Model Engine Maker

Supporting => Vehicles & Models => Topic started by: Jo on October 01, 2013, 01:30:13 PM

Title: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on October 01, 2013, 01:30:13 PM
The story of this model of an engine starts over 2 decades ago when on my first date with my ex he took me to the Rudwick Steam rally. Now traction engines are very desirable or so I thought but then I came face to face with Marylin (1919 Fowler BB1) and all hope was lost.

http://www.steamscenes.org.uk/engines/fowler/ploughing-engine/15332/1 (http://www.steamscenes.org.uk/engines/fowler/ploughing-engine/15332/1)

The BB1 is probably the commonist of all the steam ploughs you will see, it is also the engine that I have actually ploughed with:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/IMG_4633.jpg)

I discovered that Blackgates could provide a set of blueprints for a 2” version designed by John Hanning that I purchased, sadly these left a lot to be desired  :disappointed: Following encouragement, from he who hath gone, I decided to build in 4” scale with the help of the equipment at the college engineering department that he worked at. But I try not to think about those engines as they are not with me any more >:( So finally it is time to start again and this time I will have no one to steal my dreams from me  ;).

I have decided to make only one this time as I find little pleasure in doing things twice and I know of someone else who is thinking of making another 2” ploughing engine, which will give us a pair that we could play with, if either of us gets the desire to watch our flywheels going round  :insane:. As for scale I learnt from building the 4” that it is not something you attempt on your own, even the individual wheels take two to lift, I toyed with the idea of making her in 3” but without a partner to help that could get difficult at times (and I see no chance of that situation changing during this build ;)) so have decided to build in 2” as I have a little more chance of being able to woman handle her parts on my own.

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on October 01, 2013, 01:36:41 PM
Where to start: lets be honest it has been a long time on the build list, it is a big job, and will cost a pretty penny or two. Two months ago I finally committed to this build by ordering the boiler. I am told I will hear more about it after Xmas when I need to have the boiler fitting positions sorted out.. Another 12 months and it will be ready  ;).

Whilst previously I had access to larger metal rollers, hydraulic guillotines and things, I don't now so it is easier for me to subcontract out the wheel rims and buy them in fully welded (Aluminium rims are about the same price but totally the wrong material :disappointed: ). And whilst I am dealing with sheet metal working companies it is probably easier to get them to laser cut the spokes and a few other bits and pieces and then for me to finish the parts off rather than what I did last time which was to make a lot of swarf :) . 

So the subcontract list is growing, thankfully the full budget is available. All I need is the drawings for the company to cut to. Which brings me round to where I am today: designing and drawing the engine.

I have a starting point in the Hanning drawings but as I mentioned they leave a lot to be desired :ShakeHead: A lot of his design has been overly simplified, some things are downright :hellno: wrong but for a 40 year old design John Hanning did a lot better design on this engine than I could have at the time.

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on October 01, 2013, 01:55:45 PM
As the major subcontract part is the wheels this was the logical place to start. Designing the parts for the wheels was not the problem, getting Alibre to assemble them was. I have chosen to use a double tee ring for the rim, rather than two seperate Tees: I can add a line around the inside if I so desire. The hub is made up of 6 pieces with 14 spokes, 4 tyre sections completing the wheel.

Don’t ask about the hind wheels they are drawn but still will not assemble  :rant:.

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: steamer on October 01, 2013, 02:03:19 PM
I'm in!...


Have at it Jo!

Dave
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on October 01, 2013, 02:09:19 PM
'bout time you started posting on this one, are you going to show the shiny bits you have already done.

Don't know if "common" is the right word for something as desirable as a BB1 they they are not excatly rare unlike your possible ploughing partners subject matter ;)

J
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: vcutajar on October 01, 2013, 02:15:56 PM
I'm in also.

Love your build logs.  Learned at lot.

Vince
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on October 01, 2013, 02:46:50 PM
 :shrug:

I am feeling guilty about posting anything to do with this build here as it is not technically a model stationary engine. But as she is going to take a lot of my time over the next few years and I don't want anyone thinking I have done something really really stupid like finding myself a boyfriend  :disappointed: or given up making engines :hellno:

I will still be making model engines in parallel with her but she is going to be demanding some of my time ;)

And before anyone asks no she is not going on my dining table as it is not strong enough  :ROFL:.

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: b.lindsey on October 01, 2013, 03:11:40 PM
I'm here too Jo, looking forward to seeing this one take shape, however long it takes.

Bill
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Dave Otto on October 01, 2013, 03:25:33 PM
Looks like a great long term project;

I will be looking forward to seeing the updates on this one.

Dave
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Dan Rowe on October 01, 2013, 03:47:03 PM
I am feeling guilty about posting anything to do with this build here as it is not technically a model stationary engine.

Jo, who cares if it has wheels other than fly wheels? There are several threads on model marine engines ongoing and no one has noticed that technically they are not stationary engines either.

Parts are parts we like to see them made with lots of photos and you do a very good job of photos and explanations with your builds so please let us watch this build.

Dan
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Stuart on October 01, 2013, 04:18:47 PM
go for it Jo , but please give some build progress here so we can follow along with the trials and tribulations that always seem to happen along the way


as for me due to having to use crutches I have had to go the other way

I have just sold two part finished loco's 5 inch G Linda was surprised when I walked in with the gelt it was all in £20's and looked like a house brick in a bag , that was soon shoved into the big handbag and hurried of to the bank

so as I have said before keep up the good work we are all watching for the next instalment in the long road to its completion I do not blame you in the least in subbing out the heavy work and the use of laser cut parts , at least it lets you get on with the more interesting bits

Stuart
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: pgp001 on October 01, 2013, 05:16:06 PM
Jo
I for one will be delighted to see a traction engine build on here.

I built a 3" scale Ruston Proctor class SCD compound tractor a few years ago, and still have the castings stashed away for a 1½" Marshall portable, and a 1½" Burrell SCC traction engine.

I really must stop making tools or thinking about traction engines, and get back onto Agnes very soon.

Phil

PS I dont think you will be needing that 3/8" BCA collet for building a 2" Fowler  ;D
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on October 01, 2013, 07:26:22 PM
Jo, as an old boy that has walked a furrow behind a mule(for fun)  and plowed one with a tractor, I never experienced doing one with steam as my grand pap did. I'd watch this build like watching a known card shark in a poker game. I think our little group here is spreading it's wings and we might should be open to more types of builds. As long as it's got an engine or driven by one I personally want to see the whole project, whether it be stationary, loco, traction, marine, aviation,  or what ever. You build it and I'll blacksmith the plow.  8)

Whiskey
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on October 01, 2013, 08:16:57 PM
Its worth remembering that the usual way of steam ploughing in the US is direct traction - towing the plough behind the engine. In the UK the prefered method was to have  apair of engines and pull a plough back and forth between the two using the underslung cable drums, though there are a few variations on the theme.

J
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: tvoght on October 01, 2013, 08:39:19 PM
That's a really interesting point Jason, and certainly new to me. It caused me to go searching for a video. Here's a pretty good one.

 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqUqzkRQnus)WqUqzkRQnus[/url]
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on October 01, 2013, 08:42:34 PM
Jason, being somewhat new to the steam world and all that it is in your neck of the woods, I was quite unaware of this. I now must look for some type of video demo :cheers: see while I was posting tvoght had the same thoughts . Thanks t

Whiskey
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on October 01, 2013, 08:51:27 PM
CACHjIGH3kQ
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on October 01, 2013, 09:02:02 PM
Well By God Virgil, I ain't never. Like a big donkey with wheels, no, two donkeys with wheels.  :lolb:
Thanks Jason

Whiskey
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Maryak on October 01, 2013, 11:52:14 PM
Jo,

If you would like to post the offending step file that won't assemble maybe we could figure out why.

Best Regards
Bob
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 02, 2013, 12:30:09 AM
When I was a young boy, back when dinosaurs still roamed the earth, the local sawmill was driven by a big steam traction engine that looked remarkably similar to the one in the very first post of this thread. It was owned by a Mr. Stapely, and every morning at 7:00 you could hear the whistle blow to signal "starting time" at the sawmill. An old man named Arthur Jones lived rent free in a little house in the mill yard, and he paid to stay there by getting up every morning at 4:00 A.M. and firing the boiler with a fresh load of slabs to make sure the steam was up by 7:00. Everybody dreaded hearing 3 blasts on the whistle during the day, because that signalled an accident at the mill, and there were some pretty damned gruesome accidents. My dad was a lumberjack, who would be away from home in the logging camps all winter, until the ice went out in April, and the logs were driven down the lakes and rivers to either Jim Browns water powered mill, or trucked to Stapeley's mill. Dad would come out of the camps, go on a two week "bender" with a bunch of my uncles, then work at one of the mills until about mid August when all the logs were sawn. Then stay home and draw "pogey" until hunting season, butcher our hog, shoot a white tailed deer, and then be gone back to the logging camps for another winter. This was a pretty typical way of life in rural Ontario  in the early 1950's.
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Don1966 on October 02, 2013, 02:39:59 AM
I am glad to see the video of these traction engines working. I can see why using cables between traction engine to plough with. I guess they were a bit to large and heavy to go row to row.
The way I grew up we had mules to pull the plough with and I did a lot of walking behind that plough. We were not wealthy enough to own a traction engine so I guess this is why I had never see one in action.
Years later my father bought a second hand John Deere tractor of which he stayed on while we walked behind the mule. Thanks for link.

Don
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on October 02, 2013, 07:45:34 AM
We do more than just plough fields with Steam Ploughs ;D.

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on October 02, 2013, 07:59:15 AM
One advantage of the cable method is that the heavy engines do not compact the ground. The method does suit larger more open fields which probably are still classed as small by US standards.

Though the sideways pull can have its disadvantages on soft ground

(http://www.steamscenes.org.uk/pictures/2008/spcAgm/DSC_7183.jpg)
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Pete49 on October 03, 2013, 04:12:37 AM
About 5 years ago I went to a steam and old engine show that's run every year at Orroroo in Sth Aust and watched 2 traction engines demo how they used to dig dams here and then they also did a ploughing  demo. Great to watch. Probably go again next year as I find a 5 year or so break tends to show new stuff that's been refurbished and running.
Pete
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: tel on October 03, 2013, 09:58:13 AM
 ;D I last attended Orroroo in 1986, so I'm well overdue!
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: ProdEng on October 03, 2013, 11:18:34 AM
BB surely stands for Beautiful Beast  :ThumbsUp: Look forward to seeing parts being made for this epic project Jo.
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Steam Haulage on October 03, 2013, 02:42:19 PM
Just a quick question.
On all the videos of steam ploughing the cable gets wound onto the drum very neatly, it seems well under control. Shown is a 'jockey' wheel which moves up and down. Does anyone have any idea how this guidance system works?
Unless of course every cable is the same diameter and the guide moves a constant amount for each turn of the drum.

I'll be glad to know.

JerryNotts
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on October 03, 2013, 02:46:49 PM
Jerry it is one of those little items I will be designing shortly (or it might be longly  :LittleDevil:)

In the meantime...

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Alan Haisley on October 03, 2013, 07:22:31 PM
Jo,
Engines are made for work - move air, move water, pull cables, move boats, move wheels.
Regardless, modeling a machine shows techniques of fabricating all of the "fiddly bits", whether part of a engine or part of what it works with.
Learning how to make "fiddly bits" is what I look forward to seeing - and I'm looking forward to seeing a lot of them in this build  :atcomputer:
Alan
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Steam Haulage on October 03, 2013, 08:23:29 PM
Thank you Jo,

I could say obvious really, but that we be a distortion of the truth. Even with the description in front of me I shall have to spend some time puzzling before I really understand.

When I was in primary school (1950s) my father ran a fleet of Ruston Bucyrus rope operated  excavators, these were some of the biggest in England at that time. He tried to explain how the winding gear worked but I was too in awe and perhaps a little frightened of the ginormous Perkins diesel  and the rattling of the steel cabin. I did however learn how the wartime runways had been built and how weak the concrete was. No rebar then.

JerryNotts
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on October 03, 2013, 08:36:29 PM
Jerry, a view of the outside of the tappet wheel may make things clearer. By the time the tappet wheel has made one full revolution the jocky wheel on the end of the arm that guides the rope will have gone from the bottom of the drum to the top and back down again, its basically a cam. By altering the number of gear teeth the relation between drum depth and  cable thickness can be adjusted so you get a full coverage of the drum
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Steam Haulage on October 04, 2013, 07:50:23 AM
Thank Jason,

The realisation that there is a cam involved makes it much clearer. Thank you.

JerryNotts
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on October 07, 2013, 03:59:39 PM
One of the interesting "faults" in the Hanning Drawings was that way in which all the road gears were all 8DP. The consequence of this is that the 2nd and 3rd shafts had to move. Resulting in all sorts of issues including miss shaped Hornbrackets, wrong numbers of teeth and hence gearing  :hammerbash:

On a normal traction engine each of the shafts has a different DP. I found that by copying the original shaft location for the BB1 and using the free Gear calculation program that using 7, 8 and 9 DP gears I could put the shafts back in their correct position and the number of teeth on each gear are nearly spot on the original  :naughty:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: arnoldb on October 07, 2013, 05:57:55 PM
Good going so far Jo  :ThumbsUp:

I'm really interested in the gearing and drive, so will be tagging along closely.

There's this engine here in Namibia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_%28steam_locomotive%29); now in pretty sorry state with lots of bits missing.  One day I'd like to build a semi-fine-scale, but fully functional live steam model of it, so I'm very interested in traction engine builds.

Kind regards, Arnold
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on October 10, 2013, 09:22:02 AM
Sorry Arnold, I dabbed my toe in the water here to see if there was any interest in the model engine gear design problem and other than yourself there is none  :shrug:.

As you know I was never sure if it was appropriate to post this engine design/build on this site so I am thinking of moving this thread to Chatterbox and not posting further on this build.

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: vcutajar on October 10, 2013, 10:36:42 AM
Jo

I am sorry to hear that you are not going to show further progress on this model.  As far as I am concerned, anything having to do with this hobby, would be of interest to me.

Vince
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: steamer on October 10, 2013, 10:48:07 AM
Sorry Arnold, I dabbed my toe in the water here to see if there was any interest in the model engine gear design problem and other than yourself there is none  :shrug:.

As you know I was never sure if it was appropriate to post this engine design/build on this site so I am thinking of moving this thread to Chatterbox and not posting further on this build.

