Model Engine Maker

Engines => Your Own Design => Topic started by: Vixen on July 19, 2015, 06:08:08 PM

Title: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 19, 2015, 06:08:08 PM
1       A short history of the Mercedes-Benz W165, 1.5 litre racing car  

Throughout the 1930’s, the German Mercedes Benz and Auto Union ‘Silver Arrows’ cars were an unbeatable force in Grand Prix racing.

The W165 racing car with it’s 1.5 litre V8 engine was developed by Mercedes-Benz for a single race – the 1939 Tripoli Grand Prix in Mellaha (Libya), then part of Italy. In those days the Tripoli Grand prix was a prestigious event in a prosperous Libya.

The Italian officials issued special regulations for the 1939 race in the Italian colony. The entrants were to be limited to the ‘voiturette formula’ for supercharged 1.5 litre engines. The intention was to sideline the German competitors, because both Mercedes-Benz (Tripoli winners in 1935, 1937 and 1938) and Auto Union (winners in 1936) had powerful 3.0 litre engines and thought not able to present a racing car for this class.

The managing director of Mercedes-Benz, Max Sailor, accepted the challenge and set the factory to work day and night to build two cars. The Untertürkheim plant was off limits to anyone without a special pass. They were left with the impossible task of developing cars in just eight months in time for the Tripoli Grand Prix. What emerged was the type W165, a scaled down version of their highly successful 3.0 litre Grand Prix cars.

In many design details, the W165 was based on the then current V12, 3-litre W154 Grand Prix car. The mechanically supercharged V8 had a displacement of 1,493 cc delivered 187 (254hp) at 8,000 rpm, and reached a top speed of 272km/h (160 mph) powered by a cocktail of alcohol, nitrobenzene, ether and acetone.

The development team under Rudolf Uhlenhaut achieved miracles. Two Mercedes-Benz W165 cars started the race in Tripoli on 7 May 1939, against an overwhelming number of competitors – 28 red-painted Alfa Romeo and Maserati voiturette racing cars. The W165’s achieved a triumphant double victory. Herman Lang won the spectacular, high speed, race for the third time, Rudolf Caracciola finished second, while the fastest Italian car with Emilio Villoresi at the wheel, crossed the finish line a good four minutes later.
 
It was to be their only victory, indeed their only race. Shortly after, war broke out in Europe, bringing motor racing to a halt for many years. Both cars survived the hostilities in neutral Switzerland and were eventually returned to MB. Motor racing would resume after the end of the war. Grand Prix racing was to run under the new Formula 1 regulations, which permitted either 1.5 litre supercharged or 4.5 litre un-supercharged engines.

After the war, a young British engineer, Cameron Earl, was sent to occupied Germany by the British Intelligence Objectives Sub committee (BIOS) to investigate and report on the development of Grand Prix racing cars before the war. The finished report, BIOS Report 1755, contained many detailed Mercedes-Benz blueprints of the W165 car and it’s 1.5 litre engine. The report was made available to the British motor industry and greatly influenced the design of the BRM V16, 1.5 litre, Grand Prix car.

I have obtained a copy of the British Intelligence report and have used the Mercedes-Benz blueprints as the basis of my CAD drawings for my 1:3 scale models of the W165 engine. Today, some 75 years after it was designed, the W165 engine is still an exciting engine, a technical masterpiece.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/gplrev1214.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/gplrev1215.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030953.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030954.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030966.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030964.jpg)

That's my 1/3 scale Supercharger sitting on top of the real thing.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jo on July 19, 2015, 06:16:54 PM
We are going to enjoy this  :whoohoo:

Mike the forum software doesn't seem to like your first four photos I think it could be because they are BMPs  :(

Jo
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jo on July 19, 2015, 06:26:19 PM
Nice to see you in the photograph with the engine  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 19, 2015, 06:31:43 PM
The driver in the white helmet with the tartan band is non other than Sir Jackie Stuart. He was the guest driver for the only running W165 at last years Goodwood Festival of Speed. The only other surviving W165 is on permanent display in the MB museum in Stuttgart.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: fumopuc on July 19, 2015, 06:37:23 PM
Hi Mike, thanks for reminding me of the history of this great race car. Waiting for the next steps of your build report.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: b.lindsey on July 19, 2015, 07:49:29 PM
Looking forward to this one as well. Should be a great build log!!

Bill
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: sco on July 19, 2015, 08:59:19 PM
I too am looking forward to this build.

I have had the great privilege of sitting in the W165!

Simon.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 19, 2015, 09:28:34 PM
Simon, Do you happen to work for a certain car company in Northants?
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: sco on July 19, 2015, 09:46:49 PM
Yes - the last two years after the Festival of Speed they've brought the cars up to the factory and fired them up in the car park.

Chatting to one of the MB classic team they are now running the cars so much that their stock of original parts is getting depleted and they are having to remake some bits.  Apparently the desmodromic valves from the 300SLR proved quite a challenge for Mercedes HPP at Brixworth!

Simon.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on July 20, 2015, 02:36:19 AM
I saw the germ of this project begin in ME a while back!   Welcome Mike

Looking forward to this build as well!


Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Art K on July 20, 2015, 03:43:04 AM
Mike,
I along with all the rest am looking forward to this build.
Art
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 20, 2015, 12:41:58 PM
2       Producing drawings for the W165 engine

The British Intelligence report was published and made public by HMSO in 1948 as a book aptly titled ‘Quick Silver’. Copies of this book are still readily available.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040808.jpg)

Cameron Earl, the report author, had free access to the Mercedes-Benz organisation in Stuttgart, located in the zone controlled by the Allies. The Auto Union facilities were in the Russian zone. Even by 1947 relations between east and west were deterioration, so access was denied.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040810.jpg)

Cameron Earl, a keen racing driver, made good use of his time in Germany, interviewing and collecting valuable documentation from MB and leading material suppliers. Earl was well aware of the proposed Formula 1 regulations for supercharged 1.5 litre engines. He therefore concentrated upon the Tripoli GP winning W165, and acquired many of the MB blueprints detailing the engine, transmission, steering, suspension and chassis. These prints were the obvious starting point for my project.

I am a lifelong user of AutoCAD. I only design and draw in 2D, because that it all I require to make engines. I discovered a way to import a scanned image as a bitmap (BMP) into AutoCAD. The BMP image is on it’s own layer and can be stretched to fit any desired scale. Just remember to freeze the layer when it is to the correct size.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P10408~4.jpg)

The scanned images from Earl’s report were the best (and remain the only) information available. Using the AutoCAD drawing tools, it is then possible to painstakingly trace the outlines each component over the  BMP images. The process takes me months but results in a trustworthy overall assembly drawing with the interface between each component clearly defined.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P11EF0~1.jpg)

The original BMP layer can be turned off and the relevant piece parts copied to separate manufacturing drawings for the individual component. I find this drawing work very enjoyable and a pleasant way to spend the long winter’s evenings when it is too cold to venture out into the machine shop.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/workshop.jpg)

My machine shop is almost entirely outfitted with CNC machines. My Emco Compact 5 CNC lathe and Emco F1 CNC mill were once the property of Her Majesty's Prison Service at Parkhurst Prison in the Isle of Wight, home to some very ‘tough nuts’. The machines were used in a vain attempt to retrain the criminals for a better future. Eventually, these old 1980’s technology machines were removed for disposal. I was the lucky guy who got to buy them. I stripped out and updated the ancient electronics and stepper motors with readily available modern stuff. I have used these old machines for over 15 years to produce a number of engines and other projects. It could be true what they say about the sweetest music coming from the oldest violins.

Every CNC machine needs a list of tool path commands to function. I use Desk NC to interpret G-Code instructions and move the tool around. I also use DesKAM to help create the toolpath commands in G-Code. I can export an outline shape from AutoCAD into DesKAM, I define the cutter size, depth of cut, step over dimension, feed and speed and the program works out the necessary toolpath. After that it is as simple as bolting down a block of stock material and pressing the ‘GO’ button.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P10205~1.jpg)

Oh! I wish it were really that simple. Ha ha.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Stuart on July 20, 2015, 12:55:52 PM
Got a order in for extra pop corn for this build  :cheers:

Looking forwards to what is to come


Stuart
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: fumopuc on July 20, 2015, 08:01:24 PM
Hi Mike, thanks for taking the time to explaine the details of the scource for your special design.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: DavidF on July 21, 2015, 05:18:17 AM
Im scratching my head here trying to figure this one out.  Its a 1.5L V8??   Whats the bore and stroke of the engine, then what will the scale of the model be?  Looking forward to seeing your progress :)
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jo on July 21, 2015, 07:12:54 AM
I stripped and updated the ancient electronics and stepper motors with readily available modern stuff. I have used these old machines for over 15 years to produce a number of engines and other projects. It could be true what they say about the sweetest music coming from the oldest violins.

........

Oh! I wish it were really that simple. Ha ha.

 :naughty: I assume you mean that the CNC is almost human as it too can provide unique features to each individual item that the rest of us thought can only be created by hand  ;).

Jo
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on July 21, 2015, 07:38:38 AM
Im scratching my head here trying to figure this one out.  Its a 1.5L V8??   Whats the bore and stroke of the engine, then what will the scale of the model be?  Looking forward to seeing your progress :)

 :headscratch:

"The W165 racing car with it’s 1.5 litre V8 engine"

And the title of the thread " Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale"
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 21, 2015, 08:08:00 AM
The full size Mercedes-Benz W165 engine had a displacement of 1,495 cc. The bore and stroke being 64  mm x 58 mm
The 1:3 scale model of the W165 engine will have a displacement of 55.4 cc and a bore and stroke of 21.3 mm x 19.3 mm

Hope this clears your confusion
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: DavidF on July 21, 2015, 06:05:51 PM
Im scratching my head here trying to figure this one out.  Its a 1.5L V8??   Whats the bore and stroke of the engine, then what will the scale of the model be?  Looking forward to seeing your progress :)

 :headscratch:

"The W165 racing car with it’s 1.5 litre V8 engine"

And the title of the thread " Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale"

  vixen cleared it up.  I was curious as to the bore and stroke since a 1.5 Litre v8 is pretty small displacement wise for a v8, but looks quite large when looking at it on youtube videos.
But yes I did miss the 1:3 scale in the title  :facepalm2:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 21, 2015, 06:34:09 PM
David,
I agree, 1.5 litre is a very small capacity for a V8, compared to the enormous V8 engines you race in the States.

However the regulations for that one race in Tripoli stipulated 1.5 litres, so that is what Mercedes-Benz designed and built to power the W165. The W165 was a miniature V8 version of their highly successful 3.0 litre V12 W163 Grand Prix engine.

When motor racing resumed in Europe, in the last 1940's, the BRM team went even further and designed and built a 1.5 litre V16.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on July 21, 2015, 06:47:51 PM
I suppose size for size they would be similar to a couple of 750cc V4 motorbike engines bolted end to end so plenty of power at high revs :)
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 21, 2015, 06:58:17 PM
Jason
Yes exactly the same as two superbike engines, but don't forget to add the two stage supercharger pumping nitrobenzene into those cylinders at 2.6 bar (39 psi).  I can smell that marzipan smell of the fuel from here.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: DavidF on July 21, 2015, 07:10:47 PM
Quote
the BRM team went even further and designed and built a 1.5 litre V16.

 :insane: :insane: :insane:

Wish I could get a look insied that one! 
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 21, 2015, 07:36:24 PM
David,
Your wish is my command.
Here is a longitudinal and lateral cross section drawing of the over ambitious 1.5 litre BRM V16.
The bore and stroke of this little baby was a mere 49.3mm x 47.8mm
The BRM V16 revved to over 10,000 rpm and had a Rolls-Royce designed two-stage centrifugal supercharger similar to the one from the Merlin aircraft engine (Spitfire and Mustang)
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on July 21, 2015, 07:38:42 PM
If I may step out of my redneck shell, I would just like to say,  that during this era,  engines were built wit the  precision of a fine turbuillion movement.  It was done by hand. To me it's much more impressive than what can be produced today by technology.  Remember when all the really good gun makers still hand filed and fitted,  but,  that's just my thinking  :shrug:

Cletus
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Allen Smithee on July 21, 2015, 07:57:45 PM
David,
The BRM V16 revved to over 10,000 rpm and had a Rolls-Royce designed two-stage axial supercharger similar to the one from the Merlin aircraft engine (Spitfire and Mustang)

ITYM "centrifugal supercharger".

AS
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: DavidF on July 22, 2015, 04:36:12 AM
they're both pretty impressive engines for their time. I think I like the v8 better design wise as it is what I am more accustomed to seeing and would pt more trust into it performing. But no mater how you look at it, its pretty amazing what the builders did with the design without the resources we have today.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 23, 2015, 05:37:54 PM
3A    Supercharger Gearcase

Time to start cutting metal

I now have sufficient completed drawings to confirm that the largest part, the crankcase will fit onto my mill. The crankcase overall length is 7.5 " and the X axis travel on the mill is 8". It will fit (only just) and could be machined, provided I am very careful with positioning the billet during the set up.

I decided to make a start with the two stage supercharger. It is very a very prominent feature on the front of the engine. I reasoned that if I could complete the supercharger successfully then the rest of the engine would follow. If the supercharger turned out badly, I would stop there.

I ordered in enough stock material for two superchargers. My choice for aluminium alloy is always grade 6082T6 (HE30TF). It is hard, strong and machines beautifully and readily available from most aluminium stockists.

The first component to be made was to be the supercharger gearcase. This gearcase contains the gears which synchronize the rotation of the compressor lobes and prevents them touching each other. It also contains the drive gears from the crankshaft. The full size gearcase was a magnesium casting , I machined the ones for my model from a solid billet of aluminium.

You can see the toolpath display generated for machining the internal details and also the corresponding first step of machining this into the  billet of aluminium. I always machine the critical features as the first operation. For this particular component, it was the positions of the gear shafts, their bearing cavities and all the interface bolt holes. After that, it was many, many small toolpath programs and machining steps to contour the remaining internal and external features. Eventually I had reduced most of the billet to small chips and was quite relieved to find a gearcase inside that aluminium billet. Most of the work was done using 6mm and 8mm diameter ball cutters in order to create the well rounded 'casting' look. The feeds and speeds for ball mills is a lot lower than for a normal end mill.

The strange looking feature on the left side is the cast in oil filter housing. The oil filter is a multi plate edge filter which literally scrapes the debris from the oil. The small handle is used to rotate the filter plates once in a while, to clear the debris from the edge of the filter plates.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 23, 2015, 05:41:24 PM
3B    The completed supercharger gearcase

Here are the some photos of the completed gearcase and oil filter housing

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020595.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020542.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020597.jpg)
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: RMO on July 23, 2015, 07:06:16 PM
Beautiful! 
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: b.lindsey on July 24, 2015, 12:37:31 AM
Very nice start on the gearcase. I' m along for the journey
 :popcorn:

Bill
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: fumopuc on July 24, 2015, 05:19:12 AM
Hi Mike, very  interesting. First I have struggled to recognize the split lines, but now I hope I got it. Beautiful.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on July 24, 2015, 08:51:50 AM
Excellent start  :praise2:  :praise2: I will be following along  :wine1:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 31, 2015, 03:50:23 PM
4A   Supercharger Housings


The next parts to be made are going be a serious test of my CNC programming and machining skills. I will attempt to machine the two sets of the High Pressure and Low pressure Roots Compressor outer casings from solid billets of alloy. The original housings, made by Mercedes-Benz, were an outstanding feat of foundry work. The thin wall compressor casings were sand cast in magnesium. I will machine my compressor casings out of a solid round billet of aluminium alloy. But what a waste of metal !!!!! 95% of the billets will end up as chips in the scrap bin.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020560.jpg)


The 75mm (3 inch) diameter aluminium HE 30 TF alloy billets being sawn to length on the bandsaw. It seems to take forever to make those cuts

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020562.jpg)

Two HP and two LP Roots compressor housings billets await their fate.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020573.jpg)

 Drilling the hold down bolt holes to secure the billets onto the mill table. I am using a home made CNC dividing head to index the billet. There will be just enough room to fit under the headstock of my mill, provided I clamp the billets directly to the table.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020578.jpg)

The first HP housing billet clamped to the mill table and the chips begin to fly. I always machine aluminium alloy dry. I use the plastic pipe is used to blow the chips out of that deep hole.
Just remember to blow, not suck!

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020581.jpg)

The inside of the HP compressor housing is starting to look quite nice. The base flange together with the bolt holes have already been machined, so everything should be concentric.
The bulk of the material is pocketed out, leaving a 10 thou finishing cut to bring the inside face of the compressor housing to size.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020583.jpg)

The bucket is nearly full and I have hardly started

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020575.jpg)

Disaster strikes. One of the HP billets escapes from the hold down clamps. Will have to wait until a new 12mm long series end mill is delivered. Will give me time to consider what went wrong and how to stop it happening next time.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020594.jpg)

Got there eventually. Two sets of Hp and LP compressor housings finished internally and roughed to the required outside profile. Time for a cup of tea, while I consider how to tackle the inlet/ outlet ports and the fins.







Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: tvoght on July 31, 2015, 04:09:07 PM
Astounding work.I appreciate the setup and process photos.
With regard to the use of compressed air to clear the chips: It appears there is a through hole from the bottom of the workpiece for air flow, but It's not clear how things are plumbed from the plastic hose. Is there a passage made in the fixture plate somehow?

--Tim
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 31, 2015, 04:17:14 PM
Tim
There is very little technology involved. I point one end of the plastic pipe down the hole, put the other in my mouth and blow (not suck). I tried an air compressor, but even at the lowest pressure I was getting sand blasted by the chips. Lung pressure worked much better

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: tvoght on July 31, 2015, 04:24:42 PM
Thanks for the clarification about the air source. Still, can you confirm that the end of the hose extends to a bottom hole in the workpiece so that the chips are being blown out from the bottom of the pocket? By the way, looking at the photo again I just noticed a smiley face drawn in the chip dust on the headstock!

--Tim
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 31, 2015, 04:35:22 PM
Tim,
The plastic pipe just happens to be parked on the end of one of the hold down bolts.  That way I always get the 'clean' end to blow down. I simply point the hose into the cavity, every minute or so, and gently blow out the chips. There are no air passages in the base plate.
Sometimes you get some spit as well, I guess that acts as a cutting fluid.       LOL

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: tvoght on July 31, 2015, 04:42:35 PM
Mike,
Gotcha. This is a trick I can use. I do blow the chips away a lot using my breath, but have never tried directing the flow with a tube .  It seems obvious in retrospect, but obvious things don't always occur to me...

