Model Engine Maker

Engines => From Plans => Topic started by: b.lindsey on January 11, 2013, 02:09:39 PM

Title: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 11, 2013, 02:09:39 PM
Even while still working on the Briggs engine, I had occasion to meet via email and through another forum a gentleman by the name of Larry DuFour. It was Larry's father who had spent years researching Charles Taylor as well as the Wright Brothers and co-authored the book Charles E. Taylor: 1868-1956 The Wright Brothers Mechanician. At the same time Larry had access to copies of the engine drawings commissioned by the National  Air and Space Museum and graciously offered to make copies of these for me for the purpose of making a model of this engine in 1/4 scale.

The process of making the working model drawings has now begun and the first few chips made and I hope to document the build here on MEM. 

This is not the first such model made however. Another 1/4 scale model shown here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/15794235@N06/5338320658/in/set-72157602933346098/ was build By Lloyd Butler of Ohio sometime during the 1980's.  In addition a full size replica was built prior to the centenial anniversary of the Wright Brothers first flight at Kitty Hawk, NC and can be seen here in in a short you tube video: OsPB-0QPLDI

There are many unusual features to this engine including: 1) One of the first uses of an aluminum casting for an engine crankcase (presumably to lighten the weight), 2) The use of igniters in each cylinder (spark plugs of the time were not seen as reliable enough), 3) lack of any type of carburetor, 4) Tubular connecting rods (again for weight savings I assume), and 5) combustion chambers fitted onto the ends of the cylinders rather than an integral part of them.

In 1903 of course, this was all "new ground" at least so far a adapting an IC engine to powered flight. At the same time, and given the Wright Bros. underlying business of bicycle making, many of the chains, sprockets, and thread types were gleaned from what they had available in the bicycle shop. The wonder of this engine is that Charles Taylor built it in in about 10 weeks, in time for the brothers to ship the airframe and engine from Dayton, Ohio to North Carolina's outer banks where the first flight took place when weather conditions were more favorable.

With that as some of the background, so begins another journey in model engineering and one which will no doubt be filled with new challenges. As much as possible, I hope to be faithful to the original design and materials though certain compromises will be made as required of necessity. The crankcase will be aluminum but not cast for example. The basics of the model will be: 4 cylinders in a horizontal configuration, 1" bore and stroke.

More to follow.....

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 11, 2013, 03:22:33 PM
I began with some of the more straightforward parts like the fuel tank which was mounted on one of the wing struts and fed via gravity to the engine below. The design was a bit odd in that there is an inner cartridge which fits into the outer casing. the drips down through the funnel end to a petcock valve and then to the engine.  After making these, the single hole in the bottom of the cartridge is not condusive to the flow of fuel since there is no vent hole in the top end. This is something that will have to be added in order for fuel to flow properly. Still to be made and added to this small sub-assembly are a handle for the top of the cartridge to lift it out or insert it into the outer casing, as well as clips on the side and hangers which would have been used to attach the whole thing to the wing strut. Its a meager beginning but a start none the less :)

Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 11, 2013, 03:38:19 PM
The second part thus far was the cast iron flywheel which as can be seen in the drawing has only a .047" cross section at the thinnest point.  I fudged a bit here and left it closer to .056" or so just to give it a tad more meat and strength. The pictures show it just machined so it will need a bit of sanding/polishing as well as a 1/16" keyway added to the bore as soon as I get a broach and bushing.

That's it for now...the next part will be making one of the four combustions chambers which screw onto the ends of the cylinders and also incorporate the valves and cages for both the intake (top) and exhaust (bottom) as well as the igniter fixed contact and the arm and lever for the moving contact...all in a space 1.25" high and less than .750" in diameter.  If that can be done then the whole project can proceed, but the combustion chambers are a central and critical feature of the engine and scaling down the threads (and everything else for that matter) is going to be a challenge for these aging eyes!!
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Don1966 on January 11, 2013, 03:50:53 PM
Bill that sounds like a fascinating journey and I will be standing by you from here on, no matter how long it takes.

Don
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: NickG on January 11, 2013, 04:33:56 PM
Sounds really interesting this Bill, I'll certainly be watching!  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Jo on January 11, 2013, 04:41:02 PM
Interesting, I will be reading and watching with great interest 8)

If any one is interested NASA did an animated computer reproduction: http://wright.nasa.gov/airplane/eng03.html

Jo
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 11, 2013, 04:59:40 PM
Thanks Nick and Jo.  Jo, the NASA link has been useful on several occasions in working on the drawings so thanks for posting that as well.

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: tvoght on January 11, 2013, 06:15:22 PM
Extremely interesting. I'm here watching Bill. Thanks Jo for the NASA link!

--Tim

Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 11, 2013, 06:23:57 PM
Thanks Tim...if you also look down the page that Jo linked to there is a link to "Another Page"  that provides even more info. and additional animations.

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on January 11, 2013, 07:20:45 PM
Bill, being a liscensed pilot and a big Harley nut "1903 does it for me" I will be drooling : : :P all over this one. You know what is funny is every time we think we can't do something or have to wait for the UPS truck we should think about these guys.
Eric
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: ScroungerLee on January 11, 2013, 08:28:22 PM
What an interesting project.  Looking forward to following it.
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 11, 2013, 08:43:48 PM
You got that right Eric!!  Thanks for checking in also Lee. I'll try to keep some steady progress going on this one.

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: vcutajar on January 11, 2013, 11:37:19 PM
Bill

Looks like this is going to be interesting.  Will be following you along.

Vince
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 12, 2013, 12:14:54 AM
Caught this thread at work and couldn't wait to get home.

"I want to see! I want to see!"

Looking forward to this build.
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 12, 2013, 01:03:23 AM
Thanks Vince and Zee. Its not what i would call an attractine engine...not like the spinster project...more like a let's see if i can do this kind of thing...and i figure the eye doc can probably use the business which he will likely get given the size of many of the parts.

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 14, 2013, 12:11:54 PM
As noted in a previous post, the smallish (for me at least) combustion chambers I see as the make or break part of the project. If these can be done successfully, the the project will continue. The current plan is to make one complete combustion chamber including the valves, valve cages and igniter parts and the to access the viability of that in 1/4 scale. Phase one of the plan was to make the combustion chamber housing. The original part was cast iron, likely from a casting, and I wanted to try and replicate this in the same material. This is shown in the pictures below.  Just this much (and its not finished yet) required two full afternoons of shop time. What remains if to thread both ends 5/8"-40 for the valve cage retainer rings, taper turn the protruding portion to make the spigot that will attach to the end og the cylinder and thread it 1/2"-40, tap the port holes for the igniter terminals and enlarge the bore in the center part of the chamber where the combustion will take place.

As shown in the pictures, all of the operations were done in the four jaw chuck, and only after this was all done was the part removed, turned around and the opposite end turned down to the required diameter. Fortunately the 4 jaw chuck can be removed from the lathe and attached to the vertically oriented roatary table on the mill which kept everything concentric.

The pictures below show:

1) The raw CI stock chucked on the lathe and centered on a previously drilled 1/2" bore for one end to be turned to the finished diamemter.
2)The various counterbores for the valve cage, retainer ring, etc. (Chuck removed to show this better).
3)Turning the center portion to remove as much stock a possible.
4) The part and chuck mounted in the RT vertically to square up the four sides and to round the back side opposite the spigot (thought this is not shown).
5) Milling the six port holes for the exhaust to exit on the bottom end of the chamber.
6) Drilling the holes for the two igniter terminals which remain to be tapped.



Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 14, 2013, 12:21:17 PM
After this was done some filing and finishing on fine grit paper cleaned things up and polished the machined surfaces better than I had expected. So far, so good, though I am still concerned as to the threading of the ends and spigot since the length of these threads is quite shallow (.078") for the valve cage retainers and slightly more than that for the spigot which will attach the whole thing to the cylinder end. Several lessons were learned in the process which will hopefully cut some machining time from the remaining three housings, but again, I want to finish one complete combustion chamber in 1/4 scale includin the valves, cages, springs, and igniter parts to see if this can be done in this scale (or rather if I can do it) with a reasonable chance of success. So stay tuned.

The few pictures below show the semi-finished housing as it stands now.

Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 14, 2013, 12:28:04 PM
The attached .pdf file of the housing may make some of the above clearer I hope.

Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: gbritnell on January 14, 2013, 01:13:04 PM
Hi Bill,
Great work so far.  Long before there were dedicated engineering shows the only place a fellow could display his handiwork was at the local farm and antique engine shows. Living in northern Ohio and not far from Norwalk I met Lloyd 'Jim' Butler. He like the rest of us had a collection of hit and miss engines and he would pick up unique engines along the way. He had his flying license but had quit by the time I met him due to health problems, which only got worse. I remember when he started the Wright engine and saw it finished at NAMES one year but I never saw it run. I lost track of him as he quit going to the shows and then one of our fellow modelers from the area said that he had passed.
As far as threading your cylinders why not try the approach that I did when I made the radial engine. Make a manual crank handle for whatever lathe you are using and turn it by hand. That way you can sneak up against a shoulder without worrying about over-cutting. It takes a little longer but works out great. That is unless you have a lathe that will kick out at the same spot every time.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 14, 2013, 01:39:04 PM
George, thank for that information about Mr. Butler. I am hoping that at some point he got his engine to run if only to prove that it can be done in 1/4 scale. Even if not though, his model as shown in that link I posted at the outset is a real beauty.

As to the threading I think you are right and since most of this smaller work will be done on the Sherline lathe I am planning to order the threading attachment which does in fact have a hand wheel as you describe and comes with the various change gears needed to cut up to 80 tpi as i recall.  The thread lengths are so shallow in most places that even a bottoming  tap would not be sufficient and given some of the odd sizes (and the fact that other components have both RH and LH threads) the Sherline attachment is by far more cost effective and can be used for other things later on as well. Now I will just need to grind (as best as I can figure out now) a threading bit from 1/16" square stock, flattened on one side so as to get right up to the shoulder as you say...and a holder for said bit.

As our resident "master of miniature" things, I may be picking your brain some more in the days to come as well.

BIll
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: vcutajar on January 14, 2013, 02:54:31 PM
Bill, are you making the drawings yourself?  Lookong forward to your next build installment.

Vince
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on January 14, 2013, 02:57:34 PM
Bill-

What I've found to be the hardest part of making really small stuff is holding it.  That's the biggest challenge.  Machining it isn't bad.  Establish a datum and come off of it with the dials.  If you try to do it with your eyes and scribe lines it becomes very difficult.  For lathe parts I use a carriage stop that I stop the carriage feed just short of and finish up to by hand.  I also set the compound parallel to the ways and use it's dial to adjust the length of the cut relative to the stop.  For example, if you reach the stop and the part measures .005 short from the face to a shoulder, dial the compound .005 and the length will be correct.

It's analogous to flying at night by instruments.  The dials are your friends.  (Better friends are DROs!)

You have much better skills then I; you'll have no problems machinig the small parts.

-Bob
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 14, 2013, 04:05:13 PM
Thanks Vince and Bob. I rarely sribe lines (read virtually never!) but rather measure and then use the dials which even on the Sherline equipment I have found to be very reliable. DRO's are great and I have those on the large machines at work but am not crazy about Sherlines DRO system and much prefer glass or similar scales to their optical wheel system especially for the price.

Vince...I am making the 1/4 scale drawings myself from the full sized plans commissioned by the National Air & Space Museum which I noted at the outset. The problem is that not everything will scale down perfectly (such as some of the thread sizes) so some liscense and/or judgement has to be made at times. I find that if I work from my own drawings, many if not most of the errors or omissions will show up so I can correct them as I go along.  I did the same thing with the Briggs build.

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on January 14, 2013, 05:20:19 PM
Bill, when you first mentioned threading I was thinking about a die and shallow shoulder,but, I re-read and it's the internal thread.  Could you take your 1/16 square stock and cut the correct thread profile,face square, harden a little and "tap" or maybe just cut a bottom tap at near full thrd. dia. I'm new at this and just trying to figure what won't work.
Eric
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: gbritnell on January 14, 2013, 05:56:30 PM
Bill,
If I may answer Eric's question? The problem with tapping shallow holes is twofold. The first thing is trying to get enough thread started to follow up with a bottom or ground off tap. The second thing is even if you get enough of a start when you put in the bottom or ground off tap and start turning it you virtually have no 'feel' of how it's cutting and more times than not you will actually cut out the existing threads by over torquing the tap. For shallow threads I always use my hand crank. That way you can go right up against a shoulder and you can feel when to stop.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 14, 2013, 05:57:38 PM
Eric, the best solution will be to single point the threads both internal and external. I am coming up with so many odd non-standard sizes like 1/2"-40, 5/8"-40 etc. that to modify existing taps would be painfully expensive. The attachment  for the Sherline will handle both LH and RH threads. The reason for the 1/16" size of the threading bit is simply to get into the smaller spaces.  At 40 tpi, the threads don't have to be that deep, and as George noted, doing it by a hand crank on the spindle will allow more control and the ability to sneak up right to the shoulder without going beyond. Sounds good in theory at least. I will post pictures if it works out as I hope.

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 14, 2013, 06:00:36 PM
Sorry George, I was typing at the same time, but your points are very valid too. I still use taps and dies when I have them and the job allows for them, but you have convinced me of the merits of the hand crank for these particular applications and that fortunately plays right into the design of the available Sherline attachment.

Bill

EDIT:  Keep in mind that even at 40 tpi, the length of most of these internal threads will only allow for 3-4 threads...maybe 5 if i'm lucky in places. Not a lot of holding power which worries me somewhat.
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on January 14, 2013, 07:55:42 PM
Bill-

This something to consider for the internal threading- a circular form tool.  I stumbled across some punches for die sets at a yard sale once and bought them.  Years later I needed to cut a 5/16-32 internal thread.  I didn't have the tap and the project needed to get done that day.  After brainstorming, I decided to chuck one up of the punches and try a carbide tool on it.  Much to my surprise the carbide cut it.  I set the compound for one side and then the other and machined a 60 degree form.  I then ground it to 1/2 the dia. of the form and honed it.  The only other thing  I did was to make a split bushing so my 3/8 dia boring bar holder could hold the .147 dia shank. 

The tool very worked well.  However, I've only used it that day on aluminum.

I would think that a similar tool out of tool steel would work if properly hardend and tempered.

For size- The dia. of the form is .230 and the shank is .147.  The .147 is what the punch was ground to when I bought it.  If I needed to get in tight like you, I would grind or machine the face back.

-Bob
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: steamer on January 14, 2013, 08:11:08 PM
YES!

That works very well for single pointing....SB has one to make in their project book.

Dave
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 14, 2013, 08:22:30 PM
That could certainly work and since the holes needing threading are not that small the shank could even be more robust (say .250" or even .375") almost all the way up to the cutting edge for more rigidity.

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on January 14, 2013, 08:40:09 PM
Bill-

Absolutely make it as rigid as you need.  All I had at the time was a 3/8 boring bar and needed to thread 5/16-32.  I used what I had on hand since I had an hour to make the finished part.

-Bob
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Bearcar1 on January 15, 2013, 02:30:05 AM
Sorry to have joined the party so late Bill, looks as if this one is going to be a real doozy. No doubt a long thread that will keep us entertained for quite some time. Best of luck and I'll certainly be watching as you progress.  :ThumbsUp:


BC1
Jim
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: swilliams on January 15, 2013, 10:18:17 AM
This is really interesting Bill

Are these shallow threads a feature from the original? Do you think they would have also done the threads on a lathe on the original and had similar issues?

Steve
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 15, 2013, 11:21:02 AM
Thanks for checking in Jim and Steve. Yes the threads are the same on the full size engine only 4 times larger in diameter. I can scale the diameters closely enough but if the original tpi's were in the ranges of 32-40 tpi (and many were) its a bit harder to scale those which would be in the 128-160 tpi range. I think ( and feel free to chime in with opinions) that anything above about 40 tpi in cast iron is going to result in a thread cross section too shallow to provide much strength. So the trade off becomes fewer threads engaging vs. thread strength. I would assume that they cut many of the original threads on the lathe available to them in the bicycle shop.  We have to  also keep in mind that this engine, though historic, never ran very much at all...I think only for 3-4 "flights," the longest of which was 59 seconds...so even with starting and warm up time the run duration was likely less than 3 minutes.  After the first few original flights with the 1903 engine, they converted to a more traditional vertical cylinder arrangement in subsequent engines.

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: steamer on January 15, 2013, 11:26:34 AM
Besides the build...I'm enjoying the history lesson too!

Keep it coming Bill!

As far as thread holding...it might be worth a few experiments in a piece of iron as to what the "limit" would be in cast iron...and I mean good stuff like Durabar.     It might hold better than you think...and a fine thread here or there wouldn't be the end of the world if it holds well and solves some other problems...

Just thinking out loud.....

