Model Engine Maker

Engines => Your Own Design => Topic started by: Vixen on July 19, 2015, 06:08:08 PM

Title: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 19, 2015, 06:08:08 PM
1       A short history of the Mercedes-Benz W165, 1.5 litre racing car  

Throughout the 1930’s, the German Mercedes Benz and Auto Union ‘Silver Arrows’ cars were an unbeatable force in Grand Prix racing.

The W165 racing car with it’s 1.5 litre V8 engine was developed by Mercedes-Benz for a single race – the 1939 Tripoli Grand Prix in Mellaha (Libya), then part of Italy. In those days the Tripoli Grand prix was a prestigious event in a prosperous Libya.

The Italian officials issued special regulations for the 1939 race in the Italian colony. The entrants were to be limited to the ‘voiturette formula’ for supercharged 1.5 litre engines. The intention was to sideline the German competitors, because both Mercedes-Benz (Tripoli winners in 1935, 1937 and 1938) and Auto Union (winners in 1936) had powerful 3.0 litre engines and thought not able to present a racing car for this class.

The managing director of Mercedes-Benz, Max Sailor, accepted the challenge and set the factory to work day and night to build two cars. The Untertürkheim plant was off limits to anyone without a special pass. They were left with the impossible task of developing cars in just eight months in time for the Tripoli Grand Prix. What emerged was the type W165, a scaled down version of their highly successful 3.0 litre Grand Prix cars.

In many design details, the W165 was based on the then current V12, 3-litre W154 Grand Prix car. The mechanically supercharged V8 had a displacement of 1,493 cc delivered 187 (254hp) at 8,000 rpm, and reached a top speed of 272km/h (160 mph) powered by a cocktail of alcohol, nitrobenzene, ether and acetone.

The development team under Rudolf Uhlenhaut achieved miracles. Two Mercedes-Benz W165 cars started the race in Tripoli on 7 May 1939, against an overwhelming number of competitors – 28 red-painted Alfa Romeo and Maserati voiturette racing cars. The W165’s achieved a triumphant double victory. Herman Lang won the spectacular, high speed, race for the third time, Rudolf Caracciola finished second, while the fastest Italian car with Emilio Villoresi at the wheel, crossed the finish line a good four minutes later.
 
It was to be their only victory, indeed their only race. Shortly after, war broke out in Europe, bringing motor racing to a halt for many years. Both cars survived the hostilities in neutral Switzerland and were eventually returned to MB. Motor racing would resume after the end of the war. Grand Prix racing was to run under the new Formula 1 regulations, which permitted either 1.5 litre supercharged or 4.5 litre un-supercharged engines.

After the war, a young British engineer, Cameron Earl, was sent to occupied Germany by the British Intelligence Objectives Sub committee (BIOS) to investigate and report on the development of Grand Prix racing cars before the war. The finished report, BIOS Report 1755, contained many detailed Mercedes-Benz blueprints of the W165 car and it’s 1.5 litre engine. The report was made available to the British motor industry and greatly influenced the design of the BRM V16, 1.5 litre, Grand Prix car.

I have obtained a copy of the British Intelligence report and have used the Mercedes-Benz blueprints as the basis of my CAD drawings for my 1:3 scale models of the W165 engine. Today, some 75 years after it was designed, the W165 engine is still an exciting engine, a technical masterpiece.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/gplrev1214.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/gplrev1215.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030953.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030954.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030966.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030964.jpg)

That's my 1/3 scale Supercharger sitting on top of the real thing.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jo on July 19, 2015, 06:16:54 PM
We are going to enjoy this  :whoohoo:

Mike the forum software doesn't seem to like your first four photos I think it could be because they are BMPs  :(

Jo
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jo on July 19, 2015, 06:26:19 PM
Nice to see you in the photograph with the engine  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 19, 2015, 06:31:43 PM
The driver in the white helmet with the tartan band is non other than Sir Jackie Stuart. He was the guest driver for the only running W165 at last years Goodwood Festival of Speed. The only other surviving W165 is on permanent display in the MB museum in Stuttgart.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: fumopuc on July 19, 2015, 06:37:23 PM
Hi Mike, thanks for reminding me of the history of this great race car. Waiting for the next steps of your build report.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: b.lindsey on July 19, 2015, 07:49:29 PM
Looking forward to this one as well. Should be a great build log!!

Bill
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: sco on July 19, 2015, 08:59:19 PM
I too am looking forward to this build.

I have had the great privilege of sitting in the W165!

Simon.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 19, 2015, 09:28:34 PM
Simon, Do you happen to work for a certain car company in Northants?
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: sco on July 19, 2015, 09:46:49 PM
Yes - the last two years after the Festival of Speed they've brought the cars up to the factory and fired them up in the car park.

Chatting to one of the MB classic team they are now running the cars so much that their stock of original parts is getting depleted and they are having to remake some bits.  Apparently the desmodromic valves from the 300SLR proved quite a challenge for Mercedes HPP at Brixworth!

Simon.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on July 20, 2015, 02:36:19 AM
I saw the germ of this project begin in ME a while back!   Welcome Mike

Looking forward to this build as well!


Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Art K on July 20, 2015, 03:43:04 AM
Mike,
I along with all the rest am looking forward to this build.
Art
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 20, 2015, 12:41:58 PM
2       Producing drawings for the W165 engine

The British Intelligence report was published and made public by HMSO in 1948 as a book aptly titled ‘Quick Silver’. Copies of this book are still readily available.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040808.jpg)

Cameron Earl, the report author, had free access to the Mercedes-Benz organisation in Stuttgart, located in the zone controlled by the Allies. The Auto Union facilities were in the Russian zone. Even by 1947 relations between east and west were deterioration, so access was denied.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040810.jpg)

Cameron Earl, a keen racing driver, made good use of his time in Germany, interviewing and collecting valuable documentation from MB and leading material suppliers. Earl was well aware of the proposed Formula 1 regulations for supercharged 1.5 litre engines. He therefore concentrated upon the Tripoli GP winning W165, and acquired many of the MB blueprints detailing the engine, transmission, steering, suspension and chassis. These prints were the obvious starting point for my project.

I am a lifelong user of AutoCAD. I only design and draw in 2D, because that it all I require to make engines. I discovered a way to import a scanned image as a bitmap (BMP) into AutoCAD. The BMP image is on it’s own layer and can be stretched to fit any desired scale. Just remember to freeze the layer when it is to the correct size.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P10408~4.jpg)

The scanned images from Earl’s report were the best (and remain the only) information available. Using the AutoCAD drawing tools, it is then possible to painstakingly trace the outlines each component over the  BMP images. The process takes me months but results in a trustworthy overall assembly drawing with the interface between each component clearly defined.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P11EF0~1.jpg)

The original BMP layer can be turned off and the relevant piece parts copied to separate manufacturing drawings for the individual component. I find this drawing work very enjoyable and a pleasant way to spend the long winter’s evenings when it is too cold to venture out into the machine shop.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/workshop.jpg)

My machine shop is almost entirely outfitted with CNC machines. My Emco Compact 5 CNC lathe and Emco F1 CNC mill were once the property of Her Majesty's Prison Service at Parkhurst Prison in the Isle of Wight, home to some very ‘tough nuts’. The machines were used in a vain attempt to retrain the criminals for a better future. Eventually, these old 1980’s technology machines were removed for disposal. I was the lucky guy who got to buy them. I stripped out and updated the ancient electronics and stepper motors with readily available modern stuff. I have used these old machines for over 15 years to produce a number of engines and other projects. It could be true what they say about the sweetest music coming from the oldest violins.

Every CNC machine needs a list of tool path commands to function. I use Desk NC to interpret G-Code instructions and move the tool around. I also use DesKAM to help create the toolpath commands in G-Code. I can export an outline shape from AutoCAD into DesKAM, I define the cutter size, depth of cut, step over dimension, feed and speed and the program works out the necessary toolpath. After that it is as simple as bolting down a block of stock material and pressing the ‘GO’ button.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P10205~1.jpg)

Oh! I wish it were really that simple. Ha ha.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Stuart on July 20, 2015, 12:55:52 PM
Got a order in for extra pop corn for this build  :cheers:

Looking forwards to what is to come


Stuart
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: fumopuc on July 20, 2015, 08:01:24 PM
Hi Mike, thanks for taking the time to explaine the details of the scource for your special design.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: DavidF on July 21, 2015, 05:18:17 AM
Im scratching my head here trying to figure this one out.  Its a 1.5L V8??   Whats the bore and stroke of the engine, then what will the scale of the model be?  Looking forward to seeing your progress :)
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jo on July 21, 2015, 07:12:54 AM
I stripped and updated the ancient electronics and stepper motors with readily available modern stuff. I have used these old machines for over 15 years to produce a number of engines and other projects. It could be true what they say about the sweetest music coming from the oldest violins.

........

Oh! I wish it were really that simple. Ha ha.

 :naughty: I assume you mean that the CNC is almost human as it too can provide unique features to each individual item that the rest of us thought can only be created by hand  ;).

Jo
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on July 21, 2015, 07:38:38 AM
Im scratching my head here trying to figure this one out.  Its a 1.5L V8??   Whats the bore and stroke of the engine, then what will the scale of the model be?  Looking forward to seeing your progress :)

 :headscratch:

"The W165 racing car with it’s 1.5 litre V8 engine"

And the title of the thread " Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale"
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 21, 2015, 08:08:00 AM
The full size Mercedes-Benz W165 engine had a displacement of 1,495 cc. The bore and stroke being 64  mm x 58 mm
The 1:3 scale model of the W165 engine will have a displacement of 55.4 cc and a bore and stroke of 21.3 mm x 19.3 mm

Hope this clears your confusion
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: DavidF on July 21, 2015, 06:05:51 PM
Im scratching my head here trying to figure this one out.  Its a 1.5L V8??   Whats the bore and stroke of the engine, then what will the scale of the model be?  Looking forward to seeing your progress :)

 :headscratch:

"The W165 racing car with it’s 1.5 litre V8 engine"

And the title of the thread " Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale"

  vixen cleared it up.  I was curious as to the bore and stroke since a 1.5 Litre v8 is pretty small displacement wise for a v8, but looks quite large when looking at it on youtube videos.
But yes I did miss the 1:3 scale in the title  :facepalm2:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 21, 2015, 06:34:09 PM
David,
I agree, 1.5 litre is a very small capacity for a V8, compared to the enormous V8 engines you race in the States.

However the regulations for that one race in Tripoli stipulated 1.5 litres, so that is what Mercedes-Benz designed and built to power the W165. The W165 was a miniature V8 version of their highly successful 3.0 litre V12 W163 Grand Prix engine.

When motor racing resumed in Europe, in the last 1940's, the BRM team went even further and designed and built a 1.5 litre V16.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on July 21, 2015, 06:47:51 PM
I suppose size for size they would be similar to a couple of 750cc V4 motorbike engines bolted end to end so plenty of power at high revs :)
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 21, 2015, 06:58:17 PM
Jason
Yes exactly the same as two superbike engines, but don't forget to add the two stage supercharger pumping nitrobenzene into those cylinders at 2.6 bar (39 psi).  I can smell that marzipan smell of the fuel from here.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: DavidF on July 21, 2015, 07:10:47 PM
Quote
the BRM team went even further and designed and built a 1.5 litre V16.

 :insane: :insane: :insane:

Wish I could get a look insied that one! 
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 21, 2015, 07:36:24 PM
David,
Your wish is my command.
Here is a longitudinal and lateral cross section drawing of the over ambitious 1.5 litre BRM V16.
The bore and stroke of this little baby was a mere 49.3mm x 47.8mm
The BRM V16 revved to over 10,000 rpm and had a Rolls-Royce designed two-stage centrifugal supercharger similar to the one from the Merlin aircraft engine (Spitfire and Mustang)
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on July 21, 2015, 07:38:42 PM
If I may step out of my redneck shell, I would just like to say,  that during this era,  engines were built wit the  precision of a fine turbuillion movement.  It was done by hand. To me it's much more impressive than what can be produced today by technology.  Remember when all the really good gun makers still hand filed and fitted,  but,  that's just my thinking  :shrug:

Cletus
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Allen Smithee on July 21, 2015, 07:57:45 PM
David,
The BRM V16 revved to over 10,000 rpm and had a Rolls-Royce designed two-stage axial supercharger similar to the one from the Merlin aircraft engine (Spitfire and Mustang)

ITYM "centrifugal supercharger".

AS
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: DavidF on July 22, 2015, 04:36:12 AM
they're both pretty impressive engines for their time. I think I like the v8 better design wise as it is what I am more accustomed to seeing and would pt more trust into it performing. But no mater how you look at it, its pretty amazing what the builders did with the design without the resources we have today.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 23, 2015, 05:37:54 PM
3A    Supercharger Gearcase

Time to start cutting metal

I now have sufficient completed drawings to confirm that the largest part, the crankcase will fit onto my mill. The crankcase overall length is 7.5 " and the X axis travel on the mill is 8". It will fit (only just) and could be machined, provided I am very careful with positioning the billet during the set up.

I decided to make a start with the two stage supercharger. It is very a very prominent feature on the front of the engine. I reasoned that if I could complete the supercharger successfully then the rest of the engine would follow. If the supercharger turned out badly, I would stop there.

I ordered in enough stock material for two superchargers. My choice for aluminium alloy is always grade 6082T6 (HE30TF). It is hard, strong and machines beautifully and readily available from most aluminium stockists.

The first component to be made was to be the supercharger gearcase. This gearcase contains the gears which synchronize the rotation of the compressor lobes and prevents them touching each other. It also contains the drive gears from the crankshaft. The full size gearcase was a magnesium casting , I machined the ones for my model from a solid billet of aluminium.

You can see the toolpath display generated for machining the internal details and also the corresponding first step of machining this into the  billet of aluminium. I always machine the critical features as the first operation. For this particular component, it was the positions of the gear shafts, their bearing cavities and all the interface bolt holes. After that, it was many, many small toolpath programs and machining steps to contour the remaining internal and external features. Eventually I had reduced most of the billet to small chips and was quite relieved to find a gearcase inside that aluminium billet. Most of the work was done using 6mm and 8mm diameter ball cutters in order to create the well rounded 'casting' look. The feeds and speeds for ball mills is a lot lower than for a normal end mill.

The strange looking feature on the left side is the cast in oil filter housing. The oil filter is a multi plate edge filter which literally scrapes the debris from the oil. The small handle is used to rotate the filter plates once in a while, to clear the debris from the edge of the filter plates.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 23, 2015, 05:41:24 PM
3B    The completed supercharger gearcase

Here are the some photos of the completed gearcase and oil filter housing

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020595.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020542.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020597.jpg)
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: RMO on July 23, 2015, 07:06:16 PM
Beautiful! 
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: b.lindsey on July 24, 2015, 12:37:31 AM
Very nice start on the gearcase. I' m along for the journey
 :popcorn:

Bill
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: fumopuc on July 24, 2015, 05:19:12 AM
Hi Mike, very  interesting. First I have struggled to recognize the split lines, but now I hope I got it. Beautiful.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on July 24, 2015, 08:51:50 AM
Excellent start  :praise2:  :praise2: I will be following along  :wine1:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 31, 2015, 03:50:23 PM
4A   Supercharger Housings


The next parts to be made are going be a serious test of my CNC programming and machining skills. I will attempt to machine the two sets of the High Pressure and Low pressure Roots Compressor outer casings from solid billets of alloy. The original housings, made by Mercedes-Benz, were an outstanding feat of foundry work. The thin wall compressor casings were sand cast in magnesium. I will machine my compressor casings out of a solid round billet of aluminium alloy. But what a waste of metal !!!!! 95% of the billets will end up as chips in the scrap bin.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020560.jpg)


The 75mm (3 inch) diameter aluminium HE 30 TF alloy billets being sawn to length on the bandsaw. It seems to take forever to make those cuts

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020562.jpg)

Two HP and two LP Roots compressor housings billets await their fate.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020573.jpg)

 Drilling the hold down bolt holes to secure the billets onto the mill table. I am using a home made CNC dividing head to index the billet. There will be just enough room to fit under the headstock of my mill, provided I clamp the billets directly to the table.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020578.jpg)

The first HP housing billet clamped to the mill table and the chips begin to fly. I always machine aluminium alloy dry. I use the plastic pipe is used to blow the chips out of that deep hole.
Just remember to blow, not suck!

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020581.jpg)

The inside of the HP compressor housing is starting to look quite nice. The base flange together with the bolt holes have already been machined, so everything should be concentric.
The bulk of the material is pocketed out, leaving a 10 thou finishing cut to bring the inside face of the compressor housing to size.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020583.jpg)

The bucket is nearly full and I have hardly started

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020575.jpg)

Disaster strikes. One of the HP billets escapes from the hold down clamps. Will have to wait until a new 12mm long series end mill is delivered. Will give me time to consider what went wrong and how to stop it happening next time.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020594.jpg)

Got there eventually. Two sets of Hp and LP compressor housings finished internally and roughed to the required outside profile. Time for a cup of tea, while I consider how to tackle the inlet/ outlet ports and the fins.







Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: tvoght on July 31, 2015, 04:09:07 PM
Astounding work.I appreciate the setup and process photos.
With regard to the use of compressed air to clear the chips: It appears there is a through hole from the bottom of the workpiece for air flow, but It's not clear how things are plumbed from the plastic hose. Is there a passage made in the fixture plate somehow?

--Tim
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 31, 2015, 04:17:14 PM
Tim
There is very little technology involved. I point one end of the plastic pipe down the hole, put the other in my mouth and blow (not suck). I tried an air compressor, but even at the lowest pressure I was getting sand blasted by the chips. Lung pressure worked much better

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: tvoght on July 31, 2015, 04:24:42 PM
Thanks for the clarification about the air source. Still, can you confirm that the end of the hose extends to a bottom hole in the workpiece so that the chips are being blown out from the bottom of the pocket? By the way, looking at the photo again I just noticed a smiley face drawn in the chip dust on the headstock!

--Tim
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 31, 2015, 04:35:22 PM
Tim,
The plastic pipe just happens to be parked on the end of one of the hold down bolts.  That way I always get the 'clean' end to blow down. I simply point the hose into the cavity, every minute or so, and gently blow out the chips. There are no air passages in the base plate.
Sometimes you get some spit as well, I guess that acts as a cutting fluid.       LOL

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: tvoght on July 31, 2015, 04:42:35 PM
Mike,
Gotcha. This is a trick I can use. I do blow the chips away a lot using my breath, but have never tried directing the flow with a tube .  It seems obvious in retrospect, but obvious things don't always occur to me...

--Tim
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 31, 2015, 04:48:31 PM
Tim
Just two things to remember.
1) always use the clean end of the tube
2) always remember to blow.

LOL

Mike

Part 4A Supercharger Housing,  was posted earlier, at the top of this page
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jo on July 31, 2015, 07:00:58 PM
I hadn't realised that your CNC mill could take cutters up to 12mm. What with the 30int nose they sound like they could be very useful addition to the workshop    :slap:



Sorry Mike decision made I am not going to Bristol this year :-[

Jo
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on July 31, 2015, 07:10:08 PM
Great idea on the the " pocket blow tube" When I read your two things to remember,  I couldn't help but recall a joke I heard. A newly minted "city boy became farmer" let his cow get in the corncrib and she became bloated. The vet was summoned and told the poor chap, "we've got to get her gut working". He inserted a long tube up her bum and started blowing, stopping only to explain what he was trying to do. The poor girl was in a really bad way and when the vet needed to take a short break,  he handed the hose to the farmer and said you blow a bit.  Well, the old boy says I'm not blowing on that,  you've had it in your mouth.  So, the old vet retracts the tube, swaps ends, hands it to the chap, says I'm sorry,  and the old boy says; "now that's better " :lolb: :lolb:. Couldn't help myself  :mischief:

Cletus
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 31, 2015, 07:30:38 PM
Jo
All my EMCO 30 Int tool holders have integral ER25 collet holders, therefore I could mount a 16mm milling cutter. I think that may be asking a bit much from an EMCO F1. If you can find a box full, you would indeed a have a very useful addition to your workshop.

Shame you cannot make it to Bristol, it is a very good show. Perhaps next year

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 31, 2015, 07:34:08 PM
Cletus,

Ha ha, I love your story.

Unfortunately, in this day and age, with AIDS, HIV etc. it may have been a safer option.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 31, 2015, 08:11:49 PM
This is another useful way of directing a jet of air to blow away the chips. I find the fishtail nozzle is better than a normal straight nozzle.
The only problem with compressed air is you go back into the house, at the end of the day, with aluminium dandruff.
One day I hope to get the CNC to control the air supply, so I can get a blast of air every 30 seconds or so.


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040847.JPG)
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 09, 2015, 12:41:22 PM
4B   Supercharger Housing (continued)

The machining of the two sets of HP and LP compressor housings was a lengthy exercise in Massive Metal Removal (MMR) Now is the time for some very cautious and precise work to complete the inlet/outlet ports and the cooling fins on all the Compressor Housings. The fins will reduce the compressor housings to 1.5mm wall thickness. One false cut and that part is reduced to a lump of scrap or a pile of misshapen washers.



(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020591.jpg)

Here the roughed out HP and LP Compressor Housings are trial fitted to the Gearcase. It is very rewarding when the ring of bolt holes in the mounting flanges line up perfectly, no oversize holes or filing to fit. Just remember that one flange face is a mirror image of the other.


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020624.jpg)

The inlet and outlet ports on the LP Compressor Housing are massive. The Mercedes designers did not position the inlet and outlet ports symmetrically about the centre line. The pulses or air from the upper and lower halves will therefore arrive at the outlet port at slightly different times. This would appear to be intended to broaden or spread out the flow of pulsations of compressed air.


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020601.jpg)

The inlet and outlet ports of the HP Compressor Housing. You can clearly see the asymmetry of the ports. The front face of the Compressor Housing is taking shape.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020604.jpg)

Some fine work with a 3mm ball nose cutter to create the cooling fins surrounding the bearing pockets at the front of the HP Compressor Housings.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020626.jpg)

Now the fun starts. Machining the cooling fins around the outside of the Compressor Housings. I used a single point cutter to cut each individual fin. It was a nervous time as the wall thickness was now reduced to only 1.5mm and the fins are 1.1mm wide. One false cut and I would have a pile of washers.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040831.jpg)

This is the single point form cutter I used to cut all the cooling fins on the LP and HP Housings. The HHS cutter is mounted in a boring bar holder, which is held in an INT 30 tool holder. The long overhang was necessary to reach to the end of the longer LP Housing. Gentle feeds and speeds prevented tool chatter.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020946.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020947.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020948.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020949.jpg)

Some views of the completed Supercharger housings assembled to the Gearcase. Very pleased with that days work. Time to relax with a hot cup of tea


Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: ozzie46 on August 09, 2015, 02:05:59 PM
BEAUTIFUL !!! :whoohoo: :whoohoo: :whoohoo:
 
 Will be following with great interest.   :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

  Ron
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on August 09, 2015, 03:09:15 PM
Magnificent  :praise2:  :praise2:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: fumopuc on August 09, 2015, 06:40:52 PM
WOW. A really great job. I admire your work.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 09, 2015, 06:46:06 PM
It is my tribute to the excellence of the Mercedes Silver Arrows

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: b.lindsey on August 09, 2015, 07:50:20 PM
Awesome work Mike!!  That supercharger is a thing of beauty!!


Bill
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: stevehuckss396 on August 09, 2015, 09:24:23 PM
I have to agree with the others. That is some mighty fine work your doing.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on September 08, 2015, 04:00:27 PM
5   Roots Blowers, Synchronising Gears and Rotor Lobes

The Mercedes Benz W165, 1.5 Litre, V8 engine was supercharged by an engine driven, two stage Roots Blower or compressor.

Both blowers, the larger first stage low pressure compressor, and the shorter second stage high pressure compressor both run at the same speed, the two pairs of rotor lobes are  the same diameter; but differ in overall length. Both are straight two lobe rotors without twist, which would normally create significant pressure pulses. The Mercedes Benz engineers cleverly designed asymmetry into the positioning of the inlet and outlet ports of each compressor to broaden, or spread out, the flow of pulsations of compressed air.   The pulses of air from the upper and lower paths of each compressor arrive at the outlet port at slightly different times. 

The compressor lobes are essentially a pair of two tooth gears. A pair of gears with only two teeth will not drive each other continuously, so an additional pair of external gears are required to keep the two compressor lobes synchronised. Unlike the synchronising gears, the two compressor lobes must not be allowed to touch anywhere when rotating, otherwise they will quickly seize. Excessive clearance would lead to unacceptable compression losses. The synchronising  gears therefore need to be very precisely made to minimise the clearance between the two lobes and prevent contact at all times.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020907.jpg)

The first job was to make the gear blanks and shafts complete with keyways. Note the special tube nuts.


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020926.jpg)

The overall machining of the gear blanks was completed before the teeth were cut.


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020932.jpg)

Gear cutting underway. The tooth form is 1.0 module. I used involute cutters from China, they seem adequate for the job.


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020941.jpg)

I cut enough synchronising gears for my two engines plus a spare set.


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020880.jpg)

The full size compressor rotor lobes were made by thin wall casting. I decided to machine my lobes from solid. there were made in sections to allow the centres to be hollowed out to reduce weight and help heat dissipation. The individual sections are to be bonded and pinned to the shafts.


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1020938.jpg)

The gears and shafts are hand selected for minimum backlash. I found it easier to check the gear meshing with the gears at the wrong end on the blower casing. It was almost impossible to do it inside the gear casing at the back of the blowers. Once the gears and shafts were selected they remain as a matched set forever.


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030108.jpg)

Three lobe sections are bonded to the High Pressure compressor shafts


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030118.jpg)

Five lobe sections are bonded together to form the longer Low Pressure compressor.


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030107.jpg)

The two lobes and their synchronising gears are trial fitted. The lobes are slightly oversize at this stage


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030101.jpg)

The slow process of hand fitting the lobes to the compressor housing begins.


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030096.jpg)

First the rotor lobes are made to fit the housings, with a few thou. clearance, by careful hand scraping and fine 'wet-n-dry' abrasive paper.


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030111.jpg)

Then the clearance between the individual rotor lobes is hand worked so that the two lobes do not contact each other but with the minimum of clearance.


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030113.jpg)

This seems to be a never ending process. Even the minimal backlash in the synchronising gears allows contact between the rotor flanks. Assemble, test, remove contact patch, reassemble, test, remove contact path........repeat........repeat.

And all in the name of model engine making.

The next parts to be made are the external manifolds which join the two compressor housing. That will be all precision machining and a welcome rest from hand fitting.





Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: sco on September 08, 2015, 04:10:33 PM
I admire your patience and your skill!

Why are there a pair of gears on one of the shafts that appear to mesh with a single gear on the other shaft - is this a form of scissor gear to minimise backlash?

Thanks for sharing the build with us,

Simon.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on September 08, 2015, 04:18:34 PM
Hello Simon.
Rear half of the double gear is driven by the engine. The front half is used only to synchronise the two rotor lobes. Therefore the gears only have to see the loads and wear rate associated with one task. That is how important Mercedes Benz considered the precision of the synchronising gears to be.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: sco on September 08, 2015, 04:39:21 PM
Mike,

Understood - thanks very much!

Simon.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: meanxbcoupe on September 12, 2015, 01:06:22 AM
This book is very informative when is comes to blowers.

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=190v57OV7WYC&lpg=PA2&ots=PkcuHMcEUC&dq=street%20supercharging%20by%20pat%20ganahl&pg=PA25#v=onepage&q=street%20supercharging%20by%20pat%20ganahl&f=false
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on September 12, 2015, 06:44:54 AM
Thanks for the information about this book. As you say, it appears to be very informative. I will certainly add it to my library collection

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on January 07, 2016, 04:57:22 PM
6  Inlet Manifold

Note to Jo   No castings were harmed in the making of this part.

I realise it has been a while since I last posted some progress in the build of the Mercedes W165 engine.

This is how I made the inlet manifold which connects the two carburetors to the inlet of the first stage supercharger compressor. On the full size engine the inlet manifold was a magnesium casting. For the 1/3 scale model I carved (machined) the inlet manifold out of a single block of aluminium because no model castings exist.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030594.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030595.jpg)

The first step was to get the aluminium block square and to size. The corner marked in black is the datum.
The internal features were the first thing to be machined. The interior cavity connects the two circular inlet ports to the large rectangular outlet port, which bolts to the first stage of the superchargers.



(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030600.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030605.jpg)

Material was machined from each face in turn until the rough outline of the inlet manifold slowly emerges. You need to plan the machining order carefully, otherwise you can easily machine away the part you need to clamp to for the next operation.



(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030649.jpg)

Here I have completed all the machining operations. Both flanges have been profiled and bolt holes drilled. The next stages are all hand worked with router bits in the Dremmel. I prefer to use a flexible extension for this type of work. Hand carving aluminium is very satisfying but it takes time and you get completely covered with aluminium dandruff.



(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1050111.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1050113.jpg)

Here is the inlet manifold after most of the hand working has been completed. There is still some areas which need a little more detail work.
The surface still needs to be sand blasted and coloured to resemble a chromated magnesium casting.
I need to take the sand blast cabinet into the garden (away from the machinery) so will have to wait until the weather improves, before I can do that stage.



(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1050136.jpg)

This is a trial fit of the inlet manifold to the first stage supercharger housing. Some small areas still need some tidying up.

Thank you for looking

Mike




Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on January 07, 2016, 06:49:26 PM
That's some splendid carving  :praise2:  :praise2:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: vcutajar on January 07, 2016, 06:57:31 PM
WOW and double WOW.

Vince
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: kettrinboy on January 07, 2016, 07:00:04 PM
Hi Mike
just caught up with this build and very impressed so far , this will be a model engineering masterpiece when its finished , the added history just shows how advanced engine technology in the racing world was all those years ago.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: petertha on January 07, 2016, 07:50:03 PM
Wow! Maybe I missed it, but what material was chosen for the lobes?
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on January 08, 2016, 11:07:32 AM
Thanks everyone for your comments. They are always appreciated and provide the encouragement to continue posting progress.

In answer to your question Petertha. The supercharger rotors on the original engine were fabricated as a very thin wall box, with numerous cross bulkheads, out of a 3% nickel steel (VOM 35). I do not have details of how the rotor was manufactured because, even after 75 years, Mercedes remain very secretive about their Silver Arrows cars and engines. I assume that nickel steel was used on account of strength required to resist centrifugal forces and for thermal expansion considerations.

For my 1/3 scale model I chose to construct the rotors out of aluminium alloy (HE30 TF). You can see in part 5 how I constructed the hollow structure out of a number of hollowed out sections. The wall thickness on the model rotor is between 1.0 and 1.5mm thick. The centrifugal forces on the 1/3 scale rotor are insignificant compared to the full size and I have provided generous clearance between the rotor tips and the housings. I hope and trust that nothing 'rubs' when the engine eventually runs.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: b.lindsey on January 08, 2016, 11:50:00 AM
Even triple WOW!!! That is some amazing profiling work Mike. The supercharger is a work of art all by itself!!

Bill
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Hans on January 08, 2016, 02:36:33 PM
Very impressive, Mike. I like how your Dremelizing produced a surface that looks like a casting.

~Hans
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on January 08, 2016, 03:26:46 PM
Dremelizing,  that's a new word for me but it describes the process well.

This is the olive shaped tungsten carbide bit I used in the Dremel. I run the Dremel at it's slowest speed and let the cutter bounce off the surface as I move it from side to side. The cutter is very sharp and long lasting, I was surprised, as it was part of a very inexpensive set made in China and bought via evilbay. I follow the Dremel work with some wire wool or Scotchbrite.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1050138.jpg)


Mike



Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: cwelkie on January 08, 2016, 03:48:37 PM
Mike you are a sculptor and a model engineer.  This is a phenomenal display of not only replica design but also 3-D visualization while "releasing" the end product from its raw material. And you make it sound and look so easy ...
Simply beautiful!
Charlie
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: fumopuc on January 09, 2016, 08:07:31 PM
Mike, WOW. I like your Dremel casting style.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on January 09, 2016, 08:45:14 PM
Achim
I visited Munich last year, great city.
I was surprised to find one of the  fabulous W125 Silver Arrows cars on display in the MB showroom on the corner of Odeonsplatz. I was even more surprised to find they were still telling the old fairy story about scraping all the white paint off the achieve the 750Kg weight limit and that is how they became silver. Great car, great story, if only it were true.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030517.jpg)

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on June 02, 2016, 10:19:40 PM
7     Transfer Manifold

I realise I am falling way behind with this build log, steady build progress is being made but I am way behind with the postings. I will attempt to catch up

The last major part of the two stage supercharger to be made is the horse shoe shaped transfer manifold which connects the larger low pressure compressor to the smaller high pressure stage. On the full size engine the transfer manifold was on integral parts of the two supercharger housing, which required very elaborate castings in magnesium alloy. I am machining my engine from solid billets of aluminium as there are no castings available. I am attempting to machine a very 3 dimensional object from 2 dimensional drawings on 3 axis milling machine. I needed to carefully consider how to machine what is basically a curved hollow tube and how to make it fit the existing supercharger casings.

To help me visualise the transfer manifold, a friend made a Solidworks 3D model from my drawings and quickly 3D printed something for me to play with.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030139.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030138.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030141.jpg)

This printed part was a great help in planning the machining steps. The transfer manifold consists a left and a right half, joined at the centre by a large pipe clamp. I decided to machine both sides joined together in order to maintain their correct alignment and to separate the left and right halves after all the machining was complete. I was able to design the hollow transfer manifold as two hollow shells to be bolted together with hidden screws. I would use the same grade of aluminium alloy for the manifold and for the fixing screws.


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030122.jpg)

Here you can see the first stage of machining the internal contours of the rear half of the transfer manifold. You can see the small lands which are designed to accept the hidden screws which will hold the two halves together. The process is the same as before, start with a big block of aluminium and convert most of it into small chips and hopefully an engine part will emerge.


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030127.jpg)

Part of the outside profile was also machined without disturbing the set-up. The wall thickness of the shell is about 1.5mm.


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030136.jpg)

The rear half of the transfer manifold is offered up to the high and low pressure compressors. So far, so good


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030295.jpg)

The front half of the transfer manifold was machined in a similar manner to the first. The two halves were glued and bolted together using bolts made from the same material as the manifold. A lot of hand filing was then required to complete the outside shape of the assembled transfer manifold. The fixing screws blended in and were lost from view during this process. The low pressure (the far side) of the manifold was a sandwich of three parts while the high pressure side was made from two halves.


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030298.jpg)

The supercharger cooling fins were carefully filed away from the two compressor housings where the transfer manifold would eventually fit.


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030300.jpg)

The transfer manifold is made to fit snugly onto the two compressor housing before the mounting bolt holes are drilled.


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030343.jpg)

M3 cap head bolts are partially buried in the mounting flanges.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030344.jpg)

The left and right halves have been separated at the centre point. The rubber band was used to hold the two halves in position while the mounting flanges were being worked on.
I was very relieved to have got this far without too many problems. The transfer manifold is a very prominent feature at the front of the engine and therefore needs to look right.  I would not have wanted to redo that part.
Time to relax and enjoy a nice cup of tea.


Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: zeeprogrammer on June 02, 2016, 11:12:57 PM
That is awesome!
Beautiful work.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: b.lindsey on June 03, 2016, 12:39:30 AM
Beautiful Mike. Totally awesome work!!

Bill
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on June 03, 2016, 02:35:51 AM
Lot's of good Learnin there!!!    :ThumbsUp:

Thanks for posting that Mike, it's great to watch you work!

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: gbritnell on June 03, 2016, 02:59:13 AM
Some superlative carving there! It's great watching the pieces spring out of a block of metal. I can appreciate every cut you make.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jo on June 03, 2016, 08:39:17 AM
That's looking really impressive Mike, I am looking forward to seeing it at Guildford in a few weeks time 8)

Talking of attending the Guildford show: It doesn't look like our mutual friend will have anything new to show again this year  :disappointed:. He is currently up to his arm pits in Engineering Microscopes  :headscratch:

I tried to encourage him back on to the straight and narrow by forcing him to get out his model engine casting sets but it didn't work  :ShakeHead: The best I could do was confiscate a set and bring them home to make them feel wanted and loved.

Jo
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: evildrome on June 03, 2016, 02:49:17 PM
Mike,

 Once you had the 3D printed part, did you consider doing a lost wax of it instead of machining it?

Cheers,

 Wilson.


Ps. Amazing work BTW.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on June 03, 2016, 04:01:30 PM
Jo,
I am also looking forward to the Guildford show, it's one of my favorites. No surprises from our mutual friend then, he does love his 'wheeling and dealing' just like Del Boy.

Wilson,
Yes, lost wax casting is a possibility. Unfortunately I do not possess a lost wax foundry and the only commercial foundry (that I know of) who are prepared to do one-offs for model engineers, in this country, have a £500 minimum order. Clearly they do not really want the model engineers work. At that price, you would need to be absolutely certain of the correct allowances for wax shrinkage, post burn-out investment shrinkage and of course the cast metal shrinkage. It can quickly become a very expensive learning curve to determine these allowances.

For those reasons I chose to machine everything from the solid billet. I know the properties of the material I work with and I control the dimensions of the finished part. The only other cost is my time and I provide that for free, for the enjoyment. Besides, I can claim the model is ALL my own work.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: fumopuc on June 03, 2016, 08:46:14 PM
Hi Mike, thanks for showing your excellent work here.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Steamer5 on June 03, 2016, 11:25:54 PM
Hi Mike,
 Have been really enjoying your work.....outstanding !

Make's this lesser mortal think about selling up the workshop as there's not enough time to left to get close to being in your class.....still like you say it's all for enjoyment at what ever our level.

On the lost wax casting front, have those guys not worked out that there is a large potential market out there who may just be ready to take the plunge if the costs seems reasonable........or maybe there is somebody who does this as a hobbie & would like to move into full time .

Looking forward to the next installment

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Zephyrin on June 03, 2016, 11:32:58 PM
These first parts are absolutely amazing, as is the whole project, wow !
carving from the solid is fabulous, it really shows first class skill...
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on June 04, 2016, 12:11:16 PM
Thank you to all who have commented on the latest installment of this ongoing project.

Just remember:
Experience is directly proportional to the height of your scrap pile.
You learn more from your own mistakes than from others.
But never forget that experience also allows you to make the same mistakes again, but with more confidence.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jo on June 04, 2016, 12:25:13 PM
Just remember:
Experience is directly proportional to the height of your scrap pile.
You learn more from your own mistakes than from others.
But never forget that experience also allows you to make the same mistakes again, but with more confidence.

Which reminds me Mike :embarassed: I was going to take along a box of " the bits that didn't make it on the model" to the Guildford show. If you feel brave we could add some of your examples.

Jo

P.S. Jason can't provide any because he never does anything wrong  :mischief:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on June 04, 2016, 01:00:55 PM
Thank you to all who have commented on the latest installment of this ongoing project.

Just remember:
Experience is directly proportional to the height of your scrap pile.
You learn more from your own mistakes than from others.
But never forget that experience also allows you to make the same mistakes again, but with more confidence.

Mike

 :lolb:

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on June 04, 2016, 08:08:14 PM
Some more impressive carving  :praise2:  :praise2: Until you try you don't know what you can do  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on June 04, 2016, 10:43:58 PM
Quote
Just remember:
Experience is directly proportional to the height of your scrap pile.
You learn more from your own mistakes than from others.
But never forget that experience also allows you to make the same mistakes again, but with more confidence.

Been there, done that ..... and continue to do so   :ShakeHead:  :facepalm: .... though I still have to get around to do so with model engines - ... it looks like I'm getting closer to start doing so in that department too   :noidea:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on June 05, 2016, 09:35:12 AM
though I still have to get around to do so with model engines - ... it looks like I'm getting closer to start doing so in that department too   :noidea:

Life always looks a whole lot better from the door into a model engineers workshop. Keep us posted

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: sco on June 05, 2016, 11:31:28 AM
I have some pictures of the camshaft, crank and rods if they are any help when you get to those parts.  I could probably also get measurements if needed.

Simon.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on June 05, 2016, 11:47:11 AM
Simon,.

Do you really have photos of the crank, camshaft and rods for the W165? I would appreciate if you would share them with me.

I used to be able to obtain a (very) limited number of photos of the W165 engine restoration work at Fellbach through Christof Knetch and Gert Straub but that source has dried up. How good are your connections with the Classic Centre at Fellbach? There are a number of photos in their collection that I would dearly like.

My e-mail address is in my profile information. Perhaps it would be a better to correspond there, rather than clutter up the forum.

I'm already getting excited

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: sco on June 05, 2016, 12:35:23 PM
Pretty sure these are 165 parts:

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on June 05, 2016, 01:02:05 PM
OOOOOOH!!!    Hirth joints, and silver lined bronze bearing shells..........that'll keep you out of trouble Mike!    I like it!!!!

Thanks for sharing that SCO!

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on June 05, 2016, 01:05:46 PM
Ahhh Desmodromic valve gear as well!!!....

http://www.cycleworld.com/2014/04/25/cw-tech-valve-control-history-and-why-ducati-is-committed-to-desmodromics

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: sco on June 05, 2016, 01:17:51 PM
I know - that Hirth crank gets me going too!

Simon.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on June 05, 2016, 02:10:13 PM
Mike, as I recall....perhaps incorrectly, you have one of the larger Aciera mills?   F2 or F3?

That would be the perfect weapon for the Hirth joints I think....

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on June 05, 2016, 02:26:29 PM
Hello Simon,

Thanks for posting those very interesting photos. I am not sure what to make of them. I'm not sure they are parts for the W165, my guess is the W196 of the Stirling Moss/Fangio era.


I am working to MB blueprints liberated by British Intelligence investigators in 1947. These show an engine with a one piece crankshaft with split main and split con-rod roller bearings. Brian Perkins has found reference to a special Hirth crankshaft being made by Mahle for the W165 with one piece conrods to overcome possible weakness in the big end bearings. Could this be what you have found?

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040788.jpg)



The camshaft in your photo, is clearly a four cylinder Desmo camshaft. We know that Rudolf Uhlenhaut designed the 2.5 litre W196 as a staight eight with two banks of four cylinders. As far as I know the W196 was the first venture by Mercedes into Desmo valve gear. My guess is the photos are of parts from that engine. I could be wrong, I am not that knowledgeable about the post war Mercedes cars.

Thanks again for posting these photos. I appreciate your help.

Research is all about turning over every leaf and analyzing what you find, some days are diamonds, some days are stone.

Cheers

Mike

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on June 05, 2016, 02:35:52 PM
Hello Dave,

My mills are small Emco F1 table top milling machines. I have the option to turn the quill through 90 degrees to give a horizontal mode.

From my previous post you can see that I have a one piece crankshaft in mind for my W165 engine, based on the evidence from the available MB blueprints. The one-piece crankshaft does have a Hirth coupling at either end. At the rear the flywheel is attached via a Hirth coupling as is the supercharger drive at the front.

There is no getting away from the Hirth coupling on engines designed in the pre-war era.

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on June 05, 2016, 02:46:39 PM
Hey Mike,

That looks like a "conventional"  pivoting lever follower, is that correct?

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on June 05, 2016, 02:51:49 PM
Hello Dave,

That's how I read the blueprint.

Incidentally, there are two inlet and two exhaust valves per cylinder.

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: sco on June 05, 2016, 09:17:24 PM
Hello Simon,

Thanks for posting those very interesting photos. I am not sure what to make of them. I'm not sure they are parts for the W165, my guess is the W196 of the Stirling Moss/Fangio era.


I am working to MB blueprints liberated by British Intelligence investigators in 1947. These show an engine with a one piece crankshaft with split main and split con-rod roller bearings. Brian Perkins has found reference to a special Hirth crankshaft being made by Mahle for the W165 with one piece conrods to overcome possible weakness in the big end bearings. Could this be what you have found?
(http://i901.photobucket.com/albums/ac218/v8vixen1/P1040788.jpg)



The camshaft in your photo, is clearly a four cylinder Desmo camshaft. We know that Rudolf Uhlenhaut designed the 2.5 litre W196 as a staight eight with two banks of four cylinders. As far as I know the W196 was the first venture by Mercedes into Desmo valve gear. My guess is the photos are of parts from that engine. I could be wrong, I am not that knowledgeable about the post war Mercedes cars.

Thanks again for posting these photos. I appreciate your help.

Research is all about turning over every leaf and analyzing what you find, some days are diamonds, some days are stone.

Cheers

Mike

Mike,

It's easily possible that these are W196 parts rather than W165 - apologies for leading you up the garden path.  They were in a display area at work - I'll check the labelling tomorrow if they are still there - it could be that they are miss-labelled but more likely I have got my numbers mixed up.

Apologies again,

Simon.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on June 05, 2016, 09:45:23 PM
Hello Simon,

There is absolutely no need to apologise. Any numbering system rather than a name is bound to lead to a confusion one day.

I am led to believe that MB are re-manufacturing many parts for the W196 engines because they have used all the available spare parts at the Classic Centre in Fellbach. It could be you have some of the used components in your display area.

Thanks for thinking of me in the first place.

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: sco on June 06, 2016, 01:19:53 PM
Mike,

I checked again and the label with the parts says;

Mercedes W165
Crankshaft and Conrod
(both were built into the W165 after the Tripolli Race)

So I think you are right about the camshaft, but if the label is correct then these are indeed W165 parts.

Hope that helps,

Simon.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on June 06, 2016, 02:57:43 PM
I checked again and the label with the parts says;

Mercedes W165
Crankshaft and Conrod
(both were built into the W165 after the Tripolli Race)

Hello Simon,

This is getting to be very interesting.

The first two W165's were built in eight months during the winter of 1938/39 and competed in their one and only race in Tripoli in May 1939. It was widely anticipated that the next Grand Prix engine formula change would be to 1.5 litre supercharged or 4.5 litre un-supercharged. History shows that Mercedes Benz continued their race car developments during 1940 and the early part of 1941, while the rest of Europe was in flames. It is reasonable to assume they would put a lot of effort into developing the 1.5 litre W165 as far as possible to be ready for the new formula. The new formula did come into effect in 1946 but Mercedes Benz were then in no position to compete.

Brian Perkins has discovered a reference to a special Hirth crankshaft being made by Mahle for the W165 with one piece conrods to overcome possible weakness in the big end bearings. No further details have been found. Perhaps you have unearthed the missing evidence. Now that would be interesting!!!!

There is one way we can easily check if the hardware would fit the W165. The Hirth crankshaft would most likely be a drop in replacement for the older one piece crankshaft, therefore the leading dimensions would be the same. The W165  has a bore and stroke of 64 x 58. So the distance between the main and big end centres should be 29mm. Also the overall diameter of the crankwebs should be 200mm and the distance between the con rod bearing centres should be 142mm.

If this all checks out, I would appreciate if you could make some more photos of the bits, square on and side on so that I can draw them up in 1/3 scale.

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on June 06, 2016, 03:01:50 PM
This is getting interesting!!!!!

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on June 06, 2016, 03:04:28 PM
Even more interesting than an interesting thing

Baldric
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: sco on June 06, 2016, 03:15:44 PM
I checked again and the label with the parts says;

Mercedes W165
Crankshaft and Conrod
(both were built into the W165 after the Tripolli Race)

Hello Simon,

There is one way we can easily check if the hardware would fit the W165. The Hirth crankshaft would most likely be a drop in replacement for the older one piece crankshaft, therefore the leading dimensions would be the same. The W165  has a bore and stroke of 64 x 58. So the distance between the main and big end centres should be 29mm. Also the overall diameter of the crankwebs should be 200mm and the distance between the con rod bearing centres should be 142mm.

If this all checks out, I would appreciate if you could make some more photos of the bits, square on and side on so that I can draw them up in 1/3 scale.

Cheers

Mike

OK I can measure the od of the crank webs and the conrod bearing centres but the distance between main and big end centres might be more of a challenge.

Simon.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on June 06, 2016, 03:28:14 PM

Quote

OK I can measure the od of the crank webs and the conrod bearing centres but the distance between main and big end centres might be more of a challenge.

Simon.

If these items were to fit the W165 the main to big end centre distance would be 29.0mm However if they are from the W196 then the main to big end distance would be much bigger at 34.4mm. You should be able to eyeball a guess/ estimate between the two

Cheers

Mike
(http://i901.photobucket.com/albums/ac218/v8vixen1/model%20maker.jpg)
      Except I don't smoke a pipe or have a white mustache.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on June 06, 2016, 03:33:37 PM
...and your model is bigger....   8)

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on June 06, 2016, 03:44:10 PM
She, says size is everything

Mike :embarassed:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on June 06, 2016, 04:04:02 PM
....not goin there......


Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: sco on June 06, 2016, 04:48:56 PM
Ok this is what I have measured:

Conrod
Big end bore: 68mm
Small end bore: 26mm
Centre distance: 145mm

Crank
Web dia: 144.9mm
Throw: ~39mm

Simon.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on June 06, 2016, 06:09:37 PM
Hello Simon,

This one will not lay down easily. The mystery continues.

I have found the reference to the Mahle built up Hirth Crankshaft. It only says that MB were considering the alternative as a way to use standard one piece roller bearings in the big end to improve their current design of split caged rollers which had a very short life. There were no test results reported other than noting  Mahle built up crankshafts had been used by Auto Union for years with complete success.

I could maybe live with the con-rod dimensions, they are quite close to what I have measured off the copies of copies of old blueprints, which can obviously lead to errors.

Are you sure of the crank throw? 39mm x 2 = 78mm; which would be more appropriate for something like a 5 litre engine rather than a tiny 1.5 litre engine. The distance between the centres would need to be 29.0mm for the W165.

Are you sure you estimated the overall crank web diameter rather than measuring the distance across the web?

I confess to making an error myself, the overall diameter of the crank web should be more like 168mm than the 200mm I said before.

Is there anyone you can talk to regarding the provenance of those w165 parts?

Keep digging and we will get to the bottom of this one.

Cheers

Mike

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: sco on June 06, 2016, 08:51:02 PM
Mike,

I'll re-check the throw tomorrow but I'm pretty sure it's closer to 40mm than 30mm.  I will admit to when trying to measure the web diameter to just measuring across the widest part of the crank so I'll have another go at that tomorrow too.

Simon.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on June 06, 2016, 11:14:45 PM
Hello Simon,

I have been able to do a bit of photo analysis on the two images you sent yesterday. By using your measurements and comparing them with the photos, I conclude the throw is 40mm ish (just as you measured) and the overall diameter of the whole crankshaft would be 165mm ish, which compares well with overall diameter of 168mm, I measured from the blueprint.

So the con rod and every thing else matches with what would be expected for the W165, everything that is except for the 40mm throw. Even that oil catcher grove around the main bearing matches W165 practice.

The reason I am at this like a terrier, is because the use of a built up (Hirth) crank and commercial one piece needle roller bearings may be the only logical way for me to build the model crankshaft. A one piece crankshaft would need hardened journals and hardened half shells for all the mains and big end bearings. I do not have the equipment to do that sort of precision grinding of the bearing faces. Even Mercedes were having trouble with this area. 

I would need to base my design on the hardware you have available (even if we cannot resolve the 40mm throw).

Is there any chance you could take some more photos, square on and side on? Perhaps the two sections will pull apart for the photos.

Thanks for your patience and help.

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on June 07, 2016, 07:44:45 AM
May be worth laying a rule or tape next to the parts if you do take any more photos.

Better still pop the bits in your pocket and come down to Guildford in a couple of weeks ;)
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: sco on June 07, 2016, 07:48:13 AM
Mike,

No need for bump - I'm on it today so you just need to be patient  ;)

Was going to take the pictures on a piece of A4 to give you a size reference as well as a ruler,

Simon.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Steamer5 on June 07, 2016, 09:02:13 AM
Mike,
 Sounds like you need to jump in the car & visit Simon! Can be what no more than 3 or 4 hours...... :stickpoke:


Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on June 07, 2016, 11:42:29 PM
Hello Kerrin,

It's more like only 2 hours by car. However when you consider the work they are involved in, I would expect the security to be tighter than a ducks backside.... watertight. They would not want an undesirable model engine maker within a mile. Ha ha

Simon has already posted some excellent photographs which show the Hirth coupling extremely well. They should be enough for our purposes. A big thank you to Simon.

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: 1dbweldor on June 12, 2016, 05:31:58 PM
I have a friend that retired from R&d Mercedes some years ago and moved to the US. Would you mind if I had him look at these pictures and see what he thinks and knows of these engines? I know he spent his adult lifetime with MB and probably the most knowledgeable person I know on engines.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on June 12, 2016, 06:36:25 PM
Hello 1dbweldor,
Please go ahead and ask, we all would welcome the opinion from someone with the knowledge.
We are coming to the opinion that both the camshaft and crankshaft components are all from the post-war Mercedes W196.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: michelko on February 06, 2017, 12:13:59 PM
7     Transfer Manifold

I realise I am falling way behind with this build log, steady build progress is being made but I am way behind with the postings. I will attempt to catch up

The last major part of the two stage supercharger to be made is the horse shoe shaped transfer manifold which connects the larger low pressure compressor to the smaller high pressure stage. On the full size engine the transfer manifold was on integral parts of the two supercharger housing, which required very elaborate castings in magnesium alloy. I am machining my engine from solid billets of aluminium as there are no castings available. I am attempting to machine a very 3 dimensional object from 2 dimensional drawings on 3 axis milling machine. I needed to carefully consider how to machine what is basically a curved hollow tube and how to make it fit the existing supercharger casings.

To help me visualise the transfer manifold, a friend made a Solidworks 3D model from my drawings and quickly 3D printed something for me to play with.

(http://i901.photobucket.com/albums/ac218/v8vixen1/P1030139.jpg)

(http://i901.photobucket.com/albums/ac218/v8vixen1/P1030138.jpg)

(http://i901.photobucket.com/albums/ac218/v8vixen1/P1030141.jpg)

This printed part was a great help in planning the machining steps. The transfer manifold consists a left and a right half, joined at the centre by a large pipe clamp. I decided to machine both sides joined together in order to maintain their correct alignment and to separate the left and right halves after all the machining was complete. I was able to design the hollow transfer manifold as two hollow shells to be bolted together with hidden screws. I would use the same grade of aluminium alloy for the manifold and for the fixing screws.


(http://i901.photobucket.com/albums/ac218/v8vixen1/P1030122.jpg)

Here you can see the first stage of machining the internal contours of the rear half of the transfer manifold. You can see the small lands which are designed to accept the hidden screws which will hold the two halves together. The process is the same as before, start with a big block of aluminium and convert most of it into small chips and hopefully an engine part will emerge.


(http://i901.photobucket.com/albums/ac218/v8vixen1/P1030127.jpg)

Part of the outside profile was also machined without disturbing the set-up. The wall thickness of the shell is about 1.5mm.


(http://i901.photobucket.com/albums/ac218/v8vixen1/P1030136.jpg)

The rear half of the transfer manifold is offered up to the high and low pressure compressors. So far, so good


(http://i901.photobucket.com/albums/ac218/v8vixen1/P1030295.jpg)
The front half of the trasfer manifold was machined in a similar manner to the first. The two halves were glued and bolted together using bolts made from the same material as the manifold. A lot of hand filing was then required to complete the outside shape of the assembled transfer manifold. The fixing screws blended in and were lost from view during this process. The low pressure (the far side) of the manifold was a sandwich of three parts while the high pressure side was made from two halves.


(http://i901.photobucket.com/albums/ac218/v8vixen1/P1030298.jpg)
The supercharger cooling fins were carefully filed away from the two compressor housings where the transfer manifold would eventually fit.


(http://i901.photobucket.com/albums/ac218/v8vixen1/P1030300.jpg)
The transfer manifold is made to fit snugly onto the two compressor housing before the mounting bolt holes are drilled.


(http://i901.photobucket.com/albums/ac218/v8vixen1/P1030343.jpg)
M3 cap head bolts are partially buried in the mounting flanges.

(http://i901.photobucket.com/albums/ac218/v8vixen1/P1030344.jpg)
The left and right halves have been separated at the centre point. The rubber band was used to hold the two halves in position while the mounting flanges were being worked on.
I was very relieved to have got this far without too many problems. The transfer manifold is a very prominent feature at the front of the engine and therefore needs to look right.  I would not have wanted to redo that part.
Time to relax and enjoy a nice cup of tea.

Mike this is an awesome build thumbs up.
Can you please tell me which glue you used? I thoght about this procedure on the bugatti waterpump.
Thanks michael
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 06, 2017, 03:04:15 PM
I used JB Weld epoxy and numerous small screws to hold the transfer manifold together. I made the screws (M2.0) from the same grade of aluminium as the manifold. The screws have long cylindrical heads which stick out above the manifold. You could easily do the same for your coolant pump.

The screws hold the parts together and the epoxy seals the joint. I then file the aluminium screw heads to blend in with the manifold. The screw heads become invisible.

I would prefer to use a two pack polyurethane instead of epoxy, it is slightly more flexible. Unfortunately, I cannot find any in small quantities in tubes.

Can you tell me about the aluminium solder you used to fabricate the Bugatti crankcase. What type do you use and there there any problems with it?

Hope you get the Bugatti running sweetly soon.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: michelko on February 06, 2017, 06:54:26 PM
Mike i used a rubbing solder. You have to melt the solder u d then scratch tith metalbrush or an screwdriver tip in the liquid solder. This rubbing breaks the oxide layer.
Unfortunately the solder has a different colour then the aluminium. Next time i will weld it.

Michael
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 06, 2017, 07:08:35 PM
Thanks Michael,

That solder sounds like our 'Technoweld'.
The guy demonstrating it at model shows is very clever and makes it look so easy. I am not so clever.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on February 06, 2017, 09:31:18 PM
Not to pester you Mike, but has your build been put on the backburner ?

I will not blame you if that is the case as I haven't been in my shop since July (too busy trying to make a living) ....

Best wishes

Per
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 06, 2017, 10:50:10 PM
Hello Per

The W165 is proceeding, but at a slow pace. I have had some very important family matters to attend to, which takes first priority.

I am actually further ahead than the build log would suggest. These days, I never seem to have spare time to write the build log or work at all the other things I would prefer to do.

Thanks

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: 90LX_Notch on February 07, 2017, 01:11:40 AM
Incredible work Mike.

-Bob
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 07, 2017, 10:05:03 AM
Thanks Bob,

At least it is easier to see and touch than your tiny Tiny

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on February 07, 2017, 10:52:33 AM
Hello Mike

I certainly understand that you prioritize family and also that it takes quite a bit of time to post a build log compared to just posting comments. It took me at least as much time to prepare a log with pictures post as the actual time I machined the parts on the few I have done so far.

Best wishes

Per
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 07, 2017, 11:31:37 AM
I am happy to say that things are improving for me on a personal front  and I can now devote more time to this build log.

The past two years have been a very difficult time for me. Thankfully that is almost over and the family can return to normality, whatever that is. During the hard times I would often run to my workshop and immerse myself in a little 'metal therapy' for an hour or two. There is nothing quite like it. Machining requires such total concentration and the exclusion of all outside pressures. What a great hobby we all share.

Another factor influencing the build log was the considerable amount of time require to prepare the images using 'Photo....it'. It was never the easiest or friendliest package to use and now they are issuing ransom threats to extort large sums of money from it's clients. Fortunately Ade has come to our rescue and provided MEM members with a very quick and easy to use alternative. Thanks for that Ade, much appreciated.

So on with the Mercedes W165 Build Log
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 07, 2017, 12:20:37 PM
Part 8     Superchargers Assembled

Here are some photos of the assembled two stage supercharger for the Mercedes Benz W165,   1.5 litre Grand Prix engine. There is still some detail work to do but I now know that the rotors fit and rotate freely and the various inlet and transfer manifolds all fit and connect where required.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040696~0.JPG)
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040695~0.JPG)
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040697~0.JPG)

You can see I have attached a pair of modified Walbro carburetors to the inlet manifold. I intend to replace their diaphragm fuel pumps with an engine driven fuel pump as the build proceeds. Those black pipes which snake all over the top of the blowers is part of the oil scavenge system. Excess oil is sucked away from the full size engine's rotor bearings by one of the many engine driven scavenge pumps.



(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040709.JPG)

In this overhead shot of the two stage blower. You can just make out the joint lines between the transfer manifold shells. The right hand (HP) manifold is in two parts and the left (LP) is in three parts. The wall thickness of the shells is about 1.5mm. The screws holding the manifold shells together were made from the same material as the shells and are filed flush to blend in perfectly. I have still to make the big pipe clamp which joins the left and right halves together.



(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040702~0.JPG)

The gears at the rear keep the two rotor lobes synchronized and prevent them touching. During the manufacturing process something has become magnetized. Could be the shafts or the keys or the nuts or either of the gears. The gears mesh perfectly and run smoothly but unfortunately sometimes small metal particles are attracted to the gears and interfere with their meshing. I need to find a way of permanently demagnetizing the gears. So I am looking out for one of those demagnetizing (degausing) gizmos that we used to use to clean the heads on reel to reel tape records way back in the 1960's.


The next part of the build log will describe the machining and manufacture of the Crankcases


Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: sco on July 07, 2017, 12:37:45 PM
Awesome stuff Mike!

Every year the Benz classic team come to the factory after the FoS to give us a private show and tell - they are very approachable so if you have some questions I can try and ask them next year.

Simon.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Stuart on July 07, 2017, 02:43:00 PM
Mike great work

Demagnetisers

I have one shown bottom left at this site they are small fits on your hand but it does the job, after all they are only a ac fed coil

https://www.cousinsuk.com/category/demagnetizers

It will not do a 150mm dia three jaw chuck  8)

Stuart
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on July 07, 2017, 02:50:54 PM
Incredible and beautiful.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on July 07, 2017, 04:25:15 PM
Mike!

I am so glad to see you back at this build!   It's inspiration!    I'm in a shop overhaul mode at the moment, so more space, and better utilization of it is under way...just got rid of 1000 pounds of stock that hasn't seen the light of day in 20 years....made up some space and more clean out to come

Keep em coming!    I have to get my head wrapped around the whole photo(*#(*@ thing.....trust me I have a LOT of pictures over there...

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 07, 2017, 06:38:03 PM
Hello Simon,

Mercedes Benz are usually reluctant to give away information that would help builders of replica engines and replica cars bearing the three pointed star. A few years ago they got the German Customs and Excise to impound several well made replicas of the famous Gull Wing sports car. The replicas were being passed off as the real deal, they were confiscated and ordered to be crushed. My model engine is 1/3 scale and could hardly be passed off as a full size M-B engine.

I could not afford to go to the Goodwood Festival of Speed this year, so missed the chance of meeting the Benz Classic Team, who look after and run the W165 . How well do you know Gert Straub (head of the engineering dept) or Manfred Oechsle ( the W165 engineer)? I would dearly like to get some modern photos of the Camshaft Drive Gear Chest at the rear of the engine and also photos of the Water Pump at the right front. Is there any chance you could ask Benz Classic on my behalf?

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: fumopuc on July 07, 2017, 08:00:19 PM
Hi Mike good to see you back in the shop. The engine pictures, impressive like always.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Art K on July 08, 2017, 02:54:14 PM
Mike,
The work looks great. I saw some of the cylinders & such from the Guilford show photos, very impressive. I am in the process of trying to decide what to do with Photo....et. I don't object to paying just putting my info out on an insecure site.
Art
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 14, 2017, 05:05:28 PM
Part 9        Crankcase

I was able to find a longitudinal and a traverse cross section drawings of the W165 engine in my copy of the British Intelligence Report number 1755 published in 1948. From these two cross section drawings I produced the 1/3 scale drawings in AutoCAD, from which I could work. The W165 crankcase was cast in magnesium and was of a fairly conventional 90 degree V8 layout with the added interest of the supercharger and accessories drives at the front end. At the rear, two outriggers bolted the engine to the chassis tubes The crankcase was quite robust in construction, which is probably due in part to the use of welded and fabricated cylinder blocks. The crankcase has to provide most of the engine's stiffness.

Another factor may be the speed in which the new engine and a new, smaller, race car was produced. The history books tell us that Mercedes undertook this feat of engineering in just eight months. Even working round the clock, it did not leave much time to design a completely new engine, produce the foundry patterns and commit them to the foundry to be cast in super lightweight magnesium. In order to achieve these time scales, the Mercedes engineers would have relied heavily on the existing designs and drawings for their highly successful 3 litre V12 engines. The new engine was reduced in length from 12 to 8 cylinders and slightly reduced in scale. The engineers also decided to include a significant bulge on the left hand side of the crankcase block. I assume this was intended to house the multiple oil pressure and oil scavenge pumps, which were favored in those days. In the event, the bulge was never used and the oil pumps were eventually located low down in the dry sump. A case of having to live with an early engineering decision?

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P10408~4.jpg)




I have no foundry facilities, so the decision was made to machine the crankcase from solid billets of 6084 T6 (HE30 TF) aluminium. I decided to make the crankcase in two halves, to be joined together on the centre line, by five M5 steel bolts passing through the main bearing webs. The heads of the bolts could be buried and later capped out of sight by aluminium plugs. The  two part construction allowed the undercuts inside the crankcase sides to be machined, these features would have been next to impossible to achieve if a single piece billet had be used.

The overall length of the 1/3 scale crankcase was 192 mm, the maximum X axis travel of my EMCO F1 mill was 200 mm (8 inches). With some very careful positioning of the billets, I would be able to machine both ends of the blocks and use a 8mm diameter cutter. A very tight fit, but do-able. 

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060854.JPG)

I realised there would be the need for multiple set-ups and numerous machining operations, so the first item to be made was a fixture plate with both dowel pins and the cross bolts to locate and relocate the billets. The fixture plate could be mounted at any necessary angle by using pairs of bolt-on angle plates.



(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040588.jpg)

A start was made by accurately drilling the bolt holes and dowel pin holes in all of the aluminium billets. Each block measured 8" x 4" x 2" and weighed 2.6 kg (5.8 lbs). The billets were then transferred to the fixture plate, which remained in place on the mill for the entire duration of the crankcase manufacture.




(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040592.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040593.jpg)

The machining started by milling out the interior detail of the crankcase. I used a 8 mm ball cutter to pocket out the space between the main bearing webs. The ball mill produced nice looking fillets where the cross webs meet the crankcase sides. The centre bearing and rearmost bearing webs are slightly wider than the intermediates.




(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040595.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040596.jpg)

The 45 degree slope under the cylinder face and the pocket for the supercharger gear drive appear next. The billet is beginning to reduce in weight already.




(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040598.jpg)

The semi-circular space for the main bearing is roughed out along the entire length of the embrio crankcase. The bearing locations will be line bored at a later date when the two sides of the crankcase are finally bolted together and all the removable bearing caps have been made and fitted. This delay will give the machined blocks time to stress relieve and settle. All that is required to do now is to repeat the above for the opposite side of the case and then again for my second crankcase.




(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040672.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040673.jpg)

These two views show the the left and right halves for two engines after the completion of this first stage of machining all the interior detail. A bucket-full of chips has been produced and there is plenty more still to be machined away before the job is complete.

This machining activity was my first use of LinuxCNC in anger. It was a fairly painless transition from my previous DeskNC controller to LinuxCNC. I was very impressed by the stability and reliability of LinuxCNC. The learning curve was not too steep and everyday I am discovering new hidden features. LinuxCNC only controls the machine,  it does not produce the tool path code. I still do that with DesKAM and by hand. I am not into 3D modelling yet, way above my pay scale. All my machining is done by pocketing or profiling (contouring) at a fixed depth. It's called 2.5D machining.

