a few years and thought it would make an excellent model.  My hats off to you for doing instead of thinking about it :)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 28, 2017, 02:19:50 AM
very impressive.  I saw one (tracked style) at the Milton Steam show a few years and thought it would make an excellent model.  My hats off to you for doing instead of thinking about it :)
Not familiar with that show, just looked it up, have to see if I can get there next year, only a few hours from here!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Mcgyver on October 28, 2017, 04:04:51 PM
Not familiar with that show, just looked it up, have to see if I can get there next year, only a few hours from here!

If you can, its an amazing collection of steam and mechanical things - 2 shovels were there last time I went as well as a lot working traction engines, antique tractors, bulldozers etc. 

I don't like when people hijack threads, but since the subject is old shovels, I thought you might like some photos from the show (4 years ago).  The covered one I thought would make a great model - it might have been Mike Mulligan's lol.  afaik its operating and not to far from me.....it's just I'm scared to take on another project until some of the 500 current ones get done :)

(https://i.imgur.com/InPxlMk.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/IniQQAD.jpg)







Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 28, 2017, 07:51:42 PM
Great pics of those 2 shovels, thanks! I've added that show to my list, hope to make the next one. Surprised they have room there, thought Toronto had overrun everything nearby with skyscrapers and traffic!

That covered one (red/green cab) looks to be an Erie, model 30? Great machines!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 30, 2017, 07:06:01 PM
While waiting for the visit to the Marion shovel in a couple weeks, I've been working on some other things (started carving a steersman for the Lombard hauler, pics when that is farther along), and also doing some more research in to the Marion shovel mechanisms. Today I was reading through more of the original patents from Marion (most are under the names George W King, Charles B King, and H J Barnhart, the head brains behind Marion Steam Shovel). A lot of them are about general ways the frames are made, the shapes of the buckets, that sort of thing.

Two of them are going to be VERY helpful on this model - one details how the steam-operated clutch band works on the hoisting drum, the other shows the inner workings of the slew and crowd engines (which are nearly identical). The drawings in the patents match both the pictures in their #50 catalog and also the pictures of the real things that I have. With the cross-section drawings and descriptions in detail of each part and what they do, I can definitely 3D model up those parts (still need some in-person measurements of them to get the overall sizes) even though the real machine is not available to be disassembled. Excellent when research pays off like this!!   ;D

Here are a couple of the drawings from the original patents, there are a bunch more but these show the kinds of detail they have:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/itia0k7tj/US666348_2_-_Hoist_Clutch.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/9lq1jut1j/US666348_1_-_Hoist_Clutch_2.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/uim9oje7r/US842465_2_-_Slew_Engine_1.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/nfee8x12f/US842465_4_-_Slew_Engine_2.jpg)
Just goes to show - you can never beat access to original documents, and research can pay off (not always, but its worth the try!)
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 30, 2017, 09:55:21 PM
Been reading through those two patents, the hoist drum clutch is probably do-able on the model, only tricky bit is the rotating coupling for the steam supply pipe but that should be do-able with an o-ring seal. The pressure it has to hold is low, it only needs to be able to move the lever pulling the clutch band in. There are all-mechanical options as well.

For the slew/crowd engine, that is one complicated casting for the valve chambers!!  :insane:

What they did was use just a single eccentric per cylinder for the valves, and had a lever that moves a central piston valve back and forth, at one end it connects the steam/exhaust passages in one order, at the other end the passages are connected the opposite way, and the slide D-valves in the steam chests have a hollow passage for the gases in the center, and another open one in the bottom - very clever, I need to come up with some diagrams for it to explain it better.

The advantages of thier arrangement are several:
 - the throttle can be left wide open, since the reversing lever has a graduated set of openings that allow the engine to be run slow to fast, depending how far in one direction the lever is moved.
- in the center position, there is no steam flow to the cylinders at all, stopping the engine.
- for the slew engine, the center valve length is set up so that in the middle (stopped) position, both cylinders are connected to exhaust, so the engine freewheels, allowing the turntable holding the boom to drift to a stop
- for the crowd engine, the center valve length is set up so that in the stopped position, the cylinders are set so neither goes to exhaust, deadlocking the engine so it holds its position, keeping the dipper boom in position.

For the model, this setup would require a very small, very complicated set of passages, which may not be possible to duplicate the way they did it. I think it is going to require some sketches and a simplified version, pretty sure its been done on other model engines, just need to find an example. One that I can think of is that wonderful Monitor engine (not the simpler one some of us have built), which has a plate that swaps the steam lines somehow. Anyone know of an example engine that does this - uses a seperate valve to do the reversing via the passages, rather than depending on a linkage from the crankshaft (as in a Stephenson or walschaerts setup)?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Stuart on October 31, 2017, 07:26:11 AM
Quote
The advantages of thier arrangement are several:
 - the throttle can be left wide open, since the reversing lever has a graduated set of openings that allow the engine to be run slow to fast, depending how far in one direction the lever is moved.
- in the center position, there is no steam flow to the cylinders at all, stopping the engine.
- for the slew engine, the center valve length is set up so that in the middle (stopped) position, both cylinders are connected to exhaust, so the engine freewheels, allowing the turntable holding the boom to drift to a stop


Chris that’s how full size loco’s are operated

Regulator wide open and speed controlled with the regulator

But 5 inch and above models can also be driven that way when the track is long enough it’s a very nice way to run a loco when you are using the steam expansively much smoother

You are doing very well in your research into your new project  got plenty of  :popcorn: in

Stuart
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 31, 2017, 12:15:06 PM
Quote
The advantages of thier arrangement are several:
 - the throttle can be left wide open, since the reversing lever has a graduated set of openings that allow the engine to be run slow to fast, depending how far in one direction the lever is moved.
- in the center position, there is no steam flow to the cylinders at all, stopping the engine.
- for the slew engine, the center valve length is set up so that in the middle (stopped) position, both cylinders are connected to exhaust, so the engine freewheels, allowing the turntable holding the boom to drift to a stop


Chris that’s how full size loco’s are operated

Regulator wide open and speed controlled with the regulator

But 5 inch and above models can also be driven that way when the track is long enough it’s a very nice way to run a loco when you are using the steam expansively much smoother

You are doing very well in your research into your new project  got plenty of  :popcorn: in

Stuart
On these engines they took that one step further and combined the regulator with the reversing valve, all small enough to fit inside the engine block. Quite ingenious!


In order to really understand the passages, I think I will model them as a negative, model the passages as solids with no block around them, like the casting cores would be. Should give a better idea of how it all works, and will then use that to cut the outer block in the 3d model. In looking at the patent drawings, I'm amazed that they could think this one up, let alone cast it!

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 01, 2017, 02:52:13 PM
I've started designing up the slew/crowd engines (same engine except for the gear on the crankshaft) based on the drawings and information in the patent from 1907, which has amazingly detailed cross-section views and descriptions of all the parts and passages. So far I have the cylinders and outer shell of the steam chest/reverse valve chest.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/w4y5o0asn/Slew_Engine_v26.jpg)
The next step is the really complex one - going through the cross section drawings one by one and piecing in the internal passages and ports. The cross sections look to have all I need to do that, its just that there are so many of them - it has the ability to swap the steam input and exhaust output feeds to both cylinders. Maybe by the end I'll have some clue as to how they cast this beast, right now I think its impossible without cast-iron-eating-elves!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 01, 2017, 08:27:37 PM
Some more done on the valve chest passages. Here is a cutaway view showing the slots down from the valve slider face to the cylinders:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wvvh6z4yf/Slew_Engine_v37_-_Passages_2.jpg)
and a side view showing those passages as well as the ones inside the valve slider:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bm7uw4gxz/Slew_Engine_v37_-_Passages.jpg)
The slider is in red, and rather than just the typical rectangular recess in the base, it has two internal passages. There is the half-round one in the base, and also a curved slot that runs through the middle. This is part of the clever bit in this engine, where they can swap the input steam and output exhaust flows. The slider connects pairs of passages - two to the cylinder, plus the normal central one and a new one at the left. Those two are what change 'meaning' depending on the setting of the throttle/reverse valve which is in the center between the cylinders (have not modeled that part yet). There are a bunch more passages that will connect these up with that valve, will start modeling them next. Remember, this is not my design, I am drawing the engines from the Marion patent drawings, as they existed 100+ years ago.
Here is a view under the bottom of the slider, showing its passages:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/58irsz6xz/Slew_Engine_v38_-_slider.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on November 02, 2017, 12:39:41 AM
 :happyreader:

 :popcorn: :popcorn:

 :cheers:

Pete  (with apologies to Marvin)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 02, 2017, 01:29:25 AM
:happyreader:

 :popcorn: :popcorn:

 :cheers:

Pete  (with apologies to Marvin)

Thanks Pete!

I'll take the liberty of translating for him:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
  "Avidly reading along in your thread!"

  "Like watching a good movie, need lots of popcorn!"

  "Cheers!"
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

 :facepalm2:

I find that these cutaway views allow for about an hours work at a time, after that the visualization circuits overheat and I need to go do something else for half a day, then I can come back and do some more. The information is all there in the patent, and I am blown away by how many wrap-around shapes he was able to design in the days of pen/pencil and paper alone. Probably a fair bet that he built up a number of wood-block models as well, but some people don't need that either. Quite an impressive design, getting that many features into such a small space, but keeping it all robust enough that these things would run for decades with minimal repairs and parts replacement. The main wear item in the valving is the spool slider down the center of the engine, which ran in a sleeve inserted into the casting so that they could replace the sleeve and slider if they wore out.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: joe d on November 02, 2017, 04:05:02 PM
Chris:

Following along with great interest, this promises to be another good'un.

You could combine several of your interests, here's a photo of a Marion dragline
on a barge dredging the harbour  in Halifax Nova Scotia in 1910...

would provide enough depth of water for a submarine...

(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee257/240283/Marion%20dragline_zpsyjw9ruw4.png) (http://s235.photobucket.com/user/240283/media/Marion%20dragline_zpsyjw9ruw4.png.html)

Cheers, Joe
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 02, 2017, 06:32:22 PM
Chris:

Following along with great interest, this promises to be another good'un.

You could combine several of your interests, here's a photo of a Marion dragline
on a barge dredging the harbour  in Halifax Nova Scotia in 1910...

would provide enough depth of water for a submarine...

(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee257/240283/Marion%20dragline_zpsyjw9ruw4.png) (http://s235.photobucket.com/user/240283/media/Marion%20dragline_zpsyjw9ruw4.png.html)

Cheers, Joe
Thats a great picture!

Hmmm, dig a pond in the back yard with it for the submarine, then if the sub gets stuck, use it to grab the hull...!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 02, 2017, 06:38:45 PM
I think I have the passages all mapped out correctly in the slew engine, and I made up a set of screen captures showing them from several angles. Was just about to post them, but it looks like PostImage's website has thrown a rod, and I cannot get in to upload the pictures. Fortunately their servers appear to still be serving out pics that were already uploaded.

So, I'll try again this evening and get the pictures up....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on November 02, 2017, 10:53:02 PM
Given that it's difficult to make a small engine run slowly, the gear ratios may need to change from the prototype in order to have the shovel move in a realistic manner.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 02, 2017, 11:15:24 PM
Okay, PostImage is back fully alive again, here we go on the internal passages...

I have been 3D modeling up the slew and crowd engines (same design), based on the cross-section drawings in the patent from 1907 that Marion filed on it. Quite a complex little beast, with the forward/reverse and the throttle all controlled by one central valve, and it only has one eccentric/valve per cylinder, keeping it a very compact unit. The central valve switches the steam and exhaust back and forth between passages, as well as slowly allows more steam through as it is moved farther in each direction. It is a hollow spool valve with the incoming steam coming in the center, going out either end into the passages in the block. It rides inside a sleeve with patterns of holes that allow more steam past as the valve moves farther along.

Here is what the outside of the cylinder block looks like:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ko58c34rr/Slew_Engine_v49_-_Cylinder_Block.jpg)
and with some of the outer skins removed:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8m9uhyqef/Slew_Engine_v49_-_Passages_5.jpg)
To help me track the passages, I did a bunch of color coding. In the previous image, the red is the valve slider, and the green is the block containing the 5 (yes 5) passages, two to the ends of the cylinders, three to carry steam/exhaust around. On the top plate, exposed in that picture, the outer two rectangular ports in the center section always carry steam into the steam chests, to keep the valve sliders pressed onto the valve faces. The inner three ports swap between carrying steam and exhaust, depending where the slider is.
In this next picture, there is more of the structure removed, better showing the valve sliders, and the sleeve (with all the holes) that the central control valve slides in showing.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/yhtl15kif/Slew_Engine_v49_-_Passages_4.jpg)
In the rest of the pictures, I inverted what you are seeing - I took a solid block inside the engine, and used the structure of the engine to cut away anyplace where a wall or part was, so what you are seeing now are the passages and ports, usually empty space, converted to solid.
More color coding here. The purple at the front is one set of passages, the brown behind it is another, and the dark blue behind that is the third. The yellow and white are the passages under the steam chest that go to the cylinder ends. The lighter blue/purple arcs over the sides are the passages inside the valve slider, and the top of the purple under it, shaped like a semi-circle, is the area in the recess on the bottom of the valve slider, which normall would do all the work, but in this engine it only does half, the upper semicircle does the rest.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rrd3rqcs7/Slew_Engine_v49_-_Passages1.jpg)
Here is a view from the back corner:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5ffaybit3/Slew_Engine_v49_-_Passages_3.jpg)
and a view from underneath:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/en7jf0xl3/Slew_Engine_v49_-_Passages_2.jpg)
As you can see, the different colored passages wind around each other, but do not touch each other. Depending on where the central control valve is, the steam and exhaust will make thier way through the passages in the body of the engine, and the two passages inside the valve sliders will communicate to the yellow/white ports into the cylinders.

Quite a mechanism, isn't it!   :insane:

These shapes are not something that I made up, they are how things are shaped in the actual engine, as close as I could come to duplicating the patent drawings into three dimensions. The large curves on the bottom of it all are where things wrap around the tops of the cylinders.

Now, for those of you that do casting, can you give me ANY clue as to how the heck they sand cast this sucker? I know that there are ways to insert pre-formed pieces of sand to make ports, but this many layers? Remember, this engine has 10" pistons, and the cylinders are about 14.4" long, so this whole thing is pretty big.

For the model, which will be somewhere in the neighborhood of 1:12 to 1:20 scale, doing ports that duplicate this exactly is impossible (at least for me, unless I can train some tiny elves to use teensy angle grinders to carve it from solid). I have, however, had some ideas on duplicating most of the functions of this using a simpler set of ports, and with spool valves on the cylinders as well as in the central section - just have that sketched on paper so far, need to convert it to a 3D model, then will share that in a future post. I think that in that form I can keep the same outer size of the engine, in a form that I can whittle out on the lathe/mill from a solid chunk. Maybe.

Whew. Been an intense several days working on this, I need chocolate chip cookies!!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 02, 2017, 11:18:19 PM
Given that it's difficult to make a small engine run slowly, the gear ratios may need to change from the prototype in order to have the shovel move in a realistic manner.
Thats very possible, I did change the ones on the Lombard for that reason. On this one, the ratios are already fairly high, a lot is going to depend on what scale I end up at for the model. The gear boxes are big enough that changing the ratios a bit wont be noticeable in the model. For the initial plans, with everything done at full 1:1 scall to document the real machine, I am sticking with the actual tooth counts (at least as close as I can get, may be off a tooth or two on some of the ones hidden deep in the bowels).

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 02, 2017, 11:20:19 PM
Oh, and forgot to point out in the last picture - there are two pipes coming out the top of the engine, the upper one is the steam input pipe from the boiler, the one lower down closer to the centerline of the cylinders is the exhaust output pipe.

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on November 02, 2017, 11:20:39 PM
Neat stuff!!

 :popcorn:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 02, 2017, 11:22:17 PM
Neat stuff!!

 :popcorn:

Pete
I think you need one of these in the plane. Its very compact, and the reversing mechanism will let you parallel park in the hanger!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: MJM460 on November 03, 2017, 11:57:47 AM
Hi Chris, amazing valve and port design.  I don't know how you figured it out, let alone the original designers.  I suppose it developed in stages.

Could you make them by cutting plates matching the vertical slices, stacking, pinning for alignment and silver soldering them all together?

MJM460
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 03, 2017, 12:16:50 PM
Hi Chris, amazing valve and port design.  I don't know how you figured it out, let alone the original designers.  I suppose it developed in stages.

Could you make them by cutting plates matching the vertical slices, stacking, pinning for alignment and silver soldering them all together?

MJM460
Making it from slices might work, at least down to a certain scale. Getting a seal all the way through on all those surfaces would be a big challenge though. I have worked out a version that just uses spool valves on all three positions that I think is practical for model sizes, need to loft it up in 3d to be sure it can be made. As usual with a spool valve model, there would be cross passages to drill, then have the end of the hole plugged. I will post that version once I get it drawn.


For drawing up the real engine, it was all taken from the patent images, which included 11 different outside and cross section views, very complete and incredibly well done. The genius behind it appears to be Charles B King, who had quite a range of inventions. His brother George and Harry Barnhart were the founders of Marion Steam Shovel.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dreeves on November 03, 2017, 04:58:39 PM
Chris, Could it be 3d printed then investment cast?  Looking forward to seeing completed parts.

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 03, 2017, 05:48:48 PM
Chris, Could it be 3d printed then investment cast?  Looking forward to seeing completed parts.

Dave
Seems like that would work. From what I've seen on prices on Shapeways, it would be pretty expensive though. They do have restrictions on interior hollow spaces, since they need to be able to get the powders out when they print the form that they cast from. Could handle that with some plugs, I guess.

I really wonder how they did it on the original machine!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on November 03, 2017, 09:50:08 PM
I would expect that the cores and molds were made up of multiple, but simpler parts, and then glued together during the final mold assembly.  There were/are recipes for making baked sand cores using not much more than flour, water, molasses and sand.  The cores for modern inlet manifold passages and other complex parts are made up of many small parts glued together in a jig.  This assembly is then placed in the mold, which forms the outside of the part, and the part cast in metal.

If you want to get an appreciation for the art of sand casting, check out this one about 2-3 minutes into the video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRsYIiUxZeQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRsYIiUxZeQ)

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 03, 2017, 09:58:47 PM
I would expect that the cores and molds were made up of multiple, but simpler parts, and then glued together during the final mold assembly.  There were/are recipes for making baked sand cores using not much more than flour, water, molasses and sand.  The cores for modern inlet manifold passages and other complex parts are made up of many small parts glued together in a jig.  This assembly is then placed in the mold, which forms the outside of the part, and the part cast in metal.

If you want to get an appreciation for the art of sand casting, check out this one about 2-3 minutes into the video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRsYIiUxZeQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRsYIiUxZeQ)

Don
Nice video!

I didn't know that they could piece up the mould cores like that, gotta be a real art to it.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 03, 2017, 11:03:16 PM
Well, I think the 3D model of the full-size slew/crowd engine is complete - got the valve eccentrics/rods, and piston/conrods, crankshaft all in. Here are some pictures of the engine and some cutaways:

(https://s5.postimg.cc/x78spq07b/Slew_Engine_v71a.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/w4ym76p3r/Slew_Engine_v71b.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/avazwcgiv/Slew_Engine_v71c.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/6yxo0d393/Slew_Engine_v71d.jpg)

Next on the list is a mock-up of the passages/valves for an attempt at a simpler version that will work at small model scale, but first a few days away from the computer to let the little grey cells recover from this one!!

 :cheers:

EDIT: and could not resist seeing how it looks on the main boom. Still need to make the spur gears for either side, and get the engine placement tweaked so the gears mesh correctly, but looks pretty impressive up there!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8s0komj9z/Marion_91_v71.jpg)

 
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on November 04, 2017, 02:22:49 AM
hi ,its good to be able to get all those drawings !  and looks like a major build project... :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 04, 2017, 02:53:01 AM
Well, I think the 3D model of the full-size slew/crowd engine is complete - got the valve eccentrics/rods, and piston/conrods, crankshaft all in. Here are some pictures of the engine and some cutaways:

Next on the list is a mock-up of the passages/valves for an attempt at a simpler version that will work at small model scale, but first a few days away from the computer to let the little grey cells recover from this one!!

 :cheers:

EDIT: and could not resist seeing how it looks on the main boom. Still need to make the spur gears for either side, and get the engine placement tweaked so the gears mesh correctly, but looks pretty impressive up there!
(https://s5.postimg.org/8s0komj9z/Marion_91_v71.jpg)
Very interesting Chris. I guess this was a really specialized engine. Back then, I guess you couldn't just go on-line and order a "Binford 80-00-80 Steam Engine", bolt that sucker to the boom and go to work!  ;)

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 04, 2017, 12:25:19 PM
hi ,its good to be able to get all those drawings !  and looks like a major build project... :popcorn:
Definitely going to be a long term build, much more to this one than the Lombard, with two pairs of tracks, the boom assembly, and four twin cylinder engines, plus all the frame and cab. Going to be fun!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 04, 2017, 12:34:17 PM

Very interesting Chris. I guess this was a really specialized engine. Back then, I guess you couldn't just go on-line and order a "Binford 80-00-80 Steam Engine", bolt that sucker to the boom and go to work!  ;)

Jim
Oooh, good question, when did Binford start?!?  :Lol:


Marion makes a big deal about the controls for these engines, all set up with a single lever to control both speed and direction, simplifying the job for the operator. The hoist engine and the hoist drum clutch are also controlled by a single valve, that engages the clutch first, then feeds steam in increasing amounts to the engine. At the off position, the valve also connects the cylinder ports directly to the exhaust, so it can freewheel when lowering the bucket, using the brakes to slow it if needed. All these things let the operator control everything with fewer levers than earlier models. Very clever stuff.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 04, 2017, 03:18:12 PM
Chris--You're getting pretty handy with the 3d modelling. I know how steep the learning curve is. You are doing nice work.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 04, 2017, 05:15:20 PM
Chris--You're getting pretty handy with the 3d modelling. I know how steep the learning curve is. You are doing nice work.---Brian
Thanks Brian - For this type of modeling I am going pretty quickly with it, have not spent much time on the 'mesh' side of the application for more organic shapes yet. It is so much quicker and easier for me to do these designs this way than with pencil/paper, which I still use for quick little parts to get dimensions figured out for making a standalone part right away. They still have some bugs to work out in the sketching part, but that is improving pretty quickly too.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 05, 2017, 07:18:54 PM
Okay, bunch of sketching in Fusion360, a few crashes of the application and resketching those bits, and I have a slightly simplified version of Marion's slew/crowd engines that I can build at a model scale. I arranged things so that the cross passages can all be drilled through the sides of a large block, and the ends plugged up to make them internal-only passages. Also, the center piston valve won't have the series of interlocking and varying size holes that the original had, so it will not act as well as a throttle like the original, but should have some throttle effect as well as controlling forward/reverse motion. It should also be possible to machine the valve assemblies as a seperate unit from the cylinders, and mate them up with a flat face above the cylinders to bolt to.

So, here are the concept drawings from Fusion. Starting off, here is an outside view with all the blocks in place, except for the cylinders below and the valve chest covers above. The green block in the center contains the forward/revese/throttle piston valve, the pistons are in blue below, and the steam input pipe is in red at the right, exhaust pipe above it.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/i4x0y9z4n/Reversing_Piston_Valve_Concept_v18_-_Overview.jpg)
Here is a cutaway view, with the steam chest on the near side removed, as well as one half of the center valve block, to show the internals:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5qa8xyurr/Reversing_Piston_Valve_Concept_v18_-_Center_Cutaway.jpg)
Now, on to straight-on side views of the center valve to show its actions. The center piston valve controls which passage that the steam and exhaust flow through to the steam chests above each piston. The piston valve has its center cut away to connect two ports, and the piston is hollow (with ports to take the steam around the end of the control rod at the left) to allow steam to reach both ends of the valve for two reasons - 1, to keep the pressure from pushing the valve to the left, and 2, to allow steam to flow to the port on the left when the valve is to the right.
In this picture, the valve is in the left-most position, connecting port A with the exhaust, and port B with the steam. This will let the engine run in one direction. The grey circle to the right of the piston is a passageway to the steam chests that always lets steam in around the slide valves, more on that later.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/lbrkhxm5j/Reversing_Piston_Valve_Concept_v18_-_Control_Valve_Left.jpg)
Next, here is the control valve in the center position, which does not connect either port A or B to anything, which is the 'throttle off' position, which locks the piston in place to keep the engine from freewheeling, and keeping the boom in position.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/54la1mf2f/Reversing_Piston_Valve_Concept_v18_-_Control_Valve_Center.jpg)

Here is the control valve to the rightmost position, where it connects port A to steam (via the hollow center of the piston slider), and port B to the exhaust. This makes the engine run in the opposite direction as it did in the leftmost position.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5essl1e9z/Reversing_Piston_Valve_Concept_v18_-_Control_Valve_Right.jpg)

Okay, now over to the steam chest above the cylinders. Both work the same, so I'll just show one of them. Rather than a typical D-valve slider with just one chamber underneath, Marion's engine used a slider that had the bottom chamber plus a passageway above it that could connect two more passages. Thiers was a nice rounded set of shapes, to make something I can machine in a very small size, I've made it a rectangular set of shapes, with the inner passageway drilled then plugged on the right side.
Notice also that the chamber around the valve is filled with steam, though it is only used to push the slider down, this steam never goes into the engine. It gets there through that side passage from the center valve that I mentioned earlier. One thing that I wonder about on the original engine is where any condensation in that are goes, they didn't seem to give a place for it to drain to. When I get in to see the real engine I want to look for a drain cock in that area.
So, this diagram is showing the slide valve in the steam chest it its rightmost position, connecting steam from passage A on the left to the left end of the cylinder, and exhaust from the right end of the cylinder to passage B on the right. This would push the piston to the right.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/pkwak3hp3/Reversing_Piston_Valve_Concept_v21_-_Slider_Right.jpg)

In this diagram, the slider has been moved over to the left position by the eccentrics, and the steam from passage A on the left is now routed to the passage going to the right end of the cylinder, and exhaust from the left end of the cylinder is routed through the bottom cavity to passage B, pushing the piston back to the left.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/n4uh62zkn/Reversing_Piston_Valve_Concept_v21_-_Slider_Left.jpg)
If the central control valve was in the opposite position, the steam/exhaust would be swapped, with steam coming in passage B on the right, and exhaust going out passage A on the left, making the piston move in the opposite cycle. Pretty slick that they came up with a way to make this work with just one central control valve. Thier version has a collection of different size ports on that central valve, to give a more gradual throttle response than my simpler version does.

One thing that this design does not allow is timing the eccentrics a few degrees off the 90 degree position from the crankshaft, in this design the cam must be at 90 degrees.

So, later on when I decide on a final scale for the model, looks like I will be able to design up a version of the engine that looks and operates like the original, but without the very complex inner-passage casting that the original needed.
 :whoohoo:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: b.lindsey on November 06, 2017, 12:54:48 AM
So Chris, what do you have the shop elves doing while you are drawing??  :headscratch: Not making trouble I hope :)

Bill
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 06, 2017, 01:14:22 AM
So Chris, what do you have the shop elves doing while you are drawing??  :headscratch: Not making trouble I hope :)

Bill
You're right, it's tough to keep them entertained between builds, so I am alternating them between reorganizing the shop to make useful room for the mini mill I picked up from a friend's estate, carving a steersman for the Lombard model (who looks vaguely familiar), raking leaves, and polishing the carousel horse that I finished carving and painting for a friend. Its kept them mostly out of trouble, between sessions racing squirrels down the street (not sure where they got those little saddles!).


 :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 06, 2017, 03:05:57 AM
So Chris, what do you have the shop elves doing while you are drawing??  :headscratch: Not making trouble I hope :)

Bill
You're right, it's tough to keep them entertained between builds, so I am alternating them between reorganizing the shop to make useful room for the mini mill I picked up from a friend's estate, carving a steersman for the Lombard model (who looks vaguely familiar), raking leaves, and polishing the carousel horse that I finished carving and painting for a friend. Its kept them mostly out of trouble, between sessions racing squirrels down the street (not sure where they got those little saddles!).


 :ROFL:

Mini Mill?????

PS: Drawings are looking great Chris.  :ThumbsUp: I'm looking forward to hearing about your upcoming visit to the full size machine.

Jim

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 06, 2017, 01:41:52 PM
So Chris, what do you have the shop elves doing while you are drawing??  :headscratch: Not making trouble I hope :)

Bill
You're right, it's tough to keep them entertained between builds, so I am alternating them between reorganizing the shop to make useful room for the mini mill I picked up from a friend's estate, carving a steersman for the Lombard model (who looks vaguely familiar), raking leaves, and polishing the carousel horse that I finished carving and painting for a friend. Its kept them mostly out of trouble, between sessions racing squirrels down the street (not sure where they got those little saddles!).


 :ROFL:

Mini Mill?????

PS: Drawings are looking great Chris.  :ThumbsUp: I'm looking forward to hearing about your upcoming visit to the full size machine.

Jim
Yup, picked up a Grizzly mini mill that belonged to one of the rc submarine gang here who passed away this past year, should come in handy on some of the larger gears and such. Bit cruder than the Sherline but has a longer reach. Biggest silly thing on it is that the feedscrews are .0625 per turn. Where did that come from?? I am waiting for LMS to get the .050 per turn feedscrew kit back in stock.


I am really looking forward to seeing the shovel in person, two more weeks to wait! Lots of details on my list to investigate and measure.  Finding all the details in the old patents has filled in lots of details on some parts, but still lots to see.

Correction: week and two days to wait!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Stuart on November 06, 2017, 03:36:51 PM
Chris

That is a odd lead screw pitch it’s not even in our language ( mm) very odd

You have heard the term ear worm for a tune that you cannot get rid of ,well elves racing squirrels is in my head ,I have the image stuck now every time I see the tree rats down the garden plaguing the local cats 🐱

Great work on the design work in fusion , just had a bad cam from fusion rammed a carbide end mill into the nearly finished part ,full rapid in Z- 🙈🤯

Still got plenty of  :popcorn:

Stuart
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 06, 2017, 07:43:11 PM
Chris

That is a odd lead screw pitch it’s not even in our language ( mm) very odd

You have heard the term ear worm for a tune that you cannot get rid of ,well elves racing squirrels is in my head ,I have the image stuck now every time I see the tree rats down the garden plaguing the local cats 🐱

Great work on the design work in fusion , just had a bad cam from fusion rammed a carbide end mill into the nearly finished part ,full rapid in Z- 🙈🤯

Still got plenty of  :popcorn:

Stuart
Grizzly seems proud that it is a 1/16th per turn advance, but that was obviously written by a non-tool-using marketoid with his head in the swarf barrel...   :LittleDevil:

Glad I could get the visual of the elves racing on squirrels stuck in your head! Wish I had the drawing skills to do a cartoon of that one!
I did find these two:
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/d1/dd/aa/d1ddaa2a380a0fd975c9308166e297e4.jpg)

(https://sep.yimg.com/ay/yhst-83547458988818/solar-gnome-riding-squirrel-1.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: tvoght on November 06, 2017, 07:54:18 PM

Grizzly seems proud that it is a 1/16th per turn advance, but that was obviously written by a non-tool-using marketoid with his head in the swarf barrel...   :LittleDevil:


I'm picturing a shop where the only metrology instrument is  a tape measure with sixteenth inch graduations and the logo "Vote Billy Fox County Surveyor".

--Tim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 06, 2017, 08:37:36 PM

Grizzly seems proud that it is a 1/16th per turn advance, but that was obviously written by a non-tool-using marketoid with his head in the swarf barrel...   :LittleDevil:


I'm picturing a shop where the only metrology instrument is  a tape measure with sixteenth inch graduations and the logo "Vote Billy Fox County Surveyor".

--Tim
And the tape is one foot long...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: MJM460 on November 06, 2017, 11:43:18 PM
Hi Chris, great adaption of that valve gear, I was unable to even see how it worked until you showed your simplified version.  I think that would come in handy for a twin cylinder boat engine, needing only one eccentric per cylinder, a really elegant arrangement.  Even if a separate throttle was required.  Probably much easier to move with a servo than conventional reversing linkages.

I think you are right about needing that condensate drain in the outer section of the steam chest though.  It looks like it will fill with condensate, so may jam before there is enough heat to keep it evaporated.  Or perhaps the condensate just allows the valve to move back and forth with minimal extra resistance.  I am sure I remember you saying locating it is on your list for your visit.

The wonderful work is continuing to your usual standard.

MJM460

By the way, the 1/16 lead screw pitch would go well with the 1/8 pitch on my lathe.  So long as the tape is metal, not plastic like dressmakers use!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 07, 2017, 12:30:34 AM
Hi Chris, great adaption of that valve gear, I was unable to even see how it worked until you showed your simplified version.  I think that would come in handy for a twin cylinder boat engine, needing only one eccentric per cylinder, a really elegant arrangement.  Even if a separate throttle was required.  Probably much easier to move with a servo than conventional reversing linkages.

I think you are right about needing that condensate drain in the outer section of the steam chest though.  It looks like it will fill with condensate, so may jam before there is enough heat to keep it evaporated.  Or perhaps the condensate just allows the valve to move back and forth with minimal extra resistance.  I am sure I remember you saying locating it is on your list for your visit.

The wonderful work is continuing to your usual standard.

MJM460

By the way, the 1/16 lead screw pitch would go well with the 1/8 pitch on my lathe.  So long as the tape is metal, not plastic like dressmakers use!
It would work well for a boat engine, very compact and a low center of gravity. If made to a slightly larger size, should be doable to include a sleeve like Marion did to give a better throttle behavior to the control valve.  Seems to be one of those forgotten bits of technology.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on November 07, 2017, 12:49:14 AM
That's a fascinating valve, Chris. I'm still trying to wrap my head around how it works. I'm really following this thread as there are all sorts of neat mechanicals on a unit like this shovel, mostly forgotten now!

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 07, 2017, 08:20:16 PM
Some more fiddly bits on the hoist drum assembly - the steam-operated clutch band mechanism which engages/disengages the drum from the gear and shaft it runs on. When the cluth is disengaged, the drum can spin freely on the shaft. The gear that drives the shaft is fixed to the shaft.

This is another place where I found Marion's patent for this mechanism. They put a lever operated band around the end of the hoist drum, tightening the band when the lever moves by way of a small offset rod on the lever pivot. That lever is attached to the gear, and spins with it. The lever is pushed by a small steam operated piston. When the steam is removed, a spring pulls the lever back to the disengaged position. The band has a lining of wood blocks that push on the rim of the hoist drum.

The tricky bit is that the piston and lever are both attached to the large gear, and spin with it. They ran the steam input and exhaust output pipes back down through the shaft, and out the end of the shaft's center, where they have a packing gland that the steam pipe can spin within. They take this pipe, and run it down to a small D-valve box on the floor to control it. Clever bit of plumbing. In previous mechanisms, this clutch would often be actuated by a rod running down the center of the shaft, which worked but was difficult to keep adjusted as it wore.

Anyway, enough words, here are some pictures of how the 3D model of it looks. Here is a side angle showing the lever, piston, and control valve on the floor with all the piping.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/p46y3egdz/Gear_Train_v62_-_Hoist_Clutch.jpg)

And here is a view from the other side of the large gear, showing the hoist drum with the clutch band.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/p5gvwisev/Gear_Train_v62_-_Hoist_Clutch_Band.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 09, 2017, 08:24:09 PM
While waiting for the trip to get inside/around the Marion shove on Wednesday, been doing some carving on the steersman figure for the Lombard hauler. Shape is roughed down pretty well, ready to do the detail shaping on the face and hands next...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3lvedeizb/IMG_1158.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on November 10, 2017, 10:04:09 PM
In your post on November 7 you were discussing the clutch on the hoist drum.  I get why they used the steam actuated clutch band, that's kind of ingenious. I can even understand why they had to make that device part of the rotating assembly.  There's not a lot of available room there, even though it does add the complexity of rotary couplings for the steam.  But I pity the poor schmoe that they sent out to service this thing - working on this thing in 1:1 scale had to be a nightmare.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 10, 2017, 10:37:30 PM
In your post on November 7 you were discussing the clutch on the hoist drum.  I get why they used the steam actuated clutch band, that's kind of ingenious. I can even understand why they had to make that device part of the rotating assembly.  There's not a lot of available room there, even though it does add the complexity of rotary couplings for the steam.  But I pity the poor schmoe that they sent out to service this thing - working on this thing in 1:1 scale had to be a nightmare.

Don
Especially with all the grease, rock dust on everything, all the parts hot, and a quarry foreman breathing down his neck to get it back in operation!

The clutch band, with its wood lining, must have been something needing replacement (the wood part anyway) fairly often. It does not look too hard to get at, as long as the gear was stopped with the clutch and its lever at the top. That gear it is on is about 4 feet in diameter, the clutch cylinder is about 6" bore, so all those parts are quite large and easy to handle. The clutch mechanism itself is simple, but any problem with the piping through the main shaft would be nasty to service.

The brake band is the same type with a wood lining, but at least it is only a semi-circle around the drum, with one end on a threaded tensioning rod, and the other end on the brake lever. I would think it would need replacement often too, even with a durable hardwood for the pads. (pity the apprentice who thought he would help by greasing them!)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Stuart on November 11, 2017, 07:21:33 AM
Chris
Don’t knock the wood

When I start w**k 55 years ago as an apprentice electrical at the local iron work the had lots of electric overhead cranes ( I am 70 now ) those were old then most had wood blocks for brake shoes for the main hoist these were up to about 15 ton lift they worked in very dirty dusty conditions and lasted a couple of years , they were made in the chippies shop on their band saw so were cheap

The bigger modern cranes at 750ton lift in the melting plant used the modern friction material

Great work you are doing in fusion360 a pleasure to see

Stuart
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 11, 2017, 12:36:19 PM
Chris
Don’t knock the wood

When I start w**k 55 years ago as an apprentice electrical at the local iron work the had lots of electric overhead cranes ( I am 70 now ) those were old then most had wood blocks for brake shoes for the main hoist these were up to about 15 ton lift they worked in very dirty dusty conditions and lasted a couple of years , they were made in the chippies shop on their band saw so were cheap

The bigger modern cranes at 750ton lift in the melting plant used the modern friction material

Great work you are doing in fusion360 a pleasure to see

Stuart
Hi Stuart,

I wouldn't have thought the wood brake linings would last that long, but the surface area on a 4' drum is quite large, so the load is spread, and the speed is low, so it could last. Do you know what kind of wood they used?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Stuart on November 11, 2017, 02:25:02 PM
Chris

well there were no Knots in it ,I suspect it was Ash

yours asking a lot for my brain cell I can picture them in my mind and a close grained fudge coloured wood come to mind

drums were of course Cast Iron and as you can imagine well polished

dims 24 in dia 6 inches wide but thats all from memory
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 11, 2017, 02:50:11 PM
Chris

well there were no Knots in it ,I suspect it was Ash

yours asking a lot for my brain cell I can picture them in my mind and a close grained fudge coloured wood come to mind

drums were of course Cast Iron and as you can imagine well polished

dims 24 in dia 6 inches wide but thats all from memory

Might of been something like Ironbark: https://www.woodsolutions.com.au/species/ironbark-grey Ironbark was used a lot in the boat building trade where there was going to be any wear (ex. on the side where a crab or lobster pot would rub or on the bow where the anchor would hit when being pulled).

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steam Haulage on November 11, 2017, 03:53:11 PM
From the background reading I have done on steam shovels in the UK it seems brake blocks were made from Elm. But that was before Dutch Elm Disease in the seventies.

(I have started a new thread to ask some questions about Ruston-Bucyrus so as not to hijack this thread of Chris's.)
Jerry
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 11, 2017, 07:42:00 PM
From the background reading I have done on steam shovels in the UK it seems brake blocks were made from Elm. But that was before Dutch Elm Disease in the seventies.

(I have started a new thread to ask some questions about Ruston-Bucyrus so as not to hijack this thread of Chris's.)
Jerry
An, yes, good old Elm, that was used for lots of things like that before the disease wiped them out.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on November 13, 2017, 06:39:15 PM
Lookie what I found. Not a Marion but very similar. Too bad one can't see the 'rear' end but it's blocked by the coal wagon.

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 13, 2017, 07:06:07 PM
Lookie what I found. Not a Marion but very similar. Too bad one can't see the 'rear' end but it's blocked by the coal wagon.

Pete
Neat - looks like a very similar track system as on the Marion here. I knew that most of the companies offered railroad trucks and giant traction-engine-style wheels on the larger shovels like these, looks like Bucyrus/Erie also had the track option on the big ones. I have not seen much in the way of patents on this style, assume that they all worked off of existing art by that time. The smaller shovels were commonly track mounted. Marion shipped a lot of the track conversion kits for the large rail-mounted shovels starting in 1923, so I assume that the large scale track technology was common by then.

Bucyrus and Erie merged in 1927, then in 1930 they merged with Ruston in UK, but it looks like both the BE and BR names were used for many more decades. So, this shovel must be from 1927-on, any idea which model? Looks like a electric generator on the roof at the back end, just like I've seen on locomotives of the time. Where did you find this picture?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on November 13, 2017, 09:05:23 PM
Chris, that pic was in a story by local TV chan. 5 about divers discovering stuff in the bottom of a local lake. Apparently it was dug out or something and they used a steam shovel. I don't know if the pic is of 'the' shovel or is just a stock image.

The pic is one of many in a photo essay and I can't extract a link. Here's the main page:

http://www.king5.com/

It's about half way down in an area called "Trending Videos".

Not much, just a neat pic.

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 13, 2017, 09:47:14 PM
Chris, that pic was in a story by local TV chan. 5 about divers discovering stuff in the bottom of a local lake. Apparently it was dug out or something and they used a steam shovel. I don't know if the pic is of 'the' shovel or is just a stock image.

The pic is one of many in a photo essay and I can't extract a link. Here's the main page:

http://www.king5.com/ (http://www.king5.com/)

It's about half way down in an area called "Trending Videos".

Not much, just a neat pic.

Pete
That one is going to need a big bucket of soapy water and some serious elbow grease!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 15, 2017, 12:28:29 PM
FINALLY! Today is the day I get access to the Marion 91 shovel outside the quarry!


Cameras charged,check
Tape measure, check
Pad/pen, check
Led light panels, check
Ready!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Stuart on November 15, 2017, 12:46:43 PM
Chris

You forgot the most important item

Yourself  :stir:


Have a good information gathering exercise

Stuart
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 15, 2017, 01:05:37 PM
Chris

You forgot the most important item

Yourself  :stir:


Have a good information gathering exercise

Stuart
Rats! Always forgetting something!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 15, 2017, 11:28:13 PM
Finally got my chance at close-up inspection of the Marion 91 shovel today, was there alongside a pair of National Parks Service guys from the SteamTown facility in Pennsylvania, who were there to advise the historical society on the best steps to take to stabilize what is there and how to get it dressed up again and preserved for another generation. Turns out the society is already taking some great steps, they have the brush cleared away, a new parking area and viewing area off the side of the road with a nice wrought iron fence, and are getting signage explaining the machine and what it did made up.
The NPS guys were very helpful on steps to take, what materials to use, and it turns out the metal on it is in better shape than we thought, the roof, sides, machinery, and framework is in great shape with just surface rust, while the floors (sheet steel or iron of some sort) are pretty bad, lots of holes right through, but that is easy to patch over. The quarry had sprayed most of it with some sort of tar, bitumin, something like that, when they parked it 50+ years ago, most of which is wearing off now, but it preserved it for a very long time.
Sounds like they are getting some momentum behind dressing it up some more, and getting more publicity behind it to raise funds. I will be donating a copy of the blueprints for the machine once they are done, and have offered the use of the model any time they want it for displays, publicity, whatever.

So, I spent the afternoon crawing around inside, under, outside the machine (did not go up on the roof or up the boom, not agile enough for that anymore), with the tape measure in one hand and the camera in the other, documenting the snot of everything I could see and reach with the tape measure (found its quicker to snap a pic of the measure and what it is hooked to than to write it all down, that comes later). The tracks were very interesting, with the end wheels shaped more like hollow donuts, and I traced all of the piping and control levers, which run both along the inside of the cieling and also under the floor. Most of the main dimensions for things are close to what I had estimated from the photos I had gotten before, but there are doubtless a number of things on the 3D model to be tweaked. One thing I am sure needs to change are the sizes and teeth count on the lower gears, those I had to guess at before. Really glad for a good digital SLR with a long zoom lens, wound up taking ONLY 884 pictures today...!

Boy, gonna sleep good tonight!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 15, 2017, 11:51:04 PM
Uploaded the pictures from the camera to the PC, spotted a couple that give you the flavor of things there...

Shot down INSIDE the bucket, I was not aware that the holders for the teeth at the front edge went all the way down the inside.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/cnybxm41z/DSC_6772a.jpg)

Tons of shots like this, detailing dimensions on the tracks, etc.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gkbntmc6v/DSC_6915a.jpg)
Shot up between the floor frames of the control linkages, including a few birds nests...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/g7k9nfehj/DSC_6864a.jpg)
More linkages, and also showing the conditions of the floor plates, which look like an old car that was left out behind the barn. Fortunately the beams and machinery are all solid, just the leftover tar on them.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rwo9bed5z/DSC_6906a.jpg)
Lots of measurements were taken inside - here is an overall view of the main hoist and slew engines and gear trains - and you thought YOUR model was crowded, this one is 15 pounds in a 5 pound bag - to walk down the sides, you need to lean on the tops of the guards over the gears! The chain drum in this shot is for the chain that goes around the turntable at the front, swinging the main boom from side to side. The ends of the chain are at the front of the main boom, this drum takes the middle of the chain in/out on the top/bottom.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ue00in9x3/DSC_6578a.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 16, 2017, 03:19:47 AM
Thanks for the preview Chris. Sounds like a nice productive day.  :ThumbsUp: So nice to hear that the "powers that be" are interested in preserving this steam shovel.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Alan Haisley on November 16, 2017, 04:46:33 PM

Chris,
In picture 2, is that bolt something like a tread tensioner?

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 16, 2017, 05:00:56 PM

Chris,
In picture 2, is that bolt something like a tread tensioner?
Yes - the rear axle on the tracks are fixed, the front ones are held in that square block with the bolt to push them forwards and tension the tracks. The pin above the 15" mark on the tape goes through a thick-walled  eye in the back end of the tensioning bolt.
The tracks have some interesting shapes, going to be fun to sketch all them out!

This morning I strted going through the photos, double-checking the measurements on things I had already modelled up. Most are good, I did find that the front and rear axles were a few inches out, have been correcting those positions. Also, I now have better tooth counts and diameters for the travel gears, need to change a couple, and also now know what the castings look like for the bearing blocks for the front travel gears (turns out they made one large block for two of the axles, I had modeled them as seperate ones). Still need to check a few dimensions on the engines. Once all the updates are done, I will start in on drawing up the track assemblies. It was a VERY worthwhile expedition, so glad I got the opportunity to get in and spend the day on it!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on November 16, 2017, 10:29:08 PM
Hi Chris,
Years back I had to take some evidence photos, we had some devices that were 1', 2' & 3' long. They were about 2" wide made of metal and marked with yellow stripes 1" wide. The one of the appropriate length was placed next to the item being shot along with a photo gray scale or colour card if shooting in colour. It apparently made scaling the  items easier then a tape measure which we also used taking written or tape recorded dimensions.
Regards,
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 16, 2017, 11:32:55 PM
Hi Chris,
Years back I had to take some evidence photos, we had some devices that were 1', 2' & 3' long. They were about 2" wide made of metal and marked with yellow stripes 1" wide. The one of the appropriate length was placed next to the item being shot along with a photo gray scale or colour card if shooting in colour. It apparently made scaling the  items easier then a tape measure which we also used taking written or tape recorded dimensions.
Regards,
Gerald.
some of the earlier photo sets I worked from on the shovel (taken by someone else about 10 years ago) did the same sort of thing - they put a surveyors stick in a lot of the photos (not enough!), which had a alternating pattern of yellow/red every foot, a diamond at every 6", and the last foot was broken down in inches. It made scaling easier, for sure, on shots take from a distance away of a large part.

The way I did these (and the ones last spring on the Lombard), was to hook the tape measure on the end of what I was measuring, take a shot of that, then take a closeup of the tape where it crossed the end of the part - that way I can get down to fraction of inch easily. It worked out much quicker than taking measurements and writing it all down, plus I am catching a lot of stuff on other parts in the background.

So far its working out very well - today I have been going through and updating dimensions and shapes to match the actual measurements I took yesterday for the ones where I had to guestimate from the older pictures. The axles moved a few inches, things like that, but the biggest change has been finding out the two front travel gear shafts were on one common casting block with a quite complex shape - just finishing up redrawing all those parts now.

Next up I think will be the track assemblies, now that I have lots of detailed photos and measurements, before the best I had were pics taken from 20 feet away, nowhere good enough! Or, maybe I'll redo the teeth on the front edge of the bucket, now that I have pictures of the inside - the teeth go all the way down the inside face, which I was not aware of before.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 17, 2017, 12:30:17 AM
Got a lot done today, revising some of the details of sizes and positions of axles, gears, some beams to match the measurements I took yesterday on the real machine. Added the round-cornered holes in the cross beams to match the real thing. The one part that needed a major rework was the travel gear support section, which is below the floor towards the front of the machine, since I found out that the two final axles are supported by one large casting block. Here is a screen capture showing that new block, with the new positions of those gears closer to the centerline. Amazing how much a few measurements can fix a lot of guesswork!

(https://s5.postimg.cc/o2cfizrxj/Marion_91_v80.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 17, 2017, 02:08:29 PM
Okay, all you boiler experts out there: on the boiler backhead in the Marion there are a number of these gizmos:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ktc916md3/DSC_6452a.jpg)
They appear to be a removeable, or at least loosenable, plug into the water jacket around the firebox area. There were a number of them, some down at floor level, others up higher.

Anyone know what they were used for? Inspection? Cleanout? Putting in a potato to boil??
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on November 17, 2017, 04:18:46 PM
They're clean-outs, Chris. There should be quite a few...

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on November 17, 2017, 08:32:41 PM
Hi Chris,
 Looks like you had a fun day at the “Shovel”. Sounds like the guys are real keen on preserving her for the future which is nice!

Luckily down this way  :popcorn: planting is in full swing, I’ve found some extra field so should just about have enuff to get thru this coming year.... :lolb:

On the CAD front, most impressed! Makes my feeble attempts at 2D look pretty average!

Like Pete said, those are inspection or hand ports to check the internals of the boiler, when they get big enuff to be able to get a man, err person, thru they are man holes, errr person holes. There  is a ring, for strengthening on the outside of the boiler shell, to compensate for the hole. The holes are as per the picture elliptical, the stud in the middle. The brace is call a strong back, well we’re i come from,  1 on the small ports & 2 on man holes. In industry the ring will usually have a hole drilled thru it at a low point, before it’s attached to the boiler! This becomes a tell tale for any issues under the ring while in service.

Cheers Kerrin

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 17, 2017, 09:21:21 PM
Thanks for the info on the inspection ports! I figured it might be something like that, but have not seen them before (probably were there on some of the locos, but all the other piping and valves obscured them, on this boiler all the other brass/bronze gauges and valves were stolen years ago so the ports stand out more). On this boiler there are 6 of them on the backhead, did not see any elsewhere. These are fairly small, the plug is only about 2-1/2" across, though one near the top is another inch wider.

Do they taper out wider on the inside, so the pressure of steam presses them in place, or do they come out  completely? Seems like if they go into the boiler farther when unscrewed, it would be just asking for one to drop off inside?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 17, 2017, 09:33:55 PM
I have gone through most of the measurements relating to the parts of the shovel that I had already 3D modeled up, and made the corrections where needed (mostly minor, big ones on the travel gear holders). Still a few changes to make to the bucket teeth, then on to new parts again.

Here are some current screen grabs of the 3D model, with and without the cab walls showing. One thing I have not shown till now is the two cylinders for the main hoist, they are the ones laying down on either side of the gear train, they act on a common shaft as a two-cylinder engine. Its the largest one on the shovel, 12" bore by 16" stroke, where the slew/crowd engines are 8 by 8. The steering engine looks to be a smaller version of the slew engine, have not worked out its size yet - it is the only one that Marion's catalog does not mention since it was added later on.

Overall view:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/c8nio1jnr/Marion_91_v83.jpg)

with cab removed:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/a435mx7qf/Marion_91_v83a.jpg)

closer view:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/435gpv89j/Marion_91_v83b.jpg)

from underneath, quite a lot packed in:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/67ptqxugn/Marion_91_v83c.jpg)

left side, can see the cluth mechanism on the hoist drum gear:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xib4yuhxz/Marion_91_v83e.jpg)

and the boom (at this size the chain around the turntable at the base of the boom pixelates and looks odd - it is a 5"x7" chain)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fs9gdtrif/Marion_91_v83d.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 17, 2017, 09:49:53 PM
Also - just got copies of the photos they took of the shovel from a camera drone, here is an angle you don't see very often (unless you are a seagull looking for somewhere to mess)   :Lol:
I never noticed that hatch to the roof near the back end before, from the inside it just looked like a patch panel.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on November 17, 2017, 09:56:12 PM
Hi Chris,
 They are the same shape as the hole but bigger!, same curve as the boiler shell ( but not by tooo much!, probably about maybe an inch if that for this size) Hope that makes sense. They have a gasket on the side that pulls up against the inside face of the boiler, indays gone by it was asbestos,  the stud is used as a handle to get it in & out & always looks way to long....I guess trial & error has shown that if you make it too short you end up having to figure out how to retrevive it!
They usually are placed for inspection of problem areas of the boiler, as you pointed out, low down around the fire box to allow cleaning / inspection of the foundation ring, and it sounds like over the top of the fire box. Somewhere on the barrel should be a manhole, vertical boilers giving limited access to check out the tubes, locos to above the tubes. Our  x club traction, full size ,engine had this in the smoke box, I have managed to squeeze thru it, don’t think I could now! The boilers were I used to work had them in the end domes
The elliptical shape allows it to go thru the smaller diameter(?),  where as a round one wouldn’t fit!

When I did my steam tickets, part of the course was drafting, on paper, & we had to do the set out & drawings for manholes, can’t quite remember how now but CAD should make it easy!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on November 17, 2017, 09:59:28 PM
Hi Chris,
The drone shoot is cool! Just need to get the tips of some shoes in it & it would look like the model to come!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 17, 2017, 10:14:14 PM
Hi Chris,
 They are the same shape as the hole but bigger!, same curve as the boiler shell ( but not by tooo much!, probably about maybe an inch if that for this size) Hope that makes sense. They have a gasket on the side that pulls up against the inside face of the boiler, indays gone by it was asbestos,  the stud is used as a handle to get it in & out & always looks way to long....I guess trial & error has shown that if you make it too short you end up having to figure out how to retrevive it!
They usually are placed for inspection of problem areas of the boiler, as you pointed out, low down around the fire box to allow cleaning / inspection of the foundation ring, and it sounds like over the top of the fire box. Somewhere on the barrel should be a manhole, vertical boilers giving limited access to check out the tubes, locos to above the tubes. Our  x club traction, full size ,engine had this in the smoke box, I have managed to squeeze thru it, don’t think I could now! The boilers were I used to work had them in the end domes
The elliptical shape allows it to go thru the smaller diameter(?),  where as a round one wouldn’t fit!

When I did my steam tickets, part of the course was drafting, on paper, & we had to do the set out & drawings for manholes, can’t quite remember how now but CAD should make it easy!

Cheers Kerrin
So when the bolt is released, the plug would be able to move INTO the boiler, but not be pulled out? These are on the flat face of the backhead, so there is no curvature to them. I'm confused about where the gassket would be, and is the plug a parallel-sided thing or tapered? 
 :headscratch:

I could not find any kind of manhole - this boiler is pretty small, and the fire tubes take up almost all the space inside. The firebox would be accessible from underneath with the grates removed. The SteamTown guys were a little surprised at how small the boiler is, its 5' diameter, and the whole thing, including the firebox and smokebox, is only 15' long. It has about 150 2" firetubes. With the small amount of water in relation to that, it probably could heat up quickly, and was probably a coal-hungry beast.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 17, 2017, 10:17:31 PM
Hi Chris,
The drone shoot is cool! Just need to get the tips of some shoes in it & it would look like the model to come!

Cheers Kerrin
How about this?!   :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on November 17, 2017, 11:25:05 PM
Chris, the clean-outs/manholes are oval so that they can be turned and tilted to remove them...

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 18, 2017, 12:09:16 AM
Chris, the clean-outs/manholes are oval so that they can be turned and tilted to remove them...

Pete
Ah, gotcha!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on November 18, 2017, 07:54:38 AM
Hi Chris,
 Arr crap! Teach me to be in a hurry & typing! Still Pete put you right. Sorry about the curve too.....should have read your info better, no curve required on a flat side.
Pity this hadn’t come up a couple of weeks back as I could have got some pictures of the club boiler when it had its annual check.
Thanks for the extra info on the boiler, it’s about the same size as a traction engine so would of thought that there would of been some access to the inside.

Love the feet in the picture...thanks for that!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on November 18, 2017, 08:17:07 AM
That's a great picture Chris! :Lol:
The only thing th at gives it away is that the feet have no shadow!  :stickpoke:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 18, 2017, 04:14:36 PM
Hi Chris,
 Arr crap! Teach me to be in a hurry & typing! Still Pete put you right. Sorry about the curve too.....should have read your info better, no curve required on a flat side.
Pity this hadn’t come up a couple of weeks back as I could have got some pictures of the club boiler when it had its annual check.
Thanks for the extra info on the boiler, it’s about the same size as a traction engine so would of thought that there would of been some access to the inside.

Love the feet in the picture...thanks for that!

Cheers Kerrin
I did some more studying of the photos, and you are right about the shape, the plates are oval, 3-1/2" wide by approx 2-1/2" tall. Some searching online I found this video showing how to install a modern one - the one they are using is much larger, but the pricipal is the same:
V-2G1qfehIk
For the size of the boiler - interesting that it would be that small for such large main engines (twin 12x16 cylinders on hoist, twin 8x8 on both the swing and crowd engines), but they are not all running continuously which helps the steam consumption.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: b.lindsey on November 18, 2017, 04:18:33 PM
Still reading along Chris. Looks like there is a lot of gear cutting in your future on this one !!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on November 18, 2017, 04:40:03 PM
They didn't show what you have to do when a plate does drop down, as he said it ruins you day and maybe the one for the guy on the next shift too.
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 18, 2017, 05:27:14 PM
They didn't show what you have to do when a plate does drop down, as he said it ruins you day and maybe the one for the guy on the next shift too.
Gerald.
Keep some spares hidden in your toolbox so no one knows you dropped one?!
Bet if your hand gets stuck in that little hole, the next shift will be merciless!   :paranoia:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 18, 2017, 05:30:37 PM
Still reading along Chris. Looks like there is a lot of gear cutting in your future on this one !!

Bill
Yeah, quite a few gears, and 6 times as many spokes!   :insane:   

Looks like they only used a couple of tooth sizes, so not too many cutters needed anyway. It was easy to see the machine had a lot of use, the teeth on the gears nearer the engines showed quite a bit of wear. On the front of the frame, you could see the dents from all the times the bucket whacked into the corner of the frame, and the A-frame has some dings from the main boom over-rotating a few times.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on November 18, 2017, 07:24:43 PM
Wow what a lovely project..something to get your teeth into !!! can't wait to see and hear it working !! :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 18, 2017, 07:27:46 PM
Wow what a lovely project..something to get your teeth into !!! can't wait to see and hear it working !! :popcorn:
Thanks Willy! I'm very excited about this one. Going to be quite a while before it is done, I am figuring this to be a multi-year project, though the individual engines will likely be running much sooner. Better plant more popcorn!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 18, 2017, 07:31:49 PM
knocking off a few of the small details I learned about while at the shovel this week, here is the small pulley that holds the line running from the dipper bucket bottom lid release back to the turntable - the operator would pull the rope to drop the bottom of the bucket and dump the dirt/rock/telemarketer/whatever...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/z9h4wl7yv/Turntable_And_Front_Track_v77.jpg)
and also there is a counterweight on the main hoist gear, to balance the weight of the steam opererated clutch mechanism:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3pr3mnu4n/Gear_Train_v84.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 18, 2017, 08:29:09 PM
and the logo on the front track supports
(https://s5.postimg.cc/q5ipwn6jb/Turntable_And_Front_Track_v78.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on November 19, 2017, 01:45:01 AM
The Logo... absolutely wonderful!!  And model makers for generations will curse you for the high detail level...

 :lolb: :lolb:

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 19, 2017, 01:51:26 AM
The Logo... absolutely wonderful!!  And model makers for generations will curse you for the high detail level...

 :lolb: :lolb:

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Pete


 :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 19, 2017, 03:01:35 AM
Chris....... it looks to me that a lot of pieces, like the piece with the logo, could be milled out of bar stock with a CNC mill (not that I know much about CNC).  :naughty:

It's sure nice that you got the chance to get up close and personal with the Marion.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 19, 2017, 03:09:40 AM
Chris....... it looks to me that a lot of pieces, like the piece with the logo, could be milled out of bar stock with a CNC mill (not that I know much about CNC).  :naughty:

It's sure nice that you got the chance to get up close and personal with the Marion.

Jim
I'm sure cnc could make them letters, but I don't have cnc. I might have strips 3d printed and lay them in, or depending on how large the letters are might hand relief cut them or they could be photo etched. I'd let the elves carve them, but their spelling is atrocious!

