Model Engine Maker

Engines => From Kits/Castings => Topic started by: Manorfarmdenton on January 23, 2016, 04:49:36 PM

Title: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on January 23, 2016, 04:49:36 PM
A while ago I bought on ebay a set of RLE castings with some photo copied drawings, and with the cold weather have finally got round to making a start on them.  Straight away I realised the drawings were so illegible I couldn't read a lot of the dimensions, but JasonB came to the rescue with a better set - and a link to this forum.  Thanks Jason!

One or two things are puzzling me though. 

1.  The drawings suggest adding 1/4" to some dimension if higher compression is required.  Which dimension is this?  I guess its the con rod, but as the drawings are in sections it isn't easy to tell.
2.  My base casting hasn't got any provision for holding-down bolts where it sits on the baseboard or whatever.  Is this usual?
3.  The literature mentions making the rings 5 thou oversize before machining the piston.  I'm not that familiar with ring practice as I bought ready-made ones for my Red Wings, but doesn't that mean they will be distorted out of round when gapped correctly and inserted in a 5 thou smaller bore?  Or am I thinking too much?
4.  The amount of overhang on the exhaust valve push rod is horrible - has anyone else reduced it somehow?  I'm thinking of using a flat bar as in the Red Wings, and adding some cast support nearer the cam.
5.  Has anyone used oilite bushes for the mains?  I'm thinking I can just about work 9/16" OD ones if I make my own bearing caps and squeeze the timing gear back towards the bore a bit.  Is that daft?

Thanks for reading this!  Any input gratefully accepted.  John.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Jasonb on January 23, 2016, 05:11:11 PM
Good to see you found your way here John, Hopefully Graham will be along with some words of wisdom, but in the meantime.

2. You could simply drill and tap the bottom edge of teh base casting and screw up through your base into these holes but its not really how most engines of this type are mounted. If it were me I think I would mill out 4 slots say 5/8 x 5/16 and drill and tap the bottom of the slot. Now mill up a bit of 5/8x 5/16, drill one end 1/4" and round off. At teh other end drill and CSK for a screw. You can now add a bit of JB Weld and scre wthe feer to the base.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Engineering/Jowitt%20MkII/DSC00636_zpsfbz4jjr0.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Engineering/Jowitt%20MkII/DSC00637_zpsgohpilim.jpg)

3. I make my rings a snug fit in the bore before parting off then spread them to heat treat

5. I have done a couple of hit & miss engines that came with oilite bushes supplied and they seem to work fine, they were the flanged type and the flange went on the inside of the bearing housing and up against the crankwebs. Length of bearing trimmed to a few thou longer than the bearing housing to gibe gear/flywheel clearance.

1 & $ I'll come back to you.

J
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on January 23, 2016, 05:30:30 PM
Thanks Jason - good suggestion.  I was wondering about an alternative method, to make up some mounting lugs that fit over the profile of the base casting, and clamp it down that way.  As much as anything I was curious as to why my casting hasn't got lugs when all the photos I have seen show them.  I wonder if I have a very early set?

Oh no - heat treating rings?  That's a bit of an alchemist's trick for an old agricultural bloke like me!  I'm wondering whether to chicken out and but some Red Wing ones as they are so successful in my other two engines!

John.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Jasonb on January 23, 2016, 05:50:27 PM
If you can do what you have done on that Best Steamer then rings should be a breeze.

The cylinder end should be quite easy to add lugs as the angle flattens out, crank end may need a bit more thinking about. Did similar on the 1/3rd scale galloway as they don't cast the lugs on the big model.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Hit%20n%20Miss/1-3rd%20Galloway/IMAG1537_zps809094c7.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Hit%20n%20Miss/1-3rd%20Galloway/IMAG1569_zpsacc6068e.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Hit%20n%20Miss/1-3rd%20Galloway/IMAG1570_zps0c6b1026.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Hit%20n%20Miss/1-3rd%20Galloway/IMAG2078_zps7588eea1.jpg)
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Alyn Foundry on January 23, 2016, 05:57:19 PM
A while ago I bought on ebay a set of RLE castings with some photo copied drawings, and with the cold weather have finally got round to making a start on them.  Straight away I realised the drawings were so illegible I couldn't read a lot of the dimensions, but JasonB came to the rescue with a better set - and a link to this forum.  Thanks Jason!

One or two things are puzzling me though. 

1.  The drawings suggest adding 1/4" to some dimension if higher compression is required.  Which dimension is this?  I guess its the con rod, but as the drawings are in sections it isn't easy to tell.
2.  My base casting hasn't got any provision for holding-down bolts where it sits on the baseboard or whatever.  Is this usual?
3.  The literature mentions making the rings 5 thou oversize before machining the piston.  I'm not that familiar with ring practice as I bought ready-made ones for my Red Wings, but doesn't that mean they will be distorted out of round when gapped correctly and inserted in a 5 thou smaller bore?  Or am I thinking too much?
4.  The amount of overhang on the exhaust valve push rod is horrible - has anyone else reduced it somehow?  I'm thinking of using a flat bar as in the Red Wings, and adding some cast support nearer the cam.
5.  Has anyone used oilite bushes for the mains?  I'm thinking I can just about work 9/16" OD ones if I make my own bearing caps and squeeze the timing gear back towards the bore a bit.  Is that daft?

Thanks for reading this!  Any input gratefully accepted.  John.

Hello John.

To answer your second post, yes you do have an early kit. I remade the sub base with mounting lugs after customer feedback.  BTW did your kit come with its Brass plate? The number stamped would tell me the year of manufacture.

You can add an extra 1/4 " to the con rod or to the piston yoke, I favour the yoke but that little bit extra makes a huge difference to the running.

Hmmm. Re the rings, we were also learning back then, now, like Jason we would make them to size, crack them open and using a small gas blowtorch heat them until they softened.

I'm not quite sure of the overhang issue, could you explain what you mean?

There are a couple of lovely built RLE's in the customer gallery at my website, both have used a flat pushrod.

The RLE was designed as a simple build project that worked but the emphasis was to let the builders ingenuity come to play. That's why there are so many different finished engine's out there.

Kind regards, Graham.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Alyn Foundry on January 23, 2016, 06:37:48 PM
Hello again.

I'm now on the same page !!

You're writing about the length from cam follower to the support bracket.

All I can say is that it works. I used 3/16" Dia Silver steel silver soldered into the Brass follower shoe, this shoe was elongated to stop the rod from rotating.

As stated in my previous post there's nothing stopping you from adding a frontal support or going for a rectangular pushrod either.

Re piston rings.

I have discovered Viton. The latest " O " rings are now capable of withstanding 200 Deg C well over the working temperature of the engine. I have refitted my Gardner model with just one it works really well, and to coin a phrase " They're cheap as chips " !!    You just need to bore the cylinder to exactly the right diameter for the stock sizes.

Kind regards, Graham.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on January 24, 2016, 11:35:20 AM
Jason - thanks for the compliment, but I doubt that I'm up to making the lugs as well as you did the ones in the photo.  Superb!  Did you hold them down in any way or just rely on the main holding-down studs?  Presumably the white areas are filler of some sort used to dress the castings?  It certainly appears to blend in the lugs very nicely.

Graham - thank you for replying.  Its great to hear answers straight from the horse's mouth (forgive the expression!). 

Yes I have the brass plate and the number is 122.

Thanks for the Viton suggestion, which sounds sensible.  I think I'll stick to cast rings though.  Any suggestions about how far to wedge them open and how hot to heat them please?  Do I quench them after heating?

Apologies if the comment about the push rod overhang sounded like a criticism!  It wasn't intended, and I have to say that the quality of the castings is superb!

A confession!  My bore has finished up 3 thou oversize.  As my Bantam hasn't any easy way to mount things on the cross slide I machined the outer dimension of the liner using a length of silver steel in the chuck, a tight fit in the cast hole in the middle.  I then machined a holder for the liner from a length of 4" round I had in the workshop, making it a tight fit on the rings the hopper will sit on.  Then the boring was done with a conventional indexable boring tool.  BUT when I got the end I could see to just under 1.250" I demounted it and checked the other end and it was .003" smaller"  - no doubt due to the poor old Bantam having been abused over the 20 years I have had it!  By the time I had corrected the discrepancy and honed it to within .0005 of parallel it was 3 though bigger than it ought to be!  Hence my wanting to make appropriately-sized rings!  Having said all that, one of my Red Wings ended up over 2 thou oversize but has excellent compression using their standard rings.

Thanks for the help.
John.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Jasonb on January 24, 2016, 01:32:15 PM
I bedded them in with a little JB weld and then use bodyfiller to blend things in. On the cylinder end you could probably just plunge down with a slot drill almost like you were spot facing and just bond in a thick "washer". I'll mock something up and take a photo.

On rings that size I would spread them about 1/8" then heat to red heat and hold them at that temp for about 5mins then allow them to cool slowly. I don't bother with making jigs, just a bit of scrap material to spread them - so long as you heat them evenly they won't go egg shaped. Three rings being cooked here

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Hit%20n%20Miss/1-3rd%20Monitor/IMAG2538_zpse35fcf89.jpg)

I usually make a spare or two

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Hit%20n%20Miss/1-3rd%20Monitor/IMAG2537_zps77d5a0ed.jpg)

Split them with cutters, cut from the sides and they should split straight across

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Hit%20n%20Miss/Half%20scale%20Domestic%20Stovepipe/IMAG0423.jpg)

Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on January 24, 2016, 02:30:53 PM
Slot drill and thick washer shouldn't be beyond my capabilities.

Thanks for the advice re. heating the rings.  That sounds straightforward enough.  I'll give it a go tomorrow.

John.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Alyn Foundry on January 24, 2016, 02:41:26 PM
Hello John.

There's no need for apologies you were making an observation. Customer feedback was very important to us so we could improve our products.

Engine number 122, very early, 19th RLE kit.
You won't have the base carburettor you will have the very thin rim silencer castings.

Your bore taper is to be expected not so much your lathe but the single ended boring bar always has some whip. ;)

After many years of ring making we hit on a 90 X 90 thou ring in a 90 X 100 thou deep groove, this size worked well for all three engines ( RLE Robinson and Gardner )
At first we cut the rings open but found too much material was being lost, this might explain the 5 thou oversize mentioned in the early text.  ;)

We then found that cracking them open was the best way followed by annealing. To anneal you place your rings on a 1/8" thick piece of Steel, pull the ring apart and slip it onto the Steel so the ring stands up vertically. With a medium size blowtorch gently heat from either side of the gap working upwards to the top centre. As the colour starts to reach Orange they will suddenly relax and usually fall sideways. They're done!! Leave them to cool naturally, don't quench as they'll become brittle.

Finally, take the cool rings and gently lap the side faces on a medium oilstone. This ensures removal of any bulges caused by cracking and gives a razor sharp edge. It also ensures a really snug fit in the groove.

As a " by the way " I might have a Mk 2 sub base kicking around and I also have other spare castings available for customers here, but no full kits left.

Looking forward to a build log here at MEM ?

