Model Engine Maker

General Category => Chatterbox => Topic started by: steamer on August 09, 2018, 01:53:01 AM

Title: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: steamer on August 09, 2018, 01:53:01 AM
OK

Besides being a Principal Engineer, I'm the companies machinist...so I walk into the shop at work, and walk right in on our Co-op working on a test part made of plastic.    He's cutting circles out of a piece part for testing.   He's cutting the circles with a Leather punch....OK......He's cutting them on top of my brand new Starrett Surface plate..... :zap: :killcomputer: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :slap:


OK.....He's a bright kid, no doubt about it...but he's clearly ignorant...and I have to over come my basic urge to choke the kid out, and turn it into a opportunity to teach.   


Now this is a REAL situation, and I've dealt with it...and I think it was a very positive way to do it...but I'm interested in your take....what SHOULD I have done?

Go!

Dave
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: b.lindsey on August 09, 2018, 02:16:02 AM
Make him research and write a paper on the accuracy, use, and care of surface plates. They hate to write!!! I had a kid once that needed a cut off tool for the lathe and not finding one took a parallel and ground it to suit.  :lolb:

You can't make this stuff up.

Bill
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: Johnmcc69 on August 09, 2018, 02:22:11 AM
Not real clear about what you did do to handle this.
But...
 If you don't point it out, he'll do it again.
 I had a lot of those moments in my early days, but I have nothing but respect for those who told me NOT to do it "that way".  :hammerbash:

 John
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: steamer on August 09, 2018, 02:22:30 AM
No you can't make this up.....I really wish I could!   his "Supervisor" told not to worry, the divit wasn't too big.... :cussing: :Mad: :slap:

He got the same response from me....

Keep it coming...
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: steamer on August 09, 2018, 02:23:54 AM
Not real clear about what you did do to handle this.
But...
 If you don't point it out, he'll do it again.
 I had a lot of those moments in my early days, but I have nothing but respect for those who told me NOT to do it "that way".  :hammerbash:

 John

I can assure you ….he's been educated! and it won't happen again....    I'm just curious how everyone else would do it  is all.

Dave
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: steamer on August 09, 2018, 02:28:51 AM
The reason I ask, is this generation is just ...out there!....bright as hell....and dumb as a rock..all at the same time....and I'm learning how to mentor them in a way that I can keep them listening.


So again...looking for different perspectives....

I'll spill the beans in a bit... I promise

Dave

Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: Johnmcc69 on August 09, 2018, 02:31:14 AM
Not real clear about what you did do to handle this.
But...
 If you don't point it out, he'll do it again.
 I had a lot of those moments in my early days, but I have nothing but respect for those who told me NOT to do it "that way".  :hammerbash:

 John

I can assure you ….he's been educated! and it won't happen again....    I'm just curious how everyone else would do it  is all.

Dave

 Then you did good.
 Bad habits are bad habits until a "gentle reminder"
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: steamer on August 09, 2018, 02:32:07 AM
How would you have done it John?

Dave
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: Johnmcc69 on August 09, 2018, 02:41:35 AM
I would have explained that a surface plate is NOT a work surface.
 ONLY for layout & gauging purposes. I'm sure there are differences on the subject.

 I also cringe when I see a precision vice held in a milling vice.
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: crueby on August 09, 2018, 02:41:54 AM
Verbally, loudly, on camera, rip a few new through holes, post online...
Then hand him the bill for a new plate.


At least 'accidentally' turn on the mic for the PA system?


That would be the modern equivalent of hanging the pirate at the entrance to the harbor...
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: 10KPete on August 09, 2018, 02:42:43 AM
I won't claim to be good with that sort of thing, but one thing I have learned over the years was to get over the anger before educating the apprentice. Sometimes you only have a minute to do it but teaching cannot occur when either party is angry or frightened.

Pete
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: steamer on August 09, 2018, 02:47:13 AM
I won't claim to be good with that sort of thing, but one thing I have learned over the years was to get over the anger before educating the apprentice. Sometimes you only have a minute to do it but teaching cannot occur when either party is angry or frightened.

Pete

Completely agree Pete....I think I had about 15 seconds.....

Approach?


Dave
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: steamer on August 09, 2018, 02:50:34 AM
Verbally, loudly, on camera, rip a few new through holes, post online...
Then hand him the bill for a new plate.


At least 'accidentally' turn on the mic for the PA system?


That would be the modern equivalent of hanging the pirate at the entrance to the harbor...

