Model Engine Maker

Engines => Your Own Design => Topic started by: Craig DeShong on September 03, 2019, 01:16:13 AM

Title: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on September 03, 2019, 01:16:13 AM
I built my first Otto Langen Atmospheric engine around six years ago.  It took about a year and a half to build it and another eighteen months to get it to run. :) As the years have passed I’ve learned a lot and have listened to advice given by those who have more experience that I  :old: (such as Wayne Genning) and now with much experience and excellent advice, the engine runs quite well.

Two years ago I was invited to the Rough and Tumble Engineers Association at Kinzers, Pennsylvania to bring my model and help celebrate the 150th year anniversary of their original Otto Lagen: the oldest running internal combustion engine in America.  While I was in attendance, the germ of this project was born.

The Rough and Tumble Engineers Association at that time had on loan from the Henry Ford Museum, their Crossley built Otto Langen.  Two years later, the Crossley engine is still on loan. 

I planned a trip to Kinzers (Rough and Tumble) this past August with the primary objective to get many detailed photos and measurements of the Crossley engine so that I could attempt a model of this engine.
So you can become familiar with this engine, I provide a photo of the engine as it currently resides at Rough and Tumble.
(https://i.postimg.cc/qMG5z1Nk/1.jpg)

We were all remarking that this engine is an extremely well built machine; the folks at Crossley, way back when, built a magnificent machine.  Below I given you a closer photo of the front of the engine with the builders plate.

(https://i.postimg.cc/WzwXq4b9/2.jpg)

And a photo of the sign Rough and Tumble supplies with a few of the engine details.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Kjx5byrt/3.jpg)

Also a photo of the Crossley with Rough and Tumble's Otto Langen.
 Two original Otto Langen engines side by side; something you don’t often get to see.

(https://i.postimg.cc/jdJjTJ2Q/4.jpg)

I can’t speak highly enough about the folks at Kinzers.  They permitted me to get all the measurements and photos I needed.  Needless to say, care for the engine was paramount in my mind as I did this.

(https://i.postimg.cc/4x6N7kzY/5.jpg)

Now I know Jo is going to say, “Jeez, can’t you build a model with CASTINGS?”.  Never fear Jo, I’ve purchased the flywheels already and they are castings. :cartwheel:  I scoured the internet and found these 11 inch flywheels that, when turned down to 10 inches, will very closely resemble the flywheels on the full size.  That makes the model at around 1/6th size.  These flywheels are HEAVY; this thing is gonna coast between hits "forever".

(https://i.postimg.cc/76df11bh/6.jpg)

One last picture where I show my progress on the design of this engine.  It’s going to present some unique challenges, but then if there were no challenges, where would the fun lie?

(https://i.postimg.cc/zfPB5wC7/7.jpg)

The design is progressing slowly and I’m concentrating on getting the major measurements established.  Once that’s done, I’m thinking I’ll go back and try to make some of the major parts look more like the original casings.
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Dave Otto on September 03, 2019, 01:21:52 AM
Interesting project Craig, looking forward to following along.

Dave
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: steamer on September 03, 2019, 01:36:46 AM
Nice project!   I'm looking forward to watching this one.

Dave
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: cheepo45 on September 03, 2019, 01:38:09 AM
Very cool project, Craig.
Good talking to you at the R+T Museum.
I will be watching with interest.
 Scott
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Johnmcc69 on September 03, 2019, 02:25:52 AM
Great project Craig!
 I'm along for the ride.
 :popcorn:
 John
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Jo on September 03, 2019, 07:12:40 AM
Now I know Jo is going to say, “Jeez, can’t you build a model with CASTINGS?”.  Never fear Jo, I’ve purchased the flywheels already and they are castings. :cartwheel:  I scoured the internet and found these 11 inch flywheels that, when turned down to 10 inches, will very closely resemble the flywheels on the full size.  That makes the model at around 1/6th size.  These flywheels are HEAVY; this thing is gonna coast between hits "forever".

 :D

It will be nice to see a model of the Crossley version of the Otto Langen being made.

Jo
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: b.lindsey on September 03, 2019, 01:29:45 PM
A wonderful project Craig. I am sure you will do it justice and end up with another fine version of this unique engine.

Bill
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Brian Rupnow on September 03, 2019, 01:49:21 PM
Very interesting Craig. I will follow along and watch your progress.---Brian
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Alyn Foundry on September 03, 2019, 04:02:30 PM
Hi Craig.

I too will be following with great interest.

Here's a link to a 3 HP engine, the largest size built by Crossley brothers of Manchester.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmJy_BsFwcA

Currently installed at the Anson Engine museum near Stockport Manchester.

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: kvom on September 03, 2019, 08:49:05 PM
Better not underestimate ceiling height with that puppy/   ;D
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on September 06, 2019, 12:49:45 AM
Dave, Dave, Scott, John, Jo, Bill, Brian, Graham, Kirk; thanks for stopping by and showing interest in this new project.  I believe it’s going to be very interesting as it moves along.

Scott- GREAT to see you too at Kinzers; I’m thinking of making my appearance an annual event.  As I said before; it’s a great show with LOTS of interesting people.

I’m glad Graham posted the video above.  You can see that the Crossley version of the Otto Langen fires and the piston immediately returns to the bottom of the cylinder with a governor mechanism that directly controls the escape of the pawl and ratchet.  This is distinctly different that the German built versions, where controlling the escape of the spent gasses controls the next cycle.

With hurricane Dorian slowly moving up the coast it’s been a rainy day today, so I spent the day moving forward with the design of this engine.  I’ve finished the governor design and am well into the pawl release mechanism design.  I’ve included a few images of the main assembly for your purview, but it’s hard to make out detail from what I’ve given you.  The current design is also probably fraught with errors and inconsistencies.  Designing an engine takes many hours (days).

I’ll be cutting all the gears for this engine, including the bevel gears that drive the governor.  Having never made bevel gears I’ve done a “trial run” in aluminum and everything came out fine.  I’m using the Ivan Law book and I can’t recommend it high enough for anyone who contemplates making their own gear trains.  In a design like this you really need to get all the questionable stuff behind you because it’s easy to design yourself into a dead end if you expect to be able to do something and it doesn’t work out.

Well, enough blabbering… here’s a few images of the design to date.

(https://i.postimg.cc/FR37ZdSx/Main-Assembly-1.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/rF8K1pwS/Main-Assembly-2.jpg)
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Johnmcc69 on September 06, 2019, 02:08:16 AM
Good stuff there Craig!

 Not to derail this thread, but how long have you been running "SolidWorks"?

 I'm thinking about moving away from my current CAD. (PRO-E/CREO)

 JOHN
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on September 06, 2019, 02:57:53 AM
Hi John

I'm using Alibre Professional.  I upgraded from "cubify" about a year ago.  I used cubify for around two years previously.
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Jasonb on September 06, 2019, 07:00:27 AM
Craig, are you on maintenance as that does not look like the current version or just running in the old legacy mode?

It's going to be an interesting one to watch, which will you build first this or that upright you drew earlier in the year?
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on September 06, 2019, 01:42:17 PM
Jason, Thanks for your interest. 

The Alibre folks sold me a life-time licence for the current version at the time of sale for a very attractive price.  I suspect, as time passes, my version will get a little "long in the tooth".  As a modeler, I can't see needing all the bells and whistles of the newer versions, since they probably concentrate on 3D printing, something I'll never be able to afford.  Down the road it will be interesting to see if a windows update permanently breaks my version and how the Alibre folks will address that.

What do you mean by "old legacy mode?"

I still have the Regal design on the back burner; even have a nice chunk of aluminum set aside for the frame.  I suspect I'll get to it eventually.  My plans are to build the Crossley when I have completed the design.  Making a model of the Crossley Otto Langen has been rattling around in my mind ever since I first saw the full size a few years ago.  It currently has my interest so that is what receives my attention.

This is the first model I've designed with the Alibre product where I'm familiar enough with the tool so that my concentration can remain on designing the model and not be drawn off to concentrating on "driving the tool".  I'm in a mode where I design a few components and then assemble those components into sub-assemblies, then the sub-assemblies into a main assembly.  From there I can take measurements and either "tweak" the existing components as necessary or use that information in the design of more components, building on that principal until the design is complete.  In reality you're building the model, logically, within the computer.  It's a new way of thinking for me.

Also, I'm planning on making a full set of drawings with the intention that someone else (besides me) could build the model using them.
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Jasonb on September 06, 2019, 04:04:18 PM
The latest version adds shadow and highlights to the parts, not to the same extent that Fusion does though definately not a full render but more than it did upto a couple of months ago. Line weights are also different as well as several other tweaks and fixes.

You can switch these off which is like running the older version in the same way the latest update to Fusion 360 can be reverted to the old look.

I design in much the same way as you doing groups of parts into sub assemblies and then the main assembly going back and forth tweaking fits and sizes, this is how things look now.
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Brian Rupnow on September 06, 2019, 04:29:21 PM
Nice 3D work guys.I worked the first 30 years of my career on a drafting table. I thought all this computer stuff was just science fiction. Now after 25 years on CAD I wonder how i could have been so naive'.---Brian
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on September 09, 2019, 11:06:41 PM
I have heard that the folks at the Smithsonian Institution have an Otto Langen engine that was destroyed through ignorance when they incorrectly tried to run it years ago.

I was at a show this weekend and though I don’t recall the series of events that lead up to it; I managed to overcharge my model :hammerbash: and though it didn’t blow the piston out through the top of the engine; when the piston hit the flat table above the cylinder so violently the force sheared off a clevis pin holder that attaches the rack to the piston :o and I was out of business for the remainder of the day. :insane:

Today I’ve been making repairs and the model is running again. :ThumbsUp:

While I had it apart I used the opportunity to do a little “what – if” in answering some questions I need answered to move ahead with the design of this Crossley engine. :thinking:  The bore of my Otto Langen is a tad over 2 ¼ inches and the scale bore of the Crossley would be right at 2 inches so I figured my current Otto Langen ought to fire with the same characteristics as this Crossley model I plan to build.

My existing model lifts the piston around 7/8th inch and the resulting charge provides a stroke of nearly eight inches in height.  This length stroke is way to long for the Crossley if I want to maintain scale so I fiddled around with adjusting the lift height of the piston and measuring the resulting stroke.  When I had reduced the piston lift height to around one half inch the resulting stroke had been reduced to around four inches- much more in line with a stroke length for this Crossley model.

So I’ll be setting the piston lift to around ½ inch on the Crossley and this “should” allow the scale cylinder height to accommodate the resulting movement of the piston in the bore.  One more issue resolved in the design of this model.
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on September 12, 2019, 12:52:23 AM
The design of this model has been moving along.  Most of what is left to do is cosmetic in nature, so that the model, though made from bar stock, preserves the “flavor” of the original.

Before I get too involved in the time consuming nature of this later design phase I thought I would concentrate on some of the parts of this model which might need design refinement.  Since this design refinement might result in an alter of frame measurements I’m thinking it prudent to address these issues before I get into the final frame design and construction.

One of these issues I discussed earlier up thread was the design and construction of the bevel gears that will drive the fly-ball governor. 

In this photo I’m forming the gear blank, taking a facing cut to reduce the piece to the correct thickness.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HsqWSspZ/1.jpg)

The next task was to cut the 45 degree shoulder for the face of the gear teeth.  I’m doing this with the compound slide, having set its angle to the crosshead guide at 45 degrees.  I’m also running the lathe “backwards”.
(https://i.postimg.cc/85cVpqpf/2.jpg)

Moving on to the mill.  Here I have my indexing head mounted to the table at 45 degrees in order to cut across the face of the gear blank and form the individual gear teeth.
(https://i.postimg.cc/VvbQMnbY/3.jpg)

I failed to provide a photo of the gears I produced so I give it below.  The larger (drive) gear is the final gear I’ll use on the model and it has been cut from steel.  The smaller gear is still aluminum because I need to fabricate it on the end of the governor itself.  I will make it again, but in steel, when I build the governor.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y2JjPxRz/4.jpg)


Having worked out potential problems with the bevel gears, I thought I’d look into fabricating the sprag clutch.  I guess I could purchase one of these but I made the one on my first Otto Langen and it works well so I’m going to attempt to make this one also.

Here  is an image of the clutch internals.  You can see that it is comprised of an outer shell with a series of ramps cut into the inner surface.  Inside this shell is a round rotor, attached to the drive shaft.  There are cylindrical rollers placed on the ramps between the outer shell and the internal rotor.

When the central shaft is rotated clockwise the rollers are rotated to the thicker back of the ramps and the central shaft can rotate freely.  When the central shaft is rotated counter clockwise the rollers are rotated to the thinner front of the ramps where they jamb in the ramp.  This causes the outer shell to be carried around with the central shaft.
(https://i.postimg.cc/qvpBfD3y/5.jpg)

This is my drawing of the outer shell with the ramps.  This is one of many drawings I’ve made to assist me in the construction of the ramps.  With this drawing I can locate and drill the four outer mount holes as well as some “starter” holes for the individual ramps.
(https://i.postimg.cc/qRKH62Kp/6.jpg)


Finally, here is the setup on the mill.  I’ve started work on the outer ring blank and have drilled all the holes indicated in the above drawing.  Next I’ll start fabricating the ramps.
(https://i.postimg.cc/YC0Vm1cT/7.jpg)
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: b.lindsey on September 12, 2019, 01:43:49 AM
Making good headway on the design and fabrication both. Still following as closely as I can ...good stuff!!

Bill
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: crueby on September 12, 2019, 01:55:35 AM
Following along here too!  I love the diagram of the clutch, very interesting. Are the rollers balls or cylinders?
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Jasonb on September 12, 2019, 07:05:01 AM
Craig, did you cut both those gears with the 45degree setting? I would have thought you need something more like 20/70 as anything other than 1:1 are cut at different angles for pinion and wheel.

Have a look at Simon's lane and Bodley  thread

http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,7093.msg205179.html#msg205179
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on September 12, 2019, 05:41:04 PM
Bill and Chris; thanks for your comments. 

Jason, thanks for the input; getting helpful input is one of the reasons I post here.  According to a calculator I found, the angles on the gear cones should be 71.5 degrees and 18.5 degrees so you were pretty much spot on.  Though the gears I made seem to run well, I'm going to look into this.  Thanks.

The rollers are cylinders.  I'll make the clutch itself out of steel and the rollers out of brass as I did with my first Otto Langen.  This allows the rollers, which can be easily replaced, to take the wear as opposed to the machined surfaces.  Hardening the clutch would probably be a better solution but I haven't seen the necessity.

I'm appending a PDF of the clutch that you should be able manipulate.  I don't know if the board will allow this type of PDF for fear of transmitting a virus and if the board doesn't I can understand why.
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on September 16, 2019, 09:48:26 PM
Moving forward with the design of this model…

As I stated up thread, I’m keen to hash out some of the potential problems with this build; problems that might end up changing the design.  I wouldn’t want to put a lot of effort into the actual build, only to find out that a re-make of a lot of what I’d completed was required because  of a design change.  I’m going to go ahead and make the clutch and .. Jason… have a re-look at the bevel gears before the design progresses any further.  Once I get over these two potential hurdles I’m pretty sure the design will be ok.

Starting with the sprag clutch.  The internal design of the clutch is to have ramps that “jamb” rollers in place, forcing the entire mechanism to spin in one direction and allow the rollers to clear the ramps and allow the internal rotor to spin freely in the other.  Getting the ramps machined correctly is critical to the success of this clutch.