Kind regards, Graham.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: michaelr on January 24, 2016, 03:32:27 PM
John. I have built the RLE it's a engine that you can do your own thing with, I fitted a extra timing gear to make it easier to adjust the sensor (Magnet ) for the ignition, the push rod is 3/16" square rod, and the inlet and exhaust valves are changed around from what the drawing shows, I also changed the standard carburettor for a Lunkenhiemer mixer made from castings, I also fitted a alloy piston with cast iron rings.
All in the RLE is a good simple practical engine ( And for Graham the casting No is 419 )

Mike.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on January 24, 2016, 05:04:41 PM
Graham, once again thanks for the input.  Re the silencer, I thought the castings appeared to have thin rims, and as far as the carburettor is concerned like Mike I'm thinking I'll buy Lunkenheimer castings from Forest Classics as I have had good results with my Red Wings.   Re. the sub base, I'll look at my casting tomorrow to see whether Jason's method of adding lugs looks feasible.  If not I'll be in touch!  As far as a build log is concerned, I'm very amateurish compared with a lot of the forum members.  I reckon some of my attempts at model-making would be a source of amusement!  I'm a lot more at home with welding together lumps of steel that have to be shaped with a gas cutter and moved by forklift, and drilling 2" holes in them.

Mike, what a nice job!  Thanks for posting the photos.  You'll see above, I had the same idea about using a Lunkenheimer mixer.  I think I see some sort of bushes for the mains too?  I hadn't thought about the electrical pick-up yet but perhaps I should, after seeing your extra timing gear.  I'm a bit hazy about how that helps?  In fact I'm hazy about what circuit to use a magnetic switch (is that a Hall sensor?) with, but think I should adapt the Red Wings to that system too, as the little pick-up pins very quickly wear I find.  There always seems to be sparking visible there.

Kind regards,
John.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Jasonb on January 24, 2016, 05:15:35 PM
We like amusement here :) especially with pictures particularly if you slipped a few of the Best in as well.

Having seen Mikes engine I think my first suggestion of cutting a slot and screwing in the lug from below would be the best to get the same look.

Here are a couple of photos that would certainly work at the cylinder end of the base.

From the side your base looks much like this

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Engineering/Misc/DSC00723_zpsirgokhzv.jpg)

Plunging down with a 1/2" cutter and then drilling your mopunting hole will leave your casting with a counterbored hole, though you will have metal between my two feet.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Engineering/Misc/DSC00724_zps6oe7rojl.jpg)

Turn up a thick washer and loctite or JB weld into place, all load will be pulling it down into the counterbore so it won't go anywhere

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Engineering/Misc/DSC00725_zpspzw9cwsp.jpg)

Blend in with body filler and add your nut, though square headed coachscrews would look good

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Engineering/Misc/DSC00726_zpsrtclp6ry.jpg)

But if you can weld then whynot just knock upo a new base with mounting lugs, couple I have done below

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Hit%20n%20Miss/PICT0278.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Engineering/07-2.jpg)

J
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Alyn Foundry on January 24, 2016, 05:17:21 PM
Hello Mike.

That's a nicely built engine, I can see a few mod's !   ;)

Kit Number 419 one of the last, I'm not exactly sure because I have mislaid the RLE daybook.  :-[

Here is a video of a good friend of mine's RLE.

ombnV0zt0eg
What's really strange is that in the last month two RLE kits have surfaced both being very early and yet you're showing one of the last, all fully built, curious !!

Kind regards, Graham.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on January 24, 2016, 06:23:49 PM
Jason,  yes I hadn't thought of welding one up, but I'll have look at my base first as your other suggestion looks good.  Re providing amusement, perhaps I'll take a few photos.  A good laugh is supposed to be good for you isn't it?

Mike, I have just seen your Centaur thread.  A lovely job you did on that too!  Funnily enough if I hadn't seen the RLE castings on ebay last year I had decided to go for a Centaur from Reeves.  It reminds me a lot of a full-sized 27hp Lister Blackstone oil engine I had a few years ago.

Graham,  I like the little mag on the engine in the vid - thanks for the link.  Re kits surfacing after years, you may be interested to know that, according to the invoice that was included with the badly photocopied drawings, the kit was sold to a gentleman in Gwynedd in October 1988 for £72.00 including gears and brass plate!  He made a good profit when he sold it to me on ebay, but he did sit on it for 27-odd years!  Oh, and your signature is on the receipt - I'd better hang on to it in case its worth money  :)

Kind regards,
John.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: michaelr on January 24, 2016, 06:52:30 PM
John. The extra timing gear acts as a carrier for the sensor magnet, the magnet is bedded into a alloy disc which is free to rotate on the gear boss, you can then time the ignition by rotating the disc when the right position is found the disc is locked to the gear boss by a grub screw, the gear and disc are retained on it's shaft by a small disc with a fixing screw tapped into the end of the shaft.

Mike.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Alyn Foundry on January 24, 2016, 07:45:27 PM
Hello John.

Hmmm. Yes the kit was £60.00 the gears were so expensive ( HPC ) @ £12.00/ pair, we didn't put anything on them, supplied at cost. Kindly PM the gentleman's name, just for sheer nostalgia!! 

Dennis's RLE has a set of car ignition points hidden inside the dummy magneto and a conventional car/motorcycle HT coil in the base.

A few RLE facts.

RLE is short for Roy's little engine, named after my eldest son.
It was loosely based around the BEECo ( Leek ) number 3 atmospheric gas engine that I acquired at the Anglesey steam rally in 1984. The attached video is the same engine running on HHO ( electrolysis of water ).

RwjTDXR31KA
The RLE was originally intended to be air cooled, in fact number 103 was first rallied with a finned cylinder as can be seen clearly on the main drawing set. A friend suggested the hopper and whooo, sales really took off.

Here is number 103 ( prototype ) running with the extra 1/4"  ;) and still missing the odd time despite the work it's doing !! That's it's third crank and second set of main bearings!!
I have a small cam and points attached to the non geared side of the crankshaft thus giving two sparks.

ZMH21SK_BN8
Kind regards, Graham.

Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on January 24, 2016, 10:38:09 PM
Mike, I get it.  I reckon an alternative would be to mount the disc and magnet on the crankshaft inside the flywheel on the other side, and just waste a spark each rev?  Do you then use a trembler coill like I have on the Red Wings?

Graham,  IM with details of purchaser duly sent.  Thanks for posting the vids.  I know the full sized air cooled engines weren't very popular over here, in fact I have never seen one in the flesh?  I have become very fond of my aircooled Red Wing though, and it was a lot easier to machine on a lathe with no tee slots in the cross slide.  Your solution for the water hopper is a lot nicer than the Red Wing, in that it has cooling all around the cylinder. 

At risk of trying your patience, one question.  Can you possibly tell me the dimension between piston and head at TDC in the higher compression engine!  I ask because the drawings that came with the kit are illegible and the ones that Jason kindly sent me are not 1:1 so its beyond me to work it out.  I ask because I'm thinking I'll fit a Red Wing piston as I have the necessary jigs to hold it on the mill etc, and I need to work out the required length of con rod.

John.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: michaelr on January 25, 2016, 08:37:29 AM
John. I use a Miniature Ignition Controller, Novus Coil, and a Hall Effect Sensor for my ignition on the RLE, which has proved very reliable over the years, and for me is easy to wire up.

See here. http://minimagneto.co.uk/Products.php

Mike.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on January 25, 2016, 08:51:44 AM
Thanks Mike.  I'll study that with interest, and will definitely go that way with the RLE.   

Now I'm off to the workshop to turn some new rings, having made the last ones 5 thou oversize  :)  I'll do my best to take some photos so we can all have a chuckle.

John.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Alyn Foundry on January 25, 2016, 02:56:22 PM
Hello John.

The high compression version, I don't think 4:1 would be considered high!! ;)    The piston leaves a 1/2" gap between crown and cylinder head.

I wouldn't suggest going any higher as the engine itself is of light construction and would need some strengthening.

Open question, was the Stuart Turner " Sandhurst " 9:1 compression ratio? I was also told that it had some inbuilt complications to tax the ingenuity of the students?

Kind regards, Graham.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on January 25, 2016, 05:22:57 PM
<<The high compression version, I don't think 4:1 would be considered high!! >>  Yes, well... :)

Thanks Graham!  I knew you'd have the answer.

It was such a lovely day I decided to work on my mole drainer instead of retiring to the heated machine shop.  I did take a photo or two though, so I hope to get round to posting some later.

Kind regards,
John.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on January 25, 2016, 06:28:11 PM
One or two photos!  Making the rings for the RLE, cylinder bolted to frame with hopper installed, the base with no mounting lugs, the poor old Best gathering dust in my study, and the mole drainer I built last year and to which I am now doing some mods.  The linkage holes in the foreground are the size of hole I'm more used to drilling - this model stuff is a bit stressful!  :)  John.

Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 25, 2016, 06:40:59 PM
Love that 4th shot! Nice!

Had to look up what a mole drainer is. Cool.
Does the use of one mean there's a drainage issue? i.e. too much water? or to provide more water?
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Chipmaster on January 25, 2016, 09:13:14 PM
I made my RLE about 20 years ago and I increased the connecting rod by a 1/4" to increase the compression.
Here's a few pictures of the engine taken in a friends back garden a couple of years ago, a pretty good looking model for nearly 20 years old but I must get round to improving the presentation. The cornflake packet was necessary to catch the oil that the engine throws about.
I have an old video of the engine running in 1997 which I will add asap. The engine isn't running at the moment because I borrowed it's ignition system for my Economy engine.
Andy
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Mathew28 on January 25, 2016, 09:50:10 PM
I love the Gardner and also the RLE. I think it's so nice to see other peoples version of them and how they make it there own.
Mathew
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on January 25, 2016, 10:28:40 PM
Carl, mole draining is only effective when there is clay subsoil to form the mole (tube like a mole makes) in.  It takes a big tractor to pull the drainer, which slides along the ground on its skids and carries a blade that penetrates down to 24" and carries on the bottom a 3" diameter cast bullet (foot) behind which is a 4" ceramic expander (bigger bullet) on a short chain.  Land with clay subsoil tends to be wet, and is drained by perforated pipe every so often across the field with shingle in the trench above the pipe, but water tends not to be able to reach the pipes.  So the idea of moling is to cross the pipes as near to right angles as possible just above them but through the shingle, channelling the water to the shingle and thence to the pipes.  The moles are either 6' or 9' apart.  We do the operation after the crop is harvested, covering up to 2000 acres each year.  Because of the force involved the clay becomes compressed to almost resemble a glazed pipe, which lasts up to ten years.  In a dry time the skids get so hot they sometimes set light to the stubble, and the wearing parts in the ground get far too hot to touch.

Andy, what nice looking engines!  Thanks for the photos.  I love the Gardner - I kick myself for not buying a kit that was on ebay with my RLE.  I bid on them both but didn't get the Gardner.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 25, 2016, 10:31:24 PM
Thanks John! I appreciate the detailed answer.  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Chipmaster on January 25, 2016, 11:10:39 PM
Thanks for the comments John & Mathew, those pictures were taken in the Summer when we meet up at each others houses on Wednesday afternoons to run a few of our model engines - steam, hot air and i/c out in the gardens.
John, my RLE crankshaft runs in the iron main bearings of the cast iron base. I probably over lubricate the bearings which may have ensured the engine's longevity but it's messy. The engine is fairly lively because I increased the compression. If I had time I'd like to try a shorter connecting rod to lower the compression and perhaps make the engine more docile.
Your engine is coming along nicely.