The problem with that is something my wife keeps telling me.   I have Stupidity of Knowledge!....I think everyone should know this stuff...like it's basic!....but I've learned that is FAR from the truth.   That said, I could have dressed this kid down HARD, and been in my right...but I didn't...because he never would have listened again....the generation, generally speaking, are pretty fragile.
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 09, 2018, 03:14:51 AM
There's what I would have done in the moment and what I would have done if I'd taken a moment to think about it.

My preference is to ask questions and try to make them think rather than telling them what to think.

Example:

"That's a surface plate. It's used for measuring, etc. It requires a perfectly flat surface. You've ruined it"

versus

"Do you know what that is? Do you know what it's used for? Do you know how to take care of it?"

I'm okay if they say "I don't know. What?". That is, if they are interested in learning.

If I get a "Whatever" answer...they are toast.
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: Johnmcc69 on August 09, 2018, 03:20:57 AM
I guess it's time to learn how to "scrape"...
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: AOG on August 09, 2018, 03:44:58 AM
I generally take Z’s approach but in an extremely sarcastic tone of voice to let them know they’ve screwed up. I also take the opertunity to explain the problem in real world terms. If they don’t see the real world application they tend to think your just being a hard donkey. Believe it or not in my experience, this new generation has a respect for people who “keep it real” ie “do” instead of “talk about”.  Use that to your advantage.

My two cents

Tony
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 09, 2018, 04:00:57 AM
Believe it or not in my experience, this new generation has a respect for people who “keep it real” ie “do” instead of “talk about”.  Use that to your advantage.

 :ThumbsUp:

I do believe the newer generations are getting undeserved hard knocks. Much of the problem is simply us wanting them to be like us but there's no reason to think that another way, if not better, is just different.

Having said that...my minimum requirements for getting along with anyone is respect and empathy.
And there's actually more of that than we might think.
Too often, I let the action of one be an example.
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: paul gough on August 09, 2018, 05:27:54 AM
Abuse and punishment engender resentment; guidance and enlightenment engender respect. Obviously the child showed initiative in finding a method to produce the required hole(s). I cannot help wondering why a precision instrument like a surface plate did not have a fitted  wooden cover, or positioned in a more secure purpose based area. If there is time, the student might be shown how to scrape, as Johnmcc69 mentioned, though not necessarily to do the whole repair, as they would not be competent and would be diverted from other issues perhaps more engaging. I hope you don't find a micrometer being used as a clamp! Paul Gough 
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: Jo on August 09, 2018, 06:20:14 AM
Does he own a nice car? Maybe you should have told him to bring his cutter with him out to his car put it on the bonnet of his car and show you again what he was doing..... Let him explain why it was not a good idea to do it on his vehicle  ::)

Then follow it up with a week of responsibility for caring for your surface plate until it was spot on again  ;)

Jo

P.S. My nephew tried using one of my Micrometre's as a clamp :-X Thankfully he didn't have enough strength to really damage it but I had to show him and repeat the instructions 5 times before he used it the right way.  :disappointed:
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: steamer on August 09, 2018, 11:27:50 AM
All good answers!    I did brief think of punching holes in his car hood....but I didn't....Yes there should be a fitted cover on the surface plate.    I don't think that would have stopped him though

I explained what the "Pink Rock" was and why what he was doing probably just disposed of $1000.   I told him I was upset, but I can't get mad at you because your ignorant.   You don't know...but you're about to find out!    I had him answer these questions:


Pennence:

Who was  Joseph Whitworth?
 
Who was Henry Maudsley?
 
What is the Whitworth 3 plate method?
 
Please Read  “The evolution of Precision Tools”  by Eric Weinhoffer   it’s a short read…
 
A 1 page response to the above will be sufficient
 
Have a good weekend
 
Dave


He did that, I'll share it when I have it to hand....and he appologized.   He also had his uhmm  Supervisor read his work....I told him     Good!..

It worked, I got through to him..and he's listening


Paul....I'll make a cover for it.

Dave


Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: steamer on August 09, 2018, 11:30:12 AM
I guess it's time to learn how to "scrape"...


Oh I wish I had the time to wait for that!....Good answer!
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: b.lindsey on August 09, 2018, 12:33:25 PM
Our approaches were close then...though I admit I also had Jo's idea too as to doing it on his shiny new car hood (bonnet). Well not making him actually do it, but listening to his reasons for not doing so and then relate those back to the surface plate.  Hmmmmm… a pink plate too....pricey but nice!!  Looking forward to reading his "paper."

