Model Engine Maker

Engines => Your Own Design => Topic started by: cfellows on August 09, 2015, 04:46:28 AM

Title: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on August 09, 2015, 04:46:28 AM
I've started a design for an internal combustion 2 cylinder horizontal engine. 

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/2%20Cyl%20Engine_zps0sgrwx0i.png?t=1439004001)

For as long as I can remember, I've always been drawn to the sound of the old John Deere tractors from the 1930's through the mid 1950's.  Although my engine, with it's air cooling and open crankcase departs from the John Deere tractor engines, it kind of has the right look and hopefully will have the right sound.  A number of other old tractors had 2 cylinder engines of similar operation.  These included the Waterloo Boy, forerunner to the John Deere, the Rumely Oil Pull, Hart Parr and probably others.  These engines all had big bores with the crankshaft journals 180 degrees apart, the idea being that crankshaft and pistons would be balanced, reducing or eliminating vibration, which could be a big problem for someone spending 10 or 12 hours a day plowing fields.  This also resulted in the distinctive, syncopated sound that these tractors shared.

My engine will use aluminum for the cylinder block, probably with cylinder liners.  The frame sides will be 1/4" angle iron with the bottom and front being cold rolled steel.  The plan for the 6" flywheel is a brass rim that I have on hand and the 6-spoked center milled from aluminum.  The camshaft will be mounted in the frame in front of and below the crankshaft with the pushrods passing beneath the cylinder to the rocker arms, mounted vertically.  A drive shaft with helical gears on either end will be mounted outside the engine frame to drive the camshaft.  Bore and stroke are .875" x 1.5", respectively.  The valves will be made from 5/16" drill rod, fuel intake will be from a single carburetor attached to the bottom of the cylinder head and exhaust will be out the top of the head.  I haven't quite figured out the ignition system yet, but hopefully inspiration will come before I get that far.

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Art K on August 09, 2015, 05:57:36 AM
Chuck,
This sounds like a great project!
Art
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Roger B on August 09, 2015, 06:18:37 AM
Looks like another good one to follow along with  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:  :wine1:
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: fumopuc on August 09, 2015, 06:27:08 AM
Hi Chuck, very interesting. I will following along.
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: ths on August 10, 2015, 12:22:43 PM
No stopping you. Will a tractor be built around it? Cheers, Hugh. And, PS, hope all is going we'll for you.
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: gbritnell on August 10, 2015, 12:29:12 PM
Hi Chuck,
Another unique design from the desk of Chuck Fellows! I'll be watching.
gbritnell
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on August 10, 2015, 12:30:54 PM
Great stuff chuck. I will be following with interest.---Brian
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on August 10, 2015, 01:06:38 PM
Another great project to look forward to Chuck!! I will be following along also.  :popcorn:

Bill
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on August 10, 2015, 03:41:56 PM
Thanks for the comments and encouragement.  This weekend I ordered an ignition module from Roy Scholl at S/S Machine & Engineering.  Turns out he had several custom ignition modules with twin coils that should work out well.  Both coils fire at the same time which suits my plan for waste fire ignition to avoid the need for a distributor.

Chuck

Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Don1966 on August 10, 2015, 03:51:51 PM
Hi Chuck, just catching up on this built and will be checking in to see more progress. I grew up with a John
Deere tractor and hope the sound comes out the same. I have some good memories of those days. Good to see you on another venture bud.

 :popcornsmall:
Don
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on August 11, 2015, 05:09:41 AM
Thanks, Don.

Here is an updated drawing. 

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/2CylEngine_zpsmm4abq6u.jpg)

I've modified the head and added some bits.

If you download the PDF file below, open it with Adobe Acrobat and click the picture, you can then click and hold the left mouse button down and swing it around in 3D for different views.

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on August 23, 2015, 03:09:10 AM
I've been reluctant to start cutting metal until I had the design a little further along.  So, at this point, I feel like it's close enough I can start on some parts.  Here are some drawings of the design at this point...

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/EngineV1_zpsd3uegd9l.jpg?t=1440208901)

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/EngineV2_zpsmlfd0cpe.jpg?t=1440208905)

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/EngineV4_zpsbcvkqbfn.jpg?t=1440208905)

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/EngineV3_zpspegplruy.jpg?t=1440208905)

As you can see, I've added a few parts and simplified the design of the head quite a bit.  I like the new simpler design better.  So, I decided to start machining on the head since it adds more design challenges than perhaps any other part.  Here, I've started with 1/2" thick piece of aluminum, 2.75" x 1.75".

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4288_zpskcu1fwly.jpg)

I could have gone with 3/8" thick material but decided to give myself a little extra margin.  The original block and head were going to be 1.5" tall x 2.5" wide, but I decided a little extra depth for cooling fins might be prudent so now it's 1.75" x 2.75.

Tomorrow I'll start drilling and milling the head.

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on August 24, 2015, 12:41:24 AM
Got most of the drilling and machining done on the head today.  First operation was to mill the recesses for the spark plugs.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4289_zpswb1dbvid.jpg)

And here I have the 1/4-32 spark plug holes drilled and tapped.  They are on a 22.5 degree angle.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4291_zpslkcytx4v.jpg)

Next I drilled the through holes for the valve cages.  These will be made from 5/16" diameter brass and Loctited in place.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4293_zpsgz2fsdwu.jpg)

Here is the intake manifold port.  The two, 3/16" holes go out at an angle to the two inside valve cage holes.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4294_zpstsfm9xik.jpg)

These are the exhaust ports, drilled to 7/32"

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4295_zpsbzwrcfob.jpg)

And here we have the 6-32 head bolt holes.  For the moment these are only drilled out to the pilot hole size and will be enlarged later.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4298_zpseramar5o.jpg)

From the Bottom...

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4300_zpsxxbhql46.jpg)

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: fumopuc on August 24, 2015, 06:23:39 AM
Hi Chuck, it looks like a plate only, but I know how tricky it is to get every hole excatly at its proper position. I will following along.
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: BronxFigs on August 24, 2015, 12:25:18 PM
Hello Mr. Fellows-

Good to see the latest designs from the Fellow's workshop posted on the forum.  Good luck.  As always, interesting.

Frank
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on August 24, 2015, 01:07:24 PM
I am liking this one a lot Chuck!  With two cylinders it should sound great, but are you concerned about heat build up?  Any thoughts as to a muffin fan or similar to blow across the cylinder head and body to aid in taking some heat away?

Bill
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on August 24, 2015, 02:08:30 PM
Thanks Achim, Frank, Bill.

Bill, heat buildup is a bit of a concern.  I increased the overall dimensions of the cylinder block to allow for deeper fins.  Also, since the cylinder and head are aluminum, I'll get better heat transfer.  If push comes to shove, some sort of fan arrangement might be needed.

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: philjoe5 on August 24, 2015, 02:16:33 PM
Looks interesting Chuck.  I'll be following along :popcorn:

Here's to a successful project :ThumbsUp:

Cheers,
Phil
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on August 24, 2015, 11:48:22 PM
Thanks, Phil.

Worked on the cylinder block today. 

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4302_zpsidu6shpi.jpg)

I know it doesn't look like much was done, but I had to cut a length off a 2" x 3" rectangular bar, square up the ends, then surface it down to 1.75" x 2.75".  Next I'll bore out the 2 cylinders, then figure out the best way to shape the exterior, including the fins.  To cut the fin grooves, a 3/32" slitting saw in the mill seems like the right answer for the moment...

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on August 25, 2015, 12:28:37 AM
I have to agree Chuck, for making the fins a 3/32" slitting saw should be plenty rigid and work well...just a matter of holding the part firmly and squarely. Looking good already!!

Bill
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on August 30, 2015, 03:39:55 AM
Finally got back out in the shop today after a few bad days following chemo on Tuesday.  Only have 4 more treatments to go, so there's light at the end of the tunnel.

Got the cylinder block pretty well shaped.  Still have some holes to drill and some surface finishing to do, but it's mostly there.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4303_zpsdsisr3v0.jpg?t=1440815767)

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4304_zpsjgcpotca.jpg?t=1440815763)

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4305_zpsa5ojhlnr.jpg?t=1440815767)

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4306_zps6g5umrnx.jpg?t=1440815767)

I cut the fin grooves with a 3/32" slitting saw.  The larger cut-out around the bottom of the cylinder was done with a 3/8" end mill.  The bore, after polishing, turned out to be around .890", a little over my target of .875", but that's not a big deal.  I think the engine frame is next on the todo list.

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Art K on August 30, 2015, 03:59:45 AM
Chuck,
Sorry to hear the chemo is going rough. But I realy like the progress you are making on the twin. This build reminded me of the guy from Watertown that built this vertical twin.
(http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r559/Art-K/Badger%20Steam%20and%20Gas%20Show%202015/DSCN5173_1.jpg)
I liked how he used a generator and an arduino board to run the fan and LED lights. I think I'll have to learn how to do that.
Art
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: fumopuc on August 30, 2015, 06:52:19 AM
Hi Chuck, a big step forward already.
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on August 31, 2015, 02:57:19 AM
Thanks for the comments, guys.  Art, that vertical twin looks quite similar to a vertical twin I built several years ago.

Today I managed to tease a couple of engine frame sides out of a large piece of angle iron.  The angle iron, 4" x 4" x 1/4" is much larger than I needed, but it was the only piece available in the drop pile at my local metal supply place.  And it was free! 

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4307_zps0xdapa2u.jpg)

Here I've cut one side off to the height of the side...

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4308_zpsjumabddt.jpg)

And here I've cut them and milled them to the finish dimensions, 4" x 1.75" x 3/8" (at the bottom)...

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4309_zpssqqvtxfi.jpg)

And here they are after the final shaping...

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4310_zpscld7exsn.jpg)

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4311_zps0nplafk6.jpg)

Tomorrow I hope to finish the frame front piece and the base...

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on August 31, 2015, 06:01:17 PM
Nice, Chuck!!! I am following.---Brian
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on August 31, 2015, 08:46:00 PM
Chuck, you really work  wonders with that angle iron and the cylinder and head look great. Hang in there, I hope the next four treatments go by quickly for you. I has to help knowing that they are working too!!

Bill
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on September 01, 2015, 03:49:37 AM
Thanks, Bill.  Thanks Brian.   Appreciate all you guys following along!

Had another productive day today.  Got the front piece of the frame finished, finished frame pieces assembled and cylinder block mounted.  The front piece was made from a cutoff from the angle used for the sides.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4312_zpsppp5jfaq.jpg)

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4313_zpscdntofw3.jpg)

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4314_zpserhsuzge.jpg)

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4315_zps5r0afn0k.jpg)

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4316_zpsyowck73n.jpg)

I think the frame bottom will be next...

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on September 02, 2015, 03:24:02 AM
This evening I made the bottom plate for the engine frame.  It's made from 3/8" thick hot rolled steel.  The engine finish looks kind of rough at the moment, but most of the non-shiny parts will be painted in the end.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4322_zps3uekmcaa.jpg)

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4321_zps5vzbarjw.jpg)

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4317_zpsaknifopr.jpg)

Tomorrow I plan to tackle the crankshaft...

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: ths on September 03, 2015, 01:15:24 PM
Chuck, that's great what you've done with that angle iron. It looks scale cast and machined. The whole engine is coming together very nicely. Seeing how chemo can knock you around, I admire your fortitude and seemingly uninterrupted progress on this project. All the best, Hugh.
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on September 05, 2015, 12:14:16 AM
Chuck, that's great what you've done with that angle iron. It looks scale cast and machined. The whole engine is coming together very nicely. Seeing how chemo can knock you around, I admire your fortitude and seemingly uninterrupted progress on this project. All the best, Hugh.


Thanks, Hugh.

I got started on the crankshaft yesterday.  I started with a piece of 5" x 1.75" x 1/2" hot rolled steel.  I've heard that hot rolled steel has fewer stresses built up in it and it is less likely to deform as it's machined.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4324_zpsvryd2awx.jpg?t=1441321495)

I first cut out the two sides for the journal opening using my metal cutting bandsaw.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4325_zpsmf1t30r4.jpg?t=1441321509)

Then I center drilled  and used a 1/4" drill to help get rid of the waste pieces.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4326_zpstlssmsgo.jpg?t=1441321509)

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4327_zpsvxldeqjy.jpg?t=1441321509)

Then I chucked the piece in my bench vise and used a large-ish crescent wrench to break out the waste pieces.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4328_zpswu2teyw2.jpg?t=1441321509)

And here I've finished rough-cutting out the crankshaft form.  I've also center drilled each end of the blank so I can turn the main journals between centers.  I'll then use a specially made jig to hold the crank off-center to turn the two connecting rod journals.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4329_zpscyfqvh7v.jpg?t=1441321509)

More to come...

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on September 05, 2015, 12:31:38 AM
It's really starting to look like an engine Chuck. You are making so rapid progress!!

Bill
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on September 05, 2015, 12:34:32 AM
Hi Chuck

Enjoying your build!
Do you have plans for the valve train; will the cam and push rods be located under the crank and cylinder block?

Dave
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Don1966 on September 05, 2015, 12:55:01 AM
That's looking great Chuck and I will be watching you make the crank since I have never made one from one solid piece. Cool engine design bud.........  :cheers:

Don
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Art K on September 05, 2015, 02:21:28 AM
Chuck,
The engine is really coming along. I have never made, A: a flat crank, B: a crank out of hot rolled steel. Looking good.
Art
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Jo on September 05, 2015, 07:31:27 AM
Hi Chuck, you might recall my Kitti's crank warped because I used a bit of flat bar. It was suggested that this occurred as I did not have to machine the two faces . For the second attempt  :( I was told to mill 1mm off both sides and leave it a week before machining the crank.

The second attempt came out true  :)

Jo
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Jasonb on September 05, 2015, 08:09:58 AM
The black (hot rolled ) does seem to be a lot less prone to moving. I have cut cranks from bright bar and you could actually see it moving as the waste was stitch drilled out. I also did one that was flame cut from plate on the Monitor and that did not move. The only downside is the general purpose black bar is usually not quite so nice to machine.

I have taken to using the black bar quite a lot on my fabricated models for similar reasons, one thing that I do like to do is dip the bar in acid to get rid of the black scale. Over here we have "brickcleaner" which is hydrocloric acid, half an hour in that and the scale just falls off.
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on September 06, 2015, 04:17:21 AM
Thanks, all, for the comments and suggestions.  We'll see if stress movement becomes a problem.  I plan to take the crank down gradually to finished dimensions, rotating from one part to another.  That way, if any movement creeps in, I can straighten it out by removing more metal.

Today I started on the fixture for turning the connecting rod journals.  I started with a 2" diameter piece of cold rolled steel.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4330_zpsgxe08rl9.jpg)

Here I've milled out a slot, 1/2" wide and 1/8" deep.  It will hold the the web of the journal I'm turning.  I also drilled a 7/16" hole, offset from the center by 1/2 the stroke distance, to accept the crankshaft main journal.  This will place the connecting rod journal directly on the center axis of the lathe.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4331_zpsriqeqjng.jpg)

Here's what it looks like with the crankshaft inserted into the fixture...

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4332_zpsscmtqper.jpg)

And chucked in the lathe...

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4333_zpssg1ekkae.jpg)

Before I use the fixture, I need to drill and tap a hole for a setscrew to hold the crankshaft firmly in the fixture.

Chuck
 
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Don1966 on September 06, 2015, 03:05:16 PM
Cool Chuck but it must be kind of hard to square the crank in the Chuck. Do you use a DTI on your fixture to get it square or do you have a fixture for the tail stock?

Don
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on September 06, 2015, 03:30:31 PM
Cool Chuck but it must be kind of hard to square the crank in the Chuck. Do you use a DTI on your fixture to get it square or do you have a fixture for the tail stock?