Dave
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 15, 2013, 11:31:17 AM
Good point Dave, and I think the threading attachment will allow me to go up to 80 tpi...ordered that yesterday btw.

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: gbritnell on January 15, 2013, 12:58:43 PM
Hi Bill,
Pardon me for posting so many pictures. It's not my intent to hijack your thread but these pictures were posted elsewhere when I was building my radial. They show the threading that I did when I made the heads and cylinders for my radial. The thread is .75-40. The heads are aluminum and the cylinders are 12L. Having made many parts from Durabar iron I wouldn't be afraid to thread them and trust the strength. Once I got my parts made I chucked the cylinders in a collet, threaded on the head and tightened it with an adjustable wrench and quite tightly I might add.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 15, 2013, 01:08:53 PM
George, that is quite helpful to me and I am sure others, and is certainly pertinent to the discussion at hand. I see that you had only a few threads engaging also which helps dispell my concerns a lot. As Dave noted, I will play around with some scraps first both to learn the threading attachment and to run some trials as to what will work best in my particular situation. Please feel free to jump in at any time!!

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Maryak on January 15, 2013, 11:36:29 PM
Just a comment about thread strength. If you think of a nut and bolt then the size/no. of threads engaged by the nut gives the required strength. What I'm trying to say is that a stud requires no more threads engaged than would be engaged by a nut for said stud.

Best Regards
Bob
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 16, 2013, 12:26:45 AM
Bob, that is crrtainly true and no doubt factored into standard nut sizes. What i have here in thread lengths significantly shorter than a nut would be for the given dia. and thread pitch.

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 18, 2013, 02:00:52 PM
Nothing to post in the way of pictures yet but got notification yesterday that Big Brown was delivering two parcels, the threading attachment from Sherline and some bits and pieces from MSC. They were calling for possible snow last night so I stopped by the grocery on the way home, got home, and was starting dinner when the power went out. Seemed odd since it was just raining but after a bit I looked up the road only to see a large tree whose roots had succombed to the saturated ground and fallen directly across the road taking the power with it. Since it is a one street subdivision, I knew I could kiss Big Brown goodbye for the night. AH well, they can retry today along with another parcel from speedy metals which contains the materials I need for the crankshaft. Hopefully the weekend will be more productive. We never did get the snow.  :rant:

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 18, 2013, 10:12:32 PM
Truly a bummer. No Big Brown, no electric, no TV, no lathe! And no snow to justify it all.
You must have gotten power back since then...unless you're at work.
Hope all is well.
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on January 18, 2013, 10:49:32 PM
Should be getting home any time now. Have they been there, have they been there? Almost like shopping with the wife: you're spending the money, but, at least here I really like what you're buying.
Eric
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: BillTodd on January 18, 2013, 11:11:39 PM
http://www.gizmology.net/nutsbolts.htm

strain taken be each thread (turn)
Thread    %    %Sum
1          34%    34%
2         23%    55%
3         16%    71%
4         11%    82%
5         9%    91%
6         7%    98%

Just a comment about thread strength. If you think of a nut and bolt then the size/no. of threads engaged by the nut gives the required strength. What I'm trying to say is that a stud requires no more threads engaged than would be engaged by a nut for said stud.

Best Regards
Bob
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Don1966 on January 18, 2013, 11:40:33 PM
Bill I hate to heard that you have some dead time , with no brown and no electricity. Such a bummer just when you really get into a project, don't that just put a stitch in you side? Oh! Well it could be worst. Just waiting for a fix on your engine Bill.

Don
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 19, 2013, 12:04:33 AM
Good news...Big Brown arrived...the weekend is looking good !!

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on January 19, 2013, 01:38:56 AM
Hi Bill

I'm kind of jumping in here a little late as well; but wow! what a cool project. I will be following along with your journey down the Wright Brothers path.

Thanks for sharing,
Dave
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 19, 2013, 01:43:31 AM
Thanks Dave, you are not late at all, its just getting started...it may take a while but there is LOTS to go and plenty of challenges ahead too!!

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 22, 2013, 01:23:17 AM
Well, it was a good weekend, just not terribly productive in the shop as some other things needed doing like fixing the mailboxwhose post had rusted completely through and it just fell over!!  One of the little projects in the shop was inspired by a picture in one of Thayer's posts...a simple mod to the Sherline vise.  The socket head cap screw was replaced with a molded wing nut and some 10-32 threaded rod, a dab of loctite and a locknut to bear against the swivel insert in the vise. This will save me lots of time as I am bad about dropping the t-handle hex wrench used to tighten the SHCS previously (see photo 1)  With that brief aside, I did get a little more done on the face of the combustion chamber, and made one of the fixed terminal insert bushings that screws into the side of the chamber. These are shown in the other photos. Since the threading attachment is not a quick changeover on the lathe trials of that will wait until somme other lathe operations are done first. Tomorrow I will be cutting pieces for the crankshaft and beginning fabrication of that.

Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: steamer on January 22, 2013, 01:29:05 AM
Wow Bill....I know how big that headstock is! :o


That's small!..... :praise2: :praise2:

Dave
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 22, 2013, 01:41:27 AM
It is for sure Dave, and the other parts of the igniter, valve cages, and valves,springs, and keepers are even smaller...maybe I am developing masochistic tendencies or something  :shrug:

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Don1966 on January 22, 2013, 01:53:34 AM
Hi Bill, that is some bit of work. I use my visor are I wouldn't be able to see them. Still following you with great interest.

Don
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on January 22, 2013, 02:16:44 AM
Looks good Bill. 

Small is a relative term.  One day you'll be working on a part and all the small parts for this build  will seem big.  It's a state of mind. :insane:

This is a very interesting build.

-Bob 
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 22, 2013, 02:26:53 AM
Wow Bill....I know how big that headstock is! :o
That's small!..... :praise2: :praise2:

And I know (think) how big that finger is.

That's small work. Looking good!
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: swilliams on January 22, 2013, 07:40:17 AM
It's hard to make small parts with big fingers  ;)

Looking forward to the next instalment Bill

Steve
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Jo on January 22, 2013, 07:43:19 AM
It's hard to make small parts with big fingers  ;)

It gets hard once it gets parted off and that little man in the workshop thinks it is another trinklet to add to his collection :ShakeHead:.

Jo
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: swilliams on January 22, 2013, 08:23:20 AM
Indeed!
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on February 04, 2013, 01:40:09 PM
Haven't had much to post progress wise lately, but have made a start (after a few false starts) on the built up crankshaft. The rather crude raw components are shown in the first picture below. The web blanks were then all milled to size and the two 5/16" holes drilled and reamed in each. The original design calls for the ends to be radiused which is shown in photo 2. All 8 pieces were slipped onto a length of 5/16" drill rod with a secondary rod slipped into the other holes to maintain alignment. Once the first end was done the set up was just reversed to do the other end. The 8 web pieces are shown in photo 3 ready for asembly. The crank pin was loctited into one side of the web, left to cure  (photo 4), and then into the other web using a short piece of 5/16 drill rod again in the free holes to keep the two webs parallel to each other. At the end of that photo 5 shows the 4 cranks.  Tonight I will put in the lengths of 5/16" drill rod  which will space the 4 cranks. The final two end pieces have yet to be made and will require some threading and keyway cutting for the flywheel and timing gear sprockets. All of this i do on a 15"x24"x 1" thick piece of blanchard ground steel plate to hopefully keep everything flat. Once this part of the assembly is all complete each of the joints will be pinned with small taper pins or a 1/16" dowel pin. SOrry the photos aren't as clear as I would like but should convey the process at least.


Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: propforward on February 04, 2013, 03:58:11 PM
This is a fascinating build. The quality of these parts is superb. Great stuff - I am particularly interested in your approach on the crankshaft. I shall keep following along. The ingenuity displayed in threads like this is wonderful.
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 04, 2013, 10:39:15 PM
Watching closely and intensely.
I'm very interested in this engine.
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on February 05, 2013, 12:51:19 AM
Thanks Prop amd Zee.  I need to pick up the pace some to keep the interest going, i know, but its a complicated little thing in many ways. Thanks for checking in!!

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on February 05, 2013, 12:58:21 AM
Cool another update to the 1903; it is going to be fun watching this one take shape.

Dave
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on February 05, 2013, 01:00:31 AM
Lets hope so Dave, as opposed to an exercise in futility!!

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on February 05, 2013, 01:19:29 AM
Well what seems to be the hold up here pal. Theys ain't no great big parts or nothing. I sho am glad youns ain't building one em air catypiller thangs :lolb: :lolb: :ROFL: :lolb:
I check in either in early am or on my way to bed. You keep this one going. I can't wait to see that prop spin, and I don't even have the least little Zee doubt it will. Thought bout getting Marv to to an airframe?