Bill
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: Lew Hartswick on August 09, 2018, 08:54:37 PM
Wellll!  I could point out that a Surface Plate should have a cover on it when not in use.  And that the introduction to the shop should insure that the "newcomer" is made to understand that the "device" under that cover is a PRECISION instrument.  But won't do it just now. :-)
   ...lew...
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on August 09, 2018, 09:04:25 PM
I’m a wee bit late here, but: I agree Dave, they are intellectually smart and common sense stupid. I get what Zee is saying about us assuming they should know what we know, but, I can’t buy into that argument wholeheartedly. Now, thinking back to my youth and probably most of yours; would we have done something like that or recognized that the pretty pink stone could have possibly meant something and asked somebody( he wasn’t a first or eighth grader) . If my memory serves me correctly, I started a thread that became locked over the lack of common sense and basic education of our youth. And on this ninth day of August, I’ll once again say that, unequivocally, for the most part, it isn’t the kids fault, it’s piss poor parenting. I’ll guarantee you that had William been in that kids position, he would asked somebody if he could use the plate for that purpose, or what should he use: it’s all about their raising. On the other hand; I have a staff that is mostly in their twenties to forties, and they break and destroy stuff on what seems like a daily basis. I have started to post, in their break area, the invoices of the stuff they broke and had to be replaced, the utilities bill, and the workmans comp insurance bill: I then explain that these things are a given, and to insure profits to the point that they can get a raise, these costs must be kept down. So, what happens this morning: one of the older girls puts a $300 tomato slicer on the edge of a table, unsupported, and it fell to it’s demise. I guess it’s just me, but, sometimes I wonder if nobody gives a rat’s donkey about anything anymore. In the way I deal with it: let’s just say that the reason I drinks a wee bit  :lolb:

Eric
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: mklotz on August 09, 2018, 09:11:14 PM
Wellll!  I could point out that a Surface Plate should have a cover on it when not in use.  And that the introduction to the shop should insure that the "newcomer" is made to understand that the "device" under that cover is a PRECISION instrument.  But won't do it just now. :-)
   ...lew...

Well said, lew.

Making the cover with a 45 degree inclined "roof" prevents it from becoming a work surface. and makes the warnings inscribed on the roof more visible.

Granite is often mildly radioactive so a warning along the lines of...

Radiation badges must be worn within 50 feet of this tool.

while not totally accurate, can work well to keep the ignorant at bay.
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on August 09, 2018, 09:21:18 PM
Should there also be a Prop 65 label Marv? And oh yeah Dave, be sure when he turns in his paper, you reward him with some type of achievement award. I’m gonna shut up or this thread will be locked  :old:

Eric
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: Shadow on August 09, 2018, 09:23:44 PM
Agreeing with all the above I may have added that the leather punch is now also ruined and the best backing would be the end grain of a wood block.

I service and repair microscopes. At the states largest hospital was a six headed scope the had the left side removed by me some time ago. Recently the right side was removed and was put somewhere. The scope was moved to a newly remodeled area next to the gross room and the right side was put on the left side with double the connectors and jammed together most likely by some of the resident doctors. There was a complaint that they were having problems seeing on the scope and I investigated. I was not able to rectify the problem. I found out later that it had been dropped on the floor. No one would tell anybody. Replacement parts were about $6K. I suggested that no one not trained be allowed to move microscope equipment. The decree came down from administration attaching my email. There is now only one other that can assemble scopes. After all, they are just a big Lego set aren't they?
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 09, 2018, 10:22:24 PM
I get what Zee is saying about us assuming they should know what we know, but, I can’t buy into that argument wholeheartedly.

??? That's not at all what I said. Obviously the younger ones can't know what the older ones do. There's that whole 'experience' thing.
Anyone thinking they should know what we know would be more than silly.
What I said is that younger generations may be getting undeserved hard knocks.

End of reply.  ;D I don't want the following rant to be taken as directed to anyone in particular (just to everyone in general  ;D ).

I do believe there's a difference in what different generations think is interesting or important. Who are we to say what's important to them?
I do believe there's a difference in what different generations think because of the times they grow/grew up in.
As an example, just my having been a military brat, in Europe, seeing what WWI and WWII did, affected me. Today's generation...not so much. How can I blame them?

Who here didn't have grand-parents or parents that didn't agree with what you were doing?
I could (stupidly) argue that the only common thing between generations is the sound of 'tsk-tsk' from the older to the newer.

Every generation new technology is provided. The older generation may question it. The younger generation may embrace it. And the cycle begins again.

And then there's the thought..."We all forget what we didn't know.".