For the shapes of the parts,may solder them up, or make some milling jigs. Should be a very interesting build!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: fumopuc on November 19, 2017, 09:52:20 AM
Not tested by myself, but some colleges in Germany have used this
https://www.amazon.de/Rapunzel-Buchstaben-Suppennudeln-Semola-bunt-250/dp/B003AMEI6C/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1511084886&sr=8-4&keywords=buchstabennudeln
It should work very well if coated with paint or powder.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: wagnmkr on November 19, 2017, 12:12:06 PM
Chris, any idea yet on how tall the letters will be?

Tom
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 19, 2017, 01:41:26 PM
Not tested by myself, but some colleges in Germany have used this
https://www.amazon.de/Rapunzel-Buchstaben-Suppennudeln-Semola-bunt-250/dp/B003AMEI6C/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1511084886&sr=8-4&keywords=buchstabennudeln (https://www.amazon.de/Rapunzel-Buchstaben-Suppennudeln-Semola-bunt-250/dp/B003AMEI6C/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1511084886&sr=8-4&keywords=buchstabennudeln)
It should work very well if coated with paint or powder.
But then my shop elves would keep eating the engine!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 19, 2017, 01:46:13 PM
Chris, any idea yet on how tall the letters will be?

Tom
I have not settled on a scale yet, but they will be fairly small. The letters on the steam chest lids, the boiler doors, and the patent plates are even smaller, so I will probably end up ordering a set of photoetched plates like I got for the boiler plate on the front of the Lombard, that was very well done and a reasonable price. They take customer supplied artwork, so I can get them exactly as needed.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 19, 2017, 05:29:30 PM
I was learning how the joint/animation system in Fusion360 works, and put together a sequence of frames that show the movements for digging a bucket full, then put those through an animated-gif app. Here is the result, it seems to play correctly on the website, at least in the preview:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4sfitovfb/Marion_Animation.gif)
The individual frames are a starting point for some of the signage at the shovel...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: fumopuc on November 19, 2017, 05:36:30 PM
Great show, well done.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 19, 2017, 08:02:10 PM
This afternoon I started taking measurements from the real track plates, and drawing them up in 3D. What a mind-bender these are turning out to be, they are castings with hollow areas and ribs on the back side, with protrusions for the hinge pins, and the tops are tapered at the sides. Here is a picture of the back side of the real thing:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7621yc4c7/DSC_6364a.jpg)
Quite a few features to it - it fits over a tapered rim of the guide wheel, and the same notch rides on an extruded rail along the straight sections of the track frame. The angled portions are used by the rear guide wheel to drive the track - it has sections of the wheel that stick out between the angled parts of each track.

And here the sketches so far in Fusion. Normally I just do a single-plane sketch and extrude from that, but this time I think it will be a combination of extrusions from each view, along with some extrusions being used to cut away the parts from the other views, like a router blade would do.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kygguhief/Track_Assemblies_v12.jpg)
I think I've gotten all the shapes I need, going to let the brain cool off and come back to this tomorrow - have our monthly RC submarine run at the pool tonight!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 20, 2017, 10:56:40 PM
Wow. What a brain-bender the track plate turned out to be! It is quite a complex cast shape, and even with about 15 photos with measurements that I took, it was still a bunch of trial-and-error to get it right since I could not take a plate out to look at it directly from underneath.

I spent the day drawing up three sketches in Fusion, and creating a set of 'moulds' for it to use to cut away the block I created for the track, much in the way it would have been cast. It definitely was quicker in the long run since I could keep going back and tweaking the sketches, letting the application re-apply the extrusions/cuts for me, till it came out right.

Here are some screen grabs of the track piece:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/m3xhw8non/Track_Assemblies_v21a.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/sudz5oik7/Track_Assemblies_v21b.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/voh4j45av/Track_Assemblies_v21c.jpg)

Hey, Shop-Elves, yeah, you there, with the pointy hat! Where did you put my chocolate chip cookies! I need some!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 21, 2017, 03:15:12 AM
Some even more exciting news than getting the track plate design working (at least for me). The gentleman who cast the replacement boiler front numberplate for the Lombard Hauler at the museum in Maine got a copy of it cast for me in bronze, and its on its way to me. Full size copy, from the same pattern he made for the original.


 :whoohoo:    :pinkelephant:    :cartwheel:


Pics when it arrives..
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on November 21, 2017, 03:18:16 AM
That is pretty cool, Chris!
Something to be excited about for sure!  ;D
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on November 21, 2017, 04:00:40 AM
You betcha there'd better be lots of pictures!

Man, that's special.

Pete'
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 21, 2017, 08:30:05 PM
Biggining to take on its final look - got the track sets drawn up for the right side of the shovel, still need to make the track frames and road wheels for them.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/z3mqfdy07/Marion_91_v88.jpg)
The front tracks bolt on where the original wide-stance jacks were, to stabilize the machine as the main boom swings to the side. The rear tracks are set narrow, on the swivel that originally held the railroad wheel truck. The rear set is turned side to side by the steering engine and worm gear at the back, the front set is driven by the hoist engine when a second clutch is engaged.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on November 21, 2017, 11:58:29 PM
Chris,
Do the front tracks turn at all? Or do they stay fixed and only the rear tracks turn to steer the crane?
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 22, 2017, 12:12:09 AM
Chris,
Do the front tracks turn at all? Or do they stay fixed and only the rear tracks turn to steer the crane?
Kim
The front tracks are fixed at straight ahead, and move together (no differential), the rear tracks do the steering. The rear tracks freewheel, the fronts are driven. On the original rail trucks, the wheels at both ends ran off a chain drive, for the tracks it's geared to drive shafts. Its a much simpler mechanism than machines eith one pair of tracks that are individually controllable.

Both front and rear tracks can pitch forward and back on their axles as they go over bumps, but there is no spring suspension, so a very rough ride!

One thing that threw me at first when measuring was the presence of a number of crude repairs to the left front track and its support frame. There is also evidence of some major repairs to the front of the main frame, its possible that two of these shovels were combined to get one working one. There was a second one at this quarry, nothing known of what happened to it.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on November 22, 2017, 12:37:53 AM
Thanks Chris, I believe I follow now.

And, you're trying to document the original configuration of a cobbled-together Frankenstein machine!  That's got to make things a little more difficult!

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 22, 2017, 12:55:07 AM
Thanks Chris, I believe I follow now.

And, you're trying to document the original configuration of a cobbled-together Frankenstein machine!  That's got to make things a little more difficult!

Kim
At least they used two identical machines, so its not a ChevroFordUick!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steam Haulage on November 22, 2017, 08:44:04 AM
Hi Chris,

As you know already I have been inspired by your recent work on the very successful Lombard and now the Marion Shovel.

Your 3D drawings in Fusion 360 give a great example of what can be achieved with realistic and detailed illustrations of the workings of these rather complex machines. I am still working with my thoughts on Ruston-Bucyrus Shovels which in many ways are similar to Marion's products.

It seems that much of the original information on the R-B designs has been lost along with those of Ruston & Hornsby as a result of the takeovers by English Electric and then Siemens, neither of which were likely to have an interest in shovels. However I am still collecting whatever I can find, including various sources which have found their way to the Antipodes.

I have been a user of Autodesk Inventor for some time and I want to compare the results from that very expensive programme with your work with the free ( for hobbyists) Fusion 360 which originates from the same software house.  I wonder whether Inventor which has all sorts of bells and whistles but was 'invented' some years ago would perform as well as Fusion 360 which surely must have more up-to-date origins. :headscratch:

Sorry to hijack your thread.
Jerry
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 22, 2017, 01:11:00 PM
Hi Chris,

As you know already I have been inspired by your recent work on the very successful Lombard and now the Marion Shovel.

Your 3D drawings in Fusion 360 give a great example of what can be achieved with realistic and detailed illustrations of the workings of these rather complex machines. I am still working with my thoughts on Ruston-Bucyrus Shovels which in many ways are similar to Marion's products.

It seems that much of the original information on the R-B designs has been lost along with those of Ruston & Hornsby as a result of the takeovers by English Electric and then Siemens, neither of which were likely to have an interest in shovels. However I am still collecting whatever I can find, including various sources which have found their way to the Antipodes.

I have been a user of Autodesk Inventor for some time and I want to compare the results from that very expensive programme with your work with the free ( for hobbyists) Fusion 360 which originates from the same software house.  I wonder whether Inventor which has all sorts of bells and whistles but was 'invented' some years ago would perform as well as Fusion 360 which surely must have more up-to-date origins. :headscratch:

Sorry to hijack your thread.
Jerry
Hi Jerry!

Seems to be a common problem with the old equipment manufacturers - when they got bought, sold, re-sold, the documents and plans wound up at the dump along the way since the new owners didn't have any use or care for the old products, sometimes just wanted the company name. I've found a few copies of the old Marion catalogs online at some of the museums and libraries (the Carnegie Library has a big section of old trade catalogs). In those days the catalog was not just a short listing for each product, they spent page after page detailing how their product worked and differed from the others, they are a gold mine of details sometimes. Other than that, if you can find a museum or collector group who has a similar machine and make contact, you can get a lot of information. If it was not for the machine near me here, the best guess at the inner workings would have been from buying HO and O gauge model kits and studying them - sometimes they have a lot of details, but are also sometimes simplified down since they were often drawn from old photos.

Fusion is my first experience with 3D CAD applications, so I don't have any comparison to the others. I'm sure there is a lot of commonality in what they do, probably differences in how Fusion presents things since they started over with its development. Autodesk is still adding features to fusion on a regular basis, I am hoping they keep the hobbyist access to it once they consider it a mature product, it is a huge savings for an individual hobbyist with limited funding.

 :cheers:
Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 22, 2017, 04:03:06 PM
Another major milestone in the 3D model for the Marion, got the front track frames sketched and made:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/sdt82t6nr/Marion_91_v89.jpg)
I think that there are just four items remaining for the 3d model:
- rear track frames
- drive shafts for front tracks
- steering engine
- controls and linkages to engines/valves/clutches

Once those are done I can generate the paper plans for the full-size machine, then get started on scaling them down for the model!

Getting close to cutting metal!   :cartwheel:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 22, 2017, 06:41:34 PM
Are you planning to live long enough to make a model of this, or are you going to pass it on to your children and grandchildren----and maybe even your great grandchildren?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 22, 2017, 07:00:27 PM
Are you planning to live long enough to make a model of this, or are you going to pass it on to your children and grandchildren----and maybe even your great grandchildren?

 :ROFL:

Hi Brian,

Its definitely going to be a long term project, even by my standards (finished the Shay and Lombard builds in about a year each). I am figuring this one to be about 2 or 3 years, give or take a year - its a SLIGHT help that two of the four steam engines in it are identical, so that will save a few weeks!   :o

I love this kind of project - like you I really enjoy the build, and this one has LOTS of new shapes to figure out how to machine. I am hoping to take things up another notch in the level of detail, always learning new techniques. Given the size of the boiler, I'm not sure if this one will be practical to run on actual steam, or if it will rely on a compressed air line running in. The boiler on the real one  is fairly small compared to the ones on locomotives, and depending what scale I build (something around 1:16 is current guess) the boiler could be too small to run four engines, the main engines are quite large bore/stroke let alone the slew/crowd ones. The NPS guys were very surprised at the size of the boiler, but it obviously was enough for the real machine, it was used for over 40 years.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 22, 2017, 07:09:36 PM
This afternoon the casting arrived with the boiler front nameplate from the Lombard Log Hauler up in Maine - the gentleman who made the pattern and cast the one for the restoration of the real one kindly agreed to cast and sell me a bronze copy of it, came out pretty nice.
For size comparison, here is the one on the real machine (someone put a silly model in front of it!)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xnog8a13r/DSC_6035b.jpg)
and here are the spare ones I had photo-etched for the model:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9pfrt252v/IMG_1169.jpg)
And here is the casting he did for me, with the photo-etched ones in the lower left for scale, ready for some final cleanup and painting:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4e0v8cyfr/IMG_1170.jpg)
The back has the name of the museum, nice touch:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6il89fscn/IMG_1172.jpg)
So, after some casting fondling (hope I don't have to send it to Jo for some professional casting-fondling time), I'll get the edges filed/sanded smooth where the gates were, get it wire brushed clean and painted. Should look wonderful with the model!

 :cartwheel:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: b.lindsey on November 22, 2017, 07:35:26 PM
Very nice Chris, would it help to flycut the top of the letters to make them stand out more?

Bill
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 22, 2017, 07:57:14 PM
Very nice Chris, would it help to flycut the top of the letters to make them stand out more?

Bill
Hmmm, maybe.... the lug on the back is tapered slightly, but I could drill/tap it for a better hold. I'll probably start with some sanding and see what it looks like. The original was painted black with the tops of the rings/letters painted gold, have not decided whether to do the same or to leave it bronze. Though, now that you mention it, if the relieved surfaces are still the rough, and the tops taken smooth and polished, the bronze color would pop... Could just clear lacquer it to keep it shiny...
 :thinking:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 22, 2017, 10:01:57 PM
Rear track frames now done too - after making the ones for the front, naturally the second (similar) set went quicker.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ovqexj2fb/Track_Assemblies_v63.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on November 22, 2017, 11:06:16 PM
That nameplate casting looks great, Chris!  That's a big hunk of bronze!
Can't wait to see how you finish it.  I'm voting for black background and polish up the letters - I think that would look very sharp!  But its your casting, and you get the only vote that counts  ;)

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 23, 2017, 02:27:56 AM
I was looking at the photos and measurements of the steering engine, and it looks like I got a break, it appears to be identical to the slew and crowd engines, just scaled down by a third and put on a vertical mounting bracket. So, that will save a lot of drawing time, just need to scale a copy and draw the new bracket and gear covers. Won't save much time actually building it, but that's fine.

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 23, 2017, 02:43:17 AM
That nameplate casting looks great, Chris!  That's a big hunk of bronze!
Can't wait to see how you finish it.  I'm voting for black background and polish up the letters - I think that would look very sharp!  But its your casting, and you get the only vote that counts  ;)

Kim
I figure that the whole thing needs a good wire brushing to remove the sand residue,  the outer rings and tops of the letters will get filed and sanded smooth, and there are some of the inner edges that need some detailing. The background will stay rough as cast. Then probably a soak in citric acid to brighten it all up and clean off any oils. At that point I will decide whether to paint it black with gold tops like the original, or give it a clear lacquer coat, which could look really nice, have to see what the bronze comes up like. Either way, it's a great piece.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Stuart on November 23, 2017, 07:36:12 AM
Chris
Danger will Robinson

Unless your citric is clean /new it could plate it pink ( copper in the acid )
Likewise if that cast has some free copper ions it will do the same

Test it first on the spru

I recon the build will take about 2 years

My loco builds for full scale in 5 inch gauge was 5 to 6 years , one guy at the club took 21 for his

Great work with f360
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 23, 2017, 01:33:09 PM
Chris
Danger will Robinson

Unless your citric is clean /new it could plate it pink ( copper in the acid )
Likewise if that cast has some free copper ions it will do the same

Test it first on the spru

I recon the build will take about 2 years

My loco builds for full scale in 5 inch gauge was 5 to 6 years , one guy at the club took 21 for his

Great work with f360
Oh yes, I've gotten the color cast from used pickle solution before! I have a fresh bag of citric acid crystals and will try it with that. If I don't like the color it comes out, paint is always the fallback.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 23, 2017, 04:00:56 PM
As I found yesterday, the steering engine is a scaled down version of the slew/crowd engines remounted on a vertical base, so it was quick to copy/scale in Fusion, here it is:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/s87jt5p7r/Steering_Engine_v4.jpg)
and where it sits next to the boiler backhead. The spur gear on the output shaft engages a larger gear that turns a shaft that runs up to the steering box in front of the rear tracks. That box has a worm gear to turn the motion 90 degrees across the frames, turning a really long acme threaded rod that moves the front bar of the rear track assembly back and forth, steering the machine.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/jpy3ozqgn/Marion_91_v91.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 24, 2017, 08:01:50 PM
Not going to be too much to show the next day or so, I've started sorting through all the pictures from up underneath the main frame, tracing which control lever goes to which control rod, and where that leads. Lots of clevises, control horns, counterwieghts, cobwebs, and birds nests to diagram. So far I have the dog clutch, throttles for hoist, crowd, and steering, and the hoist clutch figured out. Still need to trace the reversing link on the hoist, throttle for the swing engine, and the hoist brake linkages.

Lots of breaks for cookies and leftovers!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on November 24, 2017, 08:22:20 PM
Hello Chris,

All these 3-D drawings and details are incredible. Most impressive work on your part.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: J.L. on November 24, 2017, 08:27:41 PM
Hi Chris,

This work is beyond belief. Truly a labour of love.

You must have spent hours of research before even beginning to  physicallly represent the parts on the computer.

A most fascinating project to follow.  :ThumbsUp:

Cheers...John
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 24, 2017, 08:50:04 PM
Thanks John/Thomas!  I've been researching this shovel since last spring, digging (  :Lol: ) into old photos, videos, lots of time reading the patents from the Marion company and others (get lots of mechanism details that way). After making contact with the folks at the historical society I was able to get inside access to the surviving shovel near here, which filled in SO many details. I think I am within a week of finishing up the 3d drawing, and then can start generating the 2D blueprints from that.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 24, 2017, 11:07:27 PM
Okay, I am stumped on this one....

Tracing through the controls, matching them up with the levers up at the front of the cab, and there is a foot pedal through the floor that I can't think of a reason for!

Okay, here are the items needing control from the front:
1) main hoist throttle
2) main hoist clutch (to engage drum)
3) main hoist fwd/reverse control (stephenson link)
4) main hoist brake
5) swing engine throttle/fwd/reverse (all in one)
6) steering engine throttle/fwd/reverse (all in one)
7) crowd engine throttle/fwd/reverse (all in one) - this is out on the turntable, controlled by 2nd operator
8 ) travel shaft dog clutch (to engage tracks to hoist engine)

Silly website - I had to put a space after the '8' or it turned it into a smiley!

That makes 7 controls from the cab running back, one out on the turntable
Here is where those controls are:
1) Main hoist throttle lever, hanging from roof on right
2) main hoist clutch lever -up from right side of floor
3) main hoist fwd/rev lever - one of 3 levers in group on floor
4) main hoist brake lever - one of 3 levers in group on floor
5) swing engine throttle lever - one of 3 levers in group on floor
6) steering engine throttle lever, hanging from roof on left
7) crowd engine lever - out on turntable
8 ) travel shaft dog clutch - handle coming up through floor, pulled up and latched to engage

(silly website - I had to put a space after the '8' or it turned that one into a smiley!!)

Problem is, there is ALSO a pedal that is shaped like the brake pedal on a car, between the set of 3 levers and the single lever on the floor. The shaft from that pedal looks to go through the floor, and down between the frames, but it never comes out of that space anywhere that I can find in any of the photos....
 :headscratch:

 :thinking:

 :noidea:

I can't think of another function that would need another control, can any of you?? Don't think it had a horn or headlights, no radio or power windows...  If there was a steam whistle it was stolen, the pull for that would just have been a rope from the ceiling anyway.

What else would there be??   :help:

The boiler engineers would handle all the feedwater/oiling/fuel controls from the back, there is a lubricator system but that was automatic from the engines. Don't think there was a nitrous system...

Any thoughts? Whoever thinks of the reason for the pedal wins a bag of mint chocolate chip cookies (may be supplied as a recipe 'kit' if not in easy mailing distance).

They wouldn't do this 100+ years ago just to mess with my head, would they? Or would they...  :hellno:

 :shrug:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 24, 2017, 11:38:14 PM
Okay, I am stumped on this one....

Tracing through the controls, matching them up with the levers up at the front of the cab, and there is a foot pedal through the floor that I can't think of a reason for!

Okay, here are the items needing control from the front:
1) main hoist throttle
2) main hoist clutch (to engage drum)
3) main hoist fwd/reverse control (stephenson link)
4) main hoist brake
5) swing engine throttle/fwd/reverse (all in one)
6) steering engine throttle/fwd/reverse (all in one)
7) crowd engine throttle/fwd/reverse (all in one) - this is out on the turntable, controlled by 2nd operator
8 ) travel shaft dog clutch (to engage tracks to hoist engine)

Silly website - I had to put a space after the '8' or it turned it into a smiley!

That makes 7 controls from the cab running back, one out on the turntable
Here is where those controls are:
1) Main hoist throttle lever, hanging from roof on right
2) main hoist clutch lever -up from right side of floor
3) main hoist fwd/rev lever - one of 3 levers in group on floor
4) main hoist brake lever - one of 3 levers in group on floor
5) swing engine throttle lever - one of 3 levers in group on floor
6) steering engine throttle lever, hanging from roof on left
7) crowd engine lever - out on turntable
8 ) travel shaft dog clutch - handle coming up through floor, pulled up and latched to engage

(silly website - I had to put a space after the '8' or it turned that one into a smiley!!)

Problem is, there is ALSO a pedal that is shaped like the brake pedal on a car, between the set of 3 levers and the single lever on the floor. The shaft from that pedal looks to go through the floor, and down between the frames, but it never comes out of that space anywhere that I can find in any of the photos....
 :headscratch:

 :thinking:

 :noidea:

I can't think of another function that would need another control, can any of you?? Don't think it had a horn or headlights, no radio or power windows...  If there was a steam whistle it was stolen, the pull for that would just have been a rope from the ceiling anyway.

What else would there be??   :help:

The boiler engineers would handle all the feedwater/oiling/fuel controls from the back, there is a lubricator system but that was automatic from the engines. Don't think there was a nitrous system...

Any thoughts? Whoever thinks of the reason for the pedal wins a bag of mint chocolate chip cookies (may be supplied as a recipe 'kit' if not in easy mailing distance).

They wouldn't do this 100+ years ago just to mess with my head, would they? Or would they...  :hellno:

 :shrug:

I'm thinking that the pedal was a quick release for the "stitterstat"...................well probably not!  :shrug:

OK....... I wonder if it could of connected up with one of the levers and done the same thing as the lever when the operator ran out of hands?

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 24, 2017, 11:44:55 PM
Okay, I am stumped on this one....

Tracing through the controls, matching them up with the levers up at the front of the cab, and there is a foot pedal through the floor that I can't think of a reason for!

Okay, here are the items needing control from the front:
1) main hoist throttle
2) main hoist clutch (to engage drum)
3) main hoist fwd/reverse control (stephenson link)
4) main hoist brake
5) swing engine throttle/fwd/reverse (all in one)
6) steering engine throttle/fwd/reverse (all in one)
7) crowd engine throttle/fwd/reverse (all in one) - this is out on the turntable, controlled by 2nd operator
8 ) travel shaft dog clutch (to engage tracks to hoist engine)

Silly website - I had to put a space after the '8' or it turned it into a smiley!

That makes 7 controls from the cab running back, one out on the turntable
Here is where those controls are:
1) Main hoist throttle lever, hanging from roof on right
2) main hoist clutch lever -up from right side of floor
3) main hoist fwd/rev lever - one of 3 levers in group on floor
4) main hoist brake lever - one of 3 levers in group on floor
5) swing engine throttle lever - one of 3 levers in group on floor
6) steering engine throttle lever, hanging from roof on left
7) crowd engine lever - out on turntable
8 ) travel shaft dog clutch - handle coming up through floor, pulled up and latched to engage

(silly website - I had to put a space after the '8' or it turned that one into a smiley!!)

Problem is, there is ALSO a pedal that is shaped like the brake pedal on a car, between the set of 3 levers and the single lever on the floor. The shaft from that pedal looks to go through the floor, and down between the frames, but it never comes out of that space anywhere that I can find in any of the photos....
 :headscratch:

 :thinking:

 :noidea:

I can't think of another function that would need another control, can any of you?? Don't think it had a horn or headlights, no radio or power windows...  If there was a steam whistle it was stolen, the pull for that would just have been a rope from the ceiling anyway.

What else would there be??   :help:

The boiler engineers would handle all the feedwater/oiling/fuel controls from the back, there is a lubricator system but that was automatic from the engines. Don't think there was a nitrous system...

Any thoughts? Whoever thinks of the reason for the pedal wins a bag of mint chocolate chip cookies (may be supplied as a recipe 'kit' if not in easy mailing distance).

They wouldn't do this 100+ years ago just to mess with my head, would they? Or would they...  :hellno:

 :shrug:

I'm thinking that the pedal was a quick release for the "stitterstat"...................well probably not!  :shrug:

OK....... I wonder if it could of connected up with one of the levers and done the same thing as the lever when the operator ran out of hands?

Jim
Don't think so, since it's lever goes on past into another chamber, and the other levers  are driven horizontally, but maybe there is another bell crank down there? I'll mark that as a maybe, pending more info. Hmmm...


This is payback for me thinking that I had all the photos I needed! I guess 844 was one shy of what was needed! Fortunately the director out there said I could borrow the key to the gate if I needed to get back in.


Any other ideas, anyone?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: RJH on November 24, 2017, 11:48:49 PM
How about a control to open the door on the bucket?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 24, 2017, 11:55:11 PM
How about a control to open the door on the bucket?
That's done by a rope coming back from the bucket latch  through a pulley on the main boom, and tied off at the turntable. The second operator on the turntable controlled the crowd engine and pulled the rope to drop the bucket door. It must have needed some close coordination and skill from the two operators!


 :thinking:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on November 25, 2017, 12:51:37 AM
Is there any sort of "parking brake" for the shovel when not operating?  Possibly to release a latch or pawl.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 25, 2017, 12:58:36 AM
Is there any sort of "parking brake" for the shovel when not operating?  Possibly to release a latch or pawl.
Hmm. Not that I know of, but it would be bad to come back to the quarry Monday morning and see it had rolled into the bottom of the pit!


The location of the pedal is about 12 feet in front of the travel shaft, should be easy to spot a link, will double check that in case you are right.


Could it be a brake pedal left over from when it was on railroad trucks? Those were usually screw actuated from a handwheel though.


Hmmm, a 110,000 pound steam shovel doing a parking brake turn!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 25, 2017, 01:54:17 PM
Is there any sort of "parking brake" for the shovel when not operating?  Possibly to release a latch or pawl.
Hmm. Not that I know of, but it would be bad to come back to the quarry Monday morning and see it had rolled into the bottom of the pit!


The location of the pedal is about 12 feet in front of the travel shaft, should be easy to spot a link, will double check that in case you are right.


Could it be a brake pedal left over from when it was on railroad trucks? Those were usually screw actuated from a handwheel though.


Hmmm, a 110,000 pound steam shovel doing a parking brake turn!
Hi Kvom - took a look through the pictures, and there is nothing leading down to the travel shaft or gears, so it it not some sort of brake, unless it is left over from the previous railroad trucks.

Jim's idea of a latch for one of the other levers is still a possibility.

I've put in a request to borrow the key and get back in for some more pictures in that area - I have ones close to right, but there are other things blocking the one key spot I need to see. Sigh... I need to go see the steam shovel again, so sad!   ::)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on November 25, 2017, 06:19:17 PM
Is it possible that it is a brake set/release that has to be depressed when the leaver is moved something like the clutch on a manual gearshift?
Ps If you find me on Facebook I posted my recipe for shortbread.
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 25, 2017, 07:32:05 PM
Is it possible that it is a brake set/release that has to be depressed when the leaver is moved something like the clutch on a manual gearshift?
Ps If you find me on Facebook I posted my recipe for shortbread.
Gerald.
Its possible. One of the other levers has the release lever on the handle part, which engages a notched rail at the bottom, but its possible that broke on one of the other levers and the pedal was added.
I heard back from the director, and I'll be able to borrow the key and head out there tomorrow or monday and get more pictures to know for sure - going to take a bunch of pictures up underneath that frame bay! Also, I could use a couple more of the hoist drum brake band levers, that did not come out well from the first trip.

Will let you guys know!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 25, 2017, 09:34:48 PM
Is it possible that it is a brake set/release that has to be depressed when the leaver is moved something like the clutch on a manual gearshift?
Ps If you find me on Facebook I posted my recipe for shortbread.
Gerald.
Its possible. One of the other levers has the release lever on the handle part, which engages a notched rail at the bottom, but its possible that broke on one of the other levers and the pedal was added.
I heard back from the director, and I'll be able to borrow the key and head out there tomorrow or monday and get more pictures to know for sure - going to take a bunch of pictures up underneath that frame bay! Also, I could use a couple more of the hoist drum brake band levers, that did not come out well from the first trip.

Will let you guys know!

I can almost taste those cookies already!  :LickLips:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 25, 2017, 10:33:02 PM
Is it possible that it is a brake set/release that has to be depressed when the leaver is moved something like the clutch on a manual gearshift?
Ps If you find me on Facebook I posted my recipe for shortbread.
Gerald.
Its possible. One of the other levers has the release lever on the handle part, which engages a notched rail at the bottom, but its possible that broke on one of the other levers and the pedal was added.
I heard back from the director, and I'll be able to borrow the key and head out there tomorrow or monday and get more pictures to know for sure - going to take a bunch of pictures up underneath that frame bay! Also, I could use a couple more of the hoist drum brake band levers, that did not come out well from the first trip.

Will let you guys know!

I can almost taste those cookies already!  :LickLips:

Jim
Well, mine MAY be on thier way to someone Monday afternoon. Or not, depending on what I find out at lunchtime when I get back in to see what is what! Hows that old saying go, Dont count your cookies before they are baked. Or hatched. Something like that...  :Lol:

In the meantime, we can go check Gerald's recipe - mine was posted over on the Lombard thread a while back, can repost it here if desired too.

I heard back, can borrow the key to the gate and go get more pictures and measurements Monday.   :whoohoo:

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 26, 2017, 08:04:43 PM
While waiting to get back out to the Marion tomorrow (  :cartwheel: ), I've been catching up on drawing the last parts in 3D that I know all the measurements for (steam lines to/from crowd engine, crowd engine levers, hand levers in cab).

One fitting at the boiler I can draw, but I am not really sure what it is for. This is what it looks like, a fitting with a rotary hinge that appears to have held a strap to another part that is no longer there:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/oq1iwrxpj/DSC_6459a.jpg)

The hole in the floor makes me think it is for a hinged flap to cover the cleanout in the floor, but that is a guess. The hole is below the firebox door - the firebox has its own door, hinged to open to the right, with a latch on the left. This fitting would not connect to the firebox door, but is it for a cleanout, for some sort of ramp or funnel shape to help scoop coal into the firebox? I have not seen this particular setup on locomotives. Any clues what its really for?

Thanks!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: MMan on November 26, 2017, 10:10:55 PM
Hi Chris,

Have you found how they do cylinder drain valves on all these engines yet? Have they automated in some way or is there a whole extra layer of controls for each engine?

just wondering if the operator was supposed to keep track of draining each engine everytime they used it.

All the best,

Martin.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 26, 2017, 10:41:25 PM
Hi Chris,

Have you found how they do cylinder drain valves on all these engines yet? Have they automated in some way or is there a whole extra layer of controls for each engine?

just wondering if the operator was supposed to keep track of draining each engine everytime they used it.

All the best,

Martin.
The main hoist cylinders have drain cocks at each end, connected with a control rod as usual on a loco  but those rods did not go up to the operator in the cab, must have been one of the boiler tenders that manually moved them. The vertical steering engine, next to the boiler backhead, also has the same setup. It's the crowd and slew engines that were hard to find drains on.
The slew engine had a bit too much raccoon, um,... exhaust, for me to dig under.
The crowd engine was in an angle where I did get pictures of the drains under the cylinders. There are remains of metal strips that may have been the actuating lever, but that bar is pretty rusted. So, drains are there on ghe cylinder ends, no drain for the internal passages though, that I can see.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 27, 2017, 02:54:39 AM
Chris.........do you happen to know if there's one of these shovels operational anywhere?  I'm imagining there isn't.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 27, 2017, 03:27:54 AM
Chris.........do you happen to know if there's one of these shovels operational anywhere?  I'm imagining there isn't.

Jim
For this particular model, the Marion 91, this is the best example. I understand that there is the remains of one in much worse shape in Panama. None others that I am aware of.


There ARE other similar sized shovels around, still running in museum and show settings. There are a number of great videos on YouTube of them. There is a site (don't know the address offhand) that has a list of survivors, mostly the smaller ones, a fair number of large ones.


I've seen some of the later gas and Diesel ones working at the Canandaigua steam pageant, never seen a steam one operate in person.


Except for the final controls, my 3d model is complete, and am going back to the shovel in the morning for last details. Then I will generate the plans from that at full scale measurements, should be a good stack of D size paper! After that I'll copy the project and scale it down. I've settled on a scale of 3/4":1', same as my Kozo Shay model, will make a great pair. The Lombard model is slightly larger at 1":1' scale. I considered 1:20, but think it will be better details at 1:16.


Online Metals has a sale starting tomorrow, may pick up the material for the larger frame rails and booms...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on November 27, 2017, 05:11:40 AM
Yeah, they're having a great sale Chris!  30% off!  I'd like to take advantage of it, but I'm just not ready to order for my new project.  They'll have a sale again sometime soon (I hope).

Good luck!  And may Santa bring you all the metal you need!

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 27, 2017, 01:43:10 PM
Yeah, they're having a great sale Chris!  30% off!  I'd like to take advantage of it, but I'm just not ready to order for my new project.  They'll have a sale again sometime soon (I hope).

Good luck!  And may Santa bring you all the metal you need!

Kim
Just put in an order that will cover the bulk of the project - a hefty bill, but this is a quite large model and the 30% sale saved me a LOT. Though the bill in cookies to get my UPS driver not to hate me (again, more) for ordering heavy packages is pretty steep too!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 27, 2017, 02:51:20 PM
Getting things out for the trip over to the shovel this morning, wanted to finish up the side-track on the Lombard nameplate that I got last week. Started out by getting it cleaned, detailed the letter edges, and decided that clear coating it would not set it off properly, and that I would paint it. Started with some flat black auto lacquer spray, then a coat of a slightly metallic gray, then went back over the tops of the letters with some faux-gold-leaf paint. It worked out very simple to get good edges by applying it with the side of a round tapered toothpick - no issues with even a fine brush dropping over an edge and getting some on the sides.
Here it is with the first few letters done:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rt7axg66v/IMG_1173.jpg)

and the rest finished off:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/66sagffc7/IMG_1174.jpg)
Came out looking great. Here it is next to the model - amazing how much smaller 1:12th is!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/427xfclfb/IMG_1175.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: paul gough on November 27, 2017, 03:24:58 PM
Hi Chris,Very satisfying 'objets d'art', reminders of a wonderful creative journey. Regards, Paul Gough.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on November 27, 2017, 04:14:37 PM
Very nice looking, Chris!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 27, 2017, 07:15:23 PM
All right, back from the steam shovel, and got a big mug of hot chocolate to warm up the fingers again (its COLD out there today). I started at the controls in the cab, and took a series of pictures running all the way back to the boiler, following each control rod.

It turns out that second pedal is for the brake band on the main hoist, I had thought it was one of the levers connected there. One of the levers in the group of 3 is actually connected to the drain cocks on the main hoist and slew engine cylinders! I didn't think they had a control up to the operator, but turns out they do, they are underneath the cylinders, which are only an inch off the floor, and the moving parts of the valves are just under the floor plates. Also, the crowd engine up on the main boom DOES have a drain set on the cylinders, but the rod is missing at the lower end where it comes down to the turntable, and parts of the rest are covered in vines.

Next step is to diagram which lever is which, since I am sure I will keep forgetting!

Also, I found out what that odd round-topped set of fittings is at the back of the boiler. Turns out they are not hinges like I thought, but holders for the bottom ends of levers (now missing). From underneath, I saw that there are rods running forward into the ash dump sluice, and connect to the bottoms of the fire grates in the firebox - they are the controls to move the grates for air control and to dump the ashes.

So, a couple of hours poking around, LOTS more photos (gotta love digital cameras), and a lot of tracing of control rods, I think that now I have all I need to finish up the details on the 3D model (including verifying that the left front track holder IS different due to some repair plates welded on the sides, and also that there are some non-matching track sections on the left side front tracks - they must have broken it and repaired it in the quarry).

I'll post the diagram of the controls when I get that done later...

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 28, 2017, 03:10:43 AM
Sounds like a really successful day Chris. I bet it was fun going to look at it today.........knowing just what your were looking for.  :)

Jim

PS: That nameplate looks really sharp!  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 28, 2017, 03:22:43 AM
Sounds like a really successful day Chris. I bet it was fun going to look at it today.........knowing just what your were looking for.  :)

Jim

PS: That nameplate looks really sharp!  :ThumbsUp:
Thanks Jim! I am really pleased with how it is going. It's amazing how many more little details that I saw today, after spending time with the first photo set and drawing as much as I could from them. Same thing happened with the Lombard, second day there filled in lots. I spent several times longer there today than I expected, kept going around/in/under and seeing more.


The 3d model is getting very complete, just 3 more links to do on the controls, and a few misc details. Very excited! Got a big pile of metal ordered, the ups guy is gonna hate me (as will whoever is getting the next box over on the conveyor belt).


I've also been drawing up some diagrams of how the shovel operates and how steam engines in general work for the historical society to use on the new signs they are going to put up by the fence. This spring more work will start on patching holes and getting it prepped for new paint on the outside, very exciting things!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 28, 2017, 10:11:40 PM
Linkages from the control handles to the main hoist stephenson links and the throttle valve on the slew engine are done, just need to make the links to the drain cocks on the hoist and slew engines, and the control rods will be done! Then a few small updates on some other parts to match what I found at the shovel yesterday, and the 3D drawings should be done.

Time for a cookie!  Oh, and dinner!
 ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 29, 2017, 08:59:21 PM
Today I got the last of the linkages done from the controls in the cab back to the engines/etc, and also made up the firebox grate assembly. The grates have an interesting shape, each panel has a curved top with diagonal slots, the bottoms have rectangular holes, and they all have a curved cross section with a hollow core. They pivot in the center of each one to allow dumping of the ash, and there is also a door at the bottom of the ash sluice that can be adjusted for air flow.
Here is a top view of the grates:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/z1647oetz/Boiler_v44_-_grate_top.jpg)
and a bottom view - the bars between the pivots get connected to rods moved from links in the cab behind the boiler backhead.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4jq9g4z6v/Boiler_v44_-_grate_bottom.jpg)

This completes the last of the parts (that I know of), and there is just one set of tweaks to the crosshead bearings to make, and the 3d model will be done (that I know of - sure there will be more discoveries later on). So, almost ready to make up a set of nice renderings of different views, inside and out, and make up labeled diagrams of all the controls for future reference... Then I can start generating the paper plans with dimensions.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 30, 2017, 09:20:46 PM
Major milestone time - the 3D model is done, pending any future learnings or mistakes found!

 :whoohoo:

I've been experimenting with the 'render' feature in Fusion360, getting some interesting results so far. It looks like I need to experiment some more with the materials that I assign to the parts (have defaulted everything to a gray steel finish up till now) to get better contrast on things.

Here is a view of the inside of the machine:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8c11nuolz/Marion_91_Inside_View.jpg)
I've got another render perking away now that is a close-up view of the control station that I am going to add labels for each control lever....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on November 30, 2017, 09:25:54 PM
OMG! That's a most wonderful illustration!!   :o :o

I'm drooling on the keyboard.... can't wait to see 'details'.  :P :Love:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 30, 2017, 09:38:57 PM
Thanks Pete!  I am amazed how much better these renders look than the working views!

Here is a closeup of the operator control station, have not labelled the controls yet, will do that later on.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4469ets8n/Marion_91_Controls_View.jpg)
This shows the 6 levers, a pedal and a pull-up handle for the main operator, then up forward on the base of the boom you can see the lever for the crowd engine that the secondary operator would control - guess they did not come up with a suitable linkage to bring that back for the main operator, since the chain runs on the axis of the turntable.

I want to do some experimenting with the materials I assign to the parts, will generate more detail views in the next couple days...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 30, 2017, 09:39:29 PM
Marvelous work Chris. The monochrome grey doesn't really give much definition to individual components. That is why my models are so many different colors. I'm not trying to promote the "rainbow thing"---it just helps a great deal to see where one piece ends and another piece starts.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 30, 2017, 10:01:56 PM
Marvelous work Chris. The monochrome grey doesn't really give much definition to individual components. That is why my models are so many different colors. I'm not trying to promote the "rainbow thing"---it just helps a great deal to see where one piece ends and another piece starts.---Brian
I agree - they have a option for coloring each component a different color automatically, but they only use 6 colors for that, and it doesn't allow any control. I think I will try some of the paint colors and see how it looks. They also have a lot of lighting knobs - lots to play with!

It still looks SO much better than my pencil drawings!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner_decoy on November 30, 2017, 10:40:36 PM
The detail & crispness of these last images is excellent.....

Back in post #166 we see the two slew chains which connect to the drum.......does the winch drum drive engine reverse to achieve the slewing?or is there some sort of reversing clutching device in the drum itself?

The driver/operator would certainly had a birds eye view of proceedings  :facepalm:

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 30, 2017, 11:03:52 PM
The detail & crispness of these last images is excellent.....

Back in post #166 we see the two slew chains which connect to the drum.......does the winch drum drive engine reverse to achieve the slewing?or is there some sort of reversing clutching device in the drum itself?

The driver/operator would certainly had a birds eye view of proceedings  :facepalm:

Derek
I only modelled the chains back as far as the rear guides, did not take them all the way to the drums.

There are two drums - one for the slewing of the turntable, the other for the main hoist.
The slew drum (rearmost and highest up) is driven by a smaller two-cylinder engine that sits between the gearbox and the boiler. That engine has one control valve that accomplishes both reversing and throttle, very clever arrangement that I touched on in an earlier post. The slew chain was wound around the slew drum a number of times, and the ends of the chain fasten to the front bottom end of the boom after going around the turntable.

The hoist engine is made up of the two large cylinders, one either side of the gearbox. That one has a stephenson linkage to reverse it, but the reverse is only normally used when driving the tracks (which engage with a dog clutch underneath). The hoist engine drives a large gear on the left of the hoist drum, which has a steam-operated cylinder which moves a lever which tightens a clutch band around the drum edge. To hold the bucket up and to control the speed it lowers, there is a brake band on the other end of the drum. To lower the bucket, they would put the hoist throttle all the way back, which turns off the steam and also connects the steam pipes to the cylinders over to the exhaust, letting the engine freewheel. That whole combination lets the operator do the work with the fewest number of levers. Well, they did combine the hoist clutch to the hoist throttle in a later model of the shovel, taking away one more lever.

I know that is a lot of words for all the actions - I am planning on making up a set of images to show all the controls and what/how they work this coming week, both for this thread and also they will be used on the signage going up at the shovel site, which is cool!

Oh, and the SECOND operator, out on the turntable, was the one with the birds-forehead view! He would be spinning side to side on the turntable while operating the crowd engine, and also pulling the rope to release the bottom lid of the bucket to dump the dirt/rock/mud. No automatic limits on anything either - there was a lot of marks on the front corners of the frame where the bucket hit it!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 30, 2017, 11:08:03 PM
Oh, and the main operator had to be sure not to lean to the right, or his right knee would get sliced by the edge of the chain guide wheel. The edge of the rightmost control handle has grooves worn halfway through it, since it is only an inch away, and any flex made it rub on the wheel!

OSHA? Nope!

O-S**t? Yup!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 30, 2017, 11:56:37 PM
Looking back at the pics, I think the gears in the main gearbox show up better - need to check what material/color options were on those, use that as a guide for the rest. There are lots of options for color, texture, reflectivity, etc.

EDIT: Nope - they are the same 'steel - satin' as the rest, just a matter of the reflections from other parts that makes them look better. Will play with other options on small parts/images tomorrow (small so they render quick).
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 01, 2017, 02:42:32 AM
This just gets better and better!  :cartwheel:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Stuart on December 01, 2017, 07:17:08 AM
Chris

All I can say is wow 👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 01, 2017, 06:09:31 PM
Thanks guys!

I did a bunch of experimenting with surface appearances (settled on their 'cast iron') and found the controls to change the lighting angles and background, and came up with this version, which shows the details much better:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9mv0qxvg7/Marion_91_Controls.jpg)
To get true photo-realism, you would need controls on variation of surface colors/textures over areas, more ray-tracing options, things like that, but for a 3D CAD app this is quite amazing. I hope the model can look this good!
Got some more views in the render pipeline now...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on December 01, 2017, 06:22:05 PM
Did the operator have to stand, or is there a seat missing?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 01, 2017, 06:39:17 PM
Did the operator have to stand, or is there a seat missing?
He would be standing. The old catalogs don't show any seat, and it would be hard to reach the levers and pedal while sitting, they are too high up. When I was standing on the platform, everything was in easy reach.
The secondary operator stood as well. I've seen a seat for him on larger models, sometimes slung off the side of the boom, but on this one everyone appears to have worked standing.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 01, 2017, 06:53:06 PM
Version with the controls labelled:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/n51x344zr/Marion_91_Controls_-_Labelled.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on December 01, 2017, 07:16:42 PM
These illustrations are absolutely amazing, Chris. I've been away from CAD long enough that the new stuff just blows me away!!

Outstanding!!!  The next obvious thing would be an animation of this model showing the various mechanisms in operation...  :o

I envy your skill, patience and dedication.

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 01, 2017, 07:27:54 PM
These illustrations are absolutely amazing, Chris. I've been away from CAD long enough that the new stuff just blows me away!!

Outstanding!!!  The next obvious thing would be an animation of this model showing the various mechanisms in operation...  :o

I envy your skill, patience and dedication.

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Pete
Thanks Pete!  I've done a couple of simple animations, but animating the entire thing is going to have to wait for videos of the model!!  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 01, 2017, 07:30:14 PM
Couple more rendering views:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/j8ol7gzjb/Marion_91_Outside_View_-_small.png)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/893dvuton/Marion_91_Close_Inside_View_-_small.png)

Time to start making the 2D drawings!  Oh, and while changing the appearance properties of the parts, I had it give me a total part count of the subassemblies. Grand total, not counting rivets, smaller bolts, and most of the nuts (excluding me) stands at 3586. Gonna be a long build!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 02, 2017, 01:50:36 AM
Started making up the plan sheets, and found out that Fusion allows you to put a photo in each sheet (based off the title block for a logo), so I made up a rendering of each sub-assembly to put up in the corner - seen that done on other plans, think it looks good plus gives a good reference for the assembled parts.

Here are a couple interesting views:

Slew/Crowd engines (both the same)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/nj7ughorr/Slew_Engine.png)

Hoist engine:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/emx2cuvo7/Hoist_Engine.png)

Boiler:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/yhj3z2imf/Boiler.png)

Turntable/main boom:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/jlkkreewn/Turntable_And_Derrick.png)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on December 02, 2017, 02:15:48 AM
Those are amazing renders, Chris.
I love the background - looks like Tatooine! :)
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on December 02, 2017, 02:25:29 AM
Just freekin' amazing!!! I remember back when all that sort of work was done by illustrators. Things have changed....

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 02, 2017, 02:35:26 AM
Going to be a big incentive to try and get the model to look that good! I'm really impressed with the software!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 02, 2017, 04:45:20 AM
Fantastic Chris. Lets hope for a long winter in Rochester!  ;)

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on December 02, 2017, 09:24:54 AM
Yeah Gods! That's just awesome Chris!

Glad the guys got the  :popcorn: planted!!!! Hope it doesn't suffer too much from the sun we are getting, hopefully last years crop will last until this years is in !!

Going to be a great build to follow along!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: PJPickard on December 02, 2017, 12:25:05 PM
Excellent work on those renderings, and of course the whole solid model. I'm just starting to figure out the CAM side of Fusion.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 02, 2017, 02:18:37 PM
Fantastic Chris. Lets hope for a long winter in Rochester!  ;)

Jim
Hope its not a three year winter!!  :Lol:
I still get a lot done in good weather, send me a nuce day once in a while! 


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 02, 2017, 02:19:55 PM
Yeah Gods! That's just awesome Chris!

Glad the guys got the  :popcorn: planted!!!! Hope it doesn't suffer too much from the sun we are getting, hopefully last years crop will last until this years is in !!

Going to be a great build to follow along!

Cheers Kerrin
THAT'S what I keep hearing in the distance, popcorn crunching!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 02, 2017, 02:22:12 PM
Excellent work on those renderings, and of course the whole solid model. I'm just starting to figure out the CAM side of Fusion.


I've gotten comfortable with the sketching and modelling side, don't have a clue on the mesh model part, never looked at the sheet metal, simulation, or CAM portions. An amazing technology.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on December 02, 2017, 05:17:57 PM
Fantastic Chris. Lets hope for a long winter in Rochester!  ;)

Jim
Please no long winter in Rochester, it's south of me and if it's long there it's longer here.
I did some computer drafting 30 odd years back (and pencel and ink before that), but what I was doing is kids crayon scripleing compared to what you are doing.
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 02, 2017, 05:57:37 PM
Fantastic Chris. Lets hope for a long winter in Rochester!  ;)

Jim
Please no long winter in Rochester, it's south of me and if it's long there it's longer here.
I did some computer drafting 30 odd years back (and pencel and ink before that), but what I was doing is kids crayon scripleing compared to what you are doing.
Gerald.
Some of the coldest weather I've ever been in was up in the Toronto area, going to the winter boat show back when you guys had the indoor pool set up for the RC boat display (wow, that was a LONG time ago, think I was in college at the time). The one night the temps got so low the overhead electric trolley lines were snapping, and we had a heck of a time getting the car to run in the morning. You guys don't get quite as much snow as us, but your air gets swarfing COLD!

The only drafting I had done was in the high school class with pencil on paper - this is MUCH more productive!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Admiral_dk on December 02, 2017, 09:03:35 PM
I'm very impressed with the "photos" you created with the software  :praise2:

At a quick glance the do look like pictures taken with a camera - it's only when you look closer that you realize they are "artificial" .... and I do like the later comment about Star Wars appearance  ^-^

Best wishes and looking forward to another amazing journey of your endeavours, followed quietly from the background with the rest of the Peanuts  ;D

Per
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 02, 2017, 09:46:16 PM
I'm very impressed with the "photos" you created with the software  :praise2:

At a quick glance the do look like pictures taken with a camera - it's only when you look closer that you realize they are "artificial" .... and I do like the later comment about Star Wars appearance  ^-^

Best wishes and looking forward to another amazing journey of your endeavours, followed quietly from the background with the rest of the Peanuts  ;D

Per

"You Can Always Count On The Cheap Seats!"
- Harry Chapin

Glad to have you along for the (next) ride!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 03, 2017, 02:42:09 AM
Got a start on the plans, will take a while to finish them.


In the meantime, here is a video that one of the guys took from his submarine last time at the Y pool. The Orca sub is mine.



Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 03, 2017, 02:58:58 AM
That's way cool Chris. Looks like there's 2 sections to that pool.

Also looks like there may of been an issue with one of the subs at the end there?

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 03, 2017, 03:05:10 AM
That's way cool Chris. Looks like there's 2 sections to that pool.

Also looks like there may of been an issue with one of the subs at the end there?

Jim
Yup, the pool has a large normal rectangular area, and a smaller shallow section connected to it, fun to navigate. His video came out well. That sub at the end had a broken latch, the top half came off. Most of them are built that way, so you can get at the controls and the water tight cylinder with the electronics.
My whale did not bite off the deck. Honest. Really...  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 03, 2017, 03:21:15 AM
That's way cool Chris. Looks like there's 2 sections to that pool.

Also looks like there may of been an issue with one of the subs at the end there?

Jim
Yup, the pool has a large normal rectangular area, and a smaller shallow section connected to it, fun to navigate. His video came out well. That sub at the end had a broken latch, the top half came off. Most of them are built that way, so you can get at the controls and the water tight cylinder with the electronics.
My whale did not bite off the deck. Honest. Really...  :Lol:

Sure..........that's what you say!  :thinking:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on December 03, 2017, 05:44:33 AM
Neat video Chris!  It must be pretty rewarding to see your Orca buzzing around like that.  Pretty impressive underwater video too!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 06, 2017, 10:36:38 PM
Just a quick updatwe on what is happening - I got the last of the plan sheets generated (43 pages, D-size, quite a pile) and off getting a couple sets printed - one for me and one for the historical society. I printed off a set on 8-12x11 paper to check them, they are legible but the text is pretty tiny.

Next step is to go get some cookies (and start the dough for this year's batch of Christmas cookies), and rest up for a bit.  Then, will make a copy of the project workspace and use that one to scale down to 1:16 scale for the model. I am assuming that there will be some work to do on the drawing files in that copy, at least have to reset the scale of the parts on each page, if not go in and change some dimensions on the thinner parts. Also, I'll need to design up the version of the slew/crowd/steering engines to use the simplified valving that I came up with to accomplish the combined throttle/reverse control to replace the original version, which depends on some very complex castings in the engine block.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: MJM460 on December 07, 2017, 04:33:13 AM
Hi Chris, that valve adaption you came up with is very clever.  I have spent quite a while looking at it and following how it works.

I have noticed that because of the lack of symmetry, the pressures will tend to be tipping the valve a bit rather than pressing it down flat on the port face.  The full size at least partly overcomes this by the extra weight on one end due to the casting shape.  When you come to the scale design for your engines, apart from making the cylinder ports as large as practical, it might be worth seeing if you can make it a bit more symmetrical.  This might mean making it a bit longer and I don't know if that will fit in the constraint of the valve chest outline, but if you see an option, it might be worth minimising the unbalanced pressure forces on the valve by making it as symmetrical as possible.

I suspect that is far enough ahead to not be an immediate concern, but having these things ticking over in the subconscious is often more helpful than a last minute thought, now that you have mentioned engines.

I am following every step of another great project, thank you for your effort to document it so completely.

MJM460
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 07, 2017, 02:13:45 PM
Hi MJM,


I had not thought about that part. The original, and mine, also have the steam chest around the slider full of steam, so that is acting to press the slider down with the lower pressure on the exhaust side (slightly on the steam side probably as the piston moves and the steam flows, but that would be transitory).
You are right in that it would help to add more mass on the outboard end. The slew engine lays flat, where the crowd engine is 45 degrees down at the cylinder end, which will help a bit. The tough one will be the steering engine, which is vertical.
I based my drawings on Marion's patent, which does not mention the steering engine version since that came a decade later. I wonder if they added a sprung guide, like a balanced d valve has. I could probably add a strip of spring material above the slider to keep it pressed down, shouldn't take much. Hmmm...


Thanks for noticing that! It's probably not a problem for the slew engine, but the others it could be.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: MJM460 on December 08, 2017, 11:51:47 AM
Hi Chris,  it's not easy to be sure how important the effect is, but more symmetrical will always lead to less problem.  The problem is not the upper face, which as you say has uniform steam pressure over it, but the port face of the valve.  The area connected to the exhaust is obviously at low pressure and the area of this exhaust cavity with its low pressure causes most of the force pressing the valve against the face.  The steam supply port is a bit harder to tell, but I think sometimes at least it is a little lower than the steam supply, if only due to the flow through the passages, so adds a little to the force.  The sealing faces are harder to analyse, but the pressure distribution is often assumed to be linear between the known pressure at the ends of the valve and the pressure in the cavities, so it tends to add to the force.  Obviously the largest part of the force, the part due to the exhaust cavity being off centre, means the forces on the valve are not quite balanced as they are in a normal valve.

Just worth a little thought in case the valve is easily made more symmetrical, as that would be worthwhile.  I think the pressures will still press the valve against the face, bit the forces may be a bit un even, so I am not sure that a spring would be necessary, or that it would even help.  It will be interesting to see what others think.

MJM460


Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 08, 2017, 12:51:03 PM
I think there will be room to extend the slider a bit, think I will design it with it longer to start with. The next step on the plans is to take a copy of the 3d project, scale all the components down, then replace the innards of the slew/crowd engines with my version of the ports, so that will be a perfect time to make that change.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 09, 2017, 09:10:59 PM
I've started making the model-sized version (1:16) of the 3D model, and it looks like it will take a bit longer than I had hoped. Fusion HAD a prototyped way to branch a project, and let both continue on from the branch, which would have let me copy both the design and the drawings and still have the original ones.

However, that preview has ended, and they have decided they did not like it, will be starting over on that functionality. They also recently said there would be a way to copy the linked drawings with a design, that never made the release last month, say they hit a problem and are rethinking the whole idea.

So, sigh....    :shrug:

Looks like I will have to regenerate all the drawings (all 43 pages) for the scaled-down copy of the project. At least it still lets me make a sub-folder and copy all the projects into it (no way to copy them to a top-level folder, but that is no big deal).

Going to be another week or so before any metal cutting starts.

Keep that popcorn warm, things will continue!   :zap:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 11, 2017, 08:02:21 PM
I have all the views for the model-sized version of the Marion shovel laid out, still need to add the dimensions to everything. In order to get started cutting metal (finally!) I am going to work on that in the background, while starting work on the dipper bucket. That should make a nice piece to have sitting with the parts as they get made.

The bucket shell was a large casting in the original, I think that I am going to make a wood form and bend some sheet copper over it to make the shell. Or maybe some annealed brass bar? Have to make a test, see if the brass will take the bends or not. The shell is 5/32" thick, seems like the brass would take a tight bend that thin (probably in a couple of annealing steps), but if not I know the copper will do it.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 11, 2017, 09:57:49 PM
I have all the views for the model-sized version of the Marion shovel laid out, still need to add the dimensions to everything. In order to get started cutting metal (finally!) I am going to work on that in the background, while starting work on the dipper bucket. That should make a nice piece to have sitting with the parts as they get made.

The bucket shell was a large casting in the original, I think that I am going to make a wood form and bend some sheet copper over it to make the shell. Or maybe some annealed brass bar? Have to make a test, see if the brass will take the bends or not. The shell is 5/32" thick, seems like the brass would take a tight bend that thin (probably in a couple of annealing steps), but if not I know the copper will do it.
Got the plan sheets dimensioned up for the dipper, and also checked the metal stock - have some copper sheet left over from boiler work that will work out fine, the wide brass bar I have is a bit thick, and I don't think it will take these tight bends as well, so am going to use copper for the shell and brass/steel for the rest. First I need to do some wood work and make the form to bend the shell around...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 11, 2017, 10:31:47 PM
Oh, and for those of you who know me, you know I can't just be working on one project at a time! I've had this one on the back burner for a while, finally got enough knowledge put together to attempt it: another RC submarine project, this time it is another 'biologic' sub, a green sea turtle! I got the idea from one of the Nature episodes on PBS, where they used remote operated animals with cameras in the eyes to do research on animals in the wild. One of them was a sea turtle that swam around with dolphins and such, it made me think that something simaler would be a really fun model. So, I learned a bit more about moldmaking and the newer rubber compounds for flexible flippers/etc, and made some wire-controlled animitronic prototypes. So far I have the shell and head carved up from wood, still getting that sealed up and smoothed out, and just cut the blanks for the flippers. The head and tail will flex side to side as it steers, the flippers will flex up/down to act as dive planes, and there will be a pair of propellers in kort nozzles set back beside the tail for propulsion.

Here is a picture of the parts so far. In front is the small plastic turtle I found at the zoo shop this past summer, used it as well as photos for the proportions of the model.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wuthhip4n/IMG_1569a.jpg)

Now, back to carving out the form for the Marion bucket!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 12, 2017, 04:43:13 AM
Oh, and for those of you who know me, you know I can't just be working on one project at a time! I've had this one on the back burner for a while, finally got enough knowledge put together to attempt it: another RC submarine project, this time it is another 'biologic' sub, a green sea turtle! I got the idea from one of the Nature episodes on PBS, where they used remote operated animals with cameras in the eyes to do research on animals in the wild. One of them was a sea turtle that swam around with dolphins and such, it made me think that something simaler would be a really fun model. So, I learned a bit more about moldmaking and the newer rubber compounds for flexible flippers/etc, and made some wire-controlled animitronic prototypes. So far I have the shell and head carved up from wood, still getting that sealed up and smoothed out, and just cut the blanks for the flippers. The head and tail will flex side to side as it steers, the flippers will flex up/down to act as dive planes, and there will be a pair of propellers in kort nozzles set back beside the tail for propulsion.
Chris.............you definitely have more hours in your day than the rest of us!  :praise2: It's going to be fun to see that "bad boy" in operation.

Stay warm back there............looks ugly on the news!

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 12, 2017, 01:17:15 PM
Oh, and for those of you who know me, you know I can't just be working on one project at a time! I've had this one on the back burner for a while, finally got enough knowledge put together to attempt it: another RC submarine project, this time it is another 'biologic' sub, a green sea turtle! I got the idea from one of the Nature episodes on PBS, where they used remote operated animals with cameras in the eyes to do research on animals in the wild. One of them was a sea turtle that swam around with dolphins and such, it made me think that something simaler would be a really fun model. So, I learned a bit more about moldmaking and the newer rubber compounds for flexible flippers/etc, and made some wire-controlled animitronic prototypes. So far I have the shell and head carved up from wood, still getting that sealed up and smoothed out, and just cut the blanks for the flippers. The head and tail will flex side to side as it steers, the flippers will flex up/down to act as dive planes, and there will be a pair of propellers in kort nozzles set back beside the tail for propulsion.
Chris.............you definitely have more hours in your day than the rest of us!  :praise2: It's going to be fun to see that "bad boy" in operation.

Stay warm back there............looks ugly on the news!

Jim
Oh, are you guys still back in that silly alternate universe with only 24 hours in a day?!   :Lol:


We got another 4 or 6 inches of snow overnight, more coming tonight. Its good to be retired so I can pick when I go out!  A guy I know lives near Buffalo where the lake effect snow comes off of Lake Erie, they regularly get snow by the foot whenever the wind is blowing from the west, which it usually is.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 12, 2017, 02:56:58 PM
Okay, been a while coming, but finally starting to shape material for the Marion 91!