Great work
Eric
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Don1966 on February 05, 2013, 01:20:03 AM
Looking good Bill, I like the idea of turning the crank throws together and drilling together. Looks like the little Gremlin has been in your shop also.
following you with great interest here Bill.

Don
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on February 05, 2013, 01:49:16 AM
Actually Don the  web parts were all drilled individually at work using the DRO to set the hole ctc distance carefully. Even with that the two sets of holes lined up amazingly well. I figure some slight variations in other areas won't have much if any effect. Tonight i got the three centerline spacer pieces installed into three or the crank assemblies. Tomorrow after the loctite sets (or goes off as our UK friends say) the four cranks will all be joined  leaving just the two end pieces to go.

Thanks for the ihterest guys!!

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Bearcar1 on February 05, 2013, 03:26:15 AM
Simply amazing Bill. Your quality of build and the patience to do so is evident. I can't wait to see the end result no matter how long it should take to happen. This rare piece of aviation history is going to be so cool when you are finished.


BC1
Jim
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: swilliams on February 05, 2013, 03:32:49 AM
Great to see more action here Bill. It's such a great project!

Steve
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on February 05, 2013, 12:26:16 PM
Bill, I hope you know I was just poking a little fun last night. I couldn't sleep so this morning about two I reread the thread. This is some seriously small stuff. Don't worry about the pace, we ain't paying you. And as far as the interest part, that's gonna be here in anything you do on this forum. It was the smaller scale stuff that started me in this addiction and this is keeping my "boiler stoked". You keep up the good work and "I'll be check'n in on ya now ya hear"

PS How bout an IC pocket watch? Back case for fuel tank; fill it like a butane lighter; flywheel where the crown should be :cheers: :slap:

Eric
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on February 05, 2013, 01:22:32 PM
Thanks Jim, Steve, and Eric.  And yes Eric, I took your comments in the spirit they were intended :)  I speak redneck too ya know :Lol:  As to the IC pocket watch, why not must make it a just make it a sterling cycle wristwatch running off the heat of one's wrist. I think I'll leave that to George though...he's far better at the really really small stuff!!

P.S. Hope you are making good progress on digging out and rebuilding over there.

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on February 06, 2013, 07:44:44 PM
A little more done on the crankshaft, basically the main part of it is finished. After assembling the 4 crank pieces together along the central axis and letting that all cure, I began drilling and reaming for the 16 total (14 so far) #6/0 taper pins through each connection as shown in photo 1.  Once each of the joints was pinned, I used the belt sander to grind them down near flush, then a needle file to get even closer and then some 320 grit paper on a flat plate to even things out even more. Now both sides lay perfectly flat on a surface plate as I had hoped. The last picture is just for scale.  Now the two end pieced need to be cut and machined...one end for the flywheel and propellerl sprockets, and the other for the cam sprocket.

Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: stevehuckss396 on February 06, 2013, 08:27:50 PM
That looks super nice. I have tried to make a multi-piece crank and it didn't do much of anything perfectly. Especially lay flat on a surface. Great job.
Title: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: ths on February 06, 2013, 10:45:01 PM
Hi Bill,

Firstly, lovely work, and a very enjoyable thread.

Secondly, I can't quite see how you were able to 'turn' the radii on the crank webs in one of the photos in post 58. The webs are shown set up on the lathe, but I can't see how they can do a complete rotation. I'm wondering if they were planed towards the chuck. Perhaps I'm just missing the bleeding obvious!

Cheers, Hugh.
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: swilliams on February 06, 2013, 11:21:48 PM
Looking great Bill. Do you know if the original had a built up crank? Would be pretty challenging to carve that out from the solid.

Steve
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 06, 2013, 11:39:00 PM
Pretty amazing Bill.
Pretty small too!
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on February 07, 2013, 12:24:09 AM
Steve...thanks. I wimped out on making it from one piece, just felt i could be more accurate with a built up one and so far am pleased with the result.

Steve (swilliams)...the original was i assume made from one solid piece, which is probably the preferred method for overall strength.

Zee...thanks ...this is one of the bigger pieces....lol

Hugh....i will try to explain separately.

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on February 07, 2013, 12:32:20 AM
Hugh....the radius on the end of each crank web is measured from the hole farthest away from that edge.  In the picture showing the webs gang mounted on the lathe one edge has already had the radius cut. In that photo i was cutting the radius on the opposite end, so in effect the toolbit was well away from the spindle (chuck) centerline.  Does that help any?

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Don1966 on February 07, 2013, 12:38:45 AM
Wow! Bill that is amazing to get it straight from multi pieces. Looking good Bud.

Don
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on February 07, 2013, 12:48:10 AM
Hi Don, it was close to start with, probably within .005" from corner to corner. But after pinning it together and to sand the taper pins totally flush, it brought it into a really flat state. I was very pleasantly surprised in fact. It would have worked even being out slightly, but its now one less thing to fret over.

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on February 07, 2013, 01:15:51 AM
Well I guess if ya couldn't turn it as one piece, this'll probably do. :LittleDevil: :ROFL: :lolb:
Bill that is something. First glance it looked like a crank from a straight 8 Buick. What do the kids say: sweeeeet!!!!

Eric
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on February 07, 2013, 01:16:41 AM
Nice job on the crankshaft Bill.

Dave
Title: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: ths on February 07, 2013, 12:57:11 PM
Thanks for that Bill, one of those things that's perfectly obvious when pointed out so nicely.

Hugh.
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: petertha on February 10, 2013, 02:26:31 AM
I began drilling and reaming for the 16 total (14 so far) #6/0 taper pins through each connection as shown in photo 1.  Once each of the joints was pinned, I used the belt sander to grind them down near flush...

That is so neat. Can you elaborate on this pinning procedure. It seems so useful but I have never seen/used tapered pins or reamers.
 
- when you say drill, it is a conventional drill just undersized & only the reamer is tapered? Or is the drill special too?

- where do you obtain pins & reamers like this?

- and to permanently set the pins in place, do you use locktite or?
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on February 10, 2013, 06:17:18 PM
Peter, if memory serves, i drilled through with a #51 drill, then halfway through with a #50 drill so the reamer wouldn't have as much to remove on the larger end. Just conventional drills. The reamer is only about 2 1/2 inches long and that was done by hand to "feel" it better.  Once the holes appeared to be tapered throughout the depth of the hole, the pins were inserted and seated with a few taps of a small ball pein hammer. No more running than this engine will see,  i doubt the pins will ever come out on their own. Both the pins and reamer i got from MSC as i recall back when i was working on the Briggs engine. Its crankshaft was made the same way but for a single cylinder only.

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Don1966 on February 23, 2013, 02:55:33 PM
Hi Bill, how you making out bud any progress?

Don
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on February 23, 2013, 03:41:02 PM
Not much to report at the moment Don. Some travel and work have things slowed down lately. Hope to get some shop time this weekend.

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on February 23, 2013, 04:56:39 PM
Bill, amazing how that stuff gets in the way of us having fun. Hope you get back at it. This may be one of my favorites. Thanks for the ear, by the way. Got the popcorn and a  :DrinkPint: so, when you have time I'll be here. :cheers:

Yo Redneck,
Eric
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 27, 2016, 08:52:11 PM
Talk about an old thread, this one is now nearly three years since I last posted. Not that it  will arise again quite yet, but the few parts already completed have been quietly laying on the shelf in plain sight and nagging me to get this project back on the front burner. Not to worry, both the Vickie and Parsell & Weed will be finished first since I obviously don't multitask very well, but you guys keep raising the bar so high with your "Monitor" builds and the many other masterpieces I see going on here, that I need to get back into the game so to speak.

One of the things I have been pondering during the hiatus is the Magneto. Now the Wright Bros, did not actually make the magneto but rather bought it from the Dayton Electric Company (which later became a wholly owned subsidiary of W.W. Grainger which still uses the Dayton brand extensively. However, the name plate on the magneto (I assume from historical examination) has the following information:

The Miller Kno-Block
Electric Mfg. Co.
South Bend, Ind.

