Model Engine Maker

Supporting => Vehicles & Models => Topic started by: Brian Rupnow on October 05, 2013, 05:50:44 PM

Title: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 05, 2013, 05:50:44 PM
I have finally decided what I will build next. I want something new and different to run with one on my many model engines. I haven't been able to find any full sized machinery to replicate, but I have become fascinated by "marble machines" on Youtube. There are some fascinating marble lifting devices shown there. Of course they are mostly made of wood, and perhaps just a little crude by machinists standards, but have some brilliant thought put into the mechanisms themselves. So---Since imitation is the greatest form of flattery, I have decided to try my hand at building a marble lifting automation machine in metal. Of course, one of the first things I have to do is to figure out just HOW some of these things actually work.--So--It begins with some "Crap-o-cad" sketches to first get a handle on the idea---
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow007/MARBLEMACHIESKETCH001_zpse9df6c7d.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow007/MARBLEMACHIESKETCH001_zpse9df6c7d.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 05, 2013, 05:55:25 PM
Having roughed out an idea, after watching a Youtube video twenty times to see what is actually happening, and making a preliminary sketch, I then move to Solidworks, where I can create it in 3D to some kind of "scale", and see how the parts would go together, and what sizes of material I would use to make the components.
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow007/ASSEMBLY-MARBLEMACHINE_zps8e0080b6.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow007/ASSEMBLY-MARBLEMACHINE_zps8e0080b6.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 05, 2013, 06:02:00 PM
Of course it helps a great deal to then be able to animate things and see if they are going to behave in the way that I anticipated. The dark blue "marble" is shown in all of the different motions---In reality it would enter from the top left hole, be transported down and around the sliding red block cavity, ad then be shoved up through a second hole in the overhead blue part and into a clear glass vertical tube and be accumulated there, prevented from falling back down the tube by the grey sliding component. At this stage of the game, I don't have to make the animation any clearer than it is.--This is not nearly so much about a flawless animation as it is about getting all of the motions clear in my head.
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow007/th_ASSEMBLY-MARBLEMACHINE-2_zps0cf4dc7d.jpg) (http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow007/ASSEMBLY-MARBLEMACHINE-2_zps0cf4dc7d.mp4)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 05, 2013, 06:04:06 PM
There!! I think I got it.--My goodness, there is an amazing amount of inter-related geometry to get everything doing what it's supposed to!!!
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow007/th_ASSEMBLY-MARBLEMACHINE-FINAL_zps792f3956.jpg) (http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow007/ASSEMBLY-MARBLEMACHINE-FINAL_zps792f3956.mp4)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Arbalest on October 06, 2013, 02:00:06 PM
Check out Matthias Wandel's site: http://woodgears.ca/

He's built exactly that in wood. Very simple mechanism but still strangely fascinating to watch!
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: steamer on October 06, 2013, 03:13:18 PM
That's pretty cool Brian!

Dave
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 06, 2013, 03:36:39 PM
The next step is to convert everything into plate and angle sizes that are readily available and add appropriate threaded holes and counterbores. There is still a bit more work before I am ready to pull detail drawings from it. That crank with the green handle, is going to become a 1/2" shaft supported in  some form of bearing with a 5" diameter pulley on it, that can be driven by an o-ring drive belt from one of my engines.
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow007/ASSEMBLYOFBOTTOMSLIDER-FABRICATE_zps692ee95f.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow007/ASSEMBLYOFBOTTOMSLIDER-FABRICATE_zps692ee95f.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 06, 2013, 03:40:42 PM
Check out Matthias Wandel's site: http://woodgears.ca/

He's built exactly that in wood. Very simple mechanism but still strangely fascinating to watch!
Arbalest--As I said in my very first post, "Imitation is the greatest form of flattery!!" I'm not claiming to be the person who came up with the original idea.--Still and all, there is a world of difference between seeing something work and being able to duplicate it. --Brian
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 06, 2013, 04:42:12 PM
These devices are very interesting, as they harken to the mechanical automation of the first half of the twentieth century, prior to PLC's and electronic controls. I have worked on hundreds of automated machines as part of what I do professionally, but I've had very little to do with this type of automation. I would like to build this machine in "modules" that are essentially a stand alone piece of machinery that can operate totally on its own (driven by some form of engine of course), but can also be expanded into part of a greater complex of machines. The problem seems to be that you mustn't "paint yourself into a corner" drive-wise.  Whatever type of motive force operates the first machine must be of some type that can be "extended" to drive the other machines in the complex. Although it would be possible to use a "line shaft" to operate individual machines, this type of machinery generally didn't. Machine A fed power on to machine B which in turn fed power on to machine C and so on--. The other plus is that instead of having to build a very complex 500 hour machine, it can be built in much smaller segments as in blocks of "50 hour" machines that still can be operated on their own.
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 06, 2013, 06:43:48 PM
There--That's almost enough for one day.
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow007/ASSEMBLYOFBOTTOMSLIDER-ORTHO_zpscfea126e.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow007/ASSEMBLYOFBOTTOMSLIDER-ORTHO_zpscfea126e.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 06, 2013, 07:48:15 PM
I have an absolutely amazing collection of ,umm, errr, well I guess you'd call it junk!!! I always buy a bit more material than I need whenever I get involved in a project. After five years, and countless projects, its time to start cleaning out my stockpile. Its all short ends, offcuts, bits and pieces, but I just hate to throw any of it away. Perhaps this project will let me get rid of some stuff instead of adding to it.
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 06, 2013, 07:59:19 PM
All right!!--Hang on tight!!! Here we go---
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow007/PIVOTBASE-2_zps983d3b50.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow007/PIVOTBASE-2_zps983d3b50.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Arbalest on October 06, 2013, 08:02:15 PM
Looking good Brian. Here's a little un

qLiHa2u8Uw8
There are some really huge ones out there.
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: tel on October 06, 2013, 09:17:14 PM
Watching, as always, with interest Brian. One thing strikes me tho - won't the left hand hole (where the marble gets pushed up) need some sort of inverted ramp to prevent jamming?
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 06, 2013, 09:32:24 PM
Sometimes you eat the bear--Sometimes the bear eats you!!! I was feeling very proud of myself for just finishing the first two pieces of the marble machine. Then I noticed that the drawing called for 3/16" reamed holes and I had put in 1/4" reamed holes. Well POOP!! Nah, its okay--I'm the designer. I can get away with that. I'll just make the mating part 1/4" diameter.
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow007/PIVOTBASE-2002_zps3e773519.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow007/PIVOTBASE-2002_zps3e773519.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 06, 2013, 09:37:37 PM
Watching, as always, with interest Brian. One thing strikes me tho - won't the left hand hole (where the marble gets pushed up) need some sort of inverted ramp to prevent jamming?

Well--Its not supposed to. The trick seems to be that if you get the top part with the hole in it positioned properly, the 11/16" ball is pushed up into the hole by the red slider block, and then as the main slider block (grey color in post #3 animation)) is moved by the action of the rotating crank it slides to the left and blocks the ball from falling back down. I watched a Youtube video about 25 times trying to figure out what was happening there. The animation is a little funky--The blue "ball" doesn't transit from right to left at the top of the arc like the animation shows--it is forced up through the hole in the top blue part, and then can't fall back down. There will be a 3/4" i.d. clear rigid plastic tube standing vertically above the right hand hole to accumulate the balls in. They will eventually fill up the tube and start pouring out the top down a ramp.
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: tel on October 06, 2013, 09:40:55 PM
be interesting to see how that pans out. I just visualise the ball rising and jamming on the 'roof' before it gets to the hole.
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 06, 2013, 09:46:31 PM
We'll find out as I go along. 'Twouldn't be the first time I've got my balls jammed!!! :Lol: :Lol:
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: tel on October 06, 2013, 09:48:11 PM
 :lolb:
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 06, 2013, 11:37:45 PM
I think I'll go here next. I'm not sure about the snap ring groove size. I'll have to buy some snap rings and check it.
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow007/WELDMENTOFLINK_zps2a8d2a76.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow007/WELDMENTOFLINK_zps2a8d2a76.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Arbalest on October 07, 2013, 10:20:54 AM
be interesting to see how that pans out. I just visualise the ball rising and jamming on the 'roof' before it gets to the hole.

