Model Engine Maker

Supporting => Vehicles & Models => Topic started by: zeeprogrammer on February 03, 2014, 09:34:18 PM

Title: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 03, 2014, 09:34:18 PM
Made you look.

But if you're here for the latter subject you'll be disappointed.
You are welcome to add your own appropriately related posts to this thread. I'm sure they will be appreciated.

As for the former subject...well you might still be disappointed.
It's the PMR Dynamo. Well known. Done and posted thousands of times.
But this one is mine and therefore unique (even if I have to add a tu-tu when finished).

I've been sitting on this model for nearly a year. I'd had big plans for it but not having had time to do any machining for so long I decided to simply make it stock. One of the ideas I'd had was to make a small diorama. The top of the dynamo has a real bad parting line and I was thinking of making a tiny catwalk to go across with a ladder coming up. Some HO figures, a few boxes, maybe a wall...you get the picture.

But job, daughters, daughters' animals...LIFE!...has been in the way and I don't know how much time I have available.
I need a hit of oil so I'll just do what I can do.

So to make this more interesting...come one, come all. Post a joke. Take a jab. Sing a song. (Keep it clean.)

So here's a pic of what you get...

A frame casting. Well made except for the parting line on the top.
Shaft and brush end aluminum castings.
A pre-built armature.
Magnets, bushings, couple of bits of metals, brushes, screws.

Now I need to remember how to post pictures. For that matter...to take better pictures. Sorry about that.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Dynamo/contents_zps52552876.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Dynamo/contents_zps52552876.jpg.html)



Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 03, 2014, 09:41:50 PM
So you may have noticed the frame has already had some machining done.
My first mistake was not taking the family picture first.
(Or was my first mistake joining this forum?)
Additional mistakes to follow.

Here's the base milled...

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Dynamo/IMG_5645_zps9ca45a19.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Dynamo/IMG_5645_zps9ca45a19.jpg.html)

Boring. First time I've used this tool. At least with any success.
I used the 4-jaw and indicated the sides and top to get as centered as I could.
I was a little concerned about tilt but placing a parallel on the base seemed to show things were close enough.
It came out well.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Dynamo/castingboring_zps8c8d2ae4.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Dynamo/castingboring_zps8c8d2ae4.jpg.html)

I had a picture of facing one end but it was so out of focus there was no point.
This one isn't much better.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Dynamo/castingfaced_zps87fdfe99.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Dynamo/castingfaced_zps87fdfe99.jpg.html)

And this is no good either.
Drilled the holes for the mounting. You can see one scribe line that was off.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Dynamo/basedrilled_zps1181249c.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Dynamo/basedrilled_zps1181249c.jpg.html)

Next step is to spot faces the other side of the mounting holes.
I'd hoped I had a countersink but the 1/4" I need has too large a pilot.
The shaft of a 1/4" end-mill is too big to get past the frame.
Guess it's time to sacrifice a 1/4" drill bit and grind it down.

That's it thus far. No idea when the next installment will be.

But at least I got a little dirty.
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: b.lindsey on February 03, 2014, 09:45:48 PM
Nice to see you getting dirty Zee :)  Its a great project that you will enjoy I'm sure and you are already off to a good start!!

Bill
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: fcheslop on February 03, 2014, 09:47:54 PM
Nice to see you getting back in the saddle you know getting dirty is the only way to go.
Good luck
best wishes
frazer
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: mklotz on February 03, 2014, 10:23:57 PM
It's great to see you back, Carl.  I've missed your humor.

Re cutting pads and need for confined spaces cutter...

Go to Lowes or similar and look in their Dremel accessory cabinet.  Try to find something like this...

http://www.micromark.com/1and4-inch-straight-bit-for-dremel-trio,11408.html

or their straight wood router bit or their multi-tooth 1/4" cutter.  Dremel is very proud of their accessories but you might find something similar at HF or the like.  Remember, cutters meant for wood will work just fine on aluminum.

The alternative is to grind down the shaft of a 1/4" mill but that may be beyond your patience and equipment complement.
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 03, 2014, 11:41:36 PM
Thanks guys. I really appreciate the comments.
Marv..."I've missed your humor"...ah the pressure. I'll do my best.
I think this was on the other forum...but in any case...just wanted to say I think about you just about every time I come into the shop. Hard not too when there's this...

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/IMG_9504_zps2177a557.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/IMG_9504_zps2177a557.jpg.html)

All I need is some decent needles and a recommendation for a 'doctor'.

The dremel idea is a good one but the shaft may be a little short. Typical.
I do have a counter-sink that fits. It's 0.2 diameter. A bit short of the 0.25 but I'll have to (want to) make the nuts anyway (for I have none).
Think it's a problem to use a a slightly smaller 0.2 nut for a 1/8 bolt?

Say...do any of you have this problem? I apparently raised my daughters as friends. So today I got this...

Youngest is driving back from California. She's in Albuquerque right now.
Driving back with boyfriend. He got a speeding ticket. Now their engine light is on. And they're driving into a snowstorm.
And her stupid cat keeps trying to get into my shop.
She's on her way back to move in again.

Oldest is in London. Just got a job with the same company I work for.
She had dinner with the president of the company tonight. They talked wine, he stole her fries, and I was mentioned.
And her stupid dog keeps trying to get into my shop.
I just got her out of my house but she seems to show up every weekend.

I'm 5 years from retirement and I can't get rid of these boogers.
I'd be happy to unload the cat and dog.
At least with the kids I can say 'get it yourself' or 'flush your own toilet'.

Hm...a preview reminds me I need to remember how to make the photos smaller.
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: vcutajar on February 03, 2014, 11:52:22 PM
So, when this build is finished, will you be showing this famous photograph? :ROFL:

Vince
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on February 04, 2014, 12:12:04 AM
Ok D head, tell your youngest to enjoy a life setting moment, tell you're oldest to step her wine game up and let's get poor old pops some pay advancing recognition.  The check engine light is probably due to some "engineering glitch" , tell him to keep driving till the B'tard quits. Hey, that's my opinion and By God, it ought to be yours :lolb: :lolb: it's all good, you could have been Payton Manning this morning :lolb: :lolb:
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: mklotz on February 04, 2014, 12:18:10 AM
Quote
All I need is some decent needles and a recommendation for a 'doctor'.

Ah, so that explains the sudden stabbing pains I've been feeling in my head...or maybe it's the gin...Naw, can't be that.

Quote
The dremel idea is a good one but the shaft may be a little short.

Drill a hole that matches the diameter of the shaft into the end of a piece of round stock.  Slather shaft with Loctite and insert.  When done, reclaim the tool by heating to break the Loctite bond.

0.5*(0.2-.125) = 0.0375  seems a bit thin for a nut but it's up to you.  Maybe some sort of delicate Victorian (seems a contradiction) style or a nice art noveau fantasy nut.

Yeah, kids.  There's gotta be a better way to propagate the species.  (But then my misanthropy says that propagating the race may be a bad idea.)  As I told my sons-in-law when they proudly announced the imminent arrival of their firstborn,  "Life as you knew it is over."
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: Don1966 on February 04, 2014, 12:55:33 AM
Carl glad to see you back buddy. You've made a great start on the dynamo so don't get detoured by any mishaps. I know it's hard to stay focused with daughter problems. I have two of my own and I married them off both together. My youngest ended up getting divorced and I had to pay for the divorce also. Well she's remarried and so far all is good. The thing about daughters is one leaves and two or three come back if you know what I mean. Cheer up bud your not alone here.

Don
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: sshire on February 04, 2014, 01:05:03 AM
Carl
Glad to see you making some chips.
A thought. Why not use the dynamo to power a "check engine" light on the spinster.
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: Dave Otto on February 04, 2014, 01:10:40 AM
Hey Carl

Good to see you working in the shop again!

I know what you mean about the critters; we have 2 dogs a tortoise, two fish tanks and a rabbit! Only the dogs belong to me and my wife. The tortoise belonged to my son and when he lost interest my wife took over (she likes him). My daughter is off to collage in the fall so guess who gets to tend the fish and the bunny? No not me that will be my wife's job  :naughty:.