These images were hosted by Coppermine , generously provided for MEM use by Ade. Thanks Ade, it's a much nicer place than 'Photo....it'

Stay tuned.........

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on July 14, 2017, 05:50:07 PM
Incredible machining. Really enjoying following along.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on July 14, 2017, 07:30:22 PM
Glad to see you back on this amassing project Mike :praise2:

Are the halves milled as "perfect mirrors" of each other so far ?

If so, could you use a command that did it for you or was it manually done ?

Best wishes

Per
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 14, 2017, 07:52:03 PM
Hello Per,

I am further along with the project than with the build log. I am trying to catch up with actual progress with regular weekly postings.

The left and right side of the engine are similar but not identical, the left side bulges out much further. So no perfect mirror is possible. Also due to the peculiarities of the G-code tool command system, it is only possible to mirror straight line moves. You only need to change the sign (+ or -) of one axis to do the mirror. Unfortunately, that is not possible when circles, curves or arcs are involved. Then it is safest and easier to recreate the opposite side toolpath from the mirrored drawing. That can take quite some time to do and you still have to 'prove' the new toolpath by cutting metal. Can be a nervous time when you have already invested time and effort in the part being made.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on July 15, 2017, 12:20:53 AM
Looking good Mike!!!! New shop layout is starting to come together....I hope to get back out there soon....

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 15, 2017, 07:39:02 AM
Hi there Dave,

Thanks for looking in.

I heard about the major upheavals in you workshop, "out with the old and in with the new".
Nice that your young daughter could help with the new storage and furniture. That sort of help is priceless.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: michelko on July 15, 2017, 08:39:38 AM
 :praise2: very nice.

Michael
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 15, 2017, 08:54:22 AM
Hello Michael,

When it's finished, We can race it against your Bugatti, they were both from a similar era

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 21, 2017, 09:41:26 PM
Part 9B    Crankcase: roughing the outside

In the previous installment from Vixen's Den, I described the first steps of machining the inside of the crankcase from two very solid billets of aluminium. This week I will show some of the very long process of machining the outside of the billets, in the hope that an engine crankcase will emerge.
I started by bolting and clamping the two mating halves of the embryo crankcase together and securing them directly to the milling table. The positioning had to be precise as the two billets measure a fraction under 8" x 4" x 4" and the maximum travel of the mill's table is only 8" X 4". You don't want to hit the travel end-stops during the machining!

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040676.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040677.jpg)

With the crankcase inverted, I machined the features on bottom face of the crankcase. The main bearing  webs down to the bearing cap split line and the inside and outside profile of the sump gasket face. I drilled and tapped the main bearing stud/bolt holes and the sump screw holes during this set-up The sump face is a wide T section on the bottom of the crankcase casting and adds considerably to the stiffness of the final item. My initial Datum Points at the lower right corner of the billet are about to be machined away, I will need to reference off the jig plate during future machining.



(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040680.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040681.jpg)

With the individual crankcase halfs re-positioned on the jig plate I made a start at roughing out the side faces of the billets. I milled away a considerable amount of material at the front of the crankcase in 0.1" steps. The 30 degree downward facing flange for the engines auxiliary drive can be seen emerging. There is still a minimum of 20 thou. to be removed from all the roughed faces and obviously over 0.1" at the crests of each step.


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040689.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040693.jpg)

The 45 degree slopes for the cylinder base flanges were removed next. Again the excess material was removed in 0.1" by 0.1" steps from both sides. It is unbelievable to see the mountain of chips that were once part of the billets. On the top of the casing are the four apertures which will eventually become the air/oil mist separation plenum chambers, part of the crankcase breathing system. At the front the top flange for the supercharger is also emerging.



(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040688.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040692.jpg)


These last two photos summerise progress so far. A considerable amount of material has been removed from the initial aluminum bricks, the shape of the crankcase is starting to emerge. Many hours of machining are still required to refine the shape of all the external features, but confidence is growing that a true replica of the Mercedes W165 crankcase will eventually appear.

Stay Tuned

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on July 21, 2017, 09:48:39 PM
Beautiful.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on July 21, 2017, 11:40:30 PM
Nice work Mike!!!

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Sven on July 22, 2017, 05:57:13 AM
I am waiting kindly for the Crankshaft making.
Realy nice work.
I got an similar project

 Regards Sven
(Hamburg Germany)

Gesendet von meinem LG-H850 mit Tapatalk

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jo on July 22, 2017, 07:51:15 AM
 8)

I assume you will be taking the engine to the Bristol show in a couple of weeks so we can see your progress. (Bristol - Another show I can't go to :disappointed: )

Jo
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 22, 2017, 08:51:55 AM
Good morning Sven

Welcome to the MEM forum. We are a very friendly group from all over the world who share a common passion for making model engines. There is a special section for new members to introduce themselves and tell us about their interests and projects.
Making the crankshaft will be interesting. I have ideas to make a press together crankshaft and to use commercial ball races.

Regards

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Sven on July 22, 2017, 11:35:21 AM
Ok Mike
I will introduce myself soon on right place here
Best
Sven
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: michelko on July 22, 2017, 10:07:37 PM
Very impressive  :praise2:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: fumopuc on July 23, 2017, 06:50:11 AM
Hi Mike, thanks for showing the way you did it. I will following along and try to learn.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 29, 2017, 02:09:37 PM
Part 9C   Crankcase:  Starting to finish the outside surfaces

Thanks to all of you who have posted comments, you provide the encouragement for me to keep posting this build log

In the previous installment, I described how the crankcase billets were roughed out to remove surplus material and provide a basis for the finishing cuts. I will now describe the slow process of refining the external shape of the crankcase in a number of stages. As you can imagine it was a long slow process requiring many set-ups. Each set-up provided plenty of potential opportunities for false cuts and cock-ups. The problem being compounded by machining  away of all the initial datum faces during the roughing stages.

I made a start with the auxiliary drive enclosures at the front of the engine. These enclosures house two bevel gears, driven off the crankshaft, with the added complication of being inclined downward at 30 degrees on both sides of the crankcase. They will eventually drive the coolant water pump, the fuel pump and yet another oil scavenge pump.

I made up two 30 degree angle plates, to bolt under my jig plate. I find it much more convenient to use precisely machined angle plates than to fuss about with sine bars and shim blocks etc. The angled jig plate is bolted  to the mill table and indicated into the correct position. The crankcase halves are then attached, in turn, to the jig plate which provides good position repeat-ability during the machining stages. The rod sticking out at the front is located precisely at the apex of the bevel gears and is used as the new datum for all machining relating to the bevel gears.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040714.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040712.jpg)


The differences between the roughed and semi finished auxiliary drives can be seen in the next three photos. There is a limit to the amount of machining possible with my equipment, I do not have the software to do complex 3D machining. I am limited to 2.5D machining ( pockets and contours at differing depths) which leaves plenty of hand finishing with the Dremel and files to get to the final shape.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040717.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040719.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040724.jpg)



There are two prominent extensions on either side of the rear crankcase which form the rear engine bearers. I made these up as two separate pieces which bolt on to either side of the crankcase. The securing bolts are hidden inside the crankcase and are buried in the crankcase side walls. The large hole in the left side engine mounting block was there to allow the steering rods to pass through,

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040818.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040812.jpg)


Next, I cut the semi circular profile of the lower sidewalls. The left and right sides of the case are different. The right hand side is a continuous curved profile interrupted by the oil inlet pipe flange, The other side has that large bulge for the oil pumps. I used a 8mm ball nosed cutter, making repeated passes at 0.010" separation at different depths (Z axis) to produce the curved surfaces. Even at ten thou separation, the curved surfaces are not completely smooth, but that is easily sorted later with files and abrasive papers. You will notice I had to machine around the curved roots of the engine mounts. The engine mounting blocks had to be temporarily removed to allow access for the cutters

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040833.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040825.jpg)

Finishing the outside surfaces was a long, slow process. I hope to conclude the rest of the machining operations in the next installment from Vixen' Den.

Stay tuned.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Plani on July 29, 2017, 03:55:19 PM
I'm following your build too. That's some truly inspiring machining  :praise2: :praise2: :praise2:
And very interesting set ups  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Plani
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Hugh Currin on July 30, 2017, 12:32:02 AM
There is a limit to the amount of machining possible with my equipment, I do not have the software to do complex 3D machining. I am limited to 2.5D machining ( pockets and contours at differing depths) which leaves plenty of hand finishing with the Dremel and files to get to the final shape.

Mike:

It sure looks good, no matter how much hand finishing is needed. Amazing!

But how do you rough/finish these shapes? George builds a "step off sheet" and does the passes manually. (I don't know how he does, my mind would go numb leading to an error.) Do you pull points off the CAD drawing and hand code? Somehow fool the 2 1/2 D CAM into following the surface? Other? Following your build I thought you were using 3D profiling. Even more amazing if you are using 2 1/2D software.

Thanks.

Hugh
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 30, 2017, 11:58:41 AM
But how do you rough/finish these shapes? George builds a "step off sheet" and does the passes manually.

How do I produce those shapes? Hugh, That's a bit like starting off with the 64 dollar question, with no gentle build up.

Well some folks enjoy the intellectual challenge of the Times Crossword, I enjoy the challenge of sculpturing aluminium blocks to produce miniature replica engines. Both require a lot of thought and concentration

I am totally committed digital machining in my workshop. All my machines have been converted to CNC and all are now controlled by LinuxCNC. The only 'manual' input I have is the tail-stock hand wheels on my two lathes; and of course the door handle and lighting switches.

I am a long time user of AutoCAD. I do all my drawings in 2D, plan, side and end elevations and numerous cross sections. My 2 1/2D CAM software complements the 2D CAD drawings. There are now some excellent 3D CAD drawing packages and 3D CAM packages available. The are good, very good, but they are expensive; way above my pay scale and ability. Besides I don't think I have enough years left on this planet to become proficient in their use. I will stick with what I have and know how to use.

Consider the CNC lathe or CNC Mill to be a machine with a high accuracy built-in DRO and controlled via a keypad rather than hand wheels, or automatically via the computer. You control the slides and tool position either by manual keyboard input or by computer control. About 60% of my CNC lathe work is by manual input; just like a normal lathe. I jog the tool position from the keyboard rather than turning hand-wheels. The DRO tells me where I am and I can also observe the cutting action. With the CNC Mill only about 10% is manually controlled, the computer is the prime controller.

A 2 1/2D CAM tool-path generating program will produce a 3D shape, however it is limited to creating prismatic shapes i.e. shapes with vertical sides and flat bottoms. This process will be much like George's 'step-off sheet' of instructions. The two most important functions within a 2 1/2D CAM program being contour profiling and pocketing, one simply follows a given contour shape while the other also removes the material from inside the shape. Complex pseudo 3D shapes can be created by machining a successive series of contours or pockets. These tool-paths can be created from a series of drawing inputs or by manual editing (cut and paste) of previous lines of tool-path code.  The 45 degree stepped slope for the cylinder block faces were produced by editing, increasing steps of 0.1" in the Z axis while deducting 0.1" from the X or Y axes.

The CAD drawing is the prime input to the CAM tool-path generating program. The required shape of the pocket or contour is created on the CAD drawing usually by copying part of the drawing and erasing unwanted lines to leave only the desire outline  The outline shape drawing is then transferred to the CAM program which produces the tool-path instructions to machine that shape. The CAM program needs to know the tool diameter, depth and width of cut and the required feed rate. It is normal to add (edit) together several sets of tool-path instructions to create more complex shapes. Manual editing is often required to remove time wasting moves which only machine fresh air.

Wherever possible, I will position the work-piece so that the machining is normal to the face. I use accurate angle plates to alter the angular position of my jig plate to achieve this vertical alignment.

Curved surfaces are much more difficult to produce than prismatic pockets or contours. A ball nose cutter is generally used to produce the smoothest surface. The ball cutter is commanded to move in a series of close spaced contours, like the height contours on a map. Obviously the closer the contour line spacing, the smoother the surface. I aim for ten thou (0.01") separation which requires an enormous amount of contours to be created and then machined. The contour information comes from carefully constructed CAD drawing, the individual contours are processed by the CAM and added (edited) together.  Curved surfaces are very CAD drawing intensive and also require great concentration during the subsequent editing. The potential for small errors is high, so it is always a good idea to do a machining test on a scrap piece of material before you commit to your precious engine. I like to use a block of coloured perpex, plexiglass, or acrylic for the testing. Creating a curved surface tool-path is slow and time consuming, but sometimes this is the only way to produce a part or surface. This is one area where a good 3D drawing package with a STL file output would make life a lot easier.

There are other tricks you can employ. I will sometimes input the wrong tool diameter to subtly alter the size of a hole or pocket produced. If you declare the tool is say 2 thou smaller than it actually is, you will produce a slightly larger diameter hole, ideal when you want to fit a round peg into a round hole with a controlled clearance fit.

As I say in my signature: "It is the journey that matters, not the destination" and for me the challenge of tool-path programming is an important part of that journey.

Mike





Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Nick_G on July 30, 2017, 12:18:23 PM
.
These parts and this whole build are beyond awesomely-awesomeness.  :ThumbsUp:  :)

Nick
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Stuart on July 30, 2017, 12:20:42 PM
Mike have you had a look at fusion 360 its free for hobby users and you get the top end package

And yes it's a steep leaning curve it does support Linux CNC

It's a combined cad cam parametric job

Boy that engine is a work of art
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on July 30, 2017, 01:41:00 PM
Great right up Mike!    Love those parts!

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 30, 2017, 04:51:12 PM
Thanks everybody,

Stuart, I have had a quick look at Fusion 360. I know it is free to students and hobby users. However I decided the 'costs' would be too high.

Firstly I would need to invest in another computer with the latest Windoz OS and all the problems that now brings. Such a move would put me back into the clutches of brother Bill Gates, I prefer to be in control of my own data and my own destiny. Secondly, the learning curve, I would need to dedicate a considerable amount of  time to become proficient in a completely new CAD/CAM system and methodology. In the end, I decided my remaining time would be best spent building engines rather than studying and learning new software. So I will stick with what I already have and have plenty of experience using; it does work after all. Maybe ten years ago, but today it is perhaps too late to restart.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Stuart on July 30, 2017, 05:25:44 PM
Mike

Ok I forgot you are Linux man , I fully understand , I hate having a windoze pc for the mill but as I wanted to use a smoothsteper and mach4 ( I needed more IO than a parallel port can offer )

But its had so much of the Billy G nanny removed all it will do now is control the mill , so it's not a pic it's a Cnc controller

My fusion 360 runs on a 27 iMac but it's taken me a while to get to grips with it ,but now I can get the part into cad then to cam ok and produce the part I need

You may have Mercedes heritage after the engine when done for display

I am sure it's been asked before but will this be a fully operational engine when completed?

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 30, 2017, 05:46:03 PM
Stuart,

I sincerely hope the engines will capable of running after all the time spent building them. 

I propose to run the engine on straight Methanol without the nitro-benzine, petroleum ether and acetone additives that the Mercedes chemists mixed up for their racing fuel. I see the two stage supercharger as being a hindrance. Who needs 2.6 bar of boost on a model engine running on the bench? I have consciously increased the clearance gaps in the two Roots blowers to make them less efficient. I am also thinking about breaking in the new engine without a supercharger fitted, just a single carb connected to the inlet pipes. When the engine is running sweetly, then I can add the complication of the blowers. Someone once said ' try only one new idea at a time'

Just thinking aloud

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Stuart on July 30, 2017, 06:35:45 PM
Thanks Mike for the update
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Hugh Currin on July 30, 2017, 06:59:56 PM
Mike:

Sorry for the hard question. :-)

And thanks for the explanation. Using a combination of "hand coding" and 2D contours, fed through a CAM, is likely the best solution. As you say though, very labor intensive and prone to small errors. It takes me the longest time for the simplest "hand" generated code, and still likely end up with errors. I do better with a CAM program, but get nervous when cut and paste is involved. Have you tried CAMotics to test G-code programs? I've used it a little and it seems to be useful. (Linux program) I haven't found a good prototyping material that works for me. Most, including machinable wax, cost nearly as much as aluminum. I tried to make machinable wax which worked OK, but found "chips" get ground into the floor and hard to remove.

I have the same dilemma regarding 3D CAD and CAM packages. I'm also using Linux exclusively and am avoiding getting a Windows box. I haven't found a native Linux package that looks good, at any price. There are some projects out there to create one but they are in their infancy. CamBam has the start of profiling but it's rudimentary and hard to use.

I tend to use "manual" milling as much as generating a program. I use MDI commands a lot. I have trouble stopping at a given point, especially with a digital readout. MDI commands allow precise motion one command at a time. I'm still getting use to my Sherline CNC lathe but similar so far. Also like the jog a certain distance (0.10", 0.010", 0.001" etc), very nice for setting up a job.

I use VariCAD for my CAD package. It has some nice 3D functionality but not like to really high end packages. It is native to Linux and I do like it. It does have a STL output but I haven't looked into the format of those files. That may be a possible scheme for profiling.

In CamBam there is  a "Roughing Clearance" (works roughing and finishing) that leaves, or takes away, a given amount from the specified boundary. I find this easier than changing the tool diameter. So many ways to do things.

Absolutely magnificent work on the engine. Even more so now that I know you're using 2 1/2D software. I will continue to learn from you.

Thanks again.

Hugh
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 30, 2017, 08:20:11 PM
Hello Hugh,

It works two ways, I learn from you and you learn from me. You showed me the way with the Intel D525MW mini computer and the shaft encoder for the lathe. Hopefully, together we can also spread the CNC gospel to others on this wonderful MEM forum.

Actually I very rarely hand code, I tend to edit or modify the code generated by the CAM program if and when required. Mostly I use the code straight from the CAM. I use DesKAM (don't think it is still available to buy) which allows me to visualise the tool-path. The tool-path visualisation in LinuxCNC AXIS is also very good, you can view the proposed tool-path from any plane as well as in 3D. Either or both allow you to see any glaring errors and to correct them in time.

My AutoCAD and DesKAM are on a Windoze machine. I still run under Windows XP, which is regarded by many as the best and most reliable of brother Bill's offerings. Since XP Windoze has gone downhill fast. I have found nothing comparable in native Linux.

Yes, the LinuxCNC MDI command is very powerfull, especially the ability to machine up to a given point. Did you know that you can enter/copy several command lines into the MDI box. They are stacked and are worked through in sequence. For instance you can machine to a given point, lift the tool and then return to a starting point to await your next depth command. Another trick I learned is to peck-drill deep holes using the jog function. Jogging downward in five thou (0.005") breaks the chips efficiently, there are do long stringers attempting to seize the drill in the hole.
 

The trick of amending the true tool diameter is intended as a way of refining the diameter of a hole, in much the same way as making a small adjustment to a traditional boring head. Most CAM programs, even the basic low cost packages, offer a roughing clearance option. Over the years I have found ten thou (0.01") to be a nice comfortable amount of material to leave for the finishing pass. Works for aluminium, mild steel and brass.

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on August 01, 2017, 09:30:37 PM
Splendid as ever  :praise2:  :praise2: The coffee cup gives a good guide to the size.

I am stuck at the manual machining level for much the same reason you are staying with 2/2.5D. At the moment I don't have the time to invest in the learning required  ::)
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 01, 2017, 09:35:46 PM
Hi Roger

Thanks.

That coffee cup also sums up my mood at the time.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Art K on August 02, 2017, 03:08:35 AM
Mike,
Still following along. Looking great as well. Until Hugh chimed in I didn't realize you were not using 3D cam. Having a Tormach mill with the capability to do more than I am able makes that seems like a lot of work.  Sometimes I run it an inch high, make sure it's doing what it should (especially on a long part) then stop rewind the program drop it to Z0 & run it for real. I don't tend to use a scrap test block. I have the jog controler with the turn dial for +or- moves and this is real handy. I do tend to do a lot of manual and mdi moves. Sometimes that is just easier than setting up a program. I'm with you on the learning curve though, it's taken me a while to get this proficient with what I have and don't want to start over at ground zero with something else.
Art
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: mikemill on August 02, 2017, 10:04:29 AM
Mike

I too am following your amazing project, Hugh was asking what material to use to test programs, I use MDF, I glue stacks of 18mm to emulate a billet, it cuts cleanly although  it get a bit furry in the middle of the sheet. Point being it’s cheap and readily available, it has proved invaluable in proving the valve port angles on the Triumph cylinder head.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 02, 2017, 11:23:29 AM
Hello Art and Mike

Thanks for dropping by, it's good to have a chat.

Art, You have a Tormach mill, are they as good as everyone says they are? I would dearly like one to replace my small EMCO F1 mill, the 8" x 4" table travel can be limiting. When you add to the purchase price, the shipping costs to get it to the UK, then add a further 20% import tax on top, well, it just ain't going to happen. Do you have the Mach 3 or Pathpilot control software? Pathpilot is pure LinuxCNC but with a better and machinist optimised display screen. Underneath they are the same software.

Did I tell you that my EMCO F1 originally belonged to Her Majesty's Prison Service. It was used in a vein attempt to retrain the prison inmates for a better life. There were some very 'tough nuts' in Parkhurst Prison. When the little used machines were sold off, I was the lucky guy who got them. Since then I have replaced the steppers and drivers with more modern stuff from China and converted to LinuxCNC. I have also built a stepper rotary table and a 4th Axis unit based on a miniature lathe.

I also have a jog controller with a digital handwheel. I cannot get on with it. I much prefer to tap on the keyboard. I now have an index finger with the speed of a woodpecker.

Like you, I will normally test run new tool-path code by machining fresh air before I commit to the metal. Only once or twice have I machined a test piece and then it was to check out some complex pseudo 3D shapes with lots of hand code/editing.

Mike, I have been following your Triumph build with great interest. One problem with MDF and also to a lesser extent, my preferred Acrylic/Perspex/Plexiglass, is that these cheap substitutes can be very abrasive. I have found that MDF will wear HSS tooling faster than aluminium. Ceramic and carbide tooling is much harder and are not effected in the same way. Years ago, my previous company decided to test run a large radar dish program using a glued stack of chipboard......And you cannot find a less suitable test material than chipboard. They only got half way through the test, the chipboard was so abrasive it destroyed the cutters.

Lets go and make metal chips

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Art K on August 02, 2017, 12:44:28 PM
Mike,
I like the Tormach and have found it is generally capable of more than I.  :-\ I still have mach3 installed but am in the process of changing to PathPilot. I gave the specs to my local computer shop and he's gonna check into building a used computer for me.
Oh yeah, I went over to Tormach with a trailer and picked mine up.
Art
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 02, 2017, 01:12:32 PM
Oh yeah, I went over to Tormach with a trailer and picked mine up.

Oh, how I wish.

Pathpilot uses LinuxCNC. LinuxCNC is distributed under an 'open source' licence agreement, so Tormach are obliged to share their Pathpilot software under the same agreement. They are NOT obliged to give details of the proprietary changes they made to the software (display screen etc) for their machines. I obtained a copy of Pathpilot from Tormach, The good people on the LinuxCNC forum helped me make some changes so it now sort of runs with my non-Tormach machines.

I like the Pathpilot operator interface, much more machinist friendly than LinuxCNC's Axis display.

The thing I discovered is that Pathpilot needs a much faster and higher spec computer than that required for LinuxCNC, That's strange since they are running basically the same core software, it must be the graphics for the new display which requires the extra computing power.

I do not know what specification your computer shop are building to. Best to be careful and check with Tormach first. Please let me know, as it may help me get my Pathpilot up and running.

Regards

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Art K on August 02, 2017, 02:06:18 PM
Mike,
I have a tech sheet from Tormach with specs for what they are sure works. When I'm home from work I'll forward that to you.
Art
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 05, 2017, 05:03:07 PM
Part 9D       Crankcase: the final machining stages

In this installment from the Vixen's Den we reach the final stages of machining the crankcase, before the long process of hand finishing those parts which could not be reached by the machine tools.

The engine's oil breather system is located on the top of the crankcase between the cylinder banks. The air from within the crankcase, laden with oil mist droplets, is expelled upwards into the plenum chambers. In the chambers the air velocity suddenly drops, causing the entrained oil droplets to condense and fall back into the bottom of the crankcase. I started by milling the internal details of the cover plates.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040850.jpg)


Here the cover is temporaly bolted to one crankshaft half prior to machining the first cylinder face

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040857.jpg)


The right half of the crankcase is bolted to a 45 degree angle plate and indicated to be square. The cylinder face is faced off flat to the finished dimension, then the cylinder base flange outline was profiled. The outlet ports for the crankcase breathing system are becoming visible.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040868~0.jpg)


Slightly out of sequence, I know. The top of the gear-case has some detail added. The water coolant transfer passage, from one side of the engine to the other, has the pipe flange machined.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1040858.jpg)


The two bumps which define the outside of the auxiliaries bevel drive are machined next. The outside shape is a series of contours spaced at 10 thou (0.01") intervals. They took a long time to hand code, so I did a trial cut on a block perspex (acrylic) to prove to myself that there were no glaring errors in the tool path. It was a nervous time when I started on the crankase, The shell thickness of the housing was only 1/16" (1.5mm) around the previously machined internal cavity. I feared that at any moment the ball cutter would break through and the whole crankcase would be ruined. My luck held for another day. Measure twice, cut once they say, I must have done that a dozen times before starting this particular cut.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1050058~0.jpg)


There were still a few tricky bits of machining to complete before the two crankcase halves are finally joined and finished. Two oilways for the waste oil scavenge system need to be drilled down the centre of the spine which separates the crankshaft space from the oil breather plenums. The oilways are 3mm in diameter and over 4" (100mm) deep. There was a risk that the long thin drill would wander off course and break out in some unwanted location.

I mounted the crankcase vertically against a robust cast iron angle plate. I also needed to raise the mill head another 4 inches to allow for the very long drill. I used a 1/2" plate with offset holes to raise the mill head high above the mill table, there was only just enough power lead to reach the motor when the head was raised to full height. Got lucky again.

The technique I use when drilling long thin holes is to start off with a centre cutting end mill of the correct diameter and drill as deep as that mill cutter allows. This accurately positioned hole then guides the drills that follow more accurately than if I had started with a centre drill. Accurate alignment of the start and frequent clearing of the drill flutes is key to an accurate deep drilled hole. I follow the end mill with a new stub drill, then a new jobbers length drill and progress to the longest drill. I always try to have the minimun of unsuported drill between the chuck or collet and the work-piece. Minimising this distance also minimises the possibility of the drill bending in the open air and with it the risk of the long drill deviating off course. Retracting the drill every 0.1" to 0.2" is an essential part of the operation, a squirt of WD40 down the hole helps lubricate and clear the drill chips. I always 'peck drill' which breaks the chip into very short lengths, it is the long stringers which can jamb in the flutes and break a drill deep in the hole.

Well, I was carefull and got lucky again. I drilled four holes over 4" deep and estimate all were within 0.020 thou (0.5mm) of true.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1050010.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1050011.jpg)


Finally it was time to bolt the two crankcase halves together and finish the last remaining cylinder face. I made sets of special bolts out of high strength aluminium alloy (HE15). the bolts were made well over length with tommy bar holes to get them real tight. I used plenty of JB Weld epoxy to seal the joint faces and grout the bolts in place. The top cover received the same treatment. I gave the epoxy several days to fully cure.

The excess bolts heads were sawn off and the assembled crankcase was mounted against the vertical angle plate and the last cylinder face was faced off and the flange contoured in the same way as the first. The aluminium bolt heads were almost invisible after the cylinder face was machined.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1050054~0.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1050056.jpg)


The final machining operations were to make and fit the clutch bell housing flange to the rear of the crankcase. The rear flange plate outline shape was profiled then attached to the rear of the assembled crankcase by more aluminium bolts and JB Weld epoxy. The crankcase was again mounted against the vertical angle plate and the internal detail was milled into the flange plate. When completed, the aluminium bolts were again invisible.


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/WP_20151012_001~0.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1050057.jpg)

That's as far as I can get with the machining. From here on it's over to the Dremel and Swiss files to smooth and blend the surfaces that could not be reached with the machine tools. It has been a long slog to get his far, about 80% of the billets I started with have been reduced to chips. The hand finishing will be a well earned rest from standing in front of the milling machine for endless hours.

Next time I will have finished with the crankcase and about to commence on the next items to be made.

Stay Tuned

Mike


Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: simplyloco on August 05, 2017, 05:20:07 PM
Astonishing work. I didn't realise there was that much talent not ten miles from me! I'll be over...
John
PS. And I thought my Brit loco was nice until I saw this thread!
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: michelko on August 15, 2017, 02:10:59 PM
Holy cow
very impressive  work
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: mikecole7 on August 15, 2017, 02:17:32 PM

               Excellent work Mike. You a master with CNC.
               See you at Bristol show

            Mike   
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 15, 2017, 02:58:00 PM
Mike and everybody,

I'm realy looking forward to the Bristol Show this weekend. I hope to meet up with all of the usual suspects. Call in at the Internal Combustion Engine Builders stand and say hello.

Unfortunately, I don't think Dr Jo will be able to make it this year.

CNC does not make it easier, but it does allow you to consider more complex shapes.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jo on August 15, 2017, 03:01:48 PM
Unfortunately, I don't think Dr Jo will be able to make it this year.

:wallbang:  :'(  :disappointed:

You've never forgiven me for putting you title on your badge have you Dr Mike  :lolb:

Jo
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 15, 2017, 03:05:00 PM
Dr Jo,
Ha ha, We all have our guilty secrets. :LittleDevil:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jo on August 15, 2017, 04:11:28 PM
Dr Jo,
Ha ha, We all have our guilty secrets. :LittleDevil:

Mike

I must be getting  :old: because I don't remember having any  :noidea:.

Jo

P.S. What's the point of having guilty secrets if you can't remember them  :-\
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 15, 2017, 04:25:16 PM
We don't get old  :old:        We just mature :wine1: like fine wine.

How are you feeling? Getting stronger by the day, I hope.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jo on August 15, 2017, 04:29:18 PM
How are you feeling? Getting stronger by the day, I hope.

Mike

My tummy is feeling a bit sore from being shaken up in someone's Disco on Sunday :ShakeHead: but two gentlemen are trying to make it better by offering me model engine castings, so it would seem my luck may be in :naughty:

Jo
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Bluechip on August 15, 2017, 04:42:42 PM

P.S. What's the point of having guilty secrets if you can't remember them  :-\


Erasing legacy guilty secrets is Mother Nature's way of making room for new ones ..  :ThumbsUp:

Dave.   ( Much fortified by 2 x 500ml cans of Becks.  :DrinkPint:   Life feels almost tolerable ).
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: 90LX_Notch on August 15, 2017, 05:51:09 PM
Outstanding work Mike.  I'm just blown away.

-Bob
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: BlueRock on August 21, 2017, 10:11:11 AM
Mind blown.... incredible work Mike! Thanks for posting :)
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on August 21, 2017, 10:23:30 AM
Fabulous work Mike!!!

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Twizseven on August 21, 2017, 12:12:18 PM
Mike,

It was a pleasure meeting you at the weekend and seeing your stunning work.  In fact all the work on the ICEBA stand was phenomenol.  It was good talk to Mike Cole and Eric as well.  Maybe if I manage to ever finish the Anzani 'Y' engine I might be able to join your table.  It was also nice to meet and speak to Cherry Hill.

Colin
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 21, 2017, 12:40:04 PM
Thanks for all your kind words and encouragement.

The Internal Combustion Engine Builders Group (ICEBG) members always make a point of being there on the stand, to talk about and discuss our engines. It's always 'open house'. We try to explain and try to encourage others.

ICEBG is not a club, you do not have to join or pay subs. We only exist to obtain a display table at the various shows in the South of England. Just turn up with your I/C engine, whether part finished or complete and we will make table space for you.

Speaking with Cherry Hill is always an honor, like an audience with the Queen.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 21, 2017, 04:42:53 PM
Part 10    Finishing the Crankcase and starting on the Oil Pumps


In this installment from 'Vixen's Den' you can see the hand finishing of the two crankcases and a start is made on the elaborate oil pump arrangement located off the rear main bearing cap and located in the dry sump.

I use a long flexible extension with my Dremel to remove all the unwanted ridges and blend all the corners what cannot be easily reached by my milling machine. I follow the Dremel work with a selection of Swiss files and pattern makers rifler files. Fine grades of 'wet and dry' abrasive papers are used to smooth and refine the surfaces. I also use disks of 'Scotchbrite' mounted on the Dremmel to frost the surface to an even matt finish. When I am satisfied with the surfaces, I can give the crankcase a light grit blasting with fine alumina grit to create the appearance of a casting. The machined surfaces are carefully masked off and protected with painters masking tape to preserve their 'as machined' surface finish.

I made a start on the Main Bearing Caps. As you can see, there are five and they are all different. The rear bearing cap also carries the battery of oil pumps, which are located in that bulge to one side of the crankcase. 

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1050161.JPG)


I must have misread my own drawing which resulted in some scrap parts, no, lets call them 'test pieces'. I had inadvertently machined a pump cavity where there should have been a plain bearing. Just look at that main bearing bolt passing through the pump cavity in the rearmost bearing cap....... Dohhhh!

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1050162.JPG)


Mercedes have a strange fascination for multiple pumps of all descriptions. In the sump, there is a battery of oil pumps to provide fresh oil for the bearings and several scavenge pumps to scavenge (suck away) the used oil and return it to the external oil tank via the oil filter and oil cooler. You have seen the oil filter mounted on the side of the two stage supercharger. In addition to this set of pumps, there is another scavenge pump for the supercharger, a fuel pump and the main coolant water pump mounted externally at the front of the engine. And, if you like, you can add the two stage supercharger as another huge air pump.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1050335.JPG)

The sump oil pumps consist of a series of simple gear pumps driven from a common shaft. In each pump section there are four oval oil transfer passages outside the pump cavity. Passages are milled into each pump section to connect the pump cavity to the appropriate oil transfer passage. Thin bronze plates divide the pump sections and help control the flow of oil into and out of the battery of pumps.

There are fifteen parts to a pump housing set and each part is slightly different to it's neighbor.  It seemed like a good idea to get a bit organised. I have yet to summon the courage to make and fit the pump spur gears, there are just so many of them.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1050323.JPG)


The bronze block at the front of the pump set is the manifold which connects the various pumps to the external pipework. The first pump section supplies pressure oil to the five main roller bearings. The second section supplies pressure oil to the plain bearings of the four camshafts . The third section scavenges (sucks) the used oil from the front of the dry sump through a strainer, which is yet to be made. The fourth pump section sucks oil from the rear of the dry sump through the integral strainer. The fifth pump section sucks used oil from the four cam boxes and also from the clutch bearing housing at the rear of the engine.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1050325.JPG)


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1050326.JPG)


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1050329.JPG)


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1050376.JPG)

Fresh, cooled oil enters the crankcase through the pipe flange on the right hand side of the case. All of the scavenged (used) oil is pumped out of the crankcase through the angled flange on the left side. You can also see the individual oil connections to each of the main bearing caps.


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1050349.JPG)

As with the original engines, everything will connected by large and small diameter copper pipes soldered to the individual flanges. I will be waiting until later in the build  before I make and fit these pipe connections. They look like a snake pit and will be easily damaged if they are fitted to early in the build.


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1050331.JPG)

There are times when I wish that Mercedes Benz could have done things in a simpler fashion. But I must keep reminding myself that in 1939 these engines and cars were at the very cutting edge of motor racing technology, no effort (or expense) would have been spared if it produced a fraction more power.

Stay tuned

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: sco on August 21, 2017, 04:52:47 PM
Awesome attention to detail Mike  :ThumbsUp:

Simon.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Steamer5 on August 21, 2017, 04:59:50 PM
Hi Mike,
That's just gob smacking!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 21, 2017, 05:02:53 PM
Kerrin,

It's five in the morning right now for you in NZ!!!!!! don't you guys sleep?


Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Steamer5 on August 21, 2017, 05:40:03 PM
Hi Mike,
 Well it 04:40..... I work shift work for my sins days then nights!.....Woops sorry mentioned that 4 letter word! Allows more than 2 days off most of the time! Still doesn't mean I get enough workshop time.......working on that!!

Reading what everybody's up to helps fill out the small hours.

Amazed at what you are up to on this build!

Cheers Kerrin

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: fumopuc on August 21, 2017, 08:37:27 PM
Hi Mike, very impressive.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 21, 2017, 09:20:47 PM
Hello Achim

Do they still have that fabulous 5.6 litre straight 8, W125 Silver Arrows car on display in the Mercedes Benz showroom on the corner of Odeonsplatz in Munich?
I saw it there a few years ago, so it may have since been returned to the Classic Centre Museum in Stuttgart.

Regards

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 21, 2017, 11:46:05 PM
 :o
Wow. That's about all I can say.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: fumopuc on August 22, 2017, 10:16:57 AM
Hello Achim

Do they still have that fabulous 5.6 litre straight 8, W125 Silver Arrows car on display in the Mercedes Benz showroom on the corner of Odeonsplatz in Munich?
I saw it there a few years ago, so it may have since been returned to the Classic Centre Museum in Stuttgart.

Regards

Mike

Hi Mike, to be honest I haven´t been down town for a couple of years, so I couldn’t tell you.
But for your next visit in Munich, this could be an interesting place to go.
https://www.bmwgroup-classic.com/en/building.html
I have not been there, since they moved into their new (old) building, but I have seen a lot of the historic cars including an old aero plan engine in their old building, because this was very close to my office desk. 


Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: BlueRock on August 26, 2017, 12:56:20 AM
Inspiring work Mike!
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on September 02, 2017, 08:42:21 PM

Just a quick update on progress.

There we see one of the two stage superchargers mounted onto the finished crankcase.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1050491.jpg)

The blower looks huge and completely dominates the crankcase. The cylinder blocks will be the next stage in this build.

Stay tuned

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on September 02, 2017, 10:26:59 PM

Mike, I wish I had the words to give you a worthy compliment but I am speechless looking at your work.

Thomas
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on September 02, 2017, 10:45:15 PM
That looks awesome Mike!!!!

Dave

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: b.lindsey on September 02, 2017, 11:20:37 PM
Totally awesome!!! Great picture too Mike.

Bill
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Art K on September 03, 2017, 01:11:23 AM
Mike,
Just checking in, those assembled crankcases look great. Just as an aside, I think my first multi cylinder when I decide what that is will have significantly fewer oil pumps. :mischief:
Art
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on September 03, 2017, 09:10:08 AM
Art,

I totally agree with you on the number of oil pumps. Most folk just use one big oil pump in the oil pan (sump).

However, technical complexity and high performance engines are so much part of the Mercedes Benz DNA, they will do whatever it takes to gain 1/2% more performance over their competitors. It was true for the  'Silver Arrows' Grand Prix cars back in the 1930's and it remains true with today's F1 race cars, nearly eighty years later

Watch today's F1 race from Monza if you can and you may see what I mean.

Bill, did you notice the all time record for people on-line was broken last night. Well done.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: mikemill on September 03, 2017, 11:37:14 AM
Mike
Your work is exquisite, I thought the chap who built the ¼ scale Merlin some 30 years ago set the standard for model IC engines, but I think you are going to surpass that with your Merc.
Could you explain the process of getting that lovely matt finish on the ali.
Thanks

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on September 03, 2017, 03:14:02 PM
Mike,

We all build our engines to the best of our individual abilities. We do it to satisfy our own creative instincts, and  that's all that really matters. Barrington (Barry) Hares is (was) in a class of his own. His RR Merlin was exceptional, his next engine, a RR Eagle was even finer still.

I use are several techniques to surface finish aluminium parts.

Mostly I use Scotchbright discs mounted in the Dremel to lightly frost machined surfaces, it polishes out and quickly removes any machine tool marks leaving a pleasing frosted finish.

For simulating castings, I use a grit blasting cabinet and a fine Alumina sand media. You can adjust the finished texture with different grades of media. The surface texture will be granular and the colour of the aluminium will darken with time, as the surface slowly oxidises. I mask off those machined surfaces that do not require the sand blast treatment, with painters masking tape.

Before final assembly, I often chemically etch the surfaces with 'Alubrite'. It is a cocktail of strong acids which imparts a very durable pearl-like finish. A bit like an anodised finish but without the need for electricity.

I never polish or buff the surface to a mirror finish. To my mind,  a mirror finish detracts from rather than adds something to a scale model engine.

Hope this helps

Mike


Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on September 08, 2017, 06:15:43 PM
Part 11  The Cylinder Blocks

The cylinder blocks are going to be the next items to make. They will add substance to the whole engine so that it’s overall size and shape can be appreciated. Like everything on this engine, the cylinder blocks will be far from easy and straight forward to design and manufacture.

Mercedes Benz were well experienced in the design and manufacture of lightweight welded cylinders blocks for aero engines, dating back to the first world war. Although separate cylinder engines may have lacked the rigidity of the cast block engine as used by their arch rival Auto Union, welded cylinders were used in all the Mercedes Silver Arrows Grand Prix cars built during the 1930’s.

A similar construction was used on all the MB race engines of that period, from the W125 straight 8 of 5.6 litres to the diminutive W165 V8 of only 1.5 litres. This welded cylinder block construction was even carried through and used on the first of the W196 cars driven by Stirling Moss and Fangio in the 1950's. Later cars had cast blocks.

Cast steel cylinder heads were directly welded to individual cylinders The individual cylinders and their non detachable heads were then welded to a substantial base plate, two cam shaft plates were added to join the heads together. The water jacket was then formed by welding thin pressed steel stampings over all the cylinders. The cylinders were bored to size when all the welding was complete, the distortion due to all that hot work must have been considerable.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/15591328_1368411676536638_1899407223159042440_o~0.jpg)
This is a modern full size recreation of one of the all-welded cylinder blocks for the 5.6 litre W125 straight eight Grand Prix engine of 1935. What an incredable feat of welding. Photo is curtesy of Crossthwaite and Gardner

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/11145148_1017946148249861_580463687454880431_o_28129~0.jpg)
There are the pattern and casting for one of the four valve cylinder heads for the W125 engine. Photo is curtesy of Crossthwaite and Gardner

I briefly considered a similar welded construction but quickly realised my lack of welding ability would not lead to successful 1/3 scale cylinder blocks. I started on a welding refresher course but did not succeed in getting past step 1.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/normal_welding_disc.jpg)


I therefore completely redesigned the cylinder blocks so that they could be machined rather than welded. The challenge was to create the external appearance of the welded cylinders while providing the necessary water jacket and cylinder head cooling passages. The four cylinder heads and water ways would be machined from a single block of aluminiuim The four cylinders would then screw into the heads sealing a separate machined water jacket in place.

A start was made on the water jacket. A 8" x 2" x 1.5" aluminium billet was secured in the mill vice and the inside of the water jacket was milled out. The outside profile was also roughed out, leaving a thin 2 mm wall to the water jacket. A lot more work would be required at a later stage,  to create the corrugations on the outside, to resemble those of the welded water jacket.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060264~0.jpg)



The water jacket was flipped over so that the cylinder details could be machined into the base flange.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060303~0.jpg)



The outline of the base flange was then profiled and all the mounting bolt holes drilled.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060304~0.jpg)


Here the  water jackets are offered up to the embryo cylinder heads to check for fit.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060563~0.jpg)


I will conclude the water jacket machining saga in the next installment from Vixen's Den

Stay tuned

Mike


Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on September 08, 2017, 06:24:49 PM
Enjoyable and instructive!!! 


Watching along.....

Dave

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on September 08, 2017, 06:43:39 PM
This is like looking through the Victoria Secrets catalog: mouth hanging open and dreaming  :cheers: :naughty:. Magnificent machining.

Cletus
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on September 08, 2017, 07:12:09 PM
Hay Cletus

Ha Ha, At least we did not catch you looking through the Ann Summers catalog

Cheers

Mike :LittleDevil:

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on September 08, 2017, 08:29:23 PM
Had to Google it, but, same effect  :lolb: :lolb:

Cletus
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Dave Otto on September 09, 2017, 12:51:29 AM
Impressive work Mike!
I'm really enjoying the whole project.

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Art K on September 10, 2017, 01:21:09 AM
Mike,
I just caught your latest installment. Looking at the welded cylinder and having a grandfather who was a welder. I can appreciate the skill of the man who welded that MB cylinder and head. I can also see myself in welding step 1. :lolb: Great workaround to an engineering problem.
Art
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on September 16, 2017, 06:01:48 PM
Part 11B  The Water Jackets

In the previous installment from Vixens Den, we had reached the stage that the water jackets were finish machined on the inside, the base flange was machined and the mounting holes drilled. The outside of the jacket being only roughed to shape.

You will recall that on the full size cylinder blocks, the water jacket consists of thin pressed steel sheets welded in place around the cylider assembly. The lower section of the water jacket had a distinct corrugated shape to allow for expansion. I have attempted  to create this corrugated appearance with a 4.0mm ball mill cutting to a depth of 1.0mm, with a lot of hand filing to complete the shaping. This left a bare 1.0 mm of wall thickness for the water jacket, so the chances of accidentally braking through were quite high.

Each water jacket was carefully positioned in the machine vice so that the individual corrugations could be added. The upper corrugations were reasonably straightforward, running the full length of the water jacket and curving around the the centre line, at each end. The lower two corrugations were much more interesting, as they followed the contour of the individual cylinders thereby forming three large undercuts.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060757.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060759~0.jpg)


The engine driven water pump delivers fresh coolant the water jackets through an external pipe welded to the water jacket . The fresh coolant is delivered equally to each cylinder via a long tapering pipe through a series of holes cut into one side of the water jacket. The external pipes of the model engine are to be bolted in place rather than welded.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060763.jpg)


Here we can see two of the water jackets before and after the corrugations were machined. There is not much of the original aluminium billet left by this stage.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060762~0.jpg)


The external water pipes were externally taper turned and drilled with different diameter drills to create the taper on the inside. The eight mounting holes in the pipe were drilled and tapped M3.0. One side of the external pipe was then milled away along the joint face with the water jacket. The angle of this cut was carefully calculated so the intersection of the cut resulted in parallel sides which exactly matched the side of the water jacket.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060898.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060899.jpg)


The exterior machining on the water jacket was cleaned up with small files and wet-n-dry abrasive papers to create an acceptable simulation of the steel pressings. The external water pipe will be joined to the water jacket with a row of eight stainless steel button head M3.0 screws. The screws and the joint face are to be sealed with either JB Weld epoxy or a two-pack flexible Polyurethane elastomer, if I can locate some. I would much prefer to use the Polyurethane because of it's inherent flexibility. I also propose to use this material to seal the water jacket to the cylinder heads when the time comes.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060900.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060901.JPG)


In the next installment, a start will be made in the cylinder heads.

So stay tuned.

Mike


Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Nick_G on September 16, 2017, 06:33:34 PM
.
Wowzers.!  :ThumbsUp: :)


Nick
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on September 16, 2017, 08:52:14 PM
Very impressive  :praise2:

Quote
This left a bare 1.0 mm of wall thickness for the water jacket, so the chances of accidentally braking through were quite high.

OK - now you are into nail biting territory  :insane:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on September 17, 2017, 09:18:40 AM
OK - now you are into nail biting territory  :insane:

Hi Admiral,  Most parts of this project take me into that territory

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on October 23, 2017, 05:40:40 PM
Part 11C  Cylinder Heads

There has recently been lots of steam engine stuff posted on the forum. I thought it was about time to post another 'fix' for the petrol head junkies out there.

The next items to be created were the four cylinder heads. Each head contained four cylinders, each of which were fitted with 4 valves inclined at an included angle of 56 degrees to form a penthouse combustion chamber. Each combustion chamber being surrounded by a water jacket. Apparently the 56 degree valve angle was the maximum which would allow the individual valves to removed and replaced from the combined welded cylinder/ combustion chamber.

Four 8" x 4" x 3" aluminium billets were faced off and the central cleft between the inlet and exhaust valves machined. On each head, two 3mm diameter holes were drilled the full length of each embryo cylinder head. The holes were drilled 4" deep from either end of the billet using the method described in earlier installments. Again, luck was with me and all the holes lined up perfectly. These long holes interconnect the various parts of the cylinder heads water pockets. I decided to make these drillings at an early stage before much work was undertaken. It would be easier to redo the drillings at this stage if there had been a problem.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060562.JPG)


The interface with the previously made water jacket was machined next and trial fitted
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060563.JPG)


This is a preview of how the cylinder blocks will eventually look.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060565.JPG)

The next stage of machining the cylinder interface is a most important stage to get right. In the  full size Mercedes engine the individual cylinders are welded to the individual cylinder heads. The model engine will have the individual cylinders screwed into the combined cylinder head. The accuracy of the cylinder screw threads was of the utmost importance so I decided to try a technique which was completely new to me. I would try thread milling with a single point tool on my LinuxCNC controlled mill.

The four thread pockets were machined with an undercut to accommodate the end turns of the thread.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060567.JPG)

Here is the toolpath for the cutter. The cutter was made from a 3/8" x 32 TPI tap. All the teeth except one were ground off. The remaining cutting tooth looked quite pathetic but it cut all the threads perfectly, if fact some of the nicest threads I have seen. The single point cutter spins like a normal mill cutter and will cut a V grove of the correct angle for the thread. The cutter is then moved in a circular motion at the correct diameter while simultaneously being withdrawn by a distance equivalent to the required thread pitch. The item being machined remains clamped to the mill table, while the cutting tip moves in a continuous helix.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060568.JPG)

It all sounds very hairy, but in fact these was probably the easiest threads I have ever cut, much easier and cleaner than on a lathe. The cylinder threads were 1" x 32 TPI
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060569.JPG)

Here we see all four cylinder heads plus the two test pieces I experimented with before committing to the model parts. So far , so good
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060570.JPG)

Next, I pocked out the water spaces around each combustion chamber. If you look closely you can see where I intersected the 3mm diameter holes I drilled earlier.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060576.JPG)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060580.JPG)

The next stage was to machine the interior of the combustion chamber pent house shape. The V of the pent house accomodates four valves with a 56 degree included angle. I made up precision angle plates for the fixture plate at 28 degrees half angle.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060582.JPG)

The cylinder heads were attached to the fixture plate with clamps and bolts passing through two spark plug holes. A ball mill was used to form one side of the combustion chambers.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060669.JPG)

Each cylinder head was then flipped over to complete the second side of the combustion chambers pent house roof
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060673.JPG)


The next stage was to machine the inlet and exhaust valve pockets. With four valves per cylinder and four cylinders per head, there were a lot of holes to mill. I chose to thread mill the 1/2" x 32 TPI threads using the same single point thread mill is used earlier on the cylinder threads.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060676.JPG)

Here we can see the four embryo cylinder head blocks with all the internal machining completed.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060682.JPG)

The next installment from Vixen's Den will describe the fun and games of machining the outside of the cylinder heads.

Stay tuned

Mike

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jo on October 23, 2017, 06:33:39 PM
The next installment from Vixen's Den will describe the fun and games of machining the outside of the cylinder heads.

I thought the next instalment might include a bit of Jupiter stroking  :mischief:

Jo
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on October 23, 2017, 06:44:27 PM
Hello Jo

Just about to jump on the overnight ferry to St Malo to collect said Bristol Jupiter. The 12 hour winter ferry deals are cheaper than a DHL delivery

Getting excited :cartwheel: :cartwheel: :cartwheel: :cartwheel: :cartwheel: :cartwheel: :wine1: :wine1:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jo on October 23, 2017, 06:58:13 PM
Getting excited :cartwheel: :cartwheel: :cartwheel: :cartwheel: :cartwheel: :cartwheel: :wine1: :wine1:

I would never have guessed  :lolb:

I am sure you will look after Danny's engine for him  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on October 23, 2017, 07:06:25 PM
Hello Jo

At least I have made sure it does not fall into the hands of some auction treasure hunter.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jo on October 23, 2017, 07:11:37 PM
And hopefully we will see it finished :popcorn:

Jo

P.S. I'll be good and let you post the first picture of it  ;)
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: scc on October 23, 2017, 07:49:04 PM
PHENOMINAL engineering of the highest level :praise2: I'm spellbound with every instalment.       Terry
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on October 23, 2017, 09:52:40 PM
Thanks for you kind comment Terry

Yes Jo completing Danny's build is my intention, but don't hold your breath, it will not be the work of five minutes. Besides, I have other big projects on the go.

At the moment I am having a beer on a ferry, in the middle of the oggin, half way to France

Cheers

Mike
..
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on October 23, 2017, 11:21:44 PM
Thanks for you kind comment Terry

Yes Jo completing Danny's build is my intention, but don't hold your breath, it will not be the work of five minutes. Besides, I have other big projects on the go.

At the moment I am having a beer on a ferry, in the middle of the oggin, half way to France

Cheers

Mike
..

Good to hear!   Especially the beer part!

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on January 29, 2018, 07:41:11 PM
It's not everyday you get the chance to sit in a £6,000,000 replica of a Mercedes Benz W125.

All thanks to Dick Crosthwaite at Crosthwaite and Gardner Ltd

Mike

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030765.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030764.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030763.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/_T2eC16hHJHkFFluElZPjBSNNpsuq21g~~60_12.jpg)
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: b.lindsey on January 29, 2018, 08:28:00 PM
Great pictures Mike!!  What a thrill that must have been  :cartwheel:

Bill
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on January 29, 2018, 09:07:15 PM
Yes Bill, it was quite a thrill and a privilege.

The car was huge. The cockpit was spacious, with little to keep the driver in except a strong grip on the wheel. The bonnet (hood?) went on for ever.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: sco on January 29, 2018, 09:16:43 PM
I see your W125 and raise you a W165 :-)

Simon.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on January 29, 2018, 09:37:49 PM
Snap,

That's the only running W165 in the world, the only other W165 is a static exhibit in the Stuttgart Museum.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1030964.jpg)

Here is my two stage supercharger on top of the real thing

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: michelko on February 05, 2018, 09:22:14 AM
wow  :praise2:

Whats the Status of your Project? When will it runn?

Michael
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 05, 2018, 10:59:48 AM
Hello Michael,

The Mercedes W165 journey is long and progress is always slow during the winter months. You can heat the air in an outside workshop but the iron machines remain cold and that's hard on old hands and fingers.  Also I have been distracted by the Bristol Jupiter radial engine, you may have seen my other posts.

Our larger scale historic racing engines never get much feedback, compared to smaller more popular projects. I guess that's to be expected, as little is known about pre-war European racing engines on the far side of the pond. Even more so with the secretive way Mercedes Benz work, I don't suppose there are more than half a dozen living engineers, in the whole world, who have seen inside the MB W165 engine.  And they are not allowed to tell.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 25, 2018, 04:33:55 PM
Part 11D  Cylinder Heads

It has been a while since I last updated the build progress on my Mercedes Benz W165 GP engines. Sorry for that, but I have been concentrating on another engine; the Bristol Jupiter, nine cylinder radial engine. I will try to make amends with this rather long installment from Vixen's Den

We left the cylinder heads with the majority of the internal geometry machined, ready to start on the external surfaces. Here is a reminder of how far I had progressed

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060682~0.JPG)


The next operations require the cylinder heads to be mounted back on the 28* angle plate, ready to start work on the three sides of the valve towers. I prefer to make precision angle plates for each set-up, easier to handle and less risk of an error compared to adjustable angle plates or sign bars. The cylinder heads are located against a reference face and secured by four bolts, through the spark plug holes

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060684.JPG)


With the top and side faces machined, I was able to drill through from the outside into the water jacket cavities between the combustion chambers. This increases the size of the water coolant space and allows the coolant to reach up in between the pairs of inlet and exhaust valves. The drilled holes were then tapped 40 tpi for shallow blanking caps which were screwed in and sealed with JB Weld epoxy. You will notice there are two overlapping plugs sealing each water space. The second set of coolant holes were drilled and tapped after the epoxy securing the initial set  had cured

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060685.JPG)
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060687.JPG)


When all the epoxy had fully cured, I machined the top surface flat, to the finished dimension, then thread milled (40 tpi) each of the valve pockets, ready to accept the screw-in valve inserts.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060688.JPG)


Next, I machined the shallow recess in the top of the valve tower. before drilling and tapping the 18 off M3 threads for the studs which will eventually secure the cam boxes in place.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060689.JPG)
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060690.JPG)


All this work was repeated on the opposite side and then on each of the four cylinder heads in turn. You can just make out the sealing caps on the completed side. This was a long demanding session in the shop but very rewarding.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060693.JPG)


The cylinder heads were transferred to a 90* angle plate so that the inlet and exhaust ports could be machined into the sides of the valve towers. The ports were first bored and then thread milled 40 tpi. That single tooth thread mill has achieved an amazing amount of work without the need for resharpening.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060695.JPG)


Exhaust and inlet stubs were turned on the lathe and the correct type screwed into the cylinder head, again secured and sealed with high temperature JB Weld epoxy.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060708.JPG)


Here the exhaust stubs are faced off, the internal ports opened up to an oval cross-section and the external flange profiled to shape, before being drilled and tapped for the M2.0 studs.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060711.JPG)
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060712.JPG)


This just about completes this stage of the work on the cylinder heads, prior to the installation of the bronze screw-in valve seats.
As you can see. there is not much of the original billet left

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060722.JPG)
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060721.JPG)
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060720.JPG)
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060715.JPG)

Stay tuned, there's more to come.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jo on February 25, 2018, 05:28:41 PM
Getting side tracked on the Jupiter was totally understandable  ;)

Looking good, I hope those are not Royal Snail elastic bands - if they are be warned they biodegrade, you don't want your cylinder head dropping off and getting a ding  ::)

Jo
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: sco on February 25, 2018, 07:45:06 PM
Awesome work Mike - loving following this build.

Simon.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Art K on February 25, 2018, 08:04:30 PM
Mike,
That looks great. It's also great to see you and your model next to the real thing.
Art
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: fumopuc on February 25, 2018, 08:06:43 PM
Hi Mike, that is really impressive.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on February 26, 2018, 01:40:10 PM
Excellent  :praise2:  :praise2: I look forward to seeing how the valve seats/combustion chambers assemble.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: michelko on February 26, 2018, 06:50:31 PM
Wow awesome work :NotWorthy:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: b.lindsey on February 26, 2018, 07:47:31 PM
Just awesome Mike. Don't know what else to say, just a work of art!!

Bill
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 26, 2018, 09:10:44 PM
Thanks everyone for your generous comments

My friends at Crosthwaite and Gardner, have recently published this photo on there webpage.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/26992622_1790915167619618_6614880533750153999_n.jpg)

The caption says, "Clocking & setting the mill ready to machine valve seats on a fabricated cylinder block"
The cylinder block is from the 6.5litre Mercedes Benz W125 engine and the mill is a walk-in, drive -through, 4/5 axis workstation from Hass. The cylinder head is set over at the required angle on that massive 4th axis trunnion.
He looks happy in his work, so would you or I, given half a chance to do the same.



(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/27336397_988040001362321_316812186899714586_n.jpg)

Doing exactly the same job on my 1/3 scale 1.5 litre W165 cylinder blocks. Almost the same set-up, except I am using a sine table instead of the 4th axis trunnion and  a tiny 3-axis Emco F1 Mill instead of a 4/5-axis Haas. (about 1/2 million £,$,Euro difference)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/27072554_988040394695615_5599840220607379971_n.jpg)

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: petertha on February 27, 2018, 02:48:51 AM
Beautiful work Mike.

I wanted to ask about the epoxy for the exhaust port stubs, was it their regular stuff (500-600F), or a more specialized adhesive like this?
https://www.jbweld.com/products/j-b-extremeheat

...screwed in bronze valve seats. Wow, going to watch for that. Watchmaker stuff.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 27, 2018, 12:58:01 PM
Hi Petertha,

I am using the regular (500-600*F) JB Weld on the cylinder blocks. The blocks are water-cooled aluminium, so I don't expect a temperature gradient above 240*F, even around the exhaust ports. The regular JB Weld should have an ample operating temperature reserve (I hope). JB Weld has a high filler content, so does not go soft and gooey at higher temperatures, like an unfilled epoxy (eg. Araldite). The only problem with JB Weld with all those fillers, is the risk of tracking when subjected to EHT voltages; spark plugs, distributors etc.

In order to avoid the "watchmaker stuff", I simplified the design and combined the valve guides and valve seats into one screw-in piece of bronze. That way I could ensure the valve guides, valve seats and the retainer thread were all concentric. The were so many valve guides (64, plus spares) to make, I welcomed the simplified design. It did consume an enormous amount of SAE 660 round bar.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on November 04, 2018, 08:01:12 PM
Part 11E Cylinder Heads (continued)

I realise that I have neglected posting progress on the Mercedes build for some time, I admit to having been completely distracted by the Bristol Jupiter.

The previous Part 11D, of this build log, shows how the basic cylinder heads were machined from a solid billet. In this installment I will describe how I made and installed the combined valve guides and seats. For my two engines I needed to make 64 valve guides, plus some spares to cater for unforeseen circumstances. It came as a shock to realise I needed to order 2.5 metres (8 foot) of 10mm diameter SAE 660 bronze bar. The bronze bar was chopped up into 60mm lengths so the valve guides could be made two at a time to reduce the amount of material otherwise lost for work holding.

To ensure concentrically, the valve cavity, the valve guide bore, the outer cylindrical and threaded portions were machined and reamed as a combined operation, all at the same setting. The bar was reversed in the collet chuck and the operation repeated on the opposite end.

After the first stage of machining was completed, the embryo valve guides were cut in two, machined to length before the outer part of the valve guide stem was machined on all the valves. The valve guides are now ready for installation into the cylinder heads.


(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060723.JPG)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060724.JPG)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060725.JPG)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060727.JPG)


I used the regular (500-600*F) JB Weld to grout and seal the valve guides into the cylinder blocks. The blocks are water-cooled aluminium,  I don't expect a temperature gradient above 240*F, even around the exhaust ports, so the JB Weld should have an ample operating temperature reserve.

You will notice the valve seats have been left with a sharp 90* edge. I intend to cut the seats to 45* and lap in the valves at a later stage. There has been too much repetitive work on the valve guides to even contemplate machining more than 64 valves at this stage.

The last photo in this group shows a long 4mm ball mill entering each port and boring through the side wall of the bronze valve guides to siamese each pair of valves with their inlet or exhaust ports

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060728.JPG)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060730.JPG)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060734.JPG)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060739.JPG)


After the valve guides were finished, I turned my attention to machining the seats and tapping the four spark plug holes in each cylinder head 40 x 32 TPI.

Then I turned my attention to the two coolant outlets, which screw into the top of the cylinder heads and take the hot coolant back to the radiator. I machined all the parts for the coolant outlet from a single block of aluminium. The finished part reminds me of some strange Martial Arts weapon. The individual parts were cut off the block, bored through before being filed to a smooth round shape. The tubular part of the coolant outlet pipe was turned and screw threaded. The whole assembly was then screwed into the cylinder head. They were bonded and sealed into the cylinder head's water jacket with yet more JB Weld.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060741.JPG)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060747.JPG)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060754.JPG)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060755.JPG)


The final set of photos show the (nearly) finished cylinder heads with the corrugated cylinder water jacket attached. The top photo shows a full size Mercedes W125 beautifully recreated by Crosswaite & Gardner. It was my inspiration for the quarter scale W165. Both are similar in concept and construction, but differ, both in size and in design details.

The tea mug in the bottom photos says it all.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/15591328_1368411676536638_1899407223159042440_o~0.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060769.JPG)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060770.JPG)

Stay tuned to this channel as well

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on November 04, 2018, 08:17:21 PM
Hello Mike,

I am always amazed at your work and so glad that you share these progress photos.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on November 04, 2018, 08:34:03 PM
Excellent progress  :praise2:  :praise2: Glad to see Mr happy is still there  :)
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: b.lindsey on November 04, 2018, 08:54:50 PM
Speechless Mike. Absolutely gorgeous work.

Bill
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on November 04, 2018, 10:27:32 PM
Truly impressive - both the amount of bronze and the result  :praise2: + I'm again reminded about how small it actually is  :o

It will be a true juvel just like the Bristol when you finish them  :ThumbsUp:       :cheers:    :popcorn:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Art K on November 05, 2018, 03:21:23 AM
Mike,
Glad to see you sparing time from the Bristol to work on the MB W165. Wow that looks like a lot of very repetitive work on those valve guides. I hope you did them on a cnc machine. It's great to see the full size as well as the one on the coffee cup. Great work!
Art
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on November 05, 2018, 11:36:23 AM
That's awesome!    Love watching you work Mike!!!

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on November 05, 2018, 12:19:55 PM
Thanks everyone, for calling in and saying hello. It's greatly appreciated.

With the demise of real world model engineering shows, our forum is taking over and becoming our own virtual model show, and one with a world wide audience.

Roger, I do not know what I would do if Mr Happy failed the 'bounce off the floor' test one day.

Cheers   :cheers: :cheers:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: petertha on November 06, 2018, 08:06:09 PM
Gorgeous work Mike. What are your thoughts behind JB weld on valve cage as opposed to some of the other high temp 'glues' out there, Loctite & such.  Were you after increased viscosity, materials based,  better results from past experience etc?
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on November 06, 2018, 08:35:03 PM
Hello petertha,

Loctite is not a glue, it is a thread locking retainer based on an anaerobic curing acrylic. It cures (sets into a solid acrylic) in the absence of air, the more confined the space, the better it cures. It has no gap filling capability, in fact it may fail to go off, if there is space between the two components.

I considered several high temperature epoxies. I rather liked the look of a silver loaded (powdered silver) high temperature aerospace epoxy because of it's heat conductive properties. Unfortunately it was only available in Jumbo Jet size containers and the price was out of this world. Sorry no samples.

Standard JB Weld has a reasonably high working temperature, due partially to it's high solids content. The cylinders are water cooled, which should keep the cylinder head temperature well within the epoxies temperature range. JB Weld is an affordable and easy to use material with a long working time. It has good gap filling capability, which I specifically wanted for grouting the cylindrical portion of the valve cage and it has a reasonable thermal conductivity.

Fingers crossed that it does everything I hope for. It's too late now, even if I discover a better material

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: JC54 on November 07, 2018, 12:11:51 AM
Hiya Mike, I have just read right through this build  :praise2: what can I add that already hasn't been said many times but SUPERB...  :old: :DrinkPint:   Reading the bit about the BRM's took me back more years than I care to count. My late Uncle Eric worked for BRM at Bourne at that time in the machine shop. BRM used to test their cars on an old WW2 aerodrome that is about half a mile away from where I live now. I remember when mum was learning to drive (Austin A40 Somerset) up there, Graham Hill came past us flat out. Mum screamed let go of the steering wheel and jammed the throttle down, Dad struggling to take control.. The A40 was more reliable than the V16 though.   :shrug:     John
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Art K on November 07, 2018, 03:06:56 AM
Mike,
Ah, but the real question is really, Can the JB weld joint imitate a weld fillet? :lolb:
Art
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: petertha on November 07, 2018, 06:56:35 AM
Loctite is not a glue, it is a thread locking retainer based on an anaerobic curing acrylic. It cures (sets into a solid acrylic) in the absence of air, the more confined the space, the better it cures. It has no gap filling capability, in fact it may fail to go off, if there is space between the two components.