This any help Tel?

http://woodgears.ca/marbles/plans/video.html
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: tel on October 07, 2013, 11:09:35 AM
Yes Arb, it does - thankee!
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 07, 2013, 01:01:29 PM
Damn!!! I wish I'd seen that FIRST before I sat half a day figuring it out on my own!!! About the only trick I seen is drilling the holes in the top plate at an angle.--That's good to know.---Thanks Arbalest.
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Arbalest on October 07, 2013, 01:26:03 PM
No problem, glad it's of use. I still can't figure out why I find such a simple mechanism so fascinating though!  :Lol: I planned to make one myself out of some Beech but never got round to it. I also saved some Archimedes screws from some toner cartridges for use as a ball lifter as well but never got round to that either, one day...
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 08, 2013, 12:04:33 AM
Every day--a little bit. Not too much tonight. After 9 hours on the computer designing a new machine for a customer I don't have much energy left. I whittled out 2 links and found some 1/4" cold rolled. I'm too tired to start grinding a cutting tool for e-clip grooves, so I'll leave that for tomorrow night.
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow007/WELDMENTOFLINK-1002_zpsb6fe86a5.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow007/WELDMENTOFLINK-1002_zpsb6fe86a5.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: tel on October 08, 2013, 02:01:29 AM
Quote
I also saved some Archimedes screws from some toner cartridges for use as a ball lifter

 ;D I got a couple of those carefully tucked away as well!
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 08, 2013, 10:54:18 PM
I just checked the junk box, and I found a piece big enough to make this if I can plug a couple of holes. Don't know WHO the darn fool was that went and drilled holes in all my good scrap-----
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow007/PITCHERARMFORFABRICATION_zpsa9d9af75.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow007/PITCHERARMFORFABRICATION_zpsa9d9af75.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 09, 2013, 12:45:31 AM
Well, that's tonights bite of the elephant. I have a formula for fixing holes in the pieces I want to use. It goes like this--Turn plug .001 to .002 oversize from hole, coat plug with Red Loctite, get big "Turtle Killer" hammer, run out to anvil and --KERBLAM!!! Hole is gone!!! If you have good eyes you might be able to see the outline of the plugs. There are two of them.
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow007/pitcherarminmill001_zps04726880.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow007/pitcherarminmill001_zps04726880.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: jwcnc1911 on October 09, 2013, 04:27:09 AM
Diggin it Brian!  And your saying "that's my bite of the elephant" reminds me so much of a coworker.

He was told that vibration analysis is like eating an elephant... He told his manager the end he had to start on wasn't too good.

So, which end did you start on?
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 09, 2013, 12:34:08 PM
Something new like this doesn't have a bad end.---Brian
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Jo on October 09, 2013, 01:32:43 PM
An observation: This seems to be turning into more build log rather than meeting the intent of this area of the Forum which is to show items that engines can power.

Brian could you please look to keep this short. Thanks.

Jo
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 09, 2013, 04:14:43 PM
Jo--I intend this to be a build log. Have I started my thread in the wrong place, or is this type of build log not allowed on this forum?
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Jo on October 09, 2013, 04:48:03 PM
Brian this is a model engine building forum: our focus is on building model engines we welcome short posts about other associated things but our focus and the build threads are about building model engines.

If you want to run this as a build thread then there are other more appropriate Forums on which it should be posted.

Jo
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Arbalest on October 09, 2013, 06:01:34 PM
If you have to re-post on another forum Brian give us the heads up as I'd be keen to watch your progress!

Vic.
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 09, 2013, 06:27:07 PM
Okay Jo--I'm sorry, I didn't realize that this type of build wasn't welcome on this forum. I am double and triple posting on some of the other forums, so I shouldn't be too hard to find if anybody wants to see more of this build. I'll probably post a video of it being driven by one of my small engines when its finished.--Brian
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Jo on October 09, 2013, 06:58:50 PM
Brian please post a link for people to follow you on the other sites.

Jo
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on October 09, 2013, 07:40:31 PM
Well, I guess it's time for old Whiskey to shoot his mouth off. I see no reason Brian shouldn't be allowed to post this build here. Its an ancillary to be driven by a model engine. We just about ran poor Marinus off over locos. Whether it be a loco or traction engine, or stationary engine, if it turns into an eight year build I pray o the Maker I'm here to read it and learn. We should just be about the engine as the root and enjoy everything it's builder wraps around it as icing on the cake. I'm sorry, I love all the members here like family. But, this ain't what we're about. We should be all sh$t's and giggles to have a member as worthy as Brian. I don't know how many will back me, but, Brian I apologize.

Whiskey
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: sco on October 09, 2013, 09:27:52 PM
The clue is in the forum title.
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Arbalest on October 09, 2013, 10:31:38 PM
For what it's worth Whiskey I agree with you but I don't think Brian is too put out by it though.
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: steamer on October 10, 2013, 12:06:27 AM
OK guys....lets all relax a bit.

This is a model engine forum...this is true...but I've got my steamboat on this sub fora ...it's got an engine right?....one I built right?....to say nothing of everyone else's worthy contributions...I seem to remember a similar "odds and ends" forum at the last place, though I can't remember the fora subtitle at the moment...I seem to remember my boat was there too....seems I introduced myself with that subject.. .....It also seems we have lot's of intelligent, driven and productive members as well as newcomers to the hobby trying to figure a way to proceed based on the questions...and great answers!.....all looking for inspiration and some advice...and maybe even a shoulder to cry on when that perfect part gets scrapped on the last operation.....been there!....bet Brian has too...bet most of you have.

I see this sub forum as a kind of a catch all engine related mechanism thing...what we do when we're in the shop not building an engine...kinda like my boat....we put a lot of time into those things...they are noteworthy...and although they aren't "Engines" they can offer all kinds of insight and  inspiration!...perhaps even Motivation!....I would love it if a New guy said Wow!...if Brian can build that...I can make that wobbler cylinder!.....I hope I can hear things like that anyway.

Brian followed the rules specifically and has been most accommodating.   I say we let this thread continue as is.   I've been an engineer for 30 years and I haven't seen a crank shuttle singulator like that so I learned something from this thread already!   

What makes a forum great is the people in it.  The members and the Team facilitating.

We have great members!.....active and productive and civil, willing to learn and teach alike.   We could not ask for better!

That said

It ain't easy being a part of this Admin team.  It's a tough job!    Sometimes no matter what you do NO one is happy!   But...I've known these people a while now...some many years...they're good people..and all are my friends.    You can believe that.   

OK...off the soap box....I am done waxing poetic....ect ect.

It's a hobby, we're not making moonshine, over-investing our 401k's or eating too much ice cream .....know what I mean ?

Dave   aka  steamer
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Maryak on October 10, 2013, 12:16:22 AM
OK guys....lets all relax a bit.

This is a model engine forum...this is true...but I've got my steamboat on this sub fora ...it's got an engine right?....one I built right?....to say nothing of everyone else's worthy contributions...I seem to remember a similar "odds and ends" forum at the last place, though I can't remember the fora subtitle at the moment...I seem to remember my boat was there too....seems I introduced myself with that subject.. .....It also seems we have lot's of intelligent, driven and productive members as well as newcomers to the hobby trying to figure a way to proceed based on the questions...and great answers!.....all looking for inspiration and some advice...and maybe even a shoulder to cry on when that perfect part gets scrapped on the last operation.....been there!....bet Brian has too...bet most of you have.

I see this sub forum as a kind of a catch all engine related mechanism thing...what we do when we're in the shop not building an engine...kinda like my boat....we put a lot of time into those things...they are noteworthy...and although they aren't "Engines" they can offer all kinds of insight and  inspiration!...perhaps even Motivation!....I would love it if a New guy said Wow!...if Brian can build that...I can make that wobbler cylinder!.....I hope I can hear things like that anyway.

Brian followed the rules specifically and has been most accommodating.   I say we let this thread continue as is.   I've been an engineer for 30 years and I haven't seen a crank shuttle singulator like that so I learned something from this thread already!   

What makes a forum great is the people in it.  The members and the Team facilitating.

We have great members!.....active and productive and civil, willing to learn and teach alike.   We could not ask for better!

That said

It ain't easy being a part of this Admin team.  It's a tough job!    Sometimes no matter what you do NO one is happy!   But...I've known these people a while now...some many years...they're good people..and all are my friends.    You can believe that.   

OK...off the soap box....I am done waxing poetic....ect ect.

It's a hobby, we're not making moonshine, over-investing our 401k's or eating too much ice cream .....know what I mean ?

Dave   aka  steamer

YEP!!! except in my colonial ignorance, I thought making moonshine was a hobby.  :cheers:

Best Regards
Bob
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: steamer on October 10, 2013, 12:18:30 AM
.....YEP!!! except in my colonial ignorance, I thought making moonshine was a hobby.  :cheers:


Sure is if it's for medicinal purposes!....now the sale across state line...well that's another story....but wait....what was this thread all about again? :DrinkPint:

Dave
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 10, 2013, 08:14:32 PM
Let me get this straight. Since there is a sub section on the forum for "things that you run with your engine", how have I gone so wrong so quickly? Am I to understand that a picture or video of a finished "something" is acceptable, but not a build log? I consider it an honour and a privilege to be accepted for membership on this forum, and many people did seem interested in following the build. Please clarify this issue, Jo, so I don't do something wrong in the future.----Brian
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: AdeV on October 10, 2013, 10:59:49 PM
Let me get this straight. Since there is a sub section on the forum for "things that you run with your engine", how have I gone so wrong so quickly? Am I to understand that a picture or video of a finished "something" is acceptable, but not a build log? I consider it an honour and a privilege to be accepted for membership on this forum, and many people did seem interested in following the build. Please clarify this issue, Jo, so I don't do something wrong in the future.----Brian

Brian,

When the forum was founded, it's express purpose was engines (and to provide a home for those who couldn't stomach the change of ownership at HMEM).

The forum has tried, with varying degrees of success and action/inaction, tried to remain reasonably true to that vision, while allowing members to post some of their other non-engine interests/stuff if they think it will be of interest to other members. What we've tried to do is keep non-engine stuff to be less a build log & more a gallery type effort. The reason - there are loads of other machining/model engineering sites out there which would welcome loco builds (to pluck a randomish example), but not many where the focus is engines.

For the avoidance of any doubt, no-one has asked you to pull this thread, or to stop your marble lifting build; but, in the spirit of the forum, this isn't really an _engine_ thing.

