Model Engine Maker

Supporting => Vehicles & Models => Topic started by: crueby on October 22, 2016, 08:42:05 PM

Title: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 22, 2016, 08:42:05 PM
Okay, its time for a big project, and next on the list is a running model of a Lombard Hauler, which was the first commercially successul vehicle with a track drive, back in the early 1900s. They were used in the northern woods (mainly USA, some went to other countries) to haul logs on sleds out of the woods to the sawmills and rail terminals. They were steam powered, using a locomotive style boiler and two double acting engines, one on each side, just like a locomotive, but rather than drive wheels that had a track mechanism on each side and runners at the front (runners could be switched to wheels for moving when no snow on the ground). Here are pictures of from the original patents of the engine and the track system:
(https://s5.postimg.org/5cpum7w93/LPI.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.org/rpxl90x6v/LPII.jpg)
as well as a picture of one in use:
(https://s5.postimg.org/xbk0d2xvr/Lombard_Post_Card.jpg)

Note the steersman at the front - he could control the runners as well as an optional plow blade at the front. He could communicate via a bell rope or whistle back to the engineer in the cab. No brakes, so sometimes they had to bail out if control was lost.

The engines drove a shaft across the middle of the frame, which via chain drive ran a differential underneath
(https://s5.postimg.org/xvz1frr47/slide0123_image178.jpg)
which had, on its output shaft, a pair of drive chains down to the tracks on either side
(https://s5.postimg.org/b4pytd62v/slide0072_image135.jpg)
The tracks themselve look a lot like the modern tracks on a bulldozer or tank today, except that instead of the current system of sprung road wheels to support the middle of the track sections, they used a roller chain under a fixed plate
(https://s5.postimg.org/y4wm5p3wn/slide0035_image037.jpg)

Those parts are going to be the most challenging to build - lots of interchangeable parts that need to be made. One thing going for me on this project is that there are several of these engines still running, and the Maine Forest And Logging Museum up in Bradley Maine restored theirs just a few years ago, and they have put up a TON of pictures, videos, and drawings on their website that is an absolute treasure trove of information, much more than is available for lots of old engines. They did a complete teardown and restoration of their engine, which is now in beautiful running order.
http://www.maineforestandloggingmuseum.org/lombards-in-bradley
If you go through thier site, you can see all the steps they took, with photo and video documentation along the way. A lot of the work involved students from the University of Maine, which also has lots of information. They have a lot of history of these engines, including vintage photos, and even the parts catalog from the manufacturer!

Given all that available information, I am going to make this as detailed a model as I can, though there will always be some details that need to be modified to make this a working model at a small scale. The tracks will all be made, and since the style of chain used in the drive is not available (at least that I can find) at this size, the drive and roller chains will also be made. I have found the same style of drive chain in model scales, but only in plastic, not in metal so far.

The model will be to 1" to 1' scale, which makes it approximately 30" long, 8" wide, and 10-1/2" tall. It will have a 3" diameter copper boiler, which will be a butane fired single-firetube style rather than the original coal/wood option, though I will model in the outer shell of the original style boiler's firebox, it will just have a gas burner inside it. It is a simaler scale (slightly larger) than my Shay locomotive, they should make a great pair. Unlike the Shay, since this one won't need tracks to run on (since it has its own), I can run this one out in the yard with the front runners replaced with wheels!

So, on to the build. I am going to be drawing up the parts as I go, starting from the ground up. The first part will be the track plates, of which I will need only 58 (plus a few spares). Here is a picture of what the real tracks look like,
(https://s5.postimg.org/oqqolwnpj/slide0076_image141.jpg)
and here is my drawing of the plate shape:
(https://s5.postimg.org/ff4moyb5z/Track_Parts.jpg)
To make this many identical parts, it only makes sense to make jigs/fixtures wherever possible. For the model, the plates will be cut from 3/4" wide x 3/16" thick stainless steel. Each plate will need to be milled to proper length, then have the fingers along the sides milled in, the holes cross drilled, the ends of the fingers rounded, and finally the traction ridge in the center shaped. To do all that I have come up with a holding fixture that will let me position the parts for an operation, and put in one after another to do that one operation. It has two areas relief cut in, one to hold the part lengthwise and the other to hold it sideways. Here is the base plate of the fixture:
(https://s5.postimg.org/uerxfolqf/IMG_8516.jpg)
and then the top plate that bolts down onto it:
(https://s5.postimg.org/ug1v93nk7/IMG_8517.jpg)
It has a couple of sets of holes to position it for the different operations. And here it is in action milling the first test blank to length:
(https://s5.postimg.org/s001v95hj/IMG_8520.jpg)

Next up will be to spend some time at the big vise with the power saw and cut a boxful of the plate blanks out so I can start shaping them. Pictures to follow during that process...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on October 22, 2016, 08:48:57 PM
Wow, Chris!  I'm going to be following you on this one for sure!  :popcorn:

If you choose to put out a set of drawings, or even a book based on your build, I'll buy it from you!

You don't think small, do you Chris?  This is going to be fascinating!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Dan Rowe on October 22, 2016, 08:58:04 PM
This will be fun to watch.
Stock Drive Products has the smallest roller chain I know of. The price is a bit steep but making chain will be tedious.
https://shop.sdp-si.com/catalog/?cid=p303

Dan
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 22, 2016, 09:26:42 PM
Wow, Chris!  I'm going to be following you on this one for sure!  :popcorn:

If you choose to put out a set of drawings, or even a book based on your build, I'll buy it from you!

You don't think small, do you Chris?  This is going to be fascinating!
Kim
I will be putting up the drawings as I go in the build, maybe it will get pulled into a book someday (love to hire Kozo to draft it all!).

And no, I don't think small - have built a number of engines-only, and got to the point where I want to see them go around by themselves. Now I understand the thinking of the folks who build the traction engines and power wagons.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 22, 2016, 09:33:12 PM
This will be fun to watch.
Stock Drive Products has the smallest roller chain I know of. The price is a bit steep but making chain will be tedious.
https://shop.sdp-si.com/catalog/?cid=p303 (https://shop.sdp-si.com/catalog/?cid=p303)

Dan

I had looked at their chain, but the big difference on the roller chain on the inside of the tracks is that the center pins actually have rollers on them that protrude outside the side links, so that they act like a linear roller bearing race for the tracks.
(https://s5.postimg.org/y4wm5p3wn/slide0035_image037.jpg)
I have not seen any small (or large) chain like that produced now.

The drive chain
(https://s5.postimg.org/b4pytd62v/slide0072_image135.jpg)
is a different style that is still used, but have not seen it in model sizes outside the plastic chain that MicroMark sells, and I just cant see putting a plastic drive chain on a model this heavy, plus next to the boiler with all the heat and oil and hot water (which acetal plastic does not like). Actually, I did find the drive chain style is now made by one of the gauge 1 loco makers (Regner or Roundhouse, forget which) out of brass for one of their models, but the price for the lengths I would need are way high, since they have to hand make it too.
Yup, it will be a tedious thing to make, but the look and function will be worth it. I hope!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on October 22, 2016, 09:42:30 PM
Looking forward to the build Chris. I am sure you will do justice to this unique engine and it will be another fine addition to your collection.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: vcutajar on October 22, 2016, 10:27:29 PM
This is going to be another interesting build Chris.  Where did I put the popcorn?

Vince
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on October 23, 2016, 12:02:31 AM
Hey Chris

Good to see that you are getting started on the Lombard; what are you going to do after Christmas?  :lolb:
I will be following along with great interest.  :DrinkPint: :popcorn:

Dave
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: kvom on October 23, 2016, 12:07:12 AM
Quite a challenge.  In your shoes I'd likely send those track pieces out to be laser cut.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 23, 2016, 12:13:29 AM
Quite a challenge.  In your shoes I'd likely send those track pieces out to be laser cut.

By the last one I might agree!  One of my previous projects was a 74 gun French ship of the line. That didn't cure me of models with lots of the same parts. Quite. But almost!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 23, 2016, 12:15:34 AM
Hey Chris

Good to see that you are getting started on the Lombard; what are you going to do after Christmas?  :lolb:
I will be following along with great interest.  :DrinkPint: :popcorn:

Dave

By then I might be starting on the first chain, maybe. Gotta win some bets against the dshop elves so the have to make some parts..  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on October 23, 2016, 03:26:14 AM
 :whoohoo: I've been looking forward to this build Chris.

Excellent documentation to lay the ground work for this project!  :ThumbsUp:

Time to stock up on  :popcorn:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 23, 2016, 03:56:23 AM
:whoohoo: I've been looking forward to this build Chris.

Excellent documentation to lay the ground work for this project!  :ThumbsUp:

Time to stock up on  :popcorn:

Jim

We should all buy stock in popcorn makers, with all the  :popcorn: around the forum!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Captain Jerry on October 23, 2016, 04:21:10 AM
Wow!  This is going to be a great show.  I am happy to see you undertake the undercarriage parts yourself.  Just one track frame with sprockets and tracks would be a challenge for anyone.  You will surely produce a great model.

Tracks are an area of special interest to me since I spent a fair part of my life in the construction equipment industry, mostly involved with surface mining machines.  The biggest Caterpillar and Komatsu dozers are used in strip mining and the details of track maintenance and repair constitute a a major share of the operating expense for these huge machines.   Draglines and power shovels are also track mounted but they move material by swinging a long boom rather that pushing it around, track wear is less of an expense factor. 

Lombard's early track design  was much more like today's dragline or shovel tracks than they are like modern buldozers.  The track pads or plates of today's dozers do not incorporate a pivot pin.  They are bolted to links which are pinned together to form the track chain.  Lombard's later machines used this link structure but his original machines used pinned pads as you have shown.

There are some details of these pads that do not show up in your plan but may be critical in keeping the track in alignment under the machine.  These details can be seen in some of the photos and on other views of the manual.  I am talking about the four bars on the inside surface of the pad which form guide channels for the track rollers.  These are visible on view 81M of the pad.  There is also a large lug in the center that is engaged by the deep groove on the sprockets (#77 and 76 Lags on the manual page).  The shallow groove in the sprocket engages the roll #89 which is on the pivot pin but the deep groove engages the lug which is located on the narrow part of the pad in the center.

For a lightly loaded model, you can probably ignore the lug but  I think that the guide channels may be important.  It will need a thicker plate to start with the channels milled back to your working dimension.  I am pretty sure that the originals were cast. You will still want the deep grove in the sprocket to avoid contact with the shoe.   I can't help using current terminology for these track parts.  Today, we say pads or shoes instead of lags.

Jerry
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Perry on October 23, 2016, 12:55:34 PM
What a project! I'll be watching this one with great interest, steam engine coupled with chain tracks that so cool!
Regards
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 23, 2016, 01:40:55 PM
Wow!  This is going to be a great show.  I am happy to see you undertake the undercarriage parts yourself.  Just one track frame with sprockets and tracks would be a challenge for anyone.  You will surely produce a great model.

Tracks are an area of special interest to me since I spent a fair part of my life in the construction equipment industry, mostly involved with surface mining machines.  The biggest Caterpillar and Komatsu dozers are used in strip mining and the details of track maintenance and repair constitute a a major share of the operating expense for these huge machines.   Draglines and power shovels are also track mounted but they move material by swinging a long boom rather that pushing it around, track wear is less of an expense factor. 

Lombard's early track design  was much more like today's dragline or shovel tracks than they are like modern buldozers.  The track pads or plates of today's dozers do not incorporate a pivot pin.  They are bolted to links which are pinned together to form the track chain.  Lombard's later machines used this link structure but his original machines used pinned pads as you have shown.

There are some details of these pads that do not show up in your plan but may be critical in keeping the track in alignment under the machine.  These details can be seen in some of the photos and on other views of the manual.  I am talking about the four bars on the inside surface of the pad which form guide channels for the track rollers.  These are visible on view 81M of the pad.  There is also a large lug in the center that is engaged by the deep groove on the sprockets (#77 and 76 Lags on the manual page).  The shallow groove in the sprocket engages the roll #89 which is on the pivot pin but the deep groove engages the lug which is located on the narrow part of the pad in the center.

For a lightly loaded model, you can probably ignore the lug but  I think that the guide channels may be important.  It will need a thicker plate to start with the channels milled back to your working dimension.  I am pretty sure that the originals were cast. You will still want the deep grove in the sprocket to avoid contact with the shoe.   I can't help using current terminology for these track parts.  Today, we say pads or shoes instead of lags.

Jerry
Hi Jerry,

I had seen the guide channels on the inside of the pads in the photos on the museum site, but didn't know what they were for. Makes sense that they helped keep things aligned with the roller chain. It should be possible to mill them in though. There is enough thickness of the plate to do a shallow ridge there. Do you think that it will make much difference in a track that is only 5" long? That lug on the inside of the center post may not be as easy to do, may be able to do it with a ball end mill, have to experiment with that. Thanks for the information, this is my first attempt at making anything with tracks so it is all new to me! 

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Captain Jerry on October 23, 2016, 02:30:36 PM
Chris - I don't know that length makes much difference.  There are a lot of pin to pad holes that must be loose enough for the track to flex and it will flex right and left as well as around the sprockets.  I see a real challenge in drilling those pivot holes in the pads

The lug doesn't do much for track alignment but the guide chanels may be critical.  It is not unusual for a modern dozer to run out of a track if the track is not well maintained and adjusted.  Wear of the pivot pins and bushings causes the track to get longer but wear of the sprocket causes it to get smaller and eventually, the difference in pitch will let the sprocket climb out of the track.   This usually happens in a turn where there is a lot of side force.

You will not likely get enough wear to make a difference but unless you have enough clearance in the pivot pin holes, the track may be too stiff.  The Lombard  does not have a very tight turning radius and unlike modern dozers, it has a differential to equalize some of the forces.  If you run it on grass or snow there may not be much side force and you can run it with skis instead of wheels. 
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 23, 2016, 02:50:26 PM
Chris - I don't know that length makes much difference.  There are a lot of pin to pad holes that must be loose enough for the track to flex and it will flex right and left as well as around the sprockets.  I see a real challenge in drilling those pivot holes in the pads

The lug doesn't do much for track alignment but the guide chanels may be critical.  It is not unusual for a modern dozer to run out of a track if the track is not well maintained and adjusted.  Wear of the pivot pins and bushings causes the track to get longer but wear of the sprocket causes it to get smaller and eventually, the difference in pitch will let the sprocket climb out of the track.   This usually happens in a turn where there is a lot of side force.

You will not likely get enough wear to make a difference but unless you have enough clearance in the pivot pin holes, the track may be too stiff.  The Lombard  does not have a very tight turning radius and unlike modern dozers, it has a differential to equalize some of the forces.  If you run it on grass or snow there may not be much side force and you can run it with skis instead of wheels.
Good info, thanks!  I can see where the side loads on dozers can be much higher, especially when running one forward and one back, which the Lombard can't do, but still will be forces like that. It sounds like it would be a good idea to make up a few sections to test before making mass quantities of them.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Captain Jerry on October 23, 2016, 03:57:06 PM
Chris - Big dozers don't have the ability to counter rotate.   That is only on the smaller machines using hydrostatic drives.  Big dozers with mechanical drive  have a clutch and a brake for each track.  For a short turn, one track is locked by releasing the clutch and applying the brake.  The other track can run forward or reverse to swing the machine.  There were two big dozers that could counter rotate but I don't think it was used often.  The Euclid dozer had two separate engines and drive trains that could operate independently and the Komatsu 455 had one engine but two independent transmissions, one for each track.  Of course things may have changed a bit in the past twenty years.  John Deere has been using hydraulic transmissions  in bigger machines but they don't compete in the biggest class of dozers.

It never hurts to make a few test pieces to see where the sticky parts are.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 23, 2016, 06:20:07 PM
Chris - Big dozers don't have the ability to counter rotate.   That is only on the smaller machines using hydrostatic drives.  Big dozers with mechanical drive  have a clutch and a brake for each track.  For a short turn, one track is locked by releasing the clutch and applying the brake.  The other track can run forward or reverse to swing the machine.  There were two big dozers that could counter rotate but I don't think it was used often.  The Euclid dozer had two separate engines and drive trains that could operate independently and the Komatsu 455 had one engine but two independent transmissions, one for each track.  Of course things may have changed a bit in the past twenty years.  John Deere has been using hydraulic transmissions  in bigger machines but they don't compete in the biggest class of dozers.

It never hurts to make a few test pieces to see where the sticky parts are.

Never knew that about the dozers. Can tell you have spent a bit of time with the big machines - sounds like you need to model one...  :thinking:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Roger B on October 23, 2016, 07:26:04 PM
That's a fine challenge you have set for yourself  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp: I will be following along  :wine1:

One of this type of log hauler was featured in the German 'Maschinen in Modellbau'  magazine a little while ago.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 23, 2016, 08:04:17 PM
That's a fine challenge you have set for yourself  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: I will be following along  :wine1:

One of this type of log hauler was featured in the German 'Maschinen in Modellbau'  magazine a little while ago.
I was looking at their site for it, looks like a nice magazine. Do you know what issue it was? I looked in their archive but did not see it.
I have found old articles in the 1975/76 issues of Live Steam magazine, some good history mixed in there.

UPDATE: Found the article, it is in the March 2016 issue. It is actually about the Phoenix Hauler version. Lombard licensed the patents to another builder, who made the Phoenix version for a number of years. They were slightly different - they used a pair of vertical cylinders per side, looking more like a Shay engine, and the steering linkage angled back rather than straight down. Also the tracks were a little different, being a shaft/gear drive rather than the drive chain from the differential, and the roller chain took a different route. Same basic ideas, implemented a little differently. Now, if some one of you were to build a Phoenix at the same scale, we could have some nice races between them....

Thanks for the tip to the magazine, have to brush up on my German skills...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 23, 2016, 11:51:48 PM
Started in on the track plates, couple short sessions with the recip saw and got all the blanks cut to rough length, leaving a bit to square them up and trim them to exact length, making a good bin full:
(https://s5.postimg.org/m1vvvvi87/IMG_8522.jpg)

Then started in on the mill, first I took a light pass on one end to square up the rough cut end. This went pretty quick - clamp in, back/forth on the table, stop motor and swap out for the next one, repeat for an hour...
(https://s5.postimg.org/bgc0jvbwn/IMG_8523.jpg)
That left the parts bin full of plates with one end done, then took a few minutes to take one down to exact length, and zeroed the handwheel at that position. Now, should be able to trim the rest in fairly short order, just need to make sure that no chips get in the slot when changing parts.
Here is how the plates will fit into the jig for working on the sides, using the wider section of the recess in the top of the jig:
(https://s5.postimg.org/8aretntaf/IMG_8525.jpg)
When I get to cutting the 'fingers' at the edge, I will first make slightly wider slots in the top surface of the jig so the end mill can project through the part a little and does not rub on the jig.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 24, 2016, 12:12:27 AM
Captain Jerry - Was taking another look through the piles and piles of photos they have up on the logging museum site, and found the picture set that shows the ridges you were describing on the inside of the tracks to hold the rollers from the lower chain in place:

https://get.google.com/albumarchive/111959800036861918331/album/AF1QipNNXIOUWoS_f5aig9hyvnSdLkBsJImiUwNzdagu (https://get.google.com/albumarchive/111959800036861918331/album/AF1QipNNXIOUWoS_f5aig9hyvnSdLkBsJImiUwNzdagu)

I will definitely get that detail in on mine - thanks!!

I still have lots of the albums from their restoration to sort through, it will be a constant process through this build I am sure. For those who are interested, here is the link to all the album sets they have from the students helping the restoration, tons of great details:

https://get.google.com/albumarchive/111959800036861918331
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Captain Jerry on October 24, 2016, 03:07:41 AM
I am sure that you will be happy that you are including the guide channels.  You didn't have to go that far to see them.  They are clear enough in your first post on this thread in the photo with the rollers.  That photo also shows the drive lug. That roller system is a very nice feature and though not used on later track designs looks like it would be very efficient.  It brings to mind the recirculating bals in a linear bearing system.

By the way, that same photo is also the only one that I have found that clearly shows that there are two roller chains on each track frame, four in all.  I was almost sure that there had to be but it took me more than a few looks at that picture before I spotted the inside rollers and chain, peeking through the spokes of the sprocket.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 24, 2016, 04:16:45 AM
I am sure that you will be happy that you are including the guide channels.  You didn't have to go that far to see them.  They are clear enough in your first post on this thread in the photo with the rollers.  That photo also shows the drive lug. That roller system is a very nice feature and though not used on later track designs looks like it would be very efficient.  It brings to mind the recirculating bals in a linear bearing system.

By the way, that same photo is also the only one that I have found that clearly shows that there are two roller chains on each track frame, four in all.  I was almost sure that there had to be but it took me more than a few looks at that picture before I spotted the inside rollers and chain, peeking through the spokes of the sprocket.

I had wondered early on about whether there was a roller chain on both sides of each track too, saw both in some of the photos and videos they have of the underside of the frames. It was interesting to see how different the Phoenix hauler track system is too, lots of changes there. I gotta make a trip up to the museum in Maine sometime...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on October 24, 2016, 05:02:49 AM
Hi Chris,
  :popcorn: :popcorn: oh and more  :popcorn:, plus  :DrinkPint: or two to wash it down with all sorted!

You don't let the grass grow under your feet! Once you get this finished any grass left growing at your place is going to be under threat!

Question for you..... How come you are not building a full loco style boiler, ie multi tubes but only a fire tube?

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: kvom on October 24, 2016, 01:03:52 PM
For display at shows, hopefully you'll be able to raise the model so that the tracks can be seen moving in place.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 24, 2016, 02:05:39 PM
Hi Chris,
  :popcorn: :popcorn: oh and more  :popcorn:, plus  :DrinkPint: or two to wash it down with all sorted!

You don't let the grass grow under your feet! Once you get this finished any grass left growing at your place is going to be under threat!

Question for you..... How come you are not building a full loco style boiler, ie multi tubes but only a fire tube?

Cheers Kerrin
The boiler burner is going to be one from a Gauge 1 supplier, as will the butane tank. I have that setup in a couple of locos, nice and simple both to build and to run. The original was fired on coal or wood, but for easy running, plus ability to run indoors at events, butane is a much better choice. The outside of the firebox will be shaped to look like the original but inside there will be the single burner into one larger firetube.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: RonGinger on October 24, 2016, 02:08:34 PM
In the 'Small World' vein, you found that some work was done at the University of Maine on the restoration. Brian Barker, who now owns the Mach3 CNC software business was at the U then and made the cylinder, Piston and rod, and some track rollers. I just told him about your project and he is interested. Why dont you come out to Maine for a few days, we can visit the museum and Brians shop.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 24, 2016, 02:10:00 PM
For display at shows, hopefully you'll be able to raise the model so that the tracks can be seen moving in place.

Oh yes! I did the same on the Shay, which sits on a trestle stand that I can put blocks on to raise the wheels just off the track. For the hauler, I may need a set of rollers to press the bottom of the track up so the bottom roller chain will move like it should too. For shows, the blowdown valve on the bottom of the boiler makes a good spot to bring in the air line.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 24, 2016, 02:16:08 PM
In the 'Small World' vein, you found that some work was done at the University of Maine on the restoration. Brian Barker, who now owns the Mach3 CNC software business was at the U then and made the cylinder, Piston and rod, and some track rollers. I just told him about your project and he is interested. Why dont you come out to Maine for a few days, we can visit the museum and Brians shop.
Wow! I was just looking at the pics and drawings of that work the other day! Great job on them.They posted the cad drawings of those parts, which will be very helpful to me when I get to the engine. I was hoping to get up there next spring or summer when they have an event with their hauler going. By then also enough should be built to show them the work. Is Brians shop in tnat area too? I'll be in touch!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Johnmcc69 on October 24, 2016, 06:08:27 PM
What a great project Chris! I'll be following this one closely!

 John
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 24, 2016, 09:52:29 PM
Couple sessions on the mill today, got almost all the track plates milled to proper length as shown in the earlier post, and should be starting the next step tomorrow - using a round-over mill bit to round the sides, which will become the ends of the 'fingers' in the track joints....

What a great project Chris! I'll be following this one closely!

 John

Thanks John - welcome to the party!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: RonGinger on October 24, 2016, 10:01:19 PM
Quote
Wow! I was just looking at the pics and drawings of that work the other day! Great job on them.They posted the cad drawings of those parts, which will be very helpful to me when I get to the engine. I was hoping to get up there next spring or summer when they have an event with their hauler going. By then also enough should be built to show them the work. Is Brians shop in tnat area too? I'll be in touch!


Well, by Maine standards we are all  pretty close, but Maine is a big place, and a couple hundred miles is no big deal. Its about 60 miles for me to Brians shop, and maybe 100 to the lumber museum, not in the same direction of course.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 24, 2016, 11:43:11 PM
Quote
Wow! I was just looking at the pics and drawings of that work the other day! Great job on them.They posted the cad drawings of those parts, which will be very helpful to me when I get to the engine. I was hoping to get up there next spring or summer when they have an event with their hauler going. By then also enough should be built to show them the work. Is Brians shop in tnat area too? I'll be in touch!


Well, by Maine standards we are all  pretty close, but Maine is a big place, and a couple hundred miles is no big deal. Its about 60 miles for me to Brians shop, and maybe 100 to the lumber museum, not in the same direction of course.

Of course, always in another direction! From here (western NY state) to southern Maine is about 7-1/2 hours - farther than it used to be many years ago when I used to drive up and back in a day for maritime antique auctions, don't want to try that one anymore!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 24, 2016, 11:45:24 PM
One more picture set for the day, the last of the plates are trimmed to length, and the setup is made for rounding the sides. Just a couple of those done so far, more next time...

(https://s5.postimg.org/q8px2owlj/IMG_8526.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/jwarsutjb/IMG_8529.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on October 25, 2016, 12:06:57 AM
Just checking in Chris to see if this thing is running yet  :lolb:  Nice work on the track parts so far though!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 25, 2016, 12:09:51 AM
Just checking in Chris to see if this thing is running yet  :lolb:  Nice work on the track parts so far though!!

Bill

I didn't know you were actually Bill Nye The Science Guy, with your own time machine to look at the machine in the future!  :ROFL: How's it look? What goofs did I make that I can now avoid?   :noidea:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on October 25, 2016, 12:13:55 AM
Chris you just keep spitting these engines out bud. I have to ask, do you sleep? Always nice to follow along to some great craftsmanship........ :ThumbsUp:

Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on October 25, 2016, 12:16:33 AM
Chris,  I can assure you it looks perfect like all of your work does. You're gonna love driving it around the house or yard :)  which brings up a question...how your going to steer this thing...servo? or just let it go where it wants. Darn, guess I will have to fire the Delorean back up and go check that out...forgot to on the last visit  :lolb:

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 25, 2016, 12:47:09 AM
Chris you just keep spitting these engines out bud. I have to ask, do you sleep? Always nice to follow along to some great craftsmanship........ :ThumbsUp:

Don
Lots of sleep, I just get a lot more done on my own projects after retiring. Lots of hobbies, lots of fun!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 25, 2016, 12:52:34 AM
Chris,  I can assure you it looks perfect like all of your work does. You're gonna love driving it around the house or yard :)  which brings up a question...how your going to steer this thing...servo? or just let it go where it wants. Darn, guess I will have to fire the Delorean back up and go check that out...forgot to on the last visit  :lolb:

Bill

It will have an RC setup for throttle, fwd/reverse, and steering. Maybe whistle too. The steering link will most likely require being able to disconnect the steering wheel since it is gear reduced to the front axle. Fortunately the wood/coal box behind the cab will have plenty of room to hide both radio and the butane tank fir the burner. These days it is common to RC gauge 1 trains so no need to invent anything to control this one. It should scare the nuts off the squirrels!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on October 25, 2016, 03:00:32 AM
Chris,  I can assure you it looks perfect like all of your work does. You're gonna love driving it around the house or yard :)  which brings up a question...how your going to steer this thing...servo? or just let it go where it wants. Darn, guess I will have to fire the Delorean back up and go check that out...forgot to on the last visit  :lolb:

Bill

It will have an RC setup for throttle, fwd/reverse, and steering. Maybe whistle too. The steering link will most likely require being able to disconnect the steering wheel since it is gear reduced to the front axle. Fortunately the wood/coal box behind the cab will have plenty of room to hide both radio and the butane tank fir the burner. These days it is common to RC gauge 1 trains so no need to invent anything to control this one. It should scare the nuts off the squirrels!

Yes.............a whistle............for sure gotta have a whistle!  :ThumbsUp:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 25, 2016, 03:12:42 AM
Chris,  I can assure you it looks perfect like all of your work does. You're gonna love driving it around the house or yard :)  which brings up a question...how your going to steer this thing...servo? or just let it go where it wants. Darn, guess I will have to fire the Delorean back up and go check that out...forgot to on the last visit  :lolb:

Bill

It will have an RC setup for throttle, fwd/reverse, and steering. Maybe whistle too. The steering link will most likely require being able to disconnect the steering wheel since it is gear reduced to the front axle. Fortunately the wood/coal box behind the cab will have plenty of room to hide both radio and the butane tank fir the burner. These days it is common to RC gauge 1 trains so no need to invent anything to control this one. It should scare the nuts off the squirrels!

Yes.............a whistle............for sure gotta have a whistle!  :ThumbsUp:

Jim

That was one neat idea from the way Kozo designed the New Shay, the scale whistle would be good for calling dogs only, so he hid a much bigger one behind the engine to give it a deeper tone. Something similar should fit inside the frame of the Lombard, maybe even longer than on the Shay. Check the video from the Shay completed posts...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on October 25, 2016, 04:21:45 AM
This is a particularly nice whistle that should fit the Lombard.

http://www.nelsonslocomotive.com/Shay/MorePlumbing/PlumbingXWhistle/PlumbingX.htm

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 25, 2016, 04:49:56 AM
This is a particularly nice whistle that should fit the Lombard.

http://www.nelsonslocomotive.com/Shay/MorePlumbing/PlumbingXWhistle/PlumbingX.htm

Pete
It would be great to do a multi chime whistle like that one, the length is good, but I would have to make it a smaller diameter. The boiler is 3",  a 2" whistle would not fit because of all the drive gears and eccentric valve gear under the boiler. From the text, it sounds (pun!) Like a smaller diameter would make it less loud but same pitches, might be able to fit a 3/4" version, have to see what will fit. Smaller diameter would also need less steam to play, I would think.

Thanks for that link, it goes in the planning file!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 27, 2016, 12:43:20 AM
After a few hours (spread over a few days) of crank turning, all the track plate blanks have been trimmed to length and also had their sides rounded over with a corner-rounding end mill:
(http://s5.postimg.org/mfjfq8y6f/IMG_8530.jpg)
They did not take much time each, but with 64 of them in the pile (58 needed, half a dozen spares) it takes a little while to get through them. Now on to a more interesting step - milling in the 'fingers' that interlock each plate into the next one. I was thinking of doing one slot in all, moving the table, doing the next, and so on, but realized that with the even spacing they have, all I needed to do was to carefully align for the first slot, zero the handwheels, and I could do all the slots for one side of the plate in one go. So, here is the first one (well, the second, actually, the first one needed a slight tweak to the starting position) with the slots milled in one side.
(http://s5.postimg.org/ix7ftuxaf/IMG_8533.jpg)
As you can see, the center slot is deeper that the others - that will leave room for the tooth on the sprocket in the center of the track. Also, since I am milling these horizontally, the inner ends of the slots are round when they need to be square. That will be a second pass later, squaring up the slots with a verticall pass. I could have started with the vertical pass, but have learned from previous experience that doing deep passes like that with these small tip (1/8") end mills that they can flex and pull to the side, so I am doing this in two stages for a hopefully better result.
Before cutting the slots, I did go back and mill in a step in the end of the holding jig so that the end of the mill is not rubbing on the bottom on every part, can see that below the part in this photo (the step is full of chips at this point):
(http://s5.postimg.org/sj10a5og7/IMG_8534.jpg)
I have made up the first couple to test and measure, here is the first one
(http://s5.postimg.org/au99ijcp3/IMG_8535.jpg)
and the first pair test fit to each other
(http://s5.postimg.org/wuplz5vd3/IMG_8536.jpg)
Once the slots are squared up, they will fit farther in, plus both of these parts had the same side milled. The second side, when done for real, will have the slots offset by one width, so that the edges of the tracks will line up with each other. As shown before, here is what the finished parts will look like:
(http://s5.postimg.org/ff4moyb5z/Track_Parts.jpg)
So, first couple down, another 56 to go! Each one takes about 2 minutes to do, so I know what the next couple hours of shop time will be...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on October 27, 2016, 03:16:55 AM
Sounds like a job for the "Shop Elves" Chris.  :naughty: At least it looks like you're in for some bad wx up there = more shop time!

I'm enjoying this build.

Jim

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 27, 2016, 03:44:14 AM
Sounds like a job for the "Shop Elves" Chris.  :naughty: At least it looks like you're in for some bad wx up there = more shop time!

I'm enjoying this build.

Jim

Yup, need to leave a plate of cookies next to the plans and see if they get the hint! So far so good on the tracks, the jig is working well. Ordered a couple spare 1/8" end mills, they are going to be getting a lot of work on this build, tons of little parts to shape.

Going to get a half inch of snow tonight, will all melt in the morning. It better, am taking the convertible in for a new top on Friday!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: SteamR on October 27, 2016, 11:18:45 AM
Hello Chris,
the Lombard Steam Hauler is an impressive project.
May be the following information can support you.
A model engineer of the Netherlands has posted a lombard project in gauge 1 size on this platform: http://forums.mylargescale.com/18-live-steam/41562-lomberd-steam-log-hauler.html (http://forums.mylargescale.com/18-live-steam/41562-lomberd-steam-log-hauler.html).

He has his own web side with a lot of information of the original engine and a building log of his model here: http://www.depuffendeschoorsteen.com/lombard-steam-log-hauler-/ (http://www.depuffendeschoorsteen.com/lombard-steam-log-hauler-/).

Interesting is also this movie of a restored Lombard ride (w/ pressurized air only):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=633a6Bej5Ek
Finaly here is a movie of his model:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLaf3Us6Dxw

Hope you have fun with that information
Richard
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: kvom on October 27, 2016, 01:18:02 PM
One thing I noticed on the model in the video is that the lever (johnson bar) is reversed from normal locomotive usage.  I.e., lever forward sets reverse.  I wonder if that is intentional, or he just reversed the valve timing by mistake.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 27, 2016, 03:45:45 PM
Hello Chris,
the Lombard Steam Hauler is an impressive project.
May be the following information can support you.
A model engineer of the Netherlands has posted a lombard project in gauge 1 size on this platform: http://forums.mylargescale.com/18-live-steam/41562-lomberd-steam-log-hauler.html (http://forums.mylargescale.com/18-live-steam/41562-lomberd-steam-log-hauler.html).

He has his own web side with a lot of information of the original engine and a building log of his model here: http://www.depuffendeschoorsteen.com/lombard-steam-log-hauler-/ (http://www.depuffendeschoorsteen.com/lombard-steam-log-hauler-/).

Interesting is also this movie of a restored Lombard ride (w/ pressurized air only):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=633a6Bej5Ek
Finaly here is a movie of his model:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLaf3Us6Dxw

Hope you have fun with that information
Richard
Yes, I have seen his build, quite a nice job! The Maine museum included the link in one of their posts during the restoration. I've been in contact with the museum, they are running the engine for the last time this year on the 5th, but I cannot make it up there that weekend, definitely want to get there for one of the runs next year!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 27, 2016, 09:38:15 PM
Partway along the slots on the first sides of the track plates, 25 down about 35 to go...
(http://s5.postimg.org/qxqbw33lz/IMG_8537.jpg)

These boring updates are where we need Zee back to chime in and liven things up! Best I can do is go get a couple of chocolate chip cookies to share with the shop elves in the meantime...   :DrinkPint:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on October 27, 2016, 10:15:49 PM
I can see where it could get a little redundant when you need an "In Bin" and an "Out Bin" for your parts!  :lolb:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 27, 2016, 10:43:17 PM
I can see where it could get a little redundant when you need an "In Bin" and an "Out Bin" for your parts!  :lolb:

Jim
It would be worse for Jo, imagine building THREE of these!!   :Jester:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on October 27, 2016, 10:54:24 PM
Hmmmm ... Your tracks are almost exactly the same size as the 64 pieces I have printed for a radio controlled excavator that must be nearly the same scale. I might have to "borrow" your drawings for the tracks as they are way more sturdy and realistic than the printed ones.

Tom
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 27, 2016, 11:14:57 PM
Hmmmm ... Your tracks are almost exactly the same size as the 64 pieces I have printed for a radio controlled excavator that must be nearly the same scale. I might have to "borrow" your drawings for the tracks as they are way more sturdy and realistic than the printed ones.

Tom

Did you make the rest of the excavator? I've thought about building one of those for a long time, but could not come up with a good way to control the arms/bucket without actual hydraulics.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Jo on October 28, 2016, 08:20:01 AM
It would be worse for Jo, imagine building THREE of these!!   :Jester:

The next model I have three to do has a total of 12 cylinders :facepalm:

It will be one at a time for a while  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on October 28, 2016, 11:11:15 AM
Hmmmm ... Your tracks are almost exactly the same size as the 64 pieces I have printed for a radio controlled excavator that must be nearly the same scale. I might have to "borrow" your drawings for the tracks as they are way more sturdy and realistic than the printed ones.

Tom

Did you make the rest of the excavator? I've thought about building one of those for a long time, but could not come up with a good way to control the arms/bucket without actual hydraulics.

This is the one I am doing.   http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:50110    It is all printed and I am in the process of making the fastenings and fitting everything together. The "real" R/C ones from Europe do have mini hydraulic systems in them and are all metal, so very heavy. The tracks on this one are very simplistic and since I am not so good with drawing programs, it would be easier for me to machine a set.

Tom
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 28, 2016, 12:21:00 PM
Hmmmm ... Your tracks are almost exactly the same size as the 64 pieces I have printed for a radio controlled excavator that must be nearly the same scale. I might have to "borrow" your drawings for the tracks as they are way more sturdy and realistic than the printed ones.

Tom

Did you make the rest of the excavator? I've thought about building one of those for a long time, but could not come up with a good way to control the arms/bucket without actual hydraulics.

This is the one I am doing.   http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:50110 (http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:50110)    It is all printed and I am in the process of making the fastenings and fitting everything together. The "real" R/C ones from Europe do have mini hydraulic systems in them and are all metal, so very heavy. The tracks on this one are very simplistic and since I am not so good with drawing programs, it would be easier for me to machine a set.

Tom
Thats a neat machine! The tracks are different in that the hinge point is on the inside with a wider lug, where on the lombard the pins are out at the surface. Changing that would mean changing the sprocket and follower wheels I would think. Its clever how that one has the servos right in the upper arms where the hydraulic pistons would be.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on October 28, 2016, 01:30:08 PM
You are right. After another look, I better stay with what is there.

That will be a neat way to weed the garden ... while sitting on the porch with cookies ... or stinking hoppies ... or something.

Tom
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 28, 2016, 02:45:18 PM
You are right. After another look, I better stay with what is there.

That will be a neat way to weed the garden ... while sitting on the porch with cookies ... or stinking hoppies ... or something.

Tom

Are the printed parts strong enough to actually dig?
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on October 28, 2016, 06:25:44 PM
You are right. After another look, I better stay with what is there.

That will be a neat way to weed the garden ... while sitting on the porch with cookies ... or stinking hoppies ... or something.

Tom

Are the printed parts strong enough to actually dig?

In soft dirt or sand ... yes. With a metal bucket, probably even in a bit harder stuff. Follow this link ... http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:50110/#files ...
Should be the list of the files for this machine. Second file from the bottom of the list ... work.mp4 ... it is a video of the machine digging.

Tom
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 28, 2016, 07:53:22 PM
I got on a roll today, and finished up the first side of all the tracks:
(https://s5.postimg.org/mskh7ac5j/IMG_8538.jpg)

So, on to the second side - shifted the starting position of the table over one slot width, worked out the new pattern (which has the ends a notch and a triple-slot in the middle to leave room for the sprocket to engage), and cut a test piece:
(https://s5.postimg.org/fdv5ewq9z/IMG_8539.jpg)
And test fit one of the other plates against it - fits fine!
(https://s5.postimg.org/68msl1mvb/IMG_8541.jpg)
As mentioned before, note that the ends of the slots are now rounded, that will be squared off in a later pass with the jig swung up vertically. Once they are squared off, the plates will move in closer to each other. For now, another couple hours worth of slot cutting (each plate takes probably a minute per side, not bad but the quantity of them makes it take a while given rests to let the fingers/hands rest up).
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on October 29, 2016, 01:35:55 AM
That is a LOT of cutting Chris. The fit looks spot on though. This is one of those jobs where CNC would be nice but you are almost as fast in manual mode :)

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 29, 2016, 02:25:24 AM
That is a LOT of cutting Chris. The fit looks spot on though. This is one of those jobs where CNC would be nice but you are almost as fast in manual mode :)

Bill

Thanks Bill! Even with CNC you would have to stay there and change parts, clear chips, etc. Doing these manually really isn't taking that long, and the results are so worth it. The spacing is making it straightforward, 1/8 mill for 1/8" slot, fingers are 1/8" too, so start at zero, turn in/out 4-1/2 turns, move down 5 turns, repeat. For opposite side, reset zero at 2-1/2 turns over once, and same process again. Its only a couple hours of shop time for the whole set.
Things will get interesting when I get to the drive and roller chains. To reproduce them accurately to the original will take a lot of time, but those are the details I love in a true scale model. Like the details in this ship model...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on October 29, 2016, 03:00:17 AM
That is a LOT of cutting Chris. The fit looks spot on though. This is one of those jobs where CNC would be nice but you are almost as fast in manual mode :)

Bill

Thanks Bill! Even with CNC you would have to stay there and change parts, clear chips, etc. Doing these manually really isn't taking that long, and the results are so worth it. The spacing is making it straightforward, 1/8 mill for 1/8" slot, fingers are 1/8" too, so start at zero, turn in/out 4-1/2 turns, move down 5 turns, repeat. For opposite side, reset zero at 2-1/2 turns over once, and same process again. Its only a couple hours of shop time for the whole set.
Things will get interesting when I get to the drive and roller chains. To reproduce them accurately to the original will take a lot of time, but those are the details I love in a true scale model. Like the details in this ship model...

I suppose you knocked out that ship on coffee break!  :Lol:

Now that you posted the picture of that beautiful model.........we need more details about it......lots of details!  :)

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 29, 2016, 03:24:35 AM
That is a LOT of cutting Chris. The fit looks spot on though. This is one of those jobs where CNC would be nice but you are almost as fast in manual mode :)

Bill

Thanks Bill! Even with CNC you would have to stay there and change parts, clear chips, etc. Doing these manually really isn't taking that long, and the results are so worth it. The spacing is making it straightforward, 1/8 mill for 1/8" slot, fingers are 1/8" too, so start at zero, turn in/out 4-1/2 turns, move down 5 turns, repeat. For opposite side, reset zero at 2-1/2 turns over once, and same process again. Its only a couple hours of shop time for the whole set.
Things will get interesting when I get to the drive and roller chains. To reproduce them accurately to the original will take a lot of time, but those are the details I love in a true scale model. Like the details in this ship model...

I suppose you knocked out that ship on coffee break!  :Lol:

Now that you posted the picture of that beautiful model.........we need more details about it......lots of details!  :)

Jim

Okay, you want details, here are details!

Actually that one was built over a period of almost 10 years, it kept getting interupted with other projects, from carvings to full size sailboats. It is a French 74-gun ship, Napoleonic era. I was up in Maine on vacation and in a used book store came across a 4-volume set of books published about the 74 gun ship by the French national maritime museum. The books were large format, about 9"x12", couple inches thick each, and comprised a full set of plans for the ship, down to every timber. Almost every page is a fold-out sheet, very detailed - just amazing stuff. Small detail was that it was written in French, which I did not read or speak, but there was not a lot of text anyway, mainly part names which were not hard to translate. The model was built to the same scale as most of the drawings, it came out approximately 46" long, all scratch built (yes, 74 canon barrels, carriages, etc to make!). Partway through the project I found a set of the same books in English, and sold the French ones. Due to the size of the ship, I only built up to the top of the lower masts, otherwise it would have been so large that building a case for it would have been a bit impractical. It was set on a base like a launching way in a shipyard, and finished simaler to how an Admiralty model would have been done, with most of the hull planking omitted to show the construction details of the hull. The model was finished in 2007 - biggest one I have done to date (other than the 1:1 boats!). Needless to say I have been building ship models for a LOT more years than I have been building engines - started as a kid.

Here are a few more photos of it:
(https://s5.postimg.org/4jiaqpwjr/100_1114.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/4tpta2b5z/100_1014.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/jgm6dzkef/100_0994.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/l9tog1uyv/100_0995.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/7hf9kf47b/100_1013.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/gdq1ocutj/100_1014.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/6hoyopp1j/100_1021.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/u9ya08r2f/100_1034.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/f2iafvz7r/100_1078.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on October 29, 2016, 05:56:56 AM
Oh wow...........that's an incredible model Chris! Especially considering how you came across the plans.

Thanks for the details and pictures.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on October 29, 2016, 09:34:02 AM
DAM that's nice!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: fumopuc on October 29, 2016, 10:16:09 AM
Hi Chris, I do like your Lombard Hauler project very much. I will follow with big interest. I am also impressed by the "Shay" type concept of this hauler.
By the way, nice sailboat.
Lombard HaulerLombard Hauler
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on October 29, 2016, 12:17:38 PM
Some folk are just flat out good at everything they do! What a superb job on the ship! Gorgeous!

Tom
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: scc on October 29, 2016, 02:06:21 PM
A stunning ship model.... Well done indeed :NotWorthy:         Terry


(And I'm following along on the Lombard and loving that too.)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on October 29, 2016, 05:58:14 PM
Damn son you been busy! Quiet impressive work Chris with so much amazing talent. I will definitely be following along on this build....... :ThumbsUp:


 :popcorn:
Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Johnmcc69 on October 29, 2016, 06:33:12 PM
Superb work Chris! (on ship & Lombard)
 Any thoughts on the engine you'll use?
Will it be like the Shay or a horizontal type?

 John
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on October 29, 2016, 06:42:52 PM
Simply exquisite on the ship model Chris!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 29, 2016, 09:34:38 PM
Thanks guys! That kind of detail from the ship model is what I am hoping to do on the Lombard engine as well, considering the level of detail in all the photos and videos that the museum has posted about their Lombard - they have lots where they zoomed in on specific parts, with someone holding up a ruler to it. Can't get a whole lot better than that without having original factory blueprints (would kill for those!).
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 29, 2016, 09:38:40 PM
Superb work Chris! (on ship & Lombard)
 Any thoughts on the engine you'll use?
Will it be like the Shay or a horizontal type?

 John

I am going to try and replicate the one at the museum, which has the two horizontal engines. The vertical Shay-style ones existed in two places on these haulers:
1) The original prototype that Al Lombard built, he later switched to the horizontal engines for the actual production ones
2) The ones built by the Phoenix company under patent license from Lombard were all the vertical engines, and they also had a shaft drive to the track assemblies, and the tracks were laid out a bit differently.

Maybe someday I'll do the Phoenix variant as well, unless we can get one of you guys to model that instead!   :stickpoke:   There are also existing Phoenix engines still running, so there are good details on them too. Hint. Hint.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 29, 2016, 10:58:43 PM
Two reasons for this update, since I have had no shop time today anyway:
1) To show the first two track plates meshing better than the last update
2) To test out a different photo hosting site, PhotoBucket, which lots of you use. The one I had started with a couple weeks ago, PostImage, is having money/access problems with their internet provider, and according to their home page they may go under. So, I am being prepared by setting up an alternate hosting account, hopefully these two pictures come through okay. I hope PostImage stays, or I need to go back and re-link a few dozen pictures...

Again, as mentioned before, the slots in the links still will get another pass with the jig held vertical to square the bottoms of the slots so the parts fully mesh. Anyway, here are the test images...

(https://s5.postimg.org/oi7ckkw07/IMG_8543.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/t2tizifpj/IMG_8542.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: PJPickard on October 30, 2016, 01:13:54 PM
WOW! Great project! This has been a dream model for me since, as a teen, I first saw them in Live Steam Magazine in the 70's. Do you have those issues?
Looking forward to more of this.

Paul
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: kvom on October 30, 2016, 01:18:00 PM
To paraphrase Mr. Natural, "keep on trackin!"   :old:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 30, 2016, 02:40:44 PM
WOW! Great project! This has been a dream model for me since, as a teen, I first saw them in Live Steam Magazine in the 70's. Do you have those issues?
Looking forward to more of this.

Paul
I had been looking for something special for a big build, and instantly fell in love with the Lombard on first seeing it in a post here not long ago.

I did some searching around two weeks ago and found the old issues of Live Steam magazine on ebay, where there was a 6 part article at end of 1975 and early 1976, great stuff.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 30, 2016, 02:41:47 PM
To paraphrase Mr. Natural, "keep on trackin!"   :old:

Lets see, rollin, rolling isn't right, how bout clankin, clankin!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 30, 2016, 03:38:01 PM
First batch of track parts with both sides having slots milled, gives a good idea of what they will look like. This is about the length of the track between centers of the sprocket wheels. Few more batches to go...
(https://s5.postimg.org/nh73vgf0n/IMG_8544.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 30, 2016, 10:15:08 PM
And a few more batches done on the track plates, just 21 more in the bin to go.... Glad I made some extra ones, so far have botched 2.
Easy to get distracted and miscount turns when doing an odd pattern over and over. Easy to get distracted and miscount turns when doing an odd pattern over and over. Easy to get distracted and miscount turns when doing an odd pattern over and over....!!   :ROFL:

(https://s5.postimg.org/5gxwr2mtj/IMG_8545.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/uo8srbpxj/IMG_8546.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on October 30, 2016, 10:30:18 PM
As they say over in Nashville : "Now that's putting down a track"  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 30, 2016, 10:33:08 PM
As they say over in Nashville : "Now that's putting down a track"  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Cletus

Maybe I should take them outside in the mud and "make tracks"!!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on October 30, 2016, 10:40:16 PM
And a few more batches done on the track plates, just 21 more in the bin to go.... Glad I made some extra ones, so far have botched 2.
Easy to get distracted and miscount turns when doing an odd pattern over and over. Easy to get distracted and miscount turns when doing an odd pattern over and over. Easy to get distracted and miscount turns when doing an odd pattern over and over....!!   :ROFL:



Take a break Chris, have a drink even...It doesn't pay to get yourself into a rut... :lolb:

The tracks look GREAT though!!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on October 30, 2016, 10:41:01 PM
As they say over in Nashville : "Now that's putting down a track"  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Cletus

Maybe I should take them outside in the mud and "make tracks"!!

You might want to wait until they are all hooked together; otherwise you might loose some.  :lolb:

Looks very nice BTW.


Dave
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 30, 2016, 10:44:48 PM
And a few more batches done on the track plates, just 21 more in the bin to go.... Glad I made some extra ones, so far have botched 2.
Easy to get distracted and miscount turns when doing an odd pattern over and over. Easy to get distracted and miscount turns when doing an odd pattern over and over. Easy to get distracted and miscount turns when doing an odd pattern over and over....!!   :ROFL:



Take a break Chris, have a drink even...It doesn't pay to get yourself into a rut... :lolb:

The tracks look GREAT though!!!

Bill

Mmmmmm.... Cookie!     :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 31, 2016, 02:42:42 PM
Still on track, clanking along on the plates....

Got the rest of the slots cut this morning:
(https://s5.postimg.org/bkfhazd3b/IMG_8547.jpg)
so it was now time to flip the holding jig up vertical and square the bottom of the slots
(https://s5.postimg.org/my20m6nlz/IMG_8548.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/lx1rx26mf/IMG_8549.jpg)

This goes pretty quick, not removing much material, just the arc at the bottom of the slot. As you can see, the plates fit closer together now with one side squared off:
(https://s5.postimg.org/6cue6iwhz/IMG_8550.jpg)
which is more evident when looking at one group (top row) with the slots squared off and another before that is done (bottom row)
(https://s5.postimg.org/rb55iclqf/IMG_8551.jpg)
So, I will crank through the rest of the slots in the next couple shop sessions. The deeper center slot will be done after the rest are done, so I don't have to keep resetting the depth of cut. After all the slots are squared up, it will be time to drill the pivot holes...

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on October 31, 2016, 06:29:26 PM
Damn nice looking tracks there Chris. I would have to say your right on track bud ........ :ThumbsUp:

Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on October 31, 2016, 08:34:56 PM
Boy,  that's almost one of those optical conclusions.  I kept looking for what you squared off ; it's on one side and not the other  :thinking:

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 01, 2016, 01:48:03 AM
Boy,  that's almost one of those optical conclusions.  I kept looking for what you squared off ; it's on one side and not the other  :thinking:

Cletus

That pattern can make your eyeballs spin! No driving for ten minutes after staring at it!   :Lol:

I have half the parts done on the one side of the plates, once the rest are done I'll do the same to the second side of each track, so both sides  of all will be squared off. The longer slot will also be squared off. This step goes quick, with so much metal to remove. The holding jig is working perfectly, totally worth making.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 02, 2016, 12:53:15 AM
Got some time this evening, now that we are past Halloween and I can put away my shop elf costume, and finished up squaring the slot bottom ends on the first side of the rest of the track plates:
(https://s5.postimg.org/dnz3a4rnr/IMG_8552.jpg)
Here is what they look like so far closer up:
(https://s5.postimg.org/a5n3dqqrr/IMG_8553.jpg)
Next is to do the slots on the other sides of the plates. So, moved the starting postion of the mill table over by half the slot spacing, and started milling the other side - here is the test plate with the first two slots milled. Note that this plate is the one I have been using for testing setups, so the second slot from the right on the right has a goof in it, leaving a step.
(https://s5.postimg.org/ktqucl0qv/IMG_8554.jpg)
And here is the first good plate with the second side milled:
(https://s5.postimg.org/72mdadbt3/IMG_8558.jpg)
And the first three up to that stage - note how they fit together much farther.
(https://s5.postimg.org/tda8ac93b/IMG_8557.jpg)
And so begins another couple hours of shop time in the next day or so...!   :hellno:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 02, 2016, 02:30:37 AM
Looks like you're keeping this project on "track" Chris!  :lolb: Hopefully you won't get dis......"track".....ted! Hey..........someone had to say it!

Jim

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 02, 2016, 02:42:03 AM
Looks like you're keeping this project on "track" Chris!  :lolb: Hopefully you won't get dis......"track".....ted! Hey..........someone had to say it!

Jim
The project is gaining track-tion...   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 02, 2016, 09:09:59 PM
More done on the track slots, got the rest of the shallower slots squared up today, and started on doing the deeper center slots, here is a picture of the first handful...
(https://s5.postimg.org/g1lmevvgn/IMG_8561.jpg)
This part goes quite quickly, one more session should have this step all complete, ready to start drilling for the pivots, tomorrow.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on November 02, 2016, 10:31:36 PM
Now,  that's much better on my eyes . I don't feel like Sunday morning at Woodstock  :lolb: :lolb:  Nice work  :ThumbsUp:

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 02, 2016, 10:41:45 PM
Now,  that's much better on my eyes . I don't feel like Sunday morning at Woodstock  :lolb: :lolb:  Nice work  :ThumbsUp:

Cletus

If you go back to that earlier picture and stare at it long enough, you will see a sailboat... Or barf...   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 02, 2016, 11:40:39 PM
I went in to do some more, and flew through the rest of the center slots - just doing one in the same position on each went very quickly (more time spent changing parts than milling them). I think you guys put some magnets in my fingers though, had to stop frequently to pull teensy little splinters of steel out of the pores - ouch! 

So, went through the setup for the pivot pin drilling, and did the first couple holes, starting on the test/spare pieces. The first one was a little off, made a minor adjustment, and the position looked good so I drilled two plates, starting with spot drilling
(https://s5.postimg.org/ykzwsjf2f/IMG_8562.jpg)
and then drilling through with a 3/32 bit:
(https://s5.postimg.org/x789x8ft3/IMG_8567.jpg)
Having the slots there makes the drilling go easily, no need to back out to clear chips every couple turns, just some oil on the bit and it went right through.

After test fitting a piece of the 3/32 rod that will become the pivot pins, and finding that it was too tight a fit, I redrilled with a #41, which is 2 thou larger, now it is a nice slip fit, and will let the plates hinge easily.
(https://s5.postimg.org/o0pz9yakn/IMG_8568.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/gys1nr6yv/IMG_8569.jpg)

Enough for one day, some excellent progress - more tomorrow...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on November 03, 2016, 12:17:38 AM
Excellent progress indeed Chris.   :popcorn:

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Captain Jerry on November 03, 2016, 04:14:04 AM
Jaw dropping!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on November 03, 2016, 10:01:52 AM
Now you just need some advice from Steamer on proper dirt - trackin technique.

Tom
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 03, 2016, 01:11:50 PM
Now you just need some advice from Steamer on proper dirt - trackin technique.

Tom
So I can get the Lombard in a two-track drift on the corners?! New version of sprint cars, 30 haulers on a dirt track...  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 03, 2016, 01:37:44 PM
Now you just need some advice from Steamer on proper dirt - trackin technique.

Tom
So I can get the Lombard in a two-track drift on the corners?! New version of sprint cars, 30 haulers on a dirt track...  :Lol:

I'm thinking that might be about as exciting as watching the "snail" races!  :lolb: More noise though!

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 03, 2016, 05:25:06 PM
Now you just need some advice from Steamer on proper dirt - trackin technique.

Tom
So I can get the Lombard in a two-track drift on the corners?! New version of sprint cars, 30 haulers on a dirt track...  :Lol:

I'm thinking that might be about as exciting as watching the "snail" races!  :lolb: More noise though!

Jim
And they're coming around the third turn.....
......
Yup, the third turn..
.....
Here they...yawn...come...
 :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on November 03, 2016, 06:17:04 PM
 :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 03, 2016, 09:01:13 PM
Starting to look like tracks now - got the first couple dozen plates drilled,
(https://s5.postimg.org/qarvpxnnr/IMG_8570.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/7whclybd3/IMG_8571.jpg)
and just had to link up a handfull to see how they look
(https://s5.postimg.org/t7ewq7thj/IMG_8572.jpg)
Could make a watchband, though a really heavy, non-stretchy one!
(https://s5.postimg.org/y7ccy5z47/IMG_8573.jpg)
Here is a bit more of how they will look
(https://s5.postimg.org/7njrw0ykn/IMG_8574.jpg)

So, on to more drilling....

Though while I was working on the tracks, apparently the shop elves where building their new toy. Hope I don't hear it clanking around all night, or I might have to Delete him...   :Lol:
(https://s5.postimg.org/69s50pzbb/IMG_8575.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 03, 2016, 09:57:36 PM
Playing with the tracks, a bit stiff to flex, went back and went up a drill size, much better! Will do the rest with the larger size.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 03, 2016, 11:07:35 PM
This is a great build. I am following along. I have thought different times about making some kind of tracked model, but the sheer volume of work in making the tracks has kept me away from one.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 03, 2016, 11:12:49 PM
This is a great build. I am following along. I have thought different times about making some kind of tracked model, but the sheer volume of work in making the tracks has kept me away from one.---Brian
They seem like a lot of work, but with the right jigs it actually goes right along. I've been doing about 1/2 hour sessions a couple times a day, too long at once and the repetition causes mistakes as my mind wanders off into another room.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 05, 2016, 11:59:31 PM
Milestone reached - all the track plates are drilled for the pivot pins and test fit together:
(https://s5.postimg.org/3jzunwttz/IMG_8576.jpg)
They flex nice and smooth, and can roll them around using fingers as end sprockets. That is quite enough drilling/deburring/smoothing for now, time for a cookie!
  :whoohoo:
Next up will be milling the shapes in the surfaces of the plates for the rollers on the inside, and the traction ridge on the outside. Then I can figure out how to do the ends on the pivot pins...

Some of the things that the brain works out while doing all this repetitive crank turning: milled nearly 16 linear feet of slots, 7 feet of holes drilled, 28 feet of corners rounded over, 7.5 feet of plate ends squared up... Yikes! 
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on November 06, 2016, 12:14:49 AM
That is quite a nice watch band you got there Chris, A bit heavy perhaps but nice!!  ;)  Looking forward to seeing what is up next.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 06, 2016, 12:18:53 AM
That is quite a nice watch band you got there Chris, A bit heavy perhaps but nice!!  ;)  Looking forward to seeing what is up next.

Bill
Not very stretchy either!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on November 06, 2016, 12:22:54 AM
How much clearance is there now with the larger sized pin holes? Interested to see how you will retain them in the tracks.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 06, 2016, 12:34:53 AM
How much clearance is there now with the larger sized pin holes? Interested to see how you will retain them in the tracks.

Bill
The holes are a few thou larger than the pins - lets them pivot easy, plus gives the assembly the ability to flex a bit. The pins will be peened over at one end, then a washer held by that. The pin is slid through the track, then another washer, with a cotter pin to hold it on. At least that is pretty much how the real thing is made, I think they welded or forged the disc on the inner end rather than peening it. I will need to make a little clamp bar to peen over the ends to without bending/marring them, and also a drill jig for the cross hole for the cotter. I've seen other builds here that used the drill jig method for centering small holes in round bar, this will be my chance to try doing the same.

Here are a couple pictures of the real thing:
(https://s5.postimg.org/y4g7xdz9j/lombard20.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/elbmo10hz/lombard18.jpg)


Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on November 06, 2016, 12:47:55 AM
That's really cool Chris!  Its almost like completing a project on its own!  But I can't wait to see the rest unfold.

I'm still in line for those plans!  And the book :)

Kim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 06, 2016, 01:04:37 AM
That's really cool Chris!  Its almost like completing a project on its own!  But I can't wait to see the rest unfold.

I'm still in line for those plans!  And the book :)

Kim
Thanks Kim! Its always a good feeling when a subassembly comes together enough to move. And I am toying with writing up a book of plans/build on this project, since it is such an interesting cross of locomotive, traction engine, and bulldozer. There is a fair amount of information out there, but it is scattered among articles, books, and websites - I was not even aware these existed till a couple of months ago, and was instantly enthralled by them. I was not able to visit the museum in Maine for the last run this year, but am planning to go there in the spring - only a 9 1/2 hour drive from here, but worth it!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on November 06, 2016, 01:07:25 AM
That is one heck of a cotter pin!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 06, 2016, 01:13:32 AM
That is one heck of a cotter pin!!

Bill
Or a very very small finger...!  Always wanted to get one of those giant penny paperweights to put in the photos.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: vcutajar on November 06, 2016, 12:24:33 PM
WOW. Lovely job on the tracks Chris.

Vince
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 06, 2016, 01:43:58 PM
WOW. Lovely job on the tracks Chris.

Vince

Thanks Vince!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 06, 2016, 02:04:56 PM
With the pivot holes done, its time to move on to the shaping of the inner and outer faces of the tracks. The inside face has a recessed groove down either side for the roller chain to run along (thanks to Captain Jerry for pointing that detail out, I had missed it when laying out the part originally). On the outside, there is a ridge down the center that gives the track more track-tion. I will start with the inside groove, since once the outside ridge is cut the plates wont lay flat in the jig. There is also a lug at the center of the plate on the inside that engages with the sprocket wheel between the pivot bars - I am not sure if I am going to include that detail, I need to spend some more time with the pictures of the real tracks to figure that detail out.

So, on to the milling. With the holding jig back down flat, and the plate held lengthwise, I put in a 5/16" end mill (worked out perfectly for the groove size), and set it for a 0.025" deep cut. One pass back/forth, and the groove is done, same on other end of the plate and on to the next part... Repeat for the next hour...
(https://s5.postimg.org/fzwkhnn5z/IMG_8581.jpg)
Here is what the first couple look like, the ones behind them are not grooved yet.
(https://s5.postimg.org/ad07k6knb/IMG_8582.jpg)
And the first track's worth grooved - time for a break, will come back and do the other half of the plates later. They go quick, about a minute per plate.
(https://s5.postimg.org/91sgbpp1j/IMG_8587.jpg)

For you guys with the Sherline lathe/mills, one side upgrade I have been wanting to do on the mill was to change out the original handwheels (2" diameter with zero resettable dials) with the larger 2-1/2" version, which I already had on the long axis on the lathe. It does not seem like a big difference, but it makes a big difference when do a lot of cranking - easier to turn, better fine control. But, I had been choking on the price - $42 apiece for a simple chunk of aluminum. While stocking up on the metal needed for this build, I had found a 3' offcut of 2-1/2" aluminum round bar at a very cheap price, so I cut off some discs and made up the two handwheels. The dimensions for the narrow end where they dial is were copied from the originals, a simple handle on a pivot was added, and for about $2 in materials the new handwheels were done - work very well. Here are a couple pics of the old and new handwheel. If you are using the smaller ones, I highly recommend making up the larger set.
(https://s5.postimg.org/hhi0t7rwn/IMG_8583.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/k03ptwdmv/IMG_8584.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: RonGinger on November 06, 2016, 03:15:27 PM
How about a power feed for the Sherline? My idea is to drill and tap the center of the handwheel for an allen cap screw with a 1/4" hex hole. Locktite that into the handwheel, then use a battery powered screwdriver with a hex driver. Just pickup the screwdriver, place it into the allen screw and drive the wheel either way.

I bought a very neat screwdriver to keep on my bench with a countersink in it to debur holes. I found one (Dewalt I think, its yellow and black) that has a gyroscope in it- you place it in the screw and just slightly twist your wrist in the direction you want it to turn- there is no for/rev button to press, just twist your wrist. It works in any direction, pointed straight up, or down or however you need to hold it. It has proven to be very useful.

A power feed is not just easier, it gives a more constant speed and nicer surface finish.

