Model Engine Maker
Supporting => Tooling & Machines => Topic started by: Mosey on July 12, 2013, 03:10:06 PM
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Anyone wish to suggest a nice way to hold dies in the lathe tailstock? 1"Round, Hex, etc.
TS is MT2 taper. :noidea:
Mosey
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Mosey,
All my tail stock die holders are to the same basic design:
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/Workshops_and_tools/IMG_1830.jpg)
The front is bored to suit the die, three grubscrews to hold the die and for larger threads I put a Tommy bar hole through. I know some people knurl the outside of their holders but where I often use these under power you don;t want a rough surface or anything sticking out to catch your fingers on ;).
They have a 3/8" hole down the centre so holding a piece of 3/8 in a chuck works, but for the smaller lathes like the picture above my Cowells I have dedicated adapters for the tailstock. I also have a massive tailstock die holder which has a much larger bore but normally use it with a 3/8" sleeve.
I did detail making these in one of my threads but I can't find it just now :shrug:
Jo
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I have basically the same thing as Jo. Mine has a 1/2 inch OD and 3/8 ID shank and I hold it in my tail stock 1/2 inch chuck. See if you can find something like this for the 1" die or if you have a large enough piece of stock on hand they are easy to make. Just alot of turning.
http://www.micromark.com/die-holder-for-tailstock-holds-13and16-inch-dia-dies-1and2-inch-shank,8210.html
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Check this one out on ebay. It is a nice setup.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lathe-Tailstock-Tap-Die-Holder-South-Bend-Atlas-/160950348638?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2579636b5e
Dan
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The only refinement to Jo's basic design that I can suggest is to make the die holder double-ended with a through hole. One end is bored for the smaller round dies, the other end for the larger. For my non-adjustable hex dies I simply bored a recess (in a second die holder) to accept the die and used the usual three setscrews to lock it in place.
[Aside: Before the usual discussion starts, there really are hex dies that are NOT rethreading dies. Sears, among others, sold them for many years.]
I'm with Jo on the absence of knurling - too hard on the hands. Rather than tommy bar holes, I made tommy bars that screw into the die holder. That way I can release the unit without having the bars drop on the lathe ways.
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RDG makes a nice unit with a MT2 shank....REF 1899 on their website
http://www.rdgtools.co.uk/cgi-bin/sh000001.pl?WD=1899&PN=BOXFORD_LATHE_USERS_NEW1%2ehtml#a1899
I bought one for the SB, and it fits well and seems well made.
Dave
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[Aside: Before the usual discussion starts, there really are hex dies that are NOT rethreading dies. Sears, among others, sold them for many years.]
Thanks Marv ! You made me look this up - I didn't know. I learned something today thanks to you!
Cheers Garry
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[Aside: Before the usual discussion starts, there really are hex dies that are NOT rethreading dies. Sears, among others, sold them for many years.]
Thanks Marv ! You made me look this up - I didn't know. I learned something today thanks to you!
Cheers Garry
Always pleased to help a fellow American.
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Thread chasers and threading dies. I remember my old millwright dad speaking of such. Haven't seen the two separated in the MSC catalogue , I don't think. Are we talking tool evolution here? More info Marv. Give us the real skinny 8)
Y'alls Redneck,
Eric
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I am currently making a tailstock die holder for my SIEG C3 lathe which have a 2MT tailstock arbor.
I started out from a blank end 2MT arbor and gave it a 12 mm "nose, then I made the arbor from a piece of brass bar ending up with a 16/12 mm tube 60 mm long.
(http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss219/H0n3/Tooling/TailstockDieHolder/TailstockDieHold-02.jpg)
I joined them using epoxy glueand finish turned to measure after glue was dry.
(http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss219/H0n3/Tooling/TailstockDieHolder/TailstockDieHold-03.jpg)
While waiting for more material to make the handle I turned up one of the holders as I needed to fit a die larger than my 25 mm hand die stock. This holder takes imperial 32 mm dies. The holder has a 25 mm register end for the handle and a 16 mm through hole for the arbor.
(http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss219/H0n3/Tooling/TailstockDieHolder/TailstockDieHold-04.jpg)
When placing them together it is easy to "see" the still missing handle.