Anyway it will be great to see some posts from you again.

Dave


 
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 04, 2014, 01:33:33 AM
Ah, so that explains the sudden stabbing pains I've been feeling in my head...or maybe it's the gin...Naw, can't be that.

It's the gin. My wife drinks it and all I ever hear about is headaches.
You can't miss with a 'stinking hoppie'. Most any kind of vodka (cause after the 1st one it doesn't matter), some tipsy onions, and crushed ice. Jelly jar is required.

The thing about daughters is one leaves and two or three come back if you know what I mean.

Well that's it exactly. I always wanted daughters. They tend to stay close to the family. I hadn't figured on the garbage they brought home though. I guess I should've. I was once that garbage. I've since been upgraded to junk (trash, crap,...take your pick...it's an upgrade.)

A thought. Why not use the dynamo to power a "check engine" light on the spinster.

 :lolb: Good one.

so guess who gets to tend the fish and the bunny? No not me that will be my wife's job

I'll take that guess. It won't be your wife. You poor slob. Send me a PM and I'll let you in on a secret.
Never mind. I'll tell you now. If you thought you won...you didn't. Be happy with that.
Because if you think you won, even if you didn't, and she thinks you think you won and are happy about it then, she's happy about it and that makes two happy people.
Do not make the mistake of trying to make her think you think you're happy...for that leads to failure and unhappiness.
They think ahead whereas we think behind.

Or some such nonsense.

Point is...let them think you think you're happy. Tis the road to bliss.
Seems a bit chauvinistic...but you can turn that argument around.

Obviously I've been enjoying my own advice I gave to Marv.

Eric...yeah, I've been driving around with a check engine light for the last year. The car is 18 years old. I figure if it dies on the way to work...I have a day off.

Oh right...I'm supposed to be machining. Well not tonight. Gotta get over the effects of that oil hit.
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: PatJ on February 04, 2014, 03:03:12 AM
Cool beans Carl.

You are doing two things I really like; machining castings and messing with electricity.
I doesn't get much better than that (except making casting maybe).

My daughter moved back last year.
I am her auto mechanic and general repair man.
I know the story.

Good to see you doing cool stuff.

Pat J
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: steamer on February 04, 2014, 03:51:18 AM
ZEEEEEE!     The Zeeestah!....Making chips!

Life is good! ;D


Dave
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: joe d on February 04, 2014, 01:46:13 PM
Zee....  Zee-a-rama! 

Good to see you back.  But.... isn't there supposed to be some M&Ms in those photos?

Cheers,  Joe
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: Alan Haisley on February 04, 2014, 07:26:06 PM
Yeah, one or two M&Ms in each shot so we can judge the size of things. And if they don't pick up too much cutting fluid you can use new ones for the next picture.
Alan
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on February 04, 2014, 08:05:06 PM
You can switch to Gummie Bears, we don't mind :lolb:

Whiskey
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: Bearcar1 on February 04, 2014, 09:07:54 PM
Ha! Ha! Zeep! I am so glad to see you back again, it has been far too along for me. I have missed your humor and approach to machining tremendously…… It is a pleasure of r me to see/ watch you in action again………… :pinkelephant:


BC1
Jim
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 05, 2014, 12:20:05 AM
Thanks all. Your comments really mean a lot.
I came home today with hope to do some more. As usual...I was pulled from my hole.

The M&M guy was/is Dean W. I did have a little M&M pin (mini-zee) that I used a lot...but mini-zee decided to move to another machinist's home.  :'(

I'm trying to come up with a suitable min-zee replacement...but like me...they're hard to find.  ;D

One daughter has made it to Missouri with her car encased in ice.
The other daughter is at a trade show in London and ran into a letch (an American one so it's particularly bad).  ;D
Daughter's stupid cat tore up a puzzle T and I were working on. Came home to a very unhappy T.
Other daughter's stupid dog couldn't wait for us to get home and thought our bedroom was an appropriate place to do her business.
Getting more snow and ice tonight.

The upsides...(there's always one)...

Daughters are safe.
I have fun thinking about how I might do away with the cat and dog.
And maybe I'll get another day off tomorrow and can get some machining done!

Life is bouncing between  :facepalm: and  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: Dave Otto on February 05, 2014, 01:22:38 AM
At least the rabbit, tortoise, and the fish have there own little homes within ours!  :lolb:

Sorry Carl I couldn't resist.

Dave
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 05, 2014, 01:26:45 AM
Before I forget...lest any one thinks I'm doing this while knowing what I'm doing...

I'm getting tips and techniques from IronHorse's thread back on HMEM where he has a log on the PMR Dynamo.
I've seen other builds or models as well (Marv has one) but I don't remember where so can't give credit to all. But it's due.

Not that there aren't gaps in those threads. IronHorse doesn't show facing the shaft and brush end castings.
So there will be opportunity to provide a 'unique' approach.  ;D

Just saw your post Dave. I've angled for a hamster, gerbil, or fish. All soundly rejected.
I don't know how my daughters get away with this.
(Well...yes I do. I'm such a sucker.)
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 08, 2014, 09:18:43 PM
A little more done.

Here's the shaft end casting faced to fit the frame.
I used the four jaw which allowed me to grab the front end and indicate as close to center as I could.
Then indicated along the face to get it as true as I could.
Close enough.
Then faced it and took it down a bit more to fit into the frame.
I'm pretty happy with the fit.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Dynamo/shaftendfacing_zpsb6669a0e.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Dynamo/shaftendfacing_zpsb6669a0e.jpg.html)

I did the same with the brush end casting.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Dynamo/endsfaced_zpsca84d140.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Dynamo/endsfaced_zpsca84d140.jpg.html)

They fit pretty well. Maybe a little off-center to the left but may not be noticeable unless you really look.

Later I'll put the frame in the vise, clamp an end on and spot and drill the mounting the holes.
Indicating the frame hole will get me close but because the end is just a little off...I'll have to adjust a little so the bolts are close to center of the...the...don't know what to call them...the bulgie outie things that will be spot faced.

As for the hole on each end that holds the bushing...that will be done once the ends are mounted.
Should be tricky. I remember Marv warning me about that. I have some ideas. But I figure the end result will show the bushing slightly off center. We'll see. There may be enough play inside the frame to have the armature a little off rather than the bushing. I'd rather have it look decent at the expense of efficiency.

Sorry folks. Not a funny post and I have no joke to provide.
I need your input for material.  ;D
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: steamer on February 08, 2014, 09:23:25 PM
That's coming along nice Carl.   Is the center boss concentric with the spigot diameter?   If so you're in like Flynn!.....

Dave
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on February 08, 2014, 09:39:31 PM
I think Zee, just as the women in your household, those sticking out bulgie things are. "BOSSES". You are moving right along, snow must be conducive to more shop time. I'm following along. I've been up cooking since midnight last night, so, I'm tired and can't help on the material input I don't think. Well, give me a few minutes and I'll see what I can do. >:D

Whiskey
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: Don1966 on February 08, 2014, 09:41:07 PM
Looking good from here Carl, I think your on a roll there buddy.

Don
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: mklotz on February 08, 2014, 09:51:12 PM
To work correctly, the armature should be spaced equidistant from both magnets.  Assuming equal magnet thickness, this means that the armature shaft should lie on the center line of the bore in the body of the dynamo.  Keep this in mind as you set up to drill for the shaft bearings.

And, since your humor bank has run dry, here's a little story that seems apropos to this group...

                                A Shipwreck Tale
There was this male engineer, on a cruise ship in the Caribbean for the first
time. It was wonderful, the experience of his life. He was being waited on hand
an foot. But, it did not last. A hurricane came up unexpectedly. The ship went
down almost instantly.

The man found himself, he knew not how, swept up on the shore of an island.
There was nothing else anywhere to be seen. No person, no supplies, nothing.
The man looked around. There were some bananas and coconuts, but that was it.
He was desperate, and forlorn, but decided to make the best of it. So for the
next four months he ate bananas, drank coconut juice and mostly looked to the
sea mightily for a ship to come to his rescue.