--Tim
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 31, 2015, 04:48:31 PM
Tim
Just two things to remember.
1) always use the clean end of the tube
2) always remember to blow.

LOL

Mike

Part 4A Supercharger Housing,  was posted earlier, at the top of this page
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jo on July 31, 2015, 07:00:58 PM
I hadn't realised that your CNC mill could take cutters up to 12mm. What with the 30int nose they sound like they could be very useful addition to the workshop    :slap:



Sorry Mike decision made I am not going to Bristol this year :-[

Jo
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on July 31, 2015, 07:10:08 PM
Great idea on the the " pocket blow tube" When I read your two things to remember,  I couldn't help but recall a joke I heard. A newly minted "city boy became farmer" let his cow get in the corncrib and she became bloated. The vet was summoned and told the poor chap, "we've got to get her gut working". He inserted a long tube up her bum and started blowing, stopping only to explain what he was trying to do. The poor girl was in a really bad way and when the vet needed to take a short break,  he handed the hose to the farmer and said you blow a bit.  Well, the old boy says I'm not blowing on that,  you've had it in your mouth.  So, the old vet retracts the tube, swaps ends, hands it to the chap, says I'm sorry,  and the old boy says; "now that's better " :lolb: :lolb:. Couldn't help myself  :mischief:

Cletus
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 31, 2015, 07:30:38 PM
Jo
All my EMCO 30 Int tool holders have integral ER25 collet holders, therefore I could mount a 16mm milling cutter. I think that may be asking a bit much from an EMCO F1. If you can find a box full, you would indeed a have a very useful addition to your workshop.

Shame you cannot make it to Bristol, it is a very good show. Perhaps next year

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 31, 2015, 07:34:08 PM
Cletus,

Ha ha, I love your story.

Unfortunately, in this day and age, with AIDS, HIV etc. it may have been a safer option.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 31, 2015, 08:11:49 PM
This is another useful way of directing a jet of air to blow away the chips. I find the fishtail nozzle is better than a normal straight nozzle.
The only problem with compressed air is you go back into the house, at the end of the day, with aluminium dandruff.
One day I hope to get the CNC to control the air supply, so I can get a blast of air every 30 seconds or so.


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040847.JPG)
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 09, 2015, 12:41:22 PM
4B   Supercharger Housing (continued)

The machining of the two sets of HP and LP compressor housings was a lengthy exercise in Massive Metal Removal (MMR) Now is the time for some very cautious and precise work to complete the inlet/outlet ports and the cooling fins on all the Compressor Housings. The fins will reduce the compressor housings to 1.5mm wall thickness. One false cut and that part is reduced to a lump of scrap or a pile of misshapen washers.



(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020591.jpg)

Here the roughed out HP and LP Compressor Housings are trial fitted to the Gearcase. It is very rewarding when the ring of bolt holes in the mounting flanges line up perfectly, no oversize holes or filing to fit. Just remember that one flange face is a mirror image of the other.


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020624.jpg)

The inlet and outlet ports on the LP Compressor Housing are massive. The Mercedes designers did not position the inlet and outlet ports symmetrically about the centre line. The pulses or air from the upper and lower halves will therefore arrive at the outlet port at slightly different times. This would appear to be intended to broaden or spread out the flow of pulsations of compressed air.


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020601.jpg)

The inlet and outlet ports of the HP Compressor Housing. You can clearly see the asymmetry of the ports. The front face of the Compressor Housing is taking shape.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020604.jpg)

Some fine work with a 3mm ball nose cutter to create the cooling fins surrounding the bearing pockets at the front of the HP Compressor Housings.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020626.jpg)

Now the fun starts. Machining the cooling fins around the outside of the Compressor Housings. I used a single point cutter to cut each individual fin. It was a nervous time as the wall thickness was now reduced to only 1.5mm and the fins are 1.1mm wide. One false cut and I would have a pile of washers.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040831.jpg)

This is the single point form cutter I used to cut all the cooling fins on the LP and HP Housings. The HHS cutter is mounted in a boring bar holder, which is held in an INT 30 tool holder. The long overhang was necessary to reach to the end of the longer LP Housing. Gentle feeds and speeds prevented tool chatter.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020946.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020947.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020948.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020949.jpg)

Some views of the completed Supercharger housings assembled to the Gearcase. Very pleased with that days work. Time to relax with a hot cup of tea


Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: ozzie46 on August 09, 2015, 02:05:59 PM
BEAUTIFUL !!! :whoohoo: :whoohoo: :whoohoo:
 
 Will be following with great interest.   :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

  Ron
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on August 09, 2015, 03:09:15 PM
Magnificent  :praise2:  :praise2:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: fumopuc on August 09, 2015, 06:40:52 PM
WOW. A really great job. I admire your work.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 09, 2015, 06:46:06 PM
It is my tribute to the excellence of the Mercedes Silver Arrows

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: b.lindsey on August 09, 2015, 07:50:20 PM
Awesome work Mike!!  That supercharger is a thing of beauty!!


Bill
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: stevehuckss396 on August 09, 2015, 09:24:23 PM
I have to agree with the others. That is some mighty fine work your doing.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on September 08, 2015, 04:00:27 PM
5   Roots Blowers, Synchronising Gears and Rotor Lobes

The Mercedes Benz W165, 1.5 Litre, V8 engine was supercharged by an engine driven, two stage Roots Blower or compressor.

Both blowers, the larger first stage low pressure compressor, and the shorter second stage high pressure compressor both run at the same speed, the two pairs of rotor lobes are  the same diameter; but differ in overall length. Both are straight two lobe rotors without twist, which would normally create significant pressure pulses. The Mercedes Benz engineers cleverly designed asymmetry into the positioning of the inlet and outlet ports of each compressor to broaden, or spread out, the flow of pulsations of compressed air.   The pulses of air from the upper and lower paths of each compressor arrive at the outlet port at slightly different times. 

The compressor lobes are essentially a pair of two tooth gears. A pair of gears with only two teeth will not drive each other continuously, so an additional pair of external gears are required to keep the two compressor lobes synchronised. Unlike the synchronising gears, the two compressor lobes must not be allowed to touch anywhere when rotating, otherwise they will quickly seize. Excessive clearance would lead to unacceptable compression losses. The synchronising  gears therefore need to be very precisely made to minimise the clearance between the two lobes and prevent contact at all times.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020907.jpg)

The first job was to make the gear blanks and shafts complete with keyways. Note the special tube nuts.


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020926.jpg)

The overall machining of the gear blanks was completed before the teeth were cut.


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020932.jpg)

Gear cutting underway. The tooth form is 1.0 module. I used involute cutters from China, they seem adequate for the job.


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020941.jpg)

I cut enough synchronising gears for my two engines plus a spare set.


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020880.jpg)

The full size compressor rotor lobes were made by thin wall casting. I decided to machine my lobes from solid. there were made in sections to allow the centres to be hollowed out to reduce weight and help heat dissipation. The individual sections are to be bonded and pinned to the shafts.


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020938.jpg)

The gears and shafts are hand selected for minimum backlash. I found it easier to check the gear meshing with the gears at the wrong end on the blower casing. It was almost impossible to do it inside the gear casing at the back of the blowers. Once the gears and shafts were selected they remain as a matched set forever.


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030108.jpg)

Three lobe sections are bonded to the High Pressure compressor shafts


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030118.jpg)

Five lobe sections are bonded together to form the longer Low Pressure compressor.


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030107.jpg)

The two lobes and their synchronising gears are trial fitted. The lobes are slightly oversize at this stage


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030101.jpg)

The slow process of hand fitting the lobes to the compressor housing begins.


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030096.jpg)

First the rotor lobes are made to fit the housings, with a few thou. clearance, by careful hand scraping and fine 'wet-n-dry' abrasive paper.


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030111.jpg)

Then the clearance between the individual rotor lobes is hand worked so that the two lobes do not contact each other but with the minimum of clearance.


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030113.jpg)

This seems to be a never ending process. Even the minimal backlash in the synchronising gears allows contact between the rotor flanks. Assemble, test, remove contact patch, reassemble, test, remove contact path........repeat........repeat.

And all in the name of model engine making.

The next parts to be made are the external manifolds which join the two compressor housing. That will be all precision machining and a welcome rest from hand fitting.





Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: sco on September 08, 2015, 04:10:33 PM
I admire your patience and your skill!

Why are there a pair of gears on one of the shafts that appear to mesh with a single gear on the other shaft - is this a form of scissor gear to minimise backlash?

Thanks for sharing the build with us,

Simon.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on September 08, 2015, 04:18:34 PM
Hello Simon.
Rear half of the double gear is driven by the engine. The front half is used only to synchronise the two rotor lobes. Therefore the gears only have to see the loads and wear rate associated with one task. That is how important Mercedes Benz considered the precision of the synchronising gears to be.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: sco on September 08, 2015, 04:39:21 PM
Mike,

Understood - thanks very much!

Simon.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: meanxbcoupe on September 12, 2015, 01:06:22 AM
This book is very informative when is comes to blowers.

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=190v57OV7WYC&lpg=PA2&ots=PkcuHMcEUC&dq=street%20supercharging%20by%20pat%20ganahl&pg=PA25#v=onepage&q=street%20supercharging%20by%20pat%20ganahl&f=false
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on September 12, 2015, 06:44:54 AM
Thanks for the information about this book. As you say, it appears to be very informative. I will certainly add it to my library collection

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on January 07, 2016, 04:57:22 PM
6  Inlet Manifold

Note to Jo   No castings were harmed in the making of this part.

I realise it has been a while since I last posted some progress in the build of the Mercedes W165 engine.

This is how I made the inlet manifold which connects the two carburetors to the inlet of the first stage supercharger compressor. On the full size engine the inlet manifold was a magnesium casting. For the 1/3 scale model I carved (machined) the inlet manifold out of a single block of aluminium because no model castings exist.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030594.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030595.jpg)

The first step was to get the aluminium block square and to size. The corner marked in black is the datum.
The internal features were the first thing to be machined. The interior cavity connects the two circular inlet ports to the large rectangular outlet port, which bolts to the first stage of the superchargers.



(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030600.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030605.jpg)

Material was machined from each face in turn until the rough outline of the inlet manifold slowly emerges. You need to plan the machining order carefully, otherwise you can easily machine away the part you need to clamp to for the next operation.



(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030649.jpg)

Here I have completed all the machining operations. Both flanges have been profiled and bolt holes drilled. The next stages are all hand worked with router bits in the Dremmel. I prefer to use a flexible extension for this type of work. Hand carving aluminium is very satisfying but it takes time and you get completely covered with aluminium dandruff.



(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1050111.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1050113.jpg)

Here is the inlet manifold after most of the hand working has been completed. There is still some areas which need a little more detail work.
The surface still needs to be sand blasted and coloured to resemble a chromated magnesium casting.
I need to take the sand blast cabinet into the garden (away from the machinery) so will have to wait until the weather improves, before I can do that stage.



(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1050136.jpg)

This is a trial fit of the inlet manifold to the first stage supercharger housing. Some small areas still need some tidying up.

Thank you for looking

Mike




Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on January 07, 2016, 06:49:26 PM
That's some splendid carving  :praise2:  :praise2:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: vcutajar on January 07, 2016, 06:57:31 PM
WOW and double WOW.

Vince
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: kettrinboy on January 07, 2016, 07:00:04 PM
Hi Mike
just caught up with this build and very impressed so far , this will be a model engineering masterpiece when its finished , the added history just shows how advanced engine technology in the racing world was all those years ago.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: petertha on January 07, 2016, 07:50:03 PM
Wow! Maybe I missed it, but what material was chosen for the lobes?
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on January 08, 2016, 11:07:32 AM
Thanks everyone for your comments. They are always appreciated and provide the encouragement to continue posting progress.

In answer to your question Petertha. The supercharger rotors on the original engine were fabricated as a very thin wall box, with numerous cross bulkheads, out of a 3% nickel steel (VOM 35). I do not have details of how the rotor was manufactured because, even after 75 years, Mercedes remain very secretive about their Silver Arrows cars and engines. I assume that nickel steel was used on account of strength required to resist centrifugal forces and for thermal expansion considerations.

For my 1/3 scale model I chose to construct the rotors out of aluminium alloy (HE30 TF). You can see in part 5 how I constructed the hollow structure out of a number of hollowed out sections. The wall thickness on the model rotor is between 1.0 and 1.5mm thick. The centrifugal forces on the 1/3 scale rotor are insignificant compared to the full size and I have provided generous clearance between the rotor tips and the housings. I hope and trust that nothing 'rubs' when the engine eventually runs.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: b.lindsey on January 08, 2016, 11:50:00 AM
Even triple WOW!!! That is some amazing profiling work Mike. The supercharger is a work of art all by itself!!

Bill
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Hans on January 08, 2016, 02:36:33 PM
Very impressive, Mike. I like how your Dremelizing produced a surface that looks like a casting.

~Hans
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on January 08, 2016, 03:26:46 PM
Dremelizing,  that's a new word for me but it describes the process well.

This is the olive shaped tungsten carbide bit I used in the Dremel. I run the Dremel at it's slowest speed and let the cutter bounce off the surface as I move it from side to side. The cutter is very sharp and long lasting, I was surprised, as it was part of a very inexpensive set made in China and bought via evilbay. I follow the Dremel work with some wire wool or Scotchbrite.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1050138.jpg)


Mike



Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: cwelkie on January 08, 2016, 03:48:37 PM
Mike you are a sculptor and a model engineer.  This is a phenomenal display of not only replica design but also 3-D visualization while "releasing" the end product from its raw material. And you make it sound and look so easy ...
Simply beautiful!
Charlie
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: fumopuc on January 09, 2016, 08:07:31 PM
Mike, WOW. I like your Dremel casting style.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on January 09, 2016, 08:45:14 PM
Achim
I visited Munich last year, great city.
I was surprised to find one of the  fabulous W125 Silver Arrows cars on display in the MB showroom on the corner of Odeonsplatz. I was even more surprised to find they were still telling the old fairy story about scraping all the white paint off the achieve the 750Kg weight limit and that is how they became silver. Great car, great story, if only it were true.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030517.jpg)

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on June 02, 2016, 10:19:40 PM
7     Transfer Manifold

I realise I am falling way behind with this build log, steady build progress is being made but I am way behind with the postings. I will attempt to catch up

The last major part of the two stage supercharger to be made is the horse shoe shaped transfer manifold which connects the larger low pressure compressor to the smaller high pressure stage. On the full size engine the transfer manifold was on integral parts of the two supercharger housing, which required very elaborate castings in magnesium alloy. I am machining my engine from solid billets of aluminium as there are no castings available. I am attempting to machine a very 3 dimensional object from 2 dimensional drawings on 3 axis milling machine. I needed to carefully consider how to machine what is basically a curved hollow tube and how to make it fit the existing supercharger casings.

To help me visualise the transfer manifold, a friend made a Solidworks 3D model from my drawings and quickly 3D printed something for me to play with.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030139.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030138.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030141.jpg)

This printed part was a great help in planning the machining steps. The transfer manifold consists a left and a right half, joined at the centre by a large pipe clamp. I decided to machine both sides joined together in order to maintain their correct alignment and to separate the left and right halves after all the machining was complete. I was able to design the hollow transfer manifold as two hollow shells to be bolted together with hidden screws. I would use the same grade of aluminium alloy for the manifold and for the fixing screws.


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030122.jpg)

Here you can see the first stage of machining the internal contours of the rear half of the transfer manifold. You can see the small lands which are designed to accept the hidden screws which will hold the two halves together. The process is the same as before, start with a big block of aluminium and convert most of it into small chips and hopefully an engine part will emerge.


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030127.jpg)

Part of the outside profile was also machined without disturbing the set-up. The wall thickness of the shell is about 1.5mm.


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030136.jpg)

The rear half of the transfer manifold is offered up to the high and low pressure compressors. So far, so good


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030295.jpg)

The front half of the transfer manifold was machined in a similar manner to the first. The two halves were glued and bolted together using bolts made from the same material as the manifold. A lot of hand filing was then required to complete the outside shape of the assembled transfer manifold. The fixing screws blended in and were lost from view during this process. The low pressure (the far side) of the manifold was a sandwich of three parts while the high pressure side was made from two halves.


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030298.jpg)

The supercharger cooling fins were carefully filed away from the two compressor housings where the transfer manifold would eventually fit.


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030300.jpg)

The transfer manifold is made to fit snugly onto the two compressor housing before the mounting bolt holes are drilled.


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030343.jpg)

M3 cap head bolts are partially buried in the mounting flanges.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030344.jpg)

The left and right halves have been separated at the centre point. The rubber band was used to hold the two halves in position while the mounting flanges were being worked on.
I was very relieved to have got this far without too many problems. The transfer manifold is a very prominent feature at the front of the engine and therefore needs to look right.  I would not have wanted to redo that part.
Time to relax and enjoy a nice cup of tea.


Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: zeeprogrammer on June 02, 2016, 11:12:57 PM
That is awesome!
Beautiful work.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: b.lindsey on June 03, 2016, 12:39:30 AM
Beautiful Mike. Totally awesome work!!

Bill
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on June 03, 2016, 02:35:51 AM
Lot's of good Learnin there!!!    :ThumbsUp:

Thanks for posting that Mike, it's great to watch you work!

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: gbritnell on June 03, 2016, 02:59:13 AM
Some superlative carving there! It's great watching the pieces spring out of a block of metal. I can appreciate every cut you make.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jo on June 03, 2016, 08:39:17 AM
That's looking really impressive Mike, I am looking forward to seeing it at Guildford in a few weeks time 8)

Talking of attending the Guildford show: It doesn't look like our mutual friend will have anything new to show again this year  :disappointed:. He is currently up to his arm pits in Engineering Microscopes  :headscratch:

I tried to encourage him back on to the straight and narrow by forcing him to get out his model engine casting sets but it didn't work  :ShakeHead: The best I could do was confiscate a set and bring them home to make them feel wanted and loved.

Jo
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: evildrome on June 03, 2016, 02:49:17 PM
Mike,

 Once you had the 3D printed part, did you consider doing a lost wax of it instead of machining it?

Cheers,

 Wilson.


Ps. Amazing work BTW.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on June 03, 2016, 04:01:30 PM
Jo,
I am also looking forward to the Guildford show, it's one of my favorites. No surprises from our mutual friend then, he does love his 'wheeling and dealing' just like Del Boy.

Wilson,
Yes, lost wax casting is a possibility. Unfortunately I do not possess a lost wax foundry and the only commercial foundry (that I know of) who are prepared to do one-offs for model engineers, in this country, have a £500 minimum order. Clearly they do not really want the model engineers work. At that price, you would need to be absolutely certain of the correct allowances for wax shrinkage, post burn-out investment shrinkage and of course the cast metal shrinkage. It can quickly become a very expensive learning curve to determine these allowances.