Sorry my bad. I've actually done quite a bit of composites work & 'glue' is a unfortunate slang-ish expression I picked up from others for epoxy, even high end aerospace stuff.
Loctite does specify maximum diametrical gap fill in their literature, for example common ones like 609 = 0.005”, 680 = 0.015" along with viscosity & quite detailed temperature/strength profiles. That's kind of why I was asking because I was thinking the max gaps between your threaded components would be quite narrow & possibly favor retaining compounds over higher viscosity epoxy 'adhesive' if that's a safer word. But now that I see the temp/strength specs (680 for example) its not as high as I assumed it was. Even common JB appears to be quite a bit higher although words like 'withstand' isn't quite as rigorous as HDT type properties you might see in typical resin specs. https://www.jbweld.com/collections/epoxy-adhesives/products/j-b-weld-twin-tube

Sorry for the ramble, again beautiful work.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on November 07, 2018, 11:33:15 AM
Hello Petertha

I did some crude tests before opting for the JB Weld.  I made up three test samples consisting on a 3/8 nut and bolt locked with A) Loctite 638 high strength retainer B) standard Araldite 24 hour two pack epoxy (unfilled) C) standard JB Weld two pack epoxy (high filler content).  The samples were prepared and allowed to set off and cure for a few days. In each case the nut was well secured to the bolt and could not be shifted with a long spanner.

The samples were secured in the bench vice and heated with a propane blow torch. I did not have a thermocouple handy, so cannot say what temperatures were reached. After a few minutes, the Loctite sample softened, as expected, making it possible to remove the nut without much difficulty. The Araldite also softened and  became gummy, allowing the nut to be removed with a little more effort. The JB Weld survived the torch flame for considerable longer. The steel was a beep blue when I eventually got the nut to shift. It put up a good fight and convinced me that it was a good choice for the Mercedes Valve cages.

Other, may have different opinions and achieve different mileage.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: petertha on November 08, 2018, 06:22:40 AM
Thanks for your detailed reply, Mike. I want to integrate your exhaust boss/flange technique for the radial engine heads I'm building. It cleanly solves a lot of issues over the designers configuration of threaded nuts, partial threads, washer seal, lipped tubes... and just plain looks more like the typical FS casting. I didn't have a good feel for JB in this application but this discussion has re-focused my attention. I have some sacrificial head blanks & will do a some prototyping & similar heat test which I'll post separately.The valve cup/cages will probably benefit from the same treatment. Thanks for your patient answers.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: zeeprogrammer on November 08, 2018, 03:58:53 PM
I was just about to complain about the lack of photos and then found the ones at the end of the page. Wow.  :o Awesome!
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on November 08, 2018, 11:39:15 PM
Hello Petertha,

The screw-in exhaust boss / flange technique has the advantage that the act of screwing home the exhaust boss brings one half of the screw thread and one mating face into direct metal to metal contact. This has obvious advantages for heat transfer, the epoxy acts as a grout to fill the slight clearance behind the thread, as well as acting as a retainer. The same is true for the screw-in bronze valve cage. The Mercedes valve inserts had the additional complication of a parallel, cylindrical section. I liberally coated the valve guide and the bore of the cylinder head with the stiff epoxy paste which extruded everywhere when I screwed home the valve cage , I felt comfortable that all the void space was filled. I am not sure this would have happened with a thin runny sealant.

JB Weld was the best option I could afford. You may be lucky and find a source of a silver (powder) loaded high temp epoxy.... aerospace or electronics industries? which would give better thermal conductivity. I came across a suitable product (sorry lost the reference) a high silver content epoxy which could be used either; without a catalyst as a non hardening thermal paste, or with the catalyst to provide a bonded joint as well. The product was only supplied as two 1Kg drums. I only needed a couple of spoon fulls.

Now it's your turn, to tell us all about your radial engine.  :popcorn: :popcorn:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: petertha on November 09, 2018, 02:40:22 AM
Now it's your turn, to tell us all about your radial engine.  :popcorn: :popcorn:

Well I don't want to taint your nice W165 build post with my unrelated project. But since you asked I'll attach some 1-time pics to provide a clearer visual. This is my first engine or any machining project of consequence for that matter. Plans are from Ohrndorf. 2 winters ago I built a cylinder stack 'prototype' & told myself if I got that far I would continue on. Last winter I got the crankcase 'middle stuff' done. This winter the goal is to make 5 cylinders for real & take it to completion. So here you can see renderings of the induction tube entering the head & short exhaust stacks coming off a/p design. The valve ports are L-R symmetrical. The hex nut screws into the head & tube is sealed on an inner face by via raised lip, somewhat like I've seen on RC 4S engines. I'd like to do away with as much of the fiddly bits as possible & integrate a JB epoxied aluminum boss with bolt-on flange. Still some issues to sort out as the ports enter at an angle, boss would interrupt some shallow cooling fin features. And I need to pay attention to bolt size & layout pattern for tube mating & removal. So to-be-continued story which I will update elsewhere. Btw my bronze valve cup/guides are not threaded in the head like yours, so that may restrict my adhesive choice. More thinking required. Thanks for your interest.

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on January 04, 2019, 12:48:09 PM
Part 12  Overhead Cam Boxes

Overnight, this built reached a major milestone: 50,000 views. Wow!! that's a lot.   A big thank you to everyone who has called in to check progress and make kind comments. To celebrate, here is a big  progress update for you to enjoy.

Mercedes Benz in Stuttgart were given only eight months to design and build the two W165 cars before their first and only race. The tiny 1.5 litre eight cylinder engines were miniature versions of the much bigger V12 3 litre engines. The bigger engines were cut down from a V12 to a V8 configuration. Many parts had to be reduced in size, but some parts, like the cam shafts and valve gear, were simply reduced in length from 6 cylinders per bank to four cylinders. The result was somewhat ungainly, a huge cylinder head and valve gear perched on top of a block of tiny cylinders.

The next parts to be made were the overhead cam boxes. There are four cam boxes on each engine and they are all slightly different. Each cylinder block has two cam boxes. The inlet side, cam box being a mirror image of the exhaust side, cam box. Also both cam boxes on the right hand cylinder bank are longer due to the stagger of the cylinder bores. With four variations on the cam box design, there was plenty of scope for a cock-up.

I purchased a large slab of 20mm thick aluminium alloy, grade HE30 TF (6082 T6), to make the 8 cam boxes. This material has more than adequate strength and machines well, without the need for coolant. I cut the billet into eight pieces, approximately 200mm (8"0) long by 40mm (1.6") wide using a bandsaw. Because each cam box was slightly different to each other, I decided to machine each cam box individually, rather than as a batch. The first step was to mount the billet in the machine vice and mill out the central pocket down to the level cam bearing seats. Not very exciting but it did produce a lot of chips

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060803.JPG)


The second stage was to pocket out the bottom on the cam box and bore the holes for the eight valves and valve springs

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060806.JPG)


Next, I machined the outer profile of the top flange

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060810.JPG)


This photo shows one of the com boxes with most of the internal detail finished. The top cover bolt holes have been drilled and tapped M1.6, The cam bearing bolt holes have been drilled and tapped M3.0 and the cylinder head bolt holes have all been drilled 2.5mm. You can also see, near the top, where the cam finger follower shaft will lay.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060814.JPG)


I machined the insides detail all of the exhaust side cam boxes before rewriting the control program to machine the four mirror image cam boxes for the inlet side.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060851.JPG)


Next the embrio cam boxes were mounted on a jig plate to machine the external profiles. Here the Jig plate is set at an angle to achieve this slopped face.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060883.JPG)


With all eight cam boxes completed, I turned my attention to making the Cam shaft bearing blocks. I will be using sintered bronze bushings to carry the camshafts. Here you can see the first stage of manufacture. All the bearing blocks have been externally shaped and bolted together as pairs.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060896.JPG)


The individual bearing blocks are bored to receive the sintered bronze bush and drilled and reamed for the finger fllowere shaft. This simple jig plate ensues that all bearing blocks were machined identically.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060904.JPG)


With so many cam boxes and cam shaft bearings, it was essential to stamp a serial number on each part to identify it's correct position. Here you can see one of the bearing caps and it's sintered bronze bush. A ground steel bar is being used to align the cam shaft bearings, you can also see the finger follower shaft. The socket head screws are a temporary measure to aid quick assembly, correct size hex head bolts will be used in the final assembly.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060915.JPG)


Here you can see the dummy cam shaft and bearing assembly beside one of the cam boxes.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060913.JPG)


Here the dummy cam shaft and bearing assembly are installed within one of the cam boxes and a pair of cam boxes in position on a cylinder block. You can see the valve guides pocking though the base of the cam box.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060910.JPG)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060908.JPG)


This final photo shows the result of all that work. Eight cam boxes mounted on four cylinder blocks for the two replica Mercedes Benz W165 engines.

If you ask, "Does CNC make engine building easy?     I will neply, " CNC machining doesn't necessarily make it easy, but it does make very complex parts possible"

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060921.JPG)

Stay tuned

Mike

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: sco on January 04, 2019, 01:10:11 PM
Fantastically detailed post Mike and some awesome work on show - no surprise that there are so many views.

Best wishes,

Simon.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Stuart on January 04, 2019, 01:20:02 PM
Mike all I can say is. WOW

Now when I look at my efforts I am even more dissatisfied, not to say they are no good but .......... :slap:

Keep up the good work always a pleasure to see your progress
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on January 04, 2019, 01:28:49 PM
Great Post Mike!!!! I'm very glad to see this! 

Been in need of a W165 fix for some time!

 8)

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on January 04, 2019, 01:28:56 PM
Good progress Mike, seems a shame to put rocker covers on the top though I expect you will display one "exploaded" with stand offs.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on January 04, 2019, 02:28:29 PM
Splendid work as ever  :praise2:  :praise2: Thank you for the little bit of design history  :ThumbsUp: I believe that Austin Rover used a cut down Rover V8 as the basis for the V6 engine used in the MG Metro 6R4.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on January 04, 2019, 06:39:12 PM
Great to see another update posted about this fantastic project  :praise2:

Quote
If you ask, "Does CNC make engine building easy?     I will reply, " CNC machining doesn't necessarily make it easy, but it does make very complex parts possible"

As someone who so far only has done 2.5D CNC to make dual sided PCB prototypes - I'm rather well aware of some of the many possible ways it still can go wrong - so you have my full "sympathy" (for lack of better word) for why you only did one at a time.
I would also have been worried that I didn't make the mistake of "mixing the files" - milling one side with the file for A and by mistake milling the other side with the file for B, C & D instead of A - been there, done that  :facepalm:  In my case less than £1 in materials + time ....
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Art K on January 05, 2019, 05:10:44 PM
Mike,
I saw this posted yesterday but had spent to much time on the computer already to be able to focus on reading it. This is great work! And yes it is way to easy to confuse and pick a similar program. At least you had two of each cam box.
Art
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on January 05, 2019, 07:12:55 PM
Hello everybody, thanks for calling in.

In an industrial setting, one tool path program can be used to make thousands and thousands of identical components. By contrast, in the model engineering world, it can take a thousand different tool path programs to make a single engine. The industrial guys can afford to invest the extra time to fully optimise their tool path code, to minimise production time. Industrial machines are often expected to run unattended, all day and overnight producing  bucket fulls of identical parts. And as they say 'time is money'.

For engine building, I found it safest to create the tool path program(s) for a single component just before it is manufactured. Once the required number of parts have been made I delete that program from memory. That way, I cannot select the wrong one by mistake. If I need to remake a part, then I have to rewrite a new program. The base information for each program is always contained in the master CAD drawing. When the part(s) have been made, I delete that tool path program.

A single component such as a Cam Box for the W165 may need five or six separate programs, one for each cutter, drill size or set-up. I have got into the habit, because it has proved to be the safest approach, of producing the tool path code on the day I machine the part or parts. I don't normally spend a lot of time tuning or optimising the code, It's often quicker to stand by the machine, changing the tools manually and adjusting the feed rate, by ear, for different parts of the program. Sometimes the tool path code, produced by a CAM program, can waste time with unnecessary line of code which only machine thin air. These redundant line of code can of course be edited out,  but that takes time. I often simply increase the feed rate to maximum to quickly work off these unnecessary lines.

There are many roads to a destination, it's all about finding a method, or route, that works for you.

Mike

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: fumopuc on January 05, 2019, 08:08:19 PM
Hi Mike, your are not alone, I do it the same way.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Art K on January 05, 2019, 08:46:55 PM
I use Sprutcam for a cam program and when it seems to be "machining air" I see if I can tweak it. I don't like the sliding scale on the screen no mechanical one one the Tormach. A little thing about what it's doing and looking at the screen instead. But that's just me.
Art
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on January 05, 2019, 09:25:26 PM
Hello Art

My control program is LinuxCNC which is basically the same software behind your Tormach. I always prefer to use the keyboard, short cut button commands to change parameters. Like you, I am not comfortable with using the mouse to move the sliders, key strokes are safer, a physical knob or handwheel would be better still.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Art K on January 05, 2019, 11:41:11 PM
The short cut commands are great but I don't tend to remember them, use them. Ditto on the non-existent knob.
Art
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on March 29, 2020, 12:33:48 PM
Hello There,

It's been a long time since I updated this Mercedes W165 build. Instead, I have been concentrating on the 1/3 scale Bristol Jupiter and more recently on finishing my two 1/4 scale Bristol Mercury radial engines. The work on the Mercurys is nearing completion, so I thought to review where I had reached with the other big project, the Mercedes W165's. We all have a lot of time on our hands, so I thought a longer update would give you something to read and give me something to do while locked down inside the house.

The build log shows I had got as far as finishing all four cam boxes and the installation of the camshafts (less cams). Since then, I have made a start on the complex geared drive train which drives them. Each of the four cams is driven by a 64tooth 0.8 Module straight cut spur gear. I made a start on these gears by preparing the gear blanks from EN8 steel discs. The discs came from a water jetting company, they were the offcuts (outcuts??) from a larger job.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060926small.JPG)


The discs, enough for the two engines, were bored and turned to size. Both outside faces were turned to the correct profile before being transferred to the mill for drilling out

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060927small.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060928small.JPG)


Here is one of the cam gear blanks on the rotary table, the magic roundabout, having the hub mounting holes and the outer lightening holes milled and drilled.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060930small.JPG)


Eight cam gear blanks await there turn to visit the tooth doctor

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060932small.JPG)


But before I can cut the teeth I need something to mount the gear blanks on. I decided I would get greater accuracy if I cut the gears on the actual shafts on which they will eventually run.
A set of keyed hubs for the camshafts were turned, key broached and drilled

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060939small.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060937small.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060940small.JPG)

Here you can see completed set of keyed camshafts (less cams), hubs and gear blanks. A visit to the tooth doctor is imminent, you cannot put it off forever.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060942small.JPG)


I am going to cut the 64 teeth using the 4th axis unit I made by converting an old EMCO Compact 5 lathe bed. First I needed to confirm the holding torque to be sure the gear blanks would not rotate the spindle due to the cutting forces.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060947small.JPG)


Then the assembled camshafts and gear blanks were mounted in the collet chuck, the tailstock support was brought up and the gear cutting was underway. I prepared a looped tooth cutting Macro program for my LinuxCNC controller. All I needed to enter was the number of teeth, depth of tooth and distances for the involute cutter to travel and of course the all important feed rate. The feed rate was monitored by ear and adjusted accordingly.  Zick zick zick, zich dont you love the sound of the gear cutter at work

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060954small.JPG)


Actually, gear cutting this number of teeth was very straight forward using the CNC control. At least I did not have that worry associated with manually indexing a rotary table of "do you want one extra wide tooth at the end or two narrow ones?"

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060950small.JPG)


Here you see a pair of camshaft gears in place on one of the cylinder heads. The gears mesh beautifully.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060952small.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1060953small.JPG)

And here you can see both cylinder heads in place with a perspex mock up of the whole cam shaft gear train.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1080021small.JPG)


I will talk more about the gear train in the next installment. Hope it will not be too long in coming.

Until then; stay indoors, lock down and remain safe.

Good luck

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: cnr6400 on March 29, 2020, 01:54:07 PM
Great work Mike! an impressive engine. Glad to see you went to the bar early in gear cutting work. (the torque bar, that is)   :Lol:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: awake on March 29, 2020, 09:07:30 PM
All I can say is, wow!
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on March 29, 2020, 09:16:17 PM
Great to see this build is still on  :cheers: - I had been wondering if it was my memory (again) and that you had completed it without me remembering so ....  :old:

Don't get me wrong as I also enjoy your other builds enormously too  :praise2:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on March 29, 2020, 09:27:11 PM
Thanks for calling in.

The problem is too many big projects and too little time. They each have to wait to take their turn.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Art K on March 30, 2020, 02:41:07 AM
Mike I see what you mean about to many projects. It is good to see you back to work on the W165 that gear train mock up reminds me of the Offy gear train. And, those are some realy nice looking gears.
Art
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: sco on March 30, 2020, 09:25:24 AM
Can't wait to see that completed gear train!

Simon.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: nj111 on March 30, 2020, 10:29:14 AM
That's great! Thank you for the update
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on March 30, 2020, 11:46:04 AM
Hello Simon, Art, Nick and everyone else

Thanks for calling in and for looking in.

I had not intended to return to the Mercedes W165 until mid summer at the earliest. I had hoped to meet up with the Mercedes historic car people at the Goodwood Festival of Speed in July, or during the week after, before they returned to Stuttgart. I had hoped to talk them into releasing some more photos of the rear of the engine, particularly the cam drive train.

But the world changed overnight and all plans for 2020 have evaporated.

I have made a best guess at the design of the camshaft gear train based on what little information I have collected together over the years. Some things are know. The camshafts have 64 teeth gears, therefore the crankshaft and magneto drive must therefore have 32 teeth pinions. The idler gears between, can have any number of teeth, that does not affect the 2:1 reduction. However the idler gear wheel size is dictated by internal clearances and the need to pass through the ring of bolts holding the clutch housing in place. I modeled my 'best guess' gear layout in perspex on the back of the model and it appears to be a logical design. I cannot confirm it's correctness. Even so, I will proceed with what I have. The next step is detail design drawings, which should keep me indoors and busy for a while.

How far can I get? That all depends on the supply of raw materials. I had not planned to start so soon, so I have not bought in the required stock to complete the job, I will try to make do with what is available, but I don't have a large materials collection.

Stay in, stay safe

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Johnmcc69 on March 30, 2020, 02:29:25 PM
Beautiful work Mike!

 John
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Twizseven on March 30, 2020, 02:51:25 PM
Stunning Work.   :praise2: :praise2: :praise2:

Colin
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on April 01, 2020, 03:55:58 PM
The design of the cam drive train for the Mercedes W165 will be challenging as I do not have any detail drawings or photos of the rear of the engine. Mercedes Benz corporate policy is not to give such information away as it could assist unauthorised counterfeit reproductions of their products to be built.

So be it.

Fortunately, I did find this photo of the back face of a V12 W154 in the Louwman Museum, Holland.  It provides a good indication of how the Mercedes engineers designed these parts back in 1938. You can clearly see the camshaft drive train was enclosed in a narrow cast alloy box with external bosses to support the bearings for the individual gears in the gear train. Although the gear layout is different to the W165, I believe it gives a good idea what it should look like.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/Silver_Arrow_Gala_in_the_Louwman_Museum_W125__V12small.JPG)


I believe it is asking a lot to get the centres of all 10 gear centres in the correct position to give perfect meshing. Instead I decided to mount the two pairs of intermediate idler gears on two separate bridge pieces. This is in some ways similar to the bridges used on watches and precision time pieces. The positions of the  intermediate idler gear pairs can be adjusted until a perfect mesh is achieved then bolted firmly in position. The bridge pieces will be bolted to bosses protruding from the engine side, half of the gear case. The intermediate gears and bridge pieces only attach to the front half casing, there will be no connection to the rear casing The rear half of the gear casing will bolt to the front half and will carry cosmetic, non functioning external bearing bosses over the individual gear positions.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/CAMDRIVEsmall.GIF)


Well that's the plan. I have steel bar for the idler gears on mail order. So if it ever arrives, I will start my making the idler gears and bridge pieces, which can be tested against my perspex mock up.

Stay in, stay safe

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: fumopuc on April 01, 2020, 04:10:17 PM
Hi Mike,
that seems to be a brilliant idea to get it proper and a bit flexible done.

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on April 01, 2020, 05:29:58 PM
That's a complicated gear train  :headscratch:  :headscratch: and a good solution  :wine1:

I guess that the shaft in the middle of the picture is the steering column?
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on April 01, 2020, 05:34:27 PM
I guess that the shaft in the middle of the picture is the steering column?

That's correct. Perfectly designed to impale the driver's rib cage in the event of a collision.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: cnr6400 on April 01, 2020, 08:21:45 PM
Ah, the old sternum-werfer, eh?
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on April 05, 2021, 09:10:24 PM
I have found the time to return to my two Mercedes Benz W165 engines and hopefully I will be able to make some more progress towards their eventual completion.

The first job I needed to complete, was to line bore the five main bearing journals which hold the ball race bearings for the crankshaft. It is essential to get all five bearings perfectly in line, so I needed to make a long, between centers, boring bar and to fit it with a 'microbore' precision adjustable cutter. I was lucky enough to find and buy two small  'microbore' tool holders from WWW. jurasictools.com in the UK. One, the larger of the two, has a replaceable ceramic insert tip and the smaller one has a brazed on tip. The smaller tip could be made to fit a 25mm diameter bar. However, I could get a larger diameter 28mm bar inside the un-machined big end bearing journals. The slightly larger diameter 28 mm bar would have nearly twice the stiffness of the 25mm bar.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1080616small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1080617small.JPG)


The height of the cutting tip is raised by rotating the adjuster nut with the conical base. Two small keyway pegs prevent the tool rotating. The small countersink screw in the base  then locks the 'microbore' cutter at the desired setting. The boring bar was machined with the necessary cone seating and keyway slots

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1080618small.JPG)


The adjuster nut is engraved to indicate the depth setting, but these were very difficult to see, hidden deep within the boring bar and also down inside the engines crankcase. I knew I needed to make a special 8mm square socket to adjust the depth nut, so I added a large diameter timing disc to the top of the 8mm socket; which makes the depth adjustment so much easier. The disc has 50 sub divisions. Each division gives a 1 thou"  (0.0254 mm) change of depth. I cheated slightly and used a plastic laminated paper disc rather than an engraved scale.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1080620small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1080621small.JPG)



The only lathe I have, big enough, is my old and very worn Chipmaster lathe. The cutter needs to traverse approx 200mm (8 inches) to bore all five journals. The normal way to do this work, is to bolt the crankcase to the saddle and move the saddle backwards and forwards over the rotating boring bar. Unfortunately, I know the Chipmaster's bed would be too worn to allow me to do it this way with any accuracy. Each journal would end up being a different diameter, as the saddle rode up and down over the worn out bedways. An alternative method is to fit bearings to either end of the crankcase and use these bearings to position of the boring bar accurately within the crankcase. The crankcase would be loosely driven by the saddle, the precision being derived from the additional bearings rather than from the lathe itself.

Here you can see the two bearing plates spigotted and bolted to either end of the crankcase. I am hoping the plain aluminium bearings (with plenty of lubrication) will survive long enough to finish all of the bores.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1080622small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1080623small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1080625small.JPG)


The depth adjustments can be made easily and conveniently through the rectangular (supercharger dive) aperture on the top of the crankcase, while the locking screw is tightened from below

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1080626small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1080627small.JPG)


Finally, here we have everything set up ready for a trial run (on the spit roaster). Looks promising, now where did I put my beer glass.  :DrinkPint:

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1080628small.JPG)


Stay safe, stay tuned.

Mike




Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on April 05, 2021, 10:34:01 PM
Very interesting alternative when the Lathe isn't precise enough - thank you very much for showing Mike  :ThumbsUp:

Will look forward to see the rest of this operation  :cheers:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: 90LX_Notch on April 05, 2021, 10:53:00 PM
I’ll be watching the line boring with great interest Mike.  I have been kicking around making a bar to line bore my Britnell four cylinder.  I also need to make a table for my Rivett 608 in order to do this operation.  The scary part is that the bar will be .250 (6.35 mm). 

-Bob
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: john mills on April 05, 2021, 11:00:16 PM
Hi
That set up should work well.  reminds  me of when i did line boring on full size engines the machine had adjustable movable arms  the boring bar run in removable starnded  drill bushes  the bar was only 1" dia .the
tools were just a plain carbide round tool held by a grub screw from the side or on a shot bar about15 inches long a knob on the end and a rod through the bar .the tool was just set in a direct reading micrometer set at a fixed bush size adjusted by tapping the tool and tightening the grub screw.it was surprising how precisely i could bore to
size the bushes had a surprising amount of clearance.   nice to see you use as large a bar as will fit.
          John
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on April 05, 2021, 11:49:28 PM
Love that set up...can't imagine why..... 8)

Keep it coming bud!.....

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: fumopuc on April 06, 2021, 09:36:58 AM
Hi Mike good luck.
I am sure it will work fine.
I have used such a Microbore tool also in the crank case of my Bruce Macbeth Engine some time ago.
https://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,7527.msg196888.html#msg196888 (https://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,7527.msg196888.html#msg196888)
It works like a treat, 0,02 mm adjustment was easy to archive.
My Microbore tool is equipped with a CCMT cutting insert.
The adjusting tool is not as elegant as yours.


Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on April 06, 2021, 10:06:00 AM
Nice adjusting tool, best not say that I flicked my nut round with the point of a scriber :-[

Looing forward to seeing how it cuts.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on April 06, 2021, 10:48:21 AM
Ha ha,

The 'Microbore' adjusting tool seems to be a big hit :lolb:

My 'Microbore' inert is buried deep inside the bar and also the crankcase. The depth graduations were impossible to see; so a long adjuster with an external dial were needed. I found some elegantly tapered scrap parts in the 'come in handy one day' draw. I think I made several of them for my late son's custom bike, now they have found an alternative use.

I have seen the 'bearing on crankcase' method used by vintage car restorers to line bore main bearing caps and a similar method used to bore the steam cylinders of full size locos.

The only problem I foresee, is the need to remove the crankcase and one bearing block whenever I need to get inside to measure the bore diameter. The end bearing block was made with a tight fitting spiggot so should re-position accurately.  :shrug:

Achim, thanks for the reassurance that even a 0.02 mm adjustment is easily achieved

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on April 06, 2021, 01:15:14 PM
Mike, could you make a plug gauge with a hole in it that is just large enough to slip over the bar then you can slide that into position to check bore size without having to take things apart if you leave it within the crankcase.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on April 06, 2021, 02:27:08 PM
Jason,

Thanks. That's an interesting idea. There is a 9 mm 'dead space' at the front of the engine beyond the front bearing cap, which is not swept by the cutter. I could make a coaxial plug gauge to fit in there, which would act as a simple 'Go/No-Go' gauge. There is barely enough room for a stepped plug gauge which would give an indication of the required final depth of cut.

I will make something up and see how it looks. I would much prefer a measurement to a gauge.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on April 06, 2021, 04:01:34 PM
Maybe, just maybe, if I make up some additional L shaped jaws, I could use this spring loaded internal indicator to measure the bores in situ. I should end up with a 2mm gap between the bar and the inside bore. Should be just enough room for the new jaws.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1080632small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1080633small.JPG)

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: bent on April 06, 2021, 05:24:09 PM
Mike, that line boring jig is a neat idea, thanks!  PS - have not been following this thread much, as this is an order of magnitude above my skills and abilities, but do occasionally pop in to see the progress.  Hoping to see/hear it run someday, keep up the good work!

Edit: re-re-reading what you wrote...any reason not to use ball bearings instead of plain aluminum bores?  I guess cost and the fact the block needs to slide as well as rotate along the bar?
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on April 06, 2021, 07:45:59 PM
Bent,

Thank you for your comment, and I also read your piece on the 'response' topic. As you say; you must never forget to learn and learn how to learn from others. My machine shop skills are all self taught, mostly from reading model engineering magazines and from forums like this one.

28mm ball bearings, to carry the boring bar, are not a common size so i opted for plain bushes. I could have made and fitted bronze bushes. However I went for the simplest approach, to run in plain aluminium. They only have to last long enough to do the two engines. You could call it value engineering?

Today, I did the lathe installation. Three jaw chuck at one end and a live centre at the far end. A side link from the engine attaches to the toolpost; the connection allows some flexibility. The crankcase needs to travel some 160 mm (6.5") I have tried a feedrate of 150 mm/ min and a spindle speed of 300RPM. Everything is well oiled and runs smoothly and feels under control. However, both parameters can be easily changed, as necessary, when I start to cut metal.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1080635small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1080636small.JPG)


Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on April 06, 2021, 08:49:23 PM
That sounds quite a high feed rate at 0.5mm/rev, I would have been thinking about 1/10th of that or less
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on April 06, 2021, 11:14:28 PM
Jason,

You are quite right about the high feed rate. I need to think lathe not mill. 150mm/min would be more appropriate to a high speed milling cutter than to a single point boring bar.

However, it served it's purpose to prove the set-up before cutting metal. I hope to do some of that before the end of the week.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: john mills on April 06, 2021, 11:32:45 PM
Hi
I like your set up   you seem to have measuring sorted not easy when there is now room.I often had to use inside callipers .The feed rate .5mm Per rev was what was used often for rough cuts on a cnc machine i used at high spindle speeds that can remove metal quickly  but that was a good-sized machine whith the guard shut.
  John
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Hugh Currin on April 07, 2021, 01:49:06 AM
Mike:

I like the boring set-up. It eliminates the shimming of the cankcase to the exactly right height when clamping to the carriage. Nice.

I was going to ask about measuring the bore, but that was answered. I do like the idea of a plug gage for this.

Glad to see you back on this project. Plan to follow as Internet allows.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on April 07, 2021, 07:20:14 AM
It's not just the single point that reduces the feed rate, its the rpm and at 300 on the lathe instead of 3000 you might use on the mill you would want 1/10th. of the feed rate. 0.5mm pitch per rev is getting into thread cutting :o

Another thought on the measuring, as you are quite tight for space and just running the tool in plain aluminium would a small nick in the tailstock bearing plate be worth adding. That would allow the bar to be withdrawn with the tip of the tool still projecting without unscrewing the two bearing plates and risking them going back slightly out of position. This would allow whatever form of measurement you want to take or test fitting the bearings.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on April 07, 2021, 08:55:55 AM
An interesting set up  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp: I await the first cuts  :)  :wine1:

Henry Greenly showed a much more basic version for boring without a cross slide including an automatic feed.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on April 07, 2021, 10:40:33 AM
Jason,

I noted your comment about feed rate the first time around. I moved the boring bar through the crankcase at 150 mm/ min to check for freedom of movement etc. Even so, it still took over a minute to traverse from one end of the crankcase to the other. And yes I will reduce the feed rate when I start cutting metal but most of the time it will only be cutting fresh air between the journals.

Hugh/ Roger.

This guided boring bar method is quite common in full size and oversize marine engineering, where the engine block (or whatever) is too large to fit on even the largest lathe. It also has the advantage of eliminating the shimming and alignment problems associated with clamping the block onto the carriage. It is less commonly used for model engineering but not unknown. Roger, what was the publication date of Greenly's book? 1915 or thereabouts.

Hugh, I have lost touch with your movements. Are you still traveling and exploring?


Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Hugh Currin on April 07, 2021, 01:51:04 PM
Mike:

That's OK, I've kinda lost touch also. But here's the cliff notes summary.

The Pandemic threw a monkey wrench in our 2020 travels. We did buy a house in Prescott, AZ and spent the summer there. That gave me a chance to move machines from Oregon and set up the big shop. I also decided, since we're spending 4-5 months a year in Brenda, AZ, outside Quartzsite, and have a permanent shed, that I should set up a small shop there. I obtained a Precision Mattews PM728 (benchtop Taiwanese mill) and a PM1022 (10" Chinese lathe). Over the winter, in Brenda, I bought a CNC conversion kit for the mill, added steppers and a controller and have it running. I'm also CNCing the lathe which has taken more design work and I'm probably 2/3 though this conversion. I hope to finish both up next fall/winter including rudimentary chip enclosures.

I'm currently not using the Sherline for traveling. It took too long to set up for less than a week or so in one place, and chip control became a real problem. But, the Sherline lathe convinced me a CNC lathe was a useful addition.

Longer term we still plan to travel, probably 4-5 months a year. Winter in Brenda (Quatzsite) and travel summer with a few months in Prescott when everyone else is traveling (crowded). It's a simple plan and could change. We hope to head out mid to late April, real soon now, for the summer. (where shop time is zero and Internet is scarce)

Did you and your grandson Lewis complete the Stirling engine? I still have parts for mine and plan it to be the first project when the small shop is up and running. I need to complete that build thread. Hopefully next winter.

Thanks for asking. I hope I'm not eating up too much space on a very nice build thread.

Stay safe.

Hugh, I have lost touch with your movements. Are you still traveling and exploring?
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: bent on April 07, 2021, 04:20:18 PM
Vixen, thanks for the clarification.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on April 07, 2021, 05:19:42 PM
Mike:
That's OK, I've kinda lost touch also. But here's the cliff notes summary.

Thanks for the update. I had to look up those place names on the net. Brenda and Quartzsite seem to have a magnetic attraction for RV's, must be the warm winter sunshine and I guess Prescott is cooler in the summer. Good to hear you can do some machining in both places.


Stay safe

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on April 27, 2021, 09:30:39 PM
After a forced absence for a few weeks, today I was  able to get back into the workshop and able to make some progress with line boring the main bearing journals on the first Mercedes W165 crankcase.

I thought again about how I would accurately measure the hole diameter and decided a stepped plug gauge was the best way to go. I have made stepped gauges before and have always found them very satisfactory in achieving a 'fit' to the nearest 'thou'. You can see the stepped gauge I made for the 32mm bearings. There are three initial steps, each of 5 thou. followed by 6 steps, each of 1 thou. Each step is 1/8" (3.2mm) wide. Depending on which step enters the bore, you can easily determine the depth of cut required to achieve the final diameter.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0020small.JPG)


The only downside of the stepped gauge is the need to completely remove the crankcase from the boring bar to make the measurement. I was able to do this by removing only the front bearing block. The front bearing block is deeply spigoted into the front of the crankcase which helps ensure accurate repositioning.

The finishing cut is always the moment of truth, so measure twice, three times, maybe four; then set the final depth on the microbore adjuster. There is something rather satisfying about hitting the required diameter spot on.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1080621small.JPG)


Here, you can see the boring operation in progress. The crankcase is supported off the boring bar by the front and rear bearing blocks. The lathe carriage moves the crankcase along the bar via the flexibly mounted torque arm.

I found I could increase the spindle speed to at least 1000 RPM without vibration problems. The journals were bored at a reduced feed rate of 70 mm/min but that feedrate would have taken ages to traverse the full length and back again; so I wrote a short CNC program to add some rapid moves  between each of the five bearing journals. Each cut now took a little over 2 minutes to traverse the length of the crankcase and return to the starting point. I applied copious quantities of light oil to the bar to lubricate the two aluminium bearing blocks. That worked well and there was no detectable wear at the end of the job. The bearing blocks should still be good enough for use on the second engine's crankcase.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1080636small.JPG)


Here, you can see the five bearing journals, all to the correct diameter with a fine finish and perfectly in line

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0013small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0016small.JPG)


Here, you can see the rearmost bearing journal with one of the 32mm ball races in place. The rearmost journal also carries the engine oil pumps, which feeds lube oil to each the main bearings.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0017small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0018small.JPG)

A very satisfying first day back in the workshop

Mike

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: cnr6400 on April 27, 2021, 09:48:39 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Dave Otto on April 27, 2021, 10:04:06 PM
Hi Mike

Nice work getting that tricky operation completed!
One step closer.

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: 90LX_Notch on April 27, 2021, 10:57:02 PM
Mike-

Spectacular.

-Bob
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on April 27, 2021, 11:58:29 PM
I really like that boring set up!   When you get a chance could you send a few photos of the bearings and the boring bar adjusting set up?

Glad to see your posts Mike...

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: crueby on April 28, 2021, 12:02:09 AM
Stunning work, very inspiring!
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Art K on April 28, 2021, 03:18:42 AM
Mike,
Seems that I've missed a lot and had to play catch up. I must say I like the micro bore set up. At work I bore the parts out but noting so elegant as your W165. I have to set up a scrap part and tap the cutter back and forth to adjust the diameter. I do trust my lathe to cut properly. I wouldn't trust my ability to center it properly on the crosslide, which has no ability to bolt anything on it, except for the round T slot. Great work as usual.
Art
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jo on April 28, 2021, 08:05:42 AM
Well done Mike, another tricky challenge solved with a bit of ingenuity  8)

Jo 
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on April 28, 2021, 11:45:55 AM
Thanks Jo and everyone for calling in, that's especially welcome in these times of forced isolation. The MEM forum is one of the few places to show and talk engines with fellow,  friendly model engine makers.

Jo, necessity is the mother of invention and ingenuity. Not all of us are blessed with machinary as accurate as your Mr Silky (Hardinge). Actually, I think the 'bearing on the crankcase' method may actually be simpler and achieve better concentricity, than the uncertainty of packing, shimming and aligning the crankshaft onto the carriage/cross slide. Many lathes (such as my old Chipmaster) are devoid of Tee slots on the cross slide.

Dave, if you refer back to reply #294, 5th April, you will find some photos of the bearings and the boring bar adjusting set up. The bearing blocks are simply 10 mm thick aluminium plate with an accurately bored holes for the bar.

I bored milled the holes using a G03 (circular interpolation) command. You can play around with the declared diameter of the cutter to fine tune the finished bore diameter. The bearing surfaces are supplied with generous qualities of lube oil and did not appear to wear.

Incidentally, the larger 8.0 mm Mirobore insert (the one on the right in reply #294) with the triangular insert is now surplus to my requirements. Anyone interested?

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Laurentic on April 28, 2021, 08:16:51 PM
  :ThumbsUp: Nice one Mike, loved the method, not seen that before, am impressed by its logic and simplicity

Chris
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on April 29, 2021, 11:19:53 AM
Nicely done  :praise2:  :praise2:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Craig DeShong on April 30, 2021, 02:34:53 AM
Mike, your work is a constant source of inspiration.  I love following along.

 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on April 30, 2021, 01:11:27 PM
Thank you all for calling in  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Craig, I am fascinated by your crazy poppy-uppy thingies, Never seen the like before. :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:


Just completed the line boring of the second crankcase. It went much quicker than the first as I knew the required setting to achieve the 32 mm bore.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0021small.JPG)


I am very impressed with the ease of use and accuracy of these Microbore inserts. It takes all the drama and guess work out of the task. I do not expect to ever need to bore a series of 32mm holes in the future, so I will probably relegate the bar to the stock shelf and use it to make other engine parts. The Microbore insert will be carefully saved for another day and another diameter.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: RReid on April 30, 2021, 03:18:58 PM
I've been enjoying your latest posts, but as a newer member wasn't here at the beginning. I just went back and read the first couple of pages, and really enjoyed the history and background you provided. Also your patience in using AutoCad to trace scanned images of complex parts is as impressive as your machining!
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: JonC on May 07, 2021, 08:40:36 PM
Outstanding work Mike, replicating something like this with such dedication to the original as you have done is no mean feat.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on May 07, 2021, 09:01:41 PM
Thanks Jon,  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

I can say the same about your Cosworth.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: JonC on May 07, 2021, 10:21:02 PM
Difference being you have little to reference and are well on the way to finishing a beautiful piece of engineering.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on May 07, 2021, 11:09:27 PM
Part 13  Dry Sump Cover (Oil Pan)


Some background info:

Any racing engine is at grave risk of oil starvation and loss of oil pressure, if the oil in the sump is thrown to one side or one end, away from the pick-up pipe, during sustained cornering loads or rapid acceleration or braking. Most, if not all, racing engines therefore employ a 'dry sump' lubrication arrangement. The Mercedes Benz W165 was no exception.

The lubrication oil, supplying the pressure pump,  is drawn from a large external oil tank, which ensures a constant and reliable supply of the vital oil. Separate, large capacity 'scavenger pumps', remove the 'used' lubrication oil and return it to the external oil tank via a large oil cooler. The 'used' oil is often whipped to a froth by the fast rotating engine parts, so the scavenged oil is cooled and allowed to de-aerate and settle in the external oil tank before making another journey through the engine.

 The W165 was designed to utilize the engine oil as a significant part of the overall engine cooling system. It was fitted with number of separate  'scavenger pumps' to ensure all the 'used' oil was removed as quickly as possible.
Two 'scavenge' pumps drained the front and rear sections of the dry sump (oil pan). A separate 'scavenge' pump extracted used oil from the two camboxes, another drained used oil from the camshaft drive gear train, while yet another 'scavenge' pump extracted oil from the two supercharger compressors.

I have already posted a description of how I made the the multiple pressure and scavenger pump assembly. Now is the time to make the rather elaborate dry sump cover. The original was a very impressive light alloy casting, but I will be machining the model dry sump cover from a solid billet of aluminium. It became a very involved exercise in tool path planning and machining, which occupied me for much of the winter. The CAD drawing and tool path generation could be done in the warmth of my office and the machining was done in the outside workshop whenever conditions allowed. I find I am becoming less tolerant of cold working conditions as I get older.

I prepared for the machining, by carefully clamping a large billet of 6082 (HE30 TF) on the mill bed, the block's size was very close to the limits of travel of my Emco mill, so careful positioning was essential. I bolted two additional location plates to the bed to allow the blocks to be removed and requisitioned accurately between some of the machining operations.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1080527small.JPG)


Here is one of the two 200mm x 100mm aluminium blocks about to meet it's fate.

"Can you see what it's going to be yet, Ralph?"



More to follow in the next few days

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on May 08, 2021, 07:11:33 AM

"Can you see what it's going to be yet, Ralph?"


It's going to be a big pile of swarf and a little bit of metal left.  ;)

Would be interesting to know what the before and after weights are.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: fumopuc on May 08, 2021, 08:37:38 AM
Hi Mike,
I am always surprised that our metal dealers do know exactly what we expect inside of a just bought piece of metal and they have hidden it inside already.  :LittleDevil:
I will following along with interest.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on May 08, 2021, 10:35:11 AM

"Can you see what it's going to be yet, Ralph?"


It's going to be a big pile of swarf and a little bit of metal left.  ;)

Would be interesting to know what the before and after weights are.

Well... the block started off at 1.37Kg (that a little over 3 lb) so there is plenty of potential for a big pile of swarf. You will have to wait for the finished weight.  :LittleDevil:

Achim, I did not go for the option where the dealer knows whats hidden inside. Instead I went for the cheaper "Kinder Surprise" option and will need to peel all the metal away to find out whats inside. Sometimes I am lucky and a nice engine part is hidden inside. Sometimes, there is only a useless lump of misshapen metal.

You pays yer money and takes yer chance.   :lolb: :lolb:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on May 08, 2021, 07:09:36 PM
The Dry Sump continued.

The inside of the dry sump cover was hollowed out in a series of layers. The depth of each layer being determined by the internal features. The bottom of the M165 dry sump cover is divided up into two deep sections. One at the front is for the forward scavenge pump pick up, while and a deeper one to the rear which also houses the multiple oil pressure and scavenge pump unit and the rear scavenge pump pick up.

I tried a new CAM program called Estlcam to create the toolpaths from my CAD drawings. Estlcam offeres an option for Trochoidal and Peel milling in addition to the normal rectangular and raster pocketing.

Peel milling is an approach that uses high feed rates, low radial depth of cut and high axial depth of cut. It relies heavily on the principle of chip thinning, using a tool path that maximizes tool wear along the entire flute length. The resulting tool path is a series of overlapping circular and arc movements with a constant width of cut. I used 10% tool diameter to define the width of cut. Trochoidal and Peel milling overcome the feed rate problems associated with rectangular pocketing where the tool engagement suddenly increases to 180 degrees of engagement in the corners of a pocket.

The inside of the dry sump cover was roughed out in a series of steps using the peel milling method. The mill table moved more rapidly than I have used before and the swarf came away as a shower if fine needles rather than chips. The constant width of cut meant the feed rate could be maintained at a constant higher speed, the metal removable rate was therefore a lot higher,

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1080529small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1080532small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1080533small.JPG)


Here you can see the completed roughing out cuts which were made with a standard end mill. The next operation is to use a ball bill to radius the corners of the pockets and add the 3D slopes.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1080535small.JPG)


Here are the tool paths I created to do the 3D contouring using a 6mm ball mill. The depth intervals were typically 0.25 mm (10 thou) but you can see these were made closer in areas with a more rapid change of slope.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1080520small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1080519small.JPG)


Here you can see the result of the 3D countouring and corner radius operations. Very little hand finishing will be required to smooth surface of the 3D contoured areas.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1080536small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1080537small.JPG)


This final image shows the dry sump, after the internal machining operations, alongside the engines crankcase

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1080526small.JPG)


Stay tuned, there is more to follow in the next few days

Mike

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: fumopuc on May 08, 2021, 08:01:13 PM
Hi Mike, I like these kind of swarf / chips very much. My wife not, specially if she detect them in the bathroom.
Good to know, that you have found with Estlcam the way now to do this kind of milling also.
I my eyes it is very useful for our not so rigid hobby machines.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on May 08, 2021, 08:10:23 PM
I can see some similar parts for the 917 engine there... Nice set ups!

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on May 08, 2021, 08:40:47 PM
Looking good so Far. I tend to use those type of cuts a lot in F360 which they call "adaptive" quite satisfying watching the rooster tail of swarf flying out

For the finishing ones they have one called Scallop which moves the tool by a given stepover no matter what the angle of the surface or you can split it into more vertical or horizontal and have vertical stepdown or horizontal stepover.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on May 08, 2021, 09:01:06 PM
Hello Jason,

This type of rapid machining has several names. I rather like the term 'Peel' milling as it describes the process of removing a deep but thin shave cut rather well. Yes the rooster tail of needles looks impressive but they tend to stick to your clothing more and can get transferred into the house, which is bad news.

I am sure F360 has more capabilities but I have not kept up with the computer 'arms race' so I am unable to use it or even the 'free' version.. Are all the milling options still available on the 'free' edition?

Mike.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Craig DeShong on May 08, 2021, 10:29:34 PM
Sometimes I am lucky and a nice engine part is hidden inside. Sometimes, there is only a useless lump of misshapen metal.

You pays yer money and takes yer chance.   :lolb: :lolb:

Mike

Boy oh boy, have I been there before  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on May 09, 2021, 07:18:32 AM
You get almost all the milling options on the free one. "steep and shallow" is not available and is even an "extra" if you pay the yearly subs but similar results can be had with a little more work on the CAM. Rapids are probably the biggest loss but again depends on what your max is on the machine, mine is set at 1500mm/min not 10m like a pro machine can handle. As the CAM comes out with the rapids the same as the feed rate then this type of cutting is useful as you get faster rapids than if you were using a slow feed, playing with stay down distances and non engaged feed rate can also help keep overall run time down.

What sort of height and feed did you use on that, I tend to do most work with 6mm, 3-flute carbide cutters and 6mm high x 1mm stepover does not stress the machine when run at 5000rpm and a feed of 500-600mm/min. I did scare myself yesterday when I had put 1500mm/min for the ramp feed rate and was using a helical ramp to enter the work but it went alright as I had preedrilled part diameter and the iron flywheel came out OK :-[
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: fumopuc on May 09, 2021, 07:34:43 AM

I am sure F360 has more capabilities but I have not kept up with the computer 'arms race' so I am unable to use it or even the 'free' version.. Are all the milling options still available on the 'free' edition?

Mike.


Hi Mike, if it does not involve a 4t or 5th axis machining so far yes.
The only exception I do know is this (https://help.autodesk.com/view/fusion360/ENU/?guid=3D-STEEP-AND-SHALLOW-READ).
If you are interested into the Fusion milling strategies (https://help.autodesk.com/view/fusion360/ENU/?guid=MFG-MANUFACTURING-MODEL-OVERVIEW), may be this will help to get an overview.
Everything what is not included is marked with the blue extension sign.



Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on May 09, 2021, 10:04:10 AM
What sort of height and feed did you use on that, I tend to do most work with 6mm, 3-flute carbide cutters and 6mm high x 1mm stepover does not stress the machine when run at 5000rpm and a feed of 500-600mm/min. I did scare myself yesterday when I had put 1500mm/min for the ramp feed rate and was using a helical ramp to enter the work but it went alright as I had preedrilled part diameter and the iron flywheel came out OK :-[

This was the first time I have used the 'peel'/ adaptive milling strategy for real, so I was somewhat cautious (or timid) with the feeds and speeds. Like you, I used a 6 mm 3-flute carbide cutter at about 5000 RPM, the motor gets too noisy if I go beyond 5000. My depth of cut was governed by the geometry of the part being made, typically around 6 mm or a bit less. I  selected a 10% width of cut (step over), which equates to a 0.6mm step-over cut. I worked the feed rate up to about 400mm/min. The machine felt comfortable with these settings and I am sure I could have driven it a lot harder. I will try a wider step-over cut and a faster feed rate next time I have the opportunity.

If I were to do the same work on cast iron, steel or brass, which parameters would you expect to change?

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on May 09, 2021, 11:13:23 AM
Hi Mike, if it does not involve a 4t or 5th axis machining so far yes.
The only exception I do know is this (https://help.autodesk.com/view/fusion360/ENU/?guid=3D-STEEP-AND-SHALLOW-READ).
If you are interested into the Fusion milling strategies (https://help.autodesk.com/view/fusion360/ENU/?guid=MFG-MANUFACTURING-MODEL-OVERVIEW), may be this will help to get an overview.
Everything what is not included is marked with the blue extension sign.

Achim,
It looks like there is still plenty of useful CAM available with the 'free' version of Fusion 360. However, as I am deeply committed to Linux, I am not planning to purchase a new WIN 10 machine just to run 'Free' Fusion. I can make do with my DesKAM and EstleCAM software. They are still quite capable but certainly they do not so many of the advanced strategies available in Fusion. However, they will be adequate to keep me working for the foreseeable future.

Thanks for your advice

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on May 09, 2021, 01:08:58 PM
For Iron I would drop down to 4000rpm, feed at 400mm/min and reduce the height a bit to say 5mm but keep stepover as 1mm. Does depend a bit on the individual job if there are a lot of tight internal corners I may sow the feed a bit so it is reasonable when the engagement goes up and height I tweak to give an even number of cuts so for say a 16mm deep total I will run 3 passes at 5.33mm rather than 3 of 5mm and then have to do another at 1mm.

These are all climb milling as I find the machine sounds a lot happier doing that even though using "both ways" can save some time particularly without the rapids
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Hugh Currin on May 09, 2021, 03:14:37 PM
It looks like there is still plenty of useful CAM available with the 'free' version of Fusion 360. However, as I am deeply committed to Linux, I am not planning to purchase a new WIN 10 machine just to run 'Free' Fusion.

Mike

Mike: I'm hoping to run Fusion 360 on my Linux machine. The path I'll try is to use Virtualbox which is a virtual machine inside Linux. I believe it looks like an application within Linux. Then install Windows on this virtual machine and Fusion in that. I have Virtualbox installed but ran into difficulty installing Windows. The version of Windows I purchased came on a thumb drive and Virtualbox need an ISO disk. I need to download a Windows ISO but don't currently have the bandwidth to do so. When I find a good connection I'll continue the process.

So it may be possible, I'll let you know. Fusion looks like a nice cost effective package for design and CAM that it would be worth jumping through a few hoops.

P.S. I've tried dual booting for other programs in the past, but that was a real pain to use.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Hugh Currin on May 09, 2021, 03:19:57 PM
Mike:

The engine is amazing. You are a magician. Thanks for posting the build, I'm following along.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on May 09, 2021, 04:22:23 PM
Thanks Hugh,

I remember that it was you would helped me make my first step into LinuxCNC. So, if you can also help with getting Fusion to run in Linux, I will be doubly grateful.

Thanks

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on May 09, 2021, 10:06:07 PM
Been rather busy working on my big bike, to get it out on the road again - so not much replying here, but I still read and follow your amazing build Mike  :praise2:

Per
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on May 09, 2021, 10:13:08 PM
Hello Per,

Good to hear from you. Sounds like you have the best idea.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Warmer days, longer nights, big bikes, the open road and bugs on your teeth because of the big grin on your face. :ROFL:

Enjoy

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: kvom on May 10, 2021, 12:52:40 PM
With this type of milling, I'd always set DOC to the target depth (or flute length if deeper), and adjust stepover/feed/rpm to match.  Minimize stickout.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on May 10, 2021, 07:32:40 PM
Thanks Kvom and everyone else.

Together you are providing the sort of useful information that helps get the most out of this new (to me) machining strategy.


Dry Sump continued:

Before the embryo dry sump cover was flipped over for the out side machining, I profiled the bottom flange and drilled the mounting holes. There are 31 closed pitched 2.5 mm bolts holding th sump to the bottom of the engine....... looks like they did not want it to fall off :Lol:

I also took the opportunity to hack saw some of the excess material away from the sides; less material to mill away later. I left full width lands front and rear, these were used to register the block, after it was flipped over, and to provide a clamping area.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1080539small.JPG)



The first stage of the external machining was to reduce the height of the front section. Then I used a 5 mm ball mill to create the row of flush cooling fins in the middle of the sump and to 3D profile the front of the deeper rear section.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1080541small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1080544small.JPG)



Here I have started to profile the cooling fins which run down both sides of the sump cover and to 3D profile the sides around the rear section.

You will notice I could not complete the machining across the rear because the hold down clamp was in the way. The tool path had to be modified to go up and over the clamp rather than through it.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1080549small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1080565small.JPG)



Then I used a 3mm Woodruff key cutter to form the fins on both sides. Sorry,  but somehow I did not record this stage with the camera. The fins on both sides were cut to the required full depth along the sides but the Woodruff key cutter did not have sufficient throat depth to reach the bottom of the fins where they curve inwards at the very front. These fins can be completed by hand later, using Swiss files.

Then it was back to the ball mill cutter to 3D profile the front curves of the sump. By now the remaining bits of material, used for locating and clamping, had served their purpose and were machined away. A different method of clamping the sump to the mill bed had to be used for this stage.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1080597small.JPG)



Here the first dry sump cover is nearing completion. The semi pillars around the inside will support a baffle plate use to reduce the used oil from sloshing around in the dry sump during the long high speed corners and during braking. You will also note the small well at the rear, this is to provide a small pool of oil to lube the oil pump assembly gear train.

You can see that I have yet to complete the machining across the back face of the sump.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1080603small.JPG)



I think the side fins were originally continuous along the sides. The scallops over the mounting bolts were added later, as an after thought, when the engine mechanics realised how much time was being wasted using open ended spanners to undo all those nuts securing the dry sump in place, a socket or box spanner was so much quicker.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1080604small.JPG)


Most of that 1.37Kg block has been reduced to a huge pile of chips. The finished weight of the completes dry sump will be revealed in the next installment from Vixen's den.

So stay tuned

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: tvoght on May 10, 2021, 07:54:03 PM
The work is incredible. This sump part really catches the imagination for what is possible.

estlCAM is also Windows software, but you  say (or at least imply) that you are using estlCAM on Linux. I have searched about and it seems many people have had success using it with Linux Wine emulation. Is that true in your case?


--Tim
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on May 12, 2021, 09:40:36 AM
Tim, Hugh, Achim, Jason, Don, Chris

Hi guys,

Together, we have started a very interesting discussion on advanced 3D CAM and 3D machining. I hope this discussion will grow and grow in value and will become a useful reference for other members of the MEM community who have similar interests.

I have created a brand new topic "Advanced 3D CAM and 3D Machining" and moved some of the recent content from the Mercedes engine build log over to the new topic.


Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on May 12, 2021, 07:40:24 PM
The final machining on the two dry sump covers has been completed and they have both been given a cleanup to smarten their appearance.

The dry sumps both started life as a 1.37Kg (3 lb) billet of aluminium which was converted into a mountain of chips (needles) to reveal a usable engine part. The finished part weighed in at 0.16Kg (5.5oz); that's 88% of the billet removed by machining. The remaining shell thickness was typically only 1.5mm. so I must have got the toolpaths about right

Here you can see one of the dry sump covers in place under a part completed engine. The extended bump on the right side, at the rear, is where the oil pump assembly fits.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1080606small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1080610small.JPG)

This final photo was given to me by Daimler Benz and shows the full size engine during a re-build at the factory.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/2864292BOlwa__smallsmall.JPG)



Not too shabby for a 40 year old mill, 25 year old software and an even older Mike :old:

Thats one more part completed, still many still to do.

Mike

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on May 12, 2021, 07:50:08 PM
Looks better than the real thing :)

You have probably said before but what's the final finish as it look nice and uniform is it blasted or just careful use of an abrasive by hand?
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on May 12, 2021, 08:01:28 PM
Jason

Thanks for the compliment.  :ThumbsUp:

The surface finish was achieved with medium size glass bead media blasted at about 7Bar. I recently bought a 8Kg tub off e-bay for about £30. The beads are hard and round (not the cheap crushed glass variety) The glass beads produce a smoother 'peened'  finish than the aluminium oxide grit I was using previously. That produced a rougher finish (ideal for bonding paint). The beads also produced very little dust in the cabinet, so I could clearly see what I was doing.

I expect the 'new' to disappear with time as the aluminium surface slowly oxidises to a darker shade of grey.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on May 12, 2021, 08:15:28 PM
Thanks Mike I may give some a try as I used my budget Aldi gun with some ali oxide for the first time to clean up a part after silver solder fabrication the other day and was pleased with the outcomel but thought it would be too rough for an ali crankcase. Will still need some handwork but should replace the garryflex block final rubbing.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on May 12, 2021, 10:25:59 PM
I'm again thoroughly impressed with your work Mike - not least because how you create all the G-Code  :o

I don't even want to think about how many errors I would end up with, doing it your way - not to mention the amount of smashed tools  :-[

I agree with Jason about the comparison to the original (that admittedly has a lot of years of wear, tear and corrosion).

Per
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Craig DeShong on May 12, 2021, 11:17:45 PM
Mountains of swarf.... no doubt!


Looks fantastic Mike.   :ThumbsUp:

 :popcorn:  :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on May 13, 2021, 01:28:00 PM
I agree with Jason about the comparison to the original (that admittedly has a lot of years of wear, tear and corrosion).

Per

Yes Per, that engine was built 83 years ago and has seen a bit of life.

I have found out a bit more about thier history, which may be of interest to some of out members.

Some more history of the W165 1.5 litre Grand Prix cars

Grand prix motor during the 1930’s was driven by intense nationalistic fervor. The might of the “Silver Arrows” was the result of a virtually limitless budget, illustrated by the fact that for the 1938 season no fewer than 14 cars and 19 of the 3 litre supercharged GP engines were built by Mercedes-Benz for the nine races they competed in that year. It was also owing to this vast budget that Mercedes-Benz could even consider designing and building a brand new 1.5 litre car just for the 1939 Tripoli Grand Prix and to do it in less than eight months. It is believed that the Mercedes-Benz factory may have built four cars, but only two were completed in time for the Triploi race.

History shows the two W165 cars dominated the Tripoli race with Herman Lang taking first place and Rudi Caracciola following closely behind. This was to be the only race the W165 cars competed in, before the clouds of war brought motor racing to a stop in Europe for many years.

Mercedes-Benz continued to develop their racing cars during 1939 and into 1940 despite world events. The W165 was modified to use a more powerful two-stage supercharger to replace the single stage unit used for the Tripoli race. I have copies of some blueprints, which were signed off for production, dated July 1940. I based my 1/3 scale model of the engine on these blueprints.

By 1941 events were taking their toll on the Mercedes race organisation, the engineering staff were being re-assigned to essential war production work or were being drafted into uniform. The decision was made to disperse the cars to safe locations further to the East. Cars and equipment were to be stored in secure locations, which include abandoned mine shafts, as far away as Czechoslovakia and Romania. The two 1.5 litre W165 cars were walled up in a deep cellar, in a secret location, near Dresden. One car was in almost  complete , the other was partially disassembled.

Towards the end of 1944, Germany was being pressed from both directions, US/UK forces from the west and the Russian steam roller from the East. Mercedes-Benz decided to relocate what they could into safer locations. The two W165 cars at Dresden were disinterred and transported by road to the border with Neutral Switzerland. At the border, the cars were impounded by the Swiss authorities and later released to the care of the Mercedes Swiss distributor in Zurich,  on payment of all the import duties and taxes.

When peace returned to the world, Caracciola, now a Swiss resident, was invited to race a W165 in the 1946 Indy 500. Apparently one of the W165 cars was resurrected and prepared for this race. despite problems in finding spare parts of any description. Particularly replacement, aircraft grade, fuel piping for the corrosive fuel. Unfortunately, the Allied Authorities refused to release the car for temporary export. Caracciola, still went to Indianapolis, now to drive an American car. Unfortunately he was badly injured in a high speed crash during qualifying.

The two surviving W165 cars were eventually returned to Mercedes-Benz in Stuttgart where they lingered in the museum collection for nearly 50 years. It was an invitation from the Duke of Richmond to demonstrate the Tripoli Grand Prix winner at the 1995 Goodwood Festival of Speed that prompted the two cars to be restored, including new body shells. Lang’s winning car has since been shown and run at several Goodwood  events, while the ex-Caracciola machine was placed on permanent display in the Mercedes-Benz Museum in Stuttgart

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/dbf7c492-088f-11e6-9c83-6b4abe1d17a9small.JPG)

During my researches, I found a copy of this print. It shows Lang (16) and Caracciola (24) leading away from the pursuing pack of red Italian cars at the start of the 1939 Tripoli GP race.



Hope you find this little bit of history interesting

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: ddmckee54 on May 14, 2021, 03:16:06 PM
Mike:

Back in Post #338 you showed a screen shot of the dry sump that showed the depth of cut for each layer.  How did you generate those lines?  I've got my suspicions, but "Enquiring minds want to know".

Don
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on May 14, 2021, 10:23:11 PM
Thank you for the history info - very interesting story.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on May 14, 2021, 10:27:43 PM
Thank you for the history info - very interesting story.

Thanks Per, that makes the effort worthwhile.

MIke
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on May 14, 2021, 10:37:19 PM
Mike:

Back in Post #338 you showed a screen shot of the dry sump that showed the depth of cut for each layer.  How did you generate those lines?  I've got my suspicions, but "Enquiring minds want to know".

Don

I have replied to this post in the    Advanced 3D CAM and 3D machining topic

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Craig DeShong on May 15, 2021, 09:10:29 PM
Thanks for the history regarding the cars and engine you are modeling.  I always find that knowing the history of the subject you are modeling is part of the story and adds interest to your model when you show it and can explain it's place in history.

Thanks again and thanks for sharing your journey of building this fascinating model with us.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Art K on May 15, 2021, 10:26:46 PM
Mike,
I have always been fascinated by the stories about how stuff like this came into being. Good to see what your doing and how you go about making it.
Art
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on May 16, 2021, 06:53:38 AM
Excellent as ever  :praise2:  :praise2:  :wine1: I do enjoy the history  :)  :)

Did I miss the making of the exhaust manifold?
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: fumopuc on May 16, 2021, 08:58:02 AM
Hi Mike,  good to see here all the historical detail. Thanks for that.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: AVTUR on May 16, 2021, 11:39:20 AM
Mike

When they were raced what fuel did they use? A methanol based or a petrol based fuel?

I know Alfa Romeos after the War were racing on methanol and I thought methanol was always used at Indianapolis.

AVTUR
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on May 16, 2021, 12:17:10 PM
Thanks everyone for your generous comments. I am pleased you liked the side track into the background history.

Researching the history of these race cars has not been easy. Their history pre-dates the internet, all you find there is hearsay and myths. You need to dig a lot deeper and read a lot of books, even then, the true facts are scarce.  :happyreader:

Roger, the one exhaust manifold is only a 3D plastic print to confirm the shape will fit. I have yet to consider how to fabricate it. Some jobs you can keep putting off for a long time. :shrug:

AVTUR Yes, the racing fuel they used contained methanol but it also contained a lot more besides. I am in the middle of preparing a piece which will be titled " When industrial chemists went motor racing". You will have to wait a few more weeks for it to be completed. You may find that fuel cocktail rather interesting.

Avgas  NO, Avtur, NO    The Silver Arrows ran on pure dope.   :zap: :zap:

Stay tuned

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on May 16, 2021, 05:24:21 PM
I thought I would take a short break from all the 2.5D and 3D tool paths and 3D machining. It can make your head spin.

I decided to have a go at some of the engines internal pipework by way of a change. To do that, I needed to make a small bend radius pipe bender specifically for 5.0 mm copper tube. I based my pipe bender on the design used by Steve "Old Bill" to bend the external pipes on his 1909 Mercedes aero engine.

It did not take long to make, using offcuts and scrap pieces from the 'come in handy one day' box. Some of you may recognise the rear bearing block from the crankshaft line boring exercise is being re-used as the bed plate. There are one or two changes to the "Old Bill" design; I use two bolts on the adjuster to stop the slide bar from rocking, Similarly I added a third roller for the same purpose. This bender is designed to bend 5.0 mm copper pipe around a tight 5.5 mm internal bend radius. However is can easily be adapted or modified for other sizes of pipe or bend radii.

The 5.0 mm diameter groove in the slide bar and the rotating bit were made with a 5.0 mm ball ended cutter. The 10 mm AF hex was quickly done by indexing on the 4 th axis unit. The three brass rollers spin on hardened steel shafts, but this is realy not necessary to harden the shafts as they do such little work.

The pipe bender can easily be adapted for other tube/pipe diameters by machining a different diameter grove in one of the other faces of the slider and making another rotator with an appropriately sized groove at whatever bend radius is required.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0032small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0034small.JPG)


A few 90* test bends pointed out the need for an internal bullet to prevent the 5.0 mm copper tube from flattening on the outside. A piece of angle iron was used to anchor a length of 4.0 mm steel rod inside the copper tube. The steel bullet rod needs to be clamped sufficiently far away from the bender to allow for a long length of stock tube.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0035small.JPG)


In the photo below; the bend on the left was made from, as delivered, hard copper pipe without the central bullet. You can clearly see the flat on the outside. The middle bend was made the same way after the copper had been annealed (heat to bright red then quench in cold water). The flat is much reduced but still there. The final bend on the right was made with annealed copper and with the internal steel bullet rod, as you can see the bend is perfectly formed without the dreaded flat on the outside. The internal bullet is positioned inside the copper tube just short of where the bend commences. Somehow it prevents the outside of the tube from collapsing inwards

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0037small.JPG)




The bending part was easy, once the bender was set up properly. Not so easy was getting the second or third bend in the correct place or at the correct angle to the previous one. Lots more copper pipe found it's way into the scrap bin until I eventually discovered the knack.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0043small.JPG)

There was no excuse now but to try it for real on the model. So stay tuned for the next episode from Vixen's Den

Mike

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Kim on May 16, 2021, 05:48:27 PM
... The final bend on the right was made with annealed copper and with the internal steel bullet rod, as you can see the bend is perfectly formed without the dreaded flat on the outside. The internal bullet is positioned inside the copper tube just short of where the bend commences. Somehow it prevents the outside of the tube from collapsing inwards

You really got a nice bend there!  I'll have to remember this technique.

