Model Engine Maker

Supporting => Vehicles & Models => Topic started by: crueby on October 22, 2016, 08:42:05 PM

Title: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 22, 2016, 08:42:05 PM
Okay, its time for a big project, and next on the list is a running model of a Lombard Hauler, which was the first commercially successul vehicle with a track drive, back in the early 1900s. They were used in the northern woods (mainly USA, some went to other countries) to haul logs on sleds out of the woods to the sawmills and rail terminals. They were steam powered, using a locomotive style boiler and two double acting engines, one on each side, just like a locomotive, but rather than drive wheels that had a track mechanism on each side and runners at the front (runners could be switched to wheels for moving when no snow on the ground). Here are pictures of from the original patents of the engine and the track system:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5cpum7w93/LPI.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rpxl90x6v/LPII.jpg)
as well as a picture of one in use:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xbk0d2xvr/Lombard_Post_Card.jpg)

Note the steersman at the front - he could control the runners as well as an optional plow blade at the front. He could communicate via a bell rope or whistle back to the engineer in the cab. No brakes, so sometimes they had to bail out if control was lost.

The engines drove a shaft across the middle of the frame, which via chain drive ran a differential underneath
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xvz1frr47/slide0123_image178.jpg)
which had, on its output shaft, a pair of drive chains down to the tracks on either side
(https://s5.postimg.cc/b4pytd62v/slide0072_image135.jpg)
The tracks themselve look a lot like the modern tracks on a bulldozer or tank today, except that instead of the current system of sprung road wheels to support the middle of the track sections, they used a roller chain under a fixed plate
(https://s5.postimg.cc/y4wm5p3wn/slide0035_image037.jpg)

Those parts are going to be the most challenging to build - lots of interchangeable parts that need to be made. One thing going for me on this project is that there are several of these engines still running, and the Maine Forest And Logging Museum up in Bradley Maine restored theirs just a few years ago, and they have put up a TON of pictures, videos, and drawings on their website that is an absolute treasure trove of information, much more than is available for lots of old engines. They did a complete teardown and restoration of their engine, which is now in beautiful running order.
http://www.maineforestandloggingmuseum.org/lombards-in-bradley
If you go through thier site, you can see all the steps they took, with photo and video documentation along the way. A lot of the work involved students from the University of Maine, which also has lots of information. They have a lot of history of these engines, including vintage photos, and even the parts catalog from the manufacturer!

Given all that available information, I am going to make this as detailed a model as I can, though there will always be some details that need to be modified to make this a working model at a small scale. The tracks will all be made, and since the style of chain used in the drive is not available (at least that I can find) at this size, the drive and roller chains will also be made. I have found the same style of drive chain in model scales, but only in plastic, not in metal so far.

The model will be to 1" to 1' scale, which makes it approximately 30" long, 8" wide, and 10-1/2" tall. It will have a 3" diameter copper boiler, which will be a butane fired single-firetube style rather than the original coal/wood option, though I will model in the outer shell of the original style boiler's firebox, it will just have a gas burner inside it. It is a simaler scale (slightly larger) than my Shay locomotive, they should make a great pair. Unlike the Shay, since this one won't need tracks to run on (since it has its own), I can run this one out in the yard with the front runners replaced with wheels!

So, on to the build. I am going to be drawing up the parts as I go, starting from the ground up. The first part will be the track plates, of which I will need only 58 (plus a few spares). Here is a picture of what the real tracks look like,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/oqqolwnpj/slide0076_image141.jpg)
and here is my drawing of the plate shape:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ff4moyb5z/Track_Parts.jpg)
To make this many identical parts, it only makes sense to make jigs/fixtures wherever possible. For the model, the plates will be cut from 3/4" wide x 3/16" thick stainless steel. Each plate will need to be milled to proper length, then have the fingers along the sides milled in, the holes cross drilled, the ends of the fingers rounded, and finally the traction ridge in the center shaped. To do all that I have come up with a holding fixture that will let me position the parts for an operation, and put in one after another to do that one operation. It has two areas relief cut in, one to hold the part lengthwise and the other to hold it sideways. Here is the base plate of the fixture:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/uerxfolqf/IMG_8516.jpg)
and then the top plate that bolts down onto it:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ug1v93nk7/IMG_8517.jpg)
It has a couple of sets of holes to position it for the different operations. And here it is in action milling the first test blank to length:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/s001v95hj/IMG_8520.jpg)

Next up will be to spend some time at the big vise with the power saw and cut a boxful of the plate blanks out so I can start shaping them. Pictures to follow during that process...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on October 22, 2016, 08:48:57 PM
Wow, Chris!  I'm going to be following you on this one for sure!  :popcorn:

If you choose to put out a set of drawings, or even a book based on your build, I'll buy it from you!

You don't think small, do you Chris?  This is going to be fascinating!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Dan Rowe on October 22, 2016, 08:58:04 PM
This will be fun to watch.
Stock Drive Products has the smallest roller chain I know of. The price is a bit steep but making chain will be tedious.
https://shop.sdp-si.com/catalog/?cid=p303

Dan
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 22, 2016, 09:26:42 PM
Wow, Chris!  I'm going to be following you on this one for sure!  :popcorn:

If you choose to put out a set of drawings, or even a book based on your build, I'll buy it from you!

You don't think small, do you Chris?  This is going to be fascinating!
Kim
I will be putting up the drawings as I go in the build, maybe it will get pulled into a book someday (love to hire Kozo to draft it all!).

And no, I don't think small - have built a number of engines-only, and got to the point where I want to see them go around by themselves. Now I understand the thinking of the folks who build the traction engines and power wagons.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 22, 2016, 09:33:12 PM
This will be fun to watch.
Stock Drive Products has the smallest roller chain I know of. The price is a bit steep but making chain will be tedious.
https://shop.sdp-si.com/catalog/?cid=p303 (https://shop.sdp-si.com/catalog/?cid=p303)

Dan

I had looked at their chain, but the big difference on the roller chain on the inside of the tracks is that the center pins actually have rollers on them that protrude outside the side links, so that they act like a linear roller bearing race for the tracks.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/y4wm5p3wn/slide0035_image037.jpg)
I have not seen any small (or large) chain like that produced now.

The drive chain
(https://s5.postimg.cc/b4pytd62v/slide0072_image135.jpg)
is a different style that is still used, but have not seen it in model sizes outside the plastic chain that MicroMark sells, and I just cant see putting a plastic drive chain on a model this heavy, plus next to the boiler with all the heat and oil and hot water (which acetal plastic does not like). Actually, I did find the drive chain style is now made by one of the gauge 1 loco makers (Regner or Roundhouse, forget which) out of brass for one of their models, but the price for the lengths I would need are way high, since they have to hand make it too.
Yup, it will be a tedious thing to make, but the look and function will be worth it. I hope!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on October 22, 2016, 09:42:30 PM
Looking forward to the build Chris. I am sure you will do justice to this unique engine and it will be another fine addition to your collection.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: vcutajar on October 22, 2016, 10:27:29 PM
This is going to be another interesting build Chris.  Where did I put the popcorn?

Vince
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on October 23, 2016, 12:02:31 AM
Hey Chris

Good to see that you are getting started on the Lombard; what are you going to do after Christmas?  :lolb:
I will be following along with great interest.  :DrinkPint: :popcorn:

Dave
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: kvom on October 23, 2016, 12:07:12 AM
Quite a challenge.  In your shoes I'd likely send those track pieces out to be laser cut.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 23, 2016, 12:13:29 AM
Quite a challenge.  In your shoes I'd likely send those track pieces out to be laser cut.

By the last one I might agree!  One of my previous projects was a 74 gun French ship of the line. That didn't cure me of models with lots of the same parts. Quite. But almost!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 23, 2016, 12:15:34 AM
Hey Chris

Good to see that you are getting started on the Lombard; what are you going to do after Christmas?  :lolb:
I will be following along with great interest.  :DrinkPint: :popcorn:

Dave

By then I might be starting on the first chain, maybe. Gotta win some bets against the dshop elves so the have to make some parts..  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on October 23, 2016, 03:26:14 AM
 :whoohoo: I've been looking forward to this build Chris.

Excellent documentation to lay the ground work for this project!  :ThumbsUp:

Time to stock up on  :popcorn:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 23, 2016, 03:56:23 AM
:whoohoo: I've been looking forward to this build Chris.

Excellent documentation to lay the ground work for this project!  :ThumbsUp:

Time to stock up on  :popcorn:

Jim

We should all buy stock in popcorn makers, with all the  :popcorn: around the forum!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Captain Jerry on October 23, 2016, 04:21:10 AM
Wow!  This is going to be a great show.  I am happy to see you undertake the undercarriage parts yourself.  Just one track frame with sprockets and tracks would be a challenge for anyone.  You will surely produce a great model.

Tracks are an area of special interest to me since I spent a fair part of my life in the construction equipment industry, mostly involved with surface mining machines.  The biggest Caterpillar and Komatsu dozers are used in strip mining and the details of track maintenance and repair constitute a a major share of the operating expense for these huge machines.   Draglines and power shovels are also track mounted but they move material by swinging a long boom rather that pushing it around, track wear is less of an expense factor. 

Lombard's early track design  was much more like today's dragline or shovel tracks than they are like modern buldozers.  The track pads or plates of today's dozers do not incorporate a pivot pin.  They are bolted to links which are pinned together to form the track chain.  Lombard's later machines used this link structure but his original machines used pinned pads as you have shown.

There are some details of these pads that do not show up in your plan but may be critical in keeping the track in alignment under the machine.  These details can be seen in some of the photos and on other views of the manual.  I am talking about the four bars on the inside surface of the pad which form guide channels for the track rollers.  These are visible on view 81M of the pad.  There is also a large lug in the center that is engaged by the deep groove on the sprockets (#77 and 76 Lags on the manual page).  The shallow groove in the sprocket engages the roll #89 which is on the pivot pin but the deep groove engages the lug which is located on the narrow part of the pad in the center.

For a lightly loaded model, you can probably ignore the lug but  I think that the guide channels may be important.  It will need a thicker plate to start with the channels milled back to your working dimension.  I am pretty sure that the originals were cast. You will still want the deep grove in the sprocket to avoid contact with the shoe.   I can't help using current terminology for these track parts.  Today, we say pads or shoes instead of lags.

Jerry
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Perry on October 23, 2016, 12:55:34 PM
What a project! I'll be watching this one with great interest, steam engine coupled with chain tracks that so cool!
Regards
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 23, 2016, 01:40:55 PM
Wow!  This is going to be a great show.  I am happy to see you undertake the undercarriage parts yourself.  Just one track frame with sprockets and tracks would be a challenge for anyone.  You will surely produce a great model.

Tracks are an area of special interest to me since I spent a fair part of my life in the construction equipment industry, mostly involved with surface mining machines.  The biggest Caterpillar and Komatsu dozers are used in strip mining and the details of track maintenance and repair constitute a a major share of the operating expense for these huge machines.   Draglines and power shovels are also track mounted but they move material by swinging a long boom rather that pushing it around, track wear is less of an expense factor. 

Lombard's early track design  was much more like today's dragline or shovel tracks than they are like modern buldozers.  The track pads or plates of today's dozers do not incorporate a pivot pin.  They are bolted to links which are pinned together to form the track chain.  Lombard's later machines used this link structure but his original machines used pinned pads as you have shown.

There are some details of these pads that do not show up in your plan but may be critical in keeping the track in alignment under the machine.  These details can be seen in some of the photos and on other views of the manual.  I am talking about the four bars on the inside surface of the pad which form guide channels for the track rollers.  These are visible on view 81M of the pad.  There is also a large lug in the center that is engaged by the deep groove on the sprockets (#77 and 76 Lags on the manual page).  The shallow groove in the sprocket engages the roll #89 which is on the pivot pin but the deep groove engages the lug which is located on the narrow part of the pad in the center.

For a lightly loaded model, you can probably ignore the lug but  I think that the guide channels may be important.  It will need a thicker plate to start with the channels milled back to your working dimension.  I am pretty sure that the originals were cast. You will still want the deep grove in the sprocket to avoid contact with the shoe.   I can't help using current terminology for these track parts.  Today, we say pads or shoes instead of lags.

Jerry
Hi Jerry,

I had seen the guide channels on the inside of the pads in the photos on the museum site, but didn't know what they were for. Makes sense that they helped keep things aligned with the roller chain. It should be possible to mill them in though. There is enough thickness of the plate to do a shallow ridge there. Do you think that it will make much difference in a track that is only 5" long? That lug on the inside of the center post may not be as easy to do, may be able to do it with a ball end mill, have to experiment with that. Thanks for the information, this is my first attempt at making anything with tracks so it is all new to me! 

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Captain Jerry on October 23, 2016, 02:30:36 PM
Chris - I don't know that length makes much difference.  There are a lot of pin to pad holes that must be loose enough for the track to flex and it will flex right and left as well as around the sprockets.  I see a real challenge in drilling those pivot holes in the pads

The lug doesn't do much for track alignment but the guide chanels may be critical.  It is not unusual for a modern dozer to run out of a track if the track is not well maintained and adjusted.  Wear of the pivot pins and bushings causes the track to get longer but wear of the sprocket causes it to get smaller and eventually, the difference in pitch will let the sprocket climb out of the track.   This usually happens in a turn where there is a lot of side force.

You will not likely get enough wear to make a difference but unless you have enough clearance in the pivot pin holes, the track may be too stiff.  The Lombard  does not have a very tight turning radius and unlike modern dozers, it has a differential to equalize some of the forces.  If you run it on grass or snow there may not be much side force and you can run it with skis instead of wheels. 
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 23, 2016, 02:50:26 PM
Chris - I don't know that length makes much difference.  There are a lot of pin to pad holes that must be loose enough for the track to flex and it will flex right and left as well as around the sprockets.  I see a real challenge in drilling those pivot holes in the pads

The lug doesn't do much for track alignment but the guide chanels may be critical.  It is not unusual for a modern dozer to run out of a track if the track is not well maintained and adjusted.  Wear of the pivot pins and bushings causes the track to get longer but wear of the sprocket causes it to get smaller and eventually, the difference in pitch will let the sprocket climb out of the track.   This usually happens in a turn where there is a lot of side force.

You will not likely get enough wear to make a difference but unless you have enough clearance in the pivot pin holes, the track may be too stiff.  The Lombard  does not have a very tight turning radius and unlike modern dozers, it has a differential to equalize some of the forces.  If you run it on grass or snow there may not be much side force and you can run it with skis instead of wheels.
Good info, thanks!  I can see where the side loads on dozers can be much higher, especially when running one forward and one back, which the Lombard can't do, but still will be forces like that. It sounds like it would be a good idea to make up a few sections to test before making mass quantities of them.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Captain Jerry on October 23, 2016, 03:57:06 PM
Chris - Big dozers don't have the ability to counter rotate.   That is only on the smaller machines using hydrostatic drives.  Big dozers with mechanical drive  have a clutch and a brake for each track.  For a short turn, one track is locked by releasing the clutch and applying the brake.  The other track can run forward or reverse to swing the machine.  There were two big dozers that could counter rotate but I don't think it was used often.  The Euclid dozer had two separate engines and drive trains that could operate independently and the Komatsu 455 had one engine but two independent transmissions, one for each track.  Of course things may have changed a bit in the past twenty years.  John Deere has been using hydraulic transmissions  in bigger machines but they don't compete in the biggest class of dozers.

It never hurts to make a few test pieces to see where the sticky parts are.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 23, 2016, 06:20:07 PM
Chris - Big dozers don't have the ability to counter rotate.   That is only on the smaller machines using hydrostatic drives.  Big dozers with mechanical drive  have a clutch and a brake for each track.  For a short turn, one track is locked by releasing the clutch and applying the brake.  The other track can run forward or reverse to swing the machine.  There were two big dozers that could counter rotate but I don't think it was used often.  The Euclid dozer had two separate engines and drive trains that could operate independently and the Komatsu 455 had one engine but two independent transmissions, one for each track.  Of course things may have changed a bit in the past twenty years.  John Deere has been using hydraulic transmissions  in bigger machines but they don't compete in the biggest class of dozers.

It never hurts to make a few test pieces to see where the sticky parts are.

Never knew that about the dozers. Can tell you have spent a bit of time with the big machines - sounds like you need to model one...  :thinking:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Roger B on October 23, 2016, 07:26:04 PM
That's a fine challenge you have set for yourself  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp: I will be following along  :wine1:

One of this type of log hauler was featured in the German 'Maschinen in Modellbau'  magazine a little while ago.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 23, 2016, 08:04:17 PM
That's a fine challenge you have set for yourself  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: I will be following along  :wine1:

One of this type of log hauler was featured in the German 'Maschinen in Modellbau'  magazine a little while ago.
I was looking at their site for it, looks like a nice magazine. Do you know what issue it was? I looked in their archive but did not see it.
I have found old articles in the 1975/76 issues of Live Steam magazine, some good history mixed in there.

UPDATE: Found the article, it is in the March 2016 issue. It is actually about the Phoenix Hauler version. Lombard licensed the patents to another builder, who made the Phoenix version for a number of years. They were slightly different - they used a pair of vertical cylinders per side, looking more like a Shay engine, and the steering linkage angled back rather than straight down. Also the tracks were a little different, being a shaft/gear drive rather than the drive chain from the differential, and the roller chain took a different route. Same basic ideas, implemented a little differently. Now, if some one of you were to build a Phoenix at the same scale, we could have some nice races between them....

Thanks for the tip to the magazine, have to brush up on my German skills...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 23, 2016, 11:51:48 PM
Started in on the track plates, couple short sessions with the recip saw and got all the blanks cut to rough length, leaving a bit to square them up and trim them to exact length, making a good bin full:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/m1vvvvi87/IMG_8522.jpg)

Then started in on the mill, first I took a light pass on one end to square up the rough cut end. This went pretty quick - clamp in, back/forth on the table, stop motor and swap out for the next one, repeat for an hour...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bgc0jvbwn/IMG_8523.jpg)
That left the parts bin full of plates with one end done, then took a few minutes to take one down to exact length, and zeroed the handwheel at that position. Now, should be able to trim the rest in fairly short order, just need to make sure that no chips get in the slot when changing parts.
Here is how the plates will fit into the jig for working on the sides, using the wider section of the recess in the top of the jig:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8aretntaf/IMG_8525.jpg)
When I get to cutting the 'fingers' at the edge, I will first make slightly wider slots in the top surface of the jig so the end mill can project through the part a little and does not rub on the jig.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 24, 2016, 12:12:27 AM
Captain Jerry - Was taking another look through the piles and piles of photos they have up on the logging museum site, and found the picture set that shows the ridges you were describing on the inside of the tracks to hold the rollers from the lower chain in place:

https://get.google.com/albumarchive/111959800036861918331/album/AF1QipNNXIOUWoS_f5aig9hyvnSdLkBsJImiUwNzdagu (https://get.google.com/albumarchive/111959800036861918331/album/AF1QipNNXIOUWoS_f5aig9hyvnSdLkBsJImiUwNzdagu)

I will definitely get that detail in on mine - thanks!!

I still have lots of the albums from their restoration to sort through, it will be a constant process through this build I am sure. For those who are interested, here is the link to all the album sets they have from the students helping the restoration, tons of great details:

https://get.google.com/albumarchive/111959800036861918331
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Captain Jerry on October 24, 2016, 03:07:41 AM
I am sure that you will be happy that you are including the guide channels.  You didn't have to go that far to see them.  They are clear enough in your first post on this thread in the photo with the rollers.  That photo also shows the drive lug. That roller system is a very nice feature and though not used on later track designs looks like it would be very efficient.  It brings to mind the recirculating bals in a linear bearing system.

By the way, that same photo is also the only one that I have found that clearly shows that there are two roller chains on each track frame, four in all.  I was almost sure that there had to be but it took me more than a few looks at that picture before I spotted the inside rollers and chain, peeking through the spokes of the sprocket.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 24, 2016, 04:16:45 AM
I am sure that you will be happy that you are including the guide channels.  You didn't have to go that far to see them.  They are clear enough in your first post on this thread in the photo with the rollers.  That photo also shows the drive lug. That roller system is a very nice feature and though not used on later track designs looks like it would be very efficient.  It brings to mind the recirculating bals in a linear bearing system.

By the way, that same photo is also the only one that I have found that clearly shows that there are two roller chains on each track frame, four in all.  I was almost sure that there had to be but it took me more than a few looks at that picture before I spotted the inside rollers and chain, peeking through the spokes of the sprocket.

I had wondered early on about whether there was a roller chain on both sides of each track too, saw both in some of the photos and videos they have of the underside of the frames. It was interesting to see how different the Phoenix hauler track system is too, lots of changes there. I gotta make a trip up to the museum in Maine sometime...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on October 24, 2016, 05:02:49 AM
Hi Chris,
  :popcorn: :popcorn: oh and more  :popcorn:, plus  :DrinkPint: or two to wash it down with all sorted!

You don't let the grass grow under your feet! Once you get this finished any grass left growing at your place is going to be under threat!

Question for you..... How come you are not building a full loco style boiler, ie multi tubes but only a fire tube?

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: kvom on October 24, 2016, 01:03:52 PM
For display at shows, hopefully you'll be able to raise the model so that the tracks can be seen moving in place.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 24, 2016, 02:05:39 PM
Hi Chris,
  :popcorn: :popcorn: oh and more  :popcorn:, plus  :DrinkPint: or two to wash it down with all sorted!

You don't let the grass grow under your feet! Once you get this finished any grass left growing at your place is going to be under threat!

Question for you..... How come you are not building a full loco style boiler, ie multi tubes but only a fire tube?

Cheers Kerrin
The boiler burner is going to be one from a Gauge 1 supplier, as will the butane tank. I have that setup in a couple of locos, nice and simple both to build and to run. The original was fired on coal or wood, but for easy running, plus ability to run indoors at events, butane is a much better choice. The outside of the firebox will be shaped to look like the original but inside there will be the single burner into one larger firetube.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: RonGinger on October 24, 2016, 02:08:34 PM
In the 'Small World' vein, you found that some work was done at the University of Maine on the restoration. Brian Barker, who now owns the Mach3 CNC software business was at the U then and made the cylinder, Piston and rod, and some track rollers. I just told him about your project and he is interested. Why dont you come out to Maine for a few days, we can visit the museum and Brians shop.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 24, 2016, 02:10:00 PM
For display at shows, hopefully you'll be able to raise the model so that the tracks can be seen moving in place.

Oh yes! I did the same on the Shay, which sits on a trestle stand that I can put blocks on to raise the wheels just off the track. For the hauler, I may need a set of rollers to press the bottom of the track up so the bottom roller chain will move like it should too. For shows, the blowdown valve on the bottom of the boiler makes a good spot to bring in the air line.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 24, 2016, 02:16:08 PM
In the 'Small World' vein, you found that some work was done at the University of Maine on the restoration. Brian Barker, who now owns the Mach3 CNC software business was at the U then and made the cylinder, Piston and rod, and some track rollers. I just told him about your project and he is interested. Why dont you come out to Maine for a few days, we can visit the museum and Brians shop.
Wow! I was just looking at the pics and drawings of that work the other day! Great job on them.They posted the cad drawings of those parts, which will be very helpful to me when I get to the engine. I was hoping to get up there next spring or summer when they have an event with their hauler going. By then also enough should be built to show them the work. Is Brians shop in tnat area too? I'll be in touch!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Johnmcc69 on October 24, 2016, 06:08:27 PM
What a great project Chris! I'll be following this one closely!

 John
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 24, 2016, 09:52:29 PM
Couple sessions on the mill today, got almost all the track plates milled to proper length as shown in the earlier post, and should be starting the next step tomorrow - using a round-over mill bit to round the sides, which will become the ends of the 'fingers' in the track joints....

What a great project Chris! I'll be following this one closely!

 John

Thanks John - welcome to the party!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: RonGinger on October 24, 2016, 10:01:19 PM
Quote
Wow! I was just looking at the pics and drawings of that work the other day! Great job on them.They posted the cad drawings of those parts, which will be very helpful to me when I get to the engine. I was hoping to get up there next spring or summer when they have an event with their hauler going. By then also enough should be built to show them the work. Is Brians shop in tnat area too? I'll be in touch!


Well, by Maine standards we are all  pretty close, but Maine is a big place, and a couple hundred miles is no big deal. Its about 60 miles for me to Brians shop, and maybe 100 to the lumber museum, not in the same direction of course.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 24, 2016, 11:43:11 PM
Quote
Wow! I was just looking at the pics and drawings of that work the other day! Great job on them.They posted the cad drawings of those parts, which will be very helpful to me when I get to the engine. I was hoping to get up there next spring or summer when they have an event with their hauler going. By then also enough should be built to show them the work. Is Brians shop in tnat area too? I'll be in touch!


Well, by Maine standards we are all  pretty close, but Maine is a big place, and a couple hundred miles is no big deal. Its about 60 miles for me to Brians shop, and maybe 100 to the lumber museum, not in the same direction of course.

Of course, always in another direction! From here (western NY state) to southern Maine is about 7-1/2 hours - farther than it used to be many years ago when I used to drive up and back in a day for maritime antique auctions, don't want to try that one anymore!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 24, 2016, 11:45:24 PM
One more picture set for the day, the last of the plates are trimmed to length, and the setup is made for rounding the sides. Just a couple of those done so far, more next time...

(https://s5.postimg.cc/q8px2owlj/IMG_8526.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/jwarsutjb/IMG_8529.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on October 25, 2016, 12:06:57 AM
Just checking in Chris to see if this thing is running yet  :lolb:  Nice work on the track parts so far though!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 25, 2016, 12:09:51 AM
Just checking in Chris to see if this thing is running yet  :lolb:  Nice work on the track parts so far though!!

Bill

I didn't know you were actually Bill Nye The Science Guy, with your own time machine to look at the machine in the future!  :ROFL: How's it look? What goofs did I make that I can now avoid?   :noidea:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on October 25, 2016, 12:13:55 AM
Chris you just keep spitting these engines out bud. I have to ask, do you sleep? Always nice to follow along to some great craftsmanship........ :ThumbsUp:

Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on October 25, 2016, 12:16:33 AM
Chris,  I can assure you it looks perfect like all of your work does. You're gonna love driving it around the house or yard :)  which brings up a question...how your going to steer this thing...servo? or just let it go where it wants. Darn, guess I will have to fire the Delorean back up and go check that out...forgot to on the last visit  :lolb:

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 25, 2016, 12:47:09 AM
Chris you just keep spitting these engines out bud. I have to ask, do you sleep? Always nice to follow along to some great craftsmanship........ :ThumbsUp:

Don
Lots of sleep, I just get a lot more done on my own projects after retiring. Lots of hobbies, lots of fun!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 25, 2016, 12:52:34 AM
Chris,  I can assure you it looks perfect like all of your work does. You're gonna love driving it around the house or yard :)  which brings up a question...how your going to steer this thing...servo? or just let it go where it wants. Darn, guess I will have to fire the Delorean back up and go check that out...forgot to on the last visit  :lolb:

Bill

It will have an RC setup for throttle, fwd/reverse, and steering. Maybe whistle too. The steering link will most likely require being able to disconnect the steering wheel since it is gear reduced to the front axle. Fortunately the wood/coal box behind the cab will have plenty of room to hide both radio and the butane tank fir the burner. These days it is common to RC gauge 1 trains so no need to invent anything to control this one. It should scare the nuts off the squirrels!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on October 25, 2016, 03:00:32 AM
Chris,  I can assure you it looks perfect like all of your work does. You're gonna love driving it around the house or yard :)  which brings up a question...how your going to steer this thing...servo? or just let it go where it wants. Darn, guess I will have to fire the Delorean back up and go check that out...forgot to on the last visit  :lolb:

Bill

It will have an RC setup for throttle, fwd/reverse, and steering. Maybe whistle too. The steering link will most likely require being able to disconnect the steering wheel since it is gear reduced to the front axle. Fortunately the wood/coal box behind the cab will have plenty of room to hide both radio and the butane tank fir the burner. These days it is common to RC gauge 1 trains so no need to invent anything to control this one. It should scare the nuts off the squirrels!

Yes.............a whistle............for sure gotta have a whistle!  :ThumbsUp:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 25, 2016, 03:12:42 AM
Chris,  I can assure you it looks perfect like all of your work does. You're gonna love driving it around the house or yard :)  which brings up a question...how your going to steer this thing...servo? or just let it go where it wants. Darn, guess I will have to fire the Delorean back up and go check that out...forgot to on the last visit  :lolb:

Bill

It will have an RC setup for throttle, fwd/reverse, and steering. Maybe whistle too. The steering link will most likely require being able to disconnect the steering wheel since it is gear reduced to the front axle. Fortunately the wood/coal box behind the cab will have plenty of room to hide both radio and the butane tank fir the burner. These days it is common to RC gauge 1 trains so no need to invent anything to control this one. It should scare the nuts off the squirrels!

Yes.............a whistle............for sure gotta have a whistle!  :ThumbsUp:

Jim

That was one neat idea from the way Kozo designed the New Shay, the scale whistle would be good for calling dogs only, so he hid a much bigger one behind the engine to give it a deeper tone. Something similar should fit inside the frame of the Lombard, maybe even longer than on the Shay. Check the video from the Shay completed posts...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on October 25, 2016, 04:21:45 AM
This is a particularly nice whistle that should fit the Lombard.

http://www.nelsonslocomotive.com/Shay/MorePlumbing/PlumbingXWhistle/PlumbingX.htm

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 25, 2016, 04:49:56 AM
This is a particularly nice whistle that should fit the Lombard.

http://www.nelsonslocomotive.com/Shay/MorePlumbing/PlumbingXWhistle/PlumbingX.htm

Pete
It would be great to do a multi chime whistle like that one, the length is good, but I would have to make it a smaller diameter. The boiler is 3",  a 2" whistle would not fit because of all the drive gears and eccentric valve gear under the boiler. From the text, it sounds (pun!) Like a smaller diameter would make it less loud but same pitches, might be able to fit a 3/4" version, have to see what will fit. Smaller diameter would also need less steam to play, I would think.

Thanks for that link, it goes in the planning file!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 27, 2016, 12:43:20 AM
After a few hours (spread over a few days) of crank turning, all the track plate blanks have been trimmed to length and also had their sides rounded over with a corner-rounding end mill:
(http://s5.postimg.cc/mfjfq8y6f/IMG_8530.jpg)
They did not take much time each, but with 64 of them in the pile (58 needed, half a dozen spares) it takes a little while to get through them. Now on to a more interesting step - milling in the 'fingers' that interlock each plate into the next one. I was thinking of doing one slot in all, moving the table, doing the next, and so on, but realized that with the even spacing they have, all I needed to do was to carefully align for the first slot, zero the handwheels, and I could do all the slots for one side of the plate in one go. So, here is the first one (well, the second, actually, the first one needed a slight tweak to the starting position) with the slots milled in one side.
(http://s5.postimg.cc/ix7ftuxaf/IMG_8533.jpg)
As you can see, the center slot is deeper that the others - that will leave room for the tooth on the sprocket in the center of the track. Also, since I am milling these horizontally, the inner ends of the slots are round when they need to be square. That will be a second pass later, squaring up the slots with a verticall pass. I could have started with the vertical pass, but have learned from previous experience that doing deep passes like that with these small tip (1/8") end mills that they can flex and pull to the side, so I am doing this in two stages for a hopefully better result.
Before cutting the slots, I did go back and mill in a step in the end of the holding jig so that the end of the mill is not rubbing on the bottom on every part, can see that below the part in this photo (the step is full of chips at this point):
(http://s5.postimg.cc/sj10a5og7/IMG_8534.jpg)
I have made up the first couple to test and measure, here is the first one
(http://s5.postimg.cc/au99ijcp3/IMG_8535.jpg)
and the first pair test fit to each other
(http://s5.postimg.cc/wuplz5vd3/IMG_8536.jpg)
Once the slots are squared up, they will fit farther in, plus both of these parts had the same side milled. The second side, when done for real, will have the slots offset by one width, so that the edges of the tracks will line up with each other. As shown before, here is what the finished parts will look like:
(http://s5.postimg.cc/ff4moyb5z/Track_Parts.jpg)
So, first couple down, another 56 to go! Each one takes about 2 minutes to do, so I know what the next couple hours of shop time will be...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on October 27, 2016, 03:16:55 AM
Sounds like a job for the "Shop Elves" Chris.  :naughty: At least it looks like you're in for some bad wx up there = more shop time!

I'm enjoying this build.

Jim

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 27, 2016, 03:44:14 AM
Sounds like a job for the "Shop Elves" Chris.  :naughty: At least it looks like you're in for some bad wx up there = more shop time!

I'm enjoying this build.

Jim

Yup, need to leave a plate of cookies next to the plans and see if they get the hint! So far so good on the tracks, the jig is working well. Ordered a couple spare 1/8" end mills, they are going to be getting a lot of work on this build, tons of little parts to shape.

Going to get a half inch of snow tonight, will all melt in the morning. It better, am taking the convertible in for a new top on Friday!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: SteamR on October 27, 2016, 11:18:45 AM
Hello Chris,
the Lombard Steam Hauler is an impressive project.
May be the following information can support you.
A model engineer of the Netherlands has posted a lombard project in gauge 1 size on this platform: http://forums.mylargescale.com/18-live-steam/41562-lomberd-steam-log-hauler.html (http://forums.mylargescale.com/18-live-steam/41562-lomberd-steam-log-hauler.html).

He has his own web side with a lot of information of the original engine and a building log of his model here: http://www.depuffendeschoorsteen.com/lombard-steam-log-hauler-/ (http://www.depuffendeschoorsteen.com/lombard-steam-log-hauler-/).

Interesting is also this movie of a restored Lombard ride (w/ pressurized air only):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=633a6Bej5Ek
Finaly here is a movie of his model:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLaf3Us6Dxw

Hope you have fun with that information
Richard
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: kvom on October 27, 2016, 01:18:02 PM
One thing I noticed on the model in the video is that the lever (johnson bar) is reversed from normal locomotive usage.  I.e., lever forward sets reverse.  I wonder if that is intentional, or he just reversed the valve timing by mistake.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 27, 2016, 03:45:45 PM
Hello Chris,
the Lombard Steam Hauler is an impressive project.
May be the following information can support you.
A model engineer of the Netherlands has posted a lombard project in gauge 1 size on this platform: http://forums.mylargescale.com/18-live-steam/41562-lomberd-steam-log-hauler.html (http://forums.mylargescale.com/18-live-steam/41562-lomberd-steam-log-hauler.html).

He has his own web side with a lot of information of the original engine and a building log of his model here: http://www.depuffendeschoorsteen.com/lombard-steam-log-hauler-/ (http://www.depuffendeschoorsteen.com/lombard-steam-log-hauler-/).

Interesting is also this movie of a restored Lombard ride (w/ pressurized air only):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=633a6Bej5Ek
Finaly here is a movie of his model:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLaf3Us6Dxw

Hope you have fun with that information
Richard
Yes, I have seen his build, quite a nice job! The Maine museum included the link in one of their posts during the restoration. I've been in contact with the museum, they are running the engine for the last time this year on the 5th, but I cannot make it up there that weekend, definitely want to get there for one of the runs next year!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 27, 2016, 09:38:15 PM
Partway along the slots on the first sides of the track plates, 25 down about 35 to go...
(http://s5.postimg.cc/qxqbw33lz/IMG_8537.jpg)

These boring updates are where we need Zee back to chime in and liven things up! Best I can do is go get a couple of chocolate chip cookies to share with the shop elves in the meantime...   :DrinkPint:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on October 27, 2016, 10:15:49 PM
I can see where it could get a little redundant when you need an "In Bin" and an "Out Bin" for your parts!  :lolb:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 27, 2016, 10:43:17 PM
I can see where it could get a little redundant when you need an "In Bin" and an "Out Bin" for your parts!  :lolb:

Jim
It would be worse for Jo, imagine building THREE of these!!   :Jester:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on October 27, 2016, 10:54:24 PM
Hmmmm ... Your tracks are almost exactly the same size as the 64 pieces I have printed for a radio controlled excavator that must be nearly the same scale. I might have to "borrow" your drawings for the tracks as they are way more sturdy and realistic than the printed ones.

Tom
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 27, 2016, 11:14:57 PM
Hmmmm ... Your tracks are almost exactly the same size as the 64 pieces I have printed for a radio controlled excavator that must be nearly the same scale. I might have to "borrow" your drawings for the tracks as they are way more sturdy and realistic than the printed ones.

Tom

Did you make the rest of the excavator? I've thought about building one of those for a long time, but could not come up with a good way to control the arms/bucket without actual hydraulics.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Jo on October 28, 2016, 08:20:01 AM
It would be worse for Jo, imagine building THREE of these!!   :Jester:

The next model I have three to do has a total of 12 cylinders :facepalm:

It will be one at a time for a while  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on October 28, 2016, 11:11:15 AM
Hmmmm ... Your tracks are almost exactly the same size as the 64 pieces I have printed for a radio controlled excavator that must be nearly the same scale. I might have to "borrow" your drawings for the tracks as they are way more sturdy and realistic than the printed ones.

Tom

Did you make the rest of the excavator? I've thought about building one of those for a long time, but could not come up with a good way to control the arms/bucket without actual hydraulics.

This is the one I am doing.   http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:50110    It is all printed and I am in the process of making the fastenings and fitting everything together. The "real" R/C ones from Europe do have mini hydraulic systems in them and are all metal, so very heavy. The tracks on this one are very simplistic and since I am not so good with drawing programs, it would be easier for me to machine a set.

Tom
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 28, 2016, 12:21:00 PM
Hmmmm ... Your tracks are almost exactly the same size as the 64 pieces I have printed for a radio controlled excavator that must be nearly the same scale. I might have to "borrow" your drawings for the tracks as they are way more sturdy and realistic than the printed ones.

Tom

Did you make the rest of the excavator? I've thought about building one of those for a long time, but could not come up with a good way to control the arms/bucket without actual hydraulics.

This is the one I am doing.   http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:50110 (http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:50110)    It is all printed and I am in the process of making the fastenings and fitting everything together. The "real" R/C ones from Europe do have mini hydraulic systems in them and are all metal, so very heavy. The tracks on this one are very simplistic and since I am not so good with drawing programs, it would be easier for me to machine a set.

Tom
Thats a neat machine! The tracks are different in that the hinge point is on the inside with a wider lug, where on the lombard the pins are out at the surface. Changing that would mean changing the sprocket and follower wheels I would think. Its clever how that one has the servos right in the upper arms where the hydraulic pistons would be.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on October 28, 2016, 01:30:08 PM
You are right. After another look, I better stay with what is there.

That will be a neat way to weed the garden ... while sitting on the porch with cookies ... or stinking hoppies ... or something.

Tom
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 28, 2016, 02:45:18 PM
You are right. After another look, I better stay with what is there.

That will be a neat way to weed the garden ... while sitting on the porch with cookies ... or stinking hoppies ... or something.

Tom

Are the printed parts strong enough to actually dig?
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on October 28, 2016, 06:25:44 PM
You are right. After another look, I better stay with what is there.

That will be a neat way to weed the garden ... while sitting on the porch with cookies ... or stinking hoppies ... or something.

Tom

Are the printed parts strong enough to actually dig?

In soft dirt or sand ... yes. With a metal bucket, probably even in a bit harder stuff. Follow this link ... http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:50110/#files ...
Should be the list of the files for this machine. Second file from the bottom of the list ... work.mp4 ... it is a video of the machine digging.

Tom
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 28, 2016, 07:53:22 PM
I got on a roll today, and finished up the first side of all the tracks:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mskh7ac5j/IMG_8538.jpg)

So, on to the second side - shifted the starting position of the table over one slot width, worked out the new pattern (which has the ends a notch and a triple-slot in the middle to leave room for the sprocket to engage), and cut a test piece:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fdv5ewq9z/IMG_8539.jpg)
And test fit one of the other plates against it - fits fine!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/68msl1mvb/IMG_8541.jpg)
As mentioned before, note that the ends of the slots are now rounded, that will be squared off in a later pass with the jig swung up vertically. Once they are squared off, the plates will move in closer to each other. For now, another couple hours worth of slot cutting (each plate takes probably a minute per side, not bad but the quantity of them makes it take a while given rests to let the fingers/hands rest up).
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on October 29, 2016, 01:35:55 AM
That is a LOT of cutting Chris. The fit looks spot on though. This is one of those jobs where CNC would be nice but you are almost as fast in manual mode :)

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 29, 2016, 02:25:24 AM
That is a LOT of cutting Chris. The fit looks spot on though. This is one of those jobs where CNC would be nice but you are almost as fast in manual mode :)

Bill

Thanks Bill! Even with CNC you would have to stay there and change parts, clear chips, etc. Doing these manually really isn't taking that long, and the results are so worth it. The spacing is making it straightforward, 1/8 mill for 1/8" slot, fingers are 1/8" too, so start at zero, turn in/out 4-1/2 turns, move down 5 turns, repeat. For opposite side, reset zero at 2-1/2 turns over once, and same process again. Its only a couple hours of shop time for the whole set.
Things will get interesting when I get to the drive and roller chains. To reproduce them accurately to the original will take a lot of time, but those are the details I love in a true scale model. Like the details in this ship model...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on October 29, 2016, 03:00:17 AM
That is a LOT of cutting Chris. The fit looks spot on though. This is one of those jobs where CNC would be nice but you are almost as fast in manual mode :)

Bill

Thanks Bill! Even with CNC you would have to stay there and change parts, clear chips, etc. Doing these manually really isn't taking that long, and the results are so worth it. The spacing is making it straightforward, 1/8 mill for 1/8" slot, fingers are 1/8" too, so start at zero, turn in/out 4-1/2 turns, move down 5 turns, repeat. For opposite side, reset zero at 2-1/2 turns over once, and same process again. Its only a couple hours of shop time for the whole set.
Things will get interesting when I get to the drive and roller chains. To reproduce them accurately to the original will take a lot of time, but those are the details I love in a true scale model. Like the details in this ship model...

I suppose you knocked out that ship on coffee break!  :Lol:

Now that you posted the picture of that beautiful model.........we need more details about it......lots of details!  :)

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 29, 2016, 03:24:35 AM
That is a LOT of cutting Chris. The fit looks spot on though. This is one of those jobs where CNC would be nice but you are almost as fast in manual mode :)

Bill

Thanks Bill! Even with CNC you would have to stay there and change parts, clear chips, etc. Doing these manually really isn't taking that long, and the results are so worth it. The spacing is making it straightforward, 1/8 mill for 1/8" slot, fingers are 1/8" too, so start at zero, turn in/out 4-1/2 turns, move down 5 turns, repeat. For opposite side, reset zero at 2-1/2 turns over once, and same process again. Its only a couple hours of shop time for the whole set.
Things will get interesting when I get to the drive and roller chains. To reproduce them accurately to the original will take a lot of time, but those are the details I love in a true scale model. Like the details in this ship model...

I suppose you knocked out that ship on coffee break!  :Lol:

Now that you posted the picture of that beautiful model.........we need more details about it......lots of details!  :)

Jim

Okay, you want details, here are details!

Actually that one was built over a period of almost 10 years, it kept getting interupted with other projects, from carvings to full size sailboats. It is a French 74-gun ship, Napoleonic era. I was up in Maine on vacation and in a used book store came across a 4-volume set of books published about the 74 gun ship by the French national maritime museum. The books were large format, about 9"x12", couple inches thick each, and comprised a full set of plans for the ship, down to every timber. Almost every page is a fold-out sheet, very detailed - just amazing stuff. Small detail was that it was written in French, which I did not read or speak, but there was not a lot of text anyway, mainly part names which were not hard to translate. The model was built to the same scale as most of the drawings, it came out approximately 46" long, all scratch built (yes, 74 canon barrels, carriages, etc to make!). Partway through the project I found a set of the same books in English, and sold the French ones. Due to the size of the ship, I only built up to the top of the lower masts, otherwise it would have been so large that building a case for it would have been a bit impractical. It was set on a base like a launching way in a shipyard, and finished simaler to how an Admiralty model would have been done, with most of the hull planking omitted to show the construction details of the hull. The model was finished in 2007 - biggest one I have done to date (other than the 1:1 boats!). Needless to say I have been building ship models for a LOT more years than I have been building engines - started as a kid.

Here are a few more photos of it:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4jiaqpwjr/100_1114.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/4tpta2b5z/100_1014.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/jgm6dzkef/100_0994.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/l9tog1uyv/100_0995.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/7hf9kf47b/100_1013.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/gdq1ocutj/100_1014.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/6hoyopp1j/100_1021.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/u9ya08r2f/100_1034.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/f2iafvz7r/100_1078.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on October 29, 2016, 05:56:56 AM
Oh wow...........that's an incredible model Chris! Especially considering how you came across the plans.

Thanks for the details and pictures.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on October 29, 2016, 09:34:02 AM
DAM that's nice!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: fumopuc on October 29, 2016, 10:16:09 AM
Hi Chris, I do like your Lombard Hauler project very much. I will follow with big interest. I am also impressed by the "Shay" type concept of this hauler.
By the way, nice sailboat.
Lombard HaulerLombard Hauler
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on October 29, 2016, 12:17:38 PM
Some folk are just flat out good at everything they do! What a superb job on the ship! Gorgeous!

Tom
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: scc on October 29, 2016, 02:06:21 PM
A stunning ship model.... Well done indeed :NotWorthy:         Terry


(And I'm following along on the Lombard and loving that too.)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on October 29, 2016, 05:58:14 PM
Damn son you been busy! Quiet impressive work Chris with so much amazing talent. I will definitely be following along on this build....... :ThumbsUp:


 :popcorn:
Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Johnmcc69 on October 29, 2016, 06:33:12 PM
Superb work Chris! (on ship & Lombard)
 Any thoughts on the engine you'll use?
Will it be like the Shay or a horizontal type?

 John
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on October 29, 2016, 06:42:52 PM
Simply exquisite on the ship model Chris!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 29, 2016, 09:34:38 PM
Thanks guys! That kind of detail from the ship model is what I am hoping to do on the Lombard engine as well, considering the level of detail in all the photos and videos that the museum has posted about their Lombard - they have lots where they zoomed in on specific parts, with someone holding up a ruler to it. Can't get a whole lot better than that without having original factory blueprints (would kill for those!).
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 29, 2016, 09:38:40 PM
Superb work Chris! (on ship & Lombard)
 Any thoughts on the engine you'll use?
Will it be like the Shay or a horizontal type?

 John

I am going to try and replicate the one at the museum, which has the two horizontal engines. The vertical Shay-style ones existed in two places on these haulers:
1) The original prototype that Al Lombard built, he later switched to the horizontal engines for the actual production ones
2) The ones built by the Phoenix company under patent license from Lombard were all the vertical engines, and they also had a shaft drive to the track assemblies, and the tracks were laid out a bit differently.

Maybe someday I'll do the Phoenix variant as well, unless we can get one of you guys to model that instead!   :stickpoke:   There are also existing Phoenix engines still running, so there are good details on them too. Hint. Hint.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 29, 2016, 10:58:43 PM
Two reasons for this update, since I have had no shop time today anyway:
1) To show the first two track plates meshing better than the last update
2) To test out a different photo hosting site, PhotoBucket, which lots of you use. The one I had started with a couple weeks ago, PostImage, is having money/access problems with their internet provider, and according to their home page they may go under. So, I am being prepared by setting up an alternate hosting account, hopefully these two pictures come through okay. I hope PostImage stays, or I need to go back and re-link a few dozen pictures...

Again, as mentioned before, the slots in the links still will get another pass with the jig held vertical to square the bottoms of the slots so the parts fully mesh. Anyway, here are the test images...

(https://s5.postimg.cc/oi7ckkw07/IMG_8543.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/t2tizifpj/IMG_8542.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: PJPickard on October 30, 2016, 01:13:54 PM
WOW! Great project! This has been a dream model for me since, as a teen, I first saw them in Live Steam Magazine in the 70's. Do you have those issues?
Looking forward to more of this.

Paul
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: kvom on October 30, 2016, 01:18:00 PM
To paraphrase Mr. Natural, "keep on trackin!"   :old:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 30, 2016, 02:40:44 PM
WOW! Great project! This has been a dream model for me since, as a teen, I first saw them in Live Steam Magazine in the 70's. Do you have those issues?
Looking forward to more of this.

Paul
I had been looking for something special for a big build, and instantly fell in love with the Lombard on first seeing it in a post here not long ago.

I did some searching around two weeks ago and found the old issues of Live Steam magazine on ebay, where there was a 6 part article at end of 1975 and early 1976, great stuff.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 30, 2016, 02:41:47 PM
To paraphrase Mr. Natural, "keep on trackin!"   :old:

Lets see, rollin, rolling isn't right, how bout clankin, clankin!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 30, 2016, 03:38:01 PM
First batch of track parts with both sides having slots milled, gives a good idea of what they will look like. This is about the length of the track between centers of the sprocket wheels. Few more batches to go...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/nh73vgf0n/IMG_8544.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 30, 2016, 10:15:08 PM
And a few more batches done on the track plates, just 21 more in the bin to go.... Glad I made some extra ones, so far have botched 2.
Easy to get distracted and miscount turns when doing an odd pattern over and over. Easy to get distracted and miscount turns when doing an odd pattern over and over. Easy to get distracted and miscount turns when doing an odd pattern over and over....!!   :ROFL:

(https://s5.postimg.cc/5gxwr2mtj/IMG_8545.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/uo8srbpxj/IMG_8546.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on October 30, 2016, 10:30:18 PM
As they say over in Nashville : "Now that's putting down a track"  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 30, 2016, 10:33:08 PM
As they say over in Nashville : "Now that's putting down a track"  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Cletus

Maybe I should take them outside in the mud and "make tracks"!!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on October 30, 2016, 10:40:16 PM
And a few more batches done on the track plates, just 21 more in the bin to go.... Glad I made some extra ones, so far have botched 2.
Easy to get distracted and miscount turns when doing an odd pattern over and over. Easy to get distracted and miscount turns when doing an odd pattern over and over. Easy to get distracted and miscount turns when doing an odd pattern over and over....!!   :ROFL:



Take a break Chris, have a drink even...It doesn't pay to get yourself into a rut... :lolb:

The tracks look GREAT though!!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on October 30, 2016, 10:41:01 PM
As they say over in Nashville : "Now that's putting down a track"  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Cletus

Maybe I should take them outside in the mud and "make tracks"!!

You might want to wait until they are all hooked together; otherwise you might loose some.  :lolb:

Looks very nice BTW.


Dave
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 30, 2016, 10:44:48 PM
And a few more batches done on the track plates, just 21 more in the bin to go.... Glad I made some extra ones, so far have botched 2.
Easy to get distracted and miscount turns when doing an odd pattern over and over. Easy to get distracted and miscount turns when doing an odd pattern over and over. Easy to get distracted and miscount turns when doing an odd pattern over and over....!!   :ROFL:



Take a break Chris, have a drink even...It doesn't pay to get yourself into a rut... :lolb:

The tracks look GREAT though!!!

Bill

Mmmmmm.... Cookie!     :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 31, 2016, 02:42:42 PM
Still on track, clanking along on the plates....

Got the rest of the slots cut this morning:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bkfhazd3b/IMG_8547.jpg)
so it was now time to flip the holding jig up vertical and square the bottom of the slots
(https://s5.postimg.cc/my20m6nlz/IMG_8548.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/lx1rx26mf/IMG_8549.jpg)

This goes pretty quick, not removing much material, just the arc at the bottom of the slot. As you can see, the plates fit closer together now with one side squared off:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6cue6iwhz/IMG_8550.jpg)
which is more evident when looking at one group (top row) with the slots squared off and another before that is done (bottom row)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rb55iclqf/IMG_8551.jpg)
So, I will crank through the rest of the slots in the next couple shop sessions. The deeper center slot will be done after the rest are done, so I don't have to keep resetting the depth of cut. After all the slots are squared up, it will be time to drill the pivot holes...

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on October 31, 2016, 06:29:26 PM
Damn nice looking tracks there Chris. I would have to say your right on track bud ........ :ThumbsUp:

Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on October 31, 2016, 08:34:56 PM
Boy,  that's almost one of those optical conclusions.  I kept looking for what you squared off ; it's on one side and not the other  :thinking:

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 01, 2016, 01:48:03 AM
Boy,  that's almost one of those optical conclusions.  I kept looking for what you squared off ; it's on one side and not the other  :thinking:

Cletus

That pattern can make your eyeballs spin! No driving for ten minutes after staring at it!   :Lol:

I have half the parts done on the one side of the plates, once the rest are done I'll do the same to the second side of each track, so both sides  of all will be squared off. The longer slot will also be squared off. This step goes quick, with so much metal to remove. The holding jig is working perfectly, totally worth making.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 02, 2016, 12:53:15 AM
Got some time this evening, now that we are past Halloween and I can put away my shop elf costume, and finished up squaring the slot bottom ends on the first side of the rest of the track plates:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dnz3a4rnr/IMG_8552.jpg)
Here is what they look like so far closer up:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/a5n3dqqrr/IMG_8553.jpg)
Next is to do the slots on the other sides of the plates. So, moved the starting postion of the mill table over by half the slot spacing, and started milling the other side - here is the test plate with the first two slots milled. Note that this plate is the one I have been using for testing setups, so the second slot from the right on the right has a goof in it, leaving a step.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ktqucl0qv/IMG_8554.jpg)
And here is the first good plate with the second side milled:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/72mdadbt3/IMG_8558.jpg)
And the first three up to that stage - note how they fit together much farther.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tda8ac93b/IMG_8557.jpg)
And so begins another couple hours of shop time in the next day or so...!   :hellno:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 02, 2016, 02:30:37 AM
Looks like you're keeping this project on "track" Chris!  :lolb: Hopefully you won't get dis......"track".....ted! Hey..........someone had to say it!

Jim

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 02, 2016, 02:42:03 AM
Looks like you're keeping this project on "track" Chris!  :lolb: Hopefully you won't get dis......"track".....ted! Hey..........someone had to say it!

Jim
The project is gaining track-tion...   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 02, 2016, 09:09:59 PM
More done on the track slots, got the rest of the shallower slots squared up today, and started on doing the deeper center slots, here is a picture of the first handful...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/g1lmevvgn/IMG_8561.jpg)
This part goes quite quickly, one more session should have this step all complete, ready to start drilling for the pivots, tomorrow.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on November 02, 2016, 10:31:36 PM
Now,  that's much better on my eyes . I don't feel like Sunday morning at Woodstock  :lolb: :lolb:  Nice work  :ThumbsUp:

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 02, 2016, 10:41:45 PM
Now,  that's much better on my eyes . I don't feel like Sunday morning at Woodstock  :lolb: :lolb:  Nice work  :ThumbsUp:

Cletus

If you go back to that earlier picture and stare at it long enough, you will see a sailboat... Or barf...   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 02, 2016, 11:40:39 PM
I went in to do some more, and flew through the rest of the center slots - just doing one in the same position on each went very quickly (more time spent changing parts than milling them). I think you guys put some magnets in my fingers though, had to stop frequently to pull teensy little splinters of steel out of the pores - ouch! 

So, went through the setup for the pivot pin drilling, and did the first couple holes, starting on the test/spare pieces. The first one was a little off, made a minor adjustment, and the position looked good so I drilled two plates, starting with spot drilling
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ykzwsjf2f/IMG_8562.jpg)
and then drilling through with a 3/32 bit:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/x789x8ft3/IMG_8567.jpg)
Having the slots there makes the drilling go easily, no need to back out to clear chips every couple turns, just some oil on the bit and it went right through.

After test fitting a piece of the 3/32 rod that will become the pivot pins, and finding that it was too tight a fit, I redrilled with a #41, which is 2 thou larger, now it is a nice slip fit, and will let the plates hinge easily.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/o0pz9yakn/IMG_8568.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/gys1nr6yv/IMG_8569.jpg)

Enough for one day, some excellent progress - more tomorrow...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on November 03, 2016, 12:17:38 AM
Excellent progress indeed Chris.   :popcorn:

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Captain Jerry on November 03, 2016, 04:14:04 AM
Jaw dropping!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on November 03, 2016, 10:01:52 AM
Now you just need some advice from Steamer on proper dirt - trackin technique.

Tom
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 03, 2016, 01:11:50 PM
Now you just need some advice from Steamer on proper dirt - trackin technique.

Tom
So I can get the Lombard in a two-track drift on the corners?! New version of sprint cars, 30 haulers on a dirt track...  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 03, 2016, 01:37:44 PM
Now you just need some advice from Steamer on proper dirt - trackin technique.

Tom
So I can get the Lombard in a two-track drift on the corners?! New version of sprint cars, 30 haulers on a dirt track...  :Lol:

I'm thinking that might be about as exciting as watching the "snail" races!  :lolb: More noise though!

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 03, 2016, 05:25:06 PM
Now you just need some advice from Steamer on proper dirt - trackin technique.

Tom
So I can get the Lombard in a two-track drift on the corners?! New version of sprint cars, 30 haulers on a dirt track...  :Lol:

I'm thinking that might be about as exciting as watching the "snail" races!  :lolb: More noise though!

Jim
And they're coming around the third turn.....
......
Yup, the third turn..
.....
Here they...yawn...come...
 :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on November 03, 2016, 06:17:04 PM
 :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 03, 2016, 09:01:13 PM
Starting to look like tracks now - got the first couple dozen plates drilled,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qarvpxnnr/IMG_8570.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/7whclybd3/IMG_8571.jpg)
and just had to link up a handfull to see how they look
(https://s5.postimg.cc/t7ewq7thj/IMG_8572.jpg)
Could make a watchband, though a really heavy, non-stretchy one!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/y7ccy5z47/IMG_8573.jpg)
Here is a bit more of how they will look
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7njrw0ykn/IMG_8574.jpg)

So, on to more drilling....

Though while I was working on the tracks, apparently the shop elves where building their new toy. Hope I don't hear it clanking around all night, or I might have to Delete him...   :Lol:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/69s50pzbb/IMG_8575.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 03, 2016, 09:57:36 PM
Playing with the tracks, a bit stiff to flex, went back and went up a drill size, much better! Will do the rest with the larger size.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 03, 2016, 11:07:35 PM
This is a great build. I am following along. I have thought different times about making some kind of tracked model, but the sheer volume of work in making the tracks has kept me away from one.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 03, 2016, 11:12:49 PM
This is a great build. I am following along. I have thought different times about making some kind of tracked model, but the sheer volume of work in making the tracks has kept me away from one.---Brian
They seem like a lot of work, but with the right jigs it actually goes right along. I've been doing about 1/2 hour sessions a couple times a day, too long at once and the repetition causes mistakes as my mind wanders off into another room.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 05, 2016, 11:59:31 PM
Milestone reached - all the track plates are drilled for the pivot pins and test fit together:
(https://s5.postimg.org/3jzunwttz/IMG_8576.jpg)
They flex nice and smooth, and can roll them around using fingers as end sprockets. That is quite enough drilling/deburring/smoothing for now, time for a cookie!
  :whoohoo:
Next up will be milling the shapes in the surfaces of the plates for the rollers on the inside, and the traction ridge on the outside. Then I can figure out how to do the ends on the pivot pins...

Some of the things that the brain works out while doing all this repetitive crank turning: milled nearly 16 linear feet of slots, 7 feet of holes drilled, 28 feet of corners rounded over, 7.5 feet of plate ends squared up... Yikes! 
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on November 06, 2016, 12:14:49 AM
That is quite a nice watch band you got there Chris, A bit heavy perhaps but nice!!  ;)  Looking forward to seeing what is up next.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 06, 2016, 12:18:53 AM
That is quite a nice watch band you got there Chris, A bit heavy perhaps but nice!!  ;)  Looking forward to seeing what is up next.

Bill
Not very stretchy either!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on November 06, 2016, 12:22:54 AM
How much clearance is there now with the larger sized pin holes? Interested to see how you will retain them in the tracks.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 06, 2016, 12:34:53 AM
How much clearance is there now with the larger sized pin holes? Interested to see how you will retain them in the tracks.

Bill
The holes are a few thou larger than the pins - lets them pivot easy, plus gives the assembly the ability to flex a bit. The pins will be peened over at one end, then a washer held by that. The pin is slid through the track, then another washer, with a cotter pin to hold it on. At least that is pretty much how the real thing is made, I think they welded or forged the disc on the inner end rather than peening it. I will need to make a little clamp bar to peen over the ends to without bending/marring them, and also a drill jig for the cross hole for the cotter. I've seen other builds here that used the drill jig method for centering small holes in round bar, this will be my chance to try doing the same.

Here are a couple pictures of the real thing:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/y4g7xdz9j/lombard20.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/elbmo10hz/lombard18.jpg)


Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on November 06, 2016, 12:47:55 AM
That's really cool Chris!  Its almost like completing a project on its own!  But I can't wait to see the rest unfold.

I'm still in line for those plans!  And the book :)

Kim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 06, 2016, 01:04:37 AM
That's really cool Chris!  Its almost like completing a project on its own!  But I can't wait to see the rest unfold.

I'm still in line for those plans!  And the book :)

Kim
Thanks Kim! Its always a good feeling when a subassembly comes together enough to move. And I am toying with writing up a book of plans/build on this project, since it is such an interesting cross of locomotive, traction engine, and bulldozer. There is a fair amount of information out there, but it is scattered among articles, books, and websites - I was not even aware these existed till a couple of months ago, and was instantly enthralled by them. I was not able to visit the museum in Maine for the last run this year, but am planning to go there in the spring - only a 9 1/2 hour drive from here, but worth it!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on November 06, 2016, 01:07:25 AM
That is one heck of a cotter pin!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 06, 2016, 01:13:32 AM
That is one heck of a cotter pin!!

Bill
Or a very very small finger...!  Always wanted to get one of those giant penny paperweights to put in the photos.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: vcutajar on November 06, 2016, 12:24:33 PM
WOW. Lovely job on the tracks Chris.

Vince
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 06, 2016, 01:43:58 PM
WOW. Lovely job on the tracks Chris.

Vince

Thanks Vince!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 06, 2016, 02:04:56 PM
With the pivot holes done, its time to move on to the shaping of the inner and outer faces of the tracks. The inside face has a recessed groove down either side for the roller chain to run along (thanks to Captain Jerry for pointing that detail out, I had missed it when laying out the part originally). On the outside, there is a ridge down the center that gives the track more track-tion. I will start with the inside groove, since once the outside ridge is cut the plates wont lay flat in the jig. There is also a lug at the center of the plate on the inside that engages with the sprocket wheel between the pivot bars - I am not sure if I am going to include that detail, I need to spend some more time with the pictures of the real tracks to figure that detail out.

So, on to the milling. With the holding jig back down flat, and the plate held lengthwise, I put in a 5/16" end mill (worked out perfectly for the groove size), and set it for a 0.025" deep cut. One pass back/forth, and the groove is done, same on other end of the plate and on to the next part... Repeat for the next hour...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fzwkhnn5z/IMG_8581.jpg)
Here is what the first couple look like, the ones behind them are not grooved yet.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ad07k6knb/IMG_8582.jpg)
And the first track's worth grooved - time for a break, will come back and do the other half of the plates later. They go quick, about a minute per plate.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/91sgbpp1j/IMG_8587.jpg)

For you guys with the Sherline lathe/mills, one side upgrade I have been wanting to do on the mill was to change out the original handwheels (2" diameter with zero resettable dials) with the larger 2-1/2" version, which I already had on the long axis on the lathe. It does not seem like a big difference, but it makes a big difference when do a lot of cranking - easier to turn, better fine control. But, I had been choking on the price - $42 apiece for a simple chunk of aluminum. While stocking up on the metal needed for this build, I had found a 3' offcut of 2-1/2" aluminum round bar at a very cheap price, so I cut off some discs and made up the two handwheels. The dimensions for the narrow end where they dial is were copied from the originals, a simple handle on a pivot was added, and for about $2 in materials the new handwheels were done - work very well. Here are a couple pics of the old and new handwheel. If you are using the smaller ones, I highly recommend making up the larger set.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/hhi0t7rwn/IMG_8583.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/k03ptwdmv/IMG_8584.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: RonGinger on November 06, 2016, 03:15:27 PM
How about a power feed for the Sherline? My idea is to drill and tap the center of the handwheel for an allen cap screw with a 1/4" hex hole. Locktite that into the handwheel, then use a battery powered screwdriver with a hex driver. Just pickup the screwdriver, place it into the allen screw and drive the wheel either way.

I bought a very neat screwdriver to keep on my bench with a countersink in it to debur holes. I found one (Dewalt I think, its yellow and black) that has a gyroscope in it- you place it in the screw and just slightly twist your wrist in the direction you want it to turn- there is no for/rev button to press, just twist your wrist. It works in any direction, pointed straight up, or down or however you need to hold it. It has proven to be very useful.

A power feed is not just easier, it gives a more constant speed and nicer surface finish.

How are you going to finish all those track pieces? I think a short ride  in a tumbler would give them a perfect texture and knock off all the sharp corners. They would look a lot like the original castings.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 06, 2016, 04:20:51 PM
How about a power feed for the Sherline? My idea is to drill and tap the center of the handwheel for an allen cap screw with a 1/4" hex hole. Locktite that into the handwheel, then use a battery powered screwdriver with a hex driver. Just pickup the screwdriver, place it into the allen screw and drive the wheel either way.

I bought a very neat screwdriver to keep on my bench with a countersink in it to debur holes. I found one (Dewalt I think, its yellow and black) that has a gyroscope in it- you place it in the screw and just slightly twist your wrist in the direction you want it to turn- there is no for/rev button to press, just twist your wrist. It works in any direction, pointed straight up, or down or however you need to hold it. It has proven to be very useful.

A power feed is not just easier, it gives a more constant speed and nicer surface finish.

How are you going to finish all those track pieces? I think a short ride  in a tumbler would give them a perfect texture and knock off all the sharp corners. They would look a lot like the original castings.

I was wondering about tumbling them to give them that cast look. I have a vibrating tumbler for cleaning pistol/rifle brass, but I don't think the normal walnut shell media would do more than polish them. What works for smoothing parts like these, some sort of ball bearing media? I draw the line at hand sanding each one, and the shop elves just laughed and rolled off the bench!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 06, 2016, 07:35:37 PM
Coming down the home stretch on the track plates now - got the rest of the inside grooves milled in, and have gotten the setup for the traction ridge on the outside face done. With the holding jig at a slight angle, a ball-end mill is used to cut the shape of the ridge that runs down the center, first from ones side then the other.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3ny9hwop3/IMG_8592.jpg)
Here are the first few cut:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/66jyilafb/IMG_8593.jpg)
Now, just a whole lot more of them to do....

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on November 06, 2016, 07:46:02 PM
Looking damn good Chris and the tracks are looking on track bud...... :ThumbsUp:

Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Captain Jerry on November 07, 2016, 02:08:21 AM
Chris

Those tracks look great.  I held my breath while you were drilling those pin holes and due to that, they came out straight and true.  The roller grooves also look good. Your angled approach to the traction bar was an eye opener.  It let you raise a bar where you had no material.  Good outside the box thinking.  By the way, in current terminology, that thing is called a grouser bar or just grouser.   It is pronounced as if the "S" were a "Z".  I don't know when that became common terminology.

I think that you will be fine leaving the drive lug off of the inside face.  Modern crawler tracks are driven by contact with the bushing only with no secondary drive lug.  It will also make calculating the sprocket pitch easier
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 07, 2016, 02:52:36 AM
Chris

Those tracks look great.  I held my breath while you were drilling those pin holes and due to that, they came out straight and true.  The roller grooves also look good. Your angled approach to the traction bar was an eye opener.  It let you raise a bar where you had no material.  Good outside the box thinking.  By the way, in current terminology, that thing is called a grouser bar or just grouser.   It is pronounced as if the "S" were a "Z".  I don't know when that became common terminology.

I think that you will be fine leaving the drive lug off of the inside face.  Modern crawler tracks are driven by contact with the bushing only with no secondary drive lug.  It will also make calculating the sprocket pitch easier
Thanks for the breath holding! It actually went easy, since the gaps let the chips clear so no pecking needed, just needed oil to keep it from overheating. The first couple were a small angle off true, small tweak to the way the jig sat in the vise got it straight. I would drill through a finger section, advance to the next, and start slow to let it effectively center drill a start, then crank through.

If I had thought far enough ahead I would have bought thicker stock, but angling the cut for the grouser gave the right look. I have most of one track milled, just the other half of the plates to do. I am very happy with how well the jig has worked out.

Can you make me a list of proper terms for the track bits? I know all the correct terms for parts on my sailboat, but these terms are new to me! Probably a wiki page somewhere with a diagram...

After the pins are done I will lay out the sprocket, and make a test one (or two, three, ... ) out of wood before making the steel one. I got a deal on a 2' x 3' drop chunk of .120" thick 304 stainless plate that wil be great for the sprockets and the center plate.

Thanks for your help!!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 07, 2016, 02:54:10 AM
Looking damn good Chris and the tracks are looking on track bud...... :ThumbsUp:

Don

Thanks Don!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 07, 2016, 03:23:29 AM
Dang Chris..............with these tracks, you've gone from a wood carver to a metal carver!  :lolb:

The bigger hand wheels came out great! I just added some 2 1/2" 6061 to my next Speedy Metals order. There really is a difference in the feel of 2 1/2" hand wheels vs 2". I like the custom handle as well. Of course the downside is............. now all the plastic handles are going to look like the devil, so you've got to make all new handles!  :LittleDevil:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: fumopuc on November 07, 2016, 04:38:22 AM
Hi Chris, very nice. Jigs and fixtures seems to be a must for this job. The result is fantastic.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Captain Jerry on November 07, 2016, 01:35:32 PM
Chris

Here is a pretty complete discussion of modern crawler tractor tracks.  It is from Dresser Industries but applies to the tracks used on almost all earthmoving equipment.  This track type has a chain link structure with track shoes that bolt to the chain  and is the type used where traction and travel are a major factor.  It is a descendent of the Lombard track  but it is one of two branches in crawler track design.

http://www.tractorparts.com/PDFs/undrcarguide.pdf

The other branch, which is used primarily on large cranes, more closely resembles the Lombard style in that the track shoes are pined together with no separate link.  This type of track is primarily used to provide a stable, low ground pressure base for a rotating platform.  Traction and wear are not a factors because the work site is carefully leveled and dressed and the machine is actually moved slowly, carefully, and rarely.

Here are a couple of pictures of modern crawler crane tracks and you can see how much more closely they resemble the Lombard track.  Notice the prominent drive lug on the inner face of the shoe.  It provides the drive face as well as the track allignment.

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 07, 2016, 02:33:38 PM
Dang Chris..............with these tracks, you've gone from a wood carver to a metal carver!  :lolb:

The bigger hand wheels came out great! I just added some 2 1/2" 6061 to my next Speedy Metals order. There really is a difference in the feel of 2 1/2" hand wheels vs 2". I like the custom handle as well. Of course the downside is............. now all the plastic handles are going to look like the devil, so you've got to make all new handles!  :LittleDevil:

Jim
The larger handles are a lot easier on the fingers, with so much time on the mill lately those small wheels and sharp edged handles were giving me blisters. The core of the handles is a steel bar, turned to leave a retaining lip at the end, and threaded to screw into the wheel with a drop of loctite to keep it in place.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 07, 2016, 02:36:19 PM
Hi Chris, very nice. Jigs and fixtures seems to be a must for this job. The result is fantastic.
I can't imagine making these parts without the jig, possible but so much time would be needed to position correctly and the repeatability would be very hard to accomplish. With the jig, its easy.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 07, 2016, 02:43:15 PM
Chris

Here is a pretty complete discussion of modern crawler tractor tracks.  It is from Dresser Industries but applies to the tracks used on almost all earthmoving equipment.  This track type has a chain link structure with track shoes that bolt to the chain  and is the type used where traction and travel are a major factor.  It is a descendent of the Lombard track  but it is one of two branches in crawler track design.

http://www.tractorparts.com/PDFs/undrcarguide.pdf

The other branch, which is used primarily on large cranes, more closely resembles the Lombard style in that the track shoes are pined together with no separate link.  This type of track is primarily used to provide a stable, low ground pressure base for a rotating platform.  Traction and wear are not a factors because the work site is carefully leveled and dressed and the machine is actually moved slowly, carefully, and rarely.

Here are a couple of pictures of modern crawler crane tracks and you can see how much more closely they resemble the Lombard track.  Notice the prominent drive lug on the inner face of the shoe.  It provides the drive face as well as the track allignment.
That's a great write-up. Neat to see how similar the crane track is too. Its amazing how complex the modern track systems have become. Normally I just see a muddy blob going around at the construction sites! Thanks!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 07, 2016, 04:38:38 PM
Chris

Here is a pretty complete discussion of modern crawler tractor tracks.  It is from Dresser Industries but applies to the tracks used on almost all earthmoving equipment.  This track type has a chain link structure with track shoes that bolt to the chain  and is the type used where traction and travel are a major factor.  It is a descendent of the Lombard track  but it is one of two branches in crawler track design.

http://www.tractorparts.com/PDFs/undrcarguide.pdf (http://www.tractorparts.com/PDFs/undrcarguide.pdf)

The other branch, which is used primarily on large cranes, more closely resembles the Lombard style in that the track shoes are pined together with no separate link.  This type of track is primarily used to provide a stable, low ground pressure base for a rotating platform.  Traction and wear are not a factors because the work site is carefully leveled and dressed and the machine is actually moved slowly, carefully, and rarely.

Here are a couple of pictures of modern crawler crane tracks and you can see how much more closely they resemble the Lombard track.  Notice the prominent drive lug on the inner face of the shoe.  It provides the drive face as well as the track allignment.

Jerry - the first attachment is a .htm type, but I can't seem to get it to open - can you retry it?
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Captain Jerry on November 07, 2016, 05:44:26 PM
Chris, I don't know what happened to the file but it won't open for me either, not even directly on my system.  Here is another attempt at a similar picture.  Chinese version.

http://www.crawlercranesparts.com/images/qie_r1_c1.jpg

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 07, 2016, 07:18:15 PM
Thanks Jerry!

The profiling of the plates for the first track are done, about to start in on the ones for the other half...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9l6qcgv7r/IMG_8594.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/5q3c9wc1z/IMG_8595.jpg)

And last night was another run of our RC submarine group at the local Y pool, here is a quick clip of my Alfa running (other guys were still prepping thiers, not in the water yet).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nY7vFMMLOhE
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Perry on November 07, 2016, 07:30:15 PM
Those tracks looks fantastic !
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 07, 2016, 08:38:51 PM
Those tracks looks fantastic !

Thanks Perry! The parts of this build that are the most challenging for me are the tracks, drive chains, and roller chains - 1 down, 2 to go! 
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 07, 2016, 11:48:33 PM
Another hour in the shop, and the plates for the other track set are fully shaped!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bsaz0e0hz/IMG_8598.jpg)

Next up will be the rollers that go on the pivot pins, in the center of the track in the long slot. Very simple to make, drill a hole in some round bar, and part off to length. Aside from needed a whole handful of them...! That will probably be done in a couple days, lots of other stuff on tap for tomorrow...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Captain Jerry on November 08, 2016, 12:39:08 AM
Tracks look great.  You are really moving along.  Those rollers are called "bushings" in trackspeak.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on November 08, 2016, 12:42:17 AM
Those tracks are just amazing Chris!! Nice job on the larger handwheels too for the Sherline.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on November 08, 2016, 12:48:20 AM
Woooo! Damn Dog you been busy. I.........like......... :Love:


  :popcornsmall:
Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on November 08, 2016, 01:16:28 AM
The tracks are looking very nice Chris!

I was going to comment on the tumbler or vibratory bowl (not sure which you have)? There is a wide variety of ceramic media usually in the form of cones or stars; these are used with a surfactant to vibrate around and deburr your parts. If you are using a vibratory bowl the media and parts need to roll; if there is no rolling action the parts will just wear against each other and you will not be happy with the results. I have had mixed results with my small Burr King vibratory bowl using the ceramic media. It is tricky getting the right amount of liquid to achieve the rolling action.

If you have a tumbler I can't offer much insight to how well it will work. I have a friend who used to make Llama pack frames and he band sawed the parts out of 1/2" aluminum plate then threw them into a home made tumbler that used a 55 gallon plastic drum with sand and gravel for the media. The parts were just fine for the intended purpose. you may need to experiment a little to obtain the finish you are after.

Dave
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 08, 2016, 01:50:31 AM
Tracks look great.  You are really moving along.  Those rollers are called "bushings" in trackspeak.

Gotcha - still looking for a copy of the 'TrackSpeak for Dummies' book! I'm learning... slowly...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 08, 2016, 01:52:54 AM
The tracks are looking very nice Chris!

I was going to comment on the tumbler or vibratory bowl (not sure which you have)? There is a wide variety of ceramic media usually in the form of cones or stars; these are used with a surfactant to vibrate around and deburr your parts. If you are using a vibratory bowl the media and parts need to roll; if there is no rolling action the parts will just wear against each other and you will not be happy with the results. I have had mixed results with my small Burr King vibratory bowl using the ceramic media. It is tricky getting the right amount of liquid to achieve the rolling action.

If you have a tumbler I can't offer much insight to how well it will work. I have a friend who used to make Llama pack frames and he band sawed the parts out of 1/2" aluminum plate then threw them into a home made tumbler that used a 55 gallon plastic drum with sand and gravel for the media. The parts were just fine for the intended purpose. you may need to experiment a little to obtain the finish you are after.

Dave
Mine is the vibratory type, use it mainly for polishing rifle/pistol brass, usually with walnut media or the like. Worth some experiments with these parts, may not get anywhere but fun to try it.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on November 08, 2016, 02:03:47 AM
You have probably seen the rolling action with your brass and walnut shell media; this is what you need to see with your steel parts and what ever media you choose to experiment with.
I have been wanting to try using the walnut shell media that has the red rouge added to it for deburring and polishing tiny brass model engine parts; have you tried this?



Dave
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 08, 2016, 02:10:29 AM
You have probably seen the rolling action with your brass and walnut shell media; this is what you need to see with your steel parts and what ever media you choose to experiment with.
I have been wanting to try using the walnut shell media that has the red rouge added to it for deburring and polishing tiny brass model engine parts; have you tried this?



Dave
No - just used it for the shells so far, don't have any of the rouge stuff, just the plain media.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 08, 2016, 03:02:54 AM

How are you going to finish all those track pieces? I think a short ride  in a tumbler would give them a perfect texture and knock off all the sharp corners. They would look a lot like the original castings.

I was wondering about tumbling them to give them that cast look. I have a vibrating tumbler for cleaning pistol/rifle brass, but I don't think the normal walnut shell media would do more than polish them. What works for smoothing parts like these, some sort of ball bearing media? I draw the line at hand sanding each one, and the shop elves just laughed and rolled off the bench!

Chris,
How about using a portable sandblaster to give them a cast look: http://www.harborfreight.com/portable-abrasive-blaster-kit-37025.html

I've got a similar one that I've used through the years for larger parts. I'm going to try it on some small parts sometime, but I think it might work good. What kind of steel are you using for the tracks?

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 08, 2016, 03:15:08 AM

How are you going to finish all those track pieces? I think a short ride  in a tumbler would give them a perfect texture and knock off all the sharp corners. They would look a lot like the original castings.

I was wondering about tumbling them to give them that cast look. I have a vibrating tumbler for cleaning pistol/rifle brass, but I don't think the normal walnut shell media would do more than polish them. What works for smoothing parts like these, some sort of ball bearing media? I draw the line at hand sanding each one, and the shop elves just laughed and rolled off the bench!

Chris,
How about using a portable sandblaster to give them a cast look: http://www.harborfreight.com/portable-abrasive-blaster-kit-37025.html

I've got a similar one that I've used through the years for larger parts. I'm going to try it on some small parts sometime, but I think it might work good. What kind of steel are you using for the tracks?

Jim
Would that kind of setup do a good job of deburring too? The ball end mill left small burs every time it passed the edge of the fingers. I have a friend who has a small tabletop sandblasting rig that I can borrow time on. My compressor is too small a volume for it.

The steel parts, including the tracks, on this build will mostly be 303 stainless, a few 304 parts that come out of the plate stock I have.

To do some experiments, I am picking up some ceramic media for the tumbler to see what it does, if anything. If nothing, I can always throw in a shop gnome. Not any of my elves, a buddy has some gnomes that hang around his production shop!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 08, 2016, 03:43:55 AM

How are you going to finish all those track pieces? I think a short ride  in a tumbler would give them a perfect texture and knock off all the sharp corners. They would look a lot like the original castings.

I was wondering about tumbling them to give them that cast look. I have a vibrating tumbler for cleaning pistol/rifle brass, but I don't think the normal walnut shell media would do more than polish them. What works for smoothing parts like these, some sort of ball bearing media? I draw the line at hand sanding each one, and the shop elves just laughed and rolled off the bench!

Chris,
How about using a portable sandblaster to give them a cast look: http://www.harborfreight.com/portable-abrasive-blaster-kit-37025.html

I've got a similar one that I've used through the years for larger parts. I'm going to try it on some small parts sometime, but I think it might work good. What kind of steel are you using for the tracks?

Jim
Would that kind of setup do a good job of deburring too? The ball end mill left small burs every time it passed the edge of the fingers. I have a friend who has a small tabletop sandblasting rig that I can borrow time on. My compressor is too small a volume for it.

The steel parts, including the tracks, on this build will mostly be 303 stainless, a few 304 parts that come out of the plate stock I have.

To do some experiments, I am picking up some ceramic media for the tumbler to see what it does, if anything. If nothing, I can always throw in a shop gnome. Not any of my elves, a buddy has some gnomes that hang around his production shop!

I've got some 303. I'll mill a piece so it leaves a burr and give it a try.
Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 08, 2016, 04:53:46 PM
Started on cutting the bushings for the center of the pivot rods on the tracks. Drilled the end of a longer rod, then parted off to length.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9dnotp9mv/IMG_8599.jpg)

Few swipes of a file to remove the bur that the parting tool leaves at the edge of the hole, and ready for test fit. A little hard to see in the pic, the bushings are on the rods next to the tweezers, the rod above that has no bushing yet.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/43iq2epdz/IMG_8600.jpg)

A little easier to see in this picture - the upper rods have bushings, the lower does not
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fh59dlzwn/IMG_8602.jpg)

I did not have the 5/32" rod that I want to use for the bushings, so this test was done with 3/16" rod, its a little large, so I have some 5/32" rod on the way. In the meantime, I will skip over to working on the pivot rod ends.

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 09, 2016, 01:09:20 AM
As I mentioned in last post, I am waiting on some 5/32" steel stock, so I am skipping over to the pivot pins in the meantime. They need to be peened over on one end to enlarge the diameter, so for that I got out my pin holding block. This is a pair of steel bars, with two locating pins fixed on one side and a slightly loose fit on the other, and with a series of different size holes drilled through the joint to allow a good hold on different size stock.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/43nbg5err/IMG_8609.jpg)
The outside edges are stepped to let the blocks sit at the top of the vise jaws without slipping down as the pin is hammered.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7brst711j/IMG_8611.jpg)
To use, a pin is set in the appropriate hole, projecting up slightly - amount determines the thickness/width of the resulting head.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8a85vhedj/IMG_8605.jpg)
With the vise tightened down, the head is rounded over and flattened down with a ball peen hammer. Its a little hard to see in the photo, the camera will only focus so close, but it is still projecting above the top of the block and is widened out.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/42ddmqcxz/IMG_8606.jpg)
And here is the pin set in place on the track - again hard to see, but the end is about 15-20 thou larger than the rest of the pin, so it cannot slide into the hole in the track.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xez68wdtz/IMG_8604.jpg)
I still need to make a small disc to go under this head, giving a wider surface against the track. It looks to me in the photos of the real engine that this was how they made the full size ones so that is what I am going to try and duplicate. I am also going to experiment with putting the disc in place before peening the head over, and see if it will lock it into place, more like the rove on a rivet. In the photos of the real engine, I can see the joint between the peened over head and the disc on a lot of them - they probably hot swaged it in place. There is also another loose disc at the other end held from sliding off by a cotter pin like I showed in an earlier post.
So, lots of fiddly small work this coming week!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on November 09, 2016, 11:43:57 AM
You have just solved one of my problems with the excavator tracks. I will make up one of those tools and do my track pins the same way.
Tom
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Roger B on November 09, 2016, 01:33:46 PM
There's a lot of work in those tracks, but it looks like you have got it sorted  :ThumbsUp: Still following along  :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 09, 2016, 01:38:57 PM
You have just solved one of my problems with the excavator tracks. I will make up one of those tools and do my track pins the same way.
Tom
Cool! It does take some experimenting to find which size hole gives the best grip. Make sure you file the corners of the holes on the inside faces slightly to keep it from leaving a mark on the pin. Years ago I had made an arrow puller with the same setup, with the holes lined with thin rubber mat, to pull ones that missed the target and went into the wood target holder or a tree.
Later I am going to experiment with putting the washer disc on the top of the holder before peening the end to see how well it locks the two together.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 09, 2016, 01:40:54 PM
There's a lot of work in those tracks, but it looks like you have got it sorted  :ThumbsUp: Still following along  :wine1:

Thanks Roger! Very pleased with how they are coming out, figured it would be best to start with them in case they didn't. The rest of the track mechanism is going to be interesting too, there is a whole engines worth of parts in that assembly before I even get to the main frame.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 09, 2016, 02:47:49 PM
Okay, I think I have a winner in how to do the inside ends of the track pins. I turned down some steel bar to 5/32" (I have some 5/32 ordered, should be here in a few days) and drilled/parted off a thin washer of it (the parting tool was thicker than the finished part). I put that onto a pin and positioned it in the peening jig with a short length of the pin sticking up:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ctu1ruryf/IMG_8612.jpg)
then hammered it over and down with a ball peen hammer
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dxe63tclj/IMG_8613.jpg)
which made it look just like the pictures I have seen of the real track pins
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qq2a3qo7b/IMG_8615.jpg)
And here it is in place on the track:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/at3i70vt3/IMG_8616.jpg)
I like the looks of that setup - I think that is how I am going to do the rest of them.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on November 09, 2016, 06:01:27 PM
That looks good Chris, but that is a lot of washers to make  :o   ;)

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 09, 2016, 07:30:53 PM
That looks good Chris, but that is a lot of washers to make  :o   ;)

Bill

Only about 120 of them....   :paranoia:   Thats why I'm waiting for the right diameter rod (tomorrow) to make the rest, so its just drilling/parting that needs to be done.

Tricky part is keeping them from jumping off the end of the bar as the parting tool breaks through and getting lost in a corner or pile of swarf - have been holding a small rod in the hole to control them.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 09, 2016, 07:45:18 PM
Another jig to make - this one is to drill the ends of the track pivot rods for the cotter pins. Teeny little cotter pins! I started with an offcut of steel flat stock, squared up the ends and drilled a close fit hole for the pivot rods down the end.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6nsll3y13/IMG_8617.jpg)
Then, with the table locked down in the forward/back direction, turned the bar on its side and drilled through with a #55 drill at the position that the hole in the rod needs to be. The rod is held from sliding in too far by the rivetted on washer on the end - this distance is the width of the track plate plus thickness of the washer plus a little over half the diameter of the hole. From here on, its just a matter of insert the next pin, drop of oil, and run the drill through the hole into the pin, likethis:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xa52a3287/IMG_8618.jpg)
leaving a nicely centered hole in the right place:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rn8pclzpj/IMG_8619.jpg)
If the hole in the jig wears and drifts while making all these pins, I can just mill off the end of the jig and drill a new side hole. With the pin test fit in place, and a washer and a cotter pin bent up out of some fine steel wire, here is the result:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4yoka5onb/IMG_8621.jpg)
And here is the whole assembly, with a center bushing, pivot rod, washers, and cotter pin all in place:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/b0w70nd3b/IMG_8624.jpg)
One down, about 59 to go....
Now, before I do final assembly on them all, I am going to try tumbling the track plates with some ceramic media to debur them better, will have some of that tomorrow too. So a little experimenting, then several days of cutting small bits of metal to go for some finished tracks.  It has actually gotten to this stage quicker than I had expected - gotta love jigs and sharp tools!

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on November 09, 2016, 08:26:16 PM
Chris, I think you are right to go with tumbling rather than sandblasting. If you get aggressive enough with the sandblasting to remove burrs and tool marks you will likely be rounding over some sharper edges you want to remain. The tumbling may do a little of that too depending on the media but it takes longer and you can stop the process at any point. I prefer bead blasting for just adding a nice matte finish to metal and not to remove metal. You may well find that the tumbling is enough on its own.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 09, 2016, 08:27:54 PM
Chris, I think you are right to go with tumbling rather than sandblasting. If you get aggressive enough with the sandblasting to remove burrs and tool marks you will likely be rounding over some sharper edges you want to remain. The tumbling may do a little of that too depending on the media but it takes longer and you can stop the process at any point. I prefer bead blasting for just adding a nice matte finish to metal and not to remove metal. You may well find that the tumbling is enough on its own.

Bill

Good to know - I will post some pics after some experiments tomorrow.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 10, 2016, 09:36:20 PM
I was able to lay my hands on some ceramic tumbling media, this is a 3/8" triangular shape media, here is what it looks like:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6qm4isxdz/Tumbling_Media.jpg)
It may not be the ideal size for the small openings in the parts I am doing, but it is what I could get quickly. If anyone knows of a better size/shape/etc that is available in small quantities (some places sell it in barrel sizes only), please let me know. I put it in the machine (a vibrating style tumbler that I have for reloading brass) for a while, after an hour it was looking quite good. Most of the burs are gone, and the surface is looking much more even. Here are a couple of pictures of the before (bottom) and after (top) parts - the overhanging burs are gone, and the surface finish is much more pleasing, more like a bead-blasted finish.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tlkf7pyiv/IMG_8627.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/ymrt935zb/IMG_8629.jpg)

I have the second half of the parts in now, making a nice racket down in the basement. Also, the round stock for the bushings and the washers arrived a little while ago (my UPS guy is used to bringing heavy tubes/boxes of metal, when loading the truck and gets to a really havy mailing tube, he knows its for me!), so I will be able to start knocking out piles of those parts too.

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Admiral_dk on November 10, 2016, 09:41:44 PM
Quite an improvement in the looks department after tumbling  :praise2:

You are on quite a streak here with another great long build - only problem, I'm using way to much  :popcorn: because of you ;)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 10, 2016, 09:44:17 PM
Quite an improvement in the looks department after tumbling  :praise2:

You are on quite a streak here with another great long build - only problem, I'm using way to much  :popcorn: because of you ;)
Because of this forum I've taken to buying the popcorn kernels in bulk bags - keeps very well in the fridge till needed! 
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Johnmcc69 on November 11, 2016, 12:13:13 AM
Looking real good Chris! I think the finish looks really good. I like the way you created the center "lug/Grouser" with the ball end mill. It's definitely worth the time spent making good jigs & fixtures. You'll have quite the collection of them when this project is complete.

 Really nice work!  :ThumbsUp:

 John
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 11, 2016, 12:17:39 AM
One other background task that I FINALLY brought up to (one of) the front burners is actually sitting down and going through the tutorials to learn the Autodesk Fusion 360 CAD package, and got my first part made in it. Here is a render:
(https://s5.postimg.org/e959rfoqv/Track_Plate_Render.jpg)
Amazing what can happen when you actually RTFM.  I had been poking at the package for a while without going through thier tutorial videos, that was a mistake, wasted a lot of time. Still a bunch to learn about making assemblies and whatnot, but so far so good - this part took about 1-1/2 hours, intermixed with the videos, so actually pretty quick to do. I had a lot of experience with a commercial animation package years ago, so the modelling in 3D this way was not too bad a learning curve.

This should make the dimensioned drawings for the rest of the parts much better than the way I had been doing it. Still some more things to get comfortable with, but its a pretty decent package.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 11, 2016, 12:21:30 AM
Looking real good Chris! I think the finish looks really good. I like the way you created the center "lug/Grouser" with the ball end mill. It's definitely worth the time spent making good jigs & fixtures. You'll have quite the collection of them when this project is complete.

 Really nice work!  :ThumbsUp:

 John
Thanks! There is a collection box of jigs/fixtures/etc that these will join, the finger plate for the tracks should be useful for all sorts of parts - I've seen others here using simaler ones to hold all sorts of odd little bits for machining.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on November 11, 2016, 12:39:23 AM
Chris, I think you found the perfect method for finishing the track parts. They look really good and the details remain very well defined!!  Excellent result!!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on November 11, 2016, 12:59:43 AM
Hi Chris

The tracks sure look good after a trip through the bowl. Are you running them with some soap; and for how long?


Dave
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 11, 2016, 01:27:20 AM
Hi Chris

The tracks sure look good after a trip through the bowl. Are you running them with some soap; and for how long?


Dave
They ran about an hour per batch. Looked at them after 10 minutes and a half hour, after an hour they looked good so I stopped it. The parts and ceramic bits were rotating up and down the bowl nicely.

No soap - what would that do? Like liquid dish soap? I just ran it dry, rinsed the parts off when done to remove the fine particles. When running the brass cases there is polish and brightening solutions that you can add.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 11, 2016, 03:35:48 AM
Chris, those tracks look great! Although I'm not sure it'll make much difference when they're all mucked up with mud from running around in your backyard!  :ROFL:

I'd love to see a picture of your tumbling setup if you get a chance.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 11, 2016, 03:45:45 AM
Chris, those tracks look great! Although I'm not sure it'll make much difference when they're all mucked up with mud from running around in your backyard!  :ROFL:

I'd love to see a picture of your tumbling setup if you get a chance.

Jim
Here it is, a Lyman tumbler, with the ceramic media. Add a handful of track parts, screw down the cover, plug in for an hour, all done.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 11, 2016, 04:25:17 AM
Thanks Chris.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 11, 2016, 04:49:01 PM
Got rolling on making the washer discs for the track pins this morning, made up enough for the ones to be rivetted onto the inner ends of the pins for both tracks, started with 5/32" rod, drilled and parted off on the lathe:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/79r7s2osn/IMG_8632.jpg)
At the bottom of the picture you can see some of the bits that were left by the parting tool as it broke through that had to be clipped off the discs with an end cutter.
With the discs made, I started rivetting them on to the ends of the pins, using the split plate tool that I had shown earlier:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/uchqr8q9z/IMG_8634.jpg)
At this point, one tracks worth of pins are rivetted:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/b8ofawdfr/IMG_8635.jpg)
Next up will be to make another batch of the washers for the outer ends of the pins, then make the thicker bushings that go in the middle of the track plates. After that, drill the ends for the cotter pins, and I can assemble the tracks for real.

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on November 11, 2016, 11:39:25 PM
That didn't take long at all! I haven't made a single part all week and you have done a few dozen ... and fiddly wee potlickers as well! Think I'll go back to knitting.

Tom
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 12, 2016, 12:00:39 AM
That didn't take long at all! I haven't made a single part all week and you have done a few dozen ... and fiddly wee potlickers as well! Think I'll go back to knitting.

Tom
Oh, come on, its only 10 dozen so far... And I'd rather do these than knit!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 12, 2016, 12:20:52 AM
My mother tried to teach me to knit when I was a kid. Long dark winter nights and only one television channel (on a good clear night). I never did learn. Tried to learn to play cribbage and never did well at that either. Dumb damn kid!!---but---I bet her and I played ten thousand games of crokinole each winter.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 12, 2016, 12:55:51 AM
My mother tried to teach me to knit when I was a kid. Long dark winter nights and only one television channel (on a good clear night). I never did learn. Tried to learn to play cribbage and never did well at that either. Dumb damn kid!!---but---I bet her and I played ten thousand games of crokinole each winter.

I played tons of Euchre and gin rummy during school and at lunch time at work, loved that, but never could figure out Bridge. Made as much sense to me as a marketing plan.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 12, 2016, 01:03:48 AM
The shop elves got the rest of the rest of the washers rivetted on the other half of the pivot pins, and the other track test assembled again. They sent thier pet CyberElf over with it.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3vi83f85j/IMG_8637.jpg)

Another couple of half-hour sessions making up another big pile of washers and also the center bushings later (they go quick - drill hole in the end of the rod, part off a few, move the rod out and repeat)...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/plvneg1l3/IMG_8640.jpg)
and ready to start drilling the ends of the pivots for the cotter pins.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/j6wmhruvb/IMG_8639.jpg)
Then I am going to give the elves a bag of cookies and let them make and install all the cotter pins...!

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on November 12, 2016, 01:08:01 AM
Hi Chris

The tracks sure look good after a trip through the bowl. Are you running them with some soap; and for how long?


Dave
They ran about an hour per batch. Looked at them after 10 minutes and a half hour, after an hour they looked good so I stopped it. The parts and ceramic bits were rotating up and down the bowl nicely.

No soap - what would that do? Like liquid dish soap? I just ran it dry, rinsed the parts off when done to remove the fine particles. When running the brass cases there is polish and brightening solutions that you can add.

Hi Chris

The soap helps flush away the swarf; and in my thinking also keeps the media from loading up; kind of  like using a sharpening stone with out any lube. I have a gallon of concentrate that I purchased from Burr-King; I think the advantage of the commercial product are the low foaming properties and rust inhibitors.

When we were kids my sister and I used to play Canasta with my grandmother and great aunt (her twin sister); lots of fun.

Dave
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 12, 2016, 01:23:50 AM
Hi Chris

The tracks sure look good after a trip through the bowl. Are you running them with some soap; and for how long?


Dave
They ran about an hour per batch. Looked at them after 10 minutes and a half hour, after an hour they looked good so I stopped it. The parts and ceramic bits were rotating up and down the bowl nicely.

No soap - what would that do? Like liquid dish soap? I just ran it dry, rinsed the parts off when done to remove the fine particles. When running the brass cases there is polish and brightening solutions that you can add.

Hi Chris

The soap helps flush away the swarf; and in my thinking also keeps the media from loading up; kind of  like using a sharpening stone with out any lube. I have a gallon of concentrate that I purchased from Burr-King; I think the advantage of the commercial product are the low foaming properties and rust inhibitors.

When we were kids my sister and I used to play Canasta with my grandmother and great aunt (her twin sister); lots of fun.

Dave
Thanks for the info - will look into that for next time I run a batch.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on November 12, 2016, 11:28:28 AM
The shop elves got the rest of the rest of the washers rivetted on the other half of the pivot pins, and the other track test assembled again. They sent thier pet CyberElf over with it.
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d35/crueby1/Lombard%20Hauler%20Build/IMG_8637_zpsy4qrqdu4.jpg)


That's what I need ... a CyberElf or two! I'll print a couple up.

Really good looking tracks.

Tom

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 13, 2016, 05:50:10 PM
I got the tracks assembled, with the center bushings and the outer washers all on, ready for the cotter pins:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/g5jmd1lvr/IMG_8641.jpg)
I was about to start on the cotter pins, but found I was out of the fine stainless steel wire needed. I thought I had another spool, have lots in copper and brass, but am out of the stainless. So, I need to go get more of that. I bet the shop elves heard I was going to make them do this job and they hid it.

So, in the meantime, I have been playing in the CAD software, figuring out the shape for the sprocket wheels for the tracks. It still needs some refinement, but I have it far enough along to make a test wheel out of wood and see if it will function as is or if I need to change anything. Here is a screen grab of it:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8e2wehhqf/Sprocket.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: AOG on November 13, 2016, 06:08:21 PM
Looking at your post something popped into my head. With the track lops closed isn't it going to be difficult to install them? It seems to me that it's going to be hard to get them around all the bits and bobs in the suspension. Might I suggest leaving the last link open so you can put the model on the tracks and lay the remainder over the top of the suspension and then close the last link.

Just a suggestion

Tony
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 13, 2016, 06:19:50 PM
Looking at your post something popped into my head. With the track lops closed isn't it going to be difficult to install them? It seems to me that it's going to be hard to get them around all the bits and bobs in the suspension. Might I suggest leaving the last link open so you can put the model on the tracks and lay the remainder over the top of the suspension and then close the last link.

Just a suggestion

Tony

Hi Tony,

I don't think it will be much of a problem - the bearing blocks that the sprocket axles are held by have slots in them for tensioning the tracks, it may be possible to just loosen both of them and slip the track over the second sprocket. If not, two other options - 1) open one link like you say, just needs removing/replacing a cotter, which is easy and at worst wastes one cotter pin, or 2) taking the bolts out of one set of bearing blocks to let it move even farther. I have not drawn up the track mounting system yet, but actually was just looking through the pictures from the restoration to see about that very issue! I was also making notes on the number of spokes in the sprockets (6), and tapers, bevels, hub flange, etc.
As you can see in this picture, there are a LOT of parts to come on the track assembly:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gkuw627t3/IMG_3027.jpg)
It must have taken a lot of muscle and tools to install the track on these beasts.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on November 13, 2016, 08:30:19 PM
Traditionally, crawler tracks are installed by driving the machine onto the track, slacking off the tensioner, pulling the ends together at the top, installing the "master" pin and then tensioning the track.

At least that's what Cat tells 'ya and what we always did....

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 13, 2016, 09:56:35 PM
Traditionally, crawler tracks are installed by driving the machine onto the track, slacking off the tensioner, pulling the ends together at the top, installing the "master" pin and then tensioning the track.

At least that's what Cat tells 'ya and what we always did....

Pete

I went and watched the video of the team at the museum installing the drive chain, which is LOTS lighter than the tracks, but still very heavy, and fighting with the tensioner and pin to get it linked like you describe, still a very difficult thing to manage on something that large. Fortunately my version wieghs only about a pound or so!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 13, 2016, 10:22:40 PM
I spent some more time this afternoon refining the sprocket wheel 3d model, adding the spokes and the recesses, and it is looking more like the real one now.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8e2wehhqf/Sprocket.jpg)
Then I went up to the wood shop and found a scrap bit of 3mm marine plywood that will work fine to test out the sprocket design with the tracks - much quicker/cheaper to waste some wood than to do it for real in steel. I started by glueing a dowel in the center of a 3" circle of the plywood, and set it up on the rotary table to drill the holes for the pivot pin bushings to ride in:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/vsfh45p1j/IMG_8642.jpg)
and then between those, at a different offset from center, are holes to locate the middle of the valley for the track lug (center of the track plate) to ride in:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bz3dbgbnr/IMG_8643.jpg)
The track lug valleys will be square bottom to mate with the track plate, the bottom of the hole is tangent to where the flat will be.
Then I worked out a sequence and offsets to mill the slanted sides of the teeth (taking notes to re-use with the steel version later):
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5zfm7sqvb/IMG_8647.jpg)
After some filing of the edges to get the width of the teeth down to the proper size (the plywood was a little thicker than the steel will be) and also squaring up the bottom of the lug valleys with a file, it was time to do some test fits
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4lnzchrlz/IMG_8648.jpg)
It took a couple tries to get it to be a smooth fit all the way around - had to relieve the sides of the flats a little - it became a nice rolling fit.
Initiate happy dance mode!  :pinkelephant:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/goxwdss1z/IMG_8649.jpg)
I will take some measurements of the wood test wheel, and compare to the plan to see if there are any tweaks needed in the design, but it went quite smoothly. The last time I made a sprocket was for the weight chain on a clock, and that one took half a dozen attempts over several days, this one proved that CAD drawing it first can work. Maybe not always, but at least it can!


Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on November 13, 2016, 10:31:54 PM
By Golly Ollie, give that man a cookie! That looks like it will work well Chris.

Tom
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 13, 2016, 10:36:03 PM
By Golly Ollie, give that man a cookie! That looks like it will work well Chris.

Tom
Cookie - yeah!   :cheers: (we need a cookie icon!)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 13, 2016, 11:27:33 PM
I took measurements from the wooden test sprocket, and it looks like the only change I will make to the CAD model is to open up the angles of the lug valleys a bit. The opening for the pivot bushing is fine, and all the radius placements are fine. Not bad, considering that I have not learned to do the animations of multiple parts in the software yet so it was sketched by eye on the tooth sides. Glad I did the test wheel first, saved a bit of rework on the steel version.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on November 14, 2016, 12:22:20 AM
Great idea to do the test wheel in wood Chris, looks like you are very close to the final design though...very nice!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 14, 2016, 03:36:56 AM
Coming along nicely Chris. I already know more about crawler tracks than I ever did before. Like others, I was always in the "tracks full of mud camp".

What CAD software are you using?

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 14, 2016, 12:23:39 PM
Coming along nicely Chris. I already know more about crawler tracks than I ever did before. Like others, I was always in the "tracks full of mud camp".

What CAD software are you using?

Jim
I'm still learning about tracks, lot more to them than I ever knew!

I am using AutoCAD Fusion 360, which can be had for free for individual non commercial use. I am going through the video tutorial series on thier website, so far can do the basic modelling steps. It can generate 2d dimensioned plan sheets from the 3d too. It stores info online so you can share parts with a team. Nice package, I will probably use 5% of its capabilities.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 14, 2016, 12:28:16 PM
Great idea to do the test wheel in wood Chris, looks like you are very close to the final design though...very nice!!

Bill
It worked out well, still need to do some research on the photos to figure out how long to make the axles front and rear. The rear ones get a drive chain sprocket on the inside ends. The axles don't go all the way across, there is a central axle that the track assemblies pivot on. I wasn't sure about the pivoting till I saw a video of the real one going over a bump.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 14, 2016, 11:01:55 PM
Well, its a good thing that I have a bunch to do on the cotter pins for the tracks, the sprocket plates just took a big step backwards.

I had picked up an offcut of .120 thick 304 stainless plate from a metal supplier that I thought would be perfect for the sprockets and for some of the larger plates in the track assembly. This evening I cut out square blanks for the sprockets, and went to drill the center holes. Man, does this stuff dull and destroy drill bits fast! Don't know what the hardening of it is, or it is mismarked as to alloy, but this stuff is odd. Pushes out a bit from the bit, then gloms onto it, even with plenty of oil. Destroyed a brand new 1/4" cobalt steel bit. Given the number of holes that I will be drilling to form the sprocket teeth, I am backing away from this stuff and going to look for another route - see what flat stock or round stock I can find to machine the sprockets out of.  I haven't seen a bit destroyed like this since the time I hit a hard inclusion in a casting.

 :toilet_claw:

EDIT:
Well, Dumb Luck strikes again! (BTW - Dumb Luck was the name of my first boat! Mainly since 'take it easy but take it' would not fit on the transom).

I went back and dug into my steel stock piles, looking for something that I could piece up possibly for the sprockets (finished size just under 3" diameter), or maybe a wide but thicker piece of something to recut down, and at the back of the stack came up with a 3' length of 3/16" thick x 3" wide 303 stainless that had followed me home during the Shay build. Nearly perfect for this, a little thick but the blanks will be turned down for the teeth shapes anyway, and this leaves the hub a little thicker without adding on pieces. And I know this stock is proper alloy and annealing state.
 :whoohoo:
Sometimes it pays to be a minor-scale packrat!
 
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on November 14, 2016, 11:23:19 PM
Chris,  I think 304 is the "dumping ground " for stainless alloy.  If you think it drilled terrible,  try turning a piece  :hellno:. We used a lot of 304 in the paper mills for piping and you could easily see the difference between it and 316 just by the weld puddle when TIG welding.

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 14, 2016, 11:48:13 PM
Chris,  I think 304 is the "dumping ground " for stainless alloy.  If you think it drilled terrible,  try turning a piece  :hellno:. We used a lot of 304 in the paper mills for piping and you could easily see the difference between it and 316 just by the weld puddle when TIG welding.

Cletus
I have used a lot of 303, not sure about 316. There are so many alloys these days, which are good for machinability with home tools? By that I mean no flood cooling, exotic tools.

When you mention the weld puddle, what was the difference? Did the 304 have contamination?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Roger B on November 15, 2016, 05:35:20 PM
There is a lot of dubious material out there  ::) We came across quite a lot of rusty stainless steel on my last project in China  :( For the critical parts we sent samples to a European lab for analysis.

Still following along  :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 15, 2016, 10:03:02 PM
Today I got spools of a variety of sizes of stainless steel wire, and got a start on the cotter pins (the shop elves were hiding, so I had to do it). The first track is done, ready to start the second.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bs87s56vb/IMG_8652.jpg)
I had started cutting down the steel flat bar for the sprocket blanks, when I got a call from a friend of mine with an invite to go out canoeing on one of the local creeks - turned out to be a decent day for this time of year, calm wind, sunny, almost 60 degrees (F) - took one look out the window, put down the saw, and out the door I went! Was a great day to get out, some years it is snowing by now...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 16, 2016, 09:11:45 PM
Today the cutting starts on the sprocket wheels that turn the tracks, four of them in all. to start, I prepped the stock for the sprockets. I sawed squares out of a larger bar, and clamped them to the mill table for drilling the center hole.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/uj5jokc1z/IMG_8654.jpg)
The plate was held on top of a 1-2-3 block, with the drilling done over one of the holes in the block so it would not be hit. Each was drilled and reamed to 1/4" -.001".
(https://s5.postimg.cc/767i61vyf/IMG_8655.jpg)
In order to hold them securely for milling and turning I made up an arbor out of some 1-1/4" brass round bar. With the ends squared up, drilled the center for a 10-32 thread, and redrilled the outer 1/4" for the clearance on the bolt. Then recessed the end a bit so that it will only bear on the outer edge:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4q5os7dvr/IMG_8657.jpg)
This will form the cap of the arbor, so I parted it off leaving the cap 1/4" thick:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5470rsxzb/IMG_8658.jpg)
and then turned back the face, leaving a stub that is a snug fit for the holes in the sprocket plates:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/e0hsvqolj/IMG_8659.jpg)
Then I moved the chuck over to the mill, leaving the arbor chucked up so that everything stays concentric, and drilled/tapped for a 5-40 bolt out near the rim. Given the size of the sprockets (about 3" diameter), I don't want to take any chances with the parts spinning on the arbor during milling operations, so I will use this second bolt as a locating pin. It is far enough out that it will fall in one of the openings between the spokes.
First, here is a look at the arbor so far:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mwskzof7r/IMG_8660.jpg)
and here after drilling for the locating bolt:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rjyn1g2kn/IMG_8662.jpg)
Then I put each plate in place in the arbor, and through drilled a close fit clearance hole for the locating bolt:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/713qwdonb/IMG_8663.jpg)
Then, last steps were to round up the plates. They were a little too large to swing over the bed on the lathe when still square, so I used the big recip saw to knock off the corners, then put the chuck back on the lathe to get ready to round the plates:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dsu5z8dmv/IMG_8667.jpg)
Here is the first plate turned round. It was left larger than the final sprocket, so that I can drill holes around the edge for the teeth like I did with the wooden test part a couple days ago, see the earlier post for what that will look like.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qye9j2ww7/IMG_8669.jpg)
After I get the other three plates rounded, I will move the chuck and arbor back to the rotary table on the mill and start in on the teeth...

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on November 17, 2016, 12:06:35 AM
Nice progress Chris, so how is the stainless cutting on the lathe?

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 17, 2016, 12:22:22 AM
Nice progress Chris, so how is the stainless cutting on the lathe?

Bill
Hi Bill,

The 304 alloy sheet stock has been abandoned, gave it to a friend with a microbrewery to use as a heat shield in the brewing area. I am doing the discs now from the bar of 303 that I found at the bottom of the pile, got lucky since I have not seen any 3/16 x 3" flat 303 anywhere lately for sale. The 303 cuts, drills, and turns just fine, its my go to alloy for stainless the last two years. The Corliss was done with the 303 for all the steel parts, same on the Shay. A little oil, clear chips, and its fine. The 304, or whatever it really was, was awful to work.

I just finished turning down the last sprocket blank to starting size, and have the first round of holes drilled in the rim, will put up pics tomorrow with details.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on November 17, 2016, 12:58:34 AM
Those parts just keep on coming.....Geeez Dog you putting us to shame but some damn fine work..... :ThumbsUp:

 :popcorn:
Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 17, 2016, 01:14:55 AM
Those parts just keep on coming.....Geeez Dog you putting us to shame but some damn fine work..... :ThumbsUp:

 :popcorn:
Don
Thanks Don!  Pass the biscuits!  Voof!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: ddmckee54 on November 17, 2016, 09:58:57 PM
crueby:

The tracks can be a real bear.  When I built my wooden excavator models I always started with the tracks. 
about 30 man-hours and 500 parts later I'd have a set of tracks.  Then the rest of the build seemed like it was all downhill.

For what it's worth, a few weeks ago I started researching the Phoenix Centiped steam truck/locomotive.  I THINK that they built a prototype but I'm not real sure.  The only reference that I have been able to find to the Centiped is an article in the January 7, 1922 "American Lumberman" magazine.  I know that the Phoenix used a different track arrangement than the Lombard log hauler uses, but this shows a track that sets it apart from any other Phoenix log hauler.

Your tracks are looking good, keep up the good work and remember that it's all downhill from here.

Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 18, 2016, 12:09:17 AM
crueby:

The tracks can be a real bear.  When I built my wooden excavator models I always started with the tracks. 
about 30 man-hours and 500 parts later I'd have a set of tracks.  Then the rest of the build seemed like it was all downhill.

For what it's worth, a few weeks ago I started researching the Phoenix Centiped steam truck/locomotive.  I THINK that they built a prototype but I'm not real sure.  The only reference that I have been able to find to the Centiped is an article in the January 7, 1922 "American Lumberman" magazine.  I know that the Phoenix used a different track arrangement than the Lombard log hauler uses, but this shows a track that sets it apart from any other Phoenix log hauler.

Your tracks are looking good, keep up the good work and remember that it's all downhill from here.

Don

The Phoenix Hauler version used a very different drive, it was a shaft drive back to the track with a miter gear to get back into the right plane for the track. I found a CAD drawing someone did of the Phoenix, quite a lot of detail differences, though the general idea of the tracks is the same.

I figured like you did, that if I can get the tracks to work that the rest of the machine is do-able for me. I've done boilers, engines, gears, and frames, it is the tracks plus the drive chains that are totally new to me. Hopefully it is not the same kind of downhill ride that the steersman had in these things, on and icy road with a hundred tons of logs pushing you faster and faster down the hill, screaming!   :hellno:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 18, 2016, 12:39:43 AM
Time for the real fun on the sprockets, cutting the teeth. With the first sprocket blank on the rotary table on the mill (I actually did the drilling operations at each horizontal position on each of the blanks before repositioning for the next operation), I centered/zeroed the handwheels, and moved the table left to the distance for the first set of holes, which will take the center bushings in the tracks, and center drilled 24 degrees apart:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6jd6u9og7/IMG_8670.jpg)
then drilled the holes with a 5/32" drill:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/k1k36k0lj/IMG_8671.jpg)
Then moved the table inwards to the distance for the other set of holes, which will take the lugs at the center of each track plate, moved the starting angle by 12-1/2 degrees to put it in the center of the other holes, and center drilled those positions:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tndnmurrb/IMG_8672.jpg)
and switched to a 1/8" drill to make these holes:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tonlg9tl3/IMG_8673.jpg)
Now it was time to mill the flats for the teeth. As I was setting up, I found that the table was JUST hitting the column at the bottom of the slots, so I reset to the back of the table for the milling operations. Whoops.
Once I worked out the offsets for the flats, I started by milling them for one side of the lug openings,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ze3u0kzrb/IMG_8674.jpg)
then angled over 12-1/2 degrees to do the same for the same side of the bushing openings,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/w8j8adh53/IMG_8675.jpg)
and then relocated over to the other side to repeat the process for the other side of each tooth:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/d4ui7rton/IMG_8676.jpg)
Here is the first blank with the teeth cut, next to the wooden test part and the next blank to go:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/iitafbjev/IMG_8678.jpg)
Comparing it to the wooden one, everything looks good, but I cannot actually test it on the tracks yet till I can get them back on the lathe to narrow the teeth down to final width, and also take the diameter down a few thou to final size - I had to leave it a little large so that the holes would not come out the edge. Since I dont want to disturb the rotab setup, I will do the teeth on the other 3 blanks first then move the chuck and arbor back to the lathe....
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on November 18, 2016, 01:20:04 AM
Those are looking great Chris. Obviously a lot of work goes into each one, but your seem to have the routine down now.  Well done.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 18, 2016, 01:30:18 AM
Those are looking great Chris. Obviously a lot of work goes into each one, but your seem to have the routine down now.  Well done.

Bill

Thanks Bill - there are a lot of steps in milling out the teeth edges, I think I will stick to doing one blank at a time to keep the mind fresh and stave off the mental goofs. I wrote down the settings/sequences while doing the first one so I can get the rest the same.

I do have to wait for the shop elves to be asleep or busy elsewhere, or the singing is too distracting! 
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 18, 2016, 03:36:25 AM
I had to go back and look at the last couple of pages, but I think I got how this is going to work now. Looks good!

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 18, 2016, 03:57:04 AM
Thanks Jim!

I forgot to mention, before going to the lathe to thin the teeth, the rotary table will be tipped up vertical to square up the bottoms of the lug valleys so they will lay flat with the bottom of the track plates.

The one step that will be done by hand is filing the tips of the teeth round. They are narrow so that will be easy.

Once the teeth are narrowed and test fit to the tracks, I can start on shaping the spokes and hub section.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: joe d on November 18, 2016, 01:06:14 PM
They are looking good, Chris :ThumbsUp:

I really liked your proof of concept wooden sprocket... way easier than junking another piece of stock. 
Filed for future reference.

Cheers, Joe
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 18, 2016, 01:15:29 PM
They are looking good, Chris :ThumbsUp:

I really liked your proof of concept wooden sprocket... way easier than junking another piece of stock. 
Filed for future reference.

Cheers, Joe
Was way faster, easier  and cheaper! Now that I know the setup, I can assembly line all 4 parts without worrying if it will fit.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 19, 2016, 10:28:50 PM
I have the first sprocket turned down on the rim to get the tracks to fit over the teeth, nice fit. If the forum sever will just stay alive for a while I will upload pictures.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on November 19, 2016, 10:35:03 PM
Well it is up for me at the moment Chris :)  Looking forward to seeing the sprocket!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 19, 2016, 10:49:02 PM
I did the last operation on the mill for the sprocket teeth (will be back on it later to cut the spokes out), which was to square up the bottom of the valleys where the center of the track plate sits.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qntfdvv2f/IMG_8679.jpg)
and then went over to the lathe to narrow the teeth portion of the rim to the width of the slots in the track plates, and also tapered the teeth slightly to make it an easier slip fit, allowing for a little misalignment.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7la1qyk1z/IMG_8682.jpg)
After filing off the burs on some of the edges, and a trip back to the mill to open up the squared valleys just a little more, the tracks fit over the sprocket just fine.  BIG relief!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/b65xa6olj/IMG_8684.jpg)
I was able to rotate the track by hand from the other end, and it rolled the sprocket around just fine. I still want to go back and file the tips of the teeth round, but they are functional. I will turn the edges of the other three to match this one, then I can start in on the spokes.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rifyzx2x3/IMG_8687.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 19, 2016, 10:51:36 PM
Was JUST able to get that post in - had two 403 errors, retried it, and it went through. Glad I copy the post contents before trying to post (I keep a backup copy in Word for major builds).

That server is still pretty wonky, needs some more grease in the Gronicle joints!  Maybe the Fetzner valve is clogged again...

 :killcomputer:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on November 19, 2016, 10:56:14 PM
That looks amazing Chris!!  Glad you got the post in.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 19, 2016, 11:02:59 PM
That looks amazing Chris!!  Glad you got the post in.

Bill

Thanks Bill, it was a big relief that all that cutting on the sprocket teeth worked out - very glad I did the wooden test one first to work out the dimensions. The original design was close, just had to widen the angles a little bit to allow the next track to rotate into place cleanly. What I learned on these will hopefully make the ones for the drive chains go a little easier - at least those don't have the alternating tooth shapes.

There is a big snowstorm moving in tonight from the midwest part of the country, hopefully the power stays on so that I can work on the other three sprockets this weekend!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 20, 2016, 02:28:32 AM
Okay, another session this evening, and all four sprockets now have the tooth area narrowed and tapered down to size, and had the burrs knocked off with a file. They all mesh nicely with the tracks, so next time I will modify the arbor to have a smaller top plate and will turn the spoke areas down to size - the section under the teeth and the hub stay full width. Then it will be time to set up for cutting the spoke openings.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qu74gz47b/IMG_8688.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on November 20, 2016, 02:31:44 AM
Good luck with the snow Chris, hope you don't lose power. Losing the forum and power in the same weekend...the shop gnomes must be up to something sinister!!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 20, 2016, 02:42:25 AM
Good luck with the snow Chris, hope you don't lose power. Losing the forum and power in the same weekend...the shop gnomes must be up to something sinister!!!

Bill

Its when you hear the snickering and clanking noises in the basement that you get worried....!

And given how the weather forecasters around here love to hype things and pick the worst-case model to broadcast, it will probably be 75 degrees and sunny. Happened before! Though there was one time years ago that the weatherman was in the middle of talking about how nice a day it was, and a hand with a note came in from off camera. "Oh, never mind, its a severe rainstorm out there!". We suggested investing in a window in the studio...  Being just east of Lake Erie and on the south edge of Lake Ontario, we do get some oddball weather shifts and lake-effect snow/rain storms here. A few hours ago I was out clearing leaves and it was upper 60s. Now it is 33 degrees.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on November 20, 2016, 02:59:27 AM
My theory exactly Chris...all weather people need a window in their office or should be required to go outside three times a day...the forecasts would improve 1000%  :lolb:

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 20, 2016, 05:04:22 AM
Looks good Chris.  :ThumbsUp: You've got this part of the build coming your way.

In order to taper the teeth, did you angle the headstock slightly? Can't tell from the picture.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 20, 2016, 05:13:15 AM
Looks good Chris.  :ThumbsUp: You've got this part of the build coming your way.

In order to taper the teeth, did you angle the headstock slightly? Can't tell from the picture.

Jim
Thanks - getting the tracks and sprockets to mesh is a major step, and something I have never done before. Closest was a small sprocket for a chain, and that took a number of experiments to get something that worked. Next big challenge on the build will be when I get to the roller chains and the drive chains. Got some ideas on mass producing those parts, will see how many of the ideas fall in the shop vac!

It was such a short shallow taper, I just freehanded the move in as I was pulling the carriage back, then I smoothed it up with a file held to the teeth as it was spinning. The headstock was still square to the bed. If it was a longer surface I would have put the compound slide on and set the angle there.
The tips of the teeth still need to be rounded at the tips, as seen from the side of the sprocket. That will be done (probably tomorrow) with a fine belt on the sander, again just freehand on the sander's table - just knocking off the corners so it is just a swipe on the belt - I tried it with a file, but could tell my fingers would go numb doing that many tips (120, I think).
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 20, 2016, 08:44:29 PM
Time to get the spokes out of the sprockets. I started by turning in the middle area of each disc on one side.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/70v0o9qtj/IMG_8689.jpg)
Then, to make the turned side of the disc still rest flat on the widest part of the arbor, turned a recess to match the size of the hub.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/481t48qh3/IMG_8690.jpg)
Then turned the second side of the discs to match the first side.
With the chuck/arbor moved back over to the rotary table, now laying horizontal again, the first disc was bolted down to the arbor, using the second smaller bolt as a locating pin, which was then removed again. This allows me to repeatably index the sprockets onto the arbor for each operation. The smaller bolt cannot be left in place for the drilling operations, since its head overlaps the inside hole of the spoke opening.

After consulting Don's nifty little spreadsheet on spoke drilling (same one I used on my Corliss build), I calculated the offsets for the corner holes of the spokes. With that information in hand, I centered the rotary table, zeroed the handwheels, and moved out to the position of the inner holes, locked down the mill table, and spot drilled them, advancing the rotary table 60 degrees per hole:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/seh1t41zb/IMG_8695.jpg)
Then went around again and drilled:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ti1652mmf/IMG_8696.jpg)
This operation was repeated for each plate before moving on. Next step was to drill the first of the outer corner holes for the spokes. The mill table was moved over to that position, again using the info from the spreadsheet, and those holes spotted
(https://s5.postimg.cc/hhfq4cf7r/IMG_8697.jpg)
and drilled
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fqwp2uxon/IMG_8698.jpg)
With those done for all the plates, the mill table was moved forward to the opposite side of the spoke, and the second corner hole spotted
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xi8bhbd3b/IMG_8699.jpg)
and drilled
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gizd221vr/IMG_8700.jpg)
like the first side was. It can be a little hard to see the pattern of where the spokes will be in that picture, so here it is with the spoke edges drawn in:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dq65i11jb/IMG_8701.jpg)
So, after drilling the final holes in the other three plates, and drawing the spokes in on them as well to reduce the chances of cutting on the wrong side (which can easily happen, I had to erase one of the lines I drew since IT was in the wrong place!), it will be time to remove the bulk of the material in each triangle. I think I will chain drill a slightly larger hole just inside each line, then come back with the end mill to connect them up and clean up the edges. Otherwise, it is a really long set of cutting for a small end mill. More on that next time...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 21, 2016, 02:30:10 AM
More work on the spokes this evening - finished drilling the corner holes (had to stop and see how they looked in one of the tracks first)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/d1xaz32tj/IMG_8703.jpg)
and then started chain drilling around the arcs at the outer end, keeping the position a bit inside the finished edge so that I did not need to spot drill, if the drill wandered a bit at the start, no problem:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9wcp8vk7b/IMG_8704.jpg)
and then down the sides of the spokes
(https://s5.postimg.cc/b01eyku87/IMG_8706.jpg)
At that point I switched to a 1/8" end mill, and with the position set to stay a bit inside the finished sizes, started by milling the arc at the outer edge
(https://s5.postimg.cc/99idx3cp3/IMG_8707.jpg)
and then same thing down first one side (the table needs to be moved forward to do the other side of the spokes, so I did all of the plates on one side first)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/c4vh3ygp3/IMG_8711.jpg)
and then moved the table back to do the other side, freeing up the remaining chunk in the center
(https://s5.postimg.cc/h4sxbwmbr/IMG_8712.jpg)
Here are the plates with one roughed out, three more to go - enough for one day. Note that there is still a lug around the locator bolt hole - I want to leave that until the outer arcs are milled, since that puts some side force on the part and I dont want to risk it moving, plus it is a simple matter to get the parts back in the same place with it still available.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/t7y8zgxdz/IMG_8714.jpg)
Once all the spokes are roughed, I can trim them to final width, and then will use a corner rounding mill to round over the edges of the spokes and the inner edge of the rim...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on November 21, 2016, 06:50:35 AM
Hi Chris,
 Looking good, think I'll start growing  :popcorn:, at the rate of your updates going to buy it takes to long & it takes too long to catch up! :lolb:

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 21, 2016, 06:58:54 AM
Hi Chris,
 Looking good, think I'll start growing  :popcorn:, at the rate of your updates going to buy it takes to long & it takes too long to catch up! :lolb:

Cheers Kerrin

This forum made me buy it in 5 pound bags!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on November 21, 2016, 07:16:10 AM
Hi Chris,
 At the rate projects updates on here, why are you cutting back, I mean 5 pound bags, that would only last a couple of days!  :stir:

Cheers & keep up the good work,
Kerrin

PS wonder if the bit of 8" copper tube I've got would make a boiler for one of these?
PPS NO must keep on track.....well VERY slowly moving forward
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on November 21, 2016, 02:21:23 PM
Chris, I was going to comment last night but about the time I typed it up the access went down again. Those sprockets look wonderful. You are making it all look too easy though  ;)

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 21, 2016, 04:30:07 PM
Chris, I was going to comment last night but about the time I typed it up the access went down again. Those sprockets look wonderful. You are making it all look too easy though  ;)

Bill
I would not have seen the reply last night anyway, that storm moved in, deep lake effect snow off Lake Ontario with high winds, and power went out for a couple hours. Nice thing about retirement is not having to venture out on first snowfall roads, lots of accidents this morning. Traffic to living room chair was light!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 21, 2016, 09:15:11 PM
Next step on the spokes is to take the openings out to final dimensions. I started with the outer rim, turning the rotary table for each opening:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/s5aqv2rd3/IMG_8715.jpg)
Then ran down one side of each spoke
(https://s5.postimg.cc/n9yrvgg5j/IMG_8717.jpg)
and then the other
(https://s5.postimg.cc/aukc31zpj/IMG_8718.jpg)
and also cleaning out the section where I had the locator bolt - these last operations are light cuts, and I am using the marks on the brass arbor to locate the sprockets.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fv9g32u9z/IMG_8719.jpg)
Last steps are to round over the corners, first on one side of one leg of each spoke,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/udoxceyh3/IMG_8720.jpg)
then moving over and doing the other side and the outer rim in one pass
(https://s5.postimg.cc/95b8uzk07/IMG_8722.jpg)
It is hard to see all the radiuses in the photo with the reflections, will post some more pics later once both sides are all done and out of the mill...




Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on November 22, 2016, 01:21:58 PM
What an excellent job! Chris, this is going to be one magnificent model and the speed that you are going with it, there should be steam by Christmas :lolb:

Cheers

Tom
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 22, 2016, 03:24:30 PM
What an excellent job! Chris, this is going to be one magnificent model and the speed that you are going with it, there should be steam by Christmas :lolb:

Cheers

Tom
Well, this Christmas it will be steam over the hot chocolate, next year it should be pulling the tree out of the woods!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on November 22, 2016, 03:42:51 PM
What an excellent job! Chris, this is going to be one magnificent model and the speed that you are going with it, there should be steam by Christmas :lolb:

Cheers

Tom
Well, this Christmas it will be steam over the hot chocolate, next year it should be pulling the tree out of the woods!

Okay, we will let you off for this Christmas ... I guess there are still a few parts to be made.

Tom
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 22, 2016, 03:57:12 PM
What an excellent job! Chris, this is going to be one magnificent model and the speed that you are going with it, there should be steam by Christmas :lolb:

Cheers

Tom
Well, this Christmas it will be steam over the hot chocolate, next year it should be pulling the tree out of the woods!

Okay, we will let you off for this Christmas ... I guess there are still a few parts to be made.

Tom
Its amazing how fast Lombard was able to build a couple prototypes and be in production on the real thing. It will take me a bit longer!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Johnmcc69 on November 22, 2016, 06:05:08 PM
WOW! Those sprockets look great Chris! Nice work!  :ThumbsUp:

 What parts will be next?

 John
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 23, 2016, 02:11:19 AM
WOW! Those sprockets look great Chris! Nice work!  :ThumbsUp:

 What parts will be next?

 John
When I have the rest of the corners rounded on the spokes (would have been today, but was out doing family stuff all day), I want to make the axles for the sprockets (that will be easy), then will start on the big plates that the track assembly is all held by. In the real thing they were big castings, mine will be built up and silver soldered together from smaller plates. I've been digging through the photos of the real one to figure it all out, and need to model it up in Fusion360. The shapes are pretty straightforward so that should be easy. The plates hold the bearings for the sprocket axles, and include a sliding tensioner adjustment, as well as guides for the roller chain at the bottom inside edge of the tracks. I am planning on building the whole thing from the ground up, so will finish the track assembly (including the roller chain), then the front skis, then on to the drive chains and differential assembly. I'm having a ball with this build so far!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 23, 2016, 02:20:09 AM
Forgot to post the final pics from last evenings session, got the rest of the corners rounded on the first sprocket, few more to go on the others. I am tempted to try running them through the tumbler with the ceramic media to see if the finish comes out like the track plates did, not sure if such large parts will move properly in the bowl, but worth a try.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/x25xx7zt3/IMG_8724.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mj5y81x53/IMG_8727.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 23, 2016, 04:47:03 AM
Great progress Chris.  :ThumbsUp:

That last picture looks like some kind of fancy pendulum for a clock.  :Lol: You'd definitely be the first one on your block to have a clock like that!  You can tell that I've been reading up on clocks lately!

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 23, 2016, 04:52:43 AM
Great progress Chris.  :ThumbsUp:

That last picture looks like some kind of fancy pendulum for a clock.  :Lol: You'd definitely be the first one on your block to have a clock like that!  You can tell that I've been reading up on clocks lately!

Jim
A clock that hauls!

I have called clocks my Gravitic Powered Temporal Engines...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: PJPickard on November 23, 2016, 02:36:04 PM
I have done some very large parts(like about twice as big as the sprocket) and they work fine.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 23, 2016, 03:25:26 PM
I have done some very large parts(like about twice as big as the sprocket) and they work fine.
Good to know -  I will give the sprockets a run in the tumbler as soon as I finish the rounding of the spokes. Thanks!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on November 23, 2016, 10:16:21 PM
Chris, based on how well the tracks turned out, I think the tumbling of the sprockets will have an equally pleasing result. Just my 2 cents.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on November 24, 2016, 03:01:12 AM
Let me say this about that  (hmmm, where have we heard that before  :lolb:) I thought the tracks had that "earth hardened" look when they came out of the tumbler,  as they would on most tracked equipment and thought "man he nailed that " :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:. However,  if it was me,  and it's not,  I think the the sprockets would look good with some "faux patina " , a contrast,  if you will.  But,  that's just my thinking.

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 24, 2016, 03:27:13 AM
Jaysus Cletus--Your the only guy on the forum that likes rust!!!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 24, 2016, 05:11:20 AM
Looking back at the pic of the sprockets and tracks together I think I agree with Cletus. Of course you could of made the sprockets out of 12L14...............that would of taken care of the rusty patina look!  :lolb: The "earth patina" will take care of itself on that first trip down the hill with a load of firewood!

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on November 24, 2016, 06:18:17 AM
Jaysus Cletus--Your the only guy on the forum that likes rust!!!

Oh no. Not alone in that. I would have made it all out of regular steel and let it take on a patina...

But it ain't mine!!

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on November 24, 2016, 12:51:10 PM
Actually, when the first pics of the assembled tracks were posted, I have to say I had a picture in my head of how good they would look ... or how realistic they would look ... with a fine patina of dried mud and atmospheric seasoning. After all, some of the plastic kit guys spend weeks making one of their creations look like that. Mind you, here that does the dusting might not be best pleased with a large chunk of rusty metal on the mantle. 

Just sayin mind.

Tom
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 25, 2016, 02:35:33 PM
The forum finally let me in, its been messed up the last two days...

I did run the sprockets through the tumbler, came out nice too. They will be painted black in the final model, like most of the hauler. The track plates won't, and the sprocket teeth will be bare, or will wear through very quick anyway. A few trips around the driveway and yard should patina things quickly, as will the steam oil combined with the dirt.

If the site stays alive for a while I'll get some more pics up...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 25, 2016, 03:01:25 PM
I got the rest of the sprocket spoke corners rounded off, and gave them a run through the tumbler with the cermic media to knock off the gloss like I did with the track plates.

For those who like real patina on a model, here is something to shoot for - this is what the real thing looks like:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/r9xk1c93b/Real_Track_Side_View.jpg)

Here are the sprockets before
(https://s5.postimg.cc/p09fql05j/IMG_8731.jpg)
and after tumbling. The difference can be hard to see in the pics, but in person it is a big difference
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6lywmlnuv/IMG_8733.jpg)
Here they are in place on the tracks - everything runs smooth when rolling them back and forth on the table by hand. As you can see I have added the axles as well - they are a little long, will be trimmed back when the bearings are done. The back axle is a lot longer, since it will get the drive chain sprocket on the inner end.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/b94yodb7r/IMG_8734.jpg)

Now, the next parts will be the vertical casting plates that hole the track assembly together. There are two per track, mirror images of each other, to hold either ends of the axles and also the roller chains at the bottom. The main axle back to the frame of the hauler comes through the middle, and the tracks can pivot on that axle to match the terrain. So far I have 3d modelled the casting plates along with the sprockets and full tracks.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xbk0d2xvr/Lombard_Post_Card.jpg)
I printed out the plan view of the casting plates actual size of the model so I could pick bar stock and decide how to make them. Currently, I am thinking that the main part will be from 1/8" x 1" steel, with a thicker piece shaped and silver soldered on to make the top flanges, and then the lower horizontal features will be soldered on as well. The alternative would be to carve the whole thing out of one block, but that would be a whole lot more work, and probably would get some warp from the internal stresses in the metal when carving so much out of one side. In piecing it up, each part will be held with small screws till silver soldered, then the screw heads trimmed off. The holes where the axles come through will be lined with bronze bearings, like the original was done. Should be fun, this is where the tracks really come together.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: vcutajar on November 25, 2016, 04:07:17 PM
That is a real great result Chris.  I see you are getting used to Fusion 360.

Vince
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 25, 2016, 04:33:08 PM
That is a real great result Chris.  I see you are getting used to Fusion 360.

Vince
Its a great software package, a few things I wish they could add, but am having great fun with it. Having done some 3d animation work in the past helps with the concepts.

Today I have started cutting down the bar stock for the central plates.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 25, 2016, 05:25:06 PM
The sprockets came out nice Chris. Tumbling took the edge off, but there's still a nice contrast with the tracks.

The 3d drawing really shows how this is all going to look when completed.

That's a great picture of the real thing. I'm sure they're a lot bigger in real life, but the cotter pins sure look delicate, considering the beating they take.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 25, 2016, 06:31:49 PM
The sprockets came out nice Chris. Tumbling took the edge off, but there's still a nice contrast with the tracks.

The 3d drawing really shows how this is all going to look when completed.

That's a great picture of the real thing. I'm sure they're a lot bigger in real life, but the cotter pins sure look delicate, considering the beating they take.

Jim

The wear they take is probably why they are on on the outside ends, so they can be replaced if needed if they get too worn. They are pretty big though:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/elbmo10hz/lombard18.jpg)
My model ones are fairly teensy, it will be interesting to see how they hold up. Having the washer there helps, but there is still going to be wear on them. For the time, and the fact that he was making most of this up as he went, its amazing to see how sophistocated Lombards engines were.


Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 25, 2016, 06:42:08 PM
Some good progress on the vertical track casting plates (not sure what else to call them, that is how they are named in the Lombard parts catalog) today. I started out by cutting some 1/8"x1" 303 steel bar stock to length and milling the ends square and to size:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rk9nyfd3b/IMG_8735.jpg)
and then marked out the locations of the upper edges, and rough-sawed them to remove the bulk of the metal
(https://s5.postimg.cc/r8s7lnwnb/IMG_8736.jpg)
Here they are being milled down to size - a parallel bar is underneath to keep the parts level in the vise.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dgdsq15vr/IMG_8737.jpg)
on to the second section
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8vw7oubk7/IMG_8738.jpg)
then a thin pass on the top to remove the rounded corners
(https://s5.postimg.cc/v93ybnchz/IMG_8739.jpg)
before notching one end for the end bearing cap to come later
(https://s5.postimg.cc/l0bh5tog7/IMG_8740.jpg)
and the other end for the end cap
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fq6iej47b/IMG_8743.jpg)
Here are a couple of the plates set into the approximate position that they will be in the final assembly. The axle bearing for the left end and the center pivot bearing will be held on seperate bearing blocks that bolt down onto this plate, with tensioning bolts on each.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qea9dde6f/IMG_8744.jpg)
And the family shot of the 4 plates so far.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/cyn8nx5on/IMG_8745.jpg)
Next up will be to make the wider trim pieces that go along the top edges and then the horizontal plates for the bottom edges.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Captain Jerry on November 25, 2016, 07:07:49 PM
Chris, "track frames" is the common term in dozer circles.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 25, 2016, 07:23:45 PM
Chris, "track frames" is the common term in dozer circles.
Thanks! Adding to my vocabulary.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: RayW on November 25, 2016, 07:43:39 PM
Hi Chris. Great work so far and following with interest. If you find your tracks slipping in the mud, you could always try this idea seen in Norway on a small Ransomes MG6 crawler tractor!

Regards

Ray
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 25, 2016, 08:06:19 PM
Hi Chris. Great work so far and following with interest. If you find your tracks slipping in the mud, you could always try this idea seen in Norway on a small Ransomes MG6 crawler tractor!

Regards

Ray
I love it! Lets see, four horseshoes per horsepower in the engine...  :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on November 25, 2016, 08:39:21 PM
Glad you were able to post an update Chris. Still checking in and following along as I am able to get onto the forum. It's been pretty good today so far, just the occasional glitch. I think the sprockets look just fine after tumbling too!!  Still plenty of contrast in my opinion.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: fumopuc on November 25, 2016, 09:36:35 PM
Hi Chris, I am following along quietly, great show.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 26, 2016, 03:17:53 AM
Glad you were able to post an update Chris. Still checking in and following along as I am able to get onto the forum. It's been pretty good today so far, just the occasional glitch. I think the sprockets look just fine after tumbling too!!  Still plenty of contrast in my opinion.

Bill

Hi Chris, I am following along quietly, great show.

Thanks guys! I've had some good progress on it lately, may have to take a day off and let all the little nicks and cuts in the fingertips from handling all the trim parts today - the end mill leaves some sharp edges! Next post shows the parts I mean...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on November 26, 2016, 03:19:45 AM
Great work Chris!  I'm still following along!   :popcorn:

That is, when the forum lets me in...  :'(
Kim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 26, 2016, 03:41:57 AM
Chris---You are a magician. I love the stuff you are doing. Looking at the tracks fully assembled has dredged up an old memory. When I was a young kid, I had a favourite uncle, my Uncle Jimmy, who eventually would be the one to teach me to drink whiskey and play the fiddle---but I digress----I was at my Grandparents house, and my uncle had the timing chain off some old car he had torn apart. He had cleaned all of the oil and dirt off it and was letting me play with it, driving it around the kitchen table. I was absolutely entranced!!

I had never before seen such wonderful mechanical perfection. I remember asking if he could build me a toy bulldozer with timing chains for tracks, but he said that no, he couldn’t do that because he wouldn’t be able to make the sprockets for it.

Uncle Jimmy has been gone now for many, many years, and that memory is probably more than 60 years old now.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 26, 2016, 03:44:47 AM
On to making the edge trim parts for the track frames, which are slightly thicker parts that go around the top edge of the frames to simulate the shape that the castings had on the real hauler. I could have milled the frames from a thicker piece, but there are two places where the track tensioning rods go that will need holes drilled/tapped. Both places are too far in to reach with normal drills/taps. And, since there are other parts on the bottom edge that will need to be silver soldered on as well, I decided to do all the edge trim as seperate pieces. They will be screwed in place for soldering, then the screws filed off. And, since the shapes dictate that I cannot reach the vertical parts for drilling/tapping, those two places will have the trim pieces milled from a wider bar so they can be screwed in from the top.

Hope all that makes sense, it will when you see the pictures...

So, I started with making the T shaped parts that sits next to the center axle bearing block. I rough cut some chunks off of the bar, chucked each up in the mill vise. Since they were slightly oversize and rough cut, alignment was not an issue. First step was to mill the top flat, then take a pass on either end to square them up and leave the ends the correct length.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/h1s1s83yf/IMG_8746.jpg)
The the parts were turned over, height set with a parallel bar underneath, and the upright of the T milled in, the correct distance from one end so that the part will reach the lower horizontal rail.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/thorlyxaf/IMG_8747.jpg)
Here is one of the parts set in place against the track frame:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ezrkdz5zb/IMG_8748.jpg)
And here are all four of the T's complete, two sitting as they will against the frames.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/53qhec07b/IMG_8749.jpg)
Next up were the U shaped pieces that will hold the tension adjusters for the front sprockets. To start, a chunk of spare bar left over from track plate making was clamped in the vise level, and a slot milled in it the same depth and width as the tab on the track frames. I was able to fit two of the parts in each piece of bar.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/y7epakoav/IMG_8750.jpg)
Here is the track frame tab being test fit in one of the slots
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gimyiycjr/IMG_8751.jpg)
Once all 4 were slotted and then rough cut out of the bars, each was slipped over the tab to hold it vertical in the vise
(https://s5.postimg.cc/j18njmy9z/IMG_8753.jpg)
and the depth set to mill off the top surface
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5yd10d81z/IMG_8755.jpg)
down to dimension
(https://s5.postimg.cc/o2g1l05qf/IMG_8756.jpg)
then it was slid over to the side to mill the side of the part to size
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ifjonj37r/IMG_8757.jpg)
and here are all the T's and U's milled out, ready to go:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5bj67yhhj/IMG_8758.jpg)
Next step will be to cut/trim lengths of the bar at the bottom of the photo to length to fill in the rest of the edges, then drill/tap for the screws to hold them in place for silver soldering...

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 26, 2016, 03:46:07 AM
Great work Chris!  I'm still following along!   :popcorn:

That is, when the forum lets me in...  :'(
Kim

Its been no fun this week, missing our forum-fixes! I hope it gets sorted soon.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 26, 2016, 03:49:57 AM
Chris---You are a magician. I love the stuff you are doing. Looking at the tracks fully assembled has dredged up an old memory. When I was a young kid, I had a favourite uncle, my Uncle Jimmy, who eventually would be the one to teach me to drink whiskey and play the fiddle---but I digress----I was at my Grandparents house, and my uncle had the timing chain off some old car he had torn apart. He had cleaned all of the oil and dirt off it and was letting me play with it, driving it around the kitchen table. I was absolutely entranced!!

I had never before seen such wonderful mechanical perfection. I remember asking if he could build me a toy bulldozer with timing chains for tracks, but he said that no, he couldn’t do that because he wouldn’t be able to make the sprockets for it.

Uncle Jimmy has been gone now for many, many years, and that memory is probably more than 60 years old now.---Brian
I was kind of the same way, loved to take apart things and see how they were made, just loved seeing all the finely made metal parts inside things. Just not the same with plastic these days. I still love old machines and instruments, have a small collection of antique navigation instruments, sextants, octants, etc, mainly from the earlier wood and brass days. One later one is out of a B-17 bomber, I opened it up once to see the inside, it is a marvel of super tight tolerance gears and levers. Just amazing stuff.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 26, 2016, 05:14:16 AM
Good progress Chris. I'm still trying to get my head wrapped around the size of the full scale Lombard. Could you tell me what the height is from the bottom track to the top track where it goes around one of the sprockets?

After going back and forth.............and forth and back..............I finally got smart and printed out the picture, from the last page, of the side view of the full size tracks and your 3D rendering. Way better! It's much easier to see where the parts fit into the picture.........literally!  :)

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 26, 2016, 05:33:18 AM
Good progress Chris. I'm still trying to get my head wrapped around the size of the full scale Lombard. Could you tell me what the height is from the bottom track to the top track where it goes around one of the sprockets?

After going back and forth.............and forth and back..............I finally got smart and printed out the picture, from the last page, of the side view of the full size tracks and your 3D rendering. Way better! It's much easier to see where the parts fit into the picture.........literally!  :)

Jim

Lets see, the hauler is 30 feet long and 8 feet 2 inches wide and 9 feet tall according to the spec sheet. Weight 19 tons.  The sprocket axles are about 5 feet apart, and the tracks are a bit over 3 feet bottom to top.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 26, 2016, 11:51:15 PM
Moving along on the top edge trim pieces, I sawed out the thin bars to rough length, milled the ends square, and then was ready to trim the middle bars to be a snug fit in the center span.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/z6dwf7c3r/IMG_8759.jpg)
The bars on the ends I will leave a little long till they are bolted down, then trim them flush while in place - easier than all the measuring back and forth.
With the help of a handful of parallel clamps and one small bar clamp, I held the first set of bars in place on one of the track frames, with the back edge of the bars flush with the back edge of the frame (done while it was laying on the table), the track frame was held in the mill vise and the bars spot drilled for some temporary 2-56 screws.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kogp77ksn/IMG_8760.jpg)
Then they were drilled for the clearance and tap holes
(https://s5.postimg.cc/eosy3k007/IMG_8764.jpg)
and then the holes were tapped for some short 2-56 cap head screws to hold them all in place.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3qholdbev/IMG_8766.jpg)
After silver soldering everything in place, the socket heads will be cut off flush to the bars. Next step though will be to mill off the overhanging ends of the bars so I can attach the end parts. Then I will start on the roller chain guide bars that go along the bottom edge of the track frames.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 29, 2016, 12:25:54 AM
Okay, catching up on the last couple days, I had left off with the top edge rails overhanging the end a little, so those were milled back flush
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fhnok45xj/IMG_8768.jpg)
and then it was time to drill the end for the temporary bolts to hold the end parts on. Since the plates would be too whippy by themselves when stood on end, I clamped all four together to stiffen them up, then drilled/tapped the ends:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ljvbaludj/IMG_8771.jpg)
Here are the parts so far:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8gzorc45j/IMG_8776.jpg)
Next up was to make the bearing block assemblies for the front end of the track frames. They are in two halves, with a thin bronze bearing around the sprocket axle. I started with two lengths of steel bar stock, long enough to make 4 pairs altogether, clamped together in the mill vise, and milled out the gaps between the bearings.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bchdbxxjb/IMG_8777.jpg)
and took down the top surfaces to the desired height
(https://s5.postimg.cc/lb2byf6yv/IMG_8779.jpg)
The final shape will have a half round on the top portion, but with the flanges out the sides it was a bit much to try milling the rounded portion directly, so I took off the bulk of the metal at a 45 degree angle, using a wood angle block to set the part in the vise. I positioned each section with the bottom corner of the step at the top of the vise, so I could set the cutter height once and do all the milling.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ovy7hnbif/IMG_8781.jpg)
Here are the two bars with the 45's milled in
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rejwibx8n/IMG_8783.jpg)
With the bars done, I went back to mill in the matching recess in the end of the track frame. Started by milling in the recess for the flat top of the bearing block to rest against
(https://s5.postimg.cc/yj1prd4hz/IMG_8785.jpg)
and then used the same angle block to tilt the track frames up to mill the angled part of the recess
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6k7k0i2vb/IMG_8786.jpg)
and here is how it looks with the bearing block held against it:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ft9qambrb/IMG_8787.jpg)
Then the bearing blocks had all the mounting bolt holes drilled
(https://s5.postimg.cc/o01q271tz/IMG_8788.jpg)
and the corners of all but 4 of the end parts were rounded off on the belt sander. The remaining flats were left to mate to the track frames.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/sn7s3yp6v/IMG_8789.jpg)
and here are all the parts of the track frames so far all screwed together.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kiznz82rr/IMG_8790.jpg)
with a closer look at the bearing blocks. They will be drilled for the axle holes after the silver soldering is done, in case there is any mis-alignment during that step.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/l9wziquiv/IMG_8791.jpg)
That finishes up the tops of the track frames for now. Next I will start on the flanges at the bottom of the track frames, once all those are on I will silver solder all the joints.

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on November 29, 2016, 12:43:27 AM
Hmmmm ... Santa may want to use those tracks on his sleigh ... just sayin.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 29, 2016, 12:48:41 AM
Hmmmm ... Santa may want to use those tracks on his sleigh ... just sayin.

He can borrow them if I can get time in his workshop!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on November 29, 2016, 12:58:47 AM
What does he have in his shop that you don't ... besides friendly and hard working elves?
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on November 29, 2016, 01:35:45 AM
Chris I am just catching up on your build and buddy that is awesome........ :praise2:

Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 29, 2016, 01:43:09 AM
What does he have in his shop that you don't ... besides friendly and hard working elves?
Elves are good to have around your shop. Gnomes, on the other hand, are malicious little buggers!!!----
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 29, 2016, 02:03:26 AM
What does he have in his shop that you don't ... besides friendly and hard working elves?
Elves are good to have around your shop. Gnomes, on the other hand, are malicious little buggers!!!----
That's why its so important to make the elves favorite cookies, put out little glasses of milk, and make them comfy chairs...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 29, 2016, 02:03:45 AM
Chris I am just catching up on your build and buddy that is awesome........ :praise2:

Don
Thanks Don!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on November 29, 2016, 02:10:43 AM
Hmmm ... Ya learn something every day.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: GailinNM on November 29, 2016, 12:46:32 AM
And good Elves are hard to find this time of year with so many of them working up North for the season. Really have to bribe them a bit to keep them around.
Gail in NM
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 29, 2016, 02:48:50 AM
And good Elves are hard to find this time of year with so many of them working up North for the season. Really have to bribe them a bit to keep them around.
Gail in NM
Hint. They love mint chocolate chip cookies.  Trust me on this one.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Captain Jerry on November 29, 2016, 04:23:06 AM
Chris, the track frames are looking great.  Do you always get things right on the first try?  That could be one of the reasons that you make such good progress but doesn't that leave your scrap box a little empty?  Mine on the other hand is well stocked with "not quites."

But seriously, I have been looking at the plans and photos of the track assemblies and I am not able to confirm or rule out the existence of any struts, braces, webs, or connection between the two sides of the track frames.  The boss that encloses center pivot shaft that is bolted to the top of both sides seems to be the only solid connection.  The only other connections are the sprocket shafts.  Is that the way that you see it as well, or am I looking at this all wrong?   It seems odd to me because the track frames on modern dozers are a one piece casting with webs between the two sides.  I don't really wear belts and suspenders at the same time but it seems to me that the frames could use some stiffening.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 29, 2016, 04:50:19 AM
Chris, the track frames are looking great.  Do you always get things right on the first try?  That could be one of the reasons that you make such good progress but doesn't that leave your scrap box a little empty?  Mine on the other hand is well stocked with "not quites."

But seriously, I have been looking at the plans and photos of the track assemblies and I am not able to confirm or rule out the existence of any struts, braces, webs, or connection between the two sides of the track frames.  The boss that encloses center pivot shaft that is bolted to the top of both sides seems to be the only solid connection.  The only other connections are the sprocket shafts.  Is that the way that you see it as well, or am I looking at this all wrong?   It seems odd to me because the track frames on modern dozers are a one piece casting with webs between the two sides.  I don't really wear belts and suspenders at the same time but it seems to me that the frames could use some stiffening.
Oh no, my scrap boxES are definitely loaded. Some get reused on smaller parts, some as ballast in the rc boats. I mafe half a dozen extra track pads, needed them all. So far no goofs on the track frames, but not done yet!

Great minds think alike. I also have spent a lot of time looking through every photo of the track frames at the museum, cannot find any sign of any spacers other than the central pivot. The sprocket will hold the bearing blocks apart, but it seems like that is not enough for all the stresses that they would experience. I am planning on putting a spacer block down lower in the middle, with a set of bolts through from the inside where they won't show. Its possible that there was nothing else but I doubt it, but during the restoration they never had to take that assembly apart so no pics. Fortunately for me they did full teardowns on most everything else. I won't be getting up to Maine till spring, so won't be able to see for myself till then. Be sure I will be taking gons of pics from every angle I can! Down the top between the frame playes is top on my list. Its very possible that they had a horizontal plate between the roller guides. Time will tell.

Nice to have another set of eyes on this, if I am missing something feel free to sing out!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 29, 2016, 06:36:43 PM
Started in on the bottom flanges of the track frames this morning, cut some 1/2" x 1/8" bar stock to length and milled the ends square, then drilled for the mounting holes in the side and bottom:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/hlghaqz9j/IMG_8792.jpg)
likewise for the narrow strips that will form the edge guide for the roller chain
(https://s5.postimg.cc/583n3u9l3/IMG_8793.jpg)
Here are the parts tapped and screwed together for a test fit:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/sau630b2f/IMG_8794.jpg)
The last parts to make before soldering it all together are the box beams that sit on top of this flange...

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on November 29, 2016, 06:41:04 PM
Y'all stand by, he's getting ready to "flux his muscles" :lolb: :lolb:

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 29, 2016, 06:46:10 PM
Y'all stand by, he's getting ready to "flux his muscles" :lolb: :lolb:

Cletus

Okay, thats enough cookies for you, mister. The sugar high is getting to you!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on November 29, 2016, 05:15:30 PM
Perhaps he has been sniffing the "Special" BBQ sauce again ...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 29, 2016, 08:24:33 PM
Perhaps he has been sniffing the "Special" BBQ sauce again ...
Ah, yes, clear sauce, comes in a mason jar...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on November 29, 2016, 06:40:23 PM
Y'all are just amazed that I came up with a funny like that  :lolb: :lolb:. wagnmkr, I said no, no , no more I don't  (sniff) it no more , I'm tired of waking up on the floor , no thank you please,  it only makes me sneeze, then it makes it hard to find the door  :lolb: :lolb:. Bettles  1970 something  :lolb: :lolb: Remember there is only two kinds of "shine ", Sun and Moon  :lolb: :old: :lolb:

Cletus

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on November 29, 2016, 06:45:58 PM
Chris,  if you don't mind I'd like to share this with your faithful followers,  perhaps it will help with their shop progress :
http://www.bettycrocker.com/recipes/mint-chocolate-chip-cookies/22bebeda-ea36-441a-9909-ae78409d6da6.

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 30, 2016, 01:07:11 AM
Chris,  if you don't mind I'd like to share this with your faithful followers,  perhaps it will help with their shop progress :
http://www.bettycrocker.com/recipes/mint-chocolate-chip-cookies/22bebeda-ea36-441a-9909-ae78409d6da6.

Cletus
Not bad, but I think mine would be better, I'll have to dig out the recipe and see if the elves will let me post it. Brown sugar, dark chocolate chips, and mint baking emulsion makes a big difference. The elves can tell!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 30, 2016, 01:36:56 AM
Chris,  if you don't mind I'd like to share this with your faithful followers,  perhaps it will help with their shop progress :
http://www.bettycrocker.com/recipes/mint-chocolate-chip-cookies/22bebeda-ea36-441a-9909-ae78409d6da6 (http://www.bettycrocker.com/recipes/mint-chocolate-chip-cookies/22bebeda-ea36-441a-9909-ae78409d6da6).

Cletus
Not bad, but I think mine would be better, I'll have to dig out the recipe and see if the elves will let me post it. Brown sugar, dark chocolate chips, and mint baking emulsion makes a big difference. The elves can tell!

Okay, the elves gave permission (as long as I made them some more of them) to pass along the official Shop-Elf-Almagamated-Union mint chocolate chip recipe. Guaranteed to turn annoying shop gnomes into helpful shop elves in 6 short weeks. Or not. Your milage may vary. Professional lathe driver on a closed course, do not attempt in your home shop. And whatever other legal-BS you put at the bottom of an ad...

2 Teaspoons of LorAnn mint baking emulsion (NOT alcohol based extract, which bakes off with no flavor)
1-1/2 Cups all-purpose flour
1/2 Cup firmly packed brown sugar
1 stick butter
1/4 Cup sugar
1/4 Cup Egg Beaters
1 teaspoon vanilla extract
1/2 teaspoon backing soda
1/2 teaspoon salt 1 cup dark chocolate chips

Mix all except chips till blended, stir in chips. Place by spoonful on baking sheet, bake at 375 for 8 to 10 minutes. Serve to shop elves when cool.

 :stir:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on November 30, 2016, 03:18:06 AM
That all sounds great..... until I came to the "EggBeaters". !!!! Ugh.

Do you suppose the elves would riot if real eggs were used???

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on November 30, 2016, 01:22:01 AM
Pete, 1/4 cup of egg beaters should be about the same as one egg. I would do the same as you, meaning a real egg. The shop gnomes will just have to live with it :)

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 30, 2016, 01:57:27 AM
Either way works!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on November 30, 2016, 05:32:00 AM
OK!! Too late tonight, but tomorrow is certainly cookie day! I don't think we've ever made a mint chocolate chip cookie....


Cletus.... you're not in that eastern part of the state that's burning are you? God help those folks....

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 30, 2016, 03:38:46 AM
Wow - a bunch of posts about food, and none from Zee.   :LickLips:

First time for everything!


As for the model (remember the model?), I got the first of the box beams milled out tonight, more on that and pics tomorrow...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on November 30, 2016, 05:51:07 AM
Engine? I thought this was the Cookie Channel...

I've actually been a bit worried about Zee... has anyone heard from him?

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on November 30, 2016, 12:43:36 PM
Chris, I remember the build; you keep working and we'll bake the cookies. Pete, we're safe, that's over in East Tennessee, however, just south of us was hit with tornados last night; bad all around. Zee is fine. He is head over hills in cleaning out for his home and shop addition to start in January and seems to quite overwhelmed by it all. I also suspect T is pushing him pretty hard :mischief:. Carry on with the regularly scheduled programming Chris.

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on November 30, 2016, 03:47:11 PM
That's good to hear that every one is OK. Thanks Cletus!

Carry on, Chris!

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on November 30, 2016, 09:09:08 PM
The box beam sections are started. Began with 4 lengths of some 5/16" square 303 bar, cut and milled the ends square
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mn1nhcavb/IMG_8796.jpg)
then figured out the offsets from one end to drill stop holes at the ends of each slot, and drilled them
(https://s5.postimg.cc/p5nci0wlj/IMG_8797.jpg)
and started milling out the centers of the slots, using several shallow passes with a 1/8" end mill
(https://s5.postimg.cc/o4rp6n4zr/IMG_8798.jpg)
Here is the first one with the slots milled:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5dprwhafb/IMG_8799.jpg)
Once all 4 bars have the slots cut, I will go back and take a cut off the top/bottom of the bars to thin them down a little, and also file the ends of the slots square.


And Pete, still waiting to see how your gnomes like the cookies!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on December 01, 2016, 01:07:01 AM
Chris, these are really starting to take shape just as the track did. What a joy to follow along!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 01, 2016, 01:27:44 AM
Chris, these are really starting to take shape just as the track did. What a joy to follow along!!

Bill
Thanks Bill!

This evening I got the tops of a couple of the box beams milled down a little thinner, should be able to solder everything up later in the week.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Johnmcc69 on December 01, 2016, 03:39:50 AM
 :popcorn:
Looking great Chris!!!

 john
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 01, 2016, 08:27:00 PM
:popcorn:
Looking great Chris!!!

 john

Thanks John!  Pass the popcorn...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 01, 2016, 08:32:09 PM
I got the rest of the box beams thinned down (.025 off top and bottom edges),
(https://s5.postimg.cc/uhu9wk7wn/IMG_8800.jpg)
then the slot ends filed square and bolted on to the frames
(https://s5.postimg.cc/djv9apyiv/IMG_8802.jpg)
Here is one set into the track to show about where it will sit:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/j9bhv14p3/IMG_8803.jpg)
They are ready for a degreasing washdown, then silver soldering all the joints. Once that is done, the bolt heads will be cut off flush...


Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on December 01, 2016, 09:00:07 PM
Chris, those last pictures really help a lot seeing how all this will work together. Really nice!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 01, 2016, 09:15:13 PM
Chris, those last pictures really help a lot seeing how all this will work together. Really nice!!

Bill

Thanks Bill - it is getting close to where I can push the tracks around while making steam engine noises.... Wait, did I type that out loud? ...  :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on December 01, 2016, 07:40:20 PM
As long as you wasn't wearing bib overalls and a bandanna around your neck while making those sounds  :lolb:  Work looks great.

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 02, 2016, 02:34:17 AM
As long as you wasn't wearing bib overalls and a bandanna around your neck while making those sounds  :lolb:  Work looks great.

Cletus
Nope, not wearing that... As far as you know anyway...! Um, err...  :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Captain Jerry on December 02, 2016, 01:27:47 AM
Chug.......Chug......Chug.....Chug....Chug...Chug..Chug..Chug.. :DrinkPint:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 02, 2016, 05:37:42 AM
Looking good. I'm following along with my drawing and pictures!

If you have the time, when you do the soldering could you expand on that process? It still seems a little like "Black Art" to me!  :shrug:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 02, 2016, 04:51:10 PM
Looking good. I'm following along with my drawing and pictures!

If you have the time, when you do the soldering could you expand on that process? It still seems a little like "Black Art" to me!  :shrug:

Jim
Will do, what I can - can't take pics during the soldering itself (torch is hard to hold in my teeth) but will try and get some during the prep/cleanup. I learned iit from Kozo's book on the New Shay. Main things are a close fit of the parts (still want just a small gap for the solder to flow into), clean parts well, apply flux, I use the wire form of the silver solder so cut a small length and put at the joint, heat with torch from other side of the parts (not direct flame on the flux/solder side) till the flux melts then the solder melts into the joint (if flux all dries up and gone before the solder melts then you need a bigger torch nozzle), let it cool, soak in pickle solution (not real pickles!, mild acid) to loosen the crusted flux, then rinse and wire brush clean. If parts don't fall apart then you did good. I use a Seivert torch, which has a variety of tip sizes for different size parts (full copper boiler needs a LOT of heat, small parts use small nozzle), which hooks up to a 20 pound propane grill tank with a regulator that screws into the tank. Works very well.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 02, 2016, 05:11:01 PM
Looking good. I'm following along with my drawing and pictures!

If you have the time, when you do the soldering could you expand on that process? It still seems a little like "Black Art" to me!  :shrug:

Jim
Will do, what I can - can't take pics during the soldering itself (torch is hard to hold in my teeth) but will try and get some during the prep/cleanup. I learned iit from Kozo's book on the New Shay. Main things are a close fit of the parts (still want just a small gap for the solder to flow into), clean parts well, apply flux, I use the wire form of the silver solder so cut a small length and put at the joint, heat with torch from other side of the parts (not direct flame on the flux/solder side) till the flux melts then the solder melts into the joint (if flux all dries up and gone before the solder melts then you need a bigger torch nozzle), let it cool, soak in pickle solution (not real pickles!, mild acid) to loosen the crusted flux, then rinse and wire brush clean. If parts don't fall apart then you did good. I use a Seivert torch, which has a variety of tip sizes for different size parts (full copper boiler needs a LOT of heat, small parts use small nozzle), which hooks up to a 20 pound propane grill tank with a regulator that screws into the tank. Works very well.

Thanks Chris. You've covered a lot of bases with this post. I've had Kozo's book on my Amazon Wishlist for some time now..........guess I better get it ordered.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 02, 2016, 06:49:21 PM
Looking good. I'm following along with my drawing and pictures!

If you have the time, when you do the soldering could you expand on that process? It still seems a little like "Black Art" to me!  :shrug:

Jim
Will do, what I can - can't take pics during the soldering itself (torch is hard to hold in my teeth) but will try and get some during the prep/cleanup. I learned iit from Kozo's book on the New Shay. Main things are a close fit of the parts (still want just a small gap for the solder to flow into), clean parts well, apply flux, I use the wire form of the silver solder so cut a small length and put at the joint, heat with torch from other side of the parts (not direct flame on the flux/solder side) till the flux melts then the solder melts into the joint (if flux all dries up and gone before the solder melts then you need a bigger torch nozzle), let it cool, soak in pickle solution (not real pickles!, mild acid) to loosen the crusted flux, then rinse and wire brush clean. If parts don't fall apart then you did good. I use a Seivert torch, which has a variety of tip sizes for different size parts (full copper boiler needs a LOT of heat, small parts use small nozzle), which hooks up to a 20 pound propane grill tank with a regulator that screws into the tank. Works very well.

Thanks Chris. You've covered a lot of bases with this post. I've had Kozo's book on my Amazon Wishlist for some time now..........guess I better get it ordered.

Jim
You can get the Kozo books from the publisher, Village Press, at list price. Lots of sellers on Amazon charge more. His New Shay has the most info, covers more techniques than the first Shay book. Even if you don't build the loco, you can get a lot of information.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 02, 2016, 11:24:18 PM
OK!! Too late tonight, but tomorrow is certainly cookie day! I don't think we've ever made a mint chocolate chip cookie....


Cletus.... you're not in that eastern part of the state that's burning are you? God help those folks....

Pete
So, how did the shop gnomes like the cookies?   :LickLips:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on December 02, 2016, 10:00:17 PM
OK!! Too late tonight, but tomorrow is certainly cookie day! I don't think we've ever made a mint chocolate chip cookie....


Cletus.... you're not in that eastern part of the state that's burning are you? God help those folks....

Pete
So, how did the shop gnomes like the cookies?   :LickLips:

 :embarassed: Discovered we didn't have any mint in the house. Will get some tomorrow when we go to the store. Today we baked a "Browned Butter" cake...  ^-^

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 03, 2016, 12:33:36 AM
OK!! Too late tonight, but tomorrow is certainly cookie day! I don't think we've ever made a mint chocolate chip cookie....


Cletus.... you're not in that eastern part of the state that's burning are you? God help those folks....

Pete
So, how did the shop gnomes like the cookies?   :LickLips:

 :embarassed: Discovered we didn't have any mint in the house. Will get some tomorrow when we go to the store. Today we baked a "Browned Butter" cake...  ^-^

Pete
If you can find it, get the baking emulsion mint, the regular mint extract in alcohol bakes off and leaves little flavor.

And who knows, maybe the cake will work on the gnomes too!   :stir:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on December 03, 2016, 02:03:14 AM
Well, the shop gnomes, and the elves, around here sure don't lose any weight this time of year! :lolb:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 03, 2016, 02:09:01 AM
Well, the shop gnomes, and the elves, around here sure don't lose any weight this time of year! :lolb:

Pete

Not here either! Keeping busy with winter leagues and clearing snow helps, but the treats are so GOOD!  :LickLips:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 03, 2016, 02:19:33 AM
The silver soldering on the track frames is done, took several sessions to do all the sides since solder prefers to flow downhill into the joints (that darn antigrav unit is acting up again), so I did all the joints on the long top side with the rtacks angled, then soaked in the pickle solution about a half hour then wire brushed them to clean them up enough to do the base, then again to do the overhanging lip at the bottom.

In the past, most of the silver soldering work I've done has been on copper and brass, and I used Sparex solution for the pickling. That solution does not like steel though (used Sparex can make a nice copper plating solution onto the steel however), so I have tried another method I read about on the net, just vinegar with a teaspoon of salt per cup of vinegar. It did work very well on removing the hardened flux, another new item this time, I am using Tenacity 5 flux rather than the Harris white flux I've used in the past, seems to last longer under heat. The vinegar acts slower, but is much more mild to be around. I have the parts in it overnight to see how much it can clean them up with a longer soak time. From what I've read, it should work fairly well.

Hmmm... got some time to kill, might as well do some quality assurance testing on a few more cookies...  :LickLips:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on December 03, 2016, 03:08:50 AM
Put your parts in a pan of water and bring it to a full boil; the flux come right off. I can see the advantages of a pickle if you were going to do more soldering on a copper or brass part but so far the boiling water has worked just fine for me.

Your parts are looking great BTW.
Dave
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 03, 2016, 03:10:51 AM
Put your parts in a pan of water and bring it to a full boil; the flux come right off. I can see the advantages of a pickle if you were going to do more soldering on a copper or brass part but so far the boiling water has worked just fine for me.

Your parts are looking great BTW.
Dave
I'll give that a try on then next parts I solder, see how it compares. Thanks!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on December 03, 2016, 03:18:53 AM
I've found that soaking steel in water just make rust, especially in the cracks you  want the filler to enter. Boiling water is much faster, much more complete and, if you have your air hose handy, dries almost instantly. Blowing the water out of the cracks is the way to do it. The residual heat makes for a complete dry.

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 03, 2016, 03:29:25 AM
I've found that soaking steel in water just make rust, especially in the cracks you  want the filler to enter. Boiling water is much faster, much more complete and, if you have your air hose handy, dries almost instantly. Blowing the water out of the cracks is the way to do it. The residual heat makes for a complete dry.

Pete
In this case, 303 won't rust like that, but using very hot water is great on lots of stuff, does a great job on cleaning off pistol actions, like you say it pretty much dries itself.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on December 03, 2016, 03:41:03 AM
Well, shoot. I completely forgot that this was stainless.... :embarassed:

Forgive me sire!

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 03, 2016, 04:06:53 AM
Well, shoot. I completely forgot that this was stainless.... :embarassed:

Forgive me sire!

Pete

Well, to be perfectly honest, the thin edge strips are just normal tool steel, since it was the only stuff I could find in the thin and narrow sizes. So, thou arte forgivene...!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 03, 2016, 10:45:58 PM
Well, I left the track frames in the pickle overnight to see what, if any, difference the extra time would make. Not much that I can tell - the first 1/2 hour or so was plenty to remove the hardened flux, and a wire brushing in running water rinsed away the remaining dirt. Almost all the silver soldering I've done up to this point has been on copper, bronze, and brass, which clean up in the pickle solution remarkably well. I guess the steel just doesn't, or at least needs a stronger solution to do any more. However, since these parts will be painted, they are plenty clean for that, so I am moving on. I did sand off the heads of the temporary screws on the belt sander.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/oy9cwdhc7/IMG_8811.jpg)
Next step was to mill the sides of the bearing blocks at the end square to the plates - they had moved just a bit from vertical during the soldering - given there was only one screw holding them in the lower corner I am not surprised. So, a couple light passes with the side of the mill and they are straight again.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dn6p80ah3/IMG_8812.jpg)
Then drilled/tapped the holes for the other two bearing block's hold down studs.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6y05rzp53/IMG_8815.jpg)
Here is one of them with some hex bolts to show where the studs will be. The two moveable bearings (one for the front sprocket, one for the center axle) have slots that go over the studs, and tensioning bolts that go forward to the frame.
Next steps on the frames: make the circular chain guides for the lower corners, and drill for the bushings in the rear bearing blocks...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 03, 2016, 11:28:57 PM
FYI to anyone in the northeast US - I just saw that the Maine Forestand Logging Museum has posted some dates for 2017 that they will be running the Lombard:
May 20 - Spring Run
July 29 - Heavy Metal Day, where they will be running both the steam and apparently a gas powered hauler, as well as other engines coming in for the event.
I am planning on being there for both, great chance to see it run and get detail photos and measurements for the model. With a little luck the model should be running for the July event - be great to get some pics of the model with its big brother!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on December 03, 2016, 10:11:20 PM
Chris, I see you and the gnomes have continued to be quite busy. The soldering looks great. Keep on keeping on :)

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 04, 2016, 03:36:21 AM
Got a bit more done tonight - measured for the spacer blocks that hold the track frames parallel with each other, sits between them under the central axle. I don't know what the real block looks like, or if the frames were cast in one piece (though I doubt that) or had one or more block in between. I hope to find out in the spring if I guessed right when I go up to Maine. Either way, it needs something there, so I decided on a 1-1/2" long by 5/16" square block, bolted in from either side. Here it is with the blocks made and being used as spacers while drilling the track frames:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/70k1etssn/IMG_8817.jpg)
And a couple of shots of everything bolted together with some loctite for good measure:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/pheg5n8qv/IMG_8818.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/kws9qpp1j/IMG_8819.jpg)
The bolt heads are just out of the way of the roller chain, but I am planning to mill them thinner anyway and angle the heads so the chains won't have a tendancy to catch on them.
And here is a picture of the sprockets sitting about where they will when the bearings are made:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/nciniajt3/IMG_8820.jpg)

Next time I will get started on boring the holes in the end bearing blocks for the rear axle bearings.

It was brought up by AOG in an earlier post about leaving one of the cotter pins out so I can wrap the tracks in place and pin them then. I wasn't sure, thought I might be able to slip the track over with the bearing in a bit, but that turned out to be incorrect, there is not enough space to slack off the sprockets that much, so I will pull one pin when it comes time to assemble things. Not a big deal, the pins are just bent up out of wire. Everyone keep those comments coming - they have been very helpful so far!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 04, 2016, 06:25:48 PM
Got to work on drilling the rear axle bearing holes in the track frames today. First needed to make up a batch of 2-56 nuts for the bearing blocks out of some 1/8" stainless hex stock (off the shelf nuts wont fit the narrow space, let alone look correct). Drilled hole on the lathe, and used the parting tool to shape and part off each nut.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/pvd0wzz7r/IMG_8821.jpg)
Here are the bearing blocks bolted up:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/74fp0ku13/IMG_8822.jpg)
and being drilled for the bearings. Some bits of offcuts were used to give a solid purchase in the mill vise.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mefk7rpjb/IMG_8823.jpg)
Here is a shot showing how it will all come together - the wood block under the track frame raises it up to about where it will be when the roller chains are made and installed. As you can see, the axle is a loose fit in the block since I have not made the bronze bearing yet, and also still need to make the bearing block for the front axle, which will also allow tensioning out the track.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/40513sd8n/IMG_8827.jpg)
One thing I did learn doing this test fit - it IS possible to install the track without removing a pin! It will require removing the nuts on the front bearing block to allow the front sprocket to raise up, but there is plenty of room to do that and slip the front sprocket into place, which will make trial fits much simpler later on. Also, I think I am going to take a trick from someone elses book (Chuck maybe? KVOM? Dont remember where I read it), and for the rear bearing block I will use some socket head screws with the outside of the head reshaped to a hex. Getting  a nut driver or small open end wrench into the tiny space at the rear block is very difficult, and very hard to get the bolt tightened down, so I will use the hex wrench with the socket head screws in the inside pair of holes. Normally I would use hex head bolts everywhere, but in that place next to the sprocket, under the track, and with the bolt heads almost touching, it just is not practical. The outer ones will have normal hex heads, as long as I install them before the inside pair on each block.

Anyway, this is a major milestone, bringing the track frames into place. Next up I will turn the bearings, and get started on the bearing blocks for the front axles, and the round chain guides for the lower corners of the track frames.

First though, tonight is one of our RC submarine runs at the local Y pool, so time to get that gear together...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: bruedney on December 04, 2016, 07:08:11 PM
Impressive Chris

 :ThumbsUp:

Bruce
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 04, 2016, 08:27:35 PM
Impressive Chris

 :ThumbsUp:

Bruce
Thanks Bruce!
Almost to the point where I can drive the tracks around...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 04, 2016, 08:34:46 PM
The rear axle bearings started out by drilling and turning down some bronze rod...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4e6d3dxc7/IMG_8828.jpg)
and shortening the outside end of the rear sprocket axles to match (had left them long till I knew how wide the bearings would turn out). They are thinner than I would normally do on bearings, but on the real thing the exposed portion is also very thin.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rgww2jytj/IMG_8829.jpg)
Here is how they look just slid onto the axles
(https://s5.postimg.cc/f3k1vn953/IMG_8830.jpg)
I think that I am going to do the round chain guides at the lower corners of the track frames next, so that I can finish up all the drilling work on the frames, then move on to the moveable front bearing blocks.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 04, 2016, 10:37:24 PM
And one more set of parts for the day, the cylindrical guides that bolt to the lower corners of the track frame. The roller chain that supports the bottom of the track turns around this guide to go back around to the other end. They started as a bit of 1/2" steel bar, turned the profile into the side to leave a flange at the outer end, and drilled/bored the center, leaving a solid base with a hole in the center to bolt to the frame.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/u0siwnmdj/IMG_8831.jpg)
Here are the four parts ready to be notched to fit over the bottom plate on the track frame. The one on the far right is upside down, so you can see the solid base and bolt hole in it. I need to do some figuring to work out the notch in the side of the cylinder - will probably do something really technical like cutting out a paper pattern!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/e3tqzxtzb/IMG_8832.jpg)
To see where this is going, here is the picture of the real track frame again, showing the roller chain looped around the guides at the end, which are notched over the bottom plate.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/r9xk1c93b/Real_Track_Side_View.jpg)
There is also a short tangent flat plate to connect the cylinders to the middle beam, not sure how I will attach that, probably solder on a piece of sheet stock.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on December 05, 2016, 02:50:30 AM
More nice progress Chris and looking just like the real thing!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Captain Jerry on December 05, 2016, 03:09:23 AM
Quote
The bolt heads are just out of the way of the roller chain, but I am planning to mill them thinner anyway and angle the heads so the chains won't have a tendancy to catch on them.

If they can catch, they will catch.  Why don't you use counter sunk flat head screws and eliminate the possibility? They are completely hidden from view.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 05, 2016, 03:33:48 AM
Quote
The bolt heads are just out of the way of the roller chain, but I am planning to mill them thinner anyway and angle the heads so the chains won't have a tendancy to catch on them.

If they can catch, they will catch.  Why don't you use counter sunk flat head screws and eliminate the possibility? They are completely hidden from view.
Nice idea. Easy enough to run in a countersink. The slots could be filled with some jb weld to make them completely flush. Thanks!!
Not sure if I have some 4-40 cs screws, easy enough to mod some if not.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: fumopuc on December 05, 2016, 04:56:14 AM
Hi Chris, a very impressive project.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 05, 2016, 06:46:52 PM
More on the roller guides. I got the notches milled, so that they fit over the bottom guide plates. Since they go on either end, four had to be milled on one side,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/q67ywfdon/IMG_8834.jpg)
and the other four on the other
(https://s5.postimg.cc/am0l5w3k7/IMG_8837.jpg)
They were clamped in place on the plates, and the hole in the base used as a guide to start the drill for the bolt holes. Here are the parts all assembled:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/cf837ye4n/IMG_8838.jpg)
I also countersunk and ground off the center spacing plate bolts, sort of like Jerry suggested. I did not have any flathead screws in the right size, so I measured the heads of some caphead bolts, drilled a shallow recess that size, loctited in the bolts and milled off the heads, which will leave a clear path for the roller chains.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6fkc4atc7/IMG_8839.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/qo7pq0snb/IMG_8840.jpg)

I think at this point I am ready to start in on the forward bearing blocks...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on December 06, 2016, 12:51:21 AM
I am hearing engine chuffing and track clanking and rattling sounds in my mind as I view these pics. Since the driver was in the front and the engineer in the back, many feet away, there was like more than a few choice words loosed as well.

Excellent job so far Chris.

Tom
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 06, 2016, 12:58:56 AM
I am hearing engine chuffing and track clanking and rattling sounds in my mind as I view these pics. Since the driver was in the front and the engineer in the back, many feet away, there was like more than a few choice words loosed as well.

Excellent job so far Chris.

Tom
Thanks Tom!

A couple more days, and I can at least make the clanking sounds when rolling the tracks back and forth! Maybe run the Shay in the background for the engine noise....
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 06, 2016, 01:20:47 AM
Another shop session this afternoon (its cold/wet outside, great day to stay in), got started on the front sprocket bearing blocks. I started with a chunk of 303 steel big enough to get both the front bearing blocks and the central pivot blocks out of - worked out to less waste to split a wide bar in half than to trim away part of the next size down I had. The bar is thick enough to get both the main block and to turn out the boss around the axle.

Now, here is a prime example of how rolled bar has internal stresses that can come out when you cut it. In the next photo, I had cut the bar in half lengthwise, and laid out the two halves with the outer (formerly) straight edges next to each other:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9b20owmpz/IMG_8841.jpg)
As you can see, the bars have bowed a bit, leaving a gap of about a millimieter in the center. Also, after looking close and holding up a ruler along side them, it was apparent that one bowed more than the other, and more at one end than the other in the same piece. Always something to keep in mind. On these bars, not a problem since there was enough material left to mill both edges back straight again, plus the bars will be cut into short segments anyway.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5fymmc3k7/IMG_8843.jpg)
After sizing the bar, and figuring out the spacing of the slots for the mounting bolts (the bearing blocks can slide a bit to tension the track), I went down the line and spot drilled pairs of holes for each slot.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/b5ev6n9qf/IMG_8844.jpg)
and then came back with a 3/32 drill at each position. The final slots will be 1/8" wide, but the smaller drill allowed me to drill either end of each hole without the holes walking into each other.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ah60npb0n/IMG_8845.jpg)
And then came back with a 1/8" end mill, and did a plunge cut at either end of each slot, and again in the center, then cleaned up the remainder.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/h8wfqk007/IMG_8846.jpg)
The end mill was not long enough to reach all the way through the bar, so I flipped it lengthwise and did a pass from the opposite side to finish them up.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/esumcphxj/IMG_8847.jpg)
Then, before cutting the bar in half to do the shaping on the top/bottom surfaces, I sketched in the outlines of each one so I would not get things backwards later. Note that there are two left and two right side blocks.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/np5egn8jr/IMG_8848.jpg)
and then cut the bar in half so I can work on the rest. The bottoms get a notch to ride on the top rail of the track frame, and the after end gets a notch. Once those are done, I will take the blocks to the lathe to turn the outer faces down to form the boss around the axle.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/cqu4ygjyf/IMG_8850.jpg)
The sketched in lines are just there to help me orient them correctly, measurements will be used to do the actual cuts.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 06, 2016, 04:30:15 AM
A couple more pictures that I forgot to post earlier - I had blended the corners of the frames into the chain guides:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/vzvt27thj/IMG_8851.jpg)
on both sides
(https://s5.postimg.cc/411nbcruv/IMG_8852.jpg)
and took some family shots of the parts.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4rudh4u87/IMG_8853.jpg)
 I then put the track assemblies at the distance apart they will be in the final model, a little over 8", which looks huge:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bjksjzj7r/IMG_8854.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/bkuqdel1j/IMG_8855.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on December 06, 2016, 03:55:08 AM
Hi Chris,
 Well after 2 days of not getting my fix, :killcomputer: you have been a busy boy! The tracks are coming on nicely!
  Right off to the shop,  :popcorn: required! It's not growing fast enuff to keep up!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 06, 2016, 06:33:12 AM
Looking good Chris. I'm glad I printed out the pics you posted of the track mechanism and the drawing you made. Helps me to keep track of what is going on.  :)

I'm amazed at how much your material moved when you split it. I'd of believed it for wood (based on experience), but never thought about metal moving that much!

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 06, 2016, 06:36:47 AM
Hi Chris,
 Well after 2 days of not getting my fix, :killcomputer: you have been a busy boy! The tracks are coming on nicely!
  Right off to the shop,  :popcorn: required! It's not growing fast enuff to keep up!

Cheers Kerrin
Thanks! Things have been coming together nicely lately. I want to get the bearings on for the sprockets and the center pivot axle to tie it all together before starting on the roller chains. The chains will take a while, given the number of parts, but I have some ideas on a way to production line tjem with some more jigs and fixtures. Hope they work out.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 06, 2016, 06:43:30 AM
Looking good Chris. I'm glad I printed out the pics you posted of the track mechanism and the drawing you made. Helps me to keep track of what is going on.  :)

I'm amazed at how much your material moved when you split it. I'd of believed it for wood (based on experience), but never thought about metal moving that much!

Jim
Yeah, while cutting down the middle I could see the kerf opening up. I have seen it on brass bar lots of times, which is why I now always do a stress relief pass in the oven on brass bar that I will be cutting down the middle, or even just milling off on one side. For brass its easy, 500f for an hour in the oven (degreased first!) Does the job. For the 303 though, I have read that the temperature required is much higher than a household oven can do. Fortunately in this case there was enough material to mill it straight again. For turning on the lathe its no issue since you are taking evenly from all sides.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on December 06, 2016, 06:03:05 PM
Bud you just keep chewing up the metal and making art with it. Your are sure on a roll Dog and still with you...... :praise2:

Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 06, 2016, 06:33:56 PM
Bud you just keep chewing up the metal and making art with it. Your are sure on a roll Dog and still with you...... :praise2:

Don
Nice having you along for the ride!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on December 06, 2016, 07:54:19 PM
I'm riding with Don,  I'm drinking and he's driving  :lolb: :lolb:. Man, that is looking great.  I just now tried to count the individual track segments;  as the guy at the drive thru Chinese restaurant says everytime I order beef chow mein: "Lotta cabbage" , lotta pieces  :cheers:. I know you want to paint it and having it looking "as delivered" new,  but,  I bet Jerry and I would like to see you just rub a little red clay on what you have  :facepalm: :shrug: :stir:.

Cletus

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 06, 2016, 11:50:58 PM
I'm riding with Don,  I'm drinking and he's driving  :lolb: :lolb:. Man, that is looking great.  I just now tried to count the individual track segments;  as the guy at the drive thru Chinese restaurant says everytime I order beef chow mein: "Lotta cabbage" , lotta pieces  :cheers:. I know you want to paint it and having it looking "as delivered" new,  but,  I bet Jerry and I would like to see you just rub a little red clay on what you have  :facepalm: :shrug: :stir:.

Cletus

Hope its a better ride than the old joke:  "I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather, rather than screaming in terror like the passengers in his car!"

To save the counting, 30 track plates per side, 30 pins, 60 washers, 30 cotters, per side. LOTSA parts!

The frames will be painted, tracks not, it will pick up natural patina outside running plus the wet steam oil dripping around...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Captain Jerry on December 06, 2016, 11:52:53 PM
I don't mind a little paint, but we only had one color in our shops and that was yella. I know Chris isn't going that way so maybe you're right. A little red dog packed in the rollers would look about right.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 07, 2016, 04:45:55 AM
I don't mind a little paint, but we only had one color in our shops and that was yella. I know Chris isn't going that way so maybe you're right. A little red dog packed in the rollers would look about right.
Yella? I'd do more than yell at anyone who got that near this model!! Ick!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 07, 2016, 03:22:33 PM
Catching up on work from yesterday...

Started out with the bearing blocks by milling the slot in the bases to fit over the top rail in the track frames
(https://s5.postimg.cc/e1abwh79j/IMG_8856.jpg)
and cutting the notch in the end
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4i0n30jrb/IMG_8857.jpg)
At this point I cut the individual blocks apart from the longer bar
(https://s5.postimg.cc/zdhtu5r7r/IMG_8859.jpg)
and drilled/tapped the holes in the end for the tension adjusting bolt
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ie8vewg07/IMG_8860.jpg)
and then set up in the lathe in the 4 jaw to drill the hole for the axle bushing. The holes were set to line up with the height of the rear axle bushing that is already in the track frame. A spacer was put behind the part to get clearance from the jaws for the facing operation in a couple steps.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3wbo6wop3/IMG_8861.jpg)
The starter hole was then bored out to the size of the bushing
(https://s5.postimg.cc/u4rutef47/IMG_8862.jpg)
and the face turned in to form the boss on the outside.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8jms5sidj/IMG_8863.jpg)
Here are the bearing blocks set in place on the track frame, ready to make the bushings.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ovwtviwp3/IMG_8867.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 07, 2016, 05:44:05 PM
This morning I got the bearing block bearings turned out of bronze rod and loctited into place
(https://s5.postimg.cc/uld2fu2vb/IMG_8869.jpg)
and then the block ends rounded off on the belt sander, few seconds on each corner with the occasional dip in water to cool them and all set.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/oygpid0cn/IMG_8872.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/x58p9xqfb/IMG_8873.jpg)
Also got a start on making the mounting studs to hold the blocks onto the frames.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/zb304ftvr/IMG_8875.jpg)
Here is the first one test fitted, when the studs are done I will make up a set of proper size nuts, these commercial ones are out of scale.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qu3htip6v/IMG_8876.jpg)
So, a bit more to do on these parts, then I can start on the bearing blocks for the center axle, which is simaler.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on December 07, 2016, 07:47:02 PM
I'll bet Mr. Lombard would have loved to have you as an employee! Talk about output! And you have been know to work for cookies as well :lolb:

Tom
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 07, 2016, 09:39:33 PM
I'll bet Mr. Lombard would have loved to have you as an employee! Talk about output! And you have been know to work for cookies as well :lolb:

Tom

I will also work for peanuts!!

Popcorn....

Beer...

Batter dipped Haddock...

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 07, 2016, 09:47:21 PM
And I got the rest of the front bearing studs made this afternoon, and during test fitting realized that I have to recorrect my correction of a statement that was in reply to what AOG said...
It is NOT possible to slip the track and sprockets into place without removing a cotter pin and a pivot pin from the track. I thought there was, but once the full length bearing hold down studs were in place, it took up that extra room, and it wont quite go in anymore. It is much easier to pull a pin and replace it than to remove/replace the studs each time. Oh well! 
 :zap:
Still, not a big deal. I think I am close to ready to install the tracks that last time - got to make up a batch of 4-40 nuts for the tops of the bearing blocks, and throw a coat of paint (yes, and mud and grime and smooshed rabbits) at the track frames. The roller chains can slip in with the tracks un-tensioned, as can the center axle pivots.

Not tonight though, have to take a run up to the range and pick up my new compound bow (Merry Christmas to me....)   :whoohoo:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on December 07, 2016, 10:36:24 PM
No No, there would have been no smooshed rabbits,  the crew would have taken them out with a spotlight and a .22 single shot  and had 'em fer supper. I bet Jim will tell you some of the best "feast " he's ever had was on some right of way or job site.  Them boys know how to eat.

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 08, 2016, 07:37:26 PM
Got a start making a batch of 4-40 nuts for the bearing block mounting studs
(https://s5.postimg.cc/a41avo5jb/IMG_8879.jpg)
You can see in this shot the difference from hardware store version (center) to the more scale ones on the outsides:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ebw34f6yv/IMG_8878.jpg)
and then got a couple coats of paint (duplicolor universal flat black spray) on the frames and sprockets. I've used this stuff on my submarines, holds up pretty well, dries quick for recoating. Gets a little trickier to get a good light angle for the photos though.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4twc4dlaf/IMG_8880.jpg)
I am going to let it set up before assembling the tracks onto the frames.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/lvp66h05j/IMG_8884.jpg)
and with the sprockets set in place above the bearing blocks:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fja0wmx3b/IMG_8885.jpg)
While that is drying, I will get a start on the studs for the center axle and then on the center bearing blocks.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on December 09, 2016, 12:39:42 AM
Hi Chris,
 That's looking soooo COOL, the nut size makes a real difference!
As a thought for your rollers, have you looked to see if you can can drive chain, the rollers are hardened as are the pins? A friend of my some years ago had the need for some hardened short tube or roller, can't remember which...... :old:,  duplex or triplex may give you the size required. Just grind one end off the pins & Bob's your auntie !

Oh on the rabbit front, you might have to gear her up a notch or two!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 09, 2016, 12:46:31 AM
Hi Chris,
 That's looking soooo COOL, the nut size makes a real difference!
As a thought for your rollers, have you looked to see if you can can drive chain, the rollers are hardened as are the pins? A friend of my some years ago had the need for some hardened short tube or roller, can't remember which...... :old: ,  duplex or triplex may give you the size required. Just grind one end off the pins & Bob's your auntie !

Oh on the rabbit front, you might have to gear her up a notch or two!

Cheers Kerrin

I've looked at the drive chains available out there now, the diameters/widths dont quite match up to what I need, so will go the make-em route.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 09, 2016, 12:53:12 AM
Here are a couple of pictures of the tracks assembled onto the frames and bearings:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9l0t053if/IMG_8889.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/9l0t053if/IMG_8889.jpg)

They roll fairly well, even without the roller chains at the bottom, which will help smooth out the motion (I hope).

I know that there are those out there (you know who you are) who wont believe they move without a video, so here it is!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTNOCn3DwQs
 :cheers:
Now on to making the center axle bearing and the axle itself - will be a few days, we have several events the next few days, including a train show at the local college.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on December 09, 2016, 02:09:46 AM
Hi Chris,
 That makes all the right noises!

On the chain front, sorry didn't make it clear, was just suggesting the brought chain as a source of supply of the rollers & potentially the pins. Remove them from the brought stuff & make up your own side links. But I guess you still end up in the same boat(err in your case submarine) that the rollers have to be the right size!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on December 09, 2016, 02:33:25 AM
Damn Chris that is awesome Dog. Some nice work...... :praise2:

Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: RJH on December 09, 2016, 02:33:46 AM
It looks great!  But you may have a problem with the roller chain guide, it looks to be to long in the front.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 09, 2016, 02:39:32 AM
It looks great!  But you may have a problem with the roller chain guide, it looks to be to long in the front.
Its in the right spot,  the track is sitting up high since the chain is not there. The rollers are only about 3/16, and you are seeing the overhang from the guide, so the track will be about 1/8" lower. When holding it up it all lines up right. And yes, made me look!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 09, 2016, 02:42:38 AM
Hi Chris,
 That makes all the right noises!

On the chain front, sorry didn't make it clear, was just suggesting the brought chain as a source of supply of the rollers & potentially the pins. Remove them from the brought stuff & make up your own side links. But I guess you still end up in the same boat(err in your case submarine) that the rollers have to be the right size!

Cheers Kerrin
No sweat. And I am not sure if disassembling a riveted chain would be easier than making one from scratch! Besides, this way I can say I made it all. Except for the parts I didn't, like pressure gauge, safety valve, fuel tank...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on December 09, 2016, 03:08:08 AM
It all looks amazing Chris. I haven't looked in a day or two and you are making some fast progress!!  Well done!!


Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 09, 2016, 03:59:39 AM
It all looks amazing Chris. I haven't looked in a day or two and you are making some fast progress!!  Well done!!


Bill
Thank you Bill! Its a big relief that it all moves smoothly after all that work.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on December 09, 2016, 07:39:42 AM
Wow, Chris, that's just pretty cool!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: kvom on December 09, 2016, 02:08:28 PM
Working well.  Your hand makes the scale evident.   :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: vcutajar on December 09, 2016, 03:32:16 PM
 :praise2: :praise2: :praise2: :praise2:

Vince
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Roger B on December 09, 2016, 09:43:55 PM
Magnificent  :praise2:  :praise2: It's hard to keep up with your builds  ::)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 09, 2016, 11:00:44 PM
Thanks all!

Having a great time with this build. Can't wait to see it with the real one in the spring.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 10, 2016, 04:51:46 AM
Looking great Chris!  Looks fresh out of the factory. Love the video.

Performs good for only having 1 HP as in "one hand-power" for an engine!
 
Jim







Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 10, 2016, 11:46:53 PM
Guys - after getting back from the train show, been looking through the photos of the Lombard up in Maine again, and finally found a couple of pictures that show the track frames from the top, in the center where the axle will be. There IS a slab of metal between the two track frames, holding them apart leaving a gap at the ends for the sprockets. I can't tell how far down they go, or how they are attached, but it is a seperate piece (can see the edges of the track frames above the spacer). It could have been welded together, or held with bolts that are behind something else.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/nuneex0xz/Axle-1.jpg)
I have been looking in that area to get enough details to model up how the center axle itself and the parts that hold it to the main frame are shaped. There is a spring box there, with angled webs going up to the frame fore and aft. Looks to be some coil springs to give it a little bit of suspension travel, maybe 3 inches worth. The main axle is just a plain rod, goes through the spring boxes and the pivot on the track frames, and is clamped inside and out of all that with a square split plate. Still getting my head around the spring arrangement...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/sukumv6kn/Axle-2.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fextxey2v/Axle-3.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/f9p2kpolj/Axle-4.jpg)
It looks like the springs are connected to a sleeve around the axle by posts that go through slots next to the coil springs, but I have not worked out what moves which the frame and what moves with the axle...

EDIT: Possible bit of luck, I went back and looked at Lombards' original patent filings, and it looks like he drew the same suspension setup in his description. I am going to dig through the patent and see if I can figure out which parts are bolted to which. And I thought I was able to stop reading patents when I retired!! Sigh...

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on December 11, 2016, 12:38:44 AM
Chris looking close at your photo it looks like a spring within a spring and wound opposite.


Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 10, 2016, 11:08:27 PM
Chris looking close at your photo it looks like a spring within a spring and wound opposite.


Don

I've been going through the patent and the patent drawings, which detail out each part and what each is connected to, though in the usual terse legalese run-on sentances. I believe I have it figured out, and have made some sketches to keep it straight. I think the rust and shadows of the opposite side of the spring make it look like another spring inside but its not. There is a nub at the bottom to hold the spring in place.

What he did was actually pretty simple and elegant. The stirrups with the springs are held with a crossbar on either side, over the square block that the axle slips through. The bottom of the spring rests on the inside of the stirrup, and the top of the spring presses against the main frame.

The crossbars between the stirrups just rest on the axle block. The axle block rides in a slot in the big bracket that is bolted to the main frame. That bracket comes down the inside of the frame, and forms a box beam that extends under the frame - that is the slotted part next to the stirrups that I thought a bar went through, it is actually just a box beam casting. The axle block can run up and down in the big slot in that bracket, compressing the springs as it does so. That bracket has the angled bar running back up to the frame to help stabilize it.

I will model it up in 3D and post some diagrams of it in the next day or so - pretty slick setup.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 10, 2016, 11:34:40 PM
Don, turns out you were 100% corect, found in the Lombard parts list that there WAS a second spring inside the larger one, plus a short cone guide at the ends.
Cool design, I better model this all in 3d soon or I'll have to start over again...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 11, 2016, 05:04:50 AM
Took me a bit to finally get it through my head that these last pictures were taken of the tracks from the inside.  :Doh: Now I can see how that part of the system works.

My hats off to you for being able to look at all your resources and figure this stuff out.  :atcomputer:  The machining might be the easy part of this project!  :shrug:

Jim

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 11, 2016, 03:17:10 AM
I was thrown by the shapes of the brackets on the inside of the frames, finally figured out that half of them wrre the boiler firebox attachment brackets. An invaluable resource has been the parts catalog from the manufacturer that the museum posted. No dimensions, just side views, but names of everything and great clues to how it all worked. The original patent documents give great descriptions too, they have to specify how the mechanism works in great detail to support the claims of the patent. The final product varied some, but this part of the suspension is identical. A really fun puzzle!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 11, 2016, 10:29:10 PM
All right, got it modelled up in 3D, here is how it all works!

Here are the suspension components as seen from the outside of the frame. The rail at the top is the main frame rail of the hauler, and the axle that comes out to the center of the track is the round bar across the middle:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ak9nfmn0n/Track_Suspension_2.jpg)
The fitting at the right end of the axle is a retainer clamp that goes on the outside of the center track bearing block. The gap between that and the round spacer is where the center frame of the track goes. The red parts all move up and down with the track, the gray parts are fixed to the frame.
Here is another view, from the inside of the frame looking out:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ak9nfmn0n/Track_Suspension_2.jpg)
This is a simaler view to the photos I posted the other day of the real hauler.
And here is a view with the top inside red crossbar removed so you can see the inner parts:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ak9nfmn0n/Track_Suspension_2.jpg)
In that view you can see that the square block around the axle has a groove in each side that rides up and down in the bracket coming off the frame. The crossbar rests on top of that block, and connects to the u shaped stirrups at either end that contain the springs. The top of the springs rest against the bottom of the main frame rails. As the axle moves up, it pushes the crossbar and stirrups, compressing the springs. Very slick and simple setup, once you can see all the parts. It took a bunch of digging through the photos and the patent documents to figure it out, but its all sussed out now, so I can make the 2D drawing views and start making parts.

Hmmm.... looking at the first picture, it looks like I made the stirrups a little too narrow, and the outside edge is still just under the frame rail - have to go back and check that, may need to widen it a bit - the stirrup opening should be as wide as the frame rail and the bracket behind it.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 11, 2016, 10:44:43 PM
Yup - stirrup was too narrow, here is the corrected first drawing:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ak9nfmn0n/Track_Suspension_2.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Captain Jerry on December 12, 2016, 02:53:56 AM
Chris - That is great detective work.  Your drawing and description makes the mechanism clear and easy to follow.  Is there something that keeps the springs in position such as a rod through the center.  Is there some kind of seat on the frame where it contacts the spring? I don't see anything in the parts list that would serve the purpose.







Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 12, 2016, 01:02:00 AM
Chris - That is great detective work.  Your drawing and description makes the mechanism clear and easy to follow.  Is there something that keeps the springs in position such as a rod through the center.  Is there some kind of seat on the frame where it contacts the spring? I don't see anything in the parts list that would serve the purpose.
Yes, there is a small cone guide at the ends of the springs to keep them centered. In the parts list it is item 140 on cut nbr 6, where it also shows the nested springs.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Captain Jerry on December 12, 2016, 03:21:43 AM
Got it.  It just doesn't look like a cone on the parts list.  So how does it work, one at the top bolted to the frame and one at the bottom bolted to the spring box?
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 12, 2016, 01:37:18 AM
Got it.  It just doesn't look like a cone on the parts list.  So how does it work, one at the top bolted to the frame and one at the bottom bolted to the spring box?
Exactly. Wide end bolted to the plate, small end into the end coil of the spring. Keeps the spring from sliding out of position. The brace across the bottom of the bracket that angles up to the main frame does two things, keeps the axle block from being able to drop out of the bracket, and keeps the bracket from twisting.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 12, 2016, 05:15:12 AM
Good detective work there "Inspector Crueby"!  :ThumbsUp: You must have watched a lot of episodes of "Columbo".

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 12, 2016, 01:52:22 PM
Good detective work there "Inspector Crueby"!  :ThumbsUp: You must have watched a lot of episodes of "Columbo".

Jim
Yup! And there's always "one more thing!"  But no cigars.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 12, 2016, 06:24:44 PM
A bit more copying/pasting around in the 3D world, and here is what the track and suspension system is going to look like. For now the main frame rails are just stubs till the rest gets modelled up, but it gives you a good idea of how it will all come together.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/lhbhbb37r/Track_and_Suspension.jpg)


Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 13, 2016, 12:03:22 AM
Chris---you have the most exciting build going on the whole internet right now.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 12, 2016, 10:13:29 PM
Chris---you have the most exciting build going on the whole internet right now.---Brian

Wow - thanks Brian! 