For those reasons I chose to machine everything from the solid billet. I know the properties of the material I work with and I control the dimensions of the finished part. The only other cost is my time and I provide that for free, for the enjoyment. Besides, I can claim the model is ALL my own work.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: fumopuc on June 03, 2016, 08:46:14 PM
Hi Mike, thanks for showing your excellent work here.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Steamer5 on June 03, 2016, 11:25:54 PM
Hi Mike,
 Have been really enjoying your work.....outstanding !

Make's this lesser mortal think about selling up the workshop as there's not enough time to left to get close to being in your class.....still like you say it's all for enjoyment at what ever our level.

On the lost wax casting front, have those guys not worked out that there is a large potential market out there who may just be ready to take the plunge if the costs seems reasonable........or maybe there is somebody who does this as a hobbie & would like to move into full time .

Looking forward to the next installment

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Zephyrin on June 03, 2016, 11:32:58 PM
These first parts are absolutely amazing, as is the whole project, wow !
carving from the solid is fabulous, it really shows first class skill...
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on June 04, 2016, 12:11:16 PM
Thank you to all who have commented on the latest installment of this ongoing project.

Just remember:
Experience is directly proportional to the height of your scrap pile.
You learn more from your own mistakes than from others.
But never forget that experience also allows you to make the same mistakes again, but with more confidence.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jo on June 04, 2016, 12:25:13 PM
Just remember:
Experience is directly proportional to the height of your scrap pile.
You learn more from your own mistakes than from others.
But never forget that experience also allows you to make the same mistakes again, but with more confidence.

Which reminds me Mike :embarassed: I was going to take along a box of " the bits that didn't make it on the model" to the Guildford show. If you feel brave we could add some of your examples.

Jo

P.S. Jason can't provide any because he never does anything wrong  :mischief:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on June 04, 2016, 01:00:55 PM
Thank you to all who have commented on the latest installment of this ongoing project.

Just remember:
Experience is directly proportional to the height of your scrap pile.
You learn more from your own mistakes than from others.
But never forget that experience also allows you to make the same mistakes again, but with more confidence.

Mike

 :lolb:

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on June 04, 2016, 08:08:14 PM
Some more impressive carving  :praise2:  :praise2: Until you try you don't know what you can do  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on June 04, 2016, 10:43:58 PM
Quote
Just remember:
Experience is directly proportional to the height of your scrap pile.
You learn more from your own mistakes than from others.
But never forget that experience also allows you to make the same mistakes again, but with more confidence.

Been there, done that ..... and continue to do so   :ShakeHead:  :facepalm: .... though I still have to get around to do so with model engines - ... it looks like I'm getting closer to start doing so in that department too   :noidea:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on June 05, 2016, 09:35:12 AM
though I still have to get around to do so with model engines - ... it looks like I'm getting closer to start doing so in that department too   :noidea:

Life always looks a whole lot better from the door into a model engineers workshop. Keep us posted

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: sco on June 05, 2016, 11:31:28 AM
I have some pictures of the camshaft, crank and rods if they are any help when you get to those parts.  I could probably also get measurements if needed.

Simon.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on June 05, 2016, 11:47:11 AM
Simon,.

Do you really have photos of the crank, camshaft and rods for the W165? I would appreciate if you would share them with me.

I used to be able to obtain a (very) limited number of photos of the W165 engine restoration work at Fellbach through Christof Knetch and Gert Straub but that source has dried up. How good are your connections with the Classic Centre at Fellbach? There are a number of photos in their collection that I would dearly like.

My e-mail address is in my profile information. Perhaps it would be a better to correspond there, rather than clutter up the forum.

I'm already getting excited

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: sco on June 05, 2016, 12:35:23 PM
Pretty sure these are 165 parts:

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on June 05, 2016, 01:02:05 PM
OOOOOOH!!!    Hirth joints, and silver lined bronze bearing shells..........that'll keep you out of trouble Mike!    I like it!!!!

Thanks for sharing that SCO!

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on June 05, 2016, 01:05:46 PM
Ahhh Desmodromic valve gear as well!!!....

http://www.cycleworld.com/2014/04/25/cw-tech-valve-control-history-and-why-ducati-is-committed-to-desmodromics

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: sco on June 05, 2016, 01:17:51 PM
I know - that Hirth crank gets me going too!

Simon.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on June 05, 2016, 02:10:13 PM
Mike, as I recall....perhaps incorrectly, you have one of the larger Aciera mills?   F2 or F3?

That would be the perfect weapon for the Hirth joints I think....

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on June 05, 2016, 02:26:29 PM
Hello Simon,

Thanks for posting those very interesting photos. I am not sure what to make of them. I'm not sure they are parts for the W165, my guess is the W196 of the Stirling Moss/Fangio era.


I am working to MB blueprints liberated by British Intelligence investigators in 1947. These show an engine with a one piece crankshaft with split main and split con-rod roller bearings. Brian Perkins has found reference to a special Hirth crankshaft being made by Mahle for the W165 with one piece conrods to overcome possible weakness in the big end bearings. Could this be what you have found?

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040788.jpg)



The camshaft in your photo, is clearly a four cylinder Desmo camshaft. We know that Rudolf Uhlenhaut designed the 2.5 litre W196 as a staight eight with two banks of four cylinders. As far as I know the W196 was the first venture by Mercedes into Desmo valve gear. My guess is the photos are of parts from that engine. I could be wrong, I am not that knowledgeable about the post war Mercedes cars.

Thanks again for posting these photos. I appreciate your help.

Research is all about turning over every leaf and analyzing what you find, some days are diamonds, some days are stone.

Cheers

Mike

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on June 05, 2016, 02:35:52 PM
Hello Dave,

My mills are small Emco F1 table top milling machines. I have the option to turn the quill through 90 degrees to give a horizontal mode.

From my previous post you can see that I have a one piece crankshaft in mind for my W165 engine, based on the evidence from the available MB blueprints. The one-piece crankshaft does have a Hirth coupling at either end. At the rear the flywheel is attached via a Hirth coupling as is the supercharger drive at the front.

There is no getting away from the Hirth coupling on engines designed in the pre-war era.

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on June 05, 2016, 02:46:39 PM
Hey Mike,

That looks like a "conventional"  pivoting lever follower, is that correct?

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on June 05, 2016, 02:51:49 PM
Hello Dave,

That's how I read the blueprint.

Incidentally, there are two inlet and two exhaust valves per cylinder.

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: sco on June 05, 2016, 09:17:24 PM
Hello Simon,

Thanks for posting those very interesting photos. I am not sure what to make of them. I'm not sure they are parts for the W165, my guess is the W196 of the Stirling Moss/Fangio era.


I am working to MB blueprints liberated by British Intelligence investigators in 1947. These show an engine with a one piece crankshaft with split main and split con-rod roller bearings. Brian Perkins has found reference to a special Hirth crankshaft being made by Mahle for the W165 with one piece conrods to overcome possible weakness in the big end bearings. Could this be what you have found?
(http://i901.photobucket.com/albums/ac218/v8vixen1/P1040788.jpg)



The camshaft in your photo, is clearly a four cylinder Desmo camshaft. We know that Rudolf Uhlenhaut designed the 2.5 litre W196 as a staight eight with two banks of four cylinders. As far as I know the W196 was the first venture by Mercedes into Desmo valve gear. My guess is the photos are of parts from that engine. I could be wrong, I am not that knowledgeable about the post war Mercedes cars.

Thanks again for posting these photos. I appreciate your help.

Research is all about turning over every leaf and analyzing what you find, some days are diamonds, some days are stone.

Cheers

Mike

Mike,

It's easily possible that these are W196 parts rather than W165 - apologies for leading you up the garden path.  They were in a display area at work - I'll check the labelling tomorrow if they are still there - it could be that they are miss-labelled but more likely I have got my numbers mixed up.

Apologies again,

Simon.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on June 05, 2016, 09:45:23 PM
Hello Simon,

There is absolutely no need to apologise. Any numbering system rather than a name is bound to lead to a confusion one day.

I am led to believe that MB are re-manufacturing many parts for the W196 engines because they have used all the available spare parts at the Classic Centre in Fellbach. It could be you have some of the used components in your display area.

Thanks for thinking of me in the first place.

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: sco on June 06, 2016, 01:19:53 PM
Mike,

I checked again and the label with the parts says;

Mercedes W165
Crankshaft and Conrod
(both were built into the W165 after the Tripolli Race)

So I think you are right about the camshaft, but if the label is correct then these are indeed W165 parts.

Hope that helps,

Simon.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on June 06, 2016, 02:57:43 PM
I checked again and the label with the parts says;

Mercedes W165
Crankshaft and Conrod
(both were built into the W165 after the Tripolli Race)

Hello Simon,

This is getting to be very interesting.

The first two W165's were built in eight months during the winter of 1938/39 and competed in their one and only race in Tripoli in May 1939. It was widely anticipated that the next Grand Prix engine formula change would be to 1.5 litre supercharged or 4.5 litre un-supercharged. History shows that Mercedes Benz continued their race car developments during 1940 and the early part of 1941, while the rest of Europe was in flames. It is reasonable to assume they would put a lot of effort into developing the 1.5 litre W165 as far as possible to be ready for the new formula. The new formula did come into effect in 1946 but Mercedes Benz were then in no position to compete.

Brian Perkins has discovered a reference to a special Hirth crankshaft being made by Mahle for the W165 with one piece conrods to overcome possible weakness in the big end bearings. No further details have been found. Perhaps you have unearthed the missing evidence. Now that would be interesting!!!!

There is one way we can easily check if the hardware would fit the W165. The Hirth crankshaft would most likely be a drop in replacement for the older one piece crankshaft, therefore the leading dimensions would be the same. The W165  has a bore and stroke of 64 x 58. So the distance between the main and big end centres should be 29mm. Also the overall diameter of the crankwebs should be 200mm and the distance between the con rod bearing centres should be 142mm.

If this all checks out, I would appreciate if you could make some more photos of the bits, square on and side on so that I can draw them up in 1/3 scale.

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on June 06, 2016, 03:01:50 PM
This is getting interesting!!!!!

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on June 06, 2016, 03:04:28 PM
Even more interesting than an interesting thing

Baldric
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: sco on June 06, 2016, 03:15:44 PM
I checked again and the label with the parts says;

Mercedes W165
Crankshaft and Conrod
(both were built into the W165 after the Tripolli Race)

Hello Simon,

There is one way we can easily check if the hardware would fit the W165. The Hirth crankshaft would most likely be a drop in replacement for the older one piece crankshaft, therefore the leading dimensions would be the same. The W165  has a bore and stroke of 64 x 58. So the distance between the main and big end centres should be 29mm. Also the overall diameter of the crankwebs should be 200mm and the distance between the con rod bearing centres should be 142mm.

If this all checks out, I would appreciate if you could make some more photos of the bits, square on and side on so that I can draw them up in 1/3 scale.

Cheers

Mike

OK I can measure the od of the crank webs and the conrod bearing centres but the distance between main and big end centres might be more of a challenge.

Simon.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on June 06, 2016, 03:28:14 PM

Quote

OK I can measure the od of the crank webs and the conrod bearing centres but the distance between main and big end centres might be more of a challenge.

Simon.

If these items were to fit the W165 the main to big end centre distance would be 29.0mm However if they are from the W196 then the main to big end distance would be much bigger at 34.4mm. You should be able to eyeball a guess/ estimate between the two

Cheers

Mike
(http://i901.photobucket.com/albums/ac218/v8vixen1/model%20maker.jpg)
      Except I don't smoke a pipe or have a white mustache.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on June 06, 2016, 03:33:37 PM
...and your model is bigger....   8)

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on June 06, 2016, 03:44:10 PM
She, says size is everything

Mike :embarassed:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on June 06, 2016, 04:04:02 PM
....not goin there......


Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: sco on June 06, 2016, 04:48:56 PM
Ok this is what I have measured:

Conrod
Big end bore: 68mm
Small end bore: 26mm
Centre distance: 145mm

Crank
Web dia: 144.9mm
Throw: ~39mm

Simon.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on June 06, 2016, 06:09:37 PM
Hello Simon,

This one will not lay down easily. The mystery continues.

I have found the reference to the Mahle built up Hirth Crankshaft. It only says that MB were considering the alternative as a way to use standard one piece roller bearings in the big end to improve their current design of split caged rollers which had a very short life. There were no test results reported other than noting  Mahle built up crankshafts had been used by Auto Union for years with complete success.

I could maybe live with the con-rod dimensions, they are quite close to what I have measured off the copies of copies of old blueprints, which can obviously lead to errors.

Are you sure of the crank throw? 39mm x 2 = 78mm; which would be more appropriate for something like a 5 litre engine rather than a tiny 1.5 litre engine. The distance between the centres would need to be 29.0mm for the W165.

Are you sure you estimated the overall crank web diameter rather than measuring the distance across the web?

I confess to making an error myself, the overall diameter of the crank web should be more like 168mm than the 200mm I said before.

Is there anyone you can talk to regarding the provenance of those w165 parts?

Keep digging and we will get to the bottom of this one.

Cheers

Mike

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: sco on June 06, 2016, 08:51:02 PM
Mike,

I'll re-check the throw tomorrow but I'm pretty sure it's closer to 40mm than 30mm.  I will admit to when trying to measure the web diameter to just measuring across the widest part of the crank so I'll have another go at that tomorrow too.

Simon.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on June 06, 2016, 11:14:45 PM
Hello Simon,

I have been able to do a bit of photo analysis on the two images you sent yesterday. By using your measurements and comparing them with the photos, I conclude the throw is 40mm ish (just as you measured) and the overall diameter of the whole crankshaft would be 165mm ish, which compares well with overall diameter of 168mm, I measured from the blueprint.

So the con rod and every thing else matches with what would be expected for the W165, everything that is except for the 40mm throw. Even that oil catcher grove around the main bearing matches W165 practice.

The reason I am at this like a terrier, is because the use of a built up (Hirth) crank and commercial one piece needle roller bearings may be the only logical way for me to build the model crankshaft. A one piece crankshaft would need hardened journals and hardened half shells for all the mains and big end bearings. I do not have the equipment to do that sort of precision grinding of the bearing faces. Even Mercedes were having trouble with this area. 

I would need to base my design on the hardware you have available (even if we cannot resolve the 40mm throw).

Is there any chance you could take some more photos, square on and side on? Perhaps the two sections will pull apart for the photos.

Thanks for your patience and help.

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on June 07, 2016, 07:44:45 AM
May be worth laying a rule or tape next to the parts if you do take any more photos.

Better still pop the bits in your pocket and come down to Guildford in a couple of weeks ;)
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: sco on June 07, 2016, 07:48:13 AM
Mike,

No need for bump - I'm on it today so you just need to be patient  ;)

Was going to take the pictures on a piece of A4 to give you a size reference as well as a ruler,

Simon.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Steamer5 on June 07, 2016, 09:02:13 AM
Mike,
 Sounds like you need to jump in the car & visit Simon! Can be what no more than 3 or 4 hours...... :stickpoke:


Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on June 07, 2016, 11:42:29 PM
Hello Kerrin,

It's more like only 2 hours by car. However when you consider the work they are involved in, I would expect the security to be tighter than a ducks backside.... watertight. They would not want an undesirable model engine maker within a mile. Ha ha

Simon has already posted some excellent photographs which show the Hirth coupling extremely well. They should be enough for our purposes. A big thank you to Simon.

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: 1dbweldor on June 12, 2016, 05:31:58 PM
I have a friend that retired from R&d Mercedes some years ago and moved to the US. Would you mind if I had him look at these pictures and see what he thinks and knows of these engines? I know he spent his adult lifetime with MB and probably the most knowledgeable person I know on engines.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on June 12, 2016, 06:36:25 PM
Hello 1dbweldor,
Please go ahead and ask, we all would welcome the opinion from someone with the knowledge.
We are coming to the opinion that both the camshaft and crankshaft components are all from the post-war Mercedes W196.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: michelko on February 06, 2017, 12:13:59 PM
7     Transfer Manifold

I realise I am falling way behind with this build log, steady build progress is being made but I am way behind with the postings. I will attempt to catch up

The last major part of the two stage supercharger to be made is the horse shoe shaped transfer manifold which connects the larger low pressure compressor to the smaller high pressure stage. On the full size engine the transfer manifold was on integral parts of the two supercharger housing, which required very elaborate castings in magnesium alloy. I am machining my engine from solid billets of aluminium as there are no castings available. I am attempting to machine a very 3 dimensional object from 2 dimensional drawings on 3 axis milling machine. I needed to carefully consider how to machine what is basically a curved hollow tube and how to make it fit the existing supercharger casings.

To help me visualise the transfer manifold, a friend made a Solidworks 3D model from my drawings and quickly 3D printed something for me to play with.

(http://i901.photobucket.com/albums/ac218/v8vixen1/P1030139.jpg)

(http://i901.photobucket.com/albums/ac218/v8vixen1/P1030138.jpg)

(http://i901.photobucket.com/albums/ac218/v8vixen1/P1030141.jpg)

This printed part was a great help in planning the machining steps. The transfer manifold consists a left and a right half, joined at the centre by a large pipe clamp. I decided to machine both sides joined together in order to maintain their correct alignment and to separate the left and right halves after all the machining was complete. I was able to design the hollow transfer manifold as two hollow shells to be bolted together with hidden screws. I would use the same grade of aluminium alloy for the manifold and for the fixing screws.


(http://i901.photobucket.com/albums/ac218/v8vixen1/P1030122.jpg)

Here you can see the first stage of machining the internal contours of the rear half of the transfer manifold. You can see the small lands which are designed to accept the hidden screws which will hold the two halves together. The process is the same as before, start with a big block of aluminium and convert most of it into small chips and hopefully an engine part will emerge.


(http://i901.photobucket.com/albums/ac218/v8vixen1/P1030127.jpg)

Part of the outside profile was also machined without disturbing the set-up. The wall thickness of the shell is about 1.5mm.


(http://i901.photobucket.com/albums/ac218/v8vixen1/P1030136.jpg)

The rear half of the transfer manifold is offered up to the high and low pressure compressors. So far, so good


(http://i901.photobucket.com/albums/ac218/v8vixen1/P1030295.jpg)
The front half of the trasfer manifold was machined in a similar manner to the first. The two halves were glued and bolted together using bolts made from the same material as the manifold. A lot of hand filing was then required to complete the outside shape of the assembled transfer manifold. The fixing screws blended in and were lost from view during this process. The low pressure (the far side) of the manifold was a sandwich of three parts while the high pressure side was made from two halves.