Ironically, when you get to the part of the build when you're hooking it up to a model engine, will be truly the bit when this thread goes "on topic"....

In the meantime, no-one minds you updating on progress, but I for one would appreciate it if the "blow by blow" process were posted elsewhere, or perhaps built up into a PDF for posting when nearer complete?


Whatever you do, please don't take any of this as a personal attack. It was the subject matter that concerned me, nothing else. And yes, I'd love to see your marble lifter being run by a miniature IC engine.

Hope that clarifies & clears the air a little. Rest assured my intervention has caused a lively debate amongst the admins/mods.... we will try to come up with some clearer guidelines for everyone. Meanwhile, if you want to have your say about this post, or any other on this thread that's related to the subject, could I please ask that it occur in the Chatterbox forum & not this thread? Ta.
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Jasonb on October 11, 2013, 08:00:24 AM
Seems a strange desicion to me, While I don't peronally care for some of Brians subjects they are far more relative to the forum title than the large number of "builds" we have going in the tooling section such as VDH, UPT, Sensative drill, Hemmingway dividing, etc. But he does explain his methods well and at the end of the day the same method can be use if the part is in an engine or not

When the site was started I thought the intension not to have big projects was to keep things short, knowing the way Brian works this project will be finished in two weeks, compare that with how long the likes of My Easton & anderson or Jo's stationary engine threads go and Brian's really is a short thread.

J
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Arbalest on October 11, 2013, 09:58:21 AM
Brian's project continues here:

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/f31/marble-lifting-automation-21920/
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Admiral_dk on October 11, 2013, 07:09:52 PM
What a shame that it's gone from here ....

Yes I know it isn't an engine, but Brian normally shows how to in a nice way.
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 20, 2013, 09:32:11 PM
It seems that the rules have changed a bit, and I can now continue my Magnificent Marble Machine.
A rooty tooty toot and a riggy jiggy jig and the parts start piling up!! Now I have to figure out a way to hold a hacksaw blade in my axa tool holder to cut some e-clip grooves on the lathe---
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow007/PITCHINGARMDONE001_zps26f83989.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow007/PITCHINGARMDONE001_zps26f83989.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 20, 2013, 09:33:27 PM
Not one of my better digital photographs, but--That whole e-clip and welded link thing went very well. I had put a .030 x 45 degree bevel on the side of the link arms that was to receive the "weld"--actually silver solder, and a .040 x 45 degree chamfer on the head of the 1/4" round cold rolled. That way when everything is ground flush, I still have lots of silver solder in the joint.
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow007/WELDEDASSEMBLYOFLINKSFINISHED001_zpsf39dba0b.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow007/WELDEDASSEMBLYOFLINKSFINISHED001_zpsf39dba0b.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 20, 2013, 09:34:05 PM
Oh Yeah!!! I like this!!--Its starting to look like one of those old time killer catapults they used to knock down castle walls----
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow007/KILLERCATAPULT001_zpsf316ab5e.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow007/KILLERCATAPULT001_zpsf316ab5e.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 20, 2013, 09:35:14 PM
Ready---Aim----Holy Crow--I'd hate to be on the receiving end of that ball bearing!! Actually, the arm is just about at the elevation where the ball bearing topples out from gravity. Its plain that if I want the ball to stay in the pocket until the arm is vertical, I'm going to have to put a neodymium magnet in the bottom of the pocket.
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow007/PLATE-IDONE001_zps39be7e7a.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow007/PLATE-IDONE001_zps39be7e7a.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 20, 2013, 09:36:11 PM
Keep your heads down boys!! As soon as I get some dry powder for this thing--KABLOOOY!!! I got up early this morning and made the base before Momma got up. Now she's up, and I have to go get involved in the "Big house Slick up"--Kids and Grandkids and spouses and friends are coming for Thanksgiving tomorrow and Mommas back isn't real good, so I get the vacuuming duties.
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow007/MARBLEMACHINEBASEFINISHED001_zps41961201.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow007/MARBLEMACHINEBASEFINISHED001_zps41961201.jpg.html)
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow007/MARBLEMACHINEBASEFINISHED002_zps5be2ab18.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow007/MARBLEMACHINEBASEFINISHED002_zps5be2ab18.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 20, 2013, 09:37:00 PM
After my vacuuming duties, and my lawn cutting duties, I stole a couple more hours and machined the hold downs for the slider base. No excitement there, just milling and adding counter-bored holes. With all of the bolts tightened down, the slider still slides, so I must have got the clearances about where I wanted them to be. One thing I'm beginning to see is that I may need to put a gear drive on this thing rather than a simple o-ring drive. O-rings make great drive belts for this model engineering stuff, but they really won't transmit very much torque. They just slip. I think I'm going to change the pulley shown in the model for a spur gear about 4 1/2" in diameter and drive it with a 3/4" diameter pinion on a jackshaft. I will put the o-ring pulley on the jack shaft. I went around to all the motorcycle and ATV repair shops yesterday, trying to mooch any old spur gears, but no luck. I can cut my own spur gear, but I would rather have found a "ready made" set. I did get an electric motor armature with a 1/2" diameter helical end on it and a matching 1.5" diameter helical gear, but there isn't enough reduction in that, so I'll save it for a future project.
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow007/HOLDDOWNSFORSLIDER001_zpse7cfddd6.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow007/HOLDDOWNSFORSLIDER001_zpse7cfddd6.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 20, 2013, 09:37:33 PM
For what its worth--I sat pondering this mechanism today, and thinking that something wasn't quite right. I know it will work mechanically, that wasn't it. I went back to Youtube and watched a dozen similar marble lifting mechanisms. Then suddenly it hit me!!--Although my mechanism might work flawlessly, there was absolutely nothing to prevent the marble from falling out either side of the two pieces of angle that it sets between. I kicked this dog around for a while, not wanting to have to get into a major redesign. The solution I came up with was to reduce the center section of crankshaft from 1/2" diameter to 3/8" diameter, and put a couple of 1/16" "shields" on, one on each side of the angles, with 7/16" slots in them to let the crank slide in. The "marble" shown in red, can't get out through the 7/16" slot in the side shields (transparent yellow). I may have to slot the bottom of the shield to get it around the crankshaft, or I may just leave the bottom of the slope open--the marble never gets down to the bottom anyways.
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow007/ASSYOFMARBLEMACHINWEWITHSIDEGUARDS_zps55e8084a.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow007/ASSYOFMARBLEMACHINWEWITHSIDEGUARDS_zps55e8084a.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 20, 2013, 09:38:32 PM
Yes, I know. Its looking stranger and stranger---but so far its all good, haven't made anything backwards yet. I have the two angles that trap the bronze slider that makes everything go round and round, and the back bearing support, which also holds the overhead dark blue piece with the holes for the marbles in it.
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow007/ANGLESANDBRGSUPPORTS001_zps4fd7c2c8.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow007/ANGLESANDBRGSUPPORTS001_zps4fd7c2c8.jpg.html)
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow007/ANGLESANDBRGSUPPORTS002_zps086a6ec2.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow007/ANGLESANDBRGSUPPORTS002_zps086a6ec2.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 20, 2013, 09:39:06 PM
And that girls and boys, is the front bearing support. I didn't have a piece of 1/2" cold rolled shaft to stick in the bearing supports, so I stuck one of my "sharpie" pens in the bearings. When the real crankshaft (maybe I should call it an offset shaft) gets in there, it will have a 3/4" offset "throw" riding in a brass slider block between those angles. That's what will make things go back and forth.
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow007/FRONTBEARINGSUPPORT001_zps8c2ce7cc.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow007/FRONTBEARINGSUPPORT001_zps8c2ce7cc.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 20, 2013, 09:39:46 PM
This is going to require a fair bit of torque to drive it---thus the reduction gears shown.
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow007/MARBLEMACHINEWITHGEARSSHOWN_zpsd94be47a.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow007/MARBLEMACHINEWITHGEARSSHOWN_zpsd94be47a.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 20, 2013, 09:40:25 PM
Tonight I machined the brass slider block that fits on the "throw" of the crankshaft and rides between the two angles to make them slide back and forth as the crankshaft revolves. I used the old connecting rod trick, where-as I split the block of brass, bolted the two pieces back together, and then drilled and reamed on the split line. That lets me assemble it around the crankshaft. In the first picture the brass is upside down, so you can see the six #4-40 bolts which are countersunk in the one half and drilled and tapped in the other half. The second picture shows the piece of brass flipped over, so you can see the plain top that contacts the "marbles".
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow007/BRASSSLIDERBLOCK001_zps7d039ae1.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow007/BRASSSLIDERBLOCK001_zps7d039ae1.jpg.html)
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow007/BRASSSLIDERBLOCK002_zps95363bd2.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow007/BRASSSLIDERBLOCK002_zps95363bd2.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 20, 2013, 09:41:16 PM
 Tonights bite of the elephant was that vertical piece of 1" x 1/4" with the two holes at the top. The next step will be the 1" square horizontal piece with the holes in it for the marbles to enter and exit. (It shows up as transparent blue in the 3D model.) I really don't know what to expect with it, because in spite of the wonders of 3D cad, there are some things you just can't tell about until you make it and see. I hope it goes as well as all the rest of it has so far. I'm not going to invest any times making gears until I'm sure it is going to work.--Speaking of gears, in the background you can see the armature with the helical gear cut into the 1/2" diameter end and the 1.5" diameter helical gear it mates with. I scrounged the pair out of a scrap bin at the local "fix-it" shop. I haven't has time to see if the material is too hard to bore for a center hole or not.
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow007/VERTICALBRACE001_zps9f349678.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow007/VERTICALBRACE001_zps9f349678.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 20, 2013, 09:42:12 PM
We have good news to report on the marble moving front. The side shields do work to keep the marbles from falling out thru the sides, and with just the right combination of magnets glued into the back side of the pitching arm, the marble doesn't drop out before its supposed to. Nothing seems to jam or bind, and the speed you see things running at in this video is far more representative of the speed the machine will run at when powered by one of my i.c engines.
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow008/th_MARBLEVIDEO-2_zpse7727348.jpg) (http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow008/MARBLEVIDEO-2_zpse7727348.mp4)
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow008/MARBLEMACHINEMOVIE-2001_zpsb8c7a1f2.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow008/MARBLEMACHINEMOVIE-2001_zpsb8c7a1f2.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 20, 2013, 09:42:44 PM
Since I have been unable to find a satisfactory "ready made" gear to suit me, my next step may be to create the orange colored 108 tooth gear. The gear is a 24DP spur gear which I can make with the cutters I have. It is 4.5" pitch diameter, and with the rotary table and divider plates I have, it will require me to use 15 holes on an 18 tooth divider plate.--Yes, there is less than 3.33 degrees between the teeth and my rotary table is a 90:1 ratio.--That's going to make for a LOT of cranking. I like the look of the gear which I have modelled.--Rather than a solid plate hub, which is the easiest way to go, I think I will make the center section a built up weldment from steel and shrink the brass gear to the outside of it. Not because it will work any better, but because it will look better and presents a bit of a challenge.
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow007/MARBLEMACHINEWITHGEARSSHOWN_zpsd94be47a.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow007/MARBLEMACHINEWITHGEARSSHOWN_zpsd94be47a.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 20, 2013, 10:03:50 PM
It looks like there may be as much work in this gear as there was in the rest of the machine----
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow008/FABRICATEDPULLEY_zps47226227.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow008/FABRICATEDPULLEY_zps47226227.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 21, 2013, 11:30:19 PM
I may not do any machining tonight. I meant to go down to my steel supplier today and pick up some cold rolled to start the hub for my built up gear, but after working 9 hours on my current design contract, I don't have much energy left and the steel supplier is closed now anyways. That's okay. I just downloaded Stephen King's latest novel onto my e-reader. Maybe tonight I'll just set in my big chair and let old Steve horrify me!!
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 22, 2013, 06:46:03 PM
So---Here is the beginning to my 108 tooth gear. I only need a couple of inches of the 1 1/4" cold rolled but I bought a foot, because it will always get used. The 660 bronze which will become the actual gear was a "short" that was laying in the "shorts rack" and the steel pipe which will become the outer rim that the bronze gear attaches to is a piece of 4130 that just happened to be the right size.
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow008/108TOOTHGEAR-1001_zps67196847.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow008/108TOOTHGEAR-1001_zps67196847.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 22, 2013, 11:32:17 PM
This project is going to involve some rather "intense" machining (for me anyways). The diameters involved are right on the ragged edge of what my lathe chuck can open to and hold. This is the first step, boring and facing the 4130 steel "rim". I am using the "reverse jaws" in the chuck. When I locked the work up in the 3 jaw chuck, I used a 1/8" parallel between the back side of the work and each chuck jaw, so that I could run the boring bar in far enough for a complete "clean up" of the bore without my boring tool hitting the chuck jaws. The parallels were, of course, removed before I fired up the lathe. Now I have a "witness face" which is perfectly square to the bore.
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow008/108TOOTHGEAR-2001_zps1d37997b.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow008/108TOOTHGEAR-2001_zps1d37997b.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 23, 2013, 12:10:02 AM
Same-o  Same-o, only this time with the 660 bronze. The o.d of that bronze as it sets is 4.820". I have a note written on the wall over the lathe that says "Largest diameter I can hold with the reverse jaws is 5.25", so I am approaching the envelope. That's all the turning that I have to do until after the steel hub, rim, and spokes are welded together. Next thing I have to do is set up the rotary table to drill holes in the rim and hub every 60 degrees.
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow008/108TOOTHGEAR-3001_zpsfa6adbea.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow008/108TOOTHGEAR-3001_zpsfa6adbea.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 23, 2013, 12:21:39 AM
And this is where I will be going the next time I get a spurt of energy!!!
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow008/HUBFOR108TOOTHGEAR_zps613ae36a.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow008/HUBFOR108TOOTHGEAR_zps613ae36a.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Tinkerer58 on October 23, 2013, 09:52:45 AM
Welcome back Brian, good to see common sense has prevailed.
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 23, 2013, 12:40:15 PM
Thank You Tinkerer.---Brian
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: swilliams on October 23, 2013, 01:12:20 PM
Good to see normal transmission resuming Brian. Looks like solid progress and I'm curious to see how the whole thing comes together.