Below you see the layout for one of the ramps.  The given measurements come out of the design tool.  The ramp is, in reality, an arc of a circle with the center offset from the center of the clutch.  Each of the six ramps gets the same x,y offset with respect to its placement on the disk circle.  Here I’m showing just one of the layouts for clarity.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Hsy8WNnN/pic1.jpg)

To machine the ramps I’m using my rotary milling head.  This allows me to mount the disk in my milling vice and use the x,y coordinates on the table to set the offset for the center of the arc, and then mill the arc using the rotary milling head.  One thing I didn’t plan for was the need for a long reach end mill, since the depth of cut is 13/16th inch.  I ordered three and broke only one. ;D
(https://i.postimg.cc/Z5P9pyrF/pic2.jpg)


Below is a better view of how the milling operation was performed. 
(https://i.postimg.cc/0yCYx4Hs/pic3.jpg)


And a photo of the completed clutch shell with the six ramps finished.
(https://i.postimg.cc/L8v1G1n4/pic4.jpg)



With the outside of the clutch complete I started on the internal rotor.  This piece mounts inside the above part and is fixed to the main shaft with a key.  Here I’ve sized the piece, drilled and reamed the center hole, and machined a lip where a bearing will interface. 
(https://i.postimg.cc/SsYYX1Vj/pic5.jpg)


Here’s a photo of the completed rotor with the keyway broached.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FHnKjgYS/pic6.jpg)

Next I’ll be looking at the sides of the clutch housing and the bearings.
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: crueby on September 16, 2019, 09:53:40 PM
Great work on the clutch! 

Thats the first time I've seen a milling head like that, it must be an interesting mechanism inside it to drive the spindle at an offset. A rotary table/adjustable offset in the mill head, that would open up all sorts of operations. Is that a common accessory for larger mills?
Chris
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on September 16, 2019, 10:41:37 PM
Chris, I don't believe these are that common.  Several companies made "attachments" for the Bridgeports and Bridgeport clones to extend their capabilities and Volstro was one of them that made this milling head for the Bridgeport and several other mills I believe.

I have a machinist friend who has one and some years ago showed me how it worked.  When I got my Bridgeport some time back, getting one of these milling heads was on the "to do" list. 

Today, of course, they are all obsoleted by CNC machining.  You can pick them up from used equipment dealers for a reasonable price if you are patient.  There were two for sale at Cabin Fever last January, priced at about the top of the price range.   
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on September 18, 2019, 08:45:02 PM
Thanks for those of you following along.

Today I finished the work on the Sprag Clutch and I couldn’t be more pleased.  The clutch functions well, freewheeling in the one direction and instantly and positively grabbing in the other.  There is also no tendency to “stick” when the direction is reversed after engaging.

With this post I’m documenting the machining of the remaining component parts… Here is a photo of the sides of the clutch.  The inboard clutch side attaches to the drive gear, thus the four drilled and recessed holes in the one cover.  The other four holes present in both sides are for assembling the clutch body.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0yNYkngK/1.jpg)


Since the outside of the clutch freewheels on the shaft the clutch needs bearings to support the clutch body (the part with the ramps) and center it over the rotor.  Here is one of the bearings.  The narrow diameter presses into the center hole in the cover while the larger end fits in the recessed side of the rotor.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZqB63q5T/2.jpg)


This is the onboard bearing.  It is longer because the drive gear (the gear that meshes with the rack) rides on this bearing and is attached to the clutch body.  I haven’t made the drive gear as of yet.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cHfY9532/3.jpg)


Now a photo of the clutch under assembly with the rotor and rollers installed within the clutch body.  It’s sitting on one of the covers and the other cover is sitting alongside, waiting to be attached.
(https://i.postimg.cc/637wtDcb/4.jpg)


Proof is in the pudding as they say… I made a “dummy” shaft, just to test the functioning of the clutch and clamped it in my vice, keyed the shaft to the internal rotor as will be done on the real assembly, and assembled the clutch; here is the result. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tod6Rjr11wQ


Now to revisit the bevel gears and once I work them out I can think about completing the design and get into some serious building.
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Brian Rupnow on September 18, 2019, 08:52:03 PM
Craig--I've always known how those clutches work, but I never seen anyone make one before. Great stuff!!!---Brian
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on September 21, 2019, 02:31:16 PM
Brian: Thanks for your comment.  Thanks also to those stopping by to see my progress.

Here is a photo of the bevel gears on the full size Crossley I’m attempting to model.
(https://i.postimg.cc/nrk35Lmy/1.jpg)

As I stated previously and as Jason so kindly pointed out up thread; I needed to re-visit the design/construction of the bevel gears that will drive the fly-ball governor on this model. 

Jason’s comment prompted me to do a little research and the research lead me to this URL https://daycounter.com/Calculators/Bevel-Gear-Calculator.phtml which is an on-line bevel gear calculator  I found on the net.  If you input the diametric pitch and the relative number of teeth you wish the two gears to have the calculator supplies you with all the pertinent information you need to design/cut the appropriate gears.  Put in a DP of 32 and 10 teeth on the pinion and 30 on the gear and you’ll get the numbers with which I’m working.

I had a few false starts that reduced the length of a bar of ½ diameter aluminum tubing I’m using to form the pinion gear by a few inches and added some heft to my scrap bin, but in the end I got things sorted out.

At the risk of being overly pedantic, I’m going to go through the steps to make one of these bevel gears.  No special equipment is needed (like Chuck Fellow’s helical gear cutter I used on my previous project); just a few gear cutters and a dividing head.  Ivan Law fully describes the process in the book I mention up thread. 

Forming a bevel gear required three passes for each gear tooth. After completion of the 1st pass the gear blank looks like the photo below.
(https://i.postimg.cc/5yx3wMrn/2.jpg)

You should notice that each of the gear teeth form a wedge.  The next two passes will remove additional material so that the individual gear teeth are formed correctly.  This is done by rotating the dividing hear ¼ of the travel normally done to advance to the next gear tooth position and then adjusting the height of the mill table so that the cutter enters the gear blank from the center of the gear, in the center of the previous cut, and shaves material off the bottom of the gear wedge, forming the top of a gear tooth.  In this photo I’m about to start pass two.
(https://i.postimg.cc/KvpNgwDD/3.jpg)


Here is another look from the other side of the same operation.  It’s hard to tell exactly what’s happening in these pictures (and hard to tell when milling the gears also).  Sound more than anything is an indicator.  The cutter enters to blank with relatively little sound and the sound of the cutter removing material intensifies as it cuts deeper into the wedge.
(https://i.postimg.cc/gjkVxHw7/4.jpg)


With the second pass complete, the bottom of all the gear teeth has been formed.  Now the gear blank is rotated backwards ½ the rotation you would require to advance to the adjacent gear tooth, the mill table is lowered so that the gear cutter again enters the gear blank from the center of the gear, in the center of the previous cut, and material is shaved off the top of the gear wedge, forming the completed gear tooth.  In this photo I’m about to start the 3rd and last pass.
(https://i.postimg.cc/G2bYfxjp/5.jpg)


Here is a photo of the complete gear
(https://i.postimg.cc/gjF05zpH/6.jpg)


The pinion is formed using the same three pass technique.  Lastly I give you a short video of the two gears.  Both these gears were cut from aluminum as a “trial run” to make sure I have the correct design and process.  Now I’ll repeat the process using steel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjA6WzDQXzE
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Brian Rupnow on September 21, 2019, 03:29:06 PM
Keith--if you are trying to achieve a 2:1 ratio, a 10 tooth and 30 tooth won't do it. Maybe I missed something.---Brian
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Jasonb on September 21, 2019, 04:13:45 PM
It's for a governor, not timing gears.

Those look a lot better Craig
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Jo on September 21, 2019, 04:24:39 PM
They look to run ok for a model Craig  :ThumbsUp:

The ratio of the two gears in comparison with the original engine gears also looks right  :)

Jo

Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on September 21, 2019, 07:28:26 PM
Brian.  1 to three is what I need.  Thanks for your concern.
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on September 21, 2019, 11:22:59 PM
Jason and Jo, Thanks for your comments.  Thanks for those of you who stop by to silently see what I’m doing.

Today is my last visit with gears for a while (did I hear a cheer? Might have come from me  :embarassed:, I'm about ready to do something else).  While I had the dividing head on the mill and all setup with the appropriate angle, and while I have the procedure fresh in my mind (yea, we old guys do tend to forget things now and again :noidea:) I thought I’d go ahead and make the drive gear in steel for the actual model.  I’d like to go ahead and make the pinion gear also but I’m not so sure of how it attaches to the governor yet so it will have to wait.
 
Here are two photos of the finished gear, looking a lot like the gear on the full size- except that up thread you might have noticed that the shoulder on the original gear is on the gear teeth side; no way for me to fabricate the gear in that way that comes to mind. 

(https://i.postimg.cc/hvj2kB0h/20190921-180117.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/43gBJt1D/20190921-180144.jpg)
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: b.lindsey on September 22, 2019, 01:13:05 AM
Great progress Craig. The clutch is a real jewel too. Thanks for showing its fabrication.

Bill
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Jasonb on September 22, 2019, 07:14:12 AM
Came out good, short of silver soldering the gear onto a boss there is no easy way to have cut it with the equipment we have. The original would have been done with a machine more like a shaper so the groove between boss and teeth would have provided run out for the tool.
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: kvom on September 25, 2019, 10:51:57 AM
I have only seen one other shop that had a Volstro.  There were a couple for sale at the CF consignment table this year, but were overpriced and got no takers.

Nice job on the gears.  I will be trying to make a pair of bevels for the Greene's governor sometime in the future.
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: fumopuc on September 28, 2019, 07:35:57 AM
Hi Craig, I am following along quietly, a very interesting build report.
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on September 28, 2019, 11:20:57 PM
Bill, Jason, Kirk, and Achim; thanks for your comments and encouragement.  Thanks also to those stopping by to see the latest posts.

I’ve been putting in some marathon design days as of late on this project and the design is pretty much complete and firmed up at this point.  I’m going to go ahead and order the cast iron for the cylinder liner and the aluminum for the cylinder column and base next week.

While that’s on the way I’m going to have a thorough go-though with the design; looking for inconsistencies and errors.  It’s much easier to make corrections to the “virtual” model before you start cutting metal and run into problems.

Winter will be setting in long before I get near completing this model. therefore I’m not taking time to make the drawings “pretty” with a lot of drawing numbers, identifying text, etc.  There will be many cold days this winter with the shop too cold to occupy and therefore nothing to do and I can go back and retrofit all that then.  I’m anxious to get started on the build and I’m hoping to start actual construction in another several weeks.

I’ve included some images of the design from my design tool.  These images don’t really do the design justice.  It’s really cool to get into the model with the design tool and check all the tolerances and interference.  Also it's neat to "work" the engine by moving the shafts and levers around and watching the interplay among the various parts.  Unfortunately, I can't show this to you so you're stuck with just the few images I've shown you.

This is a front erection drawing.  The flywheels will be castings (the only ones on the model) but I’ve drawn them too see relative scale.  These will machine out to around a 10 inch diameter.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QtBS8rzz/Main-Assembly-1.jpg)

Here is the same drawing as above, but a better look at the detail in the head.  There are lots of moving parts; the functions of which I’m planning to describe as the build progresses.
(https://i.postimg.cc/5Nm5M000/Main-Assembly-2.jpg)


Now I show you a view of the base with a little detail of the piston and valve.  As I did with my other Otto Langen, the valve will cycle opposite the full size.  On the full size, the valve moves from center position down to let in fuel and air to the cylinder plus light the carrier pilot within the valve, then full up to fire the engine, then center again to exhaust the spent gasses.

Since I’m using spark ignition, my valve motion will first move up and allow the fuel and air to enter the cylinder, then full down where a push rod under the valve will close a switch to fire the spark plug, then center to release the spent gasses.  I’ m taking a liberty here with the model to help with functionality.

(https://i.postimg.cc/76vJz86d/Main-Assembly-3.jpg)

Lastly I show an erection image from the rear of the engine.  Here you can see the green (at least in this image) fly ball governor and the clutch I detail in a previous thread.
(https://i.postimg.cc/RFzqF7pz/Main-Assembly-4.jpg)
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Alyn Foundry on September 29, 2019, 11:37:35 AM
Hi Craig.

The model is taking shape nicely, well done!

Have you considered using something proprietary for the cylinder? Perhaps a redundant hydraulic or pneumatic cylinder? A bore of 2" is not large but the stroke length you have not mentioned yet, might prove a little difficult to hone properly.

It's just a thought before you invest in that billet of cast Iron.

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: kvom on September 29, 2019, 05:07:03 PM
As I offered to Chris, I can give you a length of 2"OD 1.5"ID honed hydraulic tube if you're willing to go with a smaller cylinder size.  This definitely gets around the problems of eliminating taper in a long bore.
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on September 30, 2019, 09:52:00 PM
Kirk:  did you get my message?  In short, i’m Interested in the hydrolic cylinder.
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: kvom on September 30, 2019, 10:32:56 PM
I just noticed it.  Please try to give an accurate length needed.  The remaining tube is about 15" long (was 3' originally) so 9" would leave enough for another medium size engine.  I originally bought it from Bailey Hydraulics in Nashville, but they no longer list it on their website.  PM your address.
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: wgrenning on October 02, 2019, 02:21:35 AM
Great project Craig.  Thank you for sharing !   FYI, Here is the inside of the clutch from an early Deutz Otto Langen located at the Deutsches museum in Munich.  Note the similarity to the one you made.  As far as I know this is the only one made this way on an engine built by GasmotorenFabrik Deutz.
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on October 03, 2019, 12:44:07 AM
Graham: Thanks for thinking “out of the box” for me, and many thanks to
Kirk: for offering the hydraulic cylinder.  That is going to help give me a good close piston/ring/cylinder fit.  That is a requirement with these engines since they run of relatively low pressures; the combustion of acetylene is merely a vehicle to lift the piston against the atmosphere.  The energy to run the engine is that energy as it is reclaimed.

Many thanks also to Wayne for stopping in, commenting,  and adding interest to this thread.

Thanks also for those of you interested enough in my project to silently stop by and see the latest progress.

I think I’ve spent the entire month of September at the computer designing this model.  I’ve just finished three more intensive days where I, basically, re-assembled the model logically, checking measurements.  A few errors were found and corrected.  At this point I’m confident enough to proceed with the construction. :whoohoo: 

I stopped off at the local Metal Supermarkets warehouse, which is located conveniently just a few miles up the road and acquired the aluminum for the base and the column.  I’ve also ordered the gear cutters that I don’t have but I’ll need when I get around to cutting the spur gears.

Here is my drawing for the engine base.  The base is six inches in diameter and has a larger bottom section; then it slightly tapers through the column up to the “table” at the top of the engine (where all the action takes place).
(https://i.postimg.cc/c4Qvp5FB/1.jpg)


The warehouse didn’t have six inch aluminum rounds in stock but they did have this 6 x 2 ¼ piece of bar so I set about making it round.
(https://i.postimg.cc/7ZKZDv00/2.jpg)


With it rounded on one edge, I’m boring out the chamber for the sleeve.  I’m just getting this roughly to shape.  I’ll do the final bore after I’ve attached the cylinder to the base since the sleeve is pressed down through both pieces.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Vvw8n4Xz/3.jpg)



I’ve designed the engine with a removable plate in the base so that it can be removed and the combustion chamber easily cleaned.  I’ve found from my first Otto Langen that it can get pretty cruddy after hours of running so I’m providing an easy access for cleaning.  Here I’m cutting the recess for this plate.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fRPQBMY2/4.jpg)


Now I’ve turned the piece around in the lathe and am working the top side of the base down to approximate diameter.
(https://i.postimg.cc/nhC6sNNv/5.jpg)

After making mountains of swarf, I called it a day.  I still need to face off the top to get down to the 1.812 measurement as called for in the prints.
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Johnmcc69 on October 03, 2019, 01:26:53 AM
Looking real good Craig!
 Still silently following along...
 Gotta love those crazy CAD programs...
-Nice work there as well.