Andy
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Chipmaster on January 26, 2016, 06:37:27 AM
Here's the only video I have of my RLE. Taken at the Hartlebury Castle, Worcestershire, rally in 1997. The quality of the video is awful but it serves to demonstrate how the 'higher compression' engine runs. The engine was probably just finished at the time and jury rigged so it could run it at the rally with an old E.D. fuel tank and ignition coil off a Triumph motorcycle.
Andy
WMHMCxZn118
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Jasonb on January 26, 2016, 07:59:40 AM
Nice engines Andy

John, Thinking back to using Oilite bearings just be aware of the fact they are designed to be pressed into a suitable hole so as they come are slightly larger in both OD and ID with the intention that the pressing in will bring them down to size. IF you are using separate bearing caps and PGMS you may have slight play, I think the engines that I have used them on all had turned cranks.

On the ignition, if you do use flanged oilite ones you could let the one opposite the timing gears extend beyond the bearing housing say 6mm which would give you a spigot to mount an easily adjustable bracket for the hall sensor so you can advance & retard the timing then a simple disc to carry the magnet can go on the crank retained by a grubscrew. My Hoglet and the fabricated engien I showed earlier use this sort of arrangement.

J

PS I may know where there is a Gardener for sale, PM me if interested.

You can see the clamp that carried the hall sensor on teh front of teh hoglet
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Engineering/IMAG0049.jpg)
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Jo on January 26, 2016, 08:02:39 AM
 :headscratch: Another unfinished Hoglet. Or is it the same one  :lolb:

I think it should join my orphanage  :)

Jo
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Jasonb on January 26, 2016, 09:14:02 AM

I think it should join my orphanage  :)
Jo

It might feel a bit outnumbered with all those engines you have started and not completed let alone the orphans :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on January 26, 2016, 10:06:41 AM
Andy, your RLE runs sweetly and it has a real 'snap' to it.  I don't think having higher compression is a bad thing at all?  I think its important, like yours, to fire every time the exhaust valve closes, as both my Red Wings do.  It just doesn't sound right to me when there are two or three gasps then a bang after the periods of free-wheeling!

Jason, the reason I'm considering oilite bushes is because the Red Wings - my only other model IC engine experience - have them.  In the Red Wing the caps are bolted down and the holes reamed to nominal size then the bushes are sat in place and the caps squeezed back down, holding them tight.  Possible this reduces the bore a touch?  I seem to remember having to ream the bores with a 1/22 reamer after fitting, and there isn't any noticeable play using a 1/2 silver steel built-up crank.  Excellent suggestion re. the timing arrangement - thanks.  As usual I'm more than impressed with the workmanship in your Hoglet!  How many engines have you built?  I'll never achieve that sort of standard, but muddling along with my bits and pieces keeps me out of mischief.  :)

Kind regards, John.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Jo on January 26, 2016, 10:37:21 AM
How many engines have you built?

The real question should be how many engines do you still have and didn't have to give back to their owners :mischief:

Jo
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Alyn Foundry on January 26, 2016, 11:58:47 AM
Hello John.

Many thanks for your photos, good progress.

Re, " Oilite " bushes.

May I add some comments based upon my own experience? We used the services of HPC Gears for a couple of our kits, the little book was a mine of information they also carried a huge range of bushes.
To save time I bought some for making the small end bearings, back then I also offered fully built option.

I discovered, quite quickly that they didn't last very long, particularly as our engines were being run 8 hours a day at the many engine rallies we attended during the summer months. They didn't like the constant pounding and seemed to spread themselves open. I also tried them as big end shells, same problem.

Much later on I made a set of Zinc alloy bearings ( mains and big end ) for my Gardner they have really lasted. And look in keeping, as Gardner's started using " Babbit " in the early 19 0 period.

Oh, don't forget that the Anson are selling the Gardner kit!

Kind regards, Graham.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Mathew28 on January 26, 2016, 01:28:27 PM
How many engines have you made Graham?
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on January 26, 2016, 02:08:42 PM
Graham,  I have to agree that oilite bushes aren't very heavy duty.   I wasn't considering using them in the con rod because of the hammering they would get, but thought they would be ok as mains.  Zinc alloy shells would be a lot more in keeping though - is bar stock available to a novice like me?  I'll look at my usual source for bits and pieces - ebay.

As built my Red Wings start well and run beautifully for short periods, but wouldn't stand up to running 8 hours a day for long because the ignition pick-up would wear out!  I really do need to alter them to magnetic switch.  Can I or can I not use the Hall sensor to switch the trembler coil already fitted?

I didn't realise the Gardner kit was available.  Thanks for the information - I'll look there too.

John.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Alyn Foundry on January 26, 2016, 02:39:20 PM
How many engines have you made Graham?

Hello Mathew.

Welcome to MEM.

To be honest I've lost count! However I'm fairly confident it's over 50, was into double figures with the Gardner alone!!

Kind regards, Graham.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Alyn Foundry on January 26, 2016, 02:54:47 PM
Hello John.

Die casting......

Using Zinc alloy it's almost a kitchen gas hob affair. ;)

Attached is a photo of, top, I F Allman governor yoke mould. Bottom left Mk 2 Gardner big end half, with chucking stub and a failed casting due to ejection pin being inserted too far. Bottom right Mk 1 big end half, showing that you need to think of how you're going to hold the pair after making the die!! ;)   The die was made as just one half so two castings are required and then it's a simple matter of lathe work to finish.

Kind regards, Graham.


Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Jasonb on January 26, 2016, 04:27:52 PM
John if you look back through Dave Otto's Pacific Vapour Engine build he did a very good write up on white metalling the main bearings.

Graham, talking of IF Almman, any progress?

List to follow
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Jasonb on January 26, 2016, 04:49:01 PM
So what have I made

Stuart 10V
Stuart Beam
Anthony Mount Rectiliner - abandoned due to too many sand inclusions in the castings
Minnie 1" traction engine
That fabricated hit & miss I posted earlier based on the "06" design
2" Fowler A7 traction engine, still needs a bit of plumbing and painting.
1.5x Benson Vertical
Hoglet almost done
1/5th IHC Famous vertical screen cooled
1/2 scale Domestic Stovepipe
2x Easton and Anderson grasshopper beam
1/3rd scale Galloway 5hp with scratch built hand cart
Firefly 0.46cu.in glow engine
1/3rd scale Baker Ball hopper Monitor
2x Cameron Steam pump
Nemett NE15OT opposed twin 4 stroke based on Nemett cylinder/head design
1/2 scale Gade
Two 5cc glow & diesel engines
2/3rd scale Tidman organ engine from my own drawings
30% larger Jowitt popet valve engine (current project finished this weekend with luck)
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Alyn Foundry on January 26, 2016, 06:28:36 PM
Hello John.

I have just been re reading through the posts and noticed your trembler coil question.

My working career was in the EE area with a fairly good education in basic electronics. The mechanical/foundry side was for the most part self taught but with some great mentoring, I had the privilege of some education from B. Terry Aspin the author of the Backyard Foundry and Foundry work for the amateur and a wonderful man named Alex Rouse who had been a toolmaker at Rolls Royce aero engine before starting his own precision engineering business in Wrexham.

You wont be able to directly drive your trembler coil from a hall sensor but I may have a very simple solution to your burning your contact maker. Try a 0.1 microfarad @ 400 V capacitor across the maker points it will help absorb the BEMF ( Back Electro Motive Force )  spike, a bit like the capacitor or old fashioned term condenser in an old school car ignition system.
Are you using a proper trembler box?  Like the early Ford model " T " ?  If you are, you might also be using far too many volts to drive it.... 12 V perhaps ?   ;)

I can fully explain, if anyone is interested!!

Kind regards, Graham.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Jasonb on January 26, 2016, 06:46:47 PM
I'd be interested.

I use a 6v sealed battery for buzz coils

mtte8UXowUo
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Alyn Foundry on January 26, 2016, 07:26:15 PM
Thanks Jason!!   ;)

The Trembler coil was used on the early Ford model " T " it was electrically driven by..... not a battery but another set of induction coils ( four ) that were set around the four cylinder engine flywheel. The flywheel carried a permanent magnet that induced a current in the respective pickup coil that was in series with the trembler coil for the correct cylinder. By rotating the pickup coil assembly a crude but effective ignition advance/retard was achieved.

This systems voltage was dependant on the engines RPM but was not that high. The original trembler boxes should work on voltages as low as 2 V DC ( from a single cell Lead acid battery ) or accumulator as they were known. The HT comes from a secondary coil of many turns that overlaps the low voltage primary winding. In fact they were more a current dependant system than a voltage but you can't push current without volts they go hand in hand.

We made many a trembler box from redundant flywheel magneto coils but I'm not sure if the modern electronic ones will work.

As I'm wrapping this up I suddenly realised we're full circle, most modern Petrol/Gasoline car engines use four coils and a pickup system just like the model " T " !!  But....... nowhere as easy to fix if they go wrong!!   ;)

Kind regards, Graham.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Roger B on January 26, 2016, 07:37:39 PM
I modified one of these Velleman kits to use a hall effect sensor with a 6V motorbike coil.

I can't get the instructions to attach (error 500), but the it was a K2543.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Jasonb on January 26, 2016, 07:51:26 PM
I bought a set of the sprung contacts and made up a box

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Hit%20n%20Miss/Half%20scale%20Domestic%20Stovepipe/IMAG1000_zpsqzfrps0b.jpg)

The coil is an "ATV" coil from ebay

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Hit%20n%20Miss/Half%20scale%20Domestic%20Stovepipe/buzz%20circuit_zpsltynilnh.jpg)
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Roger B on January 26, 2016, 07:53:50 PM
The missing link and the mods are halfway down this:

http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,982.675.html
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on January 26, 2016, 07:59:40 PM
Roger, thanks I'll Google them.

Jason, strewth that's a list.  That explains your expertise  :)

Graham, the capacitor suggestion is well worth a try.  Many thanks.  Re voltage, I'm running the air-cooled Red Wing on a 6v accumulator from Maplins and the water-cooled one on a 12v one.  The air-cooled one gets run most as it sits on a chest of drawers in our sitting room and gets demonstrated to anyone who is polite enough not to refuse to look!  I noticed yesterday when I started it that there were little sparks flying out from the pick-up pin and also from between the teeth of the timing gears - presumably because the current was earthing to the crankshaft!  I think the latter manifestation is a symptom of my having recently gone round it with an oilcan, preventing the current from earthing through the timing gear bearing?

Kind regards, John.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Alyn Foundry on January 26, 2016, 08:19:58 PM
I bought a set of the sprung contacts and made up a box

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Hit%20n%20Miss/Half%20scale%20Domestic%20Stovepipe/IMAG1000_zpsqzfrps0b.jpg)

The coil is an "ATV" coil from ebay

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Hit%20n%20Miss/Half%20scale%20Domestic%20Stovepipe/buzz%20circuit_zpsltynilnh.jpg)

Hello Jason.

