Model Engine Maker

Engines => From Plans => Topic started by: zeeprogrammer on December 16, 2015, 05:26:51 PM

Title: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 16, 2015, 05:26:51 PM
Many thanks to Julius for the plans as well as Bob Middleton for the original design.

I'd been looking for a project for some time. You know, the kind you can't get out of your head.
This engine has captured me.  :pinkelephant:

I drew up most of the parts and assembled them in CubifyDesign. Not that it's necessary but it helps me get an idea of what's involved and how to go about it.
The video shows the result.
It's a very poor video and I completely forgot to turn off the TV. Turn off your speaker or enjoy some "Leave it to Beaver".
It just happened to be on. I wasn't watching. Really.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/th_MVI_0031_zpsshsjw9zz.mp4) (http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/MVI_0031_zpsshsjw9zz.mp4)

I need to find an alternative to Photobucket. It was quite frustrating.

It will be a while before I can get started cutting. Holidays, household chores, and job are in the way right now.
But I'll start preparing and will no doubt have some questions to ask.

It's been a while since I've gotten this excited. A long while.  ;D
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Brass_Machine on December 16, 2015, 06:22:41 PM
Hi Zee,

This engine has had me day dreaming for years about building it. Anxious to see you have a go. Where did you get the plans? Nevermind, I found them!

Eric
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on December 16, 2015, 07:40:13 PM
Carl it has my attention as well. I have been looking for plans for this engine since I saw the engine itself.

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: vcutajar on December 16, 2015, 07:43:29 PM
That was quick and nicely done.

Quote
This engine has captured me.  :pinkelephant:

I think I am hooked also.  I will be following you when you decide to start it (unless I start it before).

Vince
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 16, 2015, 08:32:31 PM
Thanks Eric. Glad to know it's not just me.  ;D
Don - Thanks for looking.
Vince - go for it!

I think my family is going to be upset with me this holiday. I haven't left my desk for two days.  ;D
Well that's just too bad.  :embarassed:

One of the things I look to do is add some detail (i.e. make it mine  ;D ). With that in mind I have some initial questions...

1) I'm thinking it would be cool to replace the oil cups with...with...rats...what's the name? The oil thingies with glass tubes. You know what I mean. The oil cup is 3/8 diameter and 1/4 tall. The tube is 1/8. Can a thingie be made to scale?
2) Which got me wondering what the scale of this engine is. Haven't found it yet.
3) The cylinder uses 6 studs on either end to hold the covers. I wouldn't mind having a few more. What would be suggested? 8, 10, 12, more?
4) The eccentric straps and crank rod bearing ends have holes for oil. Any reason why one wouldn't use...sigh...thingies? But that may be going too far.
5) I didn't see any aluminum material in the imperial drawings (it was nearly all bright mild steel, brass, or stainless) but the metric drawings do call out several parts in aluminum. I'm not questioning the choice of material...just curious if this is a difference in practice between countries/regions.
6) I do intend to use a lot of aluminum instead of BMS. Any reason why it wouldn't be paint-able?

I'm also going to open up the frames similar to the metric drawings.
And yes...studs-n-nuts.

Happy to take any suggestions.


Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: vcutajar on December 16, 2015, 08:45:05 PM
You mean something like this oil thingy:

(http://www.nam-engineering.com/cm/albums/userpics/10009/CORLISS200330.jpg)

I did not realise there where so many differences between the metric and imperial plans.  I need to download the imperial plans.

Vince
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on December 16, 2015, 09:20:24 PM
That will be aneat mechanism to watch run for real. Looking forward to seeing your build. :popcorn:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 16, 2015, 09:27:02 PM
Vince - Yes! Thanks.

If you're looking at the metric drawings (to build in metric) then I doubt the imperial will be very helpful. The metric drawings give more and better information.

I just know someone is going to ask me why I don't just build in metric. I'd thought about it but I think getting parts/materials would be too difficult to be worth it at this point in my life (i.e. experience).

Speaking of which...I'm already stuck trying to translate some of the fastener stuff.
For example, the metric drawing shows the eccentric rod as 4mm diameter and threaded M4 on the ends.
The imperial drawings show 1/8" diameter and threaded 1/8. 1/8 thread?

I found a table that shows the equivalent M4 is 8-32 (or 8-36). But 8-32 has a minor diameter of .1257. Seems I'd be cutting air.
Seems 6-32 would be the choice. No? [EDIT: er...make that 5-40].

No doubt most of you will be saying to yourselves "been there done that".  :Lol: Someday so will I.

Just saw your post crueby. Thanks!
 
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on December 17, 2015, 01:51:16 AM
I'll be looking forward to any or all of you starting a build on this one. Having seen the model at CF two years ago as I recall, it is a fascinating motion and offers lots of opportunities for details. Go for it guys!!

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: fumopuc on December 17, 2015, 05:45:29 AM
I do not know if somebody has mentioned this link to the video before. Have fun.
COBX_IOTClA
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: vcutajar on December 17, 2015, 06:36:16 AM
Thanks Achim.  That's the one with an external flywheel.

Vince
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 17, 2015, 12:01:14 PM
Thanks Achim.

Does anyone know what the brass bit is underneath (seen from behind)? A lubricator? But it seems to have a handwheel (seen from the front).

For Jo: "Too far?" I'm from the midwest. I'm thinking you're down the road apiece.  ;D
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: RonGinger on December 17, 2015, 01:30:32 PM
Ray HasBrouck built a very nice monitor model several years ago, which he always showed at Cabin fever and NAMES. He told me that he got into building it  when he saw a model at the Science Museum in London but it was missing the valve gear. Since the Science Museum was usually very detailed in its models that made him curious and he set out to determine how the valve was controlled. He finally thought that Ericson had destroyed any drawings to protect his design. When the Monitor Engine was raised Ray was hopeful he could see enough there to determine how it was made. Sadly Ray died before he got to see it.

Ray did design a very workable valve gear and always demonstrated its smooth operation. It was a handwheel operating a screw that changed the links.

Ray never did drawings of the model, although he was often asked for them. It would have been a major undertaking. I do not know who got Rays model.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 17, 2015, 02:04:11 PM
Thanks Ron. Interesting and sad story.
I came across this link that talks a bit about it. I believe it shows the handwheel/screw/links you mention. Also has a reference to Ray.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=949949

Way beyond my capability.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: tvoght on December 17, 2015, 03:26:51 PM
The model shown in Zee's last post shows the Monitor engine built by Rich Carlstedt. He usually shows it at NAMES, and it's incredible.
I've attended seminars that Rich held at NAMES describing some of the details of the build, and some of the extensive research he had done in the effort, including study of some of Ericsson's original construction drawings.

The folks at the Mariner's Museum where the raised engine resides know Rich well, and often consult with him as an expert.

Video of Rich's fantastic engine:

VWn8gQ9Ykpk
--Tim
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: fumopuc on December 17, 2015, 08:05:08 PM
Thanks Achim.

Does anyone know what the brass bit is underneath (seen from behind)? A lubricator? But it seems to have a handwheel (seen from the front).

It seems there is some wiring also. I would suppose a small e-motor to run the engine by a friction roller ?
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 18, 2015, 01:32:08 AM
I think I see what you mean Achim. Hard to tell.
The 'tubing' could be air or a wire cable I suppose.
Still doesn't explain the hand wheel (which isn't turning).

Well now the time is going to get short for a bit.
Got to visit my folks...Dad turned 89 today. Still bowls with Mom.
Then Christmas.
Then our 40th anniversary (I really can't believe that.)
Then New Year.

Goes so fast.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 18, 2015, 02:18:26 AM
Vince,

I'm thinking the metric drawings are, if not accurate, more accurate than the imperial.
I suspect some typos occurred when transferring from metric to imperial.

For example, part #25 (Valve Rod Gland) is given as 0.625. But this is the same width as the steam chest and will collide with the cylinder. I checked the metric and it's listed as 13mm which is closer to 0.5". Part #24 was closer. 18mm which is about 0.71" and is close to the 0.75" called out in the imperial drawing.

If anyone is doing this in imperial, I strongly suggest using the metric as a check.

I sure hope Julius doesn't get upset with me. I can't describe how happy I am to get the plans, and to pore over and study them. And I'm learning things.

I'm currently making a materials list so I can figure out what I need to order.

Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 18, 2015, 02:31:26 AM
Naturally I have a dream of this going into a boat someday. Probably won't happen. But I dream which is always enjoyable.
I've been thinking about Achim's thought that a friction roller driven by an electric motor is being used.
That would free up the need for air/steam and make it easier to show off demonstrate.
Could easily be hidden. Hm..... :thinking:

Anyway...see you all in a few days.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 24, 2015, 10:00:21 PM
Made some parts! Simple ones...but ones.  :cartwheel:
These are the rocker shafts. One for each side.
Still have to drill two holes in each for dowel pins.
That will be done on the mill. But I need to figure out how to do it so that the holes line up with the parts that also get pinned.

Not a great job. This engine is bigger than I thought and my tail stock ram doesn't have that much travel.
Stalled the mini-lathe several times. Especially when parting. T even complained from upstairs of the chatter and screaming (from the machine).

The frames should be fun. They are longer than the table on the mill.

But I made some parts.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/RockerShafts_zpsutfrbyrh.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/RockerShafts_zpsutfrbyrh.jpg.html)

Still need to order metal.

Some questions...

The plans call out BMS (bright mild steel) for many of the parts. At least the imperial drawings do. Some parts in the metric plans call out aluminum.
I don't see why I can't use aluminum for all the BMS parts. Except maybe the internal flywheel. We'll see.

But if I were to get/try some BMS...what would I order (i.e. what's the number)? e.g. For aluminum I look for 6061.

The metric calls out an aluminum cylinder while the imperial shows BMS. In both cases the piston is cast iron. Any reason why this couldn't be brass?
BTW...the imperial shows CI and metric shows CIG. I'm thinking CIG means cast iron or graphite.

If it helps any...most likely this will run on air. Steam is not out of the question...but probably not very often.

Well that's enough for now.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on December 24, 2015, 10:07:15 PM
Good to see the start! I printed out the plans and am hoping to start one next month after finishing up making new benches for the shop - given my small lathe/mill (sherline) plus the metal on hand, I'm going to make it 20% smaller than the plans show. In the meantime will be watching along!   :popcorn:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 24, 2015, 10:15:42 PM
Thanks crueby. You'll be done before me.  ;D
I expect to learn much from your thread. I'll be particularly interested in how you go about making decisions related to scaling.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on December 24, 2015, 10:39:21 PM
Gee Wally, whilst giving you a load of crap via PM, I didn't know you had started a build thread,   where's Marv  :lolb: :lolb:. Great to see you back at it pal.  T is just bored, send her out for cocktail onions or get her some Bose noise cancelling headphones and a treadmill  (got one,  barely used  :lolb:); Finish looks super BTW.  What tooling did you use for turning?

Cletus

Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on December 24, 2015, 10:49:06 PM
Good to see you starting up on this one Zee. I will be tailing along and by the way use any metal you like. Just use different metals were they rub together, like for cylinder and piston.

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 24, 2015, 11:10:55 PM
Okay bud...stop with the Wally. That kind of stuff sticks.  ;D
Must change my sign-off I guess.  :lolb:

Tooling...
Carbide inserts for turning. I like them well enough but I really need to learn to make my own cutters.
I used power feed (i.e. I engaged the screw cutting thingie) which gives (me) a better finish.

Center drilled, then peck drilled through with a 1/4" followed by a 31/64. Then reamed. I don't know if I should have taken smaller steps in drill size.
WD-40.

Confession #1: As I mentioned, the travel on my tail stock is short. So in the middle of things I had to stop and move the tail stock closer. Not a good thing and makes clearing chips pretty difficult.

Initially I reamed with a 0.499 thinking my cheap stuff tends to go big. (Oh were it so for all things.)
The 1/2" stainless steel shaft went in easily enough. But the rocker shaft was still mighty warm from parting.
I'd set it aside which allowed it to cool even more. I couldn't get it off.  :cussing:
A bit of rod and hammer got the shaft out.

Confession #2: And then I did the unthinkable. Re-chucked and reamed with 0.5. I don't like doing that. But it worked.
For the smaller rocker shaft I went right to the .5 reamer.

send her out

You must be kidding. Send her out? Issue an edict?  :lolb: :lolb: :lolb: It don't work that way around here. Instead of 40 years it would've been 40 seconds.
If that.
You funny.

I'm starting to realize more and more how big this engine is. I'm not good visualizing size and need to see/feel the actual parts. I just started on the rocker shaft...(oh crap...been calling those things I made rocker shafts...but they are rocker shaft SPACERs). The rocker shaft is nearly 6" long and makes the size more real to me. (...insert inappropriate jokes here...where here is over there...)

Thanks Don. Was writing when you posted.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: derekwarner on December 24, 2015, 11:21:21 PM
Merry Christmas Zee..... those material nominations sound a little  :ROFL:......

An aluminium cylinder with an iron piston is  :facepalm:.......as the wearing component is usually the less complicated or and softer material

A cast iron cylinder with a brass/bronze piston would sound a more conventional combination

Good quality cast iron [spheriodial graphite iron] is usually termed as SG Iron - [3D] is also a sub designation

SG iron has superior machinability, higher strength and better lubricity over standard cast iron [with flakes of graphite]

A number of iron casting kits as produced via conventional gravity fill methods contain porosity, voids and hard spots ...all which detract from the quality of the finished product

Having better qualities, SG iron is centrifugally cast as bar or hollow bar stock......and is readily available from metal merchants

Depending on your location, you may find SG iron as ... BS1789, ASTM A536 or AS1831

BTW.......by convention 3D SG iron is colour paint coded GREEN on the end of the bar by the manufacturers

Derek
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on December 25, 2015, 03:08:29 AM
Great to see you making chips again Zee. I'll be following along no matter how long it takes.

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: vcutajar on December 25, 2015, 09:05:37 AM
Nice to see you made a start.  Will surely be following along.

If you decide to do the cylinders in aluminium, as depicted in the metric plans, I think you also need to make a brass liner which is also shown in the metric plans.

Vince
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on December 25, 2015, 10:28:43 AM
I think the CIG is more likely to be Cast Iron - Grey, can't see any reason for making the cylinder or piston from SG Iron as there is no need for the added strength. Grey iron would be G250 or Durabar in your neck of the woods. Grey iron is also easier to machine than SG iron which is far more like a steel, I have machined an axle and several cranks from SG castings and it is nowhere near as nice to machine as grey iron.

Iron cylinder with an aluminium piston and iron/O rings would work very well or bronze cylinder. The aluminium piston allows us in smaller scales to get a correctly weighted piston rather than trying to replicate a hollow iron casting that would likely have been used on the full size and helps keep the engine balanced. Its a popular combination on model traction engines and I also use it on all my steam/air powered engines.

Two things to watch when using aluminium if you are thinking of using steam. 1. Is expansion for example the piston will expand inside a cylinder that won't expand so much as it gets hot. 2. Aluminium and other metals when in a damp enviroment can corrode and react rather badly.

1215 would be a suitable mild steel followed by 1010 and 1018

J
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: steve-de24 on December 25, 2015, 06:02:49 PM
Zee wrote :-
"The metric calls out an aluminum cylinder while the imperial shows BMS. In both cases the piston is cast iron. Any reason why this couldn't be brass? BTW...the imperial shows CI and metric shows CIG. I'm thinking CIG means cast iron or graphite."

On the metric plan the aluminium cylinder has a brass liner (part 16B at the right hand edge of sheet 3).
The key to the abbreviations is located at the bottom left corner of sheet 2,  CIG does indeed stand for cast iron or graphite.

Part 57 (top right of sheet 5) should be 3mm thick not 6.  The drawing of this part lacks the horizontal distances between the hole centres - I think they both should be 13mm.

Can I record my thanks to R Middleton and  J A M de Waal for the original design and the metric drawings.

Seasons greetings to all,  Steve








Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 25, 2015, 06:32:13 PM
Thanks guys. Very helpful.

I did see that the metric plan cylinder had a brass liner. Slipped my mind when I posted my question.

Thanks Jason for the info on BMS.

I hadn't spent as much time on the metric plans but I should. There's more interesting detail.
As an example, the cylinder has a bushing for the piston rod in the metric plans but not in the imperial. (At least I don't see it.)

Today's plans have been delayed.  :cussing: People showed up way earlier than expected.  :cartwheel:
The party now begins.  :wine1:
Hopefully we'll all be good and not see too many  :pinkelephant:

In order for the full family to be together we are celebrating presents tomorrow.

Best wishes to all of you.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 26, 2015, 12:57:19 PM
Couple of questions...

1) When it comes to pressed bushings...do you finish the bushing and then press or do you press a blank bushing and then drill? Or, in the prior case, re-ream? My fear of course having the hole crushed.

2) I have a mini-lathe and mini-mill. Is this model too large? I think I'm okay (i.e. it's not obvious to me) but I may as well know now. As example, the cylinders are 2.25 diameter and 2.1875 long.

Uh-oh...grand-daughter is up. It's Hoppie time.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on December 26, 2015, 01:18:18 PM
If you are buying in Oilite sintered bronze bushes then they are made slightly oversize so they squash down to size when fitted. If making your own its really down to how tight you get teh push fit and the wall thickness of teh bush as a thick bush won't compress as much as a thin one. You can re ream your own or make them a bit looser and loctite into place.

Should be doable on your lathe, if in doubt scale it down a bit say take the metric drawings and allow 1mm = 1/32" which will come out at about 75%.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 26, 2015, 09:10:31 PM
Thanks Jason.

Metal order placed.

Now for some tooling. Mainly taps and dies.
Probably a 1/2" reamer too. I have to believe I've nearly destroyed the one I have :)
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on December 26, 2015, 10:48:31 PM
Ok, I'll cut it out. Yeah, that's how I wound up being Cletus, however, I'll admit to being the "Beav" type my whole life :lolb:  Now, if your ordering taps, get those thread forming thingees Stan uses or at least the spiral cutting ones. If you are replacing a trashed reamer that doesn't count as a new tool purchase , really, it's in the rule book :stir:  Replace the one and buy a +.0005 or +.001 reamer as your new tool purchase. If you use a good drill rod, silver steel, or even good 12L14, with a little polish, you've got a good running fit. I'm done playing now :cheers:

Cletus
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 26, 2015, 11:15:10 PM
Thanks Cletus.

Why replace with an over or under? (I do have .001 over and .001 under besides the trashed .5)

As for taps...I'm looking now. Most of the tapping I need to do is blind hole or short through. I'm thinking of getting the full suite - taper, plug, bottom.
I know the taper is best for starting...but can a plug work in some cases? I ask because I suspect the starter may not get much bite if the hole is too short.

Couple of more questions...

1) The dies will be split rounds. My holder takes either 13/16 or 1". Any particular reason to choose one over the other?

2) Some of the tapping/threading on the drawings only show diameter...not thread count (or at least I don't see it). Most of the threading is fairly short (i.e. less than 1/2 inch). So I'm thinking a higher thread count might be better. What about these...

a) 1/2-20 instead of 13 or (or 28)
b) 3/8-24 instead of 16 (or 32)
c) 5/16-24 instead of 18 (or 32)
The 1/4 is more difficult for me. Seems the more common is 20 instead of 28. Just threading needed to hold a nut.

Keeping in mind my newbie-ness...higher thread count I believe gives a better joint but is harder to achieve? (Higher is probably more expensive but I'm not concerned about that...yet). Hm...that 1/2-20 is for a 1/4 distance. 5 turns if I'm lucky but more likely 3-4.

Thanks again!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: 10KPete on December 27, 2015, 02:06:36 AM
The answer to your questions about thread pitch is right there in the last part of your last sentence...

Divide 13 by 4.....

Pete
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: cfellows on December 27, 2015, 04:30:10 AM
Zee, I use nothing but plug taps and bottoming taps.  Don't think I even own a taper tap.  However, I do use a tapping guide to get the tap straight.

Chuck
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on December 27, 2015, 08:16:49 AM
1. upto about 1/4" I would go with the 13/16, 1" over that as you don't need the leverage on the smaller sizes and a big die stock and small thread can be harder to keep straight.

2. aim for 1.5 x diameter if not shown

1/4 x 28 would be my choice and is in proportion to the other threads you list and easier to cut than 1/4 x 20

The tapping drill size you use will have a big effect on what taps you can use, for a large thread depth then you will need the taper, if you are only going for 60-65% then you can get away without the taper. Material and thread pitch also comes into it - you can happily use a 1/4 x 40 plug into brass but try that in stainless with a 1/4 x 20 and it won't be very easy :-\ I use taper taps 80% of the time
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on December 27, 2015, 08:23:49 AM
Just had another look at the drawings, these larger 1/2" and 3/8" threads are for steam fittings and glands, you want fine threads on those, if it were me making the engine I would be using 3/8 x 40 and 1/2 x 32 or 40, 1/2 x 20 is far to coarse a thread for these type of uses. I'd also suggest using these fine threads on a lot of the rods as it will give you finer adjustment of their length.

So my list would be

1/2 x 40 or 32
3/8 x 40
5/16 x 40
1/4 x 40 (1/4x28 for fixings)

Over here these are all termed ME threads you would have to either get these or find the nearest UNS or UNEF

This is what you should be looking for on teh glands, this one is 3/8 x 40
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on December 27, 2015, 02:47:54 PM
Zee you can get your tap and dies here and look under Model engineer tap and dies. They are located in the states. This is where I got mine........http://britishfasteners.com/taps/model-engineer-taps.html

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 27, 2015, 03:00:30 PM

Thanks guys. I can't express how much I appreciate the help and time you're giving me.

Jason, your comment about ME threads seems to explain why I didn't see any specification for thread pitch. I came across this at https://britishfasteners.com/threads/ME.html

quote:
ME = Model Engineer Threads
These come in 32 and 40 tpi sizes
No official across flats dimensions are given for ME ( Model Engineer ) threads as nuts and bolts are not commercially available
:unquote

The included chart shows for a given diameter there is one thread pitch.

 :lolb: Don...your post came in while I was typing this. Scary, no?
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on December 27, 2015, 03:51:35 PM
The included chart shows for a given diameter there is one thread pitch.


Look again Zee, 1/4" and above you can get two pitches 40 and 32 tpi. We also sometimes use 26tpi just to confuse things more this is Brass or cycle thread but can be used on larger fittings.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Jo on December 27, 2015, 04:06:57 PM
There is also 60 tpi  :Love:

But don't confuse 26 tpi brass with 26 tpi cycle  :hellno:

Jo
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 27, 2015, 05:16:25 PM
Look again Zee, 1/4" and above you can get two pitches 40 and 32 tpi.

 :Doh:

We also sometimes use 26tpi just to confuse things more this is Brass or cycle thread but can be used on larger fittings.
But don't confuse 26 tpi brass with 26 tpi cycle

All of which sent me off googling. Oh thanks for that.

My head hurts.  :insane:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 27, 2015, 06:28:27 PM
Looks like I can get most of the taps/dies from Enco. Most of the taps in sets of 3 (taper, plug, bottom).
I looked at BritishFasteners but they are a bit more pricey.
However, I'm not having much luck with the larger taps (5/16-40, 3/8-40, and 1/2-40).
BritishFasterners has them...but I'd like a sanity check.

They call them out as -T or -B which I take to mean taper and bottom. I don't see a plug.
I'm thinking not a problem. Right?
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on December 27, 2015, 06:46:13 PM
Zee - Another place with a big selection of taps/dies and decent prices is Victor Machinery - I've filled in a bunch of sizes from there:

www.victornet.com

Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Hugh Currin on December 27, 2015, 07:06:50 PM
Zee:

I just checked and MSC Industrial had all these. Didn't look close enough to see what types, but the basic thread form was there. Also don't know how relatively expensive they are. I think MSC runs a little higher than Enco.

Hugh
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on December 27, 2015, 07:12:10 PM
Zee, if you have a + and a - reamer your golden. Now, you can replace your .500" and report it as a replacement tool and get to buy another new tool also since replacements don't count as a tooling purchases.   :mischief:. I maybe wrong, but, if you are going to build to imperial measurements,  I'd stick with standard size UNC or UNF  threads (price and availability) , if you are affixing any piping,  you may have to look into the ME threads for the piping . PMR does a great tutorial on what will work and not work on the ME piping threads. Glass empty;  ta,

Cletus
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 27, 2015, 07:53:44 PM
Crueby - Thanks. I checked their site. A bit confusing to me but I'll review again.
Hugh - Thanks. Yes. I did check MSC and they seemed a bit more than a little more expensive.

Cletus - Thanks. Yes piping. That's the next thing I have to look for. Seems always difficult to get copper tubing of the dimensions desired but I haven't looked for a while. I also need to find out if brass tubing is a sufficient replacement and what's available. But then...I like the color difference that copper would lend.

Off to place an order.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 29, 2015, 08:35:56 PM
 :cussing:

Broke my 1/8" 2-flute end mill. I went real slow but probably too deep.  :slap:
The rod is 303 stainless steel. No idea what my actual spindle speed was. Seemed fine.

This thread is sorely lacking in photos so I had no choice but to show this. The piece that broke off is to the left of the slot.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/BustedEndMill_zpsii3a3rf6.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/BustedEndMill_zpsii3a3rf6.jpg.html)

The blue and scribe lines were there for a sanity check while I turned the handwheels.
I was surprised by the jagged stuff along the far side.

This is the kind of boo-boo, when just starting out, that can be pretty disappointing and frustrating.  :'(

But it's a double-ended end mill. And I have a 4-flute too.
I'll get back at it once I'm done  :rant:

Oops. Sorry dear. I'll keep it down. Pay no attention to the dum-dum in the basement.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 29, 2015, 09:31:55 PM
At it anyway.
Smaller bites this time.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/BearingShaft_zpsdal5reac.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/BearingShaft_zpsdal5reac.jpg.html)

It probably doesn't matter (it's not seen) but the slot is a bit ugly half-way along one wall. I'm thinking something moved when the bit broke and the slot is a bit wider for about a third of the length. I don't think it will affect anything and is easy enough to make another (busted bit and all) later.

Buy hey...some progress.  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on December 29, 2015, 11:00:51 PM
Zee did you make one deep cut or multi passes? That raised edge looks like the endmill was having trouble cutting. Either it was dull or you were to aggressive. It is a start buddy and keep it coming........... :ThumbsUp:

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on December 30, 2015, 12:47:49 AM
Carl, did you have the y-axis locked? Given that you were cutting stainless and with a small end mill also, it doesn't take much table  movement for the end mill to grab and break. Could account for the roughness along one wall as well.  As Don mentioned, shallower cuts should help too as you no doubt found out on try #2. Still progress though as you say, one part at a time!!

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 30, 2015, 02:23:40 AM
Don...no, that was my mistake. I've always done very small cuts but this time I went for it. To be honest, I remember a post (or personal post) from our past friend Vernon who had questioned why I didn't 'go for it'. So I did. But I think he was coming from a more industrial background.

I don't think the cutter was dull. Unless it came that way. I've used it very little..and even then on aluminum.

Bill...yep. Second pass went pretty good and more comfortable. Too bad something had moved. Luckily it was on the poorer shaft.

One learns more from mistakes anyway.

Somewhat discombobulated right now. Our daughters surprised us by booking us into a B&B near Gettysburg, complete with dinner at a nearby restaurant. And we get a 90 minute massage. 40th anniversary. That in itself is surprising to me. I am a fortunate man.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on December 30, 2015, 03:12:47 AM
Very thoughtful daughters!! And congratulations on the 40 years!!

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 30, 2015, 10:42:46 PM
Thanks Bill. Have to tell you I shed a few tears when they did that.

 :whoohoo: Made a 'real' part today.

This is the steam inlet gland. Simple turning and threading...but filled with anxiety for me...it's been so long.
I haven't drilled the 4 mounting holes yet. That's to be done on the mill.
Behind the part is a 1/4 diameter, 1/8 long piece that fits into the steam chest cover.
Gotta say I'm happy.
0.156 thru hole. The thread is 5/16-40. (Thanks Jason.)

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/23_SteamInletGland_zps0qmp8xlt.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/23_SteamInletGland_zps0qmp8xlt.jpg.html)

I started on a nut but realized I either need a tool, or need to make one, to make the hole for the internal thread.

But here's where I need some  :help:

Picture a nut, internal thread 5/16-40 and a 0.156 thru hole.
Tubing of 0.156 OD (.125 ID).

What I don't get is how the tubing is held. I can't see that soldering would be used.
Is the tube put through the nut and then flared?
If so...I could use some tips on how.
Or can some one point me to a build that has something similar.

Wait...what the 'crap' am I doing here? This is my 40th anniversary.
Sees ya. Wouldn't wanta bees ya.  :whoohoo: :whoohoo: :whoohoo:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Bluechip on December 30, 2015, 10:49:01 PM
Looks a bit like the tube needs an 'olive'.

The back-nut compresses it to grip the tube against the fitting.

See if I can find a pic. for you.

Dave

This sort of thing:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BRASS-OLIVES-IMPERIAL-BARREL-OLIVE-PLUMBING-WATER-PIPE-GAS-COMPRESSION-OLIVES-/270817174837

Car brake pipes use them.

OR ... Union nut & nipples  :embarassed:  Like thus:

https://maccmodels.co.uk/live-steam-fittings/union-nuts-and-nipples.html

Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 30, 2015, 10:52:55 PM
Thanks Dave!
Do you mean like the stuff used in plumbing when hooking up an ice-maker or hot water butler?
I could see that but it's strange nothing is in the plans.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Bluechip on December 30, 2015, 10:59:10 PM
Zee, modified previous post.
The union nipple is soldered in.
The olive is just slid on the tube and the back-nut then squeezes it onto the tube. Then mostly un-removable.  :ThumbsUp:

Dave

It looks like you should be making a 3/16" Nipple and a nut like this;

https://maccmodels.co.uk/live-steam-fittings/union-nuts-and-nipples/5-16-x-32-nuts-for-3-16-nipples.html

Except yours is 40 TPI, not 32 TPI. So, somewhere it SHOULD instruct you to make the nipple & the nut ??

I don't have your plans to hand ...  :D so ...

Dave
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 30, 2015, 11:04:56 PM
Thanks Dave. The olive is what I was thinking of when you mentioned it.
I didn't know about the kind in your second link though. Interesting.

Still...I'm troubled that nothing shows in the plans about this. But maybe that's usual?

Thanks again.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Bluechip on December 30, 2015, 11:22:39 PM
The soldered nipple and nut should really be in the plans if that's what it should be.  :headscratch:
But they are available from UK suppliers at least, so maybe the plans assume 'bought in' parts ?? Dunno.

For the odd few I've made, I use the nipple/nut arrangement because they are easy to make in the shop. The olives, at least for small bore tube, are often soft copper as they need to deform to make an effective seal. Not so easy ..

Maybe wait for some other, more competent, replies.  ;D  Although there aren't many options available for tube joints.

Dave



Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: bruedney on December 30, 2015, 11:27:49 PM
Nice Carl

Did you cut the thread on the lathe?

I am making a Julius design and have been using the taps and dies that I have. http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,4882.0.html (http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,4882.0.html)

I am not sure I can get my lathe to go slow enough to turn up to a shoulder. I have a low speed brushless DC motor that I am looking to retro fit to give more control

I have the metric plans of this to look at next so following with interest.

Bruce
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 30, 2015, 11:40:17 PM
Yeah Dave. I'm sure others will pop in.

Bruce - no. I have no skill (yet) in threading on the lathe. This was done with a die. The part was in the lathe and I have a die holder that I use in the tailstock.
I think the metric plans are more interesting and give more detail.


What? Yes dear...I'm still in the basement. Be right there.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on December 31, 2015, 01:12:43 AM
First post 5:42pm...last post 6:40pm...pushing your luck there a bit Zee...we do want you to make it to 41  :LittleDevil: Nice looking part though !!

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on December 31, 2015, 07:43:05 AM
You need a nipple to fit the nut and the 5/32" hole in the nut needs increasing to clear the nipple 3/16" or 7/32" depending on how big you make the nipple. I'll sketch one out for you later. What angle have you done the chamfer ob the inlet? should be 60deg cut with a ctr drill not a 90deg CSK but if it is CSK you can get away with it.

Couple of nuts and nipples I made last week

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Engineering/Tidman%20Organ%20Engine/DSC00518_zps01yywrbp.jpg)

A small boring bar or 2-flute endmill held in the toolpost and used as a boring bar will give the flat bottom to the tapping hole in the nut.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on December 31, 2015, 08:58:57 AM
5/16x40 is actually larger than the usual thread used for 5/32" pipe fittings but as the part is made I've drawn a nipple to suit, the nut will need drilling through 7/32"

Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: vcutajar on December 31, 2015, 11:16:51 AM
Nice to see that you have started on the Monitor.  I have saved the files but have not printed them yet.

When I come to that part most probably it will be a soft soldered job like I did on the Corliss.

(http://www.nam-engineering.com/cm/albums/userpics/10009/CORLISS200360.jpg)

Vince
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 31, 2015, 02:43:28 PM
Bill - my luck held out.  ;D

Jason - thanks. Well I think that confirms your thinking Dave.

1) The chamfer. I didn't see a dimension on the drawing. The drawing looked like 45 degree (90) but without knowing about the olive/nipple I didn't know why. I'd used what I believe to be an 82 degree (41 degree slope) but can remake the part (I have to make another anyway. The plan calls for two.)....Actually, I think I can simply run the center drill in to correct.

2) Thanks for the tip on the 2-flute end-mill. I don't have a small enough boring bar and was starting to think about how to make one.

3) What is the thread pitch on the inlet/outlet of those valves?

4) Just making sure - CSK is countersink right?

5) 'zeenipple'  :lolb:

Vince - That may be difficult if I go by plan. Tubing has one of those glands on each end (one per cylinder). But I'm thinking of cutting the tubing in half and using a pipe tee to join them. So your suggestion will be kept in mind. (And the nut can still be used to retain the overall look.)

Now to put the zeenipple in my CAD and see if I have all this right.

Thanks for the help!

Oops - one more question...

For external threading - what should the rod be turned down to before using the die? I thought there was a formula but can't find it.
Turning to 5/16 for a 5/16 die did not go well. I had to shave a few thou off.
Now it could be that my measurement was off or that the die needs adjusting.
Which brings up another...how does one go about adjusting a die?

Apologies for all the newbie questions. Hopefully the frequency will drop off soon.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Bob Unitt on December 31, 2015, 03:27:39 PM
Nice to see that you have started on the Monitor.  I have saved the files but have not printed them yet.

When I come to that part most probably it will be a soft soldered job like I did on the Corliss.

(http://www.nam-engineering.com/cm/albums/userpics/10009/CORLISS200360.jpg)

Vince
I did a soft-soldered joint like that on a Hercules steam crane. The first few runs were OK but eventually the steam temperature melted the solder, and the steam pressure blew it all out of the joint. I ended up making new parts and silver-soldering them together.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on December 31, 2015, 04:11:43 PM
Bill - my luck held out.  ;D

Jason - thanks. Well I think that confirms your thinking Dave.

1) The chamfer. I didn't see a dimension on the drawing. The drawing looked like 45 degree (90) but without knowing about the olive/nipple I didn't know why. I'd used what I believe to be an 82 degree (41 degree slope) but can remake the part (I have to make another anyway. The plan calls for two.)....Actually, I think I can simply run the center drill in to correct.

You can use what taper you have or just recut with the centre drill

3) What is the thread pitch on the inlet/outlet of those valves?

They are 1/4" x 40 both ends

4) Just making sure - CSK is countersink right?

Yep

5) 'zeenipple'  :lolb:

 I'm saying nothing  :-X

For external threading - what should the rod be turned down to before using the die? I thought there was a formula but can't find it.
Turning to 5/16 for a 5/16 die did not go well. I had to shave a few thou off.
Now it could be that my measurement was off or that the die needs adjusting.
Which brings up another...how does one go about adjusting a die?

5/16" thread should go straight onto 5/16" bar, did you open te die up a little



One other thing, usual convention is to have those 4 studs that mount the fitting to the valve chest cover at 45deg.

And another thing, don't forget to slip the nuts onto the pipe before you solder on the nipples

Alibre part file attached
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 31, 2015, 04:21:15 PM
Thanks Jason.

I didn't touch the die adjustment. Is there a procedure for doing that accurately? Perhaps find an existing thread and adjust until cuts or is tight?

Drawing shows the studs at 90deg but no problem to put at 45deg.

And another thing, don't forget to slip the nuts onto the pipe before you solder on the nipples

 ;D

Bob- good comment. I don't know if Vince is/will be running only on air.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on December 31, 2015, 04:29:30 PM
Usual way is to make your nut first as you can't adjust the tap and then cut the male thread to suit
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Jo on December 31, 2015, 04:49:47 PM
Hi Zee, having had a play with your nipple  ::) I see you are still learning Alibre  :)

Have you considered drawing a partial cross section of the part and then revolving it?

Jo
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on December 31, 2015, 04:57:44 PM
On a simple part like that I often find it as quick to just do a few extrusions as though you were making the part. Also simple to just alter one of the extrusions to draw a similar nipple for another size of pipe.

BTW did you understand the dimensions :LittleDevil:

J

PS your Cubify is no good to us
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 31, 2015, 05:25:32 PM
I see you are still learning Alibre
Not me. I'm using CubifyDesign. The drawing was from Jason. (Is that what you were referring to?)
Have you considered drawing a partial cross section of the part and then revolving it?
Yes. I've done that for several parts.

BTW did you understand the dimensions :LittleDevil:
Thought I did. But your emoticon has me worried  :-\
PS your Cubify is no good to us
Well gee. That's too bad.  ;D

Regarding Alibre...I find it confusing figuring out what's available. GeomagicDesign? Xpress? Pricing as well.
CubifyDesign works in a similar way so I don't think I'd have any problem switching.
CubifyDesign cost me $200 a few years ago and does everything I wanted save a couple or three things...
a) It doesn't seem to support animating a follower and cam profile. Not an issue now...but someday.
b) I don't think I can animate a clock escapement. Again...not an issue now.
c) I haven't figured out how to create a tree of sub-assemblies. Also not a biggie. But one has to be careful. If a sub-assembly has moving parts and that sub-assembly in put into another assembly, then all moving parts become fixed. Have to wait until final assembly to insert moving parts.

But then I haven't done any searching for possible plug-ins.

The ability to animate is pretty important to me.

I would have no problem switching to another CAD. However, I would balk at anything more than about $400 and won't consider anything that dies after a set time period (i.e. subscription).

What is the specific name/version of the program you are using?
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on December 31, 2015, 05:46:16 PM
Zee that reply was aimed at Jo

My earlier Alibre won't open newer Geomagic or Cubify files, thought you also has Alibre

I know you can understand imperial ;)

J
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 31, 2015, 06:05:01 PM
I know you can understand imperial ;)

Yep. Metric too. And then there's the unpublished measurement system I've often used for many of my parts...zee-eyeball.  ;D
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Jo on December 31, 2015, 06:07:20 PM
Sorry Zee I missed it is Jason that has not progressed to rotating things  :-X

Jo

 :lolb:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 31, 2015, 06:28:32 PM
Just fooling around...

The dimensions on the nipple aren't right.
And several questions came to mind but I'll save them for later.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on December 31, 2015, 06:38:42 PM
Sorry Zee I missed it is Jason that has not progressed to rotating things  :-X

Jo

 :lolb:

You will be pleased to know that I did revolve my balls

On other disadvantage of drawing a section and then revolving is that if the part is threaded or drilled you won't get the thread call out, hole dia and depth automatically put on the drawing so have to manually add them. By doing them as you draw the part they will appear on teh drawing.

Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 31, 2015, 06:53:56 PM
Usual way is to make your nut first as you can't adjust the tap and then cut the male thread to suit

Meant to comment on this. Thanks.

Still waiting for some taps and metal.  :(

You will be pleased to know that I did revolve my balls

Ouch
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 03, 2016, 06:16:42 PM
Still waiting for metal.  :'(
In the meantime, I had some stainless steel shafts of needed diameter (from a previously failed non-metalworking project).

This is the Valve Rod End Pin.
Simple turning.

I have only one nut and it's the wrong size so I took a run at making a 5-40 nut as well as a washer.
The washer came out fine - maybe a little thick. I zee-eyeballed it.
The nut is lousy. I don't think I'll make any more until I gain sufficient experience and/or figure out how to round them off.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/69_ValveRodEndPin_zpsfwfj5vbi.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/69_ValveRodEndPin_zpsfwfj5vbi.jpg.html)

And assembled up.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/69_ASM_ValveRodEndPin_zpsdekqovjo.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/69_ASM_ValveRodEndPin_zpsdekqovjo.jpg.html)

I'm not happy with the thickness of the nut (or maybe the length of the pin's thread). I want the pin to portrude maybe a 1/32 past the nut.
Going to order some nuts (and maybe washers), measure the stackup, and redo the end pin. The nut I made is 3/32 thick. Maybe a 1/16 is best?

I've not machined stainless steel before. It machined well and die-threading was a breeze.

But I'm still not happy with the finish I get on stainless or any steel for that matter. I do okay with aluminum and brass.

I looked into feeds and speeds but find it pretty noggin-knocking. Besides, I have no idea what the spindle speed is or feed rate. It's all done by zee-feel and zee-hearing.

Any tips? Is faster spindle speed needed?
Is there some chart that's more appropriate to my hobby pursuit (i.e. not industrial)?

I was using an index tool (which may be in poor shape and no doubt doesn't help). And cutting oil.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on January 04, 2016, 10:00:56 AM
Boy did you leave the door wide open with the statement on nuts  :mischief:, but nope, not gonna do it :lolb:, let's just say that you need a lesson from Dave Otto, tell him Vern, best darn looking nuts in town :ThumbsUp:. I am thinking you will get better finishes by exploring other cutting tool options. I'm going to try and attach a good "guide line" from LMS. Notice the difference in the speeds for HHS vs. carbide. Most home shop machines just aren't fast enough spinners for carbide in the "softer" metals we cut IMHO. I have been using the Warner HHS stuff I picked up at CF and like it so far.  Since I've never been good at grinding a bit,  this gives me HSS with insert ease of use.  Anyhoo,  pin looks great;  nut  :LittleDevil:, nope not a gonna do it  :lolb:.

http://littlemachineshop.com/Reference/CuttingSpeeds.php

Cletus
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Jo on January 04, 2016, 10:18:12 AM
Nuts: someone told me off for having a fascination with the details of both my nuts and their studs  :(.

Zee what length are your nuts? It is important to get the length of your nuts correct relative to the diameter of your thread. I've got a look up chart for when I do my nuts and it also provides the necessary nut allowance for my studs so that they fit just right  :embarassed:

And have you thought about the shape of your nuts: Double or single chamfered, single always looks better on a washer but double is necessary if you have no washers and don't want them digging in.

Jo
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on January 04, 2016, 10:29:45 AM
It's not only the length of the nuts but also the hex A/F that affects the look. A lot of commercial metric and US nuts have a large hex relative to the thread diameter, look back at Brain's rocker arms on his opposed twin for an example, I assume these are stock nuts and then compare them with mine on the same engine. Looks like your nut is based on a commercial one too

If you use Jo's BA chart and pic a matching diameter thread eg for 5-40 use the 5BA nut sizes you won't go far wrong with the look of your nuts

(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow026/ROCKER%20ARM%20CLOSE-UP%20001_zpstb3rfaqq.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Engineering/Nemett%20Ocelot%20NE15OT/DSC02501_zpska4dmyby.jpg)
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 04, 2016, 11:56:05 AM
Thanks Eric. I'd come across that chart when I was looking around the other day. I'll study on it more. I also need to figure out how to tell what speeds I'm running at...or maybe build a cheap tach.

Thanks Jo and Jason. When I started on this I put together a chart to convert BA threads and nuts to imperial. I did some searching around to get measurements of commercial nuts. The one you see was for the 1/8" threads which I took to be 5-40 or 5BA. I don't know what's typical for nuts in modeling and tried to use something that 'looked' right.

The dimensions for this nut was 1/4" across flats (6.35mm - slightly larger than Jo's chart) and 3/32" length (2.38mm - slightly smaller than Jo's chart).

Personally I think it's too thick.

As for chamfer...I was originally going for double chamfer. I simply think it looks better and more usual. You might not tell in the picture but I slightly chamfered one side. But I think my method is lousy, it turned out lousy, and I didn't do the other side.

Thanks Eric for the reminder on Dave's nuts. I need to review both his and Jo's nut making methods.

There's quite a few nuts in this project (at least to me). So I may get some commercial ones. I think they're fairly prominent in the model and I don't want my poor nuts to detract.

Thanks all. Very helpful.

Oh...Jo...what is 'nut allowance'? Is that the amount of stud needed? i.e. the length of the nut plus some amount that the stud sticks past the nut?
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on January 04, 2016, 12:46:55 PM


Personally I think it's too thick.


As for chamfer...I was originally going for double chamfer. I simply think it looks better and more usual.

An interesting choice of word - "Usual"  We are used to seeing commercial nuts which are indeed flatter and more often than not double chamfered which is often due to the way they are made by stamping them out.

Look at any photos of old steam or gas engines and you will find the nuts are turned, chamfered on one side and generally of a taller nature and they were quite usual at the time.

If you are going to buy commercial nuts look at what you are getting, here we can get say M3 nuts from hundreads of places at very cheap prices but they are like the left hand one in the photo below but there are a few suppliers about who make turned ones that look correct on a period engine like the one on the right

I took this photo to illustrate the same thing on another forum, the nut on the left is a mass produced stamped out one, think it was 1/4" BSF which is 26tpi, can't remember the middle one but the one on teh right is what I made and looks far more in keeping with teh period.

(http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/sites/7/images/member_albums/44290/512626.jpg)
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Jo on January 04, 2016, 01:08:42 PM
The dimensions for this nut was 1/4" across flats (6.35mm - slightly larger than Jo's chart) and 3/32" length (2.38mm - slightly smaller than Jo's chart).

Personally I think it's too thick.

The thickness of the nut is based on the tensile strength of the material and depth of the thread (bigger studs = more thread depth as a rule). If your nut is not thick enough you cannot torque the nut up to get the full holding strength of the bolt/stud and if you do its threads will strip  :'(.  In addition you don't get the full width of the nut of threads providing the holding force :disappointed: you lose strength where they countersink either side of the nuts so you end up with less distance of threads relative to the thickness of the nut. If you want a rule of thumb then the nut should be about the same thickness as the diameter of the thread (larger ones fractionally less, smaller ones fractionally more  ;))

(Don't forget the rule of thumb that a stud should be threaded into the material by one and half times the diameter of the stud so that it is capable of holding at the full tensile strength of the material)


Oh...Jo...what is 'nut allowance'? Is that the amount of stud needed? i.e. the length of the nut plus some amount that the stud sticks past the nut?

When you are working on your studs it is that extra bit of length so that their nuts go on and leaves the required one and a half threads  :Love: (the bit of the stud that is rounded over plus a full thread to insure they are securing on fully formed threads both on the nut and stud)

Jo
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: sshire on January 04, 2016, 01:24:42 PM
Zee
Once Dave Otto explained nut making, I've generally made my own. That said, on small nuts, I've been very happy with the look of American Model Engineering Supply's fasteners. The nuts are to the "Heavy Hex" spec and just seem to look right.

http://www.americanmodeleng.com/id41.html
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: kvom on January 04, 2016, 01:26:52 PM
For me, life is too short to be making nuts, esp. smaller than 1/4".  I buy them from American Model Engineering as they are the proper proportion for models.

Their website shows the proportions of their nuts:  http://www.americanmodeleng.com/id41.html  5-40 nut is 3/16 acress flats and .108" high.

Edit-  I see Stan posted the same time as I.   :cheers:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 04, 2016, 01:52:26 PM
Jason - yes the word 'usual' was intentional and I expected to get some feedback on that.  ;D Good info.
Jo - thanks. That helps a lot.
Stan and Kurt - thanks for the link.

Back at work today. Sigh. It was a wonderful vacation.

Hopefully the metal comes in today.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 05, 2016, 12:21:39 AM
 :pinkelephant: Metal has arrived.
  :rant: But back to work and less available time.
 :cussing: And my back is out.

I know it's stress. But from what? Holidays? Going back to work? Eric? I know it's not Jo.  :lolb:
On the plus side, T did my job tonight...the dishes.

On muscle relaxers...and I know I shouldn't do it...but...liquid relaxer too.

Did some hunting around for Dave Otto's nuts. Haven't found them yet. Will look again later.
But if anyone has a quick link I'd appreciate it...but don't spend time doing my work for me.

Given what Jason and Jo said...I'm still on the page of making my own nuts. We'll see how it goes.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on January 05, 2016, 12:36:05 AM
Anniversary and now back out. Yeah, we're stupid  :lolb:

Cletus
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on January 05, 2016, 12:49:55 AM
Hi Zee

I have been keeping my head down here :-[
I think what you are looking for is buried in my Pacific build thread; which by the way I need to post a couple of updates to.

http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,1326.70.html

Starting at post #70

Dave
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on January 05, 2016, 07:45:34 AM
I only tend to make the larger nuts above 2BA, the sizes of the nuts in those links look OK so may as well use those for the small stuff.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Jo on January 05, 2016, 07:53:45 AM
I make the nuts I cannot get or if the ones I can get look  >:( horrible.

The advantage of doing your own is that they can all be in 303 Stainless so never again do you have to worry about your nuts (or studs) getting rusty :embarassed:

Jo
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 05, 2016, 10:03:13 AM
Anniversary and now back out. Yeah, we're stupid

Oh please don't upset our friends. That's the royal 'we' right?  ;D
But no, the problem started a few weeks ago and flared yesterday. I'm thinking work related.

Dave - thanks very much. It was really worthwhile to revisit that thread!
I'm still confused though on how you put the bevel on. Angle the compound? How do you calculate the distance (or depth of cut)?

Thanks Jason. Good to know if I end up buying. The model uses quite a few (seems to me) 6BA. I believe that's 4-40 in my world. 3/16 (4.76mm) across flats. Small.

Thanks Jo. What material do you use for studs? And, for this model, any reason not to make nuts from brass or aluminum? (I'm favoring brass but want to draw it up and see if the color contrast is pleasing.)
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Jo on January 05, 2016, 10:11:54 AM
What material do you use for studs? And, for this model, any reason not to make nuts from brass or aluminum? (I'm favoring brass but want to draw it up and see if the color contrast is pleasing.)

I use 303 Stainless.

For material you need to consider if they need tensile strength. The threads in brass big end nuts would quickly be ripped out. I would never choose Ali for nuts or studs :ShakeHead:

Jo
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: sshire on January 05, 2016, 11:29:19 AM
Zee
FYI. This is what I've been using. Any smaller, I buy the heavy hex.

https://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?id=14&step=2&top_cat=1
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 05, 2016, 08:53:15 PM
Okay so I'm scared. As simple as this project may be...this is the biggest thing I've attempted. And usually I've had instructions with past projects.
So I'll be asking questions as I go along. If I get answers...fantastic. If I don't...I'll give it a go anyway and take the flak.
(I know I'll get answers...but I'm sorry for people to take their time on what is probably things they no longer have to think about.)

The frames.

1/8" by 3". Two of them are 14" long and the other two are 13" long. Too long for my mill and too tall to lie flat in my vise.
My plan is to stack them.
Somewhere in the slots and near the top within the squares I'll drill some holes that will be removed later.
Make some sleeves to close fit the holes and use bolts through them to make the stack.

Stand the thing in the vise (total thickness is 1/2") and mill the top as my reference.
The bottom will/may not be square but that shouldn't be an issue.
Scribe the outline and have a go at milling.
Do the little holes first so I can use them as additional clamp points.
The bearing hole (the biggie round one) will be bored.

The concern will be the top of one leg relative to the other. Or for that matter, the top of either leg to my reference.

I guess 'Okay?' is my question.  ;D

While I'm here, and because I can't get this project out of my head, the cylinder...
Diameter is 2.25" (57mm), 2.188" (55.6mm) long with a 1" (25.4mm) bore.
I've been reading up on mandrels.
What do you think about using a 1" bar, tapped on one end. and sandwich the cylinder with a screw and large washer?
I think all that's needed is to turn a finish on the cylinder. Small cuts. Everything else is mill work.

Thanks




Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: vcutajar on January 05, 2016, 08:58:01 PM
Regarding the frames, I was thinking of having them laser cut and be done with it.  Are you going to make them out of aluminium or steel?

Vince
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 05, 2016, 09:21:05 PM
Aluminum.
I've pretty much swapped out all the BMS parts for aluminum.

If it matters any, I don't expect to ever run this on steam. Not ready for that yet.  ;D

Thinking more about the 'legs' or tabs that stick out...the idea is to touch off the milled top as reference.
The trick is probably going to be making sure the top is level. I should be able to do that with an indicator and use shims if necessary.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: vcutajar on January 05, 2016, 09:40:08 PM
I have not as yet decided on the material choice for the frames but I think my preference would be to do them in steel.  They are longish items and steel would be, I think, stiffer.

Vince
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 05, 2016, 10:08:50 PM
Yes the steel would be stiffer.
I still wonder why the imperial plans call out BMS while the metric calls out aluminum.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: kvom on January 05, 2016, 10:11:44 PM
I made the Westbury paddle engine frames from aluminum and have regretted it.  Too much flex, although now I've worked around it.  I'd go with steel here.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 05, 2016, 10:19:36 PM
I still wonder why the imperial plans call out BMS while the metric calls out aluminum.

I'm thinking it (the plans) shows you can build with either. And I remember some of Bogs' stuff about using what's on hand.
I don't know enough about stress etc. but the bars and spacers that put the frame together, besides the 1/2" stuff along the top may help.

kvom...was the flex experienced during machining or assembling? What did you have to do to work around it?

The nice thing about this hobby is that (usually) parts can be remade and/or replaced with other material should the need arise.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: kvom on January 05, 2016, 10:26:34 PM
The problems I had on the paddle engine was lack of bracing until everything was together.  Even then, tightening of staybolts could move things out of alignment enough to increase friction. 1/8 is quite thin.

Sheet steel is pretty cheap compared to aluminum as well.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on January 05, 2016, 10:36:42 PM

Dave - thanks very much. It was really worthwhile to revisit that thread!
I'm still confused though on how you put the bevel on. Angle the compound? How do you calculate the distance (or depth of cut)?


Hi Zee

I usually use an insert boring bar that I have in a tool holder ready to go; run the lathe in reverse and cut on the back side. Set the compound at 20 degrees and cut until the chamfer becomes a full circle or just a squeak more.
If you make a threaded mandrill to hold the nuts and face them all to the same length then the chamfers will all be the same as long as you cut to the same reading on each one.

Dave
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 05, 2016, 10:50:09 PM
Thanks kvom. For the small material I use, cost isn't so much an issue. But now I have the aluminum. I can see how it would be more of a problem with the paddle wheels. (A thread I enjoyed and will hopefully be using as a reference. I have the engine drawn up.)

Thanks Dave. Much appreciated!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on January 06, 2016, 02:06:02 AM
Hi Zee

Just kind of thinking out loud here: if I were to make these on a manual machine I would consider making a fixture plate. It would be long enough to hold the part but you would only work on one end at a time. You could have stops (small dowel pins) to locate the stock. Some holes drilled and tapped in the fixture to hold your part down. Once the fixture was dialed in and tightened down to the mill table each part could be installed up against the pins tightened down and an operation completed. Set up some indicators, use your DRO and make some sharpie notes on the table so each part is machined to the same numbers.

After all the operations are finished for the left end the fixture would be shifted to the left dialed in and then all the operations on the right end completed. If you stack them and make an error you have scrapped everything.

Drill and tap the same hole pattern in the fixture that is in the parts and use screws through holes to help hold the part down while machining the large cut outs. you could also make some small toe clamps to hold the part down while you machine the large cut outs.

The frame where all other parts are mounted to needs to be as accurate as you can make it.

Oh yea, I know you have a plan but I would consider using CRS bar stock for the frame.

Dave
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 06, 2016, 11:56:04 AM
Thanks Dave.

I don't have a DRO and, given my experience and equipment, I have serious doubts I can repeat the operations and get accurately similar results.

Do-overs are still a big part of my life.  ;D I think the biggest risk I will have is inadequate clamping and having the part(s) move.

Well that's at least three votes now for steel. I have just enough aluminum for the frame and no steel so if things go awry...
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on January 09, 2016, 08:36:01 PM
I have just enough aluminum for the frame and no steel so if things go awry...

Measure twice.
Cut once.
Swear three times if it goes wrong!   :zap:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 09, 2016, 09:59:21 PM
Swear three times if it goes wrong!

Didn't you hear me? I'm surprised.  ;D

3 boo-boos so far. Nothing I can't work around.

But I'm probably jinxing myself.

Made a stop for the mill so I don't have to square every time.
Got one leg milled. About to do some drilling.
Spending much of my time on fixturing and ensuring I won't hit anything through the tool path.

Collecting pictures as I go along. Will post when complete (i.e. when successful).

Thanks for looking in.

BTW: A question. There's a slot that's 3/8 wide and 1.5" long. Because I have the frames stacked, the slot is 1/2" deep.
What's the best way to go?

Drill the ends undersize, maybe chaindrill along the slot, and then mill to size?
Actual size doesn't matter. It's more about finish.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on January 09, 2016, 10:09:40 PM
Zee - On my little Sherline mill, I would drill the corners in the stack, then seperate them and use the jig saw (saber saw, depending on what part of what country and which decade you are from) to cut a little inside the lines to remove the bulk of the panel. Then, restack and use the mill to do a cleanup pass or two down to the finished opening. With a larger mill, and especially if you have a coolant system, I imagine milling the opening directly would be quicker - doing a full cut line with the mill in thick steel can heat up the cutter really quick. I dont have much experience on that kind of setup, will defer to some of the others here on that option. If you were SteamGuyWilly, everything would be chain drill/saw/file - makes my arms hurt just thinking about it, but he gets awesome results!

Looking forward to the photos!

 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 09, 2016, 10:44:18 PM
I may as well get my  :slap: now.

But I'm still feeling confident!

Four 1/8 thick plates stacked. Two holes drilled to hold close fitting spacers to clamp the frames together.
Two additional holes for clamping to the mill's table.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/Frame1_Clamps_zpsqdkjxsvl.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/Frame1_Clamps_zpsqdkjxsvl.jpg.html)

Boo-Boo #1: I should have cut all frames to the same length. I think I can get around it.
Boo-Boo #2: I don't think you I can make close enough fitting spacers. Luckily it's tight enough that nothing is moving.

You might notice the 1/2" stainless steel I used as spacers. Stupid. Things kept rolling around until I got it clamped well enough.
It was after that I realized I could use other things.

Clamped together and used the horizontal band saw in vertical mode to knock out some waste.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/Frame2_Notched_zpst2sg5mut.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/Frame2_Notched_zpst2sg5mut.jpg.html)

Spent hours looking for the plate for use in vertical mode. I have a horrible feeling it got thrown away. Still, with the installed itty-bitty table it went well.
Surprising for me as this was my first time.

Boo-Boo #3: I didn't account for the 1/2" circle in the corner. So I used a 1/4" end mill and was fortunate I'd left enough waste that it worked. But I worry whether I'll have the same luck on the other side.
Boo-Boo #3a: Because I used the 1/4" end mill, it's barely long enough to deal with 1/2" thickness. Well not enough barely. I've got a bit of 'flash' I'll have to file off later.

Milled the top of the frames. This was in hope it would be used as a reference. Didn't turn out that way.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/Frame3_Ref_zpsmz7nmbh8.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/Frame3_Ref_zpsmz7nmbh8.jpg.html)

Setup to measure.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/Frame4_Measure_zps9u6j6wlm.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/Frame4_Measure_zps9u6j6wlm.jpg.html)

Unfortunately I couldn't reach the ends of the legs where the end of the slot, 4 mounting holes, and the end of the leg is.
But I think I can deal with that later.

Where I'm at now.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/Frame5_NotchMill_zps922g5ql1.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/Frame5_NotchMill_zps922g5ql1.jpg.html)

This is after I finished milling the leg and drilled one of the holes used to put the frames together. That's why you see the chuck.

I used some aluminum angle as a stop. I squared it to the table so I don't have to again as I move the frame around for other operations. That's why milling the top really didn't provide a reference. I still would have milled the top that way though. I get a better finish.

No doubt there are better/easier methods. Don't hesitate to suggest.
But I'm committed now. And will continue to be commit-able  ;D

It may be a while before there's more progress. Next weekend is CF. I doubt I'll have time tomorrow.
I'm already surprised I haven't been yanked out of the basement very much today.

Maybe she's feeling sorry for me.


Nah.


I think I'd better head upstairs.  :paranoia:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on January 09, 2016, 11:28:57 PM
Zee glad to see you making a start and just take your time buddy we are not in a hurry. The boo boo's are not too that you need to start over, so just continue why thinking ahead for the next operation. You will do well buddy.

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on January 10, 2016, 12:00:07 AM
Figuring out how to hold parts for operations is most of the battle. For holding plates together, lots of times I'll use through bolts/ nuts, standing the plates on a known flat surface to line up the edges while tightening the bolts. Other times I'll use small clamps. Either way, figuring out a method that lets you do multiple steps with one setup uelps a lot. The more projects you do, the better you get at it. When I built my Shay from Kozos book, I was struck by how much time he spent on making fixtures and jigs. As he explains (correctly), the time spent on that may seem wasted but it really pays off in the long run, both in quality of results and also time.
You are off to a fine start, keep on plugging away!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Kim on January 10, 2016, 12:26:47 AM
Great start Zee! The frames are taking shape  :popcorn:
This is an interesting engine. It's going on my list too.
I'll be following along.
Kim
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 10, 2016, 12:28:07 AM
Thanks Don and crueby.

Yeah one thing I've noticed on this build...I'm developing a little more patience.
Taking enjoyment in setups that give me more of "this is going to work".

It's kind of interesting to me. My mantra at work is to build the foundation. Without it all efforts past that will fail.
I really should listen to myself more.  ;D What's made me successful at work should apply to my hobbies.

Ah well...I did have an episode today of asking myself if this was worth it. I'd gotten so frustrated.

And it didn't help that once again I'd forgotten I'd left the end mill in the machine and swiped a knuckle across it.  :cussing:
But to be truth-full, a reminder of life isn't a bad thing. Like when you're a kid and get a scrape.

I really can't wait to see these frames. I'm thinking it's going to be cool.

...just saw your post Kim. Thanks. I hope you have enough popcorn. This is a long movie.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: kvom on January 10, 2016, 03:08:24 AM
For the slots chain drilling makes sense, esp. as they are deep.  Without holes chip clearance is a problem.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 11, 2016, 12:11:39 AM
So far so good.

Slot went easier than I'd thought. Chain drilled then went through with a 3/8 end-mill and moved to the other end.
Still making progress. Both legs are slotted and have their mounting holes.
All that's left is the bearing hole and the two rectangular holes.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/Frame_Slot_zpssu2e7ik8.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/Frame_Slot_zpssu2e7ik8.jpg.html)

Gotta say this is nerve wracking. Certainly because of my lack of experience.
Sure hope I'm not jinxing myself.

I am somewhat bothered by the noise of the drilling operations. Smaller drill bits, say 1/4" or smaller seems to go fairly noiselessly.
But above that and there's a whole lot of shrieking going on.
I don't go straight for the biggie. I try to step up to it. Still.
Speed too fast?
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 11, 2016, 12:23:35 AM
Could be speed but can also be that there is some chattering especially when starting through a pre-drilled hole with a larger drill bit but that could depend on the size differential too. Lots of variables could be the culprit, but it looks like you surmounted the obstacles in any event Zee!! Looking good.

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on January 11, 2016, 12:24:03 AM
Speed may be the issue, though are you using oil on the drill bit? A good cutting oil will help clear chips and cool the bit. Cutting dry can dull the bits a lot faster. A dull bit will cut slower and noisier too. Years ago I invested in a good set of cobalt alloy bits, they have worked better than any others I've owned. Pricey but not bad if you can find them on sale.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on January 11, 2016, 12:31:48 AM
Some thing I want to point out Zee, is when you hear shrieking your taking a chance of breaking the bit.
Move the feed in and out to clear the chips or it could break on you. A little lube would help.

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: sshire on January 11, 2016, 01:17:21 AM
Zee
One part at a time. If it's not right, make it again. Eventually, you'll have a complete box 'o parts.
I keep reminding myself that I'm not on piecework. When it gets done, it gets done.
If you have any more parts that are larger than your mill can comfortably handle, less than an hour's drive will get you to my Bridgeport with DRO. Anytime.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 11, 2016, 01:46:04 AM
Thanks all.
Just came down to confess explain my procedure. Right or wrong.
And I see a number of friends have posted.

As for lube, I was using WD-40. Drilling through aluminum.
I also think I have a pretty cheap set of drill bits. That may not be an excuse, but they've been abused used.

My question was really more about other drilling operations. For which your comments are helpful.
In this case...I didn't step up in drills.

What I did...

The slot is 1.5" inches center-to-center.
I went along with a center drill every 1/4".
Then I went along with a 5/16" drill bit. It actually didn't shriek as much as other operations I've done.
Initially I drilled, that is, plunged, a little too fast. Got some smoke and stalled the mill.
I took it slower. Wondering if a 5/16" drill spaced 1/4" was wrong. Kept hitting with WD-40.
Then I went to the 3/8" end-mill. Plunged at one end (slowly) then moved to the other end.
Then went back to the initial end.
That went pretty well. I could tell when the end-mill was hitting more of the material left between drill holes.
But otherwise, it went pretty smoothly. I'm pretty happy actually. Read that as ecstatic.