One day, as he was lying on the beech stroking his beard and looking for a
ship, he spotted movement out of the corner of his eye. Could it be true, was
it a ship? No, from around the corner of the island came this rowboat. In it
was the most gorgeous woman he had ever seen, or at least seen in 4 months. She
was tall, tanned, and her blond hair flowing in the sea breeze gave her an
almost ethereal quality. She spotted him also as he was waving and yelling and
screaming to get her attention. She rowed her boat towards him.

In disbelief, he asked, "Where did you come from? How did you get here"?

She said, "I rowed from the other side of the island. I landed on this island
when my cruise ship sank."

"Amazing," he said, "I didn't know anyone else had survived. How many of you
are there? Where did you get the rowboat? You must have been really lucky to
have a rowboat wash up with you!"

"It is only me," she said, "and the rowboat didn't wash up, nothing else did."

"Well then," said the man, "how did you get the rowboat?"

"I made the rowboat out of raw material that I found on the island," replied
the woman. "The oars were whittled from gum tree branches, I wove the bottom
from Palm branches, and the sides and stern came from a eucalyptus tree."

"But, but," asked the man, "what about tools and hardware, how did you do
that?"

"Oh, no problem," replied the woman, "on the south side of the island there is
a very unusual strata of alluvial rock exposed. I found that if I fired it to a
certain temperature in my kiln, it melted into forgeable ductile iron. I used
that for tools, and used the tools to make the hardware. But, enough of that,"
she said. "Where do you live?"

At last the man was forced to confess that he had been sleeping on the beach.

"Well, let's row over to my place," she said. So they both got into the rowboat
and left for her side of island.

The woman easily rowed them around to a wharf that led to the approach to her
place. She tied up the rowboat with a beautifully woven hemp rope. They walked
up a stone walk and around a Palm tree; there stood an exquisite bungalow
painted in blue and white.

"It's not much," she said, "but I call it home. Sit down please, would you like
to have a drink?"

"No," said the man, "one more coconut juice and I will puke."

"It won't be coconut juice," the woman replied. "I have a still; how about a
Pina Colada?" Trying to hide his continued amazement, the man accepted, and
they sat down on her couch to talk.

After a while, and they had exchanged their stories, the woman asked, "Tell me,
have you always had a beard?"

"No," the man replied, "I was clean shaven all of my life, and even on the
cruise ship."

"Well if you would like to shave, there is a man's razor upstairs in the
cabinet in the bathroom." So, the man, no longer questioning anything, went
upstairs to the bathroom. There in the cabinet was a razor made from a bone
handle, two shells honed to a hollow ground edge were fastened on to its end
inside of a swivel mechanism. The man shaved, showered and went back
downstairs.

"You look great," said the woman. "I think I will go up and slip into something
more comfortable." So she did.

And, the man continued to sip his Pina Colada. After a short time, the woman
returned wearing fig leafs strategically positioned and smelling faintly of
gardenia.

"Tell me," she asked, "we have both been out here for a very long time with no
companionship. You know what I mean. Have you been lonely, is there anything
that you really miss? Something that all men and woman need. Something that it
would be really nice to have right now."

"Yes there is," the man replied, as he moved closer to the woman while fixing a
winsome gaze upon her, "Tell me ... Do you happen to have an Internet
connection?"
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 08, 2014, 11:07:09 PM
That's coming along nice Carl.   Is the center boss concentric with the spigot diameter?   If so you're in like Flynn!.....

Good question. Perhaps (probably) not. In which case my thoughts are for naught. I'll have more on this from Marv's response.

I've been up cooking since midnight last night, so

Believe me Eric...you are well done. Cook anymore and you won't be an appealing dish.

Thanks for looking in Don. You are sparse with material I can work with. Smart man.

Marv...you're right of course. I did a quick check and found there wasn't a lot of play between the armature and magnets. And given Dave's question...I'm thinking I was wrong in what I said. I'd better make sure that armature is centered and not worry so much if the shafts stick out of ends perfectly center.

Thanks for the tale. But what an idiot. He should've been asking if she had any vodka.
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: mklotz on February 08, 2014, 11:19:15 PM
Now the question becomes, "How to make sure it (the armature shaft) is centered."

As usual, I've forgotten how I did it.  (The CRS gets worse every year.)

Let's try to put some ideas together for discussion and dissection...

Drill and tap body for each end plate.

Attach one end plate.

Mount body in mill vise with attached end plate face down.

Center body bore using DTI

With body still held in vise, attach other end plate to body.

Drill hole in top end plate and use that as guide to drill hole in bottom end plate.
(May require long "aircraft" drill.) 

Of course this procedure could be done in the lathe with the body held in the 4jaw.  (I have a vague memory of doing it in the lathe.)
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 09, 2014, 07:48:02 PM
Oh goodie. Job done and then I read Marv's post.  :o

Well this is what I did...

I put the frame in the mill vise. Both ends and bottom faced so hopefully it's nice and straight.
Then indicated the hole to find center.
Then clamped an end on. The end is a nice snug fit. Doesn't move around at all (except rotate).
Drilled and reamed to .249. I measured the bushings at .251. Hopefully they will press in well.
Here's a shot...

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Dynamo/bushingreamed_zps96969766.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Dynamo/bushingreamed_zps96969766.jpg.html)

We'll see how well I did later.

Then I rotated an end such that the mounting bosses (I remembered, Eric!) were as square as possible.
Drilled one with a #47 into the frame, changed to a #37 only deep enough to get through the end, and then tapped.
Repeat.
Repeat...CRAP!  :Mad:
Broke drill bit. (I'd forgotten how grabby aluminum is and didn't squirt some WD-40.)  :facepalm:
Managed to get it out but I'm out of #37 so I'm done for now.
Luckily there's a local hardware store that carries these (usually).

But cool! Got a little more machining, a little more shop smell...
A whole lot better than the complete absence over the last 10 months or so.
Withdrawal symptoms are subsiding a little.
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: steamer on February 09, 2014, 08:03:09 PM
Zeee!

Looks great!   Right on the button!

Glad to read your posts too!....been too long!

Dave
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: b.lindsey on February 09, 2014, 08:37:28 PM
You are moving right along Carl. Sorry about the drill but at least you got it out without damage. Always fun to follow your builds and even if your tu-tu isn't showing, your experience is and that's nice to see as well!!

Bill
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: mklotz on February 09, 2014, 08:47:22 PM
Here's hoping you can get the hole in the other end bell aligned with this one so the armature doesn't bind when it rotates.

I wasn't completely clear in my previous post but I would have drilled and tapped for all the end bell securing bolts before drilling for the bearings.  (I would also have provided witness marks so each end bell could be restored to its original location.)  Then my procedure would drill both bearing holes at once, aligned to the body centerline.
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 09, 2014, 10:07:01 PM
Thanks Bill.

Yeah Marv. That was an approach I'd considered but I had no confidence I'd even get close to aligning the holes. (Nor did I have a long enough drill bit). I don't know if it matters if I drilled the mounting holes first or not.

Witness marks will be made to identify which end a bell is for. But it may not really be necessary. The bells fit snugly in the frame with no slop. If I put the bell back on the right end of the frame and the holes don't match...it's a simple matter to rotate until they do. Even if the bell is on the wrong end...there's probably enough slop in the mounts and if not...just swap ends.

I guess all of this depends on how well I centered on the bore before clamping the bells on for drilling reaming.
Not sure how things may be bad if the bore isn't straight and square to the faced bed frame. I suppose the shaft may bind if the bushings are not true.

So excellent...we're getting set up for either...

"I should've listened to Marv" or "I lucked out"  ;D
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: fcheslop on February 09, 2014, 10:44:35 PM
If it should bind .Would an eccentric bush help or a self aligning bearing
Just a thought
Good luck
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: mklotz on February 09, 2014, 10:51:18 PM

So excellent...we're getting set up for either...

"I should've listened to Marv" or "I lucked out"  ;D

If it's the former I'll go as easy on you as I have in the past.  Depend on  it.
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 09, 2014, 11:02:15 PM

So excellent...we're getting set up for either...

