Model Engine Maker

Engines => From Plans => Topic started by: smfr on September 16, 2013, 04:31:17 AM

Title: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on September 16, 2013, 04:31:17 AM
I've made a start on an engine I posted about over in Plans and Drawings: http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,2141.0.html (http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,2141.0.html), which is a two-cylinder horizontal engine with a Joys valve, by H. Muncaster. This was described in Model Engineer and Electrician in 1905. (starting on p 222).

Over the past 8 months or so I've been modeling this engine in Rhino 3D on Mac, to get a feel for the parts, and to prepare for manufacture. This is what the finished engine looks like:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7291/9767540826_2bd2183a9b_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/9767540826/)

The original plans have the engine at 22" long, which is a bit big for my little lathe/mill, so I'm building it at 2/3 scale, and checking the scaling with a scaled down CAD model. I was particularly worried about scaling the valve mechanism, so fixed my web-based valve simulation to simulate the 2/3 scale version: http://smfr.org/sim/joys-valve-linkage/ (http://smfr.org/sim/joys-valve-linkage/) (requires a modern browser like Safari, Firefox, Chrome, or iPad/iPhone). The simulation also allows me to adjust the valve dimensions and see the effect of adjusting lap and lead on timing.

After scaling, the vital statistics are:

I plan to build up the base from Al, use a solid block of cast iron for the cylinder block (ha, that will be fun!), probably build up the steam chest, most likely a built-up crank, bronze bearings etc.

But enough with the computer stuff! This will be my first barstock "historical" engine, so time to cut some metal!

Here's our starting point for the base; about $50 of Al from the remnants center, with the base sides already sketched out:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3731/9767506853_19f2ed7ebe_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/9767506853/)

I was very glad to have the bandsaw to cut out the sides of the base, but I did have to make a table for it. Both sides of the base are taken from one lump of Al about 0.9" thick. I did a bit of chain drilling to give some maneuvering room:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7296/9767429325_357d1fc47a_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/9767429325/)

and we end up with this:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3807/9767510873_fae3604e8a_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/9767510873/)

Now I need to give myself a reference edge on those parts, so onto the mill with a rougher first, to take off enough to clean off the dings, and then a 1/2" endmill. The length of this engine is really pushing the limits of the tiny milling table on my Emco!

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7330/9767434466_64f2b6dfb2_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/9767434466/)

Once the bottom edge was good and flat, I could mark out the various levels, and the bearing points. At this point the bearing locations are my primary datum.

Now some milling to height. My top pieces will cover the sides, so I need to take their thickness into account.

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3670/9767450054_7521343321_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/9767450054/)

At this point I needed to bore the fetching curved profiles on each side of the bearings; circles of 1" and 1.5" radii, which my little 1" boring head was not up to! However, when I bought my Emco it came with a box of freebies, various bits and bobs mostly suited to much larger machines. In this was this 3" Mesa Tools boring head:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3759/9767619202_28ac649fb6_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/9767619202/)

with an R8 adaptor. My mill has an M2 spindle, so I had nothing to lose by converting that R8 adaptor to an M2! A spare M2 arbor was mounted between centers, and the cross-slide set at the appropriate angle with an indicator. Then I hacked away at the R8 adaptor. Then, getting close to final dimensions, this happend:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7421/9767827896_2e810b25ff_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/9767827896/)

so I had to re-mount the left part in the 4-jaw, indicate it in, clean up the broken end and center drill, then re-mount to turn the rest of the taper, which was uneventful. A bit of Sharpie ink shows that it's a pretty good fit to the mill spindle bore. I know the MT-2 is pretty skinny for this boring head, and don't intend to push the boring head hard with this setup. But it gets me out of a pinch!

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3778/9767831774_8fd28242e8_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/9767831774/)

Back to the engine base. Here's the very big-looking boring head in situ:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2870/9767442735_ae2579bfcd_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/9767442735/)

Next problem!  :facepalm:  The boring head takes 3/4" tooling and all my boring bars are 1/2". Being too lazy to make a split sleeve, I raided my bottom drawer of unused endmills (including some meaty 3/4" mills that I got in a job lot). I picked out a worn-looking one, and ground down most of the flutes except for about 1/4" near the end, adding some relief so that the only part that should cut is the very tip of the flute. My first attempt resulted in quite a bit of chatter, but after some adjustment on the grinder it became fairly well behaved. Here I'm using some sharpie marking to check the contact points:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2826/9767452844_10633120fc_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/9767452844/)

and it looks good. To get close to final cutting diameter I used some 1-2-3 blocks to get the required 2" and 3" diameters:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7372/9767526953_1ec5ae7ef0_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/9767526953/)

before backing out to start the cut, and going in about 0.075" per roughing pass. I'm quite pleased with the final result:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7370/9767240671_48bc403a8d_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/9767240671/)

and we have something that's starting to look like an engine base:

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5458/9767242751_6f118c6ba7_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/9767242751/)

There's a lot of profiling to do on the outside surfaces; I'm going to put in a 1.5deg casting angle on the exterior faces, and the interior of the bearing pedestals, and I'll cut away a lot of material under the left two sections. My current plan for fixing this together is to use a combination of concealed pins and JB-Weld, but I need to do a test join on some scrap to see how it holds together, and to figure out how much room to leave for the epoxy.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: sbwhart on September 16, 2013, 07:03:20 AM
Nice start Simon.

It looks like a very nice interesting engine that you have research in great detail.

I'll be quietly following along the build.

Stew
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jo on September 16, 2013, 08:55:11 AM
Nice to see you have started your next engine so soon after finishing the last  :ThumbsDown: It looks much more interesting than a Stuart Victoria  8)

I don't know if it will fit your boring head but I noted that you can buy the adaptors separately from the heads from some of the suppliers.

Jo
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jasonb on September 16, 2013, 11:33:43 AM
Looking good so far Simon. I think I would add some socket head screws to hold things together rather than rely on JB weld, you can counter bore the heads and fill the holes.

J
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on September 16, 2013, 11:51:16 AM
Great start on what should be a very interesting engine Simon. I will be following along as well. I tend to agree with Jason on the JB Weld, though the addition of pins as proposed would certainly strengthen those joints.

Bill
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on September 16, 2013, 01:18:25 PM
Very interesting build. I will stay tuned.---Brian
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: tvoght on September 16, 2013, 01:34:31 PM
Hi Simon,
I'm really interested in this build, especially the valve gear.

As to fastening the frame together, on my Upshur Farm Engine I took the approach Jason has suggested - socket head cap screws with plugged counter-bores.

Starting at post #6 here:
http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,341.0.html

--Tim
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: vcutajar on September 16, 2013, 02:00:46 PM
A good start Simon.  I will be surely following along.

Vince
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on September 16, 2013, 02:32:21 PM
Nice CAD work Simon,

Also good to see another new project in the works; I'm looking forward to following along with your build.

Dave
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on September 16, 2013, 02:41:23 PM
Looking great Simon, if the Stuart was a warm up project I can only imagine what this one will be, now that you're on a roll :cheers:

Whiskey
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on September 16, 2013, 04:50:02 PM
Nice to see you have started your next engine so soon after finishing the last  :ThumbsDown: It looks much more interesting than a Stuart Victoria  8)

Thumbs down because I didn't make a nice wooden base to put it on the dining room table?  ;D

I'll get a round tuit. Eventually. Actually another engine on my to-do list will involve a bit of woodwork, so I'll be keeping my eyes open for some good bits of hardwood.

I don't know if it will fit your boring head but I noted that you can buy the adaptors separately from the heads from some of the suppliers.

I've kept an eye out for these, but MT2 adaptors for large boring heads (and facemills) are very hard to come by, I think because they aren't considered beefy enough.

I'll think about using socket-head screws to hold things together. I'm just a bit worried that I'd get the depth wrong and reveal a head in the profiling process.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jo on September 16, 2013, 04:57:08 PM
 :embarassed: Sorry not intentional I meant to use:  :ThumbsUp:

Jo
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jasonb on September 16, 2013, 06:16:14 PM
Don't worry unduly about teh screw heads they machine OK, as you can see from the ones in this flywheel rim.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Engineering/EastonandAnderson/c474a8a0-f8f7-4330-ace6-19a73ba46aa2_zps17f0feaa.jpg)
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: GailinNM on September 16, 2013, 09:23:37 PM
Great going Simon.  Joy's valve gear has enough "monkey motion" to make it fun to watch yet not too much to be confusing to the observer. 
Gail in NM
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on September 25, 2013, 01:00:07 AM
Not too much progress over the past couple of weeks. I tried making a finger engine as a gift for my nephew, but the geometry didn't work out so it will sit around begging for some parts to be remade.

I did, however, do a test joint with JB Weld to preflight the joining of my base parts together. I turned a couple of pins, with some grippy sections, and filed a flat to avoid hydro lock when putting things together:

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5330/9924522956_d5a45f854b_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/9924522956/)

Matching holes drilled on a couple of offcuts, and I cleaned everything with denatured alcohol:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3749/9924524566_f85c8b339d_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/9924524566/)

and assembled the joint with a clamp:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2843/9924526916_a16b20ac93_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/9924526916/)

After a week of curing, I put the short end in the vice and yanked the long end up and down. I felt a couple of pops as the epoxy detached from the flat mating surfaces (perhaps I should have roughed them up more), but it held around the pins and the joint didn't become loose, so I think this technique is plenty strong enough for my purposes.

[Edit] maybe I should have roughed up the insides of the holes with a burr too?

Simon

Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Don1966 on September 25, 2013, 01:17:29 AM
Hi Simon, just catching up on your new built and I do want to tune in and watch it take shape. Looks to be a very interesting build.  :ThumbsUp:

Don
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: ths on September 25, 2013, 02:33:38 AM
I always think that with metals, epoxy does better with a bit of polygonal geometry to bond into. Hugh.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: V 45 on September 25, 2013, 03:12:38 AM
Hello Simon...nice start to another interesting build. I'll watch as you progress.
Dave
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Noitoen on September 25, 2013, 10:17:09 AM
You should get better bond with less work if the pins are from threaded rod ;) The holes could have a thread as well even if they don't "mate" with the pins.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: sshire on September 25, 2013, 01:17:38 PM
Interesting engine,Simon. Great start as usual. This shows ow much you've thought about this. I try to think through the machining for my next part in my head before cutting metal. Will you post the plans?
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on September 25, 2013, 03:17:48 PM
Simon, its looking good so far. I think the pinning and JB Weld should hold up fine given what you said about testing the joints so far. Worst case scenario is you might have to re-glue the joints some day, but I doubt that will be soon. If you decide to mount it to a wooden base as some point into the bottom of the frame members, that would further reinforce the whole structure too. Looking forward to seeing more on this one !!

Bill
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: sshire on September 25, 2013, 08:46:32 PM
Simon
Im sure you've seen these, but others may be interested

http://www.replicaplans.com/MuncasterSteamEnginePlans.html
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on September 25, 2013, 09:08:15 PM
Im sure you've seen these, but others may be interested

http://www.replicaplans.com/MuncasterSteamEnginePlans.html

Thanks Stan, I have! This engine isn't on the list, though!

As for posting the plans, the 3D package I'm using does a terrible job of making 2D drawings :( I could try to export a .dwg or .dxf but I don't know how well it would transfer to AutoCAD.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Bearcar1 on September 26, 2013, 12:09:39 AM
Holy cow! Simon, nice work and I'll be watching as you proceed.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:  Great start.


BC1
Jim
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: sshire on September 26, 2013, 12:32:57 AM
Simon
If u want to try an Autocad export, I can see how it does with the 2d
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Maryak on September 26, 2013, 01:08:31 AM
Hi Guys,

I have found that in a lot of cases the forum is unable to handle large CAD files. When we were developing the MEM Corliss we exchanged CAD files using a free internet service called "Transfer Big Files."

This service uses your browser to upload/download the files and your email for notifications that the files are sent/available.

Hope this helps

Best Regards
Bob
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on October 13, 2013, 06:13:28 AM
After a few-week hiatus (consisting of a trip back to the UK  :cheers:) I'm back at it on this engine!

I'm putting a casting angle (1.25deg) around the external sides of the base, and the inside of the crank end. For this I need some angle blocks, so I use trig to find out how far apart I need to put a pair of parallels, one 1/8" taller than the other, and it comes out to 5.something". A big parallel, plus the vise width, plus an adjustable parallel make up this width:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7391/10238599815_1f0f5f4a5b_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10238599815/)

and with a plate across the parallels I can mill the angle blocks. I made two sets; one for clamping directly to the milling table, with a 1/8" step and holes, and a smaller pair for use in the vise:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7304/10238497194_9002be61cf_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10238497194/)

Now we can put  those angle blocks to work! I started with the base end pieces. Here's one on its side in the vise, with the base of the part clamped against the angle blocks (on the right side). A bit of bar on the left ensures that the part's angle is controlled by the angle blocks and not the vise jaws.

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3671/10238605755_c354f8410b_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10238605755/)

Now I'm ready to mill the base radius with a 3/16" ball end mill, in three passes:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7313/10238595586_42b537927e_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10238595586/)

and the rest of the material was milled off with a 1/2" cutter. Do that a couple of times and we have our end pieces:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7402/10238503194_170becc1d3_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10238503194/)

Now the long base sides pose a bit more of a challenge, given their length.

Before going any further, I located, drilled and reamed a hole corresponding to the main crank location (this will be milled away to create the bearing slot later, but it's useful now as a datum, and to keep the parts aligned). I also drilled for the valve adjustment lever. Now I can keep the parts together for the next few operations.

I have to mill the ends of the side pieces from the top; there's no way I have enough headroom to do what I did for the end pieces above. So the sides are held in the vise, and tilted to get the casting angle. I'm using one of my angle blocks and an indicator to get the angle right:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7302/10238507984_129b972ec5_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10238507984/)

I took off the bulk of the material with a rougher, then cleaned up with a 1/2" end mill, leaving enough material to form the radius later:

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5333/10238603956_8b86b88162_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10238603956/)

Finally I used the 3/16" ball end mill to do the profile. My end mill was only just long enough, and on one end I was a bad person and put the end mill in a chuck, because it was the only way I could get enough clearance to make the cut. But taking light cuts there were no mishaps.

Now it's time to do the long sides! We're really pushing the limits of my machine here:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3738/10238607186_d5e967160a_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10238607186/)

The stepped angle blocks earn their keep, and a bit of hardware store hot-roll flat bar adds some mass and stiffness under the part. I used an indicator to carefully tram in the part, since any error here would be very obvious over this length. It's not obvious from the photo, but the angle blocks are tilting the part such that the front edge is lower than the back.

Again the first step is the ball-end mill, under slow power feed doing three passes:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3759/10238708463_d4dd8149bf_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10238708463/)

On the first pass I was feeding too fast, and the cutter clogged and broke a flute, which was obvious from the change in noise and the uneven cut:

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8536/10238703913_784fb7d631_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10238703913/)

Luckily it's a two-ended cutter, so I flipped it around and carried on a bit more gingerly!

The bulk of the material was removed with a 1/2" cutter again. Here I've done one pass close to final depth, and I'm using an indicator to measure the difference in depth between the profiled channel and the new cut, so I know how far to drop the cutter to get things to match:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2841/10238631165_8fab8b8274_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10238631165/)

There is a quarter-round profile around the bearings that I'm going to try to machine from the bulk material, so we leave the bearing area alone:

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5468/10238634345_d181d8a270_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10238634345/)

After completing one side, I'm pleased to see that I'm spot-on depth-wise at the top of the part with my marking-out. The power of maths!  :whoohoo:

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5498/10238637835_56ac6f2fee_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10238637835/)

The second side has a boss for the valve lever, which I scoop out freehand with the ball-end mill and a filing button (if the button starts spinning, back off!):

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3743/10238721263_c5318f2d5d_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10238721263/)

and after taking off the rest of the material on this face, I finish off this boss on the rotary table:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3689/10238538514_a391f41c2f_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10238538514/)

which requires doing four separate cuts since I can't rotate the table all the way around with this long part!  :wallbang:

The results aren't bad, though:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3706/10238726503_e1d5395795_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10238726503/)

but I might end up re-doing this profile with a smaller radius later.

So here's what we end up with:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7406/10238648205_143644f918_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10238648205/)

Next is removing material from the insides of the base sides!

I'm also a bit unsure how to do the top plates. It would be sensible to use steel for stability, but there are quite a few projections (oil wells) around the crosshead slides and other bosses that would mean a lot of material to mill away, so I'll probably use Al.  :thinking:

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jasonb on October 13, 2013, 07:22:52 AM
Sides look good. For the projections what about soldering or sticking them to a thinner plate rather than cut from solid.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: NickG on October 14, 2013, 06:58:06 PM
Great start Simon, nice to see this materialising after seeing your CAD design. I'll definitely be following.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on October 15, 2013, 05:57:15 AM
Hmm, I'm confused.  :insane:  I'm modelling the crosshead, as shown in the attachment, and looking at that cotter. I can't figure out how the cotter and related nuts work. Shouldn't the wedge be reversed, so that tightening pulls the wedge up? Or is the hole in the top face of the crosshead threaded, and tightening is pushing the wedge down?

[Edit: it must be a threaded hole, right? There's no way to get a cotter fixed on a threaded rod in there]

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jasonb on October 15, 2013, 07:41:57 AM
The crosshead is tapped, as the bolt is tightened it pushed down on the wedge which closes up the split bearing, the nut is to lock the bolt in position.

The end of the bolt is likely to be turned to core dia and slightly rounded at the end and locate in a shallow hole in the wedge
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Don1966 on October 16, 2013, 12:00:13 AM
Simon following you photos is like being in a class room. You give a great step by step. I like............ :ThumbsUp:

Don
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on October 16, 2013, 12:53:27 AM
Nice to see you back at it Simon...hope the trip was enjoyable too!!

Bill
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on October 20, 2013, 05:16:43 AM
Thanks folks! It was a very enjoyable trip, Bill!

A bit more progress on shaping the main bearing supports over the past few weekend days.

If you look at the last picture you can see that the radius on the sides (that I bored earlier) doesn't bring the end face of the columns down sharply enough to meet the flat top face of the end cross piece. That would both leave some awkward profiling to do later, and also not make it easy to add the holes used to secure the base to the substrate. The plans lie, and suggest the simple radius that I bored before, but it's really a non-circular curve.  :rant: So I had to fix this!

This photo makes it clearer what I need to remove. The two side pieces are ganged together, requiring a nice long endmill to remove the material.

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7368/10373624803_bd3eb0b6d7_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10373624803/)

I just nibbled up to the line:

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5472/10373414044_7b932b4d19_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10373414044/)

and then filed away the tool marks with a combination of round and half-round files:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3722/10373419624_9bdc7306be_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10373419624/)

The sharpie marks are so that I can see what material is being removed. The parts are still ganged together, and I had to take care to keep the files perpendicular to the part to avoid crooked faces.

Now it's much closer to the plans:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7441/10373632883_1918a0f566_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10373632883/)

Now to work on the bosses around the main bearings. There's a small radius feature here that I'd like to replicate. First I had to mill the bosses to final thickness (clamping the parts will require shims from now on, because here I lost my original surface). After some careful marking out, using the holes as the datum, I was ready to use a 1/16" corner-rounding end mill to cut the radius. I had to grind the tip of the end mill down to be able to use the cutter here, especially on the lower edge (remember that the part has a "casting angle" milled into it).

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3768/10373449796_786449c6ed_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10373449796/)

Because of that casting angle I can't get the cutter flush with the surface, so we are left with a small lip that requires some filing to remove.

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7335/10373456746_82235f35f8_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10373456746/)

This photo shows the files I used. I've ground a safe edge on the one in the top left (which was surprisingly easy and makes the file incredibly useful!).

But before we do too much filing, the corners need rounding! Time to break out the rotary table, center the part on the punch marks for each corner, and carefully do the radii:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3794/10373466836_ba2de3860a_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10373466836/)

Final result after some cleanup with files and wet & dry:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3716/10373435914_2050f113c2_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10373435914/)

Now the final step on these bosses is to mill away the area where the bearing flanges will go, and a 3/16" end mill gives the right radii for the corners. I need to be fairly accurate here:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2816/10373663423_e4ab2abf2c_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10373663423/)

The central part will get milled away after base assembly, to make sure both sides line up. And that leaves us with this:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3672/10373452534_f111a53cf4_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10373452534/)

This rendering shows what we're shooting for. At some point I have to figure out how to do the interesting curves of the bearing cap  :noidea:

(http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2470.0;attach=9280)

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jo on October 20, 2013, 06:58:35 AM
Nice bit of profiling Simon  :ThumbsUp:

I would have thought that after that those cap curves should be a breeze. (I'm assuming that you intend on putting the bolting down pads on separately).

Jo
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Don1966 on October 20, 2013, 12:59:37 PM
Simon I don't know about you but I liked the look of that lip left after you rounded the edges. I know you want it to look like casting, but that wouldn't of changed the look. There are intricate details also in castings. Beautiful work by the way and your work has really taken off.

Don
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on October 20, 2013, 02:31:04 PM
Simon, truly outstanding. I really like the " mill to and file the line" . As they say these days; "Back in the day" many very fine and accurate parts were produced in just that manner. :cheers: Seems we may have another up and coming George amongst us.

Whiskey

Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on October 20, 2013, 05:25:31 PM
I would have thought that after that those cap curves should be a breeze. (I'm assuming that you intend on putting the bolting down pads on separately).

Yes, there are various bolt-down pads that I'll put in separately; end-mill a pocket, stick in a bit of bar, add a fillet with Milliput or JB-Weld.

Now that I look at it that profile on the bearing cap is pretty close to three circles (small one at each end, large radius across the middle), so some rotary table work should get it close! I can make both in one go and then slice them apart.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jasonb on October 20, 2013, 08:03:16 PM
Simon, do you have part 9 of the Muncaster series as that shows bearing cap details, as you say one large curve and two rounded ends.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on October 21, 2013, 12:42:26 AM
Simon, do you have part 9 of the Muncaster series as that shows bearing cap details, as you say one large curve and two rounded ends.

 :thinking: Not sure what series you're referring to, Jason. I'm going on the series of 3 articles in Model Engineer, 1905. pp 222, 273 and 320. If this same engine is described somewhere else I'd love to hear about it!

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Captain Jerry on October 21, 2013, 02:16:07 AM
Simon

That molded boss around the bearing is a superb detail.  You seem to be more concerned with the upper profile of the cap but I think you can handle that with ease.  I am anxious to see how you carry that boss into the cap.  Really nice work.

Jerry
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jasonb on October 21, 2013, 07:31:22 AM
E T Westbury did a series over 10 parts in 1957 about Muncaster's models, yours is not there but quite a few other future projects may be.

PM sent
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jo on October 21, 2013, 07:47:33 AM
The 1957 article by Westbury discusses many of the features of the model engines that Munchester designed and bringing them up to date. Such as this alternative main bearing.

Jo
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: ths on October 21, 2013, 08:18:31 AM
Hi Simon, here's a link to the 9 articles that ETW wrote on the Muncaster engines. They are all downloadable.

http://www.replicaplans.com/MuncasterSteamEnginePlans.html

Cheers, Hugh.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on October 28, 2013, 05:12:32 AM
I have now read and digested the Westbury articles, and found them quite useful! Thanks to everyone who pointed me in the right direction. I do notice from the bearing pedestal detail in the Westbury article that I shouldn't have milled out the slot for the bearings like I did, but I think it's OK: I'll just have thicker bearing flanges.

Work on the base continues, and I'm getting quite tired of milling Ally and wanting to get onto some moving parts  :'(

I thinned out the sides on the bandsaw, after cutting some 1/2" slots so I could get the blade in:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2884/10529381806_2b47381746_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10529381806/)

My slotted bandsaw table worked nicely, and I used a bit of bar in the slot, with an adjustable parallel to keep the part lined up. Slow going, but better than turning all that material into chips! Both sides done:

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5498/10529604873_c62fd7cf6d_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10529604873/)

However, when I checked the sides against eachother I could see that sawing away half the thickness made them go banana-shaped  :hammerbash:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2808/10529387996_dd3d278930_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10529387996/)

I didn't realise this would be a problem with Ally!

So there followed some fussing around with a bit of steel bar in the bench vise trying to get things back into shape. I was surprised how much it could deform without actually taking the bend. I had the vise about as tight as it would go, even with a bit of pipe on the vise handle.

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2805/10529389266_44e11fb389_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10529389266/)

I attempted various bends on both sides, checking the exterior surface for straightness each time. Finally I got some movement, and now have it so that the ends match up, but I think only one of the bends really took so one side is a bit convex, but that's OK; these are non-critical parts.

Now I just have to mill angled slots on each side for the that bit of plate at the back, and I'm ready to JB Weld these chunks together:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3822/10529426994_96394145a4_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10529426994/)

Next I have to start thinking about the top surfaces and their various features:

(http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2470.0;attach=9532;image)

Simon

P.S. Just noticed that I did the bottom edge profile wrong  :hammerbash:
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: ths on October 28, 2013, 10:03:55 AM
Your bottom edge is probably as representative as Mr Muncasters. Don't worry.

Hugh.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on November 04, 2013, 05:50:25 AM
The last part of faffing around before being able to glue the base together was to mill a couple of slots for the cross braces. The one next to the crank pit is at the usual casting angle, so my angle blocks come in handy for possibly the last time to hold the side at the correct slant:

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5539/10663768816_0be6096c44_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10663768816/)

Now to prep for bonding. I used the "peg and hole" method I prototyped earlier, with the addition of some threading in the holes and roughing up the mating surfaces with a small bur in the Dremel; this was more to give the epoxy somewhere to go than provide gripping, though I hope it does a bit. The threading was of the "whatever tap happens to fit" variety.  :LittleDevil:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3824/10663969343_9608e60944_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10663969343/)

The pegs were turned from random bits of small scrap, and, as before, have a flat filed on them to avoid hydro-lock on assembly. Here are all the bits after a cleaning with mineral spirits:

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5530/10663971603_1f259810bc_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10663971603/)

I did a trial assembly to make sure everything is on hand, since you have to be fairly quick once the epoxy is mixed. I used my glass plate, since this model won't fit on my surface plate, and a sheet of coated paper avoids sticking to the glass. The rod through the crank locating holes ensures that the sides are reasonably well aligned.

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5548/10663774506_2ac0c33456_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10663774506/)

No pics of the expoxying (I was busy!) but here we are after assembly, with some clamps holding things together, and lumps of cast iron to make sure things lie flat.

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2876/10663738525_ce87ea5d64_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10663738525/)

That'll sit for 24 hours or more until the expoxy is hard.

That gave me some time to think about the bearing caps! I found a bit of stock that two will fit into, and large enough to contain the radius centers. Putting one on each end makes setups easier:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2843/10663776024_011b29a258_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10663776024/)

Then I could do the main curves with the rotary table in vertical mode, using my new favorite cutter, a 1/2" carbide end mill with a 0.06" radius corner. The finish profiling was done in 0.5deg increments.

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7384/10663978563_f9f38d20e8_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10663978563/)

Four lots of that, and the top curves were done. Then the end curves were just a normal rounding job in horizontal mode; I only had time for one this evening, so here's where I'm at:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2841/10663980403_6327b60df5_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10663980403/)

These bearing caps have the same fussy profile that I did on the bearing pedestals; I have yet to mark out for those, but the process will be the same as before. The tops of the bearing caps should have oil reservoirs I think; I'm :thinking: of a rectangular recess with a nice brass pyramidal lid, something like this:

(http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2470.0;attach=9714;image)

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: GailinNM on November 04, 2013, 06:25:36 AM
That's a lot of very nice work Simon.   :ThumbsUp:
Gail in NM
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: swilliams on November 04, 2013, 09:57:09 AM
Yep, what Gail said

Steve
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on November 11, 2013, 04:45:28 AM
Slow but sure progress continues!

Got both bearing caps profiled on the rotary table:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2884/10791945406_9e925d650b_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10791945406/)

but I put this aside to focus on the base.

Inspection after the JB-Weld had cured showed a reasonably good result, but one end piece was a bit out of line and needed some cleaning up. At this point I could treat the base like a casting; take a file to the underside to get it to sit flat:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3771/10792041794_1ac88d9af3_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10792041794/)

and then take a few thou off the high spots on the upper side to I can blend things together:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2890/10791950956_3499598ea2_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10791950956/)

which required a bit more work on those curved profiles to get them to blend into the end flat. The end face also needed a lot of filing work:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7344/10792171593_d2aecaf06b_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10792171593/)

so I attacked it with my biggest file, and eventually got things blended pretty well.

Now, to the top surfaces. I planned for the top plates to be 0.25" thick, but need a little more thickness, and I want to leave some surface features there to locate the crosshead slides, the cylinder block, and the valve pivot standards. So some 5/16" plate was cut to size and marked out:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3753/10792049204_1b4b6f6e46_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10792049204/)

The corner-radius end mill was a handy way to get a radius for the surface features:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7323/10792175913_cee5636617_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10792175913/)

The underside of the upper plate needed some work too; a slight recess where the valve link pivot block is located, and some thinning around the two holes so the thickness looks more appropriate in that area.

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2818/10791930905_a99f5eb4ec_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10791930905/)

I've been thinking :thinking: for a while about how to secure these top plates for JB-Welding. I could just rely on the JB-Weld, but I want some fasteners too. I could put in temporary screws, and later drill out and fill the holes, but I worry about the screws getting stuck in there with the epoxy. So I decided to make some aluminum, countersunk screws to hold the plates down, the tops of which will be milled off later. I needed 10-12 of these, so got my rhythm going like this:

Get about 3/4" of bar projecting from the collet chuck, mark off 1/2" (thread depth) with a marker. 2-3 passes with the Al insert tool takes it down to a bit over 3/16":

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7318/10791933005_f435bf8783_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10791933005/)

Swap to another insert that happens to give me a 45deg angle, align it with the end, set the carriage end-stop using a 1/2" drill bit, do a couple of passes to go down to final diameter and get the bevel (after the first one, I can use the dials to get to final diameter):

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2847/10792181693_39b171b8cb_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10792181693/)

Swap the belts to go to low speed. Use a tailstock die holder to thread under power, stopping once to clear chips, and carefully holding the die holder by hand, letting it slip when it hits the bevel. Back off under power (low speed!).

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3686/10791965066_926754cee1_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10791965066/)

Back to high speed. Touch up the end of the threads with a file, swap to the parting tool and part off, leaving some material on the head to cut the slot:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3729/10791939235_bb7a7a9388_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10791939235/)

And repeat!

I also turned some pins from bits of scrap to pin the joints where there isn't room for a screw:

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5495/10792187293_8ddbcd0a2b_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10792187293/)

Without any support on the tailstock end, they come out with a bit of a taper, but that's just fine for what I want them for.

There that little lot, just needing some slots cutting (which I'll probably just do with a hacksaw):

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2861/10792191173_768a7a91b7_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10792191173/)

Now the next stage is to get the top plates accurately positioned on the base to drill holes for the screws and pins. I have a accurate centerline on the plates, and took some time to line up the base on the milling table:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3721/10791943785_0c35e8c900_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10791943785/)

I have a plate clamped to the milling table with the engine base sitting on top. With a bit of bar though the temporary crankshaft holes, I used an indicator to get the base aligned as accurately as I could. Then I used an edge finder on the bearing standards to find the centerline, checking my result with a parallel adjusted to fix exactly on either side between the edge finder body and the standard.

And then it was time for dinner and  :DrinkPint:

Hopefully I'll get some time during the evenings this week to get the JB-Welding done. Next steps are:

Can't wait to get this base out of the way. I think the next part will be the cylinder block, and I've almost convinced myself to make it from two lumps of cast iron which I already have, rather than ordering a single 4"x4"x2" lump. Just need to figure out how to bolt them together.

There's also the matter of the exhaust. As designed, the exhaust from both cylinders passes through a passage between them and through a hole in the base casting to...nowhere. That seems like a great way to spread an oily puddle of water over the bench! So I think I'll put an exhaust pipe under the cylinder block and exiting through a hole in the base, but with my two-part cylinder block that means part of the exhaust passage intersects the join between the two sides, which could be leaky. Not really sure if that matters for exhaust, though?  :noidea:

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on November 11, 2013, 05:51:44 AM
Here's a picture of the cylinder blocks (in my split version), with the valve plate. Note the cavity between the cylinders for exhaust. Hopefully this makes it a bit clearer what I'm talking about!

(http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2470.0;attach=9882;image)

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: swilliams on November 11, 2013, 06:35:25 AM
Nice stuff Simon, I'm enjoying your thread

Steve
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jasonb on November 11, 2013, 07:47:21 AM
Simon, think about bringing the exhaust down into the wooden display base and out the side, something like this

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Engineering/DSC04338.jpg)

Rather than all that machining to form that large exhaust passage why not leave the mating faces solid and drill mill a passage, you could go horizontally to join the two exhausts and then vertically down either half & half or offset the exhaust so it comes down in one block only to save thinking about a long gasket joint. Solid would also give more options for joining the two halves.

J
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on November 15, 2013, 06:37:00 AM
Thanks Jason, that gives me another option to think about, though there's a gap between the cylinders and the base in the middle, so I'd have to have a bit of pipe somewhere. I may decide to bring the exhaust for each cylinder out of the back of the cylinder blocks, and have a nice Y-shaped join made of copper pipe.

Quick update on the base: I finally got the epoxying done this evening  :whoohoo: so it should be cured in time for finish machining over the weekend! Nothing too exciting in the process, other than finding that one of the top plates was also banana-shaped and needed a bit of milling to sit flat.

Here I'm drilling holes for some pegs to firm up the rather skinny joint adjacent to the crank pit:

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5478/10865468345_3976f22cd9_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10865468345/)

Note the clamping arrangement with the large clamp; I need to keep the clamping force over the sides, otherwise I'll cause the plate to bow in the middle. Some drill bits ensure that the existing holes stay aligned.

A quickie fixture with some threaded, countersunk holes keep the screws in place to hacksaw the slot (I don't really care how pretty they are as they will get milled off):

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3692/10865469515_8bc152c176_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10865469515/)

and a dry run before epoxying:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3818/10865809773_864ee77bf9_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10865809773/)

Now it's all JB-Welded and sitting on the surface plate with some big lumps of cast iron on top  :Lol:

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jo on November 15, 2013, 07:46:02 AM
 :ThumbsUp: Now the difficult bit...

How long before you want to fiddle with it  :naughty:.. It really needs a couple of days

Jo
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on November 15, 2013, 03:41:31 PM
:ThumbsUp: Now the difficult bit...

How long before you want to fiddle with it  :naughty:.. It really needs a couple of days

Saturday, so it should have about 36 hours which I think is OK. Can't wait to get all the blue off and finally make this look more like a casting!

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on November 15, 2013, 09:22:01 PM
Simon, I'm following along. The Stuart build has helped me immensely on my little PM. Build, so this one I'm storing for future reference. I don't think I'd worry to much about the base. As we old Southern boys would say; " You got it glued, screwed and tattooed, forty damn different ways.  :cheers:

Whiskey
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Don1966 on November 16, 2013, 04:25:41 AM
Simon you have been busy and some how I missed a few post, but have caught up now. You have done some impressive work and it shows. Great work as usual.  :ThumbsUp:

And Jason I still love the Benson it's on my list to do.  :Love: That is when I get better at it.

Don
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: steamer on November 16, 2013, 11:08:25 AM
I haven't been in on this thread much, and a shame I haven't...I've missed a great deal of wonderfull work! :ThumbsUp:

Go Simon! :praise2:

Dave
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on November 17, 2013, 07:14:03 AM
Thanks for the comments, everyone. I'm glad I didn't lose you all with my drawn-out tales of glueing lumps of Ally together!  :ROFL:

Here's what things look like after curing, with a nice bead of epoxy around the screws suggesting that penetration is good  :ThumbsUp:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3761/10899051064_254322a42a_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10899051064/)

and, as hoped, the screws are almost invisible after milling and sanding:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3751/10898912065_9f54054fae_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10898912065/)

I milled off the overhang, and followed up with a corner-radius end mill on all the horizontal corners:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7387/10898908435_417c4596d0_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10898908435/)

and then spent some quality time with the file collection to blend all the joins. I started with a coarse file, but ground the end smooth so that it didn't ding the bottom profile if I went too far. I found that crossed 45deg strokes did a good job of taking off the material:

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5539/10898953266_cb53f3c47d_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10898953266/)

The corner edges had to be radiused by hand, as well as blending the radius up the bearing pillars, and the radius gauge came in handy for that:

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5538/10898956436_81bb13d4cc_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10898956436/)

Rubbing down with 150grit wet & dry with WD40 takes off most of the tooling and filing marks.

This still looks a bit "blocky" and not like a casting. I'm going to have to study the drawings to see whether I should adjust the radii.  :noidea:

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: tangler on November 17, 2013, 08:20:45 AM
Simon,

Lovely job.  As for the  blockiness, I guess the castings would have had some taper on them - perhaps you need to think what the patterns would have looked like and the way they would have been moulded. 

It's going to make a smashing engine as is though :ThumbsUp:

Rod
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on November 18, 2013, 04:53:53 AM
Thanks Rod! I do actually have a casting taper of about 1.25deg on all the external faces, but I probably should have used a little more.

Today I did the precision cuts on the base. First I spent a good amount of time getting accurately lined up on the milling table, using some 1-2-3 blocks against a bit of rod through the temporary crankshaft holes, and double-checking against the pop mark on the tail end. I found center between the bearing pedestals, checking with an adjustable parallel between a 1/2" end mill and the inside surface of each pedestal. The crossslide handwheel dial was zeroed, and I wrote down whether I was pushing or pulling  ;D (so easy to forget!). I also set up my poor man's DRO, a second pair of digital calipers affixed between the carriage and my home-made carriage stop, and zeroed on the center of the bearings.

Finally, cutter height was determined from the top of the temporary rod:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7405/10918565995_ca13728f72_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10918565995/)

using the "cigarette paper" technique which I use all the time (this is actually a bit of acetate wrapper from some crackers, which is about a thou thick).

I first did the light cuts to reduce the risk of the part moving, with a nice sharp end mill. The location of the crosshead slides was done, leaving some small locating projections to keep the slides parallel, and then the cyclinder block pads were also skimmed. I had to take the crosshead slides surface down a couple of extra thousandths, but I'll make that up on the slides themselves.

Then it was time for the bearing pedestals. I attacked these carefully with a 5/8" end mill, and skimmed the tops:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2888/10918624856_6636b26ebb_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10918624856/)

as well as cutting the small profile that the bearing caps fit into. Alas, I was a bit short of material on one side  :hammerbash: (was a bit too eager with the bandsawing way back), so I milled off a bit extra and I'll epoxy a bit of material on.

A test fit with a 3/4" parallel is good, so we can breath a sigh of relief  :)

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2851/10918626626_bb67ce7299_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10918626626/)

While things are set up accurately, I milled some pockets which will receive the hold-down pads:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7383/10918863693_5e3590edf1_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10918863693/)

and I drilled holes for the cylinder block studs, and crosshead slide studs. The plans say that bolts are used on the cylinder block, but it looks to me like there isn't enough clearance by the sides of the cylinder to drop a bolt in there!

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5487/10918630526_f9c7d4358b_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/10918630526/)

Those holes were all located laterally via the handle dial (lots of counting of rotations!), so I was careful to check their pre-drilled location with a rule.

I'm a little worried about stripping the threads in the aluminium when tightening things up later; I'll have to be careful! I'm also making up the fastener sizes as I go along, but I'll choose from BA sizes.

Looking through my metal stock, I realize that I don't actually have enough cast iron bar to do the cylinder block in two parts, so I'll be ordering one bit lump. At least that solves the exhaust problem! However, now that I want to use speedymetals.com, the site seems to be down  :killcomputer:

That's it for this weekend. Next, I might even get to machine something that isn't alumin(i)um.  :whoohoo:

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on November 23, 2013, 06:37:46 AM
The brown van came by today  :pinkelephant:

Among the spoils was this:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2809/11005130215_4d8bb50b83_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11005130215/)

a 20lb lump of cast iron. Most of it becomes the cylinder block.. That's gonna give the bandsaw a workout  :ROFL:

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: sbwhart on November 23, 2013, 07:36:33 AM
I've been quietly following this along Simon and you are making a first class job  :ThumbsUp:

Thanks chunk of cast iron will make your kit grunt  :ROFL:

Stew
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on November 23, 2013, 03:43:03 PM
Hi Simon

I have been enjoying the progress on your engine; very nice attention to detail.

Keep up the great work.

Dave 
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on November 25, 2013, 06:16:56 AM
The bandsaw made it through the 4" cast iron cube, with a couple of stops to cool down  :whoohoo:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3737/11043728596_56aa0d6ca2_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11043728596/)

I did this yesterday, then I was lying awake last night wondering if I'd cut it too small :paranoia: A quick check with the ruler this morning, and I think I'm OK  :ThumbsUp:

In fact the bandsaw got a good workout today too. I spent it on the crosshead slides, which look like this:

(http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2470.0;attach=10284;image)

The parts were sliced from some gray cast iron stock I had, and the bandsaw makes it easy to take fairly accurate slices, even if the clamping sometimes gets a bit creative:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2837/11043630695_eb50e11b0f_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11043630695/)

and a small vice can help with the smaller bits. I actually took the blade guide off the saw and milled off part of one side, to give me more clearance for this setup:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7446/11043819153_99705d2220_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11043819153/)

Here's part of what I ended up needing:

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5491/11043730016_3934b1ab50_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11043730016/)

The main slide bars are 1/2" x 1/4" x 3", with a 1/8" step taken out to half the width. I'm embarassed  :embarassed: to say I made a lot of rejects by milling them too thin; I think due to a combination of the stock moving in the vice, because it wasn't really flat from the sawing, combined with the blunt endmill I was using to get through the crust. The good parts, however, were squared up by milling and then the step was cut almost to depth:

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5484/11043636815_7b551904b8_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11043636815/)

I'll finish the step with the slides clamped to the table, to make really sure that the step is parallel with the bottom surface.

The slide covers have a slight edge chamfer which works out to about 7deg, so I make a quick fixture with the correct angle, which made it easy to get all the parts identical:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3757/11043825383_920df13d3c_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11043825383/)

Here they are before finishing, in situ:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7377/11043826903_88d47bcf76_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11043826903/)

I'm planning to relieve the inside corner of the slides with a small saw cut at 45deg, and put a light chamfer on all exposed edges. I was thinking about how to get the slides really smooth, then remembered that I have some estate-sale square-section grinding stones, and a quick test rubbing the part along a corner of the stone with some oil suggests that'll give me a nice finish; I just have to be careful to keep things square.

This is a vacation week for me, so the machining continues tomorrow  :pinkelephant:

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jasonb on November 25, 2013, 07:35:11 AM
Simon when you have a rough surface to clamp try putting a scrap piece of Aluminium between the part and the moving jaw which will deform to the shape of the part.

Also when cutting small parts from a block its worth machining one or two faces before cutting off from the main block then you have something flat to put against the fixed jaw.

Looking good though.

J
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Florian Eberhard on November 25, 2013, 11:14:55 AM
Hey Simon

Best you could do would be scrapping the guide...  ^-^
The Edge can either be relieved or you could make a chamfer on the edge of the slider.

Cheers
Florian
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on November 25, 2013, 04:45:34 PM
Also when cutting small parts from a block its worth machining one or two faces before cutting off from the main block then you have something flat to put against the fixed jaw.

Thanks Jason. I do remember that advice from an earlier thread of mine, but was too lazy to implement it!  :hammerbash: I shall do so today to avoid yet more rejects!

Florian: I did think about scraping. How much material should I leave on if I want to give it a try? 0.002-0.003" or so? Also, I'd have to first scrape a reference that will get me into the corner.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Florian Eberhard on November 25, 2013, 05:15:07 PM
Hey Simon

0.001" is too much I think. Especially for such small things. I think you will take away something around 0.0001" every pass, so it would take quite long to complete.

I would recommend to take a piece of cast iron you don't need and give it a try. Ohterwise it is difficult to judge how it is going. (Also as everyone will do it on its own way and therefore not take away the same amount as someone else does)

Oh and for scraping you will of course need to releive the edge.