That's exactly the way we made them !!  Just used a scrap coil rather than a bought one. We had a few spares whilst we were perfecting the " Colt " engine as it was specifically designed around the Suffolk Colt lawnmower engine.

You can call me old fashioned, because I am but I still prefer the simple contact breaker and coil to any of these " new fangled " electronic systems. It's pure simplicity !!   :)

Kind regards, Graham.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on January 26, 2016, 08:35:49 PM
Graham,  you can't be more old fashioned than me - my family pull my leg because I still call a radio a wireless...... :)

I just visited M/s Maplin and bought a couple of .1uF 400v capacitors for the princely sum of £1.18 plus postage.  I'll keep you posted.

Kind regards,
John.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Jo on January 26, 2016, 08:37:41 PM
So what have I made

Stuart 10V
Stuart Beam
Anthony Mount Rectilinear - abandoned due to too many sand inclusions in the castings
Minnie 1" traction engine
That fabricated hit & miss I posted earlier based on the "06" design
2" Fowler A7 traction engine, still needs a bit of plumbing and painting.
1.5x Benson Vertical
Hoglet almost done
1/5th IHC Famous vertical screen cooled
1/2 scale Domestic Stovepipe
2x Easton and Anderson grasshopper beam
1/3rd scale Galloway 5hp with scratch built hand cart
Firefly 0.46cu.in glow engine
1/3rd scale Baker Ball hopper Monitor
2x Cameron Steam pump
Nemett NE15OT opposed twin 4 stroke based on Nemett cylinder/head design
1/2 scale Gade
Two 5cc glow & diesel engines
2/3rd scale Tidman organ engine from my own drawings
30% larger Jowitt popet valve engine (current project finished this weekend with luck)

:lolb: As I thought just a beginner...how many have you still got and not had to give back  :???:

Jo

P.S. I could find a home for that Orphaned Rectilinear  :naughty:

P.P.S. and 2X does not count as two engines good try  :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Jasonb on January 26, 2016, 08:45:48 PM
4 re homed. Its the building that I enjoy so why not give someone else the job of dusting them.

I suspect my percentage of completed, painted AND working engines is far higher than yours though :LittleDevil:

Quote
P.P.S. and 2X does count as two engines good try

Good to know it does count as I thought it did not
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on January 26, 2016, 09:16:06 PM
Jason, you might be interested in this if you haven't already seen it.  Its my source vid for details of the Best, and through a friend in Canada the owner has taken me some detail close-ups of it.

GgNkDxTRmRY
John.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on February 01, 2016, 07:08:59 PM
Sorry, no photos, but I've got the piston blank (a la Red Wing) sitting in the jig I made for the first Red Wing, in the machine vice on the mill.  That way I can slot drill the rectangular recess, then sit it sideways on a parallel to bore the wrist pin holes, rotate it 90 degrees to drill the little end oil hole, and sit it back in its original position to drill and tap the wrist pin grub screws.  I have also machined but not bored the flywheels.  The drawings that came with the kit showed 6 3/4" OD and the ones that Jason sent me say 6 7/16".  There's no way I could get 6.75" diameter from the castings supplied, so I have ended up at 6.6", assuming the bigger the better as far as running is concerned.  Although both of my Red Wings run happily with only one flywheel and no pulley......

A question - the Red Wing uses 4-40 x 1/8" grub screws to hold the wrist pin in position, and 8-32 x 1/4" ones in the flywheels.  Who supplies little ones like that please?  I can always buy Red Wing replacements from Forest Classics, but surely someone in the trade sells them?  I've looked at Reeves and several other model supplies firms but no joy.

Graham - the little 0.1 mfd capacitors arrived from Maplins today, so I'll see what happens.  Since the pick-up pin is connected to the battery negative presumably I can insert one anywhere between the negative terminal and ground?

John.


Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Jasonb on February 01, 2016, 07:27:33 PM
I don't use the UNC/UNF threads on my engines but convert to BA or Metric. Attached is the conversion chart that I made up

If you want 4-40 and 8-32 UNC then Model Fixings do them

http://www.modelfixings.co.uk/steel_grub_screws.htm
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Alyn Foundry on February 01, 2016, 07:29:55 PM
Hello John.

I'm not sure of those thread sizes, are you suggesting " 4-40 x 1/8" grub screws " two 40x1/8" either side of the piston? If you're not too worried I would suggest just one M4 grub screw, the screw is there just to stop the gudgeon pin from moving.

The capacitor just needs to be placed across the contact maker points, I'm hoping it will reduce the arcing for you.

Kind regards, Graham.

It seems our posts crossed!! Jason what does 4-40 and 8-32 mean? It's not something I have come across..... It seems you're never too old to learn !!   ;)
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Jasonb on February 01, 2016, 07:35:57 PM
Graham, at sizes below 1/4" UNC and UNF use a number to denote the thread diameter ( think wood screw gauges) followed by the tpi so 4-40 is a 0.112" dia, 40tpi thread  and 8-32 is 0.164" dia and 32tpi

See the attached chart I have just added to my previous post
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Jo on February 01, 2016, 07:42:29 PM
Hi John,

I don't know which thread set you have been using on the remainder of the model. But please, please keep to one thread type don't mix them  :ShakeHead:

Jo
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Jasonb on February 01, 2016, 07:48:28 PM
Thats almost impossible as you may need one thread form or more for fixings, one for pipework and one for the plug :ShakeHead:

I'll typically use BA for smaller fixings, BSF for 1/4" and larger fixings, ME for carbs and oilers, BSP for pipework and Metric if its a CM6 plug thread, UNEF if 1/4x32 plug
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Alyn Foundry on February 01, 2016, 07:51:51 PM
Hi Jason.

Thanks for that.   :ThumbsUp:

I have to agree with Jo all the RLE's I built were done with BA. Here's a link on ebay for BA grub screws.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.XBA+Grubscrew.TRS0&_nkw=BA+Grubscrew&_sacat=0

Kind regards, Graham.

Posts crossed again !! Jason has a point there, BSP for pipe work and Metric for sparkplugs.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on February 01, 2016, 10:41:54 PM
I knew there would be some interesting input!  Thanks Jason for the chart and link, and Graham for the replies.

Jo, I know what you mean - makes sense!

In my full-sized fabrications I have gone all metric - M8, M10 and M12 for small stuff and M16 up to M30 for the larger studs and bolts.  Since the Red Wings originated in the US the threads are mostly UNF and UNC, and I used the ones supplied so had to spend quite a bit on little taps and dies.  As I now have them I thought I might as well use them.  For the model Best I went BA, apart from the wheel spokes which are M2  - they are bicycle spokes with the threads cut off, as they are made from 2mm round and there wasn't a BA equivalent.  Years ago I bought (from Reeves I think) a BA tap and die set, but its carbon steel.  One might as well try to tap a thread with a stick of liquorice!  So as I have needed them I have bought HSS taps from Cromwells - have a trade account with them and get a substantial discount.  As I'm making a Red Wing piston (no 4, so I know how to do it......I think) I thought I'd use Red Wing sized fixings.  I have just looked at my trusty Cromwells catalogue and see that they list the sizes I asked about for very little money, so I may go that way.  But not until I have looked at your suggestions.

John.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on February 04, 2016, 12:52:40 PM
The piston is finished.  Cromwells very obligingly gave me some 4 x 40 and 8 x 32 UNC grub screws as free samples (I didn't want the boxes of 200 that they came in).

The flywheels are done apart from finishing the centre holes and fitting the grub screws.

I'm still undecided about fitting main bearing bushes or not.  Graham, your comment has made me wonder whether to not bother!  One question, and probably a silly one, but why can't I use a magnetic switch in conjunction with a buzz coil?  Why is it different from the pick-up pin arrangement on the Red Wings?

John.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Alyn Foundry on February 04, 2016, 02:54:17 PM
Hello John.

Questions noted, reply later, Grandpa duties, school run!! ;)

Kind regards, Graham.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Roger B on February 04, 2016, 02:59:08 PM
What do you mean by a magnetic switch, a reed switch or a hall sensor? A reed switch will probably work, a hall sensor will not carry the required current. This is why I built an amplifier module for my vertical engine (mentioned a few posts back).
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Alyn Foundry on February 04, 2016, 06:07:12 PM
Hello John.

My Robinson " X " type is now 27 years old, in fact it's retired from active service!!   ;)

The mains that run directly in the Cast Iron show imperceptible wear on the crankshaft, the crankpin however, is now down by 20+ thou. Using Bronze, unless copiously lubricated will actually wear the Steel rather than the Bronze. That's my personal experience.

Ok, how deep do we go here regarding contact makers? I'm fairly sure most readers here will be familiar with the term " Inductance ". Any multi turn coil wound on a " Ferromagnetic " core possesses it. One application well known is the Low Tension ignition systems fitted to many early stationary engines. When a voltage is applied to a coil, a current starts to flow, this in turn creates a magnetic field in the core. When the circuit is broken via a switch, contact breaker etc. the magnetic field rapidly collapses and generates a voltage that tries to maintain the circuit resulting in an arc  ( BEMF ). It's this arc that provided the energy to ignite the vapour within the cylinder, on LT ignition,  (Igniter type engines).

The Buzz box primary circuit is also highly inductive and would destroy the semi conductive switch that lies within a Hall sensor and IMO also very quickly weld the contacts of a Reed switch together.
There are ways to reduce arcing, placing a high voltage low capacitance capacitor across the breaker, placing a Diode ( one way electric valve ) to steer the voltage back.

Jason has used a circuit that effectively takes the rather feeble Hall switch to drive a semiconductor that's capable of handling the heavy current and high voltage spikes that the Buzz box generates.

Phew..... I hope this wasn't too technical ? Educational ?

Kind regards, Graham.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Alyn Foundry on February 04, 2016, 06:09:55 PM
Whilst on the RLE subject.....

Geoff from the Anson sent me this link.

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=262271691893&alt=web

This ones looking for some TLC !! Poor thing !!

Cheers.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Jasonb on February 04, 2016, 06:34:59 PM
Jason has used a circuit that effectively takes the rather feeble Hall switch to drive a semiconductor that's capable of handling the heavy current and high voltage spikes that the Buzz box generates.

Not me, the engines that I have used a buzz coil on have metal to metal contacts just like the real thing. Most of teh hit & miss engines with CDi units I also tend to use contacts rather than hall sensors. The S/S ignitions can be tripped by either means
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Alyn Foundry on February 04, 2016, 06:56:01 PM
What do you mean by a magnetic switch, a reed switch or a hall sensor? A reed switch will probably work, a hall sensor will not carry the required current. This is why I built an amplifier module for my vertical engine (mentioned a few posts back).

Hello Jason.

I was referring to your last sentence.

Kind regards, Graham.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Jasonb on February 04, 2016, 07:09:42 PM
Do you mean Roger B's post about the amplifier?
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Alyn Foundry on February 04, 2016, 07:28:43 PM
Do you mean Roger B's post about the amplifier?

Oooh er........