All right, its not metal, and its just a form to make the metal, but it made shavings, so it counts! Here is the wood form to bend the copper sheet over to make the body of the bucket:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/s6wboqv07/IMG_1571.jpg)

The block is a chunk of apple wood that I had in the stacks, left over from cutting knees out of the crooks of an apple tree for use in one of the full size boats (the naturally curved grain where branches come out of the trunk is very strong and stable). The block was cut to width (3") and depth (2.69") on the table saw, then the one side was tapered and the corners rounded off with a block plane. The block is longer than is needed for the metal, to leave room to clamp it in the vise. It should also work out as a holding fixture when milling the ends and drilling holes in the bucket shell.

Here is a rendering of the dipper assembly to show you where I am going with this:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qosg73kd3/Dipper_Boom_And_Bucket.png)
The bucket shell will get extra layers of bar stock to form the thicker areas at the top and bottom - the original did it the same way, with the bands rivetted in place.

Next up will be to cut a 3-1/2" wide length of the sheet stock, anneal it, and start bending - that will likely be tomorrow, have some other family stuff today.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 12, 2017, 03:22:01 PM
 :whoohoo:  :popcornsmall:  :wine1:

I see plans under the wood form. It'd be great to see them, if you haven't posted them already.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: mal webber on December 12, 2017, 05:33:34 PM
Looking forward to seeing this build  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 12, 2017, 06:53:37 PM
:whoohoo: :popcornsmall: :wine1:

I see plans under the wood form. It'd be great to see them, if you haven't posted them already.

Jim


I only have the first couple of sheets of the scaled down ones done so far, will be dimensioning the rest over the next week or two. There are plans for the plans in the works, more info on that in the next couple of months... :-X
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 12, 2017, 06:54:45 PM
Looking forward to seeing this build  :popcorn:
Great to have you along for the ride, this should be a fun one!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on December 13, 2017, 02:51:09 PM
"Oh, are you guys still back in that silly alternate universe with only 24 hours in a day?!   

We got another 4 or 6 inches of snow overnight, more coming tonight. Its good to be retired so I can pick when I go out!  A guy I know lives near Buffalo where the lake effect snow comes off of Lake Erie, they regularly get snow by the foot whenever the wind is blowing from the west, which it usually is. "

Chris I have been trying to find the universe with more than 24 hours in a day for years.
It is nice to be retired and pick when you have to go out, but sometimes the Gods are against you. Yesterday I had a heart specialist appointment downtown, took me an hour to go what is normally a 25 minute bus ride, then 45 minutes on two subways, that normally is a 30 minute ride. Then to top it all off they want to do another heart procedure.
I once asked one of the Buffalo Guys why there ancestors had not moved to somewhere with less snow after the first winter, He said that they had probably burned there wagons the first year to keep warm. with to days temperature I can understand that -12 C now.
Are you going to do a thread on your sea turtle build?
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 13, 2017, 03:27:33 PM
Quote
"Oh, are you guys still back in that silly alternate universe with only 24 hours in a day?!   

We got another 4 or 6 inches of snow overnight, more coming tonight. Its good to be retired so I can pick when I go out!  A guy I know lives near Buffalo where the lake effect snow comes off of Lake Erie, they regularly get snow by the foot whenever the wind is blowing from the west, which it usually is. "
Chris I have been trying to find the universe with more than 24 hours in a day for years.
It is nice to be retired and pick when you have to go out, but sometimes the Gods are against you. Yesterday I had a heart specialist appointment downtown, took me an hour to go what is normally a 25 minute bus ride, then 45 minutes on two subways, that normally is a 30 minute ride. Then to top it all off they want to do another heart procedure.
I once asked one of the Buffalo Guys why there ancestors had not moved to somewhere with less snow after the first winter, He said that they had probably burned there wagons the first year to keep warm. with to days temperature I can understand that -12 C now.
Are you going to do a thread on your sea turtle build?
Gerald.
You remember Paul Spielberger? He moved to the south side of Buffalo near the lake, since he likes snow so much - they get DUMPED on every time there is a west wind off Lake Erie. And he is a school teacher, figured he would have more sense! I heard that the east end of Lake Ontario is getting hit hard too, as usual, another four feet yesterday. The snowmobilers are having a ball.

I am probably going to do an article for the sea turtle sub in the Sub Committee journal (thats the group that organizes the RC sub clubs). I'll post pics here occasionally too as the work progresses. Just ordered a bunch of the mold-making supplies from Smooth-On, got a few more of the master parts to carve and prep, and I want to have the wire-controlled limb mechanisms made before I cast the parts in silicone rubber. The shell will be fiberglass.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 13, 2017, 06:57:17 PM
And the actual metal-work has begun!  Started by cutting the blank for the bucket shell out of some brass sheet stock (found another sheet at the bottom of the stack that was a closer size in brass than the copper I had, this will make a stronger finished part).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/drx8sl5ev/IMG_1572.jpg)
Set up the torch outside (COLD out there today, so the metal cooled down again quickly between annealing steps) and got it up to a dull red, then let it cool and gave it the initial bend over the form, just pushing it in place by hand. Got this far around before it work-hardened and stopped:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/df5umfi07/IMG_1574.jpg)
Out for another annealing, then another bend:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rlllhnl5j/IMG_1576.jpg)
The front took the shape well, finished off with a few mallet taps with a wood block over the metal to prevent dents. Back out for another re-heat, and got the back curves tighter in:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/u2xcowpmf/IMG_1577.jpg)
The overlap was marked, then used a hacksaw to take off the extra length, cleaned it up on the edge of the belt sander:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/p49uaegon/IMG_1579.jpg)
Slid the part off the form, it holds the shape pretty well, little bit of springback:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6bxz6sx53/IMG_1580.jpg)
For strength, I think I will silver solder the seam. There are several cross-bars that will span the joint, those will get rivetted and solft soldered in place, but I don't want to risk the joint popping open later on, so the silver solder should do the trick. If there is any sign of the joint, a little JB weld and filing should blend it in nicely.
To hold the joint tight for soldering, I am going to make up a couple of short clamp blocks (just u-shapes with screws) to span the joint, if that happens to get silver soldered in place, it will be easy to trim them off.  Then I can start in on the next layers of banding and cross bars, using the wood form to hold everything in the mill vise for trimming to shape....
Nice to be back cutting metal again!  :cartwheel:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 13, 2017, 08:47:21 PM
Continuing on with the initial piece of the dipper bucket, made up a couple little clamps to hold the joint in place for silver soldering. First milled a slot in a bit of square stock:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/70bf3c8c7/IMG_1582.jpg)
and drilled/tapped a pair of holes in each, before sawing the two clamps apart:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/cbqbo2hk7/IMG_1583.jpg)
Here are the clamps in action, tightened down the screw on one side of each, pressed the bucket shell together while tightening the other two. Had to go back and file off a couple of burs to get the two halves to seat tightly.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tp0m2wxfr/IMG_1584.jpg)
And the shell after silver soldering it outside - put the solder on the outside of the joint while heating from inside, looks like it penetrated very well.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/d1940fadz/IMG_1585.jpg)
The clamps did not get soldered on, fortunately - remembered too late that I have some Nicrobraze that I should have put on first to prevent that, but got lucky that the flux and solder did not flow over that far.  Its taking a bath in some pickle for now. When that is done I can start on the banding that goes around the top/bottom ends, then mill the ends to shape. The bottom is flat, the top gets an angled notch to give the top forward end a better bite into the ground. The banding will be rivetted/soft soldered in place.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on December 14, 2017, 03:14:33 AM
And so it begins!  :popcorn:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on December 14, 2017, 03:47:46 AM
It's gonna be a long movie... :whoohoo:

 :popcorn: :popcorn:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 14, 2017, 03:47:59 AM
Good start Chris :ThumbsUp: The journey has begun.  :whoohoo:

I think using brass is a better way to go. Much stronger when you start digging that miniature Panama Canel in your backyard!  :naughty:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 14, 2017, 03:56:02 AM
Thanks guys!


Definitely going to be a long movie, think Peter Jackson and a Tolkien story!


Hmm, I have the RC boats, a canal would be useful to get to the neighbors pool!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on December 14, 2017, 06:48:49 AM
Thanks guys!


Definitely going to be a long movie, think Peter Jackson and a Tolkien story!


Hmm, I have the RC boats, a canal would be useful to get to the neighbors pool!!

Now that's thinking like a true Robber Baron!!!

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: pp2076 on December 14, 2017, 10:17:42 AM
Hi Chris,

As you know already I have been inspired by your recent work on the very successful Lombard and now the Marion Shovel.

Your 3D drawings in Fusion 360 give a great example of what can be achieved with realistic and detailed illustrations of the workings of these rather complex machines. I am still working with my thoughts on Ruston-Bucyrus Shovels which in many ways are similar to Marion's products.

It seems that much of the original information on the R-B designs has been lost along with those of Ruston & Hornsby as a result of the takeovers by English Electric and then Siemens, neither of which were likely to have an interest in shovels. However I am still collecting whatever I can find, including various sources which have found their way to the Antipodes.

I have been a user of Autodesk Inventor for some time and I want to compare the results from that very expensive programme with your work with the free ( for hobbyists) Fusion 360 which originates from the same software house.  I wonder whether Inventor which has all sorts of bells and whistles but was 'invented' some years ago would perform as well as Fusion 360 which surely must have more up-to-date origins. :headscratch:

Sorry to hijack your thread.
Jerry
Beware: Fusion 360 is only free to hobbyists for a year. After that they charge like a wounded bull
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ozzie46 on December 14, 2017, 12:35:37 PM
Great work Chris.

 I've had Fusion 360 since it became avaiable and have never been charged a cent. Totally free for us hobby guys.


Ron
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 14, 2017, 01:34:07 PM
Hi Chris,

As you know already I have been inspired by your recent work on the very successful Lombard and now the Marion Shovel.

Your 3D drawings in Fusion 360 give a great example of what can be achieved with realistic and detailed illustrations of the workings of these rather complex machines. I am still working with my thoughts on Ruston-Bucyrus Shovels which in many ways are similar to Marion's products.

It seems that much of the original information on the R-B designs has been lost along with those of Ruston & Hornsby as a result of the takeovers by English Electric and then Siemens, neither of which were likely to have an interest in shovels. However I am still collecting whatever I can find, including various sources which have found their way to the Antipodes.

I have been a user of Autodesk Inventor for some time and I want to compare the results from that very expensive programme with your work with the free ( for hobbyists) Fusion 360 which originates from the same software house.  I wonder whether Inventor which has all sorts of bells and whistles but was 'invented' some years ago would perform as well as Fusion 360 which surely must have more up-to-date origins. :headscratch:

Sorry to hijack your thread.
Jerry
Beware: Fusion 360 is only free to hobbyists for a year. After that they charge like a wounded bull
Not true about fusion. I've been using it for 2 years, no charge. They explicitly state it is free for hobbyist use with no time limit. They no longer even require you to re-register each year.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: b.lindsey on December 14, 2017, 04:26:38 PM
Well even if no real "chips" yes, there is at least some brass sawdust  :).  Nice start on the bucket Chris!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 14, 2017, 05:27:23 PM
Well even if no real "chips" yes, there is at least some brass sawdust  :) .  Nice start on the bucket Chris!!

Bill
Well, aren't sawdust chips still swarf? They would be off a slitting saw in the mill, right?  :headscratch:

Some 'real' chips will be made as soon as I start drilling the holes in the parts and mill off the shapes on the end!

Wait! There WAS some milling already, making the little clamps for silver soldering! Yes!   :stickpoke:

Off to the shop to cut the banding pieces for the top/bottom of the shell...

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 14, 2017, 06:33:13 PM
Cut the strips for the bands around the sides/front, annealed them mand bent into shape using the shell as a form. The last few degrees of the bend were tweaked in using pliers till a good fit was reached. Next I'll start drilling/riveting them in place with some small brass rivets.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/j7k7i17qf/IMG_1588.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on December 14, 2017, 07:06:55 PM
Now the initial work looks great, but, I have to admit that with all the talk of snow ( and the season) all I could think about was mint chocolate chip cookies and vanilla bean hot cocoa  8) :lolb:

Y’all stay warm
Cletus
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: mal webber on December 14, 2017, 07:11:18 PM
And the build as began  :popcorn: :DrinkPint:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 14, 2017, 07:12:17 PM
Now the initial work looks great, but, I have to admit that with all the talk of snow ( and the season) all I could think about was mint chocolate chip cookies and vanilla bean hot cocoa  8) :lolb:

Y’all stay warm
Cletus

Mmmmmmm!!!    :LickLips:

Don't forget the lemon/sugar christmas cookies! Womped up a batch of those last week... Yum!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on December 14, 2017, 07:14:40 PM
Don’t tell me you sprinkle them with raw sugar crystals, you know, the ones that have a bit of a yellowish tint  :stickpoke:

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 14, 2017, 07:15:42 PM
And the build as began  :popcorn: :DrinkPint:

Yes, great to be spending more time in the shop again rather than at the keyboard! Though I did have to come back to the 3D design briefly, I was setting up to drill the rivet holes, and something just did not look right. Checked the photos of the real bucket again, and realized that I had extended the bands too far down the sides - they should stop a bit before/after the center point at top/bottom. Just corrected that, need to trim the bands now. At least I caught it BEFORE drilling and attaching them! 
 :embarassed:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 14, 2017, 07:18:00 PM
Don’t tell me you sprinkle them with raw sugar crystals, you know, the ones that have a bit of a yellowish tint  :stickpoke:

Cletus
Well, there are yellow, blue, green, and red sugar sprinkles - need something to decorate the confectioners sugar/water topping! I throw more lemon into that topping as well, very tasty!

Hope you are not using the yellow snow...   :stickpoke:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 14, 2017, 08:28:33 PM
The first batch of rivets are in to hold those two bands on the bucket shell. Clamped the bands to the shell, and held the wood form in the mill vise to do the drilling.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/c9g3bt6yf/IMG_1589.jpg)
After the first couple holes were drilled, put in the rivets and removed the clamp so the other holes could be drilled. Same on the other band. The holes in the top of the upper band are lowered since the top will be milled off at an angle later on.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/g5tf7sznr/IMG_1591.jpg)
There are no rivets along the front of the bands yet - those will go in with the bases for the teeth are made, since they extend down the inside all the way to the bottom of the bucket. I think they did it that way to both stiffen the front of the bucket, and to keep the teeth from getting twisted from the force of digging.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on December 14, 2017, 08:36:27 PM
On the model subject: this one looks to be of larger size than the Lombard. On the cookie subject: Grandma Douglas always dusted her Christmas shortbread cookies with raw cane sugar. Under candle light on her dessert table, they had the most wonderful warm glow  :old:.

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 14, 2017, 08:55:22 PM
On the model subject: this one looks to be of larger size than the Lombard. On the cookie subject: Grandma Douglas always dusted her Christmas shortbread cookies with raw cane sugar. Under candle light on her dessert table, they had the most wonderful warm glow  :old: .

Cletus
The models are a different scale - the Lombard was at 1:12, the Shay and this model are both 1:16 scale. The shovel itself is much larger than the Lombard is in real life though, so the model will be larger. The Lombard is approximately 30' long, the steam shovel is nearly 74' long overall, including the dipper bucket at a medium angle. The Lombard is around 19 tons, the shovel wieghs in at 120 tons!

Now I understand what you meant about dusting the cookies, that is different than mine, which have the larger crystal sugars embedded in a hardened frosting layer. Both ways are great!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 14, 2017, 10:25:06 PM
One more bit for the afternoon - put on the strip underneath the top one at the front, that just goes around the corner then ends with a curved section. I thought about making it part of the top bar, but didn't have a wide enough piece so made it in two sections. Some soft solder or JB weld will fair it in and make it look like one piece. The color difference is due the heating to anneal it, going to give it all a dunk in the pickle and a good scouring to clean it all up.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/k7aidemsn/IMG_1593.jpg)

Next up is the two vertical bars on the back edge that have the attachment points to the boom, as well as three horizontal bars that tie it all in to the bucket shell. Those horizontal bars will be some fiddly filing work to make them sit flush where they wrap around the back curves. Or, may bend them and file the outside edges down, that may be easier. Enough for one day though!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on December 15, 2017, 07:50:39 AM
Don’t tell me you sprinkle them with raw sugar crystals, you know, the ones that have a bit of a yellowish tint  :stickpoke:

Cletus
Well, there are yellow, blue, green, and red sugar sprinkles - need something to decorate the confectioners sugar/water topping! I throw more lemon into that topping as well, very tasty!

Hope you are not using the yellow snow...   :stickpoke:

Hang about!!

You know the rules around here......

 :pics: :pics:

Oh & crumbs DONT count!

 :lolb:

Cheers Kerrin
 
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 15, 2017, 01:52:00 PM
Don’t tell me you sprinkle them with raw sugar crystals, you know, the ones that have a bit of a yellowish tint  :stickpoke:

Cletus
Well, there are yellow, blue, green, and red sugar sprinkles - need something to decorate the confectioners sugar/water topping! I throw more lemon into that topping as well, very tasty!

Hope you are not using the yellow snow...   :stickpoke:

Hang about!!

You know the rules around here......

 :pics: :pics:

Oh & crumbs DONT count!

 :lolb:

Cheers Kerrin
Okay Kerrin, (chew, crunch), okay (munch munch)... Here is a photo of the dipper bucket digging up some of the cookies!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/pwr7hfx5j/IMG_1595.jpg)
 :ROFL:
And, in the spirit of completeness, here is how the sea turtle submarine wood forms are coming along...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/f9xec0wpz/IMG_1596.jpg)
Still need to carve the rear flipper and tail forms, detail them, then I can get them sealed up (seal, get it?) to take the molds from them.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 15, 2017, 06:54:57 PM
A little more done on the dipper bucket this afternoon, started by drilling the holes in the sides where the pivot pins for the yoke will go through (the yoke spans the bucket, and holds the chain pulley that hoists the bucket up and down).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ae3evc56f/IMG_1597.jpg)
The holes were laid out on either side, drilled partway through on the first side, and they actually met up perfectly in the middle when the second hole was drilled.
 :cartwheel:
These holes will be used during the rest of the milling/drilling operations to keep the bucket shell from shifting with a through-bolt. I made up a piece of brass rod for the center, threaded at each end for a bolt, and a pair of snug-fitting spacers to protect the edges of the hole and to keep the bolts from wobbling in the openings. The spacers are threaded also.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/64yot69mv/IMG_1598.jpg)
Here the through bolt is in place, locking the shell to the wood form nicely:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/sgwhmkggn/IMG_1599.jpg)
The next step is to fit the cross braces on the back side of the bucket. There are three of these, and the vertical bars will be notched to fit these and lock everything in place. I decided it would be easiest to bend some 1/8" bar into shape for the back of the bucket (annealed and bent cold, took two heats for the first one). The outer ends will be taken to the belt sander to thin the ends down, and blend the outer part of the curve to the sides of the bucket. I had considered taking the whole shape out of a wider bar, but this seemed much quicker and easier.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qcc4lhmjr/IMG_1600.jpg)
So, a little more blacksmithing to do, um, guess it is yellow-smithing for brass, to make the other two cross bars, then I will start on the vertical bars, which hold the ends of the brackets to hold the bucket to the boom and also the hinge for the lower lid.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on December 15, 2017, 08:31:22 PM
Hi Chris,
 Biscuits look very tasty! Turtle is coming on, going to be fun seeing the video of him / her in action :stickpoke:
Nice progress on the bucket,  :popcorn: :popcorn:

Had a bit of rain the last couple of days, so I can splash out on a double helping of  :popcorn:

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 15, 2017, 10:49:49 PM
Thanks Kerrin!

One more thing done today after bending the other two cross beams, laid out and cut the notches in them to take the vertical bars, which will have matching notches so that they sit flush. The cross beams were clamped together on the bucket so that they were properly lined up, then moved over to the mill for cutting.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fom5rtypj/IMG_1602.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/6gtxb5esn/IMG_1603.jpg)
The vertical bars will be up next...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: fumopuc on December 16, 2017, 05:26:58 PM
Hi Chris, a great pleasure to follow your new project.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 16, 2017, 06:29:06 PM
Hi Chris, a great pleasure to follow your new project.
Thanks Achim, nice to have you along!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 16, 2017, 08:25:50 PM
Got working on the vertical bars that go on the back side of the dipper bucket, to reinforce it and to provide attachment points for the bottom lid and the boom. Started with a pair of 3/8" square bars that had been stress-relieved in the oven at 500F for an hour and left to cool, then drilled the cross holes and then squared up the ends with a mill.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/p20zka0br/IMG_1604.jpg)
Second step was to mill the slots to half-lap over the horizontal bars:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/w58uzwdh3/IMG_1605.jpg)
then turned the bars over and started taking away the excess on the other side, to leave the attachment lugs. Dirst the section at the ends:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/y9t80zmtj/IMG_1606.jpg)
then the part in the middle:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4hw5lt7pz/IMG_1607.jpg)
The section at the top of the bars is angled:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fhhcxf5uv/IMG_1608.jpg)
Then the bottom/middle lugs got thier sides angled at 45 degrees:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/nzqt1rk3b/IMG_1609.jpg)
last section needed the parts turned over to leave room to hold them:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8e9hhtfuv/IMG_1610.jpg)
And here is why the stress relieving step is important - without it, the bars would look like bananas at this point. When they roll out the shapes, the outer surfaces get compressed and build up stresses. If you cut away one side of the bar, it will curve towards that side. With the bake in the oven, the stresses get worked out without effecting the hardness much, handy trick that works with brass alloys. This does not work the same with steels - each steel alloy has different behaviors, you have to look them up to see what if anything can be done. For brass, which only work hardens and will not harden with heat, this method works quite well.
The slight gap you see in this photo is just how the bars laid down on the mat - when held together they laid dead straight together.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/x7j1ih6l3/IMG_1611.jpg)
Last step for the day was to cut the slots in two of the lugs - at the top to take the angled braces back to the boom, and the middle one to take the hinge bars from the bottom lid. The fitting on the end of the dipper boom goes between the lugs at the bottom, so no slots needed there.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/f4pyr9ig7/IMG_1612.jpg)
Here are the vertical bars so far. They need to have the bases slimmed down, leaving the lugs wider. Good place to break for the day...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6z7wt41x3/IMG_1613.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: mal webber on December 16, 2017, 10:57:18 PM
Nice work very interesting
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 17, 2017, 08:50:54 PM
Today I got the vertical bars for the bucket slimmed down outside of the lower attachment lugs, all fits together nicely:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dr8fpxo1j/IMG_1614.jpg)
I attached the vertical bars to the shell with three 3/32" rivets each. The vertical bars hold the horizontal ones in place with the half-laps. Then, went around and ran in a little soft solder on all the joints, partly to tie everything together permenantly but mostly to give the inside corners of the joints that slightly rounded cast look, since the shell was cast in one large piece, with just a few added-on bands and fittings.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/58yzllp8n/IMG_1616.jpg)
The ends of the horizontal bars were also taken in flush to the bucket sides with the belt sander, to match the shape of the originals. Then, marked out for the angled top line of the bucket:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3txewvvvb/IMG_1620.jpg)
The top angles down towards the back edge, then will go back up again where it ties in to the vertical bars. Here is the next spot where the wood former will come in useful, to hold the bucket in the mill vise for this next step.
I took a look at the reach on the Sherline, and quickly decided this was a good time to try out the new (to me) Grizzly mini-mill that I bought from a friends estate recently. But, then things slowed down, as I was turning it on to make the first cut. I had forgotten that these mills prefer to be started with the speed control turned all the way down, then taken up to speed when running. They REALLY prefer it, as the quick pop of the fuse reminded me (the Sherlines dont care, they will start at any setting, and I have that habit deeply ingrained in the little gray cells).
And of course I had no spare fuses that size, so off to the hardware store to buy a handfull of them (to cover the next few times I forget about the speed control).
Once back, milling the side edges to that angle went cleanly, the mini mill worked fine and had enough reach to to the side in one setup. I did change out the original 1/16" per turn feedscrews (STUPID design decision they made) with the 0.050/turn replacements from Little Machine Shop, which match the advance on the Sherline so I don't have to retrain that part of the brain also.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kugb5koc7/IMG_1623.jpg)
The first side was done, then the vise reset to the complementary angle and the part turned over for the other side. Here it is so far, ready to set it up to do the back edge:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6o0kac5rb/IMG_1624.jpg)
The front edge just needs a light roundover, will probably do that with the belt sander. The back edge will need a different setup, the wood former will be angled up in the vise to mill that.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: b.lindsey on December 17, 2017, 10:56:03 PM
That is really looking the part Chris. Very nice work.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 17, 2017, 11:44:02 PM
That is really looking the part Chris. Very nice work.

Bill
Thanks Bill, looking forward to scooping up popcorn with it while watching all the other builds here on the forum!

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jo on December 18, 2017, 08:35:00 AM
Thanks Bill, looking forward to scooping up popcorn with it while watching all the other builds here on the forum!

 :thinking: I was wondering about that. I am assuming once it is done that you might be tempted to do a bit of digging with it  :naughty: . Have you thought about how the paint on the brass will hold up to the abuse of digging something with hard gritty/lumpy bits.

Jo
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jasonb on December 18, 2017, 09:12:49 AM
I don't look for a couple of days and you are well into the build and making fast progress.

Don't think any digger buckets I have seen keep their paint on for long so having it scrape off will be in scale just the base colour of the metal will be a slight give away, suppose you could do a bit of home nickle plating if it bothered you.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 18, 2017, 02:12:33 PM
Maybe I can get the bucket powder coated? That would hold up better, wouldn't it? Or maybe a thin coat of truck bedliner?
Might just have to stick to digging in a pile of M&M's!!

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jo on December 18, 2017, 02:32:26 PM
There is a blackening stuff for brass but most of those sort of things are easily scratched off  :(

M&M's or popcorn shouldn't do any harm :popcorn:

Jo
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: b.lindsey on December 18, 2017, 02:43:58 PM
The powder coating option may be just the trick Chris. Good excuse to get the stuff to do it yourself too if you don't already have it :)

Bill
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 18, 2017, 02:56:02 PM
Great progress Chris.  :ThumbsUp:

What model Grizzly is that you have? It'll be interesting to see how much it gets used compared to your Sherline mill.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 18, 2017, 03:19:36 PM
Great progress Chris.  :ThumbsUp:

What model Grizzly is that you have? It'll be interesting to see how much it gets used compared to your Sherline mill.

Jim
Its the G8689 mill, the original owner had added the alternate column lifter assist from LMS, I changed the feedscrews to the .050/turn version. I got it to handle the parts that needed extra reach, like this bucket, and the larger gears (which I had to extend the Sherline bed to handle). I am so comfortable with the Sherline that it will stay my main machine, but it will be interesting to see if that changes. The left/right travel on the bed is not that much different, but the in/out reach is quite a bit larger, even though the travel that way is not that different. I also got an adapter to let it take the Sherline headstock thread, like on the mill holder and chucks.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dave Otto on December 18, 2017, 05:26:44 PM
The powder coat cure temperature is pretty much the same as melting point of the solder, that is unless they have some out with materials that cure at a lower temperature, you would most likely end up with a pile of pieces. I went down that road one time with a bent wire guard that I had made for one of my hot air fans.

Off to a great start! the bucket looks nice Chris.

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 18, 2017, 06:11:43 PM
The powder coat cure temperature is pretty much the same as melting point of the solder, that is unless they have some out with materials that cure at a lower temperature, you would most likely end up with a pile of pieces. I went down that road one time with a bent wire guard that I had made for one of my hot air fans.

Off to a great start! the bucket looks nice Chris.

Dave
Thanks Dave, I was just looking up powder coat kits and had the same worry - the shell is silver soldered at the main seam, but the smaller bits have soft wolder to form the rounded inside corners, and that could be an issue.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 18, 2017, 06:38:44 PM
This morning I got the rest of the top edges milled down to the angled shape of the original, the wood former is working out great as a way to hold it at different angles in the mill vise (secure as long as the shank is square and parallel sided). Started with the back edge:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kw4hnlb93/IMG_1626.jpg)
Then took a light pass along the front edge to blend it into the sides better:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/vvpoz79dz/IMG_1627.jpg)
Now, is it just me, or does this shape remind me of the old robot toys:
 :Lol:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wzeeov1ef/Robots.jpg)
Last step was to take the tops of the vertical bars down to final shape:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/iesqgcehz/IMG_1630.jpg)
Next up will be to give the bucket some teeth. The teeth along the front edge have replaceable tips, and they extend almost all the way down the inside (presumably to stiffen that section more)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6r39zk9lz/DSC_6771.jpg)
and just partway down on the outside:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/otwcqrxqv/IMG_1562.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: RonGinger on December 18, 2017, 08:55:22 PM
I can confirm that powder coat, at least the kit supplied by Harbor Freight will melt lead solder. when I got my kit I made several test pieces and the soldered ones collapsed in the oven.

It also did not do well inside objects the static charge used to stick on the powder is shielded by the outside.

I have found very little use for powder coat. I was going to try to fuse it to metal with a 40 watt co2 laser for a kind of color engraving, but I sold the laser before I got around to trying it.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 18, 2017, 09:31:31 PM
I can confirm that powder coat, at least the kit supplied by Harbor Freight will melt lead solder. when I got my kit I made several test pieces and the soldered ones collapsed in the oven.

It also did not do well inside objects the static charge used to stick on the powder is shielded by the outside.

I have found very little use for powder coat. I was going to try to fuse it to metal with a 40 watt co2 laser for a kind of color engraving, but I sold the laser before I got around to trying it.
Good to know, figured it would have problems with the solder, but wasn't sure.


Nice thing about spray paint, real easy to touch up parts after some use!


Somewhere around here I have a can of bedliner type spray, assuming it didn't get tossed in a cleanout spree. Curious to see how thick that goes pn and how well it sticks to brass....


I got a start on the bucket teeth, got square bar cut to length, trimmed for width, and started notching the base, more on that tomorrow, with pictures...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on December 18, 2017, 10:16:39 PM
I've found that paint sticks to brass much better if the material is pickled before painting. A good strong etch! Then a light dusting of zinc chromate primer.

That bucket sure does look good, Chris, and it looks big enough to handle a cold one...   :DrinkPint:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: wagnmkr on December 18, 2017, 10:46:48 PM
I go away for a week or two, and when I get back I see you are almost ready to dig ... well, with the bucket anyway! I can see you now, outside in the snow, filling and dumping the bucket and making steam shovel noises :ROFL: BE CAREFUL ... The Fun Police are out full strength this time of year.

Tom
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 18, 2017, 11:01:52 PM
I've found that paint sticks to brass much better if the material is pickled before painting. A good strong etch! Then a light dusting of zinc chromate primer.

That bucket sure does look good, Chris, and it looks big enough to handle a cold one...   :DrinkPint:

Pete
Nice tip, thanks! I'll give that a try on the bucket. Don't think I have any zinc chromate, have to pick some up if not.

Its not quite tall enough for a full beer and it has no bottom, plus a set of dribble-glass holes in the sides... Guess I'll stick to the mug!
 :DrinkPint:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 18, 2017, 11:03:32 PM
I go away for a week or two, and when I get back I see you are almost ready to dig ... well, with the bucket anyway! I can see you now, outside in the snow, filling and dumping the bucket and making steam shovel noises :ROFL: BE CAREFUL ... The Fun Police are out full strength this time of year.

Tom
Rats! I thought no one was looking! Webcams are everywhere!    :ROFL:
Going to be fun once it is on the dipper boom!  Scooping, flinging, as well as an industrial-strength backscratcher once the teeth are on!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 18, 2017, 11:22:12 PM
Speaking of the bucket teeth, got a little more done on them after dinner. Here are the blanks getting the lower ends narrowed down, like I described earlier.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/e3dbj7c6f/IMG_1631.jpg)
and cutting the slots where the upper end slips over the bucket edge. Made these slots a snug slip fit over the bucket - the outer two needed a slightly wider slot since the bucket wall curves more there.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4itowazp3/IMG_1632.jpg)
The teeth all test fit - had to file the ends of the slots to match the top of the bucket rim. I have sketched in the tooth base tip and the tooth tip on the first one, the bars are left long for now. You can see how on the inside, the teeth go most of the way to the bottom. Those parts will be tapered and rounded somewhat on the belt sander.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/j20txpl47/IMG_1635.jpg)
View from the front. The front corners wil be rounded off, and the bottom ends trimmed to final length.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gkp2qggnb/IMG_1636.jpg)
One other thing I finally found in the photos from the real shovel - I had been wondering how they kept the yoke pivot pin in place. It looked like the inner end was flareed somewhat, like the head of a pan head screw, but I had not seen how they held it from sliding back into the bucket, and had figured on some sort of cotter pin, which they used in lots of other pivot pins. Finally spotted this detail in one of my photos, there is a slot in the bracket that holds the pin on the outer side of the yoke, with a wedge that goes into a slot in the side of the pin. The hole below that probably had a set screw to lock the wedge in place. Yet another detail I missed while there, but the photos gave me an easy extra look (gotta love digital cameras - too bad the ones I worked on never made it to market).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rkaa22es7/DSC_6768.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 90LX_Notch on December 19, 2017, 01:14:29 AM
Wow, I didn't check this thread for a little bit and wham, parts are being produced at lighting speed. 

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 19, 2017, 01:19:39 AM
Wow, I didn't check this thread for a little bit and wham, parts are being produced at lighting speed. 

-Bob
Been getting that reaction a lot this week! Research and drawing stage finally over, time to make the swarf fly!
 :cartwheel:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jasonb on December 19, 2017, 08:36:36 AM
There is no stopping him :o

I wonder if the likes of powder coat and bed liner would just be a bit on the thick side even if they could be baked on and you would loose a lot of detail.

Maybe one of the firearms coatings like Gun-Kote would be better, think that can be baked at about 250F so should be under your solder temp. I seen it get good reports for hit & miss engines but not tried it as it contains something we can't use here.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 19, 2017, 06:44:16 PM
There is no stopping him :o

I wonder if the likes of powder coat and bed liner would just be a bit on the thick side even if they could be baked on and you would loose a lot of detail.

Maybe one of the firearms coatings like Gun-Kote would be better, think that can be baked at about 250F so should be under your solder temp. I seen it get good reports for hit & miss engines but not tried it as it contains something we can't use here.
According to their website, the bake temperature is 300 to 325F (they do have several versions, may be a lower temp one). I know some people that may have used it, have to check with them on their experiences on how it wears. Not sure I'd want to use something that requires baking at all, unless I picked up a small portable oven - not the kind of thing I want to use in the kitchen oven!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 19, 2017, 06:49:44 PM
Some more dental work being done (on the bucket, not me this time!). I did some belt sanding to round/taper the bases, then marked out and sawed out the shape of the teeth from the bases, then drilled/tapped for a 0-80 screw to hold the tips on:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/yj6gphwo7/IMG_1639.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/buh9pxn07/IMG_1640.jpg)
Here they are set in place on the bucket:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/jn7xhx0p3/IMG_1643.jpg)
Next step will be to drill through the shell and tooth bases, and rivet them in place. They had a vertical row of rivets down each of the bases, so will do the same on the model. I'll need to notch the wood former to allow it to slide past the tooth bases on the inside. After that, will get started on the yoke brackets that attach to the sides over the pivot pin holes, then make the latch plate that secures the bottom lid (got to look up the right term for that, 'lid' does not seem right for something on the bottom of a container).
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jo on December 19, 2017, 06:56:17 PM
.... that secures the bottom lid (got to look up the right term for that, 'lid' does not seem right for something on the bottom of a container).

Rear door  ::)

Jo
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 19, 2017, 07:10:24 PM
.... that secures the bottom lid (got to look up the right term for that, 'lid' does not seem right for something on the bottom of a container).

Rear door  ::)

Jo
Just been off looking up the dipper bucket in the old Marion catalogs and patents, and apparently 'dipper door' or just 'door' is the term they used. So, close Jo, but(t) it gave a kick out the 'door' to the 'rear' part!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on December 19, 2017, 08:14:33 PM
Funny, I would have thought that "drop" would have been in there somewhere.  Like "drop door" or "drop hatch", but there I go - thinking again.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 20, 2017, 01:21:04 AM
Funny, I would have thought that "drop" would have been in there somewhere.  Like "drop door" or "drop hatch", but there I go - thinking again.

Don
At least it was not "dumperflapper" or something like that!


 :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 20, 2017, 04:32:13 AM
Funny, I would have thought that "drop" would have been in there somewhere.  Like "drop door" or "drop hatch", but there I go - thinking again.

Don
At least it was not "dumperflapper" or something like that!


 :Lol:

I vote for "Blid" for "bottom lid".  :)  Well it seemed like a good idea!  :shrug:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on December 20, 2017, 07:37:37 AM
Hi Chris,
 You can get “cold blackening “ solutions, not sure how robust it would be digging M&M’s

The bucket is looking sweet!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on December 20, 2017, 02:55:10 PM
I used some cold gun blue years back, don't remember if it worked on brass though.
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on December 20, 2017, 03:01:37 PM
If you plan on sampling the M&M's after they've been "mined" with the bucket it might not be a bad idea to seal it with a clear non-toxic finish - no matter what treatment you use to "finish" the bucket.  We're twitchy enough already, don't need any chemical enhancements for that.  The added advantages to a clear finish are that will it make the bucket finish more robust and require less polishing of the brass in the future.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on December 20, 2017, 04:47:34 PM
I used some cold gun blue years back, don't remember if it worked on brass though.
Gerald.

Several manufacturers make a Brass Blackening solution.  A few years back I tested out two products; one called "Blacken-It" and the other "Birchwood Casey Brass Black."  In my experiment, I found the Birchwood Casey Brass Black to give me more consistent results, and a darker black color.  But neither were very scratch resistant.  I sprayed them with a clear matte finish to help provide some resistance, which helped.

Not sure a cold blackening will be a super robust solution, but it might hold up to M&Ms. :)

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 20, 2017, 06:19:10 PM
I've also tried the brass blackening solutions, okay for small parts but tough to get consistent results on larger areas, especially if solder joints are present. I think I will stick with paint, easy to touch up with the auto paints.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: b.lindsey on December 20, 2017, 06:49:06 PM
Chris, there used to be a product (if forget the brand name) but it was called stove polish. If you can find an old mom and pop type hardware store they might have some. Its a very flat black though and I guess, as the name implies, it was used to refurbish old wood burning pot bellied stoves and kitchen stoves/ovens as well. Just a thought.

Bill

Edit: The picture below is what I remember. It has probably been replaced by more modern versions though.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jasonb on December 20, 2017, 06:58:20 PM
The Gun Kote is a paint, I think it is 2hrs bake at 350 or 3hrs at the lower temp I mentioned.

I get away with baking the exhaust paint for the hit & miss engines in the oven at home :) Does not seem to taint the food the next time the oven is used

Don't worry about the metal or paint on the M&Ms its the taste of all that steam oil and coal smuts that will be flying about that you need to think about :-[
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 20, 2017, 07:13:22 PM
Chris, there used to be a product (if forget the brand name) but it was called stove polish. If you can find an old mom and pop type hardware store they might have some. Its a very flat black though and I guess, as the name implies, it was used to refurbish old wood burning pot bellied stoves and kitchen stoves/ovens as well. Just a thought.

Bill

Edit: The picture below is what I remember. It has probably been replaced by more modern versions though.
At Mom&Pop hardware stores? Wow, none of those left around here, unfortunately, the last of them retired off two years ago, the big box stores killed off most of them a long time ago. My mom shops at Amazon a lot now...  :Lol:

I looked up the stove polishes, they are still made, and are a black pigment in a wax base, only sticks on unpainted areas, and is not really meant for high friction areas.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 20, 2017, 07:17:48 PM
The Gun Kote is a paint, I think it is 2hrs bake at 350 or 3hrs at the lower temp I mentioned.

I get away with baking the exhaust paint for the hit & miss engines in the oven at home :) Does not seem to taint the food the next time the oven is used

Don't worry about the metal or paint on the M&Ms its the taste of all that steam oil and coal smuts that will be flying about that you need to think about :-[
Yes, it is a paint, Brownells carries a version of it in spray cans that looks quite nice.

For this use, I think I'll be sticking with the spray paint solution, I've found the Duplicolor flat black auto lacquers cover very well, and take a touch-up spritz nicely - been using it on some of my RC subs, which when we show at shallow pools tend to get the strip along the bottom of the bow scraped on the bottom of the pool, that paint goes on very thin and retouches easily. They have a gray/black metallic that goes on kind of translucent, but when put on over the flat black it gives a cast-iron look that I like. Its what I used on the Lombard boiler nameplate (the full size one).
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 21, 2017, 07:30:21 PM
Back on the steam shovel today, but first a side-track for the current state of the sea-turtle submarine project, since some of you asked to be kept up to date on it. I have finished carving and seal coats on the masters for the molds, going to let them set up a couple of days (the rubber mold compounds don't like freshly sealed surfaces, sometimes can cause curing issues, so better safe than sorry). The main shell and the front of the head will be cast as seperate top/bottom pieces in fiberglass, while the neck/flippers/tail will be cast in a flexible platinum-cure silicone rubber so that they can flex with the underlying cable-driven mechanism, so they look realistic rather than having obvious hinge points. The skeletal structure of a sea turtle flipper looks a lot like a stretched out version of your hand, lots of short bones, rather than a long bone/joint like your leg.
Here are the wood mold masters so far:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/g17624l53/IMG_1651.jpg)
and a close up, showing the textured skin surface, mimicing what the real turtle has - looks like a combination of fish scales and skin. I am using mold compounds and rubber casting material from Smooth-On, using their platinum-cure line which is a two-part silicone rubber, unlike the bathroom-caulk type of silicone you get at the hardware store which is single part and cures by outgassing acetic acid. They have versions for making the molds, and more flexible ones used commonly in movie makeup, including ones you can mix in pigments to paint on colors. Clever stuff. Expensive, but very good.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fofrvyal3/IMG_1652.jpg)
The red color you can see in places on the shell is the auto body filler I used to smooth out some of the glue seams and other dings/scratches left from the carving.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 21, 2017, 07:36:07 PM
Okay, back to the steam shovel build. The next parts up are the brackets that hold the large pivot pins which will hold the yoke that the bucket hangs from. I am making these out of some 303 stainless steel, had a block of that the right width/thickness, so I cut off two narrow strips and squared up the sides to size on the mill:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ukeb3or6f/IMG_1647.jpg)
then cut in the notch that will leave space for the yoke at the top (this section will get more shaping later)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bs2g03n2f/IMG_1648.jpg)
then turned them over (doing each operation on both parts before going on to the next step) and cut in the slots on the lower end.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4c36earnb/IMG_1650.jpg)
Got that done on one part, need to do likewise on the other, then will trim the ribs sticking up at an angle. Here is where this is going - the brackets are in the middle/upper area on the sides of the bucket, and will be riveted in place:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qosg73kd3/Dipper_Boom_And_Bucket.png)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 21, 2017, 09:42:32 PM
Next step on the brackets was to recess the edge,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/j0e2pfpjb/IMG_1654.jpg)
and then taper the ribs down to the lower level
(https://s5.postimg.cc/j0e2pfpjb/IMG_1654.jpg)
followed by laying out and drilling the pivot pin hole (indexed off the top corner at the edge of the vise, to get both the same quickly)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/r5w4nm0xj/IMG_1656.jpg)
then mill the slot and side arcs at the same recess level as in the first step:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mk00f8zyv/IMG_1657.jpg)
That is a good breaking point for the day. The top end of the brackets need to be rounded over, will set up the rotary table to do that next time. Then with same setup, will use a 1/4-rounding bit to radius the top edges. In the meantime, here is the part set in place on the bucket:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tn7vuvsjr/IMG_1658.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on December 22, 2017, 06:40:11 AM
Nice work on the turtle there, Chris!

And the Bucket Bracket looks mighty fine too.  I really like how it's turning out!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 22, 2017, 05:57:14 PM
Nice work on the turtle there, Chris!

And the Bucket Bracket looks mighty fine too.  I really like how it's turning out!
Kim
Thanks Kim, I hope both wind up working well!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 22, 2017, 06:08:00 PM
Next step on the dipper bucket, finishing and attaching the yoke brackets. I went back and forth on how to hold the brackets to round the ends about the pivot pins, decided on this approach. I took a short offcut from a sail-track extrusion that was in the scrap bin (left over from the main sheet track on one of the boats), which already had some 1/4" holes (same as the pivot pin), and added a short length of 1/4" bar stock - the anodizing they put on the aluminum extrusion made it a perfect press fit. With that bar centered up in the 4-jaw chuck (did the centering on the lathe, then moved over to the mill), and the part clamped to the flanges on the extrusion, I first milled the corners off the end:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bwj8d48wn/IMG_1659.jpg)
and then swapped to a small rounding over bit, and did one more pass:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4gjyray1z/IMG_1661.jpg)
Then laid out and drilled the 5 rivet holes down each side of the base portion:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kesohfkk7/IMG_1662.jpg)
With the bracket centered up on a length of 1/4" rod and clamped in place, drilled the holes that were accessible, using the bracket itself as a drill guide for the bit, holding the bucket in place by hand on the mill table (with such a small bit there is not a lot of force on the part, so did not need to clamp it down). Did that on both brackets, then ran in the first rivets, removed the clamp, and drilled the remaining few holes.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/cytevnk07/IMG_1663.jpg)
Here is the first bracket in place - used the rivet former that I made during the Lombard build to put in all but the rivets in the upper corners, used a hammer on those since the former would not fit into that last corner.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6l4bse7ef/IMG_1666.jpg)
Now there is just the latch plate for the door to make and install, and the bucket shell will be ready to prime and paint. Then it will be 12 pieces down, about 3000 to go!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: mal webber on December 22, 2017, 09:30:26 PM
That bucket is looking really good.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 22, 2017, 10:00:02 PM
That bucket is looking really good.
Thanks Mal, looking forward to seeing it with the yoke and door on!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on December 23, 2017, 12:12:24 AM
Chris, are you going to finish Marion as a new girl or an experienced lady??

Wow!

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 23, 2017, 01:09:00 AM
Chris, are you going to finish Marion as a new girl or an experienced lady??

Wow!

Pete
I'm thinking new, black frame and booms, deep red siding, unpainted steel tracks, white lettering along the siding under the roof line like their old catalog shows.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on December 23, 2017, 01:58:11 AM
Nice!! Either new or well used but not abandoned. 

 :popcorn: :popcorn:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 23, 2017, 02:22:18 AM
Nice!! Either new or well used but not abandoned. 

 :popcorn: :popcorn:

Pete
Yeah, already have one like that!  Though it is likely to get better starting in the spring, with all the new attention.   :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 23, 2017, 03:10:50 AM
Chris.........the yoke bracket came out great as a .........................I can hardly say it....................."fake"  :LittleDevil: casting! Looks great on the bucket.  :ThumbsUp:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 23, 2017, 03:14:25 AM
Chris.........the yoke bracket came out great as a .........................I can hardly say it....................."fake"  :LittleDevil: casting! Looks great on the bucket.  :ThumbsUp:

Jim
Oh, great. Now some of those casting fondlers will be invading my shop!!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jo on December 23, 2017, 07:29:02 AM
Chris.........the yoke bracket came out great as a .........................I can hardly say it....................."fake"  :LittleDevil: casting! Looks great on the bucket.  :ThumbsUp:

Jim
Oh, great. Now some of those casting fondlers will be invading my shop!!   :Lol:

From bar stock does not make it a casting  :ShakeHead: Half of the pleasure in a casting is the expectation and the required fondling, and then the second challenge is the holding while machining, achieving the item from within its casting shape constraints. Bar stock is the easy to hold and make sure the items comes out of the middle ;) and as for those bar stock fondlers  :stickpoke:

Jo
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jasonb on December 23, 2017, 08:09:12 AM
Looking good as always, should have the bucket complete by years end at this rate.

I think the biggest advantage of being a barstock muncher and fabricator is that you can model whatever you want and not be restricted to subjects somebody else has done the donkey work on. Then there is the greater number of challenges actually making the part and the reward at the end when you can say it is all your own work.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jo on December 23, 2017, 08:39:40 AM
Then there is the greater number of challenges actually making the part and the reward at the end when you can say it is all your own work.

So you are telling every one that it is harder to make engines from bar stock than castings :lolb:

Jo
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jasonb on December 23, 2017, 10:27:33 AM
Definately and even more so if you start from scratch designing your own model.

If you want to carry on the discussion can you start a new thread and move these few posts there, shame to derail this one.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 23, 2017, 01:29:50 PM
I think its just two approaches to the same problem. Among many. I could just as well create my own mold patterns for these parts, and cast them or have them cast - I have the woodworking skills and tools, but not the knowledge or skills or equipment for casting. Interesting that to make the molds, you need to start (unless 3d printing the master) from bar stock, even if its wood!

One nice thing about starting from bar stock is the ease in holding the parts, no worries about rough or angled edges, that sort of thing. A lot depends on how fine a casting is done, have seen some that are wonderfully detailed and fine, others done with very coarse sand that are not much use. There are also differences in available alloys, etc.


I'm sure we could get a good thread about it all, just like the ongoing thermodynamics thread we split off.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 23, 2017, 06:33:12 PM
Back on the bucket, last part for the shell is the latch for the door. It sits in the middle of the bottom edge on the front, and takes a bar from the door that can be released by the secondary operator to dump the bucketfull of dirt/rock/salesmen/politcians/etc.  I started with a bar of 3/8" square bar stock, milled the opening where it fits over the bucket shell, and then tipped it up to mill the angled top faces:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/a5mvpgr7r/IMG_1671.jpg)
Then four small holes were drilled in the corners of the opening to mark the shape, and the middle was milled out:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6m0xznw7r/IMG_1674.jpg)
The front face got a further recess milled into it at the same time, extending below where the part will be cut off the larger bar. After cutting it off, the bottom edge was milled square, and the edges rounded on the belt sander.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6ysc5utx3/IMG_1675.jpg)
The rivet holes were drilled in the part:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/vfai0azsn/IMG_1676.jpg)
and then the part was used as a drill guide to do the holes through the bottom of the shell:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/93cp6xntz/IMG_1677.jpg)
With that, the bucket shelll is complete, and is currently down in the paint area getting a coat of primer. Next up will be the yoke, I think, then the door and its latch mechanism.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 23, 2017, 06:53:59 PM
Chris--I am following your build and am constantly amazed with the volume and quality of your work. It is always my first stop on any of the forums I attend.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 23, 2017, 06:56:27 PM
Chris--I am following your build and am constantly amazed with the volume and quality of your work. It is always my first stop on any of the forums I attend.---Brian
Thanks Brian - hope that someday we can meet up in person at one of the shows. Or if you fall in Lake Ontario and drift south? Nah, that would be a COLD trip!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on December 23, 2017, 07:13:05 PM
In the fairly near future, printing metal parts will be easier than either bar stock or castings.  In the meantime Chris is doing a helluva job, fueled by m&m's and cookies.

Despite the bucket, I'm still more impressed with the turtle.  I could make that bucket, but the turtle?  No way!   :noidea:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 23, 2017, 07:42:59 PM
In the fairly near future, printing metal parts will be easier than either bar stock or castings.  In the meantime Chris is doing a helluva job, fueled by m&m's and cookies.

Despite the bucket, I'm still more impressed with the turtle.  I could make that bucket, but the turtle?  No way!   :noidea:
40 years of carving shows? I thought it was one of the simpler carving projects. Horse heads are still one of the biggest challenges, an amazingly complex shape!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 23, 2017, 08:22:02 PM
A couple coats of primer and black spraypaint (automotive paints dry nice and fast, go on thin), and here we go - one Marion 91 steam shovel bucket shell!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mxa8nismv/IMG_1682.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/3s6zdrtef/IMG_1683.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/ud9i9bo1z/IMG_1684.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/h93xwnbfr/IMG_1686.jpg)
For reference, this is 4-3/4" tall, gonna be a big model!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Gas_mantle on December 23, 2017, 08:24:27 PM
Incredible work Chris  :)

If there was nothing in the photo to give a sense of scale I'd have thought it was the real thing.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: mal webber on December 23, 2017, 11:28:12 PM
That is looking good, what sort of size is this going to be if the bucket is 4-3/4 tall.

Mal.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 24, 2017, 12:21:54 AM
That is looking good, what sort of size is this going to be if the bucket is 4-3/4 tall.Mal.
It is 1:16 scale, with the dipper at a 45 degree angle, it will be 55" long and 21" to top of the main boom.
The cab is 7.5" wide, 11.5" tall, 37.4" long, and the span of the front tracks is 18.25".
Gonna be a big beast! I should have a contest to guess the final weight. To make it manageable to move, the front turntable, or maybe just the booms, will be removable. I want to make the cab skin removable too, for work and viewing the inside.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on December 24, 2017, 02:38:49 AM
That's right! Never block in something that will need access later. Never fails to make life interesting.....

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 24, 2017, 03:01:22 AM
Wow what a difference paint makes! Really made it come together.  :praise2: Well done.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on December 24, 2017, 06:35:53 AM
Chris, this will sound a bit over the top, but, why not make Marion 'ride-able'? She's big enough that one could sit on the house and operate the controls..... gads that would be fun!!!

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 24, 2017, 12:56:48 PM
Chris, this will sound a bit over the top, but, why not make Marion 'ride-able'? She's big enough that one could sit on the house and operate the controls..... gads that would be fun!!!

Pete
That would definitely be fun! A very slow ride, but fun! Your shop elves have been whispering in your ears as you sleep again, haven't they?!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 24, 2017, 01:00:26 PM
Wow what a difference paint makes! Really made it come together.  :praise2: Well done.

Jim
It's amazing how some parts look better as raw metal, others just pop when painted. This one shows a lot better with the paint.


As I get ready to make the yoke and chain pulley, realized that I better source the chain now, so I can match the pulleys to it. Gotta dig out the clock catalogs and see what they have...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 24, 2017, 03:54:01 PM
Did a bunch of checking around, and found a couple of possible chains to use, got some ordered to see how it is in person for exact size and strength. There are lots of choices in the jewelry chain market, in brass and stainless, and also some available (mostly in the smaller sizes) in the ship model markets.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 24, 2017, 04:50:59 PM
I came across this picture online, figured someone out there ought to build a herd of these to help Santa next year....
(https://s5.postimg.cc/a9h5p5qif/Reindeer.jpg)

Merry Christmas all!

:bandrock:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on December 24, 2017, 09:20:03 PM
Dog, Dog, Dog ......Wow man you have flipped me out. I haven’t been that active on here lately but
Chris your the Tops man that is some awesome fabrication Dog. I will be following this awesome built keep feeding them elf’s cookies are cheap..... :lolb:

Merry Christmas .......
 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 24, 2017, 10:16:27 PM
Dog, Dog, Dog ......Wow man you have flipped me out. I haven’t been that active on here lately but
Chris your the Tops man that is some awesome fabrication Dog. I will be following this awesome built keep feeding them elf’s cookies are cheap..... :lolb:

Merry Christmas .......
 :cheers:
Don
Thanks Don! Just went and shared another handful of cookies with the elves!


Have a great Christmas!

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: wagnmkr on December 24, 2017, 10:39:57 PM
I came across this picture online, figured someone out there ought to build a herd of these to help Santa next year....
(https://s5.postimg.org/a9h5p5qif/Reindeer.jpg)

Merry Christmas all!

:bandrock:

You should be done with the Marion by March or April ... Give the shop elves a raise and some Wonder Cookies and they should have at least one ready for next Xmas ....

Tom
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 24, 2017, 11:25:25 PM
I came across this picture online, figured someone out there ought to build a herd of these to help Santa next year....
(https://s5.postimg.org/a9h5p5qif/Reindeer.jpg)

Merry Christmas all!

:bandrock:

You should be done with the Marion by March or April ... Give the shop elves a raise and some Wonder Cookies and they should have at least one ready for next Xmas ....

Tom
March or April?? THIS year? Gack...

Might be easier to get the elves started on the sleigh, skip the reindeer:
(https://s5.postimg.org/961mqwso7/Sleigh.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 27, 2017, 10:13:40 PM
Back in the shop againafter a great holiday break, time to work on the yoke that suspends the bucket from the hoist chain. Started with a block of 3/8" thick 303 stainless sawn from a larger piece of bar stock.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6l6mgwp4n/IMG_1687.jpg)
With the block clamped to the table, and the inner surfaces clear of the support blocks, milled the back face and the inner faces of the arms to shape - was checking the distances as I went, does not appear to be springing any noticeable amount, which is good.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7ngszhi8n/IMG_1689.jpg)
The outer faces of the ends of the arms were taken to thickness - this area is parallel to the inner face, since it is within the brackets on the buckets. The portion above this area tapers out to the wider part above it.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6xy0n3f47/IMG_1690.jpg)
Then the parts were clamped at an angle, and that tapered area milled to shape...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wgqd046dz/IMG_1691.jpg)
Then switched to holding it on a wood block on a faceplate held with the rotary table, and after some fiddling to get the center of the arcs in the right place, milled the inner and outer curves at the upper corners.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4gm9fuid3/IMG_1694.jpg)
The part was then given a pass to thin it down to final thickness, and then the hole that holds the pulley bracket was drilled.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ob8b1ypuv/IMG_1696.jpg)
Here is the part propped on the bucket - next up will be to start the u-shaped clamps that go around the pins at the bottom of the yoke...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tmn7mord3/IMG_1697.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on December 27, 2017, 11:35:42 PM
Chris that is beautiful.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on December 28, 2017, 12:23:31 AM
Very nice work on the Yoke, Chris!

So, are you going to work your way down from the bucket, through the boom, to the base?
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 28, 2017, 12:27:25 AM
Very nice work on the Yoke, Chris!

So, are you going to work your way down from the bucket, through the boom, to the base?
Kim
I keep changing my mind on that. At least the door will be made, then I'll decide whether to go front to back, down to the turntable. The crowd engine will be later, but may do the rest. Or, was thinking about making up the frame rails next.
Hmmm...


Will he or won't he? Tune in next week for the next episode of The Shop Elf Chronicles!!


 :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 28, 2017, 03:25:51 AM
Look good Chris.  :ThumbsUp: You're a master metal carver!  :praise2:

If it keeps snowing up you're way you're going to need to put that shovel to work.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 28, 2017, 03:32:47 AM
Look good Chris.  :ThumbsUp: You're a master metal carver!  :praise2:

If it keeps snowing up you're way you're going to need to put that shovel to work.

Jim
Thanks Jim! 


This week we have only gotten 5 or 6 inches of snow here, its just to the west along Lake Erie where they have gotten 5 FEET in two days! For us its the cold, down in single digits (F) all week,so I would rather be the boiler engineer than the guy up on the turntable this week!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Roger B on December 28, 2017, 09:01:43 AM
Finally caught up on this build, you move so fast  :) Absolutely splendid machine and turtle  :praise2:  :praise2:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 28, 2017, 06:47:03 PM
Thanks Roger!

Back on the yoke clamps this morning, cut some bar stock long enough to get out both clamps, trimmed to width, and drilled the pivot pin holes.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5lz5nfx9j/IMG_1698.jpg)
Next up was to mill the slots for the yoke arms to fit into. The arms are wider than the pivot pins, so the slots had to end just shy of the center of the pivot holes:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/i0lxns47b/IMG_1701.jpg)
Once the arms were a snug fit in the slots, moved over to the bench vise and filed the corners square so the arms would sit down in all the way. I would have done this on the mill, but the cutter was not long enough to reach all the way in from the ends.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wjt2p6pmf/IMG_1703.jpg)
and back over to the mill to drill the holes for the 1-72 cross bolts:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/a7v9vrvnb/IMG_1705.jpg)
Next I needed to mill in the half-holes in the yoke arm ends - to get a firm hold on the arms, I used a smaller milling vise to hold the part, and clamped that vertically in the larger mill vise. Then used a 1/4" end mill to plunge cut the holes, lined up with the hole in the yoke clamp. Worked very nicely.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/z14twfu3b/IMG_1706.jpg)
Here are the parts so far. Last step is to unbolt the yoke clamps, set them up on the rotary table, and mill the half-round in the ends, where it is just rough cut square now...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/z14twfmdj/IMG_1708.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: fumopuc on December 28, 2017, 07:11:05 PM
Hi Chris,
I enjoy your love for the details.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: mal webber on December 28, 2017, 09:05:01 PM
That's coming along very quick, the fine detail looks great.

Mal
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 28, 2017, 09:54:33 PM
Thanks guys!! Having fun with this one, learning some new techniques here and there.

One more operation this afternoon, set up the rotary table again with the same holder that I used earlier on the yoke brackets, and rounded over the ends of the clamp brackets. The rod steadying the parts is centered in the 4-jaw (did that on the lathe with a dial indicator) and the chuck is self-centered on the rotary table with the chuck adapter into the center hole of the table.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bj7mi76ev/IMG_1709.jpg)
Here it is assembled again, with a 1/4" drawbar bolt to hold the yoke in place. Next step is to make the short pivot pins to hold it in place for real.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/h7dx93ih3/IMG_1710.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Gas_mantle on December 28, 2017, 10:02:14 PM
Great work Chris.

The bucket is a complete model in its own right  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on December 28, 2017, 10:53:51 PM
Looking really great, Chris!

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on December 29, 2017, 10:15:44 AM
Oh Yum!!

 :popcornsmall: :popcornsmall:

That is looking just great! Nice to have the ruler for size.

Better go see how the  :popcorn: growing, got a feeling that I'm going to need more.......LOTS more!!     :lolb:

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 29, 2017, 01:46:45 PM
Oh Yum!!

 :popcornsmall: :popcornsmall:

That is looking just great! Nice to have the ruler for size.