Florian
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on November 26, 2013, 04:26:14 AM
To form the remaining two slides, I took Jason's advice and squared up the stock before sawing it off:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3754/11061045205_e5383afeb9_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11061045205/)

(interesting formation from the chips and magnetic field there!)

What a difference! It was so much easier to quickly get the parts down to size. The step in the new slides was rough-milled. Now all four slides needed the step cut to final size. To do this accurately I clamped down a bit of Ally, and with a good end mill milled a slot just wider than the slides, zeroing the dials on the depth, and on the front face. Now the part was located in the slot against that face and clamped, so I know where to move the cutter to get to final dimensions. This method ensures that everything is aligned.

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2881/11061046615_0c0149fbc3_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11061046615/)

To relieve the corner, I used a slitting saw, but holding the part was a bit of a head-scratcher :noidea: since the clamps always got in the way. If in doubt, make a fixture  ;)

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5530/11061144626_9dcea2eb55_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11061144626/)

Here I'm using a V-block to get the 45deg angle on the fixture, and milling a slot in that that will hold the slide. (Now that I look at that clamping setup, it's not great; the upper part of the V-block on the left isn't supported.)

Now I can clamp that fixture down, slot the part into it, then clamp a bit of Al plate pushing the part into the slot. The cutting forces aren't large here, and it worked out fine:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3713/11061169394_f584a0449b_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11061169394/)

After a bit of rubbing on a file and them some 150 wet & dry, things are looking ship-shape:

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5499/11061171024_7cba629a72_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11061171024/)

but to show that all wasn't plain sailing, here's what happens if you forget to tighten up the vise before edge milling:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7344/11061149116_b2e778e501_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11061149116/)

 :facepalm: :hammerbash:

Luckily I had my stash of undersized chunks to make another top plate from  ;D

All the remains for the slides is some finishing work, and the holes drilling, which means I have to decide what size fasteners to use.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on November 30, 2013, 05:57:42 AM
A little more work done! Slides and covers are drilled, base is tapped 5BA. This is a temporary assembly with screws, but of course I'll use studs to keep Jo happy  :LittleDevil: and maybe with "one size smaller" nuts.

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7412/11128102713_87c6cfcc9f_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11128102713/)

I also got the valve bracket bosses machined to size, and rubbed things down with a bit of wet&dry to remove the toolmarks.

Time to start on the cylinder block, I think  :stir:

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on November 30, 2013, 03:49:24 PM
Nice job on the cross head guides Simon :ThumbsUp:

Dave
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Kim on November 30, 2013, 04:44:40 PM
Hey Simon, you've been doing a lot of great work here!  :ThumbsUp:
I haven't commented much, but have been following along. And will continue to follow your progress! :)
Thanks for taking the time to share it with us!
Kim
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on November 30, 2013, 06:23:59 PM
Thanks Kim and Dave! I'm going to try to be a bit less long-winded from now, I think. I have a feeling I'm boring people  :embarassed:

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jasonb on November 30, 2013, 06:28:51 PM
I'm not bored :)
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Kim on November 30, 2013, 06:41:04 PM
Simon, you're certainly not boring me!  Though I'm fascinated by all the projects people do here, I learn the most when people describe what the do in detail.
But it does take time, I understand that.  So do what your heart moves you to do.  Just know that there are people out here (like me) who are reading your posts and find them very interesting!
Thanks Simon,
Kim
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Don1966 on November 30, 2013, 06:54:58 PM
That's a great project Simon and indeed a very interesting project. You have my attention bud, nice work.

Don
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: tvoght on November 30, 2013, 10:14:41 PM
I'm watching every step Simon and enjoying your great work. A little longer-winded wouldn't hurt anything in fact.

--Tim
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: vcutajar on December 01, 2013, 05:58:27 AM
I am not bored Simon.  Keep up your descriptions and good work.

Vince
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on December 01, 2013, 06:45:19 AM
Glad to hear that you're not all bored to  :'(  :Lol: The never ending saga continues...

As promised, today was "muck with the 4"x3"x2" lump of cast iron" day   :insane:

It's important that the faces end up at right angles to eachother, and I didn't quite trust my vise's fixed jaw to be perfectly vertical, so I started out using an angle plate to hold the block:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2814/11146000425_0bf7b592d0_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11146000425/)

Crust was taken off with a roughing mill, additional material with a 5/8" end mill, with the final few thou via the flycutter (here's an action shot!). That's a fair amount of reach for the toolbit, and I did get a bit of singing, but nothing too serious. I was getting nice cross-marks from the flycutter too, indicating that my milling column is trammed correctly.

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3723/11146179013_45beea9bbf_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11146179013/)

When it came time to cut a second surface that had to be perpendicular to a finished surface, I spent some time faffing around with the angle plate and an indicator, since there was a discrepancy between setups that I did on the surface plate and after bolting down on the milling table. I had a "this feels wrong" moment when I started shimming between the block and the angle plate, even though I'd already checked the angle plate for accuracy. Finally I gave up on the angle plate, and just went back to my screwless vise (which is a nice toolmaker-made vise, so I should have trusted it all along  :Lol: ), and the sides ended up nicely perpendicular.

However I did have a minor problem when doing the ends in the vise; all that height gave a lot of leverage from the cutting forces, and the block moved. A business-card shim helped:

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5484/11146180413_51416104ab_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11146180413/)

There's a bit of a ding, but luckily it's on the side face that gets taken down later anyway to make room for cladding.

So here we are, in situ:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7390/11146067424_42f67e70b8_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11146067424/)

It's within a few thou on all dimensions and nicely square  :whoohoo:

Now, how to bore? The cylinder length, at 3", is longer than my quill extension, so boring in the mill is out. That leave the faceplate, or using the carriage. I contemplated the faceplate:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2852/11146036176_fa0f9eeab0_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11146036176/)

but that's an awful lot of iron to have swinging around, and I couldn't see how to clamp it down. So I'm going to bore on the carriage:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7357/11146069934_910aa93e7d_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11146069934/)

I spent a lot of time getting everything lined up, and using the adjustable parallels to get the correct center height. Then I realized that I didn't have a plug gauge to check the bore size, so to avoid the tempation to just wing it, I tore the setup down (after thinking about it for a few minutes  :Lol:)

Tomorrow I'll turn a dummy piston, then set this whole thing up again. I think I'll also make a steel bar to replace that bit of Al across the top; I'm worried that the drilling forces will cause the part to tilt up, so I need it firmly clamped down!

I also contemplated making a boring bar driven by the chuck and supported by the tailstock, with a bit of tool steel and a grub screw adjustment, but then realized that I could use my small boring head and get just enough offset. Let's hope that works, so I don't have to tear down this setup mid-boring!

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jo on December 01, 2013, 08:13:46 AM

I spent a lot of time getting everything lined up, and using the adjustable parallels to get the correct center height. Then I realized that I didn't have a plug gauge to check the bore size,  :facepalm:

Sounds like you need a second lathe  :LittleDevil:

Watching with interest. I do like those Vise mounting clamps I think I have commented on them before.. I think I need to make a set for Sexy  :naughty:

Jo
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Florian Eberhard on December 01, 2013, 08:31:21 AM
Hey Simon

I would use the boring bar.  The probability of getting any vibrations with the boring head is quite higher compared to the supported boring bar.
(Stability with support is around 16 times higher than without !!!)

Regards
Florian
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jasonb on December 01, 2013, 08:41:21 AM
Yes I'd also go with the between ctrs bar, the boring head over that length may chatter and /or give a tapered bore.

Regarding the drill tilting the work as you drill, you can bring the tailstock upto the back of the block and apply gentle pressure to keep it in contact as you drill which balances out the forces.

J
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: sbwhart on December 01, 2013, 08:44:25 AM
Simon

Another way to bore a twin cylinder block is to use an angle plate attached to your lathe face plate provided your lathe has enough swing. Like this

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Potty%20Over%20Crank%20Wall%20Engine/100_4547.jpg) (http://s431.photobucket.com/user/sbwhart/media/Potty%20Over%20Crank%20Wall%20Engine/100_4547.jpg.html)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Potty%20Over%20Crank%20Wall%20Engine/100_4550.jpg) (http://s431.photobucket.com/user/sbwhart/media/Potty%20Over%20Crank%20Wall%20Engine/100_4550.jpg.html)

You just reposition the angle plate for each bore without taking the cylinder off the angle plate that way they must be square and parallel to each other.

Using the lathe bed method as you plan is just as good provided your set up is up to it.

Keep up the good work

Stew
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: tangler on December 01, 2013, 11:20:38 AM
Simon,

Plus 1 for the between centres boring bar.  These can be tricky to get an exact bore size but I suggest that the bore in the cylinders are nominal and you will be making a piston to fit.  When drilling through prior to boring I'd go a stage further than Jason and use the tailstock to push the job with the saddle free.  That way all the forces are axial and the tailstock is designed to take it.  The forces when drilling are much greater than any generated when turning.

I sometimes share you concerns with my Wyvern build that we are posting into the void but I have decided that people are reading even if they don't comment - I know I don't comment very much and there are only so many times you can type "Way to go - still watching and learning"

So, way to go Simon - still watching and learning  :)

Cheers,
Rod
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Stilldrillin on December 01, 2013, 01:45:27 PM
Simon,
I sometimes share you concerns with my Wyvern build that we are posting into the void but I have decided that people are reading even if they don't comment - I know I don't comment very much and there are only so many times you can type "Way to go - still watching and learning"

So, way to go Simon - still watching and learning  :)

Cheers,
Rod

Simon, Rod.

"Way to go - still watching and learning".   :)

From, one of the Quiet Majority.......   (http://freesmileyface.net/smiley/respect/respect-048.gif) (http://freesmileyface.net/free-respect-smileys.html)

David D
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on December 01, 2013, 04:27:42 PM
Thanks for all the good advice! The between-centers boring bar wins  :ThumbsUp: I'll have to see if I have any stock of the right size; I need about 7/8" I think, since my drills go up to 1". I'm thinking of a making a 40TPI grub screw, which gives 25 thou per turn (which also means that I'll have to find or make a slotted screwdriver with a bend, for easier eyeballing of angle. I think a cheap screwdriver is going to have a date with Mr Vise). For a toobit, I have some bits of what I think are carbide (but no green wheel to grind them), or maybe an ex-end mill or drill will provide.

Stew, thanks for the suggestion of the angle plates. I'll have a play later, but I don't think mine are wide enough to get enough bolts around to hold things.

Also, pushing with the tailstock when drilling: good idea!  :ThumbsUp:

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on December 01, 2013, 04:33:49 PM
Sounds like you need a second lathe  :LittleDevil:
I wish! First I'd have to move house to get more room :D

Watching with interest. I do like those Vise mounting clamps I think I have commented on them before.. I think I need to make a set for Sexy  :naughty:
They work OK, but the limited room on my milling table limits my options. First, I wish I'd made them from steel. Second, there isn't a lot of material holding the pin that slots into the vise holes, since the gap between the vise side and the table slots is small. This hasn't been a problem so far, but I can imagine that over-tightening them could deform the clamp and loosen the pin. I did consider a design that pivoted on the other axis, but I think I rejected it because it didn't work if I wanted to place my vise in the other orientation (which is also why these clamps have slots, not just a hole).

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: swilliams on December 02, 2013, 10:46:25 PM
Looking forward to seeing more about the cylinder boring Simon. Looks like a fun job, hope it turns out well.

Steve
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on December 02, 2013, 11:23:28 PM
Thanks Steve! I have a bit of 7/8" bar coming from Enco for a boring bar, and some green wheels to grind some little carbide bits that came with some other boring bars (yes, I know the dust from grinding carbide is toxic!). Also got some 32 TPI grub screws from the hardware store, which should suffice to hold and adjust the bit (forgot dig through my taps to make sure i have taps for those  :facepalm2:).

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: tvoght on December 03, 2013, 12:41:57 AM
SImon,
  I just realized that using the between-centers boring bar, it'll be difficult to use a plug gauge as you intended. Have you an idea for gauging the diameter?

--Tim
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on December 03, 2013, 01:16:55 AM
SImon,
  I just realized that using the between-centers boring bar, it'll be difficult to use a plug gauge as you intended. Have you an idea for gauging the diameter?

Good point!

I was thinking that the between-centers boring bar was repeatable enough that I could just remove the tailstock and slide the carriage far enough to get into the bore, especially if I keep the boring bar held in the three-jaw chuck on the headstock end. Seems reasonable?

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: tvoght on December 03, 2013, 01:25:46 AM
That does sound reasonable. A little inconvenient, but yes I see how since the boring bar will have a center, it's safe to move the tailstock periodically for a check.

--Tim
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: steamer on December 03, 2013, 02:49:09 AM
Looking good Simon!.....Plus one for the between centers boring bar, and don't loose your mind if it comes out a thou or so over or under, the geometry is more important.

For drilling, put a plywood pad over the end of your drill chuck, and push the carriage with  the tailstock during the drilling operation.....like Jason said.   That will keep the forces in line during the drilling operation.

Dave
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jasonb on December 03, 2013, 07:35:15 AM
Yes you should be able to remove and replace the bar for testing. Or make a ring gauge that will fit over the bar to speed things up, just leave it at the end of the bar and slide into place when rhe lathe is stopped.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Florian Eberhard on December 03, 2013, 08:57:24 AM
Or make a ring gauge that will fit over the bar to speed things up,...

I was almost going to propose this but - someone's been faster than me.  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on December 03, 2013, 04:59:23 PM
Good idea on the ring.

Now, how should I finish the bore? My plan was to use cast iron pistons with piston rings, but I suspect that this is an unusual piston size (1-3/8") and finding pre-made piston rings would be hard. I'm willing to try making my own (I found http://modelenginenews.org/techniques/piston_rings.html (http://modelenginenews.org/techniques/piston_rings.html)).

I have a cylinder hone, so could use that, or could make up a lap and lap the bore. I seem to recall that with cast iron piston rings, a perfect finish on the bore isn't essential because they'll bed down of their own accord, but is a honed finish a good starting point?

And how much should I bore the cylinder undersize for the different finishing options?
The boring bar material arrives today, so I might be able to make the bar this evening!  :cheers:

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: steamer on December 03, 2013, 05:03:49 PM
Bringing an OD to size is pretty easy...in the home shop....but the same is not true on the ID.   I tend to make the bore first, and then fit the OD after.  Then if it's .001" over...no big deal.

I adjust the piston, or the tailstock quill ::) to suite.

Dave
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on December 03, 2013, 05:12:46 PM
Bringing an OD to size is pretty easy...in the home shop....but the same is not true on the ID.   I tend to make the bore first, and then fit the OD after.  Then if it's .001" over...no big deal.

I adjust the piston, or the tailstock quill ::) to suite.

Thanks Dave. Just to clarify, I haven't made the pistons yet. I'm just being anal and want my bore to be on size :)

One consideration I forgot was wear in the bore (this engine was originally designed for real work, and as such Muncaster made sure that worn parts could be easily replaced). Piston rings could eventually wear a step in the bore, which is possibly why Muncaster doesn't mention or show them in the original articles? In fact he doesn't talk about piston material or fitting at all, as far as I can see.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on December 03, 2013, 05:51:19 PM
Hi Simon

Debolt Machine has 1 3/8"X 3/32" cast iron  rings for $5.00 ea.

Great folks to deal with BTW.

Dave

http://www.deboltmachine.com/id4.html
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jasonb on December 03, 2013, 06:06:05 PM
Bore it to 1.374" and hone out the last 0.001", assuming you are getting a good finish off the tool.

Reeves also do 1 3/8" rings but its not hard to make your own.

J
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on December 06, 2013, 06:54:30 AM
I'm almost ready to do the boring now  :whoohoo:

I made myself a ring gauge out of a bit of cast iron bar:

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5486/11232486043_7c03c36208_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11232486043/)

The first ring was cut undersize (but I can use it as an early warning), but the second ring is pretty spot-on:

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5521/11232378465_74acce0b6c_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11232378465/)

This also gave me a chance to see how my big Chinese drills behave on cast iron. They cut it OK, but really want to go off-center, so I can see myself using a boring head to re-center things in between drills possibly.

The boring bar is about 10" of 7/8" 4140 hot-roll which was banana-shaped  :hammerbash:, so a bit of fiddling with the steady rest was required to clean it up. To hold the boring bit I drilled through #8-32 tapping size, then drilled and and reamed for 3/16" to about 3/4 of the way through. The end of the hole was then tapped for the set screw. I then turned the bar 90deg, and drilled and tapped for the hold-down screw.

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2885/11232488153_19a2c035c6_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11232488153/)

The toolbit is a bit of 3/16" carbide with a flat, which had a chipped end. The brown truck brought some green wheels yesterday, so I fitted those onto the grinder and used them to clean up the toolbit. However, I wasn't able to avoid some tiny chips on the cutting edge; is there a trick to getting a good edge on carbide? Can it be honed in the same way as HSS?

I should probably give this carbide bit a test before I use it in earnest. I suspect someone's going to tell me that I'd get a better finish from HSS  :D

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jasonb on December 06, 2013, 07:38:55 AM
I'd grind it to a profile more like a turning tool about 10deg front and 10deg rear, as you have it its more like a threading tool so will give a fine thread, also some top rake. Oh and HSS for the last few cuts.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Florian Eberhard on December 06, 2013, 08:00:19 AM
Hi Simon

Additional to jasons advice I would make a not too small radius to the cutting edge (in about 0.5mm or similar)
That gives a very smooth surface if combined with a fine feed.
Though if you are going to lap the bore with a lapping mandrel, the surface doesn't have to bee mirror-like before lapping.

Florian

Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: fumopuc on December 06, 2013, 11:00:11 AM
Hi Simon, now I have had the time to look through the whole thread first time.
I like your way and style to build an engine very much.
It shows very good that with simple methods the final things can look like the originals.
I will follow your up dates every time.
Achim
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on December 06, 2013, 05:11:41 PM
Thanks Achim!

Jason and Florian, thanks for the advice. Jason, I thought that zero top rake was normal for cutting cast iron?

I read up and see that a diamond hone is the best way to get a good finish on carbide tools, and my estate-sale grinder came with a diamond wheel, so I'll give that a try!

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Florian Eberhard on December 06, 2013, 05:21:59 PM
Hi Simon

If you have very unstable condition, it can help to give a little top rake. (I would try with 5° for example)
The Reason is the easier flow of the chips when having a smaller wedge angle (and therefore smaller cutting forces)

Florian
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on December 07, 2013, 05:43:48 PM
I gave the carbide cutter a trial run last night (boring the ring gauge) and it promptly chipped. I might just use HSS from the get-go, just have to find something to grind down.

Would oil-hardened drill rod also work as a cutter?

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jasonb on December 07, 2013, 05:47:11 PM
An old centre drill or milling cutter will grind up OK. Drill rod maybe OK but could dull a bit quicker.

J
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jo on December 07, 2013, 05:48:20 PM
Would oil-hardened drill rod also work as a cutter?

Yesterday I have happily cut a dovetail in cast iron using water quenched drill rod.

Jo
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on December 09, 2013, 04:37:22 AM
Had a very boring day today...and it was a success  :whoohoo:

First I raided my broken tools box for a bit of 3/16" HSS, and found a broken BA tap with the right diameter, so I ground a bit of a groove where I wanted it to break, and broke it in the vise (covered with a cloth, hit it with a hammer!), then ground it down. It's the one on the right here:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3822/11281591635_fb7def187a_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11281591635/)

with the carbide on the left. The only critical dimension was that the flat at the end needed to be at the same depth as that on the carbide, because I drilled the hole in the boring bar to put this flat on center.

Jason, I put angles on both sides so that I could take boring passes in both directions, at least for roughing. Here it is in situ

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5484/11281626976_d8dcb1506f_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11281626976/)

I set up the cylinder block again in the vise, and got everything dialled in. However, I wasn't happy with my adjustable parallels under the block, as I measured just under a thou difference between one end and the other on the larger parallel. So I trimmed down a couple of bits of aluminum plate, holding them in the vise at the locations where they would be used (note the Sharpie marks on them the two bits of plate, and corresponding marks on the vise):

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3747/11281700913_a83769173b_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11281700913/)

After measuring the center height of my lathe, I could compute how tall these parallels needed to be to give me my correct hole center. Milling them in situ ensure the correct height, and accurate flat tops for the workpiece to sit on.

Here's my final setup, complete with the a nice steel clamping bar on top, with holes matching my T-slot spacing. That bar ensures that the block is held down tight onto the parallels. I'm checking the center height with a wobbler:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3751/11281584055_d45326bb9c_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11281584055/)

And we drill! I started with a spotting drill, then drilled with something around 1/4", working my way up by roughly 3/64" intervals.

The flutes on the smaller drills weren't long enough to provide chip clearance near the bottom of the hole, and this is what happens
if you don't have enough chip clearance and the drill seizes  :hammerbash:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3762/11281714423_363a3af82e_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11281714423/)

Luckily the belts would slip on the lathe before anything bad happened :) After that I was more cautious and peck-drilled to clear chips.

Pushing the part with the tailstock ram worked a treat.  :ThumbsUp: I used my tailstock die holder as a pusher, since it has a convenient hole in the center that allowed clearance for the drills to emerge from the block.

Eventually I made it up to the cheap Chinese Silver and Deming drills I got at a yard sale:

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5481/11281632126_959ff2bea0_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11281632126/)

and things got a bit dicey. These things have so much runout you wouldn't believe it  :o. As a result, the side flutes don't clear the chips properly, and they get wedged around the sides, causing sticking:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3784/11281716493_8849dc2d61_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11281716493/)

You can see that I took a file to it to increase the clearance, and find I could easily file here; seems like only the tips are hardened?

After those big bad drills it was a relief to get to the boring! I set up the boring bar between the 3-jaw chuck and a live center, and started with the carbide bit. I found a half turn of the adjustment screw (32 TPI, so 0.03125" per turn, 16thou for a half turn) was good for a roughing pass, with the lathe running at 210RPM and using the power feed. I cut in both directions while roughing. The chips look good!

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5471/11281665554_1a02295959_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11281665554/)

I'm glad I marked out the diameter; it made it easy to decide when to switch to the HSS bit at the point where I had maybe 3-4 passes to go. I'm also really glad that my ring gauge had two diameters about 6 thou apart. Here the first slips in:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7437/11281712183_fb6a64ebb6_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11281712183/)

so I know I need to advance the tool by about 3 thou. At this late stage I used an indicator to measure tool advance:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3751/11281718323_af5fc1c712_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11281718323/)

and found that I could easily adjust to a few tenths this way. I made a final spring cut at the end, but there was almost no spring with this rigid setup. When I was more organized on the second bore, I also made sure to only do the final cuts in one direction (moving towards the headstock), since the power feed can cant the carriage slightly.

When the first bore was done, I used both an indicator and the dials to move the crosslide by the required 2" (got 10thou of disagreement :o and went with the indicator), then checked center with the wobbler on the second bore. Drilling and boring went much as before, and I was lucky to get the second bore almost a dead match for the first. A bore gauge shows them both close to 1.375", so I'll take that! I'm also quite happy with the finish; I think they'll hone nicely.

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3818/11281601715_4ed0723642_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11281601715/)

Phew! Feels like a hurdle cleared to get that done  :pinkelephant:

Next is making a mandrel to hold the block while I do some shaping of the outside on the rotary table.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: tvoght on December 09, 2013, 05:04:23 AM
Excellent.

--Tim
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: vcutajar on December 09, 2013, 07:43:11 AM
Well done Simone.

Vince
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: GailinNM on December 09, 2013, 01:10:02 PM
Great tutorial on your boring setup Simon.
Thanks.
Gail in NM
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on December 09, 2013, 01:23:13 PM
Nice work Simon


Dave
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Don1966 on December 09, 2013, 07:40:06 PM
Simon, thats a nice setup and like you I hold my breath till the last hole is done.

Don
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Roger B on December 09, 2013, 07:51:51 PM
Good and interesting stuff to bear in mind when I bore out my next cylinder  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on December 16, 2013, 06:59:01 AM
This cylinder block is becoming more like a casting now, after lots of profiling work.

But first, we need a way to easily locate cylinder bores on the rotary table, so I made a mandrel, first turning a 1/2" diameter on one end to fit my rotary table spindle (in an MT2 collet), and then holding by that to turn the outer diameter to a nice fit to the cylinders:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3789/11397459886_a130e4b2d9_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11397459886)

Now I could use it to see how far off my cylinder bores are:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7425/11397454235_06a2204059_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11397454235)

Looks like I'm 2 thou off, which I can live with  :cartwheel:

Now, each side has material removed to reveal the curve of the cylinder. I do some rough milling first, then I'll use the rotary table to get the curve. I made myself a roughing chart in my CAD program:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2873/11397462476_af9129d402_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11397462476)

After a few passes with the 3/16" ball end mill, I realized that things would be much quicker if I removed the bulk of the material with a larger end mill:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2885/11397463636_634cf9248a_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11397463636/)

Getting some nice chips there!

This is after roughing out with the ball-end mill, which I used because it's more forgiving if you make mistakes (circular dimple rather than sharp-edged hole!):

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3711/11397465076_6fbc74e084_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11397465076/)

OK, now we can set up on the rotary table, using the mandrel for easy centering:

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5521/11397484874_f8ce07ecf7_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11397484874/)

and a flat-ended end mill makes nice work of the convex surfaces:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7448/11397585613_0ab25161c5_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11397585613/)

I did facets every 2deg on the finish pass, which should be relatively easy to sand down to a smooth surface.

Finally I did a pass around the edges using a longer ball-end mill, this one a mystery cutter obtained in some job lot, but relatively sharp:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7373/11397469596_9185cd925a_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11397469596/)

I needed the length for clearance, but it means this cutter sure does like to flex! Repeated passes over the same surface would keep cutting, so care was needed!

Lather, rinse, repeat and the other side was done. Now to the underside. Although this will never be seen, I still wanted the cylinder curvature to show up here to give the illusion of this being a casting, and there's a ridge down the middle through which the exhaust comes out.

Again I removed the bulk of the material with a 3/8" cutter (with a small edge radius; I'm getting fond of radiused cutters!):

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7409/11397588543_f7af5cd455_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11397588543/)

Done, leaving some material for the radii:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7368/11397465845_b128416f8c_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11397465845/)

While I had the vise set up, I did the operations on the top surface too: drilling for the exhaust, and cutting out the steam channels.

Space is a bit tight between the cylinders, so I wanted an oval hole 5/16" by about 1/2". That meant drilling two intersecting holes, which is always a bit hairy. I drilled both holes out until they joined:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7319/11397591323_e1ef2ffbb6_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11397591323/)

but of course the next drill up stated to wander into the other hole, so I had to switch to an end mill to finish the job (and go in from both top and bottom, since it's a deep hole):

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5490/11397592823_53cb690125_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11397592823/)

Muncaster designed this engine to be relatively easy to make, so he avoided drilling steam ports, and instead use a valve plate over channels in the cylinder casting. So I have to mill some channels:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3746/11397476996_01dda23a7d_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11397476996/)

Here's the exhaust channel connected to the previously drilled hole:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7333/11397496414_da0420e6b7_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11397496414/)

and you can see that I've already cut the 1/8"-wide cylinder ports.

This final steps today were profiling the never-to-be-seen underside bits:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2809/11397597603_056cdcb1c4_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11397597603/)

Here I got smarter and used a narrow end mill, which makes it possible to get further into the corners when rounding. There's something very satisfying about seeing a nice round profile emerge from a roughly milled pocket  :pinkelephant:

Both sides done, and all that's left on this underside is a trip around the edge of the second pocket with the ball-end mill:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2820/11397482056_5a3a136ab5_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11397482056/)

That exhaust port will be covered by a gland connecting to a bit of copper pipe (3/8"?) with a 90deg bend which will exit through the base. According to Alan Stepney, 3/8" is about the right size (http://www.alanstepney.info/page19.html) here.

What's next? Lots of fettling on the cylinder block, and some holes to be drilled to locate it on the base. Then I think I'll do cylinder covers and/or the valve plate.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: tangler on December 16, 2013, 09:04:52 AM
Simon,

That's a really impressive investment of effort and skill into 1 lump of iron.  I'd have been shaking like a leaf on the final cuts!  Very nice.

Rod
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Kim on December 16, 2013, 03:51:54 PM
Boy, that's a lot of very nice work Simon!  :ThumbsUp: I like how you carved that out, very ingenious!
Kim
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on December 16, 2013, 05:19:31 PM
I realized while lying in bed this morning that I probably should have left pads for cylinder drain cocks on the underside  :thinking: Muncaster doesn't show any on this engine, which is a bit surprising. We might be seeing how well JB-Weld sticks to cast iron  :hammerbash:

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Don1966 on December 16, 2013, 06:55:11 PM
Simon like the others, that is a whole lot of carving bud. Most impressive though I have to admit.  :ThumbsUp:

Don
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Roger B on December 16, 2013, 07:24:23 PM
That's a lot of metal moved. Good stuff  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Florian Eberhard on December 16, 2013, 09:22:07 PM
Hey Simon

You could either solder them - or if you dont want to heat it up - fit the drain cocks to the base, below the cylinder block and connect them with a piece of tube to the cylinders using a banjo (or a flange with the tube going off at the side) on the lower side of the cylinders.

That is also quite realistic because on a real machine, i guess they would have put the drain cocks to the lowest point of the cylinders to get all the water out.

Regards Florian
ps: You could also fit them to the cylinder covers...? Though this would be quite unusual...
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on December 16, 2013, 10:17:08 PM
Thanks Florian. I might have enough depth left to screw in drain cocks, and the appearance doesn't really matter; they will be hidden. I will have to fashion some kind of linkage to open and close them though.

I don't have a beefy enough torch to heat up this whole block for soldering. Would you advise against JB-Weld on cast iron?

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Florian Eberhard on December 16, 2013, 11:02:42 PM
Simon, I don't have any experience with JB-Weld so I can't tell you anything about that.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on December 25, 2013, 07:25:52 AM
 :Jester: Merry Christmas everyone!  :Jester: May your solder always go where you want it, may your saw-cuts be straight, and may your turning be chatter-free!

Of course the Christmas break means a bit of shop time, so Muncaster progress continues!

The exhaust channel got a bit of rounding, followed by sculpting with a grinding stone in the Dremel:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3769/11542915133_c3f6d80b49_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11542915133/)

and here is a shot to show more clearly the cylinder ports:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3830/11542905146_595d8f9eef_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11542905146/)

I felt like doing some turning, so decided to do the cylinder covers next. I didn't have any 2" diameter cast iron rod, so trimmed the corners off a bit of bar and used that instead:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7308/11542829045_084c8fe03d_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11542829045/)

An HSS toolbit managed the interrupted cut pretty well, and seemed happier with a deeper cut (less interruption, I suppose):

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7360/11542869224_c493e8b4f1_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11542869224/)

Turning this bit of bar was weird, though. There's a definite skin 1/4"-1/2" deep with a different crystal structure which cuts with a different sound, so I kept thinking that the bar had moved off center. When I bought this bar (from Speedy Metals) it already had an old saw-cut on one edge, so I'm wondering now whether it was reject off-cut. Still, it'll serve for some cylinder covers.

I debated about which way round to turn things, and decided that the inner flange and the center hole were most critical, plus I could hold the part by the inner flange for finishing the outside. So here's the first cover with piston rod glad:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3677/11542977803_7bf8420333_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11542977803/)

As you can see I was getting quite a bit of chatter in some areas, but nothing critical. Getting into the neck area required a long HSS bit that I ground a while back for a crankshaft:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3775/11542832355_07a17ab8e4_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11542832355/)

It had quite a bit of side flex, so I angled the tool to keep cutting mainly on the front edge. Also here the compound is angled over about 4deg to put a slight taper on the part.

I wasn't willing to try my luck parting off, so went to the bandsaw to cut off the part:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2836/11542872234_07a0193c4c_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11542872234/)

which also removes less material than a parting tool would.

On the outer cylinder covers I wanted a bit of a domed profile in the center. There's no way I could get this radius with a ball-turning setup, so I cut a series of flats by setting the compound at angles between 10deg and 2deg, and blended them with emery cloth. To finish the outer surfaces of both pairs of covers, I used the soft jaws in the 3-jaw chuck, boring a step in the jaws to hold the inner flange (which is more accurate than the outer edge):

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2861/11542969326_177cc5841e_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11542969326/)

Here's the result of the profiling (left) and after sanding (right). It's a bit more subtle than I wanted, but I think enough to avoid the flat look:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3721/11542837285_7bbd2235b7_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11542837285/)

and the set of covers:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3717/11542980853_c82bc80c69_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11542980853/)

The inner covers need boring for the piston rod gland, and then they'll get shaped with the help of some filing buttons.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jasonb on December 25, 2013, 08:34:37 AM
Simon another option for the drain cocks is to place them in the cylinder covers, this would also add a bit of visual interest as well if they were linked as pairs. Or the actual front and rear faces of the block if you fancy drilling some angled passages.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on December 25, 2013, 05:22:31 PM
Thanks Jason! Those certainly look like better options that trying to JB-Weld lumps of cast iron to the underside!

Do you have any more images of that last John Fowler engine? It looks like a good source of inspiration for the Muncaster, but I wasn't able to find any more images of engines like this online.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jasonb on December 25, 2013, 05:45:00 PM
Not the same one but similar Fowler offerings, I quite fancy the one with the trunk guides and the horizontal governor. The undertype photos show the linkages between the drain cocks.

Also keep a look out in ME as Anthony Mount has a new design for a Garrett along the same lines as this


http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/File:Im1881Env52-p041b.jpg
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: steamer on December 25, 2013, 06:03:29 PM
That's a nice looking engine Jason!   I too like that first one!

Dave
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: fumopuc on December 26, 2013, 07:46:22 AM
Hi Simon, great job. Still watching.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Don1966 on December 26, 2013, 01:53:16 PM
I agree with the others Simon nice work and a nice engine. I am still following as well.

Don
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on December 28, 2013, 07:23:07 AM
Jason, those images gave me quite a bit to think about, and they've enabled me to figure out how to finish the top of the main bearing caps with some oil boxes  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: Did you get them all from Grace's Guide (http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/)? My searches on Fowler didn't turn up that many  :(

I did some futzing around with the valve plate, but I'll document that when it's further along. It's currently on hold while I wait for some <1/8" end mills for the slots.

So I decided to machine some bronze for a change  :whoohoo:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7304/11598901366_cb66576559_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11598901366/)

This is a nice bit of Bunting bronze which I'm using for the main bearings. (I didn't machine it hanging out like that; I pulled it out for the photo so you can see the markings on the bar.)

The bearings are roughly 1" cubes, split, with flanges. So the first set of operations was to square up the bar. Made a flat face, then put that against the fixed jaw and milled a second face etc. Here I'm on the final face:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2827/11598902476_31273df1dc_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11598902476/)

and then off to the bandsaw to cut off two chunks:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7348/11598903846_3125452966_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11598903846/)

(I'm really appreciating this bandsaw!). Now we side-mill the sawn faces:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2846/11598323593_e15588fb45_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11598323593/)

which should make them reasonably perpendicular to the other faces. I actually took the inside and outside surfaces down to final size here, but I probably should have left them oversize in all dimensions until after splitting and soldering, as that operation could cause the two halves to become skewed.

Then they were split in the bandsaw. A slightly tricky setup here; note that I'm using a bit of card to hold the part in the vise (as I did for all the bronze machining) to avoid slipping:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7343/11598117435_1ff63d82b9_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11598117435/)

You can't see it, but I milled off the back surface of the left blade guide casting for cases just like this where every bit of clearance is valuable.

Two splits:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2881/11598453604_2d6b6dc388_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11598453604/)

I'm pretty close to the limit on the lower half of one, but I'm figuring a 1/32" gap on the finished part, so still have a few thou spare.

These were then (poorly) soft-soldered together with electrical solder. I would have got a better joint by fluxing the faces first, but instead just relied on the flux in the solder. I think they'll hold though. Then I stamped them to assign them to their final sides on the engine:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3667/11598456404_ac86efdb69_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11598456404/)

and rounded off four edges on each with a corner-rounding end mill:

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5496/11598331053_6d2b58d8dc_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11598331053/)

At this point I needed to know the flange thicknesses required to put the inner faces of the bearings equidistant from the centerline. I clamped a parallel in the crosshead slides to give me a surface to indicate on, then shimmed up the base to get things level (I can't trust the external surfaces, because of warping of the side parts during base construction).

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7316/11598913676_7702fdf0b5_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11598913676/)

Around this time I had a bit of a butt-clenching moment thinking that I'd put the slides 0.01" off center, but after I'd shimmed up the base to get it level, things measured up to within a few thou  :pinkelephant:

So with a bit of math I know how thick the inner flanges need to be to get me a centered gap, and with the inside face against the fixed jaw, milled the instep around the bearing which resulted in this:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7445/11598125505_cdf80d1c6b_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11598125505/)

Yup, the flange was 0.155" :) I've taken to writing dimensions and amount to remove on parts, and it really helps to avoid mistakes!

With a bit of persuasion that bearing will fit right in that slot.

Now I'm thinking about how to bore/ream the bearings  :thinking: One way would be to just drill and ream each bearing in the vise, on the assumption that my milling on the base is accurate enough to give me aligned bearings.

Another way (more proper!) would be to drill and thread the base for the bearing caps and fit the bearings with caps, then bore the bearings in situ (probably line-boring since there's no way I can bore over 4" deep in one setup) with a final hand-ream to size. Thoughts?  :stickpoke:

In either case, after reaming, I'd separate the bearing halves with a bit of heat, then mill them down a little to form the gap.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jasonb on December 28, 2013, 01:48:46 PM
Simon if you are putting oil boxes onto the bearing caps perhaps I could talk you into matching ones on teh eccentric straps as attached :LittleDevil: Few more photos to follow later.

The ones I posted above are part of the Fowler archive, they along with a lot more are on a forum I donate to so get access to that area of the site. You may find some on the following link but its been a while since I looked through it so not sure if its got any similar engines and its a bit slow going to look through them all as there are no thumbnails.

http://vios1.rdg.ac.uk/olib/images/nof/fowler/photos/
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on December 28, 2013, 05:24:45 PM
Jason, if this engine had any eccentrics I'd do it  :Lol: (Actually if I decide to put on a pump at some point it would have one.)

After staring at this photo for a while I'm thinking of fixing my boo-boo of thicker flanges on the bearings fitting into recesses in the main casting. It won't look right  :thinking:

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on December 28, 2013, 07:47:59 PM
Here's the plan for bearing caps with oil boxes:

(http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2470.0;attach=11665;image)

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jasonb on December 28, 2013, 08:01:22 PM
The boxes will look good, that strap nearest the camera is the one for the pump. I also took a few more including a couple of the cylinder (and valve chest) drain arrangements.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Amberley%2008/Prestons%202013/HPIM1079_zps2edaf048.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Amberley%2008/Prestons%202013/HPIM1080_zps11c408be.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Amberley%2008/Prestons%202013/HPIM1081_zpsc801a846.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Amberley%2008/Prestons%202013/HPIM1082_zps3c7cb06e.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Amberley%2008/Prestons%202013/HPIM1083_zpsf13ffe25.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Amberley%2008/Prestons%202013/HPIM1047_zps05fe4820.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Amberley%2008/Prestons%202013/HPIM1049_zpsc0ca6c95.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Amberley%2008/Prestons%202013/HPIM1048_zps655677f5.jpg)

Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on December 31, 2013, 04:56:59 AM
Very handy photos, thanks Jason! I'm thinking about that fetching curved profile on the top sides of the main casting, but my valve chest is on top, unlike this engine. I'll have a play in the CAD package   :headscratch:

With a bit of fussing around I got the main bearings fitted. I was careful to make sure they bear on the inner faces, not the flange edges. Sharpie marker is useful here to see which bits are touching:

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5545/11660404965_4af083e976_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11660404965/)

Fitting was by a combination of filing and taking off a few thou here and there on the mill. When tidying up the bearings, I always put parallels under the critical inner faces, not the non-critical flanges for accuracy:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2837/11660755294_20cc135ef2_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11660755294/)

and always with the same reference face against the fixed jaw.

In situ, they are a nice snug fit :cartwheel:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2839/11660757384_0731dcc3b8_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11660757384/)

with a proto bearing cap in the background. Those still have a bit of fussy rotary table work.

I also got the bearing standards drilled and tapped today:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2830/11661436026_4e86a69fca_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11661436026/)

which means I can make some temporary bearing caps to hold the bearings down if I choose to line bore them.

The other small bit of progress was to get the cylinder block fixed to the base, which involved making 6 2BA studs:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3818/11660901183_701578a582_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11660901183/)

I haven't quite got the hang of making these short studs yet. I cut the longer thread while still on the parent material, then parted off, turned around in the collet and threaded the shorter end. However, threading the second end would cause them to spin around in the collet and get chewed up, so I made a small fixture out of a bit of 1/2" SS with a built-in backstop. However, this didn't hold the studs securely until I drilled and reamed a bit to fit the unthreaded section, and after that I had one of two problems. :wallbang: Either I wasn't able to easily remove the finished stud from the fixture (had to resort to a pair of locked nuts), or reversing the die caused the stud to unscrew from the fixture:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3722/11660899663_1f3cf7ce0f_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11660899663/)

The only thing I can think of to make this easier is to adjust the fixture to expose a section of the stud thread on the inside, and use a locknut there to hold for the second threading op. Any other ideas?  :thinking:

Feels good to get these parts hooked together, which took a little bit of easing of the holes in the cylinder block, but not too much:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2805/11660903103_c7c86688f6_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11660903103/)

The studs need a bit of length adjustment. I also discovered that I can't drop the nuts over the studs without raising the cylinder block a little, which is going to make assembly/disassembly a whole lot of fun ;D

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: fumopuc on December 31, 2013, 08:17:21 AM
Hi Simon, great progress, it is looking better and better. Your way to make the bearing and bearing cap is something I have to learn.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: NickG on December 31, 2013, 01:50:18 PM
Well done Simon, it really looks the part.  :NotWorthy:
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: RonGinger on December 31, 2013, 05:24:48 PM
I have had good luck holding small threads by taking a hex nut of the right size and sawing a slot from one flat into the center. I can then clamp the hex nut in a 3, or 6, jaw chuck. It seems to grip the thread well enough for things like making a stud or reshaping the head of a bolt. I have several sizes like this on the top tray of my lathe.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on December 31, 2013, 05:34:39 PM
I have had good luck holding small threads by taking a hex nut of the right size and sawing a slot from one flat into the center. I can then clamp the hex nut in a 3, or 6, jaw chuck. It seems to grip the thread well enough for things like making a stud or reshaping the head of a bolt. I have several sizes like this on the top tray of my lathe.

Oooh, that's a good idea Ron, I'll have to try that!

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Don1966 on December 31, 2013, 06:37:48 PM
Simon I can appreciate the bearing blocks, because I know you put a lot of effort in making them. Nice work as usual.

Don
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on January 02, 2014, 06:35:46 AM
Time to talk about the valve plate  :D

As I mentioned earlier, Muncaster designed this engine to be easy to make (no angled drilling of steam passages), and to maintain, so he has a valve plate that sits between the cylinder block and the valve chest. He says to make this from steel, but I used cast iron.

A slice was taken off the lump that donated the cylinder block, on the bandsaw:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3761/11702241553_30e0210aba_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11702241553/)

and the rest of that lump will become the valve chest. It's nice to be able to get a reasonably straight cut and slice of a thin piece like this; there's no way I could do this with a hacksaw  :insane: I made sure to flycut the block before sawing, to give me a flat surface to work with  :ThumbsUp:

I decided to machine this 1/8" plate by glueing it to the other part of this cast iron lump, so that needed a flat surface too. I've got into the habit of running an indicator over uneven surfaces once mounted in the vice and writing on the high and low spots:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2828/11702758406_0dcf808e6a_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11702758406/)

so I know how many passes I need to take and how much to remove on each pass. Once that surface was flat, I superglued the plate to it:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7290/11702760486_df3424bd33_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11702760486/)

after marking out the valve surfaces. After an overnight cure, 1/32" was removed from the bulk of the plate, leaving two raised areas on which the valves bear. I presume this is to allow for wear if the engine is run for long periods of time:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2839/11702247383_51acc41412_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11702247383/)

Then the valve openings were marked out:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2828/11702764446_60317b51aa_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11702764446/)

making it obvious which bits to remove. There's nothing worse than milling out between the wrong pair of lines! Those are 1/8" slots, and I find that using a 1/8" endmill gives me slots a few thousands wider, so needed something smaller. I had ordered a 1/16" end mill for this purpose, and after drilling out some of the material, gingerly started in with small cuts. On the first slot, then first end broke. On the second slot, the other end broke when I just looked at it wrong :facepalm2: (Remind me not to buy Chinese-made Interstate mills again.)