Breaking a drill bit was constantly on my mind. I really don't want a piece of metal flying by.
That's happened and I lost a good pair of shorts. Shorts are replaceable but I and the few left functioning parts I have are not.  ;D

Bill...I do wonder about size differential. I read about people step drilling but I can't say I've read much about the size of step. Thoughts?

Thanks for the offer Stan.

Thanks again all.

Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on January 11, 2016, 02:59:11 AM
One thing to watch for in aluminum is sometimes you'll get a bit of metal sticking to the lead edge of the bit, especially without enough lube, which can cause the noise and heat since rather than the steel cutter edge you've got dull aluminum for the edge. Stopping and clearing that off will get it cutting clean again. I have never used wd40, but it should work. I get it a lot with some alloys more than others, on both drills and mills, usually a sign I'm pushing the cut too hard. With time you'll develop an ear for how well the cut is going. Things get too hot, take a break and check sharpness, etc. Too much heat and you'll wreck a bit. Been there, done that....!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on January 11, 2016, 03:03:22 AM
One thing I want to warn you about the use of WD40 is that it is highly flammable, so use it with caution. We used this stuff as starting ether to start engines.

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 11, 2016, 03:08:26 AM
One thing to watch for in aluminum is sometimes you'll get a bit of metal sticking to the lead edge of the bit, especially without enough lube, which can cause the noise and heat since rather than the steel cutter edge you've got dull aluminum for the edge. Stopping and clearing that off will get it cutting clean again.

Thanks. That could have been the case. It wasn't until the 3rd hole that things went awry. After that, I used more WD-40, took it slower, and clean up more often.

As in most things...the slow hand wins.  ;D
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 11, 2016, 03:24:04 AM
One thing I want to warn you about the use of WD40 is that it is highly flammable, so use it with caution.

Well that's interesting and a bit worrisome. I mean, I know it's flammable but is it possible to flame up during an operation?
Has anyone gotten a fire started while machining? I mean by drilling or milling too hot?

I have to admit I'm in the basement and the furnace is less than 15' away. So I monitor fumes. Whether natural or not.  ;D
All I have down here is the WD-40 and some oils. Small quantity. I keep everything else in the garage (no shed) and well ventilated.

I'm glad to have a fire extinguisher close by (and near the exit)...but frankly the need to use it means it's too late.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 11, 2016, 11:38:37 PM
A milestone. Unfortunately it's a zee-mile (5281 feet).  :lolb:
Or for my friends in metric-land...a zee-kilometer (1001 meters).

This was the operation I was most concerned about. But it went well. At least after I realized my setup was wrong.  ;D
I've only used the boring head once before.

Bearing hole.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/Frame_BearingHole2_zps4dbpq0v7.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/Frame_BearingHole2_zps4dbpq0v7.jpg.html)

An operation a day it would seem. If not an operation a week. But I'll get there.

The boo-boo? Well first off, let's speak in plural.

1) Dad blast it. Make sure the boring tool is locked in.
2) Dad blast it. You have to make sure the cutting edge is perpendicular to the metal. Took me a few goes to realize what all the funny noise was about.
After that it went smooth. Such a joy when cuts are clean, the noise sounds right, etc.
3) Dad blast it. I added a foot to my zee-mile. The hole is slightly overlarge. But that can be taken into account when I do the bearings. And I'd much rather redo bearings than these frames.

Now I just have the two rectangular bits to cut out. Whether it goes awry or not...I'm thinking the frames will be good. (Again, hoping I don't jinx myself.)

Really...I'm feeling kind of  :pinkelephant:
Just boring a hole...but it's my hole.
Mine.
All mine.

Uh...what's with the guys and white coats?
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on January 11, 2016, 11:58:44 PM
Good going buddy, you know the saying "cut once measure twice". Still watching you............

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on January 11, 2016, 11:59:22 PM
Nice! Just look forward to how much your face will hurt from the huge smile the first time the engine runs!   :cartwheel:

My version of the Dad-blast-it last week: make sure the cutter is sharp. Took me a couple tries at starting the bore to figure out why it was trying to deflect in, swapped cutters and nice chips.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on January 12, 2016, 12:16:49 AM
Go Zee,  Go Zee, sounds like a hit rap song  :lolb:. That's why you always bore first,  you can always turn to fit  :old:

Cletus
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 12, 2016, 12:20:40 AM
You are really on a roll Zee!!  Lots of pent up shop time you have been waiting to exercise, and doing a fine job of it too.

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 12, 2016, 12:40:56 AM
Thanks all.

You are really on a roll

Yes. A thou drop per furlong is still a roll.  ;D

Lots of pent up shop time you have been waiting to exercise

Indeed. I just want to vent a little of it. I don't want to fully deflate and lose all pressure.  ;D

Thanks again.

The guys in the white coats left. We need an emoticon of wiping your brow and saying 'whew'.
Or is it 'phew'?
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on January 12, 2016, 12:52:19 AM
Good to see progress in the correct direction.

Dave
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: fumopuc on January 12, 2016, 04:52:20 AM
Hi Carl, I am bit distracted from several things in real life at the Moment, but I am following your Monitor build quietly too.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: ozzie46 on January 12, 2016, 01:43:30 PM




We need an emoticon of wiping your brow and saying 'whew'.
Or is it 'phew'?
[/quote]



 Depends on which end it comes out of doesn't it?     ;D ;D ;D

Watching as always.

Ron
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 12, 2016, 10:20:24 PM
We need an emoticon of wiping your brow and saying 'whew'.
Or is it 'phew'?

 Depends on which end it comes out of doesn't it?     ;D ;D ;D
[/quote]

I guess that's why I'm confused.  ;D

Thanks Ron and Achim for watching.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 12, 2016, 11:52:39 PM
Chain drilling.
I took Marv's suggestion.
What could go wrong?
(Okay, maybe it wasn't really his suggestion. But he did mention it!)

I spotted first. I don't know if I had to but it gave me some security.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/Square1_Spot_zps8tlydmvh.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/Square1_Spot_zps8tlydmvh.jpg.html)

Then drilled every other hole.
You can see the problem I was going to run up against.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/Square2_Spot1_zps03a0kz20.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/Square2_Spot1_zps03a0kz20.jpg.html)

Then went back around.
Seems to me doing every other hole was better than when I chain drilled the slot.
Seems like there's a little more meat to keep the drill bit 'straight'. When I chain drilled the slot you could tell the drill bit wanted to shy away.
As you can see, because of the holes I'd drilled for clamping I couldn't get all the way around.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/Square2_Spot2_zps40s5csrx.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/Square2_Spot2_zps40s5csrx.jpg.html)

So I put an end mill on, came into the big hole, and knocked off the remaining parts.
I think it went well.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/Square3_Through_zps6siunrg4.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/Square3_Through_zps6siunrg4.jpg.html)

Now I've started milling around to get to size.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/Square4_Started_zpscnwbieoi.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/Square4_Started_zpscnwbieoi.jpg.html)

You can tell by the outline I have a way to go. I probably could have gotten closer to the outline with the chain drilling. But better safe than sorry.
Once done I'll put a clamp through it, remove the little clamp I made for the other one (it's behind the bigger clamp to the left), and have a go at it.

But I've been called to dinner.
Russian Vegetable Pie!  :pinkelephant:
One of my favorites and she knows it's an easy way to get me to stop what I'm doing.
She has several tricks like that.  :naughty: Fooey.
Delicious. Well worth the fun in a day or two due to the cabbage.


Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on January 13, 2016, 12:03:12 AM
Zee can I ask a question regarding cutting the slot. Did you take a datum off the sides or are you just relying on the marks you placed around before chain drilling? The reason I asked is because you have to know where your mill is locating itself to cut the slot accurately. Looking good buddy and I am just asking mind you......... :cheers:

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on January 13, 2016, 12:04:41 AM
Milling a slug in a blind hole free can, if not careful, get overly exciting if one isn't careful.  Picture the slug coming free and jamming against the endmill and slot side = messy.  Try to arrange the chain drilling so you can free the slug before the milling starts.  If you have a way of removing and reinserting the workpiece, a cold chisel will make short work of freeing the slug.  If not, maybe a Dremel with a cutoff disk and do it in situ.

Just a little item to add to your precut planning.  I'm glad all went well for you.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 13, 2016, 12:35:15 AM
Another successful step done Zee. And well done too!!

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 13, 2016, 02:11:14 AM
Zee can I ask a question regarding cutting the slot. Did you take a datum off the sides or are you just relying on the marks you placed around before chain drilling? The reason I asked is because you have to know where your mill is locating itself to cut the slot accurately. Looking good buddy and I am just asking mind you......... :cheers:

Eh? Surely you're not worried about calling me out. This is me learning. And if I can't take a question from this forum...then I don't deserve to be here.
I'm not sure what you're asking. I did rely on my marks. I wasn't too worried as the slots are non-functional - just for looks (or saving material in an industrial sense). My only concern is that both slots look the same relative to what's around them.

Marv...  ;D ;D I figured invoking your name would get a response.  ;D
What do you mean by 'slug'? The part I was chain drilling out?
Yes...I was concerned about having that bit drop out or fly out as I milled along. Just to be clear...that step of milling was just to get rid of the waste. I took it pretty slow...but confess I don't know if there's a slow enough.

I may not have been clear. I got rid of the waste and then started milling to size. (Yet to be completed.)

Thanks Bill!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: sshire on January 13, 2016, 01:22:51 PM
Zee is correct. This forum is how we learn. I think too many people are reluctant to show something (or even do a build log) for fear that they will look inept. I've gotten a bit more "ept" by posting and learning from the responses of people who have been doing this much longer than I.
BTW, pay attention to the ZR (Zee Ratio). Has anyone noticed that anytime Zee does a build, there are generally 2 pages in the post for every completed part? :lolb:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Jo on January 13, 2016, 01:38:54 PM
BTW, pay attention to the ZR (Zee Ratio). Has anyone noticed that anytime Zee does a build, there are generally 2 pages in the post for every completed part? :lolb:

I hope you are not accusing the young lad of being a chatterbox  :facepalm2:. He is way behind on the number of posts stakes  :mischief:

Jo
Title: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: ths on January 13, 2016, 07:35:44 PM
BTW, pay attention to the ZR (Zee Ratio). Has anyone noticed that anytime Zee does a build, there are generally 2 pages in the post for every completed part? :lolb:


Zee has the rare and brave ability to question his every move, and to postulate the permutation of just about any possibility. I always enjoy the reading. And I always learn something. Hugh.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 13, 2016, 08:40:57 PM
 :lolb: Yeah but you gotta love it still.

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 13, 2016, 10:30:10 PM
Sigh.

Wondering if it should bother me that people 'seem' to be figuring me out.   :paranoia:

'Zee Ratio'. I like that. Let's see...over the last two years...

where 'projects started' > 0...
'projects completed' / 'projects started' = zee-zero  :'(

Thanks all.

Special thanks to anyone who can explain...

He is way behind on the number of posts stakes


Another zee-ratio...

'parts made' / 'pages posted' = zee-zero.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: 10KPete on January 13, 2016, 10:42:27 PM
Zee, do not dispair!! My ratios are the same.

Pete
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 14, 2016, 12:23:51 AM
Perhaps re: Zee ratio...but what would we do without our color commentator :) Keep at it Zeepster, when you aren't around you are surely missed.

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on January 14, 2016, 12:31:55 AM
Perhaps re: Zee ratio...but what would we do without our color commentator :) Keep at it Zeepster, when you aren't around you are surely missed.

Bill

Zeepster - the new sports car from Jeep!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 14, 2016, 01:18:04 AM
Well yous can call me zeepster
or yous can call me zeep
or yous can call me zee
or yous can call me Carl,
or yous can call me hey,
you can call me zeepster, zeep, zee, or Carl, or hey
but yous don't hasta call me 'Hey you'

No doubt some of you remember that guy.  :lolb:

Thanks all. Very much appreciated.

Well the milling of the frames is done. Got a little filing and sanding to do.
Hopefully I'll have pics tomorrow.

But not now. That was the last operation. The operation that often results in a loud wail from southeast PA.
But not tonight!  :pinkelephant:

Might get a 1 in 12 part per page!!!

 :whoohoo:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on January 14, 2016, 01:31:31 AM
OK Zee I'm taking your word for it; congrats on getting the frames finished!


Dave
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 14, 2016, 01:33:18 AM
I do remember that guy Carl, can't remember what he was advertising though...oops sorry, didn't mean to lower the ratio further. Now back to the frames...good to hear they are done and without incident too :) So what's up next?

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 14, 2016, 02:09:24 AM
Calling me out, eh Dave?
Just understand I was celebrating. I mean celebrating. And 'stinking hoppies' makes working a camera just as difficut (albeit safer) than working machines.  ;D

Here you go...

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/Frames_zpsobegq2qd.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/Frames_zpsobegq2qd.jpg.html)

The eagle eyed (of which all of you are) will note the 'flash' in the top frame. My end mills are rather short.
Too deep and I got curling of metal along the top cut. Too shallow and I got a bit of 'flash'.
The flash is pretty thin. A bit of filing and sanding should take care of things. Some of it just bends off.

Bill...yeah he was around in the 70's. That was the only bit he had. Various TV shows and I think some commercials.
Just google "you don't have to call me".

And now...back to my celebrating.  ;D
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on January 14, 2016, 02:14:03 AM
Awesome Zee, glad to see you went without a hitch......... :pinkelephant:

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on January 14, 2016, 02:17:20 AM
Excellent!!   :cartwheel:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Doc on January 14, 2016, 02:21:58 AM
I some times cut sallow on purpose and leave about .01 the the debur process will take care of it.
  Watching quietly from the side line ;
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Pete49 on January 14, 2016, 02:56:18 AM
Very impressive Carl. I'll try to email you some peanuts as a victory celebration
Pete
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 14, 2016, 11:32:17 AM
I'll try to email you some peanuts as a victory celebration

Thanks! Chocolate with a hard candy coating please.  ;D

Regarding the bit of flash...Not that it matters on this but I don't know whether part of the problem was flex in clamping (i.e. bottom wasn't perfectly square) or variation in thickness. Most likely it was the clamping.

Bill...I meant to answer your question as to what's next. The immediate job will be the spacers and end supports (outriggers) so I can assemble the base.

Thanks all for watching.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on January 14, 2016, 07:20:56 PM
I see what T meant when she said you were trainable , stinking hoppies as a treat and you perform quite well  :lolb:.  :lolb:. Seventeen pages and now the frames are finished,  well almost,  well I think they are unless,  oh God , I'm starting to sound like you  :lolb: :lolb:. Seriously,  good job. I'll go back to  :popcorn: and  :DrinkPint: now.

Cletus
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: sco on January 14, 2016, 09:27:56 PM

But I've been called to dinner.
Russian Vegetable Pie!  :pinkelephant:
One of my favorites and she knows it's an easy way to get me to stop what I'm doing.
She has several tricks like that.  :naughty: Fooey.
Delicious. Well worth the fun in a day or two due to the cabbage.

How's the cabbage situation?  Enjoying your posts and following your build Zee.

Simon.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 14, 2016, 10:56:43 PM
oh God , I'm starting to sound like you

What are you saying there Cletus? I'm starting to think a face-off is coming. The seconds (and winners) can be Lou and T.  :lolb:
I have no fear.
On second thought...I do have some trepidation. I'll have T stand in for me. Then you're done.  :lolb:
Crap...I suppose that reinforces your comment.

Russian Vegetable Pie!
Delicious. Well worth the fun in a day or two due to the cabbage.
How's the cabbage situation?

Hard to tell. It was followed up the next day by some kind of bean dish.
That extends the fun but differentiation is difficult.  :lolb:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 14, 2016, 11:27:45 PM
 :help:

You can see the problem here...
(No the vise isn't clamped. This is just a 'what if'.)

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/Uh_Oh_zpss6ie8qdz.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/Uh_Oh_zpss6ie8qdz.jpg.html)

Once I have the part milled square I have to drill/tap four holes on each end.
Even if I'd scaled the engine I'm thinking I'd have a problem.

I have two options...
One for now
One for later

Here's the first option...

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/Uh_Oh1_zpsu6igsfms.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/Uh_Oh1_zpsu6igsfms.jpg.html)

What do you think? Do-able?
Anyone have other suggestions?

The 2nd option...sigh...that would be the new mill I hope to get in the spring.
I suppose I could wait for it and work on other parts.
Fooey.

Man my pictures are crap. Yet another thing to work on.
At least last night I managed to clear the shower trap and make T happy.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on January 15, 2016, 12:01:48 AM
Do you have collets for the mill?  If so, lose the chuck and use the collets to gain a bit of Z(ee) room.

Another possibility is to mount the workpiece in the 4jaw on the lathe, offset for each hole.  I don't remember if you have a lathe big enough to do that.

Mount workpiece, suitably shimmed, to lathe carriage and drill/tap with lathe?

Visit nearby, well-equipped MEMer with workpiece taped to bottle of fine Scottish produce?

Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 15, 2016, 01:14:57 AM
Thanks Marv.

I'd love to lose the chuck. I don't think I have collets that will take the drill size.
I did think about the 4-jaw. But the piece would be out by 5 or so inches. Mini-lathe.  :(
I thought about shimming to the lathe carriage.  That should be fun.  ;D But still an idea.

Visit nearby, well-equipped MEMer with workpiece taped to bottle of fine Scottish produce?

Getting a fine Scottish produce past T would put an abrupt end to this hobby...and me.  ;D
We were in Scotland about a year or two ago. Excellent time. I want to go back.

I'm still on option 1.

Thanks Marv.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on January 15, 2016, 01:30:52 AM
Some random thoughts:

You could always do the end spacers as two shorter lengths, and join the with some sister pieces at the joint.

For those angle blocks in your later picture, do they have mount flanges to bolt them to the table? If they can be rigidly mounted the clamping to them would work. Can you drill bolt holes in the bottom of ther angle blocks to bolt through?

If your 4 jaw can mount to the table, thhat could be a thinner vise. On the sherline there is an adapter that holds the chuck to the t slots in the table.

Or clamp another bolck in the vise, clamp the part to the end of that?

Lots of ways to skin the kitty, its a creativity test to see how many parts you can use for the Rube Goldberg machine.

But, remember that I was a software engineer, this is a hardware problem!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 15, 2016, 01:49:09 AM
But, remember that I was a software engineer, this is a hardware problem!

Once a software engineer, always a software engineer.  ;D
All you can do is take another angle. Can't go back.
Speaking from another software engineer.

But I have to disagree about the 'hardware' problem.  ;D
I straddled the fence in school. I know 'hardware'. If you get my meaning.

This is a 'mechanical problem'. They think different.  ;D

No. No flanges to bolt through. But not sure why I can't clamp. It may be more of a 'do I have enough clamps'?

Well...1st job is to square it up. Then I'll play and try.

We'll figure it out.  ;D

I did think about breaking it down. But not yet. Gotta study all angles.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on January 15, 2016, 02:35:31 AM
Same here, my original degree was combination hardware and software, very handy mix for doing firmware, worked on everything from high speed electrophotographic printers to photofinishing machines to desktop inkjet to digital cameras. Lotsa fun till the company, Kodak, imploded a few years ago and I took early retirement. Now making stuff that is fun for me!

...............

If you can run clamps (parallel or C) from the tops of thehorizontal  flanges to the bottom of the table, the clamp the part to the vertical flanges, you should be gold. I've done that to clamp things like boiler shells to the mill. As long as the table has a place to clamp to without hitting the feed screw.  Or use hold down clamps if you have them in the t slots onto the flange.
Since you are just drilling small holes in the end of the part, there is not a huge amount of force on it.

A way that kozo would use: make a drilling jig with the holes in right relative places, and fences that can be clamped to the part, and use a taller drill press, or even a hand held drill. If the jig is thick metal it keeps the drill in place on the part.

Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: PStechPaul on January 15, 2016, 06:43:30 AM
If you have a toolmaker's vise (ground square on all sides), you could clamp the work in it and lay it on its side. You'd have to clamp the vise to the table, but otherwise it should hold the piece square and plumb to the spindle for drilling.
 
(http://www.use-enco.com/ProductImages/0035218-24.jpg)
 
(http://www.use-enco.com/ProductImages/0260235-11.jpg) (http://www.use-enco.com/ProductImages/0920604-23.jpg)
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on January 15, 2016, 07:53:22 AM
Zee you say that you have some collets to fit the spindle, if so just knock up a couple of adaptors to hold the drill bits in the largest collet.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Hit%20n%20Miss/Half%20Scale%20Gade/IMAG3582_zpsmwxiwraw.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Hit%20n%20Miss/Half%20Scale%20Gade/IMAG3583_zpsch6onyxy.jpg)

Other option is to drill the angles you have so they can be bolted to the mill table which will locate the stretchers in teh same place each time so you only need to locate once and then all the drilling can be done at the same settings
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: AOG on January 15, 2016, 12:47:36 PM
Zee I used to run into the same problem when I had a mini mill. I have another solution that will work but you will probably cast aspersions upon my parentage afterwords. I assume from the pics you have the standard mini mill not the solid column model. If so tilt the column and then then tilt the work to match. I usually used 45 degrees because I have the appropriate angle blocks. It sucks to tram it afterwards but it will get you more headroom.

Tony
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Jack B on January 15, 2016, 03:13:41 PM
Hi Zee. Go to second picture in #166. Remove vise. Push angle away from you so it extends about 1/2 inch over back edge of table. Square it and lock down on table with two straps. Now push other angle plate against the right side of  it with about 2 inches hanging over back of table lock down with straps. Two c-clamps will hold your part any length you want. This is quick and easy way to hold long pieces that we used for years.      Good luck   Jack
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Hugh Currin on January 15, 2016, 03:29:56 PM
Zee:

How about a drill jig? Make up a "cap" to clamp over the end of the bar. Drill correctly spaced holes in the cap. Finally, clamp to the end of the bar and use a hand drill for holes in the bar. If the cap is 3/4" thick or so it'll keep the drill, and holes, perpendicular. (If you need to tap, just re-drill the cap and use as a tap guide.)

Or get the new mill. :-)

The build is moving along and I'm quietly following. Thanks.

Hugh
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Bertie_Bassett on January 15, 2016, 05:20:14 PM
id second jack b's suggestion, mount your angle plates at the edge of your table and clamp your part to the plates. iv even done it with just a solid block clamped to the table and a G clamp to secure the work piece.

looks a bit crude, but if set up properly works a treat and gets the job done.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 15, 2016, 06:05:18 PM
Thanks crueby. If I have you right, it seems you're talking about my second picture. I just didn't show the clamping. Right? (P.S. I did 6 axis robot controllers for a while. Now I design banknote validators. Yep...if any of you go to a casino or use kiosks...I could be the one taking your money.  ;D )

Paul. I don't have a machine vise. But thanks for reminding me. I will add that to my mill equipment list. (Unless 'she' takes my cheese again.)

Jason. That's a workable idea. Thanks. I can see a lot of potential in that for other things too.

Tony. My only issue is my fear of the thing dropping. The square column has only one big bolt and is pretty top heavy. I guess it could be clamped. I'm at work now but I seem to recall having done some modification back there.

Jack. Sounds similar to what crueby was saying but you get more height. If needed I can try it.

Hugh. That sounds similar to crueby's 2nd suggestion. Also a good idea. (But I like your 2nd suggestion better.  ;D )

Thanks Bertie. If I understand things right...you're the 3rd that seems to be suggesting the same thing. A good thing.

Thank you all very much for taking the time to post your help. Very much appreciated.

Hopefully I get shop time this Sunday.

Tomorrow is Cabin Fever!  :pinkelephant:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on January 15, 2016, 06:33:01 PM
If you take my place at the Saturday night dinner,  you'll be hung over Sunday  :lolb: :lolb: :lolb:

Cletus
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 15, 2016, 06:50:36 PM
If you take my place at the Saturday night dinner,

No way. I don't know who your enemies are. And I suspect some of your friends are, shall we say, questionable?  :ROFL:

Forum members excepted of course.  ;D
Although......

P.S. A Saturday night dinner is not a requirement for a Sunday hangover.  ;D
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on January 15, 2016, 08:06:15 PM
Thanks crueby. If I have you right, it seems you're talking about my second picture. I just didn't show the clamping. Right? (P.S. I did 6 axis robot controllers for a while. Now I design banknote validators. Yep...if any of you go to a casino or use kiosks...I could be the one taking your money.  ;D )

So you are the one to talk to about getting them to take my fake bills.... Screech!  Uh-oh, the secret service just pulled up out front....   :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 15, 2016, 11:57:14 PM
(P.S. I did 6 axis robot controllers for a while. Now I design banknote validators. Yep...if any of you go to a casino or use kiosks...I could be the one taking your money.  ;D )
So you are the one to talk to about getting them to take my fake bills....

If I could, or would, would I still be working? Using cheap crap drill bits? Or crap calipers? Or talking to you?  :lolb:

Even better...I wouldn't have to figure out a way to get to the UK and visit Jo for some curry and wine.  :naughty:

Jiminy Cricket - my hero.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 17, 2016, 06:56:44 PM
So far so good.
I squared the outriggers in the vise but didn't want to side mill the ends to length. I need better skills/end mills.
Knowing that I would need to drill/tap the ends I went ahead and fixed up a clamp system to hold the parts on end.
Milled to length.
The clamp job, I don't think, is as good as it should be. Particularly on the right side. But it worked.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/Outrigger_Mill_zpsgbjnggwx.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/Outrigger_Mill_zpsgbjnggwx.jpg.html)

Not shown is the drilling and tapping of both ends of both outriggers. Four 4-40s each.
I had to drill all four of an end first before tapping because there wasn't enough room to get the chuck out.

Then I went to vise and drilled/tapped the 3 holes on top. And a couple of 8-32 on the bottom so I count mount the engine later.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/Outrigger_DrillTap_zpsilqpzvkj.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/Outrigger_DrillTap_zpsilqpzvkj.jpg.html)

Now it gets fun. I had originally intended to mill the slots with an 1/8" end mill. But mine aren't long enough.
So I reset the vertical clamping. Squared the angle blocks using a test indicator. And started sawing.

I used a 3/32 saw and went at it .01 at a time to get to 1/2" deep.
I need to drop another 1/32 and then do the other 3 slots.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/Outrigger_Saw_zpsqiqbqyfw.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/Outrigger_Saw_zpsqiqbqyfw.jpg.html)

Seems like it's going well.

There's some brass stock behind the part for the c-clamps to avoid marring.
I'd like to have gotten a clamp on that 1-2-3 on the right but the saw would hit.
I may be off a thou or two (or three..) but I think it'll work.

[EDIT:] After posting this I'm thinking it would have been better to put the one angle block on the far side. I only did [EDIT] climb conventional cuts and all the force is towards the back.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: vcutajar on January 17, 2016, 07:41:58 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

As somebody once said:

"Necessity is the mother of all inventions"

We have to either work with what we have or buy new tools.  You seem to be doing well with what you have.

Vince
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: sco on January 17, 2016, 08:30:23 PM

[EDIT:] After posting this I'm thinking it would have been better to put the one angle block on the far side. I only did climb cuts and all the force is towards the back.

Zee you need to be super careful doing climb cuts with slitting saws - it usually ends in tears.  I think I'm right in saying you should really only do conventional cuts with slitting saws particularly if your mill has any backlash in the feed screws.

Simon.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 17, 2016, 08:44:33 PM

[EDIT:] After posting this I'm thinking it would have been better to put the one angle block on the far side. I only did climb cuts and all the force is towards the back.

Zee you need to be super careful doing climb cuts with slitting saws - it usually ends in tears.  I think I'm right in saying you should really only do conventional cuts with slitting saws particularly if your mill has any backlash in the feed screws.

Simon.

Oops. My mistake. I ONLY DID CONVENTIONAL cuts. I meant to say I was avoiding climb cuts.
I will edit my post.

Yeah...climb cutting is very grabby.

BTW The picture shows a conventional cut at which point I stopped and took a picture.
My procedure was move Y (.01) then X to make the (conventional cut) then -X to come back. Repeat.

Thanks Simon.

And thanks Vince.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: kettrinboy on January 17, 2016, 08:49:40 PM
Hi Zee
I think you got everything covered clamping wise there, that thing aint going nowhere  :hellno:, but as sco said on conventional milling machines i would use upcut milling only with slitting saws if i tried downcutting with a saw on my mill with its 030" of backlash it would be a bust saw and risking a scrapped part,just saying but i noticed the two clamps on the left of the pic are clamped with the studs nearest the packing , usually they should be nearest the workpiece or no further than halfway along the slot or it clamps the packing more than the workpiece, following this build along with interest should be a very nice engine when its done.
regards Geoff
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 17, 2016, 09:35:16 PM
Thanks Geoff.

And thanks for the advice on the clamping.

As I mentioned, I did do conventional milling. It was a brain fart in my post mentioning climb milling.
But reminders are always welcome.

I was especially aware with the slitting saw.

Some of you may remember my launch engine...had the saw upside down.  :lolb: It did the job. But ick.  :facepalm:
I was pre-newbie then.  ;D
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 17, 2016, 10:17:02 PM
Can't get this tune out of my head.
Cletus is a music dude...he'll get it.
For those who don't...Tennessee Ernie Ford

You drill 16 holes, and then you tap
Another one busted and deeper in crap
...something something something...
I owe my skill to the great forum MEM

 :lolb:

Still working on it.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on January 17, 2016, 10:39:54 PM
Your Google-fu is weak...

http://www.cowboylyrics.com/lyrics/classic-country/sixteen-tons---tennessee-ernie-ford-14930.html

I can't help wondering what Verdi (or, better yet, Wagner) could have done with those corn-saturated lyrics.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 17, 2016, 10:50:54 PM
I can't help wondering what Verdi (or, better yet, Wagner) could have done with those corn-saturated lyrics.

Enjoy them of course.  ;D
On some level.

What? You never ate corn-flakes?

If you're stuck on fruits and nuts...try..."put a lime in a coconut".  :lolb:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on January 17, 2016, 11:30:31 PM
Ok,
"Sister Jo don't call me,
 'Cause I can't go,
 I owe my skill to tha forum store,".

I think the original was done by Tennessee Ernie Ford

Cletus
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: 10KPete on January 18, 2016, 12:09:21 AM
One of my favorite singers and one of my favorite songs!!

Pete
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 18, 2016, 12:17:13 AM
Merle Travis was the writer and first recorder. Tennessee made it famous.
Travis' brother did some of the lines.
I didn't know this.

Just doing a google-fuing.  ;D
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 18, 2016, 12:34:20 AM
I recognize it, but yes that still needs some work Zee  :lolb:

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 18, 2016, 01:10:13 AM
I recognize it, but yes that still needs some work Zee  :lolb:

Ah poo.

I'm no lyrics writer.
I'm no machinist either. (Don't argue with me. I've got a ways to go.)
I'm barely a man even. I still need a bowling ball and lawn tractor. (Got a grill finally.)

But I have a shop!

I am what I am.  ;D
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 18, 2016, 01:29:57 AM
Critics.  :Lol:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 19, 2016, 01:16:52 AM
Outriggers.

I didn't have a 1/8" saw (not sure if it exists). I used a 3/32 and made two passes.
Each slot took something like 50 runs in +X and 50 runs back before moving Y 0.01.
Arms got a workout.

Pretty happy. I've always had problems with Z and slitting saws but these came out 1/8 or maybe a thou short. No problem.
Frames don't fit yet but they haven't been finished.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/Outrigger_zpslhtvzelh.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/Outrigger_zpslhtvzelh.jpg.html)

A couple of learnings...

1) I still think it would have been better to have the bulk of the clamps on the far side to take more of the cutting force.
2) The ends aren't completely square. My suspicion is that with one C-clamp against it, the clamp may have acted as a pivot and when the mill hit the top, the bottom of the part shifted. Not a problem since the frames are aluminum, will flex a little, and it won't be noticeable.

I know this isn't real exciting to many. But right now I'm learning/relearning my machines in preparation for the harder stuff.

I'll probably do the round spacers next and see how it all goes together.

After that, I'm considering the cylinders and covers. They concern me the most. I haven't done that well with cylinders and pistons.

Thanks for looking. I appreciate the patience.  ;D

Sorry...no song tonight. I'm still stuck on Rawhide and 16-Tons. Those and "Wouldn't it be loverly" for whatever reason.  ;D
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on January 19, 2016, 01:27:52 AM
Looking good Zee ,I love those song I grew up with them. My dad loved to watch the Grand Ole opera on TV.

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on January 19, 2016, 01:34:42 AM
Moving along nicely, keep on rolling!   :popcorn:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: sshire on January 19, 2016, 01:43:06 PM
Zee
Slitting saws go up to ¼". I got an ⅛" at Victornet. $17.00.
Big time saver but, if you've got the time, the end mill seems to have worked out just fine. (Wait! Did that rhyme?)
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 19, 2016, 03:01:58 PM
And lest you forget Zee......Found a peanut, found a peanut....and the ever popular....Brady Bunch theme  :lolb: Upload those to your brain and think about them all day!   Gosh, I may have just jinxed myself.

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 19, 2016, 10:32:52 PM
Thanks guys.

Bill...when I was going back and forth and back and forth with the slitting saw...this came to my mind "The ants go marching".
A whole lot better than "The worms crawl".

Does that help you?  ;D

I do have alternatives...

One involves a popular pasta dish.
Another involves a tour boat.

Yeah. You can't help yourself. They're in your mind.  :lolb: :lolb:

We need a better maniacal laugh emoticon.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on January 19, 2016, 10:56:02 PM
Wow. Too much time sniffing the cutting oil...   :stickpoke:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 19, 2016, 11:24:20 PM
Wow. Too much time sniffing the cutting oil...   :stickpoke:

Yeah could be the WD-40. I use it quite a bit.  :Lol:
I've been trying to cut down. Really!

Just finished four of the small spacers.
But as usual...I'm getting yanked out of the shop.

Hm. Wife or Shop. Wife or Shop.
Well...catch you later.  :ROFL:
Tonight is borscht. Good stuff! Especially with her homemade bread.
Okay... so it's Food or Shop. Food or Shop.

Doesn't matter.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 19, 2016, 11:51:29 PM
Yeah, I would go for the food too!! And where's the proof of the spacers...no pics and it ain't happened  ::)

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 20, 2016, 12:44:12 AM
Yeah, I would go for the food too!! And where's the proof of the spacers...no pics and it ain't happened

Man, you're as bad as Dave Otto.  ;D
Sheesh.

Here's the spacers...

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/Spacers_zpswankog5q.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/Spacers_zpswankog5q.jpg.html)

Here's the start of the two longer ones before I got yanked to supper. (The borscht was excellent! Especially the home made bread. Eat your heart out.)

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/Spacer%20Next_zpswolnpx2g.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/Spacer%20Next_zpswolnpx2g.jpg.html)

If I got a tune stuck in your head...sweet revenge.  ;D
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 20, 2016, 01:22:55 AM
Nice looking spacers Zee ...do I hear some music in the background??  "The bear went over the mountain....the bear went over the mountain..."

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on January 20, 2016, 01:29:09 AM
 :lolb: :lolb:

Just trying to keep you honest!

Dave
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 20, 2016, 01:52:32 AM
...do I hear some music in the background??

Well do you? Do you?  :lolb: :lolb:
Revenge would be sweet.  ;D

Just trying to keep you honest!

As you should.
By the way...when's the last time you saw your wallet?  ;D
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: PStechPaul on January 20, 2016, 06:55:11 AM
Uh-Oh! I hear banjos!  :mischief:
 
I bought an assortment of slitting saws at CF 2 years ago for about $3 each, but I'm not sure if there is a 1/8":
(http://enginuitysystems.com/pix/tools/Slitting_Saws_0879_800p.jpg)
 
The one bottom center is probably more accurately a side milling cutter or milling saw. They are available in 1/8" size, but apparently only in larger diameters (like 5") and quite expensive:
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=327-1794&PMPXNO=22503919&PARTPG=INLMK32 (http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=327-1794&PMPXNO=22503919&PARTPG=INLMK32)
 
Little Machine Shop has a 1/8" blade for $11:
http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=4730&category (http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=4730&category)=
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 20, 2016, 09:10:32 PM
Got the two long spacers done.
And before my honesty is questioned again...here's the pic.  ;D

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/BaseFamily_zpsn3em0nyn.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/BaseFamily_zpsn3em0nyn.jpg.html)

Here's what I did wrong ...

1) Chucked and drilled/tapped one end.
2) Re-chucked long, used a live center, and turned down. (Here's where you all gasp. I heard it.)
3) Flipped, re-chucked and drilled/tapped the end.

What I probably should have done...

1) Chucked and drilled one end. No tap.
2) Re-chucked long, used a live center, and turned down.
3) Now tap.
4) Flipped, re-chucked and drilled/tap the end.

The gaspers know what I did wrong.
Putting the live center on a threaded hole meant the spacer was not true (the live center was not centered). This was evident when turning down.

Ah well. Not a biggie in this case. But poor practice is poor practice.

P.S. I used soda can aluminum to hold the spacer after I'd turned it.

Now to see how/if it fits together. Hm...hopefully I have the needed SHCS. Studs and nuts will be later.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on January 20, 2016, 09:41:07 PM
Zee, another handy bit of equipment for the wanna-get list: a steady rest. Lets you turn on the end of a long piece without it moving off center.
(http://www.sherline.com/images/1074pic.jpg)
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 20, 2016, 10:17:41 PM
I do have one. I think I've used it once. But then I haven't done a whole lot of machining.
Not sure how it would have helped here though.
I needed to turn down (basically just take off the crud) over about 3" on a 4" piece of rod.

Good reminder.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on January 20, 2016, 10:27:16 PM
I do have one. I think I've used it once. But then I haven't done a whole lot of machining.
Not sure how it would have helped here though.
I needed to turn down (basically just take off the crud) over about 3" on a 4" piece of rod.

Good reminder.

Gotcha - I thought you were turning the rod to length. Never mind!  :Doh:
Steady rest comes in handy when boring or facing off the end of a long bar that is too large a diameter to fit through headstock bore. You may need it on the cylinders.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 20, 2016, 10:40:30 PM
Steady rest comes in handy when boring or facing off the end of a long bar that is too large a diameter to fit through headstock bore. You may need it on the cylinders.

Cylinders?  :paranoia: I'm looking forward to working on them...but with much angst. (Angst? Read fear.)

Sheesh. I just noticed...15 pages and what do I have? Two outriggers, some unfinished frames, and a few spacers.

Must be all the banter. I like the banter. Part of my enjoyment on this forum is interacting with the members. (Big part actually.)
Hope you all enjoy it too.

P.S. If anyone finds my banter on their own threads a bit too much. Please send me a P.M. I'll understand. (I may forget. But I'll understand.)
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 20, 2016, 10:59:32 PM
Wow. Can a message box get full that fast?  :lolb: :lolb:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on January 20, 2016, 11:01:20 PM
Zee we enjoy your banter and it's also nice to see some progress along the way. Parts are starting to accumulate.

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on January 21, 2016, 12:34:50 AM
Banter away!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: 10KPete on January 21, 2016, 12:42:16 AM
Zee, I enjoy the banter every bit as much as I enjoy the machines. Maybe more. For some reason your threads seem
to bring out the conversation. Don't ever change!!

 :cheers:

Pete
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 22, 2016, 01:07:00 AM
Thanks all. Not that I was fishing. Just letting people know they can call me out if they're uncomfortable with me.

Don't ever change!!

The conundrum. T says don't change. But T wants me to change. Such a fine knife edge to travel along.

Anyways, I have a complaint against you people.  ;D
Used to be some of you fine people would caution me, warn me, at least give me suggestions.
But noooooooooo. Not this time. Somehow I lost the fine people looking over my shoulder.
That, or you've made the mistake I've learned something.

Those slots? Fine job. 1/8" exact. Couldn't be happier. My parallels slip in slicker 'n (you know).
The frames. Not 1/8". They be big. This is a  :facepalm2: moment.

No way I could have flycut them to 1/8 on the size of machine I have.
So I should have measured them...and adjusted the slots.
I consider this your failure. Not mine. (Not true, I know, but I have to protect my little ego.)

Filing filing filing. Sanding sanding sanding.
It'll work out. But my arms are really tired.

Happily I realized I need to make the bearings, and use a rod through them to square things before locking the frames down.

Unless my good friends have some cautions, warnings, or suggestions.  :lolb: :lolb:

Aw c'mon. It's the day before Friday! and a big snow storm is supposed to come in.
I'm celebrating...


something.  :pinkelephant: :pinkelephant:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on January 22, 2016, 01:15:03 AM
At this point warning you is like giving up the punch line to a joke someone is telling. It spoils all the fun :mischief: :mischief:

Cletus
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on January 22, 2016, 01:24:07 AM
I wouldn't celebrate to much this storm your taking about has just dumped some rain on us and is going to dump snow and sleet on some of you northern states and the east coast. The airport are canceling flights and the roads are slick with ice sometimes I like living in the south......uhhhh... :facepalm:..but not in the summer.
Now you know we're not going to call you out.......now we will watch as you progress and you really haven't done anything really bad to call you out on Zee......... :slap:

 8). ...Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 22, 2016, 01:34:07 AM
Already cancelled classes here for tomorrow and cancelled almost all flights out of Charlotte and I hasn't even done anything yet. Supposed to start here after midnight and its going to be ICE not snow. The snow will follow on Saturday so they say. Sounds like more shop time to me :)

Zee, do you have a belt sander wide enough? Just don't keep your hand on the metal too long, it will heat up FAST!!

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: 10KPete on January 22, 2016, 01:43:12 AM
It's funny you should mention belt sander Bill. Just last summer I had to 'reduce' some 3/16 alum. plate so screwed
a couple of corners down to a bit of wood and went after 'em with the 3x21. Worked well! Might save you some elbow
lubricant Carl!!

Pete
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on January 22, 2016, 02:00:45 AM
Zee, you don't need to flycut the whole sheet down, just mill the little tab at the end that goes into the slot. And do on same side on each end of frame so it doesn't go in crooked!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 22, 2016, 02:28:51 AM
Cletus Cletus Cletus. Sign.  ;D

Don...To your point. While I celebrate my condition...I do feel for those who have no choice but to get out in this weather.
A big thank you to them. Could be bad. Could be worse.

Bill, Pete, Crueby...I do have a belt sander. I should try it. Frankly, I thought it was too small and didn't even look. I should.

Anyway, the frames fit the slots now. (Heck with you people wanting pics  ;D they will come.)

Making progress!

And now for something completely different...

Watching TV with T. Not too interested in what's she's interested. So I'm doing a little surfing.

Enjoying a little nostalgia...

Oil Can Harry anyone?
Humphrey the bear?

Is this sad or what?  :lolb: :lolb:

No. No it isn't.

Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 22, 2016, 02:42:56 AM
Some of you are looking up "Oil Can Harry" and "Humphrey the Bear" aren't you?
Don't admit it.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on January 22, 2016, 02:48:50 AM
Some of you are looking up "Oil Can Harry" and "Humphrey the Bear" aren't you?
Don't admit it.
Wasn't he the brother of Howard The Duck?  Third cousin of Charlie The Tuna.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 23, 2016, 01:28:16 PM
'Oil Can Harry'...villain to Mighty Mouse. Always trying to steal Pearl Pureheart.
'Humphrey the Bear'...Disney character. You may remember the cartoon of him and his buddies dancing while picking up litter in their park.

The snow so far...

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/Snow_zps6718y9i9.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/Snow_zps6718y9i9.jpg.html)

We're supposed to get another 8-12 today.

This is a bearing shaft?

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/Bearing%20Shaft_zps3llrqgvt.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/Bearing%20Shaft_zps3llrqgvt.jpg.html)

So that won't work.

Here's the front main bearing.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/BearingRear_zpsys0rfytg.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/BearingRear_zpsys0rfytg.jpg.html)

I snuck up (or tried to) on the diameter. Testing against one of the frames. Still came out loose.
I may have to redo it.
I'm going to do the rear main bearing first and see if I can do it better.

Good thing T stocked up on food. Otherwise, with this snow, Charlie would be in trouble.  :Lol:
And Howard too.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on January 23, 2016, 02:19:03 PM
Old Pal, isn't the snow so beauuutiful, only about 8" here. You might want to have that surface plate checked, that one looks to have a severe belly in it 8). The bushing looks great, seems to be real nice surface finish, hopefully it'll work. Oh BTW, the description of you on Cruebys' thread was meant to be complimentary. Slow and thorough are great attributes to have in this hobby. Stay warm and remember; "don't eat the yellow snow" :cheers: :cheers:

Cletus
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 23, 2016, 02:27:10 PM
the description of you on Cruebys' thread was meant to be complimentary

It was taken that way. BTW did you notice Crueby and Bill have joined you on 'the list'.  :lolb:

Unbelievable. Windows are covered in snow and T wanted to see out. Really? It's a blizzard out there dear.

Trudge trudge trudge. Sweep sweep sweep.
And she gives me a scare by plastering her face against the window.  :o
Twice.

Got caught in some tomato cages.
No one saw me.  :embarassed:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on January 23, 2016, 02:33:33 PM
Now that's devotion, well that's one term for it :mischief: :censored:. You might as well add Stan, Don, Marv, and a couple of more and we can form a "Society" :lolb:

Cletus
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on January 23, 2016, 02:35:31 PM
That bar looks like the last batch I ordered - made the mistake of trying for 6' lengths, the conveyors at UPS crushed and bent the heavy mailing tube they used AND the steel bar stock inside. Fortunately the vendor reshipped, they told me to keep the bar, not worth returning. Its fine for very short pieces that will be turned down anyway.

On the bearing, if it is just a little loose in the frame thats okay, the retaining ring will hold it square, and it may hide any misalignment in the frame sides (not that there is any!).  When sneaking up on the dimension, try just making another pass without moving the cross slide in any, it will take off another thou anyway very often. Also sometimes you get a bur on the end of the piece that makes you think it wont fit the hole - knock that off with a touch of the file while it is turning.

You are definitely getting more snow down there than we are, only a few inches total here this week, and it is about to melt off as it heads for 40....  Fun times down in DC area, they dont have the equipment to handle any snow, let alone a couple feet of the stuff.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on January 23, 2016, 02:36:29 PM
Now that's devotion, well that's one term for it :mischief: :censored:. You might as well add Stan, Don, Marv, and a couple of more and we can form a "Society" :lolb:

Cletus

Build some fans - we can be his 'Fan Club'....  :Jester:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 23, 2016, 02:49:50 PM
So who said 'the list' is that short?  ;D
I do have other lists. The 'zee-list'...but there's only one name on that. You can guess who she that is.  :naughty:

Crueby...I did notice the 2nd pass took a tad more off. I think you're right about the bur. I had filed the edge but didn't do it prior to trial fitting.

Working on the rear bearing now.

Believe me. Just believe me. I'll have a pic later.  ;D
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on January 23, 2016, 03:14:29 PM
Now that's devotion, well that's one term for it :mischief: :censored:. You might as well add Stan, Don, Marv, and a couple of more and we can form a "Society" :lolb:

Cletus
Now that's devotion, well that's one term for it :mischief: :censored:. You might as well add Stan, Don, Marv, and a couple of more and we can form a "Society" :lolb:

Cletus

Build some fans - we can be his 'Fan Club'....  :Jester:
Looks like the storm has been getting to some of our "Society members" they been smelling the cork and nipping of the wine.  :lolb: Mighty Mouse, Bugs Bunny, Humprey the Bear come on guys your telling your age........... :old:  Hell I use to love watching Mighty Mouse..........  :lolb:
Keep it coming.......... :lolb:

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on January 23, 2016, 03:23:18 PM
Now that's devotion, well that's one term for it :mischief: :censored:. You might as well add Stan, Don, Marv, and a couple of more and we can form a "Society" :lolb:

It will probably not come as a surprise to you persiflagers that I have a list of my own for this forum.  I have a "life list" too. It's in three volumes...so far.

But banter on.  I'm mining all this banter for material for the comic opera I'm writing, "Zee Finds a Peanut" (working title).
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 23, 2016, 03:29:39 PM
 :lolb: :lolb:

Had to look that one up. Thanks for the word of the day.  ;D

Wiki says:
Persiflage – a light, quizzing mockery, or scoffing, specially on serious subjects, out of a cool, callous contempt for them.

Oh, and we need to talk royalties.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on January 23, 2016, 05:49:51 PM
I am in no way surprised that you have a list or three Marv,  and I'm pretty sure of which one I'm on  :lolb:. . Zee,  hang in there buddy. I know a great management and royalties attorney over on Music Row,  I'll give him a call.  Now,  who will Marv have cast to play the role of Zee and T. in this comic opera? Barrack and Michelle are coming available,  Arnold and Maria are becoming active again,  and ( my favorite ) Kermit and Miss Piggy are looking for a big comeback?  Just throwing some things out there.  Also, I'm with Crueby,  I've started taking a spring pass or two on what is supposed to be my next to last cut,  measure and then see what I "really " need on the last cut, most of the time it's some emery cloth. . You better go back and see if you did any damage to that tomato cage,  when the snow melts if T finds it she'll be all over yo button  :stir: :lolb:. Tell everybody I said how they doing  :cheers:

Cletus
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on January 23, 2016, 06:17:18 PM
I haven't settled on the primary characters yet, although Kermit and Miss Piggy do sort of capture the essence of the singspiel.  However, Cletus, the role of the evil dwarf is locked down solidly.

Tomato cages?  Reminds me of one of those essential proofs that American taste in entertainment is non-existent...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txfdGlxEsG8
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 23, 2016, 06:28:11 PM
How you doing everybody?  ;D
Let us remember that tomatos are a fruit and Marv lives in CA.  ;D

Found a bit of learnings scrap so I didn't have to cut more good stuff.
This is boring to 0.75" (or thereabouts) to fit the main bearings.
I could have gone faster by drilling to a larger diameter...but I seem to struggle with the larger bits.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/BearingBoring_zpsvfdp3kyo.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/BearingBoring_zpsvfdp3kyo.jpg.html)

Snuck up to final size (and getting rid of burs) until the main bearing slid in.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/BearingFitting_zpsukvcyamo.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/BearingFitting_zpsukvcyamo.jpg.html)

The front and rear main bearings and collars. The bearings are basically the same except one has 1/8" ring while the other is 1/16".
I still need to drill through collar and bearing to fit a grub. That will be done later.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/BearingMain_zpsegzusfjx.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/BearingMain_zpsegzusfjx.jpg.html)

Hm. Was going to use a 5C with the mill but the bearings don't fit. Could be a cruddy 5C (I've not used that size before) but the bearings are maybe 4-5thou large. No matter. I can move the lathe chuck to the mill.

Snow as of about 1 o'clock. Wind is blowing a lot off the truck. Still more to come.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/Snow1_zpsxmdwy6ek.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/Snow1_zpsxmdwy6ek.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on January 23, 2016, 07:25:02 PM
Now that's devotion, well that's one term for it :mischief: :censored:. You might as well add Stan, Don, Marv, and a couple of more and we can form a "Society" :lolb:

Cletus
Now that's devotion, well that's one term for it :mischief: :censored:. You might as well add Stan, Don, Marv, and a couple of more and we can form a "Society" :lolb:

Cletus

Build some fans - we can be his 'Fan Club'....  :Jester:
Looks like the storm has been getting to some of our "Society members" they been smelling the cork and nipping of the wine.  :lolb: Mighty Mouse, Bugs Bunny, Humprey the Bear come on guys your telling your age........... :old:  Hell I use to love watching Mighty Mouse..........  :lolb:
Keep it coming.......... :lolb:

Don

Admit it - you watched Mickey mouse when he was still in black and white... Projected by candles...
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on January 23, 2016, 07:29:35 PM
Zee - bearings look good! Have you tried assembling them in the frames to see if it all lines up? When I got to that stage used a longer bar in place of the crankshaft (which was not made yet). Pass that and its time for your happy dance dive into a snowbank!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on January 23, 2016, 07:33:33 PM
Admit it - you watched Mickey mouse when he was still in black and white... Projected by candles...
Yep! Black and white on an old Admiral TV. Actually it was the only TV I knew before leaving home. I was 10 years old before we owned one. Radio was my favorite listening.

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 23, 2016, 07:45:00 PM
Zee - bearings look good! Have you tried assembling them in the frames to see if it all lines up? When I got to that stage used a longer bar in place of the crankshaft (which was not made yet). Pass that and its time for your happy dance dive into a snowbank!

That's exactly the plan (except for the snowbank). It's also why you saw the post about the supposed bearing shaft. But I have another.
Right now I'm cleaning shop. Then will settle down to fitting/fixing. I can tell the inner frames need to move a tad to one side or the other.
So far no 'oh crap' which is very unusual for my threads.  ;D

Trial fits of shaft, bearings, collars seem rough. But I have no idea if that's normal until run in a bit.

Don...almost same here. I was 12. We had TV before then but it was in a different country/language so didn't watch. Except for a few months when we were in Arkansas waiting to go to France.

I remember when we got UHF. And you all remember the rabbit ears and tin foil.

Say dad, what's a 'boob tube'?  :lolb:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: vcutajar on January 23, 2016, 09:25:57 PM
Did I hear somebody is going to do a happy dance???

Vince
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on January 23, 2016, 09:28:06 PM
Quote
I remember when we got UHF. And you all remember the rabbit ears and tin foil.

Tinfoil was to make your hat, not the antenna!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 23, 2016, 09:50:42 PM

Did I hear somebody is going to do a happy dance???

No.  :ShakeHead: But see me in a year when I finish this.  ;D

Quote
I remember when we got UHF. And you all remember the rabbit ears and tin foil.
Tinfoil was to make your hat, not the antenna!

True. When you're the antenna.

 :pinkelephant: :pinkelephant: :pinkelephant:

A video...
For you cartoon characters...have the sound on.  :Lol:

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/th_BearingTrial_zpsygextpjx.mp4) (http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/BearingTrial_zpsygextpjx.mp4)

Surprisingly...for me...the bearings stayed in place. (For the most part.)

Loads of filing and sanding to do.
Those top corners will be rounded when I do the parts that fit between the frames.

As it turns out, my table belt sander is long enough for the frames. It would be good to easily knock the crud off.
But need to figure our how to hold it.
I'm thinking a couple of blocks, one per large rectangular hole.
The blocks would be threaded and a threaded rod (I have some very very long ones from a 3d printer) put through to work as a clamp.
Hm....
Tricky to keep parallel to belt but may work well enough.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on January 23, 2016, 10:06:06 PM
Nice! Moving nice and smooth. Though it makes this weird Daffy Duck sound....

 :whoohoo:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on January 23, 2016, 10:29:23 PM
"but may work well enough"

Just remember...

"Good is the enemy of great."  - James C. Collins
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on January 23, 2016, 10:33:33 PM
Quote
As it turns out, my table belt sander is long enough for the frames. It would be good to easily knock the crud off.

Time to learn proper use of a flat file? Much easier to get fine control, little chance of a split-second slip turning into a 'oh-!@#$' moment...  Just look at the work SteamGuyWilly does with files!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 23, 2016, 10:38:24 PM
Yeah...I'm rethinking it. Really just needs a bit of sanding.

In the back of my mind is the idea of bead blasting.
Also back there is the idea of painting.

I've never done blasting (bead or otherwise) but I have a blasting cabinet.
I'd experiment and practice.

But that's a way off. Plenty of parts to make.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on January 23, 2016, 10:48:54 PM
Looks good Zee and your making headway but I'm afraid all that snow will slow you down some. I use to have to shovel snow when I was stationed up north and hated it. They would wake us up early in the morning to get everything cleaned off.

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 23, 2016, 10:57:32 PM
Looks good Zee and your making headway but I'm afraid all that snow will slow you down some.

Thanks Don.
T's been onto me all day to hire a plowing service. We'll see how tomorrow goes.
Chairs on the back deck have disappeared except for the very tops.
Tires on the truck are just about gone.

My little electric snowblower is going to get a work out tomorrow.

Gee...wish I could make it to work on Monday.  :naughty:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 24, 2016, 01:00:23 AM
Nice video Zee. You are making some good progress on this project and it looks really smooth so far!!

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 24, 2016, 02:29:26 AM
Thanks Bill.

You're really not on 'the list'. I just didn't want Cletus to feel lonely.  ;D
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 24, 2016, 02:42:31 AM
Drats, and I was feeling special too  :lolb:

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: fumopuc on January 24, 2016, 05:38:08 AM
Hi Carl, this first sample assembly and movement test is a step into the right direction. So, next steps to come and also further happy dancing.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Doc on January 27, 2016, 12:26:26 AM
Carl ,
big  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 27, 2016, 12:41:59 AM
Thanks Achim and Doc.

Bill...of course you're special. You don't want to be on 'the list'. You want the 'zee-list'.  ;D

And now...something for Dave Otto...
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 27, 2016, 12:42:38 AM
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/IMG_0083_zps0tj6zrvz.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/IMG_0083_zps0tj6zrvz.jpg.html)

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/IMG_0084_zpshcbce9lz.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/IMG_0084_zpshcbce9lz.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 27, 2016, 01:09:56 AM
Oh now we need a new emoticon...."THESE PICS ARE WORTHLESS WITHOUT TEXT"   :lolb: Oops...did I just change lists again??
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on January 27, 2016, 01:15:19 AM
He got so excited about showing me the great progress he forgot to write a little bit about what we are looking at.  :lolb:

Nice work Zee; keep after it and it won't be too long and you can start screwing things together!

Dave
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 27, 2016, 01:41:50 AM
There's no pleasing Dave.  >:(

I refer you to post #110 in Cletus's thread..."At least you supply pictures with your update".
And my reply in post #116.  ;D

I thought then you might be pleased with 'pics and no update'.   ;D

Okay...fine. Here's the update...

1st shot is of course the start of a cylinder. I'm in the process of boring right now. It is not going so well.
Sometimes chatter...sometimes a nice cut. A lot of flex in the boring bar.
About halfway through to where I am now...I got all sorts of horrible noises and bad cuts. It took me a moment to realize the tool post had loosened.
I do not have a good feeling about this.

The 2nd shot is mainly about making some blanks. I flycut the outrigger top plates. That did not go well either.
Part of the problem was the part is significantly longer than my vise. Even with parallels underneath there was tendency for the ends of the part to bounce up and down. (The one corner that you can't see...you can't see for a reason.  :-[ )

The other blanks went well and you can see I also chopped the parts for the cylinders.

And in writing this I realize I need 4 caps...not 2.  :cussing:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 27, 2016, 01:56:15 AM
They really don't look that bad Zee. Aluminum isn't the easiest material to flycut or bore. It wants to stick to the cutting tool for one thing and that doesn't help with a good finish. Cutting fluid can help. Have you considered longer parallels or maybe machinist jacks on the parts that extend past the vise width? Just thinking out loud. Your really are doing well on this project though.

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 27, 2016, 02:11:27 AM
Thanks Bill. The part is 6.5" long and the parallels underneath are 6". The part is 1/4" thick.
It seemed like the action of cutting was causing the end of the part to lift.
It's possible the part wasn't tight against the parallels. A common problem I have is when I tighten the part with the vise, it lifts up.
I'm not sure what else I could do other than get a wider vise.
If I remake the parts I'll probably use the biggest diameter end mill I have.
Or just skim what I have. I don't think the thickness of the part is critical. But I want both to be the same.

Regarding cutting fluid. I've tried WD-40 and dry. I can't tell if it makes a difference to the finish although with WD-40 the aluminum tends not to stick to the cutter.
Would cutting fluid make a difference? I'll try it anyway.

Thanks for the support.

I'm still up on this project. But it does seem a challenge. Seems I'm always working at the limits of my mini-lathe and mini-mill (i.e. travel).
The cylinder is just over 2" but my tailstock only has 1 1/2" travel...so drilling was fun.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: bruedney on January 27, 2016, 02:19:38 AM
You could try extending the jaws of the vice by using some longer lengths of steel and some clamps - You may find that the finish looks bad but all that is required is a rub on some wet and dry to remove the machining marks.

I started drawing this engine up in Inventor last night so I can get an idea of how it all fits together and what stock I need to find once I have finished my current Julius build
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on January 27, 2016, 02:23:35 AM
Zee, I did a little of the boring on my cylinders today (brass) and was having same problem with chatter, played with speeds, finally tracked it down to the height of the cutter. It was a bit low at first so when the bar would flex any it would dig in deeper, making it get worse. I  raised it up so that it was just on the high side of the bore, and it went to a smooth cut. I like to use oil on the bit, think it stays on longer than wd40 would. Even if you dont have any specific cutting oil, try some motor oil, 3 in 1 oil, anything like that. Just a couple drops on bit each pass can make a big difference.
Should have some updates on mine tomorrow, today was spent on going back and forth between other events all day.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 27, 2016, 02:27:04 AM
What kind of toolbits are you using? HSS, cemented carbide, inserts?

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 27, 2016, 02:33:58 AM
Thanks Bruce. The longer lengths of steel is an idea.  :ThumbsUp: I hope to see your build soon.

Thanks crueby. Silly me. It did cross my mind to double check the cutter height. And then I forgot. I've still got a ways to go to reach 1" diameter so I have lots of experimentation I can do before I have to chop another piece of stock.

Should have some updates on mine tomorrow

Don't forget pics. Otherwise, you know who will jump you.  ;D

You posted while I was writing Bill...

The boring bar is (cemented) carbide. Cheapie bought as a set from LMS.
The flycutter was HSS and I'm thinking not particularly sharp.
For facing and turning I've been using an insert and have had good luck. Or think I do.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on January 27, 2016, 02:51:21 AM
Definitely sharpen the boring bar! Nice that you are not too close to final size on bore, good chance to experiment with hieghts, speeds, and feed rates.

The suggestion of clamping on other bars under thin stock in the vise is a good one. Did that a couple times, really helped. For supports underneath, a machinists style jack is handy, can rig one up out of big nut/bolt. For really long pieces I made a wood crossbar on threaded rod once. Does not have to look fancy, just has to work!

I'll be sure to include pics and text on my thread for those guys. Might mix up the order, or throw in "Number 3, the Larch" to see who is paying attention....  :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 27, 2016, 02:58:41 AM
I don't get it.

I checked the cutter height as well as the angle of cut.
Put a little oil on.

Came in for a cut. Nice cut.
Backed off and came out. (i.e. I didn't cut in reverse).
Stayed at same position.
Came in for a 2nd pass. Nice cut.
Backed off and came out (without cutting).
Stayed at same position.
Added some oil.
Came in for 3rd pass. Chatter and crappy cut.
3rd pass was supposed to be the same as the 1st two.
Tried a 4th and got the same as the 3rd.
Tried to keep the same speed for all cuts.

hm.

I've seen this before. Comes and goes and I can only hope I get a good cut for my final passes.
Not acceptable.

I have to get good at making cylinders or my dream of a loco will not be.

Just ranting a little. Not much. Just a little.  ;D

Wish I could blame something. Lathe, cutter, Cletus. Something.  :lolb:

crueby...you posted while I was typing. I have a couple of home-made jacks. But shouldn't the parallels have been sufficient. Ah...
I had mentioned how the parallels came loose after tightening. Putting the jacks under after tightening the vise might do it. Thanks.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: tvoght on January 27, 2016, 03:11:40 AM
Looks like progress to me, Carl. I sympathize with your boring frustrations. My least favorite shop activity. Remember that old joke?

Q: Excuse me sir, how do you get to Carnegie Hall?
A: Practice, Practice, Practice.

--Tim
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: PStechPaul on January 27, 2016, 10:20:29 AM
I made a "boring" video about two years ago that shows some of the steps I took to make a 1.500" bore in a 2" diameter aluminum bar, 3.5" long. I drilled through up to my largest drill of 1/2", and then used various boring bars to open the hole to full size. I bored about 2.5" deep from one end and then finished the job from the other end, which may not be advised but it worked for me. It's not perfect, but it seems to fit the pistons I made for it (from acetal) well enough, and I did some work on it with a cylinder hone as well as abrasive cloth. This was really my first attempt at boring and I learned from the experience.
 
VyKSS5CBhf8
 
The finished cylinder (well, not quite completely) is shown here with one of the pistons:
(http://enginuitysystems.com/pix/engines/Engine_1406.jpg)
 
(http://enginuitysystems.com/pix/engines/Engine_1408.jpg)
 
And some pictures of the process that might also be in the video:
(http://enginuitysystems.com/pix/engines/Engine_Project_0823.jpg)
 
(http://enginuitysystems.com/pix/engines/Engine_Project_0824.jpg)
 
(http://enginuitysystems.com/pix/engines/Engine_Project_0825.jpg)
 
(http://enginuitysystems.com/pix/engines/Engine_Project_0826.jpg)
 
(http://enginuitysystems.com/pix/engines/Engine_Project_0827.jpg)
 
(http://enginuitysystems.com/pix/engines/Engine_Project_0841.jpg)
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on January 27, 2016, 09:53:18 PM
Carl-

I assume that you are boring straight through.  Two things to consider: the toolpost is oriented slightly off, creating no side clearance and the side of the side edge is rubbing.  Or, the boring bar is rotated along it's axis creating excessive back rake thus causing the side edge to rub.  Those bars are set with the front cutting edge parallel to the ways.