Though I doubt I can compete with the latest cute dancing kitten video, or whatever is popular these days among the non-machinist crowd... Not a bad thing, just sayin', as Cletus would say!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 12, 2016, 10:19:51 PM
Now that the suspension is mapped out, time to get back to making swarf. I took the other half of the bar I had cut down for the sprocket bearing blocks, milled it up flat and square the same way as the other one, and then drilled/milled the adjustment slots and bottom groove just like the sprocket blocks. The dimensions of these blocks are a little different, but the method was the same to get to this point:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/56ycbp9mv/IMG_8894.jpg)
And then sketched on the holes/bosses, and milled the steps in the tops.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/toqfzlc7b/IMG_8896.jpg)
After turning in the bosses and drilling the bearing holes, the steps will be rounded off on the belt sander. Next step is to saw the individual blocks apart, and get them ready for the lathe...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on December 13, 2016, 12:53:52 AM
Look at that ... I go away for a couple of days to work on my tug boat and when I get back I don't recognize the place! I have to agree with Mr Rupnow ... This is the most refreshing build I have seen in a long time. Some of the v12's and v8's are pretty special, but this is going to be just plan fantastic :cheers: Not only the building of it, but every step is detailed and every question answered ... and recipes are included :cartwheel:.

My hat is off to you.

Tom
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 12, 2016, 11:14:27 PM
Look at that ... I go away for a couple of days to work on my tug boat and when I get back I don't recognize the place! I have to agree with Mr Rupnow ... This is the most refreshing build I have seen in a long time. Some of the v12's and v8's are pretty special, but this is going to be just plan fantastic :cheers: Not only the building of it, but every step is detailed and every question answered ... and recipes are included :cartwheel: .

My hat is off to you.

Tom

Thanks Tom!

and .... tug boat? tug boat?
An RC model or a real one?  Whatcha got?! (can you tell, I like tug boats?)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on December 13, 2016, 01:07:05 PM
It is a freelance r/c tug. Some of the features of my favorite tugs, built into a Dumas, Mr Darby hull that I was given. It will weigh around 65lbs when in the water and have a pull of between 15 and 20lbs.

I have fabricated and installed a stern roller so far, and got some of the drive system in.

Your hauler would look great on an 8 or 10 foot long barge, behind the tug, and then drive the hauler off onto a beach. Great fun for "older" kids :cheers:

Tom
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 13, 2016, 03:02:47 PM
That's going to be a great looking tug!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on December 13, 2016, 08:24:14 PM
After failing to find Mint Essence anywhere locally, we had to order it from the maker back east...

Baked the cookies yesterday and they are just wonderful!! We've never used that essence, rather than extract, before and it makes all the difference in the world.

This elf has a new favorite chocolate chip cookie!! :whoohoo: :cartwheel:

Thanks Chris!

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 13, 2016, 09:27:09 PM
After failing to find Mint Essence anywhere locally, we had to order it from the maker back east...

Baked the cookies yesterday and they are just wonderful!! We've never used that essence, rather than extract, before and it makes all the difference in the world.

This elf has a new favorite chocolate chip cookie!! :whoohoo: :cartwheel:

Thanks Chris!

Pete

Excellent!!
I found the baking emulsion works so much better too. The regular extract is fine for frosting and such, but it bakes out. Be interesting to see how many fewer shiny things the gnomes steal after a few cookies...!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on December 14, 2016, 01:14:30 AM
I had a good friend of mine in Colorado send me some of those essence emulsions last week. I have had a strong desire for some chocolate chip mint cookies ever since and the shop time just crawls by,  but,  the sunsets sure are pretty,  just saying  :lolb: :mischief: :naughty: :lolb:

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 14, 2016, 12:12:12 AM
I had a good friend of mine in Colorado send me some of those essence emulsions last week. I have had a strong desire for some chocolate chip mint cookies ever since and the shop time just crawls by,  but,  the sunsets sure are pretty,  just saying  :lolb: :mischief: :naughty: :lolb:

Cletus
Sounds more like he sent you a bottle of mint julep!   :DrinkPint:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 14, 2016, 08:13:11 PM
Next steps on the bearing blocks were to cut them off the longer bar, square up the ends, and bore for the bearing and turn in the boss - done very simaler to the sprocket bearing blocks, except these dont have the step in one end:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/njcf8xi4n/IMG_8898.jpg)
Then it was on the the bearings, chucked up some bronze bar and drilled/bored the axle hole to size
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bvidedszr/IMG_8899.jpg)
and turned the outside down to fit the blocks
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xvypv0bnr/IMG_8900.jpg)
The bearings were parted off, and put into the blocks (which have had the ends sanded round on the belt sander) and test fit on the axle:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kt33bqlfr/IMG_8901.jpg)
Now I need to make up some more mounting studs for the top center of the track frames, then I will start on the rest of the suspension parts....
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Roger B on December 14, 2016, 10:41:43 PM
Still following along :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp: (but sometimes struggling to keep up  ::) )
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on December 14, 2016, 10:51:28 PM
Dog that is turning into some bad ass work. I am awed at your progress....... :praise2:

Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 15, 2016, 01:26:46 AM
Well, didn't feel like working on the mounting studs, so I got a little done on the other parts - made up the spacer piece that fits between the pair of bearing blocks on either side, and did a test fit:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xgs1fqf47/IMG_8902.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/q22pnct8n/IMG_8903.jpg)
and then started prepping the stock for the inner axle blocks, that will ride up and down in the slot in the brackets that hold the axle to the frame. I thought I had some 1/2" square steel bar, but I guess not, have plenty of 3/8" square bar but no 1/2". So, took a slice off a larger block of 1/2" thick bar, and squared it up on the mill:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/jcw67c7wn/IMG_8906.jpg)
and cut off some shorter lengths for the axle blocks. Here they have the slots sketched in, and the ends marked where they will be turned round (the area with the slots stays square). I like to sketch in this stuff, helps prevent brain farts later on when setting up in the machine...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/u0zx66hvr/IMG_8908.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: yogi on December 15, 2016, 04:08:05 AM
Great Project Chris! It's a real joy to follow along.  :popcorn:
Thanks for sharing.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 15, 2016, 02:40:24 AM
Great Project Chris! It's a real joy to follow along.  :popcorn:
Thanks for sharing.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Thanks! Having a lot of fun building it, at least till I get to the drive and roller chains!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 16, 2016, 01:40:13 AM
Continuing on with the axle parts - milled the side slots in the square axle blocks first. These will slip into the bracket coming down from the frame, allowing the axle to slide up and down. The slots are a little wider than the brackets are thick, to allow one side to move independantly of the other and tilting the axle.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/x2r5zibyf/IMG_8909.jpg)
then chucked the blocks up in the 4-jaw (you can see one of the side slots under the top jaw) to drill
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xtjw5aebr/IMG_8911.jpg)
and bore out the 3/8" hole for the axle
(https://s5.postimg.cc/91k9y1x53/IMG_8912.jpg)
and then turned the outer end round. This keeps the end from catching on the track as the track pivots forward and back over any bumps.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/aun6mdibr/IMG_8913.jpg)
Here are the axle parts so far slipped onto the axle.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/scg3q8pfr/IMG_8916.jpg)
And a closer look at one end of the axle. In this shot you can see the square axle blocks on the inside, with the round portion acting as a spacer so the tracks clear the frame, then the pairs of bearing blocks with another spacer between them. That last spacer is important so that any side load on the tracks does not tip one of the bearing blocks. All of these parts so far are just a slip fit onto the axle, there will be clamp blocks at either end of each group to hold everything in position.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4jhz5yh3b/IMG_8915.jpg)
Here is how it looks in place on the track:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/z27rqx69z/IMG_8917.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/n1qx3xo93/IMG_8918.jpg)
And now on to the clamp blocks I mentioned - started out with some flat bar stock cut to length, then held in the 4-jaw to bore (yet another) hole for the axle.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/99ci8axhj/IMG_8920.jpg)
This hole can be a slip fit at this point, since the block will be cut in two and will clamp back onto the axle with a bolt at either side. Here I am milling out the steps at the corners for the bolts to sit against. The step at the top will be rounded off later.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4byxn6vif/IMG_8921.jpg)
Once I get the rest of the steps milled in, I will drill for the clamping bolts, round the center steps, cut the two halves apart, and round the ends. Enough for one day, time to go watch some TV and eat Christmas cookies with the shop elves!


Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on December 16, 2016, 12:03:54 AM
You're really  moving along here... but the ride is very smooth!   Nice!

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 16, 2016, 04:54:32 PM
You're really  moving along here... but the ride is very smooth!   Nice!

Pete
I bet the ride on the hauler gets a bit bumpier!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 16, 2016, 05:03:58 PM
This morning I got he bolt holes in the axle clamps drilled
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bpnidmubr/IMG_8922.jpg)
then rounded off the steps and the ends on the sander, and marked them with number stamps before cutting them apart.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/diqf1yfif/IMG_8923.jpg)
Here are some pictures of how the clamps fit on the ends of the axles, holding the suspension parts from sliding back and forth.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/g1c42n18n/IMG_8924.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rrq1k0u13/IMG_8925.jpg)
I need to mix up a fresh batch of 2-56 and 4-40 nuts, give these parts a quick coat of paint, and they can be assembled onto the tracks! Next parts up will be the brackets and spring assemblies that connect the axle to the main frame...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 16, 2016, 07:49:12 PM
While looking at the parts after making up a batch of 4-40 nuts for the bearing blocks, I realized that things were not lining up properly. I went back to the photos of the real hauler, and realized that I had not left room for the drive chain from the differential back to the rear sprocket axle. There needed to be more room between the track and the main frame for the drive chain and sprockets.

So, quick tweak to the 3D model
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ak9nfmn0n/Track_Suspension_2.jpg)
to lengthen the spacer bushing between the square axle block and the track frame, which gives this gap between the main frame and the track:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/limsxebif/Complete_Hauler_v54.jpg)
Rather than completely remake the original block, I drilled a length of 1/2" bar and made an extra spacer:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/n78gitzpj/IMG_8926.jpg)
That will give the room needed for the drive chain, and narrows up the span of the main frame (which is how I noticed the error, the frame was looking too wide compared to the original).
Fortunately, a simple fix!

Back to making up a batch of 2-56 nuts for the axle clamps...

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on December 16, 2016, 07:51:35 PM
Yeah,  I saw the weather in Rochester Mr. Benny  :lolb:. Ain't much else to do but eat cookies and make parts  :cheers:

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 16, 2016, 07:56:22 PM
Yeah,  I saw the weather in Rochester Mr. Benny  :lolb: . Ain't much else to do but eat cookies and make parts  :cheers:

Cletus

Wow, showing your age on that one!

Wait, I got it too... Dang!  Um, saw it on the history channel, yeah, thats it!   :old:

Today is actually not too bad, we got another 6 inches of snow last night, fortunately the fluffy stuff so easy to move, but the driving yesterday was awful with wind causing whiteouts. Nice thing about retirement, when the weather gets nasty, I head for the shop rather than the car! Tomorrow is going to warm up, and we may get half an inch of rain before the next snowstorm. Gotta love living near the big lakes!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 16, 2016, 11:49:40 PM
Got some more 2-56 nuts made up, and the axle clamps in place:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fc2ihrfgn/IMG_8927.jpg)
and so it was time to do a test fit of the axle assembly with the tracks - just a couple of the nuts holding the bearing blocks for now, since they need to come off for painting again.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/afyvq2fbb/IMG_8935.jpg)
and a shot of everything together:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/x3e4w7uvb/IMG_8931.jpg)
While they were together, I could not resist a quick video of them rolling on the table, along with testing the pivotting action of the axle bearings, like they would going over bumpy ground
[youtube1]https://youtu.be/ueYZNsYWYl0[/youtube1]
Very happy with that progress, time to go put on a movie and eat some Christmas cookies with the shop elves (they like action movies, like The Terminelver, Marvel's Elves of Shield, that sort of thing)...  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Captain Jerry on December 17, 2016, 01:08:25 AM
Beautiful show.  Looks good, works good.  I can hardy believe how easy it must have been. :NotWorthy:

Enjoy your cookies, I'm having pie.  It is easier to stop with one piece of pie than it is with one cookie.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on December 17, 2016, 01:15:03 AM
Yup ... I can just hear all of the appropriate noises now ... even over the crunching of the popcorn :popcorn:

Tom
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 17, 2016, 03:23:04 AM
Looks and works great Chris! Although with the snow you have back there and that being a snow vehicle and all, I would of thought you'd of done the test out in the snow!  :lolb:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 17, 2016, 02:12:19 AM
Thanks guys!

It will be interesting to see how much smoother it gets once the roller chain is made. That will be started after the last of the suspension parts are done, most likely just after Christmas.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: fumopuc on December 17, 2016, 04:54:45 AM
Hi Chris, nice progress and excellent craftmanship.  Waiting for the roller chains.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 18, 2016, 02:27:16 PM
In planning out for the rest of the suspension parts, I realized another 'virtual' error in the 3d model - the open side of the 'C' in the main frame rails was pointing out rather than in, which put the axle bracket on the wrong side. Simple fix, just rotated the parts, all the dimensions and parts were correct, just were assembled backwards.
Here are new views of the outside
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ak9nfmn0n/Track_Suspension_2.jpg)
and inside
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ak9nfmn0n/Track_Suspension_2.jpg)
and a view without the crossbars to show how the axle bracket looks
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ak9nfmn0n/Track_Suspension_2.jpg)
and the view of all the parts together:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/limsxebif/Complete_Hauler_v54.jpg)
With that sorted, I am off to take the current axle assembly off the tracks for some paint, and then get started on the axle bracket parts...

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on December 18, 2016, 05:43:46 PM
Dog that is cooler then a crawfish hitting a pot of hot water.......I........like........ :Love:


Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: kvom on December 18, 2016, 06:19:18 PM
I mainly read this thread to learn more of Don's pithy expressions.   ;D   :lolb:

Actually it's a great build even without them.  Still trying to figure out what role the roller chain plays.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 18, 2016, 04:39:06 PM
Dog that is cooler then a crawfish hitting a pot of hot water.......I........like........ :Love:


Don

I mainly read this thread to learn more of Don's pithy expressions.   ;D   :lolb:

Actually it's a great build even without them.  Still trying to figure out what role the roller chain plays.

I love them too! I would have used Lobster in the saying, but both work!

The roller chain acts like a linear set of needle bearings, along the bottom of the track frame so that the track plates are not rubbing along the frame but instead riding on the rollers. It is interesting that in his original patents, Lombard used a row of discs just like a more modern army tank would have the road wheels (though the modern version has overlapping rows), but for some reason after the initial prototype he switched to the roller chain method instead. I don't know why, seems more complicated and expensive than a set of discs - I know he had problems with breakage on the track plates early on, and switched to a different steel alloy for them, maybe that was part of the reason.

Here is the picture of the roller chain on the real one again:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/r9xk1c93b/Real_Track_Side_View.jpg)
Imagine as the track is driven around, and the weight of the whole machine (19 tons) is pressing down, the tracks push up into the roller chain, which presses against the flange above it (there is a roller chain on the inside of the track frame as well). The rollers move back at half the speed of the tracks, turning as they go, just like a ball bearing race would. Pretty clever solution to support the tracks against the ground.  Maybe the reason for the switch was to get more points of contact than it was feasible with rows of the discs, which only had 4 they way he did it. Here is a picture from the patent, you can see the discs in the lower left view:
(https://s5.postimg.org/8a6f7lz9j/LBIII.jpg)
With the discs, maybe there were problems with the track plates rocking more, with the chain version they would have been held more even.
Its also interesting that in the patent, the drive chain was on the outside, where in production he moved it to the inside. Neat stuff.


Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: kvom on December 18, 2016, 06:45:44 PM
OK, roller chain makes perfect sense.

Now how does it steer?  Can one track be disconnected from the other?
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 18, 2016, 04:52:48 PM
OK, roller chain makes perfect sense.

Now how does it steer?  Can one track be disconnected from the other?

The steering was done just with the skis or wheels at the front, both tracks were always driven together. He did put a differential in the drive axle to allow the tracks the run at different speeds during a turn, but had not learned how to drive them independantly yet. According to the histories, he did experiment with having the differential earlier in the drive train, so the engines on either side could be run independantly, but found that when they got in sync with each other that the vibration made the machine want to hop up and down, so that was abandoned. The first prototype actually did not have the steerable ski, but used horses in front to pull it to the side, but that proved inefficient at best, and scared the road apples out of the horses when going downhill and the hauler sped up!
They ran the haulers on iced roadways, with ruts for the skis on the front and also the skis on the log sleds formed into the ice - they had machines (called 'rutters', imaginatively) they would pull along the roads to form the tracks and clear snow, and had crews pouring water at night to make the ice. The tracks on the hauler were on a wider stance, so they would not chew up the ruts.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 18, 2016, 04:58:38 PM
While waiting for the paint to dry on the axle assembly, I got blanks for the mounting bracket cut down out of a longer bar of 303 steel, milled the cut edges square, and laid out the first cuts. The box in the center shows where it will be made into a hollow box beam shape. As before, these lines are not milled to, but just are guides so I dont turn things around and mill the wrong side.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4akuzel8n/IMG_8936.jpg)
I started by milling the notch in one end where it fits around the main frame. The part still needs to be thinned a little, the bar was thicker than needed by a fraction.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qnslm7m6f/IMG_8937.jpg)
Here is the first bracket sitting next to the painted axle (dry to touch, needs to sit and cure for a while still)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/lqf113k7b/IMG_8938.jpg)
I'll get the other bracket notched, then continue with the shaping later...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 19, 2016, 12:33:29 AM
Continuing on with the axle support brackets, after milling the step in the end of both, I took a light cut off the back of the whole bracket to bring it down to the proper thickness (nearest size bar I had was one size up).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6vqfmxamf/IMG_8939.jpg)
and then turned them on their side to chain drill the slot in the wide section, since the original part was a casting shaped like a box beam with a tab sticking up. I drilled halfway through from each side
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wfsptcw07/IMG_8940.jpg)
and then used a mill to connect the holes up. This was done from either side, since the mill cutter is not long enough to reach all the way through (the part is a little over an inch wide).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6yab9re9z/IMG_8942.jpg)
and then came one of those 'nobody will ever be able to see this, but I'll know its there' moments - used a square needle file to square off the corners of the slot that the end mill left, to make it match the shape of the original part.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qhewj4d1j/IMG_8944.jpg)
And then back to the mill, chain drilling around the perimeter of the opening where the axle box will slide in.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/sn97dmghz/IMG_8945.jpg)
Followed by using the mill to take it out to size. You will note that I left the bottom in place - I will take that bit out last, after all the other shaping and drilling operations are done. Since the top tab will be shaped into a set of curves, if I cut the bottom opening out now then try and clamp it back in the vise, it would only have a narrow section at the top that goes full width.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ayhgm04qv/IMG_8946.jpg)
Here are the parts to this stage sitting next to the axle blocks that they will slip over.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mc8lay4nb/IMG_8947.jpg)
The next step will be to drill the mounting holes at the top, and shape the top into the curves like the original has. The paper to the side has the spacing for the holes worked out.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4apgd5amf/IMG_8948.jpg)
After that is done, I will go back and cut the bottom of the slot apart, and drill the holes in the base for the crossbar that closes the opening again, and angles up to the main frame.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on December 19, 2016, 01:17:25 AM
Still following along quietly but in amazement Chris!!  Don't know what else to say.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 19, 2016, 01:23:37 AM
Still following along quietly but in amazement Chris!!  Don't know what else to say.

Bill

Thanks Bill!

How about 'pass the popcorn'?  :embarassed:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 19, 2016, 03:48:35 AM
Dang...........that's a rather "busy" part!

It's been really interesting to see how you've taken the original drawings and figured out how to use bar stock to make the parts.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 19, 2016, 04:32:01 AM
Dang...........that's a rather "busy" part!

It's been really interesting to see how you've taken the original drawings and figured out how to use bar stock to make the parts.

Jim
Its got to be the most complicated bracket I've ever made!  If it was bigger I'd probably have made it from pieces, but at this size it was easier to carve it from solid. I'm sure the original was a cast part.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on December 19, 2016, 11:35:26 AM
Hi Chris,
 Its looking like a filing machine is needed in your Xmas Stocking!

Love what you are doing! Oh found a substitute for  :popcorn:.... Xmas mince pies! (Followed by a gym sub  :lolb:)

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 19, 2016, 01:13:37 PM
Hi Chris,
 Its looking like a filing machine is needed in your Xmas Stocking!

Love what you are doing! Oh found a substitute for  :popcorn:.... Xmas mince pies! (Followed by a gym sub  :lolb:)

Cheers Kerrin
A while back I bookmarked some filing machine builds, someday will make one... Not sure where I'd put it, shop is pretty full already!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 19, 2016, 08:25:33 PM
Continuing work on the axle brackets, next step was to decide how to fasten them to the main frame rails. Some of the parts on the original were bolted, some were rivetted - it was tough to tell how these brackets went on, so I decided to rivet them. The only pre-made small rivets that I have handy are all in brass, and besides wanting them to be steel, the brass ones were too short, so it was easy to decide to make them from bar stock. I can hear some of you out there right now, thinking I am nuts (pun!) to be making them, but it only took about 20 minutes to make 16 of them - not a big deal. They started out by turning the shank onto a length of bar stock:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5ee62uknb/IMG_8949.jpg)
and then parting them off:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tw69qqn7r/IMG_8951.jpg)
These steps actually went quick because of two very handy features: a quick change tool post and zero-resettable handwheels, so once the first one was laid out, it was very quick to turn the same diameter over and over, counting turns from the end to get the length right.
After the parts were all done to that stage, each was chucked up once more by the shank, and a quick spin to smooth off the little nub that the parting tool left, as well as rounding over the head:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rg4gcw553/IMG_8953.jpg)
leaving this little pile of rivets:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/upivjct8n/IMG_8955.jpg)
With that done, I could then know what size holes to drill in the bracket tops:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ue1f6lcsn/IMG_8957.jpg)
and then drilled/tapped the holes in the base for the angled crossbar to be made later:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5yt75jdvr/IMG_8958.jpg)
At this point, it was time to shape the top of the bracket into the curves that the original has. I started out by doing the concave sections with the mill, doing the same cut on each part and each side before moving on so that the two brackets would be symetric and match each other:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7rw3tuz2f/IMG_8960.jpg)
and the over to the disc/belt sander to do the outer curves (done on the left one in the photo):
(https://s5.postimg.cc/pjcbm23uv/IMG_8961.jpg)
leaving the parts at this stage:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rcf8adp1j/IMG_8962.jpg)
Last step was to cut out the remaining part of the base, to free up the two sides and leave the slot. That was done with the hacksaw, then a few light passes on the mill to get it flush to the sides:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9aw3ckv0n/IMG_8963.jpg)
And the brackets are done! One needed a couple strokes of the file to get it to slide easily on the axle.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3nzqf3shz/IMG_8966.jpg)
and here is where it will spend more of its time, once the spring frame is in place, with the rivets in the holes to show how they will look:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/h7gkkt6h3/IMG_8968.jpg)
And the obligatory family shots:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qgiquxfd3/IMG_8970.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/cbcxt46br/IMG_8972.jpg)
Next stage I think will be making the angle brace that goes across the bottom of the brackets, and angle up to the bottom of the main frame...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: kvom on December 19, 2016, 11:19:21 PM
I would have suggested drive screws as an alternative to rivets, with solder as the primary attachment.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 19, 2016, 09:24:37 PM
I would have suggested drive screws as an alternative to rivets, with solder as the primary attachment.
This is setting the stage for the rest of the boiler/etc brackets, which are rivets in a lot of places on the original. The boiler and water tank will have many many of them.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 20, 2016, 01:23:34 AM
The angle braces for the bottom of the axle bracket are done, pretty straightforward pieces to make, they are a simple flat bar (plus a short reinforcing bar at the center), bent to shape and drilled for mount holes in the center and the ends.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/vs28tdqtj/IMG_8975.jpg)
Here is what they look like bolted into place - the main frame will run across the center bracket, and the ends of the angled bar bolt into the bottom of the frame rail.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ur20499tz/IMG_8976.jpg)
Again with some paint added
(https://s5.postimg.cc/479f249af/IMG_8978.jpg)
and some shots with them bolted onto the axles...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/72mi8zdaf/IMG_8984.jpg)
With the black parts, its getting tough to arrange the lighting for decent pictures.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/lzzknqfwn/IMG_8986.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/n3jozp0jr/IMG_8988.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/h3vxw1frb/IMG_8990.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 20, 2016, 01:50:44 AM
Oh - and I should mention that the angle bar is one of the few places that I have used plain tool steel rather than stainless, since I could not find any 303 in the thin/narrow sizes, like 1/16" x 1/4" and 1/16" x 3/16".

Does anyone know if there is a source for 303 stainless in sizes like that? I've rarely seen it in sizes under 1/8" thick.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 20, 2016, 05:18:49 AM
Another nice step forward Chris.  :ThumbsUp:

I see a picture of your belt sander. What I can see of it looks nice. What kind is it?

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 20, 2016, 03:59:50 AM
Another nice step forward Chris.  :ThumbsUp:

I see a picture of your belt sander. What I can see of it looks nice. What kind is it?

Jim
Its a dremel belt/disc sander I picked up years ago, takes 1" belts and sticky back 5" discs. I like the Sandvik/Klingspor belts and discs. Very handy unit for quick rounding of corners. The corners on the brackets took less time than to take the picture, just a quick swipe while turning the part on the table. Much quicker than setting up the rotab would have been, and these are just decorative edges so absolute precision is not an issue. I use same sander for bevelling rudders and fins on the subs, etc.

Was just in the shop, had forgotten to put in the tensioning bolts on the bearing blocks, added those and they worked to tighten up the tracks, very cool!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: rwenig on December 20, 2016, 11:13:14 PM
Your page on the Lombard hauler construction was just pointed out to me. I must say a challenging job and beautiful construction. If you didn't know, the Western Development Museum in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan has a full size one which they run from time to time. The model they have has a vertical engine.
    Did you find the chain links you were looking for? I'm not sure if they are made in the size your looking for but they are available as "half links" for bicycle chain and larger chain.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 21, 2016, 02:20:07 AM
Your page on the Lombard hauler construction was just pointed out to me. I must say a challenging job and beautiful construction. If you didn't know, the Western Development Museum in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan has a full size one which they run from time to time. The model they have has a vertical engine.
    Did you find the chain links you were looking for? I'm not sure if they are made in the size your looking for but they are available as "half links" for bicycle chain and larger chain.
The vertical engine version was made by a company called Phoenix that licensed the patent for the tracks from Lombard. They had a twin cylinder engine on each side, rather than the single horizontal one per side than tne Lombard, but the displacement was less per cylinder, so the net power was simaler. They also used a shaft drive vs the chain drive. Other than that, very close to same machine. Both are fascinating machines.

I was not aware of the half link chains, they would be perfect for the drive chains, right shape, but I don't see them anywhere in a nbr 25 or 35 chain  other than as individual links, which would be very expensive. Do you know of any source for full chains in those sizes?

The track roller chains are unique in that the cross pin has a roller that is larger than the hieght of the side plates, and also are shaped like the half link chains. At this point I am assuming that I will need to make them, but if you can point me to a source for smaller sizes that would be great. So far I have found them only in acetal plastic, which is not durable enough.

Thanks for the tip on the half link chains, will do some more looking...

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on December 21, 2016, 12:28:08 AM
Lots more progress Chris, I think you got that warp drive thingy going again. Either that or the shop elves are putting something in the cookies  :lolb: Seriously nice work though!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 21, 2016, 02:50:59 AM
Lots more progress Chris, I think you got that warp drive thingy going again. Either that or the shop elves are putting something in the cookies  :lolb: Seriously nice work though!!

Bill

Actually I prefer using my vortex manipulator, less cost per year travelled than the Tardis...   :Lol:

Though usually the shop elves just turn loose the Cyber-Elf that they built me, it makes part overnight for me.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/i525rkslj/IMG_8991.jpg)


Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on December 21, 2016, 01:38:57 AM
That dude looks like he would eat stainless steel cookies!! :o

Seriously good lookin' track assys Chris!! :ThumbsUp:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 21, 2016, 01:40:50 AM
Is this any help?
https://concordsheetmetal.com/materials/stainless-steel/?gclid=CLO0vsmThNECFRmewAodOyADdw
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 21, 2016, 04:13:44 AM
Is this any help?
https://concordsheetmetal.com/materials/stainless-steel/?gclid=CLO0vsmThNECFRmewAodOyADdw
What I've been looking for is 303 in the thinner sizes (like 1/16) in flat strip stock rather than sheet stock, since I don't have a good way to cut or shear off even strips. In lieu of that, have been using tool steel strips, which I have been able to find. Thanks for the pointer though!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 21, 2016, 05:08:56 AM

The track roller chains are unique in that the cross pin has a roller that is larger than the hieght of the side plates, and also are shaped like the half link chains. At this point I am assuming that I will need to make them, but if you can point me to a source for smaller sizes that would be great. So far I have found them only in acetal plastic, which is not durable enough.


Lets see..........it looks like 40 rollers per chain and 4 chains...........thats only 160 rollers to knock out! Hopefully it's of a diameter that you can buy stock for. Then there's the side plates. The bright side is that making those chains should be a small project compared to the tracks! Christmas is coming, so that might give you some leverage with the shop elves!  :Lol:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 21, 2016, 05:43:33 AM

The track roller chains are unique in that the cross pin has a roller that is larger than the hieght of the side plates, and also are shaped like the half link chains. At this point I am assuming that I will need to make them, but if you can point me to a source for smaller sizes that would be great. So far I have found them only in acetal plastic, which is not durable enough.


Lets see..........it looks like 40 rollers per chain and 4 chains...........thats only 160 rollers to knock out! Hopefully it's of a diameter that you can buy stock for. Then there's the side plates. The bright side is that making those chains should be a small project compared to the tracks! Christmas is coming, so that might give you some leverage with the shop elves!  :Lol:

Jim
Then there are the drive chains, at least only two of them....
As with the track plates, jigs and fixtures will be the key to knocking out mass quantities of the parts. I have some ideas for them, will see how it plays out. The parts themselves are simple shapes, simpler than the tracks were, at least.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: rwenig on December 21, 2016, 06:37:02 AM
    The half links are sold as individual parts. They are sometimes called "offset links". Here is one source <https://www.thebigbearingstore.com/offset-links/>. Scroll down to the #35 and #25 size. Another link <http://www.andymark.com/Roller-Chain-25-Series-p/am-0682.htm>. Any place that sells the chain should have the half links. I think the chain and links are available in SS as well.
    Wish I could help you on the rollers but I suspect your right that you will have to make them.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: rwenig on December 21, 2016, 06:42:57 AM
Quote
The vertical engine version was made by a company called Phoenix that licensed the patent for the tracks from Lombard. They had a twin cylinder engine on each side, rather than the single horizontal one per side than tne Lombard, but the displacement was less per cylinder, so the net power was simaler. They also used a shaft drive vs the chain drive. Other than that, very close to same machine. Both are fascinating machines.

   I stand corrected I should have remembered the Phoenix.
Rupert
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: rwenig on December 21, 2016, 06:44:33 AM
#25 SS half links at <http://www.rollerchain4less.com/Offeset-Link-25-Stainless-Steel-Half-Link_p_1748.html>
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 21, 2016, 03:10:05 PM
    The half links are sold as individual parts. They are sometimes called "offset links". Here is one source <https://www.thebigbearingstore.com/offset-links/>. Scroll down to the #35 and #25 size. Another link <http://www.andymark.com/Roller-Chain-25-Series-p/am-0682.htm>. Any place that sells the chain should have the half links. I think the chain and links are available in SS as well.
    Wish I could help you on the rollers but I suspect your right that you will have to make them.
Yeah - that was all I could find in the 25 series was the individual half links - at those prices though, the chains I would need would cost a bundle to make up, so I think I will stay on the make-em-myself path. The larger 1/2" pitch chains like on bikes is available a number of places all made up in full chains, will keep that in mind for future projects. Thanks for the look!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on December 21, 2016, 06:34:55 PM
I done ate 6 bags of hog cracklings and 6 links of boudin and damn Dog you just keep going like a alligator is hot on ass. Your putting this old coonass to shame son with all that speedy work........ :ThumbsUp:


Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on December 21, 2016, 06:52:45 PM
Darn Don,  if you had red beans and rice with the boudin he might could use you as the torch on the next soldering op,  just saying  :lolb:. Chris,  if you aren't familiar,  Google boudin and yes they  (and I ) eat it  :lolb: :lolb:

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 21, 2016, 09:11:07 PM
I done ate 6 bags of hog cracklings and 6 links of boudin and damn Dog you just keep going like a alligator is hot on ass. Your putting this old coonass to shame son with all that speedy work........ :ThumbsUp:


Don

Darn Don,  if you had red beans and rice with the boudin he might could use you as the torch on the next soldering op,  just saying  :lolb: . Chris,  if you aren't familiar,  Google boudin and yes they  (and I ) eat it  :lolb: :lolb:

Cletus

Um, I have very little idea WHAT the heck you guys said!

Yup, another damn yankee northerner here!!  :cheers:


 Assuming it was about food, I'll mention that I just got back from a great lunch with a couple old friends that I used to work with, had the batter-dipped Haddock, yum!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on December 21, 2016, 07:29:59 PM
Ha, I slipped in the back kitchen and fried me some beer battered Pollock for lunch  :lolb:

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Jo on December 21, 2016, 07:42:25 PM
Ha, I slipped in the back kitchen and fried me some beer battered Pollock for lunch  :lolb:

Cletus

Even the cat turns its nose up at Pollock   (http://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/smilie/ekelig/g026.gif)

Jo
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on December 21, 2016, 07:46:15 PM
Picky cat, I thought it quite tasty
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on December 21, 2016, 10:27:23 PM
Ha, I slipped in the back kitchen and fried me some beer battered Pollock for lunch  :lolb:

Cletus
I guess it's somewhat like a pogie fish except pogie are very oily. We eat it but also make fertilizer and perfume with it. They are High in protein.

Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 21, 2016, 11:32:14 PM
Ha, I slipped in the back kitchen and fried me some beer battered Pollock for lunch  :lolb:

Cletus
I guess it's somewhat like a pogie fish except pogie are very oily. We eat it but also make fertilizer and perfume with it. They are High in protein.

Don

Guess I'm picky too, use Pollock for the bait fish it is!   :disappointed:   At least the stuff the mass packagers use. My favorite is Haddock, fresh off the dock up in Maine.... Mmmmmmmm.....!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 21, 2016, 10:05:43 PM
Ha, I slipped in the back kitchen and fried me some beer battered Pollock for lunch  :lolb:

Cletus
I guess it's somewhat like a pogie fish except pogie are very oily. We eat it but also make fertilizer and perfume with it. They are High in protein.

Don

Guess I'm picky too, use Pollock for the bait fish it is!   :disappointed:   At least the stuff the mass packagers use. My favorite is Haddock, fresh off the dock up in Maine.... Mmmmmmmm.....!

It's Ling Cod ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingcod ) for me when it comes to fish and chips!

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 21, 2016, 10:08:45 PM
Moving on to the last set of the suspension parts, its time to make the stirrups that hold the springs up against the bottoms of the frame rails. I cut off a length of 3/8" x 1" bar long enough to get all 4 parts plus some to hold with, and started by drilling a series of holes around the inside of the openings.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4v4xz7ksn/IMG_8993.jpg)
and then, realizing that I should have first cut the little notches in one side of each to allow the side bars to sit in tighter and clear the axle clamps, went back and did that next.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/i0kg5beo7/IMG_8994.jpg)
Now, back on track, I ran a hacksaw down the rows of holes and broke out the center strip, so that I could start milling the inside surfaces of the u-shaped stirrups to size:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/q7cfww4qv/IMG_8995.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/sq2qbbfuv/IMG_8996.jpg)
This took the sides to size, but left the bottom corners round,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/pki4l3x8n/IMG_8997.jpg)
so stood the block up and did another pass to take the bottom surface down and square up the corners:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wozxu54hz/IMG_8998.jpg)
and then cut the 4 stirrups apart from the block:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ar3h0cphj/IMG_8999.jpg)
Next time I will clean up the cut edges, and prepare the side bars, which will bolt to the upper sides of the stirrups....
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 22, 2016, 03:41:46 AM
That's all really nice Chris, but what does that have to do with cooking and eating white fish?  :Lol:

Oh wait..........this is the machining channel.............not the food channel................my bad!  :lolb:

Anyway, the parts, or parts within a part look great.

Jim

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 22, 2016, 06:21:05 AM
That's all really nice Chris, but what does that have to do with cooking and eating white fish?  :Lol:

Oh wait..........this is the machining channel.............not the food channel................my bad!  :lolb:

Anyway, the parts, or parts within a part look great.

Jim

Thanks Zee... I mean Jim!   :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 22, 2016, 04:46:39 AM
That's all really nice Chris, but what does that have to do with cooking and eating white fish?  :Lol:

Oh wait..........this is the machining channel.............not the food channel................my bad!  :lolb:

Anyway, the parts, or parts within a part look great.

Jim


Thanks Zee... I mean Jim!   :lolb:
:mischief:
Speaking of Zee.........where is that boy? I miss his posts. I learned a lot from him.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Roger B on December 22, 2016, 11:13:08 AM
Excellent tracks  :praise2: and a good, if brief, food section (even if I didn't understand it all  :headscratch: )
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 22, 2016, 06:38:49 PM
I was watching some of the videos on the Maine logging museum website, great stuff,  here are a couple that are particularly interesting:

Lombard hauling logs in the winter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFTe4KRmod8

The museums hauler, first snow run after restoration:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdUC2-X7CRI

Their run from this past November:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIACtwYil7M

and their full page of videos:
http://www.maineforestandloggingmuseum.org/lombard-steam-log-hauler-38-runs
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 22, 2016, 06:49:56 PM
After flattening the cut edges on the stirrups with the mill (no pics, all you could see was the outer edge above the vise anyway), on to the crossbars. A set of four were cut to length, and then two of them were rabbetted at the ends so that they would form a half-lap joint. This is needed so that the bars will clear the axle clamps.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/d7eh5ombr/IMG_9000.jpg)
and then holes were drilled for the mounting bolts at both ends of the crossbars
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rf45ubz0n/IMG_9001.jpg)
and matching holes in the tops of the stirrups. It was important that the holes in two of them were mirrored, so that the holes match with both ends of the crossbars.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/omayaayo7/IMG_9002.jpg)
Last hole was for a mounting bolt in the bottom of the stirrup, that will hold the spring retainer cone later, I need to find (or make) a set of springs first, to know the size of the cone.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ah558hpmv/IMG_9004.jpg)
Got the first set tapped and bolted together...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/jdfxcfg93/IMG_9006.jpg)
and a couple shots of how it fits onto the axle bracket. It rests on the top flat of the axle box, and the springs in the stirrups will press against the bottom of the frame rails.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ueb2hg8hz/IMG_9007.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/71d0yxsef/IMG_9008.jpg)
I think getting the springs and the cones sorted out will be the final pieces of the suspension. A little paint, then on to the roller chains.
One thing I have coming in the mail is some gun blueing chemicals, I want to experiment with that, as a possible alternative to painting everything. I'll post some pics of how that works out next week...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: GailinNM on December 23, 2016, 09:10:05 AM
It's all your fault Chris.

 This great thread inspired me to start building a long desired IC powered crawler tractor.  I borrowed a few of your elves, bribed them with milk and chocolate chip cookies, and turned them loose on the CAD system.  Must have fed them too many cookies.  They got fat and lazy and took a long winters nap.  So, I had to start the design myself with only the shop dog for assistance.

Thanks for the boot in the back side with this great tread.

Tractor Thread starts at:
http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php?topic=6737.new#new

Gail in NM
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 23, 2016, 03:37:54 PM
It's all your fault Chris.

 This great thread inspired me to start building a long desired IC powered crawler tractor.  I borrowed a few of your elves, bribed them with milk and chocolate chip cookies, and turned them loose on the CAD system.  Must have fed them too many cookies.  They got fat and lazy and took a long winters nap.  So, I had to start the design myself with only the shop dog for assistance.

Thanks for the boot in the back side with this great tread.

Tractor Thread starts at:
http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php?topic=6737.new#new

Gail in NM
Blame gleefully accepted!! (Snicker)

After doing a number of static engines, it seemed time for one that could move itself around, and the crawler style is something not done that often.

And just like Gremlins, you have to be careful how much/when you feed the shop elves!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 23, 2016, 04:58:49 PM
I've been playing around with the shapes for the roller chain that supports the bottom of the tracks, and have gotten it modelled up in 3D
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kk7g2dtdz/Roller_Chain_Sprocket_v6.jpg)
The way I am thinking at the moment, the rollers will be a seperate piece than the pins, since the pins will be rivetted over at the ends and won't spin well. The pins narrow down after they go through the roller and the first track rail, so that when I rivet the end the outer track rail will go up against the shoulder.

At least that is the current plan, we'll see how that holds up to the first test parts! All will be steel, with the side rails bent to shape from 1/16" x 1/8" stock, then drilled, then cut off the longer bar.

In order to do the bending, I've been playing with shapes for a bending jig:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kk7g2dtdz/Roller_Chain_Sprocket_v6.jpg)
This one will let me form both sides in one go, so that the distance in the center will always be the same - that is the critical length. The form blocks on top will be bolted on, so I can change/modify them as needed. I will probably also need some sort of locating/holding jig for the drilling operation, to repeatably position in the mill vise without much fiddling.

The shaping on the pins should be doable with a parting tool in the lathe, so I don't think I need any fixtures for that. Yet. I think...

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 23, 2016, 09:52:47 PM
And got a start on the bending jig for the chain side rails. Started by milling the recesses in the end of a couple blocks of steel bar
(https://s5.postimg.cc/up0yjrgnb/IMG_9009.jpg)
and then positioned them for drilling for the bolts to hold them all together. Took a little fiddling to get things to line up, but not bad:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/57ik05yx3/IMG_9010.jpg)
Here it is ready for its first test bend - the handles are back, and some thin flat stock slipped into place (marked where that one was, figure it will take a couple tries to find out how far through to have it project)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/myu6emebr/IMG_9011.jpg)
and both handles pulled in tight (well, pic shows one back a little, ran out of hands to hold it and take the picture)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5a2fn02kn/IMG_9012.jpg)
and the shape on the test bar:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/60v5ss4xz/IMG_9014.jpg)
It is pretty close, may need to grind a little off one side of the form blocks to adjust the over travel since the amount of spring back I allowed for was a guess. It looks like the blocks are not being held quite solidly enough, there is a little slop in the bolt holes. I might get it lined up again and run in some drive fit pins, was tempted to silver solder them down, but I don't want to make it THAT permenant if I dont have to. Some dowel or taper pins should do the trick.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on December 24, 2016, 02:24:25 AM
Now, just add a shear and hydraulic actuator then come back in the morning and they'll all be bent, cut and ready!!

 :noidea:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 24, 2016, 02:57:21 AM
Now, just add a shear and hydraulic actuator then come back in the morning and they'll all be bent, cut and ready!!

 :noidea:

Pete
Sounds like a Mythbusters build! Shears, hydraulic pump, C4, blast shields...

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on December 24, 2016, 05:33:38 PM
Nice jig Chris! That's a lot of parts to make for sure, but that should make them consistent. Gonna need some more popcorn or recipes while following along  :)

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 24, 2016, 11:57:24 PM
Thanks Bill! No new work on it today other than throwing some loctite in under the form blocks, still want to run a set of pins.

That will be after Christmas, lots of family and friends stuff for a few days, also got a couple of bottles of a fantastic Belgian Triple abbey style ale from a friend with a microbrewery to test out, awesome taste, sneaky strong kick to it too (around a 12% alcohol content!). Goes great with dark chocolate, but puts shop off limits!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on December 25, 2016, 12:40:43 AM
Enjoy Chris, probably best to keep it away from the shop elves though, a few sips and they would be snookered  :lolb:

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 25, 2016, 02:45:48 AM
After a suitably safe desnookering time I sent one of the shop elves back to drill/ream/install a taper pin near the business end of each form block, and the sideways movement went away, the rail bending jig is ready for action next week! The bending action generates a lot more twisting force than I had expected. Leverage works!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 25, 2016, 09:34:33 PM
The gun cold blueing chemicals I had on order arrived yesterday, and got a quick test. On Brownell's website they have some great tutorial videos on how to use a lot of the gunsmithing products they sell, and the one on blueing mentioned that since there are SO many different alloys of steel and stainless steel, that it is hard to predict which one will work best on any given alloy without testing. They showed several different products that have cold application solutions, which do not require heating the metal, hot tanks, etc, which is much more attractive for doing numerous small parts in a home shop. I picked three of them as well as a can of thier TCE degreaser spray, which does not leave any of its own residue behind.

So, on to the test. I grabbed an offcut piece of 303 stainless off the bench, and gave it a spray of the degreaser, then wiped that off with a clean paper towel. No other sanding, buffing, steel wooling, etc, since I wanted to know how it would behave on parts that have areas that I cannot get sanded clean, which is more typical of the parts on this model. So a quick degrease, then applied a couple drops of each solution on a section of the metal, let sit for a minute, then rinsed off. They recommend using another spray of the degreaser to nutralize the chemicals and stop the reaction. Here is a photo of the results, with the product used behind each test patch:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/l9ccyg0sn/IMG_9015.jpg)
and a close up:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/d58u7g3rb/IMG_9016.jpg)
On this metal, it is a clear winner with the Birchwood Super Blue - a nice solid dark black finish. All three appear to be a durable color, at least to handling and fingernail scraping. On a different alloy, one of the others could well do better. I have used simaler brass and aluminum blackening formulations, there again the results varied with the alloy.

Given these results, I may well use this for a finish on the rest of the frame parts rather than painting, which looks very good but is not as durable to handling and use - the track and axle frames already have scrapes through the paint in places. Since this is going to be an operating model, the blueing process looks like a better way to go at the moment.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 26, 2016, 03:37:28 AM
Well, big correction on the bluing post!

I was curious if the bluing chemicals would work for touching up the scratches in the paint on the stainless parts without messing up the surrounding paint, and was surprised to see absolutely nothing happening. Anywhere. Then dabbed some on the the test piece from earlier, nice reaction. Then pulled some fresh bar, still has the 303 stainless label on it, and found the chemicals might have well been water for all the nothing they did. Turns out the test piece I tried must have been a chunk of CRS or maybe some W1 steel. Near as I can find out, cold bluing on stainless is limited to certain alloys, 303 not being one of them.

So, the test I showed is fine for other alloys, not for stainless. Whoops!!   :facepalm:    :noidea:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Johnmcc69 on December 26, 2016, 02:37:46 AM
 :ThumbsUp:
 Thanks for posting the findings Chris. A friend of my who is a gun collector has mentioned trying some of these....I've mentioned your build  (& my excitement), about building model engines, He's getting closer.  :slap: As always, fantastic build,  :embarassed: I was going to mention to you about some of the track parts losing a little paint earlier from playing with them too much..but, how could you not? I love it all.

 I hope the shop elves treated you well for Christmas, didn't eat too many cookies, & had visions of Lombard haulers dancing in your head.

 Looking forward to the book.  :stir:

 John
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 26, 2016, 05:00:14 AM
:ThumbsUp:
 Thanks for posting the findings Chris. A friend of my who is a gun collector has mentioned trying some of these....I've mentioned your build  (& my excitement), about building model engines, He's getting closer.  :slap: As always, fantastic build,  :embarassed: I was going to mention to you about some of the track parts losing a little paint earlier from playing with them too much..but, how could you not? I love it all.

 I hope the shop elves treated you well for Christmas, didn't eat too many cookies, & had visions of Lombard haulers dancing in your head.

 Looking forward to the book.  :stir:

 John

Thanks John! Christmas went great here, just out with the elves looking at all the stars, got some nice tools today, lotsa food, good time had by all!

I've been going back and 3d modelling the fixtures, generating views and plan sheets for everything, plus accumulating old pics and articles for the book. I have been in touch with the people up at the museum in Maine and have a couple trips there planned forthis spring and summer. Can't wait!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 26, 2016, 05:01:07 AM
Well, big correction on the bluing post!

I was curious if the bluing chemicals would work for touching up the scratches in the paint on the stainless parts without messing up the surrounding paint, and was surprised to see absolutely nothing happening. Anywhere. Then dabbed some on the the test piece from earlier, nice reaction. Then pulled some fresh bar, still has the 303 stainless label on it, and found the chemicals might have well been water for all the nothing they did. Turns out the test piece I tried must have been a chunk of CRS or maybe some W1 steel. Near as I can find out, cold bluing on stainless is limited to certain alloys, 303 not being one of them.

So, the test I showed is fine for other alloys, not for stainless. Whoops!!   :facepalm:    :noidea:

Chris,

Elvis Presley did a song about this called "Blue (ing) Christmas" if I remember the title correctly!  :naughty:

Your results today reminds me of this quote:  “I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work.”  :shrug:
― Thomas A. Edison

Merry Christmas to you and your helpers.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on December 26, 2016, 06:04:34 AM
The blueing/blackening of sstl, out side of an industrial setting, has been a holy grail of gunsmiths for a long time, Chris. I wanted to say something when you first posted the testing but decided to wait. For all I knew, Brownells had come up with the magic elixer!!  But not to be.

The gas cylinder/front sight base on the Garand rifle is stainless steel. It's blackened at the 'factory' and the finish is great. But after a lot of use it wears off and makes shiney places not desired on combat equipment. Armorers have wanted something besides paint but no joy..... yet!

This project of yours is just wonderful!!

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 26, 2016, 06:29:10 AM
Always fun to learn something new, at least new to me!

Some chemistry student somewhere probably came up with what we need, just didn't know it, and flushed it!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: AOG on December 26, 2016, 06:12:25 AM
Chemical blueing is a form of corrosion layer. The stainless part of of stainless steel inhibits good corrosion as well as bad corrosion. That's why you had problems. On another note chemical blueing isn't very robust. It will rub right off under handleing loads. That's one of the reasons I switched to hot blueing. It's still not as robust as a commercial blue but it's more durable than the chemical stuff and you have control of the shade you get.

Tony
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 26, 2016, 06:47:27 PM
Well, so much for the 'blues'! I've gone back to experimenting with the fixtures/parts for the roller chains, making a set, checking fit, tweaking sizes in the plans, repeating....

More details in a few days when I get the process sorted out....
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 26, 2016, 05:31:45 PM
Well, so much for the 'blues'! I've gone back to experimenting with the fixtures/parts for the roller chains, making a set, checking fit, tweaking sizes in the plans, repeating....

More details in a few days when I get the process sorted out....

I'm looking forward to the next installment, Chris.

Also, I've been meaning to mention that I really enjoyed the Lombard videos you posted. Having followed along on your track building project, it was neat to see them working in real life.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 26, 2016, 07:46:18 PM
Well, so much for the 'blues'! I've gone back to experimenting with the fixtures/parts for the roller chains, making a set, checking fit, tweaking sizes in the plans, repeating....

More details in a few days when I get the process sorted out....

I'm looking forward to the next installment, Chris.

Also, I've been meaning to mention that I really enjoyed the Lombard videos you posted. Having followed along on your track building project, it was neat to see them working in real life.

Jim
Thanks Jim, I particularly liked the ones where they were out in the snow. Can't wait to get up there and see it running in person.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 28, 2016, 04:00:41 PM
All right, the holiday festivities are winding down, time to get back into the shop again....

One of the tool presents this year was a small powered chop saw from MicroMark, nice little unit with both wood cutting blades and metal cutting abrasive wheels:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tu0og1h53/IMG_9017.jpg)
Nice little unit, should make cutting the side plates for the chains much easier! There are a number of cheap knockoffs of these saws, from what I have seen they are worth the cheaper price - this one is much better built.
Here is a test on some of the bar stock I was using to test the bending jig:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/y4fcbmm87/IMG_9019.jpg)
Nice clean cut, the vise holds well, though I think I am going to rig up a length stop for doing repeated cuts. With the small toothed blade it should be a handy addition for the wood models as well.

Back on the chains, I did some experiments with the link pins. The initial design calls for doing the pins with a step to hold the outer plate, rivetting over the ends to hold it all in place. Note the word initial - more on that below.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tu0og1h53/IMG_9017.jpg)
I made up a test part, starting with cutting the end step in a longer length of bar stock in the lathe using a parting tool
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7xe5fo3yf/IMG_9020.jpg)
and then moving the bar out since it is too thin to use the parting tool that far out from the chuck, and cranking in the distance from the first step to position another one at the other end
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ecd6ccao7/IMG_9021.jpg)
and then parting off the piece
(https://s5.postimg.cc/sk2v0znd3/IMG_9022.jpg)
Then I got out the rivetting fixture I made earlier for the track pins, and drilled a new hole at the end so that I could let the side rail overhang
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tnmzcy807/IMG_9024.jpg)
positioned the rail on the stepped post,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/vgpw19t6v/IMG_9025.jpg)
and peaned it over with a ball peen hammer. I think the post I started with was a little tall, leaving the head larger than I would want - one of the things to fine tune.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/i12vbtkp3/IMG_9026.jpg)
Here are the parts so far, ready to slide in the other rails, the roller, and peen over the other side.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/hplez2493/IMG_9029.jpg)
All that goes fairly simply and quick, but it does require lots of steps for each pin, and also drilling different sized holes in each end of the side rails, which would get old quickly. I did another test with just rivetting over the head of the full diameter rod, without the step, and think that it will work out just as well. The rod was stiff enough that it did not bend, and only headed over at the end being hammered. So, once I get the first few side rails and rollers made I will try that method as well. Given that I need to make four roller chains, each 30 or 40 links long, plus two simaler drive chains, the simpler they are the better. I am still waiting on my order of the narrower bar stock for the side rails, hope that will be here in the next couple days.
In the meantime I got started on the rollers for the center of the chain. They are a simple thing to make, drill a 1/2" deep hole in the end of some round steel bar, and part off two rollers (filing the corners round as I go).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/y2022j7yf/IMG_9031.jpg)
Move the bar out and repeat.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3yljal4p3/IMG_9032.jpg)
After a couple of short sessions, making about 30 at a time, I had the pile needed for the roller chains. Just need to nip off the little burs left by the parting tool (they pull off with pliers very easily).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9badopslj/IMG_9033.jpg)
While waiting for the side rail stock, I am going to do some more experiments with the pins to see how well the non-stepped versions work, and figure out exactly how long they need to be to rivet over without tightening down on the inner rails. Then I can mass produce a pile of those.
The bending jig is working for the side rail stock, I think I will also need a holding jig for drilling them - should be able to make up a simple jig to align and hold them in the mill vise.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 28, 2016, 04:50:07 PM
While I was on the computer, figured I might as well make up the plan for the rail drilling fixture in 3D. Here is a screen grab of it:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/oy1n236dj/Chain_Rail_Drilling_Fixture_v2.jpg)
The main part of it is thinner than the side rails are wide, so that it will let the vise grab the rail parts rather than the fixture. The top and one side edges were left thicker to rest on top of the vise jaws, so that it will always position the same. To use, I can slip it into the vise, put in 3 of the rail parts (limited by the width of the vise jaws), and clamp down the vise. Then I can crank horizontally along, drilling all the holes, and know that the positions are repeatable. The slots where the parts will go are spaced at .600 centers, so once the mill is zeroed on the first on, it will be even numbers of turns on the handwheel to get to the next one.

Once I get to drilling the parts, I'll show it in use...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on December 28, 2016, 05:47:11 PM
Awesome work Chris your just one little busy beaver, you don't come up for air. I have that Micromark chop saw and very disappointed with it. No power when cutting metal parts and takes forever. It's great for the real small stuff but .5" or more sucks.


Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 28, 2016, 07:18:50 PM
Awesome work Chris your just one little busy beaver, you don't come up for air. I have that Micromark chop saw and very disappointed with it. No power when cutting metal parts and takes forever. It's great for the real small stuff but .5" or more sucks.


Don

I would agree with that - it cuts the thin steel (1/8" or so) with no problem, I can see where it would bog down for thicker stock, but for that I would get out the hacksaw or the recip saw anyway. For the little parts, like the chain rails and pins that I am going to be cutting, it looks to be fine.

Otherwise its like a crawfish trying to be a lobster! (hows that for an attempt at Southern humor?)   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: vcutajar on December 28, 2016, 08:02:34 PM
Congratulations on your new toy.

Vince
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 30, 2016, 12:34:34 AM
All right, got a couple other tasks out of the way, and the metal bar (1/16" x 1/8") for the chain side rails arrived today, so time to get back to the chain construction. The bending fixture is putting out consistant results - been a few posts, so here is the bender again:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/myu6emebr/IMG_9011.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5a2fn02kn/IMG_9012.jpg)
and I added a stop block to the new little chop saw - just a block of wood stuck on with a drop of superglue for now, I want to go back and make an adjustable one later on. The block is positioned so that it just touches the front corner of the bar being cut, so it wont jam the part against the blade when it cuts through.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/jqh0h06pz/IMG_9040.jpg)
I have bent and cut a set of the side rails, here is how they look set up with one of the rollers:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/z9ege4f0n/IMG_9037.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/x6416gf7r/IMG_9038.jpg)
Now I need to make the drilling jig
(https://s5.postimg.cc/oy1n236dj/Chain_Rail_Drilling_Fixture_v2.jpg)
so that I can test with the cross pins, and fine tune the length of the pins so that when the ends are rivetted they are a close fit, but don't bind the inner rails from pivotting...


Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: GailinNM on December 29, 2016, 11:15:07 PM
Looking great  Chris.
Little parts are sluch fun.  Reminds me of a cartoon from years ago that shows several men crawling aroundon the floor of the office of Micro Parts, Inc.  Caption read "We dropped last weeks production".
Gail in NM
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 30, 2016, 01:59:28 AM
Looking great  Chris.
Little parts are sluch fun.  Reminds me of a cartoon from years ago that shows several men crawling aroundon the floor of the office of Micro Parts, Inc.  Caption read "We dropped last weeks production".
Gail in NM

 :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 30, 2016, 10:13:59 PM
Some more progress on the chains, so far so good! I started today by making the drilling jig for the chain side rails. Picked a chunk of 5/8" wide brass that was thicker than the rails are wide, then milled down the face of it, leaving 0.100" rails on the top and one side:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7vdkejrpj/IMG_9041.jpg)
then switched to a smaller end mill and evened up the inside corner, finishing with a notch so that the corner will fit square onto the top corner of the mill vise, so I can index it the same every time from there:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/52kcuird3/IMG_9042.jpg)
Then, flipped it up vertical, with a parallel bar under it to make sure it was level to the mill, and milled out the wider openings in the top:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5td30atqf/IMG_9043.jpg)
then a deeper cut for one side of each opening, for the lower leg of the rails to drop into:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/s6ktn3uo7/IMG_9044.jpg)
Here is how the rails will sit in the jig. The jig will sit down on the top rail, so the rails will be held by the vise:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qst6rsvev/IMG_9045.jpg)
And the first test run, three parts held in place, centered up the front/back travel on the table on the part and locked that down, then positioned the drill at one end and zeroed the handwheel so I can get back there quickly. To use, start at the zero position on the right, drill, advance 6-1/2 turns, drill, advance 5-1/2 turns to next part, and repeat.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/e2oyepngn/IMG_9046.jpg)
followed by the actual drill
(https://s5.postimg.cc/58y1xm0hz/IMG_9048.jpg)
And here are the first set of parts. If the vise was wider, I would have made 4 (or more) at a time. At least this way, it is repeatable positioning with minimum time, and only one drill change every three parts.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kixx4sw07/IMG_9049.jpg)
After a trial fit, I decided to go from a 3/32 drill (which matched the size of the rod), up to a 0.096 drill so the parts would move easier. Here is a picture with the first cross pin rivetted in place, and the next one (at the top) just slid into place to show the continuation. What I did was peen over one end of the rod in the rivetting jig, assemble the parts for the one link, then hold it on the anvil and peened over the other end of the pin.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ogps7y87b/IMG_9051.jpg)
The first pin that I cut was a little too long, so I removed it by filing off the head, and tried another one 10 thou shorter - that seems to be the sweet spot, no slop, but loose enough for the rails and roller to pivot. Here is a shot of where it will slide in at the bottom of the track:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/o58bv6rrb/IMG_9052.jpg)
I may need to go back and grind a little bit off the round roller guide at the ends, where the chain turns around, it looks like it might rub on the chain rail as it makes the turn. But, all in all, it looks like I can go into mass production mode on these parts. One set down, 143 to go.... 
 :o
I think there will be a number of sessions at the bench interspersed with some time on the computer designing up the next parts (sprockets, differential, frame) in the 3D program over the next week...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 31, 2016, 12:37:59 AM
In trying to decide whether to use the lathe to part off the pins to length, or set up the chop saw with the abrasive wheel to do it, I was noticing that the rod (some 3/32 steel) was not parting cleanly, and seemed to be moving in the chuck. So I stopped, ran the bar out a few inches and tightened up the chuck again, and wiggled the outer end - could see the bar moving sideways back and forth in the chuck. So I shone a light behind it, and could see that the chuck jaws are only touching the bar at the innermost corner, leaving an unsupported V down each jaw face.

As the Mythbusters would say, Well - There's Your Problem!

I then put in some 3/8" bar, same gap. This would explain sometimes when threading bar with the tailstock die holder and larger thread sizes, that sometimes the bar would slip in the chuck, leaving a score around the bar at the inside corner of the chuck jaws.

I then got out my older 3-jaw chuck (also Sherline brand) that I had left set up with the jaws reversed to avoid the chore of reversing them back and forth constantly for larger or smaller stock, set up for normal inward jaws, and tried that one: it clamps down evenly on the whole length of the jaws. Parting off with that chuck went nice and smooth, without the movement and wobbling.

So, questions for you guys: is the gap I am seeing due to a worn set of jaws and/or chuck? Is it supposed to be that way? If not, anything I can do to fix this short of buying a new chuck?

 :help:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: GailinNM on December 31, 2016, 01:47:59 AM
Can you reverse the jaws on the newer chuck and see if it is OK on larger stock? If so use it for larger diameter stock and use the older one for smaller.
Gail in NM
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 31, 2016, 02:37:39 AM
Can you reverse the jaws on the newer chuck and see if it is OK on larger stock? If so use it for larger diameter stock and use the older one for smaller.
Gail in NM

Hi Gail,

On larger stock with the jaws reversed it only grips on the shorter steps, which on these chucks is only about 3/16", so it would be fine for that. The one thing I much preferred about the newer chuck was that they staggered the tommy-bar holes around the rim, so that there was always a pair positioned well for tighten/loosening, on the older chuck they are evenly spaced a 3rd apart, so on some stock the positions are awkward. Small price to pay for a better grip, so I may do as you suggest if there is no easy/cheap way to fix the newer one. For now I will continue using the old one.

Chris
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 31, 2016, 02:58:34 AM
I ran through and bent/cut to length a bars worth (3' long) of the side rail stock, enough for about 3 dozen pairs of side rails. Went pretty quickly, less than an hour. Then got started turning down some more pins to test the length on them some more. To repeatably cut the to length quickly, I took the frame from the dial indicator holder, took out the indicator, and swung it in till it would touch the end of the rod. Starting with the parting tool lined up with the end of the rod, I cranked in the distance equal to the desired length of the pin, and tightened down the indicator frame.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tymz9hssn/IMG_9053.jpg)
With this setup, I can loosen the chuck, run the rod out till it touches the frame, tighten the chuck, then run the parting tool inwards to cut to that length. Instant length stop, as long as I leave the long axis feed crank in the same spot for each part.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/s83y80b9j/IMG_9054.jpg)
After cutting a few of them, I drilled some more side rails, and did a test assemble:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/k55rwoqo7/IMG_9056.jpg)
Not bad, but a little tight, could use a little longer pin to let it flex easily, figure if it lays over under its own weight than it should be fine for the model.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/u16uwbwg7/IMG_9055.jpg)
So, will adjust it back out a little and try again. The assembled chain segments can be recycled (except for the pins) by filing off the head of a pin and pushing it back through. A couple more tests and it should be good. If I was setting up a cnc machine to do this, I would probably go back to the stepped pins, but for manual machining the simple straight pins are much faster to do.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on December 31, 2016, 04:27:06 AM
Those links really look the part Chris!!  Your patience and persistence are to be admired as your results plainly show!! 

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 31, 2016, 04:30:02 AM
Those links really look the part Chris!!  Your patience and persistence are to be admired as your results plainly show!! 

Bill
Thanks Bill, with the jigs it looks like it will be quicker to make than the tracks were, there are a couple dozen more parts but they are lots simpler.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: /// on December 31, 2016, 07:56:56 AM
Very very nice. Really enjoying following your build!  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on December 31, 2016, 08:17:47 AM
 :popcorn: :popcorn:
Looking good Chris!

Wonder if my rivet squeezzer would work on those pins, wouldnt need the mod ive done.
 The standard head with the right bits would probably work

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: gbritnell on December 31, 2016, 03:26:06 PM
Chris,
I'm truly enjoying this build. Your fixture work is extremely informative and I really like the bending jig.
This is going to be an amazing machine.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 31, 2016, 03:42:01 PM
:popcorn: :popcorn:
Looking good Chris!

Wonder if my rivet squeezzer would work on those pins, wouldnt need the mod ive done.
 The standard head with the right bits would probably work

Cheers Kerrin

I built a simaler squeezer tool a couple of months ago when Florian did posts on his, it works great on the shorter rivets, but on these long pins there is a tendency for it to widen farther down or bend since it is such a slow pressure. Doing it with a hammer  is working very well, the quick impacts just heading over on the last 10 thou or so. The squeezer tool is going to get a big workout on parts like the water tank and the faux firebox shell.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 31, 2016, 03:42:47 PM
Chris,
I'm truly enjoying this build. Your fixture work is extremely informative and I really like the bending jig.
This is going to be an amazing machine.
gbritnell

Very very nice. Really enjoying following your build!  :ThumbsUp:

Thankx!!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on December 31, 2016, 03:56:22 PM
Hi Chris,
 Yep can see how that would happen! Haven't used mine in anger yet, always seems to be something that pops to the top of the list. Made it to close 3/16 steel rivets for the loco frames, its a 16 ton wire crimper so its got enuff drive its just the "C" arms that may not hold up! Shouldn't be a problem on the 3/64 ones for the tanks, even though they are stainless!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on December 31, 2016, 04:20:50 PM
Hi Chris,
 Yep can see how that would happen! Haven't used mine in anger yet, always seems to be something that pops to the top of the list. Made it to close 3/16 steel rivets for the loco frames, its a 16 ton wire crimper so its got enuff drive its just the "C" arms that may not hold up! Shouldn't be a problem on the 3/64 ones for the tanks, even though they are stainless!

Cheers Kerrin
Mine will be much easier, being brass rivets. 16 tons ought to form yours just fine!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 02, 2017, 03:42:39 AM
In between holiday events/visits, and another trip to the local Y pool with the RC submarine group, I've been getting some more done on the parts for the track roller chains. So far I have all the rollers made, and have now gotten all the side rails bent
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6avtx1tzb/IMG_9059.jpg)
and with the aid of a newly whipped up adjustable length stop on the mini chop saw set up with an abrasive cutoff wheel,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/libtheltz/IMG_9058.jpg)
now have the side rails cut to size:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8gq4rjxfr/IMG_9060.jpg)
Last jobs before assembling the chains will be to cut the pins, and drill the side rails. I've decided to cut the pins on the chop saw, can do that lots quicker than stopping/starting/rechucking the lathe for each pin.

For those who may have missed it, these roller chains are actually used as roller bearings, not for driving any mechanism. The roller is taller than the side rails, so that they sit between the track plates and the track support frame, and act like a linear set of bearings:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/limsxebif/Complete_Hauler_v54.jpg)
This setup is unlike the rows of wheels that most crawlers use today - Lombard actually started with using the wheels, but I think he switched since he could not get the wheels to bear on more than every other track plate, and the chains get one or two on every plate.

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 02, 2017, 08:46:06 PM
Continuing on the roller chain process with todays entry in Boring Pictures Of Parts, I got the pins for the chains all cut to length after doing some more experiments with lengths:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/hnrb4ppmv/IMG_9062.jpg)
I now have enough of the rollers, pins, and side plates for all four of the roller chains, time to start drilling the side plates and assembling the chains.

Then, can start again for the drive chains, which are simaler, slightly different dimensions and with a smaller center roller.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: sco on January 02, 2017, 08:50:49 PM
Chris,

Been following your thread quietly for a while - takes a special kind of person that can do both quality and quantity  :praise2: for your efforts on both counts!

Simon.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on January 02, 2017, 08:54:39 PM
Very nice Chris.  I really love seeing the jigs and fixtures you make to help with your mass production.  You'll have these chains done soon!

Will the drive chains be the same? Or will the rollers be smaller for those?
Kim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 02, 2017, 09:01:51 PM
Very nice Chris.  I really love seeing the jigs and fixtures you make to help with your mass production.  You'll have these chains done soon!

Will the drive chains be the same? Or will the rollers be smaller for those?
Kim

The drive chains will have a roller that is a little narrower and also a smaller diameter, and the side plates will be 3/16" wide rather than 1/8" wide, to leave a little more meat around the pin holes to take the drive stresses. The shape of the side plates will be the same Z, so the chains look very simaler. Fortunately there are only two of those chains, even though they are a little longer each.

The drive chains will go around a large sprocket at the rear, and a smaller sprocket that sits on the end of the output shaft from the differential assembly.  If you go back to the first post in this thread there are pictures of the differential and the drive chains as well as the real roller chains for comparison.

In between drilling/assembling chains, I am going to start on the 3D modelling for those parts this week...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on January 02, 2017, 09:12:38 PM
Even starting the New Year with a bang! Damn Dog you don't come up for air do you? Some amazing fixture work and craftsmanship Dog.


 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 03, 2017, 02:20:20 AM
Even starting the New Year with a bang! Damn Dog you don't come up for air do you? Some amazing fixture work and craftsmanship Dog.


 :drinking-41:
Don

Thanks Don! Actually did take a bunch of time off during the holidays, lots of other fun stuff going on.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 03, 2017, 02:27:49 AM
With the roller chain work going on (and on) for the foreseeable future, I have been alternating time with modelling up the next set of parts in 3D (as well as the usual assortment of other hobbies and projects). I started with the drive chain parts, which are derived from the roller chains, with larger side plates, smaller rollers, and a 10% longer pitch:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/t816tv4zr/Drive_Chain_Assembly_v8.jpg)
From there, did some more research into the formulas used to derive sprockets, and drew up the front drive sprocket that goes on the output shaft from the differential
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tgyb0f0uf/Drive_Sprockets_v7_Rear.jpg)
and the rear sprocket, that goes on the rear shaft of the track drive axle (still need to add the spokes to the design, fortunately as that is done, the application carries the changes forward into the other assemblies that this one is in)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tgyb0f0uf/Drive_Sprockets_v7_Rear.jpg)
and then put the three parts together (with lots of copies of the chain components) into the full drive chain
(https://s5.postimg.cc/t816tv4zr/Drive_Chain_Assembly_v8.jpg)
and also pasted that assembly into the full hauler design (as it is so far)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/limsxebif/Complete_Hauler_v54.jpg)
Looking quite busy in that picture - the Fusion 360 app I am using got a bit slow when moving those components into place!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 03, 2017, 03:13:09 AM
Chris--I can fully appreciate how much work there is in 3D modeling all of those connected chain links. I just found out about 2 months ago that my Solidworks 3D software now has the capability to pattern chain-links around a sketched line. Of course, you have to do the math and have the segments of sketched line all add up to a length divisible by the chain pitch. It is a nifty piece of software, but not something I would probably use on normal "for pay" jobs. I love the work you are doing, and check every day to see your progress.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 03, 2017, 03:34:59 AM
Chris--I can fully appreciate how much work there is in 3D modeling all of those connected chain links. I just found out about 2 months ago that my Solidworks 3D software now has the capability to pattern chain-links around a sketched line. Of course, you have to do the math and have the segments of sketched line all add up to a length divisible by the chain pitch. It is a nifty piece of software, but not something I would probably use on normal "for pay" jobs. I love the work you are doing, and check every day to see your progress.---Brian
Thanks Brian!

The full chain was pretty easy to copy and paste up once the base link was done, kept copying all that were there and pasting them in a multiple of the pitch down the line till the straight line was done, copied all that for second side, then just had to manually position the curved ones. I bet there is a path/paste option or plugin, just don't know how yet since I am still learning the package. This way only took about 5 minutes, given its not set up for animation at all. That would be more complicated for sure.

The feature I really appreciate is the timeline, can edit an earlier step with different parameters and it automatically updates all the later operations and dependant drawings. Very cool.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: /// on January 03, 2017, 04:51:18 AM
.... can edit an earlier step with different parameters and it automatically updates all the later operations and dependant drawings. Very cool.

The video/audio editing world calls this NLE, or non-linear editing.
I wouldn't touch a 3D package that did't have this, I'm not aware of any that don't.

Really ejoying following your build, great stuff (and educational!)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 03, 2017, 05:03:07 AM
.... can edit an earlier step with different parameters and it automatically updates all the later operations and dependant drawings. Very cool.

The video/audio editing world calls this NLE, or non-linear editing.
I wouldn't touch a 3D package that did't have this, I'm not aware of any that don't.

Really ejoying following your build, great stuff (and educational!)
Thanks!

It would be great if the lathe had that feature, change one cut in the past and all the rest of the part grows! Gotta keep debugging my time machine....  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on January 03, 2017, 05:16:36 AM
Good explanation on your roller chains. I remember having one of those "ah-ha" moments when I was looking at some of your earlier pictures, showing these chains, and realized how they were being used. OK.........I'm a little slow...........but I do get the idea eventually!  :shrug:

I've moved some heavy stuff with pipe rollers on the floor using the same principle. I was amazed at how little effort it took once set up. Stone for the pyramids were probably moved the same way.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 03, 2017, 06:19:51 AM
Thanks Jim, it was pleasantly surprising to me how well it rolled the first time I slid a short section of the roller chain (all that is made so far) under the frame for the track to ride on. Those guys were very clever. It still amazes me how heavy machines like this  locos, and traction engines were.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 03, 2017, 07:29:05 PM
I did some more work on the chains this morning before having to head off to other things, with the drilling jig it is going fairly quickly, looks like I can drill, debur with a file, assemble, and rivet about a dozen or more links per hour. Not quick, but not that bad. Here is the first section:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/u2rva9laf/IMG_9065.jpg)
and how they sit under the track frame and come around the end
(https://s5.postimg.cc/oq30w4xdz/IMG_9064.jpg)
and going back across the top
(https://s5.postimg.cc/v2i65z0g7/IMG_9063.jpg)
The first couple links I did the other day needed some rework since they were binding a bit, the ones done with the longer pins are flexing just fine. I think I will need to grind the lower edge of the track frame trim at the rear down a little so it clears the chain rails better, the rest is looking good.
At this pace (about 2-1/2 hours per chain), I'll probably have the roller chains done this week, and get started on cutting parts for the drive chains.

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 04, 2017, 02:45:59 AM
Every time you add more pieces Chris, it just looks more and more amazing. Awesome!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 04, 2017, 04:40:34 AM
Every time you add more pieces Chris, it just looks more and more amazing. Awesome!!

Bill
Thanks Bill, I got the chain making process down pat now, just a matter of turning the crank, as it were. The first 4 links are going to get repinned now that the dimensions are worked out, the rest are moving nicely. Probably have one full chain set every two or three days now.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 04, 2017, 10:53:18 PM
One roller chain down, 3 to go!   :whoohoo:

(https://s5.postimg.cc/urehyfo5j/IMG_9067.jpg)
It worked out to be 35 links per chain to be a good fit on the track frame. I was a little worried that I'd need to put in one or two slightly longer or shorter links to get a reasonable fit since there is no adjustment for length on that chain like there is on the others, but lucked out.

And as I suspected, I need to grind off the a little on the lower edge of the trim flange at the front edge (left side in the picture) of the track plates to let the chain go by unobstructed.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on January 04, 2017, 09:05:04 PM
That came out great Chris.  :ThumbsUp:

I couldn't remember what supports the top run of the chain, so went back to page 30 and saw that it can just sag down and run along on the top of the longitudinal frame (whatever you call it).

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: vcutajar on January 04, 2017, 09:11:51 PM
Chris, that roller chain came out really well.

Vince
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 04, 2017, 11:23:34 PM
That came out great Chris.  :ThumbsUp:

I couldn't remember what supports the top run of the chain, so went back to page 30 and saw that it can just sag down and run along on the top of the longitudinal frame (whatever you call it).

Jim
Yup - and the chain is held from sliding off horizontally both by the grooves in the inside of the track plates, by the back wall of the frame, and by the lip of the lower track frame. It just sags down against the top of the box beam (that is what I call it anyway).
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 04, 2017, 11:25:00 PM
Chris, that roller chain came out really well.

Vince

Thanks Vince!  I would have liked to make the side rails from slightly thinner stock, but this was as close as I could find, it almost matches the scaled dimensions of the real one. Close enough for me!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: fumopuc on January 05, 2017, 01:31:48 AM
Hi Chris, a pleasure to watch. Some day this model will make the same drving noise like the real one. A monster jangling with the chains.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 06, 2017, 10:37:49 PM
Hi Chris, a pleasure to watch. Some day this model will make the same drving noise like the real one. A monster jangling with the chains.
All sorts of noises, steam hissing, chain jangling, tracks clanking, whistle blowing.... Should be fun!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 06, 2017, 10:40:39 PM
Some good progress today, the second track roller chain is done, two more to go (and then the two drive chains). The process is getting streamlined a bit, things like using the tabletop 1" belt sander to debur the drill holes on the side rails, etc is really saving time and wear/tear on the fingertips. Currently drilling, deburring, assembling, and riveting about a dozen full links in about a 45 minute session.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/f7ujnzdvr/IMG_9068.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on January 06, 2017, 11:00:39 PM
Geeeez no master link...... :lolb:   Some nice work as usual Chris.... :ThumbsUp:

Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on January 07, 2017, 12:00:10 AM
 :popcorn: :popcorn:

Hi Chris,
 Still following, great progress, the chain sure looks the part (s)

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 07, 2017, 12:07:51 AM
Geeeez no master link...... :lolb:   Some nice work as usual Chris.... :ThumbsUp:

Don

To paraphrase (badly) the Brit game show, "I AM the weakest link, Hello!".

Um, lets see, err, the cotter pin is on the underside in the photo. Yeah, thats it!

Actually, on the real one, they used two different setups over time, one all riveted, the other with cotter pins on every link. With the side roller chains, there was nothing to obstruct removing them out the sides, so they could be taken out without a master link. For the drive chains, there had to be a master link to remove/replace since it went around other axles.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: GailinNM on January 06, 2017, 10:17:59 PM
The chains are great Chris.  And the best part is that   you are doing them and not me.
Gail in NM
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 07, 2017, 02:13:40 AM
The chains are great Chris.  And the best part is that   you are doing them and not me.
Gail in NM

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 07, 2017, 02:21:27 AM
In between sessions working on the chains, I have been spending some time modelling up future parts in 3D to generate the plans from. 
 :atcomputer:

As I mentioned in an earlier post, the rear drive chain sprockets still needed spokes added:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/t816tv4zr/Drive_Chain_Assembly_v8.jpg)

More recently, laid out the main frame parts
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5qc945nuv/Main_Frame_v27.jpg)
and added them to the complete hauler design
(https://s5.postimg.cc/limsxebif/Complete_Hauler_v54.jpg)
The placement of the frame parts is still up in the air, I need to make some more measurements on the photos of the real engine, and compare them to the partial measurements available on the drawings from the museum, and then finalize the locations of the angled cross braces and the drawbar frames at the rear. In addition to these crossbars, there are additional large ones that are part of the differential and engine mounts, plus the boiler has a large cast mount at the front, a bar to the middle, and the firebox mounts at the back. So, the frame design is a work in progress still.

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 08, 2017, 08:10:45 PM
Three track roller chains down, just one more to go! (and then two drive chains....)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/pfs8rqj2f/IMG_9069.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on January 09, 2017, 02:24:20 AM
Man Chris, that is looking really good.  Lots of little detail in every one of those.

You know, they might make good bracelets too - you could sell them at the craft fair!  :Jester:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 09, 2017, 02:30:32 AM
Man Chris, that is looking really good.  Lots of little detail in every one of those.

You know, they might make good bracelets too - you could sell them at the craft fair!  :Jester:

Kim

Bracelets! Get Your Bracelets Here!  Only $5000 each!    :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on January 09, 2017, 02:32:19 AM
They'll be selling like hot cakes!  (or maybe like mint chocolate chip cookies!)
Kim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 09, 2017, 02:33:55 AM
Got some more done on the 3D version of the model, made up the front bracket that holds the smokebox end of the boiler to the frame.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/eu8dfqcqv/Boiler_Front_Bracket_v6.jpg)
and got it positioned on the main frame, as well as correcting the size/position of the other components on the frame (the cross rails were not in correct place, and frame was too wide).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/limsxebif/Complete_Hauler_v54.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on January 09, 2017, 12:55:04 AM
Nice looking part Chris.

Fabricated or machined form solid?


Dave
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 09, 2017, 01:31:23 AM
Nice looking part Chris.

Fabricated or machined form solid?


Dave
Probably fabricated, it would take a big chunk of metal (little bigger than 2"x3"x3/8"), but not sure. Might do the sides and middle out of square bar, and join the 3 pieces. That is still a ways away, so time to let the brain chew on it!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on January 09, 2017, 02:50:02 AM
More good progress, Chris!

I like those 3d drawings. Sure makes it easy to understand what it is you're doing. One of these days I'm going to have to buy that book "3D Drawing for Dummies" so I can see how this is done.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 09, 2017, 08:40:01 PM
More good progress, Chris!

I like those 3d drawings. Sure makes it easy to understand what it is you're doing. One of these days I'm going to have to buy that book "3D Drawing for Dummies" so I can see how this is done.

Jim

If you go to AutoDesk's website for Fusion 360, they have a whole series of great tutorial videos - that is how I picked it up.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 09, 2017, 08:42:55 PM
And the roller chains are DONE!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4peb3wjk7/IMG_9071.jpg)
Just need to do a little trimming on the flange on the end of the track plate where the chain wraps around, probably do that with a rotary tool, and I can install them.

Now that the roller chains are done, I can move on to something completely different, like the drive chains.... wait.... oh crap...

Sigh.

At least there are only two, and the links are longer so fewer than there might have been... But, given the practice I've had they will go fairly quick.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on January 10, 2017, 05:09:06 AM
More good progress, Chris!

I like those 3d drawings. Sure makes it easy to understand what it is you're doing. One of these days I'm going to have to buy that book "3D Drawing for Dummies" so I can see how this is done.

Jim

If you go to AutoDesk's website for Fusion 360, they have a whole series of great tutorial videos - that is how I picked it up.

Went over and looked at AutoDesk's website. Like you said..........lots of good tutorials there. That'll be fun to play around with at some point. Geez.............so many fun things to explore and so little time!  :wallbang: I still fail to understand how folks can get bored in retirement. Not this crowd, that's for sure!

The roller chains came out great. Looking forward to seeing them mounted.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 20, 2017, 01:58:50 AM
FYI - now that the forum is back, but back in time slightly, I will repost the progress since then later tonight from my backup copy in Word. None of the back and forth posts, but at least I have the progress posts...

 :atcomputer:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 20, 2017, 02:07:53 AM
 I did some fitting work on the roller chains, trimming back the end flange on the vertical track frame to let the chain go by cleanly, and got one major step forward:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3n2sAzhEwA
 As you can see in the video, it operates properly, the chain going around as the tracks move.
 
 But, one minor step backwards. On the real hauler, the chains are held in place by the flanges on the cylinders at each end plus the flange on the bottom of the lower track frame as well as the groove in the inside of the track plates. But, those flanges are only 1/2" or 3/4" in full scale, and at 1/12th that they get pretty shallow. When rolling the tracks back and forth, they work fine for a short time and then have a tendancy to climb past the flange and derail themselves.
 
 I think this is a place where departing from strict scale accuracy (scaliness?! no, thats not right!) is neccessary for this model, since I want to be able to run it outdoors for long runs. What I think I am going to do is cut off the cylinder guides at the ends of the roller chains, and make a set of small sprockets on ajustable plates to hold the chains and allow for adding some tension to them. The sprockets will hold the chains from the inside, just like a bicycle chain, so they can't wander to the side and jump the grooves. It won't look that different, the only part easily visible will be the tooth or two visible in the gap between the chains - that could be covered with a small flange possibly.
 
 Time for some quick 3D modelling of the sprockets, and a little disassembly of the tracks....
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 20, 2017, 02:09:48 AM
 I have modelled up the sprocket and bracket I talked about in the previous post:
 
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kk7g2dtdz/Roller_Chain_Sprocket_v6.jpg)
The sprocket will spin on a shoulder bolt that also forms the outer guide on the left, which will keep it looking like the original cylinder. The bracket on the right has a recessed slot for socket head screws, allowing for some adjustment.
 
 
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 20, 2017, 02:12:35 AM
 Got a start on the sprockets for the roller chain end brackets. Started with a chunk of 3/4" 303 stainless bar, and drilled the axle hole on the lathe,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/jpphu3ax3/IMG_9087.jpg)
 and then moved the chuck and bar over to the rotary table on the mill, set the mill depth for the thickness of the sprocket, and cut the valleys of the sprocket 60 degrees apart:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gwwaa2akn/IMG_9089.jpg)
 Then to make the sloped sides of the teeth, offset the mill .230 in, and the table by 15 degrees, and made another pass on each tooth:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/o1e3j3htz/IMG_9090.jpg)
 and then .230 back the other way from zero and 15 degrees the other wayfor another pass:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/sbsreomx3/IMG_9091.jpg)
 That completed the tooth shapes, so moved the chuck back onto the lathe, and tapered the ends of the teeth a bit on the one side so that they will self center on the links of the chain:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6qsa4tfk7/IMG_9092.jpg)
 and then parted off the sprocket, leaving it slightly thick to allow for a cleanup pass:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3xz2ksf7r/IMG_9094.jpg)
 and tapered the other side while holding it in the 3-jaw (handy that it is 6 teeth) :
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ojducowsn/IMG_9095.jpg)
 Here is the finished sprocket
(https://s5.postimg.cc/a2qky47bb/IMG_9097.jpg)
 and testing it in the chain - runs very smooth!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bgi7tf6kn/IMG_9096.jpg)
 So, that proves out the design for the sprocket, time to make 7 more of them!
 
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 20, 2017, 02:13:08 AM
The rest of the roller chain sprockets are made:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/t55tqo9vr/IMG_9098.jpg)
 Next up will be the brackets and stepped bolt guides to hold them in place...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 20, 2017, 02:14:35 AM
Got the first batch of the sprocket end guide bolts made, 4 down 4 to go. Started with a length of 303 steel bar, and turned in the shape of the guide:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/eah8ci0av/IMG_9099.jpg)
 and then parted it off and drilled/bored the hollow in the end to make it look more like the original cylindrical guides:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/78jaqawp3/IMG_9100.jpg)
 Here is what it looks like with the sprocket in place,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/m5rrrb9xj/IMG_9101.jpg)
 and the chain around that,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dc0va7myv/IMG_9102.jpg)
 and sitting in front of the track plate where it will be installed, once the brackets are made and the old cylinder guides cut off:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/zch7qu5mv/IMG_9103.jpg)
 This should run much smoother, and not slip off like the first attempt. More parts tomorrow...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 20, 2017, 02:16:00 AM
 Some more done on the roller chain sprocket brackets this evening. Started with some 1/4" square 303 bar, and took one side down to make two .200 x .250 bars, each long enough for 4 brackets:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mpjtxak93/IMG_9104.jpg)
 and then drilled the 4-40 tap holes for the sprocket bolts, and the clearance holes for the adjustment slots:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3lqigy7ev/IMG_9105.jpg)
 followed with milling out the recess for the bolt heads so the clear the sprockets. There will not be enough room for hex heads and wrenches, so these will be socket head screws.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bfr42cf7r/IMG_9106.jpg)
 Here is the first set of brackets, ready to be cut apart and the ends cleaned up. You can also see here that I have added some short lengths of 4-40 screw threads to the base of the shoulder bolts. When I originally drew them up, I was thinking that I would turn in the section for the threads, and thread with a die, but realized that for such short sections of thread that need to go right up to the shoulder, that I was better off drilling and tapping both the bracket and the shoulder bolt and adding some threaded rod cut from a screw. The rod is held into the shoulder bolt with some red loctite. This way I can be sure to be able to draw up the bolt completely. The axle portion that the sprocket rides on is slightly longer than the thickness of the sprocket, so they can spin freely.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/411s9ytc7/IMG_9107.jpg)
 Next up is to cut the brackets off the longer bar, and then cut the cylinder guide off the track frames so I can fit these new sprocket assemblies...
 
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 20, 2017, 02:17:46 AM
 Today I started the modifications to the track frames to take the new sprockets. Started by cutting apart the brackets from the longer bar,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/vb9rw191j/IMG_9109.jpg)
 then milling off the old cylinder guides,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4rh6tw8hz/IMG_9110.jpg)
 and marking out for the mount holes for the new brackets
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5xl6sowsn/IMG_9113.jpg)
 and getting the chains fitted/tensioned
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kutntpa13/IMG_9114.jpg)
 
 Here is a test of the reassembled first track - all seems to be working, not derailing any more:
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3n2sAzhEwA
 
 So, on to modifying the second frame...
 

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 20, 2017, 02:18:41 AM
 Well, after an afternoon of fussy fiddling, fettling, and filing of a fecundity of fussy fileable parts, and generally farting around, I got the second track frame reassembled and working well with the new sprockets on the roller sprockets.
 
(https://s5.postimg.cc/hw0zv6lmv/IMG_9118.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qfkdsxtzb/IMG_9120.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/vfhu0vzlz/IMG_9122.jpg)
 Now, on to making the main frame – going to take a break from chain making and work on that for a little while…
 

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 20, 2017, 02:28:07 AM
All right, recovered the progress posts from my backup document, time to move forward on the build!

I have gotten the bars for the main frame cut to length, drilled, tapped, and ready for silver soldering them together. The frames are a shallow C cross section, could have milled out of a thicker bar, but getting a two foot length milled evenly would have been tricky, would have needed multiple steps on the mill since that is much longer than the available travel. Plus I need silver solder practice! The socket head screws you see in the photos are temporary for the soldering, and will be milled off flush. Fortunately the weather here is unusually mild this week, so I should be able to get outside for the torch work tomorrow.
Here I first drilled the holes in the wider bars to form the wider part of the C at the top/bottom, drilled every 2" along the length:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bjzmqkmpz/IMG_9124.jpg)
then drilled/tapped the first couple holes in the center bar to match,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rw9ogb11j/IMG_9125.jpg)
and then used the holes in the outer bars as drill guides to do the rest of the holes:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/70ne524uf/IMG_9127.jpg)
And a couple of shots of the bars all bolted up, ready for soldering:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/phhsvvksn/IMG_9131.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/60x39cpon/IMG_9132.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 20, 2017, 02:53:49 AM
I've also been doing some more work on the the 3D model, got more of the brackets and such on the main frame - going to need to know where they are so I can drill the holes for them after the soldering work - much easier to do them all at once rather than taking everything apart multiple times later as each bracket gets made.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/5qc945nuv/Main_Frame_v27.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/limsxebif/Complete_Hauler_v54.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 21, 2017, 02:12:29 PM
Yesterday I got the frame rails outside to get silver soldered up, went fairly well, still need to practice that skill some more but it worked:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/upuwu5qmf/IMG_9134.jpg)
and then got some updates done on the 3D version of the frame,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5qc945nuv/Main_Frame_v27.jpg)
and started in on making the crossmembers. First up are the brackets that go around the outside of the frame at the back, and hold the towing drawbar mechanism. These are made from flat steel bar, bent to shape. I used a small torch to heat up the bend area and bent them with pliers.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5l3wgqr5z/IMG_9135.jpg)
That got the length close to right, and did some fine tuning on the end of the vise with a hammer to draw the bend around to the right length between the bends.
Next was the shorter frame that goes on the inside, the sizes on these are not as critical, as long as they come out the same, so I scribed in the positions of the bends and did the ends first:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/95zrzyvpj/IMG_9136.jpg)
and then the middle ones
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7s854nwg7/IMG_9137.jpg)
Here are the completed rails, ready for drilling for fasteners.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9lfn6q70n/IMG_9138.jpg)
The center rails will be held to the longer rail with rivets, then the whole assembly will get bolted to the ends of the main frame rails. I need to make up a clamping jig for drilling the ends - I thought about drilling the ends before bending, but did not think I could predict the bends well enough to get the positions of the holes correct, so the rails will be clamped to a block in the vise for drilling - more on that next time...

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Johnmcc69 on January 21, 2017, 03:15:19 PM
As always, FANTASTIC WORK Chris!! This is coming along very nicely.

  :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: John
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 21, 2017, 03:54:05 PM
Wonderful fabrication Chris. And thanks also for reposting what was lost in the server transfer. The frames are looking great !!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 22, 2017, 03:41:01 PM
Before this mornings update on the build, a side trip: laid my hands on one of these metal die-cast models of a Bucyrus 95 ton rail-mounted excavator (like the ones used at Panama Canal).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6wpy1ckcn/IMG_9147.jpg)
Tons of detail in it, bunch of operating parts in the mechanism. It is 1:48 scale, not that big, but would serve as a great starting point for plans to model up a larger scale one someday, maybe....   :thinking:

(https://s5.postimg.cc/e8ve6w2kn/IMG_9140.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/5rvvvyxvr/IMG_9145.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/l1vr35tdz/IMG_9146.jpg)


Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 22, 2017, 03:47:25 PM
This morning got some more done on the main frame. I made up a little hardwood block to hold the drawbar frames for drilling the holes in the end to mount them to the main rails:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5vppc83d3/IMG_9150.jpg)
and then clamped in the inner rails for drilling
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tb7mhkn47/IMG_9152.jpg)
and riveting
(https://s5.postimg.cc/urj4zpq13/IMG_9153.jpg)
and then drilled the holes in the middle for mounting the drawbar mechanism itself
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4khy3r7rb/IMG_9155.jpg)
and then drilled/tapped the holes in the back ends of the main rails for the drawbar framework
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4lrvx69l3/IMG_9156.jpg)
and also the holes at the front end for the bolster block that runs across the front end and holds the steering mechanism
(https://s5.postimg.cc/k7e9e8ruv/IMG_9157.jpg)
The front bolster on the real thing is a wood timber, I think for the model I am going to make it out of metal for extra rigidity for the steering gear.
Here is the frame with the drawbar frames test fitted - they will have to come off again to drill the rest of the mounting holes along the main rails for all the other crossbars and mounting flanges....
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3kwp55yx3/IMG_9158.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on January 22, 2017, 04:17:37 PM
More good work Chris. I'm impressed that you were able to bend the drawbar frames so accurately and get the correct spacing. Well done.

That model of the Bucyrus 95 ton rail-mounted excavator is a dandy! If you haven't already seen it, here's a video I found about it's use in Panama: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2S3w1h_Pd_8 Wha a project that was!

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 22, 2017, 07:23:55 PM
Thats a great video Jim!

That got me doing some more looking around, found this one with footage of old Lombard Haulers in action, very neat to see them at work:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSq7x6edExI
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: paul gough on January 22, 2017, 09:16:19 PM
Just got back from my second sojourn up north, (Asia). I have been catching up on the posts of your build and have to say I'm astonished at what you are/have achieved. I think you are certainly a master of the miniature machine tool, and obviously know these tiny Sherlines intimately, it appears you can get almost anything you need out of them. I am pretty sure you would fill a large hole in the model engineering publication offerings by doing a 'How To Build a Lombard with Micro machines' or some such. The fact that you are making something out of the ordinary and using very small equipment might be a very attractive proposition to many potential model makers who like a book on the bench to follow and who don't have the resources for Cazeneuves, Hardinges and suchlike. Regards, Paul Gough.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 22, 2017, 09:22:10 PM
Just got back from my second sojourn up north, (Asia). I have been catching up on the posts of your build and have to say I'm astonished at what you are/have achieved. I think you are certainly a master of the miniature machine tool, and obviously know these tiny Sherlines intimately, it appears you can get almost anything you need out of them. I am pretty sure you would fill a large hole in the model engineering publication offerings by doing a 'How To Build a Lombard with Micro machines' or some such. The fact that you are making something out of the ordinary and using very small equipment might be a very attractive proposition to many potential model makers who like a book on the bench to follow and who don't have the resources for Cazeneuves, Hardinges and suchlike. Regards, Paul Gough.

Thanks for the kind words, Paul! The Sherlines do have their limits in turning large diameters and taking deep cuts, but with a bit of time even moderate sized parts can be nibbled away. A friend of mine who has a company that makes some machine parts could chuck up my whole lathe and turn it sideways - his lathe is about 12 feet long.... yikes!

As it happens, though, I already have such a book (or maybe magazine serial) in process - First couple chapters are written, rest are outlined and are being filled in as I go... Stay tuned!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 22, 2017, 11:54:10 PM
Got the front bolster made. I wound up making it out of brass, had a chunk closer to the right size than I did in steel, and it was easier to round over the top like the real one (which is a wood timber, they rounded it to keep water from collecting on top and rotting it).
After milling it to correct outside dimensions,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/geuqyiccn/IMG_9159.jpg)
the top edges were notched to fit into the frames
(https://s5.postimg.cc/i7xnmtxjb/IMG_9160.jpg)
and then drilled with clearance holes to match the bolt holes already in the frames.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/m5kxc8kcn/IMG_9161.jpg)
....
and then,
....
 :wallbang: :facepalm:
realized that I had very carefully, very accurately, measured from the wrong edge for the positions of the holes! 
 :toilet_claw:
So, after turning some plugs from brass rod and soldering them into place with some Tix solder (very handy stuff, very strong, and wicks into the tightest joint wonderfully), I went back and redrilled them in the correct spots, which overlapped the first set of holes. Sigh.
Then, after a trip to the belt/disc sander to round over the top (done roughly, the originals I saw looked like they were taken down quickly with an adze or axe, and when I paint them I will rough the surface too)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ahqvhov7r/IMG_9162.jpg)
they were asssembled onto the frame rails for a test fit.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4jd27gc93/IMG_9165.jpg)
To level the frame up for the picture, the shop elves sent over their robot to do the heavy lifting...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ioiv99laf/IMG_9164.jpg)
Next up will be to make up the rest of the mounting flanges/plates, and the crossbars that make up the rest of the main frame...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 23, 2017, 12:10:44 AM
More nice progress Chris and that vintage video footage is wonderful!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: paul gough on January 23, 2017, 06:08:05 AM
Chris, Great to hear you have pre-empted my thoughts, hope you gain as much satisfaction as an author as a builder. Just a thought, if you are publishing in a US magazine, please consider the possibility of an English one also,(as well as), e.g. 'Engineering in Miniature' or 'Model Engineer' as they have a wide reach, magazines from the States seem only to be had by subscription, at least in this slice of the planet, whereas the English ones are in some newsagents or available through them, presume the same for New Zealand. 'Australian Model Engineering' is well known in the Antipodes. Best of luck with it and hope I can get hold of an analogue artefact when it comes off the press, or should I say 'ink squirter' of some sort? Regards, Paul Gough.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Nick_G on January 23, 2017, 12:12:30 PM
.
This is very impressive.  :ThumbsUp:  :)

Nick
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on January 23, 2017, 07:39:59 PM
 Damn fine work Chris, just love the fab work........ :praise2:

Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 23, 2017, 08:21:48 PM
More good work Chris. I'm impressed that you were able to bend the drawbar frames so accurately and get the correct spacing. Well done.

Jim
The technique that made it work was to do the initial bend on the second end with a slightly larger radius on the bend, measure the distance between the ends, and if too long, clamp in the vise on the middle portion right before the bend, and tap it in with a hammer. If too short, clamp it by the end and tap the middle in. The initial bend was easy to get within a 16th, so this worked out well.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 23, 2017, 10:22:35 PM
Moving along on the braces for the frame, first laid out and cut the angle braces up to the front bolster, and the cross braces just behind it:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5yntnns3r/IMG_9166.jpg)
and drilled the bolt holes into the frame for the front braces on the mill
(https://s5.postimg.cc/zf3fq2yh3/IMG_9168.jpg)
In order to support the frame and keep it from shifting/twisting in the vise, I got out an adjustable support frame that I made when building the frame for my Shay a couple years ago. It is just a couple lengths of threaded rod, some bolts, and a couple wood bars - just the thing to keep long stock supported at any height:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/flvxb4ah3/IMG_9170.jpg)
Likewise drilled for the back ends of the cross braces, using the braces themselves to locate the holes, with their front ends bolted in place.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kykrp8ydj/IMG_9171.jpg)
With both ends bolted in, drilled a 1/16" hole in the crossover for a rivet
(https://s5.postimg.cc/jxkj04hdz/IMG_9172.jpg)
which was hammered in on a small anvil
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8z99hxssn/IMG_9173.jpg)
Here is the main frame so far...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/y6k5i6vwn/IMG_9175.jpg)
Next up is the rear cross braces, which attach to the inside faces of the frame rather than the bottom, so the ends were heated, twisted, and bent over:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/hwtzfal8n/IMG_9176.jpg)
and are ready to have their mounting holes drilled...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/obt0byryf/IMG_9177.jpg)
To drill those holes, I will need to take the frames apart to clamp them securely, so while they are apart I will also do the other mounting plates for the boiler and cab. Here I am starting on the plates for the cab, which go from near the back end of the frame rails up to the wood beams that support the cab floor.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/u198w9y4n/IMG_9178.jpg)
I am drilling them in pairs, since the longer bars are easier to secure in the vise, they will be cut apart after drilling. When they are done, I will do likewise with the boiler support flanges which hold up the firebox. Those are wider, and have a different bolt pattern, will show that next time...


Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on January 23, 2017, 10:52:52 PM
More good work Chris. I'm impressed that you were able to bend the drawbar frames so accurately and get the correct spacing. Well done.

Jim
The technique that made it work was to do the initial bend on the second end with a slightly larger radius on the bend, measure the distance between the ends, and if too long, clamp in the vise on the middle portion right before the bend, and tap it in with a hammer. If too short, clamp it by the end and tap the middle in. The initial bend was easy to get within a 16th, so this worked out well.

Now that's pretty darn clever..............gonna file that one away.  :atcomputer:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 24, 2017, 12:01:48 AM
More good work Chris. I'm impressed that you were able to bend the drawbar frames so accurately and get the correct spacing. Well done.

Jim
The technique that made it work was to do the initial bend on the second end with a slightly larger radius on the bend, measure the distance between the ends, and if too long, clamp in the vise on the middle portion right before the bend, and tap it in with a hammer. If too short, clamp it by the end and tap the middle in. The initial bend was easy to get within a 16th, so this worked out well.

