Model Engine Maker

Engines => Your Own Design => Topic started by: Camerart on February 04, 2016, 07:58:27 PM

Title: My design for an opposing piston engine
Post by: Camerart on February 04, 2016, 07:58:27 PM
Hi
I have spent many hours over my life time, trying to design a novel engine.  I've had a number of different type designs, and the latest is for charging electric vehicles, without any drive to the wheels.

I'm looking for someone who is interested enough to make one to try out.  I'm not sure if it coud be a commercal venture, or if this forum is for such a thing, but if anyone is interested, pease contact me.  I would like to keep this private until it's viability has been accessed.

I live in the UK. Looking forward to any replies.

Camerart.
Title: Re: My design for an opposing piston engine
Post by: b.lindsey on February 04, 2016, 08:33:48 PM
Camerart, the forum is intended for the sharing of model engine projects, and not really for the design or development of commercial applications. We also encourage some level of participation prior to asking for things other than perhaps questions about a certain build or known design, etc. Members are certainly free to respond should someone have an interest in your proposal, but aside from that this is not the kind of project that would typically be documented within the pages of MEM. Good luck in your endeavor however.

Bill
Title: Re: My design for an opposing piston engine
Post by: Camerart on February 04, 2016, 10:39:44 PM
Hi Bill,

I completely understand that my request isn't really in the spirit of your forum, but if I explain a bit of my story, as illustration of my intent it may help someone to be interested: 
Having learned how the internal compustion engine works, and being inventive, I designed a rotary engine in my teens, but my dad said " If Ford's can't do it, you can't"  I trusted his judgement and let time pass.  5ish years later the NSU Wankel engined car came out, and although my engine wasn't quite the same, it had similarities.   This prompted me to re-visit my ideas. 

The latest one, is completely different, and could be really interesting for someone to have a go at.  I have a lathe and milling machine also the skills to make one, but a better engineer with engine manufacturing skills and experience would make a better candidate. 

C.
Title: Re: My design for an opposing piston engine
Post by: BillTodd on February 04, 2016, 11:56:41 PM
have you considered a virtual model? i.e. 3d 

I have made such models under NDAs for a few 'inventors' . it can be instructive , i have pointed out a few wrinkles as well;-)

BTW what you described initially, put me in mine of the Marshall Tri-dyne engine :

http://wktodd.webspace.virginmedia.com/animations/Tridyne%20colourised.gif
Title: Re: My design for an opposing piston engine
Post by: bytewise on February 05, 2016, 12:08:55 AM
If you have not already seen  it, check out the Doxford opposed piston marine engines. There is a museum and a web site with history and pictures.
Hugh
Title: Re: My design for an opposing piston engine
Post by: Brian on February 05, 2016, 08:09:21 AM
Also take a look at Napier Deltic ---Commer T S 3--- Junkers Diesel aircraft.-- Free piston engines.
it May help.

Brian
Title: Re: My design for an opposing piston engine
Post by: Camerart on February 05, 2016, 08:50:41 AM
have you considered a virtual model? i.e. 3d 

I have made such models under NDAs for a few 'inventors' . it can be instructive , i have pointed out a few wrinkles as well;-)

BTW what you described initially, put me in mine of the Marshall Tri-dyne engine :

http://wktodd.webspace.virginmedia.com/animations/Tridyne%20colourised.gif

Hi Bill,

I have a 2D animation, which any motor engineer would be able to 'read'. As for 3D, as an aside! My son has just bought a computer for animation, which need it's own power meter as it can use 750W.

The Tridyne engine looks interesting.  The one I thought of at school (From memory) had one inner and one outer 'piston' and 'cylinder' the 'piston'  was offset from the 'cylinder' with the piston spinning inside the also spinning cylinder.  I remember getting stuck with sealing, as the 'piston ring' needed to be split at the 'corners' so that the centre ones could centrifuge outwards while the side ones were pushed sideways.

