Model Engine Maker

Engines => Your Own Design => Topic started by: michelko on February 02, 2017, 01:35:03 PM

Title: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 02, 2017, 01:35:03 PM
Hello,
like promised i start a build thread about my Bugatti Project.
It is based on the Pocher model of this Engine that i bought as Young man.
As far as i can remember i startetd with the planning in 2005 and made the first Chips in 2009.
The cas is made from Aluminium and all scratch build. No castings were used.
the only parts that were bought are the Rolerbearings, screws, Valvesprings an screws.

Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 02, 2017, 01:37:49 PM
Here is the cylinderblock with intermediat plate an the bearing holders of the crankshaft. All parts are screwed together with M3 screws

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on February 02, 2017, 01:44:23 PM
Thank you Michael. I will be following this with great interest

Mike
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 03, 2017, 09:51:26 AM
Hi guys,
here are some Pictures of the cam grinding machine. A friend of mine is also Building model engines and he lend me his machine.
You can see some blanks, some ready cams and some Details of the machine.
The template is from brass and is milled on a Rotary table.


Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 03, 2017, 09:55:43 AM
Here is the oilpan/housing. Ist made of Aluminium plates that were soldered together. Iam a Little unhappy with the result because the soldering has a different colour then the alu.
If i would build it again i will weld the case together instead of soldering.
Two wterjackets are machined at this state. six to go.
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 03, 2017, 10:02:28 AM
next Pictures are from june 2012, we bought a haouse and this took some time that was missing for Building the Bugatti.

YOu can see my mill, it is cnc fitted and controlled by linuxcnc.

Here i am machining the cylinder head.

Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 03, 2017, 10:06:39 AM
some more machining on the head

Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 03, 2017, 10:15:27 AM
August 2012
cylinder head ready, Fitting the bearing blocks for the camshafts. They are made of brass.
pressed in liner for the cam Followers.
The Followers shown here are dummys, the real ones will have a pocket to fit a shim for lash adjustment.
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Nick_G on February 03, 2017, 10:45:28 AM
.
Awsomely awesome of awesomeness.  :ThumbsUp: :)

Nick
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: steamer on February 03, 2017, 11:17:07 AM
Oh keep them coming!    I like the camshaft and tappets work, can you show me the rest of the valve cage?

Dave
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 03, 2017, 11:18:22 AM
What Nick said. Awesome.

I'd never heard of a cam grinding machine. Time for a little googling.

Wonderful pictures!
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: stevehuckss396 on February 03, 2017, 11:41:42 AM
Beautiful work shown so for. Keep the pix coming.
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: ShopShoe on February 03, 2017, 02:25:14 PM
michelko,

That's amazing. I really like the way this build progresses.

Thank you for posting

ShopShoe
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: ozzie46 on February 03, 2017, 02:46:23 PM
Great stuff. What was the solder you used to solder the engine block together?

Ron
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 03, 2017, 05:57:01 PM
Hi guys, thanks for the kind words.
I will post the pictures in chronoligical order. The engine itself is ready so far. Last two pieces that i have to build is the water pump and the blower. The blower will be a dummy. I am planning to fit the engine with a injection system like keith did.
The injector will be fittet in the blower housing.

At the moment i am working on the ignition system. Engine runs but not stable because of heavy noise in the rpm signal.

ie0gc5bpFOY
Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: 90LX_Notch on February 03, 2017, 06:13:54 PM
Great stuff Michael!  I love four cycle builds.

-Bob
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: fumopuc on February 03, 2017, 07:09:27 PM
Hi Michael, very impressive. Is it right that you have incressed the stiffness of your mill by an additional frame around the column ?
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 03, 2017, 07:40:36 PM
Hi Michael, very impressive. Is it right that you have incressed the stiffness of your mill by an additional frame around the column ?

Yes thats right. This was a lasercut set from heinz auracher its called hüfthalter.
At this pictures i testfitted the parts. Menwhile the parts are scewed to the column, welded together and painted.

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 03, 2017, 07:43:19 PM
As delivered
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: keith5700 on February 03, 2017, 09:10:21 PM
Michael, which ecu are you using?
How long are your ht leads?
Have you got any resistive wire in your ht lead runs?
Are you losing comms with Tunerstudio at any time?
Have you done a live display of the trigger wheel whilst running, or trying to run?
Are you using coil packs with wasted spark, or individual coils and running full sequential spark?
What's the spark advance when starting and at low rpm?
Have you ran it in the dark to look for leaking ht sparking?
What spark plugs are you using?
Sorry if I've missed any of this info in the thread.
Keith.
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Roger B on February 04, 2017, 07:39:29 AM
An excellent build  :praise2:  :praise2: I will be following along  :wine1:

What are you using for fuel feed at the moment, a carburettor?
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 04, 2017, 02:50:10 PM
Michael, which ecu are you using?
How long are your ht leads?
Have you got any resistive wire in your ht lead runs?
Are you losing comms with Tunerstudio at any time?
Have you done a live display of the trigger wheel whilst running, or trying to run?
Are you using coil packs with wasted spark, or individual coils and running full sequential spark?
What's the spark advance when starting and at low rpm?
Have you ran it in the dark to look for leaking ht sparking?
What spark plugs are you using?
Sorry if I've missed any of this info in the thread.
Keith.
Hello keith thanks for your reply.
i am using a arduino based ecu called speeduino
Ht leads are ca. 60cm
Added 4,7kohm resistror in every ht lead, since that no more connection loss or freezing
Yes, the signal is clean and nice until i conect the coil paks to 12 v
I am using a hallsensor with magnets as mising tooth 12-1
Two vag Coil paks in wasted spark mode
Tried several advance settings but the problem are these awsome rpm spikes so it definetifly a noise porblem
Ran in the dark and no leaking visible
with the sparks besides the engine->spikes in the rpm signal
Spark plugs are self made steel body corian isolater
Will post some pics of the parts later

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 04, 2017, 05:47:31 PM
So here are the pics
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 04, 2017, 05:54:53 PM
An excellent build  :praise2:  :praise2: I will be following along  :wine1:

What are you using for fuel feed at the moment, a carburettor?

Yes at the moment, later it should run on injection similar to keiths setup.
I will hide the injector in the blower housing.
Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on February 04, 2017, 06:22:26 PM
Just look at that hand scraping (frosting) on the cam boxes. Beautiful.

Please can you tell us what type of solder you used to fabricate the lower crankcase and sump?

Fantastic workmanship

Mike
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: fumopuc on February 04, 2017, 07:41:15 PM
Hi Michael, very impressive. Is it right that you have incressed the stiffness of your mill by an additional frame around the column ?

Yes thats right. This was a lasercut set from heinz auracher its called hüfthalter.
At this pictures i testfitted the parts. Menwhile the parts are scewed to the column, welded together and painted.

Michael


I have heard already about this Hüfthalter for the BF20 mill, seams to be really heavy stuff.
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Roger B on February 04, 2017, 08:06:44 PM
Looking at your ignition set up I have a couple of quick comments:

I think you need some good ground connections (braids) between the metal bodies of the vag ignition modules and the engine block.

Can you connect the resistor ends of the ignition leads directly to the ignition modules without the additional lengths of wire with crocodile clips.

Both of these steps should significantly reduce the interference.
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 04, 2017, 08:40:52 PM
Looking at your ignition set up I have a couple of quick comments:

I think you need some good ground connections (braids) between the metal bodies of the vag ignition modules and the engine block.

Can you connect the resistor ends of the ignition leads directly to the ignition modules without the additional lengths of wire with crocodile clips.

Both of these steps should significantly reduce the interference.

I will try this

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Admiral_dk on February 05, 2017, 12:32:59 AM
I would ground the screen on the "sensor" (Hall-Effect) to the engine block as close to the sensor as possible - right now you got a lot of induction noise on their wires from the high tension side of the ignition.

This connection does not pose any problems since you are using dual output coils (normal for wasted spark on two cylinders sharing a coil), as they aren't connected to ground (except through the sparkplugs). On a distributed system, you got a much more complicated grounding system / problem, when using Hall-Effect sensors.

Best wishes and hoping that you soon solve the problem and get your beautiful engine running as it should.

Mit Freundliche Grüße

Per
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Art K on February 05, 2017, 01:31:03 AM
Michael,
Thanks for doing the dedicated build. Your workmanship is quite impressive. I liked the water jacket around the spark plug counter bore. Sorry I can't add anything to the electrical problems.
Art
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 05, 2017, 07:59:57 AM
Found some information in the megasquirt manual about ls1 chevy coils, wil give this also a try.
Orderd some caps.

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: keith5700 on February 05, 2017, 08:51:14 AM
Michael, please bear in mind I'm not an expert on this, I just know what worked for me.
Roger is on the right track. I tried resistors but had no luck. I ended up with carbon resistive leads with just a short bit of 'scale size' ht wire at the engine end. At least 10kohm of wire. The plain wire needs to be as short as poss.

Then you need to sort out the earths. Everything needs earthing to the same point, either the battery or the block. The block worked better for me. Just run a thick cable from battery to block, and then earth everything else to the block.

I used screened cable for all the sensors, and earthed the screen to the Megasquirt case only, leave the other end free.

If you have no comms issues the that's great. I had to use a Bluetooth connection to get it to work.

Are you using Tunerstudio to run it?if so you should have a 'lost sync' logger which tells you how many times the trigger loses itself. Whenever the engine stumbles you can see the losing sync episodes piling up.
I used to get loads till I sorted the ht leads out. Now I just get a few now and again.

If you do what Per said and earth the hall sensor screen to the block then make sure the other end of the screen isn't earthed to anything.

Good luck, Keith.
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 05, 2017, 09:38:21 AM
Hi keith many thanks for the input.
Now i have some points to test. The hall sensor cable screen ist conectet to eartg at ecu like you mentioned.
But will giv pers Suggestion  a try.
Will keep you informed

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 05, 2017, 09:53:49 AM
Hi gys besides the ignition Problems i will kep on posting pics from the manufactoring process.
so here we go:

November 2012
did the angled gear for the Distributor. At first the plan was using a sigle coil and a conventional dizzy.
But later i decided to go go a more modern way with wastetd spark Coils.
I was afraid about the small distances in the dizzy cap.

I also did the Valve covers
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 05, 2017, 09:57:24 AM
December 2012 i startet the engine holders.

some pics from machining and the ready pieces. This is a multiple side machining.
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 05, 2017, 10:04:48 AM
2013 i was a Little lazy with the buuild so next parts start Decenber 2013

here i am working on the crankshaft. it is pressed together an uses roler bearing at the main and needle bearing at the rods.

One half is machined to spec the second half has left som 10th over to machie it ready after pressing together.

Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 05, 2017, 10:08:39 AM
january 2014 i made the lower pulley for the cooling fan.
at the first time i planned to use a o-ring as belt but fortunatly i sorced a small angelt belt that look more scale
the belts are called 3m wide angeld belts
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 05, 2017, 10:12:24 AM
february 2014 i worked on the dizzy. the cap is made from Hartgewebe donīt know the english Expression for this. maybee you know the Name pertinax itīs the same sort  plastic baut different filler.
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 05, 2017, 10:17:21 AM
july 2014 the crank was ready. i was realy happy withe result. turned nearly free with only very small binding.
that went away after some turning the crank with an elektric drill

and a short Video

MpeRT1UJEnE
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on February 05, 2017, 02:35:00 PM
Hello Michel,

I am following the build of your Bugatti project with great interest. I am full of admiration for your workmanship.

You have reached the part which is of great interest to me. I have been waiting to see how you would built the Crankshaft.

So you are using roller bearings and needle rollers in the same way as the original engine. I can see that you have assembled the crankshaft by pressing together the individual sections. Please explain how you achieved the perfect alignment between each section while it was being pressed together. There must be at least 16 sections that need to be in perfect alignment. I congratulate you on the achievement.

With an interference fit of a 10th, I don't think you can press a section apart or twist it to make corrections. I expect you do not get a second chance, the alignment must be perfect the first time. Please can you explain how you achieved this engineering miracle. Do you have photos for the fixtures and fittings you used and also the press you used.

I can see four holes in the centre of each crank web. Is this a clue to how you achieved the alignment? It would help me tremendously with my engine if you could provide additional detail of how you assembled your crankshaft. My Mercedes engine also has roller bearing mains and con-rods.