Now that's pretty darn clever..............gonna file that one away.  :atcomputer:

Jim

No no, not the file, the hammer!   :Jester:

This is one of those little things I picked up watching the blacksmiths at the museums as a kid. Someday gotta take the blacksmithing courses at the local welding place - already took the copper bowl raising course, fun afternoon and learned some good techniques that apply to the boiler work.
 
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 24, 2017, 12:04:55 AM
And got the boiler brackets drilled too...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xano2qm87/IMG_9179.jpg)
took them all up to the sander and rounded the corners on one end,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/aalm45ds7/IMG_9180.jpg)
and sawed them apart and sanded the rest of the corners...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4axv0hszr/IMG_9181.jpg)
The boiler brackets are the wide ones, the cab brackets are the narrow ones. Just need to make the blanks for the engine beds, and I can start drilling/tapping the flocks of holes in the sides of the frames.

I am glad I took this side trip onto the frame before tackling the drive chains, its made a nice break from the chain assembly line!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 25, 2017, 03:32:26 PM
Yesterday I got the frame holes drilled for all the side brackets
(https://s5.postimg.cc/vuuj3kcuf/IMG_9182.jpg)
and partly assembled the suspension to locate the holes for the angle braces
(https://s5.postimg.cc/48rrivthj/IMG_9183.jpg)
So all the holes are drilled in the frames now, including the back angle braces,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3knidok5j/IMG_9184.jpg)
just need to tap the rest of them and bolt on the brackets.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 25, 2017, 08:52:28 PM
Just got the last of the mounting holes in the frames tapped (lot of the little guys), and bolted on the flanges to mount the boiler and cab. Just a screw or two in each for now, had to order more 2-56 hex head screws. The engine base rails and the boiler forward support will be added later, but the holes for them are in place so I should be good to degrease and get a coat of paint on the frame rails, as well as fit the springs into the suspension. Here are a few pics of it as is:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/70fmn8hdz/IMG_9185.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5zfdy40ef/IMG_9186.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9kb9hc4xz/IMG_9187.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: samc88 on January 25, 2017, 09:30:57 PM
Been following this for a while and got to say its very impressive work! I struggle with the tracks in simple plastic model kits of tanks! Looking forward to the finished article  :)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 25, 2017, 10:04:24 PM
Been following this for a while and got to say its very impressive work! I struggle with the tracks in simple plastic model kits of tanks! Looking forward to the finished article  :)
Thanks! Glad to have you along for the ride!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 25, 2017, 10:49:06 PM
Here is the main frame with a coat of paint, going to let it cure up overnight before reassembling it to the tracks, which got some touchup after all the rework with the roller chains...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/662qc258n/IMG_9189.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3q0wy7n5z/IMG_9190.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/krtr0b213/IMG_9191.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on January 26, 2017, 02:59:28 AM
Holy cow, Chris! That last picture shows just how long this Lombard is going to be. Looks good!

One thing that has really stood out to me in the videos of the full size Lombard, is just how spindly the skies look in front. They look out of proportion and seem to washout on the turns. No wonder the steerer wanted a clear path to be able to jump!  :help:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 26, 2017, 03:23:15 AM
Holy cow, Chris! That last picture shows just how long this Lombard is going to be. Looks good!

One thing that has really stood out to me in the videos of the full size Lombard, is just how spindly the skies look in front. They look out of proportion and seem to washout on the turns. No wonder the steerer wanted a clear path to be able to jump!  :help:

Jim
When done it will be approx. 30 inches long, when the skids are on the front - with wheels mounted a little shorter (the wheels go in place of the skids on the same axle).
In some of the videos on snow, you can see how much understeer it has, the driver is having to crank the skids around quite a bit more to get it to turn sharper.

Tree.... um, Tree... Sam, its a TREE!!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 26, 2017, 11:46:54 AM
Still looking great Chris. A truly unique model and the detail is just amazing!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on January 26, 2017, 06:01:37 PM
Damn Dog, do you sleep? You just keep spitting out more and more parts.   :stickpoke: You know Santa could use a fellow like you in his work shop.  :lolb:
Just amazing work Chris.

Don  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 26, 2017, 08:57:56 PM
Damn Dog, do you sleep? You just keep spitting out more and more parts.   :stickpoke: You know Santa could use a fellow like you in his work shop.  :lolb:
Just amazing work Chris.

Don  :popcorn:

Yeah, well, actually, I used to work for Santa...

Till I hired away some of his elves to work in my own shop. Long story short, big fight, lots of Ho-Ho-ing, elf shoes flying all over, reindeer with a bloody nose (yes, it was Rudolph), very ugly scene....
 :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 26, 2017, 09:01:28 PM
Today I got the steering gear and front axle/wheels modeled up in 3D. They look a little odd with the small wheels, but the wheels were only used to transport the hauler in the off season, they were not used when hauling logs, and they need to have an axle height that matches the height of the snow skids. For the changeover, just the skids were taken off and replaced with the wheels, everything else stays in place. I still need to model the skids up.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/iziemfp53/Steering_Gear_v16.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 26, 2017, 09:19:16 PM

[/quote]

Yeah, well, actually, I used to work for Santa...

Till I hired away some of his elves to work in my own shop. Long story short, big fight, lots of Ho-Ho-ing, elf shoes flying all over, reindeer with a bloody nose (yes, it was Rudolph), very ugly scene....
 :Lol:
[/quote]

Too funny, that made my day!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 26, 2017, 10:04:34 PM


Yeah, well, actually, I used to work for Santa...

Till I hired away some of his elves to work in my own shop. Long story short, big fight, lots of Ho-Ho-ing, elf shoes flying all over, reindeer with a bloody nose (yes, it was Rudolph), very ugly scene....
 :Lol:

Too funny, that made my day!!

Bill

Sometimes the inspriation just hits... sometimes in the back of the head, but it hits...!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 26, 2017, 10:07:47 PM
Just got the frame assembled onto the tracks, including the suspension springs. Once again, the flat black makes the pictures tough, had to play with lighting and do a little editing to get them to show...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/f0glpvb47/IMG_9192.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/eoz5d3uo7/IMG_9193.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/hkc8jyyo7/IMG_9197.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on January 26, 2017, 11:13:58 PM
Straight spur gear steering.... that's purely the Armstrong system!! :ThumbsDown: :ThumbsDown:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 27, 2017, 01:18:15 AM
Straight spur gear steering.... that's purely the Armstrong system!! :ThumbsDown: :ThumbsDown:

Pete


As in needs strong arms? Sounds like you had a vehicle with it!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on January 27, 2017, 02:29:38 AM
We didn't have a vehicle with power steering until about 1964. And a lot of folks didn't, so "Armstrong Steering" was a well understood thing....

Pete

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on January 27, 2017, 02:31:52 AM
Chris-

I have been silently following along.  This is such a cool project and the build is going at such a blistering pace.  It's the Shay all over again.  Much respect.

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 27, 2017, 02:38:37 AM
We didn't have a vehicle with power steering until about 1964. And a lot of folks didn't, so "Armstrong Steering" was a well understood thing....

Pete
In 1964 my vehicle would have been a Tonka or Fisher Price, so a FingerStrong model!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 27, 2017, 02:39:25 AM
Chris-

I have been silently following along.  This is such a cool project and the build is going at such a blistering pace.  It's the Shay all over again.  Much respect.

-Bob
Thanks much Bob! Glad to have you along on the trip!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on January 27, 2017, 03:39:43 AM
We didn't have a vehicle with power steering until about 1964. And a lot of folks didn't, so "Armstrong Steering" was a well understood thing....

Pete

I remember my first car..........a 55 chev................ had a huge steering wheel. Wish I still had it..............the car............and the steering wheel!  :)

Oh yeah............the build is looking great Chris!  :Lol:

Jim

PS: Did you build that multi-drawered chest in the background of your pictures? I really like it.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 27, 2017, 01:09:43 PM
We didn't have a vehicle with power steering until about 1964. And a lot of folks didn't, so "Armstrong Steering" was a well understood thing....

Pete

I remember my first car..........a 55 chev................ had a huge steering wheel. Wish I still had it..............the car............and the steering wheel!  :)

Oh yeah............the build is looking great Chris!  :Lol:

Jim

PS: Did you build that multi-drawered chest in the background of your pictures? I really like it.
Yup, built that as a set of storage drawers at the bottom and a display wall unit on top a few years ago. It is made of Sepele, a great African wood simaler to mahogany in appearance, but denser and available in very large and wide boards, very stable with little tendency to warp.
For you die-hard gear heads, that is a material known as 'wood', a naturally occurring type of metal from 'trees'.   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 27, 2017, 03:21:01 PM
This morning I got the rest of the steering gear components modeled up in 3D, the drawbar bracket/hinge, and the skids...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/iziemfp53/Steering_Gear_v16.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 27, 2017, 03:53:35 PM
Jeez, Chris--You're a man of many talents. That is some nice 3D cad work, as well as the outstanding build.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 27, 2017, 04:31:52 PM
Jeez, Chris--You're a man of many talents. That is some nice 3D cad work, as well as the outstanding build.---Brian

Thanks Brian! All the sculpting work helps visualize parts, plus some past work (long time ago) in Lightwave doing 3d animation work has helped too. I've been doing a lot of analysis of photos from the logging museum to get part shapes/size to fill in the gaps on what they published measurement of. I am really liking the Fusion360 3D package, has a lot of power but it lets me focus on the features I need for this project (and the limited subset of it that I know so far).
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 27, 2017, 08:37:16 PM
And this afternoon I got back to the drive chains, after the nice break working on the main frame. The brain is as recharged as it gets, so back into chain production mode. These chains are the same style as the track roller chains, but the links are longer and wider, and the center rollers are narrower - they are a normally driven chain from the sprockets on the output shafts of the differential to the drive sprockets on the tracks.

First up was to drill and part off a big pile of the center rollers, that went pretty quick: drill about 1/2" in, part off 3 rollers, repeat.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/il8ceq77r/IMG_9200.jpg)
Then adjusted the stop fence on the little chop saw to the new length, and bent/cut a small set of links
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4dinq2uiv/IMG_9199.jpg)
to test the larger drill jig with:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bs7ziggef/IMG_9198.jpg)
All is looking good, sizes match the plans, so its back into producing mass quantities of link bars. I will need two chains, each about 14" in circumference. After the links are made, I'll start cutting the cross pins and rivetting everything together.
If you are just tuning in, if you look back a couple weeks on the posts you will see the bending, drilling, and rivetting jigs that I made for the track chains - these are using those same setups.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on January 27, 2017, 11:04:54 PM
Uh..............Chris...............is there any parts on this project that you get to make just one of?  :lolb:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 27, 2017, 11:34:39 PM
Uh..............Chris...............is there any parts on this project that you get to make just one of?  :lolb:

Jim


Ummmm... So far only one axle rod and one front bolster. I think that's it so far!


Total parts count so far is over 1400 pieces.


Just got done bending and cutting 45 pairs of drive chain links. That's about half of them. Sounds like a lot, but that took about half an hour.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 28, 2017, 03:58:07 PM
 :o

Guess who.

Hiya Chris. Sorry I haven't been around to give a  :stickpoke:.

Fantastic build log and model. Had a quick scan. Love the ship too!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 28, 2017, 07:23:47 PM
:o

Guess who.

Hiya Chris. Sorry I haven't been around to give a  :stickpoke: .

Fantastic build log and model. Had a quick scan. Love the ship too!

He's Back!! Hide the cookies!

Glad to have you back around again!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 28, 2017, 11:27:57 PM
Glad to have you back around again!   :cheers:

Hee hee hee. Well we'll see.  ;D

I am the thorn.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 28, 2017, 11:38:37 PM
Glad to have you back around again!   :cheers:

Hee hee hee. Well we'll see.  ;D

I am the thorn.


Paw hurt. You pull thorn! Sniff!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 29, 2017, 05:11:31 PM
The package with another batch of the 2-56 screws arrived (had run out of the short ones), so I got the rest of the screws installed in the boiler and cab brackets on the main frame:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/jueljbsp3/IMG_9201.jpg)
Continuing work on the drive chains, I got the rest of the side links bent and cut:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ky3b912pz/IMG_9202.jpg)
and started drilling the holes for the cross pins, using a simaler drilling jig as on the track chains, that positions 3 links at a time. After one 45 minute session, got to this point:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9a99ehdl3/IMG_9203.jpg)
Looks like four or five more sessions and they will all be drilled, ready to make the cross pins...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 29, 2017, 10:03:41 PM
And a quick double-check that all the sizes are good, and an inspiration to myself to get them done, assembled the first length of the drive chain...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/b75zj2493/IMG_9206.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 30, 2017, 12:41:16 AM
Still following along Chris. Things are looking great!!  :popcorn:

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 30, 2017, 12:53:42 AM
Still following along Chris. Things are looking great!!  :popcorn:

Because of Chris? Or his elves? One begins to wonder who's doing the work.  :thinking:
Mint chocolate chip cookies are a powerful bribe.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 30, 2017, 01:03:28 AM
Still following along Chris. Things are looking great!!  :popcorn:

Because of Chris? Or his elves? One begins to wonder who's doing the work.  :thinking:
Mint chocolate chip cookies are a powerful bribe.
They sure are! NASA put a trail of them into the capsule to get the astronauts in...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 30, 2017, 01:05:40 AM
Still following along Chris. Things are looking great!!  :popcorn:

Bill
Thanks Bill! Once the repetative work on the chains is done, I can start on the sprockets and gears, good thing no repetitive work there... Hey... Wait...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 30, 2017, 01:09:51 AM
Still following along Chris. Things are looking great!!  :popcorn:

Bill
Thanks Bill! Once the repetative work on the chains is done, I can start on the sprockets and gears, good thing no repetitive work there... Hey... Wait...

Yeah. You keep saying 'I' but you mean 'they'.  ;D
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 30, 2017, 01:39:29 AM
Still following along Chris. Things are looking great!!  :popcorn:

Bill
Thanks Bill! Once the repetative work on the chains is done, I can start on the sprockets and gears, good thing no repetitive work there... Hey... Wait...

Yeah. You keep saying 'I' but you mean 'they'.  ;D
'They' have taken me over, we are us now!

And 'We' just made 'me' get out another handful of mint chocolate chip cookies.... yum!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 30, 2017, 04:21:43 PM
Progressing forward on the drive chains, got the first half of one done...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/z62n8jb47/IMG_9207.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on January 30, 2017, 05:01:51 PM
Hi Chris,
 Think the elves need to go on a diet! Too many cookies & progress slows!

Keep them lean & mean!  :Lol:

Looking Good!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 30, 2017, 06:40:21 PM
Hi Chris,
 Think the elves need to go on a diet! Too many cookies & progress slows!

Keep them lean & mean!  :Lol:

Looking Good!

Cheers Kerrin
Sure. YOU deal with a hungry pack of annoyed shop elves! That is how they turn back in to shop gnomes and start hiding your tools! 
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on January 30, 2017, 06:41:55 PM
And one drive chain done! I did not rivet in the final pin, in case I need to add a link or two once the sprockets are in place. It should be the right number now, but thats when Murphy comes a callin'...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/jlv9i00zr/IMG_9208.jpg)
One more drive chain to go...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: GailinNM on January 30, 2017, 07:58:19 PM
Beautiful Chris.  If I tried to do that it would be Groundhog day 2018 before I got one done.
Gail in NM
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on January 31, 2017, 07:04:24 AM

[/quote]
Sure. YOU deal with a hungry pack of annoyed shop elves! That is how they turn back in to shop gnomes and start hiding your tools!
[/quote]

Hahahahhahahahahahahahahha!

Chain looks good!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 01, 2017, 04:16:05 PM
And both chains are done!   :whoohoo:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/68nzl0npj/IMG_9210.jpg)
I took them up to the belt sander to ease the sharp corners on the links, looks a little better, and also cured a couple of sticky spots.

Now back to the lathe, started turning down the blank for the small end drive sprockets...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/vsq9rg93b/IMG_9211.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 01, 2017, 10:14:24 PM
After shaping the hub side of the smaller sprockets and parting them off, turned them around in the chuck to face them to thickness and taper the second side to match the first, so that the chains will self center.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/vmlrfuepz/IMG_9212.jpg)
and then over to the rotary table on the mill to plunge cut the bottom arc of each tooth,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/pmy0c6txj/IMG_9213.jpg)
and then offset the table 20 degrees and .475" to cut the shoulders on one side,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kct1kw9on/IMG_9214.jpg)
and then the same angle/distance the other side of zero to cut the other side of the shoulders
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5i4g6q03r/IMG_9215.jpg)
leaving the finished sprockets (just needed a little filing to remove the burs on some of the edges).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/44ctbf0uf/IMG_9216.jpg)
Next up are the back sprockets, which are 20 teeth each. For those, I think I am going to start with some flat bar for the sprocket disc, and silver solder on a hub, rather than starting with a big chunk of 2-1/4" bar stock and turn most of it away. Either way will work, this way gets me more silver soldering practice.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 01, 2017, 10:30:03 PM
 :ThumbsUp:

When you said you tapered both sides...shallow? It's hard for me to see or know what you did.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 01, 2017, 10:40:43 PM
:ThumbsUp:

When you said you tapered both sides...shallow? It's hard for me to see or know what you did.
Yeah, does not show up that much. Starting a little below the base of the teeth, where the bottom of the chain side rails land, it tapers about 25 or 30 thou on each side to the tips of the teeth, to reduce the tendancy for the teeth to grab the side rails as they come around. I'm sure that there is some rule of thumb out there, but I dont know it, so I eyeballed these and came up with a taper that seems to work. I turned in the taper on the lathe when I made the blanks, before I cut the teeth, which made it easier to sight down the edges and see if they were balanced. The real test will be when the big sprockets are done, and I can spin everything round.

Commercially available chains have gotten SO standardized these days to just a few sizes for the smaller ones, that everyone just seems to use the same design, and there is little discussion about how they got there, unlike gear teeth which have lots of info out there.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on February 01, 2017, 11:14:26 PM
Lots of progress Chris! Regarding the shop elves ( even if they are bad hackers) as the Borg say..."Resistance is futile"  :lolb:

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on February 01, 2017, 11:28:33 PM
You sure the elves are eating cookies and aren't on crack  :lolb: :lolb:

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 02, 2017, 02:07:07 AM
You sure the elves are eating cookies and aren't on crack  :lolb: :lolb:

Cletus


No, thats the plumber's elves, with little butt cracks showing!   :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 02, 2017, 02:08:16 AM
Lots of progress Chris! Regarding the shop elves ( even if they are bad hackers) as the Borg say..."Resistance is futile"  :lolb:

Bill
Huh. That's not the formula for resistance that I learned in school....
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 02, 2017, 08:14:36 PM
I got a good start on the rear drive sprockets today - started by cutting out some 303 stainless plate stock and drilling/boring a center hole for the hub:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4mlqwhukn/IMG_9217.jpg)
The center hole in the plates are a little under the size of the outside of the hub, so I turned a shoulder on some 1/2" bar stock for the plates to sit against. Here is one of the plates with the hub ready to silver solder in place. To make sure the hub didn't shift during soldering, I staked the plate in a couple places with a center punch right next to the hub.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/51x0pighz/IMG_9219.jpg)
After soldering, started turning down the plate to size.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7xa3wdkhz/IMG_9220.jpg)
and then turned in the recessed areas for the spokes and the teeth. Like the smaller sprockets, the tooth area is tapered out to the edge. Since I made the hub long enough to go through and come out the other side of the plate, I could turn it around and shape the other side as well.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4rpi661vr/IMG_9221.jpg)
The hub will be trimmed back on the one side as a final step later, after the teeth have been cut and tested with the chain. Next time, on to the rotary table on the mill to cut the teeth...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 02, 2017, 10:32:41 PM
Do you mean the hub goes through the plate?

At first I was thinking the hub was on one side and then I was wondering how you were holding onto the plate when the hub was on the other side.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 03, 2017, 01:05:43 AM
Do you mean the hub goes through the plate?

At first I was thinking the hub was on one side and then I was wondering how you were holding onto the plate when the hub was on the other side.
Yup, I made the narrow side of the hub long enough to protrude .25 out the other side so I can hold it from both sides in the lathe. I'll turn most of that off as the last operation, leaving the full hub on one side only. The axle is .250, the hole in the plate and the narrow end of the hub are .400.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on February 03, 2017, 11:25:20 AM
Moving right along Chris. You are giving that Sherline equipment a workout ... again!

Tom
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 03, 2017, 04:33:47 PM
Moving right along Chris. You are giving that Sherline equipment a workout ... again!

Tom

I keep excercising it, but its muscles aren't any bigger!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 03, 2017, 04:42:02 PM
This morning I got the large drive sprockets set up on the rotary table to cut the teeth. Started by drilling the bottom arcs with a small drill, then plunge cutting with an end mill. This left a nice cut just in the right place, where drilling with the same size twist drill would have been tricky due to the taper on that portion of the disc making it want to drift outwards a touch, even with spot drilling first.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/hs5ugcdtz/IMG_9223.jpg)
Then offset the rotary table 10 degrees, and moved the table in .475", which worked out to give the teeth the proper slope, cutting first on one side
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ytyoifsp3/IMG_9224.jpg)
then offsetting the angle and table the opposite direction to cut the other side,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/jza349j47/IMG_9225.jpg)
before giving it a quick test with the chain before removing the sprocket from the chuck to debur it:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qe940xptz/IMG_9226.jpg)
One of the sprockets needed the shoulder below the teeth taken back another 10 thou, the rest looks good. Here is one sprocket/chain set together:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/hls5d94p3/IMG_9228.jpg)
and test fit on the track axle - little hard to get a good photo of it with the frame in the way.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9f05loemf/IMG_9227.jpg)
So, with teeth cut on both sprocket sets, next time I'll start cutting the spokes in the large sprockets, and drill/tap for the grub screws to hold them to the axles.

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on February 03, 2017, 05:23:26 PM
Sweet Chris!!  Those look really nice!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 03, 2017, 10:52:33 PM
Seems like I saw all this before. Oh yeah. The smaller sprockets.  :Lol:

Well it was worth seeing again.  ;D
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 03, 2017, 11:19:00 PM
Seems like I saw all this before. Oh yeah. The smaller sprockets.  :Lol:

Well it was worth seeing again.  ;D


Yeah, deja vu all over again, just bigger. The next step will look familiar too, cutting spokes just like on the track sprockets.


It will get more exciting next week, when I start the steering gear assembly for the front of the frame.


Enough cutting for one day, time to go watch some Road Runner cartoons and relax!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 04, 2017, 03:47:30 AM
That is really interesting to see those sprockets being milled, Chris. I've read about it, but I think I'm going to have to mill one myself sometime in order to really understand the process.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 04, 2017, 01:41:34 PM
That is really interesting to see those sprockets being milled, Chris. I've read about it, but I think I'm going to have to mill one myself sometime in order to really understand the process.

Jim


So when do you start your Lombard model?   :stickpoke:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 04, 2017, 03:01:47 PM
That is really interesting to see those sprockets being milled, Chris. I've read about it, but I think I'm going to have to mill one myself sometime in order to really understand the process.

Jim


So when do you start your Lombard model?   :stickpoke:

Well, so far, I've noticed that in the time I build a single part............you make a whole drive chain!  :shrug: I may need to clone your elves...........or go CNC!  ;)

Here's one of your projects I'd like to build sometime: http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/showthread.php?t=22713 I love the action and sound it has.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on February 04, 2017, 05:57:07 PM
So very cool Chris!  Continuing to follow along with your elf-assisted build  ;) :popcorn:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 04, 2017, 08:11:33 PM
That is really interesting to see those sprockets being milled, Chris. I've read about it, but I think I'm going to have to mill one myself sometime in order to really understand the process.

Jim


So when do you start your Lombard model?   :stickpoke:

Well, so far, I've noticed that in the time I build a single part............you make a whole drive chain!  :shrug: I may need to clone your elves...........or go CNC!  ;)

Here's one of your projects I'd like to build sometime: http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/showthread.php?t=22713 (http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/showthread.php?t=22713) I love the action and sound it has.

Jim
Just imagine how much my elves would accomplish with cnc!


That twin beam engine was a lot of fun to build, I think it is the slowest runner I have done, runs so slow that the flywheel is not needed.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 04, 2017, 08:12:33 PM
So very cool Chris!  Continuing to follow along with your elf-assisted build  ;) :popcorn:
Kim


Don't compliment them too much, or their little hats won't fit anymore!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 04, 2017, 10:27:03 PM
On to cutting the spokes for the drive sprockets. Mounted the sprocket on the rotary table, and drilled 1/4" holes around the hub:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/u9h3h8ydj/IMG_9229.jpg)
Then moved the table over, and rotated 30 degrees to get to the end of the spoke on one side, and drilled 1/8" holes there
(https://s5.postimg.cc/nx1y7evbb/IMG_9230.jpg)
followed by corresponding holes on the other side of the spokes (if you squint real hard you can see where the spokes will be...)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/vr2jst347/IMG_9231.jpg)
and then switched to a 1/8" end mill, and cut the arcs between the spokes using a series of shallow cuts while turning the rotary table
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ertldjrwn/IMG_9232.jpg)
Then back to cut the first sides of the spoke by moving the table left/right
(https://s5.postimg.cc/de1yi8snb/IMG_9233.jpg)
followed by cutting the opposite sides of the spokes
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ncmx4q22v/IMG_9234.jpg)
Here is the first sprocket, ready for some cleanup filing on the edges of the openings:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bosva6cxz/IMG_9236.jpg)
One more sprocket to cut, then final stage will be to drill/tap the screw holes for holding them to the axle shaft....
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 05, 2017, 04:59:06 PM
Almost done on the drive sprockets - got the holes for the mount screws drilled/tapped in the hubs,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/edwurox6v/IMG_9237.jpg)
then smoothed off the burs from milling the spokes with a rotary tool, and then it was time to trim back the hubs on the large sprockets. In order to allow gripping the sprockets in the lathe from either side, I had left the hub long where it came through the sprocket. As you can see, one side is a smaller diamter - that left the shoulder for the hub to res against while silver soldering it up.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dpo08qyh3/IMG_9238.jpg)
So after hacksawing off the bulk of the narrow side, the hub was faced back on the lathe, leaving just a slight boss sticking up.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/hajvrz30n/IMG_9239.jpg)
And the finished parts, ready for paint:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/lxpxtqqdj/IMG_9240.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on February 05, 2017, 05:36:25 PM
Well there has to be Elfs in that shop somewhere the way you been spitting out parts!  :lolb: Still looking good and damn good work Dog..... :praise2:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 05, 2017, 05:52:49 PM
Well there has to be Elfs in that shop somewhere the way you been spitting out parts!  :lolb: Still looking good and damn good work Dog..... :praise2:

Thanks Don!

I heard the shop elves talking about coming down to visit you this spring, and take some gator wrestling lessons. They are pretty small, so maybe crawfish wrestling would be better...!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 05, 2017, 09:43:06 PM
so maybe crawfish wrestling would be better...!

crawdads in my old neck of the woods. good fishing bait.
crayfish in some other places

crawfish in New York? What are they in Louisiana?

And what do they have to do with engines?  :thinking:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 05, 2017, 09:49:30 PM
so maybe crawfish wrestling would be better...!

crawdads in my old neck of the woods. good fishing bait.
crayfish in some other places

crawfish in New York? What are they in Louisiana?

And what do they have to do with engines?  :thinking:
Potato, patahto, patotoe, whatever!  The people next door when I grew up parked their car in the 'gararge'. Accents/names can be a funny thing. We had an exchange student from Mexico City back in high school, spoke perfect English. There was one teacher from West Virginia, with a slight (we thought, anyway) southern accent. The teacher and the exchange student had a very hard time understanding each other, the rest of us had to translate since we thought they both spoke English just fine!
Though I would guess our neighbors across the pond(s) would say we speak American well, but English terribly!!

Oh, and something about engines, um, lets see, I started milling down the engine bed blocks, pictures on that tomorrow...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on February 05, 2017, 11:02:21 PM
i.e., soda, pop, or Coke, just depends on the zip code   :Doh:. I remember at CF three years ago, Steamer didn't understand a thing I ordered for dinner, seemed to eat it fine though  :lolb:. Oh yeah, build, er, looking great  :cheers: (seriously)

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Johnmcc69 on February 06, 2017, 02:24:29 AM
Great work Chris. All these little details you add to it really make it "Pop". No wonder the shop elves are working so hard on this, it's not like you'll be able to drive it...
  :naughty:
 Hi Ho...Hi Ho...

 JOhN
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 06, 2017, 02:35:46 AM
Great work Chris. All these little details you add to it really make it "Pop". No wonder the shop elves are working so hard on this, it's not like you'll be able to drive it...
  :naughty:
 Hi Ho...Hi Ho...

 JOhN


That's a good point, the little .... um, ... machinists... will drive it away on me! Better build in a lock!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 06, 2017, 04:33:53 PM
A slight diversion on the way to starting on the steering gear - decided to finish up the engine beds, which I had rough cut down from a bigger bar a while back. Using  fly cutter, I smoothed off the cut edge and took it close to dimension, then flipped it over and took the rest off the other side to get rid of the bend in the bar (caused when cutting down a wider rolled bar, the internal stresses at the sides cause it to bow slightly when cut lengthwise).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3xuzdyj9j/IMG_9241.jpg)
The moved the table in so that it left a .125 lip, and took the bar down the rest of the way. The lip will wrap around the top of the main frame rails, and the recess sits against the side of the rails.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/s2vovo3k7/IMG_9242.jpg)
After lots of cranking on a number of shallow passes, the recess was done, and the mounting bolt holes were drilled/tapped:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/z7di4patj/IMG_9243.jpg)
Here is the first engine bed bolted in place
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gt2z0pyiv/IMG_9244.jpg)
and both beds, with the drive chain/sprocket held about where they will go. The differential frame bolts to the bottom of the engine beds, and the crankshaft bearings and cylinders bolt to the top of the beds.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dnidaifwn/IMG_9247.jpg)
Here is the blank that will get milled into a shallow T-shape to form the cross bar that goes across just behind the cylinders. Also still need to make a set of brackets that project out from the sides to hold the crosshead rail.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9sez7xwqv/IMG_9249.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on February 06, 2017, 05:24:02 PM
The frame is really starting to take shape now too Chris. Loving it!!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 06, 2017, 07:42:59 PM
For the crossbar between the engine beds, I started with a piece of 3/8" square bar and took some off both sides to make a 1/4x3/8 bar (did not have that size already). Taking some off both sides evened out the bend that the bar took when milling the first side.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bbadcx3bb/IMG_9251.jpg)
then notched one side
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wz3x13t3b/IMG_9252.jpg)
and then the other to form the T shape.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5d15gf9qf/IMG_9253.jpg)
and trimmed the bar to length, rounded over the tip of the vertical bar, and drilled mount holes at the ends.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3ns28cu13/IMG_9255.jpg)
Next up is to make the angle brackets that come off the side of the engine beds, to hold up the crosshead bar. These brackets will be inset and silver soldered onto the beds. First step was to mill in the recessed sides.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4rc6kbeo7/IMG_9260.jpg)
The portion at the bottom will become the top surface of the bracket. Here is a picture of the 3D model to show where I am going with this:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4rc6kbeo7/IMG_9260.jpg)




Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: cmitcham on February 06, 2017, 10:42:29 PM
chris, you often speak of removing some from one side, some from the other to even out the bend. the bend must not be there while you mill the second side, so how quick do you have to be? or are you holding the bend at bay with the vise?

thanks!
calvin.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 06, 2017, 11:23:34 PM
chris, you often speak of removing some from one side, some from the other to even out the bend. the bend must not be there while you mill the second side, so how quick do you have to be? or are you holding the bend at bay with the vise?

thanks!
calvin.
In the case of this bar, the bend was less than a millimeter, I've had some brass bar curve at least a 1/16th to 1/8" over 6 inches.

Speed does not come into it, the metal is flexing as you cut it. When they manufacture bar stock by rolling, it introduces stresses into the metal, and if you take a lengthwise cut it will flex somewhat. Over a short length, it is negligable, but over a 4 or 5 inch cut you can see it if you hold a straightedge up to it. When cutting lengthwise on a bar with a hacksaw or recip saw, with the bar held in the bench vise, you can watch the kerf at the top open up as you go farther into the metal.  Now, some alloys/products are stress relieved when manufactured, but most brass and some steels are not, and will show this bend.

For brass, it can be avoided by putting the bar stock in the oven at 500-F for an hour (after degreasing first!) and letting it cool. For steels, it all depends on the alloys, for most the process is more complicated.

The easiest way to deal with it for steel is to take part of the depth off one side, flip it over, take more off other side, and come back and finish on the first side to the desired thickness.

I am not a metalurgist, and dont know all the ins and outs of crystal/grain structure and the like, but have learned to deal with the effect. When turning on a lathe, you are taking the same amount off all sides, so it never shows up, but if you split a bar down the middle, or take some off one side, it can occur. I think it is mainly an effect on bars that were rolled to size, not on cast metal.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 06, 2017, 11:32:45 PM
Well, Photobucket appears to be in the process of hacking up a hairball and wont let me in to upload, so am falling back to PostImage for these. At least it seems to be serving up previously uploaded pictures.

Got more done on the little brackets for the side of the engine beds. After milling the sides to form the recessed areas, I turned them sideways and notched them to give room for a small screw to hold them in place while silver soldering. The screws will be milled off flush after soldering.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4rgry241z/IMG_9261.jpg)
Then, drilled for the screws,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/y7we0hafb/IMG_9262.jpg)
The parts ready to be sawn apart:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/w4lystamf/IMG_9263.jpg)
and after sawing,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7cmclktfr/IMG_9264.jpg)
At this point, each was held in the corner of the mill vise and both edges taken down in the one session, so that the two edges would be perpendicular to each other:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xyytajxmv/IMG_9265.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/ays5y7zt3/IMG_9266.jpg)
One of the brackets held up where it will go.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6eakx15hj/IMG_9267.jpg)
Next steps are to mill notches in the sides of the engine bed so the brackets will sit in with the vertical flange flush, and drill the holes to hold them for soldering...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on February 07, 2017, 01:00:58 AM
I think this thing is so cool Chris.  I hope that you can make it to Cabin Fever one year with it and the Shay.  I would just love to see them both as I'm sure others would too.

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 07, 2017, 01:18:58 AM
I think this thing is so cool Chris.  I hope that you can make it to Cabin Fever one year with it and the Shay.  I would just love to see them both as I'm sure others would too.

-Bob


Thanks Bob! I was there (no models with me though) the year before I finished the Shay, had a great time there plus at some of the railroad museums. I am hoping to make it back there again with the models.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 07, 2017, 11:21:03 AM
I think this thing is so cool Chris.  I hope that you can make it to Cabin Fever one year with it and the Shay.  I would just love to see them both as I'm sure others would too.
-Bob
Thanks Bob! I was there (no models with me though) the year before I finished the Shay, had a great time there plus at some of the railroad museums. I am hoping to make it back there again with the models.

That would be great. Leave the elves at home (they may skip out on you) and bring cookies. I would sure love to see your models and it'd be great to meet in person.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 07, 2017, 05:20:43 PM
I think this thing is so cool Chris.  I hope that you can make it to Cabin Fever one year with it and the Shay.  I would just love to see them both as I'm sure others would too.
-Bob
Thanks Bob! I was there (no models with me though) the year before I finished the Shay, had a great time there plus at some of the railroad museums. I am hoping to make it back there again with the models.
That would be great. Leave the elves at home (they may skip out on you) and bring cookies. I would sure love to see your models and it'd be great to meet in person.

I figured I'd drop them off at your house for that weekend, you know what they can be like if left all alone!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 07, 2017, 05:25:46 PM
This morning I got the slots milled for the side brackets on the engine beds. The slots are 1/4" wide, so used a 3/16" end mill, cut across and then smoothed up the edges and took them out to a nice slide fit.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6pwmnjbbb/IMG_9271.jpg)
Here are the first two brackets test fit in place
(https://s5.postimg.cc/vxc41j3t3/IMG_9272.jpg)
Then used the holes in the brackets to mark out and spot for the bolt holes to hold them in place during silver soldering
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wbdg14nwn/IMG_9273.jpg)
A couple shots of the part test fit on the main rails. All looks good, so next up will be to silver solder the brackets in place, and come back and mill off the screw heads. The top cross brace only gets bolted on. More holes will get drilled/tapped in the bed rails later on as the engine itself gets constructed.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4paogg4jr/IMG_9275.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/6v4zay807/IMG_9276.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 07, 2017, 05:26:44 PM
That was scary - got 403 errors trying to make that last post. Hope the forum gremlins are not back again!   :killcomputer:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Roger B on February 08, 2017, 09:30:08 AM
Just catching up with this build again. Magnificent work on the chains and frames  :praise2:  :praise2: I see you are already thinking about the next project  :)  :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 08, 2017, 01:14:12 PM
Just catching up with this build again. Magnificent work on the chains and frames  :praise2: :praise2: I see you are already thinking about the next project  :) :wine1:

Thanks Roger!

And always at least one project on the future drawing board! Next time the weather is a bit better I want to take a run over to the Marion steam shovel that I found out about near here - can't get too close to it, but it looks impressive in the pics I've seen posted about it.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 08, 2017, 09:58:04 PM
I was going to get the brackets silver soldered onto the engine beds today, but I decided to skip to the start of the steering gear assembly instead. To paraphrase (badly) the old song, It's my workshop and I'll procrastinate if I want to!

Anyway, the steering mechanism has two 14 tooth gears, one 45 tooth, and one toothed quadrant arm that if a full circle would be 96 tooth. For my model they are all cut with a set of module 0.7 gear cutters. I started with the two small ones, turned a 1/2" steel bar down to .441", slotted the bar where the two gears will be cut off so I knew how far in to cut the teeth, and set up the rotary table vertically on the mill. The cutter was centered on the workpiece by eye - the tool marks from facing the end made it easy to see the center. With the cutter set to just touch the side of the bar, I moved the table in another .0594, the depth of the teeth.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rttzbdibr/IMG_9277.jpg)
With the #2 cutter (14 to 16 teeth range) in the arbor, I started cutting the teeth. For the Sherline rotary table, the table moves 5 degrees per full revolution, and there are 50 tick marks on the wheel. So, for these gears, it works out to 5 full turns and 7.142 ticks per tooth. I like to pre-calculate all the moves, and follow a list of them rather than trying to figure it out on the fly - a little spreadsheet math worked it out to be a sequence of 5 full turns from the last tooth, then stopping at the ticks for 0, 7.1, 14.3, 21.4, 35.7, 42.9 and back around again for the rest of the teeth.
Here are the first few teeth cut,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8d99oun7r/IMG_9278.jpg)
and on around to finish off the rest
(https://s5.postimg.cc/syo1gr4sn/IMG_9279.jpg)
Then moved the chuck back over to the lathe to drill the center hole (forgot to do that when setting up the blank) and part off the gears:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4xh5fapzb/IMG_9283.jpg)
Then it was time to make the larger 45 tooth gear. I turned a bar to the outside diameter of the gear, 1.295", drilled the center hole (remembered this time) and gave the end a little profiling since one surface will be visible - this gear sits horizontally above the frame rails.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ljypodix3/IMG_9282.jpg)
and then like with the smaller gears, went around cutting the teeth
(https://s5.postimg.cc/f8y3lp72f/IMG_9285.jpg)
For this gear, the sequence was much simpler since it is an even 8 degrees per tooth, so the sequence was once around to 0, 30, 10, 40, 20 ticks
(https://s5.postimg.cc/abkj0l53b/IMG_9286.jpg)
Once it was done, parted off on the lathe, and these three are done:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6gh4y0lxj/IMG_9287.jpg)
Next up will be to make the quadrant gear, which sits at the bottom of the gear train and turns the front axle assembly. Here is what it will all look like:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/iziemfp53/Steering_Gear_v16.jpg)

The part that I have not decided how to make yet is the steering wheel, have to search out how others have done them and see what method seems best for this one. The spokes and rim are all round, which makes it tricky. Suggestions anyone?

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on February 08, 2017, 10:44:51 PM
Nice looking gears Chris! The front end stearing gear will add a lot to the model too!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 08, 2017, 10:58:03 PM
Suggestions anyone?

Yes.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 08, 2017, 11:04:37 PM
Suggestions anyone?

Yes.


 :facepalm2:


Thanks Zee.


Oh, you better check behind the couch, one of your shop elves got sick...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 08, 2017, 11:21:15 PM
Great work. Cutting gears is such a rewarding experience---But I still find myself holding my breath when I make that final rotation of the rotary table, and see that I'm cutting air, not metal.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 09, 2017, 12:44:37 AM
Suggestions anyone?
Yes.
:facepalm2:
Thanks Zee.
Oh, you better check behind the couch, one of your shop elves got sick...

Is okay. I'm used to puke-age.

@Brian...Nice tip. I don't know that I would've thought to go one more and see that it's accurate. Thanks. Could eye-ball the last one but this would be proof.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 09, 2017, 02:05:58 AM
Suggestions anyone?
Yes.
:facepalm2:
Thanks Zee.
Oh, you better check behind the couch, one of your shop elves got sick...

Is okay. I'm used to puke-age.

@Brian...Nice tip. I don't know that I would've thought to go one more and see that it's accurate. Thanks. Could eye-ball the last one but this would be proof.


But then Murphy's Law would kick in, mess up that last turn, and ruin the good first cut!


I do like using the 4 jaw chuck since it has the groove to lock it to the table, have had the 3 jaw turn a little during gear cutting since it doesn't have the groove around the base.

The real fun will be doing all the bevel gears for the differential, 2 large and 4 small ones.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 09, 2017, 03:03:39 AM

I do like using the 4 jaw chuck since it has the groove to lock it to the table, have had the 3 jaw turn a little during gear cutting since it doesn't have the groove around the base.

The real fun will be doing all the bevel gears for the differential, 2 large and 4 small ones.

Now there's a tip that I'll file away. That never occurred to me.   :Doh:

The gears look good. Thanks for documenting the process. That's a skill that's still out there for me to learn.

Jim

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 09, 2017, 08:32:16 PM
A bunch more done today on the steering gear, got started on the quadrant arm. It is the lever arm that has a 1/4 of a gear out at the end, and turns the front axle assembly. It will have a short axle section out the top, and have a fitting to hold the axle on the bottom. Rather than try and carve it out of a larger block, I am making it from several pieces. The first two are the vertical axle and the horizontal arm. The arm starts out as a 1.6" square piece of 3/16" thick bar stock, drilled and bored to take the axle.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6s7s29h53/IMG_9288.jpg)
The rough shape of the finished quadrant was drawn on the bar stock so you can see where this is going (and so I could make sure I was drilling in the right place!).  Then a length of 1/2" round bar was turned down at one end to fit the hole, and it was ready for silver soldering together.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qbcdbmfwn/IMG_9289.jpg)
While I had the torch set up outside (and it is COLD out there today), I also soldered up the angle brackets on the engine beds, and then milled off the heads of the screws used to hold them in place, as well as trueing up the top surface to the top of the engine beds.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4q7ao0j5z/IMG_9290.jpg)
Back on the quadrant, here it is also soldered up and ready for shaping.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6w1liimmf/IMG_9291.jpg)
The corner was sawn off so that it will clear the lathe bed.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9reopdqmf/IMG_9292.jpg)
With it chucked up in the 4-jaw on the lathe, one end of the axle was smoothed down, and one face of the arm trued up as well.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/riqb3u613/IMG_9293.jpg)
It needed a slow speed and light cuts, being out of balance and an interrupted cut. Next the rim was taken down to finished diameter:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4ijnri87b/IMG_9294.jpg)
and the face shaped with a wider rim and narrower inside that.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/59cdxaakn/IMG_9295.jpg)
Then, turned it around in the chuck, and recentered it using a dial indicator mounted to the cross slide
(https://s5.postimg.cc/l8v1gu6mf/IMG_9296.jpg)
The axle was used to do the centering, and also did a quick check on the rim of the arm to make sure that was running true as well.
Then, trued off that face and shaped it like the first:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xc4yi572f/IMG_9297.jpg)
Then, got out the indicator again, rechucked it with the thicker side of the axle in the chuck so it would be as rigid as possible, and moved out so that there would be clearance from the rim to the chuck for the gear cutter.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/oie211k3r/IMG_9298.jpg)
Then back over to the mill to cut the gear teeth.
This is one place where the stock Sherline does not have enough travel on the mill table - with the rotary table clamped to the table, there is not enough reach to do larger gears, so it is necessary to get out my trusty old table extension, a very high tech piece of thick plywood with rows of holes drilled in it! This lets me move the rotary table farther out to give room for the gear and cutter. The same setup has done gears for several clocks as well as the rim gear for the Corliss build.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3mrrpsnwn/IMG_9299.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/iwrmwzjev/IMG_9300.jpg)
Then, just like the smaller gears, its cuttin' time! With the number 7 cutter, for 55 to 134 tooth gears, mounted on the arbor, the cutter was centered on the quadrant axle, and set for the proper depth of cut (.0594"). This gear is a section of a 96 tooth gear, so it is just 3.75 degrees per tooth. On the Sherline table, that is 37.5 ticks on the handwheel, so it worked out to a sequence of cuts at handwheel settings of 0, 37.5, 25, 12.5, and back around again. Here it is with the first few teeth cut,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/un5kedc7b/IMG_9301.jpg)
and all cut
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xva1reyh3/IMG_9302.jpg)
and big relief time, check with the small spur gear and it meshes nicely!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/f484h93wn/IMG_9303.jpg)
Next up will be to shape the sides of the quadrant, need to figure out a setup to cut reverse arcs into the sides, and round off the base around the axle. Then a tapered support arm goes across the arm on the bottom side..
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 09, 2017, 10:12:14 PM
Worked out the curves on the sides of the quadrant gear. By offsetting the chuck on the rotary table, there was enough still on the table to grab securely with the angle clamps. It took a little trial and error to get the alignment and distance figured out, but it did not take too long.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/f5i2ao5qf/IMG_9304.jpg)
Then it was just a matter of making a series of shallow cuts while cranking the rotary table back and forth, moving the mill table out a bit each pass.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5yzrne0hz/IMG_9305.jpg)
Once the first side was done, I drew a line on the rotary table surface around the rim of the chuck, loosened up the clamps, and rotated the chuck 90 degrees, to get the second edge in position.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dt0d8s8av/IMG_9306.jpg)
and cut that arc as well.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6r710bu2v/IMG_9307.jpg)
Next time, I'll center the chuck on the table again, switch to a wider mill cutter so I can get close to the axle, and round the edge around the axle.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 10, 2017, 04:15:13 AM
Pretty darn impressive Chris. That's a lot of things to take into account to have it all work out. Well done.

Just to clarify my thinking. You mentioned that this gear (1/4 section) was based on a 96 tooth gear, requiring 3.75 degrees rotation for each tooth. OK, I'm assuming that would be for that particular radius of the 1/4 gear, so the tooth spacing came out right. If the quadrant had been a larger radius, would you have had to figure a larger tooth gear and thus had a smaller rotation of the RT for each tooth.......in order to have the tooth spacing work out correctly? Hope that makes sense.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on February 10, 2017, 07:57:32 AM
Nice Chris!

Cheers  Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Roger B on February 10, 2017, 10:31:12 AM
I do like that 4 jaw chuck with the clamping groove  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 10, 2017, 01:48:51 PM
Pretty darn impressive Chris. That's a lot of things to take into account to have it all work out. Well done.

Just to clarify my thinking. You mentioned that this gear (1/4 section) was based on a 96 tooth gear, requiring 3.75 degrees rotation for each tooth. OK, I'm assuming that would be for that particular radius of the 1/4 gear, so the tooth spacing came out right. If the quadrant had been a larger radius, would you have had to figure a larger tooth gear and thus had a smaller rotation of the RT for each tooth.......in order to have the tooth spacing work out correctly? Hope that makes sense.

Jim
If I am thinking of what you are thinking correctly about my thinking, then yes!
For a given gear cutter module (or DP) size, there is a specific tooth size and spacing. So, if you want a certain number of teeth you can calculate the diameter of the gear. Likewise, if you want a given diameter, you can calculate the number of teeth it would need. In my case, I counted the number of teeth in the gears on the real one from photos, ran the math, and got lucky that I have a cutter set that works. Otherwise I would have had to redo the number of teeth on all the gears, or buy another cutter set.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 10, 2017, 01:53:35 PM
I do like that 4 jaw chuck with the clamping groove  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
I just wish they had changed two things.
1, made the clamp so that it would fit square on the table without hitting the front mount screws on the vertical holder base.
2, made the t slots on the rotary table the same depth as the ones on the mill table. The rotab slots are farther from the surface, so the chuck to table adapter won't fit on the rotary table.
But, it still can be made to work!
Oh, and item 3, put a slot around the 3 jaw chuck too!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 10, 2017, 03:03:23 PM
Pretty darn impressive Chris. That's a lot of things to take into account to have it all work out. Well done.

Just to clarify my thinking. You mentioned that this gear (1/4 section) was based on a 96 tooth gear, requiring 3.75 degrees rotation for each tooth. OK, I'm assuming that would be for that particular radius of the 1/4 gear, so the tooth spacing came out right. If the quadrant had been a larger radius, would you have had to figure a larger tooth gear and thus had a smaller rotation of the RT for each tooth.......in order to have the tooth spacing work out correctly? Hope that makes sense.

Jim

If I am thinking of what you are thinking correctly about my thinking, then yes!
For a given gear cutter module (or DP) size, there is a specific tooth size and spacing. So, if you want a certain number of teeth you can calculate the diameter of the gear. Likewise, if you want a given diameter, you can calculate the number of teeth it would need. In my case, I counted the number of teeth in the gears on the real one from photos, ran the math, and got lucky that I have a cutter set that works. Otherwise I would have had to redo the number of teeth on all the gears, or buy another cutter set.

Thanks for the answer, Chris. Yes.......you were correctly thinking that I was thinking what you were thinking.  :shrug: I have a book on Gears and Gear cutting. I'm now thinking that if I were to read more than the first 6 pages, I would have an even better idea of what you're thinking.  :hammerbash:
 
Do you think that having the Tooling Plate for the RT would of made your set up any easier? http://sherline.com/product/3725-5-rotary-table-tooling-plate/

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 10, 2017, 03:54:50 PM

Do you think that having the Tooling Plate for the RT would of made your set up any easier? http://sherline.com/product/3725-5-rotary-table-tooling-plate/ (http://sherline.com/product/3725-5-rotary-table-tooling-plate/)

Jim

Possibly - it would have given more places to put the hold down clamps, including around the far side. Looks like a simple enough plate, could make one for a lot less than the $50 they want for it.
I wonder how tricky it is to put in place on the table - the four hold downs go in the slots on the table, you would have to put the bottom halves of the hold downs in the slots first then run the screws in from the top - doesnt look too easy to line up, unless the hold downs are at the very end of the slots?
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on February 10, 2017, 04:30:35 PM
If you stick a small magnet on the end of a rod you can reach in and position the tee nut.

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 10, 2017, 05:22:07 PM
If you stick a small magnet on the end of a rod you can reach in and position the tee nut.

Pete
Neat trick!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 10, 2017, 05:48:43 PM

Do you think that having the Tooling Plate for the RT would of made your set up any easier? http://sherline.com/product/3725-5-rotary-table-tooling-plate/ (http://sherline.com/product/3725-5-rotary-table-tooling-plate/)

Jim

Possibly - it would have given more places to put the hold down clamps, including around the far side. Looks like a simple enough plate, could make one for a lot less than the $50 they want for it.
I wonder how tricky it is to put in place on the table - the four hold downs go in the slots on the table, you would have to put the bottom halves of the hold downs in the slots first then run the screws in from the top - doesnt look too easy to line up, unless the hold downs are at the very end of the slots?

I have one and it's no problem to mount. You slide the T-nuts into the slots on the RT so they're even with the outer engraved ring. Then set the plate onto the RT (it has a boss that drops into the hole in the center of the RT). Spin it around so the mounting holes line up with the T-nuts and then screw down. It should be easy to make one.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: AOG on February 10, 2017, 06:17:41 PM
The tooling plate is great. It's all I use on mine. It also has the advantage of being lower profile than useing a chuck. That way you get more z axis room if you use it right.

Tony
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 10, 2017, 08:16:59 PM
Thanks guys! I'll look into setting one up.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 10, 2017, 08:31:15 PM
Bunch done this afternoon - started with rounding off the back corners on the quadrant arm
(https://s5.postimg.cc/hbq5aedc7/IMG_9308.jpg)
and then drilling the holes for the support brace
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kjumnfzlz/IMG_9309.jpg)
The brace itself started out as a length of square bar, milled in the end with a cutter the same size as the axle,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/m0aqjbrwn/IMG_9310.jpg)
and then drilled the mount holes to match the ones in the quadrant. These are for locator pins during soldering.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/d6ju284xz/IMG_9311.jpg)
Next the arm was tilted in the vise
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7jnh4r2fb/IMG_9312.jpg)
and the top milled off
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5gd1x32mf/IMG_9313.jpg)
leaving a nicely tapered arm ready to solder on
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bikonkr2f/IMG_9314.jpg)
After soldering the arm in place, last steps were to turn down the axle ends and trim them to length.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/l4e93vi87/IMG_9315.jpg)
The long end on top will fit into the drawbar bracket and act as the pivot, and the lower end will get the front axle hinge assembly.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3sdwifoqv/IMG_9318.jpg)
Next up, got the gear support brackets made, starting with drilling the holes for the gear shafts. Both plates were kept clamped together through these steps to keep the holes and recesses aligned properly.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wjaq8hukn/IMG_9319.jpg)
The through holes for bolting the plates to the vertical back plate were drilled next,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qjmz4u9s7/IMG_9320.jpg)
and the recess for the front milled in.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/y0w6k1zbb/IMG_9321.jpg)
The back plate was then drilled/tapped for the mounting bolts
(https://s5.postimg.cc/uvg67l62v/IMG_9322.jpg)
as well as the holes to bolt this plate to the front bolster on the frame
(https://s5.postimg.cc/jx4wpehhj/IMG_9323.jpg)
Here are the parts so far test fit together. The top/bottom plates had their ends rounded over on the belt/disc sander - that shape is not critical, so it was quicker to sand them by eye than to set up the mill and a holder.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4cxiyv7d3/IMG_9325.jpg)
Next time I'll get started on the drawbar block, which holds the quadrant pin as well as providing a front tow hook.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on February 10, 2017, 09:09:04 PM
That's quite a nice little assembly there Chris, and a lot of work in it too!!  Much more than the casual observer would ever realize. It will look good mounted to the front of the frame.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on February 11, 2017, 01:43:07 AM
Damn Dog, them elves have been busy.  :lolb: bet you been feeding them plenty of cookies...Looks great Chris  :ThumbsUp:

 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: fumopuc on February 11, 2017, 06:54:48 PM
Hi Chris, I am still there and following quietly. Impressive progress.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 11, 2017, 09:11:00 PM
Thanks guys! Glad to have you all along for the ride!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 11, 2017, 09:31:52 PM
Looks good, Chris.  It looks like that clock building experience is coming in handy!  ;)

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 11, 2017, 09:37:10 PM
Continuing on with the front steering gear assembly, next up was the front drawbar block. I started with a chunk of steel from a larger bar, and milled it down to a 1"x3/4"x1/2" shape, always keeping two of the original outside edges on the back and bottom of the mill vise so no angles built up as I went.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/nruz64dfr/IMG_9329.jpg)
then drilled/tapped a pair of holes in the back end to bolt it to the mounting plate
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gd5ndqrk7/IMG_9330.jpg)
which was temporarily held on with a pair of bolts. I was going to silver solder it, later on decided to countersink the bolts and hold it together with high strength loctite.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ojxn5bhmv/IMG_9333.jpg)
Next step was to cut the slot for the drawbar - first chain drilled two holes to remove the bulk of the metal
(https://s5.postimg.cc/c6ksyeryf/IMG_9334.jpg)
and cleaned it up with an end mill
(https://s5.postimg.cc/c7uqrtts7/IMG_9335.jpg)
and then drilled the holes through from the top for the drawbar pin (small hole) and the quadrant arm pivot (large hole).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/p0iurr5dz/IMG_9336.jpg)
then milled a step into the top surface, angled slightly down to the front end
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6m8bnrt3b/IMG_9337.jpg)
and milled steps into the side in front of the pivot hole
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4vpamabk7/IMG_9339.jpg)
Next up was the mounting plate, drilled holes for the bolts that will hold it to the block and to the front frame bolster
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ph42e6t53/IMG_9340.jpg)
Marked out the holes in the bolster (removed from the rest of the frame), and drilled/tapped those
(https://s5.postimg.cc/k6z3mw8w7/IMG_9341.jpg)
With the drawbar block and quadrant arm in place, I held up the steering gear assembly and marked the holes to hold it to the bolster, then drilled/tapped those as well.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/y21zj3sp3/IMG_9342.jpg)
And a couple shots of it all together on the frame again:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wbiyhmb5z/IMG_9345.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/kaxigw3rb/IMG_9352.jpg)
I still need to turn the drawbar pin, which is a simple stepped rod, and then can start on the lower steering arm and front axle assembly...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 11, 2017, 09:38:08 PM
Looks good, Chris.  It looks like that clock building experience is coming in handy!  ;)

Jim
Oh yeah! Couple of gears, no sweat!  Bevel gears still take a while, only done a few of those.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 11, 2017, 09:59:01 PM
Glad to have you all along for the ride!

As bumpy as it is...it's a good ride.  :Lol:
And you;re able to stick to the road better than I do.  :lolb:

Where I'm going...I don't need...roads.

Hey...is that yet another boat in the background (12th pic I think).
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 11, 2017, 10:07:53 PM
Glad to have you all along for the ride!

As bumpy as it is...it's a good ride.  :Lol:
And you;re able to stick to the road better than I do.  :lolb:

Where I'm going...I don't need...roads.

Hey...is that yet another boat in the background (12th pic I think).
You need a sports car, they hug the road better!

That model in the background is the New Bedford whaleboat model, built that one in 2014. It is the type carried on the old sailing whaleships (back in the Moby Dick days).
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on February 11, 2017, 10:41:56 PM
More nice progress Chris. That front end is really taking shape now!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 11, 2017, 11:15:03 PM
More nice progress Chris. That front end is really taking shape now!!

Bill
I can't wait to get the front skids on and see how it looks. The folks at the museum kindly took some detailed pics of them, they are heavy wood with a plate metal covering, with an extra runner down the bottom.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 12, 2017, 03:34:21 AM
More great progress, Chris.

The whaleboat looks to be plank on frame?

So what kind of sports car does a person need?

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 12, 2017, 04:13:29 AM
More great progress, Chris.

The whaleboat looks to be plank on frame?

So what kind of sports car does a person need?

Jim
The whaleboat is plank on frame. They were an interesting design, partly lapstrake, partly a variant of carvel planking. The middle planks were butted like carvel planks, but since they were thin like lapstrake, they used a batten on the inside to strengthen them. The uppermost and lowest planks were normal lapstrake. This combination kept weight down but strength and repairability up.


And most any sports car will do. I am partial to 2 seater convertibles.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 12, 2017, 04:24:16 AM
More great progress, Chris.

The whaleboat looks to be plank on frame?

So what kind of sports car does a person need?

Jim
The whaleboat is plank on frame. They were an interesting design, partly lapstrake, partly a variant of carvel planking. The middle planks were butted like carvel planks, but since they were thin like lapstrake, they used a batten on the inside to strengthen them. The uppermost and lowest planks were normal lapstrake. This combination kept weight down but strength and repairability up.


And most any sports car will do. I am partial to 2 seater convertibles.

Went back and revisited the picture. I can see what you're saying now. Plus...... I guess they were built so they could stack them on deck. What an era!

Once I get out of my motorcycle phase (that's lasted for 51 years now), I can see a 2 seat sports car in my future. A red one!  :cartwheel:

Jim

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on February 12, 2017, 09:38:29 AM
Hi Jim,
 One like this? Sorry you would have to repaint it!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 12, 2017, 01:54:53 PM
Nice car! That would work!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 12, 2017, 01:57:43 PM
Hi Jim,
 One like this? Sorry you would have to repaint it!

Cheers Kerrin

Kerrin, That white TF would do just fine!  :ThumbsUp:

It's funny you posted that. I've lusted after one of those ever since I saw one back in the early sixties. I love those moulded in headlights.

Jim

PS: This would work as well: https://classiccars.com/listings/view/955395/1954-mg-tf-for-sale-in-beverly-hills-california-90210
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 12, 2017, 02:10:51 PM
Hi Jim,
 One like this? Sorry you would have to repaint it!

Cheers Kerrin

Kerrin, That white TF would do just fine!  :ThumbsUp:

It's funny you posted that. I've lusted after one of those ever since I saw one back in the early sixties. I love those moulded in headlights.

Jim

PS: This would work as well: https://classiccars.com/listings/view/955395/1954-mg-tf-for-sale-in-beverly-hills-california-90210 (https://classiccars.com/listings/view/955395/1954-mg-tf-for-sale-in-beverly-hills-california-90210)
Wow, Jim is buying me a car! What a guy! :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 12, 2017, 02:13:41 PM
Hi Jim,
 One like this? Sorry you would have to repaint it!

Cheers Kerrin

Kerrin, That white TF would do just fine!  :ThumbsUp:

It's funny you posted that. I've lusted after one of those ever since I saw one back in the early sixties. I love those moulded in headlights.

Jim

PS: This would work as well: https://classiccars.com/listings/view/955395/1954-mg-tf-for-sale-in-beverly-hills-california-90210 (https://classiccars.com/listings/view/955395/1954-mg-tf-for-sale-in-beverly-hills-california-90210)
Wow, Jim is buying me a car! What a guy! :lolb:

Sorry my friend...............you'd have to send me a lot more cookies....................a whole lot more!  :LickLips:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on February 12, 2017, 02:37:04 PM
Hi Jim,
 As much as I would to have a toy like this it belongs to a friend....not an original

"sweet MG-TF ‘replicar’ (on Triumph Herald underpinings with f’glass panels & Datsun 1500 engine & box "

As he changes vehicle's faster than anybody else I know I'll let you know when it comes up for sale.....My son that lives just out of Calgary has priced getting his project can from here to there & at $8000 so not to bad......

 :stickpoke:

Cheers Kerrin

PS Oh yeah Chris progress is looking good!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 12, 2017, 04:32:50 PM
Back to the lower steering gear bracket - the nearest bar stock I had to the right size was from the offcut from making the engine beds. One dimension was correct, just needed to mill down one side to get the other direction the proper size:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/jw0hch2x3/IMG_9355.jpg)
and then, with the bar in the mill vise, notched out the opening in the bracket that will take the axle assembly. I left the part on the longer bar so I could hold it securely in the vise.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/r0ialia6f/IMG_9356.jpg)
then ran the mill down the length of the bracket, leaving a 1/4" ridge in the center. This ridge will wrap down the ends later on.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/d83vpvjev/IMG_9357.jpg)
Thats about all I could do with the part still on the longer bar, so I cut it off and cleaned up the cut end, then drilled through for the pivot that will go into the axle assembly:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kcloywqo7/IMG_9359.jpg)
then turned the part and drilled for the quadrant bottom rod:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rh3i7xxxj/IMG_9360.jpg)
then bored that hole out to size - I have much better luck boring the larger holes than direct drilling them, the resulting hole is much cleaner and more accurate:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4to91sidj/IMG_9361.jpg)
Last step on that hole was to mill a shallow slot for the support arm on the bottom of the quadrant:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/zce1mr7k7/IMG_9363.jpg)
Here is the bracket test fit to the quadrant:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4jgqig3rb/IMG_9364.jpg)
For the next steps, rounding the bottoms of the bracket and milling in the recesses, I need to be able to hold the part in the 4-jaw. To give a solid grip and prevent the part from flexing, I took a bit of 1/2" bar stock, turned to be a snug fit, drilled a hole through the center, and bolted that in place:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4xi2i1nuv/IMG_9366.jpg)
With that centered in the 4 jaw and mounted to the rotary table, I rounded off the lower corners of the bracket,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/616s7qxvr/IMG_9368.jpg)
and milled in the notches down the sides and around the hole, to make it look like the original casting:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/vl92e6j9j/IMG_9371.jpg)
Then used some loctite to hold it to the quadrant arm, and test fit into place:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/e98psqps7/IMG_9376.jpg)
After the loctite cures, I will cross drill and pin the bracket to the quadrant shaft.
Next up: the axle assembly!


Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on February 12, 2017, 05:36:45 PM
OH YES!
Look real good now!

 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 12, 2017, 08:42:16 PM
OH YES!
Look real good now!

 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Cheers Kerrin
Thanks!

But now I have a hunger for some popcorn....
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 12, 2017, 08:57:38 PM
Well, one good thing about a day with freezing rain, rain, then snow - makes you want to stay in a nice warm shop and build something!

I have a good start on the front axle frame. Since it needs a 1/8" radius groove down the bottom edge, and I dont have a ball end mill that size, I took another route to the same result: started with a slightly wider piece of bar stock, and drilled a 1/4" hole lengthwise through it near what will be the bottom edge.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/nv2a91gxz/IMG_9378.jpg)
Then I marked out the shape of the frame on the side of it, using the top of the axle hole as a reference
(https://s5.postimg.cc/cwr0quscn/IMG_9379.jpg)
First step to getting that shape, drill the holes for the pivot and for the ends of the tapered side openings (they were just there in the original to reduce the thickness of the cast frame, plus I think they look great)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xi5sir9xj/IMG_9381.jpg)
And then turned it upright and milled in the top surface, plus the lower flats where the nuts on the u-bolts will go. The u-bolts wrap around the axle bar and hold it to the frame.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/obnhvh4p3/IMG_9382.jpg)
To mill the angled surfaces, I used the tops of the holes in the side to line up the frame in the vise - this surface will be parallel to the opening.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/blj9idwqv/IMG_9384.jpg)
Then it was just a matter or making a series of shallow cuts till the flat connected the other features. Same cuts were made on the opposite end.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/p3q5uo8w7/IMG_9386.jpg)
A quick check to make sure it clears the upper bracket:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6pfmqowlj/IMG_9387.jpg)
and started milling out the openings in the side. I started by drilling one more hole to remove the bulk of the material, then connected the bottoms of the holes
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xbwoteq6f/IMG_9388.jpg)
To do the angled cut at the top, I used the flats to position the part, and a square bar set in the v-groove of the vise to hold it in position. At first that was just a 'what the heck, try it' move, but once clamped down it was remarkably secure, so I went ahead and made the cuts, which saved the time to position the vise at an angle.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/jw9o3yhon/IMG_9389.jpg)
With all the upper works cut to shape, last milling operations were to cut away half of the axle hole
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wc6dxpb0n/IMG_9391.jpg)
and cut the recesses down the side, leaving posts where the u-bolts will be
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6unze3taf/IMG_9393.jpg)
Here are the parts so far, ready to drill the holes for the u-bolts, and also I still need to pin the bottom bracket onto the quadrant shaft.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bulfm1yx3/IMG_9395.jpg)
Very happy with how that whole assembly is coming together - a few more days and the skids should be on. I also will be making a set of wheels for running on non-snow surfaces. The skids will be put on for display times.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 13, 2017, 02:50:48 AM
Those skids might come in handy back in your country right now, Chris!

I bet that piece took a lot of thought in order to keep from machining yourself into a corner!  :shrug:

Jim

PS: Ate my last cookie today.  :LickLips:  :'(

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 13, 2017, 02:58:53 AM
Those skids might come in handy back in your country right now, Chris!

I bet that piece took a lot of thought in order to keep from machining yourself into a corner!  :shrug:

Jim

PS: Ate my last cookie today.  :LickLips: :'(
The bad snow so far has gone south and east of here, only about an inch on the ground here today, but they are predicting several more inches worth tonight and tomorrow. Nice thing about retirement, when the going gets tough, stay home!

It did take some planning on the order of milling, just like the bracket above it did the other day. Fortunately it is large enough to leave plenty to grab onto.

P.S. - send a man some cookies, he eats for a couple days. Send him the recipe and he can make his own!!   :Lol:   Check post 301 in this thread!   :stir:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 13, 2017, 03:20:37 AM

P.S. - send a man some cookies, he eats for a couple days. Send him the recipe and he can make his own!!   :Lol:   Check post 301 in this thread!   :stir:

So what happened to: "Send a man some cookies, he eats for a couple days. Get tired of him whining about being out of cookies and send him some more"!  :shrug:

OK..........I give............got the recipe printed out.  :LickLips:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 13, 2017, 03:35:44 AM
...
So what happened to: "Send a man some cookies, he eats for a couple days. Get tired of him whining about being out of cookies and send him some more"!  :shrug:
Sounds too much like some of the 'logic' from my working days!   :paranoia:

Key item on the recipe is mint baking emulsion, dont use the normal mint extract or it just bakes off and leaves no flavor behind.

Great. Now I'm hungry!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on February 13, 2017, 04:37:38 AM
OH YES!
Look real good now!

 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Cheers Kerrin
Thanks!



But now I have a hunger for some popcorn....

Been & checked the field & it's coming along, may be a bit late as summer comes & goes! Not looking good for camping next week!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on February 13, 2017, 05:04:22 AM
Ye-gads! I'm off line for a few days and you have Six pages of updates!  :o  And not all of them are food related either.  You made a lot of progress on your steering!  And great work it is too!  You don't take a break!  I have NO idea how you get so much done so quickly.  I can't even keep up with the build, much less make this kind of actual forward progress on a project! :)
Looks amazing Chris,  :popcorn:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 13, 2017, 12:53:59 PM
Ye-gads! I'm off line for a few days and you have Six pages of updates!  :o  And not all of them are food related either.  You made a lot of progress on your steering!  And great work it is too!  You don't take a break!  I have NO idea how you get so much done so quickly.  I can't even keep up with the build, much less make this kind of actual forward progress on a project! :)
Looks amazing Chris,  :popcorn:
Kim
It just takes practice, prectice, percatise,... Rats! I mean Practize!


Sigh, better go practice some more....!  :Lol:


The last couple of snowy/rainy days kept me inside, lots of shop time. I am still trying to decide how to make the steering wheel, may skip and come back to it later. Thin rim and spokes, needs to handle heat being near smokebox so soft solder is out...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 13, 2017, 05:43:12 PM
This morning I was looking at the front axle frame, and decided it was a little too chunky, so I went back and milled some more off the top and bottom surfaces to thin it up:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/vhvdfk747/IMG_9397.jpg)
I also drilled the holes to take the u-bolts that hold the axle bar in place:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tc12l23nr/IMG_9396.jpg)
Then I made up the u-bolts themselves. The middle ones started as 1-3/4" lengths of 3/32" bar, with the ends turned down and threaded 2-56. The outer bolts were the same, just 1-1/4" long.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/nqenh02yv/IMG_9399.jpg)
Then the u-bolts were heated with a torch and bent around the axle so the ends came out roughly even, then everything bolted up.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/u5i9rez2f/IMG_9400.jpg)
The tips of the middle u-bolts were trimmed off above the nuts so they would clear the upper bracket. Also, I made up the hinge pin for the upper bracket. It has a small hole on the other end to take a cotter pin when it is all assembled after painting. The drawbar pin is also in place now.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/75bmf318n/IMG_9403.jpg)
Next step is to thread the ends of the axle bar for the nuts to hold the skids/wheels in place, then I can start on the skids.

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on February 13, 2017, 05:47:43 PM
Best start getting those gnomes biceps in shape too Chris if they are going to be able to steer this thing :) Cookies alone might not be enough... :lolb:

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 13, 2017, 05:50:24 PM
Best start getting those gnomes biceps in shape too Chris if they are going to be able to steer this thing :) Cookies alone might not be enough... :lolb:

Bill
I caught one of them with a bottle of steroids and a brochure from the local gym!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on February 13, 2017, 06:34:41 PM
Better hide the credit cards then or they may all sign up at the gym... :ROFL:

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 14, 2017, 01:58:28 AM
I got the ends of the axle threaded (1/4-32) and a set of nuts made from hex bar:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/vqxjj89af/IMG_9404.jpg)
Then, one more set of parts for the day - the brackets that hold the skids to the axle are started. They began as a pair of chunks of stainless steel, squared up and mounted in the 4-jaw in the lathe to turn in the protruding bosses on either side
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rvu5gnq4n/IMG_9405.jpg)
and to drill the axle holes
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3tdbls9hj/IMG_9406.jpg)
Then the parts were moved over to the mill to nibble away at the shape of the lower mounting arms. I started by drilling the curves under the upper ends, and some extra holes along the bottom to remove the bulk of the material
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4wxfxqu4n/IMG_9407.jpg)
and then milled to shape. The bar across the bottom is there for support for now, it will be removed later, leaving the two 'legs' coming down to the skids.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fxsl2rmdj/IMG_9409.jpg)
Then sawed away the upper corners
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wa7868q2v/IMG_9410.jpg)
and milled the tops of the feet
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6fxfggq2v/IMG_9411.jpg)
before taking them to the disc/belt sander to shape the outer surfaces of the legs
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ms7h674ef/IMG_9412.jpg)
Then it was time to saw out the bar across the bottom, and sand that cut smooth
(https://s5.postimg.cc/vbqv3ycqv/IMG_9414.jpg)
Here they are test fit on the axle, just need to drill the holes to mount them to the skids:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5u8gkcv0n/IMG_9415.jpg)
Getting close to having the hauler stand up for itself!

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 14, 2017, 02:48:55 AM
Great progress, Chris. I think I see wood carving experience coming into play here.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 14, 2017, 02:55:12 AM
Great progress, Chris. I think I see wood carving experience coming into play here.

Jim
Probably right! See the animal inside the block, set it free!


If I could just get the chisels to work on stainless....
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 14, 2017, 09:55:05 PM
Got started on the skids today, began with drawing up the profile full size (full size for the model, that is), and cutting it out to use as a pattern for that dusty brown metal - some of you guys might have heard of the brand name, Wood.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7wn6n7e2v/IMG_9417.jpg)
Then up to the other shop, and cut a pair of the skids out of some Swiss Pear wood on the bandsaw - great stuff to work, very tight grain and takes a crisp edge.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/uzdpmdfk7/IMG_9418.jpg)
The next step is to wrap the horizontal surfaces in metal. One of the folks up at the museum kindly sent me some closeups of the real skids, they have a plate iron or steel plate wrapped around the horizontal surfaces, and the tips have plates on the sides. There is also another narrow strip down the bottom to give it some extra bite on turns. Though Jean Claude Kiley has nothing to worry about from these skis...
I cut some strips out of a sheet of 0.020" brass to wrap the tops/bottoms in:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/oa766cu87/IMG_9419.jpg)
and then cut a narrower strip, bent it to shape, and soldered it in place:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5vwn2dhxj/IMG_9420.jpg)
followed by drilling/tapping for 2-56 bolts to hold the strips on. The tap was run through the brass, and a few turns into the wood - the bolts would self thread the rest of the way in.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/efg104q9z/IMG_9421.jpg)
Also cut out the shorter pieces for the sides of the tips, and started bolting them on as well.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fx1hbov0n/IMG_9423.jpg)
Still need to do the side strips on the second skid, and there is also a metal crossbar that goes between the tips to strengthen the whole assembly.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on February 14, 2017, 11:00:45 PM
Is that the same tree that the partridge was in? Nice form work.


Cletus
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on February 14, 2017, 11:06:24 PM
Nicely done Chris.  Will the brass be painted?

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 14, 2017, 11:36:26 PM
Is that the same tree that the partridge was in? Nice form work.


Cletus
Not sure if it was that tree or the one next to it...!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 14, 2017, 11:42:38 PM
Nicely done Chris.  Will the brass be painted?

-Bob
The entire steering gear assembly, and most of the whole model, will be painted black. The original plates were iron or steel, and the timbers I've seen were either painted or maybe creosoted like railroad ties.


If made today, a Lombard would probably have metalic two tone paint with flames and pinstripes.  As far as I know though, the original ones were just black.


One thing I saw recently was a short video of a gentleman in Maine who has been collecting Lombard parts from abandoned ones in the remote woods, and is building a complete working one! Once done it will be the fourth operational one in the world these days. Here's hoping he gets it going!!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 15, 2017, 01:51:08 AM
One thing I saw recently was a short video of a gentleman in Maine who has been collecting Lombard parts from abandoned ones in the remote woods, and is building a complete working one! Once done it will be the fourth operational one in the world these days. Here's hoping he gets it going!!

That's the kind of stuff that I find so interesting. The interests different people have and the lengths they will go to do it.

There's stories there...as in each of us...of how we got to where we are and doing what we do.

Some time ago my wife went out and collected stories of old time farmers in the mid-west. Fascinating stuff.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 15, 2017, 05:01:40 AM
There's a product that the model railroaders use called "Blacken It" for turning brass and other metals somewhat black:
http://www.modelexpo-online.com/product/AW2

I think I've got some around here somewhere. If I can find it, I'll put some on some brass and post the results.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on February 15, 2017, 05:19:19 AM
Hi Chris,
 Your posting photos of brown steel is going to have Jo reaching for :wine1: :wine1: :lolb:

The skid look good!

The guy finding bits of old haulers to make a "new" is cool! Bit like the guys here who have built a couple of misquito planes, I was watching some YouTube last night on them, great work.

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 15, 2017, 02:29:18 PM
There's a product that the model railroaders use called "Blacken It" for turning brass and other metals somewhat black:
http://www.modelexpo-online.com/product/AW2 (http://www.modelexpo-online.com/product/AW2)

I think I've got some around here somewhere. If I can find it, I'll put some on some brass and post the results.

Jim
I have used it in the past, it works pretty well as long as you get the metal very clean first. There are simaler products for aluminum/etc too, same results, metal must be scoured clean, no oils or tarnish. For the Hauler, the black paint sprayed on is simpler.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: ddmckee54 on February 15, 2017, 07:22:34 PM
I agree, the paint's simpler.  Besides, it just going to get worn off anyway, right?  I mean you are going to use this hauler in its' natural environment, right?  It's not going to be the steam crawler equivalent of a Ramp Tramp or a Hanger Queen, right?

Are you going to make the wheels that interchanged with the skids so they could use the hauler during the non-winter months?

Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 15, 2017, 09:51:30 PM
I agree, the paint's simpler.  Besides, it just going to get worn off anyway, right?  I mean you are going to use this hauler in its' natural environment, right?  It's not going to be the steam crawler equivalent of a Ramp Tramp or a Hanger Queen, right?

Are you going to make the wheels that interchanged with the skids so they could use the hauler during the non-winter months?

Don

I figure the paint around the sprockets and gears will get worn back, just like the original. The rest will at least get dirty. Assuming it runs well, it should get some frequent playtime out in the yard. The grass is too lumpy for the small front wheels (yes, will be making them to use for running, just like the originals had them to move when no snow). The wheels are only about 1-1/4" or so, since they have to clear the quadrant arm. A larger set would need a longer axle, and would raise the front end. So, it will get most of its running around the driveway and dirt areas. This one will be used, could haul the lumber in to build the hanger for the other models!
I am really curious to see how much weight it will be able to pull on a wheeled cart, a lot depends on the final weight of the hauler and how much grip it can get - on pavement probably not as much as on dirt/gravel. Too much weight to pull on a paved surface will probably make it do burnouts (worlds slowest burnouts? ).
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 15, 2017, 11:12:41 PM
Final parts on for the skids, bolted on the upper brackets, and made the crossbars at the tips. Simply lengths of 1/8" bar, threaded 5-40 at the ends for the retaining nuts inside and out of each skid. Ready for some paint! Still need to decide how to make the steering wheel, and make the wheels for summer use.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/uzmwduubr/IMG_9427.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/67na6md53/IMG_9429.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/p1933mbd3/IMG_9430.jpg)
After the steering wheel and wheels, I think I am going to make the boiler support bracket, and at least mock up the firebox for the boiler so I can set the blank tube for the boiler in place - that should give a much better appearance to everything and keep the motivation up while working on the differential and engine parts! Oh yeah, the engine, this IS an engine forum, right? 'Bout time to get to that part!

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 15, 2017, 11:22:15 PM
Really shaping up Chris.

It's a really nifty model.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 15, 2017, 11:24:06 PM
Really shaping up Chris.

It's a really nifty model.

Thanks Zee!   :cheers:

Hmm, once you retire, will you change your handle to ZeeWasAProgrammer?!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 15, 2017, 11:29:40 PM
Hmm, once you retire, will you change your handle to ZeeWasAProgrammer?!   :Lol:

I doubt it. Nor will it be ZeeStillAProgrammer.

Maybe ZeeRetiredProgrammer.

No! It will be 'ZeeHappyProgrammer'. Yeah.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: steam guy willy on February 16, 2017, 02:56:44 AM
this is looking really good, and great to see a prototype being made, can't wait to see it running  .......and hear it as well !!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 16, 2017, 03:28:01 AM
this is looking really good, and great to see a prototype being made, can't wait to see it running  .......and hear it as well !!
Thanks Willy! I am going to be going up to the museum in Maine in May to see one of the real ones run, and will be taking the model up too. It may not be running by then, but should be by the next trip at the end of July, hope to have some video of them running together!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 16, 2017, 04:30:23 AM
Wow.........now we can start to see just how big this model is going to be! Impressive!  :)

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: joe d on February 16, 2017, 12:30:28 PM
Chris

Still following, and still enjoying :ThumbsUp:

Nice thing here is that we don't have to wait very long for another update  :NotWorthy:
the speed of progress is amazing!

Joe
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: steam guy willy on February 16, 2017, 01:40:14 PM
Will you be making the front wheel sets as well as an accessory, for when the snow melts ?? The axles for the skids are quite low so did it have a compleat bolt on steering mechanism ??
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 16, 2017, 03:42:46 PM
Will you be making the front wheel sets as well as an accessory, for when the snow melts ?? The axles for the skids are quite low so did it have a compleat bolt on steering mechanism ??

Yes - the wheels are the next parts up probably. For running around here on the driveway and such they will be used most often, then put the skids back on for display. The wheels are fairly small as you say, so that they clear the frame and quadrant arm. On the real thing they were just used for non-snow transport, so it didn't matter how large they were. I am planning on making them out of brass round bar, drilling/milling out the spokes. The wheels look a lot like a small flywheel. They are at the left in this rendering of the 3D parts:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/iziemfp53/Steering_Gear_v16.jpg)

One other thing I need to change first though - just got an email back from one of the kind folks in Maine with a better photo of the skids in use on snow. I made the crossbars as a solid piece, it turns out that they are articulated to let the skids move more independantly. There is an eyebolt at either skid tip, and the crossbar has eyes at either end to connect to them. It makes sense to let them rock independantly, now that I see them in action. So, I will swap out the solid bars for the correct ones next.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/pnlb07jyf/DSC_6097-001.jpg)
Oh yeah, and I need to add the safety chains from the frame to the axle too!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 16, 2017, 03:52:12 PM
I know what, Chris. Instead of wheels..........why don't you make a complete track system for the front end..........shouldn't take too long to knock out the few hundred parts needed!  :lolb:

It's really nice to have the folks up in Maine supplying you with pictures as you go along. Are they following your build thread and someone spotted the tie rods?

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 16, 2017, 04:29:50 PM
I know what, Chris. Instead of wheels..........why don't you make a complete track system for the front end..........shouldn't take too long to knock out the few hundred parts needed!  :lolb:

It's really nice to have the folks up in Maine supplying you with pictures as you go along. Are they following your build thread and someone spotted the tie rods?

Jim
More tracks for the front?   :slap:   and here I thought I liked you!


If I can arrange to get access to the Marion steam shovel near here then I may do a model of it, it has three sets of tracks I think...


I have been sending pics up to a couple of people at the museum and university at major milestones, one of them sent me the skid detail pics. Definitely looking forward to meeting everyone up there this spring.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 16, 2017, 05:05:47 PM
I know what, Chris. Instead of wheels..........why don't you make a complete track system for the front end..........shouldn't take too long to knock out the few hundred parts needed!  :lolb:

It's really nice to have the folks up in Maine supplying you with pictures as you go along. Are they following your build thread and someone spotted the tie rods?

Jim
More tracks for the front?   :slap:   and here I thought I liked you!


If I can arrange to get access to the Marion steam shovel near here then I may do a model of it, it has three sets of tracks I think...


I have been sending pics up to a couple of people at the museum and university at major milestones, one of them sent me the skid detail pics. Definitely looking forward to meeting everyone up there this spring.

I'm betting that once the Marion Steam Shovel folks see the model and documentation of your Lombard, they'll be more than pleased to accommodate you.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 16, 2017, 05:47:31 PM
I know what, Chris. Instead of wheels..........why don't you make a complete track system for the front end..........shouldn't take too long to knock out the few hundred parts needed!  :lolb:

It's really nice to have the folks up in Maine supplying you with pictures as you go along. Are they following your build thread and someone spotted the tie rods?

Jim
More tracks for the front?   :slap:   and here I thought I liked you!


If I can arrange to get access to the Marion steam shovel near here then I may do a model of it, it has three sets of tracks I think...


I have been sending pics up to a couple of people at the museum and university at major milestones, one of them sent me the skid detail pics. Definitely looking forward to meeting everyone up there this spring.

I'm betting that once the Marion Steam Shovel folks see the model and documentation of your Lombard, they'll be more than pleased to accommodate you.
I hope so! The little rectangle of land it sits on now is owned by the town and designated a landmark, so hopefully the historic society there is not too 'governmentish'. I figure that if I show some pictures of the Shay and Lombard, along with the 3D model, that I could get access inside if I would give them full copies of all photos, measurements, and 3D model/plans to help them document the machine - then it could be a win-win for all concerned. Definitely worth the attempt, might get them stirred up to do some restoration work on it.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 16, 2017, 05:51:31 PM
Okay, after hearing back from the museum of the correct linkage on the skid tips, I went back and made the ones at the read tips just a through bolt, and the ones at the front an articulated set of eye bolts. I went back through the vintage pictures, and found a few that show this same setup. Amazing what you can spot if you know what to look for!
Here are the new links in action:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/be30vehaf/IMG_9432.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/kadszc7wn/IMG_9433.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: tvoght on February 16, 2017, 06:34:34 PM
Outstanding.

--Tim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 16, 2017, 07:41:34 PM
Outstanding.

--Tim
Thanks Tim!

Update: I was just in getting started on the front wheels, turned down the blanks, and started drilling for the spokes, partway through realized that I forgot to add the half-width of the drill bit to the side offset of the table.    :wallbang: So, back to remake one blank, and hope I'm not a half-width again...!   :facepalm2:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 16, 2017, 07:58:19 PM
I was just sent this link, to a set of three audio recordings of a steersman from a Lombard. Fascinating stuff! The links to the other two are across the top of the page.

http://resources.presqueisle.lib.me.us/omeka/exhibits/show/ashland/o-daggett/lombard-log-hauler-pt1

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Roger B on February 16, 2017, 08:26:42 PM
Still following and enjoying  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp: the picture of the of full size one underway is excellent  :)  :)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 16, 2017, 09:14:17 PM
Still following and enjoying  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: the picture of the of full size one underway is excellent  :) :)

If you want to see more photos and videos, check out their museum website here, lots of great stuff!
General Info:
http://www.maineforestandloggingmuseum.org/lombard-log-hauler-resources
Videos:
http://www.maineforestandloggingmuseum.org/lombard-steam-log-hauler-38-runs
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 16, 2017, 10:34:30 PM
Pretty fascinating stuff. Thanks for that.  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on February 16, 2017, 11:22:04 PM
That whole thing is soooo cool!!! I did not know about the Lombard until you started this project, Chris, and I've been just fastinated by it.  It's like the ole boy just woke up in the middle of the night and decided that if it was too expensive to lay tracks for a rail road that he would just make the loco lay its own tracks!!  :facepalm:

What diameter is the boiler shell for that contraption?

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 17, 2017, 12:55:14 AM
That whole thing is soooo cool!!! I did not know about the Lombard until you started this project, Chris, and I've been just fastinated by it.  It's like the ole boy just woke up in the middle of the night and decided that if it was too expensive to lay tracks for a rail road that he would just make the loco lay its own tracks!!  :facepalm:

What diameter is the boiler shell for that contraption?

Pete
Till Ron & company posted some pics and videos last fall I had never heard of them either. The Lombard seems to have filled a niche for areas too small to bother with laying track and too far for horses to be efficient. Neat stuff! I've found some old articles and books that reference the Lombard, its amazing how quickly he went from idea to prototype to production of a huge machine.


The boiler for the model is 3.25 OD, then there is a saddle tank for water over the top. I want to get the boiler tube blank page n soon to get a real feel for the looks, then I'll go back for differential and engine.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 17, 2017, 03:46:22 PM
With the skids made, it was time to knock out a set of wheels for non-snow/ice running. The wheels are fairly small diameter so that they fit under the steering gear and frame - they were used on the original just for off season transport, and used the same narrow axle as the skids. Some of the modern pictures you see show the haulers with larger rubber truck tires on wider axles, but I am going for the older style. It may be that I will make a wider/taller set for running, depending on how it behaves on these.

To start, turned/drilled the wheel blank on the lathe:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/939k4yvwn/IMG_9434.jpg)
and then over to the rotary table to cut the spokes in. The spokes are approximately .150" wide, and I am using a 5/32" end mill (would have used a 1/8", but it was not long enough to reach through). The rotary table was centered on the cutter, then moved in .150 and left till it just cleared the hub. Drilled the holes for the inner arcs and out at the rim. For the second set of rim holes, the table was moved back .300. Same method as used on the sprockets, and used the method from Don's handy spoke spreadsheet.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/94jhydxqf/IMG_9435.jpg)
then milled the first side of the spokes
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6bqaecxdz/IMG_9436.jpg)
then the other
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fksgoh69z/IMG_9437.jpg)
and cleaned up the outer arc
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mpevb92x3/IMG_9438.jpg)
One down, one to go...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3ycy138cn/IMG_9440.jpg)
Another hour or so for the second wheel, and ready to test on the axle:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/h3sg77287/IMG_9441.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/6uzz1de6f/IMG_9442.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/xu3twj0nb/IMG_9443.jpg)
Time for some painting, then on to the boiler front bracket...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on February 17, 2017, 04:31:05 PM
The skids and wheels both look fantastic Chris. I am loving these family pictures a lot!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on February 17, 2017, 04:45:22 PM
Damn nice work and I am loving it Chris! Awesome looking Dog.


Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 17, 2017, 05:34:32 PM
Thanks guys!

I was starting to lay out the boiler front bracket (supports the front of the boiler down to the frame), but realized that I used up the last of my 1/2" bar stock on the steering gear.

Elf Pucky!

So, gotta find some more of that, in the meantime I'll lay out the outer box for the firebox...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on February 17, 2017, 07:04:48 PM
It just continues to get better and better Chris.

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 17, 2017, 07:39:20 PM
Thanks Bob!

Got the initial drawings made for the firebox and boiler tube shell
(https://s5.postimg.cc/limsxebif/Complete_Hauler_v54.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 18, 2017, 12:27:16 AM
Looking good, Chris. The wheels and skids came out great!

With the wheels on it, it looks like a dragster.  :lolb: Not only did Lombard invent the "Hauler" he invented the first ever dragster...........a really s...l...o...w dragster!  ;D

Jim 

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 18, 2017, 01:11:46 AM
Looking good, Chris. The wheels and skids came out great!

With the wheels on it, it looks like a dragster.  :lolb: Not only did Lombard invent the "Hauler" he invented the first ever dragster...........a really s...l...o...w dragster!  ;D

Jim
Plenty of torque, but the power to weight ratio is not that great!

Instead of a gasser, its more of a 'coaler'

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 18, 2017, 02:05:08 PM
The wheels look really sharp.

I enjoy seeing your drawings. Pretty cool stuff!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 20, 2017, 07:15:27 PM
All right! Back in the shop again finally after a few days knocked flat by a bad cold, fortunately it didn't hang on too long and I can move and think again, almost lifelike...   :insane:

Since I am waiting for a new supply of some 1/2" thick steel bar stock for the front boiler bracket assembly, I figured I'd get started on the firebox shell. This model will be steam powered with its own boiler, but I am going to use a single flue butane burner setup rather than coal firing it, with a single horizontal outer tube for the boiler. MUCH simpler than the original one. That means that the lower firebox shell is just that, a shell, with no function other than holding up the back of the boiler tube. It may also hide a larger steam whistle - the scale size one would make dogs run.

So, I got out some 0.050" thick brass sheet, and cut out the sides and ends, leaving a 1/4" extra on the length of the sides and the top of the ends to use for bending in some assembly tabs. I also cut some blocks of hardwood down for bending forms - they are .200 shorter than the finished sides need to be to allow for the thickness of the tabs and the overlap of the ends.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5r2j3k6br/IMG_9444.jpg)
Then, heated the area at the ends of the sides up to a dull red to anneal them, cooled in water, and clamped them between the wood blocks with 1/4" sticking out, then bent them over with a nylon hammer to avoid edge dings.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/m3cktaknb/IMG_9445.jpg)
Here are the two side plates all formed up, pretty simple shapes.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xgz44hv5z/IMG_9446.jpg)
Then I cut a semicircle in the sides of the blocks to form the end plates with. This arc is the size of the OD of the boiler tube (3.125"), plus 0.050 for the thickness of the plate, so the final curve should match the tube.
The end plates were also annealed along the edge to be bent over, cooled, then clamped in the vise between the blocks:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ke3hl84xz/IMG_9447.jpg)
A little hammering later (the annealed brass bends like butter), and the shape was done. If I was to make another set, I would leave the plates wider, and trim them after this step - you can see how the tops pulled in from the forms somewhat.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rilau9c7b/IMG_9448.jpg)
After a slight tweak with some pliers they fit the tube pretty well,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gx1fi95vr/IMG_9449.jpg)
and a little trimming on the side plate flanges made them fit the end plates,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4jolbcg7b/IMG_9451.jpg)
With the forming done, time to drill holes for the rivets. Lots of holes for the rivets. LOTS and LOTS of holes...
Using the wood forming blocks as a backer, the plates were clamped down in the mill to drill the holes along the edges to join them, as well as the rows of holes across the flat areas to simulate the stay bolt pattern in the real boiler. There is no stress on this firebox like in the real one, so this will just be for show. If this was a true firebox under pressure, it would have been made out of thicker copper with bronze staybolts.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ugi9nyjuv/IMG_9453.jpg)
Matching holes were drilled along the tabs on the side plates
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ejo34zguf/IMG_9454.jpg)
as well as across the sides to mimic the staybolt and seam patterns
(https://s5.postimg.cc/oi91rgq9z/IMG_9455.jpg)
Both end plates are drilled, and one sideplate is too, still need to drill the other side plate, but it is time for a nap - have not got full stength back after the cold, but its very nice to be up and about again with the brain functioning, rather than in 'duh, what?' mode!   :insane:

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 20, 2017, 07:45:31 PM
Nice work Chris.

I've read different things about cooling heated brass. Some let air cool, others quench in water.
Does it make a difference?
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on February 20, 2017, 08:27:26 PM
Water cooling is necessary only if you are in a hurry.  :Lol:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 20, 2017, 09:40:58 PM
Yeah, quenching brass or copper doesn't change anything but how fast it gets cool, not like with steel. On a large complex part it could cause distortion if it cools unevenly, but that isn't a problem with sheet stock like this. It's surprising how easy annealed brass will bend, to a point. As soon as it work hardens it just stops moving. For the thicker copper endcaps for the boiler it will take several heatings and bendings to get the cap shape, since it needs to reform more, not just bend.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: kvom on February 20, 2017, 09:54:26 PM
After being gone for a couple of weeks, I'm now caught up.  Lots of progress.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 20, 2017, 11:22:37 PM
Yeah, quenching brass or copper doesn't change anything but how fast it gets cool, not like with steel. On a large complex part it could cause distortion if it cools unevenly, but that isn't a problem with sheet stock like this. It's surprising how easy annealed brass will bend, to a point. As soon as it work hardens it just stops moving. For the thicker copper endcaps for the boiler it will take several heatings and bendings to get the cap shape, since it needs to reform more, not just bend.

That's one of the amazing things I learned about metal.

I like this forum. Great explanations and help.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 21, 2017, 12:00:36 AM
After being gone for a couple of weeks, I'm now caught up.  Lots of progress.
Thanks! And welcome back!

Yeah, quenching brass or copper doesn't change anything but how fast it gets cool, not like with steel. On a large complex part it could cause distortion if it cools unevenly, but that isn't a problem with sheet stock like this. It's surprising how easy annealed brass will bend, to a point. As soon as it work hardens it just stops moving. For the thicker copper endcaps for the boiler it will take several heatings and bendings to get the cap shape, since it needs to reform more, not just bend.

That's one of the amazing things I learned about metal.

I like this forum. Great explanations and help.
I have learned a ton of stuff here!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 21, 2017, 12:06:12 AM
After a good nap, some good food, another nap, and some time reading, felt recharged enough to finish drilling the rivet and mounting bolt holes in the firebox shell. Its ready for riveting together and for the rows of faux staybolts (both will be same rivets). The ones to hold it together are too close to the edge for the riveting tool, I think, so they may need to be hammered in. The rest will use the tool, made like Florians wonderful post last fall.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ktjcrzg93/IMG_9457.jpg)
The shell seems to be stiff enough that I dont need to add any more bracing on the inside, will know for sure once the corners are riveted up. If it needs it, I can add some bars to one or two of the horizontal rows.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 21, 2017, 12:19:54 AM
Great stuff Chris. Sorry to hear you were down with a cold, hope you are feeling better.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 21, 2017, 12:23:30 AM
Great stuff Chris. Sorry to hear you were down with a cold, hope you are feeling better.---Brian
Thanks Brian! I was worried when it first hit with such severity, but it has receeded remarkably quickly. Maybe the shop elves put some magic into that last batch of the cookies...!  Feeling much better now, just need to get the full strength back again.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 21, 2017, 01:48:11 AM
Great stuff Chris. Sorry to hear you were down with a cold, hope you are feeling better.---Brian
Thanks Brian! I was worried when it first hit with such severity, but it has receeded remarkably quickly. Maybe the shop elves put some magic into that last batch of the cookies...!  Feeling much better now, just need to get the full strength back again.

I would wish for half your strength.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 21, 2017, 03:20:27 AM
Great stuff Chris. Sorry to hear you were down with a cold, hope you are feeling better.---Brian
Thanks Brian! I was worried when it first hit with such severity, but it has receeded remarkably quickly. Maybe the shop elves put some magic into that last batch of the cookies...!  Feeling much better now, just need to get the full strength back again.

I would wish for half your strength.
At least I don't get big and green when angry! Way too hard on the clothes.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 21, 2017, 04:33:28 PM
With all the drilling done, time to get the rivets themselves in. The ones I am using are 1/16" shank brass round head rivets. They come in several lengths, whatever length they come is never the length you need, so I usually get the longer ones and use a small end cutter to trim them to length.

I am putting in the ones in the fields of the plates first, since it makes them easier to handle, then will do the corner attachment ones last. For the ones nearest the corner, the riveting tool is too big, so they were done on the edge of a small anvil with a hammer - just needed a few hits to flare the bottom end and make it hold.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rzfp86epz/IMG_9458.jpg)
For the rest, I switched over to the forming tool like Florian showed in another build - it does a very quick job, and puts a nice round end on both ends of the rivets while drawing them up tight. It does take a few tries to learn how long to cut them to, but once that is figured out its easy to do full rows at a time. I showed this earlier on in the build:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/m3sc2mm13/IMG_8515.jpg)
Here is the first plate half done:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5owfly6tj/IMG_9464.jpg)
I am going to leave one rivet open at the front upper corners to use to attach a strap over the top of the boiler tube. That strap will be hidden by the saddle tank over the top of the boiler.

Lots more to go...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Dan Rowe on February 21, 2017, 04:49:35 PM
It does take a few tries to learn how long to cut them to

My rule of thumb is 1.5 times the rivet shank diameter, which would be 3/32. I drill a hole in a scrap piece of stock to make a cutting guide. How close does this match what you are doing?

Dan
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 21, 2017, 04:56:49 PM
It does take a few tries to learn how long to cut them to

My rule of thumb is 1.5 times the rivet shank diameter, which would be 3/32. I drill a hole in a scrap piece of stock to make a cutting guide. How close does this match what you are doing?

Dan
If you mean 1.5x the shank diameter sticking out the other side of the stock, that sounds about right. A lot depends on the size of the hollow in the end of the forming tool. For mine, I think I am going a little longer than that, and leaving a broader head on the inside. I would say 1.5 to 2x would be a good range. For hammering it over, I tend to go a little shorter. Once I got the length figured out I just started snipping them off by eye, the exact length is not that critical.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Dan Rowe on February 21, 2017, 05:08:15 PM
Chris,
I make the dies match the factory head with a slight bit sticking out so the die does not make a mark on the plates.
Here is the formula for set allowance for British practice:
http://www.sapphireproducts.co.uk/641t1.htm

I just rounded S=1.429D to S=1.5D.

Dan
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 21, 2017, 05:46:19 PM
Chris,
I make the dies match the factory head with a slight bit sticking out so the die does not make a mark on the plates.
Here is the formula for set allowance for British practice:
http://www.sapphireproducts.co.uk/641t1.htm (http://www.sapphireproducts.co.uk/641t1.htm)

I just rounded S=1.429D to S=1.5D.

Dan
Great diagram - thanks!  After doing another batch, I am coming down to that 1.5x mark. Longer and it tends to push off to one side, shorter and it doesnt leave a full round.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 21, 2017, 05:48:39 PM
Got the first side and end plates done up, and joined together:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ytz6pcm4n/IMG_9465.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Johnmcc69 on February 21, 2017, 08:47:33 PM
Just beautiful work Chris! I'm learning a lot just from your posts & everybody's input.

 What a great build & documentation!

 John
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on February 21, 2017, 10:28:39 PM
Just down right awesome Dog! Your making me envious of your work........ :praise2:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 21, 2017, 10:35:32 PM
Thanks guys! This build is a lot of fun, gotten to the point where every part is really changing the appearance. I got the other panels done on the firebox, more pics tomorrow.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on February 22, 2017, 12:06:12 AM
Looks great Chris, I admire your patience with all those rivets too!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 22, 2017, 02:00:37 AM
Looks great Chris, I admire your patience with all those rivets too!!