After a couple of days of waiting, the brown truck delivered a nice 7/64" carbide bit, which was so much nicer to work with:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2866/11702252643_6e7cfabc31_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11702252643/)

and resulted in some nice accurate slots; here I'm checking slot width with a 1/8" drill bit:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3703/11702387604_609f36f6dc_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11702387604/)

Now with a bit of heat and a struggle the plate was separated from its parent block:

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5509/11702770936_0e52e87d28_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11702770936/)

Here's a shot that shows the broken vs. quality end mill:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7434/11702022275_3f419e639d_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11702022275/)

Now to clean up the surface with some wet&dry on the glass plate:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7324/11702774666_747143abc5_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11702774666/)

Uh oh, something's not flat  :Doh: My plate seems to have warped pretty badly (a few thou in the middle). So it was back onto the mill with it for a skim:

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5481/11702026195_e9422767a7_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11702026195/)

but back on the glass plate, the sides are high now!   :facepalm:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2878/11702396814_c7eb15d1f0_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11702396814/)

Almost and hour of rubbing on wet&dry and filing didn't want to correct that, so I looked around for other abrasives, and spotted the Timesaver compound. Since I had that mixed up, I might as well do the top of the cylinder block, and, hey, isn't there something about rubbing three surfaces together gives you a perfectly flat one (the third is a face of what will be the valve chest)?

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7322/11702779846_da3b86c656_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11702779846/)

A treatment of coarse followed by medium compound did a reasonable job:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2893/11702031625_2d926b2d05_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11702031625/)

I'm not getting out to the sides and corners as much as I'd like. And see that shiny spot in the middle of the valve plate? Yeah, that means the plate is high in the middle again...but that's probably OK since clamping it down around the edges should result in a good seal around the steam passages. Not sure if I'll have a gasket under the valve plate?

The valve-bearing surfaces also got a rub with the Timesaver compound, so they should be almost ready to take the valves.

So that'll do for now. I'll probably have another go at those surfaces once it comes to assembly time. Making flat surfaces is hard :( I guess that's where a surface grinder comes in handy!

Next will be the valve chest, which I'm hogging out of that lump of iron. And this stack of parts is topped off with a valve cover, which will be yet another slice of CI.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jasonb on January 02, 2014, 07:53:13 AM
I suspect your plate curled as it was sawn off the large block.

The reason the two valve surfaces are raised is so its easier to lap a small area. Also on the real thing where the valve surface would have needed machining down in the bottom of the valve chest cavity it gave the planning machine some run out at the ends of the stroke.

I'd use CSK screws to hold the plate to the block and add a slow setting epoxy, once its all screwed down lap your valve faces again as things are likely to move again when screwed down. I've seen it done a few times this was to correct poorly cast valve ports. The plate stays as part of teh block and you have a separate valve chest so you may need to think about screw positions to miss the studs which should pass through the plate and be screwed into the block and miss the CSK screws.

J
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on January 02, 2014, 05:26:54 PM
Hmm, interesting suggestion Jason to expoxy them together. I was going to keep them separate, but I do suspect that without a gasket, I'm going to get some leakage around the steam ports. Another option would be a smear of silicone or similar on assembly.

In terms of lapping, once I've drilled the holes for the valve chest studs I could possibly bolt down the valve plate from the sides for a final lapping (using something that fits between the studs). Not quite ideal, but should be good enough?

I'll have to think about it  :thinking:

Simon

Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Florian Eberhard on January 03, 2014, 11:33:29 PM
Hey Simon

What about assembling the cylinder block and the valveplate with a liquid sealant?
I think i will finally do it that way with my stuart pump...

Florian
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jasonb on January 04, 2014, 08:01:43 AM
My reason for suggesting fixing the plate separately are that you can lap it flat once it has been fixed as tightening down is likely to cause slight distortion, by doing it with a permanent adhesive the subsequent tightening of the chest will not add any distortion, even a smear of silicon gasket is still flexible.

If you put it all together in one go using the same studs as the valve chest you really have no easy way to lap and if the valve chest or cover needs to be removed you will need to lap again when its retightened as its unlikely to go back the same.

Muncasters loose plate is really just an easy way to reproduce a single casting that would have had the passages cast in so by fixing the plate to the main block you are once again treating these two as a single casting.

J
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on January 04, 2014, 06:51:36 PM
I suspect this is all pretty academic given the small amount of bowing involved, and a bit of side tilt on the valve surfaces isn't an issue because the valves float and will take up the angle. But front/back curvature or tilt is an issue. I can do a trial bolting down of the valve plate and run an indicator over the surfaces to see what happens.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on January 06, 2014, 04:38:34 AM
I had a couple of good sessions in the shop over the weekend, and did the bulk of the work on the parts of the "cylinder block stack"!

The lump of CI that was to become the valve chest was milled to size, and marked up. The main operations here are to form a cavity in the middle, and shape the sides. I chain-drilled to make space for a hacksaw blade:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3784/11791149285_aa65cfa204_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11791149285/)

and did some very wonky hacksawing to remove the middle:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7336/11791918376_ee5a146e0f_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11791918376/)

The cavity was them roughed out. This 1/2" rougher makes short work of removing material!

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5508/11791572904_e73df5072e_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11791572904/)

The cavity was then cleaned up with a normal end mill, including the slopes on the inner sides. Here you can see that it clears the valve surfaces nicely once finished:

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5488/11791170875_5715c8efd8_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11791170875/)

On the outside, there are angles on two sides, so those were started on the bandsaw in vertical mode:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3795/11791156555_5452fbe9e2_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11791156555/)

The part was set at an angle in the vise:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3813/11791930296_ac7467fa48_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11791930296/)

for roughing out the slopes:

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5504/11791159745_534716d211_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11791159745/)

and then a corner-radius end mill was used for final cleanup:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2835/11791409213_829c3c3553_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11791409213/)

On each side of the valve chest are three bosses that take the hold-down studs. I'll do these by JB-Welding on some bits of turned CI, but they need a place to sit, so a 3/8" mill does the job, locating on some holes drilled from the underside:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3830/11791591044_1bfe92153a_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11791591044/)

Main shaping done, other than the JB-Welding and lots of holes:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2822/11791593284_d78eed38ee_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11791593284/)

I'll do the holes for the valve rod glands, and valve guides later.

The final :cartwheel: bit of CI work is the valve cover, at the top of the stack! This is a 3"x3"x1/4" sheet. The parent block of CI was getting a bit thin at this point, and there's no way I could hold it in the bandsaw as-is. So I drilled a couple of holes in the spare material at one end, with the right spacing to put some bolts through a 1-2-3 block which I could then hold in the bandsaw vise:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7312/11792091706_c8fc14596b_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11792091706/)

This worked a treat! I'd already made one good surface before bandsawing, so trimming the block to size was easy. All marked up and ready to go:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3754/11791746134_6bee221ef7_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11791746134/)

The cover has depressions on each surface, with a boss in the middle of the top one. This was roughed out with a radius end mill:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3814/11791331355_79e1fb039d_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11791331355/)

then put onto the rotary table so I could mill around the boss in the middle:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2845/11791333365_cb9c40d157_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11791333365/)

First I took the boss to size at final depth, then I locked the rotary table with the part aligned to the mill axis and did the outer sides. That allowed me to do the whole surface without changing the milling cutter depth.

Finally the corners were cleaned out with a 1/8" ball end mill:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7306/11792100216_f44b85c48e_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11792100216/)

with the rotary table still locked to the mill axis.

Which leaves us with this:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2883/11792102046_13260937da_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11792102046/)

I have lots of holes to drill for studs, some JB-Welding, and openings for the valve gear. But it's finally taking shape! Not the prettiest engine in the world, but I think it has character!

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Kim on January 06, 2014, 04:44:26 AM
That's a lot of very nice work there Simon!  :ThumbsUp:

You make it look easy, but I know its not!

Kim
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: fumopuc on January 06, 2014, 05:20:45 AM
Yes Simon it has character. I like it very much.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: ths on January 06, 2014, 07:33:45 AM
I think Mr Muncaster would be drooling at this stage.

Hugh.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Roger B on January 06, 2014, 10:10:09 AM
That's some good looking work  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: You seem to keep everthing very clean considering the amount of CI you are chewing out!
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: tvoght on January 06, 2014, 04:15:54 PM
I continue to be inspired by this build.

 I hadn't seen it mentioned here, but I was wondering if you'd seen this:

http://historicmodelsandreproductions.com/hmr_web_page_jan_2012_rev_5r_008.htm

--Tim
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on January 06, 2014, 04:54:12 PM
I continue to be inspired by this build.

 I hadn't seen it mentioned here, but I was wondering if you'd seen this:

http://historicmodelsandreproductions.com/hmr_web_page_jan_2012_rev_5r_008.htm

Wow, I had not seen that! It's the same engine!  :cartwheel:

Actually I feel slightly relieved; those castings are for the full-size engine (26" long) and there's no way I'd be able to handle those on my machinery. I also saved myself almost $1000  ;D Not keen on the two flywheels, either.

But I can gleen some details from the photos that were hard to determine from the plans, namely the shapes of some of the linkages. So thank you Tim for the link!

Thanks also to everyone who's posted encouraging words.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: tvoght on January 06, 2014, 07:04:09 PM
These folks are at NAMES each year and I  :Love: that engine! I hope these extra shots I took are helpful (too bad about the motion blur, but on the other hand, it's a 'Joy' to watch run!). I have these in higher resolution and if there are any that would be useful in 3648 x 2736, I can get them to you.

(http://www.voght.com/joy4smfr/5.jpg)
(http://www.voght.com/joy4smfr/10.jpg)
(http://www.voght.com/joy4smfr/15.jpg)
(http://www.voght.com/joy4smfr/20.jpg)
(http://www.voght.com/joy4smfr/25.jpg)
(http://www.voght.com/joy4smfr/30.jpg)

--Tim
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on January 06, 2014, 08:17:12 PM
Thanks Tim! Very handy to see those shots.

I think I'm going to deviate slightly from the Muncaster plans on the crankshaft: Jason's image all show counterweights, so I'll add those. I might also do cotters as shown on the Fowler engines that Jason posted. My bearing caps will differ a bit too.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Don1966 on January 07, 2014, 12:00:13 AM
Simon you have been doing so nice work.  I guess we can't call you a newbie anymore. You look like your in the pro's league now bud. Keep it coming........... :ThumbsUp:

Don
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on January 07, 2014, 01:10:19 AM
Hmm, I wonder whether that little lever on the side of that engine is for the drain cocks?

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 07, 2014, 02:11:26 AM
Simon, I've been following along silently but this is some most impressive work on what will be a fine and very interesting model!!

Bill
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on January 13, 2014, 06:47:07 AM
Thanks for all the comments, folks  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

I had a couple of half days this weekend and made some more progress on the valve chest. It has these bosses on the sides:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3675/11923521313_1e404b3f0c_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11923521313/)

and I made those by turning down some left-over bits of CI before drilling and parting off:

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5536/11923519413_fcbc4c7698_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11923519413/)

These bits of CI were from the outside of a bar, and had a hard side and a soft side, so the drill would wander  :ShakeHead: I had to face off and start a new hole a couple of times, and I left the hole undersized.

To help with smoothing out the J-B Weld I made some radiused rods freehand, by some initial rough turning, and then using files and a radius gauge:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7426/11923714214_dc2acd37d0_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11923714214/)

I made 1/16", 5/64" and 3/32" which should cover the range of filles that I might need.

Then it was J-B Weld time:

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5534/11924124706_3f88dc7bb0_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11924124706/)

and after 24 hours or so to cure, some quality time with the files and wet & dry to clean up the fillets. I think it'll paint up quite nicely  :D

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3761/11923717814_ec5240446d_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11923717814/)

I decided to use 3BA studs and nuts to hold down the steam chest, but didn't have either in stock, so made some studs out of 303 stainless (sorry, no pictures!) and used a bit of mystery stainless for nuts. The hex collet block made it easy to cut the hex:

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5550/11923529203_82b04a52ae_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11923529203/)

and I did about 1.5" on each end of the bar to avoid the need for end support. After milling, the hex was cleaned up by draw-filing:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7295/11923721894_14552995ed_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11923721894/)

and then the bar was drilled and threaded in stages as the nuts were parted off. I had to be slightly careful with this material; I detected a bit of work hardening, so had to not be shy with the drilling and the parting tool. Oddly enough, the HSS taps (from Chronos if I recall) worked like a dream though  :ThumbsUp:

Parting off did leave a burr on the underside, however, which you can see raising the nuts here:

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5518/11924132546_fa373a2995_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/11924132546/)

but that was easily taken off by holding the nuts in a collet and skimming the bottom.

I've made a bit more progress on drilling and tapping for the valve cover, but I'll show that once it's complete. :)

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: NickG on January 13, 2014, 07:31:34 PM
That's really looking the part! Lot I work making nuts etc but try do look superior.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on January 18, 2014, 07:12:13 AM
A bit more progress here. I drilled and tapped the cylinder block for studs, first the six studs that hold down the valve chest:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3793/12007297303_bdc0a53c77_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12007297303/)

A 1-2-3 block bolted down on two sides  allowed for repeatable positioning in case I had to remove the valve chest mid-drilling.

For the valve cover holes, I first drilled and tapped on opposite corners for the valve cover. You can't see it here, but I always start the taps with the tap held in a drill chuck on the mill/drill. If I remove a belt, I can easily rotate the spindle by hand and the return spring is soft enough to just let the tap pull the quill down. After getting the tap started, I release it from the chuck and continue with a tap wrench:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3763/12007017215_a38df84447_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12007017215/)

With the valve cover bolted down on two corners, I then freehand drilled the remaining holes, tapping size first, using a punch mark to start the holes in the right place:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7353/12007018345_1c6b5eb0c2_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12007018345/)

While doing this I was thinking about the relative accuracies of this method vs. finding hole locations using a DRO. One limitation of using punch marks to start drilling is that part has to be light enough to slide around to center under the drill point.

Four of the studs are long, and go down through the valve chest into the cylinder block. Here I'm using the pre-drilled holes in the valve cover and chest to continue down into the cylinder block (all the holes are still tapping size at this point—this sequence required a bit of thought to make sure I didn't clearance-drill too soon  :headscratch:):

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2864/12007830266_f1a994b3fe_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12007830266/)

And the cylinder block is tapped, again letting the part just locate under the tap of its own accord (the vise isn't clamped down):

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3761/12007020465_df00977208_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12007020465/)

As always, tapped holes require some touch-up with a file to take off burrs. It's interesting that this happens even in cast iron:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3779/12007831946_e17c35943b_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12007831946/)

And I made some studs! 6 3BA for the valve chest, 4 long 4BA ones and 2 short 4BA ones done, and 6 more short 4BA ones to go! I used 303 stainless, which would probably get me arrested by the authenticity police, but was much easier to machine than the drill rod I started with since the diameter had to be turned down for the entire length of each stud  :Doh:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2808/12007373864_7ec8197460_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12007373864/)

I also spent some quality time with wet & dry on the glass plate trying to get rid of the tooling marks on the valve cover. Boy what an effort!

One thing that's slightly worrisome is that four of the stud holes go through to the valve chamber; I'm pretty sure there isn't enough thickness to do a blind tapped hole there in the drawings. So might I be dealing with some steam leaks around those studs?

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jasonb on January 18, 2014, 07:48:50 AM
Simon you can avoid the burrs either by spotting through with the clearance drill and making a shallow hole in the part maybe just one turn of thread depth. Or use spotting drills if not locating from another part and drill so the "spot" is just over the thread dia, this in effect puts a small CSK on the hole before tapping and is what I usually do as now I have the DRO I don't spot from another part very often.

(http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/sites/7/images/member_albums/44290/348416.jpg)

(http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/sites/7/images/member_albums/44290/350061.jpg)

Some liquid gasket around the studs will hopefully stop any leaks.

J
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: fumopuc on January 18, 2014, 08:05:56 AM
Hi Simon, that looks very good. I am still following.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: steamer on January 18, 2014, 12:14:34 PM
That's really nicely done Simon, did you make that tap wrench?....I like it. :ThumbsUp:

Dave

Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 18, 2014, 01:52:27 PM
I hadn't been around for a while and was wondering what you were up to.
Just finished reading your thread. Always enjoyable and educational.
Fascinating engine and excellent quality.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Don1966 on January 18, 2014, 03:00:17 PM
Awesome Simon, excellent work and an A+ on the JB weld. She's going to be a beaut bud.

Don
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on January 18, 2014, 06:52:22 PM
Thanks all, and good to have you back, Zee!

Jason, good tip on the hole counter-sinking. I usually run a small countersink in the hole by hand, but I shall add a step to my drilling/tapping routine  :ThumbsUp:

Dave, the tap wrench came with a set of BA taps and dies from Tap & Die. Handy, but it's a bit fussy to tighten and loosen.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on January 18, 2014, 07:04:48 PM
Simon, I've been quietly following along. Very nice fab work on the bosses :ThumbsUp:and I think even Jo would approve of your studding abilities. I've got to get some kind of reference for these BA sizes, so I'll know how big y'all are talking about. Keep up the good work mate :cheers:

Whiskey
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jasonb on January 18, 2014, 07:40:18 PM
This is what I made up to know what you are all talking about ;)
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on January 18, 2014, 07:47:20 PM
Jason, old boy, thanks. I'll copy, paste, and print. You are turning into my "across the pond hero" :cheers:

Whiskey
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on January 18, 2014, 08:03:29 PM
Thanks Whiskey  :cheers:

I'm currently having fun hogging out the conrods. It's the kind of stuff that keeps you awake at night  :insane:

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on January 26, 2014, 05:27:00 AM
I've been quiet here for a couple of weekends because...conrods!

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2861/12145714146_5de20fd291_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12145714146/)

Quite a bit of work in those. Apologies for the bandwidth-constrained, this is going to be a picture-heavy post (even more so than usual!).

These started life as a bit of 2" 1144 ("stressproof"), which happened to be in the firesale at SpeedyMetals (and somehow I managed to add 2 sticks to my card  ;D). The bandsaw made quick work of cutting to length:

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5484/12145390714_04ed565001_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12145390714/)

and then was used to cut a flat (slightly hairy clamping here, but it worked out OK):

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5527/12145229123_770a13c747_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12145229123/)

As I have been well trained to do by now, first order of business is mill down the sawed face to a good flat surface:

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5527/12144986305_19b0e53749_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12144986305/)

and with a few more cuts, we have two billets of material for the two conrods:

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5471/12145653216_7e99ac57d3_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12145653216/)

I've taken to writing the material on offcuts (and spent a happy couple of hours trying to identify some mystery rods by spark testing, which actually worked better than I imagined  :cartwheel: ) so my metal collection is a bit more organized now.

Using the rougher to get through the skin:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7310/12145234323_51d7ac51e0_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12145234323/)

and then squaring up:

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5495/12145236133_c2d380ea56_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12145236133/)

At first I didn't think I liked this material, but it's grown on me.

So, here we are, ready for the real work:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2807/12145658666_028cb91765_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12145658666/)

All marked out and ready to rumble:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3790/12145660166_ee0e464d66_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12145660166/)

First order of the day was removing the bulk of the material from each side of the rods. If they are going to warp, they'll do so after this material removal, so I didn't want to do any precision parts before cutting things down. No pictures of that, but it was mainly end milling with the rougher in the vise.

And, yup, even though this is "stressproof" there's some warping. The other ends are clamped together:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3814/12145661466_a2258b5454_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12145661466/)

Now we can get closer to final dimensions. First, I thinned the big end:

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5541/12144997315_c82c56f474_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12144997315/)

and used a radius endmill to take the various parts down to near final thickness:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7348/12145000495_1b39d8ff87_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12145000495/)

Not getting a very good finish from that end mill: I think it's getting a bit dull. I also used a ball-end mill to profile the join between the forks and the main body:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7386/12145664516_f8bf66c96f_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12145664516/)

So we're left with:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2827/12145667346_b7547a5589_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12145667346/)

I was careful to do the operations in an order that left me with ways of holding the parts accurately in the vise. So here we've still got full height, allowing me to find an accurate centerline for the holes, and to drill them straight.

Because of the poor finish from the earlier milling, and still being a few thou over thickness, I wanted to take another skim of the shanks. To avoid any kind of taper, I use the "mill a parallel in place" trick, which is the bit of Al you see in the front here:

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5509/12145248793_36013f3183_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12145248793/)

So now all the side faces are accurate. Time to start with some shaping! From the drawings in the eighth photo, you can see that these rods have a sort of "arrow" profile on the sides. To cut these, I set the vise at an angle:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3707/12145416494_993f14f2de_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12145416494/)

then used the no-so-sharp radius end mill (which has a 60 thou radius), being careful to just touch the previously cut surface:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3767/12145414894_6f5a7279a2_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12145414894/)

An end stop, in the form of a bolted-down 1-2-3 block, allows all four cuts at the same angle to be repeatable. For the other angle, the vise had to be repositioned the other way. You can see the resulting chevron profile on the left here:

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5472/12145419634_7a48bfd8ff_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12145419634/)

and, also, now is a good time to drill the holes. This middle hole drives the valve linkage, and I drilled the forked end in the same setup (using my poor man's DRO to measure the offset accurately).

Some other holes were drilled on the other axis:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7301/12145011535_41cfbc14cb_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12145011535/)

The big end has a hole for the pin that locates the closing block, and a hole that will be opened into a rectangle to take the cotter. On the right end is a hole that will be used to locate the part on the rotary table to round the shoulders (it gets milled away later).

Speaking of rotary tables, that's the next operation. To locate the part on the table, I use a 2-MT collet and a set of pins I made with various diameters that fit into a bit of 1/2" rod with a 1/4" hole in the middle. These get a lot of use!

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3699/12145679126_bd6f41223c_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12145679126/)

I was a bit concerned about the length of cut when rounding these shoulders, but it went without hiccups (as I said, this material is growing on me)

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7404/12145426144_474f6dfdd6_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12145426144/)

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2805/12145260463_8a7566aa58_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12145260463/)

Now, while I still have straight top and bottom edges, I need to cut the space for the bearing blocks. Chain drilling and the bandsaw remove most of the material (and the waste will be used for the end stop):

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7380/12145263453_c3efcbdae3_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12145263453/)

and then a saw takes out the rest:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3824/12145268433_c7feaa307b_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12145268433/)

Since I always found sawing to be a somewhat mysterious operation, but now get along quite well with them, some words about how I did this might be useful.

First, use an appropriate speed! Calculate the RPMs based on the blade diameter; with larger blades like this, they get pretty low (I was running on my lowest speed, 125RPM).

Second, make sure the part is clamped such that the sawing action isn't going to move the part around. Here I've got the minimal amount of material projecting from the vise jaws.

For this operation, I did a roughing pass followed by a finish pass. For the roughing pass, the part was aligned with the spindle, and simply advanced slowly into the saw blade. Not sure if it's normal, but pretty much all the blades I have seem to be somewhat eccentric, so you'll get cut/skip/cut/skip noises as you do this. I left about 5 thou on all sides (I touched the sawblade off on the top of the part to get my height adjustment set up).

For the finish pass, we need to make sure the "bottom" of the cut is square, so we have to do some cranking of the cross-slide. You want to avoid climb cutting too (where the blade is trying to push the part along in the same direction as the cut), so here's what I did. First, do a cut at final height at the bottom of the U, with the crossslide towards the back of the mill, so that after getting to depth, you can crank the cross-slide towards you to create a flat left side of the cut. Then back out, raise the blade by a little under its thickness, crank the cross-slide back, move the carriage back to go to deph, and crank the cross-slide towards you again, taking another cut. Continue until you get to the top, doing a pass over the inner top surface on the last cut.

One done, one to go:

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5550/12145021345_0771a479ee_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12145021345/)

Now, one more operation we have to do while we can still hold the part horizontally accurately, and that's to cut out the yoke. First I thinned down the end on the bandsaw:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3795/12145434554_f45ac498f7_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12145434554/)

and then took out the bulk of the material with a 1/4" mill:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7396/12145271603_568791ac49_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12145271603/)

Note the bit of connecting material left to try to prevent those parts from flapping around later.

The slot is finished with a slot drill (2-flute end mill) for final width:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3810/12145693756_d3faec81fb_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12145693756/)

taking light cuts. One down, one to go:

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5549/12145029835_481d176296_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12145029835/)

I think that's enough for one post! I'll post part II shortly.

Simon



Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on January 26, 2014, 05:42:53 AM
The next set of operations are all about adding the taper to the top and bottom, and rounding.

I had one of those lying-awake-at-night bright ideas  :noidea: about how to mill the tapers. First, I decided to do it by side milling, because that takes care of the various radii at each end of the cut, and around the center hole. Then I realized I could locate the part on two pins, and just flip the part over to do the other side. Finally, I realized that I could drill and ream a fixture in situ for the pins such that the face to be cut was parallel with the mill axis. So with a bit of trig I worked out the X and Y offsets required to give the 1.2deg taper, and drilled and reamed some Al sheet for the two pins. Both parts slipped nicely onto the pins (it's great when math works  ;D ) and a wobbler follows the line  :cartwheel:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7337/12145696916_c47429faba_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12145696916/)

A nice carbide end mill (great estate sale find!) chews through this stuff like butter:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3756/12145033385_3a03997828_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12145033385/)

but I have to be careful to not go too far! The mill was chosen to give the correct 1/4" radius at the big end, around the central hole, and at the yoke end, so I mill up to the scribed circles (as close as I dare, at least!).

It's fun when the final shape of the part starts to emerge:

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5538/12145700096_1449895d81_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12145700096/)

Both done!

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5485/12145447864_a028a4a108_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12145447864/)

Those shoulders need a bit of cleanup, so I use the same fixture set at the appropriate angle:

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5484/12145040545_99be50d869_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12145040545/)

and then re-set to the other angle for the other shoulders.

Now we're on the home stretch! Just a bit of rotary table work to go! First around the central holes:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7424/12145042335_70b255cba4_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12145042335/)

I always find this a bit nerve-wracking; it's too easy to turn too far and take out a chunk. One technique I've started to use is to mark the part with a Sharpie to see what's getting removed:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3807/12145452924_2e77462fbe_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12145452924/)

and a combination of this, and watching the handwheel to take small incremental cuts seems to work well.

Now to do the yoke ends:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3689/12145454284_96c062da59_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12145454284/)

again using those pins to easily locate the part. The final machining step is to cut the radius around the bosses with a radius end mill:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7426/12145291703_45f2681dcc_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12145291703/)

I only had time to do a bit of drawfiling on one of them, so there's quite a bit of finishing left:

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5498/12145457004_21c1a37a46_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12145457004/)

but I'm quite happy with those. That'll do.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Kim on January 26, 2014, 06:07:47 AM
Wow Simon! You should be pleased with those con rods!  :NotWorthy: They look fantastic!  A lot of work and a lot of steps, but your careful planning really paid off I'd say!   Well done!
Kim
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: fumopuc on January 26, 2014, 07:55:21 AM
Hi Simon, very good job and documentation how to do it. Thanks for all your efforts and perfect presentation. This is the right place for my to learn
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Florian Eberhard on January 26, 2014, 11:28:12 AM
Woooah Simon

Stunning work with those conrods!! And they look great!

Regards
Florian
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: steamer on January 26, 2014, 11:31:52 AM
Wow Simon! You n be pleased with those con rods!  :NotWorthy: They look fantastic!  A lot of work and a lot of steps, but your careful planning really paid off I'd say!   Well done!
Kim

Outstanding Simon!  Simply outstanding! :NotWorthy:
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: ths on January 26, 2014, 12:12:10 PM
Yes, outstanding, and a great series of shots. When you refer to a radius milling cutter, do you just mean a ball ended cutter?

Hugh.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: vcutajar on January 26, 2014, 12:41:42 PM
Great conrods Simon. And also great walk-through.

Vince
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Stilldrillin on January 26, 2014, 01:17:59 PM
 Proper, "joined up" milling!!  :praise2:

Great to see, Simon. Well done!  (http://freesmileyface.net/smiley/respect/respect-044.gif) (http://freesmileyface.net)

David D
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: tvoght on January 26, 2014, 02:08:08 PM
Great work and beautiful results.
Good that you grew to like the Stressproof after buying 2 big chunks of it!

--Tim
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Don1966 on January 26, 2014, 03:19:37 PM
Awesome Simon, some very impressive steps and the results are stunning. You keep improving with every post. I like.......... :ThumbsUp:

Don
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on January 26, 2014, 03:22:53 PM
Thanks for the comments everyone!  :cheers:

Yes, outstanding, and a great series of shots. When you refer to a radius milling cutter, do you just mean a ball ended cutter?

Hugh, the radiused end mills I used are like a normal end mill, but have a small radius on the tips of the flutes. So if you just milled a slot, you'd end up with a flat-bottomed slot with a fillet in the bottom corners. They are handy when creeping up to an existing radius, because a slight mistake won't leave a sharp edge. With a ball ended cutter, on a flat part you have to make lots of tiny passes to blend up to a radius, and then you're left with more filing  ;)

They seem a bit hard to find; Enco doesn't sell them, and places like MSC charge ridiculous amounts. I've obtained a few over eBay.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jasonb on January 26, 2014, 04:25:49 PM
I just freehand grind the corners of blunt cutters to get the same effect.

Nice work on the rods Simon.

J
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: metalmudler on January 26, 2014, 05:02:13 PM
Great stuff Simon,

Watching and reading intently..
As they say.. A Pic says 1000 words.Tnx

Paul
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: ths on January 26, 2014, 08:45:19 PM
Thanks Simon. Hugh.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Pedro on January 26, 2014, 09:37:05 PM
Very nice! A1 planning, see what you mean by sleepless nights. Well done.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on January 27, 2014, 01:28:06 AM
Beautiful work Simon!


Dave
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Hugh Currin on January 27, 2014, 01:44:12 AM
Simon:

My first thought was you are crazy starting those parts from round stock. You knew what you were doing though as they came out really well.

Thanks for the build log.

Hugh
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Florian Eberhard on January 27, 2014, 08:38:19 AM
the radiused end mills I used...
...They seem a bit hard to find

Well you may try with "toric endmill" or "corner radius endmill".
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: metalmudler on January 28, 2014, 04:27:38 PM
OMG Simon. That is comming along awesome. Thanks for posting m8.. Top stuff as always....
Yeah,  iv'e just pulled up a chair  :praise2:
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on February 03, 2014, 04:26:33 AM
To take a break from finishing on those conrods, I did a trial run on a soldered crankshaft, making just one set of throws. This was very much an experiment: my first try at making a built-up crankshaft, and my first attempt at soldering steel, especially at this size (throw is 1", the shaft is 1/2" in diameter). So feedback on the technique is very welcome!

As recommended by others, I used O-1 (gauge plate/drill rod) for both the throws and the shaft and journal. Here's the material for the throws:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7432/12281175304_40a64134ed_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12281175304/)

The two parts were milled to size, then drilled in increments up to 31/64ths:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7371/12280898553_aa2cac6e02_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12280898553/)

then reamed 1/2" and chamfered slightly with a countersink to give the solder some room:

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5502/12281300786_8229bc2a03_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12281300786/)

Both done:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7308/12281180524_87041a4ac0_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12281180524/)

Now I need to give the solder some room to flow between the parts. Ideally you need a few thou gap (exactly how much depends on the brazing alloy being used), but that makes it harder to keep the parts in line while brazing, so I cheated and filed 8 flats around the bar in the joint area:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3772/12280903133_023f5701dc_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12280903133/)

A better option may have been to turn those areas down by a few thousands, and then use a diamond knurl to raise the surface enough to grip the reamed holes in the throws, but my knurls were all wider than the joint area. Another option would have been to turn down those areas, then make some pop marks with a punch.

Here are the parts prior to cleaning and assembly:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2884/12280904843_a3c2f47a3c_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12280904843/)

After researching brazing allows, and obtaining a few different ones, I chose to use Harris 45T for this, because it has quite a large range between solidus and liquidus, so is good at forming fillets. This is 1/16" wire, which seems a bit thick for this job, but was the only thickness I could get.

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7366/12281185344_f4f72bba25_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12281185344/)

I wound some around a 7/16" rod then cut through the coils to form rings, then assembled with flux (Stay Silv white brazing flux) and set it up in the hearth:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3823/12280764565_de54ddc8e8_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12280764565/)

I put the rings on the joints where I wanted to end up with a fillet. The white blankets are ceramic blankets, used by plumbers to avoid burning woodwork when soldering pipes! I'm using it here to try reduce heat loss from the shaft.

Brazing was a bit hairy; I just have a hand-held propane-bottle torch, which probably isn't really big enough for this. I tried to direct the flame onto the shaft and throws to heat the metal parts through, rather than onto the solder directly. Eventually the solder flowed, but I had to turn the part over and do a second heat to get the solder to flow on one side. Here's the result:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7444/12280909853_7f311093f8_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12280909853/)

After a scrub in hot water to get off the flux, we can take a closer look.

Solder penetration on one side of the journal is obviously not great:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3754/12281312086_f9b98c684d_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12281312086/)

and after cleanup the gaps make this part a reject:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3693/12281315056_44af724f2e_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12281315056/)

The other side looks really good though:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2835/12280913123_6fbc059ac8_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12280913123/)

Neither joint near the shaft has a full 1/16" fillet all the way around, which is what I was aiming for, either.

So, not bad for a first attempt. I think next time I would:

Is it reasonable to rely on a solder fillet to run against the bronze bearings to locate the crankshaft side-to-side, or is the solder too soft?

Now I have to decide on whether to try brazing the real part, or fall back to Loctite and pins.  :thinking:

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: ths on February 03, 2014, 06:49:34 AM
Would more heat from a larger nozzle provide you with more success? Longer heat-ups can render the flux a bit u/s, meaning that the solder won't flow as you may like. It happened to me recently, and I had to hold two torches to gain heat quickly, put down the smaller, then wave a stick of solder in my then free hand.

Hugh.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jasonb on February 03, 2014, 07:43:47 AM
Simon why do you feel the need for a fillet on the inside, it just means you have to either machine or clean it all away or put a large CSK on the bearings to clear it. Myself I would only CSk the webs on the outside and only place the solder on this side ( I actually prefer to feed in teh stick). If you look at my Galloway build you can see the CSK on one side only.

Also with the best will in the world a drill will wander slightly and the reamer will follow this hole, finish the holes with a boring head which will also allow you to play with the hole size.

A bigger torch will help to get things upto temp faster. Place the solder on the opposite sides to what you had it and apply the heat to the opposite side to the solder which will draw it towards the heat once it becomes liquid

J
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on February 03, 2014, 04:52:26 PM
Thanks for the advice, Jason! I was going for a fillet to replicate the fillet on a part turned from solid (or a forging), but I agree that it's a pain to adjust the bearings to fit.

I'll make the other set of throws with your suggestions  :cheers:

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Admiral_dk on February 03, 2014, 08:12:04 PM
Sorry no experience in this, but ....

I can't help thinking that a very shallow and narrow groove placed in the middle of the throws + one or two of your file "cuts", should do the trick. The file cut allows the solder in and the groove distributes it all the way round the axle.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Florian Eberhard on February 03, 2014, 09:18:53 PM
Hey Simon

I think its not a bad attempt for the first try!

Though I have no experience with soldering crankshafts, here some Ideas:

- I would propose you turn the ends of the crankpin to a smaller diameter so the distance between the throws is given by that.
- Then turn a groove (width in about 1/3 of the throw width, in about)) into the shaft and the crankpin where the throws will get. This will allow solder to flow all around (you will need to apply enough solder of course)
To get the solder into the groove you can still use your method but you wont have to file eight flats, two or three will do. (For better contact of the solder with the throws and the shaft, you could aswell mill away most of the surface where the throws are and just leave 3 or more "high spots".)

For the fillet, you could make the throws wider than they have to be and then turn them smaller after soldering and making your fillet on the edge to the shaft.
Or, alternatively, you could add small rings to where you want a fillet and then turn them off again once everything is soldere. But thats not really making the soldering easier (because of more parts...)

However, Im looking forwart for your next steps, as always its very interesting!  :ThumbsUp:

Regards Florian

Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: NickG on February 03, 2014, 09:19:59 PM
I tried this recently with similar results too but feeding the wire in. Unfortunately I had to grip my crankshaft I. The lathe which was probably have some heatsink effect. The other thing I think would help most is to have gravity on your side - difficult I know unless it's pinned as well but if doing 2 heats would it help standing on its end to help the solder to flow down to where you want it?
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: tvoght on February 04, 2014, 01:58:20 AM
Hi Simon,
Where do you get the plumber's 'ceramic blankets'? Is that the search term I should be using? I don't recall seeing the stuff at the local big-box hardware stores.

--Tim
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on February 04, 2014, 06:50:58 AM
Where do you get the plumber's 'ceramic blankets'? Is that the search term I should be using? I don't recall seeing the stuff at the local big-box hardware stores.

Hi Tim!

I got it on eBay. Search for "ceramic blanket" and you'll find lots of huge rolls (it's used to insulate around fireplaces, furnaces etc). It's also called "Kaowool" or "Cerablanket". If you're lucky you'll find someone selling offcuts. I would think that a fireplace installation place or builders yard might have it too.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on February 09, 2014, 07:23:20 AM
After getting the conrods done, I'm itching to get enough of the moving parts done to see some motion, so next are the crossheads.

While I had the Emco set up for turning, I churned out a couple of piston rods from precision-ground 303 stainless, leaving the piston end unfinished (for length adjustment later), and putting a bit of thread and a landing on the other end to fit to the crosshead.

The plans show the crosshead and piston rod as a single forging, but I didn't fancy turning both from solid, and without grinding ability, I didn't have the confidence to get a good even diameter on a rod the length of the piston rod. So I'm doing a fabrication. I haven't yet decided whether to silver-solder or use Loctite to hold the parts together.

So here's some material for the crossheads and the slide plates (which bolt onto the underside of the crosshead). The crossheads are 1144 stressproof, and the plates are O-1 gauge plate.

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5510/12401615035_9e05bc3179_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12401615035/)

The first operation on the crossheads was to drill the corners of the bearing opening:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3701/12401616855_abafde4e1f_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12401616855/)

after which I opened them up with an end mill:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7437/12401766013_288419562a_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12401766013/)

leaving a little spare for later filing. After that, each crosshead had three 5BA threaded holes made: two to hole the slide plate, and one for the bearing wedge:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7375/12402072854_dcce29be6b_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12402072854/)

Initially I was going to do the piston rod recess in the 4-jaw chuck, but then thought I'd get better alignment by doing it in the mill. First I drilled through for tapping size,

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2869/12401622345_51d142ebfa_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12401622345/)

then went part-way through with a larger drill. Then I could tap:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7399/12401773073_aed64fc4f0_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12401773073/)

and finally bore to fit the piston rod end with a tiny boring bar:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7374/12402076594_0879f23403_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12402076594/)

This joint is critical to get the piston rod lined up with the crosshead, so it was worth some care to get a good fit. I did have to do quite a bit of fiddling to get the pistron rods to screw all the way in.

The final operation while the vise was set up was to mill away some of the material to reduce the amount of interrupted turning later:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2827/12402079814_4292c8b62a_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12402079814/)

Then it was time to set up each crosshead in the 4-jaw, using the piston rod to center:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2858/12401777553_4b6c3460c6_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12401777553/)

which allows the radius to be turned:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7392/12402084064_8b02031cdd_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12402084064/)

I was getting a bit of chatter there, but it should clean up with a file.

Both done:

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5491/12401781013_2760301cbc_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12401781013/)

This is a mockup that shows the arrangement of the screw that pushes down on the bearing wedge:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7403/12402087454_1d3216c8b3_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12402087454/)

What I don't see on the plans is anything that locates the bearings in place; are they just held in by the wedge?

Now the bearing openings need to be cleaned up, and the only way I have to make square holes is by filing! To get the corners nice and square, I made up a couple of L-shaped guides from gauge-plate, and hardened them. Then, by clamping them on either side of the part to be filed, I can be sure that my filing is square.

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3720/12402090544_e43daf472c_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12402090544/)

Setting up these guides was a bit fiddly, but a toolmakers vise helped. The strategy here was to find a drill bit of the right thickness to line up the bottom edge to be filed, snug up the vise, then tap the part to align the perpendicular edge. Then tighten the vise, and apply a toolmakers clamp to hold things together for transfer to the bench vise, for filing:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2805/12402092064_5d448b41e7_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12402092064/)

A triangular file helps get into the corners. Four setups per part, and the bearing openings are reasonably square and sharp-cornered  :cartwheel:

Final steps are to mill the slight taper on the back face of the crosshead, and to take it to thickness, using the screwed in piston rod to make sure the sides are parallel with the direction of travel. A bit of draw-filing removes the milling marks, and we're here:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7452/12401643045_bae3562221_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12401643045/)

What I didn't show was the hour spent struggling to get the slide plates moving smoothly in the slides, which involved lots of filing, rubbing on stones, some TimeSaver, and milling off the odd thou here and there. My fingers still hurt from the sharp edges  :(

All was rewarded, however, with a test-fit with the cylinder covers on the cylinder block. Everything seems to fit  :pinkelephant:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3775/12402088944_f8cc1a72e8_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12402088944/)

Next I think I'll do two sets of bearings: those for the conrod, and the crosshead ones.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: fumopuc on February 09, 2014, 08:50:29 AM
Nice job Simon, I am always watching your progress.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: NickG on February 09, 2014, 10:18:43 AM
Yes looks pretty spectacular  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jasonb on February 09, 2014, 10:23:34 AM
Looks good Simon, what size thread is that on the rods? looks a bit light for a large engine
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 09, 2014, 12:51:05 PM
Beautiful! That was a real interesting post Simon.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Don1966 on February 09, 2014, 02:40:13 PM
Nicely done Simon and I know it was a lot of work to get that part done.


Don
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on February 09, 2014, 04:57:02 PM
Looks good Simon, what size thread is that on the rods? looks a bit light for a large engine

Jason, the thread is 3BA. I agree it's a bit small; the weak point is definitely the undercut at the end of the threads. I think you've convinced me that I need to silver-solder the rods in (assuming I can get solder to stick to 303 SS and 1144!) :)

However I won't do the soldering until I've got bearings done to get the length right. That way I can still hold the piston rod in a collet to finish the piston end.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Kim on February 09, 2014, 05:01:17 PM
That looks great Simon!  You're really getting along there!

Speaking of sharp edges, is that a dab of your blood I see on the inside of the back cross head?  :o Or just red layout dye? I could mail you a pirate band-aid!  :Lol:

Excellent work Simon, thanks for taking the time to share it with us!
Kim
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on February 09, 2014, 05:16:16 PM
That looks great Simon!  You're really getting along there!

Speaking of sharp edges, is that a dab of your blood I see on the inside of the back cross head?  :o Or just red layout dye? I could mail you a pirate band-aid!  :Lol:

Thanks Kim! Don't worry, that's just some red Sharpie I was using to mark the crosshead  :D

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jasonb on February 09, 2014, 06:01:22 PM
You may need to use a different flux, overhere Tenacity 5 or HT5 are needed for stainless as they remove the chrome oxide
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on February 10, 2014, 06:15:58 AM
You may need to use a different flux, overhere Tenacity 5 or HT5 are needed for stainless as they remove the chrome oxide

Right, I think I want the Harris "Black" flux, which of course I failed to include when I ordered my silver soldering supplies  :killcomputer:

A little more progress today, making the stop block thingies that hold the bearings in the conrods (no idea what their real name is!). Two bits of 1144 were milled close to size, then carefully set up in the vise for drilling and reaming 3/16":

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7443/12427833423_217cafd648_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12427833423/)

I was careful here because I only have a few thousands to spare on the sides, and I wanted these to match the conrod widths. I peck-drilled to reduce the chances of the drill wandering.