Better go see how the  :popcorn: growing, got a feeling that I'm going to need more.......LOTS more!!     :lolb:

Cheers Kerrin
Better plant a couple of years worth!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 29, 2017, 04:35:54 PM
Quick update on the side project, the RC submarine sea turtle - been working on making the molds from the wooden master forms the last couple of days. Here is the one for the top shell:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8n7kepjiv/IMG_1714.jpg)
The orange is the silicone rubber mold itself, and the off-white surrounding it is the plastic mother-mold, which keeps the rubber in proper shape. Both are from Smooth-On, which supplies all sorts of molding products. The rubber is a two-part platinum-cure silicone rubber, can be recoated in an hour, cures in 6 hours, where the plastic is a fiber-filled two-part mix made specially for this use, it does not stick to the rubber so it can be pulled off the molded part, then the rubber section peeled away from any undercut areas. This is the first time I've tried this, so far so good. I have the molds for the bottom of the shell and the head/tail/flippers in process now. The shell and front of the head will be cast with fiberglass, the rest will be cast in another of thier rubber products, which starts as a milky color, but they have pigments you can add to the mix as well as paint on afterwards, so the flippers/tail/neck can all be articulated.

More to come as this progresses, now back to the metal shop for the Marion bucket!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 29, 2017, 07:12:10 PM
And a bit of time on the Marion this morning, spent a couple minutes making the pivot pins (simple 1/4" dia rod trimmed to length), then another half hour filing the sides of the bucket and yoke to give it more clearance - I had forgotten to leave paint thickness room, so the parts would bind up once the yoke was painted. Thats all sorted out, here it is now:

um, well HERE it is - looks like PostImage has fallen into a snowdrift, new images are showing up blank at the moment, so I'll attach it till they get it dug out and dusted off:

Okay, they are back (maybe their server went out for lunch and got lost...)   :atcomputer:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ywx8bcaaf/IMG_1715.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: sco on December 29, 2017, 09:34:16 PM
That bucket looks MEAN Chris!

Still following and enjoying,

Simon.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 29, 2017, 09:41:50 PM
That bucket looks MEAN Chris!

Still following and enjoying,

Simon.
That explains the growling from the shop!  :Lol:


I need to find some more old photos for comparison, the bucket currently on the shovel here is the 2.5 cubic yard option, the shovel came standard with a 5 cubic yard bucket, could be ordered either way or retrofitted later. Since they were digging stone at the quarry here (there is a 150 foot thick gravel/rock layer left over from the glaciers) I assume that the small bucket made more sense.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 31, 2017, 07:17:17 PM
Back in the metal shop today after a couple days on the submarine molds, started in on the bucket door. Started with some 3" wide flat brass stock, which was a little thick but it was the closest stock size. I rough cut it to shape, and trimmed the outside on the grinder to round the corners and curve the front edge.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ugk2rp4fb/IMG_1716.jpg)
With the part held in the 4-jaw on the rotary table, milled away the center of the field to form the narrow lip that goes around the bottom edge. The straight edges were easy to do, the inside curves took some etcha-sketch type handle turning. This cut was deep enough to leave the center the proper thickness, the lip around the edge was then taken down to final thickness.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/e6yi1zdtz/IMG_1717.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/xan855tqv/IMG_1719.jpg)
The surface was given a light sanding to blend in the tool marks from the mill, and the notch for the front latch plate was then milled in,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xnembcjqf/IMG_1721.jpg)
Here it is test fit on the bucket:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ugk2rpc53/IMG_1723.jpg)
Next up is the set of hinges for the door. The hinges have the pivot point offset partway up the bucket - this makes it so that the door will self-close and latch with the bucket tipped just partway back, which it would not do with a standard hinge at the corner. I made a card stock template so that I could check the fit, and decide what stock to make it out of:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/anckc6qjr/IMG_1724.jpg)
Given how wide the stock would need to be to get it out of one piece, and how much waste there would be, I think I will silver solder a length of narrower bar to a short wide piece (maybe a disc from a round bar?) and mill the shape from that instead....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on December 31, 2017, 09:20:06 PM
Nice work on the bucket door, Chris.  That hinge is going to be interesting to see take shape!

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 31, 2017, 09:41:59 PM
Nice work on the bucket door, Chris.  That hinge is going to be interesting to see take shape!

Kim
Hopefully not the Chinese curse type of interesting, as in 'May you live in interesting times'....!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on December 31, 2017, 10:06:02 PM
Guess it will depend on how mischievous you're shop elves are being, eh?  :Lol:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 01, 2018, 02:29:38 AM
I was digging in the stack of bar stock, and decided to go with a single piece of wide .1875 thick steel I have, turns out that the curved section is so large (nearly 2") that it uses less stock and time than piecing it up. The interesting part is going to be holding the stock to mill the shape, going to need s good jig arrangement, since the inner and outer arcs are not concentric with each other.  :insane:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 01, 2018, 06:05:00 PM
This morning got the two blanks for the hinges cut out of the larger bar, and started roughing down the shape. I traced off the cardstock template as a reference, and stayed a little outside the lines when roughing the shape in.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fsw5d4zp3/IMG_1729.jpg)
One down, one to go. Current thinking on the holding jig is to drill the curved tip for the pivot pin, and use that hole to bolt that end do a faceplate, and clamp the other end down to the plate. It will take a couple of holes for the bolt end, to hold the piece at the two different centerpoints for cutting the arcs.

At first I was wondering how to work out the hole positions, but then remembered that the design for the part is sitting right there in the 3D model - let the app show me the center points and offset distances!  :wallbang:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 02, 2018, 09:41:44 PM
Got the hinges milled to outside profile this afternoon...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/573jsxviv/IMG_1736.jpg)
They still need to have the sides recessed in, but before I do that I need to make up a better finger plate for the rotary table, one that I can center up quickly and have a few options on the hold-down arm. I remember Brian and George, among others showing some good ones, time to make up one for myself...

Oh, and I took the full-size-dimensioned plan set for the shovel over to the historical society today, along with the bucket, that went over very well. Also delivered a disc full of renders of the 3D model, some labeled for the controls, engines, etc, for possible use in the signage they are getting made up. Sounds like the fundraising efforts to get started on the renovations will be starting soon, which is fantastic news. The tar/whatever layer that the quarry had sprayed on the exposed metal parts is finally starting to flake off, and will be trapping water, so this is great timing to get some new stabilization work done (once it warms up a little more this spring, anyway). The coating saved it for the last 50 years, but it's now or never to get it protected for the next 50.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: b.lindsey on January 02, 2018, 10:45:35 PM
Just checking in to see how things are going Chris. Impressive as always!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 02, 2018, 10:59:26 PM
Just checking in to see how things are going Chris. Impressive as always!!

Bill
Great to have you along for another trip into swarfland!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on January 02, 2018, 11:58:45 PM
Chris,
Your scrolly-hinge thing looks good.   Do you have any pictures showing how you shaped it like that? It looks very tidy!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on January 03, 2018, 12:29:05 AM
Have you considered printing profiles at actual size, cutting them out, and gluing to the stock as a guide to cutting?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on January 03, 2018, 01:07:55 AM
Still following you Dog and enjoying it. Some nice fab work I love it gives me ideas....... :ThumbsUp:


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 03, 2018, 02:23:03 AM
Chris,
Your scrolly-hinge thing looks good.   Do you have any pictures showing how you shaped it like that? It looks very tidy!
Kim
I clamped it to the same sail track jig that I used on the yoke parts, on the rotary table it took several positions for the different arcs since they were not concentric. The pics came out bad, the dial on the camera got bumped.  :Mad:
I have sketched out a better fixture for finger clamping to the rotary table, will build that before making the recess cuts n the sides of the hinges. Should have better pics of that!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 03, 2018, 02:25:44 AM
Have you considered printing profiles at actual size, cutting them out, and gluing to the stock as a guide to cutting?
I've done that on other parts. This time I drew it by hand with a compass and ruler on heavier card stock since I wanted to hold it in place with the door and bucket to check the fit. Templates are your friends! I buy card stock by the pile.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 03, 2018, 02:26:45 AM
Still following you Dog and enjoying it. Some nice fab work I love it gives me ideas....... :ThumbsUp:


 :cheers:
Don
Thanks Don - so what great ideas are heading for the shop next?!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 03, 2018, 09:00:15 PM
I got a start on the tooling plate/hold down plate for the rotary table, something I've been wanting to make for quite a while but never took the day or so to do it. Started with a chunk of steel bar, 3.5 x 5 x 3/8" (largest I had that would not interfere with the column while spinning on the table), and laid out a grid of holes 1/2" apart across it. These holes will be threaded for the step-block hold-down clamps from the Sherline. There is also a couple rows of extra holes in between, once centered and one offset to one end. These will take a round button on the bottom to fit in the center hole of the rotary table, plus larger clearance holes to take some t-slot nuts to clamp it down to the table. There are a couple spots where these can go in, to allow offsetting the plate to one side and/or one end for doing different arcs. I'll show examples of that once it is all made.
Anyway, here was the start, drilling the first side of the grid of holes on the mini-mill, which makes for a very nice drill press setup - would have taken lots longer to do this on the Sherline mill with all the cranking needed for the Z-axis.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/vewriwasn/IMG_1738.jpg)
Then turned the plate around to do the other side - lined up with the first set of holes so the pattern is square.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wtyc7mjlj/IMG_1739.jpg)
The extra rows of holes for the t-slot nuts and center boss show in the center a few rows to the right. I'd finish it up now, but the winter archery and pistol leagues have started up, so off to prep for that. Should finish the drilling tomorrow, then will take a bit to tap holes. And more holes. Then some more...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on January 03, 2018, 10:50:02 PM
Have you considered CNCing your mills?
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 03, 2018, 10:59:32 PM
Have you considered CNCing your mills?
Gerald.
Not for long. After spending 30+ years making a living on computers, I much prefer the hands on manual controls! So, my version of cnc is Count Number Cranks!
I am using the cnc adapters on the leadscrews, just because they have a better backlash setup than the incredibly stupid way Sherline depends on a tiny grubscrew into an aluminum shaft to use the handwheel itself for a thrust bearing.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on January 04, 2018, 04:37:25 AM
That's going to be a nice fixture plate, Chris. Will be good to see it in action.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 05, 2018, 04:12:51 PM
Finishing up the fixture plate, almost ready to get back to the hinges on the bucket door. I still need to tap the rest of the holes in the plate, but will wait on that till I get the hinges done. So far I tapped enough to hold the hinges down, and wanted to see how it went together. Here is the bottom, with the centering button screwed into the center hole, and the t-nut bolts slipped through the outer holes.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/st0342wk7/IMG_1740.jpg)
The button can be placed in the center, like shown, or in several spots off to the side in that row, as can the t-nuts. There is another row for them off to the right, for use in rounding off long parts like con-rods.
Here is a view from the top, with one of the hinges held in place. I am using the hold-down set from the Sherline, but just threading the rods into the plate holes rather than into the usual t-nut slots.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ezbqf1bon/IMG_1741.jpg)
In the picture I show one of the smaller hold-downs and one of the larger ones with the step blocks, either will work with this setup. The bolt for the centering button only goes half way into the plate, so the center hole can be used both for centering the rotary table in the mill, as well as holding down parts. When profiling parts I'll put down some sacrificial material to lift it off the plate, like card stock or thin metal strips. This is a tool that I've wanted to make for years, finally got around to it! Another of those 8 year and a day projects... Could have bought one, but could not see paying the prices they want for a simple block full of holes!
Anyhow, off to lunch, then back at the hinge plates!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on January 05, 2018, 06:10:29 PM
That's pretty neat, Chris.
So how did you center the "J" on the RT?  just eyeball it? Or did you do something to help get it more accurately located?
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 05, 2018, 06:47:30 PM
That's pretty neat, Chris.
So how did you center the "J" on the RT?  just eyeball it? Or did you do something to help get it more accurately located?
Kim

For recessing the inside of the part with the recess parallel to the edge, I start out with an eyeball guess, and just finger-tighten the hold down clamps so it doesn't shift too easily, then run the mill cutter down to the existing outside edge, with the tip of the cutter just above the part. Crank the table in/out till the edge of the cutter is next to the edge of the part, then cranked the rotary table around, and watched where it wandered off - repositioned the part, did that a couple more times till the tip of the cutter followed the part nicely. Clamped down the part tight, one more check, then I moved the table over and started the real cut. The inside and outside curves on the J are not concentric, so I had to reposition the part for the other edge. After cutting each edge, I made some felt-tip marks tracing the curves on the holding table, to make the eyeball guess a lot closer when doing the opposite face and the second part. A little alcohol on a tissue takes the felt tip off again when done.

If I was doing something like a eccentric follower or a con-rod, I'd make a little disc with a bolt hole in the center, where the outside edge of the disc has a stepped lip that is a close fit to the hole in the part, then bolt that disc into the center hole of the table (same hole where the centering button is on the bottom of the table) - that would auto-center the part onto the table and the rotary table.

Great lead in to these photos - just finished recessing the first hinge plate. I started out with the inner curve of the J centered as described above, and milled a slot 0.050" deep around that arc.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/q7uigfwuv/IMG_1742.jpg)
Then re--positioned to center the outside curve, and did that section too...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wyazpw75z/IMG_1743.jpg)
I re-positioned the clamps to get the arm of the J clear, turned the rotary table till the cutter ran down parallel to the outside length of the arm and cut there, then turned the rotary table to parallel the inside of the arm, and finished up the cut:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8hstveqzr/IMG_1747.jpg)
Repeated the whole process on the opposite face of the part, so the cross section of the part looks like an I beam, and have one part done, one part to go...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5npohywjb/IMG_1749.jpg)
The ends of the recess should continue out to a point where the sides of the arm come together, but the end mills I have don't go that small, so I'll finish that off with the little air-powered rotary too with a dental bit - will show that after it is done. The inside corners up at the pivot hole will get trimmed up too.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on January 05, 2018, 07:00:17 PM
Thanks for the write-up, Chris.  Seems like a reasonable method.  Could you have done the outside curve at the same time as the inner part? so that you had a way to register the 'J' using a hole - maybe recess the sides and do the outer curve before cutting away the inner curve so that you still had material in there to support the rest of the part?  Just thinking how I might do it....

But your results are incredible, as always!   :popcorn:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 05, 2018, 07:07:41 PM
Thanks for the write-up, Chris.  Seems like a reasonable method.  Could you have done the outside curve at the same time as the inner part? so that you had a way to register the 'J' using a hole - maybe recess the sides and do the outer curve before cutting away the inner curve so that you still had material in there to support the rest of the part?  Just thinking how I might do it....

But your results are incredible, as always!   :popcorn:
Kim
I don't think so - the inner and outer curves have different center points, which make the shape such that the end at the pivot hole is narrower than the end where it meets the arm of the J.

Oh. Wait. Now I get where you are going. Have two holes in the inner area, each at the center of the two arcs, and use that with a centering pin on the table.
Yup! That would work! Could do the cut on the inner face of the part to separate that section last. The way I cut the blanks out of the larger bar meant I could not do that, since I had nested the shapes in and the center point wound up in mid-air. But, if you left the metal blank wider there, that would work fine.

Yet another proof that there is many more ways than one to skin a wildebeast!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on January 05, 2018, 07:19:15 PM
Part looks super nice and Kim gets an extra cookie 🍪

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on January 05, 2018, 07:34:14 PM
YES!  A cookie!  :cartwheel:

But I think Chris gets first dibs, since he actually did the work.  I only did a thought experiment.  And we all know reality has a way of screwing up the best thought experiment :)

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 05, 2018, 07:37:26 PM
YES!  A cookie!  :cartwheel:
Kim - Stop by, you can have TWO cookies. One extra for coming all the way cross-country just for a cookie!   :ROFL:

But I think Chris gets first dibs, since he actually did the work.  I only did a thought experiment.  And we all know reality has a way of screwing up the best thought experiment :)

Kim
We would never let reality get in the way of a plan!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: mklotz on January 05, 2018, 08:46:33 PM
We would never let reality get in the way of a plan!

I like that.  Sounds like something Adam Savage might say.  I'll add it to my file of memorable sig lines.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 05, 2018, 09:09:25 PM
We would never let reality get in the way of a plan!

I like that.  Sounds like something Adam Savage might say.  I'll add it to my file of memorable sig lines.
I always liked his line,  I reject your reality and substitute my own!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 05, 2018, 11:11:04 PM
This afternoon I got the other hinge plate recessed in, now both are ready to have the detail shaping done at the ends with an air rotary tool and dental bits. Hate the sound (flashbacks to the dental chair) but it works really well!
Here they are test fit on the bucket.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9t56huh6v/IMG_1752.jpg)
There is still a trim piece needed where the hinge goes onto the door, a wider flange at the transition point along the arm of the J, going across where the door rim sticks up where the slight gap is in this photo.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/prdw7zj4n/IMG_1753.jpg)
One of the hinges tipped up to show the range of movement. Its interesting how having the hinge pin offset means the door self-closes at an earlier angle, and also reduces the clearance to the ground needed.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/x7d5tsejr/IMG_1754.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dan Rowe on January 05, 2018, 11:21:33 PM
Wow, Chris, that bucket looks amazing. Nice tooling plate I have one on my roundtuit list.

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 05, 2018, 11:24:17 PM
Wow, Chris, that bucket looks amazing. Nice tooling plate I have one on my roundtuit list.

Cheers Dan
Hi Dan, I'd move it up to the top of the list if you are milling odd profile parts - works fantastic, no slippage or wobbling at all. Wish I had made it a long time ago. Now I just need to tap the rest of the holes in mine...

Hmmm, those shop elves just vanished into the woodwork!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 06, 2018, 08:17:22 PM
This morning I took the ends of the slots in the hinges down using a high speed air rotary tool and some dental burs, in the areas at the ends where an end mill would not fit:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/nqemf24l3/IMG_1755.jpg)
Then some more time with the rotary table setup to mill slots for the hinges in some thin bars cut from some sheet brass. These will form the wider platform that the hinges mount to on the bottom door.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/f856aql7r/IMG_1756.jpg)
Test fit of the hinge - one snapped on with a friction fit, the other had just a slip on fit:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xnpn85err/IMG_1757.jpg)
Next step was to mill the matching notches in the rim of the door for the plates to fit through. To hold this larger piece, I moved the center button and t-slot nuts over to the end position, since the door is too wide to fit between the bolt heads. I may countersink those holes to eliminate this issue for future parts.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ju1aj2z13/IMG_1758.jpg)
And here it is with the second side notched in.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6pvq6emev/IMG_1759.jpg)
Next I'll get the plates riveted in place, then will trim the ends of the plates to be flush with the profile of the door.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 06, 2018, 10:46:02 PM
One more bit of work for today, drilled and riveted on the hinge base plates:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ita8l8u6f/IMG_1763.jpg)
and a quick nibble on the belt sander to fair in the ends of the plates:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9li04jfef/IMG_1764.jpg)
Next up is to attach the hinges, which will take some careful measurement and marking to get them lined up in the slots just right. Then, on to all the latch mechanism on the bottom of the door. Here is a shot of the original to show where all that will be going:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/lalzsilsn/DSC_6778.jpg)
The chain in the upper right corner attaches to the pull-rope that goes back to the turntable. Pulling on that moves the levers, sliding back the large square bar at the bottom center of the photo, which pulls it out of the opening in the latch plate at the front of the bucket. All those levers give it some mechanical advantage - I would think there would be a lot of force needed to move the latch bar when the bucket had 15000 or 16000 pounds of dirt/rock in it!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dan Rowe on January 06, 2018, 10:57:56 PM
What resets the latch pin...gravity?

Nice work.

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 06, 2018, 11:22:29 PM
What resets the latch pin...gravity?

Nice work.

Cheers Dan

That's right, the latch bar is a couple inches square and over a foot long, so quite heavy. The top corner is angled in, like the leading edge of a normal door striker, so it can be pushed up by the strike plate if needed. I've noticed that nowhere on the entire machine is a single spring, everything is gravity actuated. Even the return on the hoist drum brake band is a large counterweight on an arm. They have designed for reliability for many years.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: RJH on January 07, 2018, 01:02:03 AM
7.5 or 8 ton is a lot of rock. How many yard bucket is that?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 07, 2018, 01:42:10 AM
7.5 or 8 ton is a lot of rock. How many yard bucket is that?
The standard model 91 came with a 5 yard bucket, this one has the optional 2.5 yard bucket, presumably since it was digging limestone rock. The Marion company also could supply extra long booms, wide set wheels, etc for special needs of customers.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 07, 2018, 07:01:33 PM
More done on the hinges today. Drilled/tapped the hinges and door for some 1-72 bolts, the heads of which were then taken off more flush to look like rivets on the inside.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fbuuwkd3b/IMG_1766.jpg)
Here is a couple shots of the hinges in place:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gqwfl9yqv/IMG_1768.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/lcsjtlx4n/IMG_1770.jpg)
Just took a slight bit of filing on the back bottom edge of the bucket to get it to swing free and close flat to the bottom.
Here is the bucket hanging straight, showing the angle that the door naturally hangs at. As you can see, the door swings back and up a bit, reducing the clearance needed underneath, but stopping at about a 45 degree angle (falling dirt/rock from the bucket can push it out vertically).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3zi9erh93/IMG_1771.jpg)
With that angle, they only had to swing the dipper boom back in at 45 degrees to get the door to swing closed, probably slightly more to get the latch to catch. A clever design.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/642mfuybb/IMG_1772.jpg)
Next up will be a start on the latch mechanism...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on January 07, 2018, 10:38:20 PM
Hi Chris,
 Them old fellas were a bit cunning!

Very very nice!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on January 07, 2018, 11:45:54 PM
Awesome Chris good attention to details. Still love it Dog..... :ThumbsUp:


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner_decoy on January 08, 2018, 12:34:28 AM
Hi Chris.....I think I understand the latching of the bucket door, and must assume that there are some levers or fulcrums functions employed to gain mechanical advantage....... however a few things escape me :facepalm:

1. is the yellow X a pivot?
2. is the red dotted line another parallel lifting bar?
3. is the green some form of limiting or pivoting adjustment point mechanism?

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 08, 2018, 02:40:06 AM
Hi Chris.....I think I understand the latching of the bucket door, and must assume that there are some levers or fulcrums functions employed to gain mechanical advantage....... however a few things escape me :facepalm:

1. is the yellow X a pivot?
2. is the red dotted line another parallel lifting bar?
3. is the green some form of limiting or pivoting adjustment point mechanism?

Derek
Hi Derek,

Yes, there are several layers of levers there that give it more mechanical advantage. I'll include a labelled picture from the 3D model, which should make it a lot clearer than the original with all the corrosion.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/48p0w7qtj/Bucket_Door_Latch.jpg)
The latch bar A is pulled on by the cross bar, which has a fixed pivot next to the 'B' label. That bar is pulled on by bar C, which is in turn pulled on by bar D, which is restrained by the crossbar F which is fixed in position. Bar D is pulled by the chain, which attaches to the middle of bar E. The lower end of bar E has a ring to take a rope that goes back to the operator. Each of these bars is set up to increase the levarage on the latch. The bar D is anchored at the bracket G - the rod coming out of G is threaded, with a nut on each end - that will give adjustment to the linkages so that wear on the latch bar can be accomodated. G looks like a hinge, but it is just a threaded holder for the rod. I have not calculated it all, but it looks like the rope would have to be pulled by the operator several times farther than the latch moves, upping the force on the latch to overcome the weight of all that dirt/rock in the bucket. It must have worked well, this machine was in operation for decades without this being changed.

Hope that helps!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on January 08, 2018, 05:02:12 AM
That looks like about 12:1 total. How far into the latch hole does the bolt go??

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on January 08, 2018, 05:45:37 AM
I came up with 8:1.  Lever D looks like about 4:1, and cross bar connected to the latch (A) looks like 2:1.  That gave me 8:1.  Is there something else I'm missing? Or maybe I miscalculated?

Still, that's a pretty good advantage!

And how was the chain pulled?  Was it on the end of a lever also, to give some additional help?
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on January 08, 2018, 07:17:36 AM
8 to one is shorter stroke for the guy pulling the rope but 12 to one means he doesn't have to pull as hard. If you assume the latch bolt moves an inch then the 8 to 12 inch distance to pull the rope is very reasonable.

There's some pretty cool engineering exhibited there.

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on January 08, 2018, 09:20:18 AM
Hi Chris. I am an avid follower of your work, although a novice in model engineering. However I do have a lifetime's experience in using various farm machinery.

Looking at your amazing 3D drawing of the bucket latch I wonder if there is a link missing at point B. On the photo of the full size bucket I had the impression of a short link which would allow the bolt to be drawn without any sideways movement which would be induced by the arc of the first lever if it pivots from a fixed point. I may well be wrong as it is not easy to see the detail clearly on the photo, in which case I hope you will forgive my intervention. I feel a bit like I'm telling God he made a mistake  :NotWorthy:

Mike.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Admiral_dk on January 08, 2018, 11:25:25 AM
I would dare to say that you have lever F fixed in each end and therefore not doing anything .... one end should be point B that isn't fixed - if I interpretere the picture right ....

Best wishes

Per
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: scc on January 08, 2018, 11:54:40 AM
The Lombard was epic enough, but I am enjoying this build even more!  Chris, how do you find the time to make such rapid progress?

Excellent thread     Thank You.           Terry
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on January 08, 2018, 12:16:42 PM
Per,

Going back to the original photo (full size bucket) my impression was that Link F was actually a fixed guide bar for Lever D but there appears to be a short link, mostly concealed by Link F, which acts as a floating fulcrum for the lever connected to Latch Bolt A to prevent it binding due to sideways pressure.

Mike.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 08, 2018, 03:30:08 PM
That looks like about 12:1 total. How far into the latch hole does the bolt go??

Pete
It only goes in an inch or inch and a half.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on January 08, 2018, 03:32:16 PM
Did the release rope go directly to the cab? It occurred to me that, if it went up to a pulley on the boom, the bucket could be tilted such that the bottom moved somewhat vertical which would reduce the load that the "puller dude" had to work against.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 08, 2018, 03:32:34 PM
I came up with 8:1.  Lever D looks like about 4:1, and cross bar connected to the latch (A) looks like 2:1.  That gave me 8:1.  Is there something else I'm missing? Or maybe I miscalculated?

Still, that's a pretty good advantage!

And how was the chain pulled?  Was it on the end of a lever also, to give some additional help?
Kim
The chain goes back to lever E, at the bottom of E, which just hangs from the boom, would be a rope going back to the operator.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 08, 2018, 03:38:10 PM
Hi Chris. I am an avid follower of your work, although a novice in model engineering. However I do have a lifetime's experience in using various farm machinery.

Looking at your amazing 3D drawing of the bucket latch I wonder if there is a link missing at point B. On the photo of the full size bucket I had the impression of a short link which would allow the bolt to be drawn without any sideways movement which would be induced by the arc of the first lever if it pivots from a fixed point. I may well be wrong as it is not easy to see the detail clearly on the photo, in which case I hope you will forgive my intervention. I feel a bit like I'm telling God he made a mistake  :NotWorthy:

Mike.
There was no short link at B, they just had that pin be a loose fit in the hole. Can't tell from that picture, but I checked that when I was there, that last hole was an oval to allow the slight side movement. You are right that it would bind if it was a close fit. What looks like a short bar in the photo is where the main bar narrows to the first link b.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 08, 2018, 03:40:05 PM
I would dare to say that you have lever F fixed in each end and therefore not doing anything .... one end should be point B that isn't fixed - if I interpretere the picture right ....

Best wishes

Per
Bar F is just a guide to keep bar  D from sagging down out of line, it is not part of the linkage itself.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 08, 2018, 03:40:57 PM
The Lombard was epic enough, but I am enjoying this build even more!  Chris, how do you find the time to make such rapid progress?

Excellent thread     Thank You.           Terry
One word. Retirement!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 08, 2018, 03:54:46 PM
Per,

Going back to the original photo (full size bucket) my impression was that Link F was actually a fixed guide bar for Lever D but there appears to be a short link, mostly concealed by Link F, which acts as a floating fulcrum for the lever connected to Latch Bolt A to prevent it binding due to sideways pressure.

Mike.
Hmmm... just went back to the photo sets, and I think you are right! I had not noticed that short link before, with all the lumps of the tar that they sprayed it with. I'll go update the 3D model on that! Thanks, that is a sharp eye to pick that up! I had thought it was just the mount post under bar F, but there is another layer there.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 08, 2018, 04:23:26 PM
Here is the 3D model updated with the new link - thanks for picking that up guys, took me a while to find what you guys were looking at!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: b.lindsey on January 08, 2018, 04:31:00 PM
I think you have it now Chris. That small link does make some sense. Even back in the day those designers were pretty sharp. It actually amazes me how much of that we have lost over the years.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 08, 2018, 04:36:42 PM
I think you have it now Chris. That small link does make some sense. Even back in the day those designers were pretty sharp. It actually amazes me how much of that we have lost over the years.

Bill
Would have been wonderful to talk with some of those designers!

I recall on the photos of the original beam engine that Willy did the model of, that they did make the occasional goof and had to cut away a bit of casting for clearance, but I'm sure the next one they made had that correction in the molds.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 08, 2018, 04:47:17 PM
As for the mechanical advantage - the measurement on the links works out to 2:1 on the first link, 3:1 on the next, and another 3:1 on the chain-to-rope link, so 18:1 overall?

Oh, and there was the question from Jim of the rope lead from that final link. It did go through a small pulley on the main boom to keep it from sagging down to the ground and keeping the angles good. That was just a guide pulley though, no change in leverage from it, but as you say it would keep the angles better.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on January 08, 2018, 05:18:56 PM
Well, not only are my estimating skills off, but my eyesight isn't so good either apparently.  I completely missed the lever E in my calcs.  Those levers still look like 4:1 to me, not 3:1.  But you've got the actual measurements Chris, so I'll go with your numbers! :)

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 08, 2018, 09:56:02 PM
On to working on the latch mechanism - going to start with the two guide for the latch bar. I started with some rough sawn chunks of 3/8" stainless, held them over the edge of the tooling plate to shape the top/sides.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/lpozwu8uf/IMG_1774.jpg)
Then, figuring that I am better off going with as-built offsets rather than designed measurements for this, I traced the opening from the bucket latchplate:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/lpozwugk7/IMG_1778.jpg)
I'll drill the corners and the bulk of the center of the hole, then finish them up with a file, then start on milling the recesses in to the side fins.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on January 08, 2018, 10:37:45 PM
Chris,

I am so much in awe of your attention to detail and amazing work rate on the Lombard that I hardly dared comment here but having seen similar types of linkage, on somewhat smaller machines I just felt something was not quite right.

At the risk of trying your patience even further I suggest the link would serve no purpose if it were directly in line with the main lever, being effectively an extension of it. My impression from the photo was more like the attached very simplified drawing. This would avoid sideways deflection of the latch. Of course I'm working in the dark since much is hidden behind the guide bar, so I may be way off the mark, but I thought the mount post appeared to be centred a bit further up in the photo  :shrug:

Mike.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 08, 2018, 10:47:06 PM
Hi Mike!  Never be wary of pointing something out to me, its very much appreciated! You make a good point, that it needs to be offset to work right. I'll take another look at the photos and see if I can work out the angle they had it at (too cold and snowy to get out in person if I can get it from the photos).


Thanks for pointing out this one, saved me rework when it would have jammed up!!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on January 08, 2018, 11:02:43 PM
Too busy on other jobs to spend any time in my own workshop at the moment so checking in to see your progress every morning is my little daily treat  :cheers:

Just make sure you don't send that snow over here to the UK, our transport system can't seem to cope with an inch of the stuff  :rant:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 08, 2018, 11:10:57 PM
Too busy on other jobs to spend any time in my own workshop at the moment so checking in to see your progress every morning is my little daily treat  :cheers:

Just make sure you don't send that snow over here to the UK, our transport system can't seem to cope with an inch of the stuff  :rant:
Uh oh. They already picked up the box of snow... A really BIG box!   :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 09, 2018, 12:32:58 AM
Last bit of shop time for the day - more on the guides. Started by drilling the corners of the holes, and then milled out the bulk of the center, ready for some filing time to square up the holes for the latch bar.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/d11up7y9z/IMG_1779.jpg)
Then turned the guides upright, and took .150 off each side to form the ribs:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/l6jwnczdj/IMG_1780.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/icgr9x4x3/IMG_1781.jpg)
And a test fit, sighting down the holes they line up well with the striker plate, so on to some filing time.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/d11up73ev/IMG_1782.jpg)

Earlier today I got the head cast in epoxy for the RC sea turtle submarine that I mentioned a few times in earlier posts. The head is cast as a solid piece, the neck behind it will be cast as a hollow tube of platinum-cure silicone rubber, and will surround the flexible mechanism to articulate the head (more on that in another week or so). The top and bottom halves of the shell have also been cast, using fiberglass matte and resin. Next steps on it will be to make the wire-controlled flex mechanisms for the flippers, neck, and tail. The break for Cabin Fever will give the resins a chance to cure up fully - the silicones wont cure properly if the resin is too new. The castings so far have come out pretty well, just a couple of small air bubble flaws to fill in.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7cvjybm7r/IMG_1783.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 09, 2018, 03:10:12 AM
Mike, think I have finally cracked it! I had been assuming that the pin at the end of the retaining bar "F"  from my earlier picture was also the pivot for the short link you describe. In going through more of the photos in detail, I found an angle that shows that there is another pivot pin for the short link, up at a 45 degree angle from the other, but mounted on the same base as the original pin. Here is a blowup of that spot with labels:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/t5suwnwav/DSC_6337.jpg)
This new pin makes much more sense for the linkage as you describe it, now I get how it would allow for the latch bar to stay centered in its holes. All that white/gray stuff over everything is the remains of the tar that the quarry sprayed on everything when they abandoned it decades ago, now cracking, falling off, and trapping water. That is the stuff that will be stripped and repainted starting this spring, hopefully, as the stabilization project gets started.

Thanks again for spotting the need for that link!  I'll get the 3D model updated to match this.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on January 09, 2018, 05:32:42 AM
Yep, two links between the bar and the bolt! Free floating...

Geez you took some great pics!

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner_decoy on January 09, 2018, 07:32:28 AM
Yes Chris......sidewise deflection or seizing of the vertical latch bolt 'A' had me concerned :facepalm:....as it would have by the designers all those years ago

This latest revision  would appear to eliminate this

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on January 09, 2018, 07:54:07 AM
By Jove, Looks like Mike cracked it!!

Had both the PC & my phone open last night, so I could zoom in on phone to the earlier pics, pretty hard to see but your latest pic shows it well...well better! The tar spray makes it hard to pick the detail. One more thought....would that little short bar be free to pivot just enuff to allow Bar B to maintain its position as it as the latch would keep it from moving anywhere? Looks also like the Bar F "support is "L" shaped, the low side the pivot point for the short bar & the long leg the anchor point for bar F.

Keep up the good work...the turtle head is looking good!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on January 09, 2018, 08:39:25 AM
Phew! Glad it wasn't all a figment of my imagination  :)

The bucket alone would be a 'project' for many of us. Really looking forward to watching this machine develop  :popcorn:

Mike.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Admiral_dk on January 09, 2018, 11:30:14 AM
I believe that the "F Bolt" is a pivot too, and that explain why they needed the "F Bar" to support it.
One link will not give a parallel movement, but two can - or in this case a short link conneted to a "link" that has an offset and it can turn on a pivot.

Sorry but no way of making a drawing to post here at work ....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 09, 2018, 01:47:08 PM
Yep, two links between the bar and the bolt! Free floating...

Geez you took some great pics!

Pete
Only a couple of thousand! Takes a lot to cover a 75' 110 ton machine!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 09, 2018, 01:49:18 PM
By Jove, Looks like Mike cracked it!!

Had both the PC & my phone open last night, so I could zoom in on phone to the earlier pics, pretty hard to see but your latest pic shows it well...well better! The tar spray makes it hard to pick the detail. One more thought....would that little short bar be free to pivot just enuff to allow Bar B to maintain its position as it as the latch would keep it from moving anywhere? Looks also like the Bar F "support is "L" shaped, the low side the pivot point for the short bar & the long leg the anchor point for bar F.

Keep up the good work...the turtle head is looking good!

Cheers Kerrin
That's my take too, the short link is on a lower post from the same bracket, you can see the flat base plate they are on, riveted to the door.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 09, 2018, 01:55:57 PM
I believe that the "F Bolt" is a pivot too, and that explain why they needed the "F Bar" to support it.
One link will not give a parallel movement, but two can - or in this case a short link conneted to a "link" that has an offset and it can turn on a pivot.

Sorry but no way of making a drawing to post here at work ....
The bar F is there to keep the other long bar, with the chain, from sagging down. This is not a watts type parallel motion setup, the latch bar is in two separate guides to keep it straight, this short link is just to prevent binding of the cross link. At least that is my current understanding. If you can sketch up something later that would be great. Mocking it up with a bar, it seems to work well with just the one pivot on the short link. I'll update the 3d model and post that later this afternoon.


Thanks to all!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 09, 2018, 07:21:37 PM
And here is the updated drawing with the short link pivot moved to where the green arrow is pointing, underneath the retaining bar. I've run some mockups, and it all seems to be able to move cleanly now. It takes very little movement on the short link to let the main latch bar slide cleanly inside its two guides.

Thanks you guys!!

 :cheers:

(https://s5.postimg.cc/fo9e0d4jr/Latch_2.jpg\)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on January 09, 2018, 08:18:13 PM
This little investigative set of posts is a testament to the quality of our membership:  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: guys.

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Admiral_dk on January 09, 2018, 09:14:42 PM
Ah I think I got it now - the problem was that I "Ass-U-Me-d" that the bar across the latch and the latch solid fixed together  :facepalm: sorry  :-[
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 09, 2018, 09:56:33 PM
Ah I think I got it now - the problem was that I "Ass-U-Me-d" that the bar across the latch and the latch solid fixed together  :facepalm: sorry  :-[
Ah, no, its another pivot there.


Sounds like a consensus!  Thanks guys!!

Between bouts of packing for the show, one of the square holes in the latch guides is filed to shape. One more, and I can get them drilled and riveted on.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 10, 2018, 03:54:18 PM
Got the holes squared up in the other guide bar, and drilled/riveted them in place. Drilled one side of first rail, put in the rivets to hold it, then drilled the other side.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/z31sa8wif/IMG_1784.jpg)
Same on the second rail:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/d3vdn1ndz/IMG_1785.jpg)
And the measuring/marking worked, it fits!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fl74uaruv/IMG_1787.jpg)
The latch bar is not to length yet, just a piece from the stock bin for test fit.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on January 10, 2018, 04:49:23 PM
Great start on the latch, Chris!
Now for all the lever action!  :popcorn:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: b.lindsey on January 10, 2018, 04:53:45 PM
Chris, can you do an animation in your software to show the link movement(s). Still trying to wrap my head around it all :)

Bill
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 10, 2018, 06:59:06 PM
Chris, can you do an animation in your software to show the link movement(s). Still trying to wrap my head around it all :)

Bill
Should be able to, probably after CF, today is packing up day, and got archery league tonight. With the sudden warm weather, taking down Christmas lights now!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steam Haulage on January 10, 2018, 07:33:59 PM
Hi Chris,

As you know I am trying to draw the 19-RB. I have revisited your Marion thread and see that in posts 208 and 214 you have drawn the tracks in, I presume in Fusion 360. How easy was it?

Inventor seems to have a mind of its own when attempting to draw anything similar it has all sorts of design assistant options for roller chains, v-belts, gears etc. etc  . . . All the Utube videos on Caterpillar tracks in Inventor are based around modern track plates. Consequently the programme appears to force me into using the roller-chain method. I have Fusion 360 as well  and am wondering if the drawing is simpler. I can draw the sprockets and as you have seen the track plates but it's the assembly of the 3 parts that I cannot yet solve.

Perhaps Fusion allows the use of a path to generate the track assembly.

Do you have any thoughts?

Best regards
Jerry :happyreader:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gbritnell on January 10, 2018, 08:03:08 PM
Chris,
 I dare say this will most likely be more spectacular than the Lombard, if that's at all possible.
I really enjoy following along with your construction processes because I learn something new every time.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 10, 2018, 08:50:23 PM
Hi Chris,

As you know I am trying to draw the 19-RB. I have revisited your Marion thread and see that in posts 208 and 214 you have drawn the tracks in, I presume in Fusion 360. How easy was it?

Inventor seems to have a mind of its own when attempting to draw anything similar it has all sorts of design assistant options for roller chains, v-belts, gears etc. etc  . . . All the Utube videos on Caterpillar tracks in Inventor are based around modern track plates. Consequently the programme appears to force me into using the roller-chain method. I have Fusion 360 as well  and am wondering if the drawing is simpler. I can draw the sprockets and as you have seen the track plates but it's the assembly of the 3 parts that I cannot yet solve.

Perhaps Fusion allows the use of a path to generate the track assembly.

Do you have any thoughts?

Best regards
Jerry :happyreader:
Well, I drew a single plate in fusion, then manually copy/pasted/moved it to form the collection of plates. They do have a path pattern tool you can use for it, but getting the length and position of that path accurate enough to make the last meet the first is beyond me,and doing it manually was pretty quick. I used the path pattern to do the chains on the turntable and boom though. Fusion can animate things in a line or circle, they don't yet do things like a chain around two sprockets. Mine just needed to be designed, I don't need it to animate.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 10, 2018, 08:55:32 PM
Chris,
 I dare say this will most likely be more spectacular than the Lombard, if that's at all possible.
I really enjoy following along with your construction processes because I learn something new every time.
gbritnell
Thanks very much George, I'm a big fan of your work! This is looking to be a huge bit of fun for me, combining all the mechanisms and types of work in one thing that (hopefully) operates. Maybe its my background as a carver/sculptor that makes me take a different approach to some of the problems. Or that I have no formal training in machining, so I pick different methods. Anyway, its fun!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on January 11, 2018, 03:51:37 AM
Chris,
 I dare say this will most likely be more spectacular than the Lombard, if that's at all possible.
I really enjoy following along with your construction processes because I learn something new every time.
gbritnell
Thanks very much George, I'm a big fan of your work! This is looking to be a huge bit of fun for me, combining all the mechanisms and types of work in one thing that (hopefully) operates. Maybe its my background as a carver/sculptor that makes me take a different approach to some of the problems. Or that I have no formal training in machining, so I pick different methods. Anyway, its fun!

It's funny Chris...............as I've been reading your posts................I've been thinking the same thing. You're taking machines and tools that normally create parts that are made to some exact measurement and are creating parts that I'd more associate with art. Well done!  :ThumbsUp:

Jim

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 15, 2018, 07:32:28 PM
Back from Cabin Fever, will be starting up the Marion build again this week - see photos over on the CF thread in the Shows forum....

One other bit of news I can finally announce after another meeting with the editors at the show. The build of my Lombard Log Hauler will be starting as the cover story in Live Steam/Outdoor Railroading magazine starting in the March issue! It will include full plan sets for the model, along with much of what you read in the build thread on the forums here. Very exciting (for me, anyway!). The build will be spread over a bunch of issues, they dont know how many yet, but probably 8 or 10.

Back to unpacking the rest of the models/tools/purchases from the show, then probably more work on the Marion bucket tomorrow...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on January 15, 2018, 10:11:03 PM
Congratulations on the Live Steam deal!  That is super cool :)
Maybe I'll have to sign up for the Live Steam mag now.  I've been considering it, but haven't done it yet.

That is really great Chris!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 15, 2018, 11:00:45 PM
I dare say this will most likely be more spectacular than the Lombard, if that's at all possible.

No doubt with respect to the first part...as to the last part...he could have done the Stanley....durn him.  ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 15, 2018, 11:07:57 PM
I dare say this will most likely be more spectacular than the Lombard, if that's at all possible.

No doubt with respect to the first part...as to the last part...he could have done the Stanley....durn him.  ;D
After the shovel, promise!!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 15, 2018, 11:09:49 PM
Congratulations on the Live Steam deal!  That is super cool :)
Maybe I'll have to sign up for the Live Steam mag now.  I've been considering it, but haven't done it yet.

That is really great Chris!
Kim
If they could get more article submissions, especially on things other than just trains, they'd go back to monthly issues. They pay for articles, everyone start writing!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 15, 2018, 11:24:22 PM
Congratulations on the Live Steam deal!  That is super cool :)
Maybe I'll have to sign up for the Live Steam mag now.  I've been considering it, but haven't done it yet.

That is really great Chris!
Kim
If they could get more article submissions, especially on things other than just trains, they'd go back to monthly issues. They pay for articles, everyone start writing!!

Oh, missed that. Congratulations!!

There's a lot of members who could provide very interesting articles.
I could only comment in the peanut section.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 17, 2018, 08:30:18 PM
Thanks Zee!

And pass the peanuts!

------

Yes, I am back working on the model again, been spending most of the time in Fusion working on the rest of the plan sheets, so nothing to show from the shop. Also been getting some time in on the sea turtle sub mechanisms.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on January 18, 2018, 03:31:19 AM
Back from Cabin Fever, will be starting up the Marion build again this week - see photos over on the CF thread in the Shows forum....

One other bit of news I can finally announce after another meeting with the editors at the show. The build of my Lombard Log Hauler will be starting as the cover story in Live Steam/Outdoor Railroading magazine starting in the March issue! It will include full plan sets for the model, along with much of what you read in the build thread on the forums here. Very exciting (for me, anyway!). The build will be spread over a bunch of issues, they dont know how many yet, but probably 8 or 10.

Back to unpacking the rest of the models/tools/purchases from the show, then probably more work on the Marion bucket tomorrow...

This is really great news Chris........congratulations.  :ThumbsUp:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: jschoenly on January 18, 2018, 02:29:14 PM
Chris - You are out of control.  In a fantastic and crazy manner that I can dig (get it, shovel, ha!), you are out of control.  The modeling, rendering, animation, the assemblies (the chain everywhere over pulleys??) and all of it is just awesome.  I wish I was a little less crazy at Cabin Fever to get to sit down and chat with everyone more, but it was great to at least chat for a few.  Congrats on the articles coming and keep up the great work.  I will certainly be following and now I know who I'll come to with Fusion Questions!  :)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 18, 2018, 03:10:39 PM
Chris - You are out of control.  In a fantastic and crazy manner that I can dig (get it, shovel, ha!), you are out of control.  The modeling, rendering, animation, the assemblies (the chain everywhere over pulleys??) and all of it is just awesome.  I wish I was a little less crazy at Cabin Fever to get to sit down and chat with everyone more, but it was great to at least chat for a few.  Congrats on the articles coming and keep up the great work.  I will certainly be following and now I know who I'll come to with Fusion Questions!  :)
It was great to meet a bunch of the group in person finally! I had a great time at the show, car came home a bit heavier with the purchases there, great to see the products at the vendors in person to see what the tools/castings are really like.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 18, 2018, 03:24:41 PM
Another update on the sea turtle sub - got the articulation mechanisms worked up yesterday that will go in the neck, tail, and flippers. They all have a flexible plastic rod as a core, and Kydex plastic panels along the length with stainless steel cables down the sides. The cables are fixed at the outer end, and flex the assembly when the inner ends are pulled. Here is a picture of what they look like at rest (picture is on its side, the camera flipped it)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/vvixvqbiv/IMG_1880.jpg)
The one I am holding is for the neck. In the background, you can see two of the flipper ones that already have a curve in them - the cables on the sides were epoxied in the pulled-to-one-side position, to give them a curve to fit the shape of the front flippers, which curve out from the body and back along the sides of the shell.
And here is what happens when I pull the cable on the left, it curves the whole thing to the left:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wl1q83js7/IMG_1881.jpg)
And sqame on the right cable, curves to the right:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tflpv1inr/IMG_1879.jpg)
Here is a better shot of one of the flippers pulled to one side with a blank background:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/hp370hsxz/IMG_1878.jpg)
These will be surrounded by molded rubber 'skins' for the flippers, cast from the master parts that I showed in earlier posts.

Anyway, enough side tracking (swimming?) - back to the Marion shovel bucket for today!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 18, 2018, 04:58:46 PM
Back on the Marion bucket again...  Started by milling the tab on the end of the door latch bar, and drilling a close fit 1-72 clearance hole.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/b6ey0rvon/IMG_1883.jpg)
Then cut it to length, and filed a radius on the end so that it will push back on the striker plate when closing, just like a normal house door latch does.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dazb1v513/IMG_1885.jpg)
Now on to the fiddly-bits - the levers that make up the latch mechanism. The first lever is wider than the others, so started with some wider bar, drilled/tapped the 1-72 holes:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/jooe54x2f/IMG_1886.jpg)
The links were cut off from the bar, and the taper and round ends done on the belt sander. Then made up the second link, and also the short link for the other end. Here it is assembled (the bolts will be trimmed to length later, easier to handle with them left long for now).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/agw5ofiaf/IMG_1889.jpg)
and test fit where they will go:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4372l65on/IMG_1890.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on January 18, 2018, 05:08:29 PM
Congrats on the magazine coverage Chris well deserved. .... :praise2:

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 18, 2018, 06:30:23 PM
Thanks Don!

Next linkage in line is the final cross-link, with a split yoke at one end that goes around the middle link and anchors at the end to an adjusting screw. To make the yoke, I took two lengths of flat stock, bent a jog in the middle (reused the chain bending jig from the Lombard) and clamped it with a spacer.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wnusme7c7/IMG_1891.jpg)
After a little silver solder and a little heat from the torch, then a little filing, I had a little link ready for some little drills and 1-72 threads!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/abwzt0nnr/IMG_1895.jpg)
Here it is test fit on the bucket.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/s1yoe1tiv/IMG_1896.jpg)
Next up is to make the brackets that the short link in the upper left bolts to, and the adjusting bracket that the lower right of the yoke attaches to. The left end of the yoke bar gets the chain back to the lever on the dipper boom.

How many of you are getting the song stuck in your head, The Ankle Lever attaches to the, Leg Lever...!  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 19, 2018, 08:44:01 PM
More work on the bucket door latch mechanism. For the base that the short link and the retaining link bolt into, I drilled/tapped a couple short bits of round rod on the lathe, cut them to length, and silver soldered them into holes in some brass plate - left the plate large to give something to hold onto.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6gpgw2w1z/IMG_1901.jpg)
Then cut off and filed the plate to shape,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/s34hd42c7/IMG_1904.jpg)
and riveted it in place on the door. With this in place, the short link proved its worth (thanks again for spotting it guys!), and the latch is moving properly.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wdj584eyv/IMG_1905.jpg)
Then on to the adjusting bracket, which will hold a threaded rod that the yoke link anchors to. The upright was cut/drilled from some brass, with a hollw threaded steel rod down the center.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ow9xthplz/IMG_1906.jpg)
That block was screwed to a brass plate, and another plate cut and clamped to it to form the angled brace. The parts were then all silver soldered together. The notch in the angle plate is to clear the rivet hole at the end of the bracket.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/g193iydo7/IMG_1908.jpg)
Here is the bracket all trimmed down and filed to shape, set in place on the door.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5fp86dmlz/IMG_1909.jpg)
Last bracket is to hold the other end of the retaining bar. Here it all is assembled onto the door. Still need to make the retaining bar and the threaded rod for the yoke. One thing I realized when moving the links around to test it, was that the retaining bar and its rear post do two things - keeps the link under it from rotating down too far, and also acts as a limit stop so the chain cannot be pulled too far and pull the latch completely out of the guides. Now it makes more sense why they had that retaining bar.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/l16jqcdzr/IMG_1911.jpg)
Once those last parts are made, I'll try and do some pics and/or video to show the motion of it. There is already enough there to see that it auto-latches the door when the bucket is tipped down! 
 :cartwheel:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 19, 2018, 08:48:51 PM
Oh, and to confirm the measurements from the drawings a week or so ago - the linkage so far has a reduction in motion from the end of the final link (where the chain will attach) to the latch bar itself of 6 to 1. The lever on the boom that the chain runs to will add another 3 to 1 reduction, so the final levarage will be 18 to 1 in how far the operator has to pull the rope to the movement of the latch bar.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on January 19, 2018, 09:41:59 PM
Amazing progress on your bucket latch system there, Chris.

And I love the turtle mechanism too, very clever! :)

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on January 19, 2018, 11:28:16 PM
Great to see it coming together Chris  :cartwheel:

I'm glad my tiny contribution was useful but bad news about that BIG box of snow you sent as a thank you gift . . . it must have melted in transit so we just got rain.

Now, if I can just find your secret for slowing down time I might get some workshop time of my own . . .  :thinking:

Mike.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 19, 2018, 11:36:24 PM
Great to see it coming together Chris  :cartwheel:

I'm glad my tiny contribution was useful but bad news about that BIG box of snow you sent as a thank you gift . . . it must have melted in transit so we just got rain.

Now, if I can just find your secret for slowing down time I might get some workshop time of my own . . .  :thinking:

Mike.


 :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner_decoy on January 20, 2018, 01:08:34 AM
Chris....will you not have to increase the chamfer angle or face depth on the main latch bolt for clearance here?............... Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 20, 2018, 01:15:37 AM
Chris....will you not have to increase the chamfer angle or face depth on the main latch bolt for clearance here?............... Derek
Doesn't need it - that cross lever is wider in the center, tapers to each end, which is enough to handle the small angle it pivots. If that lever were parallel sided, the it would need the relief you describe, but Marion took that into account, I have copied their shape. It doesn't show in the pics, but there is about a 8 or 10 degree angle to each side.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gbritnell on January 20, 2018, 12:43:28 PM
Hi Chris,
Simply put, outstanding fabrication!!!!
gbritnell
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on January 20, 2018, 03:07:45 PM
That release mechanism in an interesting design. I wonder how much of the design was engineering and how much was.......once the pin was in place............them just adding livers, pivots, and brackets until an operator pulling on a rope could release the pin.  :shrug:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 20, 2018, 05:53:06 PM
That release mechanism in an interesting design. I wonder how much of the design was engineering and how much was.......once the pin was in place............them just adding livers, pivots, and brackets until an operator pulling on a rope could release the pin.  :shrug:

Jim
By that time the basic steam shovel design had been around for about 50 years, so I'm sure a lot of things got fine tuned, tweaked, and changed!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 20, 2018, 08:04:35 PM
Got the last couple of parts on the bucket door made today, the retaining bar and the adjusting rod. Here are a couple of photos - first shows the linkage in the 'latched' position.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/krvnete2f/IMG_1914.jpg)
and here it is in the 'unlatched' position, after the chain has been pulled and the latch bar retracted.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/n97em35on/IMG_1915.jpg)
As you can see, the chain end of the final bar moves a lot, the latch bar just a little. The short link we discussed does not move a lot, but it does swing and keep the latch bar from jamming in its guides. I'm definitely going to have to go light on the paint on these parts, to keep them from sticking!

And here is proof that it all works, a short video of opening/closing the door a few times:
rTgQ8ZHEOVM
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: fumopuc on January 20, 2018, 08:12:15 PM
Excellent job.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on January 20, 2018, 10:14:41 PM
So the latch closes via its own weight?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 21, 2018, 12:49:41 AM
So the latch closes via its own weight?
That's right, they used gravity for everything possible, there are no springs anywhere. Even the return on brake lever, etc is by counterweights. On the real thing, that latch bar must weigh quite a lt, on the model best I can do is hope the brass is heavy enough, though I could always sneak in a tiny spring if its not reliable.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 21, 2018, 12:52:37 AM
Excellent job.
Thanks Achim, I am quite pleased with how it is going.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: sco on January 21, 2018, 07:55:57 AM
That action looks perfect and sounds good too!

Great job Chris.

Simon.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on January 21, 2018, 10:31:38 AM
Hi Chris,
 Now that is very slick! Great job!

Right back to  :popcorn:

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: scc on January 21, 2018, 01:53:16 PM
Excellent result...I love the positive click when it shuts :ThumbsUp:    A  lovely model in it's own right. Well Done.         Terry
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 21, 2018, 02:26:23 PM
Thanks guys!

The one thing I have not been that happy with is the durability of the paint (duplicolor auto lacquer) with all the handling. I just ordered a can of DuraBake gun finish to try, been recommended to me from several sources, it normally requires an hour back at 350 but can also cure with just 180 for 3 hours, so will be safe for the soldered parts on the bucket shell. Should be interesting to see how it compares - I'll update after that arrives and I can test it, in a week or two...

Next up I think is the dipper boom. The real ones are in two long beams, each a oak spar with a steel plate wrapper, all bolted/riveted together. The rivets were ground off flush, so the boom would slide through the opening in the main boom smoothly. I need to look at the stock I have to decide if I will piece it up or just make it from one piece of bar stock. The seams and rivets may just be simulated, lightly cut in. The gear rack will be interesting to do, never cut a 'flat' gear before, may need to make up a longer arbor for the gear cutter to get the length needed.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 21, 2018, 04:27:22 PM
I checked my metal stocks - I have some bar I could use to make the dipper handle (boom) out of one piece, but it would be quite heavy. So, decided to piece it up with the wood core like the original and rivet it together. I didn't have enough thin/wide stock (dipper needs 1/16" x 1", main boom 1/16" x 2" stock for the sides), so sent in an order to McMaster for some, should have it in a few days if they hold true to form.

So, in the meantime I'll start on the fitting that goes between the end of the handle and the bucket - on the original this was a big casting, I'll be piecing it up out of bar stock and milling in the fingers. Here is what it will look like:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/b1uhcsd7b/Dipper_Front_Fitting.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/t4nk40grr/Dipper_Front_Fitting2.jpg)
Should be able to make it out of two plates, silver soldered together. The tapers will require the tilt table on the mill, most likely. The two booms go into the slots shown in the second photo, the fingers on the front in the first photo fit into the back of the bucket.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 21, 2018, 09:08:48 PM
Started on the dipper end fitting - got the two blocks to make it up cut down and trimmed to length/width from larger bar, and started in on milling the slots for the dipper side rails to fit into. I am going to mill the slots in both parts first, then silver solder them together, so that the slots can go all the way through to the ends.
Here are the raw blocks:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mkpdbz55j/IMG_1916.jpg)
and after milling the slots in the lower block.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/x7j6hel0n/IMG_1917.jpg)
The slots are .375 wide, and need to be positioned properly in relation to the sides of the block, so I started with a .250 end mill, and made several passes to get the slots started and taken to depth, staying within the layout lines I sketched on. Then, once I was to the full depth, made passes on just the inner edges of each slot to get those edges the same distance from the sides and the right distance (.625) apart. Then, took each slot to its desired width one at a time.
Next time I will do similar steps to the end block to put in its pattern of slots, then screw them together for silver soldering (I've tried using wire to hold parts together, but too often wind up melting through the wire and the parts shift).
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: b.lindsey on January 21, 2018, 09:38:06 PM
Amazing stuff Chris, I am just checking in on progress and saw the video for the first time....love it!!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 21, 2018, 09:40:22 PM
Kerrin said it well..."very slick".
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 21, 2018, 10:05:01 PM
Laying out the stock for the booms, and I'm getting a better feel for how big this beastie is going to be! The sides on the main boom are nearly 2 inches tall!   :paranoia:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 22, 2018, 12:43:04 AM
Next step on the dipper handle front fitting, milled the slots in the upright block. These slots dont go all the way through, there is a cross-bar part way along it. So, took out the bulk with the 1/4" cutter like on the other block:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/51b14k413/IMG_1918.jpg)
then came back with a smaller cutter to make the corner radii smaller:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fbdg3t9c7/IMG_1919.jpg)
Here are the blocks so far, ready to drill/tap for some small screws to hold them together for silver soldering - they will go into the narrow parts of the webs, since the thicker section will have a pivot pin hole bored through, and I don't want to interfere with that.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3z0um05s7/IMG_1920.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/4ojmydth3/IMG_1921.jpg)
The blocks still need the bolt/pivot holes drilled, as well as having some of the faces beveled - going to have to make sure I do that in an order which allows for holding everything in the vise.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ClaytonFirth on January 22, 2018, 12:56:22 AM
Brilliant work Chris.
I'm a relative newcomer hear, and only found your Lombard project last week. I'm now up to date with the Lombard and the Marion projects and would just like to add my sincerest appreciation of the work you do. Bloody amazing. One day hopefully i might have enough of a workshop to do just part of what you do. For now, i just satisfy myself with designing models in Fusion.

 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 22, 2018, 01:15:51 AM
Brilliant work Chris.
I'm a relative newcomer hear, and only found your Lombard project last week. I'm now up to date with the Lombard and the Marion projects and would just like to add my sincerest appreciation of the work you do. Bloody amazing. One day hopefully i might have enough of a workshop to do just part of what you do. For now, i just satisfy myself with designing models in Fusion.

 :popcorn:
Thanks Clayton! I took it the other way around - workshop first, then learned(ing) Fusion, having a ball with both!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on January 22, 2018, 03:57:41 AM
Hi Chris,
This  :popcorn: munching is getting addictive! Having to wash it down :DrinkPint: !

Just one question on the drawing of the front fitting you show 4 “slots” on the machined part you have cut only 2, with my  :DrinkPint: did I miss something or have you got a cunning plan & all will be revealed in the next installment?

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 22, 2018, 04:29:55 AM
Hi Chris,
This  :popcorn: munching is getting addictive! Having to wash it down :DrinkPint: !

Just one question on the drawing of the front fitting you show 4 “slots” on the machined part you have cut only 2, with my  :DrinkPint: did I miss something or have you got a cunning plan & all will be revealed in the next installment?

Cheers Kerrin
Ding! 


We have a winner!!


Excellent catch - after I posted the drawing, i was looking back at my photos to see where the bolts were, and noticed that I had goofed on the drawings. Well, sort of. I had drawn that part from one of their catalog illustrations, which did not match this shovel. So, I fixed the 3d model before cutting the slots. I was wondering if anyone would notice, was going to wait a couple days before showing the correction.