I hope this makes sense.  My wife just got home with pizza.  Gotta go!

-Bob
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 27, 2016, 11:07:30 PM
Thanks Tim. I know...practice practice practice. That's gotten me 40 years of marriage so far.  ;D

Thanks Paul. That seems to be the way I'm doing/trying it.

Thanks Bob. When you say "the toolpost is oriented slight off off"...what do you mean? That it should be or should not be?
I did rotate the toolpost slightly. Had to or the part came up and screamed against the shank. (Maybe my boring bar is just too short.)

I do wonder about the cutting edge being parallel to the ways. I've tried and tried. Seems like it doesn't take much to make a difference.
I will play some more with it. (I have to...or I'm sunk.)

Still...how does all this explain the 3rd pass when things went awry and I hadn't changed anything.
Seems like something changed...I just can't find it yet.

Pizza!!! You lucky dog. I have two more days to get mine.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: yogi on January 27, 2016, 11:40:21 PM
Zee, some tips I could think of:

-Use the biggest boring bar possible, and keep the stick out of the holder as short as possible.
-In aluminum, I would suggest an HSS boring bar with a very sharp grind.
-Reduce surface speed and increase feed. While boring, as diameter increases, so does surface speed.

As for cutting oil, I would suggest WD40. But the cutting fluid is not critical, as long as it's not dry.

Hope that helps...
yogi


Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 27, 2016, 11:52:58 PM
Thanks yogi.
I'm using the biggest boring bar I have...but it's still small compared to the workpiece.
I don't have an HSS boring bar. (I'm hoping for a new lathe at which point I want to get better tooling.) Yes I know I could make one.  ;D Marv can educate you about me.  ;D I may surprise him when it comes time to make some keyways.

I'm having better luck tonight. The finish is looking good. The only change was a slight change in cutting tool angle. Maybe speed.
On the other hand...it could be what I said earlier...same setup etc. and sometimes it's nice and sometimes it's not.

But I've had two motor stalls and I don't know why yet.

On the up side...I'm having a blast.  ;D And that's what counts in my book.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on January 28, 2016, 12:04:02 AM
Let it rip,  tater chip.  Just keep playing wit it until it's a couple of thou under and then find out where Stan gets the hone with the balls on it thingee  :shrug:

Cletus

Dave said it was sure nice to see your camera working  :lolb:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: joe d on January 28, 2016, 12:07:30 AM
Zee

Been following along with your adventures...

One thing that strikes me from the last batch of pictures is the tool holder you have the boring bar in.

Can't quite tell from the angle of the picture, but does that tool holder have a groove along the bottom for the shank of the boring
bar to ride in?  If not, with only two off-center screws  holding it on a flat surface, it may well be moving around on you.

Cheers, Joe

Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: yogi on January 28, 2016, 12:08:27 AM
I understand, we all have to get by with the tools we have. That makes it that much more of a challenge...   8)
I'm glad you're having fun. That's what it's all about...
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: PStechPaul on January 28, 2016, 12:17:46 AM
Zee

Been following along with your adventures...

One thing that strikes me from the last batch of pictures is the tool holder you have the boring bar in.

Can't quite tell from the angle of the picture, but does that tool holder have a groove along the bottom for the shank of the boring
bar to ride in?  If not, with only two off-center screws  holding it on a flat surface, it may well be moving around on you.

Cheers, Joe
Those pictures are probably mine. I agree that it's not the best way to hold a round shank boring bar, but it worked OK. My lathe is a little larger than Zee's - I have a 9x20.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on January 28, 2016, 12:20:07 AM

I think zee is using an A2Z qctp, I have same one, had to modify it to keep it from twisting during cutoff or boring operations on my sherline. Zee, make a pen line at its base, when things change see if toolpost turned slightly. Drove me nuts till I figured out a fix for it.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: joe d on January 28, 2016, 12:34:12 AM
Paul, you're right, your pictures... sorry! 

Joe
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on January 28, 2016, 01:04:55 AM

I think zee is using an A2Z qctp, I have same one, had to modify it to keep it from twisting during cutoff or boring operations on my sherline. Zee, make a pen line at its base, when things change see if toolpost turned slightly. Drove me nuts till I figured out a fix for it.
I got the same A2Z QCTP and yes they have a habit of slipping. I made a round flat steel insert for the inside bottom. The swivel top has only a small surface to lock it with the bottom, this is aluminum to aluminum and slips and wares. Hasn't slipped since my insert.

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 28, 2016, 01:27:26 AM
I think zee is using an A2Z qctp, I have same one, had to modify it to keep it from twisting during cutoff or boring operations on my sherline.

Yes. A2Z.

I got the same A2Z QCTP and yes they have a habit of slipping. I made a round flat steel insert for the inside bottom. The swivel top has only a small surface to lock it with the bottom, this is aluminum to aluminum and slips and wares. Hasn't slipped since my insert.

Aha! You know...while I was working, it kept creeping into my mind that the boring bar was moving (turning). I hadn't confirmed because once in a while (for experimentation) I fiddled with the bar.

Tell me more. How did you modify yours Crueby? And Don...what do you mean by 'round flat steel insert for the inside bottom'?

Thanks Cletus, Joe, yogi, and Paul.

On a different note...I may be facing a crisis.
I work in the basement...right next to the stairs...next to the basement fridge, freezer, and more importantly...wine storage.
The family is beginning to notice the swarf.
I may have to move to the other side of the basement.

It didn't help that tonight I complained of swarf in my shorts.  :shrug:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on January 28, 2016, 01:33:24 AM
On mine I added an aluminum plate to the bottom, out the side, with a slot to bolt through into the t slot. Could also put a horizontal slot for a hold down clip. Quick and dirty fix is to put a thin sheet of wet or dry paper underneath the post to give it some grip to the table.  I asked a2z about it once, they said to put a sheet of notepaper under it. Does help, but crappy design work!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on January 28, 2016, 01:37:37 AM
Not sure how you are getting swarf in your shorts; but if you pick up and move shop is it going to help solve this?
I guess you could just deliver the wine up stairs when required and tell the ladies to say out of my shop!  :lolb:  Well maybe not.

If you do move we would like to see some nice pictures.

Dave
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on January 28, 2016, 01:39:53 AM
Not sure how you are getting swarf in your shorts; but if you pick up and move shop is it going to help solve this?
I guess you could just deliver the wine up stairs when required and tell the ladies to say out of my shop!  :lolb:  Well maybe not.

If you do move we would like to see some nice pictures.

Dave
Pics of shop, not the swarf!  :o
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on January 28, 2016, 01:41:20 AM
Yes please the shop!!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 28, 2016, 01:41:58 AM
I have the A2Z set as well though a smaller version for the Sherline lathe. A sandpaper washer under the toolpost does keep the toolpost from turning which can be a problem I agree. The other thing mentioned is the boring bar itself rotating within the tool holder.  My boring bar tool holder has a round hole for a 3/8" diameter boring bar. One thing you might consider it milling a flat on the top of your boring bar where the set screws bear against it. Or...if you want to spend a bit consider the A. R. Warner boring bar available in a few sizes depending on the hole size in your boring bar holder. It already has a flat machined along the top of the bar which prevents the tool rotating within the holder. Also uses the HSS inserts. I now use it for all boring operations on the lathe. Link is here: http://www.arwarnerco.com/p-16-kit-12-38-inch-boring-bar-t.aspx

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 28, 2016, 01:49:28 AM
On mine I added an aluminum plate to the bottom, out the side, with a slot to bolt through into the t slot. Could also put a horizontal slot for a hold down clip. Quick and dirty fix is to put a thin sheet of wet or dry paper underneath the post to give it some grip to the table.  I asked a2z about it once, they said to put a sheet of notepaper under it. Does help, but crappy design work!

I seem to remember an old thread/post that mentioned that. Yeah..crappy design work...but if it works?
Not sure if it's the tool post moving though. Seemed more like the boring bar was twisting.
I'll check though. I have gotten some (screaming/squealing) noise that reminds me of the tool post not being right.

But I'm within 10-20 thou of getting to the diameter I want. And so far so good.

Wow...3 days to bore a 1" hole. Isn't that a record?  :lolb:

Just saw your post Dave. If/when I move...there will be pics. I may wait until I get my new mill though.
(I 'tell' my ladies nothing. I can only suggest.)

crueby...sure...pics of shop...not swarf. I know I'm not the only one who knows what swarf in the shorts looks like.
We're all the same under the skin.  :lolb:

Geesh...I'm a fast typer but you guys are really keeping me busy.
Dave...yes. Not to worry. The shop. I wouldn't want anyone to get too excited. (For the wrong...right?...reasons.)

Bill...thanks! I think that's a great idea. I'd also noticed that it was more difficult to remove the boring bar because tightening the holding screws would kick up metal.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on January 28, 2016, 01:51:00 AM
Bill, my larger bar looks like that one, it is labeled as a Sandvik brand. Bet one company oems them around. Works very well. Also have a smaller one that I got from a retired machinist, labeled as C.M.C., is half the diameter, works great too. For short bores in very small diameter the cutters from adjustable boring head are handy.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 28, 2016, 10:55:43 PM
T made hot wings last night.
I went through the extremes of joy and pain.
Right thumb (my wing holder) burned like the devil.
But I couldn't see anything.
Did the dishes. Burned like the devil.
Still didn't see anything.
Wondered about a splinter (I remember the huge blister I got from a brass splinter...but I wasn't working brass.)
Woke up in the middle of the night with same pain.

The morning showed I'd sliced my thumb. Tiny...but gee whiz.
A little Neosporin and much improved. (I'm talking pretty tiny. The hot sauce must have ate away at it.)

That's right. Nothing to see here. Just yapping.

I'm sure more than one of you remember 'gee whiz'.  :lolb:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on January 28, 2016, 11:24:25 PM
I got the same A2Z QCTP and yes they have a habit of slipping. I made a round flat steel insert for the inside bottom. The swivel top has only a small surface to lock it with the bottom, this is aluminum to aluminum and slips and wares. Hasn't slipped since my insert.
Don...what do you mean by 'round flat steel insert for the inside bottom?

Zee I will take it apart and post some photos for you tomorrow. Did you enjoy your hot wings? I found a tabassco buffalo wing sauce that is outstanding for hot wings. I get to wife to make it once a week.

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 28, 2016, 11:34:53 PM
Zee I will take it apart and post some photos for you tomorrow. Did you enjoy your hot wings?

Thanks Don. Don't go to too much trouble.

And yes...despite the pain...the hot wings were great. She just uses Frank's...but I'm thinking there's more to it.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on January 28, 2016, 11:58:19 PM
Try this stuff, I attached the photo.

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 29, 2016, 01:24:28 AM
Thanks Don. I will tell the cook.  ;D

Where did you get it?
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 29, 2016, 01:58:56 AM
4 days to bore a 1" hole. 1/4" a day. 0.0104" per hour.  ;D

It may be too early to say...but I'm thinking I'm happy.
A little oversize. 1.008 but both ends seem to measure the same.
I took the last pass at what I thought would be pretty slow and the cut was better.
The bore feels smooth. It still looks a bit choppy but hard to tell.
I may hone but that decision is later.
I don't believe I'll ever run this on steam so I expect it's a bit more forgiving.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/CylinderBored_zpshgwfgw2c.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/CylinderBored_zpshgwfgw2c.jpg.html)

It's going to be fun figuring out how to turn the outside.
I'm thinking of making two plugs. One plug in the chuck. The other plug pressed up by a live center. Small cuts.
Make the plugs sort of like a piston...that is, turn until the cylinder fits.
(If plugs is the right term.)

Feeling okay about this. Time to stop tonight.
Not time to stop thinking though.

There's a few jokers 'friends' on this forum I need to pay some attention to.  >:D

Thanks all. You've all been very helpful.
It ain't done yet though! So neither is your job.  ;D
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on January 29, 2016, 02:18:01 AM
Nice!  :cartwheel: 

Hope the second one goes easier than the first one.

For the plugs to turn the outside - if they have a slight taper, you can use the tailstock to put some pressure on, and basically you are turning between centers. Or drill/tap the holes for the end caps, and use a bolt in the head end for a driving point. Just take light cuts so you are not putting a lot of pressure on it. Assume you are turning the outside down since the cylinder stock was oversized to what the plan calls for? If so, on next engine turn that down first on longer stock, one end in chuck, other on live center, then cut the cylinder blanks from that piece.

Looking good!   :popcorn:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 29, 2016, 02:32:46 AM
For the plugs to turn the outside - if they have a slight taper, you can use the tailstock to put some pressure on, and basically you are turning between centers. Or drill/tap the holes for the end caps, and use a bolt in the head end for a driving point. Just take light cuts so you are not putting a lot of pressure on it. Assume you are turning the outside down since the cylinder stock was oversized to what the plan calls for? If so, on next engine turn that down first on longer stock, one end in chuck, other on live center, then cut the cylinder blanks from that piece.

Thanks friend. Yeah that's the idea. Use the tailstock to put pressure on.

Hm. The plans call for 2.25 diameter. I bought stock at 2.25 (but is slight smaller). So after turning it will be smaller still.
I have to be careful but the idea is to adjust height (the flat on the bottom of the cylinder) so I still meet the plan's dimension of where the center line is.
Same idea for the flat where the steam chest goes.

I had wondered about turning the outside first. Wasn't sure how I would cut the blank off without ruining the turning. Since then though I've seen some ideas of how to use the bandsaw.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on January 29, 2016, 03:01:16 PM
Lost me on that, if the stock is already a little smaller than the plan calls for, why do you need to turn it down more? The bore is centered, the flats come in from the side. What is thete to turn?
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on January 29, 2016, 03:22:14 PM
If so, on next engine turn that down first on longer stock, one end in chuck, other on live center, then cut the cylinder blanks from that piece.

Perhaps Zee could convert this excellent advice into a mantra for entry into his shop notebook.  Something like...

NEVER REMOVE A PART FROM ITS PARENT STOCK UNTIL ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY.

Hmm, where have I heard that before?
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Jim Nic on January 29, 2016, 09:28:49 PM
Zee
Presumably you have 2 cylinders to machine so you could hold fire on the first until you are ready with the second and then make an expanding mandrel (I would think it would be as quick as making two tapered plugs).  Do both cylinders without removing the mandrel from your chuck and you ensure concentricity.   ;)
Jim
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on January 29, 2016, 10:12:23 PM
Zee - back on the A2Z toolpost moving issue - a friend of mine had a simaler problem on his, saw what I had done, and did a variant on it - just did a single arc rather than the 4 that I did, is working very well for him. Below is a picture of his.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 29, 2016, 10:16:56 PM
Lost me on that, if the stock is already a little smaller than the plan calls for, why do you need to turn it down more? The bore is centered, the flats come in from the side. What is thete to turn?

The outside of the cylinder is unfinished. I just want to turn it a tad to clean it up. Whether I did it first or not...the result is the same.
Right or wrong...I thought doing it this way (using the bore to center) would improve my chance of keeping the outside parallel to the inside.

I was about to start boring the 2nd cylinder but it occurs to me by making the plugs for turning the 1st cylinder, I can use the plugs to help bore to size the 2nd cylinder.

Happy to take suggestions.

If so, on next engine turn that down first on longer stock, one end in chuck, other on live center, then cut the cylinder blanks from that piece.

Perhaps Zee could convert this excellent advice into a mantra for entry into his shop notebook.  Something like...

NEVER REMOVE A PART FROM ITS PARENT STOCK UNTIL ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY.

Hmm, where have I heard that before?

Probably on every thread I've started.  :lolb:
You may recall, that mantra is on a card pasted above my machine. (Per your suggestion if I recall correctly.)
(But I did it in crayon.)

In any case, going back to crueby's suggestion...

Method 1: As he suggests: turn with live center, cut, face, bore.
Method 2: What I did: cut, face, bore, turn with live center.

For method 1, I think I'd have to go to 4-jaw to bore. (I haven't checked if my 4-jaw can hold that diameter)
I'm not sure of the downside to my approach. Sure I have to make the plugs. But it's dawned on me that I can start making the covers and use them as plugs. (The hole would be drilled later after mating the one cover to the cylinder.)

As an aside, seems method 1 would result in more waste and more facing to size.

Thanks Jim. I've never made an expanding mandrel...at least of that type and size. I had  thought about it early on...but I thought my chances of success are better with the plugs (now the covers). As in MY success.

I think I have to give my approach a try. If it fails...so what?
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 29, 2016, 10:17:57 PM
Zee - back on the A2Z toolpost moving issue - a friend of mine had a simaler problem on his, saw what I had done, and did a variant on it - just did a single arc rather than the 4 that I did, is working very well for him. Below is a picture of his.

I think I'm missing something. Wouldn't the toolpost rotate on that plate?
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on January 29, 2016, 10:33:47 PM
Lost me on that, if the stock is already a little smaller than the plan calls for, why do you need to turn it down more? The bore is centered, the flats come in from the side. What is thete to turn?

The outside of the cylinder is unfinished. I just want to turn it a tad to clean it up. Whether I did it first or not...the result is the same.
Right or wrong...I thought doing it this way (using the bore to center) would improve my chance of keeping the outside parallel to the inside.


On mine, I just held an abrasive pad (like a kitchen scouring pad) on the side while it was spinning in the lathe chuck, gave it a nice clean look without taking off much of anything thickness-wise. Then reversed it in chuck to do other end. Not too picky on alignment either, since your fingers will follow any bumps. Just be sure to stay back from the vise jaws, or you'll be making up some new words about the lathe's parentage.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on January 29, 2016, 10:35:04 PM
Zee - back on the A2Z toolpost moving issue - a friend of mine had a simaler problem on his, saw what I had done, and did a variant on it - just did a single arc rather than the 4 that I did, is working very well for him. Below is a picture of his.

I think I'm missing something. Wouldn't the toolpost rotate on that plate?

Nope - plate is held on to the bottom of the post with some countersunk screws. Sorry - forgot to mention that part (it was left as an exercise for the reader - isn't that how the textbooks skip over something the author didnt understand either?!)
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 29, 2016, 10:57:18 PM
The outside of the bar is pretty crappy. Dents and weird crap that's pretty glued on. ScotchBrite won't do it.
I have no doubt I need to take a few thou off. You'll see when I do it.

Ah...the exercise for the reader.

I have a line in code that's been in the field for the last 10 years and continuously supported.
It was only last week that someone finally mentioned it.
Goes something like...

   eCurrentEngineState = eCurrentEngineState ;

When he asked, I just said..."There's a reason for that"...and went into a meeting leaving him to figure out 'that'.  :lolb:

Part of my job is mentor/teacher. Gives me a lot of flexibility in covering my boo-boos.  :ROFL:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: PStechPaul on January 29, 2016, 11:04:10 PM
That should be ignored by an optimizing compiler.  :atcomputer:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 29, 2016, 11:06:34 PM
That should be ignored by an optimizing compiler.  :atcomputer:

It was. Otherwise I would have caught it when I wrote it.  :Lol:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on January 29, 2016, 11:23:03 PM
That should be ignored by an optimizing compiler.  :atcomputer:

It was. Otherwise I would have caught it when I wrote it.  :Lol:
One time saw a subroutine called fakeStuffHack()...
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 29, 2016, 11:31:02 PM
I have a comment in one my of my earlier programs that goes something like...

/* I'll be dead by then...so who cares? */

As you can see...that was before the use of double-slash comments.

That had to do with the turn of the century. The program was written in late 80's. Or was it early 90's?
Crap...there's that memory problem again.

I'm a bit more professional now. Woe be to the programmer if I see anything like that during reviews.  ;D
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on January 29, 2016, 11:38:49 PM
The Berkly UNIX serial port driver had "Beware, crufty dragons live here" at the top comment block... Was a good description of the code.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on January 30, 2016, 01:16:44 AM
You guys lost me about 6 posts ago; but that's not to hard.  :lolb:

Dave
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 30, 2016, 01:20:00 AM
You guys lost me about 6 posts ago; but that's not to hard.  :lolb:

The plan is working.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on January 30, 2016, 01:21:47 AM
Me too Dave. But you know how those computer geeks are , 317 posts for one moving part  :facepalm: :lolb: :lolb:

Cletus
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on January 30, 2016, 01:23:49 AM
Are you sure it even moves?  :lolb:

Thanks for the laugh.

Dave
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 30, 2016, 01:25:55 AM
Bums.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: PStechPaul on January 30, 2016, 01:27:05 AM
Code: [Select]
double makeBloat[MAXINT][MAXINT];  // Make program look really big!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on January 30, 2016, 01:55:01 AM
Zee, forget the marine engine and just build a steam powered computer!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 30, 2016, 02:07:36 AM
Zee, forget the marine engine and just build a steam powered computer!

I make good parts and bad parts. Very binary.

Not quite true...

I make good parts, decent parts, and bad parts. So I'm a floating output.  :lolb:
I have no hysteresis. My folks didn't know about Schottky.   :lolb:

Have I lost some more of you? Well welcome to my world when reading about your fantastic models.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on January 30, 2016, 02:55:54 AM
Zee, forget the marine engine and just build a steam powered computer!

I make good parts and bad parts. Very binary.

Not quite true...

I make good parts, decent parts, and bad parts. So I'm a floating output.  :lolb:
I have no hysteresis. My folks didn't know about Schottky.   :lolb:

Have I lost some more of you? Well welcome to my world when reading about your fantastic models.
What color is the sky in YOUR world?  Mine is plaid.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Roger B on January 30, 2016, 08:44:36 AM
I believe if you typed 'Rape' into a COBOL computer the response was 'illegal entry'.

Still following along with the machining as well  :ThumbsUp: :wine1:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: sco on January 30, 2016, 10:28:37 AM
There are 10 types of people in the world - those that understand binary and those that don't :-)

Simon.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 30, 2016, 01:43:05 PM
Remember this Marv?

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Spinster/03746e14.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Spinster/03746e14.jpg.html)

I would've had this up earlier but photobucket was down.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on January 30, 2016, 02:31:49 PM
I have no hysteresis.

I'm surprised.  I think you're absolutely hysterical.  Oh, wait...
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on January 30, 2016, 04:04:15 PM
I'll second Jim's suggestion of an expanding mandrel.  I've made several over the years.  They are straight forward to make and run dead true if you turn the final od of the mandrel after slitting it.

-Bob
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on January 30, 2016, 04:29:18 PM
Looks like Zee toke a 'left turn in Albuquerque again'".
You guys lost me about 6 posts ago; but that's not to hard.  :lolb:

Dave
It happens with these programmers Dave, they were lost 6 posts ago also. It's called a "bug" or "glitch".

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 30, 2016, 05:27:36 PM
Sometimes we fall into an infinite loop.
Without a watchdog...we're toast.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on January 30, 2016, 05:36:27 PM
Sometimes we fall into an infinite loop.
Without a watchdog...we're toast.
More like embedded system fault, so corrective action is needed to get you to a stable state .

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Kim on January 30, 2016, 06:22:39 PM
Zee, your thread takes the cake (or maybe the cookie).  I've missed a couple days in keeping up with the forum and I'm suddenly 5 pages behind.  I read them all and you've bored one hole.  That's a pretty impressive feat!  What a fascinating thread!

Keep up the good work.  I'll be following.

But man, I have to keep up.  This thread moves fast! :)
Kim
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 30, 2016, 06:27:05 PM
I've missed a couple days in keeping up with the forum and I'm suddenly 5 pages behind.  I read them all and you've bored one hole.  That's a pretty impressive feat!

 :facepalm: Yeah, sad isn't it?

Not to worry. Soon we'll return to our regular programming.  :lolb:

Thanks Kim.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on January 30, 2016, 06:35:28 PM
Zee, your thread takes the cake (or maybe the cookie).  I've missed a couple days in keeping up with the forum and I'm suddenly 5 pages behind.  I read them all and you've bored one hole.

... and a dozen people.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Alan Haisley on January 30, 2016, 06:36:27 PM
I have no hysteresis.

I'm surprised.  I think you're absolutely hysterical.  Oh, wait...
He can't -- no hysteresis.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 30, 2016, 07:37:42 PM
Zee, your thread takes the cake (or maybe the cookie).  I've missed a couple days in keeping up with the forum and I'm suddenly 5 pages behind.  I read them all and you've bored one hole.

... and a dozen people.

Ouch!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 30, 2016, 07:44:29 PM
So talking about this 'turning' business and expanding mandrel...

I've attached a drawing of the approach I'm thinking.

As you can see, one cover is held by the chuck, and the cylinder and other cover is pressed by the live center.
Then turn both covers and cylinder as one.

I only intend to take off enough to give a good finish. As I'd mentioned earlier...sandpaper/brillo, etc. won't do it.
Although it shouldn't take much to clean up...it is a few thou.
Light cuts.

Happy to take warnings with this.

One concern I have is getting the one cover true enough for the hole that has to be drilled later. Which will take out that dimple for the live center.
I'm thinking the 4-jaw will come into play. The outside should be good (after the above) to measure true.

Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on January 30, 2016, 08:25:04 PM
Turning it like that should be fine - careful about marring the finish on the cover plate.

When the cover plate was being turned originally, that was the time to drill the piston rod holes since you know it would be concentric to the part you were turning. As Marv probably made you a post-it of, always do max operations on part before removing from the chuck. Going back to center it up again, use the 4-jaw and a dial indicator to true it up, both concentric and the face true to the jaws.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 30, 2016, 08:44:38 PM
careful about marring the finish on the cover plate.
When the cover plate was being turned originally, that was the time to drill the piston rod holes since you know it would be concentric to the part you were turning.

Yes. Most concerned about the cover held by the chuck. Hopefully some sodie-can aluminum will help. That side's not critical so if necessary I can chuck and sand.

I had wondered about drilling first. My concern was only an edge would be in contact with the live center. (Although truth be told...I haven't thought much yet about how to get more contact beyond wondering if using a center drill would give more contact on the live center. But I don't know if it really matters.)

I'm thinking to do the piston rod gland, attach it to the cover, and drill through both at the same time. Sane?

Doing things in batches. Have four covers faced. Have turned one-half of one down. The outside 'hub?' on the cover is the same dimension as the inside hub so was able to use the cylinder to bring to size.

I was pleased to see both ends of the cylinder are very close. Don't know if close enough.

Broke the blade on the horizontal band-saw. Replaced with a better blade. Wow.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on January 30, 2016, 09:18:44 PM
Light cuts.

Happy to take warnings with this.

Do you have enough material for two new cylinders and covers?

Also, how do you propose to "turn both covers and cylinder as one" if one of the covers is held in the chuck?
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 30, 2016, 09:27:09 PM
Light cuts.
Happy to take warnings with this.
Do you have enough material for two new cylinders and covers?

Material for one cylinder and one or two covers.  ;D
Would have had two or three covers...but I messed one up.

Also, how do you propose to "turn both covers and cylinder as one" if one of the covers is held in the chuck?

The benefits of drawing this up.  ;D It's apparent I need to machine a thin washer to go between the chuck and the cover. 1/16" should do to give clearance between the tool and chuck. That leaves 3/16 for the chuck to hold onto.

But I must confess...I wouldn't have known this now had you not asked. (But I think I would have seen it when I went to turn.)

Thanks.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on January 30, 2016, 09:34:39 PM
Light cuts.

Happy to take warnings with this.

Do you have enough material for two new cylinders and covers?

Also, how do you propose to "turn both covers and cylinder as one" if one of the covers is held in the chuck?

The bottom cover has the smaller diameter section for the gland, so can grab there, with spacer as zee mentioned.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 30, 2016, 11:25:39 PM
Before our regular programming gets interrupted...  ;D

Here's facing/turning a cover down. This is the outside. The hub is 1/4" long, 1" diameter...

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/CoverFacing_zpsp7nhxack.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/CoverFacing_zpsp7nhxack.jpg.html)

Using the cylinder to find that diameter...

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/CoverCylinder_zpsiiakxzmk.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/CoverCylinder_zpsiiakxzmk.jpg.html)

Four covers. What appears to be a fifth, is in fact a learning. You can see the chatter.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/CoversAll_zpsza8v1nt4.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/CoversAll_zpsza8v1nt4.jpg.html)

What I was doing/did...

I set the carriage stop and cut towards that. Move in Y and repeated.
Every time I hit the stop, I backed out to keep the face smooth.

The first time though I didn't have my tool post rotated enough. The cutter was rubbing against the face.
After I rotated the tool post so that only the point of the tool was turning and facing...things went pretty good.

This is great! Normally nearly every part would have been remade twice, if not thrice.

(This is the definition of a jinx.)
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on January 30, 2016, 11:42:31 PM
That's cool buddy but I have a question. Why didn't you drill the holes for the cylinder shaft while you had them true in the Chuck?
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 31, 2016, 12:22:37 AM
Ah some progress! Great Zee. I was beginning to wonder  :lolb:

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 31, 2016, 01:11:38 AM
Thanks Bill...I think.  ;D

Don, there was an earlier post about that. There's also a gland through which the piston rod goes through. My thinking is to do the gland, mount it in the cover, true everything and then drill through both. (The gland is smaller than the outer hub, so I can still hold onto the outer hub.) Not sure if that's a good idea or if it matters.

The other thing was, I was thinking having just an edge against the live center may not be enough. So carve a dimple to get more contact on the live center, and then deal with the piston rod hole.

By the way everyone...the hub you see on the cover is not what goes into the cylinder. That's the outside. It's the other side that will have the 'hub' that goes into the cylinder. That's the one that has to be true...and would be the time to drill the piston rod hole.

But then...how does one get the piston rod gland true?

Caught some flak for being in the shop all day.
You all aren't worth her (not even Cletus)...but I have hopes for some shop time tomorrow.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 31, 2016, 01:21:47 AM
Current plan...does this make sense?

Once I have the inner hubs done (fitting snugly in the cylinder)...

1) go to mill and make the holes/taps to attach the cover to the cylinder
2) drill/thread the outer hub for the piston rod gland
3) make the piston rod gland
4) mount the cylinder in the 4-jaw and center using test indicator on the bore.
4) mount the cover onto the cylinder along with the gland
5) now drill/ream the piston rod hole through the gland and cover.

Should be true, no?

One question I would have is whether the gland hole will remain true as I remove/replace the gland.

Am I way off base here?

I mean here. I know I'm usually off base elsewhere.  ;D
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on January 31, 2016, 01:41:31 AM
On most of my engines, I try to !make the covers/glands true to themselves (is that Zen machining?), and not too snug a fit in the cylinders. Since the bolt holes allow a tiny bit of play, I wait till the piston is done and installed, using the final fit of the piston/rod to align the cover/gland and tighten the bolts. No matter how true you make the parts, there are tolerances and tiny errors that stack up. Even bolting up everything, truing it as best you can, and then drilling, there will be small errors - alignment on lathe, how true the drill cuts, how well you can take it apart and reassemble later with piston, etc etc. Engineering is a lot about managing tolerances and being able to adjust for them. No matter how you do it, mark everything so it can go back in same place it came from!

Hope that long line of thought helps....?
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on January 31, 2016, 01:44:11 AM
Oh, and dont forget temperature changes effecting fit, how well the piston rings fit (and what they are made of),  lubrication, wear, all the other things...
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 31, 2016, 02:49:24 AM
All good points and helpful.

I have noticed how things change due to temperature. When I did the main bearings...snugness/tightness depended on whether I fit things right after machining or waited until things cooled.

I did plan on using witness marks.

I admit I'm beginning to worry. I didn't think I was doing things in a 'weird' way but many of the comments I'm getting is raising the question.

One thing I noticed...when I trial fit the covers on the cylinders...there's a big difference in how they mate depending on the rotation of the cover to the cylinder. Not sure where that's coming from. I have to believe the hub is good...so maybe the raw rod isn't that round. Certainly, I expect when I turn the assembly it will be (should be) good...but I suspect the diameter will be smaller than I had thought it would. Not a biggie, I'm thinking, but I have to be careful when I mill the flats on the cylinder assembly.

Oh well, if I screw it up, I've learned some things and I can redo.
A whole lot different than letting a programming bug out in the field.  ;D
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 31, 2016, 08:20:15 PM
Bored the 2nd cylinder. Only 1/2 a day instead of 4!  ;D
Overall it went pretty good. The finish looks great.
But...at the far reach of the boring bar there was chatter.
Some of that will be taken up by the cover. So for now I'm moving ahead.

Going back to 'how the covers and cylinders will be held by the chuck' and the idea of a spacer.
As it turns out, this won't be needed.
The chuck jaws are within the diameter of the cover.
Had I drawn a real chuck, this would have been seen.

My concern and worry however is increasing.
This business of not having drilled the piston rod when I had the cover mounted  :thinking:

Wait a second. I haven't even gotten to that part yet.
All I did was the outer hub. It doesn't have to be 'perfect'.

It's now when I need to know. I've started making the inner hub that goes into the cylinder.

 :help: :help:

So do I drill/ream it now?
Is that enough for the live center to hold?
Does it matter if the gland is made later?

[EDIT EDIT EDIT] PAY ATTENTION HERE...

The above is going by the imperial plans. The metric plans show a brass bearing in addition to the gland.
I believe the brass bearing is pressed in.
I don't know if I'll do the brass bearing...but it raises the question for me...
How?
Am I right in thinking the brass bearing would have been pressed,
THEN the cover mounted on the chuck, turned down for the inner hub (thus making it true) and then drilled/reamed?

Still leaves the question of the gland. It has the same reamed hole for the piston rod.

Sorry...this is a lousy post.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: 10KPete on January 31, 2016, 08:51:40 PM
Zee, I've been reading, with great interest, this thread of yours. And I must admit I have received a great deal of entertainment
from your postings and the replies/banter they garner. It must be one of the best threads around!!

With regards to your questions/doubts about turning your cylinders, covers, glands, etc., I want to repeat what someone else
has said some time ago. And it must start in the planning/sequencing stages of the project: When a part is placed in the lathe,
do so in a manner that allows all the features that relate to each other to be turned/bored in the same set-up. This is the best
way, and sometimes the only way, to assure concentricity and squareness of the features.

Your cylinder heads, for example, should be done so the features that must be concentric are done without removing the part
from the machine. The inside face, the registration diameter and the bore for the rod must be done at the same set-up. The OD
also if possible. Remember though that the OD and the gland can be dialed in later and be close enough. But that face, registration
and rod bore must be right dead on to achieve the best alignment at assembly.

Same with cylinders. The bore and one face, the rod end face, must be done in one set-up. The other end of the cylinder can
be less that perfect but will not affect the alignment of the operating parts!

So, in your mind at least, sort out what parts interact with others, how they must align, then plan the sequence so those features
are machined so as to get the best possible relationship between them. If it references to air it wants less attention than if it
references to a mating part.

I'm rootin' for 'ya and enjoying the build!

Pete
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 31, 2016, 09:14:14 PM
Thanks very much Pete.

I believe I am on the page of drilling/reaming the piston rod hole when I face the cover to fit the cylinder.
It's not too late either since all I've done are the outer hubs.

But I wonder if the edge of that hole is enough for the live center...keeping in mind that part of the hole gets removed later when I drill and thread for the gland.
I don't see any way of doing that without removing the part.

Assuming the hole is fine for the live center...I think the crux of my problem is how to get the gland hole true to the cover's piston rod hole.
I would imagine I would drill/thread the outer hub for the gland, make the gland (without it's piston rod hole) and then what?
That is, how do I get the cover's piston rod hole aligned with the one in the gland?

Thanks again for the kind words.

I hope you don't mind if I slightly edit your compliment  ;D

It must be one of the best longest threads with the fewest made parts and most silly banter around!!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: vcutajar on January 31, 2016, 09:53:22 PM
Can't you use the same method that Chris used?

If you are really worried to get the hole in the gland nut concentric how about using the following method:

Make the gland nut first but do not drill for the piston rod.
Machine the cylinder head and tap the hub for the gland nut whilst still in the lathe chuck.
Screw in the gland nut.
Drill the gland nut for the piston rod whilst it is screwed in the cylinder head.

This is just an idea.

Vince
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 31, 2016, 09:57:21 PM
Thanks Vince.

That's along the lines I'm thinking.

If I don't do the piston rod in the cover (head) then I would drill through both the gland and cover.
But there's some question how true that would be to the bore of the cylinder.

If I do the piston rod in the cover first...it will be true to the bore of the cylinder. (Should be).
But then how do I drill the gland to be true to the piston rod hole in the cover?

Am I overthinking this?
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on January 31, 2016, 10:00:31 PM
Drill the gland nut for the piston rod whilst it is screwed in the cylinder head.
Vince
I have a problem with that. If the Setup is not exactly true when you screw the gland nut back in it could end up giving a offset to the cylinder cover. This could double the offset by the cover amount and gland amount of error depending where the nut sits in the cover.

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 31, 2016, 10:10:28 PM
How about this...

If this is true then  :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:

I had mentioned this earlier but forgot...

The gland's outer dimension is smaller than the cover's hub. So it can be on the cover and still be able to hold the cover in the lathe by the outer hub.

So:
1) Make the gland
2) Drill/thread the cover for the gland.
3) Thread gland onto cover.
4) Mount cover in lathe.
5) Face and make the inner hub to fit.
6) Drill/ream the piston rod through both. Should be true.

I'll have to hold onto the outer diameter of the cover to drill/thread for the gland.
Would be close enough anyway.
Maybe clean the outside first.
Later when I assemble for final turning...should be okay.

And it's still not too late.

I'm liking this. Thanks everyone for the help.

Don't hesitate to jump in and say 'Uh...what a minute you fool.' if I've completely missed something.

Pretty soon Marv is going to jump in and talk (yell) to me about planning and thinking things through.  ;D
Ah well. Sorry.  ^-^

All of this depends on how well the bore is perpendicular to the cylinder face. What Pete pointed out.  :embarassed:


Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: vcutajar on January 31, 2016, 10:14:29 PM
Carl doesn't the cylinder cover have a register to keep it aligned with the cylinder bore? I don't have the plans in front of me to check.

Yes Don that method would be asking for trouble and that's why I would prefer the method Chris used.

Vince
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on January 31, 2016, 10:18:57 PM
Carl doesn't the cylinder cover have a register to keep it aligned with the cylinder bore? I don't have the plans in front of me to check.

Yes Don that method would be asking for trouble and that's why I would prefer the method Chris used.

Vince
Yes at the stage he's at, I do agree that Chris's method would be his best option.

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 31, 2016, 10:25:17 PM
Carl doesn't the cylinder cover have a register to keep it aligned with the cylinder bore?

Yes. What I've been calling the inner hub. I've made them for the two covers that don't have holes. They fit nice.
I haven't started on the two covers that take the glands and piston rod. Only the outer hub for them.

Yes at the stage he's at, I do agree that Chris's method would be his best option.

And my most sincere apologies...Who is Chris?  :-[
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on January 31, 2016, 10:27:26 PM
The guy you been calling crueby........
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: vcutajar on January 31, 2016, 10:28:31 PM
Chris = Creuby

Vince
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on January 31, 2016, 10:43:51 PM
Ok Zee, this is how I would of made the cylinder cover. Chuck up a parent stock in the lathe, measure the thickness of cover after facing the stock, add some for facing later and mark with cutoff. Face front of cover or profile it to my liking. Drill the smallest diameter which is the shaft size to a depth pass the cutoff point. Drill for the gland nut and tap. Start cutting the back side of the cover pass the cutoff point so a mic can fit. Start cutting flange diameter slowly till it mic's to you bore diameter. Cutoff from parent stock.......turn around in Chuck and face off.
If you measured the bore properly to flange should fit nice and snug. You could also make you gland nut first and the drill out to cylinder shaft size. This would put it as true as I could get it.
If you have a problem with overhang in lathe cut enough to Chuck and make one cylinder cover at a time. Some waste yes but you get to do it in one sitting....

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 31, 2016, 11:10:33 PM
The guy you been calling crueby........
Chris = Creuby

Ah...thought so but wasn't sure. In which case I would have replied...

Can't you use the same method that Chris used?

What? Eat mint chocolate chip cookies?  :lolb:

Ok Zee, this is how I would of made the cylinder cover. Chuck up a parent stock in the lathe, measure the thickness of cover after facing the stock, add some for facing later and mark with cutoff. Face front of cover or profile it to my liking. Drill the smallest diameter which is the shaft size to a depth pass the cutoff point. Drill for the gland nut and tap. Start cutting the back side of the cover pass the cutoff point so a mic can fit. Start cutting flange diameter slowly till it mic's to you bore diameter. Cutoff from parent stock.......turn around in Chuck and face off.
If you measured the bore properly to flange should fit nice and snug. You could also make you gland nut first and the drill out to cylinder shaft size. This would put it as true as I could get it.
If you have a problem with overhang in lathe cut enough to Chuck and make one cylinder cover at a time. Some waste yes but you get to do it in one sitting....

Thanks Don. I'm not quite sure I follow...but certainly the idea of cutting off 2.25 diameter material from parent in the lathe scares the bezeebers out of me.

When I did the outer hub that may have been when I should have done the drill/thread for the gland. See if this sorta matches...

1) Chuck in the lump. Just oversize to allow for facing.
2) Face.
3) Turn outer hub.
4) Drill/thread for gland.
5) Thread the gland in.
6) Flip.
7) Face to overall size.
8) Turn inner hub to fit cylinder.
9) Drill/ream through for piston rod.

Ah crap. That'd just unwind the gland.


Off to see Chris.
Hope he likes my cookies.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on January 31, 2016, 11:50:32 PM
Wow, go do other stuff (yes, including eating those cookies) and I miss a ton! Sounds like thngs are gelling in your mind about how to go.

One big thing to keep in mid - the gland nut is there to compress the packing (or hold the o ring in place, depending which you use), it in itself doesn't have to be a tight fit on the piston rod. I like to have it bored a bit oversize to make sure it does Not rub on the piston rod. In fact, when I use a viton o ring for the seal, which is always now, I leave both the gland nut and the cover hole a thou or two large on engines with a crosshead guide. This one doesn't, but the offset from the lever arm is small.

And yes, crueby -= Chris Rueby, the happily-retired-cookie/engine/carving/rifle/clock/boat maker, but that is all too long to type much!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on February 01, 2016, 12:03:39 AM
Zee you can always remove from the Chuck and cut it then put it back to finish facing it. You would have all the holes drilled by then and the flange done, so the facing off doesn't have to be true. Only flange, gland and cylinder shaft hole.
Another way is to do the flange first and fit to the cylinder then drill cylinder shaft hole and cut to length. Rechuck to cut the cover profile and then drill the gland hole and tap. Since the hole was already drill with the cylinder shaft size the bit will follow it. This is how I did my Eastern and Anderson cylinder cover.
(http://i1247.photobucket.com/albums/gg629/don1966/EASTERN%20ANS/image.jpg1_zpscaqj5txl.jpg)

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 01, 2016, 01:23:18 AM
One big thing to keep in mid - the gland nut is there to compress the packing (or hold the o ring in place, depending which you use), it in itself doesn't have to be a tight fit on the piston rod. I like to have it bored a bit oversize to make sure it does Not rub on the piston rod.

Thanks Chris. And apologies again for not knowing (although I suspected) who you were.
Lets hope I don't ever have to deny knowing you.  ;D

Thanks Don. I think I follow but have to admit I'm getting confused. I was using the term 'cover', or 'cylinder cover', as called in the plans. Same as flange?

Can't help but feel some people may get impatient with me. Sorry if that's the case.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on February 01, 2016, 01:38:24 AM
The flange is the thin part of the cover.  :old:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on February 01, 2016, 01:48:21 AM
Can't help but feel some people may get impatient with me. Sorry if that's the case.
No, no buddy were are with you through this learning process, if we make you feel like that were are not doing something right. I do apologize for making you feel like we're are impatient with you, as that is not my intentions. Just trying to get you to think things through. I was once told when I was younger my hands were faster then my mind and it struck a nerve. I try real hard to reason things out before making the move by hand. And it has payed off in the long run and the teacher that told me this was one of the best teachers I ever had. Don't ever feel like anyone is impatient with you, it would mean we a not helping or teaching you.

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 01, 2016, 02:03:59 AM
The flange is the thin part of the cover.  :old:

Ah...the part I've been calling the 'inner hub'. Thanks.

Don...thanks bud. This whole thing has been a big help to me.  (And I wasn't accusing anyone.) Learning a lot. And I have to admit I'm feeling pretty good with my progress. Whether my approach or method is 'incorrect'...I feel my skills are improving. Very important!

I'm still a little stuck about the gland.

I intend to make the flange (to fit the cylinder) and drill/ream. That will make the piston rod true (I hope).
It's really about the gland. And given what Chris said...maybe not so much an issue.

Well time for Downtown Abbey.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: 10KPete on February 01, 2016, 05:03:53 AM
Can't help but feel some people may get impatient with me. Sorry if that's the case.
No, no buddy were are with you through this learning process, if we make you feel like that were are not doing something right. I do apologize for making you feel like we're are impatient with you, as that is not my intentions. Just trying to get you to think things through. I was once told when I was younger my hands were faster then my mind and it struck a nerve. I try real hard to reason things out before making the move by hand. And it has payed off in the long run and the teacher that told me this was one of the best teachers I ever had. Don't ever feel like anyone is impatient with you, it would mean we a not helping or teaching you.

Don


Thanks for saying that Don. You said it better than I could.

Pete


Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: larry1 on February 01, 2016, 06:06:40 AM
   Don,  This is my thanks for putting the good word out.  I'm  worse than pete at using words and my spelling terrible.  larry
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on February 01, 2016, 03:45:26 PM
Pretty soon Marv is going to jump in and talk (yell) to me about planning and thinking things through.

Would it make a difference if I did?
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Admiral_dk on February 01, 2016, 08:29:12 PM
Quote
Re: Monitor Steam Engine
« Reply #375 on: Today at 03:45:26 PM »

Quote

Quote from: zeeprogrammer on January 31, 2016, 10:10:28 PM

Pretty soon Marv is going to jump in and talk (yell) to me about planning and thinking things through.

Would it make a difference if I did?

For Zee or the rest of us  ;D
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 01, 2016, 10:18:15 PM
Thanks all. You're a big help. Confidence has taken a hit...but not a big one.
We're good to go!

Pretty soon Marv is going to jump in and talk (yell) to me about planning and thinking things through.
Would it make a difference if I did?

Why of course Marv. Measured as a scalar...huge. Measured as a vector...well I'll keep that to myself.  ;D

Sometimes a take takes awhile to take.

Otherwise I wouldn't need those cards above my machine with your excellent advice crayoned in.  ;D
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 01, 2016, 11:16:11 PM
Off to see Chris.
Hope he likes my cookies.

As I did. But I forgot the cookies. (Well I didn't forget...I don't have any!  :cussing: )

So I looked/studied/investigated his approach.

I see that when he did (what I call the outer hub) he drilled/reamed for the piston rod and also did the drilling/threading for the gland.
I don't see the work done for the (what I call the inner hub but is now known to be as the flange). i.e. the part of the part that acts as a register to the cylinder's bore.

What am I missing?

I'm thinking I'm good to go to make the flange and drill/ream the piston rod hole. Leaving the gland to figure out (for which I have some Marv non-approved ideas).

Chris...I wish I could send you some real cookies...but T won't make them again until Christmas.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on February 01, 2016, 11:48:03 PM
Off to see Chris.
Hope he likes my cookies.

As I did. But I forgot the cookies. (Well I didn't forget...I don't have any!  :cussing: )

So I looked/studied/investigated his approach.

I see that when he did (what I call the outer hub) he drilled/reamed for the piston rod and also did the drilling/threading for the gland.
I don't see the work done for the (what I call the inner hub but is now known to be as the flange). i.e. the part of the part that acts as a register to the cylinder's bore.

What am I missing?

I'm thinking I'm good to go to make the flange and drill/ream the piston rod hole. Leaving the gland to figure out (for which I have some Marv non-approved ideas).

Chris...I wish I could send you some real cookies...but T won't make them again until Christmas.
Hey Zee, don't worry about the cookies, I got lots!

I left the inner hub a touch on the small side. No matter what, there will be some errors (tolerances in enginerspeak!) In the parts. So I leave the inner hub small and use the piston and rod find thier own center for the assembly, and tighten the hub bolts to hold it in place. Add this to the Marv sayings on your post-its:
       Engineering is managing how tolerances stack up, and making them work as a whole.

Even if you drill the gland nut as tightened perfectly, how good were the threads aligned in each piece? When the nut is a partial turn farther out with packing or o ring in place, how is it aligned then? Wont be same. Leave play in key places to let you adjust fit as assembled. Get it hot with steam, and prts too tight, it will bind up. Look at the SR71, it leaks like a puppy when on the ground, doesn't seal till its hot. F1 cars are the other way, engine wont go unless prewarmed. Tolerances!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 02, 2016, 12:15:28 AM
I left the inner hub a touch on the small side. No matter what, there will be some errors (tolerances in enginerspeak!) In the parts. So I leave the inner hub small and use the piston and rod find thier own center for the assembly, and tighten the hub bolts to hold it in place.

Even if you drill the gland nut as tightened perfectly, how good were the threads aligned in each piece? When the nut is a partial turn farther out with packing or o ring in place, how is it aligned then? Wont be same. Leave play in key places to let you adjust fit as assembled. Get it hot with steam, and prts too tight, it will bind up. Look at the SR71, it leaks like a puppy when on the ground

Thanks buddy. You're worth a cookie. (One of T's cookies...which says a lot.)

I recall reading several threads/posts that talked about 'fiddling' and I think that's exactly what you're talking about with respect to assembly/tighten.

As for the gland...yes...that's what's been bothering me. I just felt that drilling the gland in situ would be fine...but as soon as that gland has to be loosened or tightened...all bets are off.

I remember reading about the SR71...and seeing a photo on the ground. If they wait too long...no fuel.

Well enough spinning on this. Time to make swarf.

Which will be difficult in the short term. Since T got laid off, I'm helping her get setup in her own business. (She's doing fine...work is coming in.) And the little one is moving this weekend. So I think I'll be helping. They say they don't need me...but they need my truck. Really?...they think they can take my truck without me?

I'm thinking there's two women in my life that owe me some cookies.  :thinking:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 03, 2016, 12:06:14 AM
Well...this went far better than I had hoped. So far.

Finished the covers (except for the drill/thread for glands).
This is the inner hub, er...  :slap: flange. Drilled and reamed for 3/16.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/CoverWithFlange_zpsbhizgemo.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/CoverWithFlange_zpsbhizgemo.jpg.html)

As a test...I thought it would be cool to put both covers on a cylinder and see if a 3/16 stainless steel rod would be 'true'...

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/CoverTest_zpsm4wgor3n.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/CoverTest_zpsm4wgor3n.jpg.html)

I tried both cylinders. Seems good?
A little binding which I take to mean a pretty close fit. I'm hoping a little run-in will make it good.

Unless I'm missing something here...I'm feeling pretty good.  :pinkelephant:

And so...

It's stinking hoppie time
It's stinking hoppie time
Zee, you and forum, too
And T says good grief woo
Let's wish it was a better rhyme
Cause it's stinking hoppie time.

 :pinkelephant: :pinkelephant: :pinkelephant:
Yeah...I already started.
 :paranoia:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on February 03, 2016, 12:11:08 AM
I'd expect no less, 14 pages of indecision for a perfectly completed part. True Zee :pinkelephant:

Cletus
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 03, 2016, 01:36:38 AM
I'd expect no less, 14 pages of indecision for a perfectly completed part.

Indecision requires decision.  ;D

Thanks bud.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on February 03, 2016, 01:43:18 AM
And Celebration!

Nice work Zee :ThumbsUp:

Dave
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on February 03, 2016, 01:44:14 AM
How about some King Cake Zee, I like cookies but King Cake Mmmmm. It's Mardi Gras time down south and we do love to eat. The King Cake is one of our favorites this time of year.
Oh! Did you make some progress Zee? I hardly notice with all the banter we been doing. Looking good buddy.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 03, 2016, 01:59:41 AM
Thanks Dave.

Oh! Did you make some progress Zee? I hardly notice with all the banter we been doing.

 :facepalm:

Thanks Don.  ;D
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on February 03, 2016, 03:20:32 AM
Nice! Keep the parts coming, and you can have another hopping stinkie, or whatever you call it...!  :cheers:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 03, 2016, 11:43:02 AM
Nice! Keep the parts coming

Thanks. I put a little oil on, ran the rod back and forth, and rotated some. Didn't take much to run fairly smooth.
Getting scary now. For me it was a lot of work getting here...boo-boos forcing redo(s) are no doubt lurking.

and you can have another hopping stinkie, or whatever you call it...!

That's 'stinking hoppie'. A 'hopping stinkie' is when I run out of vodka and  :rant:

Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on February 03, 2016, 12:11:15 PM
Nice work on the cylinder and heads Zee. The rhyming can use a little work though :)  Fortunately, we aren't a poetry forum...preferring (so it seems) cookies, scottish produce, curry dishes, chicken livers, and the occasional bit of metalworking  :stir:

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Jo on February 03, 2016, 12:53:52 PM
Nice work on the cylinder and heads Zee. The rhyming can use a little work though :)  Fortunately, we aren't a poetry forum...preferring (so it seems) cookies, scottish produce, curry dishes, chicken livers, and the occasional bit of metalworking  :stir:

Bill

 :stickpoke: What about the  :wine1: and the  :DrinkPint:

Jo
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on February 03, 2016, 04:19:09 PM
Nice work on the cylinder and heads Zee. The rhyming can use a little work though :)  Fortunately, we aren't a poetry forum...preferring (so it seems) cookies, scottish produce, curry dishes, chicken livers, and the occasional bit of metalworking  :stir:

Bill

Metalworking? Metalworking? Oh, yeah!!   :Director:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: PStechPaul on February 03, 2016, 10:18:06 PM
That's 'stinking hoppie'. A 'hopping stinkie' is when I run out of vodka and  :rant:

Have you ever had a "stomping hickie"?  :LittleDevil: :ROFL:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 03, 2016, 10:47:29 PM
The rhyming can use a little work though :)

Still the critic eh? I thought it went okay with Howdy Doody.  ;D

For you Jo... :wine1: :wine1:

Chris...what's that you're yelling? I can't hear you.

Paul...not going there.  ;D

Chris mentioned 'hippie' on his thread. Nah. Although my kids continue to accuse me of having been one.
Although, I had the Frye boots, CPO jacket, bell-bottoms, read Mother Earth News, and eventually grew facial hair.
I mean can you imagine? A hippie in southwest Missouri?  :lolb:

Some more for Jo... :wine1: :wine1:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on February 04, 2016, 01:39:24 AM
Well, the Howdy Doody tune does help it a bit...and yes I do remember it!

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: PStechPaul on February 04, 2016, 01:58:53 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ic1tnam8Wc
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 04, 2016, 02:17:10 AM
That's it!!!
Thanks Paul.
It's been driving the family nuts for the last couple of days.
We kept thinking there was another similar tune to Howdy Doody but couldn't remember.
(I've been driving them crazy humming.)

But please...not Barney...nooooooooooo.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Alan Haisley on February 04, 2016, 09:52:09 PM
Where are those child actors now?  :Jester: :Jester: :Jester:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 04, 2016, 10:14:48 PM
Where are those child actors now?  :Jester: :Jester: :Jester:

Barney ate them.

A little known fact about Barney...he plays with his food.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on February 04, 2016, 10:33:27 PM
A lot of them are in small retirement complexes just outside of Palm Springs and quite a few in rehab and several pushing up daisies  8) I was wondering,  with this being the last season of the Downtown,  are you anticipating any more shop time after the finally?  Perhaps when it ends I'll be able to employ a proper footman  8)

Cletus
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 04, 2016, 10:47:34 PM
I was wondering,  with this being the last season of the Downtown,  are you anticipating any more shop time after the finally?

If you're talking to me  ;D ... no.
Keep in mind it's part of T and me time. So it will be replaced.

What I have to be careful of...is that it's not replaced with a movie or two hour episode thingie.

Don't tell her...what I often do is use that time to cruise the forum.  :naughty:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on February 04, 2016, 10:58:14 PM
Bless yo heart,  you have got a bad dose of it now don't ya.  I know the cure,  :old:

Cletus
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on February 04, 2016, 11:28:23 PM
after the finally?

 :ROFL:

Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on February 04, 2016, 11:40:05 PM
Bless yo heart,  you have got a bad dose of it now don't ya.  I know the cure,  :old:

Cletus
:lolb: are you kidding? Mickie and I watch it every week there is no cure.  :facepalm: It's quality time they call it......, :slap:

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 05, 2016, 02:18:17 AM
Cletus...who says I want to be cured?  ;D
Marv...as you will see...I'm not entirely opposed to making my own tools.
Don...quality time! Yes. And I managed a little tonight...

I realized the other night that I don't have a die holder for the 1/2-40. It's 1 1/2" diameter and my die holder takes 13/16 or 1". So I sacrificed the spare stock I had in case a cylinder went bad (which could still happen)...

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/DieHolder_zpslnp13qwa.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/DieHolder_zpslnp13qwa.jpg.html)

I still need to drill/thread the holes for the die holders, drill the hole for the, for the, hm...rod that goes in the side to help turn the die, and I want to knurl the body.
I haven't checked if my knurler will go to that size. If it doesn't, so be it.

The body probably needn't be that large, but why spend the time turning it down further?

Geesh. I've never had so many splinters in past projects as I've had on this one.

Had to steal T's tweezers.
Got caught.
Stole them again.
Got caught.
So now it's a choice between a splinter and T's wrath.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on February 05, 2016, 02:33:07 AM
Zee, get you a pair of these and keep them in your toolbox. No more wrath...in fact T might want a pair of her own.

www.PockeTweez.com

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on February 05, 2016, 02:57:58 PM
hm...rod that goes in the side to help turn the die,

Often called "tommy bar(s)"

 and I want to knurl the body.
I haven't checked if my knurler will go to that size.

If you're grasping it when it grabs, you might not be so enthused about knurling.


I marked my text to display in red but apparently it didn't work.  I don't understand why that failed.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on February 05, 2016, 04:12:54 PM

I realized the other night that I don't have a die holder for the 1/2-40. It's 1 1/2" diameter and my die holder takes 13/16 or 1". So I sacrificed the spare stock I had in case a cylinder went bad (which could still happen)...

Better keep the 2 cylinders out of the sun, dont want them to go bad....
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on February 05, 2016, 06:44:16 PM
Alright now,  you're getting in the spirit,  making tools to help with the build  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:. There may be hope yet.  Marv,  sorry,  I forgot the accent on the  "fi"  If I were being graded or was in the boardroom,  I would have most certainly used "finale " , Just typing how Cletus would say it,  however,  by you noticing,  it shows you still care  :lolb:. It does appear that the series has helped rescue the poor aristocratic family that was endowed the estate now know on the telly.  PBS did a great "behind the scenes " of the estate's history and how it's been interwoven into the series . See,  y'all thought that I thought it was "foo-foo" , I don't,  however,  quality time I don't call it: just watching TV is what I call it.  So OK Mr.  Wizard,  what's the next part? BTW, after all indecision,  banter,  and BS, all off the pieces look really nice, just saying.

Cletus
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 05, 2016, 10:36:31 PM
Thanks Bill. I like those tweezers. Maybe get two and give one to T for Valentine's day. (We don't do flowers and chocos here.) I am a fortunate soul.

Thanks Marv. 'tommy bar' came to mind (I remember us talking about them before) but I wasn't sure it applied here. To your point, I can always knurl later if I think it would help.

Better keep the 2 cylinders out of the sun, dont want them to go bad....

Not a problem. I'm in the basement. And generally in the dark anyway.

Thanks Eric. At least that part that says "look really nice"  ;D

I made a decision! Just now! I decided to have another 'stinking hoppie'. It's Friday!!!
Oh! And another decision! I decided that after that one I'll decide whether to have another.  ;D
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on February 05, 2016, 11:20:19 PM
Now see,  that sounds like a good country song  :lolb: :lolb:. So,  just wondering,  when is the  next actual machining episode?   :shrug:I will need to bake cookies.


Cletus
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on February 05, 2016, 11:30:11 PM
To your point, I can always knurl later if I think it would help.

I prefer fluting to knurling but that's me.  If you do knurl, take a light cut over the finished knurl to knock the sharp points off the little pyramids you've formed.  Your hands will thank you. 

Sharp knurling is fine for something one handles infrequently and gently, eg, a micrometer barrel, but can get really annoying on larger items.  Knurls on die stocks or large tap wrenches are particularly annoying for me.  You'll note that quality ratchet wrenches almost never have knurling on the handles (and if they do, they're not "quality" in my perception).
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 06, 2016, 12:14:48 AM
Marv...32nd degree curmudgeon is an astounding achievement!
Granted, I may not have met 1st degree in your eyes...but I'm being measured by my family.  ;D
And to some extent...a curmudgeon is a curmudgeon in many peoples minds. Nyah.

Eric...what? Are you poking at me? You're one to talk.  :lolb:

So here's the die holder...

I squared the rotary to the spindle and then used the edge finder to come in the (my) desired distance...

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/DieHolderMounted_zpsahxyqlbq.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/DieHolderMounted_zpsahxyqlbq.jpg.html)

I used a trick I saw in a past thread to find the point close enough to center...

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/DieHolderSquared_zpsrml8pwo4.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/DieHolderSquared_zpsrml8pwo4.jpg.html)

Drilled and tapped. Note the machinist jack. A tool I made when I first started learning!!!  Nyah.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/DieHolderTapped_zpsvpkkcxbu.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/DieHolderTapped_zpsvpkkcxbu.jpg.html)

And done, sans knurling. Which I'll wait and see. It shows the 'tommy bar' in place and the die holder holder?

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/DieHolderFinished_zpsklohspzk.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/DieHolderFinished_zpsklohspzk.jpg.html)

Isn't it amazing how you when you repeat things, you get better?
I wish that were always true. At least T does.  :lolb:

Yeah you guessed it. I'm taking a run at the cylinder glands.

Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on February 06, 2016, 12:19:33 AM
Yup  must be a geezer. Took the 32nd degree comment from other thread to confuse the others here!    :stickpoke:

On my die holders, I made holes for the tommy bars (sounds like someplace a cat would drink) every 45 degrees around so I could hold the chuck and turn the die for finer control. Just a preference thing. 6 one, 13 the other...!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 06, 2016, 12:21:49 AM
Yup  must be a geezer. Took the 32nd degree comment from other thread to confuse the others here!    :stickpoke:
  :lolb: :lolb:

On my die holders, I made holes for the tommy bars (sounds like someplace a cat would drink) every 45 degrees around so I could hold the chuck and turn the die for finer control.

Good point. I went by the purchased die holder I have. Actually...have not had to use the tommy bar on that.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on February 06, 2016, 12:44:43 AM
Well we actually have some progress and a good job of it too Zee. Nice work buddy and are you going to knurl or flute it?

 :wine1:

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on February 06, 2016, 12:44:50 AM
Nice job on the die holder Zee. don't think it will need the knurls unless you just want to add them. The tommy bar is much better for leverage. Another nice too to add to the box. Good looking jack too, I don't remember seeing it before.


Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 06, 2016, 02:21:56 AM
Thanks Don and Bill.

I'm not going to knurl or flute it at this point. I suspect I don't need to do anything. We'll see.

Bill...the jack is from when was I first starting this hobby...4 years now? Maybe 5. T got stationed in Brussels for a year so it was an opportune time to think about a hobby.
I've talked about this before. One of my fears is my Uncle Ernest. Sitting on the front porch watching the world go by...waiting to die. I made lists of all my interests and looked for the common denominator. Machining dropped out. Looking back at my life...it totally made sense.
You all understand the joy of making something with your own hands and having the ability and equipment to solve those everyday problems that crop up.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/FirstProjects_zpsmrtpczqv.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/FirstProjects_zpsmrtpczqv.jpg.html)

I got that book and made some of the projects.
The jacks...which, at the time, was scary because it involved steel. I've used them...but seldom.
The machinist clamp...also steel but scarier still...I had to blacken it by heating and putting into oil. I've used on occasion. I'm fairly proud of that one.
The hammer...I use all the time to release the collets and chuck in the mill. Not a good job...but it's my favorite memory.
I also did the triangular part (not shown, discarded as useless for me)...and you may recall, that resulted in two holes drilled into my mill table.  :-[

I found the book really helpful and it got me pretty excited into this hobby. It has a few typos in the tables in the back of the book.
You'll note the cover has a picture of a Sherline.

Most helpful has been the support and encouragement from you lot.

After, or during that time, I joined the 'previous' forum and met many of you. That's resulted in some good friendships and a lot of fun.

My first engine was the PM Research Model #2.

I caught a lot of flak from several of you (especially Marv  ;D) in starting my first engine with a casting.
But I'd also gotten a how-to video for that model and managed to get it running. (If I recall...I had to order two more sets  ;D due to 'learnings'. I hadn't known I could just order the individual parts I'd ruined.)

So that's part of the story. And now I'm stuck with you all.  :Lol:

As they say back home...it could be worse.