With a bit of fussing they fit nicely. The top one has had the draw-file treatment:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7335/12427687755_90d6aeacf0_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12427687755/)

It's all sharp edges at the moment. I'm not sure if I should chamfer all my edges, or just very slightly ease them with a file so they don't feel sharp.

The blocks are held in by pins. After trying to tighten one and have the head spin around, I realised that they should probably have a square section under the head, and fit into a square hole in the conrod; the round head is true to the plans.

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7395/12427689865_d64868f3c6_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12427689865/)

I managed to get them tightened up for the filing, though, so I'll modify them later if necessary.

You can also see that I started preparing material for the bearings  :cartwheel:

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: ths on February 10, 2014, 10:43:19 AM
A slight relief of the edges would be truer to prototype (if there was one!), and would make it look less machined, despite all your painstaking hand work.

Cheers, Hugh.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: fumopuc on February 10, 2014, 07:52:14 PM
Hi Simon, you have again some perfect jobs done. It looks really very good. If you don't want to solder your rods, I am sure some Loctite  or epoxy glue will bring  you on the safe side of this case.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: NickG on February 10, 2014, 09:44:55 PM
Yeah epoxy would prob be a good choice. Very simple calc to see what the max likely stress is though if you know the max pressure you will use - might be worth doing.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on February 16, 2014, 07:09:23 AM
After some time in the garden this morning (things are finally growing after getting some rain here in California), I had a mostly productive afternoon and evening in the workshop (aka garage).

Both the conrods and the crossheads need bearings, so I planned to work on both at once to reduce the number of setup changes. Some bits of my precious Bunting bronze were bandsawed off and milled square, trying to fit the bearings into the minimum amount of raw material. When close to final size I used a thin slitting saw to cut the bearings in two, again trying to save material:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7356/12556154823_7b1980861e_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12556154823/)

The end result was four pairs of bearing parts (two for the crossheads, two for the conrods). I then soldered the pairs together using electrical solder, but this time I remebered to put some punch marks on the mating faces, and use a bit of soldering flux. A bit of solder wire was laid over the joint, then the part carefully heated on the sides with a propate torch on low, to get the parts to melting temperature rather than blasting the solder directly.

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3698/12556042975_669a3e48db_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12556042975/)

Pretty soon the solder melted and wicked into the joint  :ThumbsUp:

Four of those, and we have our bearings in the raw:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2831/12556045055_87e8012e4b_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12556045055/)

I should say a bit about the order of operations here. I'm not sure if this is the usual procedure, but it makes sense to me. For each bearing:
It was at this point, while comparing the conrod bearings with the bearing slot, that something looked a bit fishy  :thinking: Going back to the CAD model I see that I've made a mistake on the conrod, and taken the slot too deep  :hammerbash: However I think I can cover the boo-boo by making the bearing flanges a little wider, but I'll end up with non-square bearings.

Anyway, the conrod bearings were put to one side to focus on the crosshead bearings. First, we make sure everything is numbered so we know where things go on reassembly:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3754/12556159823_0c0f781ff5_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12556159823/)

Then comes the tedious process of getting a close fit of the bearings in their slot. This consisted of milling small amounts off the bearings, lots of rubbing on files, and filing the slots with the help of the red Sharpie. I did find that my previous filing with the guides was still pretty skewed, requiring some squaring up with a 1/8" end mill:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3761/12556528524_742e261ff1_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12556528524/)

I have a second-hand square-section file that has had a face ground down by the previous owner, which turned out to give a very handy safe edge for squaring up the corners of the slot. The Sharpie is also useful to see where things are rubbing as the bearing is test-fitted.

This took about 1-1.5 hours per bearing; here's the first one done:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2861/12556526784_e6834bb986_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12556526784/)

And the second (or so I thought!), marked up for hole-drilling. I'm drilling them in situ, so the hole is square to the part:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3767/12556165033_ce2a55bdc6_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12556165033/)

A machinist's clamp holds the bearing in place for drilling:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3783/12556531484_a082e66376_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12556531484/)

Close to pre-reaming size I did a pass with a small boring bit to make sure the hole was square:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3785/12556168253_383b339a00_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12556168253/)

then reamed with a spiral flute reamer (a straight-flute reamer might have problems with the solder joint):

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7345/12556534864_4bcc94cdb1_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12556534864/)

However, when drilling the second bearing I noticed the machinists clamp wobbling around, and found that the whole bearing was too loose. I'd taken too much off by milling, and holding it up to the light showed the poor fit:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2807/12556058405_3fcba0677b_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12556058405/)

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2890/12556538344_70604f48f2_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12556538344/)

You can see in the second photo how it's only touching in the lower corners. That's bad, because when the bearing is separated, the two halves are going to be really loose, and will probably go askew since they aren't bearing on flat surfaces.

So I remade that bearing, squeezing just enough material out of a couple of bits of bronze scrap from the same stock. The second time the fit was really snug. So, both done, and the reject:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3683/12556062015_5acf1b6c20_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12556062015/)

I left the bearings a little over thickness; I plan to put them on a mandrel and take down the surfaces to leave a slight raised hub, so that the forks of the conrod clear the crosshead and bearing body, and just fit the hub. The forks will need a bit of fitting work too.

These bearings will be split, and shaped for the wedge later; at least I can use them in their current form for test-fitting on the engine  :cartwheel:

That's it for today! Thanks for watching, and with any luck I'll have some progress on the conrod bearings tomorrow.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: fumopuc on February 16, 2014, 08:16:36 AM
Always following along.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jasonb on February 16, 2014, 08:26:53 AM
Simon I was always tought when soldering part slike this to tin both faces first, that is apply a thin layer of solder, wiping off any excess while still hot. You then put the two together with a littel flux and heat to "sweat" the joint together. This tends to give a closer joint with less solder and as you can see the two surfaces you are sure they are fully coated with solder

J
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jo on February 16, 2014, 08:31:18 AM
Soft solder paste does it even easier  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 16, 2014, 01:25:48 PM
Following along Simon. I always enjoy your posts.

Are you in that part of CA with the drought issues? I hope relief is not far off.

You mentioned the spiral reamer might do better than a straight reamer because of the solder.
I've not come across a spiral reamer. Does it help move shavings out of the way?
Are there other cases where a spiral reamer would be preferred? Or rather...what are the advantages?

Thanks
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Doc on February 16, 2014, 02:36:42 PM
 Just caught up on your build and I must say you have done some beautiful work!
And very nice documentation I love it wish I could take nice pictures like that! This has been really nice build and have picked up some nice techniques keep up the nice work!
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on February 16, 2014, 05:35:58 PM
Simon I was always tought when soldering part slike this to tin both faces first, that is apply a thin layer of solder, wiping off any excess while still hot. You then put the two together with a littel flux and heat to "sweat" the joint together. This tends to give a closer joint with less solder and as you can see the two surfaces you are sure they are fully coated with solder

You're right Jason, I didn't follow the normal "sweating" procedure, mostly because I forgot what it was  ;D  But this seemed to work well. I needed accurate matching of the parts because I was already very close to final size (got a bit carried away), and the thickness of the joint doesn't really matter (other than for strength) since it all gets cut away for the bearing gap.

Zee, yes, we're pretty badly affected by drought here in the San Francisco Bay Area. Not in imminent danger of running out of water like some smaller places, but we're at 38% of normal rainfall for the year. What I find odd is that there has been very little public education about what to do to save water  :shrug: Back in the UK everyone would have had flyers through the door by now, and would be getting ticked off by neighbors for watering their lawns too much. Here there's just the odd story on the news and I see lots of lawn irrigation still going on.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on February 16, 2014, 05:40:03 PM
You mentioned the spiral reamer might do better than a straight reamer because of the solder.
I've not come across a spiral reamer. Does it help move shavings out of the way?
Are there other cases where a spiral reamer would be preferred? Or rather...what are the advantages?

Hi Zee! Spiral reamers are useful when the hole intersects, and runs parallel with a joint; with a straight reamer the entire flute is going to encounter that joint at the same time, possily causing chatter or other problems. If I remember correctly, the normal spiral type is a "right-hand cut, left-hand spiral" which pushes the swarf out in front of the reamer.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on February 17, 2014, 06:16:06 AM
Fitting the conrod bearings took longer than expected, but I'm happy with the result.

I milled to create the flanges with a 1/4" end mill. The vise is still accurately set up, and I have a digital indicator set up to track cross-slide movement. After locating on the fixed jaw with an edge finder at the start, I used the indicator to get an accurate slot width which I could repeat for all edges of both bearings.

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7423/12582399164_cc2e68a9ca_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12582399164/)

After getting the slots to depth and width, there followed lots of trial fits with the usual Sharpie marks, pinched fingers and grunting :D

(https://s2.yimg.com/sk/3829/12582056363_5c4d79e28b_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12582056363/)

The end-stop part provided a useful way to test for parallelism, so I could file until it slid all the way up to the base of the slot.

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5546/12581936615_a77242243f_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12581936615/)

So, not too much to show for half a day in the shop, but I'm please with the fit; both are a snug sliding fit.

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7422/12582404624_ec1d81b2fa_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12582404624/)

I left the little end flange overly long, because I have to figure out out how best to hide my boo-boo with the slot depth  :thinking:

I also have to start thinking about how best to open up the slot for the cotter wedge; filing with some guides is the current favourite.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Don1966 on February 17, 2014, 04:28:04 PM
Simon the extra time has payed off, you have some quality pieces there. Your whole project so far you have added that extra attention to detail and that has been a plus as far as I am concern. Great work buddy and I like.......... :praise2:

 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Kim on February 17, 2014, 04:54:25 PM
Hi Simon, I couldn't agree with Don more!  Great work, and wonderful attention to detail.  :ThumbsUp: I'm really enjoying following along with your build!
Kim
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: fumopuc on February 17, 2014, 07:50:09 PM
Hi Simon,I am sure it will be a very extraordinary engine at the end. Waiting for the next steps.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: kvom on February 23, 2014, 09:09:37 PM
Jasonb told me that you were building this engine after I posted my intention to build it from castings.  So I spent most of the morning reading the entire thread.  I was impressed that you are maintaining a lot of the draft angles and other decorative details from the castings.

I've ordered the plan set for the full size kit.  I saw the finished engine at Cabin Fever last year, and have been thinking about this as my next "big" project when my loco build is done.  Since I have a CNC mill, I suspect I'll have an easier time with some of the parts than you will.

Dennis at Heritage Model Engines told me a bit of the history.  Seems 5 modelers in Detroit some years ago used the Muncaster drawings to make patterns and had the castings poured.  However, they didn't get the valve drawn properly and only one of them got a working engine.  It's not clear if the error was in Muncaster's drawing or in their interpretation.  Dennis modeled it in 3D CAD to get a working valve train, and apparently had access to the patterns.  So he's been selling the castings and drawings for 10 years or so.

Enough about my plans for this.  I will mention that with respect to the conrod bearings, I recently saw an example where a loco builder used a solid bronze bearing for his main rods, and then covered them with a thin brass sheet with an engraved line to simulate a split bearing.  Doing this saves the problem of a working wedge.  I'll have to wait until I get the drawing set to decide if that's a good way to go.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on February 24, 2014, 12:38:36 AM
Jasonb told me that you were building this engine after I posted my intention to build it from castings.  So I spent most of the morning reading the entire thread.  I was impressed that you are maintaining a lot of the draft angles and other decorative details from the castings.

I've ordered the plan set for the full size kit.  I saw the finished engine at Cabin Fever last year, and have been thinking about this as my next "big" project when my loco build is done.  Since I have a CNC mill, I suspect I'll have an easier time with some of the parts than you will.

Dennis at Heritage Model Engines told me a bit of the history.  Seems 5 modelers in Detroit some years ago used the Muncaster drawings to make patterns and had the castings poured.  However, they didn't get the valve drawn properly and only one of them got a working engine.  It's not clear if the error was in Muncaster's drawing or in their interpretation.  Dennis modeled it in 3D CAD to get a working valve train, and apparently had access to the patterns.  So he's been selling the castings and drawings for 10 years or so.

Enough about my plans for this.  I will mention that with respect to the conrod bearings, I recently saw an example where a loco builder used a solid bronze bearing for his main rods, and then covered them with a thin brass sheet with an engraved line to simulate a split bearing.  Doing this saves the problem of a working wedge.  I'll have to wait until I get the drawing set to decide if that's a good way to go.

That's an interesting bit of history, Kvom! I'm pretty sure my valve train will work, having done a 3D model for the main engine parts, then a valve simulation to check the valve workings after scaling (http://smfr.org/sim/joys-valve-linkage/ (http://smfr.org/sim/joys-valve-linkage/)). I've no idea if the valve timing is "good", however!

I'm fairly confident that I can do the rest of the parts from bar stock and fabrication, other than the valve guide which will be a real head-scratcher! I still think it's doable by whittling, though.

I've done the wedges; you'll see an update later today  ;D

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on February 24, 2014, 07:19:49 AM
Where were we? Ah yes, all the bearings had been fitted to their square holes, but still needed their tapers and respective wedges.

And to fit the wedges on the conrods, I had to make some square holes. I opened up the existing 3/16" hole with a 1/8" end mill followed by a 3/32" end mill, to reduce the amount of filing required:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2877/12740059364_e915379e51_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12740059364/)

watching a couple of digital indicators to keep the holes to size. Then I decided to use the traditional approach, filing! To help keep things square, I milled up a couple of filing guides from some gauge plate (O-1 hardening):

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3774/12740057764_7f2ae9b470_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12740057764/)

then heated to cherry red, and quenched in water (for some reason I have better luck hardening in water than oil; maybe I just need a bigger oil pot). What I didn't expect was the distortion; the slots pinched in by about 0.005", which required some tedious stoning to make these fit to the conrods. I should have left a bridge piece at the top.

So now I could fit these to the conrods, using a machinists clamp to hold them in place while getting things set up in the vise:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7358/12739590085_0ab53eda87_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12739590085/)

I had to stock up on some files:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3809/12740062704_73b46e3ea2_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12740062704/)

You'd think that Nicholson would have a catolog that tells you the dimensions of each file, right? So you can get a file that fits into a 3/16" x 5/16" hole? Not so! :hammerbash: The catalogue that I managed to find (with some trouble: Nicholoson don't appear to have a web site) only gives length, not width or thickness. So I took my business to Grobet who have a better cataglogue, and found some of their nice pillar files on eBay.

I found that wine (actually beer  :DrinkPint: ) corks make good small file handles:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7441/12739593315_1196dd4455_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12739593315/)

and after some tedious filing, marking up and holding up the light, we get far enough to insert what will become a wedge:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2816/12739591505_71c32fcdf4_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12739591505/)

The wedges started life as some bits of 3/16" 1018 bar, with each end mill down, then turned and threaded:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5523/12739746173_ea0cb64611_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12739746173/)

by holding in the 4-jaw chuck, centering on a punch mark on the end:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7398/12740073864_91ccc4fd8e_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12740073864/)

These wedges have a 4° taper, so we need a wedge to get matching angles. With the help of some trig I use the "two parallels separated by a known distance" technique and use it to mill a bit of scrap Ally:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7298/12740070004_9c2f2482da_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12740070004/)

which is then stamped with the angle for posterity. Here are the bits, with some marks to make sure I cut the angles in the right directions:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5521/12740077064_a6cb10dbea_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12740077064/)

The two wedges are easily done in one go, sitting on the 4° wedge:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7352/12739604075_26248f0e4b_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12739604075/)

Feeling please with myself, I then proceeded to mill one of the bearings undersized  :toilet_claw: and the other with only barely enough on the angled face. At assembly, the bearings should be snug with plenty of travel left in the wedge for later wear adjustment, but the wedge on my better bearing is at mid-travel already, and on the bad bearing it runs out of travel  :hammerbash: I'll rescue the bad one by silver-soldering on a bit of material and re-milling the angle, but I can't do that now because it'll melt the soft solder.

So now it was time to drill the hole in the conrod bearings. They were marked up in situ, measuring from the crosshead hole to get the right throw. The hole center is pretty close to the solder joint, which is good. After a bit of thought I decided to drill the bearings in situ, holding the conrods in the vise, hoping that this would lead to better alignment. With things set up I checked for alignment in two axes; the first:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7420/12739606335_0f34b9dc24_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12739606335/)

looks OK, but the second not so good, probably because I'm clamping down on imprecise faces on the conrod big end:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3685/12739757223_78ea323618_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12739757223/)

A bit of shimming of the vise fixed that:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7440/12740085284_fcd388a561_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12740085284/)

and now I could drill in stages:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7416/12739760843_a04ef52de8_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12739760843/)

leaving a bit to be taken off by boring to make sure the hole is straight:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5473/12739614155_a21a6f7d7d_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12739614155/)

before reaming at low speed:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3763/12739771143_946525a983_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12739771143/)

Both done!

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5544/12739772843_4de8847ca2_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12739772843/)

After some trimming of the flanges, I rounded the corners:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7447/12739777643_8172db8363_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12739777643/)

and we're left with this little lot:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7406/12740111324_18a90e41d5_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12740111324/)

I plan to mount the bearings on an expanding mandrel to skim off the surface and leave a bit of a raised ring in the middle to avoid the main bearing surfaces from contacting the crank throws, so I haven't yet cleaned up the surfaces.

While mucking around with bearings, I also finished off the crosshead bearings. They take a wedge too, so that required another angle, 14° this time, again cut with the help of some trig. It was used to mill down some bits of 1018 steel:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3808/12739631145_0706142b31_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12739631145/)

and to cut the angle in the crosshead bearings, so we can have another fun fitting session:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7321/12739632585_c0c2abfcf5_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12739632585/)

That wedge could have a little more leeway, but it's close:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5515/12739634375_7d7535986a_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12739634375/)

Both done:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3725/12739786163_a7c40134ee_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12739786163/)

These bearings will also get a skim to take them to final width. I presume they should stick out a tiny bit from the sides of the crosshead, to keep the forks from marring the crosshead sides?

Once I've skimmed the bearing faces, they can be separated by melting the solder, any required remediation done, and then the mating faces milled a tiny bit to create a gap.

And when the bearings are complete, I can get back to the crankshaft and actually put some moving parts together  :cartwheel:

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: ths on February 24, 2014, 12:10:41 PM
It's all very special Simon, looks great.

Hugh.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Rivergypsy on February 24, 2014, 12:40:27 PM
Hi,

I've only just caught your build, but very nice work - well done!

Dave
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: vcutajar on February 24, 2014, 04:29:34 PM
Can't wait to see it finished.  I really admire your patience and dedication you are putting in this project.

Vince
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Roger B on February 24, 2014, 07:49:15 PM
Really nice work Simon  :praise2: :praise2: I find it hard to judge the size, but if the files are 'normal' Swiss file size (2-6mm) those are some pretty small parts  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: fumopuc on February 24, 2014, 09:02:17 PM
Hi Simon, that all looks brilliant.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on February 24, 2014, 09:32:59 PM
Thanks for the comments, all! It really helps with the motivation  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Really nice work Simon  :praise2: :praise2: I find it hard to judge the size, but if the files are 'normal' Swiss file size (2-6mm) those are some pretty small parts 

Roger, the squares on the mat at 1-inch squares, to give you an idea of scale.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on February 25, 2014, 06:51:58 AM
I turned and tapped the expanding mandrels last night, and cut the slots today:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3754/12764396505_664e1ec3fa_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12764396505/)

This is the first time I've used the square collet block, but it's ideal for this purpose!

1/4" and 1/2" mandrels:

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5486/12764398125_e60a9e287c_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12764398125/)

If you look carefully you can see that the 1/2" one has expanded out at the end; maybe 303 stainless wasn't the best material for these. It had to be persuaded back to size in the vise. It was usable, but now a bit undersize in the middle.

Next problem: tightening up the screw caused the bearings to pop open, breaking one side of the solder join  :hammerbash:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2863/12764399535_7d6e244e4e_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12764399535/)

so a machinists clamp was pressed into service. To prevent it from being flung across the shop, I threaded a zip-tie through it, and ran at low speed, but that was good enough to skim the surface:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7305/12764547003_e9d3ff5268_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12764547003/)

Before and after:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7359/12764843104_394d6ef524_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12764843104/)

The smaller bearings also popped a seam, but were tight enough to skim without resorting to a clamp:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7316/12764550073_32771b921b_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12764550073/)

The bearings will never look this good again :D (especially after I silver-solder on a bit to fix my earlier over-eager milling).

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5480/12764405435_ef6631f635_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12764405435/)

You'll notice the uneven flange widths on the big bearing, which cover a boo-boo I made on the conrod by making the slot too deep, but once these are fitted to the crankshaft I don't think it will really look too bad.

I still need to put a radius on the inside edge of the bearings. Not quite sure how do do that yet (the radius is smaller than my smallest corner-rounding end mill, so I can't use the "end mill as radius tool" trick).

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Kim on February 25, 2014, 03:06:30 PM
Those look great Simon!  You do meticulous work there!
Keep up the good work. I always enjoy reading your updates!
Kim
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: kvom on February 26, 2014, 06:27:41 PM
I received the full-size drawing set today.  The side lever at the cylinder end isn't show on the plans, so it is almost certainly to operate cylinder drains that might be needed to operate on steam.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on February 26, 2014, 06:36:43 PM
I received the full-size drawing set today.  The side lever at the cylinder end isn't show on the plans, so it is almost certainly to operate cylinder drains that might be needed to operate on steam.

Right. The original drawing show no cylinder drain cocks; I haven't decided how to fit them yet, but am tempted to put them either in the cylinder covers, or coming out of the side of the cylinder block.

The original drawings also don't show oilers on the conrods, crossheads or crosshead slides, just on the main bearings, so I'll have to think about those too.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on February 26, 2014, 07:03:30 PM
Simon, those bearings look great. I think your little offset error actually made them look better. It all looks harmonious. I've had one soft soldered joint fail in the past. On the crank bearing pillars on my present build, I used Locktite SuperGlue. It worked well, Withstood side milling and drilling, as a matter of fact, had to get the torch out to separate the halves.

Whiskey
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: kvom on February 26, 2014, 10:31:46 PM
There is a note on my drawings saying that cylinder cocks, if desired, would be bottom-center of the cylinder bore on each end.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Don1966 on February 27, 2014, 02:53:54 AM
 :slap:Simon you sure do some pretty work and like Eric your Boo Boo is unnoticeable and I still have trouble seeing it. Just awesome bud and I like.......... :praise2:


Don
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 27, 2014, 01:20:32 PM
Looks real good to me.
I appreciate all the build details too (both the good and the boo-boo).
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on March 03, 2014, 07:49:35 AM
A few more bits and bobs doing this weekend.

To make the radii on the inside edge of the bearings, I decided to make a form tool with a small (3/32") radius. Actually two, so I could pick the better one :) These started life as bits of gauge plate. I drilled holes a known distance from the end and one side, then added lots of clearance with countersinks:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7418/12899115205_9241792eb7_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12899115205/)

then the corner was milled away, moving the cutter by distances calculated based on the hole location, to end up with the radius in the corner:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3685/12899212493_44a1ba5717_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12899212493/)

Excess material was ground away, and some filing done to blend the milled surfaces and the drilled hole, and to add clearance. Not much of the countersunk area remains!

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3728/12899537854_b92f3fac3e_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12899537854/)

They were harded by heating to cherry red, holding there for a minute or so, then plunging into water.

Now the bearings need to be set up in the 4-jaw, accurately. I do this with the help of some 1/2" bar held in a collet in the spindle bore, and slide the bearing onto it, then snug up the jaws one by one with approprate packing:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3681/12899220193_fe7c7be916_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12899220193/)

One of the bearings had split by now, so a tap with a ring on the bar ensure the two sides are aligned:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7336/12899129205_35b6a23048_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12899129205/)

The parts are adjusted with the help of an indicator:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7342/12899221803_f5d8bb01b3_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12899221803/)

and then we can make the cut, sneaking up to the diameter and depth with care (some Sharpie marks help show how much is being cut away)

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2886/12899223113_379f15604a_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12899223113/)

4 sides done:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7345/12899226253_884183e583_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12899226253/)

Now the bearing gap can be milled; I put a bit of rod in the bearing and used a height gauge to determine how much to mill on each half, since the joint wasn't quite on centerline. I aimed for a 1/64" gap between the halves (a bit small, perhaps?)

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3740/12899227933_2dd32806c5_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12899227933/)

I don't have any photos, but I made up for the earlier mistake of taking too much off the tapered surface by soft-soldering in a bit more bronze and milling it back to size, so now the wedge travel is reasonable on both conrods:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3824/12899229403_fb7a6322bb_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12899229403/)

So that's the conrod bearings done.

I was keen to make progress on the main (crankshaft) bearings too, so that I can fit my temporary crankshaft, and check the motion of the crossheads. My plan is to drill out the two bearings in the vise, undersized, then to line-bore them in situ.

So they were marked up in situ, then set up for drilling:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3681/12899234053_d17e9f7006_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12899234053/)

up to 7/16". To line bore them, I need a few bits of tooling and fixtures! First, I whipped up a couple of temporary bearing caps, then made a boring bar out of some 7/16" rod:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7296/12899139575_07fe652541_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12899139575/)

The hole for the bit was drilled at a 45deg angle, with a grub screw for bit adjustment, and another from the top to lock the bit in place. There's very little room to play here (only 1/32" sticking out of the rod!) so I had to futz around with grinding down the grub screws!

The other thing I need is some packing pieces under the base to get it to the correct height on the table. I started on those, which you can just see sitting under the base here:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3815/12899556534_0cefc16307_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/12899556534/)

I'll mill them down to height in-situ for accuracy, then clamp the base on top.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: fumopuc on March 03, 2014, 09:52:10 AM
Hi Simon, I am still watching with much interest. Great Job.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on March 10, 2014, 05:17:53 AM
Workshop time is getting a bit more scarce now that work is getting busy, and the weeds are growing in the garden, but I made some progress over the past couple of weekends.

When we left off last time, I had milled down a couple of bits of Al on the cross-slide table to set the base at the correct height. Just to make sure, I check will a drill bit that fits the bearing hole:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3222/13051612483_af91295d07_z.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/13051612483/)

and it goes in nicely, so we're good  :ThumbsUp: Note how little clearance I have at the back of the lathe with the base mounted this way; about 1/4"!

I have to bore each bearing out individually before I have enough clearance for the boring bar, and I wanted to do this with the bearings in situ, so the 1" boring head goes into the lathe spindle, and I bore to about 15/32":

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7436/13051614143_44168a828c_z.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/13051614143/)

then flip the base around, indicate it in using a parallel in the bearing slots, then open up the other bearing:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3529/13051615903_91515236a2_z.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/13051615903/)

Now we're ready for line boring.

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3806/13051467975_362a6a3ec6_z.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/13051467975/)

This didn't go as smoothly as I hoped  :facepalm2: I was getting a lot of chatter on the left bearing but not the right one (which I don't understand; the behavior of the boring bar shouldn't really be affected by the position of the carriage), so I opened up the right one to about 0.494" (leaving enough for reaming), then flipped the boring bar around to try it the other way. Chatter was still terrible:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3484/13051620153_d1fbd15cd0_z.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/13051620153/)

but then I wised up and reduced the RPMs, and things settled down. I wish at this point that I'd been brave enough to just take the bearings to final size by line boring; accurate adjustments of the boring bit were pretty easy with an indicator in place:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3810/13051622103_ae288e6bf7_z.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/13051622103/)

but no, I chickened out and got out the reamer:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3243/13051474485_ec0cf61970_z.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/13051474485/)

which reamed slightly oversize, and left a poor finish  >:(  but neither problem is a showstopper, given that these bearings are adjustable, and will bed in during use. At least a bit of test bar fits nicely:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2179/13051476375_4e8933d24d_z.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/13051476375/)

Now I could finish the bearing faces in the 4-jaw, leaving a nice boss in the middle:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2695/13051478055_3768b7f336_z.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/13051478055/)

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7328/13051805004_0d8ecd28e9_z.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/13051805004/)

but at this point (it was getting late) I made another mistake, and proceeded to put a radius on the outside face of one of the bearings (I guess I was all eager to use the form tool just like the conrod bearings). That face shouldn't have a big radius  :hammerbash: Luckily it's the one behind the flywheel, so will be mostly hidden. Don't tell anyone.

So now that I had bearings, I pulled out my test crankshaft hoping to get some parts running. The journal needed cleaning up, so I made some fixtures to hold the crankshaft to rotate around the journal axis:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7421/13051850074_898fd44a83_z.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/13051850074/)

The bandsaw is a quick way to cut the slot, provided you're careful to set the part at the right angle, and stop it when it breaks though to the appropriate hole:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3164/13051527345_6534fe18ee_z.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/13051527345/)

So we have these, which are mirror images of each other:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3470/13051854314_cb89e266ec_z.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/13051854314/)

I took care to align the journal. That indicator and Starrett base were $5 at an estate sale this weekend; I just had to clean off the sawdust  :ShakeHead:  ;D

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3608/13051679383_4304f1ae01_z.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/13051679383/)

Well, after setting this up between centers on the lathe and putting and indicator on the journal, things were all over the place; I was getting runout of about 0.006", which changed when I tightened up the live center, or even put a bit of pressure on the part  :ShakeHead: so I tried some spacers between the fixtures and the throws, and that helped a bit:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3739/13051858244_03b0625a8c_z.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/13051858244/)

but I wasn't able to get the runout below a few thou. One idea I had to improve these fixtures was to actually drill and ream holes through where the dead center and live center sit, say 3/8", and make two bits of bar center-drilled in one end, and long enough to reach the throws; that would ensure that the tailstock pressure bears on the journal, to avoid distortion of the part. However, it would make turning the outsides of the throws impossible.

I did manage to clean up the insides of the throws with a tool ground for the purpose, and clean up the journal of solder bits reasonably well:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3744/13051860344_5da59be3e5_z.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/13051860344/)

at least well enough to do a test fit with a conrod:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7332/13051685133_0b7ddca9ee_z.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/smfr/13051685133/)

But it was bad news here as well; when rotating the crankshaft, the other end of the conrod wobbles around by about 0.03", so the journal is obviously misaligned. Good thing this is just a test crankshaft  :D

After all these trials with a silver-soldered crankshaft, I'm considering the Loctite and pins method. But I I'll try doing the second journal on this shaft with silver solder for practice, and to see if I can improve on the alignment.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: fumopuc on March 10, 2014, 06:40:24 AM
Hi Simon,
even if things sometimes are not going the way they should, we all have the same problem there, your progress is amazing. At the end this engine will be a beauty. Nobody will take care, or also see, if the crankshaft is soldered or Loctite fixed. This is only a special thing in the builders head.

Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 10, 2014, 10:42:58 AM
Sorry to hear about the struggles. But your skills and attention to detail will no doubt get you what you want.

Looking forward to the next installment.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on March 10, 2014, 04:15:41 PM
Thanks Achim and Zee! I don't really care about the crankshaft since it was always an experiment, but I'm still kicking myself over the bearing!

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Roger B on March 10, 2014, 08:33:27 PM
These things are sent for us to learn from  ;) It's looking good  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

I have always (three times!) made my crankshafts from solid. You make more swarf, but I feel that you are more under control. Nothing can move except for a bit of stress relief.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Florian Eberhard on March 17, 2014, 10:14:49 PM
but I'm still kicking myself over the bearing!

Hi Simon

Thats normal - we all do things like that - because it is in our mind that a reamer must give a good finish.
Guess how many times I used a reamer for "finishing" but the bore turned out not to be as I excepted it. I could have kicked my a** quite a few times for that!!

Florian
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: NickG on March 19, 2014, 07:26:55 PM
I struggled with my crankshaft too Simon, I actually started down the loctite route but I got too slack a fit and the loctite didn't cure so ended up trying to pin it but it had a wobble so ended up trying to silver solder using the lathe as a jig. Just a total nightmare, I've made ones
Just with loctite and no pins for my flame gulpers which worked perfectly but a lot less force going through those.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: sshire on March 19, 2014, 09:53:47 PM
Simon
First rate, as usual. I generally categorize mistakes as a "character building experience." My philosophy is that it's only a bit of metal and I can make another (unless it's the last hole to be tapped in 2 6-hole bolt circles in a part that took 2 days to make and the 1-72 tap breaks. DAMHIK)
I've had very good results with built-up crankshafts. A few are roll-pinned and Loctited, but recently I've gone to tiny taper pins. Very solid and removable.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on March 20, 2014, 12:02:14 AM
I had a terrible experience with the latest silver-soldering attempt (which I'll document once I have some actual progress to make up for it!) so it's going to be Loctite and taper pins. I'm currently trying to figure out how to attach the counterweights, or just make them part of the throws.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on April 06, 2014, 06:36:59 AM
Now that I've made a bit of progress on a good-looking crankshaft, I'll show you what happened to the earlier attempt.

You may recall that I made a "practice" crankshaft with a single silver-soldered throw, so I decided to have another go at silver-soldering on the second throw. This time, I left the journal rod much longer, so I could use a couple of fixture to hold it parallel to the main shaft, but I think this cause more problems than it solved...

Here it is set up with flux for soldering; I tried the "add the solder while hot" rather than using pre-formed rings:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2813/13659203075_3872f1feb9_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/mP1Zci)

But after overly-prolonged heating with my single propane torch, I couldn't get it hot enough for solder penetration:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7115/13659542844_b6717b8680_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/mP3Jco)

What a mess! I think the added mass of the longer journal rod took it beyond the capabilities of my torch.

Time for a rethink  :thinking:

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on April 06, 2014, 06:52:21 AM
My second option was Loctite and pins. I'm hoping this will be the real deal this time, so I spent a bit more effort on the parts.

First, a bit of 1-1/2" x 1/4" gauge plate was marked out for four throws with counterweights, here nicely illuminated by my new IKEA LED lights  :ThumbsUp: (which make photography easier too  :Director:)

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7446/13659222243_62a1c95337_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/mP25TM)

I drilled the journal holes in increments up to 31/64", then bored off a few thou to make sure the hole is straight:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3754/13659223903_6cc424465a_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/mP26op)

then reamed with a nice USA-made 1/2" reamer that replaces the one that made a mess of my bearings  :ShakeHead: The holes turned out to be a nice snug fit to the 1/2" drill rod I'm using for the shaft and bearings.

Excess material was trimmed away on the bandsaw in vertical mode:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7397/13659547584_07210af561_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/mP3KB7)

and the throws ganged together in pairs for trimming on the mill:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7107/13659549724_882d137970_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/mP3Lf1)

You never know when a previously-made angle is going to come in handy  :Lol:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7424/13659229973_876c89af89_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/mP28c4)

So we have two pairs of throws in the rough:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3753/13659216295_f9a346710d_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/mP248e)

Next the counterweight ends were radiused on the rotary table:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3752/13659555084_0cd32d279d_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/mP3MQq)

and the journal ends also; easy because everything is rotating around the shaft hole, located in the center of the table via a bit of 1/2" rod in a collet.

I put a rather timid bevel on the counterweights with a countersink:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3824/13659237773_139df5deef_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/mP2avx)

and probably should have made it more obvious  :shrug:.

The shoulders needed a bit of rounding off, which was tricky to do with files because there's not much space to manoeuver, so a previously ground-down corner-rounding endmill was pressed into service, a bit too eagerly as you can see by the slight extra shoulder in the photo:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2936/13659239693_93e98950e9_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/mP2b5D)

After some amount of filing and rubbing on wet & dry paper on the glass plate, we end up with two pairs of throws:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7029/13659562334_1de580dcc1_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/mP3PZq)

This post is getting a bit long, so I'll continue in a new one.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on April 06, 2014, 07:26:06 AM
The shaft and journals are 1/2" O-1 drill rod (silver steel in the UK?). The reamed holes in the throws are a snug fit on these, so I turned a couple of shallow grooves to give the Loctite a bit of room to do its stuff:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3725/13659227245_aa9fb33b20_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/mP27o2)

and now we're ready for a mock assembly to make sure everything is on hand before applying the Loctite; note the spacer between the throws to keep them the right distance apart.

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3692/13659228755_48d477cf4a_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/mP27Q4)

I used Loctite 603 (high strength, small gaps, no need to handle high temperatures). I did the four joints of one pair of throws at the same time, which was possibly a mistake; once you apply this stuff, it gets everywhere and blind panic sets in as your carefully-arranged setup gets knocked over as you try to get the parts in the right place before it sets up  :lolb:

I managed to get the first pair of throws done, and after an hour or so for that to harden up, built a setup for the second set of throws, which was a little more elaborate  :Lol:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3830/13659572344_2c16a81430_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/mP3SY1)

The 1-2-3 blocks keep the second set of throws at 90deg from the first and that adjustable parallel in the middle is setting the spacing between the throws. Again, a mad scramble to get everything set up with the Loctite, and then working loose the bits that aren't supposed to be stuck to the throws  :Lol:

After curing overnight, things look fairly respectable:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3779/13659237815_7d15752759_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/mP2awg)

Now, to the pins. The plan here was to make tapered pins to match the taper pin reamer I got for this purpose, so I turned some pins from 1/8" O-1 with a taper using the topslide:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3810/13659567334_62da256fee_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/mP3RtC)

then drilled through the throws with a drill the size of the small end, and drilled half-way through with a slightly larger drill:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3679/13659257063_5c966ed3cf_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/mP2gf8)

Here's the reamer, an import #4/0 taper pin reamer:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7224/13659258743_9c5dcc8721_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/mP2gK6)

I started it in the chuck at low speed and light pressure, then recalled that these should be driven by hand;

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3730/13659581934_4f8f10033f_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/mP3VPm)

but wasn't getting anywhere with that; it seemed to get stuck. I went back to reaming under power, and not surprisingly the inevitable happened and the reamer broke:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3710/13659583604_86103e26c6_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/mP3Wj9)

 :facepalm: Luckily I was able to knock the broken end out of the part from the other side. I obviously wasn't doing it right, but what's the right way to use a taper pin reamer? It seems like it's going to be cutting along its whole length once the hole steps are taken off, which, for an HSS tool less than 1/8" in diameter, seems like a lot of cutting pressure.

So, on to the backup plan, which was simple 1/8" reamed holes, which went just fine:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7350/13659264273_813ef073aa_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/mP2ior)

I resisted the temptation to deburr the holes; doing so would leave a bevel which would be visible after finishing.

I parted off the pins for these holes from 1/8" stock, then inserted them with a light coating of Loctite:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2835/13659251005_20405bdf1a_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/mP2erF)

and peened the ends of the pins slightly:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3689/13659268005_65a22b2573_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/mP2juM)

When doing this it's important that the other end of the same pin is bearing the load on the anvil; you're trying to peen the head of the pin, not knock it out!

After a bit of time for the pins to set up, we can now cut off the excess journal material in the bandsaw, being really careful to catch the blade before it falls down and ploughs through the main shaft  :Lol:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7002/13659255755_cc1a02aa5b_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/mP2fRz)

after which the journal ends can be tidied up by side milling:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2818/13659595774_302118e137_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/mP3ZVY)

followed by a bit of filing (the red pen shows what's being taken off):

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7382/13659262165_69baef5f10_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/mP2hL6)

Likewise the pins are taken down:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3670/13659264565_9fc2e39917_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/mP2itt)

and finished with filing. Almost invisible!

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7245/13659266295_98a663af00_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/mP2iZi)

So that's where I'm at for now. Tomorrow comes the slightly scarey part, which is chopping out the shaft sections for each throw. Fingers crossed!

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: fumopuc on April 06, 2014, 08:22:53 AM
Hi Simon, good to to see that you are back on the road with the Loctite solution. To avoid this silver solder mess, I have bought some time ago a cheap laser thermometer/ pyrometer  with a range up to 900° Celsius. Now I am able to check the temperature in the whole workpiece before I start a soldering. This was big a progress in my soldering procedure, so I have never tried again a soldering before the right temperature was there.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: sbwhart on April 06, 2014, 08:38:29 AM
Bin quietly following you build Simon your doing some great work.

I much prefer the Loctite and pin method against silver soldering you end up with a far neater job and more than strong enough to function correctly.

Quote
Luckily I was able to knock the broken end out of the part from the other side. I obviously wasn't doing it right, but what's the right way to use a taper pin reamer? It seems like it's going to be cutting along its whole length once the hole steps are taken off, which, for an HSS tool less than 1/8" in diameter, seems like a lot of cutting pressure.

I also struggle to use taper reamers and run into similar problems to you Simon can't figure out what I'm doing wrong so if any of you guys have any tips they will be much appreciated.

Stew
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 06, 2014, 01:36:13 PM
Good posts there Simon.
Good learnings and good progress.

What end of the pin did you mill down? Just the one opposite the end you peened? Or both? (Cause I'm wondering why you peened.)
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: kvom on April 06, 2014, 02:09:53 PM
That's the way I would do it too.  My preference is Loctite 620 (green), which is an anaerobic formula that sets only when there is no air.  Using this, the grooves you turned in the shafts would be counterproductive.  Any excess on the outside of the joints remains liquid and is easy to wipe off.  It's also strong enough that pins are not really needed.  The full size model uses .75" rod; the larger the diameter being used the stronger the bond.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jasonb on April 06, 2014, 02:41:05 PM
Just need to bear in mind that the bond area my go up by the square but the capacity goes up by the cube so there will be more power being put into the joints on the larger engine. Also depends if you are just going to have it ticking over on air or put 120psi plus of steam through it to get the compounding to work and have it doing some real work.

J
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Kim on April 06, 2014, 04:25:02 PM
Wonderful post Simon, and great progress!  Sorry about your problems with the tapered reamer.  I have no meaningful suggestions, but can relate! Feels awfully familiar!  :-\  I'm sure you'll let us know if you come up with the answer to this one.

Good backup plan with the straight pins though.  Seems like that will be a more than adequate solution for your situation.  And your crank is looking great!

BTW, what do you use for a heat source for your silver soldering?  What kind of torch do you have?

Thanks for your excellent post!
Kim
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on April 06, 2014, 05:27:23 PM
Thanks for the comments, everyone!

What end of the pin did you mill down? Just the one opposite the end you peened? Or both? (Cause I'm wondering why you peened.)

Zee, the peening is really just to get the pin to fill the hole, so that the join becomes almost invisible after cleanup. I peened both ends, and milled off and filed both ends, so the pins just disappear. (I rather liked the look with the pins visible though!).

Kvom, 603 is very similar to 620, but is better for press fits (up to 0.005" gap), and is more tolerant of oil remaining on the parts (according to a handy chart that I can no longer find online  :hammerbash:). Although now I read the chart, 680 may have been a better choice ("resistant to dynamic, axial and radial loads"). I think we're splitting hairs here though!

Jason, I realize these cranks will take some stress if I ever run this at high speed under steam; I'm a bit concerned that, by drilling 1/8" holes, I didn't leave much meat on the throws around the journals. At least this is a part that can always be made again if necessary without affecting other parts! BTW, this isn't a compound, just a straight 2-cylinder.

Achim, I've thought of investing in a laser thermometer. A quick search on Amazon suggests that ones that go into the silver-soldering range are over $100; if it works at food temperatures too, maybe I can persuade my wife to invest in one :D

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on April 06, 2014, 05:29:10 PM
BTW, what do you use for a heat source for your silver soldering?  What kind of torch do you have?

Kim, it's like this: http://www.amazon.com/ACE-AC25-TORCH-KIT7PC-PROPANE/dp/B0044FYTEU/ref=sr_1_22 (http://www.amazon.com/ACE-AC25-TORCH-KIT7PC-PROPANE/dp/B0044FYTEU/ref=sr_1_22) but about 20 years old from an estate sale :)

Yes, I should probably invest in something beefier.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: cfellows on April 06, 2014, 06:19:55 PM
Nice job on the crankshaft, Simon.  I also prefer the Loctite solution over silver soldering, particularly with crankshafts.  I use Loctite 620.  Amazing how fast that stuff sets up, sometimes before I'm actually finished with assembly.   :Doh:

Silver soldering seems to require a sweet spot in the heat range to get a good joint.  Either too hot or not hot enough and the solder won't flow into the joint, just beads up and runs off.  I also worry about the heat warping the crankshaft.