Jo

That is very unfortunate,  I was really looking forward to seeing that Jo   Can't you reconsider?  I think it's a fascinating subject!

Dave
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: ths on October 10, 2013, 11:00:10 AM
I was looking forward to seeing this one develop. I'm of no use to you with your gear questions, but I'd love to see this come to fruition. Pretty please?

Hugh.
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: steamer on October 10, 2013, 11:04:10 AM
One of the interesting "faults" in the Hanning Drawings was that way in which all the road gears were all 8DP. The consequence of this is that the 2nd and 3rd shafts had to move. Resulting in all sorts of issues including miss shaped Hornbrackets, wrong numbers of teeth and hence gearing  :hammerbash:

On a normal traction engine each of the shafts has a different DP. I found that by copying the original shaft location for the BB1 and using the free Gear calculation program that using 7, 8 and 9 DP gears I could put the shafts back in their correct position and the number of teeth on each gear are nearly spot on the original  :naughty:

Jo

pictures..spreadsheet, drawings.........what was that saying.......?

Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Stuart on October 10, 2013, 11:41:46 AM
Jo please reconsider your position on this

after all they are stationary engines when they are doing the work as intended not loco_moting about

I for one would love to follow your progress on this build

in great hope Stuart
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: steamer on October 10, 2013, 11:44:21 AM
OK so I'm still looking for the detractors for this thread Jo.  Haven't found any yet.
 :stickpoke:
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Maryak on October 10, 2013, 12:15:07 PM
Sorry Arnold, I dabbed my toe in the water here to see if there was any interest in the model engine gear design problem and other than yourself there is none  :shrug: .

As you know I was never sure if it was appropriate to post this engine design/build on this site so I am thinking of moving this thread to Chatterbox and not posting further on this build.

Jo

I would have thought that in their original form most traction engines and indeed most machinery of that era would have cycloidal gears rather than involute gears. This would IMHO be even more likely if the gears were cast.

Best Regards
Bob
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Dan Rowe on October 10, 2013, 01:14:51 PM
Bob, I know that in the US that machinery of this vintage mostly used cycloidal  gears. The AGMA was not formed until 1916 so there were no standards. Things like pressure angle and the ratio of the addendum to the dedendum varied with different makers.

Jo, I have a keen interest in gears of all sorts and have a bunch of gear books that are usually not on the shelf they live on the top of the stack of papers that I think has a desk under it.

Dan
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on October 10, 2013, 01:20:09 PM
Jo had you asked what could have been done with the original 8DP setup on here I'm sure you would have got a responce. You just stated that you had designed your way around the problem so all you could really expect is a "good for you, well done" sort of reply.

I did not post a reply as we have covered the issue by e-mail in the past.

I'm sure once you start posting bits of metal or asking for ways to produce things you will get more responce. Why not post your cannon bracket query here to test the water.

J
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: steamer on October 10, 2013, 01:31:02 PM
Wot Jason Said!

Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: tangler on October 10, 2013, 02:26:45 PM
As far as I am aware, there is no charter for this group so I do not see how a 1/6 scale ploughing engine doesn't fit with "A Global Community of Model Engine Machinists".  Certainly more relevant than building tools, which I am also happy to see.  I wouldn't have a problem with locomotives either, providing that it kept to making rather than running, the techniques are pertinent to all.  I guess the only question really is that of size -  half scale traction engines don't fall within my (arbitrary) definition of model engineering but 1/6 does.   So, if Jo can spare the time, I would love to see progress on her model of these magnificent machines and anybody else making something similar.

Having written the above a sort of definition for what is relevant has occurred to me but it is impossible to police.  It comes down to intent - If the aim is to make a working model for it's own sake then that is why we are here.  If the intent is to make something so that we can ride around behind it pretending to be a train driver or a traction engine steerer then maybe that isn't what Model Engine Maker is for.

Just my tuppenceworth - I really like it here. :)
Rod
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: b.lindsey on October 10, 2013, 02:52:17 PM
I would love to see the build log continue as well, even if I have little to contribute to the gear problem at hand. I don't see how this can NOT be considered an engine.

Bill
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Kim on October 10, 2013, 04:14:28 PM
I too would love to see you continue this build log here Jo.  I am very much in favor of this being considered an engine.

Kim
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: IanR on October 10, 2013, 08:02:56 PM
I'd be happy to watch someone building a ploughing engine.
Are the full size gears cp rather than DP?
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jim Nic on October 10, 2013, 10:09:56 PM
We seem to be tying ourselves in knots here about what is appropriate content for this site.  :shrug:  I am happy to see anything that adds to my store of model engineering knowledge that I may then apply to my own meagre efforts.  Whether that is Jo or anyone else taking the time and putting in the effort to produce a build log of any project from which I gain just a smidgin of their knowledge and experience I am grateful. 
Hopefully, in time to come, I may have the confidence to describe my one of my own projects but till then "Keep 'em coming" I say, and if it turns out I am not overly interested then I can always choose not to follow that particular thread.
In short, as long as it involves engineering models then I am all for it and I would join other posters in asking Jo to continue with her traction engine log.

Jim
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: tel on October 10, 2013, 10:32:57 PM
Well said Jim! I, too, would like to see the series continue and less emphasis on what 'is' or 'is not' a suitable topic for the forum.
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Don1966 on October 11, 2013, 01:11:12 AM
I for one would love to see this thread continue. A traction engine is a marvel to see and to see it get built makes for a great learning experience. It is an engine, as not to say a minature one, but an engine no less. I say go for it and keep this thread going Jo.

Don
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: metalmad on October 11, 2013, 04:46:58 AM
Traction Engines Rock!
Pete
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Stilldrillin on October 11, 2013, 07:24:06 AM
I would love to watch this adventure unfold, as I have for most of the projects on here.  :ThumbsUp:

Unfortunately, if we must only make, "models of engines". This is the wrong forum for me!  :facepalm2:

David D
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Roger B on October 11, 2013, 02:14:04 PM
Sent from China so hopefully it comes through! I see no problem with this, it is a model engine in every sense. If I look through the section there is:
joe d building a 1" scale traction engine
s b whart finishing a 5" gauge steam locomotive
Dan Rowe building a splendid Shay geared narrow gauge locomotive
Many members are enjoying and commenting on these threads. It is a model and it is an engine. Jo, please keep posting about it. Many on here (especially me) have a lot to learn about model engineering and your clear explanations and problem solving are an education. :praise2:

Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on November 12, 2013, 07:53:10 AM
Ok guys a challenge for you I need a few large diameter blanks for my girl:

280mm (11") dia 20mm thick
225mm (9") dia 45mm thick,
207mm (8 1/2") dia 12.7 thick.

These are for some gear wheels I need to make so I would prefer cast iron but I do have commercial cutters so steel is an option...  a local supplier quoted me a reasonable price for 9" blanks and then when I asked him to get them the price doubled  >:(. And he couldn't do the 11"

I have heard suggestions of using training weights...  :noidea: the hole in the middle might be a bit big and I am not sure if I could bush the centre.

Jason spotted that M-Machine can do Black EN3 in appropriate sizes .. I have no idea if that is any good for gear wheels or machining. It is big enough  ;) but I don't want to think about the postage costs  :o

So any suggestions of things that I might re use or suppliers who might not want to finance their pension fund  :disappointed: from this purchase.

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Steamer5 on November 12, 2013, 09:14:58 AM
Hi Jo,
    A girl with your talent, although you dont like playing with it, could make a couple of patterns & have them cast. I'm guessing that they are solid not spoked so shouldnt tax your skills. What about getting your "local" water cutter to cut you some blanks, flame  or laser cut are other options.....must be somebody not to far off your route to / from work, you just may have to scarifice some of those moths you saved on your fix on the converter :LittleDevil:. Re using weight, seem to recall other's heading down that route & yes it was possible but the quality of the cast iron left a bit to be desired & the "damage" to tooling would need to be weighed against allowing moths to escape :stir: :Argue:
Just my thoughts.
And to add my vote, YES please continue posting the build, lots to learn here that will be useful when I finally get the stuff round the house finished & am allowed back to the workshop.....have to clean it first

Cheers Kerrin
 
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on November 12, 2013, 01:30:10 PM
Thanks Kerrin,

Yes that is my next possible way forward. I have been offerred a 3ft by 2ft box of Iron castings for £50, plus P&P plus VAT.... So I am assuming £100 a box by the time I have filled it  >:D.

The problem is it is that brown stuff  :paranoia: needed to make the patterns out of. I suppose one day I am going to have to learn how to handle wood properly but I keep putting it off :embarassed:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: b.lindsey on November 12, 2013, 02:50:07 PM
Jo,

Sounds to me like those moths are just itching to get out of your purse again!!  What about a cast iron rim for the teeth and a less expensive metal (aluminum perhaps) for the inside. Cast iron pipe in those sizes may be more available and less expensive. I had gotten a piece a few months back for later use on the Corliss, but it was more like 6-7" od.  Anyway, just a thought.

Bill
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Steam Haulage on November 12, 2013, 04:33:07 PM
Hi Jo,

I have recently bought some CI bar from M-Machine 220x45 mm less than £40 for the metal, total delivered including VAT & delivery nearly £58. For CI tube 25mm wall x100 x 50 wide about £24 plus plus.

JerryNotts
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on November 12, 2013, 04:52:30 PM
The casting box does sound like the way to go, if you were cunning you could make a pattern that you could get the winding drum ring gear and one of the smaller gears out of thus saving room in the box. You could also add some basic holes in the patterns to remove the excess material between the spokes rather than make a detailed pattern with the "+" section spokes.

The iron will also be a lot easier to cut the teeth into.

Think you need to have a read of Conrads diary about patterns & casting the gears.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/corromant/construction.htm

Looks like I better get that S&P base finished as I see the need to be making more things :ShakeHead:
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on November 12, 2013, 05:20:46 PM
 :-*   


 :whoohoo: :whoohoo: :whoohoo:
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: b.lindsey on November 12, 2013, 06:47:43 PM
Jo, would seem that a few of the moths are safe then until another day :)

Bill
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on December 23, 2013, 11:23:20 AM
 :paranoia: It had to be done: green stuff  :facepalm: I have started turning up the winding drum and driving gear wheel patterns, thankfully even the winding drum gear fitted on the smaller of the two faceplates:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/shafts%20and%20gears/IMG_5471.jpg)

These patterns are just straight blanks I see no point it making elaborate patterns only to have to repeat the exercise when it comes to machining them. So far I seem to be collecting a few:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/shafts%20and%20gears/IMG_5472.jpg)

Sadly the postman still has not delivered the blackboard paint that I have been instructed to paint them with and the swarf :rant:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: steamer on December 23, 2013, 11:25:26 AM
Run the shop vac while your turning it Jo....it will control it pretty well.

Dave
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on December 23, 2013, 01:24:27 PM
I thought that you might have thinned out the centres a bit even if you don't cut the actual spokes, it will make quite a difference if they charge by the Kg. I'd also think about casting the reinforcing webs into the top of the drum as it will save lots of machining.

Also hard to see from the photos but have you put a draft angle on the edges?

J
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on December 23, 2013, 03:30:34 PM
The gear wheel spokes are cruciform, so would need to be a two part pattern .  By putting the other gear wheels on as a stack I have something to hold in the chuck but it does not leave many options for saving metal, maybe a shallow undercut on the bottom up to just before the smaller gear. Based on the price for solid bar of the larger size spending lots of time undercutting might save £5 on the casting price but increase the possibilities of casting flaws. The foundry prefers simpler patterns so if it takes them longer setting it up they might charge me the extra £5 for their time any way. I can get all of these in one box (£50), if I do them seperatley I will need three boxes (£150)

This is the top of the winding drum, the flanges are not very big and I am tempted to add them after rather than make myself lots of work. I was thinking of adding a steel ring under the gear ring as the flange  ;)

As you know the dutch guy machined his out of solid, that was where I was going. These patterns are all about getting a solid blank to machine the bits out of, which should be cheaper than buying bar and having to pay the excessive cutting fees.

There is a 5 degree draft angle.

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Stuart on December 23, 2013, 03:34:35 PM
Jo

That poor lathe the state of it with all that brown dust on it proper made me cry got though a box of hankies just looking at it

nice work on the project don't forget as Jason has said the draft ( not the one under the door )

Stuart

enjoy your visitors on Wednesday  :mischief:
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on December 23, 2013, 04:37:57 PM
Jo
enjoy your visitors on Wednesday  :mischief:

Thanks Stuart, My nephew is visiting on Thursday. Not sure what to do this year... Sis wants me to let a 9 year old loose on a lathe  :hellno: I have watched him on my Wii computer game... he doesn't have the motor skills  :disappointed:.

I did however recover my Mecanno Construction (building site) set from my parents  :thinking: A bit more practise with bending bits of metal, screwing things together, getting nuts and bolts the right tension would not go a miss.

Jo

Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on December 23, 2013, 05:13:05 PM
I thought the Dutch guys cast the top and placed it onto a steel plate. Even if you did not cast the ribs you could just trepan a recess. The smaller wheel from te centre could just be connected by the 4 "tabs" that lay over the central cross.

Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on December 23, 2013, 05:16:16 PM
 :hellno: I am not doing that the original has a smooth round inner rim (and that is reflected in the lower casting). I know the original Fowler Drawings show something different.

And if you look at the flanges there is a very important gap between each where it joins the centre.. between each is a drainage hole  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Johnmcc69 on December 23, 2013, 06:20:57 PM
what a nice project! have not seen a model of this before...
 I remember seeing a video of one of these monsters dragging a small Caterpillar dozer across a field.
Very impressive!

 John
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on December 23, 2013, 06:58:01 PM
:hellno: I am not doing that the original has a smooth round inner rim. What ever the drawings say.

And if you look at the flanges there is a very important gap between each where it joins the centre.. between each is a drainage hole  ;)

Jo

Yes the bump around the holes should only be on the lower casting, the top ring should be round as you say. Jan's 1 1/2" one has it correct and its shown on that drawing that I sent you though they have missed a bit of hatching.

But the drain holes don't all work when the drum is laid at an angle ;)
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: ths on December 23, 2013, 08:14:54 PM
You've been very brave with the wood Jo. Next you'll find yourself considering working with something with grain! All the best for the season.