Don

Thanks, Don.  I just use a DTI to center the fixture in the 4-jaw chuck.   This will result in the connecting rod journal being centered in the lathe.   After I've machined one journal, I just turn the crank around in the fixture and do the other journal.  There is no tailstock fixture.  Fortunatey, the journal to be machined is close enough to the chuck that overhang isn't a problem.

I'm thinking I might make a video of the process.

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Don1966 on September 06, 2015, 03:54:21 PM
Thanks Chuck and yes please do make a video. That way we get to see how it's done.

Don
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on September 07, 2015, 04:15:01 AM
Here's the first of two videos showing how I make the crankshaft.  This video shows the basic process.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5N_A8Ef4CQ

The second video will show me finishing it up.

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: gbritnell on September 07, 2015, 06:23:32 AM
Nice informative video on making the crank Chuck.
gbritnell
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: rudydubya on September 07, 2015, 07:55:31 AM
Interesting and informative video Chuck.  Thanks for sharing.  Following with interest.

Regards,
Rudy
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Don1966 on September 07, 2015, 04:04:48 PM
Love it Chuck, I will be waiting for the second video. Thanks a bunch buddy.

Don
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on September 07, 2015, 07:49:17 PM
Most informative Chuck, thanks for taking the time to do the video!! Still loving what you are doing on this project.

Bill
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Ian S C on September 08, 2015, 03:27:09 PM
Good video Chuck, if I may,  an :thinking: idea I had.  The block in the chuck for mounting the CS, I think it would hold better, with less chatter if it was the full depth, ie eliminate the aluminium spacer, and increase the number of grub/set screws to 4, one straight behind the first, then 2 at 90*.
Ian S C
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on September 08, 2015, 03:55:35 PM
Yes, Ian, I think you are spot on.  While making the second video, I ruined the crankshaft when the tool dug in and pulled the fixture part way out of the chuck.  The single grub screw and the shallow fixture isn't strong enough to hold against the cutting forces of the wide cutting tool. 

Another problem is the hot rolled steel.  Nasty stuff to turn.  I don't know if cold rolled steel would be any better or not.  I'd like to use 12L14, but starting with a 1.75" diameter round bar and whittling away all that metal seems like an ominous task.  Anybody have any suggestions for flat, rectangular steel that is a little easier to machine?

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on September 08, 2015, 07:20:03 PM
Chuck,  I used almost the same fixture om my PM coke bottle engine, except I split it for gripping . I also didn't cut my recess deep enough and so I had a "do over" also .  I used 12L14 for mine, but, I'm thinking aluminum would be better at gripping.  Once everything was sorted the second one turned fine.  The crank was a cast iron casting and it turned beautifully,  so if you could find some flat CI (old tractor weight, machine table  or such,  it might turn easier  :shrug:) I'll tell you as I told KVOM , that angle iron work is really nice, looks like you started with uber expensive  extrusions.

Cletus



Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on September 08, 2015, 09:17:11 PM
Thanks, Cletus.  Never thought about using cast iron.  I actuall have some on hand that might work. 

I had  thought about splitting the fixture and using the chuck jaws to clamp it shut, but wasn't sure how well that would work.  Did you use the chuck jaws to clamp the fixture down on the crank?

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on September 08, 2015, 10:45:23 PM
Yeah Chuck, that's how I clamped it. It seemed to work fine after I cut the recess deep enough for it to get a bite on the web also.  I'm pretty sure I picked up the idea from GailinNM. I think Gail might have used aluminum, but,  12L14 was all I had big enough and it did require a strong arm on the chuck key. The cast turned great, but, in the smaller diameters you have to be careful with tool pressure or it will snap,  ask me how I know  :Doh:.

 Cletus
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Hugh Currin on September 09, 2015, 12:51:50 AM
Another problem is the hot rolled steel.  Nasty stuff to turn.  I don't know if cold rolled steel would be any better or not.  I'd like to use 12L14, but starting with a 1.75" diameter round bar and whittling away all that metal seems like an ominous task.  Anybody have any suggestions for flat, rectangular steel that is a little easier to machine?

Chuck:

I looked a little and I think we're out of luck for rectangular 12L14. I found square but doesn't help here much. I was curious so looked at the machinability of various steels. Based on 1212 being 100% with higher % easier to machine, 12L14 being 170%. Not too much help, I found 1177 steel at 91% and 416 stainless at 110% while 1018 and 303 are both 78%. I did find some 416 through McMaster, but it was $106 for a 6"x6"x1/2" chunk. Makes one want to mill down a square chunk of 12L14.

I'll be curious what others suggest.

Nice build, thanks for putting it up.

Hugh
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on September 09, 2015, 12:58:03 AM
Chuck, I know its heresy but what about building it up from pieces and pinning it. Certainly would give you more choices for materials too. Just a thought.

Bill
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: tvoght on September 09, 2015, 01:29:06 AM
Chuck, material-wise it's hard to beat 1144 stressproof for this application. It has much less internal stress than normal CRS, and machines nicer. Like the other desirable materials, however you probably wouldn't find it in rectangular stock.

What I did on my Upshur farm engine was put the round blank lengthwise in my bandsaw and sawed off slabs like you'd square up logs in a sawmill. That saved a lot of milling and gave me some 1144 scrap for my scrap-box.

--Tim
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Streamer on September 11, 2015, 07:59:51 PM
Hi Chuck,
Just caught up on this project, looks very interesting and I will be following with interest. Very nice work on the block.
Cheers
Steve
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Art K on September 11, 2015, 10:58:09 PM
Chuck,
I've not made one that way but I know that the overhung type of cranks have used the split type, that clamp tight in the 4 jaw. The other thing you might consider is turning it between centers, that means having three center drills on each end. I enjoyed the video but I must admit that I cringed every time you stopped the spindle with your hand. I have the scar on my left index finger to remind me of that mistake. I've never touched a spinning chuck since. Fortunate for me I was only cut not crushed.
Art
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on September 12, 2015, 02:23:05 AM
Thanks for the info on the different metals, Hugh.  That will come in handy in the future.  Bill, I've made a couple of crankshafts by building them up and while I generally like that finish better, I always feel like it's not as strong as it could be.  Cletus, it turns out the piece of cast iron I had isn't big enough.  I was thinking about ordering a 1/2" thick by 5" diameter cast iron disk from Speedymetals and slicing out a piece the right size, but their shipping charges are as high as the material cost.  Thanks for dropping in Steve.  Art, I know that putting your hand on a spinning chuck is dangerous and I've been trying to stop doing it.  Old habits die hard and someday I'll probably get bit.

So, gonna try another one.  This time I'm using cold rolled steel since I have some that's almost the right size on hand.  It's actually 2" wide, but I milled it down to 1.75", taking a 16th off, alternating from side to side in an attempt to even out the stresses.  Here's the blank milled to 4.25" x 1.75"...

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4336_zpstmve5les.jpg)

Rather than make another fixture, I'm going to turn this one between centers, as Art suggests.  I've done it this way a number of times before and had good results.  The only problem is that the centers pushing in tend to squeeze the blank closed in the opening for the connecting rod journals.  I'm going to play with a couple of different options to see if I can overcome that.

Here's a picture of the blank with the webs cut out for turning the connecting rod journals.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4337_zps27karbrw.jpg)

And the center drilled ends...

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_43381_zpswbcrwbb7.jpg)

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Jasonb on September 12, 2015, 10:17:16 AM
Chuck, to stop things closing up with tailstock pressure I just turn up a close fitting disc and part off from the bar. This can be hot melt glued in place or if you drill a hole in it a zip tie or wire will be extra safe.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Engineering/Nemett%20Ocelot%20NE15OT/IMAG2929_zpscmuq9ubk.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Hit%20n%20Miss/1-3rd%20Monitor/IMAG2379_zpsbe7a3444.jpg)
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Art K on September 12, 2015, 05:49:37 PM
Chuck,
I have done something similar to what Jason is suggesting when making the crank for my Upshur vertical single. I shaved off a nut placed it in the center of the web and the pressure of the tailstock held it in place. Although the hot melt glue would be less fiddly. I just don't have the glue. You could do that portion then cut out the angle bits.
Art
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on September 14, 2015, 01:35:46 AM
Thanks, all, for the comments and the suggestions. 

I did finish up the crankshaft today.  I first turned the connecting rod journals to the finish diameter and width.  Then I cut the excess metal off the ends so I could turn the main journals.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4339_zpsaajewltj.jpg)

I did make spacers to wedge into the opening between the webs.  After I had turned the main journals to diameter, I used my bandsaw to cut the angled shape in the center, then smoothed them up with the belt grinder.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4340_zps6m1kp4bc.jpg)

I also made a video of the process which I'll edit and post later.

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on September 14, 2015, 03:16:52 AM
And the video...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5H-YleqtlSk

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Art K on September 14, 2015, 03:29:16 AM
Chuck,
That crank is looking pretty good.
Art
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Ian S C on September 14, 2015, 03:12:57 PM
Chuck, you'v got a good one there.  To turn the second part of the main shaft, did you put the first end in a collet, or in the 4 jaw chuck?
When making the new crankshaft for the Stuart Turner S9 I took a bolt that just fitted in the gap, and put a nut on it, and by undoing the nut got a firm fit in the space, held in place with a drop of Super Glue each end.
Ian S C
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on September 14, 2015, 04:12:04 PM
Chuck, you'v got a good one there.  To turn the second part of the main shaft, did you put the first end in a collet, or in the 4 jaw chuck?
When making the new crankshaft for the Stuart Turner S9 I took a bolt that just fitted in the gap, and put a nut on it, and by undoing the nut got a firm fit in the space, held in place with a drop of Super Glue each end.
Ian S C

Thanks, Art.  Thanks, Ian.  I did everything between centers.  I never used the 4-jaw or collets.

Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Don1966 on September 14, 2015, 06:04:08 PM
That's awesome Chuck and thanks for taking the time to video making it. In nice crank bud.

Don
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on September 15, 2015, 03:44:36 PM
That's awesome Chuck and thanks for taking the time to video making it. In nice crank bud.

Don

Thanks, Don.  Unfortunately, the video turned out to be a distraction and when I was turning the first main journal, I overshot it.  Somehow I had it in mind I needed to go to .350" instead of .375".  I managed to catch my mistake at about .360" so I settled on 9mm which is about .354".  I'm going to use 9mm needle bearings for the main journals.  I realize needle bearings should be run against hardened shafting, but I don't expect the engine to be run so much that it'll be a problem.

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Roger B on September 15, 2015, 05:51:14 PM
Just caught up with this thread. Looking good  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp: Crankshafts are an interesting thing to make  ::)
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on September 17, 2015, 02:37:45 AM
Thanks, Roger.  Crankshafts are interesting... and pretty!  Can't decide which is prettier, the crankshaft or a well designed flywheel...

Speaking of flywheels, here is the start of my flywheel.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_43411_zpsbwgl3pmk.jpg?t=1442366981)

It's a 6" OD ring with an ID of 5.35" and thickness of 3/4".   I heated the ring with a propane torch and the 1/2" thick aluminum disk, which is about .006" oversize is interference fitted.  The aluminum disk will be contoured down to 1/4" thick and the spokes will be cut using my CNC mill / drill.

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Ian S C on September 17, 2015, 12:37:10 PM
Here's a couple of mine, they are a bit battered, and need a repaint. They are about 6" diameter. They are made from what ever was on hand, the one with the screws in the face of the rim has the rim made of cast iron from the "top hat" bit on a brake disk, the other one is made of three bits of 8 mm hot rolled steel.
Ian S C
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on September 17, 2015, 11:42:40 PM
Here's my flywheel inside contoured and the spokes cut out.  Still need to beef up the center hub.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_43421_zpss8zhwvmn.jpg?t=1442443286)

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on September 18, 2015, 12:03:06 AM
Two fine pieces there Chuck. Still following along even if quietly.

Bill
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on September 18, 2015, 12:26:04 AM
Nice, Chuck!!!---I'm watching.---Brian
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on September 21, 2015, 02:52:15 AM
Thanks Bill, Brian.

Today I finished the Main Bearings and Caps.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4344_zpsm6yop2xh.jpg)

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: gbritnell on September 21, 2015, 01:19:34 PM
As is the case with all your builds Chuck it's coming along great.
gbritnell
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on September 21, 2015, 05:40:09 PM
HI Chuck, maybe I missed it but what are you going to use for the main bearing material? Is that where the 9mm bearings come in and if so are they already shown in place in that last photo?

Bill
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on September 21, 2015, 09:13:47 PM
Thanks, George, always a pleasure knowing you're watching.  Bill, the bearings are in place in the last picture I posted.  They are needle bearings with an ID of 9mm and an OD of 13mm and length of about 5/16".  I turned a steel bushing with a 5/8" OD and 13mm ID to hold the bearing.  I had previously made the opening in the frame 5/8" diameter planning to make my own cast iron bushings, but decided in the end to use the needle beaings.  It's not unusual for me to make "adjustments" to the design as the build progresses...

Chuck

Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on September 21, 2015, 09:31:50 PM
Thanks Chuck, makes sense now and looking at the picture again.

Bill
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Don1966 on September 21, 2015, 10:50:28 PM
Cool Chuck.......... 8)

 :popcorn:
Don
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on September 22, 2015, 02:42:05 AM
Thanks, Don.  Today I made the taper shaft lock for the flywheel.  These are a convenient way to fasten a built-up flywheel to a crankshaft without having to build up the length of the flywheel hub.  I started by working on the taper collet which fits on the shaft.  I started with 1" cold rolled steel and turned a spigot .53" diameter.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4345_zpsrgsmwphs.jpg)

I set the compound to 7 degrees off axial alignment...

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4347_zpsqw5k1yu7.jpg?t=1442798497)

Then I turned the 7 degree taper using the compound feed screw with the lathe running in reverse.  Since my chuck has a thread mount, I had to watch carefully to make sure it didn't unwind.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4348_zps39ig0bwa.jpg?t=1442798497)

Next I bored the center hole to a close, sliding fit over the crankshaft.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4349_zpsbqffpsa6.jpg?t=1442798497)

Without moving the compound angle setting, I mounted a boring bar in my QCTP and bored a matching taper hole in the flywheel.  This was done slowly, testing the collet for fit after each pass.  I wanted about 1/16" clearance between the collet flange and the flywheel hub.  I actually wound up with about .040" clearance (oops).

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4350_zps2ei39upf.jpg?t=1442798497)

Mounting the collet in my milling vice, I used a 1/16" slitting saw to cut a slot in one side.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4351_zpscqrlcxa1.jpg?t=1442798497)

I then drilled and tapped 4, 6-32 holes to pull the collet into the flywheel bore.  I also drilled and  tapped two holes for jack screws to pull the collet out of the taper when removing the flywheel from the engine.  Here are several pictures of the engine assembly thus far...

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4352_zpsyjghmdqg.jpg?t=1442798497)

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4353_zpsjrsbbrpf.jpg?t=1442798497)

The crankshaft had about .008" run-out at the end on the flywheel side which caused the flywheel to wobble (I hate that!).  But, using a DTI and my hydraulic press, I was able to straighten the crank and correct the run-out so it's only about .001" now and the flywheel runs true (I love that!).

The needle bearings run quite freely but they are kind of noisy and a little bit loose.   I think I'll go with my original idea and turn solid bushings out of cast iron.  Hopefully, with a long reamer, I can get perfect alignment and the engine will turn freely.

Then it's on to the connecting rods and pistons...