I suspect most of us, in looking back at our childhood, probably think we were dumb as rocks compared to what we've learned and experienced by now.

I may come across a little sensitive. It bugs me to lump an entire group of people together. I have two daughters...most people would say, because of their age, they are millennials and because of that, are thought of less. Well...I couldn't ask for better kids with a sense of responsibility, empathy, respect, kindness, drive,...etc.

And I know their friends. Same thing.

Remember the days when our generation started growing their hair out? Growing beards? Fighting for whatever freedoms we thought were being suppressed?

We all needed help as we grew up. And if you think you didn't...you've forgotten. All that can be said is you may have needed less.

As I said, this little rant isn't against anyone. I just get tired of people judging an entire group of people based on...whether the few or the many...but not all.
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: kuhncw on August 10, 2018, 03:33:24 AM
Well said, Zee.

I especially liked your comment about different things being important to different generations.

Chuck
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: 10KPete on August 10, 2018, 05:15:39 AM
Well said, very well said Zee.  :ThumbsUp:

Pete
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: steamer on August 10, 2018, 06:27:42 AM
Well.

Yes he had access to the shop.   and unfortunately, his Supervisor...uhmmm   told him to use it.   I recognized that pretty quickly....His "supervisor" let him swing in the wind for it...

Nothing I hate more than being a two faced sack-less wonder.  there's some leadership!.... :hammerbash: :Mad:

Now that said....It's my shop, but I don't have a door on my shop. I do lock up the tools for the lathe and the mill, but leave a set of drills for the drill press.   I can't be there all the time.   I'm the part time Machinist.   I'm the ONLY machinist.   But there's a drill press and a belt sander and people use them.    If someone is in there, and they )(@#* something up, well....I have two choices

A    Dress them down publicly.    You get one strike with me....then this happens
B   Try to teach them if they are ignorant.

Jolly funny signs and clever covers doesn't help with the situation.   If the company has their safety insurance inspection, with one of those signs, there'd be an evacuation and a hazmat team on site.  If you think I'm kidding, you've been out of the work force too long.     The damaged plate is a cheaper option frankly.  I got written up because the commercial band saw didn't have a chip shield on it...yeah I'm serious,   Yeah it has one now...hanging on the wall...so I can put it on when the inspector comes.   It's the most moronic thing I've ever had to do in a shop....But they send people into the shop who know nothing about a machine shop, and their judgment is final....

I was told by my former boss that should be able to teach a couple of the "Engineer's" how to run the CNC mill on my lunch hour over a couple of weeks.   He was offended when I laughed hysterically.  there a reason why he's my former boss..

I'll leave that there.

This kid is different, and for those of you who have read this thread, I've stated that already. 

My complaint with him, doesn't really have anything to do with him or his upbringing.   He's actually pretty earnest.   It's his education....it's clearly sucked thus far.

I had a 20 minute conversation with my CEO, about this kid, this situation, and we agreed.  ( He liked my approach by the way)  Kids today spend too much time with computers, and not enough time fixing their clunker cars, or bicycles, or what have you.   They've lost the common sense aspect of working with your hands.    I had a 20 minute conversation with this kid explaining what a 3/8 bolt was, whether it was course thread or fine thread, why there are different pitches, what is the pitch of the thread and how it's measured, ect  and the kid looked like he just landed on Mars.  He really had NO clue about any of this.  His Engineering assignment?    Get 2 3/8 bolts and nuts and washers, drill two holes in the bench and bolt down the new arbor press.     This was day 2, and after the cad layout, and his request for me to check his work, we ordered the bolts.....he'll be working on the installation phase of the project tomorrow I'm sure.        He's a 3rd year Mechanical Engineering Student, and I know he's not dumb, but man, as an Engineer, he's got a long way to go!    Kids are our future!.....You have to be (*#(*@ me

All that and $40K/year tuition...yes that is what his school charges for an BSME .......talk about being taken for a ride  you just HAVE to be kidding me.    And save me the alameda speech...All the schools around here...BIG name schools are turning them out like this.  His current sidekick is far worse..    "I have these two parts that are called out on this print...how do I get them?"   I say...you mean how do you fill out a purchase req?    "No...how do I find who makes them?"    The print gives the name of the company, address and part number.....Ok....2 days later...still not ordered.    Finally I ordered it.

William and Ava have been educated.   there are wonderful and terrible things in my shop...and ask to go in there before you enter!
And Hey....they say please, thank you, and can I help?....What radicals!!!  Must be something in the water....