Cheers, Hugh.
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on December 31, 2013, 03:24:38 PM
Since my last post the patterns have had their edges smoothed and the corners smoothed with some car body filler so today they were independently inspected and I am pleased to say passed muster , so they now have been given a coat of blackboard paint  ;D

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/shafts%20and%20gears/IMG_5532.jpg)

I am going to see how they go (and cost) at the foundry and then look at making a more complicated set of patterns for the cylinder. And he also inspected those other three little patterns  :naughty: in the foreground which are not for the BB1  :Love:


And :o how did that happen, I have let a set of my engine castings out of the house :facepalm:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: b.lindsey on December 31, 2013, 04:29:09 PM
Those look good Jo to my un=experienced eye at least. Will look forward to seeing how the castings turn out !!

Bill
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: mikemill on December 31, 2013, 04:35:29 PM
Jo
I built a BB1around twenty years ago using Collin Tyler’s castings; he was a pal of John Hainning who designed the plough. It was a very enjoyable build; I used to make my own boilers in those days, before legislation went mad.
Fowler ploughs make a very distinctive noise when working and the twin exhaust beat and the clank of the gear train replicates in the model, pure joy!!
Keep up the good work
Mike
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on December 31, 2013, 04:38:29 PM

And :o how did that happen, I have let a set of my engine castings out of the house :facepalm:

Jo

Well you did keep some of mine as hostage to ensure their safe return :Lol:
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: steamer on January 01, 2014, 08:33:01 AM
Single pull from the back, interesting!   Loose patterns in a foundry is somewhat rare these days....glad you're on your way with them.

Dave
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: mikemill on January 01, 2014, 12:32:35 PM
Jo
It’s been a long time since I built my plough but I will try to help if I can. Reworking a proven design is fine as long as it works, draw it out first, using shaft centre’s as datum’s, even go as far as turning up blank discs at PCD’s to prove all is well. The gear brackets will require some serious pattern making!!
Do you know of the book Fowler Steam Cultivating Machinery 1900-1930 by G.F.A Gilbert. published by The Road Locomotive Society. It contains all original photographs and works drawings very useful as reference, unless you have the real thing to measure? I am sure you will have lots of fun
Mike
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: mikemill on January 01, 2014, 02:35:29 PM
Jo
You seem to be well on top of the job, I think it will be me asking you for advice!!
Did you find 3D CAD hard to learn? It certainly is a very useful tool.

Mike    
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: John Hill on January 17, 2014, 09:26:52 AM
Hi Jo, I am watching this project with great interest!

BTW, a lot of the land in this part of New Zealand was first ploughed by traction engines but for some reason I dont understand they never used the cable and winch method instead just coupling up a few horse ploughs..
(http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/138536.jpg)
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on January 17, 2014, 10:00:25 AM
 :thinking: those are very shallow, we pulled 14" deep furrows last time I used a Steam plough  ;D.

The patterns are being dropped off tomorrow to go to the foundry :whoohoo: at the same time I hope to pick up some more of the metal needed and then once the S&P is together nothing will stop this build starting :pinkelephant:

Maybe I could just sneak out and make a little something for her  :naughty:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on January 24, 2014, 04:10:25 PM
The gear castings will be ready for collection on Friday  :whoohoo:

 :thinking: Rather dearer than I expected but I am getting twice as many as I need, just in case  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Stuart on January 24, 2014, 04:29:00 PM
Just moved the comfy armchair to the computer desk in anticipation

I do wonder in the good old days pre H&S how many people were injured with the wire rope used in steam ploughing when it parted/came adrift to quote Ron Weaslys dad its like a iron bar drum tight



Stuart
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on February 20, 2014, 10:00:02 AM
 :cartwheel: The castings are ready  :cartwheel:

 (http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Love/love-061.gif) Sorry guys you might not be seeing me for a while :whoohoo:

Jo

Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on February 21, 2014, 07:01:40 PM
They have arrived, ok I know not very interesting for the rest of you  :-[ but I am very  :whoohoo:

These are my first castings and they came out better than I ever hoped for  :pinkelephant:

Guess where they are  :naughty:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Andy on February 21, 2014, 07:14:17 PM
They look nice Jo and I guess you will be letting those mature a bit  O:-)  How much (roughly) would those cost to have poured ? (sorry for being nosey)  :slap:
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on February 21, 2014, 07:23:21 PM
Andy, I think you need some dimensions, the biggies are

Outside diameter 10 3/4" 3/4" thick,
6 1/14" dia 3/4" thick,
5 1/12" dia 3/4" thick

£65. I was quoted £48 for a slice of 9" diameter 1" thick bar  ;)

Smaller multi stage castings £60  :), single blank £35  :-\.

If you look on sexy's thread then those parts were £20 (5" mushrooms) , £28 (backing plate) , £32 (main table  8))each. 

Edit: the large casting weights 27lbs  ;).

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Andy on February 21, 2014, 08:13:19 PM
Thank you for that Jo  :ThumbsUp:
 I dont think that is too expensive at all. They are rather large lumps  ^-^ Of course you had to make the patterns, but I think it far better to turn a lot of scrap from wood rather than metal :)
 
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on February 21, 2014, 08:18:21 PM
I can't see those spending very long under the bed maturing, expect you are itching to start making swarf, black hankies here we come!!

With the success of these castings will you be making a cylinder pattern any time soon?

J
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on February 21, 2014, 08:38:39 PM
 :embarassed: I need someone to check my design before I start on the pattern  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: b.lindsey on February 22, 2014, 01:00:12 AM
From the picture, it looks like those came out very well Jo. I assume that is the dining table?  A little gray iron always goes well with dinner :)

Bill
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Maryak on February 22, 2014, 03:08:52 AM
From the picture, it looks like those came out very well Jo. I assume that is the dining table?  A little gray iron always goes well with dinner :)

Bill

We were too poor to own an ironing board so like Jo, mum did her ironing on the dining room table. :facepalm:

Best Regards
Bob
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: RickBarnes on February 22, 2014, 08:13:29 AM
What's ironing?  :-) like the DeWrinkle cycle on the dryer?   
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on March 23, 2014, 05:48:30 PM
I found a large lump of steel:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/IMG_6301.jpg)

And thought I might like to make a beam out of it:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/IMG_6302.jpg)

It was 12mm too wide  :wallbang: so a lot of swarf was made.

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/IMG_6303.jpg)

The ends were squared off:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/IMG_6305.jpg)

It is still too thick but that will have to wait until after it has made friends with the lathe  ;). At the end of the day I have a piece which is roughly shaped up:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/IMG_6306.jpg)

Lots and lots of swarf  :cartwheel: and a couple of hub caps  ;D

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on March 23, 2014, 06:29:33 PM
You can't have found that in your usual place as there is no rust on it :LittleDevil:

I just thought you could have forged it down to size and that way have gained that extra bit of length that you wanted :hammerbash:
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Andy on March 23, 2014, 06:57:13 PM
Looks like a good start on a tapping wrench...  :slap:
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Heffalump on March 24, 2014, 10:34:55 AM
I need a whiteboard...
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on March 24, 2014, 10:48:55 AM
Jim, White boards are very useful, you can't have big ideas on scruffy little bits of paper  :disappointed:

I normally hand draw out each of the parts on one before I start, to remind me what I am making and force me to think about the machining processes. Then I move over to using different colours to show additional information like DRO readings. Like with machining the beam each of the target depth measurements were written up and I always write up the coordinate readings for machining things like slots  ;). Unlike drawings you can limit the information to what you need to know at the time rather than have everything which can get confusing or difficult to find the measurement you are looking for.

I have three  :naughty: 4 ft boards spare at the moment, one mustn't say no when goodies need a new home  :hellno:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Heffalump on March 24, 2014, 11:10:23 AM
Ooh I like! I must admit it was hard to read my measurements on my scruffy paper last week from under a layer of swarf! I might have to find one from elsewhere in the factory...
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on March 24, 2014, 06:34:15 PM
The end of the beam was blued up and then the centre found and punched using an optical punch:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/IMG_6307.jpg)

Then I realised that someone wanted to play with me:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/IMG_6310.jpg)

 :ShakeHead:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on March 24, 2014, 06:43:58 PM
Try a keyed chuck, MT collet,  or clamp it to sexy's vertical table or a vertical slide and drill it with one of your lathes
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on March 24, 2014, 09:06:01 PM
Thanks Jason, a good few ideas for anyone who might get stuck. Of course on the Meddings you can rotate the head off the side of the table and clamp what ever you are drilling to the side of the table  ;) But did I ever mention I had a couple of pillar drills :naughty: Actually discounting the UPT and the mills only three and this is the largest:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/IMG_6311.jpg)

Donated to me by my builder for the princely sum of a packet of Jaffa cakes to go with as much tea as he could guzzle whilst eating the Jaffas  :LittleDevil: Ok so the over current contactor was duff, meaning it would only run for 30 secs but that has been replaced and it is all hunky dory again. Whilst I think of it is pillar drill has a rather unique vice on it:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/IMG_6312.jpg)

It provides really fine clamping. I did think of making a smaller version for my favourite man :mischief:

so with our centres in it is off to a lathe. Using marker pens the limit of the cut was marked on and slowly the square section turned round:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/IMG_6316.jpg)

then the round bits were started:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/IMG_6318.jpg)

they are not finished I want to let the metal cool down before I take the finishing cuts  ;) It is quiet a big beam, it would not have fitted on the Myford but it fits well on the Prazimat:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/IMG_6322.jpg)

I will finish those ends off tomorrow  :). Did you notice that I have reversed the tool post to let me get nearer the tailstock without the top slide needing to move far to the right?

Jo

Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Steamer5 on March 24, 2014, 09:12:28 PM
Hi Jo,
 What about fixing an angle plate to the table, vice to the angle plate so the jaws are nice & vertical, swing the drill head & table round so the beam hangs over the side of the bench, if you can....... Might be a bit hard with the drill press mounted on the ceiling :ROFL: don't you just love upside down pictures!

Oh well I see you got it sorted.......you sure your workshop is big enough for all those toys?
Had to think way outta left field when I needed to drill out the 6 studs from the blackhead of my boiler, the guy that built it had used steel, they did last quite a long time, last longer now they are stainless.

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on March 25, 2014, 07:39:56 AM
I thought you had a big one in the garage, just teasing us again ::)

Of course if you had done a fabricated one you could have just used the 4-jaw and put the bar through the lathe spindle like what I did :) and saved having to make all that swarf ;)

Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on March 25, 2014, 07:51:29 AM
 :o I had to look out the Superba drawings to check.. those are very wide washers you have stuck on there, the original Hanning drawings shows only 3.2mm on mine but yours are 8mm  :headscratch:

You have also got a diddly little oval hole in the middle. Is your perch pin really only 9.53mm? Mine is 14.3mm going into a tapered hole in the ball joint under the smoke box (I have attached a picture of a full sized pin). And  :o where is the slack for movement between your Top Perch plate and the Perch Pad.   

:embarassed: You know I treated the original Hanning drawings with the contempt they deserved and redesigned this whole area  ;D

And I of course am looking forward to trying to work out how to machine that ball joint :whoohoo:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: tangler on March 25, 2014, 09:08:27 AM
I see in Old Glory there's a pair of big 'uns for sale   >:D

Rod
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on March 25, 2014, 09:12:49 AM
Mine flanges are 6mm, Haining does not show any recess in the back of the hub to overlap the flange so thats why they need to be larger than his 1/8".

You need to remember I built that axle at least two years ago mostly to Hainings drawing, my revised drawing has a 7/16" slot that is also longer. Cotter through the bottom of the pivot pin will be lower than the plate so you get teh movement there in exactly the sam way as my Galloway cart pivots. Don't go by Hainings drawing as on the Superba the ball & socket don't allow for any articulation!!

The link I gave you to the Dutch boys site has a good way to do the ball and socket
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on March 25, 2014, 09:29:02 AM
Rod, bad boy  :slap:: the only way I am allowed one (two  ;D) of those is if I find a suitable fella with a passion for the important things in life :naughty: And to be honest last time I found the steering a little heavy :shrug:

Jason: The overlap at the back of the hub on the photo's I have looks very small... And this photos I have of the front beam clearly shows a larger oval hole  ;)

Jo

Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on March 25, 2014, 10:07:30 AM
Yes my slot needs to be longer, I have not updated the drawings since I went to see that Z7 at prestons, you can just make out the width of the slot in the bottom plate in this photo, it goes almost to the retaining nuts counterbore.

Also shows the gap at the bottom to allow movement
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on March 25, 2014, 09:11:56 PM
At this point I discovered my longest vernier only goes to 320mm  >:( not to be beaten I measured the length with the smaller height gauge  :naughty:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/IMG_6324.jpg)

Once the two ends were turned to diameter the fine adjustments across the beam could be measured with that little vernier  ;)

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/IMG_6325.jpg)

A bit late to set up the mill so I left that for tomorrow and started on the bearings, the piece of PH Bronze was 5mm over the combined length of the two bearings, so they were machined back to back:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/IMG_6329.jpg)

Then hacksawed apart and  :Doh: I had forgotten just how snatchy this stuff is so it had to be bored  ;)

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/IMG_6331.jpg)

One more to go.

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: sco on March 25, 2014, 09:32:31 PM
You must be feeling better as you seem to be back up to normal productivity levels  ;D

Simon.
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on March 26, 2014, 07:28:54 AM
Hi Simon, thanks, not totally yet I am picking easy bits that hopefully even I can't get wrong  :-\.

I have some much more  :whoohoo: bits to make but that is in our future.

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on March 26, 2014, 07:38:07 AM
Have you extended those bearings from your drawn ones jo as it looks like you have a lot of pin showing beyond the bearing and I thought you were tight on length?

Do parts like this really need measuring to 0.01mm?
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Stuart on March 26, 2014, 08:00:12 AM
Jo

Nice work as usual

You have learnt me a new trick  :cartwheel:

Use the tool post facing the tail stock instead of extending the quill , nice one

Or as we say purit on bacuds

Stuart
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on March 26, 2014, 08:19:04 AM
Have you extended those bearings from your drawn ones jo as it looks like you have a lot of pin showing beyond the bearing and I thought you were tight on length?

Do parts like this really need measuring to 0.01mm?

The beam is still over length by 4.5 mm, those bearings are turned at my drawings size, as you saw from my Diametric pdf the plates that pin the hub on are fairly deep due to them needing to stick out far enough for the pin to clear the hub so I am not cutting anything down just yet.