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Art K on September 22, 2015, 03:45:05 AM
Chuck,
I was just going to ask what you were going to use for a thrust washer to control axial movement on the needle bearings, but cast iron it is after all. I love the look of the flywheel, brass on aluminum. I used the taper lock on my Upshur vertical single.
Art
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: fumopuc on September 22, 2015, 05:46:43 AM
Hi Chuck, nicely done, as always. I like these taper shaft locks.
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Ian S C on September 22, 2015, 01:24:33 PM
To get needle rollers to run correctly they need to be pressed into a hole that will close the bearing to it's correct size (the size for each bearing is quoted in the manufacturers specs).  Just closing the bearing cap would not work, as that would make the hole oval. If the bearings have too much clearance, there life may be reduced, and you could get a bit more wear on the crankshaft journals.
I have the problem on my Ross Yoke Stirling Engine, it has a needle roller bearing in the bearing on the bell crank/crankshaft.
Ian S C :thinking: :headscratch:
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on September 22, 2015, 06:50:01 PM
To get needle rollers to run correctly they need to be pressed into a hole that will close the bearing to it's correct size (the size for each bearing is quoted in the manufacturers specs).  Just closing the bearing cap would not work, as that would make the hole oval. If the bearings have too much clearance, there life may be reduced, and you could get a bit more wear on the crankshaft journals.
I have the problem on my Ross Yoke Stirling Engine, it has a needle roller bearing in the bearing on the bell crank/crankshaft.
Ian S C :thinking: :headscratch:

I did not know that.  I wonder what kind pressure would be required to swage the outer race down to size.  All the more reason to switch back to CI plain bearings...

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on September 22, 2015, 07:02:50 PM
Chuck I'm still following along.  I just can't get over how you make the "lowly  angle iron" look.  I've made tons of things using it,  and while they may have been useful,  they were never necessarily pretty;  your's are  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Cletus
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on September 22, 2015, 10:12:40 PM
Chuck---I retrofitted my Kerzel hit and miss with roller bearings, in an attempt to lessen friction and get longer runs of "misses" between "hits". I chose roller bearings because there simply wasn't enough room for ball bearings. It worked, to the extent that there is far less friction-----but I was amazed at how noisy they were. I did not press the bearings into place either, because the engine already had split bearing caps. Experience has shown me that on these small bore slow revving engines it doesn't make significant difference in how they operate whether you use oilite bushings, ball bearings, or needle bearings.----Brian
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on September 23, 2015, 12:29:21 AM
Thanks, Brian, good information.  Thanks for the kind words, Cletus.  So, I've decided to replace the needle bearings with solid turned bushings.  I now need to choose between cast iron and cast bronze bearing material.  The bronze is really hard so I'm inclined to go with cast iron.  I believe it will be "gentler" on the crankshaft with less wear.  Anybody else have any thoughts?

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: RJH on September 23, 2015, 01:10:16 AM
I used 932 Bearing bronze on my 2 cyl rods, top and bottom ends. Got maybe 75 hrs. on them with no problems and not much oiling.
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on September 23, 2015, 01:10:40 AM
Nice job on the taper loc Chuck. Things are coming together nicely.

Bill
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on September 23, 2015, 01:11:31 AM
Chuck--I think either would work equally well. The graphite content in iron will give it some additional "lubricity". 660 bronze is used for heavy industrial bearings, and I think it will take shock loading without the danger of stress fracturing like iron will. However the loads your engine is going to impose on the bearings won't be severe enough to need the shock resistant qualities of bronze.----Brian
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: NickG on September 23, 2015, 07:05:59 PM
Hi Chuck,

Looking good. Love the flywheel, 0.006" sounds a large interference! Did it take much force to press in when it was hot?

Thanks,

Nick
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on September 23, 2015, 07:48:14 PM
Thanks, Bill, Brian.  I've decided to make the bushings out of cast iron.

Hi Chuck,

Looking good. Love the flywheel, 0.006" sounds a large interference! Did it take much force to press in when it was hot?

Thanks,
Nick


Thanks, Nick.  No, I didn't have to press it all.  I heated the brass ring to maybe 400 degrees, and the center just dropped in.  The interference may have been less than .006".  My dial calipers probably are not all that accurate on diameters of 5", at least the way I use them...

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: NickG on September 23, 2015, 08:01:24 PM
Thanks Chuck, suppose it is a big ring and that is hot so it doesn't surprise me it expanded that much. I just started wondering how much stress it would put on the spokes as you started to mill the material away, maybe nowhere near as much as I thought. Guess it would take a lot to buckle a spoke of that width / thickness. Probably did calculations like this at University (compound thick cylinders etc) but certainly wouldn't remember how!
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on September 23, 2015, 09:25:18 PM
Thanks, Bill, Brian.  I've decided to make the bushings out of cast iron.

Hi Chuck,

Looking good. Love the flywheel, 0.006" sounds a large interference! Did it take much force to press in when it was hot?

Thanks,
Nick
Thanks, Nick.  No, I didn't have to press it all.  I heated the brass ring to maybe 400 degrees, and the center just dropped in.  The interference may have been less than .006".  My dial calipers probably are not all that accurate on diameters of 5", at least the way I use them...

Chuck
When you heat up a ring, the expansion is linear. On a large diameter, the expansion will be greater than it would on a smaller diameter ring. The metal will expand at "x" amount per inch of length. If you imagine that ring of material as being straightened out into a straight line, a 5" diameter has many more "inches" in it than for instance a 2" diameter ring. Kind of hard to get your head around, but it works.
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on September 27, 2015, 06:06:58 AM
The past couple of days have been spent remaking the cast iron bushings for the main bearings.  I also finished up the connecting rods which are made from 3/8" thick aluminum, 5.25" long x .78" wide.  I started by locating and drilling the holes in the rod end that will hold on the rod cap.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4357_zpsnhjjc8zl.jpg?t=1443243150)

Next I cut off the rod caps and enlarged the holes, then tapped the holes 4-40 in the connecting rod...

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4358_zpsrui7n4wu.jpg?t=1443243150)

Then I cut notches in the corners of the rod caps to recess the SHCS heads...

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4359_zpstpwj8aoj.jpg?t=1443243150)

Here I've got the rod caps and connecting rods screwed back together for machining.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4360_zpsaiadvvzx.jpg?t=1443243145)

Next I drilled the pilot holes for the connecting rod journal and the wrist pin.  I also made a fixture to hold the rod blanks while they are being shaped in the mill...

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4361_zpslhxmhops.jpg?t=1443243149)

Here I have the blank mounted in the milling vise for shaping...

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4362_zps43ufcndr.jpg?t=1443243149)

And here the CNC program is cutting out the rod shape from the first blank.  The process is repeated for the second rod.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4363_zpskvl8gaj8.jpg)

Finally, I drilled and reamed the connecting rod hole to 3/8".  The wrist pin hole, at 3/16", was already the right size.  Here are some pictures of the engine so far.  Note that I haven't done the pistons yet, the rods are just sitting in the cylinders...

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4364_zpsjcxxdxni.jpg?t=1443243149)

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4365_zpsgq44jyrf.jpg?t=1443243149)

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4366_zpsulkarrch.jpg?t=1443243149)

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4367_zpshsjpgsp8.jpg?t=1443243149)

Next I'll finish up the pistons before moving on to the cam and timing gears...

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: fumopuc on September 27, 2015, 08:04:42 AM
Hi Chuck, a big step forwards.
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on September 28, 2015, 04:56:19 AM
Thanks, Achim.

I've decided to simplify the timing gear arrangement.  I was going to use a combination of helical gears, short sideshaft, and push rods.  Instead, I've decided to just use standard 2:1 spur gears with an idler gear in between.  Since the cam will be on the inside of the frame, it needs to be far enough forward to clear the crankshaft and connecting rods... thus, the idler gear.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/TimingGears_zpspoginjsu.jpg?t=1443326012)

I'm going to get started on the gears tomorrow.

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: gbritnell on September 28, 2015, 12:39:50 PM
Looks good Chuck.
gbritnell
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: rudydubya on September 28, 2015, 09:13:59 PM
Nice going Chuck.  Neat solution for locating the gear and cam, I'll have to remember that.

Regards,
Rudy
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on September 29, 2015, 08:25:25 PM
Isn't it great when you are the designer!! If you change your mind about something part way through the build, you just update the 3D model to match it!!  I'm following your build, and today I was wondering----Were there ever any 2 cylinder water cooled open crankcase engines built? I have never seen one, but then there are a lot of things I've never seen.---Brian
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Perry on September 29, 2015, 09:44:03 PM
Hi Brian, speaking of model engines. there is one fitting your description at FAME gallery..
Peter
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on September 29, 2015, 10:18:34 PM
Isn't it great when you are the designer!! If you change your mind about something part way through the build, you just update the 3D model to match it!!  I'm following your build, and today I was wondering----Were there ever any 2 cylinder water cooled open crankcase engines built? I have never seen one, but then there are a lot of things I've never seen.---Brian

Horizontal or vertical? Frisco Standard comes to mind; I'm sure there are many others.

Dave
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on September 29, 2015, 10:34:36 PM
I was thinking of horizontal, similar to Chucks engine.
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on September 29, 2015, 10:38:13 PM
Yeah, the Frisco Standard is a nice vertical 2 cylinder with an open crankcase.  Here is a full size Tangye horizontal twin diesel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyRRCqMujpM

Here is an open crankcase horizontal twin model by Find Hansen...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTs4l-Qd-UY

Haven't seen any others...

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on September 29, 2015, 11:05:56 PM
That hot bulb engine is really something. What the heck is the governor controlling? When he speeds up or slows down the engine, he is simply changing the tension on the governor spring, but I can't see what the governor is acting on.---Brian
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on September 29, 2015, 11:29:59 PM
That hot bulb engine is really something. What the heck is the governor controlling? When he speeds up or slows down the engine, he is simply changing the tension on the governor spring, but I can't see what the governor is acting on.---Brian

This is a hot bulb engine that uses direct fuel injection with a pump.  The governor moves a wedge in and out between the injection pump and a cam which increases and decreases the length of the injection stroke.

This video explains it pretty well (and the engine is a vertical twin, a very nice one!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yoi8IiIlwY

Chuck

Edit:  These engines will run on kerosene, turpentine, and other low volatility fuels.
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on September 29, 2015, 11:45:24 PM
Thank you Chuck. That is something I haven't seen before.---Brian
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Rustkolector on October 01, 2015, 04:13:58 AM
Chuck,
The IHC Titan 50 hp engine was a real life horizontal twin very closely resembling your twin. None are known to exist today, but is the same engine used in the 30-60 Titan tractor. Unlike yours, the the IHC Titan twin had the valve train on top. Here is a video of a model of the Titan 50 hp.

Jeff

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4vb3AhBI_A
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on October 01, 2015, 02:15:40 PM
Gould Shapely & Muir made a twin cylinder hopper cooled engine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viKl0l1C3PA

Dave

Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Jasonb on October 01, 2015, 04:08:14 PM
I like that, quite a tuneful engine, would certainly suits Brian's opposed twin.

Or how about a slide valve for something a bit different to our usual valve arrangements

[youtube1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feKl-ZOeyv4&feature=youtu.be[/youtube1]
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Alyn Foundry on October 01, 2015, 05:47:56 PM


Or how about a slide valve for something a bit different to our usual valve arrangements

[youtube1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feKl-ZOeyv4&feature=youtu.be[/youtube1]

Dear Jason.

The slide valve was purely for ignition purpose. It was the only method known to work reliably at the time.

Although HT ignition had been used by Etienne Lenoir on his atmospheric gas engine in 1859/60 it didn't become widely used until much later, mainly because Hot tube ignition had been discovered.

It amazes me how a slug of burning Town gas can be carried from the open flame and transferred into the cylinder!!  Oh, and you can't use Propane here, it doesn't burn fast enough but you can use it as the main fuel.

Regards, Graham.
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on October 02, 2015, 05:22:26 AM
One of my biggest complaints about spur gears for the camshaft drive on these model engines is the noise.  Spur gears, unless you run them in oil, are noisy.  So, I think I'm going to try 15 degree helical gears.  I know this will produce some axial thrust, but since these are not under heavy load, I don't think it be enough to matter.  And hopefully they will run a quieter.  I was going to just cut the teeth at a 15 degree angle, but I think they will need to be true helical gears, so, time to break out the 4th axis on the CNC mill / drill.  This will require gears with both left and right helical cuts...

Chuck

Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on October 04, 2015, 02:34:36 AM
I finished the timing gears today.  A 14 tooth, 15 degree, left hand helical gear for the primary, a 14 tooth, 15 degree right hand helical gear for the idler, and a 28 tooth, 15 degree, left hand helical gear for the secondary gear.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/20151003_201544_zpsfcjavmty.jpg)

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/20151003_201600_zps3sa5xvdc.jpg)

I made a video of cutting one of the gears.  Will get it posted later...

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on October 04, 2015, 03:05:36 AM
Here's the video of the large, secondary cam gear being cut on my CNC mill/drill with 4th axis...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0zAAImnHUc

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on October 04, 2015, 04:33:49 AM
Good looking gears Chuck. The CNC really simplifies the actual cutting, though I know you invested setup and programming time as well, but it looks to have paid off in the end result!!

Bill
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: NickG on October 04, 2015, 08:30:04 AM
Brilliant to watch that chuck,  the CNC made short work of those, as bill said its all the up front work but if you needed multiple sets it would start to pay off of course. How much did the 4th axis move for those gears? It's not a subject I know much about, looked about 15 degrees as well?
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Don1966 on October 04, 2015, 03:15:27 PM
That didn't t take long at all to cut Chuck. Did it take that long to write the program? Are you using my Spreadsheet to do the calculations with? Thanks for showing us the video Chuck, as it helps a lot to visilize how it's all done. Nice gears by the way bud.

Don
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on October 04, 2015, 05:14:25 PM
Thanks, Bill.  I had actually written the G-Code some time back for another gear and simple re-used it.  It did take me an hour or so to re-acquaint myself with the trigonometry since I had to change a couple of the parameters for these gears.

Thanks, Nick.  The amount of turn for the big gear was about 17 degrees.  For the small gears, it was about 34 degrees.  I have my 4th axis set up to use fraction of a turn rather than degrees, so, for example 0.25 is 1/4 of a turn.  The amount of specified turn is dependent on the total travel of the X-Axis which is about 3 times the width of the gear to allow for cutter clearance when indexing between teeth.

Thanks, Don.  I used my own series of spreadsheets which I had prepared back when I designed my original Helical Gear cutting fixture for the lathe.  Yesterday, I discovered that Mach 3 provides for the use of trigonometric functions in G-Code, so I have begun modifying my Helical Gear program to take variables for the diametral pitch, number of teeth, etc.  That will make it easier to change for different gears in the future.

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: NickG on October 04, 2015, 09:13:53 PM
Chuck, it didn't occur to me that the amount of turn was related to X travel, obvious now when you think about it!
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on October 04, 2015, 11:04:14 PM
Helical gear cutting is a bit hard to get your head around and, unless you have a specific need for such a gear, hardly seems worth the effort.  But it is interesting and not that complicated once you get into it.  And, it's pretty gratifying to make a working helical gear.

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: gbritnell on October 05, 2015, 06:31:09 PM
Hi Chuck,
 I don't want your engine thread to get too far off topic but I have a question or two about helical gears that maybe you can answer being as you did some investigating prior to coming up with your helical gear cutting fixture.

 Going to the Boston gear website and looking at the explanation of helical gears they use the term industry standard when referring to a 45 degree helix. On the Wikipedia site it is stated that helical gears can be made with a helix angle anywhere from 15-30 degrees with 45 the maximum.

When I made my helical gears I just used 45 degrees. The purpose of a helical gear is to provide a smoother operation between gearsets due to the greater tooth contact. That being said one would have to take into account the width of the gear to calculate the helix angle that would produce the smallest helix while still providing tooth contact between at least 2 teeth.  Correct?

 Now this will work for two helical gears, one left and one right hand, with parallel axis. If one wants the 2 gears to have axis at right angles then the gears are to be of the same hand, left or right.
Now considering a gear pair running at right angles, one left and one right hand,  it seems that the steeper the helical angle of the driving gear would produce a smoother interaction of the teeth with the driven gear with the penalty of the gear set not being able to drive in reverse or coast. By changing the helix angle another benefit would be the ability to produce gear ratio changes without having to have one large and one small gear similar to spur gears used for engine cam driving.
 