Ah. Almost forgot. I have a decision to make. You can guess what it is.  :DrinkPint:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on February 06, 2016, 02:51:10 AM
Zee, no matter how small or large a project you make is a step towards the goal you seek. You should be elated at what you have achieved. The biggest mistake you could of make is not trying. If you don't try then you will never know your limitations. There are those whose sit on the sideline and say "I wish I could do that." Those are the ones who will never be able to, because wishing gets you nothing. No matter what it looks like and no matter how bad it may seem, it's a start and that's all that counts. We can always do better as we learn and set our goals higher. I commend you my friend for all your efforts and banter.

 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on February 06, 2016, 03:04:55 AM
And BTW, your work shows your efforts too.

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on February 06, 2016, 03:25:57 PM
Couple of questions on the die holder...

Is the tommy bar short enough to not hit the lathe bed?  Should the die snag, you don't want the bar driven into the bed or acting as a stop to make something break.  Are there (at least) two tommy bar holes?

Are the screws located so as to correspond with the (presumed) dimples in the die edge?  Will they close the (presumed split) die when tightened?  Is there a screw positioned so as to force the die open if that is required?

If you do decide to knurl it, how are you going to hold it now that it's removed from its parent stock?  Did you think about that?

"I caught a lot of flak from several of you (especially Marv) in starting my first engine with a casting."

Considered professional advice and tutoring described as flak, heh?  I guess it's time to start volume four of the list.  :-)
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 06, 2016, 03:48:23 PM
Thanks Don and Bill.

Marv...a couple of answers...

Is the tommy bar short enough to not hit the lathe bed?  Are there (at least) two tommy bar holes?
Are the screws located so as to correspond with the (presumed) dimples in the die edge?  Will they close the (presumed split) die when tightened?  Is there a screw positioned so as to force the die open if that is required?
If you do decide to knurl it, how are you going to hold it now that it's removed from its parent stock?  Did you think about that?
I guess it's time to start volume four of the list.  :-)
The tommy bar is the same one that came with my purchased die holder. It won't be any longer since the inner diameter is the same as the original holder.
I rarely have used the tommy bar. Your question seems to imply threading under power. I generally don't do that either...although I've experimented.

Just the one tommy bar hole. I made this holder the same as the purchased one. Chris suggested more. It can always be done if needed.

The holding screws are set to the dimples in the die. That's a big reason I used the rotary table so I could get 180 degrees to the other side.
The die itself has a screw to adjust the split. I didn't know that people could use the holding screws to do that. I wouldn't have thought so. The dimples are at an angle to the split and I doubt using them applies a decent force. This die has only two dimples. I see that my smaller dies generally have three.

Yes I did think about how to hold the part if I decide to knurl it.  ;D It would be by the larger diameter. If I knurl, it won't be up to the larger diameter, nor the very other end. If necessary I can hold a live center against the end with the tailstock.

Only three volumes? That works out to less than one volume per year of knowing you. But surely those volumes are not zee-dedicated.  :Lol:
If they are...please will them to me.  ;D
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on February 06, 2016, 04:24:29 PM
Even if you're not threading under power, you need the ability to rotate the holder through 360 degrees using the tommy bars.  This implies that the bars must clear the lathe bed.  It also implies that you need at least two bars since the situation will arise where one bar is pointing down and it's awkward to continue the rotation using that bar.  Would Chris and I give you bad advice?  (Don't answer that.)

On many die holders one of the screws has a 60 degree point.  You locate the die in the holder such that this screw enters the split in the die.  Thus it can open the die when screwed down.  Typically, when the die is so oriented the dimples will align with the other holder screws that can be used to close the die.  Adjusting the die with the external holder screws is easier than having to remove it from the holder to access the integral screw.  In fact, I remove the integral screw from most of my dies for just that reason.

Since your die has an integral adjusting screw, the paragraph above is moot but it does apply to other dies that don't have such an arrangement.

Any knurling operation puts a huge drag torque on the workpiece.  If you do knurl it pay a lot of attention to how well it's held in the chuck lest it slip and mangle your beautiful holder.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 06, 2016, 04:36:59 PM
I'm not sure I follow your 1st point. When I have used the tommy bar and it begins to interfere with the bed, or if I can't get to the bar, I just rotate the chuck along with the die holder.

I do the same when tapping (which happens more often). There I almost always use a tommy bar.

Thanks for the info on die holders. My purchased one must be pretty simple. I will look into that more.

To your last point...if I knurl I'll probably use a live center in the tailstock to hold the part.
But I just looked at my knurler. Too small. I won't buy or make one just for this.

And yes...both you and Chris would give me bad advice.  ::) You certainly have in the past.  ;D
Particularly in choice of beverage.

Never bad advice with machining though which is much appreciated.
All else is suspect.  ;D
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on February 06, 2016, 05:11:27 PM
Anyone who drinks stinking hoppies can't possibly get bad advice regarding choice of beverage.  When you're at the nadir, the only direction is up.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 06, 2016, 05:17:55 PM
When you're at the nadir, the only direction is up.

Good to know where the zenith is but difficult to fight gravity getting there.
Particularly after the aforementioned beverages.  ;D
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 06, 2016, 05:36:24 PM
Once again I'm dealing with limited 'z' on the mill... :(

I decided it's time to drill/tap the holes on the ends of the cylinders...

No way could I mount the cylinder on the rotary table using the chuck. Just no room.
The following will raise all kinds of questions about concentric and accuracy...but I couldn't figure another way.
I decided to make a plug that fits into the rotary table and cylinder...

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/RotaryTable_zpsusogab0i.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/RotaryTable_zpsusogab0i.jpg.html)

A tad looser than I wanted. But there's enough slop in the holes of the covers and I don't think anyone can/will see any inaccuracy.
I decided not to worry about it.

I decided to center the table using my die holder. Took me a long time to remember how I'd done it before.
Both the die holder and rotary table are morse 2 taper.
Although the other end of the die holder doesn't fit anything I have...there's a bit of collar that's 3/4". That went into a collet.
I decided to bring the mill down to adjust the rotary and then clamp it down.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/SettingRotary_zpsme7qzjmq.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/SettingRotary_zpsme7qzjmq.jpg.html)

Since I couldn't hold the cylinder with a chuck...I decided to clamp it. This meant for every rotation I had to unclamp. No choice there so no decision.  ;D
You can't see it in this shot, but like Chris I decided to run a line the length of the cylinder and used a marker on the table.
Had to be careful to keep them lined up as I rotated the table.
The markings will show me how to position the cylinder when I decide to do the other end.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/CylinderDrilled_zpsafyucsc5.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/CylinderDrilled_zpsafyucsc5.jpg.html)

I could not remove the mill's chuck with the cylinder in place so I decided to center drill and drill all the holes.
I decided tapping will come next.

That's enough decisions for now.  ;D
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on February 06, 2016, 05:48:54 PM
Zee, you could have used co-ordinates to dril the holes and been able to clamp the cylinder to the mill table.

Regarding tommy bars I would remove them from teh die holder if you are threading under power unless you don't like your right thumb, also if its a double ended holder make sure the unused screws are not sticking out.

Making good progress
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on February 06, 2016, 05:51:41 PM
Zee do you have collets for your mill. If you do cut a piece of drill rod to fit one of you collets an drill the other end to fit you drill bit using a set screw to secure the bit. That should give you enough hi eight.'

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 06, 2016, 05:59:16 PM
Zee, you could have used co-ordinates to dril the holes and been able to clamp the cylinder to the mill table.

Regarding tommy bars I would remove them from teh die holder if you are threading under power unless you don't like your right thumb, also if its a double ended holder make sure the unused screws are not sticking out.

Thanks Jason.

I had considered using coordinates...but without DROs and having to deal with what I consider severe backlash in the table, I felt more confident with the rotary.
This holder is single-ended but the other is dual. Good reminder about the screws.

Don...just saw your post. I do have collets. This has come up before. I need to give it serious thought.
I don't have the needed drill rod. Should add to my next order.
Hm. Some stainless steel bearing shaft would work wouldn't it? I have some spare of that. Large enough for a number of drills I commonly use.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 06, 2016, 06:04:20 PM
Uh oh. I think my lathe's tool post is about to fail.
A2Z
The handle one turns to lock the cutter seems to be breaking or bending and the threads in the tool post appear to be getting stripped.

I have a tendency to be ham-fisted and tighten things too much.

I'll have to check into replacement parts but I have a feeling it's all or nothing.

I wonder if it could be re-threaded and a larger handle used?

Any one with similar experience or suggestions?
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on February 06, 2016, 06:08:00 PM
Hi Zee, yes that has happen to mine as well. It gets loose and you don't notice it and it messes up the threads. Just drill a hole close to it and tap it to fit the set screw or you could tap it larger and make a new handle.

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 06, 2016, 06:30:41 PM
Hi Zee, yes that has happen to mine as well. It gets loose and you don't notice it and it messes up the threads. Just drill a hole close to it and tap it to fit the set screw or you could tap it larger and make a new handle.

Thanks Don. I hadn't thought about a hole near it.

Say...is there any real reason for it to be threaded? Could it be used with a (there it is again) tommy bar?
I just saw that the threads are not 'starting' to strip. They ARE stripped. I can easily pull the handle out without rotating. Poo.

By the way...I asked earlier about using stainless steel bearing shaft instead of drill rod to make those drill bit holders for a collet. Thoughts?
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on February 06, 2016, 06:52:40 PM
Hi Zee, yes that has happen to mine as well. It gets loose and you don't notice it and it messes up the threads. Just drill a hole close to it and tap it to fit the set screw or you could tap it larger and make a new handle.

Thanks Don. I hadn't thought about a hole near it.

Say...is there any real reason for it to be threaded? Could it be used with a (there it is again) tommy bar?
I just saw that the threads are not 'starting' to strip. They ARE stripped. I can easily pull the handle out without rotating. Poo.

By the way...I asked earlier about using stainless steel bearing shaft instead of drill rod to make those drill bit holders for a collet. Thoughts?
I would thread it, the tommy bar would work but not that well on this. I made another bar with bigger threads on mine. Yea stainless is fine, all you need is something to hold the bit.

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on February 06, 2016, 07:21:34 PM
My A2Z post has not had any trouble with the top lever - still tight, no problem with threads. Must have gotten mine built the right day, not just after/before a vacation day.

For the bars on the die holder, I very often use one on the chuck, one on the die holder, and walk the one on the die holder from hole to hole, for larger threads that need more power. For small threads, I do like Zee mentions, hold the tommy bar in one hole on the die holder, and clamp/release the headstock with the other hand. I have never threaded under power - usually doing very short threads, no need. Guess a lot depends on the lathe, what you are used to doing.

I had the same trouble with rotab/chuck/drill/drill-chuck being too tall for the sherline mill column, finally got the taller column. Be nice if they just made the standard ones taller! At least I have a spare column to make a short bridge out of, or somethine....
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 06, 2016, 07:24:49 PM
Thanks Don.
With the threads stripped...I guess it's being used as a tommy bar now.  :lolb:
Well I'll have to address that.

Finished drilling and tapping one end of one cylinder.
For the next 3 sets I think I'll put some double-stick tape on the bottom. Less chance of the cylinder rotating on the table.

Had a comedy of errors...

When I started to tap the 1st hole, I grabbed the 8-32 tap and what? Way too big for the hole.
What gives? So I pulled out the 8-32 tap that I'd just bought. What? Much smaller than the older 8-32.
What in the world? Checked the markings on the new tap and the box. Looks like 8-32.
Checked the table for tapping drill. #36. Huh? I'm pretty sure I drilled with a #29.
Checked the drawing...4BA or 6-32. 6? Well that would explain the #29.

Oh good grief. I got mixed up with the die holder and tried to use the old 8-32.
And the 8 on the new tap box is actually a 6. Even the 6 on the tap itself looked like an 8.

Tiny type. Eyes are going.

So all is good. But boy did I scare myself.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 06, 2016, 07:28:09 PM
For small threads, I do like Zee mentions, hold the tommy bar in one hole on the die holder, and clamp/release the headstock with the other hand.

? What do you mean clamp/release the headstock? I just turn it. (The chuck.)

Let's say I have some rod in the chuck that I'm going to thread.
Die holder goes onto the tailstock.
Start threading...
Whether I turn the die holder or the chuck...what's the difference?

Now I have a mini-lathe. I can wrap my hand around the chuck...basically turning it like a die holder.
Hm...I don't even know how to clamp the headstock.

Confused. And it's not even stinking hoppie time.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on February 06, 2016, 07:40:37 PM
For small threads, I do like Zee mentions, hold the tommy bar in one hole on the die holder, and clamp/release the headstock with the other hand.

? What do you mean clamp/release the headstock? I just turn it. (The chuck.)

Let's say I have some rod in the chuck that I'm going to thread.
Die holder goes onto the tailstock.
Start threading...
Whether I turn the die holder or the chuck...what's the difference?

Now I have a mini-lathe. I can wrap my hand around the chuck...basically turning it like a die holder.
Hm...I don't even know how to clamp the headstock.

Confused. And it's not even stinking hoppie time.

No difference in result. On my chuck, it is easier (for me at least) to hold the chuck/part in the headstock with left hand (what I meant by 'clamp'), turn the die holder with tommy bar in right hand, then let go with left hand, pull tommy bar back with right hand to starting position, and repeat. Easier for me that way with 3-jaw chuck, since on the sherline it is so narrow.  For larger threads that need more power to move, I'll put tommy bar in the fixed part of the chuck, move that back/forth with the left hand on that tommy bar, and turn/change holes with tommy bar in right hand on die holder. I think we were in violent agreement using different words for same end result!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 06, 2016, 07:44:28 PM
On my chuck, it is easier (for me at least) to hold the chuck/part in the headstock with left hand (what I meant by 'clamp'), turn the die holder with tommy bar in right hand, then let go with left hand, pull tommy bar back with right hand to starting position, and repeat.

That's exactly what I do. With or without the tommy bar.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on February 06, 2016, 07:57:33 PM
Hi Zee

Yes I'm still watching you from the shadows  :lolb:

I knurled my die holder and I'm able to run all but the larger threads while holding it by hand. The knurls are not sharp and when I let go and it spins in my hand, it doesn't seem to remove any skin. :Lol:
I did make a special holder for the large dies (5/16-1/2) with a nice spider handle on it.

Glad to see you are still getting some shop time and making good progress.
Dave
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on February 06, 2016, 08:17:41 PM
Now that I read Chris and Zee's descriptions of how they use a die holder on their lathe, I appreciate that my earlier advice was a product of the size of my lathe.

With a lathe the size of mine turning the chuck by hand against the resistance of the belts, countershaft and motor is not very easy.  The easiest way would involve using the clutch every time I want to move the chuck.  Hence, for me, rotating the die holder through complete revolutions is the easiest solution.  But seeing how they do it, I can appreciate that only one tommy bar is needed. 
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 06, 2016, 08:25:57 PM
Yes I'm still watching you from the shadows  :lolb:

Come out, come out, wherever you are.  ;D
Or rather...thanks for the warning.  ;D

I knurled my die holder and I'm able to run all but the larger threads while holding it by hand. The knurls are not sharp and when I let go and it spins in my hand, it doesn't seem to remove any skin.

Yeah no problem with my purchased die holder. Your die holders really look quality.

I'll still have to watch out for the screws on the double ended die holder; as Marv mentioned.

Marv...That's certainly something for me to keep in mind when I move (and I will) to a larger lathe/mill. Procedures used with the mini won't necessarily apply.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on February 06, 2016, 08:36:50 PM
For all you folks with limited Z-room...

Drilling bolt hole circles for six holes using coordinates is particularly easy.  You only need to calculate three numbers...

r = bolt circle RADIUS, i.e. bolt circle diameter divided by two.

Calculate

a = r * cos(60) = 0.5 * r
b = r * sin(60) = 0.866 * r

Then drill holes at each of these (x,y) locations...

(r,0)
(a,b)
(-a,b)
(-r,0)
(-a,-b)
(a,-b)

If you don't have a DRO, use dial indicator(s) to establish the offsets, thus avoiding the backlash issue. (That's what I do.)

There's a program on my page (BOLTCIRC) that will calculate coordinates for any number of holes but it's overkill for a problem this trivial.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: fcheslop on February 06, 2016, 10:30:58 PM
I find this tool very useful, may take some adapting for youre lathe but well worth the time
http://www.hemingwaykits.com/acatalog/Spindle_Driving_Handle___Myford_Lathes.html
It works on the same idea as a rawl bolt
cheers
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 06, 2016, 10:33:00 PM
Oops.

This is what you get when you have brain farts, lapses in attention, straying from process,...in general being  :facepalm:

Wiping the table down after the first side...thus wiping my registration mark was a bad idea.
The double stick tape was a bad idea. It was easier for the cylinder to rotate when I clamped. I think it got worse as more WD-40 was used during drilling.
Forgetting to check the registration of the side of the cylinder to the mark I made on the table after every 60 degree rotation was a bad idea. Probably the worst of them.

The 1st three holes are spot on. The 4th I think close enough.
The 5th was way off but I hadn't noticed.
When I started the 6th I had the 'oh crap' moment.

But I was lucky. I shouldn't have been. But I was. The last two holes were so far off I could redo them without hitting the bad ones.

You can see the two pair. One near middle top and one to the right. Actually three. The one left of middle I hadn't drilled. That was the center drill when I said 'oh crap'.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/Oops_1_zpshqjyti72.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/Oops_1_zpshqjyti72.jpg.html)

And those scribe marks? A poor attempt (albeit successful) to ensure the holes on one end match the position on the other end.

As I said, I was lucky. There's very little room for lucky in this hobby.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 06, 2016, 10:36:31 PM
I find this tool very useful, may take some adapting for youre lathe but well worth the time
http://www.hemingwaykits.com/acatalog/Spindle_Driving_Handle___Myford_Lathes.html
It works on the same idea as a rawl bolt

Interesting idea. Might work on the mini. Would have to use an expanding mandrel I think to attach the handle to the rear of the spindle.
Wonder how easy it would be to feel what's happening at the chuck.

Hm. Would require using my left arm to twirl the handle.
I'm not always friends with my left arm.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: fcheslop on February 06, 2016, 10:45:42 PM
Its is just an expanding mandrel with a pin that make it self releasing although thats just a luxury
Thats the advantage of been sinister handed :Lol:(cuddywifter)
Well worth the effort making one I use it often for threading
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on February 06, 2016, 10:48:39 PM
When Vati saw me do stuff like that he would mutter something that sounded a lot like, "Schusselig Stümper".  Maybe we need a new Post-It - Sei nicht Schusselig".
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 06, 2016, 10:51:29 PM
Its is just an expanding mandrel with a pin that make it self releasing although thats just a luxury
Thats the advantage of been sinister handed :Lol:
Well worth the effort making one I use it often for threading

Oh I see. The mandrel can just stay in place.

I hope the evil is limited to your hand. Don't let it spread.  ;D
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 06, 2016, 10:57:37 PM
When Vati saw me do stuff like that he would mutter something that sounded a lot like, "Schusselig Stümper".  Maybe we need a new Post-It - Sei nicht Schusselig".

Had to look that up.

Scatterbrained bungler.

Yep...it fits well with today's bungling.

More interesting to me was "Vati". I used that as a kid...I did not know (or remember) it was spelled that way.

Really makes me wish I knew my German better. Such a shame. Mom is German. I lived in Germany for a few years as a kid.
Spent loads of time with my German grandparents in Munich.

If you don't use it...you lose it.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: fcheslop on February 06, 2016, 11:00:59 PM
No you have to remove it before powering up. The self extraction bit is to save having to give it a wee biff to release it
cheers
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on February 06, 2016, 11:01:40 PM
Fortunately on this model the cylinder walls are very thick, so less risk of punching through, plus the caps will hide this one. To hide further you could thread the bad holes and run in a threaded part of a bolt.

One thing that Kozo showed a lot on his train models books - make a drilling jig out of thinner material using the rotary table, clamp that to the cylinder, and use it to guide the holes for the bolts. Make a fake cylinder cap out of a thin slice of steel, or maybe slightly thicker aluminum, just has to have the inner part where it would register to the cylinder bore, and use the rotary table to drill the holes in that. Then clamp that in place on cylinder without the rotary table, and use the x/y on the table to align each hole for drilling. If clamping is tough, hold in place for first hole, thread that and run in a bolt to hold it for the rest. Be sure to have the jig lined up properly so the holes at either end line up properly. That was one huge takeaway from Kozo's books (there were lots), make jigs since they save time in the long run, and make repeatability better with basic tools. This could solve your z-axis height issue.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on February 06, 2016, 11:03:23 PM
No you have to remove it before powering up. The self extraction bit is to save having to give it a wee biff to release it
cheers

'A wee biff' - I like that phrase - wanted to do that to the back of coworkers heads sometimes.... and them to me I'm sure!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 06, 2016, 11:03:40 PM
No you have to remove it before powering up. The self extraction bit is to save having to give it a wee biff to release it
cheers

Ah. Thanks Frazer.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 06, 2016, 11:07:04 PM
No you have to remove it before powering up. The self extraction bit is to save having to give it a wee biff to release it
cheers

'A wee biff' - I like that phrase - wanted to do that to the back of coworkers heads sometimes.... and them to me I'm sure!

That's funny. I was replying to Frazer and thinking about that 'wee biff' and how I enjoy the language in the U.K.
One thing that always struck me when I was working there...not just the terms, but they tend to use more adjectives than we do.
Made things more colorful and interesting.

[EDIT] Oh and thanks for reminding me Chris. I have several of Kozo's books. Time to bring them out again.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on February 06, 2016, 11:18:37 PM
Oh - and adding to the post earlier about the drill jig - you may be tempted to use one of the existing cylinder caps for the jig, but since the holes in those are larger for bolt clearance, there would be too much error. Unless you have not drilled the caps yet - I forget, am too lazy to look back! - drill one cap with tap-size holes, use it for jig, then go back and drill them out larger for clearance....
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 06, 2016, 11:38:38 PM
Oh - and adding to the post earlier about the drill jig - you may be tempted to use one of the existing cylinder caps for the jig, but since the holes in those are larger for bolt clearance, there would be too much error. Unless you have not drilled the caps yet - I forget, am too lazy to look back! - drill one cap with tap-size holes, use it for jig, then go back and drill them out larger for clearance....

Drill jig? Earlier post? I'm also too lazy to look back.

Haven't drilled the caps yet. Plan was to use the rotary table and just go around with a slightly larger drill. 60 degrees per hole. Should just line up with cylinder holes.

You're scaring me dude.  ;D What am I missing?
You mention drilling one cap with tap-size holes and using it for a jig. Why tap-size holes? Aren't they small to take a thread? And what jig?

Okay...I'm stopping right here tonight.

Well...not because of that. Is time for supper and 'stinking hoppies'!!!!!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on February 07, 2016, 12:08:32 AM
Oh - and adding to the post earlier about the drill jig - you may be tempted to use one of the existing cylinder caps for the jig, but since the holes in those are larger for bolt clearance, there would be too much error. Unless you have not drilled the caps yet - I forget, am too lazy to look back! - drill one cap with tap-size holes, use it for jig, then go back and drill them out larger for clearance....

Drill jig? Earlier post? I'm also too lazy to look back.

Haven't drilled the caps yet. Plan was to use the rotary table and just go around with a slightly larger drill. 60 degrees per hole. Should just line up with cylinder holes.

You're scaring me dude.  ;D What am I missing?
You mention drilling one cap with tap-size holes and using it for a jig. Why tap-size holes? Aren't they small to take a thread? And what jig?

Okay...I'm stopping right here tonight.

Well...not because of that. Is time for supper and 'stinking hoppies'!!!!!

The earlier post talking about kozos drill jig use, post 247...
Tap size holes, as in holes sized for tapping the cylinder, vs clearance holes in the caps. Go back about 5 posts... After the S.H. wears off!   In between the banter posts was some actual information, I know that is not allowed... :Lol:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 07, 2016, 12:58:06 AM
The earlier post talking about kozos drill jig use, post 247...
Tap size holes, as in holes sized for tapping the cylinder, vs clearance holes in the caps. Go back about 5 posts...

Post 452? Getting Kozo's books out. I do remember using one hole to help 'clamp' for others.
Do you recall the particular book?

After the S.H. wears off!   In between the banter posts was some actual information, I know that is not allowed... :Lol:

Oh no! I've been breaking the rules?
I mean...we've been breaking the rules?
I mean...you've been breaking the rules?

What's not allowed? The banter or the actual information?
Are you trying to tell me you've been giving me actual information? Actual?  :Lol:

Maybe it's me.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on February 07, 2016, 02:05:53 AM
Yes, 452. Where the heck did I get 247? Brain to finger connection is loose!   :zap:

He used that technique a lot. I spent most time with the Building The New Shay book, so in there. He used it for almost anything that had covers or mating pieces with multiple bolts. With a drill jig, you dont even need an x y table, can put part in freestanding mill vise and use drill press.

In that book, first page I looked at uses it, page 49, upper right.

Later on, very relevant, page 170, drilling cylinder cap bolt holes and valve chest holes. I think first reference is page 18, end brackets.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on February 07, 2016, 02:10:20 AM
Yes, 452. Where the heck did I get 247? Brain to finger connection is loose!   :zap:
To many left turns and Stinking Hoppies........  :lolb: :lolb:

Don  :cheers:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on February 07, 2016, 02:42:50 AM
Yes, 452. Where the heck did I get 247? Brain to finger connection is loose!   :zap:
To many left turns and Stinking Hoppies........  :lolb: :lolb:

Don  :cheers:

Are you saying that I shoulda Toke a left turn at Albuquerque?  Bugs would be proud of me!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 07, 2016, 12:41:12 PM
 :lolb: :lolb:
One has to be real careful on this forum.  :ROFL:

The new Shay. The one book I don't have.
Well I wanted it anyway. Whether I need it or not.

Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on February 07, 2016, 03:10:58 PM
:lolb: :lolb:
One has to be real careful on this forum.  :ROFL:

The new Shay. The one book I don't have.
Well I wanted it anyway. Whether I need it or not.

The A3 loco book has same jig usage, almost every page starting with 15. For cylinder holes, check page 86. Very handy technique for matching holes.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 07, 2016, 03:41:10 PM
The A3 loco book has same jig usage, almost every page starting with 15. For cylinder holes, check page 86. Very handy technique for matching holes.

Interesting. I have that book. In fact, I was going through it in detail a couple of months ago.
Drawing it up in CubifyDesign. Haven't gotten past the tender yet though.

Seems like reading for me doesn't make things stick. Have to do.

I've been going through your Shay thread this morning. About halfway through. I wish I'd been on the forum more during that time.

BTW According to your last post in that thread...you're not done. What's up?  ;D
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Doc on February 07, 2016, 04:06:36 PM


Seems like reading for me doesn't make things stick. Have to do.


Seems like reading for me doesn't make things stick. Have to do.



I can relate to that Carl HAHAHA ;)
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on February 07, 2016, 05:16:18 PM
BTW According to your last post in that thread...you're not done. What's up?  ;D
The build thread ended with installing oil lines, etc that it was tough to show in pics, all up underneath.
There is another thread in the done project forum with things done, also mentioned another small loco, gauge 1, that has been ongoing. Been running that one a lot with local group. There are no 3.5" tracks in town here, but big group of g1 guys so I have been running with them
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 07, 2016, 08:11:51 PM
This is not going well. But before I get into that...

I made a fixture from the one bad cover. Turned the outer hub a little to fit the rotary table. Then trepanned the other side so that a cover's flange would fit.
This picture shows one of the covers already done.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/FixtureCover_zps1es4sva5.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/FixtureCover_zps1es4sva5.jpg.html)

Here's the setup. Quick and easy. Not happy with the clamping. To much angle on the block. First attempt had the step piece in the wrong location and that resulted in a little ding.
I went round with the center drill first. Then drilled the 1st hole being careful not to go too far. Then I set the Z stop before doing the rest.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/FixtureDrilling_zpskplzpjbu.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/FixtureDrilling_zpskplzpjbu.jpg.html)

Here's the cover mounted on a cylinder.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/CoverMounted_zpsqkslu9kv.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/CoverMounted_zpsqkslu9kv.jpg.html)

Although the cover fits...it does not fit well. The holes between the cover and cylinder are not as good as I expected/hoped.
I have a feeling I went awry at the very beginning when I bored the cylinders. (I've been awry throughout...but I needn't explain that story.)
I believe I have the cover on the wrong end and/or cylinder but that doesn't explain things.

I have a bad feeling about this. I will continue a bit further to see just how bad things are...or if recoverable.
I suspect a redo is in the offing.

If I'm not happy enough then I'll probably set aside the cylinder work and do some other parts.

A little success goes a long way towards helping me out of a hole.


Rats. It's only just after 3 o'clock. Too early.  ;D

[EDIT] As for the fixture...I'll be rotating it a bit for each cover so that I don't hit the holes drilled from a previous cover.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Doc on February 07, 2016, 08:50:00 PM
Looks good Carl   :ThumbsUp: wish I felt up to some shop.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on February 07, 2016, 09:13:54 PM
Looks good to me Zee. You might want to make some smaller hold down straps for clamping, that would help doing work on your RT.

DON
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 07, 2016, 09:41:08 PM
Thanks for the encouragement guys.

I finished the other covers.

But one doesnt' fit.  :rant:
You'll recall the cruddy time I had drilling/tapping the holes on one end of one cylinder.
Yep. That's the one.
Not that I'm happy with the others. But too early to tell if it's bad enough.

I have couple of choices...not counting starting all over.

1) Make the holes slightly more like a slot. I think it could work. The nuts should cover.
2) Redo the holes on the cylinder end. But then they'll be off by 30 degrees and not match the pattern of the others. Although it would be on a piston rod end and most likely not noticed.

I think I can get the cover on with just a couple of the bolts.

So I believe I'll experiment a bit and see if a piston rod would still hold true.
If so, then I'll go for option 1.
If not...then it's a do-over.

Not so bad a track record compared to past projects. So far just one do-over part and it came in handy as a fixture.

They call me - Stümper
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on February 07, 2016, 09:52:53 PM
Sounds like you may be remaking one of the cylinders too Zee. Do you have the material left for that?  Bummer in any event that it doesn't fit properly, but it happens to us all.

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on February 07, 2016, 10:20:16 PM
Sounds like you may be remaking one of the cylinders too Zee. Do you have the material left for that?  Bummer in any event that it doesn't fit properly, but it happens to us all.

Bill

I think the spare cylinder stock got turned into a tailstock die holder the other day...  :facepalm2:

If the one that does not fit is the top cover, thats not so bad, enlarging the holes in the cover has been done before (couple of mine on earlier engines, as a matter of fact!).   Option 2 would only work out well if you redid both ends of that cylinder - remember you have to clear the valve and mounting flats, plus all the bolts from them too. All of us have 'extra' parts from a build, you will get there I'm sure!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 07, 2016, 10:24:51 PM
Sounds like you may be remaking one of the cylinders too Zee. Do you have the material left for that?

Not sure yet about the cylinder. Possibly.
No material left. I used what I had to make the die holder.  ;D
Not a biggie.

What bothers me is that the diameter along which I placed the holes on the cylinder end is slightly bigger than the diameter for the covers.
The cylinder's end was nearly 2" higher than the cover's end when I did the holes.

I don't think I moved the table. The whole point was to do this all in the same setup.

The mill? Tram looked okay when I did some parts just a while back. But again, the holes for the cylinders were done nearly 2" higher than the covers.
But if there's a slight tilt to the column and the head is tilted too...I could tram okay but the Y (even X) may change for different heights?
[EDIT: I think what I just said may be garbage. But I'm pretty sure I've had this problem before where Y or X changed as I worked at different heights].

No?

Hm...I'm betting the mill. Will have to take some measurements. I've not done much to it except tram it.

Not that I'm blaming the mill. It would be my fault.  ;D

Just saw your post Chris. Yeah was just thinking all it might take is enlarging the holes. It's close!
And the registration of the flanges to the cylinder is good (or seems to be).
A bit more experimentation to make sure.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: PStechPaul on February 07, 2016, 10:36:21 PM
I've made my share of mistakes, for sure, and sometimes I have learned a lot trying to salvage the boo-boos. Sometimes I have succeeded, other times I have just made more swarf and junk pieces that might get repurposed elsewhere. I'm enjoying your build log as much for the oddball chatter and tangential comments, as the actual machining content.  :atcomputer: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on February 07, 2016, 10:37:14 PM
If they are close, then drilling out the holes a drill size or two would do the trick, as long as the bolt heads will cover it. Been there. Done that!

Does mill have lockdown fittings to keep the table from shifting? Sometimes just vibration from work will make the handwheels turn a little.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 08, 2016, 12:55:52 AM
Thanks Paul!

Chris...I checked again. I'm thinking not close enough.

Table was locked down in both Y and X. I've gotten better with my habit of checking that. Not so well yet with checking that I actually tightened up the drill chuck!  ;D But that wasn't the case here.

I'm wondering if it's worthwhile to drill out the holes in the cylinder, plug them, and try again. Or just make another cylinder.

The upside with redoing the cylinder is that I know it will be better than the 1st two.
Which brings me to the downside.
I'll want to redo both.  ;D

Just to be clear. I'm bummed but not bummed. I believe I've made progress in my skill. Can't expect progress to mean no boo-boos.

I'll stop now before 'blather' sets in.  ;D
Oh it did? Sorry.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on February 08, 2016, 01:02:50 AM
Practice makes prefect.

Wait, let me try that again..

Practise make perphect.

I'll keep trying!   :ROFL:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 08, 2016, 01:07:12 AM
Practice makes prefect.

Wait, let me try that again..

Practise make perphect.

I'll keep trying!   :ROFL:

If you need help with that...you're in the wrong place.  ;D
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: kettrinboy on February 08, 2016, 09:17:47 AM
Hi Zee
i would definitely have a go at plugging the holes in the cylinder , drill and tap the "bad" holes oversize and make a length of threaded aluminium studding to screw in and saw off as you go round the holes , then mill or turn the top of the plugs within a few thou of the face and finish them flush by rubbing down on a sheet of fine emery on a surface plate or similar , done well you will hardly see where the plugs are, part of learning this hobby is knowing how to get out of a bind and learning how to plug wrongly drilled holes is one of the basic techniques.
regards Geoff
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on February 08, 2016, 09:39:00 AM
Why not just forget all the holes you have in the cylinder, rotate the end covers 30degrees and drill new sets of six holes at each end which will fall betwen the dodgey ones.

If you use the existing cover holes to spot through to the cylinder even if the cover holes are off you will still get them all to line up as long as you mark the orientation of the covers.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 08, 2016, 11:31:09 AM
Woke up this morning with the very thought Jason has.
Simple. And I've got the covers to set/doublecheck the hole placement.
Thanks!

Thanks Geoff. Had it been one hole that was wrong I would have gone that way.

First job is to try and find out what went wrong.
I know the biggest reason for the bad end was the sticky tape and lapse in verifying position.
Need to find out why all the holes are on a larger diameter than the ones in the cover.

For that matter...which one is right. I'll check that first.
Had I moved the table between cylinders and covers...that would explain it too.

Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 08, 2016, 10:52:36 PM
I checked the mill with a square and bearing shaft. Moved the head up and down.
Not that it's perfect...but not nearly the error I'm seeing in the holes.

Further inspection shows I was wrong about the diameter of the placement of the cylinder holes being larger than the covers.
Half are spot on, or nearly, the other half moves out.
That tells me the cylinder was tilted.
Looks like about .02" or slightly more. If there were swarf or something under the cylinder...that may explain some of the problem. I tried to be careful about that so I'm thinking it may be more of a problem of clamping.

I'm not looking further into it. That is, I'm not going to calculate how much had to be under the cylinder to tilt it enough to have that error 2" inches away.

I checked both cylinders with the covers on both ends that take the piston rod and put a long rod through. One is slightly more tight than the other...but loose enough to know that a bit of running in (or better rod) will be okay. So the bores still seem fine at this point.

So I'm not in deep poo-poo yet. Not even with T when I nodded off during her game.  ;D

I'll redo the cover holes on the one cylinder. Both ends. I don't think I need trouble with the other cylinder.

Thanks for listening to my blather and for the help!

I had a crap day today and this has picked me up a bit.  :pinkelephant:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 09, 2016, 12:59:09 AM
Thanks for listening to my blather and for the help!

I mean 'reading' my blather.

And you're doing it again.  :lolb:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on February 09, 2016, 01:06:38 AM
Thanks for listening to my blather and for the help!

I mean 'reading' my blather.

And you're doing it again.  :lolb:

I ignored the blather, concentrated on the bluster.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 09, 2016, 02:13:01 AM
Quote from: crueby link=topic=5606.msg113272#msg113272 date=1454979998
I ignored the blather, concentrated on the bluster.
[/quote

Bluster? Whose?

Can't be mine. I'd have to have something to bluster about.  ;D
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Pete49 on February 09, 2016, 02:19:25 AM
Loving this thread as much for the blather as the bluster  :LittleDevil: oh and the metal work  ;D
Pete
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 09, 2016, 11:37:31 PM
Thanks Pete.
...and that's no bluster.  ;D

Metal work...sigh. Not on the back burner...but life is getting in the way.
Roof, chimney, gutters, fridge, door, helping the little one move, T...well not so much T. Not that I'll admit.
Everything seems to happen at once. And always at bonus time.
A new mill is in jeopardy.  :rant:

The plan...

Marking the cylinder using the covers. Using a transfer punch so I know where the holes should be.
Then drill and tap the one 'bad' cylinder. The other cylinder I'll leave alone.

My indecision is starting to waffle.

New mill or new lathe? Still a few months off.
I know the mill I want. The lathe...I think one of the big things is a collet chuck.

One of the forum members is ignoring me.
Might mean a  :slap: upside his head.  :Lol:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on February 10, 2016, 03:24:10 AM
Zee, when you drilled the holes, did you spot drill first to prevent the drill bit from walking a little before biting in? On smaller bits especially it can sdkate to the side. I use a center drill bit first, others use a spot drill (think that is correct term). Starting a small drill with a punched mark in aluminum can be bad since it makes a work hardened spot that can make the bit skate more.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 10, 2016, 11:13:54 AM
when you drilled the holes, did you spot drill first

Yes. I use a center drill bit.
I haven't done the new holes yet. The punch marks are light and just so I can verify that that's where I'm going to center drill and drill.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: PStechPaul on February 10, 2016, 11:19:24 PM
You probably know this, but you can set a divider so that the points are at the distance of the radius of the 6-hole bolt circle, and then walk it from each hole location to the next to verify that dimensions are correct. This works well if the locations are prick punched or center punched.

Also, make sure the center punch is ground to a 90 degree included angle (or even larger). This will help guide the center drill or spotting drill to the exact center. There is some difference in opinion about the angle of the spotting drill:

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/69380-Spotting-Drill-Lesson-Needed?highlight=spotting+drill (http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/69380-Spotting-Drill-Lesson-Needed?highlight=spotting+drill)

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/69366-drilled-holes-out-of-place?highlight=spotting+drill (http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/69366-drilled-holes-out-of-place?highlight=spotting+drill)

One reference calls for the 90 degree spotting drill for regular HSS twist drills, and 135 degrees for carbide. The sharper angle allows the cutting edges to hit the outer diameter of the hole, rather than the chisel point of the drill. The wider angle causes the point of the drill to slide toward the center. So it may depend on how well the drill is sharpened, and if it has a "split point" or other geometry.

I have a spotting drill that can be made from a piece of round HSS or a broken center drill, and it is very stiff so that you don't have to worry about it moving or breaking, as can happen with the point of a center drill:

(http://enginuitysystems.com/pix/tools/Spotting_Drill_2_20140506015353.jpg)

(http://enginuitysystems.com/pix/tools/Spotting_Drill_2_20140506015734.jpg)

I also have a longer double-ended spotting drill:

(http://enginuitysystems.com/pix/tools/Spotting_Drill_20140506015107.jpg)

You can see how the point is ground so that there is a well-defined center point and the cutting edges are 90 degrees to it:
(http://enginuitysystems.com/pix/tools/Spotting_Drill_20140506014849.jpg)
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 10, 2016, 11:59:24 PM
Thanks Paul.

This brings up a question...

spotting drills vs center drills

(I believe there's been discussion on this before...but well...don't remember.)

My center drills have a tip to them. I see that the spotting drills do not.

What are the thoughts on advantages/disadvantages of both?
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on February 11, 2016, 12:17:23 AM
Tip angle on spotting drills can be different, as paul mentions. Some people have had the tip on center drills break, I never had that happen, but usually don't drill very deep with it.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: 10KPete on February 11, 2016, 12:34:51 AM
Carl, there are spotting drills and there are combined drill/countersinks which are used to create...... centers! Thus frequently
called......center drills!! 

Couldn't help throw that in.....

Pete
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 11, 2016, 12:42:06 AM
I've busted one tip before. And it's a big fear doing it again while working on the cylinders right now.

Pete....argh!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: bruedney on February 11, 2016, 01:53:41 AM
I use a 1/8'' double ended stub (or spot) drill now after breaking small centre drill tips
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 11, 2016, 02:03:14 AM
I'm getting the impression the spot drill seems to be the way to go.

But I'm still wondering why (other than breaking a tip does not seem to be uncommon).
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: yogi on February 11, 2016, 02:25:59 AM
You will find a lot of opinion on this, I guess. So, I'll add mine to the pile...
To spot a center punch, I use a center drill. Short, rigid, and the small tip help with visibility to line up with the center punch. I have never had a tip break off on me. I use 90 degree spot drills on the CNC and spot deep enough to also chamfer the hole.
Anyway, I don't think it makes a huge difference what you use as drill. Make sure the center punch is accurate, by checking it with a magnifying glass.

I hope that helps.  :)
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: 10KPete on February 11, 2016, 02:32:07 AM
It has been my experience that breaking the ends off of comb.drillc/sinks is caused by pushing them too hard with too little
cutting oil and not enough clearing of chips (pecking). That all assumes the drill is properly guided in line with the proposed hole!

If you treat them like a small drill bit, which the end is, less troubles will issue. They need to be properly sharp too!

Pete
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 11, 2016, 03:11:43 AM
Thanks all.

I finished drilling/tapping the cylinder again. Both ends so they would match.
Assembled the covers and put into the lathe to turn the whole thing down a bit and make it look better.
(Unfortunately I got a fat thumbprint in the picture.  ;D)
The cover at the headstock has 3 screws in so I could fit the chuck around it.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/CylinderTurned_zpsg5fcuhrt.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/CylinderTurned_zpsg5fcuhrt.jpg.html)

The diameter is supposed to 2.25". I bought 2.25" round so I knew it would end up a tad smaller.
It ended up at about 2.2. That should be okay if I take it into account for the steam chest and mounting to the bottom plate.

I still have to do the other cylinder. Hopefully...I can get it to 2.2" as well. If it goes more, then this cylinder will have to be turned down some more.

After some measurements I determined that the diameter, along which the holes were drilled, is about .01 shy along on the radius. Maybe a tad more.
The studs (SHCS for now) seem kind of close to the outer hub. So the nuts may be a problem.

I'm just glad I got some machine time in.  :pinkelephant:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: joe d on February 11, 2016, 03:16:31 AM
Looking good now, Zee. 

If the nuts turn out to be too big, get some the next size down, drill them out and tap them to fit your studs...

As to Centre Drills and spot drills, I have some of each, it usually is a question of which comes to hand first
that controls which I use...  I will sadly admit that I do have a number of the missing the little end through
pushing them too  hard...

Joe
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on February 11, 2016, 03:37:23 AM
Nice save on the cylinder! The thumbprint just proves its yours.

I had same issue on hub at first on mine, chucked it up again and turned it down slightly so the hex bolt heads would clear. That surface is not critical so no biggie.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on February 11, 2016, 03:47:51 AM
Looking good Zee and glad you finally got some shop time......... :ThumbsUp:

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 11, 2016, 11:42:51 AM
Thanks guys.
Next job will be to finish the covers that take the gland.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: yogi on February 11, 2016, 01:39:21 PM
Looking good Zee!  :ThumbsUp:
It's staring to come together.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on February 11, 2016, 03:16:12 PM
Nice recovery Zee. You can be happy with that!

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 12, 2016, 04:01:42 PM
Thanks Yogi and Bill.
Yeah I'm happy so far.
Last tapped hole was the scariest. Usually something bad happens at the last operation.
But it's not the last is it?
Oh no.

Mounted a cover on the lathe to drill and tap the 1/2-40...checked that it was centered.
Nope. Not going to drill that. I have too many problems with larger drills. (Something to work on.)

Decided to bore it. That went better than I'd hope.

But the tool post finally gave out.  :rant:

A little help from Don and I drilled/tapped the handle hole a bit larger.
All I had was 1/4-20. Works okay. Need to make a slightly longer handle.
Need the lathe for that. But...not finished with the cover.

Time to tap the 1/2-40".  :rant: No holder.

So my questions...

When shopping for a tap holder (and I mean the T type or such so I can manually turn it)...I see things like 1/4 to 1/2".
But that doesn't tell me (I think) that the tap will fit.

Are the holding ends of tap 'standard'?
The holding end of the tap is a square about .275.

I'm thinking of this...will that do? I assume the T can slide.

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=318-0020&PMPXNO=942333&PARTPG=INLMK32

Thanks.

In the meantime...I'll see what I can do on the mill.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on February 12, 2016, 04:20:08 PM
The 1/4 to 1/2 is the size of the tap square Zee. That's a pretty good range but they do make smaller T handles. A quick tap handle is a pair if vise grips if you have a tap guide.
Amazon has a set of them in different sizes.....http://www.amazon.com/Kaufhof-ATW-0053-T-Handle-Wrench-Solid/dp/B003GKJYKI/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1455294143&sr=8-5&keywords=T+tap+handles

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on February 12, 2016, 04:21:13 PM
There are two types of t handle tap holders I've seen, the ones likke you show with round collets, other type grip in the square shank end like this one
http://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/05041660

My preference is the square shank style, fit a wider ranges and dont slip.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 12, 2016, 04:46:55 PM
The 1/4 to 1/2 is the size of the tap square Zee. That's a pretty good range but they do make smaller T handles. A quick tap handle is a pair if vise grips if you have a tap guide.

Ah...it's the shank size. Good to know.
The one I have is about .275 so that range would work.
I have no tap guide and I'm not good enough to use vise grips. I fear I wouldn't keep things straight.

There are two types of t handle tap holders I've seen, the ones likke you show with round collets, other type grip in the square shank end like this one
My preference is the square shank style, fit a wider ranges and dont slip.

I couldn't tell the one I'd shown was round. I was looking for square.

Thinking this over, along with what you all have said...I realize I need a way to hold it.
I see that some have a dimple in the end against which I can place the tailstock (with a center).

But I found this one. Looks like it would do. No?

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INLMKD&PMPXNO=5810007&PMAKA=325-4922

I have to place an order for some 1/8" end mills anyway.
Gotta think what else I want need.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: sco on February 12, 2016, 04:53:33 PM
That Enco one looks good Zee but have you checked your taps for the size of square - I have a feeling you will find that one will only do the larger end of the range and not the smaller tap sizes we frequently use.

I like the Starrett tap wrenches - I mostly use their 93A and 93B,

Simon.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 12, 2016, 05:03:45 PM
Thanks Simon.

Yes. I have one for smaller taps. It has a sliding rod in the end that I can hold either by a chuck in the tailstock or a 1/4" collet in the mill.
Good for taps with square shanks that go up to 1/4".
I needed one for this 1/2"-40 tap that has a 0.275" square shank.

Thanks for the help everyone.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on February 12, 2016, 05:18:37 PM
INMNSHO, a T-tap wrench without an integral guide pin is worthless.  I think the one from ENCO is such but it doesn't look like my piloted one so I can't be sure.  Many are center-drilled at the top of the shank to take a guide center but as soon as the tap bites, the tool will draw away from the center.  They're a PIA to use.  Get the type with a free-turning sliding pin as the guide.

Remember, the guide pin isn't just to initially align the tap.  It serves  to resist side pressure as the tap descends into the work.  It's the inadvertent side pressure that breaks taps.

Of course, you could make an insert that would hold a tap for your die holder.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on February 12, 2016, 05:46:24 PM
INMNSHO, a T-tap wrench without an integral guide pin is worthless.
Of course, you could make an insert that would hold a tap for your die holder.
Yep, make it like this one. Just make sure to make the front hole large enough to except a collar that holds the tap. And make different size collars for the different tap shank sizes.
(http://i1247.photobucket.com/albums/gg629/don1966/Benson%20vertical%20steam%20engine/imagejpg2_zps1df53f75.jpg)
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 12, 2016, 06:02:04 PM
Many are center-drilled at the top of the shank to take a guide center but as soon as the tap bites, the tool will draw away from the center.  They're a PIA to use.  Get the type with a free-turning sliding pin as the guide.
Remember, the guide pin isn't just to initially align the tap.  It serves  to resist side pressure as the tap descends into the work.  It's the inadvertent side pressure that breaks taps.
Of course, you could make an insert that would hold a tap for your die holder.

Thanks Marv. Yes, the center-drill at the top of that one holder bothered me for that reason. I think (not sure) that the other I chose has some slide to it, not as much as my other holder (or Don's) but easier to adjust the tailstock as the tap goes in. The side pressure issue is why I want the tailstock (or mill collet) to hold the other end. In the 'early' days I've done it by hand...with either disastrous or unsatisfactory results.

Don...how is it (i.e. I'm guessing the collar) holding the tap's shank? And how is the collar held?

Is there a tommy bar hole?

I see the idea of a collar (or Marv's insert) that could be used in the die holder. Neat idea.
That just leaves understanding how the die is held in the collar.

Make a square hole?

 :lolb: yeah right  :lolb: me
I'm good at ovals.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on February 12, 2016, 06:05:18 PM
The only thing I would watch with the larger size T type is their length, by the time you have  a large (long) tap in it you may start to run out of Z height on the mill.

I hardly ever use my Tee type prefering a bar type.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on February 12, 2016, 06:20:20 PM

I see the idea of a collar (or Marv's insert) that could be used in the die holder. Neat idea.
That just leaves understanding how the die is held in the collar.

Make a square hole?

I presume you meant to say how the tap is held in the collar.  With a square hole you only need something to keep it from falling out - setscrew or toothpick wedge.  The hole walls will take the torque thrust.

My homemade tap wrenches ...

http://www.homemadetools.net/forum/tap-holders-26298

use a hole to match the tap diameter to align the tap and a setscrew bearing on the tap square to resist the torque.

Jason's point is well taken.  That's why I made the large wrench shown on the right in the URL mentioned above.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 12, 2016, 06:27:01 PM
Thanks Jason. Good point.

Thanks Marv. Set screw. And thanks for the link to your taps. I remember them.

My notebook mostly has tables and notes. It's time to print images and store them as well.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on February 12, 2016, 07:53:41 PM

I see the idea of a collar (or Marv's insert) that could be used in the die holder. Neat idea.
That just leaves understanding how the die is held in the collar.

Make a square hole?

I presume you meant to say how the tap is held in the collar.  With a square hole you only need something to keep it from falling out - setscrew or toothpick wedge.  The hole walls will take the torque thrust.

My homemade tap wrenches ...

http://www.homemadetools.net/forum/tap-holders-26298

use a hole to match the tap diameter to align the tap and a setscrew bearing on the tap square to resist the torque.

Jason's point is well taken.  That's why I made the large wrench shown on the right in the URL mentioned above.

Marv - those tap holders look great - been looking to find something like that, was not sure how to design one - gonna have to make up a set! Is there something (grub screw in channel?) that keeps the free spinning post on the top end from coming out?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: sshire on February 12, 2016, 08:43:11 PM
Zee
I see guys hand guiding taps and cannot imagine doing that. Guessing that decades of practice might work. For me, the T-handle with extended guide rod to insert into a chuck or collet is the only way I've ever tapped on the lathe or mill. That way, I know it's going straight into the hole. I do find that spiral point (for through holes) and spiral flute (for blind holes) taps make the job easier and less of a butt-clenching experience. For anything 2-56 and smaller, I use form taps (Balax are my favorites) which do not create any chips. Tapping fluid (not coolant) is essential.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on February 12, 2016, 09:00:01 PM
Zee
I see guys hand guiding taps and cannot imagine doing that. Guessing that decades of practice might work. For me, the T-handle with extended guide rod to insert into a chuck or collet is the only way I've ever tapped on the lathe or mill. That way, I know it's going straight into the hole. I do find that spiral point (for through holes) and spiral flute (for blind holes) taps make the job easier and less of a butt-clenching experience. For anything 2-56 and smaller, I use form taps (Balax are my favorites) which do not create any chips. Tapping fluid (not coolant) is essential.
Hi Stan,  I've seen spiral flute taps but never tried them, thought they were for powered use or something. What is their advantage? Always used straight flute ones, what have I been missing?
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on February 12, 2016, 09:27:01 PM
Marv - those tap holders look great - been looking to find something like that, was not sure how to design one - gonna have to make up a set! Is there something (grub screw in channel?) that keeps the free spinning post on the top end from coming out?

Thanks!

No, they're not restrained.  That way, if tapping a very deep hole, the tap holder can come free of the guide rod.  You don't want the tap trying to screw into the hole while a restraint keeps it from doing so.   Not to say that a restraint of some sort would be wrong; just my way of doing it.  Treat everything I describe here as ideas awaiting your improvements.

As pointed out, the larger holder uses bushings to accommodate various size tap shanks.    If you do your own design, keep these as simple as possible so, in the heat of battle, when you need a special size, you need only run a drill through a chunk of standard-size rod to get back on track.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on February 12, 2016, 09:33:51 PM
Thanks Jason. Good point.

Thanks Marv. Set screw. And thanks for the link to your taps tap holders. I remember them.

My notebook mostly has tables and notes. It's time to print images and store them as well.

Paper is so passe.  Do what I do...

Make a bookmark folder for each forum you visit.  Bookmark good stuff and reword the bookmark title to something that will tickle your memory when you read it.   
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 12, 2016, 09:42:06 PM
Thanks Jason. Good point.

Thanks Marv. Set screw. And thanks for the link to your taps tap holders. I remember them.

My notebook mostly has tables and notes. It's time to print images and store them as well.

Paper is so passe.  Do what I do...

Make a bookmark folder for each forum you visit.  Bookmark good stuff and reword the bookmark title to something that will tickle your memory when you read it.

Computers are so untrustworthy.

I remain passe.

(Yeah I know. Computers are actually unforgiving. They do exactly what they're told to do.)

I'm still a touchy-feelie guy.
Some know this. Others need to find out.  :naughty:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Hugh Currin on February 13, 2016, 06:56:30 AM
Reading this I just came up with an idea. How about taking a tap wrench like this one (from MSC) or similar.

(http://cdn.mscdirect.com/global/images/ProductImages/0504164-24.jpg)

Then pull the handle out and press fit it into a sliding sleeve, like a tail stock die holder, similar to this (from Little Machine Shop).

(http://littlemachineshop.com/products/Images/480/480.2314.jpg)

The trick being to start with a tap wrench giving the ability to hold a range of taps. I should try that, if I can only come up with the time.


Or, one could use a spring center in the tail stock with a stock tap wrench as above. Here I'm using a spring center for tapping in the mill.

(http://www.currin.us/MEM/Webster/ValveBlock-2.jpg)

You can only see the bottom tip of it here. I'd be using this in the lathe but the spring center I have is too large to fit into my tail stock chuck (3/4" to fit a Tormach collet). I should build a smaller one of these too.

Wow, you can even buy these from Little Machine Shop in 1/2" shank, $13.50. I'll have to order one upon my next order.

(http://littlemachineshop.com/products/Images/480/480.1963.jpg)

Hope this is of interest, and maybe helpful.

Thanks.

Hugh
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on February 13, 2016, 02:02:24 PM
Those spring-loaded tap guides eat up a lot of Z axis room.  OK on larger machines but not on Sherline-sized equipment or round column mill-drills.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on February 13, 2016, 04:21:12 PM
I don't bother with a sprung guide, can't see whats wrong with one hand on the quill lever and the other turning the tap, also more rigid.

Mostly I use a bit of round bar that has a 60deg point on one end and a ctr drilled hole in the other, slip that in the drill chuck or collet whatever is being used at the time. If the tap has a ctr hole then I use the point in that, if its centreless ground the end fits the drilled hole.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Hugh Currin on February 13, 2016, 04:52:49 PM
Those spring-loaded tap guides eat up a lot of Z axis room.  OK on larger machines but not on Sherline-sized equipment or round column mill-drills.

Good point for mills. I was mainly thinking of using it on the lathe. Sorry for my unclarity.

I don't bother with a sprung guide, can't see whats wrong with one hand on the quill lever and the other turning the tap, also more rigid.

Yep. But I've converted my mill to CNC so the quill won't move on its own. Before that the quill (or tail stock) would freely follow the tap into the work once started. I did find that larger taps would slip in the drill chuck after going in a little ways.

So many options. :-)

Thanks.

Hugh
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Johnmcc69 on February 13, 2016, 08:05:41 PM
Certainly not ideal, but years ago when I worked in a tool room/machine shop, I worked with someone who made a little "Tapping Block" to start small taps. It was just a block of steel about 1" thick with different holes drilled in it to clear the O.D. of the taps. It acts as a kind of guide bushing for the tap to start. Hold the block over the work piece, start the tap straight, & let the block guide the O.D. of the tap.

 Like I said, not ideal, but easier than trying to start by just "eyeballing" it.

 John
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on February 13, 2016, 08:53:49 PM
I'm with Jason.  That's how I do it in the mill, drillpress and lathe.  With the lathe, I turn the chuck by hand and let the tap handle rest against the compound while turning the tailstock feed.   I use Starrett model 91 wrenches.

-Bob
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: sshire on February 13, 2016, 08:55:41 PM
Spiral point taps push the chip ahead of the tap. Useful for through holes.
Spiral flute taps pull the chip out of the hole behind the tap. For blind holes (although could be used for through holes as well)
Form taps, which require a smaller tap drill size, make no chips. They press (form) the thread. These threads are stronger than taps which cut the thread.
Tap breakage is generally caused by the tap not making a straight entrance into the hole or chip binding. (Or, a too small hole.)
Assuming the tap is in a holder in the mill or lathe, hence correct hole entry geometry, and there are no chips to bind, and a lubricant is used, form taps are far less likely to break.
That is my .02.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on February 14, 2016, 01:42:30 AM
Certainly not ideal, but years ago when I worked in a tool room/machine shop, I worked with someone who made a little "Tapping Block" to start small taps. It was just a block of steel about 1" thick with different holes drilled in it to clear the O.D. of the taps. It acts as a kind of guide bushing for the tap to start. Hold the block over the work piece, start the tap straight, & let the block guide the O.D. of the tap.

 Like I said, not ideal, but easier than trying to start by just "eyeballing" it.

 John

Not a thing wrong with using a tapping block; I use one at work and the home shop. All the guys in the shop also use them.  Little machine shop sells a nice US made one, and it is also the one that I have.

http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2571&category=-561984047

Dave
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on February 14, 2016, 01:51:26 AM
Those spring-loaded tap guides eat up a lot of Z axis room.  OK on larger machines but not on Sherline-sized equipment or round column mill-drills.

Good point for mills. I was mainly thinking of using it on the lathe. Sorry for my unclarity.

I don't bother with a sprung guide, can't see whats wrong with one hand on the quill lever and the other turning the tap, also more rigid.

Yep. But I've converted my mill to CNC so the quill won't move on its own. Before that the quill (or tail stock) would freely follow the tap into the work once started. I did find that larger taps would slip in the drill chuck after going in a little ways.

So many options. :-)

Thanks.

Hugh

I'm the same boat as Hugh; I used to power tap quite a bit, or as Jason does just put a center in the collet and keep pressure on the tap with the quill. After I added the quill drive to my CNC mill these things became not so easy (always trade offs). So now I either use the tapping block off line, or have the mill stop centered over the hole and use the spring loaded tap guide. 

My machine at work is capable of rigid tapping which I use often; but if if it is only a few holes I will just tap them by hand using the block.

Dave
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 14, 2016, 10:40:45 PM
Good information on taps/drivers/holders.
Thanks for popping in.

No progress on the Monitor.

I've been down with a cold (from Doc I think  ;D ) for a few days.
Just laying around doing some drawing for the next engine...once the Monitor is completed of course.

T surprised me with waffles and sausages for Valentine's day. Normally we don't celebrate such things.
We're in such a habit of the old/poor days when we couldn't afford such things.

Hm...maybe SHE wanted waffles and sausages...and my being around meant she had to share.
Nah.
Even if that were the case...she was thoughtful to make enough for both of us.  ;D
(With her homemade raspberry jam!!!)
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 16, 2016, 11:11:03 PM
A nut question...

When dealing with nuts that go onto manifolds or stems (i.e. a stem nut)...does one chamfer one side or both sides?
Is it a matter of taste or tradition?

Examples on the Monitor would include the piston and valve glands. Or the nuts used to attach the tubing.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: kvom on February 16, 2016, 11:17:27 PM
I don't bother with a sprung guide, can't see whats wrong with one hand on the quill lever and the other turning the tap, also more rigid.

That's my process on the mill with small taps.  Larger taps I use the guide.  I also use spring guide on lathe tapping.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on February 16, 2016, 11:38:04 PM
A nut question...

When dealing with nuts that go onto manifolds or stems (i.e. a stem nut)...does one chamfer one side or both sides?
Is it a matter of taste or tradition?

Examples on the Monitor would include the piston and valve glands. Or the nuts used to attach the tubing.

Thanks.
On the big engines I've looked at, they beveled the side against the plate, so the corners of the nut would not dig in. On most modern nuts they have gone to bevelling both.

No work on mine either today, been out multiple times clearing the driveway with the latest storm. Sounds like PA got hit too.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 16, 2016, 11:44:58 PM
No work on mine either today, been out multiple times clearing the driveway with the latest storm. Sounds like PA got hit too.

Thanks Chris.

We got lucky here. Couple of inches yesterday. Was hazardous ice conditions early this morning but it turned warmish (45 degrees +) and by the time I went to work it was mostly slush. All I had to do was clear the walkway to the house. We were expecting a contractor.

Felt quite balmy after this past weekend. I sorely wanted to wear my Hawaiian shirt to work.  ;D
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on February 17, 2016, 12:44:31 AM
Did someone say nuts!

I'm sure that you will get many different ideas; but my opinion based on working on and around antique engines for many years, is only one side gets a bevel. Standard practice says the bevel should be ~14 degrees; I use 20 on the model size nuts. The other end of the nut gets the hex turned until it just starts to cut a fill circle. On the model size nuts I make this feature .005 to .01 thick. Notice in the picture how the hex is above the surface of the head. The nuts and bolts on antique engines are also (high crown) which means the hex is thicker than modern hardware.

This is a good reference if you are going to create your own hardware.

http://www.americanmodeleng.com/id41.html

Not sure about steam engines but on many of the early gas engines the ends of the studs are finished with a very shallow dome.


Dave
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 17, 2016, 01:05:12 AM
Thanks Dave.
Mighty good looking nuts.

Those are holding the cylinder cover and look great! I may not do that for this engine...but there's an engine on my list where that would be the thing to do.
Thanks for the link!

Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on February 17, 2016, 01:52:48 AM
Zee, I may lie to you about a lot of things, but, Otto's nuts ain't one of them: they is top of the line, finest damn nuts I ever seen, just ask Stan. Hell, he even bragged to his wife about them, I ain't pooping you ;).

Cletus
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on February 17, 2016, 07:43:30 AM
For holding glands which are adjustable I use a full (height) nut with single chamfer followed by a lock (2/3rds height) nut with double chamfer

Union nuts for steam pipes I would have a turned section either side of teh hex much like the bottom of Dave's nuts and both chamfered.

General nuts chamfer the top only but use a washer below so the unchamfere dside does not mark the surface, dome the end of studs
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 17, 2016, 10:49:50 AM
Thanks Jason. Very helpful.

I agree Eric. And good to see ya.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 18, 2016, 11:59:42 PM
Not to sidetrack this thread further...but it ain't got no track!!!  :ROFL:

As I recuperate I've been looking at a number of Julius's drawings (fun stuff!).

One of the engines has a brass slide valve against an aluminum cylinder port.

On my horizontal mill engine, the cylinder port is also aluminum. But it has a brass plate between it and the slide valve.

In the first case I see two dissimilar metals (brass slide valve on aluminum).
In the latter case it's brass slide against brass.

I also saw an engine build using plans that had the brass slide valve against aluminum cylinder port but the builder put in a brass plate in between.

So I'm confused and would be interested in member's thoughts. (About this...some of you can keep your thoughts to yourselves.  :lolb: )

Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on February 19, 2016, 12:01:17 AM
 :pics:
Or you could bribe my with some cookies......

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on February 19, 2016, 12:13:57 AM
Zee, assuming both surfaces are very smooth and there is some lubrication in the air or steam, I doubt it makes much difference given the low running time most of our models see. If it was running 24/7, might be a different matter. With that much run time though, thinking of steam locos, it seems piston valves were more prevalent.

As to going off track...I will be nice and not comment other than to say hope you are feeling better  ;)

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on February 19, 2016, 12:21:57 AM
We'll, if you're not referring me  :stir: I confer with Bill. As long as the surfaces are smooth and parallel, in our world, anything would work. IMHO

Cletus
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 19, 2016, 01:13:34 AM
Or you could bribe my with some cookies......

Sorry Don. I never bribe with cookies. They are mine. Would crumbs do? Oh wait...never mind. I leave my plate spotless.
How about....nah. I'll get some pictures together.