Chuck
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Roger B on April 06, 2014, 06:31:23 PM
Looks like you are working your way through this one  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:   
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: kvom on April 06, 2014, 06:38:58 PM
620 does set up fast, and the larger the contact area the faster.  When quartering the drivers on my locomotive I had to practice sliding on the wheels in one smooth motion without disturbing the setup.  Crankshaft quartering is a bit less challenging.  I have a set of .001" over/under reamers that I generally use for sliding/press fits.

620 is for sliding rather than press fits.  FWIW, when I had to remove a pair of drivers to remake an axle, I had to heat the joints with a torch to 500 degrees and then press it out.  Even with a 20-ton press after heating the joints let go with quite a bang.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 06, 2014, 07:37:55 PM
What end of the pin did you mill down? Just the one opposite the end you peened? Or both? (Cause I'm wondering why you peened.)

Zee, the peening is really just to get the pin to fill the hole, so that the join becomes almost invisible after cleanup. I peened both ends, and milled off and filed both ends, so the pins just disappear. (I rather liked the look with the pins visible though!).


Ah! I'm glad I asked!!!
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jasonb on April 06, 2014, 07:42:51 PM
I'd save the $100 on the thermometer and put it towards a bigger burner. You want something with a 25-28mm dia nozzel and a decent Propane bottle at least 3.9kg preferably more like 7kg and a 4bar regulator. Or whatever your equivalents are.

Also worth getting some flux that is designed to stay good during prolonged heating, its a bit harder to remove but worth having for any large items that take a bit longer to get upto temperature.

I was forgetting its a double high not a compound. The load is not so much from running it fast but the torque that can be generated when the engine starts or if put under load at lower speeds.

J
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on April 07, 2014, 04:24:59 AM
This morning it was time to get the crankshaft ship-shape! I carefully set up in the band saw, ordering the cuts so that the bit of rod being cut was the same bit clamped in the vise (thus avoiding undue forces on the glued and pinned joints):

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7342/13682442323_13207dcb7f_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/mR56pZ)

That meant inside followed by outside cut on one side, flip the part around and repeat. There's a parallel to prevent the part from rotating under the force of cut, and some shims under the ends of the webs for support. Of course I was very careful to prevent the saw from dropping down and cutting the journals.

The saw cuts could then be cleaned up by milling, again following the "clamp the part you're cutting" rule:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3769/13682758794_9fd6c8610e_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/mR6Huo)

The inner webs require something a bit more fiddly to hold them. As part of the great silver-soldering fiasco, I had made the fixture you see here to hold the parts for soldering (but never used it):

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3676/13682771114_d2cc8f6375_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/mR6M9N)

but I finally found a use for it to hold the inner bit of the main shaft for cleaning up these ends:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7326/13682449883_f41c24a77d_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/mR58Ek)

A quick note on how I mill up to a flat surface like this. I have a poor man's DRO (an old indicator clamped between the carriange and a carriage-stop):

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7190/13682418995_3b591487e2_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/mR4YtM)

I'll position the tool for the cut, and then crank the dials until the tool just touches part of the finished surface, then zero the indicator. With an end mill, it's good to rotate the spindle a partial turn and do this a few times, since different parts of the tool will touch. If you suspect the part isn't perfectly lined up, do this on both sides of the cut and take the one with least depth of cut.

Now touch the tool on the bit to be milled away, and note the indicator reading; this is of course how much to remove. Now you can start making cutting passes, being pretty confident that as you get close to zero, you're approaching the finished surface. For these cuts I had about 0.025" to remove and did passes of about 0.004".

With this technique you should be able to get within 0.0005", with the remainder easy to clean up with a file. Here's a cut up to the finished surface, and it shows that either my vise is out of tram, or (more likely) the web isn't quite square:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7347/13682411055_60691de6de_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/mR4W7T)

The four milled surfaces were then cleaned up by draw filing, and given a bit of emery-on-a-stick.

Now we're at an exciting point of first assembly  :whoohoo: I washed some parts, found a couple of bits of 1/4" rod to put in the crossheads, and put everything together. One of the bearings needed a bit of fitting to go between the webs on one side, but apart from that everything fit and turns over fairly smoothly  :pinkelephant:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3744/13683912083_d59246e4ac_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/mRcCjF)

Turning it over found a bit of interference between the conrods and the base, which was quickly relieved with a bit of filing (will be nicely profiled later):

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7310/13683865975_7c3d0ccd14_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/mRcoBH)

and the slides will need a bit more fitting before I can tighten them down. But, hey, this is finally starting to look like something:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3788/13683871865_f2f37bb5e7_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/mRcqng)

I think I'll do the cylinder covers next, and then I'll be building up the valve linkage parts from the bottom up. That should be fun!

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: fumopuc on April 07, 2014, 05:55:05 AM
Hi Simon, great job. I like your crankshaft.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Kim on April 07, 2014, 06:02:47 AM
Great work on the crankshaft Simon!  It looks wonderful!

And I'd forgotten how big your engine was! Wow! :o

Just curious, did you loose any  alignment when you cut the main shaft?  I did the same process on my Marine Twin and believe things snapped out of alignment by a few thousandths when I did this. That was fine for my tolerances though :). Wondering about your experience on this point.

I'm excited to see the linkages come together. Thats really going to make  this engine!
Kim
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on April 07, 2014, 06:13:38 AM
Great work on the crankshaft Simon!  It looks wonderful!

And I'd forgotten how big your engine was! Wow! :o

Thanks Kim! Yeah, it's not small :)

Just curious, did you loose any  alignment when you cut the main shaft?  I did the same process on my Marine Twin and believe things snapped out of alignment by a few thousandths when I did this. That was fine for my tolerances though :). Wondering about your experience on this point.

I didn't get a large amount of spring; I put one end in a collet and got about 2-3 thou of runout at the other end, but that was easy to push around with a bit of finger pressure. The crankshaft seems to run in the bearings quite happily.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jo on April 07, 2014, 07:50:51 AM
It's beginning to look really impressive  :popcorn:

Jo
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: peatoluser on April 07, 2014, 11:28:07 AM
Yes it certainly is. I'm glad you found a use for the soldering fixture. following along with interest

peter
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Don1966 on April 07, 2014, 11:56:51 AM
That's looking awesome Simon and nice job on the crank even with the failure of the other. I like ......... :praise2:

Don
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 07, 2014, 12:28:51 PM
Simon, I hadn't checked in on this one in a while, but I must say its a most impressive build and the finishes are just superb. I'll definitely be checking in more often and looking forward to seeing this one run!!

Bill
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: kvom on April 07, 2014, 12:57:38 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: NickG on April 07, 2014, 01:51:01 PM
Yeah it does look brilliant. Crank came out really good, I was wondering about the loctite too as realised mine is a anaerobic too hence why it didn't set last time I tried! I bet lot of people make the mistake you avoided by not clamping the same bit as you're cutting out too!
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on April 07, 2014, 01:59:28 PM
Brilliant job so far.  Keep it going.

Cheers

Tom
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: ozzie46 on April 07, 2014, 02:01:36 PM
 

 Excellent work. Very informative.
 I'm going to have go back and re-read this thread!

 Ron
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on April 08, 2014, 01:06:15 AM
Thanks for checking in, folks! It's very encouraging to get all the comments.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on April 08, 2014, 01:15:50 AM
Wow great progress Simon!

The crankshaft turned out real nice; and the family shot is especially nice.

Thanks for the update.

Dave
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on April 09, 2014, 06:15:10 AM
Just a brief update to show some progress on the cylinder block and covers.

I centered the cylinder covers on the rotary table, drilled and tapped for the gland studs and drilled clearance holes for the 4BA studs. This was done in one session so that the stud holes started at a known 30deg offset from the axis of the gland studs:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3781/13731600924_f5863eeda4_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/mVq3y5)

The red dots are just to indicate the rough location of the holes to reduces the chances of an idiot moment  ;D

I'll shape the flange later; having the stud holes tapped means that I can attach filing buttons for this if I so choose. One down...

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5027/13731234053_fdbcc0b6c7_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/mVoauH)

The outboard covers were also drilled in the same way. Getting the covers aligned on the table was a PITA; the two clamps got in the way of running an indicator around the outside, and with a single clamp, the part would rotate around the clamping point when trying to adjust its position, so move in unexpected ways  :hammerbash: I moved to a single clamp on an offcut of rod in the middle which helped, but it still look longer to set up than drill 6 holes!

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3775/13731604514_3393c6864c_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/mVq4BY)

Tapping the cylinder block was next; that was easier to set up on the rotary table using a mandrel which is a snug fit into the cylinders, and held in a collet in the bore of the rotary table:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3753/13731237133_077e85a67b_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/mVobpP)

The part was lined up carefully so that the top hole was directly above the cylinder bore, then 6 holes drilled and tapped. There were a couple of tricky ones. For some reason Muncaster put a stud at the top where it could easily interfere with the steam port:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7368/13731238833_6b9bab686c_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/mVobV8)

so I was careful to not break through to the port, but of course that required a short hole with only a few turns of thread engagement. I even ground down the top of my bottoming tap as much as I dared  :o

Two other holes broke through the flanges:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3701/13731200455_b8aac15b92_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/mVnZvr)

but I'm not too worried about these since eventually these cavities will be packed with insulation and covered with some steel sheet.

In general, is breaking through a flange with a stud hole OK, or should you try to avoid this but end up with less thread enagement on the studs? I did drill 1.5x the thread diameter, so the holes are a reasonable depth.

Anyway, the 12 holes went successfully, and everything lines up  :pinkelephant:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3830/13731241723_99ffc529df_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/mVocLX)

You can see I used three taps, with the final one ground as close as possible to the end.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: tvoght on April 09, 2014, 01:31:06 PM
Simon, you've probably shown it before, but what kind of collets are you able to use in your rotary table?

Everything still looking great, by the way.

--Tim
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on April 09, 2014, 03:31:40 PM
Tim, the rotary table (a 6" Yuasa) has a 2-MT bore, which matches what I have on my lathe and mill spindles luckily. I skimmed the head off a screw so it fits on the underside of the table to tighten the collet. The collet does stick up above the table surface by maybe 1/8", but a bit of packing under the part compensates for that.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: tvoght on April 09, 2014, 03:45:20 PM
Ah, well I'm feeling quite stupid for not even knowing MT2 collets existed.  I have MT2 only on my lathe tailstock and - as luck would have it - the bore of my rotary table.

I'm looking into this, as it would be great for the rotary table. I usually pack up work on the rotary table anyway,

Thanks!

--Tim
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on April 27, 2014, 04:41:27 AM
While you all have been gadding around to Cabin Fever and NAMES Expo :Lol: I've been slowing making progress on the Muncaster, but have had a few ups and downs.

Finishing the front-end (inboard?) cylinder covers and their associated piston rod glands went quite well. The covers were held in the soft-jaws (after giving them a skim to fit the part), and the cavity for the gland first drilled:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7239/14024539291_c514e275dd_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nniqVz)

then bored to compensate for possible drill wandering:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7065/14024541781_a0da432e21_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nnirEv)

then reamed:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5325/14027734575_53b84940e7_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nnzNLF)

Now for the glands themselves. These started off as some bronze bar about 1-1/4" in diameter. The inside end was turned down to fit the reamed hole, then drilled, skimmed with the tiny boring bar:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7297/14004619616_0b76d393da_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nkxkuU)

and reamed to fit the piston rod. The part was then held in a collet in the square collet block for sawing off on the bandsaw (less wasted material than using a wider parting tool):

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7381/14028181934_b2eab740b5_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nnC6KL)

The front face and edges could then be cleaned up:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7396/14004621876_05492098d5_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nkxmaS)

However, there was one thing I didn't anticipate! Holding in the collet actually crushed the bore slightly, enough to prevent a bit of 1/4" rod from passing down the center. I suspect this was because the part didn't fit all the way through the clamping part of the collet, so the collet wasn't clamping square. Once I detected that the first time, for later operations I avoided it by both putting a bit of rod through the hole, and by adding an offcut at the back of the collet:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7129/14004623016_1c89b73bb2_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nkxmvw)

I'm sure this wouldn't have happened with a steel part. Bronze seems a lot more prone to getting pushed out of shape by clamping forces!

Now both the flange on the cylinder cover and the glands need shaping. After a bit of  :headscratch: I decided to do this on the rotary table. It is really just a case of joining two radii, but large and small filing buttons wouldn't have worked because they would have had to overlap!

I worked out the angle based on my CAD drawing, and, after drilling the holes, set the angle and trimmed the first face:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7391/14047747793_c67ed95a7a_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/npmo1a)

then rotated 180deg and did the second. Then set for the other angle, and repeat. The final step on the rotary table is to turn the larger radius around the piston rod, joining up with the flats:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7248/14028187654_c8c33b1e2c_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nnC8so)

Looks OK:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5335/14024549091_ceb2995cf7_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nnitQx)

The process is repeated with the cylinder covers, double-checking with a gland to make sure the angles are right:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2899/14024539602_eee8a7cf51_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nnir1W)

and again the larger radius is cut on the rotary table:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7313/14024552621_98b9dda777_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nniuTp)

Now I was all ready to turn the smaller radii on the rotary table too, but thne realized that it would be a pain to set up the parts centered correctly, so decided to go for filing buttons. A quick bit of turning and heat treating:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7121/14024542092_544113052a_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nnirKS)

and we have a couple of filing buttons, and it doesn't take long to blend those smaller radii:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2931/14047754453_fcd96b4fda_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/npmpYZ)

All done!

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5447/14047755583_47e2449d1c_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/npmqjt)

The plans show the glands having slightly larger radii than the cylinder cover flanges, which I agree would make it look slightly more interesting, but didn't really justify the extra setup time.

The other thing I noticed was that the threaded stud holes are slightly wonky; the studs point towards the center a little. This is because the drilled holes partially intersected the stem, so the drill bit deflected, and the tap then followed this divergent hole. It's not a biggie, but I should have caught it.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on April 27, 2014, 04:45:35 AM
Despite the bit of 4BA threaded rod beckoning from the back of the bench, I'm sticking to the straight and narrow and making studs to hold down the cylinder covers (can't be using allthread with Jo watching  :ShakeHead:  :ROFL:)

But these short studs really are a PITA to make. 4BA is 0.142" in diameter, so I'm making them from 3/16" 303 stainless rod. The first stage is easy; turn down to the required diameter, and thread one end with a die in the tailstock die holder.

However, there is very little material left to hold to thread the other end, and my attempts to hold in a collet or in a drill chuck

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7200/14028062715_3941e18d82_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nnBujg)

all ended up with the part spinning, and gouging the threads  :hammerbash:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7084/14024870751_1f21e79df5_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nnk8sp)

So the only way I could figure out how to make these was the more wasteful way: leave on a length of rod to give something to hold onto when threading the second end. At first I left on a 3/32" spigot:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2914/14024858532_740466a680_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nnk4PJ)

but that wasn't strong enough to take the threading forces on the other end, and broke off in the collet:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7217/14048072893_8679aef64b_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/npo3Dk)

So I went with a 1/8" spigot:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2936/14024856602_b53df96c83_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nnk4fs)

which doesn't clear the threads, but that doesn't really matter:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7239/14028065925_f4979cb1af_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nnBvgB)

I knocked back the threads on the clamping section with a file, then parted off the part, flipped it around and held in a 1/8" collet to finish the other end, and finally flipped it around again, held in a 3.5mm collet (about 0.139") purchased as part of this great stud fiasco, and parted off the spigot before finishing off the end with a file.

I've made 5 such studs, with 19 to go  :wallbang: and each uses an inch of material. There has to be a better way, right?

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: fumopuc on April 27, 2014, 07:54:18 AM
Hi Simon, did you ever tried a simple slided bush with a threaded hole inside ? To adjust the length of the stud to be screwed in, a bolt or grub screw be will used from the opposite side as  a attempt. So first one side of the stud will be finished , than cut of and screwed into the above mentioned slided bush, the whole unit  will clamped into a chuck or  collet. Other side of the stud can threaded now.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jo on April 27, 2014, 08:06:00 AM
Simon it sounds to me like your die needs sharpening it is requiring too much force to cut the thread, run a diamond on the cutting edges ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: fumopuc on April 27, 2014, 08:19:01 AM
Hi Jo, thanks, I did not have the heart to write this, but I also assume that is the main reason of the problem.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Kim on April 27, 2014, 04:07:52 PM
Hi Simon,
Nice work on the packing glands and cylinder covers, they look great!
Glad others can help you with your stud making here.  I just copped out and used all-thread. :disagree:  You're stepping up and doing it right!  :ThumbsUp:

Don't forget!  1-1/2 threads showing!  Don't want to run afoul of the Stud Police!  C:-)   :Lol:

Kim
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on April 27, 2014, 06:37:38 PM
Hi Simon, did you ever tried a simple slided bush with a threaded hole inside ? To adjust the length of the stud to be screwed in, a bolt or grub screw be will used from the opposite side as  a attempt. So first one side of the stud will be finished , than cut of and screwed into the above mentioned slided bush, the whole unit  will clamped into a chuck or  collet. Other side of the stud can threaded now.

Hi Achim

I did try a couple of types of threaded/split bushes, and never got along with them for various reasons. Either the stud would get wedged in and be very hard to remove, or the backstop would come loose, or the stud wouldn't be held securely enough. I probably just haven't got the bush right, though.

Jo, the die is a Tap & Die 4BA (HQS) die which really hasn't seen much use so it should be fairly sharp. I'll have to see if I can find a diamond needle file to sharpen it. Alternatively, I could reduce the diameter a little and go for less thread engagement, which should result in lower cutting force.

Kim, I keep the 1-1/2 threads in mind every time  :Lol: I did notice that the thickness of the cutting part of the die was about the same as the desired thread length, which gives a handy way to see if you've threaded enough. I wonder if they do that on purpose?

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Don1966 on April 27, 2014, 08:18:35 PM
Simon you have been doing some very impressive work bud. Some way I keep missing some of you posts.
I believe Achim was talking about a stud holder like the ones G H Thomas mentions in his book " The Model Engineers Workshop Manual" if you have this book look on page 276 Fig. 25.3 Stud Holders. I think this would help you a lot.

Regards Don
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on April 27, 2014, 08:45:36 PM
Thanks for the reference, Don! (Runs to grab GHT book). Looks like I have a bit of reading and fixture making to do  :happyreader:

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jo on April 28, 2014, 05:52:27 AM
I will be interested to hear how you get on Simon: I made one and couldn't get on with it: maybe the thread was a little loose as it wouldn't hold the studs 100% true.

Jo
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on April 28, 2014, 07:03:09 AM
Looks like GHT's fixture only grabs the threaded part of the stud, but I suppose if you tried to grab both the threaded and non-threaded parts, you'd have to be very consistent in the diameters for it to hold securely. It sounds a bit fiddly to make, but I'll give it a shot. A 4BA holder isn't too small...

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on April 28, 2014, 07:14:20 AM
In between fiddling with studs I got the cylinders honed and lapped.

I picked up a brake cylinder hone for a dollar or so at an estate sale, so that was put to use honing the cylinders:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7426/14028068805_80d62854fe_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nnBw8g)

It was pretty slow doing until I upped the pressure on the stones, and ran the lathe a little faster. However, it was really hard to tell if the finish was improving (I don't think these are fine stones?).

I had previously made up a couple of plug gauges from cast iron, about a thou over my original plug gauge, and another thou up from that:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7296/14024877321_ba9c273058_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nnkapF)

so I could use these to check the bores periodically. After honing, the 1.379" gauge slid through nicely, but the 1.380" was a no-go.

I would have liked to have made up a nice Ramon-style D-lap, but had no copper sheet, so modified an aluminium lap made for an earlier project by turning it down from 1.5" and cutting some slits:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5514/14028071505_48556cf372_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nnBwVP)

It already had a taper in the bore, with a matching tapered plug for adjustment. With the lathe running slow and a glove on my right hand, I worked both bores on the lap:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2900/14028072945_d8913610ec_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nnBxmD)

periodically cleaning off with degreaser (boy, what a mess!) to try with the plug gauge. I went up through the grades of green Timesaver lapping compound mixed with some thin (spindle) oil:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7018/14004952006_ebc46b3d9e_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nkz3iL)

and eventually got both bores a sliding fit for the 1.380" gauge. The finish isn't perfect by any means:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7438/14048080183_c2fba571e8_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/npo5P2)

but the worst of the machining marks are gone, and I plan to use cast iron piston rings with a cast iron piston, so I think they'll bed in nicely.

Simon




Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 28, 2014, 12:51:40 PM
Following along Simon.

You mention estate sales quite often. Hm...I wonder if there's much of that in my immediate area.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on April 28, 2014, 05:08:53 PM
Thanks for following along, Zee!

Yes, estate sales have been an great way to build up my machining tools collection. I keep an eye on Craigslist (searching for "machinist") and estate sales come up a few times a year (sadly!).

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Don1966 on April 28, 2014, 09:57:16 PM
Looks like GHT's fixture only grabs the threaded part of the stud, but I suppose if you tried to grab both the threaded and non-threaded parts, you'd have to be very consistent in the diameters for it to hold securely. It sounds a bit fiddly to make, but I'll give it a shot. A 4BA holder isn't too small...

Simon
Simon if you noticed that the stud holder is slit at three places and threaded.  With the nut and the taper the fixture will lock around the threads and the end screw is used to lock the stud in place. GHT also said to put flats before you slit it. It should, if done correctly put your stud dead center. Don't forget to harden the parts.

Regards Don
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on April 28, 2014, 11:46:27 PM
Looks like GHT's fixture only grabs the threaded part of the stud, but I suppose if you tried to grab both the threaded and non-threaded parts, you'd have to be very consistent in the diameters for it to hold securely. It sounds a bit fiddly to make, but I'll give it a shot. A 4BA holder isn't too small...

Simon
Simon if you noticed that the stud holder is slit at three places and threaded.  With the nut and the taper the fixture will lock around the threads and the end screw is used to lock the stud in place. GHT also said to put flats before you slit it. It should, if done correctly put your stud dead center. Don't forget to harden the parts.

Regards Don

Right, I read up about it yesterday. Shouldn't be too hard, but I'll probably be :naughty: and use a die to thread for the nut on the front. Also I don't have any 60TPI taps, so the depth stop thread is going to be 40TPI. We'll see how that goes...

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: kvom on May 06, 2014, 05:11:40 PM
Speaking with Dennis and Lee at NAMES, I found a bit more of the model's history insofar as his castings/kits go.  Seems the Detroit guys actually saw Muncaster's engine in England before deciding to make the castings and build them.  When the first completed version failed to run properly, they did an analysis and it seems that the valve journal pedestal was too close to the cylinder.  When moved away, the engine was able to run successfully. 

Muncaster's drawing shows the distance between the journal center and the main bearing center as 5.375", while Dennis' plans show it as 4.879.  That's almost half and inch difference, or half that in your case.  You might want to give Dennis a call before building these parts.  He's a good guy, and I'm sure would be able to tell you the story here better than I.  Contact# is at http://historicmodelsandreproductions.com/
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Coopertje on May 07, 2014, 08:02:22 PM
Great build simon. Very nice looking parts, setups and write up. Should be an insperation to build this engine too in future. For me at least it is!

Jeroen
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on May 12, 2014, 05:33:28 AM
Thanks Kvom and Jereon, and sorry I didn't reply sooner. Work has been eating up all my time recently  :killcomputer:

I did have some time in the shop this weekend, and messed around with studs. I followed the advice of Achim and Don (and thanks, Don, for pointing me to GHT's book  :happyreader:) and made a stud holder. Since that was a little adventure in itself, I posted about it over in the Tools and Fixtures section (http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php?topic=3649).

So I should be able to make more headway on studs now!

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on May 27, 2014, 06:41:26 AM
I had a bit more shop time this long weekend, and decided to make a start on the valve guide standards, fabricated from brass.

Some slices of brass bar are cleaned up by milling:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5078/14093810538_fd97191c49_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ntqsRq)

and various bits of 1/8" sheet are cut to size in the bandsaw, giving us the raw material:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5475/14278422752_f97a6a821f_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nKJDCC)

These standards have an A-frame shape, so I milled about 5deg off each side of one part to make the A, and milled 1/8 slots in the other two sides, and some slots in the base. I then drilled and tapped for a few 2-56 screws to hold things together for soldering:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3832/14280459705_5d5db686a7_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nKV69v)

Here we're set up for silver-soldering, using Harris 45 (a highter temperature solder, since I have to do a second heat for the head). Some iron wire holds the base in place:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3722/14280460325_eefca4bb9c_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nKV6kc)

and ready to go:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3736/14093849700_10866394ae_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ntqEuC)

The results are reasonable; I could have used a bit more solder and given more of a gap to flow but they are plenty strong enough.

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5566/14093896967_0b68e452bd_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ntqUxz)

Now I did something stupid  :slap: I wanted a nice fillet, so cleaned things up, applied soft-solder flux, heated them again and applied soft solder to the joints:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3820/14257350866_3d8d713b5a_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nHSDGf)

Why stupid? Well, I had another hard solder joint to do, and have read that soft solder contaminates silver solder joints and weakens them (and of course the heat will remelt the soft solder). However, with fingers crossed I soldiered on (no pun intended  :ROFL:)

I marked out for the center of the valve guide axis, and clamped on the milling table, locating using wobbler:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3672/14093898057_954839c4ca_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ntqUSn)

then drilled and bored up to 9/16", the diameter of the head:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3814/14277133941_b9286735e1_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nKC3vK)

Ideally the sides would be tangiential to the head, but this is close enough:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3812/14257352446_40c77c595f_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nHSEau)

A bit of 5/8" brass bar was turned down for the heads (only showing this photo because I'm using HSS cutters more, and am quite please by this finish!)

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3824/14280006024_fc96af0874_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nKSLhq)

and we're almost ready for more silver-soldering:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5570/14300654103_a78247d797_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nMGAeM)

I drilled a hole through the side of each and put in a peg to keep the heads in place for soldering. Here they are after that:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5526/14300654623_52fe20bf05_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nMGAoK)

The silver solder seems to have been taken up just fine, and not adversely affected by the presence of soft solder, though if this were a high-stress part I'd be more worried.

Next came a bunch of cleanup and fettling to make them look more like castings; I only had time to do one this evening, and it could still use a bit of work:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3702/14277136421_85071ac775_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nKC4fv)

and this is what they look like in situ:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2929/14277136841_fbbe5ca5e1_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nKC4nK)

The base of the standard still needs trimming down to size, and I'll drill and ream the center hole in the same setup for accuracy.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jo on May 27, 2014, 07:33:38 AM
They went together well  8)

Jo
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Kim on May 27, 2014, 07:35:02 AM
That's some very fine fabrication there Simon! Well done I'd say.  I think you've got this solder thing down pretty well.
Kim
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on May 27, 2014, 10:41:37 AM
This keeps looking better and better.

Thanks for the pics and explanations.

Cheers,

Tom
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 27, 2014, 12:03:15 PM
Nice job on the boring for the head.
I'm sure I would've taken 3 tries. Only 3...because I'd give up after that.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: fumopuc on May 27, 2014, 02:28:05 PM
Hi Simon, perfect job. Looking really very good.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on May 27, 2014, 03:41:46 PM
Nice work Simon.

Dave
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: ths on May 27, 2014, 04:06:35 PM
I'm intrigued as to how the silver soldering affected the soft solder in the final heating. Great result. Hugh.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: peatoluser on May 28, 2014, 12:14:35 AM
Simon,
 not only is your workmanship first class, but your attention to detail has to be commended as well. I couldn't help noticing the radius gauge used when you fettled the valve standard. First class work .  you certainly put my efforts to shame. looking forward to future updates

peter
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Don1966 on May 28, 2014, 12:30:34 AM
Nice work Simon that came out great. I like................. :praise2:

 :popcornsmall:
Don
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on June 02, 2014, 04:04:20 AM
It was time to get back to the piston rods and pistons. Back in early February I had fitted the piston rods to the crossheads like this:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5491/12401781013_2760301cbc_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/jTUnqz)

but I wasn't happy with that tiny little bit of thread, so decided to change to a larger thread. Luckily I could drill out the existing thread and go up to 2BA, so that's what I did. So the crossheads were set up in the 4-jaw, indicating on the bore of the piston rod attachment:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2937/14138979769_66fbaa991e_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nxpY6g)

drilled close to 2BA tapping size, staightened out with a lick of the boring tool:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5080/14322308431_d35a3c5fce_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nPBzjg)

then tapped 2BA. Some new piston rods were then turned and threaded on one end to match:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5545/14324971584_1590fb7464_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nPRdYG)

I've started using this parting tool to get into square corners, rather than using very expensive carbide inserts on the Nickole holder that are prone to chipping  :hammerbash: This guy can easily be honed on the diamond stone to bring it to sharpness  :ThumbsUp:

A test fitting, and the rod sits just shy of the inside surface, which is good (if it stuck out, it would interfere with the bearing brasses):

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2906/14325647525_793a105df9_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nPUFUR)

Now I can start on the pistons, using some cast iron with an HSS tool:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2917/14138983238_ee40c3f4a6_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nxpZ85)

I left them about 5 thou oversize to turn down later when fitted to the piston rods. The center was drilled and reamed (starting afresh for each piston to minimize drill wandering). After making a starter groove to give me the width, I sawed them off on the bandsaw:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5591/14323872522_15c9680b0a_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nPKAgm)

I don't have a photo of finishing the other end, but I held them in the soft jaws in the 3-jaw chuck, took to width, did a little bit of trepanning and bored a recess to take the nuts. I'm a bit torn between removing more material on the pistons to reduce the reciprocating mass, and keeping the dead-center cyclinder volume low, but I'm not sure that really matters.

Now I have the slightly oversize pistons, and need to determine the correct piston rod length for correct piston travel. To help with this I fashioned a small locking collar and made use of one on my bore gauges:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2933/14139029310_fbf2188774_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nxqdPq)

Luckily the screwdrivers fits through the steam passage to tighen the collar! With the collar still on the piston rod, it's fitted in a collet and the end section turned down to 3/16" (here marking the end of the end section using a chip-prone carbide insert):

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5564/14345838093_28f9960b26_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nRGaS6)

I was careful to get a nice snug fit of the pistons on the rod.

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5113/14345838713_64572a1f68_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nRGb3M)

At this point I discovered that one of my rods was too short (after losing material on the other end when I re-did the crosshead attachment), so I had to order more 1/4" 303 stainless before I could make a new rod.

So here are the bits:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5234/14138990028_7c7c3696ef_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nxq299)

and now we're ready to take the piston to its final size when mounted on the piston rod:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5525/14322317531_0089b9e402_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nPBC2a)

I went down to about 1thou under the bore size; just enough for a tiny bit of wiggle of the piston in the bore. I think I'll use piston rings  :thinking: but I want to be close enough that I can run without if I want to.

Time for a trial fit!

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2940/14322318401_877b39e242_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nPBCha)

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5543/14345843623_0afdff8984_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nRGcvr)

Things are a little tight; I need to take a few thou off the bottoms of the crossheads to relieve some binding, but it was pretty close!

I feel like I'm making good progress with this build now; it feels like I'm about half-way through. The next set of parts make up the valve linkage, which I'll be building from the bottom up. I think the only really tricky part left is this guy:

(http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2470.0;attach=17026;image)

so I'll be mulling over how to put that together while doing the more tedious links!

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Kim on June 02, 2014, 06:44:07 AM
Looking great Simon!  Still following along enjoying your build  :popcorn:
Kim
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on June 08, 2014, 06:57:38 AM
Thanks Kim!

I'm building up the valve linkage from the bottom up now. The first part to be made is the bottom link pivot, which sits under the top deck of the engine, so is out of sight. That's not an excuse to make it sloppily, though  ;D

It started as a bit of 1018 1/2" square bar. After milling it to size, it goes into the 4-jaw to turn the pivot on each end, which needs to be a good fit for 3/16":

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2927/14348109336_03f01011c4_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nRTP2s)

I'm using a bit of scrap with a test drilled/reamed hole to test the fit. A few tenths here can made the difference between no-go and a rattly fit, so in cases like this I set up an indicator to give me accurate cross-slide travel:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2907/14184564009_94b04e500f_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nBrAGr)

Even tightening the gibs can add a couple of tenths to the cut.

After doing the first end, it's flipped around but the base surface kept against one jaw that's left alone to preserve location.

Both ends done now:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3871/14348110136_cd4e46c213_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nRTPgf)

Those angled bits were done by tilting the part in the vise:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2908/14184763377_c4e0139641_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nBsBXP)

and using a radius end mill to get a bit of a fillet in the corner. Then it's mounted flat to take out the middle, and skim a bit off the upper part of each side.

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5117/14184748727_8f0da95e8e_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nBsxBe)

After drilling the holes and adding a bit of clearance, and tidyup with files, here's the result:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3909/14370290524_8e72f45a05_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nTRuHJ)

Next up, the two curved links that pivot on the pivot block, and poke up through the holes in the engine base. These started as one of the 1144SP offcuts from the great conrod adventure, squared up with the big end mill:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2927/14371222645_edeb9f270f_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nTWgNM)

Here we are, all marked up and ready to go (or so we think!). I managed to fit both into the one plate, but space is a little tight:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3843/14391403013_eaef904393_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nVHGJa)

Well, I milled the first side, went to offset for the other side and something didn't work out  :hammerbash:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5522/14370305824_4ea5658e8e_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nTRzgw)

It turns out I marked them up with a width of 5/32", not 7/32" as called for by the plans. After a bit of  :thinking: I decided that sticking with 5/32" would make them a bit skinny, so a new bit of offcut was squared up, and marked out again. I first drilled the holes, including a hole which is at the center of the curved part (to make the rotary table work easier later), then milled slots on the straights in several passes:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3877/14184655880_5ecc7dd2ca_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nBs51q)

I stopped about 0.03" before breaking through, so the parts will be held on the plate until later, as you'll see. Here we are with the straight cuts done:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3905/14371224745_1c3ece5ddd_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nTWhqZ)

Before setting up the rotary table, I made some filing buttons to help with this and some later parts:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5532/14184613488_eb9f7bf72e_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nBrRpw)

and these got a bit of heat treatment to harden them.

Now we're up for some quality time with the rotary table. I have some handy pins of various diameters that fit into a collet in the center of the table, so after centering up the table, it's easy to just drop the part over the pin and know that it's on center. In this photo I've also put a filing button in place with a short length of 1/8" bar, to prevent over-eager turning near the end! With this setup, the curved parts of both links are cut (again leaving about 0.03" of plate):

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3913/14370308054_4be0b137fc_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nTRzVY)

and then the four ends can be rounded off, locating the ends of the links on the central pin, with a filing button for safety. It's easy to bring the tool up to the filing button until it just starts to spin, then set the carriage stop to know where how much to take off:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5031/14391407853_a4e1e6ace8_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nVHJaB)

We're getting close now:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3910/14184589869_10b7f8ffae_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nBrJoi)

The next step is to go around the link ends with a radius endmill to make the fillet, and take the central part to its 1/8" thickness, which is quick work on the rotary table, but this time, after doing the top face, we flip the plate over and do the other side. This cuts away the joining bit of plate, which starts to free the part:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3905/14367902481_f802275226_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nTDfQz)

and after 8 such cuts, we have:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3843/14371229805_869750a32e_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nTWiWe)

The final steps are to mill away 1/32" of material on either side of the plate, which finally frees the part:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3844/14370312844_83d95d79d9_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nTRBmy)

leaving us with:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3913/14367903901_e7db48ef06_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nTDgg4)

The machining marks are easy to clean up with files, but it does take a while. Here's how the links fit on the pivot block:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2902/14367904291_ac0a2ccc92_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nTDgnM)

and where they'll go on the engine, looking at the underside of the base:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3890/14184620338_2525424d06_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nBrTrC)

There are two more links in this valve linkage, one of which has no drawing in the Muncaster plans  :hammerbash: so we'll be using a bit of interpretation for that one!

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: fumopuc on June 08, 2014, 07:10:52 AM
Hi Simon, nice and  done perfectly.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Kim on June 08, 2014, 07:29:53 AM
Nice work on those links and pivots, Simon!  A lot of work went into those parts! :)
Kim
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jo on June 08, 2014, 07:44:14 AM
Well done  :ThumbsUp:

Do you know the geometry for the missing link?

Jo
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: kvom on June 08, 2014, 01:10:03 PM
Since he modeled the gear action in software, I think the hole spacing should be good.  Otherwise the form of the upper link is analogous to the lower.

You just need to have the slot that straddles the conrod be long enough to clear it over the entire motion.  Similarly, a shorter slot that straddles the valve link needs to be long enough.  If you finish all the other valve pieces beforehand, then it will be pretty simple to measure.

I've attached a cutout of the drawing from the fullsize plan.  It doesn't show the lengths of the slots either, but has some overall dimensions you can work with, appropriately scaled.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Don1966 on June 08, 2014, 02:39:54 PM
Simon that was some excellent work at fabricating those links.

 :popcorn:

Don
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Johnmcc69 on June 08, 2014, 03:31:27 PM
That's some beautiful work Simon!!

 John
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: cfellows on June 08, 2014, 04:05:55 PM
Lovely work, Simon.  I admire your patience.

Chuck
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: tvoght on June 08, 2014, 04:15:30 PM
Fantastic rotary table work. The pivot pin in collet idea is a great one.

--Tim
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on June 08, 2014, 08:21:50 PM
Thanks for the comments, everyone!

Jo, yes I know the geometry of the "missing link" having written a simulation of the valve motion, and, after checking a few things this morning, my scaled dimensions give results that are pretty darn close to the intended design, as far as I can tell. I'm still curious as to why the supplier of the castings had to move the pivot supports; maybe a misread dimension on the original drawings (of which I've found a couple)?

With any luck, I'll have another couple of links done today.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: ths on June 08, 2014, 11:26:40 PM
Really terrific work on the links Simon, like the rest of the job. Hugh.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on June 09, 2014, 01:47:34 AM
Nice work on the links Simon.

Still following along and enjoying your progress.

Dave
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on June 09, 2014, 07:14:39 AM
Thanks Hugh, Dave and everyone else who popped in for a look.  :cheers:

First order of the day today was to fit the link pivot to the underside of the base. I got the base set up up-side down, and squared up, then indicated off the bearing slot, and moved over to where the pivot bolt holes go, and it lined right up with my earlier scribed lines, which is always good  :ThumbsUp:

Space is a bit tight for drilling and tapping, but things went fine.

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3885/14400341273_84dafb54f2_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nWvvL6)

I noticed on the CAD model how close these two threaded holes were (the other one is for a crosshead slides stud), but they don't interfere.

So that's where the link pivot goes:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3866/14357071276_356799c0ff_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nSFK6E)

Now to get one with another pair of links. I'm calling these "forked links". A bit of bar was milled to size, and one link marked up on each end, then holes drilled for the linkage pins, and to make centering on the rotary table easier a bit later on:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3898/14380167815_cc52eb28e9_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nUJ7TR)

I separated them, then rounded the ends on the rotary table:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3910/14193727967_caebae7f39_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nCfyPH)

That over rotation looks like a mistake, but the link is tapered so the material will be milled or filed away to the scribed line.

Those locating holes were then used to make the "waist" shape on the rotary table:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5472/14376834621_45b332ec19_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nUr33Z)

Next was to mill the slots, taking care not to crush the part in the vise. The slot drill is 1/32" under the slot size; I went down in 0.03" passes, then took the required 0.015-ish off each face.

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3886/14379208204_4cca031bcf_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nUDcCQ)

and this is where I ran out of time:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5117/14193529509_b27e29a382_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nCexQ2)

I can now fit these to the end of the curved links and the conrods, and start to see some valve train motion going  :pinkelephant:

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: ths on June 09, 2014, 10:16:46 PM
It was the Queens Birthday long weekend over here, good to see you celebrated it as fully as you did! Hugh.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on June 12, 2014, 06:23:15 AM
Well, now I'm not so happy with Mr Muncaster  :hammerbash:

(http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2470.0;attach=17464;image)

He has interference between the forked link and the oil well around the slides even in the original plans. Looks like I'll have to leave a big gate in that oil well wall, and on my base, make a bit more clearance for that link on both sides.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Kim on June 12, 2014, 08:55:03 AM
Ugh.  That's a royal bummer Simon.  Its enough to make a guy wanna cry  :'(
Kim
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jo on June 12, 2014, 09:47:10 AM
:facepalm:

Jo
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: kvom on June 12, 2014, 03:14:46 PM
I compared the Muncaster drawing to the plans I have.  Muncaster has the lower link 3/4" thick (as I read it on pg. 320), while Dennis drew it .438".  The pins are 3/16 in either case. The lower part is tapered up to the middle hole, which would also give some clearance.

In any case, Dennis' assembly drawing does show it very close to the wall of the well.

When I look at other dimensions I have vs. Muncaster, I see some other differences that could cause the  link to give more clearance with the conrod at BDC:

1) The distance between the pivot pin and the crank center is 10.129 vs. 10.5".

2) The vertical distance from the pivot pin to the crank CL is 1.888 vs. 1-3/16".

3) But the biggest difference by far is that the linkage hole in the conrod is 4" from the piston end vs. 3.5 for Muncaster.  Since I'm sure you don't want to remake the conrod you'll need to fiddle with possible small changes and then recheck any changed dimension with the valve simulator.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on June 12, 2014, 04:09:01 PM
I compared the Muncaster drawing to the plans I have.  Muncaster has the lower link 3/4" thick (as I read it on pg. 320), while Dennis drew it .438".  The pins are 3/16 in either case. The lower part is tapered up to the middle hole, which would also give some clearance.

In any case, Dennis' assembly drawing does show it very close to the wall of the well.

When I look at other dimensions I have vs. Muncaster, I see some other differences that could cause the  link to give more clearance with the conrod at BDC:

1) The distance between the pivot pin and the crank center is 10.129 vs. 10.5".

2) The vertical distance from the pivot pin to the crank CL is 1.888 vs. 1-3/16".

3) But the biggest difference by far is that the linkage hole in the conrod is 4" from the piston end vs. 3.5 for Muncaster.  Since I'm sure you don't want to remake the conrod you'll need to fiddle with possible small changes and then recheck any changed dimension with the valve simulator.

Yes, I suspect that Dennis shifted the entire valve linkage group over by 1/2", and adjusted the links to compensate. Now I see why!

So now I have to decide whether to muddle through with the current geometry, or do a similar adjustment and re-make the conrods  :facepalm:

[Edit:] After fiddling with the CAD model, I think I'll just change the look of those oil well walls and keep things as they are. I was worried that the next link would hit the slides, but there's about 0.032" clearance :)

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Roger B on June 13, 2014, 08:07:06 PM
That's not good, but it looks like you're on your way to a solution  :ThumbsUp: Still following along.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on June 29, 2014, 04:32:55 AM
I haven't posted for a bit  :stickpoke:, but that doesn't mean I haven't been busy in the garage! After a bit of a :thinking: I decided to keep the geometry the way it is now, and figure out some way to do the slides (with/without an oil well?) later. I may re-make the bottom slides and accompanying oil well as one part.

The links I had almost finished last time were quick to finish off. Some shims under a bit of 1/8" bar through the top end give the right angle for milling:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2939/14238146799_b89967db94_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nGbdZD)

and I then removed the milling marks with some draw-filing under the magnifier. The small screwless vise comes in handy to hold the part in the bench vise:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2928/14424802255_294f5fa1c3_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nYETaa)

I needed to do a couple of other things before I could hook up the conrods to the partial valve linkage. First, the conrods need a small bronze bushing, which was made from a bit of scrap bronze soldered to a stub of brass so I could hold it in the chuck:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2922/14238201588_d53ff3c29f_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nGbvhh)

Those are a light push fit (assisted with a tiny bit of Loctite).

The second thing was to file some clearance on the base to allow for the linkage motion:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3877/14238341807_2b8c86d3d8_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nGcdXR)

There was less clearance required than I thought, and I can easily enlarge the base holes a bit and blend these in with a radius.

Now with these bits fitted, I could actually turn over the crankshaft and see some linkage motion. Yes, I spent several minutes just turning it over and just watching things move :D

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3882/14238149059_27d2c8438d_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nGbeEB)

The last three weekends have been taken up making the valve guides, but I'll start another post on those.