 The second question refers to the preceding paragraph. When you first made your fixture and cut your first set of right angle gears what numbers did you consider when determining the helical angles of the two gears, the ratio or the overall gear size or both?

gbritnell
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on October 05, 2015, 08:27:25 PM
George, on your first question, yes, the width of the gear will determine the helix angle if you always want a tooth to be engaged.  Or vice versa... for a fixed gear width, the helix angle will have to be adjusted.  On this engine, I wanted the gear width to be 3/16", so I adjusted the helix angle to 15 degrees.

Regarding your second question, when I cut my first set of helical gears, it was for a 4-stroke, side shaft engine.  Since the crankshaft is typically larger in diameter than the camshaft, I wanted the primary gear to be large while the secondary gear, on the side shaft, would be smaller.  I put together a spreadsheet for different helix angles and different numbers of teeth and was able to pick my gear parameters based mostly on size.  For the primary gear, I settled on a 40DP,  6 tooth, 80 degree helix angle  which yielded a gear of .864" pitch diameter.  The secondary gear was a 12 tooth, 10 degree helix angle and the pitch diameter was .305.  So yes, a steeper angle on the driving gear gives a smoother, quieter power transition and let's you have a larger primary and smaller secondary.  I've attached a copy of my spreadsheet if you want to wade though it.  The first sheet and last sheet are the most useful.  The last sheet lets you input different parameters and it calculates angles, sizes, etc.

Here is a video of those gears in operation...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAG808sAQ90


Hope this helps...
Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on October 07, 2015, 02:20:37 AM
I really liked the piston Art made for his "Val" engine, so I shamelessly copied the design for my pistons.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/Pistons_zpsnagimrc7.jpg)

The pistons are .875" diameter x .875" long and made from cast iron.  I would normally make the pistons from aluminum, but since the cylinders are aluminum, I figured a different material was called for.   The ring groove is about .070" wide and .067" deep.  The wrist pin will be 3/16" diameter.

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Roger B on October 07, 2015, 09:05:38 AM
Nice work on the helical gears and some interesting and useful information  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on October 08, 2015, 03:13:42 AM
Thanks, Roger.

I finished up the pistons and have them attached to the connecting rods...

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4381_zpsjhgeau3a.jpg)

As you can see, I also replaced the cast iron main bearings with 4, 9mm ball bearing races, 2 flanged and 2 without flanges.  I had it all assembled earlier today, including the flywheel and it all spins over very nicely, no binding, and no slop, so I'm pleased.

I also made and installed the valve cages this evening.  They are made from 5/16" brass rod, fastened in place with Loctite 620

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/IMG_4379_zps6tcs0hof.jpg)

Finally, I located and bored the holes in the frame for the camshaft.  I'll take pictures when I get the cam bearings and camshaft installed...

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: ogaryd on October 08, 2015, 02:04:45 PM
Chuck, I don't want to get off track here but why do you suppose BSA & Triumph twin cylinder motorcycles had both pistons on one crank pin? I know they would shake your teeth out! Gary
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on October 08, 2015, 02:34:09 PM
Chuck, I don't want to get off track here but why do you suppose BSA & Triumph twin cylinder motorcycles had both pistons on one crank pin? I know they would shake your teeth out! Gary

I expect they thought it more important to have the power strokes spaced evenly.  With the crank pins at 180 degrees, the engine files twice on one revolution, then waits for an entire revolution before firing again.  Then again, maybe they just didn't want their sexy engines to sound like a  tractor...  :ROFL:

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: NickG on October 08, 2015, 04:01:55 PM
Are they v twins you are talking about or horizontally opposed?
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on October 08, 2015, 04:30:05 PM
Are they v twins you are talking about or horizontally opposed?

The BSA and Triumph motorcycle engines were vertical, inline twins and their crank pins were on the same axis.  Many of the old tractors were horizontal twins and the crank pins were 180 degrees apart.  The old Lister twins were inline and vertical and also had their crank pins 180 degrees apart.  Engines with their crank pins 180 degrees apart had much less vibration since the crankshaft was more balanced and the pistons and rods were always traveling in the opposite direction. 

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: NickG on October 08, 2015, 04:38:55 PM
Ah right didn't know they were inline Chuck, you learn something new every day! I know some of the Ferrari V8s have flat plane cranks hence don't have the same off beat V8 noise as the usual cross plane. Is that why it was the choice for motorbikes then to enable higher rpm do you think?
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on October 08, 2015, 06:03:59 PM
Because of balancing issues, the 360 degree crank angle engines actually have a maximum RPM that is lower than 180 degree crankshaft engines.  So, I don't know why motorcycle manufactures chose the 360 degree over the 180 degree crank angles.

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Jo on October 08, 2015, 07:00:29 PM
A couple of reasons they chose the 360 degree format (and the vibration  :():

The 360 degree engine is better suited to a single carb than the 180 degree angle.

The 180 degree is challenging for the ignition system and requires a separate ignition system, points or otherwise, for each cylinder, where as the 360 can use a single ignition for both cylinders, with a wasted spark.

Jo
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on October 09, 2015, 02:51:29 AM
A couple of reasons they chose the 360 degree format (and the vibration  :():

The 360 degree engine is better suited to a single carb than the 180 degree angle.

The 180 degree is challenging for the ignition system and requires a separate ignition system, points or otherwise, for each cylinder, where as the 360 can use a single ignition for both cylinders, with a wasted spark.

Jo

I had read that and you could be right.  However, vibration on those vertical twins was horrendous and, to counteract vibration, companies like Yamaha went to some design extremes like counter rotating weights which added even more weight, bulk, and expense.  I still think it had more to do with the sound... after all, who wants to ride a sleek, sexy motorcycle down the highway sounding like a John Deere tractor...  ::)  Add to that, the fact, that 180 degree engines sound pretty awful above 1500 RPM's.  They sound like a 4 cylinder inline engine that's miss-firing on 2 cylinders...

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Admiral_dk on October 09, 2015, 12:53:20 PM
Besides old English Iron (BSA, Triumph, etc.), I can't remember any modern motorcycle twin that has a 360 degree crank - most has a 180 degree (almost all Japanese and BMW), some has a 270 degree and the most interesting was Husquarna when owned by BMW, their Nuda has a 45 degree crank (no vibration with balancers).

As Jo said - the English did 360  degrees to save money, the Japanese did 180 degrees to minimise vibration. Later Honda did 270 degrees to mimic the "noise" of a V-Twin on their soft-choppers and this might have inspired KTM to very successfully use the same principle on racing twins - this avoids any "dead spots" = top and bottom dead centres.
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on October 10, 2015, 04:21:21 AM
Here is the cam blank.  The lobes are 3/8" diameter and the smaller OD is 3/16"

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20151009_002_zps3f9d6wzj.jpg?t=1444360614)

And here it is with the cam gear slipped on...

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20151009_003_zpsem471f4n.jpg?t=1444360604)

Haven't decided exactly how I will shape the cam profiles. 

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Admiral_dk on October 10, 2015, 07:11:38 PM
That cam blank with the helical gear looks great (and suggest an high-end engine)  :Love:
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: fumopuc on October 10, 2015, 07:15:19 PM
Hi Chuck, nice cam blank. Waiting for your final way to make the profiles.
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: kuhncw on October 11, 2015, 02:39:48 AM
Chuck,

I'm looking forward to hearing your twin cylinder run.  Nice work.

Actually, you can waste fire a twin cylinder with the crank pins 180 degrees out.  I built my Silver Bullet this way and it runs fine on a coil with twin high tension leads.

Chuck

Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Roger B on October 11, 2015, 08:57:00 AM
Coming along nicely  :praise2:  :praise2:

I will be interested to see how you decide to cut the cam profiles. What profile are you going to use?
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on October 14, 2015, 03:26:05 AM
Here's a picture of the camshaft lobes being milled.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20151013_002_zpstblnflyc.jpg)

See the video for more information on how it's being done.  Here is a picture of the finished cam...

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20151013_003_zps4eg76pms.jpg)

And here is the video of the first lobe being milled...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9FnvIGQ60c

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: ths on October 14, 2015, 12:04:51 PM
That was a very good video, Chuck, the profiles were obvious, and the job looks great! Cheers, Hugh.
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on October 14, 2015, 06:49:16 PM
I've gotten some requests for the g-code I used in the cam milling video, so here it is...

(Form Initial Flat)
g1 y0 z0 a0 f3
z-.02
y .45
g0 y0
g1 z-.04
y .45
g0 y0
g1 z-.06
y .45
g0 y0
g1 z-.08
y .45
g0 y0

(Cut away CAM base)
#100=0                (Initialize variable to zero)
M98 P0002 L26     (Perform Sub Program 0002, 26 times)

(Form Cam Lobe Tip)

g1 z-0.0640
g0 a0.675
y 0.4
g0 y0
g1 z-0.0460
g0 a0.700
y 0.4
g0 y0
g1 z-0.0300
g0 a0.725
y 0.4
g0 y0
g1 z-0.0017
g0 a0.750
y 0.4
g0 y0
g1 z-0.0007
g0 a0.775
y 0.4
g0 y0
g1 z-0.0002
g0 a0.800
y 0.4
g0 y0
g1 z-0
g0 a0.825
y 0.4
g0 y0
g1 z-0.0002
g0 a0.850
y 0.4
g0 y0
g1 z-0.0007
g0 a0.875
y 0.4
g0 y0
g1 z-0.0017
g0 a0.900
y 0.4
g0 y0
g1 z-0.0300
g0 a0.925
y 0.4
g0 y0
g1 z-0.0460
g0 a0.950
y 0.4
g0 y0
g1 z-0.0640
g0 a0.975
y 0.4
g0 y0
g0 Z.125
g0 a0
M02              (Program Finished)

(Sub Program)
O0002
 #100 = [#100 + 0.025] (Increment 4th Axis position 0.025 turn)
 g1 a[#100] F4               (Rotate 4th Axis to position specified in #100)
 g1 y0.27                       (Move the Y Axis 0.27" to make cut)
 g0 y0                            (Fast move back to position Y0)
M99                            (Exit the SUB PROGRAM)
%



Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Stuart on October 14, 2015, 07:26:42 PM
thanks

Stuart
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on October 18, 2015, 04:40:30 AM
Got some minor stuff done.  I drilled and tapped the hole that will hold the shaft for the idler gear in the cam gear train.  I also made cast iron bushings for the camshaft to run in.  I got the fit on the cam gears a little too tight, so I smeared some valve grinding compound on them and spun them with my drill until they loosened up.  Unfortunately, I also managed to saturate the internal race and balls of the crankshaft main ball bearing with the valve grinding compound, so I had to order a replacement.  Then I made the block that screws to the frame and holds the valve lifters.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20151017_008_zpsaivpuplt.jpg?t=1445052530)

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20151017_007_zpslx6jwpfz.jpg?t=1445052542)

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20151017_004_zps02jd9txw.jpg?t=1445103554)

I actually had to make the lifter block 3 times because of stupid measuring mistakes on the first 2.  Probably need to get to work on the valves next...

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: gmac on October 18, 2015, 06:04:55 PM
Chuck;
Nice work, following along quietly  ;). I like your temporary tailstock ! Is that just a 60 deg cone on the tailstock end bearing into the brass indexing disc ?
Cheers
Garry
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on October 18, 2015, 06:38:41 PM
Chuck;
Nice work, following along quietly  ;). I like your temporary tailstock ! Is that just a 60 deg cone on the tailstock end bearing into the brass indexing disc ?
Cheers
Garry

Thanks, Garry.  The center is a 3/8" bolt with the head cut off and the end turned to a 60 degree point.  The tailstock frame is a piece of angle iron that I had fashioned making my version of Guy Lautard's Tinker tool grinding attachment.

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: rudydubya on October 18, 2015, 09:35:36 PM
Following along quietly Chuck.  Admiring your work.

Regards,
Rudy
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on October 18, 2015, 10:13:20 PM
Things are coming together nicely Chuck, I still love the look of that angle iron base too. Going to have to try that at some point.

Bill
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: gmac on October 19, 2015, 10:02:07 PM
Thanks Chuck  :ThumbsUp:

Garry
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on October 22, 2015, 04:13:34 AM
Thanks for the comments, Bill, Rudy.

Today I finished up the valves.  I started with a piece of polished steel rod, 8mm diameter, probably out of a printer.  It was really free-machining so it might be 12L14.  I know folks might think drill rod would be a better choice for valves, but this will be a slow, cool running engine and if I manage to get 10 hours of run time on it, I'll be lucky, so I'm not too concerned about the softer steel.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20151021_0011_zpsl4ozu6hy.jpg?t=1445396635)

With the full length of rod chucked in my mini lathe, I turned the valve stem down to 5/32" for a length of 15/16" and then the chamfer on the valve head with the compound set at 45 degrees.  I turned and parted off all 4 valves without disturbing the lathe set up.  Then I made a holding fixture from 3/8" round brass rod, drilling a 5/32" hole through the center and cutting a slit in one side.  This allowed me to hold the valves in the 3 jaw chuck to face off the big end and cut the E-Clip groove in the stem.

Following the method used by Rudy on his small hit n miss engine, I also cut a blank from drill rod to serve as a valve seat cutting tool (Thanks, Rudy). 

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20151021_0021_zpszmw5wmgy.jpg?t=1445396649)

This was done with the same lathe set-up used for the valves, so the angle on the chamfer is identical.  I'll need to use a file or an end mill to cut a single tooth in the tool for cutting the valve seat.

Next on the agenda will probably be making the rocker arms and rocker arm holding assembly.

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on October 22, 2015, 08:10:25 PM
A little more finish work on the valves.  I made the valve keepers and sized the springs.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20151022_0011_zpszkmt4mev.jpg)

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20151022_0051_zpszdj0wamj.jpg)

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20151022_0041_zpsjhm1xwol.jpg)

The spring pressure is pretty high and I think I'll need to cut up to a single loop off each spring.  We'll see later after I get the engine assembled how much push back there is on the cam.
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on October 22, 2015, 08:21:44 PM
They look great installed in the head Chuck, but I would have to agree (though it could just be the picture), those springs do look a bit robust :) Still a fine looking engine and I am enjoying the ride.
Bill
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on October 25, 2015, 01:50:43 AM
Thanks, Bill.  I'm also thinking I might neck down the valve stems near the head to provide greater volume for the intake and exhaust gases.

Fiddly parts today.  I finished the rocker arm shaft and brackets.  I was going to go with something a little fancier and more complex, but decided simpler was best.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20151024_0021_zpscdosl2un.jpg)

The shaft is made from 1/8" drill rod.  The angle brackets are 1/4" thick by about 11/32" tall and 3/8" wide.  Next I'll start on the rocker arms.

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on October 27, 2015, 02:45:42 AM
Been working on this for a couple of days now, so I guess it's time to post some pictures.  Here are the rocker arms.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20151025_001_zps7fo8lk9y.jpg?t=1445826931)

I designed them in Visio, then exported them to a DXF file.  From there to CamBam and finally to Mach3 so I could cut them on my CNC Mill.  They are cut into the ends of a piece of 1" X 3/8" cold rolled steel.  I machined one on one end of the blank, then turned the blank end for end and machined one on the other end.  Then I parted them off in my metal cutting band saw.  Here are a couple after I milled them down to 3/16" thickness...

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20151025_003_zps4jdd4leu.jpg?t=1445826941)

Then I repeated the process for the other 2.  Here are all 4 of them after I drilled the holes for the rocker arm shaft.  I got the holes a little too big for the shaft, so I drilled them out to 5/32 and pressed in a piece of 1/8" ID brass tubing.  This corrected the fit and will act as a bearing.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20151026_002_zpsalo2uzpj.jpg?t=1445827345)

I drilled and tapped the outer end to accept a 3-48 socket head cap screw.  This will be used to adjust valve clearance.  You may notice that I also ground down the outer end to make it a little thinnger...