C.
Title: Re: My design for an opposing piston engine
Post by: Camerart on February 05, 2016, 08:52:44 AM
If you have not already seen  it, check out the Doxford opposed piston marine engines. There is a museum and a web site with history and pictures.
Hugh

Hi B,

When carrying out a patent search, I came across the Doxford engine. mines much different, but thanks.

C.
Title: Re: My design for an opposing piston engine
Post by: Camerart on February 05, 2016, 08:58:54 AM
Also take a look at Napier Deltic ---Commer T S 3--- Junkers Diesel aircraft.-- Free piston engines.
it May help.

Brian

Hi B,

All similar, and what what a good engineer would come up with for fast high compression, but again, nothing like mine.

C.
Title: Re: My design for an opposing piston engine
Post by: BillTodd on February 05, 2016, 10:00:26 AM
 
Quote
The one I thought of at school (From memory) had one inner and one outer 'piston' and 'cylinder' the 'piston'  was offset from the 'cylinder' with the piston spinning inside the also spinning cylinder.  I remember getting stuck with sealing, as the 'piston ring' needed to be split at the 'corners' so that the centre ones could centrifuge outwards while the side ones were pushed sideways.

C.

Sounds like the Cooley design (pre cursor to the wankel which used the same basic mechanism)   

www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/POWER/rotaryengines/rotaryeng6.htm#cool




Not wishing to sound too cynical, but I doubt you will have come up with any basic layout that would be patentable , the are a finite number of cylinder and piston arrangements and they've all been tried before, often many times.  Most new engine patents these days seem to have been devised only to circumvent previous pantents , there's just not a whole lot of originality left.

Bill

[edit] Added Cooley - Wankel  comparison
Title: Re: My design for an opposing piston engine
Post by: Camerart on February 05, 2016, 10:28:12 AM
Quote
The one I thought of at school (From memory) had one inner and one outer 'piston' and 'cylinder' the 'piston'  was offset from the 'cylinder' with the piston spinning inside the also spinning cylinder.  I remember getting stuck with sealing, as the 'piston ring' needed to be split at the 'corners' so that the centre ones could centrifuge outwards while the side ones were pushed sideways.

C.

Sounds like the Cooley design (pre cursor to the wankel which used the same basic mechanism)   

www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/POWER/rotaryengines/rotaryeng6.htm#cool


Not wishing to sound too cynical, but I doubt you will have come up with any basic layout that would be patentable , the are a finite number of cylinder and piston arrangements and they've all been tried before, often many times.  Most new engine patents these days seem to have been devised only to circumvent previous patents , there's just not a whole lot of originality left.

Bill

Hi Bill,

Yes, the one I thought of at school was very like the Cooley engine.  Once the Wankel came out, I realised that I had the ability, but not a patent, as it had been invented before my thoughts, but it gave me confidence.

The one I'm talking about now (Not rotary), is not like anything I've researched, but it will take a better searcher than me, to fully check.  I'm offering it, to see if it works, as it may prove to have some part that is patentable, or perhaps just an interesting exercise.   

Mine doesn't have a crankshaft or output shaft, and only delivers electric current.  Let me know if you come up with anything similar.

C.
Title: Re: My design for an opposing piston engine
Post by: BillTodd on February 05, 2016, 10:48:40 AM
Quote
  Mine doesn't have a crankshaft or output shaft, and only delivers electric current.

So we are talking about a free-piston oscillator or a cam engine ?  :naughty:

Bouncing pistons off springs , gas or magnetic fields ?  (NASA played with this for an in space generator and there's at least one company selling a Stirling cycle free-piston generator for the home)

Cams ( :facepalm:) lots of promise , lots of designs , few have solved the piston-cam interface problem and had any commercial success.

Here's one I animated, just out of NDA - http://www.5cycleengine.com/
Title: Re: My design for an opposing piston engine
Post by: Camerart on February 05, 2016, 11:39:00 AM
Quote
  Mine doesn't have a crankshaft or output shaft, and only delivers electric current.

So we are talking about a free-piston oscillator or a cam engine ?  :naughty:

Bouncing pistons off springs , gas or magnetic fields ?  (NASA played with this for an in space generator and there's at least one company selling a Stirling cycle free-piston generator for the home)

Cams ( :facepalm:) lots of promise , lots of designs , few have solved the piston-cam interface problem and had any commercial success.