So, is the bullet rod the exact internal diameter of the tube you're bending?  And what shape is it on the end?  Does one assume its 'bullet' shaped since that's the name of the rod?

I would have thought the 'bullet' needed to go in the end of the jig that turns, so the bullet could stay tangent to the part of the tub that is bending.  But in your jig, it looks like it is in the stationary part of the tube.  Is this right?  Or maybe I'm not following it very well?

Thanks,
Kim

PS - Sorry, moved my question over to your 'tool' cross post of the bender.  Seems like a better place to ask the question!
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on May 18, 2021, 04:20:27 PM
As Kim intimated, the pipe bender discussion and it's operation has been moved to https://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,10352.msg236219/topicseen.html#new    where it is receiving a lot of interest from both Steam and i/c engine builders.

In the mean time, I have pressed ahead and attempted the 'snake pit' of plumbing inside the dry sump of the first W165 engine. I all went reasonably well, however most bits of pipe had to be attempted several times as I experimented to get the perfect distance between consecutive bends. I quickly discovered that because of local work hardening, it was virtually impossible to correct a slightly misplaced bend. Better to start again with a new length of annealed copper pipe. Lots of copper pipe was consumed in the process and the scrap bin is a lot fuller as a result.

I became so carried way that I completely forgot the camera and so only have the completed work to show you.

The first picture shows an overview of the bottom of the engine and the dry sump cover. Note the horizontal baffle plate around part of the dry sump, it was there to prevent the waste oil slopping arround during tight cornering, acceleration and braking

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0044small.JPG)



This close up shows the pipework in more detail. The larger 5.0 mm pipes handle (on the left) the fresh oil coming from the external supply tank, (on the right) the scavenged oil outgoing to the oil cooler and filters and (in the centre) the drain pipe from the front scavenge pick up (not yet made). You can also see the smaller 2.3 mm pipes which feed oil from the oil pump to each of the five main bearings. The bend radius of the 2.3 mm pipe are large compared to the pipe diameter and were formed by bending the pipe around the outside of a 16 mm diameter bar.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0052small.JPG)



The battery of oil pumps have already been described, a long time ago, in section 10, which started at reply #191. You will recall, there are a number of pumps, both pressure and scavenge pumps mounted together 'en block' onto the rear main bearing cap. The bronze block on the left of the pump block, together with the first thin aluminium section act as a manifold to direct the oil flows to the various individual pump sections. The first wide section is the pressure pump which provides pressure fed oil to the five main bearing caps. The next slightly thinner pump section provides pressure oil to the four overhead cam shafts. After that is a slightly wider pump section which scavenges used oil from the front of the dry sump. That is followed by the rear sump scavenge pump section with an integral pick up strainer. At the extreme right are the pressure and scavenge pipe connections to the four overhead camshafts. This pipework will be added later in the build.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0045small.JPG)



The next two photos compare the 1/3 scale model with the full size engine. It realy is a 'snake pit' of pipes and snake oil. There is evidence in the full size engine of numerous repairs to the pipes, possibly as a result of vibration and metal fatigue.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0046small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/2867_1292BOl__small.JPG)
                                                                                                                                           This image, is courtesy of Daimler Benz.



Now I have to repeat all of that on the second engine

Mike

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: tvoght on May 18, 2021, 04:59:49 PM
Absolutely fascniating. And beautiful work.   --Tim
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on May 18, 2021, 05:01:36 PM
A plumber's nightmare  ::) Crack a critical pipe and goodbye engine  :toilet_claw:

Excellent work  :ThumbsUp: The second one will be much easier  :Lol:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Kim on May 18, 2021, 05:37:06 PM
Wow!  That's just amazing work!  Not just the pipe, but the whole build...

Kim
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: ddmckee54 on May 18, 2021, 07:10:19 PM
Having had to deal with bending tubing for hydraulic test stands all I've got to say is...  Them's some nice bends there Bubba!

Don
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on May 18, 2021, 11:21:01 PM
A plumber's nightmare  ::) Crack a critical pipe and goodbye engine  :toilet_claw:

Thanks everyone for calling in.

Complexity and reliability never go together well and the W165 was an extremely complex little race car. In that far off era, Grand Prix races were much longer than today's. They pushed the machinary to their limits and sometimes beyond, mechanical reliability suffered. It was not unusual for 25% or more of the entrants to retire early, due to mechanical ailments. Mercedes and Auto Union would often field a team of three, four or even five cars in the hope that one would survive as the winner.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on May 24, 2021, 03:34:25 PM
One more piece of the jigsaw completed. Many more still to do.

I have completed? the oil pump pipework for both engines and also added the front suction pickup funnels. There are two discs of fine brass mesh to go under the course honeycomb strainers.
Need to think of some way to cut the brass mesh perfectly circular.   :headscratch:

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0145small.JPG)

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: crueby on May 24, 2021, 03:50:26 PM
Stunning work!
For cutting thin sheet stock, I'll usually clamp it between two sheets of wood then cut through the lot with a bandsaw or jig saw. Could that work for the mesh? Maybe leave the last little bit uncut in a couple places, then trim those seperately, in case things shift when making the last bit of the circle.  Or, depending on the thickness of the stock, I'll press the sandwich of wood and metal between the faceplate and tailstock center on the lathe and trim with the lathe cutter.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: tvoght on May 24, 2021, 04:10:00 PM
They probably wouldn't be available with your exact dimensional requirement, but it's worth checking into pre-cut circular "pipe screens" for smoking pipes.  They are available in brass and stainless steel. I have looked into the stainless steel ones for use in Stirling engine regenerators.   --Tim
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on May 24, 2021, 05:14:57 PM
Hello Chris. Tim

Thanks for the suggestions. I am tempted to try turning the mesh disks sandwiched between two sheets of wood but I am a bit worried about the mesh being pulled apart at the edges by a saw or lathe tool. I will give it a try and see what happens. I suspect the mesh needs to be stamped or sheared (scissors)
The pre-cut "pipe screens" would be ideal if they came in my size; 23 mm dia. Must be a different type of smoking pipe to my old Peterson's tobacco pipe.  :vomit:

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/_T2eC16hHJHkFFluElZPjBSNNpsuq21g~~60_12.JPG)

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: ddmckee54 on May 24, 2021, 06:00:19 PM
I'd be a lot more work, but what about soldering the brass screen where you intend to cut it?  (Or even super glue.)  That would keep the small bits of the mesh from coming apart as you handle it.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on May 24, 2021, 06:14:25 PM
I'd be a lot more work, but what about soldering the brass screen where you intend to cut it?  (Or even super glue.) That would keep the small bits of the mesh from coming apart as you handle it.

Jeez Don,

Have you seen me with super glue? I still get my fingers stuck together and also to the hand tools and everything.

But you are right, it should stop the edges from fraying. Dissolve the glue with acetone afterwards?

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: petertha on May 24, 2021, 06:31:23 PM
Mike, these superglue tips are dirt cheap & work wonders for precise applications. Unfortunately there are no standards when it comes to the tapered stems of typical CA glue bottles & the wide end of the tip could benefit by being a little more flexible to conform IMO. But they seal & work well once on. I've used them on thin through thick CA with no issues, so could probably be extended to Loctite, light oils & such.  Check prices they vary all over the map but generically seem the same. My guess is their real purpose is lab or pharma use but someone got the bright idea that hobbyists could benefit too.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on May 24, 2021, 07:14:47 PM
I would have thought a simple punch and die could be turned up quite quickly may not even need to be silver steel for just a few discs of non ferrous gauze
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on May 24, 2021, 07:59:12 PM
Thanks for all those useful suggestions.

I think I will make a first attempt by using superglue to bond the mesh to the perimeter of some 23 mm dia aluminium in the 3 jaw, sandwiched by a second piece pressed by the tailstock. Hopefully that will will turn OK with a sharp tool and the superglue will stop the mesh from fraying at the edges. I can be-bond and clean the mesh discs with acetone.

If that does not work, then I will try a simple punch. I have some gauge plate off-cuts, which should work without hardening.

Cheers   :cheers:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Art K on May 24, 2021, 11:09:27 PM
Mike,
Another thought is a faucet screen, not sure how big they are or if they're fine enough but just a thought. Looks great by the way. I have a little experience trying to bend 3/16 tube so it come out in the right location. It's not always that easy. Do you still have to solder the tubes in place to the fittings? Lead or silver solder? I have heard the term rats maze for lots of tubes like this.
Art
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Steamer5 on May 25, 2021, 10:32:40 AM
Hi Mike,
 Stunning work! I’m just gob smacked.

On your brass screen, nice sharp scissors should do the trick, at a guess it’s a reasonably fine mesh, I made some stainless ones years ago and that cut fine. A couple of words of caution DONT USE YOUR WIFES SCISSORS!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on May 25, 2021, 12:07:17 PM
Amazing result so far Mike  :praise2:

Not all scissors are useful here - if you got a sharp and 'tight' pair of metal ones they migth make it easy and I'm sure a tight and sharp punch will work very well too.

The big bike is almost back on the road now - I just picked up a new 'declutching mechanism' (outside part on engine) on my way to work today and my first attempt at gluing the new heated grips failed - but thats about it.

Best wishes

Per
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: fumopuc on May 26, 2021, 04:55:11 PM
Hi Mike,
this model looks like a real race engine.
Very impressive.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on June 01, 2021, 06:26:07 PM
Thanks everyone for looking in and for your generous comments. Achim, it IS a real race engine, it's just a bit smaller than the original.

Now, it's time to make some progress on the cam shaft gear train. Some of you may recall this attempt, last year, at laying out the gear train. Since then, I have received more information about the engine. Interestingly, both pairs of inlet and both exhaust camshafts are mirror images of each other and turn in opposite directions. I had though they would be identical copies, each pair turning in the same direction. The new information means I can delete the left hand 48T idler gear. The simplified gear trail now only has three 50 T idler gears, which meant a slight re-design to move the gear centres around a little.



(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1080021small.JPG)





I have made a start by machining the front face of the camshaft drive gearbox to the revised layout. This important component is physically larger than the travel available on my Emco Mill; so the job had to be completed in four separate set-ups by moving the gear drive plate around on a fixture plate. The fixture plate was made from an off-cut of mahogany left over from making the huge Bristol Jupiter propeller. The gear drive plate was located and secured by a number of M3.0 screws into threads tapped into the wood. The wooden threads survived lng enough to machine the two gear drive plates, but I would not recommend wooden threads for a long production run.  :ROFL:

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0148small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0147small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0150small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0151small.JPG)




Here is one of the completed gear drive plates. "Holy Macaroni Batman, he's gone and made a secret Bat Signal"

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0153small.JPG)



Here is the new gear drive plate loosely attached to the back of the engine. Next, I will attempt the new bridge plates which carry the idler gears and provide the means to adjust the way they mesh with the four camshaft and crankshaft gears. Chopping out the idler gears will be fun, if not a little tedious.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0155small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0156small.JPG)



It's getting quite busy at the back of the engine. So, stay tuned

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: fumopuc on June 01, 2021, 07:07:47 PM
Hi Mike,
and more impressive.
Sometimes I am missing the good old days with 10 cylinders and nearly 20.000 revs.
But times does change and it is good so.

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on June 01, 2021, 07:18:25 PM
Achim,  :ThumbsUp:

Back then, it was a V8 doing 8,400 RPM with 2.6 Bar of boost and a toxic devil's chemical cocktail for the fuel. They made a lot of noise and smelled like marzipan or almonds.
Times change

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Craig DeShong on June 02, 2021, 12:44:11 AM

Here is one of the completed gear drive plates. "Holy Macaroni Batman, he's gone and made a secret Bat Signal"

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0153small.JPG)


And here I thought it was a cross-eyed bat saying “ohhhhhhhh”.  :ROFL:

impressive work as always Mike, can’t wait to see every new installment.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Dave Otto on June 02, 2021, 01:12:23 AM
Hi Mike
Nice work on the new pieces!

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: cnr6400 on June 02, 2021, 05:24:27 PM
Great work Mike.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: I'd still try a powerful light behind the bat plate on a cloudy night and see if the bat symbol is projected on the clouds (and if the caped crusaders or cops show up)  :Lol:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on June 02, 2021, 06:31:15 PM
I'd still try a powerful light behind the bat plate on a cloudy night and see if the bat symbol is projected on the clouds (and if the caped crusaders or cops show up)  :Lol:

I tried that the other night.

All that happened was two men in white coats came and tried to take me away.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: cnr6400 on June 02, 2021, 07:19:04 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :Lol:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: ddmckee54 on June 03, 2021, 03:26:10 PM
Vixen:

I know those two guys, they always say they're from the funny farm.  Did they have that sharp looking jacket that's all sleeves, straps, and zippers with them?

Don
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on June 06, 2021, 12:31:54 PM
Mirror image camshafts  ::)  :thinking: that sounds like a recipe for disaster unless they are very well identified.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Craig DeShong on June 06, 2021, 02:12:45 PM
Mike, I just realized this engine is big enough to put in a kid’s go cart.  Imagine the bragging rites: 

I have a souped-up lawn mower engine in mine….

Well, I have a Grand Prix racing engine in mine!
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on June 06, 2021, 04:13:18 PM
We are back on topic again.... Strange how just one mention of the name B**man brings the schoolboy out of grown men :shrug:

Mirror image camshafts  ::)  :thinking: that sounds like a recipe for disaster unless they are very well identified.

Mercedes must have decided there was an advantage to be gained by using those mirror image camshafts. As you say, Roger, I will need to be very methodical to get them right.
 I am lucky in that I do not have to deal with fuel injection as well.

Mike, I just realized this engine is big enough to put in a kid’s go cart.  Imagine the bragging rites: 

I have a souped-up lawn mower engine in mine….

Well, I have a Grand Prix racing engine in mine!

Craig,

It may be a V8      and it may be built to a large 1/3 scale     but it was a tiny 1.5 litre engine to start with.    The 1/3 scale replica only displaces 55 cc, compared to the average 100 cc lawnmower engine. 

Cheers  :cheers:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Art K on June 07, 2021, 03:24:53 AM
Mike,
Yeah I had to chuckle when I saw this. But would the go cart go zoom zoom. :thinking:
Art
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on June 21, 2021, 08:14:16 PM
The British summer is over :ThumbsDown: :ThumbsDown:

The bad news is: it's raining every day again.  :ThumbsDown: :ThumbsDown:  The good news is: all garden work has stopped and it's machine shop time again.  :D :D :D

I have made a start on the two Bridge Pieces for the camshaft drive gear train. The Bridge Pieces will carry the camshaft idler gears and will allow them to be adjusted to take up the backlash between the crankshaft, the four camshafts and the magneto drive.

The Bridge Pieces were machined from 8.0 mm HE30 (6082) plate. They are mostly 3.0mm thick with one or two bosses for the idler gear spindles. Three M3 fixing screws, recessed into the 3.0mm section, will hold the Bridge Pieces to the rear of the engine. The toolpaths were created with Estlcam. Again, I used trochoidal pocketing; deep cuts with 10% step-over and high feedrates, to quickly remove the excess material in a shower of fine needle swarf. I am becoming comfortable with trochoildal (peel) milling. It removes material quickly, the feedrate remains constant throughout, as the width of cut never exceeds the specified limit. I set a 10% limit.

Here are two screenshots showing the trochoidal toolpath to achieve the 3.0mm thickness and also the toolpath for the two cutouts.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0202small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0204small.JPG)



Here you can see one of the rough sawn 8.0 mm blanks with two M6 bolts securing it to a fixture plate held in the machine vice. Then, when part machined and at the end of the machining

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0208small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0205small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0207small.JPG)



The second Bridge was a bit more of a challenge as there was only one M6 bolt position. This time, I machined the smaller M3 screw pockets first and used two M3 screws in addition to the single M6 bolt to secure it to the fixture plate

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0214small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0215small.JPG)



Here are the two machined Bridge Pieces and you can see where the mount on the rear of the engine. The spindles for the idler gears will fit inside the reamed bosses.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0217small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0216small.JPG)



The next stage will be a long slog to cut six 50 tooth idlers gears and four 32 tooth gears for the crankshaft and magneto drive.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: RReid on June 21, 2021, 08:24:49 PM
Here in California we'd be more than happy to take some of that rain off your hands. I'm enjoying following your build though!
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: gbritnell on June 21, 2021, 10:38:57 PM
I'm still following along. Beautiful work on the engine! The gear train is really something!
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on June 21, 2021, 10:57:51 PM
Mike - it really starts to look like Machine Porn  :praise2:

Nice that the weather supplies you with shoptime - but will it be a showstopper for the next Guilford Show you and Jo has been talking about ?

Per
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on June 22, 2021, 12:46:11 AM
Daaaaaamn Sexy!
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: crueby on June 22, 2021, 01:40:40 AM
Wow.  Just,  wow.    :praise2:    Even with just those gears so far, looking like Terminator's pet Turkey!  Awesome.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Laurentic on June 22, 2021, 10:10:30 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:   Nice Mike, like it
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: cnr6400 on June 22, 2021, 12:26:11 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on June 22, 2021, 07:13:51 PM
Yet more excellent machining  :praise2:  :praise2:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Laurentic on June 22, 2021, 09:37:02 PM
Mike - I am sure you must have stated it somewhere but, out of interest, what is the bore and stroke of the model engine you are building here please?  It will help me get a feel of the size of this model.  I have to say the standard of your workmanship is something I can only dream of achieving, it is superb! 

Chris
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on June 22, 2021, 11:34:24 PM
Hello Chris,

I am sure the bore and stoke info is back there somewhere, but you said you also wanted to get a feel for the size of the model.

OK, but first a bit more of it's history. The 1.5 litre V8 M165 and also the 3.0 litre V12 M163 were both developed for the 1939 racing season from the highly successful 3.0 litre V12 M154 of 1938. It would seem that Mercedes Benz had so much money, they could not spend it fast enough. The 1.5 litre V8 and the 3.0 litre V12 shared many common design features and shared many component parts. The M165 was essentially 8 cylinders of the V12 engine, however the cylinder angle had to be opened from the 60* V12 configuration to the 90* angle needed for a V8. Furthermore, both the bore and stroke had to be reduced to meet the 1.5 litre requirement. The result was a physically large engine with only a small capacity. Both of the 1939 engines featured twin compounded supercharges delivering 2.6 Bar of boost pressure and highly doped fuel.


The full size Mercedes-Benz M165 engine had a displacement of 1,495 cc. The bore and stroke being 64  mm x 58 mm

The 1:3 scale model of the M165 engine will have a displacement of 55.4 cc and a bore and stroke of 21.3 mm x 19.3 mm

The 1/3 scale M165 engine fits into a cube; length 316 mm, width 250 mm and height 205 mm.  Big engine; but small capacity.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: simplyloco on June 23, 2021, 09:23:30 AM
I'm looking forward to seeing this soon!
John
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: JonC on June 23, 2021, 08:53:31 PM
Mike, this is superb work.

Will you need to change the design of the gear train cover to accomodate the idler gear carriers or have you "sunk" them back into the block to avoid doing this?

Jon
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on June 23, 2021, 10:22:06 PM
Hello Jon,

The Bridge Plate, carrying the idler gear(s) is bolted to the gearcase front half, as you will have scene in previous photos. The spindle boss on the Bridge Plate and the bearing spindle, hide neatly in the raised bosses in the front and rear gearcase parts.

Here is a screengrab of a typical idler gear. You should be able to see how I have incorporated the Bridge.Plate

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IDLER-1.jpg)



Externally it will look similar to these external idler gear bearing bosses from a different Mercedes engine. I believe this to be an early W154 V12 engine, I do not have any photos of the W165 gearcase.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/Silver_Arrow_Gala_in_the_Louwman_Museum_W125__V12small.JPG)


Clear as mud??

Mike

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Laurentic on June 24, 2021, 09:43:24 AM
Mike - many thanks for your comprehensive reply on the engine size, bore and stroke, all now very clear.  As you say, a big engine with a small capacity.

You can see the advantage in Merc reusing ready designed components which may also have given them a time advantage in its design and build; the 'correct' way of course would be to do a complete redesign but they obviously had other priorities at that time!

Chris.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on June 24, 2021, 10:42:31 AM
Chris,

The easiest and quickest way for Mercedes Benz to get a 1.5 litre engine from a 3.0 litre V12 would have been to simply use 6 cylinders of the existing V12 W163 design and changing as little as possible.. An in-line six would need the same size racing car, whereas a V6 would make a very compact installation and allow a smaller racing car to be built around it.

However, Mercedes Benz decided on an new engine design with a V8 configuration to obtain a shorter stoke, higher revving engine. A V6 version could have produced something like 240 BHP at 7,500RPM whereas the V8 actually produced 254 BHP at 8,250RPM.  Over 5% more power............. that's the way to win races.

The history books say the new engine and car were designed, built and won it's one and only race in just eight months. That's time pressure.

Question: How do you make a little money from motor racing? Answer: spend a bigger fortune.  :facepalm:

Mike   :cheers:

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: kvom on June 24, 2021, 12:13:29 PM
I suppose the 1939 start of WWII rather crimped racing right away.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on June 24, 2021, 12:47:44 PM
Well, not quite. The Yugoslav Grand Prix took place in Belgrade a week after the invasion of Poland. National level racing continued in Italy and Germany for while longer.

Mercedes Benz continued to develop the 3.0 litre W163 and the little 1.5 litre W165 throughout the rest of 1939, through 1940 and until other priorities took precedence in early 1941. By 1942, things were taking a turn for the worse and the Mercedes stable of race cars were dispersed far and wide and hidden.

One of my blueprints for a modified supercharger for the W165 was signed off for production in June of 1940; while Europe burned.  :Mad: :Mad:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Laurentic on June 24, 2021, 10:45:23 PM
Mike - from a (probably nearly) blank piece of paper to a new car with a new engine that won its first race in only eight months is indeed very impressive.  Its good to read a bit of history around the model you are maiking, thank you for that.  :ThumbsUp:

Chris
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 20, 2021, 04:38:25 PM
A week of torrential rain which brought devastating flooding to parts of Germany, followed immediately by a week of record high temperatures, with more to come. Climate change is real.

So I have been able to return to the workshop and make some slow progress with the camshaft drive train for the Mercedes engine.The next items, on the seemingly endless list, were six off 50 tooth 0.8 MOD idlers I decided to make seven, just in case.    :zap:

The job started by cutting 7 off 10 mm wide slices from a bar of 50 mm diameter EN8 [080m40] steel. EN8: is an unalloyed medium carbon Steel having higher strength levels compared to normal bright mild steel,  it is also somewhat harder to machine.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0252small.JPG)


The blanks were drilled through at 11 mm in preparation for boring the 13.0 mm bearing journals

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0253small.JPG)


I will be using 13 mm OD ball races [SKF 618/6] so needed to ensure the bores were machined to the exact size. To make this task easier I made up another stepped plug gauge. You can just make out the 1 thou." steps. It is then easy to slip the stepped gauge into the bore and read off the exact depth of cut required to bring the bore to the final size.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0255small.JPG)


I machined the bore, the outside diameter and face recess all at the same setting to ensure concentrically.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0257small.JPG)


The blanks were then flipped over, in turn, to complete the face recess on the other side. The blanks are now ready for their appointment with the tooth doctor

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0259small.JPG)


I turned a 13 mm stub mandrel to hold the gear blanks in a collet chuck mounted on my 4th Axis unit. You will recall the 4th axis unit was made form a redundant Emco Compact 5 lathe bed.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0260small.JPG)


I used an inexpensive Chinese involute cutter with brush-on water based coolant/ lube. I was a little concerned for the durability of these inexpensive Chinese involute cutters as I planned to cut at least 350 teeth in EN8, which is not the friendliest of steels to machine. However the cutter did a splendid job.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0261small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0262small.JPG)


I use this looped LinuxCNC program to cut each of the teeth and increment the A axis after each tooth has been cut. I went round twice, first to rough out the teeth and a second time as a spring cut at the same setting to refine the tooth shape.

The gear cutting program should be self explanatory as I have added individual line comments:

G20                    ( I prefer to use Inch units)
#1=50               ( number of teeth)
#2 =[360/#1]    ( A axis increment angle)
#3=-0.1             ( Y clearance for return)
#4=0.4              ( X position start of tooth)
#5=-0.15           ( X position end of tooth)
#6=0                 ( A axis start position)
#7=2.0              ( X an Y feed rates)
#8= 0.0693       ( depth of tooth, from cutter markings)

G0 Z0                (
G0 X#4 y#3      (
G0 A#6             ( go to start of tooth)
M3 S200 M8      ( start spindle)

o200  do                 (start of loop)
          G1 Y#8 F#7  (
          G1 X#5         ( cut tooth)
          G0 Y#3         ( retract cutter)
          G0 X#4         ( go to start of next tooth)
          #6=[#6+#2] ( increment tooth angle)
          G0 A#6          ( move A axis for next tooth)
o200 while [#6 lt 359.9]  ( repeat loop for 360 degrees)

M30           (stop spindle, gear complete)


The looped program eliminates the old machinists question:
"Well I've got this far, but I may have lost my place on the dividing head, What do you want me to do with the last few teeth? Do you want one fat one or two skinny ones?"    :ROFL: :ROFL:


Mike






Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: kvom on July 20, 2021, 08:17:22 PM
#4=0.4              ( X position start of tooth)

G0 y#4         ( go to start of next tooth)

Some contradiction here.  I think the sequence there

is G0 X#4
   G1 Y#8

I there really any benefit to the Y clearance move vs. a spring retract in X inside the tooth cut?
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: cnr6400 on July 20, 2021, 08:33:19 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Gear work looks great Mike. Your text about fat/skinny teeth reminded me about drawing errors in industry about fastener holes in die blocks for press tools. Toolmaker would notice an error in a hole position for a fastener, that would place the hole centre across the block edge. He would call the designer on the phone. Frequently the designer would say something like "FOR %$%'S SAKE JUST MAKE IT TO DRAWING FOR ONCE, YOU ^$~!@$% !!". Toolmaker smiles and says "okey dokey" and calls me (I did all the shop's CNC programming at the time) asking for a thread milling program to make half a hole on block XYZ123, threaded 1/2"-13. Not wanting to get in the middle of the argument, I do the task exactly as requested, and the shop goes to work making half a hole in the block, carefully fitted so a bolt fits and holds in place. The foreman was usually not too impressed at this sort of stunt, except with the workmanship. Designers in those days learned quickly to be a little more graceful when an error on their drawings was reported, but it did happen more than once. Similar job was half a cooling passage on the outside of an injection mould core insert block or similar. Usually caught in the toolroom before any wet floors resulted, but once in a while the joke went quite far along!
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 20, 2021, 08:39:52 PM
#4=0.4              ( X position start of tooth)

G0 y#4         ( go to start of next tooth)

Some contradiction here.  I think the sequence there

is G0 X#4
   G1 Y#8

I there really any benefit to the Y clearance move vs. a spring retract in X inside the tooth cut?

Hello kvom

Thanks for pointing that out. It's not a contradiction, but a simple typo while writing the post.

The correct instruction should be   G0 X#4  (go to start of next tooth)     not G0 y#4.      I have gone back and corrected the original.

Please can you explain what what you mean by "a spring retract in X inside the tooth cut", I dont understand what this means,   :headscratch:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 20, 2021, 08:46:38 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

 Toolmaker would notice an error in a hole position for a fastener, that would place the hole centre across the block edge. He would call the designer on the phone. Frequently the designer would say something like "FOR %$%'S SAKE JUST MAKE IT TO DRAWING FOR ONCE, YOU ^$~!@$% !!".

Ha ha,      We used the specification MIL TBD 41 in similar circumstances. It stood for "Make It Like The Bloody Drawing, For Once".

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on July 20, 2021, 09:06:57 PM
Nice to see progress again Mike  :cheers:

Quote
#6=[#6=#2] ( increment tooth angle)

It's probably just me, not being too familiar with G-Code .... but I would expect something like :
#6=[#6+#2] ( increment tooth angle) .....  :noidea:

I have never made a subroutine in G-Code so far ...!

Per
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 20, 2021, 09:32:16 PM
Hello Per,

You are correct ; it should be #6=[#6+#2] ( increment tooth angle) . Looks like I forgot to hit the shift key and got = when I wanted +.   :facepalm:

The actual program works great, it's just me being unable to type it here without errors. Lets put it down to the hot weather(or old age :old:), making it difficult to concentrate.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on July 21, 2021, 11:43:52 AM
We have a Danish saying that goes something like this :

Quote
You should not throw stones, when you live in a Glasshouse.

So I stopped throwing (Verbal) stones loooong time ago  :old:

I think I just would have used the 'Copy & Paste' function - partly lazyness and partly because I was born dyslexic
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 21, 2021, 12:29:52 PM
Thanks for the advice Per.

However, 'Copy and Paste' is not such an easy option when you have two computers, each with a different operating systems (Linux and Windows), located in two separate buildings, with no network connection in between.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 21, 2021, 12:55:17 PM
I thought you would like to see the finished idler gears. Six plus a spare.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0290small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0288small.JPG)


While the gear teeth were being cut I applied a water based coolant/ lube to the involute cutter with a paintbrush. After cutting nearly 350 teeth, a large stalagmite had formed on the lathe bed. This upward-growing mound of chip deposits had precipitated from the coolant dripping from the bottom of the gear wheel.

What a mess  :censored: I will make a metal bed cover to make cleaning up easier before the next gear cutting session.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0268small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0271small.JPG)


Here the stepped bore gauge is being used to check the bearing fit.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0277small.JPG)


The meshing of a pair of gears being checked on one of the Bridges. Nice fit, no interference and no measurable back-lash.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0280small.JPG)


The next job is to make up and fit the stub axles to all the Bridges.

Mike

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: kvom on July 21, 2021, 01:32:21 PM
By spring pass I mean just moving the cutter back through the cut without a retract.  I'll wager most people doing manual gear cutting do this.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 21, 2021, 01:40:50 PM
Thanks kvom, now I understand what you had in mind. Yes, that would work.

The programmed retraction of the cutter does ensure the cutter is clear of the gear blank when the A axis is incremented. As with most machining tasks, there are usually several equally good ways to achieve the required result.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Kim on July 21, 2021, 06:18:52 PM
Those are beautiful gears, Mike!

And the stalagmite is pretty neat too.  Just think what it could grow into in a few million years!

Kim
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 23, 2021, 06:31:54 PM
Thank you Kim, The stalagmite grew a lot taller on a couple of occasions but fell over each time, before I could find the camera.

I managed to get some more (hot) workshop time today. So I set about making the stub axles for the cam drive idler gears.

The stub axles were a straightforward grooving and turning to length job. I like a straightforward job once in a while.

Here you can see all the idler gear components after cleaning, de-greasing and awaiting assembly.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0291small.JPG)



A pair of ball races were pressed into each idler wheel with a smear of Loctite to bond them in place. The E clips were fitted to the stub axles which were then pressed into the idler gear bearings. The Stub axles are bonded into the Bridges with Loctite 648 high strength retainer. I wanted a small clearance to give a minimum amount of float to the bearings, so I slipped two typing paper spacers (total thickness 0.007") onto the axle shafts before they were bonded into the Bridge. I will give a couple of hours (overnight) for the Loctite to fully cure before pulling out the paper spacers. I may have to soften the paper spacers with a little water, we will see.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0293small.JPG)



The gears mesh perfectly, no binding or any measurable back lash. Things are looking promising.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0295small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0296small.JPG)


Here are the two bridges roughly in position on the back of the engine . It looks like this redesign may just work. But first, I need to make and fit the magneto drive gear at the top centre and a output gear for the crankshaft, before the final gear meshing and positions can be confirmed.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0297small.JPG)


One more job done and out of the way, many more to follow

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: crueby on July 23, 2021, 06:54:40 PM
Stunning gears, wow.   :popcorn:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: cnr6400 on July 23, 2021, 08:20:21 PM
Zahnradfabriken von Mike has been busy! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 23, 2021, 08:37:52 PM
Ja, das Zahnradfabriken von Mike habe Überstunden gemacht   :lolb: :lolb:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: RReid on July 23, 2021, 08:47:20 PM
Holy Wow Batman!! That looks fantastic! :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on July 23, 2021, 09:17:21 PM
You're getting close to making (engine-) Porn again Mike  :praise2:

Oh - and I'm very familiar with the problem of having to "Copy Paste" between two different computers - even with the same OS, it's a pain  :facepalm:
The reason I didn't think of this in your case - has to do with my own - I do all CAD/CAM, Coding, WWW, etc. on the same PC - the others are in different workshops + one connected to the CNC @ Work ....
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Art K on July 24, 2021, 02:56:51 PM
Mike,
Impressive work on the idler gears!
Art
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jo on July 25, 2021, 09:59:03 AM
You're getting close to making (engine-) Porn again Mike  :praise2:

I understand what you are getting at Per but without the bit in the brackets the phrase "Making Porn" sounds decidedly wrong  :stickpoke:

I don't understand a word of the foreign lingo  :headscratch: I assume it says "good stuff", which it is  :)

Jo
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on July 25, 2021, 10:16:51 PM
Sorry Jo - don't want us (or me) to end in trouble - it's just getting rather hard to find new superlatives ....

Second paragraph was a reply to a comment from Mike earlier about why he didn't do it the simple way (answer : not possible) and I gave a condensed Tech (in the same language) reply, to why I hadn't considered this .... Sorry if it got a bit to special.

Back to subject - I really love to see the masters here do their thing (craft + ingenuity)  :praise2:
But that is not to say that beginners (and every-thing / -one, in between) builds are not part of what is important here. So who ever that got the time and interest to do the effort in posting here - PLEASE do  :cheers:

Per
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: crueby on July 25, 2021, 10:31:58 PM
You're getting close to making (engine-) Porn again Mike  :praise2:

I understand what you are getting at Per but without the bit in the brackets the phrase "Making Porn" sounds decidedly wrong  :stickpoke:

I don't understand a word of the foreign lingo  :headscratch: I assume it says "good stuff", which it is  :)

Jo
Google translate gave this:   "Yes, Mike's gear factory was working overtime"
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on July 25, 2021, 10:38:04 PM
Thank you Chris for the (saving) translation.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: JonC on July 26, 2021, 08:51:55 AM
Incredible work Mike.

Love following this build.

Jon
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Laurentic on July 26, 2021, 03:42:57 PM
What lovely work, beautiful gear train, yet more to drool over  👍

Chris
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 02, 2021, 04:01:18 PM
Thank you all, for your generous comments.  :embarassed:


........ But first, I need to make and fit the magneto drive gear at the top centre and a output gear for the crankshaft, before the final gear meshing and positions can be confirmed.
Mike

Well that was easier said than done. The bearings for the magneto drive gear are buried inside the Magneto mounting adapter, so that part needed to be made and finished before I can get to cutting the gear itself. Nothing on this engine is ever straightforward.  :wallbang:

The two magneto mounting adapters started life as a length of 60mm diameter HE30 (6082) round bar. The conical recess at one end was profiled out using a standard boring bar, following the required pocket profile.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0299small.JPG)



The outside profile was contoured using a insert parting tool fitted with a 2.0 mm wide, 1.0 mm radius insert (MRMN 200). These inserts will plunge and can cut to the left and right provided you keep the dept of cut small enough. Typically 0.015".

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0301small.JPG)


Here you can see the two end flanges being machined on the mill

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0304small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0305small.JPG)


The two part completed magneto mounting adapters only just came out of the available length of stock material with very little to spare. There would have been a delay if I had to order in some more.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0307small.JPG)


The final task on the magneto mourting adapters was to cut a square access hole in the top of the adapter

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0314small.JPG)


Next, I turned my attention to the Magneto drive coupling and the gear hub with it's vernier adjuster. Both items were drilled, reamed, turned to shape, then drilled and tapped; all at the same setting to ensure everything was concentric.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0319small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0322small.JPG)


The bores were then broached to take a 2 x 2 mm key. You can see some of the chips are still inside the teeth of the broach, these need to be removed before the next use. The coupling and gear hubs were mounted on a 6.0 mm shaft for the rear faces to be turned to size on the lathe.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0324small.JPG)


Here is a family shot of the two magneto mounting adapters and the coupling/hub parts.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0328small.JPG)


The two 6.0mm SKF bearings have been pressed in place, together with the drive shaft and gear hub. Note the 17 holes drilled and tapped M2.0 in the gear hub. These allow vernier adjustment of the angular position of the 32 tooth magneto drive gear in 0.6 degree steps. (360 degrees, divided by 32 teeth, divided by 17 positions)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0329small.JPG)


These final photos show the assembled Magneto mounting adapter loosely mounted in the vee between the two banks of cylinders. What a lot of work to get a shaft on which to mount the magneto drive gear.   :thinking:

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0330small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0334small.JPG)


While I had the camera out, I took and additional shot of the oil plumbing around the oil pumps and crankshaft bearings.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0316small.JPG)



Thats all from this episode from Vixen's den.

Stay tuned, there is lots more to follow.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jo on August 02, 2021, 04:20:14 PM
Good progress on the Merc bits Mike  :)

... Nothing on this engine is ever straightforward.  :wallbang:


If it was easy then it would not be a challenge worth tackling or feel as rewarding once done  ;)

I think we might need to be reminded just how big (small) this engine is  :thinking:

Jo
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on August 02, 2021, 05:31:07 PM
Excellent as ever  :praise2: :praise2: As Jo says we need a picture with the smiley mug  :)
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Kim on August 02, 2021, 06:28:04 PM
Love those beauty shots, Mike.  Your work really looks amazing!

Kim
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 02, 2021, 07:18:19 PM
Excellent as ever  :praise2: :praise2: As Jo says we need a picture with the smiley mug  :)

I cannot imagine anyone would want to see a picture of my ugly mug, so I guess you must be referring to this one.

You also get the bonus of seeing the 'exploded' supercharger display


(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0338small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0339small.JPG)


The old mug took a tumble over the winter and is now glued together with superglue.

Jo, This engine (these two engines) are a challenge in every way. Did you realise,  I have been posting progress (or otherwise) on and off for the past five years. What we need now is a 'real' old fashioned model show where we can all meet up, show off a little and just simply chatter to each other.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: cnr6400 on August 02, 2021, 07:19:34 PM
Fantastic Mike! Looking great.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

The shown cams must be the ultra low lift variant........    :Lol:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 02, 2021, 07:33:44 PM

The shown cams must be the ultra low lift variant........    :Lol:

Give them a little longer, I am sure something will grow: it's fertile ground :ROFL:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on August 02, 2021, 07:41:00 PM
 :)  :)  :)  :wine1:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: simplyloco on August 02, 2021, 07:50:42 PM
Excellent! As usual... :praise2:
John
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on August 21, 2021, 02:05:19 PM

The shown cams must be the ultra low lift variant........    :Lol:

Give them a little longer, I am sure something will grow: it's fertile ground :ROFL:

Mike


Im getting the W165 DT's here.........just sayin!    :cheers: 8)
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: cnr6400 on August 21, 2021, 02:54:40 PM
Mike may have been busy in August watering and weeding the cams, hopefully they've grown some good sized lobes by now!  :Lol:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on August 21, 2021, 02:58:13 PM
Mike may have been busy in August watering and weeding the cams, hopefully they've grown some good sized lobes by now!  :Lol:

As long as they grew something!!!

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 21, 2021, 05:33:00 PM
Sorry guys, but I have been reliably informed that it is the wrong time of the year for growing and harvesting 'Cam on the Cob'. You will have to wait until I'm ready :ROFL:

However, some more gears have appeared. The vernier gear for the magneto and the crankshaft output gear. Now there are enough parts made to do a trial assemble of the whole camshaft drive train and test it to see if it will turn over and work.

First up, is the little 32 tooth drive gear for the single magneto. The gear blank is very thin, just 4mm thick. I was able to grip it with the very tips of the three jaw. I used two parallels to set the disk running true with the chuck back-plate (no photo). Both recessed faces and the central spigot hole were turned before the blanks were transferred to the mill for the 17 vernier holes to be drilled. The blanks were then mounted, in turn, onto the magneto hub so their OD to be turned true with the shaft.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0340small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0341small.JPG)


Here are the two gears, plus a spare. They are waiting their turn for a ride on the 'tzicc-tzicc-tzicc' machine, otherwise known as the gear cutter

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0342small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0344small.JPG)



Next came the crankshaft output gear, also 32 teeth. The crankshaft will be a built up assembly following the teachings of the Schilling method. The output gear fits tightly into the rear crankshaft bearing so it was essential get get that spigot to fit 'just so'. Again I used my 2.0 mm wide parting tool with a 1.mm radius insert to profile the remainder of the gear blank. These parting tools will cut sideways as well as plunge, but you must keep the depth of cut small, I use 0.010" DOC, when cutting sideways.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0345small.JPG)


I turned up a dummy bearing (it will be used again later, when the rest of the crankshaft parts are being machined) The dummy bearing is held in the collet chuck so that the output gear blank runs true, while the teeth are being cut. The gear blank is centralised by the dummy bearing and held in place by a central high tensile bolt, in the same way the whole built-up crankshaft will be help together.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0348small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0349small.JPG)


Here are a couple of 'glam' shots of the magneto drive gear and crankshaft output gear. You can see that all four cam gears. as well as the magneto gear. have a similar vernier adjustment arrangement.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0364small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0365small.JPG)


The camshaft drive train can now be fully assembled. The transfer idler gears, on the two bridges, have been adjusted to take out the backlash in the gear train. I have added a temporary drive shaft to the end of the crank for a driven test using my cordless drill.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0366small.JPG)


Will it work???? You will have to wait and see :Jester:

So stay tuned.

Gotta go. This year's Le Mans 24 hour race is underway and I dont want to miss too much.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on August 21, 2021, 06:30:21 PM
Oh that is splended!  I havea vernier as well on my cam drive but only at the camshaft itself.   I think I'll need some nifty fixture to put the cams themselves in time thoughI should be able to do this based on actual cylinder position.   Didnt know Lemans was this weekend...I'll need to check that out between the hurricane and the shop.

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on August 21, 2021, 07:14:36 PM
Maybe not 'Cam on the Cob' but how about Lobelia  :) 
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 21, 2021, 07:36:52 PM
Maybe not 'Cam on the Cob' but how about Lobelia  :)

Well, if 'Cam on the Cob' or Lobelia wont grow, I could always try red Campion flowers or even some Camellias  There may be others

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on August 21, 2021, 08:40:35 PM
Mike, is that an extended ctr you have in the drill chuck to add support to the arbor?

PS It's getting interesting now the rain has started just as it's getting dark :popcorn:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 21, 2021, 09:05:53 PM
Hello Jason,

An extended centre? Yes, in a way.

It's actually a piece of wood dowel pressed against and rubbing against the gear hub. The gear hub is only keyed to the shaft, at the moment it has no real means of resisting the cutting force. I am not yet ready to use the Loctite, so needs must.   :embarassed:

If it remains slightly damp at Le Mans, it will be interesting. If the rain becomes heavier, someone will slide off into the kitty-litter; then it's either a red flag (race stop) or a FCY and endless laps behind the safety car while they clear up the mess. I prefer it dry, fast and loud :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on August 21, 2021, 09:17:34 PM
Mike - did it take a lot of time to adjust all those Verniers or is easier than it looks to get it right ?

Per
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 21, 2021, 09:35:32 PM
Hello Per,

I dont know, because I have not tried it yet. As cnr6400 likes to point out, there are no lobes on the camshafts (yet) and also no magneto.  :headscratch: :headscratch:

I expect it to be a case of locking the crankshaft at #1 cylinder TDC and also locking the 4 camshafts with the zero marks in-line. Then it should be a case of finding the best position where the  holes in the gear wheel line up with the vernier hub screw holes. Mercedes only fitted 6 bolts evenly around  the 19 or 17 holes.

Time will tell if it's that simple.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 21, 2021, 09:43:33 PM
Hello Jason,

I've got Le Mans on the Eurosport channel with it's dumb commentary turned off. Instead, I am listening to the live Radiolemans.com English commentary over the internet. It's almost the same as old times with no risk of getting cold and wet.

I would recommend Radiolemans.com above any others.

Mike

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on August 22, 2021, 07:04:57 AM
Yes the Eurosport commentry is a bit more like a few blockes chatting away.

Though one thing they did mention is that the actual race has never been red flagged in all it's years. Though not sure how they could follow the safety cars if the track were completely blocked
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: kvom on August 22, 2021, 03:18:30 PM
Listening to a 24 hr automobile race on radio seems rather dull to me.  Of course, to me being there in person would be worse.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jo on August 22, 2021, 03:29:54 PM
Listening to a 24 hr automobile race on radio seems rather dull to me.  Of course, to me being there in person would be worse.

Its only one day a year. I did find the cars roaring by about 90 feet from my tent all night did not help my beauty sleep  :-\

Jo
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on August 22, 2021, 03:46:21 PM
Kvom...."Racing I life.....everything else is just ....waiting"
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 22, 2021, 03:47:04 PM
At the finish, it was Toyota 1st and second with a bitter disappointment for the leader of the LMP2 class; failed on the very last lap.

Well, I have attended 23 of the 89 editions of the Le Mans 24 hour race. Thats about 1/4 of all the races. You dont go to watch; you go to participate. "Racing Is life.....everything else is just ....waiting"

Now it's back to the dull world of model engineering.

I have never posted a video on the forum before. I am not even sure if it going to work this time. I am sure someone will let me know if it does not work.

Here are two short low definition video clips on Facebook. They are followed by a higher definition clip. You may need to click the link.....

https://fb.watch/7y6_-RTG2s/

https://fb.watch/7y70t752rZ/

https://fb.watch/7y71NHZAfo/

If you enjoyed this post, let me know

Mike



Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: cnr6400 on August 22, 2021, 03:50:29 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on August 22, 2021, 04:29:20 PM
All showing up fine :)
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jo on August 22, 2021, 04:48:16 PM
All I get is three lines of internet addresses. When I click on one Farcebook forces me to accept cookies or it won't let me see them. Saw one video before I decontaminated my computer of the Farcebook spying cookies.

Inserting a Youtube link in your posts has the advantage of it not contaminating other people's computers with undesirable cookies.

Jo
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on August 22, 2021, 05:04:53 PM
When I said showing up fine I meant the videos played as soon as I clicked the links. I do visit a few FB groups so it was not a problem for me.

Jo does Youtube not use various trackers too, seems it suggests videos based on the subjects I have looked at previously.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jo on August 22, 2021, 05:10:06 PM
Jo does Youtube not use various trackers too, seems it suggests videos based on the subjects I have looked at previously.

If you visit the Youtube site like the Farcebook site you get trackers, unless you have blockers in place. I have them for Youtube but not Farcebook so I just get a random set of   :headscratch: videos offered up.

Jo
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 22, 2021, 05:14:34 PM
All I get is three lines of internet addresses. When I click on one Farcebook forces me to accept cookies or it won't let me see them. Saw one video before I decontaminated my computer of the Farcebook spying cookies.

Inserting a Youtube link in your posts has the advantage of it not contaminating other people's computers with undesirable cookies.

Jo

Jo,

Thanks for the warning about Facebook and undesirable cookies. I wont do it again.

I did try to put the videos on Youtube but for some reason they would not upload. It complained about my browser being out of date. :killcomputer:

Best to stick with still photos on Lister coppermine.

Mike

PS do you think I should take down, delete,  the Facebook links?

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jo on August 22, 2021, 05:40:04 PM

PS do you think I should take down, delete,  the Facebook links?


If people wish to follow the links and are happy with the cookies they will see the videos. Personally I do not like being tracked/used by the big Web companies. I can never understand how they make so much money through tracking and showing you adverts  :headscratch: I never knew so much money is wasted on advertising but looking at those companies profits it must be  :noidea:

Jo
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on August 22, 2021, 06:14:00 PM
I'd say leave them up. As the whole url is clearly visible anyone clicking on them will know where they are going to and can make their own choice. If it simply said Link, Link, Link then maybe a note to say where they are hosted would be welcome by some but hovering the mouse over the "link" would show the url anyway.

Better to have the videos and get a bit of feedback than nothing at all.

As Youtube and the like are going to offer me other suggested videos to watch I'm happy for them to be of something I'm interested in than something I'm not
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on August 22, 2021, 06:16:03 PM
I would agree with Jason....

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jo on August 22, 2021, 06:56:16 PM
As Youtube and the like are going to offer me other suggested videos to watch I'm happy for them to be of something I'm interested in than something I'm not

That is only one type of cookie. The more concerning ones report on website addresses visited and the key strokes entered on those pages :cussing: Microsoft password manager's autocomplete and OTPs are mechanisms that tries to protect from this type of  :censored: cookie.

Jo
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Laurentic on August 22, 2021, 08:00:52 PM
I enjoyed the vids Mike, weird how on the last one, the gears were going round but the teeth didn't seem to much.  Remember similar to that from when I was a kid and the cowboy films where all the coach wheels seemed to be going backwards.  But loverly picture of some excellent engineering, thanks for that Mike. 

Chris
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on August 22, 2021, 08:39:25 PM
At the finish, it was Toyota 1st and second with a bitter disappointment for the leader of the LMP2 class; failed on the very last lap.

Well, I have attended 23 of the 89 editions of the Le Mans 24 hour race. Thats about 1/4 of all the races. You dont go to watch; you go to participate. "Racing I life.....everything else is just ....waiting"

Now it's back to the dull world of model engineering.

I have never posted a video on the forum before. I am not even sure if it going to work this time. I am sure someone will let me know if it does not work.

Here are two short low definition video clips on Facebook. They are followed by a higher definition clip. You may need to click the like.....

https://fb.watch/7y6_-RTG2s/

https://fb.watch/7y70t752rZ/

https://fb.watch/7y71NHZAfo/

If you enjoyed this post, let me know

Mike

I think this post was freakin awesome!!!!!     :praise2: :praise2: :praise2: :praise2:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on August 22, 2021, 10:08:16 PM
Interesting to see the movement - so to speak  :ThumbsUp:

It's a bit noisy - but hard to tell if that is the camera making worse (louder), lack of lubrication or something completely different ....  :thinking:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on August 23, 2021, 06:57:35 AM
Probably the cordless drill as that's nearest the camera.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Steamer5 on August 23, 2021, 08:50:48 AM
Hi Mike,
 Thankyou so much for the videos!
The engine is absolutely fantastic!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 23, 2021, 01:12:20 PM
Interesting to see the movement - so to speak  :ThumbsUp:

It's a bit noisy - but hard to tell if that is the camera making worse (louder), lack of lubrication or something completely different ....  :thinking:

Hello Per,

you can always turn your volume down to match the sound level as the real gear train. This is a model of a racing engine which uses straight cut gears which will always make more noise than the belt drive you may find on a luxury limo. There are 9 freshly cut gears and 470 gear teeth, all rotating in perfect harmony without any lubrication. I am pleased they rotate at all without fighting among themselves. Things can only improve as they bed in, when the enclosed gear case is added, together with the lubrication system.

It's one step at a time.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 23, 2021, 01:14:30 PM
Thanks guys for calling in, your response is always very welcome. For a moment, I feared this build log would degenerate into a long discussion about prejudices against various social media platforms.

As you all know, creating a build log, or a progress report, can take a fair amount of effort to assemble, re-size and upload photos and to compose adequate text to describe what going on. This applies to everyone who takes the time out to post on the forum.

I enjoy sharing what I do, but sharing needs be a two way thing. Readers also need to do their 'share' by responding adequately to any new post or build log update. This is restricted to MEM members only. So please keep responding, take the time to engage with the author of any post, show your appreciation and ask questions if you can. It all adds to the 'shared' experience, which makes the MEM forum the great place it is.

Thanks again

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 23, 2021, 03:20:53 PM

I used an inexpensive Chinese involute cutter with brush-on water based coolant/ lube. I was a little concerned for the durability of these inexpensive Chinese involute cutters as I planned to cut at least 350 teeth in EN8, which is not the friendliest of steels to machine. However the cutter did a splendid job.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0261small.JPG)

Mike

You may be interested to hear about the durability of the inexpensive Chinese involute gear cutters which are currently flooding the market. I have now cut over 400 teeth with one individual cutter in EN8 steel, which is not the friendliest of steels to machine. I can now see wear marks on both sides of each of the cutter's teeth. That cutter is no longer as sharp and keen as it once was. I estimate the wear to be about 0.001" (0.025 mm) off either side as I need to advance the depth of cut by an additional 0.005" to maintain the correct tooth contact at the PCD. If I have more MOD 0.8 gears to cut of this tooth count, I will willingly invest in a single replacement involute cutter from the same source.

Alternatively, I could give each flute of the cutter a heavy dressing on a tool cutter grinder (if I had one)

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on August 23, 2021, 03:33:15 PM
Thanks for the feedback Mike, both on the cutter and the post.    It is much appreciated!

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jo on August 23, 2021, 04:27:51 PM

Alternatively, I could give each flute of the cutter a heavy dressing on a tool cutter grinder (if I had one)


You know someone with one  ::)

Jo
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 23, 2021, 04:49:43 PM

Alternatively, I could give each flute of the cutter a heavy dressing on a tool cutter grinder (if I had one)


You know someone with one  ::)

Jo

No, do you?

Eric had one the size of a dish washer, he was trying to sell me.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on August 23, 2021, 05:06:27 PM
It would be interesting to see if you could mount it horizontally on the CNC mill and use a carbide cutter to take an equal skim off each cutting face, if you had a high speed spindle then a small grinding bit may do.

I did find the ones I bought wore quicker than say the mid priced RDG ones but at that price can almost be regarded as disposable.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 23, 2021, 05:21:12 PM
Hello Jason,

I had thoughts about mounting the involute cutter on the gear cutting (4th axis) rig to index it, touching up the flutes with a diamond disc mounted on the high speed Dremel. It might work if I was pushed.

My MOD 0.8 involute cutters came from Aliexpress in China, so I have no idea of the actual manufacturer or whether I would get the same if I reordered.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jo on August 23, 2021, 06:54:11 PM

Alternatively, I could give each flute of the cutter a heavy dressing on a tool cutter grinder (if I had one)


You know someone with one  ::)

Jo

No, do you?

Eric had one the size of a dish washer, he was trying to sell me.

Mike


He sold that, he now has a Clarkson, I think it is a Mk 2. I prefer my Union  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Johnmcc69 on August 23, 2021, 07:13:22 PM
Hello Mike, I really appreciate the time you & others put into posting your builds & freely sharing your information (I wish I had more time to read all the fantastic builds going on).

 Those Designers back then must have been an incredible bunch, truly spectacular engineering. I wonder how big the engineering team was that developed just that racing engine? Not to mention the body, drive train, & suspension teams...

 Keep these great posts coming!

 John
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 23, 2021, 07:24:59 PM

Alternatively, I could give each flute of the cutter a heavy dressing on a tool cutter grinder (if I had one)


You know someone with one  ::)

Jo

Oh dear, and I thought that was a question. You seem to have one of everything in your workshop. Hopefully, when the infection rates drop, we could see if it can do the job

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 23, 2021, 07:35:22 PM
Hello Mike, I really appreciate the time you & others put into posting your builds & freely sharing your information (I wish I had more time to read all the fantastic builds going on).

 Those Designers back then must have been an incredible bunch, truly spectacular engineering. I wonder how big the engineering team was that developed just that racing engine? Not to mention the body, drive train, & suspension teams...

 Keep these great posts coming!

 John

John, I will do, as long as people are prepared to make the effort to show they are interested.

Mercedes Benz, way back then, as also today; seem to have an unlimited budget and an infinite number of engineers to design and build race cars. They say the W165 took only 8 months from start to winners trophy. Some going!!!

Mike.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on August 23, 2021, 10:10:03 PM
Sorry if I sounded critical - it was more thinking out loud and you are the one that heard it for real (so to speak). As I have worked with cameras + recording equipment - I do know that what you end up with on the medium isn't always how it was perceived by your own senses at the time .... Just think about how scratched a small surface, usually looks on a picture taken by a camera ....

I do understand you priorities, of first making sure it all rund evenly and with minimum friction .... and it's probably just me - but I have come to expect results very close to absolute perfection from you (and some others here) - not that mistakes do not occur .... (for the rest of us - each to his or hers level of acceptance).
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on August 24, 2021, 01:22:15 PM
I finally got to look at your gears in motion, Splendid  :praise2:  :praise2:  :wine1:

Gear cutting like CNC is still on my to do list  :thinking: I suppose all the cables would make it harder to shake the machines over the bin to clean them  ::)
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: kvom on August 24, 2021, 01:51:02 PM
The 'duck duck go' add on to browsers will eliminate the FB trackers.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: RReid on August 24, 2021, 04:36:06 PM
I greatly enjoyed seeing that gear train in action. I've been truly fascinated by the scope and the execution of this project, and have read back through most of the thread. While I prefer "spinning handwheels" myself, I've done just enough CNC coding (by hand and a little by CAM) and machining in my working past to appreciate the the thought and effort involved. Fantastic work you're doing, Mike!
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on September 06, 2021, 10:10:44 PM
So what was I up to when I made that mistake which damaged the mill bed? I was working on the details of camshaft drive gearbox casing.

The original gear casing was a one piece light alloy casting, another testament to the outstanding skills of the MB foundry men. I chose to make the casing in two halves. The front part carries the idler gears, while the rear half is purely cosmetic. However, as a whole,  it's a very prominent feature and both halves of the casing needs to be completed as a single item, so as to look like the original casting.

Walls for the front half of the casing were machined to be 6.5 mm high, and pads for mounting the idler gears bridges were incorporated, having a height of 5.5 mm. The wall pieces and the bridge pads were machined from 8.0 mm thick 6082 alloy plate.

Here you can see a pair of right hand walls, part way though the machining process. The plate has been reduced to 6.5mm thickness and one has been contour profiled and is almost finished. I used a trochoidal milling strategy to machine a narrow slot ( 120% tool diameter) with a feed of 8% tool diameter with a spindle speed of approx 5000 RPM. Trochoidal milling significantly reduced the cutting forces while allowing the full depth to be cut in one pass. The chips certainly fly. Note the small bridges which are programmed to prevent the component from breaking free. These bridges are hand filed away later.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0389small.JPG)



Here I am attempting to machine six (three pairs) of components in one set-up. The first opp creates the 6.5 mm circular pads for the rear cover and the 5.5 high odd shaped pads  for the idler gear bridges. Other parts have been reduced to 2.5 mm high were necessary. All the mounting holes were drilled at this early stage.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0396small.JPG)


Trochoidal milling was again used to separate the individual pieces from the stock. Many of the holding bridges on a previous part, were machined away as the next part was profiled. The stock plate is supported on a 8 mm sacrificial perspex plate.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0399small.JPG)


The next two photos show a repeat of the above process for two more components.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0400small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0401small.JPG)



After some light cleaning up, the various wall and idler gear pads were screwed and glued to the gear case front plate. They were then screw tapped for the various mounting holes.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0406small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0407small.JPG)

I will wait until the rear cover has been made and attached before I attempt to radius and smooth the outer edges. This will be done as if it were a single (cast) item.

Stay tuned.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on September 06, 2021, 10:16:08 PM
Nicely done Mike!     That would have truly been a difficult part to cast for sure.   I'll be stealing that idea where needed on the 917!!


Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: petertha on September 07, 2021, 02:55:10 AM
Nice, Mike. What was the 'glue' in this particular application?
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on September 07, 2021, 04:47:32 PM
Nice, Mike. What was the 'glue' in this particular application?

Hello perertha,

The parts are all held in place by screws and pins. The JB Weld epoxy is little more than a grout to seal the edges of the enclosure. Even so, the joint faces were all roughly abraded and the whole assembly was heat cured to obtain the maximum strength and adhesion.

Today, I cleaned up both front cam drive covers and attached the idler gears and bridges. You should be able to see the raised pads which act as the bridge standoffs. It is still possible to move the bridges and idler gears around by approximately +/- 1.0 mm to ensure a perfect gear mesh.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0410small.JPG)


Notice how the inside faces are curved to follow the outline and make clearance for the gears. There ain't much spare space inside that box.  :facepalm:

Stay tuned, the rear cover is next.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on September 07, 2021, 05:26:41 PM
Mike, was the glued & screwed method used as milling the whole thing from solid was outside the mill's capacity? Suspect it also saved in both machining time and turning costly aluminium into swarf.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on September 07, 2021, 06:19:12 PM
Hello Jason,

In retrospect, I could have machined it all from the solid. The cam gear case is a lot bigger then the x and Y travel of my mill, but I have become used to moving big stuff around on the table and re-establishing the datum to get to those bits I could not reach in the first set-up. The gear case would have needed three set-ups; left side, right side and crankshaft centre. I am going to have to face that for the rear cover.

However, I was not entirely sure the gear bridges would work. OK for posh watches, but into the unknown for a model engine. The 3 mm thick front plate was a bit of an experiment, which worked well as you saw in the video clip. It then seemed logical to add the side walls and bridge mounting pads by the glue and screw method. I still have the 'hog it out of solid' option, if I ever feel uncomfortable with what I have made so far.

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on September 07, 2021, 10:48:19 PM
While I can see how you somewhat easy can move a point and set it as the new Zero or Offset - how do you ensure that at least one of the axises are totally parallel to the previous setup ?

Do you mount it on a sacrificial plate and mill one side of this too ?

Per
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on September 07, 2021, 11:20:30 PM
Hello Per,

Yes, that's more or less how I do it.

Whenever I can, I bolt a 6 x 6 mm square strip near the bottom edge of the oversize plate. The plate and strip slide parallel along the bottom edge of the mill table which controls the plate's position in the Y axis. I can then pick the new x axis position off scribed lines. That way, only the X axis needs to be re-zero'd.

It gets a bit more tricky if I need to move the oversize plate in the Y direction as well. I often have to rotate the plate through 180* to let it overhang the front of the mill table, otherwise it would hit the vertical column

Some of the machined features must cross the overlap.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on September 08, 2021, 02:07:51 AM
Nice, Mike. What was the 'glue' in this particular application?

Hello perertha,

The parts are all held in place by screws and pins. The JB Weld epoxy is little more than a grout to seal the edges of the enclosure. Even so, the joint faces were all roughly abraded and the whole assembly was heat cured to obtain the maximum strength and adhesion.

Today, I cleaned up both front cam drive covers and attached the idler gears and bridges. You should be able to see the raised pads which act as the bridge standoffs. It is still possible to move the bridges and idler gears around by approximately +/- 1.0 mm to ensure a perfect gear mesh.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0410small.JPG)


Notice how the inside faces are curved to follow the outline and make clearance for the gears. There ain't much spare space inside that box.  :facepalm:

Stay tuned, the rear cover is next.

Mike

Oh Mike...that is just delicious!      Nicely done my friend.   What is the work envelope for your mill?

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on September 10, 2021, 06:32:06 PM
Please Note

The discussion regarding end stops, limit switches and 'home' switches has been moved from here to a new thread titled "Limit stops on CNC

This is an important subject and definitely one that needs it's own topic which members can refer to, read and perhaps contribute too.

Different machinists have conflicting views on the use of limit switches and stops, the discussion will examine the pros and cons and any possible consequences.

For continuity, I repeat my last reply to Steamer.

Hello Dave

My much modified Emco VMC, has a table movement of 200 x 100. I do not use limit switches, so I impose a soft limit of 190 x 90 instead. I see no sense in tap dancing on the limit switches or end stops. If you run into either, the job cannot be completed and is probably ruined. 190 x 90 is more than enough movement for most of the parts I need to make.

The cam gear case cover is an exception, it measures approx 240 x 160. Being "T"  shaped I will be able to get away with three set-ups.

Mike

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Rick Doane on September 11, 2021, 12:53:28 AM
Hello Mike:

Thank you for the explanation on how you are able to set the lash on all the gears.  I have gone back in this thread to see if I missed something but could not find it.  However, I do have a question on how you do set this for all the gears.  With the 1 mm free play, do you set the lash the same or does that change for each position?  Eyeball, measurement, or feel?  Please forgive my ignorance as I have not performed this in such a high performance engine.  This is a fantastic build and I really like following along.

Regards....Rick
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on September 11, 2021, 12:31:07 PM
Hello Rick,

I always enjoy trying to answer questions, and this one is a goodie. :ThumbsUp:

Remember the W165 design is how they used to do things 85 years ago. Today's precision timing belts are far more accurate and almost silent, Heck, they can even change the cam phasing on the move, to re-map the valve events for different parts of the rev range.

Every gear pair must have a small amount of clearance to run smoothly and these small amounts of clearance all add up. If you look at the photo below, you can see the left hand exhaust cam shaft drive involves 6 separate gears, the right hand exhaust cam shaft is a little better with only 5 gears involved.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0411small.JPG)



They say " If the gears dont rattle a bit, you are going to knock out the bearings". So how am I to minimise the backlash in the gear train? As you know. I altered the original design by mounting the idler gears on adjustable bridges. This, I hoped, would provide enough freedom of movement (+/- 1 mm) to minimise the inevitable backlash.

To adjust the cam shaft gear train, I start at the camshafts and work back to the crankshaft.

Each of the camshafts is driven by a 64 tooth gear. The camshafts (cam boxes) sit on top of the cylinder blocks at an angle of 56*. The backlash between the pairs of gears can be adjusted by changing the thickness of the gasket under the cambox to 'shim' the gear centres, so they spin freely with the minimum of backlash.

Next I mount the single idler gear (to the left of centre). This gear is pushed up snug between the left hand inlet cam gear and the 32 tooth magneto drive gear, so that all four gears turn freely with minimum backlash.

Next comes the double idler gear pair. The upper idler gear is pushed up snug against the single idler and the right hand inlet cam gear. At the same time the lower idler gear is pressed sideways snug against the 32 tooth crankshaft gear. Again the objective is to get all 9 gears turning freely with minimum backlash.

The whole gear train is sensitive to minor manufacturing errors, so I was pleased to have spare gear wheels to chose from. One engine turns over slightly smoother than the other, but I expect some running in will cure that one as well.

The camshafts and the magneto can only be positioned to an accuracy of one tooth (that's 5.6 degrees), so each of these gears has vernier adjustment, which allow angular adjustments of each camshaft to 1/ 19 part of a whole tooth. The magneto is only to 1/17 part of a tooth.

If you want it simple. get a Ford.

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Craig DeShong on September 11, 2021, 02:08:08 PM
Though it isn’t a ‘round engine’, it sure is impressive!  Even is it doesn’t run, which I’m sure it will, you could still hang it on the wall because it certainly qualifies as ‘fine art’.  Gorgeous work Mike.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: kvom on September 11, 2021, 02:35:03 PM
Since in operation each gear turns only in one direction, I wouldn't think backlash itself is the issue.  Uneven wear might be of more importance.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on September 11, 2021, 03:43:46 PM
maybe "running clearance" would be a better word than backlash. Though backlash is the term often used when talking clearance between gears whatever their use.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on September 11, 2021, 04:20:38 PM
Interesting   :thinking:

If you look at it from a camshaft gear's point of view; there will be four load reversals per revolution because of the four cam events and the valve springs. I am pretty sure the four cam gears will be chattering between themselves about backlash.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on September 11, 2021, 04:43:59 PM
Interesting   :thinking:

If you look at it from a camshaft gear's point of view; there will be four load reversals per revolution because of the four cam events and the valve springs. I am pretty sure the four cam gears will be chattering between themselves about backlash.

