Model Engine Maker

Help! => Specific Engine Help => Topic started by: Neil-Lickfold on January 21, 2019, 10:14:06 PM

Title: Small capacity diesel engines
Post by: Neil-Lickfold on January 21, 2019, 10:14:06 PM
Has anyone made a small capacity diesel,  so less than 0.5 cc that has started and run reliably with a good performance? Just curious , as I don't want to put time into making something and be disappointed with its performance. Any info will be appreciated.
Title: Re: Small capacity diesel engines
Post by: rklopp on January 22, 2019, 05:38:32 AM
Do you mean a true Diesel with fuel injection, or simply a compression-ignition engine like used in UK model airplanes? If the latter, I built three each Gordon Nano 0.1 cc engines and got all three to run. Define "reliably with a good performance."  ;D I was happy to get them to run at all. They were an extreme challenge to build. I also built a 0.24 cc "Clanford Clan." That one runs reliably and performs well IMHO. It can be hard to get running forward, as it just as often will start backwards despite flicking it forward, or will start to oscillate across BDC instead of turning in one direction. The oscillation happens with excess compression and insufficient flip speed when starting.

If you are talking about a 0.5-cc fuel-injected Diesel, my hat is off to anyone who could pull that off.
Title: Re: Small capacity diesel engines
Post by: Roger B on January 22, 2019, 10:12:42 AM
I am aware of fuel injected diesels around 5cc and think that I could achieve that. My 20cc engine has an injection quantity of around 0.5 mm3 reducing that to 0.025 mm3 would be a challenge  :thinking: A 1mm plunger with 0.02mm stroke  ::)
Title: Re: Small capacity diesel engines
Post by: Neil-Lickfold on January 22, 2019, 12:47:26 PM
Im looking for just something compression ignition. No chance Im taking on an injected timed model engine. Wanting one for a small free flight model. I did not want a mills or a mills copy. But if there was a plan for something around the 0.5cc range to 0.8cc range . I guess I could go the mini oliver route. I did not want to go with anything that is current like PAW for instance. Also wanted it to be cast iron piston based instead of ABC or AAC etc.
Neil
Title: Re: Small capacity diesel engines
Post by: steamer on January 22, 2019, 12:48:40 PM
Didn't Tug just do one that size?

Dave
Title: Re: Small capacity diesel engines
Post by: Jasonb on January 22, 2019, 12:53:55 PM
Ramon's are usually 5cc not 0.5cc
Title: Re: Small capacity diesel engines
Post by: Admiral_dk on January 22, 2019, 12:58:30 PM
This is a succesful design but I remembered the part about it having drawings in the public domain wrong  :-[

http://sceptreflight.net/Model%20Engine%20Tests/Pfeffer%200.6%20RC.html (http://sceptreflight.net/Model%20Engine%20Tests/Pfeffer%200.6%20RC.html)

I'm sure there are others ….

Best wishes

Per
Title: Re: Small capacity diesel engines
Post by: Jasonb on January 22, 2019, 01:04:04 PM
The Motor Boys Plan book has the ED Baby in it at 0.47cc if you don't mind carving your own crankcase from solid. That is steel liner with CI piston

You may also want to contact Jo to see if Eric has suitable castings for a very small engine, I'm sure he has several options.
Title: Re: Small capacity diesel engines
Post by: Jo on January 22, 2019, 01:40:25 PM
0.5cc Compression Ignition Engines are very common.

This is a design my friend John Carter did, I have a casting to make one  :)

Jo
Title: Re: Small capacity diesel engines
Post by: Ramon Wilson on January 22, 2019, 01:43:07 PM
Yes that's right Jason ten times bigger  ;D - I've rebored down to .5cc but not made one Dave

Neil - I have a copy of the plans book mentioned (CD) though I have a feeling it won't allow direct copying.
There is a very nice 1cc diesel - the Weaver/Ransom - that could be slightly reduced and it's easily made from bar stock too. I believe many have been successfully made and are good runners -ideal for free flight. There's also the Deezil 1 (2?)cc side port that you could do the same to.

Not sure but there may be plans on Ron Chernich's Model Engine News site that is still extant

I also think I have  drawings for a .8cc from Model Engineer on file somewhere

I would imagine you can find a copy of the Motor Boys Book 'down there' but if not let me know and I'll see what I can do to help

Tug
Title: Re: Small capacity diesel engines
Post by: Ramon Wilson on January 22, 2019, 02:02:40 PM
Yep just had a check Neil  :ThumbsUp:

There was a series of articles in Model Engineer by a Richard Gordon on his 'Alpha' .5cc side port diesel.

Unfortunately there's no dates on the pages so don't know when it was featured - in the nineties or a little later perhaps - maybe Jason can help here.

It's a nice little engine with full coverage of the build though you shouldn't need that 'I'd a thought'

Whatever, I have hard copies which I can pass on should you want.