"I should've listened to Marv" or "I lucked out"  ;D

If it's the former I'll go as easy on you as I have in the past.  Depend on  it.

I will have to.
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: Alan Haisley on February 10, 2014, 03:23:18 AM
Fingers crossed that the armature comes out centered and non-binding.
Alan
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: Doc on February 10, 2014, 03:38:27 PM
Nice job Carl!

I had been thinking about something like this for one of my steamers to set up a display. Once I retire I think I'm going to hit a few shows. They have been asking me to show at the local show but right now just can't find the time.
 Anyway keep up the good work it looking good.
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 10, 2014, 11:12:19 PM
Thanks guys.

Going to order some drill bits tonight. I was going to run down to the hardware store...but why brave the ice and snow? Let some other poor soul who gets paid for it do it for me.
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: Rustkolector on February 11, 2014, 05:12:55 AM
Zee,
Sorry I am late to this thread. I have built two of these generators. Best way I found was to clamp the end bells in the 3 jaw by the center bearing boss. Run the tailstock up against it to square it up if necessary. Turn the centering step on the end bells that centers them in the machined bore in the frame. Close fit needed. Then drill, bore, and ream the bearing bores. You can probably skip the boring step, but I didn't. Drill the four mounting bolt holes in each end bell, and then transfer punch holes to the frame. 

One note of caution. My first generator build 5 years ago went well and it has about 80-90 hours on it with no problems. Second one done recently didn't go as well. The Oilite bushing OD is oversized for an interference fit with the nominal bore diameter in the drawings. The bushing ID didn't crush down enough resulting in too much armature shaft clearance. When testing it as a motor, the armature shaft chattered in the bushings at various speeds. I thought I could keep it running outside the chattering RPM ranges but no luck. The shaft scores quickly. PM replaced the bushings and armature, but clearance was still too great and it chattered again. I replaced the bushings with RC sealed ball bearings. All is well now. Use larger pulley diameters rather than increased tension to prevent any drive belt slippage. 

Jeff
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 11, 2014, 11:26:44 AM
Thanks Jeff.

I had tried holding the bells by the boss with the 3-jaw but was worried about having enough to hold onto. I wish I'd thought about using the tailstock to square it. I had indicated but that was an iffy process. The other reason I wasn't too sure about holding the boss was whether the casting of it was centered well enough. I'd come across (somewhere) some comments about it not necessarily being so. So as you saw, I used a 4-jaw and indicated the rim.

Several months ago I'd mentioned doing this and got suggestions to use ball bearings. But I don't expect to run this much more than  "yay it works" and decided to go stock.

Good tip on the pulley. Thanks.
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: arnoldb on February 11, 2014, 05:53:36 PM
Another latecomer - It's REALLY good to see you back in the shop Zee  ;D

Can't offer much advice with castings, so I'll just be along for the joyride.

Kind regards, Arnold
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 11, 2014, 11:27:46 PM
Thanks Arnold.

And now for something entirely different...


 :cussing: :cussing: :cussing:
 :rant: :rant: :rant:
I broke down and went to my favorite hardware store.
IT'S OUT OF BUSINESS!!!
Geeeaaaaaahhhhh!!!
 :'( :'( :'(
The one place I could find little tidbits - drill bits of unknown sizes, bolts and nuts of all sizes and types...both metric and Imperial.
Grub screws! I could get grub screws there!
 :'( :'( :'(
A sad sad day.
I sure hope it wasn't my weak patronage that put them under.

Hm...I see that a 5/64" bit is 0.0781 and a #47 is 0.0785. Hm...
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: mklotz on February 11, 2014, 11:36:46 PM

Hm...I see that a 5/64" bit is 0.0781 and a #47 is 0.0785. Hm...

And both are damn close to 2 mm = 0.07874"
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on February 12, 2014, 12:21:07 AM
That's a shame Zee. It's happening everywhere. There were those few that held their ground during the first "big box" squeeze. However, with soaring overheads, lack of bulk purchase power, and the fact that most of us poor independent shmucks don't have post graduate degrees, I fear we may all have to start shopping the old inter web more and more. The big boxes just ain't gonna carry what we need for those "Aw crap" moments. Kinda on topic yet off topic. How many times have you walked into a retail outlet and ask about a product and had the salesperson say; "Have you checked our web site?" I just want to say; is that where you find your paycheck each week, on the website,  Gimme a break here. Read my lips, "shut up Eric"  :lolb: :lolb:

Whiskey
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: Maryak on February 12, 2014, 06:15:12 AM
How many times have you walked into a retail outlet and ask about a product and had the salesperson say; "Have you checked our web site?" I just want to say; is that where you find your paycheck each week, on the website,  Gimme a break here. Read my lips, "shut up Eric"  :lolb: :lolb:

Whiskey

No.....................but I have to go to my bank's website to see if our pensions have been paid. Does anybody these days pay their employees, their creditors their utility bills etc in cash? Seems to me we only need cash for small or discount retail sales outlets. You can even buy a Big Mac on credit!! ask me how I know :lolb:

And not forgetting WELCOME BACK ZEE

Best Regards
Bob
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 12, 2014, 10:57:52 AM
Marv...a 2mm? Of course! Why I'll just run down to the store and....aw rats.

Eric...yeah it's sad to see the small shops go. So easy to browse and find the oddity on the web. And so often can get near next day delivery. But restaurants and diners need not worry until hot grits -n- gravy can be delivered.

You can even buy a Big Mac on credit!!

But not gamble. There's a difference?
Thanks for the welcome back Bob.

=====================

Made some progress last night. The 5/64 bit worked fine.
If the snow keeps me home tomorrow we should find out if Marv gets "rats - you're right" or a "ha on you!"
If it's the latter...is this project worth it? I have serious doubts.
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 13, 2014, 12:52:04 AM
Crapola.

Can't I trademark, service mark, or register that? It should be mine.

This is what happens when you try and machine yet allow family to interrupt you every few minutes...

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Dynamo/enddonebooboo_zpsadad65a9.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Dynamo/enddonebooboo_zpsadad65a9.jpg.html)

Boo-boo #1: See the right side? I checked the height...went to the left side...milled it...then went back to the right. Stupid. So I milled the boss right off.

Boo-boo #2: See the top left. Not very well centered. Not sure how that happened.

Maybe boo-boo #3. See the center. Looks off center but we don't know yet if the boss is off center, Marv is right, or I'm lucky.

Boo-boo#4: Which I hadn't mentioned yet. I think the thickness of the rim is wrong.

But! If the armature doesn't bind...it should still work.

Root Cause:
Not taking my time.

Maybe I can register this one...I use it often...

"Crap, crap, and crap."  :lolb:
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: b.lindsey on February 13, 2014, 01:38:58 AM
Carl, if need be, call the PMR folks...they are good about supplying replacement castings and at a reasonable price too. They understand we all make boo-boos!

Bill
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 13, 2014, 01:47:24 AM
Carl, if need be, call the PMR folks...they are good about supplying replacement castings and at a reasonable price too. They understand we all make boo-boos!

Bill

Might do. But only at my expense. It's my boo-boo. And only if I really screwed up the hole for the bushing and it turns out that Marv was right.  ;D

If the dynamo works...I'll put a little model of myself nearby. Then no one will notice the boo-boo and will focus their 'comments' on me. I'm quite used to that. If I weren't...I wouldn't still me here.  :lolb:

So long as it's fun...I don't mind stubbing my toe.
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: Don1966 on February 13, 2014, 01:51:02 AM
Carl that should be to much of a problem cut it bigger and just put a plug in. The other two holes are for the brushes, shouldn't make much different. My I ask why you didn't bore the bushing hole while it was in the lathe, it would of been true to the flange face and centered.
Cheer up buddy and get after it.

Don
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 13, 2014, 02:28:18 AM
M[a]y I ask why you didn't bore the bushing hole while it was in the lathe, it would of been true to the flange face and centered.

Very good question. The answer however would reveal various weaknesses in my thinking that, while known to all, I would rather not reinforce their correctness. That is, I'm trying to avoid the "I told you so" and "I knew that would happen". A rather futile endeavour (which when you think about it...is still better than crickets chirping).