Bill
With the rivet tool they only took a couple hours, and look great. Good practice for the saddle tank, all the seams are riveted. Going to make the flanges wider so I can use the tool up to the corners.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 22, 2017, 04:20:27 PM
I got the other sides riveted up last night, only difference from doing the first sides was that for the final seams, a bar was held in the vise to rivet against:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5ti9w11jb/IMG_9466.jpg)
I got lucky here this week, the weather has been unusually warm for this time of year, we are in the upper 60s heading for 70s, so I took all the recent parts outside for some paint rather than stinking up the house. Here is how its all looking now:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ghm0uvbif/IMG_9468.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/nm3u3wirr/IMG_9469.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/uqlncxq13/IMG_9470.jpg)

And to show a bit of where it is going, I set the raw boiler tube on top for a look. The front end is roughly where the front of the smokebox will be, and obviously it has not been cut to length, so it is hanging out over the back of the firebox quite a ways, but you get the idea. Half the firebox gets covered by the cab, and the top of the boiler by the saddle tank later on.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/oe6i33myv/IMG_9471.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/96qiiqv47/IMG_9472.jpg)

If the stock for the front boiler support does not show up, I am going to start on the steering wheel next.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 22, 2017, 04:35:15 PM
Wow Chris............what a difference a little paint makes! This bad boy is starting to get some bulk.

As a side note, that "Dust Deputy" in the background looks interesting. What kind of vacuum do you have it hooked to? Does it separate out swarf before it goes to your vacuum?

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 22, 2017, 06:14:24 PM
Wow Chris............what a difference a little paint makes! This bad boy is starting to get some bulk.

As a side note, that "Dust Deputy" in the background looks interesting. What kind of vacuum do you have it hooked to? Does it separate out swarf before it goes to your vacuum?

Jim


Those Dust Deputy attachments are great. You put it on a 5 gallon bucket with a rim of plywood to stiffen the lid, and hang it on the side of a shop vac. I have a small 5 gallon vac. It seperates out all the dust and swarf, nearly nothing makes it to the vac anymore, except for the occasional bit of paper. Pop the lid and you can dump the bucket, the shopvac filter stays clean so it doesn't bog down. I use the same setup in my wood shop, same results there too, all the fine dust to big chunks separate out before the vacuum. With the vac and bucket on a set of wheels it all moves together. These work much better than the older lid type ones, same principle as the dyson vacs, just much much bigger cyclone unit.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on February 22, 2017, 08:39:57 PM
Hmmmm ... looks like that puppy will be on the road in a couple of weeks!

Tom
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 22, 2017, 09:31:37 PM
Wow Chris............what a difference a little paint makes! This bad boy is starting to get some bulk.

As a side note, that "Dust Deputy" in the background looks interesting. What kind of vacuum do you have it hooked to? Does it separate out swarf before it goes to your vacuum?

Jim




Those Dust Deputy attachments are great. You put it on a 5 gallon bucket with a rim of plywood to stiffen the lid, and hang it on the side of a shop vac. I have a small 5 gallon vac. It seperates out all the dust and swarf, nearly nothing makes it to the vac anymore, except for the occasional bit of paper. Pop the lid and you can dump the bucket, the shopvac filter stays clean so it doesn't bog down. I use the same setup in my wood shop, same results there too, all the fine dust to big chunks separate out before the vacuum. With the vac and bucket on a set of wheels it all moves together. These work much better than the older lid type ones, same principle as the dyson vacs, just much much bigger cyclone unit.

Thanks for the info, Chris. I'm going to look into getting one. l've been hesitant to vacuum up swarf and then have to deal with it in the vacuum filter. Sounds like one would take care of that issue.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 22, 2017, 10:14:01 PM
Wow Chris............what a difference a little paint makes! This bad boy is starting to get some bulk.

As a side note, that "Dust Deputy" in the background looks interesting. What kind of vacuum do you have it hooked to? Does it separate out swarf before it goes to your vacuum?

Jim




Those Dust Deputy attachments are great. You put it on a 5 gallon bucket with a rim of plywood to stiffen the lid, and hang it on the side of a shop vac. I have a small 5 gallon vac. It seperates out all the dust and swarf, nearly nothing makes it to the vac anymore, except for the occasional bit of paper. Pop the lid and you can dump the bucket, the shopvac filter stays clean so it doesn't bog down. I use the same setup in my wood shop, same results there too, all the fine dust to big chunks separate out before the vacuum. With the vac and bucket on a set of wheels it all moves together. These work much better than the older lid type ones, same principle as the dyson vacs, just much much bigger cyclone unit.

Thanks for the info, Chris. I'm going to look into getting one. l've been hesitant to vacuum up swarf and then have to deal with it in the vacuum filter. Sounds like one would take care of that issue.
I've been very happy with it - like you say, it solves the swarf-in-the-filter issues, and works very well. Only issue I've had is if I make the mistake of trying to vacuum up the long twisty shavings, they clog the vac hose itself.

They make a couple versions of these things, a cheaper plastic one and a heavier duty metal one. I have one of each, the metal one is up in the wood shop - went with it figuring that I would swing a long heavy board into the plastic one and break it someday. Both are identical in shape and function. They also make a larger version for big commercial shops with a bigger vac system. Also, they offer the buckets, but you can get them real cheap at the home center. Get two buckets, bolt one to the side of the vac, and use it as a holster to hold the other one. A plywood ring to stiffen the lid of the bucket helps a lot, keeps it from getting sucked inside the bucket.

I use a standard shopvac hose set with them, with the large crevice tool on the end to suck up chips around the machines. Oh, and if cutting steel, let the chips cool a few minutes first so you dont melt them into the plastic!! Naturally, all the manufacturers have changed their hose sizes just that little bit so they dont fit each other, you can always take a wrap of duct tape on narrow ends to make them hold.

You can buy them from a catalog place like Woodcraft, or direct from the maker. Search for the name, they have a website. Check around first, the prices vary a LOT. Some places charge crazy prices. Even at best, not cheap for a molded piece of plastic, but it works really well, I've had them for 10 or 15 years with no problems.

For the record - I have no connection to them at all (wish I had invented the thing!). Just a happy user.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 22, 2017, 10:16:16 PM
Hmmmm ... looks like that puppy will be on the road in a couple of weeks!

Tom
Yup, probably THIS weekend.

When I take it over to show my mother the progress, that is!

 :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 22, 2017, 10:29:33 PM
After a couple hours outisde on the front porch in the rocker, reading (it was near 70 today, February in upstate NY, go figure!), I finally went in and made the steering wheel. After way more time trying to decide how to make it than it took to make the silly thing, I decided to try turning and milling the wheel as one piece rather than coming up with a way to solder it. So, started with a chunk of bar stock, and turned it to 1.25" with a small hub, and used the parting tool to back cut the thickness of the rim while it was still solid. I used a file to round the corners on the rim.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/c2csh3dvr/IMG_9477.jpg)
Then over to the rotary table, and milled out the spokes with a 1/8" end mill.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/sre8d0ah3/IMG_9478.jpg)
and after hacksawing it off the bar (did not trust the parting tool on the thin spokes with interrupted cuts), held it in the lathe by the hub to clean up and detail the top side
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ivd5dd4p3/IMG_9481.jpg)
then a couple minutes with a rounded file to knock off the corners of the spokes, it was ready for a test fit on the steering shaft:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/52yqhqdxj/IMG_9483.jpg)
All looks good, so a bit of paint and some loctite to hold it in place comes next. The steering shaft is free to lift out of the lower bracket, which will make it easy to remove it when opening the front cover on the boiler. This is needed, since lighting the butane burner in the boiler is much simpler if the front inspection cover is swung open.

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 22, 2017, 10:57:10 PM
After finishing up in the shop, looked out front and the steel I was waiting for to make the boiler support was there, so that is back on for tomorrow!


Oh boy oh boy....   :cartwheel:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 22, 2017, 11:11:34 PM
The steering wheel came out great, Chris. You're getting this spoke business down pat!

Now it just needs a Betty Grable steering knob! Well maybe not.............the Lombard was a little before her time.  :shrug:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 22, 2017, 11:17:57 PM
The steering wheel came out great, Chris. You're getting this spoke business down pat!

Now it just needs a Betty Grable steering knob! Well maybe not.............the Lombard was a little before her time.  :shrug:

Jim
And a Charlie Chaplin one wouldn't be the same!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 22, 2017, 11:27:18 PM
Geesh. I read a bunch of posts from you...and then just minutes later (it seems) there's another set.

Very nice looking steering wheel.  :ThumbsUp:

Are your elves chaffing to drive the thing?
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 23, 2017, 02:13:06 AM
Geesh. I read a bunch of posts from you...and then just minutes later (it seems) there's another set.

Very nice looking steering wheel.  :ThumbsUp:

Are your elves chaffing to drive the thing?
They don't let me drive theirs, thats why I have to build one for myself!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on February 23, 2017, 02:23:19 AM
The family shot = speechless.

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 24, 2017, 09:22:38 PM
And its time for some serious stainless steel whittling! The boiler front bracket is next. Its been a while since I drew it, here it is again:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/eu8dfqcqv/Boiler_Front_Bracket_v6.jpg)
I decided to make it from three pieces - two uprights, and the crossbar, silver soldered together. Each will be machined as far as possible before joining, to keep it simpler to hold in the vise. The crossbar will have some half-laps at the ends so I can screw it to the uprights for soldering. At least thats the theory, we'll see how it goes!
To start, I took some narrow bar and milled two of the corners in to form it into a T:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/cikohoefb/IMG_9486.jpg)
and then came back and put a 3/8" long notch in, to form the half-lap joint at each end. The center rib will get drilled later for the screws to hold it to the uprights for soldering.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/nkprg48hz/IMG_9489.jpg)
With that done, I laid out the outlines of the uprights on some 1/2"x1" bar stock.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/lvgo81ssn/IMG_9491.jpg)
The bar is long enough to leave uncut material in the middle, so I can hold the ends for milling.
The next step was to recip-saw out the bulk of the material in the ends. I figured it would make the bar bend to take that much off of one side, and it did.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/szyhh301z/IMG_9492.jpg)
That is with the straighedge held down the uncut, formerly straight, side, the light gap is clearly visible. As near as I could measure, just that short cut made the ends each curl over by 0.015". This was annealed 303 stainless, but it had not been heat treated to stress relieve it, so the internal stresses put into the metal when it was rolled out at the factory caused the curve. Not a lot, but something to be aware of.
So, the next step was to clean up the inside of the cut on the mill,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xzvxp15on/IMG_9494.jpg)
and then I took a light pass on the outside to take it back to level with the rest of the bar, so I could measure in for the final thickness. I set the mill to just touch at the start of the curved area, and ran it out to the end, could see it taking a deeper cut farther out. When done, nice and straight again.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/y1agw6ww7/IMG_9495.jpg)
So, back to taking the inside back to final dimension,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5cxisyupz/IMG_9496.jpg)
and then notching the ends for where they fit over the frame rails.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/pycakvcav/IMG_9497.jpg)
and notching the inner end for the mating half of the joint to the crossbar
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dkzgdymmf/IMG_9499.jpg)
Here is the crossbar held to where it will go:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/q0w67pfyf/IMG_9500.jpg)
With the main profile of the legs shaped, it was time to start notching in the sides from both sides - the cross section of the bracket is a large T shape everywhere.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/lg9zsrw93/IMG_9502.jpg)
and same from the other side
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bk8wt4qh3/IMG_9503.jpg)
and then the wider area above the frames
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xxgnfxrev/IMG_9504.jpg)
Here are the parts so far
(https://s5.postimg.cc/836uq5rev/IMG_9506.jpg)
and how it will fit to the frame rail
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4xm8zy8sn/IMG_9508.jpg)
Next will be to do that area just above the crossbar. The curved section at the very top where it fits to the boiler will be done with the part held onto a plate on the rotary table. But, thats enough for one day, time to go get a cookie and relax...

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 24, 2017, 11:45:49 PM
Got a guy at work interested in Sherlines.
He couldn't believe what was available and their size.

But he doesn't believe me when I say, "Yes. They can carve steel".

(I didn't tell him that 'They' are elves.)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 25, 2017, 12:00:27 AM
Got a guy at work interested in Sherlines.
He couldn't believe what was available and their size.

But he doesn't believe me when I say, "Yes. They can carve steel".

(I didn't tell him that 'They' are elves.)
Well, show him the pics from this build, should be proof that the sherline can cut steel just fine! Maybe not in as deep a cut as quickly as a full size Bridgeport, but it gets there!


And yes, I must be an elf. From a long line of them from Thuringen and elsewhere. Only related to the silly Keebler ones in that we like cookies, but ours are naturally better!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on February 25, 2017, 06:00:21 AM
That's a very sharp looking steering wheel Chris!  Are you going to add a knob? (with our without Betty Grable? :))

And all your fab work on the boiler bracket is looking mighty fine too!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 25, 2017, 02:01:15 PM
That's a very sharp looking steering wheel Chris!  Are you going to add a knob? (with our without Betty Grable? :) )

And all your fab work on the boiler bracket is looking mighty fine too!
Kim
I looked at a bunch of vintage pictures of these, no sign of knobs on any of the steering wheel rims. Not even any Babe The Blue Ox figures from the rear view mirrors!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 25, 2017, 03:58:32 PM
That's a very sharp looking steering wheel Chris!  Are you going to add a knob? (with our without Betty Grable? :) )

And all your fab work on the boiler bracket is looking mighty fine too!
Kim
I looked at a bunch of vintage pictures of these, no sign of knobs on any of the steering wheel rims. Not even any Babe The Blue Ox figures from the rear view mirrors!

One of your posted videos of running the restored Lombard shows two guys reefing on that steering wheel. No steering knobs for them.  Must of been a real bear to steering that thing.

Good work on that frame. I like how you will bolt it together for silver soldering. Filed that one away.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on February 25, 2017, 06:01:10 PM
But, thats enough for one day, time to go get a cookie and relax...

Must be a lot of energy in those cookies Chris with this non stop work. I am thinking you must of worked for Santa at one time or another seeing as how you don't come up for air very often..... :lolb:
But hey Dog the work is great and following your work is remarkable....

Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 25, 2017, 07:16:14 PM
That's a very sharp looking steering wheel Chris!  Are you going to add a knob? (with our without Betty Grable? :) )

And all your fab work on the boiler bracket is looking mighty fine too!
Kim
I looked at a bunch of vintage pictures of these, no sign of knobs on any of the steering wheel rims. Not even any Babe The Blue Ox figures from the rear view mirrors!

One of your posted videos of running the restored Lombard shows two guys reefing on that steering wheel. No steering knobs for them.  Must of been a real bear to steering that thing.

Good work on that frame. I like how you will bolt it together for silver soldering. Filed that one away.

Jim
From the stories I've heard/seen, it was the worst in fresh snow, better when they were in a iced track. The steering wheel has a pretty good gear reduction to it, but there is still an awful lot of weight from the front of the machine on the skids. I saw pics from the museum when they had a truck scale under the front axle. With an empty boiler, it was over a ton on the front axle. Gotta be a lot more with a full load of water in the boiler and the saddle tank. The whole machine loaded up was something like 30 tons.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 25, 2017, 07:18:53 PM
But, thats enough for one day, time to go get a cookie and relax...

Must be a lot of energy in those cookies Chris with this non stop work. I am thinking you must of worked for Santa at one time or another seeing as how you don't come up for air very often..... :lolb:
But hey Dog the work is great and following your work is remarkable....

Don
Yeah, well, mentioned that on an earlier post, used to work at North Pole Inc., till the ... um, incident ... big food fight in the elf cafeteria, a bloody nosed reindeer, bad things written on the toys, some jokes about a big fat boss, you know how it goes...   :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 26, 2017, 12:45:18 AM
Got some more whittling done on the boiler bracket. Started out by continuing on at the upper half, drilling out the inner curve and milling the recess
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9ej7cdcef/IMG_9509.jpg)
and continuing on around the outsides
(https://s5.postimg.cc/nm8w10p3b/IMG_9510.jpg)
After doing as much milling as possible, I sawed the uprights out from the longer bar, leaving the curved section a little thick
(https://s5.postimg.cc/45o6ehtzb/IMG_9511.jpg)
and then drilling the mount holes to the frame rails
(https://s5.postimg.cc/d1yyifklj/IMG_9512.jpg)
and clamping the crossbar in place to drill and tap it for some 2-56 screws, starting with a long center drill to spot the location
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wl3jrsjd3/IMG_9513.jpg)
and then the tap drill. The holes were tapped with the bar still clamped in place, no clearance drilling, since the parts are so thin I just tapped right on through the joint.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/pja7jc553/IMG_9514.jpg)
at which point it was ready for some screws and then silver soldering
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8k1942txj/IMG_9517.jpg)
After soldering, the screws were milled off flush
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5r81k1tl3/IMG_9519.jpg)
The last milling operation is to round the curved sections at the top to fit the boiler tube. This part is way too large to spin on the Sherline faceplate, so I bolted a thick piece of plywood to a faceplate and mounted it up on the rotary table. After some layout lines, careful measuring, and clamping in place, it was ready to mill.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9ovb9ggef/IMG_9520.jpg)
Several light passes, and the inner faces were done. Then moved out and took the outer edges of the pads to shape as well.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/om3sagtmv/IMG_9521.jpg)
Then a couple holes for the mounting bolts into the firebox,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/438w5efpj/IMG_9522.jpg)
and its ready for paint!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/zbhh2q5fr/IMG_9523.jpg)
The tops of the firebox need a few tweaks to get everything to lay in smooth, but pretty good fit overall.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xkyg18nwn/IMG_9524.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/q6948v213/IMG_9525.jpg)
A bit of paint and the bracket can be bolted on to the frame for real.
Next, I need to take some time to 3D model up the differential unit, and also get started on the engine layout. Fortunately for the engine itself, I have copies of profile drawings from the University from when they rebuilt the real one, so I can get a lot of detail measurements from there. The differential is an interesting beast, laid out differently from a modern car one in that the drive comes in from an upper gear, driving a larger lower gear with four bevel gears held within it to drive the output shafts. The lower gear is held in place by bearings on the output shafts.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/p369xiqpz/DSC_3539.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/ckpogxtqf/lombard6.jpg)
frame to hold bevel gears:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fg2rnsxqf/DSC_1914.jpg)
half output shaft for one side
(https://s5.postimg.cc/x7ee29d53/DSC_2118.jpg)




Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 26, 2017, 02:24:45 AM
Chris...being American, you do know that we learn best by making boo-boos. I haven't seen a boo-boo from you for a long while...if ever.
 ;D

BTW...in one of your shots is a shelf with a bunch of little itty-bitty things on it. You know the question.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on February 26, 2017, 02:30:10 AM
Brilliant work on the braket Chris.

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 26, 2017, 02:37:33 AM
Chris...being American, you do know that we learn best by making boo-boos. I haven't seen a boo-boo from you for a long while...if ever.
 ;D

BTW...in one of your shots is a shelf with a bunch of little itty-bitty things on it. You know the question.
I don't do boo boos. I do major brain farts! Most hit the scrap box or the trash can before the camera can focus. Most recent were te botched spokes on steering wheel, remade with new part. Also blew it on first front wheel.


As for little stuff in pic, which one? Most shelves in the room are like that!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on February 26, 2017, 03:11:21 AM
That boiler support is a very intricate part Chris, you make it look easy!! Nicely done.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 26, 2017, 03:45:38 AM
I like that support Chris. Definitely looks like a cast piece.

Great explanation on the differential..................not if I only understood it.  :Doh: Couple more times through and I'd should have it.

When you did the 3D drawing of the frame, does that give you all the pertinent measurements?

Jim

PS: I saw that same shelf as Zee and wondered the same thing. I don't know if others do it, but I always look in the background of pictures to see what I can see. Obviously Zee does.  ;)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 26, 2017, 04:05:06 AM
I think you guys must be looking at the upper shelf on the wall behind the boiler tube? If so, that is a row of miniature scrimshaw pieces, all fossilized walrus tooth sections. Those were all done by the wonderful artist William Carrera. I collected those years ago, also commissioned him to do scenes on a pair of full length walrus tusks I had. I used his work to learn scrimshaw techniques to do on my own collection of whales teeth (all legally collected before the ban went into place!) I haven't done any new scrimshaw in about 10 years, still have about a dozen teeth left to do.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 26, 2017, 04:07:31 AM
Oh, and yes, the 3d drawings give me the dimensions of all the parts. When I get the differential parts drawn, I will post some exploded views. Another simple but elegant mechanism. I was surprised how far back the diff mechanism goes.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 26, 2017, 08:24:17 PM
Today was a 3D modelling day - started in on the differential. I spent some time working out the number of teeth on the various gears to make it work out with the gear cutter sets I have, the spacing needed for the upper/lower shafts, and the space available inside/under the frame. I wound up increasing the gear ration slightly from the original machine, which is fine for a small model that I dont want to have run too fast given that the small engines seem to like running a little faster than the originals.

So, here is what I wound up with:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rgyhyd43r/Differential_v5.jpg)
The top blue gear (23 teeth, module 1) will sit in the middle of the crankshaft, drivien by the engines. The large orange bottom spur gear (72 teeth, module 1), forms the shell of the differential itself. The four teal inner bevel gears (24 tooth, module 0.7) ride on shafts in a plate held inside the large spur gear, and drive the light green output bevel gears (60 tooth, module 0.7) on either side. The light green output shafts will be held in bearing block sets on either side, and hold the drive chain spur gears at the outer ends.
To support the orange spur gear, the blue center plate has a shaft sticking out either side that rides in holes in the inner ends of the green shaft.
Now, here are some cutaway views:
The first shows the green bevel gear and output shaft on one side removed, so you can see the blue center plate and its axle.The orange spur gear has a rim on one side that the plate is bolted to. The plate slides in from the other side of the gear. The output shafts bear on the hub of the center plate to keep it centered.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rgyhyd43r/Differential_v5.jpg)
The second view shows the center plate removed as well
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rgyhyd43r/Differential_v5.jpg)
which shows the four bevel gears and the axles they ride on. The bevel gear axles do not go into the center hub, they stop just short inside the central plate.

Now, if you are familiar with how a car's differential works, this should be familiar. As the blue top gear turns, the orange gear and its contents also get turned. If the forces on both tracks are the same, then the bevel gears do nothing, and the output shafts both turn together.
In a turn, say to the left, the left output shaft needs to turn slower and the right shaft faster. The freewheeling small bevel gears turn, so that the output shafts can turn at different rates.   

Hard to describe from a static drawing, If you go to this web site, it has some very good animations of the same basic mechanism. The only difference is that instead of a pair of spur gears, the input gear is another bevel gear set, but the inner gearing is the same.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/differential2.htm (http://auto.howstuffworks.com/differential2.htm)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 27, 2017, 11:45:49 PM
Some more work on the 3D model today, laying out the support frame and bearings for the differential unit. Here is the rendering of the frame/bearings,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rgyhyd43r/Differential_v5.jpg)
and the unit with the engine beds, which it bolts to.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/b2a87g2iv/Engine_Bed_v58.jpg)
The final unit will also have a sheet metal cover over the differential gears (though it seems a shame to cover up all that work!).

That should be enough to get started on making the parts, will intermix that with the 3D model of the engine itself...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on February 28, 2017, 12:40:26 AM
Oh boy, oh boy! We get to see you make bevel gears... :popcorn:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 28, 2017, 01:09:46 AM
Oh boy, oh boy! We get to see you make bevel gears... :popcorn:

Pete
Again!   :o


Not my first set, made them for the Shay build. With the extra passes needed, they are like making the same gear three times, three times the chances to bungle something!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 28, 2017, 03:11:29 AM
Nice drawings and good explanation, Chris. Looking forward to seeing this come together. Pretty involved project.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 28, 2017, 03:16:24 AM
Thanks Jim,  I did take some time to make that y axis lock you sent the link for, works amazingly well! The stock one was more of a y axis slower downer than a lock.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: mike mott on February 28, 2017, 04:30:46 AM
Hi Chris I'm on Page 5 amazing work, the ship model is wonderful too, I suppose you are familiar with MSW http://modelshipworld.com/ (http://modelshipworld.com/)
and the wonderful build logs there of some remarkable ship models.

The track parts are very nice I cannot recall reading about the cutting of the slots depth of cut or feed info. Did you cut each slot in 1 cut or were there a number of passes in and out for each slot? I know this is way past , But I just started your log.

Mike
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 28, 2017, 01:22:41 PM
Hi Chris I'm on Page 5 amazing work, the ship model is wonderful too, I suppose you are familiar with MSW http://modelshipworld.com/ (http://modelshipworld.com/)
and the wonderful build logs there of some remarkable ship models.

The track parts are very nice I cannot recall reading about the cutting of the slots depth of cut or feed info. Did you cut each slot in 1 cut or were there a number of passes in and out for each slot? I know this is way past , But I just started your log.

Mike
Hi Mike!

I used to subscribe to the NRG's journal many years ago (in the pre-internet days), but I had not seen their forums - will have to go check them out! Thanks for the link.

For the slots in the tracks, those  were cut in one pass, done by hand so I can't give feed rates, just done by feel with a few drops of oil on the metal for each cut. That is why I had them laid flat for cutting the slots and came back to square up the bottoms of the slots, rather than vertical to do it in one go, or the 1/8" end mill would have flexed and heated up too much. The 303 stainless cuts nice and easily with a fresh sharp cutter, which helps a lot, another stainless alloy would not have worked out so well.

Chris
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: mike mott on February 28, 2017, 04:36:34 PM
Thank for the information on the cutting Chris. I will be continuing through the pages some more today.

The NRG forum is the best for Model ships that I have found, a lot of very good sharing of information.

Mike
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: mike mott on February 28, 2017, 05:49:57 PM
Got to page 15
Wow you work on the small lathe and mill certainly show what can be done. Your comments about taking breaks when doing repetitive work made me smile.
The tracks turned out very nicely, I shall have to try out some 303 stainless it looks like a nice material to use.

Nice beginning on the sprockets.

Mike
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 28, 2017, 11:17:01 PM
I've cruised NRG from time to time.

Hey Chris...any thoughts on how to do an 18th century hull in metal.  ;D
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 28, 2017, 11:20:11 PM
I've cruised NRG from time to time.

Hey Chris...any thoughts on how to do an 18th century hull in metal.  ;D
Sure!

Start with wood. They were not making metal ship hulls in the 1700s!

Or, rig up some CNC in that shiny new shop of yours!  Actually, I have seen some incredible ship models done in all silver. So, start with a 20 year apprenticeship with a silversmith...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 28, 2017, 11:24:24 PM
I've cruised NRG from time to time.

Hey Chris...any thoughts on how to do an 18th century hull in metal.  ;D
Sure!

Start with wood. They were not making metal ship hulls in the 1700s!

No help. No help at all.  :cussing:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 28, 2017, 11:28:48 PM
I've cruised NRG from time to time.

Hey Chris...any thoughts on how to do an 18th century hull in metal.  ;D
Sure!

Start with wood. They were not making metal ship hulls in the 1700s!

No help. No help at all.  :cussing:
None whatsoever.

How about gold leaf over wood? The outside would be metal...

Closest I ever got to making a metal boat was the bowl I made in a copper working class - looks a little like a welsh coracle. Think thats the right word - the little round boats.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 28, 2017, 11:31:28 PM
Got to page 15
Wow you work on the small lathe and mill certainly show what can be done. Your comments about taking breaks when doing repetitive work made me smile.
The tracks turned out very nicely, I shall have to try out some 303 stainless it looks like a nice material to use.

Nice beginning on the sprockets.

Mike
The 303 is very nice stuff - works sort of like brass, though not as quick a cut. Takes a nice finish, silver solders well, though I read it does not weld well, but I dont have a welding setup so no problem there. Much easier to work than some of the other alloys. I detest 304 stainless, though the one piece I tried might have been mislabeled.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: mike mott on March 01, 2017, 06:10:30 AM
Quote
Hey Chris...any thoughts on how to do an 18th century hull in metal.

Check out Gerald Wingroves stuff
http://www.wworkshop.net/Falls_of_Clyde/Menu.html (http://www.wworkshop.net/Falls_of_Clyde/Menu.html)

Thanks for the heads up on the 303 Chris I shall have to try some.

Mike

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 01, 2017, 01:09:10 PM
Quote
Hey Chris...any thoughts on how to do an 18th century hull in metal.

Check out Gerald Wingroves stuff
http://www.wworkshop.net/Falls_of_Clyde/Menu.html (http://www.wworkshop.net/Falls_of_Clyde/Menu.html)

Thanks for the heads up on the 303 Chris I shall have to try some.

Mike
Wow - that is some serious work on the Clyde model!

There you go Zee, step by step of a metal hull. First project for the new shop?

As for the Lombard, I am planning on starting the differential today...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 01, 2017, 10:30:24 PM
Time to get started on cutting metal for the differential unit. As you can see from the rendering, it has a central plate that holds the outer gear ring in place. The plate is made separate so that the four bevel gear axles can be drilled down through the rim.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rgyhyd43r/Differential_v5.jpg)
To start out, I cut two sections off some larger flat bar stock, the inner plate out of some .200" thick bar, and the gear blank from some .375" stock. A half inch hole was bored in each to take an axle - the one for the gear rim is just there till the gear is milled, then the center will be cut away.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3q036je9z/IMG_9527.jpg)
After boring, a length of 1/2" round bar was silver soldered into each plate, and then set up on the rotary table to take off enough of the corners that it would spin on the lathe without hitting the bed.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/pqgfn5wxz/IMG_9528.jpg)
Then centered up on the lathe, ready to turn the blanks down to size
(https://s5.postimg.cc/efdrysq2v/IMG_9529.jpg)
First turned down the smaller center plate to diameter and trued up the sides:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/x8zkvsoav/IMG_9530.jpg)
then likewise with the gear plate
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9w1jda87b/IMG_9531.jpg)
The recess on one side was turned in - this side is a shallow recess to form one side of the wall that the center plate sits against.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/certrpjbb/IMG_9532.jpg)
then the other side was trued up, and the deeper recess turned in on that side. This side will take the center plate. Note that the hub area is not turned down all the way, that will get cut away later so it is not important how deep that section is.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6rvgu8gsn/IMG_9533.jpg)
And then back over to the mill once again to drill the mount holes that will hold the center plate into the gear rim. I wanted to drill both plates with one setup to ensure that the holes matched up. First the holes drilled/tapped in the center plate edge,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5qv853zt3/IMG_9535.jpg)
then the clearance holes in the gear rim were drilled
(https://s5.postimg.cc/p9ztegykn/IMG_9536.jpg)
At this point, everything is ready to set up the mill for gear cutting - the rotary table will go up vertical, like it was cutting the teeth for the steering gear parts. Not today though, I want to come at the gear cutting fresh to avoid the dreaded tired-brain brain-farts!


Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on March 01, 2017, 11:53:35 PM
Those will be some nice parts! I do like your logical thinking in developing a sequence. It shows in all your work and, I think, is why you are so successful in making things.

This Lombard thing is sooooo neat!!!

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 02, 2017, 12:25:02 AM
Quote
Hey Chris...any thoughts on how to do an 18th century hull in metal.

Check out Gerald Wingroves stuff
http://www.wworkshop.net/Falls_of_Clyde/Menu.html (http://www.wworkshop.net/Falls_of_Clyde/Menu.html)

Thanks for the heads up on the 303 Chris I shall have to try some.

Mike

Wow - that is some serious work on the Clyde model!

There you go Zee, step by step of a metal hull. First project for the new shop?

As for the Lombard, I am planning on starting the differential today...

Won't be first project in the new shop...but wow. Nice site. Thanks Mike!!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 02, 2017, 02:14:04 AM
Those will be some nice parts! I do like your logical thinking in developing a sequence. It shows in all your work and, I think, is why you are so successful in making things.

This Lombard thing is sooooo neat!!!

Pete
Thanks Pete! Making parts from bar stock that would have been castings can be a challenge, but fun!


So glad that the Lombard came up in another thread last fall, was perfect timing for me, had been looking for something unusual for a while.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 02, 2017, 04:26:23 PM
Continuing on with the differential plates - I was going to go straight to cutting the gear teeth on the outer rim, but realized that I could use the current setup and finish the center plate first and save a setup change. So, I laid out the openings for the bevel gears and drilled corner holes for each of the four openings:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/yo67hmvpj/IMG_9537.jpg)
then came back with the end mill and did the long edges of each opening
(https://s5.postimg.cc/te18qcbgn/IMG_9538.jpg)
then angled the table and finished off the short edges
(https://s5.postimg.cc/f90129rt3/IMG_9539.jpg)
Next step on the center plate was to flip the rotary table up vertical and drill the holes for the bevel gear axles, each centered on an opening
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wasv4d6o7/IMG_9540.jpg)
and finished by turning the outer ends of the axle shaft to length and diameter
(https://s5.postimg.cc/x1lla591j/IMG_9541.jpg)
Then, back to cutting gear teeth on the outer rim. I got out my handy dandy super hi tech chunk of plywood mill table extension, and set up the rotary table on that. This extension comes out whenever I am cutting teeth on larger gears, to give the reach needed  on the Y axis of the table.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/vb2k8nrif/IMG_9542.jpg)
First few teeth cut - I am taking each of them in several passes, the tooth depth is .0894", and the rim is .375 wide, and that seemed like too much to do in one pass. This gear will be 72 teeth, so it is one full turn on the rotary table handwheel per tooth - nice and easy to keep track of.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ixpq1r1tz/IMG_9543.jpg)
So, a bunch more of these to do, and I can seperate the rim off the hub - will be cut just inside the mounting holes.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 02, 2017, 06:10:12 PM
Well, step backwards time.

I did some more cutting on the gear teeth after lunch, and ran into some problems. Most of the gears I've done till now have been in brass, this is first large one I've done in steel, and with the recesses already done in the sides of the plate, I am getting vibration and ringing in the plate when making the cuts, which is causing the shaft to move very slightly and slowly in the chuck. Big problems when cutting gear teeth!
 :Mad:    :cussing:    :hammerbash:    :rant:    :toilet_claw:

So, time to remake the rim part. I'm thinking I may try and find a large chunk of brass to make it from, given the size of the teeth it should be plenty strong for the model. I do have some 6061 aluminum that is thick enough, could make it from that as well, though soldering on an axle shaft would not work on that, though I could bolt it to a faceplate...

Rethink time!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on March 02, 2017, 06:30:17 PM
A big wad of clay around the blank will probably stop the ringing....

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 02, 2017, 07:13:18 PM
A big wad of clay around the blank will probably stop the ringing....

Pete
Interesting idea.  The first part is trash, though its good enough for experiments. I cut down a chunk of 3/8 6061 aluminum and bolted it to the faceplate, want to see how the gear cutter works on that. I will hold off on undercutting the sides though, that was a mistake on the first part, should have worked from the outside in.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 02, 2017, 10:13:41 PM
I sure hope I didn't jinx you when I commented on boo-boos (lack thereof).

But I also know that nothing stops you.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 03, 2017, 01:06:36 AM
I sure hope I didn't jinx you when I commented on boo-boos (lack thereof).

But I also know that nothing stops you.
Nope, not at all! I can't even blame it on stinking hoppies!


I got a chunk of aluminum bolted to the faceplate with a wood spacer, and 2/3rds of the teeth cut. So far so good, will see how it works when I undercut the rim to take the center plate.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on March 03, 2017, 02:52:16 AM
Well, step backwards time.

I did some more cutting on the gear teeth after lunch, and ran into some problems. Most of the gears I've done till now have been in brass, this is first large one I've done in steel, and with the recesses already done in the sides of the plate, I am getting vibration and ringing in the plate when making the cuts, which is causing the shaft to move very slightly and slowly in the chuck. Big problems when cutting gear teeth!
 :Mad:    :cussing:    :hammerbash:    :rant:    :toilet_claw:

So, time to remake the rim part. I'm thinking I may try and find a large chunk of brass to make it from, given the size of the teeth it should be plenty strong for the model. I do have some 6061 aluminum that is thick enough, could make it from that as well, though soldering on an axle shaft would not work on that, though I could bolt it to a faceplate...

Rethink time!

Well that's a bummer!  :wallbang: I wonder if this accessory would have stabilized the rim, so you wouldn't of had the vibration: http://sherline.com/product/3702-adjustable-right-angle-tailstock/ I've got one, but haven't had an occasion to use it yet.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on March 03, 2017, 05:56:32 AM
I wonder if this accessory would have stabilized the rim, so you wouldn't of had the vibration: http://sherline.com/product/3702-adjustable-right-angle-tailstock/ I've got one, but haven't had an occasion to use it yet.

I've got that accessory and it works great!  I used it when making my gears.
But then again, they were only brass.  But I found it a big help, and I think it would help for steel too.
Kim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: PJPickard on March 03, 2017, 11:26:16 AM
If you want to stick with steel try 12L14, it cuts like butter!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 03, 2017, 02:24:09 PM
I wonder if this accessory would have stabilized the rim, so you wouldn't of had the vibration: http://sherline.com/product/3702-adjustable-right-angle-tailstock/ (http://sherline.com/product/3702-adjustable-right-angle-tailstock/) I've got one, but haven't had an occasion to use it yet.

I've got that accessory and it works great!  I used it when making my gears.
But then again, they were only brass.  But I found it a big help, and I think it would help for steel too.
Kim
Probably would have helped. Maybe pick one up for next time!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 03, 2017, 07:03:19 PM
Differential main gear, take two!

I restarted the gear with a disk of 6061 aluminum cut from a 3/8" thick flat bar, and bolted it to a faceplate with a plywood spacer to give room for the gear cutter. The disc was threaded for the bolts, and nuts were added for good measure. The disk was turned to size, and mounted in the mill on the rotary table to cut the gear teeth.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ytsca9wjr/IMG_9544.jpg)
The need for the spacer shows in this picture - without it the cutter would have hit the faceplate.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/okzv4g8hz/IMG_9546.jpg)
With the center of the disc left full thickness, and the softer aluminum, there was no problem with vibration this time.   :)
After cutting the teeth, the rotary table was laid down horizontal and the inside of the rim milled out. With the bolts in place, there was not enough room for the turning tool to do this on the lathe. So, took it down to depth in several passes, then moved out to finished diameter in a few more.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ls6nkf85j/IMG_9547.jpg)
Then drilled the mounting holes to match the center plate made earlier
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6kqo02gav/IMG_9548.jpg)
and then turned the disk over to mill the shallow recess on the back side.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5whth4hl3/IMG_9549.jpg)
To seperate the waste center from the rim, I had to cut off the bolts so I could move the end mill in far enough, then ran a set of shallow cuts around the inside of the rim till it just broke through. As it came around to the final section, I pushed on the rim to ensure it would move over clear and not get flung by the cutter.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/smgya40sn/IMG_9550.jpg)
Success! I was surprised how light the finished rim was, am more used to the weight of brass or steel.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/jsq1t0dtz/IMG_9551.jpg)
Cleaned up a few burs, and did a test fit with the center plate. The center plate, in steel, will keep the rim solidly in place. The reason the center plate needs to be a separate piece is that it has the axle holes for the bevel gears - when the rim is in place, the axles are kept captive.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rmqneelmv/IMG_9552.jpg)
Here is what it looks like from the back side:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/he2rmbmyv/IMG_9553.jpg)
and showing where it will sit under the boiler between the main frame rails:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gptx3do93/IMG_9555.jpg)
I think next I'll make the smaller spur gear that will sit on the crankshaft and drive this large gear, then move on to the bevel gears.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: tvoght on March 03, 2017, 07:47:19 PM
There are certain problems that present themselves given the relative size of your project and your equipment. I am ever impressed with your ready solutions.

Lookin` good!

--Tim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 03, 2017, 08:10:35 PM
There are certain problems that present themselves given the relative size of your project and your equipment. I am ever impressed with your ready solutions.

Lookin` good!

--Tim

Thanks Tim! Always fun to push the limits...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 03, 2017, 09:11:25 PM
And the simple gear done - the gear on the crankshaft that drives the differential is a 23 tooth module 1 spur gear with a 1/2" center hole. Started with a short length of brass bar in the 4-jaw, turned the end to size, and set up on the rotary table:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tii13azuv/IMG_9559.jpg)
The brass is a joy to cut gears from, cuts nice and smooth, very clean finish. I pre-calculate the rotary table settings and make a list of positions to stop at so that there is no rounding errors to walk the gear teeth out as you go around on an odd advance like this one, which is 15.65217391... degrees per tooth.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/pnen0qgp3/IMG_9560.jpg)
After cutting all the teeth, moved the chuck back to the lathe to drill
(https://s5.postimg.cc/txtawbls7/IMG_9562.jpg)
and bore the center hole to size
(https://s5.postimg.cc/yxqr49rev/IMG_9563.jpg)
before parting it off to length
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dpd2mucxz/IMG_9564.jpg)
for a test fit with the differential ring gear
(https://s5.postimg.cc/myf8wyltz/IMG_9565.jpg)
All looks good so next time I can start on the bevel gears. These two made a good warmup for the bevels, which are a slightly more complicated process. I will be doing the bevel gear teeth with the straight tooth method from Ivan Law's book on gearcutting.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on March 03, 2017, 09:19:01 PM
Absolutely beautiful work!! Tools are no limit in your shop...

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: mike mott on March 03, 2017, 09:35:58 PM
Very nice solution and execution of the gear cutting.

Mike
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 03, 2017, 09:49:09 PM
Nicely done!  :ThumbsUp:

I'm looking forward to the bevel gear work.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 03, 2017, 10:35:00 PM
Thanks guys! It will be a couple days before I get much done on the bevel gears, bunch of other stuff this weekend, including our monthly rc boat/sub run at the local pool. In the meantime, eat cookies among yourselves...!  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on March 04, 2017, 05:42:50 AM
Beautiful gears Chris!  You make it look too easy.  :popcorn:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on March 04, 2017, 03:34:09 PM
I just got to find out what you been putting in those cookies Chris..... :lolb: got to be some good stuff Dog because you just don't stop and come up for air.... :lolb: you putting this old Coonass to shame Dog, damn that's some awesome work........ :praise2:

Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 04, 2017, 05:58:55 PM
I just got to find out what you been putting in those cookies Chris..... :lolb: got to be some good stuff Dog because you just don't stop and come up for air.... :lolb: you putting this old Coonass to shame Dog, damn that's some awesome work........ :praise2:

Don
There is something magic about the combination of mint and dark chocolate!   :thinking:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Jo on March 04, 2017, 06:23:27 PM
There is something magic about the combination of mint and dark chocolate!   :thinking:

And good red wine and castings  ::)

Jo
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 04, 2017, 07:36:02 PM
There is something magic about the combination of mint and dark chocolate!   :thinking:

And good red wine and castings  ::)

Jo
Well, that goes without saying!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on March 04, 2017, 07:38:18 PM
There is something magic about the combination of mint and dark chocolate!   :thinking:

And good red wine and castings  ::)

Jo

And even good red wine without castings.  :wine1:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 04, 2017, 09:18:58 PM
Before cutting any metal on the bevel gears, I needed to go through and run the math on the gears. I started with the Ivan Law book, but kept running into incomplete or confusing formulas, so I went and found an online calculator to clarify things. Here is the math I wound up with (spreadsheets are VERY handy things)

 
Number Teeth - N
24
60
Module
0.7
0.7
DP
36.28571429
36.28571429
Pitch Diameter: D= N/P
0.661417323
1.653543307
Diametral Pitch: P= N/D
36.28571429
36.28571429
Whole Depth:  Ht= 2.188/P+.002
0.062299213
0.062299213
Addendum: a= 1/P
0.027559055
0.027559055
Dedendum : b= Ht-a
0.034740157
0.034740157
Clearance: c= Ht-2*a
0.007181102
0.007181102
Circular Tooth Thickness: T= PI/(2*P)
0.043289663
0.043289663
Pitch Angle:  Lp = atan(Np/Ng),  and Lg= atan(Ng/Np)
21.80140949
68.19859051
Pitch Cone Radius:  Rcp= D/(2*sin(Lp)), and Rcg= D/(2*sin(Lg))
0.890460322
0.890460322
Face Width:  F= min(C/3, 8/P)
0.220472441
0.220472441
Outside Diameter:  Dop= Dp+2*a*cos(Lp),  and Dog= Dg+2*a*cos(Lg)
0.712593203
1.674013659
Back Cone Angle:  = 90-L;
68.19859051
21.80140949
Back Cone Radius:  Rbp= Dp/cos(Lp), and Rbg= Dg/cos(Lg)
0.356184129
2.226150806
Virtual Number of Teeth:  Vp= N/cos(Lp),  and Vg= N/cos(Lg)
25.84879107
161.5549442
Offset for second cut on teeth:
0.021629381
0.021642359
Degrees per whole tooth to move rotary table
15
6
Blank Roll - angle to move rotary table for second cut
3.75
1.5
Tooth Depth to cut
0.059444882
0.059444882

Assuming that I did the math correctly (it matched the online calculator so it should), I now have the info I need for cutting the gears (and some I don't, but it was there in the calculator). The numbers really needed are marked in bold. The virtual number of teeth is the number used to pick which cutter to use when cut constant depth bevel gears.
So, time to go pick some bar stock and figure out the setup on the rotary table - need to angle it 21.8 degrees from the centerline of the mill table. Also need to get out the compound slide on the lathe to prepare the blanks, again 21.8 degrees for the four small gears, 68.198 degrees for the two large gears.

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Jo on March 05, 2017, 08:51:27 AM
 :thinking: Chris I think you need to drop a couple of those decimal places, it would make that lot easier to read.

I'm assuming you are talking 68.2 degrees (68.198) because you are cutting on a rotary table rather than an indexing head. I can recommend indexing heads for cutting gears: they have more bearing surface supporting the spindle than using a rotary table in the vertical mode ::)

Do you not have a copy of ShopCalc? Do you really mean 0.7 DP in your calculations?

Jo
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 05, 2017, 12:39:36 PM
Sorry Jo, I had just copy/pasted from the spreadsheet, which had a bushel of decimal places! 


I don't have Shopcalc, what is it?


And it is .7 module, which is 36.2 dp. That is in there correctly if you follow the line across. I have cutter sets for .7 and 1 module gear teeth, were bought for clock projects originally.


I got the blank set up for the first gear last night, and the rotary table angled over, pics later today.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Jo on March 05, 2017, 01:05:32 PM
0.7 module was what I thought.... Corrected sheets attached.

Shopcalc: http://home.scarlet.be/mini-draaien-frezen/engels/program-01.html a useful little calculator program that I use to quickly do the maths for gear cutting  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 05, 2017, 01:11:44 PM
Looks like a great utility, I'll give it a try! Thanks!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 05, 2017, 05:08:57 PM
Okay, I got the boat stuff ready for the pool run later, so on to the first bevel gear. I am starting with the four smaller gears - less stock to waste in case of boo boo's, which I already had one of when I forgot to reset the Z axis on the third pass.

To start, chucked up a length of brass bar, and turned the end down to the outside diameter of the gear.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xub861w5j/IMG_9567.jpg)
Then, turned in the hub at the end, and used the compound rest to turn in the bevel where the teeth will go, at 21.8 degrees.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3qwpe3sw7/IMG_9570.jpg)
Then over to the mill, with the chuck held on the rotary table just like was done for the spur gears earlier. The one difference is that the rotary table needed to be turned 21.8 degrees to put the bevel on the gear in line with the mill table. Not having a good way to measure that angle, I held a straight edge on the side of the gear blank, and sighted down to the mill table and adjusted till it lined up. Then I drilled another hole in the table extension for another hold down bolt, and put on a clamp at the front for good measure.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/avein505j/IMG_9571.jpg)
After carefully centering the cutter on the end of the blank (used the tool marks on the end of the blank to know where the middle was), the table was moved in till the cutter just touched the blank, then in again by the depth of the teeth. Then, the first pass was made as with a normal spur gear, 15 degrees per tooth for the 24 tooth gear.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/smq51lfk7/IMG_9573.jpg)
Then comes the interesting bit with bevel gears. If you look closely at the teeth after the first pass, you can see that the outside ends of the teeth are wider than the gap between the teeth. The next two passes will fix that. For the second pass, the cutter was lowered by 0.021" from the center position, and the rotary table starting position moved clockwise by 3.75 degrees (which is 1/4 of the 15 degree full tooth). At this new position, the cutter enters the opening in the narrow end of the blank that was cut on the first pass, but as it moves along it takes more material off one side of the tooth, narrowing it at the outer end. A pass on all the teeth was made, turning the rotary table 15 degrees from the new starting point for each tooth.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ds1jnf5zb/IMG_9574.jpg)
Then, for the third pass, the cutter was raised back to the starting point, and another 0.021" up past the starting point. The rotary table starting position was moved counterclockwise by 3.75 degrees, which puts the cutter at the center of the narrow end opening again, but takes a little off the other side of the tooth.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/n2i94p62v/IMG_9575a.jpg)
It can be hard to see the difference looking between the three photos, so here is a montage of all three:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/n2i94p62v/IMG_9575a.jpg)
It is still a subtle difference from pass one (left) to two (middle), but if you compare one to three, it is clear that the outer ends of the teeth are narrower, matching the center gap. At least it should. Hard to be sure with just one gear made, the real test is when the matching large gears are made later, I will make all four small ones with the current setup, and hope it is right.
The next step on the first gear was to drill for its axle,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wobtkzx8n/IMG_9576.jpg)
and part it off to size:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/g1u9bx4av/IMG_9577.jpg)
Here is the first one test fit in the differential plate:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/vbu4j3zt3/IMG_9579.jpg)
All spins freely, so next time I'll make the other three small gears...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 05, 2017, 07:07:08 PM
Gear number 2 made, 2 to go.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/f23yg7p53/IMG_9580.jpg)
Good news on it is, it meshes nicely with the first one, though not at 90 degrees naturally. Still, a good sign that the shapes are right, will know for sure when the 60 tooth ones are made...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on March 06, 2017, 03:38:15 AM
That is pretty cool, Chris!  I really appreciate the step by step on the bevel gears, and the 3 pass picture. That is very interesting.  Now I'm going to have to make some bevel gears some day.  You make it look so easy!

Can't wait to see the mating part of the differential!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on March 06, 2017, 08:34:30 AM
 :popcorn: must get more  :popcorn:

Great "how to" Chris, be good reference for the future. Jo's link looks like it would be very helpful too

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 06, 2017, 02:13:13 PM
Thanks! I got one more made before the pool run last night, should have the last one this morning, and get a start on the large bevel gears.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 06, 2017, 05:33:09 PM
Some pics from the pool run last night.
Some of the group in the shallow end:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/56lpiwttz/IMG_1686.jpg)
and some video of my new lobsterboat and of one of the guys minisubs leaping around
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pU7SOVerAaw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtiDnAywO4I

Today, back to the gears...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 06, 2017, 09:10:35 PM
And back in the shop this afternoon to continue work on the differential gears. I finished the last of the small gears,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gk88u44cn/IMG_9581.jpg)
and got a start on the two large ones for the output shafts. Started by turning a length of bar stock to the outside diameter, 1.67", and drilling the starter hole for the shaft,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/vu841azuv/IMG_9582.jpg)
which was then bored out to size
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dsoz3i5tz/IMG_9583.jpg)
Then set up the compound rest to the complent of the angle for the first gears, 68.2 degrees, and turned in the bevel on the face
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3k13bf75z/IMG_9584.jpg)
and then came back with the boring bar and recessed the center of the face by 0.060" to get it below the depth of the teeth.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ouynfopaf/IMG_9585.jpg)
Then moved the chuck back over to the rotary table on the mill, which is still in the same position as it was for the smaller bevel gears. The one difference for the larger gears is that rather than cutting on the back face with the long axis of the mill, these will be cut on the front face with the short axis, which lets me keep the table at the same angle but get the complementary face of the gears.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kzv9d464n/IMG_9587.jpg)
With the mill table zeroed with the cutter just touching the face of the bevel, then moved in the tooth depth, started cutting the teeth. These larger gears are 60 tooth, so the advance angle on the rotary table is 6 degrees per cut.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/hhj9gq58n/IMG_9590.jpg)
Here is the gear after the first pass,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ggj0rlo93/IMG_9591.jpg)
and then the cutter was lowered 0.021 and the rotary table moved 1.5 degrees (counterclockwise this time, since it is on the opposite face from the small gears), and a second pass was made to shave the outer ends of the teeth:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/67qjls07b/IMG_9593.jpg)
and then the cutter raised the same distance above center, and the rotary table offset 1.5 degrees clockwise, for the third pass:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tah2ky1on/IMG_9594.jpg)
With the teeth complete, back over to the lathe to part off the gear. This was done in two steps to leave a thicker area around the hub.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/b8xxn57nr/IMG_9595.jpg)
And the completed gear test fit on the differential unit - all seems to mesh nicely, so I must have gotten the math right the other day! 
 :cartwheel:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/d20ubgsuf/IMG_9596.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/fkmjc5ekn/IMG_9599.jpg)
So, one large gear down, one to go, then I can make the output half-shafts to hold the large gears.

But first, a celebratory chocolate mint chip cookie!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on March 06, 2017, 09:17:13 PM
That is just too neat, Chris!  You must fell like doing a happy dance right now   :whoohoo:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 06, 2017, 09:18:06 PM
That is just too neat, Chris!  You must fell like doing a happy dance right now   :whoohoo:
Kim
Oh yes! Its always great when days of work come out successfully!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: scc on March 06, 2017, 10:35:47 PM
Very impressive Chris,  So far I've chickened out from attempting gears. That diff. looks fine.         Regards...........Terry
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on March 06, 2017, 10:42:09 PM
Well, there's no doubt in my mind where to go when I need some gears cut.. :naughty:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 06, 2017, 11:12:20 PM
Very impressive Chris,  So far I've chickened out from attempting gears. That diff. looks fine.         Regards...........Terry

Straight spur gears are not difficult at all, practice on a gouple scraps and you'll get it pretty quick. Bevel gears are a bit fussier, but its the same basic steps with just a couple added wrinkles.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 06, 2017, 11:13:01 PM
Well, there's no doubt in my mind where to go when I need some gears cut.. :naughty:

Pete

Yup - to SDPI's website?!   :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 06, 2017, 11:20:58 PM
After a good relax time and some dinner, I went back and cut the last bevel gear. Knowing the setup was good made this last one go a lot faster, plus I finally got up the nerve to try something that the Ivan Law book remarks upon: on small gears, you can actually skip the first pass and just do the final two, since they are taking off such a small amount on small gears. The blank I was starting with had enough length that if it went wrong, I could still get one more out of it, but it all worked out fine.
Here are all the parts so far for the differential unit:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/iwymaoah3/IMG_9601.jpg)
and how they look put together:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/lsbphjeh3/IMG_9603.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/9rq9gt72f/IMG_9604.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/93hexv8cn/IMG_9605.jpg)
Next up will be the half shafts that the large gears ride on. They will have a hole in the inboard end that goes over the axle stub in the center plate, and a narrower section at the outboard ends that the drive chain sprockets sit in. The axle shafts will project in from the large gears and ride against the center plate hub to give the proper spacing for the gears. The speed difference from the center plate to the half shafts is very small, and only present in turns, so I dont think I will bother with bronze bearings there, just some grease.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on March 06, 2017, 11:48:02 PM
Very nice work Chris. I have no issues with plain spur gears---if you have the correct gear cutters it's just straight math and paying attention. I have one set of 45 degree bevel gears that I made following an Australian fellows tutorial on making them, and there is a lot involved with making them. I have the one set up on my "Brag shelf" but wouldn't want to make them very often.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 06, 2017, 11:53:49 PM
On these I had some problems at first getting the depth right, I think I made the face width too large so the teeth at the inside ends got too skinny. There are numerous write-ups and calculators out there, but none seem to give complete details on how to calculate everything. The Ivan Law book gets close, but since his example was for the simplist case (two 20 tooth gears) there are things left vague for other cases.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on March 07, 2017, 12:23:23 AM
But first, a celebratory chocolate mint chip cookie!

Yeah, yeah! We all know what's in those cookies......got to be some good stuff, but the gears look great ther Dog.  :praise2:

Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: steam guy willy on March 07, 2017, 12:58:46 AM
Those are geeeerrraat and you make it all look so easy some lovely work going on here......really inspirational..
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on March 07, 2017, 03:05:47 AM
That assembly alone is a work of art Chris. Thanks for the great pictures and write up too!!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on March 07, 2017, 03:31:45 AM
Yes...........great documentation and pictures!  :ThumbsUp: Still seems like a bit of "black magic", but then I've thought the about other machining things, until I actually waded through the process of doing it.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 07, 2017, 04:10:36 AM
Thanks guys! If it doesn't work out as a differential, it will make a great steampunk carousel for the shop elves!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on March 07, 2017, 07:53:18 AM
Hang about....were did that new boat pop up from?
Zee we have been duped!
Those elves are on double time....ether that or they are running two shifts! Boat & gears at the same time!

Oh the gears do look the part! The elves will be keen to nick them!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: kvom on March 07, 2017, 12:40:48 PM
Impressive!!   :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 07, 2017, 12:49:13 PM
Hang about....were did that new boat pop up from?
Zee we have been duped!
Those elves are on double time....ether that or they are running two shifts! Boat & gears at the same time!

Oh the gears do look the part! The elves will be keen to nick them!

Cheers Kerrin
Actually the boat was on very slow schedule. I won the fiberglass hull in the raffle at the big RC submarine meet in Carmel Indiana last August, got the cabin made last fall, and it sat unfinished for the last 5 months till I finally got the running gear mounted last week. Still need to put in the cockpit controls and the lobster pot winch and pulley.
To paraphrase Monty Python, the elves responsible for finishing this boat have been sacked!
Just in time too, I was just given a kit for a Delphin minisub...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 07, 2017, 07:10:42 PM
Made up the output shafts from the differential this afternoon, simple bit of turning. Started with some 3/8" bar stock, turned one end down to 1/4" for the drive sprockets, and drilled a 1/4" hole in the other end to slip over the ring gear axle. The large bevel gears were attached to the axle shafts with some loctite retaining compound.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/j9qxjlqmf/IMG_9606.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/x4p822l1j/IMG_9607.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/r51gyf093/IMG_9608.jpg)

All turns freely, next up will be the frame and bearing blocks that hold the differential unit to the bottom of the main frame.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 09, 2017, 11:43:26 PM
No updates for a couple of days, we had a big wind storm, just got power back here. Some progress on the differential plate though, pics later. One other nice thing about the Sherlines, they draw just a little power so the generator was able to power the shop as well as the rest of the house.
No damage here, but many huge trees and power poles down around town.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on March 10, 2017, 12:33:54 AM
Hope you didn't suffer any damage Chris. Power outage is inconvenient but with a generator even that is tolerable.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 10, 2017, 01:10:07 AM
Hope you didn't suffer any damage Chris. Power outage is inconvenient but with a generator even that is tolerable.

I wouldn't worry much about Chris. He's got elves.
We need to figure out how he's able to retain such good elves. What are we doing wrong?
Seems' like all the elves and gnomes we have are into stealing and gas lighting us.

Seriously though...glad you didn't have damage and hope the same for your neighbors.

Note the question. What are we doing wrong? Not...what is he doing right?

Those gears look insanely good.

@Kerrin...if we continue watching...we'll continue being duped.  ;D
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 10, 2017, 01:27:48 AM
Hope you didn't suffer any damage Chris. Power outage is inconvenient but with a generator even that is tolerable.

Bill
No damage here, I had taken out the row of giant pine trees behind the house two years ago, good thing since pines were uprooting all over town. A row of power poles near here that they replaced after the wind storm two weeks ago all broke again today! About 150000 houses with no power here, couple of the towns north of here are under states of emergency, stuff down everywhere.
My generator paid for itself yet again!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 10, 2017, 01:31:17 AM
Hope you didn't suffer any damage Chris. Power outage is inconvenient but with a generator even that is tolerable.

I wouldn't worry much about Chris. He's got elves.
We need to figure out how he's able to retain such good elves. What are we doing wrong?
Seems' like all the elves and gnomes we have are into stealing and gas lighting us.

Seriously though...glad you didn't have damage and hope the same for your neighbors.

Note the question. What are we doing wrong? Not...what is he doing right?

Those gears look insanely good.

@Kerrin...if we continue watching...we'll continue being duped.  ;D


Two secrets.
1 mint chocolate chip cookies
2 I look a bit like an elf, short, full beard, heavy set. They think I am on of them.


Okay, three things, shops full of fun tools on both floors and in basement.
Oh, four things, a steam train layout in the basement for them to play with!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 10, 2017, 01:34:43 AM
Oh, four things, a steam train layout in the basement for them to play with!

Time for pics dude.
No. Not pics. It's movie time!!!

How many other secrets do you have? No. Don't answer that. Could lead to a TV special.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 10, 2017, 01:36:47 AM
Oh, four things, a steam train layout in the basement for them to play with!

Time for pics dude.
No. Not pics. It's movie time!!!

How many other secrets do you have? No. Don't answer that. Could lead to a TV special.
I'm still under a nondisclosure agreement from my days in Santa's workshop, can't say anything more....
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 10, 2017, 01:40:43 AM
Oh, four things, a steam train layout in the basement for them to play with!

Time for pics dude.
No. Not pics. It's movie time!!!

How many other secrets do you have? No. Don't answer that. Could lead to a TV special.

I'm still under a nondisclosure agreement from my days in Santa's workshop, can't say anything more....

In which case..you've violated it already.  ;D
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 10, 2017, 01:50:30 AM
Oh, four things, a steam train layout in the basement for them to play with!

Time for pics dude.
No. Not pics. It's movie time!!!

How many other secrets do you have? No. Don't answer that. Could lead to a TV special.

I'm still under a nondisclosure agreement from my days in Santa's workshop, can't say anything more....

In which case..you've violated it already.  ;D
Sigh.


Now I have to call in the ninja reindeer assassin squad on you...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 10, 2017, 01:57:57 AM
Oh, four things, a steam train layout in the basement for them to play with!

Time for pics dude.
No. Not pics. It's movie time!!!

How many other secrets do you have? No. Don't answer that. Could lead to a TV special.

I'm still under a nondisclosure agreement from my days in Santa's workshop, can't say anything more....

In which case..you've violated it already.  ;D
Sigh.


Now I have to call in the ninja reindeer assassin squad on you...

Now for that...I have repellent.
Wait...lemme check the expiration date...

Yep. Still good.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 10, 2017, 02:00:24 AM
Oh, four things, a steam train layout in the basement for them to play with!

Time for pics dude.
No. Not pics. It's movie time!!!

How many other secrets do you have? No. Don't answer that. Could lead to a TV special.

I'm still under a nondisclosure agreement from my days in Santa's workshop, can't say anything more....

In which case..you've violated it already.  ;D
Sigh.


Now I have to call in the ninja reindeer assassin squad on you...

Now for that...I have repellent.
Wait...lemme check the expiration date...

Yep. Still good.
Pump action Ithaca? Very long shelf life...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 10, 2017, 02:20:39 AM
Oh, and I'll try and dig up some pics of the shops soon...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 10, 2017, 08:30:24 PM
The differential mounting plate is still in the works, nothing done on it today (yet) since I've been playing on the computer updating the plan to match the plate (decided on some changes as I was building it), and designing up the crankshaft assembly which will sit on top of it.
Here is a rendering of it:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/b2a87g2iv/Engine_Bed_v58.jpg)
The bearing blocks for the crankshaft are different than any I've done before, they had the seam between the upper and lower blocks at a 45 degree angle, which makes sense for how the stresses are from the con rods. The center of the shaft where it goes through the drive gear is thicker than at the ends, and there are two sets of eccentrics inboard of the bearing blocks, one for each cylinder. The crank pins are mounted in discs at the outside, so those will be simple to make. There are a couple of balancing slots in the discs that I have not drawn in yet.

So, later on back into the shop to finish up the mounting plate, and start on the differential bearing blocks... Pics to follow later today or tomorrow.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 10, 2017, 11:08:20 PM
Okay, time to get caught up after all the fun with the wind storm and power outages. Still about 80000 homes without power near here, they got one neighborhood back up, but the wires off the new poles were too low and a truck took out the wires and the poles again. Oh @#$@#$!
  :zap:

Anyway, here is what I got done, half under generator power:

I did not have any 1/8" stock wide enough, so the mounting plate was made in two pieces, held together by the framework that simulates the stiffening ridge in the casting on the original. First step was to lay out the part on some 1/8"x2" bar stock, along with the start of the frame out of some smaller stock:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/hlnnal4av/IMG_9610.jpg)
Rough cut out the stock,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/vglxt1ypz/IMG_9611.jpg)
and milled out the shape of the frame pieces that will straddle the joint, first the center section:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/oeo06uv47/IMG_9612.jpg)
and then the ends
(https://s5.postimg.cc/n0wdbjvuv/IMG_9613.jpg)
leaving it ready to clamp together for drilling the holes:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5p0m3urrb/IMG_9614.jpg)
With it clamped together, and clamped to a spacer block to protect the mill table, drilled the holes for bolts to hold it together for silver soldering:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/m1antl62v/IMG_9616.jpg)
Also made up the extensions to finish the framework, bolted it all up with some round head screws (these are just for soldering, the heads and extra shanks will be milled off). After silver soldering the framework to the plates, and cleaning up the flux residue, I clamped it down to the mill again and milled the edges of the plates clean and to size.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4cix1yubr/IMG_9618.jpg)
Then re-laid out the openings to get ready for cutting them:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gsfmvpnnr/IMG_9620.jpg)
and started drilling holes at the corners of all the openings. These holes will form the arcs at the corners of the openings.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/z9a1mj3lz/IMG_9621.jpg)
Then back with the end mill and started cutting out the openings, starting with the horizontal long ones,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6xohphjpj/IMG_9623.jpg)
and continuing on with the shorter ones on the big opening,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5wo90d2pz/IMG_9624.jpg)
before angling the plate to do the angled ends on the small openings
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fihtgntvr/IMG_9625.jpg)
and then milling off the screw heads and the shanks sticking out the other side
(https://s5.postimg.cc/962o6tqtj/IMG_9626.jpg)
After a little cleanup of burs with the sander and a file, the plate is ready for bearing blocks:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ju6f5o0sn/IMG_9629.jpg)
Will continue with the bearing blocks next time...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on March 10, 2017, 11:19:39 PM
You made quick work of that Chris. Amazing what you can get done when you and Zee aren't talking cookies, gnomes and ninja assassins  :lolb:  Sounds like you got your power back though, that is a good thing.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on March 10, 2017, 11:37:32 PM
Exactly what Bill said.

Chris, you must be turbo powered.  Man you work fast!

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 11, 2017, 12:32:43 AM
Amazing what you can get done when you and Zee aren't talking cookies, gnomes and ninja assassins

Pffft. He's got a shop. With helpers.
I just have an empty room.
A great big nothing.
And not that big.

Until that room becomes a shop...I can only distract.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 11, 2017, 12:35:20 AM
It was not that fast, was done over the last several days. That is another nice thing about small machines like the Sherlines, they don't draw much so I could run the shop with the generator without overloading it, along with furnace, fridge, lights.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 11, 2017, 12:38:18 AM
Amazing what you can get done when you and Zee aren't talking cookies, gnomes and ninja assassins

Pffft. He's got a shop. With helpers.
I just have an empty room.
A great big nothing.
And not that big.

Until that room becomes a shop...I can only distract.
Pffftttt! Not one shop. Four shops!  Pffftttt!   8)


And cookies. Though the stash in the freezer is down to the last bag, will have to do another mass batch soon.  :stir:

Look at it this way: the empty room is just a temporarily less productive shop!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on March 11, 2017, 03:43:30 AM
This is coming out nice Chris. As I watched the differential building process, I've been trying to figure out how you were going to drive it. Really simple when I saw it drawn up!  :Doh:

I've learned a lot watching this build. Now if I can just remember it.  :wallbang:

Lately you all are getting hammered back there, weather wise. Beautiful here today.......got up flying. Rain back tomorrow.  :(

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on March 11, 2017, 05:56:34 AM
Lately you all are getting hammered back there, weather wise. Beautiful here today.......got up flying. Rain back tomorrow.  :(
What?  Back to rain again tomorrow?  They give us ONE day where its not pouring and then back to rain again...  I'll be ready for a bit of dry soon.  I don't even require sun.  Just not pouring rain would be fun :)

Chris, love watching your fabrication work.  That is really neat looking, and I am going to have to do something like this someday.  Maybe without tracks.  Or who knows, maybe with! (if you sign the copy of your book for me, then I'll definitely build one with tracks :)).
KIM
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 11, 2017, 12:11:24 PM
This is coming out nice Chris. As I watched the differential building process, I've been trying to figure out how you were going to drive it. Really simple when I saw it drawn up!  :Doh:

I've learned a lot watching this build. Now if I can just remember it.  :wallbang:

Lately you all are getting hammered back there, weather wise. Beautiful here today.......got up flying. Rain back tomorrow.  :(

Jim
Thanks Jim, am very happy with how the diff is coming out. None of the mechanism is my design, I'm following the original as closely as I can


We got lucky with the weather just after the wind hit, it was above freezing for a couple of days, now the next few are around 10 F, nasty for those still waiting for power. They are claiming that most will be back by Sunday night. Generators have been selling by the truckload.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 11, 2017, 12:12:03 PM
Lately you all are getting hammered back there, weather wise. Beautiful here today.......got up flying. Rain back tomorrow.  :(
What?  Back to rain again tomorrow?  They give us ONE day where its not pouring and then back to rain again...  I'll be ready for a bit of dry soon.  I don't even require sun.  Just not pouring rain would be fun :)

Chris, love watching your fabrication work.  That is really neat looking, and I am going to have to do something like this someday.  Maybe without tracks.  Or who knows, maybe with! (if you sign the copy of your book for me, then I'll definitely build one with tracks :) ).
KIM
Deal!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 11, 2017, 10:45:48 PM
Hey Bill/etc, those with Sherline lathes:
While making up a stern cone fitting for an RC submarine, I needed to use the boring bar on the compound slide to turn the inner surface of the cone. Turns out, the way the compound is designed for turning on the back side and with no hieght adjustment, the bar was way too high up since it is not a normal 1/4" cutter. So,
whipped up this little adapter:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/u4dnyvy6f/IMG_9644.jpg)
so I could turn with the bar in the compound slide:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4x2rymv2f/IMG_9640.jpg)
Very simple adapter, something to keep in mind if you ever need it.


Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 12, 2017, 12:53:21 AM
Nice idea on the adaptor.

It's often too easy to get stuck looking at a tree and not the forest.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 12, 2017, 01:11:50 AM
Nice idea on the adaptor.

It's often too easy to get stuck looking at a tree and not the forest.
Thanks. I would SO love to spend some time in Sherlines back room with some of their engineers. So many little things that could be upgraded and improved at no cost.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Walsheng on March 12, 2017, 02:37:56 AM
Nice idea on the adaptor.

It's often too easy to get stuck looking at a tree and not the forest.
Thanks. I would SO love to spend some time in Sherlines back room with some of their engineers. So many little things that could be upgraded and improved at no cost.

Wasn't Sherline set up at Names last year?  Maybe a Sunday afternoon conversation with them!

John
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on March 12, 2017, 02:45:07 AM
Chris, I have the compound as well and it does work but it is not one of the better thought out accessories. No height adjustment as you note, but also the lack of any type gib, and it will move some vertically when cutting. I find it rather loose overall. Nice work on the adapter though!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 13, 2017, 09:04:55 PM
The last day or so has not seen much done on the hauler, been working on one of the RC submarines instead. Today I did spend the afternoon modelling up more of the engine. Last time I got up through the crankshaft, today was all spent on the stephenson linkages and all the control rods and brackets. LOTS of parts there!
Here is a rendering of it:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/b2a87g2iv/Engine_Bed_v58.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 14, 2017, 08:19:22 PM
Okay, shifted gears today ( :facepalm: ) and got back to the differential bearing blocks.

Started with two lengths of square bar in the mill vise, long enough to get all four block sets out of, spot drilled
(https://s5.postimg.cc/49uwkri87/IMG_9672.jpg)
and drilled
(https://s5.postimg.cc/t4eeeu32f/IMG_9674.jpg)
for the mounting bolts, then drilled clearance size through the top bar only
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6tqjev5s7/IMG_9677.jpg)
and then bolted the bars together and stamped a number on each half to keep the pairs together later on. They should be all the same, but I didn't do this on an engine once, they had a little variance (always do), and got mixed up. Was a royal pain to try the combinations till it ran smooth again.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3o5xonn5z/IMG_9679.jpg)
For the bearings, started with some bearing bronze rod, drilled
(https://s5.postimg.cc/vcskw6a6f/IMG_9680.jpg)
and bored out to size (I like to bore holes for running shafts, better results than just drilling)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4g8lnurd3/IMG_9681.jpg)
and then turned down the outside to size - it looks thin, but the real ones were too, and this is 1/12th that size.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mkbm8hp1j/IMG_9682.jpg)
Rather than try the parting tool, which I was worried might bend the thin walls, I used the turning tool to mark the lengths of the bearings
(https://s5.postimg.cc/yngxw203r/IMG_9684.jpg)
and then used a small thin hacksaw to part them off while turning.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/cct2w32tj/IMG_9685.jpg)
Just left a small bur that a file knocked off pretty quick. Here is a test fit on the half shaft:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/hphxa7qpz/IMG_9686.jpg)
The bearing blocks were then turned sideways in the mill vise, and starter holes were drilled and then got out the boring head to take them up to match the bearings
(https://s5.postimg.cc/duj4ldwxz/IMG_9687.jpg)
Here the holes are done, you can see one of the bearings slipped into the hole on the left
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gpw7s90xz/IMG_9688.jpg)
Next up will be to saw the blocks apart, and then clean up the ends with the mill. After that, it will be time to drill the holes in the mounting plate and get the bearings in place.
The last things to do on the differential will be to get it mounted to the engine bed rails, and also I need to make the sheet metal cover that hides all that nice gear work...   :hellno:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 14, 2017, 09:14:43 PM
Was using the turning tool to mark the bearings in order to provide a starting point for the hacksaw?
How did you account for the width of the hacksaw?

 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 14, 2017, 09:25:59 PM
Was using the turning tool to mark the bearings in order to provide a starting point for the hacksaw?
How did you account for the width of the hacksaw?

 :popcorn:
Exactly. It gave an indent for the blade to ride in without skating. The width was not critical, I filed them smooth and to width. The tool mark was about the width of the blade, which was dumb luck.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 14, 2017, 09:49:34 PM
Was using the turning tool to mark the bearings in order to provide a starting point for the hacksaw?
How did you account for the width of the hacksaw?

 :popcorn:
Exactly. It gave an indent for the blade to ride in without skating. The width was not critical, I filed them smooth and to width. The tool mark was about the width of the blade, which was dumb luck.

Shhhhhh. It is always by design.

I have two many rules at work:

1) First see if the bug can be made a feature.
2) Answer all why questions with 'by design'.

 :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 14, 2017, 10:30:20 PM
Was using the turning tool to mark the bearings in order to provide a starting point for the hacksaw?
How did you account for the width of the hacksaw?

 :popcorn:
Exactly. It gave an indent for the blade to ride in without skating. The width was not critical, I filed them smooth and to width. The tool mark was about the width of the blade, which was dumb luck.

Shhhhhh. It is always by design.

I have two many rules at work:

1) First see if the bug can be made a feature.
2) Answer all why questions with 'by design'.

 :lolb:
My first real boat (a wonderful 12' Whitehall row/sailboat, built by Shew and Burnham in Maine), was named 'Dumb Luck'.

And on the one project we did with Java as the main engine, we called everything a 'Java bug, we can't fix that'.  :atcomputer:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 14, 2017, 10:49:33 PM
Was using the turning tool to mark the bearings in order to provide a starting point for the hacksaw?
How did you account for the width of the hacksaw?

 :popcorn:
Exactly. It gave an indent for the blade to ride in without skating. The width was not critical, I filed them smooth and to width. The tool mark was about the width of the blade, which was dumb luck.

Shhhhhh. It is always by design.

I have two many rules at work:

1) First see if the bug can be made a feature.
2) Answer all why questions with 'by design'.

 :lolb:
My first real boat (a wonderful 12' Whitehall row/sailboat, built by Shew and Burnham in Maine), was named 'Dumb Luck'.

And on the one project we did with Java as the main engine, we called everything a 'Java bug, we can't fix that'.  :atcomputer:

Another rule of mine...if it's not my bug...it's a bug.  ;D

Ah...to be fair...I'm where I am with a wonderful family out of sheer dumb luck (as well as on some by design on her part).
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 15, 2017, 08:47:24 PM
Catching up on the differential plate, got the mounting holes drilled for the bearing blocks:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4j1o269s7/IMG_9689.jpg)
all ran nice and smooth, so did a test fit to the engine bed rails:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4x301rtvr/IMG_9693.jpg)
and then the whole assembly onto the main rails.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/t3i8qn5dz/IMG_9697.jpg)
The assembly will be on/off a number of times as the rest of the engine is made. Next I am going to get the drive chains adjusted to length - looks like I need to add a few more of the spare links that I had made (left them a little short, easier to add more than to grind off cross pin heads and remove them).
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 15, 2017, 09:20:33 PM
all ran nice and smooth

Were you surprised? I wasn't.  ;D
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: RonGinger on March 15, 2017, 09:21:42 PM
Quote
My first real boat (a wonderful 12' Whitehall row/sailboat, built by Shew and Burnham in Maine), was named 'Dumb Luck'.

Wow, I could tell you have good taste. Dick Shew and Cecil Burnham are two of my best friends. I've known them since about 1978. I helped build their boat shop, and on more recent boats I make the brass tags with the Coast Guard required data. Sadly, they are getting pretty old now, Dick still works in the shop, but mostly in the vein of puttering. Cecil still builds a few skiffs each year for the local fishermen, and repairs some of the  whitehalls.

You should see their tug boat- about 26 feet of the finest kind. It has a feathering prop, behind a GM 6-71 diesel, turned by a coupling I made. Two pieces of durabar cast iron 6" diameter, weighed 36 pounds to start, yielded an 18 pound part.

That photo of the differential on the main rails is just outstanding. Amazing work.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 15, 2017, 09:42:43 PM
Quote
My first real boat (a wonderful 12' Whitehall row/sailboat, built by Shew and Burnham in Maine), was named 'Dumb Luck'.

Wow, I could tell you have good taste. Dick Shew and Cecil Burnham are two of my best friends. I've known them since about 1978. I helped build their boat shop, and on more recent boats I make the brass tags with the Coast Guard required data. Sadly, they are getting pretty old now, Dick still works in the shop, but mostly in the vein of puttering. Cecil still builds a few skiffs each year for the local fishermen, and repairs some of the  whitehalls.

You should see their tug boat- about 26 feet of the finest kind. It has a feathering prop, behind a GM 6-71 diesel, turned by a coupling I made. Two pieces of durabar cast iron 6" diameter, weighed 36 pounds to start, yielded an 18 pound part.

That photo of the differential on the main rails is just outstanding. Amazing work.
Wow! Small world! That Whitehall was a whole lot of fun, wound up selling it years later when I started building full size boats myself. Last I knew it was at a cottage down on Seneca lake, kept indoors in a boathouse. Beautiful boat!
Say hello to them from a past, very satisfied customer!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on March 15, 2017, 10:44:32 PM
I hate to sound like a broken record...I love this thing.  Great job Chris.

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 15, 2017, 11:14:36 PM
I hate to sound like a broken record...I love this thing.  Great job Chris.

-Bob
Thanks Bob!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on March 16, 2017, 12:32:34 AM
Amazing progress Chris, everything looks great!

Dave
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 17, 2017, 04:08:37 PM
Thanks Dave!

Not much to report today, been alternating time between work on the RC boats and getting the drive chains finished off. Got both of them fit for length, and the first one is moving fine. The second one kept sticking at one point around the small sprocket, tracked it down to a pair of link bars that were a little too short between the holes, either the drill slipped on that set or I miscounted turns on the mill table (more likely). So just need to file off the pin heads on those and replace them with proper ones....

One other fun arrival: one of the excellent folks I have been corresponding with up in Maine about the hauler sent me a big file with a copy of the plans for a 20hp Stanley Steamer automobile engine. Would make a wonderful scaled down model, may be a future project in it! Rather than fondling castings like Jo, I tend to collect plans and try not to drool on them too much...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: kvom on March 17, 2017, 07:34:54 PM
The HP of the Stanley Steamer engine was limited in practice by the pressure and volume of steam available from a car's boiler.  From http://www.stanleymotorcarriage.com/SteamEngine/SteamEngine.htm

In reality Stanley steam engines had the capability to produce a lot more horsepower than the horsepower rating of the boiler.  A 20-horsepower engine could develop approximately 125 horsepower.  The problem arises with the engine developing 125 horsepower the boiler is required to generate a large volume of 550 PSIG steam pressure continuously.  Unfortunately the boiler isn't capable of generating this volume of steam and thus the horsepower of the engine drops off as the steam pressure from the boiler drops.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 17, 2017, 10:11:58 PM
Rather than fondling castings like Jo, I tend to collect plans and try not to drool on them too much...

fondling vs collecting  :thinking:

Keep in mind she does both. I'm betting you do as well. Collect the plans and fondle pore over them.

I do the same.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 17, 2017, 10:44:22 PM
Rather than fondling castings like Jo, I tend to collect plans and try not to drool on them too much...

fondling vs collecting  :thinking:

Keep in mind she does both. I'm betting you do as well. Collect the plans and fondle pore over them.

I do the same.
Its very different. Plsns are lighter weight!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on March 18, 2017, 12:39:10 AM
I am still following along Chris, just haven't commented in a few days. The differential and its mount look wonderful. You are outdoing yourself and that ain't easy to do :)

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 18, 2017, 12:49:56 AM
I am still following along Chris, just haven't commented in a few days. The differential and its mount look wonderful. You are outdoing yourself and that ain't easy to do :)

Bill

Thanks Bill!

I've been alternating time with the boats and the drive chains, got the second one adjusted to length with the replaced (correct length) few links that were causing a problem, gave it all a spin, and found a few links on the first side that were meshing right but they have some sticky spots, so am having to do some filing fettling and fussing with them now. Not that surprising with a one-off small chain, but it gets old quick and I wander off to do something else! Probably another session should do it, and will get started on the crankshaft assembly soon....

And one of you guys needs to build one of the gas-powered versions of the Lombard (the gas version took over from steam sometime in the 20's I think), with one of your Tiny IC engines!!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on March 18, 2017, 01:05:20 AM
Yeah but imagine how TINY all those chain links would be and the differential would look more like a watch I bet.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 18, 2017, 01:16:45 AM
Yeah but imagine how TINY all those chain links would be and the differential would look more like a watch I bet.

Bill
Well, yeah. Thats why I suggested that someone else build it!!   :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: RonGinger on March 19, 2017, 01:37:15 PM
Not really- the gas Lombard is as big as the steamer. There is a fully restored one in the Maine State Museum, right next door to the state capitol. And that is just past the 1849 LION locomotive- one that I think desperately needs to be modeled. I started it, but in G scale it became watchmakers work and I quit. My start is at http://pleasantcovemodels.com/lion.htm (http://pleasantcovemodels.com/lion.htm)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 19, 2017, 04:39:18 PM
Not really- the gas Lombard is as big as the steamer. There is a fully restored one in the Maine State Museum, right next door to the state capitol. And that is just past the 1849 LION locomotive- one that I think desperately needs to be modeled. I started it, but in G scale it became watchmakers work and I quit. My start is at http://pleasantcovemodels.com/lion.htm (http://pleasantcovemodels.com/lion.htm)
I was not aware of that museum, will be going past there on the trip this spring, will stop in, Thanks!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 19, 2017, 04:44:31 PM
And I know, I keep saying I am about to start on the crankshaft, but I decided it would be best to finish up the 3D model of the engine as a whole before starting on its parts, in case I need to move anything for alignment of all the shafts and levers. So, today I spent some time getting the cylinder assembly modelled up, got the one on the left side nearly done, just need to put in the valve slider/rods, and make up the connecting rod parts. Then it will be copied/mirrored to the right side engine bed. Here is a rendering of where it is at right now:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/b2a87g2iv/Engine_Bed_v58.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on March 19, 2017, 05:16:53 PM
Chris, I am enjoying your thread more than any other on all of the forums I attend. You are getting very handy with your 3D modelling skills.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 20, 2017, 09:42:27 PM
Thanks Brian!  I know I am just scratching the surface of what the package is capable of, but I just need it for the modelling and plans output. It has made this model possible though, I'd still be working out the tracks without it.

Today I got more on the engine done, got the crosshead and connecting rod designed up:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/b2a87g2iv/Engine_Bed_v58.jpg)
Had to simplify the shape of the crosshead just a little, given the scaling down in size that is not unexpected. The general appearance is still matching.
I've been wanting to try a full wedged con rod assembly in a model, looks like this is my chance, they used a wedged strap at both ends of the con rod.
Still need to put in the valve rod/slider and the steam passages, and I can copy the cylinder/etc over to the other side of the model and generate the plans. Going to be a bunch of sheets for this one...

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 21, 2017, 12:36:40 AM
Over on Gail's thread we were discussing gear cutting, and Dan mentioned the book Gear Cutting Simplified from Industrial Press. Just got my copy, terrific reference book, makes a great addition to the Ivan Law book. It lays out ghe terms and formulas much better than Law does, where Law gives more background info.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on March 21, 2017, 02:00:26 AM
Over on Gail's thread we were discussing gear cutting, and Dan mentioned the book Gear Cutting Simplified from Industrial Press. Just got my copy, terrific reference book, makes a great addition to the Ivan Law book. It lays out ghe terms and formulas much better than Law does, where Law gives more background info.

Couldn't find a book called "Gear Cutting Simplified"  :atcomputer: so went over to Gail's thread and it looks like it's called "Gear Design Simplified". Sounds like a good book. I've got Ivan Law's book..........just need to spend more time with it. What I actually need is a copy of "Gear Cutting for Dummies"!  :Lol: Of course there's no substitute for coming up with a need and then just dive in and do it.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 21, 2017, 02:18:40 AM
Over on Gail's thread we were discussing gear cutting, and Dan mentioned the book Gear Cutting Simplified from Industrial Press. Just got my copy, terrific reference book, makes a great addition to the Ivan Law book. It lays out ghe terms and formulas much better than Law does, where Law gives more background info.

Couldn't find a book called "Gear Cutting Simplified"  :atcomputer: so went over to Gail's thread and it looks like it's called "Gear Design Simplified". Sounds like a good book. I've got Ivan Law's book..........just need to spend more time with it. What I actually need is a copy of "Gear Cutting for Dummies"!  :Lol: Of course there's no substitute for coming up with a need and then just dive in and do it.

Jim
Whoops! You are right, it is Gear DESIGN Simplified.


Sorry about that, acute case of Brainus Fartus!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 21, 2017, 05:07:26 PM
Finally got the last of the engine parts modelled up in 3D:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/b2a87g2iv/Engine_Bed_v58.jpg)
and same pic in pez-dispenser colors to see all the different  parts easier
(https://s5.postimg.cc/b2a87g2iv/Engine_Bed_v58.jpg)
Now that I know everything will fit together and clear each other, I can make up the 2D blueprints from that model and start in on the crankshaft assembly. Back to the shop!
  :cartwheel:

Well, tomorrow, anyway. I have other stuff going on the rest of today.  :ShakeHead:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on March 21, 2017, 06:17:11 PM
Chris--I get a lot of ribbing about the "living color" I use with my models. I do it because it makes the individual components so much easier to see.--Brian
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 21, 2017, 06:21:32 PM
Chris--I get a lot of ribbing about the "living color" I use with my models. I do it because it makes the individual components so much easier to see.--Brian
It does help, in one color things things are just blobs.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on March 21, 2017, 08:07:22 PM
Chris-

An ironic  thread about machining the bevel gears for a Lombard restoration over at PM:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/machining-bevel-gears-332469/?s=982f369009d6d1f6aa251517a2b5c5fd

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 21, 2017, 08:53:30 PM
Chris-

An ironic  thread about machining the bevel gears for a Lombard restoration over at PM:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/machining-bevel-gears-332469/?s=982f369009d6d1f6aa251517a2b5c5fd (http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/machining-bevel-gears-332469/?s=982f369009d6d1f6aa251517a2b5c5fd)

-Bob
Sounds like as much confusion on making model ones as full size ones! They got all wrapped around the pole confusing straight form and gleason form teeth.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: steam guy willy on March 21, 2017, 08:59:55 PM
Chris--I get a lot of ribbing about the "living color" I use with my models. I do it because it makes the individual components so much easier to see.--Brian
It does help, in one color things things are just blobs.


Hi, may i ask why the furthest away parts look bigger than the nearest parts ?? is it the colour?? intriguing
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 21, 2017, 09:29:09 PM
Chris--I get a lot of ribbing about the "living color" I use with my models. I do it because it makes the individual components so much easier to see.--Brian
It does help, in one color things things are just blobs.


Hi, may i ask why the furthest away parts look bigger than the nearest parts ?? is it the colour?? intriguing
It is interesting how color effects perceptions, the farther cylinder is lighter, so has less shadow effect to your eye. Also it has the mounting flange showing, also light, which makes it look larger. I used to work with a lot of image scientist types, who would be able to talk for hours on perception effects and optical dillusions.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on March 22, 2017, 01:57:03 AM
Chris--I get a lot of ribbing about the "living color" I use with my models. I do it because it makes the individual components so much easier to see.--Brian
It does help, in one color things things are just blobs.


Hi, may i ask why the furthest away parts look bigger than the nearest parts ?? is it the colour?? intriguing


It is interesting how color effects perceptions, the farther cylinder is lighter, so has less shadow effect to your eye. Also it has the mounting flange showing, also light, which makes it look larger. I used to work with a lot of image scientist types, who would be able to talk for hours on perception effects and optical dillusions.

I thought that same thing until I started using the grid lines for reference...............interesting!

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on March 22, 2017, 03:57:26 AM
The CAD drawing does not have any perspective to it. That messes with the mind unless you are used to that view.

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: MJM460 on March 22, 2017, 10:41:37 AM
It's called an isometric projection.  Three axes at 120 degrees.  All measurements show as true length parallel to one of the axes.  Easy to handle on the drawing board for a scale representation in 3-D.

Parallel lines stay parallel rather than converging at a horizon, but an always be measured.  Not like a perspective drawing.  Distant parts appear to be over size as we normally see with a perspective view where parallel lines converge at the horizon.  As Pete says, it tends to look a little strange until you are used to it, but it is useful when it is desirable to show at scale rather than just an artistic presentation.  Obviously both have their places.

I always enjoy looking in on the inspiring work on this model, thank you Chris for your trouble in writing it up so well for us all to follow and enjoy.

MJM460
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: steam guy willy on March 22, 2017, 12:26:35 PM
It's called an isometric projection.  Three axes at 120 degrees.  All measurements show as true length parallel to one of the axes.  Easy to handle on the drawing board for a scale representation in 3-D.

Parallel lines stay parallel rather than converging at a horizon, but an always be measured.  Not like a perspective drawing.  Distant parts appear to be over size as we normally see with a perspective view where parallel lines converge at the horizon.  As Pete says, it tends to look a little strange until you are used to it, but it is useful when it is desirable to show at scale rather than just an artistic presentation.  Obviously both have their places.

I always enjoy looking in on the inspiring work on this model, thank you Chris for your trouble in writing it up so well for us all to follow and enjoy.

MJM460

Thanks for the info I did wonder if it was isometric ,perspective ,trompe d'lol or just good old  "should have gone to specksavers"   and i have now cancelled my appointment to Specksavers  !!! Its a good job that cad doesn't work to Pespective although it might introduce some extra realism to our models !!

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: ShopShoe on March 22, 2017, 12:38:12 PM
Getting OT, but one more observation.

Us engineering types tend to have our own way of understanding, perhaps because we can visualize the perspective or whatever else the general viewer may not see.

A few years ago my wife and I were at a museum of Navy and Military artifacts from WWII, and she was looking at a display of field radios: Marveling at what was "portable" in those days. She kept wanting me to come look at the display, but I was being entertained by the schematics of some of the radios that were displayed nearby.

--ShopShoe
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on March 22, 2017, 12:38:58 PM
Chris--I have always been faintly interested in Stephenson reversing links. Not enough to really pay close attention to them.--Just enough to think, "Gee, that's rather neat." After seeing the ones in your 3d model, I went on an "in depth search" about them and even downloaded a 3d model from "Grabcad" to follow the workings a little more closely. Very interesting mechanism.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 22, 2017, 12:58:41 PM
Chris--I have always been faintly interested in Stephenson reversing links. Not enough to really pay close attention to them.--Just enough to think, "Gee, that's rather neat." After seeing the ones in your 3d model, I went on an "in depth search" about them and even downloaded a 3d model from "Grabcad" to follow the workings a little more closely. Very interesting mechanism.---Brian
One of the interesting things about that linkage is that they did not just run them at one end or the other. By coming in slightly from full travel, it reduces the travel on the valve, which changes the amount of steam inlet on each stroke. The farther you move in, the more that effect, until towards the middle of the travel you are not moving the valve at all. This gave some control of power vs steam used, sort of an early version of what the Corliss valve cutoff controls allow in much better form. Neat stuff.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Dan Rowe on March 22, 2017, 02:26:59 PM
Chris-

An ironic  thread about machining the bevel gears for a Lombard restoration over at PM:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/machining-bevel-gears-332469/?s=982f369009d6d1f6aa251517a2b5c5fd (http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/machining-bevel-gears-332469/?s=982f369009d6d1f6aa251517a2b5c5fd)

-Bob
Sounds like as much confusion on making model ones as full size ones! They got all wrapped around the pole confusing straight form and gleason form teeth.
 :cheers:

Chris,
You have the simpler task as you are simply making a whole set of parallel depth gears. The problem with gears made before the AGMA was formed in 1916 is there were a bunch of gear standards and the ratio of the addendum and the dedendum was not standard. This fact makes it hard to match a gear set with no easy way I know of to determine the correct specifications of the existing gear the guy is trying to match.

Dan
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: kvom on March 22, 2017, 05:05:43 PM
In looking at your model, I am wondering how motion of the eccentric straps get transmitted to the levers with the valve rod.  Certainly an interesting setup.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 22, 2017, 06:17:51 PM
In looking at your model, I am wondering how motion of the eccentric straps get transmitted to the levers with the valve rod.  Certainly an interesting setup.

Its a little hard to see in that view of the model. The rods from the eccentrics go forward to a lever below the line of the piston, making a lever up above move that moves the valve rod in and out. I think they had to put in this extra lever to get the moving parts of the Stephenson linkage down lower, so it would not hit the bottom of the boiler when in the full up position. This lever is called a rocker arm in the diagrams I have seen.

Here is another view, isolating out the valve components for one cylinder. With everything visible, it is tough to tell whats what, there is so much packed into a small space.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/b2a87g2iv/Engine_Bed_v58.jpg)
Okay, so the normal Stephenson linkage is there, with a set of eccentrics running up to the link bar, with a slot that lets is slide back and forth under control of the link from the control rod, which has a linkage up to the reversing lever in the cab.
The difference with this setup is that instead of the follower in the slot of the link bar being on the end of the valve rod directly, there is a pair of rocker arms in between. The two rocker arms are connected so they move together.

Hope that helps!

One thing I noticed on the original is that the joint from the upper rocker arm to the valve rod has no intermediate con-rod type link to it, so it does not allow for up/down movement as the rocker arm rocks. I am guessing that it was not needed since the movement is so short, so the up/down motion is very slight? Something I want to wiggle directly when I am there.

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 22, 2017, 08:37:40 PM
Finally back to cutting metal on the Hauler!   :cartwheel:

Started with a length of 1/2" stainless bar for the crankshaft, trued up the ends and drilled a center hole for the live center, and trimmed the ends down to 3/8" diameter, first one end
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8auja7evb/IMG_9706.jpg)
then the other - note that with the Sherline the smaller diameter on the first end lets it go much deeper into the chuck.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9eenm5zif/IMG_9707.jpg)
Then got out the compound slide, set it to 14 degrees, and cut the tapered portions where it goes back up to the full 1/2" diameter.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/obn4n6cqv/IMG_9708.jpg)
Then took a thin trueing cut down the center portion, taking off about 2 thou, to match the bore on the drive gear, which I had left slightly under 1/2" to allow for this knowing that the bar stock is not always quite a true round.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/litx35cef/IMG_9709.jpg)
The gear was then put in place with some Loctite retaining compound. I used the edge of the lathe tool to get it centered, measuring both sides back and forth. Once I had a good position, slid the gear down, applied the loctite, and ran it back against the tool while turning it to spread the goop. Let it set a while till it grabbed then removed it from the lathe.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/f6ertb9c7/IMG_9711.jpg)
And here it is sitting in place on the top of the differential gear:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/jgtfowefb/IMG_9712.jpg)
Took a measurement under the shaft to the engine bed rails, to doublecheck that the bearing block height that the 3D gave me was still right, and found that the 3D model showed it being higher. Even allowing for the gap for meshing of the gears, it is still a bit off. Not surprising given all the parts involved - gears, bearings, bearing blocks, mounting plates, bed rails, main rails... So, am adjusting the height of the bearing blocks that I will make from the plans to give a proper mesh of the teeth. Starting on the blocks next...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on March 22, 2017, 08:48:29 PM
Your a man after my own heart!!---If the part doesn't match the plan, then change the plan to match the part. Only those people who design in 3d cad and then build the parts they designed know how often that happens!!!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 22, 2017, 09:23:57 PM
Your a man after my own heart!!---If the part doesn't match the plan, then change the plan to match the part. Only those people who design in 3d cad and then build the parts they designed know how often that happens!!!

Isn't that why they invented shims and sandpaper?!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 22, 2017, 09:48:31 PM
Your a man after my own heart!!---If the part doesn't match the plan, then change the plan to match the part. Only those people who design in 3d cad and then build the parts they designed know how often that happens!!!

Isn't that why they invented shims and sandpaper?!

Yes. As well as alternative rulers.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on March 23, 2017, 01:51:30 AM
I bet you were glad to get back to cutting metal. I like the clever use of the lathe tool to register where the gear needed to go on the shaft. Filed that one away.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 23, 2017, 01:57:08 AM
I bet you were glad to get back to cutting metal. I like the clever use of the lathe tool to register where the gear needed to go on the shaft. Filed that one away.

Jim
Not sure where that one came from. I had slid the gear on to check the fit, started to measure to find center, and it kept slipping as I brought the calipers up. The toolpost was right there, so moved it in to hold against, and Voila! Or, Guitar!  :Lol: (get it, Voila, Viola... oh, never mind...)  :ShakeHead:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: MJM460 on March 23, 2017, 09:49:34 AM
Hi Chris,

Referring back to your comment on the rocker arm connection to the valve rods, this is similar to the monitor engines on another thread.  It has a short vertical slot instead of a close fitting hole in the rod end connector to allow for the vertical part of the rocker arm motion.   It would be pretty difficult to see this in looking at the original.  While it does not seem ideal due to the vertical friction force which will still tend give a little side load to the packing, it would be much better than trying to bend the valve rod as it passes through the packing. In any case it will be a wearing part and I would suggest some care in making the rod end and the pin easily replaceable.  I would also suggest making a spare set of pins and rod ends as part of your two years spares kit.  (You did order two years spares with this machine, didn't you?). 

Some sort of rod guide and Conrod type connection would seem better, but not true to original, and clearly one of the necessary compromises in fitting everything in on the original.  It is also a machine that would probably flex enough on rough conditions to offset any advantage in the extra complexity.

MJM460
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 23, 2017, 01:21:54 PM
Hi Chris,

Referring back to your comment on the rocker arm connection to the valve rods, this is similar to the monitor engines on another thread.  It has a short vertical slot instead of a close fitting hole in the rod end connector to allow for the vertical part of the rocker arm motion.   It would be pretty difficult to see this in looking at the original.  While it does not seem ideal due to the vertical friction force which will still tend give a little side load to the packing, it would be much better than trying to bend the valve rod as it passes through the packing. In any case it will be a wearing part and I would suggest some care in making the rod end and the pin easily replaceable.  I would also suggest making a spare set of pins and rod ends as part of your two years spares kit.  (You did order two years spares with this machine, didn't you?). 

Some sort of rod guide and Conrod type connection would seem better, but not true to original, and clearly one of the necessary compromises in fitting everything in on the original.  It is also a machine that would probably flex enough on rough conditions to offset any advantage in the extra complexity.

MJM460
I think I have an idea of how they did it. First, here is the connection at the top of the rocker arm to the valve rod, does not look like there is any vertical play in it, unless there is a slot in the top of the rod. But, I found the drawing they did, and the hole in the rod is just a round close fit on the bolt.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/oshj13f9j/Valve_Rod_Pivot.jpg)
What I did find that is interesting is that the valve slider itself has a slot in it rather than a hole:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/uutr5bt3b/Valve_Slider_Cross_Section.jpg)
and the valve rod has large washers and jam nuts on either side, so that there is no pressure on the slider from the nuts, but it can float. Since it is a balanced type valve, it presses against the cover plate as well as the valve seat, keeping it in place vertically.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/m9vu0etjb/Valve_Chest_Inside_View.jpg)
What I am wondering, is if they let the rod be arced through the gland fitting, and the connection at the valve slider slips to take up that up/down part of the motion. At the size of the rocker arm, and the short travel of the valve (only about 1.28" total), this arcing was slight enough that this was enough to handle it without bending the valve rod. The drawings I found do not give dimensions for the valve rod or the gland holes, so I can't be sure that there is clearance for any rocking motion.
I am going to send a question up to the folks at the museum, see if they can confirm if this is truly how it works.
If so, worked for them, but for the model, with a much smaller radius on the valve rocker, it would make sense to put in a con-rod type linkage, wouldn't it? Its a much smaller radius on the rocker, and a 0.106" travel, gotta run the math on that...

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 23, 2017, 02:17:57 PM
More info on the valve rod movement. I drew up the geometry involved in the CAD package, and found the following details (sorry Zee, math follows, and no pictures!  :ROFL: )

With a 12.5" long rocker arm on the original, pivoted in the center, and a 1.28" total travel on the valve rod, the pivot arm introduces a 0.03285" vertical deflection at either end. Not much, considering that the valve rod projects out from the valve gland about a foot and a half.

For the model sized version, there is a 0.9468" rocker arm, pivoted in the center, and a 0.106" total travel on the valve rod. That introduces a 0.00298" vertical deflection at either end of the travel, over about an inch and a half. Again not, much.

So, given that the valve gland as I will make it will have an o-ring seal, just a slight over-sizing of the holes through the gland will allow that tiny bit of angular deflection, and the adjusting nut in the valve slider (I am planning a typical model type valve-nut-in-the-center style valve slider, not the balanced slider like the original) can move that much with no problem, I think I can do without the extra link at the rocker arm, like the original.