How are you going to finish all those track pieces? I think a short ride  in a tumbler would give them a perfect texture and knock off all the sharp corners. They would look a lot like the original castings.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 06, 2016, 04:20:51 PM
How about a power feed for the Sherline? My idea is to drill and tap the center of the handwheel for an allen cap screw with a 1/4" hex hole. Locktite that into the handwheel, then use a battery powered screwdriver with a hex driver. Just pickup the screwdriver, place it into the allen screw and drive the wheel either way.

I bought a very neat screwdriver to keep on my bench with a countersink in it to debur holes. I found one (Dewalt I think, its yellow and black) that has a gyroscope in it- you place it in the screw and just slightly twist your wrist in the direction you want it to turn- there is no for/rev button to press, just twist your wrist. It works in any direction, pointed straight up, or down or however you need to hold it. It has proven to be very useful.

A power feed is not just easier, it gives a more constant speed and nicer surface finish.

How are you going to finish all those track pieces? I think a short ride  in a tumbler would give them a perfect texture and knock off all the sharp corners. They would look a lot like the original castings.

I was wondering about tumbling them to give them that cast look. I have a vibrating tumbler for cleaning pistol/rifle brass, but I don't think the normal walnut shell media would do more than polish them. What works for smoothing parts like these, some sort of ball bearing media? I draw the line at hand sanding each one, and the shop elves just laughed and rolled off the bench!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 06, 2016, 07:35:37 PM
Coming down the home stretch on the track plates now - got the rest of the inside grooves milled in, and have gotten the setup for the traction ridge on the outside face done. With the holding jig at a slight angle, a ball-end mill is used to cut the shape of the ridge that runs down the center, first from ones side then the other.
(https://s5.postimg.org/3ny9hwop3/IMG_8592.jpg)
Here are the first few cut:
(https://s5.postimg.org/66jyilafb/IMG_8593.jpg)
Now, just a whole lot more of them to do....

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on November 06, 2016, 07:46:02 PM
Looking damn good Chris and the tracks are looking on track bud...... :ThumbsUp:

Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Captain Jerry on November 07, 2016, 02:08:21 AM
Chris

Those tracks look great.  I held my breath while you were drilling those pin holes and due to that, they came out straight and true.  The roller grooves also look good. Your angled approach to the traction bar was an eye opener.  It let you raise a bar where you had no material.  Good outside the box thinking.  By the way, in current terminology, that thing is called a grouser bar or just grouser.   It is pronounced as if the "S" were a "Z".  I don't know when that became common terminology.

I think that you will be fine leaving the drive lug off of the inside face.  Modern crawler tracks are driven by contact with the bushing only with no secondary drive lug.  It will also make calculating the sprocket pitch easier
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 07, 2016, 02:52:36 AM
Chris

Those tracks look great.  I held my breath while you were drilling those pin holes and due to that, they came out straight and true.  The roller grooves also look good. Your angled approach to the traction bar was an eye opener.  It let you raise a bar where you had no material.  Good outside the box thinking.  By the way, in current terminology, that thing is called a grouser bar or just grouser.   It is pronounced as if the "S" were a "Z".  I don't know when that became common terminology.

I think that you will be fine leaving the drive lug off of the inside face.  Modern crawler tracks are driven by contact with the bushing only with no secondary drive lug.  It will also make calculating the sprocket pitch easier
Thanks for the breath holding! It actually went easy, since the gaps let the chips clear so no pecking needed, just needed oil to keep it from overheating. The first couple were a small angle off true, small tweak to the way the jig sat in the vise got it straight. I would drill through a finger section, advance to the next, and start slow to let it effectively center drill a start, then crank through.

If I had thought far enough ahead I would have bought thicker stock, but angling the cut for the grouser gave the right look. I have most of one track milled, just the other half of the plates to do. I am very happy with how well the jig has worked out.

Can you make me a list of proper terms for the track bits? I know all the correct terms for parts on my sailboat, but these terms are new to me! Probably a wiki page somewhere with a diagram...

After the pins are done I will lay out the sprocket, and make a test one (or two, three, ... ) out of wood before making the steel one. I got a deal on a 2' x 3' drop chunk of .120" thick 304 stainless plate that wil be great for the sprockets and the center plate.

Thanks for your help!!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 07, 2016, 02:54:10 AM
Looking damn good Chris and the tracks are looking on track bud...... :ThumbsUp:

Don

Thanks Don!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 07, 2016, 03:23:29 AM
Dang Chris..............with these tracks, you've gone from a wood carver to a metal carver!  :lolb:

The bigger hand wheels came out great! I just added some 2 1/2" 6061 to my next Speedy Metals order. There really is a difference in the feel of 2 1/2" hand wheels vs 2". I like the custom handle as well. Of course the downside is............. now all the plastic handles are going to look like the devil, so you've got to make all new handles!  :LittleDevil:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: fumopuc on November 07, 2016, 04:38:22 AM
Hi Chris, very nice. Jigs and fixtures seems to be a must for this job. The result is fantastic.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Captain Jerry on November 07, 2016, 01:35:32 PM
Chris

Here is a pretty complete discussion of modern crawler tractor tracks.  It is from Dresser Industries but applies to the tracks used on almost all earthmoving equipment.  This track type has a chain link structure with track shoes that bolt to the chain  and is the type used where traction and travel are a major factor.  It is a descendent of the Lombard track  but it is one of two branches in crawler track design.

http://www.tractorparts.com/PDFs/undrcarguide.pdf

The other branch, which is used primarily on large cranes, more closely resembles the Lombard style in that the track shoes are pined together with no separate link.  This type of track is primarily used to provide a stable, low ground pressure base for a rotating platform.  Traction and wear are not a factors because the work site is carefully leveled and dressed and the machine is actually moved slowly, carefully, and rarely.

Here are a couple of pictures of modern crawler crane tracks and you can see how much more closely they resemble the Lombard track.  Notice the prominent drive lug on the inner face of the shoe.  It provides the drive face as well as the track allignment.

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 07, 2016, 02:33:38 PM
Dang Chris..............with these tracks, you've gone from a wood carver to a metal carver!  :lolb:

The bigger hand wheels came out great! I just added some 2 1/2" 6061 to my next Speedy Metals order. There really is a difference in the feel of 2 1/2" hand wheels vs 2". I like the custom handle as well. Of course the downside is............. now all the plastic handles are going to look like the devil, so you've got to make all new handles!  :LittleDevil:

Jim
The larger handles are a lot easier on the fingers, with so much time on the mill lately those small wheels and sharp edged handles were giving me blisters. The core of the handles is a steel bar, turned to leave a retaining lip at the end, and threaded to screw into the wheel with a drop of loctite to keep it in place.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 07, 2016, 02:36:19 PM
Hi Chris, very nice. Jigs and fixtures seems to be a must for this job. The result is fantastic.
I can't imagine making these parts without the jig, possible but so much time would be needed to position correctly and the repeatability would be very hard to accomplish. With the jig, its easy.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 07, 2016, 02:43:15 PM
Chris

Here is a pretty complete discussion of modern crawler tractor tracks.  It is from Dresser Industries but applies to the tracks used on almost all earthmoving equipment.  This track type has a chain link structure with track shoes that bolt to the chain  and is the type used where traction and travel are a major factor.  It is a descendent of the Lombard track  but it is one of two branches in crawler track design.

http://www.tractorparts.com/PDFs/undrcarguide.pdf

The other branch, which is used primarily on large cranes, more closely resembles the Lombard style in that the track shoes are pined together with no separate link.  This type of track is primarily used to provide a stable, low ground pressure base for a rotating platform.  Traction and wear are not a factors because the work site is carefully leveled and dressed and the machine is actually moved slowly, carefully, and rarely.

Here are a couple of pictures of modern crawler crane tracks and you can see how much more closely they resemble the Lombard track.  Notice the prominent drive lug on the inner face of the shoe.  It provides the drive face as well as the track allignment.
That's a great write-up. Neat to see how similar the crane track is too. Its amazing how complex the modern track systems have become. Normally I just see a muddy blob going around at the construction sites! Thanks!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 07, 2016, 04:38:38 PM
Chris

Here is a pretty complete discussion of modern crawler tractor tracks.  It is from Dresser Industries but applies to the tracks used on almost all earthmoving equipment.  This track type has a chain link structure with track shoes that bolt to the chain  and is the type used where traction and travel are a major factor.  It is a descendent of the Lombard track  but it is one of two branches in crawler track design.

http://www.tractorparts.com/PDFs/undrcarguide.pdf (http://www.tractorparts.com/PDFs/undrcarguide.pdf)

The other branch, which is used primarily on large cranes, more closely resembles the Lombard style in that the track shoes are pined together with no separate link.  This type of track is primarily used to provide a stable, low ground pressure base for a rotating platform.  Traction and wear are not a factors because the work site is carefully leveled and dressed and the machine is actually moved slowly, carefully, and rarely.

Here are a couple of pictures of modern crawler crane tracks and you can see how much more closely they resemble the Lombard track.  Notice the prominent drive lug on the inner face of the shoe.  It provides the drive face as well as the track allignment.

Jerry - the first attachment is a .htm type, but I can't seem to get it to open - can you retry it?
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Captain Jerry on November 07, 2016, 05:44:26 PM
Chris, I don't know what happened to the file but it won't open for me either, not even directly on my system.  Here is another attempt at a similar picture.  Chinese version.

http://www.crawlercranesparts.com/images/qie_r1_c1.jpg

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 07, 2016, 07:18:15 PM
Thanks Jerry!

The profiling of the plates for the first track are done, about to start in on the ones for the other half...
(https://s5.postimg.org/9l6qcgv7r/IMG_8594.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/5q3c9wc1z/IMG_8595.jpg)

And last night was another run of our RC submarine group at the local Y pool, here is a quick clip of my Alfa running (other guys were still prepping thiers, not in the water yet).
nY7vFMMLOhE
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Perry on November 07, 2016, 07:30:15 PM
Those tracks looks fantastic !
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 07, 2016, 08:38:51 PM
Those tracks looks fantastic !

Thanks Perry! The parts of this build that are the most challenging for me are the tracks, drive chains, and roller chains - 1 down, 2 to go! 
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 07, 2016, 11:48:33 PM
Another hour in the shop, and the plates for the other track set are fully shaped!
(https://s5.postimg.org/bsaz0e0hz/IMG_8598.jpg)

Next up will be the rollers that go on the pivot pins, in the center of the track in the long slot. Very simple to make, drill a hole in some round bar, and part off to length. Aside from needed a whole handful of them...! That will probably be done in a couple days, lots of other stuff on tap for tomorrow...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Captain Jerry on November 08, 2016, 12:39:08 AM
Tracks look great.  You are really moving along.  Those rollers are called "bushings" in trackspeak.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on November 08, 2016, 12:42:17 AM
Those tracks are just amazing Chris!! Nice job on the larger handwheels too for the Sherline.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on November 08, 2016, 12:48:20 AM
Woooo! Damn Dog you been busy. I.........like......... :Love:


  :popcornsmall:
Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on November 08, 2016, 01:16:28 AM
The tracks are looking very nice Chris!

I was going to comment on the tumbler or vibratory bowl (not sure which you have)? There is a wide variety of ceramic media usually in the form of cones or stars; these are used with a surfactant to vibrate around and deburr your parts. If you are using a vibratory bowl the media and parts need to roll; if there is no rolling action the parts will just wear against each other and you will not be happy with the results. I have had mixed results with my small Burr King vibratory bowl using the ceramic media. It is tricky getting the right amount of liquid to achieve the rolling action.

If you have a tumbler I can't offer much insight to how well it will work. I have a friend who used to make Llama pack frames and he band sawed the parts out of 1/2" aluminum plate then threw them into a home made tumbler that used a 55 gallon plastic drum with sand and gravel for the media. The parts were just fine for the intended purpose. you may need to experiment a little to obtain the finish you are after.

Dave
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 08, 2016, 01:50:31 AM
Tracks look great.  You are really moving along.  Those rollers are called "bushings" in trackspeak.

Gotcha - still looking for a copy of the 'TrackSpeak for Dummies' book! I'm learning... slowly...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 08, 2016, 01:52:54 AM
The tracks are looking very nice Chris!

I was going to comment on the tumbler or vibratory bowl (not sure which you have)? There is a wide variety of ceramic media usually in the form of cones or stars; these are used with a surfactant to vibrate around and deburr your parts. If you are using a vibratory bowl the media and parts need to roll; if there is no rolling action the parts will just wear against each other and you will not be happy with the results. I have had mixed results with my small Burr King vibratory bowl using the ceramic media. It is tricky getting the right amount of liquid to achieve the rolling action.

If you have a tumbler I can't offer much insight to how well it will work. I have a friend who used to make Llama pack frames and he band sawed the parts out of 1/2" aluminum plate then threw them into a home made tumbler that used a 55 gallon plastic drum with sand and gravel for the media. The parts were just fine for the intended purpose. you may need to experiment a little to obtain the finish you are after.

Dave
Mine is the vibratory type, use it mainly for polishing rifle/pistol brass, usually with walnut media or the like. Worth some experiments with these parts, may not get anywhere but fun to try it.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on November 08, 2016, 02:03:47 AM
You have probably seen the rolling action with your brass and walnut shell media; this is what you need to see with your steel parts and what ever media you choose to experiment with.
I have been wanting to try using the walnut shell media that has the red rouge added to it for deburring and polishing tiny brass model engine parts; have you tried this?



Dave
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 08, 2016, 02:10:29 AM
You have probably seen the rolling action with your brass and walnut shell media; this is what you need to see with your steel parts and what ever media you choose to experiment with.
I have been wanting to try using the walnut shell media that has the red rouge added to it for deburring and polishing tiny brass model engine parts; have you tried this?



Dave
No - just used it for the shells so far, don't have any of the rouge stuff, just the plain media.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 08, 2016, 03:02:54 AM

How are you going to finish all those track pieces? I think a short ride  in a tumbler would give them a perfect texture and knock off all the sharp corners. They would look a lot like the original castings.

I was wondering about tumbling them to give them that cast look. I have a vibrating tumbler for cleaning pistol/rifle brass, but I don't think the normal walnut shell media would do more than polish them. What works for smoothing parts like these, some sort of ball bearing media? I draw the line at hand sanding each one, and the shop elves just laughed and rolled off the bench!

Chris,
How about using a portable sandblaster to give them a cast look: http://www.harborfreight.com/portable-abrasive-blaster-kit-37025.html

I've got a similar one that I've used through the years for larger parts. I'm going to try it on some small parts sometime, but I think it might work good. What kind of steel are you using for the tracks?

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 08, 2016, 03:15:08 AM

How are you going to finish all those track pieces? I think a short ride  in a tumbler would give them a perfect texture and knock off all the sharp corners. They would look a lot like the original castings.

I was wondering about tumbling them to give them that cast look. I have a vibrating tumbler for cleaning pistol/rifle brass, but I don't think the normal walnut shell media would do more than polish them. What works for smoothing parts like these, some sort of ball bearing media? I draw the line at hand sanding each one, and the shop elves just laughed and rolled off the bench!

Chris,
How about using a portable sandblaster to give them a cast look: http://www.harborfreight.com/portable-abrasive-blaster-kit-37025.html

I've got a similar one that I've used through the years for larger parts. I'm going to try it on some small parts sometime, but I think it might work good. What kind of steel are you using for the tracks?

Jim
Would that kind of setup do a good job of deburring too? The ball end mill left small burs every time it passed the edge of the fingers. I have a friend who has a small tabletop sandblasting rig that I can borrow time on. My compressor is too small a volume for it.

The steel parts, including the tracks, on this build will mostly be 303 stainless, a few 304 parts that come out of the plate stock I have.

To do some experiments, I am picking up some ceramic media for the tumbler to see what it does, if anything. If nothing, I can always throw in a shop gnome. Not any of my elves, a buddy has some gnomes that hang around his production shop!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 08, 2016, 03:43:55 AM

How are you going to finish all those track pieces? I think a short ride  in a tumbler would give them a perfect texture and knock off all the sharp corners. They would look a lot like the original castings.

I was wondering about tumbling them to give them that cast look. I have a vibrating tumbler for cleaning pistol/rifle brass, but I don't think the normal walnut shell media would do more than polish them. What works for smoothing parts like these, some sort of ball bearing media? I draw the line at hand sanding each one, and the shop elves just laughed and rolled off the bench!

Chris,
How about using a portable sandblaster to give them a cast look: http://www.harborfreight.com/portable-abrasive-blaster-kit-37025.html

I've got a similar one that I've used through the years for larger parts. I'm going to try it on some small parts sometime, but I think it might work good. What kind of steel are you using for the tracks?

Jim
Would that kind of setup do a good job of deburring too? The ball end mill left small burs every time it passed the edge of the fingers. I have a friend who has a small tabletop sandblasting rig that I can borrow time on. My compressor is too small a volume for it.

The steel parts, including the tracks, on this build will mostly be 303 stainless, a few 304 parts that come out of the plate stock I have.

To do some experiments, I am picking up some ceramic media for the tumbler to see what it does, if anything. If nothing, I can always throw in a shop gnome. Not any of my elves, a buddy has some gnomes that hang around his production shop!

I've got some 303. I'll mill a piece so it leaves a burr and give it a try.
Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 08, 2016, 04:53:46 PM
Started on cutting the bushings for the center of the pivot rods on the tracks. Drilled the end of a longer rod, then parted off to length.
(https://s5.postimg.org/9dnotp9mv/IMG_8599.jpg)

Few swipes of a file to remove the bur that the parting tool leaves at the edge of the hole, and ready for test fit. A little hard to see in the pic, the bushings are on the rods next to the tweezers, the rod above that has no bushing yet.
(https://s5.postimg.org/43iq2epdz/IMG_8600.jpg)

A little easier to see in this picture - the upper rods have bushings, the lower does not
(https://s5.postimg.org/fh59dlzwn/IMG_8602.jpg)

I did not have the 5/32" rod that I want to use for the bushings, so this test was done with 3/16" rod, its a little large, so I have some 5/32" rod on the way. In the meantime, I will skip over to working on the pivot rod ends.

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 09, 2016, 01:09:20 AM
As I mentioned in last post, I am waiting on some 5/32" steel stock, so I am skipping over to the pivot pins in the meantime. They need to be peened over on one end to enlarge the diameter, so for that I got out my pin holding block. This is a pair of steel bars, with two locating pins fixed on one side and a slightly loose fit on the other, and with a series of different size holes drilled through the joint to allow a good hold on different size stock.
(https://s5.postimg.org/43nbg5err/IMG_8609.jpg)
The outside edges are stepped to let the blocks sit at the top of the vise jaws without slipping down as the pin is hammered.
(https://s5.postimg.org/7brst711j/IMG_8611.jpg)
To use, a pin is set in the appropriate hole, projecting up slightly - amount determines the thickness/width of the resulting head.
(https://s5.postimg.org/8a85vhedj/IMG_8605.jpg)
With the vise tightened down, the head is rounded over and flattened down with a ball peen hammer. Its a little hard to see in the photo, the camera will only focus so close, but it is still projecting above the top of the block and is widened out.
(https://s5.postimg.org/42ddmqcxz/IMG_8606.jpg)
And here is the pin set in place on the track - again hard to see, but the end is about 15-20 thou larger than the rest of the pin, so it cannot slide into the hole in the track.
(https://s5.postimg.org/xez68wdtz/IMG_8604.jpg)
I still need to make a small disc to go under this head, giving a wider surface against the track. It looks to me in the photos of the real engine that this was how they made the full size ones so that is what I am going to try and duplicate. I am also going to experiment with putting the disc in place before peening the head over, and see if it will lock it into place, more like the rove on a rivet. In the photos of the real engine, I can see the joint between the peened over head and the disc on a lot of them - they probably hot swaged it in place. There is also another loose disc at the other end held from sliding off by a cotter pin like I showed in an earlier post.
So, lots of fiddly small work this coming week!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on November 09, 2016, 11:43:57 AM
You have just solved one of my problems with the excavator tracks. I will make up one of those tools and do my track pins the same way.
Tom
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Roger B on November 09, 2016, 01:33:46 PM
There's a lot of work in those tracks, but it looks like you have got it sorted  :ThumbsUp: Still following along  :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 09, 2016, 01:38:57 PM
You have just solved one of my problems with the excavator tracks. I will make up one of those tools and do my track pins the same way.
Tom
Cool! It does take some experimenting to find which size hole gives the best grip. Make sure you file the corners of the holes on the inside faces slightly to keep it from leaving a mark on the pin. Years ago I had made an arrow puller with the same setup, with the holes lined with thin rubber mat, to pull ones that missed the target and went into the wood target holder or a tree.
Later I am going to experiment with putting the washer disc on the top of the holder before peening the end to see how well it locks the two together.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 09, 2016, 01:40:54 PM
There's a lot of work in those tracks, but it looks like you have got it sorted  :ThumbsUp: Still following along  :wine1:

Thanks Roger! Very pleased with how they are coming out, figured it would be best to start with them in case they didn't. The rest of the track mechanism is going to be interesting too, there is a whole engines worth of parts in that assembly before I even get to the main frame.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 09, 2016, 02:47:49 PM
Okay, I think I have a winner in how to do the inside ends of the track pins. I turned down some steel bar to 5/32" (I have some 5/32 ordered, should be here in a few days) and drilled/parted off a thin washer of it (the parting tool was thicker than the finished part). I put that onto a pin and positioned it in the peening jig with a short length of the pin sticking up:
(https://s5.postimg.org/ctu1ruryf/IMG_8612.jpg)
then hammered it over and down with a ball peen hammer
(https://s5.postimg.org/dxe63tclj/IMG_8613.jpg)
which made it look just like the pictures I have seen of the real track pins
(https://s5.postimg.org/qq2a3qo7b/IMG_8615.jpg)
And here it is in place on the track:
(https://s5.postimg.org/at3i70vt3/IMG_8616.jpg)
I like the looks of that setup - I think that is how I am going to do the rest of them.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on November 09, 2016, 06:01:27 PM
That looks good Chris, but that is a lot of washers to make  :o   ;)

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 09, 2016, 07:30:53 PM
That looks good Chris, but that is a lot of washers to make  :o   ;)

Bill

Only about 120 of them....   :paranoia:   Thats why I'm waiting for the right diameter rod (tomorrow) to make the rest, so its just drilling/parting that needs to be done.

Tricky part is keeping them from jumping off the end of the bar as the parting tool breaks through and getting lost in a corner or pile of swarf - have been holding a small rod in the hole to control them.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 09, 2016, 07:45:18 PM
Another jig to make - this one is to drill the ends of the track pivot rods for the cotter pins. Teeny little cotter pins! I started with an offcut of steel flat stock, squared up the ends and drilled a close fit hole for the pivot rods down the end.
(https://s5.postimg.org/6nsll3y13/IMG_8617.jpg)
Then, with the table locked down in the forward/back direction, turned the bar on its side and drilled through with a #55 drill at the position that the hole in the rod needs to be. The rod is held from sliding in too far by the rivetted on washer on the end - this distance is the width of the track plate plus thickness of the washer plus a little over half the diameter of the hole. From here on, its just a matter of insert the next pin, drop of oil, and run the drill through the hole into the pin, likethis:
(https://s5.postimg.org/xa52a3287/IMG_8618.jpg)
leaving a nicely centered hole in the right place:
(https://s5.postimg.org/rn8pclzpj/IMG_8619.jpg)
If the hole in the jig wears and drifts while making all these pins, I can just mill off the end of the jig and drill a new side hole. With the pin test fit in place, and a washer and a cotter pin bent up out of some fine steel wire, here is the result:
(https://s5.postimg.org/4yoka5onb/IMG_8621.jpg)
And here is the whole assembly, with a center bushing, pivot rod, washers, and cotter pin all in place:
(https://s5.postimg.org/b0w70nd3b/IMG_8624.jpg)
One down, about 59 to go....
Now, before I do final assembly on them all, I am going to try tumbling the track plates with some ceramic media to debur them better, will have some of that tomorrow too. So a little experimenting, then several days of cutting small bits of metal to go for some finished tracks.  It has actually gotten to this stage quicker than I had expected - gotta love jigs and sharp tools!

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on November 09, 2016, 08:26:16 PM
Chris, I think you are right to go with tumbling rather than sandblasting. If you get aggressive enough with the sandblasting to remove burrs and tool marks you will likely be rounding over some sharper edges you want to remain. The tumbling may do a little of that too depending on the media but it takes longer and you can stop the process at any point. I prefer bead blasting for just adding a nice matte finish to metal and not to remove metal. You may well find that the tumbling is enough on its own.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 09, 2016, 08:27:54 PM
Chris, I think you are right to go with tumbling rather than sandblasting. If you get aggressive enough with the sandblasting to remove burrs and tool marks you will likely be rounding over some sharper edges you want to remain. The tumbling may do a little of that too depending on the media but it takes longer and you can stop the process at any point. I prefer bead blasting for just adding a nice matte finish to metal and not to remove metal. You may well find that the tumbling is enough on its own.

Bill

Good to know - I will post some pics after some experiments tomorrow.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 10, 2016, 09:36:20 PM
I was able to lay my hands on some ceramic tumbling media, this is a 3/8" triangular shape media, here is what it looks like:
(https://s5.postimg.org/6qm4isxdz/Tumbling_Media.jpg)
It may not be the ideal size for the small openings in the parts I am doing, but it is what I could get quickly. If anyone knows of a better size/shape/etc that is available in small quantities (some places sell it in barrel sizes only), please let me know. I put it in the machine (a vibrating style tumbler that I have for reloading brass) for a while, after an hour it was looking quite good. Most of the burs are gone, and the surface is looking much more even. Here are a couple of pictures of the before (bottom) and after (top) parts - the overhanging burs are gone, and the surface finish is much more pleasing, more like a bead-blasted finish.
(https://s5.postimg.org/tlkf7pyiv/IMG_8627.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/ymrt935zb/IMG_8629.jpg)

I have the second half of the parts in now, making a nice racket down in the basement. Also, the round stock for the bushings and the washers arrived a little while ago (my UPS guy is used to bringing heavy tubes/boxes of metal, when loading the truck and gets to a really havy mailing tube, he knows its for me!), so I will be able to start knocking out piles of those parts too.

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Admiral_dk on November 10, 2016, 09:41:44 PM
Quite an improvement in the looks department after tumbling  :praise2:

You are on quite a streak here with another great long build - only problem, I'm using way to much  :popcorn: because of you ;)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 10, 2016, 09:44:17 PM
Quite an improvement in the looks department after tumbling  :praise2:

You are on quite a streak here with another great long build - only problem, I'm using way to much  :popcorn: because of you ;)
Because of this forum I've taken to buying the popcorn kernels in bulk bags - keeps very well in the fridge till needed! 
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Johnmcc69 on November 11, 2016, 12:13:13 AM
Looking real good Chris! I think the finish looks really good. I like the way you created the center "lug/Grouser" with the ball end mill. It's definitely worth the time spent making good jigs & fixtures. You'll have quite the collection of them when this project is complete.

 Really nice work!  :ThumbsUp:

 John
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 11, 2016, 12:17:39 AM
One other background task that I FINALLY brought up to (one of) the front burners is actually sitting down and going through the tutorials to learn the Autodesk Fusion 360 CAD package, and got my first part made in it. Here is a render:
(https://s5.postimg.org/e959rfoqv/Track_Plate_Render.jpg)
Amazing what can happen when you actually RTFM.  I had been poking at the package for a while without going through thier tutorial videos, that was a mistake, wasted a lot of time. Still a bunch to learn about making assemblies and whatnot, but so far so good - this part took about 1-1/2 hours, intermixed with the videos, so actually pretty quick to do. I had a lot of experience with a commercial animation package years ago, so the modelling in 3D this way was not too bad a learning curve.

This should make the dimensioned drawings for the rest of the parts much better than the way I had been doing it. Still some more things to get comfortable with, but its a pretty decent package.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 11, 2016, 12:21:30 AM
Looking real good Chris! I think the finish looks really good. I like the way you created the center "lug/Grouser" with the ball end mill. It's definitely worth the time spent making good jigs & fixtures. You'll have quite the collection of them when this project is complete.

 Really nice work!  :ThumbsUp:

 John
Thanks! There is a collection box of jigs/fixtures/etc that these will join, the finger plate for the tracks should be useful for all sorts of parts - I've seen others here using simaler ones to hold all sorts of odd little bits for machining.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on November 11, 2016, 12:39:23 AM
Chris, I think you found the perfect method for finishing the track parts. They look really good and the details remain very well defined!!  Excellent result!!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on November 11, 2016, 12:59:43 AM
Hi Chris

The tracks sure look good after a trip through the bowl. Are you running them with some soap; and for how long?


Dave
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 11, 2016, 01:27:20 AM
Hi Chris

The tracks sure look good after a trip through the bowl. Are you running them with some soap; and for how long?


Dave
They ran about an hour per batch. Looked at them after 10 minutes and a half hour, after an hour they looked good so I stopped it. The parts and ceramic bits were rotating up and down the bowl nicely.

No soap - what would that do? Like liquid dish soap? I just ran it dry, rinsed the parts off when done to remove the fine particles. When running the brass cases there is polish and brightening solutions that you can add.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 11, 2016, 03:35:48 AM
Chris, those tracks look great! Although I'm not sure it'll make much difference when they're all mucked up with mud from running around in your backyard!  :ROFL:

I'd love to see a picture of your tumbling setup if you get a chance.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 11, 2016, 03:45:45 AM
Chris, those tracks look great! Although I'm not sure it'll make much difference when they're all mucked up with mud from running around in your backyard!  :ROFL:

I'd love to see a picture of your tumbling setup if you get a chance.

Jim
Here it is, a Lyman tumbler, with the ceramic media. Add a handful of track parts, screw down the cover, plug in for an hour, all done.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 11, 2016, 04:25:17 AM
Thanks Chris.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 11, 2016, 04:49:01 PM
Got rolling on making the washer discs for the track pins this morning, made up enough for the ones to be rivetted onto the inner ends of the pins for both tracks, started with 5/32" rod, drilled and parted off on the lathe:
(https://s5.postimg.org/79r7s2osn/IMG_8632.jpg)
At the bottom of the picture you can see some of the bits that were left by the parting tool as it broke through that had to be clipped off the discs with an end cutter.
With the discs made, I started rivetting them on to the ends of the pins, using the split plate tool that I had shown earlier:
(https://s5.postimg.org/uchqr8q9z/IMG_8634.jpg)
At this point, one tracks worth of pins are rivetted:
(https://s5.postimg.org/b8ofawdfr/IMG_8635.jpg)
Next up will be to make another batch of the washers for the outer ends of the pins, then make the thicker bushings that go in the middle of the track plates. After that, drill the ends for the cotter pins, and I can assemble the tracks for real.

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on November 11, 2016, 11:39:25 PM
That didn't take long at all! I haven't made a single part all week and you have done a few dozen ... and fiddly wee potlickers as well! Think I'll go back to knitting.

Tom
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 12, 2016, 12:00:39 AM
That didn't take long at all! I haven't made a single part all week and you have done a few dozen ... and fiddly wee potlickers as well! Think I'll go back to knitting.

Tom
Oh, come on, its only 10 dozen so far... And I'd rather do these than knit!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 12, 2016, 12:20:52 AM
My mother tried to teach me to knit when I was a kid. Long dark winter nights and only one television channel (on a good clear night). I never did learn. Tried to learn to play cribbage and never did well at that either. Dumb damn kid!!---but---I bet her and I played ten thousand games of crokinole each winter.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 12, 2016, 12:55:51 AM
My mother tried to teach me to knit when I was a kid. Long dark winter nights and only one television channel (on a good clear night). I never did learn. Tried to learn to play cribbage and never did well at that either. Dumb damn kid!!---but---I bet her and I played ten thousand games of crokinole each winter.

I played tons of Euchre and gin rummy during school and at lunch time at work, loved that, but never could figure out Bridge. Made as much sense to me as a marketing plan.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 12, 2016, 01:03:48 AM
The shop elves got the rest of the rest of the washers rivetted on the other half of the pivot pins, and the other track test assembled again. They sent thier pet CyberElf over with it.
(https://s5.postimg.org/3vi83f85j/IMG_8637.jpg)

Another couple of half-hour sessions making up another big pile of washers and also the center bushings later (they go quick - drill hole in the end of the rod, part off a few, move the rod out and repeat)...
(https://s5.postimg.org/plvneg1l3/IMG_8640.jpg)
and ready to start drilling the ends of the pivots for the cotter pins.
(https://s5.postimg.org/j6wmhruvb/IMG_8639.jpg)
Then I am going to give the elves a bag of cookies and let them make and install all the cotter pins...!

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on November 12, 2016, 01:08:01 AM
Hi Chris

The tracks sure look good after a trip through the bowl. Are you running them with some soap; and for how long?


Dave
They ran about an hour per batch. Looked at them after 10 minutes and a half hour, after an hour they looked good so I stopped it. The parts and ceramic bits were rotating up and down the bowl nicely.

No soap - what would that do? Like liquid dish soap? I just ran it dry, rinsed the parts off when done to remove the fine particles. When running the brass cases there is polish and brightening solutions that you can add.

Hi Chris

The soap helps flush away the swarf; and in my thinking also keeps the media from loading up; kind of  like using a sharpening stone with out any lube. I have a gallon of concentrate that I purchased from Burr-King; I think the advantage of the commercial product are the low foaming properties and rust inhibitors.

When we were kids my sister and I used to play Canasta with my grandmother and great aunt (her twin sister); lots of fun.

Dave
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 12, 2016, 01:23:50 AM
Hi Chris

The tracks sure look good after a trip through the bowl. Are you running them with some soap; and for how long?


Dave
They ran about an hour per batch. Looked at them after 10 minutes and a half hour, after an hour they looked good so I stopped it. The parts and ceramic bits were rotating up and down the bowl nicely.

No soap - what would that do? Like liquid dish soap? I just ran it dry, rinsed the parts off when done to remove the fine particles. When running the brass cases there is polish and brightening solutions that you can add.

Hi Chris

The soap helps flush away the swarf; and in my thinking also keeps the media from loading up; kind of  like using a sharpening stone with out any lube. I have a gallon of concentrate that I purchased from Burr-King; I think the advantage of the commercial product are the low foaming properties and rust inhibitors.

When we were kids my sister and I used to play Canasta with my grandmother and great aunt (her twin sister); lots of fun.

Dave
Thanks for the info - will look into that for next time I run a batch.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on November 12, 2016, 11:28:28 AM
The shop elves got the rest of the rest of the washers rivetted on the other half of the pivot pins, and the other track test assembled again. They sent thier pet CyberElf over with it.
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d35/crueby1/Lombard%20Hauler%20Build/IMG_8637_zpsy4qrqdu4.jpg)


That's what I need ... a CyberElf or two! I'll print a couple up.

Really good looking tracks.

Tom

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 13, 2016, 05:50:10 PM
I got the tracks assembled, with the center bushings and the outer washers all on, ready for the cotter pins:
(https://s5.postimg.org/g5jmd1lvr/IMG_8641.jpg)
I was about to start on the cotter pins, but found I was out of the fine stainless steel wire needed. I thought I had another spool, have lots in copper and brass, but am out of the stainless. So, I need to go get more of that. I bet the shop elves heard I was going to make them do this job and they hid it.

So, in the meantime, I have been playing in the CAD software, figuring out the shape for the sprocket wheels for the tracks. It still needs some refinement, but I have it far enough along to make a test wheel out of wood and see if it will function as is or if I need to change anything. Here is a screen grab of it:
(https://s5.postimg.org/8e2wehhqf/Sprocket.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: AOG on November 13, 2016, 06:08:21 PM
Looking at your post something popped into my head. With the track lops closed isn't it going to be difficult to install them? It seems to me that it's going to be hard to get them around all the bits and bobs in the suspension. Might I suggest leaving the last link open so you can put the model on the tracks and lay the remainder over the top of the suspension and then close the last link.

Just a suggestion

Tony
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 13, 2016, 06:19:50 PM
Looking at your post something popped into my head. With the track lops closed isn't it going to be difficult to install them? It seems to me that it's going to be hard to get them around all the bits and bobs in the suspension. Might I suggest leaving the last link open so you can put the model on the tracks and lay the remainder over the top of the suspension and then close the last link.

Just a suggestion

Tony

Hi Tony,

I don't think it will be much of a problem - the bearing blocks that the sprocket axles are held by have slots in them for tensioning the tracks, it may be possible to just loosen both of them and slip the track over the second sprocket. If not, two other options - 1) open one link like you say, just needs removing/replacing a cotter, which is easy and at worst wastes one cotter pin, or 2) taking the bolts out of one set of bearing blocks to let it move even farther. I have not drawn up the track mounting system yet, but actually was just looking through the pictures from the restoration to see about that very issue! I was also making notes on the number of spokes in the sprockets (6), and tapers, bevels, hub flange, etc.
As you can see in this picture, there are a LOT of parts to come on the track assembly:
(https://s5.postimg.org/gkuw627t3/IMG_3027.jpg)
It must have taken a lot of muscle and tools to install the track on these beasts.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on November 13, 2016, 08:30:19 PM
Traditionally, crawler tracks are installed by driving the machine onto the track, slacking off the tensioner, pulling the ends together at the top, installing the "master" pin and then tensioning the track.

At least that's what Cat tells 'ya and what we always did....

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 13, 2016, 09:56:35 PM
Traditionally, crawler tracks are installed by driving the machine onto the track, slacking off the tensioner, pulling the ends together at the top, installing the "master" pin and then tensioning the track.

At least that's what Cat tells 'ya and what we always did....

Pete

I went and watched the video of the team at the museum installing the drive chain, which is LOTS lighter than the tracks, but still very heavy, and fighting with the tensioner and pin to get it linked like you describe, still a very difficult thing to manage on something that large. Fortunately my version wieghs only about a pound or so!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 13, 2016, 10:22:40 PM
I spent some more time this afternoon refining the sprocket wheel 3d model, adding the spokes and the recesses, and it is looking more like the real one now.
(https://s5.postimg.org/8e2wehhqf/Sprocket.jpg)
Then I went up to the wood shop and found a scrap bit of 3mm marine plywood that will work fine to test out the sprocket design with the tracks - much quicker/cheaper to waste some wood than to do it for real in steel. I started by glueing a dowel in the center of a 3" circle of the plywood, and set it up on the rotary table to drill the holes for the pivot pin bushings to ride in:
(https://s5.postimg.org/vsfh45p1j/IMG_8642.jpg)
and then between those, at a different offset from center, are holes to locate the middle of the valley for the track lug (center of the track plate) to ride in:
(https://s5.postimg.org/bz3dbgbnr/IMG_8643.jpg)
The track lug valleys will be square bottom to mate with the track plate, the bottom of the hole is tangent to where the flat will be.
Then I worked out a sequence and offsets to mill the slanted sides of the teeth (taking notes to re-use with the steel version later):
(https://s5.postimg.org/5zfm7sqvb/IMG_8647.jpg)
After some filing of the edges to get the width of the teeth down to the proper size (the plywood was a little thicker than the steel will be) and also squaring up the bottom of the lug valleys with a file, it was time to do some test fits
(https://s5.postimg.org/4lnzchrlz/IMG_8648.jpg)
It took a couple tries to get it to be a smooth fit all the way around - had to relieve the sides of the flats a little - it became a nice rolling fit.
Initiate happy dance mode!  :pinkelephant:
(https://s5.postimg.org/goxwdss1z/IMG_8649.jpg)
I will take some measurements of the wood test wheel, and compare to the plan to see if there are any tweaks needed in the design, but it went quite smoothly. The last time I made a sprocket was for the weight chain on a clock, and that one took half a dozen attempts over several days, this one proved that CAD drawing it first can work. Maybe not always, but at least it can!


Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on November 13, 2016, 10:31:54 PM
By Golly Ollie, give that man a cookie! That looks like it will work well Chris.

Tom
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 13, 2016, 10:36:03 PM
By Golly Ollie, give that man a cookie! That looks like it will work well Chris.

Tom
Cookie - yeah!   :cheers: (we need a cookie icon!)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 13, 2016, 11:27:33 PM
I took measurements from the wooden test sprocket, and it looks like the only change I will make to the CAD model is to open up the angles of the lug valleys a bit. The opening for the pivot bushing is fine, and all the radius placements are fine. Not bad, considering that I have not learned to do the animations of multiple parts in the software yet so it was sketched by eye on the tooth sides. Glad I did the test wheel first, saved a bit of rework on the steel version.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on November 14, 2016, 12:22:20 AM
Great idea to do the test wheel in wood Chris, looks like you are very close to the final design though...very nice!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 14, 2016, 03:36:56 AM
Coming along nicely Chris. I already know more about crawler tracks than I ever did before. Like others, I was always in the "tracks full of mud camp".

What CAD software are you using?

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 14, 2016, 12:23:39 PM
Coming along nicely Chris. I already know more about crawler tracks than I ever did before. Like others, I was always in the "tracks full of mud camp".

What CAD software are you using?

Jim
I'm still learning about tracks, lot more to them than I ever knew!

I am using AutoCAD Fusion 360, which can be had for free for individual non commercial use. I am going through the video tutorial series on thier website, so far can do the basic modelling steps. It can generate 2d dimensioned plan sheets from the 3d too. It stores info online so you can share parts with a team. Nice package, I will probably use 5% of its capabilities.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 14, 2016, 12:28:16 PM
Great idea to do the test wheel in wood Chris, looks like you are very close to the final design though...very nice!!

Bill
It worked out well, still need to do some research on the photos to figure out how long to make the axles front and rear. The rear ones get a drive chain sprocket on the inside ends. The axles don't go all the way across, there is a central axle that the track assemblies pivot on. I wasn't sure about the pivoting till I saw a video of the real one going over a bump.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 14, 2016, 11:01:55 PM
Well, its a good thing that I have a bunch to do on the cotter pins for the tracks, the sprocket plates just took a big step backwards.

I had picked up an offcut of .120 thick 304 stainless plate from a metal supplier that I thought would be perfect for the sprockets and for some of the larger plates in the track assembly. This evening I cut out square blanks for the sprockets, and went to drill the center holes. Man, does this stuff dull and destroy drill bits fast! Don't know what the hardening of it is, or it is mismarked as to alloy, but this stuff is odd. Pushes out a bit from the bit, then gloms onto it, even with plenty of oil. Destroyed a brand new 1/4" cobalt steel bit. Given the number of holes that I will be drilling to form the sprocket teeth, I am backing away from this stuff and going to look for another route - see what flat stock or round stock I can find to machine the sprockets out of.  I haven't seen a bit destroyed like this since the time I hit a hard inclusion in a casting.

 :toilet_claw:

EDIT:
Well, Dumb Luck strikes again! (BTW - Dumb Luck was the name of my first boat! Mainly since 'take it easy but take it' would not fit on the transom).

I went back and dug into my steel stock piles, looking for something that I could piece up possibly for the sprockets (finished size just under 3" diameter), or maybe a wide but thicker piece of something to recut down, and at the back of the stack came up with a 3' length of 3/16" thick x 3" wide 303 stainless that had followed me home during the Shay build. Nearly perfect for this, a little thick but the blanks will be turned down for the teeth shapes anyway, and this leaves the hub a little thicker without adding on pieces. And I know this stock is proper alloy and annealing state.
 :whoohoo:
Sometimes it pays to be a minor-scale packrat!
 
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on November 14, 2016, 11:23:19 PM
Chris,  I think 304 is the "dumping ground " for stainless alloy.  If you think it drilled terrible,  try turning a piece  :hellno:. We used a lot of 304 in the paper mills for piping and you could easily see the difference between it and 316 just by the weld puddle when TIG welding.

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 14, 2016, 11:48:13 PM
Chris,  I think 304 is the "dumping ground " for stainless alloy.  If you think it drilled terrible,  try turning a piece  :hellno:. We used a lot of 304 in the paper mills for piping and you could easily see the difference between it and 316 just by the weld puddle when TIG welding.

Cletus
I have used a lot of 303, not sure about 316. There are so many alloys these days, which are good for machinability with home tools? By that I mean no flood cooling, exotic tools.

When you mention the weld puddle, what was the difference? Did the 304 have contamination?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Roger B on November 15, 2016, 05:35:20 PM
There is a lot of dubious material out there  ::) We came across quite a lot of rusty stainless steel on my last project in China  :( For the critical parts we sent samples to a European lab for analysis.

Still following along  :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 15, 2016, 10:03:02 PM
Today I got spools of a variety of sizes of stainless steel wire, and got a start on the cotter pins (the shop elves were hiding, so I had to do it). The first track is done, ready to start the second.
(https://s5.postimg.org/bs87s56vb/IMG_8652.jpg)
I had started cutting down the steel flat bar for the sprocket blanks, when I got a call from a friend of mine with an invite to go out canoeing on one of the local creeks - turned out to be a decent day for this time of year, calm wind, sunny, almost 60 degrees (F) - took one look out the window, put down the saw, and out the door I went! Was a great day to get out, some years it is snowing by now...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 16, 2016, 09:11:45 PM
Today the cutting starts on the sprocket wheels that turn the tracks, four of them in all. to start, I prepped the stock for the sprockets. I sawed squares out of a larger bar, and clamped them to the mill table for drilling the center hole.
(https://s5.postimg.org/uj5jokc1z/IMG_8654.jpg)
The plate was held on top of a 1-2-3 block, with the drilling done over one of the holes in the block so it would not be hit. Each was drilled and reamed to 1/4" -.001".
(https://s5.postimg.org/767i61vyf/IMG_8655.jpg)
In order to hold them securely for milling and turning I made up an arbor out of some 1-1/4" brass round bar. With the ends squared up, drilled the center for a 10-32 thread, and redrilled the outer 1/4" for the clearance on the bolt. Then recessed the end a bit so that it will only bear on the outer edge:
(https://s5.postimg.org/4q5os7dvr/IMG_8657.jpg)
This will form the cap of the arbor, so I parted it off leaving the cap 1/4" thick:
(https://s5.postimg.org/5470rsxzb/IMG_8658.jpg)
and then turned back the face, leaving a stub that is a snug fit for the holes in the sprocket plates:
(https://s5.postimg.org/e0hsvqolj/IMG_8659.jpg)
Then I moved the chuck over to the mill, leaving the arbor chucked up so that everything stays concentric, and drilled/tapped for a 5-40 bolt out near the rim. Given the size of the sprockets (about 3" diameter), I don't want to take any chances with the parts spinning on the arbor during milling operations, so I will use this second bolt as a locating pin. It is far enough out that it will fall in one of the openings between the spokes.
First, here is a look at the arbor so far:
(https://s5.postimg.org/mwskzof7r/IMG_8660.jpg)
and here after drilling for the locating bolt:
(https://s5.postimg.org/rjyn1g2kn/IMG_8662.jpg)
Then I put each plate in place in the arbor, and through drilled a close fit clearance hole for the locating bolt:
(https://s5.postimg.org/713qwdonb/IMG_8663.jpg)
Then, last steps were to round up the plates. They were a little too large to swing over the bed on the lathe when still square, so I used the big recip saw to knock off the corners, then put the chuck back on the lathe to get ready to round the plates:
(https://s5.postimg.org/dsu5z8dmv/IMG_8667.jpg)
Here is the first plate turned round. It was left larger than the final sprocket, so that I can drill holes around the edge for the teeth like I did with the wooden test part a couple days ago, see the earlier post for what that will look like.
(https://s5.postimg.org/qye9j2ww7/IMG_8669.jpg)
After I get the other three plates rounded, I will move the chuck and arbor back to the rotary table on the mill and start in on the teeth...

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on November 17, 2016, 12:06:35 AM
Nice progress Chris, so how is the stainless cutting on the lathe?

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 17, 2016, 12:22:22 AM
Nice progress Chris, so how is the stainless cutting on the lathe?

Bill
Hi Bill,

The 304 alloy sheet stock has been abandoned, gave it to a friend with a microbrewery to use as a heat shield in the brewing area. I am doing the discs now from the bar of 303 that I found at the bottom of the pile, got lucky since I have not seen any 3/16 x 3" flat 303 anywhere lately for sale. The 303 cuts, drills, and turns just fine, its my go to alloy for stainless the last two years. The Corliss was done with the 303 for all the steel parts, same on the Shay. A little oil, clear chips, and its fine. The 304, or whatever it really was, was awful to work.

I just finished turning down the last sprocket blank to starting size, and have the first round of holes drilled in the rim, will put up pics tomorrow with details.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on November 17, 2016, 12:58:34 AM
Those parts just keep on coming.....Geeez Dog you putting us to shame but some damn fine work..... :ThumbsUp:

 :popcorn:
Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 17, 2016, 01:14:55 AM
Those parts just keep on coming.....Geeez Dog you putting us to shame but some damn fine work..... :ThumbsUp:

 :popcorn:
Don
Thanks Don!  Pass the biscuits!  Voof!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: ddmckee54 on November 17, 2016, 09:58:57 PM
crueby:

The tracks can be a real bear.  When I built my wooden excavator models I always started with the tracks. 
about 30 man-hours and 500 parts later I'd have a set of tracks.  Then the rest of the build seemed like it was all downhill.

For what it's worth, a few weeks ago I started researching the Phoenix Centiped steam truck/locomotive.  I THINK that they built a prototype but I'm not real sure.  The only reference that I have been able to find to the Centiped is an article in the January 7, 1922 "American Lumberman" magazine.  I know that the Phoenix used a different track arrangement than the Lombard log hauler uses, but this shows a track that sets it apart from any other Phoenix log hauler.

Your tracks are looking good, keep up the good work and remember that it's all downhill from here.

Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 18, 2016, 12:09:17 AM
crueby:

The tracks can be a real bear.  When I built my wooden excavator models I always started with the tracks. 
about 30 man-hours and 500 parts later I'd have a set of tracks.  Then the rest of the build seemed like it was all downhill.

For what it's worth, a few weeks ago I started researching the Phoenix Centiped steam truck/locomotive.  I THINK that they built a prototype but I'm not real sure.  The only reference that I have been able to find to the Centiped is an article in the January 7, 1922 "American Lumberman" magazine.  I know that the Phoenix used a different track arrangement than the Lombard log hauler uses, but this shows a track that sets it apart from any other Phoenix log hauler.

Your tracks are looking good, keep up the good work and remember that it's all downhill from here.

Don

The Phoenix Hauler version used a very different drive, it was a shaft drive back to the track with a miter gear to get back into the right plane for the track. I found a CAD drawing someone did of the Phoenix, quite a lot of detail differences, though the general idea of the tracks is the same.

I figured like you did, that if I can get the tracks to work that the rest of the machine is do-able for me. I've done boilers, engines, gears, and frames, it is the tracks plus the drive chains that are totally new to me. Hopefully it is not the same kind of downhill ride that the steersman had in these things, on and icy road with a hundred tons of logs pushing you faster and faster down the hill, screaming!   :hellno:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 18, 2016, 12:39:43 AM
Time for the real fun on the sprockets, cutting the teeth. With the first sprocket blank on the rotary table on the mill (I actually did the drilling operations at each horizontal position on each of the blanks before repositioning for the next operation), I centered/zeroed the handwheels, and moved the table left to the distance for the first set of holes, which will take the center bushings in the tracks, and center drilled 24 degrees apart:
(https://s5.postimg.org/6jd6u9og7/IMG_8670.jpg)
then drilled the holes with a 5/32" drill:
(https://s5.postimg.org/k1k36k0lj/IMG_8671.jpg)
Then moved the table inwards to the distance for the other set of holes, which will take the lugs at the center of each track plate, moved the starting angle by 12-1/2 degrees to put it in the center of the other holes, and center drilled those positions:
(https://s5.postimg.org/tndnmurrb/IMG_8672.jpg)
and switched to a 1/8" drill to make these holes:
(https://s5.postimg.org/tonlg9tl3/IMG_8673.jpg)
Now it was time to mill the flats for the teeth. As I was setting up, I found that the table was JUST hitting the column at the bottom of the slots, so I reset to the back of the table for the milling operations. Whoops.
Once I worked out the offsets for the flats, I started by milling them for one side of the lug openings,
(https://s5.postimg.org/ze3u0kzrb/IMG_8674.jpg)
then angled over 12-1/2 degrees to do the same for the same side of the bushing openings,
(https://s5.postimg.org/w8j8adh53/IMG_8675.jpg)
and then relocated over to the other side to repeat the process for the other side of each tooth:
(https://s5.postimg.org/d4ui7rton/IMG_8676.jpg)
Here is the first blank with the teeth cut, next to the wooden test part and the next blank to go:
(https://s5.postimg.org/iitafbjev/IMG_8678.jpg)
Comparing it to the wooden one, everything looks good, but I cannot actually test it on the tracks yet till I can get them back on the lathe to narrow the teeth down to final width, and also take the diameter down a few thou to final size - I had to leave it a little large so that the holes would not come out the edge. Since I dont want to disturb the rotab setup, I will do the teeth on the other 3 blanks first then move the chuck and arbor back to the lathe....
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on November 18, 2016, 01:20:04 AM
Those are looking great Chris. Obviously a lot of work goes into each one, but your seem to have the routine down now.  Well done.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 18, 2016, 01:30:18 AM
Those are looking great Chris. Obviously a lot of work goes into each one, but your seem to have the routine down now.  Well done.

Bill

Thanks Bill - there are a lot of steps in milling out the teeth edges, I think I will stick to doing one blank at a time to keep the mind fresh and stave off the mental goofs. I wrote down the settings/sequences while doing the first one so I can get the rest the same.

I do have to wait for the shop elves to be asleep or busy elsewhere, or the singing is too distracting! 
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 18, 2016, 03:36:25 AM
I had to go back and look at the last couple of pages, but I think I got how this is going to work now. Looks good!

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 18, 2016, 03:57:04 AM
Thanks Jim!

I forgot to mention, before going to the lathe to thin the teeth, the rotary table will be tipped up vertical to square up the bottoms of the lug valleys so they will lay flat with the bottom of the track plates.

The one step that will be done by hand is filing the tips of the teeth round. They are narrow so that will be easy.

Once the teeth are narrowed and test fit to the tracks, I can start on shaping the spokes and hub section.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: joe d on November 18, 2016, 01:06:14 PM
They are looking good, Chris :ThumbsUp:

I really liked your proof of concept wooden sprocket... way easier than junking another piece of stock. 
Filed for future reference.

Cheers, Joe
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 18, 2016, 01:15:29 PM
They are looking good, Chris :ThumbsUp:

I really liked your proof of concept wooden sprocket... way easier than junking another piece of stock. 
Filed for future reference.

Cheers, Joe
Was way faster, easier  and cheaper! Now that I know the setup, I can assembly line all 4 parts without worrying if it will fit.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 19, 2016, 10:28:50 PM
I have the first sprocket turned down on the rim to get the tracks to fit over the teeth, nice fit. If the forum sever will just stay alive for a while I will upload pictures.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on November 19, 2016, 10:35:03 PM
Well it is up for me at the moment Chris :)  Looking forward to seeing the sprocket!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 19, 2016, 10:49:02 PM
I did the last operation on the mill for the sprocket teeth (will be back on it later to cut the spokes out), which was to square up the bottom of the valleys where the center of the track plate sits.
(https://s5.postimg.org/qntfdvv2f/IMG_8679.jpg)
and then went over to the lathe to narrow the teeth portion of the rim to the width of the slots in the track plates, and also tapered the teeth slightly to make it an easier slip fit, allowing for a little misalignment.
(https://s5.postimg.org/7la1qyk1z/IMG_8682.jpg)
After filing off the burs on some of the edges, and a trip back to the mill to open up the squared valleys just a little more, the tracks fit over the sprocket just fine.  BIG relief!
(https://s5.postimg.org/b65xa6olj/IMG_8684.jpg)
I was able to rotate the track by hand from the other end, and it rolled the sprocket around just fine. I still want to go back and file the tips of the teeth round, but they are functional. I will turn the edges of the other three to match this one, then I can start in on the spokes.
(https://s5.postimg.org/rifyzx2x3/IMG_8687.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 19, 2016, 10:51:36 PM
Was JUST able to get that post in - had two 403 errors, retried it, and it went through. Glad I copy the post contents before trying to post (I keep a backup copy in Word for major builds).

That server is still pretty wonky, needs some more grease in the Gronicle joints!  Maybe the Fetzner valve is clogged again...

 :killcomputer:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on November 19, 2016, 10:56:14 PM
That looks amazing Chris!!  Glad you got the post in.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 19, 2016, 11:02:59 PM
That looks amazing Chris!!  Glad you got the post in.

Bill

Thanks Bill, it was a big relief that all that cutting on the sprocket teeth worked out - very glad I did the wooden test one first to work out the dimensions. The original design was close, just had to widen the angles a little bit to allow the next track to rotate into place cleanly. What I learned on these will hopefully make the ones for the drive chains go a little easier - at least those don't have the alternating tooth shapes.

There is a big snowstorm moving in tonight from the midwest part of the country, hopefully the power stays on so that I can work on the other three sprockets this weekend!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 20, 2016, 02:28:32 AM
Okay, another session this evening, and all four sprockets now have the tooth area narrowed and tapered down to size, and had the burrs knocked off with a file. They all mesh nicely with the tracks, so next time I will modify the arbor to have a smaller top plate and will turn the spoke areas down to size - the section under the teeth and the hub stay full width. Then it will be time to set up for cutting the spoke openings.
(https://s5.postimg.org/qu74gz47b/IMG_8688.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on November 20, 2016, 02:31:44 AM
Good luck with the snow Chris, hope you don't lose power. Losing the forum and power in the same weekend...the shop gnomes must be up to something sinister!!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 20, 2016, 02:42:25 AM
Good luck with the snow Chris, hope you don't lose power. Losing the forum and power in the same weekend...the shop gnomes must be up to something sinister!!!

Bill

Its when you hear the snickering and clanking noises in the basement that you get worried....!

And given how the weather forecasters around here love to hype things and pick the worst-case model to broadcast, it will probably be 75 degrees and sunny. Happened before! Though there was one time years ago that the weatherman was in the middle of talking about how nice a day it was, and a hand with a note came in from off camera. "Oh, never mind, its a severe rainstorm out there!". We suggested investing in a window in the studio...  Being just east of Lake Erie and on the south edge of Lake Ontario, we do get some oddball weather shifts and lake-effect snow/rain storms here. A few hours ago I was out clearing leaves and it was upper 60s. Now it is 33 degrees.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on November 20, 2016, 02:59:27 AM
My theory exactly Chris...all weather people need a window in their office or should be required to go outside three times a day...the forecasts would improve 1000%  :lolb:

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 20, 2016, 05:04:22 AM
Looks good Chris.  :ThumbsUp: You've got this part of the build coming your way.

In order to taper the teeth, did you angle the headstock slightly? Can't tell from the picture.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 20, 2016, 05:13:15 AM
Looks good Chris.  :ThumbsUp: You've got this part of the build coming your way.

In order to taper the teeth, did you angle the headstock slightly? Can't tell from the picture.

Jim
Thanks - getting the tracks and sprockets to mesh is a major step, and something I have never done before. Closest was a small sprocket for a chain, and that took a number of experiments to get something that worked. Next big challenge on the build will be when I get to the roller chains and the drive chains. Got some ideas on mass producing those parts, will see how many of the ideas fall in the shop vac!

It was such a short shallow taper, I just freehanded the move in as I was pulling the carriage back, then I smoothed it up with a file held to the teeth as it was spinning. The headstock was still square to the bed. If it was a longer surface I would have put the compound slide on and set the angle there.
The tips of the teeth still need to be rounded at the tips, as seen from the side of the sprocket. That will be done (probably tomorrow) with a fine belt on the sander, again just freehand on the sander's table - just knocking off the corners so it is just a swipe on the belt - I tried it with a file, but could tell my fingers would go numb doing that many tips (120, I think).
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 20, 2016, 08:44:29 PM
Time to get the spokes out of the sprockets. I started by turning in the middle area of each disc on one side.
(https://s5.postimg.org/70v0o9qtj/IMG_8689.jpg)
Then, to make the turned side of the disc still rest flat on the widest part of the arbor, turned a recess to match the size of the hub.
(https://s5.postimg.org/481t48qh3/IMG_8690.jpg)
Then turned the second side of the discs to match the first side.
With the chuck/arbor moved back over to the rotary table, now laying horizontal again, the first disc was bolted down to the arbor, using the second smaller bolt as a locating pin, which was then removed again. This allows me to repeatably index the sprockets onto the arbor for each operation. The smaller bolt cannot be left in place for the drilling operations, since its head overlaps the inside hole of the spoke opening.

After consulting Don's nifty little spreadsheet on spoke drilling (same one I used on my Corliss build), I calculated the offsets for the corner holes of the spokes. With that information in hand, I centered the rotary table, zeroed the handwheels, and moved out to the position of the inner holes, locked down the mill table, and spot drilled them, advancing the rotary table 60 degrees per hole:
(https://s5.postimg.org/seh1t41zb/IMG_8695.jpg)
Then went around again and drilled:
(https://s5.postimg.org/ti1652mmf/IMG_8696.jpg)
This operation was repeated for each plate before moving on. Next step was to drill the first of the outer corner holes for the spokes. The mill table was moved over to that position, again using the info from the spreadsheet, and those holes spotted
(https://s5.postimg.org/hhfq4cf7r/IMG_8697.jpg)
and drilled
(https://s5.postimg.org/fqwp2uxon/IMG_8698.jpg)
With those done for all the plates, the mill table was moved forward to the opposite side of the spoke, and the second corner hole spotted
(https://s5.postimg.org/xi8bhbd3b/IMG_8699.jpg)
and drilled
(https://s5.postimg.org/gizd221vr/IMG_8700.jpg)
like the first side was. It can be a little hard to see the pattern of where the spokes will be in that picture, so here it is with the spoke edges drawn in:
(https://s5.postimg.org/dq65i11jb/IMG_8701.jpg)
So, after drilling the final holes in the other three plates, and drawing the spokes in on them as well to reduce the chances of cutting on the wrong side (which can easily happen, I had to erase one of the lines I drew since IT was in the wrong place!), it will be time to remove the bulk of the material in each triangle. I think I will chain drill a slightly larger hole just inside each line, then come back with the end mill to connect them up and clean up the edges. Otherwise, it is a really long set of cutting for a small end mill. More on that next time...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 21, 2016, 02:30:10 AM
More work on the spokes this evening - finished drilling the corner holes (had to stop and see how they looked in one of the tracks first)
(https://s5.postimg.org/d1xaz32tj/IMG_8703.jpg)
and then started chain drilling around the arcs at the outer end, keeping the position a bit inside the finished edge so that I did not need to spot drill, if the drill wandered a bit at the start, no problem:
(https://s5.postimg.org/9wcp8vk7b/IMG_8704.jpg)
and then down the sides of the spokes
(https://s5.postimg.org/b01eyku87/IMG_8706.jpg)
At that point I switched to a 1/8" end mill, and with the position set to stay a bit inside the finished sizes, started by milling the arc at the outer edge
(https://s5.postimg.org/99idx3cp3/IMG_8707.jpg)
and then same thing down first one side (the table needs to be moved forward to do the other side of the spokes, so I did all of the plates on one side first)
(https://s5.postimg.org/c4vh3ygp3/IMG_8711.jpg)
and then moved the table back to do the other side, freeing up the remaining chunk in the center
(https://s5.postimg.org/h4sxbwmbr/IMG_8712.jpg)
Here are the plates with one roughed out, three more to go - enough for one day. Note that there is still a lug around the locator bolt hole - I want to leave that until the outer arcs are milled, since that puts some side force on the part and I dont want to risk it moving, plus it is a simple matter to get the parts back in the same place with it still available.
(https://s5.postimg.org/t7y8zgxdz/IMG_8714.jpg)
Once all the spokes are roughed, I can trim them to final width, and then will use a corner rounding mill to round over the edges of the spokes and the inner edge of the rim...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on November 21, 2016, 06:50:35 AM
Hi Chris,
 Looking good, think I'll start growing  :popcorn:, at the rate of your updates going to buy it takes to long & it takes too long to catch up! :lolb:

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 21, 2016, 06:58:54 AM
Hi Chris,
 Looking good, think I'll start growing  :popcorn:, at the rate of your updates going to buy it takes to long & it takes too long to catch up! :lolb:

Cheers Kerrin

This forum made me buy it in 5 pound bags!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on November 21, 2016, 07:16:10 AM
Hi Chris,
 At the rate projects updates on here, why are you cutting back, I mean 5 pound bags, that would only last a couple of days!  :stir:

Cheers & keep up the good work,
Kerrin

PS wonder if the bit of 8" copper tube I've got would make a boiler for one of these?
PPS NO must keep on track.....well VERY slowly moving forward
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on November 21, 2016, 02:21:23 PM
Chris, I was going to comment last night but about the time I typed it up the access went down again. Those sprockets look wonderful. You are making it all look too easy though  ;)

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 21, 2016, 04:30:07 PM
Chris, I was going to comment last night but about the time I typed it up the access went down again. Those sprockets look wonderful. You are making it all look too easy though  ;)

Bill
I would not have seen the reply last night anyway, that storm moved in, deep lake effect snow off Lake Ontario with high winds, and power went out for a couple hours. Nice thing about retirement is not having to venture out on first snowfall roads, lots of accidents this morning. Traffic to living room chair was light!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 21, 2016, 09:15:11 PM
Next step on the spokes is to take the openings out to final dimensions. I started with the outer rim, turning the rotary table for each opening:
(https://s5.postimg.org/s5aqv2rd3/IMG_8715.jpg)
Then ran down one side of each spoke
(https://s5.postimg.org/n9yrvgg5j/IMG_8717.jpg)
and then the other
(https://s5.postimg.org/aukc31zpj/IMG_8718.jpg)
and also cleaning out the section where I had the locator bolt - these last operations are light cuts, and I am using the marks on the brass arbor to locate the sprockets.
(https://s5.postimg.org/fv9g32u9z/IMG_8719.jpg)
Last steps are to round over the corners, first on one side of one leg of each spoke,
(https://s5.postimg.org/udoxceyh3/IMG_8720.jpg)
then moving over and doing the other side and the outer rim in one pass
(https://s5.postimg.org/95b8uzk07/IMG_8722.jpg)
It is hard to see all the radiuses in the photo with the reflections, will post some more pics later once both sides are all done and out of the mill...




Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on November 22, 2016, 01:21:58 PM
What an excellent job! Chris, this is going to be one magnificent model and the speed that you are going with it, there should be steam by Christmas :lolb:

Cheers

Tom
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 22, 2016, 03:24:30 PM
What an excellent job! Chris, this is going to be one magnificent model and the speed that you are going with it, there should be steam by Christmas :lolb:

Cheers

Tom
Well, this Christmas it will be steam over the hot chocolate, next year it should be pulling the tree out of the woods!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on November 22, 2016, 03:42:51 PM
What an excellent job! Chris, this is going to be one magnificent model and the speed that you are going with it, there should be steam by Christmas :lolb:

Cheers

Tom
Well, this Christmas it will be steam over the hot chocolate, next year it should be pulling the tree out of the woods!

Okay, we will let you off for this Christmas ... I guess there are still a few parts to be made.

Tom
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 22, 2016, 03:57:12 PM
What an excellent job! Chris, this is going to be one magnificent model and the speed that you are going with it, there should be steam by Christmas :lolb:

Cheers

Tom
Well, this Christmas it will be steam over the hot chocolate, next year it should be pulling the tree out of the woods!

Okay, we will let you off for this Christmas ... I guess there are still a few parts to be made.

Tom
Its amazing how fast Lombard was able to build a couple prototypes and be in production on the real thing. It will take me a bit longer!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Johnmcc69 on November 22, 2016, 06:05:08 PM
WOW! Those sprockets look great Chris! Nice work!  :ThumbsUp:

 What parts will be next?

 John
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 23, 2016, 02:11:19 AM
WOW! Those sprockets look great Chris! Nice work!  :ThumbsUp:

 What parts will be next?

 John
When I have the rest of the corners rounded on the spokes (would have been today, but was out doing family stuff all day), I want to make the axles for the sprockets (that will be easy), then will start on the big plates that the track assembly is all held by. In the real thing they were big castings, mine will be built up and silver soldered together from smaller plates. I've been digging through the photos of the real one to figure it all out, and need to model it up in Fusion360. The shapes are pretty straightforward so that should be easy. The plates hold the bearings for the sprocket axles, and include a sliding tensioner adjustment, as well as guides for the roller chain at the bottom inside edge of the tracks. I am planning on building the whole thing from the ground up, so will finish the track assembly (including the roller chain), then the front skis, then on to the drive chains and differential assembly. I'm having a ball with this build so far!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 23, 2016, 02:20:09 AM
Forgot to post the final pics from last evenings session, got the rest of the corners rounded on the first sprocket, few more to go on the others. I am tempted to try running them through the tumbler with the ceramic media to see if the finish comes out like the track plates did, not sure if such large parts will move properly in the bowl, but worth a try.
(https://s5.postimg.org/x25xx7zt3/IMG_8724.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.org/mj5y81x53/IMG_8727.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 23, 2016, 04:47:03 AM
Great progress Chris.  :ThumbsUp:

That last picture looks like some kind of fancy pendulum for a clock.  :Lol: You'd definitely be the first one on your block to have a clock like that!  You can tell that I've been reading up on clocks lately!

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 23, 2016, 04:52:43 AM
Great progress Chris.  :ThumbsUp:

That last picture looks like some kind of fancy pendulum for a clock.  :Lol: You'd definitely be the first one on your block to have a clock like that!  You can tell that I've been reading up on clocks lately!

Jim
A clock that hauls!

I have called clocks my Gravitic Powered Temporal Engines...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: PJPickard on November 23, 2016, 02:36:04 PM
I have done some very large parts(like about twice as big as the sprocket) and they work fine.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 23, 2016, 03:25:26 PM
I have done some very large parts(like about twice as big as the sprocket) and they work fine.
Good to know -  I will give the sprockets a run in the tumbler as soon as I finish the rounding of the spokes. Thanks!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on November 23, 2016, 10:16:21 PM
Chris, based on how well the tracks turned out, I think the tumbling of the sprockets will have an equally pleasing result. Just my 2 cents.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on November 24, 2016, 03:01:12 AM
Let me say this about that  (hmmm, where have we heard that before  :lolb:) I thought the tracks had that "earth hardened" look when they came out of the tumbler,  as they would on most tracked equipment and thought "man he nailed that " :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:. However,  if it was me,  and it's not,  I think the the sprockets would look good with some "faux patina " , a contrast,  if you will.  But,  that's just my thinking.

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 24, 2016, 03:27:13 AM
Jaysus Cletus--Your the only guy on the forum that likes rust!!!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 24, 2016, 05:11:20 AM
Looking back at the pic of the sprockets and tracks together I think I agree with Cletus. Of course you could of made the sprockets out of 12L14...............that would of taken care of the rusty patina look!  :lolb: The "earth patina" will take care of itself on that first trip down the hill with a load of firewood!

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on November 24, 2016, 06:18:17 AM
Jaysus Cletus--Your the only guy on the forum that likes rust!!!

Oh no. Not alone in that. I would have made it all out of regular steel and let it take on a patina...

But it ain't mine!!

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on November 24, 2016, 12:51:10 PM
Actually, when the first pics of the assembled tracks were posted, I have to say I had a picture in my head of how good they would look ... or how realistic they would look ... with a fine patina of dried mud and atmospheric seasoning. After all, some of the plastic kit guys spend weeks making one of their creations look like that. Mind you, here that does the dusting might not be best pleased with a large chunk of rusty metal on the mantle. 

Just sayin mind.

Tom
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 25, 2016, 02:35:33 PM
The forum finally let me in, its been messed up the last two days...

I did run the sprockets through the tumbler, came out nice too. They will be painted black in the final model, like most of the hauler. The track plates won't, and the sprocket teeth will be bare, or will wear through very quick anyway. A few trips around the driveway and yard should patina things quickly, as will the steam oil combined with the dirt.

If the site stays alive for a while I'll get some more pics up...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 25, 2016, 03:01:25 PM
I got the rest of the sprocket spoke corners rounded off, and gave them a run through the tumbler with the cermic media to knock off the gloss like I did with the track plates.

For those who like real patina on a model, here is something to shoot for - this is what the real thing looks like:
(https://s5.postimg.org/r9xk1c93b/Real_Track_Side_View.jpg)

Here are the sprockets before
(https://s5.postimg.org/p09fql05j/IMG_8731.jpg)
and after tumbling. The difference can be hard to see in the pics, but in person it is a big difference
(https://s5.postimg.org/6lywmlnuv/IMG_8733.jpg)
Here they are in place on the tracks - everything runs smooth when rolling them back and forth on the table by hand. As you can see I have added the axles as well - they are a little long, will be trimmed back when the bearings are done. The back axle is a lot longer, since it will get the drive chain sprocket on the inner end.
(https://s5.postimg.org/b94yodb7r/IMG_8734.jpg)

Now, the next parts will be the vertical casting plates that hole the track assembly together. There are two per track, mirror images of each other, to hold either ends of the axles and also the roller chains at the bottom. The main axle back to the frame of the hauler comes through the middle, and the tracks can pivot on that axle to match the terrain. So far I have 3d modelled the casting plates along with the sprockets and full tracks.
(https://s5.postimg.org/xbk0d2xvr/Lombard_Post_Card.jpg)
I printed out the plan view of the casting plates actual size of the model so I could pick bar stock and decide how to make them. Currently, I am thinking that the main part will be from 1/8" x 1" steel, with a thicker piece shaped and silver soldered on to make the top flanges, and then the lower horizontal features will be soldered on as well. The alternative would be to carve the whole thing out of one block, but that would be a whole lot more work, and probably would get some warp from the internal stresses in the metal when carving so much out of one side. In piecing it up, each part will be held with small screws till silver soldered, then the screw heads trimmed off. The holes where the axles come through will be lined with bronze bearings, like the original was done. Should be fun, this is where the tracks really come together.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: vcutajar on November 25, 2016, 04:07:17 PM
That is a real great result Chris.  I see you are getting used to Fusion 360.

Vince
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 25, 2016, 04:33:08 PM
That is a real great result Chris.  I see you are getting used to Fusion 360.

Vince
Its a great software package, a few things I wish they could add, but am having great fun with it. Having done some 3d animation work in the past helps with the concepts.

Today I have started cutting down the bar stock for the central plates.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 25, 2016, 05:25:06 PM
The sprockets came out nice Chris. Tumbling took the edge off, but there's still a nice contrast with the tracks.

The 3d drawing really shows how this is all going to look when completed.

That's a great picture of the real thing. I'm sure they're a lot bigger in real life, but the cotter pins sure look delicate, considering the beating they take.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 25, 2016, 06:31:49 PM
The sprockets came out nice Chris. Tumbling took the edge off, but there's still a nice contrast with the tracks.

The 3d drawing really shows how this is all going to look when completed.

That's a great picture of the real thing. I'm sure they're a lot bigger in real life, but the cotter pins sure look delicate, considering the beating they take.

Jim

The wear they take is probably why they are on on the outside ends, so they can be replaced if needed if they get too worn. They are pretty big though:
(https://s5.postimg.org/elbmo10hz/lombard18.jpg)
My model ones are fairly teensy, it will be interesting to see how they hold up. Having the washer there helps, but there is still going to be wear on them. For the time, and the fact that he was making most of this up as he went, its amazing to see how sophistocated Lombards engines were.


Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 25, 2016, 06:42:08 PM
Some good progress on the vertical track casting plates (not sure what else to call them, that is how they are named in the Lombard parts catalog) today. I started out by cutting some 1/8"x1" 303 steel bar stock to length and milling the ends square and to size:
(https://s5.postimg.org/rk9nyfd3b/IMG_8735.jpg)
and then marked out the locations of the upper edges, and rough-sawed them to remove the bulk of the metal
(https://s5.postimg.org/r8s7lnwnb/IMG_8736.jpg)
Here they are being milled down to size - a parallel bar is underneath to keep the parts level in the vise.
(https://s5.postimg.org/dgdsq15vr/IMG_8737.jpg)
on to the second section
(https://s5.postimg.org/8vw7oubk7/IMG_8738.jpg)
then a thin pass on the top to remove the rounded corners
(https://s5.postimg.org/v93ybnchz/IMG_8739.jpg)
before notching one end for the end bearing cap to come later
(https://s5.postimg.org/l0bh5tog7/IMG_8740.jpg)
and the other end for the end cap
(https://s5.postimg.org/fq6iej47b/IMG_8743.jpg)
Here are a couple of the plates set into the approximate position that they will be in the final assembly. The axle bearing for the left end and the center pivot bearing will be held on seperate bearing blocks that bolt down onto this plate, with tensioning bolts on each.
(https://s5.postimg.org/qea9dde6f/IMG_8744.jpg)
And the family shot of the 4 plates so far.
(https://s5.postimg.org/cyn8nx5on/IMG_8745.jpg)
Next up will be to make the wider trim pieces that go along the top edges and then the horizontal plates for the bottom edges.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Captain Jerry on November 25, 2016, 07:07:49 PM
Chris, "track frames" is the common term in dozer circles.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 25, 2016, 07:23:45 PM
Chris, "track frames" is the common term in dozer circles.
Thanks! Adding to my vocabulary.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: RayW on November 25, 2016, 07:43:39 PM
Hi Chris. Great work so far and following with interest. If you find your tracks slipping in the mud, you could always try this idea seen in Norway on a small Ransomes MG6 crawler tractor!

Regards

Ray
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 25, 2016, 08:06:19 PM
Hi Chris. Great work so far and following with interest. If you find your tracks slipping in the mud, you could always try this idea seen in Norway on a small Ransomes MG6 crawler tractor!

Regards

Ray
I love it! Lets see, four horseshoes per horsepower in the engine...  :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on November 25, 2016, 08:39:21 PM
Glad you were able to post an update Chris. Still checking in and following along as I am able to get onto the forum. It's been pretty good today so far, just the occasional glitch. I think the sprockets look just fine after tumbling too!!  Still plenty of contrast in my opinion.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: fumopuc on November 25, 2016, 09:36:35 PM
Hi Chris, I am following along quietly, great show.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 26, 2016, 03:17:53 AM
Glad you were able to post an update Chris. Still checking in and following along as I am able to get onto the forum. It's been pretty good today so far, just the occasional glitch. I think the sprockets look just fine after tumbling too!!  Still plenty of contrast in my opinion.

Bill

Hi Chris, I am following along quietly, great show.

Thanks guys! I've had some good progress on it lately, may have to take a day off and let all the little nicks and cuts in the fingertips from handling all the trim parts today - the end mill leaves some sharp edges! Next post shows the parts I mean...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on November 26, 2016, 03:19:45 AM
Great work Chris!  I'm still following along!   :popcorn:

That is, when the forum lets me in...  :'(
Kim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 26, 2016, 03:41:57 AM
Chris---You are a magician. I love the stuff you are doing. Looking at the tracks fully assembled has dredged up an old memory. When I was a young kid, I had a favourite uncle, my Uncle Jimmy, who eventually would be the one to teach me to drink whiskey and play the fiddle---but I digress----I was at my Grandparents house, and my uncle had the timing chain off some old car he had torn apart. He had cleaned all of the oil and dirt off it and was letting me play with it, driving it around the kitchen table. I was absolutely entranced!!

I had never before seen such wonderful mechanical perfection. I remember asking if he could build me a toy bulldozer with timing chains for tracks, but he said that no, he couldn’t do that because he wouldn’t be able to make the sprockets for it.

Uncle Jimmy has been gone now for many, many years, and that memory is probably more than 60 years old now.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 26, 2016, 03:44:47 AM
On to making the edge trim parts for the track frames, which are slightly thicker parts that go around the top edge of the frames to simulate the shape that the castings had on the real hauler. I could have milled the frames from a thicker piece, but there are two places where the track tensioning rods go that will need holes drilled/tapped. Both places are too far in to reach with normal drills/taps. And, since there are other parts on the bottom edge that will need to be silver soldered on as well, I decided to do all the edge trim as seperate pieces. They will be screwed in place for soldering, then the screws filed off. And, since the shapes dictate that I cannot reach the vertical parts for drilling/tapping, those two places will have the trim pieces milled from a wider bar so they can be screwed in from the top.

Hope all that makes sense, it will when you see the pictures...

So, I started with making the T shaped parts that sits next to the center axle bearing block. I rough cut some chunks off of the bar, chucked each up in the mill vise. Since they were slightly oversize and rough cut, alignment was not an issue. First step was to mill the top flat, then take a pass on either end to square them up and leave the ends the correct length.
(https://s5.postimg.org/h1s1s83yf/IMG_8746.jpg)
The the parts were turned over, height set with a parallel bar underneath, and the upright of the T milled in, the correct distance from one end so that the part will reach the lower horizontal rail.
(https://s5.postimg.org/thorlyxaf/IMG_8747.jpg)
Here is one of the parts set in place against the track frame:
(https://s5.postimg.org/ezrkdz5zb/IMG_8748.jpg)
And here are all four of the T's complete, two sitting as they will against the frames.
(https://s5.postimg.org/53qhec07b/IMG_8749.jpg)
Next up were the U shaped pieces that will hold the tension adjusters for the front sprockets. To start, a chunk of spare bar left over from track plate making was clamped in the vise level, and a slot milled in it the same depth and width as the tab on the track frames. I was able to fit two of the parts in each piece of bar.
(https://s5.postimg.org/y7epakoav/IMG_8750.jpg)
Here is the track frame tab being test fit in one of the slots
(https://s5.postimg.org/gimyiycjr/IMG_8751.jpg)
Once all 4 were slotted and then rough cut out of the bars, each was slipped over the tab to hold it vertical in the vise
(https://s5.postimg.org/j18njmy9z/IMG_8753.jpg)
and the depth set to mill off the top surface
(https://s5.postimg.org/5yd10d81z/IMG_8755.jpg)
down to dimension
(https://s5.postimg.org/o2g1l05qf/IMG_8756.jpg)
then it was slid over to the side to mill the side of the part to size
(https://s5.postimg.org/ifjonj37r/IMG_8757.jpg)
and here are all the T's and U's milled out, ready to go:
(https://s5.postimg.org/5bj67yhhj/IMG_8758.jpg)
Next step will be to cut/trim lengths of the bar at the bottom of the photo to length to fill in the rest of the edges, then drill/tap for the screws to hold them in place for silver soldering...

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 26, 2016, 03:46:07 AM
Great work Chris!  I'm still following along!   :popcorn:

That is, when the forum lets me in...  :'(
Kim

Its been no fun this week, missing our forum-fixes! I hope it gets sorted soon.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 26, 2016, 03:49:57 AM
Chris---You are a magician. I love the stuff you are doing. Looking at the tracks fully assembled has dredged up an old memory. When I was a young kid, I had a favourite uncle, my Uncle Jimmy, who eventually would be the one to teach me to drink whiskey and play the fiddle---but I digress----I was at my Grandparents house, and my uncle had the timing chain off some old car he had torn apart. He had cleaned all of the oil and dirt off it and was letting me play with it, driving it around the kitchen table. I was absolutely entranced!!

I had never before seen such wonderful mechanical perfection. I remember asking if he could build me a toy bulldozer with timing chains for tracks, but he said that no, he couldn’t do that because he wouldn’t be able to make the sprockets for it.

Uncle Jimmy has been gone now for many, many years, and that memory is probably more than 60 years old now.---Brian
I was kind of the same way, loved to take apart things and see how they were made, just loved seeing all the finely made metal parts inside things. Just not the same with plastic these days. I still love old machines and instruments, have a small collection of antique navigation instruments, sextants, octants, etc, mainly from the earlier wood and brass days. One later one is out of a B-17 bomber, I opened it up once to see the inside, it is a marvel of super tight tolerance gears and levers. Just amazing stuff.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 26, 2016, 05:14:16 AM
Good progress Chris. I'm still trying to get my head wrapped around the size of the full scale Lombard. Could you tell me what the height is from the bottom track to the top track where it goes around one of the sprockets?

After going back and forth.............and forth and back..............I finally got smart and printed out the picture, from the last page, of the side view of the full size tracks and your 3D rendering. Way better! It's much easier to see where the parts fit into the picture.........literally!  :)

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 26, 2016, 05:33:18 AM
Good progress Chris. I'm still trying to get my head wrapped around the size of the full scale Lombard. Could you tell me what the height is from the bottom track to the top track where it goes around one of the sprockets?

After going back and forth.............and forth and back..............I finally got smart and printed out the picture, from the last page, of the side view of the full size tracks and your 3D rendering. Way better! It's much easier to see where the parts fit into the picture.........literally!  :)

Jim

Lets see, the hauler is 30 feet long and 8 feet 2 inches wide and 9 feet tall according to the spec sheet. Weight 19 tons.  The sprocket axles are about 5 feet apart, and the tracks are a bit over 3 feet bottom to top.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 26, 2016, 11:51:15 PM
Moving along on the top edge trim pieces, I sawed out the thin bars to rough length, milled the ends square, and then was ready to trim the middle bars to be a snug fit in the center span.
(https://s5.postimg.org/z6dwf7c3r/IMG_8759.jpg)
The bars on the ends I will leave a little long till they are bolted down, then trim them flush while in place - easier than all the measuring back and forth.
With the help of a handful of parallel clamps and one small bar clamp, I held the first set of bars in place on one of the track frames, with the back edge of the bars flush with the back edge of the frame (done while it was laying on the table), the track frame was held in the mill vise and the bars spot drilled for some temporary 2-56 screws.
(https://s5.postimg.org/kogp77ksn/IMG_8760.jpg)
Then they were drilled for the clearance and tap holes
(https://s5.postimg.org/eosy3k007/IMG_8764.jpg)
and then the holes were tapped for some short 2-56 cap head screws to hold them all in place.
(https://s5.postimg.org/3qholdbev/IMG_8766.jpg)
After silver soldering everything in place, the socket heads will be cut off flush to the bars. Next step though will be to mill off the overhanging ends of the bars so I can attach the end parts. Then I will start on the roller chain guide bars that go along the bottom edge of the track frames.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 29, 2016, 12:25:54 AM
Okay, catching up on the last couple days, I had left off with the top edge rails overhanging the end a little, so those were milled back flush
(https://s5.postimg.org/fhnok45xj/IMG_8768.jpg)
and then it was time to drill the end for the temporary bolts to hold the end parts on. Since the plates would be too whippy by themselves when stood on end, I clamped all four together to stiffen them up, then drilled/tapped the ends:
(https://s5.postimg.org/ljvbaludj/IMG_8771.jpg)
Here are the parts so far:
(https://s5.postimg.org/8gzorc45j/IMG_8776.jpg)
Next up was to make the bearing block assemblies for the front end of the track frames. They are in two halves, with a thin bronze bearing around the sprocket axle. I started with two lengths of steel bar stock, long enough to make 4 pairs altogether, clamped together in the mill vise, and milled out the gaps between the bearings.
(https://s5.postimg.org/bchdbxxjb/IMG_8777.jpg)
and took down the top surfaces to the desired height
(https://s5.postimg.org/lb2byf6yv/IMG_8779.jpg)
The final shape will have a half round on the top portion, but with the flanges out the sides it was a bit much to try milling the rounded portion directly, so I took off the bulk of the metal at a 45 degree angle, using a wood angle block to set the part in the vise. I positioned each section with the bottom corner of the step at the top of the vise, so I could set the cutter height once and do all the milling.
(https://s5.postimg.org/ovy7hnbif/IMG_8781.jpg)
Here are the two bars with the 45's milled in
(https://s5.postimg.org/rejwibx8n/IMG_8783.jpg)
With the bars done, I went back to mill in the matching recess in the end of the track frame. Started by milling in the recess for the flat top of the bearing block to rest against
(https://s5.postimg.org/yj1prd4hz/IMG_8785.jpg)
and then used the same angle block to tilt the track frames up to mill the angled part of the recess
(https://s5.postimg.org/6k7k0i2vb/IMG_8786.jpg)
and here is how it looks with the bearing block held against it:
(https://s5.postimg.org/ft9qambrb/IMG_8787.jpg)
Then the bearing blocks had all the mounting bolt holes drilled
(https://s5.postimg.org/o01q271tz/IMG_8788.jpg)
and the corners of all but 4 of the end parts were rounded off on the belt sander. The remaining flats were left to mate to the track frames.
(https://s5.postimg.org/sn7s3yp6v/IMG_8789.jpg)
and here are all the parts of the track frames so far all screwed together.
(https://s5.postimg.org/kiznz82rr/IMG_8790.jpg)
with a closer look at the bearing blocks. They will be drilled for the axle holes after the silver soldering is done, in case there is any mis-alignment during that step.
(https://s5.postimg.org/l9wziquiv/IMG_8791.jpg)
That finishes up the tops of the track frames for now. Next I will start on the flanges at the bottom of the track frames, once all those are on I will silver solder all the joints.

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on November 29, 2016, 12:43:27 AM
Hmmmm ... Santa may want to use those tracks on his sleigh ... just sayin.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 29, 2016, 12:48:41 AM
Hmmmm ... Santa may want to use those tracks on his sleigh ... just sayin.

He can borrow them if I can get time in his workshop!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on November 29, 2016, 12:58:47 AM
What does he have in his shop that you don't ... besides friendly and hard working elves?
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on November 29, 2016, 01:35:45 AM
Chris I am just catching up on your build and buddy that is awesome........ :praise2:

Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 29, 2016, 01:43:09 AM
What does he have in his shop that you don't ... besides friendly and hard working elves?
Elves are good to have around your shop. Gnomes, on the other hand, are malicious little buggers!!!----
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 29, 2016, 02:03:26 AM
What does he have in his shop that you don't ... besides friendly and hard working elves?
Elves are good to have around your shop. Gnomes, on the other hand, are malicious little buggers!!!----
That's why its so important to make the elves favorite cookies, put out little glasses of milk, and make them comfy chairs...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 29, 2016, 02:03:45 AM
Chris I am just catching up on your build and buddy that is awesome........ :praise2:

Don
Thanks Don!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on November 29, 2016, 02:10:43 AM
Hmmm ... Ya learn something every day.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: GailinNM on November 29, 2016, 12:46:32 AM
And good Elves are hard to find this time of year with so many of them working up North for the season. Really have to bribe them a bit to keep them around.
Gail in NM
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 29, 2016, 02:48:50 AM
And good Elves are hard to find this time of year with so many of them working up North for the season. Really have to bribe them a bit to keep them around.
Gail in NM
Hint. They love mint chocolate chip cookies.  Trust me on this one.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Captain Jerry on November 29, 2016, 04:23:06 AM
Chris, the track frames are looking great.  Do you always get things right on the first try?  That could be one of the reasons that you make such good progress but doesn't that leave your scrap box a little empty?  Mine on the other hand is well stocked with "not quites."

But seriously, I have been looking at the plans and photos of the track assemblies and I am not able to confirm or rule out the existence of any struts, braces, webs, or connection between the two sides of the track frames.  The boss that encloses center pivot shaft that is bolted to the top of both sides seems to be the only solid connection.  The only other connections are the sprocket shafts.  Is that the way that you see it as well, or am I looking at this all wrong?   It seems odd to me because the track frames on modern dozers are a one piece casting with webs between the two sides.  I don't really wear belts and suspenders at the same time but it seems to me that the frames could use some stiffening.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 29, 2016, 04:50:19 AM
Chris, the track frames are looking great.  Do you always get things right on the first try?  That could be one of the reasons that you make such good progress but doesn't that leave your scrap box a little empty?  Mine on the other hand is well stocked with "not quites."

But seriously, I have been looking at the plans and photos of the track assemblies and I am not able to confirm or rule out the existence of any struts, braces, webs, or connection between the two sides of the track frames.  The boss that encloses center pivot shaft that is bolted to the top of both sides seems to be the only solid connection.  The only other connections are the sprocket shafts.  Is that the way that you see it as well, or am I looking at this all wrong?   It seems odd to me because the track frames on modern dozers are a one piece casting with webs between the two sides.  I don't really wear belts and suspenders at the same time but it seems to me that the frames could use some stiffening.
Oh no, my scrap boxES are definitely loaded. Some get reused on smaller parts, some as ballast in the rc boats. I mafe half a dozen extra track pads, needed them all. So far no goofs on the track frames, but not done yet!

Great minds think alike. I also have spent a lot of time looking through every photo of the track frames at the museum, cannot find any sign of any spacers other than the central pivot. The sprocket will hold the bearing blocks apart, but it seems like that is not enough for all the stresses that they would experience. I am planning on putting a spacer block down lower in the middle, with a set of bolts through from the inside where they won't show. Its possible that there was nothing else but I doubt it, but during the restoration they never had to take that assembly apart so no pics. Fortunately for me they did full teardowns on most everything else. I won't be getting up to Maine till spring, so won't be able to see for myself till then. Be sure I will be taking gons of pics from every angle I can! Down the top between the frame playes is top on my list. Its very possible that they had a horizontal plate between the roller guides. Time will tell.

Nice to have another set of eyes on this, if I am missing something feel free to sing out!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 29, 2016, 06:36:43 PM
Started in on the bottom flanges of the track frames this morning, cut some 1/2" x 1/8" bar stock to length and milled the ends square, then drilled for the mounting holes in the side and bottom:
(https://s5.postimg.org/hlghaqz9j/IMG_8792.jpg)
likewise for the narrow strips that will form the edge guide for the roller chain
(https://s5.postimg.org/583n3u9l3/IMG_8793.jpg)
Here are the parts tapped and screwed together for a test fit:
(https://s5.postimg.org/sau630b2f/IMG_8794.jpg)
The last parts to make before soldering it all together are the box beams that sit on top of this flange...

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on November 29, 2016, 06:41:04 PM
Y'all stand by, he's getting ready to "flux his muscles" :lolb: :lolb:

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 29, 2016, 06:46:10 PM
Y'all stand by, he's getting ready to "flux his muscles" :lolb: :lolb:

Cletus

Okay, thats enough cookies for you, mister. The sugar high is getting to you!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on November 29, 2016, 05:15:30 PM
Perhaps he has been sniffing the "Special" BBQ sauce again ...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 29, 2016, 08:24:33 PM
Perhaps he has been sniffing the "Special" BBQ sauce again ...
Ah, yes, clear sauce, comes in a mason jar...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on November 29, 2016, 06:40:23 PM
Y'all are just amazed that I came up with a funny like that  :lolb: :lolb:. wagnmkr, I said no, no , no more I don't  (sniff) it no more , I'm tired of waking up on the floor , no thank you please,  it only makes me sneeze, then it makes it hard to find the door  :lolb: :lolb:. Bettles  1970 something  :lolb: :lolb: Remember there is only two kinds of "shine ", Sun and Moon  :lolb: :old: :lolb:

Cletus

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on November 29, 2016, 06:45:58 PM
Chris,  if you don't mind I'd like to share this with your faithful followers,  perhaps it will help with their shop progress :
http://www.bettycrocker.com/recipes/mint-chocolate-chip-cookies/22bebeda-ea36-441a-9909-ae78409d6da6.

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 30, 2016, 01:07:11 AM
Chris,  if you don't mind I'd like to share this with your faithful followers,  perhaps it will help with their shop progress :
http://www.bettycrocker.com/recipes/mint-chocolate-chip-cookies/22bebeda-ea36-441a-9909-ae78409d6da6.

Cletus
Not bad, but I think mine would be better, I'll have to dig out the recipe and see if the elves will let me post it. Brown sugar, dark chocolate chips, and mint baking emulsion makes a big difference. The elves can tell!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 30, 2016, 01:36:56 AM
Chris,  if you don't mind I'd like to share this with your faithful followers,  perhaps it will help with their shop progress :
http://www.bettycrocker.com/recipes/mint-chocolate-chip-cookies/22bebeda-ea36-441a-9909-ae78409d6da6 (http://www.bettycrocker.com/recipes/mint-chocolate-chip-cookies/22bebeda-ea36-441a-9909-ae78409d6da6).

Cletus
Not bad, but I think mine would be better, I'll have to dig out the recipe and see if the elves will let me post it. Brown sugar, dark chocolate chips, and mint baking emulsion makes a big difference. The elves can tell!

Okay, the elves gave permission (as long as I made them some more of them) to pass along the official Shop-Elf-Almagamated-Union mint chocolate chip recipe. Guaranteed to turn annoying shop gnomes into helpful shop elves in 6 short weeks. Or not. Your milage may vary. Professional lathe driver on a closed course, do not attempt in your home shop. And whatever other legal-BS you put at the bottom of an ad...

2 Teaspoons of LorAnn mint baking emulsion (NOT alcohol based extract, which bakes off with no flavor)
1-1/2 Cups all-purpose flour
1/2 Cup firmly packed brown sugar
1 stick butter
1/4 Cup sugar
1/4 Cup Egg Beaters
1 teaspoon vanilla extract
1/2 teaspoon backing soda
1/2 teaspoon salt 1 cup dark chocolate chips

Mix all except chips till blended, stir in chips. Place by spoonful on baking sheet, bake at 375 for 8 to 10 minutes. Serve to shop elves when cool.

 :stir:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on November 30, 2016, 03:18:06 AM
That all sounds great..... until I came to the "EggBeaters". !!!! Ugh.

Do you suppose the elves would riot if real eggs were used???

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on November 30, 2016, 01:22:01 AM
Pete, 1/4 cup of egg beaters should be about the same as one egg. I would do the same as you, meaning a real egg. The shop gnomes will just have to live with it :)

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 30, 2016, 01:57:27 AM
Either way works!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on November 30, 2016, 05:32:00 AM
OK!! Too late tonight, but tomorrow is certainly cookie day! I don't think we've ever made a mint chocolate chip cookie....


Cletus.... you're not in that eastern part of the state that's burning are you? God help those folks....

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 30, 2016, 03:38:46 AM
Wow - a bunch of posts about food, and none from Zee.   :LickLips:

First time for everything!


As for the model (remember the model?), I got the first of the box beams milled out tonight, more on that and pics tomorrow...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on November 30, 2016, 05:51:07 AM
Engine? I thought this was the Cookie Channel...

I've actually been a bit worried about Zee... has anyone heard from him?

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on November 30, 2016, 12:43:36 PM
Chris, I remember the build; you keep working and we'll bake the cookies. Pete, we're safe, that's over in East Tennessee, however, just south of us was hit with tornados last night; bad all around. Zee is fine. He is head over hills in cleaning out for his home and shop addition to start in January and seems to quite overwhelmed by it all. I also suspect T is pushing him pretty hard :mischief:. Carry on with the regularly scheduled programming Chris.

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on November 30, 2016, 03:47:11 PM
That's good to hear that every one is OK. Thanks Cletus!

Carry on, Chris!

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 30, 2016, 09:09:08 PM
The box beam sections are started. Began with 4 lengths of some 5/16" square 303 bar, cut and milled the ends square
(https://s5.postimg.org/mn1nhcavb/IMG_8796.jpg)
then figured out the offsets from one end to drill stop holes at the ends of each slot, and drilled them
(https://s5.postimg.org/p5nci0wlj/IMG_8797.jpg)
and started milling out the centers of the slots, using several shallow passes with a 1/8" end mill
(https://s5.postimg.org/o4rp6n4zr/IMG_8798.jpg)
Here is the first one with the slots milled:
(https://s5.postimg.org/5dprwhafb/IMG_8799.jpg)
Once all 4 bars have the slots cut, I will go back and take a cut off the top/bottom of the bars to thin them down a little, and also file the ends of the slots square.


And Pete, still waiting to see how your gnomes like the cookies!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on December 01, 2016, 01:07:01 AM
Chris, these are really starting to take shape just as the track did. What a joy to follow along!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 01, 2016, 01:27:44 AM
Chris, these are really starting to take shape just as the track did. What a joy to follow along!!

Bill
Thanks Bill!

This evening I got the tops of a couple of the box beams milled down a little thinner, should be able to solder everything up later in the week.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Johnmcc69 on December 01, 2016, 03:39:50 AM
 :popcorn:
Looking great Chris!!!

 john
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 01, 2016, 08:27:00 PM
:popcorn:
Looking great Chris!!!

 john

Thanks John!  Pass the popcorn...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 01, 2016, 08:32:09 PM
I got the rest of the box beams thinned down (.025 off top and bottom edges),
(https://s5.postimg.org/uhu9wk7wn/IMG_8800.jpg)
then the slot ends filed square and bolted on to the frames
(https://s5.postimg.org/djv9apyiv/IMG_8802.jpg)
Here is one set into the track to show about where it will sit:
(https://s5.postimg.org/j9bhv14p3/IMG_8803.jpg)
They are ready for a degreasing washdown, then silver soldering all the joints. Once that is done, the bolt heads will be cut off flush...


Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on December 01, 2016, 09:00:07 PM
Chris, those last pictures really help a lot seeing how all this will work together. Really nice!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 01, 2016, 09:15:13 PM
Chris, those last pictures really help a lot seeing how all this will work together. Really nice!!

Bill

Thanks Bill - it is getting close to where I can push the tracks around while making steam engine noises.... Wait, did I type that out loud? ...  :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on December 01, 2016, 07:40:20 PM
As long as you wasn't wearing bib overalls and a bandanna around your neck while making those sounds  :lolb:  Work looks great.

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 02, 2016, 02:34:17 AM
As long as you wasn't wearing bib overalls and a bandanna around your neck while making those sounds  :lolb:  Work looks great.

Cletus
Nope, not wearing that... As far as you know anyway...! Um, err...  :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Captain Jerry on December 02, 2016, 01:27:47 AM
Chug.......Chug......Chug.....Chug....Chug...Chug..Chug..Chug.. :DrinkPint:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 02, 2016, 05:37:42 AM
Looking good. I'm following along with my drawing and pictures!

If you have the time, when you do the soldering could you expand on that process? It still seems a little like "Black Art" to me!  :shrug:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 02, 2016, 04:51:10 PM
Looking good. I'm following along with my drawing and pictures!

If you have the time, when you do the soldering could you expand on that process? It still seems a little like "Black Art" to me!  :shrug:

Jim
Will do, what I can - can't take pics during the soldering itself (torch is hard to hold in my teeth) but will try and get some during the prep/cleanup. I learned iit from Kozo's book on the New Shay. Main things are a close fit of the parts (still want just a small gap for the solder to flow into), clean parts well, apply flux, I use the wire form of the silver solder so cut a small length and put at the joint, heat with torch from other side of the parts (not direct flame on the flux/solder side) till the flux melts then the solder melts into the joint (if flux all dries up and gone before the solder melts then you need a bigger torch nozzle), let it cool, soak in pickle solution (not real pickles!, mild acid) to loosen the crusted flux, then rinse and wire brush clean. If parts don't fall apart then you did good. I use a Seivert torch, which has a variety of tip sizes for different size parts (full copper boiler needs a LOT of heat, small parts use small nozzle), which hooks up to a 20 pound propane grill tank with a regulator that screws into the tank. Works very well.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 02, 2016, 05:11:01 PM
Looking good. I'm following along with my drawing and pictures!

If you have the time, when you do the soldering could you expand on that process? It still seems a little like "Black Art" to me!  :shrug:

Jim
Will do, what I can - can't take pics during the soldering itself (torch is hard to hold in my teeth) but will try and get some during the prep/cleanup. I learned iit from Kozo's book on the New Shay. Main things are a close fit of the parts (still want just a small gap for the solder to flow into), clean parts well, apply flux, I use the wire form of the silver solder so cut a small length and put at the joint, heat with torch from other side of the parts (not direct flame on the flux/solder side) till the flux melts then the solder melts into the joint (if flux all dries up and gone before the solder melts then you need a bigger torch nozzle), let it cool, soak in pickle solution (not real pickles!, mild acid) to loosen the crusted flux, then rinse and wire brush clean. If parts don't fall apart then you did good. I use a Seivert torch, which has a variety of tip sizes for different size parts (full copper boiler needs a LOT of heat, small parts use small nozzle), which hooks up to a 20 pound propane grill tank with a regulator that screws into the tank. Works very well.

Thanks Chris. You've covered a lot of bases with this post. I've had Kozo's book on my Amazon Wishlist for some time now..........guess I better get it ordered.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 02, 2016, 06:49:21 PM
Looking good. I'm following along with my drawing and pictures!

If you have the time, when you do the soldering could you expand on that process? It still seems a little like "Black Art" to me!  :shrug:

Jim
Will do, what I can - can't take pics during the soldering itself (torch is hard to hold in my teeth) but will try and get some during the prep/cleanup. I learned iit from Kozo's book on the New Shay. Main things are a close fit of the parts (still want just a small gap for the solder to flow into), clean parts well, apply flux, I use the wire form of the silver solder so cut a small length and put at the joint, heat with torch from other side of the parts (not direct flame on the flux/solder side) till the flux melts then the solder melts into the joint (if flux all dries up and gone before the solder melts then you need a bigger torch nozzle), let it cool, soak in pickle solution (not real pickles!, mild acid) to loosen the crusted flux, then rinse and wire brush clean. If parts don't fall apart then you did good. I use a Seivert torch, which has a variety of tip sizes for different size parts (full copper boiler needs a LOT of heat, small parts use small nozzle), which hooks up to a 20 pound propane grill tank with a regulator that screws into the tank. Works very well.

Thanks Chris. You've covered a lot of bases with this post. I've had Kozo's book on my Amazon Wishlist for some time now..........guess I better get it ordered.

Jim
You can get the Kozo books from the publisher, Village Press, at list price. Lots of sellers on Amazon charge more. His New Shay has the most info, covers more techniques than the first Shay book. Even if you don't build the loco, you can get a lot of information.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 02, 2016, 11:24:18 PM
OK!! Too late tonight, but tomorrow is certainly cookie day! I don't think we've ever made a mint chocolate chip cookie....


Cletus.... you're not in that eastern part of the state that's burning are you? God help those folks....

Pete
So, how did the shop gnomes like the cookies?   :LickLips:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on December 02, 2016, 10:00:17 PM
OK!! Too late tonight, but tomorrow is certainly cookie day! I don't think we've ever made a mint chocolate chip cookie....


Cletus.... you're not in that eastern part of the state that's burning are you? God help those folks....

Pete
So, how did the shop gnomes like the cookies?   :LickLips:

 :embarassed: Discovered we didn't have any mint in the house. Will get some tomorrow when we go to the store. Today we baked a "Browned Butter" cake...  ^-^

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 03, 2016, 12:33:36 AM
OK!! Too late tonight, but tomorrow is certainly cookie day! I don't think we've ever made a mint chocolate chip cookie....


Cletus.... you're not in that eastern part of the state that's burning are you? God help those folks....

Pete
So, how did the shop gnomes like the cookies?   :LickLips:

 :embarassed: Discovered we didn't have any mint in the house. Will get some tomorrow when we go to the store. Today we baked a "Browned Butter" cake...  ^-^

Pete
If you can find it, get the baking emulsion mint, the regular mint extract in alcohol bakes off and leaves little flavor.

And who knows, maybe the cake will work on the gnomes too!   :stir:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on December 03, 2016, 02:03:14 AM
Well, the shop gnomes, and the elves, around here sure don't lose any weight this time of year! :lolb:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 03, 2016, 02:09:01 AM
Well, the shop gnomes, and the elves, around here sure don't lose any weight this time of year! :lolb:

Pete

Not here either! Keeping busy with winter leagues and clearing snow helps, but the treats are so GOOD!  :LickLips:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 03, 2016, 02:19:33 AM
The silver soldering on the track frames is done, took several sessions to do all the sides since solder prefers to flow downhill into the joints (that darn antigrav unit is acting up again), so I did all the joints on the long top side with the rtacks angled, then soaked in the pickle solution about a half hour then wire brushed them to clean them up enough to do the base, then again to do the overhanging lip at the bottom.

In the past, most of the silver soldering work I've done has been on copper and brass, and I used Sparex solution for the pickling. That solution does not like steel though (used Sparex can make a nice copper plating solution onto the steel however), so I have tried another method I read about on the net, just vinegar with a teaspoon of salt per cup of vinegar. It did work very well on removing the hardened flux, another new item this time, I am using Tenacity 5 flux rather than the Harris white flux I've used in the past, seems to last longer under heat. The vinegar acts slower, but is much more mild to be around. I have the parts in it overnight to see how much it can clean them up with a longer soak time. From what I've read, it should work fairly well.

Hmmm... got some time to kill, might as well do some quality assurance testing on a few more cookies...  :LickLips:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on December 03, 2016, 03:08:50 AM
Put your parts in a pan of water and bring it to a full boil; the flux come right off. I can see the advantages of a pickle if you were going to do more soldering on a copper or brass part but so far the boiling water has worked just fine for me.

Your parts are looking great BTW.
Dave
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 03, 2016, 03:10:51 AM
Put your parts in a pan of water and bring it to a full boil; the flux come right off. I can see the advantages of a pickle if you were going to do more soldering on a copper or brass part but so far the boiling water has worked just fine for me.

Your parts are looking great BTW.
Dave
I'll give that a try on then next parts I solder, see how it compares. Thanks!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on December 03, 2016, 03:18:53 AM
I've found that soaking steel in water just make rust, especially in the cracks you  want the filler to enter. Boiling water is much faster, much more complete and, if you have your air hose handy, dries almost instantly. Blowing the water out of the cracks is the way to do it. The residual heat makes for a complete dry.

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 03, 2016, 03:29:25 AM
I've found that soaking steel in water just make rust, especially in the cracks you  want the filler to enter. Boiling water is much faster, much more complete and, if you have your air hose handy, dries almost instantly. Blowing the water out of the cracks is the way to do it. The residual heat makes for a complete dry.

Pete
In this case, 303 won't rust like that, but using very hot water is great on lots of stuff, does a great job on cleaning off pistol actions, like you say it pretty much dries itself.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on December 03, 2016, 03:41:03 AM
Well, shoot. I completely forgot that this was stainless.... :embarassed:

Forgive me sire!

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 03, 2016, 04:06:53 AM
Well, shoot. I completely forgot that this was stainless.... :embarassed:

Forgive me sire!

Pete

Well, to be perfectly honest, the thin edge strips are just normal tool steel, since it was the only stuff I could find in the thin and narrow sizes. So, thou arte forgivene...!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 03, 2016, 10:45:58 PM
Well, I left the track frames in the pickle overnight to see what, if any, difference the extra time would make. Not much that I can tell - the first 1/2 hour or so was plenty to remove the hardened flux, and a wire brushing in running water rinsed away the remaining dirt. Almost all the silver soldering I've done up to this point has been on copper, bronze, and brass, which clean up in the pickle solution remarkably well. I guess the steel just doesn't, or at least needs a stronger solution to do any more. However, since these parts will be painted, they are plenty clean for that, so I am moving on. I did sand off the heads of the temporary screws on the belt sander.
(https://s5.postimg.org/oy9cwdhc7/IMG_8811.jpg)
Next step was to mill the sides of the bearing blocks at the end square to the plates - they had moved just a bit from vertical during the soldering - given there was only one screw holding them in the lower corner I am not surprised. So, a couple light passes with the side of the mill and they are straight again.
(https://s5.postimg.org/dn6p80ah3/IMG_8812.jpg)
Then drilled/tapped the holes for the other two bearing block's hold down studs.
(https://s5.postimg.org/6y05rzp53/IMG_8815.jpg)
Here is one of them with some hex bolts to show where the studs will be. The two moveable bearings (one for the front sprocket, one for the center axle) have slots that go over the studs, and tensioning bolts that go forward to the frame.
Next steps on the frames: make the circular chain guides for the lower corners, and drill for the bushings in the rear bearing blocks...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 03, 2016, 11:28:57 PM
FYI to anyone in the northeast US - I just saw that the Maine Forestand Logging Museum has posted some dates for 2017 that they will be running the Lombard:
May 20 - Spring Run
July 29 - Heavy Metal Day, where they will be running both the steam and apparently a gas powered hauler, as well as other engines coming in for the event.
I am planning on being there for both, great chance to see it run and get detail photos and measurements for the model. With a little luck the model should be running for the July event - be great to get some pics of the model with its big brother!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on December 03, 2016, 10:11:20 PM
Chris, I see you and the gnomes have continued to be quite busy. The soldering looks great. Keep on keeping on :)

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 04, 2016, 03:36:21 AM
Got a bit more done tonight - measured for the spacer blocks that hold the track frames parallel with each other, sits between them under the central axle. I don't know what the real block looks like, or if the frames were cast in one piece (though I doubt that) or had one or more block in between. I hope to find out in the spring if I guessed right when I go up to Maine. Either way, it needs something there, so I decided on a 1-1/2" long by 5/16" square block, bolted in from either side. Here it is with the blocks made and being used as spacers while drilling the track frames:
(https://s5.postimg.org/70k1etssn/IMG_8817.jpg)
And a couple of shots of everything bolted together with some loctite for good measure:
(https://s5.postimg.org/pheg5n8qv/IMG_8818.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/kws9qpp1j/IMG_8819.jpg)
The bolt heads are just out of the way of the roller chain, but I am planning to mill them thinner anyway and angle the heads so the chains won't have a tendancy to catch on them.
And here is a picture of the sprockets sitting about where they will when the bearings are made:
(https://s5.postimg.org/nciniajt3/IMG_8820.jpg)

Next time I will get started on boring the holes in the end bearing blocks for the rear axle bearings.

It was brought up by AOG in an earlier post about leaving one of the cotter pins out so I can wrap the tracks in place and pin them then. I wasn't sure, thought I might be able to slip the track over with the bearing in a bit, but that turned out to be incorrect, there is not enough space to slack off the sprockets that much, so I will pull one pin when it comes time to assemble things. Not a big deal, the pins are just bent up out of wire. Everyone keep those comments coming - they have been very helpful so far!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 04, 2016, 06:25:48 PM
Got to work on drilling the rear axle bearing holes in the track frames today. First needed to make up a batch of 2-56 nuts for the bearing blocks out of some 1/8" stainless hex stock (off the shelf nuts wont fit the narrow space, let alone look correct). Drilled hole on the lathe, and used the parting tool to shape and part off each nut.
(https://s5.postimg.org/pvd0wzz7r/IMG_8821.jpg)
Here are the bearing blocks bolted up:
(https://s5.postimg.org/74fp0ku13/IMG_8822.jpg)
and being drilled for the bearings. Some bits of offcuts were used to give a solid purchase in the mill vise.
(https://s5.postimg.org/mefk7rpjb/IMG_8823.jpg)
Here is a shot showing how it will all come together - the wood block under the track frame raises it up to about where it will be when the roller chains are made and installed. As you can see, the axle is a loose fit in the block since I have not made the bronze bearing yet, and also still need to make the bearing block for the front axle, which will also allow tensioning out the track.
(https://s5.postimg.org/40513sd8n/IMG_8827.jpg)
One thing I did learn doing this test fit - it IS possible to install the track without removing a pin! It will require removing the nuts on the front bearing block to allow the front sprocket to raise up, but there is plenty of room to do that and slip the front sprocket into place, which will make trial fits much simpler later on. Also, I think I am going to take a trick from someone elses book (Chuck maybe? KVOM? Dont remember where I read it), and for the rear bearing block I will use some socket head screws with the outside of the head reshaped to a hex. Getting  a nut driver or small open end wrench into the tiny space at the rear block is very difficult, and very hard to get the bolt tightened down, so I will use the hex wrench with the socket head screws in the inside pair of holes. Normally I would use hex head bolts everywhere, but in that place next to the sprocket, under the track, and with the bolt heads almost touching, it just is not practical. The outer ones will have normal hex heads, as long as I install them before the inside pair on each block.

Anyway, this is a major milestone, bringing the track frames into place. Next up I will turn the bearings, and get started on the bearing blocks for the front axles, and the round chain guides for the lower corners of the track frames.

First though, tonight is one of our RC submarine runs at the local Y pool, so time to get that gear together...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: bruedney on December 04, 2016, 07:08:11 PM
Impressive Chris

 :ThumbsUp:

Bruce
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 04, 2016, 08:27:35 PM
Impressive Chris

 :ThumbsUp:

Bruce
Thanks Bruce!
Almost to the point where I can drive the tracks around...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 04, 2016, 08:34:46 PM
The rear axle bearings started out by drilling and turning down some bronze rod...
(https://s5.postimg.org/4e6d3dxc7/IMG_8828.jpg)
and shortening the outside end of the rear sprocket axles to match (had left them long till I knew how wide the bearings would turn out). They are thinner than I would normally do on bearings, but on the real thing the exposed portion is also very thin.
(https://s5.postimg.org/rgww2jytj/IMG_8829.jpg)
Here is how they look just slid onto the axles
(https://s5.postimg.org/f3k1vn953/IMG_8830.jpg)
I think that I am going to do the round chain guides at the lower corners of the track frames next, so that I can finish up all the drilling work on the frames, then move on to the moveable front bearing blocks.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 04, 2016, 10:37:24 PM
And one more set of parts for the day, the cylindrical guides that bolt to the lower corners of the track frame. The roller chain that supports the bottom of the track turns around this guide to go back around to the other end. They started as a bit of 1/2" steel bar, turned the profile into the side to leave a flange at the outer end, and drilled/bored the center, leaving a solid base with a hole in the center to bolt to the frame.
(https://s5.postimg.org/u0siwnmdj/IMG_8831.jpg)
Here are the four parts ready to be notched to fit over the bottom plate on the track frame. The one on the far right is upside down, so you can see the solid base and bolt hole in it. I need to do some figuring to work out the notch in the side of the cylinder - will probably do something really technical like cutting out a paper pattern!
(https://s5.postimg.org/e3tqzxtzb/IMG_8832.jpg)
To see where this is going, here is the picture of the real track frame again, showing the roller chain looped around the guides at the end, which are notched over the bottom plate.
(https://s5.postimg.org/r9xk1c93b/Real_Track_Side_View.jpg)
There is also a short tangent flat plate to connect the cylinders to the middle beam, not sure how I will attach that, probably solder on a piece of sheet stock.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on December 05, 2016, 02:50:30 AM
More nice progress Chris and looking just like the real thing!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Captain Jerry on December 05, 2016, 03:09:23 AM
Quote
The bolt heads are just out of the way of the roller chain, but I am planning to mill them thinner anyway and angle the heads so the chains won't have a tendancy to catch on them.

If they can catch, they will catch.  Why don't you use counter sunk flat head screws and eliminate the possibility? They are completely hidden from view.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 05, 2016, 03:33:48 AM
Quote
The bolt heads are just out of the way of the roller chain, but I am planning to mill them thinner anyway and angle the heads so the chains won't have a tendancy to catch on them.

If they can catch, they will catch.  Why don't you use counter sunk flat head screws and eliminate the possibility? They are completely hidden from view.
Nice idea. Easy enough to run in a countersink. The slots could be filled with some jb weld to make them completely flush. Thanks!!
Not sure if I have some 4-40 cs screws, easy enough to mod some if not.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: fumopuc on December 05, 2016, 04:56:14 AM
Hi Chris, a very impressive project.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 05, 2016, 06:46:52 PM
More on the roller guides. I got the notches milled, so that they fit over the bottom guide plates. Since they go on either end, four had to be milled on one side,
(https://s5.postimg.org/q67ywfdon/IMG_8834.jpg)
and the other four on the other
(https://s5.postimg.org/am0l5w3k7/IMG_8837.jpg)
They were clamped in place on the plates, and the hole in the base used as a guide to start the drill for the bolt holes. Here are the parts all assembled:
(https://s5.postimg.org/cf837ye4n/IMG_8838.jpg)
I also countersunk and ground off the center spacing plate bolts, sort of like Jerry suggested. I did not have any flathead screws in the right size, so I measured the heads of some caphead bolts, drilled a shallow recess that size, loctited in the bolts and milled off the heads, which will leave a clear path for the roller chains.
(https://s5.postimg.org/6fkc4atc7/IMG_8839.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/qo7pq0snb/IMG_8840.jpg)

I think at this point I am ready to start in on the forward bearing blocks...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on December 06, 2016, 12:51:21 AM
I am hearing engine chuffing and track clanking and rattling sounds in my mind as I view these pics. Since the driver was in the front and the engineer in the back, many feet away, there was like more than a few choice words loosed as well.

Excellent job so far Chris.

Tom
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 06, 2016, 12:58:56 AM
I am hearing engine chuffing and track clanking and rattling sounds in my mind as I view these pics. Since the driver was in the front and the engineer in the back, many feet away, there was like more than a few choice words loosed as well.

Excellent job so far Chris.

Tom
Thanks Tom!

A couple more days, and I can at least make the clanking sounds when rolling the tracks back and forth! Maybe run the Shay in the background for the engine noise....
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 06, 2016, 01:20:47 AM
Another shop session this afternoon (its cold/wet outside, great day to stay in), got started on the front sprocket bearing blocks. I started with a chunk of 303 steel big enough to get both the front bearing blocks and the central pivot blocks out of - worked out to less waste to split a wide bar in half than to trim away part of the next size down I had. The bar is thick enough to get both the main block and to turn out the boss around the axle.

Now, here is a prime example of how rolled bar has internal stresses that can come out when you cut it. In the next photo, I had cut the bar in half lengthwise, and laid out the two halves with the outer (formerly) straight edges next to each other:
(https://s5.postimg.org/9b20owmpz/IMG_8841.jpg)
As you can see, the bars have bowed a bit, leaving a gap of about a millimieter in the center. Also, after looking close and holding up a ruler along side them, it was apparent that one bowed more than the other, and more at one end than the other in the same piece. Always something to keep in mind. On these bars, not a problem since there was enough material left to mill both edges back straight again, plus the bars will be cut into short segments anyway.
(https://s5.postimg.org/5fymmc3k7/IMG_8843.jpg)
After sizing the bar, and figuring out the spacing of the slots for the mounting bolts (the bearing blocks can slide a bit to tension the track), I went down the line and spot drilled pairs of holes for each slot.
(https://s5.postimg.org/b5ev6n9qf/IMG_8844.jpg)
and then came back with a 3/32 drill at each position. The final slots will be 1/8" wide, but the smaller drill allowed me to drill either end of each hole without the holes walking into each other.
(https://s5.postimg.org/ah60npb0n/IMG_8845.jpg)
And then came back with a 1/8" end mill, and did a plunge cut at either end of each slot, and again in the center, then cleaned up the remainder.
(https://s5.postimg.org/h8wfqk007/IMG_8846.jpg)
The end mill was not long enough to reach all the way through the bar, so I flipped it lengthwise and did a pass from the opposite side to finish them up.
(https://s5.postimg.org/esumcphxj/IMG_8847.jpg)
Then, before cutting the bar in half to do the shaping on the top/bottom surfaces, I sketched in the outlines of each one so I would not get things backwards later. Note that there are two left and two right side blocks.
(https://s5.postimg.org/np5egn8jr/IMG_8848.jpg)
and then cut the bar in half so I can work on the rest. The bottoms get a notch to ride on the top rail of the track frame, and the after end gets a notch. Once those are done, I will take the blocks to the lathe to turn the outer faces down to form the boss around the axle.
(https://s5.postimg.org/cqu4ygjyf/IMG_8850.jpg)
The sketched in lines are just there to help me orient them correctly, measurements will be used to do the actual cuts.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 06, 2016, 04:30:15 AM
A couple more pictures that I forgot to post earlier - I had blended the corners of the frames into the chain guides:
(https://s5.postimg.org/vzvt27thj/IMG_8851.jpg)
on both sides
(https://s5.postimg.org/411nbcruv/IMG_8852.jpg)
and took some family shots of the parts.
(https://s5.postimg.org/4rudh4u87/IMG_8853.jpg)
 I then put the track assemblies at the distance apart they will be in the final model, a little over 8", which looks huge:
(https://s5.postimg.org/bjksjzj7r/IMG_8854.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/bkuqdel1j/IMG_8855.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on December 06, 2016, 03:55:08 AM
Hi Chris,
 Well after 2 days of not getting my fix, :killcomputer: you have been a busy boy! The tracks are coming on nicely!
  Right off to the shop,  :popcorn: required! It's not growing fast enuff to keep up!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 06, 2016, 06:33:12 AM
Looking good Chris. I'm glad I printed out the pics you posted of the track mechanism and the drawing you made. Helps me to keep track of what is going on.  :)

I'm amazed at how much your material moved when you split it. I'd of believed it for wood (based on experience), but never thought about metal moving that much!

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 06, 2016, 06:36:47 AM
Hi Chris,
 Well after 2 days of not getting my fix, :killcomputer: you have been a busy boy! The tracks are coming on nicely!
  Right off to the shop,  :popcorn: required! It's not growing fast enuff to keep up!

Cheers Kerrin
Thanks! Things have been coming together nicely lately. I want to get the bearings on for the sprockets and the center pivot axle to tie it all together before starting on the roller chains. The chains will take a while, given the number of parts, but I have some ideas on a way to production line tjem with some more jigs and fixtures. Hope they work out.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 06, 2016, 06:43:30 AM
Looking good Chris. I'm glad I printed out the pics you posted of the track mechanism and the drawing you made. Helps me to keep track of what is going on.  :)

I'm amazed at how much your material moved when you split it. I'd of believed it for wood (based on experience), but never thought about metal moving that much!

Jim
Yeah, while cutting down the middle I could see the kerf opening up. I have seen it on brass bar lots of times, which is why I now always do a stress relief pass in the oven on brass bar that I will be cutting down the middle, or even just milling off on one side. For brass its easy, 500f for an hour in the oven (degreased first!) Does the job. For the 303 though, I have read that the temperature required is much higher than a household oven can do. Fortunately in this case there was enough material to mill it straight again. For turning on the lathe its no issue since you are taking evenly from all sides.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on December 06, 2016, 06:03:05 PM
Bud you just keep chewing up the metal and making art with it. Your are sure on a roll Dog and still with you...... :praise2:

Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 06, 2016, 06:33:56 PM
Bud you just keep chewing up the metal and making art with it. Your are sure on a roll Dog and still with you...... :praise2:

Don
Nice having you along for the ride!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on December 06, 2016, 07:54:19 PM
I'm riding with Don,  I'm drinking and he's driving  :lolb: :lolb:. Man, that is looking great.  I just now tried to count the individual track segments;  as the guy at the drive thru Chinese restaurant says everytime I order beef chow mein: "Lotta cabbage" , lotta pieces  :cheers:. I know you want to paint it and having it looking "as delivered" new,  but,  I bet Jerry and I would like to see you just rub a little red clay on what you have  :facepalm: :shrug: :stir:.

Cletus

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 06, 2016, 11:50:58 PM
I'm riding with Don,  I'm drinking and he's driving  :lolb: :lolb:. Man, that is looking great.  I just now tried to count the individual track segments;  as the guy at the drive thru Chinese restaurant says everytime I order beef chow mein: "Lotta cabbage" , lotta pieces  :cheers:. I know you want to paint it and having it looking "as delivered" new,  but,  I bet Jerry and I would like to see you just rub a little red clay on what you have  :facepalm: :shrug: :stir:.

Cletus

Hope its a better ride than the old joke:  "I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather, rather than screaming in terror like the passengers in his car!"

To save the counting, 30 track plates per side, 30 pins, 60 washers, 30 cotters, per side. LOTSA parts!

The frames will be painted, tracks not, it will pick up natural patina outside running plus the wet steam oil dripping around...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Captain Jerry on December 06, 2016, 11:52:53 PM
I don't mind a little paint, but we only had one color in our shops and that was yella. I know Chris isn't going that way so maybe you're right. A little red dog packed in the rollers would look about right.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 07, 2016, 04:45:55 AM
I don't mind a little paint, but we only had one color in our shops and that was yella. I know Chris isn't going that way so maybe you're right. A little red dog packed in the rollers would look about right.
Yella? I'd do more than yell at anyone who got that near this model!! Ick!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 07, 2016, 03:22:33 PM
Catching up on work from yesterday...

Started out with the bearing blocks by milling the slot in the bases to fit over the top rail in the track frames
(https://s5.postimg.org/e1abwh79j/IMG_8856.jpg)
and cutting the notch in the end
(https://s5.postimg.org/4i0n30jrb/IMG_8857.jpg)
At this point I cut the individual blocks apart from the longer bar
(https://s5.postimg.org/zdhtu5r7r/IMG_8859.jpg)
and drilled/tapped the holes in the end for the tension adjusting bolt
(https://s5.postimg.org/ie8vewg07/IMG_8860.jpg)
and then set up in the lathe in the 4 jaw to drill the hole for the axle bushing. The holes were set to line up with the height of the rear axle bushing that is already in the track frame. A spacer was put behind the part to get clearance from the jaws for the facing operation in a couple steps.
(https://s5.postimg.org/3wbo6wop3/IMG_8861.jpg)
The starter hole was then bored out to the size of the bushing
(https://s5.postimg.org/u4rutef47/IMG_8862.jpg)
and the face turned in to form the boss on the outside.
(https://s5.postimg.org/8jms5sidj/IMG_8863.jpg)
Here are the bearing blocks set in place on the track frame, ready to make the bushings.
(https://s5.postimg.org/ovwtviwp3/IMG_8867.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 07, 2016, 05:44:05 PM
This morning I got the bearing block bearings turned out of bronze rod and loctited into place
(https://s5.postimg.org/uld2fu2vb/IMG_8869.jpg)
and then the block ends rounded off on the belt sander, few seconds on each corner with the occasional dip in water to cool them and all set.
(https://s5.postimg.org/oygpid0cn/IMG_8872.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/x58p9xqfb/IMG_8873.jpg)
Also got a start on making the mounting studs to hold the blocks onto the frames.
(https://s5.postimg.org/zb304ftvr/IMG_8875.jpg)
Here is the first one test fitted, when the studs are done I will make up a set of proper size nuts, these commercial ones are out of scale.
(https://s5.postimg.org/qu3htip6v/IMG_8876.jpg)
So, a bit more to do on these parts, then I can start on the bearing blocks for the center axle, which is simaler.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on December 07, 2016, 07:47:02 PM
I'll bet Mr. Lombard would have loved to have you as an employee! Talk about output! And you have been know to work for cookies as well :lolb:

Tom
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 07, 2016, 09:39:33 PM
I'll bet Mr. Lombard would have loved to have you as an employee! Talk about output! And you have been know to work for cookies as well :lolb:

Tom

I will also work for peanuts!!

Popcorn....

Beer...

Batter dipped Haddock...

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 07, 2016, 09:47:21 PM
And I got the rest of the front bearing studs made this afternoon, and during test fitting realized that I have to recorrect my correction of a statement that was in reply to what AOG said...
It is NOT possible to slip the track and sprockets into place without removing a cotter pin and a pivot pin from the track. I thought there was, but once the full length bearing hold down studs were in place, it took up that extra room, and it wont quite go in anymore. It is much easier to pull a pin and replace it than to remove/replace the studs each time. Oh well! 
 :zap:
Still, not a big deal. I think I am close to ready to install the tracks that last time - got to make up a batch of 4-40 nuts for the tops of the bearing blocks, and throw a coat of paint (yes, and mud and grime and smooshed rabbits) at the track frames. The roller chains can slip in with the tracks un-tensioned, as can the center axle pivots.

Not tonight though, have to take a run up to the range and pick up my new compound bow (Merry Christmas to me....)   :whoohoo:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on December 07, 2016, 10:36:24 PM
No No, there would have been no smooshed rabbits,  the crew would have taken them out with a spotlight and a .22 single shot  and had 'em fer supper. I bet Jim will tell you some of the best "feast " he's ever had was on some right of way or job site.  Them boys know how to eat.