It all goes back to what Marv was (trying to) teach me long ago. Think about the order of operations etc.

I was stuck on the idea that if I centered the frame in the mill...then I could ensure the end bells and bushing would be centered. It did not occur to me that since I had made the bells to fit the frame...it should already be centered in the lathe.

So...lesson to any newbie following along...I'm making mistakes. Don't do what I do. Question what I do. Learn from my mistakes.

I take no responsibility for fools following fools.  ;D Unless I'm the following fool. Which makes me responsible only for myself.

Time to go. Snow has started. Got gas for the generator. Kids are home. Got a belly full of pizza. Best friend doesn't need chemo. We're partying.  :cartwheel: Glass needs filling.

Take care my friends.
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: mklotz on February 13, 2014, 04:32:14 PM
Sigh.
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: Don1966 on February 13, 2014, 05:58:37 PM
 :???:
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 13, 2014, 07:00:19 PM
Sigh.
:???:
;D
Allow me to translate..."I told you so" but with a touch of frustration in having to say it and not really wanting to.  :Lol:
Am I right Marv?

So. I milled down the other post so it 'looked' more like the other goofy one. Yay.
Then I turned down a bit of aluminum to fit the bushings so I could use it to press the bushings into the bells. Yay.
Pressed the bushing. Yay.
At this point things go awry again. Which I suppose is good as I'd rather be on a continuum than stuck at a point.

One bushing was a bit tight. Could it have been crushed? Might I not have bored large enough?
A quick run through with a .124 reamer seemed to do the trick. Yay.

Put the armature in and the bells on the frame.
The armature length prevents the bells from reaching the frame.  :cussing:
There's a gap of about 0.045.  :o
Bummer.

It's not the frame. Called for 1.56 and I measure 1.557. So you 'could' say it contributes 0.003 but that's really nothing.)
Doesn't look like the bells either. The rims are supposed to be 1/8 and I'm actually a bit thicker on both.
Doesn't look like the bushings either. They're supposed to be flush to the inside surface...and they look right.

Can't really press the bushings in any more. The armature ends will rub against the inside of the bells.
Bad armature?

The lesson here (there are others) is I should have measured the length of the armature. Then calculate the actual frame length and/or bell rim thickness and verify to drawing.

Right now my options are:
1) Machine a spacer to go between a bell (or bells) and the frame. That'd be pretty thin and wouldn't look good.
2) Order up some more parts and rename this thread "The dynamo and the tu-tu: redux"
Any other thoughts?
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on February 13, 2014, 07:08:06 PM
I say old boy, any chance of a piccy or two to show what's going on here. I think I know, however, just thinking has statistically gotten me into a bunch of trouble :lolb:. Let's not bin the stew till we see if we can make a casserole out of it 8)

Whiskey
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 13, 2014, 07:57:42 PM
Here you go...

This one shows the bells with bushings pressed in and the little tool I made for pressing.
I used an old cheapie drill press.
The tool was from the scrap box. The hole was already there and doesn't go very deep.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Dynamo/dynamo_bells_zpsbdc707b0.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Dynamo/dynamo_bells_zpsbdc707b0.jpg.html)

This one shows the gap. The armature's length prevents the bells from getting any closer to each other (i.e the frame).
While it may appear that the gap is bigger at the top than at the bottom this is simply because of the tilt because the bell won't seat.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Dynamo/dynamo_gap_zpsb1b9501d.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Dynamo/dynamo_gap_zpsb1b9501d.jpg.html)

I'll be surprised if casserole can be made.

I didn't show the armature. Other than machining either the bushing at one end or the commutator at the other...nothing can be done. I would not be comfortable modifying it.
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: doubletop on February 13, 2014, 08:23:39 PM
Hi Carl we've not been in touch for a while.

If its just about the length of the armature I'd just put the bells back in the lathe and with suitable size end mill take a light cut off the inside of the bell where the bearing is. You are only talking a few thou at each end

Suitable size? as small as possible to get the clearance you need. The diameter commutator would be the the largest.

A 5min job

Pete
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on February 13, 2014, 09:33:34 PM
How does the armature fit or sit in the bearing on the right side in the photo. If it's not a  " thru" bearing on that end, could you just not face off the end of the armature, the working part of it would still be where it needs to.

Whiskey

Wait a minute Bullwinkle, give me a close up of that right side in the photo, bearing, from the outside.

Whiskey
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 13, 2014, 10:02:06 PM
Why hi there Pete. It has indeed been a long time. Have you been active on the forum and I've just been bad about finding you?

Great idea. I'll take a run at that before springing for new parts.

Eric...both bearings are thru. But I think Pete may have come up with a recipe for casserole.

Thanks all!
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 13, 2014, 10:43:55 PM
That did the trick Pete. Thanks again.

So Marv will have to wait a little longer. We'll see who says 'crap'.

Probably done for the day. After 5+ hours working in the snow, I'm beat. We're supposed to get more tonight.

And yes...the armature turns. Fairly easy with a tap wrench. Not so easy with oily fingers.
Still have to try the magnets and see if the armature is centered.
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: Don1966 on February 14, 2014, 12:20:30 AM
 :ThumbsUp:

 :zap:

Don
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: b.lindsey on February 14, 2014, 12:27:42 AM
I think you can put together a successful casserole there Zee. Its been so long since I did mine I can't offer any suggestions but it certainly looks fixable. Worst case, get two new bells from PRM and try again. Keep after it.

Bill
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 14, 2014, 01:13:47 AM
Thanks Don and Bill.

I either go to bed and not sleep thinking about this...or I stay up not sleeping and do some more...
I opted for the latter.

Made the spacer for the magnets. Simple disk with a 3-48 through.
Then a dummy eye-bolt.
Spot faced and drilled the frame.
Put it together.

Video...

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/th_MVI_5658_zps96eb4145.jpg) (http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/MVI_5658_zps96eb4145.mp4)

Not sure if the video will work. I'm having issues with this computer. Internet is molasses.
Tried the Mac but for whatever reason all plug-ins are disabled and is preventing the videos from showing.
Haven't figured my way out of that one yet.

No binding. Seems to be just fine.

Guess I'm lucky.  ;D

Now I can sleep.
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: b.lindsey on February 14, 2014, 01:52:57 AM
Looks like you got it licked Carl. I am curious as to how you separated the magnets though. I was thinking there were some leaf springs that kept the magnets apart at the top and bottom, but I can't look at mine at the moment and my memory may not be that clear. I think I got this kit when they first came out which was a while back.

Bill
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 14, 2014, 03:42:04 AM
Hi Bill,

The top separation is done by an aluminum disk. Threaded thru 3-48 that the eye-bolt connects to.
And yes, you are right, the bottom separation is done by a little leaf spring.
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: doubletop on February 14, 2014, 05:02:13 AM
Zee

I think my last postings here was my loco refurbishment  I've made a couple of 4 stroke engines since but didn't do much of a build log as they were from the UK model engineer magazine and the articles were way better than I could have supplied. I did a few mods to the design that I posted on the ME website. Which of course meant you guys in the USA missed out I'm afraid.

Back to your generator: is it supposed to be that tight, or is something fouling? How does the armature spin in the housing without the magnets installed? If it isn't free you could try fitting the end bells in different orientations until you found one that was best. And then mark it!. If that doesn't work fit the end bells with no armature and if you've got a long enough reamer ream the  bearings through end to end. And again mark the position of the end bells!!

Pete
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 14, 2014, 10:34:00 AM
Glad to hear you've been busy Pete. Any thoughts for a build log here? And don't worry about articles. No doubt you would be able to add tips-n-techniques to them.

I don't think anything is fouling. The shaft turns smoothly with no indication of a bind spot.
However, I have no idea how easy it should turn. And one bell is certainly a tad tight even when I turn it on the shaft without the frame. A little more reaming may be in order. I suppose it's possible the bushings are not quite true but I can't tell much difference whether in the frame or just spinning the bells on the armature without the frame.

I don't know much about bushings. Is a light oil called for?