The particulars on the nameplate say speed: 2500 rpm, 4 Amps, and 10 Volts. It is also important to note that the ignition system of the 1903 engine  used a system of breaking points within the combustion head rather than spark plugs. These were similar I suppose to an igniter on a hit and miss engine. I am also attaching a .pdf document which better described this system...you guys all know I don't do sparky parts!!  so the questions at hand is (and directed to you electrically proficient guys) how much voltage, amperage would be needed and is there any chance that this could be done at 1/4 scale of the original.  Fortunately the plans I have do include a sheet where the magneto was dissected and drawn. Basically it is three horseshoe magnets placed back to back, and armature running between them and then two coils, one of which surrounds each set of permanent magnet legs and sit just above the armature and its supports. The whole thing was driven by a driving disc running against the flywheel. If there is a chance this could work then I will have more questions and can try and scan the various sections of the drawing I have of it. If the collective feeling is that it wouldn't work then I can still make a dummy to scale and provide power in some other way, but it would sure be nice to make it historically accurate even in this regard.

All ideas and help greatly appreciated!!

Oops, the file noted above isn't a .pdf, but rather can be accessed through the following link:

http://wright.nasa.gov/airplane/elecsys.html

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: crueby on April 27, 2016, 09:01:54 PM
Really hope you get back on this one full time again, I remember following it 3 years ago (really that long? Wow)
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: vcutajar on April 27, 2016, 09:10:03 PM
Sorry, can't help with the magneto but looking forward to the continuation of this build.

Vince
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: AOG on April 27, 2016, 10:19:51 PM
Bill, While there is theoretically no reason you can't create a viable scaled magneto particularly if you use a neodymium magnet, Your biggest problems will be spinning the magneto fast enough to get a usable voltage (the high flux density in the neodymium magnets will help with that) and the poor spark from single coil igniter type ignitions. If I were you I would set the igniters to a fixed gap (to act as a plug) and hide an electronic ignition and distributor in a fake magneto. If you really want the magneto experience you could make a minimag and hide it in the base or fake magneto.

Just my 2 cents

Tony
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 27, 2016, 10:47:22 PM
Had I remembered this, I'd have been down to visit you with a couple of spare boots some time ago.
No boot emoticon so this will have to mean what I'm saying  :stickpoke: :stickpoke: :stickpoke:
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 27, 2016, 11:29:45 PM
Thanks Tony, certainly that is an option down the road. There are MANY impediments to this thing ever working at 1/4 scale, but I guess I am stubborn enough to still give it a try.

Zee, maybe we need a guilt trip emoticon, a few of the guys in the old engine club I belong to keep asking me about this one...guess it is finally getting to me.

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Don1966 on April 27, 2016, 11:38:21 PM
Bill I am willing to assist you in making the magneto if you want. I don't really see any problem scaling it down. We could use electronic ignition, because the current required for the electronic ignition is low. You could put the small electronic ignition into a package looking like a coil. Then use the magneto to drive it, that is if you want a working one. I think it could be done...........

Don
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 27, 2016, 11:59:22 PM
Was hoping you might peek in Don. Apparently this thing worked for the brothers with the specs shown on the nameplate. This was before the days of high voltage coils I suppose, but one would still need a good spark. Let me see if I can get some decent scans of the various parts of this blueprint sheet and I will forward them to you to have a look. This engine really did have a strange and somewhat delicate ignition system from what I can tell, but it did work as history tells us. Fuel delivery to the cylinders was even stranger, almost a vapor type system with heat from the engine helping vaporize the fuel, mix it with air and suck it into the cylinders.

If anyone is interested in a good read, I would recommend this book. I read it last summer at the beach...wonderful book about the Wright Brothers by a renowned author.

http://www.amazon.com/Wright-Brothers-McCullough-May-2015-Hardcover/dp/B00XTDIC5U/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1461797686&sr=8-5&keywords=the+wright+brothers

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on April 28, 2016, 02:04:26 AM
Bill-

I have often wondered what has happened to this build.  A couple of times I thought of PMing you about.  I for one would really like to see this engine completed.  I think this is a very interesting engine.

-Bob
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Myrickman on May 01, 2016, 11:18:35 PM
Bill, stumbled into this resurrected build...way cool project. Always had much admiration for Mr. Taylor doing what he did when lightweight engines for airplanes were non-existent. I heard the wrights painted the engine cases black to hide their use of aluminum. I think you can make the igniters work in a small engine like this....think of the "behold" factor.... Agree that by hiding a small neodymium magnet motor in a facimile mag you might get enough current to fire them. Plan b would to use a hidden coil with a dummy mag. I have several multi year old engine projects in the shop...comes with the turf of being interested in too darn many things.. I'll be checking in on this one. Paul
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Admiral_dk on May 01, 2016, 11:47:06 PM
I'm not sure that it is a totally low voltage ignition - not several thousands either, but it appears to work as the "magneto" ignitions on mopeds from my youth, where the secondary coil is missing.

The "generator" coil is short-circuited before the spark is needed. This is responsible for a big current (if the poles on the generator is timed correctly to the switches. At the right time - if I remember correctly, this is just before the voltage starts to go down again and we have max current - the switch (circuit breaker on a Kettering system) opens and the collapsing magnetic field is trying to keep the flux constant, thereby inducing a voltage around some 300 volts  :zap:

On the moped there would have been a secondary coil on the same coil and those connected together would have transformed the voltage to some 10K volt for the sparkplug.

The 300 volts or so one the Wright Brothers engine would have been enough as long as the compression was low enough ....

Best wishes and good luck with the project

Per
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 01, 2016, 11:50:52 PM
Thanks for looking in Bob, Paul, and Admiral. Give me time enough to finish up the P&W and Vickie and I promise this one will be revived. May even throw in a teaser or two in the meantime...like the valve cages :)

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 02, 2016, 12:23:02 AM
Give me time enough to finish up the

I vote no. Why should we give him a break?
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 02, 2016, 02:01:31 AM
Just remember, what goes around, comes around Zee. I'll see your two  :stickpoke: :stickpoke: and raise you one  :stickpoke:   :lolb:

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 02, 2016, 02:22:57 AM
Just remember, what goes around, comes around Zee. I'll see your two  :stickpoke: :stickpoke: and raise you one  :stickpoke:   :lolb:

I'll call.  :Lol:
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: crueby on May 02, 2016, 02:23:58 AM
Just remember, what goes around, comes around Zee. I'll see your two  :stickpoke: :stickpoke: and raise you one  :stickpoke:   :lolb:

Bill

Big branch down on a tree here if you want a bigger stick to poke with!!  :stickpoke: :stickpoke: :stickpoke: :stickpoke:
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Art K on May 03, 2016, 02:31:36 AM
Bill,
You made the mistake of resurrecting this build. If you hadn't I wouldn't have known it existed, now I expect some movement on it. Sitting here with the  :popcorn: waitin for the show. :thinking: What I've seen looks good, what does the bore & stroke on this scale end up being?
Art
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: fumopuc on May 03, 2016, 05:45:32 AM
Hi Bill, that is a very interesting project in my eyes. This engine has supported a very important mile stone in the historical technical development. It will be very interesting to follow you and Don if you both will start to develop and to make the model ingnition magneto system for this engine.
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 03, 2016, 12:09:51 PM
Art, the bore and stroke are 1" x 1" or 1/4 scale of the original, with 4 cylinders. Achim, after looking at how small the scaled down version will be I am more of the opinion that the magneto will be replicated for looks only and not for function. A more foolproof (yet to be determined) electrical system will be used for actual operation. This engine has enough challenges already...no carburetor, no throttle to speak of, etc. so I am reluctant to add yet another complicating factor. Even so, the magneto will look the part and spin and such as if it were fully functional.

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 03, 2016, 12:16:34 PM
As further information, attached below are an assembly view of the magneto and a scaled down drawing of the size of the three horseshoe magnets that would be required. Dimensions are in inches.

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: fumopuc on May 03, 2016, 06:40:03 PM
Art, the bore and stroke are 1" x 1" or 1/4 scale of the original, with 4 cylinders. Achim, after looking at how small the scaled down version will be I am more of the opinion that the magneto will be replicated for looks only and not for function. A more foolproof (yet to be determined) electrical system will be used for actual operation. This engine has enough challenges already...no carburetor, no throttle to speak of, etc. so I am reluctant to add yet another complicating factor. Even so, the magneto will look the part and spin and such as if it were fully functional.

Bill
Hi Bill, whatever your way will be, it is a very interesting and extraordinary project.
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Don1966 on May 03, 2016, 08:18:25 PM
Bill looking at the drawings the U shape core is not a magnet but just a core. There are two coils that are wrapped around the U shape core and parallel to the armature forming a DC Shunt generator. The core material will have to have very good magnetic properties like alnico to work like we want or we could use laminated material. Then the laminations for the armature we can get from old transformers. The drawing don't give to much details as to the actual size except for the U shape core. I will have to see if there is more the one U shape core or not because it is only .25" thick but no width.  I may have an armature for it from an old governor control motor so it will depend on the U core used.