Simon

Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Kim on June 29, 2014, 06:35:48 AM
Looking great Simon!  Love those links  :ThumbsUp:
And the assembled shot is looking very busy now.  Can't wait for a video so we can see all that cool motion too!  :popcorn:
Kim
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: fumopuc on June 29, 2014, 11:39:55 AM
Hi Simon, still following quietly.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: gbritnell on June 29, 2014, 12:00:27 PM
Outstanding work as usual Simon. The mechanical complexity with all the links is enjoyable to look at.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Don1966 on June 29, 2014, 03:40:32 PM
Simon glad to see you back at it. Looks like you have overcome you obstacles with a bit of engenuity. Love the linkage work it's very fascinating to watch. Nice work bud I like............ :praise2:

Don
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on June 30, 2014, 07:56:49 AM
It was finally time to tackle the valve guides (I suppose this part could be described as the trunnions; the guides are actually separate bronze arcs that screw into this part). Just so you know what I'm talking about, here are the plans:

(http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2470.0;attach=17026;image)

There are some tricky curves here that required a bit of :thinking:.

I started with a lump of mystery metal:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5506/14527785541_9fea5d26a9_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/o8LGv4)

This came from the estate sale a model engine machinist and there were two of them, so I suspect it was purchased to make crankshafts. I guessed it would therefore be easy to machine, and that turned out to be correct. After a bit of cutting, I'm pretty sure this is 1144 (Stressproof). Just the ticket!

I trimmed it to length in the bandsaw (actually a bit shy of what I needed, so I'll probably end up with some visible center drill holes in the ends; is that bad form for a finished part?

As with the conrods, I cut off the sides in the bandsaw, cutting one side at a time, and machining each after cutting to keep things square:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3863/14508066506_602634c827_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/o72CHG)

I've found that I can tap the part to line it up in relation to the blade travel, by having the blade just rub on the vertical surface and tapping until it rubs in the same way all the way down; that way I can get a pretty darn straight cut over the 4.5" length or so. After cutting off three sides, I realized i could probably have started with some flat bar  ;D (not that I have any in stock of the right size).

Some excess material was cut away with a combination of bandsaw and rougher mill:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5536/14531171395_d6a74966a3_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/o953ZR)

Now things start to get interesting. There are curves on two axes here, so I was thinking of those "hoops" as part of a sphere, whose axis happens to lie a little above the axis of rotation. That prompted a rare excursion for the ball turner to rough out those parts, after locating the part in the 4-jaw chuck. There's a lot of overhang on the ball turner, but I was able to fit a 1-2-3 block and some shims under the cutting head to stiffen it up:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5515/14508067706_a66441602a_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/o72D5o)

That leaved me with this:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3860/14344718057_f5e0d60ab0_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nRAqV8)

In hindsight this wasn't really necessary; I could have done the rough milling on the rotary table later, but it did make things quicker and it was rewarding to see a partial shape emerging.

Now the main shaft could be turned down (at this point to 3/8", rather than the final 1/4") which was done in the 4-jaw since accuracy wasn't critical:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5587/14530169802_87d665cb9b_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/o8YVg1)

which leaves us with this:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5472/14344605188_867e76166f_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nRzRn7)

Now I used the rougher to get rid of the bulk of the material between the "webs":

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3924/14344542330_43e5cb9403_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nRzwFm)

Remember I said that the "hoops" form part of a sphere with its axis above the axis of the shaft? To help with shaping these on the rotary table later, I made a couple of eccentric collars which can be clamped down on the shaft:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3838/14344568659_9ddaf45da2_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nRzEvi)

making sure I had a flat on each so they could be lined up with each other, and the part:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5197/14529719514_3a014b0595_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/o8WBpq)

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2931/14344608508_c0c22dc676_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nRzSmm)

You'll see those in use later.

The bulk of the shaping was done on the rotary table, so I needed a fixture plate to locate everything, and provide enough clamping room for a couple of V-blocks etc. A bit of Al plate was cleaned up with the face mill:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3854/14530172072_b28c592ae8_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/o8YVW9)

(interesting patterns there from unsupported center of the plate ringing as it was cut). This plate has holes for setting up to cut both sides of the part, so two locating holes which will be held at the center of the rotary table with my usual pin arrangement (2" apart matching the inter-cylinder distance of the engine), some holes for clamping to the rotary table at each position, and milled recesses to accurately hold two V-blocks at the appropriate places. Various other threaded holes accept hold-down studs, threaded under power with this handy spiral tap:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5588/14530172812_e7dda17f5e_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/o8YW9U)

Before setting up the rotary table, I took off as much material from the part as I dared with a big ball-end mill:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3907/14344609178_9149d86b6f_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nRzSxU)

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3894/14508073836_04114d2ecf_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/o72EU5)

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5551/14344610468_9fd1d8c38a_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nRzSW9)

Now down to business. The rotary table is set up, and the plate located on the pin for the rear webs in this photo:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3890/14530176242_fb22870c2e_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/o8YXb3)

You can see the V-blocks in their recesses; the back one is pushed back a little to give some tool clearance, but the closer one is in the right spot, and of the webs pushed against it to locate the part. Now with this arrangement, I can take some reasonably heavy cuts by side milling to get the outer radius closer to final size:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3909/14530176822_29d1c4dff7_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/o8YXm3)

After each cut, I rotate the part in the V-blocks, which is where those eccentric collars come into play; they make sure the axis of rotation here is correct for the hoops. Here you can see I've done one side, then moved the plate for the second side and taken a few cuts:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3909/14527796701_6e50ec3955_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/o8LKPt)

After those roughing cuts I used a 3/16" ball-end mill for the final shaping:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2900/14531182255_8bc0392a2c_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/o957e6)

At this stage I just clamped the part with no rotation, and used a spreadsheet I generated from my drawing to step off the cuts. I could go all the way across the outside, then worked my way over the top and cut the inside surface between the webs:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3918/14508076266_a044c67667_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/o72FBY)

Progress so far (on top of the step-off chart):

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2908/14344547980_97c4448ccb_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nRzymL)

The part was then turned over, and a second set of step-off numbers used to shape the underside:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5532/14344614328_4a14d52d14_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nRzU5G)

One side done, one to go:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5573/14531184475_92200797df_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/o957Tn)

Now we can start filing! Here I've just started one one side:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5559/14538942574_2ff9a2bf1f_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/o9KT6G)

I've learned with filing not to be too timid! You have to start with a nice coarse file to get rid of the machining marks and do any additional shaping, and only then move onto the finer files, largely just to remove the marks from the file before. After working my way down to Swiss files, I used some strips of wet & dry to remove the filing marks:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3913/14537057571_331c2a2b20_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/o9AdKD)

Inevitably you have to go back to files and clean up some spots, and in some cases you can't really see the final shape until the surface has some shine to it.

There's one thing left to do before I start the final machining on this part! Cutting away so much material made it go a bit banana-shaped (seems to happen even with stressproof steel), so I needed to persuade things back into alignment. I tried bending it cold in the vise, but it wouldn't take. So I drilled a 3/8" hole in a bit of bar to act as a handle, put the part in the 3-jaw, and applied the propane torch. I did one web first, with an indicator on the central section of shaft, then when that was close, did the other web (otherwise one web would have likely bent more than the other).

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3857/14539713162_13738f5072_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/o9PQaG)

When it was hot a bit of pressure on the end of the bar could actually get the bend to stick. After getting it within about 0.08" runout I flipped it around and corrected from the other end. I still have 1/8" to take off the shaft, so I have plenty of wiggle room.

So, a final polish after the heating, and I'm left with this:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3905/14540437655_bb06580e91_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/o9TxwX)

Next will be taking the shaft down to 1/4" between centers.

Congratulations if you made it through this never-ending post, and thanks for following along!  :cheers:

Simon

Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: tangler on June 30, 2014, 09:09:51 AM
No, thank YOU for taking the time to record it for us.  Astonishing
 :NotWorthy:

Thanks,

Rod
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jo on June 30, 2014, 09:29:43 AM
Its parts like that that we all dread but once they are done  :whoohoo:

Jo
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Roger B on June 30, 2014, 11:10:59 AM
Thank you for posting that  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp: That's a really complex shape and some very clever machining solutions  :praise2:  :praise2:
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on June 30, 2014, 12:03:10 PM
An amazing bit of machining there ... Thank You.

Excellent pics and description.

Tom
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: kvom on June 30, 2014, 01:03:01 PM
I have to say that was pretty incredible.  In your shoes I would have made the shape a lot simpler given that the engine was not a commercial product where fidelity to prototype might be a primary goal.  I've considered machining mine from stock given the problems with the castings I've been having.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on June 30, 2014, 01:22:41 PM
Beautiful job on a complex part!

Dave
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: tvoght on June 30, 2014, 02:20:58 PM
Outstanding work. I always appreciate seeing your setups. Clever use of the ball-turning tool, whether you needed to or not!

--Tim
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Kim on June 30, 2014, 04:02:48 PM
Hey Simon,
That is some really cool work!  Thanks for sharing it with us.  I was riveted the entire post.  You writing consistently interesting excellent explanations.  I learn a lot from reading your build logs.  Thanks for taking the time to do it.

And the part is looking fantastic.  That's a lot of work and a lot of setups for one part.  Can't wait to see it finished!
Kim
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on June 30, 2014, 04:39:57 PM
Thank you Rod, Jo, Roger, Kvom, Dave, Tim and Kim!

Kvom, to me this part and the associated guides "make" the engine, since they are so visible on the the top and draw attention to the unusual valve mechanism, so they have to look pretty! I'm quite looking forward to doing the bronze slides, and then we'll really see what the assembly looks like!

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: fumopuc on June 30, 2014, 07:30:09 PM
Yes Simon, as everybody already said, that is an outstanding job.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Don1966 on July 01, 2014, 02:47:21 AM
Thank you Rod, Jo, Roger, Kvom, Dave, Tim and Kim!

Kvom, to me this part and the associated guides "make" the engine, since they are so visible on the the top and draw attention to the unusual valve mechanism, so they have to look pretty! I'm quite looking forward to doing the bronze slides, and then we'll really see what the assembly looks like!

Simon
Beautiful work Simon and I have to echo what everyone else has said. Thanks for sharing this with us. And I have to agree with you those details no matter how complex they are make an engine more distinguish and unique. There is no rush to finish and engine and the time spent is worth the efforts when it's complete.


Don
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Maryak on July 01, 2014, 04:12:50 AM
No, thank YOU for taking the time to record it for us.  Astonishing
 :NotWorthy:

Thanks,

Rod

Me too Simon.  :praise2:

Best Regards
Bob
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on July 06, 2014, 04:44:42 AM
Thank you Achim, Don and Bob for following along and commenting  :cheers: With the July 4th holiday I've had an extra day of shop time this weekend, so there's a bit more progress to show.

The shaft of the valve guides needed taking down to 1/4", so that was done between centers. I sacrificed a bolt to make a couple of bits of threaded bar, and with some lock nuts made spacers between the webs, to try to keep things in line:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3856/14584085965_56f9f84151_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/odKfE2)

These are wrapped them in tape to keep them from being thrown across the workshop. :)

Then I turned one end, which I hit pretty close :D

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3864/14397556057_31db903480_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nWgeP8)

and the other end not quite so good, but still a nice snug fit to the standards that this fits into, which is what I was aiming for. While between centers I tried to turn down the middle to 1/4", but that was horribly chattery, so I gave up and gripped the part in the 4-jaw to finish the middle:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3862/14583235172_5af610052a_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/odETKb)

which worked much better. Alignment isn't really an issue here; this part only moves when the operator adjusts the valve timing, so no-one's going to notice if it doesn't quite line up with the ends :D

Time for a beauty shot:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5033/14582152464_d61d728471_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/odzkTN)

I still have to countersink the standards so they fit against the webs.

Now the next job here is to cut some shallow slots to hold the slides. Holding the part at this stage is a bit of a head-scratcher, but I realized that if I had some blocks to hold it deep between the vise jaws, I'd have enough clearance to run a woodruff cutter across the surfaces.

Some V-blocks help with setup, since what matters is the location of these slots relative to the shaft:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5554/14397364728_f80561485b_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nWffWm)

and now the woodruff cutter takes off 1/32" in three passes to the correct depth:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2909/14397314790_0e06826e94_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nWf16m)

and the slots are done:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3916/14583967625_6640076362_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/odJDtF)

This part is almost complete; it just needs some holes drilled, and a keyway on one end. I haven't done either yet, as I was keen to make a start on the slides.

To be continued...
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on July 06, 2014, 05:30:34 AM
Up next, the bronze slide bars which are a critical part of the Joy's Valve Gear, being curved with a radius identical to the length of the link that connects with the valve rod. While not quite complex enough to keep me awake at night, they are one of those "glad to get them over with" parts :)

With the help of the CAD program, I know what size block I need to enclose the part, and dig out some bronze bar into which I can fit all four blocks but without much room to spare!

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3849/14397345050_502ffe0dfe_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nWfa65)

The outer radius on these blocks is about 4.78", so things are going to be pretty tight on my lathe with 5" clearance  :o

First order of the day is to square up a slice of bronze bar in the bandsaw:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2936/14397396548_babd321647_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nWfqoY)

as usual cleaning up each sawcut on the mill to keep things square. Once down to a rectangular block, I separated the two halves on the bandsaw on the axis where I had a bit more leeway, then used a slitting saw for the last cuts where accuracy was more important:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5494/14583998155_b1d11eeeb7_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/odJNy4)

So here's the starting point:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5481/14580681191_65f55577b5_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/odrNx2)

I could have either made these radius cuts on the rotary table (which a bit of overhang) or on the lathe, and decided on the latter to avoid the need to clean up too many machining marks. I therefore need a fixture to hold the four blocks at the correct radius from center, so cut up some 1/8", 2"-wide brass bar to make a cross shape, soft-soldering it together:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5593/14580682301_ca7c384502_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/odrNSa)

This was marked with the various radii, a locating hole drilled and reamed in the center, and bolt holes on each arm:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2926/14560955986_93213a7530_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/obGGVh)

I was lucky to score a 9" Myford faceplate on eBay just last week just for this purpose  :pinkelephant: The fixture is located on center by indicating on the bit of bar in the center hole. Note how little clearance there is between the fixture and the lathe bed (one of the reaons I made this model at 2/3 scale!):

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3855/14580683701_4565c61527_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/odrPhi)

After tightening things I took a skim at the end of each arm to get a flat surface. I'm going to soft-solder the bits of bronze bar onto each arm, but I need a fairly accurate locating line (there's very little room for waste in those blocks), so it was back to mill with the fixture, to mill off the tip of the radius just turned:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3909/14582189324_ec2a78abed_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/odzwRj)

Then the blocks were soft-soldered onto each arm, making sure they were located against that shoulder just cut, and aligned on center:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5529/14584002895_fe9fb2c764_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/odJPXM)

One seemed to wander a bit, and had to be re-done (it's a good thing I checked before I started turning!).

Now I could start the lathe work. The outside surfaces were skimmed:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5559/14580685731_271fd611d0_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/odrPTi)

and the evenness of the cut on each side of center is a good indicator that things are nicely lined up. This outside face has a flat on it anyway, so I didn't need to go much further than this.

I don't have a 10" micrometer to measure across opposite blocks, so I measured relative to the bit of 1/4" bar in the center of the fixture, and took this outside face down to final position, then used it as a reference for the other surfaces.

With a left-hand cutter I did the inside curve of the blocks, then took a skim across the top, and then started trepanning the slot:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3887/14580686111_9b27b77b5f_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/odrPZR)

going between various cutters to square out the slot:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3860/14582191764_c9f7197830_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/odzxzo)

That went fairly smoothly, but I was getting a bit of singing from this cutter; in hindsight, that 1/8" brass fixture wasn't quite rigid enough. You can see the kind of finish I was getting here, and this required some work with files later to remove:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5479/14397405128_63c46167fa_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nWfsWU)

At this point I was done with the turning, and set up the rotary table, which I could use to trim the ends of one of the slides:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2909/14560960186_30c686900d_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/obGJaG)

and the blocks could then be unsoldered from the fixture. The blocks were taken to final dimensions in the mill. First (no photo I'm afraid) I held the top surface against the fixed jaw in the vice and skimmed the flat on the outer curve, then the slides were clamped with that surface against the fixed jaw to skim off the solder, and take the slide to thickness:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2901/14560964136_857da59e19_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/obGKkN)

For the next few ops I need to hold the slides in pairs, so I whipped up a couple of short lengths of bar which fit snugly in the slots:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5584/14582196764_768186cf4d_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/odzz4A)

and then I can use those to trim the ends of the other three slides using the one slide trimmed on the rotary table as a guide (I would have been too much of a faff to do all 4 on the rotary table).

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3900/14397601257_efcc5398fb_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nWgtfr)

Now was the time to assign the slides to their final locations with number stamps:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5508/14397410138_c31613de37_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nWfurh)

and again holding the slides in pairs, I skimmed down the flat on the curve surface to create matched pairs which fit snugly into the slots in the trunnions:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3886/14397359520_8713ac3035_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nWfeoy)

It's very satisfying when, with just a little bit of filing, the parts all hold together with no fasteners :D

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5475/14397360250_d5caef768f_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nWfeB9)

While I had the rotary table set up I thought I might as well make the slide blocks, which started as a bit of reject 1144SP (a booboo from the curved links earlier) clamped to my handy fixture plate on the rotary table. A few passes with a larger end mill, followed by several 20thou cuts with a 1/8" end mill and we have a curve long enough for all 4 slide blocks:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5158/14580688691_ce1b1d55b5_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/odrQLk)

Yep, looks like we got the radius right:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2921/14397598207_bc39fcc3a3_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nWgskR)

and while on the rotary table with a reference, I drilled/reamed the holes space by angle, and marked off where to separate the blocks.

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3921/14397356400_3d274b5947_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nWfdsL)

Block separation was done by slitting saw:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3861/14583283672_7736c9f804_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/odF9ao)

and after a bit of quality fitting time, we have four slide blocks that are a nice snug fit to the slides:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3913/14397604197_b98f3d56e6_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nWgu88)

I'll ease those in with some TimeSaver compound tomorrow.

Phew, with those out of the way I hope I sleep better tonight!

As always thanks for watching!  :cheers: :cheers:

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: fumopuc on July 06, 2014, 06:13:08 AM
Hi Simon, I like it very much. How does the Americans say, "outstanding".
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Kim on July 06, 2014, 07:21:25 AM
Very nice Simon! Radiused parts like that are very challenging.  You've developed great setups for them and they've turned out beautifully! 
Kim
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Roger B on July 06, 2014, 08:01:32 AM
Some more magnificent work  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:  :cheers:
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: kvom on July 06, 2014, 01:19:16 PM
I reviewed the drawings from Muncaster after reading your posts here.  I was surprised to see that he radiused the sides of the guides.  On the version I'm building, the guides are left square to fit the slots on both sides and the mounting screw holes are centered in both the guides and the frame.  With the original plans the screw holes are located on the centerline of the curved slot, so you'll have to be a little careful in locating them.

Nice job!
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on July 07, 2014, 06:06:54 AM
Thanks for the comments Kvom, Roger, Kim and Achim  :ThumbsUp:

Today was "fit and finish" day on the valve guides. I was slightly worried about the amount of headroom on my mill for drilling the screw holes on each end, but (after cutting down a drill bit) it was fine.

I used my 3" screwless vise on its side, propped up on some 1-2-3 blocks and ground bar to give enough height to hold the part:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5577/14591410224_cab82ee591_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oeoMUm)

and centered on the end shaft. Then it was just a question of moving half the distance one way for each hole. The holes were started with a spotting drill, then drilled through the end web for 7BA clear:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2926/14592624742_259f929bfb_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oev1Wj)

The inside webs were a bit trickier since the drill could wander quite a bit. To help here, I made a drill guide that fit snugly in the slot with holes in the right place (you can just see it near the end of the drill bit here):

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5569/14406877077_4e3fd72f28_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nX61Cn)

My normal stubby drills weren't long enough, but luckily I had a job lot of small aircraft drills including various #40 bits, so I trimmed one of those down with a cut-off disk in the Dremel, and could then use it to reach the inside hole.

The final operation was to countersink the end holes:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2896/14406877837_7c5f206f60_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nX61Rt)

After doing two holes on one end of the part, it was flipped around and repeated the process at the other end.

The next job was to drill and tap the matching holes in the slides. It was a bit of a head-scratcher to decide how to locate the holes; I could have made a punch and marked them through that way, but that would have meant tearing down my trammed vise. So instead I found vertical center on each slide by locating the place where the flat face on the back joined the curve, and splitting the difference. The front-to-back hole locations are a fixed distance from the flat, so that was easy and after positioning the vise with an edge-finder on the fixed jaw, I could leave that setting unchanged for the four parts.

Each was spot-drilled, drilled tapping size, then tapped spinning the spindle by hand.

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3907/14406659770_4b0bb83433_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nX4U2G)

Just a little cleanup was required to file down the raised burrs on the inside of the slides.

At this point I set forth to make some fasteners, but found that my 7BA die didn't want to cut at all :hammerbash: so I gave up and used some old ones I had kicking around from my Stuart Beam restoration a while back, but the hex head screws needed shortening, and the countersunk ones are too short, so these are only temporary. I was pleased to find that the screws fit into their tapped holes in the guides with no binding; it's great with the maths work  :cartwheel:

By then it was dinnertime, and after dinner I had about an hour and a half of filing away machining marks and polishing so you get a beauty shot tonight :D

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5494/14591414154_235dcf9896_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oeoP57)

And roughly in situ:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2900/14592628742_8b50486e2b_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oev38h)

Next will be the "mystery" top link (the one that Muncaster fails to provide a drawing for) which connects the forked links below the conrods to the slide blocks, and then we'll get a bit more of this linkage operational.

Thanks again for watching!

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jo on July 07, 2014, 08:29:59 AM
 8)

All of this is reminding me of what is hidden in my Clayton crankcase. She also has joy valve gear  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: kvom on July 07, 2014, 12:35:55 PM
Looking good.  That's a reminder on mine to check the clearance on the outer sides of the frames to see if I need to countersink the screw holes.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: ths on July 07, 2014, 02:02:24 PM
I have to say something, so something will suffice, as I'm at a loss. Great work? Hugh.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Don1966 on July 08, 2014, 01:14:18 AM
Some very outstanding work going on here. Beautiful work Simon and I am enjoying following your work.


 :popcorn:
Don
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: spuddevans on July 13, 2014, 10:00:54 PM
Beautiful work there Simon, and well done for explaining and showing your setups, very helpful stuff.


Tim
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on July 14, 2014, 06:35:43 AM
Thanks for dropping in Tim, Don, and everyone else who commented.  :cheers:

I've been making the last two parts of the valve linkage over the past week or so, and decided to do them at the same time to reduce the number of setup changes (getting all the rotary table work over in one go). However, I've only managed to get close to done on what I'm calling the "valve rod links", which hook up to the valve rods, so I'll just describe those today. These are a pair of fairly standard rods with a fork one one end. The operations here feel quite familiar, as they are similar to the conrods.

These start as 1144SP offcuts, squared up in the bandsaw as usual:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2928/14669850903_d40189a022_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/omjPzR)

then milled square and marked up:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3926/14649536162_976be5d1cb_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ojwGHG)

Most of that material is destined to become swarf, so we start off by taking the sides down to almost final thickness with a rougher:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5475/14647740084_b8be901928_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ojnuNQ)

followed by a nice sharp cutter. Can't beat that nice side-milled finish  :ThumbsUp:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3864/14649937155_2e428b7842_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ojyKVn)

I left drilling the holes until some material was removed, to ensure the holes were put in after any warpage (none detected though, probably because the material removal was symmetrical). The ends were drilled and reamed 5/32":

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3887/14649538022_91eac6e1d4_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ojwHgL)

and a hole put in to assist with cutting the fork shoulders on the rotary table later:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2910/14463337248_d3f951efb7_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/o35ogA)

Now it's rotary table time! The table is centered on the mill:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3836/14463527727_ef58c5c35b_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/o36mTH)

and the Y axis gibs locked down. For all the remaining operations we just use the X axis (which has a poor man's DRO, zero'd when the rotary table is on center).

The fork ends are rounded off with a decent size end mill:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3857/14463528447_f658d73aa5_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/o36n78)

but taking care not to chew away too much at the end of the travel; I went by eye, using scribed lines for reference. The DRO tells me when I'm close to the final radius, and I can pop a a filing button on the pin to double-check. Here's the result:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3914/14463339008_afa8396b54_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/o35oMW)

The left one looks lopsided, but only because my rough milling earlier wasn't even on both sides.

Next I cut the shoulders on the forked end, locating on the center pin using that hole drilled earlier:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2928/14646698671_f8ffea6c66_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ojhaer)

Need to avoid going too far on both ends of this cut!

The other ends need taking down to width; this is a straight cut, but there's no point breaking down the rotary table setup for it. Just need to take light cuts, since that end is unsupported!

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5567/14626963996_188bcbaa7c_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ohx1Nq)

Now we can shape the small end; we need a bit of a radius where the round end joins the shaft, so we take a trip around the end with a radius end mill at the correct depth, joining up with flat sides.

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5500/14669857623_1c1049560c_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/omjRzH)

One down!

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2911/14463268440_dfb15b3322_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/o352Pf)

Back to the forked ends, and we do something similar to get a bit of a radius:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3842/14626965736_8c394ee36b_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ohx2jq)

then just drop the cutter down and side-mill the full depth, again eating away at the shoulders:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3853/14669859343_8eb8db9a49_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/omjS6n)

I mentioned making 4 parts at the same time; you can see the other two links here:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5512/14646702251_43fbc4a79e_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ojhbia)

which had their rotary table work done in the same (almost 2-day!) session. But now we're done with rotary table work. Next job is to take the link shafts to final depth:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2902/14649545292_702ef92cb5_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ojwKr7)

Before and after:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2928/14626968106_f21ed88ba1_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ohx32h)

and the final op is to open up the forks, first with a 3/16" end mill:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5530/14626969306_143b08a3df_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ohx3nY)

with some to-and-fro to open up the slot to about 20 thou under final width, and then we go in with a 2-flute 1/4" slot mill to take it to final dimensions:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2927/14463534857_a51868042a_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/o36p1D)

(actually slightly under, but that's fine; it leaves some material for cleanup with files).

Here's the result after some very brief cleanup with files:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3913/14646704991_d133e77e55_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ojhc7p)

They'll clean up quite nicely, but I did cut one side of a fork slightly thin :(

Now I have to figure out how to hold those other links to cut some very deep slots  :thinking:

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Kim on July 14, 2014, 03:27:17 PM
Great work on the link rods Simon!  That's a lot of work! And an excellent description.  Makes me want to build something with a forked link like that :)

There sure are a lot of linkages in a Joys Valve engine...
Thanks,
Kim
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on July 21, 2014, 06:28:09 AM
Thanks Kim!

I got far enough today to test out the Joys Valve linkages, and things seem to all move smoothly  :whoohoo:

There are a couple of links here that I'm not happy and will re-make, so you'll see some parts still with blue and red in the photos, but at least they have the correct geometry, which allowed me to put together the entire linkage for the first time.

After making lots of fiddly pins, I had to lap the slides, for which I used the very fine soft-metal TimeSaver, and a bit of rod with the end turned down to 1/8" to fit the slide blocks:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5586/14703377044_f9048ea313_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ophDJL)

The slide blocks are numbered to always go in the same place.

Now we can go for a trial assembly  :cartwheel:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3895/14705482042_8613121c33_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/optrtQ)

You can see those top links that I'm not too happy with. The sides ended up rather thin (0.078") and I'm wondering whether the arch is too high

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3902/14705482472_c67f96e71e_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/optrBf)

The valve guide supports aren't fastened down yet, and the rust fairy seems to have been for a visit  :toilet_claw:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2936/14519113238_9182b8e960_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/o81fwA)

And here's a video of me turning over the video by hand:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eggC6RkGvWI

Thanks for watching  :cheers:
Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: fumopuc on July 21, 2014, 06:55:21 PM
Hi Simon, I am still there and watching. Good step forwards. Enjoying the motion.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: tangler on July 21, 2014, 07:02:27 PM
Fascinating  :popcorn:

Rod
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: vcutajar on July 21, 2014, 09:02:53 PM
Bravo Simon.  This is going to be a beauty when finished.

Vince
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: NickG on July 22, 2014, 07:57:19 PM
Fantastic workmanship Simon and interesting motion.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Roger B on July 22, 2014, 08:05:22 PM
Looking good  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp: I enjoy watching steam engine valve gear although I don't fully understand it  ::)
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Johnmcc69 on July 22, 2014, 08:52:12 PM
Wow Simon! Excellent! Beautiful motion. I can't wait to see this finished & hear it run.

 John
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Don1966 on July 22, 2014, 10:45:36 PM
 8)

 :popcorn:

Don
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on July 28, 2014, 04:25:51 AM
Thanks for the interest and comments, folks  :cheers:

It really feels like I'm on the home stretch now; the only significant part left is the flywheel, and for that I either need to find a 6" casting (anyone got one maturing under the bench? ;) ) or build one up.

But first I need to get the valve rods etc built up. The first order of business there is to prepare the steam chest for the valve rod glands and guides.

I'd marked it up earlier, but wanted to check the locations with everything put together. So I assembled the cylinder block after going one-drill-bigger on a few of the holes, and, this time, marked the orientation of all the parts. Then I was ready to mark out the valve rod locations, and the steam input hole, remembering to put in some bits of gasket to get the spacing right:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3911/14758815111_63e6c07a61_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oubMxv)

I was pleased to find that the marked locations fell within the punch marks from earlier :cartwheel:

The part was clamped against an angle plate with a parallel underneath, and I started by drilling for the steam input:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5580/14738991956_5647ffe2bb_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/osrbNY)

followed by a 5/16" 26TPI tap (I'm still fresh to this threading game, but 26TPI seems to be commonly used for steam connections).

Next were the threaded holes for the two valve guides on the back side. These were drilled just below tapping size, then opened up with a drill that has been ground down into a single-point cutter, so this was effectively boring the hole to ensure straightness:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3918/14575302860_78cebdbe9e_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ocYeKb)

Those were then threaded 1/4" 32TPI, to take the brass valve rod guides that I'll make later.

Then the part was flipped over without changing the Y axis, and one of the valve rod gland locations found. I think this is more accurate than trying to drill the second side without flipping the part over; there's too much chance of the drill wandering on the inside.

These holes for the valve rod glands were drilled to just under the valve guide diameter (5/32"), then opened up part way through to just under 3/8" by drilling, then the last few thou taken off by boring to ensure straightness:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3870/14781873063_f0d57e8947_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/owdXSp)

I was a little concerned here because I've found some chilled spots in this cast iron stock, and I was worried that I would hit one with these holes. Luckily that didn't happen!

The remaining small diameter hole was reamed last to take off any burrs (unlikely with cast iron though).

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3887/14762006805_789ee1ed1d_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/out9jH)

Finally a touch of the countersink eased the edge:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3852/14758830221_22e7aeee68_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oubS32)

While still set up, I drilled and tapped the holes for the valve gland studs. Those are 7BA, which is getting down there in size but this went uneventfully:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3887/14575554777_b76f84f02b_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ocZwCz)

So here's where we're at:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2904/14575555517_477a079074_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ocZwRk)

You can see that chilled spot very obviously in this photo.

Next up will be the glands and valve rod guides.

Thanks again for watching!  :cheers:

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: tvoght on July 28, 2014, 10:51:53 PM
Great work as usual. You're probably already aware, but I'll toss this possible source of flywheel castings out there just in case.

http://www.martinmodel.com/MMPflywheelslist.html

--Tim
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on July 29, 2014, 01:38:16 AM
Simon, I can't add much to what's already been said as far as the quality of work. I do, however, want to tell you that I really look forward to the weekend update when I awake on Monday morning (my day off). Just the way you go about everything and the results achieved are really inspiring. Happy modeling.

Whiskey
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on August 04, 2014, 06:58:43 AM
Thanks Eric and Tim! I've been quite busy of late, but have been remiss in posting progress, so I owe you folks a post or two!

Next on the menu are two valve rod glands, of bronze. These started out as a slice of 1-1/4" bar, marked up and ready to go:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2926/14822370494_c09f9b4f88_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ozNwkY)

I didn't have the heart to turn away a lot of bronze doing each one on the axis of the bar, so fitted them in back-to-back on a short cutoff. Let's hope I don't regret making things hard for myself!

The bandsaw takes of the bigger chunks:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3897/14821645601_cf1a2cb817_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ozJNRP)

then it's into the 4-jaw to turn the first end:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3872/14844576303_491ac1cbd3_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oBLkmK)

and the hole was then drilled and bored to ensure concentricity (only going half-way through the part):

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3910/14844576833_a0bb4c0c41_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oBLkvT)

then reamed for size:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2932/14638104018_e7e213b464_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oiw7kL)

First side done:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3923/14638196297_7127d58ec3_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oiwzLM)

I thought I was being smart, holding the turned side in a collet to do the second side, but that turned out bad for two reasons: first, the collet crushed the bore slightly, and second, since the part was only being held in the front of the collet, turning forces caused the part to creep out of the collet and come loose.

So that was abandoned, and the part went back in the 4-jaw for the other side  :embarassed:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2934/14821648601_94a14ed7e3_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ozJPKx)

With both sides turned, I separated them on the bandsaw.

I did, however, go back to the collet to turn the front surface, but took two precautions this time: first, a bit of rod in the bore of the gland to avoid crushing, and second, a 3/8" drill bit in the back side of the collet to even out the clamping forces. No problems this time!

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3894/14638035130_56070dbc9c_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oivKS3)

I haven't yet drilled for the studs or done the final shaping; those will be done next time I have the rotary table set up.

A trial fit in the valve chest showed that I had a bit of binding where the valve rod passes through the hole behind the gland, so I set up the valve chest again to ease that hole slightly. I indicated on the gland in situ:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5579/14822379594_14b883c3ca_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ozNz3S)

then used a tiny boring head to just skim the tight side of the hole until a 5/32" rod passed smoothly through the gland into the steam chest:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3903/14844585573_678bda09cc_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oBLo7z)

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on August 04, 2014, 07:08:27 AM
On the back side of the valve chest are two screw-in valve rod guides, of brass. They started as a bit of 1/2" brass rod, with one end turned 5/16" leaving a bit of a radius:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5581/14801734916_8332823680_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oxYL79)

The ball turner had a rare excursion to round the ends:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3875/14801735396_214e8c200b_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oxYLfq)

and then they were flipped around in the collet (taking similar precautions as before; a bit of 5/16" bar in the back side of the collet to provide even clamping forces). On this end, we are turning to 1/4" in preparation for threading:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5588/14824375582_7d2362465e_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ozYNos)

I still haven't tried single-point threading :embarassed: so out came the 1/4"-32TPI die in the tailstock die holder:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3844/14638108348_0475a6eb03_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oiw8Cq)

The only annoying thing about using the die is you can't get up to a shoulder, so and a fair amount of clearance has to be cut to get back to full-depth threads.

In this same setup the bore is started with a center drill:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2898/14638200057_793bb87ff3_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oiwATB)

then drilled and reamed (I can't bore a 1/8" hole, otherwise I would have :))

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3885/14824377362_9b13ae87b3_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ozYNV9)

Two done:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2899/14822378374_0d8b04f494_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ozNyFQ)

and the final operation is cutting a hex using a collet block. I cut the hex to fit a 0BA spanner, but I think that left it a little small.  :shrug:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5566/14822379054_9a46cfae36_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ozNyTy)

A bit of adjustment of the thread and the shoulder clearance was needed to get these to screw fully into the threaded holes in the valve chest; this was one of the rare times I used the adjustment screws on the die holder.

And they are done:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3841/14821655611_6edbb39fae_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ozJRQp)

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: fumopuc on August 04, 2014, 09:33:22 AM
Hi Simon, as usual, it is fascinating to follow your build log.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: kvom on August 04, 2014, 01:20:25 PM
Dennis' version of the valve guide uses a lozenge shape with two screws like the packing gland, and specifies bronze.  Can't decide which I like better.   :shrug:

I've always wondered why this type of guide is needed.    :headscratch: In principle steam pressure will keep the valve itself against the ports, and the gland will keep the valve rod straight.  I didn't need a long valve rod and guide for my loco build.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on August 04, 2014, 04:34:11 PM
Dennis' version of the valve guide uses a lozenge shape with two screws like the packing gland, and specifies bronze.  Can't decide which I like better.   :shrug:
Interesting, mine is more faithful to the plans. Perhaps Dennis was trying to match the glands for appearance?

I've always wondered why this type of guide is needed.    :headscratch: In principle steam pressure will keep the valve itself against the ports, and the gland will keep the valve rod straight.  I didn't need a long valve rod and guide for my loco build.

There is a little sideways force on the valve rods, and I guess you'd want to avoid wearing the gland holes into ovals.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on August 05, 2014, 05:51:40 AM
I'm playing catch-up with the posting, so onto another part! The valve rods are the last part of the valve linkage that needs doing. I used 5/32" precision ground stainless, but the rods have a ring on the end that needs to be machined, so I had to silver-solder on some lumps of 1144SP.

A small step was turned on the ends of the rods to fit into a short 1/8" hole in the blocks, and they were fluxed and set up with a solder ring (56% silver) and a few small bits of solder at the bottom of the holes.

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2918/14824772185_909e092784_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oA1Qhr)

In hindsight, this wasn't the best setup; the boiling flux pushed the rods out of the holes, and they had to be pushed down. A small cross hole would have been a good idea (but would have required boring, rather than drilling the cross hole later).

But with some twisting of the rods while the solder was liquid (which was necessary to wet the stainless) I got two mostly good joints:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5565/14844609513_81919413e0_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oBLvek)

After cleaning off the flux, these went into a square collet block to square up the end lump relative to the rod with some gentle cuts:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2922/14821679161_7cb9be4a36_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ozJYQr)

leaving me with this:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2931/14821679731_8cb302a0b8_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ozJZ1g)

Now I could hold the blocks in the vise to drill the cross hole:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3921/14638116279_9a303f7555_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oiwaZa)

However, when drilling I could feel the drill wandering, because of the inside hole and the harder silver-solder, so the hole was opened out to reaming size with the tiny boring bar:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3837/14844611983_0455511f15_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oBLvXV)

then reamed.

Now I can flip the part around to hold in a collet to turn the outer end down to 1/8" with a center:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2916/14822408864_3ba6bf31b4_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ozNHKw)

before threading the central section 3BA:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3859/14822409434_5c74d428b3_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ozNHVm)

Even though the core diameter of 3BA is a hair over 1/8", the die marked up the 1/8" section which was somewhat annoying, so that had to be smoothed out again. Yet another reason why I should learn to do single-point threading!  :embarassed:

One thing I've found with this 5/32" SS rod is that, despite being "precision ground", it's actually about a thou oversize (I suspect so they can also sell it as 4mm) so I had to take it down with emery paper to fit the glands:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3864/14638139978_86684dcc63_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oiwi2L)

A fit in the steam chest shows that the threads overlap the valve locations correctly  :pinkelephant:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5578/14844613503_3523e61d27_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oBLwq8)

The final operations were rounding the ends on the rotary table:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2904/14638122049_f0d3c11dff_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oiwcGD)

with the radius end mill just skimming the rod for the join radius:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2931/14638070710_a4cf0e9a01_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oivWru)

and a bit of filing blended the radii quite nicely:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3856/14638121479_10f89bafec_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oiwcwP)

With both done, it's time for a trial assembly  :cartwheel: I've amassed quite a collection of parts!

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3903/14638122689_2f78148a3a_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oiwcTF)

The crossheads needed a bit of a skim off the bottom to match the piston rod locations after bolting down the cylinder block, and to compute how much, I measure the distance between the top of the piston rod and the top of the crosshead when screwed in:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5557/14822413464_09d96b79cf_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ozNK7Q)

and the same distance after assembly (but not screwed together) with the crosshead in the crosshead slides. This told me I had to skim about 2 thou off one, and 8 thou of the other:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3838/14638073410_d31c39ec8e_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oivXf3)

After a bit more fitting work everything goes together (with temporary pins!) and it's starting to look like Muncaster's Joy's Valve Gear Engine! :whoohoo:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2937/14638146158_fccd30e5df_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oiwjSj)

It's a little stiff at one point in the cycle, so I need to figure out where that's coming from. Next will be valves, and the final parts are the flywheel of course, and the handle that controls the valve timing.

Thanks again for following along on this adventure!

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jo on August 05, 2014, 05:57:02 AM
It is coming together nicely Simon 8)

An alternative idea with those rods popping out during silver soldering is to use a needle file to cut a little short groove down the side of the rod.

Jo
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Kim on August 05, 2014, 06:38:43 AM
A few more parts, amazingly well done Simon!
Your going to have this engine running soon! :)
Kim
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: fumopuc on August 05, 2014, 06:34:08 PM
Yes  Simon, I like it.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: gbritnell on August 05, 2014, 06:38:16 PM
Your usual fine (very fine) work Simon. I can't wait to see the finished engine.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on August 06, 2014, 01:43:48 AM
Lots of very nice parts there Simon!

Yes, it it is going to be fun to see this one in operation.

Dave
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Don1966 on August 06, 2014, 02:02:06 AM
Very nice work Simon and I thoroughly enjoy following along on your built. Those linkage are just to cool and the write up is awesome. I like...................... :praise2:

Don
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Bearcar1 on August 06, 2014, 02:29:52 AM
Whewee! NICE job Simon! Thanks for the updates and pictures. Sure is a fine looking beast.




BC1
Jim
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Hugh Currin on August 06, 2014, 05:46:56 AM
Simon:

Very nice parts. Your work is meticulous and inspiring. Thank you for posting the build and in the detail you've included.

I'm curious though. Back when you built the conrods you started with round stock and used a bandsaw to get rectangular parts. I remember this because I thought if I tried this my saw would wander enough to ruin the parts. But on these valve rods you silver soldered square stock to the stainless rods, and then made them round using a rotary table. I thought you could have made the round end and silver soldered it to the ground rod.

(http://www.currin.us/MEM/Simon.jpg)

Are these choices due to stock on hand or is there more to it?

Again, thanks for posting the build. It's coming together very well.

Hugh
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: arnoldb on August 06, 2014, 07:03:48 PM
VERY nice work Simon  :praise2:

I agree with Jo about a file mark or two.  I've also had good results with similar jobs by turning the end that must go into the hole a couple of thou under size, and then knurling it to make it fit fairly tight in the hole.  The knurls provide ventilation, as well as excellent penetration.

Kind regards, Arnold
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on August 06, 2014, 11:03:46 PM
Simon:

Very nice parts. Your work is meticulous and inspiring. Thank you for posting the build and in the detail you've included.

I'm curious though. Back when you built the conrods you started with round stock and used a bandsaw to get rectangular parts. I remember this because I thought if I tried this my saw would wander enough to ruin the parts. But on these valve rods you silver soldered square stock to the stainless rods, and then made them round using a rotary table. I thought you could have made the round end and silver soldered it to the ground rod.

Are these choices due to stock on hand or is there more to it?

Hi Hugh, thanks for the nice comments!

The reason I didn't make the ring first and just solder it on is that I wasn't able to guarantee accuracy that way. For me at least, things always move around during silver soldering, especially since you need a solder gap, so I tend to view silver soldering as a way to build up a bigger lump of metal that will be machined as one piece later.

Of course there are alternatives, building jigs etc to keep things aligned, but then you risk the solder sticking to the jig. At least for this case, my way seemed to turn out OK :)

Simon

Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Hugh Currin on August 07, 2014, 04:00:27 PM
Simon:

Thanks. There are always many directions, and most of them can work. I was thinking to assemble as above then finish only the faces and bore after putting them together. I suppose my inclination is to avoid rotary table work when I can.

At least for this case, my way seemed to turn out OK :)

Now that's an understatement. It worked extraordinarily well.

Hugh
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Roger B on August 07, 2014, 07:17:06 PM
Coming along very nicely  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp: Not long to the video and maybe the happy dance  :)
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 07, 2014, 10:51:55 PM
and it's starting to look like Muncaster's Joy's Valve Gear Engine!