If the travel was longer, more like the piston has, this would never work, but the valve motion is so small that I think it will be okay. Can always retrofit an extra link if it is a problem.

Does that sound right to you guys?
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 23, 2017, 06:31:38 PM
After the investigation into the valve rod movement this morning, did get some time in the shop to get the bearing blocks roughed out. I started with some 1/2" x 1" stainless bar, cut off enough for both bottom blocks and split another piece for the stock for the caps. After marking out the rough shape,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6tmv3ve9z/IMG_9713.jpg)
I went back and cut off the bulk of the excess material with the reciprocating saw:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xij7fom4n/IMG_9716.jpg)
To give you an idea of where these are going, here are the blocks sitting on the engine bed rails.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/vo6cxxz47/IMG_9714.jpg)

And for those who don't think (some types of) bar stock has internal stress from the manufacturing process, even these short sections showed a detectable amount of bowing on the flat surfaces that were on the outside of the bar. After shaping the inside edges, a light pass will be made to straighten those outside edges again.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 24, 2017, 01:16:51 AM
Continuing on with the bearing blocks for the crankshaft, milled down the sawn edges cap blanks, taking the last cut on the formerly-flat outside edge to straighten it again after it bowed slightly when splitting down the wider bar.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/r7dzz9kw7/IMG_9717.jpg)
Then moved on to taking the lower blocks down by taking the back end to shape:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/r7dzz9kw7/IMG_9717.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/a851k09on/IMG_9718.jpg)
then turning the blocks around and taking the front end down to size (left both ends slightly thick to allow for a flattening pass later)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bbp5vyubr/IMG_9719.jpg)
To mill the angled faces, used a 45 degree face on the ruler to set the parts in the vise,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5oxec8h6v/IMG_9720.jpg)
and then milled the short side in,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3yedaqznr/IMG_9721.jpg)
and finished with the long side
(https://s5.postimg.cc/o71qwgyyv/IMG_9722.jpg)
Here are the parts so far, ready to fit the caps and bore the shaft hole:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mta415zpj/IMG_9724.jpg)
And a shot of one up on the frame in the approximate spot it will sit:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xu5966ryf/IMG_9725.jpg)
Plenty done for one day, time for a cookie and some TV to fall asleep in front of...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on March 24, 2017, 01:46:54 AM
Wow, you do more in a day than I seem to do in a week or two! Beautiful....

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on March 24, 2017, 04:10:42 AM
Hi Chris,

 :popcornsmall:

Still here still having a fun ride.

On the valve front sounds like you've got it sorted, one suggestion make the valve "nut" from rod not the usual square material.......with rod it will fit nice & rotate just that little bit to help with the rod angle changes.

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: MJM460 on March 24, 2017, 06:11:02 AM
Hi Chris,

Your valve rod solution looks OK to me.  Especially with steamers valve nut idea.  I don't have experience using o- rings this way, but my reading suggests that many do.  I assume you will use a high temp viton so it stands the steam temperature.

Your great work is continuing in those bearing blocks.  I admire the way there never seems any impediments, you just get going.  You must work on some of those solutions in your sleep!

MJM460
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: paul gough on March 24, 2017, 07:01:35 AM
Hi Chris, Regarding your vertical displacement in the rocker arm, it is small at 3 thousandths. I would expect you will find it might actually be a bit different due to machining and fitting tolerance variations once you get it assembled. The usual arrangement would be to locate the centreline of the valve spindle halfway in relation to the vertical displacement in the arc the rocker, this allows 1 1/2 thou each way rather than 3 in one direction. This sort of tolerance might be hard to achieve, so I might suggest doing the best you can with machining then packing the rocker arm support, the cylinder bracket support or even a slightly different thickness gasket under the valve chamber walls depending which is the easiest or most satisfactory from your point of view. This might entail assembly-test-measure-disassembly-packing-reassembly-recheck, but it was how things were done with older steam locos because there was always a bit of variation that had to be accommodated. The accuracy achieved was just as good as CNC, but it was got after machining with filing, scraping and sometimes packing, this is the 'individuality' of steam locomotives. From my days as a machine tool maintenance fitter, very small but necessary adjustments when no very thin metallic packing is available can be had using good quality paper, made from rag is best but not absolutely essential. It is a bit intuitive as you need to 'guess' the crush. Believe it or not I have seen roll your own cigarette papers used to get perfect alignments.

One thing with the valve gear on the Lombard. I would be most interested to know if the eccentrics are set to give negative lead in full gear, this was reasonably common with locomotives using Stephensons valve gear. Its lead increases as one 'notches up' which is useful at speed but better starting can be achieved with negative lead. In the model this may be irrelevant but it might have been a design consideration with the full size one, if you could find out and enquire by how much I would be very grateful. Regards, Paul Gough.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 24, 2017, 12:29:50 PM
Hi Chris,

 :popcornsmall:

Still here still having a fun ride.

On the valve front sounds like you've got it sorted, one suggestion make the valve "nut" from rod not the usual square material.......with rod it will fit nice & rotate just that little bit to help with the rod angle changes.

Cheers Kerrin
I had not thought of that, neat idea, drill and tap through the side of the rod, right? Clever!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 24, 2017, 12:33:16 PM
Hi Chris,

Your valve rod solution looks OK to me.  Especially with steamers valve nut idea.  I don't have experience using o- rings this way, but my reading suggests that many do.  I assume you will use a high temp viton so it stands the steam temperature.

Your great work is continuing in those bearing blocks.  I admire the way there never seems any impediments, you just get going.  You must work on some of those solutions in your sleep!

MJM460
Yes, been using the viton rings since the Shay build, Kozo used them on all the shafts, works out great, gives some tolerance in the seals.


And I do get my best ideas late at night, learned long ago to write them down or they are gone in the morning!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 24, 2017, 12:38:40 PM
Hi Chris, Regarding your vertical displacement in the rocker arm, it is small at 3 thousandths. I would expect you will find it might actually be a bit different due to machining and fitting tolerance variations once you get it assembled. The usual arrangement would be to locate the centreline of the valve spindle halfway in relation to the vertical displacement in the arc the rocker, this allows 1 1/2 thou each way rather than 3 in one direction. This sort of tolerance might be hard to achieve, so I might suggest doing the best you can with machining then packing the rocker arm support, the cylinder bracket support or even a slightly different thickness gasket under the valve chamber walls depending which is the easiest or most satisfactory from your point of view. This might entail assembly-test-measure-disassembly-packing-reassembly-recheck, but it was how things were done with older steam locos because there was always a bit of variation that had to be accommodated. The accuracy achieved was just as good as CNC, but it was got after machining with filing, scraping and sometimes packing, this is the 'individuality' of steam locomotives. From my days as a machine tool maintenance fitter, very small but necessary adjustments when no very thin metallic packing is available can be had using good quality paper, made from rag is best but not absolutely essential. It is a bit intuitive as you need to 'guess' the crush. Believe it or not I have seen roll your own cigarette papers used to get perfect alignments.

One thing with the valve gear on the Lombard. I would be most interested to know if the eccentrics are set to give negative lead in full gear, this was reasonably common with locomotives using Stephensons valve gear. Its lead increases as one 'notches up' which is useful at speed but better starting can be achieved with negative lead. In the model this may be irrelevant but it might have been a design consideration with the full size one, if you could find out and enquire by how much I would be very grateful. Regards, Paul Gough.
Good tips! I don't know about the lead, will see what I can find out. For the height adjustment, I have a selection of thin shim stock, and I have used paper and also foil too in the past. Whatever makes it fit!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 24, 2017, 04:59:20 PM
More work on the crankshaft bearing blocks, centered up the caps on the mill with an edge finder,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/clrkordhj/IMG_9726.jpg)
spot drilled
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dpbp0py4n/IMG_9727.jpg)
and drilled the clearance holes for the bolts:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6ndreiuiv/IMG_9728.jpg)
then drilled a matching pattern of holes in the bottom blocks
(https://s5.postimg.cc/59m4j7v9j/IMG_9729.jpg)
and finished with the mounting holes in the bases
(https://s5.postimg.cc/48lvu3e9z/IMG_9730.jpg)
Here are the parts tapped and bolted up
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mquts2lfr/IMG_9732.jpg)
and showing where they go on the engine beds
(https://s5.postimg.cc/98nxfs9af/IMG_9731.jpg)
Next up will be to drill/bore the holes for the bearings, and make the bearings themselves.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on March 24, 2017, 06:48:15 PM
Really nice. If you stare at them long enough at this time on a Friday afternoon (beer thirty 8) they almost start to have "faces"  :lolb:. NS, Try it  :stir:

Eric
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 24, 2017, 07:21:29 PM
Really nice. If you stare at them long enough at this time on a Friday afternoon (beer thirty 8) they almost start to have "faces"  :lolb: . NS, Try it  :stir:

Eric
Now thats disturbing... Cause they DO!  :stickpoke:


Glad I finished boring the bearing holes before seeing this, or I would have been waiting for the scream as the bit went in its ear!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on March 24, 2017, 08:53:07 PM
Damn nice Dog, you just keep setting the scale bud and those bearing block are looking to cool. Those elfs are sure busy little fellows huh? :lolb:
Still following some great craftsmanship Dog!


Don  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 24, 2017, 08:57:16 PM
Damn nice Dog, you just keep setting the scale bud and those bearing block are looking to cool. Those elfs are sure busy little fellows huh? :lolb:
Still following some great craftsmanship Dog!


Don  :popcorn:
They sure are busy, I could sit and watch them make parts all day!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on March 25, 2017, 02:23:12 AM
Damn nice Dog, you just keep setting the scale bud and those bearing block are looking to cool. Those elfs are sure busy little fellows huh? :lolb:
Still following some great craftsmanship Dog!


Don  :popcorn:
They sure are busy, I could sit and watch them make parts all day!   :Lol:

I'm familiar with the concept of CNC, but now I'm starting to understand all about "CNE"...........aka "Crubey's Numerous Elves"!  :lolb:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 25, 2017, 01:50:15 PM
I'm familiar with the concept of CNC, but now I'm starting to understand all about "CNE"...........aka "Crubey's Numerous Elves"!  :lolb:

 :Lol:  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on March 25, 2017, 04:12:08 PM
That is a good one Jim!

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on March 25, 2017, 04:24:31 PM
Do the elves have a open or union shop?

Eric
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 25, 2017, 05:49:58 PM
Do the elves have a open or union shop?

Eric
Santas Elves Local 3.14159
You Wish 4Em, We Makem!


 :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on March 25, 2017, 06:02:55 PM
I bet the Christmas party is a hoot

Eric
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 25, 2017, 06:12:30 PM
I bet the Christmas party is a hoot

Eric
Some great videos, but a horrible mess to clean up the next day! You won't believe the mess reindeer make!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 26, 2017, 08:31:54 PM
Some more done on the bearing blocks - started by mounting the blocks in the 4-jaw chuck to drill the shaft holes. I was about to use the mill to bore them, but decided to try the lathe, since I find it is quicker than messing with changing the settings on the boring head over and over. It turns out that the 4-jaw JUST had enough travel to hold the blocks without having to reverse the jaws. I marked the joint between the base and the cap blocks for where the center of the hole should be, and used the live center to check the position, it took some fiddling with the jaws to get it properly centered, but it held very solid.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/opf9vai2v/IMG_9734.jpg)
Once positioned, drilled a starter hole first,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9w0majabr/IMG_9736.jpg)
then came back and bored it out to 1/2" diameter:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3wcv6vpjb/IMG_9737.jpg)
And what looks like a two-piece cap in those photos is just the tool marks left by the end mill on top of the cap, that really is just a single wide cap.
Here are the blocks set in position on the rail:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4m0pgcwef/IMG_9738.jpg)
Next up will be the bearings (bronze), and bolting the blocks down to the engine bed. It looks like I have the fit about right, wont know till the bearings are in if I need to shave off a little from the bottom of the blocks or shim them a hair to get the gears meshing well.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on March 26, 2017, 08:37:38 PM
Looks really good. I have learned the same lesson as you in regards to boring a hole. It is SO much quicker and easier in the lathe.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 26, 2017, 09:57:28 PM
Nice work Chris.

 :popcorn: Still following along.

For some reason.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 26, 2017, 09:58:16 PM
Nice work Chris.

 :popcorn: Still following along.

For some reason.
:ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 26, 2017, 10:00:04 PM
Looks really good. I have learned the same lesson as you in regards to boring a hole. It is SO much quicker and easier in the lathe.
Good, so it wasn't just me!

Especially on the small mill, the vibration from the boring head, even at slow speeds, just seems like it would introduce non-roundness in the holes, and it is a tricky one to get exact hole sizes out of. The boring bar on the lathe just does a better job with this setup.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on March 26, 2017, 11:25:32 PM
Boring head on the mill doesn't make out of round holes, but the dial is very hard to see because it is so small, which makes it very easy to overshoot the bore you actually wanted.---Plus the fact that you have to shut the mill off after every pass to crank the cutting tool out a little bit more. It gets the job done, but it is way slower than the lathe.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 26, 2017, 11:41:14 PM
That's good to know, thanks!


I know that I am a long way from done on this project, but thinking ahead to a project or three down the road, I have gotten hold of some plans for the Stanley 20hp engine, prints came today, it would make a wonderful scaled down model. Don't know what scale, need some time drooling near (not onto, hopefully) the plans. My version of casting fondling! The main body casting would be tough to make without castings, that will need some thought. Or make a wooden pattern and get it cast. Dunno.


Anyway, back to the Hauler!


Parts to make and months to go before I sleep. That line is for you Telefon movie fans...  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 27, 2017, 08:16:27 PM
On to the bearings... turned the outside of a piece of bearing bronze with a parting tool to make the shallow recesses to fit the bearing block holes, two sections for the two bearings:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5na4wys5j/IMG_9743.jpg)
then drilled through just the first section (to leave the part strong enough for boring and parting off)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/n1yyizeo7/IMG_9744.jpg)
and then bored out to size to match the crankshaft, just through the first section:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8k1raznd3/IMG_9745.jpg)
and then parted the first one off, and repeated the drill/bore for the second bearing:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/a0d9t4q9z/IMG_9746.jpg)
I laid out the mounting holes in the engine bed rails, and drilled and tapped them:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qcnbiv4lj/IMG_9748.jpg)
and test fit the bearing blocks:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/s5q876ps7/IMG_9749.jpg)
along with the differential:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/f2ulnwzk7/IMG_9750.jpg)
All fit nicely, once I shimmed it for the correct height - did not quite get the shaft height measurement in the bearing block correct, but a little shim stock later it meshes nicely. Right now, I am leaving the engine beds off the main rails - saves time putting them on/taking them off for every part.

So, with the bearing blocks done, I can move on to the eccentric cams, then move forward (literally) on the bed rails to the Stephenson linkage parts...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on March 27, 2017, 08:32:39 PM
Nice work Chris...... :ThumbsUp:

Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: scc on March 27, 2017, 08:53:27 PM
Rapid and quality workmanship :ThumbsUp:    This is going to be a wonderful machine.      Regards             Terry
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Nick_G on March 27, 2017, 10:17:22 PM
.
This is an awesome build and very nicely documented so others can benefit.

Thanks,  Nick
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Johnmcc69 on March 27, 2017, 10:59:00 PM
Really nice attention to detail Chris, really exceptional work!

 John
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 27, 2017, 11:13:31 PM
I have gotten hold of some plans for the Stanley 20hp engine, prints came today, it would make a wonderful scaled down model.

Oo! Oo! Give me a pic or link! Gimme gimme.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 27, 2017, 11:28:45 PM
Thanks guys!

Just spent the afternoon generating the 2d blueprints from the 3d model of the rest of the engine, lots and lots of parts to come! Had some issues with Fusion360 locking up, am in touch with their tech support (who have always been great to deal with, they squish bugs pretty quick).

------

Zee: Here is a link to what the Stanley engines look like:

http://www.stanleymotorcarriage.com/SteamEngine/SteamEngineGeneral.htm (http://www.stanleymotorcarriage.com/SteamEngine/SteamEngineGeneral.htm)

The different pages on that site give lots of details and pictures, very interesting stuff.

As for the plans, I got them in advance of them going on general sale, they were measured from an engine in the Stanley museum in Maine. Sorry, but I don't have the rights to distribute them. I'll keep you posted when they go on sale. The plans are for the full sized engine, not a model of them, figure that someday I could scale the measurements down and do a model.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 27, 2017, 11:48:17 PM
Thanks Chris. I'd done a little googling and you've confirmed that what I was looking is what I was looking at.  ;D

I recall (I think young) woman coming on the forum that was interested in a Stanley. Maybe she'll come back when you start this.
You're going to do it right? Right?

It's a great project.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 28, 2017, 12:08:26 AM
Thanks Chris. I'd done a little googling and you've confirmed that what I was looking is what I was looking at.  ;D

I recall (I think young) woman coming on the forum that was interested in a Stanley. Maybe she'll come back when you start this.
You're going to do it right? Right?

It's a great project.
Its most likely definitely a possibility! I think!   :facepalm:


Its a couple items down the list, with some figuring out to do, but would make a great project.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on March 28, 2017, 01:56:24 AM
I am just getting caught up again with your log Chris. The progress is impressive and the parts beautiful!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 28, 2017, 02:39:16 AM
I am just getting caught up again with your log Chris. The progress is impressive and the parts beautiful!!

Bill
Thanks Bill! Welcome back!    :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 28, 2017, 06:18:48 PM
Now to get eccentric (quiet back there Zee!)...

I was not able to determine the angle between the eccentric cams in each pair from the photos, or from the museum (theirs were already on the crank, did not need to be redone), so rather than make them as one piece for the pair, I decided to make each cam as a seperate part so they could be adjusted individually for best running. This actually made the construction simpler, since I could gang them up and cut all of them at once with one setup.
Started with a length of 5/8" stainless bar centered up in the 4-jaw chuck, and turned it down to the size of the outer cam. Made a shallow end hole for the live center (did not want it too large, and interfere with drilling the offset hole). Then came back with the parting tool, and cut the center grooves in each cam, as well as marking where the side hub and parting cuts would be made.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/71ayjr66f/IMG_9752.jpg)
Then I got the dial indicator back out and moved one axis of the 4-jaw over by the throw distance from center of 0.053":
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5arxi9onb/IMG_9753.jpg)
Then drilled the new starter for the offset hole
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3x4w0perr/IMG_9755.jpg)
and drilled the starter for boring, going just deep enough to get past the first cam to leave the rest of the bar at full strength for the coming operations
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gpt00mqdj/IMG_9756.jpg)
followed (you guessed it) by boring the hole out to size
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6494omk1z/IMG_9757.jpg)
Next step was to take the side hub down, leaving it thick enough for a set screw
(https://s5.postimg.cc/btpd8xq87/IMG_9758.jpg)
and finally parting it off. Since it was overhanging the chuck by a bit, I did the interrupted portion of the cut with the live center in place
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9263ibrpj/IMG_9761.jpg)
and then finished with it removed
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mht47s07b/IMG_9759.jpg)
Then the drilling/boring/etc steps were repeated for each of the other cams.
Here are the four cams all cut, being test fit on the crankshaft. I did have to trim the length on one that was a bit long, keeping it all from fitting in the space between the bearings.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/zbr614dmv/IMG_9762.jpg)
Last step on the cams will be to drill and tap for a set screw in the hubs....


Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 28, 2017, 10:18:07 PM
Now to get eccentric (quiet back there Zee!)...

 ::) Who? Me?
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 28, 2017, 10:31:42 PM
Now to get eccentric (quiet back there Zee!)...

 ::) Who? Me?
No, you're good, I meant your evil twin zeepy!   :lolb:


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 28, 2017, 11:24:33 PM
Quick update - got the holes drilled/tapped in the eccentric cams:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/l6pyd1tzb/IMG_9764.jpg)
and test fit on the crankshaft. Just need to cut the screws down a bit!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/c07nproqv/IMG_9765.jpg)
The cams are not set to proper angles, just put in place to test the fit. All good, so on to the Stephenson links...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on March 29, 2017, 03:56:28 AM
Hi Chris,
 Oh yeah it's coming along...... :popcorn: :popcorn:

On the Stanley front, thanks for the link to there's lots of info there. Would like to get more on the White that a friend has, the White site has lots but not back to his vintage.
My ME club had a Stanley mounted up it what is know as "The Sauna". Aka small shed with, at the time wood fired x dry cleaner boiler driving a Tangey, the Stanley, a steam pump & various small models. The boiler has been convert to liquid fuel, diesel, now...no colder in the Sauna but not as much hassle getting wood either. Any way back a good few years we built a, think it was 2/3 size steam truck & put the Stanley in it. Great fun to drive around, frequent stops to get up steam as the burner wasn't man enuff for the task! It was sold some years back so can't go check it out if required by you OR Zee, but I do know we're it lives!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 29, 2017, 01:35:25 PM
Kerrin - sounds like great fun!

Looking back at my picture of the bearing blocks, just realized that I did not finish shaping the tops of the caps, need to mill back the ends and round the middle section. First on the list for today!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 29, 2017, 03:42:33 PM
Got the top caps of the bearing blocks shaped - took the sides down on the mill
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5bewez7k7/IMG_9766.jpg)
and rounded the middle on the belt sander
(https://s5.postimg.cc/isbv4e9jb/IMG_9767.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on March 29, 2017, 05:12:47 PM
Looking good Chris. 

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 29, 2017, 08:03:17 PM
Thanks Bob!

I was corresponding with the folks up at the museum, and got pointed to one of the web site pages that I had missed before, showing the earlier restoration work on the hauler as a series of photos (click on the numbered captions down the side to view the photos). Very interesting stuff, turns out they cast new cylinders for the engine, and made up new roller chain, and got replacement drive chain from the original manufacturer. Very interesting sequence.

http://www.umit.maine.edu/~herbert.crosby/LOMBARD/frame.htm

The higher level of the web site is here:
http://www.umit.maine.edu/~herbert.crosby/lombard2/
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 29, 2017, 08:36:36 PM
On to the eccentric followers. I cut lengths of a 1/4" thick brass bar and milled the ends square and to length, and sketched out the shape on them to help keep things oriented during milling.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/pp61gx5tz/IMG_9768.jpg)
Then milled the outlines out on the bottom caps, a pair at a time (more than two at a time was too hard to align with each other)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ginqtn0lj/IMG_9770.jpg)
The rounded portion in the center will be done last.
Also milled the top cap outlines,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5x3vhmu9z/IMG_9771.jpg)
including the angled section that comes in to the width of the arm
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9hzr0uytj/IMG_9772.jpg)
Here are the parts so far:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/manv0safb/IMG_9773.jpg)
Next step will be to drill/tap the bolt holes to join the pairs, then can start on the center bores...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 30, 2017, 12:04:35 AM
What? That's it? That's all you got?

Your elves are slacking off. Aren't you feeding them?

I probably shouldn't have said that. You... :cussing:...like Kim will probably point out that you're least making parts.  :facepalm2:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on March 30, 2017, 12:20:18 AM
No, that was me and....

You know that you can set the mini lathe right on the dinner table Carl.

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 30, 2017, 02:05:49 AM
What? That's it? That's all you got?

Your elves are slacking off. Aren't you feeding them?

I probably shouldn't have said that. You... :cussing: ...like Kim will probably point out that you're least making parts.  :facepalm2:
Some of the elves are on vacation..  :ROFL:
Actually, lots of other stuff going on. This month also built a new rc minisubmarine, had rifle league, 2 pistol leagues, and 2 archery leagues, did some furniture refinishing, and did a bunch of vacation planning to get away from all this hard work!  :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 30, 2017, 02:06:29 AM
No, that was me and....

You know that you can set the mini lathe right on the dinner table Carl.

-Bob
Good point!!   :stickpoke:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on March 30, 2017, 03:52:48 AM
What? That's it? That's all you got?

Your elves are slacking off. Aren't you feeding them?

I probably shouldn't have said that. You... :cussing:...like Kim will probably point out that you're least making parts.  :facepalm2:

Zee.............at least Chris is making parts!  :LittleDevil:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 30, 2017, 04:02:32 AM
What? That's it? That's all you got?

Your elves are slacking off. Aren't you feeding them?

I probably shouldn't have said that. You... :cussing: ...like Kim will probably point out that you're least making parts.  :facepalm2:

Zee.............at least Chris is making parts!  :LittleDevil:

Jim
I'm still envious of Zees big new shop!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on March 30, 2017, 04:56:11 AM
What? That's it? That's all you got?

Your elves are slacking off. Aren't you feeding them?

I probably shouldn't have said that. You... :cussing: ...like Kim will probably point out that you're least making parts.  :facepalm2:

Zee.............at least Chris is making parts!  :LittleDevil:

Jim
I'm still envious of Zees big new shop!

I'm going to be even more envious when I see that new lathe and mill sitting in it! (do we have an emoji for jealous?)

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: kvom on March 30, 2017, 12:35:02 PM
I won't be impressed until I see Zee's lathe and mill with some chips lying on them (and I don't mean potato chips).   :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 30, 2017, 08:03:11 PM
A bunch more done on the eccentric followers today. Started by drilling through the side tabs for the bolts - through the top section with clearance drill, and all the way through with tap drill.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wawjlwptz/IMG_9774.jpg)
With all the hols drilled and tapped, assembled the halves,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rqad6z64n/IMG_9775.jpg)
and centered them up in the 4 jaw chuck to bore the center holes. I used some bar stock during setup on each to bring the faces forward of the jaws, since I will also be thinning the parts after boring.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mswslv45j/IMG_9776.jpg)
Once each part was centered up, a starter hole was drilled
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rsu8tt9s7/IMG_9777.jpg)
followed by boring the center out to the size to match the slots in the cams, then the near side of the hole was taken out larger to match the lips on the cams.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/iz3ccpmtj/IMG_9779.jpg)
After boring the first side, the face of the part was taken down (the bar stock was slightly thicker than the designed part). Then, the part was turned around in the chuck, checked for center, and the second side taken out to match the cam lip, and that face taken down like the first side was. Here is what the cross section looks like at this point:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/68z3zmevb/IMG_9780.jpg)
The raised section in the center will ride in the slot in the cams. After a test fit,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/57yvahxvr/IMG_9782.jpg)
then the side lobes were taken down to final width
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6bizmgiiv/IMG_9783.jpg)
and the upper ends notched for the arms to fit in flush.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wl42594g7/IMG_9784.jpg)
Here are the parts so far, with the blanks for the arms cut to rough length, and one end had its corners rounded on the sander to fit snug into the slots in the top of the followers.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/f98axk0cn/IMG_9786.jpg)
Next steps will be to make and silver solder on some blocks at the upper ends of the arms, to make the clevis at that end that goes around the Stephenson slide link. Once the arms are complete, they will be attached to the followers, probably silver soldered into the slots since there is no room for a through bolt, and 1/16" is a little thin for a screw to hold well enough. Don't think I have had occasion yet to silver solder brass to steel, but from what I've read that should work okay. I hope...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on March 31, 2017, 12:06:59 AM
More great looking parts Chris!! Been meaning to ask....is that live center Sherline or an alternate vendor and if so who's? I like the looks of it.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 31, 2017, 12:51:06 AM
More great looking parts Chris!! Been meaning to ask....is that live center Sherline or an alternate vendor and if so who's? I like the looks of it.

Bill
Thanks Bill.


That center is one I found online. Little Machine Shop has a very similar one, but I forget where I got mine. It has a longer tip, so the cutter has room in front of the main body, unlike the stock one, also more rigid.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on March 31, 2017, 12:53:49 AM
Yeah, I have the Sherline one and you are right ...not much room in front of the body, that is what I liked about yours. I will check out LMS. Thanks,

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 31, 2017, 01:36:59 AM
Yeah, I have the Sherline one and you are right ...not much room in front of the body, that is what I liked about yours. I will check out LMS. Thanks,

Bill
Oh, there was one thing I had to do, cut the taper section shorter for the sherline, which uses a normal mt0 taper but the length is about half. Easy to cut with hacksaw, cleaned up on grinder.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on March 31, 2017, 01:40:55 AM
Easy enough to do, thanks for the info.
Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on March 31, 2017, 03:30:24 AM
More great looking parts Chris!! Been meaning to ask....is that live center Sherline or an alternate vendor and if so who's? I like the looks of it.

Bill
Thanks Bill.


That center is one I found online. Little Machine Shop has a very similar one, but I forget where I got mine. It has a longer tip, so the cutter has room in front of the main body, unlike the stock one, also more rigid.

Here's the one that Little Machine Shop has: http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2714&category=
I've run into those same clearance issues, so may have to get one of these myself.

Jim

PS: The parts look good Chris.  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 31, 2017, 02:00:09 PM
The LmS one is definitely different than the one I found. Mine has a body diameter of 1.46, tip to body distance 1.065, max tip diameter .065.


I'll do some digging and see if can get the source. The lms one may work too, check your tool width to its tip to body distance.



Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 31, 2017, 02:07:05 PM
Found the reciept, mine IS the LMS one. I think they just changed the stle of the body. They quote a short tip to body distance, but I think that they measured from the base of the tip cone, I measured from the actual tip. Same part number as mine too, maybe they just changed supplier.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 31, 2017, 11:00:16 PM
Almost done with the eccentric followers now. Today started with making the wider end of the arms that go around the stephenson link tabs. Since making up small parts is easier if left on the larger bar, I grabbed a length of 1/8" stainless steel flat bar, and milled a recess down the end, which will form the inside of the jaws.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/h0jcsv747/IMG_9787.jpg)
After cutting the four parts out with a hacksaw, leaving them a bit wide for cleanup after soldering:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/hrc2yn9hj/IMG_9788.jpg)
Drilled/tapped some holes to attach them for silver soldering:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/acmr69nlz/IMG_9789.jpg)
and did likewise at the base end of the arms to attach them to the followers:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xfda5fp3b/IMG_9790.jpg)
then after some silver solder, pickling, and wire brushing:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rsgx7ymkn/IMG_9791.jpg)
it was then time to go around and mill off all the rough edges of the jaws, and mill off all the bolt heads used to secure things for soldering:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ub2m8n8av/IMG_9792.jpg)
then some time on the belt sander to round the follower bottom ends and the tops of the jaws, they are ready to lay out and drill the holes to bolt them to the link tabs. Enough for one day though...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/f3mmoagg7/IMG_9793.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on March 31, 2017, 11:39:32 PM
Recently we were discussing the longer nose live center I got from LMS. Just looked at the Sherline site, and they have a new live center with an extended nose, they say designed for turning pool cues. It has a smaller tip to clear the lathe tool, which is very handy on long thin parts. Here is the page for it:
http://sherline.com/product/1182pc-pool-cue-live-center/ (http://sherline.com/product/1182pc-pool-cue-live-center/)

It has an MT0 base, so will fit the normal tailstock. It is $88, which seems a bit pricy, but it is a handy shape. May order one and see...
(http://sherline.com/Wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/1182pc_pic-468x351.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 01, 2017, 02:34:21 AM
Oh, and I had been wondering about silver soldering brass to the stainless steel for the arms, was no issue at all, went very smooth.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on April 01, 2017, 03:45:38 AM
Recently we were discussing the longer nose live center I got from LMS. Just looked at the Sherline site, and they have a new live center with an extended nose, they say designed for turning pool cues. It has a smaller tip to clear the lathe tool, which is very handy on long thin parts. Here is the page for it:
http://sherline.com/product/1182pc-pool-cue-live-center/ (http://sherline.com/product/1182pc-pool-cue-live-center/)

It has an MT0 base, so will fit the normal tailstock. It is $88, which seems a bit pricy, but it is a handy shape. May order one and see...
(http://sherline.com/Wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/1182pc_pic-468x351.jpg)

Looks great Chris, thanks. I just added it to my running Sherline Direct Shopping Cart. I'm glad to see that Sherline is still coming up with new accessories.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on April 01, 2017, 04:18:21 AM
Ya know, you guys could make your own long nose center. Or make a new 'insert' for an existing one if you can get one apart.

I only have had one live center, a Skoda, that I bought when I bought the lathe back in '83. It comes apart very easily which has made it simple to keep clean. But that also makes it easy to make a new "insert" for. When another, identical, Skoda showed up on eBay for really cheap I dove on it. I'll be making a new "insert" for that one.

Here are some pics so you can see how easy this one will be. You may be able to find something similar.....????

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on April 01, 2017, 04:39:45 AM
Hi Pete,
 Hope you are going to post up how you did it!

Chris,
That center sure looks nice! I got a revolving center with interchangeable tips, works fine. Should make some more different sizes but usually manage with what's in the kit.

The eccentric look great!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on April 01, 2017, 05:18:07 AM
Hi Pete,
 Hope you are going to post up how you did it!

Cheers Kerrin

I'll do that. I could be interesting depending on the heat treat! The second largest diameter is the inner race for the big needle bearing... I may figure out a pre-hardened sleeve.... I dunno yet!

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 01, 2017, 02:18:19 PM
On some of the sherline centers, they say that they are not able to be disassembled. At least and be able to be reassembled again!  I have seen some with interchangeable tips, but never one for a mt0 taper.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on April 01, 2017, 02:22:14 PM
I am looking forward to the Stephenson links. They are quite fascinating in their operation.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 01, 2017, 02:29:29 PM
I am looking forward to the Stephenson links. They are quite fascinating in their operation.---Brian
Me too! I think I have worked out the sequence to get the follower arms to right length and also the links to the proper radiuses, using a jig on the rotary table. If not done symmetrically the valves are not moving evenly in both forward and reverse. The links will be steel.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 02, 2017, 08:56:19 PM
Today was Stephenson Link day - got quite a bit done. After figuring out the sequence of steps and the simple jig needed to make it work, started by making the jig. It is a block of aluminum flat stock with a round bit of brass screwed to one end to align it in the top of the rotary table, with a pair of holes for t-nut bolts on the sides to hold it down to the table, plus some threaded holes in the middle for a hold-down bar.
Bottom view:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rqatqcn2f/IMG_9796.jpg)
Top view, with it holding one of the eccentric followers for drilling the end of the arm:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/y59un0ts7/IMG_9797.jpg)
And the top view with the hold-down nut for the follower base removed to show it has a shank the size of the follower center, and a flange to hold the part to the table. Also, the cross bar to hold down the arm has a shallow notch to keep the arm straight (does not show in the photos).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7b9r1jemf/IMG_9800.jpg)
Once the jig was made, the rotary table was centered under the mill head using a bar fit in the center hole of the rotary table and an edge finding tool:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/yfhd6d8ef/IMG_9795.jpg)
With it centered, the Y axis locked down, and the handwheels zeroed out, the jig was bolted down to the rotary table and the mill table moved over to the distance to the hole in the end. The X-axis was locked down there, and all 4 followers had the ends drilled for the pivot bolts (which will be 3-48 thread on the ends, straight shaft in the middle).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8p1dwudvr/IMG_9799.jpg)
Two of the four arms have the clevis on the opposite side, so to drill those a spacer was put under the arm:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4v7xnowjr/IMG_9801.jpg)
With the arms all drilled, it was time to move on to the slide link part. On this engine, there is the link itself with the arched slot down the middle, and there also is a control plate that bolts alongside it with a gap between - that plate has the connection to the control rod that moves the link between forward and reverse. In lots of models, like the Stuart engines, there is a pair of rods alongside the link instead of this plate. For this model, I am following how the Lombards were done.
To start, I cut out two wide bars for the links, and two narrow ones for the control plates. They are bolted together at the outer ends, 28.4 degrees apart. These bolt holes will be used to hold the links to the jig for all the milling steps to come. So, I clamped the pairs of plates to the jig, offset the table 14.2 degrees to either side, and drilled the clearance holes through the plates, stopping when the drill just went into the jig.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/oecix1vbb/IMG_9802.jpg)
Same was done for the control plates:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/r9pm3wzbb/IMG_9803.jpg)
then switched to the tap drill size and drilled/tapped the jig itself:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/i3bwudjgn/IMG_9804.jpg)
Then the control plates were bolted down to the jig using those holes, and the outer edge milled to its arc:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dvh4lmi13/IMG_9805.jpg)
That was done in a series of shallow cuts, moving the mill table to the side a little at a time and using the rotary table knob to mill across the part. Then the inside edge was done the same way, taking the part to its finished width:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/c4y3k50hz/IMG_9806.jpg)
And finally the ends were trimmed back:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/m3j26m9xj/IMG_9807.jpg)
Still need to round end ends, which will be done on the sander, the hole for the control rod link needs to be drilled in the middle of the plate, and the center section needs to be milled thinner. That will come later.
Next up I bolted down the link blanks, and milled off the outside edge:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xtwzo02pz/IMG_9809.jpg)
and chain drilled for the slot to remove the bulk of the material. The slot runs for 20 degrees of arc, so the drilling was done 10 degrees each side of center:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/e0kvvapc7/IMG_9810.jpg)
Also chain drilled around the lower tabs and the lower edge of the link:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ooomu4zbb/IMG_9811.jpg)
Next step was to start nibbling away at the lower edges with a small end mill. I wanted to do the outside shape before finishing the slot, just in case the parts moved from internal stresses as the outsides of the bar were milled away. The center slot is the critical shape, so did that last.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gkgipecw7/IMG_9812.jpg)
Cleaned up the ends:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/or8igz2yv/IMG_9813.jpg)
and finally milled out the center slot, taking it in several shallow passes:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bocvxpcqv/IMG_9814.jpg)
Then drilled the holes in the tabs for the pivot bolts. Nice thing about this setup is that the center slot and the tab holes all are concentric with the center of the rotary table. If the arms or the link have different lengths in one end or the other, the valves will travel different distances in forward vs reverse.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ln2fxxbk7/IMG_9815.jpg)
And milled off the ends of the tabs:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/62v27e1fr/IMG_9816.jpg)
Here are the parts so far:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xeqb8q66f/IMG_9817.jpg)
Still to be done on the links is to mill the tabs down to thickness to fit in the clevises in the arms, and to round the ends of the links and tabs on the sander.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mgf1qjhl3/IMG_9818.jpg)
All in all, quite a good days work, the jig worked perfectly to keep all the shapes consistant.
 ^-^
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 02, 2017, 09:16:34 PM
That was fascinating.
Nice job showing how to do it.  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 02, 2017, 09:31:01 PM
That was fascinating.
Nice job showing how to do it.  :ThumbsUp:
Thanks Zee!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on April 02, 2017, 09:38:29 PM
Very intuitive there Dog, ......I..........like......... :Love:


Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 02, 2017, 09:41:18 PM
Very intuitive there Dog, ......I..........like......... :Love:


Don
Thanks Don - it took some figuring and sketching to get the order of things worked out so that I could keep the same setup of the jig throughout, but it was worth the time to work it out.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 02, 2017, 09:56:41 PM
but it was worth the time to work it out.

I hope you paid him well.  ;D
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 02, 2017, 10:03:06 PM
but it was worth the time to work it out.

I hope you paid him well.  ;D


Fortunately Elfbert Elfstein works for cookies!!


 :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on April 02, 2017, 10:15:46 PM
Nice fixturing on the rt Chris.

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 02, 2017, 10:49:06 PM
but it was worth the time to work it out.

I hope you paid him well.  ;D


Fortunately Elfbert Elfstein works for cookies!!


 :lolb:

Currency comes in many forms.
T has not figured out that I'd do anything, anything, for her mac-n-cheese.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 03, 2017, 01:21:30 AM
I can barely keep up with you Chris but still out here on the fringes checking in often.  Thanks for the additional Sherline link too. That does see a bit pricey but will still check it out. I don't visit their site as often as I should to keep up with new offerings.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 03, 2017, 02:19:48 AM
Thanks Bill. I happened to check their site shortly after they put the new center up. I threw one in on an order for other bits, will let you know how it is.


Tonight was one of our RC submarine runs, got my new minisub out for first try. Half a dozen ballast tweaks and it ran great. Will put up a video tomorrow sometime...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 03, 2017, 02:35:10 AM
Oh cool!! As to the sub I mean. I did check out both the LMS and sherline links. The LMS one sure doesnt look like yours so I suspect they changed vendors. The sherline one is interesting. Will look forward to your review of it.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on April 03, 2017, 08:26:27 AM
Hi Chris,
 Well on the way to the plant this morning I noticed the guy down the road has got his maize in! Means the  :popcorn: can't be too far away......just watched the weather won't be in the next couple of days they are forecasting 200 - 250 mm of rain the mountain is due for nearly double that.... thanks to X cyclone Debbie.... our average for the month is 120mm.

Hope they can get the  :popcorn: in soon given the rate you are progressing I'm running out! Good how to make those bits, tricky little suckers!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 03, 2017, 02:16:35 PM
Hi Chris,
 Well on the way to the plant this morning I noticed the guy down the road has got his maize in! Means the  :popcorn: can't be too far away......just watched the weather won't be in the next couple of days they are forecasting 200 - 250 mm of rain the mountain is due for nearly double that.... thanks to X cyclone Debbie.... our average for the month is 120mm.

Hope they can get the  :popcorn: in soon given the rate you are progressing I'm running out! Good how to make those bits, tricky little suckers!

Cheers Kerrin
We just got hit with a few inches of rain in a day here, everything is greening up quick with the temperature going up finally. All the snow is gone now.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 03, 2017, 04:10:30 PM
Well, when you crank this beast up it will have to be with the front wheels then rather than the skis :)

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: scc on April 03, 2017, 09:12:01 PM
Valve gear is NICE :praise2:           Regards     Terry
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 03, 2017, 10:00:00 PM
Well, when you crank this beast up it will have to be with the front wheels then rather than the skis :)

Bill
Well, never know here, we got a snow storm in July once. Though the snow melted really fast! Hopefully it is over for the year!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 03, 2017, 10:01:58 PM
Valve gear is NICE :praise2:           Regards     Terry
Thanks Terry! I am very pleased with how it is turning out. Looking forward to getting the support brackets and links made. Nothing done on it today, over working on the porch at my mother's house instead.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 03, 2017, 11:04:54 PM
As promised, some pictures and video of my new Delphin minisub RC model. It was a German experimental one man sub in WW-II, never went into production. It is a very small model, the radio and motor are pretty tightly packed in - fit INSIDE my toolbox to take it to the pool last night.

Video of it after some experimentation to get it balanced properly:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7h_0Jn3bdA
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 03, 2017, 11:20:18 PM
Nifty.

What kind of radio and how deep can the sub go under control?
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 03, 2017, 11:42:52 PM
Nifty.

What kind of radio and how deep can the sub go under control?
We use the lower frequencies like 75mhz or lower, the newer 2.4ghz ones won't penetrate the water. Actual depth depends on the water. Heavily chlorinated pools you can lose signal about 3 feet down,  pools with other chemistry 6 or 8 is good. Fresh water at least that, usually limited by visibility.
This sub is using 3 channels, speed, rudder, dive planes. Others can use more, with bow planes, ballast pumps, missiles, torpedoes... This one is a dynamic diver, meaning it has to be moving to submerge, others are static divers with ballast tanks, can control depth by pumping water in and out. Check out the Subcommittee forum site, lots of info.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 04, 2017, 01:33:03 AM
Check out the Subcommittee forum site, lots of info.

Yes. I've looked a number of times. Really neat stuff.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 04, 2017, 04:46:34 PM
Next stage on the Stephenson links was to mill the tabs down to final thickness, to fit in the clevises on the ends of the follower arms. They are offset, one flush to one side, the other flush to the other, and half the thickness of the link. So, milled one tab down, flipped the part end for end, and milled the other tab.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mg6bifjrb/IMG_9819.jpg)
The cover plates need to be half thickness in the center portions, so they went on the fixture and were milled out as well, leaving the ends full thickness. The ends will be rounded separately, so they were left with just a square edge in this operation.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/oys0j45hj/IMG_9820.jpg)
Another little jig, just a scrap of round bar with a 3-48 hole in the end and a 2-56 bolt off to the edge for the part to push against while milling the end round. This was done in two steps, first rounding the protruding part all the way around, then rounding the outer end to match.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/h7bakk1c7/IMG_9823.jpg)
One thing I forgot to do while the parts were on the fixture was to drill/tap the hole for the control link to connect to, went back and did that...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/r5w971arr/IMG_9824.jpg)
Here are the parts so far.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4ih00vv7r/IMG_9825.jpg)
and test fit with the crankshaft:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8g49qai13/IMG_9826.jpg)
I think next step is to make up a batch of shoulder bolts and nuts to assemble all this properly, and to make the shorter bolts for eccentrics too. Then I can move on to the control rod assemblies and their bases.
Have not shown it in a while, here is where this is all going. The blue and green linkages in the center are the next parts.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/b2a87g2iv/Engine_Bed_v58.jpg)


Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on April 04, 2017, 06:42:19 PM
Well it's for sure you got it going on Chris. Just down right great machining Dog! I am going to enjoy seeing this thing running..... :praise2:


Don


Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 04, 2017, 11:15:50 PM
Well it's for sure you got it going on Chris. Just down right great machining Dog! I am going to enjoy seeing this thing running..... :praise2:


Don
I can't wait either!

And in mid May, am going up to Maine to see the real thing running, taking the model in whatever state it is in at the time to share with the museum folks. Going to be fun!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on April 04, 2017, 11:25:21 PM
Beautiful.

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on April 05, 2017, 12:26:19 AM
Bet you get a free T shirt and your admission back  :lolb: :lolb:. They are gonna need a diaper if you know what I mean. Nice work.

Eric
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 05, 2017, 02:44:25 AM
I would love to see the looks on their faces!! We need lots of pics of that trip and the model alongside the real thing.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on April 05, 2017, 03:15:16 AM
I googled "Stephenson Links" and found a couple of YouTube videos, so I have a grasp of how they work. Anyway, will they be used on the Lombard to give just forward and reverse or can they also be used to move one track forward while the other is reversed?

Jim

PS: Chris......nice work as usual. I too am looking forward to the details of your road trip later this spring.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: kvom on April 05, 2017, 11:54:34 AM
I asked the same question early in the build.  The answer is that the two linkages are connected by the same bar that holds the lifting links.  So both engines are locked in forward/reverse at the same time.  Only the front skids have effect on steering.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 05, 2017, 01:26:20 PM
I asked the same question early in the build.  The answer is that the two linkages are connected by the same bar that holds the lifting links.  So both engines are locked in forward/reverse at the same time.  Only the front skids have effect on steering.

Correct. There is just one crankshaft, the eccentrics for the Stephenson are on that shaft. The differential that the crankshaft drives allows for one track to move slower/faster than the other in turns, just like a car does. From what I've read, Lombard did experiment with separate cranks and allowing the pistons to go out of sync for turning, but the vibration was so bad he abandoned that path. The steering in the winter was helped by the iced ruts that they made for the ahuler and the log sleds to follow, they even had a machine called a 'rutter' (descriptive at least) that would plow and form the ruts. They would have crews water the ruts overnight so they could use them during the day.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 05, 2017, 01:27:10 PM
I would love to see the looks on their faces!! We need lots of pics of that trip and the model alongside the real thing.

Bill
The folks at the museum have seen some pictures during the build, so they know its coming, still should be a great experience. My camera will get a real workout on that trip, lots of pics and videos for sure.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 05, 2017, 08:38:50 PM
4 or 5 days ago we got on the topic of lathe live centers, was asked about the one I was using on my Sherline which was from LMS. It is slightly different than the one they are selling now, but the dimensions of the end are the same, just a different case around the bearing.

Both better than the stock Sherline one, which has too short a nose to get a cutter in to the end of the stock easily if using anything larger than a 1/4" HSS one, anything like most of the insert tools.

About that time, Sherline came out with their newer model, meant for pool cue work. It has a much longer nose, fairly small diameter. I just got one, and here are some test pictures comparing it to the stock Sherline one.

First, the stock one, trying to get at the end of a bar:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/df0ywb0lj/IMG_9830.jpg)
It only lets me in to a diameter just under an inch, and even then I can't get all the way to the back of the stock, the cutter is in about 1/16". Plus, to even reach the stock, I had to put an extender on the tailstock to get it to reach across the cross slide.

Here is an attempt with the new one, much easier to get in to the end. Also, it is long enough no extender is needed. Seems plenty solid. The entire outside of it spins, the bearing part is under the part that shows. Looks good.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/82c4i6cp3/IMG_9829.jpg)
Here is a picture next to the LMS one, which is very nice, very solid, and long enough not to need the extender either. It does have a slightly larger diameter tip, so the new Sherline one will get in to a smaller diameter. Both are much better than the orignal Sherline one.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/c19c101c7/IMG_9832.jpg)
That's my product review for the day (roll end credits please!).

And no, I have NO connection to any of those companies or stores!

I now return you to my regularly scheduled Lombard build. Well, as soon as I do some more on it and do another post, anyway!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 05, 2017, 10:58:55 PM
Finishing up the Stephenson links - got the bolts shortened on the eccentrics, and made up a set of shoulder bolts for the link tabs. Started with some small stainless hex stock, turned the shanks to match the holes in the tabs, and threaded the ends 2-56:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/vn2eaxt53/IMG_9833.jpg)
All 4 bolts and nuts made up:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6ibdxiton/IMG_9834.jpg)
and installed:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/pool0pa6f/IMG_9835.jpg)
A little filing on one of the followers to remove a high spot, and all are moving clean now. Next up will be the bases for the control linkages and the linkages for the valve rods arms.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on April 06, 2017, 12:08:32 AM
Okay---I'm impressed!! Quick question---I downloaded a 3D cad file of a twin cylinder steam engine with Stephenson links just to study up on them a little. How much offset is there supposed to be between the two cams on a common link?---and--Does the engine have to be throttled down to a low speed before switching into reverse (It seems obvious that it would have to be because of the inertia of flywheels, etcetera, but I remember old steam train movies when a crash between two trains was imminent. the engineer thru the engines into reverse while the train was still moving forward, and a great shower of sparks came off the wheels when they started to rotate in reverse while the momentum of the train was still carrying the train forward.) Or---does the Stephenson link shut off the steam as it flips over the "cam point" and then reopen the steam path. I'm pretty vague on the operation.--Brian
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 06, 2017, 02:41:58 AM
Okay---I'm impressed!! Quick question---I downloaded a 3D cad file of a twin cylinder steam engine with Stephenson links just to study up on them a little. How much offset is there supposed to be between the two cams on a common link?---and--Does the engine have to be throttled down to a low speed before switching into reverse (It seems obvious that it would have to be because of the inertia of flywheels, etcetera, but I remember old steam train movies when a crash between two trains was imminent. the engineer thru the engines into reverse while the train was still moving forward, and a great shower of sparks came off the wheels when they started to rotate in reverse while the momentum of the train was still carrying the train forward.) Or---does the Stephenson link shut off the steam as it flips over the "cam point" and then reopen the steam path. I'm pretty vague on the operation.--Brian
Hi Brian,


Normally you would think that the fwd and rvs cams would be 180 degrees apart, but usually they are each 10 to 18 degrees from the line between them, to allow for lap and lead in the valves. The linkage can also be placed at less than full travel, changing the lead and cutoff for steady running vs startup.


I think it would be typical to slow before reversing direction, but it is not required. Not just trains, but also on boats. I remember Dave telling the story of a near collision and slamming the Sabino to full reverse. On a really biv ship, I could see that putting huge forces on the shaft and prop.


The linkage just controls which cam is doing the work, and how much. In the middle of the link is a dead spot where the valve doesn't move, at either end it is full motion from one cam or the other.


Its a neat motion to watch. You should build an engine with one!


Oh, and on locomotives  it very often is actually a different linkage, using a second small crank off the drive shaft, and with a different linkage to the valves, lots of variations on the theme. It would be neat to make a board with a variety of the linkages to accomplish the valve movement.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on April 06, 2017, 03:50:47 AM
Thanks for the great report on the live centers Chris. The new Sherline one would of worked great on several occasions where I had issues with their previous one. It's on my "buy" list.

Now on the Stephenson links. I can get how you could reverse direction on a locomotive (I've seen the video) and a boat where there's not a lot of friction to keep it moving in one direction. However on something like the Lombard, with good traction, it seems like even though the engine has been told to run in the opposite direction, momentum would keep the engine moving in the original direction and bad things might happen?

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 06, 2017, 04:02:32 AM
Thanks for the great report on the live centers Chris. The new Sherline one would of worked great on several occasions where I had issues with their previous one. It's on my "buy" list.

Now on the Stephenson links. I can get how you could reverse direction on a locomotive (I've seen the video) and a boat where there's not a lot of friction to keep it moving in one direction. However on something like the Lombard, with good traction, it seems like even though the engine has been told to run in the opposite direction, momentum would keep the engine moving in the original direction and bad things might happen?

Jim
I agree, it seems like it would be a huge amount of stress and force on the mechanism, if there was good traction you would likely break something, drive chain, gear teeth, etc. On an icy surface, maybe not, but there were many tons of weight on the tracks. I would not want to try it!  The engine on the lombard was geared down to the tracks, so the force at the tracks is higher even though the speed is lower. I think it was in one of the audio interviews with the driver I posted that he talked about the time the drive chain broke, and they lost all control and went backwards down the hill.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: kvom on April 06, 2017, 12:56:29 PM
Moving the die block inside of the links changes the cutoff until at the center point no steam is entering the cylinders.  A vehicle at speed would need to slow using its brakes.  Using the reverser as a brake at speed would be bad practice.  The main effect would be much increased pressure within the cylinder and steam chest as the the piston acts against the incoming steam flow. 

The reason that the linkage would be at less than full steam admission when running is to take advantage of steam's characteristics.  At full admission the force on the piston is just from full boiler pressure.  With less admission, the force is augmented by steam expansion.  This means less steam and energy consumption.  The control quadrant will have notches to allow the setting to be locked in place.  Running with less than full admission is called "notching up" as a result.

On air there's no expansion, so notching up just reduces the pressure.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: MJM460 on April 06, 2017, 01:48:06 PM
A small correction, air does expand when the valve linkage is notched back.

If you put you finger over the outlet of a bike pump, and push in the handle to create some pressure, you will note two things.

The pump will get warm due to the heat of compression.  Then if you let go the handle it will be pushed out by the expansion of air.  Air is compressible and also expands with properties similar to steam but not exactly the same.  The factors causing the difference are the different adiabatic exponents and different molecular weights, which along with the probable difference in initial pressure and temperatures result in a different amount of work from the same size cylinder, but not hugely different.

When you expand air, it gets cooler, just like steam, but as it generally starts out cooler than steam, you can get quite low exhaust temperatures.  A small industrial turbine can be run on air if steam is not available, with enough power to drive its normal load.  The exhaust pipe frosts up after quite a short time.

MJM460
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 06, 2017, 02:23:35 PM
And on the Lombard, there were no brakes on the vehicle or the log sleds. Braking the hauler with a train of sleds behind it would have caused a big pile of jackknifed sleds with the Hauler at the bottom. Not a jov for the timid!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: kvom on April 06, 2017, 02:39:37 PM
Seems the only reason for reverse on the hauler was maneuvering to hook up the sledges or in parking.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 06, 2017, 08:56:22 PM
Seems the only reason for reverse on the hauler was maneuvering to hook up the sledges or in parking.
Probably right!

Or to back out from between those trees you slid between....   :hellno:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 06, 2017, 09:15:33 PM
With the eccentric followers and links done, moving on to the brackets that hold the control linkages, which move the Stephenson linkage between forward and reverse. I started with some 3/8" thick x 1-1/4" wide steel bar, long enough for both brackets plus some for holding them. First step was to angle both ends by 12 degrees, since they lean back a little to put the rod above the base edge.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bbo8zro3r/IMG_9836.jpg)
Then, with the block held on its side at a 2 degree angle, milled in the recess on the front side, leaving a block around where the pivot will be.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/n26ruw69z/IMG_9837.jpg)
Then repeated those cuts on the back side, leaving a .100" web in the center.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/t4eeldupz/IMG_9839.jpg)
To square up the angle at the bottom edge so the bolts can lay flat, took a cut along the bottom edge with the block laying flat.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4p66kbvt3/IMG_9841.jpg)
Then drilled the pivot holes,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/40xc1dx3b/IMG_9842.jpg)
and the mounting holes:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/asnr48m2v/IMG_9843.jpg)
Next, again used the rotary table jig from the Stephenson links to hold the block to round over the ends around the pivot holes, did same cut from both sides on each hole.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tm9k18kav/IMG_9845.jpg)
Here are the parts so far:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/44r5hn2kn/IMG_9847.jpg)
Then I cut the parts off the bar, and used the belt sander to round over the remaining center web around the pivots, and also blended it in on the upper back edge. Then came back to the mill and took the cut edge down to dimension, using the center web to hold the parts in the vise:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wiwl1iq4n/IMG_9848.jpg)
And here they are sitting on the engine beds:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4k2fanohz/IMG_9850.jpg)
Not a bad days work!

Next time I think I will start on the brackets that hold the pivot arms for the valve links. Those are more complex, have not decided yet how much will be soldered up and how much taken out of solid block. They are the light green brackets in this image:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/b2a87g2iv/Engine_Bed_v58.jpg)
Rather than a solid base, they have an open web of wide thin bars with a bearing block on top. Should be an interesting one to fabricate...


Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 06, 2017, 11:10:52 PM
 :popcorn:

As before...nuttin to say.  ;D

But I'm watching and  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 07, 2017, 01:14:59 AM
Thanks for the review on the new live center Chris. It looks good and definitely better than the original Sherline, but $88 is still pricey. Maybe they will make it the monthly featured item soon :)

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 07, 2017, 01:30:26 AM
Thanks for the review on the new live center Chris. It looks good and definitely better than the original Sherline, but $88 is still pricey. Maybe they will make it the monthly featured item soon :)

Bill
The one from LMS is a better value, and also quite good, just slightly larger tip than the new one.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 07, 2017, 01:31:02 AM
:popcorn:

As before...nuttin to say.  ;D

But I'm watching and  :popcorn:
Glad to have you along for the ride!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 09, 2017, 05:32:11 PM
Getting caught up on the posting, never got around to it the last couple days....

The forward valve rocker brackets are a bit different than the rear control link brackets, in that they are an open frame of wide thin bars. I thought about milling out of solid, but that would leave too many inside corners to file back, and take longer than silver soldering up the bars would take, even with making a jig to hold them.

So, started out by putting the small vise on the tilt table, at 20.5 degrees from horizontal. Then clamped in the clamping jig from making the track plates, and milled the ends of the bars at that angle on each end.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/oarhcg05j/IMG_9853.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mwzuh50w7/IMG_9854.jpg)
Also made up the longer base bars,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/82b92yrbb/IMG_9855.jpg)
and milled an angled notch in them where the inside edge of the uprights go,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/t0hf11r5z/IMG_9856.jpg)
and took away the remainder of the notch on the horizontal vise
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mbavl15tz/IMG_9857.jpg)
Next step was to make up the thicker blocks that will sit on top, and form the bearing blocks for the pivots:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/sdn3p9jnr/IMG_9859.jpg)
After a little fiddling around, made up a small brass jig to bolt the parts to. It did require drilling some holes in the bars, they will be filled in at the end.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/sex1iolhj/IMG_9860.jpg)
At this point, things were ready to take out and silver solder the joints. The first one went together fine, but I had forgotten about the solder flowing back into the screw heads on the side bars, and yup, it happened. Luckily I was able to mill back the sides of the bolt heads and get them out with pliers.
So, on the second one, picked up the Nicrobraze pen (that I had just bought two weeks ago at one of you guy's recommendation, and was just sitting there on the bench next to me saying "hey, stupid, use me!") and made a ring around the bolt heads:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tv8k0toef/IMG_9861.jpg)
Worked like a charm on the second bracket, no solder made it to the screws. It goes on and dries like Witeout does, but it comes off much easier, disolving in the pickle solution. I am using the Tenacity 5 flux someone here put me on to, like how it behaves. The maker says to use just a vinegar with salt solution to disolve the flux, that worked well on both the hardened flux and the Nicrobraze.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/x3d1dvao7/IMG_9865.jpg)
Both brackets are soldered up now, still need to mill a recess in the bottom edge of the lower horizontal bar, fill the holes, and then will drill for the pivot bearings....
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: GailinNM on April 09, 2017, 07:35:34 PM
Looking great Chris.  I don't post to your thread too ofter but I  follow along every post you make.

It's not fair though.  You make half a dozen parts and a jig of fixture and I only get to hold up one finished part and smile.  But we both have fun and that's all that counts.

Gail in NM
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on April 09, 2017, 07:37:24 PM
Nicely executed Chris.  There is some great stuff in that post.

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: paul gough on April 09, 2017, 08:27:10 PM
Who built this one and where?  <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5_iyPryaDs Regards Paul Gough.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 09, 2017, 08:35:49 PM
That looks like the one the chap in Germany built. I have his website on the pc, can look it up later if you want it, he has a build log and videos of it, in German but google translate will convert it. Very well done, the tracks and chains were simplified a bit but close to the original.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: paul gough on April 09, 2017, 08:51:27 PM
Thanks Chris, I thought he might have been Dutch, If you could supply the website I would appreciate it. Regards Paul.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: paul gough on April 09, 2017, 09:01:03 PM
Chris, I forgot to mention in the previous post, I really applaud your skills at 'manually' sculpting accurate facsimiles of all manner of parts on your basic and diminutive machines. It is inspirational and also instructive that simple equipment can and most certainly does, in your case, produce very sophisticated and beautiful models. Paul.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 09, 2017, 09:32:24 PM
Found the link to the build log:  http://www.depuffendeschoorsteen.com/lombard-steam-log-hauler-/


And thanks Paul, I think that seeing a block and figuring how to whittle a shape out of it is a part of the sculptor in me, the old joke about seeing the horse in the block of wood and just taking away everything else is true!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 09, 2017, 09:54:25 PM
Nice fabrication job on the brackets Chris. Thanks for the like to the German website too. There is s wealth of historic information there.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: paul gough on April 09, 2017, 10:02:40 PM
Chris, Have you tried blacksmithing, maybe you could try forging some parts. Some people think engineering is for philistines, I happen to think it is one of the most creative and artistic endeavours, though I am inclined to think 19th century examples offer the most elegant expressions of mechanical motion. Paul.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 09, 2017, 10:12:53 PM
Some people think engineering is for philistines, I happen to think it is one of the most creative and artistic endeavours,

 :ThumbsUp:

Not that one has to be an engineer...but it's always been about solving puzzles (i.e. coming up with solutions) for me.
That's also been part of my problem...once I see and understand the solution...I'm kind of done and ready for the next.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 09, 2017, 10:17:05 PM
Chris, Have you tried blacksmithing, maybe you could try forging some parts. Some people think engineering is for philistines, I happen to think it is one of the most creative and artistic endeavours, though I am inclined to think 19th century examples offer the most elegant expressions of mechanical motion. Paul.
Never done any blacksmithing larger than little parts for ship models, though there is a local welding supply company that has a classroom building where they teach welding, blacksmithing, glasswork, etc. I took the copper class there, learning to raise bowl shapes from sheet stock. Want to take the blacksmithing class sometime too.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 09, 2017, 10:19:26 PM
Some people think engineering is for philistines, I happen to think it is one of the most creative and artistic endeavours,

 :ThumbsUp:

Not that one has to be an engineer...but it's always been about solving puzzles (i.e. coming up with solutions) for me.
That's also been part of my problem...once I see and understand the solution...I'm kind of done and ready for the next.
Though unless you actually build the part, machine, whatever, you never know the other puzzles hidden inside the first one. There are always more things to learn from making and running something.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 09, 2017, 10:21:35 PM
Nice fabrication job on the brackets Chris. Thanks for the like to the German website too. There is s wealth of historic information there.

Bill
Thanks Bill.


He has quite a collection of stuff there, great running model too!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 09, 2017, 10:29:45 PM
Is yours the same scale Chris? Somehow yours looks bigger to me. I have no doubt that yours will run just as well or better!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 09, 2017, 10:37:03 PM
Some people think engineering is for philistines, I happen to think it is one of the most creative and artistic endeavours,

 :ThumbsUp:

Not that one has to be an engineer...but it's always been about solving puzzles (i.e. coming up with solutions) for me.
That's also been part of my problem...once I see and understand the solution...I'm kind of done and ready for the next.
Though unless you actually build the part, machine, whatever, you never know the other puzzles hidden inside the first one. There are always more things to learn from making and running something.

Oh that's true...but to some extent, at that point you're picking one puzzle over another.

More importantly...and I think there is where people would take me out back...it's the only way to actually prove you're right.

It's sort of the road issue. Do you enjoy the road or the end point? I enjoy the road. I don't mind not finishing. Many people enjoy the endpoint.
Well I do mind not finishing...just not as much as not starting on the next. Think of 'Up' and "squirrel!".

Which is odd now that I think about it. I hate to travel...but love being where I end up.

Don't care. It's whatever is enjoyable and fun.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 09, 2017, 10:38:23 PM
Is yours the same scale Chris? Somehow yours looks bigger to me. I have no doubt that yours will run just as well or better!!

Bill
Not sure what scale his is, though it does look a little smaller than mine. Hard to tell. Guess we need a road trip!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 09, 2017, 10:39:08 PM
Some people think engineering is for philistines, I happen to think it is one of the most creative and artistic endeavours,

 :ThumbsUp:

Not that one has to be an engineer...but it's always been about solving puzzles (i.e. coming up with solutions) for me.
That's also been part of my problem...once I see and understand the solution...I'm kind of done and ready for the next.
Though unless you actually build the part, machine, whatever, you never know the other puzzles hidden inside the first one. There are always more things to learn from making and running something.

Oh that's true...but to some extent, at that point you're picking one puzzle over another.

More importantly...and I think there is where people would take me out back...it's the only way to actually prove you're right.

It's sort of the road issue. Do you enjoy the road or the end point? I enjoy the road. I don't mind not finishing. Many people enjoy the endpoint.
Well I do mind not finishing...just not as much as not starting on the next. Think of 'Up' and "squirrel!".

Which is odd now that I think about it. I hate to travel...but love being where I end up.

Don't care. It's whatever is enjoyable and fun.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: tvoght on April 10, 2017, 01:07:09 AM
Chris,
  I have looked before and could not find a source of the Tenacity 5 flux in the U.S. Where did you get yours?

--Tim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 10, 2017, 01:15:32 AM
Chris,
  I have looked before and could not find a source of the Tenacity 5 flux in the U.S. Where did you get yours?

--Tim
I couldn't find it in the US either, wound up ordering it from the UK, pretty sure it was on ebay  shipping was cheap.  Comes as a powder, mix it with water and a drop of liquid soap. I just mixed up a small amount in a nother plastic container, for what I do it will last years.
I had been using Harris white flux, I like this better, seems to last longer, cleans up easier. Melts clear just before the solder does just like the Harris does. For pickle the manufacturer recommend just vinegar and salt, cheap, works great on steel and brass, and lots safer than stronger acids.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: paul gough on April 10, 2017, 02:33:59 AM
 Now we know the identity of one of your gnomes. A skilled Dutch migrant. What an amazing resource to go through, very much thanks for the website Chris. Regards, Paul.

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: paul gough on April 10, 2017, 03:04:54 AM
Sorry about the wrong nationality on the title of the attachment I could not work out how to change it, however I did change it in the text to the correct one. Paul.

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: paul gough on April 10, 2017, 08:10:31 AM
I enquired of the Dutch builder what scale he used for his Lombard model and he replied it was 1:16, or 3/4" to the foot in the old money, Loek is his name. Paul.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 10, 2017, 12:45:47 PM
I enquired of the Dutch builder what scale he used for his Lombard model and he replied it was 1:16, or 3/4" to the foot in the old money, Loek is his name. Paul.
Good to know - mine is 1:12 scale, so it is a bit larger than Loek's model. Hope mine runs as nicely as his does!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 10, 2017, 03:29:10 PM
Finishing up the valve rocker brackets, milled the center of the bottom plate to form the feet at the ends:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3xe4m9xon/IMG_9875.jpg)
and drilled the mounting holes
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ap4jp4mo7/IMG_9876.jpg)
plus the bearing holes:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/st7k9rkcn/IMG_9877.jpg)
The bearings were turned/drilled/reamed out of some bearing bronze,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/yinsu2qiv/IMG_9878.jpg)
and all test fit together. The brackets have had the holes from silver soldering screws filled with JB Weld, after they cure up I can get the holes to mount the two sets of brackets laid out and drilled into the engine beds...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 11, 2017, 06:47:49 PM
With the brackets done, moving on to the control arms. Cut some 1/4" square bar to length and one end to thickness, drilled the ends, then set up a holding jig on the rotary table to round over the protruding end:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7c0wg5ih3/IMG_9881.jpg)
then took down the arm itself to same radius
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6ns1x7jrb/IMG_9882.jpg)
and likewise at the other end
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3uyud6jev/IMG_9883.jpg)
to form the arm:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/juhhwqfgn/IMG_9884.jpg)
Made up a pair of those, and a simalar pair without the protruding and, and loctited them to the shaft:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/creoe8gcn/IMG_9885.jpg)
Still need to make a set for the control linkages - same basic shapes but different lengths....
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: fumopuc on April 11, 2017, 07:15:04 PM
Hi Chris, always a pleasure to follow your progress.
After seeing your and Vince Fusion360 activities, I have downloaded the programm 2 weeks ago.
So Pandoras box is open and I have learned a new definition of CAD.
It is pure pleasure to learn and get things done.
Thanks for pushing me that direction with the screenshots of your modelling.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 11, 2017, 07:41:44 PM
Hi Chris, always a pleasure to follow your progress.
After seeing your and Vince Fusion360 activities, I have downloaded the programm 2 weeks ago.
So Pandoras box is open and I have learned a new definition of CAD.
It is pure pleasure to learn and get things done.
Thanks for pushing me that direction with the screenshots of your modelling.
Glad it is working out for you! I learned a lot from the tutorial videos on thier website, quick way to learn the basics of their modeling and workflow. Some friends of mine here are using it to model and 3d print parts for their RC models too.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: fumopuc on April 11, 2017, 07:59:11 PM
.... I hope to be on the right way.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 11, 2017, 10:01:13 PM
That looks like a great start! Fusion also does a nice job of creating 2d plans from the 3d model.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: vcutajar on April 11, 2017, 10:55:57 PM
That looks great Achim.

Vince
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 12, 2017, 08:22:15 PM
I continued on with making the linkage arms for the Stephenson controls, using the jig/techniques shown last time.

Here are a couple views of the brackets and links propped up in place where they will go:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4wdbqwlhj/IMG_9888.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/bbccnks7b/IMG_9890.jpg)
A whole lot of stuff getting packed into that area, and not even up to the cylinders/crossheads/etc yet - now I get why it was so hard to follow the pictures from the restoration of the engine, there are 6 layers of parts wherever you look!

I need to get the mounting holes laid out and drilled/tapped to secure these parts, and loctite the upper control arms in place on the long rod across the top. After that, I think I will start in on the cylinder itself. Oh yeah, an engine! In the engine builder forum! Finally getting to that, only been, um, 6 or 7 months on this build so far!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: vcutajar on April 12, 2017, 09:16:23 PM
Lots of progress in those 6 or 7 months.  Keep it up.

Vince
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 12, 2017, 10:17:22 PM
re your comment about your elves being Piranha around your cookies...

Your posts gather the members. Chomp chomp chomp.

Tasty!!!

What's that flavor of oil?  ;D
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 12, 2017, 11:08:20 PM
re your comment about your elves being Piranha around your cookies...

Your posts gather the members. Chomp chomp chomp.

Tasty!!!

What's that flavor of oil?  ;D
3-in-1 oil...


 :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 13, 2017, 05:23:33 PM
The control brackets are all mounted, links in place - time to start on the cylinders!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wplcp4m9z/IMG_9895.jpg)
Tight spaces to get the bolts in to the engine beds, lots of partial turns with small open end wrench...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kc8ii7wlj/IMG_9897.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on April 13, 2017, 06:57:45 PM
Dog that is bad ass looking Machine. Very nice work Chris and still with you....... :praise2:


Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: kvom on April 13, 2017, 10:57:29 PM
Can I assume that the eccentric strap die block is just the round end of a pin that goes through the bottom of the rocker?
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 13, 2017, 11:50:28 PM
What an incredible body if work Chris, in this model alone. Well done!!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 14, 2017, 12:56:38 AM
Can I assume that the eccentric strap die block is just the round end of a pin that goes through the bottom of the rocker?
Correct - the pin is fixed to the lower end of the arm, and rides in the arched slot in the link plate. The upper end of the rocker will have a connection to a T shaped block on the end of the valve rod.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 14, 2017, 12:57:11 AM
What an incredible body if work Chris, in this model alone. Well done!!!

Bill

Thanks Bill!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 14, 2017, 12:57:49 AM
Dog that is bad ass looking Machine. Very nice work Chris and still with you....... :praise2:


Don
Glad to have you along for the ride!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on April 14, 2017, 03:03:48 AM
Holy cow Chris..............that's a rather "busy" area! Looks great!  :praise2:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on April 14, 2017, 03:21:37 AM
Looking good Chris, real good.

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 14, 2017, 03:46:51 AM
Holy cow Chris..............that's a rather "busy" area! Looks great!  :praise2:

Jim
And haven't even gotten to the cylinder, piston, crossheads, valves, intake pipes, exhaust, let alone the boiler....!


The elves are gonna need a lot more cookies!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 14, 2017, 03:47:09 AM
Looking good Chris, real good.

-Bob
Thanks Bob!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Dreeves on April 14, 2017, 01:33:55 PM
I was watching Impossible engineering on the science channel last night and they were showing the Lombard Hauler. I saw the side tracks before they said what it was and knew what it was.

great job on the parts made. I look forward to seeing the progress everyday.

Dave

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 14, 2017, 02:04:57 PM
I was watching Impossible engineering on the science channel last night and they were showing the Lombard Hauler. I saw the side tracks before they said what it was and knew what it was.

great job on the parts made. I look forward to seeing the progress everyday.

Dave

Thanks Dave,
I caught that one too, looked like the Maine forestry museum's hauler. It's a very distinctive shape. On the show they said it was used to haul logs in the summer too, which I was not aware of, have to look into it and see if that was true or not. With the extra friction on mud and dirt, doubt they could pull anywhere near as big a load.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on April 14, 2017, 02:08:37 PM
I was watching Impossible engineering on the science channel last night and they were showing the Lombard Hauler. I saw the side tracks before they said what it was and knew what it was.

great job on the parts made. I look forward to seeing the progress everyday.

Dave

Thanks Dave,
I caught that one too, looked like the Maine forestry museum's hauler. It's a very distinctive shape. On the show they said it was used to haul logs in the summer too, which I was not aware of, have to look into it and see if that was true or not. With the extra friction on mud and dirt, doubt they could pull anywhere near as big a load.

Chris...........in your research have you gotten a feel for what kind of distance they were towing these sleds of logs?

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 14, 2017, 02:23:59 PM
I was watching Impossible engineering on the science channel last night and they were showing the Lombard Hauler. I saw the side tracks before they said what it was and knew what it was.

great job on the parts made. I look forward to seeing the progress everyday.

Dave

Thanks Dave,
I caught that one too, looked like the Maine forestry museum's hauler. It's a very distinctive shape. On the show they said it was used to haul logs in the summer too, which I was not aware of, have to look into it and see if that was true or not. With the extra friction on mud and dirt, doubt they could pull anywhere near as big a load.

Chris...........in your research have you gotten a feel for what kind of distance they were towing these sleds of logs?

Jim

The accounts I've read show that hauling logs 4 or 5 miles from woods to the mill or river was very common, and 10 to 20 mile trips were done in some areas, with 60 to 80 miles per day total travel. They would haul in empty sleds to be filled while taking already loaded ones back out. I have not found accounts of them being used in the summer, at least in the Maine regions in the early 1900's. In later years  with more powerful diesel and gasoline units it was done, especially with better developed roads.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 14, 2017, 02:33:00 PM
On to the cylinders at long last! The originals were cast with the steam chest base and mounting flanges in place, all as one piece. In my case, I will get at that shape using a turned core, with the chest base and flanges being silver soldered on before boring out the center of the cylinder.

I got started with a 2-1/4" long section of some 1-1/4" 303 stainless bar, and turned one end down to 3/4". This will do two things: let me hold the part in a collet block for milling (my collets only go up to 1-1/8" diameter) the flats, and also allow the end of the bar to go into the center hole in the 4-jaw chuck so that the full length of the jaws can grip the part rather than having to reverse the jaws and just used the stepped portion.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/zdp1o30ef/IMG_9899.jpg)
Then, the part was reversed, and the outside turned to size and the center section turned in to form the flanges at the ends.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/llamsg9mv/IMG_9900.jpg)
Next step is to turn the other cylinder down to the same stage, then I will take them over to the mill to put in the steam chest base flat and also the notch in the bottom for the mounting flanges that will hold it to the engine bed rail. Once those parts are made and silver soldered on, it will come back to the lathe for boring, and then the end held in the chuck will be parted off. The outer end being turned now will be the base of the cylinder, where the piston rod goes in, and the inner end towards the chuck will be the top of the cylinder that gets the simple cap. That way I know that the base and bore are perpendicular to each other, which is the more critical alignment than the top cap.

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on April 14, 2017, 03:20:40 PM
One thing that keeps crossing my mind is that these must have been incredibly maintenance intense machines.  I know steam locomotives were and they ran on controlled rails.   That these were running on trails, and given the complexity of the mechanics, they must of had some interesting breakdowns.

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 14, 2017, 03:53:14 PM
One thing that keeps crossing my mind is that these must have been incredibly maintenance intense machines.  I know steam locomotives were and they ran on controlled rails.   That these were running on trails, and given the complexity of the mechanics, they must of had some interesting breakdowns.

-Bob
I bet you are right, all the maintenance of a train, plus the track plate joints, rollers, chains and gears to grease and clean, all mixed with ice, snow, dirt, mud, wood chips...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: kvom on April 14, 2017, 04:58:30 PM
At the RR museum in Savannah, I heard a good description of maintaining steam locos vs. diesel.  For a steamer a fault could be diagnosed in 5 minutes, and the repair takes 2 weeks.  For diesel it's the opposite.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 15, 2017, 01:47:17 PM
Catching up from yesterdays work now that the forum is back up (hooray!).

Last time the cylinder outsides were turned to shape, with a 3/4" post left at the outer end to allow for holding it. That post was used to hold the parts in a 5C collet in a square block, held in the mill vise to mill the flat for the steam chest base:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kodeb2cw7/IMG_9901.jpg)
Then, without removing the part, the block was turned 180 so the flat was facing down, and a notch milled in to take the mounting flange:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6vyzffm4n/IMG_9902.jpg)
The same steps were repeated on the second cylinder, except the mounting flange notch was put on the front side rather than the back side, since it has to face the other way for the second cylinder.
With the cylinder prepared, some bar stock was cut down and shaped to size for the steam chest base (just a simple rectangular block) and also for the mounting flanges, which are essentially heavy angle iron parts. To hold it securely for shaping I made the two flanges in opposite sides of one larger block:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/nl0fbcipz/IMG_9907.jpg)
and then cut them apart to mill the final face:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9fum9j9on/IMG_9908.jpg)
Here are the parts so far test fit together:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/j1o6pu0uf/IMG_9909.jpg)
The next step will be to run in some small screws to hold the parts for silver soldering the assembly together. I could use the clamp to hold them, but dont really want to subject a good clamp to that heat. I will run some screws in, in places that wont show or interfere with later holes or fasteners.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on April 15, 2017, 04:48:09 PM
I'm still following along and enjoying your always fascinating build, Chris!  :popcorn:
Can't wait to see how the cylinders come together. 
Kim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 15, 2017, 09:01:08 PM
And the cylinders are coming together - at least with some bolts. To hold the parts for silver soldering, I drilled/tapped for some shallow bolts for the base plates and the mounting flanges. The holes were kept shallow (.150") and at the sides so that they would not be bored into when doing the piston bore.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9xyygve13/IMG_9910.jpg)
Here are the parts all bolted together, ready for a degrease wash and then silver soldering, probably tomorrow. Since the holes were shallow, and the bolts would have to be a very specific length to draw up the parts, I just ran in some longer bolts with nuts to tighten down on the parts - that way I could use all of the threads in the holes (only a few). To give room for the solder to wick in, I will be giving the bottom of the plates a few hits with a center punch to make some shallow raised dimples. If the milled surfaces were clamped together with no gap, there is a good chance that the solder would not wick all the way in. For the steam chest base plates, the important joint is really at the ends, since that is where the steam passages will cross the joints. For the exhaust, that will go out the side of the plates. Regardless, I want the full surface to have solder on it if possible.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/z59uh4h53/IMG_9913.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 15, 2017, 10:57:51 PM
 :popcorn:

I'll have plenty to say later.

Plenty.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 15, 2017, 11:28:26 PM
:popcorn:

I'll have plenty to say later.

Plenty.
Anything other than "plenty"?


 :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 16, 2017, 12:16:46 AM
Looks like a productive day in the shop Chris. Cylinders are coming together nicely.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 16, 2017, 12:26:20 AM
:popcorn:

I'll have plenty to say later.

Plenty.
Anything other than "plenty"?


 :Lol:

Yes. Nuttin.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 16, 2017, 12:31:55 AM
Looks like a productive day in the shop Chris. Cylinders are coming together nicely.

Bill
This is the first time I have silver soldered up a cylinder assembly like this, been wanting to try it. Assuming that it works out, and it should, then "castings? Who needs castings!".  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on April 16, 2017, 03:48:49 AM
Looks like a productive day in the shop Chris. Cylinders are coming together nicely.

Bill
This is the first time I have silver soldered up a cylinder assembly like this, been wanting to try it. Assuming that it works out, and it should, then "castings? Who needs castings!".  :Lol:

I can just see the ad now: "Crueby's Castings.........we make castings........one machined piece at a time"!  :lolb:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 16, 2017, 04:00:21 AM
Looks like a productive day in the shop Chris. Cylinders are coming together nicely.

Bill
This is the first time I have silver soldered up a cylinder assembly like this, been wanting to try it. Assuming that it works out, and it should, then "castings? Who needs castings!".  :Lol:

I can just see the ad now: "Crueby's Castings.........we make castings........one machined piece at a time"!  :lolb:

Jim
Chris's Cookie Casting Company, cast from only the best dark chocolate swarf!
 :stir:


Well, the slogan needs work....   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 16, 2017, 06:52:56 PM
This morning I got the cylinder assemblies silver soldered together. It seems to have taken well, pretty sure the solder wicked all the way through. After some time in the pickle and some wire brushing, the screws that held the pieces together for soldering were cut off, and a light trueing cut was taken with the mill:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4ch4qk2pz/IMG_9915.jpg)
Here are the parts so far:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/vlsi523t3/IMG_9914.jpg)
So, on to boring the cylinders for the pistons. As usual, started with a drill after centering the piece up in the lathe,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/i7ff90x53/IMG_9916.jpg)
and then used a boring bar to take it out to size.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/o9n1zill3/IMG_9917.jpg)
and then a light trueing pass on the end to ensure that the bore and the end are perpendicular to each other:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kejnwy2fb/IMG_9918.jpg)
and the first cylinder held up in place to show where it will go:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9szskxw3r/IMG_9919.jpg)
Next will be to do the same boring steps on the second cylinder, then can start on the mounting holes and such...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 16, 2017, 11:02:48 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:

You weren't expecting me to say something were you?  ;D
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 16, 2017, 11:14:35 PM
Those turned out well Chris, I bet you are happy to have that done too.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 16, 2017, 11:20:08 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:

You weren't expecting me to say something were you?  ;D
You did. You said "I have popcorn stuck to both my thumbs!"


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 16, 2017, 11:22:15 PM
Those turned out well Chris, I bet you are happy to have that done too.

Bill
Definitely. The bores turned out well. The nervous bit is coming up, getting all the steam ports and passages done, lots of fine offsets.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: steam guy willy on April 17, 2017, 12:34:56 AM
thats looking great, and i always sleep on how to figure out how to make bits ,,that why it always take ages to make the parts for my engines !!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 17, 2017, 12:54:28 AM
thats looking great, and i always sleep on how to figure out how to make bits ,,that why it always take ages to make the parts for my engines !!

Thanks Willy! Thats part of why I take naps out on the porch during the day, to speed up the process!
Yeah, um, okay, thats why. Thats my story, and I'm sticking to it! We actually got some 70's and near 80 degrees here this weekend, got the porch rockers tested out (yes, still working fine!).
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 17, 2017, 01:02:11 AM
One more shop session in today, and got the mounting holes drilled in the cylinder flanges,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mmxuea9jb/IMG_9920.jpg)
and then used the edge finder to line up the steam chest base for drilling the holes for the steam chest studs. I don't always use the finder, rely on the nearsighted eyes instead, but for critical items like this where multiple parts need to all line up, I do take the extra minute to use it.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6d7obdyvb/IMG_9921.jpg)
then spot drilled the series of holes (after calculating out the numbers of turns on the handwheels for my 'CNC' (Count Number Cranks) procedure)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/anqxkptc7/IMG_9923.jpg)
and drilled the tap sized holes for the 2-56 studs that will hold the steam chest and cover in place
(https://s5.postimg.cc/yg08w8vd3/IMG_9924.jpg)
Here are the parts after a session of tapping the holes:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/uxo8zuuh3/IMG_9925.jpg)
Next time I'll start on the steam/exhaust ports in the face of the chest bases. After that I think it will be time to part off the excess on the ends, have to think on the sequences a bit first. May require another nap...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on April 17, 2017, 01:12:49 AM
Chris---sometimes naps are the answer. I find it almost impossible to nap through the day, but when I go to bed I solve a lot of mechanical problems in that period of time between when I close my eyes and the old brain shuts down for the night. You're doing great work, I love it.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 17, 2017, 01:42:11 AM
Chris---sometimes naps are the answer. I find it almost impossible to nap through the day, but when I go to bed I solve a lot of mechanical problems in that period of time between when I close my eyes and the old brain shuts down for the night. You're doing great work, I love it.---Brian
Sitting in the sun, comfy rocker, reading a good book, somehow the nap finds me. Sure beats sitting in a conference room, bad chair, boring subjects, trying to look awake!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Admiral_dk on April 17, 2017, 06:21:18 PM
Quote
Sure beats sitting in a conference room, bad chair, boring subjects, trying to look awake!

Been there and done that - including falling asleep  :-[

You keep amassing me and the rest of the crew around here  :praise2: - so what can I say, other than keep up the good work and we will all follow you  :popcorn:  :wine1:

Best wishes

Per
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 17, 2017, 06:26:12 PM
Quote
Sure beats sitting in a conference room, bad chair, boring subjects, trying to look awake!

Been there and done that - including falling asleep  :-[

You keep amassing me and the rest of the crew around here  :praise2: - so what can I say, other than keep up the good work and we will all follow you  :popcorn: :wine1:

Best wishes

Per
Thanks!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 17, 2017, 06:52:23 PM
Got quite a bit done on the cylinders this morning. Started by drilling for the exhaust ports, one .099 hole at either end of the port:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mkrqwoa13/IMG_9926.jpg)
and then a series of .052 holes down the length of each steam inlet port:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rxglasxxj/IMG_9928.jpg)
And yes, this is just a series of holes for what should be a set of long slots, getting to that part in a few steps. First, while it was set up in the mill, figured it was a good time to drill the exhaust passage. This angles from the center slot out towards the end on the inside of the frame, where the exhaust pipe will connect in and take the exhaust up to the smokebox. With the drill in the chuck, used that to line up the angle of the cylinder so that it went between the mounting holes and to the center of the exhaust port slot.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9vxgd03wn/IMG_9929.jpg)
With the vise locked down, switched to a center drill, move the mill table forward to center the hole on the side of the base, and started the hole, going deep enough so that the drill itself would be on a level surface.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/nqvqvgybr/IMG_9930.jpg)
and then drilled down till it met the exhaust port:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rne4okpmv/IMG_9932.jpg)
then, with the cylinder on its side, used a 3/16" end mill to plunge cut a wider hole over the end of the angled one to soft solder in the pipe fitting later on.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fzk2u10hz/IMG_9933.jpg)
The same steps were done on the other cylinder, but on the opposite side, so both exhaust ports will be on the inside of the frames.
Okay, now it was time to connect the holes in each row of the steam ports. For this, I went to my high speed air-powered rotary tool, this one happens to be a Turbo-Carver brand that I got years ago for use in detail carving. It takes diamond tipped and carbide tipped tools like your dentist uses, very handy for small work. It has a small tankless compressor activated with a foot pedal, and turns at around 400,000 rpm. Aside from the sound giving flashbacks to the dentist chair, it works quite well, and the small diamond coated bits and the toothed carbide ones cut metal fairly well, though much slower compared to an end mill. For these slots, it just took a couple minutes to connect the holes down to about .200" deep, and square up the ends. Here is one cylinder done, other ready to go:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8xm57tww7/IMG_9935.jpg)
That little needle-like thing in the forground is the cutter. Here is a closeup. The shanks on the bits are 1/16" diameter, and tapered for a friction fit in the chuck.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kb8oj17ev/IMG_9937.jpg)
With both sets of slots done, the last thing to do on the ports was to polish them down on a coarse then fine diamond coated lapping plate, that I originally got for sharpening carving chisels and plane blades. You can get them at woodworking suppliers, just put a little oil on them to carry off the metal bits, hold the part down flat, and slide them back and forth till smooth. This took off the raised burs from drilling/tapping the holes around the edge, and smoothed off the burs on the slots that you can see in the closeup pictures.
With that done, I sawed off the extra metal at the bases of the cylinders:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/uml1boz47/IMG_9940.jpg)
and centered them up in the 4-jaw on the lathe, using a piece of bar stock to protect the valve surface from being marked by the jaws:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/epm9ez6pz/IMG_9941.jpg)
and turned off the end smooth and to size:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9fhanomh3/IMG_9942.jpg)
Last things to do on the cylinders are to drill/tap the holes for the end caps, and to drill the steam passages from the ends down to the inlet ports. For this, I turned down one of the ends I just cut off the cylinders to make an arbor, a close sliding fit in the bore with a shoulder, and drilled/tapped the end for a bolt. Without removing the part to ensure it stayed centered properly, moved the chuck over to the rotary table on the mill. Here is the arbor:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/69woxh3uv/IMG_9943.jpg)
and with the first cylinder ready to go:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/sad1e3miv/IMG_9944.jpg)
The top cap on the arbor is narrow enough to drill the mounting holes, just enough of a lip on it to hold the part securely.

Good progress for one morning, time to head outside now that it is warming up!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: scc on April 17, 2017, 08:54:43 PM
Brilliant work and well documented :ThumbsUp:       Terry
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 17, 2017, 10:18:14 PM
Thanks Terry!

After some outside time this afternoon, went back into the shop and got the holes drilled for the cylinder caps. Very carefully moved the mill table out the right radius from the center point, checked, rechecked, decided it was positioned right, and went ahead with the drilling. All well! Was nervous about ruining one after all that work so far. The holes are 45 degrees apart, starting at 22.5 degrees from the steam chest plate center so that they miss the steam passage hole, to be drilled later after the caps are done.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/hha4jbumf/IMG_9945.jpg)
Here are the cylinders after drilling both ends of each, and one set is tapped, still need to tap the rest of the holes. Which reminded me, going to have to make up another big batch of 2-56 nuts and studs for all these plus the steam chest bolts.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/eogwzau9z/IMG_9946.jpg)
Next up though, going to make the cylinder end caps, and drill the matching holes. I am leaving the rotary table in place and the mill table locked down at the current settings to ensure that those holes line up properly with the cylinders.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on April 17, 2017, 11:27:31 PM
I have to admit you are relentless, damn Dog do you ever rest? But then again your making good progress. Awesome work Chris.........I..........like........ :Love:


Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 17, 2017, 11:34:17 PM
I have to admit you are relentless, damn Dog do you ever rest? But then again your making good progress. Awesome work Chris.........I..........like........ :Love:


Don
Thanks Don,

Oh yeah, plenty of rest time, was only in the shop a couple of hours today. More time outside than in, shop time will shift to evenings as the weather improves (up north we have this thing called Winter you may have heard about down there!)


 :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 18, 2017, 01:19:31 AM
Wow!

Yeah...I know it's not 'plenty'...but wow.  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on April 18, 2017, 01:24:53 AM
Looks good Chris.  I can't wait for this thing to be finished.

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 18, 2017, 01:28:10 AM
Wow!

Yeah...I know it's not 'plenty'...but wow.  :ThumbsUp:
Thanks Carl! Learning to fabricate some of these parts that were castings on the original has opened up lots of new kinds of parts for me. Finally getting more comfortable with the silver soldering on the smaller parts.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 18, 2017, 01:51:07 AM
Sometimes it's hard to gage size but that picture of the cylinder in the lathe chuck on the rotary table I can relate to!  Smaller than it looks like in some of the other pictures of just the cylinders. Well done though!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 18, 2017, 02:30:13 AM
Sometimes it's hard to gage size but that picture of the cylinder in the lathe chuck on the rotary table I can relate to!  Smaller than it looks like in some of the other pictures of just the cylinders. Well done though!!

Bill
Thanks Bill! The bore is .625" wide x 1.15" long. I am very happy with how they turned out. The macro mode on the camera can make things look pretty big sometimes.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 18, 2017, 10:28:00 PM
Getting ready for making the cylinder end caps. First though, could not resist seeing how it looks on the frame:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/x1zvsty9z/IMG_9949.jpg)
For the end caps, started with a length of 303 bar again, and turned and drilled the end to shape and to add the o-ring seat:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/aekmmoipz/IMG_9951.jpg)
Without removing the part, moved the chuck over to the rotary table on the mill, which is still locked in at the setting for the mounting bolts around the rim of the cylinder. Drilled the holes deep enough for the one part,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tkxtpuz7r/IMG_9952.jpg)
and back over to the lathe to part it off, leaving enough to turn the step into the inside later.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/cyg9gs69z/IMG_9953.jpg)
Then did the same for the second base cap, and then started on the top caps, which are just a simple disc with a domed up center.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/lur1kpww7/IMG_9954.jpg)
As with the base caps, drilled the holes on the mill,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/lw0ze4ypz/IMG_9955.jpg)
and parted them off too. With all four end caps made, it was time to flip them around and turn the step into the inside face so it will locate itself on the cylinder bore. First the base caps, held by the packing gland:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4ws0yvnif/IMG_9956.jpg)
and then the top caps, held by the rim. I used some bar stock to locate the disc flat, locked down the chuck, and slid out the stock before turning.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/72mbtdqyv/IMG_9957.jpg)
Last milling steps on the base caps were to mill down the packing gland to the elongated shape they have, leaving the ears on the side to take the mounting bolts. To do this, I made a quick arbor from scrap bar, and drilled an offset hole for a bolt through the center hole, plus a pair of holes for bolts through two of the rim holes to hold it all flat on the arbor. With the arbor centered in the chuck and the part bolted to it, I milled the arc on the first side
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3x6bgwxqf/IMG_9959.jpg)
and then turned the part around and did the other side
(https://s5.postimg.cc/s270ymi13/IMG_9960.jpg)
Here is the first cap done, second waiting to go next:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7jc4tk43r/IMG_9961.jpg)
That was all the time I had for it today, will drill/tap the mounting holes for the packing gland next, and probably make the gland  itself given that the arbor is all set up for milling the sides of it. Then I should be able to get the engine bed rails drilled for the mounting holes to take the cylinder flanges and see how it all looks so far!

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: mike mott on April 18, 2017, 11:15:18 PM
Nice set up to mill the arcs for the gland bolts.

Mike
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 18, 2017, 11:23:49 PM
Nice set up to mill the arcs for the gland bolts.

Mike
Thanks Mike, I went back and forth on how to do them, then spotted the arbor I used to radius the ends of the valve links, already tapped the right distance out, so used that. Worked easy.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on April 19, 2017, 03:05:49 AM
Nice setup for the arc on the packing gland Chris. I hope I can remember that for when I might need it.  :shrug:

It's interesting to see the cylinders (power part of this whole project) mounted and realize just how small they are compared to everything else.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 19, 2017, 03:54:53 AM
Nice setup for the arc on the packing gland Chris. I hope I can remember that for when I might need it.  :shrug:

It's interesting to see the cylinders (power part of this whole project) mounted and realize just how small they are compared to everything else.

Jim
That was the first time I tried the offset that way, usually I centered the part on the holder, and offset everything in the 4 jaw, but reversing it for the opposite side was a chance to misalign it. This way it self aligned both ways the same, and I can use same setup for the gland parts.


On the real engine the cylinders are a 9" bore by 10" stroke, if memory serves. Not that huge for that many tons of machine, but the gearing and sprockets give a 5 or 6 to 1 increase in power at the tradeoff of lower speed. More like a Shay compared to a Mallard locomotive. Cool stuff.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: paul gough on April 19, 2017, 08:07:06 AM
Now we are starting to see what might be called 'the guts' of the machine coming together an even greater appreciation of your 'make it' approach to modelling is evident. It is testimony that models of quite complex machinery can be manufactured without recourse to castings, 3D printing, CNCing etc. etc. Nor in fact, to overly sophisticated machine tools, not even power feed on your lathe! The tradition of the artisan and craftsman live on through your hands and mind. A great inspiration to all who see this work. Bravo! Bravo! (I do pray this will be a real steamer.) Regards Paul Gough.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 19, 2017, 01:13:06 PM
Now we are starting to see what might be called 'the guts' of the machine coming together an even greater appreciation of your 'make it' approach to modelling is evident. It is testimony that models of quite complex machinery can be manufactured without recourse to castings, 3D printing, CNCing etc. etc. Nor in fact, to overly sophisticated machine tools, not even power feed on your lathe! The tradition of the artisan and craftsman live on through your hands and mind. A great inspiration to all who see this work. Bravo! Bravo! (I do pray this will be a real steamer.) Regards Paul Gough.

Thanks much Paul!

It will be a steamer - planning on a single-firetube copper boiler with a butane fired burner, going to use the gas tank/burner/regulator components like I've used in some Gauge-1 locos. The firebox is just a dummy since it won't be coal fired - may use that space to place a larger whistle in. Will also have ability to air-power it for indoor running, though will have to figure out some sort of stand or treadmill to hold the tracks up for stationary running and testing. With the tracks able to pivot on the center axle, just jacking up the frame is not enough.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: paul gough on April 19, 2017, 01:57:22 PM
For the indoor display, perhaps it would be possible to achieve support and motion by an arrangement where the tracks sit on belts, a rolling road, so to speak. Regards Paul Gough.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: scc on April 19, 2017, 05:22:12 PM
Now we are starting to see what might be called 'the guts' of the machine coming together an even greater appreciation of your 'make it' approach to modelling is evident. It is testimony that models of quite complex machinery can be manufactured without recourse to castings, 3D printing, CNCing etc. etc. Nor in fact, to overly sophisticated machine tools, not even power feed on your lathe! The tradition of the artisan and craftsman live on through your hands and mind. A great inspiration to all who see this work. Bravo! Bravo! (I do pray this will be a real steamer.) Regards Paul Gough.

A definite AMEN to that.................Terry
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on April 19, 2017, 07:03:36 PM
Now we are starting to see what might be called 'the guts' of the machine coming together an even greater appreciation of your 'make it' approach to modelling is evident. It is testimony that models of quite complex machinery can be manufactured without recourse to castings, 3D printing, CNCing etc. etc. Nor in fact, to overly sophisticated machine tools, not even power feed on your lathe! The tradition of the artisan and craftsman live on through your hands and mind. A great inspiration to all who see this work. Bravo! Bravo! (I do pray this will be a real steamer.) Regards Paul Gough.

A definite AMEN to that.................Terry

Double Amen.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 19, 2017, 07:53:04 PM
Thanks very much guys! Learned a lot of techniques from everyone here over the years. Not bad for a software engineer!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 19, 2017, 09:07:19 PM
Got the piston rod packing glands made, started by turning the shape down on a bar and drilling for the shaft hole, I like to go a little oversize on these, let them float a bit and the o-ring does the work of sealing.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/q347cfruv/IMG_9962.jpg)
Then, using the same setup on the mill as to make the bottom caps, bolted the new part down on top of the end cap and drilled the mounting holes into the ears on the end cap. The holes do not go all the way through the cap.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/57hx16vnr/IMG_9963.jpg)
Then tapped the holes, and bolted the gland down to mill the arc in it.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/de9wsrlqf/IMG_9964.jpg)
Here are the parts together after both glands are done:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/zeq99e4ef/IMG_9965.jpg)
Now to finally get the cylinders mounted onto the engine bed rails. I clamped the cylinders down onto the rails in the mill vise, and used the clearance drill size from drilling the flanges originally to line up the mill table on the holes. Then ran it down to just go into the bed rail, using the flange as a drill guide, to make a dimple in the rail like a center drill would. Then came back with the tap size drill and drilled the hole in the rail. This saved having to measure everything out and hope it would line up. By using the flange as a guide, I knew it would line up.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4lsy530lj/IMG_9966.jpg)
After tapping those three holes and running in bolts to hold the cylinder in place, turned the assembly on its side and repeated the process on the other three holes in the flanges.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tryy9187b/IMG_9967.jpg)
Here are a couple shots of the cylinders all mounted in place with some 3-48 screws.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/j6f2x11vr/IMG_9968.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/v9keklcxz/IMG_9969.jpg)
Next up will probably be to drill the holes for the crosshead guide rails, which are just a straight rail that run between the brackets sticking out behind the cylinders. With those holes done, I can reassemble the engine beds on the main frame, and get started on the steam chests.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 19, 2017, 10:57:28 PM
Really. Not a lot to say except mesmerizing.

Too busy  :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 19, 2017, 11:11:32 PM
Really. Not a lot to say except mesmerizing.

Too busy  :popcorn: :popcorn:

Hmmm... Possible to mesmerize Zee..... okay....

"Watch the watch.... Watch the watch.... Build the watch..."

 :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 19, 2017, 11:16:07 PM
One last thing for the day - drilled the holes for the crosshead guides in the rail brackets, and got it all assembled again. Hopefully I dont have to take it all apart again, but that does always happen to get at something in the middle! At a minimum the cylinders will get unbolted for the piston and steam chest fittings.

Anyway, here are some family shots of everything, including a couple with the boiler tube (still uncut, hanging out the back longer than it will) sitting in place. Good time to sit back and admire the work so far before heading off to dinner. Always need a good chair in any workshop for that purpose!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rr8eo7c1z/IMG_9971.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/ikq40x6tj/IMG_9973.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/nyow8gwjr/IMG_9977.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/9e7tdn1l3/IMG_9976.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: mike mott on April 19, 2017, 11:26:59 PM
And if had done all this fine work I would spend time in a good chair looking at it as well.