(http://i901.photobucket.com/albums/ac218/v8vixen1/P1030298.jpg)
The supercharger cooling fins were carefully filed away from the two compressor housings where the transfer manifold would eventually fit.


(http://i901.photobucket.com/albums/ac218/v8vixen1/P1030300.jpg)
The transfer manifold is made to fit snugly onto the two compressor housing before the mounting bolt holes are drilled.


(http://i901.photobucket.com/albums/ac218/v8vixen1/P1030343.jpg)
M3 cap head bolts are partially buried in the mounting flanges.

(http://i901.photobucket.com/albums/ac218/v8vixen1/P1030344.jpg)
The left and right halves have been separated at the centre point. The rubber band was used to hold the two halves in position while the mounting flanges were being worked on.
I was very relieved to have got this far without too many problems. The transfer manifold is a very prominent feature at the front of the engine and therefore needs to look right.  I would not have wanted to redo that part.
Time to relax and enjoy a nice cup of tea.

Mike this is an awesome build thumbs up.
Can you please tell me which glue you used? I thoght about this procedure on the bugatti waterpump.
Thanks michael
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 06, 2017, 03:04:15 PM
I used JB Weld epoxy and numerous small screws to hold the transfer manifold together. I made the screws (M2.0) from the same grade of aluminium as the manifold. The screws have long cylindrical heads which stick out above the manifold. You could easily do the same for your coolant pump.

The screws hold the parts together and the epoxy seals the joint. I then file the aluminium screw heads to blend in with the manifold. The screw heads become invisible.

I would prefer to use a two pack polyurethane instead of epoxy, it is slightly more flexible. Unfortunately, I cannot find any in small quantities in tubes.

Can you tell me about the aluminium solder you used to fabricate the Bugatti crankcase. What type do you use and there there any problems with it?

Hope you get the Bugatti running sweetly soon.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: michelko on February 06, 2017, 06:54:26 PM
Mike i used a rubbing solder. You have to melt the solder u d then scratch tith metalbrush or an screwdriver tip in the liquid solder. This rubbing breaks the oxide layer.
Unfortunately the solder has a different colour then the aluminium. Next time i will weld it.

Michael
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 06, 2017, 07:08:35 PM
Thanks Michael,

That solder sounds like our 'Technoweld'.
The guy demonstrating it at model shows is very clever and makes it look so easy. I am not so clever.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on February 06, 2017, 09:31:18 PM
Not to pester you Mike, but has your build been put on the backburner ?

I will not blame you if that is the case as I haven't been in my shop since July (too busy trying to make a living) ....

Best wishes

Per
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 06, 2017, 10:50:10 PM
Hello Per

The W165 is proceeding, but at a slow pace. I have had some very important family matters to attend to, which takes first priority.

I am actually further ahead than the build log would suggest. These days, I never seem to have spare time to write the build log or work at all the other things I would prefer to do.

Thanks

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: 90LX_Notch on February 07, 2017, 01:11:40 AM
Incredible work Mike.

-Bob
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 07, 2017, 10:05:03 AM
Thanks Bob,

At least it is easier to see and touch than your tiny Tiny

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on February 07, 2017, 10:52:33 AM
Hello Mike

I certainly understand that you prioritize family and also that it takes quite a bit of time to post a build log compared to just posting comments. It took me at least as much time to prepare a log with pictures post as the actual time I machined the parts on the few I have done so far.

Best wishes

Per
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 07, 2017, 11:31:37 AM
I am happy to say that things are improving for me on a personal front  and I can now devote more time to this build log.

The past two years have been a very difficult time for me. Thankfully that is almost over and the family can return to normality, whatever that is. During the hard times I would often run to my workshop and immerse myself in a little 'metal therapy' for an hour or two. There is nothing quite like it. Machining requires such total concentration and the exclusion of all outside pressures. What a great hobby we all share.

Another factor influencing the build log was the considerable amount of time require to prepare the images using 'Photo....it'. It was never the easiest or friendliest package to use and now they are issuing ransom threats to extort large sums of money from it's clients. Fortunately Ade has come to our rescue and provided MEM members with a very quick and easy to use alternative. Thanks for that Ade, much appreciated.

So on with the Mercedes W165 Build Log
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 07, 2017, 12:20:37 PM
Part 8     Superchargers Assembled

Here are some photos of the assembled two stage supercharger for the Mercedes Benz W165,   1.5 litre Grand Prix engine. There is still some detail work to do but I now know that the rotors fit and rotate freely and the various inlet and transfer manifolds all fit and connect where required.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040696~0.JPG)
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040695~0.JPG)
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040697~0.JPG)

You can see I have attached a pair of modified Walbro carburetors to the inlet manifold. I intend to replace their diaphragm fuel pumps with an engine driven fuel pump as the build proceeds. Those black pipes which snake all over the top of the blowers is part of the oil scavenge system. Excess oil is sucked away from the full size engine's rotor bearings by one of the many engine driven scavenge pumps.



(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040709.JPG)

In this overhead shot of the two stage blower. You can just make out the joint lines between the transfer manifold shells. The right hand (HP) manifold is in two parts and the left (LP) is in three parts. The wall thickness of the shells is about 1.5mm. The screws holding the manifold shells together were made from the same material as the shells and are filed flush to blend in perfectly. I have still to make the big pipe clamp which joins the left and right halves together.



(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040702~0.JPG)

The gears at the rear keep the two rotor lobes synchronized and prevent them touching. During the manufacturing process something has become magnetized. Could be the shafts or the keys or the nuts or either of the gears. The gears mesh perfectly and run smoothly but unfortunately sometimes small metal particles are attracted to the gears and interfere with their meshing. I need to find a way of permanently demagnetizing the gears. So I am looking out for one of those demagnetizing (degausing) gizmos that we used to use to clean the heads on reel to reel tape records way back in the 1960's.


The next part of the build log will describe the machining and manufacture of the Crankcases


Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: sco on July 07, 2017, 12:37:45 PM
Awesome stuff Mike!

Every year the Benz classic team come to the factory after the FoS to give us a private show and tell - they are very approachable so if you have some questions I can try and ask them next year.

Simon.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Stuart on July 07, 2017, 02:43:00 PM
Mike great work

Demagnetisers

I have one shown bottom left at this site they are small fits on your hand but it does the job, after all they are only a ac fed coil

https://www.cousinsuk.com/category/demagnetizers

It will not do a 150mm dia three jaw chuck  8)

Stuart
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on July 07, 2017, 02:50:54 PM
Incredible and beautiful.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on July 07, 2017, 04:25:15 PM
Mike!

I am so glad to see you back at this build!   It's inspiration!    I'm in a shop overhaul mode at the moment, so more space, and better utilization of it is under way...just got rid of 1000 pounds of stock that hasn't seen the light of day in 20 years....made up some space and more clean out to come

Keep em coming!    I have to get my head wrapped around the whole photo(*#(*@ thing.....trust me I have a LOT of pictures over there...

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 07, 2017, 06:38:03 PM
Hello Simon,

Mercedes Benz are usually reluctant to give away information that would help builders of replica engines and replica cars bearing the three pointed star. A few years ago they got the German Customs and Excise to impound several well made replicas of the famous Gull Wing sports car. The replicas were being passed off as the real deal, they were confiscated and ordered to be crushed. My model engine is 1/3 scale and could hardly be passed off as a full size M-B engine.

I could not afford to go to the Goodwood Festival of Speed this year, so missed the chance of meeting the Benz Classic Team, who look after and run the W165 . How well do you know Gert Straub (head of the engineering dept) or Manfred Oechsle ( the W165 engineer)? I would dearly like to get some modern photos of the Camshaft Drive Gear Chest at the rear of the engine and also photos of the Water Pump at the right front. Is there any chance you could ask Benz Classic on my behalf?

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: fumopuc on July 07, 2017, 08:00:19 PM
Hi Mike good to see you back in the shop. The engine pictures, impressive like always.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Art K on July 08, 2017, 02:54:14 PM
Mike,
The work looks great. I saw some of the cylinders & such from the Guilford show photos, very impressive. I am in the process of trying to decide what to do with Photo....et. I don't object to paying just putting my info out on an insecure site.
Art
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 14, 2017, 05:05:28 PM
Part 9        Crankcase

I was able to find a longitudinal and a traverse cross section drawings of the W165 engine in my copy of the British Intelligence Report number 1755 published in 1948. From these two cross section drawings I produced the 1/3 scale drawings in AutoCAD, from which I could work. The W165 crankcase was cast in magnesium and was of a fairly conventional 90 degree V8 layout with the added interest of the supercharger and accessories drives at the front end. At the rear, two outriggers bolted the engine to the chassis tubes The crankcase was quite robust in construction, which is probably due in part to the use of welded and fabricated cylinder blocks. The crankcase has to provide most of the engine's stiffness.

Another factor may be the speed in which the new engine and a new, smaller, race car was produced. The history books tell us that Mercedes undertook this feat of engineering in just eight months. Even working round the clock, it did not leave much time to design a completely new engine, produce the foundry patterns and commit them to the foundry to be cast in super lightweight magnesium. In order to achieve these time scales, the Mercedes engineers would have relied heavily on the existing designs and drawings for their highly successful 3 litre V12 engines. The new engine was reduced in length from 12 to 8 cylinders and slightly reduced in scale. The engineers also decided to include a significant bulge on the left hand side of the crankcase block. I assume this was intended to house the multiple oil pressure and oil scavenge pumps, which were favored in those days. In the event, the bulge was never used and the oil pumps were eventually located low down in the dry sump. A case of having to live with an early engineering decision?

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P10408~4.jpg)




I have no foundry facilities, so the decision was made to machine the crankcase from solid billets of 6084 T6 (HE30 TF) aluminium. I decided to make the crankcase in two halves, to be joined together on the centre line, by five M5 steel bolts passing through the main bearing webs. The heads of the bolts could be buried and later capped out of sight by aluminium plugs. The  two part construction allowed the undercuts inside the crankcase sides to be machined, these features would have been next to impossible to achieve if a single piece billet had be used.

The overall length of the 1/3 scale crankcase was 192 mm, the maximum X axis travel of my EMCO F1 mill was 200 mm (8 inches). With some very careful positioning of the billets, I would be able to machine both ends of the blocks and use a 8mm diameter cutter. A very tight fit, but do-able. 

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060854.JPG)

I realised there would be the need for multiple set-ups and numerous machining operations, so the first item to be made was a fixture plate with both dowel pins and the cross bolts to locate and relocate the billets. The fixture plate could be mounted at any necessary angle by using pairs of bolt-on angle plates.



(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040588.jpg)

A start was made by accurately drilling the bolt holes and dowel pin holes in all of the aluminium billets. Each block measured 8" x 4" x 2" and weighed 2.6 kg (5.8 lbs). The billets were then transferred to the fixture plate, which remained in place on the mill for the entire duration of the crankcase manufacture.




(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040592.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040593.jpg)

The machining started by milling out the interior detail of the crankcase. I used a 8 mm ball cutter to pocket out the space between the main bearing webs. The ball mill produced nice looking fillets where the cross webs meet the crankcase sides. The centre bearing and rearmost bearing webs are slightly wider than the intermediates.




(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040595.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040596.jpg)

The 45 degree slope under the cylinder face and the pocket for the supercharger gear drive appear next. The billet is beginning to reduce in weight already.




(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040598.jpg)

The semi-circular space for the main bearing is roughed out along the entire length of the embrio crankcase. The bearing locations will be line bored at a later date when the two sides of the crankcase are finally bolted together and all the removable bearing caps have been made and fitted. This delay will give the machined blocks time to stress relieve and settle. All that is required to do now is to repeat the above for the opposite side of the case and then again for my second crankcase.




(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040672.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040673.jpg)

These two views show the the left and right halves for two engines after the completion of this first stage of machining all the interior detail. A bucket-full of chips has been produced and there is plenty more still to be machined away before the job is complete.

This machining activity was my first use of LinuxCNC in anger. It was a fairly painless transition from my previous DeskNC controller to LinuxCNC. I was very impressed by the stability and reliability of LinuxCNC. The learning curve was not too steep and everyday I am discovering new hidden features. LinuxCNC only controls the machine,  it does not produce the tool path code. I still do that with DesKAM and by hand. I am not into 3D modelling yet, way above my pay scale. All my machining is done by pocketing or profiling (contouring) at a fixed depth. It's called 2.5D machining.

These images were hosted by Coppermine , generously provided for MEM use by Ade. Thanks Ade, it's a much nicer place than 'Photo....it'

Stay tuned.........

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on July 14, 2017, 05:50:07 PM
Incredible machining. Really enjoying following along.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on July 14, 2017, 07:30:22 PM
Glad to see you back on this amassing project Mike :praise2:

Are the halves milled as "perfect mirrors" of each other so far ?

If so, could you use a command that did it for you or was it manually done ?

Best wishes

Per
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 14, 2017, 07:52:03 PM
Hello Per,

I am further along with the project than with the build log. I am trying to catch up with actual progress with regular weekly postings.

The left and right side of the engine are similar but not identical, the left side bulges out much further. So no perfect mirror is possible. Also due to the peculiarities of the G-code tool command system, it is only possible to mirror straight line moves. You only need to change the sign (+ or -) of one axis to do the mirror. Unfortunately, that is not possible when circles, curves or arcs are involved. Then it is safest and easier to recreate the opposite side toolpath from the mirrored drawing. That can take quite some time to do and you still have to 'prove' the new toolpath by cutting metal. Can be a nervous time when you have already invested time and effort in the part being made.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on July 15, 2017, 12:20:53 AM
Looking good Mike!!!! New shop layout is starting to come together....I hope to get back out there soon....

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 15, 2017, 07:39:02 AM
Hi there Dave,

Thanks for looking in.

I heard about the major upheavals in you workshop, "out with the old and in with the new".
Nice that your young daughter could help with the new storage and furniture. That sort of help is priceless.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: michelko on July 15, 2017, 08:39:38 AM
 :praise2: very nice.

Michael
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 15, 2017, 08:54:22 AM
Hello Michael,

When it's finished, We can race it against your Bugatti, they were both from a similar era

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 21, 2017, 09:41:26 PM
Part 9B    Crankcase: roughing the outside

In the previous installment from Vixen's Den, I described the first steps of machining the inside of the crankcase from two very solid billets of aluminium. This week I will show some of the very long process of machining the outside of the billets, in the hope that an engine crankcase will emerge.
I started by bolting and clamping the two mating halves of the embryo crankcase together and securing them directly to the milling table. The positioning had to be precise as the two billets measure a fraction under 8" x 4" x 4" and the maximum travel of the mill's table is only 8" X 4". You don't want to hit the travel end-stops during the machining!

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040676.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040677.jpg)

With the crankcase inverted, I machined the features on bottom face of the crankcase. The main bearing  webs down to the bearing cap split line and the inside and outside profile of the sump gasket face. I drilled and tapped the main bearing stud/bolt holes and the sump screw holes during this set-up The sump face is a wide T section on the bottom of the crankcase casting and adds considerably to the stiffness of the final item. My initial Datum Points at the lower right corner of the billet are about to be machined away, I will need to reference off the jig plate during future machining.



(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040680.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040681.jpg)

With the individual crankcase halfs re-positioned on the jig plate I made a start at roughing out the side faces of the billets. I milled away a considerable amount of material at the front of the crankcase in 0.1" steps. The 30 degree downward facing flange for the engines auxiliary drive can be seen emerging. There is still a minimum of 20 thou. to be removed from all the roughed faces and obviously over 0.1" at the crests of each step.


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040689.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040693.jpg)

The 45 degree slopes for the cylinder base flanges were removed next. Again the excess material was removed in 0.1" by 0.1" steps from both sides. It is unbelievable to see the mountain of chips that were once part of the billets. On the top of the casing are the four apertures which will eventually become the air/oil mist separation plenum chambers, part of the crankcase breathing system. At the front the top flange for the supercharger is also emerging.



(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040688.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040692.jpg)


These last two photos summerise progress so far. A considerable amount of material has been removed from the initial aluminum bricks, the shape of the crankcase is starting to emerge. Many hours of machining are still required to refine the shape of all the external features, but confidence is growing that a true replica of the Mercedes W165 crankcase will eventually appear.

Stay Tuned

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on July 21, 2017, 09:48:39 PM
Beautiful.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on July 21, 2017, 11:40:30 PM
Nice work Mike!!!

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Sven on July 22, 2017, 05:57:13 AM
I am waiting kindly for the Crankshaft making.
Realy nice work.
I got an similar project

 Regards Sven
(Hamburg Germany)

Gesendet von meinem LG-H850 mit Tapatalk

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jo on July 22, 2017, 07:51:15 AM
 8)

I assume you will be taking the engine to the Bristol show in a couple of weeks so we can see your progress. (Bristol - Another show I can't go to :disappointed: )

Jo
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 22, 2017, 08:51:55 AM
Good morning Sven

Welcome to the MEM forum. We are a very friendly group from all over the world who share a common passion for making model engines. There is a special section for new members to introduce themselves and tell us about their interests and projects.
Making the crankshaft will be interesting. I have ideas to make a press together crankshaft and to use commercial ball races.

Regards

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Sven on July 22, 2017, 11:35:21 AM
Ok Mike
I will introduce myself soon on right place here
Best
Sven
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: michelko on July 22, 2017, 10:07:37 PM
Very impressive  :praise2:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: fumopuc on July 23, 2017, 06:50:11 AM
Hi Mike, thanks for showing the way you did it. I will following along and try to learn.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 29, 2017, 02:09:37 PM
Part 9C   Crankcase:  Starting to finish the outside surfaces

Thanks to all of you who have posted comments, you provide the encouragement for me to keep posting this build log

In the previous installment, I described how the crankcase billets were roughed out to remove surplus material and provide a basis for the finishing cuts. I will now describe the slow process of refining the external shape of the crankcase in a number of stages. As you can imagine it was a long slow process requiring many set-ups. Each set-up provided plenty of potential opportunities for false cuts and cock-ups. The problem being compounded by machining  away of all the initial datum faces during the roughing stages.

I made a start with the auxiliary drive enclosures at the front of the engine. These enclosures house two bevel gears, driven off the crankshaft, with the added complication of being inclined downward at 30 degrees on both sides of the crankcase. They will eventually drive the coolant water pump, the fuel pump and yet another oil scavenge pump.