Dave


Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: Jo on August 10, 2018, 06:54:18 AM
Which reminds me of something that happened when I was about 20 ( so must have been a couple of years ago  ;) ) the very nice young man who was courting me got me to help him put the carb back on this car... because of the position of the carb it mounted on really long threaded studs (4" + of threads). He slid the carb over the studs and handed me a nut & washer to put on one side while he did the other.....

I put the washer over and spun the nut on using my fingers then stood there waiting to borrow the spanner watching him put the nut on his stud  :facepalm2: From the top flat by flat with the spanner  :disappointed:  I was an ex-apprentice - he was a higher degree qualified over paid engineer.

Jo
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: Stuart on August 10, 2018, 07:52:08 AM
Jo
I have seen that behaviour from a guy next door at the time was doing a degree the book said use a spanner on nuts ( the hex type) now I was about ten at the time 60 plus years ago and knew better

This same guy when on to work on blue streak

As to education for tool use etc it depends on how you are brung up ,my dad was a fitter so tools 🛠 were around and I was shown what they were for eg you use a bell punch on the end grain of wood or lead block .

Now I was a inquiring sod so when dad took the engine out of our car ford 8 (CWA 112 ) it was in the shed so at the age of ten I helped him while he was at work he came home to find it in bits all of it , was he mad at no he just said you took it apart so you will have to help me put it back together ( we go on holidays at the weekend) well it ran and we had the hols

As to the guy in the question did he know what the granite was for to him it was a nice flat hard surface posh bench to me it’s a case of explaining what all the shop tools do and the safe use as first introduction to the shop , but a cover should have been in place

Just a old codgers ramblings

Ever new generation invents everthing and the oldies know nowt ( inc sex ) :old:
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: nj111 on August 10, 2018, 10:04:02 PM
My experience with a young lad who had completed his 4 yr craft apprentiship was equally painful. He asked if he could use my personal lathe (at Home) - it's a Dean Smith & Grace tool room lathe that I've looked after very carefully for 20 years. A while later I hear all this hammering and wander over to find he decided to separate a morse taper adapter by hammering the assembly and tapered drift down onto the top of the tail stock casting repeatedly  and in doing so chipped off great chunks of the original enamel with every impact! Nick
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 10, 2018, 10:54:24 PM
It's a lot of fun to relate stories of 'near Darwin winners'. And we all have stories of ourselves.  ;D

It's also good to hear stories of drive, perseverance, and winning.

Here's a couple...

I used to tutor electronics when I was in school. There was one guy who was really struggling. His being half blind was a challenge but he kept at it. He never said a word of dismay or disappointment. He wasn't getting it. But when I asked him to try standing 2" from the blackboard...so he could see...he got it. It was only his not giving up that kept me wanting to help.

At work (I'm a software engineer - but newly retired), we would often get fresh-outs from college. School teaches (or not) the technical. Work teaches the reality. I came across some pretty smart newbies but they had a big problem that I had to beat out of them. A lot of (new) engineers want the customer to think and understand like the engineer does. Do/want what is logical. They were on the page of "The only problem we have is the customer." Most of them eventually got it. That is, what you think is important in a product is not necessarily what a customer thinks is important.

We had a lot of interns too. I was always impressed with them. They had the technical skills but knew there was more to it and were very thirsty for practical skills.

An earlier post commented on education (or lack thereof).

In my mind, education is the solution to all things. Not financing it or supporting it is criminal.

On a somewhat more scary note...education is the single most powerful weapon any nation can develop.

When I come across a 'dummy', 'ignorant', call them what you will...it's not their fault. It's the fault of those that didn't teach them.

The question then becomes...why weren't they taught? I won't go into that.

Time to go back to machining.  ;D
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: Johnmcc69 on August 11, 2018, 02:00:21 AM
They shut down "shop" classes years ago in the school I graduated from years ago. They shut down the tech school I graduated from the tool & die program.
 I've worked in tool & die my entire career, in capacity as T & D maker & as a designer. My last company I worked for moved mfg to Mexico.

 I live in an area that was very heavy into the tooling industry. The industry left years ago & interest in the funding to train them for that left as well.

 I just don't know anymore.

 But..I did find that working with interns fresh out of college was "interesting" . Especially from large companies who had no shop experience. They figured if they can create it on computer, it can be manufactured.

 I served my time on the shop floor before I was taken on as a designer, the old boss made sure you knew the basics & how to cut metal & think on your feet.

 Maybe it's a regional thing, but IMHO, it's becoming a global thing.

 Disclaimer: this is just my experience so please don't "flame" me..