 John
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Alyn Foundry on October 03, 2019, 11:47:54 AM
Good morning Craig.

I noticed you mentioned the use of Acetylene as fuel for this engine.

Have you persevered with the use of Propane? At the Anson only the " carrier " is Hydrogen fuelled the main charge is Propane and air.

Acetylene is both messy and expensive and if you're going with electric ignition it seems unnecessary from my point of view.

The only " Atmospheric " engine in my collection, a Leek number 3 runs beautifully on Propane with a spark from a Trembler box. I'm aware that there are differences in the final part of the running cycle but it's the " POP " we're after! I'm reminded of my two youngest son's vying with each other to see who could shoot a Tennis ball the farthest with homemade " Spud " guns, hmmm, was Dad a bad influence, I wonder?

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on October 03, 2019, 01:43:03 PM
Thanks for your suggestions Graham.  Any and all input is appreciated.  I may try propane but I don’t hold out much hope.  My 1st Otto Langen won’t even try to run on propane, I can’t get it to fire even once with that fuel.  It runs well on acetylene and I have seen several other Otto Langen engines of this size and they all seem to use acetylene.

If you look up the chemistry you will see that acetylene reacts with oxygen in two separate chemical formulas, one producing carbon monoxide, the other carbon dioxide.  This gives a very large range of fuel to air ratios where combustion can occur.

Cuntrolling the fuel to air ratio with these engines is nearly impossible; thus I suspect is why I have better success with acetylene.
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Alyn Foundry on October 03, 2019, 02:22:14 PM
I agree totally with your sentiments Craig.

Propane is definitely a tricky gas to work with, particularly mixture. It has a very narrow band where a rapid burn occurs. This is what we want, of course.

I discovered that using " proprietary " made burners gave excellent mixture for both hot tube and engine alike.

Out of interest how do you ignite the charge on your first Otto engine? Is it a single spark or do you use a trembler box? I discovered that the trembler beat single spark by a long way.

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: kvom on October 03, 2019, 03:49:12 PM
After two weeks away from home and arriving back with a cold, I finally felt like entering the shop if only to cut off the hydraulic tube for Craig.  Hope to find a suitable packaging tube today or tomorrow.
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on October 03, 2019, 04:58:26 PM
Thanks Kirk.  And thanks forcthe "heads up".  I'll be sure to "sanitize" it when it arrives.  :lolb:
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on October 03, 2019, 05:00:14 PM
Graham... I use a "buzz box" which is probably the same as your "trembler box".
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Alyn Foundry on October 05, 2019, 01:40:52 PM
Graham... I use a "buzz box" which is probably the same as your "trembler box".

Indeed, the very same.

I've recently been in contact with Geoff Challinor, the curator of the Anson engine museum. They have one of Wayne's scale models.

It seems the culprit is " wet plug syndrome " When starting from cold Propane makes a tremendous amount of water vapour which condenses everywhere, including the little sparkplug at the bottom. This effectively kills the ignition, a non runner ensues. Like you, Geoff has found that Acetylene is the only fuel that works from cold.

So Craig, I stand corrected but what might be interesting is to see if you could change fuels once the engine has " warmed up " a little?

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on October 10, 2019, 10:31:18 PM
John, Graham, Kirk; thanks for stopping by, and a BIG thanks to Kirk  :ThumbsUp: for supplying the hydraulic cylinder for the bore on this project.

I’ve been working steadily on the interior of the cylinder and base these last few days.  I’ve also worked on some of the major profiling for the base as you can see in the photo below.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3rB2qzZv/pic1.jpg)


Here I’m starting to work down the diameter of this large (everything is relative) piece of aluminum.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XYT5FWnT/pic2.jpg)


In preparation of receiving the hydraulic cylinder I started boring out the interior of the column.  My first attempt at this (no photo provided) was to assemble the base to the cylinder and to bore the entire length to a diameter of 2 inches.  It didn’t take long for me to realize the folly of this venture. :'(  Trying to hold a bore within ½ a thousandth of an inch over nine inches was going to be very tedious. 

One of the great things of creating your own design is that you can change the design as required.  The design quickly morphed to: boring the base alone to the two inches and then boring the column to slightly over two inches, except for the very top of the column which I bored to slightly less than two inches.  This required me to hold a tight tolerance for only the base and again at the very top of the cylinder.  This also resulted in pressing in the hydraulic cylinder much easier since it only contacted the engine frame at the extreme bottom and top.

In this photo I’m boring the cylinder to slightly over the two inch diameter of the hydraulic cylinder sleeve.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zvBv62JC/pic3.jpg)


In this photo I’m boring the base alone to a size where the hydraulic cylinder could be pressed through the base.
(https://i.postimg.cc/2yVj2qwT/pic4.jpg)


With the aluminum frame ready to receive the sleeve (hydraulic cylinder) I’ve moved on to preparing the hydraulic cylinder.  Here I’m facing the ends to correct length.
(https://i.postimg.cc/tRM475qc/pic5.jpg)


With the hydraulic cylinder the correct length I’m shaving a bit of material off the cylinder so it will fit inside the aluminum frame.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Sx0Qfxz7/pic6.jpg)


I had changed the design so that the hydraulic cylinder would press into the base, slip through the majority length of the cylinder, and have a resistance fit into a final short length of the top of the cylinder.  I started with a two thousandths press fit at the base and it was obvious from the get-go that this was too stiff of a press.  I reduced the resistance to a one thousandths press fit and my hand arbor-press managed to press the hydraulic cylinder into the base about a half inch before the process stalled.  Fortunately, a machinist  friend has a hydraulic press which I used to finish the press.  He also informed me that larger diameters such as two inches really only need a ½ thousandth interference so I will file this away for future use.
(https://i.postimg.cc/tgpX8vks/pic7.jpg)


Here I show the engine base and cylinder (frame) with the hydraulic cylinder installed.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hvkns2hP/pic8.jpg)


I’ll be moving on to shaping the exterior of the base and cylinder next.  This will be merely cosmetic work. 

I was at a used equipment sale with a friend a while back and as we walked along the tables he picked up a bullnose and asked, ”Do you have one of these?”.  I informed him I didn’t know what it was so I doubted if I did.  He replied that it was a “bullnose” and you place it in the tailstock of you lathe to support larger diameter work than a standard live center would support.  I informed him that I doubt I needed it but he replied, “Man, you’re always making weird stuff and you need to buy this, you’ll need it sooner or later”.  I passed it by, and of course, now I need a bullnose. :embarassed:

Necessity being the mother of invention, I’ve made do with this fabricated doodad that will perform the same function for 1 ½ inch bores.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sgRyZHtT/pic9.jpg)


And here is the setup I’ll use starting tomorrow to complete the lathe work on the exterior.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3xChjChY/pic10.jpg)
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 10, 2019, 10:43:38 PM
I have a brand new bull-nose that I have never used. But I will, sometime. Story behind that is me machining a piece of pipe about 2" diameter x 6" long a couple of years ago. I only wanted to take a very light skim of material off the outside diameter to clean it up. I held one end in the chuck jaws, and thought, I should have something to support the outboard end, but, "Oh heck, I'm only going to take a very light cut---it'll be okay." Tool dug in, pulled pipe out of chuck jaws, pipe came out of lathe at 2000 miles an hour--missed me but put a hole in the drywall opposite where the lathe sets. After changing my pants, I cobbled up a fixture to support the outboard end and finished the job. Next day I bought the bull-nose.---Brian
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: kvom on October 10, 2019, 11:42:21 PM
Given that I shipped it on Monday it found its forever home pretty darn quickly.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on October 12, 2019, 10:31:14 PM
Thanks for those of you stopping by to see the progress. 

Kirk, a moment on panic.  I’ve had a few things misdelivered/lost lately and I thought, when I didn’t see it on the porch, that it had suffered the same fate… but I found it in the mailbox!

Progress continued over the last few days.  I profiled the exterior of the column and then made the cut-out for the slide valve.  The setup is below.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6qrcbhhf/20191012-165945.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/W4x72yW7/20191012-170539.jpg)
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Jasonb on October 13, 2019, 06:29:38 AM
Some good progress there.

It's a small bore for a large diameter column, was the original water jacketed all the way up as that would explain the need for the large OD much like the octagonal base on the earlier otto?
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on October 14, 2019, 03:51:12 AM
Jason

Scale bore would be 2 inches, not the 1 1/2 inches I'm using.

I do believe the full size has a extensive water jacket.  In the attached picture you can see a water drain coming out near the top of the column.
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on October 14, 2019, 09:58:09 PM
After another day of working on some remaining odds-and-ends on this base/cylinder I’m ready to put it aside and start working on the top frame and axle supports.  I’ve included a final picture of the cylinder/base but without looking hard you’d be hard pressed to see any difference from the previous pictures.

In case you've taken this as a challenge: I have drilled and threaded the mounts for the top frame, added some cosmetic studs to the base and some cosmetic bolt holes to the top of the cylinder, and I’ve drilled the fuel/air & exhaust passage from the valve face into the cylinder.

(https://i.postimg.cc/9QMPy2sp/20191014-124509.jpg) 
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on October 16, 2019, 09:54:33 PM
Thanks to all of you stopping by to see what’s going on.

This afternoon I continued my quest to make mountains of aluminum swarf :ThumbsUp: (and hopefully end up with a running model too :embarassed:). 

I’ve been working on forming the “top casting” (which on this model will be a simulated casting).  Lots of rotary table work so far on this part.  I thought I was taking pictures as I went along but when I checked the camera it contained only this one :shrug:.  I’ll need to be a bit more attentive in the future.  There is lots of work yet to do on this part before I can call it done.

(https://i.postimg.cc/9MjqgHgs/20191018-142228.jpg)
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on October 19, 2019, 01:18:03 AM
More progress on this simulated casting that mounts to the top of the cylinder and supports all the mechanics.

I probably should have mentioned at the offset of forming this piece that I’m using some extra thickness of this material as a way to hold the piece securely in the vice and keep it square as I measure out and fabricate the piece.  My supplier didn’t have a piece of aluminum one inch thick in the desired width so I obtained this 1 ½ inch piece.  Therefore I’m using the extra thickness for holding the piece and when it’s complete I’ll mill off this excess thickness.

Today I drilled the holes that mount it to the top of the cylinder.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QNmWmPQn/20191018-145326.jpg)


After drilling the holes it was time to mill in the supports for the vertical arms that support the main and secondary shafts.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vZggQZpp/20191018-150708.jpg)


Following that I milled the recess that fits over the top of the vertical column.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vT2TsJXY/20191018-170641.jpg)
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on October 21, 2019, 11:10:08 PM
Thanks for stopping by and following along.

Since the last post I’ve continued to work on the above part.  This is a platform on which all the mechanics attach, the two shafts mount, and the flywheels hang; this will be a lot of weight and at times stress.  As I continued to fabricate the part in aluminum I became increasingly concerned that the place where the vertical columns mounted was a weak point and subject to failure under load.  I redesigned the mount of the verticals but still felt uncomfortable with using aluminum for the platform and verticals.   I decided to upgrade the redesigned part to cast iron and subsequently ordered the required stock.

While I’m waiting for the cast iron to arrive I thought I’d work on the top piece on which the rack guide mounts as well as the inboard journal for the secondary shaft.  I’d prefer this to be cast iron also, but I dread making it with anything but aluminum, you’ll see why below.  It shouldn’t take near the stress as the other uprights, so I’m thinking (hoping) aluminum will be ok.

So you know that the finished part will (should?) look like, here is a rendering from the software.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HL0Lxc3P/Guide-And-Idle-Journal-1.jpg)

This is one of the more “funky” things I’ve tried to make so the journey is interesting.  The first task was to map out the steps I would take to fabricate the part.  This lead me down some blind alleys resulting in some re-thinking, since holding the part in the later stages would be tricky.  My final game plan seems to have been successful; I suspect other paths are also available.

My supplier only had round stock of the required size so I started with that.  Here I’m facing what will end up as the bottom of the part.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XqPjhw7X/20191021-084217.jpg)


Next was to turn the round bottom of the part to the required diameter.  The bottom is only ¼ inch in height so I didn’t see the necessity of turning the entire piece to size.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3Nk4drk4/20191021-090235.jpg)


Next I moved to the mill and after repeated passes with this 1 inch end mill, removed over half the stock.  Though much more material will be removed,  I now had a plane where the rack slide would mount as well as the beginnings of the inboard secondary journal mount.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CM9X5vtd/20191021-124635.jpg)


Turning the piece 90 degrees in the vice I now removed more material, forming the right hand side of the rack guide mount as well as further defining the inboard secondary shaft journal mount.
(https://i.postimg.cc/SKZthVCS/20191021-135315.jpg)


While I had this setup I continued to define the secondary shaft journal mount.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fbFjCPY9/20191021-141251.jpg)


Rotating the piece another 90 degrees in the vice, I removed stock in the front of the piece.
(https://i.postimg.cc/nhh4Jxkm/20191021-143806.jpg)



With this setup I was able to add more detail to this simulated casting.  I’ll say that it’s very gratifying to start with a lump of material and as work progresses, see the required part emerge from the blank.
(https://i.postimg.cc/JhyjsQS4/20191021-150514.jpg)



With the same setup I was able to drill the bolt mounts for the rack guide.
(https://i.postimg.cc/x1XX5156/20191021-151609.jpg)


Rotating the piece the final 90 degrees allowed me to remove more unnecessary stock.
(https://i.postimg.cc/RZJ0fbC8/20191021-153113.jpg)


With the top of the piece still retaining flat edges, I could mount it upside down in my vice and drill the mount holes for the piece as well as form some cosmetic voids.  I also milled out the void where the rack passes through the part.
(https://i.postimg.cc/T2k2sXpF/20191021-163955.jpg)


The piece is not done yet- but it’s getting close.  I still need to drill a few holes on which the secondary shaft journal mounts and form the top of the rack guide mount into a taper.  This is going to be more “art” than machining.  I’m hoping my belt sander will be of assistance on this.  We’ll see with the next post.  I have some time to figure this out while I’m waiting on delivery of the cast iron.
(https://i.postimg.cc/7hb44ffc/20191021-164209.jpg)
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Johnmcc69 on October 22, 2019, 12:44:58 AM
 :ThumbsUp:
That's a lot of carving! But looking great!
 :popcorn:
 John
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Admiral_dk on October 22, 2019, 11:42:09 AM
Talking about an intensive weight reduction - aka as converting stock into chips - not much left, but at least it looks good and you still have some good surfaces to clamp onto for the last opperations  :ThumbsUp:

OK - back to  :popcorn:  for me.

Best wishes

Per
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: awake on October 22, 2019, 07:07:13 PM
Craig, that is some amazing work! Reminds me of Michelangelo - looking at a solid piece of marble and seeing the statue inside it. :)

Question out of curiosity: did you consider cutting the first major section away using the bandsaw rather than milling it off? What would have been the pluses or minuses of doing it that way? Major pluses I can think of would be time (maybe) and having a chunk of stock left over (but may not be a particularly usable chunk); major minuses I can think of is that, when I've done something like this, I have been known to band saw just a wee bit too far ... !
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on October 22, 2019, 09:27:20 PM
John, Andy, and Per; thanks for your comments.  It was a ridiculous amount of material to remove.  As I stated above, I would have hated to do it with cast iron.

Thanks to those of you silently stopping by the see this project evolve.