Thank you for sharing this excellent build with us. I wish I could help you with the ignition problem, however you are getting some very useful advice from the other MEM members. They must be some of the most knowledgeable miniature engine builders in the world. You are in safe hands

Thank you

Mike
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: steamer on February 05, 2017, 02:50:40 PM
I too am very interested in this solution.   The 917 12 lurks in the engineering phase, but I could be persuaded to go that way .....hmmmmm

Dave
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 05, 2017, 04:10:13 PM
Hi guys,
today i did some Research on the ignition and then i decide to test the System with motorcycle plugs.
These are with build in resistors with 4,7 kOhm.
Conectet the coilpaks with my wonderfull crocodile wires andf cranked the Bugatti.
Guess what..... Rocksolid rpm Signal. Not one single spike in the log.
Maybee it does matter where the resistor is located?

i added a resistor with 4,7kOhm in my sparkwires with not the expected effect.


QC7PcWh0OiE

Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 05, 2017, 04:21:56 PM
Hello Michel,

I am following the build of your Bugatti project with great interest. I am full of admiration for your workmanship.

You have reached the part which is of great interest to me. I have been waiting to see how you would built the Crankshaft.

So you are using roller bearings and needle rollers in the same way as the original engine. I can see that you have assembled the crankshaft by pressing together the individual sections. Please explain how you achieved the perfect alignment between each section while it was being pressed together. There must be at least 16 sections that need to be in perfect alignment. I congratulate you on the achievement.

With an interference fit of a 10th, I don't think you can press a section apart or twist it to make corrections. I expect you do not get a second chance, the alignment must be perfect the first time. Please can you explain how you achieved this engineering miracle. Do you have photos for the fixtures and fittings you used and also the press you used.

I can see four holes in the centre of each crank web. Is this a clue to how you achieved the alignment? It would help me tremendously with my engine if you could provide additional detail of how you assembled your crankshaft. My Mercedes engine also has roller bearing mains and con-rods.

Thank you for sharing this excellent build with us. I wish I could help you with the ignition problem, however you are getting some very useful advice from the other MEM members. They must be some of the most knowledgeable miniature engine builders in the world. You are in safe hands

Thank you

Mike

Hi Mike,
there is no big secret behind. As i wrote above i machined one disk completely ready to the specs, the other side was machined with 5/10 mm additional Diameter.
Then i pressed in the crankpin into the ready machined part. took this Setup in the lathe chuck and the other side disk into the tailstock.
Alligned the two picec and slightly stuck them toger, just enough that they dont fall appart. Took These assembly added some Loctite 648 into the bore and then pressed the parts together with the mill vise.
last step was take the whole part again into the lathe chuck, check runout and then turn the second disk to secs.
Unfortunatly i didnīt took Pictures of this process or they are lost. Donīt know.

I hope this discription helps you. If you Need more Information please ask.

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on February 05, 2017, 05:24:16 PM
Hello Michael

Thank you for your reply, The information is very helpful for my Mercedes engine project.

I mistakenly thought you made the discs with an interference press fit, It appears you have bonded (glued) them together with Loctite 648. Is this correct?

Am I correct to think you make the second disc with a 5/10 oversize bore to give some small clearance for the Loctite 648 ?.

I am sorry Michael, but I did not understand what you meant by "check runout and then turn the second disk to secs."

After your press the two discs together in the vise, do you return the parts to the lathe to check the runout of the two parts and twist the two parts to correct any misalignment. How much time do you have to correct any misalignment before the Loctite starts to harden?

What is the diameter and width of the Loctite joint? and how wide are the discs?

Sorry to have so many questions. You will understand,  it is important for me to correctly understand the process of assembling a straight crankshaft

Thank You

Mike
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Roger B on February 05, 2017, 06:05:28 PM
I think that the difference when you carried out your test with the resistor plugs was that they were not grounded to the engine block but to the ignition modules, hence the possible requirement to have a good ground between the modules and the engine block.
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 05, 2017, 06:10:23 PM
I think that the difference when you carried out your test with the resistor plugs was that they were not grounded to the engine block but to the ignition modules, hence the possible requirement to have a good ground between the modules and the engine block.

Hm.... then i will hold the big plugs to the housing and test again. Lets see

Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 05, 2017, 06:26:17 PM
Hello Michael

Thank you for your reply, The information is very helpful for my Mercedes engine project.

I mistakenly thought you made the discs with an interference press fit, It appears you have bonded (glued) them together with Loctite 648. Is this correct?

Am I correct to think you make the second disc with a 5/10 oversize bore to give some small clearance for the Loctite 648 ?.

I am sorry Michael, but I did not understand what you meant by "check runout and then turn the second disk to secs."

After your press the two discs together in the vise, do you return the parts to the lathe to check the runout of the two parts and twist the two parts to correct any misalignment. How much time do you have to correct any misalignment before the Loctite starts to harden?

What is the diameter and width of the Loctite joint? and how wide are the discs?

Sorry to have so many questions. You will understand,  it is important for me to correctly understand the process of assembling a straight crankshaft

Thank You

Mike
hi mike my english is a little rusty because of rare usage, sorry. So i try to describe it a bit better.
The hole for the crank pin is made 0,03mm smaler then the pin, so its a press fit. The loctite is used for my peace in mind.
As written above one disk is manufactured to specs, outside dia, bearing seat dia, etc. The second one all diameters left over 0,5mm bigger.
Since i have used the three jaw chuck you can see some runout if you put the piece again in. To achieve the least runout of the ready turned side i tried different positions.
After pressing i didn try to twist the parts but  i turned the oversiced part to spec. So i was able to keep the runout between left and right disk at 1 or 2 /100mm.
This loctite is some awesome stuff. When i glued the cams to shaft i noticed an error just after slip the cam on. 5 seconds later it was not moveable so i had to heat the stup to 200 celsius to loosen up the loctite.

Lets see maybe i can do some pics tomorow with some left over pieces  to show you the way i did it

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: steamer on February 05, 2017, 06:32:08 PM
Ahhhh    I get it Michael!    Good piece of sideways thinking there! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Dave
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on February 05, 2017, 07:08:24 PM
Hello Michael

Thank you for your patience. I now understand how you did it.

Thanks again

Mike
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 05, 2017, 07:22:30 PM
I think that the difference when you carried out your test with the resistor plugs was that they were not grounded to the engine block but to the ignition modules, hence the possible requirement to have a good ground between the modules and the engine block.

Hm.... then i will hold the big plugs to the housing and test again. Lets see
So i did some quick and dirty experimentation.
Hold the plugs to the housing, no spikes in rpm signal,  all fine.
So i decided tu turn my wires so that the rsistor is at the plug side.
Seems that this did it. Because its late i didnt start it but the log looks nice.
Will try it tomorow.

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Admiral_dk on February 05, 2017, 09:51:56 PM
I meant what I wrote earlier. Your ignition system does not need a ground connection between the sensor, box, ignition coil and the engine block for it to work if you use normal dual output ignition coils like the ones found on twin / 4 cylinder motorcycles - BUT it will need the grounding between the box and the engine block when you use a Hall-effect as the sensor, to make sure you don't get magnetic induced interference and the best way is to connect the screen on both ends of the sensor cable.

If you electric system contains more than the ignition - like Keiths V10 - you get a multi ground system (I know there in principal only is one, but for this to behave like you think, there can be no current flowing through it) and then you really need to do things right - in this case Keith is right about connecting the screen on one end only. This also applies to distributed ignition systems where the "switch" (MOSFET, IGBT, etc.) has it's own connection directly to the battery, not shared by the rest of the ignition box in almost all systems I had seen or as done today, with the ignition coil directly at the plug with the switch connected directly to the battery and a signal wire from the box (ECU).

This is also the reason I newer understood why anybody wants to use a Hall-Effect as the sensor in any motor vehicle  :o

The reluctor coils is much more stable, can endure much higher temperatures, withstand gasoline etc. and requires no power to work, the signal is balanced and therefore almost completely immune to interference from the rest of the electric system in the vehicle and cheaper too - and that's why I never saw a Hall-Effect sensor on a motorcycle but numerous reluctor coils over the years as the pick-up for ignition, fuel injection etc.

The ignition system can be a very complex system - or a simple one - but the moment you include Hall-Effect sensors, the simple disappears from the equation. In most cases this can still be simple if you follow the manufactures instruction to the letter (they have blown many of their own design and knows what not to do) - but if you design your own, you will have to learn and often the hard way.

Best wishes

Per
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: keith5700 on February 05, 2017, 11:15:57 PM
Michael, bear in mind also that it's dead easy to fire plugs at atmospheric pressure.  It's when you get them under higher pressure that all the fun starts. That's why I made the small Perspex pressure chamber for my plugs, which was extremely enlightening. Trying to get the plugs to fire at 80 psi is a different ball game. All sorts of tracking and internal leaking starts going on.
Anyway, hopefully you've sorted it now?
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: racinjason on February 06, 2017, 06:13:05 AM
 Per,

"to make sure you don't get magnetic induced interference and the best way is to connect the screen on both ends of the sensor cable."

You should only ground the shield at one end, if its grounded at both ends it can act as a conductor and induce voltages into the conductors its protecting.
  Cheers Jason
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 06, 2017, 08:58:24 PM
Tried to start today but something went bad. Cant get any ignition. Searched a while and then i noticed one chanel isn't firing.
When i hook up im stimulater all coils are firing :shrug: :shrug:
Then i did a tooth log with tunerstudio and i could see that the missing tooth is missing. I want to say that all spikes are nearly the same hight. What could have caused this? I am realy frustrated at the moment.
When i retrofitted my clasic car with an megasquirt i had not near as much troble like here.

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Admiral_dk on February 06, 2017, 09:55:15 PM
Quote
You should only ground the shield at one end, if its grounded at both ends it can act as a conductor and induce voltages into the conductors its protecting.

Sorry but, your statement is only true if you create a ground-loop by doing so, and I pointed out that the only ground connection between the box and the engine block would / should be the screen in the simple system as there is absolutely no ground connection on the high-tension side of the system + (almost) none of our systems use the battery for anything other than the box.

And I did point out that this only applies to the systems with waste fire.

You can use a separate ground wire and only connect the screen in one end, but you will lose between 10 and 20 dB noise reduction from what I recommend (depending on frequency).
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: keith5700 on February 06, 2017, 10:11:11 PM
Michael, are you on tooth log or trigger log? What do you get when you're in trigger log?
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 07, 2017, 08:26:48 AM
Hello Michael

Thank you for your patience. I now understand how you did it.

Thanks again

Mike

I am happy if i can help thank you.
As promised  here are some pics how i adjustet the disks on the lathe.
One side in the chuck one sidein the tailstock. Crank pin complete pressed in in one side. after aligning slightly pressed the pieces together, only enough they hold till they are moved to the vise. Added some Loctite into the bore and pressed them together

One disk has thread and the other side has countersunk holes. The crankparts were then screwed together.

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on February 07, 2017, 09:34:56 AM
Hello Michael

Thank you for posting the photos of the crankshaft assembly process.

They say a picture is better than a thousand words.

Thanks again

Mike
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 07, 2017, 12:47:41 PM
Hi guys,
i can Report some success  :cheers:
since i had a other Problem with the triggering because an additional flywheel weight i was able to get the engine running and somewhat iddling. Have to hook up the coolant System now and rework the flywheel to get some more inertia.

69ZlucqNCl8
Thanks for all of your Input.

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Nick_G on February 07, 2017, 12:55:11 PM
.
Yippeeee. Bravo.  :)

Nick
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: steamer on February 07, 2017, 01:13:48 PM
Nicely done Michael!

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Dave
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on February 07, 2017, 01:20:17 PM
Hay Michael,

Bravo, bravo.

That is excellent news to get the Bugatti running.

Now you know it works, you can make the wiring system permanent.

Please throw away all those crocodile clips, they may be quick and easy to use but can cause all sorts of reliability problems.

Regards

Mike

Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Jo on February 07, 2017, 01:46:30 PM
 8)

Jo
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: vcutajar on February 07, 2017, 02:39:00 PM
Congratulations on getting it to run.

Vince
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Roger B on February 07, 2017, 06:19:26 PM
Excellent  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 07, 2017, 06:44:40 PM
Hay Michael,

Bravo, bravo.

That is excellent news to get the Bugatti running.

Now you know it works, you can make the wiring system permanent.