Take two cookies out of petty cash!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 22, 2018, 04:32:14 AM
Oh, and there will be 2-1/2 slots, the top bar in the middle gets divided with a narrow slot, got tired and stopped before that last cut. If you look really close in the last photo, you can make out that detail in the plan behind the part.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on January 22, 2018, 05:23:58 AM
Oh GOODIE cookies!

Here’s me thinking it was just  :DrinkPint:

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Admiral_dk on January 22, 2018, 11:16:10 AM
Hi Chris

Did you post the pictures differently in post #564 ...?
I ask because I can't see them - they are just marked with an X in a small black square and nothing happens when I click on them  :'(
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 22, 2018, 01:34:45 PM
Hi Chris

Did you post the pictures differently in post #564 ...?
I ask because I can't see them - they are just marked with an X in a small black square and nothing happens when I click on them  :'(
Post 565 maybe? They are same as the other ones, through Postimage.org. sometimes that site clogs up for a while. I am seeing all of them at the moment, anyone else having trouble seeing them?
Next step on the dipper handle front fitting, milled the slots in the upright block. These slots dont go all the way through, there is a cross-bar part way along it. So, took out the bulk with the 1/4" cutter like on the other block:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/51b14k413/IMG_1918.jpg)
then came back with a smaller cutter to make the corner radii smaller:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fbdg3t9c7/IMG_1919.jpg)
Here are the blocks so far, ready to drill/tap for some small screws to hold them together for silver soldering - they will go into the narrow parts of the webs, since the thicker section will have a pivot pin hole bored through, and I don't want to interfere with that.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3z0um05s7/IMG_1920.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/4ojmydth3/IMG_1921.jpg)
The blocks still need the bolt/pivot holes drilled, as well as having some of the faces beveled - going to have to make sure I do that in an order which allows for holding everything in the vise.

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Admiral_dk on January 22, 2018, 08:57:13 PM
It might just have been a temporary snag as you suggest.

I see them just fine here at home now - I'll check again at work tomorrow.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 22, 2018, 09:20:23 PM
It might just have been a temporary snag as you suggest.

I see them just fine here at home now - I'll check again at work tomorrow.

Thank you.

 :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 22, 2018, 09:29:55 PM
Bunch more done on the dipper fitting today - started out by finishing up the slots on the vertical plate, adding the middle one on the top, and taking a pass from the ends to square up the corners. This picture shows the right and middle one squared up, other 3 still to be done.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kz2aeisbr/IMG_1922.jpg)
and here it is test fit together, with a pair of 1-72 screws through the webs at the bottom to hold it together - this will be used for the silver soldering step.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bra1xunuf/IMG_1926.jpg)
Next up was to get the pivot hole drilled through the vertical plate:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tu34p1otz/IMG_1927.jpg)
Then used that hole to set the height in the mill vise, took a pass with the part moved to several angles, using the pin to keep the cuts concentric to the hole:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/thbqivtpj/IMG_1928.jpg)
Then drilled the bolt holes that will attach the bottom plate to the booms, and set it at an angle for milling the top surface down:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kmaw8c2c7/IMG_1929.jpg)
And a nibble off the thin end to set the angle there as well:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/v94pds5cn/IMG_1930.jpg)
The vertical plate also gets its outer face tapered, leaving a narrow rib in the center:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/x0xo8nm4n/IMG_1932.jpg)
And the final milling step, tapering the left/right edges of the bottom plate, using the fixture plate on the rotary table to align the cut to the mill cutter:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/k9ji2677r/IMG_1933.jpg)
Then bolted the two parts back together, and did a test fit on the bucket - just needed a little adjustment with a file to get it to seat in fully, and held with a cross pin. Here are some pics of that:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/lol2qxilj/IMG_1934.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/5qcd0s8xz/IMG_1935.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/ctk8gem3b/IMG_1936.jpg)
So, just need to get the fitting silver soldered together and cleaned up. Time for a cookie!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on January 22, 2018, 10:37:44 PM
Whew!  That's a lot of work for one piece, Chris!  You must me exhausted.  I am just watching your updates.

Enjoy the cookie, you've earned it!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: J.L. on January 23, 2018, 12:21:36 PM
Chris,

This is just outstanding machining and precision with details. You should be very proud of this significant part of the machine.

 Just think of how much work this device will be asked to do if in the real world. So much technology was called for with its design.

A stunning thread!  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 23, 2018, 02:27:00 PM
Thanks guys! They definitely built them well, this one was in operation for decades at the quarry. Yesterday I was digging  :Lol:  through the patent dates on the plaque on its side, which lists just patent dates, and matched up all but 3 of them. The leaders at Marion had quite a lot of patents!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 23, 2018, 07:36:52 PM
And one more set of brackets to make for the bucket, these go on the top of the boom, with a s-shaped bar running up to the top of the bucket. Got the main shape nibbled out of a bar of 303:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8l2j4dl4n/IMG_1937.jpg)
Then rounded the tops with several passes, again using the drill as a pivot to position the part at a number of angles in the vise.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qb47pf6fb/IMG_1938.jpg)
Then the two brackets were cut apart, and trimmed to length. Here they are completed:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/y3uvhdwyv/IMG_1940.jpg)
On the real ones, there would be a small shock mount inside these, to reduce the shock loads when the bucket hits rocks (or wayward cars). For the model, not enough room for that to be practical, so I made them solid.
Last parts for the brackets are the s-shaped bars. I don't have any 1/8x3/16, so started by milling off the side of some 3/16 square bar. They will be heated for bending, then measured for the cross pin holes - the bars are left long for now, dont want to commit to length till after they are bent to shape.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tuq5f8guv/IMG_1941.jpg)
Also, my order of the thin flat bar stock has arrived, so I can start laying out the stock for the dipper booms. I am going to make the booms like the originals, with a white oak core surrounded by steel plates.

EDIT: Oh - and this afternoon is moderately warm outside, so I am going to silver solder up the big bracket.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 24, 2018, 09:11:17 PM
Now that I have the flat stock for the dipper and main booms, it was time to figure out how to hold it for machining. The bars need to be narrowed from 1" to .9375", and trimmed to length. Later on, I'll need to do similar operations on the I-beams for the main frame. All of them are longer than the travel on the mill table (the floor beams will be around 30" long). Time for another fixture plate, something I can register against the edge of the mill table so I dont have to spend hours readjusting it every time it goes on and off.

I started looking at some aluminum bars I have, but none were large enough to handle the length and also the width of the stock (the main boom stock is 2" wide), so I went to my wood shop, and found some 'naturally grown metal' stock, a chunk of Guatambu, also known as Ivorywood, that was left over from a carving years ago. It is very hard and dense, and takes a thread a bit better than aluminum does. One side was recessed down (on the mill) to leave a nice straight lip to hang over the edge of the mill table, then a set of holes for both the t-slot bolts to hold it down and a set of 10-32 tapped holes for the hold-downs were drilled in. With it bolted to the mill table, snug against the lip, a shallow recess about .900" wide was milled into the top to give something for the stock to rest against. Here it is, holding one of the dipper boom side bars:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ya913z52v/IMG_1942.jpg)
Using this setup, I milled each of the four bars down to the finished width. Since the bars are longer than the table travel, I made a pass as far as it would go, rewound the table back, slid the bar to the right, and made a second pass to finish off the cut. For the longer main boom and floor beams, it will take several passes per bar. One thing I found when setting up is that the 1" bar stock actually varies in width along its length, from 1" to 1.015" wide - one side of the stock was a little wavy in places, so I milled that side off, using the straight edge against the stop.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5xdjdiys7/IMG_1943.jpg)
With the bars to width, I went and cut a pair or oak strips for the cores of the dipper handle. The table saw is no where near accurate enough for this, so I left them slightly oversize, then used the fixture to mill them to width and thickness. The cores were taken .025" shorter than the steel bars, to leave room for the end plug to notch into place.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3st6cfpfr/IMG_1944.jpg)
Here are the bars and cores done. One set is clamped together on the upper right, the other set is laying on the table. Note that the top bar is thicker than the bottom one. Not sure why they designed it that way, though it may have to do with the fact that the bottom edge also will get the gear rack bolted to it.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/yzrtgcsrr/IMG_1945.jpg)
And the bar held up to the bucket for a better sense of scale. The bottom bar has a slightly rounded edge, that needs to be filed slightly to let it fit snug into the slots in the fitting.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ddcszc1x3/IMG_1946.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on January 24, 2018, 09:55:45 PM
Top bar is in tension, bottom in compression under a bending load.  Might be a reason foe thicker top.   :thinking:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 24, 2018, 10:05:18 PM
Top bar is in tension, bottom in compression under a bending load.  Might be a reason foe thicker top.   :thinking:
That's a possibility.  The top also has the T shaped gear holder sliding along it, wonder if the made it thicker to allow for wear as well?
Wouldn't it be great to be able to go back and pick these guys brains?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on January 24, 2018, 10:45:42 PM
Just awesome!    :ThumbsUp:

 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 25, 2018, 08:04:48 PM
Top bar is in tension, bottom in compression under a bending load.  Might be a reason foe thicker top.   :thinking:

Took another closeup look at the photos, since this was not making sense to me - why it would be a different thickness top and bottom plates of the dipper boom? Through the grease/dirt on the boom, I could make out that there is a second layer of plate on the bottom to bring it up to the same thickness as the top. The bottom piece only runs about a third of the way back from the bucket, then the gear rack plate runs the rest of the way. Don't know why they made the bottom one in two pieces when the top is one - maybe thats what THEY had on THEIR stock pile!

So, easy enough to cut another length of the thinner stock for the bottom sides and add it to the stack - fortunately I have not started drilling for the bolts/rivets yet.

Since the rivets need to be flush with the surface of the plates, so they don't hit the main boom or gear guide, I'm going to experiment on some scrap with countersinking the hole, so the rivet has room to expand below the surface, then file off the top of the rivet head. Looks like they did something like that.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on January 25, 2018, 09:53:31 PM
Interesting bit of fabrication on those dipper booms. I'm glad you're making good progress as usual because I'm anxious to see how the dipper is located in the main jib so that it can slide and swivel while maintaining good contact between rack and pinion  :thinking:

No rush, because I like to try to imagine how I would do it, then see if I was right  :noidea:

Mike

P.S.  Actually, I think I've worked it out except for some details
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 25, 2018, 10:23:31 PM
Interesting bit of fabrication on those dipper booms. I'm glad you're making good progress as usual because I'm anxious to see how the dipper is located in the main jib so that it can slide and swivel while maintaining good contact between rack and pinion  :thinking:

No rush, because I like to try to imagine how I would do it, then see if I was right  :noidea:

Mike

P.S.  Actually, I think I've worked it out except for some details

This is the key part - it rides between the two sides of the dipper handle, with its top plate on top of the booms and the small gears engaging in the flat gear rack on the bottom of the booms. The axle through the gears extends out and holds the large gears you see on either side of the main boom (which is also made with two narrow side rails). That axle is held to the main booms with a pillow block. So, the dipper can pivot on that axle, and is driven in and out by the gears. The large gear is driven by a small gear on the crowd engine, located just below the large gear on the main boom.

Were you right?

 :cheers:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/micfknrxz/Slider.jpg)
There are two green arrows - the upper one points at the top of the plate in the drawing above, the lower one to the axle on that same fitting.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/a3pnkhsrr/IMG_1176a.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 25, 2018, 10:50:34 PM
Wow, what progress!

It's really interesting to see people develop models straight from the real thing.

At this rate, you'll be starting the Stanley this weekend. Right?  ;D

Enjoying the show!  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on January 26, 2018, 12:14:41 AM
Well, I was close enough to deserve the :DrinkPint: I treated myself to after dinner, but I assumed there would be some sort of roller guides on the top of the boom instead of the sliding plate. I guess the weight of the dipper arm would be almost enough to keep the rack and pinion engaged, so there perhaps wasn't too much pressure on that plate  :shrug:

At first I thought the loading on that axle would be too great for it to be the pivot point, but then I realised most of the heavy lifting is handled by the chain and the main jib.


My late father worked for a year in the Ruston Bucyrus factory as part of his engineering degree course way back before WW2, on dragline excavators I believe. He taught me a fair bit about machinery maintenance at 1:1 scale, although his career was in civil engineering. I have great memories of helping him strip down a couple of tractor engines for a de-coke.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 26, 2018, 01:03:38 AM
Wow, what progress!

It's really interesting to see people develop models straight from the real thing.

At this rate, you'll be starting the Stanley this weekend. Right?  ;D

Enjoying the show!  :popcorn:
Well, I've been looking at the plans for the engine, they are out on the back table. I also have plans from Germany for a model of the car, but cannot figure out some of the views. The engine plans were drawn from a full size engine, would need to scale them down a bit. Still an old favorite!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 26, 2018, 01:07:55 AM
Well, I was close enough to deserve the :DrinkPint: I treated myself to after dinner, but I assumed there would be some sort of roller guides on the top of the boom instead of the sliding plate. I guess the weight of the dipper arm would be almost enough to keep the rack and pinion engaged, so there perhaps wasn't too much pressure on that plate  :shrug:

At first I thought the loading on that axle would be too great for it to be the pivot point, but then I realised most of the heavy lifting is handled by the chain and the main jib.


My late father worked for a year in the Ruston Bucyrus factory as part of his engineering degree course way back before WW2, on dragline excavators I believe. He taught me a fair bit about machinery maintenance at 1:1 scale, although his career was in civil engineering. I have great memories of helping him strip down a couple of tractor engines for a de-coke.

 :cheers:
Seems like there would still be a lot of force on that axle, but as you say the chain on the bucket takes the worst of the load. There were some shovels that used rollers on that top plate, seen it in one of the patents, but Marion didn't put them on this model.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 26, 2018, 03:46:44 PM
Some more done on the dipper boom (depending where you are from, also known as the dipper stick, dipper arm, dip stick, etc - varied by region and country) parts. Laid out and drilled the holes for the bolts at the end which will secure the oak block spacer between the two arms.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/724uaiu5j/IMG_1947.jpg)
Also milled up the oak block and drilled its matching holes, and cut some 5-40 threaded rod for the cross bolts. The lower forward end of the block is angled to match the end fitting. The block still needs to be trimmed back to length.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/te2n3x0zb/IMG_1948.jpg)
I am going to need to go into production mode for both rivets and the threaded rod/nuts for the rest of the boom. The cross bolts/rivets will be installed first, then will drill the holes for the vertical ones that attach the top/bottom rails.
But first, off to the dentist in a little while, had a crown on a back molar decide to attempt an escape, need to go get that glued back in - hope he is not reading this thread and decides to use rivets!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 26, 2018, 09:15:13 PM
The dentist went really quick, just a quick clean up and re-glue of the crown!   :cartwheel:

So, back in the shop, been doing version 87.5 of the flippers for the turtle sub (keep learning new things with the materials and having to change the design of the mechanism, will report on that once it settles down, looking promising this time).

Also, got started drilling the holes for the rivets in the side rails, good chance to test the machinist jacks that followed me home from LMS at the Cabin Fever show (along with some vises, etc).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bpk33rok7/IMG_1950.jpg)
As I mentioned before, the outer ends of the holes will be countersunk slightly to give the rivet heads a place to expand into while keeping the surface flush.

Also, my order from Midway showed up with the bottle of DuraBake Enamel matte black paint. This is a bake-cured paint, thin coating, intended for the gun market so it should be durable. Comes in a couple dozen colors, mainly earthtones and camo colors, couple reds/blues too. It normally needs a 15 minute bake at 350F, but will also work with a 3 hour bake at just 185F, which means that I could redo the bucket paint and not have to worry about the soft solder I used to fillet the inside corners - also, being paint rather than a chemical blackener, it works the same on whatever the metal is.
It is meant to be sprayed or airbrushed on, but I figured I'd give it a tough test and brush on a thin coat and see how it holds up - there are a lot of small parts coming where it would be a pain to have to set up/clean out the airbrush over and over and over, so if it works okay for brushing that will save time in the long run.
Rather than strip the bucket down for the test, I gave the bucket door a light brush-on coating. Seems to cover pretty well, dries to the touch in 10 minutes or so, no nasty smells despite the solvents it uses - typical paint smell, but no where near as bad a lacquers. After a 15 minute dry time, then hung the part in the oven at 350F (preheated), then left it to cool.
Here it is set on top of the bucket shell (which is still the original paint).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6e56j1urr/IMG_1949.jpg)
Seems to be a good hard surface, first test was rubbing hard on the sharp corner of the brass lid with a fingernail, left no marks at all - did the same on the lacquer the shell is painted with, and it scraped off a strip. So, first impression is quite good. As I've noticed with other paints, ones that are supposed to be matte when sprayed come out glossier when brushed on instead, but that is fine. It went on thin enough, and without runs, so the lever mechanism still works, may give that surface a rub with a abrasive pad to get quick motion back, though it may just need a little oil.

I'll give it some more handling time, and if no issues develop I'll strip the other paint off the bucket and coat that as well. Instructions say that if needed additional coats can be applied and the part baked again, that is probably going to happen on some parts. For the shell, I'll try spraying it on. I got it in a 4 ounce bottle, they also have a larger size, plus spray cans - most of the reviews and resellers warn of needing to replace the spray nozzle after a couple of uses though, so I'll stick with the liquid bottles, and make sure I clean the airbrush ASAP after spraying.

So far, looks like a very promising paint for parts being handled a lot.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 26, 2018, 10:37:00 PM
Got the first side beam drilled and countersunk both sides, going to need a lot of rivets!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tai0f2xdz/IMG_1952.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on January 27, 2018, 02:25:37 AM
You don't want it to look too pristine.  A working machine after all.   :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 27, 2018, 03:24:31 AM
You don't want it to look too pristine.  A working machine after all.   :popcorn:
I agree - the brush marks give it some texture, but for large surfaces like the bucket shell the brush tends to leave thin streaks that are hard to fill properly, too much texture. The airbrush should work fine on those areas, hopefully this stuff cleans out well, otherwise its just brush work. It does seem to give a nice tough finish, much better than the normal paints do, seems to stick much better to the bare metal. True test will be all the handling/bumping/scraping it will get in the next weeks when assembling the rest of the dipper boom to it.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 28, 2018, 05:58:11 PM
The first dipper boom side has had its horizontal rivets installed - took a bit of experimenting on the first half dozen to narrow in on exactly how long to cut the rivets so they would come out nearly flush when peaned over into the countersunk holes in the beams. Once that was determined, cut a dozen or so at a time and installed them. Once they were all done, took it down to the carving/sanding booth (bank of muffin fans behind a furnace filter, with some plexi panels out front to help corral the dust) and used a small drum sander on the rotary tool to smooth off the rivets that were still a little high, then finished with a flat file. End result is a smooth set of faces that wont catch the main boom or the slider in the center. Same to do on the other dipper boom, then I can start on the top/bottom rails.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/v7xkmc6c7/IMG_1953.jpg)
It may seem like a lot of work to get a rectangular bar, but I am trying to make as much as possible just like the original, and this way also keeps the bar straight and light. The outlines of the rivets should shadow through the paint, just like they do on the original as well.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 28, 2018, 11:06:34 PM
Second boom now riveted like the first, can now start on the top/bottom panels of the booms.... Running a bit low on that size round bar, had to order some more to be sure I have enough for the main booms, going through a lot of it.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/uf3svwq5z/IMG_1955.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 28, 2018, 11:21:11 PM
Wow.

I'm beginning to understand the power of your cookies. Sugar = energy.
Is one of the ingredients caffeine as well?

What are the rivets made of?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 28, 2018, 11:38:58 PM
Wow.

I'm beginning to understand the power of your cookies. Sugar = energy.
Is one of the ingredients caffeine as well?

What are the rivets made of?

No caffeine, just peppermint! 

The rivets are 303 stainless steel rod - definitely harder to pean over than brass rivets, but working quite well. There is about 1/32" sticking out above the surface either side at the start, and it winds up nearly flush when the tops are exapnded into the shallow countersink at each opening - several hits with the ball end of the hammer to expand them, do that both sides, followed by a few with the flat end of the hammer to draw it all tight.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 29, 2018, 03:17:28 PM
This morning I've started drilling the rails for the top/bottom panels on the dipper boom. First clamped the rails onto the boom, and lined up the holes in the end fitting, used it as a drill guide for the first four holes.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/svq17ppzr/IMG_1956.jpg)
With the end fitting bolted on to keep the rails in position, and some more clamps down the length, began drilling the rivet holes.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/f21oinpon/IMG_1957.jpg)
These holes are taking longer to drill than the horizontal ones since the oak doesn't clear chips well on narrow deep holes, so some pecking is needed to clear the flutes. The holes are spaced to go between the horizontal rivets. They will be countersunk the same way the horizontal ones to make the rivet heads go flush. Some of the ones over the gear rack will be countersunk deeper, so I can bolt the rails through and grind off the bolt heads. I still need to work out the holder for the gear cutter to make the racks, the one I've been using won't have enough reach for the length of the racks.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 29, 2018, 09:28:07 PM
Continuing on with the dipper booms, got the holes drilledin the first boom for the vertical rivets, and then counterdrilled part way through the thicker top plate in several places for the bolts to hold the gear rack in place on the bottom edge.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8ngwauyzr/IMG_1958.jpg)
Then cut and installed the rivets in that boom:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/66553lmt3/IMG_1959.jpg)
Now need to repeat the vertical holes/rivets for the second boom...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 30, 2018, 10:31:35 PM
Well, a whole bunch of rivets later, and the dipper boom parts are test assembled:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/any93vvpj/IMG_1960.jpg)
The assembly is held together by a set of horizontal and vertical bolts at the bucket end, and is attached to the bucket with a pivot pin at the lower front corner.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/sqrbv3juf/IMG_1961.jpg)
Still to do on the booms:
- make up a batch of scale size 5-40 nuts for the bolts, the ones on there now are standard size, way out of scale proportions
- bolt on the fittings at the top and make the straps that go to the top/back corners of the bucket
- make and attach the plugs at the back end of the booms
- make and attach the gear racks on the lower back sides of the booms
- strip the bucket, paint the bucket and booms with the bake on paint like I did for the bucket door. I'll use the longer time/lower temperature option on the paint due to the oak spacers on the booms.

I've been looking ahead at the gear racks, due to their length, I dont think it is practical to cut them with the normal round gear cutters, since they are a smaller diameter than the headstock, so the stock can't go past the headstock during cutting. So, I think I'll make up a single point cutter to be held in the fly-cutter holder and cut the racks that way. I used that sort of single point cutter on the first clock I made, so its a known procedure. I can turn the headstock of the mill 90 degrees, use the z-axis for adjusting depth of cut and the x axis to advance to the next tooth, y axis to make the cut for each tooth. Going to make the small pinion gear first, use that to test the rack tooth spacing on some scrap first.

Once all that is done, only a few thousand more parts to go on the model!   :paranoia:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 30, 2018, 11:52:20 PM
The detail is excellent.

And tell us the story on that anvil.  ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 31, 2018, 02:06:17 AM
The detail is excellent.

And tell us the story on that anvil.  ;D
Um, its about 3 or 4 pounds, bought it years ago, not sure where, probably from Rio Grande jewelry tools. Very handy, heavy enough to rivet heavy steel rivets without bouncing but small enough to fit in a drawer. I was using an offcut of iron bar the other day, remembered I had the anvil, finally found it in a big old tool chest in the wood shop.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 31, 2018, 05:48:39 PM
This morning I started making up a batch of scale nuts for the bolts on the dipper boom. I have a couple boxes of 'small pattern' 5-40 nuts, but they are still a bit out of scale. Rather than make them from scratch from hex or round bar, thought I'd try a shortcut and mill down the ones I have. I drilled/tapped a hole in the end of a bar, ran some of the nuts onto a socket head bolt, jammed them down tight, and ran that tight into the bar held in the hex collet holder on the mill. A few passes later, and some smaller-than-small-patter nuts...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/nze4r5ymv/IMG_1970.jpg)
Here are the milled down nuts, center, with the original on the left. On the right is a real one found smushed into the gravel under the steam shovel, still has the tar and grime on it from the machine. I used that to scale the proportions down to the model nuts. Could be a few thou thicker, but its pretty darn close.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/69cg64dc7/IMG_1966.jpg)
Just need to make up a few more sets, and I can assemble them on the booms.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: tvoght on January 31, 2018, 06:00:22 PM
Nice trick with the nuts Chris. I just had one of those "now why didn't I think of that?" moments. I so often do, when following your builds.


--Tim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: RonGinger on January 31, 2018, 06:43:03 PM
I use standard, but smaller nut and re-drill and tap them. A standard 2-56can be drilled out to 4-40, a 4-40 and be drilled for 5-40, etc

Its pretty easy to clamp one in a vise and drill and tap. Wonder of those combination drill-tap devices would work? i will have to try that.

My current project, the Cornwall Forge engine wants square nuts. I have not found a good way to do that yet.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 31, 2018, 06:43:40 PM
Nice trick with the nuts Chris. I just had one of those "now why didn't I think of that?" moments. I so often do, when following your builds.


--Tim

I tried making more at once than just the 4, but the flex of the bolt when longer made it iffy at best. Also tried it with the bolt held in the collet directly, but being able to tighten it down against the end of the rod worked much better. Only takes about a minute per batch, mainly to load up/remove/repeat the nuts. Also am making two passes down to the finished dimensions to reduce the depth of cut and the forces. Still, its a lot faster than drilling, parting, tapping, filing it all from scratch.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 31, 2018, 06:45:37 PM
I use standard, but smaller nut and re-drill and tap them. A standard 2-56can be drilled out to 4-40, a 4-40 and be drilled for 5-40, etc

Its pretty easy to clamp one in a vise and drill and tap. Wonder of those combination drill-tap devices would work? i will have to try that.

My current project, the Cornwall Forge engine wants square nuts. I have not found a good way to do that yet.
Ah, thats sneaky! I like it.

For square nuts, you could try the way I am making them but with the square collet holder, take a standard width one square, should be enough material if you start with the big hardware store ones.

Oh, and we want a build thread on the Cornwall Forge engine!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on February 01, 2018, 12:00:00 AM
lots more work done there ,I wish i could do more as everything i do seems to take forever !!  Also will you be putting spots of weld on the tines as they used to do to build them up after constant use ?  Just a thought !! :-\ :: :mischief:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 01, 2018, 02:22:54 AM
lots more work done there ,I wish i could do more as everything i do seems to take forever !!  Also will you be putting spots of weld on the tines as they used to do to build them up after constant use ?  Just a thought !! :-\ :: :mischief:
So I can call any dings in the teeth 'damage from that big rock'?!

One thing I need to do when the weather warms up (a long list) is get over there and take tracings of the teeth and of the 'root' of the one missing one, to make up a pattern for a replacement. Not sure if I'll carve out a big chunk or make a wood pattern and get it cast somewhere. The base of the missing one is complete, just the replaceable tooth tip  that is missing.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: bouch on February 01, 2018, 02:51:35 PM
My current project, the Cornwall Forge engine wants square nuts. I have not found a good way to do that yet.

I made about 75 square nuts, threaded 2-56, for my wooden beam engine.  If you find a good way to make them, let me know, as making those square nuts was a royal PITA.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 01, 2018, 06:16:57 PM
My current project, the Cornwall Forge engine wants square nuts. I have not found a good way to do that yet.

I made about 75 square nuts, threaded 2-56, for my wooden beam engine.  If you find a good way to make them, let me know, as making those square nuts was a royal PITA.
Would milling down the standard 2-56 hardware store ones like I did, but to square using a square collet holder, work for them? Or do they need to be even larger across the flats? This method worked nicely for these hex nuts.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dan Rowe on February 01, 2018, 07:19:08 PM
My plan to make square nuts is to use a square collet or my new 4 jaw scroll chuck from Sherline and drill, chamfer and cut off with the lathe. Then use a fixture in the vise with a slot the width of the nuts and a clearance hole for the tap. This method of tapping nuts was shown by Ramon in recent tapping thread.
Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 01, 2018, 07:49:29 PM
Well, now that everyones nuts are squared off....   :o

Next stage on the dipper boom was to bolt on the holders for the top braces (had not put on the newer smaller nuts when this pic was taken).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6rlvykimv/IMG_1971.jpg)
Then milled down some bar stock to size for the angle braces, left long, and heat-bent them to shape. They were held in the vise at the opposite end from the bend, heated red with a torch, and bent over with some pliers. Took a couple of heats to get the bend due to the thickness of the bars and how fast they cooled. With some minor tweaks, got them to be straight into the brackets at the bucket end, and parallel to the boom at the other.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wn5mhrs6f/IMG_1972.jpg)
Then drilled the bucket end for the cross pin and filed the end round. With the bucket set to the proper angle to the boom with a protractor (the bucket is not at 90 degrees, it is tipped forward several degrees to give it better bite into the ground), the other end was marked at the bracket on the boom, and drilled there. With the one side pinned in place, the other side was marked and drilled to match - this is one of those times where marking from the actual parts beats marking from the distance on the plance, with this many parts in between the tolerances can build up too fast (at least for me).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gowwrnddz/IMG_1979.jpg)
As you can see, I've stripped the original paint off the bucket shell - it was not holding up that well to handling, so it will get repainted along with the boom with the new bake-on enamel that I tested on the bottom door, which is holding up great so far.
Here it all is with the bucket pinned in place, door is still off till after painting.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4zsx3oepj/IMG_1978.jpg)
Next up is to make the plugs at the back end of the booms, which slip into the ends of the steel wrapper and against the inner wood core. The back of the plugs are a half-round shape, so am setting up the rotary table again for that.
After that, need to make the lever that the door chain attaches to - that bolts on to the bottom fitting near the bucket, and then I can start on the gear rack.
One item that arrived this week was a print copy of the 1902 Marion steam shovel catalog that I obtained. One tidbit of information in there (among many, they brag about all the design features the way new car brochures do today), was a discussion of why they used the wood cores in the booms. I had seen references before that it helped prevent fracturing the steel, which could happen with an all-steel boom, but in this writeup they also mention that with an all steel boom there was a tendancy for the boom to take a permanent twist if it was flexed to one side, like if it hit a boulder on one side of the bucket during a scoop. With the wood core, they say it resists the twisting better, and rebounds back to shape better than the all steel version, though they say that they would supply an all-steel boom if requested by the buyer. Lots of interesting stuff in those catalogs. They usually have a bunch of photos of shovels in action at customer sites - I've noticed that almost every customer added their own custom features, like permenant enclosures for the coal deck, walkways down the sides (there is very little room to walk past the engines inside), one even had a wood tower on top with a big light, presumably for working at night.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 01, 2018, 08:33:03 PM
Forgot to include this picture:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/jmtvl52zb/IMG_1980.jpg)
Just weighed it - boom, bucket, and door are 4.6 pounds so far.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 01, 2018, 08:40:58 PM
In looking at the bucket photos and in person, it seemed chunky, so I checked the photos of the real one and I realized I missed something on the yoke that spans the bucket - the thickness (front to back) at the bottom is correct, but I forgot to include the taper that it has, at the top where the pulley attaches it should be thinner. So, before painting I need to take the yoke off and do a little milling on it.
 :Doh:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: J.L. on February 01, 2018, 09:57:59 PM
Beyond words Chris.
A master at work.
John
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner_decoy on February 01, 2018, 10:47:52 PM
" With the wood core, they say it resists the twisting better, and rebounds back to shape better than the all steel version"

Interesting reporting from the manufacturer Chris......do they talk about a particular wood specie?..[we have soft woods to iron bark which range dramatically in density and mechanical properties]

We see you have a bolted [one piece] Oak block of wood at the bucket end within the dipper boom boxed structure, will you be replacing this with longitudinal laminated sections which would be as per actual build?...or would a one piece section of wood have been used?

This also brings the direction of the growth lines within the timber to best resist the rotational twisting  :hammerbash: moment imposed on the box section of the dipper boom

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 01, 2018, 11:35:42 PM
Will you please slow down? I, for one, cannot keep up.
Go make some cookies. Do some carving. Swim with your subs. Provide some quality play time with your elves.

Try to reach my level of progress.  :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 01, 2018, 11:42:38 PM
" With the wood core, they say it resists the twisting better, and rebounds back to shape better than the all steel version"

Interesting reporting from the manufacturer Chris......do they talk about a particular wood specie?..[we have soft woods to iron bark which range dramatically in density and mechanical properties]

We see you have a bolted [one piece] Oak block of wood at the bucket end within the dipper boom boxed structure, will you be replacing this with longitudinal laminated sections which would be as per actual build?...or would a one piece section of wood have been used?

This also brings the direction of the growth lines within the timber to best resist the rotational twisting  :hammerbash: moment imposed on the box section of the dipper boom

Derek
Hi Derek,


They say they use white oak for all the wood parts. They used single blocks, not laminations, for the blocks. The main boom is constructed the same way as the dipper, just larger. On the smallest machines, the booms were wood only in some cases, where medium and large ones all had the wrapped wood. On the shovel here, the center spacer block at the base of the main boom has a lot of rot on the top surface, but its still a massive block. The center blocks appear to be solid chunks, this predates glue lam beams. Hard to say which way they oriented the grain inside the booms, if anything specific, since it is wrapped, and I'd get in a lot of trouble if I took it apart!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 01, 2018, 11:50:33 PM
Will you please slow down? I, for one, cannot keep up.
Go make some cookies. Do some carving. Swim with your subs. Provide some quality play time with your elves.

Try to reach my level of progress.  :lolb:
Reminds me of the old joke, I'll type slow since I know you don't read fast!   :ROFL:


And this IS slow progress! I also spend a lot of time on two archery leagues, pistol league, two rifle leagues, am building the turtle sub, watching TV, taking care of my mom, eating cookies, researching Marion shovels, napping, reading, carving, running subs, ... Not my fault that you are still in that silly universe with only 24 hours in a day! Retire already!!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 02, 2018, 12:33:07 AM
Not my fault that you are still in that silly universe with only 24 hours in a day! Retire already!!

Know of a worm hole nearby?

The holes I've tried are filled.  :facepalm2:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 02, 2018, 12:45:14 AM
Not my fault that you are still in that silly universe with only 24 hours in a day! Retire already!!

Know of a worm hole nearby?

The holes I've tried are filled.  :facepalm2:
Only that one Chrichton used on Farscape,leads to a nasty part of the universe...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on February 02, 2018, 09:47:48 AM
They say they use white oak for all the wood parts. They used single blocks, not laminations, for the blocks. The main boom is constructed the same way as the dipper, just larger. On the smallest machines, the booms were wood only in some cases, where medium and large ones all had the wrapped wood. On the shovel here, the center spacer block at the base of the main boom has a lot of rot on the top surface, but its still a massive block. The center blocks appear to be solid chunks, this predates glue lam beams. Hard to say which way they oriented the grain inside the booms, if anything specific, since it is wrapped, and I'd get in a lot of trouble if I took it apart!!

I can see the logic in using the timber core for its resilience, and anyone who has come across old oak beams will know how tough it is. I guess they would have used straight-grained, well-seasoned wood to avoid any tendency for warping or twisting as it aged.  There would seem to be ideal conditions for moisture to be trapped within the booms, resulting in corrosion of the metal in such close contact. But it obviously couldn't have been a major problem if they used it routinely - maybe there would not be enough oxygen in there for serious rusting to occur  :thinking:

Like everybody here I am still following along with a mixture of envy, respect and wonder  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on February 02, 2018, 01:00:48 PM
With that handle scooping M&Ms will be easier.   :)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 02, 2018, 01:24:31 PM
With that handle scooping M&Ms will be easier.   :)
It'll grab quite a mouthful!  Gotta lay in a supply for testing... Need to test it out on plain, peanut, dark, mint...!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on February 02, 2018, 02:02:04 PM
Looking great Chris!

Better hunt out some giant M&M's, just for trail purpose's, so you can check out different "bolder" sizes    :lolb:  :popcorn: would be no challenge!

Can you fit a cookie or two in the bucket......sure the elves will find out!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 02, 2018, 03:09:24 PM
Looking great Chris!

Better hunt out some giant M&M's, just for trail purpose's, so you can check out different "bolder" sizes    :lolb: :popcorn: would be no challenge!

Can you fit a cookie or two in the bucket......sure the elves will find out!

Cheers Kerrin
Great idea on the giant m&m boulders!


As for cookies, check back to post nbr 332, Christmas cookies fit!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Mcgyver on February 02, 2018, 03:15:42 PM
yes, it is looking great - beautiful workmanship!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 02, 2018, 06:29:08 PM
Thanks guys!

More parts on the dipper handle booms - the back end plugs. These are half-round pieces that fit into the ends, sealing up the core and most likely is rounded to make it easier to fit the dipper through the center gap in the main boom when setting up at a new site (they would remove the main and dipper booms and transport them on a separate flatcar when moving to a new site by rail). Since there would be nothing to hold onto if I cut the parts to length first, I rounded the ends on the rotary table with the whole bar intact - did one at each end of the bar.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/coh170mfr/IMG_1982.jpg)
The end mill would not reach all the way down in one cut, so it was done in two sets of passes. On the second pass, I stopped just short of the table and left a thin sliver that I filed off later.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wvugzcmhz/IMG_1986.jpg)
Then, switched out the rotab for the vise, and started cutting the tenon that will slip into the end of the boom. First cut the top, then the sides, lining up the sides to meet the edge of the top cut.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/58hrl86g7/IMG_1988.jpg)
And finished with the bottom cut, meeting up with the sides.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/f5ssealrr/IMG_1990.jpg)
The parts were cut off the bar, and test fit:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/hzvxrqvnr/IMG_1991.jpg)
The overhang at the bottom will overlap the end of the gear rack. Test fit was good, so drilled, riveted, and sanded the rivets off flush just like before.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xld9bpfbr/IMG_1995.jpg)
Also, as I mentioned the other day, I tapered the top of the yoke on the bucket, which I had forgotten to do when I made the yoke. Set it up in the vise on the tilt table, and took a few cuts with it tilted a couple of degrees, then sanded the corners to ease the edges. Looks much better, was too chunky before, did not match the original shape.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bm6uoidx3/IMG_1996.jpg)
So, next is to make the small lever that the door release chain attaches to, then on to a fun part, making the pinion gears and the gear racks for the bottom of the dipper booms!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 02, 2018, 06:47:53 PM
Update on the discussion about the wood core in the booms: I found this picture in their catalog nbr 50, showing that the oak is in three pieces stacked up for the inside of the boom. It does not say which model shovel this was for, or whether this was the main or dipper boom.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4k8x24n47/Boom_Cross_Section.jpg)
You can see that the grain is mostly on edge, not flat, though the top piece is at a 45 degree angle - they are not taking the same care that needs to be done for selecting pieces for bending and laminating for fine furniture, obviously, but it is plenty sturdy.
I looked back through my photos of the booms on the shovel here, and can see some evidence in the grain that they did stack very thick boards for the large deadwood spacers between the main booms as well, with the seams also running horizontally and bolts through vertically. The end spacer piece on the dipper appears to be one slab, probably since that one is much narrower overall - the spacers on the main boom are huge, and would have included heartwood if cut from one piece.
Details inside details!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 02, 2018, 10:36:19 PM
Well, that was an interesting trip through the gear design/cutting books (Ivan Law and Jones/Ryffel books) to learn how to design a gear rack to fit an involute gear. Definitely going to need some chocolate chip therapy to get the brain to cool down!

Neither book gives a complete diagram and set of formulas for laying out the gear rack, but between the two its all there. Here is what I wound up with, assuming the module 0.6 gear driving the rack, drawn up in Fusion360 and dimensioned out as a 2D drawing:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/zdatk7qlj/Gear_Rack_Drawing_v1.jpg)
It looks correct to me, at least at the moment. Hopefully its right, will look again later with fresh eyes and see if I spot any glaring brain-farts. If any of you spot anything, please let me know!
Assuming this looks plausible, I am going to start by cutting the gear, do some more spot checks on that, then grind up a single-point fly cutter to cut the rack with. If it was a lot larger I would be able to make it with a slitting saw and appropriate setups on the mill, but its pretty small spacing - the gear is only a little over 7" in diameter on the real thing, and this is 1/16th that size, so the tooth size gets pretty small. Hopefully it works out big enough to be functional.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 02, 2018, 11:39:40 PM
Nice pictures. The bucket is awesome!

P.S. Farscape was a great show.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on February 03, 2018, 02:38:41 AM
Hi Chris,...found some pictures on graces guide.....enjoy......
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 03, 2018, 02:56:30 AM
Willy, those are great! I love the "attachment" for the traction engine, very clever. The revolving one would be a fun one too, notice that it has dual gauge railroad wheels too. Nice!!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steam Haulage on February 03, 2018, 09:56:50 AM
Chris,

If you have never seen it 'The Engineer' is still going, it's full of useful information and many what would now be called 'newsbytes' Founded in 1856, see Wikipedia. Published in the UK but covers the whole World, sometimes you might not think anything interesting occurs in the UK anymore such is the worldwide coverage. Graces guide has links for mags up to about 1960.
It's never been chea\p to subscribe to but is chases the development of all sorts of machines from the initial conception right through to implemtation.

On Graces Guide there are links by company - all the shovel manufacturers we know of have mentions. Marion, Bucyrus and Rustons all feature, sometimes with picures of the intenals of their workshops.

Today it is essential reading if you are building jet engines, nuclear power plant and anything approaching the cutting edge.

Jerry :old:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 03, 2018, 09:15:30 PM
Nice pictures. The bucket is awesome!

P.S. Farscape was a great show.
That show is one of my favorites, was bummed when they cancelled it a season early.   :cussing:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 03, 2018, 09:17:06 PM
Chris,

If you have never seen it 'The Engineer' is still going, it's full of useful information and many what would now be called 'newsbytes' Founded in 1856, see Wikipedia. Published in the UK but covers the whole World, sometimes you might not think anything interesting occurs in the UK anymore such is the worldwide coverage. Graces guide has links for mags up to about 1960.
It's never been chea\p to subscribe to but is chases the development of all sorts of machines from the initial conception right through to implemtation.

On Graces Guide there are links by company - all the shovel manufacturers we know of have mentions. Marion, Bucyrus and Rustons all feature, sometimes with picures of the intenals of their workshops.

Today it is essential reading if you are building jet engines, nuclear power plant and anything approaching the cutting edge.

Jerry :old:
Hi Jerry,

I've browsed it a couple of times, an amazing amount of info there, some companies/engines more than others, but well worth the look.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 03, 2018, 09:25:59 PM
A few more parts today. Started out by making up the little lever that the release chain that the bucket door latch goes to, then a rope from there leads back to the secondary operator on the turntable. From the old photos I've seen, the rope section actually has 4 or 5 feet of chain at the lever end, probably keeps it from blowing around the lever on windy days.
Also, got the two small gears made that will engage the rack on the bottom of the dipper boom. They are 17 tooth, and the closest standard size to the real one after scaling down is a Module-0.6 cutter. Fortunately, that cutter set was one of the things on my Christmas list, so it has just gotten its first run in the machine.   :)
With a length of bronze bar held in the 4-jaw (trust it not to slip more than the 3-jaw when cutting gears), and the end turned down to size and drilled/reamed for the .125" shaft it will get, I transferred the chuck over to the rotary table (set vertically) on the mill, centered the cutter, moved it in for the cut, and started the passes for each tooth. Here it is partway around:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ypyl8sw7b/IMG_2000.jpg)
and all done:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/u42h0gidz/IMG_2001.jpg)
Then, moved the chuck back to the lathe, and parted off the two gears. Here they are along with the lever:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mo37eo2ef/IMG_2002.jpg)
A few measurements on the gears verify the diagram I made of the rack, so next I'll take a 1/4" lathe tool blank and see if I can grind the tip for the teeth on the rack...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Bluechip on February 03, 2018, 09:50:33 PM
Chris

I would be interested to know how you centred the cutter.

I've only had a couple of goes at gear chopping but if you use the 'trapped feeler gauge' method I could move the cutter up & down by a fair bit and still the blade was vertical. A gear cutter edge being a fairly large radius the procedure does not work as it does 'between centres' ?

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 03, 2018, 10:19:01 PM
Chris

I would be interested to know how you centred the cutter.

I've only had a couple of goes at gear chopping but if you use the 'trapped feeler gauge' method I could move the cutter up & down by a fair bit and still the blade was vertical. A gear cutter edge being a fairly large radius the procedure does not work as it does 'between centres' ?

Dave
Hi Dave,


Centering it by looking at the outer edge is tough since its such a shallow curve, so in this case I cranked the table over so the tip of the cutter was at the shaft hole on the end, and centered the height by eye - handy that I am quite nearsighted, so if I take off my glasses and moving in close its like using a magnifier. For the normal and farsighted a magnifying glass would work. I got it within a thou or three, which is plenty close enough. On large gears with large bores, I like to chuck up a rod turned to a point before chucking up the real part, gives a easy to see reference.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 03, 2018, 10:20:15 PM
Hold something with a sharp point on it in the chuck. Line the gear cutter up with that to center it. That's what I do.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 03, 2018, 10:21:41 PM
Hold something with a sharp point on it in the chuck. Line the gear cutter up with that to center it. That's what I do.
Agreed, that's what I do for larger gears.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on February 03, 2018, 11:52:11 PM
Damn fine work is all I can say Dog. Keep it up and the photos coming I do enjoy this.


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Bluechip on February 04, 2018, 10:53:31 AM
Hold something with a sharp point on it in the chuck. Line the gear cutter up with that to center it. That's what I do.
Agreed, that's what I do for larger gears.

Ah!   Thank-you Gents ...
I was faffing about trapping the gauge between the blank and cutter.   :headscratch:
Didn't think about making one of them a point.
No excuse, the BS0 head is socketed 2MT, I can use a centre.
But then I can never see the  obvious.    :embarassed:

Very impressive build, Chris     :praise2:   Don't know how you persevere.   

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jo on February 04, 2018, 12:24:57 PM
I measure the width of the cutter and half it = A. I measure the diameter of the gear blank and I half it = B. I then get a height gauge and measure the top of the work = C.

I now subtract B from C and add A = the required height to the top of the gear cutter. Using the height gauge I set the top of the gear cutter using the knee of the mill  ;)

Jo

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Bluechip on February 04, 2018, 01:11:15 PM
Hi Jo

That sounds good ...  :ThumbsUp:

What I did, amongst other things, was to establish the centre height of the BS0 which is 3.992". ( Claimed as 4"  :headscratch:  but I'll let them have that ).

Then did a similar process to you except .....  fly in ointment ....  my set of 0.75 Mod cutters vary in thickness. ( ex-RDG )  ( 5.60mm to 5.22mm, higher cutter #s. being thinner ).
So  if I were to make gears using different number cutters I would have to reset the Z axis.  But in retrospect, no big problem.  :ThumbsUp:
I had read of the 'calibrated eyeball / feeler gauge' method and wondered if it was as effective but quicker.
Will have to have another go sometime, back to de-coking greenhouse. Now mercifully almost clear of brown stuff.   :whoohoo:

PS I did produce a pair of 32T 0.75 Mod gears in 12mm PVC which seemed to mesh rather nicely much to my surprise.  :)

Dave




Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 04, 2018, 03:42:02 PM
Hi Jo,


The only problem I have with that method is some of my cutters don't appear to have the cutter tip centered in the disc. The profile of the cutting portion is symmetric, but the center disc is a little thicker on one side. Thats why I like to center on the tip instead.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 04, 2018, 08:07:05 PM
This morning I ground the cutter for the gear rack - drew some 20 degree lines on the tool rest on the slow speed grinder with a fine wheel, and took down a 1/4" HSS tool blank to shape. Here is what it looks like:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/o45zp1uqf/IMG_2006.jpg)
And the setup on the mill, with the head turned sideways. I had to remove the riser block under the column, and am using the vise since the bit won't reach the longer notched table I made for the booms. So, I'll use the vise, and step it over every couple of inches.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xopmbxrs7/IMG_2007.jpg)
I pre-calculated out and made a list of the handwheel positions from the diagram, so that I could just concentrate on the positions rather than having to do the math in my head for a 0.07421 move every time. Here is the start of a test piece, seemed to go well:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/crte79ebr/IMG_2005.jpg)
and the rest of the test piece:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/987ghgyrb/IMG_2009.jpg)
The gear moves smoothly over the rack, so the calculations must have been correct.   :cartwheel:

Next up, make the longer bars....

Just thinking, with the rack blanks bolted to the booms, I can make the full length set of cuts, since the booms will support the bar. That will save having to line up the last slot when moving the bar in the vise..... Should work, will find out!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on February 05, 2018, 01:49:31 AM
Chris that is awesome dog I .........like.........  :Love:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 05, 2018, 01:56:16 AM
Chris that is awesome dog I .........like.........  :Love:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Thanks Don, Glad to see you along for the ride!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on February 05, 2018, 06:10:29 AM
Interesting way to do the rack.  So you didn't make infinitely large buttons to shape your tooth profile?  You just ground it free hand?
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 05, 2018, 02:02:13 PM
Interesting way to do the rack.  So you didn't make infinitely large buttons to shape your tooth profile?  You just ground it free hand?
Kim
Thats right, when I looked up the formulas for rack teeth, found out that for involute gears, the form of the rack teeth is a simple straight sided tooth, so all I needed was to grind a flat 20 degrees off center on each side, then a touch to flatten the tip, checked the width of that with a dial caliper. A lot simpler shape than I had expected.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 05, 2018, 07:46:23 PM
Today I got a start on cutting the actual gear racks. First one was drilled/threaded/bolted on with some threaded rod and nuts, rod going halfway through the rack blank so as not to interfere with the gear teeth. Set it up in the mill, holding up the far end on a machinist jack to make sure the weight of it did not make it slip down, and started cutting teeth. In this shot you can see why I needed the longer fly cutter, to clear the headstock and motor pulley as the rack was moved along:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/swg9jg67r/IMG_2011.jpg)
Here it is with all the teeth cut. The last section will get a thicker piece on it, to form a stop for the gear so that the boom cannot come all the way out of the small gear and traveller.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wg2799gnb/IMG_2012.jpg)
So, one rack down, one to go, then get the end stops formed. I also need to make some stepped nuts, so that I can bolt in the racks from the other sides and then mill off the top of the nuts.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 05, 2018, 11:44:27 PM
Got the other gear rack cut this afternoon (looks just like first one, so no extra picture), ready to start on the nuts for attaching them to the booms. Looks like a very cold/snowy week coming up, so good time to stay indoors and play in the shops!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: jschoenly on February 06, 2018, 01:52:46 PM
My current project, the Cornwall Forge engine wants square nuts. I have not found a good way to do that yet.

Ron - Gang tool plate and mach4 mini lathe rigid tapping?  ;)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on February 06, 2018, 03:13:45 PM
If I needed to make a quantity of square nuts, I'd try to do it on the lathe with square stock in a 5C collet.  Drill and tap, then part off each one.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: wagnmkr on February 06, 2018, 10:59:53 PM
Same as Kvom ... square stock in a 4 jaw ... drill about 1 1/2 to 2 inches ... tap and part off and repeat. Done it many times and yes, it is mind numbing after a bit, but three or four sets a day can make quite a pile of square nuts.

Tom
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 06, 2018, 11:34:30 PM
I'll ask one more time, why not try it the way I made the hex nuts smaller, with a set of normal hex nuts held on a bolt in the square collet block, and mill the sides down to square. Worked great and fast for making small hex ones, no drilling or tapping time needed at all. Seems like it would work for the square nuts just as easy as the hex ones I did.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on February 06, 2018, 11:54:43 PM
Chris, I don't think shape even matters. If it can be grabbed.... grab it!! Sure, the fellows lucky enough to have shape collets it makes sense for them. But with the Sherline I think I would do what you did..did.

 :cheers:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 07, 2018, 02:12:55 AM
Chris, I don't think shape even matters. If it can be grabbed.... grab it!! Sure, the fellows lucky enough to have shape collets it makes sense for them. But with the Sherline I think I would do what you did..did.

 :cheers:

Pete
I only have the round collets - its the holder that is hex or square. Taking a couple passes with an  end mill on off-the-shelf nuts is a whole lot faster than spotting, drilling, tapping, parting from square stock.

Anyway, back to the Marion!

Today was spent on the computer, designing up the model version of the slew/crowd/steering engine internals. As you may recall, those engines use a very complex set of passages and valves to combine the throttle and fwd/reverse into one central valve inside the engine, with no Stephenson links at all, just a single eccentric per cylinder. It makes use of a lot of extra passages in the block, and a double-level D-valve slider on each cylinder. I had designed up a simplified version that I figured would work for the model, and today I finally started merging that design into the 3D model of the real one.

All went well, till it worked out that the central valve would have been too large to fit the casing at this scale - the o-rings it needed took up too much length. So, a small redesign using a second d-valve, and it looks like it will fit. I have the 2D sketch done up in Fusion for the central valve and the cylinder valves, ready to start extruding out to 3D. It turned out (not surprisingly) to need a different throw on the main eccentrics than the original, so I took a side trip to remake the eccentrics and straps in the 3D model also.

Should be able to finish up the 3D model work tomorrow, and get back into the shop on Thursday.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: RonGinger on February 07, 2018, 02:17:47 PM
The square nuts I need are 3-48. That is .156 across the flats. I dont have a square collet that small.  The across points is .220, so I could use a 1/4" collet on round stock, then put that in a square collet block and mill the 4 sides. My smallest parting tool will waste 1 nut for everyone I get.

Its going to be slow, but I only need 12 of them, and we are forecast for a big snow today, so I guess I will just hunker down and make them.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 07, 2018, 09:23:03 PM
This morning I finished up the 3D cad work for the slew/crowd engines, I think. Still need to make up the 2D drawings for them, but that can be done piecemeal as I work on the booms, going to be a while before I get to the actual engines though I wanted to make sure they would work out.

Back in the shop this afternoon, finishing up the dipper booms. I made up 8 stepped nuts, with the round portion turned to fit in the countersunk holes around the threaded rod holding the gear racks in place.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/r8qrg7tcn/IMG_2013.jpg)
Then loctited and tightened up those in the holes, cut them off and ground them flush with the tops of the booms, so they look like the rivets around them. On the real thing, they were riveted in place, but I did not want to risk the damage to the gear teeth.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4k1kgnjon/IMG_2015.jpg)
As you can see, I also installed another layer of brass at the back end of the rack, held on with loctite and the rearmost bolt, and tapered them off on the belt sander.
I think this completes all the fab work on the dipper booms, and tomorrow I can get them re-assembled and painted (want to let the loctite cure up solid overnight first). The bucket shell will be painted at the same time, using the bake-on enamel I used on the bucket door.
Next parts will be the chain pulley that attaches to the middle of the bucket yoke. I found some steel chain that is pretty close to the accurate scale size, and will be using that for the main hoist and slew chains. Here is what the pulley looks like:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wlfltvz47/DSC_6171.jpg)
It has the pulley sheave enclosed in a sheet metal wrapper, with heavy straps down the sides. I'll be putting in the missing rivets and spacer sheet on the left edge, though!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on February 07, 2018, 09:44:52 PM
Looking good Chris!

Ron,
 For a skinny parting off blade use a piece of hacksaw blade, they work great, just gotta take your time on steel etc.
 I had a whole lot of “ special cups” to make from nylon for my ride trolleys I cunning used 3 blades side by side, 2 cut the spigot, with the added bonus ( very cleaverly designed......NOT! ) so that the 2 blades had a slight gap which gave a ring around the spigot to help hold the cup in & the 3rd cut it to lengthworked a treat! Had 90 odd to make so had to come up with something to make it easy!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on February 07, 2018, 11:22:21 PM
Always a pleasure to see more progress and setups Dog....... :cheers:


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on February 09, 2018, 12:28:17 AM
Hi Zee,
 MAYBE this will get Chris de-railed! IF he watches it right thru & looks in the background there’s something there that just might interest him any way!

oB9wjUlcFBk

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 09, 2018, 01:01:58 AM
Hi Zee,
 MAYBE this will get Chris de-railed! IF he watches it right thru & looks in the background there’s something there that just might interest him any way!

oB9wjUlcFBk

Cheers Kerrin
Great tutorial on the Stanley's, very interesting!


I take it you mean the nice old Ruston shovel off to the left? I wanted him to go circle back on that!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 09, 2018, 01:53:33 AM
Loved that video Kerrin! That was excellent! Thank you.

I did not notice anything in the background. How could I? This was all about the Stanley.

That was right good.

Chris...get your head out of the bucket. Stanley next!  :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 09, 2018, 01:56:51 AM
This afternoon I got the dipper parts painted and baked, after cooling down i found some thin spots, so will give it another touch-up coat tomorrow. While it was baking, went through the plans looking at the chain sheaves, think I'll make them all up at once while making the yoke pulley.


Assuming I don't get derailed and build a Stanley!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 09, 2018, 02:01:52 AM
Loved that video Kerrin! That was excellent! Thank you.

I did not notice anything in the background. How could I? This was all about the Stanley.

That was right good.

Chris...get your head out of the bucket. Stanley next!  :lolb:
We agree then, Stanley NEXT! After the Marion, that is!   :stickpoke:


Actually, after the Marion, need to decide if I build a large scale Stanley engine from the plans I have, or a small engine as part of a working car? Or both? Need to investigate the boiler for it, the German car plans are pretty complex.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on February 09, 2018, 05:55:23 AM
Hi Chris,
 You got it! Somebody from the UK can probably tell us we’re it is, looks to be a historic town / Museum, & then find some more info on the shovel.
 On theboiler front, why not just buy one! There is a company , or at least there was, that made the boilers, pretty sure I saw that on the UK Steam car web site.

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steam Haulage on February 09, 2018, 11:02:24 AM
It's at the Beamish Museum in the North of England http://www.beamish.org.uk/ (http://www.beamish.org.uk/)

Riding Shotgun is DoubleBoost John who has run a workshop and engineering interest channel for some years showing his activities and interests Just search YouTube for DoubleBoost.

Jerry
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on February 09, 2018, 01:32:46 PM
HI Chaps here is me pretending to be a proud owner of several steam cars !! I did travel shotgun in one and the acceleration was amazing...!!! also a pic of a steam engine conversion for a Morris Minor.  All in Norwich blighty !! I lost count of the number of taps cocks and valves !!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 09, 2018, 02:25:31 PM
Hi Chris,
 You got it! Somebody from the UK can probably tell us we’re it is, looks to be a historic town / Museum, & then find some more info on the shovel.
 On theboiler front, why not just buy one! There is a company , or at least there was, that made the boilers, pretty sure I saw that on the UK Steam car web site.

Cheers Kerrin
Buy the boiler? They make them at scale model size? I am not building a full size car!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 09, 2018, 02:27:18 PM
HI Chaps here is me pretending to be a proud owner of several steam cars !! I did travel shotgun in one and the acceleration was amazing...!!! also a pic of a steam engine conversion for a Morris Minor.  All in Norwich blighty !! I lost count of the number of taps cocks and valves !!
Beautiful pictures! (Of the cars that is!   :Lol:  )
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 09, 2018, 09:08:06 PM
This morning got started on the sheave for the chain pulley on the bucket yoke (hmmm, that looks like one of those phrase-names that come out as one long neat word in German). Started with a chunk of 1.25" steel bar centered up in the 4-jaw, used a parting tool to make the groove in the center that every other link sets into, then took one side down to shape, leaving the hub for the axle. Went back and forth with the turning bit and the boring bit to get the recess in the side shaped in.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bse485rkn/IMG_2016.jpg)
Then turned the part around, and did the same to the other side, taking it to final thickness too.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/pm2gx6x0n/IMG_2017.jpg)
And finished off by drilling/reaming the axle hole...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4ceumcw5j/IMG_2018.jpg)
By then, the second coat of paint had been baked on to the bucket and dipper handle, so I got everything reassembled again. Took a few turns of a reamer on some of the holes that had gotten paint in them, and a few scrapes on the latch bar, but it is back working like it did before the paint. Here are a few pictures of everything:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rdvfs4b8n/IMG_2019.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/4p68sk1kn/IMG_2020.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/51xmypozb/IMG_2021.jpg)
So far so good!

Next will continue on with the chain pulley frame.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: tvoght on February 09, 2018, 09:13:51 PM
Gosh, it looks spectacular.


--Tim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 09, 2018, 09:17:20 PM
Gosh, it looks spectacular.


--Tim
Thanks Tim! 

Every new part makes me realize how big a model this is going to be! Probably will travel in two cases to keep it manageable. The recent work on the crowd engine design proves it was a good decision to go this large though, the crowd and slew engines will be fairly small, and the steering engine is 30% smaller than that. Fortunately the hoist engine is a biggie (at least by comparison).
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on February 10, 2018, 01:29:45 AM
Hi Chris,
 Just figured that as each of the models you've built, Shay Lombard & Marion, have got progressively bigger ........Now you are telling us the Marion is going to be BIG & you will need to brake it down to take it places it just  shows that a full size Stanley with TRAILER for the Marion is the way to go!  :lolb: Zee will be with me on this!  :ROFL: :ROFL: :lolb:

Jerry thanks for the link.....off to check it out!!

Steam Guy,
 You big show off!!! Hope you didn't dribble TOO much on them! Would love to be able to check them out! Have friend who has a White steam car, Dad & I are helpful engineers on it & get to go for a ride. I posted a picture of the spare engine under re-build here a while back.

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 10, 2018, 03:40:22 AM
Hi Chris,
 Just figured that as each of the models you've built, Shay Lombard & Marion, have got progressively bigger ........Now you are telling us the Marion is going to be BIG & you will need to brake it down to take it places it just  shows that a full size Stanley with TRAILER for the Marion is the way to go!  :lolb: Zee will be with me on this!  :ROFL: :ROFL: :lolb:

Jerry thanks for the link.....off to check it out!!

Steam Guy,
 You big show off!!! Hope you didn't dribble TOO much on them! Would love to be able to check them out! Have friend who has a White steam car, Dad & I are helpful engineers on it & get to go for a ride. I posted a picture of the spare engine under re-build here a while back.