Steve
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 24, 2013, 01:50:15 AM
Tonight was rotary table night. I put a divider plate on so I could turn EXACTLY 60 degrees between each hole. First I drilled the 1 1/4" cold rolled that will become the hub for the gear. The 6 holes in it will be tapped. Then without moving my set-up I was able to mount the outer rim and drill 6 holes with a 3/16" diameter drill and then counterbore with a 3/8" endmill.  The plan is to thread the end of my six 3/16" diameter "spokes" on one end and put them thru the 3/16" holes in the outer rim, screw them into the hub, then cut them off flush with the rim outer diameter, assemble everything in a jig, and then mig weld the end of the spokes. That is what the 3/8" counterbore is for, to fill up with mig weld. Will it work?--I have no idea. After everything is welded in a jig, I will mount the 1 1/4" hub (which is left extra long at about 3") back into the lathe and turn the outer diameter of the rim to a proper fit to go into the inside the bronze that will have the gear teeth cut into it. I have drilled the holes 5/16" in from the face of the hub and the outer rim so I will be able to "clean up" the faces in my lathe.
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow008/108TOOTHGEARPREP001_zps1e127e68.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow008/108TOOTHGEARPREP001_zps1e127e68.jpg.html)
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow008/108TOOTHGEARPREP002_zps23a88fc5.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow008/108TOOTHGEARPREP002_zps23a88fc5.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 24, 2013, 11:05:44 PM
This is very interesting!!! I may go into business making ships wheels. And as far as the comment that was made by someone who said "That hub will be self centering."--Nah, not even close. I am going to have to set the hub up in the lathe chuck and using my dial indicator, chase the outer rim around by tapping it until its close to being concentric, before I make up a jig for welding.
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow008/SHIPSWHEEL002_zps43257f9a.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow008/SHIPSWHEEL002_zps43257f9a.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: wagnmkr on October 24, 2013, 11:32:58 PM
Brian, In my wood turning days I made several ships wheels for folks, and that is exactly how I did them.

For your jig, all you need is a piece of plywood or mdf in you lathe, make a tight fit groove for the outer ring and one for the hub. Make it only half the rim and hub depth for no spoke interference and then thread in your spokes and secure them however you want. I make my miniature wagon wheels this way too.

Cheers,

Tom
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 26, 2013, 12:17:16 AM
Whenever somebody hears "Build a Jig" they automatically think of something complex. It isn't always that way. My jig for welding the gear was made from a piece of 1/2" aluminum plate. A 1/2" hole was drilled on center, a 1 3/8" counterbore .150" deep. and the outer edge turned away to leave a "spigot" that was the exact size of the inner ring diameter x 0.150 deep. I took a piece of 1/2" cold rolled steel about 2" long, drilled and tapped a 1/4"-20 hole in the end of it, then inserted it in the 1/2" bore in the end of my "hub" and cross pinned it there with a 1/8" spring pin. I set it up so that about 5/16" of the 1/2" rod extended past the face of my hub. That allowed me to set the entire built up pulley in the jig, run a 1/4" bolt thru a washer and thru the jig plate from the back side, and tighten the hub in place against the face of the 1 3/8" counterbore. The  1 3/8" counterbore was clearance on the hub o.d. because the actual locating was done by the 1/2" cold rolled. Then an assortment of welding clamps and c-clamps were used to clamp the outer rim tight against the jig.
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow008/MOREGEARMAGIC005_zpse1436f78.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow008/MOREGEARMAGIC005_zpse1436f78.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 26, 2013, 12:18:33 AM
And this is how the welding went---In the second picture down, you can see the 1/8" spring pin which was holding the 1/2" diameter cold rolled in the hole in my hub.
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow008/MOREGEARMAGIC004_zps8276e43d.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow008/MOREGEARMAGIC004_zps8276e43d.jpg.html)
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow008/MOREGEARMAGIC003_zps63ba2eba.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow008/MOREGEARMAGIC003_zps63ba2eba.jpg.html)
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow008/MOREGEARMAGIC001_zpsd3027725.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow008/MOREGEARMAGIC001_zpsd3027725.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 26, 2013, 12:19:10 AM
The welds were ground flush with my big stationary belt sander, then the welded up construction was put back in my lathe, the o.d turned to the correct diameter, and the bronze rim pressed and loctited in place. Then a few more cuts on the outer diameter of the bronze brought it down to the correct o.d. for a 108 tooth gear, and a couple of facing cuts to blend the exposed face.
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow008/MOREGEARMAGIC007_zpsea301af0.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow008/MOREGEARMAGIC007_zpsea301af0.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 26, 2013, 12:19:52 AM
Of course, I still have the other side to contend with, and to do that I will put a longer piece of 1/2" cold rolled into the center of the hub, put the spring pin back in place, and then hold onto the 1/2" cold rolled to face the other side.
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: wagnmkr on October 26, 2013, 12:41:31 AM
Looking real good Brian.