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20151026_003_zpswqukjtyf.jpg?t=1445827348)

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20151026_004_zpsxt5kkgsn.jpg?t=1445827348)

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20151026_005_zpsgct3tqea.jpg?t=1445827347)

I also made some new springs that are a little lighter duty.  I think I'm about ready to reassemble the engine and make the push rods...

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Don1966 on October 27, 2015, 03:45:24 AM
That's awesome Chuck and looks great. Still following you buddy and enjoying the progress. I am getting anxious to see it running.  :praise2:

Don
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: fumopuc on October 27, 2015, 05:10:40 AM
Hi Chuck, a nice work these rocker arms. These brass bearing bushes will be a better solution than running steel on steel.
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: sco on October 27, 2015, 08:01:35 AM
Still following along Chuck.  I know this is probably a low speed engine but have you thought of taking some mass out of the rockers to help the valvetrain dynamics, not thinking anything too clever - a cross hole above the valve stem and tapering section towards the pushrod maybe?

Simon.
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 27, 2015, 12:15:41 PM
Chuck--Excellent work as usual. I like the profile of your rocker arms.---Brian
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Roger B on October 27, 2015, 02:32:48 PM
Coming along well  :praise2:  :praise2: Did you calculate the radius for the valve end of the rockers or just draw something that looks right?
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on October 28, 2015, 02:36:43 AM
Thanks, folks.  Roger, I didn't calculate the radius, just sized it to look good. 

Today I made  the intake manifold, although it's really more of a carburetor adapter.  I later had to thin down the flange so it wouldn't interfere with the intake valve push rods. 

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20151027_003_zps6k8zv6ld.jpg)

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20151027_004_zpsyg3bl7qk.jpg)

Here's a few pictures of the the engine assembled so far.  Don't have all the bolts, nuts and other connectors made and/or assembled, but enough to hold it together for pictures.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20151027_005_zpsrtujrlda.jpg)

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20151027_007_zpspggozbac.jpg)

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20151027_008_zps0m4pvp2h.jpg)

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20151027_009_zpsgu3o5bq9.jpg)

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20151027_010_zpse3xnolhu.jpg)

Everything turns over smoothly and the valve train works correctly.  Pretty much all the mechanical stuff is done.  Still need to put together the ignition system, a fuel system, and the base.

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: NickG on October 29, 2015, 10:11:30 PM
That looks excellent Chuck. I have a feeling this is going to make a lot of noise!
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Don1966 on October 29, 2015, 11:12:48 PM
Looking great Chuck and I am ready to see this baby ticking over. I do have a question about the Con Rods that I am curious as to why they are so beefy? You expecting a lot of torque from the engine?

Don
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on October 29, 2015, 11:21:29 PM
Gosh Chuck, I missed a couple of posts and you are almost done. Nice work as usual on the rockers and well...the whole thing!!!

Bill
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on October 30, 2015, 05:46:09 AM
Thanks, guys.  Don, I agree the con rods look a bit chunky for the engine.  I usually like to start out oversize on these things and trim them down if needed.  These definitely need to be thinned down some.

Next I'll work on the base.  I'm still noodling around with the design.  Since I want to run a generator with this engine, the base will be up to 4 inches longer than the engine frame.

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: gbritnell on October 30, 2015, 12:32:52 PM
Hi Chuck,
Another unique engine for your collection. As I have mentioned in previous threads the speed at which you create these engines is fantastic. I can't wait to hear the cadence of this thing running.
gbritnell
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Ian S C on October 30, 2015, 01:28:09 PM
Chuck, there was talk earlier in the thread about the timing of twins, one type was not mentioned, the split single, in this type both cylinders fire at the same time, they are both on the same crank, in other words two small pistons instead of one large one, I think there were some British motor bikes that used a motor like this.
Ian S C
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Bluechip on October 30, 2015, 01:40:15 PM
Don't know about British ???

Puch did certainly, the 250 was not unknown here. I knew of one.

http://kingsleysp.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/puch.html

[ Wind down a bit for a piccy ]

Never keen on 2-strokes though, stinky contraptions. Also had a propensity to go backwards, at least the Villiers did.  :cussing:

Dave
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 25, 2015, 09:33:53 PM
Chuck--I just watched your video of making the crankshaft----again!! I think that is where I plan on going next with my engine.--Nice video---wish me luck. Were you using the lathe power feed for any of that video or were you "hand bombing" it all?---Brian
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on November 26, 2015, 12:11:46 AM
Chuck--I just watched your video of making the crankshaft----again!! I think that is where I plan on going next with my engine.--Nice video---wish me luck. Were you using the lathe power feed for any of that video or were you "hand bombing" it all?---Brian

Thanks, Brian.  I used the longitudinal power feed while turning the main journals on each end of the crank.  To reduce runout on the mains journals, be sure the filler slugs placed between the connecting rod webs are snug.  You want to reduce the movement due to squeezing between lathe centers to zero if possible.

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on December 07, 2015, 04:01:53 AM
Managed to get back out into the shop and get some work done on this engine.  Got a good start on the carburetor...

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20151206_21_30_18_Rich_zpsblrygezb.jpg?t=1449373936)

Still have to make the needle valve and the throttle screw.

I also got the magnet disk for the hall sensor finished.  And, I added another piece to the frame to elevate the engine enough for the flywheel to clear the base.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20151206_21_30_48_Rich_zpsfntlcnmz.jpg?t=1449373938)

I have to make a wooden base and fuel tank next.  And I have some small fasteners and other tidying up to do.  Might have this engine ready for a test in another week or two.

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: crankshafter on December 07, 2015, 02:42:50 PM
Chuck.
I have been following you from the start of this build . I like this engine werry much, so now I have to ask: Will you prowide drawings/plans? ::)
Best reg.
CS
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on December 13, 2015, 05:19:03 AM
Thanks, CS.  We'll have to see on the plans.  Maybe I can edit my drawings and make them presentable.

Did a bit more work.  Got the timing gear fasteners done and in place...

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20151212_22_56_16_Rich1_zpsy2hrkcsm.jpg)

And here you can see the full wooden base.  It's made with Black Walnut and 1/2" Baltic Birch plywood for the platform...

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20151212_22_56_37_Rich_zps4ixetm9j.jpg)

Here's the other side.  I made the flywheel cutout all the way to the edge so I could remove the flywheel without taking the engine off the wooden base...

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20151212_22_57_01_Rich_zpscdwhovhd.jpg)

And here it is with the 110 volt, DC motor that will become the generator...

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20151212_22_57_15_Rich_zpsfatsjdrl.jpg?t=1449897193)

I also made the needle valve for the carburetor but still need to solder the needle into the adjustment screw.

Still todo:

- Drill and tap setscrew hole for the hall sensor magnet disk
- Tap and install the throttle screw in the carburetor
- Install the hall sensor and mount the ignition board under the base, drill holes and route wiring
- Make and install the fuel tank

Think that's it...

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Roger B on December 13, 2015, 06:47:57 PM
Definitely looking like an engine now  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp: I will be interested to compare the results from your generator with the ones from my horizontal engine  :)
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cheepo45 on December 13, 2015, 08:11:13 PM
Very nice engine! I also hope plans are available someday.
 cheepo45
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on December 13, 2015, 09:57:18 PM
Wonderful Chuck. I love the base too and the fact that the flywheel is exposed on the far side. It adds interest to the whole thing as well as being practical for flywheel removal!! Looking forward to the first pops.

Bill
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Don1966 on December 14, 2015, 12:45:57 AM
Oh yea! That's is differently looking good Chuck. Your the master as always and I am waiting for the first pop bud.

Don
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on December 17, 2015, 01:07:41 AM
Thanks, all, for the comments.  I'm taking tiny steps at this point, trying to make sure the end result is just right.  Today I made the fuel tank,  It's made of brass, copper and aluminum.   The brass bottom is soldered to the copper tank.  The aluminum top is Loctited onto the copper.  The tank is 1 5/8" diameter and about 2" tall.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20151216_18_38_35_Rich_zpstzxzndhi.jpg?t=1450227640)

The tank fits neatly inside the base with just the top poking out.  A fuel draw tube extends down the inside to the bottom of the tank.  It has slits in the side so it can sit right on the bottom.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20151216_18_39_24_Rich_zpsq4dl8kcv.jpg?t=1450227646)

I also got the Hall sensor clamp finished.  The sensor slips inside a protective plastic tube that Roy Scholl provides with the sensor.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20151216_18_42_30_Rich_zps9vhnzgjt.jpg?t=1450227646)

Timing will be accomplished by rotating the aluminum magnet disk on the cam.

I've ordered a battery case with integrated switch.  It takes 3, AA batteries and puts out 4.5 volts, just right for the Roy Scholl ignition module.  I'll need to work on getting the generator installed, but will almost certainly try starting it before that.

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on December 17, 2015, 01:32:06 AM
The fuel tank looks good Chuck, a shame to hide that nice copper below the deck though :)

Bill
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: rudydubya on December 17, 2015, 07:35:19 AM
Still following along and looking forward to your first run Chuck.  Impressive work, as usual.  Did you make that nice little elbow on your fuel tank?

Regards,
Rudy
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on December 17, 2015, 04:20:50 PM
Thanks, Bill.  I needed to drop the fuel tank down since the carburetor sits so low on the engine.

Thanks, Rudy, the elbow is a casting from PM Research.  They sell model pipe fittings in various sizes.  All I had to do was drill it out.  Usually I would tap them for screw fittings but this one is soldered.

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Johnmcc69 on December 17, 2015, 04:39:02 PM
Great looking engine Chuck! Not much longer before it's a runner!

 John
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on December 17, 2015, 06:42:22 PM
Chuck, the tank looks great , as does everything else.  I was kinda waiting to see if you used the infamous "pimento jar " again.  Really anxious to see what this one sounds like.

Cletus
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on December 18, 2015, 04:15:22 AM
I just wanted to provide some additional information on the dual (waste fire) spark ignition module I bought from Roy Scholl at S/S Engineering.  I noticed there was no ground wire from the circuit board to the engine like his single spark boards had.  I emailed him to ask where the ground wire from the engine needed to be connected and he replied that no ground wire is required.  Apparently, the two high tension leads come from opposite ends of the secondary coil, which basically places the two spark plugs in series.  The spark passes through one spark plug, through the engine, and back out the second spark plug.

Quite ingenious, actually.

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: gldavison on December 19, 2015, 02:10:26 PM
I have one of those on my Hoglet. It works very well.
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: RJH on December 20, 2015, 04:23:04 PM
When you fire #1  cyl on TDC what keeps the #2 cyl at bottom dead center from also firing? It has a new fuel charge.
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on December 20, 2015, 05:32:23 PM
When you fire #1  cyl on TDC what keeps the #2 cyl at bottom dead center from also firing? It has a new fuel charge.

I believe that it won't ignite because it isn't compressed.  I had another engine with the same firing cycle as this one and that second cylinder didn't ignite...

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on December 22, 2015, 03:53:43 AM
I made the mounting bracket for the generator.  The generator is a 120 volt, 65 watt DC motor I bought on Ebay.  I may wire it up to double as a starter for the engine.  I used my CNC Mill to cut the mounting bracket from a piece of aluminum angle.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20151221_21_35_38_Rich_zpsg9rllwwt.jpg)

I had to replace the two bolts that hold the motor together with longer, stouter bolts that would extend through the mounting bracket.

Here's a layout with everything except the light bulb, which will be mounted in the left rear corner of the base.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20151221_21_36_27_Rich_zpshv5qncx4.jpg)

The battery box with integral switch is in the left front corner, as shown.

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on December 24, 2015, 10:05:44 PM
Here's a few teaser pictures.  I believe it's ready to run.  All I have to do is add fuel, turn on the ignition and give 'er a spin (or two). 

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20151224_15_52_52_Rich_zpshzak9t2d.jpg)

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20151224_15_52_19_Rich_zpsaf5dvlqk.jpg?t=1450908199)

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20151224_15_51_57_Rich_zpsvesdc8le.jpg?t=1450908199)

Haven't installed the generator and light yet, but that can wait a bit...

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on December 24, 2015, 10:16:41 PM
So is old Santa going to surprise us with a runner?  :stir:

Cletus
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 24, 2015, 10:38:12 PM
That's looking might fine Chuck.
The flywheel re wooden base looks great!
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Don1966 on December 24, 2015, 10:41:30 PM
Love the look Chuck just waiting for the run. ........... :Love:

 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on December 24, 2015, 11:03:49 PM
Thanks, guys.  Looks like it won't keep us waiting.  Started pretty much right away.  Unfortunately, it's only hitting on one cylinder...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxOoJL3iEIo

Apparently I have an intake valve leak on one of the cylinders.  I can feel considerable blowback through the carburetor when it's running.  So, a little more work to do.  I'll do another video when I get it running properly.

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on December 24, 2015, 11:14:58 PM
That is looking very nice Chuck!

I like the contrast of the different woods; and the whole display is looking pretty sharp!

Dave
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on December 24, 2015, 11:16:50 PM
Congrats Chuck!

She runs real nice.

Dave
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Kim on December 25, 2015, 12:01:58 AM
That's pretty exciting!  Even on one cylinder it runs great. It'll really hum when you get that other one figured out!  It really is a nice looking engine Chuck.
Kim
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Don1966 on December 25, 2015, 12:29:29 AM
That's pretty exciting Chuck and I have no doubt that you'll get it right. I still love the sound even with one cylinder.

Don
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 25, 2015, 01:13:04 AM
Great stuff, Chuck!!! I look forward to a run with both cylinders firing. One of the things I noticed on my "oscillating " engine with an aluminum cylinder, is that when it ran, the engine never really got hot enough to burn off the lube oil that I add to the fuel. The resulting oil puddle that collected around the exhaust port was very, very black.  I think that the blackness was a result of the aluminum cylinder "degrading" as the engine ran. From what I have been able to learn about, most small engines with aluminum cylinders, such as chainsaws, weed-whackers, etcetera use a cast aluminum which has very different properties than the 6061 aluminum I use for my cylinder. I will be interested in the results that you see with your engine.---Brian
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on December 25, 2015, 03:59:52 AM
Fantastic Chuck!! I am sure you will get the other cylinder sorted out soon enough. Nice runner even on one cylinder though :)

Bill
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Roger B on December 25, 2015, 09:13:29 AM
Looks and sounds good  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp: I hope Santa gives to other cylinder some compression for  Xmas  :)
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: kettrinboy on December 25, 2015, 10:12:14 AM
Great stuff, Chuck!!! I look forward to a run with both cylinders firing. One of the things I noticed on my "oscillating " engine with an aluminum cylinder, is that when it ran, the engine never really got hot enough to burn off the lube oil that I add to the fuel. The resulting oil puddle that collected around the exhaust port was very, very black.  I think that the blackness was a result of the aluminum cylinder "degrading" as the engine ran. From what I have been able to learn about, most small engines with aluminum cylinders, such as chainsaws, weed-whackers, etcetera use a cast aluminum which has very different properties than the 6061 aluminum I use for my cylinder. I will be interested in the results that you see with your engine.---Brian
Hi Brian
I would have thought that any commercially produced engine with aluminium cylinders as well as having a high silicon content in the alloy would use some sort of hard coating like nicasil or chrome to prevent rapid wear , but for the model engineer probably hard anodising is  the only viable option , it will be interesting to see how many hours a plain aluminium cylinder would last though.
regards Geoff
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Ian S C on December 25, 2015, 11:57:59 AM
I think aluminium cylinders that I know of have chromed bores.
Ian S C
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on December 25, 2015, 03:47:51 PM
Brian, although this is my first IC engine with aluminum cylinders, I get the same black residue from my other engines, which have cast iron or 12L14 cylinders.  I'm guessing there is some accelerated wear on the aluminum cylinders when new but will diminish as the engine gets broken in.

It's interesting to note that I got the black residue around the exhaust of the cylinder that was firing but not on the cylinder that was not firing.