Please throw away all those crocodile clips, they may be quick and easy to use but can cause all sorts of reliability problems.

Regards

Mike

YES I AM REALY REALY relieved that i could sort out the gremlins.
And yes of course these interrim stuff has to go.
One hour ago i got an hevy smack of spark right into my thump because one of the wire came loose while i played with the throttle. Man that hurts. :zap:
. I will order the right clips that mate to the coil pins.
I will also make a second set of wires for decoration. They will be plugged into the dizzy cap.


Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on February 07, 2017, 07:46:26 PM
One hour ago i got an hevy smack of spark right into my thump because one of the wire came loose while i played with the throttle. Man that hurts. :zap:

Michael

Ha Ha. That was inevitable. :old:

Now put all those crocodile clips in a box and sell them to someone else on e-bay. Always use proper connectors.

I used today to redraw the crankshaft for my Mercedes W165, using your press fit method and standard thin ball races. I think it will work OK and will still look just like the original engine. It will be much easier to make the crankshaft from a number of identical pieces than to make the whole thing as one piece

Thanks for your help and support

MIke
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: fumopuc on February 07, 2017, 07:56:00 PM
Hi Michael, nice progress. Congratulations.
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Admiral_dk on February 07, 2017, 09:11:55 PM
Congratulations on a runner :cheers: and a great looking one too :praise2:

I actually like those crocodile clips too - they can be great for testing and they might be a pain if one isn't careful  ;) (I just took a 500V zap when trying to place one today :zap: from one hand to the other  :embarassed: ).
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Art K on February 08, 2017, 02:24:21 AM
Michael,
I'm glad to see it running so well. :whoohoo: My dad always had dozens of clip leads around, and they do have their place. And a bigger flywheel helped some of the low speed problems? Out of curiosity I have seen two styles of straight eight cranks, single plane and 90 degree. What does this engine use?
Art
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: 90LX_Notch on February 08, 2017, 03:28:26 AM
Congratulations Michael.

Unfortunately, I can not view the video.  Is it on YouTube?  If so, what is the title?

-Bob
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 11, 2017, 02:53:23 PM
Michael,
I'm glad to see it running so well. :whoohoo: My dad always had dozens of clip leads around, and they do have their place. And a bigger flywheel helped some of the low speed problems? Out of curiosity I have seen two styles of straight eight cranks, single plane and 90 degree. What does this engine use?
Art
Art i donīt realy understand the question. Because of the numbers of cylinders and the 4 stroke principle i donīt think a plane crank is possible in an straight eight. Maybee this works for an V8?
I used  1 6 2 5 8 3 7 4 as firing order and so the crank is orientated in 90 degree steps.

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 11, 2017, 02:54:43 PM
Congratulations Michael.

Unfortunately, I can not view the video.  Is it on YouTube?  If so, what is the title?

-Bob
Bob its named Bugatti Typ 50 verbesserte Zündung

michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 11, 2017, 03:01:26 PM
Hi guys,
had to take a setback in my project >:(
While i was sorting out the noise Problem my spark plugs went bad. So the engine was harder to start and at the end i couldnīt get it running.
i inspected the plugs and the insulator was burned away arround the tips. I think they are now sparking inside the plugs and no more from tip to body :Mad:. The corian is not strong enough to withstand the sparking. So my plan is to use some ceramic Isolator pieces that are used for high Temperatur Setups. Donīt remeber the english Name, has something to do with fish.
See the pic.
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 11, 2017, 03:06:13 PM
Now, i go on withe the build Report
September 2014
i machined the valve covers, nothing Special to say about them.
also pics from the ready crank
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 11, 2017, 03:16:25 PM
march 2015
working on the cylinder Barrels. Tey are made of ETG 100. This is an easy machinable high strength steel.
it has a tensile strength from 960-1100 N/mm^2.
The inside Diameter was bored and reamed to a smaler Diameter the spec becaus i had the reamer.
The cilinders was then taken on an arbor to machine the outside diamter to spec for pressing them into the block.
After pressing them in the inner Dia was bored out to approx 3/100 below spec. The rest was done by lapping with  valve lapping compound and a fabricated mandrel.
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 11, 2017, 03:17:39 PM
more pics

i also used Loctite to surely seal the Barrels into the block. My first idea was to use thin O-rings.
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 11, 2017, 03:23:56 PM
April 2015
milled the cilinders flatt to the block and did the boring.
Some time ago i was able to buy a Ultra cool boring head named wohlhaupter upa2 for realy small Money. As it arrived by mail, i saw that it was never used . This is realy some fine tool.
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 11, 2017, 03:26:32 PM
Wohlhaupter in action
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 11, 2017, 03:31:01 PM
may 2015
seems i didnīt take any pics from lapping the cylinders.
Here are the pics with the ready work. Last pic is the tool to do the measurement of the inner Diameters.
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: keith5700 on February 11, 2017, 06:57:39 PM
Michael, you are going down exactly the same path I went down with using any sort of plastic insulator in the spark plugs. In a previous post I mentioned about the pressure tester I made. This showed that when the spark is under pressure it is very much reduced in intensity. I can only think that this is why everyone who uses ptfe or corian insulators seems to be ok.
Our problem is that when the wasted spark fires, on the inlet stroke, it isn't under pressure, so is far fatter, and I think this is what is melting the plastic insulator.
If you aren't using resistive leads then it will just make things worse.
This is one reason I have gone to full sequential ignition on the v10, so I now have no wasted spark.

I still had the problem of internal tracking in the plugs. In the end I resigned myself to paying out for the proper machineable ceramic, Macor, and making the first 30mm of insulator from this. The back end of the plug is still ptfe though. My plugs are about 60mm long.

I also found a plain butt join won't work, between the Macor and ptfe. You need to make a stepped joint to prevent internal tracking. I'll get a drawing up if you're interested, but it won't be till Wednesday.

I ended up using a 1mm diameter electrode. You'll need some decent drills to get through the Macor, but it is possible. If you plugs are fairly short then it should be easy.

If I do another engine I will most certainly design it around one of the commercially available mini spark plugs.
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 11, 2017, 09:22:52 PM
Keith, i will be glad to see the drawings.
My ecu doesnt support 8 cylinder sequential. What ecu are yue using? I am using a ms2 on my classic car, but i think it also can not fire 8 individual plugs.
I think i will build a little pressure chamber like you did from acrylic glas just for curiosity but i am sure the first set of plugs ist shot and useless.

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: keith5700 on February 11, 2017, 09:37:12 PM
Michael, I'm using MS3, but this will only do 8 cylinders in sequential mode. I had 2 extra ignition drivers installed. I don't think anyone's done a 10 cylinder full sequential Megasquirt install on full size yet.
Not that I could find anyway.
I had my MS2 upgraded to MS3 and the 2 drivers put in for Ģ300.
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Roger B on February 12, 2017, 07:56:32 AM
Michael, The shape of the end of the insulator is also important. The spark will track along a surface more easily than it will jump a gap. Typically the length along the surface should be at least 5 times the gap. Sharp corners on the insulator will also encourage sparks. In his V10 thread Keith has a number of drawings of different designs.
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 16, 2017, 10:31:47 AM
Hi guys,
next part was the oil pump in December 2015. It is a gear pump driven by the crank. I made a spray bar that is spitting oil onto the rod bearings. Then the oilline is routetd to the valve tappets. each valve  bank has also a spraybar where the oil is directed to each single cam and ist Follower.
The gears are made from brass. milled them with my cnc dividing head.
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 16, 2017, 10:38:07 AM
the caverns of the gear pump where made with the boring head. For a good allignement the cover and the Body where bored together.
Using brass bearings in Aluminium Body.

Here is a Video from a test Setup in the milling machine.

BP0oItnOI7Q
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 16, 2017, 10:48:00 AM
january 2016 oil pump mounted to the engine, soldered the suction pipe.
Also did the gear housing for the valve Timing gears.
Small dowel pin for the Fixing the first gear to the crank.
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 16, 2017, 10:52:17 AM
Machining the gear housing from two pieces screwed together.
first step was milling out the inside then screw the pats together and screw both to a fixture
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 16, 2017, 10:54:22 AM
fitted to the block
Some gears to see

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: keith5700 on February 16, 2017, 12:47:29 PM
here are my current plugs. also shown is the insulator from a mini spark plug, and a smaller complete plug from the same source.
I have tried to slim down the insulator nose on my plugs to try and get it to run hot and burn off any oil or soot, which I have been suffering with.
The drill is a mini carbide pcb drill.

(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/keith5700/2017-02-14%2022.59.40_zpswixtg98c.jpg)

(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/keith5700/2017-02-14%2023.01.19_zpsglj4w3po.jpg)

(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/keith5700/2017-02-16%2007.34.42_zpsqv7ewjdz.jpg)
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 16, 2017, 12:56:39 PM
Keith These are really nice :ThumbsUp: thanks for showing.
I am redesingning my plugs. Will also use ceramic. I am looking for some Standard material like ceramic pipes for thermocoupler or so.
What thread size did you use?
Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 16, 2017, 01:15:03 PM

(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/keith5700/2017-02-16%2007.34.42_zpsqv7ewjdz.jpg)

Is the electrode soldered to the Body?
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: keith5700 on February 16, 2017, 01:36:27 PM
thread size is M6 x 0.5.
electrode is machined as part of the body.
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Roger B on February 16, 2017, 06:06:04 PM
Those should give a much better tracking length and avoid burning of the insulator  :ThumbsUp: Nicely done  :praise2:
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 27, 2017, 01:44:38 PM
Hi all,
a friendly member of an german cnc Forum gave me some pieces macor.
i will do the lower part of the Isolator from this, upper part is made of corian.
Here are some pics from the new design. The internal gap will be filled with jb Weld.

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on March 07, 2017, 07:57:49 AM
Hi guys,
february 2016 i worked on the conrods. They are made from Aluminium 7075.
Made a Little fixture to hold them in the vice.
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on March 07, 2017, 08:03:41 AM
Little off Topic : I also took my time to Mount the Long purchsed laser cut set of a corsett for the column of the mill. I bought that stuff years ago but never had time to build it up.
 Last pics i checked the angle between table an column, went out quite well :cheers:
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on March 07, 2017, 08:07:26 AM
On Topic:
made the rest of the gears . The gear cascade is ready from ground to top.

Here is a link to a Video of the Setup that i used for running in the gears.

2RtcKAvFbmE
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on March 07, 2017, 08:31:17 AM
I also worked on the oiling System. The pump feads the oil through a spraybar to the flywheelside of the Motor.
Here it is directed up tu the cylinderblock. From the cylinderblock a tubing System is used to get the oil to the cams.
In the cam housings are also spraybar mounted. The holes in the spraybars are 0,4mm
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on March 07, 2017, 08:36:07 AM
march 2016
i did the pressure relief valve for the oil pump. it is adjustable.
Machined the flywheel and the piping System to feed the oil to the cam housings.
Alos did the two round covers for the gear housing.

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on March 07, 2017, 08:45:13 AM
Michael, more great work for us to admire. I am sure Etore would have approved
Thanks
Mike
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Chipmaster on March 07, 2017, 09:21:45 AM
Very impressive Michael. :ThumbsUp:

Andy
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: yogi on March 07, 2017, 05:06:50 PM
Fantastic work Michael!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Thanks for sharing!
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on March 10, 2017, 10:01:08 AM
Hi Guys,
here is a Little update on the new plugs.
Machinde one lower part of the Isolator from macor. Machines realy nice, just  a Little dusty.
Electrode is from Tungsten like the one that  Keith did.

Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: 90LX_Notch on March 10, 2017, 01:13:56 PM
Michael-

Very impressive work. 

-Bob
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on March 10, 2017, 07:39:41 PM
Michael,

Looks good.
How is the tungsten electrode fixed in the macor insulator. and how will the macor insulator be fixed in the plug body?

Mike
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on March 10, 2017, 07:56:35 PM
Hi Mike,
here is a cut drawing of the plug. I will silversolder the tungsten electrode to a short piece of m2 thread.
This is to screw on the conector and to hold the setup in the isolator.
The smal gap between lower and upper isolator part is filled with jb weld which also hold and seal the electrode.
The idolater itself will be hold by small crimped seam at the top of the metal body.