 John
 
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: john mills on August 11, 2018, 02:40:06 AM
Most of my TIME WORKING HAS BEEN IN MACHINE SHOPS.
I found most of the apprentices good and did good work and looked after the equipment well.The SO CALLED TRADESMEN  FITTER machinist they were the ones how would pick the inspection angle plate to use on the face plate of the lathe to clamp the hook forging for turning 4"the shank wouldn't want the old ones used before for that .one ofThe fitter would walk around the work shop with the precision parallels one in each hand playing jingle balls banging them together no clue as to what he was doing to them.the engeneering manager took the slip gauges had to use the for checking mikes  played building blocks with them on his desk put them in a plastic bag
in his desk draw did't know any thing about how they were meant to be cleaned and what to do to place them back in the box.They had to be sent out to be repaired and recalibrate to be useable again.   now only working
part time as a contractor i see things ,using the new height gauge the welding bench used as the marking out table it slides around well on the welding slag and grinding grit.as a contractor no one is interested in what i might think.as machinist all i can do do is repair so i could do my work the best i can.i could go on with lots more
examples  but in todays workplace ? You can only point out the problem  but try not get upset yourself it won't
gain anything.  When i supervised a prod action line people wanted to lock things up but the factory forman
would say the tools need to be there in position to be used ,if they disappear they need replacing when they have several they won't need any more.would prefer they asked .
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: steamer on August 11, 2018, 11:48:56 AM
"On a somewhat more scary note...education is the single most powerful weapon any nation can develop.

When I come across a 'dummy', 'ignorant', call them what you will...it's not their fault. It's the fault of those that didn't teach them.

The question then becomes...why weren't they taught? I won't go into that.

Time to go back to machining."




That was my point....

 
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: steamer on August 11, 2018, 11:52:27 AM
They shut down "shop" classes years ago in the school I graduated from years ago. They shut down the tech school I graduated from the tool & die program.
 I've worked in tool & die my entire career, in capacity as T & D maker & as a designer. My last company I worked for moved mfg to Mexico.

 I live in an area that was very heavy into the tooling industry. The industry left years ago & interest in the funding to train them for that left as well.

 I just don't know anymore.

 But..I did find that working with interns fresh out of college was "interesting" . Especially from large companies who had no shop experience. They figured if they can create it on computer, it can be manufactured.

 I served my time on the shop floor before I was taken on as a designer, the old boss made sure you knew the basics & how to cut metal & think on your feet.

 Maybe it's a regional thing, but IMHO, it's becoming a global thing.

 Disclaimer: this is just my experience so please don't "flame" me..

 John


No flaming here ….I promise.     I don't necessarily have an answer for this problem.   But it's a problem.   A country who can't manufacture becomes a third world country.   It all starts with machine tools and their use.     It really is that simple.

Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: steamer on August 11, 2018, 12:15:09 PM
"Now I was a inquiring sod so when dad took the engine out of our car ford 8 (CWA 112 ) it was in the shed so at the age of ten I helped him while he was at work he came home to find it in bits all of it , was he mad at no he just said you took it apart so you will have to help me put it back together ( we go on holidays at the weekend) well it ran and we had the hols "


 :lolb:

I did the same thing....though the engine had a spun bearing, and was already out of the car...he came home to it disassembled and spread out over the yard.   He laughed because I was covered head to toe with engine oil and grime...…  "Now put it back together!"      :lolb:
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: JC54 on August 11, 2018, 07:50:40 PM
Following on from some of the comments on this thread, my first experience with engines at age 7 was an old villiers engine lurking in the corner of Dad's garage. I managed to strip it down, rebuild it without help from Dad (but from an Uncle) got it running much to Dad's surprise. All tools cleaned and replaced in their place.....
        I ran my own Auto Body-shop for several years and found that the majority of "so-called" trained youngsters that I employed had no practical or common sense skills whatsoever. I soon worked out which ones were worth persevering with and which hit the road. If they made a mistake fine we all do, but if they didn't listen to and take note of what you told them politely and quietly then then goodbye. Most people in the UK will remember the YTS programme, now we are slowly going back to proper apprenticeships.
     I am in my 60's where can I get a Model Engine Apprenticeship?  :old: :noidea: 
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: steamer on August 11, 2018, 08:07:12 PM
Following on from some of the comments on this thread, my first experience with engines at age 7 was an old villiers engine lurking in the corner of Dad's garage. I managed to strip it down, rebuild it without help from Dad (but from an Uncle) got it running much to Dad's surprise. All tools cleaned and replaced in their place.....
        I ran my own Auto Body-shop for several years and found that the majority of "so-called" trained youngsters that I employed had no practical or common sense skills whatsoever. I soon worked out which ones were worth persevering with and which hit the road. If they made a mistake fine we all do, but if they didn't listen to and take note of what you told them politely and quietly then then goodbye. Most people in the UK will remember the YTS programme, now we are slowly going back to proper apprenticeships.
     I am in my 60's where can I get a Model Engine Apprenticeship?  :old: :noidea:


Well put....Im not quite that old...though close...but I've given up being patient for multiple attempts, or after suffering back talk.   
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: Allen Smithee on August 13, 2018, 01:01:46 PM
You have to be patient, just as long as they ask the questions rather than making assumptions. Like:

"Hey boss - I've nearly finished that large gear-cutting job you wanted and I just need to know one thing before it's finished. That last gear tooth - did you want one wide one or two little narrow ones?"


AS
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: dvbydt on August 13, 2018, 03:56:30 PM
In an attempt to put some cheer into this thread, I used to be an Imagineering Tutor - after school for 10-11 year olds. It was always oversubscribed because the children learned to build model aeroplanes, Morse code buzzers, single transistor radios (with earbuds!). Have a look at their website :-

https://imagineering.org.uk/clubs/information

The story I have to tell was told by an amazed father at one parent's evening. His little girl was" helping" him with some DIY project and he asked her to hand him a screwdriver. She replied "Do you want it for a crosshead or a slotted screw?"

It is real surprising how much information young minds can absorb but you have to spend the time with them.

Ian



Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: Twizseven on August 13, 2018, 04:39:31 PM
The car engine stories take me back a bit.  My father (now 97) was an engineer all his life (at Cincinnati).  When I was about 4 he found me outside the house giving a near neighbour lessons on where and how he could jack his car up so as to put the spare wheel on to fix a puncture.  He followed my instructions and did it.

When I had wanted my first car at 17 (1967) I was told I could have my mothers 1954 Standard Eight.  ONE CONDITION.  I had to take the engine out, strip it, rebore it, fit new piston rings, decode the head and re-assemble it all.  Then repeat the exercise with the braking system.  He would not help and I had to learn the hard way.  I could ask questions but had to make sense if the answers and work it all out for myself.  It all worked and it lasted me a few years.  I was then stripping and rebuilding all my mates cars and servicing them.

I remember going to an engineering show with him one day.  One if his apprentices was doing some scraping on a flat plate.  Dad was not happy with the job he was making of it.  He took the scraper, demonstrated how to do it properly, then dug two nice grooves for the guy to scrape flat.  I was surprised he did not get the scraper buried in his head by the apprentice.

I learnt a lot from him but not as much as I should have done when he was able to show me.  Unfortunately he cannot use his lathe now.

Colin
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: steamer on August 13, 2018, 04:54:22 PM
In an attempt to put some cheer into this thread, I used to be an Imagineering Tutor - after school for 10-11 year olds. It was always oversubscribed because the children learned to build model aeroplanes, Morse code buzzers, single transistor radios (with earbuds!). Have a look at their website :-

https://imagineering.org.uk/clubs/information

The story I have to tell was told by an amazed father at one parent's evening. His little girl was" helping" him with some DIY project and he asked her to hand him a screwdriver. She replied "Do you want it for a crosshead or a slotted screw?"

It is real surprising how much information young minds can absorb but you have to spend the time with them.

Ian

It's amazing isn't it?    A mind is like a parachute.   It only works when it's open!   I'm happy to state, that this youngin is coming around.   He likes the nuts and bolts, and asks why a lot.    Good for him!....

Dave
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: b.lindsey on August 13, 2018, 06:09:27 PM
 Great Dave!!! You got through to him. I had an email from a former advisee this morning ( the school email is still active) wondering why he has a hold and can't register for classes which begin next monday :ShakeHead:. As I recall he never finalized a plan for my approval last spring. He also missed/ignored the email back in May noting my retirement and assigning him a new advisor.  :ShakeHead: :ShakeHead:.

Some you get through to, some just never get it. If I had had one I would have emailed him back an application for Mc Donald's.

Bill
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: steamer on August 13, 2018, 06:32:13 PM
Great Dave!!! You got through to him. I had an email from a former advisee this morning ( the school email is still active) wondering why he has a hold and can't register for classes which begin next monday :ShakeHead:. As I recall he never finalized a plan for my approval last spring. He also missed/ignored the email back in May noting my retirement and assigning him a new advisor.  :ShakeHead: :ShakeHead:.