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Hugh Currin on December 25, 2015, 04:35:53 PM
Chuck:

That's a nice looking engine. Nice design and very nice execution. The base sets the engine off nicely. And it runs! It would just be too easy if it ran on both cylinders right off.

Congratulations and thanks for bringing us along.

Hugh
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: fumopuc on December 25, 2015, 05:54:19 PM
Hi Chuck, congratulation for this runner. There are no doubts that it will run on both cylinder very soon.
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Rustkolector on December 25, 2015, 06:27:53 PM
Chuck & Brian,
Your black residue is very likely just carbon from partially burnt fuel/oil, and is quite normal. Its very characteristic of fuel/oil mixes where exhaust temps are low and the oil never burns completely. Even 60:1 MMO mixes don't burn completely at no load. 

Merry Christmas everyone!

Jeff
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 25, 2015, 07:24:35 PM
Chuck & Brian,
Your black residue is very likely just carbon from partially burnt fuel/oil, and is quite normal. Its very characteristic of fuel/oil mixes where exhaust temps are low and the oil never burns completely. Even 60:1 MMO mixes don't burn completely at no load. 

Merry Christmas everyone!

Jeff

Rustkolector--I have 8 other engines with cast iron cylinders that don't give the same very black oil residue. I'm sure it has to do with the aluminum cylinder.---Brian
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: gldavison on December 26, 2015, 12:40:32 AM
My Snow engine has stainless steel cylinder liners, aluminum pistons with o-rings, and I get the same black oil in the exhaust.

Hope everyone has a Merry Christmas.
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Rustkolector on December 26, 2015, 03:35:41 AM
I have never seen a 4 stroke model engine running with a gasoline (camp fuel)/oil mix that did not show sooty oily exhaust. If you run a higher cylinder temperature and add adequate load to the engine, the exhaust temperature increases resulting in more complete combustion of the oil. Without higher internal temperatures, the combustion temperature remains too low to completely burn the oil. MMO is a very light oil and is more easily burned in model engines. A 60:1 MMO mix is  normally adequate, but even MMO still leaves some partially burnt (soot), as well as totally unburnt (liquid) oil in the exhaust without some load. Heavier oils will make this condition worse. A similar condition exists in full size engines and is called "wet stacking".
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: NickG on December 26, 2015, 07:59:20 AM
That looks superb Chuck, congratulations. Thanks for showing the build and Merry Christmas!
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Ian S C on December 26, 2015, 10:45:39 AM
I'd stick to black and oily, at least you know your getting lubrication.
Ian S C
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on January 02, 2016, 04:24:23 PM
I've tried a number of things to seal up the valves on the misbehaving cylinder to no avail.  So, I've pressed the offending valve cages out of the cylinder head and will make new ones.  I also bought a Mityvac hand vacuum pump and am making a test rig so I can test the seal of the new valve cages before I install them in the head.  I'll post some pictures and a description of how it works.  I'm waiting on the arrival of a couple of pieces in the mail, notably a vacuum gauge and a 45 degree muzzle chamfering cutter from Brownell's which I'll use to cut the new valve seats.

The Mityvac is sold by autoparts stores for draining brake fluid from cars.  Here is what it looks like...

(http://www.olct.co/images/Product_Images/Mityvac/MV4510/500/Mityvac_Motorcycle_Cooling_System_Pressure_Tester_Hero.jpg)

I got my inspiration for the vacuum pump and the valve seat cutter from Terry Mayhugh who came up with the idea.  He has been perfecting methods for making valves and seats since he has made a bunch of them for his 9 cylinder and 18 cylinder radial as well as his v-12 Merlin.

Unfortunately, fixing this problem hasn't been cheap.  The chamfer cutter was $66 with shipping, the Mityvac was $40 with tax, and the vacuum gauge was another $8. 
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 02, 2016, 04:48:51 PM
Happy New Year chuck!!--I too will be watching to see the results with your vacuum tester. Leaky valves seem to be the bane of our existence.---Brian
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: petertha on January 04, 2016, 07:53:05 PM
Chuck, I'm not at the running stage, but have been messing with this same procedure for my engine (similarly inspired by Terry's methods). As I mention somewhere in there, be aware you can get tricked by a false indication of seal by drawing vacuum through the valve cage stem with a valve in place. A closely fitting valve stem within its cage hole can make for a constrained annular area which will hold some pressure... which can mask/over-ride  an otherwise leaking valve seat. Hope this makes sense.
http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/showthread.php?t=24516&page=3

I know you bought your vac tester already, but this one comes with gauge & some useful bits for a bit less $.
http://www.amazon.ca/Mityvac-MV8000-Automotive-Test-Bleeding/dp/B00265M9SS/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1451936378&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=mity+vac

Good luck & keep us posted on results
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on January 13, 2016, 04:58:30 AM
My 45 degree chamfer cutter, which I ordered from Brownell's nearly 2 weeks ago, finally came in yesterday.  It's a nicely finished cutter but it was pricey @ $66 including shipping.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20160112_17_07_03_Pro_zpsqt1ipxco.jpg?t=1452573813)

It has a 3/16" center hole and a set screw for a pilot shaft.  I tried using it on some brass valve cages that I had remade, but I kept getting a lot of chatter.  So, I remade the valve cages  out of 303 stainless.  That solved the chatter problem, but I still got a bit of faceting on the valve seats.  So, I used a Dremel grindstone that had been dressed to 45 degrees on the back.  Using the stone's shaft as a pilot, I was able to grind out the facets pretty easily since they were really shallow.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20160112_17_21_05_Pro_zpsppsjwnhi.jpg?t=1452574350)

I had to use a short length of brass tubing as a sleeve so the grindstone shaft would fit the valve guides.

Next I used some Timesaver Fine lapping compound to lap the valves against the seats.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20160112_17_09_14_Pro_zpsfrl6ciac.jpg?t=1452574348)

This stuff comes as a powder and you mix it with a little bit of oil to make a paste.  It's friable and breaks down to a polish as it works between the parts.  Gotta say it really works fast and produces a great finish.  You can see the lapped rings on the valve faces in the photo below.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20160112_17_07_39_Pro_zps4d1dbr8v.jpg?t=1452574350)

I tested the two valves and cages with my vacuum testor and they are holding a vacuum just fine.  I'm going to remake the cages for the other cylinder out of stainless as well.

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: 10KPete on January 13, 2016, 05:21:53 AM
Chuck, did you turn the Brownells cutter by hand or in a machine? They are intended to be hand turned with very light
pressure. I'm disappointed in any case 'cause I went round and round with them years ago about not grinding the edges
on equal spaces. The edges have to be a bit off of even to stop any chatter, even hand turning.

Pete
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on January 13, 2016, 06:55:47 AM
Chuck, did you turn the Brownells cutter by hand or in a machine? They are intended to be hand turned with very light
pressure. I'm disappointed in any case 'cause I went round and round with them years ago about not grinding the edges
on equal spaces. The edges have to be a bit off of even to stop any chatter, even hand turning.

Pete

Yes, I turned it by hand...
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: petertha on January 13, 2016, 07:27:16 AM
I tested the two valves and cages with my vacuum testor and they are holding a vacuum just fine.

Did you catch my comment in post 210? Drawing a vacuum through a hose attached to the cage can give you a false sense of good vacuum seal because drawdown can be heavily influenced by the (green dash line) small annulus between valve stem OD & cage ID (assuming you did it this way). Particularly if these parts are a nice, close sliding fit or even a hint of oil. At least that was my experience. I picked up on this when I noticed the valve was slightly off the seat during a test & the vac needle slowly descended vs. snapping back to atmospheric. Hope this makes sense.
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Mayhugh1 on January 13, 2016, 07:57:31 AM
Chuck,
Yeah, ... just what Peter said. Remember when you were at my house and we were testing your previous cages, we were using a special valve that I had with a slotted stem so we could pull the vacuum through the slot and the rear of the cage. You have to have the slotted test valve if you want to pretest your cages with a leakdown test. If you remember, my valve was so much bigger that what you were using that we weren't sure if the face wasn't sitting properly on the seat and so we didn't know if the bad leakdown times were real or not. Making a batch of identical valves isn't the hardest part - its the seats that are the bigger unknowns. I always modify at least one valve out of the lot for a test valve that has this slot if I'm going to leak check the cages before installing them. - Terry
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on January 13, 2016, 04:07:14 PM
When I tested the leakdown before lapping, the gauge fell to zero in under a second which tells me that air is able to get past the valve stem.  After I lapped the valve, it didn't fall at all.  I know the vacuum test isn't conclusive, but it's a start.

One point of concern is that I can't get the vacuum gauge to go above about 21, even if I'm just holding my finger over the end of the tube.  Might be that the gauge is defective.  I only have about 1 1/2" of tubing between the pump and the valve so I don't think it's a volume issue.

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Mayhugh1 on January 13, 2016, 04:19:29 PM
Chuck,
It sounds like your gage just isn't precisely calibrated.
If your valve stem clearance is such that your vacuum can drop that fast on an unfinished seat then it might also account for some of the chatter/facetting you were seeing with the seat cutter. I like to add a little thick oil or grease to the valve stem when that happens, and it seems to always help. Just be sure to clean out the oil before you run your leakdown test if you're not using a slotted test valve. - Terry
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on January 13, 2016, 07:27:19 PM
Hi Chuck

I have one of those hand operated vacuum pumps and just checked it; I can get it to max out at 25" of Hg; not really sure what they are supposed to be capable of.

Dave
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Rustkolector on January 14, 2016, 12:46:18 AM
Chuck,
For what its worth, here is my experience making phosphor bronze valve cages. I had trouble at first. Some good ones, some bad, and I didn’t know why. I read an article in MEB about making valve cages and it works for me. Starting with a stick of phosphor bronze, turn to finish OD, drill or bore out interior, drill the valve stem hole under-size, then bore out and ream the valve stem hole to assure concentricity with the cut seat. In the same set up i use the boring bar to also cut the 45 degree valve set. Don’t forget the valve seat should only by .010” - .015” wide at most. This provides good seating pressure. My valve stems so far have all been .125" dia. I bought a tiny Mirco 100 .100” wide boring bar. Super sharp and also cuts a nice valve seat using half dozen, or so passes.

I have a place where I can select and mic the drill rod from the vendors stock. I look for sizes that fit my reamers with good hand press fits. Usually reputable vendors provide quality drill rod very close to nominal dimensions, and I gladly pay for it. I have gotten a lot of near max tolerance size drill rod from some of the on-line houses which requires hand honing to get good stem to guide fits. Very time consuming. I usually try for a sliding fit with some drag that will wear in quickly. Don’t ever lap the guides as that produces too much clearance. Experience tells me that concentricity and stem/guide fit to be most important to good seating valves in a new engine. To negate any leakage through the guide from affecting my vacuum test readings I generously lube the stem and guide with SAE 90 gear lube for testing only. SAE #10 thereafter.

The narrow seat width does not seem to wear. I have an engine with an atmospheric intake valve that runs at 1500 RPM with well over 50 hours on it. While the spring pressure is low, the little intake valve hammers away, but the intake seat still looks good and still seals tightly like new.

I have also noticed that a good fitting valve and seat makes a “popping” noise at the cage port when you slap it shut smartly with your finger.  This procedure also makes a light 360 degree witness mark on a nicely finished and good fitting valve face.

The tubing that originally came with my Mighty Vac tester was soft Tygon type tubing and it collapsed at high vacuum readings giving me false 25" readings. Use stiffer vinyl tubing

Jeff
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: petertha on January 14, 2016, 06:04:34 AM
I have a place where I can select and mic the drill rod from the vendors stock. I look for sizes that fit my reamers with good hand press fits. Jeff
Jeff, sorry I'm not quite following - what do you use the drill rod for exactly? Part of the cage making process? Or maybe these are stems for built up valves vs machined with integrated stem + tulip heads?
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Rustkolector on January 14, 2016, 07:07:35 PM
Petertha,
Sorry. I was thinking ahead of my typing. Yes, I build up my valves with drill rod stems and SS heads. I silver braze the two together. A small pot chuck is used to hold the valves for facing in the lathe.

Jeff
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on January 15, 2016, 05:14:02 AM
Still no joy on my valves sealing.   Not sure what's going on.  It seems like the valves get harder and harder on each successive engine I build.   :Mad:  So, I've ordered a couple of micro boring bars.  I'll try boring the valve guide and valve seat to see if I can get them absolutely concentric and the proper diameter.  I've got a few days to wait for McMaster to get my items to me.  Guess I'll focus on my solenoid engine for a while.

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: kettrinboy on January 15, 2016, 09:57:24 AM
Hi Chuck
I,m doing a Webster type motor for my next build and for the valve cages in bronze i will drill and ream the guide bore and leave eveything else oversize as bronze is one of the worst metals for making a drill wander and reaming it wont bring it back,  for finishing i would make a mandrel out of steel for best strength and hold the cage on it with a small screw and washer , you can even get a small centre in the screwhead as extra support if needed and then finish all other outside diameters and also cut the seat angle, when cutting angles even if you have the topslide unchanged from when you cut the angle on the head of the valves you must keep each tool dead on centre height as any variation will affect the angle produced , i,m going to make the valve stems on my engine 3/16" dia instead of 1/8 " dia and waist them near the valve head , you could try boring the guide holes but if the drill has wandered at the back of the bore a small bar may still push off a bit, a small solid carbide bar would be best but they may be too short for a valve guide , ive used the mandrel method before on things like displacer rod bushes for some of my hot air engines and it works well.
regards Geoff
ps sometimes flattening off  the cutting edges on the drill makes it less prone to wander in bronze
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: gbritnell on January 15, 2016, 11:48:44 AM
High Chuck,
I know you like I have been doing this for quite some time so this is only meant as a suggestion. Rather than cut the seat while machining the inserts why not leave it until the insert is pressed/Loctited into the head and then using a tool like the one that I had posted in the past cut the seat. This way if there is any distortion while installing the valve cage the seat will be cut concentric with the guide.
Personally I have never used the valve cage method. The engines that I have either have the seats and guides machined into the heads or they have pressed in guides and seats. In either case I cut the seats post installation.
gbritnell
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on January 20, 2016, 02:32:01 AM
Thanks, all, for the comments and suggestions.  I had ordered a couple of solid carbide micro boring bars from McMaster Carr.  One was a .120 minimum bore and the other .180.   They arrived yesterday, so, after making a holder, today, I started on the 3rd round of valve cages.  I started by cutting the blanks to the correct diameter and length.  I also necked down the end where the valve spring goes. 

This evening I set to work drilling and boring the centers.  First, I center drilled the big end of the cage.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20160119_19_22_49_Pro_zpsme7frdal.jpg)

Next I drilled a 1/8" hole all the way through the center.  Then I used a 3/16" drill to enlarge the big end, 5/16" deep.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20160119_19_26_03_Pro_zpscetew8cu.jpg)

Then I used the larger boring bar to bore the big end to 7/32" diameter.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20160119_19_28_55_Pro_zpswax6qtgr.jpg)

Next I used the smaller boring bar to bore the valve guide to .150.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20160119_19_31_05_Pro_zpseisrwg9z.jpg)

Then I reamed the valve guide to 5/32" diameter.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20160119_19_36_09_Pro_zpsshddudky.jpg)

Here are the valve cages with the center bores done.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20160119_19_37_50_Pro_zpstkurioln.jpg)

I haven't cut the valve seats yet.  I'm going to take George's advice and install the cages in the head first.  Then I'll use my 45 degree, piloted chamfer cutter to form the seats.  Lastly, I'll lap the valves to the seats.

I'm satisfied that I have the valve guide bore and the valve seat bore concentric at this point.  If, after lapping, I still can't get a seal, then I'll have to figure the valves are bad.