And an excellent one at that.
Always a pleasure to read your threads.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on August 11, 2014, 06:36:02 AM
Thanks everyone for reading and commenting  :cheers:

The last bit of the valve train that remains is the valves themselves. Details are a bit scant on the plans, and the articles don't even give the critical dimensions of the valves, but by measuring from the plans and doing a simulation, I have a fair idea. The actual shape of the valves themselves isn't really critical, but I've tried to retain some of the character of the valves in the plans.

A bit of bronze was turned and faced to give us some square faces to start with:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5551/14903181533_cf32bd2f49_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oGWGDK)

and taken to thickness holding with a V-block in the vise:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5584/14696705638_2af0f0d62e_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ooGsyw)

I then milled down two opposite sides so they they were parallel, and marked it up. Here I'm using the optical center punch that I like:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3836/14882977642_204d0b2d1d_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oFa9JN)

I marked up the two valves face-to-face, leaving a gap between for separating on the bandsaw:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5573/14883305515_7578354614_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oFbQcM)

and then the sawn faces were milled flat; these will be the contact faces, so need to be good!

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3906/14860324366_1160c02825_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oDa3H5)

Now we can put the bottom faces against the fixed jaw to drill the hole for the valve rod:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5572/14903184473_ccfee5e576_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oGWHwr)

This hole was elongated with an end mill

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5562/14882979892_e269a6c7a3_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oFaapA)

The idea here is that there'll be a stainless steel sleeve over the valve rod, which the locating nuts bear upon, and the elongated hole here allows for the valve to move vertically on the sleeve to provide the necessary valve float.

I then marked out for the critical valve cavity:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3922/14880858784_71441b8b63_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oEYhSL)

I always have to remember that not only is the size of this cavity critical, but also where it lies in relation to the leading and trailing edge of the valve!

The bulk of the material was removed with a 5/16" slot drill:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3910/14696671629_5281cf76bd_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ooGhsa)

and then I used a 1/8" ball-end mill to do some sculpting on the inside to increase the cavity volume, and do a final accurate pass around the perimeter. You can't see in the photo, but I have indicators on both axes so I know where I am:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5554/14882982132_a9fc12f368_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oFab5d)

Both done. I'll give these a bit of a file to make them look better (not that anyone will ever seen the inside of the valves  :paranoia:)

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3887/14860328266_f024ee2128_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oDa4Sj)

Now for some cleanup on the outside. First the sides were taken down with a corner-radius mill:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5561/14696712208_058e8972be_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ooGuvN)

and a few passes with a larger mill remove much of the excess material:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3878/14903188903_4e20b9a7c9_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oGWJQP)

Then the comers are taken off with a corner-rounding cutter:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5556/14882984402_3eede4fa3c_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oFabKm)

and finally the top is rounded with the 1/8" ball-end mill, using a step-off chart generated from the CAD drawing. The corner-rounding mill wouldn't work for this profile unless I ground quite a bit off the end.

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3857/14860330546_2340367b97_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oDa5xC)

I just wanted to show how I locate parts in the vise; this is a 1/2" edge finder with a 0.200" end, which I find quite accurate (to 0.0005") when run at 1000RPM.

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3848/14903190853_c80c12c0a1_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oGWKqr)

Here's what they look like before and after a bit of smoothing with files and emery paper:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5569/14903191403_8502fc0391_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oGWKzV)

They look like little houses  ;D

There was one more step that I forgot to photo, which was using the corner-rounding end mill to take 1/8" off the upper part of each end to leave a landing for the adjustment nuts.

So that's the valves.

I must admit, at this point, to putting everything together, applying a bit of air and seeing if everthing moved in the right direction as the crank was turned over. It did  :whoohoo:

Simon

Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on August 11, 2014, 06:58:37 AM
My search for a 6" cast iron flywheel hasn't yet yielded anything, but PM Research do have a 7" casting so I thought I'd get hold of one just so I have something to run this engine with temporarily  :stir:

It came on Friday, so most of today was spent tidying it up (not to any specific dimensions at this point):

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3870/14880385361_35b83c2047_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oEVS9i)

I had to take the bore up to 5/8", so decided this would be a good time to apply Simon's alternate keyway method, which involved turning down a bit of nasty steel to 5/8", using a keyway cutter to cut a slot and drilling a rough hole down the middle:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5572/14883422225_44d853b823_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oFcqU2)

That was then Loctited in place and left to cure over supper.

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3910/14696756720_9369ffa485_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ooGHKf)

the bored out to just under 1/2":

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3870/14880975894_fd0d585cf9_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oEYTFU)

and reamed (note the spiral reamer; a straight rearmer would not be good with the keyway there):

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5567/14903301783_daf5b78ed2_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oGXjp2)

A matching keyway was cut in the crankshaft using a keyway (Woodruff) cutter:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5555/14696755180_629a00ce98_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ooGHhG)

and the flywheel was fitted temporarily with a bit of 1/8" key stock.

This always seems to happen late on a Sunday evening, but now we're in a state where we can actually see if this thing will run on air  :pinkelephant:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5579/14696902700_ee822c83b6_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ooHt99)

So with no gaskets, no gland packing, loose glands, and lots of fitting and adjustment still to be done, she runs (sort of!)  :whoohoo:

fjLdLR-_7EI
Thanks again for watching!  :cheers:

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Kim on August 11, 2014, 07:07:59 AM
Wow Simon!  That cool!
I was just  starting to respond to your previous post on the valves, saying i couldn't wait to see it run, when I was notified that a new message had come in while I was replying.  And it was your video!  Like you can read my mind or something :)

Great work on the valves! (from my original post).

Thanks for posting the video!  You must be about done now!!
Kim
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jo on August 11, 2014, 08:00:28 AM
 8)  Nice.

Jo
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Roger B on August 11, 2014, 08:07:18 AM
Excellent  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Maryak on August 11, 2014, 09:07:15 AM
Beautiful work and excellent result Simon  :NotWorthy:

Best Regards
Bob
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: fumopuc on August 11, 2014, 09:23:49 AM
WOW Simon, that is great. I like it.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Chipmaster on August 11, 2014, 09:35:06 AM
Impressive - running so smoothly at that stage.
Andy
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: gbritnell on August 11, 2014, 01:01:31 PM
Hi Simon,
What a gorgeous engine!
gbritnell
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: sco on August 11, 2014, 01:19:34 PM
Hey Simon that looks fantastic!

Nice job and thanks for sharing,

Simon.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on August 11, 2014, 01:25:05 PM
Beautiful work Simon.


Dave
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: ShopShoe on August 11, 2014, 02:02:23 PM
That's beautiful. Nice slow running at this stage. I like the size of the thing.

--ShopShoe
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Don1966 on August 11, 2014, 06:11:29 PM
Simon I think everyone has said it all. Just awesome bud and I like............... :praise2:


Don
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: arnoldb on August 11, 2014, 08:01:59 PM
Very well done and shown indeed Simon  :praise2:

I like your alternative way of forming a keyway  :ThumbsUp:

She'll be a real beaut once completed!

Kind regards, Arnold
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: NickG on August 11, 2014, 09:15:15 PM
That's Majestic, well done Simon you must be chuffed.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: vcutajar on August 12, 2014, 05:29:03 AM
Excellent work Simon.  You must be pretty happy with yourself seeing coming to life.

Vince
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on August 12, 2014, 05:42:30 AM
Thank you all for your comments! I am quite chuffed to get it to this point. I'll be even more chuffed when I have it ticking over slowly without having to hold onto anything or hear any bad noises  ;D

I do have to reposition a hole in the base, so they will be some more base hacking and JB-Weld in the not-too-distant future. I also have to decide what to do about the slides and oil wells, given the interference found earlier  :thinking:

So the adventure will continue for a while yet!

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on August 14, 2014, 06:53:32 AM
Thanks for all the encouraging comments, everyone!  :cheers:

To tie up the loose ends on the valves we need a couple of SS sleeves, which were a simple turning and drilling job:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3879/14726819269_75790e2cfa_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ormNi4)

and then I needed 4 SS washers which are a breeze to make:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5552/14890486666_52196c6e95_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oFPCUJ)

Just one tip here; after starting the parting off groove, I back off and ease the newly cut edges with a small file, then continue to part off.

The valves ends needed a bit of relief cut for the washers and nuts:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3839/14890487246_c39ee181ab_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oFPD5J)

and here are the resulting bits:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3871/14726867538_13fca8aa0e_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/orn3Dh)

The length of the sleeves has been adjusted to be just a hair longer than the body of the valve, so that the valves move with the valve rod, but have some up and down float.

Simon


Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on August 18, 2014, 04:37:55 AM
After three days in the shop over a long weekend I accomplished a few more bits and pieces.

Those poor square valve rod glands needed drilling for studs:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5587/14767457238_6bc6ccfa80_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ouX5xG)

and shaping with some hardened filing buttons (note how the central button needed some bites taken out to make space for the smaller buttons)

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3891/14931081516_c266eb6e55_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oKpGkW)

I also received a shipment from Chronos which included some nice HSS BA dies. The 7BA die cut the threads on these 303 stainless studs like a dream, so much better than the Tap & Die HQS dies I was using before.  :cartwheel:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5595/14767406100_2e5d57419c_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ouWPm1)

The 4BA die even allowed me to make some stubby studs for the piston rod glands:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3856/14951002281_9d258afb99_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oMaN6p)

and cut well enough that I could hold the stud in a collet, without having to resort to the stud holder!  :pinkelephant:

Another easy job was to cut some gaskets. I have some "oakenstrong" paper that came from Stuart Models from an earlier build, and I like to clamp the part down over it on the bench, then cut around the edges with a sharp craft knife.

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5575/14767404740_bfe50905cd_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ouWNWy)

The holes are cut using some home-made punches, turned from O-1, shallow-drilled in the end and then brought to a sharp edge with a countersink:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5565/14950965331_22cc9f6c66_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oMaB7k)

This was then hardened and tempered. It cuts clean holes in the gasket material with the tap of a hammer.

Simon

Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on August 18, 2014, 05:04:22 AM
Now we have some parts to make for the valve control handle. This attaches to the side of the engine, and turning the shaft via a hand wheel at the top raises or lowers the end of a connecting link which is fixed via a key to the curved guides assembly made earlier. So I made the easy parts first  :D

These consist of the main shaft of this control assembly. This started as a length of 1/4" 303 SS. The top 1-3/4" were turned down and threaded 3/16"-32TPI using a die (I chose a coarser thread than the appropriate BA size, since a finer thread would make going between forward and reverse too laborious).

The central section is turned down with decorative radii on each end:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3873/14951000561_947d0bd6b1_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oMaMzK)

and the bottom end needs a section turned down to 3/16", then some threading for a 4BA nut:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3905/14953769702_5536360079_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oMpYKy)

Now we need to make a couple of right-angle linkage doodads, which I chose to do by silver-soldering. I turned down a couple of bits of 3/8" rod to give a 11/32" section (the final diameter of the parts here) but leaving enough to grip in a collet. Then the cross-pieces, some short sections of 11/32", need a side bored out to fit at right angles. I started with an end mill:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3912/14953771482_8176f8a925_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oMpZhf)

then bored to size with the small boring head:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5577/14953772342_023c98666a_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oMpZx5)

since I don't have an 11/32" end mill :shrug:

This probably makes more sense once you see the pieces:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3892/14767559957_14e92f7604_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ouXB5H)

You can see that I've made some punch marks to leave room for solder flow, and hammered out some bits of 56% silver solder to put between the parts.

Here we're set up for soldering:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3899/14954119985_91c7713468_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oMrLSV)

I did a couple of things to help keep the parts in place. First, I gouged a depression in the refractory brick to prevent the part from rolling around, and second I made one of those "one-legged bird" props that you all started  ;D to use to weigh things down (it's the bit of wire on top of the part).

I was quite pleased with the result; the metal here is 303 stainless, so I was a bit worried about the solder not wetting, but it worked well and I got a nice fillet:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5563/14931120406_3eda45eae1_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oKpTUs)

One part didn't get a full fillet:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3887/14767444190_8deae357df_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ouX1EJ)

but after finish machining it's hardly noticeable.

These could then be set up in the square collet block, dialing in around the circumference of the vertical part:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5592/14953777302_33f35ac8c7_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oMq21A)

and now we can drill and ream the cross holes knowing that they are perpendicular to the main axis:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5566/14767445850_d4d01ec21e_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ouX2am)

I did some passes with an end mill to take the vertical section to length too. That leaves us with:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3862/14767446920_d91a76006e_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ouX2tN)

Back in the lathe I can now take the ends down to size:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3879/14767566797_cf3519e12a_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ouXD7D)

and finally the part is parted off:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3862/14954127125_542fc924ea_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oMrP12)

Here they are with the control shaft:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3873/14954128175_9a3c4723f5_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oMrPj8)

and here's where it goes on the engine:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5588/14767450860_82102086fc_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ouX3DJ)

Now that hole in the base with the drill bit sticking out is actually in the wrong place  :facepalm: Muncaster's plans are a bit contradictory on the placement of this hole, and back when I made the base I either took the wrong dimensions, or just had a brain-fart and marked it out incorrectly. I need to move it, so I'll be milling off that boss and J-B Welding another one in place at some point.

Thanks again for following along  :cheers:
Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: fumopuc on August 18, 2014, 05:56:04 AM
Hi Simon, it is coming together now. I am always following along. Thanks for sharing all these details of your build with us.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jo on August 18, 2014, 05:59:04 AM
Those came out well  :ThumbsUp:

Jo
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: vcutajar on August 18, 2014, 07:27:43 AM
The way you fabricate things is awesome Simon.  I always learn new things with your descriptions and photos.  Thanks

Vince
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Don1966 on August 18, 2014, 02:17:58 PM
Nice bit of fabrication Simon that came out real nice. Still following your beautiful project bud.


 :popcorn:

Don
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Kim on August 18, 2014, 03:37:29 PM
I'll have to agree Simon, beautifully done!  That's a lot of work for a couple of little parts!
Very nice!  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:

Kim
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Roger B on August 18, 2014, 06:15:56 PM
Magnificent work as ever  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:

Is the pivot for the control rod really wrong? Does it fit if you turn the right angle doodads the other way round?
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: doubletop on August 18, 2014, 09:14:57 PM
Magnificent work as ever  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:

Is the pivot for the control rod really wrong? Does it fit if you turn the right angle doodads the other way round?

Roger - my immediate thought as well

Pete
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on August 18, 2014, 10:39:31 PM
Magnificent work as ever  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:

Is the pivot for the control rod really wrong? Does it fit if you turn the right angle doodads the other way round?

Roger - my immediate thought as well

Pete

Thanks for the comments, folks!

The pivot is actually the wrong way round in the photos (I was just balancing the rod there), but turned around it's still wrong, as my CAD model shows. As designed, the control shaft is perfectly vertical when the engine is fully in forward or reverse.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on August 24, 2014, 05:24:25 AM
Onto the final moving part! This is the "valve control" link that goes between the handle and is keyed to the valve yokes assembly.

We start with an offcut of 1144SP, milled to size and marked up:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3894/14828594638_b1ddba8b6d_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oAmqyN)

and the first thing I did was to drill and ream the holes:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5583/14828491899_b78b305f24_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oAkU2r)

There's another sacrificial hole at right angles to those two holes, which will be used to center the part on the rotary table for turning the outside arc of the yoke.

While the part is still easily held in the vise, I milled out the yoke:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5584/14828492709_07bf00b813_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oAkUgp)

but left a bit of material on the bottom to leave that third hole. Now the sides are thinned down:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5554/15015219335_289e9652d2_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oSQVzZ)

and we're left with this:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3886/15015219905_0b2986ee59_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oSQVKP)

At this point we're in with a session on the rotary table. The first thing I did was to mill the outside arcs of the yoke (no photo, sorry). Now I need to mark up the taper, so I know how far to wind when rounding the ends on the rotary table. Some shims under one end give the required taper:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3836/15012138381_24dd38abfb_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oSz8J6)

and then we can round off the big end:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3870/14828693467_cbfe745424_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oAmVWK)

That 3/16" end mill was too long for this job; I was getting some singing and poor finish, especially near the tip, but I didn't have another end mill with enough length of cut.

One end done:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3856/14828575350_5eaa4fbff5_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oAmjQf)

Now we can round the other, yoke end, milling away that connecting part in the process:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3854/14828694947_07ca24370a_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oAmWog)

which gives us this:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3872/14828576810_86fc8079c5_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oAmkgq)

While the part still has some straight edges and can be held in a vise, it's a good time to cut the keyway. I found this nice broach set on eBay, which was sold as used but the broaches still have the protective wax, and are sharp  :cartwheel:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5582/15014855782_656487cc0e_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oSP4vQ)

and I bought a corresponding 3/32" woodruff cutter.

After making sure the broach is lined up with the part, the keyway was cut with one pass of the tool:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5591/15015225465_73e40128ea_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oSQXpF)

This needed quite a bit of pressure, and I had to ease the broach back a couple of times before it would start cutting with another tooth, but it wasn't too hairy. To press the broach I used a lever press that I got locally (some kind of tech lab castoff). It doesn't generate as much force as an arbor press, but worked fine for this job.

The final step was to clamp the part with some dowel and a drill bit to give the correct taper, and mill away the excess, using an end mill with a corner radius:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5573/15015226155_9ef34b4a50_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oSQXBz)

The valve yokes assembly needs a keyway cut in the shaft, so that was set up in the vise, making sure I had support behind the skinny shaft:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5584/14828697697_a75e2473d4_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oAmXcF)

I touched the cutter off the top of the shaft using the "cigarette paper" method (actually some crinkly cracker wrapper which is about 1 thou thick), moved the cutter down by half of (shaft diameter + cutter thickness), and cut in several passes taking about 8 thou per pass. I worked out how deep to cut the keyway by putting a bit of key stock in the matching part, and using drill bits of various sizes to see how far the key projected into the bore.

A trial fit looks promising, with everything snug:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5574/15015227885_1885b5c77b_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oSQY8p)

and finally a trial assembly:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5561/14828699517_b70f182216_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oAmXK4)

Seeing how this goes together it's obvious that I have to move the boss that the control handle attaches to, so I have various operations to do on the base next!

Thanks again for following along, and for the comments!

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Kim on August 24, 2014, 06:38:58 AM
Beautiful work on that valve control link Simon!  And as usual, an excellent and instructive post.
Thanks for sharing!
Kim
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jo on August 24, 2014, 08:22:39 AM
So if that was the final "moving" part how much more is there to go Simon?

Jo
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on August 24, 2014, 05:35:49 PM
So if that was the final "moving" part how much more is there to go Simon?

Thanks for checking in, Jo!

Let's see! The oil wells around the slides (I have a plan for that). Bearing caps, finish the main bearings. Exhaust piping and exit hole through the base. Move that control handle anchor point. Flywheel (either fabricate or find a 6" casting), and maybe a pulley on the other side. Lots of studs. Try to find a way to put in drain cocks, and a lever mechanism for those. And of course lots of finishing, paint and base.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on August 25, 2014, 06:26:09 AM
I couldn't resist having a bit of a play today before I strip it down to work on the base:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfMuo1V9m9k

Sorry about the compressor noise  :-[  This engine uses enough air to keep my little airbrush compressor running full time.

There's a bit of clunking. I think one cause is the flywheel being a bit loose, so I'll bash the key a few times with a hammer to widen it out and try again.

Thanks for watching!

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jo on August 25, 2014, 07:11:36 AM
 :headscratch: So how big is the flywheel you have on there at the moment? Any plans for what type you are going to fit?

Jo
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on August 25, 2014, 07:15:20 AM
:headscratch: So how big is the flywheel you have on there at the moment? Any plans for what type you are going to fit?

That one is about 6-3/4" in diameter. I just ordered some bits of tubing to fabricate one of a more appropriate size :naughty:

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: ths on August 25, 2014, 07:32:28 AM
Simon, that's glorious. Hugh.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: vcutajar on August 25, 2014, 07:34:20 AM
That is really looking good Simon.

Vince
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Stilldrillin on August 25, 2014, 09:06:29 AM
Almost, poetry, Simon!    (http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Respect/respect-061.gif)

David D
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Kim on August 25, 2014, 03:50:43 PM
That's beautiful Simon!  I couldn't watch the video on my tablet so I didn't see it till this morning, but that's just fabulous!  :Love: I finally get how that reversing gizmo works now, and that is really slick!  Seeing it in action is just amazing.

Thanks for posting the video!
Kim
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: fumopuc on August 25, 2014, 07:27:30 PM
Hi Simon, good to see the baby is alive. Nice movement of all these links and rods. A perfect job has been made there. Now we will wait for the final installation with all coming painting and other cosmetics. Thanks for sharing all these with us.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Don1966 on August 25, 2014, 07:31:19 PM
Simon that is a joy to watch running. Such smooth motions, like Dave said poetry in motion. I like............. :praise2:

Don
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on September 01, 2014, 07:47:20 PM
Thanks for the comments everyone!

While doing some slightly tedious shaping on the base, I've been trying to figure out an arrangement for the drain cocks.

I'm thinking of something like this:

(http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2470.0;attach=20182;image)

The drain cocks have to project down to clear the top plate of the base. They are connected by a linkage so that all four cocks open at once. The linkage runs on two spindles that go through the base wall, and are driven by a central lever connected to an external handle. The links pivot 90deg to open and close the cocks. (I haven't shown any plumbing for the drains, but will probably bring the four together and exhaust them under the main exhaust).

Outside the handle looks a bit like this, and you can see two nuts which are the ends of the spindles.

(http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2470.0;attach=20184;image)

So, I would like feedback on this mechanism. Do I have enough mechanical advantage with the main lever? Is the linkage strong enough to turn all four drain cocks? To give some idea of size, the rod from which the links are made is 3/32" (about 2.4mm).

Thanks for any input  :cheers:
Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jasonb on September 01, 2014, 08:09:10 PM
For an idea of size these are the ones on my traction engine. The same lever will do 4 valves on the compound version

Lever on actual valve is 1/2"

The vertical rocking lever is 7/8" on the short end and 2 5/32" on the long end which would equate to an actual lever of 1 9/32"

The long rod is 1/8" dia and the flat section between the two valves is 1/8 x 1/16

Thats a 9" flywheel to get an idea of scale

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Fowler%20A7/PICT0256.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Fowler%20A7/PICT0147.jpg)

To keep the end of your lever looking nice and slim like you have it I would form a square on the end of the shaft and make a matching square hole in the lever, retain on the shaft with a nut.

Probably no need for the lever to have its own pivot, put it on the end of one shaft and just link to the other, links could also go on the outside as its a shame to hide them
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Roger B on September 01, 2014, 08:13:46 PM
The drain plugs look to me to have taper seats. How finely can they be adjusted as they will be the major load? I would use a larger 1/8 / 3.2 mm tube to couple the valve and use a larger diameter pivot for the lever. The lever itself looks long enough.

Still following along, keep up the magnificent work  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on September 01, 2014, 09:58:53 PM
Thanks guys. I tried putting the links on the outside in the model, but I don't think they look right, because they are so low on the base. If they were coming out of the cylinder block then it would look more appropriate.

(http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2470.0;attach=20186;image)

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on September 02, 2014, 05:52:00 AM
While thinking about drain cocks I spent the long weekend doing a variety of long-postponed finishing tasks on the base.

I finally milled out the hole under the cylinder block to provide space for the exhaust and drain cocks:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3893/14927671537_0297caaa0f_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oK7dFc)

and that also got the corner-rounding treatment:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5551/15111221941_1a485b6872_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/p2jXPk)

It's always a fiddle to know how far to go when using corner-rounding cutters, so I've taken to writing down how far to move after touching off the side and bottom of each size of cutter:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3918/15111222971_9906574ce9_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/p2jY86)

Are these supposed to be standard values? :noidea:

I've been postponing dealing with the oil well details because I wasn't sure how to handle the interference with the linkage parts. In the end I decided to just treat them as cosmetic details, and mill away enough for clearance, which I think will be OK. I made a test part to see how it looked:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3843/14926140278_e85dc4d301_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oJYnub)

and, being reasonably happy with that, went into mass production mode. Some 1/4" slots and milling away the bulk of the inside first:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5569/14926141418_b4a87dee21_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oJYnPQ)

then sculpt the inside with a 3/16" ball end mill:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5565/15089724046_f7f0349405_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oZqMeY)

and hit them up with a small-radius corner-rounding cutter:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5579/15109708171_9258780d44_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/p2ccPR)

The next steps had to be done one-by-one. First, round the outer corners:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3854/14926029159_4c5568e4cb_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oJXNsk)

then flip over the material to mill away the underside, freeing the part:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3850/14926067620_bd604b07e2_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oJXZTs)

After some cleanup with files, then are then drilled 1/16" for some pins that will hold them in place while epoxying:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5559/14926166127_7874d09492_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oJYvaR)

and here they are after applying J-B Weld:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3891/15112350522_13b5ab0e60_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/p2qKiC)

I'm hoping that will hold for milling away the center part.

A bit of sculpting was done to clean up the clearance under the con rods too:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3885/15109712341_25c2a78c07_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/p2ce4K)

The other "git 'er done" thing was to finish off the base bolt-down bosses. This involved turning down some scrap to 1/2" and drilling, chamfering the corners slightly, then parting off:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5577/14927660958_aa24ce9f1d_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oK7awN)

for a snug fit in the existing holes in the base:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3863/15091233316_92cf455ed8_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oZyvTS)

I fixed these in with Loctite, then use J-B Weld to add a fillet, using some bits of ball-ended rod that I made a while back to smooth the fillet to a consistent radius:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3889/15114230705_30c4b0306c_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/p2Aodz)

Now things are curing overnight  :atcomputer:

That completes most of the work on the base, other than a few holes for exhaust and drain cock mechanism.

Thanks for looking in!  :cheers:

Simon

Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jo on September 02, 2014, 05:54:44 AM
Nice  :ThumbsUp:

Jo
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: fumopuc on September 02, 2014, 06:07:43 AM
Hi Simon, that is comming along very nice. I like all these details. Concerning the linkage for the drain cocks, the outside arrangement could be an easier assembly solution and also some more movable parts a visible. My 2 Cents.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on September 05, 2014, 06:08:02 AM
Some big slices of tubing arrived from Speedy Metals on Tuesday, so I've been cleaning them up on the lathe and thinking about a built-up flywheel. Here's the current plan:

(http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2470.0;attach=20283;image)

Turn the hub out of a bit of bar, then mill out a pocket for the base of each spoke, and drill a hole for a pin (since the pockets can't go very deep before they interfere). Spokes are milled down with a bit of a taper (leaving a short untapered section to fit into the hub pocket), and given the corner-rounding treatment. Outer ends are drilled for another pin. Spokes are J-B Welded into the hub with pins. This assembly is then turned (with suitable per-spoke clamping somehow) to put a radius on the end of the spokes.

The rim is made from two pieces. The inner piece has holes drilled to take pins that pin the spoke ends. This fits over the spokes, and is affixed with pins and epoxy. Finally the outer rim piece is heat-shrunk on, hiding the pins. Finally the two-part rim is cleaned up by turning, and the outer surface given a nice curve.

How does that sound? I'm a bit scared by the heat-shrinking part, but the rest sounds do-able.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: kvom on September 05, 2014, 12:40:46 PM
Think about loctite for fitting the rim.  Plenty strong, and you can separate it by applying heat if something goes wrong.  The same it true for the spokes at the hub.  With a shrink fit you'd need a pretty good sized press to get it off (other than cutting it in two).
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on September 13, 2014, 07:20:49 AM
It's time for a progress update! I've been busy making the flywheel pictured above, and it's finally coming together.

The two-part rim started out as some slices of tubing, and I ordered some 1144SP for the hub, and 1018 bar for the spokes:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3837/15035279767_1108b61198_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oUBJRv)

First order of the day was to clean up the parts for the rim. What a chore that was!

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3919/15035266038_c47b706048_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oUBELN)

This steel gives of hot blue chips at the slowest speed I could use on my lathe, and the carbide inserts had a habit of digging in and stalling the lathe, then chipping as I pulled them out. I totalled several inserts before getting through the crust and switching to HSS on the two bits of pipe.

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5553/15221853305_69f6cb4ae9_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/pc6YED)

Even with HSS I could only take about 4 thou cuts, so trimming the pieces down to size took a while.

The inner rim part has a decorative scallop, which was easy to do with the handy 6mm Glanze insert that I recently got in an across-the-pond shipment from Chronos:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5552/15035060329_cb7de9ed3b_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oUABC6)

The outer 6" rim was just about at the limit for my chuck:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3923/15218770551_667035ba67_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/pbQbgH)

I left a step on the inside surface as a register to press the inner rim up against, and bored the inside until the inner ring was a light press fit. That left me with this:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5570/15035061279_8ac8462702_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oUABUt)

and more than enough of this :insane:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3864/15035268978_ece708c03d_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oUBFDu)

The final operation on the inner rim was to drill 6 holes for pins around the perimeter on the vertical rotary table:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5582/15218779961_4e923d558f_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/pbQe4X)

Now to the spokes! The depth stop on the bandsaw was give a rare excursion, so we start with 6 bits of bar:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3881/15035062359_e0ffd516af_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oUACe6)

After milling down to size, these were drilled in the 4-jaw for pins at both ends:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5579/15218772671_331c3b718f_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/pbQbUg)

and a collection of pins was made from 3/16" drill rod:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3858/15221474482_6b152afd39_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/pc534d)

Now the spokes get a taper on both sides. The outer surfaces get a taper of about 0.5deg, set by placing a pin in each end of the part, and placing them onto adjustable parallels set to give the correct taper with a bit of trig:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3882/15035063889_f72a164082_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oUACFt)

That taper makes workholding a little trickier for the second taper, but two spokes placed in opposite directions allow for parallel clamping:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5561/15221476512_92feeb195c_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/pc53Ed)

I didn't bother adjusting the vise to avoid the slight angle on the face, since the error is so small. A similar holding trick was used to hold the spokes for corner-rounding:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5574/15221860055_843564b9bb_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/pc71F2)

So we have 4 spokes, the left two having been tidied up with a bit of filing:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5565/15218776721_7fea6e0e64_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/pbQd76)

The spokes are left slightly long at this stage.

The next part to make is the hub, which started as a bit of 1.375" 1144SP bar. I turned a spigot on each end to aid with holding:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3872/15221861165_aac0e24e4c_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/pc721a)

so that for later operations I could hold it in a collet. After roughing out the main shape, I used a corner-rounding end mill as a shaping tool:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5586/15035163720_acbabd8a70_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oUB9mG)

and for the middle bit:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5552/15035068519_e57d450cc4_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oUAE4i)

but it didn't reach into the corners, so the middle bulge was done with a step-off chart and a radius tool:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3865/15035290767_c7f8dea8fc_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oUBN8a)

That's the turning done:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3880/15035291217_40d73bfa72_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oUBNfV)

Now it was onto the rotary table in vertical mode to drill and mill pockets for the spokes. First, drilling to take the pins:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3835/15035071279_1d36b2f5d7_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oUAEST)

and then milling pockets to fit the base of each spoke:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3916/15221865505_93fa3fac17_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/pc73hZ)

There followed a lot of fitting, and some enlarging of the pin holes to get the spokes to fit into their sockets without canting over to one side (it seems that the pin holes were a bit off on either the hub on the spokes).

Now that the spokes can be fitted into the hub, the hub was stet up on the rotary table, and each spoke fitting into its respective socket, then a curve milled on the end to fit the inside of the rim:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3836/15035167950_a7fa4353ee_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oUBaBC)

So here's the collection of parts so far:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3886/15035295047_aaaea492fe_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oUBPoX)

and now it's time for the J-B Weld! That didn't go quite as smoothly as planned. I had air lock problems that kept wanting to push a couple of spokes out of their sockets, and fitting them all inside the rim was a race against time as the epoxy hardened. But we got there in the end, and it was left overnight on some parallels to harden up.

However, my hardening setup didn't ensure that the hub was aligned with the rim and giving the setup a trial run in the lathe the next  morning showed a large amount of runout :hammerbash: I wish I'd set it up on the rotary table with the hub spigot in a collet.

All was not lost, however; I set it up in the 4-jaw indicating on the rim, sawed off the spigot, and then gave both sides of the hub a skim:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3867/15218784181_a5e9fe9009_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/pbQfjH)

and I think it'll be just fine.

Back to the inside jaws, and now I can skim the outside of the rim to turn down the projecting pins (after grinding away the bulk of them):

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3913/15221869235_708202173d_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/pc74pi)

I didn't want to take a pass over the whole surface, because this is already a light press fit into the outer rim, and taking off more would have made it loose.

Kvom, you suggested Loctite here, but I had some voids to fill and it wasn't a very tight press fit so I went with J-B Weld. I chilled the inner assembly, and heated the outer rim to make it easier to fit, and that worked very well. The J-B Weld didn't seem to mind being applied to the hot outer rim (just-about-touchable hot, not enough to color the steel), and the inner part pushed in nicely (I made sure it was seated using the hand press). There's no way this is coming apart!

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3873/15035283028_c9501dab58_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oUBKPJ)

After things had set up for a while, I fiddled around with Milliput trying to add fillets around the spoke ends, but that didn't go well:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3905/15221487542_c29270e698_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/pc56Wo)

so I mixed up bit more J-B Weld and used that instead.

By this evening the rim join had hardened enough to allow me to clean up the inside face of the rim, remove the register, and leave a nice corner fillet:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3893/15221871255_5760bb0d2c_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/pc7518)

What remains is to put a curve on the outer rim, and to do the bore and keyway. With any luck, I'll get those done tomorrow!

Thanks for watching!

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jasonb on September 13, 2014, 07:47:22 AM
Looking good Simon.

Regarding the milliput if you apply it like in the photo then do as you did on the holddown lugs on the base - take something with a round end, dip in water and just run that around the joint, the water stops it sticking to the putty. It will shape the milliput far better than it shapes JB Weld, you can then easily remove the excess and follow up with a damp artists paintbrush for tha final smoothing, should not need any rubbing down afterwards either.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jo on September 13, 2014, 07:52:56 AM
I like Simon  :ThumbsUp: That is very nice flywheel.

Jo
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: NickG on September 13, 2014, 10:49:03 AM
Well done, pretty exquisite that Simon.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: kvom on September 13, 2014, 01:42:47 PM
Nice job.  The loctite I suggested/use is 620, which is for sliding fits.

My version has two flywheels, but given the work needed for one I can see why you'd not have two.  Is there going to be a pulley on the other end of the crank?
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Kim on September 13, 2014, 04:23:22 PM
Great work on the flywheel Simon.  :ThumbsUp:
Thanks for the excellent write-up (as always).
Kim
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on September 13, 2014, 04:41:13 PM
Thanks Jo, Nick, Kvom and Kim!

Looking good Simon.

Regarding the milliput if you apply it like in the photo then do as you did on the holddown lugs on the base - take something with a round end, dip in water and just run that around the joint, the water stops it sticking to the putty. It will shape the milliput far better than it shapes JB Weld, you can then easily remove the excess and follow up with a damp artists paintbrush for tha final smoothing, should not need any rubbing down afterwards either.

Thanks Jason! I did actually try smoothing it with a rounded-end rod dipped in water, but the adhesion of the Milliput to the part wasn't good enough. The part was clean, but perhaps it didn't like sticking to the epoxy that was already there. I have the "silver" type; do the different types of Milliput have different properties?

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Don1966 on September 13, 2014, 05:20:48 PM
Dam Simin you didn't mess around with that flywheel, Nice work.  :ThumbsUp:

Don
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Roger B on September 13, 2014, 06:01:58 PM
Excellent flywheel  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp: You also like to see just how far you can push your lathe  ;) Still following along  :DrinkPint:
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on September 13, 2014, 06:46:51 PM
Excellent flywheel  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp: You also like to see just how far you can push your lathe  ;) Still following along  :DrinkPint:

She's an old Emco, older than me, and she has her limits but she's a workhorse and gets the job done! After this build I'll give her a treat by realigning the headstock and make some gibs to fix the nodding milling head.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: fumopuc on September 13, 2014, 07:47:08 PM
Hi Simon, nice flywheel and a very good build report, as usual.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jasonb on September 13, 2014, 09:05:09 PM
Simon, I use the "superfine white" which is easier to work and also seems a bit more sticky. The surface really neads to be degreased and you want to push the putty well into the surface first.

J
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on September 14, 2014, 12:32:05 AM
Thanks Jason. I was quite surprised to see Milliput in a hobby shop here in the US, though I don't know if I'll be able to find superfine white.

Anyway, here's a beauty shot of the flywheel:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5581/15043175098_dc8d9d9365_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oVjcRU)

Putting a good finish on the outside surface is a bear with this steel; I got bored and gave up for now.

Simon

Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: ths on September 14, 2014, 01:38:11 AM
Great post Simon, and a lovely result. Hugh.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on September 14, 2014, 02:18:21 AM
Beautiful work on the flywheel Simon!

Dave
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Stilldrillin on September 14, 2014, 08:54:34 AM
That flywheel, is a thing of beauty.......  :praise2:

Well done Simon!  (http://freesmileyface.net/smiley/respect/applause-003.gif) (http://freesmileyface.net/free-respect-smileys.html)

David D
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Don1966 on September 14, 2014, 04:18:01 PM
Oh yea! That's a nice flywheel Simon and I need to finish building mine up. Great job bud.  :ThumbsUp:

Don

Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on September 15, 2014, 07:14:39 AM
Thanks Hugh, Dave, David and Don!

I snuck that flywheel on you all by skipping some steps since the last time it was shown, so, quickly, here are the last few operations on it.

The curved rim was done with a step-off chart, generated in a spreadsheet based on the equation for a circle and using the Glanze 6mm circular cutter. I actually made a small boo-boo and wound in about 3 thou too much on one of the early cuts, so re-did the numbers with a slightly larger radius to take the middle down a bit. It's interesting that the plans show the curve to be a 6" radius, which equates with the diameter of the flywheel. I suppose it just makes drafting easier :)

Here's the profile when almost done with the left side (working from the center outwards):

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3851/15057565550_3061da7151_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oWzXD9)

I had an indicator for left-right travel (done using the topslide), and just used the dials for tool advance, doing some two-handed knob twirling to try to interpolate between the steps in my chart.

The finish left by the tool was pretty poor, and of course the steps needed to be evened out, so I spent about an hour and a half with various files and coarse emery, trying to get rid of the gouges so I could start the emery stepping. Some marker shows the high and low bits:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5557/15057492639_957e1b829e_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oWzzY4)

Part of the reason this was so laborious is because the lathe is running quite slowly, so you have to keep the file in the same spot for a what seems like a long time to cover the whole circumference. At times, I stopped the lathe and did some draw-filing to target specific areas. Something else I tried was rubbing with 120-grit emery in a circular motion.

After a while I got bored and decided to drill, bore and ream the hub while in the same setup.

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3912/15221245126_4b6e0b29c2_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/pc3RSN)

Normally I'd do this first, then put the flywheel on a mandrel for the final pass over the rim, but there's no way I could do another pass over that radius! I know the reamer is a snug fit for my crankshaft, so runout should be minimal.

Finally, we need a 1/8" keyway, so out came the nice broach set, and two passes of the broach (the set came with a shim) and we have a nice keyway:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3837/15244252685_7ebbb113b8_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/pe5MdR)

There, I think that that sits much better on the engine than the temporary cast flywheel  ;D

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5553/15057495479_ce3e830e41_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oWzAP2)

The other bit I got done today was to finish off the crosshead pins. I'd already turned the pin shafts to a close 0.250" on a bit of drill rod. This was set up in the vise with a V-block to hold it, and the conrod+washer used to find the location of the hole for the taper pin.

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5582/15057338029_930e1f81ea_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oWyN1n)

I started the hole with a sharp spotting drill:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3841/15241008791_1bddf261dc_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/pdN9VD)

then drilled through with a 0.063", half-way with drill a couple of steps up, and then just touched the top of the hole with the larger drill. On the right you see one of the spiral pin reamers I got for this job:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5564/15221090106_63b936e081_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/pc34N3)

I go this nice collection of taper pin reamers from eBay for about $25, with the hope that they'd work better than the straight taper pin reamer I broke trying to pin my crankshaft  :hammerbash:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5558/15244093465_d00e9b4e8b_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/pe4XTF)

Well, it worked like a dream!

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3887/15057531727_f29a4cef9d_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oWzMzZ)

Slow speed, cutting fluid and very gentle downward pressure, and I got nice fine spiral chips. I should probably have marked the reamer for depth, but I just went down until I could not longer see the step created by the larger drill. Both crosshead pins were done without incident.

Back in the lathe, I set over the topslide by indicating on one of the reamers (a shim between the indicator point and the reamer evened out the bumps), then cut some taper pins from 1/8" drill rod.

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3851/15057532557_c82ceda415_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oWzMQi)

That'll do  ;)

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3918/15057341229_ff80532e12_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oWyNXx)

Thanks for stopping by!

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jo on September 15, 2014, 07:28:44 AM
 8) Looks like you have sussed those tapered pins.

Jo
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jasonb on September 15, 2014, 07:39:39 AM
Simon, next time you have  a curve to blend try some of the small 2" abrasive discs in a cordless drill or airtool. They tend to cut across the ridges as the work turns in the lathe and get through the job very quickly. I tend to stop at 400g as I like the satin finish rather than going to blingy.

http://catalogue.3m.co.uk/en_gb/gb-asd/Roloc_Quick_Release_System
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: gbritnell on September 15, 2014, 12:55:17 PM
Beautiful work as usual Simon. In my experiences with spiral reamers they give a much nicer finish than the straight flute ones.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Kim on September 15, 2014, 04:20:12 PM
Couldn't agree more Simon, beautiful work!
Kim
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Roger B on September 15, 2014, 07:06:22 PM
Good work, as ever  :praise2:  Rather than marking the taper reamers it is easier to make a washer with an appropriate size hole and put that over the reamer to act as a depth stop.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on September 22, 2014, 06:37:51 AM
Thanks for the comments folks!

I've been doing various bits and bobs over the weekend. Moving the attachment point for the control arm went OK; I turned a button with a fillet on it already to avoid having to do the fillet on the rounding table (not enough headroom with the complete base on the rotary table). The old boss was milled off, and a plug Loctited in and peened:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5587/15281080406_647e3f109a_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/phkwPy)

I milled away the plug and cleaned up with sandpaper, and you can't see a trace of the old hole. This shot also shows me using a center finder for a change:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5579/15303766782_8eedd13543_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/pjkNFY)

Now we can mill a pocket for the button:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3838/15117426120_4cbe9e5700_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/p2SL6W)

and it was Loctited in. The button was a bit deep, so I had some blending with files to do:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3926/15117543148_9b1e89b0e9_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/p2TmTE)

and then it was drilled through, and the surface taken down:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5552/15117543888_ac427313bd_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/p2Tn7q)

One side of the control arm needs turning down to suit (using an expanding mandrel that I happened to have of the right size):

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5591/15117580797_4b174afe11_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/p2Ty5M)

I also fashioned a hand wheel from some earlier hand wheel experiments (it's a bit small, so temporary), so now the control arm can be fitted correctly:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3842/15304135125_45b1be0ea8_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/pjnGbH)

The control arm has two pins with taper pins, so I got a bit more practice with the taper pin reamers.