Some you get through to, some just never get it. If I had had one I would have emailed him back an application for Mc Donald's.

Bill


 :lolb:
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: b.lindsey on August 13, 2018, 06:51:54 PM
Kind of reminds me of this oldie but goodie

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5ZkdHImCuQ

Bill
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: 10KPete on August 13, 2018, 08:24:08 PM
Now that's funny. Never heard of the guy but I shore doo like 'im!

 :lolb: :lolb:

Pete
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: Johnmcc69 on August 13, 2018, 11:41:20 PM
Nice one Bill!

 Dave, glad you got it all sorted out.

 John
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: Shadow on August 14, 2018, 12:08:37 AM
A resident doctor came up to me and asked if I could help him with his microscope. I followed him to the end of the room and he pointed to it. I asked what the problem was and he said "there is no light." I reached over and turned the switch on. He asked if that was all that was the matter with it. In the middle of a group was not the time to go any further. Possibly he needed to do something not involving any equipment.


A favorite of mine.

I overheard two nurses in scrubs walking down the hall when one said "My husband called and asked if I had seen his stink bait bucket".

Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 14, 2018, 12:15:41 AM
I overheard two nurses in scrubs walking down the hall when one said "My husband called and asked if I had seen his stink bait bucket".

 :lolb: :lolb: :lolb: Ah man...that brought back some memories.
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: Tin Falcon on August 14, 2018, 04:15:51 PM
Dave  first impression is WOW just Wow.   But thinking about the situation I have a couple questions  and a comment. Was the proper work surface available in the shop . a large lead block ?? A  piece of end grain wood a piece of tree stump.  or at least a sheet of heavy plywood? And the other thing that comes to mind IIRC leather is often tooled on a granite or marble surface. So a casual exposier to leather working could have caused  this confusion especial if an appropriate surface was not readily  available.

I am not trying to make any excuses here. But maybe offering an alternate perspective. Proper supervision and training go a long way . one can not assume anything. with the inexperienced. And yes you handled the situation well.

If I send someone to my hammer drawer there are at least 10 choices. I need to remember that.
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: steamer on August 14, 2018, 11:36:47 PM
Dave  first impression is WOW just Wow.   But thinking about the situation I have a couple questions  and a comment. Was the proper work surface available in the shop . a large lead block ?? A  piece of end grain wood a piece of tree stump.  or at least a sheet of heavy plywood? And the other thing that comes to mind IIRC leather is often tooled on a granite or marble surface. So a casual exposier to leather working could have caused  this confusion especial if an appropriate surface was not readily  available.

I am not trying to make any excuses here. But maybe offering an alternate perspective. Proper supervision and training go a long way . one can not assume anything. with the inexperienced. And yes you handled the situation well.

If I send someone to my hammer drawer there are at least 10 choices. I need to remember that.

Well, his supervisor, told him to do it on the plate.   Neither one of them asked me first.   I stated to the CEO...that's not happening again.    The go to me first.

His supervisor let him swing too..... :Mad:

Dave
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: Tin Falcon on August 15, 2018, 01:04:45 AM
Sound like the supervisor needs some training !!!
Almost as bad as using a starrett  0.0001 mic for a c clamp.
worse momentarily of course.
Like i asked earlier do they have an appropriate backing surface.
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: steamer on August 15, 2018, 01:42:14 AM
No....6 months ago there wasn't even a shop....it's growing in spits and spurts...and I have limited space....but I do have lumber for the cover!... 8)


Dave
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: Tin Falcon on August 15, 2018, 01:59:49 AM
IMHO you need to find buy or scrounge a piece of  3/4 ply about a foot square  that can be sacrificed for beating on and  a small piece of bench to park it.
And yes make a cover for the surface plate.
As far as tight space know all about it.
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: JC54 on August 15, 2018, 09:53:50 PM

Well, his supervisor, told him to do it on the plate.   Neither one of them asked me first.   I stated to the CEO...that's not happening again.    The go to me first.

His supervisor let him swing too..... :Mad:

Dave

This comment says a lot,, how can the youngster be blamed when his "boss" supervisor?  told him to use the plate??? To me the fault is with the so called SUPERVISOR not the young person... he is the person that a few quiet well chosen words should be said to.... Definitely outside the hearing or view of anyone else.. :Mad: :cussing: :slap:
Title: Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
Post by: steamer on August 16, 2018, 02:01:46 AM
Ok guys   context is drifting    enough now
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