Regards - Tug


Edit - Didn't Chris Boll do a .8cc? the 'Boll-Aero' - or was that 1.8cc
Title: Re: Small capacity diesel engines
Post by: Jo on January 22, 2019, 02:15:20 PM
Alpha was one of those centre page pull outs in ME Mag number 4027

Jo
Title: Re: Small capacity diesel engines
Post by: Ramon Wilson on January 22, 2019, 04:12:12 PM
Thanks Jo  :ThumbsUp:- any idea what year that was?

Tug
Title: Re: Small capacity diesel engines
Post by: Jasonb on January 22, 2019, 04:25:50 PM
Motor Boys Plan books are now available online

I'd only looked at one book but this first link has quite a few in the size range that may suit you Nick

https://rclibrary.co.uk/title_details.asp?ID=2139

https://rclibrary.co.uk/title_details.asp?ID=2122

I'll look into the ME one but may be before the digital archive started and not one I have a paper version of.
Title: Re: Small capacity diesel engines
Post by: Jo on January 22, 2019, 04:30:05 PM
Thanks Jo  :ThumbsUp:- any idea what year that was?

Tug

Late 1996, the same mag that had Roy Darlington's "Noddy" Marble Hot air Engine  8)

Jo
Title: Re: Small capacity diesel engines
Post by: Ramon Wilson on January 22, 2019, 04:48:15 PM
Thanks Jo and Jason  :ThumbsUp: I wasn't aware they are now available to all - good all round eh.

Neil - the 'Weaver' is in the second of Jason's links. Many of these engines are side ports so don't know if they will be what you are after as they all tend to be somewhat 'Mills-ish'

Tug
Title: Re: Small capacity diesel engines
Post by: Jo on January 22, 2019, 06:18:45 PM
Ron did a page on the Alpha: http://modelenginenews.org/design/design7.html

And his 0.1cc Compression Ignition engine Nano: http://modelenginenews.org/nano/index.html

Jo
Title: Re: Small capacity diesel engines
Post by: Neil-Lickfold on January 22, 2019, 08:57:00 PM
Thanks for the links and all the replies.
Not sure what exactly I'll get around to making.
But when I do, will take pics etc and record it.
Neil
Title: Re: Small capacity diesel engines
Post by: Neil-Lickfold on January 25, 2019, 09:00:12 AM
So my thoughts are to make 9.5mm bore engine with a 10.5mm stroke. It will be a steel liner, iron piston.  So far I am thinking of making it a simple with drilled holes schnurle type transfer system, with a side exhaust.  As I will throw the model with my right hand, it will have a Rh side exhuast. I am thinking of the carb being like  amills type, but with the induction under neath the exhaust port, so piston ported.
Initial timing numbers are the transfer around 120 deg and the Exhaust around 130 deg duration. Induction will be in the 110 to 120 total induction range, but thinking closer to the 110 at this stage. All the transfer passage volume will be in the liner wall, a bit like the OS12 engine does. The liner will have the cooling fins cut in like Cox engine. But will have a screw over Ali head for the comp screw. The outer Ali part will be 4032 . Not sure of the case material yet. May make it as an experiment in loss wax casting and get it cast in LM13. Been thinking of making the liner from A2 tool steel. Rod will be 2024, wristpin will be a needle roller and  a press fit to the piston.  Crank I am looking at either 4340 or H13, and nitrided for the crank pin hardness, but masking the threaded area. It will be a bronze bushed case. 
I wont be starting any making on this project untill, sept / October or so.
If there is any real stand out issue with materials I have chosen, it will be appreciated to have suggestions for better materials.
Neil
Title: Re: Small capacity diesel engines
Post by: Ramon Wilson on January 25, 2019, 10:12:41 AM
Sounds good Neil  :ThumbsUp: - don't think you'll be wearing that out in a hurry  :D

Tug
Title: Re: Small capacity diesel engines
Post by: ChuckKey on January 26, 2019, 12:46:05 AM
In reply to the OP, a look at Model Engine News confirmed the Davies-Charlton DC 'Dart' at 0.5cc (I had one as a kid) and an interesting piece on the DC 'Bambi', probably the smallest production diesel, at 0.15cc. That is 7/32" bore x 1/4" stroke!
Title: Re: Small capacity diesel engines
Post by: Ramon Wilson on January 26, 2019, 09:17:29 PM
Hi 'Chuck',

The DC Bambi was indeed a tiny engine and as you rightly say was possibly the smallest production diesel engine made. Production methods on piston and liners must have been very tight and I believe they could be difficult to start or even run. Quite expensive relative to other engines of the period they never the less had their place but mainly I would say more as a novelty than a really practical power plant.