I made up two 30 degree angle plates, to bolt under my jig plate. I find it much more convenient to use precisely machined angle plates than to fuss about with sine bars and shim blocks etc. The angled jig plate is bolted  to the mill table and indicated into the correct position. The crankcase halves are then attached, in turn, to the jig plate which provides good position repeat-ability during the machining stages. The rod sticking out at the front is located precisely at the apex of the bevel gears and is used as the new datum for all machining relating to the bevel gears.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040714.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040712.jpg)


The differences between the roughed and semi finished auxiliary drives can be seen in the next three photos. There is a limit to the amount of machining possible with my equipment, I do not have the software to do complex 3D machining. I am limited to 2.5D machining ( pockets and contours at differing depths) which leaves plenty of hand finishing with the Dremel and files to get to the final shape.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040717.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040719.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040724.jpg)



There are two prominent extensions on either side of the rear crankcase which form the rear engine bearers. I made these up as two separate pieces which bolt on to either side of the crankcase. The securing bolts are hidden inside the crankcase and are buried in the crankcase side walls. The large hole in the left side engine mounting block was there to allow the steering rods to pass through,

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040818.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040812.jpg)


Next, I cut the semi circular profile of the lower sidewalls. The left and right sides of the case are different. The right hand side is a continuous curved profile interrupted by the oil inlet pipe flange, The other side has that large bulge for the oil pumps. I used a 8mm ball nosed cutter, making repeated passes at 0.010" separation at different depths (Z axis) to produce the curved surfaces. Even at ten thou separation, the curved surfaces are not completely smooth, but that is easily sorted later with files and abrasive papers. You will notice I had to machine around the curved roots of the engine mounts. The engine mounting blocks had to be temporarily removed to allow access for the cutters

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040833.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040825.jpg)

Finishing the outside surfaces was a long, slow process. I hope to conclude the rest of the machining operations in the next installment from Vixen' Den.

Stay tuned.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Plani on July 29, 2017, 03:55:19 PM
I'm following your build too. That's some truly inspiring machining  :praise2: :praise2: :praise2:
And very interesting set ups  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Plani
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Hugh Currin on July 30, 2017, 12:32:02 AM
There is a limit to the amount of machining possible with my equipment, I do not have the software to do complex 3D machining. I am limited to 2.5D machining ( pockets and contours at differing depths) which leaves plenty of hand finishing with the Dremel and files to get to the final shape.

Mike:

It sure looks good, no matter how much hand finishing is needed. Amazing!

But how do you rough/finish these shapes? George builds a "step off sheet" and does the passes manually. (I don't know how he does, my mind would go numb leading to an error.) Do you pull points off the CAD drawing and hand code? Somehow fool the 2 1/2 D CAM into following the surface? Other? Following your build I thought you were using 3D profiling. Even more amazing if you are using 2 1/2D software.

Thanks.

Hugh
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 30, 2017, 11:58:41 AM
But how do you rough/finish these shapes? George builds a "step off sheet" and does the passes manually.

How do I produce those shapes? Hugh, That's a bit like starting off with the 64 dollar question, with no gentle build up.

Well some folks enjoy the intellectual challenge of the Times Crossword, I enjoy the challenge of sculpturing aluminium blocks to produce miniature replica engines. Both require a lot of thought and concentration

I am totally committed digital machining in my workshop. All my machines have been converted to CNC and all are now controlled by LinuxCNC. The only 'manual' input I have is the tail-stock hand wheels on my two lathes; and of course the door handle and lighting switches.

I am a long time user of AutoCAD. I do all my drawings in 2D, plan, side and end elevations and numerous cross sections. My 2 1/2D CAM software complements the 2D CAD drawings. There are now some excellent 3D CAD drawing packages and 3D CAM packages available. The are good, very good, but they are expensive; way above my pay scale and ability. Besides I don't think I have enough years left on this planet to become proficient in their use. I will stick with what I have and know how to use.

Consider the CNC lathe or CNC Mill to be a machine with a high accuracy built-in DRO and controlled via a keypad rather than hand wheels, or automatically via the computer. You control the slides and tool position either by manual keyboard input or by computer control. About 60% of my CNC lathe work is by manual input; just like a normal lathe. I jog the tool position from the keyboard rather than turning hand-wheels. The DRO tells me where I am and I can also observe the cutting action. With the CNC Mill only about 10% is manually controlled, the computer is the prime controller.

A 2 1/2D CAM tool-path generating program will produce a 3D shape, however it is limited to creating prismatic shapes i.e. shapes with vertical sides and flat bottoms. This process will be much like George's 'step-off sheet' of instructions. The two most important functions within a 2 1/2D CAM program being contour profiling and pocketing, one simply follows a given contour shape while the other also removes the material from inside the shape. Complex pseudo 3D shapes can be created by machining a successive series of contours or pockets. These tool-paths can be created from a series of drawing inputs or by manual editing (cut and paste) of previous lines of tool-path code.  The 45 degree stepped slope for the cylinder block faces were produced by editing, increasing steps of 0.1" in the Z axis while deducting 0.1" from the X or Y axes.

The CAD drawing is the prime input to the CAM tool-path generating program. The required shape of the pocket or contour is created on the CAD drawing usually by copying part of the drawing and erasing unwanted lines to leave only the desire outline  The outline shape drawing is then transferred to the CAM program which produces the tool-path instructions to machine that shape. The CAM program needs to know the tool diameter, depth and width of cut and the required feed rate. It is normal to add (edit) together several sets of tool-path instructions to create more complex shapes. Manual editing is often required to remove time wasting moves which only machine fresh air.

Wherever possible, I will position the work-piece so that the machining is normal to the face. I use accurate angle plates to alter the angular position of my jig plate to achieve this vertical alignment.

Curved surfaces are much more difficult to produce than prismatic pockets or contours. A ball nose cutter is generally used to produce the smoothest surface. The ball cutter is commanded to move in a series of close spaced contours, like the height contours on a map. Obviously the closer the contour line spacing, the smoother the surface. I aim for ten thou (0.01") separation which requires an enormous amount of contours to be created and then machined. The contour information comes from carefully constructed CAD drawing, the individual contours are processed by the CAM and added (edited) together.  Curved surfaces are very CAD drawing intensive and also require great concentration during the subsequent editing. The potential for small errors is high, so it is always a good idea to do a machining test on a scrap piece of material before you commit to your precious engine. I like to use a block of coloured perpex, plexiglass, or acrylic for the testing. Creating a curved surface tool-path is slow and time consuming, but sometimes this is the only way to produce a part or surface. This is one area where a good 3D drawing package with a STL file output would make life a lot easier.

There are other tricks you can employ. I will sometimes input the wrong tool diameter to subtly alter the size of a hole or pocket produced. If you declare the tool is say 2 thou smaller than it actually is, you will produce a slightly larger diameter hole, ideal when you want to fit a round peg into a round hole with a controlled clearance fit.

As I say in my signature: "It is the journey that matters, not the destination" and for me the challenge of tool-path programming is an important part of that journey.

Mike





Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Nick_G on July 30, 2017, 12:18:23 PM
.
These parts and this whole build are beyond awesomely-awesomeness.  :ThumbsUp:  :)

Nick
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Stuart on July 30, 2017, 12:20:42 PM
Mike have you had a look at fusion 360 its free for hobby users and you get the top end package

And yes it's a steep leaning curve it does support Linux CNC

It's a combined cad cam parametric job

Boy that engine is a work of art
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on July 30, 2017, 01:41:00 PM
Great right up Mike!    Love those parts!

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 30, 2017, 04:51:12 PM
Thanks everybody,

Stuart, I have had a quick look at Fusion 360. I know it is free to students and hobby users. However I decided the 'costs' would be too high.

Firstly I would need to invest in another computer with the latest Windoz OS and all the problems that now brings. Such a move would put me back into the clutches of brother Bill Gates, I prefer to be in control of my own data and my own destiny. Secondly, the learning curve, I would need to dedicate a considerable amount of  time to become proficient in a completely new CAD/CAM system and methodology. In the end, I decided my remaining time would be best spent building engines rather than studying and learning new software. So I will stick with what I already have and have plenty of experience using; it does work after all. Maybe ten years ago, but today it is perhaps too late to restart.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Stuart on July 30, 2017, 05:25:44 PM
Mike

Ok I forgot you are Linux man , I fully understand , I hate having a windoze pc for the mill but as I wanted to use a smoothsteper and mach4 ( I needed more IO than a parallel port can offer )

But its had so much of the Billy G nanny removed all it will do now is control the mill , so it's not a pic it's a Cnc controller

My fusion 360 runs on a 27 iMac but it's taken me a while to get to grips with it ,but now I can get the part into cad then to cam ok and produce the part I need

You may have Mercedes heritage after the engine when done for display

I am sure it's been asked before but will this be a fully operational engine when completed?

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 30, 2017, 05:46:03 PM
Stuart,

I sincerely hope the engines will capable of running after all the time spent building them. 

I propose to run the engine on straight Methanol without the nitro-benzine, petroleum ether and acetone additives that the Mercedes chemists mixed up for their racing fuel. I see the two stage supercharger as being a hindrance. Who needs 2.6 bar of boost on a model engine running on the bench? I have consciously increased the clearance gaps in the two Roots blowers to make them less efficient. I am also thinking about breaking in the new engine without a supercharger fitted, just a single carb connected to the inlet pipes. When the engine is running sweetly, then I can add the complication of the blowers. Someone once said ' try only one new idea at a time'

Just thinking aloud

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Stuart on July 30, 2017, 06:35:45 PM
Thanks Mike for the update
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Hugh Currin on July 30, 2017, 06:59:56 PM
Mike:

Sorry for the hard question. :-)

And thanks for the explanation. Using a combination of "hand coding" and 2D contours, fed through a CAM, is likely the best solution. As you say though, very labor intensive and prone to small errors. It takes me the longest time for the simplest "hand" generated code, and still likely end up with errors. I do better with a CAM program, but get nervous when cut and paste is involved. Have you tried CAMotics to test G-code programs? I've used it a little and it seems to be useful. (Linux program) I haven't found a good prototyping material that works for me. Most, including machinable wax, cost nearly as much as aluminum. I tried to make machinable wax which worked OK, but found "chips" get ground into the floor and hard to remove.

I have the same dilemma regarding 3D CAD and CAM packages. I'm also using Linux exclusively and am avoiding getting a Windows box. I haven't found a native Linux package that looks good, at any price. There are some projects out there to create one but they are in their infancy. CamBam has the start of profiling but it's rudimentary and hard to use.

I tend to use "manual" milling as much as generating a program. I use MDI commands a lot. I have trouble stopping at a given point, especially with a digital readout. MDI commands allow precise motion one command at a time. I'm still getting use to my Sherline CNC lathe but similar so far. Also like the jog a certain distance (0.10", 0.010", 0.001" etc), very nice for setting up a job.

I use VariCAD for my CAD package. It has some nice 3D functionality but not like to really high end packages. It is native to Linux and I do like it. It does have a STL output but I haven't looked into the format of those files. That may be a possible scheme for profiling.

In CamBam there is  a "Roughing Clearance" (works roughing and finishing) that leaves, or takes away, a given amount from the specified boundary. I find this easier than changing the tool diameter. So many ways to do things.

Absolutely magnificent work on the engine. Even more so now that I know you're using 2 1/2D software. I will continue to learn from you.

Thanks again.

Hugh
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 30, 2017, 08:20:11 PM
Hello Hugh,

It works two ways, I learn from you and you learn from me. You showed me the way with the Intel D525MW mini computer and the shaft encoder for the lathe. Hopefully, together we can also spread the CNC gospel to others on this wonderful MEM forum.

Actually I very rarely hand code, I tend to edit or modify the code generated by the CAM program if and when required. Mostly I use the code straight from the CAM. I use DesKAM (don't think it is still available to buy) which allows me to visualise the tool-path. The tool-path visualisation in LinuxCNC AXIS is also very good, you can view the proposed tool-path from any plane as well as in 3D. Either or both allow you to see any glaring errors and to correct them in time.

My AutoCAD and DesKAM are on a Windoze machine. I still run under Windows XP, which is regarded by many as the best and most reliable of brother Bill's offerings. Since XP Windoze has gone downhill fast. I have found nothing comparable in native Linux.

Yes, the LinuxCNC MDI command is very powerfull, especially the ability to machine up to a given point. Did you know that you can enter/copy several command lines into the MDI box. They are stacked and are worked through in sequence. For instance you can machine to a given point, lift the tool and then return to a starting point to await your next depth command. Another trick I learned is to peck-drill deep holes using the jog function. Jogging downward in five thou (0.005") breaks the chips efficiently, there are do long stringers attempting to seize the drill in the hole.
 

The trick of amending the true tool diameter is intended as a way of refining the diameter of a hole, in much the same way as making a small adjustment to a traditional boring head. Most CAM programs, even the basic low cost packages, offer a roughing clearance option. Over the years I have found ten thou (0.01") to be a nice comfortable amount of material to leave for the finishing pass. Works for aluminium, mild steel and brass.

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on August 01, 2017, 09:30:37 PM
Splendid as ever  :praise2:  :praise2: The coffee cup gives a good guide to the size.

I am stuck at the manual machining level for much the same reason you are staying with 2/2.5D. At the moment I don't have the time to invest in the learning required  ::)
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 01, 2017, 09:35:46 PM
Hi Roger

Thanks.

That coffee cup also sums up my mood at the time.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Art K on August 02, 2017, 03:08:35 AM
Mike,
Still following along. Looking great as well. Until Hugh chimed in I didn't realize you were not using 3D cam. Having a Tormach mill with the capability to do more than I am able makes that seems like a lot of work.  Sometimes I run it an inch high, make sure it's doing what it should (especially on a long part) then stop rewind the program drop it to Z0 & run it for real. I don't tend to use a scrap test block. I have the jog controler with the turn dial for +or- moves and this is real handy. I do tend to do a lot of manual and mdi moves. Sometimes that is just easier than setting up a program. I'm with you on the learning curve though, it's taken me a while to get this proficient with what I have and don't want to start over at ground zero with something else.
Art
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: mikemill on August 02, 2017, 10:04:29 AM
Mike

I too am following your amazing project, Hugh was asking what material to use to test programs, I use MDF, I glue stacks of 18mm to emulate a billet, it cuts cleanly although  it get a bit furry in the middle of the sheet. Point being it’s cheap and readily available, it has proved invaluable in proving the valve port angles on the Triumph cylinder head.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 02, 2017, 11:23:29 AM
Hello Art and Mike

Thanks for dropping by, it's good to have a chat.

Art, You have a Tormach mill, are they as good as everyone says they are? I would dearly like one to replace my small EMCO F1 mill, the 8" x 4" table travel can be limiting. When you add to the purchase price, the shipping costs to get it to the UK, then add a further 20% import tax on top, well, it just ain't going to happen. Do you have the Mach 3 or Pathpilot control software? Pathpilot is pure LinuxCNC but with a better and machinist optimised display screen. Underneath they are the same software.

Did I tell you that my EMCO F1 originally belonged to Her Majesty's Prison Service. It was used in a vein attempt to retrain the prison inmates for a better life. There were some very 'tough nuts' in Parkhurst Prison. When the little used machines were sold off, I was the lucky guy who got them. Since then I have replaced the steppers and drivers with more modern stuff from China and converted to LinuxCNC. I have also built a stepper rotary table and a 4th Axis unit based on a miniature lathe.

I also have a jog controller with a digital handwheel. I cannot get on with it. I much prefer to tap on the keyboard. I now have an index finger with the speed of a woodpecker.

Like you, I will normally test run new tool-path code by machining fresh air before I commit to the metal. Only once or twice have I machined a test piece and then it was to check out some complex pseudo 3D shapes with lots of hand code/editing.

Mike, I have been following your Triumph build with great interest. One problem with MDF and also to a lesser extent, my preferred Acrylic/Perspex/Plexiglass, is that these cheap substitutes can be very abrasive. I have found that MDF will wear HSS tooling faster than aluminium. Ceramic and carbide tooling is much harder and are not effected in the same way. Years ago, my previous company decided to test run a large radar dish program using a glued stack of chipboard......And you cannot find a less suitable test material than chipboard. They only got half way through the test, the chipboard was so abrasive it destroyed the cutters.

Lets go and make metal chips

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Art K on August 02, 2017, 12:44:28 PM
Mike,
I like the Tormach and have found it is generally capable of more than I.  :-\ I still have mach3 installed but am in the process of changing to PathPilot. I gave the specs to my local computer shop and he's gonna check into building a used computer for me.
Oh yeah, I went over to Tormach with a trailer and picked mine up.
Art
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 02, 2017, 01:12:32 PM
Oh yeah, I went over to Tormach with a trailer and picked mine up.

Oh, how I wish.

Pathpilot uses LinuxCNC. LinuxCNC is distributed under an 'open source' licence agreement, so Tormach are obliged to share their Pathpilot software under the same agreement. They are NOT obliged to give details of the proprietary changes they made to the software (display screen etc) for their machines. I obtained a copy of Pathpilot from Tormach, The good people on the LinuxCNC forum helped me make some changes so it now sort of runs with my non-Tormach machines.

I like the Pathpilot operator interface, much more machinist friendly than LinuxCNC's Axis display.

The thing I discovered is that Pathpilot needs a much faster and higher spec computer than that required for LinuxCNC, That's strange since they are running basically the same core software, it must be the graphics for the new display which requires the extra computing power.

I do not know what specification your computer shop are building to. Best to be careful and check with Tormach first. Please let me know, as it may help me get my Pathpilot up and running.

Regards

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Art K on August 02, 2017, 02:06:18 PM
Mike,
I have a tech sheet from Tormach with specs for what they are sure works. When I'm home from work I'll forward that to you.
Art
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 05, 2017, 05:03:07 PM
Part 9D       Crankcase: the final machining stages

In this installment from the Vixen's Den we reach the final stages of machining the crankcase, before the long process of hand finishing those parts which could not be reached by the machine tools.

The engine's oil breather system is located on the top of the crankcase between the cylinder banks. The air from within the crankcase, laden with oil mist droplets, is expelled upwards into the plenum chambers. In the chambers the air velocity suddenly drops, causing the entrained oil droplets to condense and fall back into the bottom of the crankcase. I started by milling the internal details of the cover plates.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040850.jpg)


Here the cover is temporaly bolted to one crankshaft half prior to machining the first cylinder face

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040857.jpg)


The right half of the crankcase is bolted to a 45 degree angle plate and indicated to be square. The cylinder face is faced off flat to the finished dimension, then the cylinder base flange outline was profiled. The outlet ports for the crankcase breathing system are becoming visible.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040868~0.jpg)


Slightly out of sequence, I know. The top of the gear-case has some detail added. The water coolant transfer passage, from one side of the engine to the other, has the pipe flange machined.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040858.jpg)


The two bumps which define the outside of the auxiliaries bevel drive are machined next. The outside shape is a series of contours spaced at 10 thou (0.01") intervals. They took a long time to hand code, so I did a trial cut on a block perspex (acrylic) to prove to myself that there were no glaring errors in the tool path. It was a nervous time when I started on the crankase, The shell thickness of the housing was only 1/16" (1.5mm) around the previously machined internal cavity. I feared that at any moment the ball cutter would break through and the whole crankcase would be ruined. My luck held for another day. Measure twice, cut once they say, I must have done that a dozen times before starting this particular cut.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1050058~0.jpg)


There were still a few tricky bits of machining to complete before the two crankcase halves are finally joined and finished. Two oilways for the waste oil scavenge system need to be drilled down the centre of the spine which separates the crankshaft space from the oil breather plenums. The oilways are 3mm in diameter and over 4" (100mm) deep. There was a risk that the long thin drill would wander off course and break out in some unwanted location.