Here's one I animated, just out of NDA - http://www.5cycleengine.com/


I agree, cams for power take off are not good design.
Title: Re: My design for an opposing piston engine
Post by: Roger B on February 05, 2016, 11:40:53 AM
Are you thinking of something like this?

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2013/02/dlr-20120220.html

Title: Re: My design for an opposing piston engine
Post by: Ian S C on February 05, 2016, 12:56:26 PM
     In amongst my collection of hot air engines, there is a free piston motor that drives a linear alternator, as it is an atmospheric motor, it is quite inefficient.
     One place an IC motor of this type was used was in the compacting hammer machine that was used on road building, it stood about 4ft high, and one man held the handles on each side while it went bang, bang------, a museum piece now, but some will remember them.
Ian S C
Title: Re: My design for an opposing piston engine
Post by: Camerart on February 05, 2016, 01:26:12 PM
Are you thinking of something like this?

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2013/02/dlr-20120220.html

Hi R,

Yes, it's this type of thing, but in my opinion, taken to the next phase of development.

C.
Title: Re: My design for an opposing piston engine
Post by: Camerart on February 07, 2016, 08:09:06 PM
Is there no one interested in my design?

C.
Title: Re: My design for an opposing piston engine
Post by: Admiral_dk on February 07, 2016, 09:03:07 PM
The design is interesting, but I will admit that most members here are more inspired if they see someone else building it first ....
Title: Re: My design for an opposing piston engine
Post by: BillTodd on February 07, 2016, 09:07:45 PM
Unless you're prepared to outline the actual design , I cannot see anyone wanting to commit the time - The people here want to show their work not hide it away so someone else might benefit. :shrug:
Title: Re: My design for an opposing piston engine
Post by: Niels Abildgaard on February 08, 2016, 06:47:00 AM
Is there no one interested in my design?

C.

It will be fun to look at and discuss.
Inventor problem (am one myself) is wanting to get rich on something without patent protection.
Give up getting rich and show us what You have or get a patent.
Title: Re: My design for an opposing piston engine
Post by: Camerart on February 08, 2016, 10:02:35 AM
While I consider sharing my ideas, please consider the many many hours I've spent thinking about it, and after you have built an engine which also takes many careful hours, would you give it away? 

If my idea has legs, and does go on to be adopted by a manufacturer, I would have watch as it come to fruition with only a mild pain as reward, so spare the poor inventor ;)

C.
Title: Re: My design for an opposing piston engine
Post by: BillTodd on February 08, 2016, 11:15:38 AM
Before you are accused of being a troll, because it's taken umpteen posts just to establish the thing is a free piston engine!...

You should focus on the smallest part that makes your design idea unique (in your view)  then think of as many words and ways to describe it as possible, jump on google patents and start searching for anything close. Make a list of the ones that vaguely cover your invention (there will be many)  . If you still believe it unique, then you have to put your money where your mouth is, and approach a patent agent or lawyer. It will not be cheap.

My thoughts are: that if your new idea is so  simple, a home model maker can construct it (i.e. it is just a mechanism) , then it has probably been tried before.

And, if it involves 'powerful' magnets .... just look on YouTube!

Best of luck,

Bill
Title: Re: My design for an opposing piston engine
Post by: Jo on February 08, 2016, 11:25:49 AM
If you are looking to lodge a Patent: I recall a fellow model engineer lodged one over 20 years ago in the UK and it cost over £2K  :o back then.

A Patent agent will carry out the checks for you (at your cost  :disappointed:).

Jo
Title: Re: My design for an opposing piston engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 08, 2016, 11:45:27 AM
While I consider sharing my ideas,

If you haven't, you should think about NDAs (non-disclosure agreements).
As soon as you share an idea on the forum (any forum), it will become public.
As soon as you share an idea with someone else, they may become eligible as a co-inventor.