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on March 10, 2017, 09:39:11 PM
Hello Michael,
The choice of JB weld is good. JB weld appears to have a much higher temperature resistance than most epoxy resins.
The tungsten electrode looks to be about 1.5 mm diameter.

Mike
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on March 11, 2017, 05:55:31 AM
Michael,

I just checked the data sheets for JB Weld. The data sheets show it contains both steel and carbon black particles. I could not find any information about the insulation (conductivity) properties of the material. I would be cautious when using JB Weld to make spark plugs.

It may be OK to bond the tungsten electrode into the macor insulation, but make sure there is no JB Weld exposed at the ends. You can wipe off any excess with acetone. I think you should ensure there is absoluty no JB Weld between the central electrode and the earthed outer body. otherwise there is the risk of tracking when the high spark voltage is applied.

Mike
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on March 13, 2017, 11:13:12 AM
Mike i had the same concerns, but they write on their Homepage jb weld is an Isolator  https://www.jbweld.com/pages/faqs

So i gave it a try on my first set of plugs. There was no Problem withe the jb weld but with the corian that was eaten away by the sparks.

Nevertheless i will Keep the jbWeld in the smal chamber between the the two Isolator parts. Just to be sure.

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on March 13, 2017, 11:17:47 AM
April 2016
Conrods are complete machined. Only Needs some sanding to break the Corners.
Startet on the pisons. They are also made of 7075.

Used a bore gauge to messue the cylinders. I made the Pistons with  a 0,03mm undersize.
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on March 13, 2017, 11:24:29 AM
May 2016
Assembled the rods and Pistons into the block. Unfortunatly i had to correct the pisons because the valves hit the pison in some positions. So i machined some pockets into the Piston head. Will Show These pics later)
Also worked on the Valvetrain.
I machined the valvels from ETG100. Made the tappets and the shims.
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on March 13, 2017, 11:27:09 AM
June 2016
To form the valve seats i used this Handy tool. Ist a countersungk with a hole in it that i bought ready. I only had to bild a small pin that fittet to the hole and the other side to the valve guide
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on March 13, 2017, 11:30:57 AM
July 2016,
to make the lat cuts on the valves i made a quick and dirty holder.
The valve stem and the bottom where turned to spec.
 I also hardened the cams.
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on March 13, 2017, 11:34:04 AM
Another Job was to mill the side plates and engrave the Bugatti sign.

Last two pics Showing my machines.
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: fumopuc on March 13, 2017, 02:59:31 PM
Mike i had the same concerns, but they write on their Homepage jb weld is an Isolator  https://www.jbweld.com/pages/faqs

So i gave it a try on my first set of plugs. There was no Problem withe the jb weld but with the corian that was eaten away by the sparks.

Nevertheless i will Keep the jbWeld in the smal chamber between the the two Isolator parts. Just to be sure.

Michael

Hi Michael,
I have made the experience, that during powder coating, JB weld will not attract the powder if negative is conected to the part.
To overcome the problem, some iron powder was given on the soft surface and after curing the powder coating was no problem anymore.

Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on March 13, 2017, 04:28:48 PM
Michael,
Interesting comment from fumopuc that JB Weld is not conductive. However, I think you are wise to ensure the JB Weld does not bridge the gap between the center electrode and the earthed body. Very high voltages will always find a weakness in insulation.

Regarding your bronze valve seat inserts. How are these sealed into the cylinder head? Do you use a compression joint or do you bond (glue) the inserts to prevent gas leakage. Another use for JB Weld perhaps?

Mike
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on March 13, 2017, 05:02:02 PM
Mike,
As always i am a little anxious, so i used loctite 648 and a press fit.

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on March 13, 2017, 06:12:05 PM
Michael
Loctite 648 is the higher temperature retainer so should be OK. Luckily the Bugatti is water cooled and so the cylinder head temperature are controlled.

Following along with every move you make and learning all the time.

Mike
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on April 12, 2017, 09:36:12 AM
Hi Guys,
here is a short update on the new set of plugs.
Isolator from macor ready, Body from steel ready (only hex missing).
Upper part of Isolator to make.

Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on April 17, 2017, 08:38:30 AM
Hello,
the new plugs are ready and i was able to run the engine quite a bit.
The plugs works nice .. almost.
Think there are 2 or 3 cylinders missing.

Here are the Videos:

dwHWSM_tZSo
zROGooEZR-E
HJXxdWlMbmc
Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Roger B on April 17, 2017, 09:05:22 AM
Sounds excellent  :praise2:  :praise2: The new design of plug has a much better tracking length on the insulators.
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: fumopuc on April 17, 2017, 09:50:12 AM
A really excellent sound. You should be very proud of what is made there.
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on April 17, 2017, 10:49:21 AM
Beautiful work Michael. The Bugatti sounds great.
Can you use a infra-red/laser thermometer to measure the temperature of each exhaust port to see if any cylinders are misfiring?
I bought mine from that web auction site and it is very easy to use to detect a bad running cylinder.

Mike
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on April 17, 2017, 11:39:44 AM
Used my fingertip as thermometer. Most ports  hurt some dont :Lol:.

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on April 17, 2017, 11:44:00 AM
Hello Michael
A fingertip thermometer :lolb: Must be the earliest example of a 'digital' thermometer
Low cost and low tech but it will tell you which cylinders are not working well.

Ouch, ouch, ouch, uhh, ouch, ouch, uhh, ouch.       Must be 4 and 7 which are missfiring

Mike
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on April 17, 2017, 05:25:01 PM
Hello Michael
A fingertip thermometer :lolb: Must be the earliest example of a 'digital' thermometer
Low cost and low tech but it will tell you which cylinders are not working well.

Ouch, ouch, ouch, uhh, ouch, ouch, uhh, ouch.       Must be 4 and 7 which are missfiring

Mike
:Jester: :ROFL: :lolb: :Lol:
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: 90LX_Notch on April 18, 2017, 01:27:43 AM
Hell yeah, it's getting there Michael.  Awsome work.

-Bob
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on April 18, 2017, 11:46:16 AM
hi,
i took out all plugs and gave the a cleaning with brakecleaner and pressured air.
one plug is defetive it has a resitance between the electrode and the Body of 2,7 Ohm. Donīt know what went wrong with that plug.
Other Pplugs had infinite Resitiance like expected.
 I took the best of the first run plugs and did a new testrun of the engine.
Man this Thing is screaming like hell.

Blue smoke also nearly went away.

Next step is to make some headers and an exhaust System

UkAVwrHT6ao
Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on April 18, 2017, 12:28:48 PM
Hello Michael

Herzlichen Glückwunsch zu deiner Leistung

Congratulations, I am really pleased for you.
You have got your miniature engine  to run and sound like a full size Bugatti engine, with the authentic ripping calico sound to the exhaust note.
Full of admiration of your achievement

Cheers

Mike :cheers:
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: crueby on April 18, 2017, 12:52:59 PM
That is spectacular! Congratulations!
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on April 18, 2017, 02:13:38 PM
Hello Michael

Replies #108 and #109 may be relevant to the spark plug failure. Ignition voltages are more searching than low voltages

Regards

Mike
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on April 23, 2017, 11:46:15 AM
Hello,
think ist time to go on with the build Report.
August 2016 i made the sideplates.
Engraved the logo drilled endless holes

I also worked on the cam shaft/Distributor gear. Drilled a hole for the pin that the gear is not rotating.

Dis some test runs of the camschaft lifter Setup in the lathe.



Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on April 23, 2017, 11:53:08 AM
Oktober 2016
Did some engraving work on the Pistons and the camshaft bearings.
In case of an dismanteling the engine the parts will find their place easy.

Also made the Pistonring from casted iron. For the heat Treatment i fabricated a Setup that holds the gap open.
The logos on the side plates where laid out with read enamel and the other faces where scraped.



Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on April 23, 2017, 01:58:11 PM
Michael
The engraving and surface scrapeing are a work of art in their own right. I am sure Etore himself would have approved.

the 1930's is my favourite era for racing car engines and the Bugatti is one of my favorite engines.

Mike
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Roger B on April 23, 2017, 05:44:18 PM
Magnificent work as we can see by the results  :praise2:  :praise2:
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on April 24, 2017, 08:57:55 AM
Hi guys,
thanks for the Kind words.
In october 2016 i assembled the block with al the Pistons, rods etc. I made the studs for the head. These are M4.
At first i planned with m3 but that seamed to weak so i reworked the threads.
Also made an Headgasket from 0,5mm gasketmaterial.

I realized some clearance issues, the Pistons hit the open valves, so i cuted pockets ito the Pistons.

Next step was lapping the valves into theire seats. Used a MK2 collet with a hose clamp as quick and dirty holder.
That worked realy nice.

Also machined the parts for the first set of spark plugs. They are made from Corian as Isolator and a 2mm tig welding rod as electrode.
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on April 24, 2017, 09:00:15 AM
more pics:

Regards Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on April 24, 2017, 04:42:30 PM
Michael
More outstanding workmanship. I realy like this engine and how you have built it.
What diameter are the valve stems? I like your idea of holding and lapping the valves with the valve stem held in a small collet. I have used a small drill chuck in the past but the three contact points would mark the valve stem. Your idea of using a collet will increase the contact area and so should prevent making the stem.

Mike
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on April 24, 2017, 09:36:46 PM
Hi mike
I made the same experiance with the drill chuck. The collet holds the stem strong enough to comfortable  do the lapping.
The valve stems are 3mm. Made them from etg 100.

Regards Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on May 03, 2017, 11:06:08 AM
Hi guys,
in january 2017 i worked on the intake manifold. Sorry no pics from the machining,. Thought i made som but canīt find them  :shrug:
 The intake is made from an Aluminium bar, bored with an deep hole drill from one side and then closed the hole with an Aluminium plug. The boring was done on the lathe because the workroom of the mill is to smal. i mounted the drill into the chuck and the workpiece on the slide.
After that one side was milled under 45 ° and the rest of the boring was done on the mill with an tilting table.

Next step was the oil Screen on the suctionline of the oilpump. turned  a Little Cup as housing and soldered a brass mesh into it. Then solderes the Cup onto the pipe.

Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on May 03, 2017, 11:09:39 AM
Also ordered a big bunch of model screws and worked on the scraping.
Assembled the parts to the block.
Worked on the pulleys for the cooling Ventilator. Used a small 3m wide angle belt.
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on May 03, 2017, 11:11:18 AM
then it was ready for the first start. Had some issiues with the ignition but i was realy happy with the first bangs
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on May 03, 2017, 11:15:06 AM
in february 2017 i made the cooling water collector on top of the engine. Itīmade of some brass pipes with different Diameter. Hardsoldered and grinded.
Milled the flanges and made a Little jig to solder them .

Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on May 08, 2017, 08:18:14 AM
Hi guys,
i worked on the exhaust. Here are the pics.
had the flanges lasercut, just to try this out. They came pretty nice and accurate. I was realy supprised  about the tolerances :ThumbsUp:

Made a simple pipe bender for the tubing. I used 10x1mm hydraulic precission tube, milled the collector and silver soldered al part together while they where Held in a jig.

Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on May 08, 2017, 08:21:28 AM
I am not sure about the rest of the pipe Routing. Going 8 in 2 with both 10x1 tubes  or 8 in 2 in 1 with 12x1 tube after connecting the headers?
Has anyone experiances with the different sounds depending on the Setup of the exhaust System?

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Roger B on May 08, 2017, 08:52:57 AM
Excellent looking manifolds  :praise2:

The sound difference will depend on the firing order of the cylinders. If the firing sequence connected to a manifold group is not regular you will get a typical American V8 sound from that group. If the sequence is regular 8-2 or 8-1 should not make a big difference.
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on May 08, 2017, 09:22:26 AM
Good-looking exhaust manifolds
They say that copper tube tailpipes will resonate and enhance the sound. I would expect the effect to be greater with two separate tailpipes. An 8 inline engine has a regular exhaust beat so cannot produce the American V8 rumble.
Mike
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: MJM460 on May 08, 2017, 10:47:03 AM
Hi michelko,

Beautiful job on the manifolds.

Could you please show us some more of your jig and its material and how it maintained alignment accurately, did not draw all the heat away and avoided being soldered to some part of the manifold?  I would also be interested to see your bending jig, you must have quite a good one to achieve such wonderful results.

MJM460
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on May 08, 2017, 11:26:23 AM
Hi michelko,

Beautiful job on the manifolds.