Thanks Bill. I kind of thought so. Still seems some kind of plate would be appropriate. Maybe because with two sliding surfaces...if something wore then it would be easier to replace than remaking a cylinder. (Just learning.)

We'll, if you're not referring me

Never would.  :lolb:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on February 19, 2016, 01:57:35 AM
Given the very low forces on the valve plate I doubt it will be a problem. When running on steam, the inline oiler will keep it lubed. For air running, I put in a couple drops occasionally. On the metric plans he has a steel plate there, on top of the aluminum. Sealing under that plate could be interesting. Yet another gasket?
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on February 19, 2016, 02:02:20 AM
Hi Zee,
 As the guys say it probably makes little difference. Would think long term that the aluminum will wear.... But probably not in your lifetime as the guys have said.

The saying for loco's is ........." slide valves wear in"........."piston valves wear out".......make sense? Slide valves get better with time as they basically lap themselves, we're as piston valves lap the bore bigger.

Still following & enjoying

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on February 19, 2016, 02:14:29 AM
Hi Zee,
 As the guys say it probably makes little difference. Would think long term that the aluminum will wear.... But probably not in your lifetime as the guys have said.

The saying for loco's is ........." slide valves wear in"........."piston valves wear out".......make sense? Slide valves get better with time as they basically lap themselves, we're as piston valves lap the bore bigger.

Still following & enjoying

Cheers Kerrin
Yeah, both types were used on different locos, its also amazing how many varieties of valve linkages there were on locos over the years. There are some great websites with animations of a lot of them.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 21, 2016, 09:38:15 PM
Anybody remember what we were doing? Why we're here?
Was it cookies? No...that doesn't sound right. Something about an engine, no?
Oh yeah...right...The Monitor.

Steam chests...

Squared up a chunk and drilled some holes...

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/SteamChest1_zpsmvxh7n9t.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/SteamChest1_zpsmvxh7n9t.jpg.html)

I think I cut a chunk a bit long but no problem.

Then milled out the cavity. Had to pick an end mill that would reach through which meant it was a bit larger in diameter than I wanted.
So the corners aren't as small as I wanted. We'll see if it's a problem later.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/SteamChest2_zpsdxgusw3r.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/SteamChest2_zpsdxgusw3r.jpg.html)

Not much progress but happy I got a little bit of time in.

P.S. Rubber bands weren't a great idea to hold the parallels. But they're many years old.
Twice something flew by my head and at first I thought it was a piece of my machine.

Am I even averaging one photo per page?
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on February 21, 2016, 10:01:22 PM
Rubber bands weren't a great idea to hold the parallels. But they're many years old.
Twice something flew by my head and at first I thought it was a piece of my machine.

Cut some strips of various widths from foam rubber or dollar store sponges.  Pack between the parallels to keep them apart.  No problem if you drill or mill into them.

Or do what I do and stick the parallels to the vise jaws with a drop of cutting oil or a smidgen of grease.  (Damn! 'smidgen' - I've been reading too many of Cletus's posts.)

In the past, I've made giant spreader springs from those strips of stainless left over when you change windshield wiper blades.  Good re-purposing idea but I could never get them to work very well.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 21, 2016, 10:08:46 PM
I usually do the foam thing but I couldn't find my usual stuff.
You may remember...

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/IMG_4495.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/IMG_4495.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on February 21, 2016, 10:30:05 PM
Nice progress on the valve chests. If it turns out the inside corners are a problem (doubt it) you can always round the corners of the valve sliders a bit, wont effect function.

Been so long I lost track - did you get the other covers/cylinders all straightened out? Pics?
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 21, 2016, 10:39:23 PM
Been so long I lost track - did you get the other covers/cylinders all straightened out? Pics?

I drilled and tapped one cover for the gland. Still have to do the other.
Just didn't want to work on them at the moment. I felt I needed to do something different.

As for the steam chest...I'm hoping they will help me when I mill the flat on the cylinders.
I'm thinking of doing the same for the bottom flat.

I don't think being off a little in the horizontal direction will matter. The vibrating arms et.al. can be adjusted.
I don't know about the vertical position but figure there's room there too.

After doing some drawing the past week (while feeling puny), I feel I'm getting a better idea of what dimensions are critical and which are not.
We'll see.  ;D
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on February 21, 2016, 10:49:25 PM
I usually do the foam thing but I couldn't find my usual stuff.
You may remember...

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/IMG_4495.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/IMG_4495.jpg.html)

I try to not remember many of the things you do.  That was one of them.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on February 21, 2016, 10:51:32 PM
I usually do the foam thing but I couldn't find my usual stuff.
You may remember...

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/IMG_4495.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/IMG_4495.jpg.html)

I try to not remember many of the things you do.  That was one of them.

Doubt that cookie tastes very good, looks awfully chewy!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 21, 2016, 11:02:33 PM
I try to not remember many of the things you do.  That was one of them.

 ;D

Well I can't feel bad about that. There are many things I've done I try not to remember.
The sad thing is, sometimes I don't need help.

For those who don't know...

This was at a time when I was learning (still am) and the topic of holding parallels came up.
It was Halloween. I stole my kids' decoration.

In keeping with, what I believe even Marv has advised...to use what is available.

Nyah.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 21, 2016, 11:06:15 PM
Doubt that cookie tastes very good, looks awfully chewy!

What would you call it?

Ingredients...
 a) some kind of, probably Asian, foam
 b) oil of various types
 c) swarf - brass, aluminum, and steel
 d) no doubt a bit of me

I'd call it crap.
Belongs in the same group as oatmeal cookies.
Or worse...oatmeal with raisins.

That's right. You heard me.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on February 22, 2016, 12:14:00 AM
I see you have a case of "aluminitis" also. You seem to be doing well. A deep pocket is a pain in butt. You might be able to drill your four corners with a smaller radius drill and mill to it. No oatmeal eh, I guess chocolate chip Rice Krispie treats wouldn't interest you either then. Marv, I'm working on you, I'll get an "ain't " out of you yet  ;). Keep up the good work Zee.

Cletus
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 22, 2016, 12:22:29 AM
I guess chocolate chip Rice Krispie treats wouldn't interest you either then.

You would be wrong.  ;D
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on February 22, 2016, 12:24:47 AM
Well I see we finally got some piccys for a change. I been seeing so many cookies lately, it hard to make out what your working on....... :lolb:

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on February 22, 2016, 12:45:51 AM
Hmmmmmm.....two pictures of the steam chests and one (plus quotes) of some nasty old foam cookie (which doesn't count) in three pages...still I suppose that is progress though :)  Nice work on the steam chests though Zee!

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 23, 2016, 10:52:15 PM
Thanks guys. I think. Maybe not.

Hey I'm trying! I get one hour after work. Part of which is to see the fine work from other members. Part of which is to reply to the various slights, digs, insults...I mean...praise, compliments, and help.

Doesn't give me much time.

So I was real excited to get some machining in tonight.

Started drilling some holes. Then the mill quit. eh?
I didn't check the current light...but I think it was off.
Hit emergency, switched back on, nothing. Heard the fan though.

Checked the fuse (which didn't make sense to me since the fan was on).
Fuse fine.

Put it back in, tried again...and it's running again.

I can't believe it was a thermal thing...I was only on my 3rd hole.

Mini-mill that you can get at HF.
Anyone have a similar ghost?

Maybe the Halloween foam scared it.

Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on February 23, 2016, 11:30:38 PM
No pics of the holes you didn't drill   :lolb:

Worth checking the wires in the control box? Maybe something loose?
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 24, 2016, 12:07:48 AM
Yeah, it was odd.
It just sort of slowed down and stopped.
No issue since. (And yes...it wasn't unplugged or the emergency stop active...the fan was running.)

The holes...what I did was chain drill between the two steam chests.
Then used a hacksaw to separate them.
Then placed them side-by-side in the vise and used an end mill to bring to size.

No pics. I get in trouble for posting two. Or posting none. Can't win.  ;D

Next challenge is drilling/reaming for the valve rod and drilling/tapping for the valve gland.
I don't think that will happen in the vise. Not enough headroom.

Which is better? Use the 4-jaw in the lathe? Should be fun finding the spot. Or jig it up on the mill table?
I'm leaning towards the mill.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on February 24, 2016, 01:06:31 AM
That is odd about the mill ghost Zee. Hope you can track it down just to be sure what it is. Progress is still progress, pics or not. Keep after it.

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on February 24, 2016, 02:07:24 AM
Do you have a dial indicator for centering things in the 4 jaw? If so, center in both directions, then calculate the offset to put the hole closer to the one edge. Same technique is good for valve eccentrics.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on February 24, 2016, 02:36:57 AM
No pics of the holes you didn't drill   :lolb:


Chris if I said that I would get this  :cussing:   :lolb:

Zee some people just don't remember what it is like to work for a living; some of us still do that! And some of us get up in the midddle of the night to tend the fire so others can have a nice lunch (no not me) but I do still work for a living.

Dave


Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: V 45 on February 24, 2016, 03:08:22 AM
Rough crowd for you these days.  Keep at it. ....I know how things work out or not  !! Which is most of the time.  Did you figure out what happened to your mill?  Your project looks great so far  !
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: PStechPaul on February 24, 2016, 04:28:21 AM
Yeah, it was odd.
It just sort of slowed down and stopped.
...
I'm leaning towards the mill.
Be careful you don't lean too far, or the ghost might get you!  :o

Probably better than having the mill lean towards you. Better keep your eye on it - don't turn your back!  :paranoia:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 25, 2016, 11:41:00 PM
Thanks guys. No repeat on the ghost. So I continue...

I decided to use the mill to finish the steam chests. Idea being I could find center on one, use the setup as a stop, and just swap parts to do the second.
So here's the setup...

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/Steamchest3_zpsy04mpiuk.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/Steamchest3_zpsy04mpiuk.jpg.html)

Finished steam chests. Maybe. I'm a little concerned that the 2nd steam chest's valve rod hole is bigger than the other. We'll go for it for now. If it turns out to be a problem...I can remake. I suspect it will be fine under air. I have no plans to run this on steam.

I included the tap we talked about. I like the fact that it has the sliding bit. But the tommy bar appears to be captive which I'm not sure I like.It slides left/right but I couldn't get it out. I also tried taking the whole thing apart but no joy.

As for tapping. Initially I thought I hadn't drilled the hole big enough and it wouldn't tap. But as it turns out...the tap was so much sharper than the cheapies I have that it was cutting like butter. Perhaps the hole was too big...but I won't know until I make the glands and see the fit.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/Steamchest4_zpswkbra0kd.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/Steamchest4_zpswkbra0kd.jpg.html)

And since you like pictures...here's one of me when I was in Scotland a couple of years ago. (Or was it last year?)
Just to remind you that the fellow to left...although me...was long ago. Still the same boy inside though!

Tried to find one of T and me but it's not on my computer. For now this is fine. Otherwise you wouldn't even notice me.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/me_zpsqmxrhqkx.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/me_zpsqmxrhqkx.jpg.html)

Mmmm...actually I think that's in England on our way to Bath.

Haven't had much time on the forum lately. Hopefully I can catch up soon.

Crap. My hour is up.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on February 25, 2016, 11:53:37 PM
Cool Zee good to see you moving ahead on this. Courage my friend your going to get it done, I have no doubt.......... :ThumbsUp:

Don  8)

Now how about this piccy!
(http://i1247.photobucket.com/albums/gg629/don1966/Private/image_zpsf3mevlhg.jpeg)
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on February 26, 2016, 12:07:16 AM
It's easy to make a holder for that style of tap holder if you have to tap without the mill or lathe to keep the tap straight.  Here's one I fashioned long ago.  The V in the base centers the tap on shafts and the cutouts in the base allow for the application of cutting fluid. 

(http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j234/mklotz/tools/shop009.jpg) (http://s81.photobucket.com/user/mklotz/media/tools/shop009.jpg.html)

Good picture.  You look like a happy camper.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on February 26, 2016, 12:21:47 AM
Oh goodie gum drops,  machining and Zee piccys  :whoohoo:. Dude, nice setup;  great use of the angle plates to give a rigid, repeatable, and square surface to clamp to. And, the step clamps are even set correctly  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: Have a couple of extra tipsy onions on me  :cheers:

Cletus
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on February 26, 2016, 12:51:08 AM
That's a great picture there in England Zee. You haven't changed a bit in all these years :)

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 26, 2016, 01:01:49 AM
Don! You're showing what my family calls 'my buddy'. Sigh. I used to be so svelte.

Marv...you're always reminding me that once you have lathe...you can make any tooling you need. Or rather...you remind me how much a lathe has changed the world.

Have a couple of extra tipsy onions on me

In addition to what I've had already tonight? Sure! Thanks!
(Would have anyway.  ;D )

Bill...you liar. But thanks.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on February 26, 2016, 01:29:00 AM
Nice setup on the valve chest drilling. I gotta get some of those type angle blocks, looks like they come in handy. If the valve rod hole on one is slightly big, no problem if you use an o ring for the packing, that will still seal well as long as the gland will compress it slightly.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 26, 2016, 03:28:10 AM
I gotta get some of those type angle blocks, looks like they come in handy.

Yeah I'd hardly used them. But looking at what the members do for setups is helping me a lot.
Used to be I'd think I was done if I couldn't use my vise.

Great place to learn.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 26, 2016, 04:42:14 AM
I gotta get some of those type angle blocks, looks like they come in handy.

Yeah I'd hardly used them. But looking at what the members do for setups is helping me a lot.
Used to be I'd think I was done if I couldn't use my vise.

Great place to learn.

I'll second what you said Zee. I bought a pair a number of years back to use for assembling model railroad structures. Now that I'm a "Newborn Machinist" they're in my ever-growing machine tools drawer. Now I see a way I can actually use them.   :) I'm learning that a big part of being a good machinist is having lots of "arrows in one's quiver" when it comes to setup.

Jim
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 26, 2016, 11:05:05 PM
Am I looking at poo here?

Drilled and tapped the steam chests for the valve rod gland.
A tap is a tap right?

Started on the valve rod gland.
Turned it down then threaded with a die.

As a test I screwed on the steam chest. Wobbly wobbly until it was fully in and tightened.
That doesn't seem right.

I don't want to redo the steam chest.

Hm. Perhaps that screw on the die is too tight?
I'd turned down to .3125 (or thereabouts) and found the die was a bit squeeky and pretty tight.

I'll open the die and try another. Just not sure it can be enough.
It was pretty wobbly.

Are there other things to look into? Or is this somewhat normal.
5/16

But now my hour is up. And it's Friday night.

Friday night means...

1) I call the folks
2) I order pizza
3) I fix the 1st of an unknown number of stinking hoppies
4) Enjoy pizza with T along with red wine
5) Spend the rest of evening talking

Yeah. Talking.

I love Friday night.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 26, 2016, 11:08:38 PM
Hm...just realized it could be the steam chest. And probably is.

Remember how I said the tap cut like butter? Could be the hole was too big and the threads are dinky.

I hate dinky.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on February 26, 2016, 11:12:48 PM
Zee if you have the room just tap the steam chest the next size bigger. Then make the gland to fit.......
Oh we go out to eat with some friend on Friday and talk most of the night..........good company........ :ThumbsUp:

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: fcheslop on February 26, 2016, 11:16:12 PM
Don beat me to it.You did drill the right size tapping hole ??
Try a commercial bolt if you have one. You guys sure have fun
Just my two bobs worth
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on February 26, 2016, 11:20:52 PM
When I get a new die I thread a piece of nominal size brass with the die in fully open and fully tight positions.  I drop this in the pill vial where resides the corresponding tap and the threaded nut made with it.  In addition to providing sizing hints, the male threaded pieces are handy to use as gages on unknown threads.

The white plastic tops on the vials can be written on with Sharpies.  Use one color for metric and another for inferial.  I put a big purple 'LH' on the left-handed ones.  Stand the vials upright in a wooden box from the craft store and you can store an amazing amount of threading tackle in a very small space.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 26, 2016, 11:27:22 PM
Worthwhile idea Don and Frazer. Thanks.

Frazer..."drill the right size tapping hole"...well that's the question. I should have done a deeper dive on investigation. I had conflicting information.
One reference was giving one size while another reference was giving another.
The first reference was for 5/16-32 and specified 9/32. It didn't go to 5/16-40.
But I have a 5/16-40 and the 2nd reference specified an 'L' drill.

I just noticed the 1st reference specified an 'L' drill but for steel. The 9/32 was for aluminum...which is what the steam chest is.
The 2nd reference didn't make a difference between aluminum and steel.

'L' is slight bigger.

I'll try opening the die first and see if that gets me there.
Otherwise...I have to go to 3/8-40...which luckily I have.

Thanks guys. That's a big help.

My frustration level has been building.

Enjoy your eating out Don.

And the two bobs may be priceless.

Just saw your post Marv. Yes. A bit more testing would have helped.
But isn't that what I'm doing.  :Lol:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on February 26, 2016, 11:57:21 PM
The generalized formula for 60 degree threads is:

TD = MD - 0.013*DOT/P

where:

TD = tap drill size
MD = major diameter of thread
DOT = desired depth of thread expressed as a percentage
P = thread pitch expressed as TPI

TD = 0.3125 - 0.013*75/40 = 0.288

which implies an 'L' drill [damned inferial nomenclature]

We've been over this before.  You should have it in your notebook.  It's worth doing this calculation for every possibly critical thread, if even only as a check on whoever wrote the suggested size.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on February 27, 2016, 01:12:45 AM
Marv, what are the rules of thumb for the DOT percentage? I've got some tables that use different values for brass and steel, is there a set of good numbers to use for the metals we commonly use in the models? From what I've seen the harder ones use a smaller value. Have broken a few taps when using the brass value on stainless.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 27, 2016, 01:32:52 AM
Well 'L' is what I used.
That would imply the die was too tight.
But I'm not convinced.

Question: As I mentioned, one reference for 5/16-32 was 9/32. But the reference for 5/16-40 was 'L' (a slightly larger drill).

Why would a 32 thread be different from a 40 thread for the tapping drill?

In the one reference...9/32 was specified for aluminum and 'L' for steel. The 2nd reference didn't distinguish...it just said 'L'.

I'm thinking I should have used 9/32...but I don't know if that is/was the problem.

[EDIT] I would think the tables provide the information the calculation would do. As in this case...it seems too. That is, 'L'. If that's correct, and is the one I used, then what went wrong?
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on February 27, 2016, 01:43:53 AM
Zee, it sounds to me like the die was cutting on the small side. Assuming it is adjustable, screw the adjusting screw in to open the die more resulting in a slightly larger thread OD. It is common for finer threads to specify a larger tap drill at least as far as the tables I have seen/used.

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Pete49 on February 27, 2016, 02:17:40 AM
Zee you're going well both with the build and the general banter which makes for a good read and a giggle.
Marv thanks for the tip. Now to get some vials and capitalise on it.
Pete
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on February 27, 2016, 02:58:37 AM
Well 'L' is what I used.
That would imply the die was too tight.
But I'm not convinced.

Question: As I mentioned, one reference for 5/16-32 was 9/32. But the reference for 5/16-40 was 'L' (a slightly larger drill).

Why would a 32 thread be different from a 40 thread for the tapping drill?

In the one reference...9/32 was specified for aluminum and 'L' for steel. The 2nd reference didn't distinguish...it just said 'L'.

I'm thinking I should have used 9/32...but I don't know if that is/was the problem.

[EDIT] I would think the tables provide the information the calculation would do. As in this case...it seems too. That is, 'L'. If that's correct, and is the one I used, then what went wrong?
Zee use this spread sheet if you haven't already. It gives you the tapping drill size for 75% engagement for each different thread values you enter. Also in the sheet you can find the minor diameter for nuts at any thread engagement percentage you enter. Make sure you get the Rev1 sheet......http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,4655.0.html

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: philjoe5 on February 27, 2016, 03:40:10 AM
Don,
That's a good reference especially for the uncommon thread pitches like 1/4" - 40 etc.

Zee, I just picked up this thread and will need to find the time to pick it up from the start.  Ray HasBrouck had a fine example of this engine and when he was alive, exhibited it at the shows.  It was very impressive and, of course, Ray's model was beautifully done.

Good luck with your build.  Threading, internal or external, had a steep learning curve for me, like learning how to properly use boring bars.  Given enough practice, it all seems so simple now.  Keep at it

Cheers,
Phil
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: PStechPaul on February 27, 2016, 07:12:16 AM
An easy way to calculate a nominal tap drill size is simply to use MD (Major Diameter) - P (Pitch), so for 5/16-40 it would be

0.3125 - 0.025 = 0.2875

This is between 9/32" (0.2812") and "L" (0.2900")

The actual root diameter for sharp edged 60 degree threads would be MD - 2 * sin(60) * P. That would be:

0.3125 - 0.0433 = 0.2692

More information:
http://guhring.com/documents/Tech/Formulas/Tap.pdf

The actual diameter formed by a drill can vary from -0.001" to +0.006" for the tap drill size for this thread. So it's probably a good idea to drill a bit smaller and then try tapping. If excessive torque is needed, then use a slightly larger drill, or even allow the drill to remain in the hole a bit longer. However, this can also cause heating and work hardening. When I tapped 1/4"-20 blind holes in a piece of stainless steel for my wobbler motor project, I had to increase the drill size from the specified #7 (0.2010") to #5 (0.2055") and even then it was tough going. Granted, I was using cheap taps that were also probably dull, but when I went back later with a new high quality spiral flute tap, it was also quite difficult.

http://engineersedge.com/manufacturing/drill-mechanical-tolerances.htm
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 27, 2016, 01:00:11 PM
Thanks everyone for the support.

As Marv mentioned, his formula indicates an 'L' bit to be used. Which I did.
Unfortunately I don't have a 5/16-40 with which to test and see if the the problem is in the steam chest or the die used to make the gland.

Bill...same lines I'm thinking. I'll try opening the die.

Don...I took a look at your spreadsheet. Thanks for that. To be honest, I'm not sure how to use it. But in playing around with it I noticed some formatting problems. You may want to reformat the cells for numbers with whatever decimal place you want. For example, when I entered 5/16 in (I think it was cell D9) it formatted it as a date. However, it doesn't look like all the cells have this problem. (And it may be some setting I have that's changing things.)

Now I'm getting pretty worried about the tapping I did on the cylinder cover.  :paranoia:

Hope I can get to this soon. A lot of life is going to get in the way for the next couple of months.  :'(
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on February 27, 2016, 03:20:04 PM
Here are the suggested DOT percentages used in my DRILL program, which has an option to determine tap drill sizes for ordinary and forming taps.


 
Code: [Select]
MATERIAL                                          % DOT

MILD AND UNTREATED STEELS                         60-65
HIGH CARBON STEEL                                  50
HIGH SPEED STEEL                                  55
STAINLESS STEEL                                  50
FREE CUTTING STAINLESS STEEL                      60
CAST IRON                                        70-75
WROUGHT ALUMINUM                                  65
CAST ALUMINUM                                    75
WROUGHT COPPER                                    60
FREE CUTTING YELLOW BRASS            70
DRAWN BRASS                                        65
MANGANESE BRONZE                                  55
MONEL METAL                                      55-60
NICKEL SILVER (GERMAN SILVER)                     50-60

The lazy man's formula

TD = MD - 1/P

makes the approximation that

0.013*DOT = 1

or

DOT = 1/0.013 = 77 %

which isn't that bad for many materials but way too (unnecessarily) tight for tough materials.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Doc on February 27, 2016, 03:39:48 PM
I usually shoot for 60% to 70% but that also depends on material and initial  thread size.
Marv I like your little chart and it looks to be a good starting point! :ThumbsUp:
   As far as die adjustment they don't adjust much they are meant to go from one class of threads to another like a 2A to a 3A and vis-versa which is only like a thou and half or so.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on February 27, 2016, 03:47:37 PM

Question: As I mentioned, one reference for 5/16-32 was 9/32. But the reference for 5/16-40 was 'L' (a slightly larger drill).

Why would a 32 thread be different from a 40 thread for the tapping drill?

5/16 - .013*75/32 = 0.282 which is much closer to 9/32 than it is to 'L'

Take the time to do the calculations whenever you do a critical threading job.

OTOH, how critical is a gland?  You're going to stuff it full of graphited thread anyway to provide sealing so a limited amount of thread sloppiness may be tolerable.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on February 27, 2016, 03:57:05 PM
Marv, what are the rules of thumb for the DOT percentage? I've got some tables that use different values for brass and steel, is there a set of good numbers to use for the metals we commonly use in the models? From what I've seen the harder ones use a smaller value. Have broken a few taps when using the brass value on stainless.

As you can see from my reply above, percentages typically vary between 50 and 75 %.

I always use 50 % for stainless.  Even with a value that low, thread strength is not much compromised and tapping is much easier.  Besides, thread strength is seldom an issue in modelmaking.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Stuart on February 27, 2016, 03:59:11 PM
With respect Marv

A gland thread needs to be on the tight side , when adjusted with the packing they may note be tight so the threads need to be to stop them backing out in use.

When doing glands I always single point the male to ensure a good fit, with bore and thread done at one chucking


Just my thoughts on the subject

Stuart
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on February 27, 2016, 06:46:40 PM
Marv, thanks for the material table!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: fcheslop on February 27, 2016, 08:43:58 PM
Hi Carl, as already mentioned simply go the next size up if this is not an option you could go the oval gland bosses with studs as per the Duval engines or the larger Stuarts
I try to make the thread a wee bit tight after having one come apart mid lake and now prefer to make proper studded oval glands when possible
You can just see what Im on about in the pic although these are at 45 degrees due to lack of space
cheers
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 27, 2016, 08:53:03 PM
Thanks Frazer. I can't quite make it out in the picture...but I believe I know what you mean.
That may be more of an option if the cylinder covers are wrong.

In the meantime...I opened the die as much as I could. Much much better.
I can't say it has the 'tightness' that people are mentioning. But there's very little wobble.

Works well enough for me to continue. It may turn out not to be good enough...at which point I can remake.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: fcheslop on February 27, 2016, 11:18:54 PM
Best of luck with the rest of the adventure
cheers
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 27, 2016, 11:23:17 PM
Thanks Frazer. I meant to mention in the last post...I like that boat.
I think I've seen it before no?
Something like that is also on my bucket list.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: fcheslop on February 27, 2016, 11:34:08 PM
I youve seen her before and she is still waiting to be finished just cannot get fired up and its to cold here and the build list for hot air just keeps growing :Jester:
I wouldnt recommend that one I started her 5 years ago as a simple build :lolb: I built a 32ft launch quicker and easier but if you want you can have the drawings when she is finished
Thought you only got one hours play time or is T absent :Jester:
cheers
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 28, 2016, 12:46:09 AM
Thought you only got one hours play time or is T absent

 :Lol: I was wondering when someone was going to ask.

One hour max machining time. I get to sneak in quite a bit to play/read on the forum.
She's a techno-geek. So even though we're watching TV together...she's on a computer.
Which means I get to do the same.

The problem is...at some point she asks "what just happened?". Gripes me. I either have to tell her what she missed or rewind.
It's usually a rewind since I wasn't paying attention either.  ;D

As for the drawings...absolutely! I'd never build a 32footer...but I would enjoy knowing how.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: fcheslop on February 28, 2016, 10:27:19 AM
Ah I see under the thumb :lolb: just like the me :Jester:
The plans are for the model not the full size one . The one thing I learned about the joy of boats is The day you buy or finish it is as great  as the day you sell it. Although thats not really accurate as a boat is never finished :hammerbash: just ask Steamer.
cheers
Any how  :pics:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 28, 2016, 10:38:30 PM
I got pics. You asked (yelled at me for them) so no complaining of what you get.

Really didn't manage a lot today. And I wanted to do something a little less stressful.
So I worked on the plates that sit on top of the frame. The cylinders will sit on one of them.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/Tops_zps7mg9vtih.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/Tops_zps7mg9vtih.jpg.html)

Both are there. Each takes 6 bolts front and back.

Then I squared up some blanks for the front bearings. The right one is sitting on the blank that would hold it.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/SoFar_zpscobtn0tx.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/SoFar_zpscobtn0tx.jpg.html)

The thing is...those bearing blocks are kind of 'L' shaped. And the drawings have a fillet at the inside corner of the 'L'.
Not that it's necessary but I think it would look better. Just not sure how.

I'm thinking of roughing out with an end mill and then taking a ball end mill to make the fillet.
Not sure if that's right or how it would work and not get bad machining marks.
Unless I get alternatives I'll practice on the part in the waste area.

On another note... :'( It looks like my hope for a new mill and/or lathe this spring is dashed.
Wedding, T laid off, new roof, new chimney, repair from storm damage.
And now today...pool cover developed huge hole and fence is down.  :cussing:

Well, we all have our crap to deal with. No sense you having to listen to mine.  ;D

There's always a silver lining by the way.
I'll let you know when I find it.  :lolb:

(There's always family, health, fine friends, and the fun I get being a class clown and poking at you all.)


Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on February 28, 2016, 10:47:21 PM
Hi Zee, good choice to switch back to the bearing blocks, get your momentum back. Seems like taking down the bulk with square ended mill and finishing with the ball end should work fine. Some tool marks are inevitable with end mills, filing/sanding usually cleans them up fine.

Sorry to hear about the other troubles, sure you will bounce back just as nuts as ever!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: fcheslop on February 28, 2016, 10:57:16 PM
Nice pics :ThumbsUp:
Sorry about the troubles .
cheers
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on February 28, 2016, 11:12:03 PM
Nice looking parts Zee and it's about time we see it.......by the way your troubles is called life and believe me your not alone.......good luck buddy!

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on February 29, 2016, 12:44:34 AM
Sneaking in a few parts before the Downton I see  ;). I think the ball nose route is the one I'd take. Let me know what size, if you don't have one, I might have an extra or two. The problems, well, they is just superficial bumps in the road of life  :old: 

Cletus
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on February 29, 2016, 12:44:55 AM
I heard there was some pictures over here on this thread :) Just had to come and see for myself. Looks like some  nice progress Zee and the proof to show for it too :).  Sorry about the delay on the new mill but first things first I know. Will just make it that much sweeter when it happens.

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on February 29, 2016, 12:47:42 AM
And the drawings have a fillet at the inside corner of the 'L'.
Not that it's necessary but I think it would look better. Just not sure how.

I'm thinking of roughing out with an end mill and then taking a ball end mill to make the fillet.
Not sure if that's right or how it would work and not get bad machining marks.
Unless I get alternatives I'll practice on the part in the waste area.

I can't remember where I got them but I have a couple of conventional endmills with rounded 'corners'.  They leave a fillet when you cut a slot.  I've looked for them online but never found them.  Perhaps they were specially ground.  I'm fairly sure I bought them as surplus.

Something like a 'Little Hogger' with the right insert might do the job...

http://www.amazon.com/LITTLE-HOGGER-3PC-END-MILL/dp/B00J0GVVNU

Or grind a suitably-shaped bit to fit in a conventional, or homemade miniature, fly cutter.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on February 29, 2016, 01:27:27 AM
Zee the frame assembly looks great!

Its good to see that you are making progress.

Marv, the end mills are still available; they're commonly referred to as a bull end mill, and are great tool for some 3d surfacing operations.

Dave
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 29, 2016, 01:30:30 AM
Thanks all.

Well I'm glad to know that what I'm thinking to do (ball end mill) doesn't come as a "what in the world are you thinking".
I'm really looking forward to seeing how it goes. I like the fact that there's quite a bit of waste to remove allowing me to experiment.
(Not that I couldn't experiment and trash a part anyway. Something I usually do.)

Too bad about Downtown tonight. Just a look back in the past. But crap! T wants to see the Oscars.

Thanks for the commiserations on troubles. Not a biggie. Just life. In comparison to others, I'm thankful for those.

Like Cletus said...just superficial bumps. So long as one doesn't blow a rod, drop an axle...or run out of things to do!!! all is fine.
Besides..it could be worse...I might not even have at least a mini-lathe and mini-mill.
We should feel sad for the soul who wants to machine but doesn't have any machines.

Hm...she wants to see the Oscars. Sounds like I have a bit of shop time available...... :cartwheel:

Sees ya.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 29, 2016, 02:16:14 AM
A quickie test...which in this realm...is not so quickie...

Many of you remember Vernon. He sent me some ball end mills. Some of which I had a collet for.
Went for the 1/4. Seems like it works...but...not enough depth.
If I'm going to make this work I can't do it in one setup. I'd have to to do it in three.
Not sure that makes sense.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/BallEnd_zpsslzlretv.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/BallEnd_zpsslzlretv.jpg.html)

Alternatively, to consider that middle hogger that Marv posted. Not sure I'd want to purchase something that looks like a one-time use.
Plus, not sure it gives sufficient choice of radius.

Anyway...happy to give you, my 'friends', more fodder.  ;D

Wow!! I just realized...3 pics in one day! Nyah.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 29, 2016, 02:44:47 AM


Besides..it could be worse...I might not even have at least a mini-lathe and mini-mill.
We should feel sad for the soul who wants to machine but doesn't have any machines.

Sees ya.

Now that's putting things into perspective Zee!  :ThumbsUp:

I'm curious as to what lathe and mill you have?

Jim
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on February 29, 2016, 03:04:03 AM
Looks like you would have to do each side separately, tipped 90 from your test. Is that what you meant by three setups? Bit more time involved, but the result is very good.

So there IS a use for the Oscars show, getting you some shop time!!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on February 29, 2016, 03:31:45 AM
The Oscars are the Nobel peace prizes of the entertainment world.  A popularity contest for spoiled children.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: fumopuc on February 29, 2016, 04:35:29 AM
Hi Carl, nice progress.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Kim on February 29, 2016, 07:05:05 AM
Hi Zee,
Nice progress and nice pics!  :popcorn:
I'm just enjoying the party!

Sorry about the troubles, and the lack of mill money.  Maybe next year?  I'm still waiting for my new mill too.  :-\  Maybe next year we'll both get our mills!  8)

Kim
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on February 29, 2016, 07:53:53 AM
Zee take an old 2 flute cutter say 3/8" or 1/2" and grind an 1/8" radius on the two corners, just freehand is fine. This will give you a longer cutter with the same radius as the 1/4 ball nose you are using. I do that quite often as they remove metal far quicker than ball nose cutters

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Engineering/5cc/HPIM1369_zps42ohscan.jpg)
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 29, 2016, 11:36:41 AM
Thanks everyone.

Jim...I'm posting this in part for other newbies considering this hobby...

I have a 7x12 mini-lathe (model 5278). The kind you can get in a variety of colors depending on who you buy from. Decent enough entry machine particularly if you do some mods (easily found by googling). I have a mini-mill from Harbor Freight (SKU 44991). A few mods and it's also decent. I got them (on sale) for about $500 each.

At the time (7 or 8 years ago) I knew next to nothing about this fun hobby. I had great desire but wasn't sure it would 'take' so I didn't want to invest much.
What I hadn't realized was the cost of tooling...which, if not matched, exceeded the cost of the machines. For twice as much I could have gotten a larger and better machines. Less if you find used ones.

Now, having learned what I have, and particularly seeing what the members here can do with whatever equipment they have, I'm still questioning whether going larger is for me. Sherlines bit me when I was a kid and I've never gotten them out of my system. It doesn't help either to see what Bill and Chris (and many others) achieve with theirs. I can't foresee building anything big enough to warrant a 'large-ish' machine. Then there's weight, ability to move, and the fun accessories. I've only come across two issues with having small machines...larger flywheels on the lathe and 'z' height on the mill. And there's ways around that.

Kim...I still have hope for this year. Christmas?  ;D But having written what I just did above...I have some decisions to make. Still leaning towards the larger. I hope you get your mill!

Jason...I like that a lot. Thanks! I have some beat up cutters. I think I'll set those parts aside until I can modify one of the cutters.

Chris...yes. 90 degree and do each side separately. Actually may be able to do as I have it but Jason's suggestion also sounds really good.
 
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on February 29, 2016, 05:22:29 PM
Two ways of how I would do it.

1) Like how Chris said.  Do one side. Then flip the part and do the one parallel to it.  That prevents for having to adjust Z and produces two sides where the radius is matched.  Then rotate the part 90 and and adjust Z until the radius matches up with the previous two sides.  Then flip it and do the last side without touching Z.

2) By tiltiting your part you can also use your current ball mill to do all four sides.  Setup  a plate or tilt table at any angle between 1 and 45 degrees. The plate/table will need a stop of some sort to bank the part off of and a way to clampthe part to it.  Setup and do one side then just rotate the part to do each side without having to make any adjustments as long as you bank against the stop. 

If #2 doesn't make sense let me know and I can take some pictures.

-Bob
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 29, 2016, 10:31:02 PM
Thanks Bob.

Still thinking on Jason's suggestion. I suspect I'll have problems getting a good cutting edge though. I've not done much in the way of grinding.

Method '1' is my backup (or preferred method). By the way...there's just 3 faces to do; the two sides and the front. The rear is one plane top to bottom.

I've checked depth and the ball end mill will reach from those directions.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 01, 2016, 02:15:37 AM
Love those tweezers Bill.
Not going to tell T. I think they're better than what she has.  ;D
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: PStechPaul on March 01, 2016, 03:08:14 AM
Can you turn the work 45 degrees and use the ball end mill that way? Or tilt the mill head if you have that option.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 01, 2016, 03:25:12 AM
Actually, went with the ball end mill. Did the front and then the sides. Seems to have gone well.
A lot of sneaking up...which is unusual for me...I generally do a lot of sneaking away.  :lolb:

No pics! Nyah. Not yet anyway.

I want to do a little more work on it and then it'll be show-n-tell.

Feeling quite happy right now. And it's not just the stinking hoppies.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: fcheslop on March 01, 2016, 07:03:01 PM
Nice going
Pics naya ?? guess that makes me feel guilty NAhh
Wont be long before shes a runner
cheers :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 01, 2016, 10:55:12 PM
I would have done pics last night. I was hoping to get more done and have a more meaningful post.  :lolb:
Yeah right. Meaningful.

Well here's what I have...

I went ahead and tried to stick with the ball end mill. The idea of grinding a working tool as Jason suggested, while interesting, is something I just didn't think I could do at this point and be successful.

So here's the 1st round...

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/FrontBearing1_zpsfjkysodb.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/FrontBearing1_zpsfjkysodb.jpg.html)

And if it's possible to unfocus one's eyes to get this in focus...here's the 2nd round...

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/FrontBearing2_zpsccexad27.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/FrontBearing2_zpsccexad27.jpg.html)

Ending up with this...

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/FrontBearing3_zpszoslwsto.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/FrontBearing3_zpszoslwsto.jpg.html)

I'm quite pleased. It was a lot easier than I thought it would be.
However...you can see I have a small problem.
I'm thinking the gibs need work. Notice the pattern? About every 1/16inch? About every turn of the wheel?
Or am I on the wrong track?

I didn't solely use the ball end mill (obviously). I used a flat end mill to mill up to/near where I wanted the fillet. And then switch to the ball end mill.
A bit of  paper and listening for change in milling noise and I was able to creep up on my target.

Don't nobody call me the creeper!
Can't trust you people.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: fcheslop on March 01, 2016, 11:02:30 PM
I often get that finish with ball nose cutters.Always blamed my crappy mill
Operator error ?? :Lol:
cheers
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 01, 2016, 11:07:14 PM
I often get that finish with ball nose cutters.Always blamed my crappy mill
Operator error ??

At my level of experience...it's hard to tell.
But I'll go for 'crappy mill'.

Keeps me feeling good about myself.  ;D

[EDIT] But someone is going to pop in and say...'so fix the mill'. Which means it's still me.  >:(
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on March 01, 2016, 11:07:34 PM
No Zee, we wouldn't call you creeper. But then again we wouldn't call you Dave Otto either, looking at the pile up on your mill. But it's good to see the piccys buddy......... :ThumbsUp:

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 01, 2016, 11:11:18 PM
No Zee, we wouldn't call you creeper. But then again we wouldn't call you Dave Otto either, looking at the pile up on your mill. But it's good to see the piccys buddy.........

Thanks Don. I might not mind being called Dave Otto....but I don't know what he looks like.  :Lol:
Wish I had his skill in any case.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on March 01, 2016, 11:14:54 PM
Creeper, creeper, creeper  :lolb:  :LittleDevil: The devil made me do it Zee.

Bill

Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: V 45 on March 01, 2016, 11:24:36 PM
Still looking great Carl !
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on March 01, 2016, 11:39:05 PM
Those pictures make me realize that I need new glasses.🤓

-Bob
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on March 01, 2016, 11:45:41 PM
OK Chuck :lolb:, I'm with Don,  if you don't vacuum up some swarf,  we're going to lose the parts :stir:. If you are suspecting a gib issue,  try putting just a little tension on the table locking screws and see if things improve.  The filets looks fine BTW.

Cletus
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 02, 2016, 12:19:12 AM
Creeper, creeper, creeper  :lolb:  :LittleDevil: The devil made me do it Zee.

Bill...the devil. I knew it.  ;D

Thanks Dave.

Bob...me too. Just got some new reading glasses. Not good enough. I think it's time I got real glasses. At least T says so. She's unhappy with my dishwashing.

Cletus...exactly what I was thinking. I have another one of those parts to make. I'll try that first.
But I wish I'd made that gib mod that Bogs talked about.

I left the swarf there for evidence. You guys are so on me about pics.
And no...it ain't re-used swarf.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 02, 2016, 12:56:48 AM
Lucked out!
Youngest came over tonight to talk wedding with T.

Shop time!!!

Made the bearings. I'll use these when I bore the holes to hold them.

A pic!!!

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/FrontBearings_zpsbadi13lb.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/FrontBearings_zpsbadi13lb.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on March 02, 2016, 01:02:43 AM
Zee I have seen your pictures; you are a much more handsome fellow than I.

OK this is an old picture but I just wanted to prove that swarfless machining does not always happen in my shop!  :lolb: I still have this mill but the control system has completely changed.

The part turned out very nice Zee; and I'm still here following along. I would hate for you guys to be talking about me behind my back.

Dave

Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 02, 2016, 01:11:19 AM
OK this is an old picture but I just wanted to prove that swarfless machining does not always happen in my shop!

Thank you Dave! So nyah to you other fellows.

Still...even with all that swarf you're showing...it still looks clean.  :)

I would hate for you guys to be talking about me behind my back.

Uh...no one can see the PMs going around right?  :paranoia:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on March 02, 2016, 01:16:13 AM
OK this is an old picture but I just wanted to prove that swarfless machining does not always happen in my shop!

Thank you Dave! So nyah to you other fellows.

Still...even with all that swarf you're showing...it still looks clean.  :)

I would hate for you guys to be talking about me behind my back.

Uh...no one can see the PMs going around right?  :paranoia:

 :cussing:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: bruedney on March 02, 2016, 01:18:35 AM
Looking Good Carl

I would have turned the bearings after boring the pedestals though

Making notes for when I start my version.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 02, 2016, 01:34:29 AM
I would have turned the bearings after boring the pedestals though

Thanks. And yes...that's what I'd usually do too. Didn't think it mattered much here. Easy enough to trial fit as I bore. Although my concern is burrs when I bore. If it doesn't work out...pretty easy to remake the bearings.

Stop with the notes. Make your version.  ;D

Certainly don't take notes off me. Other than..."remember not to do that" "remember not to do this"  :Lol:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: bruedney on March 02, 2016, 02:06:42 AM

Stop with the notes. Make your version.  ;D

Certainly don't take notes off me. Other than..."remember not to do that" "remember not to do this"  :Lol:

I have to save up to get some stock and also have a Tool grinding rest kit from Eccentric Engineering to build sometime.

The notes are pretty much as you have described   :mischief:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 02, 2016, 10:47:35 PM
I would have turned the bearings after boring the pedestals though

Didn't think it mattered much here.

He was right and I was wrong.  :-[

Oh well. Easy enough to make another bearing.

And I'll have a use for the two I made.  :ThumbsUp:
Granddaughter likes my trinkets. Put them on a nice strap and she has a necklace.

Possibly a bigger win than this engine.  :lolb:

The problem was...I thought I could sneak up on the bore dimension for a close fit. I don't know if this is a characteristic of other boring heads but, there was no sneaking up. No way could I adjust for a thou. Soon as I loosened it...things moved several thou. Could not get back to where I was. The dial has at least 5 thou of slop in it and it was difficult to feel where it was last.

Perhaps there's a method I'm ignorant of?
[EDIT] I mean concerning this. There are many methods I'm ignorant of. I'm told this nearly every day.  :naughty:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on March 02, 2016, 11:32:10 PM
Zee, higher end boring heads would be more sensitive to fine adjustments, less backlash, etc. But not in my budget anytime soon. As with most things, accuracy and features don't come cheap.

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on March 03, 2016, 12:00:42 AM

The problem was...I thought I could sneak up on the bore dimension for a close fit. I don't know if this is a characteristic of other boring heads but, there was no sneaking up. No way could I adjust for a thou. Soon as I loosened it...things moved several thou. Could not get back to where I was. The dial has at least 5 thou of slop in it and it was difficult to feel where it was last.

Perhaps there's a method I'm ignorant of?
[EDIT] I mean concerning this. There are many methods I'm ignorant of. I'm told this nearly every day.

Now a real model engineer would quickly cobble up a yoke to fit around the boring head body with a differential screw that bears on the slide.  With a 40/36 tpi combination, one turn of the screw (sounds like a novel I read in high school) would move the slide

1/36 - 1/40 = 1/360 = 0.0028"

With six divisions on the screw head one division would move slightly less than half a thou.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on March 03, 2016, 12:14:52 AM
OK Chuck,  I have two boring heads;  an El Cheapo that came with the mill,  and a decently expensive Criterion. If I only loosen that middle set screw on both of them and then turn the adjusting screw,  both are pretty accurate.  Once again,  keep a little pressure on your moving parts  :mischief: :Jester: :lolb:

Cletus
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on March 03, 2016, 12:25:45 AM
Zee, I have had the same experience with the boring head on the sherline, seems tough to get a percise measurement from it, I use the boring bar on the lathe rather than the boring head on the mill whenever possible. For big parts where that is not possible, do like you found and bore on the mill and make the matching part to fit that opening. Sounds like a common problem on small boring heads.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on March 03, 2016, 12:44:21 AM
Chris, what zee describes is certainly an issue on the sherline borind head to me at least. But it will get the job done. Definitely not in the class with Criterion and similar ones.

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on March 03, 2016, 12:48:40 AM
I find the boring heads accurate and have ran test on them to see how mine performed before using them. I found that a dull cutter will not take .001" or .002" off until you increase the setting and then it takes off to much. It's like when it bites in it starts to cut. I have been using insert boring bars and have not had that problem. You still get your usual flex and have to take multi passes but taking off .001" I have no problem.

My two cents
Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 03, 2016, 12:50:14 AM
As with most things, accuracy and features don't come cheap.

True. Although sometimes I think a bit more money up front saves a whole lot of time and heartache later.

Now a real model engineer

I know some of them.  ;D

OK Chuck

Another mark in the book for you Eric.  ;D
Know what happens when the book gets full? I burn it.  ;D

bore on the mill and make the matching part to fit that opening

Hear that Bruedney? Just like you said. Sigh.

The sad thing is...someone will say..."you won't make that mistake again" and I'll have to point out what a liar they are.  :Lol:

Just saw your post Don while I was writing. Maybe it's my method. I think the dial is worthless. Too much slop.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on March 03, 2016, 12:57:40 AM
I give, I'll cut the "Chuck" out  :naughty:  If you have an indicator that you can place against the tip of the boring tool you can tell exactly how much you are dialing in. Takes a little longer, but, it maybe worth it in the long run.

Cletus
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on March 03, 2016, 12:59:04 AM
Zee what kind of boring head do you have?

On my smaller head, a Criterion; I never loosen it. I keep it snugged up just tight enough that I can still move it with an Allen wrench in the dial. And like any slide with a screw you need to take the back lash out of it. I never lock it down after dialing in the next cut; this may now be possible to do with your set up but I though that I would mention it. Wearing the Opti-Visor also helps when adjusting the next cut.  :old:

Dave
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 03, 2016, 01:00:26 AM
I give, I'll cut the "Chuck" out  :naughty:

That means you have what you think is a better alternative.
I await with match in hand.  ;D
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on March 03, 2016, 01:05:07 AM
Now I done told you I'll cut it out and I will, I promise  >:D. Read what Dave O just told you and that is what I was trying to say, just didn't come out that way

Cletus
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 03, 2016, 01:08:18 AM
Zee what kind of boring head do you have?

On my smaller head, a Criterion; I never loosen it. I keep it snugged up just tight enough that I can still move it with an Allen wrench in the dial. And like any slide with a screw you need to take the back lash out of it. I never lock it down after dialing in the next cut; this may now be possible to do with your set up but I though that I would mention it. Wearing the Opti-Visor also helps when adjusting the next cut.  :old:

Little Machine Shop.
Maybe there's something wrong with it or I'm not using it right. I found that I had to really tighten up the allen screw to snug it in when turning the dial. Almost, loose vs tight. Nothing in between.
As for backlash...yeah that's what I was struggling with. What I tried was to move the dial, keep pressure on it, then tighten the allen. Then next time, I'd move the dial until it was snug, loosen the allen, then (hopefully) move the dial the small amount I wanted. But it seemed that as soon as the allen loosened, poof, the dial move 5 or more thou...without any pressure from me.

Bottom line though...bore the hole and turn the part to fit. Takes all the guesswork/heartache out it seems.

Eric...well gee, if people would just let me type a word in or two.  :Lol:
And I don't doubt it's the 'chuck' you'll cut out. It's the alternatives you'll come up with I was referring to.  :Lol:

(Seriously...if you or anyone thinks I'm upset...I'm not. You'd get a PM otherwise.)

Watch your mailbox Cletus.  :lolb:

Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: philjoe5 on March 03, 2016, 07:21:56 PM
Zee,
I also have the LMS boring head.  I've used it to get accurately sized holes without any problems.  There should be 2 tensioning screws that allow you to adjust the play in the dovetail, much like a gib but I don't believe there's actually a gib in there.  I set my tension so many years ago I had to go to the shop to remind myself they were there.  I use the boring bar a lot and often get within a  0.001" using it.  If those tensioning screws don't solve the problem, I'd chuck (no pun intended :ROFL:)  it for a new one.

Cheers,
Phil
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 04, 2016, 10:57:19 AM
Thanks Phil.
I don't see two tensioning screws. There are three that press against a 'gib' which is not actually a gib (as you said). The 'gib' is part of the head and the screws 'bend' it against the dovetail. I supposed that's why I've found it very hard to tighten.

But your post has told me I'm using it wrong. All three screws are loose and I was only using one to tighten. I need to use one (the middle) to keep sufficient pressure on the dovetail so when I loosen another, the dovetail won't move unless I move the dial.

I'll try that before I 'chuck' it.  ;D
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Stuart on March 04, 2016, 11:13:55 AM
Zee

With all 3 screws slack ,slowly adjust the outer 2 to give you a stiff slide , then leave them alone, when you adjust it tighten the middle screw only to lock it , take your cut , loosen the middle screw adjust the cut tighten the middle screw , rinse and repeat

To sum up my ramble use the middle screw to lock the slide after setting the cut leave the out ones alone until you need to correct the slide motion

Hope that helps

Stuart
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Jo on March 04, 2016, 11:17:32 AM
I think we need a picture of this boring head.

Jo
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 04, 2016, 12:10:22 PM
Thanks Stuart. Will do.

Jo, I'll try and get pictures when I get home. (Family party tonight.)
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Captain Jerry on March 04, 2016, 01:37:47 PM
Zee

I'm a little late to this discussion but I have been following quietly.  My experience with a boring head was much like yours until i learned to use the two wrench simultaneusly, by that I mean the wrench in the dial and the wrench in the middle screw. I grip the screw wrench tightly in my fist and take out the back lash and hold it as I loosen the slide screw.  That lets me feel when the slide screw releases its pressure enough and then turn the dial screw by just squeezing my fist.  Adjusting the head by .001" is easy.  Getting the boring bar to cut at small increments is harder.  There will be flex in the bar so use the shortest bar possible.  The amount of flex is a function of the tool edge.  Sharp tool = less flex.   I use the "El Cheapo" brazed carbide tools that came with the head and had poor results until I learned how to sharpen them and grind a little extra relief behind the cutting edge.   

I hope that I am not just restating the obvious but Sharp is always better and Dull is the demon behind most problems.

Jerry
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: PStechPaul on March 04, 2016, 09:28:50 PM
I have a cheap Harbor Freight made-in-India boring head that I took apart, and it is crudely made:

(http://enginuitysystems.com/pix/tools/Boring_Head_0897_800p.jpg)

(http://enginuitysystems.com/pix/tools/Boring_Head_0898_800p.jpg)

(http://enginuitysystems.com/pix/Lathe_Boring_Tools_0593_800x600.png)

(http://enginuitysystems.com/pix/Lathe_Boring_0590_800x600.png)

Yes, the last image shows the boring head held by the MT2 taper in the tailstock. One of my earlier experiments with machining.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on March 04, 2016, 10:13:17 PM
Machine tooling made in India can only aspire to be trash.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 04, 2016, 10:19:29 PM
i learned to use the two wrench simultaneusly, by that I mean the wrench in the dial and the wrench in the middle screw. I grip the screw wrench tightly in my fist and take out the back lash and hold it as I loosen the slide screw.  That lets me feel when the slide screw releases its pressure enough and then turn the dial screw by just squeezing my fist.

That's exactly what I (try to) do. But when I loosen the screw...it's so loose it jumps. I think Stuart has it right about how I should go about it. That is to say, use the outer screws to keep some pressure on. Then do as you say.

Paul...not too different from LMS. As I show...

The boring head...

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/Boring_Bar_zpsgacvbzj6.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/Boring_Bar_zpsgacvbzj6.jpg.html)

Taken apart...

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/Boring_Apart_zpsbfmkviqq.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/Boring_Apart_zpsbfmkviqq.jpg.html)

And the 'gib'...

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/Boring_Gib_zpswy5rt3ai.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/Boring_Gib_zpswy5rt3ai.jpg.html)

As you can see, the 'gib' is an integral part of the body. The screws have to 'bend' it towards the dovetail.

Anyway...quite a few posts about what should turn out to be...operator error.
I'll try to update when I use it next.

Thanks everyone.

Just saw your post Marv. No markings on mine or the packaging. But I believe China.
I'm okay with China. Sometimes good...sometimes not so good. Reminds me a lot of the old days when Japanese quality was made fun of. We'll see if Chinese quality improves with time.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on March 04, 2016, 10:34:56 PM

Just saw your post Marv. No markings on mine or the packaging. But I believe China.
I'm okay with China. Sometimes good...sometimes not so good. Reminds me a lot of the old days when Japanese quality was made fun of. We'll see if Chinese quality improves with time.

What I find amazing is the quality of surgical tools coming out of Pakistan.  Hemostats with smooth box joints, regular serrations and a nice smooth finish.  Scalpel handles that actually work with standard blades and also have a nice finish.  Beautiful tweezers, etc..  If the Pakistanis can manage it, why can't the Indians do the same? 
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 04, 2016, 10:55:20 PM
What I find amazing is the quality of surgical tools coming out of Pakistan.  Hemostats with smooth box joints, regular serrations and a nice smooth finish.  Scalpel handles that actually work with standard blades and also have a nice finish.  Beautiful tweezers, etc..  If the Pakistanis can manage it, why can't the Indians do the same? 

I suppose it's all about what a country/people are focused on. India seems to be about software development and answering services.
But I say that with some trepidation as I don't really know and I don't like to characterize groups of people. Except this forum.  ;D

Well...and a few others as I watch what's going on in our country.  :(
So embarrassing.

But let's not go down that road. Not here anyway.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on March 04, 2016, 11:04:27 PM
Just not enough utility poles.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on March 05, 2016, 08:02:17 AM
Zee mine looks just like yours but with MT3 shank, like someone earlier said I keep the three gib screws quite tight all the time so its a very firm sliding fit and don't alter them between adjustments of the feed screw.

Luckily my Indian one has aspired to a bit more than trash ;) Its not what it is it's what you do with it :Lol:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 09, 2016, 07:52:42 PM
 :help:

Milling the flats on the cylinders but they are too large for my vise. That is, the center line is above the top of the vise jaws.
Using tall parallels won't work, they would just push the cylinder up and out.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/IMG_0121_zps3ha7q9bs.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/IMG_0121_zps3ha7q9bs.jpg.html)

The only thing I've come up with is to make some taller jaws for the vise.
I've made jaws for the vise before (the ones on there now are the original).

If I go that route...I'm wondering about the stress on the jaws as they tighten.
Do you think it would work? We are not talking much. Maybe an 1/8 to 1/4 taller.
I wouldn't mind making new jaws. I could use a few features to hold small or round parts or to install a stop.

In any case, I'm wondering if there's another way to do this.

Thanks.

You might notice the piston gland on the cylinder standing in the background.
I'm not real happy with the glands...but they might work. We'll see.

On another note...I noticed in another thread someone talking about sizing their images.
Here's what I do...

I use Paint.net (it's free).
Open the image.
Go to the 'Image' tab and select 'Resize'.
I use Width = 400 and Height = 300 but it depends on what the dimensions of your own image is.
This works for most of my pics but the ratio is a bit off for people shots.
Then save. Use 'save as' if you don't want to overwrite the original.

Before saving, if you want to improve lightness or contrast...

Go to the 'Adjustments' and select 'Brightness/Contrast'.
Then play with the slides.


Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on March 09, 2016, 08:05:16 PM
Can you remove the covers and clamp thru the bore straight to the table.

Cletus
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on March 09, 2016, 08:06:47 PM
The tee slots in the mill table make good Vee blocks. Lay teh cylinder in the slot and arrange some clamps to hold it down, a bar passed through the bore and clamped at each end works well


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Hit%20n%20Miss/1-3rd%20Scale%20Allman%20c1890/DSC00815_zpsntef8fzr.jpg)

Or if you have an angle plate then pass a bolt through that and the cylinder to clamp cylinder to angle plate.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Hit%20n%20Miss/1-3rd%20Galloway/IMAG1696_zps7d82a50a.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Engineering/EastonandAnderson/IMAG1159.jpg)

Zee a syou are using Photobucket you can set a default size so that all images you upload to PB are reduced to the same size, I use 640 wide.

Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on March 09, 2016, 08:08:56 PM
Yup, a proper documentation of what I was trying to say  :NotWorthy:

Cletus
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on March 09, 2016, 08:09:21 PM
Eric just beat me to it. Take the covers off and pass a round bar through the bore and lay into a slot on the mill then clamp the round bar down on each end. You may want to put some shim stock under the cylinder to protect it or Coke can material.

Don
Now Jason beat me to the post.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: fcheslop on March 09, 2016, 08:28:12 PM
To get a bit extra I sometimes simply remove the jaws :embarassed:
A tip from Bodge It And Scarper Inc
cheers
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on March 09, 2016, 08:50:50 PM
To get a bit extra I sometimes simply remove the jaws :embarassed:
A tip from Bodge It And Scarper Inc
cheers

Is that company a subsidiary of Dewey, Cheatem, And Howe?

Zee, does your vise open long enough to put the cylinder in lengthwise, so you can tighten on the ends? Even if not, making taller jaw plates wont put much stress on the jaws, for such a small height increase.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on March 09, 2016, 08:54:02 PM
Yipee, we even have pictures :) The cylinder looks good too Zee!

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 09, 2016, 09:35:42 PM
Thanks for the help everyone.

I'd thought about removing the covers and using a rod through, but that would mean milling the covers separately.
I'm hoping to do all in one setup. Milling the covers separately would present some interesting challenges.

Chris, I just checked and yes...the cylinder sits nicely lengthwise. Could work.
Just enough room left to stick some thin aluminum strips in to try and protect the covers (not that they aren't marred already  ;D )

I'll also have to stick some strips underneath. That would leave making sure the cylinder is square to the end mill.

Here's the setup then...
I haven't put any strips in yet or tightened the vise.
And remember... ;D...the bolts WILL be replaced with studs-n-nuts.

Any words of warning? I'm getting really nervous now. Each operation runs the risk of a redo and I suspect I'd end up doing both cylinders and covers again.
I successfully battled TAH the other night.  :Lol:

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/SetupCylinder_zpsbjmpv9zi.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/SetupCylinder_zpsbjmpv9zi.jpg.html)

TAH - try another hobby
The battle was won easily. No worries.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on March 09, 2016, 09:53:57 PM
When I did setups like this, I was worried about the pressure from the end mill or fly cutter turning the cylinder, so to keep an eye on that, made a felt tip line along the top of the vise jaws on the end cap so I could instantly see if it moved. Didn't, but after all the work on the parts its a worry. Take many light cuts and should be fine.

One other thing you could do on the one end is put in 2 longer bolts on the left and right ones, sticking out a bit, so they rest on the top of the vise jaw, would prevent any turning tendancy.

All disclaimers apply, unprofessional machinist in a closed room, your milage may vary....
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 09, 2016, 10:08:51 PM
Thanks Chris.

Another question for you...

Plan uses a cylinder 2.25" diameter (1.125 radius).
This particular flat is cut 1" from center. That is, I'm supposed to take off 0.125".
But my cylinder is 2.20" diameter (1.10 radius)
Do I still take 0.125 off? Or should it be 0.10?
Does it really matter?
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on March 09, 2016, 10:12:27 PM
Well, now that we know the rest of the story,  that setup should work just fine.  Those end mills don't know or care whether they are cutting left to right,  or front to back  :old:.

Cletus
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 09, 2016, 10:37:53 PM
I don't see a lot talked about this...
maybe it will help others and maybe not...

When I do a setup, I take a dry run. That is, I move the cutter around to be sure I can reach everything and don't run into things.
(There's been times I've started milling only to find the holder colliding with a clamp.)

In this case, I found I'm clear of the part in one direction of Y but not in the other.

Luckily, the center of the tool gets past the part so I'm good to go.  :ThumbsUp:

Point being, had I started without checking I could have found my cutter not being able to cut at one end.
Had that been the case, I would have tried moving the vise in Y (and checking again since it would be possible to run out of room at the other end then).
I would not have been able to rotate the vise 90 degrees.
Well maybe. If I used that rotating plate that came with the vise. Which I've never used because it takes away Z.

Oh! I indicated the top of the cylinder and was pleasantly surprised (though I shouldn't be) to see less than a tenth thou change.
Another observation...milling in Y in one direction creates more machining marks than when milling in the other direction.
I've noticed that in other operations...but this one surprised me.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on March 09, 2016, 10:46:01 PM
Thanks Chris.

Another question for you...

Plan uses a cylinder 2.25" diameter (1.125 radius).
This particular flat is cut 1" from center. That is, I'm supposed to take off 0.125".
But my cylinder is 2.20" diameter (1.10 radius)
Do I still take 0.125 off? Or should it be 0.10?
Does it really matter?

If you take off the same amount on smaller diameter, you will cut closer to inner bore, which can cause issues with leaving room for steam passages and bolts. On mine, I used the original bore size but scaled everything else, so I can't give measurement from mine for you to use. I'd suggest drawing the cross section out with your outer diameter and see what works. Taking off less will change the width of the flats  and you need it wide enough for the steam chests. This plan has a very thick cylinder wall, so there is a lot of leeway.  Draw out the cross section and see what fits, looking at steam chest width, room for steam passages and chest bolts. I suspect you will wind up somewu betwee your two numbers. Last thing you want is tyo punch through the bore when drilling stud holes!
The one I'd take the smaller amount on is the bottom flat that rests on the frame, that way you will not change the centerline hieght of the bore, so all the linkages still work as planned.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on March 09, 2016, 10:47:34 PM
Now we are getting feedback we can work with  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:. Check the gibs on the y axis and once again,  leave just a kitten's whisker of pressure on the locking screw.  If you are cranking your handles  :lolb: at the same rythm and speed,  that cutter ain't gonna know the difference,  believe me,  I ask one once upon a martini  :lolb:.

Cletus

Chris just answered teh parts question and I'm helping with teh ground work,  Gee isn't this special  :lolb:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on March 09, 2016, 10:51:16 PM
Doing the dry run is a great suggestion, especially on wider parts, I've been burned on that in the past.

Cletus, one other thing to check is backlash on the feed screw, sometimes that can let the table wiggle and cause a little chatter, though leaving the locking screw slightly on helps as you said. Also check the verticalness of the column.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on March 09, 2016, 10:58:08 PM
Exactly Chris, isn't this forum a wonderful place  :cheers:

Cletus
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on March 09, 2016, 11:00:58 PM
Can you remove some of the screws holding the end covers in place?  If so you could clamp on the covers rather than on the glands projecting from the covers.  Doing so would provide much greater protection from the cylinder twisting in the vise jaws once you begin machining.  The cylinder would sit a bit higher in the vise but at least it wouldn't have such a small footprint on the vise jaws.  Whatever the final setup, take very, very small cuts.  Patience is a virtue.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 09, 2016, 11:10:49 PM
Chris...thanks. Yep...this is the bottom flat for the frame. For the steam chest, I was going to use the steam chests to help size.
And you're right...there's a lot of metal flesh available.
I wasn't so much worried about interfering with studs (or even the bore)...it's more about lining up with the rest of the parts (piston/valve etc.)

Here's where I'm at...