Sorry Jason.... might be considered a senior moment?   :-[ 

Kind regards, Graham.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Roger B on February 04, 2016, 07:44:57 PM
It was indeed my post. It was based on the problems I was having trying to get an engine to run with a RCEXCEL CDI system. I had already installed Hall effect sensor but wanted to use a normal coil.

"This is the basis of the system that worked on my vertical engine, a Velleman K2543. I removed R2, Bridged R3 with a wire link and replaced R4 with a 220R resistor. I bought a Futaba servo extension cable, cut off the appropriate end to fit the Hall Effect Sensor and connected Red to 1 White to 2 and Black to 4. If this was not sufficient I would have bridged D2 as well. The coil was a Lucas replica 6V bike coil from Classic Bike Parts:

http://www.classicbikepartscheshire.com/electrical-c3/ignition-coils-ht-leads-c14/ignition-coil-6v-lucas-replacement-for-classic-motorcycle-p282

I used a piece of normal pvc flex for the HT lead (it can stand 20kV) short term.

This change from the CDI moved from a few vague pops to a start and run."
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on February 04, 2016, 07:53:33 PM
Roger, I said I was hazy about it all  :)  I thought Hall sensors were reed switches.

Graham, thanks for the explanation.  I understand about the back emf......I think.  I was being lazy really, and hoping to modify the Red Wings to use a better contact breaker without having to alter the buzz coils that are in situ.  I'll try the little capacitors over the weekend and see what happens. 
Re. the mains, you're obviously right in that bushes aren't necessary.  I don't know why I keep soul-searching over using or not using them!  I have even started making larger cast iron bearing caps to accommodate them, but am still undecided!  A life-long failing of mine has been thinking too much! :( 
Re the Anson, I looked at the site but couldn't find any mention of Gardner engines.  Was I in the wrong place perhaps?

John.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Jasonb on February 04, 2016, 08:05:32 PM
They used to list the Gardener in their "shop" section but that has not down for quite a while. I'm sure they would sell more if they made it a bit more obvious on the website particularly if they are now also going to have the Retlas available
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on February 14, 2016, 01:03:24 PM
Had another hour or two in the workshop and made some progress on the crank.  The webs are sitting in my crankshaft jig waiting for the Loctite on the silver steel crankpin to cure, then the two halves of the shaft itself (silver steel again) will be Loctited in and clamped in the vee blocks for curing, followed by taper pinning.  I made the two Red Wing crankshafts by this method and they seem to be fine several years later.  John.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on February 14, 2016, 02:55:31 PM
Assembled crankshaft.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Alyn Foundry on February 14, 2016, 03:20:33 PM
Hello John.

I hope you have better luck with glued cranks than I did !!

I tried 638 when it first appeared on a couple of RLE contracts ( fully built option ). They lasted less than a few hours. I must admit I didn't pin them as the product info suggested 3 Ton shear strength on a 1" dia shaft.

Still, you have had success with your Redwing's, fingers crossed.

Kind regards, Graham. 
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on February 14, 2016, 06:05:39 PM
Hello Graham.

You have worried me now but I'm pretty confident that, given suitably cleaned interfaces the Loctite should be ok.  I wouldn't trust it without the pins though.  I drill parallel holes, ream with a taper-pin reamer, then clean the holes thoroughly and treat them with Loctite before hammering in the pins and filing off the protruding ends after curing. 

I'm a great believer in Loctite - amongst other things, I used Loctite metal filler to relocate and hold a cam follower guide which had come loose and badly worn the block of the 22 litre Diesel engine in my Caterpillar D8, and it provided a permanent cure.

Fingers crossed!

Kind regards, John.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on February 21, 2016, 05:24:50 PM
Has anyone any strong views on the best way to provide the electrical timing?  Another 52 tooth gear below the cam gear, or a disc with magnet on the crankshaft on the other side?   Presumably if I use the latter arrangement wasting a spark every other rev doesn't matter?

John.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Alyn Foundry on February 21, 2016, 05:50:40 PM
Hello John.

On every RLE I built I fitted a small tube of Steel with a flat milled on it. Right in the centre of the flat a 6 BA threaded grub screw retained the cam in the correct position. I then used the smallest set of contact breaker points I could find, oh by the way this was fitted to the non geared side. ;)

Having a mostly raised cam meant that the battery was only pulsed for a short period of time and would last a whole day on the rally field.

Wasted spark is now normal even on multi cylinder engines.

Kind regards, Graham.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Jasonb on February 21, 2016, 05:52:32 PM
You could probably get a magnet into the existing 52T gear and have the sensor on an adjustable bracket to pick up teh magnet towards the botton of the gear, the adjustment will allow for a bit of advance & retard.

With a bit more room on the opposite side of the crank you could use a magnet or simple contact again making one part adjustable. Either the disc holding the magnet/contact can be moved by loosening a grub screw locking it to the crankshaft or the sensor can rotate, if you are using bearings then the flange could be extended to allow the sensor/contact to be rotated about that. Would not be a problem using waste spark.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Chipmaster on February 21, 2016, 06:01:42 PM
Hi John, have a look at my RLE running in a video that I posted this morning in an article headed Two Alyns and a Schoenner. At some point in the video you will be able to see the contact breaker which relies on a small domed screw in the back of the half time gear to make the brief contact required in a 12v HT system. That was the system suggested by Graham Corry in the plans I had. I built my engine around 20 years ago and it has never failed. I improvised the insulated mounting for the contact breaker which used Tungsten points and materials bought from Woking Precision Models, now available from Hemingway.
If you are interested I can take close up pictures for you.
Andy
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on February 21, 2016, 06:11:51 PM
Many thanks Graham, Jason, and Andy!

Graham, the flat on the tube you mention actuates the points then? 

Jason, I'm still hazy about the magnet and sensor.  If I go that way I'd better buy a sensor so I can see what's involved.  Is the magnet ok set in a steel gear then? 

Andy, I'll look at the vid.  Thanks.

Kind regards, John.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Alyn Foundry on February 21, 2016, 06:26:04 PM
Many thanks Graham, Jason, and Andy!

Graham, the flat on the tube you mention actuates the points then? 

Kind regards, John.

Hello John.

Yes, very much the same as in an " old school " car distributor only there's one flat instead of 4,6,8.

I'm pleased to read Andy had used the original system, I changed mine after noticing sparks flying on an evening event, ah Astle park they were remarkable firework displays and open to the public till 10 pm. Fond memories.........

Kind regards, Graham.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Jasonb on February 21, 2016, 06:53:10 PM
As you don't have a sensor I'd be more inclined to go with simple contacts, the last few engines I have done have all used them only got the hall & magnets on the aero engine and Hoglet

This pic is of the Gade, behind the large gear is the cam and then behind that a ring with the grub screw in it for adjustment, you can just see sticking out the back of the ring a 3/16" stud with screwdriver slot. This is what makes contact with the insulated live contact to the left. Basically the same as Andy describes but with a bit of advance & retard adjustment. It also has a spark saver but best not worry about that now.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Hit%20n%20Miss/Half%20Scale%20Gade/HPIM1287_zpssg8iujuv.jpg)

The Allman that I'm making at the moment is very similar except the contact stud sticks out the side of teh ring

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Hit%20n%20Miss/1-3rd%20Scale%20Allman%20c1890/DSC00805_zpspvpcbnht.jpg)

J

Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Chipmaster on February 21, 2016, 06:55:22 PM
My RLE spark plug tends to get oiled up and sooty. However, the old 12v Lucas coil I use coupled with a 12v battery ensures a massive spark. I tried a 3.6 volt model i/c engine coil but it didn't provide a spark sufficient to overcome sooting up - had to keep cleaning or changing plugs. I think the miniature coil was called a Cracker or Kracker.
Andy
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Chipmaster on February 21, 2016, 07:00:43 PM
Another consideration, The points on my RLE are entirely insulated from the engine frame and self contained so that there is no electrical arcing between moving parts of the engine that might lead to problems caused by pitting.
Andy
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Alyn Foundry on February 21, 2016, 07:01:20 PM
Jason.

That's some nice looking engineering !!   :ThumbsUp:

You'd have thought that with all those emoticons above there'd have been a " hats off " one !! 

Kind regards, Graham.

PS. As our posts crossed, Andy she needs a little work to do. I had the same problem with fouled plugs until the dragsaw, can't remember changing one since.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Jasonb on February 21, 2016, 07:29:10 PM
I know a man with a set of Dragsaw castings ;) and the matching Hercules too :) :)

Thanks Graham, it was a nice one to build, wrote about it here if you are interested
http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,4863.0.html
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on February 21, 2016, 09:55:13 PM
Very helpful photos Jason.  Thanks.  An unconnected point of interest is the bearing-type cam follower, supported on one side only (unlike the Red Wing which sits in a fork).  I had decided to do this with the RLE, so its encouraging to see it in the photo.

I'm very impressed by the quality of the photos too!  From the lack of shadows it appears that you aren't using flash?  What camera do you use Jason? 

John.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Jasonb on February 22, 2016, 07:47:07 AM
Most of the construction ones were just done with my phone an aging HTC Wildfire S but it started to not focus so I'm now using a small Sony cybershot WX350. Photos of finished engine were with an equally aging Minolta Dimage.

Workshop pics are just with the fluro tubes no flash and finished ones natural light in the conservatory again without flash but with tripod and remote release.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on February 22, 2016, 09:33:49 AM
I must try harder!  I take mine with a Canon 500D, usually with a Canon EFS 17-85mm lens, but there doesn't seem to be enough light in the workshop to not use flash, and the house is worse - old with small windows.  I'm going to experiment!

John.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: tangler on February 22, 2016, 10:01:08 AM
Hi John,

I take my photos with an SLR (Nikon D90).  I usually set the camera to aperture priority at f11 or f16 to get good depth of focus.  I use a tripod as the shutter speeds tend to get extended but you can also try  increasing the ISO speed - I usually have mine on 800 or 1600. This will affect the quality but as I reduce my photos to 800 pixels wide and a Jpeg setting of 5 for publication on the web then the quality reduction won't show.

HTH,

Rod
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on February 22, 2016, 12:21:36 PM
Hi Rod,

Good thinking - I used to have a Fuji that kept defaulting to high ISO numbers whenever the battery went flat so the results were very grainy, so now I set the Canon to 100 (and always shoot in RAW).  As you say, the low ISO number isn't necessary at all for this purpose.  I've got a tripod and remote zapper too - why don't I use them!  Sloth probably  :)

Thanks for the suggestions.  John.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on February 22, 2016, 10:36:29 PM
Another question for those more experienced than me.  I've decided to play safe and make my own main bearing bushes rather than use the Oilite ones I bought.  That way, apart from the density issue I can incorporate flanges to locate the crank endwise.  Do I use brass or bronze?  I've got some brass round of suitable diameter in stock, but I'd need to buy some bronze.
John.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Jo on February 23, 2016, 07:01:44 AM
You use bronze, Brass is not a suitable bearing material  :ShakeHead:.

Jo
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Jasonb on February 23, 2016, 07:28:24 AM
Yes bronze, I usually use SA660 leaded bronze

You can buy flanged oilite bearings that is what has been supplied in two of the engine kits I have made
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on February 23, 2016, 02:03:50 PM
Thanks.  Bronze it is. 