(http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss219/H0n3/Tooling/TailstockDieHolder/TailstockDieHold-05.jpg)
I am working from the ideas of GHT as I will need die holder for both metric and imperial dies from 16 mm upwards. That makes 10 different sizes so far.
Just as an idea ...
BR
/Peter
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You need a die holder for every die that you regularly use plus one spare for all the sizes of die you own, that way you can set each die up in its own holder, set the depth of cut and they are ready to go as and when you need them ;)
Jo
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Here is a shot of mine that I made quite a few years ago; I have always wanted to adapt a drill chuck for running taps but just never have found the time.
Dave
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This is my lot:
(http://www.nam-engineering.com/cm/albums/userpics/10004/smaller-IMG_1441.JPG)
Not very pretty, but very effective. I needed turning practice when I made them, so made a dedicated holder for each of my M2 to M6 die nuts; they're single-sided and drilled and reamed through 12mm for a sliding fit on a section of 12mm silver steel chucked in the tailstock drill chuck.
Marv, as one of my mentors, questioned the dedicated holder per die nut approach back when I made them, but like I mentioned I needed the turning exercise. A couple of years later now, and I don't at all regret the time and material spent making the dedicated holders; it's saved me a lot of time not having change nuts when I need to use them. I just chuck up the silver steel rod in the drill chuck, slide over the holder with the appropriate die and start threading. Works well for both threading under power and manually.
As the holders are not fixed in any way to the tailstock, they can be run off the 12mm guide bar; in fact, that works great for making lengths of all-thread.
Yes - don't knurl them; I intended to when I made mine, but once again, after using them for a couple of years, it's saved a lot of wear on the hands. If you do feel you need some more grip, rather shape them more like a revolver's cylinder and add generous rounding to all the edges.
Like Marv mentioned, I made threaded holes for tommy bars in the M6 die holder - in the photo with two cap screws threaded in. Never got around to tidy that up and the cap screws are still doing duty, but its really handy for the extra torque needed for the bigger thread. The smaller threads are done easily by just grabbing on to the holder body.
It's also interesting to see how die nuts differ around the world... I also have hex nuts that are meant for full threading (South African made; pretty good quality), and the good German-made round nuts I actually prefer to use are not of the split (adjustable) type; In fact, I haven't seen adjustable nuts at any of my local suppliers.
Kind regards, Arnold
LOL - Three other posts added while I was typing up this post... I'll just leave it as another idea.
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It never fails on this forum...ask a question and you get an education. Nice.
Jo, I can't seriously consider a die holder for each discrete die, as that would be a drawer full, with US fine, US Coarse, Metric, Metric Buttress, BA, and the beat goes on. I only thread with dies when all else fails, as I consider the resulting threads to be inferior, based on my skill level, craftsmanship, etc. Single point when I need what passes in my shop for precision.
I do have a buggered up MT2 arbor, that I might use for this tool, if I can soften it enough to turn to my needs. Then I will copy Dave and others' fine looking kits, maybe a 1" and a few of the larger size heads to screw onto an arbor. I'll need to address the hex die issue somehow (buy the die-filer).
I wonder about running them from a drill chuck? Too many pieces. I think it better to just make up a holder shaft with interchangeable heads, and stick it directly into the TS. Please let the critiques fly without concern for my feelings, as I am still in the certified rookie class. As Marv says, "RMEM", "Rookie Model Engine Maker".
Mosey
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Just to add to the mix, here's one of my versions fitted to the t/s turret.
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That's a nice one Tel, do you have my correct address?
Mosey
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Hi Mosey
Typically the drill chuck arbors are not hardened; at least most of the ones that I have dealt with.
Dave
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Aha, I shall investigate turning them to suit with more energy. Thanks.
Now, the question is, how to hold it while turning.
Mosey
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Hi Mosey
For me this turned out to be pretty easy (no pun intended). My lathe spindle has a #5 MT and I just happened to have a #5 to #3 adapter; so it was just a matter of seating them in the spindle. The Jacobs taper was cut off and the shank drilled and reamed .500". then a .5" drill blank was loctited in place.
If I remember correctly the shank was put in the tail stock and the drill blank held in a collet to keep every thing in alignment while the loctite set.