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/FlatCylinder_zpshdfesi25.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/FlatCylinder_zpshdfesi25.jpg.html)

I'm going to take the frame holder off the frame and see how it fits.

Cletus...I do need to work on the gibs a bit on the mill. But I'm pretty happy with it. I've got a good habit of making sure everything is locked down before starting a cut.

Problem is...sometimes I loosen the wrong lock when I go to adjust for a cut.

Bad bad bad when it's the Z lock.  :Lol:

And hey Cletus...it's Friday again.  :Lol: :DrinkPint:

Just saw your post Chris. I hadn't thought about the feed screw. I'll remember to check that.
Vertical-ness (?) seems okay. I was really pleased to see virtually no change in Y. And so far X is giving me good results. I think the tram is good (enough).

Also just saw your post Marv. Maybe my pictures aren't very good. I'm clamping on the covers. Not the glands (wouldn't want to as that would surely ruin the threads). Oh wait. I think I see what you mean. Clamp on the main part of the cover...not on (what I've been calling) the hub. Hm...yes...could have done that I think. It's not much of a small footprint though. The hub is about .8 in diameter and I'm on more than half of it. If I clamp under it...I think I'd actually have less to clamp on.

Anyway...things seem to have gone okay.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on March 09, 2016, 11:16:16 PM
Verticalness, verticality, verticalityisityness, whatever, you get the idea! Check the tram.   :Lol:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 09, 2016, 11:21:22 PM
Verticalness, verticality, verticalityisityness, whatever, you get the idea! Check the tram.   :Lol:

You've either got some secret ingredient in those cookies...or you're not drinking milk with them.  :lolb:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on March 09, 2016, 11:25:50 PM
"where I'm at" ??  You've been around Cletus too much. 

You might not be clamping on greater surface area but you would be clamping on a wider portion of the workpiece.  That means that the torque required to twist the piece would be greater.  In that sense it's more stable. 

Here's a little story, courtesy of Churchill, that you and Cletus should enjoy...

Little Johnny was upstairs, confined to his bed by a cold.  His mother, feeling sorry for him, decided to read him a story.  But, when she entered his room, he said, "Why did you bring that book that I don't like to be read TO OUT OF UP FOR?" 
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 09, 2016, 11:33:33 PM
Hm. Yes, the frame is a bit wider than the flat I made. Shouldn't matter I guess.
But my real question is...

If the height of the cylinder bore's center changes relative to the parts that are connected to the piston rod...how much does it matter?

Without knowing more...I'll probably leave it as it. That is...0.100.

Dinner time! Which means the end of machining tonight.
Hopefully I can still pop into the forum...and bug some people.  ;D
My real hobby.

Just saw your post Marv. If you're down to commenting on my English...then I must be doing swell.  ;D
BTW...it's 'fer' in my part of the country.

Point taken on the 'wider portion of the workpiece'.

Gads...that's twice she's called out 'time for dinner'. Better get at it or there won't be dessert.  :naughty:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on March 09, 2016, 11:47:09 PM
Hey Marv,  where's the shaky pudding at dear?  :lolb:. I just adore this old chap.  BTW,  Grandpa,  what's for supper.  Y'all notice he didn't invite a single one of us  :lolb:

Cletus
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on March 10, 2016, 12:08:52 AM
Verticalness, verticality, verticalityisityness, whatever, you get the idea! Check the tram.   :Lol:

You've either got some secret ingredient in those cookies...or you're not drinking milk with them.  :lolb:
Not supposed to ferment the milk?!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 10, 2016, 12:10:49 AM
Plobano peppers, chicken, kernel corn, hot sauce, tortillas, cilantro, and shredded cheese. One of my favorites.

And no...I wouldn't invite anyone. I'd have to share.

I know that's selfish...but I'm only protecting you. It's in the genes. Think lions at a kill.

And no...I'm not protecting you. It's mine. All mine.

I'm thinking Chris has the same view with respect to his cookies.
Has to be. Otherwise, we'd have some.

Fermented milk? I'd never tired that..but first response is on the order of  :toilet_claw:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on March 10, 2016, 12:14:16 AM

If the height of the cylinder bore's center changes relative to the parts that are connected to the piston rod...how much does it matter?
Given that the conn rod will take up some vertical misalignment and the slot in the valve arm will too, then being within a tenth or so wont matter much. You can always adjust the arm hieghts half a smidge if needed.

My cookies. Mine.  Though if you guys drove all the way here to shoot the swarf, I'd share!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on March 10, 2016, 12:30:56 AM
Nice to see more progress Zee. Glad you got the holding problem worked out. Hope it all continues to go smoothly.

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on March 10, 2016, 12:42:07 AM
Hope it all continues to go smoothly.

Bill
Don't bet on it Bill we get one piccy and three pages of banter and now he's getting started on food again. I can understand if he was a coonass like me because all we think about is food, but being a yank  :lolb: I just don't get it. Oh! Did somebody say crawfish season ........eating some this week end........ :Love:

Don  8)
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on March 10, 2016, 12:57:21 AM
Mmmmmm crawfish!! Just got up from dinner and now you got me hungry again. Am going to be down in your neck of the woods around the middle of June for a business meeting. Maybe I can enjoy some then :)

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on March 10, 2016, 01:09:03 AM
Bill if you come this way, call me I can meet up with you.

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on March 10, 2016, 01:34:32 AM
I'll check the dates Don. I know there are a couple of organized dinners but hope to have one evening free. I will send you a PM.

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 10, 2016, 02:56:36 AM
but being a yank

What? Just cause I happen to live here?
You can't ever leave home. Still an Ozarks boy.  ;D
Granted...the northern part of the Ozarks.  :lolb:

But I can't say I ever ate crawfish. We called them crawdads. Used them for bait.

I hope you bantering boys get together and have a fine meal.
I'm sure it'll be with good banter.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on March 10, 2016, 03:10:38 AM
I don't see a lot talked about this...
maybe it will help others and maybe not...

When I do a setup, I take a dry run. That is, I move the cutter around to be sure I can reach everything and don't run into things.
(There's been times I've started milling only to find the holder colliding with a clamp.)


Zee,

This very thing happened to me today, so your point is well taken.  Didn't check the full Y axis movement needed on a milling step this afternoon. Crank.......crank...........crank............thud...........oops!   :face palm: No harm done, just a little time to reconfigure my set up.

I've gotten a lot out of the thought process you're going through to get set up for this milling step.

Jim
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 10, 2016, 03:25:37 AM
I've gotten a lot out of the thought process you're going through

Thanks. Most of which I've learned from the fine members here.
All would be great if I could just get rid of these hiccups and avoid those darn toe stubs.

Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on March 10, 2016, 03:35:24 AM

All would be great if I could just get rid of these hiccups and avoid those darn toe stubs.

I don't suppose that could be from the: "Plobano peppers, chicken, kernel corn, hot sauce, tortillas, cilantro, and shredded cheese. One of my favorites."  :LickLips:

Jim
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: fcheslop on March 10, 2016, 07:30:19 AM
Nah Chris, part of Clock it N Flog It motor importers
Oh pics :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 10, 2016, 11:09:56 AM
Frame width is 1.0.
Calculating the chord length gave me about 0.92. Or about .04 mismatch on either side.
According to plan the chord length would be a merest tad over 1.0.

In both cases the frames give another 0.125 mismatch to both sides.
I may split the difference. I don't think it matters anyway.
If I take too much...a shim would solve it.

Cylinder is still in the vise. I need to drill/tap the mounting holes.

Nope Jim. No hiccups from that dish. I do get them from vindaloo or a hot pepper pizza when I add red pepper flakes.  ;D I'll break a good sweat too.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on March 10, 2016, 01:43:42 PM
No wonder not many pictures, all those spices are fogging the lens...
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: kvom on March 10, 2016, 06:35:35 PM
Keeping with the perennial OT nature of this thread and Marv's preposition story, I'll provide this:

A female college freshman upon meeting her high-society dorm roommater, asked "Where are you from"?  The latter replied, "Where I'm from we don't end sentences with a preposition."

"Let me rephrase that question.  Where are you from, asshole"?
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on March 10, 2016, 06:46:12 PM
Keeping with the perennial OT nature of this thread and Marv's preposition story, I'll provide this:

A female college freshman upon meeting her high-society dorm roommater, asked "Where are you from"?  The latter replied, "Where I'm from we don't end sentences with a preposition."

"Let me rephrase that question.  Where are you from, asshole"?

Another one joins "the list".
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 10, 2016, 10:22:01 PM
Another one joins "the list".

Which one and whose list?  :thinking:

Keeping with the perennial OT nature of this thread

Thanks! I thought we were in the dirt.  ;D

No wonder not many pictures, all those spices are fogging the lens...

Not really. It's the tears. This guy... :'(...but with a smile.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on March 11, 2016, 12:06:25 AM
 I'm sure that you are at the very top of the list Carl.  Then again, you could be at the very bottom.  Depends on the list.

-Bob
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 11, 2016, 12:53:12 AM
I'm sure that you are at the very top of the list Carl.  Then again, you could be at the very bottom.  Depends on the list.

Bottom.

Best place. Easier to work up than to stay at the top.
Once at the top..where do you go?

Is that a bad/poor philosophy?
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: PStechPaul on March 11, 2016, 01:00:56 AM
"Bad grammar is something up with which I shall not put!"  :Lol: :old:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on March 11, 2016, 01:32:12 AM
I'm sure that you are at the very top of the list Carl.  Then again, you could be at the very bottom.  Depends on the list.

Bottom.

Best place. Easier to work up than to stay at the top.
Once at the top..where do you go?

Is that a bad/poor philosophy?

Sometimes when you are in the bottom 10% they tend to get rid of you. :o  We certainly wouldn't want that to happen.  :lolb:

Enjoying your progress Zee.

Dave
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: sco on March 11, 2016, 07:59:56 AM
Enjoying your progress Zee.

Dave

Progress - has there been some progress?  ;D

Simon.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Jo on March 11, 2016, 08:02:26 AM
He has made it to page 49 of this thread :lolb:

Jo
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Pete49 on March 12, 2016, 02:47:41 AM
The question Jo, is it going to reach the ton?  :atcomputer: I'm guessing 98-100 :LittleDevil: But hey I'm enjoying the banter mixed with a bit of metal work  ;D
Pete
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on March 12, 2016, 03:13:19 AM
Been 30 posts, well, 31 with this one, since a engine part picture.

Okay, does that keep me on a list?

Off for a cookie...
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on March 12, 2016, 03:38:56 AM
They're counting Zee...are you feeling the pressure  :stir:  The post count is now 32  since last engine part pic.  :Jester:

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on March 12, 2016, 03:40:17 AM
Now it's 33 since last part....... :stickpoke:

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: bruedney on March 12, 2016, 03:49:04 AM
34 and counting
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on March 12, 2016, 03:59:35 AM
Oh great, now he's going to have a cargo plane drop a ton of swarf on my house...

35
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 12, 2016, 12:42:06 PM
We have proof now. It's not just me.  :ShakeHead:

Not counting this post...since the last part, there's 8 posts from me, 27 from you lot.
And all of mine are in response to you people. (Think about that.  ;D)
Should we discuss quality of posts?  :facepalm2:

All I've managed is to drill two holes. You really want to see that? A picture of a hole? Isn't this thread hole enough?

Actually, it would be a picture of a hole within a hole. Yes Marv - a hole within a hole.
Stupid hole broke into another hole. Thought I'd broken into the cylinder bore but it turned out to be a mounting hole.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: sco on March 12, 2016, 01:00:10 PM
Zee,

Progress or not your threads are always an enjoyable read. ;)

Simon.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on March 12, 2016, 01:17:07 PM
You are ze leader of ze mob...  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on March 12, 2016, 03:04:40 PM
The post count is high because this is an interesting thread to "monitor".

-Bob
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 12, 2016, 03:55:09 PM
Thanks Simon. It means a lot that people are enjoying the banter. Feels good!
Funny Bob.
Chris...'mob' is right.

And now in an attempt to appease ze mob...

Like I'd said...just holes...

I was wondering how I was going to find center but it turned out the edge finder had enough reach.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/CylinderMeasure_zpsw2m2skmu.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/CylinderMeasure_zpsw2m2skmu.jpg.html)

Drilled and tapped the mounting holes for one of the cylinders. Also put in the holes for the frame that holds the cylinders and a hole for an oil cup.
But rats...

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/CylinderBottom_zpsaeokkhap.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/CylinderBottom_zpsaeokkhap.jpg.html)

1) You can barely see the tiny hole at the bottom of the cylinder mounting holes. That's where I broke into the holes for the cover bolts. The holes for the mounting bolts are actually way deeper than they needed to be.
2) The distance between the mounting holes on the cylinder is supposed to 1.188 but is closer to 1.22. Drat. But I can either enlarge or slightly slot one of the holes on the frame.

I'll have to pull a Cletus and say "I haven't got a clue how that happened."
But I'd be lying. Like him.  ;D

Just holes. Is ze mob happy? If not, I know a guy with some some cookies you can jump on. Also a dude who likes brass. Some teacher with a Sherline. A fellow with good nuts. A red-neck. I don't mean to leave any one out. You, and everyone else, knows who you are. Oh yeah, and a fellow who keeps coming up with 'rules' that we need to write down on index cards with crayons.

 :lolb:

But leave Jo alone.  :naughty:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on March 12, 2016, 04:21:33 PM
...
The distance between the mounting holes on the cylinder is supposed to 1.188 but is closer to 1.22.
...
Oh yeah, and a fellow who keeps coming up with 'rules' that we need to write down on index cards with crayons.

A better use of your crayons than using them to mark out hole spacings.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 12, 2016, 04:31:09 PM
...
The distance between the mounting holes on the cylinder is supposed to 1.188 but is closer to 1.22.
...
Oh yeah, and a fellow who keeps coming up with 'rules' that we need to write down on index cards with crayons.

A better use of your crayons than using them to mark out hole spacings.

 :cussing:

I guess I didn't do a good enough job of cleaning the crayon off so you wouldn't see.
I just need to remember to sharpen my crayon before use.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on March 12, 2016, 04:50:15 PM
Well since Marv has lit you up I am just going to say,"Oh boy some piccys!" :zap:
Good to see you hanging in there buddy........ :ThumbsUp:

 :wine1: Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 12, 2016, 07:09:29 PM
I have no cookies...I can only treat you with some more pics...

I used a small square to 'make sure' the new flat would be perpendicular.
I can't say the flats are 'square' with the cover bolts.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/CylinderSquare_zps6hcdolq3.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/CylinderSquare_zps6hcdolq3.jpg.html)

Flat done with the steam chest just sitting on top for show.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/CylinderFlat_zpsxzwmxsns.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/CylinderFlat_zpsxzwmxsns.jpg.html)

Knowing me...I would have done the second cylinder the same way as the first. But they're different and I was careful.
(I'm running out of crayons and Marv will never run out of 'rules'.)

I would have liked to keep the cylinder in the vise and finish the vents and bolts for the steam chest. But I wasn't sure about measuring.
I think I can do better (given my skill level) with some dykem and measuring tools.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/Family1_zpsax0ufmok.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/Family1_zpsax0ufmok.jpg.html)

Drat. Here I've complained on other threads about the lack of something (like a coin or ruler) to show scale.
I'll try to remember.

You can't go by my hand. The family thinks I have mitts.

I've still got a little bit of time left this afternoon. All the women are out doing dress fitting for youngest upcoming wedding.
Party tonight.  :cartwheel:
Too bad the meatheads are joining us.   :naughty:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on March 12, 2016, 08:01:30 PM
"All the women are out doing dress fitting for youngest upcoming wedding."

Well, there goes any hope of a new mill.

"Too bad the meatheads are joining us."

Chuckle.  You, me and Archie.  Actually, I've only got one; the other is sensible.  My daughter, seeing him doing something I would do, cried out,"Oh my god, I've married my father."  I still laugh about it.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on March 12, 2016, 09:23:47 PM
Pictures - Yum!  :stir:

Looking great, glad you remembered that the 2nd cylinder is reversed from the first, I was within seconds of making that mistake on mine.

Blame the mounting hole position on the shop gremlins, they always sneak in behind you and turn the crank one full revolution when you are not looking.

 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 12, 2016, 09:41:07 PM
Be vewy vewy quiet.

They're up there. 7 of them. Making food. Playing music. Being loud.

I've already been yanked out twice. Once to set up the music. And once to fix a car door. Huh? Wha?

First time I've needed the meatheads.  :facepalm2:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on March 12, 2016, 10:06:20 PM
Shhhh, they might hear you type, Elmer....

We'll be sure not to SHOUT anything or make much noise....  :bandrock:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on March 13, 2016, 01:07:09 AM
Some nice updates Zee, and some impressive work!  The counter can be officially reset now  :lolb:

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on March 13, 2016, 01:43:58 AM
That's quiet some impressive results there Zee. Good to see some good old fashion piccys. But you know the counter is starting to roll again........ :stickpoke:
Just getting in for eating my crawfish Mmmmm.........

 :wine1:

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on March 13, 2016, 01:59:25 AM
Zee the family shot looks great! And if I were you I would hide out in the basement as long as possible and remember to just smile and nod if asked any questions.  :lolb:

"ust holes. Is ze mob happy? If not, I know a guy with some some cookies you can jump on. Also a dude who likes brass. Some teacher with a Sherline. A fellow with good nuts. A red-neck. I don't mean to leave any one out. You, and everyone else, knows who you are. Oh yeah, and a fellow who keeps coming up with 'rules' that we need to write down on index cards with crayons."

Well at least we know how you keep track of us now: Hey! I resemble that remark!  :lolb:

Dave
 
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 13, 2016, 04:07:13 PM
 :'( :'( :'(

Busted tap.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/BustedTap_zpsvmitaesp.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/BustedTap_zpsvmitaesp.jpg.html)

It crumbled more when I tried to back it out.

I have 3 options...

1) Make it a dummy. That is, put a fake bolt on the steam chest to cover it. (Engine will only run on air.)
2) Continue on with the rest of the work on that setup, then remove the cylinder and try the alum trick. My concern is what, if any, damage to the cylinder.

3rd option really isn't one...toss the cylinder. Even if it were, I'd take it further just to learn and make my mistakes on a bad part.

Other options?

I was using a bottoming (plug?) tap. I don't have another. I suppose I could keep going with the taper (2nd) tap but that's less threads and there's less than 1/4" of depth. Should I have used the taper 1st and then the plug? It seemed to be cutting pretty easily.

Or, I may buy another (I mean two). Got some other things to order anyway.

Oh...another question. When I was drilling the holes, things were fine until I got to about 1/8 deep. Then bad rumblings from the mill. Might have been about when the drill reached the depth of where the center drill had gone.
Didn't happen on the 1st hole but it did on the others. At first I wondered about the aluminum but this isn't cast.
Bad bit?

I should get some better quality bits anyway. Maybe now's the time.

Hm...I should have checked. It's possible the tap driver got loose of the mill and put strain on. Happened once or twice before but I was lucky.
Might be another index card and crayon work.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: 10KPete on March 13, 2016, 04:10:44 PM
Do the alum thing. Just be patient about how long it will take. And it won't hurt the aluminum!! Hang in there!

Pete
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on March 13, 2016, 04:26:56 PM
Was it a quality HSS tap?
Were you using lubricant (kerosene)?
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on March 13, 2016, 04:29:19 PM
Finish the rest of the work on that setup, then Alum and if that does not shift the tap then make it a dummy.

Taper tap first, then second then plug/bottoming. Looks like you were also using the tap dry, use a tapping fluid or kerosene

Same for the drill you may have melted some aluminium on teh tip, lubricant will help stop that, back the drill out every dia depth.

How big a handle does your tap driver have, the smaller the tap the smaller you want teh handle so you don't put too much force intoi the tap, I often grip them by the round part not teh square that way if things get too tight the tap wrench slips rather than teh tap letting go. These are M2 taps and teh wrenches less that 4" long

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Engineering/Nemett%20Ocelot%20NE15OT/IMAG2763_zps1uspsqnu.jpg)
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 13, 2016, 04:57:06 PM
Thanks all.

Pete...I'll try the alum thing. It's a good opportunity. One of those things I've wanted to try...yet not.  ;D

Marv...the tap was Hertel. I don't know whether that's quality or not. I did not use lubricant when tapping.

I'm usually pretty careful tapping. Any resistance and I back off to clear chips. I'm thinking I didn't have the support into the tap driver far enough and the driver got loose. I suppose the tap could have been damaged in a prior operation.

Jason...thanks for the tip. My wrench is 4.25". It hadn't occurred to me a smaller wrench would be more helpful/sensitive.

So let's talk taps (again)...

My understanding is...
1) taper
2) plug (this is the one that's always confused me)
3) bottom (the name is very clear)

Taper is fine for through hole. No?
For blind holes, taper, then plug, then bottom.

In this case, the blind hole is something less then 1/4". It didn't seem like the taper would do anything. Maybe a thread?
The plug didn't seem much better. Maybe a couple more threads. (But I had not tried.)
I was using the bottom tap. Started easily and had no issues with the 1st 3 holes. Cut quite nicely.

So my question in this case...assuming that the taper wouldn't have done anything, would using the plug for a few threads been more helpful?

Thanks again.

Oh...lubricant. I tend to just use WD-40. Always on my bits except when doing brass.
I also peck drill but should admit I probably exceed the rule.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: sco on March 13, 2016, 05:08:28 PM
WD40 is ok as a general cutting lubricant for Ally but I think you need a high pressure type for threading - I use Rocal RTD.

There is another option to get the tap out - make a miniature hole saw out of drill rod and treppan around the tap until it's released - easier in a through hole but should still work in a blind one.  You then just plug the hole and drill and re-tap.

Don't let it get to you - breaking taps happens to the best of us!

Simon.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 13, 2016, 05:17:47 PM
Thanks Simon.
Looks like Rocal is more common in the UK.
I see a lot of people use 'tapmagic' here. Good for both aluminum and steel?

And I'm right about not using lubricant with brass?

The drill rod/treppan is an interesting idea. I'll probably leave that as a last resort though.  ;D
Do you harden the drill rod after making the hole saw?

Not down yet. The biggest hurdle would come if I have to remake the cylinders.
Who would want to go through another dozen or so of pages watching that again?  :lolb:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: sco on March 13, 2016, 05:25:36 PM
Zee,

See this page http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,3870.210.html (http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,3870.210.html) for the hollow drill / trepan trick that I used when in a similar predicament.

I machine brass dry but still use the Rocol when tapping.

Simon.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on March 13, 2016, 05:29:38 PM
Hertel is a quality tap but you need to use lubricant when tapping.  WD40 is just deodorized kerosene so it's fine for aluminum.  Using something is far more important than exactly what you use.

Haven't you yet built some small tap holders according to the design shown here...

http://www.homemadetools.net/forum/tap-holders-26298

To make things easier you can safely go to 65% depth-of-thread in aluminum.  [Probably in almost anything else on a model engine; very few model threads are stressed to the point of stripping.]

Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 13, 2016, 05:56:44 PM
Here's what I was using.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/MyTap_zpshyytbpr9.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/MyTap_zpshyytbpr9.jpg.html)

Collet in mill.
Short shaft in collet.
Tap driver on short shaft.

What I was referring to earlier about the tap driver letting go...

As the tap threads, it moves down that short shaft. If I don't give enough distance for the tap driver to move along the short shaft then it loses support and any side pressure will break the tap. It's quite possible that happened here.

The short shaft interferes with the wrench if the short shaft goes in too deep. So I may have corrected too much the away.

If there's enough height with the chuck then I use the chuck to hold the short shaft. Generally though there's not enough room and I use the collet.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on March 13, 2016, 06:23:44 PM
Hertel is a quality tap but you need to use lubricant when tapping.  WD40 is just deodorized kerosene so it's fine for aluminum.  Using something is far more important than exactly what you use.

Haven't you yet built some small tap holders according to the design shown here...

http://www.homemadetools.net/forum/tap-holders-26298

To make things easier you can safely go to 65% depth-of-thread in aluminum.  [Probably in almost anything else on a model engine; very few model threads are stressed to the point of stripping.]

So Marv, lets see if I'm understanding this right.

For example: My tap drill size chart shows using a #38 (.1015) drill for the hole for a 5-40 tap. Does that give me a 100% depth-of -thread? Some % other than 100%? Then if I wanted 65% depth-of -thread I'd use a larger drill? Would I just take the called for normal size drill (.1015 in my example here)and increase that size by some percentage? And what percentage might that be?

Also would this work in other materials like brass and steel?

Lots of questions.

Thanks, Jim

PS: I really like those tap holders
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: sshire on March 13, 2016, 06:46:54 PM
Zee
IIRC Alum only works with carbon steel taps. I've never had success with HSS taps and alum. Could be me, though.
I'm sure I've said this before but, form taps. (I've been happy with Balax)
No chips, so one less thing to worry about. Marv is right about thread percentage.
Yes, you need a lubricant when tapping anything (perhaps not with Delrin)

And, it's not a long drive to Easton,PA

http://www.crayolaexperience.com/easton/plan-your-visit/buy-tickets.aspx
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on March 13, 2016, 07:02:46 PM
Interesting observation Stan.  The one time I tried Alum it failed. (Broken HSS drill bit.)

-Bob
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 13, 2016, 07:03:14 PM
So Marv, lets see if I'm understanding this right.

For example: My tap drill size chart shows using a #38 (.1015) drill for the hole for a 5-40 tap. Does that give me a 100% depth-of -thread? Some % other than 100%? Then if I wanted 65% depth-of -thread I'd use a larger drill? Would I just take the called for normal size drill (.1015 in my example here)and increase that size by some percentage? And what percentage might that be?

Also would this work in other materials like brass and steel?

Lots of questions.

Well you're asking the right fellow.
Get ready.
Enjoy.
 ;D
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 13, 2016, 07:06:47 PM
IIRC Alum only works with carbon steel taps. I've never had success with HSS taps and alum. Could be me, though.
I'm sure I've said this before but, form taps. (I've been happy with Balax)
Yes, you need a lubricant when tapping anything (perhaps not with Delrin)

Hm. I hadn't known that about carbon steel taps. Are they good for steel and brass as well?
Do people have different taps for different metals?

I have to place an order anyway. If the price is right I may try one of those form taps. Same question though...good for brass/aluminum/steel?

Lubricant for brass surprises me. I was under the impression, given the idea not use lubricant when milling or drilling brass that tapping would be the same.
Why is it not?
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Dan Rowe on March 13, 2016, 07:15:47 PM
Zee,
I use form taps for anything smaller than 1/8". They are good for malleable metal like aluminium brass and leaded steel. They do not use the standard tap tables. The rule of thumb for a form tap is OD- 1/2 the pitch. The rule for cutting taps is OD- pitch for comparison.

I like Balax also and most of od the ones I own are that brand.

Dan
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: sshire on March 13, 2016, 07:41:46 PM
Zee
I've used the form taps for aluminum, brass and 12L14. Don't see why they won't work with CRS also.
Here's the official Balax chart

http://balax.com/sites/default/files/Thredfloer-Class-of-Fit.pdf


(http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l604/sshire/Starrett%20Crayons_1.jpg) (http://s1126.photobucket.com/user/sshire/media/Starrett%20Crayons_1.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on March 13, 2016, 08:15:27 PM
Karl (lassen wir richtig buchstaubieren),

Yes, you need to watch what you're doing and move the quill down when the tap wrench is about to escape from the guide pin.  I have a tap wrench like yours and find it way too heavy for small taps.  For those you need something with low inertia so you don't lose your tactile feel for what the tap is doing.  With my small tap holders I can always feel when I've outrun the guide pin.

Jim,


There's a program on my page, DRILL, which will compute tap drill sizes for conventional and form taps as well as other good stuff.  But, briefly,

TD = tapdrill size
MD = thread major diameter
P = thread pitch (tpi)
DOT = desired depth of thread expressed as a percentage

then

TD = MD = 0.013*DOT/P

Example: 1/4-20 thread with DOT = 55%

TD = 0.25 - 0.013*55/20 = 0.2143  which implies a #3 drill

Here are some suggested DOTs for various materials


MILD AND UNTREATED STEELS                       60-65
HIGH CARBON STEEL                                         50
HIGH SPEED STEEL                                             55
STAINLESS STEEL                                                50
FREE CUTTING STAINLESS STEEL                     60
CAST IRON                                                          70-75
WROUGHT ALUMINUM                                    65
CAST ALUMINUM                                              75
WROUGHT COPPER                                           60
FREE CUTTING YELLOW BRASS                       70
DRAWN BRASS                                                   65
MANGANESE BRONZE                                      55
MONEL METAL                                                   55-60
NICKEL SILVER (GERMAN SILVER)                   50-60


Stan,

Love it.  Trouble is, if Starrett sold crayons, they'd cost $20 apiece.  Mitutoyo crayons would cost $1 and last three times as long.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 13, 2016, 08:28:04 PM
 :lolb:

Just saw the 'preferred by Zee'.
Should include a 'recommended by Marv'.

Marv...I don't know 'buchstaubiern'. That seems to translate to 'paper jam beers'?
Swapping the 'i' and 'e' gets me 'paper dust Irish'.

Sheesh. And I'm the one who gets pegged for bantering.

P.S. My crayons are free. I steal them from the kid.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on March 13, 2016, 08:29:50 PM
Stan,

Love it.  Trouble is, if Starrett sold crayons, they'd cost $20 apiece.  Mitutoyo crayons would cost $1 and last three times as long.
I have to agree on the price Marv, but I bought a Mitutoyo caliper and had it returned for another and when I recieved the replacement it didn't work either. This was right out of the box and I tried to replace both with new batteries with no luck. All they would do is blink. So sent it back and asked for my money back.

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on March 13, 2016, 09:13:24 PM
Love the crayons - is there a chapter in the Machinists Handbook on proper colors to use for different materials, tap vs clearance drilling, that sort of thing?!   :Lol:

Goes with this plaque:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Kim on March 13, 2016, 09:27:37 PM
Marv...I don't know 'buchstaubiern'. That seems to translate to 'paper jam beers'?
Swapping the 'i' and 'e' gets me 'paper dust Irish'.

Zee,
I don't know German, but I used Google Translate and it gave me this:

"lassen wir richtig buchstaubieren" = "can we spell correctly"

Kim
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on March 13, 2016, 09:36:17 PM
Karl (lassen wir richtig buchstaubieren),

Yes, you need to watch what you're doing and move the quill down when the tap wrench is about to escape from the guide pin.  I have a tap wrench like yours and find it way too heavy for small taps.  For those you need something with low inertia so you don't lose your tactile feel for what the tap is doing.  With my small tap holders I can always feel when I've outrun the guide pin.

Jim,


There's a program on my page, DRILL, which will compute tap drill sizes for conventional and form taps as well as other good stuff.  But, briefly,

TD = tapdrill size
MD = thread major diameter
P = thread pitch (tpi)
DOT = desired depth of thread expressed as a percentage

then

TD = MD = 0.013*DOT/P

Example: 1/4-20 thread with DOT = 55%

TD = 0.25 - 0.013*55/20 = 0.2143  which implies a #3 drill

Here are some suggested DOTs for various materials


MILD AND UNTREATED STEELS                       60-65
HIGH CARBON STEEL                                         50
HIGH SPEED STEEL                                             55
STAINLESS STEEL                                                50
FREE CUTTING STAINLESS STEEL                     60
CAST IRON                                                          70-75
WROUGHT ALUMINUM                                    65
CAST ALUMINUM                                              75
WROUGHT COPPER                                           60
FREE CUTTING YELLOW BRASS                       70
DRAWN BRASS                                                   65
MANGANESE BRONZE                                      55
MONEL METAL                                                   55-60
NICKEL SILVER (GERMAN SILVER)                   50-60


Stan,

Love it.  Trouble is, if Starrett sold crayons, they'd cost $20 apiece.  Mitutoyo crayons would cost $1 and last three times as long.

Thanks Marv,

I got it printed out and headed for my notebook.

It looks like, using my 5-40 example, that I could use a #37 (0.1040) for a 65% thread depth. My chart (Sherline) showed the #38 (0.1015) that I listed in my example. Should tap a lot easier with the #37 hole!

Jim
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: fcheslop on March 13, 2016, 09:43:09 PM
A future project maybe
http://mikesworkshop.weebly.com/a-spark-erosion-apparatus.html
Make a tapping stand saves mucking about like a one handed fan dancer
Need some of those Hayes cranked bolts.Do you have a link :naughty:
Good luck
cheers
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 13, 2016, 09:49:10 PM
Nice chart Chris.
Seems like I've made one or two of those.

Kim...thanks. It was the 2nd 'u'.
buchstabieren = spell
buchstaubieren = paper jam beers

I don't know if it's a dialect thing...or 'gasp'...Marv spelled it wrong.
Or maybe he's using an 'older' German.  ;D

I had similar problems when we came back stateside from Germany. My new German teacher and I had trouble understanding each other.
I was using a Bavarian dialect.
I wish I had gotten good at it. Shame too as my mother is German, raised south of Munich and lived in Munich during the war.

In any case, your post scared me and I went running off to see where I'd misspelled something. All I could find was a missing 'to'.  :paranoia:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 13, 2016, 09:53:28 PM
Jim,
My chart shows #38 for 5-40 and #37 for 5-44 for 75% thread in aluminum.
If you use the #37, let me know how it goes.

Frazer,
I've wondered about a tap stand. Up to now I've always (or think I've always) simply swapped out the drill chuck and tapped without moving the part.
It would be faster I think to drill everything and then move to a tap stand.
My concern is finding the center of the hole again.
Is it okay to be a little off so long as the tap is straight?
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on March 13, 2016, 09:58:11 PM
Friend of mine spent a year in Germany during his high school years, and he flunked English, teacher learned in England decades before and all the dialect/regional/translation differences tripped him up. When I was in school we had an exchange student from Mexico City, he spoke English very well, but one teacher was from West Virginia, they could not understand each other's accents at all.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: fcheslop on March 13, 2016, 10:05:08 PM
Maybe not faster you just get a better feel
Never had a problem re centring using a 2nd tap then a bottoming tap
I do  often start the tap in the mill then move the job onto the little tapping stand I have. Although its to small for the current toy Im struggling with. Most of my stuff is small as in M3 is huge
Just the way I do things and we all have our own little peculiar ways . What ever works for you.
I keep looking at that wee spark eroder usually after breaking a tap :Jester:
cheers
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 13, 2016, 10:06:30 PM
I have several UK friends. If I haven't been around them for long it usually takes a little while to start understanding.
Interestingly, one person I've had the hardest time with is Don. Strong, interesting accent/dialect.
So Don, if you find me looking at you in a puzzling manner...I'm just trying to figure out what you said. (And if it's something nice or a poke at me  ;D)
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: PStechPaul on March 13, 2016, 10:07:56 PM
You might want to try a spring-loaded tap guide. I have one but I haven't used it yet. It fits in a drill chuck or collet and the plunger is reversible so it will fit a tap holder with an indented center hole using a point, or the pointed end of a tap using an indented center.
http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1963&category= (http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1963&category=)

(http://littlemachineshop.com/products/Images/480/480.1963.jpg)

You might also try clamping a weight on the quill handle so that it exerts a constant force on the tap, and so it will follow it as it goes into the tapped hole.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 13, 2016, 10:15:59 PM
So let's talk drill bits.
Drill sets are nice to start with but I find I don't use most of them and I question their quality.
I'm inclined to look for individual bits.

Different bits for different jobs. What I'm talking about is generally 1/4" or smaller, mainly for tapping (but also clearance).
I think I'm talking about 'jobber' bits.
Different coatings, material, and drill point.

Let's start with drill point. Seems to be either 118 or 135.
When would one choose one over the other?
118 seems like a good idea for blind holes.

Material...hm...HSS, cobalt, carbide.
Cobalt seems pricey for what I want to do.
What are the thoughts on HSS vs carbide?

Coating...there's several but it looks like choices are black oxide, bright, and TiN.
I notice all my end-mills are TiN.
I'm thinking TiN is harder/better than black oxide. I don't know about 'bright'.

So pile in. I'm looking to learn.
More fun than googling and still left wondering.
Here I get more direct experience in the kind of work/play we do.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on March 13, 2016, 10:24:22 PM
Production use is one thing, hobby use is another. For my money, quality (name brand be it USA, UK or wherever) is more important than the other factors, especially for the light use most of us give them. I have always used 118 degree, black oxide but from names like Hertel or Cleveland Twist Drill, etc.  Now if we were using more exotic materials it would be a different matter, but for brass, aluminum, and mild steels these have worked well for me.

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: fcheslop on March 13, 2016, 10:31:26 PM
As per Bill with the proviso Learn how to sharpen them :Jester:
Stay away from cheap chinky stuff they will only snap in that important hole and the same with taps,reamer.
I recently bought some  metric reamers of unkown origin and the bushes ended up like a backside on a pot
cheers
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on March 13, 2016, 10:52:41 PM
Most drill charts ignore DOT and size the tap drill according to the simplified formula

TD = MD - 1/P

Thus they are assuming that

0.013*DOT = 1

or

DOT = 1/0.013 = 77 %

so using the drill in the table will give you about 77 % DOT, which is a bit more than most threads need.  Tapping becomes much easier by making this percentage a bit smaller.

Since metric threads are also 60 deg threads, this formula can be used for them.  Since metric pitch is already in the form of a length/thread (as opposed to TPI = threads/length), the formula then becomes

TD = MD - 0.013*DOT*PM

where

PM = metric pitch.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: sshire on March 13, 2016, 11:00:17 PM
Zee
On Bobsmodels recommendation, I ordered an assortment of Precision Twist Drills in my most used drill sizes. Astounding. The difference between those and my original Horrible Freight set is very noticeable.
As I need to replace, I'll get the PTD.
ENCO
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on March 13, 2016, 11:16:42 PM
Cheap Harbor Freight drills have their place, too.  Last time I was in the Perfumed Palace I picked up a set of their left-hand drills for a measly $6.40 ($8 and 20% coupon).

http://www.harborfreight.com/left-hand-drill-bit-set-13-pc-61686.html

In my shop about the only use for left-hand drills is drilling out the relatively rare stuck or broken screw.  Since I regard this as drill abuse, I really don't care if I destroy a drill with each job.  Might as well destroy cheap drills.

Actually, after examining them, they're reasonably ground and look to be made of genuine steel, not Mazak. 
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on March 13, 2016, 11:40:08 PM
Jim,
My chart shows #38 for 5-40 and #37 for 5-44 for 75% thread in aluminum.
If you use the #37, let me know how it goes.

I didn't know until today that my tapping chart that came with my Sherline equipment was based on a 75% DOT.

I don't have a #37 yet. My #38 should be here tomorrow. I made the 5-40 nut for my first wobbler using a #36 that I had.  It was a little sloppy, but worked fine for the threaded pivot pin and spring. I threaded the pivot pin for my Elmer's #25 today and that worked good once I turned the first few threads off on the lathe. I'll make a proper nut tomorrow for comparison.

I'm with you about drill bit sets. I bought a screw length set 1/16" to 1/4" to get started. They seem to work pretty good, but I've only been ordering good bits in individual sizes since then. Now based on my new knowledge from today it looks like I'll be ordering more for doing 65% DOT threads.  :)

All in all a good day today!  :thinking:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on March 13, 2016, 11:58:21 PM
Just a comment on drill sets. I have a full set of fractional, letters and numbers at work though not used that much these days. Here at home I have a set of number drills (1-60) and a set of fractional up to 3/8" by 64ths. Between the two sets at home I would say I use the number drills about 90% of the time and the fractional only 10% and even then a far fewer number of those. When you think of drilling undersize for reamers and all the tap drills for hobby sized screws, the number drills are needed far more often.

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 14, 2016, 12:01:17 AM
All in all a good day today!  :thinking:

Lucky man.
I'm still recovering from last night's festivities. Whew...these youngsters know how to party.
Well...I still know how...but 'able' is another story.

Probably a factor in today's tap disaster.

Silly kids. They got in an argument of who I sounded most like. Jeff Bridges or Kevin Costner.
I don't know how many times I had to say "hey careful man, there's a beverage here".
Last week it was a couple of dental technicians. Wanted me to call their mom as Kevin and wish them a happy birthday.
(By the way...inside my own head I sound like Kermit.)

I need a zee quote. Something other than the 'crap', 'drat', 'rats', and 'fooey'.

Just saw your post Bill. I agree. The number set gets used much more often. The 1/64s some. The alpha rarely.
And thanks for your reply about drill bits. Supports what I was thinking.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on March 14, 2016, 12:52:02 AM
Better kermit than the swedish  chef or beaker!

Years ago I picked up a full cobalt set on sale, very happy with them, very sharp, durable. I too use the numbered set most, alpha least, though nearly every one has been used at one time or another.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on March 14, 2016, 01:31:59 AM
Maybe you should post an audio file Zee...some scene from Dances With Wolves or Starman and let us decide. It's poll time  :ROFL:

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Kim on March 14, 2016, 01:44:40 AM
Zee,
I'm not the most experienced person on the list, but I can tell you that there is a WORLD of difference between the Chicago Latrobe and Precision Twist drill bits and the HF stuff.

Several years ago when I realized I was hooked on this hobby, I upgraded from my $30 set of 119 HF bits (1/16-1/2 by 64ths, 1-60, and A-Z) and purchased the same sets of screw machine length bits from Little Machine Shop.  These cost $50-$70 each, and I thought they were great.  A whole class ahead of the HF bits (they were even straight! And sharp(ish)).

But then, on my current project, I was having a world of hurt drilling the little holes in 3/16" wall DOM steel tubing.  It was very slow going and I was breaking bits like they were pretzels.  It was at this point that people told me I needed to use good drill bits.

On the advice from several people on the forum I purchased some Chicago Latrobe, screw machine length, 135 degree, split point, Cobalt bits, and WOW!  What a difference!  It cut like a hot knife through butter!  I kid you not.   I did the entire rest of the holes with a single bit, in 1/10 the time it was taking me before.  I'm a believer now.

Based on my new found belief in good drill bits, I decided I would replace my bits over time.  The thing is, to buy one bit is hard.  You usually have to by 10 or 12 at one go.  So its not $2-3 each size its $20-$30 each size.  So, I decided to wait for a sale.  And I did.  Last month when Enco had their 30% off everything in sight sale, they also had their Precision Twist sets on sale.  So I got these sets for almost 50% off!  I'm ever so happy that I did.  It hurt up front, but was well worth the investment!

And I got the cobalt, screw machine length, 135 degree, split point bits, and am quite happy.

Others can give you better input. But this is my story and I'm sticking with it.

I saw the light :)
Kim

Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on March 14, 2016, 01:48:11 AM
Wow I checked in this evening and had to wade through 3 pages; Impressive!

I would recommend 135 degree split point cobalt screw machine length drills; 99% of the work you do doesn't require the length of a jobber's length drill. The split point drills are not easy to resharpen but I'm not sure that you are re-sharpening your drills anyway. Look a Kim's thread on his traction engine and see what a difference they made in his drilling. Also I would stick with a good American brand like Chicago Latrobe or Precision Twist Drill; PTD is my favorite.

There are lots of other high performance drills out there but for general purpose use I have been very happy withe these. 

Dave
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on March 14, 2016, 01:53:11 AM
Speaking of drill bits, here's something I'm wondering about:  I used Marv's formula to figure the DOT at 65% for a 4-40 tap. If my figures were right, it came out to about .0910. So a #43 @ .0890 was about .0020 (corrected) to small and a #42 @ .0935 was about .0015 (corrected) to big. However, a 2.3 mm @ .0906 was "just right". So that begs the question of whether mm bits are sometimes used to bridge the gap between numbered bits or am I tuned into my own "fairytale" here?

Jim

PS: I just came back from the future and corrected my math error that was pointed out in a later post.  :hammerbash:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: philjoe5 on March 14, 2016, 02:18:42 AM
Geez Louise Zee,
While I sat around thinking of a fix for your tapping woes you received about $1000 worth of machinist consultation.  I can't add to it except, buy the best taps, drill bits and dies that you can, use oil for everything, WD-40 or Tapmagic for ally, thread cutting oil for everything else.  I made this simple ally fixture 8 years ago, use it all the time and have broken 1 or 2 taps in all that time.  If I break one tomorrow I'll be really ticked off  :hammerbash:

(http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg261/philjoe5/machining%20pix/tap%20guide_zps9am4dheo.jpg)

Fixture in the drill chuck, constant light pressure on the quill and voila

(http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg261/philjoe5/machining%20pix/tap%20on%20mill_zpsy7l6suwd.jpg)

Cheers,
Phil
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 14, 2016, 02:24:25 AM
Audio? Not so sure. I don't do spontaneous very well. Much to my wife's complaint. I'll try in the next video. You'll have 4 choices in the poll...Jeff, Kevin, Kermit, or we'll do a "What's My Line?".

I've not bought drill bits from HF. Most of what I got was LMS. Not sure about pedigree but I figure Chinese. Then again, I suspect much of the 'good' stuff is Chinese...it's all about what quality procedures they put in.

If you can get a good deal on really good bits versus same price on regular...yeah...why wouldn't you?

But going back to it...135 degree vs 118. What makes you choose one over the other?

I remember Kim's thread. I also remember the occasion where I bought a single bit size (either 1 or a pack) and noticed the difference in drilling.

Like I said, the drill sets can be a decent start but quality suffers. Any time I bought a replacement the difference was huge. I have to think about my end-mills too. A good case where I have to question why I bought a kit of 20 end-mills and really have only needed less than a half dozen.

One zee is all one needs. I'm sure we all agree on that.  ;D
Well okay...we can argue 'needs'...but there is no replacement.

Just saw your post Phil. Don't call me Louise.  ;D And yes, the consultation here is priceless...yet free!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: 10KPete on March 14, 2016, 03:19:49 AM
Except for dedicated screw machine use I've used jobber drills forever. Until about 35 years ago when I acquired my 10K lathe and
the bed turret for it. Then I started using screw machine drills at home for the turret. And since the drill press was home size I
started using them there as well. I never bought a drill set, ever. I did buy Huot boxes and added drills as needed. Of course it
only took about 15 years to fill a few boxes, of all three types. Very early on I fell in love with 135* splits but they weren't that
common except for the screw machines. Not available in sets or on sale! So I never had a complete set of screw machine drills.
Mid last year, late last year, ?????, ENCO had some discounts that flanged up just right so I jumped on a fractional set from PTD.
Came in a Huot box and I was surprised to see the drill were made in Brazil. And they are just great!! Top quality all round. Which
I expected from PTD but I didn't know they were making them in Brazil. I jumped on the set 'cause SM drills are 90% of what I
use anymore.

Oh. Zee. I love the 135* splits 'cause they penetrate with so much less pressure than 118* non-splits. I believe they cut
straighter than 118 in either jobber or SM length. Free hand in the drill press or drill motor they don't skate around.

Did I say I like 'em??  Plain high grade HSS, black oxide finish.

So there, that's my two cents.....

Pete
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: PStechPaul on March 14, 2016, 08:02:29 AM
I am well satisfied with my 115 piece set of HF TiN coated drills that I got for about $50 maybe 12 years ago. Quality may have changed since then. If you want to see some really cheap ugly drills, here are some I bought in a set when I was just a young teen, in the early '60s. They were made in Japan, when that meant junk, and you can see that they are very roughly made and don't even have any margins, so they jam up if drilling anything harder than white pine:

(http://enginuitysystems.com/pix/tools/Drill_Bits_0947_800p.jpg)

When I checked my recollection of drill terminology, I found a pretty good reference:
http://neme-s.org/2005%20May%20Meeting/drills.pdf

Here's another bad drill:

(http://enginuitysystems.com/pix/tools/Bad_Drill_1860.jpg)

I recently bought a set of "Trinado" drills from Enco. They seem well made, and have a triangular shank which is easy to grip tightly with keyless chucks:

(http://enginuitysystems.com/pix/tools/Trinado_Drill_2546.jpg)

(http://enginuitysystems.com/pix/tools/Trinado_Drill_Set_2544.jpg)

I agree, to some extent, that buying quality tools is important, but I think there is a point of diminishing returns where twice the cost might only get you 20% better performance. It may be better to invest in a good grinder and learn how to use it, or maybe a "Drill Doctor". All drills will get dull, and there is a sense of pride and accomplishment to sharpening a drill and experiencing the improvement. Most run-of-the-mill drills, including many from HF, are perfectly fine for aluminum and mild steel and even 4140. For brass and copper, special sharpening is more critical than the drill material and quality.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on March 14, 2016, 08:05:29 AM
So that begs the question of whether mm bits are sometimes used to bridge the gap between numbered bits or am I tuned into my own "fairytale" here?

No number drills in my workshop, I have a set of fractional and then two metric sets 1.0-5.9 and 6.0-10.0 both in 0.1mm steps which do all I need. The commonly used or any blunt ones have been replaced with split point and I also have a range of screw length in the commonly used sizes.

If my figures were right, it came out to about .0910. So a #43 @ .0890 was about .020 to small and a #42 @ .0935 was about .015 to big. However, a 2.3 mm @ .0906 was "just right".

Think those differences should be 0.002" and 0.0015" so allowing for your drill being unlikely to cut spot on it makes very little difference
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Stuart on March 14, 2016, 08:13:08 AM
Love the crayons - is there a chapter in the Machinists Handbook on proper colors to use for different materials, tap vs clearance drilling, that sort of thing?!   :Lol:

Goes with this plaque:

Crueby

Infact the third screw on the top row is a real screw they are called carrot bolts and are used to fasten the cylinder block to the boiler on a traction engine   :)



About half way down The page
 http://beamishtransportonline.co.uk/2015/01/ti-news-week-1-2015/

Stuart
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: PStechPaul on March 14, 2016, 08:17:26 AM
Speaking of drill bits, here's something I'm wondering about:  I used Marv's formula to figure the DOT at 65% for a 4-40 tap. If my figures were right, it came out to about .0910. So a #43 @ .0890 was about .020 to small and a #42 @ .0935 was about .015 to big. However, a 2.3 mm @ .0906 was "just right". So that begs the question of whether mm bits are sometimes used to bridge the gap between numbered bits or am I tuned into my own "fairytale" here?

Jim
Your math is a bit off, by a factor of 10. A #43 and #42 differ by only 0.0045" and the hole size actually made by drills can vary from -0.001" to +0.003". Larger number and letter size drills have greater difference in size, but they also have a wider tolerance for hole size, and the diameter for tapping is not as critical.

If you drill slowly or allow a drill bit to spin in a hole, it will tend to open it up by a couple thousandths, due in part to expansion from heating, and perhaps more because of runout, flex, and vibration and the side cutting action of the margins on the flutes.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on March 14, 2016, 01:38:55 PM
Speaking of drill bits, here's something I'm wondering about:  I used Marv's formula to figure the DOT at 65% for a 4-40 tap. If my figures were right, it came out to about .0910. So a #43 @ .0890 was about .020 to small and a #42 @ .0935 was about .015 to big. However, a 2.3 mm @ .0906 was "just right". So that begs the question of whether mm bits are sometimes used to bridge the gap between numbered bits or am I tuned into my own "fairytale" here?

Jim
Your math is a bit off, by a factor of 10. A #43 and #42 differ by only 0.0045" and the hole size actually made by drills can vary from -0.001" to +0.003". Larger number and letter size drills have greater difference in size, but they also have a wider tolerance for hole size, and the diameter for tapping is not as critical.

If you drill slowly or allow a drill bit to spin in a hole, it will tend to open it up by a couple thousandths, due in part to expansion from heating, and perhaps more because of runout, flex, and vibration and the side cutting action of the margins on the flutes.

Thanks Jason and Paul for your responses. Both the information and pointing out my math error.  :face palm:

Jim
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: sssfox on March 14, 2016, 02:37:00 PM
Speaking of drill bits, here's something I'm wondering about:  I used Marv's formula to figure the DOT at 65% for a 4-40 tap. If my figures were right, it came out to about .0910. So a #43 @ .0890 was about .020 to small and a #42 @ .0935 was about .015 to big. However, a 2.3 mm @ .0906 was "just right". So that begs the question of whether mm bits are sometimes used to bridge the gap between numbered bits or am I tuned into my own "fairytale" here?

Jim

The true size of the drill bit is really the system you use to measure it.  It doesn't make any difference whether it was built as a metric bit or letter bit or numbered bit or whatever.  If you are measuring in inches, measure it with an inch micrometer and it is the correct size, use it.

That being said, the accuracy of the sharpening is as least as important as the diameter of the bit.  Sharpening can make a bit cut an oversized hole, but never an undersized hole.  The bits I have purchased in the last several years all seem to drill oversized holes, at least 1/4" on up.  I'm assuming that is due to poor sharpening practices.  Note to self, I really need to come up with a good drill sharpener.

Many years ago, I had a shop teacher who had a session he called "Making Do".  I don't remember much about it other than he showed us that we could sharpen a drill bit off center to drill a larger hole if we didn't have one of the correct size.

As you have found out, there are different "correct" sized bits, even for one tap, depending on what you are trying to accomplish.  I'm sure there is a tolerance that a hole should be within for a given depth of thread, but I have no idea how to determine it.  As has been said before, this isn't rocket science, but the smaller the tap, the smaller the range. 

While almost every possible size of drill bit is available, there's no way one person can own them all.  In cases like this, the smaller the difference between sizes, the less critical the choice.  In your case, the 2.3mm bit may be the best choice or the #43 bit may be the best choice.  The #42 is probably too large.

The rule I go by is use the drill bit I own that is closest to the needed diameter, period.  So the 2.3mm would be the right one, but if it is not sharpened on center, it may cut too large a hole.  The results may be so similar that it makes no difference.  I'm just getting into the small fastener arena.  I think I will proceed by drilling and tapping practice holes and once I find the correct drill for a given tap in a given material, I'll use it in the future.

Just be careful when you tap the hole.  If the hole is too small, the tap will jam and you could break it.
If that happens, before you break it, go back and drill the next larger hole.
If the hole is too large, it will probably still work, but won't hold quite as well.

Steve Fox
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on March 14, 2016, 02:46:28 PM
Jim,

By now you've learned that any time you report a calculation in a thread it's a good idea to check it on a calculator.  I'm reasonably good at mental arithmetic and I still do that, just as I check myself on a calculator in the shop where an error can have more serious effects.

Nevertheless, your original question is a good one.  When you use my DRILL program to find the drill closest to an input hole size, it reports the closest as well as the two smaller and larger than the closest along with their difference from the desired size.  For example

(2.20 mm) with size 0.0866 (-0.0044)
(2.25 mm) with size 0.0886 (-0.0024)
(43) with size 0.0890 (-0.0020)
***** (2.30 mm) with size 0.0906 (-0.0004) *****
(2.35 mm) with size 0.0925 (+0.0015)
(42) with size 0.0935 (+0.0025)
(3/32) with size 0.0938 (+0.0028)

As you can see, it includes metric size drills.  A well-equipped shop should have a set of metric drills not just for this application but for dealing with metric machinery and metric threads.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on March 14, 2016, 04:26:22 PM
Jim,

By now you've learned that any time you report a calculation in a thread it's a good idea to check it on a calculator.  I'm reasonably good at mental arithmetic and I still do that, just as I check myself on a calculator in the shop where an error can have more serious effects.

Nevertheless, your original question is a good one.  When you use my DRILL program to find the drill closest to an input hole size, it reports the closest as well as the two smaller and larger than the closest along with their difference from the desired size.  For example

(2.20 mm) with size 0.0866 (-0.0044)
(2.25 mm) with size 0.0886 (-0.0024)
(43) with size 0.0890 (-0.0020)
***** (2.30 mm) with size 0.0906 (-0.0004) *****
(2.35 mm) with size 0.0925 (+0.0015)
(42) with size 0.0935 (+0.0025)
(3/32) with size 0.0938 (+0.0028)

As you can see, it includes metric size drills.  A well-equipped shop should have a set of metric drills not just for this application but for dealing with metric machinery and metric threads.

Thanks Steve and Marv for your input.

Yes, a mini-machining forum is a tough place to post a math error (actually, in my defense, it wasn't even a math error .......... it was a typing error).

Marv, I'll spend some time bonding with your program. It looks really handy. The more I work with this stuff the clearer it becomes.

Steve, I'll also spend some time looking at my various small size drill bits to see what they actually are. I suspect that's one of those basic things that everyone knows you need to do...............well, except us newbies!

My take away from this whole drill bit/tap discussion is that, in the end, it's kind of one of those "touchy/feely" sort of things. What I mean by that, is that after the calculations are all done, it still comes down to how it feels when doing the actual tapping. As Steve pointed out........if it feels like the tap might break, back it out and come up with plan "B"!

Well, the UPS lady just dropped off my drill bit order from McMaster-Carr. I wasn't sure what brand they carried, but I checked one and it says "C-L HS USA". So I'm assuming that C-L means "Chicago-Latrobe". They look really nice.......my first Tin-coated bits.

Also, gotta get all this drill bit info printed out and in my notebook for when that "CRAST" disease rears it's ugly head!  :mischief:

Maybe I'll even get some machining done  :cartwheel: and let Carl have his thread back!

Jim

Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 14, 2016, 04:34:39 PM
and let Carl have his thread back!

It's ze mob's thread now.  :lolb:

Just want to thank everyone for all the information. Really good stuff.

What with Marv's reminder of an Enco discount, I hope I have time tonight to put an order together.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: 10KPete on March 14, 2016, 06:06:34 PM
I was taught to think not of the drill size (or reamer, etc. ) but of the hole size one desired. One then selected the weapon for creating
said hole.

Way back when, drawings would show something like " .375" Ream". One of the old guys used to grumble, quite loudly, "Don't tell
me how to make the damned hole, just tell me the size you want it!!"

Pete
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 17, 2016, 08:34:17 PM
Back from a business trip to Canada.

Had to drive via Rochester, New York.

I could have sworn I caught a whiff of mint chocolate cookie.

I must have been real close to cookie-land...and its crumbs.  ;D

Good to be home. Now I have a whole lot of catching up to do.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on March 17, 2016, 08:54:10 PM
Back from a business trip to Canada.

Had to drive via Rochester, New York.

I could have sworn I caught a whiff of mint chocolate cookie.

I must have been real close to cookie-land...and its crumbs.  ;D

Good to be home. Now I have a whole lot of catching up to do.

Should have let me know you were going by, would have handed you a bag of cookies on your way by!

If you came up to Rochester and caught the Thruway over to Buffalo/Canada, you were only a couple miles away.

Oh well, have to eat your portion for you...   :shrug:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 17, 2016, 09:51:52 PM
Should have let me know you were going by, would have handed you a bag of cookies on your way by!

If you came up to Rochester and caught the Thruway over to Buffalo/Canada, you were only a couple miles away.

Oh well, have to eat your portion for you...   :shrug:

Best be careful with the offers there my friend.
I suspect I'll be making that trip again (assuming I last long enough at my job).

In the meantime...enjoy my cookies.  :lolb:

It wasn't until I was going through that area that I realized you might be close by.
If the opportunity comes up again I'll PM you.
(I try not to let people know on the forum when I'm on a trip. I don't so much worry about bad people. It's the pranksters on this forum that are the danger. I won't name them. I'm sure I needn't have to.)

Oops. Did I end that sentence correctly?

Initials are A, B, C, ... you get the picture.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on March 18, 2016, 12:43:24 AM
Should have let me know you were going by, would have handed you a bag of cookies on your way by!

If you came up to Rochester and caught the Thruway over to Buffalo/Canada, you were only a couple miles away.

Oh well, have to eat your portion for you...   :shrug:

Best be careful with the offers there my friend.
I suspect I'll be making that trip again (assuming I last long enough at my job).

In the meantime...enjoy my cookies.  :lolb:

It wasn't until I was going through that area that I realized you might be close by.
If the opportunity comes up again I'll PM you.
(I try not to let people know on the forum when I'm on a trip. I don't so much worry about bad people. It's the pranksters on this forum that are the danger. I won't name them. I'm sure I needn't have to.)

Oops. Did I end that sentence correctly?

Initials are A, B, C, ... you get the picture.

Your cookies passed the QA test. Forgot to log the results, so had to retest with more. Yum.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 18, 2016, 09:56:40 PM
Your cookies passed the QA test. Forgot to log the results, so had to retest with more. Yum.

And I'll bet you forgot to log those results too. You're in an infinite loop.

Got my new taps and some tap magic.
Together with the fine advice from the members here...I'll never break another tap. Yay!  :cartwheel:

I've just jinxed myself, haven't I?
Where's my lucky 'knock on wood' piece of wood?
Drat. Lost it. So unlucky.

And before you fine people get onto me...you'll get pics when I get machine time.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: 10KPete on March 18, 2016, 10:16:13 PM


I've just jinxed myself, haven't I?
Where's my lucky 'knock on wood' piece of wood?
Drat. Lost it. So unlucky.



You ain't lost it friend! It's parked right thar 'tween yer ear bones!! :lolb:

Pete
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 18, 2016, 10:26:53 PM


I've just jinxed myself, haven't I?
Where's my lucky 'knock on wood' piece of wood?
Drat. Lost it. So unlucky.



You ain't lost it friend! It's parked right thar 'tween yer ear bones!! :lolb:


I'm doomed then.

Just read this thread for proof.  :lolb:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on March 18, 2016, 11:35:46 PM
Well,  whilst in the wilds of the Virginia mountains,  it appears you've had nineteen pages of post and a couple of machining pics,  damn proud,  way to go  :lolb:. Rochester,  NY, isn't that where the Dick Van Dyke show was supposed to be?  Hint on Tap Magic : pick up some syringes and use the to apply,  the crap will last forever.

Toodles,
Cletus
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: sssfox on March 18, 2016, 11:48:47 PM
Rochester,  NY, isn't that where the Dick Van Dyke show was supposed to be?

New Rochelle
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on March 18, 2016, 11:52:22 PM
Yup Steve. So there was something from that era having to do with Rochester, what was it. Don't worry, Zee doesn't mind  8)

Cletus
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: sssfox on March 18, 2016, 11:55:35 PM
Rochester was Jack Benny's sidekick.
Is that it?
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on March 19, 2016, 12:00:03 AM
Gee Mr. Benny, maybe so  8)

Cletus
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 19, 2016, 12:17:37 AM
Sheesh.

Must be me. I attract all (the wrong) kinds.

Yeah. New Rochelle, suburb of New York City.
And yeah, Rochester, Benny's sidekick.

Dick Van Dyke show...probably the best (and cleanest) sitcom of all time.
Although the Mary Tyler Show and Gilligan's Island are right up there.

As for the nineteen pages and a few pics...I now and forever disavow any responsibility.
We're all in this together.  ;D
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on March 19, 2016, 12:20:45 AM
Sheesh.

Must be me. I attract all (the wrong) kinds.

Yeah. New Rochelle, suburb of New York City.
And yeah, Rochester, Benny's sidekick.

Dick Van Dyke show...probably the best (and cleanest) sitcom of all time.
Although the Mary Tyler Show and Gilligan's Island are right up there.

As for the nineteen pages and a few pics...I now and forever disavow any responsibility.
We're all in this together.  ;D
Why does this thread remind me of Gilligan's island??!
And we are all trapped there....
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on March 19, 2016, 12:21:13 AM
And don't forget Andy Griffin show........ So where are the piccys huh?  :stickpoke:

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 19, 2016, 12:35:07 AM
Andy Griffith! Another good one. Along with Leave It To Beaver.
As unrealistic as some of those were. I mean really, wear a suit in the house? Separate beds?  :lolb:
Ah there was a bunch of good ones.

piccy's Don? Didn't you get the notice?  :lolb:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: sssfox on March 19, 2016, 12:36:39 AM


Dick Van Dyke show...probably the best (and cleanest) sitcom of all time.


As an aside, that was the first time a woman ever wore slacks on a TV show.
Mary Tyler Moore had it put into her contract that she could.

Jack Benny pronounced it ROD chester.  Never could figure out why, but it's probably the reason I remember the name.  Maybe that's the reason?
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on March 19, 2016, 01:01:52 AM
You mean you guys aren't still watching Andy Griffith show reruns...they never get old. ;D

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: sssfox on March 19, 2016, 01:20:22 AM
I do when I'm in North Carolina, but it doesn't fit into my schedule when I'm in Tampa.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: PStechPaul on March 19, 2016, 04:38:01 AM
Rochester is known for it's cloak - daggers, not so much:

http://news.yahoo.com/york-scientists-unveil-invisibility-cloak-rival-harry-potters-014359862.html (http://news.yahoo.com/york-scientists-unveil-invisibility-cloak-rival-harry-potters-014359862.html)

http://www.rochester.edu/newscenter/watch-rochester-cloak-uses-ordinary-lenses-to-hide-objects-across-continuous-range-of-angles-70592/ (http://www.rochester.edu/newscenter/watch-rochester-cloak-uses-ordinary-lenses-to-hide-objects-across-continuous-range-of-angles-70592/)

(http://www.rochester.edu/newscenter/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/fea-cloaking.jpg)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtKBzwKfP8E

You can buy one for less than $50, and half that sometimes on sale:
http://www.surplusshed.com/pages/item/l14575.html

(http://www.surplusshed.com/images/items/L14575_3.jpg)
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on March 19, 2016, 01:23:15 PM
Some daggers, back for WW II, Kodak made bomb fuses, Bausch and Lomb did bomb sight parts. Since then, mainly supplied material for the Dilbert cartoons!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 19, 2016, 09:15:01 PM
We return now to regular programming...but I'm thinking I'm still on the wrong channel.