So that's the question for those of you who have built these. If I give the tap wrench a flip...how much should it turn?
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: Ian S C on February 14, 2014, 12:19:31 PM
You said earler that one bearing bush was a bit tight in its hole,  what type of bush are they, Oilite, these are manufactured to finished size, and require an accurate size hole to close the bush to its correct size, it must not be reamed, as this spoils the self lubricating  function of the sintered bronze.  If they are brass or bronze plain bearings, make a tool makers reamer from a bit of steel the same diameter as the shaft, and long enough to go through both bearings, sharpen it on a oil stone, but leave the very slight burr on the edge, going through the looser bearing it may not remove any metal, and just a whisker from the tight one.  You should not need to harden the reamer, unless you have cast iron bushes.  Plain bearings, use a light oil/sewing machine.  Oilite bushes come(usually) pre oiled, but you can charge them with oil, hold it with the hole vertical, put your finger under it, fill with oil, put your thumb on top and squeeze, on your dynamo it can be done in situ.  Ian S C
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: Alan Haisley on February 14, 2014, 03:36:43 PM
If I give the tap wrench a flip...how much should it turn?

Without the magnets in place it should free-wheel "a bunch". Meaning that if you only get a revolution or two something is too tight but if you get five or six (or eight or ten) it should be really good. The more it is willing to free-wheel, the better so long as there is no shake or rattle along with the roll.

Alan
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 14, 2014, 07:41:23 PM
Ian...
Not sure what kind of bearing. The BOM simply says bearing. I don't think brass. Bronze perhaps...but I don't have enough experience with any bearings to know the difference yet.

You mention 'accurate holes to close the bush to correct size'. The only way I can see the bush coming to size is if it simply crushes. Given this is an inexpensive kit...I suspect it's not Olite.

Alan...
Pretty much got the same without the magnets. Took it apart and the bell seems to spin pretty freely. So it seems somethings is not true.

Per Pete's suggestion I tried different bell positions. There was a noticeable improvement when turned 180 degree. With that I also applied a tad of light oil. More improvement.

Still though, it spins just a few revs easily. Maybe 4 or 5.

I'm thinking good enough but I'm wondering if the problem is the other bushing. One thing I noticed is some aluminum 'flash' along part of the perimeter of the bushing. I'm wondering if it really pressed straight and true. No arbor and the drill press table tilted some as I pushed.

In any case...

I need not give a direct invitation to Marv. He knows I am always ready for education whether pre- or post- boo-boo.  ;D

Thanks for everyone's help and input. I have gained from it.
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 15, 2014, 12:31:09 PM
If the bore of the frame is not true then wouldn't one bell's center sit off from the other?
The center of the armature at one end would differ from the other, no?
I wouldn't be surprised. I've always had problems with that.
I have some ideas to prove that out. All may not be lost.
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: Ian S C on February 15, 2014, 01:01:57 PM
Zee, the Oilite bushes are quite cheap, mainly I suppose because of bulk manufacture, they are preformed, and just need insertion into a hole that will close them to there designed size.  You can identify them by the oily feeling of them, the metal is porous, and retains the oil within it.  Most small electric motors have these bearings, some times they are spherical, and self allining, often with a felt pad with extra oil.     Ian S C
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 15, 2014, 01:45:14 PM
Thanks Ian.

I took it apart and inserted a punch to see if I could discern anything.
Seemed okay but granted...using a punch probably wouldn't help.
Then I started putting it back together.
One bell bolted on.
I held the other bell by hand...things spun freely.
One bolt on. Freely turns.
Second bolt on. Freely turns.
Third bolt on. Aha.
I suspect I may have bent the thing ever so slightly (but enough) when I pressed the bushing.

Overall then I'm pleased. It's good enough to work and I learned  few things.

Marv...you needn't keep your mouth zipped.  ;D Let it out.
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: doubletop on February 15, 2014, 09:28:48 PM
Zee

You are describing a barely perceptible miss-alignment between the bearings which could have occurred when you pressed them in. Something that you probably could do nothing about at the time.

As I suggested; bolt the bells to the main frame in the best orientation you've found. Mark the ends and orientation. Make the reamer Ian proposed and get the holes in alignment.

Reassemble and test. If its still doesn't spin reasonably freely do it again. 

I say reasonably, as it doesn't need to be loose, it will finally bed itself in once you get it running.

Job done.

Pete
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 15, 2014, 09:38:16 PM
Thanks Pete. And thanks for the kind comment.
Something that you probably could do nothing about at the time.

I think it's close. It may even improve (or not!) when I install all bolts. I had been using just two diagonally opposed. I'm going to leave as is for now.

I need to make some tooling to make the eye-let and binding posts.
That should be fun. It will add to Marv's frustrations about me...I'm not big on making cutters.  ;D
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: b.lindsey on February 15, 2014, 09:38:21 PM
Zee...just my opinion...but if you are getting 4-5 revolutions with the magnet in place I would leave it be and let it run in.  If you get it too free now with the plain bushings, they will begin to wear faster I think because of more movement of the armature. Even with perfect alignment you will see some wear over time...hence why some have replaced the bushings with small ball bearings. I would let it ride and then run it till it frees up more.

Bill
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 15, 2014, 09:43:01 PM
Zee...just my opinion...

Which I always take seriously. Thanks Bill.

You know...something that bugs me is that I ran into you at CF last year. Remember? I'd put Spinster near you.
I wish I'd spent more time there getting to know you and all the others. I feel like I hardly gave you guys the time of day. I hope to have more time to talk with you and all the other members this year.

But I must admit...I may be distracted. Eh Eric?  :naughty: And I ain't talkin' beans.
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: b.lindsey on February 15, 2014, 09:57:29 PM
Of course I remember and I hope we can all spend more time together this year. The Spinster looked even better in person too :)

Bill
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on February 15, 2014, 10:24:05 PM
Well, I know you've been waiting, so, here's my input. I agree with Bill. Bolt it all up and either run a battery or two dead in your cordless drill or use your lathe and let it run in. If it's spinning that freely, the run in should set it about right.  Distractions, well big boy you may be, but, I can tell you right now without owning a pair of bib overalls, or a pair of faded and starched Wranglers, or a pair of handmade Lucchese boots it's seriously doubtful she's gonna be :cheers: :lolb: :thewhip: :thewhip: :thewhip:. But hey, I'm bringing more beans :cheers:

Y'all come see us,
Whiskey
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 15, 2014, 10:34:02 PM
Distractions, well big boy you may be, but, I can tell you right now without owning a pair of bib overalls, or a pair of faded and starched Wranglers, or a pair of handmade Lucchese boots it's seriously doubtful she's gonna be

Well that was a mistake my friend. You've told me what I need to do.
Time to go shopping.
I won't worry about the boots though. If the eyes travel that far...then I've lost. You already know my best feature.  :lolb:
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: Ian S C on February 16, 2014, 12:43:54 PM
Here is a rough sketch of a tool makers reamer.  Cut the angle at about 20*, the exact angle is not that important.   Ian S C
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: steamer on February 16, 2014, 12:45:51 PM
Ian beat me to it! :ThumbsUp:

Those reamers work well.    bring the hole to about .005" undersize first with a boring bar so that the hole doesn't have any run out.

Dave
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 16, 2014, 12:48:33 PM
Thanks Ian.
I could make that with drill (silver) rod then harden it right?

Thanks Dave.
Er...what hole are we talking about?
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: steamer on February 16, 2014, 12:58:01 PM
What ever hole you use that type of reamer on.


And yes, you can make one with drill rod and harden it,   Then stone it nice and sharp.   They work very well.

Dave
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 16, 2014, 01:29:15 PM
What ever hole you use that type of reamer on.