Cheers,

Tom
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 26, 2013, 01:20:34 AM
The game plan has changed a little bit. I noticed when I was facing the 4130 outer rim and holding the hub in my 3 jaw chuck that I was getting some bad chatter. I think that may be related to the fact that the six 3/16" spokes have a certain amount of "springiness" to them. Now that I have a good face and shoulder on the built up part, I can put the reverse jaws in my chuck and hold onto the outside diameter to "face" the other side. Its late here now, and I won't do any actual machining until tomorrow, but this should give me a sturdier, less "springy" set up. I am leaving the hub as long as it is so I have something to hold onto with the chuck on my rotary table when I go to cut the gear teeth.
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow008/GAMEPLANCHANGED001_zpsc0280bf3.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow008/GAMEPLANCHANGED001_zpsc0280bf3.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 26, 2013, 01:18:18 PM
My clear lexan tube arrived this week, so now I have to machine a saddle for it to attach it to the top of the machine where the marbles are expelled. They will accumulate in the clear lexan tube before spilling out the top to cruise down a ramp.
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow008/MARBLEMACHINEWITHGLASSTUBE_zps804f119b.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow008/MARBLEMACHINEWITHGLASSTUBE_zps804f119b.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: steamer on October 26, 2013, 01:53:33 PM
It's certainly coming along Brian! :ThumbsUp:

Dave
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 26, 2013, 06:22:46 PM
I never had a single doubt
The marbles would go up the spout
I'm only half way done my friend--
I've yet to get them down again!!!
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow008/MARBLESUPTHESPOUT001_zps9923e9f1.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow008/MARBLESUPTHESPOUT001_zps9923e9f1.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: swilliams on October 27, 2013, 12:11:21 AM
I like it Brian

Steve
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 27, 2013, 03:45:21 PM
The fickle finger of fate was waiting for me this morning!! I didn't feel like any major machining, so I had a big shop clean-up and then decided to set-up for cutting my 108 tooth gear. My mill table lacks about 3/8" of travel to fit the set-up in. My next resort will be to move everything to the outermost T-slot in the mill table. This creates a bit of a problem, because the hole spacing on my rotary table is such that the bolt nearest to me will have to hang out in the air. I guess that's why I have hold down (toe) clamps. Now I will go try and move everything over and see what happens.
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow008/FICKLEFINGER001_zps662e1d1c.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow008/FICKLEFINGER001_zps662e1d1c.jpg.html)
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow008/FICKLEFINGER002_zps9349ce44.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow008/FICKLEFINGER002_zps9349ce44.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 27, 2013, 04:22:05 PM
I'm not sure if I'm being rewarded for living a good clean life, or being punished for things I have done in the past. I was able to move everything out to the outer T-slot, and it fits. I only have 1/16" clearance between the top of the bronze gear and the underside of my mills head, but a miss is as good as a mile!!! I had to modify the end of a toe clamp to get it in under the chuck and still clear everything, but its in there, and its tightened down. I still have one bolt thru the rotary table housing engaged with the center T-slot. I thin k I'm just about ready to start cutting teeth----All 108 of them!!!
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow008/CLOSESET-UP001_zps9d5a4aa1.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow008/CLOSESET-UP001_zps9d5a4aa1.jpg.html)
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow008/CLOSESET-UP002_zps8366d703.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow008/CLOSESET-UP002_zps8366d703.jpg.html)
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow008/CLOSESET-UP003_zpsc7278375.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow008/CLOSESET-UP003_zpsc7278375.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 27, 2013, 09:28:22 PM
Now that, my friends, is one HUGE gear. Huge by model makers standards at any rate. The outer diameter is 4.583", and its the biggest blank that will fit into my milling machine. 108 teeth, 4.5" pitch diameter. It didn't really take as long to cut as I thought it would---maybe about 1 hour total. When I got to the point where I fed it through the cutter and didn't hear anything actually cutting, I breathed a huge sigh of relief. I have this deep seated horror of getting all the way around on a gear and then starting to cut away the teeth that are already cut.--It happens!!!
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow008/108TOOTHGEARCUT001_zps07f4af76.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow008/108TOOTHGEARCUT001_zps07f4af76.jpg.html)
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow008/108TOOTHGEARCUT002_zps393e55d9.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow008/108TOOTHGEARCUT002_zps393e55d9.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: smfr on October 27, 2013, 09:43:13 PM
Nice job on the gear, Brian! Did you use dividing plates, or just angles on the rotary table? I don't see any dividing plates in the photos.

Simon
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: wagnmkr on October 27, 2013, 09:58:50 PM
Well Done Brian.

Tom
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 28, 2013, 12:20:07 AM
Simon--I did have divider plates on the input crank side of the rotary table. It required 15 holes on an 18 hole plate to give me the correct angle between all of the teeth. (3.3333 degrees) To do it by just reading the angle scale on the rotary table would never work on a gear with this many teeth. You would have far too much accumulated error by the time you got to the 108th tooth. In fact, gears are not all that forgiving of angular disparity, even on small gears with just a few teeth, I use the divider plates.
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 28, 2013, 11:27:34 PM
So what do you do for an encore, once you have made the largest gear you can make on your mill??---Well of course---Then you turn around and you make the smallest. Okay--Its not quite the smallest. The small one shown here is a 15 tooth. I can actually make one smaller, a 14 tooth. This one wasn't quite so heart stopping as the big one. None of that so many turns and so many holes stuff. It was just 6 full turns of the handle between each cut. I still use the divider plates though. I do want these gears to mesh when I get finished here!!! That small gear is integral with the shaft. The o.d. of the gear is 0.708", so I turned both ends of a 3/4" shaft down to .437 and turned the center to 0.708 and then cut the teeth right on the shaft. Strangely enough, the cold rolled steel cut easier than the bronze, but I didn't have any vibration to contend with like I did when I cut the big gear. The spokes made the cutting of the big gear very "springy" while I was cutting.
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow008/smallgear001_zpsc0785f00.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow008/smallgear001_zpsc0785f00.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: nevadablue on October 28, 2013, 11:56:39 PM
Truly amazing... a marble lifting engine.  :praise2:

Thanks for all the pics, just looking at the setups inspires...  :cheers:
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 29, 2013, 10:20:57 PM
Tonight we will make an attempt at the countershaft mount. (That's the yellow piece) behind the 15 tooth gear.
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow008/ASSEMBLYOFBOTTOMSLIDERWITHJACKSHAFTMOUNT_zpsb096da2b.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow008/ASSEMBLYOFBOTTOMSLIDERWITHJACKSHAFTMOUNT_zpsb096da2b.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Alan Haisley on October 29, 2013, 10:31:24 PM
Simon--I did have divider plates on the input crank side of the rotary table. It required 15 holes on an 18 hole plate to give me the correct angle between all of the teeth. (3.3333 degrees) To do it by just reading the angle scale on the rotary table would never work on a gear with this many teeth. You would have far too much accumulated error by the time you got to the 108th tooth. In fact, gears are not all that forgiving of angular disparity, even on small gears with just a few teeth, I use the divider plates.
In the Sherline instructions for their rotary table, Joe Martin says to make a list of all of the rotary offsets starting from zero rather than using an offset from tooth to tooth. That avoids the accumulated error problem.
Alan
 
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: mklotz on October 29, 2013, 10:49:54 PM
Simon--I did have divider plates on the input crank side of the rotary table. It required 15 holes on an 18 hole plate to give me the correct angle between all of the teeth. (3.3333 degrees) To do it by just reading the angle scale on the rotary table would never work on a gear with this many teeth. You would have far too much accumulated error by the time you got to the 108th tooth. In fact, gears are not all that forgiving of angular disparity, even on small gears with just a few teeth, I use the divider plates.
In the Sherline instructions for their rotary table, Joe Martin says to make a list of all of the rotary offsets starting from zero rather than using an offset from tooth to tooth. That avoids the accumulated error problem.
Alan

But Brian's method has no roundoff error associated with it.  360 divided by 108 is 10/3 deg per tooth exactly.  He has a 90:1 rotary table so each turn of the crank is 4 deg of table rotation.  10/3 divided by 4 is 10/12 = 5/6 of a turn per tooth.  15 holes on an 18 hole plate = 15/18 = 5/6 of a turn exactly.