Could you please show us some more of your jig and its material and how it maintained alignment accurately, did not draw all the heat away and avoided being soldered to some part of the manifold?  I would also be interested to see your bending jig, you must have quite a good one to achieve such wonderful results.

MJM460

Obviously i can Show you the jigs, but ..
Hmm .... maybee you are expecting a Little to much high tech in this headers.
I machined to rolls, fitted them to an u shape beam an connected them with an handle.
The other allignement was done with some c-clamps.

Same on the soldering jig. Two 45° cut plates welded to a u Beam. Clamped the collector to the beam and the flanged ljust layed on the two plates. Some primitiv measuring and eye balling. Thats it.
This was ok for me because ist not a production run, just two pieces. So i kept it simple.

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: MJM460 on May 08, 2017, 11:53:26 AM
Thanks Michael,

Yes, I was expecting something more high tech.  Your work and level of skill are all the more amazing for being completed on such simple improvised jigs.  I assume you had lots of heat available.  With my skill level, I definitely need more help from the equipment.  Thankyou again.

MJM460
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Roger B on May 08, 2017, 12:04:13 PM
Simple but effective  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:

What's the engine in the background of the last picture, a Wallaby?
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on May 08, 2017, 12:40:21 PM
Thanks Michael,

Yes, I was expecting something more high tech.  Your work and level of skill are all the more amazing for being completed on such simple improvised jigs.  I assume you had lots of heat available.  With my skill level, I definitely need more help from the equipment.  Thankyou again.

MJM460

Just an simple MAPP gas Torch.

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on May 08, 2017, 12:54:23 PM
Simple but effective  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:

What's the engine in the background of the last picture, a Wallaby?

This is an E.T. Westburry SEAL.
 I build this years ago. Started when i was ca. 22 years old.
This was my first attempt to metallworking.
At now it isnīt running. Some time i will check whats wrong.
Here is a Video running the seal. Itīs from 2009.

KNE2KXAHaKMMichael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: stevehuckss396 on May 08, 2017, 10:39:35 PM
From memory the pipes look correct. Nice job.
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on May 10, 2017, 02:56:01 PM
Hi
i finished the exhaust. I am very satisfied with the result. Much more stable idle and a Little better Sound.

B2lGPgcJ9H4
Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on May 10, 2017, 06:03:55 PM
Michael

Beautiful sound and beautiful model engine

Mike
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Art K on May 11, 2017, 12:29:21 AM
Michael,
Wow that sounds great! I had to wait till I got home to watch the video.
Art
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: ThomasM on June 18, 2017, 07:01:17 PM
Hello Michael,

This engine is impressive. I actually climbed up the hill to a running four cylinder engine and the second four cylinder is in progress.
Maybe sometime i test my patience of building six, eight or even ten or more parts of one kind...

Again, more than impressive.
One of the best model engines i have ever seen.

Best regards,
Thomas
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: crueby on June 18, 2017, 07:21:55 PM
That's fantastic! Love the sound!
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on June 18, 2017, 07:42:58 PM
Wow, beautiful engine and a really great sound.
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on November 05, 2017, 12:05:52 PM
Hi guys,
now that the sommer has gone i found some time to work on the Bugatti again.
I startet to mill the supercharger dummy. It will carry the fuel injector.

Here are some pics of the machining.
First is my Setup with Rotary table , then some pics of the raw block, then precutting with a 10mm ballnose mill,
then pocketing with 1.5mm ballnose mill
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on November 05, 2017, 12:07:35 PM
at the Moment i am doing the sanding to smooth out the ribs and surfaces.

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: steamer on November 05, 2017, 12:21:46 PM
That looks great Michael!

Dave
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on November 05, 2017, 12:40:41 PM
Michael, that's a big lump of aluminium you are working with. The dummy supercharger will look good mounted on the side of your Type 50 engine.

Will you be making a dummy carburetor to go with it? I see you said you intend to fit an injector nozzle within the supercharger body. Are you planning to use a "Magasquirt" or a similar system to control the fuel injection?

Mike
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on November 05, 2017, 01:04:00 PM
Hi Mike,
i am using an arduino based ecu called speeduino. Its already controling the spark. www.speeduino.com
I am using a megasquirt on an other Project : Porsche 914/6 with Triumph Speed tripple ITBS on EFI. And yes,  will fabricate two carb dummys that will act as Throttles.

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on November 05, 2017, 01:47:02 PM
Michael,

Wow, speeduino, so many variables to mess up. Do you start with a basic set-up, or map, that is known to work?
What do you use for the physical fuel injection hardware. Is this something you make, or is it based on automotive hardware? And the same question for the ignition system.

Mike
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on November 05, 2017, 02:10:49 PM
Hi Mike,i am using automotive parts.
There are some small injector called pico. I think they are first build by magnetti marelli.
here is a pic from one that i had already chopped. Ground away the plug and shortend the injector a Little bit.

The Coils are also from automotive. These ones came from a VW golf.

Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on November 05, 2017, 02:46:49 PM
Michael,
Thank you for sharing this information.
Someone must take the first steps and other will follow.
One day, when you have time,  you could do the full story about installing and setting up a speeduino system.

Mike
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: steamer on November 05, 2017, 03:23:39 PM
Michael,
Thank you for sharing this information.
Someone must take the first steps and other will follow.
One day, when you have time,  you could do the full story about installing and setting up a speeduino system.

Mike

Following along as well!
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on November 21, 2017, 08:51:03 AM
Hi guys,
have some Problems running the Bugatti. The engine pushed oil out of the crankcase vents while running.
I made some baffles to Keep away the oil splash from the breathers.
After that i couldnīt get the engine running mor than a pair minutes and then the plugs where fouled.
It pumped so much oil that it came unburned out of the exhaust.

I decided to Change out the spraybar with a solid pipe.
Hope that cures the oil Problem.
Since the crank is equiped with roller bearings it should not Need much oil.

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on November 21, 2017, 08:52:34 AM
i also thought about using some 2 stroke oil in the fuel to lubricate the Piston/cylinder.

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on November 21, 2017, 10:00:59 AM
Hi Michael,

Could the plug fouling and excessive crankcase venting be due to a piston ring problem? If some  rings are no longer sealing properly, they can cause these sorts of problem.

You can check the compression of each cylinder to see if one or more cylinders has become low on compression. Or you can remove each piston and inspect each of the piston rings. Perhaps a ring has broken or become trapped and unable to move. You will also be able to see if each ring has even wear all round the circumference or if it is localised to three contact points.

Good luck with the problem solving

Mike

 
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on November 21, 2017, 11:01:52 AM
Hi Michael

Can you remind us, do you have oil rings in addition to the compression rings?

Mike
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on November 21, 2017, 11:17:36 AM
Hi Mike,
at this Point i do not want to dismantle the Pistons because this means take of the head etc.
I can feel strong compression while turning the crank, so i think (and hope) the rings are o.k.
I planned two compression rings an one oil Control ring.
Unfortunatly i was not able to Mount the oil ring beause they broke while i am trying this.
This oil pumping was an issue from the beginning, but not so bad as after Fitting the baffles

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on November 21, 2017, 12:02:19 PM
Hi Michael

I can completely understand why you do not want to pull down the complete engine to examine the piston rings. Having only the compression rings and no oil control rings does not help.

You must assume that here is blow-by past the rings and it is increasing the pressure in the crankcase. The excess pressure is trying to escape through the breather and also upwards into the cylinder head. You could try and enlarge the size of the crankcase breather to reduce the pressure. It may help.

Perhaps you could stop using the crankshaft oil pump and use two-stroke oil/ fuel instead. That is the way most flying model engines are lubricated. The blow-by past the piston rings now works to your advantage and oil is blown into the crankcase to lubricate the bearings.

I have a Siedel 5 cylinder radial engine which is lubricated  by a 5 to 10% fuel/oil mixture. You only need a small quantity oil in the fuel. If the engine makes smoke, you are using too much oil.

It should work well for your Bugatti, you have the advantage of roller bearings

Mike

Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on November 27, 2017, 09:59:13 AM
Hello,
here is a Little update on the Bugatti build.
The changes on the oil spray bar went well. Ran the engine 30 minutes with no plug fouling. i also Used two stroke oil with the fuel, just to be safe.

An old Problem with the ignition/ECU turned on again. I changed the Position of the Coils and had again Problems with the triggering.

I purchased some shielded coax cable to connect the sparks to the Coils.
Will Keep you informed.

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on November 27, 2017, 01:04:55 PM
Hello Michael

Good to hear that the oil spray bar changes have helped with the plug fouling. Is it still blowing oil out of the breather with the new crankcase baffles? Can you reduce the pumped crankcase oil supply now that you are using oil mixed with the fuel?

They say that shielded cable should only be connected to earth at one end only, to avoid earth loop problems. Do you have shielding around the trigger wires?

Keep us posted about progress

Mike
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Roger B on November 29, 2017, 07:25:50 AM
Hello Michael,

Shielded HT wires are generally not a good idea. The capacitance of the cable tends to slow the rise time of the spark and cause burning of the sparkplug electrodes. Sometimes it has to be done to avoid radio interference, such as in aircraft engines.
Looking at your picture of the coils above it would be better to bolt them both to an aluminium plate and then bolt that to the engine body. You need to consider the complete spark circuit and how the current returns to the ground end of the coil.
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on December 04, 2017, 01:34:18 PM
Hi guys,
i gave the shielded wires a try and ... same as before. :rant:
But i think i found the Problem. It is maybe a faulty sparkplug that produces These heavy Spikes in the rpm pickup.
Have to fabricate some more plugs.


Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on December 04, 2017, 01:54:25 PM
Michael,
I just checked the data sheets for JB Weld. The data sheets show it contains both steel and carbon black particles. I could not find any information about the insulation (conductivity) properties of the material. I would be cautious when using JB Weld to make spark plugs.

It may be OK to bond the tungsten electrode into the macor insulation, but make sure there is no JB Weld exposed at the ends. You can wipe off any excess with acetone. I think you should ensure there is absoluty no JB Weld between the central electrode and the earthed outer body. otherwise there is the risk of tracking when the high spark voltage is applied.
Mike

Mike i had the same concerns, but they write on their Homepage jb weld is an Isolator  https://www.jbweld.com/pages/faqs

So i gave it a try on my first set of plugs. There was no Problem withe the jb weld but with the corian that was eaten away by the sparks.

Nevertheless i will Keep the jbWeld in the smal chamber between the the two Isolator parts. Just to be sure.

Michael

Hello Michael

We had a conversation about the spark plug construction a while ago. It may be best only to use the JB Weld to bond the tungsten electrode into the macor insulation, I would make sure there is no JB Weld exposed between the two insulator parts, to prevent the risk of tracking between the central electrode and the outer body. Can the insulator be made as a single part?

Keep us posted about progress

Mike
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on December 06, 2017, 09:41:59 AM
Hi Mike,
of Course it could be made from one Piece.
But macor is realy expensive, so i made only the part that is exposed to heat from that.
A fellow member of an other Forum gave me some crap pieces macor for free.
Trying to get the best out of that pieces.

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on December 06, 2017, 10:27:44 AM
Hello Michael

I fully understand about the price of Macor, the cost is astronomic.
I am sure a one piece insulator will be better and should solve your ignition problems.
Try to make as many one piece insulators as possible from the free gift. Fortunately, some of your two piece insulators still work OK.

Good luck.

Regards

Mike
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: BillTodd on December 06, 2017, 05:49:19 PM
where in the world are you micheal? might be able to supply a couple of bits of macor

Bill
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on December 10, 2017, 08:48:54 PM
Hi Bill,
many thanks for the kind offer. I live in germany.
If you have some pieces i would gladly take them.
Of course i will pay for the postage.

Regards Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: BillTodd on December 10, 2017, 09:18:29 PM
I'll see what i can find in the scrap bin ;-)
how long are your plug insulators ?
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on December 11, 2017, 11:13:26 AM
Hi Bill,
the length is 44,5 , Diameter is 5mm.

Regards Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: BillTodd on December 11, 2017, 06:09:20 PM
I've a couple of short lengths of bar stock (25mm diameter approx 70mm long) that you could probably quarter and turn , but I'll check at the works for something easier to work .

send me an address via pm (don't worry about postage)

Bill
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on December 17, 2017, 03:57:16 PM
Oh man this little stinker is driving me crazy.
A new problem encountered. If i remove the exhaust it runs realy good and stable without fouling the plugs.
Putting the exhaust on it stops running after 1 or 2 minutes with all plugs wet. :hammerbash:
Any body knows whats going on?
How did you guys setup the exhaust? Diameter, collector, etc.