Cheers Kerrin
Kerrin, You have a very good point!


I know how to resolve this. Zee, put your new shop and all the machines on that trailer, bring it up here, and we can connect it to the back of my house. Then, illI start building full size Stanley Steamers!!   :Lol:


Seems perfectly logical to me!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on February 10, 2018, 03:42:56 AM
Chris,
 Sounds like a cunning plan to me!! Zee you on board with this??? Go on you know you want to!! :ThumbsUp:

Right back to your normal channel........ :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 10, 2018, 02:37:51 PM
Seems perfectly logical to me!

Therein lies the problem.  :)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 10, 2018, 06:28:36 PM
Seems perfectly logical to me!

Therein lies the problem.  :)


"Logic is a pretty flower that smells baad!"


 :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 10, 2018, 10:33:33 PM
After some playing with the chains i have, with the first sheave, not really happy with it. The real chain proportion is close enough for the length and width of the links, but the wire is just too thin for the right look.


So, spent some time with Fusion, and drew up a fixture to bend thicker rod into links, going to see what making my own is like. After the 4 and 6 piece links on the Lombard, how bad can one piece links be?   What? That bad? Oh, well!   :Lol:


I have enough 3/32 rod to test with, if it works out I will have to order another bundle of it, to make several feet of it. The links are open ovals, about 4 to the inch. This rod is tough enough that it won't need soldering, at least.


Have to see what bribes the shop elves want per foot of chain...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dan Rowe on February 11, 2018, 01:07:03 AM
Chris here is some chain that might be big enough for the job.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Strong-Heavy-11-13-15mm-Mens-Stainless-Steel-Silver-O-Link-Chain-Necklace-7-40/352272588412?var=621680080360&hash=item5205151e7c:m:m0jxj2btvNdRCVaehp6eJ1w

Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on February 11, 2018, 01:48:08 AM
That chain Dan found looks right. The links are just oval, not elongated like the one you have. Might be too big though...

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 11, 2018, 01:52:31 AM
Chris here is some chain that might be big enough for the job.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Strong-Heavy-11-13-15mm-Mens-Stainless-Steel-Silver-O-Link-Chain-Necklace-7-40/352272588412?var=621680080360&hash=item5205151e7c:m:m0jxj2btvNdRCVaehp6eJ1w (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Strong-Heavy-11-13-15mm-Mens-Stainless-Steel-Silver-O-Link-Chain-Necklace-7-40/352272588412?var=621680080360&hash=item5205151e7c:m:m0jxj2btvNdRCVaehp6eJ1w)

Dan
Hi Dan,


Thats definitely a good proportion, but those are too large, also with jewelry chain its usually too shiny. The chain I need would be 3/32 thick bar, 5/16 wide overall by 7/16 long overall links, not an easy combination to find. Probably out there somewhere, there are just SO many listings!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dan Rowe on February 11, 2018, 02:07:49 AM
Okey here is some 8mm wide. A torch will fix shiny.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/wholesale-5pcs-Lot-Stainless-steel-silver-Oval-Rolo-Link-Chain-necklace-8mm-24/142617064001?hash=item2134a3b241:g:7VsAAOSwH2VaKMK4

Dan

edit: search "8mm steel chain oval link" 
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 11, 2018, 03:38:26 AM
Dan - wow, that looks quite good, and would save a swarf-ton of work. For those prices, worth ordering some, will take a while to get here but no time is lost since there is LOTS of other work to do on the booms. Thanks much for checking those out for me, I was using different terms and not finding those heavy ones.

Take a bag of cookies out of petty cash!!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on February 11, 2018, 06:42:33 AM
Yep, that chain is just right! I just couldn't make sense of you making that little chain, Chris. Much better to do the other parts...

It's amazing that when I have trouble finding something I just ask here. Almost always, someone knows!

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on February 11, 2018, 01:37:06 PM
Re Stanley Steamer boilers....They have 3 layers of high tensile steel piano wire wrapped around the boiler to prevent explosions doing its worst !!!  As was explained to me by the chap in Norwich restoring them ...Also the chassis is in fact two long lengths of wood !!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 11, 2018, 02:33:40 PM
Re Stanley Steamer boilers....They have 3 layers of high tensile steel piano wire wrapped around the boiler to prevent explosions doing its worst !!!  As was explained to me by the chap in Norwich restoring them ...Also the chassis is in fact two long lengths of wood !!!
Clever, never knew that about the boiler on the Stanley's. Hope the piano wire was in tune if it exploded, to give a good note!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Admiral_dk on February 11, 2018, 08:22:27 PM
Shouldn't it be "ended on a good note"  :Jester:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 12, 2018, 05:51:20 PM
Not much to show for the last few days, I have diverted over to getting the Sea Turtle submarine project finished up before the next pool run in a couple of weeks. Should be back on the Marion soon - I did get the stock roughed out for the chain pulley side plates, but thats all.

On a side note, Live Steam has put up the cover for the next issue on their website, should look familiar to those who followed my last build!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6nw7cdvsn/Magazine_Cover.jpg)
I should be getting my copies soon, so back to staring at the mailbox between making submarine parts...

Back soon!

EDIT: short wait - the magazine copies arrived today, oboyoboyoboy....! 
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on February 12, 2018, 08:11:45 PM
Well done Chris!

Baby Lombards should soon start popping up all over the place!
Just had a thought......does that mean other non shop elves may get infected with the workshop virus? :facepalm:

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 12, 2018, 08:20:58 PM
Well done Chris!

Baby Lombards should soon start popping up all over the place!
Just had a thought......does that mean other non shop elves may get infected with the workshop virus? :facepalm:

Cheers Kerrin
You say that like its a bad thing!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Mikem on February 12, 2018, 10:18:07 PM
I better subscribe now !
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 12, 2018, 11:51:49 PM
I better subscribe now !
And stock up on bar stock!


 :ROFL:

For running on the dirt pile with your excavators, you could build it with a dummy boiler to hold the batteries, put an electric motor in the firebox, and power it that way.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 13, 2018, 12:06:28 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: Nice Chris!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on February 14, 2018, 06:28:24 PM
Hi Chris, It's not a Marion steam shovel, but I found this one interesting.
Ug6hmnUvTpsThere is quite the heated argument in the comments about welding cast iron.
This next one shows the previous one working again.
paFaA2WKCGY65279;
here is the Threlkeld Quarry and Mining Museum
https://www.facebook.com/Threlkeld-Quarry-and-Mining-Museum-1492689190977462/
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 14, 2018, 08:08:20 PM
Hi Gerald - great videos!

That second one is unusual, wonder why they made it with the cab so high above the floor, with the big
gap? Also, the guy who went down and cleared the bucket halfway through really had to trust the guys back in the cab not to throw a lever!

Thanks!
Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 14, 2018, 10:20:54 PM
Well, I got requests for something to keep this thread going while I am diverted onto the Sea Turtle RC submarine build, so here goes - progress on the turtle!

Here is the gimbal mount for the propellors (this is twin-screw drive), that allows the props and the kort nozzle tubes they are in to both pivot together for steering plus diving/surfacing control.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/e9ikgxunr/IMG_2024.jpg)
There will be a u-joint on the inside of each tube, with its pivot point centered on the pivots of the gimbal, so that the length of the drive shaft will stay constant. One of the u-joints is in the foreground, next to one of the props. The props will be trimmed down to fit just inside the tubes, which will give them a flat end to the blades, which gives better performance in the tubes. Balll end joints connect to the servos, one on the upright between the tubes, another on the side of one tube. The tubes will be connected with another ball-end jointed arm, like the tie rod on a car, to keep them pointing together with one input. The shaft in the center will be on a bearing, to allow the whole assembly to pivot for the up/down control.
Also, been working on the hull. I started with seperate wood carvings of the turtle body, head, tail, and flippers. I took silicon molds from those, and cast fiberglass matte with epoxy to make the parts. The top of the shell is seperate from the bottom plate, to allow access to the inside. There will be a plxi tube inside for a water tight compartment to hold the radio and motors. The front flippers will pivot, to act as forward dive planes. The props will tuck in under the tail area.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/640iiryp3/IMG_2025.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/ssppicvif/IMG_2026.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/m2988xg2f/IMG_2027.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/h3lpuejzb/IMG_2028.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 14, 2018, 11:31:45 PM
Fascinating stuff Chris.

Are you on another forum where you show these projects being built?

Or are you just teasing us?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 14, 2018, 11:36:59 PM
Fascinating stuff Chris.

Are you on another forum where you show these projects being built?

Or are you just teasing us?
I've written up these unusual ones for the quarterly report of the Subcommittee, which is a forum and club for rc submarines. You have to be a paid member to get those reports, the group sponsers meets like our big one in August.


The teasing is just a bonus!   :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on February 15, 2018, 12:37:59 AM
May we have some MORE please Sir?
Lots more?
That is fantastic, I had to go change my shirt, luckily I am on my laptop and the keyboard stayed dry.
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 15, 2018, 02:33:23 AM
May we have some MORE please Sir?
Lots more?
That is fantastic, I had to go change my shirt, luckily I am on my laptop and the keyboard stayed dry.
Gerald.
We'll have to get you a waterproof keyboard!   :Lol:


I'll be posting more on it soon, am making a big push to get the sub done before the end of the month.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on February 15, 2018, 10:10:53 AM
Hi Chris,
 Oh I do like these side tracks you keep throwing in! That turtle is going be neat to watch!

Is that a pile of Stanley engine drawings I spied under Turtle?

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 15, 2018, 01:57:06 PM
Hi Chris,
 Oh I do like these side tracks you keep throwing in! That turtle is going be neat to watch!

Is that a pile of Stanley engine drawings I spied under Turtle?

Cheers Kerrin
Yes, those are the engine drawings for a full size Stanley motor, wondered if Zee would see that and yell at me for not making that instead!   :Lol:   It was going to be the current project, till I found out about the Marion here. It is next in the queue, though I'll be making it as a scaled down engine rather than the full size (too big for my lathe).
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 15, 2018, 09:49:38 PM
Is that a pile of Stanley engine drawings I spied under Turtle?
Yes, those are the engine drawings for a full size Stanley motor, wondered if Zee would see that and yell at me for not making that instead!

I can answer that... :cussing: :cussing: :cussing:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 15, 2018, 09:51:18 PM
Is that a pile of Stanley engine drawings I spied under Turtle?
Yes, those are the engine drawings for a full size Stanley motor, wondered if Zee would see that and yell at me for not making that instead!

I can answer that... :cussing: :cussing: :cussing:
Oh. Oh my. Such language!

Wait, what was that last one? Oooh, gotta write that one down!

 :lolb:

Zee, you have a nice new shop, I can send you the plans to start it yourself while you are waiting!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 15, 2018, 10:01:02 PM
So, while security escorts Zee off the premises, while making notes on the words for their next union meeting with management, here is a short video of the gimbal mount for the submarine props. Got the rest of it made up today, ready to mount onto the tail of the sea turtle.
41HW8oFi1Rs
As mentioned before, this week is diverted from the normally scheduled build of the steam shovel to get the new sub ready before our next RC sub run at the Y pool in a couple weeks. Sorry for the delay on the shovel progress, but whatta-you-gonna-do, too many hobbies, not enough chocolate chips!   :shrug:

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 16, 2018, 12:41:15 AM
Is that a pile of Stanley engine drawings I spied under Turtle?
Yes, those are the engine drawings for a full size Stanley motor, wondered if Zee would see that and yell at me for not making that instead!

I can answer that... :cussing: :cussing: :cussing:
Oh. Oh my. Such language!

Wait, what was that last one? Oooh, gotta write that one down!

I'm happy to repeat.... :cussing:

But I know what you mean about having a bunch of hobbies. My problem is...I finish nothing. I enjoy the road too much.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 16, 2018, 01:01:41 AM
Is that a pile of Stanley engine drawings I spied under Turtle?
Yes, those are the engine drawings for a full size Stanley motor, wondered if Zee would see that and yell at me for not making that instead!

I can answer that... :cussing: :cussing: :cussing:
Oh. Oh my. Such language!

Wait, what was that last one? Oooh, gotta write that one down!

I'm happy to repeat.... :cussing:

But I know what you mean about having a bunch of hobbies. My problem is...I finish nothing. I enjoy the road too much.
Up at the shoot tonight, was talking with one of the guys that is big into old cars, steam engines, etc - turns out he has a real engine out of a Stanley steamer, complete except for missing one cylinder cap. Gotta get over and see that...
And, unless the really unlikely happens and I find out about another big steam machine in town again, the Stanley engine is my next build. Most likely. I think. Probably. For now....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on February 17, 2018, 04:42:46 PM
Hi Chris,
 Oh I do like these side tracks you keep throwing in! That turtle is going be neat to watch!

Is that a pile of Stanley engine drawings I spied under Turtle?

Cheers Kerrin
Yes, those are the engine drawings for a full size Stanley motor, wondered if Zee would see that and yell at me for not making that instead!   :Lol:   It was going to be the current project, till I found out about the Marion here. It is next in the queue, though I'll be making it as a scaled down engine rather than the full size (too big for my lathe).
That sounds like a good reason to get a larger lathe, one can never have too many tools.
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 17, 2018, 07:36:18 PM
Hi Chris,
 Oh I do like these side tracks you keep throwing in! That turtle is going be neat to watch!

Is that a pile of Stanley engine drawings I spied under Turtle?

Cheers Kerrin
Yes, those are the engine drawings for a full size Stanley motor, wondered if Zee would see that and yell at me for not making that instead!   :Lol:   It was going to be the current project, till I found out about the Marion here. It is next in the queue, though I'll be making it as a scaled down engine rather than the full size (too big for my lathe).
That sounds like a good reason to get a larger lathe, one can never have too many tools.
Gerald.
Got plenty of tools - a big lathe and mill would need a new room added like Zee did! Or convert one of my other shops to a machine shop, then I'd need a replacement room for THAT shop... Then need a place to display the bigger engine, so another room for THAT... Sigh. Never ends!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 17, 2018, 10:15:04 PM
Today's update for the sea turtle RC submarine (again, apologies to those tuning in for the Marion build, I am sidetracked for a couple more days on getting this sub knocked out for a run coming up soon, be back on the Marion by midweek at the latest).
The rear fins and the prop gimbal mechanism are complete and attached:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/x1zy1cm4n/IMG_2031.jpg)
Just epoxied in the pivot bearings for the front flippers, also completed the control horn and stop collar on the flipper shaft:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/h3r8b7k6v/IMG_2030.jpg)
The holes you see in the bottom of the shell are fill/drain holes - almost all these subs need them to let the water in/air out as it goes into the water, opposite when taking it out of the water. The hulls free flood, and there is a water tight cylinder inside for the motor/radio/batteries. Otherwise, the hull would have to be a lot stronger, and would need a lot more ballast to get them down to a decks-awash (in this case head-awash?) state for further diving. Some of the models, mostly those with internal ballast tanks that can take in/pump out water, do have a full pressure hull. This type, called a dynamic diver, does not, and needs forward motion on the dive planes (flippers) to take it the rest of the way under the surface.
Anyway, here is a shot from the head end, the head was attached yesterday. Something not usually seen, a sea turtle up on jack stands for maintenance! 
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9nrypfbx3/IMG_2032.jpg)
The top shell slips over the base plate, and has locator pins with little hitch pins to hold it in place.
So, the 'hull' is about done, time to move on to make the WTC for the electronics - that will be from clear acrylic tube and sheet....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 18, 2018, 05:26:13 PM
This morning I gathered up the parts that will go in the watertight compartment of the sub, started laying them out on the table, and quickly realized that to get them arranged in a small enough package that it would be best to lay it out in 3D. So, modelled up the parts as outline bodies in Fusion, and spent some time rearranging them till it all fit in a short tube. I have some 4.5" OD polycarbonate tube and some 1/4" flat sheet stock that it will be made of. The servo tray is plastic also, and will be attached to the end plate with all the thru-hull fittings, so it will all come out in one piece with all the servo rods in place.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/6cc1evnx3/Turtle_WTC_v8.jpg)
The green boxes are the servos, red is motor, blue is battery, brown is speed control, yellow is reciever, dark green is switch, and the fittings at the bottom right are the motor and output shaft pulleys, thruhulls, and the motor mount plate, which allows for tensioning the belt.
Should all build fairly quick, done several of these in the past, and I have the thru-hull fittings already, made a spare set on a previous sub build. The polycarbonate tube needs some flat blocks milled and bonded to it to give enough thickness for the bolts to hold the end caps on, which will have rubber gaskets to seal it all up.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on February 18, 2018, 05:31:09 PM
Hi Chris ,interesting stuff going on there...That was my job in the army as a control equipment technician !! no gyros though to stop it flipping over !!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 18, 2018, 05:37:10 PM
Hi Chris ,interesting stuff going on there...That was my job in the army as a control equipment technician !! no gyros though to stop it flipping over !!!
No warhead either!  Well, a turtle head, but it does not explode!
This one probably costs a few million less than the army ones too...  :o

Bet with your experience you could build a very nice RC submarine. Should have had you design the mechanism for my rowboat a couple years ago.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 19, 2018, 08:38:31 PM
Good progress on the WTC for the sub, started with cutting some strips of the plastic to make the thickeners for where the bolts go, and milled the inside faces to match the curve of the tube:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/jhitcr1xj/IMG_2035.jpg)
Cut the strips into the individual parts, and solvent-welded them onto the tube. After that set up, drilled and installed some threaded inserts I made out of brass (with grooves horizontally and vertically cut into them to give the epoxy a mechanical grip on them), and drilled for the prop shaft thru hulls. Here is where it is now:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kwke1gfvb/IMG_2036.jpg)
And a closer up view of the fittings and belt:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8up07becn/IMG_2037.jpg)
Next I need to make the mount for the motor, which will include an adjustable plate to allow for tensioning the belt when its all in place.
Hopefully a couple more days and I'll be back on the Marion build again!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on February 19, 2018, 10:42:49 PM
Just wondering what material you use for the glands on the prop shafts and servo rods . . . I expect you have mentioned it somewhere but I couldn't find it.

This stuff is just as fascinating as the machine builds. I love to see all your techniques and machining setups. All stored away for when I get some 'shop time  :cheers:

Mike.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 19, 2018, 11:13:49 PM
Just wondering what material you use for the glands on the prop shafts and servo rods . . . I expect you have mentioned it somewhere but I couldn't find it.

This stuff is just as fascinating as the machine builds. I love to see all your techniques and machining setups. All stored away for when I get some 'shop time  :cheers:

Mike.
Thanks Mike, probably have not mentioned it here. The thru-hull fittings are all viton o-ring compression style, the outer nut holds the o-ring, and pushes it against the 'post' part of the main fitting, which has a slight concave on the end to push the o-rong against the shaft. With a little oil or grease, and an o-ring that is a snug fit on the shaft, it makes for a nice watertight seal while allowing the shaft to spin (in case of props) or slide (servos). I put a little blue loctite on the threads of the outer nut to hold it in place but still allow for wrench turning it to adjust the compression.
All of the WTC seals on the end caps and around the fittings are cut from rubber sheet, usually viton, sometimes silicone. This setup is how I've done all my subs, and usually get no more than a teaspoon of water into the WTC (if any at all) for the hour or two of run time I get on the battery pack. We are only going a few feet down in most cases, maybe 6 or 8 in a good pool, so the pressures are not all that high.

One more shop session for the day, and I got the motor mount made. It is just a couple of standoffs, bolted to the end cap, with a plate that bolts to the end of the motor, and has a bolt hole and a slot to hold it to the standoffs and allow tensioning the belt. I have not used a toothed belt like this in a long time (last time was 35 years ago on the Sabino model), so I am not sure how tight it needs to be, so I am going to start a little loose and experiment from there.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/lh40hzlnr/IMG_2038.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/dodcq07yv/IMG_2039.jpg)
Next up will be the servo tray from some sheet plastic, get that made, then finalize the positions of the thru-hulls for the servo rods and the on-off switch rod. Once that all is done, I can wire it up, then make the gaskets, and get it mounted in the hull. Usually use a simple cradle with some velcro straps to hold it in place. Getting close to a ballast session in the tub!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on February 20, 2018, 12:05:20 AM
Hi Chris yup i could do it but,  as this was in the previous millennium it would be thermionic valves and stuff...i learnt all my electronics in the early sixties  !! now there are things called integrated circuits and transistors and stuff !!!stuff you cannot repair !! When i was on maneuverers some equipment failed and the gunnery sergeant said what was wrong, and i said one of the field effect transistors had blown ,but ,if i had a lathe i could turn one up !! next thing i knew the machinery wagon arrived !! :facepalm: :Doh: ::)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 20, 2018, 12:16:25 AM
Hi Chris yup i could do it but,  as this was in the previous millennium it would be thermionic valves and stuff...i learnt all my electronics in the early sixties  !! now there are things called integrated circuits and transistors and stuff !!!stuff you cannot repair !! When i was on maneuverers some equipment failed and the gunnery sergeant said what was wrong, and i said one of the field effect transistors had blown ,but ,if i had a lathe i could turn one up !! next thing i knew the machinery wagon arrived !! :facepalm: :Doh: ::)


 :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Firebird on February 20, 2018, 07:14:28 PM
Hi

Where Oh where do you find the time to do all this :headscratch: :thinking:

Let me in on your secret and I'll buy you a  :DrinkPint:

Cheers

Rich
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 20, 2018, 09:38:06 PM
Hi

Where Oh where do you find the time to do all this :headscratch: :thinking:

Let me in on your secret and I'll buy you a  :DrinkPint:

Cheers

Rich
Hi Rich,

Oooh, tough question, but worth a  :DrinkPint: !

One word: Retirement!
I took early retirement from Kodak about 5 years ago when they went through bankruptcy and shut down all the consumer businesses (there is still a little of the commercial business side of the company left, any consumer products you see now named Kodak are third party licensees of the name). So, still young enough to be in good health, there long enough to start drawing pension early, and it frees up 9 hours of the day for playing on things I like to do!
Much lower stress, more time for outdoors stuff, no !@#%!@#ing meetings, and lots of hobbies. Can you see my smile from there?
 ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 20, 2018, 09:47:32 PM
Hey, an actual update on the Marion project!!!!

Okay, all I did was bring in the mail and open an envelope, but I'll take that. The chain I ordered off eBay showed up today (well, one of the two versions, niether gave exact dimensions so I got some of each). It looks much better than the clock chain I had, much thicker wire was used in it. Here is a pic of the new chain on the left, old on the right:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/m3ysdgurr/IMG_2041.jpg)
I like the shape of the old better, but it is too lightweight, so I am leaning to the new one for now, will see how the other batch looks when it arrives. My thanks again to Dan Rowe for finding it for me! He also mentioned a way to get rid of the shiny finish, quick shot with a torch to dull it down and blacken it more like a raw metal chain. This chain is stainless steel, with some sort of shiny chrome-ish finish on it. Here it is after a shot of flame on the last few links:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dygqfbe8n/IMG_2043.jpg)
Makes it look much better for this model.

Dan, take a bag of cookies and a glass of Guiness out of petty cash!   :cheers:

This morning I got the servo tray for the sub cut out, am in the process of getting it bonded to the supports to attach it to the end cap. Would have been done by now, but a molar I have been having trouble with (it has a hairline crack in the base, under the metal crown) has flared up again  with an infection, so off to the dentist. The antibiotics should (I hope) knock this down so he can find out the root ( ! ) cause on the next visit. In the meantime, I think I can get the work on the sub finished in another couple days, and back to work on the Marion again! Got one more week before the pool run, so the timing is looking okay, assuming no setbacks (like spending time outside, it was over 70 today, not bad for mid February in upstate NY).
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dan Rowe on February 20, 2018, 09:54:42 PM
Chris that chain looks really good especially after a bit of heat, The smokebox on my Shay is SS muffler pipe. I have cycled it through the burn out oven a few times and it really looks like a real smokebox no paint needed.

Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 20, 2018, 09:58:40 PM
Chris that chain looks really good especially after a bit of heat, The smokebox on my Shay is SS muffler pipe. I have cycled it through the burn out oven a few times and it really looks like a real smokebox no paint needed.

Dan
How durable is the color it imparts, does it just rub off again, or is it into the surface itself? Looks much better than painting it would, and the chemical blackeners dont usually work well on a lot of the SS alloys.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dan Rowe on February 20, 2018, 10:36:12 PM
Chris, I took a normal eraser to the finish and there was no change.

(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/6/213-200218143156.jpeg)

Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 21, 2018, 09:05:45 PM
The turtle guts are being made up one by one, got the mechanical parts of the WTC almost done now. The u-joints that will go from the output shafts to the props are on, as is the tube to hold the radio antenna (that still needs to be epoxied to the end cap, and the other end sealed up).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/hjhnve1vr/IMG_2044.jpg)
The servo linkages to the thru-hulls are also done, and the receiver in place.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5hma18kxj/IMG_2045.jpg)
The remaining tasks: wire up the speed control unit to the battery and motor, make the gaskets for the thru-hulls and end caps, get the WTC mounted to the hull, make the final linkages from the WTC to the props and fins, and get it all ballasted/balanced.  Getting close to going back to work on the steam shovel, thanks for your patience!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on February 22, 2018, 01:34:37 AM
Hi Chris,   just a quick thought...should the props turn in different directions to stop the turtle turning turtle ? or do the tubes prevent this happening ? or is the weight distribution avoiding that ? just pondering...torque reaction and all that (that i have no knowledge of).......
willy
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 22, 2018, 01:57:49 AM
Hi Chris,   just a quick thought...should the props turn in different directions to stop the turtle turning turtle ? or do the tubes prevent this happening ? or is the weight distribution avoiding that ? just pondering...torque reaction and all that (that i have no knowledge of).......
willy
Hi Willy,
Normally I would set them up for counter rotation, especially on a fixed prop or a high speed surface penetrating prop, but for this model its not important enough to justify the extra mechanisms. The steerable nozzles help prevent prop walk and torque steer, plus this is a low speed model. That said, we'll see how it behaves! I'd have it ready to go by now, if I wasn't fighting this #@$-*\+ tooth! Keep having to take breaks, more aspirin... Actually looking forward to seeing the dentist again Friday.
Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 22, 2018, 02:04:55 AM
Actually looking forward to seeing the dentist again Friday.

Ah the consequences of mint chocolate chip cookies.

That, or payback from some higher being.  ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 22, 2018, 02:27:01 AM
Actually looking forward to seeing the dentist again Friday.

Ah the consequences of mint chocolate chip cookies.

That, or payback from some higher being.  ;D
Probably a plot by the elves to get more of the cookies for themselves!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Admiral_dk on February 22, 2018, 12:11:37 PM
Chris I know that you have been asked about RC under water before, but I got another one. On full size subs they use VLF (Very Low Frequency) radios in order to be able to have connection down to some depth - do you use as low frequency as possible RC equipment or is even the new 2.4GHz. RC gear useable down to the few feet you go ?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 22, 2018, 06:09:31 PM
Chris I know that you have been asked about RC under water before, but I got another one. On full size subs they use VLF (Very Low Frequency) radios in order to be able to have connection down to some depth - do you use as low frequency as possible RC equipment or is even the new 2.4GHz. RC gear useable down to the few feet you go ?
We also have to use the older lower frequency radios (hard to find now, out of production in most brands), like 75 mhz and below. The 2.4ghz radios now common just skip off the water, useless without an above-water antenna. No where near as low as the ultra low stuff the sub fleets use!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 22, 2018, 06:12:47 PM
Probably no work on either model today, last night the tooth attacked me  :cussing: , made a emergency run into the dentist this morning to get the old crown off to let it drain and such. No sleep last night, so off to some naps!

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 24, 2018, 02:06:20 AM
Probably no work on either model today, last night the tooth attacked me  :cussing: , made a emergency run into the dentist this morning to get the old crown off to let it drain and such. No sleep last night, so off to some naps!

Things have apparently turned the corner on the tooth, swelling in the jaw is down and I am not counting off the minutes to the next painkiller, so hopefully can get back to the models soon. Think I only need another day or so on the sub, some of it waiting for some different belt parts to solve a slipping issue, so may actually get some work done on the chain pulley for the Marion this weekend!

On an even more positive note, the first check for the Lombard article series came today  :cartwheel: , so I finally splurged (been wanting it for a while) and spent it on the larger XY base for my Sherline, been running into the Y distance limit WAY too much these last couple of models. Should have that this coming week, will post pics when it shows up.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on February 24, 2018, 02:36:03 AM
Hi Chris, Have you looked into the 344 MHz radios? I have been following ScratchbuildwithJohn on Utube, He is in Australia and using 433 MHz with his sub.
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 24, 2018, 02:45:47 AM
Hi Chris, Have you looked into the 344 MHz radios? I have been following ScratchbuildwithJohn on Utube, He is in Australia and using 433 MHz with his sub.
Gerald.
Have not heard of the 344 band, brings up two questions:
-are they still being made?
-are they legal in the US? Things do vary by country.
Okay, 3 questions, who makes them?
Some in our club with ham license use 53 mhz, think it is.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ClaytonFirth on February 24, 2018, 11:20:08 PM
Hi Chris, Have you looked into the 344 MHz radios? I have been following ScratchbuildwithJohn on Utube, He is in Australia and using 433 MHz with his sub.
Gerald.
Have not heard of the 344 band, brings up two questions:
-are they still being made?
-are they legal in the US? Things do vary by country.
Okay, 3 questions, who makes them?
Some in our club with ham license use 53 mhz, think it is.
Chris,
There are plenty of 433Mhz rc radio's still being made. I did a quick check on Amazon and they were available in the US, they are widely available in Australia.

I believe that you need to be a licensed Ham operator to use devices in the 433 spectrum in the US, as the DoD does use those frequencies, probably best to check with local authorities though.

I've done a lot of commercial work with 433Mhz devices in a variety of conditions. The best i had was working on a quarry in NZ, we had a bunch of transmitters mounted on loaders and sending telemetry from load cells in the buckets back to a controller. The loaders could operate up to 5-6 km without line of site before we got issues.

CF
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 24, 2018, 11:46:56 PM
Hi Chris, Have you looked into the 344 MHz radios? I have been following ScratchbuildwithJohn on Utube, He is in Australia and using 433 MHz with his sub.
Gerald.
Have not heard of the 344 band, brings up two questions:
-are they still being made?
-are they legal in the US? Things do vary by country.
Okay, 3 questions, who makes them?
Some in our club with ham license use 53 mhz, think it is.
Chris,
There are plenty of 433Mhz rc radio's still being made. I did a quick check on Amazon and they were available in the US, they are widely available in Australia.

I believe that you need to be a licensed Ham operator to use devices in the 433 spectrum in the US, as the DoD does use those frequencies, probably best to check with local authorities though.

I've done a lot of commercial work with 433Mhz devices in a variety of conditions. The best i had was working on a quarry in NZ, we had a bunch of transmitters mounted on loaders and sending telemetry from load cells in the buckets back to a controller. The loaders could operate up to 5-6 km without line of site before we got issues.

CF
Thanks for the info! I guess its since the 433 requires the ham license that I dont see them much. Though, just took a look around on the web, and I am not seeing much of anything in 433 for the RC model market, with joystick type transmitters, receiver/servos, that sort of kit. It all seems to be other type devices, for things like you describe rather than the models.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: bouch on February 25, 2018, 02:01:19 PM

On a side note, Live Steam has put up the cover for the next issue on their website, should look familiar to those who followed my last build!
(https://s5.postimg.org/6nw7cdvsn/Magazine_Cover.jpg)
I should be getting my copies soon, so back to staring at the mailbox between making submarine parts...


I got my copy earlier this week.  Looking forward to reading the articles.

But, last night I was rummaging through old photo albums, and instead of finding the photos I was looking for, I found the photos of when Clark's Trading Post brought their Lombard to the Model T Snowmobile meet in Thornton, NH.  It was on Feb 24, 2001.  They had a large, open field to run on, and it was a pretty cold day, so lots of good steam.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4745/40476486481_a96bb04a0d_z.jpg)

<Edit> - ok, why is my image not showing?  - Here's the URL... </Edit>
https://www.flickr.com/photos/50387839@N03/40476486481/in/dateposted-public/

I have more, if you're interested...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 25, 2018, 03:47:40 PM

On a side note, Live Steam has put up the cover for the next issue on their website, should look familiar to those who followed my last build!
(https://s5.postimg.org/6nw7cdvsn/Magazine_Cover.jpg)
I should be getting my copies soon, so back to staring at the mailbox between making submarine parts...


I got my copy earlier this week.  Looking forward to reading the articles.

But, last night I was rummaging through old photo albums, and instead of finding the photos I was looking for, I found the photos of when Clark's Trading Post brought their Lombard to the Model T Snowmobile meet in Thornton, NH.  It was on Feb 24, 2001.  They had a large, open field to run on, and it was a pretty cold day, so lots of good steam.

(https://www.flickr.com/photos/50387839@N03/40476486481/in/dateposted-public/)

<Edit> - ok, why is my image not showing?  - Here's the URL... </Edit>
https://www.flickr.com/photos/50387839@N03/40476486481/in/dateposted-public/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/50387839@N03/40476486481/in/dateposted-public/)

I have more, if you're interested...
Thanks Bouch, that looks like a fun day!


I have looked at Clark Tradings websites, they don't say anything about the Lombard, which puzzles me. Its still there, i gather, but they don't seem to be running it anymore.


For pictures, use the little rectangular button next to the youtube button to pop up the dialog to put the url in, then it will show in the post.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Mikem on February 25, 2018, 05:36:50 PM
That was an awesome weekend of lombarding but cold , I think it took me the rest of the year to warm up . The coolest thing was watching how to replace the belts in a model t tranny on Friday nite !
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 25, 2018, 11:45:47 PM
Well, some good news finally: the tooth is finally on the mend, swelling in jaw is almost gone, lots of sleep the last day/night, and I felt up to a bunch of shop time today!  Got just a bit more to do on the submarine, then will be back at the Marion again this week. Thanks all for your patience!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: bouch on February 26, 2018, 12:30:53 AM
Thanks Bouch, that looks like a fun day!

I have looked at Clark Tradings websites, they don't say anything about the Lombard, which puzzles me. Its still there, i gather, but they don't seem to be running it anymore.

It's definitely still there, last I saw it (about 1.5 years ago) it was under a shelter across the tracks from the brick enginehouse, up by the covered bridge.  I'm assuming it hasn't moved lately.

Whether or not it runs any given year depends on a bunch of factors, including (but not limited to)
- What they're working on over the winter.  Between then and now, they rebuilt EB&L #5, They acquired a 44 tonner, and the usual maintenance on the rolling stock. Recently, They've had to do a lot of work on the climax, needed new gears between the engine and the driveshafts.  They've also been reassembling the Heisler (although I understand it won't run again, just on display.)
- How much snow there is.  As you can imagine, they need a good base of snow to run it.  Some winters have had relatively little snow, and they don't run it in the summer (too busy with the railroad)
- Health.  Dave Clark has had his share of health issues over the past few years, which hasn't helped.

They haven't even had their "Steam Weekend" for the past few years for combinations of these reasons, and that's during their operating season.  I have been told they're having one this year, but I don't know the dates yet.  (Usually in September, after the busiest part of the tourist season)  When I find out, I'll let you know so you can make the trip and get your model a photo with another full sized one.  And I'm sure Dave, Leon, and others would love to see it.

That was an awesome weekend of lombarding but cold , I think it took me the rest of the year to warm up . The coolest thing was watching how to replace the belts in a model t tranny on Friday nite !

Cold is an understatement.  I walked the length of the field to get photos from "the other end", and with the wind blowing across the field, I couldn't feel just about anything by the time I got back.  (the field was probably 1/2 mile long).  I was invited to drive it, and it was quite an interesting sensation when steering; my back was warm, but my front was half frozen.  Pulling the throttle was a lot warmer!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 26, 2018, 02:15:32 AM
Sounds like they have a lot going on! If you hear of a date for the steam weekend this year, I'd love to know, would be great to see it, and would definitely take the model.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on February 26, 2018, 06:14:44 PM
Hi Chris, Have you looked into the 344 MHz radios? I have been following ScratchbuildwithJohn on Utube, He is in Australia and using 433 MHz with his sub.
Gerald.
Have not heard of the 344 band, brings up two questions:
-are they still being made?
-are they legal in the US? Things do vary by country.
Okay, 3 questions, who makes them?
Some in our club with ham license use 53 mhz, think it is.
Hi Chris,
the information I know I got from U-tube watching ScratchbuildwithJohn. He is using a add-on unit from one of the Chinese sellers (maybe Hobby King) which fits on the back of his radio transmitter replacing the RF from the radio with a 433MHz band transceiver. One of the links he gave listed the legal frequencies and for Canada and USA they listed 344MHz. I think that most of the equipment he is using is from Hobby King or Bangood. As to whether it requires an Ham license I don't know.
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 26, 2018, 06:23:42 PM
Hi Chris, Have you looked into the 344 MHz radios? I have been following ScratchbuildwithJohn on Utube, He is in Australia and using 433 MHz with his sub.
Gerald.
Have not heard of the 344 band, brings up two questions:
-are they still being made?
-are they legal in the US? Things do vary by country.
Okay, 3 questions, who makes them?
Some in our club with ham license use 53 mhz, think it is.
Hi Chris,
the information I know I got from U-tube watching ScratchbuildwithJohn. He is using a add-on unit from one of the Chinese sellers (maybe Hobby King) which fits on the back of his radio transmitter replacing the RF from the radio with a 433MHz band transceiver. One of the links he gave listed the legal frequencies and for Canada and USA they listed 344MHz. I think that most of the equipment he is using is from Hobby King or Bangood. As to whether it requires an Ham license I don't know.
Gerald.
Thanks for the info - we are having a run at the Y pool this weekend, I'll ask our resident radio gurus (Don & Patti) about it!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 26, 2018, 08:20:48 PM
Okay, back in the shop on the Marion build again!   :whoohoo:

The current set of parts is for the large pulley that holds the top of the yoke on the dipper bucket, and takes the main hoist chain. I had previously made the sheave, and am continuing on with the shell.

Here is the original:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wlfltvz47/DSC_6171.jpg)
Fabrication started with rough cutting out the two side plates from some thin steel flat stock and taking them close to shape on the belt sander. Then, clamping them together to drill the hole for the main axle of the sheave, then a pair of close-fit 5-40 clearance holes .550" out from that hole. The second two holes will act as hold-downs on the milling plate, and will be hidden in the final assembly by the side straps.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/sq1a5nuhz/IMG_2049.jpg)
Then, a piece of aluminum bar, which had been used to make cylinder caps in a previous model, was dug out of the spare parts bin and clamped up in the 4-jaw chuck. Center drilled a hole in it on the lathe to give a centering aid, and moved the chuck and part over to the rotary table. You can see a set of other holes in the plates, they were from the other model.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/otny9nenb/IMG_2048.jpg)
Now, I was going to just use the tooling plate on the rotary table, but these plates need a number of arcs with different center points as well as angled straight lines, so a dedicated fixture was better. So, using the center hole as a guide, the rotary table was centered under the mill head, and the handwheels zeroed to that. With the table turned so that the chuck jaws were at a 45 degree angle to the axis of the mill table, to keep the drilled holes to come away from the jaws, I drilled holes .550" out from the center on the X axis to match the ones in the side plates. Then, moved the mill table left .095 and in .1824, and used that as a starting point for a second set of holes, used for the arc down one side of the plates. Last, moved the table back out double the .1824 and drilled a third set to be used to mill the second arc. These holes are the ones with the blue lines connecting them. With the plates bolted to the center set, the plates are centered on the rotary table. With them bolted to either side set, they are positioned to mill the side arcs.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/986mpq59z/IMG_2053.jpg)
So, bolted the plates on one side, with the bottom of the plates away from the original 'left' offset, made a note of the angle setting on the rotary table for later reference, and milled the arc on one side till it went tangent to the edge of the plate (the bar stock was 2" wide, which matched the width of the part).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xbxee00lj/IMG_2054.jpg)
Then, moved the plates over to the other side holes, and milled the second arc:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/go5wbidjr/IMG_2055.jpg)
With the two arcs done, the plates were moved back to the center holes, the rotary table turned so the parts were perpendicular to the mill table, and the straight bottom edge was milled in to dimension.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bcqzqtmc7/IMG_2056.jpg)
That just left the two upper sides to mill, at a 45 degree angle:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/du2qy2yiv/IMG_2057.jpg)
Here are the parts so far:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/z3qd8xu93/IMG_2060.jpg)
The brass block on the right will become the spacer between the plates, the outside will be milled like the side plates were, then I'll cut out the center part to leave a narrow three sided strip that will get riveted to the side plates later on. I thought about bending this from bar stock, but since it needs two specific arcs, a straight center, and sharp corners between,  and has to be accurate and stright enough to sit flat between the plates, I am more confident in milling it out rather than bending it.

Good to be back on the Marion project again, the sub is to the point where I am doing background glueing of parts and small assemblies, its machine shop time should be done.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on February 27, 2018, 02:20:44 PM
Great work on that. Do you have digital readouts on your mill. I get watching and enjoying the write-up and photos and then there is a shot that reminds me that this is a small Sherline you are doing it on, fantastic.
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: J.L. on February 27, 2018, 02:23:29 PM
Hi Chris,
Beautiful sequential photography here!  :ThumbsUp:
John
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 27, 2018, 03:42:59 PM
Great work on that. Do you have digital readouts on your mill. I get watching and enjoying the write-up and photos and then there is a shot that reminds me that this is a small Sherline you are doing it on, fantastic.
Gerald.
Nope, no DRO or CNC, do have zero resettable handwheels.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 27, 2018, 03:43:28 PM
Hi Chris,
Beautiful sequential photography here!  :ThumbsUp:
John
Thanks John!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 27, 2018, 07:11:07 PM
More on the chain pulley parts, used the same setup as for the outer plates to mill the profiles into the brass for the bottom spacer:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/jylj35vbr/IMG_2062.jpg)
and then to drill the rivet holes around the edge, with the plates stacked in place with the spacer:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dkwfzxt0n/IMG_2064.jpg)
Then milled in the inner slot along the bottom edge:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xs9vs83cn/IMG_2066.jpg)
The hold down bolt prevented me from milling all the way across the bottom, so the last bit was sawn out then cleaned up in the mill vise:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/hu1623guf/IMG_2067.jpg)
and the family of parts for the pulley so far:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dkwfzxlav/IMG_2068.jpg)
Next up is to make the side straps. Once those are riveted in place, I can rivet the assembly together. To get the sheave to turn more easily, I am thinking of making a small slip-on set of bearings for the axles, just a thin tube of bronze should do it.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 27, 2018, 10:34:19 PM
Got a start on the side straps this afternoon. They take the weight of the bucket from the chain, and also hole the sheave axle centered in the side plates. The tricky bit with them was to make the double sets of bends in the center, where they bump out for the sheave axle. So, not having a bending brake, I designed up a little bending jig to do that job.
Started by laying out the bend points on the steel flat stock, and bending the two outer 45 degree bends, first one side:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xdce4g8pz/IMG_2072.jpg)
then the other:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/c3ortm053/IMG_2073.jpg)
Here comes the bending jig, which will keep the first bend from getting bent back out again - two bits of square stock, with some recesses to hold on the tops of the jaws and a 45-degree angled bit to hold the stock. Here is the bar clamped in place:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bqxdnfxav/IMG_2074.jpg)
Then took a pair of long-nose pliers and worked the center back up vertical:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/exrx72pgn/IMG_2075.jpg)
Thats one side done, turned the part over, and bent it too:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/exrx72a13/IMG_2076.jpg)
Presto, one side strap, ready to start drilling its holes for the axle and rivets. Ends get rounded as well.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/z55czdunr/IMG_2077.jpg)
It only took two tries to get the dimensions of the fixture correct, the first time the hook end was a little too long, making the center section too high - I had assumed it would bend back to the end of the hook, needed to allow a little radius there.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: b.lindsey on February 28, 2018, 12:45:38 AM
Very nice Chris. Good to see you back on it.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: bouch on February 28, 2018, 02:42:34 PM
Sounds like they have a lot going on! If you hear of a date for the steam weekend this year, I'd love to know, would be great to see it, and would definitely take the model.

This just came down the wire...

"Toot Toot It's #WayBackWednesday! How did 30 years go by so fast!? Mark your calendar now for our 60th Anniversary celebration September 15 & 16 2018"   (the "30 years" is in reference to a photo they had of a ribbon from their 1st "Steam weekend", which was their 30th anniversary celebration.)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 28, 2018, 02:50:39 PM
Sounds like they have a lot going on! If you hear of a date for the steam weekend this year, I'd love to know, would be great to see it, and would definitely take the model.

This just came down the wire...

"Toot Toot It's #WayBackWednesday! How did 30 years go by so fast!? Mark your calendar now for our 60th Anniversary celebration September 15 & 16 2018"   (the "30 years" is in reference to a photo they had of a ribbon from their 1st "Steam weekend", which was their 30th anniversary celebration.)

Excellent!!! Thanks!  Just went and looked at their website, and found this on the events page:
--------------------------------------
WHITE MOUNTAIN CENTRAL RAILROAD DAYS
Wolfman

Celebrate 60 years of riding the rails
September 15 & 16, 2018

Revel in the rich history of railroading with special excursions on the White Mountain Central Railroad. Rail fans can ride steam locomotives and see rare and unique equipment on display.

The Baldwin, Climax and Porter steam locomotives and a GE 65-ton diesel engine will be in operation on this spectacular weekend celebrating 60 years of riding the rails on the White Mountain Central Railroad. To join in the fun of Railroad Days, guests must purchase a general admission ticket at the railroad station. Tickets are $22 for ages 4-64 and $20 for ages 65 and up. Each ticket includes all the Railroad Days events, the bear show, train rides, plus all the rides and attractions Clark's has to offer.
More details for Railroad Days will be coming soon.
--------------------------------
Sent them an email asking about the Lombard as well, thanks again for the tip!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 28, 2018, 03:05:31 PM
This morning I got the side straps drilled and the ends trimmed off, here are the parts so far:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bl223bpev/IMG_2078.jpg)
Then made up the cross pins:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fu6s5i0dz/IMG_2079.jpg)
After lunch I'll get some rivet pins in place to align things temporarily, clamp it together, and drill for the rivets to hold the straps to the side plates...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 28, 2018, 06:38:02 PM
After lunch I started drilling holes for the rivets to hold the side straps on. With the assembly lined up and held with some clamps, holding it for drilling looked difficult. Then remembered I had a 1" mill vise that followed me home from Cabin Fever this winter, clamped the parts in that, and clamped that vertically in the mill vise - worked great. With that setup, I drilled through the top and bottom plates/straps in one go, for the outer holes.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3wev2gcwn/IMG_2081.jpg)
The inner holes were blocked by the sheave, so I riveted on the straps with the first four holes, then went back and drilled the rest with the plates seperately.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6dqm9q4iv/IMG_2083.jpg)
After test fitting the sheave would spin freely (took a few swipes with a file to square it up), the whole assembly was riveted together, using some small brass rod through the plates.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wm1qz441z/IMG_2084.jpg)
And here it is with the chain fed through, as it will hang in the model. Next up is to cross drill the axles for the cotter pins, and then make the U-shaped clevises that attach it to the yoke and to the end of the chain - there are two sheaves on the end of the boom, one in the pulley, so the chain ends at the top of the pulley.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fliuqfjav/IMG_2086.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: J.L. on February 28, 2018, 07:21:14 PM
Hi Chris,
A wonderful last shot to conclude the process.
Absolutely brilliant work.
John
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 28, 2018, 07:49:56 PM
Hi Chris,
A wonderful last shot to conclude the process.
Absolutely brilliant work.
John
Thanks John - now about that quarry diorama model....!  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 01, 2018, 12:38:36 AM
Wow. Seems like yesterday you were turtlle-ing.
Wonderful progress and pictures.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner_decoy on March 01, 2018, 12:44:14 AM
So Chris, firstly.. this is a 'lifting' pulley as it lifts the bucket arm, as distinct from the 'luffing' pulley [orientated in the horizontal plane] for raising or lowering [luffing] the jib beam?, is my assumption correct?.... it does make a difference in understanding :facepalm:

Is this pulley [wheel] free to rotate in the outer sheave plates, or does the chain simply slide through the channel recess as machined in the centre of the pulley?

Where I am coming from, is with the actual pulley sheave block would have been subject to wear, dust and a high level of friction between the chain links & the wheel and hence create a series of flats on the major diameter of the wheel?....if this happened, the friction between the chain & the wheel would tend to rotate the wheel

Also somewhere down the track, you will need to manufacture the luffing pulley.....will it be of a similar design with the luffing jib chain sliding around the when channel recess?

Or a final question :facepalm2:, is the luffing of the jib by wire or chain?

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 01, 2018, 02:05:44 AM
So Chris, firstly.. this is a 'lifting' pulley as it lifts the bucket arm, as distinct from the 'luffing' pulley [orientated in the horizontal plane] for raising or lowering [luffing] the jib beam?, is my assumption correct?.... it does make a difference in understanding :facepalm:

Is this pulley [wheel] free to rotate in the outer sheave plates, or does the chain simply slide through the channel recess as machined in the centre of the pulley?

Where I am coming from, is with the actual pulley sheave block would have been subject to wear, dust and a high level of friction between the chain links & the wheel and hence create a series of flats on the major diameter of the wheel?....if this happened, the friction between the chain & the wheel would tend to rotate the wheel

Also somewhere down the track, you will need to manufacture the luffing pulley.....will it be of a similar design with the luffing jib chain sliding around the when channel recess?

Or a final question :facepalm2: , is the luffing of the jib by wire or chain?

Derek
I'll try and elevate the discussion (lifting it) rather than drag it sideways (luffing)....


Nah!


This is definitely a pulley used for lifting, and lowering actually, with the chain connected to the main hoist engine.


When I hear of luffing, I think of letting the sail get too close to the wind and having it flap.... The entire boom assembly, main and dipper, rotates horizontally on a turntable with the slewing chain wrapped around the rim. That does have guide wheels at the back for the slew chain, but they are on fixed stands and look more like car rims, no shell around them.


The sheave in this pulley rotates on its axle inside the shell, turning with the chain. Its possible that it could develop flats from the chain over time, but I don't see that on the shovel here.


The only other sheaves on this shovel are the guide wheels along the main boom, and two at the tip of it that act with this pulley. When the turnable rotates, the vertical section of the chain that goes through the axis of rotation will twist to keep the chain in line on the guide wheels.


On the dredge version of the shovels, they did use cables in place of chains sometimes, but these large shovels from Marion were all chain at that time.


In their manuals, they give instructions for oiling the chain to keep wear to a minimum, and also recommend swapping ends periodically, and removing the links at the bucket end if they wear. Marion made all their own chain, had high specs for the alloys.


I think I covered all your questions, let me know if not! Very often the questions make me take a closer look at something that I have ignored myself!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 01, 2018, 02:08:57 AM
Wow. Seems like yesterday you were turtlle-ing.
Wonderful progress and pictures.
Waiting for some final parts, hope to be turtling at the pool Sunday evening.


Starting Monday there may be another break in the build as I go in for some heavy dental work.  :-[
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on March 01, 2018, 03:46:54 AM
I hope your dental work comes out ok. Tuesday I go in for a heart procedure. they say the quickest way to a mans heart is through his stomach, not so they go through your groin most of the time.
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on March 01, 2018, 05:36:15 AM
Hi Chris,
 Well 4 pages & I was only away 7 days! Enjoyed the catchup, the turtle is coming on great, nice to see how the the gear is all housed.
The pulley came out cool! After reading Derek’s query’s I went looking to see if I could find a picture of a “chain pulley” ....failed miserably! I was wondering IF the full size one had not a pulley as you have made, which I’m sure will work, but one that is set up so that it has the opposite configuration, hope that makes sense, which grips the alternate links. You find them in chain block hand winches, I’ve also see them used on valves were then valve is hi up.

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner_decoy on March 01, 2018, 07:48:19 AM
This [lower right] is about the best representation image I could find of a ....cast steel simple linked chain wheel......this obviously will transmit rotary motion, whereas the chain pulley wheel Chris has manufactured does not necessarily rotate nor transmit rotary motion...... [I must have been just getting  :hammerbash: ]
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ShopShoe on March 01, 2018, 12:45:14 PM
There is a good chain pulley in this video. Brian Block is building a large shop in an old barn and incorporates a bridge crane. The crane had been manually chain-driven, then electrified, then Brian decided to convert it back to chain operation. This video is part of the process.

uvhDZleeR-Y
If you have also followed Brian (bcbloc02 on YouTube), you will know that he did not replace the lifting cable and a heavy load fell while lifting (Worst Shop Day). Several of the other YouTube machining community have mentioned this. All in all, his shop build and posts show a one-man-band building a shop for heavy machining using large machines.

--ShopShoe
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 01, 2018, 12:46:43 PM
Kerrin/Derek, you guys are overthinking this one - this pulley, and the other sheaves in the boom, are not transmitting power by going from rotary to linear like a gear does. They are just guides like a pulley for ropes is, just keeping the chains in a track.
The pulley that I'm making now has sheaves that look exactly like these do, which are at the top of the main boom  - I don't have a picture that shows it this clearly at the pulley, since the pulley has the shell around it, but the sheave looks identical to these:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/699twvy5z/DSC_6173.jpg)
They are just simple wheels with a groove for every other link to sit vertically. No indents to generate power from or push the chain.
For the turntable, these are the guides - again, simple smooth shells, look like car tire rims:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7bk0ffop3/IMG_1454.jpg)
One is horizontal, the other has a slight angle, to guide the chain on one side to the bottom of the winch drum, the other to the top of the drum. The chain ends go around the rim of the turntable here:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dp93ip1av/DSC_6555.jpg)
and the ends are bolted into the bottom of the main boom. There is no indent or sprocket in the turntable, just the chains own weight to hold them down against the vertical lip. The middle of the chain wraps several times around the winch drum.
On the hoist chain, the end of the chain goes around its winch drum and secures to a half link welded to the side of the drum on the inside.

Hope that helps!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 01, 2018, 12:51:58 PM
There is a good chain pulley in this video. Brian Block is building a large shop in an old barn and incorporates a bridge crane. The crane had been manually chain-driven, then electrified, then Brian decided to convert it back to chain operation. This video is part of the process.

uvhDZleeR-Y
If you have also followed Brian (bcbloc02 on YouTube), you will know that he did not replace the lifting cable and a heavy load fell while lifting (Worst Shop Day). Several of the other YouTube machining community have mentioned this. All in all, his shop build and posts show a one-man-band building a shop for heavy machining using large machines.

--ShopShoe
Thats a neat video, great mechanism!

Again, that is not the type of pulley on the Marion (we were posting at the same time) - the wheels here are just smooth guides, not used to pull on the chain. All the power application to the chain is done by the winch drums, with multiple wraps of chain side by side on the slew drum, tensioned by bolts at the ends where they attach to the boom. For the hoist, the and of the chain shackles to the inside edge of the drum, then there were multiple wraps and layers of chain around the drum - no indents for links in the drums, the drums are several feet across with large sides to keep the chain contained.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on March 01, 2018, 01:04:36 PM
Great progress with the sheave block. Another masterclass in fabrication  :cheers:

As you say, the pulleys are just guides to change the direction of the pull so would always have been smooth. However, in the spirit of 'nit-picking', I wonder if the original block would have been open at the bottom to allow dirt, gravel, rocks, etc. to fall through rather than build up and jam the pulley? It appears to be so in the photo of full size one.

Clearly not likely to be a big problem on the model . . . so I'll get my coat  :paranoia:

Mike.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 01, 2018, 01:06:46 PM
More details - here is one of the guide pulleys on the main boom - this one takes the chain coming down the boom and sends it vertically through the middle of the turntable:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rwys7a147/DSC_6245.jpg)
There is another underneath the turntable to send it back horizontally to the winch drum inside the cab:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ip6jqkmc7/DSC_6517.jpg)
Note that there is no chain on this on at the moment - when they abandoned the shovel, they welded the links to the guide wheels above and cut off the remaining chain back to the drum - not sure what they used it for.
Here is the main hoist winch drum, you can see the link welded to the side where it anchored the end. There are grooves worn in the drum from 50 years of use, it started smooth.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gkm6ph59z/IMG_1246.jpg)
And here is the slew drum, the chain here is the middle of the one wrapped around the turntable. No attachment link, since to go around the turntable this chain would have to go more than several times around the drum.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ha4z1udjb/IMG_1351.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 01, 2018, 01:09:13 PM
Great progress with the sheave block. Another masterclass in fabrication  :cheers:

As you say, the pulleys are just guides to change the direction of the pull so would always have been smooth. However, in the spirit of 'nit-picking', I wonder if the original block would have been open at the bottom to allow dirt, gravel, rocks, etc. to fall through rather than build up and jam the pulley? It appears to be so in the photo of full size one.

Clearly not likely to be a big problem on the model . . . so I'll get my coat  :paranoia:

Mike.
I've wondered the same thing about the pulley - the original is damaged on the one side, part of the shell rim is gone, and the sides are bashed in, so its hard to tell. I think the same thing, that there was a gap in the bottom. Next time I get out there I'll take a closer look and see if I can find evidence of where the edge was.

No worries on pointing out anything I have missed - please do!! There are so many details on this machine that it takes many many looks to get them all, and I am not there yet!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on March 01, 2018, 01:23:26 PM
That photo of the turntable a few posts back really shows the scale of this thing, unless that's one of the 'shop elves posing there in his safety boots  :LittleDevil:

Hope the dental work goes as well as all your other projects.

Mike.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 01, 2018, 01:53:25 PM
That photo of the turntable a few posts back really shows the scale of this thing, unless that's one of the 'shop elves posing there in his safety boots  :LittleDevil:

Hope the dental work goes as well as all your other projects.

Mike.
Yeah - that was no elf, that was one of the Park Service guys up from SteamTown in PA to do the condition report on the shovel. That turntable is 8 feet diameter.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 01, 2018, 01:56:09 PM
Sounds like they have a lot going on! If you hear of a date for the steam weekend this year, I'd love to know, would be great to see it, and would definitely take the model.

This just came down the wire...

"Toot Toot It's #WayBackWednesday! How did 30 years go by so fast!? Mark your calendar now for our 60th Anniversary celebration September 15 & 16 2018"   (the "30 years" is in reference to a photo they had of a ribbon from their 1st "Steam weekend", which was their 30th anniversary celebration.)

Excellent!!! Thanks!  Just went and looked at their website, and found this on the events page:
--------------------------------------
WHITE MOUNTAIN CENTRAL RAILROAD DAYS
Wolfman

Celebrate 60 years of riding the rails
September 15 & 16, 2018

Revel in the rich history of railroading with special excursions on the White Mountain Central Railroad. Rail fans can ride steam locomotives and see rare and unique equipment on display.

The Baldwin, Climax and Porter steam locomotives and a GE 65-ton diesel engine will be in operation on this spectacular weekend celebrating 60 years of riding the rails on the White Mountain Central Railroad. To join in the fun of Railroad Days, guests must purchase a general admission ticket at the railroad station. Tickets are $22 for ages 4-64 and $20 for ages 65 and up. Each ticket includes all the Railroad Days events, the bear show, train rides, plus all the rides and attractions Clark's has to offer.
More details for Railroad Days will be coming soon.
--------------------------------
Sent them an email asking about the Lombard as well, thanks again for the tip!
I just got a reply from Clarks Trading Post, they said the Lombard will not be operating at RailRoad days this fall   :( , but I can bring the model up for photos with it and they do have someone there who can supply lots of information on it. Sounds like a fun road trip to see all the other locos running.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 01, 2018, 03:45:01 PM
Got the U-shaped straps bent out of flat stock (bent around a round bar, anealed couple of times along the way) and drilled for the cross pins. Cotters are installed in the center 3 pins, the outer ones will wait till they go on the yoke and the chain is attached. Think its ready for a splash of paint!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qgrv2pnjb/IMG_2089.jpg)

I think the next logical part is the yoke block that the gear is held by, to run the dipper in and out. Here is a picture from one of their catalogs - the detail shape of this block changed over the years, model to model, but the basic shape was the same. The plate on the top rides on top of the dipper booms, the middle section slid between the booms, and the bearings at the bottom held the shaft with the small gear for the rack on the dipper boom. The large wheels you see on the side of the booms from the crowd engine attach to the outer ends of that same shaft.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/d5397b7cn/Yoke_Block.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 01, 2018, 05:54:58 PM
Splash of paint and a little time baking, looks much better!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/lwaa1odtz/IMG_2090.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on March 01, 2018, 09:27:27 PM
Hi Chris,
Ok I’ll go with the expert on the pulley! I just thunked that with the chain only fitted to the grove that it may/could/would wear the pulley, especially if the pulley didn’t rotate for some reason, I realized that IF the pulley had been set up so the links could turn it but not transmitting any power, it would just “freewheel”
Now that last picture is cool!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner_decoy on March 01, 2018, 09:33:08 PM
Chris......I did go back some 20 pages prior to asking about these chain pulleys , however these later photographs really clarify  :ThumbsUp: & bely my questions :facepalm:

Certainly a substantial and robust design.......[for a highly loaded application in an aggressive environment  :killcomputer:]

Derek

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 01, 2018, 09:36:08 PM
Hi Chris,
Ok I’ll go with the expert on the pulley! I just thunked that with the chain only fitted to the grove that it may/could/would wear the pulley, especially if the pulley didn’t rotate for some reason, I realized that IF the pulley had been set up so the links could turn it but not transmitting any power, it would just “freewheel”
Now that last picture is cool!

Cheers Kerrin
Given the huge weights these things lifted, and the fact that the chain is not that smooth, I would be surprised if the chain didn't grip onto the sheave surface and help it spin.