Don
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 03, 2016, 11:34:21 PM
Don, there are three magnets back to back. I say magnets because that is what the print says...."permanent magnets" I will try to take a photo of the side view tomorrow and post it so you can see more details.  You know I know diddly about these sparky parts so if it can be made to work then you da man for it!!! I am certainly open to the help!!

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: crueby on May 04, 2016, 12:14:18 AM
....  I may have an armature for it from an old governor control motor...

Don

Our Governor is out of control here, where do we stick the motor??!   :lolb:

Sorry, back to technical discussion. Zee has corrupted me.
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 04, 2016, 12:25:06 AM
Is that a rhetorical question Chris?? :lolb:

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Don1966 on May 04, 2016, 12:26:22 AM
Bill we must be looking at two different drawings because the one you posted show two coils connected in parallel and in parallel to the armature. The core is shown a going  through the coils. With that arrangement you don't need magnets. If you have magnets you don't need the coils.

Don
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Don1966 on May 04, 2016, 12:28:24 AM
....  I may have an armature for it from an old governor control motor...

Don

Our Governor is out of control here, where do we stick the motor??!   :lolb:

Sorry, back to technical discussion. Zee has corrupted me.
Chris we have the same problem here bud....... :lolb:

Don   8)
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 04, 2016, 12:32:23 AM
Don, I will post the side view tomorrow, the print is at work or I would do it now. That may give more info. Doesn't there have to be a magnet(s) somewhere, the side view of the armature shows wire wrapped around it too. Sorry I can't be of more help...maybe I can find a picture online of it. Sorry to be so ignorant on these things but that is the great thing about the forum, folks like you who know these things!!

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: 10KPete on May 04, 2016, 01:12:09 AM
I'm going to try to attach some links I've gathered on the subject of old ignition systems. I've been following along here and I think
I can help. Igniter type systems were around at least a decade before the Wright brothers and they surely knew about the various ones.

One thing I've not heard anything about and that's whether or not their system had a battery of some sort. It wouldn't take a big one to make a simple system.

Look through some of these:

http://www.old-engine.com/magign.htm

http://www.gasenginemagazine.com/gas-engines/valve-and-ignition-timing-of

http://www.eldensengines.com/Otherstuff/LT%20Scope%20Pictures/LT%20Scope%20Pictures.html

http://www.old-engine.com/magneto.htm

A low tension system just needs a current source (battery or magneto) a coil and the igniter points. You guys know all that anyway.

Hope I'm not wasting your time,

Pete
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 04, 2016, 01:25:43 AM
Not at all Pete. I was just looking around for a picture of the magneto. Didn't find one but one site I found did say they used a small battery to start the engine. Once running, the magneto produced enough to keep it going.

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Don1966 on May 04, 2016, 01:45:44 AM
With a side view it may be that the two coils I see are just coils and not around the U shape core or magnet and work as an igniter. With the side view we should see it more clearly.

Don
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on May 04, 2016, 02:03:49 AM
Bill we must be looking at two different drawings because the one you posted show two coils connected in parallel and in parallel to the armature. The core is shown a going  through the coils. With that arrangement you don't need magnets. If you have magnets you don't need the coils.

Don

That is odd Don, I have been wondering about this whole setup? Most low tension mags are gear driven and the armature is timed with the ignitor in the cylinder; so the points open at the peak voltage which is usually around 7 volts. The first thing I thought was how can you have a friction drive mag and keep it in time with multiple cylinders? All the flywheel friction driven mags (or generators, or are they are they alternators) that I'm familiar with only supply current to a separate low tension coil that provides the spark when the ignitor points snap open.

It would be fun to know the actual theory of operation of the original system? It will also be fun to see how you and Bill go about getting some spark to the Wright Brother's engine.

Dave
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Don1966 on May 04, 2016, 02:06:45 AM
Dave your right with a friction drive it would be hard to time the magneto ignition without an igniter coil. Timing the igniter would be the key to getting it timed correctly.

Don
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 04, 2016, 02:46:45 AM
The link I posted at the end of post #87 is one of the better explanations I have found, and also refers to the "U" shaped bits being permanent magnets. I get that the armature spinning between them inducing a flow of electricity, but what do the coils around the magnet do? Boost the volts like a coil maybe? That is where I get lost. It is definitely a friction drive on the 1903 engine too.

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Don1966 on May 04, 2016, 02:55:53 AM
Bill a coil doesn't work very good around a magnet. They would have to be separate. Being as it is a magneto it has to have magnets because without magnets it is called a dynamo. Dynamo were used for ignitions also, but to start the engines you would need a battery then it would run on the magneto or Dynamo. Start speed don't produce enough energy.
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: 10KPete on May 04, 2016, 03:00:32 AM
My understanding is that in order for the igniter to make a spark, it relies on the induction of the mag or generator coil to provide the kick when the points open, rather than a separate coil for the purpose. It seems that most of the LT systems worked that way, at least what I've seen.

I started investigating this about a year ago as I wanted an ignition system for a hit and miss that didn't require a battery or use a high tension type magneto. May be silly, but I wanted a LT mag/gen that would provide enough oomph for a spark at starting speeds. Very much like the flywheel generator on a Ford T. Yes, the Ford had buzz coils but all the juice came from the flywheel gen. and that at hand crank speeds.

Anyway, I haven't built any hardware yet but I'm convinced it can be done.

If the Wrights used a small battery, then it's a shoo-in!!

Pete

EDIT> Yeah, Don's right. It would be called a dynamo in this case.
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on May 04, 2016, 03:05:14 AM
The link I posted at the end of post #87 is one of the better explanations I have found, and also refers to the "U" shaped bits being permanent magnets. I get that the armature spinning between them inducing a flow of electricity, but what do the coils around the magnet do? Boost the volts like a coil maybe? That is where I get lost. It is definitely a friction drive on the 1903 engine too.

Bill

Bill this is the part that confuses me too; all the low tension mags I'm familiar with only have the coil as part of the armature spinning in the permanent magnets. The link really doesn't do a great job of explaining exactly how the ignition on the Wright Brother's engine works but more theory on the principals that we all understand.

Still confused  :shrug:
Dave
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Don1966 on May 04, 2016, 03:14:39 AM
Pete your right also the igniter has to be timed at the peak voltage produced by the magneto. That would be with the armature coil at half ways into the pole of the magnetic. Then it starts to decrease in intensity.
The igniter has to fire at that point to get max spark. The spike in voltage is create by the inductive kick produced when the igniter contacts open. In which case can be hundreds of Volts greater then what the magneto is designed for.

Don
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: 10KPete on May 04, 2016, 04:12:47 AM
Simple two pole dynamos are quite suitable as they produce two peaks per rev., so if those are timed with the ignitor.....
The dynamo must produce enough juice and the coil must be the right 'size', etc. I don't know how to actually design that
stuff except emperically. Hopefully one of youse guys can!

Pete
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 04, 2016, 12:28:34 PM
OK guys, here is a not so great picture of the side view and coil details. Maybe this will help some. Sorry about the poor quality but the fluorescent lights in my office and the cell phone camera don't get along well it seems.
Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: 10KPete on May 04, 2016, 02:03:22 PM
That's a 12 pole DC generator! Their small battery was used to provide initial field excitement and after it was running the field voltage was from the generator itself.

That can be done in scale, especially if you can find a small DC motor to rob for the armature. It wouldn't need to be a 12 pole,
could be a 6 or even a 4 pole and function just fine.

Pete
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Don1966 on May 04, 2016, 02:09:15 PM
Bill I see it says permanent magnet and I have really never seen any arrangement like this. The only thing I can see is that the coils serve to increase the strength of the permanent magnets and the polarity of the coil have to be correct when connected to do so. With the coils this way would probably be the only way to get a voltage spike from the magneto when the igniter is turned on.  I have never seen a magnet used this way other then in linear positioning applications and solenoid. It will be interesting to test it.
And Pete your right again and it does look like a dynamo instead of a magneto.

Don
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Roger B on May 04, 2016, 06:07:30 PM
Can you show a little more to the right of the drawing so we can see what the other end of the coil around the magnets does? Looking at Hiscox this could be a fairly typical break spark system if the coil around the magnets is used as the spark coil. These systems used a low voltage from a dynamo/generator of batteries to build up a current in a coil that was connected to the breaker in the cylinder. When the breaker opened the energy stored in the magnetic field of the coil attempted to maintain the current flow resulting in a relatively high voltage spark and ignition.
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Don1966 on May 04, 2016, 06:20:15 PM
You have to remember to Roger, that the magnetic field is still strong because of the magnet through it, because the field is always there never changing. I am still finding it hard to believe that magnets are going through the coil.