Hope this helps,
Dave
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Yes, Dave, that sounds good.
I found that the arbor I have is hardened, so I will just start from scratch and turn what I need for a holder, taking the good points from the ones I see here.
Mosey
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Keep your eye peeled at swap meets for cheap, knackered MT drills. Almost always the tapered shank isn't hardened. Saw off the drill part and discard and drill the taper out to accept a shank which can be Loctited in place. Then all you need to make is the sliding cylinder(s) to hold the taps.
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I made a couple to fit in a drill chuck but ended up buying one of these in 2MT. It takes four different die sizes.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DIE-HOLDER-FOR-LATHE-TAILSTOCK-3-MORSE-TAPER-/230295343214?pt=UK_Home_Garden_PowerTools_SM&hash=item359eac106e
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yes, I got one of those from Chonos and it works well and only £29.
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Yes....if you look at my previous post, I believe RDG offers them for 22 pounds.....Honestly....I'd have a tough time making one for that price...and it appears nicely made.
If your State side...order from RDG directly, and not thru EBAY...or you will pay VAT when you don't have to.
Dave
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I rooted around in my scrap bin and found a buggered MT2 piece that I attempted to make into an end mill holder some years ago. So, I turned it into a die holder to fit my tailstock. All it now needs are the 3 setscrews to hold a die, and some gun bluing to make it pretty. The MT shank was a very nice fit for my tailstock, so I guess I did OK back when I made it.
Here is the finished die holder, with blued finish and setscrews. The tommy bar is temporary until I make a nice one.
(http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac290/sussna/Photobucket%20Desktop%20-%20Robert%20Sussnas%20Mac%20mini/DieHolder_zpseb92294f.jpg) (http://s908.photobucket.com/user/sussna/media/Photobucket%20Desktop%20-%20Robert%20Sussnas%20Mac%20mini/DieHolder_zpseb92294f.jpg.html)
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Yes....if you look at my previous post, I believe RDG offers them for 22 pounds.....Honestly....I'd have a tough time making one for that price...and it appears nicely made.
If your State side...order from RDG directly, and not thru EBAY...or you will pay VAT when you don't have to.
Dave
Same for you Aussies - the VAT off + the 5% loyalty card you get with your first order usually just about takes care of the postage.
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funnily enough i'm in the process of making some die holders for the peatol. Quite utilitarian in design. because it would have meant too much metal removal to turn from one piece, I opted to make them in 2 parts. the heads from 1 1/8" and the bodies from 5/8". I rough machine the head part, loctite together and then finish turn and drill 1/4" through for the support bar.
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z329/PEATOLUSER/TOOLS%20AND%20TOOLING/DIE%20HOLDERS/DSCF0508_zps242f8060.jpg) (http://s1184.photobucket.com/user/PEATOLUSER/media/TOOLS%20AND%20TOOLING/DIE%20HOLDERS/DSCF0508_zps242f8060.jpg.html)
just need to finish drilling for the grub screws.
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Just to complete the picture of my version of it, the handle bit is now finished.
(http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss219/H0n3/Tooling/TailstockDieHolder/TailstockDieHold-07.jpg)
It is very much GHT inspired, but I kind of liked that design. I also picked up a comment that knurling might be too much and also too tough on the hand. I therefore made 12 grooves across the main handle part (cut with a 4 mm ball nosed milling cutter) and together with the two radial grooves (cut wit a threading tool) I get close to a square pattern. After a few minutes with an emery paper in both forward and backward directions, the handle has a grip but is quite kind to the hand.
A 6 mm tommy bar hole completes the handle.
So, the assembled die holder looks as follows.
(http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss219/H0n3/Tooling/TailstockDieHolder/TailstockDieHold-08b.jpg)
I will make each individual die holder as I need them. There are other things to attend to in the meantime.
BR
/Peter
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Great looking bit of kit Peter. :ThumbsUp:
Whiskey
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Thank you Whiskey!
/Peter
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I got two holders in a job lot at an auction a good many years ago, the have hollow parallel shanks on them, so I hold them in the Jacobs chuck, and they have just two diametrically opposed grub screws, they seem to work ok, one is 1" size, and the other is a size smaller, can't remember what that is. Ian S C