One of the places on the real machine that was interesting to see wear was on the hoist clutch control lever, which is right next to the guide wheel for the slew chain - the wheel edge has worn the lever at least a third of the way through.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/f78bzj7mv/IMG_1331.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 01, 2018, 09:41:31 PM
Chris......I did go back some 20 pages prior to asking about these chain pulleys , however these later photographs really clarify  :ThumbsUp: & bely my questions :facepalm:

Certainly a substantial and robust design.......[for a highly loaded application in an aggressive environment  :killcomputer: ]

Derek
Itws amazing that the machine ran for so many decades of such rough service - there is definitely signs of repairs and field-made parts here and there!
Check out the wear marks on the front corner bolster of the main frame - all those diagonal marks deep into the steel are from the bucket scraping on it when they got in too close when digging to the side of the machine.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6q8to5kt3/IMG_1177.jpg)
It looks like a rubber bumper, but that is an inch thick piece of plate steel.
The left side track support has a new end on it, and some repair plates welded over the joint, it had a pretty rough life.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 02, 2018, 12:29:59 AM
It's really fascinating to see the 'real' pictures and the 'fake' pictures  ;D
Awesome project.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 02, 2018, 05:14:59 PM
It's really fascinating to see the 'real' pictures and the 'fake' pictures  ;D
Awesome project.
Is it Model or is it Memorex?  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 02, 2018, 05:24:16 PM
Started in on the yoke block, milled a chunk of brass to the overall dimensions, then notched in the sides to start forming the half-round protrusions on the ends.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5chnc82hj/IMG_2093.jpg)
Then drilled for the through-bolts
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gc2unvax3/IMG_2094.jpg)
and to do the half-rounds, used the old rod-through-the-holes-and-make-a-series-of-flat-cut trick. About 6 cuts per side did the job, end result is a pretty smooth arc. Two critical things on this operation, make sure the cutter is positioned to just skim the surface when the block is vertical, and make sure the rod is tight to the top of the vise every time the part is rotated between cuts. Here it is after two cuts.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/uiilj3e2f/IMG_2095.jpg)
Okay, three things - when the part gets farther over on its side after a few cuts, move the mill table over to make sure the cutter wont dig into the lip at the end of the arced area.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wn2yk609j/IMG_2096.jpg)
And after the passes on both sides of the arc:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7h20dbr9j/IMG_2098.jpg)
Repeated the process on the other end of the part:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fzbghod7r/IMG_2099.jpg)
So, now the post is shaped, still left a little long to allow for fine tuning the fit of the gear.
Next up is to make the top plate and the bearing surfaces. On the original, the plate is steel, and the bearing surfaces appear to be bronze or something like it. I may make the whole thing from one chunk of bronze, the bearing plates would be quite thin, hard to fasten to the outer plate....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: mklotz on March 02, 2018, 05:50:42 PM
It's really fascinating to see the 'real' pictures and the 'fake' pictures
Awesome project.
Is it Model or is it Memorex?

If you want to see some fantastic model trompe l'oeil, take a look at Michael Paul Smith's work with model cars and forced perspective...

https://petapixel.com/2013/10/14/life-like-miniature-scenes-shot-using-model-cars-forced-perspective-250-ps/

For more examples, his Flickr page is here...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/24796741@N05/
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 02, 2018, 06:05:50 PM
It's really fascinating to see the 'real' pictures and the 'fake' pictures
Awesome project.
Is it Model or is it Memorex?

If you want to see some fantastic model trompe l'oeil, take a look at Michael Paul Smith's work with model cars and forced perspective...

https://petapixel.com/2013/10/14/life-like-miniature-scenes-shot-using-model-cars-forced-perspective-250-ps/ (https://petapixel.com/2013/10/14/life-like-miniature-scenes-shot-using-model-cars-forced-perspective-250-ps/)

For more examples, his Flickr page is here...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/24796741@N05/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/24796741@N05/)
Those are amazing! 

Seems like there is a Twilight Zone episode there, he wakes up one day inside one of his shots and can't get out...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 03, 2018, 08:14:42 PM
FYI - going to be a break in the build for a bit, not sure how long. I am getting the final sub work done for the pool run tomorrow, then Monday I'm starting in on some work at the dentist that will keep me out of the shop for a while.  :(

So, probably not much in the way of updates this week.

Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 04, 2018, 07:22:06 PM
Been a bit of a scramble at the last day, but got the turtle sub all assembled, apparently working (will find out for real tonight at the pool), and here is a shot of the ballasting in the tub - matter of adding/trimming chunks of closed cell foam to the inside of the shell to get it to float level with 'decks', um, back, just out of the water. Then, at the pool, will either add a little more floatation or some wheel weights to fine tune its performance under power. The diving planes, err, fins, at the bow, I mean behind the neck, can pivot and act to aim the nose down, so the props can push it the rest of the way under. The props are gimbaled in both directions, so they act as steering as well as angling the stern, I mean butt, up and down.   :Lol:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/f4c1t5z3b/IMG_1756a.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 04, 2018, 11:12:53 PM
FYI - going to be a break in the build for a bit, not sure how long. I am getting the final sub work done for the pool run tomorrow...

That wouldn't happen if you'd been working on the Stanley. You wouldn't be able to tear yourself away.

re: Marv's post...I've seen some of that work. The ingenuity used to put models into dioramas or making them appear 'real' is amazing and really adds to the hobby.

Sort of like seeing a turtle in a tub...but not quite.  :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 05, 2018, 02:20:06 AM
FYI - going to be a break in the build for a bit, not sure how long. I am getting the final sub work done for the pool run tomorrow...

That wouldn't happen if you'd been working on the Stanley. You wouldn't be able to tear yourself away.

re: Marv's post...I've seen some of that work. The ingenuity used to put models into dioramas or making them appear 'real' is amazing and really adds to the hobby.

Sort of like seeing a turtle in a tub...but not quite.  :lolb:

Well, the turtle was a natural in the pool, swam very well! Got pics and videos, will put them up in the morning probably. Just a few minor tweaks needed, but for first run of a complex mechanism it went quite well, very happy about that.  :whoohoo:


Good thing, since tomorrow noon I go in to get a tooth removed and bridge installed, so will be out of the shop for a while, don't know how long, and the elves are bad at posting about their work. So see you all when that crap is all done!   :(

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jo on March 05, 2018, 07:32:18 AM

Well, the turtle was a natural in the pool, swam very well! Got pics and videos, will put them up in the morning probably. Just a few minor tweaks needed, but for first run of a complex mechanism it went quite well, very happy about that.  :whoohoo:


Good thing, since tomorrow noon I go in to get a tooth removed and bridge installed, so will be out of the shop for a while, don't know how long, and the elves are bad at posting about their work. So see you all when that crap is all done!   :(

Hang on...

 :pics:

Chris - Don't you go off enjoying yourself with your trip to the dentist until after you have posted the turtle pics and video   :slap:

Jo
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 05, 2018, 12:53:25 PM

Well, the turtle was a natural in the pool, swam very well! Got pics and videos, will put them up in the morning probably. Just a few minor tweaks needed, but for first run of a complex mechanism it went quite well, very happy about that.  :whoohoo:


Good thing, since tomorrow noon I go in to get a tooth removed and bridge installed, so will be out of the shop for a while, don't know how long, and the elves are bad at posting about their work. So see you all when that crap is all done!   :(

Hang on...

 :pics:

Chris - Don't you go off enjoying yourself with your trip to the dentist until after you have posted the turtle pics and video   :slap:

Jo
Enjoy. Dentist.    :shrug:

Dentist. Enjoy.    :shrug:

Sorry, those words go together as well as you enjoying your time at work!    :ShakeHead:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 05, 2018, 01:05:15 PM
Here are some pictures from last nights run of the submarine fleet at the pool.

Started out with the turtle swimming around by himself, all was well in the ocean...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gzq3winmf/IMG_1761.jpg)

Then, he was spotted by the flying sub, scouting out from the Seaview (remember the old tv series?)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7rxvfto9z/IMG_1770.jpg)

The crew of the flying sub freaked out about this giant monster turtle, and called in reinforcements from the world navies:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/48bxq0t9z/IMG_1772.jpg)

Fortunately, the turtle was able to make friends and they started to play with each other:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9wi8gx5c7/IMG_1777.jpg)

One big happy family...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/utegllb2v/IMG_1778.jpg)

I have some videos, will take some time to get them uploaded....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 05, 2018, 01:14:54 PM
Videos of the Sea Turtle submarine from last night:

Quick clip from underwater:
4KgJnCaLCck
Couple longer movies of first run in the pool:
EitDTpnCoi0
11F9gGyz6JA
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jo on March 05, 2018, 04:42:06 PM
Enjoy. Dentist.    :shrug:

Dentist. Enjoy.    :shrug:

Sorry, those words go together as well as you enjoying your time at work!    :ShakeHead:

Thanks for the pictures Chris  :mischief: Looks good  :ThumbsUp:

One has to enjoy our time at W**k while we still have it, it will not last forever  :pinkelephant:

Jo
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: b.lindsey on March 05, 2018, 05:30:22 PM
Really cool Chris. Thanks for the videos as well as the pictures. Now you can go and enjoy the dentist :)

Bill
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 05, 2018, 10:31:24 PM
Really cool Chris. Thanks for the videos as well as the pictures. Now you can go and enjoy the dentist :)

Bill
Thanks Bill, things actually went a lot better than I had feared, once he pumped in a few quarts of novacaine (or whatever they use these days - seemed to remove feeling but not take away the muscle control, so didn't drool all over everything like Jo at the foundry). Turned out he only had to remove the half of the tooth that had cracked off and was shifting, the other half was still anchored solidly so he left that, will build on it for the new bridge. The shots have worn off (the next part I feared) but there is very little pain.

So, unless things go bad in the next few days, should be able to spend time in the shop a whole lot sooner than I thought!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ClaytonFirth on March 05, 2018, 11:00:40 PM
The turtle is awesome Chris. Interesting perspective in the video with the hand on it's back, for some reason i thought that it was going to be a lot larger from the build photos.

C
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 05, 2018, 11:07:14 PM
The turtle is awesome Chris. Interesting perspective in the video with the hand on it's back, for some reason i thought that it was going to be a lot larger from the build photos.

C
The turtle is 24" long and 18" wide overall, not all that big, the camera angles can really exagerate things. Things went very well for its first time out - got worried at first when it didn't power up at the pool. Turned out the on/off switch on the speed control had a faulty lead (the only wire connection that I didnt make, it came that way from the factory) and the wires seperated inside the heat-shrink tubing over the tab on the switch. Once I found that, did a quick bit of wire stripping and twisting to force it on, and all went well from there.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on March 06, 2018, 08:07:29 AM
Hi Chris,
 Now that is pretty cool!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Mikem on March 06, 2018, 12:35:49 PM
Chris that is awesome !
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ShopShoe on March 06, 2018, 01:21:32 PM
Fantastic.  :ThumbsUp:
 
Now, you need a giant squid.  :Jester:

ShopShoe
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 06, 2018, 02:13:22 PM
Fantastic.  :ThumbsUp:
 
Now, you need a giant squid.  :Jester:

ShopShoe
Now that would be some interesting linkages!  :Lol:

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 06, 2018, 02:59:30 PM
Getting caught up on work from yesterday, I got started on the top plate on the plate which holds the slider portion of the dipper yoke block. Here is an image from their catalog of one, I think from a different model shovel since the details dont match:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/d5397b7cn/Yoke_Block.jpg)
While similar, here is what the top plate on this shovel looks like:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qx1l8royv/DSC_4768.jpg)
In both those pictures you can see there is a small bar in the center, held on a post with a cotter. That appears to be a retainer to keep the bolts from turning, not sure if they used that to adjust the tension on the dipper boom to keep the gear mesh proper while things wore - there is a bearing plate underneath where it rides on the top of the boom, makes sense that they would want a way to take up the slack as that wore.
EDIT: looking through the catalogs I have, found a sentance where Marion states they would put shim plates in to keep things in contact as they block and boom surfaces wore. They also call this either a yoke block or a saddle block - they used both terms in one sentence, must be a regional term.

I started with a piece of 1/4" thick stainless flat bar, trimmed to width/length, and started hogging in the large areas around the ribs on top with a large end mill.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/c13212ayf/IMG_2101.jpg)
Then came back and fined in the corners and thickness of the ribs with a smaller one:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3vl02wezr/IMG_2102.jpg)
Today I will cut the narrow rib space in the center, and start notching in the shapes on top of the ribs.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: mklotz on March 06, 2018, 03:10:43 PM
You should convince the researchers at Woods Hole that they need turtles like yours to surreptitiously track sea turtles.  Then sell them for $50K a copy;  institutions are always paying sucker prices for specialty equipment.  For an extra $10K mount a GoPro in the head so they can take pictures of the wildlife they annoy.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 06, 2018, 03:19:48 PM
You should convince the researchers at Woods Hole that they need turtles like yours to surreptitiously track sea turtles.  Then sell them for $50K a copy;  institutions are always paying sucker prices for specialty equipment.  For an extra $10K mount a GoPro in the head so they can take pictures of the wildlife they annoy.
I wish I could claim it as my idea - I got the idea for this sub from the series of shows on PBS (Nature - Spy In The Wild miniseries) where they did exactly that, made RC animals to put cameras in, so they could interact with wild animals with no humans around. They did a number of them, the turtle (which watched other turtles, whales, dolphins), a monkey, birds standing on the ground (to watch elephant herds), things like that. They put cameras in the eye sockets of the 'animals', very cool stuff.
Once I saw the show, I went "gotta build one of those!".
You can watch those episodes on Nature's website here:
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/spy-in-the-wild-about/14810/
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: b.lindsey on March 06, 2018, 03:26:50 PM
I have also seen them mount small video cameras to live animals for the same purpose...as I recall it was penguins so that they could see what they were doing under the antarctic ice in searching for food. Either way its an ingenious idea.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on March 06, 2018, 04:13:56 PM
Hi Chris,   saw this in the Engineer.....A contemporainious photo from 1890....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 06, 2018, 04:56:18 PM
I have also seen them mount small video cameras to live animals for the same purpose...as I recall it was penguins so that they could see what they were doing under the antarctic ice in searching for food. Either way its an ingenious idea.

Bill
They got some great footage that way. There was another Nature series, Animals With Cameras, on recently where they did that. They had a lot of fun getting the cameras on little harnesses on some of the animals. I think it was a chimp that pulled on it and demolished the rig in seconds.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 06, 2018, 04:57:31 PM
Hi Chris,   saw this in the Engineer.....A contemporainious photo from 1890....
Great photo! That was one of the ones that did not use a crowd engine, but just had the dipper boom hinged on the main boom. There were half a dozen variations on that theme over the years. Thanks!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 06, 2018, 05:01:20 PM
More on the top plate - milled the smaller center area out, and took the tops of the ribs down in the center, also notched for the retaining bar.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/48gzn39vb/IMG_2105.jpg)
Then tipped it 45 degrees to do the angles at the sides
(https://s5.postimg.cc/puw044g5j/IMG_2106.jpg)
and a shallower angle for the other ribs
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mo1gki3fb/IMG_2107.jpg)
and drilled the hole for the center post for the cotter, and the outside holes for the through bolts
(https://s5.postimg.cc/e5s0g59rb/IMG_2109.jpg)
and lastly took the bottom down to final thickness
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mba2ebsvb/IMG_2110.jpg)
Here it is set on the dipper boom where it will go:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5nikbu5tj/IMG_2112.jpg)
I think I will put it in the tumbler for a little while to even out the tool marks from the mill, then get started on the bearing plates.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 07, 2018, 02:26:05 PM
Next up was the bronze bearing plates, which ride on top of the dipper booms. I started by squaring up a length of bronze rod, and hacksawing it down the middle to split it into two plates. On the original, they are bolted onto the steel top plate, so I figured I'd give it a try to do the same thing. Since the scaled down plates are so thin, I did not want to depend on just a turn or two of the thread, so I drilled/tapped the holes 2-56, then silver soldered in a bolt in each hole, bolt head to the bottom. The bolt heads were then sawn off.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ke97fh1hz/IMG_2114.jpg)
At this point, the surface against the steel plate is the milled-flat outside of the original bar, the outer surface is the rough sawn side, that still needs to be taken down to final dimensions. So, I bolted the plates together:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3qhpcyjl3/IMG_2113.jpg)
and took several light cuts to smooth the bottom surface and take the bearing plates to final thickness:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6xc8wlbqv/IMG_2116.jpg)
Here it is set on the boom, you can see how the bronze plates are the same width as the tops of the booms.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/lgjdy0clj/IMG_2119.jpg)
And then I drilled and added the little post for the cotter pin to hold the retaining plate.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ltas467pz/IMG_2120.jpg)
Next step is to measure for geear mesh and trim the vertical bar to length, then add the bearings to the end. Got to be precise on that one, so it, um, measure once, cut twice, still too short.... No, thats not it... Hmmm...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 07, 2018, 08:13:06 PM
Some careful measurements with the gear and post, and trimmed the vertical post to what should be a good length to get a proper mesh on the gear, plus a slight extra length to allow for fine tuning (can trim a bit off the top of the post if the fit is too loose). Then, clamped on a block of scrap so I could drill the hole for the bronze bearing for the shaft:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7ekffdng7/IMG_2122.jpg)
The bearing cap is steel, so to get a matching hole in the steel blank I used another piece to drill with, so that both sides of the hole were drilled with the same metal to keep the drill from wandering out into a softer side. The second piece could be used as a spare cap if I botch the first one.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tdqu2kouv/IMG_2121.jpg)
Here are the parts so far:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/v5jsxhvd3/IMG_2123.jpg)
I then rounded the ends and top of the cap the same way that I did for the post the other day, post #792, using a rod in the hole as a height guide on the top of the mill vise, and made cuts at several angles to rough in the curve. Also drilled and turned a piece of bronze rod for the bearing. Here are all the parts for the assembly so far:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/iqx0x6bkn/IMG_2124.jpg)
Now, need to make up the through-bolts from some 1/8" round bar, threaded at both ends, and the nuts to hold it all together. Then I can check the fit on the gears, and trim or shim as needed for a good sliding fit on the booms. Good place to stop for the day!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 07, 2018, 10:46:07 PM
This afternoon I made up the two studs for the yoke, just some 1/8" rod threaded at each end. Also needed a set of heavy nuts for them, so I repeated the method I used for the nus on the booms, and threaded a set of 5-40 nuts onto a bolt, tightened them down to the head of the bolt, and screwed that into the end of a rod held in a 5C collet in the hex collet holder. Here is what I started with, full size hardware-store pattern nuts (quite huge for a model).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3wd0x8z8n/IMG_2125.jpg)
A few passes on each face, turn the collet one face in the vise, repeat 6 times, and I got a set of heavy nuts for the model, no drilling, threading time needed, only took a few minutes.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6dpaau4on/IMG_2126.jpg)
Then, time for a test of the gear mesh on the dipper handle:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6dpaauk47/IMG_2130.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/y11zoxxl3/IMG_2128.jpg)
Looks like I got the length of the post right on the first go, it moves nice and smooth, good contact all the way up and down the rack.
 :whoohoo:
So, time for a bit of paint on these new parts (none on the bronze plates or the sides of the vert post), and the dipper handle assembly is complete!
 :cartwheel:

Next steps? Have not decided whether to make the gears that will go to the crowd engine (one large wheel that goes on the outside of this shaft, one small one that goes on the crankshaft of the engine), or start on the main boom parts.

Time for a cookie and a relaxed ponder... (we need a emoji of sitting in a rocker eating a cookie)
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 08, 2018, 02:07:27 AM
......

Next steps? Have not decided whether to make the gears that will go to the crowd engine (one large wheel that goes on the outside of this shaft, one small one that goes on the crankshaft of the engine), or start on the main boom parts.

.....
Decided to go with making the gears on the shipper shaft (thats what they call the shaft on the parts I just made)...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: sco on March 08, 2018, 06:02:23 AM
Really slick work turning out these tricky parts Chris!  Still following this build and enjoying the aquatic distractions too,

Simon.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 08, 2018, 02:27:00 PM
......

Next steps? Have not decided whether to make the gears that will go to the crowd engine (one large wheel that goes on the outside of this shaft, one small one that goes on the crankshaft of the engine), or start on the main boom parts.

.....
Decided to go with making the gears on the shipper shaft (thats what they call the shaft on the parts I just made)...
Correction - turns out I don't have any stock large enough for those gears (they are 3.5" diameter, .25" thick), so I'll have to order some. So, in the meantime, guess I'll start shaping down the sides for the main booms.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 08, 2018, 06:55:23 PM
A coat of paint on the shipper yoke assembly,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/x9mamzf13/IMG_2132.jpg)
Then I found some wider stock for the gears (went through the plans and listed the other gears in the main gear trains as well, ordered enough for those too) from a supplier with short lengths of 'drop' offcuts at a good price. While waiting for those to arrive I got started prepping the stock for the shells of the main booms. Those are cut from some lengths of thin 2" wide steel bars, and used the same holding block that I used for the dipper booms to square up one end for the base, and went down one side to remove the half-round edge from the stock.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6bsdl8mo7/IMG_2131.jpg)
Due to the length of the bars, just under 21", it took three passes per bar to do the whole length since the Sherline has a travel of about 8-1/2" max.
Next is to take the bars down to final width (1.8125") by taking the rest off the second side of each bar. I've made up a card stock template for the booms, which are parallel sided for half the length, then they curve in to the halh-round at the top end where the chain sheaves are. I'll use the template to mark the bars for rough-sawing the shape in, to save milling time.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on March 08, 2018, 09:06:49 PM
I’m still  :popcorn: , DrinkPint: , and following along in amazement. Just one question: I notice that you are using a lot of brass and then painting it. I can imagine the brass would be a easier “carved” material with the Sherlines; but, wouldn’t a good ali work and be more cost effective? Or is a case of “I got it and I’m gonna use it?”  :lolb:  I also love the turtle. I couldn’t help but laugh this morning when one my customers that is a cattle farmer offered a $2 a shell bounty for the turtles taking over his two acre livestock pond. Apparently, they cause damage to the substrate of the clay that forms most of the ponds in this area and with enough of the little fellers, they can “sink” a pond  :shrug:. Just had a stupidly good German dark chocolate bread cookie and cream with a snort of ol’ Kentucky’ s finest  and a double espresso. Don’t tell the elves  :lolb:

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 08, 2018, 09:37:11 PM
I’m still  :popcorn: , DrinkPint: , and following along in amazement. Just one question: I notice that you are using a lot of brass and then painting it. I can imagine the brass would be a easier “carved” material with the Sherlines; but, wouldn’t a good ali work and be more cost effective? Or is a case of “I got it and I’m gonna use it?”  :lolb:  I also love the turtle. I couldn’t help but laugh this morning when one my customers that is a cattle farmer offered a $2 a shell bounty for the turtles taking over his two acre livestock pond. Apparently, they cause damage to the substrate of the clay that forms most of the ponds in this area and with enough of the little fellers, they can “sink” a pond  :shrug: . Just had a stupidly good German dark chocolate bread cookie and cream with a snort of ol’ Kentucky’ s finest  and a double espresso. Don’t tell the elves  :lolb:

Cletus
Hi Cletus,  pass the chocolate!!


I much prefer brass to aluminum, cuts so much nicer and doesn't cling to the cutter like ali does. Just a personal preference, feel its worth the cost to enjoy working with it. Lots of sizes available, and I can find larger sizes cheap as drops fairly often.


Funny about the turtles, never knew they were tunnelers! I'd rather have them than those stupid groundhogs, much easier to catch up to!  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dan Rowe on March 08, 2018, 10:12:40 PM
Chris, I reread the first 6 pages of his thread and could not find the scale of this build, what scale did you choose?

I like working with steel best but I have both big and small machines to make chips with.

Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 08, 2018, 10:21:25 PM
Chris, I reread the first 6 pages of his thread and could not find the scale of this build, what scale did you choose?

I like working with steel best but I have both big and small machines to make chips with.

Dan
This one is 3/4":1', same as my Shay. Large enough to make the engines work, small enough that I can still meet move the model, just!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 09, 2018, 06:52:34 PM
Continuing on with the main boom sides - took the second side to final width on each piece,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/th38q83hj/IMG_2135.jpg)
then angled the part to rough in the curved taper on the end on one side
(https://s5.postimg.cc/z59jh4n9j/IMG_2137.jpg)
and then the other
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bea5z0fcn/IMG_2138.jpg)
The four sides (two booms, with the dipper handle between them) were then stacked together and held with clamps, and taken to the belt/disc sander to get a fair curve along the tapered area. Doing them all together meant I knew all 4 would come out the same shape.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/87fmfeac7/IMG_2140.jpg)
While they are still clamped up together, I can drill some reference holes so I can bolt them together and handle them seperately as needed for future steps. The reference holes will be at the pivot for the tip sheave, and slong the length where other bolts will be in the finished pieces.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 10, 2018, 11:12:55 PM
Was out most of today, but this afternoon got some time to work on the main booms. The first step, while it was all still clamped together from shaping the edges, was to drill the outer end for the chain sheave pivot rod.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/sj5pqbqcn/IMG_2141.jpg)
Made up a little plug, same diamter as the hole, slightly shorter than the distance through the bars, with a clearance hole for a 4-40 bolt and bolted on some with some washers to span to the bars. That will hold the end tight without letting anything shift during all the drilling operations to come - last thing I want is for the bars to move and some of the holes to no longer line up!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/b5vfbgflz/IMG_2142.jpg)
Then drilled the row of holes at the bottom end of the booms
(https://s5.postimg.cc/uayol8hfb/IMG_2143.jpg)
and ran in a set of 2-56 nuts and bolts to clamp that end. Now, both ends are bolted up tight, and cannot shift. All I need to do now is drill a gazillion holes along the length for all the cross bolts - will clamp the bars together as i go so they cannot lift and leave gaps as the drill goes through each plate.
Here I have spot drilled for the first batch of holes, ready to do the drilling for real. There is a hole every 1/2" down the edges, and an alternating set of holes in the middle - this matches the pattern on the real thing.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bimthn5lj/IMG_2144.jpg)
I also put in an order for another batch of 2-56 scale pattern nuts from Fastener Express - after counting how many are needed, decided it was worth the cost rather than make that many myself (yes, I am crazy, but not THAT nuts!  :insane: ). I have some of thier scale pattern nuts, they look correct for this model, so will go with them. There are 140-some cross bolts, and 50 or so vertical bolts in each of the two booms, a lot of the cross bolts go all the way through both, except for the ones in the gap where the dipper boom goes. Those are riveted flush on the inside edge and bolted on the outside edge. I have several long lengths of 2-56 threaded rod that I got from McMaster to use as the studs.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on March 11, 2018, 12:17:51 AM
All that screwing around is going to drive you nuts...

 ;D

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 11, 2018, 12:31:54 AM
All that screwing around is going to drive you nuts...

 ;D

Pete
Thats no drive, thats a short putt!   :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 11, 2018, 06:17:57 PM
This has been a boring day so far - boring (well, drilling) lots and lots of holes in the main boom side panels. As with shaping them, they were done in three batches since the mill table can't move far enough to do it in one go. So, first batch:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fbqjlrpsn/IMG_2145.jpg)
second batch:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/88io65s2v/IMG_2146.jpg)
Third batch:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xrb0j6jcn/IMG_2148.jpg)
Few swipes with a file to debur the bottom plate where the drill came through, and the four plates are ready to go:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ux7v5qow7/IMG_2149.jpg)
Next up will be the wood core pieces for the booms, just like on the dipper booms they are steel plates on all four sides, wrapping a white oak core piece which Marion did to absorb the shock loads on the booms, and they said it also kept the booms from taking a set twist from side loads.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 11, 2018, 07:55:43 PM
And got some well-seasoned white oak out of the scrap pile in the woodshop, cut it to 1/4" thick on the table saw, and cut the outline on the bandsaw...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6z7tnvenr/IMG_2150.jpg)
Then clamped one of the side plates to each wood core, and used the holes in the side plate as a drill guide for drilling matching holes in the wood parts. Since the plates act as a guide for the drill, I was able to just use the drill press to zip through the rows of holes, hand holding the parts onto a wood block in the drill press vice to prevent excessive tearout in the back of the wood. This went much quicker than drilling the holes in the metal!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/hyt0zgxd3/IMG_2152.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 12, 2018, 05:33:26 PM
With the core and side plates done, time to move onto the top/bottom plates on the main booms. The top plate is a simple piece of 3/8" wide flat bar, starting at the base, bent around the top end, and ending a few inches into the bottom, where a second wider section starts.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dvooety47/IMG_2153.jpg)
For the bottom plate, started with some 7/8" wide flat steel and took it to 3/4" wide (did not have any 3/4" wide to start with), and narrowed the bottom end to 3/8".
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kywjugb9j/IMG_2154.jpg)
Switched the plates to the mill vise, and cut the angled sections at either end:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4b51ryo7r/IMG_2156.jpg)
Here are the strips set in place, ready for drilling the through bolts, at the front end:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/km55oa8fb/IMG_2157.jpg)
and the back end:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8x160bp6f/IMG_2158.jpg)
The wider section is only on the outside of each boom, there to stiffen the boom to sideways loads, and also provides a step for working on it. Most of the shovels came with a ladder that ran along the bottom just above this plate to provide access up the boom. The LeRoy shovel is missing this ladder, not sure when it was removed - may have been when they abandoned it, may have been earlier, no way to tell. Next time I get out there I am going to take a closer look and see if I can figure out how it was attached to the boom, cannot tell from my photos.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Gas_mantle on March 12, 2018, 05:39:43 PM
Incredible work Chris, in some photos it's hard to tell its not the full sized machine  :)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on March 12, 2018, 08:32:22 PM
Wow! Damn Dog you and those Elves are just chewing up the metal and spitting it out. Do they ever sleep got to be some powerful cookies you feeding them.... :lolb:

 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 12, 2018, 09:17:03 PM
Wow! Damn Dog you and those Elves are just chewing up the metal and spitting it out. Do they ever sleep got to be some powerful cookies you feeding them.... :lolb:

 :cheers:
Don
Dark Chocolate Caffiene Powdered Sugar Filled High Octane Cookies!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on March 12, 2018, 09:36:55 PM
I'm beginning to think it's the elves doing all the work while Chris is playing with his submarines  :LittleDevil:

Amazing work, whoever is doing it  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 12, 2018, 09:43:19 PM
I'm beginning to think it's the elves doing all the work while Chris is playing with his submarines  :LittleDevil:

Amazing work, whoever is doing it  :cheers:
Dang - they figured it out!

Sigh.

I'll pass the compliments along to the elves...

 :Lol:

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 13, 2018, 06:37:06 PM
Been drilling lots of holes, got the vertical ones done through the top/bottom plates, then used those as a guide for drilling the wood cores. Given the deptch of the booms, the drill would barely make it through, and tended to wander a little in the wood, so I drilled from both top and bottom to meet the holes up in the middle.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/z3y81jgw7/IMG_2159.jpg)
Still need to drill the last few holes at the narrow end, then will make the two spacer blocks that sit between the two booms and space them out to take the dipper boom. Then, can start cutting and installing all those long bolts to hold it all together! Hopefully I remember to first do the short ones in the space where the dipper boom goes - they are riveted over flush on the inside edges so they don't scrape on the dipper boom.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 14, 2018, 05:30:38 PM
Bit more done on the booms, got all the vertical holes drilled, some of the studs are in, lots more to go...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/jhc0lhc2f/IMG_2161.jpg)
After all are in, I'll use the sander to shorten up the occasional long one - easier to cut a batch to one length and trim than to cut each one to length as the booms taper in...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ramon on March 14, 2018, 06:22:16 PM
That's some awesome metal work from such a small mill Chris. Love your approach all round but tackling these booms as you have -
 well that's just bloody fantastic in my book :praise2: Your constant output is nothing short of impressive to say the least  :ThumbsUp:

Just goes to prove what can be done if you put your mind to it  - very inspirational indeed  :cheers:

Tug

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: sco on March 14, 2018, 09:21:06 PM
That boom is mighty impressive, focus though - don't want any whoopsies now!

Simon.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 14, 2018, 09:38:27 PM
Thanks guys! Very happy with it so far, just small bolt holes to drill in them from here, for the plates that hold things like chain sheaves and such. About ready to make the center spacer blocks.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: wagnmkr on March 14, 2018, 09:50:15 PM
Chris ... I have no words for you ingenuity ... those "over there" might say they are "Gobsmacked", and it would fit.

Tom
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 14, 2018, 09:59:20 PM
Chris ... I have no words for you ingenuity ... those "over there" might say they are "Gobsmacked", and it would fit.

Tom
I didn't know making parts larger than your mill was unusual, locomotive factories do it all the time!  :Lol:


Seriously, thanks much, just having lots of fun making parts in a small shop!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 14, 2018, 10:24:37 PM
Bit more done on the booms, got all the vertical holes drilled, some of the studs are in, lots more to go...

As in..."darn, this might be a full day job instead of an hour or so".  ;D

At your pace...

You live by a different clock.

Or in a different universe.

I'm thinking the latter. In my universe, it sometimes takes a half a day just to wake up.
Perhaps I should change my choice of coffee.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 14, 2018, 10:40:51 PM
Bit more done on the booms, got all the vertical holes drilled, some of the studs are in, lots more to go...

As in..."darn, this might be a full day job instead of an hour or so".  ;D

At your pace...

You live by a different clock.

Or in a different universe.

I'm thinking the latter. In my universe, it sometimes takes a half a day just to wake up.
Perhaps I should change my choice of coffee.
Hey Zee!

As in, gotta wait for the delivery this afternoon (just arrived) of more threaded rod for the studs, should be another hour (my universe) or week (your alternate one - or am I in the alternate one, lost track, so many wormholes....). Though the hour will start tomorrow, off to archery league in a few minutes.

I think I drifted into this slow-time universe back when I had too many back-to-back-back meetings when I was an engineer - sure you know how time goes backwards in long meetings!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 14, 2018, 11:39:18 PM
Bit more done on the booms, got all the vertical holes drilled, some of the studs are in, lots more to go...

As in..."darn, this might be a full day job instead of an hour or so".  ;D

At your pace...

You live by a different clock.

Or in a different universe.

I'm thinking the latter. In my universe, it sometimes takes a half a day just to wake up.
Perhaps I should change my choice of coffee.
Hey Zee!

As in, gotta wait for the delivery this afternoon (just arrived) of more threaded rod for the studs, should be another hour (my universe) or week (your alternate one - or am I in the alternate one, lost track, so many wormholes....). Though the hour will start tomorrow, off to archery league in a few minutes.

I think I drifted into this slow-time universe back when I had too many back-to-back-back meetings when I was an engineer - sure you know how time goes backwards in long meetings!

 :cheers:

As I said.  :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 15, 2018, 12:50:05 AM
Bit more done on the booms, got all the vertical holes drilled, some of the studs are in, lots more to go...

As in..."darn, this might be a full day job instead of an hour or so".  ;D

At your pace...

You live by a different clock.

Or in a different universe.

I'm thinking the latter. In my universe, it sometimes takes a half a day just to wake up.
Perhaps I should change my choice of coffee.
Hey Zee!

As in, gotta wait for the delivery this afternoon (just arrived) of more threaded rod for the studs, should be another hour (my universe) or week (your alternate one - or am I in the alternate one, lost track, so many wormholes....). Though the hour will start tomorrow, off to archery league in a few minutes.

I think I drifted into this slow-time universe back when I had too many back-to-back-back meetings when I was an engineer - sure you know how time goes backwards in long meetings!

 :cheers:

As I said.  :lolb:


Huh. That was three days ago, why the delay?


Oohhh... Two hours in your universe. Explains a lot!


 :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 15, 2018, 04:42:04 PM
This morning I got the rest of the vertical bolts cut (abrasive cutoff wheel in the small miter saw) and installed, and also the spacer blocks cut out of some white oak left over from the last sailboat project. The shapes may look odd, but the angles are there to allow the dipper boom to swing  in the middle gap, and for the chains to clear at the narrow end.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/u8smr74pj/IMG_2169.jpg)
Next step is to cut a notch in the lower side of the large block for the ends of the turntable chains, and then start drilling holes through the oak for the horizontal through bolts. Oh, and also need to trim the excess off the vertical bolts at the narrow end of the booms.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on March 15, 2018, 06:29:16 PM
Chris, work is progressing and looking great as always. Did you notice how much those two pieces looked just like a chainsaw bar?

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 15, 2018, 06:31:11 PM
Chris, work is progressing and looking great as always. Did you notice how much those two pieces looked just like a chainsaw bar?

Cletus
Yes I did - it feels like one too if it slips in the hand!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 15, 2018, 08:13:23 PM
This afternoon clamped the larger block between the booms, and drilled the through-holes for the horizontal bolts. Did several holes, replaced the clamps with some threaded rod, then did the rest of the holes.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wul6bmv2f/IMG_2170.jpg)
Then likewise with the smaller spacer block:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/hymn41rdj/IMG_2171.jpg)
Parts so far:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/zbwxiwuef/IMG_2173.jpg)
Now, time to cut a batch of long studs to go through the blocks, and a set of short ones to go through the booms between the blocks. The ones in the way of the dipper boom opening will be peaned over on the inside,nuts on the outside. The ones at the narrow end of the booms will just be bolted inside and out, the chain sheaves are spaced so they won't hit them. Once the short bolts are all in, I can bolt up the whole assembly.
There are a number of other holes for mounting the engines, chain sheaves, other bits that can be drilled after the assembly is done, will drill them as the parts are made to ensure proper fits. Some of the parts go on these through bolts, some have new holes.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on March 15, 2018, 09:21:48 PM
Dam that’s looking mighty fine Chris!

Good thing the extra corn fields were cut before we got the high winds a couple of weeks back! :popcorn:

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 16, 2018, 01:13:49 AM
Dam that’s looking mighty fine Chris!

Good thing the extra corn fields were cut before we got the high winds a couple of weeks back! :popcorn:

Cheers Kerrin
Knew I shoulda bought stock in that popcorn ranch!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gbritnell on March 16, 2018, 11:09:12 AM
Truly outstanding work Chris!
gbritnell
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on March 16, 2018, 05:37:41 PM
Bit more done on the booms, got all the vertical holes drilled, some of the studs are in, lots more to go...

As in..."darn, this might be a full day job instead of an hour or so".  ;D

At your pace...

You live by a different clock.

Or in a different universe.

I'm thinking the latter. In my universe, it sometimes takes a half a day just to wake up.
Perhaps I should change my choice of coffee.
Zee,
Have you considered it may not be the coffee, but what you put in it.
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 16, 2018, 08:02:31 PM
Bit more done on the booms, got all the vertical holes drilled, some of the studs are in, lots more to go...

As in..."darn, this might be a full day job instead of an hour or so".  ;D

At your pace...

You live by a different clock.

Or in a different universe.

I'm thinking the latter. In my universe, it sometimes takes a half a day just to wake up.
Perhaps I should change my choice of coffee.
Zee,
Have you considered it may not be the coffee, but what you put in it.
Gerald. thanks


Well, it's niether, since I don't drink coffee! Keep saying, dark chocolate mint chip cookies!! They bend time.   :Lol:


This afternoon I've been working on the cross bolts, one more session and they will be done...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 16, 2018, 09:20:00 PM
Truly outstanding work Chris!
gbritnell
Thanks George!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 16, 2018, 09:37:00 PM
Just finished getting the last of the nuts on the studs on the main boom - sure are a lot of the little things!

I did some experiments, and changed my mind on how to do the inside ends of the studs where the dipper handle goes through. Rather than peening over the ends of the studs there, it worked out much faster and better to counterdrill halfway through the inside plates, using a drill just larger than the outside diameter of the heads of some 2-56 socket head screws.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/k8733jtav/IMG_2174.jpg)
Then, ran in the socket heads and tightened the nuts on the outside, and used the belt sander to grind off the tops of the socket heads and take them smooth to the inside faces of the booms. In this next photo, the center bolts are all in and smoothed out on the inside, and the short bolts are ready to install at the narrow end of the boom, up near the tips where the chains cross through. Those do not need to be flush mounted, since the chains will be inboard of the booms.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bd68t1c87/IMG_2175.jpg)
Then, it was just a matter of putting a nut on one end of each cross stud, pushing them through the holes, and putting on a nut on the other ends. Some of the holes did not line up that well in the center of the wood block, so ran the drill bit through those again to smooth out the inside of the hole, and got them all in. Once all were in, went back and tightened them up, adjusting till the exposed threads were about even on all of them.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bpxmz8pd3/IMG_2179.jpg)
The last two columns of cross bolts at the base ends of the booms are left off for now - they will hold the bottom caps in place. The wood cores stop 0.800" back from the ends to leave room for the plug ends of the caps, which will have a curved section on the ends that fit into the socket on the turntable. The boom sits in the socket, and is held at the base with some turnbuckles, and at the top with some long cables that go back to the A-frame on the turntable - it is all designed so they can dismantle it in the field and put the booms on a flatbed rail car for transport to a new site. In this next photo you can see the holes left in the base of the main booms.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dui00bbk7/IMG_2180.jpg)
The gap in the wood core will be covered with a thick steel plate, that has slots in it for the ends of the chains that go around the turntable and attach to large eyebolts through the wood core - these eyebolts are used to tension the slewing chains (the chain starts at the base of the boom, goes around one side of the turntable, back to the drum at the slew engine in the cab, back forward around the other side of the turntable, and into the other side of this slot where it is pulled tight).
With this much together, it was not long before the shop elves made me hold up the dipper assembly and the main boom so they could take a picture of it:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6eiqeivkn/IMG_2181.jpg)
Now THAT deserves a cookie!   :cartwheel:

Next parts will be the base caps, then probably the bearing blocks for the shipper shaft, which is the axle that the gears ride on to connect the two booms. Still lots of parts to make on the main boom - chain sheaves (4), bases for the two sheaves on the top of the main boom, the large gears on either side that drive the dipper in and out, assorted brackets and steps, controls for the crowd engine... All that before the turntable can be started. I will probably finish the turntable before starting the crowd engine (which is nearly identical to the slew engine, both will be made together).

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on March 17, 2018, 12:04:07 AM
Looking good Chris!
All that cookie munching & sleep deprivation is paying off!

 :popcorn: :popcorn:

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dave Otto on March 17, 2018, 12:15:54 AM
Impressive work Chris!


Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steam Haulage on March 17, 2018, 09:18:53 AM
Hi Chris,

As others have said some really good work, and at such a pace. The following may be of interest.

Yesterday I received the Spring issue of Equipment Echoes, (the journal of the Historical Construction Equipment Associaton (HCEA) based in Ohio, you probably know it already)

In it there is an interesting item on the Marion Model 91 shovel with a picture from the HCEA archives showing the machine at work. Apparently it was one of the machines originally used for the Panama Canal construction.

Last issue there was an article on the Marion Company itself.

Keep the elves happy
Jerry :happyreader:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 17, 2018, 12:21:16 PM
Hi Chris,

As others have said some really good work, and at such a pace. The following may be of interest.

Yesterday I received the Spring issue of Equipment Echoes, (the journal of the Historical Construction Equipment Associaton (HCEA) based in Ohio, you probably know it already)

In it there is an interesting item on the Marion Model 91 shovel with a picture from the HCEA archives showing the machine at work. Apparently it was one of the machines originally used for the Panama Canal construction.

Last issue there was an article on the Marion Company itself.

Keep the elves happy
Jerry :happyreader:
I have heard of the hcea, but don't subscribe, have to go look that up. Thanks!

There were a number of model 91s used in Panama, stories at the quarry here claim this one was used there and brought back, but no documentation has been found to back that up, might be speculation, might be true, we don't know.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 18, 2018, 12:02:52 AM
Got started on the main boom base caps today - laid out where the centerpoints of the arcs were on a pair of brass blocks, drilled those points, plus a third one, for bolts to hold it to a aluminum block on the rotary table - one of the bolt holes is on the center of rotation on the aluminumm piece, so it can be used as a pivot. Then made a template for the block shapes, and traced that out on both sides of the brass, and started milling out the recesses (these caps were huge castings in the original engine, with large recesses to reduce the amount of steel needed).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/valtd88wn/IMG_2185.jpg)
Once the inner shapes were milled in, the arc at the lower end was done:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kns07t8h3/IMG_2188.jpg)
then the part was moved so the other bolt was on the center of the rotary table, and the outside arc going to the edge was cut. This photo shows the reason for the third bolt, to keep the part from spinning when the corner was milled off:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/htouudlqf/IMG_2189.jpg)
With both parts milled to shape, here we are so far, with the parts set next to the ends of the booms:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/m2tkwjh9z/IMG_2190.jpg)
Last step to milling them is to narrow the square ends to form tenons that fit into the ends of the booms. Once that is done, the bolt holes can be drilled in and the caps bolted in place.
To give a better idea of where all this is going, here is a picture from the 3D model of the assembly:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/nvwhkh4x3/Main_Boom_Base.jpg)
In this picture, I omitted the turntable plate and the swing chain, to show the base of the main boom.  The curved part of the base cap rests in the curved saddle on the turntable base, and the boom is held in with the turnbuckles above it and cables up at the top. The hole in the center of the caps is not used to hold the boom in place here, it is used to lift the boom off the turntable to place it on railroad flatcars for transport (its WAY too tall to fit under bridges when on the shovel).
The lever/handle you can see above the boom, just below the chain sheave, is the throttle/reverse lever for the crowd engine up on the main boom.  The large I-beams below the base cap are the ends of the main frame of the machine. The round pipe in the back of the saddle that the base caps are in is the pivot bearing for the turntable.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 18, 2018, 01:54:15 PM
And finished up the base caps this morning....

Milled the tenon into the blank ends, to fit the openings in the bottoms of the booms,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/lkl3ucrhj/IMG_2191.jpg)
Test fit, all looks good...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mmvacwxg7/IMG_2192.jpg)
so drilled the cross bolt holes through the tenons (the holes were already there in the booms and the core block)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/u2ujypdfr/IMG_2193.jpg)
and drilled/tapped the holes for the top/bottom studs. These just go 1/4" in, to hold a short stud, and are threaded into the cap 'casting'.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/oeo97toiv/IMG_2194.jpg)
Installed the studs and nuts, that finishes the caps.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xmghoi8fr/IMG_2195.jpg)
Next up is to make the rectangular plate that goes from the bottom ends of the booms up along the bottom edge, to brace the booms and also give access to the ends of the slew chains. This is the plate with the 4 holes in it in the rendering in the previous post.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on March 18, 2018, 02:16:49 PM
Those caps are great!  Very nice looking boom for sure, Chris, can't wait to see it all together. But I'm sure it won't be too long with you're alternate timeline  :Lol:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: fumopuc on March 18, 2018, 05:46:08 PM
Hi Chris, again a big pleasure to follow your progress.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: sco on March 18, 2018, 06:07:29 PM
You would think that the socket that those caps fit into would get showered with grit and every time the boom was raised or lowered it would wear badly?

Simon.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 18, 2018, 06:27:07 PM
You would think that the socket that those caps fit into would get showered with grit and every time the boom was raised or lowered it would wear badly?

Simon.
That socket is at the base of the main boom, which is at a fixed 45 degree angle, so no wear. It only tilts when they would dismantle the booms for transpirt on a flatbed rail car. The socket is on the turntable that swings left and right. The dipper boom is the one that pivots up and down with every scoop, and that joint is open to let debris fall through.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: sco on March 18, 2018, 06:30:38 PM
You would think that the socket that those caps fit into would get showered with grit and every time the boom was raised or lowered it would wear badly?

Simon.
That socket is at the base of the main boom, which is at a fixed 45 degree angle, so no wear. It only tilts when they would dismantle the booms for transpirt on a flatbed rail car. The socket is on the turntable that swings left and right. The dipper boom is the one that pivots up and down with every scoop, and that joint is open to let debris fall through.

Understood Chris - thanks for the explanation.

Simon.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 18, 2018, 10:30:22 PM
You would think that the socket that those caps fit into would get showered with grit and every time the boom was raised or lowered it would wear badly?

Simon.
That socket is at the base of the main boom, which is at a fixed 45 degree angle, so no wear. It only tilts when they would dismantle the booms for transpirt on a flatbed rail car. The socket is on the turntable that swings left and right. The dipper boom is the one that pivots up and down with every scoop, and that joint is open to let debris fall through.

Understood Chris - thanks for the explanation.

Simon.
No problem - this is a huge machine, many many parts - I have to refer back to the photos constantly myself on details.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 18, 2018, 10:31:03 PM
Those caps are great!  Very nice looking boom for sure, Chris, can't wait to see it all together. But I'm sure it won't be too long with you're alternate timeline  :Lol:
Kim
Yeah, fine for you, I have to take the long way around!   :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 19, 2018, 05:02:54 PM
The plate at the bottom of the boom is made and installed, finishes off the bottom section.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3xr6vqgdz/IMG_2201.jpg)
Now on to the other small bits on the boom. Or maybe the chain sheaves, haven't decided...  :thinking:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 19, 2018, 05:37:08 PM
Looking at the stock supply, and the size of the four chain sheaves (2" max OD), looks like they are going to be made from the chunk of 2-1/4" diameter 12L14 steel bar that is sitting on the shelf - was the left over from making the outer tires on the Shay locomotive. It's long enough to get all 4 parts out, including room to saw them apart and clean up the faces again....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 19, 2018, 07:18:59 PM
Got a start roughing out the chain sheaves - first two are thicker, they will be the ones at the end of the main boom, where the chain fall goes down to the dipper bucket, they have an extra lip on the sides that the two top guide sheaves do not.
Centered up the chunk of 12L14 round bar, and turned the end down to 2" diameter - the bar is too large to fit over the cross slide on the Sherline, so I'm cutting one sheave blank at a time (the step on the chuck jaws is slightly less than the distance to the center slot, so it will be easy to align the blanks tight against the chuck later).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/crmoqivaf/IMG_2202.jpg)
After turning the diameter, used a hacksaw to start a slot against the shoulder, then took the bar up to the big bench vise and finished the cut with a metal cutting blade in the recip saw, then rechucked the bar. Parting it in the lathe is beyond the reach and power of the Sherline.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/u4wz5i8mv/IMG_2203.jpg)
Here is the blank, showing where it will go on the end of the boom when it is finished. There will be two sheaves side by side there, to give the mechaincal advantage on the chain fall (chain goes up boom, down around pulley on bucket, back up and down again to end at the top of the pully on the bucket).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rnl7y4eev/IMG_2204.jpg)
One blank down, three more to go...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on March 19, 2018, 10:42:04 PM
This build is WAY COOL Chris.   :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 19, 2018, 11:15:12 PM
This build is WAY COOL Chris.   :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:


Thanks Craig, nice to have you along for the ride into the quarry!


This afternoon I've got the other 3 blanks cut to diameter, amd have started trimming tuem to thickness. So far look like some industrial strength hockey pucks.


Also I've been haunting ebay and have scored some more steam shovel and dredge catalogs from the early 1900's, amazing how much detail they include, bragging about the features and technology in their products. Same as modern car brochures, but these are 100+ pages each. I'm gathering notes from them, from patents, etc for the history of Marion and this shovel for another article series and/or book. About ready to start outlining the history and technology in the shovels, lots to cover.
In another month will be giving a presentation as part of the launch they are doing at the historical society for the fundraising for restoration of the shovel, hopefully work can start this spring. It will be a long but interesting journey!

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: J.L. on March 20, 2018, 03:02:29 PM
Chris, every time I drop in to have a peek at your build, I have to pick my jaw up off the floor!

It must be so safisfying to be building something that has such meaning for you when you can actually see the real thing and research its history.

Truely a labour of love.

What a project!

Cheers...John
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 20, 2018, 03:42:49 PM
Chris, every time I drop in to have a peek at your build, I have to pick my jaw up off the floor!

It must be so safisfying to be building something that has such meaning for you when you can actually see the real thing and research its history.

Truely a labour of love.

What a project!

Cheers...John
Thanks very much John! It is quite different to have the work on both the real machine and the model, a very interesting journey.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 20, 2018, 04:04:07 PM
Got the four blanks trimmed to thickness this morning, then drilled a starter hole in each and bored the centers out for the axles. The two at the end of the boom get a 3/4" axle, the two that are guides on top of the boom get 1/2" axles - each was bored a few thou under size so I can take a skim cut on the bar stock for the axles and get a tight fit.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7ek27knxj/IMG_2206.jpg)
Then the recess was cut in each side, to form the lip at the outside edge.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/jgfg1q4vr/IMG_2207.jpg)
All four were taken to that stage - you can see two are thicker, and have a larger axle hole.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/npk63wfuv/IMG_2208.jpg)
Next step is to cut the slot for the vertical links of the chain into the center of each wheel.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gz3ouh0ev/IMG_2209.jpg)
Still need to cut the slots in the other three, then do some more trimming on the inside of the wheels.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on March 20, 2018, 07:12:21 PM
Chris:

I know that if I looked back thru the 59 pages of this thread that I could find the answer myself, but I'm not that ambitious - so I'll just ask.  Regarding the chain sheaves, the vertical chain links will ride in the slot that you've cut in the sheave.  Will the horizontal chain links ride in pockets, or will they just wrap around the outside of the sheave?

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 20, 2018, 07:43:56 PM
Chris:

I know that if I looked back thru the 59 pages of this thread that I could find the answer myself, but I'm not that ambitious - so I'll just ask.  Regarding the chain sheaves, the vertical chain links will ride in the slot that you've cut in the sheave.  Will the horizontal chain links ride in pockets, or will they just wrap around the outside of the sheave?

Don
Yeah, its back a few pages someplace, the horizontal links just lay flat on the surface of the rim, no pockets. They are not needed since the sheaves are not driving or being driven by the chain, they are just freewheeling like the sheaves on a rope pulley. Makes my job a whole lot easier!


By contrast, the chains on a cuckoo clock need to drive the shaft, so those fit in pockets on the sheave, complicated to machine and depend on a specific length link.


I just finished making the hub shafts for the sheaves, and loctited them in place, photos later when it has cured up and can be handled without risk of moving the shafts.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 20, 2018, 08:17:46 PM
This afternoon got the rest of the slots cut in the rims of the chain sheaves, and turned the centers of the sides back to the dished profile:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/50b0p22lj/IMG_2210.jpg)
Here are the sheaves set about where they will be on the main boom - the two at the tip hold the fall to the bucket pulley, the other two hold the chain above the top of the main boom and guide it to the other pulleys.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/875k8ofbr/IMG_2213.jpg)
Next step was to make the axle hubs - lots less material to remove and easier to shape by making these seperately from the rims. The centers are drilled for some bronze bushings to be made next. After turning the hubs, they were held in place with some loctite retaining compound.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xpxwlpebb/IMG_2214.jpg)
The hubs on the two sheaves that go on the top of the boom are offset from center, since the chain has to angle from the center of the boom over to one side to line up with the right hand sheave at the tip.
Next up - make the bronze bushings...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 21, 2018, 05:02:19 PM
Last couple of steps on the chain sheaves for the main boom - got some bronze bushings turned/drilled and loctited in, then drilled the holes around the perimeter of the two top ones (not sure why they are there, but the original has them).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7t4qfz987/IMG_2215.jpg)
So the sheaves are all made, ready for the support brackets and axles.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xbx2szl2f/IMG_2216.jpg)
I noticed that they were starting to rust already, so got a coat of the bake-on epoxy paint on them this morning. The 12L14 turns very nicely, but is very prone to a light surface rust, which is why I don't get it anymore. This piece was leftover from the sheels on the Shay model, had to clearcoat them to prevent the rust.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/u52j9dg1z/IMG_2217.jpg)
Next is the support plates that hold the top sheaves, which hold the chain above the boom, visible in the left of this photo:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/61brlbi87/DSC_5043.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: b.lindsey on March 21, 2018, 06:46:57 PM
looking good Chris and still following along even if quietly :)

Bill
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 21, 2018, 08:05:28 PM
looking good Chris and still following along even if quietly :)

Bill
Better quietly than standing behind me and jingling the change in your pocket like a salesman!!   :lolb:


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dan Rowe on March 21, 2018, 09:24:29 PM
Looking good Chris.
Are we going to see some micro forging for the brace rods and U bolt eyes?

Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 21, 2018, 09:27:14 PM
Looking good Chris.
Are we going to see some micro forging for the brace rods and U bolt eyes?

Dan
Don't know, have not thought that far ahead - got a small anvil, though finding teensy lumps of coal may take a few days...! Have to see how many cookies the shop elves will charge me to outsource it to their forge...

 :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dan Rowe on March 21, 2018, 10:28:40 PM
Chris coal would work but I was thinking something like this:
http://www.anvilfire.com/article.php?bodyName=/21centbs/forges/microfrg.htm

I have thought about a few times for some of the forged Shay brake rods.

Dan

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 22, 2018, 12:51:39 AM
Chris coal would work but I was thinking something like this:
http://www.anvilfire.com/article.php?bodyName=/21centbs/forges/microfrg.htm (http://www.anvilfire.com/article.php?bodyName=/21centbs/forges/microfrg.htm)

I have thought about a few times for some of the forged Shay brake rods.

Dan
That's pretty slick. Fired from my Sievert torch, would be able to handle anything I am likely to make. Hmmm....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Chester on March 22, 2018, 04:17:29 AM
Chris, I am quietly looking on in awe, what a great job you are doing. I was just up in your neck of the woods this weekend dropping the young lad off at college (RIT) and I was thinking about you on the trip up. I whipped the phone out and shared your adventure with my son and his roommate. Coming from the coal region of Pa, I’ve had the opportunity to get into a few of the Marion shovels around here and they are an impressive piece of equipment. Nothing as old and historic as your steam shovel but the 7400 and 7800 draglines are interesting to get a ride in. My dad worked in the industry and got me in a few times when I was younger .
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 22, 2018, 11:26:23 AM
Chris, I am quietly looking on in awe, what a great job you are doing. I was just up in your neck of the woods this weekend dropping the young lad off at college (RIT) and I was thinking about you on the trip up. I whipped the phone out and shared your adventure with my son and his roommate. Coming from the coal region of Pa, I’ve had the opportunity to get into a few of the Marion shovels around here and they are an impressive piece of equipment. Nothing as old and historic as your steam shovel but the 7400 and 7800 draglines are interesting to get a ride in. My dad worked in the industry and got me in a few times when I was younger .
Many moons ago I attended RIT myself, the school has grown quite a bit since those days. I envy your trips into those big shovels, impressive machines!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 22, 2018, 04:30:01 PM
Moving on with the chain sheaves, rough cut the side panels for the stands, then clamped them together to mill the edges to shape and drill the mounting holes. Clamping them together ensured that they all match. The panels bolt to some 1/4" angle stock on the bottoms, and the bearing blocks at the top.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/az3kutn87/IMG_2221.jpg)
Here are a couple shots of the sheaves all in position. Still need to shape the tops of the bearing caps, and make the end plates/cotters for the ones at the end of the boom. The chain is laid across the sheaves to show how it all works - the bottom sheave (on the left in the photo) is centered to guide the chain from the center of the turntable, the next one over is shifted to the side to guide the chain onto the first pulley on the tip of the boom.  Looking forward to getting enough done to set it all in place!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fxr39d6gn/IMG_2225.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/z2ucj4dev/IMG_2226.jpg)
Next up is to shape down the bearing caps around the axles.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Swarf Maker on March 22, 2018, 05:31:16 PM
What an absolutely stunning piece of work this is. The Lombard was also superb and I know that you are a stickler for accuracy. Thus I am very reluctant to point out that the top sheave in your photo of the full size machine has 3 holes - not 4. Hate me if you must!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 22, 2018, 05:57:51 PM
What an absolutely stunning piece of work this is. The Lombard was also superb and I know that you are a stickler for accuracy. Thus I am very reluctant to point out that the top sheave in your photo of the full size machine has 3 holes - not 4. Hate me if you must!
Huh. Missed that one! Suppose I could plug and re-drill, not sure if it is worth it though. Maybe I can blame it on the shop elves?!   :Lol:

Just recieved a 1909 copy of the Marion steam shovel catalog that I found on Ebay, absolute ton of information in it, even has cross sections of the sheaves and throttles. More reading to do...

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on March 23, 2018, 03:57:09 AM
Chris,
 Sounds like you are going to have to punish the elves for making a mistake like that!
Don’t with hold cookies though, they may go on strike!

The boom just gets better and better!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 23, 2018, 06:17:06 PM
What an absolutely stunning piece of work this is. The Lombard was also superb and I know that you are a stickler for accuracy. Thus I am very reluctant to point out that the top sheave in your photo of the full size machine has 3 holes - not 4. Hate me if you must!
Thanks for pointing that one out - turns out I needed to pull the sheaves again for other work, so I plugged three of the holes in each and drilled two new ones in the right place - that would have bugged me later on if I found out then.
   :cheers:

Chris,
 Sounds like you are going to have to punish the elves for making a mistake like that!
Don’t with hold cookies though, they may go on strike!

The boom just gets better and better!

Cheers Kerrin
Well, tried blaming them, but they pulled up the shop security video and showed it was me who did it. Sigh...  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 23, 2018, 06:32:48 PM
Catching up with the pictures from yesterday and today - I made up the top caps for the bearing blocks yesterday afternoon, same technique as before, except since the parts are small, I used a thin piece of rod to space it from the axle hole, which left enough low down to grip in the vise. As long as the rod it touching the 'top' of the hole, at whatever angle the part is at, this works fine.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xbb0z1uw7/IMG_2227.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/pikd72h7b/IMG_2228.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/f8hy7tjlz/IMG_2229.jpg)
Finished caps in place:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/h0ax2qq47/IMG_2230.jpg)
On the original, the axle would be fixed in the sheave, and turn in the bearing block. On the model, since aligning the blocks to that degree of accuracy would be a lot harder (and given the little bit of flex the thin upright has), I decided to have the axle clamped in the blocks, and the sheaves spin on their own bearings on the axle. The end behavior is the same, and this is more robust for the model.