Jason, I had second thought about the oilite bushes, flanged or straight, because of the density issue.  Do you think they are ok for mains then?  If they are it saves a little while on the lathe.  I've got the straight ones in at the moment - they were tight in the 9/16" reamed caps as you predicted, and are a good fit on the crank after reaming to 7/16".

John.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Roger B on February 23, 2016, 02:09:28 PM
A lot depends on what you are going to do with the engine. If it runs for a few minutes a few times a year to show to friends oilite (why does it keep changing to iolite  ::) ) will be fine. if you are intending to use it for long periods under load bronze will be better. If you are going to use bronze be aware that it can snatch badly during drilling and reaming.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Jasonb on February 23, 2016, 02:50:13 PM
The couple of engines that did have the oilite bearings have both been rehomed so I don't know how well they have stood the test of time but I don't think either gets run very often so as Roger says should be OK for light use. These were well known and popular American kits so I would have though they would have stopped supplying the bushes if there head been negative feedback.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Jo on February 23, 2016, 03:09:17 PM
If you choose to machine oilite or other sintered bearings don't forget that, due to the turning temperature, they will loose their oil during the turning process. The oil should be replaced before use, which is not difficult just immerse the bearing in SAE 20 starting at 80 degrees and let it and the oil cool naturally. (And don't forget if you operate oilite above 70 degrees it will quickly loose all of its oil  :( )

I have normally used oilite for slow moving bearings that are difficult to lubricate.

Jo
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on February 23, 2016, 05:37:35 PM
Whichever bushes I use, they will be fitted with a greaser like the ones on the Red Wings, as will the big end.  I use the ordinary grease I have for the full sized machinery, which seems to be fine.  I only bought oilite because they were readily available from my trade supplier, not for their lubricating properties.  John.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on February 15, 2018, 06:00:27 PM
Jo - apologies for posting in your thread about the RLE!  I had a thread of my own but somehow got lost - put it down to fast-approaching senility!
In this thread you said  <<I don't know which thread set you have been using on the remainder of the model. But please, please keep to one thread type don't mix them>>  So wise!  I have used every thread under the sun on this project and now spend ages trying to ascertain whether a stud is metric, Imperial, or BA!

Jason - I think the saying has it that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery? :)  I have just installed the Hall effect sensor as advised by you.  The equipment from Minimag seems to work perfectly, at least in set-up mode.

Re. machining the base to take holding-down bolts, I used a long-reach 10mm end mill but broke it on the first pad through clumsiness!  I then Loctited a short one into a length of 1/2" silver steel and with a lot more care machined the other three without further mishap.  The holes were drilled with a long series 4mm drill to take 3BA or 4mm bolts.

I haven't done anything about the carburettor yet.  That's about all there is left to do.  The casting that came with the bits and pieces I bought on eBay leaves a bit to be desired.  One of the little holding-down lugs is very miss-shapen.  I'm wondering whether to fabricate one to that design or whether to buy a Lunkenheimer casting from Forest Classics and go down that route.  Any suggestions Jason and Graham? 

Carl - off-topic, but a couple of photos of what a mole drainer looks like when its ready for work.

John.

Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Jasonb on February 15, 2018, 06:39:43 PM
That does not look as much fun as a couple of Fowler's pulling the mole drainer between them.

The Lunks are quite fiddly to make but they seem to work well enough and you don't need to worry about the tank being higher than the carb. But a simple venturi with a tube in te middle will work just as well.

As for mixing threads on an engine what is one to do with a metric M10x1 plug, BSP larger pipe fittings, 40tpi ME threads for various bits like oilers though Metric fine can be used but that means using metric stock on an imperial model and then general fixings in either metric coarse or BA, almost impossible to keep to one thread form. And if it's a big model and you need larger than 0BA then thats another thread form to add.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Alyn Foundry on February 15, 2018, 07:11:51 PM
Hi John.

Letís have another of your excellent photos of the miss shapen carburettor casting, we can move on from there.

The R.L.E.ís carburettor was borne of a similar one fitted to an American stationary engine I once owned called a Pilter. This was so simple but worked so well that I scaled it down to work for the R.L.E. My first attempt of a carburettor, shown on the main drawing, didnít work at all well. The vibration caused the ball valve to let the fuel column fall and the engine would starve. The Mk 2, scale Pilter carburettor sits directly on top of the fuel tank and is virtually unaffected by vibration.

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: michaelr on February 15, 2018, 07:16:22 PM
John. I changed my RLE original carb for a Lunkenhiemer, the casting is a bit fiddly and tested my machining but I got there, the photo will give you a idea how it looks on the engine.
Mike.



Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on February 15, 2018, 10:53:39 PM
Jason - re. the Fowlers, I wish!  I reckon the pair would cost ten times what my old lady did though.  The nearest I have ever been is that my first moling tractor in 1989 was a Fowler Challenger 33 steel-tracked crawler, and since then we have used a succession of Cat D7Es and D8Hs.  The huge advantage of rubber tracks though is that you can lift up the mole and drive out of the gate to the next job at 15mph.  With steel tracks a low-loader is required with all the ensuing cost and delay.
I have considered the Lunkenheimer simply because I've made a couple that work well, and also because I'm not sure how to make a fuel tank with a flat top for Graham's design to sit on!  How would one bolt the casting down - solder the bolts/studs into the top before assembling the tank?  I'm comfortable with lathe and mill but tinwork terrifies me!

Graham - I'll take a photo in the morning.  One of the lugs is buried in a mess of not very solid-looking cast which when machined away won't leave a full-sized lug I'm sure.  Your design does sound a lot simpler than the Lunkenheimer though, which is why I thought I might fabricate one.  I'll still have the issue of making a tank though - I could probably buy a cylindrical one to use with a Lunk.!

John
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on February 15, 2018, 11:10:31 PM
Mike - thanks for that.  What a super looking engine.  The spring on the push rod is a good idea too - mind if I copy you?  I like the diamond-shaped name plates too - did they come with your kit?  I don't think I'll be able to highlight the cast-on writing on my hopper if/when I do the painting.  I'm no sign writer.  I'm happy enough to use spraygun or cans, but tiny brushes - I'm far too clumsy!

As you'll see above, part of my reluctance to use Graham's design of carb is my ignorance concerning making a suitable tank!  The Lunkenheimers are a bit fiddly though, so I'm open to suggestions!  I hold me breath when I look to see whether the little needle valve hole has emerged in the cone of the valve seat, but in the two I have made it has done.  Probably more by luck than judgement!  One thing about them - the slightly rude noise the little valve makes on the induction stroke never fails to raise a giggle from someone seeing the Red Wings for the first time!

John
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Jasonb on February 16, 2018, 07:45:53 AM
Round tanks are not too hard to make, for that one I would face off a ring of suitable dia brass tube then rough cut  a couple of discs of brass, sit the ring on one and rest the other on top then soft solder. Once soldered file off the overhanging edge of the discs and you will be left with a nice neat tank, couple of tabs left on the bottom one will allow for screwing it down and silver solder any fittings to the top before soft soldering the tank together. They can be bought a skits from DeBolt in the US at a price

https://www.deboltmachine.com/collections/all?page=1

Horizontal tanks can be done in the same way or turn up a couple of stepped ends.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Hit%20n%20Miss/5-16th%20RnV%20Horizontal/DSC01666_zpslne7yhth.jpg)

You can solder on a bit of brass half round to make it look like the tank has been bead rolled as a lot were, once painted in satin silver or silver Hamerite it will look like Galv

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Hit%20n%20Miss/PICT0343.jpg)

Or just hide the tank in the sub base and JB Weld on a filler and feed boss

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Engineering/07-81.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Engineering/07-10.jpg)

I expect Graham will be along later to tell us what brand of beans he used for a suitable tin to make the tank from ;)
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on February 16, 2018, 08:59:54 AM
Jason - expert advice as usual.  I like the idea of a vertically oriented cylinder and soldering on brass half round would make it look exactly like the ones on one or two of my old full-sized engines, Amanco etc.

Don't laugh about the bean can though - I looked long and hard at a small can I emptied of its contents yesterday, and saved it just in case...... :)  That copper (cooling tank?) in the second photo looks very similar to the one on my Amanco, apart from not being as squat.  I reckon that's the way to go.  It can sit on the wooden bearers near the carburettor.  Is fuel level an issue?  In your last (superb!) photo the top of the tank appears to be about level with the carb?

Re. photos, please tell me again how you take them.  You have got more or less everything in focus and perfectly lit, and I never seem to achieve that.

Thanks again for the advice, John.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: michaelr on February 16, 2018, 09:05:05 AM
John. I got the diamond name plates made by Diane Carney Nameplates, but I don't think she is in business now, feel free to copy the push rod spring, I made the original fuel tank from a cut down stainless steel kitchen container the lid is sealed on with JB weld.

Mike.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on February 16, 2018, 10:18:49 AM
Mike - of course, I'll look for name-plate makers.  I think I know someone who makes the ones to be given out at tractor rallies.  Thanks for the suggestion about JB Weld too - until Jason mentioned it I hadn't given it a thought.
Seeing your stainless tank made me think of the water tank I have made for my unfinished Best model.  Its made from 4" diameter steel tube with turned ends riveted in, but one could be made and soldered up, the lid etc being completed before final assembly.  Don't know why I was worrying!

Graham - photos below of the casting.  I don't think that by the time I've cleaned it up there will be enough material left for the lug?

John.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on February 16, 2018, 10:41:53 AM
I just fought my way through the cobwebs to the back of the shed the Amanco is in and was amazed to see how much bigger the tank was than I remembered!  Perhaps one for the RLE wouldn't be far out at 4" diameter by around 1.5" high.  Food for thought.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Alyn Foundry on February 16, 2018, 11:13:21 AM
Good morning John.

A pictures worth....

Your carburettor casting is a very poor ď pull ď from another, definitely not one supplied by me. I do have a few spares, with the now famous, special coating. :)

Jason, not beans but .... A ď Three Nuns ď tobacco tin was first used. The present tank fitted to my R.L.E. was purpose made from Zinc plated Steel and sits neatly between the mounting timbers.

That 50 gram tin held enough fuel for several hours of running!!

Iíll try and take some pictures later.

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on February 16, 2018, 01:37:14 PM
Hello Graham!

I thought that particular casting wasn't up to your usual standard.  I'm in a quandary now in that I can either ask you if you'd be prepared to sell me one of your spares or I can buy a casting to make a Lunkenheimer.  If I make your design - which is very attractive because of its simplicity - I'm right in thinking the tank and carb need to be attached directly to the cylinder head am I not?  While the Lunkenheimer is a lot more complicated to machine I would be able to have the tank where I like, i.e. to emulate the Amanco.  Don't know - its six of one and half a dozen of the other!  What do you think?  To add to my confusion there's a lovely-looking little carb in Jason's photo!  Perhaps I ought to make one of those..............

John.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Alyn Foundry on February 16, 2018, 02:20:42 PM
Hello John.

I never owned an Amanco, played with a few though. If memory serves they had a special non return valve in the fuel line?