Joe's method is correct for situations where the angular increment per tooth can't be expressed as a rational fraction though. 
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 29, 2013, 11:01:52 PM
Marv Klotz---I thought you had fallen right off the face of the earth!!! How nice to hear from you!!---Brian
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 30, 2013, 12:23:07 AM
I got this far and gave it up for the night. Bandsaw blade is dull as a hoe!!! I try to get a year out of the bi-metallic blades, but invariably I end up trying to cut something that's hard as the devils horn, and I don't know about it until I've knocked all the "sharp" off the teeth. ----And it generally happens about 2 weeks after I've bought the new blade. Blades aren't cheap!! I pay about $50 each at BusyBee, and that's imported stuff. Maybe this weekend I'll buy a blade.
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow008/DULLASAHOE001_zps8fd19812.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow008/DULLASAHOE001_zps8fd19812.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: gerritv on October 30, 2013, 02:16:13 AM
Brian, have you looked at KBC Tools for blades? http://www.kbctools.com/can/Navigation/NavPDF.cfm?PDFPage=232. They have a location in Mississauga

Gerrit
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 30, 2013, 11:29:27 PM
There isn't too much I can say about this shot. The gears mesh the way I had hoped they would, and My Goodness --There's a lot of work in that new piece which supports the shaft with the small gear on it!!!
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow008/BOTHGEARSINPLACE001_zps5f6f32c5.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow008/BOTHGEARSINPLACE001_zps5f6f32c5.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 30, 2013, 11:35:15 PM
I found out today that there is a place in Brampton, Ontario that will make up a bimetal blade to order, and they are actually cheaper than BusyBee. They explained to me that their bimetal blades are a 14-10 tooth combination, with one inch of blade cut with 10 teeth per inch and 1" of blade cut with 14 teeth per inch, alternating over the full length of the blade. They claim longer blade life and easier cutting. The 93" blade in bimetal at BusyBee is $55.00 plus 13% tax. The blade from Tuff-tooth costs $50.06 including tax and shipping. I'll give a report on whether or not the blade works well.
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Don1966 on October 30, 2013, 11:52:14 PM
Brian why not buy the carbide blades of coarse they are more expensive but cut and last a lot longer. They will cut through metal like cutting soap. http://www.rockler.com/laguna-tools-resaw-king-carbide-bandsaw-blade-3-4-inch-carbide-blade

Don
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 01, 2013, 12:42:50 AM
At $150 a pop, that's too rich for my blood. I'll pay $50 a year for 3 years. At least that way, if I wreck a blade, its only $50 to replace it.
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Don1966 on November 01, 2013, 01:38:53 AM
Yea I know it's a little steep, but the upside is it cuts and you can resharpen it five times. If it breaks I have a bandsaw splicing kit to repair it with. I had gone through quick a few blades that didn't cut very good before I got this one, no regrets buying it.

Don
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 01, 2013, 11:17:14 PM
My new blade came in today and I installed it on my bandsaw this evening. It is the same thickness (.036") as the blades from BusyBee and the same width, at 3/4". I cut a piece of 1" aluminum with it, and although its hard to be totally subjective about it, it seems to cut much faster than the old blade did.---of course like I said in my earlier post, the old blade was painfully dull. The price came in at a total of $51.65, which is $10.50 cheaper than BusyBee, delivered right to my mailbox. The name of the company in Brampton is R &D Bandsaws. The "Tufftooth" must be the name for their bimetal blades.
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 02, 2013, 03:30:39 PM
Now that my gear cutting is out of the way, it's time to put a pulley on that shaft that has the small gear carved on it. I am not sure of the torque requirements on this machine, so I have decided to use a flat belt drive on it, similar to the one on my sawmill. That way I don't have to be concerned with slippage like you get with an o-ring drive. Flat belts are a bear to wander off the pulley, so I will put a couple of 1/8" high flanges on the edges to keep the belt on. I went down to my metal supplier this morning and paid $10 for a 6" length of 5" x 1" aluminum, which will become the pulley over the next couple of weeks.
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow008/MARBLEMACHINEWITHPULLEY_zps2e90137c.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow008/MARBLEMACHINEWITHPULLEY_zps2e90137c.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Alan Haisley on November 02, 2013, 05:26:47 PM
My new blade came in today and I installed it on my bandsaw this evening. It is the same thickness (.036") as the blades from BusyBee and the same width, at 3/4". I cut a piece of 1" aluminum with it, and although its hard to be totally subjective about it, it seems to cut much faster than the old blade did.---of course like I said in my earlier post, the old blade was painfully dull. The price came in at a total of $51.65, which is $10.50 cheaper than BusyBee, delivered right to my mailbox. The name of the company in Brampton is R &D Bandsaws. The "Tufftooth" must be the name for their bimetal blades.
Brian,
Take a look at this:
http://woodgears.ca/bandsaw/sharpening.html (http://woodgears.ca/bandsaw/sharpening.html)
Granted, this guy works in wood, not metal, but at $50+ a pop, plus waiting for delivery, his method may let you get that one piece of metal cut that you just need right now.
Alan
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 02, 2013, 11:48:19 PM
Well, I made a start on the pulley today. Short form goes like this.--Buy flatbar--Lay out circle with old drafting compass--Cut off everything that isn't part of the circle with bandsaw--Clamp plate between live tailstock center and chuck jaws and knock off most of the remaining corners--clamp in 3 jaw chuck, and away we go!!! Every time I hollow out the face on a pulley like this I seem to do it a different way. Most reliable way it seems is to make a series of plunge cuts at 90 degrees to the face with an old cut-off tool that I have ground to a long tapering point, close to the center hub. After enough plunge cuts side by side, I take it to the finished depth and wide enough to get a boring tool into what has now become a circular slot, and then use the boring tool to make successive passes towards the outer rim. Probably there are better ways to do this, but it works for me. Tomorrow if I have any ambition I'll flip it around in the chuck and do the other side.
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow008/PULLEY-1001_zpsfcf1a347.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow008/PULLEY-1001_zpsfcf1a347.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 02, 2013, 11:52:36 PM
Good Lord Alan--Sharpen my own bandsaw blades?? I'd rather try home brain surgery. I can afford the $50 once a year.--Brian
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 03, 2013, 04:37:48 PM
As my friend Mr. Dundee  once said--"Now this is a pulley!!! I still have to put the six holes in it. They don't actually do anything, other than make it more visible that the pulley is really turning. These are not critical holes in any way, so I may just lay them out, pop an indent  with the center punch, and take them out to my big old drill press in the garage to drill.--Still, rather a pig of a thing to hold onto while drilling 1" diameter holes  thru the 1/4" web.
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow008/PULLEYONMACHINE001_zpscbda39e6.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow008/PULLEYONMACHINE001_zpscbda39e6.jpg.html)
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow008/PULLEYONMACHINE002_zps02d34748.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow008/PULLEYONMACHINE002_zps02d34748.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Alan Haisley on November 03, 2013, 05:10:18 PM
Brian,
Now that you have the pulley, how much (finger measured) torque is needed with the tube loaded? It looks like it will take nothing at all to turn it.
Alan
p.s. He was sharpening wood blades with a lot fewer TPI than we might use.
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 03, 2013, 07:09:51 PM
I don't know yet Alan--Not much though. I haven't got the pulley anchored to the shaft yet.
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: swilliams on November 03, 2013, 09:46:09 PM
It's coming together Brian. Looking good!

Steve
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 03, 2013, 11:24:50 PM
My holes are in, but Jeez, what a dance!! I ended up using toe clamps to clamp the pulley to the mill table, then for each hole it was--put the chuck in, with a homemade "pointer" and run the table around until the pointer was on center of my "punch" marks. Take the "pointer" out of the chuck and put a 3/8" drill in. Drill thru, remove the 3/8" drill and put in a half inch drill and drill thru. Remove chuck, put in 3/4" endmill and mill thru the web. Remove the 3/4" endmill and put a 7/8" endmill and mill thru the hub. Remove the 7/8" endmill and put a 1" endmill in and finally mill thru to end up with a 1" hole. Then repeat 5 times. My mill is not a tower of power!!! Anything much over 1/2" diameter and it blows the glass fuse. The glass fuses are $3 each and you can't buy them anywhere on Sunday. I do keep spares around, but try not to blow them if I can help it. Oh well, job is done, and the holes look good. Now I can move on to one of the more interesting parts.
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow009/PULLEYFINISHED002_zps6cd73b41.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow009/PULLEYFINISHED002_zps6cd73b41.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Tinkerer58 on November 05, 2013, 05:08:38 AM
when fuse blows put foil around it LOL NOT, but it has got me out of trouble at times. A definite NO NO but when push comes to shove you do what you have to do.

But honestly at $3.00 a pop (literally) I'd be doing a mod and fitting a circuit breaker, don't know where you buying your fuses but they only cost like $0.10 to make I think someone has you by the sort and curlies.
If you do need those fuses I'd be looking around for suppliers that supply components the the electronics or electrical industries.