Of course.  :slap:
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: Doc on February 16, 2014, 02:46:28 PM
I have made a few of these reamers and if you keep a nice edge on the angle and take it slow and easy they work pretty nice for line reaming. If you use some drill rod just make sure it is nice and straight and now taper in it. I usually make them from pre-hardened drill blanks and have used some dowels even though they are only case hardened they will work ok.
 Thats is a nice looking little gem your building I really need to get serious and build one too! 
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: Ian S C on February 17, 2014, 01:10:52 PM
For the bearings of a little generator/motor, the same steel as the shaft, unhardened would do, it only has to take off .001" or .002", and probably only off one bush, job done. But it would be worth hardening and tempering the reamer, and put it away carefully, and in years to come you can make another one "cause you can't remember where you put the first one,  it will turn up just after you finish with the new one :ROFL:  Ian S C
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: Rustkolector on February 18, 2014, 05:21:07 AM
Zee,
Sounds like you are almost done. It won't spin freely with the magnets in place. With any oil on your fingers it will hardly turn. Oil up the bearings. Hook it up to set of of 4 AA batteries in series (6v Radio Shack battery case). If it starts and runs quietly, the bearings will settle in. Paint it and get it belted up to something.

Depending on what you have in mind for your new generator, you might want to add an external switch mode voltage regulator to provide a constant voltage output. Every slow speed engine has some running irregularity and the generator output mirrors that irregularity. It is especially evident in light bulbs as light flicker. Here is a video of one of my engines driving a PMR generator with a regulator. You can hear the generator irregularity, but the voltage output is constant. PM me if you want any information on regulators.

Have fun with your new generator.

Jeff

K9V7mye21aI
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 18, 2014, 07:39:21 AM
Thanks Doc and Ian.

Jeff that's a beautiful engine. Thanks for posting it.
I'm very familiar with voltage regulators. I'm not sure at this point if I'll take it that far. My main purpose was to do some machining, any machining, after a long long dry period.

I did take another look at spot facing the mounting holes for the base. I don't know what I was thinking earlier but it seems I have everything I need to do it.

One (or two) question I had...Should I have painted first? Doesn't seem right. How to keep the paint off the spot faced areas?
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: steamer on February 18, 2014, 10:24:26 AM
For the bearings of a little generator/motor, the same steel as the shaft, unhardened would do, it only has to take off .001" or .002", and probably only off one bush, job done. But it would be worth hardening and tempering the reamer, and put it away carefully, and in years to come you can make another one "cause you can't remember where you put the first one,  it will turn up just after you finish with the new one :ROFL:  Ian S C

Or you do find it and you stand there wondering....what the hell did I make this for?.... :headscratch:

 :lolb:
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: Ian S C on February 18, 2014, 12:23:18 PM
Jeff, you'r right about varying voltages, and the speed of motors.  when I built my second Stirling Engine, I decided to run it for a long time, ended up at 2000 hours until an over haul was needed.  At the beginning, with the generator I used through out the test I was lucky to get 1.5volts to start with, a couple of days later,  it blew the 3V bulb I was using, put in 6V bulb, and a week later it was gone, its been running 12v automotive instrument panel bulbs since then.  I know I should have a voltage regulator, but I always try to squeeze as much out of my set up as I can, and where there is a circuit in place there is a voltage drop(how ever small).      Ian S C
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: mklotz on February 18, 2014, 05:02:47 PM
The object here isn't to provide dead flat DC to a Wheatstone bridge.  An open frame generator with a solid state regulator is a real technology clash.  Next thing you know you'll want to use LEDs.

No, instead you want a filament bulb flickering in synchrony with the engine to prove that it's really generating electricity and there aren't any batteries hidden in the base.
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 18, 2014, 10:49:36 PM
An open frame generator with a solid state regulator is a real technology clash.

Oops

Next thing you know you'll want to use LEDs.

Oops again.

Actually haven't decided to do anything. But if I do...yeah, probably a voltage regulator and an LED.  ;D
Was that a decision?  :thinking:
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: Don1966 on February 18, 2014, 11:58:36 PM
Carl on my setup I didn't use a voltage regulator but I did use a jumbo Led because it looks more like a lamp bulb. I put the ballast resistor under the base in the wire tray. I select the resistor after finding out how much the generator would produced then calculated the resistor value to keep it bright.
http://s1247.photobucket.com/user/don1966/media/PROJECTS%20BUILT/MARINEENGINE_zps9336274e.mp4.html?sort=6&o=53


Don
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on February 19, 2014, 12:15:29 AM
Hold on Don. If Zee hasn't and publicly stated he hasn't decided on something, well, let's just say, this may take awhile. Just remember which "save our world" law went into effect concerning light bulbs. And by the way, you can call it bubble, it's still big. Streisand once said; " I'm a curvy gal, it starts at my nose" :lolb:

Whiskey
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 19, 2014, 01:42:55 AM
I remember seeing that Don. It may have been what got me wanting to build the generator in the first place.
We use a number of LEDs at work...blue, green, red and several infra-red (useless for this purpose). Used to scan banknotes for recognition. I haven't done much hardware for a number of years. But I remember (at least with the old LEDs) using a 330 or 180 ohm in a 5V circuit. Doesn't really matter. My main desire is that the light turns on and off...not brighten or dim. So a switch is probably in order.

And by the way, you can call it bubble, it's still big. Streisand once said; " I'm a curvy gal, it starts at my nose"

Well...you have seen it (zee bubble) so you're entitled to your opinion. But if I get a grope at CF...I will have to assume it's you since you've expressed so much interest.  ;D

As for Streisand...love her...always have. I remember a thread or two on the old forum that discussed this. Surprising to me the "love her / hate her" dichotomy. I did not get involved in that thread. Just didn't seem right.  ;D
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: Ian S C on February 19, 2014, 11:48:55 AM
Another thing I use as an electrical load is a beat up old transistor radio.   Ian S C
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: PStechPaul on February 22, 2014, 03:38:14 AM
Interesting little dynamo project. I've always been fascinated with motors and generators. The one you have looks something like the little motors in my HO trains. I know how difficult it can be to get straight bushings to line up for smooth rotation. For the small switched reluctance motor I'm building, I am using some little 5mm ball bearings I popped out of some old plastic gears that I had used for my first attempt at a SRM, which also can function as a generator by adding magnets to the rotor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6LwlhsnT-k
 
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: Alan Haisley on February 22, 2014, 03:57:12 AM
An open frame generator with a solid state regulator is a real technology clash.

Oops

Next thing you know you'll want to use LEDs.
Oops again.

Actually haven't decided to do anything. But if I do...yeah, probably a voltage regulator and an LED.  ;D
Was that a decision?  :thinking:


Perhaps a miniature "Jacob's Ladder"  :zap:
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 22, 2014, 10:54:11 PM
Pretty cool video PStechPaul.
No hope if it doesn't work Alan.  ;D

Speaking of which. I manage a little play today. But I've got problems.
I made the binding posts. Took a shot at free-handing them. Turned out well enough I guess.
Naturally, you don't see the 1st one I made. Somehow got the tailstock off center so the through hole was way off.

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/Dynamo/dynamoposts_zps92c06532.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/Dynamo/dynamoposts_zps92c06532.jpg.html)

As you can see, things are not true. The posts are at an angle. I know the holes are located correctly. The problem is the casting on the inside of the bell. Not enough room for the bolts and brushes. I need to mill a bit out. Should be okay after that.

I'm just happy that I turned on my machines today and got my handsome fingers dirtied.

BTW You can see what I was talking about the other day (week? month?) about the bushing. See that bit of aluminum around it? Scraped out by the bushing when I pressed it.

I had drilled/reamed the hole 1mm undersize. Too much for a press fit? Should it have been .5mm? It was pretty difficult to press...but then I was using an old cheapie drill press.

That's the second time I've needed to press something. I should look into getting a real press. (Arbor press?)
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: mklotz on February 22, 2014, 11:06:18 PM
Quote
I had drilled/reamed the hole 1mm undersize. Too much for a press fit? Should it have been .5mm?

You might want to have a look at my FITS program.
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: fcheslop on February 22, 2014, 11:30:57 PM
For small bushes I simply use a nut and bolt to pull them in.
cheers
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: Dave Otto on February 23, 2014, 01:09:41 AM
Hi Carl

On something that small a couple three tenths is plenty for a press fit; one MM (.0394") are you sure. I don't know how you even got it started let alone pressed in with out breaking something.