Andy; my band saw is a cut off saw.  Holding the piece would have been problematic.  Were it a real saw, that would have been different.  Thanks for the suggestion though; I eagerly welcome any and all input.
 
This afternoon gave me time to address the remaining work with this piece.  Here you see me boring a concave area on the left of the rack guide. 
(https://i.postimg.cc/cCtzTYKs/20191022-143729.jpg)


After drilling and tapping the threads where the inboard secondary journal will attach all that was left was to form the curve on the rack guide.  I thought my belt sander would be a good tool for this but all it did was heat the part up to the point you couldn’t hold it any longer  :o (even with dipping it in water every once in a while).  The work progressed much faster when I tried using a course file like any self respecting machinist would do  :hammerbash: and I ended up using files to finish the profile.  It’s not “exactly” the profile in the drawings, but it mimics the full size fairly well.
(https://i.postimg.cc/GhGLmTMw/20191022-155741.jpg)

Now I’m left to wait on the cast iron to arrive so I can begin again on the top platform and verticals that support the axles.  I’m really thinking cast iron is required for this.  I can see someone trying to help me at a show sometime and innocently drag the model out of a vehicle by a flywheel. :facepalm2:  The shear stress on the verticals that support the flywheels would be astronomical.

Macmaster Carr is taking their sweet time shipping the cast iron. :'(  They waited all day Monday to fill the order and finally got around to it today.  I was wondering for a while if they were waiting for Alpha Centauri to explode, creating the cast iron for them. :lolb:  It’s supposed to show up later in the week. Maybe I’ll rummage around in my inventory and see if I have the material to start on the valve? 
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: awake on October 23, 2019, 03:19:40 PM
Andy; my band saw is a cut off saw.  Holding the piece would have been problematic.  Were it a real saw, that would have been different.  Thanks for the suggestion though; I eagerly welcome any and all input.

Hmm, I remember seeing the horizontal (cutoff) bandsaw. Mine that is of somewhat similar design has the capability to stand upright and work as a vertical bandsaw - it came with a cheesy stamped-steel plate that one could attach (only in the vertical mode), but I have made a heavier and smaller plate that can stay in place for horizontal or vertical. Mind you, guiding a piece of aluminum through the saw to make a cut like the one you would need is definitely a matter of extreme patience and, before long, burning hands! So usually I fixture a piece to use the horizontal mode for as much as I can. This may have something to do with the fact that I mentioned above, that I have been known to cut just a wee bit too far ...
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Roger B on October 23, 2019, 03:39:06 PM
I'm following along watching the swarf mountain grow  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:  :wine1: That's a lot of carving  :)
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on October 24, 2019, 02:38:11 AM
Andy and Roger; thanks for your input.  Thanks again for those of you stopping by.

Andy… yes, very tedious.  It was just easier to mill off the unwanted part.  Maybe I don’t have the patience you have! :thinking:

Today I thought I’d sidetrack myself with the valve; it needs to be made anyway and I wasn’t sure how long I’d have to wait  for the cast iron so arrive.  Of course, as soon as I started on the valve, the cast iron was delivered. :Doh:

Here is a photo of the valve on the original.  This valve is a lot busier than my valve needs to be since it lights and then moves an internal carrier flame to ignite the charge in the cylinder.  I just need to be concerned with in-letting fuel/air and then exiting the exhaust.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9FndCSNN/pic1.jpg)



I’m also reversing the motion of the valve.  On the full size the valve first moves down to inlet the fuel/air and light the carrier; then moves up to ignite the charge in the cylinder, then centers to exhaust the spent gasses.  My valve will first move up inlet the fuel/air, then move down to depress a push rod to energize a buzz box to fire the spark plug, then center to exhaust the spent gasses.

Below are software renderings of the valve I’ve designed.  As you can see… it “sort of” looks like the full size. :shrug:  One change you’ll immediately notice is that it lacks the cover for the pilot that lights the carrier flame.  I decided to omit the cover.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cL3nZJ3r/pic2.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/t4FYwM06/pic3.jpg)

Here is an exploded view.
(https://i.postimg.cc/qq9vZ8jQ/pic4.jpg)


There is a plethora of parts that I need to make, so let’s get started.  Here is my drawing of the valve frame.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wBGMm8LS/pic5-1.jpg)


I started with a block of cold rolled steel, cutting back the major step.
(https://i.postimg.cc/v89TcKBN/pic6.jpg)


Next, I cut the major shoulders
(https://i.postimg.cc/d1GFtzBR/pic7.jpg)

Tomorrow I’ll continue on the fabrication of this piece.
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Alyn Foundry on October 24, 2019, 11:32:25 AM
Hi Craig.

Nice work on bringing out the form from that billet, but you can probably guess the route I'd have taken!  ;)

Here's a link to N A Otto's patent for his " revolutionary " carrier flame ignition system.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US365701A/en

I hope it helps in the understanding of how these early engines were fired?

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: awake on October 24, 2019, 07:19:52 PM
Andy… yes, very tedious.  It was just easier to mill off the unwanted part.  Maybe I don’t have the patience you have! :thinking:

The nice thing about making suggestions is that the suggester doesn't have to stand there and implement them! :)

So, in the same spirit of helpfulness ... you do have that table saw sitting over in the corner. When I have needed straight but non-trivial cuts in aluminum, I have sometimes cut it in the table saw (e.g., cutting some 1/8" thick plate to a 12.5" square). A carbide-tipped blade handles it with ease ... but you surely do want very good eye production, and a long-sleeve shirt is a good idea as well - the "saw dust" that flies out when cutting aluminum can be a wee bit painful when it hits.

And of course, you want to practice good stock holding and guidance - kickback on a piece of aluminum is even worse than on a piece of oak. Given the shape and size of the block you started with, I'd probably not want to run it through the table saw just holding it by hand; I'd rather use something like a tenoning jig.

All of which to say, given the options, I might well have made the same choice to produce swarf. :)
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on October 24, 2019, 10:15:48 PM
Graham and Andy; thanks for stopping by and making suggestions.  Thanks to you that stop by to see the latest.

Graham:  If I were you, with your wealth of knowledge in making patterns and in casting, I would not have hesitated to do such.  Unfortunately, I have no experience with pattern making, nor do I know of a foundry that would do “one offs”.  I do recognize that there are a few parts on this engine that would benefit greatly from castings.

Andy:  You are a braver man than I. :praise2:  Cutting through, roughly a 1 ½ inch block of aluminum with a table saw, to me sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. :zap:  Maybe it can be done safely, but I lack the courage to try.  I’m over 70 and still have all my fingers; I accredit that to making conservative choices with the many years of wood working I’ve done. 

Onward with the model. 

I continued with then valve frame today, finished it, and then got a good start on another valve part… only to break off a center drill in the piece. :cussing:  From experience I know to just toss it away and start over. :toilet_claw:  No way can I get that hard chunk of center drill out.  It was time to turn the lights off and call it a day.


Before that evil occurrence I was working on the valve frame; here I was adding a bit more shape to the ears that are used to mount the piece on the engine.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ydxRMyyz/20191024-084254.jpg)


After that I cut the channel that contains the valve parts.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zfsLQYvT/20191024-093410.jpg)


And then added a bit more definition with this ¼ inch end mill/
(https://i.postimg.cc/tJC9SB3h/20191024-100635.jpg)


Time to begin forming the base.  The majority of the material was removed with a larger end mill, here I’m using a 1/8th inch end mill, basically, to form the radiuses.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cH1q0rvW/20191024-104214.jpg)


Time to drill some holes.  The pushrod that energizes the buzz box passes through the smaller hole.  The larger hole mounts a spring retainer that holds the parts of the slide valve under tension.
(https://i.postimg.cc/t4dmJ9Q4/20191024-105120.jpg)


Drilling the holes that the mounting bolts pass through to mount the valve to the engine.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4xwqwX8F/20191024-111301.jpg)


Can’t pass up a chance to use ALL my toys; here I’m using the rotary milling head to form these rounded shoulders.
(https://i.postimg.cc/nhwTCrSZ/20191024-112708.jpg)


Drilling holes for alignment pins that keep the parts of the valve in alignment.
(https://i.postimg.cc/GpFB6SyN/20191024-114646.jpg)


After a few more odds and ends; here is the valve frame mounted to the engine cylinder.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6QcWrsR9/20191024-122401.jpg)
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 24, 2019, 10:47:29 PM
Great thread Craig. I have cut aluminum plate with a carbide toothed blade in my table saw.--My recommendation is--don't do it.
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: awake on October 25, 2019, 03:56:25 PM
Beautiful work, as always!

Andy:  You are a braver man than I. :praise2:  Cutting through, roughly a 1 ½ inch block of aluminum with a table saw, to me sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. :zap:  Maybe it can be done safely, but I lack the courage to try.  I’m over 70 and still have all my fingers; I accredit that to making conservative choices with the many years of wood working I’ve done.

Braver, no. More foolish, very likely. :)

The first time I heard about cutting aluminum with a table saw I thought it sounded insane. I saw it done, and thought, "maybe." I tried it the first time with hesitation, and was surprised at how easily it cut. But as I said, the piece you are working on would make me pause - I would want to use something to hold it securely, like a tenoning jig, and I'd probably make several passes, 1/2" deeper each time.

And even then, I still might have gone the way of milling and swarf. I have a tendency to be overly parsimonious with materials, often forgetting that it might be much better to spend a little bit of money for another piece of stock than to use up a lot of time and effort in trying to save a usable scrap piece from the one I'm working on. As a starving student, that was a good habit ... maybe not so much now. :)
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: awake on October 25, 2019, 03:59:35 PM
Great thread Craig. I have cut aluminum plate with a carbide toothed blade in my table saw.--My recommendation is--don't do it.

Brian, I'd be interested in hearing more about your experience. I agree that the table saw is likely not the right tool for this particular job ... but there have been times when it has worked extremely well for me to cut larger sections of aluminum plate.
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Alyn Foundry on October 25, 2019, 04:24:10 PM
It's a " doddle " !!

We used to cut 3/8"/10mm thick sheet for our pattern plates using an industrial version of the Black and Decker circular saw.

We just fitted a Carbide tipped blade in place of the usual HSS version, no coolant and let the saw " do " the work, don't force it, in other words.

I don't know how true the following statement is but Martin, a joiner by trade told me that the Black and Decker saw had been developed to cut open American aircraft that suffered a forced landing during the last war?

That aside, it saved us many hours of work getting those plates to size for final finishing on the milling machine.

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on October 26, 2019, 03:09:28 AM
Interesting rabbit hole on cutting aluminum with a table/circular saw.  I can’t see me needing to do this again for this project, so I’ll not add more to the discussion.  I do have a ginormous (yea- it’s a real word) block of aluminum I’m saving for the Regal engine I designed last winter.  Maybe I’ll need to address it then?

Today was spent repeating many of the steps I did yesterday when I destroyed the piece I was making by breaking off the tip of a center drill in the work piece.  It was my own fault; I was spinning that tiny drill center WAY too slow.

This piece I’m calling the valve “Back Plate”.  It doesn’t exist in the full size.  On the full size engine, all the work I’m executing on this back plate is done on the base casting however, since this piece is faced by the “D” valve and needs a smooth front surface I’m making it a separate piece so that it can be surfaced properly. 

In case you’re wondering, I’m thinking of using some “Permatex Gasket Sealer” to seal the joint between the “Valve Frame” I made up thread and the cylinder.  Also I’ll use a bit more Peramtex between that “Valve Frame” and this “Back Plate” for an air tight seal.  As I already stated; this engine operates on relatively low pressures and I’m thinking the Permatex will do this job admirably.

The “Back Plate” is filled with passageways and cut-outs to channel the air, fuel, and exhaust as required.  In this photo I’m tapping the air and fuel intake passageways.  The small hole below the two larger holes is a blind passageway I’ll plug with a set screw with some Locktite thread locker.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wjVMVsY8/20191025-141038.jpg)



Here I’ve formed the acetylene gas inlets (the two small holes) and the air inlet to the immediate left of them.  Below the gas inet is the passageway into the cylinder and the small oval is the exhaust outlet.  A simple “D” valve controls access to these passageways.  This was exacting work, done with a 1/16th inch end mill.  The acetylene inlets are only .035 inches in diameter.  Doing this work was tedious and nerve wracking and it gave me an even better appreciation for the marvelous work George Britnell does on the “tiny” series of engines he builds.   
(https://i.postimg.cc/VkDsMQXz/20191025-155248.jpg)




I designed the valve specifically so that this “Back Plate”, and the “slide valve" and “Front Plate” I have yet to make, can be made perfectly flat and smooth so there is minimal leaking in the valve.

My surfacing machine is a relatively new addition to my shop and it and I are still getting somewhat acquainted.  With use comes familiarity and here I’m surfacing the face of this “Front Plate”.
(https://i.postimg.cc/v8fQh65q/20191025-164027.jpg)


Finally, a photo of the valve so far. 
(https://i.postimg.cc/HkxDqJ7C/20191025-165528.jpg)
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Alyn Foundry on October 26, 2019, 01:28:49 PM
My apologies for the digression Craig.

I'm just thinking about how complex that part would have been originally, all those cores to create the different passages.

Yours is a neat solution at such a small scale, and thank goodness for modern metalwork adhesives!

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on October 26, 2019, 01:55:22 PM
No apologies necessary Graham; as I stated above, any and all input is welcomed.

I was just thinking that if that piece (the "rack guide") were a casting it would just need the basic tapered outline; the secondary journal would still need machined regardless of how it was cast.  There would however need to be some provision made in order that it could be securely held while machined, and then that portion removed afterwards.  This is where guys like you, with your wealth of knowledge on pattern making probably know instinctively how to proceed, where I'd just be stumbling around in the dark. 
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: awake on October 26, 2019, 05:22:19 PM
Whew! Intricate work indeed, beautifully done!
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on October 28, 2019, 09:01:44 PM
Thanks for the comment Andy.  Also- thanks for those of you stopping by to see the build in progress.

I took a little side trip up to Western Carolina University yesterday.  Oystein Baadsvik, an international tuba soloist, was giving an artist recital at the University and the wife wanted to attend.  The trip was well worth the drive up and back and after hearing him there is no doubt in my mind that the tuba can be and is a solo instrument.  Also, the scenery was just gorgeous.  In case you’ve ever wondered why the Great Smoky Mountains are called such, I’ll submit this photo I took out the car windshield as proof.   
(https://i.postimg.cc/tgsZDtdZ/20191027-094002.jpg)


Now back to the build.  Today was a busy day and I made a lot of progress in making most of the remaining pieces for the slide valve assembly.   The day started with another fabrication with this 1/16th in end mill, cutting out the port in the slide member of the valve.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Yqyt8cdR/20191028-090940.jpg)


Then some shaping with the rotary milling head.  It’s capable of some really fine detail work (that's a 1/4 inch end mill in the photo) and I’m really fond of this tool, can’t ya tell?
(https://i.postimg.cc/qMNPJNGc/20191028-095014.jpg)


Then onto the surface grinder to get the valve slide nice and flat.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1tTLwPmV/20191028-101127.jpg)



Several other parts were made today but I won’t belabor the details, they were all fairly standard and routine.  What I will attempt to show is the operation of this valve.