I can easily achieve 0.1mm using a vernier/height gauge but I would not look to achieve that level of accuracy with a ruler and if I wanted accuracy to 0.01 mm I would be using a micrometer. It is easier to take material off rather than put it back on so better safe than sorry  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on March 26, 2014, 09:17:11 AM
I did not get anything last night, is that the pdf you are refering to? could not open your later Cubify file last night. I think I said in an e-mail a couple of days ago that the bearing looked short and should go to the end of the hub but that may be an old drawing of yours that I am looking at, Ideally should be a flange at each end of the bearing like the full size

J
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on March 26, 2014, 09:23:47 AM
 :thinking: A second bearing with a second flange that might be an idea but there is not enough space in the hub to do that. I could make the retaining collar out of PH Bronze to reduce friction.

But you know my view of sitting all day watching a flywheel go round, half and hour and I am bored so I doubt it will ever know the meaning of getting hot :ROFL:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on March 26, 2014, 09:28:01 AM
Can you not cut a recess for the flange into the outer hub plate? This is mine, still work in progress so not totally correct
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on March 26, 2014, 09:37:22 AM
There is already a recess in the outer hub plate for the hub cap (1.2mm) and the retaining collar (3.2mm), leaving the rest of the 6.35mm as bearing surface.

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on March 28, 2014, 05:08:44 PM
I needed to cut the angles at 30 degrees, thankfully I had a square of the right angle:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/IMG_6336.jpg)

I also picked up a new toy  :naughty: which enabled me to check the angle once it was set up in the vice.

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/IMG_6337.jpg)

Then came lots of milling, which one bit is like another :shrug: The only possible interesting bit was the use of a large milling cutter which had had its corners rounded over to form the curve on the backs of the flange. So a large amount of swarf later and it is time to fit the hubs to the beam:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/IMG_6339.jpg)

But not tomorrow as I am being taken out  ;D

Jo

Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on March 28, 2014, 07:07:53 PM
Is it my eyes or does the central section look too long. I recon that on yours the perch plates should be 20" long which equates to 3.33" or 85mm on the model and they extend to just beyond where the axle thins down which you have at 117mm? The pdf you sent me looks shorter than the metal??

EDIT just measured your drawing and the middle should be 89mm long not 117 >:(

I did the same on mine made it to Hainings widths then had to machine about 3/4" off each side.

Bring it tomorrow and I'll bring mine
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on March 28, 2014, 07:26:14 PM
Just checked  :wallbang:  :wallbang: That was version 1 of the drawing I machined to. At least I still need to take metal off  :naughty: rather than try sticking it back on  :hellno:

If you want to see my bits you will have to come to the house  :mischief:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on March 28, 2014, 07:30:41 PM
I just came to teh same conclusion while you were typing that, its the one you drew in Augest thats correct not the previous February. At least you could round the internal corners now :ThumbsUp: its only a quick Rotary table job to make the perch plates match.

Just your beam will do
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on March 29, 2014, 08:47:48 PM
We had a look at the beam problem, the concern is that, yes the original was forged hence the curves but if the replacement starts using curves and the perch pads curves are not exact  :hellno: that there is a high probability of a dirt gap between that and the perch plate  which will cause rust  :o and the curve is only visible for 6.35mm of its height hidden down a gap between the two tool boxes  :thinking:

Still trying to decide if the rust pocket risk is too high :headscratch:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on March 30, 2014, 08:25:33 AM
that there is a high probability of a dirt gap between that and the perch plate  which will cause rust

They were never a good fit on the originals so if you create a rust trap you have done a proper job and got it just like the original.

Also if you don't round off at least the external corners of the axle then you will also have to have angular corners on the perch plates to keep a similar thickness upstand. Seems a shame to go to the trouble of redesigning every part of this engine to be like the original and then skimp on these parts just to make it easier to machine the top & bottom perch plates.

Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on March 30, 2014, 06:45:20 PM
 :toilet_claw: I got the original BB1 drawings out and put my beam alongside and found  :o it was too long.

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Wheels/IMG_6350.jpg)

Now the Hanning drawings that I started with are  :-\  :facepalm2:  :Doh: at times and I had forgotten that he had drawn the leading wheel built with the rims central on the hubs  :ShakeHead: As you can see from the drawing they are offset by 6.35mm. But more than that the entire beam is over length  :hellno: by 25mm  :( So my nice flanges will have to be turned off  :'(

I did have a little play with the curves in the centre. Not a nice thing to machine those curves it scaled down to needing a 34mm cutter and thankfully yesterday someone polished the last remains of the moths out of my purse by selling me this rather nice shell mill arbour which I just happened to have a 35mm shell for :naughty:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Wheels/IMG_6353.jpg)

I lined the cutter up with the line using a square, zeroed the DRO and then slowly proceeded to mill first the wrong side (climb milling  :Doh:) then the right of each end of the beam. That wrong side was  :o the cutter wanted to catch  :disappointed: I am now going to have to go and watch the race to charm my nerves before I decide how to proceed.

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on March 30, 2014, 06:58:10 PM
That looks better already, just as well I told you to look at that drawing.

You may also want to revisit your front spoke drawings and wheel assembly as your front wheels don't have any offset

J

PS do you want to know who won the race?  :mischief:

PPS there is a programme on BBC 4 at 7.00 pm all about old british motor bikes, another of your passions
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on March 30, 2014, 07:02:58 PM

PS do you want to know who won the race?  :mischief:


I have every confidence it was a handsome man driving a  :Love: car who is too young for me  :-\

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on March 30, 2014, 07:09:07 PM
I think he is taken, but you can always dream :lolb:
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Johnmcc69 on March 30, 2014, 07:23:00 PM
Hello Jo, where can plans for this engine be found?
You're doing a fine job.....

 John
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on March 30, 2014, 07:33:27 PM
Tyler Steam do the drawings but they will give you a "stand off scale" model and will need a lot of extra work to get a true representation which is what Jo has done.

http://darbysavage.blogspot.co.uk/p/fowler-bb1-ploughing-engine.html

The old copies of Model Engineer that covered the build of this engine also have the drawings

I have heard they are not teh best at customer service and would not like to use some of teh castings that they are now offering in aluminium when the patterns were probably designed for iron which is a more suitable material.

J
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Johnmcc69 on March 30, 2014, 07:46:50 PM
Thank you Jason. I would love to see the CAD models the both of you have recreated!
It's quite the project just doing that part of it.

 Who won the race? I won't tell Jo...  :stickpoke:
 John
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on March 30, 2014, 08:01:37 PM
The article in Model Engineer does not contain the Hanning Drawings  :disappointed:

And whilst I have an original set of blue prints, Tyler is now providing photocopies of these original drawings and I have been told they are very difficult to make out >:(

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on March 30, 2014, 08:11:02 PM
My mistake I was thinking of Superba and the 16nhp

Yes the original Hainings are bad enough - pencil on odd bits of tracing paper and then dyeline copied

J
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on March 30, 2014, 09:36:11 PM
John, If you can open 3D pdfs... this is what I am attempting to make at the moment  ;) and it is nothing like what the original Hanning drawings showed  :hellno:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Johnmcc69 on March 31, 2014, 02:21:49 PM
Thank you Jo, but unfortunately I cannot view 3D PDF's.
 Apparently, Android doesn't support it. :(

 John
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: mikemill on March 31, 2014, 02:32:13 PM
Jo
I opened your pdf and found a very interesting 3D drawing, what program did you use to create it?

Thanks Mike
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Heffalump on March 31, 2014, 02:32:52 PM
I don't know if this is Kosher - but I opened it and screenshotted, thought it might be of help to John
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Heffalump on March 31, 2014, 02:33:43 PM
And NO, I'm NOT browsing the forum at work... :D
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on March 31, 2014, 02:35:56 PM
 :lolb: :lolb: I am  ;)

Mike: that is a Diametric pdf printed from the Alibre/Cubify CAD package.

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Johnmcc69 on March 31, 2014, 02:41:27 PM
Thanks Heffalump, that I can see. Jo, that's some fine modeling!

 John
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on March 31, 2014, 04:46:22 PM
This is the one for my slightly larger engine which also shows the brackets for the steering chains and the perch bracket that fits to the smokebox.
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Heffalump on March 31, 2014, 04:55:15 PM
how big, in overall size are these models going to be? I'm not sure what Jo's 2" refers to? Thanks (: (noob alert)
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on March 31, 2014, 05:32:14 PM
2" to the foot, so 1/6th scale. = Too big to woman handle I need a  :naughty: :lolb:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on March 31, 2014, 05:59:34 PM
Mine will be 50" long and Jo's 46"
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Heffalump on April 01, 2014, 09:36:52 AM
Blimey!
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 01, 2014, 10:01:09 AM
Lets just say I won't be standing this engine on the Dining room table  :lolb:

It already has its position allocated on the Dining room floor  :naughty:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on April 01, 2014, 04:50:15 PM
Might be a bit easier to get through the doorways now Jo :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 01, 2014, 09:05:11 PM
 :'( Problems  :(

The beam was too wide I needed to reduce it from 405mm wide to 370mm (-17.5mm) and the over flange width to 275mm from 304mm (-14.8mm). So I started by turning off the 14.8mm and my nice flanges  :'(

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/IMG_6354.jpg)

Then I discovered I didn't have a fixed steady that went small enough on the Prazimat and the Myford was too short  :( :

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/IMG_6355.jpg)

So it ended up in the Colchester four jaw supported by a centre to take the 17.5mm off:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/IMG_6358.jpg)

Having turned down the first end I realised  :toilet_claw: that if I put a 5mm flange on the end of the shaft the end was too short for my replacement flanges and the bearing and the required extra for the pinning  :hammerbash: So I started toying with ideas of how to extend the shaft again  :shrug:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/IMG_6357.jpg)

I wandered round and round the workshop something (other than my  :censored: measurements) was not right..  :stickpoke:

Why had I taken 17.5mm off the ends and only 14.8mm off the main beam by the shaft  :headscratch: There was a slight possibility that I had got that 14.8mm measurement wrong and it actually should have been 19.05mm  :noidea: There was an off chance.... best sleep on it  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: sco on April 01, 2014, 09:08:24 PM
Bggr - I hate it when that kind of thing happens - you get a measurement in your head and are sure it's right.  Then after the material has been removed the doubt sets in...

Sure you will come up smelling of roses though!

Simon.
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 01, 2014, 09:15:44 PM
Thanks Simon  :ThumbsUp:,

So that was last night and as you might have noticed I did not post anything :slap: I didn't feel up to it   :-[

Another day a fresh mind and I did my numbers again  :happyreader: the 19mm was the correct distance I should have taken down to allow separate flanges to be added  :whoohoo: So back between centres remove the offending extra (allowing for a press fit for the flanges) measure and check yes 265mm between backs of flanges. Make up a couple of flanges and apply a bit of encouragement to fit them:

 (http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/IMG_6359.jpg)

They are not going anywhere  :naughty: So my corrected drawing has a lot of corrections:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/IMG_6362.jpg)

But I still have a front axle beam and its bits are beginning to fit together

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/IMG_6361.jpg)

and I took a couple of bits of plate to size for the next little bit  :pinkelephant:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on April 02, 2014, 07:34:31 AM
Are your new flanges a smaller dia? The old ones were larger than the across corners size, these look less
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 02, 2014, 07:44:33 AM
No they are also 25.4mm diameter, maybe the JB Weld forming the fillet :naughty: is making it look smaller. I have a bit of fettling to do to knock the sharp corners off the beam and make it more like a forging so they might be slightly proud at the moment.

Hypotenuse on the beam measures = 27.319  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on April 02, 2014, 04:45:30 PM
Ah, thats Hainings 7/8" beam rather than the 3/4" that the original 4.5" scales to making them look small.

J
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 02, 2014, 09:23:20 PM
The inside of the perch plates need to be cut out to go around the beam, so a quick bit of number crunching to find the centres of the curves and the correct profiles to let the DRO radius function take the strain  :naughty: :

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/IMG_6369.jpg)

It won't fit just yet as I need to finish profiling the outside curves of the beam:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/IMG_6370.jpg)

Another to go  ;).

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: ths on April 03, 2014, 09:19:23 AM
I like the look of what you're doing there, looking forward to seeing the fit, which will doubtlessly be impeccable.

Hugh.
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: steamer on April 03, 2014, 09:50:00 AM
That's a really nice feature on a DRO..  Parts look great!

We still need the popcorn eating emoticon....... 8)
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 03, 2014, 10:41:34 AM
That's a really nice feature on a DRO..

It is Dave but the Chin-lese instructions do make a pig's ear out of explaining it to you. I think the one of the most confusing matters is what type of cut you are going to make, if you look at the illustration:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/Stothert%20and%20Pitt/IMG_3937.jpg)

It is easy to confuse the top row and the bottom row, with cutting an internal or external curve  :rant: The curve type has nothing to do with that  :disappointed: You have to ignore the fact that they have swapped over the tool position and just look at the direction of the arc: the start and end position  ;) If you are cutting from the inside or the outside of the curve is set later when you either add or subtract the cutter width from the diameter.

Each of those outside curves are made up of 45 separate hand entered coordinates, providing a 0.5mm increment between cuts. After 180 cuts it is easy to mix up your left hand and your right hand and cut into the metal for the first move rather than into the gash... so something you do in short bursts.

I will be graduating up to Z plane arcs shortly :naughty:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: kvom on April 03, 2014, 01:28:55 PM
Time for a CNC mill.   :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 03, 2014, 01:46:58 PM
Time for a CNC mill.   :ThumbsUp:

 :o

I'm a hands on type of girl  :naughty:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 03, 2014, 06:21:53 PM
We still need the popcorn eating emoticon....... 8)

Just for you Dave:  :popcorn:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 05, 2014, 04:34:14 PM
When I chose the metal for the perch pad I used a piece of 10mm as I did not have a bit of 19mm big enough, so it was time to add a bit. A second piece was taken to size and two holes drilled through for locating the plates together:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/IMG_6380.jpg)

Heat applied, gently tapped to make sure it went down firmly  ;) then dipped in the pickle tank long enough for it to stop fizzing and rinsed in water, and this is what it looked like:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/IMG_6381.jpg)

Then came problems  :facepalm: I could not get the DRO to start working  :wallbang: I programmed it and all it came up with was this:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/IMG_6383.jpg)

The chin-lese did not explain that this screen is correct  >:( and that it would not move until you started dropping the Z axis. Well it would have but the types of curves are swopped over so every time I dropped the head the display was the same  :rant: Finally I made the mistake of raising the head higher than the start point and the figures started moving. So finally I corrected the programmed type:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/IMG_6389.jpg)

And spent what seemed a long time winding the table too and fro  :insane: which gave me the first side:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/IMG_6385.jpg)

As I finished the second I realised that I didn't have a sharp 12.7mm slot drill and it was time to do something about it  :-\ no excuses I had to make the missing bits to enable me to sharpen end mills on the Union:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/IMG_6386.jpg)

No  :ShakeHead: a job for tomorrow.