I don't know where you are located...some governments have agencies that provide help in areas like this.
Small Business in the USA is one.
Do you have friends who work for companies and who have friends in their IP (intellectual property) department?
Title: Re: My design for an opposing piston engine
Post by: Camerart on February 08, 2016, 12:20:04 PM
To Bill,

I'm not a troll Bill, and I didn't even know it was called a 'Free piston engine' I did call it an opposing piston engine in the title, though.

Jo,  We used to have a patents office in London, where one could search, and I learned how to do it, and I took a patent out for 'Thin film etching conveyor' for very thin circuit boards.  Then I designed this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgROBScFUfc so far I've never profited from thinking apart from at work or personal toys.

Z, I was hoping for a uk engineer would like to look at it, using an NDA.  I accept it is something that may scare people off, as it takes commitment etc from both parties, without any guarantee of what path things will take. 

As this will take a lot of development it may be a good idea for me to give it away, which I'm still considering.  Unless someone comes forward with a sense of adventure.  Who knows, it may be worthless especially as electric vehicles may be favourable over fossil fuel ones.
C.
Title: Re: My design for an opposing piston engine
Post by: BillTodd on February 08, 2016, 02:31:40 PM
Quote
didn't even know it was called a 'Free piston engine' I did call it an opposing piston engine in the title, though.


That is your problem in a nutshell :-) 

if you didn't know it was called a free piston engine, then you really have not done your research, so how can you know your idea is unique?

I don't want to sound too negative but, everybody, their next-door neighbours and their friends, have designed engines, there must be millions of designs and as many pantents (maybe more)  .  Coming up with something new and making money outof it , is akin to winning the lottery.  The lottery is a whole lot easier :-)

Title: Re: My design for an opposing piston engine
Post by: Camerart on February 08, 2016, 09:46:18 PM
Bill,
[[[That is your problem in a nutshell :-)

if you didn't know it was called a free piston engine, then you really have not done your research, so how can you know your idea is unique?]]]

I wouldn't generally carry out a search using terms like 'free piston engine' as it could narrow the search.  I generally search using wider tems, in case the unique part of the invention, is in another section.  A quick search of free piston engine patents, didn't show my design.  Of course this doesn't prove it's not there somewhere.  I think it's better to develop this idea a bit more , before having a detailed search, which has already been mentioned to be quite expensive.

C.

Title: Re: My design for an opposing piston engine
Post by: Camerart on February 09, 2016, 02:47:40 PM
I've decided to release my engine design.  Here is a 2D animation showing the general idea, I hope someone will enjoy looking at it and maybe make a model. 

If anyone does want to make one, I am able to help with the coils and magnets for the generator side.

Any questions welcome, best wishes.

Camerart.

Title: Re: My design for an opposing piston engine
Post by: steam guy willy on February 09, 2016, 04:22:12 PM
interesting idea, is it IC or steam ? Also 2 problems with stuff 1, the oil companies will buy up the patents then sit on them so they can still sell oil products for inefficient 19 century infernal combustion engines..........2, the chinese will copy it and make them without due regards to the inventor.....Hope this is not too negative sounding. What about lubrication as there will be no splash as with con rods....how is it started........ Good luck however.!!
Title: Re: My design for an opposing piston engine
Post by: Niels Abildgaard on February 09, 2016, 05:04:56 PM
I've decided to release my engine design.  Here is a 2D animation showing the general idea, I hope someone will enjoy looking at it and maybe make a model. 

If anyone does want to make one, I am able to help with the coils and magnets for the generator side.

Any questions welcome, best wishes.

Camerart.

Another solution to same problem and has existed on web 15 years at least.

http://chevy57.free.fr/FORUM/junkers_two-stroke_crosshead.gif

The working principle  was proven by  engine shown here

http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=8&u=18152236

I have not earned a big fortune,but rather lost a small one trying to produce it.

Title: Re: My design for an opposing piston engine
Post by: Alyn Foundry on February 09, 2016, 06:24:41 PM
I've decided to release my engine design.  Here is a 2D animation showing the general idea, I hope someone will enjoy looking at it and maybe make a model. 