Mike

quite right Mike,,,,then add in the cam shaft rotational inertia, torque twist, and various harmonics....and my brain starts to hurt......
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Rick Doane on September 12, 2021, 03:50:23 AM
Interesting   :thinking:

If you look at it from a camshaft gear's point of view; there will be four load reversals per revolution because of the four cam events and the valve springs. I am pretty sure the four cam gears will be chattering between themselves about backlash.

Mike

Hmmmm......does that include acceleration and deceleration?   :smokin2: 
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on September 12, 2021, 11:09:30 AM
Hello Rick,

During acceleration and deceleration (overrun), the car's differential and transmission gearbox will definitely see full load reversals. I am not sure this would apply to the camshaft drive gears. I think the camshaft drive chain loads will remain dominated by the valve gear loads and fluctuations, just faster or slower.

Mike

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on September 12, 2021, 01:15:10 PM
Interesting   :thinking:

If you look at it from a camshaft gear's point of view; there will be four load reversals per revolution because of the four cam events and the valve springs. I am pretty sure the four cam gears will be chattering between themselves about backlash.

Mike

I wonder how much that would be as when one valve is coming up onto the cam, another will be coming off so they may well cancel each other out to some extent, the more so as the number of cam lobes goes up. eg would be more noticable on a single cylinder than a straight 6. Single cam designs would also cancel out more than twin cams as there will be more lobes on a single shaft.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Charles Lamont on September 12, 2021, 01:34:48 PM
Keith Duckworth had big problems with torsional vibration in the Cosworth DFV valve train. It came from the crankshaft, and was solved with his now famous quill drive hub.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on September 12, 2021, 01:37:42 PM
Interesting   :thinking:

If you look at it from a camshaft gear's point of view; there will be four load reversals per revolution because of the four cam events and the valve springs. I am pretty sure the four cam gears will be chattering between themselves about backlash.

Mike

I wonder how much that would be as when one valve is coming up onto the cam, another will be coming off so they may well cancel each other out to some extent, the more so as the number of cam lobes goes up. eg would be more noticable on a single cylinder than a straight 6. Single cam designs would also cancel out more than twin cams as there will be more lobes on a single shaft.

Well, the valve events for each cam are by no means equi-spaced

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/CAM1.jpg)

So Jason, you decide how much they will cancel out, if at all.

I would expect the gears to chatter. Much as Charles has just pointed out in the DFV valve train

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0412small.JPG)

Cosworth DFV cam gear train courtesy of JonC

Mike

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on September 12, 2021, 02:22:38 PM
Those camshaft drive housings lock excellent  :praise2:  :praise2: How are you going to set the clearances? I tend to use a sheet of thin paper between the teeth to ensure that I have some clearance.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on September 12, 2021, 05:38:41 PM
............: How are you going to set the clearances? I tend to use a sheet of thin paper between the teeth to ensure that I have some clearance.

Thanks Roger that sounds like a good a way to set the clearance as any. You can get note paper in various thicknesses (weights). I will try the thinnest available for a start.

MIke
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Charles Lamont on September 12, 2021, 05:58:20 PM
Cigarette paper.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on September 12, 2021, 06:10:17 PM
Thanks Charles

Rizla paper it is.

Now do I choose Rizla red, blue or green  :smokin2: :smokin2: :smokin2:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on September 12, 2021, 06:56:54 PM
I've used strips cut from thin plastic bags to set small gear, 80gsm copy paper is usual for the larger lathe change gears.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on September 20, 2021, 08:12:32 PM
Camshaft Drive Gearbox Rear Cover.

I took a few days out of the workshop to gather my thoughts before starting on the next part, which is to be the Rear Cover for the Camshaft Drive Gearbox.This is going to be an interesting exercise as I would like to machine the Rear Cover in one piece. The problem is, the Rear Cover is much bigger than the available machining envelope of my Emco mill. I am forced to do the machining in several stages, moving the work around the mill table for each stage. I will need to take great care with the ever changing, ever moving, 0,0,0 datum with each set-up. I expect to make six different set-up and probably several cock-ups along the way..

The machining would require three set-up to machine the internal features, followed by another three for the external shape. It became a game of deciding the machining order, so as not to machine away the datum point or the means of clamping the Rear Cover too soon.

After giving the mill a spring clean and emptying the swarf from the enclosure, I made a start by backing the mill into the top left corner of it's travel, to give the maximum travel in the x and Y directions. I fitted a physical work stop and fence to the table, which should help me re-position the work with reasonable accuracy. This big slab of 10 mm thick 6082 aluminium alloy squarely clamped  onto the bed and pressed against the end stops. The top left corner of the work, marked Datum 0,0,  will need to be accurately positioned against these stops for four of the proposed, six set-ups.  You can get on idea how much oversize the Rear Cover is, from the overhang.  :facepalm:

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0413small.JPG)


First set-up.

I used the Estlecam constant width of cut, 'peel', toolpath strategy, to rough out most of the inside of the top right part of the Rear Cover. The depth of this pocket was 3.5 mm. The area machined was limited by the available travel of my small Emco mill.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0415small.JPG)


I did an extra rectangular finishing pass to leave a nice flat surface.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0416small.JPG)


A 7.0 mm diameter ball cutter was used to put a smooth radius the inside walls and around the three screw bosses.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0417small.JPG)


Second set-up.

The work was then turned through 90* so that the left side could be pocketed in a similar manner to the first set-up. The mills X axis was zeroed on the re-positioned  Datum corner. The Y axis was still firmly pressed against the fence (out of sight in the photo)

Here you can see the results of the first two set-ups. The top half of the Rear Cover has been pocketed, the edges and screw bossed have been machined with a smooth radius, The outer edges have been profiled and the various holes drilled. The mill's enclosure is already beginning to fill with chips.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0420small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0423small.JPG)

One more set-up, to machine the lower part, will completed the inside of the Rear cover.

So far, so good. :shrug:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: RReid on September 20, 2021, 08:19:29 PM
Are you sure you're not really creating a secret sea-floor map of the English Channel? Fantastic work! :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Art K on September 21, 2021, 12:04:45 AM
Mike,
Good to see the progress you're making. Also how you are working within the limitations of your machine. Keep up the great work!
Art
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Dave Otto on September 21, 2021, 12:19:02 AM
Nice work Mike!
Kudos for doing the extra finishing passes, the floor finish from the adaptive type tool paths look pretty crappy.

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on September 21, 2021, 06:22:43 PM
Hello Dave,

You are quite right, the 'peel' or adaptive toolpaths are intended for roughing away large mounts of material as quickly as possible. Although the floor level is quite flat, the visual appearance is not too nice. I ran a rectangular toolpath over the adaptive to improve it's visual appearance. I dropped the Z zero by 0.001" .

Here you see both covers have been completed to stage two. The cabinet is quickly filling with needle like chips. The adaptive toolpath chips are quite distinctive.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0425small.JPG)



One plate has been set up for the third machining stage. I have re-positioned  X and Y to X -3.5" Y -3.5" and reset the two axes to zero. This will be the new 'part home' for the third machining stage. The part has been located with a 3.0 mm pin, positioned in the centre screw boss and the datum side set at exactly 45 degrees to the bed using a protractor

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0426small.JPG)



That should be me, all set for the third machining stage

Stay tuned

Mike

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: crueby on September 21, 2021, 06:28:34 PM
Looking great - I can't imagine all the setups that would be needed for non-CNC. Do-able, but a whole lot slower!

 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Kim on September 21, 2021, 06:35:15 PM
That's a lot of work!  Looking forward to seeing the outcome of the next steps!  :popcorn:

Kim
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on September 22, 2021, 12:11:35 AM
Beginning to look like the part is emerging!!!   some parts just put up a fight...but you're winning!

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Johnmcc69 on September 25, 2021, 12:17:59 AM
Well planned set ups & machining Mike!
 Nice work!
  :ThumbsUp:
 John
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: fumopuc on September 25, 2021, 10:28:08 AM
Hi Mike, still following quietly along every new chip drooping down.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on September 25, 2021, 12:56:29 PM
Thank you all for calling in. Your support is always very welcome.

I have now completed the machining for the first three stages. The internal details of the rear Gear Case have now been completed.

I still have five fingers on each hand. I still have a datum corner, a datum edge and places to clamp the work for the next steps. I have not bumped into any of the clamps (so far) and the cabinet is filling with more and more chips.

The first photo shows the first stage of pocketing out the crankcase area. The big central hole is for the rear shaft seal housing. The strange feature in the middle of the hole is an historic feature on the sacrificial mounting plate

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0427small.JPG)



Here the outside edges have been machined away, still leaving material for the work clamps for later stages

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0429small.JPG)


The rear gear cover is starting to become recognisable. Note two of the screw bossed have been reduced in height to make clearance for the gear bridges.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0431small.JPG)


Here you can see the inside of the front and rear halves of the gear case. It's frustrating that I cannot yet close the two halves to see how well they fit together. The holes that accept the three bosses protruding from the bridges are not due to be machined until the final two set-ups.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0432small.JPG)


As Dave said, these parts are putting up a good fight; but I'm still winning. :ROFL:

Stay tuned (it still could turn into a disaster movie) :killcomputer:

Mike

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on September 25, 2021, 02:16:03 PM
"......
As Dave said, these parts are putting up a good fight; but i'm still winning. :ROFL:

Stay tuned (it still could turn into a disaster movie) :killcomputer:

Mike...."

Nah......those parts wouldn't dare!!!

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: RReid on September 25, 2021, 03:02:11 PM
Code: [Select]
Stay tuned (it still could turn into a disaster movie) :killcomputer:

Mike...."

Nah......those parts wouldn't dare!!!

I agree with Dave, but I know how you feel. If it was me, I'd be on the edge of my seat the whole time, except I do all my machining standing up!
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Craig DeShong on September 26, 2021, 12:44:00 AM
... The cabinet is quickly filling with needle like chips….

And they get down inside your shoes and cause a certain amount off hopping around till you stop and dislodge them.  They also get carried into the house where the wiffie finds them with her bare feet. :rant:

Always a pleasure to see the next installment of this build Mike.  You never disappoint.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Hugh Currin on September 26, 2021, 05:44:52 AM
Mike: That is an intriguing part. It's starting to make sense but I still don't see how it all fits together. Does this cover bolt onto the gear carriers? Could they have used this cover to replace some of the carriers, or is access needed to the complete train for adjustment? I forget, is there adjustment for gear spacing? An amazing build coming along very well. Thanks.

Craig: After several hours of machining, being elbow deep in chips you take a break. I mean an unimaginable number of chips, everywhere. You clean off your clothes and shoes as well as possible, as always. Wash your hands and head into the house meeting your wife in the kitchen. She's holding a single chip and says "look what I found" in a mildly stern voice. Do you 1) say it's amazing you only found one 'cuz there's a million in the shop, 2) explain that the chip she's holding is aluminium which is good 'cuz the steel one's are much worse, 3) accept the chip and offer to reunite it with it's breathern, or 4) simply apologize. I've always gone with #4. Has anyone tried 1,2 or 3?

They also get carried into the house where the wiffie finds them with her bare feet. :rant:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Kim on September 26, 2021, 06:15:21 AM
Has anyone tried 1,2 or 3?
Probably nobody who's still married!  :LittleDevil:
Kim
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on September 26, 2021, 09:07:51 AM
Hugh, Kim, Craig.

Regarding chips entering the household. I have found a comprimise. I have a machine shop, the wife has a sewing room. She no longer complains about chips on the kitchen floor and I no longer complain when I have to stip down the vacuum cleaner to remove the cotton wound round the sweeper drum. Thats worked for 53 years so far.

Regarding the gear case design. The original engine had a single piece, closed aluminium box casing, about 700 mm by 460 mm, The spindes for the idler gears passed through the casting from the rear. There does not appear to be any means to adjust the spindle position to adjust the gear mesh. They must have achieved it somehow, but those who knew are no longer with us.

I have no aluminium casting facilities, so I decided to machine the gear case in two halves and mount the idler gears on bridges to facilitate gear mesh adjustment. The bridges are attached to the front half of the gear case, the rear half is mostly cosmetic, including dummy raised bearing bosses (yet to be machined). The rear gear case half, bolts to the front with M 2.5 screws through the raised pads and the six bolts around the crankcase area.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0432small.JPG)


The gear case will hopefully look similar to this, you can see the external idler gear bearing bosses. The photo is of different Mercedes engine. I believe this to be an early W154 V12 engine, I do not have any photos of the W165 gearcase.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/Silver_Arrow_Gala_in_the_Louwman_Museum_W125__V12small.JPG)

Stay tuned

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: john mills on September 26, 2021, 09:35:30 AM
its fascinating to see these parts take shape i would wonder if they positioned the spindles then they could adjust the size of the gears if the clearance was not right but they probably got the sizes right.
john
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on September 26, 2021, 03:54:32 PM
Hello John,

The cam shafts sit on top of a fabricated steel cylinder block, so the exact positions of the cam centres could also be variable, which adds to the need for backlash adjustment

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/15591328_1368411676536638_1899407223159042440_osmall.JPG)

MB recieved huge subsidies from their Government and added their own money from profits from the re-armement program. They were not short of money, facilities or workers. Each engine was hand crafted, I believe each gear would have been individually 'made to measure', each with a slight diameter variation. They could have fitted test discs of different diameters, to determin the exact PCD required for each gear, to minimise backlash.

It's all a guess, the guys who know, are no longer with us.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on September 26, 2021, 04:47:26 PM
Splendid machining as ever  :praise2:  :praise2:  :wine1:

The original fabricated cylinder block looks to have been a challenge   ::)  :thinking:  :headscratch:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: RReid on September 27, 2021, 04:36:58 PM
I was wondering if something like an eccentric spindle, turning inside a rotatable eccentric sleeve, could be used to adjust the lash in both x and y directions. Complicated, yes, and tricky to adjust, but as you've said, those things would be irrelevant to those guys!
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on September 27, 2021, 05:38:42 PM
Hello Ron,

Here is the only cross section I have of the full size gear train .

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/GEARS2small.JPG)

You can see the hollow idler gear spindle in the centre and again at the lower centre of the image. The spindle passes through the gear case and is secured, at the rear face, by four small screws. It's position appeares to be fixed. I can see no means of positional adjustment.

An eccentric spindle would work OK to adjust the backlash between two gears. However, in the W165 gear train, each idler is in contact with more than one other gear, so an eccentric sleeve would not have worked. I believe a 'made to measure' gear was the way that MB did it. I chose to mount the model's idler gears on adjustable bridges, but I am still trying to create the same extrenal appearance as the original.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: RReid on September 27, 2021, 08:39:15 PM
Thank you for your reply, Mike, and the drawing image. It just gives me that much more respect for what you are accomplishing.

Quote
An excentric spindle would work OK to adjust the backlash between two gears. However, in the W165 gear trian, each idler is in contact with more than one other gear, so an excentric sleeve would not have worked.
I agree with that. I'm afraid I didn't describe my idea very well. The eccentric spindle would rotate within a sleeve with an eccentric bore. That sleeve would also be free to rotate within its gear case bore. If I'm correct that would seem, in principle anyway, to allow the idler gear lash to be adjusted for both driven gears by adjusting the two eccentric axes independently. Of course, means to lock both the sleeve and the spindle would have to be provided, plus means to rotate each with some precision.

I don't question for a second that your idea of how MB accomplished the job is the correct one, I was just imagining/day-dreaming a possible alternate way. :cheers:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on September 27, 2021, 10:30:11 PM
Thank you for your reply, Mike, and the drawing image. It just gives me that much more respect for what you are accomplishing.

Quote
An excentric spindle would work OK to adjust the backlash between two gears. However, in the W165 gear trian, each idler is in contact with more than one other gear, so an excentric sleeve would not have worked.
I agree with that. I'm afraid I didn't describe my idea very well. The eccentric spindle would rotate within a sleeve with an eccentric bore. That sleeve would also be free to rotate within its gear case bore. If I'm correct that would seem, in principle anyway, to allow the idler gear lash to be adjusted for both driven gears by adjusting the two eccentric axes independently. Of course, means to lock both the sleeve and the spindle would have to be provided, plus means to rotate each with some precision.

I don't question for a second that your idea of how MB accomplished the job is the correct one, I was just imagining/day-dreaming a possible alternate way. :cheers:

Hello Ron,

Maybe that's yet another way to adjust the backlash. Good thinking/ day-dreaming :ThumbsUp:

Engineering is all about investigating many alternative solutions to a given problem. Then evaluating them all against your requirements, your facilities and your resources. Then weighing them all up, before you decide. Mercedes Benz did it their way, which worked. I chose to do it slightly differntly. Time will tell if it works as well as the MB solution.

Now let's get back to making chips.  :thinking:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Johnmcc69 on September 28, 2021, 12:59:21 AM
 Mike, did you try setting up the gear train on a "sacrificial plate" to work out the gear centerlines? & machining the bores "theoretically" where they should be?

 I would have to think that even mass produced gears would have some "level" of accuracy & could be easily changed out.(?) In full scale...
 What kind of accuracy is required for your model? I understand the timing requirements, but chain drive cam timing has to have a lot more "slop" & proved itself in production scenarios (not comparing to model making..).

 Not criticizing your design, I'm just trying to keep up following along.
 John
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: RReid on September 28, 2021, 01:26:54 AM
Quote
Now let's get back to making chips. 
By all means. You make chips, and I'll switch from popcorn to chips and salsa!
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on September 28, 2021, 02:28:59 AM
GO MIKE GO!!!!!!


Its getting there my friend... watching and learning.....

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on September 28, 2021, 10:46:52 AM
Mike, did you try setting up the gear train on a "sacrificial plate" to work out the gear centerlines? & machining the bores "theoretically" where they should be?

 I would have to think that even mass produced gears would have some "level" of accuracy & could be easily changed out.(?) In full scale...
 What kind of accuracy is required for your model? I understand the timing requirements, but chain drive cam timing has to have a lot more "slop" & proved itself in production scenarios (not comparing to model making..).

 Not criticizing your design, I'm just trying to keep up following along.
 John

Hello John,

Thanks for joining the discussion.

I am attempting to build a replica of a 1930's era racing engine, warts and all, with minimal design change. I do not wish to 'improve' or modernise the design. If I did that, the engine could easily become more like the W12 engine used today by Lewis Hamilton. Both the W165 and the W12 are/ were 1.5 litre engines with forced induction, but there the comparisons end.

In answer to your questions.  I have layed out the theroretical gear train centres using CAD, working to a higher precision undreampt of back in the 1930's. I also built a layout model (sacrificila plate?) in perspex using discs of the correct PCD.   From these I learned thee things

1 The camshaft gear drive unit is much larger than the movement available on my bench top mill. The work would need to be moved around on the table, multiple setups etc.

2 The camshafts do not end up in the theoretic position, due to an accumulation of manufacturing tolerances in the crankcase, cylinder block, cylinder heads and cam boxes. Close, but not precise.

3 There are 6 individual gears involved driving the left bank exhaust camshaft. If each gear had, say, 1 degree of backlash, then the left hand exhaust cam could have up to 5 degrees of backlash error. I need to be at least an order of magnitude better than that. So the need for some form of backlash adjustment became obvious.

My idea of mass producion gears was making 7 of the idler gears, from these I was able to select the best fit. I am sure that if today's precision toothed timing belt drives had been available back in the 1930's then Mercedes Benz would have considered using them. The advantages of modern precision timing belts speak for themselves.

Now I am off to the workshop to make some chips.  :thinking:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Johnmcc69 on September 28, 2021, 02:36:19 PM
 :ThumbsUp:
 Thanks for the reply Mike! That certainly makes perfect sense now. (Especially not having the machine travel)

 Looking forward to more!

 John
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on September 28, 2021, 06:02:44 PM
Meanwhile, back at the chip factory inside Vixen's den, things have been happening.

I am now more than half way through set-up #5 of six. As you can see the pile of chips in the cabinet is getting deeper everyday. By the time I have finished I will have reduced those two 10 mm plates to an average shell thickness of 1.5 to 2.0 mm. So far, so good; I havent broken through anywhere yet. There was a small miss cut on the top edge. I spotted it quickly and amended the toolpath program to avoid it happening next time

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0435small.JPG)

The good news is:  I still have the datum corner and a datum face intact ready for the 6th and final set-up.

The bad news is: I now have to hand program a set of contour lines required to create a 5.5 mm radius on the outside of the gear cover plate in order to finish set-up #5.

It's getting tence, I would not like to have to start over again.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on September 28, 2021, 08:10:01 PM
Looking good  :praise2: The question, as always, is how good does it have to be for a model display engine? I know I don't have much tolerance with my fuel injection systems but for a valve train drive system as long as the gears engage and don't jam how precise do you need to be???  :thinking:  :thinking:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on September 28, 2021, 11:21:19 PM
Looking good  :praise2: The question, as always, is how good does it have to be for a model display engine? I know I don't have much tolerance with my fuel injection systems but for a valve train drive system as long as the gears engage and don't jam how precise do you need to be???  :thinking:  :thinking:  :wine1:

Thank you, Roger,

"The question, as always" sounds like you have asked this question before.  If so, I am sorry as I cannot recall it.  :embarassed:

" how good does it have to be for a model display engine?". For any engine to run, whether model or full size, single or multi cylinder, display or working; the compresion, ignition, carburtion and valve events must be within certain limits. Fortunately, for all of use, there is a certain amount of leeway. You can be several degrees out and the engine will probably run. I am hoping to get the backlash in the most distant camshafts down to within a degree or two, or at least as low as possible. I certainly wont accept a sloppy fit.  :hellno:

Your injection systems do not have the same leeway. The requirements for you fuel injection systems are far more demanding, requiring tighter fits and tolerances etc, an order of magnitude tighter than the average model engine. You are obviously enjoying that challenge.   :praise2: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on October 02, 2021, 04:42:41 PM
Some more progress in Vixen's den.

The 5th set-up was a sucess and now I have almost finished the 6th and final machining set-up. Only the outside 5.5mm radii to do. These will be machined as a series of waterline contours. They take a long time to program, I first draw each waterline contour by old fashioned 2D draphting and create the toolpaths from there.

Most of the original 10 mm alloy plate has been reduced to chips. I will do a before and after, weight comparison, to see how much has been shifted.

Just think. If this had been a casting..... just drill half a dozen holes and that's it finished. :ROFL:

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0439small.JPG)

Today is a wash out, it's the first of this autumn's rain storms. I have by fingers crossed, not to have another flood in the workshop. The groundwater comes up through cracks in the concrete base.  :'(

Mike

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: crueby on October 02, 2021, 05:56:17 PM
Quote
Just think. If this had been a casting..... just drill half a dozen holes and that's it finished.
After a week of figuring out how to flatten the sides, trimming the flanges, fixing the misalignments in mold halves, filling the voids, finding reference points....   ::)   

(can you tell I like bar stock?  :Lol: )
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on October 02, 2021, 08:29:09 PM
I'm still in awe and admiration  :praise2:

Quote
Today is a wash out, it's the first of this autumn's rain storms. I have by fingers crossed, not to have another flood in the workshop. The groundwater comes up through cracks in the concrete base.  :'(

Is it the whole surroundings that are like that or 'just the the base' ?
I have seen some having success with digging a ditch all around the base, put drain pipes (unfortunately more than one meaning in English) of the type that is perforated - into the bottom, cover with gravel and maybe some sand. Connect the pipe to the Rain water sewage system -> no more standing water.
I will not say that it completely removes all traces of moisture, but it stops any dammage to the building.

Per
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on October 02, 2021, 09:14:13 PM
Hello Per,

Thanks for the advice. I have been able to instal a gravel soak-away and drainage pipes, just as you describe, on three sides of the workshop building. Unfortunately, the fourth side, which causes the most problem, is unaccessable becuse it faces onto my neighbours land. He is not well disposed to the idea of digging a drainage ditch in his back garden.  I have to rely on natural drainage under that wall.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Craig DeShong on October 02, 2021, 09:37:15 PM
...He is not well disposed to the idea of digging a drainage ditch in his back garden...
Mike

You could always wait till he's gone on vacation and  >:D

well... you get the idea.  O:-)
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on October 03, 2021, 12:43:54 AM

You could always wait till he's gone on vacation and  >:D

well... you get the idea.  O:-)

"Hay Mike,  Do you know what happened to my flowerbeds while I was away on vacation ?"

"No idea.......what happened?"  :LittleAngel: :LittleAngel:

Mike  :lolb: :lolb: :lolb:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on October 03, 2021, 03:45:05 PM
Quote
Just think. If this had been a casting..... just drill half a dozen holes and that's it finished.
After a week of figuring out how to flatten the sides, trimming the flanges, fixing the misalignments in mold halves, filling the voids, finding reference points....   ::)   

(can you tell I like bar stock?  :Lol: )

Wot Chris said!......Castings are like a box of chocolate....you never know what your going to get....

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on October 03, 2021, 05:30:31 PM
Dave, Chris,

After the marathon effort required to machine the Rear Gear Case Cover from solid, the prospect of being able to do it easily from a 'good' casting has a certain appeal. But as you say castings often come with unwanted surprises.

The final two operations on the sixth and final set-up, involved machining an outside 5.5mm radii in two places. These were machined as a series of waterline contours. Below, you can see the toolpath layes and the finished 3D surface, which is located behind the Magneto drive.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0441small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0443small.JPG)



Here you can see both sides of the Rear Gear Case. There is still a certain amount of hand finishing required. I will kill the CNC machine marks later on.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0450small.JPG)



What started out looking like something from Batman now looks more like an angel.   :LittleAngel:

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0451small.JPG)


Now the 64 dollar question is "will it fit?"

The answer is YES. all the bolt holes line up perfectly. The three bearing bosses on back of the idler gear bridges fit neatly in the bearing housings.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0445small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0454small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0455small.JPG)

Two slabs of 10 mm alloy plate have been turned into a mountain of chips and two Rear Gear Case Covers. The covers were physically much bigger than the travel on my Emco bench top mill, so the work had to be moved constantly around on the mill table. The planning worked well, I was able to maintain a reference edge and reference corner until the very last operation, the 3D curved surface in the centre

"Jobs a good 'un"  Time for a beer.  :DrinkPint:

Stay tuned

Mike

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: stevehuckss396 on October 03, 2021, 06:51:12 PM
You have definitely earned a beer!
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: crueby on October 03, 2021, 07:59:25 PM
You have definitely earned a beer!
Take two, sit back, and admire!
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: RReid on October 03, 2021, 08:38:27 PM
Congratulations, Mike! Savor that beer! :cheers:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: scc on October 03, 2021, 09:22:20 PM
Wonderful!     .......lost for words again :NotWorthy:            Terry
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on October 03, 2021, 10:19:45 PM
Nice Mike!
That showed a great deal of patience my friend....and some careful setup, and clearly knowing the tool!!

The PORCH is done, and after I pick up groceries, I get to work on the Porsche!.....

Dave
 
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Hugh Currin on October 03, 2021, 11:52:37 PM
Marvelous!!
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on October 03, 2021, 11:53:27 PM
Thanks to you all for calling in.

That beer tasted great and hit the spot.

Mike.  :DrinkPint:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Kim on October 04, 2021, 12:11:46 AM
Congratulations, Mike!  That's a beautiful piece of work to compliment the rest of your beautiful engine  :praise2:

Kim
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on October 04, 2021, 09:57:46 PM
I feel confident that you are pleased with the result   :cheers:

So what is next up on this build Mike ?
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Craig DeShong on October 04, 2021, 11:43:45 PM
Looks great Mike.  I had one   :DrinkPint: in your honor.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Hugh Currin on October 05, 2021, 03:30:12 PM
Mike:

Very nice corner rounding. I was looking at the part again and had a few questions. Are you using a constant step over, constant step down, or a combination? It looks like the latter but that's harder to program. What is your thinking when you layout these water line tool paths? Also, how large are the steps and the radius of the ball end cutter (and radius of the corner you're cutting)?

What ever you did it sure looks nice.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on October 05, 2021, 05:11:50 PM
Splendid  :praise2:  :praise2:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on October 05, 2021, 05:18:05 PM
That came out well and should really look the part after a bit of rubbing and blasting.

However you have missed out the most important bit, what did the pile of chips weigh in at  ;)
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on October 05, 2021, 05:43:22 PM
Mike:

Very nice corner rounding. I was looking at the part again and had a few questions. Are you using a constant step over, constant step down, or a combination? It looks like the latter but that's harder to program. What is your thinking when you layout these water line tool paths? Also, how large are the steps and the radius of the ball end cutter (and radius of the corner you're cutting)?

What ever you did it sure looks nice.

Thanks.

Hello Hugh,

It's always good to have a question about how things can be done.

As you all know by now, I do not use 3D modeling and I do not have the likes of Fusion 360, so I create my 3D waterline profiles by old fashioned 2D drawing techniques. The waterlines produce constant width facets (is that the correct term?), each one is 0.57 mm wide. To do this I drew out this little diagram.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/WATERLIN.jpg)


The diagram shows the intended 5.5 mm radius curve and a set of circles representing the tip of a 7.0 mm ball nose cutter. I have divided the intended radius into 15 steps, each of 6.0 degrees. This produces the 0.57 mm wide facets. The waterlines are where the lines intersect with the 5.5 mm curve. I take the centre line X offset and the bottom centre Z depth for each waterline and use these to produce the individual waterline profiles with their corresponding Z depth. It's all old fashioned tech drawing, slow and tedious, compared with Fusion.  But it's what I have available and I have learned how to do it that way. The results speak for themselves.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0441small.JPG)


And for Jason,

I have not been back into the workshop for a few days, so cannot answer the before and after weights just yet.  Been busy, instead, trying to sort out the workshop water leaks and bringing in this years poor grape harvest.

Mike


Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on October 05, 2021, 07:37:52 PM
It did rain hard last night :'(

When using a ball nose cutter for this type of work "scallop" is the term that seems to be used for the stepover
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Hugh Currin on October 05, 2021, 09:48:15 PM
Mike:

Ah ha. That's why the machined edge has such an even look to it. It looks nicer than a step over or step down.

Great work. Thank you for the explanation.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on October 06, 2021, 11:22:31 AM
I hope that you find a satisfatory solution to your 'Water / Drain Problems', and preferbably sooner than later - for the sake of your sanity  ;)
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on October 06, 2021, 02:03:46 PM
Water problem solved     it's stopped raining  :facepalm:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: RReid on October 06, 2021, 02:55:52 PM
Quote
Water problem solved     it's stopped raining 
Glad to hear it. Though in this part of the world, the water problem won't be solved until it starts raining!
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on October 06, 2021, 02:56:55 PM
I wish I could say this is a long term solution (except for droughts).
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on October 13, 2021, 06:56:24 PM
Ok, It's back to business as usual, in Vixen's Den.

The cam drive gear case has been fitted to the rear of the engine. I have decided to make the outer covers for the camshaft gears next and then I can do all of the corner radius work and hand finiishing, all in one go. The two gear covers remind my of Mickey Mouse Ears.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0484small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0485small.JPG)


The plan is to machine the gear covers, two at a time as they are both identical. I started, as ever, with a large slab of 6082 T6. This one is 19 mm thick. The inside pocket of the two gear covers was machined to a depth of 9.7mm in one pass using a low step over (Ae),  high feed rate (Vf) stratagy and an adaptive toolpath. The gory details of this advanced technique are discussed in detail in Achim's 'CNC mill spindle upgrade' thread.

Here you can see the adaptive roughing underway, followed by a finishing pass and finally after the outer edges have been given a 3.5 mm internal radius.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0475small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0482small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0483small.JPG)


The pile of chips in the cabinet is getting bigger and deeper.

Stay Tuned.

Mike

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on October 14, 2021, 12:04:22 AM
It's more stunning every time I look at it Mike!

Cant wait for the crank!.....and rods!

Is that a fuel or oil regulator on the front to the right of the blowers under the High Pressure hose?



Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on October 14, 2021, 10:16:35 AM
Hi Dave,

Thanks for calling in.

The crankshaft will be the next major assembly to attempt. Need to finish the cam drive stuff first.

The thing to the right of the two blowers is the oil filter. It's part of the blower gearbox casting. It filters the scavenge oil from the engine and sends it through that flexible hose to the oil cooler and then back to the tank. The flexi hose, on the model, has been pushed into a convenient gap between the two blowers, it does not belong there.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: ddmckee54 on October 14, 2021, 07:58:30 PM
I remember hydraulic filters similar to that being used on some Swiss built lathes that I worked on almost 40 years ago, they were very neat.

Did you make the mechanical filter functional, or is the filter housing just used as an oil passage?  That would be a LOT of work to make it functional.  And even if it's a fake filter, it looks very good.

Don
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on October 14, 2021, 10:06:52 PM
Hello Don,

I wonder how many other members recognised the oil filter as being an edge filter, rather than a normal cartridge filter.

No, I have not put any mechanical filter discs inside, it is so much easier to replace the oil in the tank with clean fresh oil. Do not look upon it as a fake, think of it as being a 'full flow' filter.  :Lol:

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/Edge_Type_Oil_Filter.png)


In an edge filter, the oil is made to pass through several closely spaced discs which are alternately stacked on the center spindle, as well as the filter housing; as shown above. The clearance or gap between two successive discs is a few microns. The oil passes through the small spaces between the discs and any impurities are trapped by the disk periphery and edges. The trapped impurities can removed periodically, by operating the central knob.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Laurentic on October 14, 2021, 10:32:06 PM
Just catching up on this thread so apologies Mike to refer back to Reply#577, but the photos on that reply show stunning pieces of work Mike, that beer, preferrably two, was well deserved, superb.

Chris
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: crueby on October 14, 2021, 10:55:38 PM

I wonder how many other members recognised the oil filter as being an edge filter, rather than a normal cartridge filter.

Not me - never heard of one before. That is a pretty clever method. When the knob is rotated, where does the trapped impurities go? Not back into the oil output line and into the engine?   :headscratch:
Chris
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on October 14, 2021, 11:08:31 PM

I wonder how many other members recognised the oil filter as being an edge filter, rather than a normal cartridge filter.

Not me - never heard of one before. That is a pretty clever method. When the knob is rotated, where does the trapped impurities go? Not back into the oil output line and into the engine?   :headscratch:
Chris

The sludge remaines inside and accumulates in the spaces between the filter plates. It was necessary to dismantle the whole filter, once in a while, and wash the parts in petrol. I believe the edge filter was chosen because of the castor oil used to lube the engine. Castor oil can go gummy when overheated or contaminated by the dope fuel they used. The edge filter does not clog up with gum and sludge as easily as a paper filter.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: 90LX_Notch on October 14, 2021, 11:39:53 PM
Mike-

I’m speechless.  Engine porn at it’s finest.

-Bob
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: ddmckee54 on October 15, 2021, 03:20:28 PM
The sludge remaines inside and accumulates in the spaces between the filter plates. It was necessary to dismantle the whole filter, once in a while, and wash the parts

That's why I remember them.  I had to repair a hydraulic tracer lathe that wasn't working correctly.  We tracked the problem back to a dirty hydraulic filter, and rotating the cleaning handle didn't help.  I had to take the filter apart, clean it with solvent, then reassemble the filter - that's not EXACTLY a 5 minute job. (Even if I did cheat and put the filter parts in their industrial sized ultrasonic cleaner.)  Meanwhile the lathe operator was standing around looking over my shoulder and waiting for me to get the lathe fixed - so HE can start making some money by making parts.

Don
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Elam Works on October 15, 2021, 11:01:33 PM
Have an edge filter on two of the engine lathes. However the flow on those is from the outside to the inside. The tee-handle rotates a scraper that wipes around the outside of the stack, scraping off the sludge and debris.

-Doug
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on October 23, 2021, 01:57:02 PM
From the edge filter discussions back to the engine build. It's back to business as usual, in Vixen's Den.

You will recall I had made a start on the outer covers for the camshaft gear train. The plan is to machine the gear covers, two at a time as they are both identical. A start was made by machining the interior pocket shape in a large 19 mm thick slab of 6082 T6.

Next, the the billet was turned right side up and a new material datum point established at the bottom left corner of the material. The top surface was machined in a series of operations until both the upper surface and outside guitar like shape had been created.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0499small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0500small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0503small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0488small.JPG)



Next came the outer edge rounding. The outer edge 5.5 mm radius was created by milling a series of waterline profiles. Here you can see the toolpaths and the resulting 5.5 mm radius on the work itself. The rounded profile was cut using a 7.0 ball ended cutter which resulted in fifteen equi spaced facets, each a little under 0.5 mm wide.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0487small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0491small.JPG)



The next operation was to part off the two covers from the stock, using a 6 mm end mill. You can now see the reason for the 13 mm diameter pillar, which was used to support the centre part during the outside machining operations. Then it was a repeat process for the other two covers. Lots more chips were produced as the 19 mm billet was reduced to 2mm thick shells.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0492small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0495small.JPG)


Here you can see the outer covers resting loosly in place over the big cam shaft gears. There is still a lot more drilling and tapping and hand fileing required before these parts are complete. But that's for another day.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0496small.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0498small.JPG)

Thats all for this installment, but stay tuned.

Mike


Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: crueby on October 23, 2021, 04:23:31 PM
Definitely staying tuned!
 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on October 23, 2021, 04:53:38 PM
Worked a lot of hours this week, sorry....but following along, while I'm in the "steam box".... 8)

 :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Kim on October 23, 2021, 06:21:52 PM
The gear covers look amazing (as does the rest of the engine)!  :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Kim

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Craig DeShong on October 23, 2021, 06:53:23 PM
The gear covers look amazing (as does the rest of the engine)!  :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Kim

I'll second that!   :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: scc on October 23, 2021, 07:07:58 PM
Me too :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:     Terry
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: 90LX_Notch on October 23, 2021, 07:27:49 PM
Mike-

The gear covers are works of art.  Well done.

-Bob
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on October 23, 2021, 08:02:50 PM
Woa, fantastic result - again ....  :praise2:

Are you doing two engines (I forget) or are the other internal side 'just the pretrial' from the CNC Spindle debate ?
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Laurentic on October 23, 2021, 08:35:37 PM
Wow - digging into that Wow box again - this engine just goes from strength to strength in its build, just superb stuff, superb work there Mike, lovely jubbly - Wow.  Again.

Chris.
 
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on October 23, 2021, 08:54:16 PM
Thank you all for your encouraging comments. They make all the effort worthwhile.   :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Yes,  Per, quite correct. I am building two identical engines. One to wash and one to wear, so to speak. A lot of work goes into preparing the CNC toolpaths, so the extra cost in materials and machine time justifies the programming time. Actually, they will not be identical when finished, One will be fully assembled and complete, ready to run, and the other will be another exploded display to show all the details, inside and out,  of the advanced engineering that went into the pre-war Silver Arrows Grand Prix cars.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: RReid on October 24, 2021, 02:06:13 AM
Quote
One will be fully assembled and complete, ready to run, and the other will be another exploded display to show all the details, inside and out,  of the advanced engineering that went into the pre-war Silver Arrows Grand Prix cars.
I was just thinking today what a shame it will be when all that great stuff gets closed up inside the finished engine. Now I see your master plan, and I think it's brilliant! :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: cnr6400 on October 24, 2021, 03:40:36 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: gear covers - works of art!
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Craig DeShong on October 26, 2021, 02:25:57 AM
Thank you all for your encouraging comments. They make all the effort worthwhile.   :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Yes,  Per, quite correct. I am building two identical engines. One to wash and one to wear, so to speak. A lot of work goes into preparing the CNC toolpaths, so the extra cost in materials and machine time justifies the programming time. Actually, they will not be identical when finished, One will be fully assembled and complete, ready to run, and the other will be another exploded display to show all the details, inside and out,  of the advanced engineering that went into the pre-war Silver Arrows Grand Prix cars.

Mike

I remember seeing George Lhhurs fantastically small engine models some years ago.  The running engines were fantastic, but he placed exploded versions of the engines on a card near by.  It gave you a real appreciation of the talent involved. 

Your model deserves the same treatment because, as impressive as the finished model will be, seeing all the internal work that went into it will just increase the ‘wow’ factor. :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on October 26, 2021, 12:34:50 PM
Mike also did a very impressive 'Dual Engine - one runner and one Exploded' with his Jupiter build - where the 'Exploded Engine' is mounted on acrylic carriers, so all parts are held in the correct positions relative to each other.

It will be great to se this build shown in the same kind af arrangement Mike  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on October 26, 2021, 01:47:44 PM
Hello Per,

I am hoping to make a similar exploded display using acrylic carriers for the second W165 engine. It will be a challenge, as it is not as compact as a radial engine

Oh!!,  I only have the one Bristol Jupiter but two Bristol Mercury engines. You can find the 'Bristol Mecury Revisited'  build log at https://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,9272.0.html

Reply #33 shows the completed Bristol Mercury display

Cheers

Mike

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: RReid on October 26, 2021, 03:08:45 PM
That exploded display is is just so impressive and fascinating to look at. It inspires me to do something similar one day, but I'd have to go shopping for more patience (or attention span?). :cheers:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on October 26, 2021, 09:46:26 PM
Quote
Oh!!,  I only have the one Bristol Jupiter but two Bristol Mercury engines.

First I was so happy that I remembered the name of the engine  :whoohoo: - followed by - strange that I can't find the right section of the build in order to link to the display  :???:

SO thank you for setting the record straight Mike  :ThumbsUp:

.... note to self - why didn't you search Bristol instead  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on October 26, 2021, 11:50:54 PM
Yes it is!
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 19, 2022, 06:46:53 PM
You may (or may not) have noticed that things have been quiet on this build for a while. I had taken a short break from model engineering and now return with renewed energy.

The first thing I wanted to do was to complete the camshaft drive, gear case at the back of the engine. Most of the parts were made towards the end of last year, all that was needed was to sort out the surface finish and put it all together.

Here is the sequence showing how it all went together.


First start with a bare crankcase
(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0588smal.JPG)

Then add the front half of the gear case
(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0589smal.JPG)

Next, add the crankshaft and magneto drive gears
(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0590smal.JPG)

That is followed by the two cylinder blocks with their four overhead camshafts and camshaft gears
(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0591smal.JPG)

With all the input and output gears in place, it's time to add the three intermediate idler gears
(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0592smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0593smal.JPG)

With all those beautiful gears fitted and turning freely, it's time to start covering them up. First comes the rear cover
(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0596smal.JPG)

Followed by the two outer covers over the camshaft drive gears
(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0597smal.JPG)

With the gear case assembled, the two-stage supercharger can be put back on the front of the engine
(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0600smal.JPG)

Here you can see the dry sump located below the crankcase and the 3D printed (plastic) exhaust header
(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0602smal.JPG)


My daughter thought she should also get in on the act She said it was to give a sense of scale to the engine
(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0605smal.JPG)

Cheers

Mike


Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: michelko on February 19, 2022, 07:29:00 PM
Happy to hear from you and your awesome builds.
Keep on building.
Michael
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: RReid on February 19, 2022, 08:19:29 PM
I had noticed, and was hoping it was just a simple pause to refresh. Your daughter is right, a live person does give a better sense of scale than anything else. But regardless of scale it is a fantastic piece of work and I'm glad you're back on it!
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on February 19, 2022, 09:24:37 PM
I have noticed too, but didn't dare mention as there can be so many reasons why - like going back to round engines, tank engines and gearboxes, lack of interest for a while, health etc. ....

Great to see it assembled even more  :cheers:

Per
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Craig DeShong on February 19, 2022, 09:50:44 PM
With all those beautiful gears fitted and turning freely, it's time to start covering them up.

NOOOOOOOOOOOO! you can't do that; even if it's called for by the full size  :(

I was wondering about the hiatus; glad it was short and we get to see more progress on this magnificent model.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on February 19, 2022, 10:18:03 PM
Still here friend! Your work is always beautiful!
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Laurentic on February 20, 2022, 10:35:32 AM
Really beautiful work Mike, made all the more fantastic by your daughters insistence of element of scale, seeing just a photo it's easy to think it's a much bigger engine than it really is, seeing it tiny on your daughters lap makes all that detailed and precision work even more wonderful to contemplate.

Great job.

Chris   :cheers:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on February 20, 2022, 10:58:44 AM
Crankshaft!  Crankshaft! Crankshaft! Crankshaft!........... :LittleDevil: 8)
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: kvom on February 20, 2022, 01:49:01 PM
Love it!
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on February 21, 2022, 07:37:16 AM
Excellent  :praise2:  :praise2:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Zephyrin on February 21, 2022, 08:56:01 AM
Really amazing work on all these parts and the assembly, up to the surface finish softly reflecting daylight, everything is incredible !
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 21, 2022, 12:09:11 PM
Thank you all for your generous comments and encouragement. They are all very much appreciated.

During the winter months, I find less and less desire to go out into the cold and wet to get to the workshop at the bottom of the garden; the arm chair in front of the fire is much more appealing. From now onward, the weather should improve and progress can be made once again.

Last year I invested in a large bucket of glass bead blasting media to replace the previous alumina grit media. The difference was immediately obvious. The glass bead media produces a fine, smooth, finish which softly reflects the daylight whereas the alumina grit surface was rough, which attracted dirty finger prints.  Also, the alumina grit produced lots of dust within the cabinet and the work had to be done outdoors; it also lost effectiveness with time. By contrast, the glass bead media produces no dust and the media appears to be undamaged and can be used again and again.

Cheers :cheers:

Mike

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: BillTodd on February 21, 2022, 05:07:14 PM
Well worth getting some dust extraction when using glass bead. Dust may not be apparent but silicon is particularly nasty stuff to breath in.


Lovely work on that engine BTW 8-)

Bill
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 21, 2022, 05:27:43 PM
Well worth getting some dust extraction when using glass bead. Dust may not be apparent but silicon is particularly nasty stuff to breath in.

Bill

Thanks for the dust warning Bill. I have a vacuum cleaner connection on the side of the cabinet. However the noise of the vacuum cleaner and the compressor going flat out is deafening.  :ShakeHead:  :ShakeHead:

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Art K on February 23, 2022, 02:10:23 AM
Mike,
Been there done that, my job includes sand blasting. Or rather I should say media blasting since we use glass beads. With the sound the vacuum system makes, compressor is outside it's quite loud. Great work! nice to see the assembly.
Art
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on June 21, 2022, 01:36:56 PM
Morning All,

It's been a while , I know, but I have at last found time to make a little progress on this long running build. Along the way, this thread has passed 100,000 views. so thank you all for tuning in so regularly.

I used the time to make a start on the two sets of con-rods. That's a total of 16 con-rods plus a couple more; just in case.

The full size Mercedes Benz engine used a one piece hardened steel crankshaft and two piece hardened steel con-rods running with caged roller bearings. The roller bearing for both the big ends and main bearings run directly against hardened con-rod and crankshaft surfaces.

Here is a photo of a similar con-rod (it's from a full size replicas MB W125 engine). You can see the elaborate split line necessary to achieve prefect alignment of the two halves of the big end bearing. The replica con-rods were machined from solid, nitride hardened and then ground and polished to create the roller bearing surface. The full size crankshaft was also machined from solid, nitride hardened with all the journals ground and polished to size.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/16174771_1401336173244188_2410448722869165958_n.jpg)



I chose to do it differently; I will use one piece con-rods and a built up crankshaft. I do not have the means to harden, nitride and grind the con-rod eyes or the crankshaft bearing journals. Instead I created an alternative design to allow me to use commercially available thin section ball races for the eight big end bearings and also for the five main bearings.  With either design there would still a need for high precision. However, my alternative design, should be within the scope of my machinery. 

I chose a different poison to Mercedes Benz by following the Auto Union method of construction.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/CRANK-2.jpg)



Commercial thin section roller bearings are pressed into the one piece con-rod, they will have dummy big end bolts, just for show. The available thin section roller bearing were a little larger in diameter than I would have liked, which forced the wall thickness of the big end eye to be slightly thinner than the original design. It was for this reason, I felt it necessary to compensate for the reduced thickness by going for the strongest available aluminium alloy, for my one piece con-rods. I went for 2014 (HE15), as being the most affordable high strength aluminium I could find.

I only had a limited amount of the 2014 material to play with. It's much more expensive than 'ordinary' aluminium plate so I had to settle for an off-cut from my supplier. It was necessary to nest the con-rods on the stock to make maximum use of the available material. My table movement is a little under 8" x 4" but I found that it was possible to extract 8 con-rods from one piece of 8 x 5".

Here you can see the first operations. The stock plate was bolted to a jig plate, above a sacrificial stand off, which allows for bolt clearance. The top row of con-rods were machined to the first stage before the plate was rotated through 180* and the machining process was repeated. I used a boring head to bring the con-rods big end eye to the precise diameter, after first roughing out the hole by CNC

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0746smal.JPG)


Top hat buttons were machined and used to secure and locate the big end while the individual con-rods were profiled and separated from the stock material.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0751smal.JPG)



Here you can see the tool path used to machine the outer profile of four con-rods at a time. And below that, the first set of four con-rods released for the stock plate. I used my peristaltic 'no mist' mister to deliver a tiny amount of water soluble coolant and blow the chips away from the action.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0755smal.JPG)
(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0756smal.JPG)



After that, what was left of the stock plate was turned though 180*, bolted back on the jig plate to machine the second set of four con-rods. There was very little wasted material left because of the close nesting.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0754smal.JPG)


I had set off with the intention of making 16 con-rods plus two spares; just in case. Along the way one rod was lost; so I ended up with only 17. Here they are playing 'ring of roses' and 'piggy in the middle'.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0758smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0760smal.JPG)

The con-rod in the centre has been fitted with the thin section bearing (SKF 61802). You will notice I have used a sealed 2RS1 version of the bearing. All the big end bearings will eventually be replaced with open SKF 61802 R02 bearings, But there is far too much swarf about to do that at this early stage.

There's more to follow; so stay tuned

Mike


Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: RReid on June 21, 2022, 03:17:14 PM
It's great to see this project progressing again, Mike, I've been missing it! I always enjoy the background you offer regarding the logic behind the engineering choices you've made. And those conrods are definitely up to your usual beautiful standard. I:cheers:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on June 21, 2022, 05:53:08 PM
Splendid  :praise2:  :praise2:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: cnr6400 on June 21, 2022, 07:52:28 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on June 21, 2022, 09:25:34 PM
YES - Great to so this thread get another fine update  :Love:

I was afraid that I would have to ask my Doctor for a Prescription against Withdrawal Symptoms  ;D

Expect soon to have a Full Disclosure about how you Fake the Bolts and Nuts on the Rods :LittleDevil:

Great Parts Mike     :cheers:    :popcorn:

Per

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on June 22, 2022, 02:30:40 AM
Love what you did with the rods Mike!!! They look great!   Can't wait too see what you did with the crank!!!!

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on June 22, 2022, 11:21:21 PM
Thanks you all, for your kind words and emojis.

Today was a day of two halves. It started well and ended in a disaster. :'(

I started by making a new machining position on the fixture plate to give better access for adding detail to the con-rods.

I started by running a 1/8" corner radius form tool down both sides of each rod to create rounded edges around where the big end bolts would sit. The rod were flipped over after the first side, to complete the rounded edge.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0762smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0763smal.JPG)



The next operation should have been to machine a small undercut recess around the big end and little end eyes, to copy the Mercedes con-rods. I bought a brand new 3/8" x 1/8" woodruff cutter specially for this one operation. I created a special toolpath to machine the undercut. Unfortunately, I did not leave adequate clearance above that black high tensile fixture bolt on the left hand side. Disaster :censored:, the brand new cutter hit the high tensile bolt at rapid traverse speed and the high revs for cutting aluminium. There were a few seconds of sparks, smoke and a red glowing woodruff cutter before I was able to stop the machine. But those few seconds were enough to destroy a brand new cutter. Now I have a few days delay waiting for the postman to deliver the replacement and to amend the toolpath to give adequate clearance over the fixture hardware.

That woodruff cutter was supposed to be a HSS cutter ( well that's what I paid for) but it behaved more like a carbon steel one. It did not make much of an impression on the HT bolt but all it's cutting edges disappeared.

Oh well that's how it goes sometimes. You cannot make a nice omelet without cracking the odd egg.

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: crueby on June 22, 2022, 11:30:15 PM
Bummer on the cutter  but at least it's not a ruined part with many hours in it. Fascinating engine.   :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Kim on June 23, 2022, 05:20:17 AM
Mike, your con rods are beautiful!  Just a work of art.  And I like how you displayed them in the picture like a row of dancing con rods!

Sorry to hear about the loss of the woodruff cutter. Those guys aren't cheap :(  I've dropped (and chipped) a nearly new 1/2" carbide end mill so I know what it feels like to lose a brand new tool! 

I'm sure you'll get it sorted out, but it's no fun!

Tomorrow will be better!
Kim
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on June 23, 2022, 07:07:55 AM
Is there enough of the cutter left for it to be used for that custom shaped one or is it beyond resharpening?

Rods are looking good
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: mikemill on June 23, 2022, 09:02:46 AM
Mike

You have my sympathies re the cutter, I have had the same unpleasant experience.

As the machine moves in rapid mode you are just transfixed you know you have to hit the E stop but there is just not enough time as it all happens in tenths of a second.

I know adjust my clearance hight for each job. Good to se you are back on the Merc.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: john mills on June 23, 2022, 09:41:13 AM
your parts are looking great .
The rapid moves are can always be trap as the part can be different done at slow speed to check the parth .some times i put a extra position in the program to make sure it goes around the clamps .You never have enough time to hit e stops its usually all over by the time you think about it.We don't like it but sometimes cutters are lost in setting.its fascinating watching the parts take shape .my programming for years was just g codes it was a dream when i went to a conversational control when you can see the tool path be fore cutting but it can still be tricky.    John   
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on June 23, 2022, 11:19:57 AM
Thank you all for your messages of sympathy for our dearly departed woodruff cutter. They are so important at times like this.

I want you all to know that the the end came quickly and suddenly, the poor cutter did not suffer. A short committal service was held; just close friends, no flowers, no music or wake. The cutter was gently tossed into the box containing the remains of all it's predecessors.

Actually, the cutter was the cheapest I could find on e-bay. It did not seem to be hardened properly, so may not have completed the task anyway. The replacement is better quality, from a well respected supplier, but still not of the highest quality available. It only needs to last long enough to machine these aluminium con-rods.

It only goes to prove the old saying "Buy cheap... buy twice"

My machine has two e-stop buttons. A big red mushroom top button which kills all the power to the machine, spindle motor and PC. The second button is the Esc button on the keyboard, which simply stops the XY motion. You can never get to either quick enough to do any good.

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on June 23, 2022, 08:53:52 PM
I'm glad you are coping with your loss  ::)

When I am commissioning a new facility the first check is always that the Estop does what it is meant to do. The next checks have often required the Estop  :toilet_claw:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: kvom on June 24, 2022, 02:12:29 PM
I've hit fixtures with rapids before, so I feel your pain.  Always needed to retram the head afterwards.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on June 25, 2022, 05:19:16 PM
The Forum has gone unusually quite these last few days. A number of topics (including this one) have hung around on the 'Recent Posts' board or three or four days without being replaced.

I did not have to wait long for the replacement woodruff cutter. It was delivered by the Postman (from RDG Tools) first thing this morning. It only took little more than an hour to machine the grooves in all sixteen con-rods.

It didn't go quite that smoothly. The 3/8" diameter cutter was in fact 10.0mm diameter rather than the expected 3/8"(9.525mm) diameter. The groves in first con-rod were deeper than required, so I had to redo the tool-path using the new diameter. I managed to complete all 16 remaining con-rods with out further incident. It always pays to start of with some extras as you never know what might hit the fan along the way.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0769smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0765smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0773smal.JPG)

The tiny 1,5 litre W165 engine was very high revving for its day, red line at about 8000 RPM. MB thought it necessary to lighten the big and little ends as much as possible by machining these grooves; while maintaining the E value ( bend strength) with the two outside webs. Quite common place these days, but not 85 years ago.

One more step crossed off the list.

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on June 25, 2022, 06:42:02 PM
Mike was it also 3mm wide rather than 1/8" ? I bought a 10 x 3 one by YG-1 the other day but it was meant to be that metric size though in the end have not used it for the job it was bought for.

Did catch a bit of Goodwood live streaming on You-tube yesterday and there was an Auto Union going up the hill as well as some other oldies. Should still be available on the net.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on June 25, 2022, 07:14:43 PM
Hello Jason,

It was marked as a 403 and measures 1/8" wide but 10mm diameter.  :facepalm:

I will have to look out for the Goodwood Festival of Speed on You tube. Goodwood is just half an hour down the road, unfortunately they have hiked up the price of admission so high that genuine motor enthusiasts can no longer afford to go. You now need to be part of the wealthy 'right crowd and no crowding' set.

Auto Union were based in Zwickau, East Germany, they lost all their Silver Arrows cars to the Russians. So the car you saw would have been one of the replicas built by my friends at Crosthwait and Gardiner, specifically for Auto Union. They say £5M a copy.

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on June 25, 2022, 07:28:55 PM
To save you looking through 8hrs of video, at just after 58mins there is a 300SLR and then the Autounion

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvU-9YrakL8
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Lew Hartswick on July 02, 2022, 05:21:03 PM
Daughter and I just watched the GB  GP Qualifying  and I called her to come read the first post on that GP.  She is a Hamilton and Mercedes fan.  Personally I'm more a Ferrari or Red Bull fan. That write-up on the W165 was great.
Sure hope it doesn't rain tomorrow for the race.
   ...lew...
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on July 02, 2022, 06:35:08 PM

Sure hope it doesn't rain tomorrow for the race.
   ...lew...

Rain is about the only thing that makes it an exciting race these days :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Lew Hartswick on July 06, 2022, 01:46:27 PM

Sure hope it doesn't rain tomorrow for the race.
   ...lew...

Rain is about the only thing that makes it an exciting race these days :LittleDevil:
I think that partial first lap should have been adequately "exciting" for you .   Not what I like to see.
   ...lew...
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on July 06, 2022, 04:10:39 PM
Well the rain certainly made qualifying a lot more interesting and did mix up the grid a little for the race. No real offs but lessens the gap between the top teams and the also rans.

Last bit of the race after the safety car was probably the best and rain seems to bring out the SC more these days than it used to.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 25, 2022, 04:45:28 PM
Another update from Vixen's den. Progress has been slow due to a few weeks of exceptionally high (well, for the UK it was) temperatures which made working in the shed less than desirable. Fortunately, it's cooled down to normal and some progress has been made

I have managed to finish the 16 con rods for the two engines. You will recall they were made, in one piece, from H15 high strength aluminum. The 32 big end bolts seemed to take forever, as did the spot facing, centre drilling and drilling the bolt holes; which had to be repeated on the lower half as well as the top section of each con rod. You can see the particular problem with spot facing and drilling the top section, which could only be reached with an extra long end mill and a specially adapted drill Loctited into an extension rod.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0814smal.JPG)



I also took the opportunity to drill the two 1.0mm diameter oil holes which will lubricate the little end bearings.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0816smal.JPG)



Here is the first assembled con rod, only 15 more to go!!! The big end bolts are only dummies, in as much as they do not bolt the top and bottom halves of the con rods together. The con rods were made as a single part with the thin section 'open' ball race pressed in place. I expect the single piece con rod to be a bit stronger than than the bolted, two piece, alternative.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0822smal.JPG)


Eventually, all sixteen con rods were completed. I had to use M2.5 Nyloc stiff nuts because castellated nuts and split pins were simple not feasible at such a small size. When I look at this photo I can see some of the blue nyloc inserts need a bit of tidying up.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0821smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0820smal.JPG)



With the cooler weather, I have also been able to make a start on the two crankshafts. You may recall, I decided to go for one piece con rods and built up crankshafts, which will enable me to use commercial ball races throughout. Mercedes Benz, with their vast industrial facilities, used hardened and precision ground crankshaft journals and with split, two part, hardened and ground main bearing shells and con rods with loose rollers, bearing directly on the ground surfaces. I chose the easier option..... a built up crankshaft.  :o

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/CRANK-2.jpg)



The first stage was to start cutting up some 60mm diameter cold drawn EN8 steel from which to make the individual crankshaft webs. Where would we be if it were not for one of those Chinese imported band saws. It made reasonable light work of chopping the 60 mm diameter steel into a set of disks.
I used some aluminium extruded 'H' section as Vee blocks in the band saw vice. They worked well.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0807smal.JPG)



The individual disks are carefully numbered as their length are slightly different dependent on their location.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0804smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0805smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0808smal.JPG)



Now I need to summon up the courage (and patience) to mount them in the lathe and start turning the main bearing registers. I will be using the inner part of the commercial ball races to align the crankshaft sections. Well that's the plan.

Stay tuned

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: RReid on July 25, 2022, 04:55:28 PM
Those conrods are so pretty you really should have made at least one extra to mount and hang on the wall. :cheers:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jo on July 25, 2022, 05:00:10 PM
Looking good Mike, I can see the progress since I saw this at Guildford  :)


The first stage was to start cutting up some 60mm diameter cold drawn EN8 steel from which to make the individual crankshaft webs. Where would we be if it were not for one of those Chinese imported band saws. It made reasonable light work of chopping the 60 mm diameter steel into a set of disks.
I used some aluminium extruded 'H' section as Vee blocks in the band saw vice. They worked well.

I keep being tempted by one of those  :thinking: I am still using the 4" mechanical hacksaw that one of my fellow apprentices "lent" me back when we were doing our apprenticeships  :old: Eric has now sold on his 8" capacity bandsaw  :wallbang:

Jo
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: crueby on July 25, 2022, 05:00:37 PM
Very impressive work!    :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 25, 2022, 05:17:08 PM
Those conrods are so pretty you really should have made at least one extra to mount and hang on the wall. :cheers:

Hello Ron,

Actually, I started off with 18, but two were lost along the way due to miss-cuts while setting up for one of the batch runs. Like true heroes, they sacrificed themselves for the good of the of the rest. Even damaged parts can act as 'crash dummies' for the next operation.

Jo,

I do not know how I could cope without that power bandsaw. If anyone were to ask me how to set up a new machine shop; I would say" start with a bandsaw and then buy a lathe". Eric cut me a length of 6 inch diameter steel bar in that big bandsaw, it took next to no time. It was a big powerful beast.

Chris, Thanks  :ThumbsUp:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on July 25, 2022, 07:41:00 PM
Splendid as ever  :praise2:  :ThumbsUp:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 25, 2022, 07:43:49 PM
Roger,

Thanks :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on July 26, 2022, 12:21:58 AM
Those look spectacular Mike!    though I am very excited to see what you get on about the crankshaft!!!!!     :popcorn: :drinking-41:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on July 26, 2022, 11:20:26 AM
Fantastic looking Conrods Mike  :ThumbsUp:

Like Dave, I'm looking forward to see you making the Crank   :cheers:

Per
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Brendon M on July 27, 2022, 03:38:41 AM
Hello Mike

I have caught up on this thread and the attention to detail is simply amazing!
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 27, 2022, 02:04:50 PM
Thanks Brendon, Per and Dave for calling in. Your encouragement is always welcome.

Like you, Per and Dave, I am also waiting to see how these crankshafts turn out.

I have made a small start. The first opp is to face one side of the crankweb and turn the main bearing journals. The main thin section ball races are used to align the sections of the crankshaft. The main bearings are quite beefy; 20mm diameter.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0829smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0828smal.JPG)

Stay tuned; there's lots more crankshaft stuff to follow

Mike

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Zephyrin on July 27, 2022, 02:26:40 PM
Hi,
the installation of all these one-piece connecting rods on the crankshaft does not seem to me a very simple and obvious operation...I await the continuation with impatience!
I always sit comfortably to look at this thread, because I spend a very long time on it...
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: kvom on July 27, 2022, 02:33:41 PM
Does inner race of conrod go over outer race of crank?
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 27, 2022, 02:53:42 PM
Hi,
the installation of all these one-piece connecting rods on the crankshaft does not seem to me a very simple and obvious operation...I await the continuation with impatience!
I always sit comfortably to look at this thread, because I spend a very long time on it...

Hello Zephyrin and kvom

I am attempting to make the built up crankshaft in a similar way to that of the Auto Union engines, throughout the 1930's  and the way Mercedes Benz turned to with the W196 engine in the 1950's. All these engines used Hirth couplings as can be seen in the attached photo.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/W196_crankshaft~0.jpg)



Mr Schillings has shown us an easier? alternative, method to the complex Hirth coupling in his well known book, which uses the inner part of a ball race to achieve the required shaft alignment with pegs to transmit the torque.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/built_up_crankshaft.JPG)



We shall have to wait and see how well it turns out

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: cnr6400 on July 29, 2022, 01:32:40 PM
Hi Mike, Question - on the journal "tubes" - are these tubes keyed somehow to the crank pin halves? I don't think I'd want to depend on loctite for that job, necessarily.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 29, 2022, 02:49:05 PM
Hello cnr6400,

Sorry for any confusion. It's my fault for using an older, out of date, illustration showing a hardened steel 'tube' at the big end bearings.  :embarassed:   Dave (Steamer) helped me with some of the drawing work, a while ago.

The current design uses thin section, roller bearings at both the big end and main bearings. I will be using the big end roller bearing inner to align the big end journals in a similar way to the main bearings. Both will have fitted pins to transfer the torque, rather an Loctite. That should provide the added advantage of allowing the crankshaft to be dismantled should a bearing replacement be required. (I hope that is never required).

The points of contact, shown by the blue circles are critical to the alignment process, while the faces with the red crosses have clearance, so they do not interfere with the alignment process.

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 29, 2022, 04:43:29 PM
Not much to show for three afternoons of lathe work. All 16 crankshaft discs have completed the first opp, ie. facing and main bearing register, which produced a bucket full of curly blue swarf.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0830smal.JPG)



This is how a main bearing looks, when two crank webs are bolted together.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0831smal.JPG)



So far; so good

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: cnr6400 on July 29, 2022, 05:47:27 PM
Thanks Mike! sounds great! following along... :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: ddmckee54 on July 29, 2022, 08:00:04 PM
I don't remember if you've told us or not, but will there be any type of pressure oiling system in the crankshaft?  Or will everything on the bottom end be splash oiled?

Don
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on July 29, 2022, 09:07:49 PM
Not much to show for three afternoons of lathe work. All 16 crankshaft discs have completed the first opp, ie. facing and main bearing register, which produced a bucket full of curly blue swarf.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0830smal.JPG)



This is how a main bearing looks, when two crank webs are bolted together.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0831smal.JPG)



So far; so good

Mike

Mike I know what you mean....a lot of chips for a bunch of hockey pucks!!   the other side of the part doesnt provide anymore satisfaction as they still seem like hockey pucks.....stick with it, eventually you  get to stack them into a crank and it all comes together!!

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 29, 2022, 09:51:30 PM
Dave, Don thanks for calling in. It's always good to get questions and feedback.

Don, I described the oil pipework (the snake pit) way back in Reply # 377 and the battery of pressure and scavenge pumps even further back in time, in reply # 191.  Geez, I've been at these engines for a long, long time  :censored:

Roller bearings do no not need a high pressure oiling system but the do like a constant flow of oil at low pressure. One of the pump sections, in the pump block, supplies the flow of oil, which is piped to the five main bearing caps. The oil is sprayed into each of the main bearings, the resultant splash then lubricates the big end bearings and the cylinder walls, before being sucked out of the dry sump by the two scavenge suction pumps. The scavenged oil flows through a cooler and back to the oil tank, where it settles and de-airates before returning for another pass through the engine.     Simple really ??????