I had similarly been ripped off for a drive belt for my previous small lathe at $60.00 for a 750mm 5 mm wide belt. I ended up getting a PK automotive belt with 6 ribs and cut them around the circumference and I got 5 belts for $12.00. They out lasted the original OE belt by 5 times. It pays to think outside the square at times.
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: swilliams on November 05, 2013, 05:39:37 AM
Might try looking for them at deal extreme. Just a thought

http://dx.com (http://dx.com)

Steve
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Tinkerer58 on November 05, 2013, 07:30:32 AM
Brian try Future Electronics if you need 3AG glass fuses minimum order for 75 pcs will cost you about $9.50, they are in Canada.
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: steamboatmodel on November 05, 2013, 02:08:39 PM
Brian,
If I had knowen you used glass fuses before I moved I could have given you a box of a couple of hundred of them. My new house has circuit breakers and I didn't need them. Have you looked at the screw in circuit breakers? I had a number of them in the fuse pannel at the old place on circuits that got overloaded frequently. I think you can get them at Can Tire.
Regards,
Gerald.
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 05, 2013, 02:28:53 PM
The fuses I am talking about look very similar to the old style automotive fuses. They are a glass cylinder about 3/16" diameter  x 3/4" long with steel ends on them, and are labelled as "fast acting 10 amp.--Well, they certainly got the "fast acting" part right!!!
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: steamboatmodel on November 05, 2013, 02:40:49 PM
Ok I know that style, the only ones I had of those were in the pannel.
Gerald.
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: dsquire on November 05, 2013, 02:53:26 PM
Brian,
If I had knowen you used glass fuses before I moved I could have given you a box of a couple of hundred of them. My new house has circuit breakers and I didn't need them. Have you looked at the screw in circuit breakers? I had a number of them in the fuse pannel at the old place on circuits that got overloaded frequently. I think you can get them at Can Tire.
Regards,
Gerald.

Gerald

I noticed this fuse and would like more information if possible. I searched Can Tire online and didn't find it. Could you read and write out or take a photo that I can enlarge and be able to read. Then I will have something better to search for.

I have a friend that lives in an old apartment and is constantly blowing fuses. Something like this would be the next best thing to having ciruuit breakers installed and save her a small fortune. Thanks. :)

Brian

Sorry to be off topic. This info might help both of us. :)

Cheers  :cheers:

Don
PS: I see you are talking about a different fuse now but I am still interested in this style Gerald. Don
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Alan Haisley on November 05, 2013, 03:14:35 PM
Brian,
Future Electronics lists glass fuses rated 110V by 10A for 28 cents each, minimum order of 30. The 250V by 10A items are 14 cents each, but you have to buy 1000 of them. You might try Fair Radio or Digikey down here in the states to see if other quantities are available - even Radio Shack might have what you use.
I'd call around and see if any of these have a fast thermal breaker of the voltage and amperage you need and then make a housing for it - unless the 110V fuses are what you need. You didn't indicate what the working voltage for your mill is.
Alan
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 05, 2013, 10:31:22 PM
I've been terribly busy with real work, so this machine has taken a back seat lately. The next thing I do is going to be interesting though. I have to have a "chute" filled with "marbles" so that when the pitching arm lowers to horizontal, a marble will load into it, under the influence of gravity. However, since there will be more than one "marble" in the chute, I have to have a spring operated "stop-gate" which prevents the other marbles from running out onto the floor when the pitching arm is up away from horizontal. I have some ideas how I will do this--the stop gate will be opened by the downward movement of the pitching arm, which is powered down as well as up.
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: tel on November 06, 2013, 09:17:56 AM
Ah! I've been meaning to ask you about that!
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Alan Haisley on November 06, 2013, 07:22:33 PM
I've been terribly busy with real work, so this machine has taken a back seat lately. The next thing I do is going to be interesting though. I have to have a "chute" filled with "marbles" so that when the pitching arm lowers to horizontal, a marble will load into it, under the influence of gravity. However, since there will be more than one "marble" in the chute, I have to have a spring operated "stop-gate" which prevents the other marbles from running out onto the floor when the pitching arm is up away from horizontal. I have some ideas how I will do this--the stop gate will be opened by the downward movement of the pitching arm, which is powered down as well as up.
Maybe a see-saw double gate to meter the marbles one at a time?
Alan
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: steamboatmodel on November 09, 2013, 08:32:18 PM
Sorry to go off topic, It must have been Homehardware I had got them at.
http://www.homehardware.ca/en/rec/index.htm/Plumbing-Electrical/Electrical/Fuses/Household/Plug/FUSE-MINI-BREAKER-15AMP/_/N-ntjyl/R-I3644505
Regards,
Gerald.
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 09, 2013, 09:13:00 PM
I have the metering of marbles figured out, and have been making many test runs, getting prepared to make a video of the action. I have to not only get it to run (that's the easy part) but to get it to run consistently. I have been powering things with a drive belt from a pulley in my milling machine spindle, where I can also control the speed.
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: dsquire on November 09, 2013, 11:08:12 PM
Sorry to go off topic, It must have been Homehardware I had got them at.
http://www.homehardware.ca/en/rec/index.htm/Plumbing-Electrical/Electrical/Fuses/Household/Plug/FUSE-MINI-BREAKER-15AMP/_/N-ntjyl/R-I3644505
Regards,
Gerald.

Gearald

Many thanks for the reply and information. Good old Home Hardware comes through again.  :cartwheel:


Brian

I'll try and not go off topic again.  :)

Cheers  :cheers:

Don
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 11, 2013, 07:16:38 PM
On Friday, I finished a fairly large design contract, (Large for an old semi-retired poop like me, anyways.). That gave me this past weekend to play with my marble machine. I have reached the conclusion that there is as much work, or possibly even more to a machine like this than there is to a model engine. The trick with these things isn't making them work. That's pretty straightforward. But making them work CONSISTENTLY---That's where the devil is hiding!!! At any rate, I have futzed away at this thing until I am ready to make a short video of the operation. I still have no firm ideas for the return part of the equation, but that will come with time. So---Here is a video of the state we are at currently.
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow009/th_MARBLEMACHINEDRIVENBYHAND_zpsf72c7153.jpg) (http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow009/MARBLEMACHINEDRIVENBYHAND_zpsf72c7153.mp4)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: steamer on November 11, 2013, 11:20:32 PM
That works great Brian!.....as far as a return mechanism...I was thinking about a bi-stable trigger at the top of the riser tube.  The last ball pushes the trigger over center and opens a side mounted trap door allowing the balls to roll back in a track to the starting track.   The reset would need to happen on the ram return stroke maybe with a cam that pulls the trigger back over center and closes the trap door.


Dave
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 12, 2013, 12:24:41 AM
Just do a search for "marble machine-youtube" and you will see more wild and crazy return mechanisms than one could ever think of. I haven't really delved into it too deeply, but there are a ton of real intriguing ways to get the balls from the tube back to the starting ramp.
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Don1966 on November 12, 2013, 02:04:20 AM
Nice work Brian, why not use a curved tube and let the balls roll back down by themselves or do you just want to add more mechanics to it?

Just my 2cents

Don
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Alan Haisley on November 12, 2013, 02:16:12 PM
Brian,
After looking at
http://woodgears.ca/marbles/index.html (http://woodgears.ca/marbles/index.html)
I'd say that something to slow the balls down when they near the bottom, preparatory to reloading, is key. On the other hand, given that you are using steel marbles with more mass (and magnetic properties) than his glass ones, you could do something with Hall effect or optical interruption and perhaps make a unique governor for the engine that drives the machine. Of course for real "steam punk" it should have a mechanical linkage for the governor action.
Maybe during the return the balls could fall down a chute and trip a counter cog coupled to a mechanical counter. Think of all the fun of making a bank of Geneva mechanisms for a counter.  :mischief: :atcomputer:
Alan
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: swilliams on November 13, 2013, 01:34:54 AM
Great video Brian

Steve
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 21, 2013, 09:00:48 PM
I haven't done any more since I took the video on the 11-Nov, because I've been sick!!! Not sick enough to lay down and die, but not well enough to feel like doing anything. I am assuming its some kind of flue (at least hoping that's what it is.) I have laid around and read books until my eyeballs are fried, I have wandered in and out of my little machine shop two dozen times, but don't have enough gumption to machine anything. I have done a few of the Solidworks tutorials on sheet-metal, which is a rather confusing part of Solidworks which I really don't use often, and consequently I'm not very good at using it. I THINK I have a new design contract coming up next week, and hope sincerely that by next week I am back to my (usually) good health, because there is some travel involved. My good wife has just quit one job 25 miles away, and immediately got a new job teaching at a local college about 1 mile away, so she is disgustingly happy, while I am moaning about the place, wishing I would either get better soon, or die very quickly, with the emphasis on "Get better soon!!! This is just a post to let you all know that I am still on the planet, with hopes that I will be back on this project before Christmas.---Brian
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Don1966 on November 22, 2013, 01:43:17 AM
Bummer Brian, when you feel bad and the flu really kicks the butt. Get well soon man!

Don
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: b.lindsey on November 22, 2013, 11:41:44 AM
Brian, that last video really showed how much effort you have put into this!!  Here's hoping you will feel better soon and be able to get back into the shop.

Bill
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 23, 2013, 08:08:54 PM
Today I'm feeling more like a living member of the human race, and I've uploaded my 2012 edition of Solidworks and finally gotten it sorted out, so Hey!!--Lets do a little more design. When my marble comes out the top of the Lexan tube, I want it to follow two paths, alternating between them each time. To do that, one needs to have a flip-flop gate. The flip flop gate is activated by the weight of the marble falling through it. I don't know exactly where those discharge tubes are going yet, but I do have a couple of small cast brass bells that I would like to incorporate!!!
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow009/MARBLEMACHINEWITHFLIPFLOPGATE_zps26be3a45.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow009/MARBLEMACHINEWITHFLIPFLOPGATE_zps26be3a45.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Alan Haisley on November 24, 2013, 08:11:49 PM
Hopefully the bells are, or can be made, different pitches. One in each flip-flop path. Very cool.