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 08, 2016, 07:37:26 PM
Got a start making a batch of 4-40 nuts for the bearing block mounting studs
(https://s5.postimg.org/a41avo5jb/IMG_8879.jpg)
You can see in this shot the difference from hardware store version (center) to the more scale ones on the outsides:
(https://s5.postimg.org/ebw34f6yv/IMG_8878.jpg)
and then got a couple coats of paint (duplicolor universal flat black spray) on the frames and sprockets. I've used this stuff on my submarines, holds up pretty well, dries quick for recoating. Gets a little trickier to get a good light angle for the photos though.
(https://s5.postimg.org/4twc4dlaf/IMG_8880.jpg)
I am going to let it set up before assembling the tracks onto the frames.
(https://s5.postimg.org/lvp66h05j/IMG_8884.jpg)
and with the sprockets set in place above the bearing blocks:
(https://s5.postimg.org/fja0wmx3b/IMG_8885.jpg)
While that is drying, I will get a start on the studs for the center axle and then on the center bearing blocks.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on December 09, 2016, 12:39:42 AM
Hi Chris,
 That's looking soooo COOL, the nut size makes a real difference!
As a thought for your rollers, have you looked to see if you can can drive chain, the rollers are hardened as are the pins? A friend of my some years ago had the need for some hardened short tube or roller, can't remember which...... :old:,  duplex or triplex may give you the size required. Just grind one end off the pins & Bob's your auntie !

Oh on the rabbit front, you might have to gear her up a notch or two!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 09, 2016, 12:46:31 AM
Hi Chris,
 That's looking soooo COOL, the nut size makes a real difference!
As a thought for your rollers, have you looked to see if you can can drive chain, the rollers are hardened as are the pins? A friend of my some years ago had the need for some hardened short tube or roller, can't remember which...... :old: ,  duplex or triplex may give you the size required. Just grind one end off the pins & Bob's your auntie !

Oh on the rabbit front, you might have to gear her up a notch or two!

Cheers Kerrin

I've looked at the drive chains available out there now, the diameters/widths dont quite match up to what I need, so will go the make-em route.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 09, 2016, 12:53:12 AM
Here are a couple of pictures of the tracks assembled onto the frames and bearings:
(https://s5.postimg.org/9l0t053if/IMG_8889.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/9l0t053if/IMG_8889.jpg)

They roll fairly well, even without the roller chains at the bottom, which will help smooth out the motion (I hope).

I know that there are those out there (you know who you are) who wont believe they move without a video, so here it is!
bTNOCn3DwQs :cheers:
Now on to making the center axle bearing and the axle itself - will be a few days, we have several events the next few days, including a train show at the local college.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on December 09, 2016, 02:09:46 AM
Hi Chris,
 That makes all the right noises!

On the chain front, sorry didn't make it clear, was just suggesting the brought chain as a source of supply of the rollers & potentially the pins. Remove them from the brought stuff & make up your own side links. But I guess you still end up in the same boat(err in your case submarine) that the rollers have to be the right size!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on December 09, 2016, 02:33:25 AM
Damn Chris that is awesome Dog. Some nice work...... :praise2:

Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: RJH on December 09, 2016, 02:33:46 AM
It looks great!  But you may have a problem with the roller chain guide, it looks to be to long in the front.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 09, 2016, 02:39:32 AM
It looks great!  But you may have a problem with the roller chain guide, it looks to be to long in the front.
Its in the right spot,  the track is sitting up high since the chain is not there. The rollers are only about 3/16, and you are seeing the overhang from the guide, so the track will be about 1/8" lower. When holding it up it all lines up right. And yes, made me look!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 09, 2016, 02:42:38 AM
Hi Chris,
 That makes all the right noises!

On the chain front, sorry didn't make it clear, was just suggesting the brought chain as a source of supply of the rollers & potentially the pins. Remove them from the brought stuff & make up your own side links. But I guess you still end up in the same boat(err in your case submarine) that the rollers have to be the right size!

Cheers Kerrin
No sweat. And I am not sure if disassembling a riveted chain would be easier than making one from scratch! Besides, this way I can say I made it all. Except for the parts I didn't, like pressure gauge, safety valve, fuel tank...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on December 09, 2016, 03:08:08 AM
It all looks amazing Chris. I haven't looked in a day or two and you are making some fast progress!!  Well done!!


Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 09, 2016, 03:59:39 AM
It all looks amazing Chris. I haven't looked in a day or two and you are making some fast progress!!  Well done!!


Bill
Thank you Bill! Its a big relief that it all moves smoothly after all that work.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on December 09, 2016, 07:39:42 AM
Wow, Chris, that's just pretty cool!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: kvom on December 09, 2016, 02:08:28 PM
Working well.  Your hand makes the scale evident.   :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: vcutajar on December 09, 2016, 03:32:16 PM
 :praise2: :praise2: :praise2: :praise2:

Vince
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Roger B on December 09, 2016, 09:43:55 PM
Magnificent  :praise2:  :praise2: It's hard to keep up with your builds  ::)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 09, 2016, 11:00:44 PM
Thanks all!

Having a great time with this build. Can't wait to see it with the real one in the spring.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 10, 2016, 04:51:46 AM
Looking great Chris!  Looks fresh out of the factory. Love the video.

Performs good for only having 1 HP as in "one hand-power" for an engine!
 
Jim







Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 10, 2016, 11:46:53 PM
Guys - after getting back from the train show, been looking through the photos of the Lombard up in Maine again, and finally found a couple of pictures that show the track frames from the top, in the center where the axle will be. There IS a slab of metal between the two track frames, holding them apart leaving a gap at the ends for the sprockets. I can't tell how far down they go, or how they are attached, but it is a seperate piece (can see the edges of the track frames above the spacer). It could have been welded together, or held with bolts that are behind something else.
(https://s5.postimg.org/nuneex0xz/Axle-1.jpg)
I have been looking in that area to get enough details to model up how the center axle itself and the parts that hold it to the main frame are shaped. There is a spring box there, with angled webs going up to the frame fore and aft. Looks to be some coil springs to give it a little bit of suspension travel, maybe 3 inches worth. The main axle is just a plain rod, goes through the spring boxes and the pivot on the track frames, and is clamped inside and out of all that with a square split plate. Still getting my head around the spring arrangement...
(https://s5.postimg.org/sukumv6kn/Axle-2.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.org/fextxey2v/Axle-3.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.org/f9p2kpolj/Axle-4.jpg)
It looks like the springs are connected to a sleeve around the axle by posts that go through slots next to the coil springs, but I have not worked out what moves which the frame and what moves with the axle...

EDIT: Possible bit of luck, I went back and looked at Lombards' original patent filings, and it looks like he drew the same suspension setup in his description. I am going to dig through the patent and see if I can figure out which parts are bolted to which. And I thought I was able to stop reading patents when I retired!! Sigh...

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on December 11, 2016, 12:38:44 AM
Chris looking close at your photo it looks like a spring within a spring and wound opposite.


Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 10, 2016, 11:08:27 PM
Chris looking close at your photo it looks like a spring within a spring and wound opposite.


Don

I've been going through the patent and the patent drawings, which detail out each part and what each is connected to, though in the usual terse legalese run-on sentances. I believe I have it figured out, and have made some sketches to keep it straight. I think the rust and shadows of the opposite side of the spring make it look like another spring inside but its not. There is a nub at the bottom to hold the spring in place.

What he did was actually pretty simple and elegant. The stirrups with the springs are held with a crossbar on either side, over the square block that the axle slips through. The bottom of the spring rests on the inside of the stirrup, and the top of the spring presses against the main frame.

The crossbars between the stirrups just rest on the axle block. The axle block rides in a slot in the big bracket that is bolted to the main frame. That bracket comes down the inside of the frame, and forms a box beam that extends under the frame - that is the slotted part next to the stirrups that I thought a bar went through, it is actually just a box beam casting. The axle block can run up and down in the big slot in that bracket, compressing the springs as it does so. That bracket has the angled bar running back up to the frame to help stabilize it.

I will model it up in 3D and post some diagrams of it in the next day or so - pretty slick setup.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 10, 2016, 11:34:40 PM
Don, turns out you were 100% corect, found in the Lombard parts list that there WAS a second spring inside the larger one, plus a short cone guide at the ends.
Cool design, I better model this all in 3d soon or I'll have to start over again...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 11, 2016, 05:04:50 AM
Took me a bit to finally get it through my head that these last pictures were taken of the tracks from the inside.  :Doh: Now I can see how that part of the system works.

My hats off to you for being able to look at all your resources and figure this stuff out.  :atcomputer:  The machining might be the easy part of this project!  :shrug:

Jim

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 11, 2016, 03:17:10 AM
I was thrown by the shapes of the brackets on the inside of the frames, finally figured out that half of them wrre the boiler firebox attachment brackets. An invaluable resource has been the parts catalog from the manufacturer that the museum posted. No dimensions, just side views, but names of everything and great clues to how it all worked. The original patent documents give great descriptions too, they have to specify how the mechanism works in great detail to support the claims of the patent. The final product varied some, but this part of the suspension is identical. A really fun puzzle!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 11, 2016, 10:29:10 PM
All right, got it modelled up in 3D, here is how it all works!

Here are the suspension components as seen from the outside of the frame. The rail at the top is the main frame rail of the hauler, and the axle that comes out to the center of the track is the round bar across the middle:
(https://s5.postimg.org/ak9nfmn0n/Track_Suspension_2.jpg)
The fitting at the right end of the axle is a retainer clamp that goes on the outside of the center track bearing block. The gap between that and the round spacer is where the center frame of the track goes. The red parts all move up and down with the track, the gray parts are fixed to the frame.
Here is another view, from the inside of the frame looking out:
(https://s5.postimg.org/ak9nfmn0n/Track_Suspension_2.jpg)
This is a simaler view to the photos I posted the other day of the real hauler.
And here is a view with the top inside red crossbar removed so you can see the inner parts:
(https://s5.postimg.org/ak9nfmn0n/Track_Suspension_2.jpg)
In that view you can see that the square block around the axle has a groove in each side that rides up and down in the bracket coming off the frame. The crossbar rests on top of that block, and connects to the u shaped stirrups at either end that contain the springs. The top of the springs rest against the bottom of the main frame rails. As the axle moves up, it pushes the crossbar and stirrups, compressing the springs. Very slick and simple setup, once you can see all the parts. It took a bunch of digging through the photos and the patent documents to figure it out, but its all sussed out now, so I can make the 2D drawing views and start making parts.

Hmmm.... looking at the first picture, it looks like I made the stirrups a little too narrow, and the outside edge is still just under the frame rail - have to go back and check that, may need to widen it a bit - the stirrup opening should be as wide as the frame rail and the bracket behind it.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 11, 2016, 10:44:43 PM
Yup - stirrup was too narrow, here is the corrected first drawing:
(https://s5.postimg.org/ak9nfmn0n/Track_Suspension_2.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Captain Jerry on December 12, 2016, 02:53:56 AM
Chris - That is great detective work.  Your drawing and description makes the mechanism clear and easy to follow.  Is there something that keeps the springs in position such as a rod through the center.  Is there some kind of seat on the frame where it contacts the spring? I don't see anything in the parts list that would serve the purpose.







Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 12, 2016, 01:02:00 AM
Chris - That is great detective work.  Your drawing and description makes the mechanism clear and easy to follow.  Is there something that keeps the springs in position such as a rod through the center.  Is there some kind of seat on the frame where it contacts the spring? I don't see anything in the parts list that would serve the purpose.
Yes, there is a small cone guide at the ends of the springs to keep them centered. In the parts list it is item 140 on cut nbr 6, where it also shows the nested springs.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Captain Jerry on December 12, 2016, 03:21:43 AM
Got it.  It just doesn't look like a cone on the parts list.  So how does it work, one at the top bolted to the frame and one at the bottom bolted to the spring box?
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 12, 2016, 01:37:18 AM
Got it.  It just doesn't look like a cone on the parts list.  So how does it work, one at the top bolted to the frame and one at the bottom bolted to the spring box?
Exactly. Wide end bolted to the plate, small end into the end coil of the spring. Keeps the spring from sliding out of position. The brace across the bottom of the bracket that angles up to the main frame does two things, keeps the axle block from being able to drop out of the bracket, and keeps the bracket from twisting.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 12, 2016, 05:15:12 AM
Good detective work there "Inspector Crueby"!  :ThumbsUp: You must have watched a lot of episodes of "Columbo".

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 12, 2016, 01:52:22 PM
Good detective work there "Inspector Crueby"!  :ThumbsUp: You must have watched a lot of episodes of "Columbo".

Jim
Yup! And there's always "one more thing!"  But no cigars.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 12, 2016, 06:24:44 PM
A bit more copying/pasting around in the 3D world, and here is what the track and suspension system is going to look like. For now the main frame rails are just stubs till the rest gets modelled up, but it gives you a good idea of how it will all come together.
(https://s5.postimg.org/lhbhbb37r/Track_and_Suspension.jpg)


Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 13, 2016, 12:03:22 AM
Chris---you have the most exciting build going on the whole internet right now.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 12, 2016, 10:13:29 PM
Chris---you have the most exciting build going on the whole internet right now.---Brian

Wow - thanks Brian! 

Though I doubt I can compete with the latest cute dancing kitten video, or whatever is popular these days among the non-machinist crowd... Not a bad thing, just sayin', as Cletus would say!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 12, 2016, 10:19:51 PM
Now that the suspension is mapped out, time to get back to making swarf. I took the other half of the bar I had cut down for the sprocket bearing blocks, milled it up flat and square the same way as the other one, and then drilled/milled the adjustment slots and bottom groove just like the sprocket blocks. The dimensions of these blocks are a little different, but the method was the same to get to this point:
(https://s5.postimg.org/56ycbp9mv/IMG_8894.jpg)
And then sketched on the holes/bosses, and milled the steps in the tops.
(https://s5.postimg.org/toqfzlc7b/IMG_8896.jpg)
After turning in the bosses and drilling the bearing holes, the steps will be rounded off on the belt sander. Next step is to saw the individual blocks apart, and get them ready for the lathe...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on December 13, 2016, 12:53:52 AM
Look at that ... I go away for a couple of days to work on my tug boat and when I get back I don't recognize the place! I have to agree with Mr Rupnow ... This is the most refreshing build I have seen in a long time. Some of the v12's and v8's are pretty special, but this is going to be just plan fantastic :cheers: Not only the building of it, but every step is detailed and every question answered ... and recipes are included :cartwheel:.

My hat is off to you.

Tom
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 12, 2016, 11:14:27 PM
Look at that ... I go away for a couple of days to work on my tug boat and when I get back I don't recognize the place! I have to agree with Mr Rupnow ... This is the most refreshing build I have seen in a long time. Some of the v12's and v8's are pretty special, but this is going to be just plan fantastic :cheers: Not only the building of it, but every step is detailed and every question answered ... and recipes are included :cartwheel: .

My hat is off to you.

Tom

Thanks Tom!

and .... tug boat? tug boat?
An RC model or a real one?  Whatcha got?! (can you tell, I like tug boats?)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on December 13, 2016, 01:07:05 PM
It is a freelance r/c tug. Some of the features of my favorite tugs, built into a Dumas, Mr Darby hull that I was given. It will weigh around 65lbs when in the water and have a pull of between 15 and 20lbs.

I have fabricated and installed a stern roller so far, and got some of the drive system in.

Your hauler would look great on an 8 or 10 foot long barge, behind the tug, and then drive the hauler off onto a beach. Great fun for "older" kids :cheers:

Tom
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 13, 2016, 03:02:47 PM
That's going to be a great looking tug!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on December 13, 2016, 08:24:14 PM
After failing to find Mint Essence anywhere locally, we had to order it from the maker back east...

Baked the cookies yesterday and they are just wonderful!! We've never used that essence, rather than extract, before and it makes all the difference in the world.

This elf has a new favorite chocolate chip cookie!! :whoohoo: :cartwheel:

Thanks Chris!

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 13, 2016, 09:27:09 PM
After failing to find Mint Essence anywhere locally, we had to order it from the maker back east...

Baked the cookies yesterday and they are just wonderful!! We've never used that essence, rather than extract, before and it makes all the difference in the world.

This elf has a new favorite chocolate chip cookie!! :whoohoo: :cartwheel:

Thanks Chris!

Pete

Excellent!!
I found the baking emulsion works so much better too. The regular extract is fine for frosting and such, but it bakes out. Be interesting to see how many fewer shiny things the gnomes steal after a few cookies...!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on December 14, 2016, 01:14:30 AM
I had a good friend of mine in Colorado send me some of those essence emulsions last week. I have had a strong desire for some chocolate chip mint cookies ever since and the shop time just crawls by,  but,  the sunsets sure are pretty,  just saying  :lolb: :mischief: :naughty: :lolb:

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 14, 2016, 12:12:12 AM
I had a good friend of mine in Colorado send me some of those essence emulsions last week. I have had a strong desire for some chocolate chip mint cookies ever since and the shop time just crawls by,  but,  the sunsets sure are pretty,  just saying  :lolb: :mischief: :naughty: :lolb:

Cletus
Sounds more like he sent you a bottle of mint julep!   :DrinkPint:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 14, 2016, 08:13:11 PM
Next steps on the bearing blocks were to cut them off the longer bar, square up the ends, and bore for the bearing and turn in the boss - done very simaler to the sprocket bearing blocks, except these dont have the step in one end:
(https://s5.postimg.org/njcf8xi4n/IMG_8898.jpg)
Then it was on the the bearings, chucked up some bronze bar and drilled/bored the axle hole to size
(https://s5.postimg.org/bvidedszr/IMG_8899.jpg)
and turned the outside down to fit the blocks
(https://s5.postimg.org/xvypv0bnr/IMG_8900.jpg)
The bearings were parted off, and put into the blocks (which have had the ends sanded round on the belt sander) and test fit on the axle:
(https://s5.postimg.org/kt33bqlfr/IMG_8901.jpg)
Now I need to make up some more mounting studs for the top center of the track frames, then I will start on the rest of the suspension parts....
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Roger B on December 14, 2016, 10:41:43 PM
Still following along :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp: (but sometimes struggling to keep up  ::) )
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on December 14, 2016, 10:51:28 PM
Dog that is turning into some bad ass work. I am awed at your progress....... :praise2:

Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 15, 2016, 01:26:46 AM
Well, didn't feel like working on the mounting studs, so I got a little done on the other parts - made up the spacer piece that fits between the pair of bearing blocks on either side, and did a test fit:
(https://s5.postimg.org/xgs1fqf47/IMG_8902.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/q22pnct8n/IMG_8903.jpg)
and then started prepping the stock for the inner axle blocks, that will ride up and down in the slot in the brackets that hold the axle to the frame. I thought I had some 1/2" square steel bar, but I guess not, have plenty of 3/8" square bar but no 1/2". So, took a slice off a larger block of 1/2" thick bar, and squared it up on the mill:
(https://s5.postimg.org/jcw67c7wn/IMG_8906.jpg)
and cut off some shorter lengths for the axle blocks. Here they have the slots sketched in, and the ends marked where they will be turned round (the area with the slots stays square). I like to sketch in this stuff, helps prevent brain farts later on when setting up in the machine...
(https://s5.postimg.org/u0zx66hvr/IMG_8908.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: yogi on December 15, 2016, 04:08:05 AM
Great Project Chris! It's a real joy to follow along.  :popcorn:
Thanks for sharing.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 15, 2016, 02:40:24 AM
Great Project Chris! It's a real joy to follow along.  :popcorn:
Thanks for sharing.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Thanks! Having a lot of fun building it, at least till I get to the drive and roller chains!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 16, 2016, 01:40:13 AM
Continuing on with the axle parts - milled the side slots in the square axle blocks first. These will slip into the bracket coming down from the frame, allowing the axle to slide up and down. The slots are a little wider than the brackets are thick, to allow one side to move independantly of the other and tilting the axle.
(https://s5.postimg.org/x2r5zibyf/IMG_8909.jpg)
then chucked the blocks up in the 4-jaw (you can see one of the side slots under the top jaw) to drill
(https://s5.postimg.org/xtjw5aebr/IMG_8911.jpg)
and bore out the 3/8" hole for the axle
(https://s5.postimg.org/91k9y1x53/IMG_8912.jpg)
and then turned the outer end round. This keeps the end from catching on the track as the track pivots forward and back over any bumps.
(https://s5.postimg.org/aun6mdibr/IMG_8913.jpg)
Here are the axle parts so far slipped onto the axle.
(https://s5.postimg.org/scg3q8pfr/IMG_8916.jpg)
And a closer look at one end of the axle. In this shot you can see the square axle blocks on the inside, with the round portion acting as a spacer so the tracks clear the frame, then the pairs of bearing blocks with another spacer between them. That last spacer is important so that any side load on the tracks does not tip one of the bearing blocks. All of these parts so far are just a slip fit onto the axle, there will be clamp blocks at either end of each group to hold everything in position.
(https://s5.postimg.org/4jhz5yh3b/IMG_8915.jpg)
Here is how it looks in place on the track:
(https://s5.postimg.org/z27rqx69z/IMG_8917.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/n1qx3xo93/IMG_8918.jpg)
And now on to the clamp blocks I mentioned - started out with some flat bar stock cut to length, then held in the 4-jaw to bore (yet another) hole for the axle.
(https://s5.postimg.org/99ci8axhj/IMG_8920.jpg)
This hole can be a slip fit at this point, since the block will be cut in two and will clamp back onto the axle with a bolt at either side. Here I am milling out the steps at the corners for the bolts to sit against. The step at the top will be rounded off later.
(https://s5.postimg.org/4byxn6vif/IMG_8921.jpg)
Once I get the rest of the steps milled in, I will drill for the clamping bolts, round the center steps, cut the two halves apart, and round the ends. Enough for one day, time to go watch some TV and eat Christmas cookies with the shop elves!


Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on December 16, 2016, 12:03:54 AM
You're really  moving along here... but the ride is very smooth!   Nice!

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 16, 2016, 04:54:32 PM
You're really  moving along here... but the ride is very smooth!   Nice!

Pete
I bet the ride on the hauler gets a bit bumpier!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 16, 2016, 05:03:58 PM
This morning I got he bolt holes in the axle clamps drilled
(https://s5.postimg.org/bpnidmubr/IMG_8922.jpg)
then rounded off the steps and the ends on the sander, and marked them with number stamps before cutting them apart.
(https://s5.postimg.org/diqf1yfif/IMG_8923.jpg)
Here are some pictures of how the clamps fit on the ends of the axles, holding the suspension parts from sliding back and forth.
(https://s5.postimg.org/g1c42n18n/IMG_8924.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.org/rrq1k0u13/IMG_8925.jpg)
I need to mix up a fresh batch of 2-56 and 4-40 nuts, give these parts a quick coat of paint, and they can be assembled onto the tracks! Next parts up will be the brackets and spring assemblies that connect the axle to the main frame...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 16, 2016, 07:49:12 PM
While looking at the parts after making up a batch of 4-40 nuts for the bearing blocks, I realized that things were not lining up properly. I went back to the photos of the real hauler, and realized that I had not left room for the drive chain from the differential back to the rear sprocket axle. There needed to be more room between the track and the main frame for the drive chain and sprockets.

So, quick tweak to the 3D model
(https://s5.postimg.org/ak9nfmn0n/Track_Suspension_2.jpg)
to lengthen the spacer bushing between the square axle block and the track frame, which gives this gap between the main frame and the track:
(https://s5.postimg.org/limsxebif/Complete_Hauler_v54.jpg)
Rather than completely remake the original block, I drilled a length of 1/2" bar and made an extra spacer:
(https://s5.postimg.org/n78gitzpj/IMG_8926.jpg)
That will give the room needed for the drive chain, and narrows up the span of the main frame (which is how I noticed the error, the frame was looking too wide compared to the original).
Fortunately, a simple fix!

Back to making up a batch of 2-56 nuts for the axle clamps...

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on December 16, 2016, 07:51:35 PM
Yeah,  I saw the weather in Rochester Mr. Benny  :lolb:. Ain't much else to do but eat cookies and make parts  :cheers:

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 16, 2016, 07:56:22 PM
Yeah,  I saw the weather in Rochester Mr. Benny  :lolb: . Ain't much else to do but eat cookies and make parts  :cheers:

Cletus

Wow, showing your age on that one!

Wait, I got it too... Dang!  Um, saw it on the history channel, yeah, thats it!   :old:

Today is actually not too bad, we got another 6 inches of snow last night, fortunately the fluffy stuff so easy to move, but the driving yesterday was awful with wind causing whiteouts. Nice thing about retirement, when the weather gets nasty, I head for the shop rather than the car! Tomorrow is going to warm up, and we may get half an inch of rain before the next snowstorm. Gotta love living near the big lakes!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 16, 2016, 11:49:40 PM
Got some more 2-56 nuts made up, and the axle clamps in place:
(https://s5.postimg.org/fc2ihrfgn/IMG_8927.jpg)
and so it was time to do a test fit of the axle assembly with the tracks - just a couple of the nuts holding the bearing blocks for now, since they need to come off for painting again.
(https://s5.postimg.org/afyvq2fbb/IMG_8935.jpg)
and a shot of everything together:
(https://s5.postimg.org/x3e4w7uvb/IMG_8931.jpg)
While they were together, I could not resist a quick video of them rolling on the table, along with testing the pivotting action of the axle bearings, like they would going over bumpy ground
ueYZNsYWYl0Very happy with that progress, time to go put on a movie and eat some Christmas cookies with the shop elves (they like action movies, like The Terminelver, Marvel's Elves of Shield, that sort of thing)...  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Captain Jerry on December 17, 2016, 01:08:25 AM
Beautiful show.  Looks good, works good.  I can hardy believe how easy it must have been. :NotWorthy:

Enjoy your cookies, I'm having pie.  It is easier to stop with one piece of pie than it is with one cookie.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on December 17, 2016, 01:15:03 AM
Yup ... I can just hear all of the appropriate noises now ... even over the crunching of the popcorn :popcorn:

Tom
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 17, 2016, 03:23:04 AM
Looks and works great Chris! Although with the snow you have back there and that being a snow vehicle and all, I would of thought you'd of done the test out in the snow!  :lolb:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 17, 2016, 02:12:19 AM
Thanks guys!

It will be interesting to see how much smoother it gets once the roller chain is made. That will be started after the last of the suspension parts are done, most likely just after Christmas.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: fumopuc on December 17, 2016, 04:54:45 AM
Hi Chris, nice progress and excellent craftmanship.  Waiting for the roller chains.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 18, 2016, 02:27:16 PM
In planning out for the rest of the suspension parts, I realized another 'virtual' error in the 3d model - the open side of the 'C' in the main frame rails was pointing out rather than in, which put the axle bracket on the wrong side. Simple fix, just rotated the parts, all the dimensions and parts were correct, just were assembled backwards.
Here are new views of the outside
(https://s5.postimg.org/ak9nfmn0n/Track_Suspension_2.jpg)
and inside
(https://s5.postimg.org/ak9nfmn0n/Track_Suspension_2.jpg)
and a view without the crossbars to show how the axle bracket looks
(https://s5.postimg.org/ak9nfmn0n/Track_Suspension_2.jpg)
and the view of all the parts together:
(https://s5.postimg.org/limsxebif/Complete_Hauler_v54.jpg)
With that sorted, I am off to take the current axle assembly off the tracks for some paint, and then get started on the axle bracket parts...

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on December 18, 2016, 05:43:46 PM
Dog that is cooler then a crawfish hitting a pot of hot water.......I........like........ :Love:


Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: kvom on December 18, 2016, 06:19:18 PM
I mainly read this thread to learn more of Don's pithy expressions.   ;D   :lolb:

Actually it's a great build even without them.  Still trying to figure out what role the roller chain plays.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 18, 2016, 04:39:06 PM
Dog that is cooler then a crawfish hitting a pot of hot water.......I........like........ :Love:


Don

I mainly read this thread to learn more of Don's pithy expressions.   ;D   :lolb:

Actually it's a great build even without them.  Still trying to figure out what role the roller chain plays.

I love them too! I would have used Lobster in the saying, but both work!

The roller chain acts like a linear set of needle bearings, along the bottom of the track frame so that the track plates are not rubbing along the frame but instead riding on the rollers. It is interesting that in his original patents, Lombard used a row of discs just like a more modern army tank would have the road wheels (though the modern version has overlapping rows), but for some reason after the initial prototype he switched to the roller chain method instead. I don't know why, seems more complicated and expensive than a set of discs - I know he had problems with breakage on the track plates early on, and switched to a different steel alloy for them, maybe that was part of the reason.

Here is the picture of the roller chain on the real one again:
(https://s5.postimg.org/r9xk1c93b/Real_Track_Side_View.jpg)
Imagine as the track is driven around, and the weight of the whole machine (19 tons) is pressing down, the tracks push up into the roller chain, which presses against the flange above it (there is a roller chain on the inside of the track frame as well). The rollers move back at half the speed of the tracks, turning as they go, just like a ball bearing race would. Pretty clever solution to support the tracks against the ground.  Maybe the reason for the switch was to get more points of contact than it was feasible with rows of the discs, which only had 4 they way he did it. Here is a picture from the patent, you can see the discs in the lower left view:
(https://s5.postimg.org/8a6f7lz9j/LBIII.jpg)
With the discs, maybe there were problems with the track plates rocking more, with the chain version they would have been held more even.
Its also interesting that in the patent, the drive chain was on the outside, where in production he moved it to the inside. Neat stuff.


Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: kvom on December 18, 2016, 06:45:44 PM
OK, roller chain makes perfect sense.

Now how does it steer?  Can one track be disconnected from the other?
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 18, 2016, 04:52:48 PM
OK, roller chain makes perfect sense.

Now how does it steer?  Can one track be disconnected from the other?

The steering was done just with the skis or wheels at the front, both tracks were always driven together. He did put a differential in the drive axle to allow the tracks the run at different speeds during a turn, but had not learned how to drive them independantly yet. According to the histories, he did experiment with having the differential earlier in the drive train, so the engines on either side could be run independantly, but found that when they got in sync with each other that the vibration made the machine want to hop up and down, so that was abandoned. The first prototype actually did not have the steerable ski, but used horses in front to pull it to the side, but that proved inefficient at best, and scared the road apples out of the horses when going downhill and the hauler sped up!
They ran the haulers on iced roadways, with ruts for the skis on the front and also the skis on the log sleds formed into the ice - they had machines (called 'rutters', imaginatively) they would pull along the roads to form the tracks and clear snow, and had crews pouring water at night to make the ice. The tracks on the hauler were on a wider stance, so they would not chew up the ruts.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 18, 2016, 04:58:38 PM
While waiting for the paint to dry on the axle assembly, I got blanks for the mounting bracket cut down out of a longer bar of 303 steel, milled the cut edges square, and laid out the first cuts. The box in the center shows where it will be made into a hollow box beam shape. As before, these lines are not milled to, but just are guides so I dont turn things around and mill the wrong side.
(https://s5.postimg.org/4akuzel8n/IMG_8936.jpg)
I started by milling the notch in one end where it fits around the main frame. The part still needs to be thinned a little, the bar was thicker than needed by a fraction.
(https://s5.postimg.org/qnslm7m6f/IMG_8937.jpg)
Here is the first bracket sitting next to the painted axle (dry to touch, needs to sit and cure for a while still)
(https://s5.postimg.org/lqf113k7b/IMG_8938.jpg)
I'll get the other bracket notched, then continue with the shaping later...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 19, 2016, 12:33:29 AM
Continuing on with the axle support brackets, after milling the step in the end of both, I took a light cut off the back of the whole bracket to bring it down to the proper thickness (nearest size bar I had was one size up).
(https://s5.postimg.org/6vqfmxamf/IMG_8939.jpg)
and then turned them on their side to chain drill the slot in the wide section, since the original part was a casting shaped like a box beam with a tab sticking up. I drilled halfway through from each side
(https://s5.postimg.org/wfsptcw07/IMG_8940.jpg)
and then used a mill to connect the holes up. This was done from either side, since the mill cutter is not long enough to reach all the way through (the part is a little over an inch wide).
(https://s5.postimg.org/6yab9re9z/IMG_8942.jpg)
and then came one of those 'nobody will ever be able to see this, but I'll know its there' moments - used a square needle file to square off the corners of the slot that the end mill left, to make it match the shape of the original part.
(https://s5.postimg.org/qhewj4d1j/IMG_8944.jpg)
And then back to the mill, chain drilling around the perimeter of the opening where the axle box will slide in.
(https://s5.postimg.org/sn97dmghz/IMG_8945.jpg)
Followed by using the mill to take it out to size. You will note that I left the bottom in place - I will take that bit out last, after all the other shaping and drilling operations are done. Since the top tab will be shaped into a set of curves, if I cut the bottom opening out now then try and clamp it back in the vise, it would only have a narrow section at the top that goes full width.
(https://s5.postimg.org/ayhgm04qv/IMG_8946.jpg)
Here are the parts to this stage sitting next to the axle blocks that they will slip over.
(https://s5.postimg.org/mc8lay4nb/IMG_8947.jpg)
The next step will be to drill the mounting holes at the top, and shape the top into the curves like the original has. The paper to the side has the spacing for the holes worked out.
(https://s5.postimg.org/4apgd5amf/IMG_8948.jpg)
After that is done, I will go back and cut the bottom of the slot apart, and drill the holes in the base for the crossbar that closes the opening again, and angles up to the main frame.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on December 19, 2016, 01:17:25 AM
Still following along quietly but in amazement Chris!!  Don't know what else to say.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 19, 2016, 01:23:37 AM
Still following along quietly but in amazement Chris!!  Don't know what else to say.

Bill

Thanks Bill!

How about 'pass the popcorn'?  :embarassed:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 19, 2016, 03:48:35 AM
Dang...........that's a rather "busy" part!

It's been really interesting to see how you've taken the original drawings and figured out how to use bar stock to make the parts.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 19, 2016, 04:32:01 AM
Dang...........that's a rather "busy" part!

It's been really interesting to see how you've taken the original drawings and figured out how to use bar stock to make the parts.

Jim
Its got to be the most complicated bracket I've ever made!  If it was bigger I'd probably have made it from pieces, but at this size it was easier to carve it from solid. I'm sure the original was a cast part.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on December 19, 2016, 11:35:26 AM
Hi Chris,
 Its looking like a filing machine is needed in your Xmas Stocking!

Love what you are doing! Oh found a substitute for  :popcorn:.... Xmas mince pies! (Followed by a gym sub  :lolb:)

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 19, 2016, 01:13:37 PM
Hi Chris,
 Its looking like a filing machine is needed in your Xmas Stocking!

Love what you are doing! Oh found a substitute for  :popcorn:.... Xmas mince pies! (Followed by a gym sub  :lolb:)

Cheers Kerrin
A while back I bookmarked some filing machine builds, someday will make one... Not sure where I'd put it, shop is pretty full already!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 19, 2016, 08:25:33 PM
Continuing work on the axle brackets, next step was to decide how to fasten them to the main frame rails. Some of the parts on the original were bolted, some were rivetted - it was tough to tell how these brackets went on, so I decided to rivet them. The only pre-made small rivets that I have handy are all in brass, and besides wanting them to be steel, the brass ones were too short, so it was easy to decide to make them from bar stock. I can hear some of you out there right now, thinking I am nuts (pun!) to be making them, but it only took about 20 minutes to make 16 of them - not a big deal. They started out by turning the shank onto a length of bar stock:
(https://s5.postimg.org/5ee62uknb/IMG_8949.jpg)
and then parting them off:
(https://s5.postimg.org/tw69qqn7r/IMG_8951.jpg)
These steps actually went quick because of two very handy features: a quick change tool post and zero-resettable handwheels, so once the first one was laid out, it was very quick to turn the same diameter over and over, counting turns from the end to get the length right.
After the parts were all done to that stage, each was chucked up once more by the shank, and a quick spin to smooth off the little nub that the parting tool left, as well as rounding over the head:
(https://s5.postimg.org/rg4gcw553/IMG_8953.jpg)
leaving this little pile of rivets:
(https://s5.postimg.org/upivjct8n/IMG_8955.jpg)
With that done, I could then know what size holes to drill in the bracket tops:
(https://s5.postimg.org/ue1f6lcsn/IMG_8957.jpg)
and then drilled/tapped the holes in the base for the angled crossbar to be made later:
(https://s5.postimg.org/5yt75jdvr/IMG_8958.jpg)
At this point, it was time to shape the top of the bracket into the curves that the original has. I started out by doing the concave sections with the mill, doing the same cut on each part and each side before moving on so that the two brackets would be symetric and match each other:
(https://s5.postimg.org/7rw3tuz2f/IMG_8960.jpg)
and the over to the disc/belt sander to do the outer curves (done on the left one in the photo):
(https://s5.postimg.org/pjcbm23uv/IMG_8961.jpg)
leaving the parts at this stage:
(https://s5.postimg.org/rcf8adp1j/IMG_8962.jpg)
Last step was to cut out the remaining part of the base, to free up the two sides and leave the slot. That was done with the hacksaw, then a few light passes on the mill to get it flush to the sides:
(https://s5.postimg.org/9aw3ckv0n/IMG_8963.jpg)
And the brackets are done! One needed a couple strokes of the file to get it to slide easily on the axle.
(https://s5.postimg.org/3nzqf3shz/IMG_8966.jpg)
and here is where it will spend more of its time, once the spring frame is in place, with the rivets in the holes to show how they will look:
(https://s5.postimg.org/h7gkkt6h3/IMG_8968.jpg)
And the obligatory family shots:
(https://s5.postimg.org/qgiquxfd3/IMG_8970.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/cbcxt46br/IMG_8972.jpg)
Next stage I think will be making the angle brace that goes across the bottom of the brackets, and angle up to the bottom of the main frame...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: kvom on December 19, 2016, 11:19:21 PM
I would have suggested drive screws as an alternative to rivets, with solder as the primary attachment.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 19, 2016, 09:24:37 PM
I would have suggested drive screws as an alternative to rivets, with solder as the primary attachment.
This is setting the stage for the rest of the boiler/etc brackets, which are rivets in a lot of places on the original. The boiler and water tank will have many many of them.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 20, 2016, 01:23:34 AM
The angle braces for the bottom of the axle bracket are done, pretty straightforward pieces to make, they are a simple flat bar (plus a short reinforcing bar at the center), bent to shape and drilled for mount holes in the center and the ends.
(https://s5.postimg.org/vs28tdqtj/IMG_8975.jpg)
Here is what they look like bolted into place - the main frame will run across the center bracket, and the ends of the angled bar bolt into the bottom of the frame rail.
(https://s5.postimg.org/ur20499tz/IMG_8976.jpg)
Again with some paint added
(https://s5.postimg.org/479f249af/IMG_8978.jpg)
and some shots with them bolted onto the axles...
(https://s5.postimg.org/72mi8zdaf/IMG_8984.jpg)
With the black parts, its getting tough to arrange the lighting for decent pictures.
(https://s5.postimg.org/lzzknqfwn/IMG_8986.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.org/n3jozp0jr/IMG_8988.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.org/h3vxw1frb/IMG_8990.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 20, 2016, 01:50:44 AM
Oh - and I should mention that the angle bar is one of the few places that I have used plain tool steel rather than stainless, since I could not find any 303 in the thin/narrow sizes, like 1/16" x 1/4" and 1/16" x 3/16".

Does anyone know if there is a source for 303 stainless in sizes like that? I've rarely seen it in sizes under 1/8" thick.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 20, 2016, 05:18:49 AM
Another nice step forward Chris.  :ThumbsUp:

I see a picture of your belt sander. What I can see of it looks nice. What kind is it?

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 20, 2016, 03:59:50 AM
Another nice step forward Chris.  :ThumbsUp:

I see a picture of your belt sander. What I can see of it looks nice. What kind is it?

Jim
Its a dremel belt/disc sander I picked up years ago, takes 1" belts and sticky back 5" discs. I like the Sandvik/Klingspor belts and discs. Very handy unit for quick rounding of corners. The corners on the brackets took less time than to take the picture, just a quick swipe while turning the part on the table. Much quicker than setting up the rotab would have been, and these are just decorative edges so absolute precision is not an issue. I use same sander for bevelling rudders and fins on the subs, etc.

Was just in the shop, had forgotten to put in the tensioning bolts on the bearing blocks, added those and they worked to tighten up the tracks, very cool!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: rwenig on December 20, 2016, 11:13:14 PM
Your page on the Lombard hauler construction was just pointed out to me. I must say a challenging job and beautiful construction. If you didn't know, the Western Development Museum in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan has a full size one which they run from time to time. The model they have has a vertical engine.
    Did you find the chain links you were looking for? I'm not sure if they are made in the size your looking for but they are available as "half links" for bicycle chain and larger chain.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 21, 2016, 02:20:07 AM
Your page on the Lombard hauler construction was just pointed out to me. I must say a challenging job and beautiful construction. If you didn't know, the Western Development Museum in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan has a full size one which they run from time to time. The model they have has a vertical engine.
    Did you find the chain links you were looking for? I'm not sure if they are made in the size your looking for but they are available as "half links" for bicycle chain and larger chain.
The vertical engine version was made by a company called Phoenix that licensed the patent for the tracks from Lombard. They had a twin cylinder engine on each side, rather than the single horizontal one per side than tne Lombard, but the displacement was less per cylinder, so the net power was simaler. They also used a shaft drive vs the chain drive. Other than that, very close to same machine. Both are fascinating machines.

I was not aware of the half link chains, they would be perfect for the drive chains, right shape, but I don't see them anywhere in a nbr 25 or 35 chain  other than as individual links, which would be very expensive. Do you know of any source for full chains in those sizes?

The track roller chains are unique in that the cross pin has a roller that is larger than the hieght of the side plates, and also are shaped like the half link chains. At this point I am assuming that I will need to make them, but if you can point me to a source for smaller sizes that would be great. So far I have found them only in acetal plastic, which is not durable enough.

Thanks for the tip on the half link chains, will do some more looking...

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on December 21, 2016, 12:28:08 AM
Lots more progress Chris, I think you got that warp drive thingy going again. Either that or the shop elves are putting something in the cookies  :lolb: Seriously nice work though!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 21, 2016, 02:50:59 AM
Lots more progress Chris, I think you got that warp drive thingy going again. Either that or the shop elves are putting something in the cookies  :lolb: Seriously nice work though!!

Bill

Actually I prefer using my vortex manipulator, less cost per year travelled than the Tardis...   :Lol:

Though usually the shop elves just turn loose the Cyber-Elf that they built me, it makes part overnight for me.
(https://s5.postimg.org/i525rkslj/IMG_8991.jpg)


Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on December 21, 2016, 01:38:57 AM
That dude looks like he would eat stainless steel cookies!! :o

Seriously good lookin' track assys Chris!! :ThumbsUp:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 21, 2016, 01:40:50 AM
Is this any help?
https://concordsheetmetal.com/materials/stainless-steel/?gclid=CLO0vsmThNECFRmewAodOyADdw
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 21, 2016, 04:13:44 AM
Is this any help?
https://concordsheetmetal.com/materials/stainless-steel/?gclid=CLO0vsmThNECFRmewAodOyADdw
What I've been looking for is 303 in the thinner sizes (like 1/16) in flat strip stock rather than sheet stock, since I don't have a good way to cut or shear off even strips. In lieu of that, have been using tool steel strips, which I have been able to find. Thanks for the pointer though!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 21, 2016, 05:08:56 AM

The track roller chains are unique in that the cross pin has a roller that is larger than the hieght of the side plates, and also are shaped like the half link chains. At this point I am assuming that I will need to make them, but if you can point me to a source for smaller sizes that would be great. So far I have found them only in acetal plastic, which is not durable enough.


Lets see..........it looks like 40 rollers per chain and 4 chains...........thats only 160 rollers to knock out! Hopefully it's of a diameter that you can buy stock for. Then there's the side plates. The bright side is that making those chains should be a small project compared to the tracks! Christmas is coming, so that might give you some leverage with the shop elves!  :Lol:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 21, 2016, 05:43:33 AM

The track roller chains are unique in that the cross pin has a roller that is larger than the hieght of the side plates, and also are shaped like the half link chains. At this point I am assuming that I will need to make them, but if you can point me to a source for smaller sizes that would be great. So far I have found them only in acetal plastic, which is not durable enough.


Lets see..........it looks like 40 rollers per chain and 4 chains...........thats only 160 rollers to knock out! Hopefully it's of a diameter that you can buy stock for. Then there's the side plates. The bright side is that making those chains should be a small project compared to the tracks! Christmas is coming, so that might give you some leverage with the shop elves!  :Lol:

Jim
Then there are the drive chains, at least only two of them....
As with the track plates, jigs and fixtures will be the key to knocking out mass quantities of the parts. I have some ideas for them, will see how it plays out. The parts themselves are simple shapes, simpler than the tracks were, at least.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: rwenig on December 21, 2016, 06:37:02 AM
    The half links are sold as individual parts. They are sometimes called "offset links". Here is one source <https://www.thebigbearingstore.com/offset-links/>. Scroll down to the #35 and #25 size. Another link <http://www.andymark.com/Roller-Chain-25-Series-p/am-0682.htm>. Any place that sells the chain should have the half links. I think the chain and links are available in SS as well.
    Wish I could help you on the rollers but I suspect your right that you will have to make them.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: rwenig on December 21, 2016, 06:42:57 AM
Quote
The vertical engine version was made by a company called Phoenix that licensed the patent for the tracks from Lombard. They had a twin cylinder engine on each side, rather than the single horizontal one per side than tne Lombard, but the displacement was less per cylinder, so the net power was simaler. They also used a shaft drive vs the chain drive. Other than that, very close to same machine. Both are fascinating machines.

   I stand corrected I should have remembered the Phoenix.
Rupert
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: rwenig on December 21, 2016, 06:44:33 AM
#25 SS half links at <http://www.rollerchain4less.com/Offeset-Link-25-Stainless-Steel-Half-Link_p_1748.html>
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 21, 2016, 03:10:05 PM
    The half links are sold as individual parts. They are sometimes called "offset links". Here is one source <https://www.thebigbearingstore.com/offset-links/>. Scroll down to the #35 and #25 size. Another link <http://www.andymark.com/Roller-Chain-25-Series-p/am-0682.htm>. Any place that sells the chain should have the half links. I think the chain and links are available in SS as well.
    Wish I could help you on the rollers but I suspect your right that you will have to make them.
Yeah - that was all I could find in the 25 series was the individual half links - at those prices though, the chains I would need would cost a bundle to make up, so I think I will stay on the make-em-myself path. The larger 1/2" pitch chains like on bikes is available a number of places all made up in full chains, will keep that in mind for future projects. Thanks for the look!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on December 21, 2016, 06:34:55 PM
I done ate 6 bags of hog cracklings and 6 links of boudin and damn Dog you just keep going like a alligator is hot on ass. Your putting this old coonass to shame son with all that speedy work........ :ThumbsUp:


Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on December 21, 2016, 06:52:45 PM
Darn Don,  if you had red beans and rice with the boudin he might could use you as the torch on the next soldering op,  just saying  :lolb:. Chris,  if you aren't familiar,  Google boudin and yes they  (and I ) eat it  :lolb: :lolb:

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 21, 2016, 09:11:07 PM
I done ate 6 bags of hog cracklings and 6 links of boudin and damn Dog you just keep going like a alligator is hot on ass. Your putting this old coonass to shame son with all that speedy work........ :ThumbsUp:


Don

Darn Don,  if you had red beans and rice with the boudin he might could use you as the torch on the next soldering op,  just saying  :lolb: . Chris,  if you aren't familiar,  Google boudin and yes they  (and I ) eat it  :lolb: :lolb:

Cletus

Um, I have very little idea WHAT the heck you guys said!

Yup, another damn yankee northerner here!!  :cheers:


 Assuming it was about food, I'll mention that I just got back from a great lunch with a couple old friends that I used to work with, had the batter-dipped Haddock, yum!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on December 21, 2016, 07:29:59 PM
Ha, I slipped in the back kitchen and fried me some beer battered Pollock for lunch  :lolb:

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Jo on December 21, 2016, 07:42:25 PM
Ha, I slipped in the back kitchen and fried me some beer battered Pollock for lunch  :lolb:

Cletus

Even the cat turns its nose up at Pollock   (http://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/smilie/ekelig/g026.gif)

Jo
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on December 21, 2016, 07:46:15 PM
Picky cat, I thought it quite tasty
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on December 21, 2016, 10:27:23 PM
Ha, I slipped in the back kitchen and fried me some beer battered Pollock for lunch  :lolb:

Cletus
I guess it's somewhat like a pogie fish except pogie are very oily. We eat it but also make fertilizer and perfume with it. They are High in protein.

Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 21, 2016, 11:32:14 PM
Ha, I slipped in the back kitchen and fried me some beer battered Pollock for lunch  :lolb:

Cletus
I guess it's somewhat like a pogie fish except pogie are very oily. We eat it but also make fertilizer and perfume with it. They are High in protein.

Don

Guess I'm picky too, use Pollock for the bait fish it is!   :disappointed:   At least the stuff the mass packagers use. My favorite is Haddock, fresh off the dock up in Maine.... Mmmmmmmm.....!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 21, 2016, 10:05:43 PM
Ha, I slipped in the back kitchen and fried me some beer battered Pollock for lunch  :lolb:

Cletus
I guess it's somewhat like a pogie fish except pogie are very oily. We eat it but also make fertilizer and perfume with it. They are High in protein.

Don

Guess I'm picky too, use Pollock for the bait fish it is!   :disappointed:   At least the stuff the mass packagers use. My favorite is Haddock, fresh off the dock up in Maine.... Mmmmmmmm.....!

It's Ling Cod ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingcod ) for me when it comes to fish and chips!

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 21, 2016, 10:08:45 PM
Moving on to the last set of the suspension parts, its time to make the stirrups that hold the springs up against the bottoms of the frame rails. I cut off a length of 3/8" x 1" bar long enough to get all 4 parts plus some to hold with, and started by drilling a series of holes around the inside of the openings.
(https://s5.postimg.org/4v4xz7ksn/IMG_8993.jpg)
and then, realizing that I should have first cut the little notches in one side of each to allow the side bars to sit in tighter and clear the axle clamps, went back and did that next.
(https://s5.postimg.org/i0kg5beo7/IMG_8994.jpg)
Now, back on track, I ran a hacksaw down the rows of holes and broke out the center strip, so that I could start milling the inside surfaces of the u-shaped stirrups to size:
(https://s5.postimg.org/q7cfww4qv/IMG_8995.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/sq2qbbfuv/IMG_8996.jpg)
This took the sides to size, but left the bottom corners round,
(https://s5.postimg.org/pki4l3x8n/IMG_8997.jpg)
so stood the block up and did another pass to take the bottom surface down and square up the corners:
(https://s5.postimg.org/wozxu54hz/IMG_8998.jpg)
and then cut the 4 stirrups apart from the block:
(https://s5.postimg.org/ar3h0cphj/IMG_8999.jpg)
Next time I will clean up the cut edges, and prepare the side bars, which will bolt to the upper sides of the stirrups....
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 22, 2016, 03:41:46 AM
That's all really nice Chris, but what does that have to do with cooking and eating white fish?  :Lol:

Oh wait..........this is the machining channel.............not the food channel................my bad!  :lolb:

Anyway, the parts, or parts within a part look great.

Jim

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 22, 2016, 06:21:05 AM
That's all really nice Chris, but what does that have to do with cooking and eating white fish?  :Lol:

Oh wait..........this is the machining channel.............not the food channel................my bad!  :lolb:

Anyway, the parts, or parts within a part look great.

Jim

Thanks Zee... I mean Jim!   :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 22, 2016, 04:46:39 AM
That's all really nice Chris, but what does that have to do with cooking and eating white fish?  :Lol:

Oh wait..........this is the machining channel.............not the food channel................my bad!  :lolb:

Anyway, the parts, or parts within a part look great.

Jim


Thanks Zee... I mean Jim!   :lolb:
:mischief:
Speaking of Zee.........where is that boy? I miss his posts. I learned a lot from him.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Roger B on December 22, 2016, 11:13:08 AM
Excellent tracks  :praise2: and a good, if brief, food section (even if I didn't understand it all  :headscratch: )
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 22, 2016, 06:38:49 PM
I was watching some of the videos on the Maine logging museum website, great stuff,  here are a couple that are particularly interesting:

Lombard hauling logs in the winter:
wFTe4KRmod8
The museums hauler, first snow run after restoration:
WdUC2-X7CRI
Their run from this past November:
iIACtwYil7M
and their full page of videos:
http://www.maineforestandloggingmuseum.org/lombard-steam-log-hauler-38-runs
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 22, 2016, 06:49:56 PM
After flattening the cut edges on the stirrups with the mill (no pics, all you could see was the outer edge above the vise anyway), on to the crossbars. A set of four were cut to length, and then two of them were rabbetted at the ends so that they would form a half-lap joint. This is needed so that the bars will clear the axle clamps.
(https://s5.postimg.org/d7eh5ombr/IMG_9000.jpg)
and then holes were drilled for the mounting bolts at both ends of the crossbars
(https://s5.postimg.org/rf45ubz0n/IMG_9001.jpg)
and matching holes in the tops of the stirrups. It was important that the holes in two of them were mirrored, so that the holes match with both ends of the crossbars.
(https://s5.postimg.org/omayaayo7/IMG_9002.jpg)
Last hole was for a mounting bolt in the bottom of the stirrup, that will hold the spring retainer cone later, I need to find (or make) a set of springs first, to know the size of the cone.
(https://s5.postimg.org/ah558hpmv/IMG_9004.jpg)
Got the first set tapped and bolted together...
(https://s5.postimg.org/jdfxcfg93/IMG_9006.jpg)
and a couple shots of how it fits onto the axle bracket. It rests on the top flat of the axle box, and the springs in the stirrups will press against the bottom of the frame rails.
(https://s5.postimg.org/ueb2hg8hz/IMG_9007.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.org/71d0yxsef/IMG_9008.jpg)
I think getting the springs and the cones sorted out will be the final pieces of the suspension. A little paint, then on to the roller chains.
One thing I have coming in the mail is some gun blueing chemicals, I want to experiment with that, as a possible alternative to painting everything. I'll post some pics of how that works out next week...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: GailinNM on December 23, 2016, 09:10:05 AM
It's all your fault Chris.

 This great thread inspired me to start building a long desired IC powered crawler tractor.  I borrowed a few of your elves, bribed them with milk and chocolate chip cookies, and turned them loose on the CAD system.  Must have fed them too many cookies.  They got fat and lazy and took a long winters nap.  So, I had to start the design myself with only the shop dog for assistance.

Thanks for the boot in the back side with this great tread.

Tractor Thread starts at:
http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php?topic=6737.new#new

Gail in NM
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 23, 2016, 03:37:54 PM
It's all your fault Chris.

 This great thread inspired me to start building a long desired IC powered crawler tractor.  I borrowed a few of your elves, bribed them with milk and chocolate chip cookies, and turned them loose on the CAD system.  Must have fed them too many cookies.  They got fat and lazy and took a long winters nap.  So, I had to start the design myself with only the shop dog for assistance.

Thanks for the boot in the back side with this great tread.

Tractor Thread starts at:
http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php?topic=6737.new#new

Gail in NM
Blame gleefully accepted!! (Snicker)

After doing a number of static engines, it seemed time for one that could move itself around, and the crawler style is something not done that often.

And just like Gremlins, you have to be careful how much/when you feed the shop elves!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 23, 2016, 04:58:49 PM
I've been playing around with the shapes for the roller chain that supports the bottom of the tracks, and have gotten it modelled up in 3D
(https://s5.postimg.org/kk7g2dtdz/Roller_Chain_Sprocket_v6.jpg)
The way I am thinking at the moment, the rollers will be a seperate piece than the pins, since the pins will be rivetted over at the ends and won't spin well. The pins narrow down after they go through the roller and the first track rail, so that when I rivet the end the outer track rail will go up against the shoulder.

At least that is the current plan, we'll see how that holds up to the first test parts! All will be steel, with the side rails bent to shape from 1/16" x 1/8" stock, then drilled, then cut off the longer bar.

In order to do the bending, I've been playing with shapes for a bending jig:
(https://s5.postimg.org/kk7g2dtdz/Roller_Chain_Sprocket_v6.jpg)
This one will let me form both sides in one go, so that the distance in the center will always be the same - that is the critical length. The form blocks on top will be bolted on, so I can change/modify them as needed. I will probably also need some sort of locating/holding jig for the drilling operation, to repeatably position in the mill vise without much fiddling.

The shaping on the pins should be doable with a parting tool in the lathe, so I don't think I need any fixtures for that. Yet. I think...

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 23, 2016, 09:52:47 PM
And got a start on the bending jig for the chain side rails. Started by milling the recesses in the end of a couple blocks of steel bar
(https://s5.postimg.org/up0yjrgnb/IMG_9009.jpg)
and then positioned them for drilling for the bolts to hold them all together. Took a little fiddling to get things to line up, but not bad:
(https://s5.postimg.org/57ik05yx3/IMG_9010.jpg)
Here it is ready for its first test bend - the handles are back, and some thin flat stock slipped into place (marked where that one was, figure it will take a couple tries to find out how far through to have it project)
(https://s5.postimg.org/myu6emebr/IMG_9011.jpg)
and both handles pulled in tight (well, pic shows one back a little, ran out of hands to hold it and take the picture)
(https://s5.postimg.org/5a2fn02kn/IMG_9012.jpg)
and the shape on the test bar:
(https://s5.postimg.org/60v5ss4xz/IMG_9014.jpg)
It is pretty close, may need to grind a little off one side of the form blocks to adjust the over travel since the amount of spring back I allowed for was a guess. It looks like the blocks are not being held quite solidly enough, there is a little slop in the bolt holes. I might get it lined up again and run in some drive fit pins, was tempted to silver solder them down, but I don't want to make it THAT permenant if I dont have to. Some dowel or taper pins should do the trick.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on December 24, 2016, 02:24:25 AM
Now, just add a shear and hydraulic actuator then come back in the morning and they'll all be bent, cut and ready!!

 :noidea:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 24, 2016, 02:57:21 AM
Now, just add a shear and hydraulic actuator then come back in the morning and they'll all be bent, cut and ready!!

 :noidea:

Pete
Sounds like a Mythbusters build! Shears, hydraulic pump, C4, blast shields...

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on December 24, 2016, 05:33:38 PM
Nice jig Chris! That's a lot of parts to make for sure, but that should make them consistent. Gonna need some more popcorn or recipes while following along  :)

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 24, 2016, 11:57:24 PM
Thanks Bill! No new work on it today other than throwing some loctite in under the form blocks, still want to run a set of pins.

That will be after Christmas, lots of family and friends stuff for a few days, also got a couple of bottles of a fantastic Belgian Triple abbey style ale from a friend with a microbrewery to test out, awesome taste, sneaky strong kick to it too (around a 12% alcohol content!). Goes great with dark chocolate, but puts shop off limits!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on December 25, 2016, 12:40:43 AM
Enjoy Chris, probably best to keep it away from the shop elves though, a few sips and they would be snookered  :lolb:

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 25, 2016, 02:45:48 AM
After a suitably safe desnookering time I sent one of the shop elves back to drill/ream/install a taper pin near the business end of each form block, and the sideways movement went away, the rail bending jig is ready for action next week! The bending action generates a lot more twisting force than I had expected. Leverage works!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 25, 2016, 09:34:33 PM
The gun cold blueing chemicals I had on order arrived yesterday, and got a quick test. On Brownell's website they have some great tutorial videos on how to use a lot of the gunsmithing products they sell, and the one on blueing mentioned that since there are SO many different alloys of steel and stainless steel, that it is hard to predict which one will work best on any given alloy without testing. They showed several different products that have cold application solutions, which do not require heating the metal, hot tanks, etc, which is much more attractive for doing numerous small parts in a home shop. I picked three of them as well as a can of thier TCE degreaser spray, which does not leave any of its own residue behind.

So, on to the test. I grabbed an offcut piece of 303 stainless off the bench, and gave it a spray of the degreaser, then wiped that off with a clean paper towel. No other sanding, buffing, steel wooling, etc, since I wanted to know how it would behave on parts that have areas that I cannot get sanded clean, which is more typical of the parts on this model. So a quick degrease, then applied a couple drops of each solution on a section of the metal, let sit for a minute, then rinsed off. They recommend using another spray of the degreaser to nutralize the chemicals and stop the reaction. Here is a photo of the results, with the product used behind each test patch:
(https://s5.postimg.org/l9ccyg0sn/IMG_9015.jpg)
and a close up:
(https://s5.postimg.org/d58u7g3rb/IMG_9016.jpg)
On this metal, it is a clear winner with the Birchwood Super Blue - a nice solid dark black finish. All three appear to be a durable color, at least to handling and fingernail scraping. On a different alloy, one of the others could well do better. I have used simaler brass and aluminum blackening formulations, there again the results varied with the alloy.

Given these results, I may well use this for a finish on the rest of the frame parts rather than painting, which looks very good but is not as durable to handling and use - the track and axle frames already have scrapes through the paint in places. Since this is going to be an operating model, the blueing process looks like a better way to go at the moment.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 26, 2016, 03:37:28 AM
Well, big correction on the bluing post!

I was curious if the bluing chemicals would work for touching up the scratches in the paint on the stainless parts without messing up the surrounding paint, and was surprised to see absolutely nothing happening. Anywhere. Then dabbed some on the the test piece from earlier, nice reaction. Then pulled some fresh bar, still has the 303 stainless label on it, and found the chemicals might have well been water for all the nothing they did. Turns out the test piece I tried must have been a chunk of CRS or maybe some W1 steel. Near as I can find out, cold bluing on stainless is limited to certain alloys, 303 not being one of them.

So, the test I showed is fine for other alloys, not for stainless. Whoops!!   :facepalm:    :noidea:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Johnmcc69 on December 26, 2016, 02:37:46 AM
 :ThumbsUp:
 Thanks for posting the findings Chris. A friend of my who is a gun collector has mentioned trying some of these....I've mentioned your build  (& my excitement), about building model engines, He's getting closer.  :slap: As always, fantastic build,  :embarassed: I was going to mention to you about some of the track parts losing a little paint earlier from playing with them too much..but, how could you not? I love it all.

 I hope the shop elves treated you well for Christmas, didn't eat too many cookies, & had visions of Lombard haulers dancing in your head.

 Looking forward to the book.  :stir:

 John
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 26, 2016, 05:00:14 AM
:ThumbsUp:
 Thanks for posting the findings Chris. A friend of my who is a gun collector has mentioned trying some of these....I've mentioned your build  (& my excitement), about building model engines, He's getting closer.  :slap: As always, fantastic build,  :embarassed: I was going to mention to you about some of the track parts losing a little paint earlier from playing with them too much..but, how could you not? I love it all.

 I hope the shop elves treated you well for Christmas, didn't eat too many cookies, & had visions of Lombard haulers dancing in your head.

 Looking forward to the book.  :stir:

 John

Thanks John! Christmas went great here, just out with the elves looking at all the stars, got some nice tools today, lotsa food, good time had by all!

I've been going back and 3d modelling the fixtures, generating views and plan sheets for everything, plus accumulating old pics and articles for the book. I have been in touch with the people up at the museum in Maine and have a couple trips there planned forthis spring and summer. Can't wait!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 26, 2016, 05:01:07 AM
Well, big correction on the bluing post!

I was curious if the bluing chemicals would work for touching up the scratches in the paint on the stainless parts without messing up the surrounding paint, and was surprised to see absolutely nothing happening. Anywhere. Then dabbed some on the the test piece from earlier, nice reaction. Then pulled some fresh bar, still has the 303 stainless label on it, and found the chemicals might have well been water for all the nothing they did. Turns out the test piece I tried must have been a chunk of CRS or maybe some W1 steel. Near as I can find out, cold bluing on stainless is limited to certain alloys, 303 not being one of them.

So, the test I showed is fine for other alloys, not for stainless. Whoops!!   :facepalm:    :noidea:

Chris,

Elvis Presley did a song about this called "Blue (ing) Christmas" if I remember the title correctly!  :naughty:

Your results today reminds me of this quote:  “I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work.”  :shrug:
― Thomas A. Edison

Merry Christmas to you and your helpers.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on December 26, 2016, 06:04:34 AM
The blueing/blackening of sstl, out side of an industrial setting, has been a holy grail of gunsmiths for a long time, Chris. I wanted to say something when you first posted the testing but decided to wait. For all I knew, Brownells had come up with the magic elixer!!  But not to be.

The gas cylinder/front sight base on the Garand rifle is stainless steel. It's blackened at the 'factory' and the finish is great. But after a lot of use it wears off and makes shiney places not desired on combat equipment. Armorers have wanted something besides paint but no joy..... yet!

This project of yours is just wonderful!!

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 26, 2016, 06:29:10 AM
Always fun to learn something new, at least new to me!

Some chemistry student somewhere probably came up with what we need, just didn't know it, and flushed it!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: AOG on December 26, 2016, 06:12:25 AM
Chemical blueing is a form of corrosion layer. The stainless part of of stainless steel inhibits good corrosion as well as bad corrosion. That's why you had problems. On another note chemical blueing isn't very robust. It will rub right off under handleing loads. That's one of the reasons I switched to hot blueing. It's still not as robust as a commercial blue but it's more durable than the chemical stuff and you have control of the shade you get.

Tony
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 26, 2016, 06:47:27 PM
Well, so much for the 'blues'! I've gone back to experimenting with the fixtures/parts for the roller chains, making a set, checking fit, tweaking sizes in the plans, repeating....

More details in a few days when I get the process sorted out....
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 26, 2016, 05:31:45 PM
Well, so much for the 'blues'! I've gone back to experimenting with the fixtures/parts for the roller chains, making a set, checking fit, tweaking sizes in the plans, repeating....

More details in a few days when I get the process sorted out....

I'm looking forward to the next installment, Chris.

Also, I've been meaning to mention that I really enjoyed the Lombard videos you posted. Having followed along on your track building project, it was neat to see them working in real life.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 26, 2016, 07:46:18 PM
Well, so much for the 'blues'! I've gone back to experimenting with the fixtures/parts for the roller chains, making a set, checking fit, tweaking sizes in the plans, repeating....

More details in a few days when I get the process sorted out....

I'm looking forward to the next installment, Chris.

Also, I've been meaning to mention that I really enjoyed the Lombard videos you posted. Having followed along on your track building project, it was neat to see them working in real life.