Only Mercedes Benz could make it that complicated.  :shrug: :shrug:

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0045small.JPG)

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Hugh Currin on July 30, 2022, 03:47:20 PM
Mike:

Great progress. You have more patience than I'll ever have.

It sounds like the alignment of the crank depends on these disks, that left and right need to be parallel to the n-th degree. Did you do anything special to assure this parallelism? When I saw the diagrams above about alignment I thought of machining left and right sides in the same set-up. But I couldn't come up with a way to do it. An indicator on the back side would be hard because of the jaws getting in the way. Maybe soft jaws? Can you align the disks (rotation) for the least run-out and keep that orientation? Or are they parallel enough not to worry about this tolerance stack-up? Inquiring minds want to know.

Again a marvelous undertaking. Outstanding skill and patience. Thanks for the write-up.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on July 30, 2022, 05:55:02 PM
Hello Hugh, thanks for calling in.

Yes, maintaining parallelism between both sides of each crank-web is absolutely essential. Like you, I have though up and devised many different ways to try to get both sides truly parallel, most of these ideas have been discarded as not quite feasible for one reason or another.

You ask, What did I eventually decide to do? Hugh, that's a bit like turning to the last chapter of a 'who dun it' novel to find the answer, before reading the book. All will be revealed as I proceed.

However, since you asked, here's the overall plan

In the first opp, one side of each crank-wed and main bearing journal was turned dead square, concentric and true. The first face will be bolted tight against a freshly faced off face plate and hopefully the second face will then also be true and parallel to the first. The rotational positioning will rely on using the crankcase as a jig to align the individual crankshaft sections and test for squirm and run-out before drilling the drive pins. I considered using 'Vee' blocks but believe the line bored crankcase will hold all five the big end bearings in-line, much more securely.

For those who may be interested, you will find more about my adventures with line-boring the crankcase between Reply #294 and Reply #317

Well that's the basic plan. We will have to see how well it stands up to the first encounter with reality.   
There is still a lot to do, so there is still plenty of time for it all to turn into a disaster movie. 

Cheers    :thinking: :shrug: :facepalm:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 03, 2022, 10:59:12 PM
Again, not much to show for another couple of days in the shop.

The first photo shows my sacrificial faceplate mounted in the four jaw chuck. The faceplate has been bored 20mm dia to match the main bearing spigot on the crank webs. The face of the faceplate was then given a light skim to ensure it's working surface was true and square with the lathe's axis.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0835smal.JPG)



Here you see one of the crank webs bolted to the faceplate using the central bolt, which will eventually be used to build up the whole crankshaft. Then I could do the second opp; which was to turn the outside diameter of each crank web square and true to the big end journals

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0836smal.JPG)



As I said, not much to show; but here are the 16 crank webs turned and one side faced. Just a bunch of shiny hockey pucks.  8)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0837smal.JPG)



Cheers  :DrinkPint:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Kim on August 04, 2022, 05:10:24 AM
Looks like a lot of work to me! And they each have to be a different size, just to complicate things.  Nothing can be simple on this engine, eh?   :popcorn:

Kim
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on August 04, 2022, 11:46:18 AM
I really like your sequence Mike  :ThumbsUp: - my thoughts where more complicated  :-\

How much clearance did you end up with, between the Spigot and the Pilot Hole ?

Per        :cheers:     :popcorn:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 04, 2022, 12:39:05 PM
Hello Kim and Per,

Thanks for calling in and providing moral support.

Kim. if it were easy, what would be the challenge?  :noidea:

Per, if I understand your question correctly; the spigot on each crank web is a light interference fit with the pilot hole in the faceplate. I hope that will keep everything concentric and square.  :thinking:

Here is the crankcase with all the oil pumps and pipework removed ready for the action.

I did a trial fit with some of the crank shaft parts inside the crankcase. It's a tight fit, it's meant to be that way. Interestingly, I could only fit the crank web discs in three of the bays, the oil pipe lump on the side the crankcase 'casting' in the front bay, does not give enough clearance for a complete disc. However it will fit comfortable when the rear of each of the crank webs is machined away to form the counterweight.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0839smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0840smal.JPG)



Stay tuned

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on August 04, 2022, 12:45:48 PM
Working a lot of hours Mike but following along    stick with the larvae crank will bloom!
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 04, 2022, 01:52:51 PM
Hello Dave,

Thanks for calling in. Sounds like they are keeping you busy.

Larvae?? Whats that about larvae? The last larvae turned into this thing, tying to get in through the office window to eat me.  :help:

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0832smal.JPG)


It's actually quite beautiful.
Can anyone identify it?

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Bluechip on August 04, 2022, 02:33:36 PM
Not usually the elevation to identify moths, but ...

Garden Tiger Moth ??

https://ukmoths.org.uk/species/arctia-caja/

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on August 04, 2022, 03:21:46 PM
I am following the crankshaft along and like you am interested in how square and parallel you can keep it all  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 04, 2022, 03:49:19 PM
Hello Dave and Roger,

Roger, Keeping everything square and parallel is absolutely essential. I will do the best I can and hope for a successful outcome. I am sure the Schilling method of achieving alignment from the roller bearing inners is more likely to work in a hobby environment, than trying to attempt nine or more of these Hirth couplings.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/WZ_Hirth01-400x286.jpg)


Dave, Looking at your link, you may be right about it being a Garden Tiger Moth. I was rather expecting a biplane with a propeller up front.

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 05, 2022, 12:44:03 PM
It's been a busy day in Vixen's den. Lots done today.   :ThumbsUp:

The next opp is to turn the rear face of the crank webs and to turn the offset big-end journal. To do that, I first need to accurately move the fixture plate by half the stroke distance; so a setting tool was required.

Some aluminium round was turned to the same size as the main bearings and a concentric ground steel rod fitted. This was then mounted on the milling machine in a three jaw chuck (my preferred method of holding round stock on the mill). The mill was clocked in and zeroed, central to the steel rod. The mill was then off set by the required distance and a second hole was drilled and reamed to accept a second ground steel pin.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0833smal.JPG)



The setting tool was transferred to the face plate fixture, I used to turn all the main bearing journals. The position of the faceplate was then adjusted in the four jaw chuck and clocked in to be concentric with the offset pin in the setting tool.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0843smal.JPG)



The re-positioned faceplate fixture was again faced off, to ensure the working surface remained square and true to the lathe's axis

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0845smal.JPG)



The first crank web was bolted to the face plate fixture with a socket head screw through the big end journal, as in the previous opps. The rear face and the big-end bearing journal could then be turned to size. Note, the counter bore for the main bearing fixing bolt head slightly eclipses part of the big-end journal.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0846smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0847smal.JPG)



Here is the first crank web disc after the third opp. I have marked the approximate shape of the counterweight on the disc. A con-rod and big-end roller and it's roller bearing were added to confirm everything fits. I am using sealed bearings during the manufacturing stage, these will be replaced with open style bearings later, when there is less swarf around.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0848smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0849smal.JPG)



Machining the rear face and big-end journal is slow and time consuming because of the eccentricity and need for accuracy. The good news is: one has been completed,  :ThumbsUp:  the bad news is there are 15 more still to do.  :ThumbsDown: :ThumbsDown:

That may take a while, so Tune in later

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on August 05, 2022, 01:03:48 PM
Mike could the mill be put to use to do the majority of this operation and then just do the final facing and finishing of the spigot on the lathe, should be able to set one going on the mill while you turn another.

I'll go back to quietly following along now :)
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 05, 2022, 02:16:32 PM
Hello Jason,

Thank you.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: Yes, I thought about that. The mill would certainly remove metal at a faster rate. However, it would require another fixture plate for the mill with the added complication of devising some way of re-locating the parts at the correct rotational orientation, as they move from one machine to the other. Most, if not all, of the lathe work would been to be repeated; mostly cutting air. The current method is slow and tedious but has the virtue of being a simpler, single action, set-up. I'm in no big rush; I'm not going anywhere.

Are you thinking of going to the Midland Show?

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on August 05, 2022, 02:39:11 PM
Would have thought if you left a reasonable amount of diameter on the spigot you could position it by eye, say 2-3mm all round. A matching dia bit of something held in the lathe tailstock could even be used and brought up to the work which would just need rotating on the fixtures peg in the lathe and then locking into place. Your 3-jaw on the mill would do to hold it for the roughing cuts.

Not sure yet about the show, probably decide a day or two before. There is not really much I need so would only pick up a few odd bits of metal to save postage costs and then a quick look around the stands and exhibits.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Hugh Currin on August 05, 2022, 03:57:32 PM
Mike:

Thanks for the explanation for machining the disks. And then a demonstration of the process. Nice.

When I asked I thought you'd already squared them, just getting ahead in time.

Great work. Thanks.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on August 05, 2022, 05:41:14 PM
Are you using a centre drill to support the end of the reamer in the first picture?
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 05, 2022, 06:39:31 PM
Oops sorry. Guilty as charged.

I admit to being too lazy to fire up the small lathe to make a dead centre for the collet chuck. Besides, the reamer is turning in the non cutting direction of the centre drill. It is only centralising the reamer, not applying any pressure.
I should have known that some eagle eyed person would notice.  :embarassed: :embarassed:

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 17, 2022, 12:02:58 AM
Other priorities and the hot weather have kept me out of the workshop for a few weeks and the hot weather has not helped. It's cooled off, so I am back in the shed making swarf, lots of hot swarf

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0882smal.JPG)

Can you see what it is yet?

Some of that metal is coming off really hot and flying everywhere; you need long sleeves, otherwise it stings.

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: RReid on August 17, 2022, 12:22:27 AM
Quote
Some of that metal is coming off really hot and flying everywhere; you need long sleeves, otherwise it stings.
Sometimes stink too, when they land in your mustache right under your nose and burn the whiskers. But that's better than when they get caught between your safety glasses and the bridge of your nose. That leads to a "branding".
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: crueby on August 17, 2022, 12:37:58 AM
Quote
Some of that metal is coming off really hot and flying everywhere; you need long sleeves, otherwise it stings.
Sometimes stink too, when they land in your mustache right under your nose and burn the whiskers. But that's better than when they get caught between your safety glasses and the bridge of your nose. That leads to a "branding".
This afternoon, after playing in the shop, I had gone outside and sat on the porch. A few minutes later, it felt like a bug was rappelling down from my glasses onto my face - quick swat at it, managed not to destroy my glasses in the ICK response, and found out it was a long thin spiral of shavings from the lathe that had been sitting in my hair and dislodged by the wind! 
 :paranoia:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: kvom on August 17, 2022, 03:59:53 PM
Long sleeves while operating a lathe?  Not me.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 17, 2022, 06:33:16 PM
Long sleeves while operating a lathe?  Not me.

Hi kvom,

That's an interesting comment.

Those of us who live in more northern latitudes can expect to wear long sleeved clothing for nine, maybe ten months of the year. In wintertime, multiple layers of clothing, including over the arms, is quite normal in the workshop. Most of us still have the ten digits we were born with.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on August 17, 2022, 08:24:49 PM
I thought we where Born with Twenty Digits  :lolb:  though I suppose that you have to drop something heavy or very sharp to loose some off the Lower Ones  :LittleDevil:

Per
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: john mills on August 18, 2022, 04:51:56 AM
not wearing long sleeves at the lathe seams a bit strange i have usually worn a boiler suit in a machine shop long sleeves would have been a must i did a lot of milling and you would have a lot of burnt arms  i usually put my hands behind my back to avoid hot chips i had a job
in more recently   with heavy turning it only took a few minutes to work out you needed leather gloves to cover your hands or your hands got burnt. larger hot swarf would land on your hands and would burn but normally don't need to wear gloves.they only trap swarf on your wrists.
  factories often now have signs saying do not wear gloves at machines usually by people how have not actually done machining.
john
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 19, 2022, 08:26:38 PM
It's cool enough, in the morning, to wear long sleeves again. So much nicer than getting hot swarf burns on the arms.

I'm making steady progress with machining of the built-up crankshaft segments. Fourteen of the sixteen are now complete. Should be finished with that opp by the weekend. Then, it's profiling the outside of all the balance weights and drilling holes for the location dowels.

The next two photos show the crankshaft segments in loose formation with the crank pins positioned in-line with each other. When the crank pins are eventually be pinned and bolted together, there will be 90 degree intervals between the crank pins.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0888smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0891smal.JPG)


Each crankshaft segment was bolted to the faceplate by a single, central, M5 bolt and so, is reliant on friction. The M5 bolt is pulled up real tight. As you see, the big end journal has a significant offset from the centre of the disc (main bearing). There is plenty of interrupted cuts at the beginning of each pass, before the big end journal is reached. The interrupted cut, together with the single point mounting dictates relatively shallow depths of cut, but the feeds and speeds can still be acceptably high. It is far better to be conservative with the depth of cut, even though it takes longer, than to risk a 'dig-in' or dislodging the crankshaft segment. My Colchester Chipmaster is quite capable of some really heroic, monster, cuts and fast metal removal, but not this time round.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0885smal.JPG)


I started with a new box of 10 lathe tips, in anticipation of a high usage rate due to the interrupted cut. The first couple of tips did not last long before they chipped. The third tip from the same box of 10, lasted and lasted; with little sign of wear or chipping. I cannot explain why, the feeds and speeds and DOC were identical for all the segments and the tips all came out of the same box. Different batches perhaps? or uncertain Chinese quality control?

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on August 20, 2022, 03:05:45 AM
It's certainly getting there!   Keep digging Mike, the end is in site!

I found at this point, that the lathe fixture is delicate.   Any bump, and the face will run out,    Keep checking it for face runout, and don't be afraid to take the thinnest of facing cuts to true it up between parts...


Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on August 20, 2022, 11:27:28 AM
Great progress Mike - you can really start to see where this (Crank) is going  :ThumbsUp:

I do not see any through hole in the 'Pin Area' - will this be a later addition, with another setup or ..?

Per
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 20, 2022, 12:49:33 PM
Dave and Per, thanks for calling in, a little encouragement is always welcome.

Dave, that's a very good idea to re-face the faceplate before mounting the next part; that would eliminate any anxieties about run-out, etc. I wish I had been doing that earlier.   :embarassed:

Per, the threaded half of the segments are threaded blind and do not show, only the socket head in the opposite half shows, but will be hidden from view by the roller bearings and the con rods. The holes for the alignment pins (dowels) are yet to be drilled. I cannot do that on the lathe set-up. The crankshaft segments will be coordinate drilled on the mill. I will only drill one side, the two halves of each crankshaft joint will then be jig aligned, the central bolt tightened, before the alignment pin holes are drilled through and reamed to achieve the final size for the pin/dowel.

I am not sure if I explained that very clearly. I should reveal itself later

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on August 21, 2022, 02:08:55 PM
What I did was check the face of the fixture before and after I cut a part...and I skimmed it if it needed it... ( I wanted less than 0.0005" run out)

As long as the zero repeats that the least run out I was going to obtain....that's all she wrote...and it was pushing my SB to the limit...I have a plain bearing headstock and while spindle float is small, it's far from zero and dances around .0005" axial.   Radially, if I can get at least 100 rpm it lifts about .0007" but stays put.      A ball/roller  bearing headstock shouldn't do that....

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 21, 2022, 07:50:39 PM
Hello Dave,

Sounds like you know SB better than the back of your hand.

They say the accuracy of any part depends on the intrinsic accuracy of the machine, multiplied by the skill of the machinist. Skill can go some way to make up for some of the machines deficiencies.

You also need to allow for the fact that lathes rarely turn truly flat flat faces, they are most often ever so slightly dished.

You can only do your best with the equipment to hand.

Enjoy your week off

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on August 21, 2022, 09:53:59 PM

"You also need to allow for the fact that lathes rarely turn truly flat flat faces, they are most often ever so slightly dished.".004


.0004" at 6" diameter....concave of course..... 8)

Funny thing is....this year marks 10 years since the rebuild, so I did some alignment checks to see where things have gone.....far as I can tell....they haven't budged a bit!

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 21, 2022, 10:13:10 PM
Hello Dave,

So, how do you measure 0.0004" at 6 inches.
 Concave... of course.
If you stamp your feet down hard you can get bigger readings than that.  :shrug:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on August 22, 2022, 11:32:05 AM
Quote
Concave... of course.

I needed to think a bit about that statement ....
I suppose that the reason is that the Holder for cutting Edge isn't so easily Deflected closer to the Centre, as further away ....  :thinking:

Per
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 22, 2022, 12:27:50 PM
Hello Per,

The squareness of the cross slide with respect to the lathe bed axis is the responsibility of the manufacturer. There is little the lathe owner can do about it, short for a complete re-manufacture or re-grind of the bed and cross slide.

In an ideal world then lathe should face-off a face plate perfectly flat. I practice, this is unlikely to happen. Therefore, it is preferred that the lathe produces a slightly concave surface rather than a convex surface.   The reason......... A convex surface will rock when placed on a perfectly flat surface, whereas a concave surface will not; so giving the illusion of greater 'precision'.

The concave angle is very very small (somehow Dave has managed to measure 0.0004" at 6" diameter). In normal circumstances, this slight error can be ignored. But it does exist, so we should be aware of it.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 22, 2022, 01:19:22 PM
I have now completed the machining of all 16 crankshaft segments. My next step was to bolt together a couple of parts and see how they fit inside the engine.
To my horror  :wallbang: the crankshaft section would not fit into the crankcase.

The problem was immediately obvious. The inside of the crankcase had been machined, from the solid, using a 8mm ball cutter to produce smoothly curved surfaces with beautifully radiused edges. I found the crankshaft disks were rubbing on the 4mm radius fillet in a few places. The fix was simple, I needed to spot face the bearing webs, inside the crankcase, to remove some of the offending 4mm radius fillet.

I found some ground steel stock which was a nice sliding fit inside the big end roller bearings. I made a hardened silver steel cutter, which could be set to the required diameter to spot face the offending bearing webs inside the crankcase. This improvised boring bar was supported inside the crankcase, by two widely spaces big end bearings. The boring bar was rotated by hand and slide sideways to advance the cut. The inside faces of each bearing web, both sides were spot faced in turn.
 
(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0896smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0893smal.JPG)


You can just see the freshly cut surfaces, either side of the bearing webs

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0895smal.JPG)



Here, the rear section of the crankshaft has bee re-assembled. Everything now fits and rotates smoothly. Even the con-rod exits through the correct cylinder hole.  :cartwheel:

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0900smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0904smal.JPG)

I hope the rest of the crankshaft goes together without further hitches. But somehow, I don't think it will quite work that way.

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: crueby on August 22, 2022, 01:35:23 PM
Wow. Can't say much more till I can get my jaw off the floor...
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: sco on August 22, 2022, 01:38:03 PM
Happens to the best of us Mike - when I worked at Ricardo a customer was present for an initial engine build and was not impressed to find the crank wouldn't rotate, which is fairly fundamental....

All looks great though with your build,

Simon.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: cnr6400 on August 22, 2022, 02:22:14 PM
Great work Mike!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: RReid on August 22, 2022, 02:50:59 PM
I'm not sure the MB engineers of the day would have ever arrived at such a simple and practical solution to the problem. Well and beautifully done! :ThumbsUp: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on August 22, 2022, 09:07:34 PM
That's  amazing Mike!!!  Keep it comimg!!!!


I'll post a reply to the alignment question in another thread...but it's really easy....

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on August 22, 2022, 09:48:20 PM
Thank you very much for the reply Mike  :ThumbsUp: - made me a bit wiser (I wish it was Smarter too) ...

I feel your rush of Fear (and other not Nice feelings + Words) when the Crank don't fit - followed by the relief when you realize that it isn't such a big disaster after all .... + I kind of get the 'Oh Yes' when the Cure is working .....
Something of a Roller Coaster Ride  ....  :cheers:

I'm also kind of lost for not repeating myself - when it comes to Praise for your Work  :praise2:

Per
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 22, 2022, 10:46:54 PM
Thank you all for calling in,  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

I always appreciate your comments and the moral support. Your comments make posting progress on the MEM forum so worthwhile.

Per, I did not get that cold rush of Fear, you describe. I knew the crankshaft would fit, it was designed to fit. I was annoyed, more than anything, when an unknown 'something' was getting in the way. I had not fully considered the effects of the 4mm fillets, but they were easy enough to remove.

Simon, That must have been embarrassing for Ricardo when their crankshaft wouldn't rotate. They say you should never do something, for the first time, in front of a live audience. A private dress rehearsal, before hand, would have been a wise precaution.

Dave, Thanks for the cross slide measurement tip. Easy when you know how.

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 29, 2022, 01:18:18 PM
Time for a quick progress update from Vixen's den before they light the blue touch paper under the Artemis SLS rocket.


My fixture faceplate was transferred to the mill and the working face trued up once again to ensure everything remains square and vertical.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0907smal.JPG)



Another setting fixture is now required to position each crank pin in the correct position with respect to the main bearing. The crank pin is held in the correct position while the main bearing central bolt is tightened

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0909smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0910smal.JPG)



The dowel holes can now be drilled in one side of each pair of crank discs. The position and number of pin holes is different for each location, so special care is needed to identify each part.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0918smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0919smal.JPG)



The crankshaft is a typical V8 configuration, with the big end crank pins are positioned radially in multiples of 90 degrees. The next operation is similar in some ways to quartering the drive wheels of a steam loco.  The individual pairs of discs were mounted on the dividing head so the crank pin journals can be correctly positioned radially. One side of the pair was gripped in the three jaw, it's position was adjusted, by judicious tapping, until the at the opposite face clocked true. When everything clocked true a height setting gauge was positioned snugly under the left crank pin and the rotary table zeroed. The height gauge was removed, the rotary table indexed through 90 degrees. The height gauge was then positioned under the right hand crank pin; the central main bearing bolt was loosened just enough to allow the right hand crank pin to be rotated into contact with the height gauge. Everything was then tightened and checked and rechecked. This pair of crank discs were now in the correct orientation so that the big end main bearing dowel pins could be drilled through.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0914smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0916smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0915smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0920smal.JPG)



The sections of the crankshaft were offered up to the crankcase after the quartering operation; to check they still fitted and still ran true.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0922smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0923smal.JPG)

So far, so good

Stay tuned

Mike


Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: crueby on August 29, 2022, 01:58:24 PM
Parts are looking great! Thats an impressive crankshaft assembly.

And you can have plenty more time in the shop today, they have scrubbed the launch of Artemis today, apparently a shop gnome got in and got caught in the engine bleed line on #3 engine.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: cnr6400 on August 29, 2022, 03:13:20 PM
New report - rumour has it that gnome was lookin for a bronze fitting about 1/2" diameter, to be re-purposed in a plug valve....... :Lol:

The Artemis is one huge machine. It will be great to see it fly.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on August 29, 2022, 03:40:39 PM
Enjoying another Episode of Vixen's Den  :cheers:

I'm guessing that there is a good reason for why you haven't included the Big-End Bearings in the Assembly so far - but it kinds of eludes me right now (or is that just the remnicents of the Impatient Kid, still burried somewhere in me ?) ....

Per
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 29, 2022, 04:35:07 PM
Thanks for calling in, your generous comments are always most welcome,

Per, That's because I have not yet got to the big-end bearing assembly part yet. Quartering the main bearing parts comes first.

The first photo below, shows two of the crank disks with the 20mm diameter main ball race sandwiched in between. The precision ground faces and bore, of the ball race, are an essential part of the precision alignment of the individual crankshaft parts (Schilling system) The second photo shows the core of the main bearing part of the two crank discs being drilled through to accept the dowel pins after the big end journals were quartered. My earlier description was wrong, so I have gone back and edited the earlier post.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0916smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0920smal.JPG)

Sorry about the confusion; I was rushing to get ahead of the Artemis countdown, which never happened.

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Kim on August 29, 2022, 05:09:52 PM
Sorry about the confusion; I was rushing to get ahead of the Artemis countdown, which never happened.

Sounds like they may give it another go this weekend (the Artemis launch, that is :)).

Your crankshaft is looking amazing!  It's always a pleasure to read your updates, Mike.  Everything is so crisp and tidy!

Kim
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on August 29, 2022, 06:31:25 PM
Some splendid crankshaft manufacturing  :praise2:  :praise2: Following along and enjoying  :)  :)  :wine1:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Craig DeShong on August 29, 2022, 11:00:38 PM
It's cool enough, in the morning, to wear long sleeves again. So much nicer than getting hot swarf burns on the arms

Long sleeves for maybe three or four months here in North Carolina, otherwise you would roast!

Great progress on the model Mike, this one dropped off my radar for some reason.  Too interesting to not keep up.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 30, 2022, 07:59:29 AM
Thank you all  :ThumbsUp:

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on August 31, 2022, 11:26:31 AM
That's coming along great Mike!    Keep it coming...I'm in and out as I'm working this week, but trying to get next week off...

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on August 31, 2022, 02:04:47 PM
Thanks Dave,

Real life is getting in the way of progress this end as well

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on September 05, 2022, 12:25:11 PM
I had hoped to give another progress report from Vixen's Den. However very little progress has been made other than loosely assembling the crankshaft sections prior to alignment and dowel pin drilling.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0937smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0938smal.JPG)


                                                          Then this happened.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0936smal.JPG)

The red line tells the whole story.

For the last two and a half years my wife and I have isolated ourselves, as best we can, from the rest of the world. Visits from friends and family have always been out in the open air as we try to shun closed spaces. Obviously we need to visit shops for food, but we try to do that in the early mornings when the shops are relatively empty. Sounds like a safe plan?

So what went wrong? We traced back the time line from when my wife first felt unwell (5 day incubation period) and discovered the only possible contact was during a routine blood test at the local health centre. You would have though that a safe environment; everybody wearing blue face coverings and the staff wearing scrubs, rubber gloves etc. But that is where it happened, we were alone in our home for several days before and after.

We have both tested positive and are looking after each other as best we can while we ride out this storm together. I guess we are only about half way through the ride. Fortunately, the virus mutations and the vaccine program make the infection far less deadly than at the start of the pandemic.

At the moment, I am looking forward to the destination, as I'm not enjoying this part of the journey

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: kvom on September 05, 2022, 01:04:00 PM
I've had 4 shots and still got it in May.  Stay safe.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Charles Lamont on September 05, 2022, 01:38:58 PM
Well, I wish you both the mildest case.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: cnr6400 on September 05, 2022, 02:00:05 PM
Take care Mike, best wishes for a speedy recovery for you and your wife.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Michael S. on September 05, 2022, 06:09:19 PM
I hope it will be mild and I wish you a speedy recovery

Michael
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Kim on September 05, 2022, 06:10:14 PM
Sorry to hear you both got the dreaded disease! :(
I think it's here to stay and that it's just a matter of time before we all get it, just like the flu, or a cold.
And as you say, it's much less deadly now, with the vaccines and latter variants and all.

I heard on some program where they were talking about virus mutation and they were saying that it is in the virus's best interest NOT to be deadly.  If a virus kills its host, it limits its ability to propagate. So often a virus will mutate to being more transmissible, but less deadly.  I don't know if it's true, but it kind of makes sense.

Kim
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on September 05, 2022, 07:33:39 PM
With a hope for a speedy recovery for you both and best wishes

Per          :cheers:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: michelko on September 05, 2022, 08:42:33 PM
Best wishes for you andyour wife
And a fast recovery
Michael
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on September 05, 2022, 09:19:59 PM
Get better friend!
The both of you!!

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Craig DeShong on September 05, 2022, 09:59:42 PM
That thin red line says it all.  We too took what we thought were adequate precautions; but with our son’s job requiring him to visit customer sites, it was only a matter of time.  Fortunately both the wife and I had what I’d call a mildly annoying case and I hope your experience is likewise.

I suspect we will all get it sooner or later.

Best wishes for a speedy recover to both of you.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on September 06, 2022, 04:15:31 PM

Thanks guys. I cannot find the words to say how much I appreciate your support and all those get well messages. There were so many of you who took time out to reply. May we simply thank you, one and all, for your thoughtfulness.

As Kim And Craig said, it's almost inevitable that the virus will find it's way under our defenses one day, Fortunately, the infections appear to be getting milder as a result of the vaccination program and natural mutations.

I think we may be through the worst, after 8 days, and will soon be on the mend.

Thanks again

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: cnr6400 on September 06, 2022, 05:49:26 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Kim on September 06, 2022, 06:09:17 PM
Glad to hear the two of you are on the downhill side of this thing.  But so still a whole lot of no fun regardless.  Here's hoping for your continued quick recovery!

Kim
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: deltatango on September 06, 2022, 10:04:25 PM
It's good to hear that you are on the mend. I hope that you both recover quickly and completely.

We've been keeping our heads down (all bar one of the kids and partners have had Covid) and avoided having any symptoms so far but exposure to the bug seems inevitable.

I've been following this engine build but haven't had anything useful to add - your work is brilliant.

David
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on September 07, 2022, 02:26:10 PM
I hope you both a speedy recovery  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:  :wine1:

In the early summer my wife and I both had hayfever like symptoms (not uncommen for us). When the rain came and the symptoms didn't go away we both went and had a Covid test. Mine was positive and my wife's was negative. Two days later mine was also negative. I'm still not sure if I really had it  :headscratch:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on September 07, 2022, 03:10:03 PM
Roger, Dave, Kim and cnr

Thanks again for your support and good wishes. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate your messages.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on October 24, 2022, 04:53:04 PM
Jeez, Charlie Brown, when you decide to slow down; you really do slow down.

Not much has been happening in Vixen's Den for the last six weeks, due to the unwanted after effects of the damn Covid infection. I started testing negative at the beginning of September but the Covid Cough just continued and developed into a respiratory problem with all the associated breathing problems, brain fog and fatigue. Some days are not too bad, the others I would prefer to forget.

Last week I ventured out, for the first time, to visit the Midland Model Engineering Exhibition to collect some models which I had put on display. Since then, on the good days, I have ventured into the workshop for an hour or two; in the hope that a little 'metal therapy' would help.

You may recall, I had got as far as loosely assembling the crankshaft sections prior to alignment and dowel pin drilling, before I was forced to stop.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0937smal.JPG)


Now, seven weeks later, all I have managed to do is to roughly hacksaw the excess material off the crank webs to form the counterbalance weights. The white plastic piece is a template for the required shape of each counterweight.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0941smal.JPG)

Not much in itself, but a big step forward for me

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on October 24, 2022, 10:35:55 PM
Certainly progress  :ThumbsUp:

I can see something that resembles sawmarks - but doing curved with a hacksaw is not easy ....
Did you cut from many different starting points to achive this ?

Great to see you back in the shed  and may progress on ALL accounts continue  :cheers:

Per
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: cnr6400 on October 25, 2022, 02:53:56 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Lots of sawing , however it was done! Never mind the time elapsed, all going forward, anyway!
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Art K on October 25, 2022, 03:17:23 AM
Mike,
Just caught this post. Someone said it's just a matter of time till we all catch it. In June my wife and I both caught it. Questionable whether she from hairdresser or me from a coworker who tested negative twice but still missed a day work. The first day was the worst, went home and slept for two days. It took me about a month to get back to my normal energy level. I've got so much to do and slowly getting things done. I've been updating my mill, building a plexiglass surround to contain coolant and chips. As well as the normal home stuff. Slowly moving forward, good progress on your build.
Art
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on October 25, 2022, 11:38:49 AM
Thanks everyone :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Per: Correct, straight saw cuts from several directions, followed by a course file to remove the sharp corners.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on October 28, 2022, 12:49:10 PM
Things are gradually improving.   :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:  I am now able to manage a couple of hours each day in the workshop. A little 'metal therapy' does a power of good.

I have made a start at profiling each of the 16 crankshaft webs. It will take a while, as I can only manage to machine two or three a day. I appear to have lost the photos of the machining fixture. However, here are some photos of one of the part finished crankshaft sections, the rearmost section with the drive gear for the overhead camshafts.

The outside profile was done with a standard 6.0mm end mill. The two scallops on either side, were machined using a 10.0mm diameter 3.0mm corner radius bull nosed cutter. The first two images show the rearmost crankweb (4B).

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0974smal.JPG)
(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0975smal.JPG)



The final two images show the two rearmost conrods and the other crankweb (4A) all loosely assembled.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0979smal.JPG)
(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0982smal.JPG)


Another small step for me, but at least I am moving forward again.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: RReid on October 28, 2022, 01:26:52 PM
Lovely. The finish and detailing of your work always inspires me to do a bit better myself.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: cnr6400 on October 28, 2022, 03:10:32 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Kim on October 28, 2022, 05:18:24 PM
Progress is progress, and I'm glad you're able to be out in the shop and make some!  :popcorn: :popcorn:

I'd love to see your fixture if you can take a few photos next time you're out.  As has been said, your work is always inspirational!

Kim
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on October 28, 2022, 06:41:42 PM
Looking good  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp: Take it easy, things will get better  :)
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on October 28, 2022, 08:20:12 PM
Great to hear that you are enjoying yourself again Mike :ThumbsUp:

That it has to be 'smaller doses' is still a lot better than No Joy  :'(

The rest of us will also enjoy your post - no matter the size  ;D

Per            :cheers:

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Brendon M on October 29, 2022, 03:00:43 AM
You hack-sawed the crank counterbalance weights!? :o

By golly, that would have been good exercise :)

The crankshaft looks amazing
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on October 29, 2022, 03:34:27 PM
Machining the Crankshaft Counterweights

Thank you everyone for calling in and those of you who just looked in. It's nice to know you are there.

Brendon, A brand new 32TPI Eclipse bi-metalic blade helped. However, I only had the energy to do two or three each day.

Kim, actually I did show the fixture plate and the setting device way back in Reply #729: 29 August 2022. I think that was the day before the Covid paid me a visit. There's been a bit of brain fog since then and I still have that damned cough, eight weeks later.

Here is a brief picture summary of the fixture plate how I located each crankshaft part prior to machining the outside profile and the three scallops on both sides.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0992smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0991smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0989smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0990smal.JPG)


Here is a nearly completed crankweb. There will eventually be 16 of these, for the two crankshafts.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0986smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0985smal.JPG)


I have a new helper in the workshop, He says 'Hi' to the two Elfs and also to 'Slim'.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0996smal.JPG)

His friends call him 'Crash'; most others just call him 'The Dummy'. He says he is going to help out in the shop by getting me organised and giving his advice as often as he can. I guess we will see how long that lasts.

Mike

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: crueby on October 29, 2022, 03:56:02 PM
Great use of the fixtures, well thought out!

And the shop elves here say Hi! to Crash, they are (trying to) save him a beer...
(https://i.postimg.cc/DfBPBKqK/IMG-0907.jpg)
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Kim on October 29, 2022, 05:15:07 PM
Thanks for the pictures of your fixture and how you use it!  Very clever  :ThumbsUp:  :)

Kim
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on October 30, 2022, 04:19:06 PM
Initial Assembly of the Crankshaft

It's taken a long time, what with the unwanted interruption and everything; but finally, I have enough part completed components available to do a loose assembly of the full crankshaft. As I say, it's a loose assembly, everything is in it's approximate position but nothing is yet correctly aligned. The crankshaft needs to go into the assembly jig for that.

Oh!, to get a sense of scale, 'Crash' is about 6" (150mm) tall.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1000smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1002smal.JPG)



The next two images clearly show how the Mercedes Benz balanced the W165 crankshaft. A classic example of a cross-plane crankshaft with counterweights.
The outer rows 1 and 4 are 180* opposed, as are the inner rows 2 and 3. The middle two rows are also set at 90* to the two outer rows.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1003smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1006smal.JPG)


Now it's all got to fit into the crankcase somehow and there is not much room to spare, especially when you start adding the con-rods as well.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1008smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1009smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1010smal.JPG)

I feel I am getting somewhere at last.

Mike    :cheers:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: crueby on October 30, 2022, 04:33:23 PM
Awesome work! Hopefully when its done Crash wont get it in a chassis and live up to his name...
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on October 30, 2022, 05:47:27 PM
I'm in the middle of some generator repair but I'll be poking in later my friend  Nicely done sir!!!

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on October 30, 2022, 06:36:54 PM
Splendid  :praise2:  :praise2:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on October 30, 2022, 07:52:17 PM
Looks Amazing  :praise2:  :praise2:  Mike

Is there a reason for the single 'Bearing' on each Throw ?

Per            :cheers:

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on October 30, 2022, 10:23:55 PM
Thank you all for taking the time to call in and for stopping by to see the progress.

Per, when fully assembled, there will be a full compliment of eight bearings for the eight con-rods.  Actually I broke one of the jaw fingers of my bearing puller, so until that is fixed, I do not want to press the additional bearings onto the big end journals. I only needed four bearings to align the big ends for this trial assembly.

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on October 31, 2022, 03:12:15 AM
That looks magnificent Mike.    I can't wait to see it in place.   I'm sure its wonderful!!!

Let us know when the bearing puller is fixed!!!

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on October 31, 2022, 11:41:25 AM
Alignment - yes of course .... I should have figured that one out myself  :facepalm:

I really hope that the leg on the Bearing Puller, will be that last time you encounter Sods Law on this build ....

Per
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on November 18, 2022, 03:54:24 PM
Assembling the Crankshaft and Con Rods into the Crankcase

There is rather a lot of steam engine stuff on the forum at the moment, so I thought something for the 'petrol heads' would make a welcome change.

The Mercedes W165 build seems to be moving at a glacial pace. It has always been a slow build and the forced eight week stoppage , due to post Covid complications, has not helped.

In this installment from Vixen's Den, I will concentrate on the final assembly of the first of the two built up crankshafts. You will recall the original W165 had a one piece crankshaft with split mains and big end bearings. All bearings had the rollers bearing directly on the hardened crankshaft and bearing shells. I felt that a hardened and ground crankshaft, all those con rods and bearing shells was beyond my machinery capabilities and elected to use commercial ball races with one piece con rods and a built up crankshaft. I also chose to use the Shillings alignment approach rather than Hirth couplings. The illustrations below show the principal I intended to use.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/built_up_crankshaft.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/CRANK-1.jpg)



You will notice that the crankshaft must be assembled from front to rear, one component at a time, because each clamping bolt is covered and hidden by the next item to be assembled. When fully assembled; none of the clamping bolt heads will be visible.

The whole assembly process needed careful alignment to ensure the assembly was both straight and concentric. I chose to use the crankcase as the alignment jig and build up the crankshaft in situ.

Here, you can see the component parts required for each pair of con rods. The main bearings are aligned by the 20mm ID, main roller bearings. The con rod journals are aligned by the 12mm ID, big end bearings. None of the journal ends actually touch each other. Instead, they butt up against the precision ground bearing inner. The big end bearings also require a shim washer between the roller bearings to control their distance apart. The shim washers were between 30 and 35 thou thick and were selected to fit, as required.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1027smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1047smal.JPG)





Here you can see how the first pair of con rods are assembled to the crankshaft. This repeats as more sections are added to the crankshaft

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1029smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1030smal.JPG)



Here you can see the crankshaft growing in length from the front to the rear.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1031smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1034smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1036smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1039smal.JPG)


You can see just how tightly the crankshaft fits into the crankcase. The gap between the counterweights and the bearing caps is typically 10 thou. That is why the shim washers need to be carefully selected. That involved no end of assembly/ test/measure /dis-assembly/ repeat; to find the correct shim thickness.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1043smal.JPG)



All that careful work paid dividends. The fully assembled built-up crankshaft spins straight and true with minimum effort require to rotate it. This clearly shows that all the main bearings achieved near perfect alignment; much to my relief.

Crash decided to add his own version of quality control, he says he can get in much closer than me.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1045smal.JPG)


Now all I have to do is repeat the whole exercise for the other crankshaft. At least I have been up the learning curve once, so it should not take as long.

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: crueby on November 18, 2022, 04:05:03 PM
More wow's - I was really impressed reading through that post, then I got to the statement about repeating it all for the OTHER crankshaft! Wow.   :NotWorthy: :praise2:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: cnr6400 on November 18, 2022, 04:54:44 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

I just hope Crash wasn't stuffing a scale sized apple core up an oilway while he had his mitts in the crankcase!  :Lol:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Kim on November 18, 2022, 06:13:28 PM
That is really impressive, Mike!  Just amazing planning and craftsmanship!  :popcorn: :popcorn:

Kim
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: RReid on November 18, 2022, 08:19:51 PM
Great to see you making real progress again, Mike. I always look forward to your updates. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: petertha on November 18, 2022, 09:39:17 PM
That's just beautiful, Mike. You are making me increasingly interested in a 'straight' engine once this 'round' engine of mine is complete. I stared at the Schillings drawings & could visualize the parts, but not really the subtleties of assembly.

I want to make sure I understand your mating contact areas during bolt up. Where you have the red X (my red arrow), are those crankpin bosses slightly counterbored so the face to face contact is kind of like an annular ring? Because I also see a flush faces on the blue circles. Or maybe that is just CAD making the dimensions exact?

Is there any Loctite type retainer involved in this process along the way, or all step by step mechanical fastening?
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on November 18, 2022, 10:20:52 PM
Thanks to everyone who has looked in and especially to those who made the effort to post a reply. Your feedback is my reward for creating these progress reports.

Petertha,

 Sorry to distract you from radial engines. Remember always "Real engines are round".

The Schillings built up crankshaft illustration ( created by Steamer, relating to his Porsche 917 built up crankshaft) is a generic illustration of the principal. My crankshaft design is slightly different and is shown below.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/built_up_crankshaft.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/CRANK-1.jpg)


In my design the crank pins ( marked by the blue circles) are a tight fit into the precision ground ball bearings inners; which provides the crankshaft alignment. There are two radial alignment/ drive pins in each of the main and con rod crankpins. one side of the alignment /drive pins are a tight fit in it's crankpin, the other side is a non interference fit; to ease fitting and dismantling.

In my design, there is a 20 thou gap between the crankpin ends (marked by the red crosses) NOT as shown in the illustration. This gap ensures the two crankpin end faces do not touch and so do not interfere with the alignment provided by the precision ground ball bearing inners.

At the moment I have used no Loctite retainer. I am uncomfortable about this and intend to use a light threadlock to prevent any of the clamping bolts from vibrating loose.

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on November 19, 2022, 08:12:20 AM
Magnificent as ever  :praise2: :praise2: I'm glad you are over the worst of the Covid problem.

I have often looked at the Schillings crankshaft design in his book/articles and it is good to see yours and Steamers builds  :)
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on November 19, 2022, 11:12:26 AM
Crankshaft and Camshaft gear train

Thank you Roger, for your kind comments and good wishes.

Both Dave (Steamer) and I have now successfully built Schilling style built-up crankshafts. The Porsche 917 being a flat V12 and the MB W165 being a 90* V8. We talked together a lot, while we were working out the two individual designs. The alignment accuracy seems to be totally dependent on the accuracy of the lathe work, in particular, the accuracy and repeatability of the crankpin offset fixture for turning the big end journals.

I could not resist bolting on the camshaft drive train and the two cylinder blocks. The whole lot turned over as smooth and sweet as you could wish; no bumps or lumps in the drive train. Another big step forward.

I wish I knew of a simple way to add a video to these posts. Still photos have their place but sometimes a video adds so much more.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1051smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1050smal~0.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1049smal.JPG)

Crash, don't come crying to me if you get your finger nipped in the gear mesh.

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on November 19, 2022, 01:02:47 PM
I haven't had time to enter this site for two days .... and what an update while I'm away  :o

The final pictures shows a piece of art  :praise2:   :praise2:  (I suppose that some of the praise must got to Mercedes-Benz too - as your build is a very faithful Replica)  Mike

Some of my Suzuki Motorcycles had buildup crankshafts and the Original Service Manuals always shows those thin shims (available in a number of thiknesses) - but your build is the first time I hear about anybody I know, having to deal with this issue.
So while you have learned much assembling the first Crank - I don't think you will completely avoid having to assemble parts - just to measure and disassemble for a different thinkness shim a number of times here too  ;)

Great to see that you're back to being in the Sheed and Enjoying your time there  :cheers:   :cheers:

Per
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on November 19, 2022, 06:02:36 PM
I haven't had time to enter this site for two days .... and what an update while I'm away  :o

The final pictures shows a piece of art  :praise2:   :praise2:  (I suppose that some of the praise must got to Mercedes-Benz too - as your build is a very faithful Replica)  Mike

Some of my Suzuki Motorcycles had buildup crankshafts and the Original Service Manuals always shows those thin shims (available in a number of thiknesses) - but your build is the first time I hear about anybody I know, having to deal with this issue.
So while you have learned much assembling the first Crank - I don't think you will completely avoid having to assemble parts - just to measure and disassemble for a different thinkness shim a number of times here too  ;)

Great to see that you're back to being in the Sheed and Enjoying your time there  :cheers:   :cheers:

Per

Yup.  Mike and I have certainly been jawing over this, and thus far I find this method of crank build to be a great way to get it done.   My 917 crank is very similar to Mikes....and I had the comfort of knowing that if each operation was carried out well, it would be successful.... unlike the unknown distortion you get from a billet crank, or brazed/welded crank.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on November 19, 2022, 06:11:55 PM
Mike,

This build is stunning!!!   and I am so excited and thankful to watch this grow!....

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: petertha on November 19, 2022, 08:45:22 PM
In my design, there is a 20 thou gap between the crankpin ends (marked by the red crosses) NOT as shown in the illustration. This gap ensures the two crankpin end faces do not touch and so do not interfere with the alignment provided by the precision ground ball bearing inners.
Mike

Thanks for your patience with all my dumb questions.
- so the resultant squareness & length of each progressive CS throw segment is entirely controlled by the (I'll call them) flush crankpin rings like so?
- what material did you choose for rings? Hardened?
- maybe you mentioned grinding them or otherwise tweaking them if required? If so was that done on surface grinder or could this be done by lapping? I guess I'm wondering out loud what sort of alteration amount would be expected
- your connecting rods have bearings which is really the magic of this assembly, but do you see any reason why this CS buildup method could not be used for plain bearing/bushing style of rod?
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on November 19, 2022, 10:05:31 PM
In my design, there is a 20 thou gap between the crankpin ends (marked by the red crosses) NOT as shown in the illustration. This gap ensures the two crankpin end faces do not touch and so do not interfere with the alignment provided by the precision ground ball bearing inners.
Mike

Thanks for your patience with all my dumb questions.
- so the resultant squareness & length of each progressive CS throw segment is entirely controlled by the (I'll call them) flush crankpin rings like so?
- what material did you choose for rings? Hardened?
- maybe you mentioned grinding them or otherwise tweaking them if required? If so was that done on surface grinder or could this be done by lapping? I guess I'm wondering out loud what sort of alteration amount would be expected
- your connecting rods have bearings which is really the magic of this assembly, but do you see any reason why this CS buildup method could not be used for plain bearing/bushing style of rod?

As I recall from our discussions and the concept models like the one shown, that is an off the shelf roller bearing inner race that was available from the usual industrial hardware outlets.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on November 19, 2022, 10:55:52 PM
In my design, there is a 20 thou gap between the crankpin ends (marked by the red crosses) NOT as shown in the illustration. This gap ensures the two crankpin end faces do not touch and so do not interfere with the alignment provided by the precision ground ball bearing inners.
Mike

Thanks for your patience with all my dumb questions.
- so the resultant squareness & length of each progressive CS throw segment is entirely controlled by the (I'll call them) flush crankpin rings like so?
- what material did you choose for rings? Hardened?
- maybe you mentioned grinding them or otherwise tweaking them if required? If so was that done on surface grinder or could this be done by lapping? I guess I'm wondering out loud what sort of alteration amount would be expected
- your connecting rods have bearings which is really the magic of this assembly, but do you see any reason why this CS buildup method could not be used for plain bearing/bushing style of rod?

As I recall from our discussions and the concept models like the one shown, that is an off the shelf roller bearing inner race that was available from the usual industrial hardware outlets.

That's correct Dave. The illustration petertha keeps referring to is only one of many concepts we looked at, unfortunately it was the only one I could find. The hardened roller bearing inner, shown in the illustration, would be ideal for use with a plain bearing/bushing solid conrod.

The design I used for the W165 looks more like this. You can see how the crankshaft segments fit tightly into the ball races and the gaps between them. You can also see the shim washer between the two conrod bearings.
Only the locking bolts are shown, the dowel pins have been omitted for clarity (I think?)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/CRANK2.jpg)

Hope this helps

Mike

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on November 19, 2022, 11:57:33 PM
Yup   as I recall we had several concept layouts going back and forth.     I really like where you ended up!

Dave


Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: kvom on November 20, 2022, 09:15:49 AM
I've been away traveling for 3 weeks.  Great update to come back to.   :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on November 20, 2022, 09:51:48 AM
Welcome back kvom

Dave  I drew up at least six alternatives before I settled on option 3.
Several of the rejected options used a hardened steel sleeve: can you recall any of "the usual industrial hardware outlets" for the  'off the shelf roller bearing inner race'?

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/CRANKOPT.jpg)

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on November 20, 2022, 03:05:25 PM
Welcome back kvom

Dave  I drew up at least six alternatives before I settled on option 3.
Several of the rejected options used a hardened steel sleeve: can you recall any of "the usual industrial hardware outlets" for the  'off the shelf roller bearing inner race'?

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/CRANKOPT.jpg)

Cheers

Mike

Yes    McMaster Carr   Here's the link    They are known as shaft liners

https://www.mcmaster.com/roller-bearings/shaft-liners-for-precision-needle-roller-bearings/

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on November 20, 2022, 03:07:02 PM
As I recall, and I've had a few variations on a theme for my crank, that these liners were a bit long, and that it might have been a requirement to shorten them for either of us to use them,     

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on November 20, 2022, 03:26:46 PM
Thanks Dave,

When you know how they are described, it's easier to find a supplier.

For those of us over this side of the pond; try 'Simplybearings.co.uk' and search for 'needle roller inner rings' Plenty of sizes and lengths to choose from; at affordable prices.

These inner rings will allow you to do a Schilling style, built up crankshaft, and use plain bearing/bushes in the conrods, when there is insufficient room for a roller bearing.

Alternatively, you could use a pressed in, hardened, solid pin, As Steamer did so successfully, with his superb Porsche 917

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on November 20, 2022, 03:31:21 PM
Thanks Dave,

When you know how they are described, it's easier to find a supplier.

For those of us over this side of the pond; try 'Simplybearings.co.uk' and search for 'needle roller inner rings' Plenty of sizes and lengths to choose from; at affordable prices.

These inner rings will allow you to do a Schilling style, built up crankshaft, and use plain bearing/bushes in the conrods, when there is insufficient room for a roller bearing.

Cheers

Mike

I went with hardened crank pins made from ground A2 steel rod, cut to length and then heat treated and tempered..   I did this because the available room on the 917 crankcase was quite narrow, and prototypical rods were requred with plain bearings.    Those of you who want to know how mine was constructed can head over to that thread, I won't sully this fine one with that!   Love the explaination drawing Mike! 
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: cnr6400 on November 22, 2022, 12:58:25 AM
Just an FYI - One other possible source for hollow cylinders for crank pins in this type of built up crank - the humble drill bushing, as used in production machining fixtures to guide twist drills. The bsuhings are very hard steel usually and are made very accurately inside and out, and are available in a huge variety of sizes. McMaster Carr link to a page of metric ones is below. Inch sizes also available in a huge variety. Some are available in stainless steel should you need that.

https://www.mcmaster.com/drill-bushings/metric-press-fit-drill-bushings-9/

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on November 22, 2022, 07:48:30 AM
Thanks for the additional info cnr6400, it may help someone else following down the Schillings built up crankshaft route.

I just wish we had access to McMaster Carr from this side of the pond

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: cnr6400 on November 22, 2022, 06:35:37 PM
Yep, McMaster Carr is a great resource. There may be a UK based drill bushing supplier, might be worth a Google search for jig and fixture components, toolroom supplies, or just drill bushings UK.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: wirralcnc on November 22, 2022, 08:13:42 PM
https://www.boneham.co.uk/drill-bushes/
Try these. Used these several times for work. Fast delivery reasonably priced.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on November 22, 2022, 08:36:34 PM
Some details of my Schilling, built-up, Crankshaft

Thank you all, Steamer, cnr6400 and wirralcnc for the information on drill bushes and shaft liners. This information may be use to someone else who may be considering the Schilling built-up crankshaft route.

For my W165 engine, I am using roller mains and roller big-ends just like the original engine. So I do not actually need drill bushes or shaft liners, (although I did once consider a different crankshaft construction which could have used them). However the information you kindly provided may be of use to other multi cylinder engine builders.

This is the crankshaft construction I used for the W165

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/CRANK2.jpg)

Thanks again

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on November 23, 2022, 01:24:02 PM
We got a bit sidetracked there with drill bushes and shaft liners as neither Steamer or I use them.

So back to the plot. I have completed a trial assembly of the second crankshaft to ensure everything fits. It does, so the second crankshaft can be set asside for a while. I will take it apart again over the winter, when it's too cold to go outside to the shed, give it a final polish and then assemble it into the second engine.

Here is the crankshaft laid out with all it's individual parts flying in close formation. There are 44 parts laid out on that table.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1052smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1055smal.JPG)


Then, ten minutes later, the whole crankshaft has been all bolted together.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1058smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1064smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1087smal.JPG)


And of course, Crash wanted to get in there for a closer look

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1080smal.JPG)


The Mercedes Benz W165, was in 1939, very much a 'state of the art' racing engine. Most racing engines of the 1930's era used roller bearings for both the main and conrod bearings. The were expensive to produce. The big end bearings tended to be quite large and bulky, therefore needed larger counterweights, which in turn needed a larger, bulkier, crankcase to contain the rotating parts.

'Thin wall' shell bearing came of age during the 1940/1950's and have have since become the norm for both domestic road and racing cars. The use of these high performance plain bearings allows for more compact bottom end design. You can see from the excellent Porsche 917 (1968) being built by Steamer, just how much the 'state of the art'  developed over the intervening 30 years.


Now the two crankshafts are done, I need to think about whats next.

Cheers

Mike


Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: cnr6400 on November 23, 2022, 01:57:15 PM
Great work Mike!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: crueby on November 23, 2022, 02:12:12 PM
Thats a great view with all the parts laid out like that!   :NotWorthy:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: RReid on November 23, 2022, 03:10:18 PM
Thanks for that series of photos, Mike. Seeing the parts all laid out like that, following by the assembled shots, makes the whole deal so much easier to understand than staring at drawings, no matter how well done. Besides, the finished assembly is just so pretty! I also very much enjoy the bits of background history and context.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Kim on November 23, 2022, 05:36:31 PM
Let me share my appreciation for those pictures too!  The exploded view and the assembled view - very nice!

That's incredible that you could assemble it in 10 minutes!  It would take me WAY longer than that to assemble the parts!  You're fast!

Kim
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: gadabout on November 23, 2022, 08:51:23 PM
Mr Vixen!
Looks superb!
Can it be inserted into the crankcases as is ? Or will you need to pull it apart and assemble it together inside the cases like the first one?
Mark
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on November 23, 2022, 09:36:10 PM
Like Kim - I think it would take me longer to assemble (at least the first number of times) ...!!!

Love the 'Sequence Photos'  :Love:        :cheers:

Per
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on November 24, 2022, 01:22:54 PM
Thank you all for looking in and for calling in.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: Your support is always appreciated.

Kim, Per, Mark, assembling the crankshaft may be easier than you imagine. There are only nine bolts to tighten, five on the main bearing centre line and four more on the big end bearing centre line. The dowel pins look after the alignment of each part.

In theory, it should be possible to simply lift the five main bearing caps and drop the crankshaft in place. However, I have found it was necessary to select the thickness of the four spacer shim washers to ensure the crank fits comfortable between the main bearing caps. it's all very tight in there, typically 10 thou either side of the caps.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1094smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1043smal.JPG)

Cheers   :cheers:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Art K on November 25, 2022, 07:34:06 PM
Mike,
I have taken the holiday to get caught up on some reading and got caught up on your build. Amazing work on the crank build! I will have to file this away in case I have he opportunity to use it on a future build.
Art
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on November 25, 2022, 09:24:24 PM
Happy holiday Art !!

The Schilling built-up crankshaft, using the intrinsic accuracy of commercial roller bearings for alignment, has a lot to commend it. It does appear to be a great way to build a long, slender, multi cylinder crankshaft. Provided you carry out the machining operations accurately, the final assembly is a quick and simple bolt together process. It eliminates the distortion uncertainties that you get from a billet crank, as it stress relieves itself post machining, or the distortion that inevitable results from a brazed/ welded fabrication.

The 'all roller' bearing (qty 12) crankshaft on my (V8) W165 requires more bolted sections than the roller/ plain bearing crankshaft in Steamer's (V12) Porsche 917 crankshaft. Dave was able to join pairs of his crank-webs with a hardened steel big-end shafts. This significantly reduced the number of components which need to be bolted together. Which can only be a good thing to do.

Our two crankshaft designs are quite different to look at; due entirely to the requirements of the individual engine we are copying. However, they both make full use of the teachings of Hubert Schillings in his book  "Boxer-, Reihen- und V-Motoren als Modell".

At one time, you could download a copy from   https://www.dropbox.com/sh/q8ijzp3h7kqr3fs/AAA_-bbREnB6pBcNP9EZXT1za?dl=0     it may still be there. The text is in German but the drawings contain all the detail.

OOPs, I just checked. It looks like the file has been deleted.   :'( :'(

Cheers   :cheers:

Mike

 

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Art K on November 26, 2022, 05:40:45 AM
Mike,
Apparently I jumped on that book when I saw it on line as I do have it as a PDF. My in laws were in from eastern Pennsylvania and we spent most of this week converting the storage room to a bedroom. Storage means stuff that moved in when we bought the house and has been stored ever since. Some of wha came out is gone most won't return.
Art
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on December 06, 2022, 08:42:35 PM
Oil Pump Pipework

It's been a busy week in Vixen's Den. Lots done.

The second crankshaft, final assembly, has been completed. No new photos to add.

For the next major task, I decided to go back to pick up were I left off with the lubrication system pipework (way back in reply #375 to #377). All the oil pipes, and there are a lot of them, had been cut and bent to size, but had not been soldered together. Back then, I was quite happy to avoid that job, as  I was not sure how I would do the pipe soldering. A small, needle flame, gas blow lamp; perhaps? That did not feel quite right somehow. I could foresee all sort of problems with overheating and burned, oxidised surfaces, as I knew there would be quite a number of re-heats required.

The components and semiconductor chips, on modern circuit boards, no longer use the old fashioned soldering iron; instead they are flow soldered or hot air soldered to the circuit boards. So why not try to use a powerful hot air gun to solder together the oils pipes on the W165 engine?

I have a powerful (1800 Watt) thermostatically controlled hot air gun, capable of reaching 600*C, made by Leister in Switzerland. I has a number of alternative nozzles, including a very fine jet nozzle. 60/40 solder is made of 60% tin and 40% lead and has a melting point of around 190°C. Soldering Iron tip temperatures of at least 300°C are recommended. My heat gun can be adjusted to that temperature. I also have a supply of water soluble soldering flux, which makes post opp cleaning up dead easy without the need for solvent baths etc.

Here's the equipment:

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1133smal.JPG)



The pipes needed to be soldered in situ. Obviously, the aluminium crankcase and oil pump body would create an enormous heat sink. Some sort of temporary insulation would be required between the copper and brass oil pipe parts and the aluminium engine parts. I decided to try thin card (my old business cards) between the smaller pipe flanges. For the larger oil pump end manifold, I removed one of the pump sections and replaced it with a wooden spacer of the same thickness.


Here you can see the first soldering opp. I started with the five main bearing pipes soldered into the oil pump end manifold. I found I needed to set the heat gun to 400*C to quickly heat the parts. The thin solder wire was applied into the work and when it was hot enough, capillary action drew the solder deep into the joint. You can see the wooden insulation spacer in the pump, became chard.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1138smal.JPG)




My second opp was to attach the four of the five flanges to the end of the thin main bearing feed pipes. Thin business card was used as the insulation, it could have done with being better; a lot of heat was lost.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1141smal.JPG)



Opp 3 and 4, soldered the flanges to the larger pipes connecting through the crankcase walls and the front scavenge filter bowl. Thin business card was again used as the insulation.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1142smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1143smal.JPG)



The fifth and final soldering opp, was to solder the three large diameter pipes into the oil pump end manifold. These joints were done one at a time and clearly show the advantage of doing solder fabrications with a heat gun. The adjacent joints did not get burned or oxidised, the solder joints could be made much neater than with a flame. also it was easier to re heat a joint, if required, to ensure full penetration was achieved.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1119smal.JPG)



Then the whole pipework assembly could be unbolted from the engine, the various insulation materials discarded before the flux residues were quickly cleaned off in hot water. Each joint was inspected and cleaned up where necessary.

Here is the finished pipework assembly


(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1129smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1130smal.JPG)



Stay tuned, there is more to follow

Mike



Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: crueby on December 06, 2022, 08:46:08 PM
Thats pretty impressive work!  I've never heard of a heat gun like that, very interesting heat source for the soldering.

The pipework looks a little like a tuba for an octopus, or a steampunk bagpipe!
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on December 06, 2022, 08:58:42 PM
Thats pretty impressive work!  I've never heard of a heat gun like that, very interesting heat source for the soldering.


The Leister heat gun is a serious bit of kit (1800 Watts, 600*C). It kinda followed me home from work, when I retired. I gets used quite a lot, this is it's first attempt at solder fabrication.

Cheers   :cheers:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on December 06, 2022, 10:28:20 PM
Great progress + result  Mike  :ThumbsUp:

I'm sorry for feeling that there's a flange 'missing' in the right side of the picture - but I think you would have mentioned it, if that is the case ....  :noidea:

The whole bit of 'Machine assembled PCB's' in our production is done with Reflow and we have one for prototyping too + a 'ReWork Station' - but I haven't used a 'Normal' HeatGun for soldering yet ....  :thinking:

If it was the Full Size Merchedes - I wouldn't have dreamed of using soft-solder - but I'm guessing that in the Model, it will never be hot enough for problems ....

Per             :cheers:
Title: Q
Post by: steamer on December 06, 2022, 11:01:30 PM
I like that a lot Mike.   Question, is the oil flow to the mains "around" the bearings?  or "Through" the bearings?

Dave
Title: Re: Q
Post by: Vixen on December 07, 2022, 05:35:52 PM
Thank you Chris, Per and Dave for calling in. It's good to know that someone out there is still following this thread.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:



I like that a lot Mike.   Question, is the oil flow to the mains "around" the bearings?  or "Through" the bearings?

Dave

Dave,     Mist lubrication will always allow a roller bearing to spin easier and faster than a roller bearing filled with oil. For that reason, the lube oil supplied by a small low pressure pump, is discharged close to each the main bearing, not directly into them. The oil is immediately atomised into a fine mist, by the rotating crankshaft and rods. Two scavenge pumps, one at the front and another to the rear of the sump (oil pan) suck up any liquid oil than forms.


Great progress + result  Mike  :ThumbsUp:

I'm sorry for feeling that there's a flange 'missing' in the right side of the picture - but I think you would have mentioned it, if that is the case ....  :noidea:

The whole bit of 'Machine assembled PCB's' in our production is done with Reflow and we have one for prototyping too + a 'ReWork Station' - but I haven't used a 'Normal' HeatGun for soldering yet ....  :thinking:

If it was the Full Size Merchedes - I wouldn't have dreamed of using soft-solder - but I'm guessing that in the Model, it will never be hot enough for problems ....

Per             :cheers:

Per,  Well spotted. I have not yet soldered on the fifth flange. That one feeds the oil to the rearmost bearing cap; the one which supports the oil pump assembly. There is still some more work required in this area, before I can do that.

The development wiring shop, where I used to work, developed a technique to remove/replace surface mount chips using a similar hot air gun.

As for the use of soft solder; The 'Silver Arrows' of the 1930's were an interesting mix of the newest engine technology (for that era) mixed with some antiquated methods. Have a look at the two photos below of the original, full size engine, specially designed and built to win the 1939 Tripoli Grand Prix and lots of prize money. You would think they had hired the local village plumber to soft solder all the oil pipework. You can almost hear him pumping up his two pint kerosene blowlamp.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/2867_1292BOl__small.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/2867_229_2Bulpumpe_Verrohrung_rechtssmal.JPG)



Here is my 1/3 scale version of those two photos:

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1120smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1122smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1127smal.JPG)



And a view of the second engine. the crankshaft is not yet installed


(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1148smal.JPG)



Thats pretty impressive work!  I've never heard of a heat gun like that, very interesting heat source for the soldering.

The pipework looks a little like a tuba for an octopus, or a steampunk bagpipe!


Chris, don't get him going. I told Crash it is a lube-oil-pipe-a-phone. He is happily learning to play it and wants to be become a one man 'Oompah Band'.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1136smal.JPG)



Cheers     :cheers:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Kim on December 07, 2022, 05:56:41 PM
Just beautiful work, Mike, as always!

And I love the picture of Crash playing his lube-oil-pipe-a-phone!  That's classic  :lolb:

Kim
Title: Re: Q
Post by: crueby on December 07, 2022, 07:03:34 PM
...
Thats pretty impressive work!  I've never heard of a heat gun like that, very interesting heat source for the soldering.

The pipework looks a little like a tuba for an octopus, or a steampunk bagpipe!


Chris, don't get him going. I told Crash it is a lube-oil-pipe-a-phone. He is happily learning to play it and wants to be become a one man 'Oompah Band'.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1136smal.JPG)



Cheers     :cheers:

Mike
:ROFL:    :lolb:   

Perfection!!

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Laurentic on December 07, 2022, 10:31:36 PM
Re Reply#822 - second sentence: I'm still following along, just not very vocal Mike.  As usual, am in admiration.

Chris
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: cnr6400 on December 08, 2022, 12:18:19 AM
I was wondering if Crash would have a go at gettin a tune outa that assembly!  :Lol:
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: gadabout on December 08, 2022, 05:07:37 AM
I’m always following anything that’s has Mr Vixens name on it!! Your work mesmerises  me!!! I don’t usually comment because I’m alway speechless….
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on December 08, 2022, 09:32:31 AM
That's some splendid plumbing  :praise2:  :praise2: A very complicated system with too many possible failure points under vibration  ::)
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Laurentic on December 08, 2022, 11:34:01 AM
Out of interest I did check out the Leister Heat Gun, maybe add it to the "someday wish list" - but it's price is way above my pay grade! 

It did lead me into thinking maybe convert the usual DIY electric hot air gun used for paint stripping - a thought that lasted all of about half a second or so when it's operating temperature was factored in.  Sadly for me, its back to the gas blow torch!

Totally agree with Roger re "That's some splendid plumbing" but - absolutely!

Chris
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on December 08, 2022, 04:10:16 PM
Ok   now I get it    that is the same approach I'm taking on my build.   At least for the rod  mains and gears

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on December 08, 2022, 05:17:35 PM
A little more history. The designer of the M165

Thank you all for calling in and providing so much encouragement, far too many to name individually.

Ok   now I get it    that is the same approach I'm taking on my build.   At least for the rod  mains and gears

Dave

Dave, that's not surprising as we are both taking a very similar route with our Schilling style built up crankshafts.



That's some splendid plumbing  :praise2:  :praise2: A very complicated system with too many possible failure points under vibration  ::)

Roger, I totally agree with you about the over complicated pipework and potential failure points. The choice of soft soldered copper/brass pipework seems an odd choice, given the materials ability to work-harden, potentially leading to enbrittalment and fatigue cracking.