I mounted the crankcase vertically against a robust cast iron angle plate. I also needed to raise the mill head another 4 inches to allow for the very long drill. I used a 1/2" plate with offset holes to raise the mill head high above the mill table, there was only just enough power lead to reach the motor when the head was raised to full height. Got lucky again.

The technique I use when drilling long thin holes is to start off with a centre cutting end mill of the correct diameter and drill as deep as that mill cutter allows. This accurately positioned hole then guides the drills that follow more accurately than if I had started with a centre drill. Accurate alignment of the start and frequent clearing of the drill flutes is key to an accurate deep drilled hole. I follow the end mill with a new stub drill, then a new jobbers length drill and progress to the longest drill. I always try to have the minimun of unsuported drill between the chuck or collet and the work-piece. Minimising this distance also minimises the possibility of the drill bending in the open air and with it the risk of the long drill deviating off course. Retracting the drill every 0.1" to 0.2" is an essential part of the operation, a squirt of WD40 down the hole helps lubricate and clear the drill chips. I always 'peck drill' which breaks the chip into very short lengths, it is the long stringers which can jamb in the flutes and break a drill deep in the hole.

Well, I was carefull and got lucky again. I drilled four holes over 4" deep and estimate all were within 0.020 thou (0.5mm) of true.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1050010.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1050011.jpg)


Finally it was time to bolt the two crankcase halves together and finish the last remaining cylinder face. I made sets of special bolts out of high strength aluminium alloy (HE15). the bolts were made well over length with tommy bar holes to get them real tight. I used plenty of JB Weld epoxy to seal the joint faces and grout the bolts in place. The top cover received the same treatment. I gave the epoxy several days to fully cure.

The excess bolts heads were sawn off and the assembled crankcase was mounted against the vertical angle plate and the last cylinder face was faced off and the flange contoured in the same way as the first. The aluminium bolt heads were almost invisible after the cylinder face was machined.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1050054~0.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1050056.jpg)


The final machining operations were to make and fit the clutch bell housing flange to the rear of the crankcase. The rear flange plate outline shape was profiled then attached to the rear of the assembled crankcase by more aluminium bolts and JB Weld epoxy. The crankcase was again mounted against the vertical angle plate and the internal detail was milled into the flange plate. When completed, the aluminium bolts were again invisible.


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/WP_20151012_001~0.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1050057.jpg)

That's as far as I can get with the machining. From here on it's over to the Dremel and Swiss files to smooth and blend the surfaces that could not be reached with the machine tools. It has been a long slog to get his far, about 80% of the billets I started with have been reduced to chips. The hand finishing will be a well earned rest from standing in front of the milling machine for endless hours.

Next time I will have finished with the crankcase and about to commence on the next items to be made.

Stay Tuned

Mike


Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: simplyloco on August 05, 2017, 05:20:07 PM
Astonishing work. I didn't realise there was that much talent not ten miles from me! I'll be over...
John
PS. And I thought my Brit loco was nice until I saw this thread!
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: michelko on August 15, 2017, 02:10:59 PM
Holy cow
very impressive  work
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: mikecole7 on August 15, 2017, 02:17:32 PM

               Excellent work Mike. You a master with CNC.
               See you at Bristol show

            Mike   
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 15, 2017, 02:58:00 PM
Mike and everybody,

I'm realy looking forward to the Bristol Show this weekend. I hope to meet up with all of the usual suspects. Call in at the Internal Combustion Engine Builders stand and say hello.

Unfortunately, I don't think Dr Jo will be able to make it this year.

CNC does not make it easier, but it does allow you to consider more complex shapes.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jo on August 15, 2017, 03:01:48 PM
Unfortunately, I don't think Dr Jo will be able to make it this year.

:wallbang:  :'(  :disappointed:

You've never forgiven me for putting you title on your badge have you Dr Mike  :lolb:

Jo
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 15, 2017, 03:05:00 PM
Dr Jo,
Ha ha, We all have our guilty secrets. :LittleDevil:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jo on August 15, 2017, 04:11:28 PM
Dr Jo,
Ha ha, We all have our guilty secrets. :LittleDevil:

Mike

I must be getting  :old: because I don't remember having any  :noidea:.

Jo

P.S. What's the point of having guilty secrets if you can't remember them  :-\
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 15, 2017, 04:25:16 PM
We don't get old  :old:        We just mature :wine1: like fine wine.

How are you feeling? Getting stronger by the day, I hope.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jo on August 15, 2017, 04:29:18 PM
How are you feeling? Getting stronger by the day, I hope.

Mike

My tummy is feeling a bit sore from being shaken up in someone's Disco on Sunday :ShakeHead: but two gentlemen are trying to make it better by offering me model engine castings, so it would seem my luck may be in :naughty:

Jo
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Bluechip on August 15, 2017, 04:42:42 PM

P.S. What's the point of having guilty secrets if you can't remember them  :-\


Erasing legacy guilty secrets is Mother Nature's way of making room for new ones ..  :ThumbsUp:

Dave.   ( Much fortified by 2 x 500ml cans of Becks.  :DrinkPint:   Life feels almost tolerable ).
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: 90LX_Notch on August 15, 2017, 05:51:09 PM
Outstanding work Mike.  I'm just blown away.

-Bob
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: BlueRock on August 21, 2017, 10:11:11 AM
Mind blown.... incredible work Mike! Thanks for posting :)
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on August 21, 2017, 10:23:30 AM
Fabulous work Mike!!!

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Twizseven on August 21, 2017, 12:12:18 PM
Mike,

It was a pleasure meeting you at the weekend and seeing your stunning work.  In fact all the work on the ICEBA stand was phenomenol.  It was good talk to Mike Cole and Eric as well.  Maybe if I manage to ever finish the Anzani 'Y' engine I might be able to join your table.  It was also nice to meet and speak to Cherry Hill.

Colin
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 21, 2017, 12:40:04 PM
Thanks for all your kind words and encouragement.

The Internal Combustion Engine Builders Group (ICEBG) members always make a point of being there on the stand, to talk about and discuss our engines. It's always 'open house'. We try to explain and try to encourage others.

ICEBG is not a club, you do not have to join or pay subs. We only exist to obtain a display table at the various shows in the South of England. Just turn up with your I/C engine, whether part finished or complete and we will make table space for you.

Speaking with Cherry Hill is always an honor, like an audience with the Queen.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 21, 2017, 04:42:53 PM
Part 10    Finishing the Crankcase and starting on the Oil Pumps


In this installment from 'Vixen's Den' you can see the hand finishing of the two crankcases and a start is made on the elaborate oil pump arrangement located off the rear main bearing cap and located in the dry sump.

I use a long flexible extension with my Dremel to remove all the unwanted ridges and blend all the corners what cannot be easily reached by my milling machine. I follow the Dremel work with a selection of Swiss files and pattern makers rifler files. Fine grades of 'wet and dry' abrasive papers are used to smooth and refine the surfaces. I also use disks of 'Scotchbrite' mounted on the Dremmel to frost the surface to an even matt finish. When I am satisfied with the surfaces, I can give the crankcase a light grit blasting with fine alumina grit to create the appearance of a casting. The machined surfaces are carefully masked off and protected with painters masking tape to preserve their 'as machined' surface finish.

I made a start on the Main Bearing Caps. As you can see, there are five and they are all different. The rear bearing cap also carries the battery of oil pumps, which are located in that bulge to one side of the crankcase. 

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1050161.JPG)


I must have misread my own drawing which resulted in some scrap parts, no, lets call them 'test pieces'. I had inadvertently machined a pump cavity where there should have been a plain bearing. Just look at that main bearing bolt passing through the pump cavity in the rearmost bearing cap....... Dohhhh!

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1050162.JPG)


Mercedes have a strange fascination for multiple pumps of all descriptions. In the sump, there is a battery of oil pumps to provide fresh oil for the bearings and several scavenge pumps to scavenge (suck away) the used oil and return it to the external oil tank via the oil filter and oil cooler. You have seen the oil filter mounted on the side of the two stage supercharger. In addition to this set of pumps, there is another scavenge pump for the supercharger, a fuel pump and the main coolant water pump mounted externally at the front of the engine. And, if you like, you can add the two stage supercharger as another huge air pump.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1050335.JPG)

The sump oil pumps consist of a series of simple gear pumps driven from a common shaft. In each pump section there are four oval oil transfer passages outside the pump cavity. Passages are milled into each pump section to connect the pump cavity to the appropriate oil transfer passage. Thin bronze plates divide the pump sections and help control the flow of oil into and out of the battery of pumps.

There are fifteen parts to a pump housing set and each part is slightly different to it's neighbor.  It seemed like a good idea to get a bit organised. I have yet to summon the courage to make and fit the pump spur gears, there are just so many of them.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1050323.JPG)


The bronze block at the front of the pump set is the manifold which connects the various pumps to the external pipework. The first pump section supplies pressure oil to the five main roller bearings. The second section supplies pressure oil to the plain bearings of the four camshafts . The third section scavenges (sucks) the used oil from the front of the dry sump through a strainer, which is yet to be made. The fourth pump section sucks oil from the rear of the dry sump through the integral strainer. The fifth pump section sucks used oil from the four cam boxes and also from the clutch bearing housing at the rear of the engine.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1050325.JPG)


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1050326.JPG)


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1050329.JPG)


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1050376.JPG)

Fresh, cooled oil enters the crankcase through the pipe flange on the right hand side of the case. All of the scavenged (used) oil is pumped out of the crankcase through the angled flange on the left side. You can also see the individual oil connections to each of the main bearing caps.


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1050349.JPG)

As with the original engines, everything will connected by large and small diameter copper pipes soldered to the individual flanges. I will be waiting until later in the build  before I make and fit these pipe connections. They look like a snake pit and will be easily damaged if they are fitted to early in the build.


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1050331.JPG)

There are times when I wish that Mercedes Benz could have done things in a simpler fashion. But I must keep reminding myself that in 1939 these engines and cars were at the very cutting edge of motor racing technology, no effort (or expense) would have been spared if it produced a fraction more power.

Stay tuned

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: sco on August 21, 2017, 04:52:47 PM
Awesome attention to detail Mike  :ThumbsUp:

Simon.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Steamer5 on August 21, 2017, 04:59:50 PM
Hi Mike,
That's just gob smacking!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 21, 2017, 05:02:53 PM
Kerrin,

It's five in the morning right now for you in NZ!!!!!! don't you guys sleep?


Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Steamer5 on August 21, 2017, 05:40:03 PM
Hi Mike,
 Well it 04:40..... I work shift work for my sins days then nights!.....Woops sorry mentioned that 4 letter word! Allows more than 2 days off most of the time! Still doesn't mean I get enough workshop time.......working on that!!

Reading what everybody's up to helps fill out the small hours.

Amazed at what you are up to on this build!

Cheers Kerrin

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: fumopuc on August 21, 2017, 08:37:27 PM
Hi Mike, very impressive.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 21, 2017, 09:20:47 PM
Hello Achim

Do they still have that fabulous 5.6 litre straight 8, W125 Silver Arrows car on display in the Mercedes Benz showroom on the corner of Odeonsplatz in Munich?
I saw it there a few years ago, so it may have since been returned to the Classic Centre Museum in Stuttgart.

Regards

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 21, 2017, 11:46:05 PM
 :o
Wow. That's about all I can say.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: fumopuc on August 22, 2017, 10:16:57 AM
Hello Achim

Do they still have that fabulous 5.6 litre straight 8, W125 Silver Arrows car on display in the Mercedes Benz showroom on the corner of Odeonsplatz in Munich?
I saw it there a few years ago, so it may have since been returned to the Classic Centre Museum in Stuttgart.

Regards

Mike

Hi Mike, to be honest I haven´t been down town for a couple of years, so I couldn’t tell you.
But for your next visit in Munich, this could be an interesting place to go.
https://www.bmwgroup-classic.com/en/building.html
I have not been there, since they moved into their new (old) building, but I have seen a lot of the historic cars including an old aero plan engine in their old building, because this was very close to my office desk. 


Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: BlueRock on August 26, 2017, 12:56:20 AM
Inspiring work Mike!
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on September 02, 2017, 08:42:21 PM

Just a quick update on progress.

There we see one of the two stage superchargers mounted onto the finished crankcase.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1050491.jpg)

The blower looks huge and completely dominates the crankcase. The cylinder blocks will be the next stage in this build.

Stay tuned

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on September 02, 2017, 10:26:59 PM

Mike, I wish I had the words to give you a worthy compliment but I am speechless looking at your work.

Thomas
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on September 02, 2017, 10:45:15 PM
That looks awesome Mike!!!!

Dave

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: b.lindsey on September 02, 2017, 11:20:37 PM
Totally awesome!!! Great picture too Mike.

Bill
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Art K on September 03, 2017, 01:11:23 AM
Mike,
Just checking in, those assembled crankcases look great. Just as an aside, I think my first multi cylinder when I decide what that is will have significantly fewer oil pumps. :mischief:
Art
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on September 03, 2017, 09:10:08 AM
Art,

I totally agree with you on the number of oil pumps. Most folk just use one big oil pump in the oil pan (sump).

However, technical complexity and high performance engines are so much part of the Mercedes Benz DNA, they will do whatever it takes to gain 1/2% more performance over their competitors. It was true for the  'Silver Arrows' Grand Prix cars back in the 1930's and it remains true with today's F1 race cars, nearly eighty years later

Watch today's F1 race from Monza if you can and you may see what I mean.

Bill, did you notice the all time record for people on-line was broken last night. Well done.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: mikemill on September 03, 2017, 11:37:14 AM
Mike
Your work is exquisite, I thought the chap who built the ¼ scale Merlin some 30 years ago set the standard for model IC engines, but I think you are going to surpass that with your Merc.
Could you explain the process of getting that lovely matt finish on the ali.
Thanks

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on September 03, 2017, 03:14:02 PM
Mike,

We all build our engines to the best of our individual abilities. We do it to satisfy our own creative instincts, and  that's all that really matters. Barrington (Barry) Hares is (was) in a class of his own. His RR Merlin was exceptional, his next engine, a RR Eagle was even finer still.

I use are several techniques to surface finish aluminium parts.

Mostly I use Scotchbright discs mounted in the Dremel to lightly frost machined surfaces, it polishes out and quickly removes any machine tool marks leaving a pleasing frosted finish.

For simulating castings, I use a grit blasting cabinet and a fine Alumina sand media. You can adjust the finished texture with different grades of media. The surface texture will be granular and the colour of the aluminium will darken with time, as the surface slowly oxidises. I mask off those machined surfaces that do not require the sand blast treatment, with painters masking tape.

Before final assembly, I often chemically etch the surfaces with 'Alubrite'. It is a cocktail of strong acids which imparts a very durable pearl-like finish. A bit like an anodised finish but without the need for electricity.

I never polish or buff the surface to a mirror finish. To my mind,  a mirror finish detracts from rather than adds something to a scale model engine.

Hope this helps

Mike


Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on September 08, 2017, 06:15:43 PM
Part 11  The Cylinder Blocks

The cylinder blocks are going to be the next items to make. They will add substance to the whole engine so that it’s overall size and shape can be appreciated. Like everything on this engine, the cylinder blocks will be far from easy and straight forward to design and manufacture.

Mercedes Benz were well experienced in the design and manufacture of lightweight welded cylinders blocks for aero engines, dating back to the first world war. Although separate cylinder engines may have lacked the rigidity of the cast block engine as used by their arch rival Auto Union, welded cylinders were used in all the Mercedes Silver Arrows Grand Prix cars built during the 1930’s.

A similar construction was used on all the MB race engines of that period, from the W125 straight 8 of 5.6 litres to the diminutive W165 V8 of only 1.5 litres. This welded cylinder block construction was even carried through and used on the first of the W196 cars driven by Stirling Moss and Fangio in the 1950's. Later cars had cast blocks.

Cast steel cylinder heads were directly welded to individual cylinders The individual cylinders and their non detachable heads were then welded to a substantial base plate, two cam shaft plates were added to join the heads together. The water jacket was then formed by welding thin pressed steel stampings over all the cylinders. The cylinders were bored to size when all the welding was complete, the distortion due to all that hot work must have been considerable.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/15591328_1368411676536638_1899407223159042440_o~0.jpg)
This is a modern full size recreation of one of the all-welded cylinder blocks for the 5.6 litre W125 straight eight Grand Prix engine of 1935. What an incredable feat of welding. Photo is curtesy of Crossthwaite and Gardner

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/11145148_1017946148249861_580463687454880431_o_28129~0.jpg)
There are the pattern and casting for one of the four valve cylinder heads for the W125 engine. Photo is curtesy of Crossthwaite and Gardner

I briefly considered a similar welded construction but quickly realised my lack of welding ability would not lead to successful 1/3 scale cylinder blocks. I started on a welding refresher course but did not succeed in getting past step 1.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/normal_welding_disc.jpg)


I therefore completely redesigned the cylinder blocks so that they could be machined rather than welded. The challenge was to create the external appearance of the welded cylinders while providing the necessary water jacket and cylinder head cooling passages. The four cylinder heads and water ways would be machined from a single block of aluminiuim The four cylinders would then screw into the heads sealing a separate machined water jacket in place.

A start was made on the water jacket. A 8" x 2" x 1.5" aluminium billet was secured in the mill vice and the inside of the water jacket was milled out. The outside profile was also roughed out, leaving a thin 2 mm wall to the water jacket. A lot more work would be required at a later stage,  to create the corrugations on the outside, to resemble those of the welded water jacket.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060264~0.jpg)



The water jacket was flipped over so that the cylinder details could be machined into the base flange.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060303~0.jpg)



The outline of the base flange was then profiled and all the mounting bolt holes drilled.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060304~0.jpg)


Here the  water jackets are offered up to the embryo cylinder heads to check for fit.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060563~0.jpg)


I will conclude the water jacket machining saga in the next installment from Vixen's Den

Stay tuned

Mike


Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on September 08, 2017, 06:24:49 PM
Enjoyable and instructive!!! 