Jim
Thanks Jim, I particularly liked the ones where they were out in the snow. Can't wait to get up there and see it running in person.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 28, 2016, 04:00:41 PM
All right, the holiday festivities are winding down, time to get back into the shop again....

One of the tool presents this year was a small powered chop saw from MicroMark, nice little unit with both wood cutting blades and metal cutting abrasive wheels:
(https://s5.postimg.org/tu0og1h53/IMG_9017.jpg)
Nice little unit, should make cutting the side plates for the chains much easier! There are a number of cheap knockoffs of these saws, from what I have seen they are worth the cheaper price - this one is much better built.
Here is a test on some of the bar stock I was using to test the bending jig:
(https://s5.postimg.org/y4fcbmm87/IMG_9019.jpg)
Nice clean cut, the vise holds well, though I think I am going to rig up a length stop for doing repeated cuts. With the small toothed blade it should be a handy addition for the wood models as well.

Back on the chains, I did some experiments with the link pins. The initial design calls for doing the pins with a step to hold the outer plate, rivetting over the ends to hold it all in place. Note the word initial - more on that below.
(https://s5.postimg.org/tu0og1h53/IMG_9017.jpg)
I made up a test part, starting with cutting the end step in a longer length of bar stock in the lathe using a parting tool
(https://s5.postimg.org/7xe5fo3yf/IMG_9020.jpg)
and then moving the bar out since it is too thin to use the parting tool that far out from the chuck, and cranking in the distance from the first step to position another one at the other end
(https://s5.postimg.org/ecd6ccao7/IMG_9021.jpg)
and then parting off the piece
(https://s5.postimg.org/sk2v0znd3/IMG_9022.jpg)
Then I got out the rivetting fixture I made earlier for the track pins, and drilled a new hole at the end so that I could let the side rail overhang
(https://s5.postimg.org/tnmzcy807/IMG_9024.jpg)
positioned the rail on the stepped post,
(https://s5.postimg.org/vgpw19t6v/IMG_9025.jpg)
and peaned it over with a ball peen hammer. I think the post I started with was a little tall, leaving the head larger than I would want - one of the things to fine tune.
(https://s5.postimg.org/i12vbtkp3/IMG_9026.jpg)
Here are the parts so far, ready to slide in the other rails, the roller, and peen over the other side.
(https://s5.postimg.org/hplez2493/IMG_9029.jpg)
All that goes fairly simply and quick, but it does require lots of steps for each pin, and also drilling different sized holes in each end of the side rails, which would get old quickly. I did another test with just rivetting over the head of the full diameter rod, without the step, and think that it will work out just as well. The rod was stiff enough that it did not bend, and only headed over at the end being hammered. So, once I get the first few side rails and rollers made I will try that method as well. Given that I need to make four roller chains, each 30 or 40 links long, plus two simaler drive chains, the simpler they are the better. I am still waiting on my order of the narrower bar stock for the side rails, hope that will be here in the next couple days.
In the meantime I got started on the rollers for the center of the chain. They are a simple thing to make, drill a 1/2" deep hole in the end of some round steel bar, and part off two rollers (filing the corners round as I go).
(https://s5.postimg.org/y2022j7yf/IMG_9031.jpg)
Move the bar out and repeat.
(https://s5.postimg.org/3yljal4p3/IMG_9032.jpg)
After a couple of short sessions, making about 30 at a time, I had the pile needed for the roller chains. Just need to nip off the little burs left by the parting tool (they pull off with pliers very easily).
(https://s5.postimg.org/9badopslj/IMG_9033.jpg)
While waiting for the side rail stock, I am going to do some more experiments with the pins to see how well the non-stepped versions work, and figure out exactly how long they need to be to rivet over without tightening down on the inner rails. Then I can mass produce a pile of those.
The bending jig is working for the side rail stock, I think I will also need a holding jig for drilling them - should be able to make up a simple jig to align and hold them in the mill vise.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 28, 2016, 04:50:07 PM
While I was on the computer, figured I might as well make up the plan for the rail drilling fixture in 3D. Here is a screen grab of it:
(https://s5.postimg.org/oy1n236dj/Chain_Rail_Drilling_Fixture_v2.jpg)
The main part of it is thinner than the side rails are wide, so that it will let the vise grab the rail parts rather than the fixture. The top and one side edges were left thicker to rest on top of the vise jaws, so that it will always position the same. To use, I can slip it into the vise, put in 3 of the rail parts (limited by the width of the vise jaws), and clamp down the vise. Then I can crank horizontally along, drilling all the holes, and know that the positions are repeatable. The slots where the parts will go are spaced at .600 centers, so once the mill is zeroed on the first on, it will be even numbers of turns on the handwheel to get to the next one.

Once I get to drilling the parts, I'll show it in use...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on December 28, 2016, 05:47:11 PM
Awesome work Chris your just one little busy beaver, you don't come up for air. I have that Micromark chop saw and very disappointed with it. No power when cutting metal parts and takes forever. It's great for the real small stuff but .5" or more sucks.


Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 28, 2016, 07:18:50 PM
Awesome work Chris your just one little busy beaver, you don't come up for air. I have that Micromark chop saw and very disappointed with it. No power when cutting metal parts and takes forever. It's great for the real small stuff but .5" or more sucks.


Don

I would agree with that - it cuts the thin steel (1/8" or so) with no problem, I can see where it would bog down for thicker stock, but for that I would get out the hacksaw or the recip saw anyway. For the little parts, like the chain rails and pins that I am going to be cutting, it looks to be fine.

Otherwise its like a crawfish trying to be a lobster! (hows that for an attempt at Southern humor?)   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: vcutajar on December 28, 2016, 08:02:34 PM
Congratulations on your new toy.

Vince
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 30, 2016, 12:34:34 AM
All right, got a couple other tasks out of the way, and the metal bar (1/16" x 1/8") for the chain side rails arrived today, so time to get back to the chain construction. The bending fixture is putting out consistant results - been a few posts, so here is the bender again:
(https://s5.postimg.org/myu6emebr/IMG_9011.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.org/5a2fn02kn/IMG_9012.jpg)
and I added a stop block to the new little chop saw - just a block of wood stuck on with a drop of superglue for now, I want to go back and make an adjustable one later on. The block is positioned so that it just touches the front corner of the bar being cut, so it wont jam the part against the blade when it cuts through.
(https://s5.postimg.org/jqh0h06pz/IMG_9040.jpg)
I have bent and cut a set of the side rails, here is how they look set up with one of the rollers:
(https://s5.postimg.org/z9ege4f0n/IMG_9037.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.org/x6416gf7r/IMG_9038.jpg)
Now I need to make the drilling jig
(https://s5.postimg.org/oy1n236dj/Chain_Rail_Drilling_Fixture_v2.jpg)
so that I can test with the cross pins, and fine tune the length of the pins so that when the ends are rivetted they are a close fit, but don't bind the inner rails from pivotting...


Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: GailinNM on December 29, 2016, 11:15:07 PM
Looking great  Chris.
Little parts are sluch fun.  Reminds me of a cartoon from years ago that shows several men crawling aroundon the floor of the office of Micro Parts, Inc.  Caption read "We dropped last weeks production".
Gail in NM
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 30, 2016, 01:59:28 AM
Looking great  Chris.
Little parts are sluch fun.  Reminds me of a cartoon from years ago that shows several men crawling aroundon the floor of the office of Micro Parts, Inc.  Caption read "We dropped last weeks production".
Gail in NM

 :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 30, 2016, 10:13:59 PM
Some more progress on the chains, so far so good! I started today by making the drilling jig for the chain side rails. Picked a chunk of 5/8" wide brass that was thicker than the rails are wide, then milled down the face of it, leaving 0.100" rails on the top and one side:
(https://s5.postimg.org/7vdkejrpj/IMG_9041.jpg)
then switched to a smaller end mill and evened up the inside corner, finishing with a notch so that the corner will fit square onto the top corner of the mill vise, so I can index it the same every time from there:
(https://s5.postimg.org/52kcuird3/IMG_9042.jpg)
Then, flipped it up vertical, with a parallel bar under it to make sure it was level to the mill, and milled out the wider openings in the top:
(https://s5.postimg.org/5td30atqf/IMG_9043.jpg)
then a deeper cut for one side of each opening, for the lower leg of the rails to drop into:
(https://s5.postimg.org/s6ktn3uo7/IMG_9044.jpg)
Here is how the rails will sit in the jig. The jig will sit down on the top rail, so the rails will be held by the vise:
(https://s5.postimg.org/qst6rsvev/IMG_9045.jpg)
And the first test run, three parts held in place, centered up the front/back travel on the table on the part and locked that down, then positioned the drill at one end and zeroed the handwheel so I can get back there quickly. To use, start at the zero position on the right, drill, advance 6-1/2 turns, drill, advance 5-1/2 turns to next part, and repeat.
(https://s5.postimg.org/e2oyepngn/IMG_9046.jpg)
followed by the actual drill
(https://s5.postimg.org/58y1xm0hz/IMG_9048.jpg)
And here are the first set of parts. If the vise was wider, I would have made 4 (or more) at a time. At least this way, it is repeatable positioning with minimum time, and only one drill change every three parts.
(https://s5.postimg.org/kixx4sw07/IMG_9049.jpg)
After a trial fit, I decided to go from a 3/32 drill (which matched the size of the rod), up to a 0.096 drill so the parts would move easier. Here is a picture with the first cross pin rivetted in place, and the next one (at the top) just slid into place to show the continuation. What I did was peen over one end of the rod in the rivetting jig, assemble the parts for the one link, then hold it on the anvil and peened over the other end of the pin.
(https://s5.postimg.org/ogps7y87b/IMG_9051.jpg)
The first pin that I cut was a little too long, so I removed it by filing off the head, and tried another one 10 thou shorter - that seems to be the sweet spot, no slop, but loose enough for the rails and roller to pivot. Here is a shot of where it will slide in at the bottom of the track:
(https://s5.postimg.org/o58bv6rrb/IMG_9052.jpg)
I may need to go back and grind a little bit off the round roller guide at the ends, where the chain turns around, it looks like it might rub on the chain rail as it makes the turn. But, all in all, it looks like I can go into mass production mode on these parts. One set down, 143 to go.... 
 :o
I think there will be a number of sessions at the bench interspersed with some time on the computer designing up the next parts (sprockets, differential, frame) in the 3D program over the next week...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 31, 2016, 12:37:59 AM
In trying to decide whether to use the lathe to part off the pins to length, or set up the chop saw with the abrasive wheel to do it, I was noticing that the rod (some 3/32 steel) was not parting cleanly, and seemed to be moving in the chuck. So I stopped, ran the bar out a few inches and tightened up the chuck again, and wiggled the outer end - could see the bar moving sideways back and forth in the chuck. So I shone a light behind it, and could see that the chuck jaws are only touching the bar at the innermost corner, leaving an unsupported V down each jaw face.

As the Mythbusters would say, Well - There's Your Problem!

I then put in some 3/8" bar, same gap. This would explain sometimes when threading bar with the tailstock die holder and larger thread sizes, that sometimes the bar would slip in the chuck, leaving a score around the bar at the inside corner of the chuck jaws.

I then got out my older 3-jaw chuck (also Sherline brand) that I had left set up with the jaws reversed to avoid the chore of reversing them back and forth constantly for larger or smaller stock, set up for normal inward jaws, and tried that one: it clamps down evenly on the whole length of the jaws. Parting off with that chuck went nice and smooth, without the movement and wobbling.

So, questions for you guys: is the gap I am seeing due to a worn set of jaws and/or chuck? Is it supposed to be that way? If not, anything I can do to fix this short of buying a new chuck?

 :help:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: GailinNM on December 31, 2016, 01:47:59 AM
Can you reverse the jaws on the newer chuck and see if it is OK on larger stock? If so use it for larger diameter stock and use the older one for smaller.
Gail in NM
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 31, 2016, 02:37:39 AM
Can you reverse the jaws on the newer chuck and see if it is OK on larger stock? If so use it for larger diameter stock and use the older one for smaller.
Gail in NM

Hi Gail,

On larger stock with the jaws reversed it only grips on the shorter steps, which on these chucks is only about 3/16", so it would be fine for that. The one thing I much preferred about the newer chuck was that they staggered the tommy-bar holes around the rim, so that there was always a pair positioned well for tighten/loosening, on the older chuck they are evenly spaced a 3rd apart, so on some stock the positions are awkward. Small price to pay for a better grip, so I may do as you suggest if there is no easy/cheap way to fix the newer one. For now I will continue using the old one.

Chris
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 31, 2016, 02:58:34 AM
I ran through and bent/cut to length a bars worth (3' long) of the side rail stock, enough for about 3 dozen pairs of side rails. Went pretty quickly, less than an hour. Then got started turning down some more pins to test the length on them some more. To repeatably cut the to length quickly, I took the frame from the dial indicator holder, took out the indicator, and swung it in till it would touch the end of the rod. Starting with the parting tool lined up with the end of the rod, I cranked in the distance equal to the desired length of the pin, and tightened down the indicator frame.
(https://s5.postimg.org/tymz9hssn/IMG_9053.jpg)
With this setup, I can loosen the chuck, run the rod out till it touches the frame, tighten the chuck, then run the parting tool inwards to cut to that length. Instant length stop, as long as I leave the long axis feed crank in the same spot for each part.
(https://s5.postimg.org/s83y80b9j/IMG_9054.jpg)
After cutting a few of them, I drilled some more side rails, and did a test assemble:
(https://s5.postimg.org/k55rwoqo7/IMG_9056.jpg)
Not bad, but a little tight, could use a little longer pin to let it flex easily, figure if it lays over under its own weight than it should be fine for the model.
(https://s5.postimg.org/u16uwbwg7/IMG_9055.jpg)
So, will adjust it back out a little and try again. The assembled chain segments can be recycled (except for the pins) by filing off the head of a pin and pushing it back through. A couple more tests and it should be good. If I was setting up a cnc machine to do this, I would probably go back to the stepped pins, but for manual machining the simple straight pins are much faster to do.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on December 31, 2016, 04:27:06 AM
Those links really look the part Chris!!  Your patience and persistence are to be admired as your results plainly show!! 

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 31, 2016, 04:30:02 AM
Those links really look the part Chris!!  Your patience and persistence are to be admired as your results plainly show!! 

Bill
Thanks Bill, with the jigs it looks like it will be quicker to make than the tracks were, there are a couple dozen more parts but they are lots simpler.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: /// on December 31, 2016, 07:56:56 AM
Very very nice. Really enjoying following your build!  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on December 31, 2016, 08:17:47 AM
 :popcorn: :popcorn:
Looking good Chris!

Wonder if my rivet squeezzer would work on those pins, wouldnt need the mod ive done.
 The standard head with the right bits would probably work

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: gbritnell on December 31, 2016, 03:26:06 PM
Chris,
I'm truly enjoying this build. Your fixture work is extremely informative and I really like the bending jig.
This is going to be an amazing machine.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 31, 2016, 03:42:01 PM
:popcorn: :popcorn:
Looking good Chris!

Wonder if my rivet squeezzer would work on those pins, wouldnt need the mod ive done.
 The standard head with the right bits would probably work

Cheers Kerrin

I built a simaler squeezer tool a couple of months ago when Florian did posts on his, it works great on the shorter rivets, but on these long pins there is a tendency for it to widen farther down or bend since it is such a slow pressure. Doing it with a hammer  is working very well, the quick impacts just heading over on the last 10 thou or so. The squeezer tool is going to get a big workout on parts like the water tank and the faux firebox shell.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 31, 2016, 03:42:47 PM
Chris,
I'm truly enjoying this build. Your fixture work is extremely informative and I really like the bending jig.
This is going to be an amazing machine.
gbritnell

Very very nice. Really enjoying following your build!  :ThumbsUp:

Thankx!!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on December 31, 2016, 03:56:22 PM
Hi Chris,
 Yep can see how that would happen! Haven't used mine in anger yet, always seems to be something that pops to the top of the list. Made it to close 3/16 steel rivets for the loco frames, its a 16 ton wire crimper so its got enuff drive its just the "C" arms that may not hold up! Shouldn't be a problem on the 3/64 ones for the tanks, even though they are stainless!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 31, 2016, 04:20:50 PM
Hi Chris,
 Yep can see how that would happen! Haven't used mine in anger yet, always seems to be something that pops to the top of the list. Made it to close 3/16 steel rivets for the loco frames, its a 16 ton wire crimper so its got enuff drive its just the "C" arms that may not hold up! Shouldn't be a problem on the 3/64 ones for the tanks, even though they are stainless!

Cheers Kerrin
Mine will be much easier, being brass rivets. 16 tons ought to form yours just fine!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 02, 2017, 03:42:39 AM
In between holiday events/visits, and another trip to the local Y pool with the RC submarine group, I've been getting some more done on the parts for the track roller chains. So far I have all the rollers made, and have now gotten all the side rails bent
(https://s5.postimg.org/6avtx1tzb/IMG_9059.jpg)
and with the aid of a newly whipped up adjustable length stop on the mini chop saw set up with an abrasive cutoff wheel,
(https://s5.postimg.org/libtheltz/IMG_9058.jpg)
now have the side rails cut to size:
(https://s5.postimg.org/8gq4rjxfr/IMG_9060.jpg)
Last jobs before assembling the chains will be to cut the pins, and drill the side rails. I've decided to cut the pins on the chop saw, can do that lots quicker than stopping/starting/rechucking the lathe for each pin.

For those who may have missed it, these roller chains are actually used as roller bearings, not for driving any mechanism. The roller is taller than the side rails, so that they sit between the track plates and the track support frame, and act like a linear set of bearings:
(https://s5.postimg.org/limsxebif/Complete_Hauler_v54.jpg)
This setup is unlike the rows of wheels that most crawlers use today - Lombard actually started with using the wheels, but I think he switched since he could not get the wheels to bear on more than every other track plate, and the chains get one or two on every plate.

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 02, 2017, 08:46:06 PM
Continuing on the roller chain process with todays entry in Boring Pictures Of Parts, I got the pins for the chains all cut to length after doing some more experiments with lengths:
(https://s5.postimg.org/hnrb4ppmv/IMG_9062.jpg)
I now have enough of the rollers, pins, and side plates for all four of the roller chains, time to start drilling the side plates and assembling the chains.

Then, can start again for the drive chains, which are simaler, slightly different dimensions and with a smaller center roller.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: sco on January 02, 2017, 08:50:49 PM
Chris,

Been following your thread quietly for a while - takes a special kind of person that can do both quality and quantity  :praise2: for your efforts on both counts!

Simon.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on January 02, 2017, 08:54:39 PM
Very nice Chris.  I really love seeing the jigs and fixtures you make to help with your mass production.  You'll have these chains done soon!

Will the drive chains be the same? Or will the rollers be smaller for those?
Kim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 02, 2017, 09:01:51 PM
Very nice Chris.  I really love seeing the jigs and fixtures you make to help with your mass production.  You'll have these chains done soon!

Will the drive chains be the same? Or will the rollers be smaller for those?
Kim

The drive chains will have a roller that is a little narrower and also a smaller diameter, and the side plates will be 3/16" wide rather than 1/8" wide, to leave a little more meat around the pin holes to take the drive stresses. The shape of the side plates will be the same Z, so the chains look very simaler. Fortunately there are only two of those chains, even though they are a little longer each.

The drive chains will go around a large sprocket at the rear, and a smaller sprocket that sits on the end of the output shaft from the differential assembly.  If you go back to the first post in this thread there are pictures of the differential and the drive chains as well as the real roller chains for comparison.

In between drilling/assembling chains, I am going to start on the 3D modelling for those parts this week...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on January 02, 2017, 09:12:38 PM
Even starting the New Year with a bang! Damn Dog you don't come up for air do you? Some amazing fixture work and craftsmanship Dog.


 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 03, 2017, 02:20:20 AM
Even starting the New Year with a bang! Damn Dog you don't come up for air do you? Some amazing fixture work and craftsmanship Dog.


 :drinking-41:
Don

Thanks Don! Actually did take a bunch of time off during the holidays, lots of other fun stuff going on.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 03, 2017, 02:27:49 AM
With the roller chain work going on (and on) for the foreseeable future, I have been alternating time with modelling up the next set of parts in 3D (as well as the usual assortment of other hobbies and projects). I started with the drive chain parts, which are derived from the roller chains, with larger side plates, smaller rollers, and a 10% longer pitch:
(https://s5.postimg.org/t816tv4zr/Drive_Chain_Assembly_v8.jpg)
From there, did some more research into the formulas used to derive sprockets, and drew up the front drive sprocket that goes on the output shaft from the differential
(https://s5.postimg.org/tgyb0f0uf/Drive_Sprockets_v7_Rear.jpg)
and the rear sprocket, that goes on the rear shaft of the track drive axle (still need to add the spokes to the design, fortunately as that is done, the application carries the changes forward into the other assemblies that this one is in)
(https://s5.postimg.org/tgyb0f0uf/Drive_Sprockets_v7_Rear.jpg)
and then put the three parts together (with lots of copies of the chain components) into the full drive chain
(https://s5.postimg.org/t816tv4zr/Drive_Chain_Assembly_v8.jpg)
and also pasted that assembly into the full hauler design (as it is so far)
(https://s5.postimg.org/limsxebif/Complete_Hauler_v54.jpg)
Looking quite busy in that picture - the Fusion 360 app I am using got a bit slow when moving those components into place!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 03, 2017, 03:13:09 AM
Chris--I can fully appreciate how much work there is in 3D modeling all of those connected chain links. I just found out about 2 months ago that my Solidworks 3D software now has the capability to pattern chain-links around a sketched line. Of course, you have to do the math and have the segments of sketched line all add up to a length divisible by the chain pitch. It is a nifty piece of software, but not something I would probably use on normal "for pay" jobs. I love the work you are doing, and check every day to see your progress.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 03, 2017, 03:34:59 AM
Chris--I can fully appreciate how much work there is in 3D modeling all of those connected chain links. I just found out about 2 months ago that my Solidworks 3D software now has the capability to pattern chain-links around a sketched line. Of course, you have to do the math and have the segments of sketched line all add up to a length divisible by the chain pitch. It is a nifty piece of software, but not something I would probably use on normal "for pay" jobs. I love the work you are doing, and check every day to see your progress.---Brian
Thanks Brian!

The full chain was pretty easy to copy and paste up once the base link was done, kept copying all that were there and pasting them in a multiple of the pitch down the line till the straight line was done, copied all that for second side, then just had to manually position the curved ones. I bet there is a path/paste option or plugin, just don't know how yet since I am still learning the package. This way only took about 5 minutes, given its not set up for animation at all. That would be more complicated for sure.

The feature I really appreciate is the timeline, can edit an earlier step with different parameters and it automatically updates all the later operations and dependant drawings. Very cool.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: /// on January 03, 2017, 04:51:18 AM
.... can edit an earlier step with different parameters and it automatically updates all the later operations and dependant drawings. Very cool.

The video/audio editing world calls this NLE, or non-linear editing.
I wouldn't touch a 3D package that did't have this, I'm not aware of any that don't.

Really ejoying following your build, great stuff (and educational!)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 03, 2017, 05:03:07 AM
.... can edit an earlier step with different parameters and it automatically updates all the later operations and dependant drawings. Very cool.

The video/audio editing world calls this NLE, or non-linear editing.
I wouldn't touch a 3D package that did't have this, I'm not aware of any that don't.

Really ejoying following your build, great stuff (and educational!)
Thanks!

It would be great if the lathe had that feature, change one cut in the past and all the rest of the part grows! Gotta keep debugging my time machine....  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on January 03, 2017, 05:16:36 AM
Good explanation on your roller chains. I remember having one of those "ah-ha" moments when I was looking at some of your earlier pictures, showing these chains, and realized how they were being used. OK.........I'm a little slow...........but I do get the idea eventually!  :shrug:

I've moved some heavy stuff with pipe rollers on the floor using the same principle. I was amazed at how little effort it took once set up. Stone for the pyramids were probably moved the same way.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 03, 2017, 06:19:51 AM
Thanks Jim, it was pleasantly surprising to me how well it rolled the first time I slid a short section of the roller chain (all that is made so far) under the frame for the track to ride on. Those guys were very clever. It still amazes me how heavy machines like this  locos, and traction engines were.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 03, 2017, 07:29:05 PM
I did some more work on the chains this morning before having to head off to other things, with the drilling jig it is going fairly quickly, looks like I can drill, debur with a file, assemble, and rivet about a dozen or more links per hour. Not quick, but not that bad. Here is the first section:
(https://s5.postimg.org/u2rva9laf/IMG_9065.jpg)
and how they sit under the track frame and come around the end
(https://s5.postimg.org/oq30w4xdz/IMG_9064.jpg)
and going back across the top
(https://s5.postimg.org/v2i65z0g7/IMG_9063.jpg)
The first couple links I did the other day needed some rework since they were binding a bit, the ones done with the longer pins are flexing just fine. I think I will need to grind the lower edge of the track frame trim at the rear down a little so it clears the chain rails better, the rest is looking good.
At this pace (about 2-1/2 hours per chain), I'll probably have the roller chains done this week, and get started on cutting parts for the drive chains.

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 04, 2017, 02:45:59 AM
Every time you add more pieces Chris, it just looks more and more amazing. Awesome!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 04, 2017, 04:40:34 AM
Every time you add more pieces Chris, it just looks more and more amazing. Awesome!!

Bill
Thanks Bill, I got the chain making process down pat now, just a matter of turning the crank, as it were. The first 4 links are going to get repinned now that the dimensions are worked out, the rest are moving nicely. Probably have one full chain set every two or three days now.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 04, 2017, 10:53:18 PM
One roller chain down, 3 to go!   :whoohoo:

(https://s5.postimg.org/urehyfo5j/IMG_9067.jpg)
It worked out to be 35 links per chain to be a good fit on the track frame. I was a little worried that I'd need to put in one or two slightly longer or shorter links to get a reasonable fit since there is no adjustment for length on that chain like there is on the others, but lucked out.

And as I suspected, I need to grind off the a little on the lower edge of the trim flange at the front edge (left side in the picture) of the track plates to let the chain go by unobstructed.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on January 04, 2017, 09:05:04 PM
That came out great Chris.  :ThumbsUp:

I couldn't remember what supports the top run of the chain, so went back to page 30 and saw that it can just sag down and run along on the top of the longitudinal frame (whatever you call it).

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: vcutajar on January 04, 2017, 09:11:51 PM
Chris, that roller chain came out really well.

Vince
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 04, 2017, 11:23:34 PM
That came out great Chris.  :ThumbsUp:

I couldn't remember what supports the top run of the chain, so went back to page 30 and saw that it can just sag down and run along on the top of the longitudinal frame (whatever you call it).

Jim
Yup - and the chain is held from sliding off horizontally both by the grooves in the inside of the track plates, by the back wall of the frame, and by the lip of the lower track frame. It just sags down against the top of the box beam (that is what I call it anyway).
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 04, 2017, 11:25:00 PM
Chris, that roller chain came out really well.

Vince

Thanks Vince!  I would have liked to make the side rails from slightly thinner stock, but this was as close as I could find, it almost matches the scaled dimensions of the real one. Close enough for me!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: fumopuc on January 05, 2017, 01:31:48 AM
Hi Chris, a pleasure to watch. Some day this model will make the same drving noise like the real one. A monster jangling with the chains.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 06, 2017, 10:37:49 PM
Hi Chris, a pleasure to watch. Some day this model will make the same drving noise like the real one. A monster jangling with the chains.
All sorts of noises, steam hissing, chain jangling, tracks clanking, whistle blowing.... Should be fun!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 06, 2017, 10:40:39 PM
Some good progress today, the second track roller chain is done, two more to go (and then the two drive chains). The process is getting streamlined a bit, things like using the tabletop 1" belt sander to debur the drill holes on the side rails, etc is really saving time and wear/tear on the fingertips. Currently drilling, deburring, assembling, and riveting about a dozen full links in about a 45 minute session.
(https://s5.postimg.org/f7ujnzdvr/IMG_9068.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on January 06, 2017, 11:00:39 PM
Geeeez no master link...... :lolb:   Some nice work as usual Chris.... :ThumbsUp:

Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on January 07, 2017, 12:00:10 AM
 :popcorn: :popcorn:

Hi Chris,
 Still following, great progress, the chain sure looks the part (s)

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 07, 2017, 12:07:51 AM
Geeeez no master link...... :lolb:   Some nice work as usual Chris.... :ThumbsUp:

Don

To paraphrase (badly) the Brit game show, "I AM the weakest link, Hello!".

Um, lets see, err, the cotter pin is on the underside in the photo. Yeah, thats it!

Actually, on the real one, they used two different setups over time, one all riveted, the other with cotter pins on every link. With the side roller chains, there was nothing to obstruct removing them out the sides, so they could be taken out without a master link. For the drive chains, there had to be a master link to remove/replace since it went around other axles.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: GailinNM on January 06, 2017, 10:17:59 PM
The chains are great Chris.  And the best part is that   you are doing them and not me.
Gail in NM
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 07, 2017, 02:13:40 AM
The chains are great Chris.  And the best part is that   you are doing them and not me.
Gail in NM

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 07, 2017, 02:21:27 AM
In between sessions working on the chains, I have been spending some time modelling up future parts in 3D to generate the plans from. 
 :atcomputer:

As I mentioned in an earlier post, the rear drive chain sprockets still needed spokes added:
(https://s5.postimg.org/t816tv4zr/Drive_Chain_Assembly_v8.jpg)

More recently, laid out the main frame parts
(https://s5.postimg.org/5qc945nuv/Main_Frame_v27.jpg)
and added them to the complete hauler design
(https://s5.postimg.org/limsxebif/Complete_Hauler_v54.jpg)
The placement of the frame parts is still up in the air, I need to make some more measurements on the photos of the real engine, and compare them to the partial measurements available on the drawings from the museum, and then finalize the locations of the angled cross braces and the drawbar frames at the rear. In addition to these crossbars, there are additional large ones that are part of the differential and engine mounts, plus the boiler has a large cast mount at the front, a bar to the middle, and the firebox mounts at the back. So, the frame design is a work in progress still.

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 08, 2017, 08:10:45 PM
Three track roller chains down, just one more to go! (and then two drive chains....)

(https://s5.postimg.org/pfs8rqj2f/IMG_9069.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on January 09, 2017, 02:24:20 AM
Man Chris, that is looking really good.  Lots of little detail in every one of those.

You know, they might make good bracelets too - you could sell them at the craft fair!  :Jester:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 09, 2017, 02:30:32 AM
Man Chris, that is looking really good.  Lots of little detail in every one of those.

You know, they might make good bracelets too - you could sell them at the craft fair!  :Jester:

Kim

Bracelets! Get Your Bracelets Here!  Only $5000 each!    :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on January 09, 2017, 02:32:19 AM
They'll be selling like hot cakes!  (or maybe like mint chocolate chip cookies!)
Kim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 09, 2017, 02:33:55 AM
Got some more done on the 3D version of the model, made up the front bracket that holds the smokebox end of the boiler to the frame.

(https://s5.postimg.org/eu8dfqcqv/Boiler_Front_Bracket_v6.jpg)
and got it positioned on the main frame, as well as correcting the size/position of the other components on the frame (the cross rails were not in correct place, and frame was too wide).
(https://s5.postimg.org/limsxebif/Complete_Hauler_v54.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on January 09, 2017, 12:55:04 AM
Nice looking part Chris.

Fabricated or machined form solid?


Dave
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 09, 2017, 01:31:23 AM
Nice looking part Chris.

Fabricated or machined form solid?


Dave
Probably fabricated, it would take a big chunk of metal (little bigger than 2"x3"x3/8"), but not sure. Might do the sides and middle out of square bar, and join the 3 pieces. That is still a ways away, so time to let the brain chew on it!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on January 09, 2017, 02:50:02 AM
More good progress, Chris!

I like those 3d drawings. Sure makes it easy to understand what it is you're doing. One of these days I'm going to have to buy that book "3D Drawing for Dummies" so I can see how this is done.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 09, 2017, 08:40:01 PM
More good progress, Chris!

I like those 3d drawings. Sure makes it easy to understand what it is you're doing. One of these days I'm going to have to buy that book "3D Drawing for Dummies" so I can see how this is done.

Jim

If you go to AutoDesk's website for Fusion 360, they have a whole series of great tutorial videos - that is how I picked it up.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 09, 2017, 08:42:55 PM
And the roller chains are DONE!
(https://s5.postimg.org/4peb3wjk7/IMG_9071.jpg)
Just need to do a little trimming on the flange on the end of the track plate where the chain wraps around, probably do that with a rotary tool, and I can install them.

Now that the roller chains are done, I can move on to something completely different, like the drive chains.... wait.... oh crap...

Sigh.

At least there are only two, and the links are longer so fewer than there might have been... But, given the practice I've had they will go fairly quick.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on January 10, 2017, 05:09:06 AM
More good progress, Chris!

I like those 3d drawings. Sure makes it easy to understand what it is you're doing. One of these days I'm going to have to buy that book "3D Drawing for Dummies" so I can see how this is done.

Jim

If you go to AutoDesk's website for Fusion 360, they have a whole series of great tutorial videos - that is how I picked it up.

Went over and looked at AutoDesk's website. Like you said..........lots of good tutorials there. That'll be fun to play around with at some point. Geez.............so many fun things to explore and so little time!  :wallbang: I still fail to understand how folks can get bored in retirement. Not this crowd, that's for sure!

The roller chains came out great. Looking forward to seeing them mounted.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 20, 2017, 01:58:50 AM
FYI - now that the forum is back, but back in time slightly, I will repost the progress since then later tonight from my backup copy in Word. None of the back and forth posts, but at least I have the progress posts...

 :atcomputer:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 20, 2017, 02:07:53 AM
 I did some fitting work on the roller chains, trimming back the end flange on the vertical track frame to let the chain go by cleanly, and got one major step forward:
Z3n2sAzhEwA As you can see in the video, it operates properly, the chain going around as the tracks move.
 
 But, one minor step backwards. On the real hauler, the chains are held in place by the flanges on the cylinders at each end plus the flange on the bottom of the lower track frame as well as the groove in the inside of the track plates. But, those flanges are only 1/2" or 3/4" in full scale, and at 1/12th that they get pretty shallow. When rolling the tracks back and forth, they work fine for a short time and then have a tendancy to climb past the flange and derail themselves.
 
 I think this is a place where departing from strict scale accuracy (scaliness?! no, thats not right!) is neccessary for this model, since I want to be able to run it outdoors for long runs. What I think I am going to do is cut off the cylinder guides at the ends of the roller chains, and make a set of small sprockets on ajustable plates to hold the chains and allow for adding some tension to them. The sprockets will hold the chains from the inside, just like a bicycle chain, so they can't wander to the side and jump the grooves. It won't look that different, the only part easily visible will be the tooth or two visible in the gap between the chains - that could be covered with a small flange possibly.
 
 Time for some quick 3D modelling of the sprockets, and a little disassembly of the tracks....
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 20, 2017, 02:09:48 AM
 I have modelled up the sprocket and bracket I talked about in the previous post:
 
(https://s5.postimg.org/kk7g2dtdz/Roller_Chain_Sprocket_v6.jpg)
The sprocket will spin on a shoulder bolt that also forms the outer guide on the left, which will keep it looking like the original cylinder. The bracket on the right has a recessed slot for socket head screws, allowing for some adjustment.
 
 
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 20, 2017, 02:12:35 AM
 Got a start on the sprockets for the roller chain end brackets. Started with a chunk of 3/4" 303 stainless bar, and drilled the axle hole on the lathe,
(https://s5.postimg.org/jpphu3ax3/IMG_9087.jpg)
 and then moved the chuck and bar over to the rotary table on the mill, set the mill depth for the thickness of the sprocket, and cut the valleys of the sprocket 60 degrees apart:
(https://s5.postimg.org/gwwaa2akn/IMG_9089.jpg)
 Then to make the sloped sides of the teeth, offset the mill .230 in, and the table by 15 degrees, and made another pass on each tooth:
(https://s5.postimg.org/o1e3j3htz/IMG_9090.jpg)
 and then .230 back the other way from zero and 15 degrees the other wayfor another pass:
(https://s5.postimg.org/sbsreomx3/IMG_9091.jpg)
 That completed the tooth shapes, so moved the chuck back onto the lathe, and tapered the ends of the teeth a bit on the one side so that they will self center on the links of the chain:
(https://s5.postimg.org/6qsa4tfk7/IMG_9092.jpg)
 and then parted off the sprocket, leaving it slightly thick to allow for a cleanup pass:
(https://s5.postimg.org/3xz2ksf7r/IMG_9094.jpg)
 and tapered the other side while holding it in the 3-jaw (handy that it is 6 teeth) :
(https://s5.postimg.org/ojducowsn/IMG_9095.jpg)
 Here is the finished sprocket
(https://s5.postimg.org/a2qky47bb/IMG_9097.jpg)
 and testing it in the chain - runs very smooth!
(https://s5.postimg.org/bgi7tf6kn/IMG_9096.jpg)
 So, that proves out the design for the sprocket, time to make 7 more of them!
 
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 20, 2017, 02:13:08 AM
The rest of the roller chain sprockets are made:
(https://s5.postimg.org/t55tqo9vr/IMG_9098.jpg)
 Next up will be the brackets and stepped bolt guides to hold them in place...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 20, 2017, 02:14:35 AM
Got the first batch of the sprocket end guide bolts made, 4 down 4 to go. Started with a length of 303 steel bar, and turned in the shape of the guide:
(https://s5.postimg.org/eah8ci0av/IMG_9099.jpg)
 and then parted it off and drilled/bored the hollow in the end to make it look more like the original cylindrical guides:
(https://s5.postimg.org/78jaqawp3/IMG_9100.jpg)
 Here is what it looks like with the sprocket in place,
(https://s5.postimg.org/m5rrrb9xj/IMG_9101.jpg)
 and the chain around that,
(https://s5.postimg.org/dc0va7myv/IMG_9102.jpg)
 and sitting in front of the track plate where it will be installed, once the brackets are made and the old cylinder guides cut off:
(https://s5.postimg.org/zch7qu5mv/IMG_9103.jpg)
 This should run much smoother, and not slip off like the first attempt. More parts tomorrow...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 20, 2017, 02:16:00 AM
 Some more done on the roller chain sprocket brackets this evening. Started with some 1/4" square 303 bar, and took one side down to make two .200 x .250 bars, each long enough for 4 brackets:
(https://s5.postimg.org/mpjtxak93/IMG_9104.jpg)
 and then drilled the 4-40 tap holes for the sprocket bolts, and the clearance holes for the adjustment slots:
(https://s5.postimg.org/3lqigy7ev/IMG_9105.jpg)
 followed with milling out the recess for the bolt heads so the clear the sprockets. There will not be enough room for hex heads and wrenches, so these will be socket head screws.
(https://s5.postimg.org/bfr42cf7r/IMG_9106.jpg)
 Here is the first set of brackets, ready to be cut apart and the ends cleaned up. You can also see here that I have added some short lengths of 4-40 screw threads to the base of the shoulder bolts. When I originally drew them up, I was thinking that I would turn in the section for the threads, and thread with a die, but realized that for such short sections of thread that need to go right up to the shoulder, that I was better off drilling and tapping both the bracket and the shoulder bolt and adding some threaded rod cut from a screw. The rod is held into the shoulder bolt with some red loctite. This way I can be sure to be able to draw up the bolt completely. The axle portion that the sprocket rides on is slightly longer than the thickness of the sprocket, so they can spin freely.
(https://s5.postimg.org/411s9ytc7/IMG_9107.jpg)
 Next up is to cut the brackets off the longer bar, and then cut the cylinder guide off the track frames so I can fit these new sprocket assemblies...
 
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 20, 2017, 02:17:46 AM
 Today I started the modifications to the track frames to take the new sprockets. Started by cutting apart the brackets from the longer bar,
(https://s5.postimg.org/vb9rw191j/IMG_9109.jpg)
 then milling off the old cylinder guides,
(https://s5.postimg.org/4rh6tw8hz/IMG_9110.jpg)
 and marking out for the mount holes for the new brackets
(https://s5.postimg.org/5xl6sowsn/IMG_9113.jpg)
 and getting the chains fitted/tensioned
(https://s5.postimg.org/kutntpa13/IMG_9114.jpg)
 
 Here is a test of the reassembled first track - all seems to be working, not derailing any more:
 Z3n2sAzhEwA
 So, on to modifying the second frame...
 

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 20, 2017, 02:18:41 AM
 Well, after an afternoon of fussy fiddling, fettling, and filing of a fecundity of fussy fileable parts, and generally farting around, I got the second track frame reassembled and working well with the new sprockets on the roller sprockets.
 
(https://s5.postimg.org/hw0zv6lmv/IMG_9118.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.org/qfkdsxtzb/IMG_9120.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.org/vfhu0vzlz/IMG_9122.jpg)
 Now, on to making the main frame – going to take a break from chain making and work on that for a little while…
 

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 20, 2017, 02:28:07 AM
All right, recovered the progress posts from my backup document, time to move forward on the build!

I have gotten the bars for the main frame cut to length, drilled, tapped, and ready for silver soldering them together. The frames are a shallow C cross section, could have milled out of a thicker bar, but getting a two foot length milled evenly would have been tricky, would have needed multiple steps on the mill since that is much longer than the available travel. Plus I need silver solder practice! The socket head screws you see in the photos are temporary for the soldering, and will be milled off flush. Fortunately the weather here is unusually mild this week, so I should be able to get outside for the torch work tomorrow.
Here I first drilled the holes in the wider bars to form the wider part of the C at the top/bottom, drilled every 2" along the length:
(https://s5.postimg.org/bjzmqkmpz/IMG_9124.jpg)
then drilled/tapped the first couple holes in the center bar to match,
(https://s5.postimg.org/rw9ogb11j/IMG_9125.jpg)
and then used the holes in the outer bars as drill guides to do the rest of the holes:
(https://s5.postimg.org/70ne524uf/IMG_9127.jpg)
And a couple of shots of the bars all bolted up, ready for soldering:
(https://s5.postimg.org/phhsvvksn/IMG_9131.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.org/60x39cpon/IMG_9132.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 20, 2017, 02:53:49 AM
I've also been doing some more work on the the 3D model, got more of the brackets and such on the main frame - going to need to know where they are so I can drill the holes for them after the soldering work - much easier to do them all at once rather than taking everything apart multiple times later as each bracket gets made.

(https://s5.postimg.org/5qc945nuv/Main_Frame_v27.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.org/limsxebif/Complete_Hauler_v54.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 21, 2017, 02:12:29 PM
Yesterday I got the frame rails outside to get silver soldered up, went fairly well, still need to practice that skill some more but it worked:
(https://s5.postimg.org/upuwu5qmf/IMG_9134.jpg)
and then got some updates done on the 3D version of the frame,
(https://s5.postimg.org/5qc945nuv/Main_Frame_v27.jpg)
and started in on making the crossmembers. First up are the brackets that go around the outside of the frame at the back, and hold the towing drawbar mechanism. These are made from flat steel bar, bent to shape. I used a small torch to heat up the bend area and bent them with pliers.
(https://s5.postimg.org/5l3wgqr5z/IMG_9135.jpg)
That got the length close to right, and did some fine tuning on the end of the vise with a hammer to draw the bend around to the right length between the bends.
Next was the shorter frame that goes on the inside, the sizes on these are not as critical, as long as they come out the same, so I scribed in the positions of the bends and did the ends first:
(https://s5.postimg.org/95zrzyvpj/IMG_9136.jpg)
and then the middle ones
(https://s5.postimg.org/7s854nwg7/IMG_9137.jpg)
Here are the completed rails, ready for drilling for fasteners.
(https://s5.postimg.org/9lfn6q70n/IMG_9138.jpg)
The center rails will be held to the longer rail with rivets, then the whole assembly will get bolted to the ends of the main frame rails. I need to make up a clamping jig for drilling the ends - I thought about drilling the ends before bending, but did not think I could predict the bends well enough to get the positions of the holes correct, so the rails will be clamped to a block in the vise for drilling - more on that next time...

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Johnmcc69 on January 21, 2017, 03:15:19 PM
As always, FANTASTIC WORK Chris!! This is coming along very nicely.

  :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: John
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 21, 2017, 03:54:05 PM
Wonderful fabrication Chris. And thanks also for reposting what was lost in the server transfer. The frames are looking great !!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 22, 2017, 03:41:01 PM
Before this mornings update on the build, a side trip: laid my hands on one of these metal die-cast models of a Bucyrus 95 ton rail-mounted excavator (like the ones used at Panama Canal).
(https://s5.postimg.org/6wpy1ckcn/IMG_9147.jpg)
Tons of detail in it, bunch of operating parts in the mechanism. It is 1:48 scale, not that big, but would serve as a great starting point for plans to model up a larger scale one someday, maybe....   :thinking:

(https://s5.postimg.org/e8ve6w2kn/IMG_9140.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/5rvvvyxvr/IMG_9145.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/l1vr35tdz/IMG_9146.jpg)


Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 22, 2017, 03:47:25 PM
This morning got some more done on the main frame. I made up a little hardwood block to hold the drawbar frames for drilling the holes in the end to mount them to the main rails:
(https://s5.postimg.org/5vppc83d3/IMG_9150.jpg)
and then clamped in the inner rails for drilling
(https://s5.postimg.org/tb7mhkn47/IMG_9152.jpg)
and riveting
(https://s5.postimg.org/urj4zpq13/IMG_9153.jpg)
and then drilled the holes in the middle for mounting the drawbar mechanism itself
(https://s5.postimg.org/4khy3r7rb/IMG_9155.jpg)
and then drilled/tapped the holes in the back ends of the main rails for the drawbar framework
(https://s5.postimg.org/4lrvx69l3/IMG_9156.jpg)
and also the holes at the front end for the bolster block that runs across the front end and holds the steering mechanism
(https://s5.postimg.org/k7e9e8ruv/IMG_9157.jpg)
The front bolster on the real thing is a wood timber, I think for the model I am going to make it out of metal for extra rigidity for the steering gear.
Here is the frame with the drawbar frames test fitted - they will have to come off again to drill the rest of the mounting holes along the main rails for all the other crossbars and mounting flanges....
(https://s5.postimg.org/3kwp55yx3/IMG_9158.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on January 22, 2017, 04:17:37 PM
More good work Chris. I'm impressed that you were able to bend the drawbar frames so accurately and get the correct spacing. Well done.

That model of the Bucyrus 95 ton rail-mounted excavator is a dandy! If you haven't already seen it, here's a video I found about it's use in Panama: 2S3w1h_Pd_8 Wha a project that was!

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 22, 2017, 07:23:55 PM
Thats a great video Jim!

That got me doing some more looking around, found this one with footage of old Lombard Haulers in action, very neat to see them at work:
eSq7x6edExI
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: paul gough on January 22, 2017, 09:16:19 PM
Just got back from my second sojourn up north, (Asia). I have been catching up on the posts of your build and have to say I'm astonished at what you are/have achieved. I think you are certainly a master of the miniature machine tool, and obviously know these tiny Sherlines intimately, it appears you can get almost anything you need out of them. I am pretty sure you would fill a large hole in the model engineering publication offerings by doing a 'How To Build a Lombard with Micro machines' or some such. The fact that you are making something out of the ordinary and using very small equipment might be a very attractive proposition to many potential model makers who like a book on the bench to follow and who don't have the resources for Cazeneuves, Hardinges and suchlike. Regards, Paul Gough.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 22, 2017, 09:22:10 PM
Just got back from my second sojourn up north, (Asia). I have been catching up on the posts of your build and have to say I'm astonished at what you are/have achieved. I think you are certainly a master of the miniature machine tool, and obviously know these tiny Sherlines intimately, it appears you can get almost anything you need out of them. I am pretty sure you would fill a large hole in the model engineering publication offerings by doing a 'How To Build a Lombard with Micro machines' or some such. The fact that you are making something out of the ordinary and using very small equipment might be a very attractive proposition to many potential model makers who like a book on the bench to follow and who don't have the resources for Cazeneuves, Hardinges and suchlike. Regards, Paul Gough.

Thanks for the kind words, Paul! The Sherlines do have their limits in turning large diameters and taking deep cuts, but with a bit of time even moderate sized parts can be nibbled away. A friend of mine who has a company that makes some machine parts could chuck up my whole lathe and turn it sideways - his lathe is about 12 feet long.... yikes!

As it happens, though, I already have such a book (or maybe magazine serial) in process - First couple chapters are written, rest are outlined and are being filled in as I go... Stay tuned!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 22, 2017, 11:54:10 PM
Got the front bolster made. I wound up making it out of brass, had a chunk closer to the right size than I did in steel, and it was easier to round over the top like the real one (which is a wood timber, they rounded it to keep water from collecting on top and rotting it).
After milling it to correct outside dimensions,
(https://s5.postimg.org/geuqyiccn/IMG_9159.jpg)
the top edges were notched to fit into the frames
(https://s5.postimg.org/i7xnmtxjb/IMG_9160.jpg)
and then drilled with clearance holes to match the bolt holes already in the frames.
(https://s5.postimg.org/m5kxc8kcn/IMG_9161.jpg)
....
and then,
....
 :wallbang: :facepalm:
realized that I had very carefully, very accurately, measured from the wrong edge for the positions of the holes! 
 :toilet_claw:
So, after turning some plugs from brass rod and soldering them into place with some Tix solder (very handy stuff, very strong, and wicks into the tightest joint wonderfully), I went back and redrilled them in the correct spots, which overlapped the first set of holes. Sigh.
Then, after a trip to the belt/disc sander to round over the top (done roughly, the originals I saw looked like they were taken down quickly with an adze or axe, and when I paint them I will rough the surface too)
(https://s5.postimg.org/ahqvhov7r/IMG_9162.jpg)
they were asssembled onto the frame rails for a test fit.
(https://s5.postimg.org/4jd27gc93/IMG_9165.jpg)
To level the frame up for the picture, the shop elves sent over their robot to do the heavy lifting...
(https://s5.postimg.org/ioiv99laf/IMG_9164.jpg)
Next up will be to make up the rest of the mounting flanges/plates, and the crossbars that make up the rest of the main frame...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 23, 2017, 12:10:44 AM
More nice progress Chris and that vintage video footage is wonderful!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: paul gough on January 23, 2017, 06:08:05 AM
Chris, Great to hear you have pre-empted my thoughts, hope you gain as much satisfaction as an author as a builder. Just a thought, if you are publishing in a US magazine, please consider the possibility of an English one also,(as well as), e.g. 'Engineering in Miniature' or 'Model Engineer' as they have a wide reach, magazines from the States seem only to be had by subscription, at least in this slice of the planet, whereas the English ones are in some newsagents or available through them, presume the same for New Zealand. 'Australian Model Engineering' is well known in the Antipodes. Best of luck with it and hope I can get hold of an analogue artefact when it comes off the press, or should I say 'ink squirter' of some sort? Regards, Paul Gough.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Nick_G on January 23, 2017, 12:12:30 PM
.
This is very impressive.  :ThumbsUp:  :)

Nick
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on January 23, 2017, 07:39:59 PM
 Damn fine work Chris, just love the fab work........ :praise2:

Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 23, 2017, 08:21:48 PM
More good work Chris. I'm impressed that you were able to bend the drawbar frames so accurately and get the correct spacing. Well done.

Jim
The technique that made it work was to do the initial bend on the second end with a slightly larger radius on the bend, measure the distance between the ends, and if too long, clamp in the vise on the middle portion right before the bend, and tap it in with a hammer. If too short, clamp it by the end and tap the middle in. The initial bend was easy to get within a 16th, so this worked out well.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 23, 2017, 10:22:35 PM
Moving along on the braces for the frame, first laid out and cut the angle braces up to the front bolster, and the cross braces just behind it:
(https://s5.postimg.org/5yntnns3r/IMG_9166.jpg)
and drilled the bolt holes into the frame for the front braces on the mill
(https://s5.postimg.org/zf3fq2yh3/IMG_9168.jpg)
In order to support the frame and keep it from shifting/twisting in the vise, I got out an adjustable support frame that I made when building the frame for my Shay a couple years ago. It is just a couple lengths of threaded rod, some bolts, and a couple wood bars - just the thing to keep long stock supported at any height:
(https://s5.postimg.org/flvxb4ah3/IMG_9170.jpg)
Likewise drilled for the back ends of the cross braces, using the braces themselves to locate the holes, with their front ends bolted in place.
(https://s5.postimg.org/kykrp8ydj/IMG_9171.jpg)
With both ends bolted in, drilled a 1/16" hole in the crossover for a rivet
(https://s5.postimg.org/jxkj04hdz/IMG_9172.jpg)
which was hammered in on a small anvil
(https://s5.postimg.org/8z99hxssn/IMG_9173.jpg)
Here is the main frame so far...
(https://s5.postimg.org/y6k5i6vwn/IMG_9175.jpg)
Next up is the rear cross braces, which attach to the inside faces of the frame rather than the bottom, so the ends were heated, twisted, and bent over:
(https://s5.postimg.org/hwtzfal8n/IMG_9176.jpg)
and are ready to have their mounting holes drilled...
(https://s5.postimg.org/obt0byryf/IMG_9177.jpg)
To drill those holes, I will need to take the frames apart to clamp them securely, so while they are apart I will also do the other mounting plates for the boiler and cab. Here I am starting on the plates for the cab, which go from near the back end of the frame rails up to the wood beams that support the cab floor.
(https://s5.postimg.org/u198w9y4n/IMG_9178.jpg)
I am drilling them in pairs, since the longer bars are easier to secure in the vise, they will be cut apart after drilling. When they are done, I will do likewise with the boiler support flanges which hold up the firebox. Those are wider, and have a different bolt pattern, will show that next time...


Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on January 23, 2017, 10:52:52 PM
More good work Chris. I'm impressed that you were able to bend the drawbar frames so accurately and get the correct spacing. Well done.

Jim
The technique that made it work was to do the initial bend on the second end with a slightly larger radius on the bend, measure the distance between the ends, and if too long, clamp in the vise on the middle portion right before the bend, and tap it in with a hammer. If too short, clamp it by the end and tap the middle in. The initial bend was easy to get within a 16th, so this worked out well.

Now that's pretty darn clever..............gonna file that one away.  :atcomputer:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 24, 2017, 12:01:48 AM
More good work Chris. I'm impressed that you were able to bend the drawbar frames so accurately and get the correct spacing. Well done.

Jim
The technique that made it work was to do the initial bend on the second end with a slightly larger radius on the bend, measure the distance between the ends, and if too long, clamp in the vise on the middle portion right before the bend, and tap it in with a hammer. If too short, clamp it by the end and tap the middle in. The initial bend was easy to get within a 16th, so this worked out well.

Now that's pretty darn clever..............gonna file that one away.  :atcomputer:

Jim

No no, not the file, the hammer!   :Jester:

This is one of those little things I picked up watching the blacksmiths at the museums as a kid. Someday gotta take the blacksmithing courses at the local welding place - already took the copper bowl raising course, fun afternoon and learned some good techniques that apply to the boiler work.
 
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 24, 2017, 12:04:55 AM
And got the boiler brackets drilled too...
(https://s5.postimg.org/xano2qm87/IMG_9179.jpg)
took them all up to the sander and rounded the corners on one end,
(https://s5.postimg.org/aalm45ds7/IMG_9180.jpg)
and sawed them apart and sanded the rest of the corners...
(https://s5.postimg.org/4axv0hszr/IMG_9181.jpg)
The boiler brackets are the wide ones, the cab brackets are the narrow ones. Just need to make the blanks for the engine beds, and I can start drilling/tapping the flocks of holes in the sides of the frames.

I am glad I took this side trip onto the frame before tackling the drive chains, its made a nice break from the chain assembly line!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 25, 2017, 03:32:26 PM
Yesterday I got the frame holes drilled for all the side brackets
(https://s5.postimg.org/vuuj3kcuf/IMG_9182.jpg)
and partly assembled the suspension to locate the holes for the angle braces
(https://s5.postimg.org/48rrivthj/IMG_9183.jpg)
So all the holes are drilled in the frames now, including the back angle braces,
(https://s5.postimg.org/3knidok5j/IMG_9184.jpg)
just need to tap the rest of them and bolt on the brackets.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 25, 2017, 08:52:28 PM
Just got the last of the mounting holes in the frames tapped (lot of the little guys), and bolted on the flanges to mount the boiler and cab. Just a screw or two in each for now, had to order more 2-56 hex head screws. The engine base rails and the boiler forward support will be added later, but the holes for them are in place so I should be good to degrease and get a coat of paint on the frame rails, as well as fit the springs into the suspension. Here are a few pics of it as is:
(https://s5.postimg.org/70fmn8hdz/IMG_9185.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.org/5zfdy40ef/IMG_9186.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.org/9kb9hc4xz/IMG_9187.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: samc88 on January 25, 2017, 09:30:57 PM
Been following this for a while and got to say its very impressive work! I struggle with the tracks in simple plastic model kits of tanks! Looking forward to the finished article  :)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 25, 2017, 10:04:24 PM
Been following this for a while and got to say its very impressive work! I struggle with the tracks in simple plastic model kits of tanks! Looking forward to the finished article  :)
Thanks! Glad to have you along for the ride!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 25, 2017, 10:49:06 PM
Here is the main frame with a coat of paint, going to let it cure up overnight before reassembling it to the tracks, which got some touchup after all the rework with the roller chains...
(https://s5.postimg.org/662qc258n/IMG_9189.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.org/3q0wy7n5z/IMG_9190.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.org/krtr0b213/IMG_9191.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on January 26, 2017, 02:59:28 AM
Holy cow, Chris! That last picture shows just how long this Lombard is going to be. Looks good!

One thing that has really stood out to me in the videos of the full size Lombard, is just how spindly the skies look in front. They look out of proportion and seem to washout on the turns. No wonder the steerer wanted a clear path to be able to jump!  :help:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 26, 2017, 03:23:15 AM
Holy cow, Chris! That last picture shows just how long this Lombard is going to be. Looks good!

One thing that has really stood out to me in the videos of the full size Lombard, is just how spindly the skies look in front. They look out of proportion and seem to washout on the turns. No wonder the steerer wanted a clear path to be able to jump!  :help:

Jim
When done it will be approx. 30 inches long, when the skids are on the front - with wheels mounted a little shorter (the wheels go in place of the skids on the same axle).
In some of the videos on snow, you can see how much understeer it has, the driver is having to crank the skids around quite a bit more to get it to turn sharper.

Tree.... um, Tree... Sam, its a TREE!!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 26, 2017, 11:46:54 AM
Still looking great Chris. A truly unique model and the detail is just amazing!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on January 26, 2017, 06:01:37 PM
Damn Dog, do you sleep? You just keep spitting out more and more parts.   :stickpoke: You know Santa could use a fellow like you in his work shop.  :lolb:
Just amazing work Chris.

Don  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 26, 2017, 08:57:56 PM
Damn Dog, do you sleep? You just keep spitting out more and more parts.   :stickpoke: You know Santa could use a fellow like you in his work shop.  :lolb:
Just amazing work Chris.

Don  :popcorn:

Yeah, well, actually, I used to work for Santa...

Till I hired away some of his elves to work in my own shop. Long story short, big fight, lots of Ho-Ho-ing, elf shoes flying all over, reindeer with a bloody nose (yes, it was Rudolph), very ugly scene....
 :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 26, 2017, 09:01:28 PM
Today I got the steering gear and front axle/wheels modeled up in 3D. They look a little odd with the small wheels, but the wheels were only used to transport the hauler in the off season, they were not used when hauling logs, and they need to have an axle height that matches the height of the snow skids. For the changeover, just the skids were taken off and replaced with the wheels, everything else stays in place. I still need to model the skids up.
(https://s5.postimg.org/iziemfp53/Steering_Gear_v16.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 26, 2017, 09:19:16 PM

[/quote]

Yeah, well, actually, I used to work for Santa...

Till I hired away some of his elves to work in my own shop. Long story short, big fight, lots of Ho-Ho-ing, elf shoes flying all over, reindeer with a bloody nose (yes, it was Rudolph), very ugly scene....
 :Lol:
[/quote]

Too funny, that made my day!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 26, 2017, 10:04:34 PM


Yeah, well, actually, I used to work for Santa...

Till I hired away some of his elves to work in my own shop. Long story short, big fight, lots of Ho-Ho-ing, elf shoes flying all over, reindeer with a bloody nose (yes, it was Rudolph), very ugly scene....
 :Lol:

Too funny, that made my day!!

Bill

Sometimes the inspriation just hits... sometimes in the back of the head, but it hits...!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 26, 2017, 10:07:47 PM
Just got the frame assembled onto the tracks, including the suspension springs. Once again, the flat black makes the pictures tough, had to play with lighting and do a little editing to get them to show...
(https://s5.postimg.org/f0glpvb47/IMG_9192.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/eoz5d3uo7/IMG_9193.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/hkc8jyyo7/IMG_9197.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on January 26, 2017, 11:13:58 PM
Straight spur gear steering.... that's purely the Armstrong system!! :ThumbsDown: :ThumbsDown:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 27, 2017, 01:18:15 AM
Straight spur gear steering.... that's purely the Armstrong system!! :ThumbsDown: :ThumbsDown:

Pete


As in needs strong arms? Sounds like you had a vehicle with it!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on January 27, 2017, 02:29:38 AM
We didn't have a vehicle with power steering until about 1964. And a lot of folks didn't, so "Armstrong Steering" was a well understood thing....

Pete

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on January 27, 2017, 02:31:52 AM
Chris-

I have been silently following along.  This is such a cool project and the build is going at such a blistering pace.  It's the Shay all over again.  Much respect.

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 27, 2017, 02:38:37 AM
We didn't have a vehicle with power steering until about 1964. And a lot of folks didn't, so "Armstrong Steering" was a well understood thing....

Pete
In 1964 my vehicle would have been a Tonka or Fisher Price, so a FingerStrong model!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 27, 2017, 02:39:25 AM
Chris-

I have been silently following along.  This is such a cool project and the build is going at such a blistering pace.  It's the Shay all over again.  Much respect.

-Bob
Thanks much Bob! Glad to have you along on the trip!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on January 27, 2017, 03:39:43 AM
We didn't have a vehicle with power steering until about 1964. And a lot of folks didn't, so "Armstrong Steering" was a well understood thing....

Pete

I remember my first car..........a 55 chev................ had a huge steering wheel. Wish I still had it..............the car............and the steering wheel!  :)

Oh yeah............the build is looking great Chris!  :Lol:

Jim

PS: Did you build that multi-drawered chest in the background of your pictures? I really like it.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 27, 2017, 01:09:43 PM
We didn't have a vehicle with power steering until about 1964. And a lot of folks didn't, so "Armstrong Steering" was a well understood thing....

Pete

I remember my first car..........a 55 chev................ had a huge steering wheel. Wish I still had it..............the car............and the steering wheel!  :)

Oh yeah............the build is looking great Chris!  :Lol:

Jim

PS: Did you build that multi-drawered chest in the background of your pictures? I really like it.
Yup, built that as a set of storage drawers at the bottom and a display wall unit on top a few years ago. It is made of Sepele, a great African wood simaler to mahogany in appearance, but denser and available in very large and wide boards, very stable with little tendency to warp.
For you die-hard gear heads, that is a material known as 'wood', a naturally occurring type of metal from 'trees'.   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 27, 2017, 03:21:01 PM
This morning I got the rest of the steering gear components modeled up in 3D, the drawbar bracket/hinge, and the skids...
(https://s5.postimg.org/iziemfp53/Steering_Gear_v16.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 27, 2017, 03:53:35 PM
Jeez, Chris--You're a man of many talents. That is some nice 3D cad work, as well as the outstanding build.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 27, 2017, 04:31:52 PM
Jeez, Chris--You're a man of many talents. That is some nice 3D cad work, as well as the outstanding build.---Brian

Thanks Brian! All the sculpting work helps visualize parts, plus some past work (long time ago) in Lightwave doing 3d animation work has helped too. I've been doing a lot of analysis of photos from the logging museum to get part shapes/size to fill in the gaps on what they published measurement of. I am really liking the Fusion360 3D package, has a lot of power but it lets me focus on the features I need for this project (and the limited subset of it that I know so far).
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 27, 2017, 08:37:16 PM
And this afternoon I got back to the drive chains, after the nice break working on the main frame. The brain is as recharged as it gets, so back into chain production mode. These chains are the same style as the track roller chains, but the links are longer and wider, and the center rollers are narrower - they are a normally driven chain from the sprockets on the output shafts of the differential to the drive sprockets on the tracks.

First up was to drill and part off a big pile of the center rollers, that went pretty quick: drill about 1/2" in, part off 3 rollers, repeat.
(https://s5.postimg.org/il8ceq77r/IMG_9200.jpg)
Then adjusted the stop fence on the little chop saw to the new length, and bent/cut a small set of links
(https://s5.postimg.org/4dinq2uiv/IMG_9199.jpg)
to test the larger drill jig with:
(https://s5.postimg.org/bs7ziggef/IMG_9198.jpg)
All is looking good, sizes match the plans, so its back into producing mass quantities of link bars. I will need two chains, each about 14" in circumference. After the links are made, I'll start cutting the cross pins and rivetting everything together.
If you are just tuning in, if you look back a couple weeks on the posts you will see the bending, drilling, and rivetting jigs that I made for the track chains - these are using those same setups.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on January 27, 2017, 11:04:54 PM
Uh..............Chris...............is there any parts on this project that you get to make just one of?  :lolb:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 27, 2017, 11:34:39 PM
Uh..............Chris...............is there any parts on this project that you get to make just one of?  :lolb:

Jim


Ummmm... So far only one axle rod and one front bolster. I think that's it so far!


Total parts count so far is over 1400 pieces.


Just got done bending and cutting 45 pairs of drive chain links. That's about half of them. Sounds like a lot, but that took about half an hour.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 28, 2017, 03:58:07 PM
 :o

Guess who.

Hiya Chris. Sorry I haven't been around to give a  :stickpoke:.