If anyone does want to make one, I am able to help with the coils and magnets for the generator side.

Any questions welcome, best wishes.

Camerart.

Hello Camerart.

It looks a very nice design however  " prior art " might just be a problem. The Körting Engine was essentially a single cylinder version, there's a nice picture of one in Rankin Kennedy's Modern engines and power generators of 1905.

I also see some problems arising in the animation. As the compressed air is admitted it will have a tendency to go straight out of the exhaust ports, not a problem if you're going to use Diesel fuel directly injected but the complete opposite for fuel/air mix. I also notice that during the air compression stroke the ports are open, so some practical means would be needed to keep them shut until the required time.

Kind regards, Graham.
Title: Re: My design for an opposing piston engine
Post by: Camerart on February 09, 2016, 07:46:51 PM
Hi A,

The idea was to simplify things and try to lower friction and moving parts by using a linear design, also the compression can be changed at will in mine.

C.
Title: Re: My design for an opposing piston engine
Post by: Camerart on February 09, 2016, 07:54:39 PM
interesting idea, is it IC or steam ? Also 2 problems with stuff 1, the oil companies will buy up the patents then sit on them so they can still sell oil products for inefficient 19 century infernal combustion engines..........2, the chinese will copy it and make them without due regards to the inventor.....Hope this is not too negative sounding. What about lubrication as there will be no splash as with con rods....how is it started........ Good luck however.!!

Hi S,
It is IC, Patents are no problem and anyone can copy it now it's open.  Not too negative, thanks.

Lubrication will be added as it is developed.

It is started, by putting current into the coils, as in a solenoid.

C.
Title: Re: My design for an opposing piston engine
Post by: Camerart on February 09, 2016, 08:08:37 PM

Hello Camerart.

It looks a very nice design however  " prior art " might just be a problem. The Körting Engine was essentially a single cylinder version, there's a nice picture of one in Rankin Kennedy's Modern engines and power generators of 1905.

I also see some problems arising in the animation. As the compressed air is admitted it will have a tendency to go straight out of the exhaust ports, not a problem if you're going to use Diesel fuel directly injected but the complete opposite for fuel/air mix. I also notice that during the air compression stroke the ports are open, so some practical means would be needed to keep them shut until the required time.

Kind regards, Graham.

Hi G,

Regarding the exhaust ports: Don't you think it will work as a two stroke if timed correctly where the incoming gas blows out the exhaust?  

EDIT: After a re-think, due to it's supercharged nature, the exhaust would indeed need some sort of timed restrictor mechanism.

EDIT EDIT: Another re-think!  What would happen if the main cylinder inputs were only the outer ones and the exhaust was the inner ones, would this give enough time to clear most of the burnt gas out of the cylinder, leaving most of the fresh charge inside?

The piston skirts should be longer to cover the main cylinder input ports till the correct time, during air compression.

Thanks.

C.

Title: Re: My design for an opposing piston engine
Post by: sco on February 09, 2016, 10:04:44 PM
Lots of unusual and innovative engine designs in these threads on autosport;

http://forums.autosport.com/topic/74960-new-engine/ (http://forums.autosport.com/topic/74960-new-engine/)

http://forums.autosport.com/topic/200769-patat-2-stroke-turbo-diesel/ (http://forums.autosport.com/topic/200769-patat-2-stroke-turbo-diesel/)

http://forums.autosport.com/topic/199557-sleeve-valves-vs-opposed-pistons/ (http://forums.autosport.com/topic/199557-sleeve-valves-vs-opposed-pistons/)

http://forums.autosport.com/topic/197904-patre-rotary-engine/ (http://forums.autosport.com/topic/197904-patre-rotary-engine/)

Worth wading through as there is some impressive stuff.