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on April 05, 2014, 04:40:58 PM
I thought a bit of that 20mm flat rust that you had in teh cabin would have done for those parts that are 3/4" thick, looking good though.

J
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 07, 2014, 07:46:43 AM
Well it took all day (and a couple of false starts  :facepalm:) but I now have all the attachments for the Union cutter grinder to sharpen my slot drills/ end mills and I am most of the way through them so I hope to be back making swarf this evening  :whoohoo: That is unless I watch the recorded race  :noidea: 

Which is more important making swarf or watching F1  :-\ and then there is that set of castings on the dining table that has attracted my attention again  :???: Maybe a quick stud would make me feel better  ;).

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Heffalump on April 07, 2014, 08:52:53 AM
Don't get me started on F1... But a recorded race will still be recorded later, the swarf sprites get hungry quickly! :D
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on April 07, 2014, 04:50:53 PM
The longer you leave it the greater the chance of somebody saying who won and spoiling it for you, as I said it was a good race and worth watching.

J
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 07, 2014, 05:19:48 PM
No good :wallbang: I'm having to have a TV dinner so I can see some of it  :-\

.. I don't like doing this it reminds me of life before freedom  :( but I need my swarf fix.... so it will only be part of the race before my desires get too great and I lose  :embarassed:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Stilldrillin on April 07, 2014, 07:44:52 PM
Just, don't miss the final 10 laps, Jo.......  :o

David D
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 07, 2014, 08:13:53 PM
 :headscratch: But that might mean I have to stop making swarf early and won't have time to write up what I have been doing :facepalm2:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on April 07, 2014, 08:15:22 PM
Plenty of time to do the write up while you are busy at work tomorrow ;)
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 07, 2014, 08:56:39 PM
So a simple set of attachments for the cutter grinder:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/Workshops_and_tools/IMG_6398.jpg)

I preferred the cutter mounted in a collet but this fitting works  :shrug: and I have sharpened all of these  ;D

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/Workshops_and_tools/IMG_6394.jpg)

So back to some real swarf making. The mounting bolt holes were counterbored and the holes drilled. You will notice I am still preferring to use the DA collets rather than a drill chuck because it saves loosing head height:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Wheels/IMG_6399.jpg)

The slot was first cut with a slot drill whilst parallel:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Wheels/IMG_6400.jpg)

Then the end mill fitted and it was angled over to the required 30 degrees to taper the slot:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Wheels/IMG_6401.jpg)

I started the side profiling:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Wheels/IMG_6402.jpg)

But this was when someone told me I needed to see the last 10 laps of the race and I am only on lap 28 so it is time for a beer and a bit of indulgence  :embarassed:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: smfr on April 07, 2014, 09:38:12 PM
That's a lot of cutters, Jo! Good to see you back on the build.

Simon
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: sco on April 07, 2014, 10:10:45 PM
The last 10 laps are the best - Go Lewis - go Nico!  ;D

Simon.
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 08, 2014, 07:58:54 AM
That was good :embarassed:

And it doesn't look like I am going to be distracted from swarf making for at least two weeks. Hopefully someone else can post some pictures from the Basingstoke show that is happening this coming weekend.

In the meantime  :whoohoo:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: sco on April 08, 2014, 08:20:19 AM
It's China this weekend - Go Nico - go Lewis  ;D

Simon.
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 08, 2014, 08:25:59 AM
 :o I thought the teams had two weeks break. Looks like I need to stock up on some more beers and cider :naughty:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: sco on April 08, 2014, 08:29:58 AM
Oops you are right not China this w/e but Easter w/e.   :-[
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Heffalump on April 08, 2014, 08:40:19 AM
Basingstoke show? What kind of show?
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 08, 2014, 08:52:44 AM
Model Traction Engine, with some stationary engines: http://www.basingstoke-dmes.co.uk/Traction_Engine_Rally.html We are not sure how manymodel stationary engines will be there as they do not have the main hall this year.

This was last year: http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php?topic=1799.msg26463#msg26463

It is free to get in  :naughty:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Stuart on April 08, 2014, 09:40:27 AM
Jo

OT
In your pic of the T and C I can see you use a finger to control the rotation of the EM , how do you control the length way movement,

As you have seen I have a quorn and I use a finger in the same way with the cutter in a collet and then use the collet holder to move it in and out

Stuart
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 08, 2014, 09:57:13 AM
Hi Stuart, I think all TC use a "click" to position the cutting edge of the tool and the direction of the grinding wheel pushes the tool against the click. The length is set by adjusting how much that dowel sticks out behind the cutter: the one secured by the Allen key in the photo, no point in removing it as it needs adjusting for each cutter size.

The click being used here is a piece of an old rule which has just the right amount of spring  ;), I have also known people use bits off a mechanical hacksaw but handsaw blades are a bit too weak  :disappointed:.

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Stuart on April 08, 2014, 10:15:29 AM
Jo

Thanks for the info it's basically the same method as I use, I thought you had a cunning method that I could pinch  :happyreader:

That BB1. Is going to be a big girl or is it a fella or do traction engine take on the female gender as do loco,s

I do like reading your post as you often apply a different slant on to your methods very instructive

Stuart
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 08, 2014, 10:53:37 AM
That BB1. Is going to be a big girl or is it a fella or do traction engine take on the female gender as do loco,s

Engines are always females: despite all their bad habits you can only love them and want one of your own :embarassed:

you often apply a different slant on to your methods very instructive

You mean my haphazard techniques sometimes produce what I hoped for  :lolb:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on April 08, 2014, 11:46:34 AM
Jo I'm :popcorn: and following along. I've got to try that contour function on my DRO sometimes. Don't be trying to steal my "haphazard machining techniques" now, that's my MO. :LittleDevil:

Whiskey
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Don1966 on April 08, 2014, 05:18:17 PM
Hi Jo, I have been following along  :popcorn: but can't help much but give you moral support. But don't be picking up Eric's bad habits.  :lolb:

Don
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 08, 2014, 09:00:10 PM
Thanks Guys for looking in :ThumbsUp: It can get lonely in the shed.

A bit more curving, this time on the ends:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Wheels/IMG_6404.jpg)

So this is another XY axis curve being cut with the help of the DRO radius function. The trick again is to find the centre of the curve relative to the datum of the piece (centre). Then position the tool so that it the radius plus half the diameter of the cutter out from the centre of the curve and then follow round for 54 co-ordinates  :insane::

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Wheels/IMG_6405.jpg)

As the evening got later the chance,  :facepalm2: ok the number, of miss twiddles of the handles increased so I had to abandon it for this evening half way through the upper plate.

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Wheels/IMG_6406.jpg)

The Perch plate is now ready for a prime but the temperature is still too low for the paint to go off correctly  :-\ once it warms up I will be back on the S&P as that needs some painting then I will be able to finish her off  :whoohoo:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Heffalump on April 09, 2014, 08:26:14 AM
What kind of paint is it you're using Jo? What temperature does it need?
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: smfr on April 09, 2014, 03:43:56 PM
Good progress, Jo! I know what you mean about the number of wrong twiddles of the handles; I seem to make most of my mistakes late on Sunday evenings when a) I'm tired, and b) I'm in a rush to get things finished. Sometimes it's better to just close down the workshop when you're ahead!

Simon
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: tvoght on April 09, 2014, 03:53:31 PM
Great work Jo. I do love the DRO contour function.

I cut quite a few arcs in the XZ or YZ plane using program-generated step-off tables before I realized the contour function would work just as well in the vertical plane using a ball-end mill!

Keep up the good work (building and documenting).

--Tim
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Heffalump on April 09, 2014, 04:14:32 PM
? would create a hemisphere when coupled with a rotary table?
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 09, 2014, 04:36:18 PM
Jim, I will be using best aerosol car spray paints from the auto factors  ;) But it is acrylic so it doesn't dry well under 15 degrees  :ShakeHead:


Strangely enough the upper plate the "Forecarriage socket" goes with the "Forecarriage ball" so I am due to be machining a ball and socket shortly. I still need to decide how  :whoohoo:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 09, 2014, 08:15:47 PM
Finally the bottom perch plate and the beginnings of the Forecarriage socket could be fitted on to the axle.
I found that the slot in the perch plate was too narrow, so having taken off the required 0.1mm on the over width side  ;D:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Wheels/IMG_6408.jpg)

So on to the next bit the socket itself. The challenge is to cut a 80mm diameter socket:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Wheels/IMG_6411.jpg)

In this piece of steel that I have just taken down to diameter:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Wheels/IMG_6412.jpg)

Not a job to start later in the evening  :ShakeHead:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on April 09, 2014, 08:21:56 PM
Have you modified your design Jo? Your drawing that I have has it as a 2" bar with 81mm radius to the socket.

J
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 09, 2014, 08:32:06 PM
 ;) yep.

I would send you the drawings  :shrug:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: tangler on April 09, 2014, 08:50:13 PM


So on to the next bit the socket itself. The challenge is to cut a 80mm diameter socket:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Wheels/IMG_6411.jpg)

In this piece of steel that I have just taken down to diameter:


Jo

Would this help?  Had for it decades, it was a gift - never used it.  I assume it's for cutting internal spheres.

(http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m180/rod_sally/thingy_zpsa49c490c.jpg)

I forgot to put a scale against it.  The main bar is 1" high

Rod
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 10, 2014, 07:57:33 AM
That's the sort of gadget I will need  :D

I have been toying  :noidea: with the idea of either using my ball turning attachment in reverse or maybe putting a rotary table on the lathe bed and mounting a tool post on that. It will be interesting to see what I come up with, even I don't know how I am going to do it yet  :LittleDevil:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on April 10, 2014, 10:31:35 AM
Jo could you mount it to a stub arbor on your horizontal mill and then use the rotary table method on that much like the Dutch guys. I think with a mod to the tool holder I could do it with my Bedair type ball turner, it will alredy cut concave but there is not enough clearance under the tool to do it on the face.

I did cut a concave before by loosening the topslide slightly and pivoting that, think it may have been for the Minnie smokebox door
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Steamer5 on April 10, 2014, 10:36:57 AM
Hi Jo,
 Give the moths a shock & release a few ! :stir:

This guys got just what you need

http://dreamcutter.com/

Cheers Kerrin

PS loving the fab work, giving me ideas for frame pivot stretches for the Garratt
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Stuart on April 10, 2014, 10:40:09 AM
Jo

Why not make a tracing tool for your lathe I made one for my Myford

You need a profile clamped to the bed ,a roller to run on it , a car valve spring to hold the carage on to the profile

Apply the cut with the compound , and wind the feed in

I will do a crap o cad for you later when the del man has been ( I blame you for this no snap for me next month ) one of those cog tool posts do dahs , hope it ok as it's not a new one

Stuart
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 10, 2014, 10:54:36 AM
Why not make a tracing tool for your lathe I made one for my Myford

You need a profile clamped to the bed ,a roller to run on it , a car valve spring to hold the carage on to the profile

Apply the cut with the compound , and wind the feed in

I might have exactly that little gadget  :embarassed:, I was planning to use it on the tee bar handles for the UPT  :naughty:

It is a bit small to fit on the Colchester  :Jester:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Stuart on April 10, 2014, 10:57:12 AM
Jo

Then make a bigger one

That's sounds like the panto song about a hole in a bucket :hammerbash:


Stuart
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Stuart on April 10, 2014, 03:28:42 PM
for what its worth

(http://i905.photobucket.com/albums/ac253/lordedmond/3acb9660-1a20-414d-a18e-dd931cf79771.jpg) (http://s905.photobucket.com/user/lordedmond/media/3acb9660-1a20-414d-a18e-dd931cf79771.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Pete49 on April 11, 2014, 04:47:48 AM
Hi Jo,
 Give the moths a shock & release a few ! :stir:
This guys got just what you need
http://dreamcutter.com/
Cheers Kerrin
PS loving the fab work, giving me ideas for frame pivot stretches for the Garratt

Don't look Jo it will give you a big shock as well as the moths.....I'm still trying to find my heart ...it jumped out and ran :lolb:
Pete

No moths were harmed in this message :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 11, 2014, 07:07:39 AM
I am safe Pete I don't own a mini lathe and have no plans to add one to the collection  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 11, 2014, 05:22:31 PM
 :Director: This should have been easy  :-\

Failure 1: I tried using the Mill DRO mill function to plot the curve out. Forgetting that the Lathe DRO measured diameter not radius and got 5mm down the bit of steel before I realised my ball was inadequate for the job in hand  :rant:

Not even an attempt 2: I tried downloading Marv's radi calculation program only to find it does not run on a 64 bit computer  :stickpoke:

Attempt 3: I found another excel spreadsheet plotted it all out using Alibre  :) and thought I had it but  :( I had again forgotten that diameter/radius function on the Lathe DRO  :facepalm: I only used up another 1mm on the length.

Last one 4: I doubled all the X axis measurements to get diameters not radi  ;D

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Wheels/IMG_6414.jpg)

And with 2mm to spare  :pinkelephant::

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Wheels/IMG_6416.jpg)

I feel the need to give it a gentle rub :mischief: before I part it off and start its socket. Still have not decided how to do the socket  :thinking:

Jo

Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 11, 2014, 05:32:12 PM
Not even an attempt 2: I tried downloading Marv's radi calculation program only to find it does not run on a 64 bit computer

DOSBOX might help you there. I've used it to run a number of ancient  ;D programs.
Not sure or remember if you need to run in Virtual XP mode. I didn't on my Vista. Haven't tried on my Windows 7.

It's free.
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 11, 2014, 05:35:58 PM
 :shrug: I'm running Windows 8.1. I have no idea on how to get it to revert to working like a real computer it has a mind of its own  :killcomputer:

I was hoping that Marv might think of providing 64 bit versions of his software on his site ;) or standard spreadsheet versions

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: chucketn on April 11, 2014, 05:50:46 PM
Jo, I have asked Marve about that and he's not interested in updating. I have downloaded and run his brograms under 64 bit Windows 7 using the Dos Box program. I am a retired computer tech and very familiar with dos and even some basic programing, but prefer to do things in Excel now. Care to share your Excel spreadsheet or the link?