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Admiral_dk on December 17, 2017, 05:15:49 PM
I can not say that I have any experience in this size .... but if full size practise applies here too - your collector diameter and the following pipe is too small ...!

On a street bike with a "Four into One" - you place all four header pipes next to each other, so they fit into a square and the across size of the square is more or less the diameter of the following pipe. The header pipes are usual 5-10% bigger than the diameter of the channel in the cylinder head

So while your design in reply 155 looks fine, it's absolutely NOT a power exhaust system .... but a restrictor.

Best wishes

Per
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on December 17, 2017, 05:34:25 PM
Hello Michael

I tend to agree with Admiral, Your exhaust system is probably acting as a restrictor.

That gives you a problem. The exhaust system you have built is true to scale size but an exhaust system to improve running will need to be much larger than true scale size.

It is difficult to advise how much bigger the pipes need to be. I would experiment by running the engine without the final tail pipes. Then try increasing the size of the tail pipe after the 4 into 1 joint to double the inside diameter of the four down pipes. That should help.

Later, you could try to make a new exhaust system out of very thin wall pipe to improve the flow but not spoil the scale appearance.

This is a difficult one.

Mike
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on December 17, 2017, 05:53:39 PM
Is it a possibility that valve overlap and exhaust duration are at a borderline that will not tolerate any restrictions  :shrug:  Just thinking with my fingers.

Cletus
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on December 17, 2017, 06:09:06 PM
Sitting here in the livingroom before the fireplace i had some similar thoughts.
The header without the endpipe makes the same effect. I will open up the flange.
Another thought was the cam timing as cletus mentioned.
 What numbers do you guys run? Maybee there is to much overlap?
Not looking for max power, just stable run at the stand would be nice.

I think i will take the engine into the cellar, where it is not so cold as in the shop and do some adjustments.

So many variables to sort out :facepalm:

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on December 17, 2017, 06:26:06 PM
Michael

Another variable is the fact that the full size Bugatti has a supercharger to blow the smoke out of the cylinder before adding the fresh charge.

I have looked at the exhaust system for my supercharged Mercedes W165. The exhaust pipes appear to have similar undersize proportions to your Bugatti and the same 4 into 1 arrangement. Both engines were designed in the same era, before gas flow was fully understood. Maybe the supercharger helpes clear the exhaust gasses.

I know for sure, the full size Mercedes W165 suffers badly from plug fouling, They must start with hot plugs but drive with cold plugs. If the driver stalls the engine, it fouls the plugs and they have to start all over again with the hot plugs. With the cold plugs fitted the driver needs to keep the engine revs constantly between 4000 and 8000, no slow tick over allowed.

You are not alone.

Mike
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on December 17, 2017, 06:46:04 PM
I was just having a look through some rare restoration parts supplies for specs on the original camshaft and found out that the original was supercharged and popped back to say the same thing Vixen said while I was away. Have you tried seriously reducing the fuel and maybe even try a bit more spark advance.

Cletus
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: BillTodd on December 17, 2017, 07:43:43 PM
check the simple things first - is the pipe blocked by a weld blob?

bill.
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on December 17, 2017, 08:50:49 PM
Bill
The pipes are free, i checked that already.  i silversoldered the exhaust no welding.

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Art K on December 18, 2017, 02:15:23 AM
Michael,
I don't have anything intelligent to add but just want you to know that I'm following along. I hope you sort it all out. Just out of curiosity though with the questions about cam timing did you set it up as it would have been stock? And is that radical for a normal engine, and if so could you tone it back a bit by just adjusting the cam timing?
Art
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on December 18, 2017, 09:43:16 AM
Michael

Is the plug fouling a continuation of the oil mist/breather problem?
You were getting a lot of oil blow-by past the piston rings which was fouling the plugs. You were talking about reducing the pumped oil to the  bearings and mixing the oil with the fuel instead.
So what are the running conditions today, excess oil blow-by or oily fuel?

Just thinking out loud

Mike
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on December 18, 2017, 11:32:09 AM
Hi Mike,
i poured nearly all oil out of the crankcase and made 1:50 mixture with 2 stroke oil.
Did a testrun with out the exhaust headers and it ran just half an hour just nice.

On sunday i thought i should mount the exhaust again. After that it ran just 2or 3 minutes and stoped firing one cylinder after the other.
So i am realy sure that the whole Problem has something to do with maybe the dia of the tubing or with the valvetiming or both.
With the last trys the plugs where wet from fuel not oil. (as much as i could see).

Regards Michael



 
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on December 18, 2017, 12:55:13 PM
Hi here is a Video from the sparkplugs at a cleaning session.
I stimulated the ecu with 6000rpm. The sparks nicely burnt away the oil and Carbon.
After some minutes the sparks went to nice blue colour.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgqhZJqMShw


Was supprised how warm they get while the procedure. It is ice cold in the the shop.
Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on December 18, 2017, 03:50:24 PM
Hello Michael

There was no video with your last post.

You said it was very cold in your shop, OK it is winter. That may be significant. A water cooled engine needs be at about 70 to 80*C to vapourise the fuel and run cleanly. Is your engine up to full temperature (both the coolant and the engine block) when you get the plug fouling? Or is it still cold? Is there any way you can pre-heat the coolant to 70*C before you start running the engine. Warm fuel will also help vapourisation.

You may have a number of small issues, which all together become a big problem. Cold engine, cold spark plugs, rich mixture, narrow exhaust pipes, valve timing etc. Eliminate them one at a time and you will get there.

Mike
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Roger B on December 20, 2017, 07:25:46 AM
Some browsers (IE11?) can no longer see videos linked with the YouTube icon above. If you just paste the URL they are visible.

Temperature is important. As I have to do my running outside I am not going to try my diesel until things warm up  ::) My petrol engines are harder to start when it around zero, even if the sun is shinning.
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: BillTodd on December 20, 2017, 10:22:41 AM
Quote
Some browsers (IE11?) can no longer see videos linked with the YouTube icon above. If you just paste the URL they are visible

Google pushing 'chrome'  ?
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on December 20, 2017, 08:35:21 PM
Hihere is the raw link
JgqhZJqMShw
Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: BillTodd on December 21, 2017, 03:37:51 PM
I have finally got to the post office, your macaw is on its way to you (quite what you're going to do with a dead parrot is anyone's guess ;-)) 

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6d/Blue-and-Yellow-Macaw.jpg/220px-Blue-and-Yellow-Macaw.jpg)

Bill
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on December 21, 2017, 03:45:09 PM
 Dead parrot? :thinking:   :headscratch:  :facepalm: :lolb:  :lolb: in that order

Nice one Bill

Mike
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on December 21, 2017, 08:12:18 PM
The parrot is not dead..... he is just relaxing
  :Lol:
Many thanks for the material.


Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on December 22, 2017, 02:55:46 PM
Hi guys,
today i started a new batch of plugs.
These will get some improvements (hope so).
Different insulator tip, one Piece insulator, different mass electrode.
turned the Bodys, still have to drill them out.
soldered the electrodes.
I love These Little torch, flame is small as a needle and much heat.

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on December 26, 2017, 03:50:04 PM
Hi guys,
i re checked the valve Timing. Here are the results:
Exhaust opens 47° before BDC
Exhaust Closes 23° after TDC
Inlet opens 11° before TDC
Inlet Closes 55° after BDC
meausured with an valve Lifting of 0,1 mm

Looks not so bad What do you think??

Regards Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on December 26, 2017, 08:21:53 PM
Hello Michael,

Your valve timing looks reasonable. I would not expect you to have a problem engine with these valve event timings and durations.

Mike
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: ThomasM on December 27, 2017, 01:14:54 PM
Hello Michael,

You wrote that you have run the engine for about half an hour with 1:50 mix without oil in the oil pan. At this point i remenbered the problems i had a few days ago when i first tried to run my model a engine. The engine behaved very difficult ( missfires, sudden stops no idle and so on ) . All of the problems dissapeared when i removed the oil out of the oil pan and changed to 1:50 mixture.

I dont want to unsettle you but it is difficult for me to believe that the exhaust can be the reason for the plug fouling. When you run the engine for half an hour it consumed a significant amount of gasoline and therefore oil. Could it be that after half an hour of running the blow by of the two stroke oil has filled up the oil pan enough for creating the problems of oil pumping and therefore the plug fouling ?

Best regards,
Thomas
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Roger B on December 28, 2017, 01:37:08 PM
I agree that the valve timing looks fairly normal. You are measuring at 0.1mm opening, what is the actual valve lift? If you have a fairly high back pressure due to a restrictive exhaust the late closing of the exhaust may cause problems. I have no real feel for how the gas flows in small engines compare to full size ones but typically the late closing of the exhaust valve is to allow the inertia of the exhaust gas flow to pull the last of the exhaust out of the cylinder and create a slight vacuum to help the induction. If there is too much back pressure the exhaust will tend to obstruct rather than help the inlet flow.
Thomas's point is also valid.
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on December 28, 2017, 03:08:22 PM
Hi guys,
@ Thomas:
i made 0,5l fuel with 1:50 mixture. So this is just 10ml of 2 stroke oil.
While i did the recheck of the valve Timing i drained the case. Had only some Drops of a oil/fuel mix coming out. maybe that was at al 10ml. The initial oil fill was abaout 180-200ml 20W50 Oil.


@ Roger:
valve lift is 2.5mm

Regards Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Roger B on December 29, 2017, 07:32:35 AM
Ok, so you were measuring the timing at about 4% lift where there will not be much flow  :headscratch: Have you tried running with just the 4-1 pieces without the longer single pipes? it looks like there is a flange there. If the running is improved you could try larger outlet pipes.
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on December 29, 2017, 08:10:28 AM
Roger
you are right. The long pipes can be dismanteled. I ran the engine without them only the collector parts.
Makes no difference. Some minutes and the engine starts dieing.
Only without the whole exhaust i can keep it running.
I am a little clueless what causes this behavior.

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: BillTodd on December 29, 2017, 11:43:05 AM
how strong are your valve springs? …

just wondering if pressure pulses from one cylinder can push another open ?
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on January 15, 2018, 11:59:40 AM
Bill,
i donīt think so. The springs are pretty strong and the Exhaust has an open end so there should not be any Kind of vacuum.

The macor arrived, many thanks for yout Support.

To sort the Things out i started to make a new exhaust. Itīs a eight in nothing.

i was able to collect an ultra cheap fuelpump/filter/Regulator setup of an triumph motorbike. Some of the next steps would also be to work a little on the injection system.
Must do the waterpump also.... so much to do before i get  :old:

Michael

Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Roger B on January 15, 2018, 12:40:10 PM
That 8 to nothing exhaust will make a rather different sound  :) I hope it helps towards solving your problem.
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on January 15, 2018, 01:59:30 PM
Hi Michael,

I am sure if you are very logical in your testing and make only one change at a time, you will succeed in identifying the problems and their solution.

Good luck

Mike
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on January 25, 2018, 10:09:58 AM
Hi guys,
here is a Little update on the Waterpump.
Machined the housing and the cover. Came out nice. Still have to do the impeller and the shaft bearing.

Michael

Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 05, 2018, 09:18:27 AM
Hi Guys,
here is a Little update on the waterpump. Just waitung for some hose Clips that i ordered.

All parts are ready machined.
 First pic is how it looks like on the original engine.

Just been curious about the flow of the pump. Not tested yet.

Michael

Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on February 05, 2018, 11:06:06 AM
Hello Michael

The waterpump looks good. I am sure it will work very well for you.

It looks like the water pump is driven off the camshaft drive gear train. Is there a second water pump on the far side, or is that the return pipe to the radiator.

What are you using for coolant? Water with antifreeze or one of the new waterless coolants made by Evans and others?

Mike
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 05, 2018, 11:27:23 AM
Hi Mike,
Till now i ran an electric pump sourced from the watercooling of an pc.
If the new pump is not strong enough i will use the electric one too and hide it under the engine stand.
Coolant is basf glysantin, it  is automotive stuff.