Simon
Title: Re: My design for an opposing piston engine
Post by: Camerart on February 10, 2016, 10:33:53 AM
Lots of unusual and innovative engine designs in these threads on autosport;

http://forums.autosport.com/topic/74960-new-engine/ (http://forums.autosport.com/topic/74960-new-engine/)

http://forums.autosport.com/topic/200769-patat-2-stroke-turbo-diesel/ (http://forums.autosport.com/topic/200769-patat-2-stroke-turbo-diesel/)

http://forums.autosport.com/topic/199557-sleeve-valves-vs-opposed-pistons/ (http://forums.autosport.com/topic/199557-sleeve-valves-vs-opposed-pistons/)

http://forums.autosport.com/topic/197904-patre-rotary-engine/ (http://forums.autosport.com/topic/197904-patre-rotary-engine/)

Worth wading through as there is some impressive stuff.

Simon

Hi S,

Yes, some interesting stuff there, thanks.

C.
Title: Re: My design for an opposing piston engine
Post by: Camerart on March 03, 2016, 01:58:01 PM
I'm puzzled!  Since I posted my idea, there appears to be no interest in making a model based on it.  Is it too difficult, or is it not clear how it works?  I would love someone to have a go.

Camerart.
Title: Re: My design for an opposing piston engine
Post by: Jo on March 03, 2016, 02:04:30 PM
Making models takes time so people normally make models of what they want to make and they start by looking at the drawings.

If you want someone to make a model for you of a specific design there are people who will do so but they require payment by the hour.

Jo
Title: Re: My design for an opposing piston engine
Post by: Camerart on March 04, 2016, 10:59:36 AM
Making models takes time so people normally make models of what they want to make and they start by looking at the drawings.

If you want someone to make a model for you of a specific design there are people who will do so but they require payment by the hour.

Jo

Hi Jo,
I quite understand just how long it would take to make a model, and please make some allowances for the time the inventor takes to come up with a design.  Much of the time is spent simplifying the design. 

I was hoping for a more pioneering person, who wants to make something different, instead of making one from existing plans.   

I don't want someone to make it for me, but for themselves, as an adventure, with possibly a unique engine/generator to be proud of.

I notice there have been many views of my design, and I bet there is someone making one in secret ;)

C.
Title: Re: My design for an opposing piston engine
Post by: b.lindsey on March 04, 2016, 12:12:41 PM
Camerart,

While the animated concept picture is interesting, for someone to make this (and assuming that some of the issues raised could be overcome), they would still have to start from scratch and produce working drawings on their own. For most of us, not only is this a hobby, but shop time is also limited by work commitments, families, and other responsibilities. While I admire your optimism, I would have to re-itterate that this is not the most likely venue for that happening, and we don't tend to be a "secretive" bunch.

Bill
Title: Re: My design for an opposing piston engine
Post by: Camerart on March 04, 2016, 04:08:48 PM
Hi Bill,
I understand about lack of time, as I have less now I'm retired, than I did at work, how does that work?

Regarding drawings, I would be happy to work with anybody who would like to develop it, and draw the drawings for them, also help with the magnet/coil side of things.  Having said that, I would need to be able to talk it over, so it would need to be someone I could meet personally.  Perhaps you are right, that this isn't the best place to try, thanks for your reply.

C.

Title: Re: My design for an opposing piston engine
Post by: Stuart on March 04, 2016, 06:39:33 PM
Camerart

I have been following your thread but not commenting, but to me what you are really looking for is a collaborator to help you work out the problems with you idea , looking at your concept I can foresee that there will be many .

I totally agree with Bill I doubt if any forum member would have the time let alone the inclination for such an undertaking , evan a simple engine to known principles to envisage draw up and bring to a completion would take a few years to do

However I wish you luck with your endeavour , I hope you succeed and we have a new highly efficient prime mover to look forward to , if you get near to 80% eff you will do very well indeed

These are my thoughts and are not intended to insult you in anyway

Good luck Stuart
Title: Re: My design for an opposing piston engine
Post by: Camerart on March 06, 2016, 09:41:12 AM
Hi Stuart,

Sad to say, it looks as though it will probably fade away then!  It does need someone to dedicate their time and trouble, which is unlikely, as it's a bit of a gamble, unless there are engineers already thinking about something similar, and seeing this may help them, hopefully.

Cheers, thanks for looking, C.

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