Chuck
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on April 11, 2014, 05:54:44 PM
Jo, was that not meant to be concave rather than Convex? or have you decided to do the top part first as a fabrication rather than from solid.

You could have just selected radius on the DRO rather than doubling all the measurements, its a lot less buttons to press.

J
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 11, 2014, 06:32:40 PM
Care to share your Excel spreadsheet or the link?

Chuck

Chuck: the spreadsheet is good but has its limitations so I was going to have a little hack re-write  ;)

Jason That's the ball still attached to what is going to be the socket as it gave me something to hold in the chuck  :naughty: I could have used a much bigger piece of metal, made much more swarf and had less than 6mm to hold it on in a 4 jaw chuck. The Forecarriage ball only requires those two ears silver soldered on and this piece of steel was just the right size  :shrug: so why not use it? And of course I can now use the socket to hold the piece for the next job  :LittleDevil:

No buttons at all to press: I printed out the measurements from the spreadsheet as Diameters not radi. ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: kvom on April 11, 2014, 08:09:01 PM
Do the socket on the mill with a rotab and a ball mill.  You just need to do some trig or CAD to figure out the depths and radii.  Roughing can be done with  normal endmills.

For CAD, I'd do the following steps:

1) draw the profile of the socket
2) now draw another curve with the same center but radius shorter by the radius of the ball mill to be used.
3) Now draw either vertical lines or radius lines separated by the distance for each pass.
4) The points where these lines cross the ball mill path are the coordinates to be approached when milling.  Use the CAD's dimension facility to determine those points' coords.
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Alan Haisley on April 11, 2014, 08:54:58 PM
Perhaps a flycutter with a tool ground to take a horizontal rather than angled cut. Set the cutter to match the radius of the socket. Mount the socket material in a chuck mounted on a vertical rotary table.
Move the cutter in a bit at a time and at each setting rotate the table 180 degrees.
The only challenge to this is getting the flycutter radius set. Possibly a template would work.

Alan
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 13, 2014, 11:18:34 AM
The ball requires to have a taper in the centre and to get both it and the perch pin the same angle they needed to be done at the same lathe setting. So pin first ;). The taper was set up by using feeler gauges to give me the required 0.8mm after 17.5mm:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Wheels/IMG_6418.jpg)

As normal I used marker pen on the work item to see the taper appearing and to know when it was complete  :naughty::

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Wheels/IMG_6419.jpg)

The marker pen also showed when the die reached the bottom of the taper:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Wheels/IMG_6420.jpg)

With the taper done it was time to mount up the ball and cut the taper. You will notice that the tool is mounted upside down. This is because this is being cut on the rear face, not the front.

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Wheels/IMG_6422.jpg)

Check it fits:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Wheels/IMG_6423.jpg)

I also scribbled a note to myself on the perch pin that the thread is 1/2" * 26 TPI  :-\ that is going to be burnt off in a while when the end gets silver soldered on.

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: smfr on April 13, 2014, 04:17:30 PM
Ooh, I like the use of the feeler gauge to set the taper; mentally filing that away for later use.  :ThumbsUp:

Simon
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 13, 2014, 04:22:19 PM
The taper was set up by using feeler gauges to give me the required 0.8mm after 17.5mm:

What was the process?

I can't mentally file like Simon. That cabinet is more like a bin.
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 13, 2014, 04:40:03 PM
Thanks for looking in :ThumbsUp:

Zee: You get the tool to just scrape the bar at the end then using the top slide wind to the end of the taper. Measure the gap between the tool and the work piece. I needed to go from 12.7mm up to 14.3mm so I needed a gap at the far end of 0.8mm. Once the feeler gauges just fit lock everything up  ;)

A bit more swarf  :naughty::

When I cut the ball I had to set the tool up to follow a radius of 45mm, that's the radius of the work plus half the tool diameter. Now I want to cut the inside so, don't do what I first did and use the same measurements in reverse  :ShakeHead: The tool needs to follow a curve of 35mm radius, that's the radius of the work minus half the tool diameter:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Wheels/IMG_6436.jpg)

To get a 10mm diameter tool that had the clearance like a boring bar I used a ball end cutter. Carefully mounted so the cutting edge was horizontal:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Wheels/IMG_6426.jpg)

I also angled the tool holder to about 30 degrees so that I was cutting on the side rather than the tip of the ball cutter as there is more cutting surface there. As I cut again I used my marker pen so I could see what was happening:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Wheels/IMG_6427.jpg)

In the end a socket to go with my ball:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Wheels/IMG_6428.jpg)

To clean it up I used the dremel on the inside face:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Wheels/IMG_6431.jpg)

I tried the fit but the blue didn't shown anything it seems good, on the full sized engines the fit was achieved by throwing some sand into the grease and let it wear in :shrug:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Wheels/IMG_6432.jpg)

Still a bit more to go but the parts are appearing:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Wheels/IMG_6435.jpg)

Hopefully I can finish those tomorrow as I am on holiday :whoohoo:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: kvom on April 13, 2014, 04:45:15 PM
The taper was set up by using feeler gauges to give me the required 0.8mm after 17.5mm:

What was the process?

I can't mentally file like Simon. That cabinet is more like a bin.

Start with the tool against the work (or against a feeler with known thickness), then move top slide left for the length of the taper and check the resulting separation.  Would be the same idea if using a taper attachment w/ carriage.  I do the same with my lathe's taper attachment easily given that there's a 2-axis DRO available.   I've also see people set the top slide angle using an angle block where the geometry of the tool post allows.

If the ball and pin are cut with the same setting, I'm not sure that super precision is needed since any taper would match.
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 14, 2014, 04:33:10 PM
To fit the socket on the plate it needed a slot cut in the back so first find the centre:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Wheels/IMG_6441.jpg)

Then using a delicate little end mill carefully cut the slot  :naughty:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Wheels/IMG_6442.jpg)

The socket has reinforcing pieces so slots were cut in the plate to take these:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Wheels/IMG_6443.jpg)

Then using the plate to square up the socket:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Wheels/IMG_6444.jpg)

Similar slots were cut on the socket:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Wheels/IMG_6445.jpg)

Which gave me a set of pieces ready for silver soldering together

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Wheels/IMG_6446.jpg)

As normal minimal flux and silver solder. I don't want to have to spend ages cleaning it up  :hellno:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Wheels/IMG_6447.jpg)

Whilst that was cooling off, I picked up the perch pin, now this needs a 4mm wide 9.53mm deep slot in it. The easiest way is to mill the slot:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Wheels/IMG_6449.jpg)

Then silver solder on a suitable piece from the short end container, and turn to size:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Wheels/IMG_6450.jpg)

I seem to have a reasonable gap for the washer left:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Wheels/IMG_6451.jpg)

Now do I go out to play again after dinner and do the ball  :whoohoo:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Tjark on April 14, 2014, 07:23:34 PM
Jo, what a great job to get the concave form.
Maybe you need one off this;


    Tjark.
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Kim on April 14, 2014, 08:30:40 PM
Quite nice fabrication work there Jo!  I haven't posted on your thread much, but I'm enjoying watching and learning.  :popcorn:
Excellent work, as always  :ThumbsUp:
Kim
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 15, 2014, 07:21:08 AM
Tjark: I can always find a home for a new tool  :naughty:

Hi Guys, thanks for dropping in, we are nearly to the end of this little bit :) then I have painting  :disappointed: and another engine asking for my attention  :whoohoo:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 15, 2014, 12:09:37 PM
The ball has had four of its sides milled square but on two of them the ball's curve has been left, this is where the "ears" are going to go:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Wheels/IMG_6462.jpg)

A bit of silver soldering later and they are attached.

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Wheels/IMG_6463.jpg)

Then get that delicate  :naughty: little slot drill out and bring the back to the correct thickness and those ears:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Wheels/IMG_6464.jpg)

Then turn over and counter bore/drill for the four mounting bolts:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Wheels/IMG_6466.jpg)

Notice I am using a Autolock chuck, this has the advantage of providing positive positioning for the milling cutter as it holds the back with a point. I can set my DA collets up to do the same but ER collets won't do this for you  :disappointed:

 :headscratch: Not sure how I am supposed to get at the hex heads down those holes, I might use cap heads  :hellno:  :-X So one assembly complete and you can see how much movement the ball joint can provide  ;D:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Wheels/IMG_6467.jpg)

And now for something entirely different  :whoohoo:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on April 15, 2014, 01:30:52 PM
Did they not use studs tapped into the top of the ball rather than bolts?
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 15, 2014, 01:33:48 PM
Did they not use studs tapped into the top of the ball rather than bolts?

Not in that cross section you sent me  ;).

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Mosey on April 15, 2014, 03:19:43 PM
JO,
I looked up at the masthead and didn't see anything suggesting we are limited to stationary engines, so that seems to be an unnecessary concern. Please show us your project as it goes along, bumps and stumbles as well as the great stuff you are so well known for. Don't leave anything out.
I'll be watching  and learning as you go.
Mosey
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Alan Haisley on April 15, 2014, 05:40:31 PM
Jo,

In #219, picture 7 you do an interesting fabrication. Silver solder on the horizontal - even near horizontal - is easy to understand. How did you do the verticals though?

Alan
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 15, 2014, 05:47:37 PM
With a pokey stick of silver solder in a piece of copper tube to stop the solder melting before I want it to ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Tjark on April 15, 2014, 08:28:07 PM
Hello Jo,

I am a tool addict ( I think as you are) sometimes you find some interesting tools.
But deep respect the way you have made the fore carriage ball and socket for this beautiful project.

   Tjark.
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 15, 2014, 09:39:37 PM
Thanks Tjark  :ThumbsUp:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Alan Haisley on April 16, 2014, 03:49:39 PM
Did they not use studs tapped into the top of the ball rather than bolts?

Not in that cross section you sent me  ;).

Jo

 :headscratch: This looks like they must have cast hex countersinks to hold the bolts.  :headscratch:

Alan
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 16, 2014, 04:44:17 PM
Mine will have 2BA Cap screws  ;) Don't tell anyone  :LittleDevil:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 17, 2014, 09:32:52 PM
Looks like I have been saved, I thought she was on hold due to lack of funds  :'( but someone has kindly donated some dog ends to enable me to make the hornplates/hornbrackets  ;D.

This could be take some :headscratch: about

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on April 18, 2014, 07:33:22 AM
Is that the same person who you took the last of your funds to to help build the casting mountain under your bed :-\ and the tool mountain in your workshop :-\

Can't see the point in buying all these tools if you can't afford the materials to make anything :shrug:

You must have enough bits laying around to be able to do the perch bracket, washer, pin steering chain brackets etc. And the smokebox door fittings could be done until you get the rolling sorted.

J
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 18, 2014, 11:20:18 AM
You are right Jason there are other little bits I could do with my bits of come in handys. But I won't be placing the large order for the rolled steel/pressings/water jetting or the next set of castings this side of the boiler, which is the next big :o expenditure on this engine and final payment/delivery of that is only 5 months away :whoohoo:


The Hornplates and brackets give me something to hang the crank and all those  :Love: gears that I have to make on :naughty: 

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on April 18, 2014, 11:47:17 AM
And then find your boiler is a bit off and have to alter all your shaft lengths :ShakeHead:
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 18, 2014, 12:22:02 PM
 :ROFL: You have great expectations on the speed of this build: I can see the hornbrackets taking over a month.

Then there is the S&P and the Double Tangye to finish for Guildford 10 weeks away, not forgetting the show preparation  :shrug:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on April 18, 2014, 01:25:46 PM
What about the cross compound and R&B??

Only Ten weeks away, I best go back down to the workshop and get that Monitor finished :embarassed:
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 18, 2014, 03:11:43 PM
I cannot lift the Cross Compound so until I find a fella  :slap: she is not going.

We will be  :o running the R&B, so I have been told  :headscratch:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 19, 2014, 09:53:16 AM
The perch pin was still missing its nut, I looked around for a suitable piece of hex and had nothing the 19mm A/F I wanted. I did have a rusty piece just over 21mm A/F. Now making hex out of hex is not good practise  :ThumbsDown:, it is better to use round  :ThumbsUp: But I like to recycle, so to take it down to size I could have mounted it in a vise:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Wheels/IMG_6508.jpg)

The problem with this is that whilst you can mill three sides at one depth of cut you then have to put the next depth of cut for the other three sides and there is a high chance it will not be identical or the piece of hex might not be flat on one side  :shrug: So much better to mill hexes in a dividing head, which will rotate the work about the centre line so every face will be the same depth of cut and the result will be a true hex. The advantage of round is of course you don't have to worry if your dividing head holds the flat of the hex horizontal to start with, thankfully mine does:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Wheels/IMG_6509.jpg)

Armed with the hex it is then a simple job of drilling and tapping:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Wheels/IMG_6510.jpg)

Not forgetting the taper on the top edge of the nut, and I normally take the sharp edge of the bottom but not enough to notice  ;) So the pin has its nut:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Wheels/IMG_6511.jpg)

That was not what I was supposed to be doing this morning  :ShakeHead: but it has got rid of another item of the jobs list. Now the sun is out  :whoohoo:

Jo



Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on April 19, 2014, 10:17:28 AM
Great fabrication and machining Jo. The paint looks good, is that just a primer? I'm still  :popcorn: and watching. BTW nice nuts :LittleDevil:

Whiskey
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: bronson on April 19, 2014, 12:56:57 PM
Very interesting thread. Great machined parts, looks great can't wait to see the finished product. Very nice work. Bronson
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Don1966 on April 19, 2014, 03:38:22 PM
 :popcorn: Man your making those parts look easy Jo. That is some great fabrication girl, keep it up I like.......... :NotWorthy:

 :DrinkPint:
Don
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 19, 2014, 04:45:41 PM
Pleased you are enjoying it guys  ;D

Life is just about to get a little tricky  :Doh: I need to make the hornbrackets. Yes a supplier does "some" but the second shaft is in the wrong place and they are made of aluminium  :hellno: So mine are going to be steel fabrications. To give you an idea of the challenge I have some for another model ploughing engine that I am currently holding in ransom for my New Holland casting set which  :o were "borrowed"

So in turn the L/H hornbracket outside and inside, then  :headscratch: I am confused over this one it neither matches the centre bearing bracket or the R/H hornbracket. It says superba on it but I'm not convinced  :noidea: But its ok for what I need it for, to give me ideas

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on April 19, 2014, 05:05:43 PM
It matches the R/H bracket on my drawings, the centre bracket is much smaller, you can just see it to the left of my cylinder.