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on March 03, 2018, 08:45:48 PM
Hi started the production of the next generation of spark plugs.
Thinking about the electrode tip. Should this be flat or like a needle?
 Would like to hear your thoughts.

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on March 03, 2018, 09:16:32 PM
Hello Michael

In my book, the flat electrode is prefered to a sharp pointed electrode.

The air around the spark becomes ionised and the next spark finds the path of least resistance, which is never the path of the previous spark. If you were able to view the tip of the electrode you would see the train of sparks progressing around the outside of the broad (flat) electrode. With a pointed electrode, the spark's options are limited.

Other may disagree, then you have to decide yourself.

Mike
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Art K on March 03, 2018, 11:13:19 PM
Michael,
The water pump looks great. I was looking at it trying to figure out the flow direction but could only go one direction. Can't help with the spark plug question.
Art
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Roger B on March 04, 2018, 06:49:29 AM
I agree with Mike, a flat surface with a relatively sharp edge. A spark will start more easily from a sharp point or edge, hence the rounding off of high voltage components. A needle point in a spark plug will get very hot and erode rapidly as well as being a potential cause of pre ignition.
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on March 04, 2018, 07:45:54 AM
Thanks for your suggestions and wisdom. I will go with the flat tip.
@art: it is a centrifugal pump. These can only work in one direction. Pressure side is directed to the side cover of the block.

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on March 04, 2018, 09:17:23 AM
Took some time to start with the new batch of plugs because i converted my mill to beltdrive.
I didnīt liked the annoying noise of the gears.

Here are some pics from the manufacturing.
At first i sawed the big Piece of macor apart like a cake. Bill provided me with some 25mm round bars.
To get as much as possible out of the Stock i used these process. It gave me nine pieces.
second step was making them round.
And then giving them the desired shape.


Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on March 04, 2018, 10:00:33 AM
Nice start on the new batch of spark plugs. You did well in getting nine pieces out of the big piece of Macor.

Can you post a drawing of the proposed spark plug design?

Mike
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on March 04, 2018, 03:01:07 PM
AAARRRGH,
just destroyed two blanks.
First  broke one of t these stupid Little 1mm drills. Couldnīt get it out of the blank without breaking the makor. :'(

Second one i machined a wrong Dimension because i was unconcentrated and  had already the first Desaster in mind.
 :hammerbash:

@Mike: here is a cut pic from the new design. Donīt mind the Separation line in the pic, the Isolater s just one Piece.

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on March 04, 2018, 03:41:17 PM
AAARRRGH Michael, I feel your pain. Bummer

Be cool, take it easy. Things will work out just fine from now onwards

So you are using the same design as before, except now it will be a one piece insulator.

Mike

Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on March 04, 2018, 04:37:43 PM
Another difference is the shape of the ground electrode

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on March 05, 2018, 09:58:57 AM
Hi,
here are the new plug parts.
Little treasure chest  ;)

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Roger B on March 05, 2018, 10:30:46 AM
Splendid  :praise2: I hope that they are successful  :wine1:
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on March 05, 2018, 11:01:51 AM
Splendid  :praise2: I hope that they are successful  :wine1:

believe me i too

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on March 05, 2018, 11:47:16 AM
Hello Michael,

It looks like you have eight little gems in your treasure chest. Bravo.

Mike
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on March 07, 2018, 08:37:47 AM
Hi,
after i finished the plugs i made another test run yesterday.
I think this is the best Batch of plugs that i made till now.
Engine was running realy nice with very low idle.
But i noticed an other old Problem from that i thought it has gone.
The ignitionbox has big Problems with noise from the sparks.
I saw rpm Spikes up to 17000 upm while running near idle.
This is causing missfiring and after some minutes the plugs where again wet.

I am thinking of using a analog ignition System  with a transitor, single coil and a Distributor

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Roger B on March 07, 2018, 09:17:27 AM
Are your coils solidly connected to the engine block? There must be a good return path for the spark current.
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on March 07, 2018, 09:26:13 AM
Roger
they are wasted spark Coils. One coil fires two plugs.

I tryed connecting the coil housing to the block and the block to battery ground.
Helped nothing.

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on March 23, 2018, 10:24:12 AM
Hi so here is the Video of the testrun with the new plugs.

L53Ygu6A37I
Plugs worked fine, just one is faulty the spark jumps outside the engine throug the Isolator  :(

Looks like the macor has imperfection at this place.

Another Problem is again the ECU. Noise on the tach Input makes missfires all the time, not realy bad but noticeable.

I will try the Transistor ignition shown in Modelengineer issue 34. Just ordered the electronic components and the pcb.

These will fire through a Distributor to the plugs.

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on March 23, 2018, 10:56:12 AM
Hi Michael

Sweet, straight eight music. Well done

Mike
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Roger B on March 23, 2018, 05:06:06 PM
Excellent  :praise2:  :praise2: Did the water pump give enough flow?
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on March 23, 2018, 05:07:50 PM
Hi Michael

Try cleaning (polishing) the surface the faulty spark plug insulator with fine wet-n-dry abrasive paper followed with a wash in alcohol. There may be some invisible contamination from the manufacturing process.

15000V and a 15 thou gap (oh, thats about 0.38 mm) works well. I find higher voltage can cause trouble with our miniature plugs. A coil-over-plug unit will produce a very high voltage

Mike
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: sco on March 23, 2018, 08:45:19 PM
Awesome Michael - Ettore would be proud to have that on his desk.

Simon.
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on March 28, 2018, 03:00:44 PM
Hi i started to work on an Transistor Ignition. The template was shown on Modelengineer Issue 34.
Colected parts and the pcb. Soldered the parts together yesterday. Makes i nice Spark so far.
I fittetd the hall sensor into the dizzy and also 8 magnets.

How big should the cap be? How fare should the pins are away from each other? I have o experiences.

Would like to hear youtr thoughts.

Here is a short video:

kVU8slSYR3k
Michael

Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on March 28, 2018, 03:37:16 PM
Hello Michael

I like your spark plug holder.

I have an eight cylinder distributor cap made by Bruce Satra. I believe S/S Machine & Engineering took over from Bruce. Try http://www.cncengines.com/orderpage.html

The eight plug leads are equispaced on 25.4mm (1 inch) PCD. The individual leads are therefore spaced at 9.7mm

Hope this helps

Mike

Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on April 04, 2018, 12:57:36 PM
Hi Guys,
did the first testrun with the Transistor ignition.
I must say i am realy impressed from this Little electronic Piece.

Here is a Little longer Video running the engine with a Distributor.  yTWrV1vsBbE
Believe me or not it is just running on 3 cylinders.
Number 1 5678 exhaust pipes are cold.

But it is a rock solid idle.

The Problem is the material of the Cap. as you can see it got Little paths from some Points to another. This is Bakelit with Cotton. I think the Cotton is burned and builds up Carbon the leads to shortcuts between the electrodes. Was a quick and dirty part to try the System.

Will make a new one from pom and with a sligthly different design
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Roger B on April 04, 2018, 02:40:21 PM
Does the rotor make contact with the electrodes or is there an air gap? If it makes contact it may be spreading particles of brass between the electrodes which will promote tracking. Full size distributors usually make contact to the coil electrode (often a carbon brush) and have a small airgap to the sparking plug electrodes.
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on April 04, 2018, 03:41:43 PM
No contact, i think i go with gbrittnel design for the next cap/rotor. This Hobby is a steady learning process.

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on April 16, 2018, 10:53:02 AM
Hi guys,
herre is a new update on the Project.

I fabricated a new cap and rotor from pom. I made also new wires with brass plugs as Connection to the cap.
This works realy nice. could get the engine running nice and stable with almost all cylinder firing.

The engine is running on 2 stroke mixture 1:50 with literaly no oil in the crankcase. I only filled aprox 20ml of 20w50 into crankcase to save  the oilpump from running dry.

Here are the videos :

qGufMe4xPfc
sVm1_OluhgU
With more oil in the case just 2, 3, and 4 are running al other cylinder get oil fouled plugs after some revolutions.
Just have to research the oil control ring story.


Michael

Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on April 16, 2018, 12:19:26 PM
Hello Michael

It's good to see the Bugatti running so well and with the original exhaust headers.

I understand you are still having trouble with oil fouling from the crankcase. I have looked at your engine but cannot see any means of ventallating the crankcase. Is the crankcase pressurising and forcing the oil mist up into the cylinders?

I have these two photos of a full size type 50 engine. You can clearly see 6 (two hidden behind the blower) crankcase breather vents located midway up the crankcase to discharge the gas pressure from any piston blow-by.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/Bugatti_type_50_L.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/Bugatti_type_50_R.jpg)

This may help

Mike
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on April 16, 2018, 01:14:54 PM
Hi Mike,
These are my crankcase breathers. I believe that These are the same in the real engine.
the engine has 6 of it every one is a 6mm hole.

BTW your JUPITER is an awesome fine build  :ThumbsUp:

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on April 16, 2018, 01:36:16 PM
Hi Michael

I can now saw the circles on the crankcase top, I did not realise they were drilled through to ventilate the case.

Is there much air blowing out of these vents? I would have expected some blow-by oil as well.

If the problem is not blow-by air/oil, it could also be from bearing oil being sprayed onto the cylinder walls.

I think we both know that oil control rings may be the answer. Steel oil control rings will be easier to fit without breakage than cast iron, but take longer to bed in.

Keep working at it

Mike
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: cwelkie on April 16, 2018, 01:46:06 PM
Excellent progress Michael - even with the odd miss, your engine sounds wonderful.
Keep at it, you'll get all the little things sorted out.
Charlie
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on April 16, 2018, 01:50:16 PM
I am thinking of making oil rings out of leaded free turning steel. What do you think?
my first oilrings where made out of cast iron and i was not able to assemble them onto the piston they al broke at the oil return slit.

Can steel be annealed like the cast iron? Or do i have to make them bigger in Diameter?
Is brass useable?

Any thoughts or comments from the specialists are appreciated

Thanks Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Jo on April 16, 2018, 03:32:37 PM
Eric and I just discussed this and we agree that you are going to struggle to get the annealing/springing right - even in full sized vehicles they normally use CI rings. A few fancy engines use high spec steel chromed steel rings  ::)

CI rings will outlast you  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Stuart on April 16, 2018, 04:27:08 PM
In my long dim past my dad did up a Ford 8 (old sit up and beg ) car

The oil control rings were in multiple parts thin steel rings two in the grove they had a wave type spring steel backing and a further ring like a dished washer again spring steel , so four parts to the ring in the grove

Stuart
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on April 16, 2018, 06:02:31 PM
What were the dimensions (diameter, width, height, slots etc) of the cast iron rings that would not stretch and broke?

Mike
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Jo on April 16, 2018, 06:48:43 PM
The oil control rings were in multiple parts thin steel rings two in the grove they had a wave type spring steel backing and a further ring like a dished washer again spring steel , so four parts to the ring in the grove

Yes Eric mentioned in our discussion that a backing wavey spring is required to get the pressure right  :facepalm:

Jo
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Zephyrin on April 16, 2018, 09:05:57 PM
As regard brass, I don't know, but phosphor bronze is suitable for piston rings, very tough material, very springy.
In my hands, cast iron rings break when they are more thick than high.
may be the profile created in yours rings introduces a lot of stiffness, hard to see how a thermal treatment would amend that
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on April 18, 2018, 12:59:01 PM
Hi,
the first set of rings where 1,6 mm high and 0,8mm deep with a groove with ~0,6mm.
The holes are 1 mm. When i read These numbers i blieve the Diameter of the hole is to big. Maybee also to much holes?
The rings i tryed to assemble broke through the hole.

Instead of the holes i might try to slitt the ring at  4 positions and left the side oposed to the gap unmachined.

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Jo on April 18, 2018, 01:21:38 PM
The hole is HUGE relatively :o of course it will break. Try something nearer 0.3mm

Jo
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on April 18, 2018, 01:28:44 PM
yes i will, are there any benefits of using slits against holes?

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Jo on April 18, 2018, 01:43:28 PM
Slits spread the force load when you stretch the rings... you will probably get away with a slightly wider slitting saw..

Try it and we will see  :D

Jo
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on April 18, 2018, 02:28:15 PM
I agree with Jo, those 1mm holes are far too big and would be major stress concentration points. The rest of the control ring dimensions look reasonable.
Smaller drain holes would be better, several thin slots would be even better. It would be best to keep the slots as thin as possible.
You should also consider missing out the hole or slot on the opposite side to the ring gap, where the bending forces are highest when you fit the rings to the piston.