Dave
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 23, 2014, 02:16:51 AM
Hi Carl

On something that small a couple three tenths is plenty for a press fit; one MM (.0394") are you sure. I don't know how you even got it started let alone pressed in with out breaking something.

Dave

Would my arm count?

I said 1mm didn't I? What an idiot. I'm starting to get mixed up going back and forth.
Reminds me of when I was taking my German finals in school. I got to the point I was translating my electronics finals to German and then back to English before I answered them.

Sorry. I meant .001". One THOU...not one MM. Given that...my question still stands. (Which may have been answered by Marv. I need to check his FITS program.)

Certainly...machining is not that much different from programming. It just takes one bit to be wrong.
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 23, 2014, 04:37:47 PM
 :zap:

Binding posts are shorted to the frame.
Not obvious. Brushes look fine. Got the insulators in.

Will have to take apart and do some further checking.

But not today.
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: vcutajar on February 23, 2014, 04:40:16 PM
Following quietly your trials and tribulations.  Keep it up.

Vince
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 02, 2014, 10:57:41 PM
Thanks Vince.

Well a quick check shows the short to be between the binding post and the bell. The insulators are a tad short and the bolt that goes through to hold the binding post is touching the bell. Or rather, it's not the insulator being too short as the bell is too thick. I don't see anything in the drawing that indicates what it should be.

It's not a simple matter of thinning the bell. Can't shorten the bushing anymore or the armature has too much play...worse, the commutators get to close to the bell.

Maybe I'll get hold of some plastic and make new insulators. Hm...another approach is to use a bit of heat shrink tubing. I have some of that.

In any case...problem seen. More than one solution possible. Not a bad scenario.

A lot easier to deal with than when T asks if I liked dinner.
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 02, 2014, 11:23:47 PM
Hm. Even easier may be to mill the bell from the binding post side. I've already mucked that up anyway.
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on March 02, 2014, 11:31:25 PM
Camera broke? :stir: :lolb:

Me
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 03, 2014, 12:32:30 AM
Camera broke? :stir: :lolb:

 :rant:

Here's a little something that gets my toes tapping...

FpaL-NVC-dgfeature=player_detailpage

Unfortunately, at about 3:08 is a sad picture.

And then there's the line...

"Ain't no use in crying over what you had."

There's a part of the Ozarks I really miss.
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 03, 2014, 12:37:24 AM
And probably my all time favorite toe-tapping...

FFxRqE3eB8Efeature=player_detailpage
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 03, 2014, 12:42:39 AM
Last one...I could keep going...

Listened to this back when I was looking for a girl...but she found me.

UcL1-Yj0NXkfeature=player_detailpage

Yeah. I've had a stinking hoppie or two. Waiting for the storm.  ;D
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 03, 2014, 11:28:29 PM
Apparently no one likes my music. That's okay.  ;D

I got the short (that one) taken care of. I took the heat shrink tube route. Just cut an itty bit off, threaded it onto the bolt and done. I did mill away a bit more from the sides so the bolts would be a bit straighter. Looks much better now.

Then I hooked it up to a scope and gave it a flick. Hm. A bit troubling no?

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/scope1_zpse8aab472.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/scope1_zpse8aab472.jpg.html)
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: Don1966 on March 04, 2014, 12:09:53 AM
Apparently no one likes my music. That's okay.

Then I hooked it up to a scope and gave it a flick. Hm. A bit troubling no?

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/zeeprogrammer/scope1_zpse8aab472.jpg) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/zeeprogrammer/media/scope1_zpse8aab472.jpg.html)
Carl I like your music, but looking at your scope you only had 34MV output. You must of done a small flick. But the spikes are from the commutator bars. Remember your producing DC here so as it passes a bar you will get a spike in voltage. If you had a lot of bars it would be less noticeable. Nice job by the way I like....... :praise2:


Don
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 04, 2014, 12:23:40 AM
Carl I like your music, but looking at your scope you only had 34MV output. You must of done a small flick. But the spikes are from the commutator bars. Remember your producing DC here so as it passes a bar you will get a spike in voltage. If you had a lot of bars it would be less noticeable. Nice job by the way I like.......

Thanks Don. Especially for the music comment.  ;D

Yeah...I'm not much of a flicker I guess. I'm either on or off.  :lolb:
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: b.lindsey on March 04, 2014, 12:42:00 AM
Glad you got it sorted out Zee. It sure looks good. Nice scope you have there too!!

Bill
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 04, 2014, 02:00:44 AM
Thanks Bill. I just got the scope. I use scopes at work quite a bit but I'm not familiar with this brand.
I've wanted a scope for home for a long long time but I wouldn't use one enough to warrant the cost of a brand I'm familiar with. This was a decent price so we'll see how it works out. It was an Amazon buy.
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: Doc on March 04, 2014, 03:03:40 AM
Carl I won one in a 5S sale our company use to sell it's unused equipment but now have stopped doing. Got it for $2.00 don't know a thing about them I plugged it in and the screen lights up and seems to be working but like I said I have no clue. If the dam thing wasn't so heavy I'd send it to you. :naughty:
(http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/doc0455/MY%20mACHINES/osil.jpg)
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: Don1966 on March 04, 2014, 03:44:08 AM
Doc that Logic analyser was a expense piece of test equipment and you got it for $2.00. You might try putting it on EBay.

Don
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: doubletop on March 04, 2014, 08:27:09 AM
A good buy for $2

http://www.testequipmentconnection.com/3944/Tektronix_1241.php (http://www.testequipmentconnection.com/3944/Tektronix_1241.php)

The manual here

http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/tektronix/logicAnal/090-4340-01_1240oper_Nov86.pdf (http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/tektronix/logicAnal/090-4340-01_1240oper_Nov86.pdf)


Pete

Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 04, 2014, 11:32:23 AM
Gentlemen gentlemen...he offered to send it to me. Why are you suggesting he sell it?  :lolb:

When my company moved they sold off a bunch of their equipment through an auction for employees. Lots of scopes, meters, lab tables etc. Nice scopes too.

But I lost. Well...I did get some old meter. No probes, no manual. Good dust collector.
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on March 04, 2014, 11:50:56 AM
Zee, scopes are another thing I know nothing about, however, even I think you should be doing some horse trading with Doc. Shipping can't be that bad and he should be happy to triple his money :naughty:. The one your dynamo is hooked to looks likes it has a nice strong heartbeat, Lipitor? :lolb:

Whiskey
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 04, 2014, 12:17:42 PM
even I think you should be doing some horse trading with Doc.

If I took a picture of anything I have that's worthwhile to trade...you'd think I'd left the lens cap on.  ;D
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: Doc on March 04, 2014, 10:28:07 PM
Haha I don't do Ebay I buy but no selling and I really just would like get rid of the thing if I knew more about the thing( I don't know if it is fully functional or not) I'd offer it up but like I said the dam thing is heavy.

 I got it for $2.00 I use to bid a couple bucks on all the items nobody bid on thinking maybe I would find a use.

I got this for $2 also on the same sale.
(http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/doc0455/MY%20mACHINES/dcgeneator.jpg)
And this one.
(http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/doc0455/MY%20mACHINES/dcgeneator2.jpg)
I figured just the copper those 2 would be worth way more than 2 bucks but they both worked also so hate to just junk them one is a 90volt dc generator and the other is a 22volt

Then there was this control box I figured with all the switchs it should be worth 2 bucks.
(http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/doc0455/MY%20mACHINES/switch2.jpg)

(http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/doc0455/MY%20mACHINES/switch.jpg)

Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 04, 2014, 10:31:24 PM
I got it for $2.00 I use to bid a couple bucks on all the items nobody bid on thinking maybe I would find a use.

I like that approach. My wife seems to use a similar method but without the dollar limit.  :(
Title: Re: The dynamo and the tu-tu
Post by: PStechPaul on March 04, 2014, 11:54:34 PM
I could use the Nobatron 80-18 power supply. It's worth quite a lot, but shipping to MD might be expensive. PM me and maybe we can work out a deal. If you need other electronic parts and/or equipment, I have a lot of stuff. Send me a wish list and I'll see if I can fulfill it.  ;D