Fantastic build log and model. Had a quick scan. Love the ship too!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 28, 2017, 07:23:47 PM
:o

Guess who.

Hiya Chris. Sorry I haven't been around to give a  :stickpoke: .

Fantastic build log and model. Had a quick scan. Love the ship too!

He's Back!! Hide the cookies!

Glad to have you back around again!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 28, 2017, 11:27:57 PM
Glad to have you back around again!   :cheers:

Hee hee hee. Well we'll see.  ;D

I am the thorn.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 28, 2017, 11:38:37 PM
Glad to have you back around again!   :cheers:

Hee hee hee. Well we'll see.  ;D

I am the thorn.


Paw hurt. You pull thorn! Sniff!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 29, 2017, 05:11:31 PM
The package with another batch of the 2-56 screws arrived (had run out of the short ones), so I got the rest of the screws installed in the boiler and cab brackets on the main frame:
(https://s5.postimg.org/jueljbsp3/IMG_9201.jpg)
Continuing work on the drive chains, I got the rest of the side links bent and cut:
(https://s5.postimg.org/ky3b912pz/IMG_9202.jpg)
and started drilling the holes for the cross pins, using a simaler drilling jig as on the track chains, that positions 3 links at a time. After one 45 minute session, got to this point:
(https://s5.postimg.org/9a99ehdl3/IMG_9203.jpg)
Looks like four or five more sessions and they will all be drilled, ready to make the cross pins...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 29, 2017, 10:03:41 PM
And a quick double-check that all the sizes are good, and an inspiration to myself to get them done, assembled the first length of the drive chain...
(https://s5.postimg.org/b75zj2493/IMG_9206.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 30, 2017, 12:41:16 AM
Still following along Chris. Things are looking great!!  :popcorn:

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 30, 2017, 12:53:42 AM
Still following along Chris. Things are looking great!!  :popcorn:

Because of Chris? Or his elves? One begins to wonder who's doing the work.  :thinking:
Mint chocolate chip cookies are a powerful bribe.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 30, 2017, 01:03:28 AM
Still following along Chris. Things are looking great!!  :popcorn:

Because of Chris? Or his elves? One begins to wonder who's doing the work.  :thinking:
Mint chocolate chip cookies are a powerful bribe.
They sure are! NASA put a trail of them into the capsule to get the astronauts in...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 30, 2017, 01:05:40 AM
Still following along Chris. Things are looking great!!  :popcorn:

Bill
Thanks Bill! Once the repetative work on the chains is done, I can start on the sprockets and gears, good thing no repetitive work there... Hey... Wait...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 30, 2017, 01:09:51 AM
Still following along Chris. Things are looking great!!  :popcorn:

Bill
Thanks Bill! Once the repetative work on the chains is done, I can start on the sprockets and gears, good thing no repetitive work there... Hey... Wait...

Yeah. You keep saying 'I' but you mean 'they'.  ;D
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 30, 2017, 01:39:29 AM
Still following along Chris. Things are looking great!!  :popcorn:

Bill
Thanks Bill! Once the repetative work on the chains is done, I can start on the sprockets and gears, good thing no repetitive work there... Hey... Wait...

Yeah. You keep saying 'I' but you mean 'they'.  ;D
'They' have taken me over, we are us now!

And 'We' just made 'me' get out another handful of mint chocolate chip cookies.... yum!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 30, 2017, 04:21:43 PM
Progressing forward on the drive chains, got the first half of one done...
(https://s5.postimg.org/z62n8jb47/IMG_9207.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on January 30, 2017, 05:01:51 PM
Hi Chris,
 Think the elves need to go on a diet! Too many cookies & progress slows!

Keep them lean & mean!  :Lol:

Looking Good!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 30, 2017, 06:40:21 PM
Hi Chris,
 Think the elves need to go on a diet! Too many cookies & progress slows!

Keep them lean & mean!  :Lol:

Looking Good!

Cheers Kerrin
Sure. YOU deal with a hungry pack of annoyed shop elves! That is how they turn back in to shop gnomes and start hiding your tools! 
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 30, 2017, 06:41:55 PM
And one drive chain done! I did not rivet in the final pin, in case I need to add a link or two once the sprockets are in place. It should be the right number now, but thats when Murphy comes a callin'...
(https://s5.postimg.org/jlv9i00zr/IMG_9208.jpg)
One more drive chain to go...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: GailinNM on January 30, 2017, 07:58:19 PM
Beautiful Chris.  If I tried to do that it would be Groundhog day 2018 before I got one done.
Gail in NM
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on January 31, 2017, 07:04:24 AM

[/quote]
Sure. YOU deal with a hungry pack of annoyed shop elves! That is how they turn back in to shop gnomes and start hiding your tools!
[/quote]

Hahahahhahahahahahahahahha!

Chain looks good!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 01, 2017, 04:16:05 PM
And both chains are done!   :whoohoo:
(https://s5.postimg.org/68nzl0npj/IMG_9210.jpg)
I took them up to the belt sander to ease the sharp corners on the links, looks a little better, and also cured a couple of sticky spots.

Now back to the lathe, started turning down the blank for the small end drive sprockets...
(https://s5.postimg.org/vsq9rg93b/IMG_9211.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 01, 2017, 10:14:24 PM
After shaping the hub side of the smaller sprockets and parting them off, turned them around in the chuck to face them to thickness and taper the second side to match the first, so that the chains will self center.
(https://s5.postimg.org/vmlrfuepz/IMG_9212.jpg)
and then over to the rotary table on the mill to plunge cut the bottom arc of each tooth,
(https://s5.postimg.org/pmy0c6txj/IMG_9213.jpg)
and then offset the table 20 degrees and .475" to cut the shoulders on one side,
(https://s5.postimg.org/kct1kw9on/IMG_9214.jpg)
and then the same angle/distance the other side of zero to cut the other side of the shoulders
(https://s5.postimg.org/5i4g6q03r/IMG_9215.jpg)
leaving the finished sprockets (just needed a little filing to remove the burs on some of the edges).
(https://s5.postimg.org/44ctbf0uf/IMG_9216.jpg)
Next up are the back sprockets, which are 20 teeth each. For those, I think I am going to start with some flat bar for the sprocket disc, and silver solder on a hub, rather than starting with a big chunk of 2-1/4" bar stock and turn most of it away. Either way will work, this way gets me more silver soldering practice.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 01, 2017, 10:30:03 PM
 :ThumbsUp:

When you said you tapered both sides...shallow? It's hard for me to see or know what you did.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 01, 2017, 10:40:43 PM
:ThumbsUp:

When you said you tapered both sides...shallow? It's hard for me to see or know what you did.
Yeah, does not show up that much. Starting a little below the base of the teeth, where the bottom of the chain side rails land, it tapers about 25 or 30 thou on each side to the tips of the teeth, to reduce the tendancy for the teeth to grab the side rails as they come around. I'm sure that there is some rule of thumb out there, but I dont know it, so I eyeballed these and came up with a taper that seems to work. I turned in the taper on the lathe when I made the blanks, before I cut the teeth, which made it easier to sight down the edges and see if they were balanced. The real test will be when the big sprockets are done, and I can spin everything round.

Commercially available chains have gotten SO standardized these days to just a few sizes for the smaller ones, that everyone just seems to use the same design, and there is little discussion about how they got there, unlike gear teeth which have lots of info out there.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on February 01, 2017, 11:14:26 PM
Lots of progress Chris! Regarding the shop elves ( even if they are bad hackers) as the Borg say..."Resistance is futile"  :lolb:

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on February 01, 2017, 11:28:33 PM
You sure the elves are eating cookies and aren't on crack  :lolb: :lolb:

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 02, 2017, 02:07:07 AM
You sure the elves are eating cookies and aren't on crack  :lolb: :lolb:

Cletus


No, thats the plumber's elves, with little butt cracks showing!   :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 02, 2017, 02:08:16 AM
Lots of progress Chris! Regarding the shop elves ( even if they are bad hackers) as the Borg say..."Resistance is futile"  :lolb:

Bill
Huh. That's not the formula for resistance that I learned in school....
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 02, 2017, 08:14:36 PM
I got a good start on the rear drive sprockets today - started by cutting out some 303 stainless plate stock and drilling/boring a center hole for the hub:
(https://s5.postimg.org/4mlqwhukn/IMG_9217.jpg)
The center hole in the plates are a little under the size of the outside of the hub, so I turned a shoulder on some 1/2" bar stock for the plates to sit against. Here is one of the plates with the hub ready to silver solder in place. To make sure the hub didn't shift during soldering, I staked the plate in a couple places with a center punch right next to the hub.
(https://s5.postimg.org/51x0pighz/IMG_9219.jpg)
After soldering, started turning down the plate to size.
(https://s5.postimg.org/7xa3wdkhz/IMG_9220.jpg)
and then turned in the recessed areas for the spokes and the teeth. Like the smaller sprockets, the tooth area is tapered out to the edge. Since I made the hub long enough to go through and come out the other side of the plate, I could turn it around and shape the other side as well.
(https://s5.postimg.org/4rpi661vr/IMG_9221.jpg)
The hub will be trimmed back on the one side as a final step later, after the teeth have been cut and tested with the chain. Next time, on to the rotary table on the mill to cut the teeth...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 02, 2017, 10:32:41 PM
Do you mean the hub goes through the plate?

At first I was thinking the hub was on one side and then I was wondering how you were holding onto the plate when the hub was on the other side.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 03, 2017, 01:05:43 AM
Do you mean the hub goes through the plate?

At first I was thinking the hub was on one side and then I was wondering how you were holding onto the plate when the hub was on the other side.
Yup, I made the narrow side of the hub long enough to protrude .25 out the other side so I can hold it from both sides in the lathe. I'll turn most of that off as the last operation, leaving the full hub on one side only. The axle is .250, the hole in the plate and the narrow end of the hub are .400.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on February 03, 2017, 11:25:20 AM
Moving right along Chris. You are giving that Sherline equipment a workout ... again!

Tom
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 03, 2017, 04:33:47 PM
Moving right along Chris. You are giving that Sherline equipment a workout ... again!

Tom

I keep excercising it, but its muscles aren't any bigger!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 03, 2017, 04:42:02 PM
This morning I got the large drive sprockets set up on the rotary table to cut the teeth. Started by drilling the bottom arcs with a small drill, then plunge cutting with an end mill. This left a nice cut just in the right place, where drilling with the same size twist drill would have been tricky due to the taper on that portion of the disc making it want to drift outwards a touch, even with spot drilling first.
(https://s5.postimg.org/hs5ugcdtz/IMG_9223.jpg)
Then offset the rotary table 10 degrees, and moved the table in .475", which worked out to give the teeth the proper slope, cutting first on one side
(https://s5.postimg.org/ytyoifsp3/IMG_9224.jpg)
then offsetting the angle and table the opposite direction to cut the other side,
(https://s5.postimg.org/jza349j47/IMG_9225.jpg)
before giving it a quick test with the chain before removing the sprocket from the chuck to debur it:
(https://s5.postimg.org/qe940xptz/IMG_9226.jpg)
One of the sprockets needed the shoulder below the teeth taken back another 10 thou, the rest looks good. Here is one sprocket/chain set together:
(https://s5.postimg.org/hls5d94p3/IMG_9228.jpg)
and test fit on the track axle - little hard to get a good photo of it with the frame in the way.
(https://s5.postimg.org/9f05loemf/IMG_9227.jpg)
So, with teeth cut on both sprocket sets, next time I'll start cutting the spokes in the large sprockets, and drill/tap for the grub screws to hold them to the axles.

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on February 03, 2017, 05:23:26 PM
Sweet Chris!!  Those look really nice!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 03, 2017, 10:52:33 PM
Seems like I saw all this before. Oh yeah. The smaller sprockets.  :Lol:

Well it was worth seeing again.  ;D
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 03, 2017, 11:19:00 PM
Seems like I saw all this before. Oh yeah. The smaller sprockets.  :Lol:

Well it was worth seeing again.  ;D


Yeah, deja vu all over again, just bigger. The next step will look familiar too, cutting spokes just like on the track sprockets.


It will get more exciting next week, when I start the steering gear assembly for the front of the frame.


Enough cutting for one day, time to go watch some Road Runner cartoons and relax!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 04, 2017, 03:47:30 AM
That is really interesting to see those sprockets being milled, Chris. I've read about it, but I think I'm going to have to mill one myself sometime in order to really understand the process.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 04, 2017, 01:41:34 PM
That is really interesting to see those sprockets being milled, Chris. I've read about it, but I think I'm going to have to mill one myself sometime in order to really understand the process.

Jim


So when do you start your Lombard model?   :stickpoke:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 04, 2017, 03:01:47 PM
That is really interesting to see those sprockets being milled, Chris. I've read about it, but I think I'm going to have to mill one myself sometime in order to really understand the process.

Jim


So when do you start your Lombard model?   :stickpoke:

Well, so far, I've noticed that in the time I build a single part............you make a whole drive chain!  :shrug: I may need to clone your elves...........or go CNC!  ;)

Here's one of your projects I'd like to build sometime: http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/showthread.php?t=22713 I love the action and sound it has.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on February 04, 2017, 05:57:07 PM
So very cool Chris!  Continuing to follow along with your elf-assisted build  ;) :popcorn:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 04, 2017, 08:11:33 PM
That is really interesting to see those sprockets being milled, Chris. I've read about it, but I think I'm going to have to mill one myself sometime in order to really understand the process.

Jim


So when do you start your Lombard model?   :stickpoke:

Well, so far, I've noticed that in the time I build a single part............you make a whole drive chain!  :shrug: I may need to clone your elves...........or go CNC!  ;)

Here's one of your projects I'd like to build sometime: http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/showthread.php?t=22713 (http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/showthread.php?t=22713) I love the action and sound it has.

Jim
Just imagine how much my elves would accomplish with cnc!


That twin beam engine was a lot of fun to build, I think it is the slowest runner I have done, runs so slow that the flywheel is not needed.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 04, 2017, 08:12:33 PM
So very cool Chris!  Continuing to follow along with your elf-assisted build  ;) :popcorn:
Kim


Don't compliment them too much, or their little hats won't fit anymore!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 04, 2017, 10:27:03 PM
On to cutting the spokes for the drive sprockets. Mounted the sprocket on the rotary table, and drilled 1/4" holes around the hub:
(https://s5.postimg.org/u9h3h8ydj/IMG_9229.jpg)
Then moved the table over, and rotated 30 degrees to get to the end of the spoke on one side, and drilled 1/8" holes there
(https://s5.postimg.org/nx1y7evbb/IMG_9230.jpg)
followed by corresponding holes on the other side of the spokes (if you squint real hard you can see where the spokes will be...)
(https://s5.postimg.org/vr2jst347/IMG_9231.jpg)
and then switched to a 1/8" end mill, and cut the arcs between the spokes using a series of shallow cuts while turning the rotary table
(https://s5.postimg.org/ertldjrwn/IMG_9232.jpg)
Then back to cut the first sides of the spoke by moving the table left/right
(https://s5.postimg.org/de1yi8snb/IMG_9233.jpg)
followed by cutting the opposite sides of the spokes
(https://s5.postimg.org/ncmx4q22v/IMG_9234.jpg)
Here is the first sprocket, ready for some cleanup filing on the edges of the openings:
(https://s5.postimg.org/bosva6cxz/IMG_9236.jpg)
One more sprocket to cut, then final stage will be to drill/tap the screw holes for holding them to the axle shaft....
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 05, 2017, 04:59:06 PM
Almost done on the drive sprockets - got the holes for the mount screws drilled/tapped in the hubs,
(https://s5.postimg.org/edwurox6v/IMG_9237.jpg)
then smoothed off the burs from milling the spokes with a rotary tool, and then it was time to trim back the hubs on the large sprockets. In order to allow gripping the sprockets in the lathe from either side, I had left the hub long where it came through the sprocket. As you can see, one side is a smaller diamter - that left the shoulder for the hub to res against while silver soldering it up.
(https://s5.postimg.org/dpo08qyh3/IMG_9238.jpg)
So after hacksawing off the bulk of the narrow side, the hub was faced back on the lathe, leaving just a slight boss sticking up.
(https://s5.postimg.org/hajvrz30n/IMG_9239.jpg)
And the finished parts, ready for paint:
(https://s5.postimg.org/lxpxtqqdj/IMG_9240.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on February 05, 2017, 05:36:25 PM
Well there has to be Elfs in that shop somewhere the way you been spitting out parts!  :lolb: Still looking good and damn good work Dog..... :praise2:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 05, 2017, 05:52:49 PM
Well there has to be Elfs in that shop somewhere the way you been spitting out parts!  :lolb: Still looking good and damn good work Dog..... :praise2:

Thanks Don!

I heard the shop elves talking about coming down to visit you this spring, and take some gator wrestling lessons. They are pretty small, so maybe crawfish wrestling would be better...!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 05, 2017, 09:43:06 PM
so maybe crawfish wrestling would be better...!

crawdads in my old neck of the woods. good fishing bait.
crayfish in some other places

crawfish in New York? What are they in Louisiana?

And what do they have to do with engines?  :thinking:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 05, 2017, 09:49:30 PM
so maybe crawfish wrestling would be better...!

crawdads in my old neck of the woods. good fishing bait.
crayfish in some other places

crawfish in New York? What are they in Louisiana?

And what do they have to do with engines?  :thinking:
Potato, patahto, patotoe, whatever!  The people next door when I grew up parked their car in the 'gararge'. Accents/names can be a funny thing. We had an exchange student from Mexico City back in high school, spoke perfect English. There was one teacher from West Virginia, with a slight (we thought, anyway) southern accent. The teacher and the exchange student had a very hard time understanding each other, the rest of us had to translate since we thought they both spoke English just fine!
Though I would guess our neighbors across the pond(s) would say we speak American well, but English terribly!!

Oh, and something about engines, um, lets see, I started milling down the engine bed blocks, pictures on that tomorrow...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on February 05, 2017, 11:02:21 PM
i.e., soda, pop, or Coke, just depends on the zip code   :Doh:. I remember at CF three years ago, Steamer didn't understand a thing I ordered for dinner, seemed to eat it fine though  :lolb:. Oh yeah, build, er, looking great  :cheers: (seriously)

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Johnmcc69 on February 06, 2017, 02:24:29 AM
Great work Chris. All these little details you add to it really make it "Pop". No wonder the shop elves are working so hard on this, it's not like you'll be able to drive it...
  :naughty:
 Hi Ho...Hi Ho...

 JOhN
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 06, 2017, 02:35:46 AM
Great work Chris. All these little details you add to it really make it "Pop". No wonder the shop elves are working so hard on this, it's not like you'll be able to drive it...
  :naughty:
 Hi Ho...Hi Ho...

 JOhN


That's a good point, the little .... um, ... machinists... will drive it away on me! Better build in a lock!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 06, 2017, 04:33:53 PM
A slight diversion on the way to starting on the steering gear - decided to finish up the engine beds, which I had rough cut down from a bigger bar a while back. Using  fly cutter, I smoothed off the cut edge and took it close to dimension, then flipped it over and took the rest off the other side to get rid of the bend in the bar (caused when cutting down a wider rolled bar, the internal stresses at the sides cause it to bow slightly when cut lengthwise).
(https://s5.postimg.org/3xuzdyj9j/IMG_9241.jpg)
The moved the table in so that it left a .125 lip, and took the bar down the rest of the way. The lip will wrap around the top of the main frame rails, and the recess sits against the side of the rails.
(https://s5.postimg.org/s2vovo3k7/IMG_9242.jpg)
After lots of cranking on a number of shallow passes, the recess was done, and the mounting bolt holes were drilled/tapped:
(https://s5.postimg.org/z7di4patj/IMG_9243.jpg)
Here is the first engine bed bolted in place
(https://s5.postimg.org/gt2z0pyiv/IMG_9244.jpg)
and both beds, with the drive chain/sprocket held about where they will go. The differential frame bolts to the bottom of the engine beds, and the crankshaft bearings and cylinders bolt to the top of the beds.
(https://s5.postimg.org/dnidaifwn/IMG_9247.jpg)
Here is the blank that will get milled into a shallow T-shape to form the cross bar that goes across just behind the cylinders. Also still need to make a set of brackets that project out from the sides to hold the crosshead rail.
(https://s5.postimg.org/9sez7xwqv/IMG_9249.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on February 06, 2017, 05:24:02 PM
The frame is really starting to take shape now too Chris. Loving it!!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 06, 2017, 07:42:59 PM
For the crossbar between the engine beds, I started with a piece of 3/8" square bar and took some off both sides to make a 1/4x3/8 bar (did not have that size already). Taking some off both sides evened out the bend that the bar took when milling the first side.
(https://s5.postimg.org/bbadcx3bb/IMG_9251.jpg)
then notched one side
(https://s5.postimg.org/wz3x13t3b/IMG_9252.jpg)
and then the other to form the T shape.
(https://s5.postimg.org/5d15gf9qf/IMG_9253.jpg)
and trimmed the bar to length, rounded over the tip of the vertical bar, and drilled mount holes at the ends.
(https://s5.postimg.org/3ns28cu13/IMG_9255.jpg)
Next up is to make the angle brackets that come off the side of the engine beds, to hold up the crosshead bar. These brackets will be inset and silver soldered onto the beds. First step was to mill in the recessed sides.
(https://s5.postimg.org/4rc6kbeo7/IMG_9260.jpg)
The portion at the bottom will become the top surface of the bracket. Here is a picture of the 3D model to show where I am going with this:
(https://s5.postimg.org/4rc6kbeo7/IMG_9260.jpg)




Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: cmitcham on February 06, 2017, 10:42:29 PM
chris, you often speak of removing some from one side, some from the other to even out the bend. the bend must not be there while you mill the second side, so how quick do you have to be? or are you holding the bend at bay with the vise?

thanks!
calvin.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 06, 2017, 11:23:34 PM
chris, you often speak of removing some from one side, some from the other to even out the bend. the bend must not be there while you mill the second side, so how quick do you have to be? or are you holding the bend at bay with the vise?

thanks!
calvin.
In the case of this bar, the bend was less than a millimeter, I've had some brass bar curve at least a 1/16th to 1/8" over 6 inches.

Speed does not come into it, the metal is flexing as you cut it. When they manufacture bar stock by rolling, it introduces stresses into the metal, and if you take a lengthwise cut it will flex somewhat. Over a short length, it is negligable, but over a 4 or 5 inch cut you can see it if you hold a straightedge up to it. When cutting lengthwise on a bar with a hacksaw or recip saw, with the bar held in the bench vise, you can watch the kerf at the top open up as you go farther into the metal.  Now, some alloys/products are stress relieved when manufactured, but most brass and some steels are not, and will show this bend.

For brass, it can be avoided by putting the bar stock in the oven at 500-F for an hour (after degreasing first!) and letting it cool. For steels, it all depends on the alloys, for most the process is more complicated.

The easiest way to deal with it for steel is to take part of the depth off one side, flip it over, take more off other side, and come back and finish on the first side to the desired thickness.

I am not a metalurgist, and dont know all the ins and outs of crystal/grain structure and the like, but have learned to deal with the effect. When turning on a lathe, you are taking the same amount off all sides, so it never shows up, but if you split a bar down the middle, or take some off one side, it can occur. I think it is mainly an effect on bars that were rolled to size, not on cast metal.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 06, 2017, 11:32:45 PM
Well, Photobucket appears to be in the process of hacking up a hairball and wont let me in to upload, so am falling back to PostImage for these. At least it seems to be serving up previously uploaded pictures.

Got more done on the little brackets for the side of the engine beds. After milling the sides to form the recessed areas, I turned them sideways and notched them to give room for a small screw to hold them in place while silver soldering. The screws will be milled off flush after soldering.
(https://s5.postimg.org/4rgry241z/IMG_9261.jpg)
Then, drilled for the screws,
(https://s5.postimg.org/y7we0hafb/IMG_9262.jpg)
The parts ready to be sawn apart:
(https://s5.postimg.org/w4lystamf/IMG_9263.jpg)
and after sawing,
(https://s5.postimg.org/7cmclktfr/IMG_9264.jpg)
At this point, each was held in the corner of the mill vise and both edges taken down in the one session, so that the two edges would be perpendicular to each other:
(https://s5.postimg.org/xyytajxmv/IMG_9265.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/ays5y7zt3/IMG_9266.jpg)
One of the brackets held up where it will go.
(https://s5.postimg.org/6eakx15hj/IMG_9267.jpg)
Next steps are to mill notches in the sides of the engine bed so the brackets will sit in with the vertical flange flush, and drill the holes to hold them for soldering...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on February 07, 2017, 01:00:58 AM
I think this thing is so cool Chris.  I hope that you can make it to Cabin Fever one year with it and the Shay.  I would just love to see them both as I'm sure others would too.

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 07, 2017, 01:18:58 AM
I think this thing is so cool Chris.  I hope that you can make it to Cabin Fever one year with it and the Shay.  I would just love to see them both as I'm sure others would too.

-Bob


Thanks Bob! I was there (no models with me though) the year before I finished the Shay, had a great time there plus at some of the railroad museums. I am hoping to make it back there again with the models.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 07, 2017, 11:21:03 AM
I think this thing is so cool Chris.  I hope that you can make it to Cabin Fever one year with it and the Shay.  I would just love to see them both as I'm sure others would too.
-Bob
Thanks Bob! I was there (no models with me though) the year before I finished the Shay, had a great time there plus at some of the railroad museums. I am hoping to make it back there again with the models.

That would be great. Leave the elves at home (they may skip out on you) and bring cookies. I would sure love to see your models and it'd be great to meet in person.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 07, 2017, 05:20:43 PM
I think this thing is so cool Chris.  I hope that you can make it to Cabin Fever one year with it and the Shay.  I would just love to see them both as I'm sure others would too.
-Bob
Thanks Bob! I was there (no models with me though) the year before I finished the Shay, had a great time there plus at some of the railroad museums. I am hoping to make it back there again with the models.
That would be great. Leave the elves at home (they may skip out on you) and bring cookies. I would sure love to see your models and it'd be great to meet in person.

I figured I'd drop them off at your house for that weekend, you know what they can be like if left all alone!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 07, 2017, 05:25:46 PM
This morning I got the slots milled for the side brackets on the engine beds. The slots are 1/4" wide, so used a 3/16" end mill, cut across and then smoothed up the edges and took them out to a nice slide fit.
(https://s5.postimg.org/6pwmnjbbb/IMG_9271.jpg)
Here are the first two brackets test fit in place
(https://s5.postimg.org/vxc41j3t3/IMG_9272.jpg)
Then used the holes in the brackets to mark out and spot for the bolt holes to hold them in place during silver soldering
(https://s5.postimg.org/wbdg14nwn/IMG_9273.jpg)
A couple shots of the part test fit on the main rails. All looks good, so next up will be to silver solder the brackets in place, and come back and mill off the screw heads. The top cross brace only gets bolted on. More holes will get drilled/tapped in the bed rails later on as the engine itself gets constructed.
(https://s5.postimg.org/4paogg4jr/IMG_9275.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/6v4zay807/IMG_9276.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 07, 2017, 05:26:44 PM
That was scary - got 403 errors trying to make that last post. Hope the forum gremlins are not back again!   :killcomputer:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Roger B on February 08, 2017, 09:30:08 AM
Just catching up with this build again. Magnificent work on the chains and frames  :praise2:  :praise2: I see you are already thinking about the next project  :)  :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 08, 2017, 01:14:12 PM
Just catching up with this build again. Magnificent work on the chains and frames  :praise2: :praise2: I see you are already thinking about the next project  :) :wine1:

Thanks Roger!

And always at least one project on the future drawing board! Next time the weather is a bit better I want to take a run over to the Marion steam shovel that I found out about near here - can't get too close to it, but it looks impressive in the pics I've seen posted about it.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 08, 2017, 09:58:04 PM
I was going to get the brackets silver soldered onto the engine beds today, but I decided to skip to the start of the steering gear assembly instead. To paraphrase (badly) the old song, It's my workshop and I'll procrastinate if I want to!

Anyway, the steering mechanism has two 14 tooth gears, one 45 tooth, and one toothed quadrant arm that if a full circle would be 96 tooth. For my model they are all cut with a set of module 0.7 gear cutters. I started with the two small ones, turned a 1/2" steel bar down to .441", slotted the bar where the two gears will be cut off so I knew how far in to cut the teeth, and set up the rotary table vertically on the mill. The cutter was centered on the workpiece by eye - the tool marks from facing the end made it easy to see the center. With the cutter set to just touch the side of the bar, I moved the table in another .0594, the depth of the teeth.
(https://s5.postimg.org/rttzbdibr/IMG_9277.jpg)
With the #2 cutter (14 to 16 teeth range) in the arbor, I started cutting the teeth. For the Sherline rotary table, the table moves 5 degrees per full revolution, and there are 50 tick marks on the wheel. So, for these gears, it works out to 5 full turns and 7.142 ticks per tooth. I like to pre-calculate all the moves, and follow a list of them rather than trying to figure it out on the fly - a little spreadsheet math worked it out to be a sequence of 5 full turns from the last tooth, then stopping at the ticks for 0, 7.1, 14.3, 21.4, 35.7, 42.9 and back around again for the rest of the teeth.
Here are the first few teeth cut,
(https://s5.postimg.org/8d99oun7r/IMG_9278.jpg)
and on around to finish off the rest
(https://s5.postimg.org/syo1gr4sn/IMG_9279.jpg)
Then moved the chuck back over to the lathe to drill the center hole (forgot to do that when setting up the blank) and part off the gears:
(https://s5.postimg.org/4xh5fapzb/IMG_9283.jpg)
Then it was time to make the larger 45 tooth gear. I turned a bar to the outside diameter of the gear, 1.295", drilled the center hole (remembered this time) and gave the end a little profiling since one surface will be visible - this gear sits horizontally above the frame rails.
(https://s5.postimg.org/ljypodix3/IMG_9282.jpg)
and then like with the smaller gears, went around cutting the teeth
(https://s5.postimg.org/f8y3lp72f/IMG_9285.jpg)
For this gear, the sequence was much simpler since it is an even 8 degrees per tooth, so the sequence was once around to 0, 30, 10, 40, 20 ticks
(https://s5.postimg.org/abkj0l53b/IMG_9286.jpg)
Once it was done, parted off on the lathe, and these three are done:
(https://s5.postimg.org/6gh4y0lxj/IMG_9287.jpg)
Next up will be to make the quadrant gear, which sits at the bottom of the gear train and turns the front axle assembly. Here is what it will all look like:
(https://s5.postimg.org/iziemfp53/Steering_Gear_v16.jpg)

The part that I have not decided how to make yet is the steering wheel, have to search out how others have done them and see what method seems best for this one. The spokes and rim are all round, which makes it tricky. Suggestions anyone?

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on February 08, 2017, 10:44:51 PM
Nice looking gears Chris! The front end stearing gear will add a lot to the model too!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 08, 2017, 10:58:03 PM
Suggestions anyone?

Yes.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 08, 2017, 11:04:37 PM
Suggestions anyone?

Yes.


 :facepalm2:


Thanks Zee.


Oh, you better check behind the couch, one of your shop elves got sick...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 08, 2017, 11:21:15 PM
Great work. Cutting gears is such a rewarding experience---But I still find myself holding my breath when I make that final rotation of the rotary table, and see that I'm cutting air, not metal.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 09, 2017, 12:44:37 AM
Suggestions anyone?
Yes.
:facepalm2:
Thanks Zee.
Oh, you better check behind the couch, one of your shop elves got sick...

Is okay. I'm used to puke-age.

@Brian...Nice tip. I don't know that I would've thought to go one more and see that it's accurate. Thanks. Could eye-ball the last one but this would be proof.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 09, 2017, 02:05:58 AM
Suggestions anyone?
Yes.
:facepalm2:
Thanks Zee.
Oh, you better check behind the couch, one of your shop elves got sick...

Is okay. I'm used to puke-age.

@Brian...Nice tip. I don't know that I would've thought to go one more and see that it's accurate. Thanks. Could eye-ball the last one but this would be proof.


But then Murphy's Law would kick in, mess up that last turn, and ruin the good first cut!


I do like using the 4 jaw chuck since it has the groove to lock it to the table, have had the 3 jaw turn a little during gear cutting since it doesn't have the groove around the base.

The real fun will be doing all the bevel gears for the differential, 2 large and 4 small ones.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 09, 2017, 03:03:39 AM

I do like using the 4 jaw chuck since it has the groove to lock it to the table, have had the 3 jaw turn a little during gear cutting since it doesn't have the groove around the base.

The real fun will be doing all the bevel gears for the differential, 2 large and 4 small ones.

Now there's a tip that I'll file away. That never occurred to me.   :Doh:

The gears look good. Thanks for documenting the process. That's a skill that's still out there for me to learn.

Jim

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 09, 2017, 08:32:16 PM
A bunch more done today on the steering gear, got started on the quadrant arm. It is the lever arm that has a 1/4 of a gear out at the end, and turns the front axle assembly. It will have a short axle section out the top, and have a fitting to hold the axle on the bottom. Rather than try and carve it out of a larger block, I am making it from several pieces. The first two are the vertical axle and the horizontal arm. The arm starts out as a 1.6" square piece of 3/16" thick bar stock, drilled and bored to take the axle.
(https://s5.postimg.org/6s7s29h53/IMG_9288.jpg)
The rough shape of the finished quadrant was drawn on the bar stock so you can see where this is going (and so I could make sure I was drilling in the right place!).  Then a length of 1/2" round bar was turned down at one end to fit the hole, and it was ready for silver soldering together.
(https://s5.postimg.org/qbcdbmfwn/IMG_9289.jpg)
While I had the torch set up outside (and it is COLD out there today), I also soldered up the angle brackets on the engine beds, and then milled off the heads of the screws used to hold them in place, as well as trueing up the top surface to the top of the engine beds.
(https://s5.postimg.org/4q7ao0j5z/IMG_9290.jpg)
Back on the quadrant, here it is also soldered up and ready for shaping.
(https://s5.postimg.org/6w1liimmf/IMG_9291.jpg)
The corner was sawn off so that it will clear the lathe bed.
(https://s5.postimg.org/9reopdqmf/IMG_9292.jpg)
With it chucked up in the 4-jaw on the lathe, one end of the axle was smoothed down, and one face of the arm trued up as well.
(https://s5.postimg.org/riqb3u613/IMG_9293.jpg)
It needed a slow speed and light cuts, being out of balance and an interrupted cut. Next the rim was taken down to finished diameter:
(https://s5.postimg.org/4ijnri87b/IMG_9294.jpg)
and the face shaped with a wider rim and narrower inside that.
(https://s5.postimg.org/59cdxaakn/IMG_9295.jpg)
Then, turned it around in the chuck, and recentered it using a dial indicator mounted to the cross slide
(https://s5.postimg.org/l8v1gu6mf/IMG_9296.jpg)
The axle was used to do the centering, and also did a quick check on the rim of the arm to make sure that was running true as well.
Then, trued off that face and shaped it like the first:
(https://s5.postimg.org/xc4yi572f/IMG_9297.jpg)
Then, got out the indicator again, rechucked it with the thicker side of the axle in the chuck so it would be as rigid as possible, and moved out so that there would be clearance from the rim to the chuck for the gear cutter.
(https://s5.postimg.org/oie211k3r/IMG_9298.jpg)
Then back over to the mill to cut the gear teeth.
This is one place where the stock Sherline does not have enough travel on the mill table - with the rotary table clamped to the table, there is not enough reach to do larger gears, so it is necessary to get out my trusty old table extension, a very high tech piece of thick plywood with rows of holes drilled in it! This lets me move the rotary table farther out to give room for the gear and cutter. The same setup has done gears for several clocks as well as the rim gear for the Corliss build.
(https://s5.postimg.org/3mrrpsnwn/IMG_9299.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/iwrmwzjev/IMG_9300.jpg)
Then, just like the smaller gears, its cuttin' time! With the number 7 cutter, for 55 to 134 tooth gears, mounted on the arbor, the cutter was centered on the quadrant axle, and set for the proper depth of cut (.0594"). This gear is a section of a 96 tooth gear, so it is just 3.75 degrees per tooth. On the Sherline table, that is 37.5 ticks on the handwheel, so it worked out to a sequence of cuts at handwheel settings of 0, 37.5, 25, 12.5, and back around again. Here it is with the first few teeth cut,
(https://s5.postimg.org/un5kedc7b/IMG_9301.jpg)
and all cut
(https://s5.postimg.org/xva1reyh3/IMG_9302.jpg)
and big relief time, check with the small spur gear and it meshes nicely!
(https://s5.postimg.org/f484h93wn/IMG_9303.jpg)
Next up will be to shape the sides of the quadrant, need to figure out a setup to cut reverse arcs into the sides, and round off the base around the axle. Then a tapered support arm goes across the arm on the bottom side..
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 09, 2017, 10:12:14 PM
Worked out the curves on the sides of the quadrant gear. By offsetting the chuck on the rotary table, there was enough still on the table to grab securely with the angle clamps. It took a little trial and error to get the alignment and distance figured out, but it did not take too long.
(https://s5.postimg.org/f5i2ao5qf/IMG_9304.jpg)
Then it was just a matter of making a series of shallow cuts while cranking the rotary table back and forth, moving the mill table out a bit each pass.
(https://s5.postimg.org/5yzrne0hz/IMG_9305.jpg)
Once the first side was done, I drew a line on the rotary table surface around the rim of the chuck, loosened up the clamps, and rotated the chuck 90 degrees, to get the second edge in position.
(https://s5.postimg.org/dt0d8s8av/IMG_9306.jpg)
and cut that arc as well.
(https://s5.postimg.org/6r710bu2v/IMG_9307.jpg)
Next time, I'll center the chuck on the table again, switch to a wider mill cutter so I can get close to the axle, and round the edge around the axle.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 10, 2017, 04:15:13 AM
Pretty darn impressive Chris. That's a lot of things to take into account to have it all work out. Well done.

Just to clarify my thinking. You mentioned that this gear (1/4 section) was based on a 96 tooth gear, requiring 3.75 degrees rotation for each tooth. OK, I'm assuming that would be for that particular radius of the 1/4 gear, so the tooth spacing came out right. If the quadrant had been a larger radius, would you have had to figure a larger tooth gear and thus had a smaller rotation of the RT for each tooth.......in order to have the tooth spacing work out correctly? Hope that makes sense.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on February 10, 2017, 07:57:32 AM
Nice Chris!

Cheers  Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Roger B on February 10, 2017, 10:31:12 AM
I do like that 4 jaw chuck with the clamping groove  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 10, 2017, 01:48:51 PM
Pretty darn impressive Chris. That's a lot of things to take into account to have it all work out. Well done.

Just to clarify my thinking. You mentioned that this gear (1/4 section) was based on a 96 tooth gear, requiring 3.75 degrees rotation for each tooth. OK, I'm assuming that would be for that particular radius of the 1/4 gear, so the tooth spacing came out right. If the quadrant had been a larger radius, would you have had to figure a larger tooth gear and thus had a smaller rotation of the RT for each tooth.......in order to have the tooth spacing work out correctly? Hope that makes sense.

Jim
If I am thinking of what you are thinking correctly about my thinking, then yes!
For a given gear cutter module (or DP) size, there is a specific tooth size and spacing. So, if you want a certain number of teeth you can calculate the diameter of the gear. Likewise, if you want a given diameter, you can calculate the number of teeth it would need. In my case, I counted the number of teeth in the gears on the real one from photos, ran the math, and got lucky that I have a cutter set that works. Otherwise I would have had to redo the number of teeth on all the gears, or buy another cutter set.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 10, 2017, 01:53:35 PM
I do like that 4 jaw chuck with the clamping groove  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
I just wish they had changed two things.
1, made the clamp so that it would fit square on the table without hitting the front mount screws on the vertical holder base.
2, made the t slots on the rotary table the same depth as the ones on the mill table. The rotab slots are farther from the surface, so the chuck to table adapter won't fit on the rotary table.
But, it still can be made to work!
Oh, and item 3, put a slot around the 3 jaw chuck too!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 10, 2017, 03:03:23 PM
Pretty darn impressive Chris. That's a lot of things to take into account to have it all work out. Well done.

Just to clarify my thinking. You mentioned that this gear (1/4 section) was based on a 96 tooth gear, requiring 3.75 degrees rotation for each tooth. OK, I'm assuming that would be for that particular radius of the 1/4 gear, so the tooth spacing came out right. If the quadrant had been a larger radius, would you have had to figure a larger tooth gear and thus had a smaller rotation of the RT for each tooth.......in order to have the tooth spacing work out correctly? Hope that makes sense.

Jim

If I am thinking of what you are thinking correctly about my thinking, then yes!
For a given gear cutter module (or DP) size, there is a specific tooth size and spacing. So, if you want a certain number of teeth you can calculate the diameter of the gear. Likewise, if you want a given diameter, you can calculate the number of teeth it would need. In my case, I counted the number of teeth in the gears on the real one from photos, ran the math, and got lucky that I have a cutter set that works. Otherwise I would have had to redo the number of teeth on all the gears, or buy another cutter set.

Thanks for the answer, Chris. Yes.......you were correctly thinking that I was thinking what you were thinking.  :shrug: I have a book on Gears and Gear cutting. I'm now thinking that if I were to read more than the first 6 pages, I would have an even better idea of what you're thinking.  :hammerbash:
 
Do you think that having the Tooling Plate for the RT would of made your set up any easier? http://sherline.com/product/3725-5-rotary-table-tooling-plate/

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 10, 2017, 03:54:50 PM

Do you think that having the Tooling Plate for the RT would of made your set up any easier? http://sherline.com/product/3725-5-rotary-table-tooling-plate/ (http://sherline.com/product/3725-5-rotary-table-tooling-plate/)

Jim

Possibly - it would have given more places to put the hold down clamps, including around the far side. Looks like a simple enough plate, could make one for a lot less than the $50 they want for it.
I wonder how tricky it is to put in place on the table - the four hold downs go in the slots on the table, you would have to put the bottom halves of the hold downs in the slots first then run the screws in from the top - doesnt look too easy to line up, unless the hold downs are at the very end of the slots?
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on February 10, 2017, 04:30:35 PM
If you stick a small magnet on the end of a rod you can reach in and position the tee nut.

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 10, 2017, 05:22:07 PM
If you stick a small magnet on the end of a rod you can reach in and position the tee nut.

Pete
Neat trick!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 10, 2017, 05:48:43 PM

Do you think that having the Tooling Plate for the RT would of made your set up any easier? http://sherline.com/product/3725-5-rotary-table-tooling-plate/ (http://sherline.com/product/3725-5-rotary-table-tooling-plate/)

Jim

Possibly - it would have given more places to put the hold down clamps, including around the far side. Looks like a simple enough plate, could make one for a lot less than the $50 they want for it.
I wonder how tricky it is to put in place on the table - the four hold downs go in the slots on the table, you would have to put the bottom halves of the hold downs in the slots first then run the screws in from the top - doesnt look too easy to line up, unless the hold downs are at the very end of the slots?

I have one and it's no problem to mount. You slide the T-nuts into the slots on the RT so they're even with the outer engraved ring. Then set the plate onto the RT (it has a boss that drops into the hole in the center of the RT). Spin it around so the mounting holes line up with the T-nuts and then screw down. It should be easy to make one.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: AOG on February 10, 2017, 06:17:41 PM
The tooling plate is great. It's all I use on mine. It also has the advantage of being lower profile than useing a chuck. That way you get more z axis room if you use it right.

Tony
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 10, 2017, 08:16:59 PM
Thanks guys! I'll look into setting one up.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 10, 2017, 08:31:15 PM
Bunch done this afternoon - started with rounding off the back corners on the quadrant arm
(https://s5.postimg.org/hbq5aedc7/IMG_9308.jpg)
and then drilling the holes for the support brace
(https://s5.postimg.org/kjumnfzlz/IMG_9309.jpg)
The brace itself started out as a length of square bar, milled in the end with a cutter the same size as the axle,
(https://s5.postimg.org/m0aqjbrwn/IMG_9310.jpg)
and then drilled the mount holes to match the ones in the quadrant. These are for locator pins during soldering.
(https://s5.postimg.org/d6ju284xz/IMG_9311.jpg)
Next the arm was tilted in the vise
(https://s5.postimg.org/7jnh4r2fb/IMG_9312.jpg)
and the top milled off
(https://s5.postimg.org/5gd1x32mf/IMG_9313.jpg)
leaving a nicely tapered arm ready to solder on
(https://s5.postimg.org/bikonkr2f/IMG_9314.jpg)
After soldering the arm in place, last steps were to turn down the axle ends and trim them to length.
(https://s5.postimg.org/l4e93vi87/IMG_9315.jpg)
The long end on top will fit into the drawbar bracket and act as the pivot, and the lower end will get the front axle hinge assembly.
(https://s5.postimg.org/3sdwifoqv/IMG_9318.jpg)
Next up, got the gear support brackets made, starting with drilling the holes for the gear shafts. Both plates were kept clamped together through these steps to keep the holes and recesses aligned properly.
(https://s5.postimg.org/wjaq8hukn/IMG_9319.jpg)
The through holes for bolting the plates to the vertical back plate were drilled next,
(https://s5.postimg.org/qjmz4u9s7/IMG_9320.jpg)
and the recess for the front milled in.
(https://s5.postimg.org/y0w6k1zbb/IMG_9321.jpg)
The back plate was then drilled/tapped for the mounting bolts
(https://s5.postimg.org/uvg67l62v/IMG_9322.jpg)
as well as the holes to bolt this plate to the front bolster on the frame
(https://s5.postimg.org/jx4wpehhj/IMG_9323.jpg)
Here are the parts so far test fit together. The top/bottom plates had their ends rounded over on the belt/disc sander - that shape is not critical, so it was quicker to sand them by eye than to set up the mill and a holder.
(https://s5.postimg.org/4cxiyv7d3/IMG_9325.jpg)
Next time I'll get started on the drawbar block, which holds the quadrant pin as well as providing a front tow hook.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on February 10, 2017, 09:09:04 PM
That's quite a nice little assembly there Chris, and a lot of work in it too!!  Much more than the casual observer would ever realize. It will look good mounted to the front of the frame.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on February 11, 2017, 01:43:07 AM
Damn Dog, them elves have been busy.  :lolb: bet you been feeding them plenty of cookies...Looks great Chris  :ThumbsUp:

 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: fumopuc on February 11, 2017, 06:54:48 PM
Hi Chris, I am still there and following quietly. Impressive progress.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 11, 2017, 09:11:00 PM
Thanks guys! Glad to have you all along for the ride!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 11, 2017, 09:31:52 PM
Looks good, Chris.  It looks like that clock building experience is coming in handy!  ;)

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 11, 2017, 09:37:10 PM
Continuing on with the front steering gear assembly, next up was the front drawbar block. I started with a chunk of steel from a larger bar, and milled it down to a 1"x3/4"x1/2" shape, always keeping two of the original outside edges on the back and bottom of the mill vise so no angles built up as I went.
(https://s5.postimg.org/nruz64dfr/IMG_9329.jpg)
then drilled/tapped a pair of holes in the back end to bolt it to the mounting plate
(https://s5.postimg.org/gd5ndqrk7/IMG_9330.jpg)
which was temporarily held on with a pair of bolts. I was going to silver solder it, later on decided to countersink the bolts and hold it together with high strength loctite.
(https://s5.postimg.org/ojxn5bhmv/IMG_9333.jpg)
Next step was to cut the slot for the drawbar - first chain drilled two holes to remove the bulk of the metal
(https://s5.postimg.org/c6ksyeryf/IMG_9334.jpg)
and cleaned it up with an end mill
(https://s5.postimg.org/c7uqrtts7/IMG_9335.jpg)
and then drilled the holes through from the top for the drawbar pin (small hole) and the quadrant arm pivot (large hole).
(https://s5.postimg.org/p0iurr5dz/IMG_9336.jpg)
then milled a step into the top surface, angled slightly down to the front end
(https://s5.postimg.org/6m8bnrt3b/IMG_9337.jpg)
and milled steps into the side in front of the pivot hole
(https://s5.postimg.org/4vpamabk7/IMG_9339.jpg)
Next up was the mounting plate, drilled holes for the bolts that will hold it to the block and to the front frame bolster
(https://s5.postimg.org/ph42e6t53/IMG_9340.jpg)
Marked out the holes in the bolster (removed from the rest of the frame), and drilled/tapped those
(https://s5.postimg.org/k6z3mw8w7/IMG_9341.jpg)
With the drawbar block and quadrant arm in place, I held up the steering gear assembly and marked the holes to hold it to the bolster, then drilled/tapped those as well.
(https://s5.postimg.org/y21zj3sp3/IMG_9342.jpg)
And a couple shots of it all together on the frame again:
(https://s5.postimg.org/wbiyhmb5z/IMG_9345.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/kaxigw3rb/IMG_9352.jpg)
I still need to turn the drawbar pin, which is a simple stepped rod, and then can start on the lower steering arm and front axle assembly...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 11, 2017, 09:38:08 PM
Looks good, Chris.  It looks like that clock building experience is coming in handy!  ;)

Jim
Oh yeah! Couple of gears, no sweat!  Bevel gears still take a while, only done a few of those.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 11, 2017, 09:59:01 PM
Glad to have you all along for the ride!

As bumpy as it is...it's a good ride.  :Lol:
And you;re able to stick to the road better than I do.  :lolb:

Where I'm going...I don't need...roads.

Hey...is that yet another boat in the background (12th pic I think).
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 11, 2017, 10:07:53 PM
Glad to have you all along for the ride!

As bumpy as it is...it's a good ride.  :Lol:
And you;re able to stick to the road better than I do.  :lolb:

Where I'm going...I don't need...roads.

Hey...is that yet another boat in the background (12th pic I think).
You need a sports car, they hug the road better!

That model in the background is the New Bedford whaleboat model, built that one in 2014. It is the type carried on the old sailing whaleships (back in the Moby Dick days).
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on February 11, 2017, 10:41:56 PM
More nice progress Chris. That front end is really taking shape now!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 11, 2017, 11:15:03 PM
More nice progress Chris. That front end is really taking shape now!!

Bill
I can't wait to get the front skids on and see how it looks. The folks at the museum kindly took some detailed pics of them, they are heavy wood with a plate metal covering, with an extra runner down the bottom.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 12, 2017, 03:34:21 AM
More great progress, Chris.

The whaleboat looks to be plank on frame?

So what kind of sports car does a person need?

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 12, 2017, 04:13:29 AM
More great progress, Chris.

The whaleboat looks to be plank on frame?

So what kind of sports car does a person need?

Jim
The whaleboat is plank on frame. They were an interesting design, partly lapstrake, partly a variant of carvel planking. The middle planks were butted like carvel planks, but since they were thin like lapstrake, they used a batten on the inside to strengthen them. The uppermost and lowest planks were normal lapstrake. This combination kept weight down but strength and repairability up.


And most any sports car will do. I am partial to 2 seater convertibles.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 12, 2017, 04:24:16 AM
More great progress, Chris.

The whaleboat looks to be plank on frame?

So what kind of sports car does a person need?

Jim
The whaleboat is plank on frame. They were an interesting design, partly lapstrake, partly a variant of carvel planking. The middle planks were butted like carvel planks, but since they were thin like lapstrake, they used a batten on the inside to strengthen them. The uppermost and lowest planks were normal lapstrake. This combination kept weight down but strength and repairability up.


And most any sports car will do. I am partial to 2 seater convertibles.

Went back and revisited the picture. I can see what you're saying now. Plus...... I guess they were built so they could stack them on deck. What an era!

Once I get out of my motorcycle phase (that's lasted for 51 years now), I can see a 2 seat sports car in my future. A red one!  :cartwheel:

Jim

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on February 12, 2017, 09:38:29 AM
Hi Jim,
 One like this? Sorry you would have to repaint it!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 12, 2017, 01:54:53 PM
Nice car! That would work!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 12, 2017, 01:57:43 PM
Hi Jim,
 One like this? Sorry you would have to repaint it!

Cheers Kerrin

Kerrin, That white TF would do just fine!  :ThumbsUp:

It's funny you posted that. I've lusted after one of those ever since I saw one back in the early sixties. I love those moulded in headlights.

Jim

PS: This would work as well: https://classiccars.com/listings/view/955395/1954-mg-tf-for-sale-in-beverly-hills-california-90210
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 12, 2017, 02:10:51 PM
Hi Jim,
 One like this? Sorry you would have to repaint it!

Cheers Kerrin

Kerrin, That white TF would do just fine!  :ThumbsUp:

It's funny you posted that. I've lusted after one of those ever since I saw one back in the early sixties. I love those moulded in headlights.

Jim

PS: This would work as well: https://classiccars.com/listings/view/955395/1954-mg-tf-for-sale-in-beverly-hills-california-90210 (https://classiccars.com/listings/view/955395/1954-mg-tf-for-sale-in-beverly-hills-california-90210)
Wow, Jim is buying me a car! What a guy! :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 12, 2017, 02:13:41 PM
Hi Jim,
 One like this? Sorry you would have to repaint it!

Cheers Kerrin

Kerrin, That white TF would do just fine!  :ThumbsUp:

It's funny you posted that. I've lusted after one of those ever since I saw one back in the early sixties. I love those moulded in headlights.

Jim

PS: This would work as well: https://classiccars.com/listings/view/955395/1954-mg-tf-for-sale-in-beverly-hills-california-90210 (https://classiccars.com/listings/view/955395/1954-mg-tf-for-sale-in-beverly-hills-california-90210)
Wow, Jim is buying me a car! What a guy! :lolb:

Sorry my friend...............you'd have to send me a lot more cookies....................a whole lot more!  :LickLips:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on February 12, 2017, 02:37:04 PM
Hi Jim,
 As much as I would to have a toy like this it belongs to a friend....not an original

"sweet MG-TF ‘replicar’ (on Triumph Herald underpinings with f’glass panels & Datsun 1500 engine & box "

As he changes vehicle's faster than anybody else I know I'll let you know when it comes up for sale.....My son that lives just out of Calgary has priced getting his project can from here to there & at $8000 so not to bad......

 :stickpoke:

Cheers Kerrin

PS Oh yeah Chris progress is looking good!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 12, 2017, 04:32:50 PM
Back to the lower steering gear bracket - the nearest bar stock I had to the right size was from the offcut from making the engine beds. One dimension was correct, just needed to mill down one side to get the other direction the proper size:
(https://s5.postimg.org/jw0hch2x3/IMG_9355.jpg)
and then, with the bar in the mill vise, notched out the opening in the bracket that will take the axle assembly. I left the part on the longer bar so I could hold it securely in the vise.
(https://s5.postimg.org/r0ialia6f/IMG_9356.jpg)
then ran the mill down the length of the bracket, leaving a 1/4" ridge in the center. This ridge will wrap down the ends later on.
(https://s5.postimg.org/d83vpvjev/IMG_9357.jpg)
Thats about all I could do with the part still on the longer bar, so I cut it off and cleaned up the cut end, then drilled through for the pivot that will go into the axle assembly:
(https://s5.postimg.org/kcloywqo7/IMG_9359.jpg)
then turned the part and drilled for the quadrant bottom rod:
(https://s5.postimg.org/rh3i7xxxj/IMG_9360.jpg)
then bored that hole out to size - I have much better luck boring the larger holes than direct drilling them, the resulting hole is much cleaner and more accurate:
(https://s5.postimg.org/4to91sidj/IMG_9361.jpg)
Last step on that hole was to mill a shallow slot for the support arm on the bottom of the quadrant:
(https://s5.postimg.org/zce1mr7k7/IMG_9363.jpg)
Here is the bracket test fit to the quadrant:
(https://s5.postimg.org/4jgqig3rb/IMG_9364.jpg)
For the next steps, rounding the bottoms of the bracket and milling in the recesses, I need to be able to hold the part in the 4-jaw. To give a solid grip and prevent the part from flexing, I took a bit of 1/2" bar stock, turned to be a snug fit, drilled a hole through the center, and bolted that in place:
(https://s5.postimg.org/4xi2i1nuv/IMG_9366.jpg)
With that centered in the 4 jaw and mounted to the rotary table, I rounded off the lower corners of the bracket,
(https://s5.postimg.org/616s7qxvr/IMG_9368.jpg)
and milled in the notches down the sides and around the hole, to make it look like the original casting:
(https://s5.postimg.org/vl92e6j9j/IMG_9371.jpg)
Then used some loctite to hold it to the quadrant arm, and test fit into place:
(https://s5.postimg.org/e98psqps7/IMG_9376.jpg)
After the loctite cures, I will cross drill and pin the bracket to the quadrant shaft.
Next up: the axle assembly!


Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on February 12, 2017, 05:36:45 PM
OH YES!
Look real good now!

 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 12, 2017, 08:42:16 PM
OH YES!
Look real good now!

 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Cheers Kerrin
Thanks!

But now I have a hunger for some popcorn....
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 12, 2017, 08:57:38 PM
Well, one good thing about a day with freezing rain, rain, then snow - makes you want to stay in a nice warm shop and build something!

I have a good start on the front axle frame. Since it needs a 1/8" radius groove down the bottom edge, and I dont have a ball end mill that size, I took another route to the same result: started with a slightly wider piece of bar stock, and drilled a 1/4" hole lengthwise through it near what will be the bottom edge.
(https://s5.postimg.org/nv2a91gxz/IMG_9378.jpg)
Then I marked out the shape of the frame on the side of it, using the top of the axle hole as a reference
(https://s5.postimg.org/cwr0quscn/IMG_9379.jpg)
First step to getting that shape, drill the holes for the pivot and for the ends of the tapered side openings (they were just there in the original to reduce the thickness of the cast frame, plus I think they look great)
(https://s5.postimg.org/xi5sir9xj/IMG_9381.jpg)
And then turned it upright and milled in the top surface, plus the lower flats where the nuts on the u-bolts will go. The u-bolts wrap around the axle bar and hold it to the frame.
(https://s5.postimg.org/obnhvh4p3/IMG_9382.jpg)
To mill the angled surfaces, I used the tops of the holes in the side to line up the frame in the vise - this surface will be parallel to the opening.
(https://s5.postimg.org/blj9idwqv/IMG_9384.jpg)
Then it was just a matter or making a series of shallow cuts till the flat connected the other features. Same cuts were made on the opposite end.
(https://s5.postimg.org/p3q5uo8w7/IMG_9386.jpg)
A quick check to make sure it clears the upper bracket:
(https://s5.postimg.org/6pfmqowlj/IMG_9387.jpg)
and started milling out the openings in the side. I started by drilling one more hole to remove the bulk of the material, then connected the bottoms of the holes
(https://s5.postimg.org/xbwoteq6f/IMG_9388.jpg)
To do the angled cut at the top, I used the flats to position the part, and a square bar set in the v-groove of the vise to hold it in position. At first that was just a 'what the heck, try it' move, but once clamped down it was remarkably secure, so I went ahead and made the cuts, which saved the time to position the vise at an angle.
(https://s5.postimg.org/jw9o3yhon/IMG_9389.jpg)
With all the upper works cut to shape, last milling operations were to cut away half of the axle hole
(https://s5.postimg.org/wc6dxpb0n/IMG_9391.jpg)
and cut the recesses down the side, leaving posts where the u-bolts will be
(https://s5.postimg.org/6unze3taf/IMG_9393.jpg)
Here are the parts so far, ready to drill the holes for the u-bolts, and also I still need to pin the bottom bracket onto the quadrant shaft.
(https://s5.postimg.org/bulfm1yx3/IMG_9395.jpg)
Very happy with how that whole assembly is coming together - a few more days and the skids should be on. I also will be making a set of wheels for running on non-snow surfaces. The skids will be put on for display times.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 13, 2017, 02:50:48 AM
Those skids might come in handy back in your country right now, Chris!

I bet that piece took a lot of thought in order to keep from machining yourself into a corner!  :shrug:

Jim

PS: Ate my last cookie today.  :LickLips:  :'(

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 13, 2017, 02:58:53 AM
Those skids might come in handy back in your country right now, Chris!

I bet that piece took a lot of thought in order to keep from machining yourself into a corner!  :shrug:

Jim

PS: Ate my last cookie today.  :LickLips: :'(
The bad snow so far has gone south and east of here, only about an inch on the ground here today, but they are predicting several more inches worth tonight and tomorrow. Nice thing about retirement, when the going gets tough, stay home!

It did take some planning on the order of milling, just like the bracket above it did the other day. Fortunately it is large enough to leave plenty to grab onto.

P.S. - send a man some cookies, he eats for a couple days. Send him the recipe and he can make his own!!   :Lol:   Check post 301 in this thread!   :stir:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 13, 2017, 03:20:37 AM

P.S. - send a man some cookies, he eats for a couple days. Send him the recipe and he can make his own!!   :Lol:   Check post 301 in this thread!   :stir:

So what happened to: "Send a man some cookies, he eats for a couple days. Get tired of him whining about being out of cookies and send him some more"!  :shrug:

OK..........I give............got the recipe printed out.  :LickLips:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 13, 2017, 03:35:44 AM
...
So what happened to: "Send a man some cookies, he eats for a couple days. Get tired of him whining about being out of cookies and send him some more"!  :shrug:
Sounds too much like some of the 'logic' from my working days!   :paranoia:

Key item on the recipe is mint baking emulsion, dont use the normal mint extract or it just bakes off and leaves no flavor behind.

Great. Now I'm hungry!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on February 13, 2017, 04:37:38 AM
OH YES!
Look real good now!

 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Cheers Kerrin
Thanks!



But now I have a hunger for some popcorn....

Been & checked the field & it's coming along, may be a bit late as summer comes & goes! Not looking good for camping next week!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on February 13, 2017, 05:04:22 AM
Ye-gads! I'm off line for a few days and you have Six pages of updates!  :o  And not all of them are food related either.  You made a lot of progress on your steering!  And great work it is too!  You don't take a break!  I have NO idea how you get so much done so quickly.  I can't even keep up with the build, much less make this kind of actual forward progress on a project! :)
Looks amazing Chris,  :popcorn:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 13, 2017, 12:53:59 PM
Ye-gads! I'm off line for a few days and you have Six pages of updates!  :o  And not all of them are food related either.  You made a lot of progress on your steering!  And great work it is too!  You don't take a break!  I have NO idea how you get so much done so quickly.  I can't even keep up with the build, much less make this kind of actual forward progress on a project! :)
Looks amazing Chris,  :popcorn:
Kim
It just takes practice, prectice, percatise,... Rats! I mean Practize!


Sigh, better go practice some more....!  :Lol:


The last couple of snowy/rainy days kept me inside, lots of shop time. I am still trying to decide how to make the steering wheel, may skip and come back to it later. Thin rim and spokes, needs to handle heat being near smokebox so soft solder is out...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 13, 2017, 05:43:12 PM
This morning I was looking at the front axle frame, and decided it was a little too chunky, so I went back and milled some more off the top and bottom surfaces to thin it up:
(https://s5.postimg.org/vhvdfk747/IMG_9397.jpg)
I also drilled the holes to take the u-bolts that hold the axle bar in place:
(https://s5.postimg.org/tc12l23nr/IMG_9396.jpg)
Then I made up the u-bolts themselves. The middle ones started as 1-3/4" lengths of 3/32" bar, with the ends turned down and threaded 2-56. The outer bolts were the same, just 1-1/4" long.
(https://s5.postimg.org/nqenh02yv/IMG_9399.jpg)
Then the u-bolts were heated with a torch and bent around the axle so the ends came out roughly even, then everything bolted up.
(https://s5.postimg.org/u5i9rez2f/IMG_9400.jpg)
The tips of the middle u-bolts were trimmed off above the nuts so they would clear the upper bracket. Also, I made up the hinge pin for the upper bracket. It has a small hole on the other end to take a cotter pin when it is all assembled after painting. The drawbar pin is also in place now.
(https://s5.postimg.org/75bmf318n/IMG_9403.jpg)
Next step is to thread the ends of the axle bar for the nuts to hold the skids/wheels in place, then I can start on the skids.

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on February 13, 2017, 05:47:43 PM
Best start getting those gnomes biceps in shape too Chris if they are going to be able to steer this thing :) Cookies alone might not be enough... :lolb:

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 13, 2017, 05:50:24 PM
Best start getting those gnomes biceps in shape too Chris if they are going to be able to steer this thing :) Cookies alone might not be enough... :lolb:

Bill
I caught one of them with a bottle of steroids and a brochure from the local gym!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on February 13, 2017, 06:34:41 PM
Better hide the credit cards then or they may all sign up at the gym... :ROFL:

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 14, 2017, 01:58:28 AM
I got the ends of the axle threaded (1/4-32) and a set of nuts made from hex bar:
(https://s5.postimg.org/vqxjj89af/IMG_9404.jpg)
Then, one more set of parts for the day - the brackets that hold the skids to the axle are started. They began as a pair of chunks of stainless steel, squared up and mounted in the 4-jaw in the lathe to turn in the protruding bosses on either side
(https://s5.postimg.org/rvu5gnq4n/IMG_9405.jpg)
and to drill the axle holes
(https://s5.postimg.org/3tdbls9hj/IMG_9406.jpg)
Then the parts were moved over to the mill to nibble away at the shape of the lower mounting arms. I started by drilling the curves under the upper ends, and some extra holes along the bottom to remove the bulk of the material
(https://s5.postimg.org/4wxfxqu4n/IMG_9407.jpg)
and then milled to shape. The bar across the bottom is there for support for now, it will be removed later, leaving the two 'legs' coming down to the skids.
(https://s5.postimg.org/fxsl2rmdj/IMG_9409.jpg)
Then sawed away the upper corners
(https://s5.postimg.org/wa7868q2v/IMG_9410.jpg)
and milled the tops of the feet
(https://s5.postimg.org/6fxfggq2v/IMG_9411.jpg)
before taking them to the disc/belt sander to shape the outer surfaces of the legs
(https://s5.postimg.org/ms7h674ef/IMG_9412.jpg)
Then it was time to saw out the bar across the bottom, and sand that cut smooth
(https://s5.postimg.org/vbqv3ycqv/IMG_9414.jpg)
Here they are test fit on the axle, just need to drill the holes to mount them to the skids:
(https://s5.postimg.org/5u8gkcv0n/IMG_9415.jpg)
Getting close to having the hauler stand up for itself!