Before I turned 103 into a ď Dragsaw ď my tobacco tin tank sat on the flat wooden box base that housed the HT ignition coil. In effect being supported by the base. When I mounted the engine on the Oak runners that form the structure of the Dragsaw I suspended the carb and tank ( between the runners ) directly from its connection to the cylinder head.

Thereís absolutely no reason why you couldnít do the same as the Amanco with my carburettor, so long as you have liquid fuel under the jet and the special valve to stop it pouring out when idle.

Am I correct in thinking that the Lunkenheimer carburettor has another spring loaded ď snifter ď valve?

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Jasonb on February 16, 2018, 04:08:22 PM
Yes the Lunks have a valve much like an atmospheric inlet valve and there is a small hole drilled through the valve seat that leads to the needle so as air is sucked in the valve lifts and fuel is also drawn in. When the valve drops that closes off the fuel supply and will act as a NRV if tank below or a stop valve if tank a little above.

The red engine has a simple ball NRV in the line so that fuel does not drain back between hits and just needs priming to get the fuel up before starting by simply putting a finger over the inlet and turning the engine over once. It is an easy carb to make.

I have the castings for an Amanco Hired Man and that will have one of the flat tanks on it's "sack barrow"
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Jasonb on February 16, 2018, 04:14:37 PM
This is the horizontal tank I showed earlier painted up to look like Galv, this has a foot valve at the bottom of the vertical pipe so fuel does not drain back.

Also something a bit larger than a backy tin, this is a cut down 2.5lts paint tin.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Alyn Foundry on February 16, 2018, 04:30:53 PM
Ah.... I found one.

Stover engine in the USA, Pilter in Europe.

Look at the similarities of the carburettor.   ;)

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on February 16, 2018, 11:59:33 PM
Graham, can I ask you to part with one of your spare castings please?  Perhaps you'd like to send me an IM about it?  I'm sure the special coating makes them highly desirable and well worth whatever the damage is.  Having made a couple of Lunkenheimers I'm interested to try something different, but can you just enlighten me about fuel levels, foot valves etc please?  I think a foot valve is shown in your drawing and is there a tube going down to near the bottom of the tank?

John.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on February 17, 2018, 10:07:28 AM
I just posted a cry for help in the 'machines' section of 'help' asking for advice on buying a better mill.  Jason, I know a lot my problem is ability, but I'm sure the rest is down to having crap machinery - isn't it?  I'll NEVER be capable of making tiny parts to the standard that you turn them out!  Do you spend ages filing and sanding (in which case my problem is patience!) or do the parts look so perfect from the word go? 

Oh well, back to this morning's challenge - trying to get 1mm split pins to look vaguely central in the 2.5 mm governor weight retaining pins on the RLE, using the mill in the photo.  It dosn't help that the quill has at least a 2.5mm wobble..........
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Jasonb on February 17, 2018, 01:17:15 PM
Well some on here would have you believe that the far eastern machines that I use are also Crap :noidea:

Apart from a bit of emery wrapped around a file to take the odd machine marks out of flat surfaces off the mill the rest is just as it comes off the machines.

If you can find an ex industrial machine that is in good condition then I'm sure they may well work for you but it's that sorting through all the crap ones that takes the time.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on February 17, 2018, 02:29:31 PM
So do you think its better to buy a new far eastern mill - I've looked at Warco - rather than a secondhand one like a Bridgeport providing obviously I could find one that wasn't too badly worn?

I was tempted by the Excel ETM 2VS manual turret mill a couple of years ago, but its now £8Kish for a new one, which is more than I want to give for what is essentially a hobby machine.   

 I feel a bit guilty about whingeing about my old mill - it developed a horrible wobble when I broke the long endmill the other day, but this morning before drilling the 1mm holes in the 2.5mm pins I knocked the collet chuck down and retightened it with the pull stud and got rid of nearly all the wobble.  The holes went exactly through the centre of the pins with no major dramas, although using a 1mm drill bit is a bit stressful.  The other day I was drilling 2" holes in a bit of 1" flat and it was a lot less hassle!

John.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Jo on February 17, 2018, 04:20:35 PM
Well some on here would have you believe that the far eastern machines that I use are also Crap :noidea:

You get what you pay for don't expect industrial quality at a knock down price  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on February 17, 2018, 07:48:13 PM
I'd be very happy to produce items with the accuracy that Jason achieves if his photos are anything to go by!

I suppose I should admit I'm a bodger and stick to agricultural stuff, but I like to keep trying.  I have built a lot of things in the workshop - the biggest muck spreader bodies in the world at the time, self-propelled sprayers and spreaders, a 6x4 truck with tipping body for our son, etc - but only recently have turned my hand (with varying success) to tiny things.

John.

Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Jo on February 18, 2018, 08:53:19 AM
I'd be very happy to produce items with the accuracy that Jason achieves if his photos are anything to go by!

A bad workman blames his tools, a experienced person can normally achieve a task even with bad tools. 

Jo
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on February 18, 2018, 05:06:08 PM
<<A bad workman blames his tools, a experienced person can normally achieve a task even with bad tools.>>

And there's me thinking I'd done quite well to get 1mm holes through the middle of 2.5mm pins using a 74 year-old mill with a wobbly spindle!  Wash my mouth out!

John.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Alyn Foundry on February 19, 2018, 02:08:47 PM
Hello All.

It's Alan's funeral tomorrow afternoon, the family have been looking through the photos to celebrate his colourful life.

Typically some of mine surfaced, engines, engines and yet more engines.... I found this one quite pertinent to the recent carburettor discussion....

In the foreground is number 103, quite distinct is the high mounted lubricator and the equally high mounted carburettor and " Baccy tin " fuel tank. To the rear, probably a contract?? But showing the evolution.

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on February 19, 2018, 08:17:33 PM
Graham - I have just been looking at the drawings I have of your carb, and the A4 one entitled 'Carb & Components 300 series' dated 29:9:88 shows the one in question.  The drawing doesn't show a dip pipe though.  Is there one extending from the non-return valve to near the bottom of the tank, or isn't it necessary?

John.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Alyn Foundry on February 21, 2018, 11:42:49 AM
Good morning John.

No, not really.

For most builders who may well run their engines occasionally as long as thereís fuel over the valve assembly itíll work.

When I was doing the rally circuits my engines ran all day, water boiled hopper/tanks were topped up as necessary. My Gardner was on its third set of piston rings before I switched to Viton!

One thing I found was that my engines doing so many hours running those with ď Brasses ď for bearings actually wore down the crankshaft journals. I put it down to insufficient lubrication. Those that ran directly into the cast Iron never wore at all.

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on February 21, 2018, 05:39:18 PM
Hello Graham,

Thanks for that.  I know you said once before that bronze bushes in the mains weren't necessary, and I don't doubt that for a moment.  I just included them for cosmetic reasons, and probably won't run the engine for long periods.  My long-suffering Red Wings get started umpteen times to show people, but seldom run for more than a few minutes at a time.  They have never been taken to rallies or any public event like yours do.

Thinking about the carb while I've been doing other things, I've wondered whether the jet block assembly could be made a little longer so it utilised a little more of the fuel in the tank?  I suppose actually a short dip pipe would have the same effect, and when the fuel level dropped below the point the engine wanted to suck it from, it would just stop running anyway.  As drawn the jet block extends about 1" into the tank, give or take the thickness of the lid, does it not?  I suppose a bit of 100mm copper tube, which is what I'm thinking of making the tank from, would actually contain around 188ml of fuel in the top inch!  That ought to be enough to show off quite a lot!  :)

John.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on February 21, 2018, 11:04:22 PM
Now I'm really going to show my ignorance!  In the drawing of the non-return valve at the bottom of the carb the ball is labelled a 1/8" d. P.B. Ball.  What's a P.B.Ball?  Just an ordinary stainless ball?  Google says its a peanut butter ball, but I think that's a bit soft for this application.  :)

John.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: rick41 on February 22, 2018, 01:19:59 AM
Perhaps Phosphor Bronze?  Just a guess!
Rick
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Jasonb on February 22, 2018, 07:35:22 AM
Yes it is a bronze ball but stainless will do I have used them on several fuel non return valves
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on February 22, 2018, 09:23:05 AM
Of course its phosphor bronze!  Stupid of me, although I didn't know such a thing existed.  Tractor king pins sometimes have a ring of individual normal ones to act as a thrust bearing so I've got bigger stainless ones in stock.

I've probably got small stainless ones too but I wonder whether PB would be lighter - presumably that's why they are specified.  It would obviously seal as well and might let the fuel through with less suction.  I'll see if Google knows about the relative densities.  Not worth a lot of trouble though if Jason says stainless is fine.

John.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Alyn Foundry on February 22, 2018, 11:16:34 AM
Good morning John.

Busy day, yesterday sorry for my late reply.

Yes, Phosphor Bronze. Before the days of Stainless Steel they were used widely in systems that needed a corrosion resistant non return valve. Stainless is a good alternative.

As for lengthening the jet block to suit your fuel tank, yes thatís exactly what I would do.

Your genuine OEM part should reach you in a few days....  :)

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on February 22, 2018, 01:38:53 PM
Hello Graham,

Thanks - I'm looking forward to setting eyes on the now-famous coating on it!

Take care,
John.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on March 13, 2018, 02:21:01 PM
Graham, is it critical how far the 3/16" diameter end of the jet block with its 1/16" needle hole projects into the 7/32" passage in the main body?  As machined mine is just flush if I seat the jet block on a soft washer, or can stick out into the passage by a gnat's wotsit if I leave the (unnecessary) washer off.  Its just a matter of machining a bit off somewhere if that isn't enough - i.e. to cause some sort of venturi effect.  When I've soldered the top on the tank all that's left to do is the woodwork.  John.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Alyn Foundry on March 13, 2018, 04:12:35 PM
Hi John.

The Gnats whisker is fine!  ;)

Better to slightly protrude....

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on March 13, 2018, 04:54:46 PM
Thanks Graham.  A gnat's whisker it is - I thought that washer wasn't necessary  :)

I've just made the mixture screw.  I'm very near the point where I find out if it works!  Fingers crossed.

John.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Alyn Foundry on March 13, 2018, 05:00:48 PM
Hi John.

A first run? How exciting, there's few things to match !

Your " choke " is simply a finger placed over the front of the carburettor for one pull on induction.

Next pull should, if all's set right, see it running. Get ready for an ignition stop if the governor doesn't get the speed to regulate at around 450 RPM.

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on March 13, 2018, 11:21:49 PM
Hi Graham,

Good thinking about stopping the spark.  I'll just screw the engine down to a board for testing so the ignition unit and battery box will just be lying about.

Yes its quite a feeling of achievement when they run for the first time.

John.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on March 15, 2018, 06:08:22 PM
It runs Graham!  Initially it didn't have great compression, but after a few minutes running that's no longer a problem.  In fact there might be a tad much as the engine - complete with flat board its attached to for testing - jumps around all over the living room floor (wife is supportive but the poodles are decidedly suspicious).  I can't start it by pulling the flywheels yet, but it goes every time when spun with cordless drill and three-pronged adaptor I made to go between the flywheel spokes.  I'll try to do a vid over the weekend.