Watching along.....

Dave

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on September 08, 2017, 06:43:39 PM
This is like looking through the Victoria Secrets catalog: mouth hanging open and dreaming  :cheers: :naughty:. Magnificent machining.

Cletus
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on September 08, 2017, 07:12:09 PM
Hay Cletus

Ha Ha, At least we did not catch you looking through the Ann Summers catalog

Cheers

Mike :LittleDevil:

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on September 08, 2017, 08:29:23 PM
Had to Google it, but, same effect  :lolb: :lolb:

Cletus
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Dave Otto on September 09, 2017, 12:51:29 AM
Impressive work Mike!
I'm really enjoying the whole project.

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Art K on September 10, 2017, 01:21:09 AM
Mike,
I just caught your latest installment. Looking at the welded cylinder and having a grandfather who was a welder. I can appreciate the skill of the man who welded that MB cylinder and head. I can also see myself in welding step 1. :lolb: Great workaround to an engineering problem.
Art
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on September 16, 2017, 06:01:48 PM
Part 11B  The Water Jackets

In the previous installment from Vixens Den, we had reached the stage that the water jackets were finish machined on the inside, the base flange was machined and the mounting holes drilled. The outside of the jacket being only roughed to shape.

You will recall that on the full size cylinder blocks, the water jacket consists of thin pressed steel sheets welded in place around the cylider assembly. The lower section of the water jacket had a distinct corrugated shape to allow for expansion. I have attempted  to create this corrugated appearance with a 4.0mm ball mill cutting to a depth of 1.0mm, with a lot of hand filing to complete the shaping. This left a bare 1.0 mm of wall thickness for the water jacket, so the chances of accidentally braking through were quite high.

Each water jacket was carefully positioned in the machine vice so that the individual corrugations could be added. The upper corrugations were reasonably straightforward, running the full length of the water jacket and curving around the the centre line, at each end. The lower two corrugations were much more interesting, as they followed the contour of the individual cylinders thereby forming three large undercuts.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060757.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060759~0.jpg)


The engine driven water pump delivers fresh coolant the water jackets through an external pipe welded to the water jacket . The fresh coolant is delivered equally to each cylinder via a long tapering pipe through a series of holes cut into one side of the water jacket. The external pipes of the model engine are to be bolted in place rather than welded.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060763.jpg)


Here we can see two of the water jackets before and after the corrugations were machined. There is not much of the original aluminium billet left by this stage.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060762~0.jpg)


The external water pipes were externally taper turned and drilled with different diameter drills to create the taper on the inside. The eight mounting holes in the pipe were drilled and tapped M3.0. One side of the external pipe was then milled away along the joint face with the water jacket. The angle of this cut was carefully calculated so the intersection of the cut resulted in parallel sides which exactly matched the side of the water jacket.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060898.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060899.jpg)


The exterior machining on the water jacket was cleaned up with small files and wet-n-dry abrasive papers to create an acceptable simulation of the steel pressings. The external water pipe will be joined to the water jacket with a row of eight stainless steel button head M3.0 screws. The screws and the joint face are to be sealed with either JB Weld epoxy or a two-pack flexible Polyurethane elastomer, if I can locate some. I would much prefer to use the Polyurethane because of it's inherent flexibility. I also propose to use this material to seal the water jacket to the cylinder heads when the time comes.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060900.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060901.JPG)


In the next installment, a start will be made in the cylinder heads.

So stay tuned.

Mike


Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Nick_G on September 16, 2017, 06:33:34 PM
.
Wowzers.!  :ThumbsUp: :)


Nick
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on September 16, 2017, 08:52:14 PM
Very impressive  :praise2:

Quote
This left a bare 1.0 mm of wall thickness for the water jacket, so the chances of accidentally braking through were quite high.

OK - now you are into nail biting territory  :insane:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on September 17, 2017, 09:18:40 AM
OK - now you are into nail biting territory  :insane:

Hi Admiral,  Most parts of this project take me into that territory

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on October 23, 2017, 05:40:40 PM
Part 11C  Cylinder Heads

There has recently been lots of steam engine stuff posted on the forum. I thought it was about time to post another 'fix' for the petrol head junkies out there.

The next items to be created were the four cylinder heads. Each head contained four cylinders, each of which were fitted with 4 valves inclined at an included angle of 56 degrees to form a penthouse combustion chamber. Each combustion chamber being surrounded by a water jacket. Apparently the 56 degree valve angle was the maximum which would allow the individual valves to removed and replaced from the combined welded cylinder/ combustion chamber.

Four 8" x 4" x 3" aluminium billets were faced off and the central cleft between the inlet and exhaust valves machined. On each head, two 3mm diameter holes were drilled the full length of each embryo cylinder head. The holes were drilled 4" deep from either end of the billet using the method described in earlier installments. Again, luck was with me and all the holes lined up perfectly. These long holes interconnect the various parts of the cylinder heads water pockets. I decided to make these drillings at an early stage before much work was undertaken. It would be easier to redo the drillings at this stage if there had been a problem.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060562.JPG)


The interface with the previously made water jacket was machined next and trial fitted
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060563.JPG)


This is a preview of how the cylinder blocks will eventually look.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060565.JPG)

The next stage of machining the cylinder interface is a most important stage to get right. In the  full size Mercedes engine the individual cylinders are welded to the individual cylinder heads. The model engine will have the individual cylinders screwed into the combined cylinder head. The accuracy of the cylinder screw threads was of the utmost importance so I decided to try a technique which was completely new to me. I would try thread milling with a single point tool on my LinuxCNC controlled mill.

The four thread pockets were machined with an undercut to accommodate the end turns of the thread.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060567.JPG)

Here is the toolpath for the cutter. The cutter was made from a 3/8" x 32 TPI tap. All the teeth except one were ground off. The remaining cutting tooth looked quite pathetic but it cut all the threads perfectly, if fact some of the nicest threads I have seen. The single point cutter spins like a normal mill cutter and will cut a V grove of the correct angle for the thread. The cutter is then moved in a circular motion at the correct diameter while simultaneously being withdrawn by a distance equivalent to the required thread pitch. The item being machined remains clamped to the mill table, while the cutting tip moves in a continuous helix.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060568.JPG)

It all sounds very hairy, but in fact these was probably the easiest threads I have ever cut, much easier and cleaner than on a lathe. The cylinder threads were 1" x 32 TPI
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060569.JPG)

Here we see all four cylinder heads plus the two test pieces I experimented with before committing to the model parts. So far , so good
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060570.JPG)

Next, I pocked out the water spaces around each combustion chamber. If you look closely you can see where I intersected the 3mm diameter holes I drilled earlier.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060576.JPG)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060580.JPG)

The next stage was to machine the interior of the combustion chamber pent house shape. The V of the pent house accomodates four valves with a 56 degree included angle. I made up precision angle plates for the fixture plate at 28 degrees half angle.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060582.JPG)

The cylinder heads were attached to the fixture plate with clamps and bolts passing through two spark plug holes. A ball mill was used to form one side of the combustion chambers.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060669.JPG)

Each cylinder head was then flipped over to complete the second side of the combustion chambers pent house roof
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060673.JPG)


The next stage was to machine the inlet and exhaust valve pockets. With four valves per cylinder and four cylinders per head, there were a lot of holes to mill. I chose to thread mill the 1/2" x 32 TPI threads using the same single point thread mill is used earlier on the cylinder threads.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060676.JPG)

Here we can see the four embryo cylinder head blocks with all the internal machining completed.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060682.JPG)

The next installment from Vixen's Den will describe the fun and games of machining the outside of the cylinder heads.

Stay tuned

Mike

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jo on October 23, 2017, 06:33:39 PM
The next installment from Vixen's Den will describe the fun and games of machining the outside of the cylinder heads.

I thought the next instalment might include a bit of Jupiter stroking  :mischief:

Jo
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on October 23, 2017, 06:44:27 PM
Hello Jo

Just about to jump on the overnight ferry to St Malo to collect said Bristol Jupiter. The 12 hour winter ferry deals are cheaper than a DHL delivery

Getting excited :cartwheel: :cartwheel: :cartwheel: :cartwheel: :cartwheel: :cartwheel: :wine1: :wine1:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jo on October 23, 2017, 06:58:13 PM
Getting excited :cartwheel: :cartwheel: :cartwheel: :cartwheel: :cartwheel: :cartwheel: :wine1: :wine1:

I would never have guessed  :lolb:

I am sure you will look after Danny's engine for him  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on October 23, 2017, 07:06:25 PM
Hello Jo

At least I have made sure it does not fall into the hands of some auction treasure hunter.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jo on October 23, 2017, 07:11:37 PM
And hopefully we will see it finished :popcorn:

Jo

P.S. I'll be good and let you post the first picture of it  ;)
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: scc on October 23, 2017, 07:49:04 PM
PHENOMINAL engineering of the highest level :praise2: I'm spellbound with every instalment.       Terry
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on October 23, 2017, 09:52:40 PM
Thanks for you kind comment Terry

Yes Jo completing Danny's build is my intention, but don't hold your breath, it will not be the work of five minutes. Besides, I have other big projects on the go.

At the moment I am having a beer on a ferry, in the middle of the oggin, half way to France

Cheers

Mike
..
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on October 23, 2017, 11:21:44 PM
Thanks for you kind comment Terry

Yes Jo completing Danny's build is my intention, but don't hold your breath, it will not be the work of five minutes. Besides, I have other big projects on the go.

At the moment I am having a beer on a ferry, in the middle of the oggin, half way to France

Cheers

Mike
..

Good to hear!   Especially the beer part!

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on January 29, 2018, 07:41:11 PM
It's not everyday you get the chance to sit in a £6,000,000 replica of a Mercedes Benz W125.

All thanks to Dick Crosthwaite at Crosthwaite and Gardner Ltd

Mike

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030765.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030764.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030763.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/_T2eC16hHJHkFFluElZPjBSNNpsuq21g~~60_12.jpg)
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: b.lindsey on January 29, 2018, 08:28:00 PM
Great pictures Mike!!  What a thrill that must have been  :cartwheel:

Bill
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on January 29, 2018, 09:07:15 PM
Yes Bill, it was quite a thrill and a privilege.

The car was huge. The cockpit was spacious, with little to keep the driver in except a strong grip on the wheel. The bonnet (hood?) went on for ever.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: sco on January 29, 2018, 09:16:43 PM
I see your W125 and raise you a W165 :-)

Simon.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on January 29, 2018, 09:37:49 PM
Snap,

That's the only running W165 in the world, the only other W165 is a static exhibit in the Stuttgart Museum.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030964.jpg)

Here is my two stage supercharger on top of the real thing

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: michelko on February 05, 2018, 09:22:14 AM
wow  :praise2:

Whats the Status of your Project? When will it runn?

Michael
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 05, 2018, 10:59:48 AM
Hello Michael,

The Mercedes W165 journey is long and progress is always slow during the winter months. You can heat the air in an outside workshop but the iron machines remain cold and that's hard on old hands and fingers.  Also I have been distracted by the Bristol Jupiter radial engine, you may have seen my other posts.

Our larger scale historic racing engines never get much feedback, compared to smaller more popular projects. I guess that's to be expected, as little is known about pre-war European racing engines on the far side of the pond. Even more so with the secretive way Mercedes Benz work, I don't suppose there are more than half a dozen living engineers, in the whole world, who have seen inside the MB W165 engine.  And they are not allowed to tell.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 25, 2018, 04:33:55 PM
Part 11D  Cylinder Heads

It has been a while since I last updated the build progress on my Mercedes Benz W165 GP engines. Sorry for that, but I have been concentrating on another engine; the Bristol Jupiter, nine cylinder radial engine. I will try to make amends with this rather long installment from Vixen's Den

We left the cylinder heads with the majority of the internal geometry machined, ready to start on the external surfaces. Here is a reminder of how far I had progressed

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060682~0.JPG)


The next operations require the cylinder heads to be mounted back on the 28* angle plate, ready to start work on the three sides of the valve towers. I prefer to make precision angle plates for each set-up, easier to handle and less risk of an error compared to adjustable angle plates or sign bars. The cylinder heads are located against a reference face and secured by four bolts, through the spark plug holes

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060684.JPG)


With the top and side faces machined, I was able to drill through from the outside into the water jacket cavities between the combustion chambers. This increases the size of the water coolant space and allows the coolant to reach up in between the pairs of inlet and exhaust valves. The drilled holes were then tapped 40 tpi for shallow blanking caps which were screwed in and sealed with JB Weld epoxy. You will notice there are two overlapping plugs sealing each water space. The second set of coolant holes were drilled and tapped after the epoxy securing the initial set  had cured

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060685.JPG)
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060687.JPG)


When all the epoxy had fully cured, I machined the top surface flat, to the finished dimension, then thread milled (40 tpi) each of the valve pockets, ready to accept the screw-in valve inserts.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060688.JPG)


Next, I machined the shallow recess in the top of the valve tower. before drilling and tapping the 18 off M3 threads for the studs which will eventually secure the cam boxes in place.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060689.JPG)
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060690.JPG)


All this work was repeated on the opposite side and then on each of the four cylinder heads in turn. You can just make out the sealing caps on the completed side. This was a long demanding session in the shop but very rewarding.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060693.JPG)


The cylinder heads were transferred to a 90* angle plate so that the inlet and exhaust ports could be machined into the sides of the valve towers. The ports were first bored and then thread milled 40 tpi. That single tooth thread mill has achieved an amazing amount of work without the need for resharpening.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060695.JPG)


Exhaust and inlet stubs were turned on the lathe and the correct type screwed into the cylinder head, again secured and sealed with high temperature JB Weld epoxy.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060708.JPG)


Here the exhaust stubs are faced off, the internal ports opened up to an oval cross-section and the external flange profiled to shape, before being drilled and tapped for the M2.0 studs.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060711.JPG)
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060712.JPG)


This just about completes this stage of the work on the cylinder heads, prior to the installation of the bronze screw-in valve seats.
As you can see. there is not much of the original billet left

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060722.JPG)
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060721.JPG)
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060720.JPG)
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060715.JPG)

Stay tuned, there's more to come.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jo on February 25, 2018, 05:28:41 PM
Getting side tracked on the Jupiter was totally understandable  ;)

Looking good, I hope those are not Royal Snail elastic bands - if they are be warned they biodegrade, you don't want your cylinder head dropping off and getting a ding  ::)

Jo
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: sco on February 25, 2018, 07:45:06 PM
Awesome work Mike - loving following this build.

Simon.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Art K on February 25, 2018, 08:04:30 PM
Mike,
That looks great. It's also great to see you and your model next to the real thing.
Art
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: fumopuc on February 25, 2018, 08:06:43 PM
Hi Mike, that is really impressive.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on February 26, 2018, 01:40:10 PM
Excellent  :praise2:  :praise2: I look forward to seeing how the valve seats/combustion chambers assemble.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: michelko on February 26, 2018, 06:50:31 PM
Wow awesome work :NotWorthy:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: b.lindsey on February 26, 2018, 07:47:31 PM
Just awesome Mike. Don't know what else to say, just a work of art!!

Bill
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 26, 2018, 09:10:44 PM
Thanks everyone for your generous comments

My friends at Crosthwaite and Gardner, have recently published this photo on there webpage.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/26992622_1790915167619618_6614880533750153999_n.jpg)

The caption says, "Clocking & setting the mill ready to machine valve seats on a fabricated cylinder block"
The cylinder block is from the 6.5litre Mercedes Benz W125 engine and the mill is a walk-in, drive -through, 4/5 axis workstation from Hass. The cylinder head is set over at the required angle on that massive 4th axis trunnion.
He looks happy in his work, so would you or I, given half a chance to do the same.



(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/27336397_988040001362321_316812186899714586_n.jpg)

Doing exactly the same job on my 1/3 scale 1.5 litre W165 cylinder blocks. Almost the same set-up, except I am using a sine table instead of the 4th axis trunnion and  a tiny 3-axis Emco F1 Mill instead of a 4/5-axis Haas. (about 1/2 million £,$,Euro difference)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/27072554_988040394695615_5599840220607379971_n.jpg)

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: petertha on February 27, 2018, 02:48:51 AM
Beautiful work Mike.

I wanted to ask about the epoxy for the exhaust port stubs, was it their regular stuff (500-600F), or a more specialized adhesive like this?
https://www.jbweld.com/products/j-b-extremeheat

...screwed in bronze valve seats. Wow, going to watch for that. Watchmaker stuff.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 27, 2018, 12:58:01 PM
Hi Petertha,

I am using the regular (500-600*F) JB Weld on the cylinder blocks. The blocks are water-cooled aluminium, so I don't expect a temperature gradient above 240*F, even around the exhaust ports. The regular JB Weld should have an ample operating temperature reserve (I hope). JB Weld has a high filler content, so does not go soft and gooey at higher temperatures, like an unfilled epoxy (eg. Araldite). The only problem with JB Weld with all those fillers, is the risk of tracking when subjected to EHT voltages; spark plugs, distributors etc.

In order to avoid the "watchmaker stuff", I simplified the design and combined the valve guides and valve seats into one screw-in piece of bronze. That way I could ensure the valve guides, valve seats and the retainer thread were all concentric. The were so many valve guides (64, plus spares) to make, I welcomed the simplified design. It did consume an enormous amount of SAE 660 round bar.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on November 04, 2018, 08:01:12 PM
Part 11E Cylinder Heads (continued)

I realise that I have neglected posting progress on the Mercedes build for some time, I admit to having been completely distracted by the Bristol Jupiter.

The previous Part 11D, of this build log, shows how the basic cylinder heads were machined from a solid billet. In this installment I will describe how I made and installed the combined valve guides and seats. For my two engines I needed to make 64 valve guides, plus some spares to cater for unforeseen circumstances. It came as a shock to realise I needed to order 2.5 metres (8 foot) of 10mm diameter SAE 660 bronze bar. The bronze bar was chopped up into 60mm lengths so the valve guides could be made two at a time to reduce the amount of material otherwise lost for work holding.

To ensure concentrically, the valve cavity, the valve guide bore, the outer cylindrical and threaded portions were machined and reamed as a combined operation, all at the same setting. The bar was reversed in the collet chuck and the operation repeated on the opposite end.

After the first stage of machining was completed, the embryo valve guides were cut in two, machined to length before the outer part of the valve guide stem was machined on all the valves. The valve guides are now ready for installation into the cylinder heads.