A look at some more history from the 1930,s era may give a clue to how this could have happened.

Hitler was a keen on motor racing, More correctly, he was obsessed with power, winning and the propaganda derived from displays of German engineering might. Under his instruction, the State provided huge financial support to both Mercedes Benz and Auto Union in terms of direct funding, grants and lucrative military contracts. In return he wanted/ demanded success on the race track to demonstrate his strength to the world. This success he duly received. The Mercedes and Auto Union 'Silver Arrows' cars, became an unbeatable force and totally dominated Grand Prix racing throughout the 1930's

The 1930 was also an era of rapid technical advancement and also an era where one man, usually the chief design engineer could rise to control the whole of a companies engineering activities. Design was lead by the one man 'he who must be obeyed' rather than by a team of specialist engineers. You can see this in the way Roy Feddon lead the design of Bristol aero engines. How Dr Ferdinand Porsche lead the design of the Auto Union race cars. How Rudolf Uhlenhaut did the same at Mercedes Benz

The huge amounts of state funding and the absolute need to win on the race track, placed great pressure on the shoulders of the company designers. The Silver Arrows quickly became the dominant force totally eclipsing the opposition. The sports governing body, the A.I.A.C.R. (forerunner of today's FIA) did what they could to cut back the dominance of the German cars,  by issuing ever more restrictive technical requirements, every two years or so (usually by reducing engine capacity), in an attempt to reduce the engine power and to try to level the playing field. It made little difference, because big funding and huge resources will always find a way.

At Mercedes Benz, Rudolf Uhlenhaut was under tremendous pressure. Trying to satisfy his lords and masters demands for more and more track success, at the same time having to respond the every technical capacity rule change with a new engine design, while at the same time pushing technological advances as fast as possible. Money, however,  was never and obstacle. By 1938/9 his GP engines sported two stage compound superchargers pumping an exotic chemical cocktail of volatile fuel into the engine an unbelievable pressure of 2.6 Bar. That was a lot of work to ask of one man. While concentrating hard on these technical advances, some basic parts of the design were perhaps neglected and left unchanged. "We have always done it that way, so no need to change". I guess that why the Mercedes obsession for multiple oil pumps (7 on the W165) and external plumbing and the hand welded fabricated cylinder blocks
(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/15591328_1368411676536638_1899407223159042440_o~0.jpg)

were carried over with each successive engine design, all the way through from the SLK cars of the late 1920's all the way through to the Fangio's W196 of the 1950's. Also why Ferdinand Porsche insisted on using  the same swing arm suspension design in the VW Beetle (Peoples Car) as well as the Auto Union race cars. Reasonably safe in the VW but potentially lethal in a 700 HP race car if you lifted off the throttle, mid corner.

Sometimes the technology race and the 'one man band' approach can maybe blind side the designers to the some of the more fundamental, basic design weaknesses. There is a lot to be said for devolving the design responsibility to a team of specialist engineers rather than a single voice 'who must be obeyed'.

The MB Silver Arrows were all tremendously fast but fragile, they lacked reliability; many cars would brake down and fail to reach the finish line. However the huge State funding helped there as well. Mercedes would often enter four or sometime five cars for a single Grand Prix. If the lead car, usually the MB star driver Rudi Caracciola, suffered a technical failure and retired, the team manager would call in the next leading MB car and  Caracciola would take over the drive and try to regain the lead of the race the race.

How times change!!



Out of interest I did check out the Leister Heat Gun, maybe add it to the "someday wish list" - but it's price is way above my pay grade! 

It did lead me into thinking maybe convert the usual DIY electric hot air gun used for paint stripping - a thought that lasted all of about half a second or so when it's operating temperature was factored in.  Sadly for me, its back to the gas blow torch!

Totally agree with Roger re "That's some splendid plumbing" but - absolutely!

Chris

Chris,  The Leister air gun is no ordinary run of the mill paint stripper or heat shrink gun, it is a serious weapon, with a purpose. it's uncanny to see The invisable hot air jet burn a hole through a sheet of paper or card, or set fire to a piece of timber, or melt solder.

Cheers    :cheers:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Twizseven on December 08, 2022, 05:40:46 PM
Mike,
You are making a fantastic job of that engine.  The pipework is amazing.

The history lesson is fascinating. 

Colin
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on December 08, 2022, 05:50:51 PM
Thank you Colin,

I am trying to record some of that exciting bygone era, both in metal, and some of the history in these pages. Pleased you enjoy the history as well as the build.

Cheers   :cheers:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Laurentic on December 08, 2022, 07:34:19 PM
Mike - the comment re Leister heat gun v DIY paint stripper heat gun was made rather tongue-in-cheek, certainly no way a serious suggestion.  Me just being whimsical!

Loved your discourse on F1 in the 1930's.   Just reading Calum E Douglas's "The Secret Horsepower Race", describing the fighter aero engine development in Britain, USA and Germany immediately before and during WW2.  Only about an 1/8th of the way through - its a very big book with very small print - but everything you said about firms being dominated by one man "who must be obeyed" is there too.  Very interesting book and makes one realise how much we take for granted today, re fuel octanes, special metals, engine technology, etc., etc., was so cutting edge back then, being learned very much the hard way with no computers to do endless calcs either, although the methodology was the same as todays calcs.  Interestingly, much of what was learnt then is still in use today and in todays F1 engines.  Well worth the read.

Chris
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on December 08, 2022, 08:49:49 PM

Today's F1,  (Formula One) motor racing has its roots in the European Grand Prix championships of the 1920s and 1930s,  the  modern Formula One began in 1946 with the FIA (Fédération Internationale de l'Automobile) assumed control and standardisation of the technical rules, which was followed by a World Championship of Drivers in 1950.  The old style Grand Prix racing was just that; a race for the big cash prize.

One of the enduring Mercedes myths and legends, states that the 1.5 litre W165 was designed and built in just 8 months just to compete in the 1939 Triploi Grand Prix (really BIG prize money and kudos for that race). Back then, Tripoli was an Italian province and the Italians attempted to side step the Silver Arrows dominance by changing the technical regulations to 1.5 litre, voiturette (small car) rules at the very last moment.  I hardly think that was possible for MB to design a race winning car in such a short timescale. The truth is that the GP technical regulations were likely to change from 3.0 litre supercharged  to 1.5 litre supercharged engines in 1940 or 1941 anyway. Unfortunately, world events prevented that from happening.  Mercedes Benz had probably already started doing their homework sometime before the decision to do the Tripoli race.

When motor racing resumed in 1946 the F1 regulations specified the anticipated 1.5 litre supercharged engines and the older Italian 1.5 litre (voiturette) cars had a field day. The MB W165 would have been eligible but MB were in no fit state to participate. Interestingly, the W165 design was thoroughly investigated and reported by the British Intelligence service. The rear mounted, combined gearbox and differential design from the W165 found it's way into the rear of the amazing 1.5 litre BRM V16. It's engine reportedly capable of producing up to 600HP; but it was so unreliable, it never achieved a full race distance.

Cheers

Mike



Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: cnr6400 on December 08, 2022, 09:26:00 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
All fascinating stuff guys!
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Laurentic on December 08, 2022, 09:39:15 PM
"The Secret Horsepower Race" also available from www.mortonsbooks.co.uk (according to an ad in Model Engineering Workshop magazine) priced £35 but the code "FLASH20" still works to get 20% off until 31/12/22. Santa - are you there?

Chris
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Kim on December 08, 2022, 11:23:32 PM
Mike,
You are making a fantastic job of that engine.  The pipework is amazing.

The history lesson is fascinating. 

Colin
Yes! I agree on all points!  Really enjoyed the history lesson!
And you're doing a fantastic job on the engine!

Kim
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: jcge on December 09, 2022, 12:45:01 AM
Mike - your work is simply breathtaking !!!
John
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Laurentic on December 09, 2022, 10:33:17 AM
Ha ha Mike - sounds like you have a very good relationship with Santa and have Santa on speed-dial if Santa is already on the case! 

Enjoy!

Chris
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Michael S. on December 09, 2022, 12:36:52 PM
Hi Mike, thanks for the historical background on the engine. Racing hasn't really interested me so far, but your model engine is simply the very high school of model making!

I know shiny silver racing cars from the Transport Museum in Dresden. But only built after 1945 by the Eisenacher Automobil Werke. One wanted to continue with great successes with two-stroke engines.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Michael S. on December 09, 2022, 02:14:06 PM
Sorry, I didn't mean the EMW R 3 with two-stroke engines but the Wartburg RS 1000, which was built a little later.

Michael
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on January 08, 2023, 11:54:28 AM
Oil feed pipework to the rear main bearing cap

I have not managed to do a lot of engine building in the last month, with the Christmas break and all. Instead, I needed to concentrate my efforts on re-waterproofing the walls of my outside garage workshop. One side of the workshop is below ground level and the brickwork had become porous, letting in puddles of ground water. The offending wall could be considered as a cellar wall and there are waterproofing cement products (cement tanking) available to seal cellar walls. A thick layer of the cement tanking is applied to the walls, like a layer of plaster. When set, it forms an impervious waterproof barrier. The only problem with a small garage workshop is the benches and machinery are inevitably placed against the walls and need to be shifted to give access for the repair work.

Returning to the Mercedes engine. While assembling the crankshaft, I had discovered a drawing error. The flange for the rearmost main bearing oil pipe was vertically orientated and clashed with the rotating crankshaft webs. The pipe flange needed to be rotated through 90* to give sufficient clearance to allow the crankshaft to rotate. The only problem was the oil pumps were now in the way.     :ThumbsDown:

The whole oil pump assembly had to be removed and disassembled, to allow a small scallop to be machined in one corner of two of the pump sections, to accommodate the re-positioned main bearing oil pipe flange. The old mounting holes were filled with threaded aluminium rod and filed flat and smooth. Here you can see the modified pump assembly and the un-terminated feed pipe to the rear bearing cap.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1172smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1173smal.JPG)


Here you can see the pipe flange, now positioned horizontally being soldered to the feed pipe. Again, I used my 1800 Watts hot air gun to heat the pipework and flange. The thin card under the pump assembly and flange prevents the heat from soaking away too quickly

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1174smal.JPG)


The final two images show the finished pipe flange and oil pump assembly in position on the rear bearing cap and again in position on the assembled engine. It's all very tightly packed in there.   :noidea:

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1175smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1176smal.JPG)


That's one more small step successfully completed.  :thinking: Um, I will need to do something about replacing those cap head screws with studs and nuts, sometime.

This engine build is like eating a huge elephant, The only way to do it is one spoonful at a time.

Cheers   :cheers:

Mike

(http://)

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on January 08, 2023, 12:52:06 PM
Nice save Mike.   With builds like this, it's tough to be sure of everything till there's hardware in front of you.     The talent comes when you do find the inevitable, and how you deal with it.    And you did so gracefully.

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on January 08, 2023, 01:10:52 PM
That's a lot of extra work but a good fix  :)
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: RReid on January 08, 2023, 04:07:08 PM
Quote
This engine build is like eating a huge elephant, The only way to do it is one spoonful at a time.
As long as you enjoy the taste it's all good, right? Nice solution to that bit of gristle, very glad it didn't cause major indigestion. :cheers:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on January 08, 2023, 07:29:37 PM
Water in the Shop is never nice  :wallbang:  - so that goes to the top of priorities (or close) ....
I hope that this is solved to your satisfaction.

Bummer - but a great Save  :ThumbsUp:

Have you got it all back together to see if that completely solved it (rotating the Crank in situ) ?

Per            :cheers:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Kim on January 08, 2023, 08:15:09 PM
Great saves - both on the water leakages in the shop and on the interference problem.  :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:

You got to spend lots of quality time disassembly and reassembling!  :Lol:

Kim
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Art K on January 08, 2023, 09:00:14 PM
Mike,
It's always good to hear of progress even when it's one step back to get the two forward. Better to catch the out of place oil line earlier than later! Water in the shop is never fun, nor is shifting the shop around to fix it! Keep up the good work!
Art
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Brendon M on January 09, 2023, 06:57:06 AM
Still a work of art regardless :praise2:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on January 09, 2023, 02:06:04 PM
Thanks everyone for looking and also for calling in. Your feedback is always welcome and provides the encouragement to post more stuff

Per, you are quite right. A flood in the workshop, really focuses the mind and it goes to the very top of the priority list.  My work with the cement tanking seems to have worked; we had a heavy downpour yesterday to give it a good test.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

All the bearing caps and oil pipework have been reassembled. The crankshaft is now free to turn. It turns straight and true and drives the four overhead camshaft smoothly without any lumps and bumps. I use a small electric screwdriver to turn over the engine at about 60RPM; which is slow enough to see things happening. Any faster and the gears become a blur.


(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1184smal.JPG)



The next spoonful on the build 'do list', is the gear drive from the crankshaft to the oil pump assembly. This work will include the pump's internal gears. There are five pairs of pump gears in that pump assembly, two pressure and three scavenger pumps; each pair being a different width to the others. Sounds like another excellent opportunity to get things mixed up.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1188smal.JPG)

Stay tuned

Mike

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: fumopuc on January 09, 2023, 02:23:09 PM
Hi Mike,
if I see these pictures is does not reminds at an model engine.
It is a so realistic view, that it could be a big one too.


 
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on January 09, 2023, 02:48:12 PM
Hi Mike,
if I see these pictures is does not reminds at an model engine.
It is a so realistic view, that it could be a big one too.

Thank you Achim,

I am trying reproduce the full size engine in miniature as accurately as possible, without too many simplifications.

At 1/3 scale the model engine is really only a small, big one   :Lol: :Lol: :Lol:


Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on January 11, 2023, 10:44:26 PM
Gear Drive to the Oil Pump Assembly

The next item on the build 'do list', is the gear drive from the crankshaft to the oil pump assembly. This comprised a compound (two gear) gear between the crankshaft gear and the pump input gear. The oil pumps are driven at approximately half crankshaft speed

I started by making the gear blanks for the larger of the compound gear pair. The OD and the ID were turned / bored concentrically to the finished size over a length sufficient to make three gears. That's two for the engines and a third just in case. I found there was enough material prepared to make four gear blanks. I now have a choice of four blanks.

Next, the shallow recess was machined into the front face of the blank. The gear blank was then partially parted off, to the correct face width. My insert tip parting tool could only plunge to part depth, so I had to use a hacksaw to remove each of the embryo gear blanks from the stock.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1190smal.JPG)


When all the blanks had been removed from the stock; they were each mounted in the three jaw chuck, using parallels to ensure the rear face was dead square. They were faced off to the correct tooth width and the matching shallow recess was machined into the rear face.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1191smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1192smal.JPG)


The blanks were then transferred to another three jaw chuck on the milling machine to enable the lightening holes to be machined and drilled.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1201smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1202smal.JPG)


That completes the gear blank preparation to the larger (43 tooth) of the compound gear.

Stay tuned

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: vtsteam on January 12, 2023, 01:19:25 AM
It's a fabulous machine. Mind boggling to me! Tremendous dedication.   :NotWorthy:  :NotWorthy: :popcorn:

I do share one experience however, an outside shop built into a hill with one wall below ground level. Come spring I battle the leaks. I've raised the concrete floor twice so far to try to combat it, I'll have to try "cement tanking" next.

The gear blanks are beautiful in themselves. 
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Zephyrin on January 12, 2023, 06:49:47 PM
Quote
My insert tip parting tool could only plunge to part depth, so I had to use a hacksaw to remove each of the embryo gear blanks from the stock.
no kidding ? I can do that too...
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on January 13, 2023, 06:52:42 PM
Thanks for looking in.

Steve, If you decide to try the 'cement tanking', it's best to abrade the old brickwork/ concrete first to give a fresh clean surface. The brickwork does not have to be dry.

Zephyrin,  Ha ha,  :Lol:  With a parting tool that can only plunge 10mm max, so with 40mm diameter stock the only real option is to use the hacksaw for the final bit.  :embarassed:


Some more progress in Vixen's den. Three more gear blanks have been prepared. These are for the 33 tooth on the end of the oil pump shaft

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1206smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1207smal.JPG)


Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: cnr6400 on January 13, 2023, 07:07:11 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: crueby on January 13, 2023, 07:40:21 PM
Nice!!
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Kim on January 13, 2023, 11:40:31 PM
Those blanks look so nice!  I would have cut the teeth before going to the trouble of making them all beautiful!  But that's more of a reflection on my part reject rate than anything else!  :ROFL:

Beautiful work, as always, Mike!   :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on January 14, 2023, 10:38:34 AM
Those blanks look so nice!  I would have cut the teeth before going to the trouble of making them all beautiful!  But that's more of a reflection on my part reject rate than anything else!  :ROFL:
Kim

Hello Kim,

Yes, you are right. I would normally do all the functional features first, before adding the cosmetic stuff. However it was so much more convenient to hold the blank (without teeth) in a three jaw to poke the holes through.

As for the reject rate; I only need two of each type of gear, but have made a few 'extras', just in case. I can then chose the best for the engine. And by adding a leather cord or stainless wire loops to the leftovers, my granddaughter can have a steampunk pendant or a pair of earrings.   :lolb: :lolb:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Kim on January 14, 2023, 05:08:12 PM
As for the reject rate; I only need two of each type of gear, but have made a few 'extras', just in case. I can then chose the best for the engine. And by adding a leather cord or stainless wire loops to the leftovers, my granddaughter can have a steampunk pendant or a pair of earrings.   :lolb: :lolb:

Mike

Now THAT's thinking ahead!  :ROFL:

Kim
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on January 14, 2023, 06:18:23 PM
Stick a bearing and magnet in the middle then you can spin them on the fridge :LittleDevil:

So Mike it's been almost a week since you PM'd me, will you be posting the full 3D assembly renderings tomorrow :stickpoke: how are you finding F360?
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jo on January 14, 2023, 08:49:43 PM
Looking forward to seeing more of the bits of the engine coming together  8) (had enough of software and computers when I used to have to work for a living so please don't mess up a very interesting thread with it :facepalm2:)

Jo

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Art K on January 15, 2023, 02:20:03 AM
Mike,
Looks good as usual! Next time I do gears I'm going to try a small endmill and a program in the mill.
Art
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 24, 2023, 08:43:43 PM
The Overhead Camshafts

Hello Again,

It's been a while, and some of you may have noticed a lack of progress with my Mercedes Benz Grand Prix engine build. What with the workshop flooding in early January followed by my shoulder injury, I have not been active in the workshop so far this year. Fortunately the weather is improving and I have improved shoulder mobility, so I have am now able to get back into the workshop for short spells.

Rather than pick up where I left off with the oil Pump gear train; I though to progress the four overhead camshafts. Here is a photo of the full size engine with two of the cambox covers removed, so you can visualise what I am aiming to achieve.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/shafts_smal.JPG)
 

As you can see, there are four overhead camshafts, two exhaust camshafts and two inlet camshafts.  Each cylinder has four valves, therefore there are two identical cams for each cylinder and there are four cylinders in each bank i.e. eight cams per camshaft. Wow that going to be a lot of cams. Each camshaft being divided into two halves by the central bearing block.

For the model engine, I intend to make sleeves with integral cams and attach these to the existing 7.0mm shafts. That's eight half length cam sleeves for each engine. The cam sleeves are to be machined from silver steel (drill rod), hardened and polished. The sleeves will be pinned to the shafts in the correct angular position when complete.

Stay tuned

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: RReid on February 24, 2023, 09:52:19 PM
Yayy! So glad you're getting out in the shop again Mike. Can't wait to see how you do your cams!
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on February 24, 2023, 10:18:52 PM
Same approach I'm going to take Mike   glad to hear you're in the shop!
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: cnr6400 on February 25, 2023, 12:12:22 AM
Great to hear your shoulder's on the mend. Look forward to your cam work!  :cheers:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: crueby on February 25, 2023, 12:31:55 AM
Great to hear you are on the mend. That engine is incredible, so much detail in them, the sounds of the original must have been amazing.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on February 25, 2023, 10:30:06 AM
Great to hear that you (and the shop) are mending  :LittleAngel:
And though Winter isn't completely over - we can at least sense the end of it + longer days  :whoohoo:

Continue to get better and best wishes Mike    :cheers:

Per
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 25, 2023, 11:01:51 AM
Thanks everyone, for calling in. I cannot tell you how good it feels to get back to making things again.

Chris, If you were expecting the original engine to make a deep rumbling sound, like your big V8 muscle cars; then you may be disappointed. The Mercedes Benz W165 was only a 1.5 litre V8, which created a rapid staccato noise, not unlike the tearing of calico cloth, only much louder.. If they were burning nitro benzine dope, the sound would be accompanied with the lingering odour of sweet almonds (marzipan). Unfortunately, or should that be fortunately, nitro benzine has been declared a toxic chemical and it's use, widely banned.

Cheers   :cheers:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on February 25, 2023, 11:37:00 AM
Glad you are getting back in the workshop again  :) Lots more fine workmanship to enjoy  :wine1:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 25, 2023, 01:20:06 PM
Thank you Roger,

The cam sleeves started life as a 1 metre length of 14mm dia silver steel (drill rod). The bar was sawn up into 17 pieces, 16 for the two sets of cam sleeve blanks and one spare, just in case. The first opps were to square the ends and to drill and ream the central hole 7mm diameter. This work was done on my Compact 5 lathe. The lathe tailstocks are the only things with handwheels in my workshop, everything else is moved by the numbers (CNC). So it felt like hard work to drill and ream the total distance of 1 metre by hand.

The individual cam disc blanks were then turned, using a thin insert parting tool. These parting inserts are very useful as you can plunge cut (as in parting tool) as well as turn horizontally (as in normal lathe tool); provided you keep the depth of cut reasonably shallow.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1232smal~1.JPG)



Here I am working slowly through the embryo cam sleeves forming the cam discs

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1226smal.JPG)


The cam sleeves for one engine.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1228smal~0.JPG)


The cam sleeves for both engines.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1227smal~0.JPG)



The final photo shows four of the cam sleeve blanks fitted in place inside a pair of cam boxes.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1231smal~0.JPG)


Next up will be the machining of the individual cams. But you will have to wait for the next installment from Vixen's Den.

Cheers   :cheers:

Mike

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on February 25, 2023, 02:51:09 PM
Love it Mike!    Keep it coming!   Are you going to do the Westbury turning g method?  Or CNC on the mill?
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: michelko on February 25, 2023, 03:19:48 PM
Awesome work, love that :cheers:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 25, 2023, 03:37:19 PM
..............Are you going to do the Westbury turning g method?  Or CNC on the mill?

Thank you Dave and Michel  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

The plan is to machine the cam profiles on the CNC mill. I will use my homemade 4th axis unit and machine the cam profiles from a table of A axis angles and Z axis heights.

Cheers  :cheers:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Kim on February 25, 2023, 04:18:45 PM
Impressive, as always, Mike.   :popcorn: :popcorn:

So how will the cam sleeves eventually be attached to the cam shaft?  And will the rotation of the cams on each of the sleeves the same?  I mean, I assume the ones on a single sleeve are different but is each sleeve interchangeable until it is fixed to a cam shaft?  (IC neophyte questions for sure.)

Kim
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 25, 2023, 04:39:12 PM
Impressive, as always, Mike.   :popcorn: :popcorn:

So how will the cam sleeves eventually be attached to the cam shaft?  And will the rotation of the cams on each of the sleeves the same?  I mean, I assume the ones on a single sleeve are different but is each sleeve interchangeable until it is fixed to a cam shaft?  (IC neophyte questions for sure.)

Kim

Hello Kim,

Each half cam sleeve carries the cams for two cylinders. The cam sleeves will be attached to the shafts by 1.5mm dowel pins backed up by loctite retainer. If only the cam layout were that simple.  :help:  Mercedes Benz saw fit to make a design where each pair of inlet and exhaust camshafts rotate in opposite directions; so each camshaft is unique, there are no repeats.  It's a bit of a nightmare and will need careful management.:shrug:

Cheers  :cheers:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Kim on February 25, 2023, 04:55:12 PM
Yikes!  Quite the machining nightmare!   I'm sure you're up to the task though, Mike!  Looking forward to watching you tackle this beast!
Kim
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Art K on February 26, 2023, 03:38:16 AM
Mike,
Good to see progress on the V8! Glad to also hear your shoulder is doing better. I busted up my left one about 10m years back, no fun in that.
Art
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 26, 2023, 12:09:46 PM
Thank you Art,

The truth is, we don't bounce as well as when we were kids and the repair process takes so much longer.

Cheers   :cheers:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 26, 2023, 01:34:45 PM
Other than drilling the pilot holes for the dowel pins and holding screw, the 16 camshaft sleeve blanks are complete and ready for the individual cam profiling stage.

However, before that can happen two very important questions must be answered:

1 What are the cam profiles going to be.

2 What are the angular positions of the individual cams on each camshaft. Cam timing


Cam Profile.

The illustration below shows the original Mercedes Benz cam profiles in yellow and my proposed cam profiles in red (exhaust) and blue (inlet). It is very obvious that Mercedes Benz designed very aggressive valve timing into their Grand Prix engine and my proposed cam profiles are much more conservative, as befits and engine which will only ever run on the bench and never expected to win a Grand Prix.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/CAM2.jpg)

If you look again at the yellow Mercedes cam profiles, you will observe the very high lift, long open duration and large overlap where both the inlet and exhaust valves are open. This aggressive valve timing together with four valves per cylinder ensured full filling and emptying of the combustion chamber by the high pressure compressor (supercharger), designed to cram as much fuel mixture into the engine as possible in a short space of time. The valve overlap period, where the both the inlet and exhaust valves are open, allows some of the incoming fuel mixture to flush the exhaust gasses from the cylinder as well as cooling the hot exhaust valves, at the expense of some lost fuel mixture.  .

None of these race consideration are relevant to a model engine running on the bench. I want and engine which starts easily, runs well and can idle well at a lowest RPM, unlike the full size engine which needs to be kept above 5000 Rpm just to stay alight and running. Therefore I have elected to use the very conservative cam profiles shown in red and blue in the diagram. I have used the same profile for both the inlet and exhaust valves. The chosen profiles being very similar to the Schilling and Westbury cam profiles and no doubt similar to those used a by many other model engines.



Cam timing (angular positions).

This was by far the most critical and time consuming part of the camshaft design process.

I start with some knowledge of the W165's design. The firing order is 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8 and the unusual rotation of the cam shafts where the inlet and exhaust cam shafts turn in opposite directions, with the camshaft rotation being in the opposite direction for the other bank of cylinders.

There was no existing design which remotely resembled this configuration so I was forced to draw a valve events valve events matrix, working from first principles. It was fairly straightforward but extremely tedious

I know the correct position and direction of rotation of the inlet and exhaust cams when cylinder #1 was at TDC FS (top dead centre firing stroke). This defines the position of the cylinder #1 cams on cam shafts #1 and #2. This was recorded on the valve events drawing.

The crankshaft rotates through 90 degrees every firing stroke in the order 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8. so when the crankshaft is rotated through the first 90 angle; cylinder #3 is now at TDC FS and the positions of the cylinder #3 cams on cam shafts #3 and #4 can recorded on the valve events drawing.

This process was repeated for all 8 cylinders and the camshaft positions are recorded on the valve events drawing.
 
It's a case of being very methodical and double checking each move and recording all the cam positions for every 90 degrees of crankshaft rotation.

The matrix of valve timing events was then used to create the master cam shaft timing diagram shown below


 (https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/ANGLES.jpg)

On the extreme right is a composite showing all the cams and their angular positions relative to each other and to the cylinder/ valve datum.
In the centre are shown the angular positions of the valves for each of the cam sleeves.
On the extreme left is a map of the cylinder and camshaft numbering system.

Each cam sleeve is unique to its intended position; so careful component marking and parts management will be required

Oh! what a tangled web we weave.  :help:

It's simple really !! what could go wrong ??

Mike

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Mike R on February 26, 2023, 01:52:47 PM
I love it Mike.  Absolutely the definition of model engineering on display.  In the above case reverse engineering.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: vtsteam on February 26, 2023, 03:03:20 PM
That's really interesting.  :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: Mike, what was the advantage for four unique camshafts driven in their differing respective directions? :popcorn: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 26, 2023, 03:39:38 PM
That's really interesting.  :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: Mike, what was the advantage for four unique camshafts driven in their differing respective directions? :popcorn: :cheers:

Hello Steve,
That's a very good question :thinking:

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/shafts_smal.JPG)


If you look carefully at this photo of the full size engine above, you will be able to make out the finger followers between the cams and the valve stems. The finger followers hinge points are on the inside of each pair of cam boxes. In order for the cams to strike the cam followers in an identical manner i.e. from the hinge side, the camshafts must rotate in opposite directions. The same is true for the opposite pair of camshafts.

One more point, If you look again at the yellow line, full size, cam profiles below, you will notice the cam lobes are not symmetrical. The slope on the leading edge, caters for the difference in lever arm distance on either side of each finger follower.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/CAM2.jpg)



It may generate better valve timing and movement but is a real pain when it comes to manufacture.

There is so much more to this than first meets the eye

Cheers   :cheers:

Mike

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Kim on February 26, 2023, 04:33:26 PM
That is really fascinating, Mike, and frighteningly complex!    :popcorn:

Kim
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 26, 2023, 04:36:51 PM
That is really fascinating, Mike, and frighteningly complex!    :popcorn:

Kim

Strange though it may sound Kim, the reversing valve gear under a steam loco baffles me.  :headscratch:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on February 26, 2023, 05:27:37 PM
That is really fascinating, Mike, and frighteningly complex!    :popcorn:

Kim

Strange though it may sound Kim, the reversing valve gear under a steam loco baffles me.  :headscratch:

Mike

Steam gear analysis is easy compared to this Mike......
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on February 26, 2023, 07:18:15 PM
Both IC and steam have their complexities, especially when you start looking at André Chapelon's work on steam.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andr%C3%A9_Chapelon

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on February 26, 2023, 07:54:21 PM
I think it could have many explanations - depending on where you start ....

So was it the Gear-Train for driving the Camshaft - the Link-Axle for the Finger-Followers (and me who thought that this was a newer invention  :Doh: ) or something completely different - that promted the rest to follow along oposite rotation  :noidea:

No matter - it will keep you on your Toes and your Wit sharp Mike  :mischief:

Per             :cheers:         :popcorn:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 26, 2023, 09:58:18 PM
Hello Per,

That could be an interesting debate. It's like asking "which came first; the chicken or the egg". Unfortunately, the guys who knew the answer are long gone.

We do know the W165 was designed and built in record time so there would have been great pressure in the drawing office to sign off the drawings.

If the cam gear drive train was agreed first, then the cam boxes, finger follower, and camshaft layout would need to have been designed accordingly.  However if the cam boxes and camshaft layouts were agreed first,. then the cam drive train would have to be designed later to give the required rotation directions.

Either way, the engine design is what it is and I am doing my best to make sense of it for my 1/3 scale miniature replica

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: vtsteam on February 26, 2023, 10:18:21 PM
Thanks Mike, I see.  :cheers:

I guess also they could be driven by two gears in direct mesh that way, without an intermediate. Interesting to try to follow along with the logic of things that were done.  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 26, 2023, 10:31:02 PM
Hello Steve,

You may have missed it, this is how the camshaft drive train is done. The four big gears turn the four camshafts in opposite directions.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_0592smal.JPG)

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: vtsteam on February 26, 2023, 10:47:14 PM
Heh, I did miss that one! :cheers:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: crueby on February 26, 2023, 11:53:59 PM
That picture is machionery porn!   Wow.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: RReid on February 27, 2023, 12:11:45 AM
That all makes the cams, cam timing, and cam drive of my own build look so simple in comparison I almost feel like I'm cheating. But only almost!
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on February 27, 2023, 12:54:59 AM
That is sweet work Mike!!   It's coming along really nicely!

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: vtsteam on February 27, 2023, 01:48:44 AM
The big gears turn two camshafts per bank in opposite directions, without an intermediate required to rotate them in the same direction was what I was thinking. But the photo is mind boggling because you see the two banks and all that is required to drive them. And the gears themselves look remarkable. Hard to believe this was worked out with such precision in such a compressed time frame. Truly amazing. It made me actually laugh to see it -- but a laugh of surprised amazement.  :NotWorthy: :NotWorthy: :NotWorthy: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: crueby on February 27, 2023, 02:48:24 AM
Does the oil system run oil down all those gears too?  Quite an amazing machine!
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: BillTodd on February 27, 2023, 03:14:40 PM
Quote
If you look carefully at this photo of the full size engine above, you will be able to make out the finger followers between the cams and the valve stems. The finger followers hinge points are on the inside of each pair of cam boxes. In order for the cams to strike the cam followers in an identical manner i.e. from the hinge side, the camshafts must rotate in opposite directions. The same is true for the opposite pair of camshafts.

Are the tappets adjusted with shims or are the followers on eccentrics?
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 27, 2023, 03:23:18 PM
All the cam sleeve blanks are prepared. The cam profile has been decided. The individual cam angular positions are decided.     Time to cut some metal.

I plan to machine the cam profiles on my EMCO F1 CNC mill using my home made 4th axis unit. Many of you will have seen my 4th axis unit before. It was made from a redundant mini lathe bed, using the head stock and tailstock. The old lathe motor was replaced with a big stepper. I can interchange the 3 jaw, 4 jaw and collet holder with my other EMCO Compact 5 mini lathe, which is very convenient.

I will machine the cam profiles as a series of 90 facets at 4 degree intervals and later blend them smooth by hand. The machine instructions (CNC code) are a long table of A axis angles and Z axis depths with Y axis moves to remove the material. The necessary information was extracted from the cam drawings and entered by hand.

Warning!! If you do this at home kiddies, remember to take the tangential Z axis value; shown on the right of the drawing below. If you use the spot height Z value shown on the left. you will undercut the cam and end up with a pointed and truncated cam profile.
How do I know??  :killcomputer:

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/CAMCUT.jpg)


Each cam sleeve blank is attached to the 7 mm diameter shaft, held between the collet and the tailstock, by a single  2.5 mm cap head.  The cutter is reposition above each blank cam disc, in turn, and the profile machined using the CNC code prepared earlier.

The cams are machined in pairs, two cams per cylinder. The A axis is then rotated through the appropriate angle and re-zeroed before the second pair of cams are profiled. My mill and 4th axis unit are quite lightly built, so the feeds and speeds need to be kept low. As a result, each cam takes about 15 minutes to profile.

Eventually I became comfortable with the process and could leave the machine unattended while it did it's stuff, retuning only to move the cutter to the next cam lobe and to replace the sleeve blanks.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1244smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1239smal.JPG)



Several days later, I had completed all sixteen cam sleeves (for the two engines) having profiled all 64 cams by cutting a total of 5760 facets leaving a large pile of chips. Thank heavens for the CNC assistance.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1247smal.JPG)


Note how each cam sleeve has been carefully marked, labelled  and attached to it's companion with string.


Here are some of the cam sleeves slid into position above the cylinders. The cam sleeves are only randomly positioned for now. Later I will harden and temper the sleeves and polish the cam surfaces before the final assembly and pinning the sleeves to the camshafts.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1250smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1252smal.JPG)


The cam shafts do not look too dissimilar to the original. I'm quite pleased with the result.

Another item crossed off the 'to do' list

Stay tuned

Mike  :cheers:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 27, 2023, 03:30:27 PM
Hello Chris and Bill

The camshaft drive train does not have any positive lubrication system, it relies on splash lubrication. There are small cups, caste in the rear of the case, to catch oil for the pinion bearings.

Bill, the tappet gap is adjusted by bucket shims over the valve stems. I an definitely NOT looking foreword to that bit

Cheers   :cheers:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on February 27, 2023, 04:02:26 PM
They came out great Mike  :ThumbsUp:

I'm slightly curious about why you wait until you have hardned and tempered the Cams - before you smoothen the surface ....
Is this because you expect those two processes to change the quality of the surface anyway - or ... :noidea:

Per        :cheers:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: cnr6400 on February 27, 2023, 04:07:09 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 27, 2023, 04:12:22 PM
Hello Per,
 
I have already started to 'smooth' the machine marks and facets using a sharp hand file. It's important to roll the file to follow the outside contour and not to file more flats. I will do this to all the cams (there is rather a lot to do!!) before the hardening and tempering. I expect some surface scaling, so I will re-polish the cam surfaces after the heat treatment.

Mike  :cheers:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: vtsteam on February 27, 2023, 05:39:14 PM
Mike, I have not tried this myself, just passing it on from Guy Lautard's Machinist's Bedside Reader, but he says household bar soap applied to the work before hardening reduces scaling. I should try it on scrap some time to compare, for my own curiosity's sake.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Kim on February 27, 2023, 05:44:52 PM
Wow, Mike!  A lot of work for those cams.  But they really look good in the engine!  Can't wait to see them doing their job.     :popcorn:

Kim
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: RReid on February 27, 2023, 08:51:05 PM
Mike, your work always leaves me with mouth agape (figuratively) in wonderment. :praise2:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: jcge on February 27, 2023, 10:06:24 PM
Magnificent work on those cams Mike.
Regards
John
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Art K on February 28, 2023, 04:23:50 AM
Mike,
That looks like a lot of work, and it looks great. When I did the cams on my Val single I worked out a program for the cam with 2 degree increments based on the CamCalc geometry. it took about 20 minutes per cam. Must admit my Tormach isn't delicate. Good to see how things are progressing. Yeah I wouldn't be looking forward to adjusting the valves either.
Art
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: petertha on February 28, 2023, 04:46:12 AM
Very nice Mike. What was the alloy you selected & did you do the hardening/tempering yourself?
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 28, 2023, 10:34:09 AM
Very nice Mike. What was the alloy you selected & did you do the hardening/tempering yourself?

Hello Peter
I have not got as far as the heat treatment yet  :embarassed:

I machined the cam sleeves from silver steel (drill rod) to BS-1407, that's more or less equivalent to you W1 tool steel. Machines well in the as delivered annealed state. Cherry red (770-790*C) and agitated quench in water to harden. A brine quench is harder. Reheat in sandbath to your preferred colour (temperature) then water quench to temper. There may be a risk of some slight distortion. We will see.

Cheers   :cheers:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: kvom on February 28, 2023, 01:23:13 PM
An idea I had for a long time and never played with is machining the cam profile with the tool in constant contact.  For each of the 90 positions the angle of the axis and the Z height are calculated as here, but in addition one can calculate the Y axis position.  The g-code then just moves smoothly with coordinated A/Y/Z axis.  The result should be no facets.  If the tool diameter is smaller than the cam width, or if less tool engagement is needed, the cam can be machined in multiple passes with varying X.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on February 28, 2023, 02:00:21 PM
Looking good Mike and the CNC certainly takes the monotony out of what is the CamCalc machining method.

Kvom, I think we had a thread about constant Cutting and Mike did cut some cams, the underside of a milling cutter does not give the ideal profile across the cam.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 28, 2023, 02:38:33 PM
Hello kvom

Jason beat me to the reply.

We did a piece about continuous contact cutting of crankpins (and cams) a few years ago.

Have a look at    https://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,9269.msg206169.html#msg206169  replies #17 + #18

We concluded that while it makes for an interesting demonstration. but at best, only a roughing cut, which needs further work. Some of the problems identified were to do with the cutter plunge cutting on the end face all the time i.e. zero cutting speed on the tool centre line as well as a concave face etc. All Most commercial milling cutters are ground slightly concave on the end, not flat, so would not produce parallel pins or flat cam surfaces . I guess that's why we all tend to use the CamCalc method or similar methods instead.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: dieselpilot on February 28, 2023, 03:13:50 PM
You can buy cutters with no dish. I've acquired a few unknowingly from ebay purchases.

Mike, I'm following along and admiring the time and patience that goes into your work.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 28, 2023, 03:15:40 PM
Even an end mill without dish has zero cutting speed on the tool centre line: not nice, as the cutter plunge cuts with this strategy.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on February 28, 2023, 05:07:35 PM
Excellent camshafts  :praise2:  :praise2:  I use the same basic method but in 6° steps and with a lot of handle cranking  ::)

Bucket shims are fun, my Dolomite Sprint used them.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: dieselpilot on February 28, 2023, 07:22:45 PM
I suppose hand coding with the cutter off to the side gets complicated.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 28, 2023, 07:47:31 PM
I believe any method of cam cutting, from the side, with a milling cutter will always need some degree of (hand ) finishing.

However, if you were able to rig up a horizontal tool (die) grinder to the mill head; then coordinated A, X, Y axis continuous contact cutting would be a good alternative solution.

Too late for this build though.  :thinking:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on February 28, 2023, 07:58:27 PM
I'm going to cut mine in the flat with a collar, and thread them on a shaft much like you did Mike.   I'm hoping for minimal hand fitting/filing....

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on March 05, 2023, 01:14:45 PM
I've spent most of the last week making adjustments and fine tuning the fit of the camshafts and their bearings. A lot of work, but things look much the same afterwards.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1257smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1255smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1253smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1254smal.JPG)


May have to do something about that wooden water circulation pump one day.

Cheers   :cheers:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: cnr6400 on March 05, 2023, 02:00:49 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Wonderful, Mike!
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: crueby on March 05, 2023, 02:35:59 PM
Wow. No other words!
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: RReid on March 05, 2023, 02:59:43 PM
Very few clues that those aren't pictures taken of the original full size engine. Just amazing, Mike. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: vtsteam on March 05, 2023, 03:05:57 PM
Mind boggling! :cheers:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Kim on March 05, 2023, 03:53:36 PM
Beautiful!  It's such a shame to cover up all those gears with that gear cover.  That is beautiful too, but I miss seeing the gears  ;)

Amazing work, Mike!  :popcorn:

Kim
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on March 05, 2023, 08:59:12 PM
Beautiful Covers - but I kind of feel like Kim ....   :noidea:  .... maybe a set of 'See Throughs'  :LittleDevil:

Amazing work Mike  :praise2:   :praise2:

Per             :cheers:     :popcorn:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Art K on March 05, 2023, 11:29:11 PM
Mike,
Words defy recognition of what you have there. Quite impressive by any standard.
Art
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on March 06, 2023, 05:21:05 PM
A big thank you to everyone  who looked in and called in.

That's the problem with most i/c engines; the more interesting mechanisms are usually covered and hidden out of sight.

Cheers   :cheers:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on March 06, 2023, 08:10:11 PM
Looks excellent  :praise2: :praise2: but I think the wooden water pump woodn't work  :wine1:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on March 30, 2023, 03:05:32 PM
Hello again,

It's almost April.  :cartwheel:  A catalogue of issues have conspired to keep me out of the workshop for most of this year. However, I have managed to sneak in a few days during the last week and have completed the work on the oil pump drive gears, started way back in January.

Those of you with a good memory will recall I had got as far as completing the gear blanks, with a few spares (just in case).

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1206smal.JPG)



The first task was to cut the 43 teeth on the larger compound gears. I sandwiched the gear blank between two aluminium spacers, which provided support, while the gears were being cut, as well as providing sufficient room for the involute cutter to move back and forth without contacting the collet nut.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1283smal.JPG)


I bought a ready made 20 tooth pinion from HPC for the smaller compound gear. It was less expensive than buying the necessary 20t involute cutter and waiting for delivery from China. The 22 tooth pinion was turned down to be an interference fit in the larger 43 t gear. The two parts were then pressed, Loctited and pinned together.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1285smal.JPG)



When the Loctite had cured, the compound gear was transferred to another fixture for the centre to be bored to accept a pair of roller bearings. The smaller 20t pinion is hidden inside the fixture

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1294smal.JPG)



The other gear in the oil pump drive train  is a 33 tooth gear. Here you see the teeth being cut. Again I used spacers to support the gear during the cutting operation. You will notice the tail stock ram pressing against the rear aluminium spacer.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1290smal.JPG)



Here are the two sets of gears. The roller bearings are a press fit with a dab of Loctite, for added security

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1295smal.JPG)



The battery of oil pressure and scavenge pumps run at approximately half crankshaft speed, to prevent cavitation.

Here you can see the oil pump drive gears, assembled onto the rear main bearing cap of the engine, to check the fit and mesh of the all the gears. Everything looks good and feels good, so far. I still need to shim their fore/aft positions to get the gears to be perfectly in line.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1296smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1300smal.JPG)


It's getting rather busy inside the gear case at the back of the engine. Shame that it will all be covered up by the rear cover.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1302smal.JPG)



I am well pleased with how they turned out and as you can see a certain young lady has found a use for one of the unused gear blanks.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1282smal.JPG)


All I need now is to beg, steal or borrow either a 9t MOD 1.25 or a 9t 20 DP involute cutter to make the internal oil pump gears. Any ideas or offers?

Hopefully there will be lots more to follow from Vixen's den

Cheers   :cheers:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on March 30, 2023, 03:12:17 PM
Looking good

Not sure if the usual involute cutters go down to 9T due to the need for undercut that can only be done on a gear planer unless you can CNC cut a suitable single tooth cutter from HSS and then set up the CNC mill as a slotter. Or mill the contour of the gear with a very small cutter
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: cnr6400 on March 30, 2023, 03:39:26 PM
Great looking gears Mike! Like the young lady's necklace.   :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:  :cheers:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on March 30, 2023, 03:41:59 PM
Looking good

Not sure if the usual involute cutters go down to 9T due to the need for undercut that can only be done on a gear planer unless you can CNC cut a suitable single tooth cutter from HSS and then set up the CNC mill as a slotter. Or mill the contour of the gear with a very small cutter

Hello Jason,

I suspect you are correct about standard involute cutters. I have a contingency plan to make a single point, single tooth cutter on the CNC based on Ivan Law's button method. Zephyrin  has also described a similar method and geometry.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: MMan on March 30, 2023, 04:14:39 PM
Hi Mike,

Something I have done to make unusual gears is to draw their profile in CAD and then cut the gear directly with the CNC mill.  I super glued the material to a piece of scrap and let the cutter nibble away around the edge. Needs small milling cutters and a bit of patience but worked for me.

All the best,

Martin.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on March 30, 2023, 04:32:17 PM
Glad to see that you found a bit more time Mike  :)  and what a great result  :cheers:

Per
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on March 30, 2023, 04:50:47 PM
Looking good

Not sure if the usual involute cutters go down to 9T due to the need for undercut that can only be done on a gear planer unless you can CNC cut a suitable single tooth cutter from HSS and then set up the CNC mill as a slotter. Or mill the contour of the gear with a very small cutter

Hello Jason,

I suspect you are correct about standard involute cutters. I have a contingency plan to make a single point, single tooth cutter on the CNC based on Ivan Law's button method. Zephyrin  has also described a similar method and geometry.

Mike


12 to 13 is the usual lower limit on form gear cutters
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on March 30, 2023, 08:41:28 PM
Hello again,

It's almost April.  :cartwheel:  A catalogue of issues have conspired to keep me out of the workshop for most of this year. However, I have managed to sneak in a few days during the last week and have completed the work on the oil pump drive gears, started way back in January.

Those of you with a good memory will recall I had got as far as completing the gear blanks, with a few spares (just in case).

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1206smal.JPG)



The first task was to cut the 43 teeth on the larger compound gears. I sandwiched the gear blank between two aluminium spacers, which provided support, while the gears were being cut, as well as providing sufficient room for the involute cutter to move back and forth without contacting the collet nut.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1283smal.JPG)


I bought a ready made 20 tooth pinion from HPC for the smaller compound gear. It was less expensive than buying the necessary 20t involute cutter and waiting for delivery from China. The 22 tooth pinion was turned down to be an interference fit in the larger 43 t gear. The two parts were then pressed, Loctited and pinned together.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1285smal.JPG)



When the Loctite had cured, the compound gear was transferred to another fixture for the centre to be bored to accept a pair of roller bearings. The smaller 20t pinion is hidden inside the fixture

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1294smal.JPG)



The other gear in the oil pump drive train  is a 33 tooth gear. Here you see the teeth being cut. Again I used spacers to support the gear during the cutting operation. You will notice the tail stock ram pressing against the rear aluminium spacer.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1290smal.JPG)



Here are the two sets of gears. The roller bearings are a press fit with a dab of Loctite, for added security

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1295smal.JPG)



The battery of oil pressure and scavenge pumps run at approximately half crankshaft speed, to prevent cavitation.

Here you can see the oil pump drive gears, assembled onto the rear main bearing cap of the engine, to check the fit and mesh of the all the gears. Everything looks good and feels good, so far. I still need to shim their fore/aft positions to get the gears to be perfectly in line.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1296smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1300smal.JPG)


It's getting rather busy inside the gear case at the back of the engine. Shame that it will all be covered up by the rear cover.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1302smal.JPG)



I am well pleased with how they turned out and as you can see a certain young lady has found a use for one of the unused gear blanks.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1282smal.JPG)


All I need now is to beg, steal or borrow either a 9t MOD 1.25 or a 9t 20 DP involute cutter to make the internal oil pump gears. Any ideas or offers?

Hopefully there will be lots more to follow from Vixen's den

Cheers   :cheers:

Mike

I'll trying modelling it up tonight and see what the challenges are Mike
9T  1.25 mod

I know a guy with a 10K rpm spindle
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on March 30, 2023, 08:46:54 PM

I'll trying modelling it up tonight and see what the challenges are Mike
9T  1.25 mod

I know a guy with a 10K rpm spindle

But does that guy know that the pump gears are 15mm OD and I need a total of 20 pump gear wheels?. Some 4mm, some 5 mm and some 6mm wide?

Cheers    :cheers:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on March 30, 2023, 08:49:00 PM

I'll trying modelling it up tonight and see what the challenges are Mike
9T  1.25 mod

I know a guy with a 10K rpm spindle

But does that guy know that the pump gears are 15mm OD and I need a total of 20 pump gear wheels?. Some 4mm, some 5 mm and some 6mm wide?

Cheers    :cheers:

Mike

Lets start with 1....and I'll have a talk with the guy..... 8)
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on March 30, 2023, 08:52:03 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on March 30, 2023, 09:14:55 PM
Looking good

Not sure if the usual involute cutters go down to 9T due to the need for undercut that can only be done on a gear planer unless you can CNC cut a suitable single tooth cutter from HSS and then set up the CNC mill as a slotter. Or mill the contour of the gear with a very small cutter
Hi Mike,

Something I have done to make unusual gears is to draw their profile in CAD and then cut the gear directly with the CNC mill.  I super glued the material to a piece of scrap and let the cutter nibble away around the edge. Needs small milling cutters and a bit of patience but worked for me.

All the best,

Martin.

It looks like I could clear the majority of the pump gear profile with a 2.0mm end mill and finish the base of the gear profile with a 1.5mm end mill.

However the prospect of getting a 1.5mm end mill to survive frightens me.

My CNC has a max spindle speed of 5000 RPM. The proposed material for the pump gears is a hard brass or SAE 660 bearing bronze; 4 to 6 mm thick.  I have found 1.5mm 2 flute HSS and 1.5 four flute solid carbide cutters; both quite expensive and very fragile looking.

 :help: What feeds, speeds and depth of cut would my learned friends recommend, to give the cutter a reasonable chance of survival? Slow and gentle; time is not an issue  :help:

All advice would be gratefully received as the 'suck it and see' approach could be very expensive.

Cheers   :cheers:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on March 30, 2023, 09:18:58 PM

I'll trying modelling it up tonight and see what the challenges are Mike
9T  1.25 mod

I know a guy with a 10K rpm spindle

9T 1.25MOD with 20*PA looks good
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Steamer5 on March 30, 2023, 10:08:27 PM
Hi Mike,
 The bling from your shop is very impressive! That’s some work on those gears.
On the cutter front for your oil pump, check out PCB cutters…burs… one of the guys on another forum uses them for doing small work on his CNC, they don’t cut fast, but then it’s not a race, & from all accounts they are far cheaper than endmills. It sounds like they go smaller than 1 mm as well

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: jcge on March 31, 2023, 02:14:02 AM
Lovely work Mike.
If undercutting is a concern, you may consider using profile shifted gears to thicken the root of the teeth.
Something I've also gleaned about gear pumps is they are frequently provided with a little relief in the side plate to avoid a trapped fluid pocket in the meshing zone (probably not an issue at this scale).
Regards
John
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on March 31, 2023, 07:08:19 AM
With that many gears needed it might be worth thinking of milling a few  longer sticks held horizontally in the 4th axis rather than multiple contours particularly with the 6mm thickness of some of the gears as you are likely to run out of straight shank let alone flute length before you get all the way through not to mention deflection.

Depending on the bore you could use a ball nose and go deeper into the root of the teeth if cutting it this way

Funny enough generating the gear in both Alibre and F360 doe snot seem to show an undercut, I wonder if they adjust the smaller gears as part of the program. If so then a single point tool used as you would a commercial cutter would be the way to go. I know members who have CNC cut HSS to form the tools.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on March 31, 2023, 07:36:51 AM
Not sure if a 1.5mm cutter will do the contour unless the profile is modified as both F360 and Alibre show the cutter is too large unless you are thinking of having a very rounded root. Even so that will be a large amount of cutter engagement as it cuts the root, chatter at best Oh Bu**er more likely

Chipload is going  to be 0.01mm to 0.02 depending on type of cut  at 5000rpm that's 100-200 mm/min feed for 2 flute. That's from YG-1 catalogue I would try half that to start with.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: john mills on March 31, 2023, 10:08:36 AM
the gears are looking great
these small no of teeth gears would be easy with a hobbing or a gear shaper i did at one time cut lots of gears with low numbers of teeth
5 teeth often i did one with 3 teeth by accident  .they also altered size so the teeth had no undercut even with 5 teeth but i don't have
the use of those machines any more .
john 
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on March 31, 2023, 01:01:04 PM
Thanks Jason, engaging on both sides of the cutter is going to be a problem but not insurmountable.   Additionally, the teeth could be undercut if they are made by profiling them.

Mike can you confirm actual center distance?   And bore diameter?

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on March 31, 2023, 01:21:26 PM
This is what I come up with.    Without making a custom form cutter, I would have to profile mill this,   the cutter diameter shown is a 1.5mm

I think it's possible, but I have no idea how accurate the profile would be.    Or even how important it would be for an oil pump.   Based on my experience with MY mill   I think it's likely enough to be successful to give it a try.

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on March 31, 2023, 02:02:25 PM
Dave, are you using the FMGear creator in F360 to do that as I get less room than you  :headscratch:

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on March 31, 2023, 02:21:43 PM
Nope  My bad    I did a 1.5 mod     I'll lay that out again

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on March 31, 2023, 02:23:15 PM
Looks like you have 1.5MOD there not 1.25MOD. which is 11.25mm PCD (9 x 1.25)

Mine comes up a bit different as I am on the free one.

Typing at the same time :)
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on March 31, 2023, 02:30:11 PM
Well   I still show it clearing.....just


9T  20 PA  Mod 1.25

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on March 31, 2023, 02:50:35 PM
Something like this    I used a 1/16 endmill....  It wont get quite to the root of the tooth, but based on your sketch, it appears to clear.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on March 31, 2023, 02:56:08 PM
Way back in 1962, JFK said something like, "We chose to do it (go to the moon), not because it is easy, but because it is hard. That goal will serve to organise and measure the best of our energies and skills". I find, sixty years later, that I apply the same philosophy to my model engineering activities. What's the challenge in 'easy' ???.

Mike, Jason, Dave, jcge and others, than you for your help and advice, that's what makes MEM such a special forum. I can see several ways to make these pump gears; wire EDM (too expensive), small diameter milling cutter, or a single tooth fly cutter. I need to consider all the options to find one I can live with.

The oil pump assembly for the MB W165 comprises several pressure and scavenger pump sections within a single unit. All the crankshaft bearings in the W165 are roller bearing, so neither to pressure pumps or scavenger pumps need to develop any significant pressure; they only have to transfer the oil. 
A typical pump section looks like this:

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/PUMP.jpg)

Both Jason and Dave (Steamer) are looking into what's involved if a small diameter milling cutter (1.5mm) were used. I am sure the gears could be done that way but making 20 gears could prove to be expensive in cutters.

The base of the gears does not need to be square cut as shown in your sketches, the base radius would be acceptable as there is actually no contact between the gears in that area. Just a thought; It may be possible to pre-drill a circle of nine 1.5mm holes to form the base circles before profiling the remainder of the gear profile with a larger milling cutter.

I await your learned advice as to feeds speeds and depth of cut.



Both Jason and Dave are looking at creating a true involute tooth profiles. Good working gears can also be produced using a circular arc profile i.e.  Ivan Law's two buttons method.

So, I have been looking at an alternative method of cutting a stick of gears using a single point, single tooth, fly cutter, based on  Ivan Law's two buttons method. I made a similar cutter for my Bristol Jupiter magneto gears. I am not sure how long the hardened gauge plate cutter will last while cutting SAE 660 bronze

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1070263.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1070268.JPG)


The cutter was based on Ivan Law's two buttons method, which defines the diameter of the circular arcs. Zephyrin provided the necessary cutter theory and geometry and Ivan Law's excellent book "Gears and Gear Cutting" provided very practical advice and the "how to". It's not quite watchmaking but smaller than clockmaking.

Zephyrin's method produces the following sketch to make a single point, single tooth cutter with circular arcs. It would be interesting to superimpose the circular arc tooth profile over the true involute profile and see the differences. Over to the left, I have sketched the same gears with a wide radius base and rotated them to confirm the adjacent teeth would not come into contact. Oh! and there is virtually no undercutting, using the circular arc method

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/GEAR.jpg)

This is how Zephyrin generates the button sizes.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/thumbnail_567DF6BBB99C4E98962FDCAA792050AD.png)

Cheers

Mike

I now need to go back and study all your inputs which appeared while I was typing this reply
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on March 31, 2023, 03:34:19 PM
My interest Mike is also somewhat selfish as I have a spindle that does not have much torque at low speed and for gears much bigger than say mod 1 or 32 DP.  I don't think I can cut in a single.pass with a standard gear cutter.  For those gears I'd like to understand if my machine could profile them.   It brings another "tool" to the arsenal...
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on March 31, 2023, 04:10:52 PM
Early on when I first stepped into the dark side I snapped a 4mm cutter trying to finish these internal corners after roughing with a 6mm cutter, material is 8mm thick EN8

(https://www.model-engineer.co.uk/sites/7/images/member_albums/44290/829227.jpg)

For the second one I pre drilled which made the final filing to a tight internal corner easier, not that you would want to file that many gears

(https://www.model-engineer.co.uk/sites/7/images/member_albums/44290/923072.jpg)

(https://www.model-engineer.co.uk/sites/7/images/member_albums/44290/923073.jpg)

Maybe if you drilled out 1.8 or even 2mm that would substantially reduce cutter engagement though still needs a long cutter, exaggerated below



Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on March 31, 2023, 04:33:07 PM
I'll try cutting a pair 7mm wide today   i'll use a 1/16" end mill   cuz that's whats in the draw....and I'll report back
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on March 31, 2023, 04:53:06 PM
Hi Dave,

We are approaching this from two entirely different directions. Your machine has a high speed, low torque spindle which favours the small diameter cutter. My Emco F1 mill has a lower speed spindle driven by a PWM controlled DC motor which gives the highest torque at slow speeds, It can drive a full size involute cutter, at full depth, through steel, using less than 180watts.

Good luck with your 1/16" end mill experiment. If it works out well, you will have discovered a way to make larger gears on your Tormach, for the Porsche 917. It would also prove one of the options and provide valuable feeds and speeds info for my pump gears.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on March 31, 2023, 10:08:26 PM
Easy peasy  lemon squeezy.
5000 rpm
.020" depth of cut per pass
10 in per min feedrate
Total depth of cut .250"
Some slight tooth form error probably from backlash but they mesh just fine.   For an oil pump this size I would try it before I made cutter buttons.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on March 31, 2023, 11:01:38 PM
Wow Dave, that's fantastic. You are a star..    :AllHailTheKing:



That test opens up a lot of possibilities for all sorts of things, other than small gears

What is the make of your 1/16" cutter? HSS or solid carbide? 2 flute or 4 flute? It must be a top quality cutter, I doubt an unnamed Chinese cutter would survive so well.

10" per min feedrate sound very high to me, I rarely move that fast with any size of cutter. But if it works for you, it should work for me but I will probably chicken out and use a lower feedrate.

Did you do a rough pass and then a finishing pass, or did you do one full cutter diameter pass around the gear profile? What stock material did you use?

Any idea of the total machine time for a single gear?

I cannot thank you enough for your help and support.

Cheers   :cheers:

Mike

PS I had to fight to open the two Jpg files. I could only open them on my Win 10 PC
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Kim on March 31, 2023, 11:04:19 PM
Hey Dave,
Something's goofy with the pictures that you uploaded.  I can't see them.  And if I try to download and open them it says it is a WEBP file with the incorrect extension (or something like that).  :(

Kim
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on March 31, 2023, 11:41:12 PM
Hey Dave,
Something's goofy with the pictures that you uploaded.  I can't see them.  And if I try to download and open them it says it is a WEBP file with the incorrect extension (or something like that).  :(

Kim

I reloaded them Kim     I see them well now

Mike  I used a 2 flute solid carbide with a 1/4" LOC  You will need to get one just a bit longer for 7mm wide gears.   I'm loading a video on youtube with the machine in action and I'll share once its up.
Use a good cutter Mike.   No Chinese junk...solid carbide   I ran at 5000 rpm, but more would have been better.    Still it was not working very hard at 10 in/min as the chip load was low.

Cut time was something like 4min 30 seconds each....so not blazing, but not slow.  You could crank out a bunch of gears in an afternoon doing that.   
Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on March 31, 2023, 11:52:48 PM
Wow Dave, that's fantastic. You are a star..    :AllHailTheKing:



That test opens up a lot of possibilities for all sorts of things, other than small gears

What is the make of your 1/16" cutter? HSS or solid carbide? 2 flute or 4 flute? It must be a top quality cutter, I doubt an unnamed Chinese cutter would survive so well.

10" per min feedrate sound very high to me, I rarely move that fast with any size of cutter. But if it works for you, it should work for me but I will probably chicken out and use a lower feedrate.

Did you do a rough pass and then a finishing pass, or did you do one full cutter diameter pass around the gear profile? What stock material did you use?

Any idea of the total machine time for a single gear?

I cannot thank you enough for your help and support.

Cheers   :cheers:

Mike

PS I had to fight to open the two Jpg files. I could only open them on my Win 10 PC

So the cut is put on in .020" deep steps....feed down, go around.   feed down and go around.    I cut to full radial depth each pass.
The stock I used was 1/2" 660 cast bronze bar as it was 0.560 OD and the gear was 0.541 so it worked out well.  Cuts like buttah!

it wasn't a big deal.   I think I could have gone much faster, but I didn't want to load up the ball screws and induce any more lash than I had to.

Ya know for a "tinkertoy" machine, it does alright!

Dave

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on April 01, 2023, 12:01:45 AM
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/an9tPn5Itq0
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on April 01, 2023, 12:54:05 AM
Mike

I can probably figure out how to convert the G code to a text file.....if that is of any interest to you.

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on April 01, 2023, 07:16:14 AM
Good result, a bit more than the rate I was thinking but I would more likely have used a bit more side of teh cutter and less engagement, though with the small dia your way may be better as it should reduce sideways deflection. 2mm is the smallest I have used and then only for cutting thin sheet.

The only cutter I could find with the long flutes was a pricy KG-1 Alu-pro https://www.cutwel.co.uk/milling-tools/milling-cutters/non-ferrous-milling-cutters/aluminium-machining-milling-cutters/1-5mm-2-flute-lapped-alu-power-carbide-slot-drill-e5d71-yg-1-e5d7101508. otherwise the ones from APT are reasonable but not much more than 4 or 5mm https://www.shop-apt.co.uk/carbide-end-mills-standard-length-2-flute-altin-coated-45hrc/carbide-end-mill-for-general-use-1-5mm-diameter-2-flute-altin-coated-45hrc.html
https://www.shop-apt.co.uk/carbide-end-mills-standard-length-2-flute-altin-coated-45hrc/carbide-end-mill-for-general-use-1-5mm-diameter-2-flute-altin-coated-45hrc.htmlCD

Mike, I noticed on your drawings showing a section of the pump and on the button drawing that you have the as 12.5mm not 11.25?

See if you can open this text file for boring a hole, if so then Dave's code can be saved that way.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on April 01, 2023, 11:56:53 AM
Quote
I can probably figure out how to convert the G code to a text file.....if that is of any interest to you.

G-Code is a text file ..... but often with a different extension name ...!
I usually save mine as *.nc - I'm sure that Tormach use a differen't extension name, but I will be surpriced if it isn't standard ASCII text file.

Long time ago, I used to rename those files to *.txt so they can be opened with any Editor - but the last two decades I've been using Notepad++ (Great FreeWare with amazing support) and it will open anything -> if I'm right about the format, you will be able to read the whole file as standard text, as is.
Anything that looks like gobledidyk in Notepad++ can be considered either raw Data or part of a program -> just close that file again without saving, and no harm done.

Another Great feature is that Notepad++ can have many files open @ the same time -> Easy to copy paste from one to another  ;)

Oh - and I should mention, that I like your Gears + the bonus it helps both Mike and you Dave  :praise2:

Per             :cheers:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on April 01, 2023, 12:01:08 PM
Thanks guys,

This has turned out to be another great team effort. Where else would you find that cooperation, other than on the MEM forum?

Good result, a bit more than the rate I was thinking but I would more likely have used a bit more side of teh cutter and less engagement, though with the small dia your way may be better as it should reduce sideways deflection. 2mm is the smallest I have used and then only for cutting thin sheet.
........snip
Mike, I noticed on your drawings showing a section of the pump and on the button drawing that you have the as 12.5mm not 11.25?
........snip

Jason your comment highlights how small tooth count gears are treated as an exception to the normal PCD=MOD X Tooth count rule.  The PCD=MOD x T applies to all gears down to 12 teeth. Small gears with 11T, 10T and 9T have their PCD corrected, to reduce potential undercutting.

My pump sketch shows a corrected PCD of 12.5mm not 11.25mm; and that is quite correct.

Have a look at this page from the HPC catalogue, you can see how the PCD is adjusted below 12 teeth using  Corrected PCD =MOD x T + 1

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/2.jpg)



Jason, I believe you generated you version of the 9 tooth pump gear from Alibra or F360. It seems that they only apply the standard PCD=MOD x T rule and have not compensated for the low tooth count..... an interesting oversight!!     :killcomputer:   I am not sure what PCD Dave used for his test piece, it's a bit academic as he was only attempting to demonstrate the viability small cutter machining.

Dave.   I could use a text file code, but only if the PCD was correct for my pump gear (i.e. PCD=12.5mm). It would be better Dave, if you were to send me a DXF file instead. That way I can compare the involute profile with my circular arc profile and check it ticks all the boxes. My Estlcam software can then generate the toolpath from the chosen DXF.

Thanks again

Cheers    :cheers:

Mike

PS Thanks Per for the useful file editing tip. I now know that to do if I get gobledidyk or gobledygook (as we say it)
 
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on April 01, 2023, 01:26:58 PM
Here you go!
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on April 01, 2023, 01:42:58 PM
Mike the two programs seem to default to MOD x T for the PCD but as I said I could not see any undercut on the gears produced so they may modify the profile. If I put a larger PCD into Alibre it just increases the MOD(tooth size), I can't enter a PCD in F360 as that is calculated from T and MOD
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on April 01, 2023, 03:53:38 PM
Hello Jason and Dave

This could be interesting entertaining.