Got some more time to make more holes...

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/CylinderVents1_zpswjraljlp.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/CylinderVents1_zpswjraljlp.jpg.html)

As someone suggested, a syringe for the Tap Magic. I need to work out a better nozzle.

I have a box full of those syringes from some years back when I had to run around with a tube stitched into the middle of chest.
Everyday I had to squirt saline in it until they figured out what to do. 9 months later, they just pulled it out. (Actually, they tried to inflate with a balloon. It didn't take as I discovered some years later. Think the movie Alien if you want an idea of the pain.)

Tube went into the left lobe of my liver where I had a bile duct stricture. Every once in a while something gave and I woke up covered in bile.
(Insert your jokes here.  ;D )
Stricture was from a football injury some 20 years before. Took a good hit that caused my sternum to poke my liver and I dislocated a number of ribs.

TMI?  :lolb: Oops, I apparently changed channels. Let's see..

And because of all the yelling complaints comments about the lack of pictures. Here's another. Steam chest trial fitted.
 :pinkelephant: Yay, the holes are in the right place.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/CylinderVents2_zps9e3ewvca.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/CylinderVents2_zps9e3ewvca.jpg.html)

Still have the side passages to do and the milling for the piping. Then I'll try the alum thing to get rid of that one broken tap.
Still a lot of opportunity to ruin this and start over.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: sco on March 19, 2016, 09:30:37 PM
Positive mental attitude Zee, looking good so far though!

Simon.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on March 19, 2016, 10:43:41 PM
This is what I'm using Carl: http://www.a2zcorp.us/Needle-Cap-wred-scabbard-20-ga_p_59.html             
                                         http://www.a2zcorp.us/Bottle-Only-for-Needle-cap-14-oz_p_61.html

But then everything is smaller in "Sherline land"!   :Lol:

Jim
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on March 19, 2016, 10:44:10 PM
"Yay, the holes are in the right place."

Or as Gomer would say...."Shazammmmm!!"

Looking great to me Zee. Just think how challenging this project is and you are meeting that challenge.

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 19, 2016, 10:51:41 PM
Thanks Simon.

Jim, I actually have needles for every syringe as well. Probably would save on waste if I used them. Got no other use for them now anyway.  ;D

Bill...I have to be honest. I don't think the threading for the piston glands is very good. Might be good enough for air so I'm waiting until then to decide if a cylinder(s) redo is needed. I'm also concerned about the cylinder bores but again...might be good enough for 90 psi of air.  ;D

The challenge...yes...so far the biggest challenges have been in setups and figuring out how to work in the space limitations I have. So far, I feel 'lucky' and wondering when I find an 'oh crap'. That feeling is going away as I progress.

The other challenge is keeping on thread...but I've given up on that.  :lolb:
Never really tried anyway.  ;D Half the fun here is interacting with everyone.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on March 19, 2016, 11:08:09 PM
Nice progress! Always a relief when the holes line up.

For the threads on the glands, if you are worried just about pressure leaks and not strength, then some thread sealant will do the trick. I used to use teflon plumbers tape, but from the steam train guys learned to use the loctite pst592 sealant, thick liquid that seals threads without glueing them in place. Good up to 400f, great with air or steam. Its easily removable, unlike loctite red/blue.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on March 19, 2016, 11:10:32 PM
Golleeeeee.... and hot diggy dog Uncle Jed we done got us some piccys...... :lolb:
Mighty fine Zee and I should hope that your courage is going up with this challenge, seeing as you've make considerable progress.  8)

Don  :wine1:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on March 19, 2016, 11:13:12 PM
Oh, and thanks for the Alien movie reference, that one scared the crap out of me. Friend (?) Of mine suggested seeing it, I thought it was just another scifi movie, was not expecting the horror side! Guy near us with huge bucket of popcorn left after the monster ate his way out of the guys chest. Kept waiting for the monster to come out of the cat at the end.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 20, 2016, 12:14:27 AM
Oh, and thanks for the Alien movie reference, that one scared the crap out of me. Friend (?) Of mine suggested seeing it, I thought it was just another scifi movie, was not expecting the horror side! Guy near us with huge bucket of popcorn left after the monster ate his way out of the guys chest. Kept waiting for the monster to come out of the cat at the end.

I first saw it at a theater. When that happened, there was a distinct smell that several people 'lost it'.  :lolb:
Had to be embarrassing for them...but very understandable. I was young and kept control...nowadays...just bump me and I may embarrass myself.
Sometimes you don't have to bump me. Just turning a corner could be deadly for the next soul.

People say it sucks to get old...but it's nice to have the excuse.  ;D
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 20, 2016, 12:22:33 AM
Golleeeeee.... and hot diggy dog Uncle Jed we done got us some piccys...... :lolb:
Mighty fine Zee and I should hope that your courage is going up with this challenge, seeing as you've make considerable progress.  8)

Uncle Jed? You're as bad as Cletus.  ;D
I can't agree with 'considerable' progress, but thanks. Still plodding along. However slow, it's better than standstill.

And if anyone starts with an 'Uncle Zee'...you'd better be young and related, i.e. the one and only niece I have.
That, or within -5 years, +anything, female, and interested.  :lolb: It's that last part that generally breaks it.  :'(

Hey...another thanks for doing that thread on polishing.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 20, 2016, 12:38:43 AM
Reminds me of when my kids, when they were young, were laughing when my grandmother got up and sounded like a motor boat as she went down the hall.
Mom (my mom) taught them how that happens to people as they age and it really isn't funny. I'm thankful they understood.

There's been the occasion where I forget to zip up. (One of my top fears on my two lists of fears.)
Thankfully I haven't been in a position of "Oh did I forget my undies too?". Not as I recall anyway.

Two lists of fears...

The biggie...fire, knives, etc.
The more daily one...zipping up, boogies on my face, drooling, snorking, etc.

Bet you're wondering about 'snorking'. It's that embarrassing kind of laugh. Ha ha ha snork ha ha ha. Happens to all of us.
Is great to be human.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on March 20, 2016, 01:10:57 AM
Um....in the case of the last post...thanks for NOT including pics  :whoohoo:

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on March 20, 2016, 02:40:57 AM

There's been the occasion where I forget to zip up. (One of my top fears on my two lists of fears.)


Hey Carl..................look at the bright side.....................that's still way better than forgetting to zip down!  :hammer bash:

Oh wait.........maybe that's your second fear!  :embarassed:

Jim
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 20, 2016, 08:56:52 PM
...that's still way better than forgetting to zip down!

No. Zipping up includes a risk of damage, pain, and even more embarrassment. Although I find this risk getting smaller as I age.  :lolb:

Had some good time in zee-land today.

Finished all the operations on the cylinders. But I still need to get the broken tap out of the one.

This was the setup to mill for the steam outlet gland. After doing the right one, I shifted everything over to do the left. I needed to keep some room inbetween them for the edge finder. The first one did not go cleanly. Dull end mill and quite a bit of metal was pushed up and out rather than cut. For the 2nd cylinder I used a new end mill. So nice.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/Cyl_Mill_zpslxhmew2q.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/Cyl_Mill_zpslxhmew2q.jpg.html)

After milling, I kept Y and used the edge finder to come in X for drilling to the vent and then drilling/threading for the gland.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/Cyl_ForDrill_zpspojltgp9.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/Cyl_ForDrill_zpspojltgp9.jpg.html)

Eyeballed when the drill made it to the vent. (I think I scribe too hard.) This also did not go so well for the 1st cylinder. I used a 1/64 under drill bit for the gland but the hole was large. Still managed to tap but I suspect the threads are fairly small. Might still work. I used the worse cylinder for all first time operations as practice in hopes that if I mucked up I could keep it to redoing just one cylinder.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/Cyl_ToVent_zpsmbsbaqn2.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/Cyl_ToVent_zpsmbsbaqn2.jpg.html)

As usual, I was out of Z height. So I set it on a parallel and used a square to line up. Just needed to be close enough.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/Cyl_Square_zpsnrlgjm1q.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/Cyl_Square_zpsnrlgjm1q.jpg.html)

I used the same eyeball technique to drill to the vent. Then milled out a pocket.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/Cyl_MillVent_zpsrikhx07o.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/Cyl_MillVent_zpsrikhx07o.jpg.html)

Wouldn't you know it. Last operation. The mess I'd made drilling the holes for the covers came back to haunt me.
Just a little too close for comfort so I just moved over a little. The vents are long enough not to be a problem.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/Cyl_LastHole_zps9sde4wqu.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/Cyl_LastHole_zps9sde4wqu.jpg.html)

Cleaned up a little and washed the cylinders. It was cool to see the water going where it should.
Loosely put together to 'admire'...

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/Cyl_Family_zpstrcn6cye.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/Cyl_Family_zpstrcn6cye.jpg.html)

When I had the cylinders washed and dried, it sure was fun just playing with them in my hand.

Just a few minutes before 5. I think I'll go ahead and celebrate with a couple of 'stinking hoppies'.
Pretty good day.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on March 20, 2016, 09:06:50 PM
Zee look's to be good results to me buddy. So I think you deserved that stinking Hoppie.  :ThumbsUp:


 :wine1:

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on March 20, 2016, 10:13:20 PM
Looking fine!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on March 20, 2016, 10:36:52 PM
And seven..count 'em....seven pictures to boot. A nice afternoon's work Zee. Celebration is in order !!

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: philjoe5 on March 20, 2016, 10:59:24 PM
Looking good Zee.  You're doing some fine work, especially on that mini-mill.  I started out on the HF brand, but that lack of "z" or was it "Zee"  :Lol: pretty much pushed me up in scale.

Cheers,
Phil
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 20, 2016, 11:16:58 PM
Thanks all.

Phil...that is an HF mini-mill. It has it's problems but I'm liking it. Can't beat it for the money and it's easily improved with a few mods. Yet...I'm really looking forward to another. But I doubt I'll ever get rid of this one.

The pictures are lying. Close-ups would show a lot of mars, scratches, etc. Still, I think a lot will clean up. I have a number of worries but it will be some time to see if they play out or not. The tapped holes for glands barely have threads, some mars and boo-boos I'm not sure can be hidden (although I do wonder about painting parts of this), not sure about the cylinder bores, but most important, whether the piston and valve rods remain true (if they even are at this point).

Ah poo. It'll work. Might empty my air compressor in 20 seconds...but it'll run.  :Lol:

Someday. That last shot is the sum total of work since mid-December.
Hm...actually not bad considering.

Besides...good practice for the next engine. And I know what it is.  ;D
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 20, 2016, 11:43:26 PM
Hm...maybe could be beat for the money. I forgot the spending for the head lift, better gib screws, belt drive. And I've never gotten around to modifying the gibs which I think might really trick it out.

Still...it's mine.

I have a shop.

Used to be I thought you had to have a grill, lawn tractor, and a bowling ball to be a man.
Now I'm beginning to think...it's the shop that makes the man.  :lolb:

Or woman.

(Whew...that was close.)
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on March 21, 2016, 01:04:15 AM
If you have a shop you can BUILD everything else!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on March 21, 2016, 05:25:41 PM
You got the grill last year didn't you ? Nice work BTW. What's for dinner tonight?

Cletus
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 21, 2016, 06:35:02 PM
Last night was an excellent roast with really good roasted veggies.
Tonight it's Reubens again.  :pinkelephant:
And for some reason, she's been buying me ice cream.
My favorite - house brand plain vanilla. When I'm real lucky she also gets bananas. A little chocolate syrup and I'm a happy dude.
 :thinking: What's she up to?  :shrug:
I have a suspicion...and if true...it's going to take more ice cream.

Although given the day I'm having at work.. :cussing:..it may be just a liquid supper.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on March 21, 2016, 11:14:05 PM
I like the really high milk fat,  vanilla bean,  image that  :lolb:. I will also admit to liking it with plain Lay's Potato Chips  (crisps ) ,however,  I don't think even I could cross it with tipsy onions  :disagree: :facepalm:. Does T do her own corned beef,  or is there a deli like I dream for here somewhere near? 

Cletus

Oh yeah, machining,  new end mills do make you feel good,  don't they?
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 21, 2016, 11:44:39 PM
I like the really high milk fat,  vanilla bean,  image that  :lolb:. I will also admit to liking it with plain Lay's Potato Chips  (crisps ) ,however,  I don't think even I could cross it with tipsy onions  :disagree: :facepalm:. Does T do her own corned beef,  or is there a deli like I dream for here somewhere near? 

Cletus

Oh yeah, machining,  new end mills do make you feel good,  don't they?

She doesn't do her own corned beef. And there's loads of delis around here. She does do her own bread. And what a treat it was when she was figuring out how to do the kind you get in France. I was raised on Wonder Bread and am sure glad I found T. (The french bread is great...but I sometimes think you can never get it to be the same as having it in France. Either because they keep the best ingredients there, or can't get them here because of our restrictions, or possibly it's just the ambience.)

I'd bought a new set of end mills a while back for a special project...not realizing it might be this one. I'll keep the cruddy ones for roughing and they're still good for milling edges.

Right now I'm wondering when I'm going to make another part. I keep picking up the cylinders and playing with them.  ;D
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on March 21, 2016, 11:48:33 PM
You've been hanging around Jo too much Zee.  That fondling-itis must be contagious  ;) And all this talk of bread and corned beef is making me hungry!!

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 21, 2016, 11:51:11 PM
You've been hanging around Jo too much Zee.

No. Not enough.  :naughty:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on March 21, 2016, 11:51:34 PM
Jo says fondling is good  :stir:  I think the water has a lot to do with the flavor of bread. Some say that's why New York bagels and pizza is so good  :shrug:

Cletus

See I ain't the only one thinking it  :lolb:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on March 21, 2016, 11:53:32 PM
Ice cream, corn beef, French bread, oh no there we go again getting back to food. So OK where we going to get it guys I am hungry too and who's buying. ...... :lolb:
French bread and corn beef oh man my favorite........ :Love:

HUNGRY COONASS. .... :wine1:

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on March 22, 2016, 12:31:29 AM
With a crawdad appetizer!!

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on March 22, 2016, 12:42:55 AM
Don't forget the cookies!

And belgian beer.

And chocolate.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 22, 2016, 01:29:48 AM
Not my fault at all.

Have to have seen Cletus's thread to get this I guess.

I post a few pics of an ENGINE and now we're on the food network.  :lolb:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: sshire on March 22, 2016, 01:43:37 AM
OK,Zee
Since we've moved into food mode, here's the deal with the French bread.

1. You can't get the correct flour in this country. It's French type 45 or 55. (This is my flour drawer. I'm sworn to secrecy). 

 (http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l604/sshire/2575CA45-3598-4F4F-8FB6-05E5A82254DF.jpg) (http://s1126.photobucket.com/user/sshire/media/2575CA45-3598-4F4F-8FB6-05E5A82254DF.jpg.html)

2. Send T to the 5 day Artisan Bread Course at King Arthur Flour in Vermont. I had a great week there and learned an amazing number of things.

3. The best bread in the world was made by Lionel Poilâne. After he died in 2002, his daughter took over. I've had her bread. Same as Dad and Grandad's.  (http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l604/sshire/4AB9CF9C-AEF9-4AFF-9166-9A76EB354D52.jpg) (http://s1126.photobucket.com/user/sshire/media/4AB9CF9C-AEF9-4AFF-9166-9A76EB354D52.jpg.html)

4. Without a starter, (biga, poolish,etc) there's no chance of a decent loaf. (Compared to Wonder Bread, anything is decent)
5. A major component of the whole French Bread thing is the crust. Paper thin and shatters like glass. Only one way to get it. Steam injected oven. No, dumping water into a pan in the oven, ice cubes in a skillet, water spray bottle are all useless. The steam under pressure at the beginning of the bake is the key. There's your next project. PMR Horizontal Boiler, piped to the oven.
6. You can get sort of close to the French Type 55 flour with a 50/50 blend of King Arthur AP and King Arthur Bread Flour.
7. Stop using supermarket yeast. SAF Red Instant Yeast. About $6 a pound. Great yeast.
8. That's what I know.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: philjoe5 on March 22, 2016, 02:07:48 AM
It's nice to have a nightcap and peek in to see what progress is being made.  Tonight though, I think I had a bit too much Irish because this steam engine has suddenly become very confusing :headscratch: :headscratch:

Cheers, :pinkelephant:
Phil
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 22, 2016, 10:24:06 AM
It's nice to have a nightcap and peek in to see what progress is being made.  Tonight though, I think I had a bit too much Irish because this steam engine has suddenly become very confusing

I sometimes have the same reaction.  :ROFL: I often enter here with great trepidation. And it's my thread.  :thinking:

This is what I get for answering a question. Cletus...next time you may get ignored. Take it personally.  :ROFL:

Thanks Stan. I'll have to tell T about the Vermont thing.
We know about the flour thing and she's tried different blends. (I see some King Arthur less than 10 feet away.)
As for crust...a big part of that is personal taste. She's a crust lover (thicker) and I'm not (thin).
The yeast sounds familiar but I'll tell her about it.

I hadn't noticed any steam injected ovens in the pastry shops.

In any case, she makes great bread.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 25, 2016, 07:09:44 PM
The merest progress...

Worked on the steam chest outriggers...

The beginning stock shaped up a bit.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/OutRiggerx_zpsv7jnbza7.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/OutRiggerx_zpsv7jnbza7.jpg.html)

After drilling some holes and a bit of milling.
To mill that 2"-ish by 1/4" I had to have the part stick out of the vise. I'd placed a parallel behind it, horizontally, to give some backing.
I'd also made some buttons. Hadn't seen much in the forum on such things for a while so I thought it worthwhile.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/OutRiggerMilled_zpsutqbuwpw.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/OutRiggerMilled_zpsutqbuwpw.jpg.html)

Ready to file using my handmade machinist clamp. I think it might have been easier to drill through the buttons and bolt the things up but this wasn't difficult to do.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/OutRiggerReady_zps9dudk8vf.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/OutRiggerReady_zps9dudk8vf.jpg.html)

Done filing. The machinist clamp was held in a bench vise. (Wow. T gave me that bench vise some 35 years ago. I had no use for it until I started this hobby 8 years ago.)

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/OutRiggerRoundeda_zpscm6doley.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/OutRiggerRoundeda_zpscm6doley.jpg.html)

The picture doesn't really do it justice. I think it came out swell. Should look great after some sanding/polishing.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/OutRiggerRounded_zps2jg0kgdp.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/OutRiggerRounded_zps2jg0kgdp.jpg.html)

At this point I realized I have two problems. Remember the steam chests...

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/Family1_zpsax0ufmok.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/Family1_zpsax0ufmok.jpg.html)

No holes to mount the outrigger! Somehow I forgot that operation.  :-[

The other problem is how to do the 1/8" by 2.5" slot in the outrigger. My 1/8" end-mill only has a 3/8" cutting length and I need to go through 1/2".
I'd thought about milling one side, flipping, and then milling the other.

But a certain comment made on another thread, having to do with me showing 'how not to do things", made me stop.
I won't name that person...but you all know who she is.  :Lol:

I'm going to order an 1/8" end mill with 3/4" cutting length. Hertel has one for under $9 at Enco.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on March 25, 2016, 07:48:20 PM
Any progress is progress! Outriggers look good.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: sco on March 25, 2016, 08:03:39 PM
How about a slitting saw to cut the slot Zee rather than a long delicate end mill?

Simon.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on March 25, 2016, 08:21:20 PM
Zee are those outriggers the right length? To me the 1/4 x 5/8 section looks to be less than half the length when it should be just over half.

Same wit the slot, although not dimentioned I would say it should be about 1.5" long.

J
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 25, 2016, 08:35:15 PM
Thanks Chris.
Simon...I gave a slitting saw serious thought. But I couldn't figure out a number of things...

1) How to get square (or round) at the end of the slot. (See red arrow in attachment.)
2) How to keep the outrigger from getting slapped around as I cut 2.5". I thought about a sacrificial block to help (see purple in attachment). A machinist jack underneath would also help. But would the part bounce off it?

I suppose some filing would do for the end of the slot but it would be quite a bit unless I came around to the other side to knock it down a bit.

I'm open to suggestions. Either way I'd have to order a cutter. I don't have an 1/8" slitting saw.

I've busted one 1/8" end mill already in a stainless steel rod. But I'm thinking this is aluminum and with shallow cuts and slow speed I should (hopefully) be okay.

Just saw your post Jason. I'll go check the drawings and get back to you.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on March 25, 2016, 08:49:22 PM
You could drill a hole before you cut teh slot to give a rounded end but you won't get teh saw to cut all the way to teh hole

Provided you have your vice clocked true and you keep the same face of the work against the fixed jaw milling from both sides should be fine particularly with a 2-flute cutter that won't get pulled to one side.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 25, 2016, 08:51:05 PM
 :cussing: :cussing: :cussing:

I was all set to tell Jason to take a hike. I checked my drawing (Cubify Design) and all was well. And I knew (thought) the animated assembly was fine. Everything spot on.

5.25" long, 2.188" milled away...uh...why did he say 'just over half'?

Went to the original drawing. Took a snip to attach it so I could give Jason a bit of a slap. And then I saw it.

4.25" long.  :cussing: :cussing: :cussing:

How in the world did I read the 4 as a 5?
And just keep quiet Marv. I'd been over these drawings a number of times when I did the CAD work.  ;D

What really irks me...up to now, even with the CAD stuff, I'd been referencing the original drawings.
This time...this time!, (worried about some of the errors I'd come across), I printed the drawing from the CAD.

So here it is my friends..."crap crap and crap". With an additional 'darn it'.

Thanks Jason. Seriously.  :ThumbsUp:

And now, as I always try to do...the silver lining...

The next set will be even better.
I have buttons.
I have helpful friends.

I get an extra 'stinking hoppie' to drown my woes in celebrate.

Still.... :'( :'( :'(
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on March 25, 2016, 08:53:59 PM
Zee you should not need a complete new pair, just cut off the excess and redo the end. Its better than if you had made them 3" long
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on March 25, 2016, 08:56:38 PM
Well Zee, good to know your still human buddy, the old saying s*^+% happens.......
Good to know you caught it now anyway....... :ThumbsUp:

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 25, 2016, 09:00:24 PM
You could drill a hole before you cut teh slot to give a rounded end but you won't get teh saw to cut all the way to teh hole

Provided you have your vice clocked true and you keep the same face of the work against the fixed jaw milling from both sides should be fine particularly with a 2-flute cutter that won't get pulled to one side.

I could have used a longer 1/8" end mill a couple of times already so I'm not too bothered buying and waiting for one.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 25, 2016, 09:04:25 PM
Jason...quite right. It's an easy fix.

Don...thanks!

Well it's not like I burned supper.  :lolb:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on March 25, 2016, 10:07:02 PM
Depending on the material (especially for steel, for aluminum too sometimes if the alloy is one of the ones that likes to stick to the cutter edge), for long slots like that I will frequently drill a chain of holes down the length to remove the bulk of the material, goes pretty quick in the mill. Then come back with the end mill and connect the dots.

Glad you guys caught that one! Though we might have learned some new phrases...   :cheers:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 25, 2016, 10:45:02 PM
Depending on the material (especially for steel, for aluminum too sometimes if the alloy is one of the ones that likes to stick to the cutter edge), for long slots like that I will frequently drill a chain of holes down the length to remove the bulk of the material, goes pretty quick in the mill. Then come back with the end mill and connect the dots.

I had similar thoughts. Probably not this time. I won't be going in at full depth anyway.

Jason...I'm still amazed how you caught that. I don't recall you had done the Monitor...what made you think something was wrong? (Other than since it was me...there had to be something amiss.)
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: philjoe5 on March 25, 2016, 10:48:39 PM
Zee,
Good work despite the mistake.  And you're right, second time through goes faster with all the fixtures already made.  I should warn you though, and I'm speaking of my own experience in my shop today which I'll post on my build log, the third try doesn't go any faster than the second one. :wallbang:

Cheers,
Phil
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on March 25, 2016, 11:19:22 PM
And on the fourth try you forget the thing you learned on the second one...
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on March 26, 2016, 07:49:26 AM

Jason...I'm still amazed how you caught that. I don't recall you had done the Monitor...what made you think something was wrong?

Well firstly I was a bit shocked to find some actual progress in the thread.   ;)  Once I had got over that I saw the question about the slot so had a quick look at the drawings before commenting and that is when things did not look right.

Quote
(Other than since it was me...there had to be something amiss.)

Well at least you are consistant :mischief:

If you do drill out some of the waste from teh slot use a slightly smaller drill say 3/32" as if you used an 1/8" drill and it cut oversize you won't get a smooth side to the slot. Either way when you come to mill it go say 1/32" deep per pass and keep the swarf out of the slot.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Roger B on March 26, 2016, 09:26:57 AM
Just caught up with this thread again. There's some good engine progress hidden in there  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp: (lots of other stuff as well  ::) )
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: bruedney on April 01, 2016, 09:09:44 AM
Hey Zee

What's happening? No shop time lately? No pics  :'(
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: sco on April 01, 2016, 09:40:53 AM
Yeah not even any random waffle apart from 'stinking squirrel' in the shout box - is everything alright Zee?

Simon.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 01, 2016, 12:01:16 PM
Sorry all. Everything is fine.
It's that squirrel.
(Think 'Up'. Just a bit of distraction.)  ;D

Thanks for checking on me.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on April 01, 2016, 06:24:12 PM
So, it's hot pepper pizza Friday with a stinking hoppie back,  should we expect anything other than banter for the next few hours  :shrug: :facepalm:

Cletus
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on April 01, 2016, 07:22:21 PM
So, it's hot pepper pizza Friday with a stinking hoppie back,  should we expect anything other than banter for the next few hours  :shrug: :facepalm:

Cletus
Ah come on Dog, don't get him started on food again. Don't you thing we done ate enough.  :lolb: Crawfish did some body say crawfish......... :Love: :lolb:

 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 01, 2016, 09:08:50 PM
Off we go, rolling down the valley into Banterville!

So, what did that squirrel do to you , anyway? Make cracks about your nuts?! Steal your Hoppie?   :lolb:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on April 01, 2016, 09:13:34 PM
Now Don, why you done have to bring up them mud bugs,  boil the corn and potatoes and C'est si bon  :cheers: :DrinkPint: :lolb: Did someone mention a squirrel?  Hey Rocky,  want to watch me pull a rabbit outta my hat,  oops,  wrong hat  :lolb: :lolb:

Cletus
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 01, 2016, 10:16:24 PM
Well we all know where the banter finger points to.  ;D

No pizza tonight. Had anchovie pizza last night. Tonight it's homemade mac-n-cheese with ham. Homemade my friends with proper cheeses, bay leaf, and pepper corns. Very delicious.

Stinking hoppies as always.

The squirrel...

I had a wild hair and it took a while to pull. Unfortunately, I think the root got left behind so I expect it will come back.
I get these things once in a while. This one didn't seem to grow much.

I'm hoping to get some machine time in this weekend.

Chris - ever see the movie 'Up'?
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on April 01, 2016, 10:58:28 PM
First of all,  no fair swapping nights,  secondly,  +1 on the anchovies  :cheers:. . Machine time : let her rip potato chip.  You have upcoming garden projects to bargain with;  I'm like one of those TV attorneys,  let us help you,  help me  :lolb:. So, did she make the mac noodles from scratch?  :thinking: :stir: :lolb:

Cuz'n Cletus
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 02, 2016, 12:13:21 AM
+2 on the anchovies!!  We'll be here when you are Zeepster...enjoy the mac and cheese.

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: PStechPaul on April 02, 2016, 12:39:19 AM
Try some Worcestershire sauce on the Mac'n'Cheese. Makin' my mouth water as I speak... - er... - type!

As for making the slot, perhaps a blade from a hacksaw or an even wider one from a sabre saw or reciprocating saw might get it pretty close, and then use the mill to clean it up. Maybe even rig up something using the broken 1/8" slitting saw as a slot cutter or shaper of sorts?
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 02, 2016, 08:20:47 PM
I drilled two holes today.
My camera doesn't do well with holes so the pic is a little out of focus.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Roger B on April 02, 2016, 08:22:39 PM
We believe you :)
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: bruedney on April 02, 2016, 08:25:11 PM
Sure you did Zee!!! Too many stinking' hoppies me thinks
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on April 02, 2016, 08:44:09 PM
Well Zee, maybe if you would of put anchovies   :Love:  on it we might believe you ......... :lolb:


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 02, 2016, 08:55:02 PM
Wow, lotta chips left in those holes, filled em right in....   :stickpoke:

Did you use the holographic drill on the virtual parts in the milling simulation game?  Hmmm, new from Rovio, Machinist-Birds - chuck up a pig and see what you can build!   :ROFL:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 02, 2016, 10:40:29 PM
Geesh. You people complain about pics and when you get one, you still complain.
Not my fault you can't see the holes.

I did manage a bit more...holes...

I drilled all the holes for the outriggers. Pictured with a 4-40 holding them in place.
I'd like to round 3 corners of the outriggers but haven't figured out a good way to do it yet.
I'm thinking a bit of super glue to place some buttons and then clamps while I file.

I also shortened the steam chest outriggers and rounded the ends using the buttons I'd made. Hopefully they meet Jason's requirements.  ;D
I haven't ordered the end mill yet to do the slots.

Hopefully I get some more time in tomorrow.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/Family040216_zpsufthblpy.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/Family040216_zpsufthblpy.jpg.html)

Tonight it's homemade crab-cakes. I generally limit my consumption of bottom dwellers to shrimp...but T makes good crab-cakes. I'm also not a big fish eater but T has some excellent fish recipes. So I'll eat fish at home...but I never order it when I eat out.

Machinist-Birds - chuck up a pig and see what you can build!   :ROFL:

I think more than one of us have been playing that game for years.  :ROFL:

Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 02, 2016, 10:57:03 PM
For rounding corners like that I usually take it to the disc or belt sander, plate flat on the table and hand rotate it through 90 to take off the corner. Takes just a little coordination but goes quick.

Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 02, 2016, 11:03:21 PM
For rounding corners like that I usually take it to the disc or belt sander, plate flat on the table and hand rotate it through 90 to take off the corner. Takes just a little coordination but goes quick.

I'll try that. I can practice on some scrap and see if I get what I want. Thanks.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 02, 2016, 11:20:50 PM
For rounding corners like that I usually take it to the disc or belt sander, plate flat on the table and hand rotate it through 90 to take off the corner. Takes just a little coordination but goes quick.

I'll try that. I can practice on some scrap and see if I get what I want. Thanks.

I just remembered I have some round-over mills. I think that's the way I'll go.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 02, 2016, 11:22:01 PM
For rounding corners like that I usually take it to the disc or belt sander, plate flat on the table and hand rotate it through 90 to take off the corner. Takes just a little coordination but goes quick.

I'll try that. I can practice on some scrap and see if I get what I want. Thanks.

Have a bowl or bucket of water handy, dunk it frequently since it will heat up fast.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 03, 2016, 01:34:23 AM
That is quite a nice family shot there Zee. And a real picture too, not those out of focus virtual holes  :lolb:  Crab cakes eh? One of my favorites but so are shrimp. Maybe we need to nominate T for the cook laureate position on the forum!!

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 03, 2016, 01:41:36 AM
That is quite a nice family shot there Zee. And a real picture too, not those out of focus virtual holes

Thanks Bill. Actually, the holes are in perfect focus...the background is not.

Took a run at using the round-over. Overall it went well. Cut too deep on one but managed to do the same on the other and just milled off the excess. Only you people will notice one outrigger is 3/64 shorter than the other.  :lolb:

Be quiet Dave.  ;D Tomorrow is another day.

If all goes well I'll do the rear bearing blocks tomorrow.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Pete49 on April 03, 2016, 03:52:34 AM
well with the bread, pizza, stinking hoppies, mac & cheese I'll never get to making anything but food. :lolb: I'm watching closely so when I start I'll know what to avoid besides food. Keep at it old fella your audience loves the way this thread goes.
Pete
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Alan Haisley on April 03, 2016, 03:28:37 PM
For rounding corners like that I usually take it to the disc or belt sander, plate flat on the table and hand rotate it through 90 to take off the corner. Takes just a little coordination but goes quick.

I'll try that. I can practice on some scrap and see if I get what I want. Thanks.


At least with the sander you can get close to the line and save some filing if you do use buttons. It's not as sudden as your round-over bits but it lets you creep up on the mark rather than just jump over it.  :Jester:

Alan
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: kvom on April 03, 2016, 04:01:23 PM
On this thread I wait until there's about 5 more pages before looking in.  Then I  might find one page with a part being made.   :shrug:

Family shot looks good.   :cheers:  :DrinkPint:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 03, 2016, 04:12:35 PM
Thanks Pete and Alan.

On this thread I wait until there's about 5 more pages before looking in.  Then I  might find one page with a part being made.

I don't blame you.  :ROFL:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: philjoe5 on April 03, 2016, 04:36:47 PM
I like the family shot too.  :ThumbsUp:

When you say "round over" bit, what does this cutter look like?  Is it like one of those carbide tipped router tool bits?

Cheers,
Phil
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 03, 2016, 04:58:59 PM
Thanks Phil.

When you say "round over" bit, what does this cutter look like?  Is it like one of those carbide tipped router tool bits?

On the box it's called "rounding end mill cutter". HSS.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/RoundingEnd_zpsnf2vq4v3.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/RoundingEnd_zpsnf2vq4v3.jpg.html)

Thanks for the opportunity to post a pic.  ;D
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 03, 2016, 06:01:51 PM
Wow, a whole set of them!!  Nice Zee

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 03, 2016, 08:45:32 PM
No pic of how the outrigger ends came out?   :shrug:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 03, 2016, 10:08:16 PM
Had some quality time. Quality work is another story.

'Finished' the rear bearings.

Part of the job was to split the bearing. I used a slitting saw...

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Slitting_zpsfex4qgkr.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Slitting_zpsfex4qgkr.jpg.html)

After checking limits I ended up with that configuration. I knew before I started I'd have a problem cutting all the way through.
Got as close as I could and then did something of an around the world. I didn't really want to do that but I didn't want to use the bandsaw and I don't know if a larger diameter saw would be available (and wouldn't have waited for it anyway).

Came out 'okay' but the cut was somewhat crappy...

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/RearBearing1_zpsyxv7jssq.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/RearBearing1_zpsyxv7jssq.jpg.html)

So I milled a few thou off the faces and it turned out okay. I also rounded the top corners using a 1/16 round end mill.
Not great but a little filing and sanding and I think it'll look okay.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/RearBearing2_zpsq1xtlq5r.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/RearBearing2_zpsq1xtlq5r.jpg.html)

Another family shot showing the rear bearings where they go. This time I remembered a scale.
Chris...you can see the left outrigger with the corners rounded. I did the front two corners and one in back. Don't need to do the 4th.
I haven't finished the right outrigger.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Family040316a_zpst0odzwjj.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Family040316a_zpst0odzwjj.jpg.html)

Pretty decent day for me.  ;D

I (and certainly you all) can see there will be a lot of filing, sanding, and finishing to do once I have the parts made.
That will probably take as long or longer than making all the parts.

Will you be ready for another 17000 thousand and more posts of food, banter, and no pics?  :ROFL:

Which reminds me...tonight...stir-fry with shrimp, peas, peppers and rice. Love that stuff!

Thanks for hanging in with me.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on April 03, 2016, 11:02:44 PM
Hey we got some piccys ......... Looking good Zee and it don't matter how you do it, it's the end results that count. No food intended.......... ;D

 :wine1:
Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on April 04, 2016, 12:43:43 AM
This is proof what good food,  good drinks,  and good friends will do: I had no idea you had really gotten this far.  The family shot looks great  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:. Homemade crab cakes huh? Fresh from shell crab?  That's just ain't no way to do my taste buds,  shame,  shame, shame  :lolb:.

Cletus
:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: bruedney on April 04, 2016, 12:56:16 AM
Nice  :pinkelephant:

Once I find my workshop floor again (after stripping a rather large colour laser printer  :killcomputer: ) I am going to make a start on this build.

I will even try to remember to take pictures.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 04, 2016, 01:04:56 AM
Thanks Don. Say, what are you up to? Building anything or still getting used to retirement? If it's the latter...be careful...one can get used to not being busy.

Fresh from shell crab?

I generally don't ask a lot of questions. I just enjoy the food. (But no, I don't think so.)
Well I don't just enjoy the food. I make sure to comment on the special things so she'll keep going. Like tonight...I was surprised she'd put cauliflower in the stir-fry. Wow. It was excellent.

Can't get her to make a childhood favorite though. Cauliflower and Velveeta. She refuses to buy Velveeta. I understand...but I miss it anyway.

I am going to make a start on this build.

Excellent! I don't know what equipment you have...but the smaller scale like Chris did might be the way to go. I will watch.

I will even try to remember to take pictures.

 :lolb: You need not worry about remembering. Loads of people here who won't let you.   ;)
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 04, 2016, 01:11:33 AM
Those latest pictures a just down right impressive Zee. You have really come a long way my friend!!

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: bruedney on April 04, 2016, 01:12:52 AM

Excellent! I don't know what equipment you have...but the smaller scale like Chris did might be the way to go. I will watch.

I have a 9 x 20 lathe and access to a big beastie and a Grizzly G0704 equivalent mill so should be OK

I will even try to remember to take pictures.
:lolb: You need not worry about remembering. Loads of people here who won't let you.   ;)

I am thinking that I need to get some new batteries for my camera and find my tripod otherwise they will never happen

Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 04, 2016, 01:26:38 AM
Those latest pictures a just down right impressive Zee. You have really come a long way my friend!!

Thanks Bill. With your help and many others on this forum.

I am thinking that I need to get some new batteries for my camera and find my tripod otherwise they will never happen

Thinking? It's not a question. I have learned that without pics...people yell at you. I don't like being yelled at. I suspect you're the same.
So get the batteries, find the tripod, and get started!

And if you want to include some New Zealand cuisine...I'm up for it.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 04, 2016, 01:29:06 AM
Those latest pictures a just down right impressive Zee. You have really come a long way my friend!!

Thanks Bill. With your help and many others on this forum.

I am thinking that I need to get some new batteries for my camera and find my tripod otherwise they will never happen

Thinking? It's not a question. I have learned that without pics...people yell at you. I don't like being yelled at. I suspect you're the same.
So get the batteries, find the tripod, and get started!

And if you want to include some New Zealand cuisine...I'm up for it.
Batter dipped Kiwi birds?
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: bruedney on April 04, 2016, 01:48:02 AM
Batter dipped Kiwi birds?

 :lolb: They are a protected species so more likely

Deep fried weta or hoohoo grubs could be an option but I am not keen on trying either

Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 04, 2016, 01:56:39 AM
yeah I'm going to have to pass on them.
I've had ant eggs and grassphoppers... but won't go out of my way for them.
Only had them because I was in Mexico on business. Political thing. Had to be plastered.
They were good as far as I remember.

C'mon. You can do better.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 04, 2016, 02:20:33 AM
C'mon. You can do better.

We can hope!!   :lolb:

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: philjoe5 on April 04, 2016, 03:29:13 AM
Once again, I popped in for a peek and am completely flummoxed.   :headscratch:  I'm thinking that's why I keep peeking.  When I was a kid my favorite Sunday comic was "The Strange World of Mr. Mum".  Now I understand why I keep coming back here :ROFL:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-eW0d6r5Oe9M/Tp2uvyGKzCI/AAAAAAAAD1c/vKVFL7qbr4k/s1600/Mr.+Mum+Feb+21+1960.jpg

Cheers,
Phil
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on April 04, 2016, 10:43:38 PM
Thanks Don. Say, what are you up to? Building anything or still getting used to retirement? If it's the latter...be careful...one can get used to not being busy.
No worry Zee I am always into something. Just getting things ready in the shop a taking time off to enjoy myself plus spring stuff in the yard and around the house. I will be into an engine build soon. I have all my material ready. There are still a few tools to finish nothing great just basic stuff plus a few gear cutters and gears to make. Thanks for asking buddy...

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 04, 2016, 10:59:58 PM
Good to hear Don. Don't take too long.
Bill...hope is what keeps me going.
Phil...you've been here enough times, I can only assume you like the flummox feeling. But it's not your fault anyway. The poster (uh, me) is just as flummoxed.

====

Question: What variety of Loctite should I get? The application is mainly for brass bearings in an aluminum holder. Like those rear bearing blocks I just made. Can the same be used for threaded studs when I get to the point of making of studs-n-nuts?

I remember using the stuff back when I was in robotics. Seems like I remember 262. That was used to ensure socket head cap screws didn't back out.
I also remember it being anaerobic. (Love that word.)

====

A bit more information on how I did the bearing blocks for other newbies...not that it's the correct way...

After sawing the bearing block and milling the faces I:
1) Deburred the holes. By hand using a cheapo counter sink counter.
2) Retapped the holes
3) Drilled out the holes in the tops so the screws would slide through to the bottom half.

Retapping the holes in the bottom half was for two purposes:
1) Although I could drill to the depth I wanted, I couldn't tap to that depth. So this gave me a bit more.
2) Cleaned up the thread after milling.

I will always be a newbie and I am happy to be so. Otherwise I run out of excuses.  ;D
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: V 45 on April 04, 2016, 11:06:40 PM
Zee...Your progress looks great !! I agree with the whole time thing !! Enjoy the journey !!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 05, 2016, 12:46:54 AM
For loctite, I use two types a lot: 271 Red, for cases where I need max strength. It is removeable if you heat it with a torch, forget the temperature needed. Great for glueing bearings in place, cranks on shafts, etc. It can be used like glue for metal parts.

242 Blue for cases where I want to prevent screws from turning, but can be removed with hand tools, just need a fair bit of twist.

Third one started using recently is 603, Green, use it for fixing flex shafts in shaft fittings for rc drives. I dont know diffs from red, but the shaft manufacturer said to use that one.

All need absence of oxygen to cure properly, so tight(ish) joints are best.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 05, 2016, 01:11:53 AM
V45...post #887 if you're looking for some holes.  ;D
(You'll be wasting your time though. Those holes are kind of useless. Not a lot of meat around them.)

Thanks Chris!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: V 45 on April 05, 2016, 01:15:02 AM
The whole hole pic is GREAT !!!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 05, 2016, 01:18:21 AM
Anybody else having problems with getting on the Enco site?
All evening when I get on, I type a search word and it just comes back saying it doesn't know the word and lists some alternatives...which include the word I typed.

Fooey.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: V 45 on April 05, 2016, 01:20:00 AM
Must have been a hole in the system !!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 05, 2016, 01:32:37 AM
Just tried it, did a search for 'drill bit' and got a lot of hits.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 05, 2016, 02:36:06 AM
I'll try again later.

In the meantime...youngest came over to talk wedding with T. So while the mice played, the rat went to the shop.

I finished the other front bearing. Rounded both front bearings and finished rounding the other outrigger.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/FrontBearing_zpsocqsjifj.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/FrontBearing_zpsocqsjifj.jpg.html)

I think the rounding of those corners has improved the look.
The reason one of those cylinders looks crooked is...because it is. You'll recall one of the mounting holes underneath is in the wrong place so only one screw is holding it right now. I forgot to straighten the cylinder before I took the shot. I was so excited!

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/Family04042016_zpsvf8xobng.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/Family04042016_zpsvf8xobng.jpg.html)

Kind of looks like...like...some bits of shaped aluminum don't it?  :ROFL:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 05, 2016, 02:42:06 AM
Found the issue I was having with Enco. Had to close and reopen the browser.

Windows doesn't seem to like having things open for too long.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 05, 2016, 02:42:13 AM
Two pictures...you are on a roll zee...keep it up!!!  Well shaped aluminum too! That could still be some expensive shop time though :)

Bill

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 05, 2016, 02:58:03 AM
Really looking good! Coming together nicely.  :cartwheel:

Tell Don that its not aluminum, its a new alloy called 'white brass', he'll like it more!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 05, 2016, 03:27:28 AM
Two pictures...you are on a roll zee...keep it up!!!  Well shaped aluminum too! That could still be some expensive shop time though :)
Bill
Bill

Thanks Bill Bill.
Shop time is always expensive. Caught a little flak for not spending time with daughter.  :Lol:


Tell Don that its not aluminum, its a new alloy called 'white brass', he'll like it more!

Might work. Although it reminds me of 'white gold', which is something I've never understood.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: philjoe5 on April 05, 2016, 03:45:08 AM
Looking good Zee.  Making progress :ThumbsUp:

Cheers,
Phil
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: PStechPaul on April 05, 2016, 03:47:33 AM
Found the issue I was having with Enco. Had to close and reopen the browser.

Windows doesn't seem to like having things open for too long.

Yeah, when I leave my windows open too long, lots of bugs get in - stinkbugs! Probably something to do with my screen properties...  :Lol:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on April 05, 2016, 04:28:25 AM

Tell Don that its not aluminum, its a new alloy called 'white brass', he'll like it more!
Oh yea, try to fool the old coonass. Could be some alloy we find in the swamps  :lolb: :lolb: but I still like it Zee......... :ThumbsUp:

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 05, 2016, 11:51:15 AM
That was one Bill for each picture Zee... :Lol:

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: bruedney on April 05, 2016, 11:21:42 PM
Looking Good Carl

How did you do the fillet around the post of the Front housing? Was it with a ball nose end mill?
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 05, 2016, 11:39:05 PM
Thanks Phil.

Paul...at least those stinkbugs aren't blood-sucking parasites. Hate them.
No one around here knows what chiggers are.  :hellno: They know ticks and mosquitoes...but not chiggers.

Oh yea, try to fool the old coonass.

A challenge!

That was one Bill for each picture Zee... :Lol:

So what happened to the other Bills in the posts with more than two pics? Or is it one Bill per 'worthwhile pic'.  :Lol:
No doubt you gave me a 'gimme'. If not two.

Looking Good Carl
How did you do the fillet around the post of the Front housing? Was it with a ball nose end mill?

Thanks. Yes...ball nose end mill. Which I ruined because I forgot to add lubricant. Got some aluminum welded to it and can't get it off. Worse than a booger.

Kind of sad really. Our old pal Vernon sent it to me as a gift. Miss that guy.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: bruedney on April 06, 2016, 01:24:49 AM
Thanks Carl

Too many rpms or too fast feed speed?

I get all my End mills from this Ebay supplier - So far they have been great value (I tend to go for the carbide ones)

http://stores.ebay.com/hengyoutools/ (http://stores.ebay.com/hengyoutools/)
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 06, 2016, 02:00:35 AM
Too many rpms or too fast feed speed?

Probably too many rpms. I tend to feed slow. But to be honest, I don't really know what 'slow' is in this world. Still learning.

I'm fine with the boo-boos. Teaches me the limits.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on April 06, 2016, 03:05:52 AM

That was one Bill for each picture Zee... :Lol:

So what happened to the other Bills in the posts with more than two pics? Or is it one Bill per 'worthwhile pic'.  :Lol:
No doubt you gave me a 'gimme'. If not two.


Carl,

Maybe Bill needs this T-shirt: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Funny-Duck-Tales-T-Shirt-John-Baron-ONE-BILL-TOO-MANY-Humor-Pink-NWT-Head-Shop-/191839460734?hash=item2caa85dd7e

Just trying to help!  :lolb: :lolb: :lolb:

Jim
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 06, 2016, 03:27:10 AM

That was one Bill for each picture Zee... :Lol:

So what happened to the other Bills in the posts with more than two pics? Or is it one Bill per 'worthwhile pic'.  :Lol:
No doubt you gave me a 'gimme'. If not two.

Maybe Bill needs this T-shirt: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Funny-Duck-Tales-T-Shirt-John-Baron-ONE-BILL-TOO-MANY-Humor-Pink-NWT-Head-Shop-/191839460734?hash=item2caa85dd7e

 :lolb: Good one.
Can there really be too many Bills?

And sometimes, one of something is too much. Eh Cletus?
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: sshire on April 06, 2016, 11:52:03 AM
Zee
It's looking like a real engine. Great work so far that has turned into a real learning experience.
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 06, 2016, 01:40:19 PM
I like that :)

Bill
Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Pete49 on April 07, 2016, 05:10:41 AM
Carl for aluminium welded to HSS or carbide just mix a strong solution of caustic soda(lye to the us ensemble) and drop it in. Lye just loves to eat aluminium so don't mix it in aluminium pots:lolb:
I used this method a few times with drill bits and end mills due to the same problem.
Pete
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 07, 2016, 11:10:28 AM
Thanks Pete! Good to know.
It may be a while before I get to it...if I remember, I'll post results.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 07, 2016, 12:28:08 PM
Just remember to use gloves and goggles too...lye will eat more than just aluminum!

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on April 07, 2016, 01:39:03 PM

Probably too many rpms. I tend to feed slow. But to be honest, I don't really know what 'slow' is in this world. Still learning.


Here you are Zee one I took a few days ago, you can see how fast I am cranking about 3/4 through

AXk2zimLC2c
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: PStechPaul on April 07, 2016, 10:10:40 PM
Looks like about 1 turn per second. So for 0.100" / turn that is 6 IPM. My mill is 0.167" / turn so I might use 2 seconds per turn.

Here is a pretty good speed and feed rate calculator:
http://www.custompartnet.com/calculator/milling-speed-and-feed

For a 1/2" 4 flute mill, 0.002" per tooth, or 0.008" / rev, 100 SFM gives 764 RPM spindle speed, and that is about 6 IPM. That seems comfortable to me, but some charts recommend 250-350 SFM for aluminum. The calculators and charts do not seem to have depth of cut (DOC) as a variable, and I think that depends on machine power and cooling/lubrication. This would result in cubic inches per minute, which may be most important when considering time required to machine a particular feature.

Probably most machinists ultimately use the senses of feel, sound, smell, and appearance (especially chip formation) to determine optimum speed, feed, and DOC. I usually err or the low side, as I enjoy the process and I have no time limitations, but sometimes going faster makes a better finish. I've played around with scrap material to see the results and gain experience.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 07, 2016, 10:40:31 PM
Probably most machinists ultimately use the senses of feel, sound, smell, and appearance (especially chip formation) to determine optimum speed, feed, and DOC.

Yes. So it's about building experience. Slowly but surely I am.

Jason...your feed rate looks like about what I do. What was the rpm of the cutter? And thanks very much for the video.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 07, 2016, 11:07:10 PM
A start on the piston arms...

Squared up some blanks and drilled the holes. Bored the bigger one.
And darn it. I'd cut off some 1/2" stainless to use as a plug/measure. It wouldn't fit. Without moving the boring bar I just took another pass. Now the plug has a bit of play. Ah well. Should've known. Should still be okay.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/PistonArm1_zpsxlzvfflv.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/PistonArm1_zpsxlzvfflv.jpg.html)

Then did some milling with them sandwiched together...

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/PistonArm2_zpsm8zotv47.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/PistonArm2_zpsm8zotv47.jpg.html)

After milling. I'm keeping the rounding of the big round end as last so I have something to hold onto for the other operations.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/PistonArm3_zpslr9akety.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/PistonArm3_zpslr9akety.jpg.html)

Milled the sides using a 1/4" end-mill. At this point I have to stop. The end mill I have is too short to do the other sides.
I'm thinking of doing them with a ball-end. Said ball-end having been ruined until I do Pete's idea.
I ordered one (not that I won't do Pete's idea anyway) as I needed to order an 1/8" end mill and some loctite.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/PistonArm4_zpsjc7af1la.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/PistonArm4_zpsjc7af1la.jpg.html)

That's all folks.

Just noticed that funny wire looking thing going across the picture. It's the nozzle of a WD-40 can.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: philjoe5 on April 08, 2016, 12:04:03 AM
Nice work.  Looks like a snowstorm of chips you made there :ThumbsUp:

Cheers,
Phil
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on April 08, 2016, 12:14:08 AM
Oh! Do we have photos?   :lolb: Well looks good so far Zee. I hope you are still eating between these, It only took 23 post to get theses.  :stir: But I am glad to see some buddy........  :ThumbsUp:

 8)
Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on April 08, 2016, 12:18:57 AM
Gee, what's in that new vodka?  We have parts and pictures  :ThumbsUp: :cheers:. By jov,  the boy is on a roll.  I'm with Phil,  looks like the mill needs a beard trim and a haircut  :lolb:. I think that is why guys like Otto,  Max, Yogi,  and several others do such beautiful work;  they can do it without swarf  :lolb: :lolb: Had dinner yet?  8)

Cletus
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 08, 2016, 12:29:28 AM
Thanks guys.

Yes the swarf is pretty bad. I have a terrible habit of not cleaning up. When I do, it seems that the next part just replaces it all.
I'm just not setup to make cleaning easier. I hope to do that when I move into the other part of the basement...or even better...our next house.

Dinner...leftover roast chicken over salad with cucumbers, peppers, sesame seed, and some kind of Asian style dressing. Delicious.
Add to that some home-made french bread and Irish butter.

I could live on just french bread and Irish butter. With something to wash it down of course. But I say that about many of her dishes...and pizza.

Don..23 posts eh? Shall we see who was responsible?  :Lol:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 08, 2016, 12:51:57 AM
Looking good there Zee. Nice finish too. You are really making good progress!!

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: kvom on April 08, 2016, 01:31:54 AM
For side milling as in Jason's video I use the side flutes of one of the many end mills I have with broken end flutes.   :facepalm2:  The side flutes generally last a lot longer.

For aluminum I crank up the RPMs.  Those "needle" swarf bits can really be a problem, more so with steel than aluminum.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 08, 2016, 01:36:51 AM
Looking good there Zee. Nice finish too. You are really making good progress!!
Bill

Hm...one Bill with 4 pictures posted. Which one was worth it?

Those "needle" swarf bits can really be a problem, more so with steel than aluminum.

This was aluminum. And I notice that when I hit the cutter with WD-40...the chips change. More 'needly' as you say.
But what do you mean by 'really a problem'?
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 08, 2016, 01:57:00 AM
Looking good there Zee. Nice finish too. You are really making good progress!!
Bill

Hm...one Bill with 4 pictures posted. Which one was worth it?

Those "needle" swarf bits can really be a problem, more so with steel than aluminum.

This was aluminum. And I notice that when I hit the cutter with WD-40...the chips change. More 'needly' as you say.
But what do you mean by 'really a problem'?

Just wait till you get some of the needly ones, especially in hot steel, sticking through your shirt sleeve (or worse). They hurt, hard to pull out!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 08, 2016, 02:01:12 AM
They all were Zee, but I don't wish to appear totally imbecillic  ;D

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on April 08, 2016, 07:47:41 AM
Zee Not sure of speed as I just turn the knob to what seems to work right.

Needles stick into things like your fingers need we say more. Digital callipers make good tweezers for pulling them out.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 08, 2016, 11:30:14 AM
Oh I know about needles.

I got those tweezers Bill had recommended and they are great.

And remember when I got a bit of brass stuck?
Took a long time to work out and heal.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Spinster/finger_zpsbb1b4e7d.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Spinster/finger_zpsbb1b4e7d.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 14, 2016, 10:19:10 PM
Hoping to have some good machining time this weekend.

Couple of things I've come to realize...

One problem I've had is boring a hole and trying to fit a shaft. Too tight so another pass without really changing anything and now too loose.
I think part of the issue is not taking care of burrs before trying the shaft. I thought I had by using a countersink to chamfer the edge but it dawned on me today that all I was doing was pushing metal into the bore...that is, removing one set of burs and replacing with another.

Second problem...I'm not doing this right. Holes that take shafts or rotating parts ought to be reamed, no? My reamers are too long for the mill so I've just been drilling. I should take the extra time and use the 4-jaw on the lathe.

Don't know if that will help anyone.

Ah well...whether this engine runs well or at all, I still feel I'm learning and improving my skill.
A key thing as it keeps me going and I know I'll produce a masterpiece someday. A masterpiece!  :lolb:

A masterpiece in my world.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: joe d on April 14, 2016, 11:27:23 PM

One problem I've had is boring a hole and trying to fit a shaft. Too tight so another pass without really changing anything and now too loose.


Been there, used up the T shirt as a shop rag.....

Try doing a couple of spring passes with the boring tool (ie don't change any settings) when you are really sure that it is still under -sized... then test for fit, if still no go, take off less than you think is necessary and repeat...

A small chamfer on the end of the test piece of shaft might help too.

So.... what's for supper?

Joe
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 14, 2016, 11:46:27 PM
After seeing that finger picture who wants supper....ouch!!

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 15, 2016, 12:13:00 AM
So.... what's for supper?

 :lolb:

I am going to be a very bad boy this weekend. T is on a business trip.
She will be so upset if she knew (she does in her heart but doesn't want to believe) but...

Tonight... chicken cheesesteak and a side order of fries delivered by my favorite pizza joint.  :pinkelephant:
Tomorrow...hot pepper pizza from the same place.  :pinkelephant:
The next night...Elios pizza (really bad but really good).  :pinkelephant:
Got some rocky road ice cream.  :pinkelephant:
Got some spicy nacho chips.  :pinkelephant:

Oh boy!

The bigger issue is not getting into her special wine. Problem is...I don't which it is.  :paranoia:

If I survive this debauchery...T is going to kill me anyway.
I don't think taking care of her plants while she is gone will save me.

All is well if I'm posting on Tuesday.  ;D

No need for suggestions as to how to assuage her feelings. 40 years have told me just to take my licking.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 15, 2016, 12:25:59 AM
You are entitled to a few guilty pleasures Zee. Just don't advertise it !!

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 15, 2016, 12:50:10 AM
You are entitled to a few guilty pleasures Zee. Just don't advertise it !!

I can trust you all...can't I? Bill? Bill? I can, can't I? Bill?

Hm...maybe not. There is one fellow I'm really not sure about. Goes by E but sometimes C.  :lolb:

Truth be told. She'll come home..ask me what I ate...and as usual, I will confess.
But only because she deserves the truth.

Not you lot.  :lolb:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on April 15, 2016, 01:01:51 AM
There you go again on the food binge,  :ShakeHead: man someone has to tell that women what you been up to while she's gone....... :rant:  Do you need someone to help you eat all that food I am available...... :lolb:

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 15, 2016, 01:15:02 AM
Well you can trust me...not sure about E and now D too  :paranoia:. But too late now, your plans are already exposed!

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on April 15, 2016, 01:32:58 AM
Enjoy your weekend my friend!

Sounds like some pretty good eats; no mention of what to wash it all down with? Stay out of the wine!

So if you are all alone we can expect some nice shop progress reports?

Dave
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 15, 2016, 01:51:46 AM
man someone has to tell that women what you been up to while she's gone....... :rant:  Do you need someone to help you eat all that food I am available......

If you tell on me...I will tell on you. Even if I have to make up stories.  :Lol:
And I probably don't have to.

Well you can trust me...not sure about E and now D too

Really? I'm thinking you're between B and E...inclusive. And I do allow for wrap-around.

Sounds like some pretty good eats; no mention of what to wash it all down with? Stay out of the wine!

So if you are all alone we can expect some nice shop progress reports?

Stinking hoppies. I'm trying to stay away from (her) wine. I mean, there's taking chances...and then there's crossing into the "you're dead" zone.

Yeah. I have hopes this weekend for shop time. but I already got two calls from the kids tonight.  :-\
I love my kids...but....
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 15, 2016, 09:22:39 PM
Some progress today. I took the day off since T is out of town and I'd get some good shop time.
No hangover from the single-man party last night.

Made the rocker shafts and all the bearings. I'm fairly happy with the bearings. Things are tight but not overly tight.
Also finished the piston rod links. I made up buttons to file the ends round.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/Parts_0415_zpsx58f87mw.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/Parts_0415_zpsx58f87mw.jpg.html)

And a shot with parts in place. You'll also notice one of the spacers in place on the right side.
At the bottom of the picture is the start on some more parts.

Long way to go yet.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/Assembly_0415_zpsdgqwaebw.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/Assembly_0415_zpsdgqwaebw.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 15, 2016, 10:32:16 PM
Good to see you back in the shop, parts are looking good!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on April 15, 2016, 10:35:31 PM
Looking good Zee, you should get some good progress now that T is gone........ :ThumbsUp:

 8)
Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 15, 2016, 10:41:35 PM
That is some nice progress Zee. Here's to a long productive weekend!!

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 15, 2016, 11:07:23 PM
Thanks guys. Much appreciated.

4 bearings, 2 shafts, and rounding of links. Took most of the day. I don't know if that's real progress or not.
I think about Chris's Monitor and now his Corliss. I suspect he doesn't sleep and uses cookies like speed.  :lolb:

But it was a good day. Almost every operation is a learning for me. Which is fine. It's more about that than the parts at this point in my hobby.

Got a question...as is usual...the last operation or last part is always when things go awry...I had issues with the last bearing.
I center drilled and then drilled with increasing step changes in drill size (about every second drill size).
But on the last bearing...I had one drill bit stall the lathe. Several times. It was just two sizes bigger than the previous.
It was so bad I eventually went back a size and went at it again. But a later drill bit size did the same thing.
Any thoughts on that? The previous 3 bearings went just fine.

Actually have another question. After drilling I went to the reamer. But gee whiz, as the reamer comes into the part it really messes up the edge of the hole as it tries to center into the hole. Squealing too. Is this normal? Is it crap tools or crap operator?

But this is what I mean about learning and experience. Each time I get better...but once in a while (like here) I have a setback.

Okay...another question. For whatever reason I have the thought that small drills should be run at high speed but as you go to larger drills, a slower speed is called for. Is that right? It sure seems that if I run at slower speeds I tend to have more stalls.

I ought to come and live with a couple of you guys for a while and watch you work...er...play.
Nah. Can't afford the cost. Cookies, crawdads, shrimp...the beer alone would bust my wallet.  :lolb:

Pizza tonight. Hot pepper. With some hot red pepper added. Wonder if T would really be upset if I grabbed wine.
If you don't hear from me on Tuesday...she was.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 15, 2016, 11:28:35 PM
Zee, I definitely sleep. Quite well. Zero stress. And lots of time for the shop. Why? Retired!! Hope you can try it some day!  :P While you were at work today I alternated time in the shop with time outside reading and napping in the sun.  Very nice day!

For the reamer, I get same chatter and squeal, have learned to advanced it so it is just touching the hole, then turn on the power as I advance it into the hole. No chatter that way, well maybe for a turn. Same on withdrawal, turn off the power before it is all the way out of the hole. And make sure to give it some oil before starting too.

On the drill that grabbed, check tip for material galled on. Or any dulling of the lead edge. Once it grabbs, you have a drill shaped big chip at the bottom of the hole, need to advance very slow till you cut that ragged part out.

Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 15, 2016, 11:37:20 PM
For the reamer, I get same chatter and squeal, have learned to advanced it so it is just touching the hole, then turn on the power as I advance it into the hole. No chatter that way, well maybe for a turn. Same on withdrawal, turn off the power before it is all the way out of the hole. And make sure to give it some oil before starting too.

On the drill that grabbed, check tip for material galled on. Or any dulling of the lead edge. Once it grabbs, you have a drill shaped big chip at the bottom of the hole, need to advance very slow till you cut that ragged part out.

Interesting. I did figure out turning off power when withdrawing the reamer. I'll have to try the idea of having it 'in' the hole when advancing. As for oil...this was brass bearing. I though we don't use lubricant on brass?

As for the drill bit...yes...post-mortem showed some brass stuck on the tip. I should have check for that after the first stall.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 15, 2016, 11:50:52 PM
Normally I don't bother with oil on 360 brass for turning or drilling. I do use it for reaming and when tapping smaller sizes, 3-48 and below. And backing out to clear chips often is important. Usually with drilling you can see if the chips are flowing out of the hole well. If that stops or the sound changes, back out and clear chips, sometimes they jam in the flutes partway up the hole, sometimes they stick at the tip, especially on smaller drills. Sound and feel tells you a lot about what the tip of the tool is doing.

Hear the drill, be the drill... Woowoo machining!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 15, 2016, 11:52:53 PM
Zee, generally reamers should go in and come out under power. They should be withdrawn at a faster rate though. The key is to minimize contact with the metal once the reader has done its job going in. It is the rubbing that dulls them. I do agree though as to starting it in the hole before turning the power on. Just barely I mean.

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 15, 2016, 11:54:19 PM
I like that Chris...." Be the drill"  :)

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 16, 2016, 12:02:24 AM
Chris...I hear you.  :Lol:
What got me is that I was barely moving in...I mean slowly...and then stall. I should have checked the drill after the first time.
And yes...with the first drill...I was watching the chips and anytime things got 'different' I pulled out, let the chips clear and went back in.
Had no problem with that. It was later as I was stepping up in drill sizes.

Bill...I was wondering about that. I was coming out under power...and generally faster. Don't know why...just seemed the thing to do.
Does the same hold true for drills? I'd tried stopping the lathe and pulling out but usually found problems with that.

On a completely different note...haven't heard much from a few folks (I don't mean my thread...I have no expectations there. Just generally).

Marv? You around?
Arnold? Still busy?
Jo? Is it gardening time?
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 16, 2016, 12:18:41 AM
I usually do the same with drills...in and out under power. Drills are more forgiving and less expensive. Due to their greater accuracy, reamers have little if any clearance ( by design) so once their job is done, get them out of the hole before they heat up. And DON'T let your mind go astray on that last statement  :lolb:

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 16, 2016, 01:22:24 AM
And DON'T let your mind go astray on that last statement  :lolb:

Sure. I see. You're one of those people who have no problem asking for the impossible.