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 14, 2017, 02:48:55 AM
Great progress, Chris. I think I see wood carving experience coming into play here.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 14, 2017, 02:55:12 AM
Great progress, Chris. I think I see wood carving experience coming into play here.

Jim
Probably right! See the animal inside the block, set it free!


If I could just get the chisels to work on stainless....
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 14, 2017, 09:55:05 PM
Got started on the skids today, began with drawing up the profile full size (full size for the model, that is), and cutting it out to use as a pattern for that dusty brown metal - some of you guys might have heard of the brand name, Wood.
(https://s5.postimg.org/7wn6n7e2v/IMG_9417.jpg)
Then up to the other shop, and cut a pair of the skids out of some Swiss Pear wood on the bandsaw - great stuff to work, very tight grain and takes a crisp edge.
(https://s5.postimg.org/uzdpmdfk7/IMG_9418.jpg)
The next step is to wrap the horizontal surfaces in metal. One of the folks up at the museum kindly sent me some closeups of the real skids, they have a plate iron or steel plate wrapped around the horizontal surfaces, and the tips have plates on the sides. There is also another narrow strip down the bottom to give it some extra bite on turns. Though Jean Claude Kiley has nothing to worry about from these skis...
I cut some strips out of a sheet of 0.020" brass to wrap the tops/bottoms in:
(https://s5.postimg.org/oa766cu87/IMG_9419.jpg)
and then cut a narrower strip, bent it to shape, and soldered it in place:
(https://s5.postimg.org/5vwn2dhxj/IMG_9420.jpg)
followed by drilling/tapping for 2-56 bolts to hold the strips on. The tap was run through the brass, and a few turns into the wood - the bolts would self thread the rest of the way in.
(https://s5.postimg.org/efg104q9z/IMG_9421.jpg)
Also cut out the shorter pieces for the sides of the tips, and started bolting them on as well.
(https://s5.postimg.org/fx1hbov0n/IMG_9423.jpg)
Still need to do the side strips on the second skid, and there is also a metal crossbar that goes between the tips to strengthen the whole assembly.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on February 14, 2017, 11:00:45 PM
Is that the same tree that the partridge was in? Nice form work.


Cletus
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on February 14, 2017, 11:06:24 PM
Nicely done Chris.  Will the brass be painted?

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 14, 2017, 11:36:26 PM
Is that the same tree that the partridge was in? Nice form work.


Cletus
Not sure if it was that tree or the one next to it...!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 14, 2017, 11:42:38 PM
Nicely done Chris.  Will the brass be painted?

-Bob
The entire steering gear assembly, and most of the whole model, will be painted black. The original plates were iron or steel, and the timbers I've seen were either painted or maybe creosoted like railroad ties.


If made today, a Lombard would probably have metalic two tone paint with flames and pinstripes.  As far as I know though, the original ones were just black.


One thing I saw recently was a short video of a gentleman in Maine who has been collecting Lombard parts from abandoned ones in the remote woods, and is building a complete working one! Once done it will be the fourth operational one in the world these days. Here's hoping he gets it going!!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 15, 2017, 01:51:08 AM
One thing I saw recently was a short video of a gentleman in Maine who has been collecting Lombard parts from abandoned ones in the remote woods, and is building a complete working one! Once done it will be the fourth operational one in the world these days. Here's hoping he gets it going!!

That's the kind of stuff that I find so interesting. The interests different people have and the lengths they will go to do it.

There's stories there...as in each of us...of how we got to where we are and doing what we do.

Some time ago my wife went out and collected stories of old time farmers in the mid-west. Fascinating stuff.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 15, 2017, 05:01:40 AM
There's a product that the model railroaders use called "Blacken It" for turning brass and other metals somewhat black:
http://www.modelexpo-online.com/product/AW2

I think I've got some around here somewhere. If I can find it, I'll put some on some brass and post the results.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on February 15, 2017, 05:19:19 AM
Hi Chris,
 Your posting photos of brown steel is going to have Jo reaching for :wine1: :wine1: :lolb:

The skid look good!

The guy finding bits of old haulers to make a "new" is cool! Bit like the guys here who have built a couple of misquito planes, I was watching some YouTube last night on them, great work.

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 15, 2017, 02:29:18 PM
There's a product that the model railroaders use called "Blacken It" for turning brass and other metals somewhat black:
http://www.modelexpo-online.com/product/AW2 (http://www.modelexpo-online.com/product/AW2)

I think I've got some around here somewhere. If I can find it, I'll put some on some brass and post the results.

Jim
I have used it in the past, it works pretty well as long as you get the metal very clean first. There are simaler products for aluminum/etc too, same results, metal must be scoured clean, no oils or tarnish. For the Hauler, the black paint sprayed on is simpler.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: ddmckee54 on February 15, 2017, 07:22:34 PM
I agree, the paint's simpler.  Besides, it just going to get worn off anyway, right?  I mean you are going to use this hauler in its' natural environment, right?  It's not going to be the steam crawler equivalent of a Ramp Tramp or a Hanger Queen, right?

Are you going to make the wheels that interchanged with the skids so they could use the hauler during the non-winter months?

Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 15, 2017, 09:51:30 PM
I agree, the paint's simpler.  Besides, it just going to get worn off anyway, right?  I mean you are going to use this hauler in its' natural environment, right?  It's not going to be the steam crawler equivalent of a Ramp Tramp or a Hanger Queen, right?

Are you going to make the wheels that interchanged with the skids so they could use the hauler during the non-winter months?

Don

I figure the paint around the sprockets and gears will get worn back, just like the original. The rest will at least get dirty. Assuming it runs well, it should get some frequent playtime out in the yard. The grass is too lumpy for the small front wheels (yes, will be making them to use for running, just like the originals had them to move when no snow). The wheels are only about 1-1/4" or so, since they have to clear the quadrant arm. A larger set would need a longer axle, and would raise the front end. So, it will get most of its running around the driveway and dirt areas. This one will be used, could haul the lumber in to build the hanger for the other models!
I am really curious to see how much weight it will be able to pull on a wheeled cart, a lot depends on the final weight of the hauler and how much grip it can get - on pavement probably not as much as on dirt/gravel. Too much weight to pull on a paved surface will probably make it do burnouts (worlds slowest burnouts? ).
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 15, 2017, 11:12:41 PM
Final parts on for the skids, bolted on the upper brackets, and made the crossbars at the tips. Simply lengths of 1/8" bar, threaded 5-40 at the ends for the retaining nuts inside and out of each skid. Ready for some paint! Still need to decide how to make the steering wheel, and make the wheels for summer use.
(https://s5.postimg.org/uzmwduubr/IMG_9427.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/67na6md53/IMG_9429.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/p1933mbd3/IMG_9430.jpg)
After the steering wheel and wheels, I think I am going to make the boiler support bracket, and at least mock up the firebox for the boiler so I can set the blank tube for the boiler in place - that should give a much better appearance to everything and keep the motivation up while working on the differential and engine parts! Oh yeah, the engine, this IS an engine forum, right? 'Bout time to get to that part!

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 15, 2017, 11:22:15 PM
Really shaping up Chris.

It's a really nifty model.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 15, 2017, 11:24:06 PM
Really shaping up Chris.

It's a really nifty model.

Thanks Zee!   :cheers:

Hmm, once you retire, will you change your handle to ZeeWasAProgrammer?!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 15, 2017, 11:29:40 PM
Hmm, once you retire, will you change your handle to ZeeWasAProgrammer?!   :Lol:

I doubt it. Nor will it be ZeeStillAProgrammer.

Maybe ZeeRetiredProgrammer.

No! It will be 'ZeeHappyProgrammer'. Yeah.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: steam guy willy on February 16, 2017, 02:56:44 AM
this is looking really good, and great to see a prototype being made, can't wait to see it running  .......and hear it as well !!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 16, 2017, 03:28:01 AM
this is looking really good, and great to see a prototype being made, can't wait to see it running  .......and hear it as well !!
Thanks Willy! I am going to be going up to the museum in Maine in May to see one of the real ones run, and will be taking the model up too. It may not be running by then, but should be by the next trip at the end of July, hope to have some video of them running together!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 16, 2017, 04:30:23 AM
Wow.........now we can start to see just how big this model is going to be! Impressive!  :)

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: joe d on February 16, 2017, 12:30:28 PM
Chris

Still following, and still enjoying :ThumbsUp:

Nice thing here is that we don't have to wait very long for another update  :NotWorthy:
the speed of progress is amazing!

Joe
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: steam guy willy on February 16, 2017, 01:40:14 PM
Will you be making the front wheel sets as well as an accessory, for when the snow melts ?? The axles for the skids are quite low so did it have a compleat bolt on steering mechanism ??
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 16, 2017, 03:42:46 PM
Will you be making the front wheel sets as well as an accessory, for when the snow melts ?? The axles for the skids are quite low so did it have a compleat bolt on steering mechanism ??

Yes - the wheels are the next parts up probably. For running around here on the driveway and such they will be used most often, then put the skids back on for display. The wheels are fairly small as you say, so that they clear the frame and quadrant arm. On the real thing they were just used for non-snow transport, so it didn't matter how large they were. I am planning on making them out of brass round bar, drilling/milling out the spokes. The wheels look a lot like a small flywheel. They are at the left in this rendering of the 3D parts:
(https://s5.postimg.org/iziemfp53/Steering_Gear_v16.jpg)

One other thing I need to change first though - just got an email back from one of the kind folks in Maine with a better photo of the skids in use on snow. I made the crossbars as a solid piece, it turns out that they are articulated to let the skids move more independantly. There is an eyebolt at either skid tip, and the crossbar has eyes at either end to connect to them. It makes sense to let them rock independantly, now that I see them in action. So, I will swap out the solid bars for the correct ones next.
(https://s5.postimg.org/pnlb07jyf/DSC_6097-001.jpg)
Oh yeah, and I need to add the safety chains from the frame to the axle too!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 16, 2017, 03:52:12 PM
I know what, Chris. Instead of wheels..........why don't you make a complete track system for the front end..........shouldn't take too long to knock out the few hundred parts needed!  :lolb:

It's really nice to have the folks up in Maine supplying you with pictures as you go along. Are they following your build thread and someone spotted the tie rods?

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 16, 2017, 04:29:50 PM
I know what, Chris. Instead of wheels..........why don't you make a complete track system for the front end..........shouldn't take too long to knock out the few hundred parts needed!  :lolb:

It's really nice to have the folks up in Maine supplying you with pictures as you go along. Are they following your build thread and someone spotted the tie rods?

Jim
More tracks for the front?   :slap:   and here I thought I liked you!


If I can arrange to get access to the Marion steam shovel near here then I may do a model of it, it has three sets of tracks I think...


I have been sending pics up to a couple of people at the museum and university at major milestones, one of them sent me the skid detail pics. Definitely looking forward to meeting everyone up there this spring.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 16, 2017, 05:05:47 PM
I know what, Chris. Instead of wheels..........why don't you make a complete track system for the front end..........shouldn't take too long to knock out the few hundred parts needed!  :lolb:

It's really nice to have the folks up in Maine supplying you with pictures as you go along. Are they following your build thread and someone spotted the tie rods?

Jim
More tracks for the front?   :slap:   and here I thought I liked you!


If I can arrange to get access to the Marion steam shovel near here then I may do a model of it, it has three sets of tracks I think...


I have been sending pics up to a couple of people at the museum and university at major milestones, one of them sent me the skid detail pics. Definitely looking forward to meeting everyone up there this spring.

I'm betting that once the Marion Steam Shovel folks see the model and documentation of your Lombard, they'll be more than pleased to accommodate you.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 16, 2017, 05:47:31 PM
I know what, Chris. Instead of wheels..........why don't you make a complete track system for the front end..........shouldn't take too long to knock out the few hundred parts needed!  :lolb:

It's really nice to have the folks up in Maine supplying you with pictures as you go along. Are they following your build thread and someone spotted the tie rods?

Jim
More tracks for the front?   :slap:   and here I thought I liked you!


If I can arrange to get access to the Marion steam shovel near here then I may do a model of it, it has three sets of tracks I think...


I have been sending pics up to a couple of people at the museum and university at major milestones, one of them sent me the skid detail pics. Definitely looking forward to meeting everyone up there this spring.

I'm betting that once the Marion Steam Shovel folks see the model and documentation of your Lombard, they'll be more than pleased to accommodate you.
I hope so! The little rectangle of land it sits on now is owned by the town and designated a landmark, so hopefully the historic society there is not too 'governmentish'. I figure that if I show some pictures of the Shay and Lombard, along with the 3D model, that I could get access inside if I would give them full copies of all photos, measurements, and 3D model/plans to help them document the machine - then it could be a win-win for all concerned. Definitely worth the attempt, might get them stirred up to do some restoration work on it.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 16, 2017, 05:51:31 PM
Okay, after hearing back from the museum of the correct linkage on the skid tips, I went back and made the ones at the read tips just a through bolt, and the ones at the front an articulated set of eye bolts. I went back through the vintage pictures, and found a few that show this same setup. Amazing what you can spot if you know what to look for!
Here are the new links in action:
(https://s5.postimg.org/be30vehaf/IMG_9432.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/kadszc7wn/IMG_9433.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: tvoght on February 16, 2017, 06:34:34 PM
Outstanding.

--Tim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 16, 2017, 07:41:34 PM
Outstanding.

--Tim
Thanks Tim!

Update: I was just in getting started on the front wheels, turned down the blanks, and started drilling for the spokes, partway through realized that I forgot to add the half-width of the drill bit to the side offset of the table.    :wallbang: So, back to remake one blank, and hope I'm not a half-width again...!   :facepalm2:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 16, 2017, 07:58:19 PM
I was just sent this link, to a set of three audio recordings of a steersman from a Lombard. Fascinating stuff! The links to the other two are across the top of the page.

http://resources.presqueisle.lib.me.us/omeka/exhibits/show/ashland/o-daggett/lombard-log-hauler-pt1

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Roger B on February 16, 2017, 08:26:42 PM
Still following and enjoying  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp: the picture of the of full size one underway is excellent  :)  :)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 16, 2017, 09:14:17 PM
Still following and enjoying  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: the picture of the of full size one underway is excellent  :) :)

If you want to see more photos and videos, check out their museum website here, lots of great stuff!
General Info:
http://www.maineforestandloggingmuseum.org/lombard-log-hauler-resources
Videos:
http://www.maineforestandloggingmuseum.org/lombard-steam-log-hauler-38-runs
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 16, 2017, 10:34:30 PM
Pretty fascinating stuff. Thanks for that.  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on February 16, 2017, 11:22:04 PM
That whole thing is soooo cool!!! I did not know about the Lombard until you started this project, Chris, and I've been just fastinated by it.  It's like the ole boy just woke up in the middle of the night and decided that if it was too expensive to lay tracks for a rail road that he would just make the loco lay its own tracks!!  :facepalm:

What diameter is the boiler shell for that contraption?

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 17, 2017, 12:55:14 AM
That whole thing is soooo cool!!! I did not know about the Lombard until you started this project, Chris, and I've been just fastinated by it.  It's like the ole boy just woke up in the middle of the night and decided that if it was too expensive to lay tracks for a rail road that he would just make the loco lay its own tracks!!  :facepalm:

What diameter is the boiler shell for that contraption?

Pete
Till Ron & company posted some pics and videos last fall I had never heard of them either. The Lombard seems to have filled a niche for areas too small to bother with laying track and too far for horses to be efficient. Neat stuff! I've found some old articles and books that reference the Lombard, its amazing how quickly he went from idea to prototype to production of a huge machine.


The boiler for the model is 3.25 OD, then there is a saddle tank for water over the top. I want to get the boiler tube blank page n soon to get a real feel for the looks, then I'll go back for differential and engine.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 17, 2017, 03:46:22 PM
With the skids made, it was time to knock out a set of wheels for non-snow/ice running. The wheels are fairly small diameter so that they fit under the steering gear and frame - they were used on the original just for off season transport, and used the same narrow axle as the skids. Some of the modern pictures you see show the haulers with larger rubber truck tires on wider axles, but I am going for the older style. It may be that I will make a wider/taller set for running, depending on how it behaves on these.

To start, turned/drilled the wheel blank on the lathe:
(https://s5.postimg.org/939k4yvwn/IMG_9434.jpg)
and then over to the rotary table to cut the spokes in. The spokes are approximately .150" wide, and I am using a 5/32" end mill (would have used a 1/8", but it was not long enough to reach through). The rotary table was centered on the cutter, then moved in .150 and left till it just cleared the hub. Drilled the holes for the inner arcs and out at the rim. For the second set of rim holes, the table was moved back .300. Same method as used on the sprockets, and used the method from Don's handy spoke spreadsheet.
(https://s5.postimg.org/94jhydxqf/IMG_9435.jpg)
then milled the first side of the spokes
(https://s5.postimg.org/6bqaecxdz/IMG_9436.jpg)
then the other
(https://s5.postimg.org/fksgoh69z/IMG_9437.jpg)
and cleaned up the outer arc
(https://s5.postimg.org/mpevb92x3/IMG_9438.jpg)
One down, one to go...
(https://s5.postimg.org/3ycy138cn/IMG_9440.jpg)
Another hour or so for the second wheel, and ready to test on the axle:
(https://s5.postimg.org/h3sg77287/IMG_9441.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/6uzz1de6f/IMG_9442.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/xu3twj0nb/IMG_9443.jpg)
Time for some painting, then on to the boiler front bracket...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on February 17, 2017, 04:31:05 PM
The skids and wheels both look fantastic Chris. I am loving these family pictures a lot!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on February 17, 2017, 04:45:22 PM
Damn nice work and I am loving it Chris! Awesome looking Dog.


Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 17, 2017, 05:34:32 PM
Thanks guys!

I was starting to lay out the boiler front bracket (supports the front of the boiler down to the frame), but realized that I used up the last of my 1/2" bar stock on the steering gear.

Elf Pucky!

So, gotta find some more of that, in the meantime I'll lay out the outer box for the firebox...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on February 17, 2017, 07:04:48 PM
It just continues to get better and better Chris.

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 17, 2017, 07:39:20 PM
Thanks Bob!

Got the initial drawings made for the firebox and boiler tube shell
(https://s5.postimg.org/limsxebif/Complete_Hauler_v54.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 18, 2017, 12:27:16 AM
Looking good, Chris. The wheels and skids came out great!

With the wheels on it, it looks like a dragster.  :lolb: Not only did Lombard invent the "Hauler" he invented the first ever dragster...........a really s...l...o...w dragster!  ;D

Jim 

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 18, 2017, 01:11:46 AM
Looking good, Chris. The wheels and skids came out great!

With the wheels on it, it looks like a dragster.  :lolb: Not only did Lombard invent the "Hauler" he invented the first ever dragster...........a really s...l...o...w dragster!  ;D

Jim
Plenty of torque, but the power to weight ratio is not that great!

Instead of a gasser, its more of a 'coaler'

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 18, 2017, 02:05:08 PM
The wheels look really sharp.

I enjoy seeing your drawings. Pretty cool stuff!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 20, 2017, 07:15:27 PM
All right! Back in the shop again finally after a few days knocked flat by a bad cold, fortunately it didn't hang on too long and I can move and think again, almost lifelike...   :insane:

Since I am waiting for a new supply of some 1/2" thick steel bar stock for the front boiler bracket assembly, I figured I'd get started on the firebox shell. This model will be steam powered with its own boiler, but I am going to use a single flue butane burner setup rather than coal firing it, with a single horizontal outer tube for the boiler. MUCH simpler than the original one. That means that the lower firebox shell is just that, a shell, with no function other than holding up the back of the boiler tube. It may also hide a larger steam whistle - the scale size one would make dogs run.

So, I got out some 0.050" thick brass sheet, and cut out the sides and ends, leaving a 1/4" extra on the length of the sides and the top of the ends to use for bending in some assembly tabs. I also cut some blocks of hardwood down for bending forms - they are .200 shorter than the finished sides need to be to allow for the thickness of the tabs and the overlap of the ends.
(https://s5.postimg.org/5r2j3k6br/IMG_9444.jpg)
Then, heated the area at the ends of the sides up to a dull red to anneal them, cooled in water, and clamped them between the wood blocks with 1/4" sticking out, then bent them over with a nylon hammer to avoid edge dings.
(https://s5.postimg.org/m3cktaknb/IMG_9445.jpg)
Here are the two side plates all formed up, pretty simple shapes.
(https://s5.postimg.org/xgz44hv5z/IMG_9446.jpg)
Then I cut a semicircle in the sides of the blocks to form the end plates with. This arc is the size of the OD of the boiler tube (3.125"), plus 0.050 for the thickness of the plate, so the final curve should match the tube.
The end plates were also annealed along the edge to be bent over, cooled, then clamped in the vise between the blocks:
(https://s5.postimg.org/ke3hl84xz/IMG_9447.jpg)
A little hammering later (the annealed brass bends like butter), and the shape was done. If I was to make another set, I would leave the plates wider, and trim them after this step - you can see how the tops pulled in from the forms somewhat.
(https://s5.postimg.org/rilau9c7b/IMG_9448.jpg)
After a slight tweak with some pliers they fit the tube pretty well,
(https://s5.postimg.org/gx1fi95vr/IMG_9449.jpg)
and a little trimming on the side plate flanges made them fit the end plates,
(https://s5.postimg.org/4jolbcg7b/IMG_9451.jpg)
With the forming done, time to drill holes for the rivets. Lots of holes for the rivets. LOTS and LOTS of holes...
Using the wood forming blocks as a backer, the plates were clamped down in the mill to drill the holes along the edges to join them, as well as the rows of holes across the flat areas to simulate the stay bolt pattern in the real boiler. There is no stress on this firebox like in the real one, so this will just be for show. If this was a true firebox under pressure, it would have been made out of thicker copper with bronze staybolts.
(https://s5.postimg.org/ugi9nyjuv/IMG_9453.jpg)
Matching holes were drilled along the tabs on the side plates
(https://s5.postimg.org/ejo34zguf/IMG_9454.jpg)
as well as across the sides to mimic the staybolt and seam patterns
(https://s5.postimg.org/oi91rgq9z/IMG_9455.jpg)
Both end plates are drilled, and one sideplate is too, still need to drill the other side plate, but it is time for a nap - have not got full stength back after the cold, but its very nice to be up and about again with the brain functioning, rather than in 'duh, what?' mode!   :insane:

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 20, 2017, 07:45:31 PM
Nice work Chris.

I've read different things about cooling heated brass. Some let air cool, others quench in water.
Does it make a difference?
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on February 20, 2017, 08:27:26 PM
Water cooling is necessary only if you are in a hurry.  :Lol:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 20, 2017, 09:40:58 PM
Yeah, quenching brass or copper doesn't change anything but how fast it gets cool, not like with steel. On a large complex part it could cause distortion if it cools unevenly, but that isn't a problem with sheet stock like this. It's surprising how easy annealed brass will bend, to a point. As soon as it work hardens it just stops moving. For the thicker copper endcaps for the boiler it will take several heatings and bendings to get the cap shape, since it needs to reform more, not just bend.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: kvom on February 20, 2017, 09:54:26 PM
After being gone for a couple of weeks, I'm now caught up.  Lots of progress.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 20, 2017, 11:22:37 PM
Yeah, quenching brass or copper doesn't change anything but how fast it gets cool, not like with steel. On a large complex part it could cause distortion if it cools unevenly, but that isn't a problem with sheet stock like this. It's surprising how easy annealed brass will bend, to a point. As soon as it work hardens it just stops moving. For the thicker copper endcaps for the boiler it will take several heatings and bendings to get the cap shape, since it needs to reform more, not just bend.

That's one of the amazing things I learned about metal.

I like this forum. Great explanations and help.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 21, 2017, 12:00:36 AM
After being gone for a couple of weeks, I'm now caught up.  Lots of progress.
Thanks! And welcome back!

Yeah, quenching brass or copper doesn't change anything but how fast it gets cool, not like with steel. On a large complex part it could cause distortion if it cools unevenly, but that isn't a problem with sheet stock like this. It's surprising how easy annealed brass will bend, to a point. As soon as it work hardens it just stops moving. For the thicker copper endcaps for the boiler it will take several heatings and bendings to get the cap shape, since it needs to reform more, not just bend.

That's one of the amazing things I learned about metal.

I like this forum. Great explanations and help.
I have learned a ton of stuff here!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 21, 2017, 12:06:12 AM
After a good nap, some good food, another nap, and some time reading, felt recharged enough to finish drilling the rivet and mounting bolt holes in the firebox shell. Its ready for riveting together and for the rows of faux staybolts (both will be same rivets). The ones to hold it together are too close to the edge for the riveting tool, I think, so they may need to be hammered in. The rest will use the tool, made like Florians wonderful post last fall.
(https://s5.postimg.org/ktjcrzg93/IMG_9457.jpg)
The shell seems to be stiff enough that I dont need to add any more bracing on the inside, will know for sure once the corners are riveted up. If it needs it, I can add some bars to one or two of the horizontal rows.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 21, 2017, 12:19:54 AM
Great stuff Chris. Sorry to hear you were down with a cold, hope you are feeling better.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 21, 2017, 12:23:30 AM
Great stuff Chris. Sorry to hear you were down with a cold, hope you are feeling better.---Brian
Thanks Brian! I was worried when it first hit with such severity, but it has receeded remarkably quickly. Maybe the shop elves put some magic into that last batch of the cookies...!  Feeling much better now, just need to get the full strength back again.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 21, 2017, 01:48:11 AM
Great stuff Chris. Sorry to hear you were down with a cold, hope you are feeling better.---Brian
Thanks Brian! I was worried when it first hit with such severity, but it has receeded remarkably quickly. Maybe the shop elves put some magic into that last batch of the cookies...!  Feeling much better now, just need to get the full strength back again.

I would wish for half your strength.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 21, 2017, 03:20:27 AM
Great stuff Chris. Sorry to hear you were down with a cold, hope you are feeling better.---Brian
Thanks Brian! I was worried when it first hit with such severity, but it has receeded remarkably quickly. Maybe the shop elves put some magic into that last batch of the cookies...!  Feeling much better now, just need to get the full strength back again.

I would wish for half your strength.
At least I don't get big and green when angry! Way too hard on the clothes.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 21, 2017, 04:33:28 PM
With all the drilling done, time to get the rivets themselves in. The ones I am using are 1/16" shank brass round head rivets. They come in several lengths, whatever length they come is never the length you need, so I usually get the longer ones and use a small end cutter to trim them to length.

I am putting in the ones in the fields of the plates first, since it makes them easier to handle, then will do the corner attachment ones last. For the ones nearest the corner, the riveting tool is too big, so they were done on the edge of a small anvil with a hammer - just needed a few hits to flare the bottom end and make it hold.
(https://s5.postimg.org/rzfp86epz/IMG_9458.jpg)
For the rest, I switched over to the forming tool like Florian showed in another build - it does a very quick job, and puts a nice round end on both ends of the rivets while drawing them up tight. It does take a few tries to learn how long to cut them to, but once that is figured out its easy to do full rows at a time. I showed this earlier on in the build:
(https://s5.postimg.org/m3sc2mm13/IMG_8515.jpg)
Here is the first plate half done:
(https://s5.postimg.org/5owfly6tj/IMG_9464.jpg)
I am going to leave one rivet open at the front upper corners to use to attach a strap over the top of the boiler tube. That strap will be hidden by the saddle tank over the top of the boiler.

Lots more to go...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Dan Rowe on February 21, 2017, 04:49:35 PM
It does take a few tries to learn how long to cut them to

My rule of thumb is 1.5 times the rivet shank diameter, which would be 3/32. I drill a hole in a scrap piece of stock to make a cutting guide. How close does this match what you are doing?

Dan
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 21, 2017, 04:56:49 PM
It does take a few tries to learn how long to cut them to

My rule of thumb is 1.5 times the rivet shank diameter, which would be 3/32. I drill a hole in a scrap piece of stock to make a cutting guide. How close does this match what you are doing?

Dan
If you mean 1.5x the shank diameter sticking out the other side of the stock, that sounds about right. A lot depends on the size of the hollow in the end of the forming tool. For mine, I think I am going a little longer than that, and leaving a broader head on the inside. I would say 1.5 to 2x would be a good range. For hammering it over, I tend to go a little shorter. Once I got the length figured out I just started snipping them off by eye, the exact length is not that critical.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Dan Rowe on February 21, 2017, 05:08:15 PM
Chris,
I make the dies match the factory head with a slight bit sticking out so the die does not make a mark on the plates.
Here is the formula for set allowance for British practice:
http://www.sapphireproducts.co.uk/641t1.htm

I just rounded S=1.429D to S=1.5D.

Dan
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 21, 2017, 05:46:19 PM
Chris,
I make the dies match the factory head with a slight bit sticking out so the die does not make a mark on the plates.
Here is the formula for set allowance for British practice:
http://www.sapphireproducts.co.uk/641t1.htm (http://www.sapphireproducts.co.uk/641t1.htm)

I just rounded S=1.429D to S=1.5D.

Dan
Great diagram - thanks!  After doing another batch, I am coming down to that 1.5x mark. Longer and it tends to push off to one side, shorter and it doesnt leave a full round.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 21, 2017, 05:48:39 PM
Got the first side and end plates done up, and joined together:
(https://s5.postimg.org/ytz6pcm4n/IMG_9465.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Johnmcc69 on February 21, 2017, 08:47:33 PM
Just beautiful work Chris! I'm learning a lot just from your posts & everybody's input.

 What a great build & documentation!

 John
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on February 21, 2017, 10:28:39 PM
Just down right awesome Dog! Your making me envious of your work........ :praise2:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 21, 2017, 10:35:32 PM
Thanks guys! This build is a lot of fun, gotten to the point where every part is really changing the appearance. I got the other panels done on the firebox, more pics tomorrow.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on February 22, 2017, 12:06:12 AM
Looks great Chris, I admire your patience with all those rivets too!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 22, 2017, 02:00:37 AM
Looks great Chris, I admire your patience with all those rivets too!!

Bill
With the rivet tool they only took a couple hours, and look great. Good practice for the saddle tank, all the seams are riveted. Going to make the flanges wider so I can use the tool up to the corners.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 22, 2017, 04:20:27 PM
I got the other sides riveted up last night, only difference from doing the first sides was that for the final seams, a bar was held in the vise to rivet against:
(https://s5.postimg.org/5ti9w11jb/IMG_9466.jpg)
I got lucky here this week, the weather has been unusually warm for this time of year, we are in the upper 60s heading for 70s, so I took all the recent parts outside for some paint rather than stinking up the house. Here is how its all looking now:
(https://s5.postimg.org/ghm0uvbif/IMG_9468.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/nm3u3wirr/IMG_9469.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/uqlncxq13/IMG_9470.jpg)

And to show a bit of where it is going, I set the raw boiler tube on top for a look. The front end is roughly where the front of the smokebox will be, and obviously it has not been cut to length, so it is hanging out over the back of the firebox quite a ways, but you get the idea. Half the firebox gets covered by the cab, and the top of the boiler by the saddle tank later on.
(https://s5.postimg.org/oe6i33myv/IMG_9471.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/96qiiqv47/IMG_9472.jpg)

If the stock for the front boiler support does not show up, I am going to start on the steering wheel next.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 22, 2017, 04:35:15 PM
Wow Chris............what a difference a little paint makes! This bad boy is starting to get some bulk.

As a side note, that "Dust Deputy" in the background looks interesting. What kind of vacuum do you have it hooked to? Does it separate out swarf before it goes to your vacuum?

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 22, 2017, 06:14:24 PM
Wow Chris............what a difference a little paint makes! This bad boy is starting to get some bulk.

As a side note, that "Dust Deputy" in the background looks interesting. What kind of vacuum do you have it hooked to? Does it separate out swarf before it goes to your vacuum?

Jim


Those Dust Deputy attachments are great. You put it on a 5 gallon bucket with a rim of plywood to stiffen the lid, and hang it on the side of a shop vac. I have a small 5 gallon vac. It seperates out all the dust and swarf, nearly nothing makes it to the vac anymore, except for the occasional bit of paper. Pop the lid and you can dump the bucket, the shopvac filter stays clean so it doesn't bog down. I use the same setup in my wood shop, same results there too, all the fine dust to big chunks separate out before the vacuum. With the vac and bucket on a set of wheels it all moves together. These work much better than the older lid type ones, same principle as the dyson vacs, just much much bigger cyclone unit.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on February 22, 2017, 08:39:57 PM
Hmmmm ... looks like that puppy will be on the road in a couple of weeks!

Tom
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 22, 2017, 09:31:37 PM
Wow Chris............what a difference a little paint makes! This bad boy is starting to get some bulk.

As a side note, that "Dust Deputy" in the background looks interesting. What kind of vacuum do you have it hooked to? Does it separate out swarf before it goes to your vacuum?

Jim




Those Dust Deputy attachments are great. You put it on a 5 gallon bucket with a rim of plywood to stiffen the lid, and hang it on the side of a shop vac. I have a small 5 gallon vac. It seperates out all the dust and swarf, nearly nothing makes it to the vac anymore, except for the occasional bit of paper. Pop the lid and you can dump the bucket, the shopvac filter stays clean so it doesn't bog down. I use the same setup in my wood shop, same results there too, all the fine dust to big chunks separate out before the vacuum. With the vac and bucket on a set of wheels it all moves together. These work much better than the older lid type ones, same principle as the dyson vacs, just much much bigger cyclone unit.

Thanks for the info, Chris. I'm going to look into getting one. l've been hesitant to vacuum up swarf and then have to deal with it in the vacuum filter. Sounds like one would take care of that issue.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 22, 2017, 10:14:01 PM
Wow Chris............what a difference a little paint makes! This bad boy is starting to get some bulk.

As a side note, that "Dust Deputy" in the background looks interesting. What kind of vacuum do you have it hooked to? Does it separate out swarf before it goes to your vacuum?

Jim




Those Dust Deputy attachments are great. You put it on a 5 gallon bucket with a rim of plywood to stiffen the lid, and hang it on the side of a shop vac. I have a small 5 gallon vac. It seperates out all the dust and swarf, nearly nothing makes it to the vac anymore, except for the occasional bit of paper. Pop the lid and you can dump the bucket, the shopvac filter stays clean so it doesn't bog down. I use the same setup in my wood shop, same results there too, all the fine dust to big chunks separate out before the vacuum. With the vac and bucket on a set of wheels it all moves together. These work much better than the older lid type ones, same principle as the dyson vacs, just much much bigger cyclone unit.

Thanks for the info, Chris. I'm going to look into getting one. l've been hesitant to vacuum up swarf and then have to deal with it in the vacuum filter. Sounds like one would take care of that issue.
I've been very happy with it - like you say, it solves the swarf-in-the-filter issues, and works very well. Only issue I've had is if I make the mistake of trying to vacuum up the long twisty shavings, they clog the vac hose itself.

They make a couple versions of these things, a cheaper plastic one and a heavier duty metal one. I have one of each, the metal one is up in the wood shop - went with it figuring that I would swing a long heavy board into the plastic one and break it someday. Both are identical in shape and function. They also make a larger version for big commercial shops with a bigger vac system. Also, they offer the buckets, but you can get them real cheap at the home center. Get two buckets, bolt one to the side of the vac, and use it as a holster to hold the other one. A plywood ring to stiffen the lid of the bucket helps a lot, keeps it from getting sucked inside the bucket.

I use a standard shopvac hose set with them, with the large crevice tool on the end to suck up chips around the machines. Oh, and if cutting steel, let the chips cool a few minutes first so you dont melt them into the plastic!! Naturally, all the manufacturers have changed their hose sizes just that little bit so they dont fit each other, you can always take a wrap of duct tape on narrow ends to make them hold.

You can buy them from a catalog place like Woodcraft, or direct from the maker. Search for the name, they have a website. Check around first, the prices vary a LOT. Some places charge crazy prices. Even at best, not cheap for a molded piece of plastic, but it works really well, I've had them for 10 or 15 years with no problems.

For the record - I have no connection to them at all (wish I had invented the thing!). Just a happy user.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 22, 2017, 10:16:16 PM
Hmmmm ... looks like that puppy will be on the road in a couple of weeks!

Tom
Yup, probably THIS weekend.

When I take it over to show my mother the progress, that is!

 :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 22, 2017, 10:29:33 PM
After a couple hours outisde on the front porch in the rocker, reading (it was near 70 today, February in upstate NY, go figure!), I finally went in and made the steering wheel. After way more time trying to decide how to make it than it took to make the silly thing, I decided to try turning and milling the wheel as one piece rather than coming up with a way to solder it. So, started with a chunk of bar stock, and turned it to 1.25" with a small hub, and used the parting tool to back cut the thickness of the rim while it was still solid. I used a file to round the corners on the rim.
(https://s5.postimg.org/c2csh3dvr/IMG_9477.jpg)
Then over to the rotary table, and milled out the spokes with a 1/8" end mill.
(https://s5.postimg.org/sre8d0ah3/IMG_9478.jpg)
and after hacksawing it off the bar (did not trust the parting tool on the thin spokes with interrupted cuts), held it in the lathe by the hub to clean up and detail the top side
(https://s5.postimg.org/ivd5dd4p3/IMG_9481.jpg)
then a couple minutes with a rounded file to knock off the corners of the spokes, it was ready for a test fit on the steering shaft:
(https://s5.postimg.org/52yqhqdxj/IMG_9483.jpg)
All looks good, so a bit of paint and some loctite to hold it in place comes next. The steering shaft is free to lift out of the lower bracket, which will make it easy to remove it when opening the front cover on the boiler. This is needed, since lighting the butane burner in the boiler is much simpler if the front inspection cover is swung open.

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 22, 2017, 10:57:10 PM
After finishing up in the shop, looked out front and the steel I was waiting for to make the boiler support was there, so that is back on for tomorrow!


Oh boy oh boy....   :cartwheel:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 22, 2017, 11:11:34 PM
The steering wheel came out great, Chris. You're getting this spoke business down pat!

Now it just needs a Betty Grable steering knob! Well maybe not.............the Lombard was a little before her time.  :shrug:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 22, 2017, 11:17:57 PM
The steering wheel came out great, Chris. You're getting this spoke business down pat!

Now it just needs a Betty Grable steering knob! Well maybe not.............the Lombard was a little before her time.  :shrug:

Jim
And a Charlie Chaplin one wouldn't be the same!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 22, 2017, 11:27:18 PM
Geesh. I read a bunch of posts from you...and then just minutes later (it seems) there's another set.

Very nice looking steering wheel.  :ThumbsUp:

Are your elves chaffing to drive the thing?
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 23, 2017, 02:13:06 AM
Geesh. I read a bunch of posts from you...and then just minutes later (it seems) there's another set.

Very nice looking steering wheel.  :ThumbsUp:

Are your elves chaffing to drive the thing?
They don't let me drive theirs, thats why I have to build one for myself!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on February 23, 2017, 02:23:19 AM
The family shot = speechless.

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 24, 2017, 09:22:38 PM
And its time for some serious stainless steel whittling! The boiler front bracket is next. Its been a while since I drew it, here it is again:
(https://s5.postimg.org/eu8dfqcqv/Boiler_Front_Bracket_v6.jpg)
I decided to make it from three pieces - two uprights, and the crossbar, silver soldered together. Each will be machined as far as possible before joining, to keep it simpler to hold in the vise. The crossbar will have some half-laps at the ends so I can screw it to the uprights for soldering. At least thats the theory, we'll see how it goes!
To start, I took some narrow bar and milled two of the corners in to form it into a T:
(https://s5.postimg.org/cikohoefb/IMG_9486.jpg)
and then came back and put a 3/8" long notch in, to form the half-lap joint at each end. The center rib will get drilled later for the screws to hold it to the uprights for soldering.
(https://s5.postimg.org/nkprg48hz/IMG_9489.jpg)
With that done, I laid out the outlines of the uprights on some 1/2"x1" bar stock.
(https://s5.postimg.org/lvgo81ssn/IMG_9491.jpg)
The bar is long enough to leave uncut material in the middle, so I can hold the ends for milling.
The next step was to recip-saw out the bulk of the material in the ends. I figured it would make the bar bend to take that much off of one side, and it did.
(https://s5.postimg.org/szyhh301z/IMG_9492.jpg)
That is with the straighedge held down the uncut, formerly straight, side, the light gap is clearly visible. As near as I could measure, just that short cut made the ends each curl over by 0.015". This was annealed 303 stainless, but it had not been heat treated to stress relieve it, so the internal stresses put into the metal when it was rolled out at the factory caused the curve. Not a lot, but something to be aware of.
So, the next step was to clean up the inside of the cut on the mill,
(https://s5.postimg.org/xzvxp15on/IMG_9494.jpg)
and then I took a light pass on the outside to take it back to level with the rest of the bar, so I could measure in for the final thickness. I set the mill to just touch at the start of the curved area, and ran it out to the end, could see it taking a deeper cut farther out. When done, nice and straight again.
(https://s5.postimg.org/y1agw6ww7/IMG_9495.jpg)
So, back to taking the inside back to final dimension,
(https://s5.postimg.org/5cxisyupz/IMG_9496.jpg)
and then notching the ends for where they fit over the frame rails.
(https://s5.postimg.org/pycakvcav/IMG_9497.jpg)
and notching the inner end for the mating half of the joint to the crossbar
(https://s5.postimg.org/dkzgdymmf/IMG_9499.jpg)
Here is the crossbar held to where it will go:
(https://s5.postimg.org/q0w67pfyf/IMG_9500.jpg)
With the main profile of the legs shaped, it was time to start notching in the sides from both sides - the cross section of the bracket is a large T shape everywhere.
(https://s5.postimg.org/lg9zsrw93/IMG_9502.jpg)
and same from the other side
(https://s5.postimg.org/bk8wt4qh3/IMG_9503.jpg)
and then the wider area above the frames
(https://s5.postimg.org/xxgnfxrev/IMG_9504.jpg)
Here are the parts so far
(https://s5.postimg.org/836uq5rev/IMG_9506.jpg)
and how it will fit to the frame rail
(https://s5.postimg.org/4xm8zy8sn/IMG_9508.jpg)
Next will be to do that area just above the crossbar. The curved section at the very top where it fits to the boiler will be done with the part held onto a plate on the rotary table. But, thats enough for one day, time to go get a cookie and relax...

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 24, 2017, 11:45:49 PM
Got a guy at work interested in Sherlines.
He couldn't believe what was available and their size.

But he doesn't believe me when I say, "Yes. They can carve steel".

(I didn't tell him that 'They' are elves.)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 25, 2017, 12:00:27 AM
Got a guy at work interested in Sherlines.
He couldn't believe what was available and their size.

But he doesn't believe me when I say, "Yes. They can carve steel".

(I didn't tell him that 'They' are elves.)
Well, show him the pics from this build, should be proof that the sherline can cut steel just fine! Maybe not in as deep a cut as quickly as a full size Bridgeport, but it gets there!


And yes, I must be an elf. From a long line of them from Thuringen and elsewhere. Only related to the silly Keebler ones in that we like cookies, but ours are naturally better!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on February 25, 2017, 06:00:21 AM
That's a very sharp looking steering wheel Chris!  Are you going to add a knob? (with our without Betty Grable? :))

And all your fab work on the boiler bracket is looking mighty fine too!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 25, 2017, 02:01:15 PM
That's a very sharp looking steering wheel Chris!  Are you going to add a knob? (with our without Betty Grable? :) )

And all your fab work on the boiler bracket is looking mighty fine too!
Kim
I looked at a bunch of vintage pictures of these, no sign of knobs on any of the steering wheel rims. Not even any Babe The Blue Ox figures from the rear view mirrors!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 25, 2017, 03:58:32 PM
That's a very sharp looking steering wheel Chris!  Are you going to add a knob? (with our without Betty Grable? :) )

And all your fab work on the boiler bracket is looking mighty fine too!
Kim
I looked at a bunch of vintage pictures of these, no sign of knobs on any of the steering wheel rims. Not even any Babe The Blue Ox figures from the rear view mirrors!

One of your posted videos of running the restored Lombard shows two guys reefing on that steering wheel. No steering knobs for them.  Must of been a real bear to steering that thing.

Good work on that frame. I like how you will bolt it together for silver soldering. Filed that one away.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on February 25, 2017, 06:01:10 PM
But, thats enough for one day, time to go get a cookie and relax...

Must be a lot of energy in those cookies Chris with this non stop work. I am thinking you must of worked for Santa at one time or another seeing as how you don't come up for air very often..... :lolb:
But hey Dog the work is great and following your work is remarkable....

Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 25, 2017, 07:16:14 PM
That's a very sharp looking steering wheel Chris!  Are you going to add a knob? (with our without Betty Grable? :) )

And all your fab work on the boiler bracket is looking mighty fine too!
Kim
I looked at a bunch of vintage pictures of these, no sign of knobs on any of the steering wheel rims. Not even any Babe The Blue Ox figures from the rear view mirrors!

One of your posted videos of running the restored Lombard shows two guys reefing on that steering wheel. No steering knobs for them.  Must of been a real bear to steering that thing.

Good work on that frame. I like how you will bolt it together for silver soldering. Filed that one away.

Jim
From the stories I've heard/seen, it was the worst in fresh snow, better when they were in a iced track. The steering wheel has a pretty good gear reduction to it, but there is still an awful lot of weight from the front of the machine on the skids. I saw pics from the museum when they had a truck scale under the front axle. With an empty boiler, it was over a ton on the front axle. Gotta be a lot more with a full load of water in the boiler and the saddle tank. The whole machine loaded up was something like 30 tons.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 25, 2017, 07:18:53 PM
But, thats enough for one day, time to go get a cookie and relax...

Must be a lot of energy in those cookies Chris with this non stop work. I am thinking you must of worked for Santa at one time or another seeing as how you don't come up for air very often..... :lolb:
But hey Dog the work is great and following your work is remarkable....

Don
Yeah, well, mentioned that on an earlier post, used to work at North Pole Inc., till the ... um, incident ... big food fight in the elf cafeteria, a bloody nosed reindeer, bad things written on the toys, some jokes about a big fat boss, you know how it goes...   :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 26, 2017, 12:45:18 AM
Got some more whittling done on the boiler bracket. Started out by continuing on at the upper half, drilling out the inner curve and milling the recess
(https://s5.postimg.org/9ej7cdcef/IMG_9509.jpg)
and continuing on around the outsides
(https://s5.postimg.org/nm8w10p3b/IMG_9510.jpg)
After doing as much milling as possible, I sawed the uprights out from the longer bar, leaving the curved section a little thick
(https://s5.postimg.org/45o6ehtzb/IMG_9511.jpg)
and then drilling the mount holes to the frame rails
(https://s5.postimg.org/d1yyifklj/IMG_9512.jpg)
and clamping the crossbar in place to drill and tap it for some 2-56 screws, starting with a long center drill to spot the location
(https://s5.postimg.org/wl3jrsjd3/IMG_9513.jpg)
and then the tap drill. The holes were tapped with the bar still clamped in place, no clearance drilling, since the parts are so thin I just tapped right on through the joint.
(https://s5.postimg.org/pja7jc553/IMG_9514.jpg)
at which point it was ready for some screws and then silver soldering
(https://s5.postimg.org/8k1942txj/IMG_9517.jpg)
After soldering, the screws were milled off flush
(https://s5.postimg.org/5r81k1tl3/IMG_9519.jpg)
The last milling operation is to round the curved sections at the top to fit the boiler tube. This part is way too large to spin on the Sherline faceplate, so I bolted a thick piece of plywood to a faceplate and mounted it up on the rotary table. After some layout lines, careful measuring, and clamping in place, it was ready to mill.
(https://s5.postimg.org/9ovb9ggef/IMG_9520.jpg)
Several light passes, and the inner faces were done. Then moved out and took the outer edges of the pads to shape as well.
(https://s5.postimg.org/om3sagtmv/IMG_9521.jpg)
Then a couple holes for the mounting bolts into the firebox,
(https://s5.postimg.org/438w5efpj/IMG_9522.jpg)
and its ready for paint!
(https://s5.postimg.org/zbhh2q5fr/IMG_9523.jpg)
The tops of the firebox need a few tweaks to get everything to lay in smooth, but pretty good fit overall.
(https://s5.postimg.org/xkyg18nwn/IMG_9524.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/q6948v213/IMG_9525.jpg)
A bit of paint and the bracket can be bolted on to the frame for real.
Next, I need to take some time to 3D model up the differential unit, and also get started on the engine layout. Fortunately for the engine itself, I have copies of profile drawings from the University from when they rebuilt the real one, so I can get a lot of detail measurements from there. The differential is an interesting beast, laid out differently from a modern car one in that the drive comes in from an upper gear, driving a larger lower gear with four bevel gears held within it to drive the output shafts. The lower gear is held in place by bearings on the output shafts.
(https://s5.postimg.org/p369xiqpz/DSC_3539.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/ckpogxtqf/lombard6.jpg)
frame to hold bevel gears:
(https://s5.postimg.org/fg2rnsxqf/DSC_1914.jpg)
half output shaft for one side
(https://s5.postimg.org/x7ee29d53/DSC_2118.jpg)




Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 26, 2017, 02:24:45 AM
Chris...being American, you do know that we learn best by making boo-boos. I haven't seen a boo-boo from you for a long while...if ever.
 ;D

BTW...in one of your shots is a shelf with a bunch of little itty-bitty things on it. You know the question.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on February 26, 2017, 02:30:10 AM
Brilliant work on the braket Chris.

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 26, 2017, 02:37:33 AM
Chris...being American, you do know that we learn best by making boo-boos. I haven't seen a boo-boo from you for a long while...if ever.
 ;D

BTW...in one of your shots is a shelf with a bunch of little itty-bitty things on it. You know the question.
I don't do boo boos. I do major brain farts! Most hit the scrap box or the trash can before the camera can focus. Most recent were te botched spokes on steering wheel, remade with new part. Also blew it on first front wheel.


As for little stuff in pic, which one? Most shelves in the room are like that!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on February 26, 2017, 03:11:21 AM
That boiler support is a very intricate part Chris, you make it look easy!! Nicely done.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 26, 2017, 03:45:38 AM
I like that support Chris. Definitely looks like a cast piece.

Great explanation on the differential..................not if I only understood it.  :Doh: Couple more times through and I'd should have it.

When you did the 3D drawing of the frame, does that give you all the pertinent measurements?

Jim

PS: I saw that same shelf as Zee and wondered the same thing. I don't know if others do it, but I always look in the background of pictures to see what I can see. Obviously Zee does.  ;)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 26, 2017, 04:05:06 AM
I think you guys must be looking at the upper shelf on the wall behind the boiler tube? If so, that is a row of miniature scrimshaw pieces, all fossilized walrus tooth sections. Those were all done by the wonderful artist William Carrera. I collected those years ago, also commissioned him to do scenes on a pair of full length walrus tusks I had. I used his work to learn scrimshaw techniques to do on my own collection of whales teeth (all legally collected before the ban went into place!) I haven't done any new scrimshaw in about 10 years, still have about a dozen teeth left to do.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 26, 2017, 04:07:31 AM
Oh, and yes, the 3d drawings give me the dimensions of all the parts. When I get the differential parts drawn, I will post some exploded views. Another simple but elegant mechanism. I was surprised how far back the diff mechanism goes.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 26, 2017, 08:24:17 PM
Today was a 3D modelling day - started in on the differential. I spent some time working out the number of teeth on the various gears to make it work out with the gear cutter sets I have, the spacing needed for the upper/lower shafts, and the space available inside/under the frame. I wound up increasing the gear ration slightly from the original machine, which is fine for a small model that I dont want to have run too fast given that the small engines seem to like running a little faster than the originals.

So, here is what I wound up with:
(https://s5.postimg.org/rgyhyd43r/Differential_v5.jpg)
The top blue gear (23 teeth, module 1) will sit in the middle of the crankshaft, drivien by the engines. The large orange bottom spur gear (72 teeth, module 1), forms the shell of the differential itself. The four teal inner bevel gears (24 tooth, module 0.7) ride on shafts in a plate held inside the large spur gear, and drive the light green output bevel gears (60 tooth, module 0.7) on either side. The light green output shafts will be held in bearing block sets on either side, and hold the drive chain spur gears at the outer ends.
To support the orange spur gear, the blue center plate has a shaft sticking out either side that rides in holes in the inner ends of the green shaft.
Now, here are some cutaway views:
The first shows the green bevel gear and output shaft on one side removed, so you can see the blue center plate and its axle.The orange spur gear has a rim on one side that the plate is bolted to. The plate slides in from the other side of the gear. The output shafts bear on the hub of the center plate to keep it centered.
(https://s5.postimg.org/rgyhyd43r/Differential_v5.jpg)
The second view shows the center plate removed as well
(https://s5.postimg.org/rgyhyd43r/Differential_v5.jpg)
which shows the four bevel gears and the axles they ride on. The bevel gear axles do not go into the center hub, they stop just short inside the central plate.

Now, if you are familiar with how a car's differential works, this should be familiar. As the blue top gear turns, the orange gear and its contents also get turned. If the forces on both tracks are the same, then the bevel gears do nothing, and the output shafts both turn together.
In a turn, say to the left, the left output shaft needs to turn slower and the right shaft faster. The freewheeling small bevel gears turn, so that the output shafts can turn at different rates.   

Hard to describe from a static drawing, If you go to this web site, it has some very good animations of the same basic mechanism. The only difference is that instead of a pair of spur gears, the input gear is another bevel gear set, but the inner gearing is the same.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/differential2.htm (http://auto.howstuffworks.com/differential2.htm)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 27, 2017, 11:45:49 PM
Some more work on the 3D model today, laying out the support frame and bearings for the differential unit. Here is the rendering of the frame/bearings,
(https://s5.postimg.org/rgyhyd43r/Differential_v5.jpg)
and the unit with the engine beds, which it bolts to.
(https://s5.postimg.org/b2a87g2iv/Engine_Bed_v58.jpg)
The final unit will also have a sheet metal cover over the differential gears (though it seems a shame to cover up all that work!).

That should be enough to get started on making the parts, will intermix that with the 3D model of the engine itself...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on February 28, 2017, 12:40:26 AM
Oh boy, oh boy! We get to see you make bevel gears... :popcorn:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 28, 2017, 01:09:46 AM
Oh boy, oh boy! We get to see you make bevel gears... :popcorn:

Pete
Again!   :o


Not my first set, made them for the Shay build. With the extra passes needed, they are like making the same gear three times, three times the chances to bungle something!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 28, 2017, 03:11:29 AM
Nice drawings and good explanation, Chris. Looking forward to seeing this come together. Pretty involved project.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 28, 2017, 03:16:24 AM
Thanks Jim,  I did take some time to make that y axis lock you sent the link for, works amazingly well! The stock one was more of a y axis slower downer than a lock.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: mike mott on February 28, 2017, 04:30:46 AM
Hi Chris I'm on Page 5 amazing work, the ship model is wonderful too, I suppose you are familiar with MSW http://modelshipworld.com/ (http://modelshipworld.com/)
and the wonderful build logs there of some remarkable ship models.

The track parts are very nice I cannot recall reading about the cutting of the slots depth of cut or feed info. Did you cut each slot in 1 cut or were there a number of passes in and out for each slot? I know this is way past , But I just started your log.

Mike
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 28, 2017, 01:22:41 PM
Hi Chris I'm on Page 5 amazing work, the ship model is wonderful too, I suppose you are familiar with MSW http://modelshipworld.com/ (http://modelshipworld.com/)
and the wonderful build logs there of some remarkable ship models.

The track parts are very nice I cannot recall reading about the cutting of the slots depth of cut or feed info. Did you cut each slot in 1 cut or were there a number of passes in and out for each slot? I know this is way past , But I just started your log.

Mike
Hi Mike!

I used to subscribe to the NRG's journal many years ago (in the pre-internet days), but I had not seen their forums - will have to go check them out! Thanks for the link.

For the slots in the tracks, those  were cut in one pass, done by hand so I can't give feed rates, just done by feel with a few drops of oil on the metal for each cut. That is why I had them laid flat for cutting the slots and came back to square up the bottoms of the slots, rather than vertical to do it in one go, or the 1/8" end mill would have flexed and heated up too much. The 303 stainless cuts nice and easily with a fresh sharp cutter, which helps a lot, another stainless alloy would not have worked out so well.

Chris
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: mike mott on February 28, 2017, 04:36:34 PM
Thank for the information on the cutting Chris. I will be continuing through the pages some more today.

The NRG forum is the best for Model ships that I have found, a lot of very good sharing of information.

Mike
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: mike mott on February 28, 2017, 05:49:57 PM
Got to page 15
Wow you work on the small lathe and mill certainly show what can be done. Your comments about taking breaks when doing repetitive work made me smile.
The tracks turned out very nicely, I shall have to try out some 303 stainless it looks like a nice material to use.

Nice beginning on the sprockets.

Mike
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 28, 2017, 11:17:01 PM
I've cruised NRG from time to time.

Hey Chris...any thoughts on how to do an 18th century hull in metal.  ;D
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 28, 2017, 11:20:11 PM
I've cruised NRG from time to time.

Hey Chris...any thoughts on how to do an 18th century hull in metal.  ;D
Sure!

Start with wood. They were not making metal ship hulls in the 1700s!

Or, rig up some CNC in that shiny new shop of yours!  Actually, I have seen some incredible ship models done in all silver. So, start with a 20 year apprenticeship with a silversmith...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 28, 2017, 11:24:24 PM
I've cruised NRG from time to time.

Hey Chris...any thoughts on how to do an 18th century hull in metal.  ;D
Sure!

Start with wood. They were not making metal ship hulls in the 1700s!

No help. No help at all.  :cussing:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 28, 2017, 11:28:48 PM
I've cruised NRG from time to time.

Hey Chris...any thoughts on how to do an 18th century hull in metal.  ;D
Sure!

Start with wood. They were not making metal ship hulls in the 1700s!

No help. No help at all.  :cussing:
None whatsoever.

How about gold leaf over wood? The outside would be metal...

Closest I ever got to making a metal boat was the bowl I made in a copper working class - looks a little like a welsh coracle. Think thats the right word - the little round boats.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 28, 2017, 11:31:28 PM
Got to page 15
Wow you work on the small lathe and mill certainly show what can be done. Your comments about taking breaks when doing repetitive work made me smile.
The tracks turned out very nicely, I shall have to try out some 303 stainless it looks like a nice material to use.

Nice beginning on the sprockets.

Mike
The 303 is very nice stuff - works sort of like brass, though not as quick a cut. Takes a nice finish, silver solders well, though I read it does not weld well, but I dont have a welding setup so no problem there. Much easier to work than some of the other alloys. I detest 304 stainless, though the one piece I tried might have been mislabeled.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: mike mott on March 01, 2017, 06:10:30 AM
Quote
Hey Chris...any thoughts on how to do an 18th century hull in metal.

Check out Gerald Wingroves stuff
http://www.wworkshop.net/Falls_of_Clyde/Menu.html (http://www.wworkshop.net/Falls_of_Clyde/Menu.html)

Thanks for the heads up on the 303 Chris I shall have to try some.

Mike

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 01, 2017, 01:09:10 PM
Quote
Hey Chris...any thoughts on how to do an 18th century hull in metal.

Check out Gerald Wingroves stuff
http://www.wworkshop.net/Falls_of_Clyde/Menu.html (http://www.wworkshop.net/Falls_of_Clyde/Menu.html)

Thanks for the heads up on the 303 Chris I shall have to try some.

Mike
Wow - that is some serious work on the Clyde model!

There you go Zee, step by step of a metal hull. First project for the new shop?

As for the Lombard, I am planning on starting the differential today...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 01, 2017, 10:30:24 PM
Time to get started on cutting metal for the differential unit. As you can see from the rendering, it has a central plate that holds the outer gear ring in place. The plate is made separate so that the four bevel gear axles can be drilled down through the rim.
(https://s5.postimg.org/rgyhyd43r/Differential_v5.jpg)
To start out, I cut two sections off some larger flat bar stock, the inner plate out of some .200" thick bar, and the gear blank from some .375" stock. A half inch hole was bored in each to take an axle - the one for the gear rim is just there till the gear is milled, then the center will be cut away.
(https://s5.postimg.org/3q036je9z/IMG_9527.jpg)
After boring, a length of 1/2" round bar was silver soldered into each plate, and then set up on the rotary table to take off enough of the corners that it would spin on the lathe without hitting the bed.
(https://s5.postimg.org/pqgfn5wxz/IMG_9528.jpg)
Then centered up on the lathe, ready to turn the blanks down to size
(https://s5.postimg.org/efdrysq2v/IMG_9529.jpg)
First turned down the smaller center plate to diameter and trued up the sides:
(https://s5.postimg.org/x8zkvsoav/IMG_9530.jpg)
then likewise with the gear plate
(https://s5.postimg.org/9w1jda87b/IMG_9531.jpg)
The recess on one side was turned in - this side is a shallow recess to form one side of the wall that the center plate sits against.
(https://s5.postimg.org/certrpjbb/IMG_9532.jpg)
then the other side was trued up, and the deeper recess turned in on that side. This side will take the center plate. Note that the hub area is not turned down all the way, that will get cut away later so it is not important how deep that section is.
(https://s5.postimg.org/6rvgu8gsn/IMG_9533.jpg)
And then back over to the mill once again to drill the mount holes that will hold the center plate into the gear rim. I wanted to drill both plates with one setup to ensure that the holes matched up. First the holes drilled/tapped in the center plate edge,
(https://s5.postimg.org/5qv853zt3/IMG_9535.jpg)
then the clearance holes in the gear rim were drilled
(https://s5.postimg.org/p9ztegykn/IMG_9536.jpg)
At this point, everything is ready to set up the mill for gear cutting - the rotary table will go up vertical, like it was cutting the teeth for the steering gear parts. Not today though, I want to come at the gear cutting fresh to avoid the dreaded tired-brain brain-farts!


Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on March 01, 2017, 11:53:35 PM
Those will be some nice parts! I do like your logical thinking in developing a sequence. It shows in all your work and, I think, is why you are so successful in making things.

This Lombard thing is sooooo neat!!!

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 02, 2017, 12:25:02 AM
Quote
Hey Chris...any thoughts on how to do an 18th century hull in metal.

Check out Gerald Wingroves stuff
http://www.wworkshop.net/Falls_of_Clyde/Menu.html (http://www.wworkshop.net/Falls_of_Clyde/Menu.html)

Thanks for the heads up on the 303 Chris I shall have to try some.

Mike

Wow - that is some serious work on the Clyde model!

There you go Zee, step by step of a metal hull. First project for the new shop?

As for the Lombard, I am planning on starting the differential today...

Won't be first project in the new shop...but wow. Nice site. Thanks Mike!!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 02, 2017, 02:14:04 AM
Those will be some nice parts! I do like your logical thinking in developing a sequence. It shows in all your work and, I think, is why you are so successful in making things.

This Lombard thing is sooooo neat!!!

Pete
Thanks Pete! Making parts from bar stock that would have been castings can be a challenge, but fun!


So glad that the Lombard came up in another thread last fall, was perfect timing for me, had been looking for something unusual for a while.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 02, 2017, 04:26:23 PM
Continuing on with the differential plates - I was going to go straight to cutting the gear teeth on the outer rim, but realized that I could use the current setup and finish the center plate first and save a setup change. So, I laid out the openings for the bevel gears and drilled corner holes for each of the four openings:
(https://s5.postimg.org/yo67hmvpj/IMG_9537.jpg)
then came back with the end mill and did the long edges of each opening
(https://s5.postimg.org/te18qcbgn/IMG_9538.jpg)
then angled the table and finished off the short edges
(https://s5.postimg.org/f90129rt3/IMG_9539.jpg)
Next step on the center plate was to flip the rotary table up vertical and drill the holes for the bevel gear axles, each centered on an opening
(https://s5.postimg.org/wasv4d6o7/IMG_9540.jpg)
and finished by turning the outer ends of the axle shaft to length and diameter
(https://s5.postimg.org/x1lla591j/IMG_9541.jpg)
Then, back to cutting gear teeth on the outer rim. I got out my handy dandy super hi tech chunk of plywood mill table extension, and set up the rotary table on that. This extension comes out whenever I am cutting teeth on larger gears, to give the reach needed  on the Y axis of the table.
(https://s5.postimg.org/vb2k8nrif/IMG_9542.jpg)
First few teeth cut - I am taking each of them in several passes, the tooth depth is .0894", and the rim is .375 wide, and that seemed like too much to do in one pass. This gear will be 72 teeth, so it is one full turn on the rotary table handwheel per tooth - nice and easy to keep track of.
(https://s5.postimg.org/ixpq1r1tz/IMG_9543.jpg)
So, a bunch more of these to do, and I can seperate the rim off the hub - will be cut just inside the mounting holes.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 02, 2017, 06:10:12 PM
Well, step backwards time.

I did some more cutting on the gear teeth after lunch, and ran into some problems. Most of the gears I've done till now have been in brass, this is first large one I've done in steel, and with the recesses already done in the sides of the plate, I am getting vibration and ringing in the plate when making the cuts, which is causing the shaft to move very slightly and slowly in the chuck. Big problems when cutting gear teeth!
 :Mad:    :cussing:    :hammerbash:    :rant:    :toilet_claw:

So, time to remake the rim part. I'm thinking I may try and find a large chunk of brass to make it from, given the size of the teeth it should be plenty strong for the model. I do have some 6061 aluminum that is thick enough, could make it from that as well, though soldering on an axle shaft would not work on that, though I could bolt it to a faceplate...

Rethink time!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on March 02, 2017, 06:30:17 PM
A big wad of clay around the blank will probably stop the ringing....

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 02, 2017, 07:13:18 PM
A big wad of clay around the blank will probably stop the ringing....