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: petertha on January 20, 2016, 03:53:06 AM
This is what I was trying to convey with words in your other post. By pre-drilling the big bore first and then drilling the small diameter valve stem hole second, it minimizes the penetration length of small drill & therefore side drift effect (at least in my simple mind). I was able to spot center drill the valve stem hole inside the cage hole the same way as on the end of the stock. I found out about drift drilling aluminum 3mm diameter & about 20mm depth, for sure was detectable. The pattern on front face was 'more than a couple thou' off pattern on exit face. This is where the parabolic drill helped a lot, but maybe that was an aluminum specific thing. Reamers just tend to follow the hole & not straighten them much. Makes you marvel at a gun barrel bore! Anyway, good luck, keep us posted. This is a tricky bit of engine building for sure.
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on January 20, 2016, 05:52:53 PM
Yes, I was worried about the smaller drill bit wandering.  That's why I drilled it undersize, then enlarged it with a small boring bar before reaming.  I believe the smaller valve guide should now be straight and concentric with the valve seat.  I haven't cut the actual seat yet, but the two bores should be concentric.

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Mayhugh1 on January 23, 2016, 05:21:48 PM
Chuck,
I've been gone for a while, but the last post I saw of yours was #222 in which you had gotten good leakdown times on your cages with your vacuum tester. You were using the actual valves that would go with the cages instead of a grooved test valve since you felt you had enough valve stem clearance to pull the vacuum at tbe rear of tbe cage. Shortly later your valves were leaky again. What changed? Bent valve? -Terry
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on January 23, 2016, 06:11:30 PM
Terry, turns out my gauge was faulty, I've replaced the gauge and I'm satisfied that the pump and gauge are working OK.  But there is still a leak somewhere in the assembly.  Could be from the vacuum pump to the valve cage or the valve seat or in the head somewhere.  I've remade two of the valves and lapped the exhaust valve.  Still got a leak somewhere in the assembly.

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 23, 2016, 06:43:17 PM
You have two of the most important skills...persistence and patience.

That leak has a target on it.
Or as we say in programming...that bug is sweating.
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on January 24, 2016, 05:11:41 AM
I appreciate he vote of confidence, Zee.  Gotta say, my patience is wearing a little thin on this engine.  Never had this much of a problem before.  But, I've come this far, I have to see it through to completion.  :wallbang:
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Ian S C on January 24, 2016, 11:53:53 AM
On long holes like the valve guides my method is to drill about half way through with a smaller drill, the turn the item around in the chuck, and recentre, then drill from that end to meet the hole, I then drill right through with a larger drill before reaming.  Don't now if this is correct practice, but it's my way, and with valve guides they have to be straight.
Ian S C
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 24, 2016, 01:31:09 PM
Chuck--I feel your pain!! I was there during the build of the Kerzel engine. For what it's worth--I drill and ream the small hole all the way through first in the valve cage.  I actually use a milling cutter to make the counterbore.  Then I run the reamer through one more time to clear up any burr the larger counterbore tool may have raised. I don't use a boring tool at all. I cut the seats with a 45 degree "George Britnell type tool" after the valve cages have been pressed and Loctited into the heads. I cut the valves with an included angle of 92 degrees to give me a line contact at the top of the seat. I lap with 400 grit, then with 600 grit by hand---this removes the line contact and gives a bevelled face contact of about .015" wide. I make my valves from mild steel and the valve cages from brass. The brass is soft enough that if I can get the engine to fire at all, the forces created by combustion will drive the valve into the seat hard enough to completely seal any small amount of leakage that is occuring.--I'm sure you know all this.--Philip Duclos recommends that you don't make the stem a really close fit into the guide. He suggests that if there is a small amount of "unconcentricity" between the valve and the seat a bit of sloppiness in the guide area will let the valve "find" its own concentric seat in the valve seat area to give a better seal. I'm not sure that I buy this theory--I use an "on size" reamer and sandpaper the valve stem for a smooth sliding fit, no slop. Good Luck---Brian
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: NickG on January 24, 2016, 07:59:37 PM
Philip Duclos' theory makes sense to me, although you then would have to be careful that the spring wasn't tipping the valve off its seat. As you say though, once the thing fires combustion forced should prevail anyway.
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on January 25, 2016, 06:02:02 PM
Thanks for the words of encouragement and thoughts on how to fix this situation. 

It occurred to me this morning that my problem might be the valve springs. 

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20160125_11_51_00_Pro1_zps5jpkhjvi.jpg)

These are the only common items through 3 sets of valve cages, 2 sets of valves, and numerous attempts at shaping and lapping the valve faces and seats.  It's quite possible the unfinished end on the bottom of the spring is cocking the valve, despite the rather close tolerance between the valve stem and valve guide.

I'm going to start from scratch, make new cages and springs.  Gotta run down some music wire for the new springs.  The local guitar shop (we have a lot of those here in Austin, Tx) should be able to supply me with some g-strings which, at .017", is about what I need.

More later...

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Brian on January 25, 2016, 06:57:00 PM
Hi Chuck
 If you place the odd end of your spring on the side of thewheel on your workshop grinder and gently grind the end you will find that it heats up and collapses  to match the factory end . this means you must start out with a spring that's to long but it works a treat   a little practice  on odd pieces of spring will pay dividends. I also use my 1" belt sander for this job.
 You do not have to worry about the temper just let it cool naturally.

Brian--H
 
OH   I forgot Don't worry to much about compression it will start if you put a whiff of propane or your favourite gas down the inlet , you don't even need a carb just waft the gas away from the inlet to control the speed, just don't point it near the contact points, you will be amazed  how the sealing improves with a little running

 Some thing I know others I haven't a clue.
 Regards Brian.
 The work shop safety Police will be knocking on my door any moment now.
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on January 26, 2016, 01:20:59 AM
Hi Chuck

I would think a city the size of Austin would have a decent hobby shop, and they should have music wire.

Dave
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Hugh Currin on January 26, 2016, 02:12:25 AM
Chuck:

I know little on the subject but have two questions. First, have you tested the valve seat on any of your other engines? It may be they don't seal any better than the current ones. If so, the main problem may not be in the valve seating?

Second, if you use the seat cutting tool it shouldn't be critical to have the valve guide bores dead on? The cutting tool will cut a seat concentric with the small reamed hole. Might be a smidge wider on one side but still be on center and seal.

I have tubes of .013", .020", 0.22" & .029" music wire, maybe 10" lengths. I could put a few pieces in an envelope and send to ya. If this'd help send me a PM.

Thanks.

Hugh
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: kuhncw on January 26, 2016, 03:21:26 AM
I've found a stethoscope is handy for tracking down compression leaks on model engines.  Take the sensor off  off and just use the tubing.  Give the engine flip by hand while listening at the exhaust, intake, or at the back of the cylinder, assuming an open crankcase.  If you have a leak, you'll hear it.

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on January 26, 2016, 05:20:52 AM
Thanks, all, for the comments and suggestions.  I procured some music wire in the form of generic guitar strings from Danny Rae's music about 2 miles from my house.  I have made a fixture from a 12-24 SHCS that I'll use to wind the springs on.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20160125_23_02_47_Pro_zps29ttjm2f.jpg)

The turned portions with the thread removed are for the ending coils on each end of the spring.

We have a couple of hobby shops fairly close, but I find their inventory is short on raw building materials like brass tubing, threaded rod, etc., and long on big ticket items like quad-copters and RC cars.  Guess that's were the money is these days.

Finding the leaks is no problem.  I can feel the pressure and hear the farting noise as air escapes around my finger when I place it over the exhaust port, when valve is supposed  to be closed.  I feel pretty confident that the new springs will solve my problem.  Got my fingers crossed anyway...

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: 10KPete on January 26, 2016, 06:02:36 AM
I haven't been makin' much noise Chuck but have been watching. I'm pullin' for 'ya!!

Pete
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 26, 2016, 01:19:11 PM
I am hoping you may be on to something with the springs Chuck. Looking forward to seeing it run as I know you are too!!

Bill
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on January 28, 2016, 12:19:52 AM
There's light at the end of the tunnel.  I made new springs with smaller wire, more coils, and better finished ends.  Also made and installed 4 new valve cages out of brass.  I made a new 45 degree tool to form the valve seat.  And so far, I've made 2 new valves.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20160127_15_01_41_Pro_zpstedfc7rv.jpg)

I reassembled the engine with new valves and spark plug installed on one cylinder.  The results are positive.  I'm getting good bounce back against compression and can't hear any signs of a leak.  So, tomorrow, I'll make new valves for the other cylinder and we'll see how it goes.

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 28, 2016, 01:06:56 AM
I'm hoping for your success Chuck. Once again you and I have got to the same place at the same time.---brian
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 28, 2016, 01:18:20 AM
The results are positive.

 :pinkelephant:
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 28, 2016, 02:22:02 AM
That sounds VERY encouraging Chuck!!  Do you attribute it more to the springs or the new cutting tool?

Bill
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on January 28, 2016, 02:38:00 AM
That sounds VERY encouraging Chuck!!  Do you attribute it more to the springs or the new cutting tool?

Bill

Bill, I think the other cages and valves would have worked with the new springs.  However, I had already removed the cages from the head when it occurred to me that the springs might be at fault.  So, I had to move forward.

The new cages, both the valve guides and the valve seat circumferences, were turned in the lathe with solid carbide boring bars.  So I'm positive they are concentric.  The new valves faces were turned at the same time the new chamferring tool was made without changing the lathe compound, so I know they are the same angle.  I think all the changes I made greatly improved the odds that the valves would seat properly.  Still have the other two valves to make, but I haven't changed the lathe compound so they should turn out fine.  Fingers crossed!

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: NickG on January 28, 2016, 08:17:18 PM
That sounds the best way to do it  chuck, if its bouncing back that sounds excellent. Good luck.
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on January 29, 2016, 03:46:49 PM
Crap, I guess I got a little too cocky.  Can't get the new valves to seal in the second cylinder.  This one was working OK before I remade the valves and cages, now not so much.  So, back in the shop today to figure out what to do next.

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 29, 2016, 10:21:29 PM
 :'(

But soon, I'm sure, we'll come back to our regular programming of  :pinkelephant:
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on January 29, 2016, 10:38:52 PM
So I figured out an easier way to tell if the valves are leaking.  With the valves, springs, and retainers installed, just fill up the port behind the valve with penetrating oil.  If the valve isn't airtight, the oil will seep out around the valve seat pretty much immediately.  The valves that are sealing don't leak any penetrating oil.

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on January 30, 2016, 04:16:25 AM
Nothing I do seems to make any difference.  So, now, I'm thinking air is leaking around the outside of the valve cage.  I have no easy way to check that so I've pressed out the old valve cages on the misbehaving cylinder and will make new ones tomorrow.  Instead of depending on Loctite for the seal, I will make the valve cages a little bigger and press them in.

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Art K on January 30, 2016, 04:51:00 AM
Chuck,
Sorry to see this giving you so much difficulty, but you will get it sorted out and we will all be going :whoohoo:. I recall that when I built my Upshur when I had pressed in the valve guides I had modified them with a small step on the bottom so they couldn't push out. I had heard say that someone had that problem, and I wasn't going to go there. The unintended side effect was they didn't have that extra length to keep them straight with the bore. I pulled the valve out marked the sealing edge with a sharpie, spun the valve on that surface and it left a shiny spot where it rubbed. I adjusted the guide with a piece of wood and a screw driver(very light hammer), repeating the sharpie and valve bit. After that it wasn't compression but cam timing keeping me from the happy dance. I don't know if that sealing test is helpful but I throw it out there because it worked for me. It may tell you if the edge is sealing with the valve.
Art
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on January 30, 2016, 06:21:05 AM
Art, thanks for the tip.  I was trying to figure out a way to mark the seat to see if I could determine if and where it was rubbing.  The sharpie is a good idea!

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: petertha on January 30, 2016, 07:35:41 AM
I know when you get it solved there will be some very useful & appreciative learning's for all of us to benefit from here. Just throwing out ideas here, but do you think:
(using my picture as example, but I don't know it may be different than your configuration)

- if you cross drilled the gas passage into the cage, was that before or after dressing the valve cage seat? ie. maybe the drilling force or breakthrough slightly upset or distorted the valve seat geometry?

- maybe drilling the gas passage opened up a gap between valve cage & its head hole? (do you mean when you are oil fill testing through the port, you can tell if its leaking somewhere other than the valve seat?)

- on the head ceiling of the valve cage hole (point 2), this is what was causing me grief. I used a reamer for nice hole but the reamer end is chamfered 45-deg. My original valve cage was less chamfered so it was bottoming out prematurely on the 45-deg ledge, not flush on the hole bottom resulting in an air gap on top of the valve cage. So I made a matching or larger chamfer on the valve cage so it sits flush consistent. I guess if the cage/hole annulus was locktited & sealed, this shouldn't be an issue, but just mentioning in case you have a similar issue. All it takes is a whisker of opening anywhere & that's where the gas would flow least resistance

- some post running valve seat issues. I get the impression it started to injest some micro particles. I wish I had a microscope/lens like that.. I hav e afeeling I'll be needing one myself!  http://homepage2.nifty.com/modelicengine/k081002.htm







Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Roger B on January 30, 2016, 08:40:16 AM
Chuck, can you post a drawing of a section through the current valve, cage and port arrangement?

A couple of thoughts:

The port seems quite close to the seat. Are you getting distortion when you drill the port hole through the cage? Will the cage distort at this point if you press it in?

Is the valve guide length enough? Your cylinder head seems quite thin to get the port and a decent length of guide in.

Is it the same cylinder or valve that is giving problems? Could the bore in the head be out of round (possibly due to the port hole)?
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on January 30, 2016, 05:02:08 PM
Thanks Petertha, Roger, for the suggestions. Here is a drawing of the valve cage also showing the valve and the head:

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/Valve%20Cage_zpsovngrl9d.jpg)

The valve cage was turned to shape and bored to finish dimensions but I did not form the valve seat.  Then I installed the cage into the head using 620 Loctite.  It was a loose sliding fit, but I was concerned at the time that the fit might be too tight for a Loctite joint, that some of the Loctite would get wiped off when slid into the head.

After the Loctite had set, I drilled the cross passages from the head into the sides of the valve cages.  Finally, I formed the seats with my 45 degree piloted chamfering tool, then lapped the valves against the seats. 

Near as I can tell, I'm only having a problem with the one intake valve.  The leak is massive and, as I said, nothing I do seems to make any difference.  I've inspected the valve and the seat, and both seem to be nicely finished with no grooves.  The valve has a uniform, gray ring from the lapping. 

When I poured the oil into the intake port, I was unable to tell if the oil was coming out around the valve seat or around the outside of the valve cage.

On my next go around, I will use the oil trick before I drill the cross passages into the cages.  That will tell me if the valve cages are sealed into the head.

I don't think there is any distortion from the drilling.  The valve cages are brass and drill pretty easily. 

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: NickG on January 30, 2016, 05:14:19 PM
Sounds like the leak is around the cage, but at the same time I can't imagine that being a massive leak. This is baffling but I know you will solve it soon.
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: petertha on January 30, 2016, 05:49:20 PM
The only other thing I can pass on from my vacuum testing leak experiments (with the cage completely outside the head & the exact same valve) is that gun chamfering tool takes a bit of practice. At least it did for me.

- It requires feather touch, only the least amount of pressure, basically the weight of the cutter.

- For sure the center guide pin is required & same nice close slide fit in the valve stem segment

- If  tried to rotate/chamfer the cutter through too much of a circle like trying to make a complete 360-deg+ cut, I started to lose control. I found it better to make shorter arcs, maybe like 1/2 or 3/4 turn, taper off, back off, reposition, very soft touch, repeat. It took very little before a .015" seat was formed. If I tried to make a big chamfer from one I already knew sealed, things went south. I might have this all balled up so if anyone else has technique tips I'm all ears

- if you arrive at a stage where the seat is starting to develop any hint of micro grooves radially pointing inward to the cage center, that's a real bad omen. I think its related to pushing down on the cutter initially. Once this profile has begun even to a small degree, the cutter seems to not want to level off the hilltops so to speak, it tends to follow up & down & actually magnify the undulating profile. This makes a 'super leaker' & the only remedy I found is to recut the seat in the lathe & start over if that's an option.