In the photo below the valve slide is in its full upright position.  With the slide in this position the two acetylene jets have been opened as well as the air inlet to their immediate right.  Both these openings have been exposed to the opening under them which passes through into the cylinder.  With the slide in this position, the engine can draw air and fuel into the cylinder.  It will do this because the piston is also being raised a slight amount, resulting in a partial vacuum in the cylinder.   
(https://i.postimg.cc/FRf69qyr/20191028-102144.jpg)


Further in the cycle, the valve slide moves to its lowest position as in the photo below.  In this position the acetylene, air intake, and access to the cylinder have been shut off.  The engine will fire with the valve in this position.
(https://i.postimg.cc/tTLM75kh/20191028-102218.jpg)



At the end of the cycle, the valve is centered as shown below.  In this position, the port through to the cylinder is again exposed as is the vent for the exhaust.  This allows the piston to settle to the bottom of the cylinder and the spent combustion gasses to vent though the exhaust. 
(https://i.postimg.cc/mkC69HpK/20191028-102227.jpg)

I’ll note that the valve on the full size is much more complicated in that, while doing all the above, it must also allow for a fuel supply to be provided to an internal carrier flame (within the valve); it must allow for this carrier flame to be lit; and then that flame within the valve to be shut off from the atmosphere and exposed to the cylinder gasses so that the engine can fire.  You can imagine that the full size valve is ported much differently than I have done.

Below is a final photo with the valve mechanism sitting on a piece of scrap material.  It is complete with the exception of the bracket that connects it to the push rod that operates it.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QN160cSy/20191028-153708.jpg)
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: kvom on October 28, 2019, 11:33:04 PM
wrt breaking off the tips of center drills, I'd suggest using a spotting drill from now on to avoid that problem.
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Jasonb on October 29, 2019, 08:02:38 AM
+1 for spotting drills been using them for about 7yrs now and only use a ctr drill when I want to support work with tailstock ctr.
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: john mills on October 29, 2019, 08:15:39 AM
when I was at night classes learning CNC PROGRAMING we were told to use spoting drills  because centre drills break in those days we had to grind them because they worn't easy to get now they are available .most of the work i did was with hot work die steals i am certain centre drills would not survive . if some one tried they quickly would fail .when i was doing the programming or working on manual machines i have always had one set up in the machine,  over the last 40 years .at the start there was no cad  or cam programs viable to run at work machines run paper tape. I have always used 90 deg point .
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on October 31, 2019, 07:55:01 PM
Thanks for stopping by to see the progress on this model.

It looks like the tide has come in in favor of spotting drills.  I hadn’t heard of a spotting drill till your suggestions up thread.  Looks like I’ll need to acquire a few and retire my center drills, thanks for the suggestions.

I’ve been carving on this piece of cast iron over the past few days.  I won’t say it was a difficult piece to make, but it had its intricacies.  I finished it up today and below is a few photos of it.  This is the platform that sits atop the cylinder to which all the mechanisms are mounted.  I’m very pleased with how it came out and in retrospect I’m thinking using cast iron as opposed to aluminum was a wise choice.

This is the top view
(https://i.postimg.cc/65LBJ26H/20191031-150042.jpg)


And the bottom view
(https://i.postimg.cc/SRktWs0s/20191031-150055.jpg)


Time for an assembly of all the completed parts so far and sanity check, everything lines up as it’s supposed to.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rswNVtXS/20191031-152003.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/QdJgTb8p/20191031-152021.jpg)
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on November 04, 2019, 09:52:10 PM
Thanks for stopping by to see the progress.

I decided to step away from the platform and address the mundane task of making the sub-base which closes the cylinder on the bottom and holds the spark plug and ignition switch.  In the photo below you see this base and the hole threaded for a standard 14mm spark plug.  The model is upside-down in this photo.
(https://i.postimg.cc/KjbvBnvM/20191104-101811.jpg)


In the next photo below I show the ignition switch, activated by the slide valve through a push rod when it moves to the bottom position.  This switch is a momentary push button switch that closes to activate a buzz box to fire the spark plug.  All this is hidden in a wood base I’ll build for the model to sit on for stabilization and transport.
(https://i.postimg.cc/dt4tZZMh/20191104-101835.jpg)


Now back to the more interesting work.

I thought I’d go ahead and address the rack and rack guide.  I was originally thinking of making the rack guide out of steel but I’m cutting it with a woodruff keyway cutter and I realized that it would be easier to fabricate in brass and I’m thinking the brass will hold up just fine.

Yikes :facepalm:… have you priced brass lately.  I was aghast at the outlay of funds I’d need to purchase a chunk of brass :facepalm2:, but then I realized there was a nearly INEXHAUSTABLE supply of brass… possibly within my reach  O:-). 

Ok, this is on the QT; I’ll tell you but you’ve GOT to keep it quiet, ok?……..Ok?……. OK?.... good :whoohoo:.  Here’s the deal.  On the sly, I contacted Chris’s elves :embarassed: and asked if they’d be willing to pilfer some of Chris’s nearly inexhaustible supply of brass in exchange for a few mint chocolate chip cookies :LittleAngel: (those elves of his are really a push-over for mint chocolate chip cookies!).  And they said YES!!! :pinkelephant: :cartwheel: :whoohoo:

So the deal was accomplished on a dark, stormy, night :NotWorthy: and Chris NEVER SUSPECTED!!!! And he STILL doesn’t know. :o  So…. I’m not saying anything,  :-X the elves are sworn to secrecy, :-X :-X and if YOU don’t say anything (you won’t will you?), :-X :-X :-X Chris will NEVER KNOW!!! :cheers:

Anyway, with said piece of brass in my possession, I set about fabricating the rack guide.  Here’s a view right after I completed it.
(https://i.postimg.cc/B6TJSXcQ/20191104-133918.jpg)

Next, I’ll be addressing the rack.
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: crueby on November 04, 2019, 10:43:28 PM
...

Ok, this is on the QT; I’ll tell you but you’ve GOT to keep it quiet, ok?……..Ok?……. OK?.... good :whoohoo: .  Here’s the deal.  On the sly, I contacted Chris’s elves :embarassed: and asked if they’d be willing to pilfer some of Chris’s nearly inexhaustible supply of brass in exchange for a few mint chocolate chip cookies :LittleAngel: (those elves of his are really a push-over for mint chocolate chip cookies!).  And they said YES!!! :pinkelephant: :cartwheel: :whoohoo:

So the deal was accomplished on a dark, stormy, night :NotWorthy: and Chris NEVER SUSPECTED!!!! And he STILL doesn’t know. :o  So…. I’m not saying anything,  :-X the elves are sworn to secrecy, :-X :-X and if YOU don’t say anything (you won’t will you?), :-X :-X :-X Chris will NEVER KNOW!!! :cheers:

....



Those little swarf suckers!!!!  :hellno:   :cussing:    :censored:    :censored:


Now I have to confiscate thier little cell phones and change the password to the computer and router. Again.   :rant:




Sigh...


 :Jester:
Chris
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on November 05, 2019, 12:12:59 AM


Those little swarf suckers!!!!  :hellno:   :cussing:    :censored:    :censored:


Now I have to confiscate thier little cell phones and change the password to the computer and router. Again.   :rant:




Sigh...


 :Jester:
Chris

Man, I BEGGED you guys not to tell..... there goes my cheap supply of brass :'(
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: crueby on November 05, 2019, 12:20:34 AM


Those little swarf suckers!!!!  :hellno:   :cussing:    :censored:    :censored:


Now I have to confiscate thier little cell phones and change the password to the computer and router. Again.   :rant:




Sigh...


 :Jester:
Chris

Man, I BEGGED you guys not to tell..... there goes my cheap supply of brass :'(
Better go back to your shop. Didn't you have a lathe in there?....   :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on November 05, 2019, 12:34:12 AM

Better go back to your shop. Didn't you have a lathe in there?....   :LittleDevil:

Apparently confusion was in my favor.  When those little urchins made their commando raid in my shop they found TWO lathes, not having any clear direction on which to remove,  :wallbang: and since you confiscated their cell phones so they couldn’t get any clear updated directions :facepalm: ,they left with
neither.  :hammerbash:
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: crueby on November 05, 2019, 12:35:03 AM

Better go back to your shop. Didn't you have a lathe in there?....   :LittleDevil:

Apparently confusion was in my favor.  When those little urchins made their commando raid in my shop they found TWO lathes, not having any clear direction on which to remove,  :wallbang: and since you confiscated their cell phones so they couldn’t get any clear updated directions :facepalm: ,they left with
neither.  :hammerbash:
:facepalm2:


 :Jester:
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on November 05, 2019, 10:25:59 PM
Thanks, all of you who stop by to follow this build.

With the rack guide completed, I turned my attention to the rack itself.  After sizing the piece of steel, I spent the better part of the afternoon getting my mill setup to cut the rack.

I used the same procedure I used on the rack of my first Otto Langen, and I still had the jigs and mandrels left over from before.  I make no apologies for this somewhat bizarre setup.  There are probably better ways with different tooling and machinery, but you use what you have and This setup worked before and I had every confidence that it would work again.  I doubt it produces a precision rack with precision teeth; but it will be good enough for my use.

I’m using the right angle drive on my Bridgeport to drive a long mandrel with the involute cutter attached around midway.  On the far end of the mandrel is a ball bearing set in a jig that is clamped to the mill table.  While cutting a tooth, the mandrel rides in the ball bearing; when I index across to the next tooth between cuts by moving the mill table x-axis  , the mandrel slides through the bearing center.  Since I can’t use the Y axis on the mill table to pass the rack material through the cutter (the far end opposite the right angle drive is attached to the mill table) I’m using a little rotary table with X/Y axis movement. Locking the table so it won’t rotate and using the y-axis on that table to pass the work through the cutter head.

This setup produces lots of chatter so going slow is the word.  I get acceptable teeth on the rack when patience and slow going is observed.  Here’s a picture of the setup.
(https://i.postimg.cc/85tnmGTm/20191105-161332.jpg)

And below is a photo of the business end of things with the first few teeth on the rack cut.
(https://i.postimg.cc/V6VWNkYp/20191105-161346.jpg)
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 05, 2019, 11:03:01 PM
Clever set-up. I have thought different times about cutting a rack with my mill, but there is no X-Y feed on my rotary table.---Brian
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on November 06, 2019, 09:58:00 PM
Yep Brian; took some head scratching on the first go-round.

Thanks for those of you stopping by to see the progress.  There appears to be quite a few of you, the way the view count keeps climbing.

 
This afternoon was totally occupied with finishing the task of cutting the gear teeth on the rack.  This was slow, tedious going.  Cutting the teeth was only one of the issues; I also needed to make sure nothing was shifting out of alignment.

I don’t have much to show for an afternoon’s work; so I’ll bore you with somewhat redundant pictures.  Here is the setup upon completion of the last tooth cut.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FzGdKPgR/20191106-160926.jpg)


And a closer view of the actual work.
(https://i.postimg.cc/g2hzSSXZ/20191106-160943.jpg)


Finally I show you the rack with completed teeth.  I'm very pleased with the result.  The teeth are uniform and of a consistent depth, what more could you want?

Work isn’t done on the rack yet; I still need to cut channels for the rack guide and drill a hole where the rack mounts to the piston.  I’m hoping to get to that tomorrow.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3xZ8Qy18/20191106-162215.jpg)
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: crueby on November 06, 2019, 10:01:16 PM
Excellent - thats quite a long rack to cut.
 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Admiral_dk on November 06, 2019, 10:37:05 PM
Quote
Thanks for those of you stopping by to see the progress.  There appears to be quite a few of you, the way the view count keeps climbing.

I'm one of those who usually reads every post here on the forum and enjoying them all (some a bit more than others). Besides you're doing great on this build so far (we all have hiccups)  :ThumbsUp:

I was wondering about the progress from the first picture of the rack - but I can see that you have moved the clamps on the rack since.
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Kim on November 07, 2019, 01:51:24 AM
The rack looks very nice Andrew!
I've cut a few gears, but never a rack.  That's something I want to do someday.  Your setup is pretty interesting too!
Kim
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: awake on November 07, 2019, 04:25:19 PM
Great work on the rack! Quick question: what number cutter are you using? In the pictures it looks like the teeth have some of the rounded involute shape, but I always understood that a rack has straight-sided teeth. I doubt it will make a bit of difference in terms of your use of it, but just curious.

Now that I think on it - I believe the last cutter in the set is for some number of teeth up to a rack - as with any gear cutter, it is only the perfect shape for one particular tooth count of gear, but is an acceptable compromise for the others in the listed range. So maybe this is what I'm seeing - a cutter that is optimized for, say, a 100-tooth gear (don't remember the actual number!) but will work okay for a rack ...
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: awake on November 07, 2019, 04:26:49 PM
Excellent - thats quite a long rack to cut.

I suspect it was a nerve-wracking process!

:)
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on November 07, 2019, 10:07:20 PM
Chris, Per, Kim, and Andy; thanks for your comments.  Thanks also for those of you not commenting but stopping by to see the progress. 

Per: Yep- As long as you don’t loosen ALL the clamps :o, things stay in register. :ThumbsUp:

Andy:
I suspect it was a nerve-wracking process!
:)
Yes, making the “rack” was nerve-“wracking”- you did that on purpose, didn’t you? :) 
Cutter number one cuts a gear having from 135 teeth up to and including a rack.

The day started with profiling the non-business side of the rack to accept the rack guide.  On the full-size a dovetail pocket on the rack mates to a dovetail on the rack guide.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6qVkmf8L/20191107-124027.jpg)



I don’t have any tooling to accomplish that (although no doubt some of you folks could make some) and I went for a simpler approach… though I was back to using some fairly small end-mills again.

With the machining finished, here is a photo of the rack mounted in the rack guide.
(https://i.postimg.cc/JzzfpJMZ/20191107-124104.jpg)



And an end-on view to see how things mate.
(https://i.postimg.cc/LsrG4bf3/20191107-124134.jpg)



Now that I’ve side tracked myself away from working in the area of the cast iron platform I made a few posts back, I thought I’d go ahead and complete the piston and get it mounted to the rack and then check the alignment of the rack and rack guide with the piston inserted in the cylinder. 
Here I’m starting to work the piston material down to the required diameter.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fb0gPfFt/20191107-141925.jpg)


With the piston to the correct diameter, I’m cutting the groves for the piston rings.
(https://i.postimg.cc/P5C6LMd3/20191107-144646.jpg)



Then boring out the piston to the required internal diameter.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mgKm7FDb/20191107-160013.jpg)

And with the day waning I called it a day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBzJGckMYO4
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on November 08, 2019, 08:20:22 PM
Thanks for stopping by to see the latest progress.

Today was a day of running around so I didn’t get much time in the shop.  We’re expecting our first hard freeze here in North Carolina so I needed to stop procrastinating and go get my live steam locomotive

http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,8092.0.html

from the Railroad, bring it home, and prepare it for winter storage.  This involves mostly wiping it down, oiling everything that moves, and blowing residual water out the water lines; then removing the injectors and bringing them inside where they won’t freeze.

That took the majority of the day, but I did finish the piston as you can see below. 
(https://i.postimg.cc/8CpPTsRb/20191108-143453.jpg)
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Roger B on November 09, 2019, 07:25:34 AM
That's some excellent work on the rack  :praise2:  :praise2: A very interesting set up  :ThumbsUp:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on November 10, 2019, 01:05:14 AM
Thanks for the compliment Roger; thanks also for those of you stopping by the see the goings-on.

This afternoon I made the bracket that attaches the rack to the piston
(https://i.postimg.cc/x8z96mQ9/20191109-145051.jpg)


And then a shoulder bolt connecting the rack to this bracket that I don’t show. 

With this work completed it was time to assemble the model with piston, rack, and rack guide to see if the rack aligns in the rack guide and the rack and piston moves freely up and down the length of the cylinder without binding.  This was one of the pivotal moments in the build that tell whether you can move forward with the build, or you need to do a lot of re-fitting.  The rack MUST move freely in the rack guide or the engine will not run.