Mike
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 20, 2017, 12:34:23 AM
Nice shots!

Really cool model.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on April 20, 2017, 03:27:34 AM
Good work Chris. That "bad boy" is starting to bulk up.

You deserve some arm chair time.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 20, 2017, 03:41:24 AM
Thanks guys!


Definitely needed some chair time, been spring cleaning and organizing the shops, gotten a bit overgrown with the variety of boat, car, rc and furniture refinishing projects this past winter, time to clear up the leftovers and get some working room back.still got a bunch to do, lots more trips up and down stairs.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on April 20, 2017, 09:44:41 AM
Hi Chris,
 I'm glad that the guys have harvested at least some of the  :popcorn:!

At the rate you're going I don't think I'll have enuff short term!

Looking really good!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 20, 2017, 11:50:56 PM
I got a start on the steam chests this afternoon, starting by offseting the blank in the 4-jaw
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5mb9um4zr/IMG_9978.jpg)
to turn in the boss for the steam inlet pipe, which was drilled/tapped on the outer portion for an M4 fitting, and a 1/8" hole all the way in to the center area.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tsqijhghz/IMG_9980.jpg)
Did both chests to that stage, then turned them around and turned in the boss on the other end for the valve rod boss,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/vyktdzjyf/IMG_9982.jpg)
which was drilled through for a 5/64" rod and threaded M6 for the packing gland
(https://s5.postimg.cc/u81sci2fb/IMG_9983.jpg)
Here are the steam chests and covers so far
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5g2659l8n/IMG_9984.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/pby5kt29z/IMG_9985.jpg)
and then marked out for the center section to be removed:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/43kh3dnt3/IMG_9986.jpg)
That area will be chain drilled around the edge, and the center milled out and smoothed up. Probably tomorrow for that...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on April 21, 2017, 03:05:26 AM
Good example of using your indicator setup to offset a piece in the 4 jaw Chris. It looks like the offset boss may have come pretty close to the edge of the chuck opening when centering it for the centered boss?

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 21, 2017, 03:28:25 AM
Good example of using your indicator setup to offset a piece in the 4 jaw Chris. It looks like the offset boss may have come pretty close to the edge of the chuck opening when centering it for the centered boss?

Jim
Hi Jim,


It was close on two fronts (or sides?)


The offset for the first boss put the end of the one jaw very close to hitting the lathe bed. Then when doing the centered one, the first one just made it to the middle opening of the chuck. The boss was a little too large to fit in the jaw slot. Both cases could have been worked around, but everything cleared fine and I could put the back face against the chuck to know it was square. Just ran the speed down for the interrupted cuts, all came out good.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Nick_G on April 21, 2017, 09:54:19 AM
.
I am still watching this masterpiece progress.  :)

Nick
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: jschoenly on April 21, 2017, 02:24:15 PM
Very cool piece coming together!

Are the cylinder center lines really that much lower than the crank shaft?   Looks goofy but don't recall the prototype.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on April 21, 2017, 04:03:33 PM
That is one bad ass Machine Chris! Your the man Dog........ :praise2:


Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 21, 2017, 04:17:18 PM
Thanks guys! Very kind.

Jared - the centerline of the crankshaft is only a little above the centerline of the piston, and it shows that way in the drawings and photos of the original too. I think they had to raise it slightly to get clearance for the differential  case above the ground, and the engine had to be low enough so the reversing gear links would clear under the boiler. The photos of the model were taken at an angle that make it look like a much bigger height difference, but it is raised less than half the thickness of the shaft. Its possible that I have it a little too high, given that I am interpolating a lot of the measurements from their photos. I'll find out for sure when I see it in person next month, going to be taking LOTS of photos, measurements, drawings while I am there. Naturally it would have been nice to go there before starting, but that was too late in the season for me last fall.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 21, 2017, 06:30:06 PM
This morning started in on the center section of the steam chests. I went around the inside of the portion to be removed, and chain drilled a series of holes to remove the bulk of the material, leaving just the webs between the holes.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9sne1u6rr/IMG_9987.jpg)
Then switched to a small end mill and plunge cut through each web till the center chunk could be removed.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/byhowca87/IMG_9988.jpg)
After that it was just a matter of a few passes to take the opening out to size and smooth up the walls.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9v79ooafb/IMG_9989.jpg)
Next up was to drill the mounting holes, using the same pattern as used on the steam chest itself. These are all 2-56 clearance.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/k7y5ohtc7/IMG_9992.jpg)
The last steps on the chests was to mill out the recesses in the sides to match the pattern in the original casting, which went thinner between the holes to reduce the amount of metal. First did the ends,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/99mw6b4qv/IMG_9996.jpg)
and then the sides. Due to the bosses sticking out, I used the other chest and one of the covers as spacers.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/d7a5vprk7/IMG_9997.jpg)
Then, a quick trip to the belt sander to round the outer corners, and the chests are done.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/s4imwq4sn/IMG_9999.jpg)
A quick test fit to see if I got the holes right - had to remove some burs and it all went into place.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/za5slfohz/IMG_0002.jpg)
Still need to make the studs to replace these screws, and a pile of small nuts to hold it all down. Same for the end caps on the cylinders.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on April 21, 2017, 07:47:57 PM
Doesn't it make you feel great, when after milling all of those mating parts in individual set-ups, the bolts all go in!! Got to be one of those "great moments in machining" feelings.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 21, 2017, 07:59:26 PM
Doesn't it make you feel great, when after milling all of those mating parts in individual set-ups, the bolts all go in!! Got to be one of those "great moments in machining" feelings.---Brian
Oh yes!

Too bad it doesn't happen more often... At least this time I kept my notes on the hole pattern, sometimes I get too neat and throw it out before its needed. Sometimes they are off just a little, and only require drilling out the clearance hole a size, sometimes it takes some filing, sometimes its a new part...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 22, 2017, 09:24:23 PM
Not really anything to show today, it is time to make up another handful of 2-56 nuts for the cylinder assembly. These will be about .150" between flats, the .125 ones I used on the rear track bearing blocks looked too small here, and the next size hex bar up is .1875", and that looked too big, so first am cutting some stainless down for the middle size, and turning out a pile of nuts... The squirrels outside keep trying to steal them...  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 22, 2017, 10:30:37 PM
Not really anything to show today,

 :cussing:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 22, 2017, 11:09:45 PM
Not really anything to show today,

 :cussing:
Well, actually I do have this to show, figured I'd hear SOMETHING back on that post!
Here is a picture of the parts I have been making, trying to perfect them...
 :lolb:

(https://s5.postimg.cc/gtycrbrgn/Hayes_Bolt_Plaque.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 22, 2017, 11:53:21 PM
 :lolb: :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Walsheng on April 23, 2017, 01:13:35 AM
I do believe I have needed all of them at one time or another!

John
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 23, 2017, 01:26:17 AM
I hope the nuts don't match that plaque! Got a good batch, about 5-1/2 dozen drilled and parted off, ready to debur the parting edge of the holes and tapping them. I need 26 per cylinder, for the caps and steam chests, so a few for next parts and to drop and lose.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 23, 2017, 01:32:30 AM
Was just reading the latest progress on Kim's tractor, and realized that I have forgotten to drill the steam inlet passages in my cylinders! Whoops!


Gee lots of pressure, no movement... What could be wrong?!?!   :wallbang:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 23, 2017, 01:41:52 AM
That's a LOT of nuts Chris....the squirrels should be elated!! :)

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on April 23, 2017, 02:55:57 AM
I hope the nuts don't match that plaque! Got a good batch, about 5-1/2 dozen drilled and parted off, ready to debur the parting edge of the holes and tapping them. I need 26 per cylinder, for the caps and steam chests, so a few for next parts and to drop and lose.

Well...............NUTS................I turn my back for a little while and look at what all you get done!  :lolb: Myself............I'm gettin NUT-IN done on my P & W build!  :Lol:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 23, 2017, 03:59:47 AM
I hope the nuts don't match that plaque! Got a good batch, about 5-1/2 dozen drilled and parted off, ready to debur the parting edge of the holes and tapping them. I need 26 per cylinder, for the caps and steam chests, so a few for next parts and to drop and lose.

Well...............NUTS................I turn my back for a little while and look at what all you get done!  :lolb: Myself............I'm gettin NUT-IN done on my P & W build!  :Lol:

Jim
So stop working on that silly airplane and get back to the engine! Nuttin else matters!   :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on April 23, 2017, 04:57:18 AM
Was just reading the latest progress on Kim's tractor, and realized that I have forgotten to drill the steam inlet passages in my cylinders! Whoops!

Gee lots of pressure, no movement... What could be wrong?!?!   :wallbang:

NUTS is right!  But that's an easy problem to fix.  Its a lot easier to take away the metal than to put it back on!  :naughty:
But that would have been frustrating to try and figure out what was going on!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Roger B on April 23, 2017, 08:20:45 AM
Just catching up on this again  :ThumbsUp: Beautiful  :praise2:  :praise2:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: mike mott on April 23, 2017, 02:41:13 PM
Nice work on the cylinder chests.

Mike
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on April 23, 2017, 03:26:43 PM
I hope the nuts don't match that plaque! Got a good batch, about 5-1/2 dozen drilled and parted off, ready to debur the parting edge of the holes and tapping them. I need 26 per cylinder, for the caps and steam chests, so a few for next parts and to drop and lose.

Well...............NUTS................I turn my back for a little while and look at what all you get done!  :lolb: Myself............I'm gettin NUT-IN done on my P & W build!  :Lol:

Jim
So stop working on that silly airplane and get back to the engine! Nuttin else matters!   :lolb:

 :ROFL:  :ROFL:  :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 23, 2017, 03:42:03 PM
Again, Nut-en much to show but the work on the nuts...

Reducing the size of the hex bar stock - got lots of the next size up, and it goes very quick to mill off the back side in the vise, rotating one facet per pass.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6ccw9bg07/IMG_0003.jpg)
After drilling and parting off, wound up with a big pile of 2-56 nut blanks, the dozen on the right are tapped, rest are in progress. Using the v-groove in a small vise to hold them for tapping.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/d43bc64zr/IMG_0004.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 24, 2017, 05:46:12 PM
Slight step back to make the steam inlet passages that I had forgotten.  :facepalm2:

Used a center drill to start the holes at the slight angle to make them meet the middle of the inlet ports.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/o0mq1cf5z/IMG_0006.jpg)
then drilled through to the ports, after measuring how deep to drill in case I did not feel the breakthrough (which I did, but better safe)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/hbg6lbttz/IMG_0007.jpg)
and used a small end mill to open up the passage into the end of the cylinder
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wy7fyp7lz/IMG_0008.jpg)
Now, back to the cap and cover nuts and studs, got them about done:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9ldztxgw7/IMG_0010.jpg)
A little filing on the ends of the studs to smooth off the burs, and should be ready to move on to the pistons...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: scc on April 24, 2017, 08:19:53 PM
Love it :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on April 24, 2017, 09:35:01 PM
Looking good Chris.  I love the look of those cylinders with all the studs and nuts!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 24, 2017, 10:06:16 PM
Thanks! The built-up cylinders came out better than I had hoped, just like the cast ones on the original look.

Been working on the pistons this afternoon, pics coming soon.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 24, 2017, 10:21:03 PM
The pistons on this engine are steel with a viton o-ring seal, had great luck with them on the last few engines so sticking with them. I started out with some 5/8" 303 rod stock that was a close fit on the bore, and started out by polishing the bores with some Timesavers lapping compound mixed with oil to smooth out the last of the tool marks. After that was done, and washing out the bores, took a length of the rod and used a parting tool to cut in the grooves for the o-rings, making them just wide enough for them to fit in, and deep enough to give a nice sliding fit. Took several tries on the depth, taking off another thou at a time till I liked the fit. When dry they are a little sticky, but with some oil they slide better but still snug. Once the first slot was a good fit, used its measurements to make a second one farther in on the bar so I could get both pistons out at once. Drilled the center, and parted off.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6aytlj5qf/IMG_0012.jpg)
The piston rods step down at the piston, and are threaded at the end for a nut on top of the piston. From what I've seen of the real one, they did the same (just a lot bigger!). Started out by carefully centering the bar stock in the 4-jaw (grips better than the 3-jaw for threading, and lets me get the centering better).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/usqx9f8av/IMG_0013.jpg)
Turned the step on both ends (lower end goes into the crosshead) and threaded them both.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4yh4jn8av/IMG_0014.jpg)
With the pistons test fit, went ahead and loctited the piston and nut in place.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ex6ojv747/IMG_0015.jpg)
Here are the cylinder assemblies so far, the pistons will move with hand pressure, and I can tell that the lower cap is centered right since there is no binding point - very happy!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6sykf4kp3/IMG_0016.jpg)
Next up will be to make the paper gaskets and button up the cylinders, then start on the valve sliders/rods/glands. Good stopping point for the day!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on April 24, 2017, 11:07:21 PM
Hi Chris,
 The cylinders are coming on, very nice work.......mind you we have come to expect no less.......the gnomes have been quite for a while, have they got something else they are playing with?

One question though, how come you didn't recess the nut in the top of the piston? Helps keep the swept volume down & allows the piston stroke to be more even.......well that's what I got told anyway.

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 24, 2017, 11:19:40 PM
Hi Chris,
 The cylinders are coming on, very nice work.......mind you we have come to expect no less.......the gnomes have been quite for a while, have they got something else they are playing with?

One question though, how come you didn't recess the nut in the top of the piston? Helps keep the swept volume down & allows the piston stroke to be more even.......well that's what I got told anyway.

Cheers Kerrin
Thought about recessing them, but the piston is thin, the nut is only 1/16 thick at most, would have had to make the recess big enough for a driver to fit, so I didn't think it would matter much on a low speed engine.

And the elves are busy getting ready for the summer boating season!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on April 25, 2017, 06:50:36 AM
Great work on the Cylinders Chris.

You're planning to run this on actual steam, right?  Will the paper gaskets cut it?  Or do you need something more substantial to hold up under the temperature and moisture of steam? I'm wondering this form my own build...

Thanks,
Kim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 25, 2017, 01:32:53 PM
Great work on the Cylinders Chris.

You're planning to run this on actual steam, right?  Will the paper gaskets cut it?  Or do you need something more substantial to hold up under the temperature and moisture of steam? I'm wondering this form my own build...

Thanks,
Kim
Yes, will have a working butane fired boiler, can also run on airfor indoor displays. I have a roll of a fiber paper gasket material, forget where I got it, McMaster? Amazon? It works well for cylinder seals, is a bit thicker and denser than brown paper, is meant for this kind of seal. Very similar to the stuff Stuart Turner put in kits, a little thicker.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on April 25, 2017, 03:09:52 PM
OK, that makes sense.  I'm going to have to find me some of that fiber gasket paper!
Thanks Chris,
Kim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 25, 2017, 04:09:34 PM
OK, that makes sense.  I'm going to have to find me some of that fiber gasket paper!
Thanks Chris,
Kim

Found the order, here is what I am using:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000GKEXMA/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1
and
https://www.amazon.com/GASKET-MATERIAL-FIBER-1-64/dp/B0002KKI5K/ref=pd_sim_121_1?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B0002KKI5K&pd_rd_r=XWN0X58ADEA7XZKFECTF&pd_rd_w=R6UHn&pd_rd_wg=EGvsO&psc=1&refRID=XWN0X58ADEA7XZKFECTF

It is an automotive gasket material, seems to stand up to the heat and steam just fine.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 25, 2017, 04:24:26 PM
Made up the cylinder gaskets this morning. Started each one by using the cover as a template and cutting through the bolt holes with a exacto knife tip, poking through and turning in each hole.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/avlgju6dj/IMG_0020.jpg)
Then going around the inside of the opening, slicing off the inside material
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ak4072pxj/IMG_0021.jpg)
putting on the cover
(https://s5.postimg.cc/l87r5wzwn/IMG_0022.jpg)
and going around the outside to trim that back
(https://s5.postimg.cc/q857dv5jb/IMG_0023.jpg)
Likewise on the steam chests:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ky4u0bao7/IMG_0025.jpg)
Also got a start on painting the engine parts. The rest of the frame was spray painted, but these parts have so many nooks and crannies in all directions that I just brushed the paint on. First coat on, going to need another to cover completely.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/g0r9f78p3/IMG_0027.jpg)
Interesting how the brushed on paint came up glossier than the sprayed on, its the same type automotive paint, rattle-can vs a quart can of the spray ready paint. Might need to blend in the frame to match better.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on April 25, 2017, 09:16:44 PM
Thanks for the info Chris.
The brown truck is now headed this way! :)
Kim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 25, 2017, 11:12:43 PM
I've been busy but still trying to watch and  :popcorn:
Looking good.

Goes for all you other members too. I try and read as much as I can.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 25, 2017, 11:38:26 PM
I've been busy but still trying to watch and  :popcorn:
Looking good.

Goes for all you other members too. I try and read as much as I can.
Thanks Zee, we are all waiting for the invites to your open house and shop tours when the construction is done!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 26, 2017, 02:25:49 AM
Exceptional work as always Chris. One of my go to threads on a daily basis.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 27, 2017, 12:27:07 AM
Exceptional work as always Chris. One of my go to threads on a daily basis.

Bill
Thanks Bill!

Not much on the model today, just a second coat of paint on some of the engine parts. Finally got some really nice weather here, and went wandering in the canoe! Tomorrow looks to be mid-80s before a drop back to milder stuff for a couple days...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 27, 2017, 01:14:49 AM
Chris, have you ever considered getting a shim punch set similar to this:https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/52426152

If you watch for sales you can get it for about half that price and this set can punch washers as well in soft materials up to .020" thick and in steel shim stock up to about .010" Would work well for that 1/64" fiber gasket stock you linked to. I will usually make a plan copy of the part needing the gasket and glue it to the gasket material and then use that as a guide for punching all the holes. Works like a charm and makes nice clean holes easily. Just a thought.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 27, 2017, 01:19:47 AM
Chris, have you ever considered getting a shim punch set similar to this:https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/52426152

If you watch for sales you can get it for about half that price and this set can punch washers as well in soft materials up to .020" thick and in steel shim stock up to about .010" Would work well for that 1/64" fiber gasket stock you linked to. I will usually make a plan copy of the part needing the gasket and glue it to the gasket material and then use that as a guide for punching all the holes. Works like a charm and makes nice clean holes easily. Just a thought.

Bill
Used one back in my working days, one of the techs had one in his toolbox in the lab. Using the kife method, it goes really quick, and leaves a little material around the screw shanks that helps them seal when the holes are really close to the edges, which they are a lot. This gasket material cuts really asy, but has enough fibers that the holes dont rip out. The larger openings would still need to be cut anyway. Guess I am just stuck in that rut! Lazy? Yes. Have my habits ingrained really deep? Yup!
Doing all 8 of these gaskets only took about 10 minutes total anyway.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: AOG on April 27, 2017, 02:24:53 AM
Here's a trick I learned for making those gaskets. Before you put in the studs, mark out the gaskets by pressing the cylinder ends and steam chest into a stamp pad and then the gasket material. That will give you an outline with all of the holes marked. It makes cutting them out much easier.

Tony
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 27, 2017, 02:39:35 AM
Here's a trick I learned for make those gaskets. Before you put in the studs, mark out the gaskets by pressing the cylinder ends and steam chest into a stamp pad and then the gasket material. That will give you an outline with all of the holes marked. It makes cutting them out much easier.

Tony
Now that is clever! Thanks!!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: paul gough on April 27, 2017, 06:42:13 AM
I second that! Thanks Tony, An old dog like me needs some new tricks. Regards Paul Gough.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Admiral_dk on April 27, 2017, 07:29:11 PM
I used to use oil instead of ink in my youth - and completely forgot about it until Tony mentioned his method  :old:
Ink gives better contrast and oil is already in the workshop and easier to clean  :thinking:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 27, 2017, 07:34:25 PM
I should have thought of it - have used a simaler technique when inletting parts into gun stocks, using 'inletting black' which is basically a thick ink that does not dry out. Dab a little on a part, press it into place in the recess it is going in, and it leaves a black mark wherever it is touching at the bottom or along the sides of the hole. Keep removing those spots, and it will slide right in.
Thanks Tony!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 27, 2017, 10:43:02 PM
Speaking of gaskets...
I have a CO2 laser. Useful for making gaskets? Or will the material simply burn?
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 28, 2017, 01:06:30 AM
Speaking of gaskets...
I have a CO2 laser. Useful for making gaskets? Or will the material simply burn?
Interesting question. If it can cut through before the surrounding fibers catch it should be good. This material is meant for auto use, so the flash point should be a little higher than plain paper.


Is it a plotter type laser or handheld?


How many gigawatts is it?   :zap:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 28, 2017, 01:22:43 AM
Is it a plotter type laser or handheld?
How many gigawatts is it?   :zap:

Plotter. Currently buried under a bunch of stuff in the basement.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 28, 2017, 01:28:34 AM
Is it a plotter type laser or handheld?
How many gigawatts is it?   :zap:

Plotter. Currently buried under a bunch of stuff in the basement.
Worth a try, be interesting to see how it works out. You should be able to use it for wood parts for your diorama too!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on April 28, 2017, 03:50:24 AM
Hi Chris,
 So the rest of the  :popcorn: is in! So should have enuff to get thru the winter watching you in summer making progress!

Oh & when Zee brakes out the laser & starts vaporizing gaskets we'll have a heat source for more  :popcorn:! Be interested to see how it goes Zee. Seen advertised here on the box a plotter cutter thingy for craft work & wondered how it would work on gaskets, might have to do some more investergating!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 28, 2017, 12:35:19 PM
Hi Chris,
 So the rest of the  :popcorn: is in! So should have enuff to get thru the winter watching you in summer making progress!

Oh & when Zee brakes out the laser & starts vaporizing gaskets we'll have a heat source for more  :popcorn: ! Be interested to see how it goes Zee. Seen advertised here on the box a plotter cutter thingy for craft work & wondered how it would work on gaskets, might have to do some more investergating!

Cheers Kerrin

I've seen one in the catalogs from the model places too, wondered how well they actually worked.

Hmm, individually heat the popcorn kernels by laser beam....?!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 28, 2017, 02:24:39 PM
Got to work yesterday on the crosshead sliders, which connect the piston and connecting rods, and run along the guide bars hanging off the engine beds. On the original, they were cast iron fittings with a thin bronze pad where they ran along the guide bars. For the model, I am simplifying them a little, making the entire part out of bronze. The closest bar stock I had in bronze was some 3/4" round bar, so I clamped that in a 3/4" collet in the square block, and milled it down to the size needed:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/44wplo2br/IMG_0034.jpg)
Then I sketched on the slots/holes to help keep the orientation correct through the next steps (lines just used to keep things oriented, not for milling to), and milled the slots where it will slide on the guide bar.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/awn4oirbb/IMG_0036.jpg)
Then milled in the larger slots where the connecting rod end will go in,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kigp4tih3/IMG_0037.jpg)
and turned it 90 degrees to square up the round corners that the end mill left
(https://s5.postimg.cc/irxo3c0xz/IMG_0038.jpg)
There is a slot to separate the base from the con rod arms, which is too small for my end mills so that was done with a slitting saw, a couple passes to get the total height needed.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/t3em9qi13/IMG_0039.jpg)
Thats all I could do with the parts still connected, so they were sawn from the main bar. The two bottom caps were left connected to each other for one more step.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8kjq4o43r/IMG_0040.jpg)
And then the sawn edges milled to size, and then the bottom caps sawn apart.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qbvcj4jif/IMG_0041.jpg)
Next step was drilling the holes for bolting the top and bottom parts together.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kdhj8w0jr/IMG_0042.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/yz8jx4xc7/IMG_0043.jpg)
With the mounting holes drilled and tapped, here are the parts:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/so3cgpw3r/IMG_0044.jpg)
They still need the cross holes for the con rod drilled, and the arm ends rounded off, plus the holes in the end for the piston rods.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 28, 2017, 07:55:48 PM
Finishing off the crossheads - drilled the holes for the conrod pin and the piston rod, and rounded the ends of the arms on the sander.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7oru2yjt3/IMG_0045.jpg)
and turned in the small boss around the piston rod hole:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8sbyex4g7/IMG_0046.jpg)
then test fit everything:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/71sxdfmx3/IMG_0050.jpg)
A little filing on one of the guides to get a smooth movement, and all is good.   :)

Then, continued on with the painting process on the engine. To get to the rest of the surfaces, I needed to turn the model upside down. Now, here is a view of a Lombard Hauler not seen recently, and usually only after the words "Uh Oh, missed THAT !@#%@ing turn!"
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3w8bn84av/IMG_0051.jpg)
So, continued on with a first coat on the underside of the engine parts....
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3kvgo7d8n/IMG_0054.jpg)
The differentiall itself is going to get a cover later on. Assuming I can get myself to cover it up, anyway! The original had a sheet metal cover over the diff gears, I do need to get a look at the real one next month to figure out where they put the joints, its at least a 2 piece cover, maybe 3, hard to tell from the pictures of it they have. Lots of things to take pictures of and measure while I am there!

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 29, 2017, 12:38:51 AM
And cranking along to the crank discs.... Since the cylinders are on the outside of the frames and the eccentrics on the inside, the crankshaft on the Lombard is a straightforward item with a disc at either end with a crankpin in it. So, started with a length of stainless bar long enough for both discs, left over from one of the other parts, centered it up and drilled/bored the hole to go over the end of the shaft.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6szy18zif/IMG_0055.jpg)
Then moved the chuck over to the rotary table on the mill, offset for the crank pin, and drilled the hole for the crank pin with an M4-thread sized tap drill, down through both discs.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/g224bd8ef/IMG_0056.jpg)
Then used the rotary table to offset to both sides, chain drilling a series of holes then milling the connecting webs out to form the balancing slots on either side of the pin hole.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4e82gtj9j/IMG_0057.jpg)
After taking the chuck back to the lathe and parting off the two discs, here are the parts so far:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4gry3nmx3/IMG_0059.jpg)
and where they go on the end of the crank shaft:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tyacn94nb/IMG_0058.jpg)
Still need to drill through the discs and the shaft for a retaining pin. Or may just loctite it in place. Though not sure I trust just the loctite, may do both. Or drill/tap for a through bolt so the discs can be removed if needed someday. Need to ponder on that one. Any suggestions?

Whichever way it is done, I need to pull the crankshaft out once again to do these steps. The two crank discs need to be 90 degrees offset from each other. The eccentrics for the valves are held with set screws, so they can be adjusted for timing the valves later on. With a little luck this will be the last time the shaft needs to come out - not hard, but a lot of screws and bearings to keep track of.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on April 29, 2017, 03:45:14 AM
Good progress Chris.  :ThumbsUp:

You've been getting a lot of use out of those collets and collet blocks. I sure like mine!

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 29, 2017, 04:02:14 AM
Good progress Chris.  :ThumbsUp:

You've been getting a lot of use out of those collets and collet blocks. I sure like mine!

Jim
Yeah, certain parts they are just the thing!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on April 29, 2017, 11:14:02 PM
Looking good Dog and still with you bud!...... :praise2:


Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 30, 2017, 01:38:18 AM
Looking good Dog and still with you bud!...... :praise2:


Don
Thanks Don!


Today was off doing family stuff most of the day, got in a little more paint work, and was about to do the crank pins when I spotted a brain fart on the plans, and the time went to fixing the 3d model and reprinting the con rod parts. Then time for a good nap!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on April 30, 2017, 03:27:37 AM
Looking good Dog and still with you bud!...... :praise2:


Don
Thanks Don!


Today was off doing family stuff most of the day, got in a little more paint work, and was about to do the crank pins when I spotted a brain fart on the plans, and the time went to fixing the 3d model and reprinting the con rod parts. Then time for a good nap!

Boy................. doesn't that just really tick you off when the designer makes a mistake like that?  :rant:  Oh wait...............you are the designer!  :lolb:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 30, 2017, 03:31:18 AM
Looking good Dog and still with you bud!...... :praise2:


Don
Thanks Don!


Today was off doing family stuff most of the day, got in a little more paint work, and was about to do the crank pins when I spotted a brain fart on the plans, and the time went to fixing the 3d model and reprinting the con rod parts. Then time for a good nap!

Boy................. doesn't that just really tick you off when the designer makes a mistake like that?  :rant:  Oh wait...............you are the designer!  :lolb:

Jim


I just fired myself!!


 :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on April 30, 2017, 04:01:22 AM

I just fired myself!!

 :lolb:

I know...............good help is so hard to find these days!  :ROFL:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 30, 2017, 05:30:24 PM
To finish up the crank discs, decided to attach them by drilling/tapping through the disc and the shaft for a 4-40 bolt, and also running in some medium strength loctite. Should hold plenty strong, and still allow it to come apart if need be.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/e3rd6jjyf/IMG_0060.jpg)
The crank pins were turned up from some 1/4" hex bar, threaded on the end and the shank left to fit the bearings.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8gv092hfr/IMG_0061.jpg)
At this point, am starting in on the connecting rods, which will have a bronze bearing at each end, and have a u-shaped retainer and wedges at each end like the original. I've been wanting to try one of these for a while, nows the time!
The big end bearings started out as a length of bronze rod, drilled .1875 for the pin on the lathe, then switched over to the collet block on the mill for the rest of the shaping. I drilled deep enough to get both bearings out of this piece. With the square collet block, squared up the first two sides,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bozhm43pj/IMG_0062.jpg)
then turned the block 90 degrees to do the other two sides.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/s04nfjmiv/IMG_0063.jpg)
Next step was to mill in the slots so the bearings will fit into the con rod arm and brackets. Once the depth was set for the first side,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xcthtoafb/IMG_0064.jpg)
the height was locked in and the block turned 90 and a pass made on the other three sides. The edge of the block was indexed off the vise jaws with a straight edge to make sure the slots all lined up.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/u78w3grt3/IMG_0065.jpg)
Then the table was moved over, and the slots for the other bearing made the same way.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/u8itwvtmv/IMG_0066.jpg)
With the first two bearings shaped, back over to the lathe to part them off, then take them to final thickness in the 4-jaw (don't trust the parting tool for exact thicknesses, unless I get it ground/sharpened/aligned just right, it tends to pull to one side just a little).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/m4aps577r/IMG_0067.jpg)
Here are the parts so far:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qepdnqcav/IMG_0068.jpg)
and a family shot of the engine with some paint on:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5j33chg3r/IMG_0069.jpg)
Next step will be to make the small end bearings, they look just like the first two, just smaller.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 30, 2017, 06:04:28 PM
You have been busy Chris, just getting caught up to your current progress...impressive as always.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 30, 2017, 06:09:46 PM
Thanks Bil! Getting close to feeding in some pressure - con rods, valve rods/sliders to go...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on April 30, 2017, 07:54:26 PM
Just like the big end bearings, the small end ones were milled out of round bronze bar, and the center slots milled in before parting off the two bearings.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qh99akfyf/IMG_0073.jpg)
The two smaller bearings ready to go:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/akahdunk7/IMG_0074.jpg)
And turned/threaded the small end pivot bolts:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/vv81i45on/IMG_0075.jpg)
Test fitted in place:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8ieldceyv/IMG_0078.jpg)
Next up will be the con rods and the u-shaped brackets for the ends. Here is a rendering of where I am going with them:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/lb2pd9qkn/Engine_Bed_v58_-_Con_Rod.jpgg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/b2a87g2iv/Engine_Bed_v58.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Roger B on April 30, 2017, 08:09:39 PM
Lots of excellent tiny machining going on  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on May 01, 2017, 12:18:12 AM
Well one thing for sure Dog you are persistent. Damn man you just a real trooper and this engine is amazing to watch it being transformed. Damn .......I.........like...... :Love:

Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 01, 2017, 12:28:47 AM
Thanks​ guys!


Just finished some work on the con rod center sections, the outer shapes are milled, ready to drill for the slots. Pictures later. The u shaped brackets are next, so far have changed my mind several times on how to make them. Current thought is to silver solder them from three pieces. They need a square inner corner, and are too deep for a small end mill to reach, plus being thin cross section.


I've been pushing it a bit in the hopes of having the engine running on air for the museum trip in a couple of weeks. If no roadblock appears, thats possible still.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 01, 2017, 01:29:43 AM
I've been pushing it a bit in the hopes of having the engine running on air for the museum trip in a couple of weeks. If no roadblock appears, thats possible still.

Oven getting a workout making those cookies for your elves?  ;D

Engine running on air in a couple of weeks eh? Looking forward to the video!

Great model.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 01, 2017, 01:53:44 AM
I've been pushing it a bit in the hopes of having the engine running on air for the museum trip in a couple of weeks. If no roadblock appears, thats possible still.

Oven getting a workout making those cookies for your elves?  ;D

Engine running on air in a couple of weeks eh? Looking forward to the video!

Great model.
Thanks Zee!


Oven has been resting from cookies, still have one more bag from last batch in the freezer. Will need to whomp up another batch soon though, collecting ingredients...


The slots and wedges for the conrods are going to be interesting, very small and thin. Will need the elves for that!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 01, 2017, 02:55:57 PM
More on the con rods today. Got the stock taken down to overall width, then stepped in the sides on the mill.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ow36a8khz/IMG_0079.jpg)
and thinned the center sections
(https://s5.postimg.cc/enap4ewg7/IMG_0084.jpg)
Here is one of the rods propped up between the bearings:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ck09wqwnb/IMG_0085.jpg)
Last steps on these parts is to cut the slots for the wedges that will hold the u-brackets on the ends. To start, chain drilled with a .062 drill at each end:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3q9dfn9on/IMG_0086.jpg)
and then used the same air-powered tool with a carbide dental bit, just like was done on the steam ports in an earlier post, followed by a needle file to square the ends of the slots. Here is a shot of the slotted arms, with a bit of the stock that will make the wedges through one.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bx1d77zrb/IMG_0088.jpg)
Now its time to make the u-brackets for the ends. I thought about bending them up, but its such a tight set of bends that it would be tough to do, also considered milling from a solid piece, but the arms will be quite long and thin and am not sure if that would work out, so am currently thinking of silver soldering two narrow strips to a base center piece and then cutting the center piece to length... Hmmm...

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 01, 2017, 04:21:02 PM
Well, I went back into the shop to figure out the best way to solder up the u bracket parts, and had a (nother) change of mind, and decided to try bending them up instead. The 1/16" thick stock bent well when cold for the chain parts, but these parts are a tight 90 degree bend, so I used the little handheld torch to heat up the spots for the bends, and bent them around a piece of bar stock the right thickness. First bend held in the vise, second clamped between the two bits of bar stock since the vise jaws are too thick (need to make some narrow extensions for the jaws someday).
Here it is with the first bend done, ready to heat for the second bend:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/f55uk9m13/IMG_0089.jpg)
Second bend done, gets it close:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/yoaftmksn/IMG_0090.jpg)
Then clamped loosely in the vise, heated up the end, held a large bar on other end of the bar stock, and tapped it in with a hammer to close up the bends on the end.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gzip2091j/IMG_0091.jpg)
With the bending done, a few strokes with a square file to get rid of the slight inside radius, and with a flat file to take the bends back down to original thickness (bending made the corners thicker), and it fit nicely around the bearing.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/61c0xk9tz/IMG_0093.jpg)
Both large brackets are done, need to make the ones for the small end, and then will slot them for the wedges...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rc9l1tryf/IMG_0094.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on May 01, 2017, 05:47:08 PM
Fantastic execution Chris.  Impressive work.

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 01, 2017, 10:51:19 PM
Thanks Bob!

One more bit done this afternoon, got the small end straps made like the big end ones, and chain drilled and ground out the slots like on the arms.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xwcd865zb/IMG_0097.jpg)
Here are the parts so far, ready for wedges...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/j1nrtzwef/IMG_0098.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 02, 2017, 12:14:48 AM
Those should do the trick Chris, nicely done.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on May 02, 2017, 02:58:09 AM
Well it looks like "Plan C" worked quite well!  :ThumbsUp:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 02, 2017, 03:02:10 AM
I went back and forth on the plans so much, I might be better off with a different alphabet! Simplist worked out the easiest!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: paul gough on May 02, 2017, 05:20:37 AM
Good to see you including some 'blacksmithing' for the bearing straps,(U Brackets). As you say "Simplist" is best, always is, but unfortunately not many of us seem to have the clarity of focus to get hold of it, having the 'vision' to see it is the mark of a master designer/constructor. Regards, Paul Gough.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 02, 2017, 06:23:49 PM
Good to see you including some 'blacksmithing' for the bearing straps,(U Brackets). As you say "Simplist" is best, always is, but unfortunately not many of us seem to have the clarity of focus to get hold of it, having the 'vision' to see it is the mark of a master designer/constructor. Regards, Paul Gough.

Thanks Paul! Its tough to break the thought pattern of "to a carpenter, everything is a nail, etc" sometimes...  For this I used the shop-elf-sized anvil!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 02, 2017, 06:33:26 PM
And finishing up on the connecting rods! The wedges that hold the straps in place against the bearings are in two parts, one with a notched side, one with a smooth side, both have the same angle on one side so that together they still fit flat up against the slot ends.
To make the notched wedges, started with some 1/16" flat stock, and milled in slots that are just wider than the straps, two wide, two narrow:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/v5ywgm0uf/IMG_0099.jpg)
Then turned them over and held at a slight angle to form the wedge slope. The pen marks told me where the ends of the wedges were since I could not see the slots for this step.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4z2aye7yf/IMG_0100.jpg)
Then made up a set of thin wedges with the same angle. To get the final fit required a little tweaking of the wedge thickness with a file, but they drew up nice and tight. The slots in the straps and the arms are offset from each other, so that the wedges only act on the straps at the inner end, and only on the arms at the outer end, so driving in the wedges pulls the straps farther inwards.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4atgfg98n/IMG_0101.jpg)
Once a good fit was found on each wedge, the wedges were trimmed off from the longer bar. Here are the parts ready to go on the engine:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ytj90eyfb/IMG_0102.jpg)
And some family shots of the progress so far. The engine will turn over by hand at this point, things are a little stiff, may need some running in to loosen it up, but nothing is hitting or binding. I did need to take two turns on the piston rod connection to the crosshead to get the piston travel centered. So far so good, next up will be the valves!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tw5ofawg7/IMG_0104.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/gta1w1687/IMG_0111.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/55g01hh3b/IMG_0112.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 02, 2017, 07:52:41 PM
Great family shot Chris! Even in that state it will be a hit at the upcoming show I am sure.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 02, 2017, 11:13:47 PM
Wow! That last shot was a real show stopper.

Nice!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on May 02, 2017, 11:34:33 PM
Just awesome Chris!


Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 03, 2017, 12:04:42 AM
Thanks guys! Not too long before I can throw some compressed air into it, just the valve slider/rod assembly to go, plus a temporary air connection.

I've got the elves pumping iron so they can hold up the back of the frame so it doesn't jump off the bench!

Okay, okay, I'll just take the drive chains off the first time....   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on May 03, 2017, 01:14:52 AM
What the Three Musketeers(Bill, Don and zee) said.


-Bob
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 03, 2017, 01:25:52 AM
What the Three Musketeers(Bill, Don and zee) said.


-Bob
Thanks!  There's a Monty Python sketch lurking there...   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on May 03, 2017, 03:14:10 AM
Couple of questions Chris: How are you going to keep those wedges in place and how did they keep them in place on the full site engine? They remind me of a line out of Pete Culler's book "Skiffs and Schooners" in talking about small classic sailing skiffs: "Why use a fitting when a knot will do?"

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 03, 2017, 03:57:59 AM
Couple of questions Chris: How are you going to keep those wedges in place and how did they keep them in place on the full site engine? They remind me of a line out of Pete Culler's book "Skiffs and Schooners" in talking about small classic sailing skiffs: "Why use a fitting when a knot will do?"

Jim
Hi Jim, first off I have to say, Culler is a favorite of mine, built a couple of his designs and I still use his shearstrake paint scheme on all my lapstrake boats. I learned a lot of my boatbuilding skills from Mystic Seaport, Culler, John Gardner, others.


In this case, a knot won't do, since you can't push a rope, as the saying goes.


The main reason, I think, for the wedges is to allow for tightening a split bearing as it wears. Could be wrong on that. Also allows disassembly without taking the rest of the mechanism apart. Length of the rod can also be changed by slipping in spacers between the main rod and the bearing.


Anyway, the wedges have a very shallow angle so just the friction holds a lot. With the notch in one wedge, only one can move, and the narrow end is down. On a lot of the ones I have seen up close, they had a small set screw into the wide edge of the wedge to keep it from vibrating loose. Mine is too small for that, so a drop of loctite does the trick.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on May 03, 2017, 04:31:48 AM
Thanks Chris. The set screw makes sense. So does loctite for what we do. One of the things I find interesting about the Lombard is that, in that era, it looks like there was a combination of machining and good ole blacksmithing to make the wheels (or in this case ....tracks) go around.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Walsheng on May 03, 2017, 01:03:14 PM
I took a bunch of pictures of the Gothic beam engine at the Henry Ford Museum (built around 1850) and the linkages all had the wedges holding them together. One picture shows a square headed "set screw" holding the wedge in although most of the links had the set screw missing.  In talking to the museum curator he said there were a lot of mistakes when putting the engine back together, enough so it could probably never run again.

John
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 03, 2017, 01:14:43 PM
Here is a picture of the same kind of link I took at the Hamilton steam museum of their big beam engine, has the set screw in the side on the wedge.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5dhf37w7b/DSC_7635.jpg)
and a picture of the real ones from the Lombard, same set screw arrangements
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dk9eusm9z/CAM00710.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: ShopShoe on May 03, 2017, 01:44:21 PM
FYI and speculation:

"The main reason, I think, for the wedges is to allow for tightening a split bearing as it wears."

I think that's right. For what that probably evolved into, a wedge adjustment on a later-era locomotive is described in detail here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f35NxqwJMPk

Old hat, I'm sure, for many here, but a very good description plus a series of full-size machining videos to make replacement parts.

ShopShoe

PS: I didn't search it out, but I think Jay Leno owns a stationary steam engine that has the same wedges.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 03, 2017, 02:14:57 PM
That's a great video! Clever how they went to the internal wedge and adjusting bolt.


 :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 03, 2017, 07:43:23 PM
On to the next couple parts, the valve slider and rod (latest part count has now passed 2400 parts). The slider started out as another length of the bronze rod, squared up in the collet block like the last couple parts were. Works out very well, just have to trim the diameter down a few thou on the bearing bronze stock since it comes oversize.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5p827grev/IMG_0113.jpg)
Then milled the cavities in the bottom, 0.060 deep, started with a pass in the center, kept nibbling/measuring till the opening was to plan.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/u705vctzb/IMG_0114.jpg)
Turned the collet block over, and made the top side slots for the adjusting nut and the valve rod.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6u24cudvr/IMG_0115.jpg)
Then cut the two sliders loose from the longer bar, and angle cut the top corners.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dyjxlvl53/IMG_0116.jpg)
A quick test fit in the steam chest:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rti84cfk7/IMG_0117.jpg)
Made up the adjusting nuts, simple rectangles with a tapped hole for the valve rod...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tml4so0qv/IMG_0118.jpg)
and the parts are ready for the packing gland nut, to be made next
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5wvp3z2dj/IMG_0119.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/lwecniyfb/IMG_0120.jpg)
After the gland is made, then will be on to the connection to the swing arm...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/jt3xfuymf/IMG_0121.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 04, 2017, 06:00:05 PM
All right! The last (hopefully, unless any need some rework) parts on the engine itself. I made up the valve rods (just a bit of rod with 2-56 threads at each end), and also the valve packing gland nuts.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4atwytq6f/IMG_0123.jpg)
Tightened down in place:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/p6g7a2mdj/IMG_0122.jpg)
The last parts were the fitting that connect the end of the valve rod to the crank arms, as usual made them up in a longer bar to make holding easier. Cross holes for the bolt first.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4ov8yfa9z/IMG_0124.jpg)
Then the holes in the ends for the valve rod. Both were drilled/tapped then the parts cut off the bar.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/d8emw6imf/IMG_0125.jpg)
The long end going to the valve rod was turned round in the lathe.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/66gp9zf0n/IMG_0126.jpg)
Then the section around the cross bolt was rounded off on the belt sander.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/b6e5hxknb/IMG_0128.jpg)
With these parts done, I did a visual timing of the valves for forward and reverse, and locked down the eccentrics and put on the steam chest lids, just nut in each corner for now since they will probably go on/off a few times during testing.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/j0er3bsg7/IMG_0130.jpg)
At this point, the engine is almost ready to test on air! All I need to do is make the elbow fittings that go onto the steam chest inlet ports and run them to the compressor with some plastic tubing. The fine tuning work to get it running well can take an hour or couple days, never can tell.. Stay tuned!!

Edit:
And I have some ideas on a way to support the tracks for static display running - short fixtures like jack stands that have arms that slip into the box beams on the lower edge of the track frames to hold the tracks themselves just off the ground. I had though about a treadmill-like setup, but thats a bit much, take too long to make right now, maybe later. To start, I'll just remove the drive chains to get the engine working and run in, then add them back on.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Marinus on May 04, 2017, 06:46:48 PM
I've been following this thread from the beginning, and I must say, you are a fast worker! You've done an excellent job on this project so far.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 04, 2017, 07:10:46 PM
Thanks Marinus! I've been having a lot of fun with this one
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: kvom on May 04, 2017, 08:47:30 PM
So no binding in the valve rods due to the arc of the links?
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 04, 2017, 09:22:59 PM
So no binding in the valve rods due to the arc of the links?
None. I used an o ring for a seal, and the holes in the gland are a few thou over the diameter of the rod, so the rod can pivot on the o ring. Also, the slot in the valve slider for the adjustment nut allows the nut to rise and fall the couple thou as it moves. No apparent binding.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Farmboy on May 05, 2017, 12:09:41 AM
I haven't commented before because this is so far above my skill level I really can't contribute anything meaningful, but I have been avidly following your rapid progress daily. I would just like to thank you for one of the very best master classes in fabrication and machining I have ever seen  :praise2: It is easy to forget how small some of those parts are until they are shown in your hand or beside a rule.

Can't wait to see it running  :cartwheel:

Mike.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 05, 2017, 12:24:19 AM
Chris, the engine sure adds a lot to the already numerous  focal points of this project. Still following along and loving each new update.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 05, 2017, 02:31:26 AM
Thanks very much guys, glad you are enjoying it, I have been having a great time on this one!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on May 05, 2017, 05:15:39 AM
This is getting exciting!  :cartwheel:

Making a miniature hydraulic jack to jack the Lombard up to get it resting on the jack stands will be a fair little project in itself.  :naughty:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 05, 2017, 12:02:42 PM
This is getting exciting!  :cartwheel:

Making a miniature hydraulic jack to jack the Lombard up to get it resting on the jack stands will be a fair little project in itself.  :naughty:

Jim
That would be great! When can you have a couple of them ready for me?   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on May 05, 2017, 03:03:55 PM
This is getting exciting!  :cartwheel:

Making a miniature hydraulic jack to jack the Lombard up to get it resting on the jack stands will be a fair little project in itself.  :naughty:

Jim
That would be great! When can you have a couple of them ready for me?   :Lol:

That would be a neat little project. I bet it's been done before.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Dan Rowe on May 05, 2017, 03:29:23 PM
I made a set of scale screw jacks using Lima prints. I can post the drawing if you want some for this build or your Shay.

Shay conrods were made with wedges also.

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 05, 2017, 03:32:32 PM
I made a set of scale screw jacks using Lima prints. I can post the drawing if you want some for this build or your Shay.

Shay conrods were made with wedges also.

Cheers Dan
I would love to see the drawings of the jacks! 

Oh - and where did you get the Lima prints? Are they factory drawings?
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Dan Rowe on May 05, 2017, 04:00:17 PM
Here is the set of 3 sizes. I made the large version using 10-32 SS Allen head cap screws for the screw section.

(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/6/213-050517075335.jpeg)

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 05, 2017, 04:01:29 PM
Before making just a temporary air fitting set for connecting up the engine to air, figured I might as well make up some of the real parts for connecting to the steam pipe from the boiler and use those. This morning I got the parts figured out in 3D, here is a rendering. The joints are nut-and-ferrule type, M4 thread into the steam chest, others are M6 thread.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ns66vstl3/Elbow_Pipe_Fittings_v4.jpg)
For the air connection, I will hose-clamp a plastic hose onto the pipe end, with a T to connect up both cylinder inlets...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Dan Rowe on May 05, 2017, 04:12:54 PM
Yes that was drawn from Lima print 15000. The drawings are at the Allen County Historical Society Lima OH and at the California State Railroad Museum at Sacremento CA.

If you are interested in working from Lima drawings I can help locate the drawings needed. I have collected a lot of information about Shay drawings and where they are. Pick any Shay and send me a PM. (Most of my drawing collection is for small Class A Shays.)

Cheers Dan

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Dan Rowe on May 05, 2017, 08:55:19 PM
Chris,
Kozo's first Shay was built from the special set of prints made for the Worlds Columbian Exposition of 1893. This is a nearly complete set of original Shay locomotive drawings that were published in Dan Ranger's book "The Pacific Coast Shay". The shop number is S/N 450 and it was on display at the expo.

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 05, 2017, 10:45:23 PM
I got the air lines hooked up to the compressor today, unhooked the drive chains to keep it from leaping out the window, and did some timing experiments after tightening down steam chest cover bolts/etc. It is really close to running, will go most of the way around, but I have concluded that the valve sliders need to be a bit wider. When I designed them up in the 3D package, I spent a lot of time scaling down the dimensions of the real machine's ports, and when I went to do the slider I just copied things from that same sketch, forgetting to add in some lap to the valve slider. Whoops! So, the ends of the valve are right at the hairy edge of the port openings, and with the little bit of slack adding up in the joints through the Stephenson gear as well as the swing arm linkage, it makes it inconsistant on the exact point where the valve opens/closes. I went back through my other plans, and also the Kozo books, and that the Kozo Shay has dimensions on the valve port/slider/throw that is very simaler to this one, so I am going to add in the lap like he did, and remake the two parts.

Good news is that everything else seems to move well, no big leaks, and it was trying to self start. Getting close! Maybe get it going this weekend, have some other family stuff going on, and we have a RC sub run on Sunday, all taking up time.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 06, 2017, 12:36:37 AM
That sounds very promising Chris, will look forward to seeing things go round and round as time permits. Meanwhile enjoy the family and the sub run!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 06, 2017, 12:54:55 AM

That sounds very promising Chris, will look forward to seeing things go round and round as time permits. Meanwhile enjoy the family and the sub run!!

Bill
Thanks Bill.


Hmmm, let's see if we can get this song stuck in Zee's head:
  "The tracks on the Lombard go round and round, ... "


 :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 07, 2017, 12:30:12 AM
Got some time in the shop this morning, and started making the second set of valve sliders, this time with some lap added, went from .315" total width to .358" with the same .200" wide exhaust cavity on the bottom. Then this evening got some more time in, finished up the valves, and reassembled and visually retimed everything. After some swarfing around tightening up bolts and fixing a leak in the temporary air line, gave it some air, and IT MOVED!
It turns over but you can tell by the sound that the timing of the eccentrics is off. Turned out to be the right side cylinder that was about 5 degrees off, plus the throw on the valve was off one turn of the adjuster. Here was the first attempt, sounds like it was on a pogo stick:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RycOV8afmuA

After adjusting the right engine eccentric and valve throw, it is now running much better than the first attempt.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoP-AqZ3KA8
 :whoohoo:     :pinkelephant:     :cartwheel:     :cheers:     :DrinkPint:    :D

It ran fine on only 15 psi, self started at around 12 or so (at least according to the dial on the compressor regulator), then I went up to 30 and ran fast till it threw the left crankpin, which was not loctited in yet! Right at the end of the video, as the engine stopped, you can hear the crank pin bouncing on the floor!
It was not locked down securely since I was taking the con rods on and off to isolate the motion of each side to fine tune the timing, and was not expecting it to run that well yet! With one rod off, I would give it just a few psi and turned it over by hand to feel where the pressure came/went, and adjust the eccentrics from that.

After replacing the crank pin, it still runs the same, so no damage done. I still need to fine tune the reverse direction eccentric positions, also want to mark their positions and lock down the set screws.

Other great news is the rod seals hold just fine, the steam chest nuts needed some tightening, as did a couple of the end cap nuts. The biggest leak I had to chase was in the air line, replaced the screw down hose clamp with some twisted wire and that went away.

So, I am stopping there for the night, no sense in ruining a big grin by finding something wrong!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Nick_G on May 07, 2017, 12:52:35 AM
.
That's a fine result and a milestone in the build.  :)

Nick
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on May 07, 2017, 12:59:13 AM
Great stuff, Chris. Be proud! I know the feeling you have today. What a lovely build.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: steam guy willy on May 07, 2017, 01:03:59 AM
Wow, thats great, so what is the scale speed ?!! its always a thrill to get an engine running,  Looking forward to the steam test now !!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on May 07, 2017, 01:42:03 AM
It's alive!!!    :cartwheel: :whoohoo: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :praise2:

 :cheers:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 07, 2017, 01:42:36 AM
Thanks guys! Looking forward to trying it with the drive chains and tracks going, have some ideas on a way to raise the tracks off the table.


Willy, the real machine ran about 5 mph or so when pulling a train of log sleds. Gearing is about 5 to 1.


The boiler is probably the next subsystem to make, after the trip up to Maine to see the real one go.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on May 07, 2017, 02:04:58 AM
Congratulations on the first run!  That is always exciting!  :cartwheel:  :ThumbsUp:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: vcutajar on May 07, 2017, 02:07:37 AM
Wow Chris, that's a great milestone you have achieved and I can well imagine the satisfied grin. Can't wait to see the tracks move also.

Vince
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 07, 2017, 02:23:42 AM
Late to the party as usual but that is FANTASTIC Chris!!!  You have to be happy with that result!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on May 07, 2017, 02:31:24 AM
Well done Chris...we all knew you would get there!

Just been cleaning up my metal storage.....nice piece of copper tube........no no NO must stay on track.....

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 07, 2017, 03:16:08 AM
Late to the party as usual but that is FANTASTIC Chris!!!  You have to be happy with that result!!

Bill
Very!

About 8 months so far, few more to go...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 07, 2017, 03:17:48 AM
Well done Chris...we all knew you would get there!

Just been cleaning up my metal storage.....nice piece of copper tube........no no NO must stay on track.....

Cheers Kerrin


Tube? Track? Sounds like you are starting a Lombard!!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on May 07, 2017, 03:27:30 AM
Congratulations Chris.............that's a heck of a milestone! It's really been enjoyable to see this project go from concept......... to where you are at today. I bet you're getting anxious to get to Maine to get up close and personal with the full size version.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Larry on May 07, 2017, 04:11:46 AM
Been following since Day 1. Congratulations ! First run is a great feeling.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Jo on May 07, 2017, 08:05:57 AM
 8) Well done,

Jo
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: elciego on May 07, 2017, 10:51:47 AM
Been quietly following since the start.  Very well done.  :ThumbsUp:  :praise2:

 :cheers:
Abraham
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: MJM460 on May 07, 2017, 12:25:55 PM
A great milestone in a great build.  Well done Chris.

Milestone?  How do I metricate that now?

Now looking forward to seeing some boiler making!  At least fewer identical parts.

MJM460
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 07, 2017, 03:02:51 PM
A great milestone in a great build.  Well done Chris.

Milestone?  How do I metricate that now?

Now looking forward to seeing some boiler making!  At least fewer identical parts.

MJM460
Metric milestone, hmmm, KilometerMarkerpostSignThingy jst doesn't have the same ring to it! For a small scale model, how about MicronPebble?


Anyway, a great feeling to get to this point and have it run well! I am going to whip up a needle valve for the air line, and see how slow it will run, the regulator on the compressor is way too coarse an adjustment, and just does pressure, not flow.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on May 07, 2017, 04:26:23 PM
Just awesome! Just plain awesome Chris.  Congratulations.

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: fumopuc on May 07, 2017, 05:37:25 PM
Hi Chris, very well done.  It seams that your engine will run with an appropiate low speed for your monster.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 07, 2017, 08:27:03 PM
Thanks guys!

This afternoon I got some time to make up a needle valve to connect into the tubing on the air supply to the engine. From past projects like the twin-beam engine, I found that putting a needle valve close to the engine to control flow and leaving the compressor regulator (which is not good at fine adjustments) turned up that I could get much slower speeds on the engine.

For the Lombard, it definitely got the speed range down, which showed that the timing still needs some tweaking (or there is a sticky spot somewhere, or both). I have other stuff happening tonight, so will have time tomorrow to fine tune the timing and get some more videos of it running up. Then I will set up some riser blocks with bars over to the track frames to raise the tracks off the table so I can connect the drive chains up for a test - that is the really big milestone, if the engine will turn the tracks smoothly.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on May 07, 2017, 08:43:30 PM
I have built 12 steam engines of varying configurations, and on all of them I found they respond "better" with high pressure but regulated flow, just as you are doing. Particularly if there is any load on them.----Brian
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 07, 2017, 08:49:30 PM
I have built 12 steam engines of varying configurations, and on all of them I found they respond "better" with high pressure but regulated flow, just as you are doing. Particularly if there is any load on them.----Brian

On the twin beam engine, it would get the speed down to a revolution every couple of seconds, the flywheel was irrelevant at those speeds. For the Lombard, or any engine on steam rather than air, seems like it is more like the real thing, where the boiler is producing a high pressure steam, and the valve is just letting it flow at varying rates.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on May 07, 2017, 11:01:53 PM
Locomotives and engines with adjustable cut-off systems like the Stephenson seem to run best with the throttle wide open and the speed controlled by notching up the cut-off. I learned that just a few years ago after spending most of my life thinking it was the throttle controlling the speed!!!   :facepalm:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 07, 2017, 11:15:43 PM
Locomotives and engines with adjustable cut-off systems like the Stephenson seem to run best with the throttle wide open and the speed controlled by notching up the cut-off. I learned that just a few years ago after spending most of my life thinking it was the throttle controlling the speed!!!   :facepalm:

Pete
Interesting!  Have to try that combination once I get it dialed in, thanks!


I was doing a little playing before the sub run, and found out why I was going back and forth on the adjustment of the valve throws. The swing arms that transfer the linkages up to the top of the cylinders are slipping on the shaft!   :cussing:


So, took them out, reloctited them, and think they will get some pins for good measure!


Good part is, the needle valve is working perfectly, letting me dribble in the air to test and run very slow.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: kvom on May 08, 2017, 12:22:25 AM
Notching up works better on steam than air as it relies on steam's expansion rather than boiler pressure.  For steam engines it results in less steam used and hence less fuel.  The model steamers I see at our club may notch up (esp. if their locos have superheaters), but the throttle is definitely the primary speed control.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on May 08, 2017, 01:07:50 AM
Well that's right. Scale has to enter into that equation somewhere and I know that thermodynamics doesn't scale along with the mass of the engines we work with. But I do know that on 7 1/2" ga. notching up is effective. I don't know if the Lombard model will see much effect but I just can't wait for Chris to try it!!!!

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 08, 2017, 01:54:20 AM
Late to the party.

Awesome Chris!  :ThumbsUp: And many congratulations.

That had to feel really good.

P.S. Nope. The song didn't stick. But blast you...it triggered a different song.  ;D
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 08, 2017, 02:05:34 AM
Late to the party.

Awesome Chris!  :ThumbsUp: And many congratulations.

That had to feel really good.

P.S. Nope. The song didn't stick. But blast you...it triggered a different song.  ;D

 :ROFL:    :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 08, 2017, 02:06:02 AM
Well that's right. Scale has to enter into that equation somewhere and I know that thermodynamics doesn't scale along with the mass of the engines we work with. But I do know that on 7 1/2" ga. notching up is effective. I don't know if the Lombard model will see much effect but I just can't wait for Chris to try it!!!!

Pete

Aw, gee, I have to play with the engine more? Shucks!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: paul gough on May 08, 2017, 04:13:58 AM
Pete is more or less right, certainly for main line locos and where there is a clear run, as with other constant high output arrangements such as ships etc. It also helps to understand locomotive type operation that the limiting factor to a locos out put is nearly always the boiler and with hand fired locos the grate area and the corollary,  the firemans capacity to feed in the fuel. Modern mainline locos are designed to run with throttle wide open which has the prime purpose of maintaining boiler pressure in the steam chest, thus highest out put possible for the engine, but that condition has to be maintained, so having a adequate boiler, associated supply and exhaust pipework and cylinder porting is critical, enormous efforts were put in by designers to achieve the best compromises. Notching/linking up, or reducing the cut-off/valve travel reduces steam demand on the boiler, (and very much on the fireman), and expansively utilises the heat in the steam so operating more economically fuel and water wise. At large throttle openings and as the engine increases speed there is the important fact of allowing the engine to breathe freely, this is achieved by ample inlet and exhaust port/pipe design, but also by the operator adjusting the cutoff to a point of balance between efficiency and smooth engine output, this is achieved on modern locos by making small adjustments to the throttle and cut off, while noting back pressure and steam chest pressure on the gauges or by feel and sound with locos not so fitted. Back pressure is something of a double edged sword, it is the determinant of draught but also the enemy of high output from the engine so must be balanced in design and by operators having enough skill or finesse to get the most out of their engines. In all it is more complicated than this but these are the general principals, one needs to read much to grasp it all. The situation is generally not so critical with models as they are usually not put to the test that mainliners or full sized equipment is, however good design should prevail and operators would do well to try to get to know their equipment with some degree of understanding and sensitivity, too many just light a fire and open the throttle and miss the wonderful sense of connectedness between design and operation felt by those who are aware and respond to the 'talk that comes from the stack'. Chris I hope you took on board the 'design brief' that the engineers had to grapple with on this locomotive when miniaturising it and put it through some tests. A steam chest pressure gauge and a back pressure gauge fitted to the blast pipe will give you invaluable feed back and are easily removed with the holes plugged if so desired.  I am mightily impressed by your output and achievement in building this model and look forward to reading of some extensive testing and performance review. Apologies for long windedness to those who already know. Regards Paul Gough.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on May 08, 2017, 08:24:43 AM
Excellent, Paul!! Excellent.

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 08, 2017, 03:02:37 PM
Great information Paul! Doubt I can do the full parameterized study that we would have back in our research labs at work, but some experiments during running will be fun and informative. Running our gauge 1 locos, over time we get the feel of the right settings and can tell when it is not happy.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on May 08, 2017, 04:22:53 PM
All right, all right your the man. That's awesome Dog love the motions and as usual impressive Chris. Damn I need to hire me some of those Elfs and get some of your cookies..... :lolb:


 :drinking-41:

Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 08, 2017, 05:52:52 PM
All right, all right your the man. That's awesome Dog love the motions and as usual impressive Chris. Damn I need to hire me some of those Elfs and get some of your cookies..... :lolb:


 :drinking-41:

Don
The elves get a little noisy in the late night parties, but worth it by the work they do!   :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 08, 2017, 06:06:52 PM
I got the swing arms between the stephenson links and the valve rods pinned and loctited together, and the valves retimed again - seem to be holding much steadier now. Also made the needle valve for the air intake, and that is working beautifully, lets me control the flow from a trickle to full bore while leaving the air compressor set to one pressure (testing at about 50 psi, it runs the engine down to about 10). Below is a video of it running, both directions, and running the flow up and down. There is still one sticky spot it hits at slow speed, have to track that one down, or it may just need some more run in time. I did a couple adjustments on the centering of the piston travel, which helped that issue a lot, might need one more tweak but am out of time for the afternoon.
Also, I did a little experimenting with the stephenson link position vs throttle position, and as Paul talked about the throttle valve was much more effective on the small scale model - also may be a case of things not being engineered for total efficiency as he says, I don't know enough to optimize port/passage/etc sizes and such.  Since running this engine will be easier to tweak throttle position, I'll stick with that method for now.

Anyway, here is the video!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieTnkDvC9Kk

Next up will be to make some stands for the track frames so I can hook up the drive chains, and hopefully have the tracks move under power for the first time!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on May 08, 2017, 06:53:02 PM
It's getting there, Chris! Remember, air does not have the thermal expansion qualities steam does. So changing the 'cut-off' won't have much effect compared to steam.

Removing all slack and tight spots should be done before sweating the timing too much. Very important for slow (normal) speed running.

Truly great work you're doing!!

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on May 08, 2017, 08:37:34 PM
Hi Chris,
 Woo she runs pretty good! Thinking back on the video links of its full size cousin the action of the engine looks pretty much the same, maybe they had a couple of tight spots too.

Oh did I hear clapping & whoops of joy in the background? I have a feeling your little helpers have a plan!
 :lolb:

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: steam guy willy on May 08, 2017, 10:46:40 PM
Hi Chris, When i looked at the video on Utube the next vid that came up after was people singing   Sacred Harp    I sing this over here with a small   group in Norwich. !! so are you into this as well or is it just a random thing that came up ?? !!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 08, 2017, 11:05:32 PM
Hi Chris, When i looked at the video on Utube the next vid that came up after was people singing   Sacred Harp    I sing this over here with a small   group in Norwich. !! so are you into this as well or is it just a random thing that came up ?? !!

Nope, that is youtube picking the next one, I don't have any control on that! Maybe they knew you liked it and picked it!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 08, 2017, 11:06:15 PM
Hi Chris,
 Woo she runs pretty good! Thinking back on the video links of its full size cousin the action of the engine looks pretty much the same, maybe they had a couple of tight spots too.

Oh did I hear clapping & whoops of joy in the background? I have a feeling your little helpers have a plan!
 :lolb:

Cheers Kerrin

Hmmm, maybe they are planning on hijacking it and driving away!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 09, 2017, 12:32:29 AM
It's getting there, Chris! Remember, air does not have the thermal expansion qualities steam does. So changing the 'cut-off' won't have much effect compared to steam.

Removing all slack and tight spots should be done before sweating the timing too much. Very important for slow (normal) speed running.

Truly great work you're doing!!

Pete
Thanks Pete! Its running pretty good right now, just that one spot where it stutters, this one actually was pretty easy to get going once I figured out that the swing arms had been slipping. MUCH easier to time than the Corliss engine was. Still probably needs some fine adjustments, but it is within a degree or so of the proper spots on the eccentrics, and the new valve sliders seem to be a good width, just enough to close fully before turning around the piston, but not so long that the open time is too long at full throw of the reverse gear.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on May 09, 2017, 03:22:30 AM
I don't know all that much about this stuff, but I can't help but think that when you load these engines down (even just turning the tracks up in the air) that it will really settle down and smooth out. This is fun to watch.  :popcorn:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 09, 2017, 03:51:40 AM
I don't know all that much about this stuff, but I can't help but think that when you load these engines down (even just turning the tracks up in the air) that it will really settle down and smooth out. This is fun to watch.  :popcorn:

Jim
I'm really wondering too, the whole track mechanism does add a lot of resistance, so I am not sure how different it will run. On the gauge 1 locos, with loco only its often tough to slow them down, but adding some wieghted cars they settle down nicely. Guess I'll find out soon, assuming that there is no hangup in the drive chain or track.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: MJM460 on May 09, 2017, 09:52:39 AM
Harking back to Pete's post, no1390, which mentions the difference between expansion of steam and air.  I know all of us "younger guys" have been told this by the old hands for so long that it  could have been started by Stevenson himself.  But it does not seem to be supported by the thermodynamics.

If constant pressure is applied for the whole stroke, then the work done is found by the formula
Work = Pressure times change of volume.   Note that this is quite independent of the type of fluid, it involves only volume and pressure.

When we notch back the valve gear, so that the valve closes before the end of the stroke, there is some of that oft quoted "expansive work".  For an ideal adiabatic engine, the formula is a bit more complex, but the important point is that it includes a factor, usually written as k, which is the ratio of specific heats, and is different for steam and air, in addition to pressure and volume terms.

If we assume that after the valve closes we expand the fluid to twice the volume so the pressure is reduced to half its value at the point of valve closure, then yes, a volume of steam gives more work than the same volume of air.  But only by less than 2%!  Hardly earth shattering. 

I know there are many practical issues which also affect the performance of an engine, and if those who have experience driving the same engine with both steam and air have noticed the difference, then I cannot argue with their observations.  But then I also can't help wondering what are the real reasons for the difference as I don't believe it is the thermodynamics.  I would be interested to know what I am missing.

MJM460
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: jschoenly on May 09, 2017, 12:48:13 PM
Man, I missed a lot since I last saw this post!  The pictures really did exaggerate the heights as it looks different in the newest pics and videos.  AWESOME WORK!!  This is going to be (well, already is!) a fantastic model!  Keep it up!  :)

Thanks guys! Very kind.

Jared - the centerline of the crankshaft is only a little above the centerline of the piston, and it shows that way in the drawings and photos of the original too. I think they had to raise it slightly to get clearance for the differential  case above the ground, and the engine had to be low enough so the reversing gear links would clear under the boiler. The photos of the model were taken at an angle that make it look like a much bigger height difference, but it is raised less than half the thickness of the shaft. Its possible that I have it a little too high, given that I am interpolating a lot of the measurements from their photos. I'll find out for sure when I see it in person next month, going to be taking LOTS of photos, measurements, drawings while I am there. Naturally it would have been nice to go there before starting, but that was too late in the season for me last fall.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: steam guy willy on May 09, 2017, 01:01:28 PM
I am always confused by the word  Expansion !! It was explained in one of my books that if you fill a vessel with a movable piston with steam at a particular pressure then the piston will move. the analogy being that if the piston rod was connected to a rubber band then this would contract and pull the piston out. So ,if the elastic band contracts the "stuff" on the other end must expand !?!? or is that even more confusing,  These engineers had to explain what was happening to people so just came up with multi syllable words that could be used by mere mortals to repeat parrot fashion and get full marks in their exams !!  hence   Adiabatic ,Enthalpy, Abracadabracar  etc etc I will be at the Doncaster show on Saturday if other people are going ......nice work going on there with the model...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 09, 2017, 02:40:40 PM
Harking back to Pete's post, no1390, which mentions the difference between expansion of steam and air.  I know all of us "younger guys" have been told this by the old hands for so long that it  could have been started by Stevenson himself.  But it does not seem to be supported by the thermodynamics.

If constant pressure is applied for the whole stroke, then the work done is found by the formula
Work = Pressure times change of volume.   Note that this is quite independent of the type of fluid, it involves only volume and pressure.

When we notch back the valve gear, so that the valve closes before the end of the stroke, there is some of that oft quoted "expansive work".  For an ideal adiabatic engine, the formula is a bit more complex, but the important point is that it includes a factor, usually written as k, which is the ratio of specific heats, and is different for steam and air, in addition to pressure and volume terms.

If we assume that after the valve closes we expand the fluid to twice the volume so the pressure is reduced to half its value at the point of valve closure, then yes, a volume of steam gives more work than the same volume of air.  But only by less than 2%!  Hardly earth shattering. 

I know there are many practical issues which also affect the performance of an engine, and if those who have experience driving the same engine with both steam and air have noticed the difference, then I cannot argue with their observations.  But then I also can't help wondering what are the real reasons for the difference as I don't believe it is the thermodynamics.  I would be interested to know what I am missing.

MJM460
I think the missing bit is that the steam expands more than the 2x you are figuring with. Also, a big thing with running a large engine is getting the power you need with minimum of steam, since fuel is money. The Corliss engine was  major savings since it used 30 percent less steam for same work provided.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 09, 2017, 02:42:38 PM
Man, I missed a lot since I last saw this post!  The pictures really did exaggerate the heights as it looks different in the newest pics and videos.  AWESOME WORK!!  This is going to be (well, already is!) a fantastic model!  Keep it up!  :)

Thanks guys! Very kind.

Jared - the centerline of the crankshaft is only a little above the centerline of the piston, and it shows that way in the drawings and photos of the original too. I think they had to raise it slightly to get clearance for the differential  case above the ground, and the engine had to be low enough so the reversing gear links would clear under the boiler. The photos of the model were taken at an angle that make it look like a much bigger height difference, but it is raised less than half the thickness of the shaft. Its possible that I have it a little too high, given that I am interpolating a lot of the measurements from their photos. I'll find out for sure when I see it in person next month, going to be taking LOTS of photos, measurements, drawings while I am there. Naturally it would have been nice to go there before starting, but that was too late in the season for me last fall.
Thanks Jared!  This morning I am getting the track riser built, hope to try it on air with tracks later today...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 09, 2017, 10:03:58 PM
Well, the riser is made and appears to be functional, but when I hand-turned the crankshaft over I found two links in the left side drive chain that are binding up, apparently are just a bit short, have to fix those before I can test-run...  :shrug:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 09, 2017, 11:07:46 PM
Well bugger....I was hoping to see video  :LittleDevil:

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 10, 2017, 12:36:19 AM
Well bugger....I was hoping to see video  :LittleDevil:

Bill
So was I!!!

And, one is uploading now. Not perfect, but running...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 10, 2017, 12:48:41 AM
All right, the track stand went together this morning, basically it is a plywood base with a riser on either side that have a pair of metal bars which slide into the openings in the box beam just above the bottom of the track frame. The risers are slotted so the bars can slide in, and have bolts to tighten them down. There is also a velcro strap at the front of the frame to keep the frame from pulling a wheely (tracky?) if a track jams. The risers are tall enough to hold the track plates above the base, to let them spin freely.

So, I got the left drive chain fixed (replaced two links that were a touch too short), and got it running on compressed air with the tracks going. Not great, it does have one spot on the differential that sticks, stopping the engine. The bearing blocks on the half shaft need a little adjustment, the center ones are just too far out, letting the bevel gear teeth ride out and jump the ring gear.

Anyway, here is a brief run:
[youtube1]https://youtu.be/7yGIl56ITSU[/youtube1]

As you can see in the video, the differential is doing its job, with no load on the tracks they are running at different speeds, which allows the bevel gears jump teeth, causing the stop. Once the bearing blocks are re-adjusted, it should stop that problem. It would be nice to have the tracks running together, I think that would take a different setup, with a common roller or belt underneath to act more like a ground surface. The clacking you hear is the track plates touching the base plate as they sag down in the center.

Not a perfect run, but it does prove that it can run!!   :cartwheel:   Oh, and that the engine has plenty of power to run the tracks at a reasonable speed. Need to get the diff issue solved, and sort out any other sticky spots in the drive train.

Time for some cookies!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on May 10, 2017, 01:15:21 AM
Well just pour some fine sand in there and turn the air up to 60!!! That'll fix 'er....

 :lolb: :lolb: :lolb:

Gettin' closer!!

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 10, 2017, 01:17:35 AM
Worth the wait Chris, I am a bit surprised though that the speed reduction between the engine and the tracks is not more. Pretty amazing though with all those working parts!!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 10, 2017, 01:23:53 AM
Well just pour some fine sand in there and turn the air up to 60!!! That'll fix 'er....

 :lolb: :lolb: :lolb:

Gettin' closer!!

Pete


Note to self: Don't let Pete near model unsupervised!   :Lol:


Actually, its the opposite on the diff, the bearing block needs to be closer to hold the teeth in mesh, they are riding up and going tip on tip, jamming it.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 10, 2017, 01:27:15 AM
Worth the wait Chris, I am a bit surprised though that the speed reduction between the engine and the tracks is not more. Pretty amazing though with all those working parts!!!

Bill
Steam has such high low speed torque, guess they didn't need much. Normal locomotives have no reduction at all, Shays were around 2:1, these are about 5:1.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Dan Rowe on May 10, 2017, 02:05:33 AM
Chris,
Shays have a gear ratio from 2:1 to 3:1. The big Shays are 2:1 and the small ones are the ones with the 3:1 ratio.

Dan
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 10, 2017, 02:16:47 AM
Chris,
Shays have a gear ratio from 2:1 to 3:1. The big Shays are 2:1 and the small ones are the ones with the 3:1 ratio.

Dan
Interesting. I would have guessed the opposite, but I guess it makes sense that the smaller ones needed more torque.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on May 10, 2017, 11:23:15 AM
Excellent result I would say. With all of the moving parts in that model, workmanship must be quite high for it to work at all. Well Done.

Tom
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 10, 2017, 11:42:02 AM
In watching it run, it is apparent that the differential is allowing the two tracks to speed up/slow down/stop/start on their own, since they are just free wheeling, and any little friction spot (and there are tons of them, with all the track joints) changes which one needs more power. So, thinking of adding a pair of small rubber tires on a solid axle, maybe spring loaded to hold them to the tracks, to give them both a constant speed more like they would when running on the ground?

Still need to fix the bearing spacing on the diff to keep the gears properly meshed too...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: MJM460 on May 10, 2017, 12:07:27 PM
Sorry to always be a few posts behind, it's a timezone thing, a benefit of having a world wide forum.  It is evening here, my normal forum reading time, so here goes.

Steam guy, I would have been confused by the rubber band analogy too.  What it adds to the description, I can't imagine.  May I try for a more useful description?  If a gas is under pressure in a cylinder which is closed, but one end is movable, i.e. a piston, and the pressure is sufficient to overcome the resistance of the piston, then the piston moves, the closed volume becomes larger, and the gas expands to fill this larger space, exerting an ever reducing pressure on the piston.  The work done by the piston during this expansion is referred to as expansive work.  The gas does not have to be steam.  Air, CO2, hydrogen or any other gas will do.  I am sorry about adiabatic, it would have been close enough to say without heat gain or loss, but adiabatic is more technically accurate for the calculation.  It refers to an idealised process which can be calculated rather than a real process which cannot be so readily calculated, and against which efficiency is often calculated.  Obviously steam is hot and loses heat, while not so obviously, air will be cold, and so will gain heat, this being the first departure from the calculation model.  I hope that is better than the rubber band.

Chris, the difference between steam volume at boiler pressure and at atmospheric pressure is much greater than 2 : 1, however the expansion relates only to the change in volume within the closed cylinder from when the inlet valve closes until the exhaust valve opens.  Once the exhaust valve opens, the steam expands through the exhaust, the pressure drops rapidly and the remaining energy is mostly wasted as far as driving the engine is concerned.  It takes a very large cylinder to achieve much expansion.  The difference in work done between air and steam varies with the pressure ratio, but in reality only very little.

The corless valve gear much more closely approaches the ideal timing for early steam cut off, later followed by quick opening of the exhaust valve near end of stroke than does the stevensons gear, so achieves a greater proportion of the work during expansion, which gives it the good efficiency.  The Stevensons gear is less accurate in this respect.  Even though it is often described in terms of early cut off for steam supply, the exhaust opening is not often described.

I hope this is not all too far off topic.  If there is any interest and the above makes sense, I could start a separate thread.  Perhaps most would consider it chatter?

Great result on the run with the tracks.  Good to see the differential is doing its job really well.

MJM460
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 10, 2017, 12:48:21 PM
Hi MJM, definitely an interesting topic, but as you say would be better off in a new thread, the steam vs air performance in both single and compound engines would be great to learn more about.


Chris
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on May 10, 2017, 02:14:05 PM
Hi MJM, definitely an interesting topic, but as you say would be better off in a new thread, the steam vs air performance in both single and compound engines would be great to learn more about.


Chris

That would be a great topic for discussion.  :ThumbsUp: My first question would be: For a simple single cylinder steam engine, does 15 lbs of steam pressure at the inlet valve give different results than 15 lbs of air pressure?

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 10, 2017, 02:17:56 PM
Hi MJM, definitely an interesting topic, but as you say would be better off in a new thread, the steam vs air performance in both single and compound engines would be great to learn more about.


Chris

That would be a great topic for discussion.  :ThumbsUp: My first question would be: For a simple single cylinder steam engine, does 15 lbs of steam pressure at the inlet valve give different results than 15 lbs of air pressure?

Jim
so much for splitting threads....  :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: RonGinger on May 10, 2017, 02:31:18 PM
Quote
Chris, the difference between steam volume at boiler pressure and at atmospheric pressure is much greater than 2 : 1

Indeed, the value is 1700:1. Thats why a boiler explosion makes such a big mess. If a small crack allows the pressure to drop to atmospheric the resulting forces tear the boiler to rubble. All that energy got into the steam while it heated from water to steam, the heat of vaporization.

I did a quick google search on the term "heat of vaporization" and got quite a lesson, and one reference to a good kahan academy lesson.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on May 10, 2017, 02:49:09 PM
Hi MJM, definitely an interesting topic, but as you say would be better off in a new thread, the steam vs air performance in both single and compound engines would be great to learn more about.


Chris

That would be a great topic for discussion.  :ThumbsUp: My first question would be: For a simple single cylinder steam engine, does 15 lbs of steam pressure at the inlet valve give different results than 15 lbs of air pressure?

Jim
so much for splitting threads....  :ROFL:

I know what your saying Chris.  :lolb: What I should of said is: "That would be a great topic for discussion.  :ThumbsUp: I'm not asking this question here, but if we had a thread for this question, that I'm not asking here, I would ask does 15 lbs of steam pressure at the inlet valve give different results than 15 lbs of air pressure?"  :naughty:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Jo on May 10, 2017, 03:55:21 PM
I know what your saying Chris.  :lolb: What I should of said is: "That would be a great topic for discussion.  :ThumbsUp: I'm not asking this question here, but if we had a thread for this question, that I'm not asking here, I would ask does 15 lbs of steam pressure at the inlet valve give different results than 15 lbs of air pressure?"  :naughty:

If you let the engine run a while then yes it does  ::)

Jo
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 10, 2017, 04:11:25 PM
Hi MJM, definitely an interesting topic, but as you say would be better off in a new thread, the steam vs air performance in both single and compound engines would be great to learn more about.


Chris

That would be a great topic for discussion.  :ThumbsUp: My first question would be: For a simple single cylinder steam engine, does 15 lbs of steam pressure at the inlet valve give different results than 15 lbs of air pressure?

Jim
so much for splitting threads....  :ROFL:

I know what your saying Chris.  :lolb: What I should of said is: "That would be a great topic for discussion.  :ThumbsUp: I'm not asking this question here, but if we had a thread for this question, that I'm not asking here, I would ask does 15 lbs of steam pressure at the inlet valve give different results than 15 lbs of air pressure?"  :naughty:
Uh-oh Jim, sounds like you are ready for a career as a lawyer!  Sorry if that is too offensive!   :LittleDevil:

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 10, 2017, 04:17:04 PM
A friend of mine has a couple of small rc wheels that will be perfect for making an axle to keep both tracks running together for the Maine trip. Longer term, I found a set of robot type racks that will make a great conveyor type table that the Hauler can sit on. I will order those parts after the trip next week.
On the diff, got the bearing adjustment done, much better but I think one of the large bevel gears needs a tooth tweaked, looks a little wide, need to pull it out to check. Or, let Jim pour sand in it!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: paul gough on May 11, 2017, 12:11:13 AM
MJM, I also think a discussion around this topic might have a following, a little theory enhances understanding so feel free to commence a new thread. I think it important to make sure we are comparing apples to apples, a steam engine is a heat engine and functions as such, I'm  not getting your point with a comparison to a pneumatic pressure engine. Steam is a convenient vehicle to carry heat, as water/steam has the ability to absorb and shift considerable quantities from the point of generation to where its wanted to perform work, this is why high pressure and superheating to above 500 C. is utilised. Regards Paul Gough.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 11, 2017, 12:59:14 AM
From the video it looks like it would compete in a drag race.

Wow.

 :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 11, 2017, 01:23:15 AM
From the video it looks like it would compete in a drag race.

Wow.

 :ThumbsUp:
A big part of that is that the far track was running slower, the near track going almost twice speed. Rest is since there is the sticky spot in the diff  I cranked up the speed to keep it going. It will run much slower.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 11, 2017, 02:02:26 AM
Tonight I pulled the differential out, and I now think the gear teeth are fine, there appears to be a misalignment in the bearing blocks somewhere...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 11, 2017, 03:10:37 AM
Yup. The bearing blocks were misaligned a bit, put the bearings on one solid rod, loosened all the bolts holding the block bases to the main plate, held in the rod, and retightened the bolts.


Somewhat better, but still sticking. After a bunch more fiddling, found that the holes in the blocks that hold the bearings seem to be just a little too smal, pinching in the bearings when tightening it all down, causing the sticking even when the center gear is not installed.


So  will tackle that tomorrow morning. As usual, the subtle bugs are the ones with more than one cause. Closing in though, will see if there is another bug hiding behind this one!


Edit: measured block holes and bearing outsides. Bearings are .002 bigger than the holes. Ding! :paranoia:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: MJM460 on May 11, 2017, 12:50:58 PM
It looks like a consensus, a new thread it is.  I have made a post on the Chatterbox board.

I hope it can be made interesting for all.

MJM460
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 11, 2017, 10:12:35 PM
It looks like a consensus, a new thread it is.  I have made a post on the Chatterbox board.

I hope it can be made interesting for all.

MJM460
Looks to be off and running!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 11, 2017, 10:15:03 PM
I got the bearings for the diff turned down a couple thou, it turns very smoothly now. Still need to make up the wheel rig to get both tracks running together consistently, still alternates one and the other. Only had an hour for the shop today, more tomorrow hopefully.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on May 12, 2017, 03:38:57 AM
I got the bearings for the diff turned down a couple thou, it turns very smoothly now. Still need to make up the wheel rig to get both tracks running together consistently, still alternates one and the other. Only had an hour for the shop today, more tomorrow hopefully.

If your Shop Elves have a treadmill, maybe you could use that to run the tracks on.  ;)

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 12, 2017, 03:50:24 AM
I got the bearings for the diff turned down a couple thou, it turns very smoothly now. Still need to make up the wheel rig to get both tracks running together consistently, still alternates one and the other. Only had an hour for the shop today, more tomorrow hopefully.

If your Shop Elves have a treadmill, maybe you could use that to run the tracks on.  ;)

Jim


Yeah, but then they'd steal my credit card again and buy an even more expensive one!


Today was a wash for workshop time, but looks like Friday will be a solid shop day, so can get the Lombard either running well with the tracks for the trip, or I'll just run it for them without the tracks, can turn it over manually with them at least. The weekend will be filled with packing and mother's day fun.  Looks like i will be able to get together with Ron Ginger while I'm in the area, plus lots of fun up and down the coast areas and museums. I have not been to Maine in about 6 years, been way too long and am really looking forward to getting back there again.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on May 12, 2017, 04:32:52 AM
This sounds like a really interesting trip Chris. Are you going to be able to get online and give us reports as it progresses? I can't wait to hear about the reaction of the Lombard folks up there when they see what you've done.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: PeterE on May 12, 2017, 08:47:23 AM
Could two pulleys and a fan belt under each track make up a make-shift "treadmill" track?

/Peter
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 12, 2017, 12:32:38 PM
This sounds like a really interesting trip Chris. Are you going to be able to get online and give us reports as it progresses? I can't wait to hear about the reaction of the Lombard folks up there when they see what you've done.

Jim
I should be able to get online at the hotels, but won't be able to upload pics or videos till I get back home.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 12, 2017, 12:35:57 PM
Could two pulleys and a fan belt under each track make up a make-shift "treadmill" track?

/Peter
I found some rubber covered model tank tread online, have some on order to make up some treadmills. The fan belts could work, but they would have to be thin ones to turn freely and have a softer outside to give grip. I don't have time before the trip to make up that version, will get it done after the trip.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 12, 2017, 03:20:07 PM
One by one knocking down the sticky spots. Found a couple more places on the drive chains that were not rotating back and forth freely enough, and got one side of the tracks running well. The other side kept stopping in one spot, spotted that the drive chain was riding up on the small sprocket on the crankshaft. Turns out that there are three links that are 5 to 7 thou shorter than the others, which one at a time will still go round the sprocket, but three of them in the span of 6 links is just enough to shorten it too much for the next link to engage. Amazes me how precise the chains have to be to run freely. So, will sort those and see how it runs then. Getting very close!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 12, 2017, 04:20:04 PM
Okay, I got that set of links fixed, and things are running MUCH smoother now. Not perfect, but getting a lot better. I don't have the wheel set made to keep them running together, but even without that they are going fairly well, even at slower speeds. Below is the latest video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lA7PkFdm96g

After lunch, will start on the parts for the wheel set and see how that works....
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: vcutajar on May 12, 2017, 04:26:11 PM
Very, very nice Chris.  Should that inner chain at the bottom of the tracks turn also?

Vince
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 12, 2017, 04:31:14 PM
Very, very nice Chris.  Should that inner chain at the bottom of the tracks turn also?

Vince
Hi Vince,

The inner roller chain is like a linear bearing, that sits between the bottom of the track frame and the track plates. Since the tracks are suspended in mid-air at the moment, there is no pressure on that chain so it is not turning. Later on when I get the treadmill-type base made, those should be going around with the track plates.

In later developments of the continuous track systems, the went to the sprung-wheels type of system, where rows of overlapping wheels took the place of these chains. On Lombard's first prototype, he actually used the wheel system, but I think he had trouble with them breaking, and he only had a single row, so they only contacted every other plate. Neat technology.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 12, 2017, 08:54:02 PM
Success! The wheeled shaft is working quite well, keeping the tracks in step like they would be on the ground, rather than one slowing/speeding up all the time (more even than it would in a slolam course). Here is what the temporary shaft setup looks like, held in place with some blocks and wing nuts/bolts.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qhovlafuv/IMG_0177.jpg)
The blocks were pushed forward slightly so the tires press on the tracks for some grip. The tires are air filled, so they have some give to them (these are RC model airplane tires from an old wrecked model a friend of mine had).


And here are a couple of videos of it running as it is now. Still some sticky spots and stuttering, but it is good enough for the demo next week at the museum. Just in time!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqIhlxYuEbM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho0g4qbBKj0
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: vcutajar on May 12, 2017, 08:59:38 PM
That's looking great Chris.  I suspect that the more you run it, the smoother it will get.

Vince
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: tvoght on May 12, 2017, 09:08:19 PM
Pretty darn exciting!

--Tim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: samc88 on May 12, 2017, 09:15:03 PM
Very impressive! Could you not run the tracks on ball bearings? (By which i mean having a couple of bearings under each track, supporting the inner race and having the track running on the outer race? ) That would offer support i imagine as well as allowing things to run smoothly
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 12, 2017, 09:37:30 PM
Very impressive! Could you not run the tracks on ball bearings? (By which i mean having a couple of bearings under each track, supporting the inner race and having the track running on the outer race? ) That would offer support i imagine as well as allowing things to run smoothly
Not sure what you mean about the inner/outer races? Do you mean having the ball bearings on shafts, with the hauler tracks sitting on top?
It would be pretty bumpy, as the ridges on the tracks went by each bearing. I have some rubber tank-tread type material on order, will install that into a display base after the trip. That way I could make the base look like a snow/ice road, with the treadmill area supporting just the tracks themselves, should look pretty good. I need to get John to make me a maintenance barn diorama...!
Remember that the wheels are just temporary, so I can demo it next week at the museum, I dont have time to get the treadmill style base made. Longer term will be the base as I described above.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 13, 2017, 02:54:43 AM
That's looking great Chris.  I suspect that the more you run it, the smoother it will get.

Vince


You are correct! I was running it some more tonight, and its getting better. Then decided ​to give the tracks and chains some lube, which I had held off doing till the paint had cured well. Gave the tracks, chains, and gears a spray of Prolix oil, which I use on my gun parts, very thin, doesn't leave a grease layer, penetrates very well. It immediately ran smoother, slower, and at a lower pressure. Now, it can start and run the tracks down between 15 and 20 psi, less than half of pressure needed before. Nice!!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on May 13, 2017, 03:14:04 AM
Looking good Chris. A definite improvement with each video you've posted.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: ShopShoe on May 13, 2017, 02:53:23 PM
Outstanding Indeed. I've been following along and now that the engine is running and driving the tracks it looks spectacular.

ShopShoe
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: fumopuc on May 13, 2017, 07:09:52 PM
Hi Chris, a remarkable milestone is reached. Enjoy your trip.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: scc on May 13, 2017, 10:32:52 PM
Wonderful progress Chris.  Those little cylinders have a lot to do shifting all that transmission!...   Very impressive project.

Regards             Terry
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 13, 2017, 10:53:25 PM
Thanks guys! Its a big relief after all that build time that it will go! After this, next big milestone will be it running on steam, going to take some experiments with the burner possibly to get the supply over time to hold up, but I am encouraged by how little air it takes, the small tank on the portable compressor lasts a good while without the compressor running.


Look forward to lots of pics and videos in a week!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on May 13, 2017, 11:21:27 PM
Hi Chris,
 Well done!
Just loving it.......that tube is calling...........wife's lawn / grass would take a bit of punishment sliding round the corners!..........would mean I wouldnt have to cut it so often........... :naughty:

Looking forward to the pictures on your return

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on May 14, 2017, 12:06:37 AM
Flipping awesome Chris!

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 14, 2017, 12:38:02 AM
Most excellent Chris!!  Enjoy your trip and take lots of pictures please.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 14, 2017, 02:02:26 AM
Most excellent Chris!!  Enjoy your trip and take lots of pictures please.

Bill
Count on it! I am planning on doing a full photo survey (with measurements) of their Lombard (I think they actually have a second one on loan, at least they did during the restoration process that they used for duplicating missing parts from, if so will get shots of that too). Also pics/videos of the machines running. Probably will put up an album online of a selection of them.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on May 15, 2017, 06:49:13 PM
Looking great Chris and I do see some binding of the chains causing it to slow down. If you watch the chain you can see it tighten up and the speed slow down. But hey Dog I love it man outstanding.


Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 15, 2017, 09:59:38 PM
Looking great Chris and I do see some binding of the chains causing it to slow down. If you watch the chain you can see it tighten up and the speed slow down. But hey Dog I love it man outstanding.


Don
Yup, got a couple of those spots fixed before I packed it up, need to taper the sprocket tooth tips just a little more to get it to center the incoming links better, not bad for first couple of runs though, very happy with it so far. Lots to do when I get home. Meanwhile, back out to the beach before it gets dark!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 17, 2017, 02:33:28 AM
I spent a great day at the logging museum photographing and measuring the cab and boiler on their Lombard. Well, both, they have a second one on loan, but its boiler is the original, so they just move it on air. Interesting to compare the two, just a few minor differences, the cab is a bit different and it has a shelter over the steering position.


Also showed them my Shay and the Lombard model in its current state, here is a video compilation of that which Herb Crosby put together of that.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3Op4gDntHE


The group there is amazing, very helpful, friendly, and talented. I am really looking forward to seeing their Lombard run Saturday. Today they moved it outside on compressed air to do some leak tests after the recent boiler inspection. All well, one minor leak on the whistle base. I did get to blow the whistle, great fun! Also got a tour of their sawmill, water powered, and the line shaft driven machine shop, reminded me a lot of John's diorama.
Took tons of photos, will put up an album after I get home. Also vids from the run Saturday... Gonna sleep like a log tonight!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on May 17, 2017, 02:49:38 AM
Great video Chris!

Thanks for sharing.


Dave
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 17, 2017, 03:26:15 AM
Well Dave beat me to it. Sure looks like you had a very interested audience. Looking forward to all the pictures too, once you get home. Enjoy the week!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on May 17, 2017, 03:30:20 AM
Enjoyed the video Chris. Sounds like the folks were pretty impressed with your work (no surprise there), as I'm sure you will be with theirs.  :)

So did you leave the Shop Elves at home? Party time at the Rueby residence!  :whoohoo:  :DrinkPint:

Jim

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 17, 2017, 03:35:31 AM
Let's hope they don't run out of cookies before Chris's return. Hungry mad gnomes is not a pretty picture   :ShakeHead:

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 17, 2017, 12:45:23 PM
The elves are well supervised, otherwise the house would be a smoking ruin by now! Then all the neighbors shiny bits go missing, all sorts of havoc as they spread. Shop elves are a big responsibility!!


 :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: scc on May 17, 2017, 06:48:43 PM
Chris, I enjoyed the video, thanks for posting.   .......never seen a Shay in detail before. It's also nice as a recent member to put a face to a name!

Regards..........Terry
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on May 17, 2017, 07:20:45 PM
Just awesome Chris we get to see your mug and the models together. Just down right great craftsmanship and a great presentation. I..........like.........  :Love:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: paul gough on May 19, 2017, 05:59:23 AM
If its not too late to enquire with the Lombard restorers, Have they had any issues with the seals on top of the valves, any leak past, how much, etc. etc. Regards Paul Gough.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 19, 2017, 11:21:24 AM
If its not too late to enquire with the Lombard restorers, Have they had any issues with the seals on top of the valves, any leak past, how much, etc. etc. Regards Paul Gough.
I was talking with them Tuesday about the recent inspection and was there when they did a leak test, only spot with any concern this year was the valves at the base of the whistle coming off the steam dome, that had leaks in two places. The rest was good, but that test was with air, not steam. I'll be able to see about leaks tomorrow morning as they steam up, they said it would be several hours to fill and get up pressure.
Actually, there was one big leak, it was in the fire hose right after the pump coming off the creek to pump the water up the hill to the barn to the Hauler, was jetting through the fabric like crazy!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 20, 2017, 10:09:00 PM
Just spent another day at the logging museum, got there early to watch the watering up, steaming up, and lubing up all the bearings. Got to see inside more of it that way, and learned a lot from the engineer. Also there were two brothers that were taking measurements too, they have most of the parts to another real Lombard that they are restoring!

At noontime they started running the hauler around a long loop of trails, got to both ride in the cab and also steered for a circuit!  :whoohoo:

Given the 15:1 reduction from the steering wheel to the axle, it took lots of turns to steer, but I was surprised how much kickback there was from bumps, have to keep your thumbs out of the inside of the wheel or you will break them off.


Got lots more pics and videos, will get them posted in a couple of days.


Awesome week!

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on May 20, 2017, 11:39:43 PM
I finally had time to watch the video.  Just awsome Chris. 


-Bob
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 21, 2017, 12:24:25 AM
Sounds like you are having a blast Chris. Will look forward to seeing more pictures and videos whenever you can post them. Things like this trip can really get your batteries charged on a project like yours, especially getting to be in the cab and tending the steering too!! Safe travels home.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 21, 2017, 12:46:46 AM
Sounds like you are having a blast Chris. Will look forward to seeing more pictures and videos whenever you can post them. Things like this trip can really get your batteries charged on a project like yours, especially getting to be in the cab and tending the steering too!! Safe travels home.

Bill
Thanks Bill and Bob!


I also got a chance yesterday to go see Ron Ginger, who lives down the coast. It was partly seeing his video of the time he was out on a Lombard that got this whole project started last year! Toured his shop, yakked quite a while, and got a terrific boat tour of the local coast!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 21, 2017, 11:32:20 AM
Herb Crosby got this video posted of the day, nice summary. I will get mine up tomorrow...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qUXQVudr4o


And his photo album...
https://goo.gl/photos/51UdVQE7L5TvDJAo7
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on May 21, 2017, 11:58:57 AM
Excellent video. Looks like way too much fun was had.

Tom
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on May 21, 2017, 12:59:42 PM
Hi Chris,
 Looks like a fun day out!!

Now I know were I want to go when R tells me she's booked a visit to the North East Coast!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on May 21, 2017, 02:57:41 PM
That was a very cool video. And that's you driving there part of the time, isn't it Chris?  That must have been a great experience!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on May 21, 2017, 03:37:35 PM
Great video Chris. I'll be looking forward to seeing yours as well.

When you went screaming by, while steering, it looked like you had your "race face" on!   :lolb:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on May 21, 2017, 09:47:02 PM
Chris--What a great, great video!! I will have a big smile on my face for the rest of the day after watching that. Thank you.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 21, 2017, 11:14:49 PM
Wonderful stuff Chris. Now looking forward to yours as well. What a fantastic engine!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 22, 2017, 12:00:47 AM
Thanks all - it was a fantastic experience! Yup - I got to drive a lap around the museum, it is quite a bit of work with the geared down steering, several turns to make minor corrections, and every time you hit a bump it tries to throw you around the wheel! Great fun!
Just got home, will get pics up tomorrow...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: ShopShoe on May 22, 2017, 02:49:33 PM
(Tongue in Cheek OT)

How would it do in a tractor pull?

--ShopShoe
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 22, 2017, 03:19:32 PM
(Tongue in Cheek OT)

How would it do in a tractor pull?

--ShopShoe

It would not break speed records in a tractor pull, but it can pull a heck of a lot of weight, amazing amount of low speed torque.

They did pull it forward with a small gas tractor they have, but the Lombard was freewheeling.

I did hear about a pull-off between a Lombard and a Shay, Lombard did great till the Shay engineer dropped sand under the wheels for traction - the train was much heavier, once it got traction it would win!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 22, 2017, 06:42:25 PM
All right - time for some trip pictures! Got some good ones picked out, and some videos uploaded.
I got there Tuesday morning and spent the day taking pictures and measurements of every little detail that I could see, then more every time I turned around and spotted something else, like the original cylinders sitting off under a bench (they were cracked, new ones were cast and machined).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tnnefc43r/DSC_3894.jpg)
On the inside, here is the steam passage slot - which we usually do on the models as a shallow depression and a drilled hole:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/z1m6mvttz/DSC_3895.jpg)
Here is the original boiler, made from steel plate and with a rivetted single-lapped seam. That won't meet code anymore (the later boilers were a butted-seam with a plate on either side), so a new welded boiler was made, but they added the rivet lines to match the look of this one.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/shjegjft3/DSC_3203.jpg)
It was great to have the boiler separate for measurements.
Other little details like the oil-can rack inside the cab, next to the boiler backhead:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6h31zwx53/DSC_2942.jpg)
And I did not know that the EPA stickers for fuel economy went this far back! The museum does have a sense of humor!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gollcbjd3/DSC_3339.jpg)
Here is the other Lombard they have on display, this one is owned by the Crooker family, it is on loan to the museum, they only run it on air occasionally to keep it freed up, it has the original boiler in it, and the little shack over the steering position that most owners added to keep the steersman from turning into a popsicle on really cold winter days.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/94sia9q6f/DSC_4090.jpg)
Another relic, me, by the machine as it was steaming up. It took a few hours to get up to temperature and pressure, they fired it on wood - they can use either wood or coal.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6704ub7wn/DSC_0173.jpg)
I got some good portatrait shots of the hauler during the day...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qnb5cji6f/DSC_4488.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/dhvn6foav/DSC_4422.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/v6iskbao7/DSC_4417.jpg)
As well as chances to ride along in the cab and also take a lap steering!   :whoohoo:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mw1kq84hz/DSC_0240.jpg)
Its quite a workout to steer one of these, you can see the gear reduction from the wheel down to the axle, its about a 15:1 reduction, so even small corrections take a full turn or two!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/l1oq8hhhj/DSC_0237a.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/5wsmaytaf/DSC_0226a.jpg)
Now, if you want your own full grown Lombard Hauler, they are not hard to track through the woods!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6tz1ju4sn/DSC_4496.jpg)
Also, off at the side of the barn is this nice big old lathe, but it would not fit in my car...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ywifd7miv/DSC_3272.jpg)
Under it are a whole bunch of gears, could these be threading gear sets for the lathe??
(https://s5.postimg.cc/guzafeshz/DSC_3276.jpg)
They also have a full belt-driven machine shop (just for display, they didn't make any of the replacement parts here) over on the side of the barn, it reminded me of John's wonderful dioramas.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/yay1uuguf/DSC_3235.jpg)
Had to get a close up of the front name plate:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/srqwzvufb/DSC_3150.jpg)
On Thursday I took a tour of the Owls Head and Seals Cove Transportation museums, both have lots of early cars, including Stanley Steamers. The Owls Head museum has a big Corliss compound engine that they run on compressed air, plus some other engines that would be great projects for some of you IC engine masters, like this 28 cylinder engine (this one is a cutaway model, full size).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/i3wcsiz7r/DSC_3423.jpg)
And also this beautiful American LaFrance fire engine - this one was converted to be a gas-powered engine during its life.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/k726mg9mv/DSC_3471.jpg)
Back in the restoration hanger they were recovering the wings of this bizarre glider, which some lunatic inventor built with a gaff rigged SAIL on top! As you might guess, first puff of breeze and it flipped over and crashed. Then he rebuilt it with changes, same thing happened. Did he learn? Nope. Did it all a third time! They are restoring it for display now. One of the few planes and cars there that are not aken out and run periodically... Another early failed plane was one that had 4 big panels like flapping wings. They are covered in layers of feathers! Nope, that didnt fly either...!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qjhbwacp3/DSC_3522.jpg)
All in all a wonderful trip, still need to sort through the rest of the photos that I took for the model/plans, and get the boiler and cab 3-D modelled up. REALLY glad for digital cameras, it would have cost a fortune in film and processing!!