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060723.JPG)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060724.JPG)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060725.JPG)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060727.JPG)


I used the regular (500-600*F) JB Weld to grout and seal the valve guides into the cylinder blocks. The blocks are water-cooled aluminium,  I don't expect a temperature gradient above 240*F, even around the exhaust ports, so the JB Weld should have an ample operating temperature reserve.

You will notice the valve seats have been left with a sharp 90* edge. I intend to cut the seats to 45* and lap in the valves at a later stage. There has been too much repetitive work on the valve guides to even contemplate machining more than 64 valves at this stage.

The last photo in this group shows a long 4mm ball mill entering each port and boring through the side wall of the bronze valve guides to siamese each pair of valves with their inlet or exhaust ports

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060728.JPG)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060730.JPG)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060734.JPG)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060739.JPG)


After the valve guides were finished, I turned my attention to machining the seats and tapping the four spark plug holes in each cylinder head 40 x 32 TPI.

Then I turned my attention to the two coolant outlets, which screw into the top of the cylinder heads and take the hot coolant back to the radiator. I machined all the parts for the coolant outlet from a single block of aluminium. The finished part reminds me of some strange Martial Arts weapon. The individual parts were cut off the block, bored through before being filed to a smooth round shape. The tubular part of the coolant outlet pipe was turned and screw threaded. The whole assembly was then screwed into the cylinder head. They were bonded and sealed into the cylinder head's water jacket with yet more JB Weld.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060741.JPG)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060747.JPG)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060754.JPG)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060755.JPG)


The final set of photos show the (nearly) finished cylinder heads with the corrugated cylinder water jacket attached. The top photo shows a full size Mercedes W125 beautifully recreated by Crosswaite & Gardner. It was my inspiration for the quarter scale W165. Both are similar in concept and construction, but differ, both in size and in design details.

The tea mug in the bottom photos says it all.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/15591328_1368411676536638_1899407223159042440_o~0.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060769.JPG)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060770.JPG)

Stay tuned to this channel as well

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on November 04, 2018, 08:17:21 PM
Hello Mike,

I am always amazed at your work and so glad that you share these progress photos.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on November 04, 2018, 08:34:03 PM
Excellent progress  :praise2:  :praise2: Glad to see Mr happy is still there  :)
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: b.lindsey on November 04, 2018, 08:54:50 PM
Speechless Mike. Absolutely gorgeous work.

Bill
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on November 04, 2018, 10:27:32 PM
Truly impressive - both the amount of bronze and the result  :praise2: + I'm again reminded about how small it actually is  :o

It will be a true juvel just like the Bristol when you finish them  :ThumbsUp:       :cheers:    :popcorn:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Art K on November 05, 2018, 03:21:23 AM
Mike,
Glad to see you sparing time from the Bristol to work on the MB W165. Wow that looks like a lot of very repetitive work on those valve guides. I hope you did them on a cnc machine. It's great to see the full size as well as the one on the coffee cup. Great work!
Art
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on November 05, 2018, 11:36:23 AM
That's awesome!    Love watching you work Mike!!!

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on November 05, 2018, 12:19:55 PM
Thanks everyone, for calling in and saying hello. It's greatly appreciated.

With the demise of real world model engineering shows, our forum is taking over and becoming our own virtual model show, and one with a world wide audience.

Roger, I do not know what I would do if Mr Happy failed the 'bounce off the floor' test one day.

Cheers   :cheers: :cheers:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: petertha on November 06, 2018, 08:06:09 PM
Gorgeous work Mike. What are your thoughts behind JB weld on valve cage as opposed to some of the other high temp 'glues' out there, Loctite & such.  Were you after increased viscosity, materials based,  better results from past experience etc?
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on November 06, 2018, 08:35:03 PM
Hello petertha,

Loctite is not a glue, it is a thread locking retainer based on an anaerobic curing acrylic. It cures (sets into a solid acrylic) in the absence of air, the more confined the space, the better it cures. It has no gap filling capability, in fact it may fail to go off, if there is space between the two components.

I considered several high temperature epoxies. I rather liked the look of a silver loaded (powdered silver) high temperature aerospace epoxy because of it's heat conductive properties. Unfortunately it was only available in Jumbo Jet size containers and the price was out of this world. Sorry no samples.

Standard JB Weld has a reasonably high working temperature, due partially to it's high solids content. The cylinders are water cooled, which should keep the cylinder head temperature well within the epoxies temperature range. JB Weld is an affordable and easy to use material with a long working time. It has good gap filling capability, which I specifically wanted for grouting the cylindrical portion of the valve cage and it has a reasonable thermal conductivity.

Fingers crossed that it does everything I hope for. It's too late now, even if I discover a better material

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: JC54 on November 07, 2018, 12:11:51 AM
Hiya Mike, I have just read right through this build  :praise2: what can I add that already hasn't been said many times but SUPERB...  :old: :DrinkPint:   Reading the bit about the BRM's took me back more years than I care to count. My late Uncle Eric worked for BRM at Bourne at that time in the machine shop. BRM used to test their cars on an old WW2 aerodrome that is about half a mile away from where I live now. I remember when mum was learning to drive (Austin A40 Somerset) up there, Graham Hill came past us flat out. Mum screamed let go of the steering wheel and jammed the throttle down, Dad struggling to take control.. The A40 was more reliable than the V16 though.   :shrug:     John
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Art K on November 07, 2018, 03:06:56 AM
Mike,
Ah, but the real question is really, Can the JB weld joint imitate a weld fillet? :lolb:
Art
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: petertha on November 07, 2018, 06:56:35 AM
Loctite is not a glue, it is a thread locking retainer based on an anaerobic curing acrylic. It cures (sets into a solid acrylic) in the absence of air, the more confined the space, the better it cures. It has no gap filling capability, in fact it may fail to go off, if there is space between the two components.

Sorry my bad. I've actually done quite a bit of composites work & 'glue' is a unfortunate slang-ish expression I picked up from others for epoxy, even high end aerospace stuff.
Loctite does specify maximum diametrical gap fill in their literature, for example common ones like 609 = 0.005”, 680 = 0.015" along with viscosity & quite detailed temperature/strength profiles. That's kind of why I was asking because I was thinking the max gaps between your threaded components would be quite narrow & possibly favor retaining compounds over higher viscosity epoxy 'adhesive' if that's a safer word. But now that I see the temp/strength specs (680 for example) its not as high as I assumed it was. Even common JB appears to be quite a bit higher although words like 'withstand' isn't quite as rigorous as HDT type properties you might see in typical resin specs. https://www.jbweld.com/collections/epoxy-adhesives/products/j-b-weld-twin-tube

Sorry for the ramble, again beautiful work.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on November 07, 2018, 11:33:15 AM
Hello Petertha

I did some crude tests before opting for the JB Weld.  I made up three test samples consisting on a 3/8 nut and bolt locked with A) Loctite 638 high strength retainer B) standard Araldite 24 hour two pack epoxy (unfilled) C) standard JB Weld two pack epoxy (high filler content).  The samples were prepared and allowed to set off and cure for a few days. In each case the nut was well secured to the bolt and could not be shifted with a long spanner.

The samples were secured in the bench vice and heated with a propane blow torch. I did not have a thermocouple handy, so cannot say what temperatures were reached. After a few minutes, the Loctite sample softened, as expected, making it possible to remove the nut without much difficulty. The Araldite also softened and  became gummy, allowing the nut to be removed with a little more effort. The JB Weld survived the torch flame for considerable longer. The steel was a beep blue when I eventually got the nut to shift. It put up a good fight and convinced me that it was a good choice for the Mercedes Valve cages.

Other, may have different opinions and achieve different mileage.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: petertha on November 08, 2018, 06:22:40 AM
Thanks for your detailed reply, Mike. I want to integrate your exhaust boss/flange technique for the radial engine heads I'm building. It cleanly solves a lot of issues over the designers configuration of threaded nuts, partial threads, washer seal, lipped tubes... and just plain looks more like the typical FS casting. I didn't have a good feel for JB in this application but this discussion has re-focused my attention. I have some sacrificial head blanks & will do a some prototyping & similar heat test which I'll post separately.The valve cup/cages will probably benefit from the same treatment. Thanks for your patient answers.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: zeeprogrammer on November 08, 2018, 03:58:53 PM
I was just about to complain about the lack of photos and then found the ones at the end of the page. Wow.  :o Awesome!
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on November 08, 2018, 11:39:15 PM
Hello Petertha,

The screw-in exhaust boss / flange technique has the advantage that the act of screwing home the exhaust boss brings one half of the screw thread and one mating face into direct metal to metal contact. This has obvious advantages for heat transfer, the epoxy acts as a grout to fill the slight clearance behind the thread, as well as acting as a retainer. The same is true for the screw-in bronze valve cage. The Mercedes valve inserts had the additional complication of a parallel, cylindrical section. I liberally coated the valve guide and the bore of the cylinder head with the stiff epoxy paste which extruded everywhere when I screwed home the valve cage , I felt comfortable that all the void space was filled. I am not sure this would have happened with a thin runny sealant.

JB Weld was the best option I could afford. You may be lucky and find a source of a silver (powder) loaded high temp epoxy.... aerospace or electronics industries? which would give better thermal conductivity. I came across a suitable product (sorry lost the reference) a high silver content epoxy which could be used either; without a catalyst as a non hardening thermal paste, or with the catalyst to provide a bonded joint as well. The product was only supplied as two 1Kg drums. I only needed a couple of spoon fulls.

Now it's your turn, to tell us all about your radial engine.  :popcorn: :popcorn:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: petertha on November 09, 2018, 02:40:22 AM
Now it's your turn, to tell us all about your radial engine.  :popcorn: :popcorn:

Well I don't want to taint your nice W165 build post with my unrelated project. But since you asked I'll attach some 1-time pics to provide a clearer visual. This is my first engine or any machining project of consequence for that matter. Plans are from Ohrndorf. 2 winters ago I built a cylinder stack 'prototype' & told myself if I got that far I would continue on. Last winter I got the crankcase 'middle stuff' done. This winter the goal is to make 5 cylinders for real & take it to completion. So here you can see renderings of the induction tube entering the head & short exhaust stacks coming off a/p design. The valve ports are L-R symmetrical. The hex nut screws into the head & tube is sealed on an inner face by via raised lip, somewhat like I've seen on RC 4S engines. I'd like to do away with as much of the fiddly bits as possible & integrate a JB epoxied aluminum boss with bolt-on flange. Still some issues to sort out as the ports enter at an angle, boss would interrupt some shallow cooling fin features. And I need to pay attention to bolt size & layout pattern for tube mating & removal. So to-be-continued story which I will update elsewhere. Btw my bronze valve cup/guides are not threaded in the head like yours, so that may restrict my adhesive choice. More thinking required. Thanks for your interest.

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on January 04, 2019, 12:48:09 PM
Part 12  Overhead Cam Boxes

Overnight, this built reached a major milestone: 50,000 views. Wow!! that's a lot.   A big thank you to everyone who has called in to check progress and make kind comments. To celebrate, here is a big  progress update for you to enjoy.

Mercedes Benz in Stuttgart were given only eight months to design and build the two W165 cars before their first and only race. The tiny 1.5 litre eight cylinder engines were miniature versions of the much bigger V12 3 litre engines. The bigger engines were cut down from a V12 to a V8 configuration. Many parts had to be reduced in size, but some parts, like the cam shafts and valve gear, were simply reduced in length from 6 cylinders per bank to four cylinders. The result was somewhat ungainly, a huge cylinder head and valve gear perched on top of a block of tiny cylinders.

The next parts to be made were the overhead cam boxes. There are four cam boxes on each engine and they are all slightly different. Each cylinder block has two cam boxes. The inlet side, cam box being a mirror image of the exhaust side, cam box. Also both cam boxes on the right hand cylinder bank are longer due to the stagger of the cylinder bores. With four variations on the cam box design, there was plenty of scope for a cock-up.

I purchased a large slab of 20mm thick aluminium alloy, grade HE30 TF (6082 T6), to make the 8 cam boxes. This material has more than adequate strength and machines well, without the need for coolant. I cut the billet into eight pieces, approximately 200mm (8"0) long by 40mm (1.6") wide using a bandsaw. Because each cam box was slightly different to each other, I decided to machine each cam box individually, rather than as a batch. The first step was to mount the billet in the machine vice and mill out the central pocket down to the level cam bearing seats. Not very exciting but it did produce a lot of chips

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060803.JPG)


The second stage was to pocket out the bottom on the cam box and bore the holes for the eight valves and valve springs

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060806.JPG)


Next, I machined the outer profile of the top flange

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060810.JPG)


This photo shows one of the com boxes with most of the internal detail finished. The top cover bolt holes have been drilled and tapped M1.6, The cam bearing bolt holes have been drilled and tapped M3.0 and the cylinder head bolt holes have all been drilled 2.5mm. You can also see, near the top, where the cam finger follower shaft will lay.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060814.JPG)


I machined the insides detail all of the exhaust side cam boxes before rewriting the control program to machine the four mirror image cam boxes for the inlet side.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060851.JPG)


Next the embrio cam boxes were mounted on a jig plate to machine the external profiles. Here the Jig plate is set at an angle to achieve this slopped face.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060883.JPG)


With all eight cam boxes completed, I turned my attention to making the Cam shaft bearing blocks. I will be using sintered bronze bushings to carry the camshafts. Here you can see the first stage of manufacture. All the bearing blocks have been externally shaped and bolted together as pairs.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060896.JPG)


The individual bearing blocks are bored to receive the sintered bronze bush and drilled and reamed for the finger fllowere shaft. This simple jig plate ensues that all bearing blocks were machined identically.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060904.JPG)


With so many cam boxes and cam shaft bearings, it was essential to stamp a serial number on each part to identify it's correct position. Here you can see one of the bearing caps and it's sintered bronze bush. A ground steel bar is being used to align the cam shaft bearings, you can also see the finger follower shaft. The socket head screws are a temporary measure to aid quick assembly, correct size hex head bolts will be used in the final assembly.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060915.JPG)


Here you can see the dummy cam shaft and bearing assembly beside one of the cam boxes.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060913.JPG)


Here the dummy cam shaft and bearing assembly are installed within one of the cam boxes and a pair of cam boxes in position on a cylinder block. You can see the valve guides pocking though the base of the cam box.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060910.JPG)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060908.JPG)


This final photo shows the result of all that work. Eight cam boxes mounted on four cylinder blocks for the two replica Mercedes Benz W165 engines.

If you ask, "Does CNC make engine building easy?     I will neply, " CNC machining doesn't necessarily make it easy, but it does make very complex parts possible"

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060921.JPG)

Stay tuned

Mike

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: sco on January 04, 2019, 01:10:11 PM
Fantastically detailed post Mike and some awesome work on show - no surprise that there are so many views.

Best wishes,

Simon.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Stuart on January 04, 2019, 01:20:02 PM
Mike all I can say is. WOW

Now when I look at my efforts I am even more dissatisfied, not to say they are no good but .......... :slap:

Keep up the good work always a pleasure to see your progress
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on January 04, 2019, 01:28:49 PM
Great Post Mike!!!! I'm very glad to see this! 

Been in need of a W165 fix for some time!

 8)

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on January 04, 2019, 01:28:56 PM
Good progress Mike, seems a shame to put rocker covers on the top though I expect you will display one "exploaded" with stand offs.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on January 04, 2019, 02:28:29 PM
Splendid work as ever  :praise2:  :praise2: Thank you for the little bit of design history  :ThumbsUp: I believe that Austin Rover used a cut down Rover V8 as the basis for the V6 engine used in the MG Metro 6R4.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on January 04, 2019, 06:39:12 PM
Great to see another update posted about this fantastic project  :praise2:

Quote
If you ask, "Does CNC make engine building easy?     I will reply, " CNC machining doesn't necessarily make it easy, but it does make very complex parts possible"

As someone who so far only has done 2.5D CNC to make dual sided PCB prototypes - I'm rather well aware of some of the many possible ways it still can go wrong - so you have my full "sympathy" (for lack of better word) for why you only did one at a time.
I would also have been worried that I didn't make the mistake of "mixing the files" - milling one side with the file for A and by mistake milling the other side with the file for B, C & D instead of A - been there, done that  :facepalm:  In my case less than £1 in materials + time ....
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Art K on January 05, 2019, 05:10:44 PM
Mike,
I saw this posted yesterday but had spent to much time on the computer already to be able to focus on reading it. This is great work! And yes it is way to easy to confuse and pick a similar program. At least you had two of each cam box.
Art
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on January 05, 2019, 07:12:55 PM
Hello everybody, thanks for calling in.

In an industrial setting, one tool path program can be used to make thousands and thousands of identical components. By contrast, in the model engineering world, it can take a thousand different tool path programs to make a single engine. The industrial guys can afford to invest the extra time to fully optimise their tool path code, to minimise production time. Industrial machines are often expected to run unattended, all day and overnight producing  bucket fulls of identical parts. And as they say 'time is money'.

For engine building, I found it safest to create the tool path program(s) for a single component just before it is manufactured. Once the required number of parts have been made I delete that program from memory. That way, I cannot select the wrong one by mistake. If I need to remake a part, then I have to rewrite a new program. The base information for each program is always contained in the master CAD drawing. When the part(s) have been made, I delete that tool path program.

A single component such as a Cam Box for the W165 may need five or six separate programs, one for each cutter, drill size or set-up. I have got into the habit, because it has proved to be the safest approach, of producing the tool path code on the day I machine the part or parts. I don't normally spend a lot of time tuning or optimising the code, It's often quicker to stand by the machine, changing the tools manually and adjusting the feed rate, by ear, for different parts of the program. Sometimes the tool path code, produced by a CAM program, can waste time with unnecessary line of code which only machine thin air. These redundant line of code can of course be edited out,  but that takes time. I often simply increase the feed rate to maximum to quickly work off these unnecessary lines.

There are many roads to a destination, it's all about finding a method, or route, that works for you.

Mike

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: fumopuc on January 05, 2019, 08:08:19 PM
Hi Mike, your are not alone, I do it the same way.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Art K on January 05, 2019, 08:46:55 PM
I use Sprutcam for a cam program and when it seems to be "machining air" I see if I can tweak it. I don't like the sliding scale on the screen no mechanical one one the Tormach. A little thing about what it's doing and looking at the screen instead. But that's just me.
Art
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on January 05, 2019, 09:25:26 PM
Hello Art

My control program is LinuxCNC which is basically the same software behind your Tormach. I always prefer to use the keyboard, short cut button commands to change parameters. Like you, I am not comfortable with using the mouse to move the sliders, key strokes are safer, a physical knob or handwheel would be better still.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Art K on January 05, 2019, 11:41:11 PM
The short cut commands are great but I don't tend to remember them, use them. Ditto on the non-existent knob.
Art