Mike

Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Craig DeShong on April 20, 2018, 01:22:43 AM
I use a slitting saw.  I think these were done with a .020 inch saw.  I had no problems installing the oil ring.
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on April 20, 2018, 10:27:43 AM
Craig These look like my new design. I just ordered a small slitting saw blade 25x0,5mm.

Will make then a new set of  rings. Just hate the idea to disassemble the hole engine to fit them :Mad:

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Admiral_dk on May 07, 2018, 09:04:19 PM
Hi Michael

On a 8 cylinder inline you shouldn't get any positive pressure in the crankcase if the pistons + rings seal perfectly ....
As this never happens in real life, you will need a vent (or more).

My first four-stroke engine was a Suzuki GS550 (inline four) and it had a 12mm hose from the cylinder head to the airbox. This was enough in standard trim, but when power was increased it blew big amounts of oil out that way - despite a reasonable labyrinth in the head - so I had a collector box with a connection back to the crankcase => problem solved.

I'm just trying to tell you that you certainly need to have a good breather from the crankcase, but even then you still might have a problem that requires the oil control rings too ....

On a vey different note - I saw a running Bugatti Type 35 51 from 1933 at the local race track yesterday. A beauty and nice sounding for the first two laps - the driver then gave it quite a bit more pedal and it started to cuff sputter and misfire and one and a half lap later it wasn't running on all eight anymore  :'(

Another guy was running an Alfa Romeo 308 formula one car from 1938 much slower, but he kept going to the end.

Best wishes

Per
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on July 02, 2018, 01:37:17 PM
Hi guys, would like to hear your opinion…

If i crank and hold the carburetor closed with my thumb, should i feel some vacuum at the finger?
I think so but i am not sure with a multicylinder engine like the Bugatti.
The Background is i had to open up the idle Setting for a (in my) opinion very large ammount and i am not feeling its sucking. .

 Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Roger B on July 02, 2018, 02:58:12 PM
Assuming that there is some valve overlap (inlet and exhaust open together) then on an 8 cylinder engine the vacuum will probably be lost that way. If you can remove the inlet manifold and try the individual cylinders I would expect some suction.
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on July 02, 2018, 05:19:13 PM
Hello Michael

At any moment, in an 8 cylinder engine, one of the cylinders should be sucking and the other inlet valves should be closed.

Low suction may be a symptom of leaking piston rings as would excessive blow-by into the crankcase.

How fast do you need to crank the engine to get it to start?

Regards

Mike
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on July 02, 2018, 07:40:46 PM
Hi Mike,
this was my first thought, but i can feel strong compression when i turn it over by Hand. It also holds the pressure for a while and snaps back if i release the flywheel.
Here is a short Video.


-xP5SGvlhGE
So i think its not ring related. Maybe the timing changed? i think i will open it and take some meassurement on the valve timing.

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on July 02, 2018, 10:18:56 PM
Hello Michael

Yes the compression looks strong so the rings should be OK.

You have overhead camshafts, so how do you adjust the valve clearance? Could it be the inlet valves are not opening fully?

Got an idea, e-mail the engine to me and I will have a look.   :Jester:

Mike
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Roger B on July 03, 2018, 07:19:35 AM
If I remember correctly this engine was very sensitive to the exhaust system which is a sign of quite 'wild' valve timing. I would suggest that you try to measure the actual valve openings using a dial gauge and a degree wheel on the crankshaft and then plot them to see what is really going on.

Without delving back through the thread, can you easily adjust the timing of each camshaft?
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: AlexS on July 04, 2018, 06:59:38 PM
Hey Michael. Perhaps another idea to simply figure out the opening and closing moments of your valves.

Using the following CDI ignition:
https://hobbyking.com/nl_nl/replacement-cdi-ignition-for-rcg-50cc-engines.html

And then with the help of the following tuning of the ignition:
https://hobbyking.com/nl_nl/gas-engine-cdi-ignition-test-and-timing-setup-tool-includes-crankshaft-degree-wheel.html


This test set can, in addition to adjusting the ignition, also provide a kind of pulse generator. This is to test your ignition at a certain rpm.

Currently I use this method for my engine. If you connect this to the spark plug, I think you are good when the valve opens or closes. Simply seen that the ignition is quite loud, and if the valve is open the sound becomes louder. At these moments I note the value, by reading the angle measuring device supplied.

Personally, I find this a quick and simple way to find out the valve timing. Of course you can not find a valve opening and the course of the profile.



Or an idea is the reading of angular displacement and linear displacement sensor with an arduino.

https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/WDD35D4-5K-conductive-plastic-angular-displacement-sensor-cheap-angle-rotary-encoder-of-high-precision-linear-0/32815107213.html?spm=a2g0z.search0104.3.1.37037fc7bvfHVe&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_3_10152_10151_10065_10344_10068_10342_10343_10340_10341_10696_10084_10083_10618_10304_10307_10820_10821_10301_10843_10059_100031_524_10103_10624_10623_10622_10621_10620,searchweb201603_32,ppcSwitch_5&algo_expid=d4f7c338-c36f-4cc7-b968-64c2a1d6378e-0&algo_pvid=d4f7c338-c36f-4cc7-b968-64c2a1d6378e&priceBeautifyAB=0

https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/KTC-50mm-series-Linear-displacement-sensor-resistance-scale-electronic-scale-The-packing-machine-Rod-electronic-ruler/32648160463.html?spm=a2g0z.search0104.3.14.37037fc7bvfHVe&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_3_10152_10151_10065_10344_10068_10342_10343_10340_10341_10696_10084_10083_10618_10304_10307_10820_10821_10301_10843_10059_100031_524_10103_10624_10623_10622_10621_10620,searchweb201603_32,ppcSwitch_5&algo_expid=d4f7c338-c36f-4cc7-b968-64c2a1d6378e-2&algo_pvid=d4f7c338-c36f-4cc7-b968-64c2a1d6378e&priceBeautifyAB=0

I am also curious or someone else's options!
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: AlexS on July 04, 2018, 07:11:19 PM
But, but. If you want to change something. Then you should possibly measure the vacuum with a MAP sensor. As a kind of replacement sealing plate for the carburetor?

https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/Intake-Air-Pressure-Sensor-MAP-For-PEUGEOT-1007-106-206-207-306-307-407-BIPPER-EXPERT/32778763728.html?spm=a2g0z.search0104.3.1.73731a13lJLSAE&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_3_10152_10151_10065_10344_10068_10342_10343_10340_10341_10696_10084_10083_10618_10304_10307_10820_10821_10301_10843_10059_100031_524_10103_10624_10623_10622_10621_10620,searchweb201603_32,ppcSwitch_5&algo_expid=66b6dbe7-9994-4a73-a467-995a0b60804f-0&algo_pvid=66b6dbe7-9994-4a73-a467-995a0b60804f&priceBeautifyAB=0

Only thing is to calibrate it. But maybe with a car/motorcycle engine. I heard 200 mbar is common abs. pressure after the throttle valve by running the engine stationary.
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on July 04, 2018, 08:27:03 PM
Hi alex,
I hadthis idea also. At first i used an ecu to control spark. This ecu has an map sensor on board. I will hook it up to the manifold and make some measurements.
Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: AlexS on July 05, 2018, 07:47:18 PM
Okay! May I ask what kind of ecu you have used?
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on July 05, 2018, 08:01:05 PM
sure, its called speeduino and is Arduino mega based.

Today i hooked it up to the throttleboddy. I saw realy low fluctation while cranking the Motor with ca. 1600 rpm.
It Shows the same result as testet with the finger tip. nearly no vacuum :thinking:

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Admiral_dk on July 05, 2018, 09:42:11 PM
Hi Michael

I must admit that I can't remember if you has done any compression test previously in this thread ....  :noidea:

But if you have and all where good => then there must be a leak between inlet valve(s) and the carb somewhere.
If the compression test fails on one (or more) cylinders, that might be why .....
If all have about the same compression, but it is somewhat low - you might have a blockage between the carb and the valves - but probably not the most likely scenario, since it can run ....

Hope this might inspire / help. Best wishes

Per
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: AlexS on July 06, 2018, 07:02:10 PM
I'm a bit brainstorming. I do really like your engine and progression.

Maybe an idea to extort the incoming side of the intake powder. This can be realized with a bottle with a nipple to mount an air hose.

First spray into the inlet nozzle as the first brake cleaner or wd40. And then mount the air hose and pressurize the whole.

It seems to me that somewhere liquid / vapor escapes from possible leak paths. However, the inlet flaps must remain sufficiently closed. I do not know how strong the valve springs are. It could give a distorted picture. To remedy this, you could possibly bring the cylinders under the same air pressure (through spark plug hole).

And for the cylinder you could pressurize the cylinder with the same principle. This could also go along the piston rings. If necessary, put oil in the cylinder, which could provide a bit of a seal.

For me, the use of water was enough to determine which position my valve / valve seal was leaking. This was considerable!
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on December 02, 2018, 07:37:55 PM
Hi,
started a new batch on plugs. Since i converted my mill to ballscrews this is the first production run

BXu-vbvMyvg
The isolator on these is again of corian. Maybe i will reduce the compression ratio a bit.

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on December 06, 2018, 12:46:50 PM
So here are some more pics of the Progress i made.

1. plug bodies


2. forming the electrode using a grinding Wheel


3. first one piece Isolator made complete out off corian.


The very first set of plugs i made last much longer than the later ones. I thought a lot about this. the major difference was the Isolator from corian and the center electrode  from stainless welding rod.

I think i will try again the welding rod instead of the tungsten center electrode.

Regards Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: sco on December 06, 2018, 12:56:41 PM
Great work Michael.  The tool post grinder - any more pictures of that, what you use it for etc.

Simon.
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on December 06, 2018, 01:50:21 PM
Michael,

The new one piece Corian spark plugs look great.   :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

What type of coil are you now using? Do you know the output voltage? Some auto coils produce too high a voltage for our miniature spark plugs, which can make the plugs fail prematurely.

Please post the results of your tests and any developments

Mike
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: steamer on December 06, 2018, 05:21:30 PM
I listened to a talk from Rollie Gaucher,  ...of Rollies Dads lathe alignment method fame.   He talked about making spark plugs using corian but its expensive    his comment was to bring a couple of models to the countertp shops, and theyll usually get so excited that theyll give you some off cuts for free.
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on December 07, 2018, 09:15:14 AM
Mike,
at the end i was using an old Bosch Coil i had on the shelf. No idea what voltage it delivers.


In germany Corian is not realy expensive. On Ebay you can get rest pieces for a couple of euros.


Michael

Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on December 10, 2018, 03:01:33 PM
So i did some calculations and the actual CR should be 5,95:1.
What do you guys think, is this to high? Will the engine run with CR 5:1?. This is Maybe better for the Sparkplugs.


What CR do you guys run with your working engines.

Michael
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on December 10, 2018, 05:16:03 PM
All parts ready machined, still have to cut the Center electrode to length and glue them together.


Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Roger B on December 10, 2018, 05:18:49 PM
I have tended to design around 8-1, but this does not include the volume in the sparking plug or it's thread.
Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: michelko on February 04, 2019, 08:54:45 AM
Hi guys,
Little update on the Bugatti. I started to diassemble the engine.
I bought a cheap chinese pressure loosing tester to check for leaks.
Made an Adapter to fit the plug threads.

I found three leaking exhaust valves. Not realy bad but noticeable against the others.
All Inlet valves are leakfree :cheers:

The tool Shows realy low pressure loss on all cylinder (around 5 %).
But i think this tool is made for automotive engines with greater Dimensions so the numbers  it doesnīt mean anything.

I will then tear it apart and shorten the pistontops to reduce the cr.


Thinking so mutch about this problem i believe it is a combination between high compressionand high voltage from automotive coils.
So another step would be to reduce the high tension of the coils by shorten the dwelltime.

Michael


Title: Re: Bugatti Typ 50 1/4 Scale model
Post by: Vixen on February 04, 2019, 09:37:38 AM
Hello Michael,

I am sure your methodical approach with tests and measurements will help you get the Bugatti to run sweetly. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Do you have drawings of the cam profile and cam timing? It may be helpful if we can help you check the overlap and open durations.

Cheers

Mike