J

Edit, no you are right its not the same as the drawing :headscratch:
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on April 19, 2014, 05:15:08 PM
Another case of Mr Hainings drawings being a bit off.

Take a look at this Z7S, no oval cutout on teh R/H side and the same shape as my casting. Phew :ThumbsUp:

Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 19, 2014, 05:15:34 PM
You are saved... just need a drawing now  :LittleDevil: and that looks like the centre bracket from the drawings.

My centre bracket is a bit different .

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 22, 2014, 09:39:20 PM
There are four eccentrics on the old girl, so having first marked up the offset and drilled it in a four jaw chuck I then commenced to turn up the eccentrics using a three jaw:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Crankshaft/IMG_6552.jpg)

I only turned one side, as I decided I did not trust myself to get them all perfectly to width using a parting off tool so faced the other side using a pot chuck:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Crankshaft/IMG_6553.jpg)

The result was all four eccentrics are within 0.03mm of each other's dimensions :pinkelephant:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Crankshaft/IMG_6556.jpg)

And there is also a spare, which had a slight scoring in the bore from the original drilling  :disappointed:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 23, 2014, 01:15:36 AM
There are four eccentrics on the old girl,

Nice way to get a fellow excited.  :naughty:
Subject wasn't what I'd hoped for but it was still satisfying.  ;D

I've been trying to find the time to get a  :popcorn: and read this thread from the beginning.
I really like these kinds of projects.
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: peatoluser on April 23, 2014, 06:21:52 AM
I like the use of thepot chuck. Another method I'll file away for future use.
the fabrication of the perch plate came out spot on - your far more parsimonious with the solder than me! I always end up feeding in too much
Looking forward to how you make the hornplates

peter
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 23, 2014, 07:19:16 AM
Nice way to get a fellow excited.  :naughty:

I'd be so lucky  :naughty:

Peter, I might be metal bashing for a while before I show much on the hornplates, cutting through 6mm plate is hard work. Once all the pieces are to the right sort of size I might post about the assembly work..

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 28, 2014, 09:17:45 PM
Ok I have a lot of swarf but not a lot to show for it so far  :shrug: I started by thinking out the different sizes of metal I would need:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Hornbrackets/IMG_6567.jpg)

this resulted in a lot of swarf as I have been trying to recycle some of the spare metal in mine and Uncle Eric's come in handy pile  :naughty: Most of it is boring milling but something I try to remember to do when I am milling on the end of a piece of metal is to use the top of the cutter not the bottom:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Hornbrackets/IMG_6569.jpg)

This is because the bottom is probably more worn out than the top and it also causes more leverage on the cutter which is not desirable. so the beginnings of the pieces for the right hand bracket:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Hornbrackets/IMG_6574.jpg)

An important trick you may be able to see is that I have milled a 1mm deep groove where the pieces need to be silver soldered together and (after  :censored: one of them up the first time) left the bits to be silver soldered in place that 1mm wider  ;)

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Hornbrackets/IMG_6573.jpg)

It is into these slots that the fixing holes needs to be drilled to coordinated positions:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Hornbrackets/IMG_6595.jpg)

Very carefully on the edges as I am using 8BA in a piece of 3.2mm black steel  :insane:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Hornbrackets/IMG_6589.jpg)

And making the most of my  :Love: UPT to help tap the threads. By the way I find that the screws fit better if you remember to tap the holes before I try to fit the screws  :-\

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Hornbrackets/IMG_6591.jpg)

It has taken a lot of work so far slowly the initial shape is beginning to form:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Hornbrackets/IMG_6593.jpg)

The fixing screws are easier to see on the back:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Hornbrackets/IMG_6594.jpg)

Next for fitting is the main bearing block  :).

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: sco on April 28, 2014, 09:50:51 PM
Jo,

Always fun and informative following your build logs - not getting where a 'Horn bracket' might belong though  ;D

Simon.
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: pgp001 on April 28, 2014, 10:12:39 PM
I thought everyone knew that a horn bracket fits onto the top of the horn plate  :LittleDevil:

Come on Jo, tell em where the horn plate fits.  :ThumbsUp:

Phil
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 29, 2014, 06:51:34 AM
Sorry  :-[

On a Locomotive  :-\ the boiler fits on a chassis, on a traction/ploughing engine the boiler is the chassis. So everything has to be attached to the boiler.  The crankshaft and all the other shafts need to be mounted parallel and securely to allow a gear chain from the crank to drive the crank, to do this two big plates are bolted on either side of the boiler, the horn plates:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Full%20Sized%20Photos/6Lionboiler.jpg)

We then need firm mounting plates for the crankshaft bearings and in the case of a ploughing engine the vertical plough shaft. These crankshaft mounting plates are known as horn brackets. The Right hand bracket is normally hidden under some of the gears, the boards and the gear changing mechanism, so difficult to see:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Full%20Sized%20Photos/8BB1202.jpg)

The left hand bracket is very shapely

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Full%20Sized%20Photos/4BB1210.jpg)

as it not only holds the crankshaft bearing but also supports the big bevel gears that drive the drum:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Full%20Sized%20Photos/0mmsr13024.jpg)

I have started with the easier bracket  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on April 29, 2014, 07:43:02 AM
Just one thing to clarify is that separate "Hornplates" are really only found on models, if you look at the first photo Jo posted the two vertical plates at the rear of the boiler are infact all one with the sides of the firebox.

On a model to keep scale thicknesses and to make boiler construction easier the "hornplates" are bolted to the sides of the firebox and it is these that the hornbrackets fix to

Hornplate, you can see the smaller bronze bracket at the top.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Fowler%20A7/A7-Hornassembly.jpg)

Model boiler with the firebox sides wrapped around the top. Note  bolt holes in the side
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Fowler%20A7/A7-boilerrear.jpg)

And the two together
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Fowler%20A7/A7-Offside.jpg)
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Stuart on April 29, 2014, 08:08:46 AM
A note for newbies the bolt holes Jason mentions are in fact hollow stays , the hole does not connect to the water space

These are also used in loco boilers to bolt things to the boiler without compromising the pressure vessel

Stuart
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: sco on April 29, 2014, 08:13:46 AM
Thanks all - the horn in all it's forms now understood  ;D

Simon.
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 29, 2014, 09:14:32 PM
The bearing block needed some grooves milled into its side to provide a fit:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Hornbrackets/IMG_6600.jpg)

This was done on the mill to a depth of 1.5mm:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Hornbrackets/IMG_6601.jpg)

And the fit checked:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Hornbrackets/IMG_6605.jpg)

This allowed me to start on the curved surface. It was first bent to shape and checked on the bracket:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Hornbrackets/IMG_6597.jpg)

Then I got the hacksaw out and a couple of half round files and had it shaped up in about 15 mins  ;) The final challenge is fitting it. I have fitted two screws in the front:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Hornbrackets/IMG_6599.jpg)

The remainder will have to wait as I am not risking drilling and tapping such small holes on a compound curve when I am tired  :hellno:

Jo

Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on May 08, 2014, 08:51:12 PM
I am doing something but it seems so little for so much time spent  :-\ I've turned bosses, cut plate and lots of boring  :shrug: things

I started the evening by fitting the lower horizontal part of the L/H bracket to the right hand part of the rear plate.

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Hornbrackets/IMG_6837.jpg)

Then I had to mill the left hand rear plate, that was a bit too tall to fit in the vice on its own so it had a couple of bits of additional plate put either side to support it whilst milling:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Hornbrackets/IMG_6836.jpg)

Time to be honest this is the second bottom plate the first one was too thin  :hammerbash: and I foolishly got carried away cutting the profile before I had fitted it to the bracket  :wallbang:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Hornbrackets/IMG_6838.jpg)

So a few hours later plate getting machined to size, 1mm grooves cut, holes drilled and tapped, screws cut down and after all of that it looks like this:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/BB1/Hornbrackets/IMG_6839.jpg)

I said progress is painfully slow  :shrug:  Soon I will have to start thinking about fitting the bearing blocks to this one  :thinking:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on July 14, 2014, 05:28:30 PM
An update: I have just dropped off the sheet of copper for the boiler to Southern Boiler works and discussed the new design with Paul. It is radically different from the original Hanning boiler and will enable her to operate at a high enough pressure to compound  :pinkelephant:

It should be ready in three weeks.  :whoohoo:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on July 14, 2014, 05:47:12 PM
Better stop playing with those other distractions and het on with those horn plates qand brackets so they are ready to fit.

J

PS I hope you soon recover from having to hand over the money :lolb:
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on August 07, 2014, 07:20:22 AM
:whoohoo:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on August 07, 2014, 07:25:59 AM
We assume it passed?

The moths better watch out ;)
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Stuart on August 07, 2014, 07:39:03 AM
Jo

It just needs a hair cut and a quick polish , a protective wrap and it all yours , after you have exchanged some wine tokens  :Love:

It's not as big as I thought but then I was used to the loco scaling not traction engine terms
Am I correct it's two inches to the foot ?

As you know loco,s are scaled on the gauge which makes narrow gauge one,s big for the same gauge track


Looking forward to the build

Stuart
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Steam Haulage on August 07, 2014, 08:00:41 AM
Hi Jo,

I've been eagerly following your BB1 build since Jason and yourself explained some of the ploughing gear to me a while ago.

Seeing the boiler under test  :ThumbsUp:has reminded me to re-read your whole thread with the intention of starting my own construction, once my MEMCorliss is complete.

It's really good to see the way you work, using the same sort of determination to overcome the difficulties which the fitters would have met whilst making the full-size machines.

Thank you

Jerry :old:
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on August 07, 2014, 08:10:05 AM
Stuart it's a 5" dia barrel, 22 1/2" overall boiler length if that helps you visualise the size.

Yes 2" to the foot or 1/6th scale, original had a 30 3/4" boiler
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Stuart on August 07, 2014, 09:26:11 AM
Thanks Jason

It's about the size of the one Paul did for my BR class 4 tank

It's the one in my avatar that's Paul's pic of it on test

Jo will have to go to the gym to lug it about then ,if it's anything like the heft of the class 4 one

Alas all the loco,s have now gone to heavy when you are on crutches

Thanks for the scale confirmation so unlike loco,s it's an actual scale ,not a gauge scale

Stuart
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on August 07, 2014, 02:03:38 PM
 :whoohoo: I've been invited to go and collect it.  :whoohoo:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on August 07, 2014, 04:55:50 PM
An offer I'm sure you will find hard to refuse :)
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on August 07, 2014, 06:35:04 PM
Home in one piece  :whoohoo:

And it brought a friend home  :naughty:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on August 07, 2014, 06:54:38 PM
Did you not get the blowdowns moved back in the end?
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Roger B on August 07, 2014, 07:12:55 PM
And it brought a friend home  :naughty:

A locomotive boiler?
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on August 07, 2014, 08:03:04 PM
Did you not get the blowdowns moved back in the end?

 :headscratch:  Those blowdowns are 38mm back from the front of the throat plate, add to it the dummy throat plate and the fact that I am not building a Hannings BB1 I am building a Fowler BB1 my steering brackets mount up the hornbrackets not along the sides :ShakeHead:

If it goes any further back it will be behind the hind wheel  :hellno: and you will not be able to get at it.

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on August 07, 2014, 08:11:29 PM
They are behind the hind wheel. I make it you need 68mm from the front of the dummy throatplate to the edge of the bush minimum, thats based on full size also

Rear edge of steering brackets is approx in line with the third row of rivits back on the full size which is 16" ( 8.25 + 3.875 + 3.875) = 67.73mm on the model

Agreed Hainings brackets are wrong the ones on teh GA don't match the ones on sheet 16 and also the hornplates should extend down to the foundation ring which would allow for the correct 6 fixing studs

J
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on May 08, 2015, 12:08:39 PM
Snap  ;D  Thank you Bill it has just arrived. 8)

 :thinking: The two are not exactly the same. Which one, which one to use  :headscratch:.

jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on May 08, 2015, 12:23:10 PM
Think I'm inclined to go with the one on the left as the flatter spokes look better and there is less of a filler where the spokes meet the hub. But if you can't decide you now have no excuse for not making a pair :LittleDevil:

Do you know from whos patterns the two have been taken? Tyler & Blackgates?

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5488/14060690106_371e417b87_c.jpg)

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7451/12389675784_d3101ce19b_c.jpg)
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on May 08, 2015, 12:35:10 PM
Do you know from whos patterns the two have been taken? Tyler & Blackgates?

 ;) One of each. I will probably take them along to the Stratfield Saye meeting so the Traction Engine boys can see the difference between the two.

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on May 08, 2015, 01:03:30 PM
I thought you might have the engine finished before the Nov meeting :Jester:
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: mike mott on May 19, 2015, 05:40:15 AM
Just Spent the whole evening going through your entire build. Most enjoyable, I like seeing the unique ways that you solved different problems.

It has inspired me to get out the set of colour slides I took of every engine that was at the first Expo steam in Battersea Park way back in the dark ages of 1969 on my first trip back home as a young lad.

Mike
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on May 19, 2015, 07:01:57 AM
Thanks Mike,

On of these days I must get back to this engine but life seems to be getting in the way  ::)

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Steam Haulage on May 19, 2015, 07:43:52 PM
Jo,

I have been following your build since the beginning with great interest. From you first postings you discussed the various sources of drawings and castings, as well descibing, along with JasonB the workings of the plough winding gear.

Since then I have kept an active interest in Fowler Plouging Engines and have recently discovered, to my surprise, that the Museaum of English Life at my alma mater hold the Fowler archives, apparently including the drawings, it seems for every class.

Have you been able to consult these? Maybe it would be worth my while to make the round trip from Nottinghamshire.

 :happyreader:Jerry
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on May 19, 2015, 08:41:10 PM
Thanks Jerry,

Yes the Reading Museum of Rural Life holds all the original Fowler works drawings including the original patent for Fowler's Mole Drainer  8)

I keep getting tempted to go up there but it is like so many places its more fun if you go with a friend  :embarassed:.

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on May 19, 2015, 08:53:29 PM
Richard down at Bartlett Eng has now got a lot of ploughing engine drawings and can scan and print upto A0 if Horsham is easier for you Jo.
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on May 19, 2015, 09:36:08 PM
No you missed the point Jason  :ShakeHead: I want to go to the Museum of Rural Life to have a look at the Fowler archive and the museum contents.