I wasn’t surprised when things didn’t exactly line up.  I needed to shim the rack guide .010 inches at the bottom and .020 inches at the top.  I was expecting to need to shim things a little and this was well within what I was thinking was acceptable.  Even the full size has shim stock to align the rack.  With the shims in place, the rack moves freely up and down; I’m quite pleased.

Below is a photo of the model with the piston at the bottom of the cylinder.   
(https://i.postimg.cc/28nZ6bWp/20191109-155202.jpg)

Ana another with the piston and rack at the extreme top of the stroke (we hope the piston never gets this high in the cylinder).  I have my 6 inch rule in a rack tooth, preventing the rack and piston from plummeting to the bottom of the cylinder.  Without piston rings, without the valve permanently installed, without a sparkplug, and without a gasket sealing the bottom of the cylinder it would freely do so.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FKHdDTBm/20191109-155256.jpg)
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: awake on November 10, 2019, 02:54:52 PM
Excellent! Congrats on getting it all lined up and moving smoothly. You are making great progress!

Andy:
I suspect it was a nerve-wracking process!
:)
Yes, making the “rack” was nerve-“wracking”- you did that on purpose, didn’t you? :) 

Me?? Surely not!

:)
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on November 11, 2019, 10:42:55 PM
Andy: Thanks for the compliment, and thanks for adding a little more humor to this thread. :ThumbsUp:

Thanks also to those of you stopping by to mark the progress.

Today I started making the piston rings.  The rings are made of cast iron and the model requires two of them.  If you’ve followed some my previous build threads, this procedure will look familiar to you… but with a slight twist that I’ll get to, when we get there.

I always make more blanks that I need rings.  Lots can go wrong and if you have some extra blanks, you don’t have to go back to the beginning and make more.  I usually loose one or two along the way and this build was no different.

The first step in making rings is to make the ring blanks.  These are thicker and wider than the finished ring.  Here I’ve faced off a piece of cast iron and I’m starting to work it down to the required OD.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3wkrkVqy/20191111-083316.jpg)


With the correct OD of the blank established, I’m working toward the required ID.
(https://i.postimg.cc/s2GyjSB7/20191111-090320.jpg)


And now parting off the individual ring blanks.
(https://i.postimg.cc/G20RH2YN/20191111-091000.jpg)


This is where the Otto Langen rings are a bit different than standard IC engine rings.  As you can see, the ring gap is cut on a diagonal; at least the original one’s I’ve seen are.  I’m doing this with the model too.  The diagonal ring gap must help seal the ring from gap leakage, especially as the ring wears.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Wz8cWwKL/20191111-093837.jpg)


Below, a photo of the completed ring blanks.
(https://i.postimg.cc/xTj2kBJ0/20191111-114252.jpg)


The first step in bringing these ring blanks to size is to get them to the correct width.  My surfacing machine was made for this kind of work.
(https://i.postimg.cc/nzt8nWff/20191111-123520.jpg)



As the ring gap is closed, the round blank is pulled out of round.  To machine the correct OD of the ring you need to make a fixture.  To use this fixture the ring is compressed so the ring gap is removed (I use a radiator clamp) and then the compressed ring is placed in the fixture and the clamp is drawn down tight onto the ring so it can’t expand back.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wM6SmsBW/20191111-135121.jpg)



Here’s a photo of a ring blank installed in the fixture, ready to begin working the ring blank down to the correct OD.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QNmLrS6v/20191111-143241.jpg)


I lost one of my blanks when the lathe tool picked an edge of the ring gap and pried the ring out of the fixture, shattering it.  I’m down to three but I only need two. Here’s a photo of the ring blanks so far.  They have the correct width and OD.
(https://i.postimg.cc/gjN1qkXG/20191111-140856.jpg)

The last procedure is to establish the correct ID.  For this you need to make another fixture.  I’ll be working toward that end tomorrow.
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: mike mott on November 12, 2019, 02:19:33 AM
Wow there is quite a lot of work to make these rings.

Mike
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: gbritnell on November 12, 2019, 04:13:06 AM
Great work on the rings? I only used this method once and now use the Trimble method most of the time.
They're both a lot of work!
gbritnell
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Roger B on November 12, 2019, 08:01:32 PM
Piston rings are fun  ::) I have my way which is probably not the best but it works for me. I use a heat treatment jig and a skimming jig. The Trimble system seems too hand skill dependant  :headscratch:
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on November 12, 2019, 10:00:26 PM
Mike If you think this was a lot of work, wait till you see this post :Doh:
George: I agree, lots of work.  I’ve never tried the Trimble method, probably ought to read up.
Roger: Yep, piston rings are a pain in the arse fun.  There seems to be a few different ways to make piston rings.  From time to time I hear of new ways/modifications to old ways.

Thanks for your comments; and thanks to those who just stop by to see the going-on.

Today I finished up the piston rings.  I didn’t break any more so I have one extra.  If you’ve followed my previous posts I’ve detailed making rings with this method before; however that was with rings with a “standard” ring gap, not one of these cut on a slant.  In those methods I used a “collet” type holder to compress the ring and hold it by the outside diameter while I brought the inside diameter to size.  I can’t do that with these rings because with the slant ring gap, the ring ends just slide by each other.

I’ve devised a different type of holder/clamp to use for these type rings which I show below.   
(https://i.postimg.cc/VNKM8xCd/20191112-143902.jpg)


The idea is to insert the ring into the fixture fully compressed, and then screw a ring clamp onto the fixture to hold the ring securely against the fixture while the inside diameter is brought to size.

Here you see the first part of the two part fixture in the lathe with a ring placed within it.
(https://i.postimg.cc/W3K9wWTf/20191112-144437.jpg)



And this photo shows the same fixture but with the ring clamp threaded onto it and tightened down, ready to begin bringing the inside diameter of the ring to proper size.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zf2pqtbX/20191112-144548.jpg)



This photo appears to be the same as above, but in it I’ve used a boring bar to bring the ring to correct inside diameter.
(https://i.postimg.cc/JnB3M1CP/20191112-150038.jpg)



In this photo, the ring clamp has been removed with the ring still in place.  You can see the ring is much thinner than in the third photo back. 
(https://i.postimg.cc/9MT9sJyk/20191112-150111.jpg)



Here I give a photo of the three completed rings.  Since I need only two I have an extra which is always handy in case I break one in installation.
(https://i.postimg.cc/PrqxwSPk/20191112-153126.jpg)



This is a photo with a ring inserted in the cylinder bore.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Z5MyR1cg/20191112-150224.jpg)



And finally a photo with both rings installed and the piston inserted in the cylinder.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y0dCPWDV/20191112-160047.jpg)



The piston slides fairly easily in the bore but no longer slides freely in the bore; there’s a bit of resistance that keeps the piston from dropping down to the bottom of the bore as it should.  I’ll need to oil the assembly and run the piston in and out some which should free things up.
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: awake on November 16, 2019, 02:19:09 AM
Great fixture to do the rings!

Sent from my Lenovo TB-8504F using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on November 16, 2019, 08:40:00 PM
Thanks for the comment Andy; thanks also to those taking the time to stop by and see the latest…

I’ve been whittling away on the uprights over the past few days.  These are the columns that sit on the platform above the cylinder and support the shafts and most of the mechanics.  In the full size they are part of the top casting but would be nearly impossible to fabricate in one unit without using castings on the model.

I designed some “style” to these; that style doesn’t exactly mimic the castings they represent but should carry the same “flavor”.  To implement this “style” is taking a bit of work but should enhance the finished appearance of the model; at least that’s the hope.

There is a left and right upright, both are unique to themselves. 

You have the start somewhere, so after I rough sized the material I drilled and tapped all the required mounting holes.
(https://i.postimg.cc/JznPSC0d/20191114-130116.jpg)



Here I’ve started rough shaping the left upright.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6QV20yws/20191114-131449.jpg)



Here I’m shaping the other side.  Looks like the same photo but not so because the uprights are not symmetric about the center axis.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XJRv6WnK/20191114-132748.jpg)



Now begins the tedious work of forming these reduced circumferences.  My rotary milling head made this job much easier than using a turntable.
(https://i.postimg.cc/GtPb0s7r/20191115-145120-001.jpg)



Here I show the right upright with the circumferences complete.  The drawing shows a lot more work is required before I can call this piece complete.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zvGxNspB/20191116-144556.jpg)



So you can see where I’m going with this, I’ve placed the partially formed left and right upright on the platform that sits atop the cylinder.  I still need to make the journal caps (which will get a similar “style” treatment as the uprights.  After they are complete and attached I’ll drill and ream the journal pockets.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QMNmcGGq/20191116-144728.jpg)
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on November 20, 2019, 09:48:00 PM
Thanks for stopping by to see the goings-on.

Over the past few days I’ve continued working on the uprights I started on the last post.  I haven’t shown any progress because it’s just been more of the same meticulous work; you'd see more milling but I'm not sure the end result would have been obvious.

I’m happy to declare that I’ve completed the work on these uprights and am ready to move on to the next phase… haven’t decided what that will be as yet, probably by tomorrow morning I’ll have some idea after thinking on it some.

Below I’ve included a few photos of the uprights, installed on the upper platform.

Below is a photo of the right upright; the more complicated of the two.  You can see the journal pocket for the main shaft in in the rear while the journal pocket for the secondary shaft is in the front.  The arm protruding out the front provides a pivot for the starter lever.  The Crossley Otto Langen, because of the way it’s constructed, can be started with a lever that rotates the inner core of the secondary shaft, cycles the valve and lifts the piston.  This allows the engine to fire without rotating the flywheel to start the engine.  I’m hoping I can reproduce this with this model.
(https://i.postimg.cc/PqGhq4gh/20191120-155323.jpg)

Below I provide another view; this view includes both the left and right uprights.
(https://i.postimg.cc/R0m88Dr3/20191120-155332.jpg)



Below, a closer look at the left upright.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1tnjNhwj/20191120-155350.jpg)


Finally I give you a photo of the assembly sitting atop the cylinder.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BZNK1LZR/20191120-155922.jpg)
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Dave Otto on November 21, 2019, 01:14:01 AM
Impressive work Craig!

Dave
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Johnmcc69 on November 21, 2019, 03:16:19 AM
 :ThumbsUp:
Very nice! That's a lot of work in there!
 :popcorn:
 John
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: awake on November 21, 2019, 12:46:11 PM
That is some intricate work, especially the right hand side!

Sent from my Lenovo TB-8504F using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on November 27, 2019, 04:27:25 PM
Dave, John, and Andy; thanks for your comments.  It’s GREAT to get comments.  (To everyone: I appreciate your opinions, words of wisdom, suggestions, etc. as much as the complements.  I’ll remind you that this is my hobby; it wasn’t my occupation so all the above from the more experienced  is welcomed. ) 

Thanks also to those of you that silently stop by to see the progress.

I haven’t posted an update for a while, but I have been busy.  I had to cut the thickness of the piston rings down  to get the piston to slide smoothly through the bore with minimum resistance.  Unlike engines with a connecting rod; with the Otto Langen the weight of the piston and rack must be sufficient to allow the piston to return to the bottom of the cylinder, yet still be able to seal the cylinder under pressure.  It’s a delicate balance.

I also cut the drive gear and attached it to the clutch I made WAY up thread; then made the drive shaft and bearing races.  Since the bearings on the main shaft are needle bearings the bearing races need to be hardened which I accomplished with some “cherry red”.  I then assembled the components as you can see in the video below.

At that point it was time to test to make sure the main shaft turned freely in the bearings, the rack engaged positively in the drive gear, and the whole mechanism would run freely without binding.  As you can see from the video, I’ve accomplished all that and I’m quite happy with the progress.

Rotating the main shaft in reverse engages the clutch and lifts the piston and rack.  The main shaft spins freely in the bearings and clutch in the forward direction and the piston will fall to the bottom of the cylinder (the bottom of the cylinder is open) engaging the clutch and rotating the main shaft.
   
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Lu9dnbRZsw
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on November 30, 2019, 10:47:00 PM
Thanks for stopping by to see the progress

I decided I would tackle the flywheels next.  They needed to be put on a strict diet  :Lol: to get them down to the size of Otto Langen flywheels.  Though the Otto Langen flywheels are large, they are somewhat spindly compared to those on the average hit-and-miss engine. 

Since the flywheels I purchased are much larger than needed, considerable material needs to be removed to get them down to a scale size. 

I mounted the casting on my faceplate and then removed nearly a quarter inch from the side of the casing.  I worked from the inside-out so I wouldn’t inadvertently catch the clamps holding the casting to the faceplate near the end of the cut.
(https://i.postimg.cc/qMsMCWGq/20191130-133340.jpg)



After reducing the thickness on the one side I reversed the casting on the faceplate and did the same to the other side.

With the flywheel to the correct width I worked on removing material, working the diameter down to the ten inches required.
(https://i.postimg.cc/d0pKf99g/20191130-153054.jpg)


I then drilled and bored the center hole for the axle and made a final pass on each side to profile the sides correctly.

The result is a flywheel that closely resembles the Crossley Otto Langen.  A purest might say the spokes are out of scale but I’m happy with the result.

Here you see a before/after shot of the finished flywheel and the raw casting together.  Now I need to machine the other of the two flywheels.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pTb68cCV/20191130-165156.jpg)
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: crueby on December 01, 2019, 12:15:17 AM
Well done - thats a lot of metal off!
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 01, 2019, 01:14:31 AM
Craig--You are doing a lot of nice work on an engine which I know very little about. I am following your posts with great interest, and kind of wishing you lived close enough for me to drop by and see your neat stuff.---Brian
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: awake on December 01, 2019, 01:50:22 AM
Wow, that flywheel went on a major diet! What's the weight before and after?
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on December 11, 2019, 06:20:54 PM
Andy, Brian, Chris; a rather belated thanks for your comments.  Also: Thanks for you who just stop by to see the doings.

There are two excellent reasons why this post is so long in coming.
Firstly: I’ve been sicker than a dog :(,,, if a sick dog could only be so unlucky. :o  I’m finally getting over the flu, and believe me when I say this… you don’t want it. :agree:
Secondly: I’ve really had nothing to do.  I needed some involute gear cutters to proceed.  I ordered the cutters over two months ago. Some were delivered while others were not :shrug:.  The vendor offered a refund for those missing… great but that doesn’t get me gear cutters. 
I guess some Bruce Lee fanatic felt them through the bag and thought they were some kind-of Chinese throwing knives or something. :lolb:
Anyway, with my money refunded I ordered them from Travers at over twice the cost but they showed up in two days.

Feeling somewhat better and with the needed tooling at hand I should be able to make some progress on this model soon, if the weather cooperates.

Before the bottom dropped out I did manage to finish the other flywheel; and I’ve built a stand for the engine to sit upon.  With the flywheels mounted it needed a proper stand.

(https://i.postimg.cc/d3Dr0wCh/20191211-130533.jpg)
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 12, 2019, 01:05:37 AM
Craig--Glad you are feeling better. There are worse things than a bad case of flu, but when you are that sick, it's hard to think of them. Engine is looking great.---Brian
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on December 14, 2019, 09:16:27 PM
Brian: thanks for the sympathy  ;D  Thanks also for those of you who silently stop by to see the latest…

The weather seems to have been particularly foul this last week which doesn't help progress on the model when your shop doesn't have permanent heat. Also, adding to the "zillion things to do before Christmas", it didn’t help that the battery in the truck suddenly gave up the ghost either… :Mad:

I did manage to get in a little shop time and used that time to make the secondary shaft drive gear.  This is a gear that rides on the main shaft and drives the secondary shaft where the pawl and ratchet (which time the valve and ignition events) reside.  With the completion of this gear, all the work with the main drive shaft is complete.