Don
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 04, 2016, 06:23:51 PM
Roger, if you go back to reply #106 and look at the Mag Assembly View I posted there as a .pdf I think it is what you are looking for. If not, let me know.

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 04, 2016, 06:31:10 PM
I guess a lot has changed since 1903 huh?

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Roger B on May 04, 2016, 06:56:15 PM
Yes that is what I was looking to see. So matching that with the NASA description the dynamo/generator is normally open circuit and feeding the coils wound around the magnet. When a cylinder is due to fire the breaker in that cylinder closes so a current builds up in the coils of the coils and the dynamo. At the firing point the breaker opens and the current tries to continue to flow resulting in a spark.

With modern magnets you could probably build a suitably scaled dynamo to achieve 10V 4A (40W), but I doubt if the stored energy would be sufficient so an additional inductor (spark coil) would be required. The breakers in the cylinder with a 1" bore would also be a challenge  ::)
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 04, 2016, 09:06:15 PM
Roger,
There is much about this that will be a challenge but to be as close to a scale model as possible I think the breakers in the combustion chamber are a must have!!  The electrical system I can fudge on a bit as needed so long as the magneto looks appropriate and to scale(working or not) but I hope to keep the engine itself as close to the original as I can.

Thanks to all of you for your input and help on this magneto thing though. I am still not giving up on it.

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Don1966 on May 04, 2016, 10:13:08 PM
Yes that is what I was looking to see. So matching that with the NASA description the dynamo/generator is normally open circuit and feeding the coils wound around the magnet. When a cylinder is due to fire the breaker in that cylinder closes so a current builds up in the coils of the coils and the dynamo. At the firing point the breaker opens and the current tries to continue to flow resulting in a spark.

With modern magnets you could probably build a suitably scaled dynamo to achieve 10V 4A (40W), but I doubt if the stored energy would be sufficient so an additional inductor (spark coil) would be required. The breakers in the cylinder with a 1" bore would also be a challenge  ::)
I believe your missing the point Roger if you do build the same Dynamo there is no reason it doesn't work like it did for the Wright brothers.

Don
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: 10KPete on May 05, 2016, 05:50:44 AM
Been studying that drawing with a magnifying glass on my 'puter screen. Very near the top of the view it says that 3 permanent magnets
are required.

Looking at the drawing of the label that is on the 'magneto', near the bottom of the view, I see what looks like 2600 RPM and 10 volts
output.

The wire coils that go around the magnets are called out as, I think, 126 turns of #18 wire. One coil wound RH and one LH.

I would sure like to see the rest of the electrical info on this system. It has me completely intrigued and I believe that it can be scaled perfectly. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I gather the model would be 1/4 of the full size?? And 1" bore?

Sorry to butt in like this,
Pete
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Roger B on May 05, 2016, 08:13:54 AM
Hi Don, I may well be thinking in the wrong way but this was my logic:

A certain amount of energy is required to ignite the mixture (keeping the energy below this level is the principle used for intrinsically safe electrical equipment for use in explosive/flammable areas). In a conventional ignition systems this energy is stored in the magnetic field in the coil until it is released by breaking the circuit. In a CDI system it is stored in the electric field of a capacitor charged up to a suitable voltage. Reducing the size of the dynamo will reduce the inductance (less iron/steel) and hence the amount of energy stored. 1/4 scale may be ok, it may be to small  :headscratch: If it is too small adding additional inductance (spark coil) should solve the problem.

I have attached a page from Gas, Gasoline and Oil Engines by Gardner D Hiscox showing a system where a spark coil is required when starting/running with batteries but the inductance of the Magneto/Dynamo is sufficient when running on that.
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Don1966 on May 05, 2016, 02:27:33 PM
Roger I spent 50 yrs working with Electronic and Electrical I know how things work. If you build a 10V 4A magneto it would work the same as it did back then. Your producing the same energy..........


Don
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: GailinNM on May 06, 2016, 04:05:24 PM
This is another fine and challenging project for you Bill.
I don't think that this link has been posted but I could have missed it. It is to the Smithsonian publication on the design of the Wright brothers early engines.

http://freepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~wakefield/history/38739-h/38739-h.htm

Of particular interest is the cutaway drawing of their first engine. It shows the generator used for the ignition system. Here is the J PG of that drawing contained in the above publication.
(http://freepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~wakefield/history/38739-h/images/img009.jpg)
http://freepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~wakefield/history/38739-h/images/img009.jpg

this is a fairly large and detailed JPEG image and you might have to go to the link to see all the detail.

A few notes on the ignition system. As described in several accounts, "a separate coil and dry battery were used for starting the engine and were not carried aloft". So, you could have an external ignition module with a dummy generator and still be true to scale. Particularly if you're an old man like me and "forgot" to disconnect it once the engine was running.

for those interested in building a working magneto/generator I suspect that the original configuration was a series wound DC generator. The horseshoe-shaped parts would have just been a fairly soft "magnetically" material such as mild steel or cast iron and the coils around them were for generating the magnetic field for the generator. This is very common for that period of time because permanent magnet material technology was not well-developed then so electromagnets were the common source of the field. Alnico magnet technology did not come around until the mid-1930s. Other indications that this is just a DC generator are the brushes for the Armature shown in the illustrations. Also we know that this was not a timed magneto such as was used later on hit and miss engines because it is a friction drive from the flywheel so the generator probably turns about 4 to 5 times the engine RPM.

This is pure conjecture on my part, but if it was a series wound generator, there would have been only minimal output from the residual magnetism of the field core until the igniter points closed. The full current would then be dumped into the field coils until the points opened. Then the magnetic field of the field coils would collapse generating a much higher voltage for the igniter with the return path being through the brushes and Armature.

Gail in NM
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: 10KPete on May 06, 2016, 08:21:02 PM
Wow, thanks Gail! This is a most fascinating engine.

Pete
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 07, 2016, 12:28:47 AM
Gail, thanks for posting this. I had seen it in some earlier research but had never posted this particular cutaway view of the engine. Another interesting feature is that the connecting rods are hollow to save weight while both the pistons and rings were cast iron. The revolutionary use of aluminum at the time was limited to the crankcase casting.

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: fumopuc on May 07, 2016, 07:41:02 AM
Hi Gail, thanks for posting the link and the drawing also. A very interesting engine.
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: BillTodd on May 07, 2016, 08:22:11 AM
With regard to the ignition.

I'm not an historical expert but this looks to me to be simple LT (low tension) type as described above .

The internal contact points are normally open , the generator is  idling  producing a few tens of volts , as it is unloaded

At TDC or just before (adjusted here by a sliding shaft)  one cylinder's contact points will close (all 4 are connected together) ,the generator will now be loaded fully , producing somewhere near the rated 10v (which will be lost in the winding resistance)  and 4 amps (which will flow through the winding creating a magnetic field of stored energy)

shortly after, the contacts will open, causind the current to stop and the magnetic field to collapse rapidly. As the field collapses, a much higher voltage is generated causing an arc at the contact point (which ignites the fuel air mixture)

You can replace the generator with a battery , but it will need an inductor (i.e a coil of wire on a soft iron former)  to limit the current and store energy for the high voltage arc.

Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Myrickman on May 07, 2016, 11:14:20 AM
I found the fuel mixer and hot shoe vaporizer interesting, albeit crude. This was a detail I previously was unaware of. Commercially-made carburetors of this period were lacking in fuel metering ability so this was a common way of compensating. Thanks for posting. Paul
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Don1966 on May 07, 2016, 01:55:03 PM
With regard to the ignition.

I'm not an historical expert but this looks to me to be simple LT (low tension) type as described above .

The internal contact points are normally open , the generator is  idling  producing a few tens of volts , as it is unloaded

At TDC or just before (adjusted here by a sliding shaft)  one cylinder's contact points will close (all 4 are connected together) ,the generator will now be loaded fully , producing somewhere near the rated 10v (which will be lost in the winding resistance)  and 4 amps (which will flow through the winding creating a magnetic field of stored energy)

shortly after, the contacts will open, causind the current to stop and the magnetic field to collapse rapidly. As the field collapses, a much higher voltage is generated causing an arc at the contact point (which ignites the fuel air mixture)

You can replace the generator with a battery , but it will need an inductor (i.e a coil of wire on a soft iron former)  to limit the current and store energy for the high voltage arc.