I cleaned up everything and put the engine back together today, after milling clearance in the oil wells for the linkage parts. It's running OK, but there are a few tight spots that need some attention, and one of the valves isn't seating quite right  :thinking:

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jo on September 22, 2014, 07:49:42 AM
It's running OK, but there are a few tight spots that need some attention, and one of the valves isn't seating quite right  :thinking:

I have a couple of engines like that I just can't claim that they are running  :ROFL:

Jo
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Kim on September 22, 2014, 03:45:52 PM
Nice rework job Simon!
You're getting pretty close I'd think...
Kim
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Don1966 on September 23, 2014, 08:43:20 PM
 8).......... :ThumbsUp:


Don
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: fumopuc on September 24, 2014, 05:08:11 AM
Hi Simon, great job.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on September 24, 2014, 06:38:54 AM
Thanks Jo, Don, Kim and Achim  :ThumbsUp:

I'm off across the pond for a family visit, so thought I'd take some beauty shots to show the folks back home. But now that I look at these photos I see all the things that need work: studs, studs and more studs, correctly fit the slides, various pins, some nuts, key for the flywheel and control link etc etc.  :toilet_claw:  :insane:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3897/15337770075_755f660340_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/pnm5FD)

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3859/15151183418_86ba02c0c2_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/p5RLYj)

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3871/15151238427_9b5821d619_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/p5S4jK)

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2943/15314736886_dff94e71b7_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/pkj2HG)

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3923/15337773445_f8b303242a_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/pnm6FK)

and here's a bit of video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwbtS-zgncI

So no updates from me for a week or two, then, when I get back, I think I'll tackle the drain cocks  :embarassed:

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jo on September 24, 2014, 07:15:28 AM
I too always find it is the suds that are so demanding of my attention  :LittleDevil:

Drain cocks :facepalm: that reminds me I still have to make the brass work for the Double Tangye cylinders

It is looking very nice  :embarassed:

Jo
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: ths on September 24, 2014, 09:37:50 AM
Looks great Simon, the folks better be impressed! Enjoy the trip. Cheers, Hugh.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: vcutajar on September 24, 2014, 11:31:04 AM
That is really looking good Simon.

Enjoy the holiday.

Vince
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Don1966 on September 24, 2014, 01:19:36 PM
Awesome Simon, she runs great and a nice looking engine. Enjoy you trip across the pond I know I did.

Don
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Kim on September 24, 2014, 03:55:36 PM
That looks great Simon!  I love watching it run - all that beautiful, smooth motion!

I'm sure you'll get on with the studs eventually :)
Kim
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on September 24, 2014, 07:16:57 PM
That's beautiful Simon & and it runs as nice as it looks.

It will be interesting to see how you go about finishing it.

Have a great trip!

Dave
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: fumopuc on September 24, 2014, 08:00:55 PM
Hi Simon, I like the motion. Enjoy your trip to the  UK.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Roger B on September 25, 2014, 11:46:07 AM
Looking really good  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp: I hope the UK's weather holds out for you  ::)
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on October 04, 2014, 07:32:31 PM
I've discovered that one of the pinned joints on my crankshaft is loose now (must have become loose when fitting the flywheel)  :hammerbash:

I'll try treating with Loctite 603, but the penetration won't be good so this would be a temporary fix. I don't think I can bash out the pin and re-glue without damaging the parts. Since I have some big sticks of 1144SP kicking around, I'm back to thinking about a turned crankshaft.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jasonb on October 04, 2014, 08:21:10 PM
Before going to a new crank try drilling the pin out a fraction larger and fit a new pin. Can't remember did you just put the pins in or did you pein over the ends to tighten them up?
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on October 04, 2014, 09:06:25 PM
Thanks Jason, I did pein the pins over. I can feel and see the crank end rotating around the pin; I'm going to see if I can work in some Loctite by wobbling, then set it up on some V-blocks to harden.

I found that I don't have a bit of 1144 big enough, so will have to order some ($32-$60 + shipping depending on supplier  :o)

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Hugh Currin on October 05, 2014, 12:13:54 AM
Simon:

That is a beautiful build. As I look at it I keep identifying parts I remember you building, and all the work that has gone into each. Really stunning.

Locktite makes a penetrating version for assembled parts. From MSC I think its their 290. I've used it for loose bearing presses (bicycle hub) and it worked well. You might give that a try.

Thank you for posting the build.

I've discovered that one of the pinned joints on my crankshaft is loose now (must have become loose when fitting the flywheel)  :hammerbash:

I'll try treating with Loctite 603, but the penetration won't be good so this would be a temporary fix. I don't think I can bash out the pin and re-glue without damaging the parts. Since I have some big sticks of 1144SP kicking around, I'm back to thinking about a turned crankshaft.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on November 17, 2014, 05:57:16 AM
Gosh, over a month since that last update  :o Travel, work and the garden have been taking time, and, to be honest, a couple of issues with the engine put me off a little bit.

I seem to have rescued the crankshaft. I soaked it in denatured alcohol for a while to try to get the oil out of the loose joint, then applied some Loctite (619 I think?) and set it up on some V-blocks overnight. Now everything seems rigid, but I'm going to be careful hammering the flywheel on and off in future (which I think is what loosened the joint).

The second issue that I haven't dealt with yet is tightness on one of the piston rod glands. I think one of the cylinder covers is not quite square, so I'm considering making a new pair.

As a gentle re-introduction to the workshop, I attended to the bearing covers. When we last saw these they looked a bit like this:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7564/15810496932_325249cc0b_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/q67VUG)

and while they were still attached to the parent stock, I tidied up the top profile around the oil box, using the rotary table:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5608/15785266616_71d1908da9_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/q3TBPf)

and ball-end mill:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7467/15623114109_ee62c9dca9_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/pNyxwn)

Some pockets were milled to take the stud pads:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7562/15623743887_7f698f3acb_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/pNBLJB)

and I milled out the oil cavity:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7531/15808929375_d36ac571e0_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/q5YTVR)

Next they were cut off from the parent stock, held upside-down in the vise with a bit of packing on each side, and the bottom surface milled to size. After a bit of cleanup, we're ready to J-B Weld in the pads:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7512/15623535688_320b37c736_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/pNAGQY)

which gives us this:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7568/15188971494_ca9ded1a63_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/p9cs3S)

A trial fit shows that we need a bit more clearance around the bearing flanges:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7497/15188970914_c99a48f512_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/p9crSS)

Now for the oil well caps. I wanted a pyramidal tap, and computed the two required angles. The material here is, I think, naval brass; it's harder than normal brass, and makes bright yellow chips.

I used my usual technique to get the angle (some trig, and an adjustable parallel next to the vise jaws). Here both caps are still attached, and I'm cutting the second side of one cap. I marked the center line, and just milled to that.

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8625/15807055791_c5f6946903_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/q5PhYF)

Now the caps have been separated, and I'm holding them side-by-side in the vise with the second angle set:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7531/15189491463_11ed014e45_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/p9f7BR)

again milling to the marked line. If the angles are right, the faces should join at the corners, which they do  :cartwheel:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5614/15188973904_9eb75b8771_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/p9csLq)

Holding them for the remaining ops is a bit tricky. Here's how I trimmed down the sides:

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8395/15623540098_fd068d76df_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/pNAJa1)

and I had to use some 1/8 key stock packing for the remaining sides.

They still need some spit n' polish, but I'm quite pleased with the way they turned out:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7473/15808935905_42a86bd3f6_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/q5YVSr)

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5602/15623752857_93b7c73c2b_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/pNBPpg)

Don't worry, I'll be making studs for these!

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: fumopuc on November 17, 2014, 06:08:20 AM
Hi Simon, good to see you back in the shop again.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Kim on November 17, 2014, 06:34:27 AM
Hi Simon,
Glad to see you moving forward on this beautiful engine!
It can be hard to get back in the swing of things when you've been out of the shop for a bit.  And it can be hard to push through with the finishing work that needs to be done once you've got an engine running!  Put these two together and I'd say you're doing great! :)
Kim
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Coopertje on November 17, 2014, 11:58:49 AM
Very nice work Simon, really like the square caps you have made. I admire your skills and dedication, I have never been able to work so long on a single project. I hope you are able to find the energy to finish this engine, it deserves it!

Regards Jeroen
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Don1966 on November 17, 2014, 01:56:21 PM
Simon glad your over coming some of your hurdles. You continue to do some impressive metal carving and this engine is a fascinating engine to see come together.nice work all the way around bud.


Don
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Roger B on November 17, 2014, 03:37:33 PM
Still following along  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp: I do like your oiler caps  :praise2:
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on December 01, 2014, 06:42:18 AM
Thanks for the comments everyone  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

I had a bit of time over the Thanksgiving break to work in the shop. First order of business was a to fix the sticking piston rod. One side was fine, but the other side had some binding when the cylinder cover was clamped down. Initially (before a logical investigation) I thought the cylinder cover bore wasn't perpendicular with the flange face, so I turned a mandrel in situ to the diameter of the piston rod, clamped the cylinder cover on it and saw from the indicator about 6 thou of "runout" on that face:

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8661/15733158330_5ea185bc3d_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/pYhxQw)

I took a skim of the flange with a sharp tool:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7567/15733006598_631bd9615d_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/pYgLJs)

Alas, on reassembly, that didn't help  :'(

After a bit of :thinking: I knew I had to check that the piston and crosshead were correctly aligned. I checked the horizontal alignment with a bit of ground bar across the two piston rods, with an indicator above the rod on the troublesome side. Sure enough, the rod dipped about 3-4 thou over the range of piston travel. This indicated that the crosshead was low (I was pretty sure my crosshead guides were horizontal, since they were milled out in the same setup as the "good side").

I made up a shim to go between the body of the crosshead and the lower plate from a bit of 0.004" feeler gauge:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7575/15919806142_db95defe75_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qfMaJf)

That fixed the dipping problem. When I put the crosshead back together, I was careful to check for sideways movement, adjusted by leaving those two screws not quite tight, and tapping the crosshead on the side until there was no sideways deflection of the piston rod over its travel. Then the screws could be tightened.

Now there was still binding when the cylinder cover was clamped down, so I put the cylinder cover back on that mandrel (which I hadn't disturbed), and took another measure (it was now low on the flange where I skimmed it before!) followed by a skim. On reassembly, the piston now moves without binding. Very satisfying! :pinkelephant:

Now that I had a smooth-running motion, I played with the valve timing for a while. I'll probably write more about that later, but did find that if adjusted well in forward, it's a bit lumpy in reverse, which I'm pretty sure is an artefact of the valve gear geometry.

Now, slowed down by a cold, I decided it was best that I stick to easy stuff like making studs, so the valve chest now has a full complement:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7541/15920456815_193041dbb9_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qfQv9K)

(those side ones are still a bit long), the bearing covers also:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7486/15918503961_88c99f0a4f_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qfEuCR)

and I've replaced the screws on the crosshead guides with studs:

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8636/15918607071_bf8e2d5449_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qfF2hB)

Those obviously need some length adjustment, which will have to wait until l tear down the engine so I can make sure they are fully seated before trimming them down. I need to make nicer washers for those, too (and maybe elsewhere).

I've mostly complete the fitting process for this engine now, but I've been wondering if there's a treatise on "fitting" that anyone knows about: how to logically fix issues with non-smooth-running machinery?

Thanks for following along!

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jo on December 01, 2014, 08:42:01 AM
You are doing and excellent job Simon  :ThumbsUp:,

Did I mention: Nice Studs  8)

Jo
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on December 15, 2014, 04:38:44 AM
Thanks Jo!  :ThumbsUp:

I haven't been getting into the workshop as much as I should, but I've been getting bits and bobs done.

The valve guides thingy needed the ends taken down to the correct length, which required a rare trip out for the steady rest:

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8598/16024417372_91cfacd3f2_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qq2k19)

Then I made the exhaust pipe, with a gland on the bottom of the cylinder block, exiting through a hole in the base. A couple of bits of scrap brass were silvered soldered to make the gland:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7469/15999329056_7f6f201a01_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qnNK7Y)

and friction-turned to clean up the fillet:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7583/16024418782_a1ac815fbf_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qq2kqs)

with the flanges squared off in the square collect block:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7530/15839056969_70fbef6bb6_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/q8DiP8)

Then it could be held at a angle to cut the 45deg end of the pipe:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7490/16025100265_231e3f5afd_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qq5Q1a)

with a matching angle on another bit of 3/8" brass pipe. While writing this up, I realized that I should probably have put a bit of a downslope on the exhaust  so that water runs out  :shrug:

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8652/16023161761_2126be45ae_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qpUTKF)

Those were then held for soft soldering.

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7513/16024422132_330ce64786_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qq2mqd)

This is actually the second attempt at this part. In the first attempt, I got this far and tried to silver-solder this joint; however, the solder didn't take, I think because the thin pipe didn't retain enough heat, so for the second try I used soft solder.

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8610/16024422792_ba00a76e27_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qq2mBA)

That cleaned up quite nicely:

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8597/15999334386_2d49d3b58d_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qnNLGS)

and after drilling and tapping 6BA in the cylinder block:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7543/16024424102_af422ba5bc_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qq2n1b)

it's affixed with some studs:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7581/15405479383_84d4d33900_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ptk7iv)

Then I needed a hole in the base for the exhaust, so, after a bit of head scratching, I figured out how to hold the base in the vise on the milling table via a sturdy cross-member. The vise was raised 1/2", and an adjustable parallel used to bring the part to the correct height. A wobbler shows that I got the maths right :D

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7565/15999336376_ce54a181b6_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qnNMib)

This was then drilled in stages, pushing on the base using the tailstock:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7461/16024426172_d06214e535_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qq2nBS)

which was uneventful.

And it fits (the exhaust was not fastened down here):

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7491/16023168431_311d7bf37b_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qpUVJF)

After that was a very tedious couple of hours taking some deep scratches out of the flywheel, but I'll save that until I have a final beauty shot.

We're getting really close to the end now. The only major hurdle left is to figure out how to re-attach some bits of cast iron to the cylinder block to fit drain cocks, and then to make the drain cock mechanism. I need to "put back" some bosses to have enough material to thread for the drain cocks. I know I can use J-B Weld for this, but that wouldn't be a great solution since it would be subject to cylinder pressure, and I'm not sure how well it adheres to cast iron. I think the heat required to braze or silver solder would distort the part, and I'd have a really hard time getting that cylinder block up to silver-solder temperatures. Soft solder might be an option; I need to do some testing to see if it's possible to tin a cast iron surface. Any other ideas?

Thanks for following along  :ThumbsUp:

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Roger B on December 15, 2014, 07:48:34 AM
Coming along very nicely  :praise2:  :praise2:  Is there enough material in the cylinder wall to fit some screw in bosses?
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jasonb on December 15, 2014, 08:04:01 AM
Simon are you going to run on steam or just air? as the temperatures will affect what you can use. Have you got a drawing of where the bosses need to go?


J
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on December 15, 2014, 05:13:17 PM
Thanks Roger and Jason. Roger, the cylinder wall is about 3/16" thick (minus a bit if I mill a flat), which seems a bit thin to take threads.

Jason, I do plan to run it on steam (eventually!). I presume that eliminates the soft solder option?

Here's the underside of the cylinder block:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2820/11397482056_5a3a136ab5_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ina5kj)

and here is my plan for the drain cocks:

(http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2470.0;attach=24215;image)

I don't think there's another route for the drain hole (e.g. out of the side), given the position of the stud hole, and the various flanges.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jasonb on December 15, 2014, 06:09:00 PM
I think rather than D shaped bosses I would go for round ones which can be screwed into fine pitch threaded holes (such as 40 TPI) these can then be tapped for the drain cocks.

If you cut the thread on the boss with a die and do it on the end of a decent length of bar you will have something to get hold of so it can be screwed in tightly and will wedge itself in a bit like a taper pipe thread, the JB Weld will seal any gaps and make sure it does not come loose.

J

PS on those drain cocks what will stop the tapered spindle working its way loose, you probably want a nut on teh small end to keep the spindle pulled into the taper.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on December 15, 2014, 07:05:58 PM
I think rather than D shaped bosses I would go for round ones which can be screwed into fine pitch threaded holes (such as 40 TPI) these can then be tapped for the drain cocks.

If you cut the thread on the boss with a die and do it on the end of a decent length of bar you will have something to get hold of so it can be screwed in tightly and will wedge itself in a bit like a taper pipe thread, the JB Weld will seal any gaps and make sure it does not come loose.

Threading the bosses had crossed my mind; I'll have to try hard to get threads all the way to the bottom of the hole. I do have some 40TPI taps and dies luckily! Seems like it would be good to leave a length of bar sticking out from each boss to ease with tightening, then cut down after things have hardened up.

PS on those drain cocks what will stop the tapered spindle working its way loose, you probably want a nut on teh small end to keep the spindle pulled into the taper.

I had nuts there mentally, just too lazy to model them :)

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jasonb on December 15, 2014, 07:26:27 PM
I was thinking of drilling and tapping right through to the bore, it looks like the hole would not go much further into the bore than the slot for the steam passage so provided your piston packing did not catch the edge of the hole there is no need to do a blind hole.

You could make them a bit like this as they won't show that way you have a smaller dia hole into the cylinder wall which won't come as close to the piston packing and a longer thread length/dia ratio a 3/16x40 thread would be enough as the drain hole only needs to be 1/16"

J
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: kvom on December 15, 2014, 11:02:09 PM
Unless you are going to run high pressure steam you should be able to use soft solder.  30psi steam is 275F.

I was a bit surprised that you hollowed out the bottom of the cylinder, since you will need a sub base to clear the flywheel.  Your exhaust tube could have been routed to the sub-base.  Same applies to cylinder cocks if you need to route the drains using copper tube.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on December 15, 2014, 11:38:27 PM
Unless you are going to run high pressure steam you should be able to use soft solder.  30psi steam is 275F.

I was a bit surprised that you hollowed out the bottom of the cylinder, since you will need a sub base to clear the flywheel.  Your exhaust tube could have been routed to the sub-base.  Same applies to cylinder cocks if you need to route the drains using copper tube.

I hollowed the bottom of the cylinder block to reduce thermal mass, and to make it more like a casting, but I wish I'd thought about drain cocks before I did it.

You're right that I could have taken the exhaust and drain cocks out through the sub-base, which would have given a neater appearance. Wish I'd thought of that now!

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on December 29, 2014, 05:35:15 AM
You're right that I could have taken the exhaust and drain cocks out through the sub-base, which would have given a neater appearance. Wish I'd thought of that now!

I'm thinking of plugging the hole I made in the base and doing what you suggest, Kvom, but we'll see what kind of base I come up with later.

My job over the past few days has been to deal with the cylinder drain cocks, using Jason's suggestion of threaded plugs. I turned some bits of scrap cast iron into little plugs:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7531/15946686330_e9750073ea_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qi9WgL)

which then had a 1/16" hole drilled down the middle. Then I milled a flat spot and some clearance on the underside of the cylinder block:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7524/15946687110_ac9fdb7838_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qi9Wvd)

This intersected one of the cylinder block stud holes, but that's OK.

Then I spot-drilled, and drilled through to the bore for 3/16 40TPI (ME), and threaded:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7579/15514268573_2a870f7f40_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/pCWFxc)

The threaded ends of the plugs were carefully taken down until they just cleared the cylinder bore, testing with one of my bore gauges:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7487/16108205516_6f23f26493_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qxqLij)

A little bit of filing took off the burrs from threading.

The plugs were then fixed in with J-B Weld (continuing to contribute to Jason's retirement fund :) ), screwed them down snug, and left for 48 hours to fully cure. I then sawed off the excess (I thought a saw would have less sideways force than milling them off):

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7508/15947916809_82accd50fb_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qigf3V)

and milled flush with the rest of the "casting":

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7504/16132092861_981d29b678_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qzxcb6)

These holes were then drilled and threaded 5/32 40TPI, taking care not to drill so deep that it would separate the threaded portion from the body of the plug.

Now we move onto making the drain cocks. The cones and a matching D-bit reamer have to be made with the same taper, so the topslide was set at an angle (about 4.5deg), and the cones turned on each end of bits of brass bar:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7467/16132951541_3ea7734692_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qzBAqV)

and a bit of O-1 drill rod turned in the same setup, which you can see in the bottom of this photo. I made some spare cones, to avoid having to try to repeat the same taper setup:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7544/16134856645_510cfee116_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qzMmKx)

As you can see, I also roughed out four drain cock bodies.

To prepare the D-bit reamer, half of the thickness was milled away:

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8682/16133999065_865e894c01_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qzGXPF)

then it was hardened by heating to red hot, then plunging into water. Finally it had a meeting with the india stone to hone the edge.

The second cutter required was a profile tool for the globe of the drain cocks, cut from a bit of gauge plate at a bit of an angle (to provide some relief on the cutting edges):

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7536/16133250992_3804f2aab9_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qzD8rS)

and, after hardening, this was used to profile the drain cock bodies:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7506/15948776009_3598c42585_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qikDsH)

Now we're ready to put that D-bit reamer to use, after drilling a hole equal to the small end of the cone diameter (about 1/8"):

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8616/16134000795_6f227ae9c0_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qzGYkv)

after which we clean up the burrs on both sides with an end mill (the part was held in a square collet block, making it easy to flip it over):

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7512/15948239127_35f550f01d_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qihTS8)

While the cones were still attached ot their parent stock, they were matched with one of the bodies, then lapped in using some very fine Timesaver, followed by Brasso.

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7495/16134002325_ab731dea46_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qzGYMT)

It seems pretty hard to get a good smooth mating finish on these conical parts, since there's no sideways movement, but I think the fit is good enough to avoid leaks.

With the cones lapped, they were then parted off, and the ends cleaned up with a little fixture that had a matching tapered hole and a recess in the back:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7546/16109069056_8e200dda9c_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qxvbZW)

Now the bodies were threaded. It's a bit hard to see, but I've ground down the back of that die to be able to cut threads closer to a shoulder. I only wish the dies came this way!

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7569/15946561758_86da6a1aa6_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qi9ieY)

The cones could then be fitted to their respective body (after some fussing around making small nuts and washers) for drilling the center hole:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7466/16132955111_f98ae22712_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qzBBut)

Finally the cones were parted from their parent stock, and after careful parting off of some Al washers to specific thicknesses, we have all four drain cocks fixed to the cylinder block:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7581/16132099371_059118450b_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qzxe7k)

Next comes the linkages that gang these pairs together. I'm a little concerned that the tails of the cones on the frontmost pair might be too skinny to provide sufficient torque to turn the backmost pair, but we'll see!

Thanks for following along!

Simon

[Edit: added a couple more photos]
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: fumopuc on December 29, 2014, 06:30:35 AM
Hi Simon, good to see you in the shop again. These drain cocks seems to be a high tec solution. Congratulation, they are very well done.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jasonb on December 29, 2014, 07:53:23 AM
Looking good, J
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jo on December 29, 2014, 08:19:10 AM
That was a very good write up on making drain cocks Simon  8)

And the finished parts look just as good  :ThumbsUp:

Jo.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: ths on December 29, 2014, 09:10:50 AM
Hi Simon, I've felt the same way as you about honing mating tapers before, but not having Timesaver, I just used Brasso. Nice write up, good photos (as usual), and seeing you made it, it'll work fine. All the best for the new year, Hugh.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on January 19, 2015, 05:19:58 AM
Well, that first set of drain cocks didn't leave enough clearance under the top plate for the linkages, so I've been remaking them a bit longer, and to a higher standard. So I've not been idle, but haven't got much further than the state of the first set yet. Hopefully I'll have a couple of evenings this week to get some progress to show.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: ReFlad on January 19, 2015, 01:53:51 PM
Simon,
Very impressed with the quality of your work.  A true craftsmans.  Very nice build.  Thanks for showing, as I have learned so very much from you.

Ronald
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on February 16, 2015, 06:06:35 AM
It's been far too long since my last update  :stickpoke:, due to a combination of weeding in the garden, engineering of the software variety, and putting up some shelves in the garage which was a good excuse to clean the workbench:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7294/16357801720_4cc73e8f7a_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qVu1y9)

One thing I got done which I've been planning for a while is to find a metal shelf to hold the indicators. I found this metal shelf by Umbra at the Container Store ($12), and it's perfect:

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8638/16519267406_848ba90334_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/raKyFh)

Back to the engineering! As I mentioned before, I really wasn't happy with the first set of drain cocks, particularly because they all ended up at different heights, necessitated by the washer thicknesses required to have them all line up. Not only was this unsightly, but caused problems for the joining links. They were also too short, lacking clearance with the underside of the top plate of the base.

So we start again on the drain cocks, using some slightly different techniques so that they match better.

First, instead of cutting the globes when they were still attached to the parent stock, I parted each one off after some rough shaping, threaded the base and drilled through, and then set each one up with its Al washer in a fixture which was unmoved between the four parts. This required a bit more end support when applying the form tool, so a taper was cut on a bit of 1/2" drill rod to act as a dead center:

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8577/16519257856_9833535666_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/raKvQC)

That gave me four (oops :hammerbash: three, with one of the older ones at the top) matching parts:

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8655/15922682444_8b1030923e_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qg2UKE)

Of course all the tapers have to match, so that required a new set of spindles and a taper D-bit too.

To make sure they all line up, they were drilled and tapered in situ:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7330/15922683914_a3a6376bac_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qg2Vc1)

with a line on the taper tool to get an accurate depth:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7368/15922684754_875541948d_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qg2Vru)

Mucking around with tapers and globes is a sure way to test your accuracy; the reasonably even band of the flat here shows that my hole is pretty well on the center of the globe, which is good  ;D

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7296/15922685144_b3df4ced81_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qg2Vyd)

Once again a spindle is matched to each part, and drilled through:

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8604/16358986229_bfaae54cd8_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qVA5EH)

Here's another "do it better the second time" thing. The spindles need various cuts parallel to the drilled hole, and on each end, so I made this little square fixture, with a central hole cut with the tapered D-bit, and a cross hole to pick up the steam passage in the spindle.

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7457/16544182232_373a90abff_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/rcXfZf)

This allowed me to work on one end, then flip it around and work on the other (rather than the end being buried inside a collet). One end gets a cross hole and then a slot with a saw:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7433/16543567751_b7b30217f9_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/rcU7jK)

and the other a cross hole and some thinning.

A couple of bits of 1/8" SS and things are starting to come together:

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8652/16357596148_71007351e4_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qVsXrN)

There's a bit of slop in those pin holes, to allow the tapers to move as they are tightened up.

Now to the linkages that open and close the drain cocks.

I decided to go for a handle on the outside, riding in a bronze boss, connecting to a parallel linkage on the inside. First, the "frame" for the parallel linkage is a bit of bar with three holes which will have bronze bearings, and two stud holes (lower in photo):

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7340/15925059563_c429bd5b2f_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qgf6ot)

You can also see there a bit of SS tapered and drilled for the "arms" of the parallel motion. I think this was a bit of 304, so a bit of a bear to machine. The thinner slitting saw certainly veered off a bit  :wallbang:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7327/16359360607_cda5e76316_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qVBZXv)

but a thicker blade worked fine:

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8627/16543552381_822f463a7f_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/rcU2KK)

The small bronze bearings are a simple turning job:

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8625/15922677044_9e8de02f3d_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qg2T9y)

The hole at the big end of those arms was filed square, and some matching squares milled on the rod that transfers through to the handle, and then the two rotating parts at each end:

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8568/16359362617_dc16a56dd2_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qVC1ya)

Here's a family shot which shows the parts better (before filing the holes square); the top bar has a proto part on each end.

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8644/16545282015_4bd7a5495f_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/rd3TV2)

A pleasant diversion was the make the bronze boss for the outside, which started as a small bronze offcut, drilled for the spindle and two stud holes, and some filing buttons at the ready:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7331/16358976149_8be326b8f1_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qVA2EV)

A bit of bar though the middle hole helps with setup:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7399/15922679014_e207907590_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qg2TJw)

and then we can turn a nice bevel on the front:

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8615/15925064353_8cec2f17b4_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qgf7P4)

and after a bit of filing:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7378/16519255266_5af7a5c89e_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/raKv4Y)

I like how it came out  :D

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8608/16358979579_b5c196c372_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qVA3G4)

It needs a bit of a recess on the sloping face of the "casting":

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8672/16357793270_db791d7dc4_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qVtY3s)

and because I can't drill from the inside, I drilled and tapped two through holes which will take screws to hold that "frame" to the inside surface:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7439/15925071553_78de0be906_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qgf9Xc)

Those will get capped off later. The inside need a bit of squaring up, and some clearance for the linkages at the end:

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8590/16543563841_5f62c9c115_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/rcU6ak)

The parts that transfer the torque from the parallel motion to the drain cocks were fiddly little blighters, and had to be remade a couple of times. Working out the order in which things fit together resulting in some rather unconventional nut placement. Here I'm parting off one of those bits:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7419/16544189692_f7c964d4ec_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/rcXicS)

Making handles is always fun! We start with a bit of 303 SS 1/4" bar, and cut a nice taper for the shaft of the handle. This required a bit of 3/4" brass with a center drill hole in the end as a dead center:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7313/16359374947_f7400b7907_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qVC5dK)

After a bit of a polish:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7426/16544181702_ce6dc0391c_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/rcXfQ7)

Now we take a bit off each side:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7297/16358992159_03d201d106_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qVA7qX)

and, while it's centered, drill the hole at the end:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7409/16545296475_b624d861ed_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/rd3Ydk)

This is then flipped around and held (rather awkwardly) in the 4-jaw so the handle part can be done at the other end:

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8571/15925080523_b00a446342_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qgfcBR)

That hole is then filed square to take the square part of the spindle that passes through the side of the casting:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7444/16543573301_1f30cf3546_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/rcU8Yr)

So here's what it looks like on the outside:

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8659/16358998269_ba7cfd29d3_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qVA9fi)

I made sure that the handle travels about 90deg, roughly even on each side, between the open and closed positions. The linkage in the inside is very much not prototypical:

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8622/16357605588_6b8b99d805_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qVt1fy)

but quite functional. However, it's a bear to assemble! Initially I realized it was unassemblable :facepalm2:, so I had to take a burr to the base casting on the inside to add some clearance necessary to get the parts into place. I must have spent about an hour to get it all together, and the assembly order has to be very specific, but finally managed to persuade all the tiny parts into place.

Here's a short video of the motion:

fdevEJur2ik
It feels like it's ages since I've had this engine assembled and running, so after a few remaining odds and ends with this mechanism, I can finally get back on the home stretch, and think about a base and painting.

Thanks, as always, for following along. I hope the next update won't be quite so delayed!

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jasonb on February 16, 2015, 07:57:15 AM
Looks good Simon, I've always wondered why they used a cock on each end of the cylinder and not just take pipes to a common valve, would have made your job a lot easier :-\
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Stuart on February 16, 2015, 09:17:48 AM
Jason

If you only used one valve piped to each end it would breath though the pipe and not get full cylinder pressure each side

Think of it as a bypass to the piston

One at each end is the only way , of course they can be remote from the cylinder but a valve for each end is required.

If you use piston valves drain cocks and mandatory else you will blow the ends of the cylinders off due to hydro lock , a slide valve will lift , you will also need Drain  cocks on the piston valve Also one in the middle making five for a single cylinder

Stuart
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: ShopShoe on February 16, 2015, 02:07:56 PM
Simon,

I enjoyed the whole saga of the drain valves.

I have been mentally working out construction of lever linkages for a future project and also thinking about valves, so your writeup of this has sent me off in some new directions.

Thanks for posting.

--ShopShoe
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on February 16, 2015, 05:12:17 PM
Hi Simon

That valve assembly is a real nice piece of of work! I enjoyed you taking us through the whole process.

Thanks!
Dave
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Florian Eberhard on February 16, 2015, 05:31:27 PM
Now to the linkages that open and close the drain cocks.

I decided to go for a handle on the outside, riding in a bronze boss, connecting to a parallel linkage on the inside. First, the "frame" for the parallel linkage is a bit of bar with three holes which will have bronze bearings, and two stud holes (lower in photo):

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7340/15925059563_c429bd5b2f_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qgf6ot)


Hey Simon

I was just looking at that picture and thought "wait a minute - I know that lever!"
Here you can see why:

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21771006/Hobby/Duplex/IMAG1329.jpg)

Cheers Florian

Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on February 16, 2015, 05:42:17 PM
Thanks for the comments Jason, Stuart, Dave, ShopShoe and Florian!

Jason

If you only used one valve piped to each end it would breath though the pipe and not get full cylinder pressure each side

Think of it as a bypass to the piston

But you could bring the pipes to a common valve which, in the closed position blocks them both off, but in the open position opens them both to exhaust, right? I imagine some kind of D-shaped valve blocking two holes in the closed position.

Florian, it's funny that we have such similar parts! It was so long ago when I made mine that I can't even remember whether I used the rotary table to make it  :facepalm2:

Simon

Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jasonb on February 16, 2015, 05:57:21 PM
Or a simple ball in each pipe union where it joins the cylinder to act as a non return valve.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Don1966 on February 16, 2015, 06:16:01 PM
Simon glad to see you back on this project. Love the valve saga good education.  :ThumbsUp:

 :popcorn:

Don
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Stuart on February 16, 2015, 06:43:21 PM
 But with separate cocks you can set the timing blind by putting a low air on the steam chest and with a tube on the cock you can check when the valve opens, also you can test for valve leaks

Just my 2 pence

Stuart
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Roger B on February 16, 2015, 07:16:56 PM
That's a splendid guide to making taper valves and linkages  :praise2: Thank you  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: fumopuc on February 16, 2015, 07:19:06 PM
Hi Simon, good to see you back at this build. A lot of tiny parts you have made there and also the function seems to work perfect.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: NickG on February 17, 2015, 06:12:33 PM
Very nice Simon. On my old 5" gauge loco (8F I think) called Twin Sisters there were just pipes all going to a central valve as you said.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on June 01, 2015, 07:43:22 AM
After an overly long hiatus, I'm back on this build now.

I picked up a bit of rosewood shelving from a wood recycler in Mendocino, and sawed it up to form the base. It's odd stuff; there are seams in it that won't take a plane in either direction, but it machines like a dream, and sands very nicely:

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/282/18335159205_23da6e15b0_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/tWdu3z)

I did have to whip up a bit of plywood to bolt to the milling table to hold the thing though:

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8849/18147324038_79eb25d13c_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/tDBMcd)

and that gave me enough clamping room to run a router bit along the edges:

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8815/18147429690_2bf5e4067f_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/tDCjAN)

Here it is, as yet unfinished:

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/291/18336626391_7dda86fdc4_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/tWm1bT)

I also made a hand wheel for the forward-reverse mechanism. This started as a brass disk with a central hole silver-soldered onto a bit of 3/8 rod. The edge was then rounded with some form tools, and the central portion thinned out. Then I set it up on the rotary table to cut 4 spokes:

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8892/18331219862_ded2eddae5_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/tVSi1S)

I took the easy approach and kept the spokes an even thickness, instead of tapering them:

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/534/17712568354_7950e21084_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/sZcxty)

and after a bit of time with the files and little strips of emery paper, it looks like this:

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/340/18148990199_9a477f1e79_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/tDLju8)

This weekend was mostly taken up with making some brass cladding for the cylinder block. This isn't shown on the original plans, but I think it'll make a nice finish, and add some insulation. I did consider hammering this out from brass sheet, but decided to just mill it to shape.

Not having any 1/8" brass plate of the appropriate size, I cut some sheets in the bandsaw from a larger block:

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8794/18336647261_4221d17fe6_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/tWm7oH)

The flat size was superglued to a hunk of cast iron which I'd previously squared up, and a step around the edges was milled, and the top face squared off:

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/423/18149005789_9f481940b7_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/tDLp7V)

Now it was a case of cutting four angled faces:

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/504/18331253022_d9814e16e9_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/tVSsSA)

(https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7743/17712610274_25656fc571_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/sZcKWj)

and drilling the holes around the edges:

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/277/18149020649_9051143994_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/tDLtx8)

Two covers done, though I'll round off the edges a bit to make it look more like pressed cladding:

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/265/18149033179_c19dc65315_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/tDLxga)

We're really getting down to the last few parts now! Thanks for watching  :cheers:

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: peatoluser on June 01, 2015, 04:47:05 PM
It's always a pleasure to catch up with this build. And kudos on that hand wheel . polished to perfection!

yours

peter
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: kvom on June 01, 2015, 06:49:42 PM
The covers are skillfully made, but I prefer the side cavities you took such pains to machine, esp. if you plan to paint.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: fumopuc on June 01, 2015, 07:04:46 PM
Hi Simon, good to see you back at this project.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: tvoght on June 01, 2015, 07:10:47 PM
It's good to see more on this engine. The cladding is spectacular!

--Tim
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on June 01, 2015, 07:30:52 PM
Very nice Simon; and I agree with Tim it is nice to see some progress on this interesting project. But who am I to talk.

Dave
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Don1966 on June 02, 2015, 12:00:02 AM
Simon that's some exceptional work and the hand wheel is a treat not to mention the covers. Gorgeous bud just gorgeous.

Don
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on June 21, 2015, 07:41:01 PM
A little more done here. The cylinder block was drilled and tapped 8BA for screws to hold the covers:

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/274/19021738932_a89bb0bf3e_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/uYToh5)

These are the last holes in this part, and went with no problems  :cartwheel:

I got some brass screws from BA Bolts in the UK, made a little jig to shorten 12 at once:

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/353/19030404861_a30655c8c4_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/uZDNmD)

I did consider using studs here, but I think I'll stick with the screws, since this is a model of a small-sized engine  :thinking:

The oilers on the main bearings also needed to be finished off. First, drilling through the oil wells into the bearing to take some brass tube:

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/509/19021745132_b6a04eac7d_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/uYTq7Y)

There's a bit of drill rod in the bearing to avoid deflecting the bronze where the drill comes out, and that worked well. A temporary bearing cap was then fitted, and the bearing drilled out for some clearance around the oil dripper:

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/370/18404717144_116bd49855_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/u3mZco)

Making those little brass tubes cost me a few small drills  :wallbang: It's K&S brass, and more grabby when drilling than 360, also not helped by my tailstock being a bit off:

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/559/18839552390_972c6d66c3_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/uGMCyN)

Here's the tube press-fitted into the bearing cap:

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/330/18841082149_4845502828_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/uGVtiX)

and the fit with the bearing:

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/382/19001050756_b86cea2e45_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/uX4mpo)

I realize now that the hole is too big, and the oil is just going to drain out over the top of the bearing, so I'll probably re-make the brass tubes if I can make a hole small enough.

Finally, the cylinder block needed a good amount of finishing on the exposed surfaces, since machining marks are still very visible:

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/485/19021768792_94cc774cda_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/uYTx9U)

I started with wet&dry on the glass plate, using water, but that makes a horrible rusty mess if you even leave it over lunch:

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/546/18839626418_99dba91f0f_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/uGN1z9)

The red pen is to detect when the low spots are being taken off. I did find that with water, the paper wears out pretty fast, and seems to go into a mode where it's just polishing the part and not cutting any more. Performance with oil seemed much better, and left a better, duller surface finish with better cutting action:

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/312/18406624863_3eb66521b0_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/u3wLi6)

So it was oil from then on! I went up from 150 grit to 600. Some of the deeper scratches needed attention with files and emery sticks, before going back to the glass plate smoothing.

So now we have this:

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/349/19001085976_016f943cdb_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/uX4wSC)

Next up is to cut some holes in the base for bottom access, and figure out the exhaust. I'm still not sure where the pipework is going to go  :noidea:

Thanks again for watching!
Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Jasonb on June 21, 2015, 07:51:27 PM
Simon, those oil tubes should have a strand of worstead wool (natural wool will do ) poked down into them and the top should be draped down into the box where it will wick up the oil. The tube should stand above the bottom of the cavity. That way it will not all run out all at once
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Don1966 on June 21, 2015, 09:07:01 PM
Simon every detail you doing is making this engine just that much more georgous. The lubricator looks like it's a small one, I would just make an orfice and put it in the end of the lubricator to limit the flow of oil. Stunning work bud.

Don
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on August 19, 2015, 05:08:02 AM
Sorry for the lack of updates here folks! Other things have just got in the way over the summer. The only progress I've made recently is to acquire some Aluminum primer and a possible option for the top color (I'm thinking of a chocolate brown, possibly with cream pin-striping).

As we get into autumn I hope to pick this up again.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on January 04, 2016, 03:38:56 AM
Uh oh, this thread is so old I got a warning from the forum software! But there's progress, so here we go!

Just to remind you where we are, here's a shot of the current state of things. The base is semi-complete, and the engine is mostly done other than paint, finishing, and some pipework:

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1629/24135632466_a7278c14fa_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/CLMqEf)

First, the base needed a hole for access to the exhaust fittings and the cylinder valves, so I milled one through the base, just plunging with an end-mill as I would for metal. This rosewood seems quite happy being machined with metal cutters:

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1714/24135641856_4c6802a48c_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/CLMts9)

The plinth is screwed down with some screws:

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1692/23866149120_3ac857ace6_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/CmYfDE)

but these cheap brass Chinese-made screws are prone to breaking :hammerbash:
 
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1718/24161771655_ce289c4100_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/CP6oVV)

I located and drilled holes to take studs to attach the engine base, counter-sinking them on the bottom:

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1589/23533587354_a9c2500de3_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/BRzMC7)

and made the studs from 303 SS:

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1677/24135708356_8b8f0058b2_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/CLMPdG)

A bit of silver-soldering, and we have an exhaust part:

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1449/24053728912_944b660429_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/CDxDA1)

which goes out through a hole in the plinth:

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1666/24161830045_145664d518_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/CP6GhD)

and is sectioned to make assembly easier:

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1712/23866206970_a408697257_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/CmYxR5)

Then the base got a final sanding, and a rub-down with alcohol to remove finger grease:

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1707/24079236471_6fd16341cd_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/CFNo6v)

before staining and some polyurethane.

There was one final job to do on the engine base, which was to fix down the crosshead slides, since these should appear as part of the "casting". I made some small pockets underneath with a burr, mixed up some JB-Weld, and carefully bedded down the slides on a tiny amount of the epoxy, then filleted around the edges, using a ball-ended rod to form the fillets, then screwed them down to set, being careful to set the spacing between the slides:

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1497/24079242251_d1a0e4c3e1_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/CFNpPa)

After an overnight set, they were cleaned up, and the crosshead slides bedded in with some Timesaver compound (which is messy, so done before painting).

Then, today, I masked up the parts in preparation for painting, and get them a wipe down with mineral spirits to remove any grease:

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1517/23866232990_29faeb6775_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/CmYFzG)

and got a first coat on primer on. For the aluminium parts, I'm using aluminum primer, so we'll see how well that resists knocks and bangs.

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1493/23866239820_1abc437ca8_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/CmYHBs)

and on the other parts, a self-etching primer.

So, with a bit more painting and decoration we'll be almost done! If this El Nino happens like they say it will, I'll get a few more wet weekends in the shop and get the darn thing done!

Thanks for watching  :ThumbsUp:

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: ths on January 04, 2016, 04:57:29 AM
I'll second your thoughts on Chinese 'brass' screws. I think that really coloured zinc. There's a lot of nice work there. Cheers, Hugh.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: fumopuc on January 04, 2016, 05:33:12 AM
Hi Simon, good to see you back on it. Superb finish as usual.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Bluechip on January 04, 2016, 06:44:28 AM
Really impressive, Simon.  :ThumbsUp: Looking forward to see it finished.

Brass screws? I used to think they were rubbish, Chinese or not. Until a cabinet maker told me never, ever to drive one without a pilot hole. After that their quality seemed to improve.  :thinking:

I don't know if you piloted them or not, but they should be.

Regards

Dave
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: smfr on January 04, 2016, 07:35:20 AM
I don't know if you piloted them or not, but they should be.

Thanks for the comments, Dave! I did have pilot holes; first one size, then a few sizes larger! I also did the soap on the threads trick.

Simon
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 04, 2016, 01:13:02 PM
Thanks for the update Simon, good to see you back on the project. That base is beautiful and the chocolate with cream pin striping would be a nice choice I think.

Bill
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Don1966 on January 04, 2016, 01:52:46 PM
Simon glad to see you back on this impressive engine built. I have been waiting to see it complete bud. Nice choice for the base.

Don
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: kvom on January 04, 2016, 03:48:48 PM
I had lost track of your progress.  Glad to see it back in play.

On mine I found that the crosshead slides needed to be precisely aligned for smooth motion.  Since I had machined them at the same time as everything else on the casting being straight was not an issue, but the width and centering of the bottom of the crosshead itself needed shaving to get precisely centered on the bores.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 05, 2016, 12:15:19 AM
I had lost track of your progress.  Glad to see it back in play.

Same here.

Always happy to see you at work play.
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on January 05, 2016, 12:55:38 AM
Yes, nice to see progress on this interesting and beautiful engine.
I do understand about other things getting in the way of projects.

Dave
Title: Re: Muncaster's Joys Valve Engine
Post by: tvoght on January 05, 2016, 04:14:38 AM
Really good to see an update. The rosewood is fantastic.

--Tim