Alan
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 24, 2013, 09:28:47 PM
You're right, Alan. The bells are two different sizes with two distinctly different sounds.
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 24, 2013, 09:58:36 PM
Well, that's a days work!! Not very big pieces, but progress, none the less. I made the flip-flop gate, the shroud which bolts to one side of it to keep the marble from escaping, and the carrier plate which the flip-flop gate pivots on. That carrier plate also has two holes bored in it that are on a 5 degree angle down. The two pieces of 1" brass tube are the tubes which will be eventually used for marble tracks, but they have to be cut to length and have holes cut in for the marbles to enter from the side, out of the flip-flop gate. I changed the design from what I had modelled and posted in the last post, to simplify fabrication. Maybe tomorrow I will make the final piece which the carrier plate bolts to and is supported by the top of the Lexan tube.
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow009/FLIPFLOPGATE002_zpse1225db0.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow009/FLIPFLOPGATE002_zpse1225db0.jpg.html)
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow009/FLIPFLOPGATE003_zps93e0a2bc.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow009/FLIPFLOPGATE003_zps93e0a2bc.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 24, 2013, 11:23:46 PM
This is a blowup of the revised flip flop gate. As each marble escapes from the top of the green fixture on top of the Lexan tube, it will flip the gate to the opposite side. I had to watch a lot of Youtube videos to figure out what was actually happening there. The marble won't roll out the wrong end of the 1" diameter tube because the tube is angled down 5 degrees from horizontal towards the end I want the marble to come out of.
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow009/FLIPFLOPGATEBLOWUP_zps26deb172.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow009/FLIPFLOPGATEBLOWUP_zps26deb172.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 25, 2013, 06:21:11 PM
"Amazing" is a word that often gets overused.--And yet--I find it rather amazing how this flip flop gate works!! In the pictures you can see the 3/4" hole cut in the brass tubes to let the marble into one tube or the other, depending on whether the gate is "flipped" or "flopped". I destroyed another big industrial bearing this morning to come up with another dozen "marbles" --which are actually 11/16" diameter bearing balls. This gave me enough that I could keep loading the balls into the "load ramp" as I hand cranked the big pulley. The balls rise up in the tube, and each time one discharges, it hits on whichever side of the pointed ramp is offset from center, depending on which way the gate is tipped. As it rolls down that side, the weight of the marble tips the gate in the opposite direction so that the next marble will hit the other side of the pointed ramp and tip the gate in the other direction. Perhaps its true "Small things amuse small minds"!!  That probably says something about me, but I'm having fun!!!
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow009/FLIPFLOPGATEINSTALLED001_zps21c9c18a.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow009/FLIPFLOPGATEINSTALLED001_zps21c9c18a.jpg.html)
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow009/FLIPFLOPGATEINSTALLED002_zps86b08d25.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow009/FLIPFLOPGATEINSTALLED002_zps86b08d25.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 26, 2013, 02:26:26 PM
I had to machine a reducer shim to install in the very top of the fitting that discharges the marble out the spout to the flip flop gate. Since the i.d. of the Lexan tube was 3/4". I step bored that top piece 1" to fit over the tube and 3/4" to line up with the inside of the tube. This worked fine but---the marbles are only 11/16" diameter. the very top marble would roll towards the back side of the vertical hole and stay there, going out backwards over the open top instead of rolling foreword out the spout. The brass shim which is .080 thick at the widest part tapering to 0" at the end of each arm does the trick quite nicely and forces the topmost marble foreword so that it rolls out the spout as intended. The brass shim is Loctited in place.
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow009/SHIM003_zps2e31bc7e.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow009/SHIM003_zps2e31bc7e.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Alan Haisley on November 26, 2013, 09:27:23 PM
Brian,
I assume that the flip-flop has its CG over center so whichever way it tips it remains stable until the next marble drops.
Alan
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 26, 2013, 09:44:14 PM
You nailed it Alan. I am on the verge of making a video showing the flip flop gate in action, but had to go back and revisit the mechanism which releases one marble at a time to the pitching arm today, because it was not operating consistently. There is nothing worse than getting all set up to make a video and then having the machine operate inconsistently.
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 26, 2013, 10:50:10 PM
So after a full day of reconfiguring the gate which releases marbles one at a time to the pitching arm, we are far enough along to make a video showing the flip-flop gate in operation. I just spied a nice concave wooden salad bowl upstairs in the kitchen, but when I asked my wife if I could have it to add to the marble machine, my wife was quite indignant, and said that she has had that wooden salad bowl longer than she has me!!! I guess maybe I'll go have a look at Walmart----
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow009/th_FLIPFLOPGATEMOVIE_zpsb5f7049b.jpg) (http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow009/FLIPFLOPGATEMOVIE_zpsb5f7049b.mp4)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: swilliams on November 27, 2013, 10:25:21 PM
I really like the flip flop gate too Brian. What mechanically minded sort of person wouldn't find that mechanism fascinating?

Steve

Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Don1966 on November 28, 2013, 01:21:55 AM
Awesome Brian I like it, are you going to have the balls make there way back to the Shute?


Don
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 28, 2013, 01:33:35 PM
Yes Don--I want to make it a "closed loop" circuit.
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Arbalest on November 28, 2013, 04:26:34 PM
Nice job Brian. I think maybe Mathias would like to see this once it's finished!  :naughty:
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 28, 2013, 08:42:12 PM
I convinced my good wife that she should buy a new set of wooden salad bowls. This means that I get one of the four existing ones to add to my crazy machine. I sorted through my odd bits of 2" round aluminum, and found that by joining 3 of them together I can generate a heavy walled tube to fit under the wooden bowl. A piece of 1/4" aluminum plate will make a bell support for one of my bronze handbells, and a bit of 1/8" steel and some .094 dia. wire can be combined to make a bell clapper. Now the deal is, ---the ball rolls out the spout on one side of the flip flop gate, picks up some velocity from the 5 degree gradient, and discharges into the wooden bowl at one side, where it rolls in ever diminishing circles until, like the famed hoo-hoo bird it disappears up its own---no no--wait.--I mean until it falls down the hole thru the center of the bowl and down through the 3/4" hole drilled through the center of the 2" diameter aluminum. On the way down, the ball bearing strikes the clapper, causing it to rotate on its axle and ring the bell. The ball bearing then discharges from the bottom of the tube, lands in a ball track (which I have yet to make) and finds it's way back to the load ramp for the pitching arm.
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow009/FULLASSEMBLYWITHBOWL_zps32725a92.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow009/FULLASSEMBLYWITHBOWL_zps32725a92.jpg.html)
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow009/SUBASSYUNDERBOWL_zps6a6f85c7.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow009/SUBASSYUNDERBOWL_zps6a6f85c7.jpg.html)
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow009/SUBASSYUNDERBOWL-MODEL_zps2977f8ee.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow009/SUBASSYUNDERBOWL-MODEL_zps2977f8ee.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: wagnmkr on November 28, 2013, 10:47:12 PM
So ... Brian ... how much sleep have you lost figuring out what all this machine is going to do?

I like it ... are you going to publish the finished drawings like you usually do? I think I might see something like this machine in my future (once the h&m is done).

Cheers,

Tom
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 28, 2013, 10:59:57 PM
Tom--I'm having fun with this build!!! For one thing, I don't feel the pressure to go-go-go like I do when I am building an engine. As far as publishing drawings---I may at some point. I have to create the drawings anyways for myself, so it isn't a large leap to post them. I don't lay awake thinking of what to do next on this machine. I have a rather vague overall idea of it, and of course every time I watch another marble machine video on Youtube the plan in my head changes a little bit. With engines, you have to have the design complete BEFORE you start to build, or you can very easily paint yourself into a corner. With this thing, its largely "design as I go".---Brian
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Johnmcc69 on November 29, 2013, 03:15:37 PM
VERY COOL project Brian. I love all the mechanical motions going on.
I'll bet it's a fun CAD project also.

Nice work!

John
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: smfr on November 30, 2013, 05:49:42 AM
I was just able to watch the video. It's gonna be really fun to watch this whole thing run, driven by an engine! It should be a good crowd-pleaser. Very ingenious.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Simon
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 01, 2013, 08:22:26 PM
 I've got the bowl, I've mounted the bell---now all I need is a slot in the pedestal the bowl is setting on and to fabricate a clapper. This is very much "make it up as I go along", but even so I like to model this stuff first. It saves me a lot of remaking parts and beating my head on the wall!!!
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow009/BELLANDBOWL001_zps19857b92.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow009/BELLANDBOWL001_zps19857b92.jpg.html)
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BrianRupnow009/BELLANDBOWL003_zpsade1da19.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/BrianRupnow/media/BrianRupnow009/BELLANDBOWL003_zpsade1da19.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: sbwhart on December 02, 2013, 07:52:07 AM
Been quietly watching progress Brian a real fun project 

:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

 :pinkelephant: :pinkelephant:

Thanks for showing

Stew
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 02, 2013, 01:52:33 PM
Thanks Stew--I'm glad you're enjoying it. It most certainly is different!!!----Brian
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: m_kilde on February 01, 2014, 07:36:13 PM
Hello Brian

Just stumpled on your fascinating project - this has been a very inspiring topic  -  when I run out of engine projects this could surely be a new sort of task to take up in the workshop

Thank you very much for sharing
Title: Re: MARBLE LIFTING AUTOMATION
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 01, 2014, 08:18:21 PM
I do plan on getting back to this after I have my opposed piston engine running.---Brian