Last year I re-bored and renovated an old ED Comp Special for a friend. Much to my delight he presented me with one as a thank you.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/v40TkBlaEeTnoXVekTxTZediAZzyFvgkDPJiD-dGMFhmhQxfHdhyyeSGAisXoSR3JwQMlffnq-AkMYBnMn_Y6itRWTXkYA4f0Vrm3q8SiKpm04NgtgPynw0rey63XXtPHSpBvvqIcoBHtojR8bS7lKS2bGfKjnckk5kwHPiwyz7ZmwCMo7lZbv7F58PRxxzO-Y54IiIvsr3q7ISN6j28yNdMfu5aVtSuAiHBJVhCscO6TpSHmElbQI6EiaHd4JpFCCb0KKwFJuEWM3YufE4qct529Z8uLSrQ16xtDft0nV7_fEQJuLAC9TSkqCPHTLNnH8aWLbAScEjlJSaLrFoVGTRedODDHaU5BvKBYUNFI2TdoHesDE_6Yn3qggeA0njA15AXyeLhsVrYaBntIEjXODClnUk6u0EwY9BxCyqRGofp__eOMsob4369dctpVRcn1F-l9zVSLxsr6eRFI3K7-ocq07y4gEY0qxoS7LeZuOyTRAnTucAEIsvPDyHkvvURJMdXJuBDx6MGzp-NduCeU3qUSyNz-fYb4w1ZE62D4N9jYc73v9FBK1XZBJpKb0G0nMu-fmMNgiR7hNFiZOPWGDBaKkYMTphoW_2o5YCbytIwb8kAJOH3LBOV8ChnHrgr9DZkhh-laKNDUlXq-nYFQ9y_ig=w1218-h913-no)

I have not run it, it sits on display in my small aeromodelling 'nostalgia cabinet' but I know he did  and even built a very small control line model for it - on thread lines it flew but only just ;)

Sitting in the hand it doesn't seem that small but here it is beside a 2.5cc Oliver Tiger ...
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Tiqk6VqZQZKmHSAsdE5gLrt0MQJoqmq3Iazrw-Is3bZmA93hPbkvevlOqGgwo-BahQfaD06XAkJD8FG8gsN_6ZFTIrwzm895GQPsIDU9Lo5LEo_R6I34yfU9uqWfzwpTCsdKSeYvq30MhTYQwByLNj4XW5AHbyGmlg0LRC4p1MeFrsQwgBy5sNVuenQR2XsMdeLS73mWA3FExQFcB_6Aoo0DmMAYf0V0604Q7a79KRQr__AVC7bCGzS82tuizwo9tzqH5IzQLNXkUQGL1Nv9dnL0lxOhSh93zJYcus-zxgJm9eecA2Ny2ZAb8GSZs0PeeJcNkyLTR8Lih9VaIs1yRbK9sDzaEUoFQAxur9zCm9GGnug0MGTz-w59diS4UVzj_sGKDw6hDWvPmgLUrcgXhhTbNefqC6oomh7dVcz8Dt-caeU4BQT2sx7bzJ0FpZ8yM29bBCjuuQ3VNKT5LzHVj1TC2OqbqbJ9W4cetWdQuHoSNAWXd1j4sCOcGL2FIeK2uBb0R6v-KphEr-MIwmBq5UtQ5sJk-JTw_W2LQrt0ZlTD3kd7j5o73ywabmmEXL7mq2Ud-zFiv0Wo-aZ1jWvy2IrOl7E8Tf1ycCOBp22NIwDSest8_TUpUGcnWcUUj-1mYMVgsHL4yZRj3Yf1xhRQLpNLvg=w1218-h913-no)

.. and to put in perspective for me, beside the 5cc version of the SuperTigre G31 1cc engine. That said I think it now makes the Tigre look more like a 10cc or even larger ::)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/xAG4ABzGXpEk99zck5DhT5bPUOPUEe89jUNDuwG4bffT1D4gdsjbioMsR4aOZiBbddiEHgY3MvLcY4pEjdWkvPWw0jG2W5m7Ga2nqs7R5iL7_Zfab3mmgGwhY0uWee70iMYAB0J7xAe1ebo35W3BjJci4isVyAFxXfFIJPvin9HLcu3UdtSyU90mnX89AOC4qi3wGkmzrPKEDYZZZ1oO8U7d8oK6qFIlLxUZ5xKqq7FW83oR5OKx444VCTqSaCSVj13IyyE7sfUcqnj3R-wPsDie-dXdKpW-R6LxjFZeiRAWLUTo07404Ux5N0SLZhs1ToMv-ic0XoKcjYVGq4aSaZejzfQequ27n5XQIKRn9MeYV1fLul1x99QKNiSHQHPusanh28G4mAiU5xhXmZ6fcI9NTvaMU_DIh3prnxkR3F7Du-JPqThrXGWJJTsvLLlpTtEPp7CNe1ufYuet0e77lTSbVs507Dx-7dVXbA_cUgevHbPrWoz-3BMf6SWJJH3JLr8vqpEFODurZTz1G8A4mjXm2RdlufHfs278qxbMYGGLXluqnqPPUb31WhS0dgjvk5SdJXqgTUuBiZiGEHfa2tHH4pP-JE1jhLAP_R3W4IXIvj9swlzWC2scX9VMLqC3TJx8_2iB4GTihNGs0hAr3ln7Cw=w1218-h913-no)

Hope this helps add a little inspiration Neil

As you know the Oliver Tiger is on the cards for the next 5cc version - I'm intending to start next week end all being well.

Regards - Tug
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