First I formed the blank on the lathe and bored it for pressing on the shaft; here you see the setup used to cut the drive gear; diametral pitch of 18 with 24 teeth.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3R0DMnQG/20191214-152133.jpg)


Next, I cut it off it’s arbor and then broached the key way.  Here is a shot of the gear installed on the main shaft and the main shaft reinstalled on the platform atop the cylinder.  The bevel gear which I made up thread, will drive the governor.
(https://i.postimg.cc/TwbhN1nq/20191214-154102.jpg)
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: tghs on December 14, 2019, 10:08:12 PM
the next week looks better weather wise,, gears look great..
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on December 16, 2019, 10:56:51 PM
Thanks for the comments.  Also, thanks for those just stopping by to see the goings-on.

Today was a lovely warm day here in North Carolina and I made the best of the day by spending the majority of it in the shop.  I got a lot accomplished, though to look at the progress you might wonder. :headscratch:

I got a good start on the secondary shaft and accouterments.  So you might get an idea of where I’m headed, below is an exploded view of the secondary shaft and all its attachments. 
(https://i.postimg.cc/CMjszL9q/ExplodedSecondaryShaft_1.jpg)

From right to left the parts are:
1- a shoulder bolt that operates the slide valve through a pushrod
2- the starter gear
3- the outside bearing (pink)
4- the secondary shaft driven gear. This gear meshes with the drive gear on the main shaft.
5- the ratchet (orange)
6- the mandrel and mandrel bearing (both blue)
7- the pawl group (all remaining orange parts)
8- the secondary shaft (brown)
9- the inside bearing (pink)
10 - the rack lift lever and pin (brown on far left)

These are a lots of fiddly little parts to make.
 


I got a good start today by finishing the secondary shaft, inside and outside bearings, the inside journal, and the mandrel and mandrel bearing.

Here I show the secondary shaft and the mandrel and mandrel bearing before pressing them together.
(https://i.postimg.cc/PJFcLXF9/20191216_150128.jpg)



Finally two photos of these extant parts assembled to the platform atop the cylinder.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mrRdg1gh/20191216_150918.jpg)




(https://i.postimg.cc/y6w2zdc3/20191216_150931.jpg)
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on December 17, 2019, 10:11:30 PM
I spent the afternoon finishing the secondary shaft driven gear.  Doesn’t seem like a lot to show for the effort but it is gratifying when the gear slides in place and meshes as it’s supposed to without unnecessary play and without binding.

I show a photo of the gear mounted on its mandrel which rides the secondary shaft. 

I’m thinking that while I’m in a gear making mode I’d go ahead and make the starter gear as well as the starter lever so those parts will probably be next on the agenda.
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Don1966 on December 17, 2019, 10:57:50 PM
Very nice work Craig and love the gear work!..... :cheers:



 :popcornsmall:
Don
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: awake on December 17, 2019, 11:03:23 PM
Great work!

Sent from my Lenovo TB-8504F using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on December 18, 2019, 10:14:00 PM
Don and Andy; thanks for the comments.  Thanks also for those who open this thread the see the latest.

I got out in the shop this afternoon and finished the starter gear.  I also got a good start on the starter lever; a peculiar looking lever that, once I complete it, I can hopefully show how it’s used to start the engine.

Just one photo today of the top of the engine with the start gear in place.

(https://i.postimg.cc/sDxb3RJr/20191218-163017.jpg)
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 18, 2019, 10:45:02 PM
Looking great Craig. Those are nice looking gears. Are they mod (metric) gears or are they DP?
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on December 19, 2019, 08:10:47 PM
Brian

The rack and drive gear are diametral pitch 14, the governor bevel gears are diametral pitch 32; the other gears are diametral pitch 18. (For those not familiar with gear terminology, the diametral pitch defines the size of the gear tooth, the larger the number, the smaller the tooth size).

The model was designed in imperial measurements, because that’s what I’m familiar with and that is the measurement system for my mill, lathe, and all my tooling.  I suspect you could use metric gear cutters; you’d just have to get the imperial to metric conversion with respect to pitch diameter right.  As you know (because you design engines too) the math can get pretty atrocious at times when you’re deep in the design.  I’m not talking calculus (haven’t done that stuff in 50 years) but the simple math and trig (just the sheer amount of it) can get tedious and one simple math error can cascade and wreak havoc in a design.  That’s why I always go over and over again a design before I start cutting metal.

With gear cutters as expensive as they are, my tendency is to stick with imperial measurements and try to build up a compliment of the several diametral pitches I commonly use so each new project doesn’t require a major outlay of funds to acquire more gear cutters.

Regarding the current project; the cold day precluded shop time so I spent the day working on creating many of the remaining drawings from the individual component designs in Alibre so as the weather permits, I’ll have drawings from which to build the remainder of the model.  I’ve created close to 100 drawings for the construction of this model which uses 73 different parts.  Some of the more complicated parts have several sheets to aid in construction.
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on December 20, 2019, 10:21:56 PM
Thanks for those of you who stop by to see the latest installment.

This afternoon I finished the starting lever.  Of course the engine can be started by rotating the flywheels but the Crossley folks added this little extra tidbit, I suspect because to rotate the flywheels requires rotating the load.  With the Crossley’s design the engine can be started without rotation of the flywheels.  Hopefully I can get to show you this once the build is far enough along.

I do have a few construction photos of the fabrication of this lever.  The source material was a convenient piece from the scrap pile so that explains its peculiar shape.

Here I’ve formed the “gear” end of the lever.  I used my rotary milling head to do the work you see here. 
(https://i.postimg.cc/ydh30zTp/20191220-123649.jpg)


Next it was time to form the teeth on the gear arc.  This gear arc mates with the thirteen tooth starter gear so the diametral pitch is 18 to match that of the starting gear.  A different cutter was used though because this gear arc is a portion of a 60 tooth gear.
(https://i.postimg.cc/R07ZDLnN/20191220-135545.jpg)

Next it was back on the mill;  the rotary milling head was used to form the profile of the lever.
(https://i.postimg.cc/VN8Yn0H1/20191220-145412.jpg)



Then standard milling was used to remove the remainder of the material.
(https://i.postimg.cc/28Lmt7sr/20191220-152231.jpg)



After a bit more forming and some filing, the lever was complete.
(https://i.postimg.cc/J7vCjBGg/20191220-162547.jpg)



Here you see the starting lever placed in its holder and just engaging the starting gear.
(https://i.postimg.cc/G2fVPZhY/20191220-162614.jpg)


And here the lever has been moved through about half of its travel.  The lever has ten teeth and when engaged with the starting gear which has thirteen, it turns the secondary shaft nearly three quarters of the way around.  That is enough movement to cycle the slide valve, lift the piston (drawing fuel into the cylinder), and fire the engine.
(https://i.postimg.cc/DwFvbbNh/20191220-162622.jpg)


Finally I give you a photo of the starting lever in its normal “rest” position.  This would be its normal location when it is not being used to start the engine.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FHst4bqY/20191220-162637.jpg)
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: crueby on December 20, 2019, 11:37:39 PM
Beautiful progress on a very complex engine, following along...   :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Steamer5 on December 20, 2019, 11:50:20 PM
Hi Craig,
 Just done a catch up ... & reread.......WOW!

Nice work, & great pics to go with it.  More  :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:


Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Johnmcc69 on December 21, 2019, 12:43:41 AM
Whispers from the background...
 Great work Craig! Pretty slick seeing a workable part come OUT of the "scrap" bin for a change. Of course it's not a "scrap" bin, it's just the use of the " roundtoit" bin.
 (Not that you have a large scrap bin, it's just neat to see a part jump out of it.)

 John
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: kvom on December 21, 2019, 01:27:14 AM
Slick job on that part :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: awake on December 21, 2019, 03:59:15 AM
Amazing work. The more I see what you do with that Volstro head, the more I want one!

Sent from my Lenovo TB-8504F using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on January 01, 2020, 09:33:48 PM
Somewhat belated thanks to Chris, Kerrin, John, Kirk, and Andy for stopping by with your encouraging comments.  Thanks also to those of you who take the time to  silently drop by to see the progress.

I haven’t posted on this project for a while but I have been busy.  Getting all the motion sorted out on this secondary shaft has taken some time and has required just a bit of redesign.  What looked good on paper didn’t seem to work as well as I’d liked in reality.  I seem to have everything sorted out now to my liking and I thought I’d make this post to bring you up to speed.

First I’ll give you a few catch-up pictures.

In this picture I’m just starting on the ratchet.  This is the gizmo that is fixed to the mandrel on the secondary shaft and helps control the cycling of the slide valve and ignition of the engine.  Both the ratchet and the secondary shaft drive gear are fixed to the mandrel.  This mandrel free wheels on the secondary shaft until the pawl engages the ratchet to carry the whole secondary shaft around.  Hopefully, the video at the bottom of this thread will help explain this operation. 
(https://i.postimg.cc/HkJVzy1s/20191227-140956.jpg)



Below is a follow-up photo of the ratchet, a bit further along.
(https://i.postimg.cc/NMyKJ2Hx/20191227-143341.jpg)


And below, a final photo of the completed ratchet (actually not quite complete; it still needs the keyway broached but I didn’t have the broach when I took the photo).
(https://i.postimg.cc/7h0N5Zqq/20191227-143704.jpg)


In this photo I’m starting on fabrication of the first part of the pawl.  Here I’m reaming the opening where the pawl will attach to the secondary shaft.
(https://i.postimg.cc/R0WpM9JZ/20191228-141029.jpg)


Below is a much further along photo of this pawl part. 
(https://i.postimg.cc/pLRpbX7K/20191228-143811.jpg)


In this photo I’m starting work on the second part that comprises the pawl.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mZ34xNG6/20191228-150914.jpg)



Moving to my indexing head I’m continuing work.
(https://i.postimg.cc/V6YRJ8dt/20191228-154835.jpg)


And here I’m nibbling away material I can’t really address any other way.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mgg11gwB/20191228-163908.jpg)


The remainder of the work was completed with the piece mounted vertically on the mill, using my rotary milling head.  This is a photo of the completed second part of the pawl mechanism.
(https://i.postimg.cc/DZpnD7Gd/20191230-132636.jpg)



Below is a picture of the components that make up the secondary shaft.  Some you’ve seen before while others are new.  Top left is the mandrel and to its immediate right is the ratchet.  Further right is the driven gear.  Both the gear and the ratchet are mounted on the mandrel and keyed to the keyway in the mandrel.  The mandrel rides the secondary shaft at the bottom of the photo.
At the bottom, far left is the starting gear which you’ve seen before.  To its right is a lift link that attaches to the secondary shaft and lifts the rack and piston.  Further to the right is the pawl mechanism.  Two brass bearings you’ve seen before fill out the parts list.
(https://i.postimg.cc/qvH0WbNY/20200101-102907.jpg)


In this video I’ve spun the main shaft and am letting the flywheel momentum carry the motion.  I’m holding the pawl and ratchet open, and in doing this the engine is just coasting.  When I release the pawl and allow the pawl and ratchet to engage, the secondary shaft is carried around and the starting gear on the extreme right spins.  When the build is complete this starting gear will actuate a connecting rod type pushrod that will operate the slide valve at the bottom of the engine.  To the extreme left of the secondary shaft the lift link raises the piston so fuel/air can be drawn into the cylinder.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VLO1zTrWxk


In this video I attempt to show how the starting lever can be used to start the engine.  It is interesting to note that the engine mechanism is cycled where the engine would fire, and this is accomplished without rotating the main shaft or flywheels.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MxXQCEUBzs
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Dave Otto on January 02, 2020, 12:23:32 AM
Lots of great progress Craig!
Coming along nicely.

Dave
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Admiral_dk on January 02, 2020, 01:25:23 PM
Looks like you got all those fidly parts working very nicely  :cheers:

Per
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Roger B on January 10, 2020, 02:47:51 PM
That's a few more complicated parts made  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:  :wine1: I'm still following along and enjoying  :)
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on January 13, 2020, 09:50:58 PM
Dave, Per, and Rodger; thanks for your comments.  Thanks also to those silently stopping by for your interest.


Since my last post I’ve added the two trip mechanisms that control when the engine cycles and I’ve been very busy trying to get the entire assemblage of parts that will operate the engine to work together smoothly.  One of the really big challenges is to get the pawl and ratchet to engage and disengage smoothly.  If everything isn’t “just right” the engine will run, but the pawl and ratchet won’t fully disengage, resulting in a “chatter” that is both annoying and also results in premature wear of the parts.  To get this to occur I need to add a few parts that aren’t in the full size but is pretty much what I did on my first Otto Langen I built to solve the same issue.

I give you a photo of the progress.  Unless you look closely you won’t see much difference from the previous photos.
(https://i.postimg.cc/grF3THMk/20200113-160459.jpg)

At this point, the model is nearing completion.  I need to install the slide valve and fabricate a push rod to operate it.  Then I’ll need to make and install the governor.

Below is a rather long (four minute) video of a description of the mechanism on the head and how it operates.  Depending on your internet speed it might take a while to load but I would think you might find it enlightening, especially if you have a heightened interest in the operation of these early non compression atmospheric driven engines.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxrn3DyBvl4

Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Kim on January 14, 2020, 05:03:07 AM
Yes, that' was a very interesting video, Craig, and a great explanation of a rather complex mechanism!
Thank you for taking the time to make and post it!
Kim
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: gbritnell on January 14, 2020, 12:14:40 PM
My thanks also Craig. I have seen these engines running at shows but never really had the mechanism explained. Very nice!
gbritnell
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on January 25, 2020, 10:22:40 PM
Kim and George; thanks for commenting.  Thanks also for those of you who take the time to stop by.

I’ve been working on the governor.  The folks at Kinzers wouldn’t let me disassemble the governor on the full size to see how it works   :shrug: (ok- In all fairness I would never have thought it appropriate to ask :slap: ) so I am free to design my own version :ThumbsUp:.  This I’ve done while trying to make it look (and function)  like the one on the full size.

Work has proceeded slowly since on some days the shop is just too cold to attempt to heat.  I also had a problem with the bearings I purchased.  I would be amazed if the full size uses ball bearings (were they even invented back then?) But I expect this little thing to spin around like the dickens so I thought i'd use them on the model.

I had bought these bearings a while back, knowing that the delivery time might be somewhat lengthy and I wanted to have them when I got around to the governor.  The problem was that I didn’t look at them when I purchased them. When I finally needed them and got them out I realized they were the wrong size.
I re-ordered them and when they were delivered they were again, the wrong size.  It turns out that Motion Industries has an error in their catalog.  They were kind enough to find ones that were the correct size and expedite the order for me at no additional charge so I’m not complaining.

At any rate, all this has held up progress on the model; however now I finally have a bit of progress to share with you.

Below is a photo of the first few parts.  The center post is the part below the quarter; it screws into the frame of the engine.  The two ball bearings reside on the center post and the rotator cylinder fits down over the bearings.  The two short threaded posts screw into the rotator cylinder. 
(https://i.postimg.cc/hP2JMYSt/20200124-152457.jpg)


Below is a photo that shows the assembly.
(https://i.postimg.cc/L81w9rQy/20200124-152800.jpg)



Next, a slider cylinder fits down over top of the rotator cylinder.  It’s slotted sides fit down over the pins on the rotator cylinder.
(https://i.postimg.cc/63g1xcLs/20200125-163327.jpg)


This final photo shows the assembly clearly.  The idea is that the whole contraption spins on the ball bearings while the slider cylinder can move up and down vertically as required.  Hopefully, all the function will become clearer as I continue to make more of the parts and show you the assembly.     
(https://i.postimg.cc/L5FBVb3s/20200125-163408.jpg)
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on January 27, 2020, 10:50:34 PM
Thanks for stopping by to see the going-on.