I have a problem with that, when the generator is idling as you say and the contacts open, it is a full voltage and the fields will draw little current to support the generator. A yes when the contacts close the voltage is lost, but in the armature resistance not the field because the armature is the source not the fields. The full load amps will be flowing in the armature and small resistance of the contact circuit when closed, the fields current will be next to nothing. When the contacts close is when the field will discharge itself not when the contacts open. I believe the 4 amps is the key to making it work because we are using contacts to create the arc. The arc will accure when the contacts close just like a welding machine does when you strike an arc. Everyone has it in there mine that you need high voltage to produce an arc that's not so. The only reason you would need high voltage is if we have to jump a gap like a spark plug and when you have high voltage the current is very low. You should be able to use a battery to create the same effect as the magneto. When you put the two battery wires together they produce an arc because of the high inrush current of zero resistance. That is may take on the subject enuf said.

Don
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: BillTodd on May 07, 2016, 02:16:10 PM
its series wound Don, the same current is flowing through both armature and field windings,  Contact closure current is relatively small due to reluctance of both windings , it will rise linearly limited by series resistance. (likely to be higher than the rated 4amps )


Welders strike an arc as they disconnect (that's why you scratch start a tig for instance) .

The sparks you get when shorting a battery are molten metal burning after being heated by their resistance (that's why they are yellow not blue - and not really hot enough to ignite petrol)

The high-ish voltage is necessary to start an arc proper , once the plasma is formed current flow will maintain the temperature tto sustain it.
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Don1966 on May 07, 2016, 02:18:52 PM
The drawing Bill showed is not series connected it's parallel connected like a shunt motor. A series generator only puts out when loaded agree.

Don
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Don1966 on May 07, 2016, 02:51:36 PM
I need to correct what I said about the contact closing to produce the arc. It's the closing and sudden opening that creates the arc. This is a make break system.

Don
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 07, 2016, 03:14:28 PM
Thanks Don, that is what I was thinking from what I have read, but I am easily confused on this stuff as you know  :insane:

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: BillTodd on May 07, 2016, 03:33:35 PM
Well Bugger me Don, apologies, it does show a shunt winding ..
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Don1966 on May 07, 2016, 03:49:03 PM
Well Bugger me Don, apologies, it does show a shunt winding ..
No apologies needed Bill, we are all trying to figure this thing out. So we all have our own views...... :ThumbsUp:

 8) Don
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 07, 2016, 04:02:14 PM
It might help if the drawing was clearer but so far as I know these are the only known dimensioned drawings of the engine and it various ancillary parts like the magneto. I will work on the scaled drawings so we can all see what this thing will look like sizewise and then if it is doable or not. Most of the 1/4-20 hardware shown is going to scale down to 0-80 so its going to be pretty small !!

Oh and the friction drive wheel is 5" OD on the original vs. a 15" flywheel diameter so those two items will scale down to 1.25" and 3.75" respectively. Calculating the circumferences gives 11.78" for the flywheel and 3.927" for the friction wheel or a ratio of right at 3:1 So one engine rpm will yield 3 armature revs.

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Don1966 on May 07, 2016, 04:08:11 PM
Bill did you notice the spring on the bottom of the magneto pictures I sent you? It pushes and holds the magneto into the wheel.

Don
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: GailinNM on May 07, 2016, 04:25:09 PM
Bill,
I think your calculator had a hiccup in post 152.  The ratio is 3:1.
Gail in NM
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 07, 2016, 04:43:49 PM
Oops. You are right...my bad....I calculated area rather than circumference. Thanks for correcting me.See.. I said I was easily confused  :lolb: I have corrected the post....I think  ::)

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 07, 2016, 04:46:57 PM
Don, yes I did...and it shows that on the drawing as well, with radiuses slots in 3 corners of the base of to allow for that movement.
Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 20, 2016, 01:24:27 AM
I did say there might be a few teasers before I get back on this build and curiosity I suppose got the better of me while I am waiting to do the flywheels for the P&W engine.

So anyway, any guesses as to what this modest beginning on a .156" thick piece of brass might be?

More to follow in the next day or so.

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Don1966 on May 20, 2016, 01:46:00 AM
Yea Bill, looks like the base plate of the magneto........... :ThumbsUp:


Don
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 20, 2016, 01:52:15 AM
Bingo Don...kinda teeny isn't it?

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Don1966 on May 20, 2016, 02:20:47 AM
Yea Bill, it does look small. Send me the drawings if you have them made up......


D
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 20, 2016, 02:26:07 AM
Just the base and magnet profile so far. May get more drawing done over the weekend and will forward as I get more of it drawn.

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 21, 2016, 08:34:16 PM
I did finish up the magneto base and you will see it as pretty small. At this scale its bringing back memories of the half scale Rudy's Radial. Anyway...I flipped the part over to mill out the underside using a 1/8" end mill (photo 1). You can see in photo 3 the irregular cutout that had to be made and since this was going to be done with a 1/16" end mill, I drilled 1/16" holes in all the corners which made the milling easier in the corners and gave me some guidelines as well ....milling until the straight line was just tangent to the pilot holes. Photo 2 shows all these holes, photo 3 is the same but with some rough lines drawn in with a sharpie just so I wouldn't make a stupid error. All the straight lines were milled first (photo 4) and then off to the rotary table to mill the three slots, all referenced from that lone remaining hole down there in the lower right hand corner (photo 5). Lastly was the angled straight cut and the final result shown in photo 6 after some cleanup and fine sanding.

Am hoping to get to the Parsell & Weed flywheels next week early at work, and tomorrow it will be back to making the one remaining bracket for the Vickie build.

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on May 22, 2016, 12:09:14 AM
The last shot puts it all into perspective Bill.

Nice work on that little guy!

Dave
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 22, 2016, 12:15:30 AM
Thanks Dave, the little guy is kinda cute though  :)

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on May 22, 2016, 01:46:46 AM
Cute as a speckled pup  :ThumbsUp:. These type parts are where guys like you and Chris make the Sherline shine.  And Jo will be so proud of you for "multi-building" ;D

Cletus
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 22, 2016, 01:56:39 AM
Thanks Cletus! Not so much multi-building on this one at least...just wanted a diversion and to get an idea of the final size.  At this point its looking more like a scale but non-generating version of the original...if my eyes don't fail me first :)

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: crueby on May 22, 2016, 02:09:57 AM
Cldver use of the rotary table and mill cutter!
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on May 23, 2016, 03:11:30 AM
That is a great looking part, Bill. What a process! That would of been an interesting CNC project. I can see where that would be handy at times.

When you started connecting the holes in pic #3 I thought it might be one of those things where you connect the dots and get a drawing of a bear or eagle or something.  :ROFL:

I'm looking forward to your next step on your "Vickie" build.

Jim
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Admiral_dk on July 24, 2019, 08:24:40 PM
I know this is a very old thread - but I just saw a complete engine today (minus the upper cover-plate for the crankcase) at the Science Museum in London today !

The engine is in extremely good nick (almost like new), so I took several pictures from as many angles as possible. I will not be able to post them until I get back home. One interesting detail - the ignition "dynamo" is not part of the engine . it apparently is mounted on the fuselage next to the engine, and a rubber wheel on it touches the flywheel on the engine .  :thinking:
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on July 24, 2019, 08:36:08 PM
That is correct. The fuel tank was also mounted on one of the struts and my understanding is that there was no regulation to it, simply on (fuel flowing) or off.

Looking forward to seeing the pictures and thanks for resurrecting the thread. There will be more activity on this in a month or so.

Bill
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Jo on July 24, 2019, 09:00:04 PM
I know this is a very old thread - but I just saw a complete engine today (minus the upper cover-plate for the crankcase) at the Science Museum in London today !

Hi Per,

You seem to be back in the UK again  ::) one of these days you will have to travel down to Hampshire to visit us and given warning I am sure I can get Vixen to bring up his two Bristols and the Merc  so you can see those as well  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Vixen on July 24, 2019, 10:49:54 PM
Hello Per,

If you decide to visit Jo, I will join you there and bring along all three Bristol radials and two Mercedes W165 engines.

Mike
Title: Re: Wright Brothers 1903 Engine
Post by: Admiral_dk on July 26, 2019, 09:38:38 PM
Thank you both  :Love:

I will have to decline the very nice offer this time, as it is my father that has invited me with him for a few days in London, to see a few of the nice museums - flying forth and back => no personal transport .

We're flying back tomorrow (Saturday).  Next time I'm visiting the UK, I would love to come by, if it possible to fit into the schedule  :cheers:

Best wishes

Per