Sounds like you did things by the book. The fact that you have seal on other valves points to either a slight variation in technique or as mentioned, maybe some particles got balled up on the seat from running. Anybody have some recs as to an inexpensive but highly magnification type way to look at a 0.015" wide seat? I have one of those cheapo eye loupes. Even felt-penning the valve & seat to look for rub-off wasn't real clear where leaks were but it did highlight micro radial grooves so the machining wasn't actually as smooth as I thought.
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: petertha on January 30, 2016, 06:00:18 PM
This is what I'm wondering about your oil test. Are you able to distinguish bypass (leak) oil through the valve/cage seat (red) vs. the cage/hole annulus (blue)?
** oops you already addressed that **
Can you remove the valve, clean, seal plug valve face with plasticene plug or something & isolate the annulus test that way?
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Roger B on January 30, 2016, 06:49:18 PM
I have never used cages, but it does seem that your problem may be due to the cage leaking. Can you ream the hole larger and fit an oversize cage?

I have attached the valve and port from my vertical engine. It's a bit smaller, but the valve guide is nearly 5 times the stem diameter whereas yours is around twice the diameter.
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on January 31, 2016, 01:50:22 AM
I finished the two new cages, making them a couple of thousandths smaller to give me more clearance.  This time, instead of Loctite 620, I used JB Weld.  Seems it has a better tolerance for high temperatures and I figured it would provide a better seal.

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on January 31, 2016, 07:02:47 PM
Success!  Got the engine back together, got good compression on both cylinders, and have got it firing on both cylinders.  Now I've got some work to do on carburetion and other tuning, but I think I'm on the road to getting a good runner.  I'll post a video when I get it where I want it.

Thanks to everyone for you comments, suggestions and support.  I was close to giving up on it!  Not really, this is probably the last IC engine I'll build, at least for a while, so I was determined to get it running.  Can't stand having an engine on the shelf that won't run!    :insane:

Chuck

Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 31, 2016, 07:04:48 PM
 :pinkelephant: :pinkelephant:
There was no doubt.
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 31, 2016, 07:15:43 PM
This is great news Chuck. Was never any doubt you would sort it out. Now we can look forward to the video and happy dance!! Persistence pays off though also bolstered by your experience as well!

Bill
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Don1966 on January 31, 2016, 07:45:33 PM
Great news Chuck and I had no doubt you would prevail. Waiting for the video bud........ :pinkelephant:

Don
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 31, 2016, 09:21:35 PM
I have my fingers crossed for you chuck. I hope the J.B. weld holds up good to the cylinder head heat.---Brian
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: NickG on February 01, 2016, 05:50:57 PM
Sounds promising chuck, know what you mean about engines that don't run - I only have 1 a tiny Ltd Stirling that was a last minute xmas gift idea to make it for my dad so he has it!! Don't think I'd ever have got it to run as the design was floored, plan to do a version 2 though. You think it was a leak between cage and head then?
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on February 01, 2016, 06:16:55 PM
Sounds promising chuck, know what you mean about engines that don't run - I only have 1 a tiny Ltd Stirling that was a last minute xmas gift idea to make it for my dad so he has it!! Don't think I'd ever have got it to run as the design was floored, plan to do a version 2 though. You think it was a leak between cage and head then?

Yes, at this point I'm pretty sure it was the cage leaking.  The offending cage showed no sign of Loctite residue between the side passage and the face of the head.  Also, the new assembly sealed after shaping the seat and a brief lapping using pretty much the same process as before.

Still got a few bugs to work out.  The engine is now firing on both cylinders and it runs scary fast, even with the throttle fully closed.  I must have an air leak around the carburetor somewhere.  And I now have to install the generator to get it to run evenly at a slow speed.

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on March 13, 2016, 10:32:17 PM
Chuck--what's happening with this build? I'm still waiting for the video of the engine running on two cylinders.---Brian
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on March 13, 2016, 11:51:10 PM
Chuck--what's happening with this build? I'm still waiting for the video of the engine running on two cylinders.---Brian

Hi Brian, I haven't abandoned the engine, just shelved it for a while.  I've been dabbling in other areas for the past couple of months.  Thanks for your interest.

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on April 05, 2016, 07:51:13 PM
So, here I am, jumping around on projects again.  Seems like I get bored with any one project so I've set the solenoid engine aside for now.  Not really on topic, but this is what I've been working on for the past Month or so...

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20160405_13_32_28_Pro_zpsrqhqnr3l.jpg)

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20160405_13_32_20_Pro_zpswxm3bw2q.jpg)

It's a 3d Printer I started on well over a year ago and am now nearing completion on it.  Just have to add the print bed and the electronics.

But, to the topic at hand, I've pulled the horizontal twin off the shelf and am determined to get it running to my satisfaction.  The original intake manifold was leaking air around the base so I made a new one that seems to have fixed that problem.  I've also shaved 1/8" off the base of the cylinder block to raise the compression ratio from around 4.25:1 to about 6:1.  And finally, I'm making two new pistons.  The originals were kind of a sloppy fit and the o-rings just couldn't quite take up the slack, so I'm hoping to improve the compression quite a bit.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20160405_13_29_08_Pro_zpsroyxe5on.jpg)

So stay tuned and I'll try to take this thing to completion before I jump back to something else!   :-[

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: NickG on April 05, 2016, 08:25:41 PM
Sounds like that should do the trick Chuck, will be interesting to see the results from your 3D printer. We are trying to convince the powers that be at work that one would be really useful to properly visualise concepts by printing scale models of things we design! They aren't buying it though ha!
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on April 07, 2016, 03:18:58 AM
Thanks, Nick.  I got the engine back together now and I've learned a few things.  First, good, reliable compression makes a world of difference.  I now have wrist-breaking compression and it starts and runs way better.  I bumped the compression ratio up to something over 6:1.  The new pistons are very close fitting but do slide freely in the cylinder.  Here's a short video of the results so far.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_W9aBWE4REg

The other thing I learned is fitting the o-ring.  I'm using .0625 thick o-rings and I made the groove depth about .004" less than the thickness of the o-ring.  This compresses the o-ring somewhat against the cylinder wall.  I also made the width of the groove about .006" wider than the o-ring thickness.  This gives the o-ring plenty of lateral room to expand due to the compression against the cylinder wall.  It also allows a small amount of lateral movement which seems to help it seal.  At any rate. the compression is rock solid.

I still need to fiddle with the carburetion as it's way too sensitive at the moment.  After I get the carburetion sorted, I'll get the generator and light mounted to put a load on the motor.  I'm also probably going to need a cooling fan as the engine get's hot pretty quickly...

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 07, 2016, 12:56:54 PM
Fantastic Chuck, it is most definitely a runner and a good one at that. I was wondering as I watched the video as to the heat build up with both cylinders firing, then saw your comment as to the need for adding some kind of cooling. In any event, congratulations on getting it going!!

Bill
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: gbritnell on April 07, 2016, 12:59:44 PM
Hi Chuck,
It's great when you at least get to that point, it gives you something to work with. It's really frustrating when you're trying to start one and you don't know which one of the three, spark, fuel or compression is the problem. You are definitely correct about the compression making a world of difference.
gbritnell
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on April 07, 2016, 01:43:12 PM
Chuck--Great to see it firing on both cylinders and running so well.---Brian
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: NickG on April 07, 2016, 05:45:25 PM
Runs superbly. I heard once that a groove for an o ring should be wider than the ring anyway to allow it to roll slightly to either side on each stroke.

Sent from my E380 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on April 07, 2016, 06:29:00 PM
Thanks, Nick, I agree... somewhere in my past I've read that the groove needs to be wider than the o-ring to allow compression and slight movement to improve the seal.

Thanks, Brian, still got some work to do on the carburetion.  The engine is just to sensitive at low idle.

Thanks, George, I've always kind of known that good compression was critical, but have been in denial about how good my compression actually was.  It's not always apparent when the compression is less than stellar, but it is blatantly obvious when it's really good.

So, I think the tuning still requires some carburetor work.  Today I'm going to experiment with rotating the the venturi tube to see how pointing the fuel aperture more toward or away from the intake affects things.

I'm also wondering what affect a small groove in the venturi tube would have, either across the fuel aperture like this...

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/CarbSlot1_zpsfr7s2hux.jpg)

which would seem to make the mixture richer as the throttle was closed, or above the fuel aperture like this...

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/CarbSlot2_zps5ltqhqxy.jpg)

which should make the mixture leaner as the throttle was closed.  I'm leaning toward the latter since everything I've read says you need to lean down the mixture as the throtte is closed.  Any thoughts?

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on April 07, 2016, 06:52:48 PM
Chuck, she sounds great  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:. While you are playing with the carb think about some type of exhaust that would accentuate it's already great sound.  Maybe something like the old gutted tractor mufflers  :shrug:.

Cletus
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Don1966 on April 07, 2016, 07:00:03 PM
Chuck you the man buddy, that engine sounds and runs a treat. Great work as usual and very educational as well. From an old coonass neighbor of yours, your the tops......... :praise2:

Don
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Roger B on April 07, 2016, 07:21:49 PM
That sounds good  :praise2:  :praise2: I will be following your carb developments with interest  :wine1: What electrical load are you planning to put on the engine?
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: gldavison on April 07, 2016, 11:31:27 PM
Sounds like a 2 cylinder John Deere. Love it.   
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on April 07, 2016, 11:39:00 PM
Thanks, Cletus.  I'll definitely want to fiddle with the exhaust to get some good sound and something that looks reasonably authentic.

Thanks, Don, I do love Cajun music from down your way.   Some years ago, when I was still a working stiff, I used to travel on business to New Orleans pretty regularly.  Don't remember much of it though since I spent a fair amount of time (and money) imbibing the local spirits!

Thanks, Roger.  The DC generator will put out 50 - 90 volts depending on RPM.  I will power a 60 watt incandescent bulb with it since that combination worked well for me on one of my other engines...

Thanks, GL.  The John Deere sound is exactly what I was aiming for!

Fiddling with the carburetor today yielded varying results.  Turning the venturi tube to change the orientation of the fuel aperture definitely affected RPM, but I think 90 degrees to the venturi is the best position.  I now think my fuel tank arrangement isn't working well.  The engine will run like heck for 15 or 20 seconds then just dies.  When I disconnect the fuel line from the carburetor, there is no fuel in the line, so I either have an air leak or the vertical distance from the top of the fuel level to the carburetor is too great.  I think moving the fuel line outlet to the bottom of the tank and raising the tank level would improve things.

I figured as long as I had some momentum, I might as well get started on the generator.  Here's a picture of the DC motor I'm using and the block of aluminum from which I'll fashion the case.  The motor is 2" diameter by about 3" long, not counting the shaft. 

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20160407_15_56_47_Pro_zpsdqamqwl7.jpg)

The first operation was to bore a 2" hole though the block to accept the motor...

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20160407_17_11_49_Pro_zpsinjaok5k.jpg)

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/WP_20160407_17_12_01_Pro_zpsvtzo6roj.jpg)

Tomorrow I start shaping the outside of the case.

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: kuhncw on April 08, 2016, 12:44:14 AM
Chuck, nice job on the twin cylinder.  As Gary said, it's got the good old John Deere exhaust note.

I'm  looking forward to hearing the engine with generator load.

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on April 09, 2016, 12:08:40 AM
Well, this is interesting.  Today I modified the fuel tank, making it shorter and changing the fuel outlet to the bottom of the tank.  Engine runs much more consistently and for as long as I keep the ignition on.  As a matter of fact, it keeps right on running even after I turn the ignition off!   :facepalm:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxbXjj3-q0w

It had dieseled for 30 seconds or more before I pulled out my camera and started filming.  I finally stopped it with my hand at the end of the video.  Never had a model engine diesel on me before.

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on April 09, 2016, 01:13:31 AM
Interesting stuff Chuck!! I've never seen one do that either. Now you've got one that won't stop running and I've got one that won't start.--Strange days indeed!!!
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: NickG on April 09, 2016, 07:55:02 AM
Combination of increasing compression ratio and it getting hot? Still, thought 6:1 would be way too low to cause pre-ignition! Is there a sharp edge somewhere in the combustion chamber that is a hot spot?

Sent from my E380 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on April 11, 2016, 04:57:28 AM
Haven't started the engine since it was dieseling a couple of days ago.  I did continue work on the generator.  Here are a couple of pictures ready for it to be installed.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/20160410_2239161_zpsagv6guyc.jpg)

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z195/cffellows/20160410_2239071_zpsyjpnyl8r.jpg)

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 11, 2016, 12:56:21 PM
Very interesting Chuck, I have never seen one diesel like that before either. Will be interesting to see what you find as the cause of that...man it was running good too!!!

Bill
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: cfellows on April 13, 2016, 10:35:37 PM
Not sure what was the causing the dieseling.  I think it's just getting too hot and probably needs a cooling fan.  Here is another video with the generator and light hooked up.  Got it running pretty good right now although I'd like to slow down the idle some.  Unfortunately, it needs a heavier load and the 110 volt, 60 watt generator just isn't enough.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOfVX1zoMNw

Think I'm done with it for now.  Gotta get back to work on some of my other unfinished projects...

Chuck
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: crueby on April 13, 2016, 10:44:23 PM
Very nice!!

Always fun to watch your builds progress, I learn a lot (just went back to one of your tips on taper locks for flywheels yesterday, added that to my pile-o-learnings).   :popcorn:
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Don1966 on April 13, 2016, 10:53:12 PM
She's a great runner Chuck and alway and inspiration to follow your threads......  :praise2:


 8)
Don
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on April 13, 2016, 10:59:08 PM
Good stuff, Chuck. Now if the lights go out, neither of us will be left in the dark!!!---Brian
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 13, 2016, 11:37:30 PM
Excellent Chuck. Congratulations.

110V 60 Watt is impressive to me.
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Art K on April 14, 2016, 01:06:23 AM
Chuck,
Glad to see that you have your engine sorted out and running. I've been away from the computer for a few days and missed some stuff, Congrats. I recall that Dale Detrich often uses belt driven fans on his engines . A guy at the Badger steam & gas show has a generator and uses a computer fan for cooling. Just a thought.
(http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r559/Art-K/Badger%20Steam%20and%20Gas%20Show%202015/DSCN5173_1.jpg)
Here' the photo he also has a bit more cylinder separation than you.
Art
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on April 14, 2016, 01:38:07 AM
Nice running engine Chuck!


Dave
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Zephyrin on April 14, 2016, 10:32:57 PM
A good runner, this twin cylinder, and powerful  too, he certainly could drive a air fan also !
Dieseling occurs generaly when a part inside cylinder gets and stays red hot, the  sparkplug or carbon deposit (if your engine is running rich).
You can also use a less volatile fuel, with higher contain in C8 and C9 to fix dieseling.
I like the way your engines are built, the steel base and main frame, your personal touch definitively.
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: Roger B on April 15, 2016, 09:47:26 AM
Very nice  :praise2:  :praise2: 

Based on my horizontal engine yours should be good for a couple of hundred watts. I ended up gearing my generator up 1-4 to get enough load. Did you make any voltage or current measurements while the engine was running?
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: gbritnell on April 15, 2016, 01:05:23 PM
Great job Chuck. I like you still can't figure out the dieseling part. I can't imagine it got that hot.
gbritnell
Title: Re: IC 2 Cylinder Horizontal Engine
Post by: NickG on April 15, 2016, 01:27:30 PM
I think as zeph said, some feature (sharp edge / corner) or something in the combustion chamber could be getting hotter than everything else and acting like a hot bulb! I thought it was usually a lean mixture that caused things to overheat though.

Sent from my E380 using Tapatalk

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