Work continued on the governor today.  I started with the weight hangers shown in the photo below. 
(https://i.postimg.cc/vmKPxWm8/20200127-142110.jpg)


Then I moved on to the weights and the slider cylinder cover.  The rotator cylinder pins (see previous post) weren’t quit short enough and were dragging on the cover.  I attempted to “fix” this by mounting the rotator cylinder in the lathe to take a few light passes across the pins to shorten them.  I should have known better and shortened them with a file because the lathe tool pulled one of the pins out of its mount in the rotator cylinder.  I screwed it back in and used a little red Locktite thread locker to re-attach it.  It’s drying now so I can’t show you the complete assembly so far.

I can show you the slider cylinder with cover and the weights attached to the weight hangers.  I’m not sure these are the weights I’ll end up using so I didn’t spend a lot of time on their finish.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8c4MMSbd/20200127-165759.jpg)


The governor weights are a lot lighter than I was expecting and I’m wondering (doubting) at this point that they will be heavy enough to dis-engage the pawl lockout.  Looks like a spring might be required.  I’ll see as the governor gets further along.  It’s one of those issues where things don’t always scale down appropriately; weigh diminishes by the cube proportional to the scale size.
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: awake on January 28, 2020, 03:16:48 PM
Craig, I am continually amazed by the intricacy of this engine and its parts - and your ability to produce them!
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Alyn Foundry on January 28, 2020, 04:26:20 PM
Hi Craig.

I've been looking in on your build from time to time, excellent progress.

Not being familiar with US currency I've no idea of the scale, but if it's of any consolation the 3/8" diameter balls on my quarter scale Hornsby Akroyd governor worked very well.

The photo was taken before the control linkage assembly was fitted. I found a picture of the other engine that was built by Dave Allen. The linkages and control assembly are fitted.

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on January 29, 2020, 09:54:22 PM
Andy and Graham; thanks for your responses/comments.  Thanks also for those of you who take the time to drop by.

The governor weights are 5/16th inch in diameter.  I can spin the governor by hand and it lifts as it should.  I need to make the lever that connects the governor lift arm to the lift shaft passing through the engine frame shown in the photo below.
(https://i.postimg.cc/t4YrVbQ6/20200129-162316.jpg)
I also need to make the governor driven gear and then mount the gears to the main shaft and the top of the governor.


Below is a photo of the rear of the engine.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fLj5hTXG/20200129-162339.jpg)

There are a few more odds and ends to work on before I can attempt the first start.
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: awake on January 29, 2020, 11:08:20 PM
First start - that is surely going to be a tremendous feeling of accomplishment, after so much work!
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on February 03, 2020, 10:41:07 PM
Thanks for commenting Andy.  Thanks also for those of you that take the time to drop by.

Progress is moving along nicely with the model.  I have the governor installed with the bevel gears spinning it nicely.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yUT_SJOYIU
Also, all the levers and what not required for the governor to operate the pawl/ratchet lock out/release have been made and installed.

Below is a short video of the governor locking out the pawl/ratchet from cycling and letting the engine take a power stroke.  When the flywheel RPM gets low enough, the mechanism is released. 
I’m holding “out” the “safety” that normally would be “out” were the piston at the bottom of the cylinder.  I have temporarily held the piston up because It is difficult to get the engine up to sufficient speed for the governor to lockout the mechanism when the piston is at the bottom of the stroke and the mechanism is cycling; repeatedly lifting the piston, trying to get the engine to fire.  Without fuel and spark that won’t happen. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2L_gQfn8RgY

With all this progress you would think that the model were complete but there are still a few a few odds and ends to address; still an attempted “first run” should not be too far distant.
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on February 06, 2020, 07:36:23 PM

I thought I had some 7mm pattern wire to use to connect the sparkplug to the coil but apparently I don’t.  I sent an order off to Starbolt and it should be coming along in a week or two.

I also have decided that I want to attach a short, heavy coil spring to the bottom of the platform at the top of the cylinder to prevent an overcharge from driving the piston hard against the platform and possibly damaging the engine.  This engine has a much shorter stroke than my other Otto Langen, and it has occasionally suffered that problem. (I thought I’d get a spring for it too while I’m at it).

While waiting for delivery of these purchases I’ve turned my attention to adding some of the details this scale model needs.  I’ve been keen to do this because, quite frankly, as I’ve been building this model and looking at it; it appeared to have a touch of the “ugly duckling” syndrome.  I wouldn’t call the full size an attractive engine (as compared to other types) so you might expect the model to suffer the same condition.
A week or so ago I painted the engine and that has helped it aesthetic appeal a lot.  Now I’ve been adding some details and replacing the hardware store nuts with brass model nuts; a little bright work always helps.  I’m quite pleased with the results.  I won’t say the “ugly duckling” has turned into the “swan”, but I believe the model has gained quite a bit aesthetically.

(https://i.postimg.cc/26bSWWwc/20200206-135444.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/SRbkzvjR/20200206-135513.jpg)
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Johnmcc69 on February 06, 2020, 08:26:28 PM
 :ThumbsUp:
 Looks great Craig! I like the black with the brass hardware.
 Nice job!

 John
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: awake on February 06, 2020, 09:11:39 PM
Urgh - I can't see the latest pictures. :( I'm not sure why, but sometimes they show up fine, and sometimes not.

On edit - the pictures show up fine on Tapatalk - and it looks great!
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 06, 2020, 10:52:12 PM
Very good looking! The changes are good.  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on February 13, 2020, 11:47:54 PM
John, Andy, and Zee; thanks for commenting.  Thanks also for those of you who stop by to see the latest.

It’s time to think about the electricals.  The full size uses flame ignition, but at this models size flame ignition isn’t possible so I’m using spark ignition.  With acetylene the fuel, I prefer a longer spark that a simple pulse magneto would give so, as I did on my first Otto Langen, I’m using a “buzz box”.

Rather than buy one, they are relatively inexpensive and easy to make.  The design I’m using has been floating around on the Internet for a while.  Below is the schematic.
(https://i.postimg.cc/s2YTyBjy/20200213-144305.jpg)


The heart of the electrics is a 5-pin, 12 volt relay as you’d find in auto applications.  You can pick these up (along with the socket) on eBay for under ten dollars.  The thigh-tension coil (on eBay) will run another ten to twenty, depending on how lucky you are; so the “buzz box” is pretty cheap to make.  I was worried about burning out the relay points so I bought a handful of them back when I built my first Otto Langen.  It’s run many hours and I’m still on the original relay so burning up the relay appears to be a non-issue.
Here is a photo of a 5-pin relay.
(https://i.postimg.cc/T1pMNjrC/20200213-144328.jpg)


And following is a photo of the “buzz box” in action.  As you can see, you get a good strong, continuous spark.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eF5OY6tgRuc
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on February 17, 2020, 10:05:34 PM
Thanks for stopping by to see the progress and I have some great progress to report: :pinkelephant: It’s running…. well, sort of.

I tried starting the model for the first time a few days ago and, unlike my first Otto Langen (which showed no signs of life for about a year), this one was firing immediately.  Mechanically, everything seems to be working as designed; all the mechanics cycle admirably.  Unfortunately at first it’s operation was so lethargic it couldn’t sustain running.

I’m using a “restrictor pipe” to control the amount of fuel the engine can draw and I immediately assumed it needed more fuel so I commenced drilling out the “restrictor pipe” and running the engine, hoping to see improvement.  It didn’t show any improvement so I continued to do this till the thing was blowing black soot out the exhaust, obviously I was going the wrong way.

I made a few new restrictor pipes since then, going from .025 inch diameter down to .020 inch diameter with marginal improvement.  I also removed one of the rings from the piston (with carbon in the cylinder, the piston was having a hard time settling to the bottom of the cylinder); and I’ve also increased the lift distance of the piston; increasing the amount of fuel/air the engine uses per stroke.

At this point the engine is sustaining running fairly well, but it still doesn’t “hit” hard enough to get up to speed where the governor will kick in and limit the power cycles.  Sporadically something funky is also going on with the valve cycle because it occasionally blows a bit of flame out the air inlet (kind-of exciting when that happens)

The engine is still running too rich: after several hours of fooling with it the cylinder is carboned-up where it really won’t run anymore, so cleaning is in order.  This is a clear indication the fuel/air mixture is too rich.  I’m using 1/4 PSI of acetylene pressure and a .020 diameter restrictor pipe; these things really sip fuel, probably leaking away more than they use.  I have a .015 inch diameter drill on order and when it comes I’ll make a new restrictor pipe and see if I can lean it out enough to get it to fire with enough power to get the speed up where the governor will kick in.  That could easily “fix” the flaming valve situation, when I get the engine to take a good long stroke so everything has time to cycle before the piston is at the bottom of the cylinder and tripping the pawl/ratchet for a new cycle before it even has a chance to come fully around yet.

All in all, I’m pretty pleased with the progress.  I didn’t expect this thing to run well right off and I’m delighted it’s doing as well as it is already.  Some “tinkering” and adjusting is to be expected.

With my first Otto Langen I made at least a half dozen videos of it, a new one every time I got it running a bit better.  With this model I’m thinking I’d like to get it running at least near right before I make a video of it for you to see so stay tuned and maybe success is just around the corner.
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: MJM460 on February 17, 2020, 10:23:47 PM
Hi Craig, that all sounds most encouraging.  Testament to your care and excellent workmanship in getting to this stage.  It has been a fascinating journey to follow. 

I hope that remaining little step or steps are not too far away.

MJM460
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: awake on February 17, 2020, 11:03:18 PM
Exciting! I'm eager to see it run!

Sent from my Lenovo TB-8504F using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Johnmcc69 on February 18, 2020, 01:10:10 AM
 :ThumbsUp:
 :popcorn:
 John
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Alyn Foundry on February 18, 2020, 11:19:18 AM
Hi Craig.

Your description of the " lethargic " combustion and soot definitely point to an overly rich mixture.

After a thorough clean may I suggest trying to use Propane? You might find that this particular model takes more kindly to it.

Another thought would be passing the incoming air through a Petrol/Gasoline " bubbler " and ignighting the vapour. This is something I did many years ago to run my little Leek atmospheric engine on. I used a trembler coil and plug in the same fashion.

Whatever the outcome, I'm eagerly awaiting the video.

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on February 24, 2020, 07:57:21 PM
MJM460, Andy, John, Graham; thanks for commenting.  Thanks also for those of you stopping by to see the progress.

Graham: I might try propane, but I’d need new plumbing, etc.  Time will tell.

It’s been a busy week trying this and that.  After receiving the drill I made a new restrictor pipe with a .015 inch internal diameter.  This really seemed to lean the engine out where it wasn’t loading up with carbon as before.  The engine still lacked power, running slower….. and slower…..and s  l  o  w  e  r  until it finally quit.

I though the solution to this was to increase the amount of fuel/air being drawn into the cylinder for combustion so I set about making a new lift arm with a longer throw.  Making the new lift arm necessitated making a new lift lever (that attaches to the rack) to match.  I saw some improvement but still no silver bullet. 

I ended up making a total of three more of these lift arms/levers till I got the engine taking a full stroke and running what I’d call well.  Enlarging the lift arm as much as required caused some interference with a few other parts which required a redesign of them; so all in all, it was a busy week.

The engine is running well, but still doesn’t speed up enough to run “on the governor”.  I’m thinking at this point that I’ll need a governor redesign, maybe going for a 4-1 gear ratio (as opposed to the 3-1 ratio I’m currently using) to get the governor up to a speed where it will control the engine.  Larger fly balls made of a heaver material than brass would help also.  So as you can see, there is a lot more fiddling with this thing to be done before I’m willing to call this model complete.

Still I thought a video might be in order, and we'll call this its first successful run:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoLoVxDdMhY
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 24, 2020, 08:17:30 PM
Craig--That is just wonderful!!! I have never seen an engine like that before.---Brian
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: awake on February 24, 2020, 08:29:58 PM
I'd call that a big success - looks like it is running very steadily at this point. Such an interesting engine!
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: crueby on February 24, 2020, 08:30:39 PM
Going great!! Those engines always fascinate me, that action is mesmerizing.
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Alyn Foundry on February 24, 2020, 08:45:28 PM
Very well done Craig.

She's a credit to you!   :)

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Kim on February 24, 2020, 08:46:01 PM
That is very cool!  I'd say its running great!
Kim
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: rudydubya on February 24, 2020, 08:49:46 PM
That's a beautiful runner, Craig.  My compliments.

Regards,
Rudy
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Jo on February 24, 2020, 09:28:00 PM
 8) That is running very nicely Craig.

Jo
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 24, 2020, 10:04:31 PM
I echo some of the comments about its action. Fascinating.

Great job!  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Alyn Foundry on February 25, 2020, 05:28:26 PM
Hi Craig.

I was recently poking through the photo archive from the Anson Engine museum, I spotted something you might be interested to see.

I recall you mentioned about the piston being " blown " out of the bore under certain overcharged circumstances.

The photo is of a 1 horsepower engine, note the plate that is bolted across the mouth of the cylinder. On others there are Rubber arrestors bolted to the sides.

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Dave Otto on February 26, 2020, 12:49:21 AM
Hi Craig, congratulations on getting the Crossley Otto running, that is quite an accomplishment!
Very nice work!

Dave
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: fumopuc on February 26, 2020, 07:17:51 PM
Hi Craig, it is always facinating again to watch this very special motion. Very well done.
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on March 09, 2020, 07:11:52 PM
Thanks Achim, Dave, Graham, Zee, Jo, Rudy, Kim, and Chris for your comments.  Thanks also for everyone else silently stopping by to see the progress.

It’s been an interesting two weeks.  As of the last posting I had two objectives to complete.  Firstly, I needed to clean up some of the parts that were roughly modified in order to get the engine to run fairly well.  There is no use in making and remaking parts as a “final” part when you just don’t know if the part you’re making will help (or hinder) the progress.   Secondly I wanted to get the engine running well enough and get the governor modified so that the engine would be controlled by the governor.  I succeeded in both these endeavors.

I’ve posted a rather lengthy video that describes the engine I am modeling and then the model itself.  The model is started and run in the back half of the video.  I start the engine with the starting lever and after a while, if you watch closely, you can see where it gets peppy enough a few times for the governor to lock out the firing cycle and allow the engine to coat a while before permitting it to again take power strokes.

I’m very pleased with regard to how this engine turned out.  When you design an engine you expect it to run but you just don’t know how well.  In that regard, this model has met all my expectations.

You can see the video here. 

http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,9603.0.html

My current plan is to go through the drawings one more time, checking for last minute changes and then package them up and make them available here on MEM to anyone who might want to try building one.
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Roger B on March 15, 2020, 12:06:26 PM
Just caught up with this thread, excellent and it runs  :praise2:  :praise2:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: Craig DeShong on March 16, 2020, 11:49:19 PM
Thanks for the complement Roger.

I’ll give you one more video before I close the book on this model.  It’s been getting some more running over the past few days and the cylinder/piston ring seal is improving so apparently the piston ring is seating.  I also found that spraying some WD-40 in the air intake seems to lubricate, break up the crud,  and help seal the cylinder really well.

The engine now runs, I would expect, much like the full size would without load. You can see in this video that the engine fires once and with that one power stroke gets the speed up where the governor locks the engine’s firing mechanism out from taking additional power strokes.  The engine coasts down until the governor unlatches, then the engine fires only once to get up to speed where the governor again takes control.

I’d think the model, at this point, is emulating the full size pretty well both aesthetically and in operation. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AeI8B2z-II
Title: Re: Crossley Otto Langen
Post by: kvom on March 17, 2020, 06:20:48 AM
I'm back from my 3-week Asia trip and find another nice runner.   :ThumbsUp:
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