The next parts up are the bails that hold the end of the support rods from the A-frame top cap. These rods keep the boom at a 45 degree angle, and while they look like cables with eye splices in the ends, they were actually forged out of one bar (not sure of the alloy, the catalogs mention it is a fibrous crystal structure in the iron/steel that allow some give). These bails bolt through the end of the boom near the sheaves. I tried bending them up, but could not get a good curve in the end by the bolts, so decided to piece them up from a larger brass rod and thinner steel rod. The steel was bent over a 3/8" rod to get the curve, then the legs were cut to length. They were then silver soldered into holes in the brass bar:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/f8hy7yosn/IMG_2362.jpg)
After cleaning up the flux and sawing the two lengths of bar apart, put them in the chuck on the rotary table, and milled the shape in the ends under the rod - the mill ran just up to the steel bar, so an inside cirve was left there:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/q835jkunb/IMG_2364.jpg)
After both ends of each bar were done the same way, the centers were cut out of the brass with a hacksaw, leaving this:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/j4va3z4nb/IMG_2365.jpg)
A little clean up with a file, and they were bolted onto the boom - they will come off again later to insert the eye of the rod back to the A-frame over the bail.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/nqrecbxw7/IMG_2366.jpg)
After plugging and redrilling the three holes in the top sheaves, here is the current set of parts:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/pvbrdf78n/IMG_2371.jpg)
I've started laying out the parts for the A-frame stay rods - they will be pieced up in a similar way.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Gas_mantle on March 23, 2018, 06:53:00 PM
Looks great Chris  :)

I dread to think how many nuts and bolts you have needed
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 23, 2018, 07:01:48 PM
Looks great Chris  :)

I dread to think how many nuts and bolts you have needed
There are over 250 studs in the main boom, about 400 nuts. So far...!  :o

Thats why I bought the bundles of threaded rod, I'd be going (even more) crazy  :insane: threading all that rod stock. Same for the nuts, bought a big bag of 2-56 small pattern nuts.

The main boom is the biggest user of nuts and bolts in the whole model, way more than the dipper boom. If they had made it from one large casting it wouldn't have had them all, but the fact that they bolted up a steel shell around a white oak core for all the booms really upped the count!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dan Rowe on March 23, 2018, 07:22:29 PM
not sure of the alloy, the catalogs mention it is a fibrous crystal structure in the iron/steel that allow some give

Chris, that description sounds like wrought iron which was the common material used for that type of forging in that era.

Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 23, 2018, 09:01:14 PM
not sure of the alloy, the catalogs mention it is a fibrous crystal structure in the iron/steel that allow some give

Chris, that description sounds like wrought iron which was the common material used for that type of forging in that era.

Dan
Probably something like that. In the 1909 catalog they talk a lot about having their own iron and steel production, open hearth, converters, and mention that they have several of there own special alloys for many parts (chain and dipper especially), but no details of what those alloys are. Their 25 acre factory complex would have been an amazing place to tour! Like so many, its all gone now, last of it closed up in the 90's when Bucyrus bought them out.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 23, 2018, 11:46:21 PM
Made up the ends for the stays that run from the bails on the main boom back to the A-frame. On the original these were forged all in one piece with the stay, but for the model I am piecing them up. Started with some brass flat bar, drilled for the end opening and a small second hole at the end, and bolted them to the rotary table to shape the outside edges. Ran passes down the outside to do the straight sections, 10 degrees either side of center, then ran around the large end with the rotary table.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5s1scby47/IMG_2369.jpg)
Then over to the bench vise, and cut in the V opening with a small hacksaw blade.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gevlhqyjr/IMG_2372.jpg)
Trimmed off the narrow ends to get rid of the small hole used to hold it in the mill, and drilled the ends to take the stay rod.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qc6matll3/IMG_2374.jpg)
Some filing and sanding, and ready to silver solder them to the rods. I am only doing one end at this point, I want to wait to do the second end to get the exact length when the A-frame and turntable are ready - way too many parts in between to build up tolerances for me to assume that I'll get the length perfect from the plans! So, I'll do one end now and finish it up later.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5fae65v9z/IMG_2375.jpg)
After silver soldering, took it to the belt sander to blend in the ends of the brass to the rods.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/aqpaqvp2f/IMG_2376.jpg)
Looking good, on to the next parts!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: vcutajar on March 24, 2018, 01:29:50 PM
Quote
Looking good

Looking extra good.

Vince
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 90LX_Notch on March 24, 2018, 05:38:58 PM
Wow Chris, l haven't checked in for some time.  Unbelievable work and progress.  Your builds always amaze me.

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 24, 2018, 07:08:40 PM
Thanks Bob/Vince, nice to see you down here in the quarry!

Number of little fiddly-bits on the main boom this afternoon, variety of steps on the side, drilling/tapping holes in the sheave holder that the crowd engine throttle lever will attach to, and also the hole for the bucket door release rope.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xdmmxamuf/IMG_2378.jpg)
Coming down to the last parts before I start on the turntable and A-frame, the bearing blocks that hold the shipper shaft (not sure where that name comes from, its the axle that the gears driven from the crowd engine sit on, that drive the dipper boom in and out). After that is the large gears that are on that axle outboard of the ones moving the dipper gear rack, and the curved guards that go around them.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/pyxb4r0x3/Bearing_Blocks.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: sco on March 24, 2018, 09:03:47 PM
Just watched a couple of videos of steam shovels to see how the dipper boom worked - operator had to be pretty skilled to coordinate the in/out up/down motion of the bucket.

Simon.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 24, 2018, 09:53:37 PM
Just watched a couple of videos of steam shovels to see how the dipper boom worked - operator had to be pretty skilled to coordinate the in/out up/down motion of the bucket.

Simon.
On ones of this type there were two operators for digging, one did the hoist and swing of the bucket, the other one (out on the turntable at the base of the main boom) controlled the crowd engine, running the bucket in and out. Must have been quite a skill to have the two guys work as one, the experienced ones worked quite quickly. The one on the turntable also pulled the rope to dump the load from the bucket.

In Marion's catalog, they talk about how the up/down, left/right, and in/out motions were controlled by a single lever each on their machines, since the internal valves on the swing and crowd engines controlled BOTH speed and direction with one lever, and the hoist engine had a bypass so pushing the throttle lever back all the way would vent the cylinders, letting them freewheel, and letting the operator lower the bucket without having to move the clutch or brake levers. Very clever stuff - with two levers, the main operator could raise/lower and swing the boom side to side, and with one lever the second operator could run the dipper boom in and out.

I had this little animation on an earlier post, here it is again:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4sfitovfb/Marion_Animation.gif)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 25, 2018, 02:00:20 AM
Got a start on the bearing blocks tonight - split a length of 3/8" x 1-14/" stainless down the middle to get the blanks, squared them up, and traced out a cardstock template of the outline. This outline is not a critical shape, so I am not going to get too picky on the milling, going for fair curves and as close as I can get to the dimensions. The important dimension is the total height to the center of the shaft. Since milling a block to a shape like this can allow the manufacturing stresses in the metal to cause some bending down the length (which it did slightly when splitting the block), I left the blanks 50 thou tall till the curves were cut in.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/cielah3yv/IMG_2380.jpg)
Then back over to the (you guessed it) trusty tooling plate on the rotary table, where the blanks were clamped down with a piece of cardstock underneath to give the end mill clearance to the table. Then, hogged off the majority of the metal in straight passes, then did a series of finer cuts with the rotary table to mill in the inner curve, blending that out to the straight outer ends with a little Etcha-Sketch action.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/cielahbon/IMG_2383.jpg)
After doing both blanks, here is the blocks so far, set next to the row of bolts that they will sit on:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/emyybkl13/IMG_2385.jpg)
Its impossible to tell on the real machine how they handled the bolts under the block, whether they flush countersunk them like on the dipper boom, inlet them into the bottom of these blocks with notches, or drilled/tapped the bottom of the blocks to use the through-bolts to help hold them down. I am going to go with the last option, and add a set of studs at the outer ends between the through-bolts.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: sco on March 25, 2018, 06:12:56 AM
Just watched a couple of videos of steam shovels to see how the dipper boom worked - operator had to be pretty skilled to coordinate the in/out up/down motion of the bucket.

Simon.
On ones of this type there were two operators for digging, one did the hoist and swing of the bucket, the other one (out on the turntable at the base of the main boom) controlled the crowd engine, running the bucket in and out. Must have been quite a skill to have the two guys work as one, the experienced ones worked quite quickly. The one on the turntable also pulled the rope to dump the load from the bucket.

In Marion's catalog, they talk about how the up/down, left/right, and in/out motions were controlled by a single lever each on their machines, since the internal valves on the swing and crowd engines controlled BOTH speed and direction with one lever, and the hoist engine had a bypass so pushing the throttle lever back all the way would vent the cylinders, letting them freewheel, and letting the operator lower the bucket without having to move the clutch or brake levers. Very clever stuff - with two levers, the main operator could raise/lower and swing the boom side to side, and with one lever the second operator could run the dipper boom in and out.

I had this little animation on an earlier post, here it is again:
(https://s5.postimg.org/4sfitovfb/Marion_Animation.gif)

Missed that animation first time round Chris but it shows well the motion of the bucket.  In the labelled CAD picture you showed a couple of posts ago is there a bit missing that keeps the boom rack in mesh with the gear - in some of the videos some of the shovals seemed to have a hoop over the boom to control the gear mesh.  This bit;

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on March 25, 2018, 07:19:41 AM
Yep, missing the holder-downer part....

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 25, 2018, 01:11:08 PM
.....

....

Missed that animation first time round Chris but it shows well the motion of the bucket.  In the labelled CAD picture you showed a couple of posts ago is there a bit missing that keeps the boom rack in mesh with the gear - in some of the videos some of the shovals seemed to have a hoop over the boom to control the gear mesh.  This bit;

That hold-down part is not part of the design for the Marion shovels. The one in that picture shows the dipper booms on the outside of the one piece solid main boom so they needed that upside-down U shape to connect everything. On the Marion shovels the main boom has a gap in the center that the dipper booms are in and the connector is in the center. Here is what the equivalent piece in the Marion looks like:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/d5397b7cn/Yoke_Block.jpg)
It has the axle for the gears at the bottom and the plate at the top rides along the dipper boom. That presses the gear into the rack. Same end result but done with a part down the center rather than the outside. Here is another view of the Marion assembly, with the near-side parts removed to show the center:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xrovzdhlj/Cross_section.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: sco on March 25, 2018, 04:27:15 PM
Makes sense Chris - thanks for explaining that detail.

Simon.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on March 25, 2018, 05:36:23 PM
Ah ha! Very neatly placed in the center. Nice.

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 25, 2018, 05:42:30 PM
Ah ha! Very neatly placed in the center. Nice.

Pete
One of the books shows 6 or 8 different basic arrangements for the dipper connection to the main boom, many makers, many inventions!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 26, 2018, 12:27:09 AM
Wrapping up the bearing blocks this afternoon - cut the top caps from some 3/8" square stock, drilled/tapped the holes to mount them to the bases, and drilled the axle bearing holes.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4bx5wezqf/IMG_2386.jpg)
Made up the bronze bearings, had them project out from the blocks slightly to give the gears something to rub against. With the axle in place to align the blocks to each other, held the blocks on top of the booms and marked where the vertical bolts came up - drilled/tapped matching holes in the blocks, plus an extra one at the end.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4bx5wf7g7/IMG_2387.jpg)
Here is the two blocks bolted into the boom, using the end bolts and the four through bolts in the boom underneath. Things aligned pretty well, just needed one thin shim on one side to get the axle to line up freely.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wc19gpimf/IMG_2388.jpg)
Then milled the caps down, just like on the previous ones, and bolted them down. The small gears needed a little trimming on the sander to get the whole assembly to fit between the bearing blocks. This photo shows the traveling yoke that the dipper boom slides through, holding the gear rack on the bottom of the boom in mesh with the small gears that move it - same as in the rendering from the 3D model in the previous post.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5e7cezdev/IMG_2389.jpg)
And here is a family shot of all the parts:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/h3bc2xwnr/IMG_2390.jpg)
I'd like to put the booms together for a shot, but it is quite awkward to try and hold the main boom to slide in the dipper, then get all the bolts on the yoke shaft back in. I think that will wait a bit till I can get the turntable base made, all these parts are over 10 pounds so far and it gets tricky to handle them all together.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on March 26, 2018, 05:55:42 AM
Wow, that is a great bit of work! That is a true masterpiece.

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on March 26, 2018, 01:47:18 PM
So it seems that the dipper can be moved to either side of the boom, and that's the reason for the two pulleys?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 26, 2018, 02:10:46 PM
So it seems that the dipper can be moved to either side of the boom, and that's the reason for the two pulleys?
Not sure what you mean by either side?  The two top pulleys route the chain above the boom and the crowd engine which will sit on top of the boom. The chain runs through the gap in the dipper boom as it goes in/out and pivots on the axle just added. The dipper boom only sits in the center space in the main boom, never to either side on the Marion shovels.


I have come up with a plan to make a temporary base for the boom so I can set it up, photos later today after its made...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 26, 2018, 04:02:28 PM
Okay, the temporary base for the boom assembly is made, worked out quite well as a extra couple sets of hands for assembling the booms for testing. The bottom left block has a cross pin for the hole in the base caps, and the right block holds the main boom up at its 45 degree angle - both blocks are glued and screwed in from the bottom of the base since there is a lot of force on them.
So, here is a shot with the dipper boom about halfway out:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/h9phpfpbb/IMG_2391.jpg)
and with the dipper boom most of the way in:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5xcw7obhj/IMG_2398.jpg)
Shot from above showing how the dipper boom sits inside the main boom, and the hoist chain comes back down the center of the dipper handle:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dq3jzn9qv/IMG_2393.jpg)
View from behind showing the gear rack, small drive gears, and the yoke block in the center that holds the dipper handle. Still to make are the two large gears that go on the outside ends of the axle.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/j1igkco3r/IMG_2395.jpg)
Front view of all that:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3ssj6kmpj/IMG_2397.jpg)
You can see in the last shot how the wood core blocks are cut back to allow the dipper to swing from past straight down to above horizontal.

I better lock up the shop tonight, those shop elves will get drunk on a thinblefull of beer and start riding the bucket up and down!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on March 26, 2018, 04:32:12 PM
My bad.  Didn't realize the dipper was split down the middle from looking at your drawing.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 26, 2018, 04:53:23 PM
My bad.  Didn't realize the dipper was split down the middle from looking at your drawing.
Yeah, its hard to see what's connected to what with all the stacked up parts. I have a list of photo angles I want to get next time I go out to the real one, thousands of pics and still am missing details!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Gas_mantle on March 26, 2018, 05:11:34 PM
Very impressive work Chris  :)

At that size it is almost capable of performing real work.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 26, 2018, 09:44:47 PM
Very impressive work Chris  :)

At that size it is almost capable of performing real work.
At least scoop flour and chips for the next batch o cookies!  Mmmmmm.... cookies.... 
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: RJH on March 26, 2018, 11:55:11 PM
It's looking great Chris, I look in daily to see what's new.
Are you going to mount the support bails on the upper end of the boom with a large pin like the real one?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 27, 2018, 12:42:44 AM
It's looking great Chris, I look in daily to see what's new.
Are you going to mount the support bails on the upper end of the boom with a large pin like the real one?
It will get a washer plate, as will the end sheave axle to simulate the look. Its hard to tell how the real ones were on the inside, doubt they will let me take it apart!   :o   Wish I could find a spare parts book for one this old, they are out there for the ones in the 50's and 60's. The Lombard hauler had one, that helped a lot.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 27, 2018, 12:50:02 AM
Wow.  :o That's all I can say, is, Wow.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 27, 2018, 01:23:42 AM
Wow.  :o That's all I can say, is, Wow.


Hi Carl!  Good to hear from you again.  Back on the Stanley topic, found out one of the guys I shoot with has an original Locomobile engine, couple replaced parts but it runs on compressed air. Still working on getting him to sell it to me. Maybe next time he needs money for parts on his model t or corvair...


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on March 27, 2018, 07:44:59 AM
Looking good Chris, how’s the elve party going? You better find there planning board, or put out cookie piles to keep there minds off mischief!

Oh Sunday, at my mates place playing White steam cars! Friday it had been going great, Sunday, well no! So back to the drawing board to see what we can figure out what’s changed. Trouble shooting hot steam cars is fun, lots of coffee while you wait for them to cool down enuff so you can try plan b, or c or d.......

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steam Haulage on March 27, 2018, 09:35:13 AM
Hi Chris, The HCEA has masses of detailed information in their archive. Which includes the 'Marion PowerShovel Company Archive'.
Being a few thousand miles away I'm not in a position to visit their Museum for myself but from whatI hear you may be able to find the detail you need. There might even be a member who has the information.  A recent article in 'Equipment Echoes' magazine by Don Franz the editor, whose father had been a craneman on the Marion 91 Panama shovel in the France quarry in Waterville Ohio.
The HCEA phone is(419)352-5616. Perhaps a call might be worthwhile?
Jerry
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 27, 2018, 06:37:49 PM
Hi Chris, The HCEA has masses of detailed information in their archive. Which includes the 'Marion PowerShovel Company Archive'.
Being a few thousand miles away I'm not in a position to visit their Museum for myself but from whatI hear you may be able to find the detail you need. There might even be a member who has the information.  A recent article in 'Equipment Echoes' magazine by Don Franz the editor, whose father had been a craneman on the Marion 91 Panama shovel in the France quarry in Waterville Ohio.
The HCEA phone is(419)352-5616. Perhaps a call might be worthwhile?
Jerry
I have been through the listings of those archives, for the early years it appears that what they have are patent documents and sales brochures and such, all in very poor condition (dirty, brittle) waiting to be photocopied. For the early years, does not sound like they have much I have not seen elsewhere. The Marion County historical society got the other half of the old company documents. I've been in touch with them a few times, things are not organized but I may stop in there on my way out to Indiana this summer and see what I can find. Both places got boxes of documents when the company was shut down in the 90s by Bucyrus - by then, as in many old companies, early records were mostly missing as irrelevant to current operations. Same thing happened at Kodak - we had a museum room full of old cameras and products, and during the bankruptcy shutdown of the camera division, they were just giving the stuff away to anyone interested in a souvineer! For companies like Marion, every time they went through a building move, merger, or buyout, truckloads of stuff would be tossed that we would kill for today!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 27, 2018, 06:39:53 PM
Looking good Chris, how’s the elve party going? You better find there planning board, or put out cookie piles to keep there minds off mischief!

Oh Sunday, at my mates place playing White steam cars! Friday it had been going great, Sunday, well no! So back to the drawing board to see what we can figure out what’s changed. Trouble shooting hot steam cars is fun, lots of coffee while you wait for them to cool down enuff so you can try plan b, or c or d.......

Cheers Kerrin
It was not too bad, the cops only showed up once...   :lolb:

Sounds like great fun with the steam cars, when are you going to drive one way over here (you can do laps of the ships deck while crossing the oceans) for us to play with??  Glad you guys are keeping them active and preserved!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 27, 2018, 10:41:31 PM
Today got a start on the large gears which drive the dipper boom in and out, driven by the crowd engine. Strted by cutting a pair of discs (left slightly oversize) out of some 1/4" x 4" 360 brass bar:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/50l7uo1qv/IMG_2399.jpg)
which was drilled in the center for the axle, bolted to a centered arbor in the 4-jaw, then 3 more bolts added out in the areas where the spoke cutouts will be, to prevent the gear from turning on the arbor and ruining the gear (had that happen in the past, did not want to risk wasting these big chunks). Once on the rotary table, the discs were trued up to final diameter with an end mill.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xdgpl4frb/IMG_2403.jpg)
Then the rotary table was moved to its vertical position, and the gear cutter (module 1) centered by sighting it on the axle hole.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4nttoh41j/IMG_2404.jpg)
Moved back out to the rim, moved in till the cutter was just touching the disc, then moved in for the depth of the teeth and started cutting all 86 teeth on each disc. I pre-calculate the rotab moves in a spreadsheet, with the results rounded to tenth of a degree, then print that out and tick off each move as they are made to ensure that I dont skip one. Still, with this many to cut, it takes focus to keep track of all the moves.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/aorilkliv/IMG_2406.jpg)
Here is one of the gears held up to the main boom to show where it will go:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gcxtcgi5j/IMG_2408.jpg)
With all the teeth cut on both gears the rotary table was laid back down horizontally to cut the spokes. The spokes on these are fairly narrow and are tapered, narrower at the rim. Using the 3D model the angles and distances were found for all the corners of the spoke openings, assuming a 1/8" drill and mill will be used. The corners will be squared off with a file later. So, went through the list of angles and distances to drill the inner and outer corner holes, and drew in the outlines of the spokes to aid in keeping track of where the waste is during milling, since with this many holes it looks like a random pattern withouth the lines.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5q4071x5j/IMG_2409.jpg)
Then, on to the actual spoke cutting. I like to work from the rim back in to the center to avoid any flexing in the part (not that big a problem in a thick gear like this, but its my habit). So, started by roughing in the arcs between each spoke - made the first cut just inside the finished edge since these thin end mills will flex slightly when making a through cut in thick material. In this photo, all 6 openings were roughed in, and the two on the right were taken out to final dimension with a series of light passes.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/z59og29ev/IMG_2411.jpg)
Four more to go on that gear, then the same on the other gear, and it will be ready for the next step in shaping the spokes - thinning the edge between that arc and the bottom of the teeth to form the rim.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on March 28, 2018, 01:57:04 AM
Dog, dog you are the man! I missed some days here but geeez man your moving like a freight train through this thing. A well planned model and some of the best damn craftmanship yet. Great fabrication work just jaw dropping. Love how you planned the gears Chris well though out bud.  :praise2:


Don  :drinking-41:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 28, 2018, 02:03:49 AM
Dog, dog you are the man! I missed some days here but geeez man your moving like a freight train through this thing. A well planned model and some of the best damn craftmanship yet. Great fabrication work just jaw dropping. Love how you planned the gears Chris well though out bud.  :praise2:


Don  :drinking-41:


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steam Haulage on March 28, 2018, 08:40:11 AM
Hi Chris,
Thanks for the information on the HCEA and other archives. Seems as though our immediate forefathers were keener on tidiness than on history, no matter which country or continent is involved. Amazingly the only thing for which there seems to be any adequate record is the period from 1939 to 1945. Perhaps by 1950 they were wanting to put the past behind them

Maginificent work on the Marion 91; as others have said youir rate of progress is amazing.  Cookies seem to help but your progress can't only be down to their consumption.
I'm still working on the drawings for the 19-RB, the development in shovels between 1910 and 1945 seems to have added to the complexity of the engineering.

Jerry :old:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 28, 2018, 01:46:42 PM
Hi Chris,
Thanks for the information on the HCEA and other archives. Seems as though our immediate forefathers were keener on tidiness than on history, no matter which country or continent is involved. Amazingly the only thing for which there seems to be any adequate record is the period from 1939 to 1945. Perhaps by 1950 they were wanting to put the past behind them

Maginificent work on the Marion 91; as others have said youir rate of progress is amazing.  Cookies seem to help but your progress can't only be down to their consumption.
I'm still working on the drawings for the 19-RB, the development in shovels between 1910 and 1945 seems to have added to the complexity of the engineering.

Jerry :old:
Have you found good detail on the 19-RB, found one to measure maybe?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on March 28, 2018, 02:02:02 PM
Chris--Amazing work as usual. A quick question about your gear cutting picture. Do you lower the cutter until it is completely thru the part before you start milling the curved slots, or do you do it in a number of small depth cuts over and over until you are thru?---Brian
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steam Haulage on March 28, 2018, 03:09:59 PM
If only.

I have just had medical advice that I can no longer drive and to surrender my driving licence. I've been diabetic for almost fifty years and have been lucky to have been able to drive for all that time. Old age.

The nearest to me is at Threlkeld quarry museum but that is almost impossible to get to by public transport. Might get one of the step children to drive me there once the weather improves.

I have been able to get a lot of R-B publications, including the spec. that the UK military used duting WWII. Most useful, and containing almost all the dimensions I need is the parts and assembly manual for the 19RB. The spec and manual give enough dimensions to be able to derive the actual sizes as built when associated with the large numbers of photos and videos I have collected. In doing the Inventor modelling I decided to do full paramentric so that I can (hopefully) make amendments when (if) I get a chance to have a measuring session(s) with a full size machine.
Some of the info. has come from the HCEA as the 19RB and the 19B apparently were built to the Bucyrus 19B drawings.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 28, 2018, 03:26:12 PM
Chris--Amazing work as usual. A quick question about your gear cutting picture. Do you lower the cutter until it is completely thru the part before you start milling the curved slots, or do you do it in a number of small depth cuts over and over until you are thru?---Brian

On these arcs I lowered the cutter right through (brand new cutter, nice and sharp) and then slowly rotated the table through the arc. Then cranked it back the other way, and saw it take more out of the one side, could see how much it had pulled the cutter in one direction on the first pass. I'm sure that taking several shallower cuts would have reduced this, but since the entire inside of the 'pie' would be removed anyway, no concern about the thickness of the kerf removed, and this was quicker. This is 360 brass, so it cuts nice and smooth - on aluminum I would have mad several passes to prevent clogging. After that initial pass, did a couple more about 20 thou each to get out to the final dimension on the arc.

This morning I've gotten the rest of the arcs cut, and have started in on shaping the inner edge of the rim with a ball end mill - pics to come after lunch...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 28, 2018, 07:57:57 PM
More on the spoke-ification process this afternoon. Milled the depth of the spokes in at the ends where the slots are, and out to the rim.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/yh1agbjvb/IMG_2412.jpg)
then switched to a 1/8" diameter ball end mill, and took that depth 1/16" into the rim:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/y49wa59bb/IMG_2413.jpg)
Did the same on both sides of each of the two gears. Now its time to start chopping out the pie shaped bits between the spokes. As before, I made the first cut just inside the actual dimension so I could clean up the cut with some lighter passes. The spokes are tapered, so the rotary table was set to 5.4 degrees off centerline of the spoke.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/g1gtixl6f/IMG_2414.jpg)
You can see in that last photo that one of the screws is still in place to ensure the gear does not turn - that will be cleaned out last.
With the table swung over 5.4 degrees the other side of center, rough cut the second side of each spoke, releasing the chunk in the middle - was careful to go slow on the last bit of each, and was pushing down with a metal rod to force the chunk away from the cutter as it let go, did not want it catching in the cutter.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5reejpig7/IMG_2415.jpg)
Then back around each spoke, taking light cuts till they ended at the bottom of the stop holes in the corners.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/hgie7ntzb/IMG_2417.jpg)
Last step was to take the rest of each spoke down to depth, then mill the square hub outline in the center. Normally I would not square the hub, but thats how the original is. For the final cuts, the side screw was put into different holes as needed. Same pattern on both sides of the gear, with the squares aligned to each other.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4p4815rx3/IMG_2418.jpg)
And here is the first gear all milled out and set on the axle - still some trim bits to add, and need to make the final axle, for now been using an offcut which is a little short.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/uknykd96f/IMG_2419.jpg)
One down, one to finish up...
 :cartwheel:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on March 28, 2018, 08:42:42 PM
Beautifully done. That gear is a work of art, shame it's going to be painted  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 28, 2018, 11:02:50 PM
Beautifully done. That gear is a work of art, shame it's going to be painted  :cheers:
Just think of paint as really heavy tarnish!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 28, 2018, 11:12:45 PM
Got the second gear up to the same point as the first:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4mtj5kq3r/IMG_2422.jpg)
Here they are on the boom:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/it9a0st93/IMG_2421.jpg)
Realized I did not show the arbor on the rotary table - you can see how the mill left the pattern of the spokes in the top. There are three sets of holes: middle one for the axle hole, three outside ones used during initial drilling for the spokes, and 6 middle ones that are at the point where the spokes meet near the hub. Two of those were drilled/tapped in for screws used after the pie sections between the spokes were cut out, to keep the gear from turning.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dulrm9hqf/IMG_2420.jpg)

Next is to figure out how to make the little angled plates at the ends of the spokes, like in this photo:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fz64nrr7b/Crowd_Gear_Closeup.jpg)
The red arrows are pointing at the little angle braces cast into the gear (also, you can see how incredibly worn the gear is after 50 years of use! ). They would be really small to fabricate and solder in, wonder if putting down a blob of JB Weld and carving that with a dental bit would work better. Don't really need them, but it would be one of those neat little details...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on March 28, 2018, 11:25:50 PM
Thanks for your answer Chris. I've always been to concerned about breaking an endmill to try cutting a slot all in one bite.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 29, 2018, 03:26:54 AM
Thanks for your answer Chris. I've always been to concerned about breaking an endmill to try cutting a slot all in one bite.---Brian
If it was steel, I wouldn't have tried it, but the brass cut fine with a slow feed.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: J.L. on March 29, 2018, 10:17:47 AM
Hi Chris,

Superb sequential photography on the making of these two gear wheeels. Do you think you will put in those little reinforcing gussets?
Knowing your attention to detail, I bet you will.

 :popcorn:

John
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 29, 2018, 01:40:40 PM
Hi Chris,

Superb sequential photography on the making of these two gear wheeels. Do you think you will put in those little reinforcing gussets?
Knowing your attention to detail, I bet you will.

 :popcorn:

John
Thanks John. 


Had an idea how to add the little gusset plates last night (my usual late night idea delivery from back of the brain). Going to try cutting thin slots with a dental bit and high speed air tool to hold triangles cut from brass shim stock, could hold in with loctite or jb weld. Will try on some scrap and see, but it should work. Its one of those little details that draws the eye in a model.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 29, 2018, 05:28:26 PM
Gave the gusset paltes a try this morning, so far so good. Used the air-powered TurboCarver tool with a fine dental bit (about 0.020 slot from it) and made slots at the rim and hub edges for the plates.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ze868e4jr/IMG_2425.jpg)
Here is a bit of shim stock sitting in the slot:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fwdisgfbr/IMG_2429.jpg)
I used some JB QuikWeld to glue plates in all the slots (48 of them), let them set up a couple hours, and trimmed them off:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/r8q4a88l3/IMG_2431.jpg)
They are a subtle detail, but once painted I think it will add a nice touch.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 29, 2018, 06:53:24 PM
I got the gears loctited on to the shipper shaft and things re-assembled again, here is a couple photos, then a video of it in action:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ikc5upuyv/IMG_2434.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/arli2qwpj/IMG_2433.jpg)

Video showing how the motions work on the dipper:
7uMDKeb1aFM
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dan Rowe on March 29, 2018, 08:37:56 PM
Hi Chris, nice work as usual. How many were in the crew for one of these machines? It seems like at least a fireman and an operator would have been needed.

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: sco on March 29, 2018, 08:38:31 PM
Great result as usual Chris!

Any ideas why it's called crowd engine though?

Simon.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on March 29, 2018, 08:56:38 PM
Beautiful, Chris!  That is just down right cool!

Any ideas why it's called crowd engine though?

I've been wondering the same thing!  Why "crowd engine"?

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 29, 2018, 09:08:30 PM
Hi Chris, nice work as usual. How many were in the crew for one of these machines? It seems like at least a fireman and an operator would have been needed.

Cheers Dan
They had a bare minimum of 3 - operator in the front of the cab, second operator on the turntable for crowd and bucket release, and engineer on the boiler. Normally had 8 men in the crew - added stoker, and a crew of misc laborers for clearing fallen rock at base, moving jackscrews, getting water/coal, things like that.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 29, 2018, 09:17:52 PM
Great result as usual Chris!

Any ideas why it's called crowd engine though?

Simon.
That is a good question - and why do they call the shaft the big gears are on the shipper shaft? I have not found out where those terms come from, the earliest catalogs mention terminology as being semi-agreed upon between the manufacturers, terms seem to date from the very early machines. I wonder if it is one of those terms simplified from some other language terminology? I have seen wording where the act of pushing the bucket down into the ground is 'crowding'.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 29, 2018, 09:24:07 PM
Well, while Zee is off asking his grandparents about old german terminology for us, I've been working on some more of the little bits on the main boom.
The ends of the axle holding the chain sheaves at the tip of the boom  have flats milled in to keep it from spinning (the sheaves have their own bearings), and are drilled for cotter pins. Some of the pins on the LeRoy shovel have had field repairs, and there are nails, bits of rebar, that sort of thing, but I'll use wire cotters for the model.
Started by milling/drilling the ends of the axle, using the square holder for a 1/4" round collet to get the top/bottom flats to be parallel to each other. When reversing the rod for the other end, I sighted through the back of the collet to line up the flats end to end.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/81lcwzp1z/IMG_2436.jpg)
Little square plates were drilled and filed out to fit the ends of the shaft, then drilled/tapped holes in the end of the boom for some 1-72 hex head screws to hold them on.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/69se22xzb/IMG_2438.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on March 29, 2018, 09:34:05 PM
Love it you cut the other edges first while still plenty of meat on the spokes awesome planning no flex.  :ThumbsUp:


 :cheers: Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: sco on March 29, 2018, 09:35:33 PM
Seems like crowd is excavator terminology with the original source lost in time.  Thought this type of excavator was extinct but the 2016 research paper goes into the technology in some detail so they must still be used: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/305473850_Digging_forces_of_Electric_Rope_Shovel_and_Adjustment_made_for_a_Better_Digging_Shovel_Having_Optimum_Rake_and_Tooth_Angles (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/305473850_Digging_forces_of_Electric_Rope_Shovel_and_Adjustment_made_for_a_Better_Digging_Shovel_Having_Optimum_Rake_and_Tooth_Angles)

Simon.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on March 29, 2018, 10:17:18 PM
If it's any help, I know that the ram that operates the bucket on a modern hydraulic digger is called the crowd ram. I always asumed it was because it crowds the dirt into the bucket, but I'm probably way off mark . . .  :shrug:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on March 30, 2018, 12:58:56 AM
That's exactly where it comes from! Crowding is increasing the pressure. Like a crowd of people, which is where I think the word comes from somewhere in the history of the English language.

I check this thread two or three times a day always knowing there will be some new and wonderful progress made..

 :popcorn: :popcorn: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner_decoy on March 30, 2018, 01:03:05 AM
Chris.....won't matter for your build and I remember you mentioning a tar like build up on certain components, but I have wondered if the gearing..... pinion & rack and the straight cut tooth reduction gearing surfaces were run dry without any form of lubrication?

Were the smaller diameter straight cut tooth gears softer than the rack or the large gear? and hence easier and less costly to produce & replace

Any form of tar/pitch like lubricant in the teeth would have simply collected  gravel dust  :hammerbash:

Superb build and thread as usual.................(square drive :old: pinions & holes)...but then again this is turn of the Century machinery...........

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 30, 2018, 02:52:30 AM
That's exactly where it comes from! Crowding is increasing the pressure. Like a crowd of people, which is where I think the word comes from somewhere in the history of the English language.

I check this thread two or three times a day always knowing there will be some new and wonderful progress made..

 :popcorn: :popcorn: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Pete
Thanks Pete, that makes sense for why they call it that. Nice to have you along for the ride!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 30, 2018, 03:05:50 AM
Chris.....won't matter for your build and I remember you mentioning a tar like build up on certain components, but I have wondered if the gearing..... pinion & rack and the straight cut tooth reduction gearing surfaces were run dry without any form of lubrication?

Were the smaller diameter straight cut tooth gears softer than the rack or the large gear? and hence easier and less costly to produce & replace

Any form of tar/pitch like lubricant in the teeth would have simply collected  gravel dust  :hammerbash:

Superb build and thread as usual.................(square drive :old: pinions & holes)...but then again this is turn of the Century machinery...........

Derek
Hi Derek,


The tar buildup was the coating that they sprayed on the entire machine when they drove it out of the quarry and parked it in the field, now flaking off. It was not there when in use. It did save it for decades, but now that its cracking off needs to be stripped so it doesn't trap water.


From what I have read, they kept the bearings well greased, and the chain got a light oil to keep the inside of the links from grinding through. Don't know about the gears though. No sign of old grease in them, can still see grease in the edges if the bearings.  All are steel, seem to have worn evenly, but can't tell if any were replaced, though the ones in the longer gear trains would be tough to get at, and are quite large. The large ones I just made are about 5 feet in diameter, and show lots of wear.
In the marion catalogs they brag about the shipper shaft being square to avoid broken keys, though I think that the line shaft makers learned that round to square transitions were weak spots. Given how well these held up, must be good metalurgy. Marion made all their own steel, and apparently invented some new alloys. Would have been an amazing place to tour!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on March 30, 2018, 03:46:02 AM
Ah yes, round to square transitions in shafts. When shafts of that nature and period were made they were forged and the ends were upset on the end of the bar and no material was removed. The square and any collar were equal or larger than the bar/shaft.  When milling the square on the end was found to be cheaper than forging, the resulting sharp corners created stress risers that hadn't existed before. Hmmmmm. So there were a few failures. Engineering as usual...... :facepalm:

That link Simon posted really should be read by anyone interested in power shovel dynamics. It takes a common, simple, problem and shows how to optimize a shovel for particular conditions.

And the angular range they work with is within a 5* window... :o

Cool stuff.

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 30, 2018, 04:02:12 AM
Ah yes, round to square transitions in shafts. When shafts of that nature and period were made they were forged and the ends were upset on the end of the bar and no material was removed. The square and any collar were equal or larger than the bar/shaft.  When milling the square on the end was found to be cheaper than forging, the resulting sharp corners created stress risers that hadn't existed before. Hmmmmm. So there were a few failures. Engineering as usual...... :facepalm:

That link Simon posted really should be read by anyone interested in power shovel dynamics. It takes a common, simple, problem and shows how to optimize a shovel for particular conditions.

And the angular range they work with is within a 5* window... :o

Cool stuff.

Pete
So after the failures with sharp transitions, did they start radiusing the corners to reduce the problems? I can't tell from Marion's pictures since they are too small. They do say they did special hardening on the shafts, and the absence of keys makes it easier to change the gears on the shipper shaft. I noticed that thier other shafts are round with keyed gears.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on March 30, 2018, 05:53:32 AM
Book 'm Dano!!!

Those 'exposed' components were replaced frequently and the 'not so tightly' fitted squares were easy compared to the 'round with key' which, as you know, must be fitted nicely to be a reliable connection.

And that time period, 1890-1930, there were huge developments in iron and steel composition and manufacture. Just like today, any good thing would be adopted pretty quickly. Gotta keep up, ya know.

A hard steel bearing surface, properly finished, will wear almost forever in well lubricated Babbet so that was a feature that was very competitive.

Marion built a fine machine, and built their reputation on being an industry leader. You bet your bippy there was some serious, science based, engineering going on and improvements came frequently.

So, I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't a half dozen revisions in those parts over the years and that Marion kept them retro-fittable as long as possible. Why have a stack special parts when one or two fit most?

Bla bla bla

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on March 30, 2018, 05:56:12 AM
WAIT !!!!

Are the sides of the square parallel or is it a tapered square???? Not likely as it's harder to do. A straight sided square hole is easy...

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 30, 2018, 03:37:40 PM
WAIT !!!!

Are the sides of the square parallel or is it a tapered square???? Not likely as it's harder to do. A straight sided square hole is easy...

Pete
It looks like a parallel sided square section, though the corners are rounded in the square areas. Here is a page from one of the catalogs I have that talks about it:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/m0dxeu5tj/Page_037.jpg)
It would appear that they used a cross key or peg to keep the gears in position on the ends of the shaft, to prevent them sliding off.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on March 30, 2018, 05:37:00 PM
Hmmm, recreating that little setup would have been an interesting challenge for the elves, especially treating "to secure the greatest hardness and toughness"  :LittleDevil:

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 30, 2018, 05:44:24 PM
Hmmm, recreating that little setup would have been an interesting challenge for the elves, especially treating "to secure the greatest hardness and toughness"  :LittleDevil:

Fortunately these are shop elves, NOT marketoid-elves (ick!), spouting all the 'making it morer betterer' nonsense with made up words!!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 30, 2018, 10:32:04 PM
Made up the last few bits for the main boom this afternoon - the turnbuckles for holding the base into the saddle, and the eyebolts to hold the ends of the slewing chain. The turnbuckle ends were bent from some steel rod, the end overlapped back on the shank, and the end was sawn off at the same angle as the shank with a jewelers saw.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5qst8vtpj/IMG_2439.jpg)
After cutting, the end was bent down to lie against the shank, and then the joint was silver soldered, an extra blob of solder applied to blend it in.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4br8k5d6v/IMG_2443.jpg)
The two ends that go against the boom go through little plates, so those plates were inserted before soldering. Here are the parts, two turnbuckle end sets and the eyebolts. The eyebolts were left open for now, will be closed up after the chain has been inserted much later on in the build (need to have the frame, cab, gear trains, and winding drums made before I can thread the chains around).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xe5imz76f/IMG_2444.jpg)
The middle sections for the turnbuckles were made up out of a bit of brass bar stock and everything installed.
Now, I do not have a left-handed 2-56 tap and die set, so I made both ends of the turnbuckle with right hand threads. Obviously they will not tighten up by turning the middle section, so it will just take a little adjustment before final install to get the lenght right. The threaded section of the ends were left long for now, just in case the distance to the shackles on the turntable is any longer than designed. Shouldn't be, but better safe than sorry later.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/t50sksgrr/IMG_2445.jpg)
I think that finishes up the main boom for now. The crowd engine and its piping will be made later, and the upper stay braces can't be finished up till the A-frame is made. So, next step will be to start in on the turntable, with the saddle block base assembly up first.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/884kg9g7r/Turntable_Base_Casting.jpg)
Its a rather large part, too big for any metal bars I have on hand, so I went back to the 3D model and split the bodies into sections, with the main middle section being 1"x1", so I can make it from some 1" square brass bar that I have a length of. The section behind it with the angled notches is a hollow shell made from sheet metal, and the base plate it all sits on is 0.0625 plate. The curved section will be milled from some larger bar - that is what the bottom end of the boom sits against, like in this view:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/nvwhkh4x3/Main_Boom_Base.jpg)
Should be an interesting set to fabricate, probably will all be silver soldered together, which could be a challenge with the heavy block surrounded by thinner plates. May need some holding jigs for it, something to be worked out...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 30, 2018, 10:34:19 PM
After I looked again at that last rendering, realized there is one other last bit to make on the boom, the small pulley that the bucket door release rope threads through!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 31, 2018, 11:16:12 PM
This morning I got a start on the first piece of the turntable base saddle - once again, here is where it is going:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/884kg9g7r/Turntable_Base_Casting.jpg)
First part being made is the quarter-round section in the middle of that picture. I could have made it from some flat bar stock, but it would have meant doing a deep (the section is over 2" long") boring operation on the rotary table, as an interupted cut in a thin piece of metal, which I did not have confidence in doing without it flexing and ruining the part. After some noodling around in Fusion 3D to come up with a sequence that would result in the part without TOO much wasted stock (I have lots of brass round bar that I picked up cheap several years ago as drops), I came up with this sequence:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5dewplmdz/Base_Sequence.jpg)

So, I started with a 1-1/4" round bar of brass, turned one end to 1-1/16" to fit in my largest 5C collet, and bored the other end in the lathe, offset from center by 0.100" to leave room for the flat sections in the bar.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ng7zgpfmv/IMG_2446.jpg)
The line down the side was drawn on before removing it from the chuck, to mark the thin edge so it could be put closest to one side of the square collet holder. With the base held in the collet (the part stayed locked in the collet through all these steps) and the thin side up, took some passes with the mill down each side, halfway up the bored hole, till it just broke through the inside.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7uqnwrj47/IMG_2449.jpg)
Then the end of that section was hacksawn through next to the collet to release it.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qab4u5piv/IMG_2450.jpg)
The collet holder was turned over and the flat put in on the back side, milling down in stages till the flat was 0.062" from the center hole.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/h2iwdgxw7/IMG_2451.jpg)
Then the collet holder was turned 90 degrees, and that side milled off till it just went tangent to the center hole. That edge forms the bottom of the curve, where it will meet the base plate later.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/757vkey07/IMG_2452.jpg)
With those two flats done, then the collet holder was rotated 180 degrees in the vise, and the top edge milled off until it was 0.802" tall from there to the base flat.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5dewpimd3/IMG_2453.jpg)
Almost there - last milling in this sequence was to lower the cutter until it was halfway down the center hole, and mill the face back to form the vertical face. As each step in the sequence was done, I took lighter and lighter cuts since there was less support to the part, but there was no chatter or flexing.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/aotta93av/IMG_2454.jpg)
Here is another view of the part at that stage, with the holder removed from the vise:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/k9dfx4d7b/IMG_2455.jpg)
All that was left was to saw off the part and take a light pass on the end to take it to final length. Here it is sitting with the square block that it will be soldered to, next to the base of the main boom where it will be in the model:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/k9dfx45hj/IMG_2457.jpg)
Seems like a long way to go for a simple-looking part, but I'm not sure how else I could have made it with the equipment I have - the faceplate on the Sherline is not very good for this type of interrupted cut  boring, too much flex. It really did not take that long to do, but it probably is the lowest yield of part-to-raw-stock I've ever done!
Next up is a simple part, the main square block, just need to trim it to size and drill a big hole for the turntable pivot.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: J.L. on April 01, 2018, 01:31:08 PM
Hi Chris,

I wanted to show my wife the making of the brasss gears starting on page 63. I talked her through the process from the 1/4" x 4" brass disks as we scrolled down to you holding the gear in place. She was enthralled.

But then we came upon a little video of you operating the parts of the boom and bucket. What a treat.

You must be so pleased with the smooth operation of the parts made thus far. This is indeed a museum bound project. Perhaps I missed it, but the caretakers of the original machine rusting in the field must have approached you about having this completed model on permanent display.

Cheers...John
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 01, 2018, 03:02:09 PM
Hi Chris,

I wanted to show my wife the making of the brasss gears starting on page 63. I talked her through the process from the 1/4" x 4" brass disks as we scrolled down to you holding the gear in place. She was enthralled.

But then we came upon a little video of you operating the parts of the boom and bucket. What a treat.

You must be so pleased with the smooth operation of the parts made thus far. This is indeed a museum bound project. Perhaps I missed it, but the caretakers of the original machine rusting in the field must have approached you about having this completed model on permanent display.

Cheers...John

Thanks very much John!

It was both a treat and a big relief when the boom moved so well by turning the gears - one of those things where it SHOULD work, but there is always concern about things binding up.

The historical society does not really have a suitable place for the model (at least at this point), but I have definitely promised them the loan of it for any events they want to show it at. The parts so far will be shown at a fundraising meeting in about a month, along with a talk about it and the process. They may have a spot for it at some point - they run the Jello museum in an old house in LeRoy now - LeRoy is the original home of Jello!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 01, 2018, 03:05:39 PM
Well, it pays to have wacky friends! One just sent me this drawing for a fun Easter project.... Could make a steam powered bunny bean maker! Those of you with gardens will know what bunny beans are...

(https://s5.postimg.cc/x60faaikn/lepus-mechanica2_en.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on April 01, 2018, 04:59:59 PM
Don't think that can be right . . . I'm sure the Easter Bunny lays chocolate eggs  :LickLips:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 01, 2018, 07:22:12 PM
Don't think that can be right . . . I'm sure the Easter Bunny lays chocolate eggs  :LickLips:


Appearances can be deceiving!   :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 01, 2018, 08:43:18 PM
Today the large block in the center of the base assembly was milled down to size from some 1"x1" brass bar, and some 1/16" flat steel was cut to shape for the plate to form the bottom layer. I did not have any wide enough to do it in one piece, so there are two - you can just see the joint at about the 2-1/2" mark on the ruler in this photo, with the pieces set in place.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9yjx6wbfb/IMG_2459.jpg)
Having the back section a seperate piece worked out okay, since it gave a good way to make and attach the rear boxed in section. I cut some 1/16" flat stock  for the top/sides/back, and screwed them to some brass stock to hold them for silver soldering.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wn946fasn/IMG_2460.jpg)
There are two pieces of brass, one to hold the outer shell, the other smaller piece (so it wont get stuck on when soldered) to hold the back wall.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3xm89sm87/IMG_2461.jpg)
The brass parts were coated with some NicroBraze, which is a nifty substance that keeps the silver solder from running anywhere the NicroBraze is. Some people use WhiteOut for this, but it can form a really hard glass layer that is hard to remove, where the NicroBraze will come off with the pickling/brushing step. So, with that on and dried, everything was screwed together and silver soldered. As you can see, the brass parts and the screws came right out.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ex7fle4xj/IMG_2463.jpg)
After a pickle soak and some wire brushing, the section where the brass plates were was sawn off.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/itkrheks7/IMG_2464.jpg)
A quick couple passes on the mill and some filing, the sawn faces of the parts were smoothed out and test fit with the other blocks in the assembly:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xcrwit67b/IMG_2465.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/o4zo23rfb/IMG_2466.jpg)
Now it will be clamped up and hole drilled/tapped to join the pieces from underneath with some countersunk screws and some loctite for good measure. Still need to attach the lugs on the side for the braces up to the turntable floor plates, and bore the center hole for the pivot.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 01, 2018, 11:55:38 PM
I'm still watching Chris.
Haven't said much...maybe I'm getting bored.

Not!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 02, 2018, 12:07:36 AM
I'm still watching Chris.
Haven't said much...maybe I'm getting bored.

Not!
:cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on April 02, 2018, 02:00:21 AM
Chris--I'm assuming that you are related to the Rockafellers, or else have your own private brass mine. The price of brass has got scary here in Ontario. I did a little research trying to find why it was so expensive, and found that it seems the existing copper mines in the world are running out of copper, and no new copper deposits have been discovered, and that is whats driving the cost of brass so high.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 02, 2018, 02:34:24 AM
Chris--I'm assuming that you are related to the Rockafellers, or else have your own private brass mine. The price of brass has got scary here in Ontario. I did a little research trying to find why it was so expensive, and found that it seems the existing copper mines in the world are running out of copper, and no new copper deposits have been discovered, and that is whats driving the cost of brass so high.

Not the Rockafellers, more like those SillyFellersOverThere!   :Lol:

I don't usually buy bar stock just for an engine at the moment, over the years I've haunted the commercial suppliers like Yarde Metals, who have a section called the 'Drop Zone' on their website where they sell large bar stock in 3 or 4 foot lengths as offcuts from their normal sales to factories. It is usually up to 1/2 off normal prices - it was even better till last year when they fixed their shipping calculator - they were charging like $5 or $10 for an order, even if it was 60 or 70 pounds and shipped in 6 different tubes from 3 different warehouses! Was great for getting the larger stock I am using, like the 1" square bar, 2-1/2" round bar, 1/2"x6" flat stock even, that stuff was dirt cheap. Once, before SmallParts got bought by Amazon, they were closing out stock and I got bundles of brass rod up to 1/2" diameter, 3' long, a buck each. Bought em out. Check with the commercial suppliers, local or on the web, they often will sell offcuts dirt cheap to clear the bin - you have to ask, not usually on the normal website, though Yarde is one exception to that. Other places, like OnlineMetals, have reasonable prices usually, but the shipping can be a killer - I am on the email list for places like that, a couple times a year they have big sales, sometimes with shipping cuts, and I'll stock up on things I use a lot of. Other times, when I just need a couple small sizes, places like McMaster are handy, they ship out of Syracuse (next city over from Rochester), so it shows up next day.
Anyway, I tend to stock up on bar stock on sales, in larger sizes/longer lengths, and use it for the next several models. Also, with the articles in Live Steam on the Lombard (and whatever follows), my supplies are being funded by those payments, which is nice when living on a pension!

Wow - that was a long reply! Anyway, short version: buy it when its cheap, not when you need it the next day.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on April 02, 2018, 04:33:53 AM
Hi Chris , good work there and i have a lot of stock metals from car boot sales,  Traction engine rallies and also for short bits from the gear cutting firm that is quite close,  they always have shortish

 offcuts in a range of materials ....

Willy
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steam Haulage on April 02, 2018, 09:46:22 AM
Chris
I am intrigued by yout mention of Nicobraze, do you mean one of theri 'stop-off' grades?
Jerry
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 02, 2018, 02:41:31 PM
Chris
I am intrigued by yout mention of Nicobraze, do you mean one of theri 'stop-off' grades?
Jerry
Yes - I am using the 'Green' stop-off version, the general purpose one. Here is where I happened to pick it up:

http://www.carbideprocessors.com/nicrobraz-green-stop-off-pen/

Someone on another thread a year or two back mentioned it, and I got some, works quite well. When I remember I have it before soldering, that is!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 02, 2018, 02:49:56 PM
This morning got the holes for the screws to hold all the pieces together drilled/tapped, and the main pivot hole bored into the base.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4grs2ma1z/IMG_2467.jpg)
This hole is the center of the turntable that the main boom sits on. The pivot it sits on has a large hole through the center that the hoist chain comes up through, so that it does not change length as the boom swings. There is another of the chain sheaves lined up underneath on the frame rails to redirect the chain back to the winding drum in the cab.
All the mating surfaces of the parts were given a coat of Loctite retaining compound, screwed together and left to set. While waiting for that, I'll start making the lugs that will go on either side for the braces up to the swing plate on top. The countersunk screw heads holding things together from underneath will be filed off flush.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qfy6ptylz/IMG_2468.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 02, 2018, 06:16:59 PM
Hi Chris, The HCEA has masses of detailed information in their archive. Which includes the 'Marion PowerShovel Company Archive'.
Being a few thousand miles away I'm not in a position to visit their Museum for myself but from whatI hear you may be able to find the detail you need. There might even be a member who has the information.  A recent article in 'Equipment Echoes' magazine by Don Franz the editor, whose father had been a craneman on the Marion 91 Panama shovel in the France quarry in Waterville Ohio.
The HCEA phone is(419)352-5616. Perhaps a call might be worthwhile?
Jerry
I have been through the listings of those archives, for the early years it appears that what they have are patent documents and sales brochures and such, all in very poor condition (dirty, brittle) waiting to be photocopied. For the early years, does not sound like they have much I have not seen elsewhere. The Marion County historical society got the other half of the old company documents. I've been in touch with them a few times, things are not organized but I may stop in there on my way out to Indiana this summer and see what I can find. Both places got boxes of documents when the company was shut down in the 90s by Bucyrus - by then, as in many old companies, early records were mostly missing as irrelevant to current operations. Same thing happened at Kodak - we had a museum room full of old cameras and products, and during the bankruptcy shutdown of the camera division, they were just giving the stuff away to anyone interested in a souvineer! For companies like Marion, every time they went through a building move, merger, or buyout, truckloads of stuff would be tossed that we would kill for today!
Update on this - I have been corresponding with the HCEA, and got in touch with the man there (Tom) who I think runs the archive portion - turns out I was wrong, they have LOTS more than what is cataloged online yet, including records of the early machine sales. So, back on that as a info source, seeing if I can arrange a research visit this August, stopping in on my trip to Indiana - Bowling Green Ohio is not that far out of the way for my drive, well worth a day or so to stop in. More info to come....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 02, 2018, 07:31:48 PM
Finishing up on the base unit, milled some brass down to form the strut lugs, using the fixture plate on the rotary table again to round the ends and take the sides to width. Both were done in one piece so there was an easy way to bolt them to the table.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rwjcimf5z/IMG_2469.jpg)
After sawing them apart, a round post was turned into the base to give a way to mount them - the slot that will go in the end is too narrow to get a bolt in, so they will be cross drilled through the baseplate and held with a screw that way.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kgk2wtc13/IMG_2470.jpg)
The slot was cut using a jewelers saw down each side and across the bottom, finished off with a file.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xxh1fp9hz/IMG_2473.jpg)
Here is the base unit all assembled - once the loctite has had a chance to set up well I'll file off the countersunk screwheads in the bottom flush with the base plate.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4v2rcvuxz/IMG_2475.jpg)
Next up is to start the framework that goes around the top of this unit that holds the swing circle plates (the turntable surface)...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 03, 2018, 12:56:43 AM
More on the swing circle (what I've been calling the turntable, trying to use the terms they did), which will sit on top of the saddle assembly just made. They attach to each other with some heavy angle-iron pieces. I have some smaller brass angle stock, but nothing this size, so I figured it was time to see if I could make some from flat steel stock. I cut some strips a bit longer than needed and clamped them at the ends for silver soldering. The extra length worked out well, as I suspected the clamps acted as heat sinks and the stock would not get hot enough to melt the solder at the ends. Here are the two side bars needed, plus another shorter one that will become some angled braces:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mitr2p1o7/IMG_2476.jpg)
Not the neatest solder job, but it is well joined, and the paint will hide the color change on the surface!   O:-)

Just cut the surface plates from the offcuts of flat stock used on the main boom - cut with a saber saw and smoothed the edges on the grinder. Here is how they will go together (bottom view)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/yxgj310w7/IMG_2477.jpg)
The three plates will be riveted to the angle stock, which bolt to the base assembly. On the top, there is a cross beam, plus the rounded angle rim that the chain wraps around - that will be a interesting one to solder up. First need to bore the large holes in the plates.

Here are some pictures of what it will all look like (minus the boots, weeds, dirt, etc!)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rwsja0twn/DSC_6323.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/lvuucyf07/DSC_6557.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steam Haulage on April 03, 2018, 08:04:14 AM
Glad you're getting some joy with the HCEA,
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 03, 2018, 03:33:29 PM
More on the swing circle parts - laid out the holes in the plates and first cut the large hole in the rear plate:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/svr9vkiuv/IMG_2478.jpg)
The clamped the two side plates together and bored the three holes in it together, so they would match:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/54rwdgqdj/IMG_2480.jpg)
The smaller hole in the middle will be used for the shackle which holds the turnbuckles at the base of the main boom. The other larger holes are for an unknown reason - for slings when lifting the assembly on and off?
Here are the plates so far:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/q1o4i4w47/IMG_2481.jpg)
There is still a narrow slot to cut in the two side plates to take the angle brace up from the base - going to cut that later once the base is fitted to the plates, just in case it needs some adjustment in position. I think the next step will be to fit the angle iron pieces to the plates and base.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 03, 2018, 10:31:19 PM
This afternoon I got the angle-iron strips bolted to the sides of the base, and started fitting the top plates. The side ones were lined up and clamped to the strips, then drilled and riveted on. Then clamped the rear plate on and did the same.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/njgpt4ptz/IMG_2482.jpg)
Here are the parts so far. Note the hole in the right end of the vertical angle strip, a rod gets bolted across there to help brace the open end of the circle, and there is also a pair of braces that run from that end down to the base piece.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/d9eatw7o7/IMG_2483.jpg)
The rivets at the outside ends were left off for now, they will be done with the outer circle plates that hold the swing chain around the edge of the circle. Also, note that there are three rivets left out in the center - there will be a box beam across the middle, where the ruler is set in this photo:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5gnn1xh4n/IMG_2487.jpg)
Also, still need to trim off the angle strips at the back end:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/a2jra9uxz/IMG_2486.jpg)
Coming together pretty well, starting to look like the final assembly.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on April 04, 2018, 12:10:27 PM
Hi Chris,
 Just sent off for ANOTHER truck load  :popcornsmall:

At this rate you should be digging snow come THIS Christmas !!!!.......the shovel clearing a path for the Lombard pulling a load of Xmas trees.......with a bunch of elves yahooing on top!

Great work Chris!

Zee.....you reading this thread???.....now you are unemployed ...... :stickpoke: or has T got the list of jobs out now the weather is improving your side of the globe, I feel your pain!!  :lolb:

Cheers Kerrin

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 04, 2018, 12:29:44 PM
Hi Chris,
 Just sent off for ANOTHER truck load  :popcornsmall:

At this rate you should be digging snow come THIS Christmas !!!!.......the shovel clearing a path for the Lombard pulling a load of Xmas trees.......with a bunch of elves yahooing on top!

Great work Chris!

Zee.....you reading this thread???.....now you are unemployed ...... :stickpoke: or has T got the list of jobs out now the weather is improving your side of the globe, I feel your pain!!  :lolb:

Cheers Kerrin
Wish I had the drawing talent to paint that scene!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 05, 2018, 07:49:54 PM
Well, after most of a couple days dealing with wind storm caused power outages at mine and my mother's houses (local utility company is now owned by some overseas conglomerate, they outsource all the repair work to idiots,  :Mad: :cussing: :rant: who kept closing out the repair tickets when they fixed a nearby block, never got near her house), back in the shop again.

So, got more done on the swing circle, fitted and riveted on the seam doublers where the main plates butt up to each other:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fqcqfgwp3/IMG_2488.jpg)
Again, leaving the outer rivets off for now, till the upper plates for the chain guides are on,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/yvfzp8qsn/IMG_2489.jpg)
and also the angled brace and crossbar that goes on the front:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6vbw4yfmf/IMG_2490.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/z87dvfw7r/IMG_2491.jpg)
Then its time to make the chain guide which runs around the outside of the swing circle:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/lvuucyf07/DSC_6557.jpg)
It is made up of a series of horizontal plates and a single curved vertical plate. Still not sure how I am going to hold the vertical plate in place for silver soldering - want to do the vert/horiz plates together, then rivet that assembly in place, since clamping it all to the main circle would make for a huge heat sink - need to whip up some kind of holding jig. Anyway, rought cut out the segments of the horizontal plates, and drilled the stack for locating pins to repeatably be able to clamp them to the tolling plate for milling the arcs, outside
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4e04xpb5j/IMG_2493.jpg)
and inside
(https://s5.postimg.cc/a26fom2nb/IMG_2495.jpg)
Here is the first one set on the circle to show where they go - they overlap the circle slightly on the outside edge. once all the arcs are milled, I'll cut the ends to all aim at the center of the circle.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gsmwy1adj/IMG_2496.jpg)