I have everything I need to design my engine.

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on May 20, 2015, 08:04:32 AM


Since then I have kept an active interest in Fowler Plouging Engines and have recently discovered, to my surprise, that the Museaum of English Life at my alma mater hold the Fowler archives, apparently including the drawings, it seems for every class.


They don't have drawings for every class, the later classes are quite well covered but there is very little of the earlier engines, maybe just a general arrangement of some if lucky. There are also a number of drawings of common parts that were used on several engines so you would need to know what was used on what so that you knew what to look at.

I do have a list of all the Folwer drawings held at MERL which would be worth consulting before traveling all that way.

Probably best to say MERL hold the Fowler drawings that still exist rather than all.

Jo do you have a drawing for the cylinder top cover, last photo you sent me of the pattern I mentioned that I thought the rear webs were misplaced?
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on May 20, 2015, 08:16:02 AM
I am still desiging the cylinder, etc another reason for the delay in getting the castings done  :disappointed:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on May 20, 2015, 08:21:08 AM
? No the top cover that you were making the pattern for not the cyl.
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on May 20, 2015, 08:26:43 AM
The top cover, not cylinder head.

It is rough  :facepalm2:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Steam Haulage on May 20, 2015, 09:03:29 AM
Jo and Jason,

Thanks for the comments about the Fowler drawings. My daughter is being married in Marlow in a few weeks time, I might find time to whizz along the M4 and have a looksee. If they are open by then.

Jason you mentioned the list of Fowler drawings that you have. Is that the list on their website? If not is it possible to let me have a copy?

Jerry
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on May 20, 2015, 09:35:50 AM
I call it the top cover or top dome

This is the bit I meant, as I said in the e-mail at the time the photo of the painted pattern you sent me had the webs spaced like below which I said did not look right so not sure what info you are using? Looks like you may have picked one of the alibre versions of Hainings parts you drew up early on rather than the corrected part.

Spacing of webs is wrong and the outer ones should be at a shallower angle.
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on May 22, 2015, 06:53:55 PM
I forgot to mention: Horsham is another 20 minutes further away from me than going directly to Reading. Assuming no tractors  :(

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Rivergypsy on October 21, 2016, 01:07:31 PM
Just rereading your post and getting tempted to start on my plans soon - have you done any more work on this one yet, Jo?
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on October 21, 2016, 01:53:55 PM
No, something to do with my Triples taking over the workshop of late   :embarassed:

The next step is having the cylinder cast, or rather me finishing off making the pattern...My current excuse list goes: Triples are in the way, I was going to put it and the Otto Langen patterns in at the same time but I don't have those patterns at the mo  ;) and the guy who was going to get them cast for me sneaked his Loco wheels in at the Foundry without warning me he was going to do it  >:( which would have encouraged me to spend that 1/2 a day finishing off the cylinder pattern and there are so many other things that keep getting in the way  :Doh:

And it was always supposed to be for my retirement and work seems to be avoiding making me redundant so that I can get at my pension and achieve my dream of spending every day in the workshop making swarf :rant: And now someone else has acquired a 4" traction engine to make during his retirement  :stickpoke:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Rivergypsy on October 26, 2016, 01:27:19 PM
PMSL! I can relate to the problem of being easily distracted :)

That Otto Langen is tempting me too, but one day...
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on March 11, 2017, 04:59:34 PM
It had to be done  :( wood   :disappointed:

Multi layers of MDF with the centre having two sheets of paper stuck to them for parting. The  :paranoia: wood has been woman handled into something that resembles a cylinder pattern. The head needs a little more work  :thinking:

After handling wood I had to spend some time recovering in the garden. So a picture for you Dave  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Bluechip on March 11, 2017, 05:04:09 PM
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm    Black Pudding, Mashed Tatties & Fried Onion Rings .....  :P  :P  :P

Dave ( One of the Many ...  :headscratch: )
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on March 11, 2017, 05:28:57 PM
Have you put your onions in yet Dave  ;D

Tatties are in... as are the Beetroot..... Spring is here  :whoohoo:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: steam guy willy on March 11, 2017, 05:55:15 PM
Have you put your onions in yet Dave  ;D

Tatties are in... as are the Beetroot..... Spring is here  :whoohoo:

Hi Jo, just got mine in as well !! this is a corner of my allotment  !!! An engineers plot one might think !! this was a corner last year.......
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Steamer5 on March 11, 2017, 09:34:06 PM
Hi Jo,
 Hope you get a summer, we went from spring to autumn!
Oooh goody movement on the the garden plow!

Willy,
 Looks like you got an early crop in....  :lolb:

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Flyboy Jim on March 11, 2017, 10:53:55 PM
It had to be done  :( wood   :disappointed:

Multi layers of MDF with the centre having two sheets of paper stuck to them for parting. The  :paranoia: wood has been woman handled into something that resembles a cylinder pattern. The head needs a little more work  :thinking:

After handling wood I had to spend some time recovering in the garden. So a picture for you Dave  ;)

Jo

Nice garden Jo. All I could do in my garden right now is make mud pies!  :wallbang: The "Wet Pacific Northwest" is living up to it's name this year.

Jim
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: 10KPete on March 11, 2017, 11:39:51 PM
Yep, here in western Washington state this is the third wettest winter on record. The ground is just perfect for driving fence posts...

Pete
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Bluechip on March 12, 2017, 12:14:12 AM
Have you put your onions in yet Dave  ;D

Tatties are in... as are the Beetroot..... Spring is here  :whoohoo:

Jo

Onions germinated and got to the tatty loop stage, transplant to pots in about a week and then into greenhouse ( assuming I've slung all the timber out ...  :headscratch:  Every Autumn I dump all the junk in there, promising it'll all be out by Spring. Every Spring I curse my idiocy ...   :facepalm2:  ). I don't plant them out until 1st. week in May.

Me 'taters are in the shed, safely tucked away in their bags ...  ;D  Roosters, that is, not any others that may spring to the deviant mind ...  :thinking: Too damn wet here. Need to get some petrol for the Mantis. Around here we reckon on 2nd. week in April 'cos of late frosts. Unless, of course, one is prepared to see ones 'taters gaily bedecked in fleece.

Gordon Bennett, Willy. That's some foliage you have there.   :ThumbsUp:  Any triffids amongst them ??

Dave.

Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 12, 2017, 12:54:53 AM
Tatties are in... as are the Beetroot..... Spring is here  :whoohoo:

No doubt at some point you'll show us your produce?  :naughty:
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on March 12, 2017, 07:32:19 AM
Pleased to see a few more gardeners out there, there is nothing nicer than fresh produce from the garden 8) Not sure how they get away with selling that taste/smell free stuff in the shops  :disappointed:

Dave,  I too had been hoarding in the greenhouse using it for drying wood I had to make a point to clear out at Xmas  ::).

One for Zee.... Last year's onions: The individual size all depends on how much it rains in June and July. Before they put me on a water meter they were much bigger  :naughty:


Hopefully get the patterns finished off this week, then they can join the Otto Langen patterns on a visit to the foundry  ;D

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: 10KPete on March 12, 2017, 10:07:53 AM
Jo, that's a beautiful pile of onions.. I'm itching to get something in the dirt but it's mud a foot deep.. :'(
Gotta prune my apple trees also....
Pete
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: wagnmkr on March 12, 2017, 10:17:44 AM
I would love to get in the garden, but it is under snow, with another 6 inches or so on the way next week.

Good looking onions Jo.

Tom
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Steamer5 on March 12, 2017, 11:36:16 AM
Hi Jo,
 Nice crop! Bit big to pickle but they will be nice slow roasted...... :P

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on March 12, 2017, 12:56:35 PM
Those are the big ones Kerrin. Last year I decided to pickle all the smaller one  :P Previously I had foolishly tried replanting them the following year but they just throw up flower spikes  :disappointed:

This year young Dave talked me into not throwing away all the weany little onions from the sets but rather to still plant them and use them as spring onions.


Patterns are ready to go on their holidays :)

Jo

Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: steam guy willy on March 12, 2017, 01:13:14 PM
Pleased to see a few more gardeners out there, there is nothing nicer than fresh produce from the garden 8) Not sure how they get away with selling that taste/smell free stuff in the shops  :disappointed:

Dave,  I too had been hoarding in the greenhouse using it for drying wood I had to make a point to clear out at Xmas  ::).

One for Zee.... Last year's onions: The individual size all depends on how much it rains in June and July. Before they put me on a water meter they were much bigger  :naughty:


Hopefully get the patterns finished off this week, then they can join the Otto Langen patterns on a visit to the foundry  ;)

Is that a Motorbike lurking there ........A BMW with earles forks  ??

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Chipmaster on March 12, 2017, 01:28:40 PM
Me too, my wife took on an allotment last year,

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/694/32581498273_0d6122d80d_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/RD7Gje)WP_20160529_13_18_24_Pro (https://flic.kr/p/RD7Gje) by Andy (https://www.flickr.com/photos/116764188@N08/), on Flickr
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/609/33354808016_2825565b84_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/SPs7mQ)WP_20160821_12_15_55_Pro (https://flic.kr/p/SPs7mQ) by Andy (https://www.flickr.com/photos/116764188@N08/), on Flickr

Andy
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on March 12, 2017, 02:19:21 PM
Nice one Andy  :ThumbsUp: You can keep the runners... I'm into Kenyan beans  ;D

Is that a Motorbike lurking there ........A BMW with earles forks  ??

That's a B40 BSA and my Dommie  ;D

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Flyboy Jim on March 12, 2017, 02:20:40 PM
Pleased to see a few more gardeners out there, there is nothing nicer than fresh produce from the garden 8) Not sure how they get away with selling that taste/smell free stuff in the shops  :disappointed:

Dave,  I too had been hoarding in the greenhouse using it for drying wood I had to make a point to clear out at Xmas  ::).

One for Zee.... Last year's onions: The individual size all depends on how much it rains in June and July. Before they put me on a water meter they were much bigger  :naughty:


Hopefully get the patterns finished off this week, then they can join the Otto Langen patterns on a visit to the foundry  ;D

Jo

Nice onion crop Jo.  :LickLips: I've only been semi successful with onions.

However, the important thing is: What is that headlight attached to that is on the right side of the onion picture?  :headscratch:

Jim

PS: I see the answer got posted while I was typing my post.
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Bluechip on March 12, 2017, 05:59:59 PM
Those are the big ones Kerrin. Last year I decided to pickle all the smaller one  :P Previously I had foolishly tried replanting them the following year but they just throw up flower spikes  :disappointed:

This year young Dave talked me into not throwing away all the weany little onions from the sets but rather to still plant them and use them as spring onions.


Patterns are ready to go on their holidays :)

Jo


Just how far did you turn the clocks back last October ????   :headscratch:   

Yup. Onions are biennial plants.  Alliums .. as you probably know ...

Dave

PS They won't taste like spring onions, they will be stronger.


Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Rivergypsy on March 16, 2017, 12:45:34 PM
Good to see you back on this project, Jo  :ThumbsUp:

Where do you get your castings poured, by the way?
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on March 16, 2017, 01:09:38 PM
Thanks Dave,

Where do you get your castings poured, by the way?

There is a foundry over by Guildford somewhere  :noidea:... Not sure where my Supplier normally gets my castings done with his. I may be allowed to go and find out where it is this time  :)

It is likely to be a big pour: in Cast Iron we have three sets of 1/4 scale Otto Langen parts, the BB1 Cylinder + Dome, four 5A's Cylinders and stands, some 7 1/4" loco thingies  :facepalm2: and something for Sexy, in Ali there are a Falcon and a Condor (which are destined for New Zealand  :o ) plus a couple of other engines that I have been told I will find interesting  :headscratch:.

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: scc on March 17, 2017, 12:10:08 PM
An  All Star cast :ROFL:
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Rivergypsy on March 17, 2017, 12:22:44 PM
Ah that's good to know - the in-laws are in Surrey, so perhaps a visit is due. Can i ask which supplier you use to get work done there, please? Just thinking ahead for the Ateliers build, and some tooling I want to have a go at...
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Roger B on March 17, 2017, 07:35:52 PM
Glad to see that this is continuing (and yet more castings)  :)
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 07, 2017, 04:09:48 PM
My supplier has picked up my casting for the BB1 cylinder.  :whoohoo:

In the end the price for doing the head was too high (£45) and there was a risk it would not look right at the end. I did not mind the £75 for the Cylinder but £45 for a diddy little head  :ShakeHead:


There are also another three sets of heavy castings that were done at the same time, I am sure at least one of those will have my name on it  :naughty:


I was sure my Supplier was supposed to be taking me to his secret foundry, in case I needed it in the future  :noidea:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on April 07, 2017, 04:14:29 PM
 :pics:
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 07, 2017, 04:19:48 PM
He's mean: He has phoned up to confirm their safe arrival but where are the photos  :rant:

The latest will be tomorrow afternoon when they are due for drop off....  :)

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 07, 2017, 08:47:56 PM
Finally, tried waiting until after my bed time before Emailing them  ::)

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on April 07, 2017, 08:50:11 PM
Look to have come out quite nicely.

J
Title: Re: 1/4 scale Otto Langen 1866 Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on April 08, 2017, 02:15:13 PM
Jo............I just went back and looked at the start of this thread and realized it has a bit of history.  :atcomputer: I'm going to enjoy reading through it to get back up to where you are now.  :popcorn:

Jim
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on April 08, 2017, 05:04:19 PM
Hi Jim, Welcome to my very long term build  :embarassed:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on May 05, 2019, 02:04:10 PM
Tee rings ordered  :whoohoo:

Jo


P.S. Onward was in fine fettle today taking our May Queen down to the festivities   8)
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on May 05, 2019, 04:33:36 PM
 :pinkelephant:

Are you having them done via Onward's owner or from Ashby?

Smoke box as well?

J

PS I hope you did not spend all day dancing round the pole ;)
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on May 05, 2019, 05:21:15 PM
Dave's getting them done for me when he gets some bits done for his new B6 he's building  :)

I forgot about asking for the smokebox  :facepalm:

Jo
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jasonb on May 05, 2019, 05:32:37 PM
If you are going to add that to the order then may as well get the stiffener that goes between smokebox and perch bracket too.

J
Title: Re: Fowler BB1 in 2"
Post by: Jo on May 05, 2019, 07:17:31 PM
I'm not pushing my luck  :-X

Jo