I went astray when I joined this forum.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: bruedney on April 16, 2016, 05:42:47 AM
Nice one Zee.

I have a lot of catching up to do now.  :facepalm:

Unfortunately I have to be away for work for a few nights next week, we have people coming round for dinner tonight (rosemary and garlis chicken - YUM) and have to go out to a function tomorrow so not a lot of workshop time this coming week.

I am also awaiting the arrival of my new face mill to allow the bits from my scarp bin to be easily resized.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Jo on April 16, 2016, 08:11:04 AM
On a completely different note...haven't heard much from a few folks (I don't mean my thread...I have no expectations there. Just generally).

Marv? You around?
Arnold? Still busy?
Jo? Is it gardening time?

I'm still here feeling rather worn down. Yes a bit of gardening might be a good idea. Or a bit of private swarf making without the

Jo
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Nick_G on April 16, 2016, 10:41:46 AM
.
Impressed.!!! ................. Very.  :)

Nick
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Jim Nic on April 16, 2016, 10:54:30 AM
Zee
With regard to drills stalling your machine, I find that drills need to work to work if you see what I mean.  It is certainly good practice to creep up on a large size hole but not in too many steps.  For instance to get to a 1/2 inch hole I would use just 3 drills then the reamer. 
Reamers should always be turning on the way in and on the way out or you risk breaking a land.  What speed are you using to ream?  I have seen advice on a modelling forum that reamers should be run at the same speed as the drill that bored the hole but I recall from my training days (50 years ago) that reamers are best run slow so I run them at about 200 RPM with a little lube appropriate to the base material and give them some work to do (about 15 thou or so) to avoid them just rubbing the workpiece.
I have little technical justification for the above but it all works for me.  I have no doubt others may have different views and practices that work equally well for them.  As I'm sure we know, there are as many ways of tackling a job as there are people you ask how to do it.
Jim
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 16, 2016, 12:52:01 PM
Thanks Bruce. Garlic chicken! Good for the soul and health.
Jo...get rested up!
Thanks Nick.

Jim, I think I see your point. I was creeping up in 1/32 steps. As for the reamer, spindle was running both in and out. Came out faster than in but perhaps not fast enough? I ream at a much slower speed than drill but don't know actual speed. Not much more than slowest possible without stalling. I've had problems reaming faster. I drill to 1/64 (15 thou) of hole and then ream.

The biggest problem I have with reaming is all the chattering around as the reamer comes in. Chris and Bill have given some advice on how to improve that.

Thanks again everyone.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: sshire on April 16, 2016, 02:17:37 PM
Zee
MrPete has a good video on reaming and reamers. That's where I learned. I think I read somewhere that reaming speed is ½ drilling speed.
Another vote here for retirement.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: sshire on April 16, 2016, 02:20:00 PM
Zee
I just looked to make sure my memory was still functional. Mr Pete actually has three videos on reaming and reamers.
First is here
XEltyxuYUeU
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on April 16, 2016, 04:56:36 PM
I just wished all you a holes would quit bringing up retirement;  to those of us who are so close we can taste it,  you're spoiling the taste  :Jester: :lolb: :mischief: :Mad:. I've heard raw animal fat is a great lube for brass and bronze,  perhaps some dribbling off the fingers from all that "T" forbidden food will quiet the squeal . I started to harass you yesterday,  but,  I thought I'd let the kids do that  :stir:. You are having them all over for dinner tonight aren't you?   :stir: :mischief: :lolb:

Cletus
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 16, 2016, 05:36:38 PM
Thanks Stan. I really need to do more looking around at videos. Takes time and the only time I have is watching TV with T.
But she gets upset with me because I'm not paying attention. All while SHE is playing games on her iPad.  :lolb: Maybe it's the earplugs.

Eric...Wouldn't you know it? I thought I was free. But now I have to go over to daughter's house and take care of cat.
Not just the kids though. Been dealing with phone calls much of today. Father-in-law let his lawn tractor roll over him and break some ribs.
He won't go to the hospital! Both lucky and foolish.

Eating alone tonight.  :naughty:

So you've 'heard' raw animal fat is a great lube. 'heard' eh? Let me know how it goes when 'you' try it.  :lolb:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 16, 2016, 07:03:13 PM
Rats. Busted my 1/8" end mill.  :'(
Feed was too fast.

Time to go take care of daughter's cat.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 16, 2016, 07:46:08 PM
Rats. Busted my 1/8" end mill.  :'(
Feed was too fast.

Time to go take care of daughter's cat.

No, not THAT kind of animal fat!  Wait, the dog just said YES!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on April 16, 2016, 08:00:06 PM
Rats. Busted my 1/8" end mill.  :'(
Feed was too fast.

Time to go take care of daughter's cat.
That's what you get for eating good will T's away.......... :lolb:

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 16, 2016, 08:16:18 PM
Chris...cat is too lean anyway. Better for other projects.

That's what you get for eating good will T's away..........

Yes. Divine compensation.  >:(

Now you have me worried. I wouldn't be surprised the oven quits just as I prepare tonight's 'good' eating.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 17, 2016, 08:42:28 PM
Well not as much progress as I'd hoped.
Yesterday saw some work on a couple of arms but breaking the 1/8" end mill kind of took some wind out of the sail.
Can't proceed with the arms until I get another 1/8 end mill although I'm considering getting an 1/8" slitting saw instead.
Probably get both. The next step after this would be rounding the big ends on the rotary table which is why I have to wait.
Once I do the rounding I won't have any straight edges left to hold onto.

Today I worked the steam chest covers. I'll have to get or make up some 3-48 bolts for them.
I also did the exhaust glands. Not sure I'll do much more today. I need to take some time and cover my tracks before T gets home tomorrow.  :Lol:

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/Covers_0417_zpsizprkkix.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/Covers_0417_zpsizprkkix.jpg.html)

I may end up buying nuts and some bolts to make studs out of. There's so many and so much work yet to do.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 17, 2016, 11:00:24 PM
Bummer on the end mill Zee, but just a slight delay till you can order a new one. The parts are looking great though. Enjoy your last night or two of eating what you wish :)

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 18, 2016, 03:37:05 AM
While waiting for the new end mill, just take inspiration from Willy and file everything to shape!

No, my hands won't let me do thast either,..!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: PStechPaul on April 18, 2016, 06:35:21 AM
Now you see why there are double-ended mills. Usually only a dollar or two more than the single-ended.  :old:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 18, 2016, 11:04:57 AM
Thanks Bill.
Chris...file an 1/8" slot?
Paul...I have double-ended 1/8" end mills but they don't have the reach, or rather, length of cut.

I've been considering Jason's suggestion to mill from both sides. But as he said, the vice has to be truly true.
Maybe that's where a bit of filing comes in.  ;D
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 18, 2016, 02:03:58 PM
Thanks Bill.
Chris...file an 1/8" slot?
Paul...I have double-ended 1/8" end mills but they don't have the reach, or rather, length of cut.

I've been considering Jason's suggestion to mill from both sides. But as he said, the vice has to be truly true.
Maybe that's where a bit of filing comes in.  ;D

File 1/8" slot - of course. Thats what they make needle file sets for, I file small slots all the time.

http://www.amazon.com/TEKTON-6655-Needle-File-10-Piece/dp/B000NPUKYS
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 18, 2016, 02:11:43 PM
You're talking about cleaning up a slot, right?
Not using a file to cut (file) a slot 3/4" long and 1/2" deep?

I have a couple of sets of small files. I like them.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 18, 2016, 02:29:35 PM
You're talking about cleaning up a slot, right?
Not using a file to cut (file) a slot 3/4" long and 1/2" deep?

I have a couple of sets of small files. I like them.
For a long one like that, make cut with hacksaw and clean up with the files. I like using a fine jewelers saw to cut down each side of a narrow slot an across bottom then use files to clean it up.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: bruedney on April 19, 2016, 11:08:41 AM
Hey Carl

Can you please provide me with some details on the slitting saws you use and also what sort of rpm you use them at?

Thanks
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 19, 2016, 01:01:35 PM
Hi Bruce,

All I have are some cheap 3" saws. 1/32, a couple of 1/16, and a 3/32. I think I got 3 of them as a set from LMS. The other 1/16 could have been Enco or Grizzly.

They are too small in diameter for some of the slots.

And while I could make multiple passes for 'wide' slots, I'd like to get a 1/8" (although some slots would still need multiple passes). I've only used the slitting saw to split bearings, cut off parts, make screw slots, or in one case make the 'slide?' on the horizontal mill.

I like them but they scare me. And there was the case where I had the saw upside down  :Lol: Wear good protection. I saw a picture once of someones saw that broke apart. Not pretty.

As for revs...I don't have an rpm indicator but it's fairly slow. Seems easy enough to 'hear' when it's right. Slightly over stall speed if that makes sense.
If parting off, drop the speed as you get close to finishing so the part doesn't fly away.

Keep in mind I'm new at this (on the forum a long time but few parts under my belt).
Any advice and thoughts from others are always welcome.

Apologies if I've said anything you already know (which is likely).
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: sshire on April 19, 2016, 02:14:23 PM
I was roughly calculating the speeds and feeds for the .125 slot in part 28 (steam chest outrigger.)
I have a 5" .125 thickness slitting saw. Been getting my slitting saws directly from Malco Saw in Rhode Island. Cheaper than the usual suspects (Enco, MSC, Etc)

Using 80 SFM with the mild steel, the rpm is 60.
The saw is a 40 tooth and I'm calculating with a chip load of .002 per tooth. Works out to approx. 4.9 ipm. I generally pay no attention to the ipm and go by feel on the hand wheel. Malco recommended flood coolant. Since I don't have that, I just crank up the flow rate on the Micro drop. A squeeze bottle would work just as well.

If I'm completely wrong, please correct me.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: 10KPete on April 19, 2016, 03:08:37 PM
Thanks for the tip on Malco, Stan. Looks like a much better source than others.

Pete
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: bruedney on April 19, 2016, 08:01:36 PM
Thanks Carl

I was spinning mine way too fast in that case

I need to get some coarser and thicker ones too.

Are you going to split the rear bearing or just the housing?

Regards
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 19, 2016, 08:19:22 PM
Are you going to split the rear bearing or just the housing?

Aw crap! I hadn't noticed the rear bearing was split too. I'd only done the housing.
Hm. Gotta think on this. Double hm. I don't know how to go about it.

I still don't know.  :help:

How? Why is it split? How necessary is it?
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 19, 2016, 09:02:36 PM
Are you going to split the rear bearing or just the housing?

Aw crap! I hadn't noticed the rear bearing was split too. I'd only done the housing.
Hm. Gotta think on this. Double hm. I don't know how to go about it.

I still don't know.  :help:

How? Why is it split? How necessary is it?

Is it split all the way through or just along one edge?
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: bruedney on April 19, 2016, 09:55:14 PM
Are you going to split the rear bearing or just the housing?

Aw crap! I hadn't noticed the rear bearing was split too. I'd only done the housing.
Hm. Gotta think on this. Double hm. I don't know how to go about it.

I still don't know.  :help:

How? Why is it split? How necessary is it?

Is it split all the way through or just along one edge?

 :lolb: I am thinking it doesn't need to be split. Not sure the housing does either.

I was thinking of a press or loctite fit would suffice.

One advantage to spliting the housing is I might have the stock in my box of bits to make the separate items but I would have to purchase stock to make the complete housings.

Cheers

Bruce
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 19, 2016, 09:58:50 PM
I'm with you on that Bruce.

But I'd still like to know how it would be done...and why. Hopefully someone will pop in.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: bruedney on April 19, 2016, 10:07:59 PM
I was thinking of slitting an oversized piece of bronze and then soft soldering the pieces back together.

Then set it up in the 4 jaw and turn and bore to the required size and then separate.

Seem like a lot of work for no apparent need.

I think I will be trying the non split bearing first but it won't be until the weekend as I have to travel to Auckland for the rest of the week.  :ShakeHead: Work just gets in the way of machine time  :rant:

Cheers
Bruce
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: kvom on April 19, 2016, 10:16:26 PM
WRT small end mills, I almost always get the double ended ones below 1/4", unless I need a long flute.  Each end tends to have a short life.   :'(
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 20, 2016, 03:08:43 PM
I was thinking of slitting an oversized piece of bronze and then soft soldering the pieces back together.
Then set it up in the 4 jaw and turn and bore to the required size and then separate.

Thanks. I see what you're saying.

I was giving it more thought this morning and the thing that troubles me is the lower half of the split bearing. Unless it's 'glued' in, there seems nothing to keep it in place. Now I don't know much about the old days...but they didn't have Loctite or something similar did they? Although I'm sure they wouldn't have built it that way in the first place. Probably had a 'collar' i.e. where the very ends have a larger diameter allowing the housing to capture it.

I'm still curious as to why the bearing is split in the first place. And, why all the way through rather than just one side.

Have a good trip.

kvom...yes it's about having a longer flute. I have a set of double-ended miniature end mills.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 20, 2016, 03:25:27 PM
Typically the bearing would have a lip on either end to keep it from sliding out the side. If you go check steamguywillys current build, the bearings there had a hex shape or tabs to keep them from turning. The shape in models may well be simplified from the original.

As for why - if the bearing is two halves that don't quite meet, the outer shell could be tightened up to react to wear in the bearing over time. Also, allows for assembly of a crankshaft with multiple webs, where you can't slide it in from the end.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 20, 2016, 03:34:24 PM
Thanks Chris.

Good to know I wasn't far off with the 'lip' idea.

I hadn't thought about the wear issue. Not a problem here. Won't be run long enough. There's more engines to build!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Jasonb on April 20, 2016, 05:28:58 PM
Zee the bearings were split for a couple of reasons.

1. It would allow a whole crankshaft complete with eccentrics, flywheel etc to be removed as a complete item rather than stripping each bit off sol it could be slid out. Or on something like Jo's tripple the middle bearings sits between two cranks so can't be slid on and has to be in two parts

2. If wear takes place a little material can be removed from the mating faces and the bearing closed up and scraped to fit again rather than have to make a complete new bearing. This is why bearing caps are often seen with nuts and locknuts as they are just tightened to give the correct running clearance and can be tightened further if needed.

Regarding location, a lip on both sides is common practice. Also to stop bearings rotating in the housing a small pin is let into the base of the housing and the bearing has a matching hole to slip over it.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Hit%20n%20Miss/Half%20Scale%20Gade/HPIM1389_zpsakb0rorw.jpg)

Best way to make them is soft solder two bits of bronze together, turn & bore then melt them apart
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 20, 2016, 07:03:36 PM
Thanks Jason. That helped a lot.

So on this model, if the bearing is to be split, it would be good to either make the bearing with a lip, or provide for a pin.

I will wait to see how things go together. At this point I can't imagine it matters.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 20, 2016, 07:21:13 PM
A little progress...

To do the steam chest glands I made up a fixture with a 5/16 threaded hole. After turning and threading the gland, I inserted into the fixture to turn the other end. Cut the fixture off and took it to the mill to drill the four holes. A couple of boo-boos. First gland didn't seat all the way into the fixture. I realized I needed to either cut a relief at the back of the thread in the gland or in the fixture. I did it to the fixture. 2nd boo-boo, when I started drilling the holes, the gland slipped a tad on the first hole. Made sure things were tight enough and had no more issues.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/04_20_GlandFixture_zps7ngirdkg.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/04_20_GlandFixture_zps7ngirdkg.jpg.html)

Here are the steam chest glands in their cover. (I don't have any 3-48 bolts yet.)
I also made the bearings (bushing?) for the piston rod links.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/04_20_LinkBearings_zpshqr8dqft.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/04_20_LinkBearings_zpshqr8dqft.jpg.html)

Then pressed them into the links. I don't have an arbor so I used some spare plate and my bench vise. Seems like it went pretty well. I've had problems pressing before. Didn't take a lot of power but I haven't measured the holes to see if they got crushed.

You can see the fixture I'd made to make the steam chest glands. Which reminds me of the 3rd boo-boo. It was too short but I set it up on some parallels and things went well.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/04_20_LinkBearings_zpshqr8dqft.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/04_20_LinkBearings_zpshqr8dqft.jpg.html)

Then I made the gland nuts for the steam chest and exhaust glands. Nothing special there other than I was somewhat pleased to see some improvement in my skills. Still a ways to go though.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/04_20_GlandNuts_zpslbk9tj1e.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/04_20_GlandNuts_zpslbk9tj1e.jpg.html)

T made supper last night. Just traditional steak, potato steak fries, salad, and red wine.
She didn't grill me regarding my culinary debauchery while she was gone. Guess she figures there's no point.
Sure was nice to have her home.

I need to see when her next trip is.  :Lol:

Still under the weather. Off to bed.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on April 20, 2016, 07:31:57 PM
Gee, nice parts and pics  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:  But, here's the deal Phil; you're making parts, eating steak and steak fries, and drinking wine, and then you say you are still sicky and taking a nap, I thinks you is trying to shirt us  :lolb: I think you may be the true Ferris Bueller of the forum  :lolb: :lolb: :lolb:

Cletus
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: bruedney on April 20, 2016, 08:40:43 PM
Nice Carl

I am going to have to pull finger out to try to catch you.

Regarding the bearings - doesn't the cap and bearing have a lubricator screwed into them? Then will hold the bearing in position.

Cheers
Bruce
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 20, 2016, 08:54:50 PM
But, here's the deal Phil; you're making parts, eating steak and steak fries, and drinking wine, and then you say you are still sicky and taking a nap, I thinks you is trying to shirt us

It's one of those hack your lungs out every 15 minutes. I don't feel particularly bad. Just real tired and bummed from coughing and lack of sleep. Today has been good improvement. Hacking every 30 minutes...maybe 45.

Regarding the bearings - doesn't the cap and bearing have a lubricator screwed into them? Then will hold the bearing in position.

Yes. But if the rear bearing is split, the lubricator only holds the top half of the bearing. The lower half would still be 'floating'. There would be some easy ways to take care of it (as Jason mentioned with a pin).
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on April 20, 2016, 09:30:16 PM
OK, so we know a bit of machining is going on, and rather wonderful it is in all, but the steak and the steak fries? Really ... you know the rules ... no pics, it didn't happen (can't find the proper smiley).

I think the forum should approach a TV company ... "Iron Chef's Of The World and Model Engineering" . The "chef's have to create a weekly dining masterpiece, and beside their cooker they have a small machine shop where they have 6 weeks to turn out a metal masterpiece.

Methinks it would be a hit! Oh Ya ... the prize ... 1 week in Jo's garden, to sort out what she doesn't have time for, and the winner would get to fondle all the machines and the casting kits.

Just Sayin

Tom
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 20, 2016, 10:32:48 PM
OK, so we know a bit of machining is going on, and rather wonderful it is in all, but the steak and the steak fries? Really ... you know the rules ... no pics, it didn't happen (can't find the proper smiley).
I think the forum should approach a TV company ... "Iron Chef's Of The World and Model Engineering" . The "chef's have to create a weekly dining masterpiece, and beside their cooker they have a small machine shop where they have 6 weeks to turn out a metal masterpiece.
Methinks it would be a hit! Oh Ya ... the prize ... 1 week in Jo's garden, to sort out what she doesn't have time for, and the winner would get to fondle all the machines and the casting kits.

I like it. But 6 weeks to turn out a metal masterpiece dooms me. I'm lucky to hit a part a week.

Slight change in title..."Iron Chef's of the Model Engineering World". Hope you don't mind.

I especially like the prize. Now we're talking motivation.  :naughty:

Slight change in prize...'all oil included'.  :lolb:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on April 20, 2016, 10:38:06 PM
All changes duly recorded and accepted! Particularly the "The all oils included" part.

Tom
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: philjoe5 on April 21, 2016, 01:22:27 AM
Good progress being made here.  I'll be interested in how the bearings stood up to the press fit.  They look mighty fra-jill-ee :Lol:

3-48 bolts, seriously?  They're on my Little Machine Shop Threading chart, but I'll be darned if I ever saw any at my usual haunts.  I haven't spent much time in the section of my drill index where the #47 pilot drill lives.  If I saw that on a set of plans, I'd tell myself that a 2x scale build would be perfect :ROFL:

Cheers,
Phil
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 21, 2016, 01:37:07 AM
If I saw that on a set of plans, I'd tell myself that a 2x scale build would be perfect :ROFL:

Thanks Phil. 2x scale? You mean twice the size? Man...that would be over 29" long.

I think a number of bolts could have been replaced with other sizes. I think I did one. I might have gone 4-40 on this. But I don't have enough experience to know what the nut size would do. Not a problem. I have the die to make a 3-48 bolt.

I think I do. Guess I'd better check.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 21, 2016, 01:42:51 AM
I usually go no smaller than 2-56, once in a while 1-72. I think that's about as big as George goes on his tiny engines! After a while with the smaller threads, bolts on the car seem like monsters.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 21, 2016, 02:07:01 AM
I did a lot of 2-56 on Spinster. I just thought it odd that these bolts are the only 3-48 on the model. I'm not concerned.

On another note...poo...I took the slitting saw to one of the parts to make a slot. Operation went well. The link fits nicely. But gosh darn it...the slot is off center. I check and check on those things because I've always struggled with the mill's z-azis and finding 'center'. Looks like I'm off by 1/32. Which would make sense that it's a 'magic' number.

Ah well...it doesn't look good but shouldn't be a problem. Maybe when I do the next identical part I'll see where I went wrong.

Pics when I get the other one done. It's somewhat embarrassing though. Not the order of operations one should have taken.

Hacking less. Which means I'm going to work tomorrow.  :(

Tonight was some kind of egg dish. A quiche you might call it. Filled with cauliflower, broccoli, and red pepper. Delicious.
But not filling.  :( Must find additional sustenance.

I like a good quiche. Get over it.  :ROFL:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on April 21, 2016, 02:24:05 AM
I can tolerate the the Broccoli but the Cauliflower defiantly is not going to happen.

Touch off the bottom of your cutter on your work piece; then drop 1/2 the cutter thickness and then 1/2 the diameter of your part. But you knew this, right? 1/32"is a big number, maybe you were busy coughing up a lung.  :lolb:

I wish you were going to be at the show this weekend.

Dave
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on April 21, 2016, 02:28:41 AM
...
 Must find additional sustenance.
...

Just need some mint chocolate chip cookies!!   :stickpoke:

Or you are in withdrawal from those smelly rabbit drinks!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 21, 2016, 03:38:31 AM
I can tolerate the the Broccoli but the Cauliflower defiantly is not going to happen.
Touch off the bottom of your cutter on your work piece; then drop 1/2 the cutter thickness and then 1/2 the diameter of your part. But you knew this, right? 1/32"is a big number, maybe you were busy coughing up a lung.  :lolb:
I wish you were going to be at the show this weekend.

One thing I miss is cauliflower covered in Velvetta cheese. But she will never make that. She has a thing about processed cheese (if you can even call it that.)

Hm...what was supposed to happen...I touched off the bottom of the cutter to the part. Went down the thickness of the cutter, then went down the width of the part minus the slot width divided by two. Should still be right. I must have used the wrong number somewhere. (Obviously.)

Yeah. Wish I could be at the show too. Would be nice to see some of you all face-to-face. I'm thinking I can't wait for retirement. I'm going to have to figure a way there next year.

Chris..."smelly rabbit drinks"? You may be crossing the line there. Remember, I'll probably be going by Rochester again. I will have to look you up and 'educate you' as some say back home.

Hack rate has slowed down. Once every 45 minutes. That gives me a nap in between.  ;D
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: joe d on April 21, 2016, 12:45:32 PM

Hm...what was supposed to happen...I touched off the bottom of the cutter to the part. Went down the thickness of the cutter, then went down the width of the part minus the slot width divided by two. Should still be right. I must have used the wrong number somewhere. (Obviously.)


Hi Zee.... That might be the trouble here... should go down 1/2 the the thickness of the cutter, no? then drop to the centre- line of cut you wanted...

The Mrs makes cauliflower with cheep-0-crap simulated cheezy stuff on it about 2 a year... it ain't cheese, but I like it :P

Joe
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 21, 2016, 01:35:53 PM
Thanks Joe.

I'm sure there are different ways to arrive at the desired position.
I touched the saw to the top of the part. Now assume I went down the thickness of the saw.
That puts the top of the saw level with the part.
Then just go down (height of part - size of slot) / 2.
i.e. once the saw is level with the part, if the height of the part is 1/2 and the slot is 1/4,
then I would move down (1/2-1/4)/2 = 1/8.
Or from the touch point, 1/8 + thickness of saw. (1/8 + 3/32) or 7/32 (0.21875)
With 60 thou per rev of z knob...would mean 3 revs + 38.75 thou from touch point.

I'm at work but when I get home I want to double check the measurements of the parts and saw blade.
What I expect happened is I lost count and took 2 revs instead of 3.
Easy enough to confirm. I'm sure I took the 38.75 or whatever it was (the part is not exactly 1/2) because I remember seeing the knob when I moved the saw to the next position.

Interruptions are a killer. Phone, wife, kids. The other day I had just set the cutter in the lathe, got interrupted, and forgot I hadn't tightened the tool holder down.
Getting better at it though. Habits are forming.

Your wife is a keeper.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 21, 2016, 01:37:02 PM
I think Joe nailed it Zee...half the thickness of the cutter. As for Velvetta, hardly cheese, but still tasty for sure. I still love that snack thing with a block of Mexican Velvetta mixed with a can of "hot" rotel diced tomatos and peppers. Perfect with pita chips or scoops, even if I can feel the stuff congealing in my arteries on the way down... :lolb:      :ThumbsUp: on the cauliflower too!!

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 21, 2016, 01:47:32 PM
Yes I can see that...if, as he said, you then move to the center-line of the cut.
Makes even more sense if I'm doing a single pass cut. (So I'm glad for the tid-bit of info.)

But I don't see where, this case, my calculation (thought process?) is wrong.
I had to move the saw down for 2 more passes. (1/4 slot with 3/32 blade).
(I actually did 3 passes as I didn't move a full saw blade thickness.)

So my target was to move the top of the blade to the top of the slot. No?
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 21, 2016, 01:53:03 PM
Yeah, your math seems correct the way you did it. I just find it easier to work from the centerline of the part/slot, and then adjust the saw up and down the required distances from that centerline. Numerous was to do it as you correctly say, I just tend to think of it like and edge finder in a way, so once I hear the saw touching the top of the part I move down half the saw thickness, just like moving half the diameter of an edge finder. Then the centerline of the saw is aligned with the edge of the part.

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 21, 2016, 02:04:55 PM
Ah good point Bill. Thanks.
Seems it would help identify I have a problem earlier too with good potential to correct.
With my method...if I'm screwed at the beginning...I'm screwed at the end.

Thank you both, Joe and Bill.  :ThumbsUp:

On a side note...I have some options with the part.
1) Remake it
2) Make the slot wider and put spacers in
3) Do nothing

For now it's #3 until I see how all this goes.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 21, 2016, 05:45:29 PM
Not to beat this to death...

I remember why I'd taken that approach from long ago.
I'd always had trouble raising the mill's head. I was more accurate only going down.

Since then I've had more practice with a dial indicator. Time for that.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 22, 2016, 12:07:45 AM
Anyone know anything about Marv?
I've sent a couple of PMs but haven't received anything.
I see he's on-line but that could be a computer still connected.

I miss his...humor.  ;D
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 22, 2016, 01:24:15 AM
Ah...the dog house. Almost forgot how it felt.
Stinking kids.  :cussing:

You'll recall my culinary debauchery while T was out of town.
Thought I was clear. No questions. No admissions required.

The youngest visits tonight. Wasn't long before, out of the blue, she asks me when the last time it was I had Elios Pizza. Out of the blue!
And so I confess...as I must and cannot avoid. "Last weekend".

Doghouse.

I am out right now...but youngest is still here. Will have to see what happens when she leaves.

If I were smart...I'd stock the doghouse...with...Elios pizza.

But that'd be stupid.

Doghouse is cold.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: PStechPaul on April 22, 2016, 01:37:47 AM
I like a good quiche. Get over it.  :ROFL:

Hmmm... Is that pronounced the French way, or is it like "quicky"? That could also be French, oui?  :naughty:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Alan Haisley on April 22, 2016, 04:34:50 AM
Carl,
All of Joe, Bill, and your math is good - assuming that you want the saw to split the half mark. Your path is different than theirs but you all end up at the finish line together.
Alan
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 01, 2016, 12:04:38 AM
Just a note...we've seen a number of new members join (which I very much welcome and could do a better job of welcoming them)...
But it seems a good time to suggest people update their profiles with their location. Just a country would do.
If that's still too intrusive...a continent perhaps?

I find it so interesting to see where people are from and it helps when questions are asked that people can give more meaningful answers.
This is a global forum (to some extent more than many others) and I like to celebrate the sharing of people around the globe.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 01, 2016, 12:23:16 AM
Zee, I just let in four more, 2 from the US, 1 from the UK, and 1 from the Netherlands. You are right, its been rather busy lately, but that is a good thing for the forum!!

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: sshire on May 01, 2016, 01:29:18 PM
I'm sure that the new members are beginning to suspect that the "M" in "MEM" stands for "Monitor." with the three ongoing builds. Just to confuse them even more, Richie, my UPS guy, delivered some .125 plate which looks suspiciously like Monitor base frames.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 01, 2016, 02:18:34 PM
I'm sure that the new members are beginning to suspect that the "M" in "MEM" stands for "Monitor." with the three ongoing builds. Just to confuse them even more, Richie, my UPS guy, delivered some .125 plate which looks suspiciously like Monitor base frames.

Looking forward to seeing your build Stan.
No fair doing then showing. Hoping for showing while doing.  :Lol:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on May 01, 2016, 02:27:08 PM
We may need a new forum category for Monitor engines!

Will have to do a big family picture of them when all done.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 01, 2016, 03:46:13 PM
That are all looking great too. It's nice to see the different approaches in each build. Stan, I will look forward to yours as well.

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 01, 2016, 07:33:14 PM
This post is titled "How not to machine" subtitled "How to be stupid".  :slap:

I have no excuses. At the time I thought I was going to use a long end-mill to make the slot and while waiting for the end-mill to arrive I did some more machining of the part...making that narrow area.  :ShakeHead:

But I broke the end-mill and decided I'd try using a slitting saw. You already know the mistake.  :facepalm2:

Yes, I was worried about that narrow area. But I thought taking small cuts would get me through.
It didn't. 'Ping' and the end broke off.  :'(

Obviously, I should have waited to do the narrow area. And in thinking about what happened...I think some clamping and a machinist jack would have helped. The part was out sticking in the wind.

The other part shows how I was off when I sawed the first one.

So two bad parts. Worse...the stupidity.

I had considered not embarrassing myself with this admission. But if it helps other newbies...it's a win.

I slink away now.  :embarassed:

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Monitor/BadPart_zpsx996d01i.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Monitor/BadPart_zpsx996d01i.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on May 01, 2016, 07:43:46 PM
Yup, another case of machine the part from the end, working inwards, then cut off from big bar. Everyone has been there (or will be!) at one time or another - part of the learning curve (though it would have been nice to know about all the reverse curves and corkscrews in the learning curve!).   :wallbang:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on May 02, 2016, 04:58:31 AM
Carl, Thanks for posting this. Maybe, hopefully, I'll remember your post when, sometime down the line, I'm about to get myself into the same box!

Jim
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: sshire on May 02, 2016, 12:07:07 PM
Zee
Remind me to show you my box of mismade parts. It is a part of learning to do this stuff.
One of my least favorites is turning the handles , watching the end mill cut and thinking "that doesn't look right" while continuing to turn the handles. My goal is to make fewer mistakes with each engine. Of course I then discover new ways to screw up a part. Unless it's some rare casting, the part can always be remade. Again and again.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on May 02, 2016, 11:57:51 PM
Drats, darn, and aw shoot  :facepalm:. Zee,  if I didn't have a bin full of scrapped parts,  I wouldn't have any stock to keep building with.  Shirt happens  :mischief:

Cletus
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on May 03, 2016, 12:33:40 AM
Aw....bummer buddy, but s@%}}&£ happens buddy and your not the first to do it......... :drinking-41:


  8) Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 03, 2016, 12:46:28 AM
Aw I'm not too bummed. I feel pretty good getting this far without major disasters.
Most importantly, I still feel I'm improving. Without that I'd be done here.

It's a double win really. I learn from it...and hopefully others do too.

Not that I'd admit to all my mistakes. There are some uniquely stupid to me that no one would learn from.  :lolb:

But so far I've avoided those mid-western tombstones that begin with "hey watch me do this!"

Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on May 03, 2016, 01:14:14 AM
But so far I've avoided those mid-western tombstones that begin with "hey watch me do this!"

Or "Look ma, no brain!", " How hard could that be?", "I could jump that!"...  :lolb:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 03, 2016, 01:34:20 AM
But so far I've avoided those mid-western tombstones that begin with "hey watch me do this!"

Or "Look ma, no brain!", " How hard could that be?", "I could jump that!"...  :lolb:

Well exactly. For some reason it reminded me of several episodes as a kid that would have taken me out of the gene pool.
Once was dropping a punk into a box of black cats. And then trying to retrieve it until I saw a fuse go.
Not as bad as the kid that dropped a spark into a box of m-80s. He also survived but the owners of many windows were not happy.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on May 03, 2016, 01:52:35 AM
But so far I've avoided those mid-western tombstones that begin with "hey watch me do this!"

Or "Look ma, no brain!", " How hard could that be?", "I could jump that!"...  :lolb:

Well exactly. For some reason it reminded me of several episodes as a kid that would have taken me out of the gene pool.
Once was dropping a punk into a box of black cats. And then trying to retrieve it until I saw a fuse go.
Not as bad as the kid that dropped a spark into a box of m-80s. He also survived but the owners of many windows were not happy.

Glad you were never a winner of the Darwin Award!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on May 03, 2016, 03:01:53 AM

But so far I've avoided those mid-western tombstones that begin with "hey watch me do this!"

Another way I've heard that stated is: "Here, hold my beer and watch this!"  :shrug:

Jim

PS: I think we can lay claim to some of that out West here, as well.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 03, 2016, 11:09:35 AM
Glad you were never a winner of the Darwin Award!

As kids we are all eligible.
No one wants to win but it sure seems some do try.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on June 04, 2016, 02:01:34 AM
This thread is currently on hold for renovation.

So here's the story. Retirement is around the corner. Could be tomorrow...if they let me go or I get tired enough...or within 1 year, 10 months, and 20 days (or so) if the next project is interesting.

Do we (T and I) stay or move?

We're going the route of staying. Which means renovating the house so we can stay here until they bag me up and carry me away.

So we're adding onto the house. We're modifying the existing garage into a bedroom (so we won't have to deal with stairs as we decay) and adding a new garage. And behind the new garage? A workshop with windows!!!  :cartwheel:

That means a whole lot of cleaning out and rearranging. It doesn't help that it's summer time which means sitting outside on the porch enjoying some wine and conversation with T instead of running machines and staying warm by the motor.

I don't expect any machine time for some time. But I hope to do some drawing and I certainly expect to keep in touch on the forum so we can all become decrepit together.

Nothing in stone yet. But that's the current plan.

Ah...that brings up a question that came up with the builder.
Please help.
What kind of floor to put in the workshop?
The builder suggests tile. I was thinking vinyl. Could be concrete.
I'm looking for pros and cons.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: sshire on June 04, 2016, 02:13:33 AM
Retire now!

What will be under the floor? Tell the builder that you may want to put a 2100 pound Bridgeport on it.
Being serious here.
The "other" forum, a few years ago, had a thread when Vascon was building a new shop and planned some heavy machinery.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on June 04, 2016, 02:15:15 AM
Best of luck with the new plans!

For shop floor, concrete is tough and solid, but hell on dropped tools. Some sort of wood or vinyl sheet floor, I would least an overlay,  is much more friendly on parts and for standing on, also warmewound up bolting my workbenches to wall and or floor to keep them from walking from vibration and sawing forces. Don't forget lots of outlets, enough amperage, and provision for lots of lighting.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on June 04, 2016, 02:16:28 AM
Retire now!

What will be under the floor? Tell the builder that you may want to put a 2100 pound Bridgeport on it.
Being serious here.
The "other" forum, a few years ago, had a thread when Vascon was building a new shop and planned some heavy machinery.

If going big, will need a large door too!! And a loading dock!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: 10KPete on June 04, 2016, 02:45:54 AM
Zee, the most important part of a shop as you get older (I'm 68 now) is heating. I put hydronic heating coils in the floor
of my shop. 1/2" PEX cost me $400 for the insulation, tube and fittings for the floor. Another $300 for a standard water
heater, pump and manifold parts. The heat is even and my feet aren't cold. And the cost is tiny. The shop space is really
well insulated by the way, with double glaze windows.

I'm here to tell 'ya that after decades of cold shops and floors I'm now in heaven, and a side benefit is that the shop stays
cool in the summer also.

We bought this place with the same plan you have; From here to the Home.

Good luck, give the details of how you want to live a lot of thought, and do what you can to make it good for you and T.

Pete
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on June 04, 2016, 02:46:01 AM
Vinyl will be subject to metal chips/swarf. I say concrete, then put anti fatigue mats in front of each machine.

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: 10KPete on June 04, 2016, 02:50:40 AM
What Bill said. Low cost, low maint. and flexible layout.

Pete
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on June 04, 2016, 02:51:54 AM
This thread is currently on hold for renovation.

So here's the story. Retirement is around the corner. Could be tomorrow...if they let me go or I get tired enough...or within 1 year, 10 months, and 20 days (or so) if the next project is interesting.

Do we (T and I) stay or move?

We're going the route of staying. Which means renovating the house so we can stay here until they bag me up and carry me away.

So we're adding onto the house. We're modifying the existing garage into a bedroom (so we won't have to deal with stairs as we decay) and adding a new garage. And behind the new garage? A workshop with windows!!!  :cartwheel:

That means a whole lot of cleaning out and rearranging. It doesn't help that it's summer time which means sitting outside on the porch enjoying some wine and conversation with T instead of running machines and staying warm by the motor.

I don't expect any machine time for some time. But I hope to do some drawing and I certainly expect to keep in touch on the forum so we can all become decrepit together.

Nothing in stone yet. But that's the current plan.

Ah...that brings up a question that came up with the builder.
Please help.
What kind of floor to put in the workshop?
The builder suggests tile. I was thinking vinyl. Could be concrete.
I'm looking for pros and cons.

Thanks.

Oh Boy.............I just love spending someone else's money!  :cartwheel:

If you move to a new place are you going to stay in the same area?
Are you really attached to this house?
Have you looked around to see what's out there? Single story, easy care yard, machine shop in the backyard, etc?
My hanger and machine/woodshop has a concrete floor with lots of pads to stand on (and hopefully catch dropped tools). I've thought about installing a laminate floor with built in pad in the shop part of the hanger.

This will be fun to follow along on.  :thinking:

Jim
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Captain Jerry on June 04, 2016, 03:04:28 AM
Concrete is fine but it must be covered by something resilient, both for leg comfort and for tool comfort.  Dropping things has become a more common event and they survive contact with something more resilient than concrete.  I covered my concrete with a 10 mm laminated locking laminated plank, floating on a foam rubber backing, without glue.  It is very comfortable and already has a few dents from tool impact.  This is Florida so 6" concrete, wire mesh reinforced, on compacted sand over crushed limestone is fine.  I don't anticipate any heavy machinery but if i did, I would plan well and locate it on an independent concrete pad. Planning is worth while.  Don't go too big, You have to heat and cool it if you want to use it.

One problem has occurred with the resilient floor.  I have a very heavy steel workbench.  On it, I have a very heavy anvil.  When I hit something really hard, the non-resilient steel workbench, sitting on the resilient floor vibrates so badly that thing fall off but of course they survive the landing on the resilient floor.   There is a difference between resilient and absorbent.

Jerry
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on June 04, 2016, 03:31:25 AM
I think that, just as important as pads to stand on, is having good footwear!

This could probably be a thread all it's own. Anyway, a couple of years ago I bought a pair of these soft soled work boots: http://www.georgiaboot.com/farm_boots/georgia-boot-barracuda-gold-wedge-work-boot/G8152.html?dwvar_G8152_color=24#sz=12&start=13

These beat the heck out of tennis shoes! I think that, not only is the sole important, but having the 8" height really helps support ones calf. I can work all day in these.

My 2 cents.

Jim
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Maryak on June 04, 2016, 03:42:40 AM
A Blacksmiths anvil is usually mounted on a wooden block which sits on a solid floor. The wood absorbs the shock of the heavy blows without vibration.

High class machine tools are mounted on concrete plinths and with resilient mounts between them and the plinth. These mounts are resilient in that they react to shocks around 10 - 30 x G
OK this is a home shop so just think about your dead blow and vibration points and give them half a chance. Then think about Zee and keep him in an environment with a humidity around 55% and a temperature 18-22 C. Wood underfoot is good when standing for long periods e.g. duckboards. Safety boots are just as important as safety glasses especially as oopsy and dropsy are more frequent visitors in our latter years.

Yes, I too am very good at spending the hard earned coin of others.  :facepalm:

Regards
Bob
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: 10KPete on June 04, 2016, 04:59:46 AM
What everyone has said about footwear is important. I didn't need anything special 'til I hit around 50, then shoes became
very important!!

Wow, shop planning..... :cheers:

Pete
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Pete49 on June 04, 2016, 05:03:05 AM
To add my 2 bobs worth re the floor. My workshop is concrete floor (termites rule in our area) and so no problems on where to put machines as they increase in number. No floor heating but then it doesn't snow here or get below 12C during the day but I have a wood burning stove for our winter and AC for our summers (40C +). After the machines where put in place I laid interlocking rubber (?) matting down on the floor for comfort and tool protection and the bonus is it keeps the cold away from my feet. Due to injuries from various youthful excesses and the workplace I need to sit so my tools are set to that height but also a good idea as we get older I know I enjoyed the 60's more the first time around :LittleAngel:. Anyway you now have plenty to think about so get to it  :LittleDevil:
Pete
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on June 04, 2016, 01:06:21 PM
Thanks very much for the help. Lots to think about.

Regarding the floor...if I understood the builder correctly, the shop will be on the same level as the garage. That should mean concrete. At least as the base. I'll need to verify that. If true then that gives me some flexibility.

The heaviest equipment I'll have is the mill and lathe. My top choices, for now, is the Grizzly mill G0759 (a G0704 with DRO) and the Grizzly lathe G0752.
Sorry Stan, no Bridgeport for me.

We talked electrical last night. I need to make a drawing to give him an idea of what and where. He was also asking about 220. There's an outlet out there now but I don't expect to use it.

Jim...you asked about whether we would move or not. That's been the question for years. But we could never find a house with the right orientation (we like southern light in the kitchen) along with the combination of rooms needed (office for T, workshop for me, master bedroom on 1st floor for elderly visitors). By adding on we get everything we want. Keep in mind too, in a move you drop $40K or more just for real estate agents and taxes. Just wasted.

Good point about resilient floor. It wouldn't have occurred to me to consider vibration.

Heating and cooling was discussed with builder.

As for shoes...good point and I'll have to think on it. I would like easy on/off so I can change shoes as I enter/exit the shop to minimize tracking swarf.

Loads of planning!

Lots can go wrong. Happens when you have to deal with other people.  ;D
Let's hope this doesn't turn into a failed dream.

Thanks again. I'll keep you all posted.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: ShopShoe on June 04, 2016, 02:11:20 PM
Zee,

Some thoughts on electrical.  Put in a sub-panel. You will not be sorry later. Definitely have 220, even if just to the sub panel right now. Have separate circuit(s) for general lighting so that tripped breakers won't put you in the dark. You may have to work harder to make your builder understand what you want because...."What we usually do is..."

On the floor, I like the idea of a softer floor but have concrete. A smooth floor helps you find things, especially if you take a flashlight and shine it sideways a few inches off the floor.  If you can have heating in the floor, go for it. I wish I had worked harder against the "Usually.." concept with my builder when I built my shop/garage.

ShopShoe
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: sshire on June 04, 2016, 02:56:09 PM
This seems ripe for a new thread. Otherwise, a future reader may think that Zee is building a 220V, cement Monitor.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on June 04, 2016, 03:08:56 PM
This seems ripe for a new thread. Otherwise, a future reader may think that Zee is building a 220V, cement Monitor.
With picture windows.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on June 04, 2016, 03:11:54 PM
Thanks ShopShoe. A sub-panel ran through my head last night but I failed to ask about it. It's on my list.
The 220 will stay but only in such a way that if someone ever needs they can easily extend.

This seems ripe for a new thread. Otherwise, a future reader may think that Zee is building a 220V, cement Monitor.

Good point Stan.  ;D

I'll start something in the 'My Workshop' once I have more questions or information. Or rather, once I know for sure this is no longer a dream.
I haven't gotten a number from the builder yet and although I have an idea of what it will be and a budget, surprises do happen.
Biggest concern are those people with the power (i.e. township, zoning, etc.)

Just saw your post Chris. Yes! Windows. With a bird feeder right outside. (Unless it attracts the squirrels. T would kill me. Squirrels raid her garden.)
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on June 04, 2016, 04:17:34 PM
Hmmm, living out the golden leaden years in southeastern PA wouldn't be my choice but I can understand not being able to find the perfect property at the right price in an area that provides scenery, safety and ready access to critical services.

Here are some random thoughts in no particular order...

Stop dropping tools!  What's with you guys?  Learn to work over your bench so, if a tool does get away from you, it falls no more than six inches.

220 is an absolute.  Someday you may want a welder or be given/find that heaven sent bargain tool that runs on it.  Someone has already mentioned lighting on a separate circuit (wish I had that in Garaj Mahal).  Put the workbench power strips under the front overhang, not behind the bench so that the cords won't snake across the mess on the top of the bench.

You want a stand-up, pound-on-it heavy bench as well as a sit-down bench for inspection/layout/polishing and other delicate tasks.  Put the latter under the windows and the former away from the windows so shrapnel from jobs done there won't take out glass.  A dirty bench well removed from the precision tools is a good idea.

Think about including an exhaust port/fan in the shop design.  Soldering and sulfurized cutting oil fumes need venting.

The shop man-door should open outwards and be fitted with a chime (to announce visitors).  That way it won't interfere with wall storage and can't be accidentally blocked from within, e.g. by your body when you collapse.  No exterior steps; if there are grade changes, specify concrete ramps.

Think about rafter storage; maybe even a mezzanine.

No built-ins.  Your chances of getting the internal organization right on the first try are zero (not an insult, it would be the same for me).  Put everything you can on wheels so it can evolutionarily adjust to your work habits.

Windows are nice but be sure they have opaque blinds.  Don't want the little miscreants casing all those fine tools before breaking in when you and T are in the Riviera to escape the PA winters.

On edit:

When they pour the pad for the shop, be sure to have them pour an outdoor pad where you can build a small shed to house the air compressor and store stock, etc..

A wash sink would be nice but maybe you don't want to mess with water lines living in an area where ice can exist outside a refrigerator.

Have them run a 3" PVC pipe from the shop back to the house so you can run telephone, intercom, audio, whatever lines when you wish.  Ferrets can be trained as wire pullers :-)

Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: sshire on June 04, 2016, 04:36:00 PM
Post a sign for the miscreants. "The really good stuff can be accessed by wearing long sleeves, gloves and letting your hair hang free. Then, lean over this lathe and press the big green button to open the vault"
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on June 04, 2016, 04:45:03 PM
Post a sign for the miscreants. "The really good stuff can be accessed by wearing long sleeves, gloves and letting your hair hang free. Then, lean over this lathe and press the big green button to open the vault"

Attaching the welder to the door knob when you're away might work too.

When I'm king and the Farallon Islands have been converted to a prison, the mandatory sentence for theft will be 25 years and you're not allowed to return to the country when released.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on June 04, 2016, 07:42:16 PM
Hmmm, living out the golden leaden years in southeastern PA wouldn't be my choice
220 is an absolute.
Think about including an exhaust port/fan in the shop design.
The shop man-door should open outwards and be fitted with a chime (to announce visitors).
Think about rafter storage; maybe even a mezzanine.

We had considered moving elsewhere, but so much of the country is now, shall we say, incompatible. A cultural thing. There is good everywhere as evidenced by our members. The kids are nearby too and looks like they are sticking. The youngest has promised to take care of my behind when I no longer can.  :Lol:

220 will be available but not necessarily located for immediate use.

Exhaust fan! Good reminder.

Direction of door! Good reminder.

Raft storage was discussed.

Was going to put a sink in but laundry room will be next door with a tub sink. Good enough.

Thanks. All of this information from you and others is in a folder. (Including mounts and locations for fire extinguishers.)


Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on June 04, 2016, 07:56:39 PM
The kids are nearby and you consider that good!?  I laugh in your general direction.  Better put an inside dead bolt on that man door (in addition to the one T puts on the outside) and an on/off switch on the chime if you expect uniterrupted workshop sessions.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Roger B on June 04, 2016, 08:02:39 PM
Somewhere in here someone is, I think, building an engine  :)  :)  :wine1:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on June 04, 2016, 08:35:31 PM
Somewhere in here someone is was, I think, building an engine  :)  :)  :wine1:

A slight edit to your post Roger.  :-\

Shop is temporarily closed for renovation.  ;D
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on June 04, 2016, 08:47:32 PM
Post a sign for the miscreants. "The really good stuff can be accessed by wearing long sleeves, gloves and letting your hair hang free. Then, lean over this lathe and press the big green button to open the vault"

Attaching the welder to the door knob when you're away might work too.

When I'm king and the Farallon Islands have been converted to a prison, the mandatory sentence for theft will be 25 years and you're not allowed to return to the country when released.

If you flew the shop thieves all the way to the island prison, let them swim back!  :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on June 04, 2016, 09:02:10 PM
The Farallons are 30 miles off the coast of San Francisco.  Cold water and vicious currents plus the waters around the islands are breeding grounds for the great white shark.  Swimming would be a life-changing experience.

The beauty of this island is that we wouldn't need guards.  Just give the inmates their shovel, seed packets and a blanket, drop them off and let them create their own society (or murder each other; hardly matters).  I don't think law-abiding citizens should have to pay for room, board, security and, now, sex changes for criminals.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on June 04, 2016, 10:42:07 PM
The Farallons are 30 miles off the coast of San Francisco.  Cold water and vicious currents plus the waters around the islands are breeding grounds for the great white shark.  Swimming would be a life-changing experience.

The beauty of this island is that we wouldn't need guards.

And if they do swim...they may be swimming towards Marv.
What better backup could we ask for?

It might be interesting to see  how California's tourism business is doing since the time he ran away from Pennsylvania.  :lolb: :lolb:

But if I'm ever in the area...I'd sure like to meet. So long as you have vodka...and plenty of it. But you're a gin drinker right?
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on June 04, 2016, 10:57:47 PM
Oh - Zee, another VERY important addition to your new shop - make sure there is a nice little apartment for the shop elves to live in! Stock it with cookies and beer, couch, small TV set, and hope some good elves move in.   :DrinkPint:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on June 04, 2016, 11:38:30 PM
Oh - Zee, another VERY important addition to your new shop - make sure there is a nice little apartment for the shop elves to live in! Stock it with cookies and beer, couch, small TV set, and hope some good elves move in.   :DrinkPint:

No elves available. You have them all.

And...if I stock with cookies, beer, couch, TV...why would I share that with anyone?
(Change beer to vodka or wine...and we're talking heaven.)
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on June 04, 2016, 11:47:49 PM
It might be interesting to see  how California's tourism business is doing since the time he ran away from Pennsylvania.

It's booming.  They come to see me!  I've got my own star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame.  It's between Bozo the Clown and Rin Tin Tin.

And just to be clear...I didn't run away from PA;  I escaped!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on June 05, 2016, 01:19:16 AM
And just to be clear...I didn't run away from PA;  I escaped!

By running.  :lolb:

I knew that one would get a response.  :Lol:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: PStechPaul on June 05, 2016, 02:15:51 AM
If you do get Elves, watch out for those pesky Elves impersonators. ;)
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on June 05, 2016, 03:31:47 AM
If you do get Elves, watch out for those pesky Elves impersonators. ;)

 :facepalm:

"Thank you very much" for that getting stuck in my brain!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on June 29, 2016, 01:37:09 AM
bumzies.

New shop is getting smaller and smaller.
And...after talking to another builder...we're colliding with upcoming holidays. Will probably put off building to January.
Must have kitchen for Thanksgiving and Christmas. Yes...I admit it...my shop has a lower priority to family and T's food.

But it's going to happen. Yes. It must.

It would help if I had that muddy picture of you know who.  :naughty:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on June 29, 2016, 02:13:43 AM
Take a stand man.  Put on a pair of overalls and a shirt with a pocket, get a big claw hammer and stand your ground. Now you can paint it pleasant earth tones and decorate in French country motif, but, DO NOT GIVE UP SPACE. I'm going to send in reinforcements  >:D :lolb:

Cletus
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on June 29, 2016, 02:20:20 AM
Take a stand man.  Put on a pair of overalls and a shirt with a pocket, get a big claw hammer and stand your ground. Now you can paint it pleasant earth tones and decorate in French country motif, but, DO NOT GIVE UP SPACE. I'm going to send in reinforcements  >:D :lolb:

Cletus

Have the dining room table be butcher block on sawhorses. For holidays get a nice tarp, um, I mean tablecloth.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on June 29, 2016, 02:38:28 AM
Take a stand man.

Have no fear. I have a minimum.

But yes...when it comes to food and wife, I'm a wienie too.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on June 29, 2016, 02:53:54 AM
bumzies.

New shop is getting smaller and smaller.

You're going to have those Sherlines yet!  :naughty:  :mischief:

Jim
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Jo on June 29, 2016, 08:38:34 AM
It would help if I had that muddy picture of you know who.  :naughty:

 :ShakeHead:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on June 29, 2016, 10:44:01 AM
Hi Zee,
 Start sleeping standing up....less floor space........more for "the Shop"  :lolb:

Can see how THAT would go down.... :Argue:  :Director::cussing: :cussing: :Mad: :Mad: :Mad:.......maybe not! Back to the drawing board.

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: kvom on June 29, 2016, 12:06:53 PM
When I built my shop in 2008 I put radiant heating in the slab.  Highly recommended for even, dry heat.

I also have a good number of 220V outlets and a large panel.  In addition, I put in as many 110V outlets as I could, so I'm never far from one no matter where in the shop I'm working.  Still have one spot I wished I'd put one.

Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on October 12, 2016, 12:41:38 AM
I am more than embarrassed and would not blame anyone for sounding a 'pffft' at me.
I've not paid any attention to the forum, my friends that is, for a while.
Looking in tonight, I get an overwhelming feeling like I'm joining a forum (this forum) for the first time.
I think of you all quite often, but unfortunately, I'm still in "squirrel" mode. (Think of the movie 'Up').

A little update...

Youngest is getting married in a week. Saturdays are spent practicing the 'father-daughter' dance. The family has high expectations of me but I know I'll simply break down and bawl in the middle of it. If I'd had a son, I could kick him out. I know boys.  ;D But I have two daughters. Any father with a daughter knows what that means.  ;D Your heart always hurts.

Much of the time is getting ready for the home renovation. Starts in January. I'll have a new shop in April. Trying to figure out the timing to get a mill and lathe.
Getting ready for the renovation includes a new kitchen. My wife's shop. I want her to have whatever she wants (don't we for our shop?) but I'm responsible for clean up and have to tread a fine line of saying nothing when she makes a choice and attempting to make it sure it is easy to clean.

Also planning a trip for my dad's 90th. Major milestone. And I'm a fortunate man that my parents are still alive as well as my wife's...and we're nearing retirement!

Anyhow...just a quick update. Apologies to my friends. I'm ignoring you but I'm thinking of you.

As usual...that makes no sense at all.



Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on October 12, 2016, 12:48:03 AM
Well, if thats ALL thats going on....  :stickpoke:

I hope you at least go in and talk to your Monitor parts once in a while so they dont get lonely.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on October 12, 2016, 01:14:24 AM
Hi Zee, glad you checked in buddy. Yeah I married both of my daughters at the same time lucky me huh. But it cost me to divorce the youngest one also. Love my girls like you but they are a pain in the butt some time. Is the shop last on the list and moma gets her's first. Go idea bud then she can't complain when you build yours and add all your new toys to it.
Don't be a stranger buddy keep us informed more often and stay well my friend.

Don
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on October 12, 2016, 01:15:36 AM
I can relate Zee. Both of my girls are married now and have kids of their own. I was a basket case at both weddings. Fortunately, I gained two great sons in law.

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: 10KPete on October 12, 2016, 01:41:26 AM
Kinda figgered 'ya had some things goin' on in yer life there Carl. I must admit that I was a gittin a bit worried there after a while went by and no words.

Now I hate ta be a nag, but you just have to post some pics of these events so's we can see that they really did happen!!

 :lolb:

Best wishes,
Pete
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on October 12, 2016, 01:44:16 AM
Zee who!!

Well at least we know that you are still above ground :lolb:

Take care buddy, and when you are ready; and have some time for the hobbies I'm sure we will still be here wondering what ever happened to your Monitor project.
Can't imaging starting a remodel/build project in the middle of the winter; I hope that is all goes well and we get to see pictures of the new shop!

Dave
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on October 12, 2016, 03:36:16 AM
Dang Zee............you've been one busy boy and will be for the foreseeable future!

Thanks for checking in. I reference your Elmer's #43 build thread often.

Jim

PS: I'm looking forward to seeing shop and equipment pictures next spring.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Jo on October 12, 2016, 08:22:32 AM
Hey Zee, Sounds like you are a gluten for punishment.

It will be all over so quickly then we will still be here waiting to see you christen your new grandchildren machine tools  :embarassed:

Jo

P.S. Don't forget to add a couple of casting sets to the list of things for the new workshop... you'll need something to test the new machines out on  ;)
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on October 12, 2016, 11:12:47 AM
Thanks all!

Pics will be made!
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Maryak on October 12, 2016, 09:11:32 PM
Hi Zee,

Been there, done that; so I understand where you are, especially the bawling as your little girl is snatched away to be someone's woman.

Best Regards
Bob

PS still one step forward and two back with Beagle.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on October 20, 2016, 09:24:09 PM
So, the wedding is presumably over,  SO. Come on man,  where are the details.  How did the dance go,  did you get drunk and embarrass T and the rest,  were the caterers good,  how about the wine selection,  pictures,  you are slacking here dude.  C'mon man,  pull it together   :lolb: :lolb: :lolb:

Cletus
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: bruedney on October 20, 2016, 09:50:03 PM
He lives  :stickpoke:

I have two daughters and have married one of them (I am a Salvation Army Officer so yes I actually did the ceremony). A totally heart wrenching time (especially when you ask your soon to be son in law if he will take your daughter to be his wife).

# 2 gets married in April and to a young man who loves to tinker with mechanical stuff so we get on great. Not sure if I am going to do this wedding though.

Stay in touch even if it is so we all see that you are still breathing

Cheers

Bruce
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on October 20, 2016, 10:09:25 PM
Hopefully the wedding did not have any boring tools, or dull bits...! 
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 09, 2017, 11:20:37 PM
Hello my friends. I hope I can still call you all that. I've been out of touch for a while.
Unfortunately, I still expect to be out for a while yet.

Firstly, I hope this finds you and yours all in good health and having fun. A belated Merry/Happy Christmas and my best wishes for the New Year.

The wedding was great. I should have a couple of pics soon. I mean really great. I managed to do a Viennese waltz with my daughter and then another with my wife. At my age and worthless body...it's quite a feat. Very fast.

And now to more important things...

We've been busy emptying out the 1st floor in preparation of the remodel. The digging started today.
A huge project. I don't recall if I'd mentioned what we are doing...

After fruitless searching for a home to retire to (less than two years away!!!) we decided to stay put and remodel the house so we can stay here comfortably until...how to put this...it's time to close shop permanently.

Bumping the 1st floor out 8 feet, adding a sun porch, converting the garage to a master bedroom (so we don't have to deal with stairs), and adding a garage...along with...yes...a workshop!!!

Digging started today! Very scary seeing all the huge equipment and the big holes.

The workshop looks like it will end up to be about 13'6" by 18'or 19'. I think that should be more than sufficient.
And two windows!!! No more basement for me. And it's all mine. Mine. None of this storing of canned veggies and fruit in my area anymore.

I can't wait for March/April. Then I'll order my mill and lathe. I'll have questions for you all.

That's it for now. Just a quickie note to let you all know I do think of you.

I will be back.

Yes yes. I'll have pictures.

Thanks for your patience.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: sco on January 10, 2017, 12:11:34 AM
Who are you?  Only kidding - we've missed you Zee - check the shout box!

Simon.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: steamer on January 10, 2017, 02:38:37 AM
Hello my friends. I hope I can still call you all that. I've been out of touch for a while.
Unfortunately, I still expect to be out for a while yet.

Firstly, I hope this finds you and yours all in good health and having fun. A belated Merry/Happy Christmas and my best wishes for the New Year.

The wedding was great. I should have a couple of pics soon. I mean really great. I managed to do a Viennese waltz with my daughter and then another with my wife. At my age and worthless body...it's quite a feat. Very fast.

And now to more important things...

We've been busy emptying out the 1st floor in preparation of the remodel. The digging started today.
A huge project. I don't recall if I'd mentioned what we are doing...

After fruitless searching for a home to retire to (less than two years away!!!) we decided to stay put and remodel the house so we can stay here comfortably until...how to put this...it's time to close shop permanently.

Bumping the 1st floor out 8 feet, adding a sun porch, converting the garage to a master bedroom (so we don't have to deal with stairs), and adding a garage...along with...yes...a workshop!!!

Digging started today! Very scary seeing all the huge equipment and the big holes.

The workshop looks like it will end up to be about 13'6" by 18'or 19'. I think that should be more than sufficient.
And two windows!!! No more basement for me. And it's all mine. Mine. None of this storing of canned veggies and fruit in my area anymore.

I can't wait for March/April. Then I'll order my mill and lathe. I'll have questions for you all.

That's it for now. Just a quickie note to let you all know I do think of you.

I will be back.

Yes yes. I'll have pictures.

Thanks for your patience.


ZEEEEEEE!     Good to see ya buddy!...
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: crueby on January 10, 2017, 03:15:10 AM
Great to hear from you again! Glad things are moving along, construction is always a big upheaval but sounds well worth it.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 10, 2017, 01:15:48 AM
Hi Zee, good to see you. Hope things go well with the remodel and that you may have more time to pop in now that the wedding is behind you.

Bill
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: sshire on January 10, 2017, 04:56:16 AM
Oh my! You're back :cartwheel:
Cletus has been in withdrawal with no one to abuse.
If you need any help with the heavy digging or lifting...PM dreeves. He's just around the corner. :lolb:
Any chance we'll see you for a fleeting moment at CF?
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on January 10, 2017, 04:57:15 AM
It's great to hear from you Zee! Sounds like things are going well. I don't envy you your remodel project,having been there, but it will be worth it in the end. Especially getting a dedicated shop.

Speaking of "dedicated shop", how about starting a "Zee's New Workshop" in "My Workspace"? Even if it's just a hole in the ground right now.  It'd be great to see this project evolve.

Jim
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Alan Haisley on January 10, 2017, 09:53:40 AM

Zee,

Just remember that however many outlets you put in, it won't be enough - or they will be in the wrong place. So, just put in lots and lots.
... Also some 220 V circuits.
... And a big door to the outside. Otherwise how will you get big tools in and out.
... And lots of lights.
... And ...


 :mischief:


Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: fumopuc on January 10, 2017, 08:32:36 AM
Hi Carl,
good to hear (read) you are fine.
Your plans and actions to have a comfortable future in your house sounds very wise and well planed.
Good luck with the doing now.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: kvom on January 10, 2017, 03:26:03 PM
I have two daughters of marriageable age, but neither has shown any inclination for giving up the comforts and free food of the parental home.  Wife would like to keep them here forever.

Good move with the build out.  We'll need pics of the new shop.
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: gerritv on January 10, 2017, 06:56:22 PM
Hi Zee
I can relate to the excitement of having a workshop to yourself. We moved from a large house to condo when I retired. Tried that for 8 long years but we realized a house is what we both needed. Now have a 12' by 15' shop in basement (with 2 windows and a door outside) as well as half the garage. Filling up with tools for retirement heaven!

Enjoy the anticipation, doodle up layouts etc.

For outlets I put them in the shop in square boxes, so 4 plugs per unit. As someone else indicated, you can never have too many.

Gerrit
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: mklotz on January 10, 2017, 05:21:51 PM
Glad to see you back, Zee.The prospect of having a shop/cave of your own must be thrilling.

Remember what I said about...

Shop doors opening outwards so you can have storage next to door.
Fire extinguishers placed next to exit doors.
Door chime (not bell or buzzer) to announce people entering shop so you're not startled while working.

As long as you'll have carpenters there, think about a built-in stock rack made with leftovers from remodel.  Maybe workbenches too.,
Title: Re: Monitor Steam Engine
Post by: Don1966 on January 10, 2017, 05:30:10 PM
Zee buddy glad to see your starting on the new shop. Man we thought you disappeared off the map there buddy. I want to see some of those photos of you doing the waltz with the misses. You know I love to dance.  :cartwheel:

Don