The W165's pump body has been designed and has already been manufactured, based on the HPC Gears LTD. corrected dimensions of 15mm OD and 12.5 PCD for a 9 tooth 1.25 MOD gear. So that's what I need to make.  :facepalm:

I have not been able to open Dave's .DFX file due to AutoCAD version incompatibility reasons (I can only open to V12 or V14). So I cannot check what PCD and OD Dave used on his test gears. It may not be that important.

Instead, I used Zephyrin's button size method (see Reply #958) to generate my (circular arc) gear profiles based on 12.5 PCD and 15mm OD. They appear to rotate freely, without interference on the drawings, so that is what I will use. Dave has shown that they can be cut with a 1.5mm or 1/16" mill cutter, instead of making a single tooth form cutter. I only need to make one pair to confirm they will rotate freely.

Where there is a will, there will be a way.

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: crueby on April 01, 2023, 04:12:47 PM
Autocad has a free utility app called Trueview that can convert between  format versions, may help you open that file.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jo on April 01, 2023, 04:20:23 PM
Its an off the shelf gear for Robotics in USA, costs $10  :-X

Jo
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jo on April 01, 2023, 04:33:36 PM
Found a UK supplier https://www.vexrobotics.com/20dp-motorpinions.html?config=281-1330,282-1336,283-1344 but where is the fun buying one  :disappointed:

Looking forward to seeing how you machine one Mike  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on April 01, 2023, 04:38:07 PM
Its an off the shelf gear for Robotics in USA, costs $10  :-X

Jo

Thanks Jo

HPC also do them at £9.49 each

However I need qty 20, add VAT, add postage, that will be un-affordable. What is the fun in that? That's why I try to make as much as I can.

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on April 01, 2023, 04:56:54 PM
9T is discontinued at your UK supplier Jo

Mike, this is a 2003 autocad DXF which is the oldest one I can save as for you to compare profile. 9T 1.25MOD, 11.25PCD generated in Alibre
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jo on April 01, 2023, 05:01:30 PM
9T is discontinued at your UK supplier Jo

They still have four packs of 6 in stock for an eyewatering price (but still less than HPC)

Jo
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on April 01, 2023, 05:55:30 PM
My gear comes out at 12.75 pd and 13.75 OD

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on April 01, 2023, 06:24:08 PM
Dave Jason,

No surprise there, both your gears come out at 12.75PCD and 13.75 OD because you both use Aribra or F360, neither of which make PCD correction for low tooth count.

I am committed to 15 mm OD by the stuff I have already made. It looks like I have two options;
1. Use the Zephyrin circular arc (button) profile, which I have already drawn.
or
2.  scale your gears up to 15.0mm OD. They will no longer be exactly 1.25 MOD but they will fit each other like a glove.

My Estlcam will accept Jason's file but not Dave's. My AutoCAD will accept neither.

So Jason, please could you scale your 9T gear to exactly 15.0mm OD and I will see where that takes me.

Thanks

Mike

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on April 01, 2023, 06:50:40 PM
My gears are 11.25PCD which is MOD x T= 1.25 x 9 = 11.25 comes out the same in Alibre and F360. OD is 13.75 in both

15mm scaled one attached
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on April 01, 2023, 09:15:32 PM
Thanks Jason,

Thank you for creating that 15 mm file. Unfortunately it will not work; the OD is now correct (15.0mm) but the PCD is not the required 12.5 mm.

Not to worry. I will use the circular arc profile of the 9T 1.25Mod gear with corrected PCD which can be generated by Zephyrin's method and I know that can be machined with either a 1.5 mm or 1/16" end mill; Or even by a single point fly cutter.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/thumbnail_567DF6BBB99C4E98962FDCAA792050AD.png)

diametre primitif is the PCD.


Thanks again to you and Dave for all your help and patience.

Cheers   :killcomputer: :killcomputer:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: longpinesdesign on April 30, 2023, 09:22:32 PM
Hi Mike. Just got caught up on your W165 engine build and what an enjoyable read. Your level of skill and craftsmanship is top notch and I am looking forward to further installments of The Vixen's Den.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on May 01, 2023, 10:46:44 AM
Hello Longpines,

Welcome to the forum and thank you for your kind comments. I am pleased you enjoyed reading about the W165 build.


Cheers   :cheers:
Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on May 22, 2023, 05:29:53 PM
Hello again,

This year has not been a vintage year for me so far. What with my shoulder injury from a heavy fall, on black ice, in January and a succession of health issues. The good news is I am feeling a lot better with the warmer weather and have found my way back into Vixen's Den. it takes a little time to become reacquainted with what all the knobs and switches and keyboard buttons do. It's amazing how quickly the skills disappear when you do not use them.

Supercharger to Engine, Inlet Manifold

I decided to make a new start by attempting to fabricate the supercharger to engine inlet manifold. You can see the inlet manifold on this photo of the full size engine. The manifold runs from the centre of the supercharger drive gearbox, down the centre of the Vee between the two banks of cylinders with separate pipes branching off to the individual inlet ports of the cylinder blocks. You can also see the inlet pressure relief valve housing (the valve was set to pop off above 2.6Bar !!!!) at the front, next to the supercharger outlet port.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/R16762smal.JPG)



The first jobs were some simple turning. I needed 16 inlet port stubs to connect to the cylinder blocks. these were turned from 6084 bar. The outside shape was profiled first, before the central hole was drilled to size. The stub pipes were then parted off to the correct length. You can see I supported the stub pipe with the same drill, in order to catch the parted stub pipe. Much easier than scrabbling around the floor trying to locate them.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1262smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1259smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1260smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1264smal.JPG)


After the inlet stubs, I made the pipe clamps which are used to attach the inlet manifold the the cylinder inlet ports.

After drilling the through hole, I used this small boring bar to carve out the internal shape. I then used a 2mm parting tool to create the external profile before parting off each pipe clamp to length. Below, you can see the first three clamps. In all, I made 16 plus some spares.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1267smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1265smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1270smal.JPG)



Each of the pipe clamps will later be cut into two semicircles. A steel band will then clamp the pipe clamp halves in place on the pipe work.

I seems that Mercedes Benz used natural rubber 'O' seals in each pipe clamp. After the joint was bolted together; they applied engine oil to the natural rubber seal which caused it to swell, thus ensuring an air tight joint. These 'O' seals could only be used once, unfortunately they also required time to allow the seal to expand and seal the joint.

Stay tuned

Mike

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on May 22, 2023, 06:05:40 PM
Glad to see you feeling better and back in the workshop  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: crueby on May 22, 2023, 06:18:17 PM
Back and making great progress!  A very impressive build.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on May 22, 2023, 10:43:27 PM
Thank you Roger and Chris,

I find Roger's dogged determination and persistence with his fuel injection developments, to be truly inspirational. And the rate with Chris produces his Ohio battleship engine parts, just leaves me exhausted, trying to keep up with his build log.

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on May 23, 2023, 01:02:20 AM
Thank you Roger and Chris,

I find Roger's dogged determination and persistence with his fuel injection developments, to be truly inspirational. And the rate with Chris produces his Ohio battleship engine parts, just leaves me exhausted, trying to keep up with his build log.

Cheers

Mike

I couldn't possibly agree more!
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on May 23, 2023, 10:15:38 AM
Glad to see you feeling better and back in the workshop Mike  :ThumbsUp:  :cheers:

I completely agree with your sentiments about Roger and Chris - impressive  :praise2:

Per
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on May 23, 2023, 02:23:28 PM
 Dave and Per, thank you for calling in. It's always nice to hear from old friends.  :cheers:


The central part of the supercharger to engine inlet manifold was milled from 6084 aluminium billet. The central through in the lower half was machined first. The stub pipes which connect to the cylinder head inlet ports face downwards at an angle on either side. To achieve this angle, the block was transferred to an angle plate, set over at an angle of 17 degrees, to machine both side faces at the required angle. The holes to receive the stub pipes could then be machined.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1303smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1306smal.JPG)



The eight stub pipes were then bonded into the central tube using JB Weld. The assembly was allowed to cure overnight, before the excess stub pipe material, inside the trough, was cleaned up. The two banks of cylinder blocks are staggered by 6mm, side to side, which you can clearly see reflected in the inlet manifold assembly. You can also see the two sacrificial mounting pads on either end.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1308smal.JPG)



Here, you can see the top covers for the central tube, before they were bonded in place. I have also started to rough out the central tube towards it's final round shape with a hand file. Also one of the sacrificial mounting pads has been removed, the remaining one was used to align the top and bottom halves of the central tube.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1310smal.JPG)



Here is the assembled inlet manifold before the laborious task of creating the round cross section shape with hand files.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1314smal.JPG)



Below you can see two inlet manifolds with the central tube filed roughly to shape. The end flange which connects to the supercharger outlet was machined next.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1317smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1320smal.JPG)




This final photo shows the completed inlet manifold and the pipe clamps which will attach it to the supercharger outlet and the inlet ports on the cylinder blocks. The high pressure pop-off valve and cover will sit inside and on top of the large end flange.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1322smal.JPG)


I find hand filing very therapeutic. It is both slow and labour intensive but free of the pressures and risks of CNC machining, where one false button press or one typo error can lead to imminent disaster. The key to successful hand working is to use new, sharp, files and patience.

Stay tuned

Mike


Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: simplyloco on May 23, 2023, 03:37:53 PM
SNIP
I find hand filing very therapeutic. It is both slow and labour intensive but free of the pressures and risks of CNC machining, where one false button press or one typo error can lead to imminent disaster. The key to successful hand working is to use new, sharp, files and patience.

Stay tuned

Mike

AND a lot of time spent learning how to do it!
Very lovely!
John
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on May 23, 2023, 04:56:52 PM
Hello John,

Yes, a lot of the first year of my RAF apprenticeship was spent in the workshop with only a set of files and a bench vice. Only once you had mastered that, were you introduced to the machinery.

Happy days

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Kim on May 23, 2023, 05:47:29 PM
Impressive work on the inlet manifold, Mike!   :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:

Your build is always amazing! Thanks for taking the time to share it with us.

Kim
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: cnr6400 on May 23, 2023, 05:51:15 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:    :cheers:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jo on May 23, 2023, 08:00:32 PM
That looks rather nice Mike  8)

Looking forward to seeing it on the stand at the show  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on May 23, 2023, 08:04:58 PM
That's some fine crafting  :praise2:  :praise2:

I suppose that they were using a high supercharger pressure to overcome the rather poor gas flowing of that manifold?
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on May 23, 2023, 08:42:19 PM
Thanks Kim, cnr, Jo and Roger.

Jo,    All we need is a show...... any show. They seem few and far between or a long distance away, post Covid.

Roger,   Agreed, the inlet plumbing looks decidedly old fashioned with rather poor gas flow. But with the two superchargers pushing hard, did the poor gas flow really matter?  I guess, these days (85 years later) there would be a large volume, central plenum chamber connecting directly to the cylinder heads and the compounded, two stage, mechanical Roots blowers would have been replaced by a couple of huge turbochargers.

We should remember that back in 1939, the W165 burned an exotic fuel cocktail, containing a large proportion of methanol, blended with several other, rather toxic, power enhancing additives. The carburation was set super-rich (3 MPG for a 1.5 litre engine !!! ) the methanol was used to evaporation cool the inlet charge, provide inter-stage cooling (no intercooler), lowish combustion chamber temperatures and to protect the exhaust valves from burning. The mixture was set so rich, it needed to be moved through the engine rapidly to prevent precipitation of the fuel in the pipework. That could partially account for the seemingly narrow manifold pipework.

Cheers   :cheers:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: jcge on May 23, 2023, 11:14:54 PM
Mike - beautiful work
With all that hand filing of aluminium, how do you best avoid pinning (pickup/loading) of the file teeth?
Regards
John
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on May 24, 2023, 01:54:00 PM
Mike - beautiful work
With all that hand filing of aluminium, how do you best avoid pinning (pickup/loading) of the file teeth?
Regards
John

Hello John,

A new, sharp, file will always be less prone to aluminium pinning (pickup) than one which has known taste of steel. The easiest way to ruin a new file is to chuck it into the box or draw with all your other files.

Use long, light file strokes, don't force it. The sharpest part of the file is usually near the handle rather than near the tip.

Rub the face of the file with chalk if pickup (pinning) is a problem. Black board chalk works well, welders marking out chalk is even better.

Use a knife blade (scalpel) to remove any stubborn pinning, rather than a file card.



Here are some photos of the inlet manifold in place on the engine. I have not yet fitted the pipe clamps. They are so fiddley, they can wait until the final assembly.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1327smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1329smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1332smal.JPG)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1333smal.JPG)


And this, for comparison, is the full size engine. Only two still exist; both are owned by Mercedes Benz and are located in Stuttgart.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/R16762smal.JPG)



That's another tricky item crossed off the 'to do' list. Now, I only need to find the energy to make the next bits

Cheers   :cheers:

Mike

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: wagnmkr on May 24, 2023, 02:20:42 PM
Incredible workmanship! If I hadn't read the rest of the build, and seen the processes, and someone just showed some of the photo's, I honestly would not believe this was a model!

Absolutely outstanding!

Tom
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: jcge on May 24, 2023, 11:06:16 PM
Thanks for the filing tips Mike - much appreciated.
I sit here dumbstruck looking at the pics of your work.
John
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: petertha on May 25, 2023, 01:33:42 AM
Mike, I'm glad you are feeling better & back in the shop. Nice to see these stunning pictures again.

Re your supercharger manifold, I am pondering a similar but less complex assembly for next project - individual manifold components joined with JB or similar aluminized epoxy. I've made a few test coupons with minimal but present external fillets & they have a nice appearance. The epoxy color blends well if the entire part has kind of satin finish & I'm confident it would take indirect (non-exhaust) heat. The only thing that gives me pause is I made certain repairs to RC engine components in my past life. The epoxy never let go but it took on a different color over time, like a few flying seasons. Not sure if it presence of fuel/oils, UV or even just mild heat cycles? It wasn't horrible but also not as pretty as new. Have you had good luck with JB in running conditions?

I looked into some aluminum brazing options but the melting point is so close to the stock. With practice I might get lucky with a single joint, but multiple joints & different relative mass between parts, I suspect the odds are in favor of a molten puddle. I've seen a video where a somewhat complex assembly was pre-fluxed & pre-wired with braze on all the joints, the whole thing put into a controlled (heat treat) oven, slowly crept to temp until it flowed & then door opened. The part looked great but one never sees the prior sacrifices. Any comments in this regard?

https://canadaweldingsupply.ca/products/harris-al-braze-1070-kit
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on May 25, 2023, 10:30:59 AM
Hello Petertha,

Good to hear from you again.

In truth, an epoxy bonded fabrication is the last resort. Far better to use a casting or machine the component from solid but sometimes that is just not practical. A metal/ epoxy fabrication is best suited to a static or low stress environment.

Cheers

Mike



Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on May 25, 2023, 09:41:40 PM
Unfortunately only in German :  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNTm5Vz8iRI

.... and homepage https://www.tav3.de/ (https://www.tav3.de/)

Disclaimer – I haven’t tried this myself – but the product has been tested by Technical Institutes in Germany.

This is Alloy Soldering @ 308C (melting temp for the 'Solder'). He uses the 'Solder' to indicate the Temperature and the Screwdriver to penetrate the Aluminium-Oxide.
This Alloy made up from eight different materials – like Al, Zn, Cu, Mg, Mn, Ag (he does not mention them all).
So, you can solder a number of different materials together – like a Galvanized steel nut, to Aluminium as in the Video. He does mention that this is as solid as the Zn is fixed to the Steel (not Alu to Steel).

He also states that it is very important that the parts can't move relative to each other during the Procces and until cooled down (like normal Soft-Solder).

Sorry if I have mentioned this before .... + I agree that it will still be difficult to hold it all in possition and not removing the heat while doing so ....

Per
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: RReid on May 27, 2023, 04:06:10 PM
Hello Mike. It's great to hear that you're feeling better and getting back into the shop.

I'm curious as to why you chose to round over that central tube with files rather than by CNC, and why it was done after rather than before adding the inlet stubs? In any case, the end result is beautiful!
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on May 27, 2023, 07:00:00 PM
Hello Ron,

Back in the shop, yes, but not for more than an hour in any day.

We have a saying, "there's more than one way to skin a cat" and that is also true for complicated fabrications.

Here is my rational.

I wanted the stub tubes to form a concentric spigot in the central tube i.e. with a well defined square shoulder; for the strongest bonded joint.
I needed to precisely control the -17* down facing angle of the stub tubes and also to ensure they were square to the axis.
I reasoned, a precisely machined angled, flat face on either side of the central tube was a good way of achieving the required angular accuracy on all eight stub tubes.
The central tube does not have a perfectly circular cross section, it's egg shaped.  So lathe CNC was out. It could maybe be done in short sections using the 4th axis but I don't have adequate 4 axis software.
Besides, there is an interesting intersection where the smaller diameter stub tubes intersect with the larger central tube. This was not amenable to machining on my simple 4 axis CNC mill (may have been possible on my 'dream' 5 axis machine: I wish) . So some hand filling would always be needed. So I decided to cement in the stub tubes first, to achieve the accuracy I needed, then file all the centre tube, by hand.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1337smal~0.JPG)

There may have been other or better ways to do this manifold, everyone's mileage will differ

Cheers   :cheers:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: RReid on May 27, 2023, 08:38:19 PM
Thanks for the explanation, Mike. That makes perfect sense. :cheers:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on May 27, 2023, 09:27:37 PM
Very very nice Filing (handwork)  :praise2:

.... but inquiring minds like to know what the small hole in the last picture is used for  :headscratch:

Quote
(may have been possible on my 'dream' 5 axis machine: I wish)

You + quite a good number of the rest of us  :P 

Per         :cheers:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on May 27, 2023, 10:29:07 PM
Very very nice Filing (handwork)  :praise2:

.... but inquiring minds like to know what the small hole in the last picture is used for  :headscratch:


Per         :cheers:

As far as I can tell, the small hole is a pressure gauge tapping for the second supercharger stage and was used only during bench testing. On the racing car, the hole is blanked off (no supercharger, or should I say Kompressor, pressure gauge on the car)

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1329smal.JPG)

More interesting, may be the second tapping (see photo) on the side of the pop-off valve housing. A thin rubber tube ran from the pop-off valve tapping into the drivers cockpit. The driver tucked the end of the rubber pipe inside of his cotton crash?? helmet. He could hear when the pop off valve blew off..... that was his signal to pull the next gear.
No ECUs or AI in those far off days.

The driver only had three instruments, so as not to distract him. Tacho, oil pressure and water temperature.

Cheers  :cheers:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: crueby on May 27, 2023, 11:35:24 PM
Absolutely  stunning  model!  About how much does it weigh so far?   :NotWorthy:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: RReid on May 28, 2023, 12:08:22 AM
Quote
The driver tucked the end of the rubber pipe inside of his cotton crash?? helmet. He could hear when the pop off valve blew off..... that was his signal to pull the next gear.
That is interesting. A kind of audible HUD. At least those "helmets" were good for something!
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: cnr6400 on May 28, 2023, 02:31:08 AM
Hope a backfire never went up that tube from the pop-off valve! That would be distracting, to say the least!  :zap:  :Lol:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on May 28, 2023, 09:25:25 AM
Hope a backfire never went up that tube from the pop-off valve! That would be distracting, to say the least!  :zap:  :Lol:

Ha ha!!  I would have thought a sudden blast of nitrobenzine doped fuel inside your hat, would have been stimulating enough.   :ROFL: :zap:

Chris, the engine currently turns the scales at a little over 6 Kg.(13.25 lbs); mostly aluminium alloy and steel. You seem to have cornered the market for shiny brass. I guess the weight of all the swarf and chips (and scrap) must weight 5 to 10 times more than the engine itself.

Cheers  :cheers:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Art K on May 29, 2023, 03:02:05 PM
Mike,
Glad to see you're healthy & in the shop again. I had gotten a few pages behind and used a long weekend to get cought up. Impressive work as usual, and it's fun to hear the story behind things. Keep up the great work!
Art
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on May 31, 2023, 05:50:31 PM
Thank you Art,

It's a slow news day, so I thought I'd better post some progress on the pop-off relief valve cover and vent pipe which adorns the W165's inlet manifold.

Although I only need two, I set about making three valve covers, as a sort of insurance policy. Making was straightforward turning and milling. Here are the outside and inside views and one with the cutout for the vent pipe. The wall thickness is about 1mm

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1341smal.JPG)



The vent pipe is inclined at an angle of 20 degrees, so I screwed each cover to a jig plate held in the machine vice and tilted over to the required angle. A 10mm diameter hole was bored to depth, which produced this interesting blend line.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1342smal.JPG)



A family shot showing two assemblies bonded together and the component parts for the third.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1345smal.JPG)



Here you can see the pop-off relief valve cover and vent pipe bolted in place on the inlet manifold. You can also see the pipe union and rubber pipe used for the pop-off detection. Everything seems to fit well. Next is to clean up inside the valve cover followed by a visit to meet Mr. Sandblaster.

(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1347smal.JPG)



Another small part almost ticked of the never ending 'to do' list.

Cheers   :cheers:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Kim on May 31, 2023, 06:27:02 PM
Wow!  Just wow!

Are those parts JP welded together?  Or attached in some other way?

Kim
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on May 31, 2023, 06:39:26 PM
Hello Kim,

Ideally, that part should have been a casting.  I have had no success with these aluminium solders you see being demonstrated at the shows. Unfortunately, I have had to resort to JB Weld.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Kim on June 01, 2023, 05:37:43 AM
Thanks Mike,
Yes, of course!  I have been reading those posts too.  Somehow, I didn't think about this being aluminum...  Sorry to make you explain it again.

Kim
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on June 01, 2023, 02:49:17 PM
Hello Kim,

Your main interest is in steam locos; where the 'normal' materials are iron, steel, copper, brass and bronze. It's natural for you to think in terms of these materials, which are amenable to soft (lead) soldering, hard (silver) soldering and brazing, not to mention the various 'home shop' welding techniques. I wish the same were true for aluminium alloys.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Brendon M on June 08, 2023, 08:37:46 AM
MIG can weld aluminium, if you didn't already know

I will get back in my box
 :toilet_claw:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Brendon M on June 08, 2023, 02:24:43 PM
Nice!

I mentioned the MIG mostly because that's what most hobbyist workshops may already have*, whereas AC capable TIG machines on the other hand tend to be on the expensive side.

One thing I really want to try is building up rough shapes with welding which then get machined, kind of like casting

*unless like me their masochistic tendencies run deep and they have a buzzbox stick welder

OK I shall stop hijacking the discussion :)
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 07, 2024, 07:07:53 PM
Coolant  Pump

Yes, I know it’s been a long while since I last posted an update on the Mercedes W165 engine build. The reason is simple, health issues have conspired to keep me out of the workshop for most of last year. None the less, I am still trying to make some slow progress, although the winter weather makes the unheated outdoor workshop is not very appealing.

I decided it was high time I did something about that wooden dummy water-pump which has adorned the right side of the engine for a few years. The water-pump is a nice self-contained unit that would serve as a suitable challenge to keep both my mind and fingers active

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1551smal.JPG)



Below you can see a cross section through the front part of the M165 engine. The water pump is on the left and the supercharger scavenge pump drive is disappearing, out of sight, to the right. This blueprint is dated June 1939. If you can read the parts call out, you can see this water pump used many parts from the previous M25  and M154 designs. Obviously this saved design and manufacturing time.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/WPUMP.jpg)

The water-pump is a self-contained unit with a conventional centrifugal vane pump which is driven, via a pair of bevel gears, off the supercharger drive's intermediate gear, at about 2/3 engine speed. The centrifugal pump draws coolant from the radiator into the eye of the centrifugal pump. You may notice at the top, the involute's output port is divided into two. One half provides coolant for the left bank of cylinders and the other sends an equal quantity of coolant to the right cylinder bank.
 



(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1542smal.JPG)

Here you see the mounting flange for the water pump, angled downwards at 30 degrees. There is an identical mounting flange on the other side of the crankcase for the superchargers scavenge pump and fuel pump drive.

Just to the left of the water-pump mounting flange you can see a flanged hole passing through the magnesium alloy crankcase. This was intended to carry the water coolant across to the other side of the engine. This did not turn out to be a good decision by the Mercedes design office. The coolant was plain water with no additives, the cylinder blocks were welded steel, the water pump was cast aluminium and the coolant was pumped through the magnesium alloy crankcase. No consideration was given to the possibility of galvanic corrosion, which was inevitable considering the mixture of different metals. The net result was the hot coolant reacted with the magnesium ally crankcase. The walls of the coolant passage through crankcase casting eventually corroded away and the coolant leaked and mixed with the engine oil. The fix employed by the Mercedes design office, was to abandon the coolant through hole and make an external steel pipe connection to carry the coolant around the front of the engine to the opposite side of the engine. That external pipework is still there today, 80 years later.

Best to tune in again as there is more to follow.

Mike                                                     
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: crueby on February 07, 2024, 07:21:39 PM
Just got in another box of 'wow's, so I'll use one here.  Wow!   :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: RReid on February 07, 2024, 07:35:31 PM
Hi Mike. I always look forward to your updates on this engine, no matter how long between. :ThumbsUp: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: cnr6400 on February 07, 2024, 08:58:25 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on February 08, 2024, 10:08:34 AM
I'm suprised Mercedes  mixed all three alloys .     I suppose they didn't count on them to last 80 years

Watching along Mike and glad to see you in the shop.

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 08, 2024, 05:17:45 PM
Coolant Pump 2

Thank you all for looking in and especially to those who called in.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Dave, Getting back to the shop is a positive sign, even if it is only for two to three hours on a good day.

The first item made for the water pump was the main body, which incorporates the mounting flange and the inboard bearing. The first operation was some profile turning on the lathe. Followed by a visit to the mill to have the mounting flange profiled, the holes drilled and tapped.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1486smal.JPG)
(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1487smal.JPG)
(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1489smal.JPG)
(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1490smal.JPG)
(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1491smal.JPG)



The two side plates for the pump involute came next. These were machined entirely on the mill. One side plate carries the outboard bearing and the lip seal, the other plate is almost identical, except for the center part which connects to the water inlet elbow.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1493smal.JPG)
(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1497smal.JPG)
(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1499smal.JPG)
(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1505smal.JPG)



Stay tuned

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: steamer on February 08, 2024, 05:20:27 PM
Mike I know your have a blast cabinet   do you keep it outside the shop

Dave
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 08, 2024, 05:29:41 PM
Hello Dave,

My blast cabinet is quite small but more than adequate for model engine parts. It measures about a metre (3 foot) cube. It's mounted on wheels so I can take it outside to use (when it's not raining!!). I would not want any stray wind blown abrasive or beads to find their way onto or into the machines. Last year I bought a big tub of fine aerospace grade glass beads which get used over and over again. The glass beads don't seem to brake down into dust like the abrasive grit.

As you can see from the photos above, the beads leave a pleasing pearl finish on the materiel.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Laurentic on February 08, 2024, 07:15:07 PM
Mike - good to hear you are fit and well enough to venture once more out to the shed - but surely you must have some sort of heating there, even if it is just a cheap electric fan heater?  I have that, not that I use it much these days, and a little oil filled radiator which I find works quite well indeed.  Takes just 1600W of juice max.  You need to keep warm out there!

Loved the latest work, you haven't lost your touch, but how was the pump main body held for the base profiling and hole drilling/tapping?  It looks like it was stuck to a piece of perspex held in the vice, what did you use to stick it if that were so, and how was it removed?

This whole engine continues to absolutely amaze me, with its attention to detail and complexity of design: Merc had loads of resources back in the day, you have just what's in your shed, what you accomplish is simply astonishing.

Chris.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 08, 2024, 08:40:18 PM
Hello Chris,

Good to hear from you again.

Over the years, I have tried several methods to heat the outside workshop; diesel heater (unreliable and thirsty) oil filled radiator, great for providing background heating assisted by fan heaters to quickly warm the air. For many years I have left the oil filled radiator on continuously, at a low setting, to keep the workshop structure and machinery's ironwork at a reasonable temperature and damp free. The fan heater would then bring the air in work-space to a comfortable temperature in an hour or so.

I have not been using the workshop on a regular basis over the last winter and so could not justify the expense of constantly heating an unoccupied shed. Now I need to use the fan heater for several hours before attempting any work. You can heat the air reasonably quickly but the ironwork is still stone cold (and liable to condensation). Spring and the warmer weather will be with us again in a couple of months.

Work-holding while milling parts? I like to use 10 mm thick perspex as a sacrificial fixture plate. It's a convenient, easily worked material and far less expensive than aluminium plate. For the pump main body; I first machined the through hole to size and drilled and tapped the three M2.5 bolt holes for the flange bolts in the perspex plate. I then coordinate drill the flange clearance holes on the pump main body part, which was then bolted in place before the profiling work and the remaining holes were drilled and tapped. That photo is a bit misleading, as I realised I had not taken a photo at the time and popped the part back into the cleaned up machine a day later.

I used a similar method to machine the two side plates. If you look carefully, you will see three of the outer holes, which locate the part, are plugged with an aluminium rod. The aluminium rod was a reasonably tight fit and was further secured with a dab of superglue. The top of the rod became flat when I faced off the upper surface of the side plates. New sacrificial aluminium rods were pressed and glued in, when the side plates were flipped over to work the opposite side. This achieved excellent concentricity on both sides of the part.

Mercedes may have had loads more resources, however they used them well and achieved the seemingly impossible task of designing and building the two race winning W165 cars in just eight months. Me?? I have been at this project for over eight years with still a long way to go!!!!!!!!!  Don't expect to win any races at the end either.

Cheers   :cheers:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Laurentic on February 08, 2024, 10:16:52 PM
Hi Mike,

This winter I have been leaving my oil filled radiator on in my shed on a (quite) low setting as you have done in the past.  It is the first time I have tried this and I quite like it; even when it was minus a few degC outside, inside the shed was about 8-9 degC lowest and quickly came up if I went out there.  I did appreciate the machines not being absolutely stone cold when I came to use them too.  I can quite understand you not being able to justify it this year but!.  I have got an old French log burner, very smal one, out there, too small really to burn logs, you would need to satnd by it and feed very small logs into it all day, but it works quite well on charcoal and very well on household smokless coal available from your local garage, but for various reason have not done so this year, the electric alternatives have worked quite well instead.

Thanks for the info on your work holding methods.  10mm perspex is now on my 'must have' list!  All metal seems to be getting ever more expensive each time you look.  Your first picture - taken the day after - suggested you might have used some sort of glue, but drilling and tapping for the securing bolts makes a great deal of sense.  I also went back and found the aluminium sacrificial rods, had just sort of glossed over that when I first looked, shows that I need to look at each picture more intently and carefully in future!  I must say, reading build logs like yours on this forum and seeing how others tackle work holding is so informative, I find I learn so much.

You may not win a race at the end, but you will win awards for absolutely brilliant model making on completion.

Chris.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 08, 2024, 11:39:51 PM
Hello Chris,

It looks like I may have unintentionally mislead you. My excuse is I have reached that stage where I may not be able to recall what I did last week but still have vivid and accurate memories of events from fifty years ago. Anyway, I went and looked back at some of the other photos. It seems that I used the three super-glued aluminium pin trick on the main pump body as well, so that I could get in to machine the back face of the flange.

Hi Mike,
..............snip...

You may not win a race at the end, but you will win awards for absolutely brilliant model making on completion.

Chris.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Ha ha, That would be nice, but I fear it will never happen.  :ShakeHead:     Other than the Midland Show at the end of the year; there are no other (big) model engineering shows scheduled in the UK this year. As I have said several times before, the Midland Show organisers and I do not exactly see eye to eye, regarding their poor treatment of the people who exhibit the models on display or in the competition.

Cheers   :cheers:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Laurentic on February 09, 2024, 10:35:18 AM
.............. My excuse is I have reached that stage where I may not be able to recall what I did last week but still have vivid and accurate memories of events from fifty years ago. ...........


Wellcome to the club Mike - I've been a member for years and years, ..............I think!

Chris
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 09, 2024, 06:25:06 PM
Coolant Pump 3

The coolant pump impeller started life as 8mm thick block of HE30 aluminium, bolted to a sacrificial plate. You can see I faced off the top surface of the sacrificial plate to ensure everything was 'square' before I started

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1520smal.JPG)


Next, the radial vanes were roughed out using a 6mm diameter cutter with radiused corners. The radiused cutter produced the nice small filet at the roots of the vanes. The sloped top surface of each vane was then cut, using a standard 6mm end mill

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1522smal.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1525smal.JPG)


The hub of the impeller was profiled using a 2.0mm ball mill, before the completed impeller was cut free from the original material block. (Thought, they would make into nice pair of cuff links)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1526smal.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1531smal.JPG)


A small bevel gear is attached to the other end of the impeller drive shaft. I saved some time by buying six ready made bevel gears from China. How do they do it? The price of a finished gear from China was less then the price of the bar of steel stock I would have needed to make them myself.
The rear of the standard gear needed to be reshaped to match the design in the M165 engine. The back face of the bevel gear needed to be thinned and the hub shortened. The bevel gears were delivered in a hardened condition. Fortunately, this ceramic lathe insert had no difficulty with the hardened material, slow speed and feed and light depth of cut. The interrupted cut across the back of the gear teeth made a lot of noise but fortunately did not chip the insert

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1506smal.JPG)


Here you can see the coolant pumps impeller sub assembly, all cleaned up and ready to go.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1552smal.JPG)


This will give you some idea of how the bevel gears fit together inside the front of the crank case. It's a tight fit but nothing touches. I will cross drill and pin the bevel gears to the coolant pump shafts later, when I have sorted the positions needed to mesh all the gears together

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1564smal.JPG)



Stay tuned

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on February 09, 2024, 07:07:52 PM
Glad to see you back in the workshop  :) That's some nice work on the impellers  :ThumbsUp: I make a lot of use of small bore plumbing fittings on my engines, if they will fit it's much easier that making small radius bends in tubing.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: crueby on February 09, 2024, 07:22:11 PM
Lots of little parts in there, looking great!   :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 09, 2024, 07:39:14 PM
Lots of little parts in there, looking great!   :popcorn: :popcorn:

Sometimes they seem endless. All made as close to the full size item as possible.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on February 09, 2024, 08:16:57 PM
I've been away most evenings in this week (= no time to look here) - so what a Thrill to see you back in the Lab workshop Mike  :whoohoo: making more Jewels  :praise2:

Seriously - it is great to hear and see that you feel up to some enjoyment again  :cheers:

Per
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: jcge on February 09, 2024, 09:59:16 PM
Its easy to see how you have 8 years in this project Mike....your work is sublime !!
Regards
John
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 10, 2024, 01:01:30 PM
Thanks, everyone for calling in. Your good wishes are much appreciated.

I actually started work on the coolant pump before Christmas. I think I said earlier, I can manage about two to three hours on a good day, so progress is a slow as a glacier, But that's OK, it is progress and things are still getting made. :ThumbsUp:

Yesterday's short workshop session was a washout.....quite literally. We have just had four days of continuous heavy rain, the ground is saturated, the fields are flooded. Yesterday's time was wasted, pumping more than 10 gallons of flood water out of the workshop. Today is dry again.   :cartwheel:

Cheers    :cheers:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Kim on February 10, 2024, 05:00:00 PM
Sorry to hear about your drown shop, Mike. Hope nothing was ruined.

Really enjoying seeing your progress on your beautiful engine!  :popcorn: :popcorn:

Kim
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 10, 2024, 05:28:12 PM
Hello Kim,

No, thankfully nothing water damaged.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Sadly, with the invention of 'global warming' this flooding has become a recurring problem. Torrential rain water-logs the earth ( poor natural drainage) and the ground water wells up through cracks in the concrete floor and through the lower brickwork. Over the years, I have made many attempts the seal the floor and lower walls  but with no lasting effect. I have now learned to live with the problem; my engines are kept indoors, everything at ground level in the workshop is now stored in washing-up bowls and I have purchased a powerful Kracher 'dry and wet' vacuum cleaner to suck up the water.  :toilet_claw:

Cheers   :cheers:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: petertha on February 10, 2024, 06:28:54 PM
Glad to see you back Mike. Not to detract your post but I delved into this issue several years ago. Structures built on more permeable gravel or till (aka river beds as recent as recent glacial events) are really prone to this kind of water encroachment if aquifer / water tables rise. That describes the surface geology around where I live courtesy of Rocky Mountains. Add subsurface freezing conditions & now we have a nasty heaving mechanism that exaggerates the problem every winter because ice occupies more volume than water. Its easy to say in hindsight build the structure higher but that of course is probably both expensive & impractical. But I have seen retrofit examples where basically a slot was cut into the concrete floor. Sometimes its in the middle if that's where existing cracks or natural fractures are located. Sometimes its around the periphery, even new concrete floor pours if the bottom water issue is anticipated. The point is once water comes in from below, the slot now becomes a lower elevation 'canal' whereby water can now be contained & directed to a sump or some kind of pump 'get it out of there' mechanism. The slot is of course covered with a plate so its flush with the floor. Sometimes the slot is lined with impermeable coating on the sides or contains a for-purpose permeable tube with bottom holes meant for this drainage / transport purpose. Anyways, some of the retrofits I read about were very successful. Food for thought. Water & machines & wood & drywall make for bad conditions.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 10, 2024, 07:58:11 PM
Hello pertertha,

Thank you for your excellent analysis of the problem and one possible solution. However, I will resist being distracted down that particular rabbit hole.

You could always open a new topic if you wish.


Mike

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Laurentic on February 11, 2024, 05:57:06 PM

Oh my word - nightmare, not only is your shed cold but also very, very wet! 10 galls is a hell of a lot to have to pump out.  You have my sympathy - do hope it stays dry now.

The problem has been that we have had a very wet autumn into winter with prolonged rainfall over those months.  As you say, the ground is now so waterlogged it cannot take anymore, so every rainfall now just runs off the ground and floods the roads and land.  Our village has suffered several flooded roads in recent weeks because of it, the rainwater has just poured off the fields - and caught out all the idiot drivers who see no reason to slow down going thorugh the floodwater, that is, until their car engine tells them that it doesn't like floodwater, konks out and leaves them stranded.  We've had a few of those!

The floods are also not helped by various policies put into place by authorities that should know better, like building houses on flood plains - called flod plains for a reason, not keeping rivers dredged to get the water away quicker and removing trees from higher ground which in tha past absorbed the water.

 But it doesn't help you any, do hope you can get back to proper shed activities soon, look forward to reading the results.

Chris
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 12, 2024, 03:18:31 PM
Coolant pump 4

That’s enough talk about flooding, so let’s get back to the plot. The next parts to be made should be much more interesting.

The pump involute casing on the full size engine would have been a hollow aluminium alloy casting. It would have been possible to make one by lost wax casting, However, I chose the quicker route, which is to machine the model’s casing from solid. By necessity, the model’s involute casing needs to be machined in two halves, spit down the lateral centre line. The two half shells being screwed and glued together. Four small bumps were added to the perimeter for tiny M1.5 screws. They were non prototypical but designed to blend in and to be in sympathy with the overall style of the coolant pump.

I do not have 3D CADCAM software, so I had to hand generate the 3D tool paths necessary to create the flowing shape of the pump involute casing, using only 2D CAM software. I made the discussion to machine both the inside and outside surfaces of the two half shells using a 6mm dia. corner radius end mill with a 1.25mm corner radius. I chose to use a corner radius (AKA bull) mill in preference to a 6mm dia ball mill because the curved cutting edge speed of a ball mill diminishes to virtually zero velocity on the cutter’s centre line, whereas the curved cutting edge speed of a corner radius mill remains high.

The involute casing’s curved outer surfaces were created by a series of waterline contours at the differing depths shown. I have found that generating the waterline contours with constant angle offsets (9*in this case) produces nice equal width facets, which you do not get with constant depth intervals.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1485smal.JPG)



This drawing shows how I created the tool paths for the 6mm corner radius end mill. I plot the locus of the cutter’s centre line at each angular offset, with the cutter’s curved surface tangential to the involute surface. Different layer colours are used for the different contours to help avoid confusion. My 2D CAM created a separate tool path file for each contour. The different contour tool paths are then edited together to make one large combined tool path file.

The outer half shell machining process started by bolting a 8mm thick slab of HE30 aluminium to a sacrificial plate. The first operations were to drill a circle of 2mm holes in what will be the side plate flange and then to contour the inner surfaces and central hole of the half shell.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1473smal.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1475smal.JPG)



The block was flipped over to machine the outer surfaces. Note, the block is now secured through the ring of 2mm holes, allowing the outer profile to be machined away vertically, using a standard end mill.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1479smal.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1480smal.JPG)


The cutter was changed to the 6mm corner radius mill to create the 3D curved surfaces. You can see how the tool path had to weave in and around the side plate flange. The final operations were to tap the side plate flange holes to M2.5 and the four outer holes to M1.5.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1482smal.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1483smal.JPG)

The whole process was then repeated for the inner half shell. This was more or less a mirror image, with the inclusion of an extra hole for the sideways coolant exit.

Here you can see all the parts of the coolant pump loosely assembled. The even spaced facets on the involute casing may look nice and pretty but they will be filed smooth during the next steps required to make the machined surfaces look more like those of a casting.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1534smal.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1533smal.JPG)

More to follow, so stay tuned.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: crueby on February 12, 2024, 04:10:11 PM
Beautiful result!   :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: RReid on February 12, 2024, 04:36:26 PM
Quote
The involute casing’s curved outer surfaces were created by a series of waterline contours at the differing depths shown. I have found that generating the waterline contours with constant angle offsets (9*in this case) produces nice equal width facets, which you do not get with constant depth intervals.
I thought you said that was enough talk about flooding.

Sorry, just kidding. Housing looks great. Almost looks wet. (oops, did it again). :cheers:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: cnr6400 on February 12, 2024, 04:53:06 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Kim on February 12, 2024, 06:32:44 PM
Wow, Mike!  That's magnificent!  Love the manual way you created the tool path with your 2D CAD.  That's pretty ingenious. And the results are beautiful!

Kim
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 12, 2024, 07:37:47 PM
Thank you all for calling in, your support and encouragement is always appreciated

I thought you said that was enough talk about flooding.
Sorry, just kidding. Housing looks great. Almost looks wet. (oops, did it again). :cheers:

Ron, I will let you get away with those terrible jokes

Kim, I get a great amount of satisfaction from making the fullest use of the tools available to me. The 2D CADCAM stuff keeps the grey cells nimble and the CNC stuff keeps my figures active. It's win, win for me

Cheers   :cheers:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on February 12, 2024, 09:34:51 PM
Great looking result Mike and I too admire your planing and execution  :praise2:

Looking forward to see more  :popcorn:

Per       :cheers:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 13, 2024, 01:45:42 PM
Thank you Per. CNC is inherently a very structured environment. You need to plan every move and tool-path long before the cutter touches metal.

The first of the finishing processes to make the coolant pump resemble a casting was to remove those attractive facets with a small, but sharp, file and wet-n-dry abrasive paper, followed by a visit to the bead-blast cabinet.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1557smal.JPG)



Next, the small bore copper fittings were all bead-blasted and nickel plated. I followed crueby's low cost nickel plating method. The silver-white colour and the bead-blasted surface texture made the copper fittings resemble cast aluminium.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1554smal.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1555smal.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1558smal.JPG)



The side plates are secured by 3mm long M2.5 bolt. I only had 6mm and 4mm long bolts available. I reduced their length by screwing them into a 3mm thick steel plate and grinding the excess off on a belt sander. The ground ends of the bolts cleaned up nicely as they were un-screwed from the plate.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1565smal.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1568smal.JPG)



Here, finally, you can see the completed coolant pump installed on the side of the engine. You can also see the additional pipework, bypass 'fix', running from the coolant pump to the cylinder block on the opposite side. The additional pipework tucks neatly, almost out of sight, under the the superchargers. I have more work to do on the final bends to make the fit a little better.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1576smal.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1577smal.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1578smal.JPG)



Looking through my historic records, I believe the additional bypass pipework was install  by Mercedes Benz sometime in the late 1940/ 1950's after the two W165 race cars were returned to Stuttgart after being interned by Switzerland in 1944.

Hope you enjoyed the coolant pump journey

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: RReid on February 13, 2024, 03:26:35 PM
Quote
CNC is inherently a very structured environment. You need to plan every move and tool-path long before the cutter touches metal.
Hi Mike. I love how effective your "casting" technique is. I was just wondering if you generally do a "dry" run before installing a cutting tool? In my limited and self-taught experience programming and running a CNC mill, I broke a few tools and drilled one hole in the table before I learned to do that. Usually it was the rapid positioning moves that got me.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 13, 2024, 05:00:34 PM
Thanks Ron,

I have available two CAM packages: EstlCAM and a slightly less capable DesKAM. Both packages allow me to visualise the tool-path motion before I commit to the cutting tool. The DesKAM also allows editing, which can be very useful.

My LinuxCNC controller allows me to visualise the tool-path as it is being machined.

Some people set their 'rapid moves' to move at the speed of light. That may look impressive but is potentially risky. I prefer to set my 'rapid move' conservatively, to little more than 25 inches per minute. LinuxCNC has a slide button, which allows the operator to turn down all the feed rates; both 'rapid move' and commanded feed rate. This can be very useful when running a new, untried program for the first time. You can turn down all the feed rates to be within human reaction time and press the 'stop' or 'pause' button if things are looking like they are going astray. Turn the feed rates back to normal when you are confident of the program.

So, I use a combination of tool-path visualisation, experience and the feed rate throttle control. But an unwanted 'rapid move' in the wrong place will usually result in a broken tool.

Cheers    :cheers:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jo on February 13, 2024, 05:04:41 PM
Looking really good Mike  :)

Next, the small bore copper fittings were all bead-blasted and nickel plated. I followed crueby's low cost nickel plating method. The silver-white colour and the bead-blasted surface texture made the copper fittings resemble cast aluminium.

I am feeling cheated: I need either a description of how to do it or a link to where Chris explains it to us  :stickpoke:

Jo
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 13, 2024, 05:08:52 PM
Looking really good Mike  :)

Next, the small bore copper fittings were all bead-blasted and nickel plated. I followed crueby's low cost nickel plating method. The silver-white colour and the bead-blasted surface texture made the copper fittings resemble cast aluminium.

I am feeling cheated: I need either a description of how to do it or a link to where Chris explains it to us  :stickpoke:

Jo

Hello Jo,

Just ask Chris, send him a PM, that's what I did.   :happyreader: :happyreader:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: crueby on February 13, 2024, 05:42:34 PM
Looking really good Mike  :)

Next, the small bore copper fittings were all bead-blasted and nickel plated. I followed crueby's low cost nickel plating method. The silver-white colour and the bead-blasted surface texture made the copper fittings resemble cast aluminium.

I am feeling cheated: I need either a description of how to do it or a link to where Chris explains it to us  :stickpoke:

Jo

Hello Jo,

Just ask Chris, send him a PM, that's what I did.   :happyreader: :happyreader:

Mike
Hi Jo,
Back in March 2021 I did an article on nickel plating for Live Steam & Outdoor Railroading magazine to kick off my Shop Eleves Corner column. The techniques were based on what I had learned online from a number of articles/videos. This online article on plating is great:
https://www.instructables.com/High-Quality-and-safe-Nickel-Plating/ (https://www.instructables.com/High-Quality-and-safe-Nickel-Plating/)
I do basically the same thing, just with a variable power supply rather than a battery since I have the supply left over from my w*rk days. In the article I showed using a DC wall adapter that output 3 or 5 volts (forget which). Same end results. This website also references a similar technique for copper plating. No nasty acids or anything, though the solution made is toxic so you want a dedicated container rather than reusing a kitchen one. Get a container big enough for your parts, with a lid for storage, all plastic since metal a metal pan/pot would contaminate the solution.


There are companies that will sell you nickel acetate solution for plating - big ripoff since you can make your own from common kitchen white vinegar and a pinch of salt - the article includes that. You can buy pure nickel rods to use as the source for the plating, I got mine off Amazon, they are about 3/8" diameter, came as 6 or 8 inch length, and cut it into two shorter pieces to use in plating.

I'm doing a lot of nickel plating like this on my current Kearsarge winch build, have used it on most of my other models too - lots on the Stanley engine.

Hope that helps, any questions just ping me!
Chris

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jo on February 13, 2024, 07:28:20 PM
Thanks Chris  ;D

What Nickel items do I have knocking around the house I could sacrifice :thinking:

Jo
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: crueby on February 13, 2024, 07:38:22 PM
Thanks Chris  ;D

What Nickel items do I have knocking around the house I could sacrifice :thinking:

Jo
They would need to be pure (99% at least) nickel - if they are just plated, or an alloy, that will mess up the plating solution as the other metals get pulled out by the process. You don't even want the copper wire that is suspending the nickel piece to touch the solution. If the solution gets contaminated (easy to tell since it is no longer a translucent green), its ruined.  A pure nickel rod is only a couple dollars, and will last a long time. I used the same one for about 5 years till it was eaten away.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 13, 2024, 07:38:58 PM
Thanks Chris  ;D

What Nickel items do I have knocking around the house I could sacrifice :thinking:

Jo

Evenin Jo

Don't bother looking. You can buy 99% pure nickel electrodes from ebay for £10 or so.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Laurentic on February 13, 2024, 09:56:29 PM
Absolutely brilliant Mike, loved the way to carved that pump out of the solid, and then finished it off like it was a casting.  Brilliant.

Glad that you have made it out to the shed again.  It was great to see the pictures and read how you did it when I emerged - for a short while I fear - from another atttack of my continuing "cold that is quite unlike any other cold i've ever had" cold, now in it's fourth, or is it fifth, week this evening, cheered me up no end.

Chris  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 13, 2024, 11:08:31 PM
Hello Chris,

I am pleased I was able to cheer you up a bit. Sounds like you are having a rough time. Have you been able to see a doctor about it?

Don't be fooled,  although I have managed to stretch the coolant pump story out to six days. In reality, it has taken nearly three months of slow, intermittent work with rarely more than a few hours in the shed on a good day. I guess things will go quite again until I have finished another part at the same glacial slow pace.

Cheers   :cheers:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: gerritv on February 14, 2024, 01:58:44 AM
- from another atttack of my continuing "cold that is quite unlike any other cold i've ever had" cold, now in it's fourth, or is it fifth, week this evening, cheered me up no end.

Chris  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
My wife just came out of a 4.5 week cycle like that, very unuusal for us. And first real colds in 4 years. It's quite dibilitating.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Laurentic on February 14, 2024, 01:46:36 PM
Hello Chris,

I am pleased I was able to cheer you up a bit. Sounds like you are having a rough time. Have you been able to see a doctor about it?

.................

Mike

Hi Mike,

Actually seeing a doctor seems so last century these days!  But yes, I talk to the receptionist and the doctor texts me back and the receptionist books me in for tests.  He is more concerned by other issues I have I think, but he's on the case.  At least he doesn't waste time and gets on with it - very positive, even if I don't get to actually see him!

As for the "cold that is quite unlike any other cold I've ever had" cold - there seems to be a lot of it going about Gerrity!

Don't worry about the slow progress Mike, with your stuff its always well worth waiting for.

So just sitting here, watching.......

Chris  :wine1: :happyreader:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: petertha on February 16, 2024, 06:11:18 PM
Very nice, Mike. Dumb question time because I have no experience with these pumps. Is this view peeking at the scroll? (if that's what its called, the internal rotating part). I cant quite tell by your housing drawings but is the blade/cavity circular in section or some other kind of profile? What kind of clearances are involved? Does the scroll spin on bushings or bearings or? What kind of max RPM it would see & what kind of fluid rate & pressure would you be expecting? Have you bench run it yet or still some more work required?

The finished housing looks so realistic to a well made casting, just beautiful work. Almost enough to make me curious about CNC. Almost LOL.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 16, 2024, 07:26:19 PM
Hello petertha,

Maybe this sketch will help. Compare it to the engine cross section drawing in Reply # 1026

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/PUMP3.jpg)


It's a common or garden centrifugal pump. Nothing special

The purple snail shaped outer pump casing is known as the involute (from it's shape). Sometimes called the scroll.

The rotating yellow part is the impeller, AKA rotor, It spins at about 2/3 engine speed, therefore 5000 RPM max. The shaft is suspended on roller bearings. Impeller clearances, to the side plates (green), are about 10 thou. just to stop it rubbing. You can see the impeller; how it was made and how it is mounted in Reply # 1039.

This coolant pump is almost identical in concept to a centrifugal supercharger or turbocharger compressor. The air/ fluid enters at the eye of the impeller and is flung out and rotated within the involute and is ejected at speed and /or pressure.

Not measured the flow yet, but there will be more than enough to keep the coolant circulating. I do not actually need that much, as I have no way to load the engine to produce maximum horsepower.

As for CNC....... CNC do's NOT make thing easier, but it does make difficult shapes possible.

Cheers   :cheers:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: ddmckee54 on February 16, 2024, 10:28:43 PM
As for CNC....... CNC do's NOT make thing easier, but it does make difficult shapes possible.

Inheritance machining recently did a video where he "raced" a CNC mill by manually machining a complex part for the Kentucky engineering students' Formula race car build.  According to him, CNC and manual milling came out about even in time required to make the first part, if you include CAD and CAM development time.  They both required about the same man-hours of time.  I think he put it quite well when he said that where CNC shines is the time it takes to make the 2nd part, and every part after that.

Don
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: fumopuc on February 16, 2024, 10:48:43 PM


As for CNC....... CNC do's NOT make thing easier, but it does make difficult shapes possible.

Cheers   :cheers:

Mike


Hi Mike,
100% agreed.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 16, 2024, 11:04:38 PM
As for CNC....... CNC do's NOT make thing easier, but it does make difficult shapes possible.

Inheritance machining recently did a video where he "raced" a CNC mill by manually machining a complex part for the Kentucky engineering students' Formula race car build.  According to him, CNC and manual milling came out about even in time required to make the first part, if you include CAD and CAM development time.  They both required about the same man-hours of time.  I think he put it quite well when he said that where CNC shines is the time it takes to make the 2nd part, and every part after that.

Don

Hello Don,

If we are talking about normal machine-vice/ mill-table work; then I would agree with the manual milling/ CNC time comparison for a single item. However when the work involves circles and curves requiring the use of rotary tables etc. There is no contest; the CNC will win every time. Imagine how you would have made the Pump Involute Casing manually and how long that would have taken.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1534smal.JPG)

I still say;

 "As for CNC....... CNC do's NOT make things easier , but it does make difficult shapes possible.

Cheers   :cheers:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Jasonb on February 17, 2024, 07:10:30 AM
It turned out nicely Mike and if you had not told us the original was one piece then the bolt lugs on the side would have just looked like OEM

As I said in the RLE thread recently CNC really stands for Cuts Nice Curves. Not watched the video but I don't see why CAD time should be added to the CNC part as there would have been some ink on paper needed to manually design and draw the part or machine it from CAD produced 2Ddrawings. Even CAM needs to be offset against the pre planning of how he was going to make that part as I expect he thought long and hard about it before starting machining including deciding which part suited his race. I certainly think about how I'm going to make  apart before I start cutting be that at design stage or when I get a set of drawings.

Not wanting to drag it too far away and into a CNC thread I'll just mention that the Radius corner vs. ball end is always a bit of a toss up as to which is going to be best. As you say the cutting edge of the corner radius tools is moving faster so generally a better cut and less clogging, down side is the radius is usually smaller than a ball cutter of similar overall diameter so scallops are more noticable. I tend to go with ball nose 90% of the time and use 4-flute cutters rather than the traditional 2-flute which can speed up feed rates and also run a smaller step between passes typically 0.2 to 0.25mm but the CAM I have makes that easier and if having to do it with 2D paths I would no doubt opt for less. Now if we both had 5 axis we could tilt the work to use the faster moving bits of a ball nose cutter ;) maybe there is some merit in using both tools, the radius corner on the crests and and valley bottoms but the ball as you get to the sides which are more vertical.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: MJM460 on February 17, 2024, 11:21:24 AM
Mike, that little pump is a Jewell.  Pity it has to be hidden in the crowd of amazing work you have put into this project.  Its worth a display on its own.

I don’t say much, but eagerly await each new update.  The superlatives run out so quickly on such an amazing build. 

So glad to see you are up to getting back in the shop and making some progress.

MJM460

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 17, 2024, 07:55:19 PM
Thank you all for calling in, It's good to have your company on this long journey.

MJM  The coolant pump is not exactly hidden, it's like a wart on the chin of the engine.   :Lol:

With the ever decreasing number of model engineering shows; our MEM forum has become a virtual model show. Each new part gets it's brief moment in the spotlight.

Jason   CNC really stands for Cuts Nice Curves     I like that!!!   and it's sums it up so well.

Cheers   :cheers:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Charles Lamont on February 17, 2024, 08:27:31 PM
Mike, what size is this pump? Impeller diameter, for example?  I think I must be misunderstanding the drawing in post #1071 as I read it as having a ball race directly behind the impeller?
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 17, 2024, 08:38:37 PM
Hello Charles

The impeller is 25mm dia and the blade have a max depth of 5.3mm. You can see that it is tapered toward the tip.

You read the drawing correctly. The seal and the bearing are drawn the wrong way round; the seal should be adjacent to the impeller.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Steamer5 on February 21, 2024, 04:47:45 AM
Hi Mike,

 Just had a catch-up…. Gob smacking work!! Absolutely amazing!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 21, 2024, 08:20:04 AM
 Hello down under on the 'Naki'

Thanks Kerrin.

This engine has been a very long, enjoyable, journey. I get to talk with many nice friendly people along the way.
Each new part is a whole new adventure on it's own.

Cheers   :cheers:

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on February 29, 2024, 06:05:28 PM
Excellent  :praise2: I think I will try a centrifugal water pump for the Junkers. The previous engines have used gear pumps.
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on February 29, 2024, 08:04:02 PM
Thanks Roger,

Out of interest, why are you thinking of changing from your tried and tested gear pumps

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on March 01, 2024, 01:13:20 PM
Two reasons:

1) Experimenting with something new.

2) The output characteristic may be better than the more linear one from the gear pump as speed and load increase (dependent on clearances/leakage).
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on March 01, 2024, 02:49:50 PM
Hello Roger,

Charles Lamont did a lot of practical testing of various types of centrifugal water pumps and reported his findings around October of last year. I am sure you will find his work of great help with your proposed water pump designs.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on March 01, 2024, 05:03:27 PM
Thank you Mike, his research was one of of my drivers in this  :)
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on March 25, 2024, 09:27:17 PM
External Oil Scavenge Pump

Back in the 1930's, Mercedes had a strange fascination for designing multiple pumps, of all descriptions, into their Silver Arrows race cars. In the dry sump of the W165, there is a battery of 6 oil pumps (see post #191) to provide fresh oil for the crankshaft and big-end roller bearings, a second pressure pump to feed the four overhead camshafts and several scavenge pumps to scavenge (suck away) the used oil and return it to the external oil tank via the oil filter and oil cooler. There was a scavenge pump for the front of the dry sump, a second scavenge pump for the rear of the dry sump, another to remove the used oil from the camshaft bearings and a fourth one to drain the rear (clutch end) crankshaft bearing.

In addition to the 6 oil pumps, inside the dry sump, there is another scavenge pump for the supercharger bearings, a large capacity fuel pump and the main coolant water pump, all mounted externally at the front of the engine. And, if you like, you can add the two stage supercharger as two more huge air pumps. No expense (or complexity) was spared in extracting the maximum output from their engines.

 This cross section shows the layout of the pumps and superchargers at the front of the engine. I built the water coolant pump (lower left) earlier, now it is the turn of the scavenge pump for the supercharger (lower right). This will be followed by the large fuel pump, driven by the scavenge pump shaft (extreme, lower right), in due course

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/SCAVENGE.jpg)


The oil supply for the two supercharger compressors is supplied, at low pressure, via the internal drillings from the large oil filter located to the right of the compressors. The four supercharger rotors rotate at 1.25 times crankshaft speed and therefore reach 10,000 RPM. The oil level in the supercharge rotor bearings needs to be carefully controlled; just sufficient to wet the roller bearings but no more. If you look again at the cross section drawing, you will see horizontal drillings in the supercharger housing which set the bearing oil levels(shown in black). These drilling are connected to the external scavenge pump by mess of external flexible pipework.

The supercharger scavenge pump takes the form of an internal gear pump i.e the two interlocking gears of different sizes with one rotating inside the other. Apparently this internal gear pump arrangement is particularly good at providing suction, particularly at high air to oil ratios.

In my "come in handy, one day" box were two oil pumps from some 50cc Honda Cub engines. They had been patiently waiting their turn for more than twenty years. The Honda internal gear pump parts are an ideal size for my needs, with a little modification. The two hardened steel gears, both rotate within the cast aluminium housing. The suction and delivery ports for the pump are cast into the housing.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1579smal.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1580smal.JPG)


My first task was to remove all the excess Honda material, leaving only the working core of the pump to be incorporated into the Mercedes scavenge pump.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1586smal.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1583smal.JPG)


The parts from the two pumps were temporarily stored in two separate plastic bags to avoid mixing the sets.

More to follow; so stay tuned

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on March 25, 2024, 09:58:10 PM
Every single one of my Fourstroke Motorcycles has had this kind of Oilpump - and they work really well  :)  :ThumbsUp:

Only one exception - do not under any circumstance let it rotate too slowly if you need it to deliver Pressure for bearings  :zap:  On most of mine, the lovest allowable RPM is 1150 - according to the Service Manuals ....

Great to see another chapter, Mike  :Love:

Per   :cheers:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Laurentic on March 26, 2024, 10:42:29 AM
Now I haven't seen a pump quite like that, presumably the outer gear ring is fully floating, so has a big need for the pumped medium to keep it fully lubricated and to reduce wear, or at least keep wear to a minimum.  Interesting.  Can see why it needs to pump at a minimum rotation speed.

Chris
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on March 26, 2024, 06:27:25 PM
The race engines designed and built by Mercedes Benz during the 1930' Silver Arrows era were by far the most powerful engines of their day, now we would call it cutting edge technology. The use of hand welded fabricated steel cylinder blocks, the multiple oil pumps in the dry sump and the external coolant pump and the supercharger scavenge pump (internal gear layout) were a common design feature on all their engine designs. Was that a classic case of "If it ain't broke, then don't fix it"?.

The housing for two external scavenge pumps were profile turned for 40 mm diameter aluminium bar stock, parted off and trimmed to length in the lathe.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1587smal.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1589smal.JPG)



The housings were then transferred to the mill to enable the internal features and outside profile to be machined. The large pocket was machined to exactly fit the modified Honda pump components. Note the two oil transfer passages which connect the pump inlet and outlets to the outside face of the pump.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1594smal.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1593smal.JPG)



The housings were cleaned up and the Honda oil pump components were the pressed into the pump housings. I used a little Loctite sealant to seal the joints. The two oil transfer ports can be seen peeking out over to the left.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1633smal.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1636smal.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1637smal.JPG)


The outer cover and pipe connections to the outside world, will be completed in the next installment from Vixen's Den.

Stay tuned

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Laurentic on March 26, 2024, 06:36:32 PM
Like that Mike - very neat job.

Chris
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on March 26, 2024, 06:44:35 PM
Thanks Chris,

I think myself lucky that the Honda Cub oil pumps were such a perfect match for the model W165 engine. And even more lucky to have two sitting in my "Come in handy, one day" box for more than twenty years just waiting for their day.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Admiral_dk on March 26, 2024, 08:01:01 PM
Looks like those pumps were made for your application Mike - beautiful as ever  :ThumbsUp:

But seriously - a great Hack / Repurpose  :praise2:

Chris - I never seen any of those pumps not outlasting the rest of the Engine. I have seen the result of running them too slow and got at least one ruined Cylinder Head in the basement to show for it (No I didn't commit the Crime).

Per    :cheers:

Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Laurentic on March 26, 2024, 11:27:54 PM
Per - I am sure that the design of these pumps was good, given that Honda had used them on the Cub.  I have just never seen that design before, but now I have I very much like it, there is a certain simplicity to it that appeals.  I have lead a sheltered life away from motorcycles!

Just out of interest Mike, what sort of sizes are we looking at here for those gears?

Chris
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Roger B on March 27, 2024, 10:44:58 AM
That's a very neat pair of oil pumps  :praise2:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on March 27, 2024, 04:39:59 PM
Thanks for calling in guys, and to everyone else who took the time to look in.

Chris.  These days, the internal gear pump configuration is also widely used in automobile engines as well as bike engines. It is also sometimes called a rotor or gerotor pump. They are very robust and can be expected to outlast the life of a car engine without ever seeing the light of day. You may have one in your own car engine without realising it!!

The rear face of the pump is completely flat, except for the two inlet/outlet port drillings; somehow that stage escaped the camera. The outer cover blank was then attached to a sacrificial plate on the mill to machine the external features in stages. These include the outer profile, base flange, the two protruding bosses for the hose connections and the mounting face for the fuel pump.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1601smal.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1602smal.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1604smal.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1605smal.JPG)



A little handwork with a file rounded the edges of the machined work to make it look more like a casting. Then the hose connection holes were drilled and tapped to intercept the inlet outlet ports previously drilled from the front face. Finally, the parts were given a quick visit to the bead blast cabinet to improve their cosmetic appearance.

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1649smal.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1651smal.JPG)

(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_1650smal.JPG)


The scavenge pump gets installed and connected up to the supercharger pipework in the next installment from Vixen's Den.

Stay tuned

Mike



Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Laurentic on March 27, 2024, 06:11:29 PM
Thanks for the info Mike.  My car may well have one installed without me knowing it, but the days when I delveved into car engines are long gone! Today's car are far too complex, need a computer to do anything, far too many wires coming out of them, and I'm now far too big to get anywhere near them even if I wanted to!

The whole pump lookes very nice by the way.  What would be the diameter of those gears?

Chris
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: cnr6400 on March 27, 2024, 06:51:36 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Great work Mike!
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Vixen on March 27, 2024, 07:04:51 PM
Hello Chris,

Sorry, I forgot to give the gear dimensions in the earlier post. I believe the pump I used is from a 50cc Honda Cub engine, the outside diameter of the ring gear is 23mm and it's 3.2mm thick. I have another similar looking Honda Cub pump in the box, it measures 23mm diameter and is 5.5mm thick; almost double the capacity. I guess that it comes from one of the larger engines.

Quote: "The Honda Cub is a motorcycle with a four-stroke single-cylinder engine ranging in displacement from 49 to 124 cc (3.0 to 7.6 cu in). It has been in continuous manufacture since 1958 with production surpassing 100 million in 2017. making it the most produced motor vehicle in history."

Honda tend to get things right.

Mike
Title: Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
Post by: Laurentic on March 27, 2024, 10:29:36 PM
How funny, I looked at that photo of the gears and thought the OD of the gear was about 1" and thickness 1/8" but with a photo you never can tell - now you tell me i was not far out!  Many thanks for the confirmation.

"Honda tend to get things right". Thats why I thought if Honda had gone with such a pump it must be OK, a good 'un.  And yes, I saw a programme once that the Cub was such a winner for Honda for so long, as they got the package right, at the right time, for the right market, and the result was such a winner for so long.  Brilliant!

Chris
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