Pete
Interesting idea.  The first part is trash, though its good enough for experiments. I cut down a chunk of 3/8 6061 aluminum and bolted it to the faceplate, want to see how the gear cutter works on that. I will hold off on undercutting the sides though, that was a mistake on the first part, should have worked from the outside in.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 02, 2017, 10:13:41 PM
I sure hope I didn't jinx you when I commented on boo-boos (lack thereof).

But I also know that nothing stops you.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 03, 2017, 01:06:36 AM
I sure hope I didn't jinx you when I commented on boo-boos (lack thereof).

But I also know that nothing stops you.
Nope, not at all! I can't even blame it on stinking hoppies!


I got a chunk of aluminum bolted to the faceplate with a wood spacer, and 2/3rds of the teeth cut. So far so good, will see how it works when I undercut the rim to take the center plate.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on March 03, 2017, 02:52:16 AM
Well, step backwards time.

I did some more cutting on the gear teeth after lunch, and ran into some problems. Most of the gears I've done till now have been in brass, this is first large one I've done in steel, and with the recesses already done in the sides of the plate, I am getting vibration and ringing in the plate when making the cuts, which is causing the shaft to move very slightly and slowly in the chuck. Big problems when cutting gear teeth!
 :Mad:    :cussing:    :hammerbash:    :rant:    :toilet_claw:

So, time to remake the rim part. I'm thinking I may try and find a large chunk of brass to make it from, given the size of the teeth it should be plenty strong for the model. I do have some 6061 aluminum that is thick enough, could make it from that as well, though soldering on an axle shaft would not work on that, though I could bolt it to a faceplate...

Rethink time!

Well that's a bummer!  :wallbang: I wonder if this accessory would have stabilized the rim, so you wouldn't of had the vibration: http://sherline.com/product/3702-adjustable-right-angle-tailstock/ I've got one, but haven't had an occasion to use it yet.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on March 03, 2017, 05:56:32 AM
I wonder if this accessory would have stabilized the rim, so you wouldn't of had the vibration: http://sherline.com/product/3702-adjustable-right-angle-tailstock/ I've got one, but haven't had an occasion to use it yet.

I've got that accessory and it works great!  I used it when making my gears.
But then again, they were only brass.  But I found it a big help, and I think it would help for steel too.
Kim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: PJPickard on March 03, 2017, 11:26:16 AM
If you want to stick with steel try 12L14, it cuts like butter!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 03, 2017, 02:24:09 PM
I wonder if this accessory would have stabilized the rim, so you wouldn't of had the vibration: http://sherline.com/product/3702-adjustable-right-angle-tailstock/ (http://sherline.com/product/3702-adjustable-right-angle-tailstock/) I've got one, but haven't had an occasion to use it yet.

I've got that accessory and it works great!  I used it when making my gears.
But then again, they were only brass.  But I found it a big help, and I think it would help for steel too.
Kim
Probably would have helped. Maybe pick one up for next time!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 03, 2017, 07:03:19 PM
Differential main gear, take two!

I restarted the gear with a disk of 6061 aluminum cut from a 3/8" thick flat bar, and bolted it to a faceplate with a plywood spacer to give room for the gear cutter. The disc was threaded for the bolts, and nuts were added for good measure. The disk was turned to size, and mounted in the mill on the rotary table to cut the gear teeth.
(https://s5.postimg.org/ytsca9wjr/IMG_9544.jpg)
The need for the spacer shows in this picture - without it the cutter would have hit the faceplate.
(https://s5.postimg.org/okzv4g8hz/IMG_9546.jpg)
With the center of the disc left full thickness, and the softer aluminum, there was no problem with vibration this time.   :)
After cutting the teeth, the rotary table was laid down horizontal and the inside of the rim milled out. With the bolts in place, there was not enough room for the turning tool to do this on the lathe. So, took it down to depth in several passes, then moved out to finished diameter in a few more.
(https://s5.postimg.org/ls6nkf85j/IMG_9547.jpg)
Then drilled the mounting holes to match the center plate made earlier
(https://s5.postimg.org/6kqo02gav/IMG_9548.jpg)
and then turned the disk over to mill the shallow recess on the back side.
(https://s5.postimg.org/5whth4hl3/IMG_9549.jpg)
To seperate the waste center from the rim, I had to cut off the bolts so I could move the end mill in far enough, then ran a set of shallow cuts around the inside of the rim till it just broke through. As it came around to the final section, I pushed on the rim to ensure it would move over clear and not get flung by the cutter.
(https://s5.postimg.org/smgya40sn/IMG_9550.jpg)
Success! I was surprised how light the finished rim was, am more used to the weight of brass or steel.
(https://s5.postimg.org/jsq1t0dtz/IMG_9551.jpg)
Cleaned up a few burs, and did a test fit with the center plate. The center plate, in steel, will keep the rim solidly in place. The reason the center plate needs to be a separate piece is that it has the axle holes for the bevel gears - when the rim is in place, the axles are kept captive.
(https://s5.postimg.org/rmqneelmv/IMG_9552.jpg)
Here is what it looks like from the back side:
(https://s5.postimg.org/he2rmbmyv/IMG_9553.jpg)
and showing where it will sit under the boiler between the main frame rails:
(https://s5.postimg.org/gptx3do93/IMG_9555.jpg)
I think next I'll make the smaller spur gear that will sit on the crankshaft and drive this large gear, then move on to the bevel gears.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: tvoght on March 03, 2017, 07:47:19 PM
There are certain problems that present themselves given the relative size of your project and your equipment. I am ever impressed with your ready solutions.

Lookin` good!

--Tim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 03, 2017, 08:10:35 PM
There are certain problems that present themselves given the relative size of your project and your equipment. I am ever impressed with your ready solutions.

Lookin` good!

--Tim

Thanks Tim! Always fun to push the limits...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 03, 2017, 09:11:25 PM
And the simple gear done - the gear on the crankshaft that drives the differential is a 23 tooth module 1 spur gear with a 1/2" center hole. Started with a short length of brass bar in the 4-jaw, turned the end to size, and set up on the rotary table:
(https://s5.postimg.org/tii13azuv/IMG_9559.jpg)
The brass is a joy to cut gears from, cuts nice and smooth, very clean finish. I pre-calculate the rotary table settings and make a list of positions to stop at so that there is no rounding errors to walk the gear teeth out as you go around on an odd advance like this one, which is 15.65217391... degrees per tooth.
(https://s5.postimg.org/pnen0qgp3/IMG_9560.jpg)
After cutting all the teeth, moved the chuck back to the lathe to drill
(https://s5.postimg.org/txtawbls7/IMG_9562.jpg)
and bore the center hole to size
(https://s5.postimg.org/yxqr49rev/IMG_9563.jpg)
before parting it off to length
(https://s5.postimg.org/dpd2mucxz/IMG_9564.jpg)
for a test fit with the differential ring gear
(https://s5.postimg.org/myf8wyltz/IMG_9565.jpg)
All looks good so next time I can start on the bevel gears. These two made a good warmup for the bevels, which are a slightly more complicated process. I will be doing the bevel gear teeth with the straight tooth method from Ivan Law's book on gearcutting.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on March 03, 2017, 09:19:01 PM
Absolutely beautiful work!! Tools are no limit in your shop...

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: mike mott on March 03, 2017, 09:35:58 PM
Very nice solution and execution of the gear cutting.

Mike
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 03, 2017, 09:49:09 PM
Nicely done!  :ThumbsUp:

I'm looking forward to the bevel gear work.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 03, 2017, 10:35:00 PM
Thanks guys! It will be a couple days before I get much done on the bevel gears, bunch of other stuff this weekend, including our monthly rc boat/sub run at the local pool. In the meantime, eat cookies among yourselves...!  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on March 04, 2017, 05:42:50 AM
Beautiful gears Chris!  You make it look too easy.  :popcorn:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on March 04, 2017, 03:34:09 PM
I just got to find out what you been putting in those cookies Chris..... :lolb: got to be some good stuff Dog because you just don't stop and come up for air.... :lolb: you putting this old Coonass to shame Dog, damn that's some awesome work........ :praise2:

Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 04, 2017, 05:58:55 PM
I just got to find out what you been putting in those cookies Chris..... :lolb: got to be some good stuff Dog because you just don't stop and come up for air.... :lolb: you putting this old Coonass to shame Dog, damn that's some awesome work........ :praise2:

Don
There is something magic about the combination of mint and dark chocolate!   :thinking:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Jo on March 04, 2017, 06:23:27 PM
There is something magic about the combination of mint and dark chocolate!   :thinking:

And good red wine and castings  ::)

Jo
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 04, 2017, 07:36:02 PM
There is something magic about the combination of mint and dark chocolate!   :thinking:

And good red wine and castings  ::)

Jo
Well, that goes without saying!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on March 04, 2017, 07:38:18 PM
There is something magic about the combination of mint and dark chocolate!   :thinking:

And good red wine and castings  ::)

Jo

And even good red wine without castings.  :wine1:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 04, 2017, 09:18:58 PM
Before cutting any metal on the bevel gears, I needed to go through and run the math on the gears. I started with the Ivan Law book, but kept running into incomplete or confusing formulas, so I went and found an online calculator to clarify things. Here is the math I wound up with (spreadsheets are VERY handy things)

 
Number Teeth - N
24
60
Module
0.7
0.7
DP
36.28571429
36.28571429
Pitch Diameter: D= N/P
0.661417323
1.653543307
Diametral Pitch: P= N/D
36.28571429
36.28571429
Whole Depth:  Ht= 2.188/P+.002
0.062299213
0.062299213
Addendum: a= 1/P
0.027559055
0.027559055
Dedendum : b= Ht-a
0.034740157
0.034740157
Clearance: c= Ht-2*a
0.007181102
0.007181102
Circular Tooth Thickness: T= PI/(2*P)
0.043289663
0.043289663
Pitch Angle:  Lp = atan(Np/Ng),  and Lg= atan(Ng/Np)
21.80140949
68.19859051
Pitch Cone Radius:  Rcp= D/(2*sin(Lp)), and Rcg= D/(2*sin(Lg))
0.890460322
0.890460322
Face Width:  F= min(C/3, 8/P)
0.220472441
0.220472441
Outside Diameter:  Dop= Dp+2*a*cos(Lp),  and Dog= Dg+2*a*cos(Lg)
0.712593203
1.674013659
Back Cone Angle:  = 90-L;
68.19859051
21.80140949
Back Cone Radius:  Rbp= Dp/cos(Lp), and Rbg= Dg/cos(Lg)
0.356184129
2.226150806
Virtual Number of Teeth:  Vp= N/cos(Lp),  and Vg= N/cos(Lg)
25.84879107
161.5549442
Offset for second cut on teeth:
0.021629381
0.021642359
Degrees per whole tooth to move rotary table
15
6
Blank Roll - angle to move rotary table for second cut
3.75
1.5
Tooth Depth to cut
0.059444882
0.059444882

Assuming that I did the math correctly (it matched the online calculator so it should), I now have the info I need for cutting the gears (and some I don't, but it was there in the calculator). The numbers really needed are marked in bold. The virtual number of teeth is the number used to pick which cutter to use when cut constant depth bevel gears.
So, time to go pick some bar stock and figure out the setup on the rotary table - need to angle it 21.8 degrees from the centerline of the mill table. Also need to get out the compound slide on the lathe to prepare the blanks, again 21.8 degrees for the four small gears, 68.198 degrees for the two large gears.

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Jo on March 05, 2017, 08:51:27 AM
 :thinking: Chris I think you need to drop a couple of those decimal places, it would make that lot easier to read.

I'm assuming you are talking 68.2 degrees (68.198) because you are cutting on a rotary table rather than an indexing head. I can recommend indexing heads for cutting gears: they have more bearing surface supporting the spindle than using a rotary table in the vertical mode ::)

Do you not have a copy of ShopCalc? Do you really mean 0.7 DP in your calculations?

Jo
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 05, 2017, 12:39:36 PM
Sorry Jo, I had just copy/pasted from the spreadsheet, which had a bushel of decimal places! 


I don't have Shopcalc, what is it?


And it is .7 module, which is 36.2 dp. That is in there correctly if you follow the line across. I have cutter sets for .7 and 1 module gear teeth, were bought for clock projects originally.


I got the blank set up for the first gear last night, and the rotary table angled over, pics later today.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Jo on March 05, 2017, 01:05:32 PM
0.7 module was what I thought.... Corrected sheets attached.

Shopcalc: http://home.scarlet.be/mini-draaien-frezen/engels/program-01.html a useful little calculator program that I use to quickly do the maths for gear cutting  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 05, 2017, 01:11:44 PM
Looks like a great utility, I'll give it a try! Thanks!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 05, 2017, 05:08:57 PM
Okay, I got the boat stuff ready for the pool run later, so on to the first bevel gear. I am starting with the four smaller gears - less stock to waste in case of boo boo's, which I already had one of when I forgot to reset the Z axis on the third pass.

To start, chucked up a length of brass bar, and turned the end down to the outside diameter of the gear.
(https://s5.postimg.org/xub861w5j/IMG_9567.jpg)
Then, turned in the hub at the end, and used the compound rest to turn in the bevel where the teeth will go, at 21.8 degrees.
(https://s5.postimg.org/3qwpe3sw7/IMG_9570.jpg)
Then over to the mill, with the chuck held on the rotary table just like was done for the spur gears earlier. The one difference is that the rotary table needed to be turned 21.8 degrees to put the bevel on the gear in line with the mill table. Not having a good way to measure that angle, I held a straight edge on the side of the gear blank, and sighted down to the mill table and adjusted till it lined up. Then I drilled another hole in the table extension for another hold down bolt, and put on a clamp at the front for good measure.
(https://s5.postimg.org/avein505j/IMG_9571.jpg)
After carefully centering the cutter on the end of the blank (used the tool marks on the end of the blank to know where the middle was), the table was moved in till the cutter just touched the blank, then in again by the depth of the teeth. Then, the first pass was made as with a normal spur gear, 15 degrees per tooth for the 24 tooth gear.
(https://s5.postimg.org/smq51lfk7/IMG_9573.jpg)
Then comes the interesting bit with bevel gears. If you look closely at the teeth after the first pass, you can see that the outside ends of the teeth are wider than the gap between the teeth. The next two passes will fix that. For the second pass, the cutter was lowered by 0.021" from the center position, and the rotary table starting position moved clockwise by 3.75 degrees (which is 1/4 of the 15 degree full tooth). At this new position, the cutter enters the opening in the narrow end of the blank that was cut on the first pass, but as it moves along it takes more material off one side of the tooth, narrowing it at the outer end. A pass on all the teeth was made, turning the rotary table 15 degrees from the new starting point for each tooth.
(https://s5.postimg.org/ds1jnf5zb/IMG_9574.jpg)
Then, for the third pass, the cutter was raised back to the starting point, and another 0.021" up past the starting point. The rotary table starting position was moved counterclockwise by 3.75 degrees, which puts the cutter at the center of the narrow end opening again, but takes a little off the other side of the tooth.
(https://s5.postimg.org/n2i94p62v/IMG_9575a.jpg)
It can be hard to see the difference looking between the three photos, so here is a montage of all three:
(https://s5.postimg.org/n2i94p62v/IMG_9575a.jpg)
It is still a subtle difference from pass one (left) to two (middle), but if you compare one to three, it is clear that the outer ends of the teeth are narrower, matching the center gap. At least it should. Hard to be sure with just one gear made, the real test is when the matching large gears are made later, I will make all four small ones with the current setup, and hope it is right.
The next step on the first gear was to drill for its axle,
(https://s5.postimg.org/wobtkzx8n/IMG_9576.jpg)
and part it off to size:
(https://s5.postimg.org/g1u9bx4av/IMG_9577.jpg)
Here is the first one test fit in the differential plate:
(https://s5.postimg.org/vbu4j3zt3/IMG_9579.jpg)
All spins freely, so next time I'll make the other three small gears...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 05, 2017, 07:07:08 PM
Gear number 2 made, 2 to go.
(https://s5.postimg.org/f23yg7p53/IMG_9580.jpg)
Good news on it is, it meshes nicely with the first one, though not at 90 degrees naturally. Still, a good sign that the shapes are right, will know for sure when the 60 tooth ones are made...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on March 06, 2017, 03:38:15 AM
That is pretty cool, Chris!  I really appreciate the step by step on the bevel gears, and the 3 pass picture. That is very interesting.  Now I'm going to have to make some bevel gears some day.  You make it look so easy!

Can't wait to see the mating part of the differential!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on March 06, 2017, 08:34:30 AM
 :popcorn: must get more  :popcorn:

Great "how to" Chris, be good reference for the future. Jo's link looks like it would be very helpful too

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 06, 2017, 02:13:13 PM
Thanks! I got one more made before the pool run last night, should have the last one this morning, and get a start on the large bevel gears.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 06, 2017, 05:33:09 PM
Some pics from the pool run last night.
Some of the group in the shallow end:
(https://s5.postimg.org/56lpiwttz/IMG_1686.jpg)
and some video of my new lobsterboat and of one of the guys minisubs leaping around
pU7SOVerAaw
OtiDnAywO4I
Today, back to the gears...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 06, 2017, 09:10:35 PM
And back in the shop this afternoon to continue work on the differential gears. I finished the last of the small gears,
(https://s5.postimg.org/gk88u44cn/IMG_9581.jpg)
and got a start on the two large ones for the output shafts. Started by turning a length of bar stock to the outside diameter, 1.67", and drilling the starter hole for the shaft,
(https://s5.postimg.org/vu841azuv/IMG_9582.jpg)
which was then bored out to size
(https://s5.postimg.org/dsoz3i5tz/IMG_9583.jpg)
Then set up the compound rest to the complent of the angle for the first gears, 68.2 degrees, and turned in the bevel on the face
(https://s5.postimg.org/3k13bf75z/IMG_9584.jpg)
and then came back with the boring bar and recessed the center of the face by 0.060" to get it below the depth of the teeth.
(https://s5.postimg.org/ouynfopaf/IMG_9585.jpg)
Then moved the chuck back over to the rotary table on the mill, which is still in the same position as it was for the smaller bevel gears. The one difference for the larger gears is that rather than cutting on the back face with the long axis of the mill, these will be cut on the front face with the short axis, which lets me keep the table at the same angle but get the complementary face of the gears.
(https://s5.postimg.org/kzv9d464n/IMG_9587.jpg)
With the mill table zeroed with the cutter just touching the face of the bevel, then moved in the tooth depth, started cutting the teeth. These larger gears are 60 tooth, so the advance angle on the rotary table is 6 degrees per cut.
(https://s5.postimg.org/hhj9gq58n/IMG_9590.jpg)
Here is the gear after the first pass,
(https://s5.postimg.org/ggj0rlo93/IMG_9591.jpg)
and then the cutter was lowered 0.021 and the rotary table moved 1.5 degrees (counterclockwise this time, since it is on the opposite face from the small gears), and a second pass was made to shave the outer ends of the teeth:
(https://s5.postimg.org/67qjls07b/IMG_9593.jpg)
and then the cutter raised the same distance above center, and the rotary table offset 1.5 degrees clockwise, for the third pass:
(https://s5.postimg.org/tah2ky1on/IMG_9594.jpg)
With the teeth complete, back over to the lathe to part off the gear. This was done in two steps to leave a thicker area around the hub.
(https://s5.postimg.org/b8xxn57nr/IMG_9595.jpg)
And the completed gear test fit on the differential unit - all seems to mesh nicely, so I must have gotten the math right the other day! 
 :cartwheel:
(https://s5.postimg.org/d20ubgsuf/IMG_9596.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/fkmjc5ekn/IMG_9599.jpg)
So, one large gear down, one to go, then I can make the output half-shafts to hold the large gears.

But first, a celebratory chocolate mint chip cookie!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on March 06, 2017, 09:17:13 PM
That is just too neat, Chris!  You must fell like doing a happy dance right now   :whoohoo:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 06, 2017, 09:18:06 PM
That is just too neat, Chris!  You must fell like doing a happy dance right now   :whoohoo:
Kim
Oh yes! Its always great when days of work come out successfully!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: scc on March 06, 2017, 10:35:47 PM
Very impressive Chris,  So far I've chickened out from attempting gears. That diff. looks fine.         Regards...........Terry
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on March 06, 2017, 10:42:09 PM
Well, there's no doubt in my mind where to go when I need some gears cut.. :naughty:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 06, 2017, 11:12:20 PM
Very impressive Chris,  So far I've chickened out from attempting gears. That diff. looks fine.         Regards...........Terry

Straight spur gears are not difficult at all, practice on a gouple scraps and you'll get it pretty quick. Bevel gears are a bit fussier, but its the same basic steps with just a couple added wrinkles.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 06, 2017, 11:13:01 PM
Well, there's no doubt in my mind where to go when I need some gears cut.. :naughty:

Pete

Yup - to SDPI's website?!   :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 06, 2017, 11:20:58 PM
After a good relax time and some dinner, I went back and cut the last bevel gear. Knowing the setup was good made this last one go a lot faster, plus I finally got up the nerve to try something that the Ivan Law book remarks upon: on small gears, you can actually skip the first pass and just do the final two, since they are taking off such a small amount on small gears. The blank I was starting with had enough length that if it went wrong, I could still get one more out of it, but it all worked out fine.
Here are all the parts so far for the differential unit:
(https://s5.postimg.org/iwymaoah3/IMG_9601.jpg)
and how they look put together:
(https://s5.postimg.org/lsbphjeh3/IMG_9603.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/9rq9gt72f/IMG_9604.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/93hexv8cn/IMG_9605.jpg)
Next up will be the half shafts that the large gears ride on. They will have a hole in the inboard end that goes over the axle stub in the center plate, and a narrower section at the outboard ends that the drive chain sprockets sit in. The axle shafts will project in from the large gears and ride against the center plate hub to give the proper spacing for the gears. The speed difference from the center plate to the half shafts is very small, and only present in turns, so I dont think I will bother with bronze bearings there, just some grease.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on March 06, 2017, 11:48:02 PM
Very nice work Chris. I have no issues with plain spur gears---if you have the correct gear cutters it's just straight math and paying attention. I have one set of 45 degree bevel gears that I made following an Australian fellows tutorial on making them, and there is a lot involved with making them. I have the one set up on my "Brag shelf" but wouldn't want to make them very often.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 06, 2017, 11:53:49 PM
On these I had some problems at first getting the depth right, I think I made the face width too large so the teeth at the inside ends got too skinny. There are numerous write-ups and calculators out there, but none seem to give complete details on how to calculate everything. The Ivan Law book gets close, but since his example was for the simplist case (two 20 tooth gears) there are things left vague for other cases.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on March 07, 2017, 12:23:23 AM
But first, a celebratory chocolate mint chip cookie!

Yeah, yeah! We all know what's in those cookies......got to be some good stuff, but the gears look great ther Dog.  :praise2:

Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: steam guy willy on March 07, 2017, 12:58:46 AM
Those are geeeerrraat and you make it all look so easy some lovely work going on here......really inspirational..
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on March 07, 2017, 03:05:47 AM
That assembly alone is a work of art Chris. Thanks for the great pictures and write up too!!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on March 07, 2017, 03:31:45 AM
Yes...........great documentation and pictures!  :ThumbsUp: Still seems like a bit of "black magic", but then I've thought the about other machining things, until I actually waded through the process of doing it.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 07, 2017, 04:10:36 AM
Thanks guys! If it doesn't work out as a differential, it will make a great steampunk carousel for the shop elves!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on March 07, 2017, 07:53:18 AM
Hang about....were did that new boat pop up from?
Zee we have been duped!
Those elves are on double time....ether that or they are running two shifts! Boat & gears at the same time!

Oh the gears do look the part! The elves will be keen to nick them!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: kvom on March 07, 2017, 12:40:48 PM
Impressive!!   :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 07, 2017, 12:49:13 PM
Hang about....were did that new boat pop up from?
Zee we have been duped!
Those elves are on double time....ether that or they are running two shifts! Boat & gears at the same time!

Oh the gears do look the part! The elves will be keen to nick them!

Cheers Kerrin
Actually the boat was on very slow schedule. I won the fiberglass hull in the raffle at the big RC submarine meet in Carmel Indiana last August, got the cabin made last fall, and it sat unfinished for the last 5 months till I finally got the running gear mounted last week. Still need to put in the cockpit controls and the lobster pot winch and pulley.
To paraphrase Monty Python, the elves responsible for finishing this boat have been sacked!
Just in time too, I was just given a kit for a Delphin minisub...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 07, 2017, 07:10:42 PM
Made up the output shafts from the differential this afternoon, simple bit of turning. Started with some 3/8" bar stock, turned one end down to 1/4" for the drive sprockets, and drilled a 1/4" hole in the other end to slip over the ring gear axle. The large bevel gears were attached to the axle shafts with some loctite retaining compound.
(https://s5.postimg.org/j9qxjlqmf/IMG_9606.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/x4p822l1j/IMG_9607.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/r51gyf093/IMG_9608.jpg)

All turns freely, next up will be the frame and bearing blocks that hold the differential unit to the bottom of the main frame.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 09, 2017, 11:43:26 PM
No updates for a couple of days, we had a big wind storm, just got power back here. Some progress on the differential plate though, pics later. One other nice thing about the Sherlines, they draw just a little power so the generator was able to power the shop as well as the rest of the house.
No damage here, but many huge trees and power poles down around town.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on March 10, 2017, 12:33:54 AM
Hope you didn't suffer any damage Chris. Power outage is inconvenient but with a generator even that is tolerable.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 10, 2017, 01:10:07 AM
Hope you didn't suffer any damage Chris. Power outage is inconvenient but with a generator even that is tolerable.

I wouldn't worry much about Chris. He's got elves.
We need to figure out how he's able to retain such good elves. What are we doing wrong?
Seems' like all the elves and gnomes we have are into stealing and gas lighting us.

Seriously though...glad you didn't have damage and hope the same for your neighbors.

Note the question. What are we doing wrong? Not...what is he doing right?

Those gears look insanely good.

@Kerrin...if we continue watching...we'll continue being duped.  ;D
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 10, 2017, 01:27:48 AM
Hope you didn't suffer any damage Chris. Power outage is inconvenient but with a generator even that is tolerable.

Bill
No damage here, I had taken out the row of giant pine trees behind the house two years ago, good thing since pines were uprooting all over town. A row of power poles near here that they replaced after the wind storm two weeks ago all broke again today! About 150000 houses with no power here, couple of the towns north of here are under states of emergency, stuff down everywhere.
My generator paid for itself yet again!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 10, 2017, 01:31:17 AM
Hope you didn't suffer any damage Chris. Power outage is inconvenient but with a generator even that is tolerable.

I wouldn't worry much about Chris. He's got elves.
We need to figure out how he's able to retain such good elves. What are we doing wrong?
Seems' like all the elves and gnomes we have are into stealing and gas lighting us.

Seriously though...glad you didn't have damage and hope the same for your neighbors.

Note the question. What are we doing wrong? Not...what is he doing right?

Those gears look insanely good.

@Kerrin...if we continue watching...we'll continue being duped.  ;D


Two secrets.
1 mint chocolate chip cookies
2 I look a bit like an elf, short, full beard, heavy set. They think I am on of them.


Okay, three things, shops full of fun tools on both floors and in basement.
Oh, four things, a steam train layout in the basement for them to play with!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 10, 2017, 01:34:43 AM
Oh, four things, a steam train layout in the basement for them to play with!

Time for pics dude.
No. Not pics. It's movie time!!!

How many other secrets do you have? No. Don't answer that. Could lead to a TV special.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 10, 2017, 01:36:47 AM
Oh, four things, a steam train layout in the basement for them to play with!

Time for pics dude.
No. Not pics. It's movie time!!!

How many other secrets do you have? No. Don't answer that. Could lead to a TV special.
I'm still under a nondisclosure agreement from my days in Santa's workshop, can't say anything more....
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 10, 2017, 01:40:43 AM
Oh, four things, a steam train layout in the basement for them to play with!

Time for pics dude.
No. Not pics. It's movie time!!!

How many other secrets do you have? No. Don't answer that. Could lead to a TV special.

I'm still under a nondisclosure agreement from my days in Santa's workshop, can't say anything more....

In which case..you've violated it already.  ;D
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 10, 2017, 01:50:30 AM
Oh, four things, a steam train layout in the basement for them to play with!

Time for pics dude.
No. Not pics. It's movie time!!!

How many other secrets do you have? No. Don't answer that. Could lead to a TV special.

I'm still under a nondisclosure agreement from my days in Santa's workshop, can't say anything more....

In which case..you've violated it already.  ;D
Sigh.


Now I have to call in the ninja reindeer assassin squad on you...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 10, 2017, 01:57:57 AM
Oh, four things, a steam train layout in the basement for them to play with!

Time for pics dude.
No. Not pics. It's movie time!!!

How many other secrets do you have? No. Don't answer that. Could lead to a TV special.

I'm still under a nondisclosure agreement from my days in Santa's workshop, can't say anything more....

In which case..you've violated it already.  ;D
Sigh.


Now I have to call in the ninja reindeer assassin squad on you...

Now for that...I have repellent.
Wait...lemme check the expiration date...

Yep. Still good.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 10, 2017, 02:00:24 AM
Oh, four things, a steam train layout in the basement for them to play with!

Time for pics dude.
No. Not pics. It's movie time!!!

How many other secrets do you have? No. Don't answer that. Could lead to a TV special.

I'm still under a nondisclosure agreement from my days in Santa's workshop, can't say anything more....

In which case..you've violated it already.  ;D
Sigh.


Now I have to call in the ninja reindeer assassin squad on you...

Now for that...I have repellent.
Wait...lemme check the expiration date...

Yep. Still good.
Pump action Ithaca? Very long shelf life...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 10, 2017, 02:20:39 AM
Oh, and I'll try and dig up some pics of the shops soon...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 10, 2017, 08:30:24 PM
The differential mounting plate is still in the works, nothing done on it today (yet) since I've been playing on the computer updating the plan to match the plate (decided on some changes as I was building it), and designing up the crankshaft assembly which will sit on top of it.
Here is a rendering of it:
(https://s5.postimg.org/b2a87g2iv/Engine_Bed_v58.jpg)
The bearing blocks for the crankshaft are different than any I've done before, they had the seam between the upper and lower blocks at a 45 degree angle, which makes sense for how the stresses are from the con rods. The center of the shaft where it goes through the drive gear is thicker than at the ends, and there are two sets of eccentrics inboard of the bearing blocks, one for each cylinder. The crank pins are mounted in discs at the outside, so those will be simple to make. There are a couple of balancing slots in the discs that I have not drawn in yet.

So, later on back into the shop to finish up the mounting plate, and start on the differential bearing blocks... Pics to follow later today or tomorrow.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 10, 2017, 11:08:20 PM
Okay, time to get caught up after all the fun with the wind storm and power outages. Still about 80000 homes without power near here, they got one neighborhood back up, but the wires off the new poles were too low and a truck took out the wires and the poles again. Oh @#$@#$!
  :zap:

Anyway, here is what I got done, half under generator power:

I did not have any 1/8" stock wide enough, so the mounting plate was made in two pieces, held together by the framework that simulates the stiffening ridge in the casting on the original. First step was to lay out the part on some 1/8"x2" bar stock, along with the start of the frame out of some smaller stock:
(https://s5.postimg.org/hlnnal4av/IMG_9610.jpg)
Rough cut out the stock,
(https://s5.postimg.org/vglxt1ypz/IMG_9611.jpg)
and milled out the shape of the frame pieces that will straddle the joint, first the center section:
(https://s5.postimg.org/oeo06uv47/IMG_9612.jpg)
and then the ends
(https://s5.postimg.org/n0wdbjvuv/IMG_9613.jpg)
leaving it ready to clamp together for drilling the holes:
(https://s5.postimg.org/5p0m3urrb/IMG_9614.jpg)
With it clamped together, and clamped to a spacer block to protect the mill table, drilled the holes for bolts to hold it together for silver soldering:
(https://s5.postimg.org/m1antl62v/IMG_9616.jpg)
Also made up the extensions to finish the framework, bolted it all up with some round head screws (these are just for soldering, the heads and extra shanks will be milled off). After silver soldering the framework to the plates, and cleaning up the flux residue, I clamped it down to the mill again and milled the edges of the plates clean and to size.
(https://s5.postimg.org/4cix1yubr/IMG_9618.jpg)
Then re-laid out the openings to get ready for cutting them:
(https://s5.postimg.org/gsfmvpnnr/IMG_9620.jpg)
and started drilling holes at the corners of all the openings. These holes will form the arcs at the corners of the openings.
(https://s5.postimg.org/z9a1mj3lz/IMG_9621.jpg)
Then back with the end mill and started cutting out the openings, starting with the horizontal long ones,
(https://s5.postimg.org/6xohphjpj/IMG_9623.jpg)
and continuing on with the shorter ones on the big opening,
(https://s5.postimg.org/5wo90d2pz/IMG_9624.jpg)
before angling the plate to do the angled ends on the small openings
(https://s5.postimg.org/fihtgntvr/IMG_9625.jpg)
and then milling off the screw heads and the shanks sticking out the other side
(https://s5.postimg.org/962o6tqtj/IMG_9626.jpg)
After a little cleanup of burs with the sander and a file, the plate is ready for bearing blocks:
(https://s5.postimg.org/ju6f5o0sn/IMG_9629.jpg)
Will continue with the bearing blocks next time...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on March 10, 2017, 11:19:39 PM
You made quick work of that Chris. Amazing what you can get done when you and Zee aren't talking cookies, gnomes and ninja assassins  :lolb:  Sounds like you got your power back though, that is a good thing.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on March 10, 2017, 11:37:32 PM
Exactly what Bill said.

Chris, you must be turbo powered.  Man you work fast!

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 11, 2017, 12:32:43 AM
Amazing what you can get done when you and Zee aren't talking cookies, gnomes and ninja assassins

Pffft. He's got a shop. With helpers.
I just have an empty room.
A great big nothing.
And not that big.

Until that room becomes a shop...I can only distract.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 11, 2017, 12:35:20 AM
It was not that fast, was done over the last several days. That is another nice thing about small machines like the Sherlines, they don't draw much so I could run the shop with the generator without overloading it, along with furnace, fridge, lights.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 11, 2017, 12:38:18 AM
Amazing what you can get done when you and Zee aren't talking cookies, gnomes and ninja assassins

Pffft. He's got a shop. With helpers.
I just have an empty room.
A great big nothing.
And not that big.

Until that room becomes a shop...I can only distract.
Pffftttt! Not one shop. Four shops!  Pffftttt!   8)


And cookies. Though the stash in the freezer is down to the last bag, will have to do another mass batch soon.  :stir:

Look at it this way: the empty room is just a temporarily less productive shop!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on March 11, 2017, 03:43:30 AM
This is coming out nice Chris. As I watched the differential building process, I've been trying to figure out how you were going to drive it. Really simple when I saw it drawn up!  :Doh:

I've learned a lot watching this build. Now if I can just remember it.  :wallbang:

Lately you all are getting hammered back there, weather wise. Beautiful here today.......got up flying. Rain back tomorrow.  :(

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on March 11, 2017, 05:56:34 AM
Lately you all are getting hammered back there, weather wise. Beautiful here today.......got up flying. Rain back tomorrow.  :(
What?  Back to rain again tomorrow?  They give us ONE day where its not pouring and then back to rain again...  I'll be ready for a bit of dry soon.  I don't even require sun.  Just not pouring rain would be fun :)

Chris, love watching your fabrication work.  That is really neat looking, and I am going to have to do something like this someday.  Maybe without tracks.  Or who knows, maybe with! (if you sign the copy of your book for me, then I'll definitely build one with tracks :)).
KIM
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 11, 2017, 12:11:24 PM
This is coming out nice Chris. As I watched the differential building process, I've been trying to figure out how you were going to drive it. Really simple when I saw it drawn up!  :Doh:

I've learned a lot watching this build. Now if I can just remember it.  :wallbang:

Lately you all are getting hammered back there, weather wise. Beautiful here today.......got up flying. Rain back tomorrow.  :(

Jim
Thanks Jim, am very happy with how the diff is coming out. None of the mechanism is my design, I'm following the original as closely as I can


We got lucky with the weather just after the wind hit, it was above freezing for a couple of days, now the next few are around 10 F, nasty for those still waiting for power. They are claiming that most will be back by Sunday night. Generators have been selling by the truckload.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 11, 2017, 12:12:03 PM
Lately you all are getting hammered back there, weather wise. Beautiful here today.......got up flying. Rain back tomorrow.  :(
What?  Back to rain again tomorrow?  They give us ONE day where its not pouring and then back to rain again...  I'll be ready for a bit of dry soon.  I don't even require sun.  Just not pouring rain would be fun :)

Chris, love watching your fabrication work.  That is really neat looking, and I am going to have to do something like this someday.  Maybe without tracks.  Or who knows, maybe with! (if you sign the copy of your book for me, then I'll definitely build one with tracks :) ).
KIM
Deal!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 11, 2017, 10:45:48 PM
Hey Bill/etc, those with Sherline lathes:
While making up a stern cone fitting for an RC submarine, I needed to use the boring bar on the compound slide to turn the inner surface of the cone. Turns out, the way the compound is designed for turning on the back side and with no hieght adjustment, the bar was way too high up since it is not a normal 1/4" cutter. So,
whipped up this little adapter:
(https://s5.postimg.org/u4dnyvy6f/IMG_9644.jpg)
so I could turn with the bar in the compound slide:
(https://s5.postimg.org/4x2rymv2f/IMG_9640.jpg)
Very simple adapter, something to keep in mind if you ever need it.


Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 12, 2017, 12:53:21 AM
Nice idea on the adaptor.

It's often too easy to get stuck looking at a tree and not the forest.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 12, 2017, 01:11:50 AM
Nice idea on the adaptor.

It's often too easy to get stuck looking at a tree and not the forest.
Thanks. I would SO love to spend some time in Sherlines back room with some of their engineers. So many little things that could be upgraded and improved at no cost.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Walsheng on March 12, 2017, 02:37:56 AM
Nice idea on the adaptor.

It's often too easy to get stuck looking at a tree and not the forest.
Thanks. I would SO love to spend some time in Sherlines back room with some of their engineers. So many little things that could be upgraded and improved at no cost.

Wasn't Sherline set up at Names last year?  Maybe a Sunday afternoon conversation with them!

John
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on March 12, 2017, 02:45:07 AM
Chris, I have the compound as well and it does work but it is not one of the better thought out accessories. No height adjustment as you note, but also the lack of any type gib, and it will move some vertically when cutting. I find it rather loose overall. Nice work on the adapter though!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 13, 2017, 09:04:55 PM
The last day or so has not seen much done on the hauler, been working on one of the RC submarines instead. Today I did spend the afternoon modelling up more of the engine. Last time I got up through the crankshaft, today was all spent on the stephenson linkages and all the control rods and brackets. LOTS of parts there!
Here is a rendering of it:
(https://s5.postimg.org/b2a87g2iv/Engine_Bed_v58.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 14, 2017, 08:19:22 PM
Okay, shifted gears today ( :facepalm: ) and got back to the differential bearing blocks.

Started with two lengths of square bar in the mill vise, long enough to get all four block sets out of, spot drilled
(https://s5.postimg.org/49uwkri87/IMG_9672.jpg)
and drilled
(https://s5.postimg.org/t4eeeu32f/IMG_9674.jpg)
for the mounting bolts, then drilled clearance size through the top bar only
(https://s5.postimg.org/6tqjev5s7/IMG_9677.jpg)
and then bolted the bars together and stamped a number on each half to keep the pairs together later on. They should be all the same, but I didn't do this on an engine once, they had a little variance (always do), and got mixed up. Was a royal pain to try the combinations till it ran smooth again.
(https://s5.postimg.org/3o5xonn5z/IMG_9679.jpg)
For the bearings, started with some bearing bronze rod, drilled
(https://s5.postimg.org/vcskw6a6f/IMG_9680.jpg)
and bored out to size (I like to bore holes for running shafts, better results than just drilling)
(https://s5.postimg.org/4g8lnurd3/IMG_9681.jpg)
and then turned down the outside to size - it looks thin, but the real ones were too, and this is 1/12th that size.
(https://s5.postimg.org/mkbm8hp1j/IMG_9682.jpg)
Rather than try the parting tool, which I was worried might bend the thin walls, I used the turning tool to mark the lengths of the bearings
(https://s5.postimg.org/yngxw203r/IMG_9684.jpg)
and then used a small thin hacksaw to part them off while turning.
(https://s5.postimg.org/cct2w32tj/IMG_9685.jpg)
Just left a small bur that a file knocked off pretty quick. Here is a test fit on the half shaft:
(https://s5.postimg.org/hphxa7qpz/IMG_9686.jpg)
The bearing blocks were then turned sideways in the mill vise, and starter holes were drilled and then got out the boring head to take them up to match the bearings
(https://s5.postimg.org/duj4ldwxz/IMG_9687.jpg)
Here the holes are done, you can see one of the bearings slipped into the hole on the left
(https://s5.postimg.org/gpw7s90xz/IMG_9688.jpg)
Next up will be to saw the blocks apart, and then clean up the ends with the mill. After that, it will be time to drill the holes in the mounting plate and get the bearings in place.
The last things to do on the differential will be to get it mounted to the engine bed rails, and also I need to make the sheet metal cover that hides all that nice gear work...   :hellno:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 14, 2017, 09:14:43 PM
Was using the turning tool to mark the bearings in order to provide a starting point for the hacksaw?
How did you account for the width of the hacksaw?

 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 14, 2017, 09:25:59 PM
Was using the turning tool to mark the bearings in order to provide a starting point for the hacksaw?
How did you account for the width of the hacksaw?

 :popcorn:
Exactly. It gave an indent for the blade to ride in without skating. The width was not critical, I filed them smooth and to width. The tool mark was about the width of the blade, which was dumb luck.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 14, 2017, 09:49:34 PM
Was using the turning tool to mark the bearings in order to provide a starting point for the hacksaw?
How did you account for the width of the hacksaw?

 :popcorn:
Exactly. It gave an indent for the blade to ride in without skating. The width was not critical, I filed them smooth and to width. The tool mark was about the width of the blade, which was dumb luck.

Shhhhhh. It is always by design.

I have two many rules at work:

1) First see if the bug can be made a feature.
2) Answer all why questions with 'by design'.

 :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 14, 2017, 10:30:20 PM
Was using the turning tool to mark the bearings in order to provide a starting point for the hacksaw?
How did you account for the width of the hacksaw?

 :popcorn:
Exactly. It gave an indent for the blade to ride in without skating. The width was not critical, I filed them smooth and to width. The tool mark was about the width of the blade, which was dumb luck.

Shhhhhh. It is always by design.

I have two many rules at work:

1) First see if the bug can be made a feature.
2) Answer all why questions with 'by design'.

 :lolb:
My first real boat (a wonderful 12' Whitehall row/sailboat, built by Shew and Burnham in Maine), was named 'Dumb Luck'.

And on the one project we did with Java as the main engine, we called everything a 'Java bug, we can't fix that'.  :atcomputer:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 14, 2017, 10:49:33 PM
Was using the turning tool to mark the bearings in order to provide a starting point for the hacksaw?
How did you account for the width of the hacksaw?

 :popcorn:
Exactly. It gave an indent for the blade to ride in without skating. The width was not critical, I filed them smooth and to width. The tool mark was about the width of the blade, which was dumb luck.

Shhhhhh. It is always by design.

I have two many rules at work:

1) First see if the bug can be made a feature.
2) Answer all why questions with 'by design'.

 :lolb:
My first real boat (a wonderful 12' Whitehall row/sailboat, built by Shew and Burnham in Maine), was named 'Dumb Luck'.

And on the one project we did with Java as the main engine, we called everything a 'Java bug, we can't fix that'.  :atcomputer:

Another rule of mine...if it's not my bug...it's a bug.  ;D

Ah...to be fair...I'm where I am with a wonderful family out of sheer dumb luck (as well as on some by design on her part).
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 15, 2017, 08:47:24 PM
Catching up on the differential plate, got the mounting holes drilled for the bearing blocks:
(https://s5.postimg.org/4j1o269s7/IMG_9689.jpg)
all ran nice and smooth, so did a test fit to the engine bed rails:
(https://s5.postimg.org/4x301rtvr/IMG_9693.jpg)
and then the whole assembly onto the main rails.
(https://s5.postimg.org/t3i8qn5dz/IMG_9697.jpg)
The assembly will be on/off a number of times as the rest of the engine is made. Next I am going to get the drive chains adjusted to length - looks like I need to add a few more of the spare links that I had made (left them a little short, easier to add more than to grind off cross pin heads and remove them).
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 15, 2017, 09:20:33 PM
all ran nice and smooth

Were you surprised? I wasn't.  ;D
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: RonGinger on March 15, 2017, 09:21:42 PM
Quote
My first real boat (a wonderful 12' Whitehall row/sailboat, built by Shew and Burnham in Maine), was named 'Dumb Luck'.

Wow, I could tell you have good taste. Dick Shew and Cecil Burnham are two of my best friends. I've known them since about 1978. I helped build their boat shop, and on more recent boats I make the brass tags with the Coast Guard required data. Sadly, they are getting pretty old now, Dick still works in the shop, but mostly in the vein of puttering. Cecil still builds a few skiffs each year for the local fishermen, and repairs some of the  whitehalls.

You should see their tug boat- about 26 feet of the finest kind. It has a feathering prop, behind a GM 6-71 diesel, turned by a coupling I made. Two pieces of durabar cast iron 6" diameter, weighed 36 pounds to start, yielded an 18 pound part.

That photo of the differential on the main rails is just outstanding. Amazing work.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 15, 2017, 09:42:43 PM
Quote
My first real boat (a wonderful 12' Whitehall row/sailboat, built by Shew and Burnham in Maine), was named 'Dumb Luck'.

Wow, I could tell you have good taste. Dick Shew and Cecil Burnham are two of my best friends. I've known them since about 1978. I helped build their boat shop, and on more recent boats I make the brass tags with the Coast Guard required data. Sadly, they are getting pretty old now, Dick still works in the shop, but mostly in the vein of puttering. Cecil still builds a few skiffs each year for the local fishermen, and repairs some of the  whitehalls.

You should see their tug boat- about 26 feet of the finest kind. It has a feathering prop, behind a GM 6-71 diesel, turned by a coupling I made. Two pieces of durabar cast iron 6" diameter, weighed 36 pounds to start, yielded an 18 pound part.

That photo of the differential on the main rails is just outstanding. Amazing work.
Wow! Small world! That Whitehall was a whole lot of fun, wound up selling it years later when I started building full size boats myself. Last I knew it was at a cottage down on Seneca lake, kept indoors in a boathouse. Beautiful boat!
Say hello to them from a past, very satisfied customer!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on March 15, 2017, 10:44:32 PM
I hate to sound like a broken record...I love this thing.  Great job Chris.

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 15, 2017, 11:14:36 PM
I hate to sound like a broken record...I love this thing.  Great job Chris.

-Bob
Thanks Bob!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on March 16, 2017, 12:32:34 AM
Amazing progress Chris, everything looks great!

Dave
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 17, 2017, 04:08:37 PM
Thanks Dave!

Not much to report today, been alternating time between work on the RC boats and getting the drive chains finished off. Got both of them fit for length, and the first one is moving fine. The second one kept sticking at one point around the small sprocket, tracked it down to a pair of link bars that were a little too short between the holes, either the drill slipped on that set or I miscounted turns on the mill table (more likely). So just need to file off the pin heads on those and replace them with proper ones....

One other fun arrival: one of the excellent folks I have been corresponding with up in Maine about the hauler sent me a big file with a copy of the plans for a 20hp Stanley Steamer automobile engine. Would make a wonderful scaled down model, may be a future project in it! Rather than fondling castings like Jo, I tend to collect plans and try not to drool on them too much...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: kvom on March 17, 2017, 07:34:54 PM
The HP of the Stanley Steamer engine was limited in practice by the pressure and volume of steam available from a car's boiler.  From http://www.stanleymotorcarriage.com/SteamEngine/SteamEngine.htm

In reality Stanley steam engines had the capability to produce a lot more horsepower than the horsepower rating of the boiler.  A 20-horsepower engine could develop approximately 125 horsepower.  The problem arises with the engine developing 125 horsepower the boiler is required to generate a large volume of 550 PSIG steam pressure continuously.  Unfortunately the boiler isn't capable of generating this volume of steam and thus the horsepower of the engine drops off as the steam pressure from the boiler drops.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 17, 2017, 10:11:58 PM
Rather than fondling castings like Jo, I tend to collect plans and try not to drool on them too much...

fondling vs collecting  :thinking:

Keep in mind she does both. I'm betting you do as well. Collect the plans and fondle pore over them.

I do the same.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 17, 2017, 10:44:22 PM
Rather than fondling castings like Jo, I tend to collect plans and try not to drool on them too much...

fondling vs collecting  :thinking:

Keep in mind she does both. I'm betting you do as well. Collect the plans and fondle pore over them.

I do the same.
Its very different. Plsns are lighter weight!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on March 18, 2017, 12:39:10 AM
I am still following along Chris, just haven't commented in a few days. The differential and its mount look wonderful. You are outdoing yourself and that ain't easy to do :)

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 18, 2017, 12:49:56 AM
I am still following along Chris, just haven't commented in a few days. The differential and its mount look wonderful. You are outdoing yourself and that ain't easy to do :)

Bill

Thanks Bill!

I've been alternating time with the boats and the drive chains, got the second one adjusted to length with the replaced (correct length) few links that were causing a problem, gave it all a spin, and found a few links on the first side that were meshing right but they have some sticky spots, so am having to do some filing fettling and fussing with them now. Not that surprising with a one-off small chain, but it gets old quick and I wander off to do something else! Probably another session should do it, and will get started on the crankshaft assembly soon....

And one of you guys needs to build one of the gas-powered versions of the Lombard (the gas version took over from steam sometime in the 20's I think), with one of your Tiny IC engines!!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on March 18, 2017, 01:05:20 AM
Yeah but imagine how TINY all those chain links would be and the differential would look more like a watch I bet.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 18, 2017, 01:16:45 AM
Yeah but imagine how TINY all those chain links would be and the differential would look more like a watch I bet.

Bill
Well, yeah. Thats why I suggested that someone else build it!!   :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: RonGinger on March 19, 2017, 01:37:15 PM
Not really- the gas Lombard is as big as the steamer. There is a fully restored one in the Maine State Museum, right next door to the state capitol. And that is just past the 1849 LION locomotive- one that I think desperately needs to be modeled. I started it, but in G scale it became watchmakers work and I quit. My start is at http://pleasantcovemodels.com/lion.htm (http://pleasantcovemodels.com/lion.htm)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 19, 2017, 04:39:18 PM
Not really- the gas Lombard is as big as the steamer. There is a fully restored one in the Maine State Museum, right next door to the state capitol. And that is just past the 1849 LION locomotive- one that I think desperately needs to be modeled. I started it, but in G scale it became watchmakers work and I quit. My start is at http://pleasantcovemodels.com/lion.htm (http://pleasantcovemodels.com/lion.htm)
I was not aware of that museum, will be going past there on the trip this spring, will stop in, Thanks!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 19, 2017, 04:44:31 PM
And I know, I keep saying I am about to start on the crankshaft, but I decided it would be best to finish up the 3D model of the engine as a whole before starting on its parts, in case I need to move anything for alignment of all the shafts and levers. So, today I spent some time getting the cylinder assembly modelled up, got the one on the left side nearly done, just need to put in the valve slider/rods, and make up the connecting rod parts. Then it will be copied/mirrored to the right side engine bed. Here is a rendering of where it is at right now:
(https://s5.postimg.org/b2a87g2iv/Engine_Bed_v58.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on March 19, 2017, 05:16:53 PM
Chris, I am enjoying your thread more than any other on all of the forums I attend. You are getting very handy with your 3D modelling skills.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 20, 2017, 09:42:27 PM
Thanks Brian!  I know I am just scratching the surface of what the package is capable of, but I just need it for the modelling and plans output. It has made this model possible though, I'd still be working out the tracks without it.

Today I got more on the engine done, got the crosshead and connecting rod designed up:
(https://s5.postimg.org/b2a87g2iv/Engine_Bed_v58.jpg)
Had to simplify the shape of the crosshead just a little, given the scaling down in size that is not unexpected. The general appearance is still matching.
I've been wanting to try a full wedged con rod assembly in a model, looks like this is my chance, they used a wedged strap at both ends of the con rod.
Still need to put in the valve rod/slider and the steam passages, and I can copy the cylinder/etc over to the other side of the model and generate the plans. Going to be a bunch of sheets for this one...

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 21, 2017, 12:36:40 AM
Over on Gail's thread we were discussing gear cutting, and Dan mentioned the book Gear Cutting Simplified from Industrial Press. Just got my copy, terrific reference book, makes a great addition to the Ivan Law book. It lays out ghe terms and formulas much better than Law does, where Law gives more background info.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on March 21, 2017, 02:00:26 AM
Over on Gail's thread we were discussing gear cutting, and Dan mentioned the book Gear Cutting Simplified from Industrial Press. Just got my copy, terrific reference book, makes a great addition to the Ivan Law book. It lays out ghe terms and formulas much better than Law does, where Law gives more background info.

Couldn't find a book called "Gear Cutting Simplified"  :atcomputer: so went over to Gail's thread and it looks like it's called "Gear Design Simplified". Sounds like a good book. I've got Ivan Law's book..........just need to spend more time with it. What I actually need is a copy of "Gear Cutting for Dummies"!  :Lol: Of course there's no substitute for coming up with a need and then just dive in and do it.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 21, 2017, 02:18:40 AM
Over on Gail's thread we were discussing gear cutting, and Dan mentioned the book Gear Cutting Simplified from Industrial Press. Just got my copy, terrific reference book, makes a great addition to the Ivan Law book. It lays out ghe terms and formulas much better than Law does, where Law gives more background info.

Couldn't find a book called "Gear Cutting Simplified"  :atcomputer: so went over to Gail's thread and it looks like it's called "Gear Design Simplified". Sounds like a good book. I've got Ivan Law's book..........just need to spend more time with it. What I actually need is a copy of "Gear Cutting for Dummies"!  :Lol: Of course there's no substitute for coming up with a need and then just dive in and do it.

Jim
Whoops! You are right, it is Gear DESIGN Simplified.


Sorry about that, acute case of Brainus Fartus!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 21, 2017, 05:07:26 PM
Finally got the last of the engine parts modelled up in 3D:
(https://s5.postimg.org/b2a87g2iv/Engine_Bed_v58.jpg)
and same pic in pez-dispenser colors to see all the different  parts easier
(https://s5.postimg.org/b2a87g2iv/Engine_Bed_v58.jpg)
Now that I know everything will fit together and clear each other, I can make up the 2D blueprints from that model and start in on the crankshaft assembly. Back to the shop!
  :cartwheel:

Well, tomorrow, anyway. I have other stuff going on the rest of today.  :ShakeHead:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on March 21, 2017, 06:17:11 PM
Chris--I get a lot of ribbing about the "living color" I use with my models. I do it because it makes the individual components so much easier to see.--Brian
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 21, 2017, 06:21:32 PM
Chris--I get a lot of ribbing about the "living color" I use with my models. I do it because it makes the individual components so much easier to see.--Brian
It does help, in one color things things are just blobs.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on March 21, 2017, 08:07:22 PM
Chris-

An ironic  thread about machining the bevel gears for a Lombard restoration over at PM:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/machining-bevel-gears-332469/?s=982f369009d6d1f6aa251517a2b5c5fd

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 21, 2017, 08:53:30 PM
Chris-

An ironic  thread about machining the bevel gears for a Lombard restoration over at PM:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/machining-bevel-gears-332469/?s=982f369009d6d1f6aa251517a2b5c5fd (http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/machining-bevel-gears-332469/?s=982f369009d6d1f6aa251517a2b5c5fd)

-Bob
Sounds like as much confusion on making model ones as full size ones! They got all wrapped around the pole confusing straight form and gleason form teeth.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: steam guy willy on March 21, 2017, 08:59:55 PM
Chris--I get a lot of ribbing about the "living color" I use with my models. I do it because it makes the individual components so much easier to see.--Brian
It does help, in one color things things are just blobs.


Hi, may i ask why the furthest away parts look bigger than the nearest parts ?? is it the colour?? intriguing
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 21, 2017, 09:29:09 PM
Chris--I get a lot of ribbing about the "living color" I use with my models. I do it because it makes the individual components so much easier to see.--Brian
It does help, in one color things things are just blobs.


Hi, may i ask why the furthest away parts look bigger than the nearest parts ?? is it the colour?? intriguing
It is interesting how color effects perceptions, the farther cylinder is lighter, so has less shadow effect to your eye. Also it has the mounting flange showing, also light, which makes it look larger. I used to work with a lot of image scientist types, who would be able to talk for hours on perception effects and optical dillusions.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on March 22, 2017, 01:57:03 AM
Chris--I get a lot of ribbing about the "living color" I use with my models. I do it because it makes the individual components so much easier to see.--Brian
It does help, in one color things things are just blobs.


Hi, may i ask why the furthest away parts look bigger than the nearest parts ?? is it the colour?? intriguing


It is interesting how color effects perceptions, the farther cylinder is lighter, so has less shadow effect to your eye. Also it has the mounting flange showing, also light, which makes it look larger. I used to work with a lot of image scientist types, who would be able to talk for hours on perception effects and optical dillusions.

I thought that same thing until I started using the grid lines for reference...............interesting!

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on March 22, 2017, 03:57:26 AM
The CAD drawing does not have any perspective to it. That messes with the mind unless you are used to that view.

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: MJM460 on March 22, 2017, 10:41:37 AM
It's called an isometric projection.  Three axes at 120 degrees.  All measurements show as true length parallel to one of the axes.  Easy to handle on the drawing board for a scale representation in 3-D.

Parallel lines stay parallel rather than converging at a horizon, but an always be measured.  Not like a perspective drawing.  Distant parts appear to be over size as we normally see with a perspective view where parallel lines converge at the horizon.  As Pete says, it tends to look a little strange until you are used to it, but it is useful when it is desirable to show at scale rather than just an artistic presentation.  Obviously both have their places.

I always enjoy looking in on the inspiring work on this model, thank you Chris for your trouble in writing it up so well for us all to follow and enjoy.

MJM460
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: steam guy willy on March 22, 2017, 12:26:35 PM
It's called an isometric projection.  Three axes at 120 degrees.  All measurements show as true length parallel to one of the axes.  Easy to handle on the drawing board for a scale representation in 3-D.

Parallel lines stay parallel rather than converging at a horizon, but an always be measured.  Not like a perspective drawing.  Distant parts appear to be over size as we normally see with a perspective view where parallel lines converge at the horizon.  As Pete says, it tends to look a little strange until you are used to it, but it is useful when it is desirable to show at scale rather than just an artistic presentation.  Obviously both have their places.

I always enjoy looking in on the inspiring work on this model, thank you Chris for your trouble in writing it up so well for us all to follow and enjoy.

MJM460

Thanks for the info I did wonder if it was isometric ,perspective ,trompe d'lol or just good old  "should have gone to specksavers"   and i have now cancelled my appointment to Specksavers  !!! Its a good job that cad doesn't work to Pespective although it might introduce some extra realism to our models !!

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: ShopShoe on March 22, 2017, 12:38:12 PM
Getting OT, but one more observation.

Us engineering types tend to have our own way of understanding, perhaps because we can visualize the perspective or whatever else the general viewer may not see.

A few years ago my wife and I were at a museum of Navy and Military artifacts from WWII, and she was looking at a display of field radios: Marveling at what was "portable" in those days. She kept wanting me to come look at the display, but I was being entertained by the schematics of some of the radios that were displayed nearby.

--ShopShoe
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on March 22, 2017, 12:38:58 PM
Chris--I have always been faintly interested in Stephenson reversing links. Not enough to really pay close attention to them.--Just enough to think, "Gee, that's rather neat." After seeing the ones in your 3d model, I went on an "in depth search" about them and even downloaded a 3d model from "Grabcad" to follow the workings a little more closely. Very interesting mechanism.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 22, 2017, 12:58:41 PM
Chris--I have always been faintly interested in Stephenson reversing links. Not enough to really pay close attention to them.--Just enough to think, "Gee, that's rather neat." After seeing the ones in your 3d model, I went on an "in depth search" about them and even downloaded a 3d model from "Grabcad" to follow the workings a little more closely. Very interesting mechanism.---Brian
One of the interesting things about that linkage is that they did not just run them at one end or the other. By coming in slightly from full travel, it reduces the travel on the valve, which changes the amount of steam inlet on each stroke. The farther you move in, the more that effect, until towards the middle of the travel you are not moving the valve at all. This gave some control of power vs steam used, sort of an early version of what the Corliss valve cutoff controls allow in much better form. Neat stuff.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Dan Rowe on March 22, 2017, 02:26:59 PM
Chris-

An ironic  thread about machining the bevel gears for a Lombard restoration over at PM:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/machining-bevel-gears-332469/?s=982f369009d6d1f6aa251517a2b5c5fd (http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/machining-bevel-gears-332469/?s=982f369009d6d1f6aa251517a2b5c5fd)

-Bob
Sounds like as much confusion on making model ones as full size ones! They got all wrapped around the pole confusing straight form and gleason form teeth.
 :cheers:

Chris,
You have the simpler task as you are simply making a whole set of parallel depth gears. The problem with gears made before the AGMA was formed in 1916 is there were a bunch of gear standards and the ratio of the addendum and the dedendum was not standard. This fact makes it hard to match a gear set with no easy way I know of to determine the correct specifications of the existing gear the guy is trying to match.

Dan
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: kvom on March 22, 2017, 05:05:43 PM
In looking at your model, I am wondering how motion of the eccentric straps get transmitted to the levers with the valve rod.  Certainly an interesting setup.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 22, 2017, 06:17:51 PM
In looking at your model, I am wondering how motion of the eccentric straps get transmitted to the levers with the valve rod.  Certainly an interesting setup.

Its a little hard to see in that view of the model. The rods from the eccentrics go forward to a lever below the line of the piston, making a lever up above move that moves the valve rod in and out. I think they had to put in this extra lever to get the moving parts of the Stephenson linkage down lower, so it would not hit the bottom of the boiler when in the full up position. This lever is called a rocker arm in the diagrams I have seen.

Here is another view, isolating out the valve components for one cylinder. With everything visible, it is tough to tell whats what, there is so much packed into a small space.
(https://s5.postimg.org/b2a87g2iv/Engine_Bed_v58.jpg)
Okay, so the normal Stephenson linkage is there, with a set of eccentrics running up to the link bar, with a slot that lets is slide back and forth under control of the link from the control rod, which has a linkage up to the reversing lever in the cab.
The difference with this setup is that instead of the follower in the slot of the link bar being on the end of the valve rod directly, there is a pair of rocker arms in between. The two rocker arms are connected so they move together.

Hope that helps!

One thing I noticed on the original is that the joint from the upper rocker arm to the valve rod has no intermediate con-rod type link to it, so it does not allow for up/down movement as the rocker arm rocks. I am guessing that it was not needed since the movement is so short, so the up/down motion is very slight? Something I want to wiggle directly when I am there.

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 22, 2017, 08:37:40 PM
Finally back to cutting metal on the Hauler!   :cartwheel:

Started with a length of 1/2" stainless bar for the crankshaft, trued up the ends and drilled a center hole for the live center, and trimmed the ends down to 3/8" diameter, first one end
(https://s5.postimg.org/8auja7evb/IMG_9706.jpg)
then the other - note that with the Sherline the smaller diameter on the first end lets it go much deeper into the chuck.
(https://s5.postimg.org/9eenm5zif/IMG_9707.jpg)
Then got out the compound slide, set it to 14 degrees, and cut the tapered portions where it goes back up to the full 1/2" diameter.
(https://s5.postimg.org/obn4n6cqv/IMG_9708.jpg)
Then took a thin trueing cut down the center portion, taking off about 2 thou, to match the bore on the drive gear, which I had left slightly under 1/2" to allow for this knowing that the bar stock is not always quite a true round.
(https://s5.postimg.org/litx35cef/IMG_9709.jpg)
The gear was then put in place with some Loctite retaining compound. I used the edge of the lathe tool to get it centered, measuring both sides back and forth. Once I had a good position, slid the gear down, applied the loctite, and ran it back against the tool while turning it to spread the goop. Let it set a while till it grabbed then removed it from the lathe.
(https://s5.postimg.org/f6ertb9c7/IMG_9711.jpg)
And here it is sitting in place on the top of the differential gear:
(https://s5.postimg.org/jgtfowefb/IMG_9712.jpg)
Took a measurement under the shaft to the engine bed rails, to doublecheck that the bearing block height that the 3D gave me was still right, and found that the 3D model showed it being higher. Even allowing for the gap for meshing of the gears, it is still a bit off. Not surprising given all the parts involved - gears, bearings, bearing blocks, mounting plates, bed rails, main rails... So, am adjusting the height of the bearing blocks that I will make from the plans to give a proper mesh of the teeth. Starting on the blocks next...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on March 22, 2017, 08:48:29 PM
Your a man after my own heart!!---If the part doesn't match the plan, then change the plan to match the part. Only those people who design in 3d cad and then build the parts they designed know how often that happens!!!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 22, 2017, 09:23:57 PM
Your a man after my own heart!!---If the part doesn't match the plan, then change the plan to match the part. Only those people who design in 3d cad and then build the parts they designed know how often that happens!!!

Isn't that why they invented shims and sandpaper?!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 22, 2017, 09:48:31 PM
Your a man after my own heart!!---If the part doesn't match the plan, then change the plan to match the part. Only those people who design in 3d cad and then build the parts they designed know how often that happens!!!

Isn't that why they invented shims and sandpaper?!

Yes. As well as alternative rulers.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on March 23, 2017, 01:51:30 AM
I bet you were glad to get back to cutting metal. I like the clever use of the lathe tool to register where the gear needed to go on the shaft. Filed that one away.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 23, 2017, 01:57:08 AM