John.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Jasonb on March 15, 2018, 06:29:09 PM
Thats what we like to hear, well done.

If the jumping about (the engine not you) gets too much you may want to think about taking a bit of weight out of the flywheel rim, several engines I have made have had this on the drawings and match full size.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Hit%20n%20Miss/5-16th%20RnV%20Horizontal/DSC01709_zpsq9wlaqvh.jpg)
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on March 15, 2018, 10:10:01 PM
Thanks Jason.  Actually, I'm not sure which of us was jumping about more - the engine or me.

Good idea about adjusting the flywheels.  Presumably it was done with a ball-nosed endmill?  If its weight-removal it would be diametrically opposite to where added weight would be?  I'll refer to the Red Wings, which hardly jump at all. 

Another issue that comes to mind is the compression ratio of course, and I was warned that a higher ratio would cause jumping was I not!  It hasn't come right up yet, only having run very briefly, but presumably soon will.  I wonder whether lowering it would help, and do you think that would make starting easier too?  I still can only start it with the drill.  Its easy enough to reduce it as I used a Red Wing pattern piston with three rings, so I could easily turn the top ring groove off thus shortening the stroke by about .25".
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Jasonb on March 16, 2018, 07:29:16 AM
Have you tried adjusting the timing when it is running to see if advancing or retarding calms it down a bit?
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: MJM460 on March 16, 2018, 10:42:55 AM
I don't know what clearance volume you have at top dead centre, but I am wondering if 0.25 inches might be way to much to take off in one step for the reduction you are thinking of.

Compression ratio is the ratio of swept volume plus clearance volume to the clearance volume, so it is all about how that 0.25" compares with the the current clearance.  Would it be better to take it off in two or three steps?

MJM460
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Alyn Foundry on March 16, 2018, 11:03:59 AM
Good morning John.

I'm sorry I didn't reply sooner to share in your success, very well done!!

You could say it was 30+ years in the making....

Two things, Jason has already touched on one. Ignition timing. Try retarding it, a bit at a time. The second one which might make all the difference, richen the mixture. As you can't start the engine by simply pulling the flywheels over TDC it suggests to me that she's running a little lean. With a richer mixture the combustion process is slowed a little.

Please leave major surgery alone for the moment.    :)

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Jasonb on March 16, 2018, 12:07:04 PM
You could also make a spacer to move the head away from the cylinder to try things out before chopping the piston, thick gasket may do or a bit of 1/16" sheet metal.

Also if the end of your piston is all solid metal you could bore out the end, if it works then all well and good, if it does not then the recess can be filled back up with metal preferably an aluminium slug as that may help with your balance issues which may be due to a heavy piston. This way you keep all of your rings and won't loose any sealing ability.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on March 16, 2018, 12:33:52 PM
MJM460 - the reason I mentioned .250" was that using a Red Wing piston I have actually increased the crank to piston crown measurement by that amount, and it was also the amount by which Graham suggested in his drawings that relatively higher compression could be achieved.  I was warned though that increasing the compression might make the engine jumpy and more difficult to start.  Both of which it is!

Graham and Jason - yes, I won't do anything in a hurry.  I'm still playing with mixture and timing.  One thing I've noticed is that it still runs but gets quite hot when the timing is advanced beyond TDC.  To far retarded and it still runs but sounds laboured.  The mixture seems to be quite critical - alteration quickly causes the engine to stop.  I'll experiment more over the weekend, and had already wondered about the spacer idea Jason.

John.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on March 19, 2018, 04:15:49 PM
I still can't start it by hand - it seemes to want to be going a lot faster than that before it fires.  When runnning its like clockwork though.

I've posted a video to Youtube   yGfUU7FRUcU
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Alyn Foundry on March 19, 2018, 05:07:54 PM
Sweet as a nut!!

Well done John.   :ThumbsUp:

Now it's time to " tame the beast ".... I feel she's running a little too fast at the moment. The remedy is a couple of lighter springs between the governor weights or if you threaded the weight rods bring them out a little further.

I'm still a little perplexed about the " power " starting, how well are you " choking " ? Usually a good flood of the intake allows a hand pull and away.

All said and done though, a lovely job and thanks for sharing your experience with us all.

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on March 19, 2018, 05:08:58 PM
Two more very short vids.

3QBcCO9M4swH4yqIGFrD38
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Jasonb on March 19, 2018, 05:24:31 PM
Have you checked that the non return valve is keeping fuel in the vertical pipe, may be that it is draining back between hand starts so needs the drill or a running engine to keep the fuel up.

I have not used a drill or electric starter on any of my hit & miss engines, some are a bit better started from cold with a starting handle but hand start when warm, others will go straight away with a pull of the flywheels. The R&V I posted the other day was just hand pulled.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on March 19, 2018, 05:25:44 PM
Thanks for the kind comments Graham.  You're right, its running much too fast.  I'm puzzled too about why I need to spin it so fast to get it running.  I tried removing one of the fly-weight springs - I know, lopsided! -  and it did run more slowly, but I still couldn't start it by hand.  I get the feeling its using too much fuel too, but haven't tried to quantify it.  Yes I choke it as you suggested.  I turn it until its about to suck and then put a finger over the air intake.  That sucks up a lot of fuel - it spreads all around the top of the tank!  I've tried advancing and retarding the ignition timing while its running, and also altering the mixture, and it seems to be on optimum settings in the vids. 

I'm still convinced that I've made the high compression option though, so I think I'll try Jason's suggestion of making a distance-piece to go under the cylinder head.  There's nothing lost apart from a little time if it doesn't help.  One thing though - higher compression version or not, its still a lot easier to turn over than the Red Wings are.  I'm just wondering if the rings aren't as good as they might be - it was my first attempt at making them after all.  Both Red Wings have wonderful compression, but I used the rings they supplied rather than making my own.  I have noticed in the brief time I've run it that the oil from the wrist-pin lubricator is going everywhere rather than just lubricating the bore - an indication of blow-past perhaps?  I think I'll run it in a bit more before I do anything drastic?

John.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on March 19, 2018, 05:32:20 PM
Jason - even after choking, with fuel running about all over the tank top, it still doesn't give a peep when turned by hand.  In fact with the DeWalt 3-speed drill I'm using to spin it, I need to use the middle speed - low gear isn't fast enough.   The first few revs it doesn't fire when spun, then there's a bang and its away.  Its a good starter, but only with lots of revs!  Re. the NRT, yours is a very sensible suggestion but I've tried to eliminate that by filling right to the top of the filler neck, which is more or less level with the jet orifice in the carb!
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Alyn Foundry on March 19, 2018, 06:49:30 PM
Well....

We all know the drill.... Fuel.... Spark.... Run....

Sounds like you've fuel, so what about the " sparks " department? A very old dodge was to set up a " fly button " spark gap. You put one hole from the button onto the plug thread and wound the HT wire through the other creating a gap for the spark to jump across. Using this method you'd be able to see if you have a spark at low RPM and if the plug is dodgy the gaps high resistance ensures no leakage and a spark at the electrodes.

Regarding too much fuel, I don't see any black sooty exhaust so I wouldn't think so.

Cheers Graham.

Addendum.

I recall reading that she heats up the water rather rapidly, suggesting a lean mixture or far too advanced, or both! Try further opening of the fuel needle until you produce Black sooty smoke then work backwards John.

G.R.C.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on March 19, 2018, 10:57:38 PM
Graham - in the past I've had a brand new Honda ATV plug that was faulty, so the first thing I did was try a second new one, but it didn't make any difference.  I'll definitely investigate the spark at low revs, although the little Minimag box is flashing its light.  That may well not mean the plug actually sparks though?

Fuel-wise, I've tried altering the mixture both ways but it only runs reliably where I've got it.  The exhaust is quite wet, so I don't think its running too lean.  The wetness is black though.  Its quite possible I've put too much WD-40 in the Coleman fuel - its about 10 parts Coleman to 1 part WD-40, with a dollop of ether to make it a bit more volatile.  I've erred on the generous side with the WD-40 ever since one of my Red Wings ran dry and I had to make another piston for it.

One interesting point - I would have said that my fuel tank is at least as big as the ones I've seen in photos but there's no way it would run all day on a tank full.  I think an hour would be the very longest I could expect.

Having said all that, the compression is improving every time I run it. 

John.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Jasonb on March 20, 2018, 07:29:44 AM
I just run neat colman's, your drip oiler should be lubricating the cylinder/piston.

Black is likely to be the rings bedding in, wet could be fuel being drawn in and not burnt before the engine fires, how long does it take to start on the drill?
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on March 20, 2018, 09:12:35 AM
The drill spins it up to speed and then it fires immediately then I withdraw the drill and it slows down a bit and always carries on running.

The oil from the drip oiler seems to be all ending up on the outside of the block/frame rather than going into the bore.  On the oiler I have used - a Red Wing one - there's an open sight window in the stem and the oil seems to be blowing out of that.  There was one with the castings I bought but its huge - totally out of scale - so I didn't use it.  It might have had glass tube to see the drip through like a full-sized one has - I'll look.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Alyn Foundry on March 20, 2018, 11:40:04 AM
Good morning John.

Hmmm, " special  " fuel?

Might be a good idea to try some Petrol!

We all have a tendency to " over " lubricate these machines, worried about our hard work going " South " , but the simple fact is with a cast Iron piston running in a cast Iron bore, correct clearance between, seizure is highly unlikely.

What material is the Red Wing piston made from John?

The lubricators I used to supply were known as 1" by 1/8" or one inch diameter glass by 1/8 inch BSP thread, and made in the Far East.

Regarding the fuel we discovered that a particular brand performed way better than others, on Martin's   
" Moffat " a twin piston common bore engine, you could actually hear the difference! That particular fuel was actually removed from the market due to it causing engine damage.

The R.L.E. was designed to run on either Petrol or Propane, perhaps John, just try some Unleaded?

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on March 20, 2018, 12:26:46 PM
Graham - You're right of course, try some unleaded!  The main reason I buy Coleman fuel is that the Red Wings are sitting on a chest of drawers in our sitting room and get started to show to visitors whether they want to see them or not  :)  The Coleman fuel seems to make less smell than unleaded, although both engines are happy to run on the latter.  And I quite like the faint whiff of ether..... :)

Its a cast iron piston.  I had a spare bit of cast round that I had used for the Red Wings so I made the piston from that, and the rings came from the bit of cast that was amongst the stuff I bought on eBay.

I've been doing other things this morning, but after lunch I'll investigate the low-revs spark before I do anything else.

Thanks for the suggestions!  John.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Manorfarmdenton on April 03, 2018, 08:11:58 PM
Update!  I started it by hand this morning for the first time.  Successive runs when started by drill have resulted in the rings bedding in and the compression coming way up.  Its still running a lot too fast because I haven't got round to fitting weaker springs to the flyweights, but that's something I can fiddle with later.  Its still on the Coleman fuel based mixture too - all our vehicles are Diesel and I haven't been to a garage to buy unleaded petrol.

John.
Title: Re: RLE questions!
Post by: Alyn Foundry on April 04, 2018, 11:04:05 AM
Great news John.

You'll have to get a video together when you're happy with how she runs.

Cheers Graham.