Now for some videos:
Started the day with a blast on the whistle:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOSKZweWMEI

and a chance to steer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jolDuFfVg4k

Close view of how the tracks work, you can see how the inner roller chains act like bearing races. One thing that some remarked on was the speed of the tracks on my early test runs of the models, which was high until I got the sticky spots evened out. In these videos, the hauler is only going about 2mph, its normal speed when hauling a several hundred ton train of logs is 5mph on level ground, faster on a downhill. Even at this slow speed, the tracks are whizzing by at times. For these runs, with no load behind it, they had the throttle just cracked open a couple notches, there was LOTS more travel on it, but we could not get them to pull any wheelies...!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5tJoK9prEk

And some more videos of it coming and going:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHtd8GFENAk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crkTxXdbAfo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtDXb9rjDV8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuSd_6We16U

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 22, 2017, 07:03:38 PM
These are all great Chris!  I guess postcards are not what they used to be in this digital age, but some of those pictures are what I call picture postcard worthy. Great stuff, thanks for sharing !!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on May 22, 2017, 07:43:29 PM
Awww wow! That's some nice photo's Chris thanks for sharing. Now I see the real Machine in action. Oh by the way nice mug shot there Dog...... :cheers:


Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Admiral_dk on May 22, 2017, 09:05:16 PM
Great pictures, videos and build log  :praise2:

Chris I've enjoyed your build log ever since you did your Shay  :whoohoo: and now you has sneaked up on another "centennial" (100 pages) and this says a lot about how much everybody here enjoys them too  :NotWorthy:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on May 22, 2017, 10:53:37 PM
Hi Chris,
 Have you managed to stop grinning yet?

Great photos & videos, nice to see all the detail going round on the tracks, makes all the following along of your build come together very nicely! Now looking forward to the rest!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 22, 2017, 11:00:20 PM
Thanks guys!   :cheers:

And yes, still grinning!  ^-^

Just a wonderful trip, even the weather finally got nice, 70s to 90s all week after a really rainy spring. I've got most things unpacked, not all put away, and LOTS more pictures to sort out to draw plans from...

At present, doubt I will be back up there for the July run, probably will wait for the fall event, should have it all complete by then - about 10 hours drive time one way to get there is a looonnng way to go, but it was well worth it!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 23, 2017, 04:59:36 PM
This morning I spent some time transcribing measurements of the real machine's boiler from the trip, then was putting away the last of the stuff from the trip and decided it was time for a REAL test of the model. I put a quick shutoff valve on the base of the compressor hose, and moved it all out to the great room where there is about a 20' space of carpet with nothing in the way. Applied some pressure, and ITS ALIVE!!! And even the roller bearing chains worked! Not easy to control the speed with a quarter-turn shutoff valve, so it jumps a bit, but not bad!!

[youtube1]https://youtu.be/KsPkY1yXY2Q[/youtube1]

[youtube1]https://youtu.be/gkTtC9Ho-sY[/youtube1]

[youtube1]https://youtu.be/cz_6Xy9Ph1w[/youtube1]

 :cartwheel:
 :pinkelephant:
 :whoohoo:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 23, 2017, 05:15:54 PM
Amazing Chris, you are getting things dialed in now and it shows, it doesn't appear that jumpy at all. Just hope you didn't leave oily tracks or you may find yourself in the dog house :)

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 23, 2017, 08:45:21 PM
Amazing Chris, you are getting things dialed in now and it shows, it doesn't appear that jumpy at all. Just hope you didn't leave oily tracks or you may find yourself in the dog house :)

Bill
No worries there, the lube I used is a synthetic that dries, no oily residue.


Ran it a bunch of times back and forth, only had a cotter pin wire snag a carpet fiber once. Very encouraging to see it run so easily with low air consumption. Still grinning!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 23, 2017, 09:34:40 PM
Hi all,


With the boiler work about to start, I have been looking at making the round plate for the center of the smokebox door, which has the engine number and manufacturer name. Any recommendations on a source for getting one made  someplace that does custom photo etching on metal? I can provide the artwork, but am not set up for the etching work, and the detail in​ the letters for a .800" plate is too small for me to carve.
Any good places to try, any to avoid?


Thanks!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: steam guy willy on May 24, 2017, 12:03:02 AM
Wow, Brilliant, great to see it running....All that work has really paid off...now comes some real muscle work rather than letting the electric motors do it all!! Looking forward to it going under steam ! :praise2:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 24, 2017, 12:39:14 AM
Wow, Brilliant, great to see it running....All that work has really paid off...now comes some real muscle work rather than letting the electric motors do it all!! Looking forward to it going under steam ! :praise2:

Thanks Willy! Could you hear my giggling from there when I got it running across the floor the first time? I think I stopped the camera just before the excited laughter started!  :embarassed:

I've been going through the pictures I took at the museum last week extracting all the measurements on the boiler and saddle tank so I can draw up the plans. While I was there, I kept getting asked "Are you STILL taking pictures?", but it looks like I took just enough! Considering that it is a 10 hour drive one way to get there, it was well worth a full day of measuring and picture taking of all the angles, parts, lengths, widths, etc.  To save time there, I held up a tape measure to everything and took pictures of that in place, so I can take my time and get all the details in comfort at home.

So far I have not hit anything I could not get a measurement on, even sizes of rivets and thier spacing. When starting the model, I had taken some of the part dimensions to nearest stock sizes, for things like shafts especially. One thing I am hoping to do is to generate a second set of plans with full dimensions to document the original machine - something the museum does not have, sure they will like a copy! I wish they were closer, so I could make numerous day trips like you are able to do on the Beeleigh Mill engine.

I should have the boiler drawn up in a few days, and start in on the fabrication of it by next week.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 24, 2017, 12:57:25 PM
 :pinkelephant: :pinkelephant:
Awesome Chris! Just awesome.

My expenditure for popcorn is well paid off.  ;D
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 24, 2017, 02:14:06 PM
:pinkelephant: :pinkelephant:
Awesome Chris! Just awesome.

My expenditure for popcorn is well paid off.  ;D

Thanks Carl!

Spent this morning getting the artwork drawn up for the front nameplate, giving a place in UK called Narrow Planet a try to get them etched, very reasonable price.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on May 24, 2017, 02:31:23 PM
I found myself with a big grin watching the videos Chris.  I can't imagine how big your's was.  Your cheeks must ache.  I've said it numerous times,  I just think that this is such a cool project.  Congratulations on a successful test.

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 24, 2017, 07:57:00 PM
I found myself with a big grin watching the videos Chris.  I can't imagine how big your's was.  Your cheeks must ache.  I've said it numerous times,  I just think that this is such a cool project.  Congratulations on a successful test.

-Bob

Thanks Bob!

Today the tracks and sprockets I ordered (LynxMotion) for the treadmill base arrived, they look perfect - about a 1" by 2" rubber tread on each one, so they will grip well, and the sprockets engage nicely so I can make up a common axle set for both tracks. The plan is to set up one of these tracks, each the length of the model tracks, under each side for the model to sit on. The top of these tracks will be at the height of the display base, which will get a surface that looks like the iced road that the hauler would run on, maybe a terrified deer off at one corner! With that setup, I can run on air for indoor demonstrations, and still remove the model for running outside on steam. Stay tuned for progress pics as that comes together - still have another set of pictures to go through for the rest of the boiler/tank measurements so I can draw that up...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 25, 2017, 12:36:24 AM
Good start today on the boiler design for the model, got the shell, endplates, and some of the bushings in, still need to do more fittings, smokestack, etc.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dwzfeupqf/Boiler_v9.jpg)
The steam dome looks unusually tall, but since this machine has a saddle tank, the dome is taller to clear the top of the tank so the whistle, safety valve can be up top. Glad that the museum had the old boiler sitting out to take measurements from!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6ega67ydj/DSC_3203.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 25, 2017, 02:58:23 PM
Interesting side detail on the engine. I was asking about the boiler insulation on the original (was asbestos originally, for the restoration they used a more safe modern insulation material instead). They pointed out that on the cylinders themselves there is a wrap of insulation around the center section, and there are also endcaps bolted on with insulation inside, and heavy cast iron caps sit down over the steam chests with more insulation.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/if0102bif/DSC_2589a.jpg)
The end caps are bolted on, but the top caps are just held by thier own weight. These caps are the original Lombard castings, they are in the Lombard parts lists too. I have never seen that done before, but I guess it makes sense given the extreme cold these were used in. Anyone know if that was common for locomotives as well?
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 25, 2017, 04:26:45 PM
More progress on the boiler plans, got the rest of the bushings and such in, as well as the stack. Still need to do the smokebox door...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wfhk4bbnr/Boiler_v11.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/9s2ay5w3r/Boiler_v11a.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/h9biddlmv/Complete_Hauler_v47.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on May 25, 2017, 10:52:23 PM
Chris as usual I am late chimimg in but man that is just awesome and a big grin on your face for sure. Looks like you got the binding out and she runs smooth. Damn Dog .....I........like...... :Love:


Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 25, 2017, 11:53:23 PM
Chris as usual I am late chimimg in but man that is just awesome and a big grin on your face for sure. Looks like you got the binding out and she runs smooth. Damn Dog .....I........like...... :Love:


Don
Thanks Don! I am incredibly pleased with how it is running now, going nice and slow across the floor, steers well, self starting every time, only problem is the face hurting from all the smiling!

Had a cold rainy day here today, spent most of it designing up the boiler. The complicated bits are getting the piping in the smokebox for the steam supply to the cylinders figured out, deciding where to put the union nut fittings so it can be assembled in place. On the real thing it was curved pipe and cast fittings, for the model straight pipe and 90 degree joints are more practical. I think. So far. Think I've got that sorted out, had to model up the unions too, changed my mind partway through on the pipe size to use, started out too large.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on May 26, 2017, 04:54:17 AM
It was wonderful to see those initial runs across the carpet. I bet that was quite the rush! Especially after just getting back from riding on the full sized version.  :cheers:

Jim (also smiling out here in the west)  :)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 26, 2017, 05:06:30 PM
More work done on the boiler 3D modelling, cleared out some of the cobwebs and brain farts and reduced the number of union fittings, more silver soldered fittings, should be much easier to assemble this way.
Still need to model up the steam dome fittings, sight glass, etc. Getting close to ready to convert to plans and start shaping metal...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mkaxlz9af/Boiler_v18.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/b989xm2fb/Boiler_v18a.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/4wt4nrzd3/Complete_Hauler_v48.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 29, 2017, 12:02:00 AM
I think I have nearly finished up the 3D modelling on the boiler. The front door has an amazing number of parts and shapes. Still need to decide where it will hinge for the model - I am leaning towards having the entire door and its rim swing out to give best access to the smokebox for getting at the fittings, plus lighting the burner and visually checking the flame on it during running. To do that, and not have any outside hinge added, am currently leaning towards a double hinged bar on the inside that attaches to one side of the shell...
Anyway, here it is so far, rendered up with the rest of the hauler:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/e623pflc7/Complete_Hauler_v49.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: kvom on May 29, 2017, 12:47:18 AM
For the smokebox door I suggest dummy hinges and bolts except for 4 screws to attach the door to the smokebox.  Just remove the entire door for access.  Most of the locos at our club do it this way.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 29, 2017, 01:01:53 AM
For the smokebox door I suggest dummy hinges and bolts except for 4 screws to attach the door to the smokebox.  Just remove the entire door for access.  Most of the locos at our club do it this way.
Thats a possibility. I was leaning towards an internal hinge to make it quick to open/close, handy for quick lighting and checking of the burner (butane fired). I'll see how it works out in next 3d session...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on May 29, 2017, 01:07:08 AM
For some reason, I'm no longer receiving automatic notifications of new comments made in this thread. I love what you are doing, and perhaps by reposting in the thread the notifications will start working again.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 29, 2017, 01:24:36 AM
For some reason, I'm no longer receiving automatic notifications of new comments made in this thread. I love what you are doing, and perhaps by reposting in the thread the notifications will start working again.---Brian
Maybe your shop elves are intercepting your emails...  :Lol:

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on May 29, 2017, 12:27:29 PM
Just checking in Chris. Will be interesting to see how you tackle the boiler. No doubt with your usual finesse and attention to detail. The drawings look great though!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 29, 2017, 02:08:00 PM
Just checking in Chris. Will be interesting to see how you tackle the boiler. No doubt with your usual finesse and attention to detail. The drawings look great though!

Bill
Thanks Bill, looks like I will start cutting and bending copper this week. The end caps will be formed from sheet stock, using the kinds of formers that Kozo shows in his books, and I have sketched up some holders for the boiler tube for securing it in the mill to do all the drilling and boring of holes...


On the future project front, I got hold of the local historical society that controls the Marion 91 steam shovel (Panama canal type!) sitting outside a local quarry, hoping to get permission to measure and photograph it, turns out someone had already done detail cad drawings of it, they just need to dig out the disc for me. Here's hoping its a detailed set...!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: PJPickard on May 29, 2017, 07:03:11 PM
This thing is just amazing, you do excellent work and do it fast too! I still would like to build one of these someday!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 30, 2017, 02:40:41 AM
This thing is just amazing, you do excellent work and do it fast too! I still would like to build one of these someday!
Thanks!


You just need to cut the first part to get started. Then make a few thousand more!  :thinking:


I got the boiler 3d model done, and generated the drawings from it (12 pages worth!), So I can get started on cutting copper finally.


Well, almost. First some wood fixture parts to hold the tube and form the end caps with...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 31, 2017, 02:12:08 PM
Now that all the plans for the boiler are drawn, time to start cutting copper. Well, almost, first need to cut some copper-ish colored wood for the forms and a holding jig for the boiler tube. For those of you metal-heads out there, wood is a kind of metal that grows outside (remember outside?) in these tall things called 'trees'....  :Lol:

First up were the formers that the boiler end caps will be shaped over in a series of anealing/hammering operations. Simple wood discs to clamp around the sheet metal disc, with one edge rounded over to allow the copper to take a nice bend rather than a crease.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ej873l5mv/IMG_0415.jpg)
The wood blanks were bolted to the lathe faceplate with a couple washers between to give the cutting tool clearance before hitting the faceplate.

Next, I need a way to hold the boiler tube in the mill for all the drilling and boring operations for the holes for all the bushings, steam dome, smokestack, and bolts. The tube is longer and wider than the table on the mill, so a normal v-block with hold down clamps does not work well. So, I made up a pair of blocks that have a hole in the center for the tube, split halfway up so it can be bolted down tight over the tube. Started out with pairs of blocks with threaded rods down each side, bolted them horizontally to the rotary table on a faceplate with a plywood spacer to save the faceplate, and milled out the center to be a snug fit on the boiler tube. Before milling, I had rough cut the openings on the band saw to save milling time.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/u5zggyjev/IMG_0416.jpg)
The blocks were then screwed and glued to base blocks to allow them to be bolted down in the t-slots on the table. With this setup, I can move the blocks and tube as needed to get access to bore the holes. The tube was marked at 90 degree intervals with lines along its length, and the blocks have reference marks at the tops of the holes, so I can line up the tube properly for each operation.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/yge4cjohz/IMG_0418.jpg)
With the mill table centered over the tube, the Y axis was locked down, and things are ready for drilling finally!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 31, 2017, 03:34:13 PM
And starting with the top holes for the light bracket and the smokestack. The light bracket hole was drilled, then a small flat milled in for the bracket to sit on.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/s6iupjp3b/IMG_0421.jpg)
Then moved over to the center of the smokestack hole, drilled a 3/8" starter hole:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9s8blkcsn/IMG_0422.jpg)
and took it up to .800 with the boring head. Lots of small incremental passes... The copper cuts fairly well, leaves just a small burr to remove.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/cau0m8yiv/IMG_0423.jpg)
Then, loosened up the holding brackets and slid the tube down to do the steam dome hole. Ready to start on that, but time to head off for lunch with some friends, more this afternoon possibly, depending how warm it gets outside...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rxl9zmcav/IMG_0424.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 31, 2017, 08:42:01 PM
Few more holes done this afternoon after lunch (burp).

Got the hole for the steam dome tube drilled and bored out to size - here it is while checking the fit:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/e8mwf0mvb/IMG_0425.jpg)

Also did the hole for the water fill bushing,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/p9i1k1f47/IMG_0426.jpg)
As you can see, the holding blocks are working out well for positioning the tube for all the different holes - appears to be holding quite well too. I had thought that I would need to shave a little off the joint between the upper and lower halves to get it to grip well, but boring out the wood just a bit smaller than the tube worked out perfect - to move the tube I just need to loosen the nuts on the threaded rods, lift the tube up, and it slides back and forth. Dumb luck strikes again!

I am moving along to the other holes - steam tube bushings from the smokebox, mounting holes for the forward angle braces to the frames, mount holes for the whistle pull and hinge blocks, plus a hole at each end plate flange location to hold them during silver soldering. Should have all those done later today, can start on forming the end caps tomorrow probably...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 31, 2017, 11:47:58 PM
And finishing up the holes in the boiler tube...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/s652kbkxz/IMG_0427.jpg)
And some family shots of the tube resting in place on the frame:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ltpxahhvr/IMG_0428.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/6m9xq4q13/IMG_0429.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/fikpu2gnb/IMG_0430.jpg)
Those holes all went well, pretty sure I got them all. Tomorrow I will probably start on forming the end caps from some copper sheet stock...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on June 01, 2017, 12:58:28 AM
Love all the setup there Dog you have it together that's for sure. The boiler is on it's way and looking at all the action going on here it won't take you long. Just some more fine work Chris......and .......I.......like...... :Love:


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 01, 2017, 06:40:45 PM
Thanks Don!

This morning, on to the boiler end caps. The other day I had turned the former discs to 2.74", this morning cut the copper discs out of some 2mm (about .1", forget if it was originally a metric size, got it when building the Shay a couple years ago) thick copper sheet and sanded the edges smooth. I set up outside with the torch and a portable workbench, and annealed the discs, then sandwiched them between the formers and hammered over the edges with a nylon faced hammer. The copper work hardens pretty quick, so this is how far it got after one round:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ydup931s7/IMG_0432.jpg)
Re-annealed it by heating it up to start of a dull glow with the torch, cooled it in water, and another round got this far:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5cqczohc7/IMG_0433.jpg)
As you can see, the sides are not just bending down, they are pushing in together as they go to take up the extra material as the circumference gets smaller. If it was just a straight line bend, one time would probably have been enough. Since it is bending into a cylinder, it takes more annealing steps. When done, the sides will be thicker than the original sheet was.
Third round:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/py54rkyx3/IMG_0434.jpg)

and fourth:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/a16cuv6iv/IMG_0435.jpg)
Getting close, just needs some smoothing out of the edges. Another anneal:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/sus5rv4qv/IMG_0436.jpg)
And it is down around the sides of the former nicely:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/v0mgmd87b/IMG_0437.jpg)
The sides are in tight enough that it is gripping the wood former, so that is all its going to go. Pried out the former with a small screwdriver tip, and we are done forming.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4tl9qepxj/IMG_0438.jpg)
While the caps are soaking in some pickle solution, I trimmed the tube for the steam dome to length. The copper is a bit grabby, so I set up the steady rest to make sure it did not move out of position:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/harxdkl3b/IMG_0440.jpg)
Once the end caps were clean again, I set them up in the 3-jaw with the jaws reversed, and added a brass block with a hole in the end for the live center to push against to make sure the caps did not slip. The brass block is not attached, just pressed against the cap. The outside edge was turned down to be a snug fit in the boiler tube, using a bunch of light passes since a deeper cut would grab into the copper.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rosr6t5tz/IMG_0443.jpg)
Once it was down to size, a rub with an abrasive pad cleaned up the outside surface nicely.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tqon7befb/IMG_0441.jpg)
And a test fit into the tube:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5bl0k04w7/IMG_0442.jpg)
They both fit well, snug enough to need taps with a dowel from the inside to get them out again, but not too tight for the silver solder to flow in.
Next time, I will start drilling/boring the holes in the endcaps, then make up the interior ribs for the caps. I used the tables in Kozo's train books to determine the placement of the ribs needed to keep the caps from deforming under pressure - worked out that one crossed set will do the trick.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 01, 2017, 09:20:47 PM
The front end cap was clamped down on the mill table, using the former screwed to the faceplate, the faceplate bolted to the t-slot in the table, and some hold down clamps to make sure the end cap did not shift. Then the steam pipe bushing hole was drilled
(https://s5.postimg.cc/t6e7idakn/IMG_0444.jpg)
and bored to size
(https://s5.postimg.cc/m4g9w66yv/IMG_0445.jpg)
then the same was done with the fire tube hole:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/yyebpikef/IMG_0447.jpg)
and a length of the fire tube stock used to check the fit - all good on this one...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ppc5febif/IMG_0446.jpg)
Next up, another set of holes in the back end cap, which will include holes for the water glass bushing and the manifold bushing...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on June 02, 2017, 01:55:52 AM
Oh! You got started!
I guess I'd better pay better attention.  ;D

I'm looking forward to this.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on June 02, 2017, 02:05:45 AM
Those sure cleaned up well Chris, have to say they sure look better than they did just after being beaten into shape. Interesting to watch and nice pictures.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 02, 2017, 02:15:26 AM
Oh! You got started!
I guess I'd better pay better attention.  ;D

I'm looking forward to this.
Wait, where is... Oh, there.. have some popcorn!   :popcorn:


I had forgotten how grabby copper can get, light cuts when turning seem to work best, same with drilling, a slow feed rate. So far​ everything has fit well, hope that continues with the pile of bushings and fittings that it will need. Biggest difference from when I did the Shay boiler is that this time I have the full torch setup. On the Shay I had to learn about the larger propane torches, wound up getting a Sievert handle, nozzles, and regulator. I noticed today when shutting it down and putting away the tank that the 20 pound grill tank is getting pretty light, need to get that refilled before the silver soldering starts!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 02, 2017, 02:22:34 AM
Those sure cleaned up well Chris, have to say they sure look better than they did just after being beaten into shape. Interesting to watch and nice pictures.

Bill
Yeah  they looked pretty grungy at first, the pickle and a scouring pad did wonders! I guessed right on the formers, the caps wound up needing only about 25 or 30 thou taken off to fit the tube. The flanges are back to the original thickness of the plates before forming, still thicker at the bend. Wonderful how the copper will flow around a shape.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 02, 2017, 04:18:38 PM
Holes in back end cap bored, same way as on the front cap:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/va2ev9eiv/IMG_0448.jpg)
Parts so far,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/enkum6ll3/IMG_0449.jpg)
Then moved on to making the reinforcing ribs for the inside of the end caps. These are sheet copper, cut to width, then did the fiddly fitting with the tabletop belt sander, tweaking till they were a tight fit all the way across.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bi08vz2yv/IMG_0450.jpg)
Next is to cut and fit the cross ribs. They will be notched into the center of the first ribs, then silver soldered in place.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/a48m0o3pj/IMG_0452.jpg)


Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on June 02, 2017, 05:20:14 PM
Looking good Chris!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 03, 2017, 12:45:05 AM
Looking good Chris!!

Bill

Wow - haven't seen that cartoon in a LONG time!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on June 03, 2017, 04:15:54 AM
An oldie but goodie, we won't say how old  :lolb:

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 03, 2017, 04:27:59 AM
An oldie but goodie, we won't say how old  :lolb:

Bill
Maybe WE won't, but I will:  1968, according to this:  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keep_on_Truckin%27_(comics)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 03, 2017, 09:56:47 PM
Not much time in the shop the last couple days, did get the upper rib sections fitted, and drilled them for some 1/16" rivets to hold them in place duing silver soldering. I was going to use a small brass screw, but tapping copper to 0-80 did not seem too practical, its too soft and grabby, so decided to use a rivet in the upper rib, the notched joint to the cross bar was then peened over to lock the two pieces together.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qntw3t3nr/IMG_0453.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/dxpnqpvpj/IMG_0454.jpg)
Ready to start making all the bushings and fittings, lots of turning in bronze rod coming soon...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 04, 2017, 06:23:57 PM
I made up a handfull of the bronze boiler bushings today, simple turning and threading for each:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/41t64tfbb/IMG_0455.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/w377iiklj/IMG_0456.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/jd2z5fcnb/IMG_0457.jpg)
All the same, except for the ones for the steam tube through the top of the boiler, and the one to connect the manifold in place. Here they are fit in place, push fit in thier holes:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/m8g2cagnb/IMG_0458.jpg)
Next up is the top cap for the steam dome, which also has a ring inside the tube to bolt down to. Started with some 1-1/2" bronze, turned the end down to be a close fit to the inside of the steam dome tube, and also a step out to the size of the cap which matches the outside of the tube. This is the same arrangement that the real boiler has.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dep5v6ton/IMG_0459.jpg)
The smaller diameter section is long enough for the ring plus room to part it off. The chuck was then moved over to the rotary table on the mill, and the 2-56 tap holes were drilled to a depth to match the finished ring.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fkjgpox53/IMG_0460.jpg)
Without moving the mill table, so it will be in position for the holes in the cap later, moved the chuck back to the lathe to bore out the center section, and part off the ring.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/s0krx6fuv/IMG_0461.jpg)
With the outer end of the cap smoothed up and the edge filed to a radius, moved back over to the mill and drilled the clearance holes for the bolts.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/i4joxja2v/IMG_0462.jpg)
Then back to the lathe again, and parted off the cap.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/g199pva9z/IMG_0463.jpg)
Here are the parts so far, with the ring pressed in place in the tube.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/jywjf9x3b/IMG_0464.jpg)
And how it will look on the boiler:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/41xrik4p3/IMG_0465.jpg)
Next steps are to make up the bottom rings for the steam dome, which fit around it on the inside and outside of the boiler. Still need to work out the fixture to hold those rings to cut in the arcs so the mating edges fit close to the boiler surface - think that I should be able to bolt a 90 degree block to the faceplate, and mill it on the rotary table. The same setup will be needed to do the bottom rings on the smokestack...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on June 04, 2017, 09:35:56 PM
Nice progress Chris. I do see some silver soldering in your near future :)

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wdeputy on June 05, 2017, 12:32:09 AM
Chris,
Are you going to make a rivet squeezer for the boiler?

Walt
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Walsheng on June 05, 2017, 12:46:42 AM
Chris,
Are you going to make a rivet squeezer for the boiler?

Walt

Wonder if they make a full size one of those!  Wow!

John
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 05, 2017, 04:21:17 PM
Chris,
Are you going to make a rivet squeezer for the boiler?

Walt

Holey cow, thats a BIG rivet squeezer!!  John needs one of those in his diorama!

I did make one, but no where NEAR as big...
(https://s5.postimg.org/m3sc2mm13/IMG_8515.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 05, 2017, 04:32:00 PM
I got a start today on the base rings for the steam dome. There will be one ring inside and one outside the boiler tube, with one face curved to fit the tube. Started out by boring out the inside of a short length of bronze to fit the outside of the steam dome.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mpo8vfnbb/IMG_0481.jpg)
The bore does not go all the way through, the back wall will be used to bolt it to the milling fixture. Holes were drilled in the back wall, then the outside was then turned to size:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/v97mt6vnr/IMG_0482.jpg)
Here is the part bolted onto a chunk of angle stock, held onto the same faceplate rig I used on some earlier parts. The angle stock has holes to match the part on the vertical surface, and a row of holes and slots in the bottom so it can be adjusted for position on the wood plate.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6tzes4wqv/IMG_0483.jpg)
The end mill is not tall enough to go all the way down the face of the part in one go, so I did the top half first:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/54qbk2h1j/IMG_0485.jpg)
then came back and did the bottom half:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/edshu6pxj/IMG_0486.jpg)
Back over on the lathe, turned off the back wall:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7olye64lj/IMG_0488.jpg)
and after a quick debur of the edges, did a trail fit of the ring on the steam dome and boiler shell:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4j1cnylzb/IMG_0491.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/7eefutpzb/IMG_0492.jpg)
Next up will be the inner ring, which will have a convex arc cut into it to fit the inside surface.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on June 05, 2017, 06:31:12 PM
That looks fantastic Chris!!  The fit looks near perfect.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on June 05, 2017, 07:36:50 PM
Damn Dog I got the ask the question do you sleep while the elf's make them parts or you watch them.... :lolb: there sure is a lot of parts being made here man for just one person. What you feeding them Dog, it's got to be something good?  :lolb: more fine work Chris ....... :praise2:


Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 05, 2017, 07:41:39 PM
Damn Dog I got the ask the question do you sleep while the elf's make them parts or you watch them.... :lolb: there sure is a lot of parts being made here man for just one person. What you feeding them Dog, it's got to be something good?  :lolb: more fine work Chris ....... :praise2:


Don
Yeah, hard to sleep with all that racket in the shop...!

Started with just the cookies, now I think they are getting into the Belgian beer!

 :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on June 05, 2017, 07:45:57 PM
Damn Dog I got the ask the question do you sleep while the elf's make them parts or you watch them.... :lolb: there sure is a lot of parts being made here man for just one person. What you feeding them Dog, it's got to be something good?  :lolb: more fine work Chris ....... :praise2:


Don
Yeah, hard to sleep with all that racket in the shop...!

Started with just the cookies, now I think they are getting into the Belgian beer!

 :Lol:
Better watch the beer man that might get you in trouble being as them little fellows might get drunk and screw something up..... :lolb: :lolb:

 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: fumopuc on June 05, 2017, 07:52:42 PM
Hi Chris, I am still following along quietly.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 05, 2017, 08:41:18 PM
Hi Chris, I am still following along quietly.
Nice to have you along for the ride - feel free to follow noisily too!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on June 05, 2017, 09:57:06 PM
Hi Chris,
 That ring came out very nice! File that idea away for another day! The boiler is looking the business as well at this rate I'm still going to have  :popcorn: left over by next season!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on June 06, 2017, 01:02:43 AM
Good grief. Seems like I was just here yesterday.

You living in some alternative universe with longer days?

(I do know it's an alternative universe...the question is number of hours per day.)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 06, 2017, 01:27:09 AM
Good grief. Seems like I was just here yesterday.

You living in some alternative universe with longer days?

(I do know it's an alternative universe...the question is number of hours per day.)
Perfectly normal universe here, with the standard 47.3 hours per day.


Wait, are you in that silly little world with the blue sky? Oh, my, so sorry!


 :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on June 06, 2017, 01:41:31 AM
Wait, are you in that silly little world with the blue sky? Oh, my, so sorry!

Some one has blue sky?  :o
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on June 06, 2017, 01:56:05 AM
Still following along Chris.  Everything looks great.

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 06, 2017, 02:04:44 AM
Still following along Chris.  Everything looks great.

-Bob
Thanks Bob!


I got the other rings milled down tonight, pics up tomorrow...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on June 06, 2017, 03:21:20 AM
Good work Chris.

I've filed away so many ideas from this build, that I'm suffering from that not too common disease of: "Filed Away Idea Overload"!  :shrug:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 06, 2017, 03:23:52 AM
Good work Chris.

I've filed away so many ideas from this build, that I'm suffering from that not too common disease of: "Filed Away Idea Overload"!  :shrug:

Jim
Thanks Jim, this build is definitely a challenging one, has a bit of everything.


Don't file too much away, the part will be too small!
 :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on June 06, 2017, 03:56:03 AM
Good work Chris.

I've filed away so many ideas from this build, that I'm suffering from that not too common disease of: "Filed Away Idea Overload"!  :shrug:

Jim

Well, all I know is that I've forgotten more than I know....... :insane:

Great work on the boiler!!

Pete
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on June 06, 2017, 05:05:34 AM
Good work Chris.

I've filed away so many ideas from this build, that I'm suffering from that not too common disease of: "Filed Away Idea Overload"!  :shrug:

Jim

Well, all I know is that I've forgotten more than I know....... :insane:

Great work on the boiler!!

Pete

I know what you mean Pete.

Just this morning I was sitting on my bed with one shoe on and one off and I'll be darned if I could remember if I was getting up or going to bed!  :shrug:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on June 06, 2017, 05:55:27 AM
AHHAHAHHAHHAHAHHAAHHAHAHA......

Jim I know what you mean some days! I find opening the curtains helps.........though doing shift work it's not always guaranteed

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 06, 2017, 03:23:12 PM
Yesterday and this morning I got the rest of the dome and stack rings milled out.  Just like the first one, started with boring the inside out deep enough for the ring, and parting off to leave the back wall in place for bolting to the fixture.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/etvsh113b/IMG_0494.jpg)
The rings on the stack look about the same, just a smaller hole and the top ring is taller.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/k7z62bg7b/IMG_0496.jpg)
The milling went the same as for the first ring, adjusted the angle plate to get the right distance from the center of the rotary table, and made a series of cuts to take out the arc. These were done in two sets, since the end mill is not long enough to reach all the way down in one go.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6sc5cv7pj/IMG_0497.jpg)
For the inner rings, the angle plate was moved in, and the part bolted to the opposite face, and the part milled to match the inside diameter of the boiler rather than the outside.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ad80w3c93/IMG_0498.jpg)
I had a tricky time holding the first part in the chuck to part off the back wall, so for these I made an arbor to bolt the part to - worked much easier, no slippage in the chuck this time.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7yg5bnw07/IMG_0500.jpg)
The top ring for the smokestack, unlike the steam dome one which is hidden by the water tank, is out for show, so I turned in the flange on the bottom of it where it meets the smokebox.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/imjwai5zb/IMG_0501.jpg)
Due to the curve of the boiler, the flange cannot be completed on the lathe. The lower edges were done by hand with the belt sander, blending in the curves till the flange was about the same thickness all the way around.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6ypufyguf/IMG_0504.jpg)
A little more filing and sanding and that will be done. Here are the parts so far:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/u1gdf4ibr/IMG_0505.jpg)
Still need to drill/tap the holes in the rings to hold them to the tubes, turn the stack, and finally make the firetube. Once those are done, I think it will be ready for a bunch of silver soldering sessions. Oh, and also need to make the hand pump for the static pressure testing - will probably work on that when the parts are soaking in the pickle solution...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 06, 2017, 11:26:01 PM
For those of you who were wondering how I was going to get the inner steam dome ring in place, since the boiler tube is only 3" diameter and the dome is almost halfway along it (and I was wondering at first too), here is the super-high-tech solution, a stick:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/54hlbyj7r/IMG_0507.jpg)
The recess drilled in the top matches the size of the ring, little notch for the screw. With the ring in place like this:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3o62ttgav/IMG_0506.jpg)
it is simple to slide the ring over the tube when it is in place, turn the boiler upside down, remove the stick, and tighten the screw with a long handled nut driver. Works great, fortunately! With the parts held with the screws, the tubes and rings will be silver soldered in place. Kozo's Shay had a simaler arrangement, but it was a larger and shorter tube so my hand would fit in to place the ring.

Moving on to the fire tube, I marked out the positions for the set of cross tubes and drilled them. I like using the cross tubes, gives a bit more surface area to transfer the heat, and gives the hot gasses a bit a of spin on the way through. I've done this on the gauge 1 locos, seems to work well.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wt48jh687/IMG_0508.jpg)
Here is the fire tube test fit in the end caps.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/r67vm03pj/IMG_0510.jpg)
Few bits of cleanup, and I want to test flaring the cross tubes, and I can start silver soldering.

For the fire tube, it is best to pressure test it before soldering it in place inside the main shell. So, I am going to take a page from someone else's build here (sorry, forget which one), and make some end caps with threaded holes to take the hose from the hand pump and also the pressure gauge. That way I can static test it as a sub assembly first, and fix any leaks before it is inside the main tube. The fire tube has extra length at each end to allow for cutting off the test caps, which I still need to make, along with the hand pump. The hand pump will be standard design, just like the ones you can buy from PMR and other places. I have the drawings in Kozo's books, will follow that again. I made one for the Shay, but it is all installed inside the tender, and I don't want to take all that piping apart.

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on June 07, 2017, 12:36:03 AM
I can't keep up either Chris but it sure looks good even if you are in some alternate time continuum :)

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 07, 2017, 12:48:04 AM
I can't keep up either Chris but it sure looks good even if you are in some alternate time continuum :)

Bill
Thanks Bill, rainy days really help move along a project, just glad I didn't get a house up along Lake Ontario, they are getting washed away up there this year. Even the marinas are under water now.


Just went and made the temporary end caps for the fire tube from the scraps of bronze. Couple of fittings to connect the hoses, and it will be time to make the hand pump.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on June 07, 2017, 12:51:42 AM
Chris you are just smoking along!

The rings turned out very nice, love the way you profiled the chimney base.......remember an article in one of the magazines sometime back were the gent had figured out how to machine it......must see if I can find that......or am I just hoping that there was an article....... :old: :headscratch:

Also wondering why you didn't put more cross tubes?

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 07, 2017, 01:01:31 AM
Chris you are just smoking along!

The rings turned out very nice, love the way you profiled the chimney base.......remember an article in one of the magazines sometime back were the gent had figured out how to machine it......must see if I can find that......or am I just hoping that there was an article....... :old: :headscratch:

Also wondering why you didn't put more cross tubes?

Cheers Kerrin
I would love to see that article.


For the tubes, didn't want to back pressure the gas flow with too many, don't know how many would be best, so erred on the fewer side. Would make an interesting study. The G1 locos I have from factory don't have them, seen them in lots of home built boilers.


Any insight into how many and how close together they should be? Can still add more...

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: fumopuc on June 07, 2017, 12:46:04 PM

.......

Also wondering why you didn't put more cross tubes?

Cheers Kerrin

Hi Cris,
I do have the same thoughs in my head.
I am not a steam expert but, all the other boiler internals  I have seen, seams to have more tubes, which means more surface for heat transfer ?
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 07, 2017, 03:00:54 PM

.......

Also wondering why you didn't put more cross tubes?

Cheers Kerrin

Hi Cris,
I do have the same thoughs in my head.
I am not a steam expert but, all the other boiler internals  I have seen, seams to have more tubes, which means more surface for heat transfer ?
For water tube boilers, yes. But for a fire tube boiler with just the one main tube for the burner (am going to be using a poker type burner in the back end of the main fire tube), are lots of cross tubes common? Too many and it could restrict the flow of hot gasses, too few and it might as well be just the bare tube. Not sure where the sweet spot is for that. The commercially available G1 locos, which are a bit smaller than this one, just use the bare main tube, no cross tubes.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 08, 2017, 12:50:24 AM
Got the hand pump to use for static pressure testing drawn up. Standard style lever action pump, with o-ring plunger seal and ball bearing check valves. I sized the parts to use the bar stock I have on hand.
Outer view:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ldg74ell3/Hand_Pump_v4.jpg)
and wireframe view:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5dxjkupjb/Hand_Pump_v4_Internals.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on June 08, 2017, 08:44:53 AM
Hi Chris,
 I'll start checking my ME mags. My newish computer won't let me look at my database, says I'm not aloud  :killcomputer: :killcomputer:
I'll get the old one out, hopefully it will fire up. Maybe somebody else will beat me to it! I can live in hope can't I?

Right the photos of the boat & boiler, oh thru the one in of the engine....cause there are those here who droll over such desirable objects.....the boiler has a single flue with "S" shaped cross tubes, these aren't flat S,s but are also shaped in the other plane. I called Dad as he's seen in prior to assembly  & he says it is a work of art & there is a pile of tubes. How they all went in was lost on me when I talked to the gent who owns it! Sorry the gent doesn't live close so can't get any info for you. Dad figures that you would be lucky to see thru the flue!

Ok on your boiler, I'd at least double the number...other feel free to jump in here!....I don't think it will cause you any issues...the more heat you get into the water the more steam you will get, better to turn the burner down a bit than building a new boiler! I follow your info on the gauge 1 locos but the hauler I suspect is going to need just a bit more steam!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 08, 2017, 12:41:55 PM

That is one beaut of a boat! Must be a lot of fun to sail that one around.

Adding some more cross tubes at this stage is easy, the firetube is larger than the ones for the G1 locos, so it should be okay to add more cross tubes without obstructing the flow.

Thanks Kerrin!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: MJM460 on June 08, 2017, 01:38:58 PM
Hi Chris,

Like others, I am sure the designs I can remember had more cross tubes.  The first one far enough down the tube for the flame to be stable and combustion complete to avoid direct flame impingement, then the others relatively closely spaced, probably determined by the ligament in the main fire tube between the holes.  They are not in a straight line, but along a spiral like a very coarse thread giving perhaps half a turn over the remaining length so you can't see clear through.  However this does not really give more obstruction than a single tube as each is almost behind the one before and the arrangement might impart a bit of a spiral path.  It not only gives more area which is at a premium in fire tube boilers, but the turbulence would give better heat transfer for minimal extra friction.  I wish I could be more definitive, I hope Sandy might hop in with more specifics.  We want your boiler inspector to pass your boiler, so perhaps it would be worth consulting your local inspector for some guidance.

Still amazed by your work, and look for the next report every day. 

MJM460
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 08, 2017, 02:50:47 PM
Hi Chris,

Like others, I am sure the designs I can remember had more cross tubes.  The first one far enough down the tube for the flame to be stable and combustion complete to avoid direct flame impingement, then the others relatively closely spaced, probably determined by the ligament in the main fire tube between the holes.  They are not in a straight line, but along a spiral like a very coarse thread giving perhaps half a turn over the remaining length so you can't see clear through.  However this does not really give more obstruction than a single tube as each is almost behind the one before and the arrangement might impart a bit of a spiral path.  It not only gives more area which is at a premium in fire tube boilers, but the turbulence would give better heat transfer for minimal extra friction.  I wish I could be more definitive, I hope Sandy might hop in with more specifics.  We want your boiler inspector to pass your boiler, so perhaps it would be worth consulting your local inspector for some guidance.

Still amazed by your work, and look for the next report every day. 

MJM460
Makes sense, thanks!


I did the current tubes in a long spiral, can easily add more along that same path.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 09, 2017, 01:35:18 AM
No update today, lots of outside time, tomorrow looks good for sailing.... Pace on build will probably slow down as the weather finally improves...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 10, 2017, 12:24:22 AM
Guys - thanks for the feedback on the cross tubes in the fire tube assembly. I have updated the drawings to put two more between each of the ones I had installed already - makes a nice spiral pattern down the length, and in total all the cross tubes nearly doubles the heatable surface area in the fire tube. Given the shapes and flow patterns, the effective gain will wurely be a bit less, but it should make a marked improvement over just the bare firetube.

And no, I am NOT making two whole boilers to test that!!  :hellno:

I was off sailing most of the day, perfect weather for it, had a great time. The water level in Lake Ontario (the easternmost of the Great Lakes between US and Canada, where all the other lakes drain through on the way to the north Atlantic) is so high that the old decrepit wooden docks that the new marina owners are replacing are under about 6 inches of water. Normally in spring they are three or four feet in the air on posts, five feet by fall! The new ones are all floating ones, hope they learn from this and make the guide posts long enough so they don't float away...  Part of the spits of land nearby were half submerged, and some of the roads around the corner are flooded (as are the houses there). Fortunately they are thinking that the lake levels will drop about 6 inches in the next few weeks - they can't let any more volume through the St Lawrence river, or the rest of Montreal will dissapear.

Anyway, should be able to drill for and install the new cross tubes this weekend.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on June 10, 2017, 12:47:22 AM
Looking forward to seeing this progress. These boilers are still a bit of black magic to me.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 10, 2017, 12:55:37 AM
Looking forward to seeing this progress. These boilers are still a bit of black magic to me.

Bill
More of a coppery colored magic actually....  :Lol:


Just think of them as a tea kettle with a really tight lid.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 10, 2017, 10:44:49 PM
Back in the shop again this afternoon, got most of the main parts for the hand pump body made.

Started by squaring up a length of 1" x 1" brass bar - the pump could be narrower, but I have a long bar of 1" square, don't have much stock in the 5/8" or 3/4" thick, so 1" is it. Then milled in the notch for the top flange, which will take the intermediate lever bar.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/nxlxsqls7/IMG_0511.jpg)
Turned the bar over, milled the recess for the upright part of the base:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/y8yaledhj/IMG_0512.jpg)
Followed by the notch in the lower base to take the lower end of the upright:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9tq2kcekn/IMG_0513.jpg)
To get a good fit for the check valve body, used the four-jaw on the lathe to hold it for drilling
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6be2nydon/IMG_0514.jpg)
and boring out the 7/16" hole:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ofh38lbd3/IMG_0515.jpg)
Here are the parts so far:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/61b5icog7/IMG_0516.jpg)
Just need to drill halfway through the top of the round bar for the outlet fitting, make that fitting, and I'll be ready to start silver soldering the pump body together, as well as the rest of the boiler parts. I need to make up a list of what order to solder things up in, so that I don't solder myself into a corner. I have a couple different alloys of the silver solder, will start with the higher temp solder and do the later parts nearby with the lower temp ('easy') version. Looking to be some really hot days here early in the week, just wonderful for running a torch!  :ShakeHead:   (and Don, I know, I know, for you these days would be like winter!)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on June 11, 2017, 12:52:35 AM
Looking forward to seeing this progress. These boilers are still a bit of black magic to me.

Same for me. Or rather, all boilers. So I enjoy reading people's threads that build them.

And I don't mean Chris. I'm thinking it's his little helpers doing it.  ;D
They do good work. I may have to try and make a better mint chocolate chip cookie recipe and entice some of those helpers to my place.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 11, 2017, 01:12:43 AM
Looking forward to seeing this progress. These boilers are still a bit of black magic to me.

Same for me. Or rather, all boilers. So I enjoy reading people's threads that build them.

And I don't mean Chris. I'm thinking it's his little helpers doing it.  ;D
They do good work. I may have to try and make a better mint chocolate chip cookie recipe and entice some of those helpers to my place.
The elves are really on a roll on this build. Just wish they would let me into the actual shop, and not make me watch from behind the glass partition...   :ROFL:


Just to keep them working, I picked up the ingredients for another batch of cookies yesterday. Have to whomp up another batch this week.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 11, 2017, 05:09:29 PM
More on the hand pump today. The outlet fitting goes into the top of the round post, and I wanted a square bottom hole so that there would be no gap to pull the drill used later to make the through hole in the post, so I used an end mill to make it:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xt01vo8nb/IMG_0517.jpg)
The fitting itself started out as a short bit of brass rod, one end turned to be a press fit in that hole in the post:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/m8v83mzlz/IMG_0518.jpg)
The other end was threaded M7, and drilled for the passage and union end:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xjxvs06h3/IMG_0520.jpg)
and dry fit in the pump:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/orgx4blc7/IMG_0521.jpg)
One other major component made as well, the smokestack. Turned one end to fit the lower rings and opening in the boiler:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wlhippt53/IMG_0522.jpg)
then turned the taper in the outside. It is just a slight taper, just enough to be noticeable. I was surprised when measuring the original how slight it was.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/eqc2v0893/IMG_0523.jpg)
Then drilled a through hole to start the boring bar:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dhssn45on/IMG_0524.jpg)
and bored out to size, here it is almost out to finished dimensions:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/52385m2tj/IMG_0525.jpg)
The bore has a taper to match the outside. After finishing off the bore, and rounding the outer end, here it is test fit on the boiler:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/uwd0ve2tj/IMG_0527.jpg)
The saddle water tank will cover the bottom half of the steam dome, and come forward to just behind the smokestack.

I think I have things ready for silver soldering, but it is quite windy out today, so may wait and see if it dies down this evening...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on June 11, 2017, 10:11:19 PM
Hi Chris,
 I see in the back ground the boiler flue has a few more cross tubes. The smoke stack came out nice...those elves must be selling the brass swarf & hiring in more help!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 11, 2017, 11:09:04 PM
Hi Chris,
 I see in the back ground the boiler flue has a few more cross tubes. The smoke stack came out nice...those elves must be selling the brass swarf & hiring in more help!

Cheers Kerrin
Yeah, they are resourceful!

They, um, I mean, I added in two more tubes between each of the originals, now are 19 of them. Should do the trick!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on June 12, 2017, 01:30:03 AM
Wow, a very productive weekend Chris. Hope the soldering goes just as well once the wind calms down :)

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 12, 2017, 02:05:25 AM
Wow, a very productive weekend Chris. Hope the soldering goes just as well once the wind calms down :)

Bill

Well, the wind is down right now, but it is pretty dark out, and I'd rather not solder by moonlight!   :Lol:

Tomorrow should be better for it, at least in the morning. Today it would have kept blowing out the torch!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 12, 2017, 05:52:09 PM
This morning was good silver soldering weather outside, wind was down and not too hot, so I got the first batch of soldering done on all the subassemblies: bushings into end caps, bushings and top ring on steam dome, first parts on hand pump, and the cross tubes in the fire tube. It is all taking a nice bath in the pickle solution, will put up photos later once they are all cleaned up. For a start, here is how the fire tube was done - clamp at the bottom under the fire bricks, short lengths of silver solder wire wrapped around the ends of each cross tube, some flux brushed on, then all heated from bottom to top. This pic was taken after it was cooling for a while, and the soot/scale formed. The joints all looked like they flowed in well at the time, will see after it is cleaned up. If it looks good then, I'll solder in the end caps with hose fittings so I can do the static pressure test on the fire tube, though that will probably be tonight or tomorrow morning, since the wind is back up into the 30/40mph range, and it is HOT out there today.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/64dwv2f2f/IMG_0530.jpg)
Also, last night I made up the top/bottom caps for the hand pump valve body. Here is the bottom cap, which includes the water pickup opening...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/d6buh9io7/IMG_0529.jpg)


Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 12, 2017, 07:56:16 PM
Okay, after a soak in the pickle solution (am using Sparex 2), and a quick wire brushing in running water, they are all looking quite good.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bh2r972yv/IMG_0531.jpg)
The pump, endcaps, and steam dome all pass close visual inspection, good flow of solder through all the joints. I ran the tap back through the threaded holes in the top of the steam dome to clean the last residue back out, none of them filled with solder, and the joint to the tube looks good.

The fire tube, which has 38 joints in total, has 12 that I want to redo. I've marked them for reflux and resoldering, here is what one looks like - can see the lack of sloder on the one side.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4rw7t6hmv/IMG_0532.jpg)
Given that all were done in one go with the tube vertical, that is better than I had hoped. So, I will have the other end up top and redo those tomorrow - it is way too windy again this afternoon, but good for sitting in the porch in the shade and falling asleep, um, er, I mean reading a book, yeah, thats it!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on June 13, 2017, 05:46:58 AM
Hi Chris,
 Man you've had a busy day! Everything is looking great! Can see why you are sitting on the porch...errr......reading was it?

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 13, 2017, 01:35:41 PM
Hi Chris,
 Man you've had a busy day! Everything is looking great! Can see why you are sitting on the porch...errr......reading was it?

Cheers Kerrin
Zzzzzzzzzzz.... Huh? What??  Oh yeah, reading! Yeah!


Nice calm cloudy morning today, taking the parts out for next round....
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on June 13, 2017, 02:22:24 PM
That's a LOT of soldering Chris!!  What are you using for the pickle bath container?? The bathtub??  :lolb:

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 13, 2017, 03:21:30 PM
That's a LOT of soldering Chris!!  What are you using for the pickle bath container?? The bathtub??  :lolb:

Bill
No, yours!   :lolb:


I have a tall 1 gallon plastic container for smaller parts, and a 5 gallon bucket with a screw lid and seal for big stuff. This boiler is narrow enough to fit into the smaller container till the steam dome goes on. Since its so long I am pickling one end then the other.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 13, 2017, 06:35:06 PM
Nice weather for the next round of silver soldering today - overcast, so easy to see flame and the temperature on the metal. I re-soldered the bad joints on the fire tube, soldered in the end caps with fittings for pressure gauge and hose, and a low-pressure water test looks good. The rest will have to wait another day till the hand pump is done.
The next step on the hand pump is to drill the passages on the vertical tube. The outer ends are drilled/tapped M6. This step is why the vertical tube was left long - needed the extra length to hold in the chuck and still clear the vertical leg (alternate would have been to solder that in later).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/pox1bl51j/IMG_0533.jpg)
Then the inner part of the passage is drilled a smaller size. This leave a seat for the ball bearing check valve.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3saib7ruv/IMG_0534.jpg)
The extra on the vert shaft was cut off,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8gqi6eh1j/IMG_0535.jpg)
and the bottom end drilled/tapped for the water pickup plug, which also forms a seat for the lower check valve.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6aw7bwdl3/IMG_0536.jpg)
With the end held in the four-jaw, the passage for the plunger is drilled through into the vertical passage. Again, the excess length on the body was used to allow the jaws room to clear the vert tube.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/p8gf2w6o7/IMG_0537.jpg)
After the initial drill, the passage was taken out to size with the boring bar.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kes2kaksn/IMG_0538.jpg)
and then the outer end bored out to fit the o-ring retaining collar.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gnihxz747/IMG_0539.jpg)
Final steps on the pump body were to cut off the excess length on the back end, mill that square, then drill for the o-ring collar set screw
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mgx5ca85j/IMG_0541.jpg)
and for the screw that keeps the lower check valve ball bearing from coming up too high
(https://s5.postimg.cc/hr77noh53/IMG_0540.jpg)
and finally solder on the bottom plate for the base, and the top lug that will take the link bar. Here are the parts so far, with a length of bar in place for the plunger. This will get a slot and pivot hole in the outer end.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4cu4rnah3/IMG_0542.jpg)
Good progress for today, more on it tomorrow. Or tonight maybe...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on June 13, 2017, 09:12:56 PM
You paying them Elf's overtime Dog? There sure is a lot if work going on here. Some more impressive stuff Chris. Damn .......I...........like........ :Love:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on June 13, 2017, 09:35:13 PM
You paying them Elf's overtime Dog? There sure is a lot if work going on here. Some more impressive stuff Chris. Damn .......I...........like........ :Love:


 :drinking-41:
Don



X2.   I need Chris send an elf or two my way.

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 13, 2017, 09:58:09 PM
Maybe I'll start a Shop Elf College and Placement Service!    :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on June 13, 2017, 10:36:39 PM
Maybe an exchange program.  I'll send you my part stealing elves in exchange for part generating ones.


-Bob
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 14, 2017, 12:18:22 AM
Maybe an exchange program.  I'll send you my part stealing elves in exchange for part generating ones.


-Bob

Well, for Gnome To Elf rehabilitation services, I will have to charge a LOT extra, to cover the cost of all those mint chip cookies!!  :stir:

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 14, 2017, 12:24:39 AM
Got a bit of time this evening to finish up the hand pump. The link and plunger work was straightforward drilling and milling, one item of note was turning the top of the flat link to take the removeable handle (I am reusing the handle from the Shay pump, which is removeable to allow it to store inside the tender).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/w8r39tl8n/IMG_0543.jpg)
Here is the pump with all the parts assembled.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mplzu3n47/IMG_0545.jpg)
I put in the ball bearings for the check valves, but don't have any stainless steel springs the right size. Even without the spring on the upper ball, a quick test in the sink proves that it will pump water just fine. I need to make a small adapter to go from the top fitting on the pump to the hose to take the water to the boiler - what I have been using for that is a two foot compressor hose that has a ball fitting and shutoff valve on one end, and quick release fittings. Makes a nice static water test hose, flexible enough to work with but can take the pressures needed. I should already have that fitting from the Shay work, just need to find it, or make another one if it got chopped down into something else during the last few projects...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on June 14, 2017, 12:41:22 AM
Still working at light speed I see, but no loss in quality.  Nice looking work Chris. Still following along from the peanut gallery.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 14, 2017, 12:54:23 AM
Still working at light speed I see, but no loss in quality.  Nice looking work Chris. Still following along from the peanut gallery.

Bill

Ooh, peanuts! Pass the bag!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on June 14, 2017, 12:56:27 AM
I'll trade you for come cookies :)

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 14, 2017, 01:07:38 AM
I'll trade you for come cookies :)

Bill
Deal!  Just need to work out the peanut-to-cookie exchange rate...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: steamboatmodel on June 14, 2017, 01:21:07 AM
If your Elves will work for Peanuts and Mint Chocolate Chip Cookies I have both will also offer shortbread. Will put a fan in the south facing window and let the breeze float over Lake Ontario to entice them to Canada.
Regards,
Gerald. 
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 14, 2017, 01:32:26 AM
If your Elves will work for Peanuts and Mint Chocolate Chip Cookies I have both will also offer shortbread. Will put a fan in the south facing window and let the breeze float over Lake Ontario to entice them to Canada.
Regards,
Gerald.
The elves work for chocolate chip cookies, I also like the peanuts!


Hmmm, can already smell the shortbread cookies....! :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 14, 2017, 03:27:17 PM
I got the coupler bits sorted out for the hand pump to hose connection. Turned out the pump punger o ring was not sealing well, so redid that, and and then did a test on the fire tube assembly this morning. Ran it up to 170 psi, closed the shutoff on the hose, no obvious leaks, then dried the outside of the tube carefully, let it sit, and came back every few minutes. All I found was one very slight seep in one of the cross tube ends, everything else is a good seal. So, am heading out to redo that joint, will try it again later. Good start!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/iuwug4p1j/IMG_0548.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/z4n0j0zpj/IMG_0546.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 14, 2017, 07:00:50 PM
Hullo everyone,

This iz Fritz, the Foreman Shop Elf here in Chris's shop. He is off having a long lunch with his freindz, so we Elves had to go out and resolder that one cross tube that he goofed the first time around.... Had to send two of the reindeer (Klutzen and Stumblin - got them cheap from the Big Guy up north at his last garage sale) up for more propane.

Don't let Chris fool yu, WE do all the work around here. If the cookies weren't so good, we'd go find that Zee feller....

Oh, and don't tell Chris we hacked his password to get in here, would you believe the password was 'elves-aint-real'?? The nerve of that guy...

Fritz
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 14, 2017, 09:33:16 PM
After lunch, I got the crosstube resoldered, holds full test pressure for 1/2 hour with no seeps or loss now, very happy with it!


Now I can trim the firetube to length, and start soldering the subassemblies in place. First steam dome and water fill bushing, then front cap and steam and firetubes, last rear cap. The rear cap will be in place when doing the front one to keep​ the tubes aligned.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on June 14, 2017, 10:48:10 PM
After lunch, I got the crosstube resoldered, holds full test pressure for 1/2 hour with no seeps or loss now, very happy with it!

Hmmmm ... He said, she said. I tend to believe the elves :cheers:

Tom
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 14, 2017, 11:52:06 PM
After lunch, I got the crosstube resoldered, holds full test pressure for 1/2 hour with no seeps or loss now, very happy with it!

Hmmmm ... He said, she said. I tend to believe the elves :cheers:

Tom

 :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on June 15, 2017, 12:26:37 AM
This iz Fritz, the Foreman Shop Elf here in Chris's shop.

 :lolb: A good German name. I am not surprised.

What does surprise me...is that Fritz goes for the mint chocolate cookies.

Hey Fritz...I've got Lebkuchen. The real stuff.

And Apfel Strudel! The way Omi made it.
Even better the next day.

;D ;D ;D

T has tried to make it. And she comes close, but you have to have Omi's special ingredient. You all know what I mean.

P.S. A half hour? Is that really enough? I'm asking seriously. How long is enough to test at pressure?


Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 15, 2017, 01:01:25 AM
This iz Fritz, the Foreman Shop Elf here in Chris's shop.

 :lolb: A good German name. I am not surprised.

What does surprise me...is that Fritz goes for the mint chocolate cookies.

Hey Fritz...I've got Lebkuchen. The real stuff.

And Apfel Strudel! The way Omi made it.
Even better the next day.

 ;D ;D ;D

T has tried to make it. And she comes close, but you have to have Omi's special ingredient. You all know what I mean.

P.S. A half hour? Is that really enough? I'm asking seriously. How long is enough to test at pressure?

Not a clue what he said, but Fritz says:

      Lebkuchen! Lecker!

      Schicken Sie etwas davon, zusammen mit den Schokoladenkekse,
      die Sie machen, und wir können Verhandlungen beginnen ...

As for the pressure test, usual for model is to test it at at least 2.5 times the max working pressure, and leave it there for 10 to 15 minutes (standards vary from place to place for pressure and time) to make sure there is no slow leak. Some of the fine seeps can be only a drop or so in a minute, hard to see sometimes. I left it longer since I got distracted, came back in about half an hour, pressure had not dropped, and all was still completely dry on the outside. The connector on the factory made hose I was using actually had a slow leak at one end, so I put that nearer the pump, and used the shutoff valve at the other end to isolate the fire tube.  I didn't have any on this part, but on the Shay there were a couple places initially that had tiny pinholes/air bubbles in the solder joint that threw a super narrow stream of water about a foot out as the pressure came up. Made it REAL easy to find the problem spot!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Jo on June 15, 2017, 08:46:39 AM
As for the pressure test, usual for model is to test it at least 2.5 times the max working pressure, and leave it there for 10 to 15 minutes (standards vary from place to place for pressure and time) to make sure there is no slow leak. Some of the fine seeps can be only a drop or so in a minute, hard to see sometimes.

When you do that test make sure you don't leave the boiler in the sun  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 15, 2017, 12:55:11 PM
As for the pressure test, usual for model is to test it at least 2.5 times the max working pressure, and leave it there for 10 to 15 minutes (standards vary from place to place for pressure and time) to make sure there is no slow leak. Some of the fine seeps can be only a drop or so in a minute, hard to see sometimes.

When you do that test make sure you don't leave the boiler in the sun  ;)

Jo
That's a good point, the extra warmth would raise the pressure beyond what you want. I did mine inside so no problem there.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 15, 2017, 09:47:19 PM
No shop time today, too many lightning storms going by to do soldering outside, but gave me time to get a big batch of mjnt chip cookies made, important now that Zee is trying (vainly) to lure away my shop elf-foreman!   :cussing:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on June 16, 2017, 12:03:48 AM
A great result Chris...no not the cookies though I am sure they are great too...but the fire tube assembly!!  Nice going.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 16, 2017, 12:33:33 AM
A great result Chris...no not the cookies though I am sure they are great too...but the fire tube assembly!!  Nice going.

Bill

Thanks Bill - the first trays have come out very tasty, still some more to go.... mmmmmmmmmm!

 :cheers:

(Hey, we have a popcorn emoji, where is the cookie eating one?!)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 16, 2017, 07:24:25 PM
Back at the silver soldering on the boiler this morning. To start, cut the temporary endcaps off the firetube now that its pressure test is complete. Here is the firetube assembly along with the endcaps and steam tube (to take steam from the throttle in the cab up to the smokebox), in a final test fit .
(https://s5.postimg.cc/r5khtggcn/IMG_0551.jpg)
Soldering the subassemblies into the boiler tube went in the order of: steam dome and fill bushing in first pass, then assembled in the firetube and endcap parts to hold the tubes in proper position, and soldered the front cap first, going around its edge against the boiler shell as well as the joint with the firetube. Then, after that appeared good, turned the shell over and soldered the rear endcap-to-shell joint and the endcap to steam tube and fire tube joints, all in one go.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5545ctxon/IMG_0557.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/m86x8cedj/IMG_0559.jpg)
After cooling, things looked okay, so into the pickle for a soak, then some wire brushing and cleaning. A quick fill with water, and no obvious large leaks, which is a good sign. Here are the parts after cleanup from the soldering:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4ebf71vbb/IMG_0560.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/stjn83u87/IMG_0561.jpg)
Visually, the joints look good, the real test will be the static pressure test. I need to make up plugs for the steam dome bushings, water fill bushing, and the lower sight glass bushing. Well, actually just three of the bushings, the other two will be used for the hose from the hand pump and for the pressure gauge. Also need to make a gasket for the top cap of the steam dome. Then I can do the static testing, and any rework if it turns up any leaks.

All the soldering today went smoothly, I was worried about getting the front cap hot, since it is recessed into the smokebox, but the torch flame reached down in there just fine, the flame was long enough to heat the cap while the torch nozzle was still well back, so it did not blow back and put out the torch. For these parts I used the 'easy' grade of solder, where on the subassemblies I used the 'medium' grade. The easy grade has a slightly lower melting point, so this reduced the risk of remelting a previous joint.

I'll probably make the plugs later today, and see how the initial static test goes - with a lot of luck it won't need any rework, but that will be a first for me for this much length of seam - altogether its almost 2 feet of seams.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 16, 2017, 10:44:28 PM
Got the plugs made, and did an initial test. Looks like the end caps are good, at least at low pressures. The steam dome has a bad leak on one side though, so need to resolder that joint. So far so good though, not unexpected to have at least one leak. The steam dome joint has a couple layers to it with the inner/outer caps, so I am not that surpised. Looking at it from the inside before I added the caps, it looked like a good solder flow all the way around, but its possible that there was a air bubble or flux blob in it somewhere. Back at it tomorrow or Sunday, our local submarine club is meeting at the pond tomorrow to evaluate the weed growth, and figure out a good launch sport for next week's fun run...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 17, 2017, 11:18:56 PM
After meeting everyone at the pond, staring at the incredible weed growth in the water since​ just a few weeks ago, came home and once the sun swung around off the driveway and the wind died down a bit, got the steam dome resoldered. Soaking now, hope it fixed the leak.


As for the pond growth, anyone know a source for cows or sheep that know how to scuba dive, and graze out the weeds??
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on June 18, 2017, 12:56:47 AM
If it's not too deep go fine you a moose and they will clean it right up. Got any moose up your way Chris??

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 18, 2017, 01:22:48 AM
If it's not too deep go fine you a moose and they will clean it right up. Got any moose up your way Chris??

Bill


Moose! Yes!


Darn, no moose around this area. Maybe Brian can mail me one!? They are seen once in a while a few hours east of here, many more up in Maine. Wonder if any zoos would rent them out....
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 18, 2017, 01:25:52 AM
Got the boiler cleaned up, did an initial pressure test. Excellent news is that the steam dome is now leak free, as is the front end cap. There is one fine line leak at the joint between the fire tube and rear end cap. So, at least one more soldering session tomorrow.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on June 18, 2017, 02:07:50 AM
Sound like you are getting all the leaks sorted out well and fixed Chris. That has to be satisfying!! And its looking great too!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 18, 2017, 02:40:07 AM
Sound like you are getting all the leaks sorted out well and fixed Chris. That has to be satisfying!! And its looking great too!!

Bill
I hope it continues, all the joints in a boiler always makes it a nervous bit of work, not like machining parts to fit and being able to run in a gasket or some sealant to take up a gap.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on June 18, 2017, 02:51:08 AM
Hi Chris,
 Sounds like you have cracked it! Well done!

On the lake issue, I know a guy here who has a business that contracts to clean them......just saying..

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 18, 2017, 04:00:06 AM
Hi Chris,
 Sounds like you have cracked it! Well done!

On the lake issue, I know a guy here who has a business that contracts to clean them......just saying..

Cheers Kerrin
Well, the one seam is 'cracked'!    :Lol:


If the pond was a private one, we could do something with it, but its a public park, town won't care to do anything.  :-[
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 18, 2017, 09:44:39 PM
FINALLY got there. Several more go rounds at the silver soldering to get the leaks gone. I think that there might have been some of the hardened flux in one recess that the pickle didn't get rid of, and when the pressure was applied it broke loose and leaked. Got that cleaned out, resoldered, and it is now holding pressure well.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/515qiu2tj/IMG_0570.jpg)
I did have to run the tap back through the holes in the top of the steam dome to get the cap bolts to go in all the way, some of the grit got in the threads during all the soldering work. So, can finally get moving forward on the other parts again!

One thing that occurred to me after I got the last leak solved: I remember reading through the instructions on the PMR vertical boiler (I have the kit, never got around to building it yet), which has a rivetted joint at the top and bottom caps rather than the silver soldering. In that kit, they supply soft solder to run in, just as a sealant, on the top/bottom cap seams to the boiler shell. That brings up a question: On the final pinholes on a boiler like the one I am building, where it holds pressure structurally but there is a small seeping hole in a joint, could the soft solder be used to fix that, like they do in the PMR kit? Too late for this project, but curious if that is an acceptable thing, for the next time. Or is that a bad idea for some reason?

Anyway, while waiting for the boiler to cool after the soldering (which went slow since it was another very hot day outside), I got the heavy bar stock (3/8" thick) cut down to make the inner ring and door for the front end of the smoke box. I had some 3/8" x 3-3/4" flat 303 stainless stock, so cut squares of that, and knocked off the corners to remove the bulk of the material. The blank for the ring (which will be the plate that attaches to the smokebox shell, and holds the hinges and clamps for the outer door) was then bolted to the faceplate, through the inner part that will be cut away.
It was a little too large to swing on the lathe without hitting the bed, so I set it up on the rotary table and milled it mostly round, small enough for the lathe.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ldfs8kh53/IMG_0565.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/qdd8gimrr/IMG_0566.jpg)
Then, over to the lathe, where it was taken down to final diameter, which is slightly larger than the boiler tube since it will have a lip that protrudes out.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/uvfj8m2tj/IMG_0567.jpg)
Next will be to cut in the recess in the back to fit into the boiler tube, and then turn down the taper/flares on the front to match the shape of the original.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on June 19, 2017, 01:28:57 AM
Chris, my understanding is that the PMR solder is NOT good as a substitute for true silver solder. For one thing the melting point is MUCH lower, and I am not sure it would be compatible with the silver solder you are trying to fill small leaks in , even pinhole ones. You are doing the right thing by resoldering the leaks with real silver solder. The PMR stuff is wonderful for non pressurized piping, fuel tanks, etc., but not for pressurizes applications. As I recall the silver content of the PMR solder is on 4%.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 19, 2017, 01:23:59 PM
Chris, my understanding is that the PMR solder is NOT good as a substitute for true silver solder. For one thing the melting point is MUCH lower, and I am not sure it would be compatible with the silver solder you are trying to fill small leaks in , even pinhole ones. You are doing the right thing by resoldering the leaks with real silver solder. The PMR stuff is wonderful for non pressurized piping, fuel tanks, etc., but not for pressurizes applications. As I recall the silver content of the PMR solder is on 4%.

Bill
I know the melting point is lower, and the strength is too, would never use it for anyplace that needed strength - was just wondering if it would be an easier way to fix a pinhole leak, which is what PMR includes it in the kits for, just sealing the rivetted joint.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 19, 2017, 01:29:28 PM
Continuing on with the smokebox door rim - With the outside edge turned down to diameter, the face was profiled to shape, basically it flares out from the rim in an ogee like shape, levelling out where the center door meets it. After turning in that shape freehand, the center was bored out for a depth slightly more than the height of the chuck jaws, so it could be turned around and the bore finished.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/j2rdf922v/IMG_0571.jpg)
With the part turned around on the faceplate, the rim was turned back to form the step that fits inside the boiler tube.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rc7u7el6v/IMG_0575.jpg)
and then the center was bored out to match the diameter done on the front side.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dsmenyhtz/IMG_0576.jpg)
Here is the part test fit on the boiler shell.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mcadzgfk7/IMG_0577.jpg)
On the real engine, this rim would be bolted to the shell, and the center door hinges from this rim. On the model, to get the best access to the smokebox, I am going to use a hidden hinge inside this rim, so that the entire rim and center door unit will open out. That hinge is designed, will show how it works as it is made....
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 19, 2017, 03:18:36 PM
As with the outer rim, the smokebox door started out as a chunk of 3/8" thick bar stock, cut down then milled round on the rotary table. It was mounted on the faceplate with some washers in between so that I could turn it down to size without hitting the faceplate with the tool bit, then the forward face profiled in with  the high point in the center, curving back and out to the rim, and the rim rounded over. Also drilled the center for a 6-32 bolt to hold the number plate on - the number plate is being photo etched by a place in the UK, and will be held on by a turned post.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kn1ardzuv/IMG_0580.jpg)
The part was then removed from the faceplate, and turned around in the 3-jaw to turn the notch in the rim and to take the back face down to thickness. In this photo you can see the shallow tapped holes that were used to bolt the part to the faceplate.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9d8kwfutj/IMG_0582.jpg)
The profile of the front surfaces dont show well in the photos, here is a straightedge on top to show it better:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fcwc03flz/IMG_0584.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/gvrq52m6f/IMG_0585.jpg)
And the parts test fit in place on the boiler:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/k1cbva4sn/IMG_0583.jpg)
Next up is to start making the hold down clamps that keep the door closed, and also the hinges...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 19, 2017, 09:33:17 PM
More work this afternoon on the smokebox door parts. The clamps that hold the door to the rim were made out of a length of bar stock, milled to the width/height needed, then gang drilled for the set of them:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dfzlvioxz/IMG_0586.jpg)
followed by milling the steps in:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dio2w3hzb/IMG_0587.jpg)
and cutting them apart:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/y1iz15vwn/IMG_0588.jpg)
The clamps bolt down to a raised flat pad on the rim. Started with some thin bar stock, and milled a set of notches for them to sit in:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/iilj41nlz/IMG_0589.jpg)
There are only 6 clamp positions, 45 degrees apart. The last couple are left out to leave room for the hinges (I am following the pattern of the original on this).
Next up was to drill holes around the rim, between the flats, which on the real thing would be used to bolt the rim onto the boiler shell. For the model, these are dummy bolts, since the entire assembly will be hinged.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3nwxpve13/IMG_0590.jpg)
Then positioned the rotary table between the clamp flats, and milled in the landings for the hinges:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/sv7tq4h53/IMG_0591.jpg)
and then drilled a hole in each of the hinge flats to hold the hinges in place for silver soldering:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/w5w6q072f/IMG_0592.jpg)
Here are the parts so far. The bits of bar stock for the clamp flats are set in place, and one of the clamps positioned where it will go. The holes for the clamp bolts will be drilled after the flats are soldered in place.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/f43cnws7b/IMG_0593.jpg)
Next up was to mill the flats in the door for the other half of the hinges. These are closer together, since the hinge bars from the doors go between the ones on the rim:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/jopj2ubwn/IMG_0595.jpg)
Also drilled holes to hold the hinge bars for soldering:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/83fcv4qfb/IMG_0596.jpg)
And the parts so far:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bbju86cp3/IMG_0597.jpg)
Next up will be to make the door hinges. Then I can make the hidden hinge that will hold the entire assembly to the boiler shell, and allow it all to swing out for full access into the firebox, which will make it easy to get at the piping and for lighting the burner.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 19, 2017, 09:35:22 PM
Throwing this one back in as its own post, it was buried in a previous post, and was hoping to get more feedback on the idea:

Quote
One thing that occurred to me after I got the last leak solved: I remember reading through the instructions on the PMR vertical boiler (I have the kit, never got around to building it yet), which has a rivetted joint at the top and bottom caps rather than the silver soldering. In that kit, they supply soft solder to run in, just as a sealant, on the top/bottom cap seams to the boiler shell. That brings up a question: On the final pinholes on a boiler like the one I am building, where it holds pressure structurally but there is a small seeping hole in a joint, could the soft solder be used to fix that, like they do in the PMR kit? Too late for this project, but curious if that is an acceptable thing, for the next time. Or is that a bad idea for some reason?
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on June 19, 2017, 10:53:23 PM
Hi Cheris,
 Boy you've been busy! The door is coming on a treat, looking forward to your cunning hinge, like you say getting into smoke boxes to do anything is a mission & the bigger the opening the better!

Now I'm no expert by any means on soldering, & Bill has replied on the strength of the solder you were looking at, so the only other info I've found on using a "soft" solder for boiler making is that it becomes a one way street. Once used you can't use silver solder again as it won't stick, so if the leak gets worse or returns you are stuck with using the soft solder. Although given your talent with silver soldering you should have no problem using silver solder to fix any leaks.....oh yeah that's right you did!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 19, 2017, 11:24:36 PM
Hi Cheris,
 Boy you've been busy! The door is coming on a treat, looking forward to your cunning hinge, like you say getting into smoke boxes to do anything is a mission & the bigger the opening the better!

Now I'm no expert by any means on soldering, & Bill has replied on the strength of the solder you were looking at, so the only other info I've found on using a "soft" solder for boiler making is that it becomes a one way street. Once used you can't use silver solder again as it won't stick, so if the leak gets worse or returns you are stuck with using the soft solder. Although given your talent with silver soldering you should have no problem using silver solder to fix any leaks.....oh yeah that's right you did!

Cheers Kerrin
Thats a good point - heating it up to the silver solder temp would completely melt away any lower temp stuff used for a pinhole patch, requiring that to be done again. And any work in the same place with the high temp solder would need to be cleaned off to bare metal. Thats a good reason to stick with the high temp stuff (stick, solder, get it?   :Lol: ). Oh well, just a thought to save time on a future one. Was hoping for a way to avoid all the extra steps that the silver solder needs, but I guess the right way is the right way!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 20, 2017, 09:58:11 PM
A little more done on the smokebox door assembly today - got all the clamp bases and hinge blanks silver soldered in place, then after a soak in some vinegar to clean off the flux came back and set up to mill off the front side of the door hinge:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8tpphxz9j/IMG_0598.jpg)
Here are the hinges after milling the one end, and a touch on the belt sander:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tf4h9uguf/IMG_0602.jpg)
The parts so far, ready to cross drill for the hinge pin, then mill the back ends of the hinge straps to shape:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/piw7az26f/IMG_0603.jpg)
After the hinges are done, will drill/tap for the door clamps, then can start on the inner hinge assembly.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on June 20, 2017, 11:23:15 PM
Knock, knock, knocking on Heaven's door  8)

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: steamboatmodel on June 20, 2017, 11:24:29 PM
Steamer 5 has it right, once you add the soft solder the silver solder will not stick. I think that the PMR solder is probably Stay-Brite which is 4% silver. Great stuff but not for boilers.
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 20, 2017, 11:36:25 PM
Thanks guys!


 
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on June 21, 2017, 01:20:12 AM
Looking good Dog!


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 21, 2017, 01:49:52 AM
Looking good Dog!


 :cheers:
Don

Yup - that bit of work was rewarded with some chocolate chip cookies!!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 21, 2017, 05:39:35 PM
Continuing on with the smokebox door assembly, this morning I got the hinge straps drilled for the hinge pin. I had to clamp it down at the bottom of the door, since any higher up it got on the tapered portion and that rocked the door back out of vertical.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/r0que0lon/IMG_0604.jpg)
Then went around and drilled/tapped the holes for the door clamps,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/k1csenlqf/IMG_0605.jpg)
and milled off the excess from the hinge posts:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/uye43f8hz/IMG_0606.jpg)
which were then rounded off with the sanding belt. Also threaded the ends of the hinge pin and put that in place. Here is a photo with the door clamps in as well. Still need to make the nuts for the ends of the hinge pin, and the studs/nuts for around the edge of the rim (which would hold the rim on the boiler on the real engine). These nuts will be a first for me, since they are square rather than hex. Should have those parts made later today, after some time out on the porch read/napping...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/b520apv47/IMG_0608.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on June 21, 2017, 06:03:59 PM
Looking good Chris. 

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 21, 2017, 07:37:29 PM
Thanks Bob!

One other item arrived in the mail today - as you may recall that I mentioned a while back, I obtained a set of full sized plans for a Stanley Steamer automobile engine. On the DMC website in Germany, while looking up a cam-valved engine that another thread had shown, I saw that they also had a set of plans for a model of a 1906 Stanley automobile (the whole car, not just the engine). So, these go on the future-project pile, a larger scale model of the engine, with a smaller working model of the whole car. Fun stuff....

I've also been tracking down the measurements/plans to the Marion 90 steam shovel that is resting near a quarry in the next town over - apparently the historical society has a set of measurements and cad drawings that someone did a while back, they just need to find them!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 21, 2017, 09:30:46 PM
And finishing up the front of the smokebox door.... Got the square nuts made for the hinge pin and the mounting studs, and installed them. Here is the door so far:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/l6bfxrxl3/IMG_0609.jpg)
and test fit on the boiler:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/jfsewag1z/IMG_0611.jpg)
The round builders plate post for the center of the door will be made when the etched plates arrive, probably in a few weeks. So, next up will be the inner hinge to allow the entire unit to swing out for better access into the smokebox.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on June 21, 2017, 11:38:12 PM
Hi Chris,
 Ooooohhhh Stanley steam car plans..... :P my club had a motor set up in our display shed. Many years back it was decided to put it into a (well I think it was) 2/3rds size Atkinson steam truck. It was fun to drive, the burner wasn't up to the task of keeping the boiler pressure up, so we had to stop for pressure ups, but hay it was part of the fun. The club sold it some years ago, mores the pity, latest news is it is now localish again. The guy has convert d it from LPG fired to wood pellets & from all accounts it now runs better!

The door looks great! Now on the chimney front.....I think I've found the article on making it from solid, cast iron 2 1/2 dia & just under 5 inch long,  most of it ending up on the garden! Most of the external was done via the mill for the smokbox curve & the rest on the lathe, EXCEPT for the bottom edge which follows the radius of the smoke box! The gent uses his rotary table set vertical to hold the chimney & attracts it with a flapper disc in the angle grinder & a new 1/2 round file! So sorry not a machining solution, although I'm sure I've read of one but then  :old: is creeping up!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: steam guy willy on June 21, 2017, 11:49:35 PM
Does the pressure test have to be done at sea level or do i need to rethink my thermodynamics knowledge ?? This is a genuine query actually ??
good progress .... the Beeleigh is all square headed nuts and bolts !!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 22, 2017, 12:04:04 AM
Hi Chris,
 Ooooohhhh Stanley steam car plans..... :P my club had a motor set up in our display shed. Many years back it was decided to put it into a (well I think it was) 2/3rds size Atkinson steam truck. It was fun to drive, the burner wasn't up to the task of keeping the boiler pressure up, so we had to stop for pressure ups, but hay it was part of the fun. The club sold it some years ago, mores the pity, latest news is it is now localish again. The guy has convert d it from LPG fired to wood pellets & from all accounts it now runs better!

The door looks great! Now on the chimney front.....I think I've found the article on making it from solid, cast iron 2 1/2 dia & just under 5 inch long,  most of it ending up on the garden! Most of the external was done via the mill for the smokbox curve & the rest on the lathe, EXCEPT for the bottom edge which follows the radius of the smoke box! The gent uses his rotary table set vertical to hold the chimney & attracts it with a flapper disc in the angle grinder & a new 1/2 round file! So sorry not a machining solution, although I'm sure I've read of one but then  :old: is creeping up!

Cheers Kerrin
That car sounds like it was a lot of fun!

The solution on the stack flange sounds like basically the same way I attacked it, grinder vs sander.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 22, 2017, 12:07:59 AM
Does the pressure test have to be done at sea level or do i need to rethink my thermodynamics knowledge ?? This is a genuine query actually ??
good progress .... the Beeleigh is all square headed nuts and bolts !!
I hope not, I am about 500 feet up above sea level. I ran the pressure up higher than needed anyway, so should be more to the safe side! I would think that the pressure change from a storm going by would change the results that much anyway. Sounds like a good question for the Thermodynamics thread (all good stuff over there, but it reminds me too much of my time reading/writing patents at work, so I tune out quite quickly - perogative of the retired! ).

This is actually the first time I have made square nuts, nothing special about it, I just dont have a lot of sizes in square stock like I do in hex stock. So, nothing four passes on the mill won't cure...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: MJM460 on June 22, 2017, 01:07:56 AM
Ok, ok, I will try and answer it. 

Pressure testing is not about thermodynamics, it is about the strength of the vessel to contain the pressure.  Material is stressed by the difference in pressure inside and outside, and a pressure gauge measures the difference between the pressure inside and outside (that's why it's called gauge pressure) which is just what you need to prove the strength of your boiler.

So it does not matter whether you test your boiler at sea level or at 29,000 ft.  Though it is probably not practical to haul your test setup over about 12,00 ft.  So even in Denver you are ok!  I will go a bit deeper into it when I get to talking about boilers.

 Talking about going deeper, you can even go underwater so long as you safely address the issues of how you will breath while you watch the test, and as long as your gauge is measuring the difference between the pressure inside the boiler and outside the boiler.

Sorry you have to tune out on thermodynamics Chris, it was even kicked off by questions on your build thread, which is truly amazing, by the way.  Every day you leave me wide eyed at what you have done.

But any suggestions to make the thermodynamics more interesting to you are welcome.   And if you only join in when a topic is particularly relevant to you, that is ok too.

MJM460
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on June 22, 2017, 01:29:01 AM
 Hi Chris,
 Here's a link to the club newsletter, not from our web page

http://csmee.org.nz/resources/Newsletters/June%202014%20From%20the%20Engine%20Shed.pdf

Page 8 has some pictures of the truck, including one of the engine.

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 22, 2017, 01:48:45 AM
Ok, ok, I will try and answer it. 

Pressure testing is not about thermodynamics, it is about the strength of the vessel to contain the pressure.  Material is stressed by the difference in pressure inside and outside, and a pressure gauge measures the difference between the pressure inside and outside (that's why it's called gauge pressure) which is just what you need to prove the strength of your boiler.

So it does not matter whether you test your boiler at sea level or at 29,000 ft.  Though it is probably not practical to haul your test setup over about 12,00 ft.  So even in Denver you are ok!  I will go a bit deeper into it when I get to talking about boilers.

 Talking about going deeper, you can even go underwater so long as you safely address the issues of how you will breath while you watch the test, and as long as your gauge is measuring the difference between the pressure inside the boiler and outside the boiler.

Sorry you have to tune out on thermodynamics Chris, it was even kicked off by questions on your build thread, which is truly amazing, by the way.  Every day you leave me wide eyed at what you have done.

But any suggestions to make the thermodynamics more interesting to you are welcome.   And if you only join in when a topic is particularly relevant to you, that is ok too.

MJM460
Its all good stuff, I think it just gives me flashbacks to interminable technical meetings at our research labs, and I have an urge to go boating instead!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 22, 2017, 01:50:34 AM
Hi Chris,
 Here's a link to the club newsletter, not from our web page

http://csmee.org.nz/resources/Newsletters/June%202014%20From%20the%20Engine%20Shed.pdf (http://csmee.org.nz/resources/Newsletters/June%202014%20From%20the%20Engine%20Shed.pdf)

Page 8 has some pictures of the truck, including one of the engine.

Cheers Kerrin
Thats a wonderful truck! Be great for running up to the hardware store fir more model parts.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: MJM460 on June 22, 2017, 07:25:51 AM
Hi Chris,

I know what you mean about those meetings.  Much more fun to be out in the field for construction, or better yet, commissioning.

MJM460
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on June 22, 2017, 01:03:57 PM
Chris, the door is looking great. I love the old square nuts: when we used to find those on old farm equipment we would have to get tools out of Granddaddy's tool box 8). I thought the non contact side has a bit of a chamfer on them like this one though :thinking:

http://ancientpoint.com/imgs/a/j/s/n/d/58___11__x_1__square_head_machine_bolts_with_nuts_plain_steel_made_in_usa_qty___12_1_lgw.jpg
 Still  :popcorn: and following along.

Eric
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 22, 2017, 02:48:56 PM
Chris, the door is looking great. I love the old square nuts: when we used to find those on old farm equipment we would have to get tools out of Granddaddy's tool box 8) . I thought the non contact side has a bit of a chamfer on them like this one though :thinking:

http://ancientpoint.com/imgs/a/j/s/n/d/58___11__x_1__square_head_machine_bolts_with_nuts_plain_steel_made_in_usa_qty___12_1_lgw.jpg (http://ancientpoint.com/imgs/a/j/s/n/d/58___11__x_1__square_head_machine_bolts_with_nuts_plain_steel_made_in_usa_qty___12_1_lgw.jpg)
 Still  :popcorn: and following along.

Eric
The nuts on the door do have some chamfer filed in as they were filed off, too small to see in the pictures though.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on June 22, 2017, 02:54:25 PM
Thought that might be the case :ThumbsUp:

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 23, 2017, 05:11:24 PM
The door hinges are done - most is made of some square bar stock, just the one piece that fits against the inside of the boiler shell had to be rounded on one side, using the rotary table on the mill.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6rgyeykef/IMG_0612.jpg)
Here are the end parts, one that is bolted to the door, the other that bolts to the boiler:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5qgppu3ev/IMG_0613.jpg)
and in place with the horizontal members. Both ends can pivot, so the door can swing out then around to the side. This position is important, since it both gives the most access to the smoke box, and also will clear the angled support member that comes up from the front of the frame to the end of the smokebox.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9bcl927yf/IMG_0617.jpg)
And finally, the door swung closed:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/yvevfhtc7/IMG_0616.jpg)
All moves and fits well, so time to move on to the rest of the fittings and piping on the boiler...

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Dreeves on June 23, 2017, 08:08:20 PM
Chris, Very cool setup. I look forward to getting new up dates. keep up the good work

Dave
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on June 23, 2017, 09:27:06 PM
Dog that is just to cool man. Did I say ....I........like........ :Love:



 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 23, 2017, 11:27:11 PM
Thanks guys! Nice to have you along for the ride!

Now that the door has been shut on the smokebox, time to elbow in some room for the plumbing...

There are five elbows and one tee needed for the piping from the front of the boiler to the cylinders. They started out as some brass rod stock, long enough to make them all, with the end flanges left proud of the rest, which was taken down to 1/4" diameter. Each section was turned, then the stock moved out for the next section.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/cfwfxc3if/IMG_0618.jpg)
Then the bar was taken over to the mill, leveled up in the vise, and a 1/4" end mill used to plunge cut halfway through the bar at each intersection.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/cwhnjrr9j/IMG_0619.jpg)
Next, a section of another bar was turned down to be a tight fit in each of the holes just milled, then parted off to form the other half of the elbow:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/hh3typayv/IMG_0620.jpg)
Here all the sections were press fit into the holes, ready for a ring of silver solder around each one:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/pszkzy8cn/IMG_0621.jpg)
After soldering and cleaning them up again, the group of parts was back in the vise, and I drilled the bore down to the center of the elbow, with careful measuring and turn counting to make sure the depth was right, and counter drilled the flange to fit the tubing:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/nadvz9mmf/IMG_0622.jpg)
At this point, the parts were all cut apart next to the flanges, and the holes drilled/counterdrilled in the second side, with some careful measuring again to make sure I didn't go too deep.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/elqqru6yv/IMG_0623.jpg)
Here are the parts so far, all soldered up, and drilled.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/lssfnphvr/IMG_0624.jpg)
Next, up to the belt sander to take the cut end down flush to the side, and rounded off to finish the parts:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kf0sseimf/IMG_0626.jpg)
Next step will be to cut all the pipes to length, and solder them in place in the flanges. The joints to the Tee section inside the smokebox will have union fittings next to them, so that everything can be assembled through the smokebox holes. Also, a union fitting will go on the top pipe where it joins the steam pipe coming out of the boiler (which will connect to the throttle on the back of the boiler).
The exhaust fittings will need another elbow and a tee, but the tee is a curved one, not sure how to best make that one yet. Here is a picture of the real thing:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/r4x40wszr/DSC_2846.jpg)
Have to think on that one a bit...

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on June 23, 2017, 11:52:35 PM
Hi Chris,
 Now that smoke box door hinge is just slick! Is the door still a nice push fit?....thinking of keeping the smoke box under vacuum? I guess it comes out the first part straight then pivots?
Hope the elves know not to try opening it when they are out & about or the driver is going to have a problem!

The elbows & tee came out very nice....put that on the growing list of things to remember

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 24, 2017, 12:31:25 AM
Yup, the door rim edge is a loose-ish fit, but has to come straight out about 1/16" before pivoting to the side. The edges are slightly tapered so it is easy enough to move but stays in place. I may need to tweak that if it sticks when the burner is going. Hope the elves don't use it as a pizza oven! It was interesting on the real engine that the builder plate in the middle of the door was warm but touchable when driving, good since your back touches it on bumps.


The method of making the elbows is not mine, another thing learned from kozo's books. Works great, quicker and cheaper than buying the castings.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on June 24, 2017, 12:43:34 AM
Another productive week obviously from your shop Chris. The smokebox door looks fantastic, that is a very slick way of doing it.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 24, 2017, 01:13:53 AM
Another productive week obviously from your shop Chris. The smokebox door looks fantastic, that is a very slick way of doing it.

Bill
Thanks Bill, I don't remember where I first saw that kind of hinge, door on a  autoclave or pressure chamber maybe? Simple and completely hidden.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on June 24, 2017, 01:25:28 AM
That's slicker then a minnow Chris, it just keeps getting better Dog....... :praise2:


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on June 26, 2017, 02:05:46 AM
 :whoohoo: Chris,

As Leghorn Foghorn used to say at...." Boy I say boy, I found it, I found it!"

Finally going back thru enuff ME magazines, I found the article on machining the chimney base!

It's in Model Engineer No 4422 January 2012.

Cheers Kerrin


Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 26, 2017, 02:19:17 AM
:whoohoo: Chris,

As Leghorn Foghorn used to say at...." Boy I say boy, I found it, I found it!"

Finally going back thru enuff ME magazines, I found the article on machining the chimney base!

It's in Model Engineer No 4422 January 2012.

Cheers Kerrin
Hmmm... That must make you Barnyard Dawg...!

I didn't get much shop time today, was out doing other stuff, but did get over to the next town (LeRoy) and get a whole bunch of photos of the Marion 91 steam shovel that is parked in the field across from the quarry there - supposed to be the only remaining model 91, the same type as was used on the Panama Canal, though they don't know if this one was there or not. It has the later modification to convert from a railway carriage mount to the crawler tracks, that was done about 1923. The historical society has found the disc with the cad drawings on it, working out with them to get a copy...
Here is a picture of it, I took lots of detail shots all along it, from a bunch of angles. The field is fenced off so I could not get right up to it or to the far side though. Going in the future projects file....
(https://s5.postimg.cc/x4kv4kds7/DSC_4660.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on June 26, 2017, 02:45:00 AM
Hi Chris,

Hehehee!

See attached for the setup. He does comment that using the slitting saw like this WITHOUT taking lite cuts could be a bit hard on the saw & that a side & face cutter would be better. His set up using a 2" slot drill  he says is best avoided at all costs!
Yep I guess there's a bit of finishing off to do! Mind you using flapper sanding drum of the same dia I think would clean it up reasonably quick using the same setup.

Cheers Kerrin

It looks like in my excitement I forgot to attach the picture!, so here it is!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: kvom on June 26, 2017, 12:29:44 PM
That curved T might need to be printed.  Perhaps a Shapeways job?

I presume the door hinge was checked against interference with the blast nozzle.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 26, 2017, 02:24:53 PM
That curved T might need to be printed.  Perhaps a Shapeways job?

I presume the door hinge was checked against interference with the blast nozzle.
Could a printed part withstand the hot oily steam exhaust? It would have to be the right material.


I was thinking about making it in an upper and lower half, milling the channel with a ball end mill, soldering the two halves together, then shaping the outside down. A bit tricky, but that pipe is very visible in the final model, want to get the right look.


The hinge only intrudes 3/8" in to the smokebox, the stack outer diameter starts more than that back in, so plenty of clearance for the exhaust tube and chuffer. The chuffer is ordered, and just got word that the front plate for the door has shipped, pics when those arrive.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: kvom on June 26, 2017, 03:37:05 PM
They print the part in wax and cast it in the material you choose.  Cost is per cubic cm, so you can design and upload an STL for free to get a quote.

Two 90-degree el fittings machine in the center of the output and soldered might work as well.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 26, 2017, 04:52:14 PM
They print the part in wax and cast it in the material you choose.  Cost is per cubic cm, so you can design and upload an STL for free to get a quote.

Two 90-degree el fittings machine in the center of the output and soldered might work as well.
Ooh, interesting, didn't know that was an option. Do you think they could cast it with a core so the curved sections would be hollow? That is the key for this part.

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 26, 2017, 05:41:30 PM
This morning I got the first sections of the piping fitted from the boiler down to the engines. At this point, realized that I need to drill the mount holes for the front boiler support cradle and make the strap over the firebox to lock the boiler down before I can do the final pipe section. So, that is next then finish the pipes. The angle looks odd in this picture, since the pipe was not screwed all the way in, and the elbow's weight is tipping it forward. It will get some sealant in the threads when it is tightened up for good.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4gnzvfsg7/IMG_0630.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Dan Rowe on June 26, 2017, 05:42:24 PM
Chris,
They use a 3D printer to print the part and it can be hollow, you have to obey the thickness rules for the material. The wax is then investment cast which also works with hollow parts as the investment will fill the void. The bronze is 90% copper 10% tin so that is my usual choice. I have had casting numbers put on 7/8" Shay truck boxes and it looks great.

Dan
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 26, 2017, 05:49:45 PM
Chris,
They use a 3D printer to print the part and it can be hollow, you have to obey the thickness rules for the material. The wax is then investment cast which also works with hollow parts as the investment will fill the void. The bronze is 90% copper 10% tin so that is my usual choice. I have had casting numbers put on 7/8" Shay truck boxes and it looks great.

Dan
Interesting. Just went and looked at their web site, looks like this fitting could be made quite easily there. I would prefer to be able to make it myself, so will try it first, but it looks like a great backup. Going to keep them in mind for future stuff - thanks!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 26, 2017, 11:04:55 PM
I got the boiler shell bolted down to the front support frame, and added a strap over the back end to the firebox shell, which will be hidden by the cab. Also made up the angle braces that run from the front of the boiler down to the front of the frame. They were made with a little blacksmith elf from a bit of thin rod stock, heated up and hammered flat at the ends, then heated again and the bends put in.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/yf3tatupz/IMG_0632.jpg)
Then the ends were drilled for the bolts, and rounded off on the belt sander. These supports were part of the reason for the long hidden hinge, the door assembly has to swing out and away enough to clear the left side one.

Here are a couple of family shots of everything so far. The piping to the cylinders is done too. I ran some air in through the backhead fitting to the steam pipe, and it ran the engine, though there was one leak at the right lower elbow. That has been re-sealed, should be able to post a video of it later or tomorrow morning.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/x2m48xxaf/IMG_0634.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/c4fyauxfr/IMG_0638.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 26, 2017, 11:56:27 PM
And for those who don't believe it without pictures and/or video, here is the new steam piping after fixing the one leak, running on compressed air. The air was connected to the steam tube on the backhead, which will take the output of the throttle valve (once that is made), runs down the inside of the boiler at the top to the steam box, then tees out to each cylinder from the sides of the smokebox. On this run, I was using the regulator on the compressor, which is a very coarse valve, hard to control, so it starts way too fast then I was able to throttle it back down a bit. It runs much smoother with the needle valve in the line. All looks good so far, so on to the exhaust piping...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkNJhuTFvFM
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: gbritnell on June 27, 2017, 12:13:46 PM
Hi Chris.
I have been following along since day one of the build. I have picked up so many tips and machining setups along the way. A very unique and outstanding build.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on June 27, 2017, 12:19:55 PM
Outstanding Chris!! Thank for the video too😊

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 27, 2017, 01:43:20 PM
Hi Chris.
I have been following along since day one of the build. I have picked up so many tips and machining setups along the way. A very unique and outstanding build.
gbritnell
Great to have you along on the build. Next part, the exhaust manifold, should be an interesting one too, think I know how it will be done as a two piece shell.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Johnmcc69 on June 27, 2017, 04:18:57 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Oh man Chris, this thing is really looking the part! I can't wait to see it running on steam!
 Fantastic work!

 John
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: fumopuc on June 27, 2017, 05:55:59 PM
Hi Chris thanks for the new video. Always a pleasure to see the progress.

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: kvom on June 27, 2017, 06:19:54 PM
As an exercise in Solidworks, I modeled the T.  I uploaded it to Shapeways, and the cost to cast it in either bronze or brass is $14.  As modeled, I set the wall thickness to .015", which they gave a warning about.  Should be about .025" minimum.  The tubes are .25" diameter so that could be adjusted to fit the scale.

I also submitted a half section thinking that two could be soldered together, but the price each was the same.

It would probably  not cost much to add the three flanges and save that part of the job.

Not sure how it would be done in Inventor, but in SW it's 2 sweeps and 2 sweep cuts.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 27, 2017, 06:42:23 PM
As an exercise in Solidworks, I modeled the T.  I uploaded it to Shapeways, and the cost to cast it in either bronze or brass is $14.  As modeled, I set the wall thickness to .015", which they gave a warning about.  Should be about .025" minimum.  The tubes are .25" diameter so that could be adjusted to fit the scale.

I also submitted a half section thinking that two could be soldered together, but the price each was the same.

It would probably  not cost much to add the three flanges and save that part of the job.

Not sure how it would be done in Inventor, but in SW it's 2 sweeps and 2 sweep cuts.
Very slick! If the home built one fails, will give them a try. Imagine submitting the entire model... Instant kit! Very interesting to have a service like that. Opens up all sorts of things...


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 27, 2017, 06:43:25 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Oh man Chris, this thing is really looking the part! I can't wait to see it running on steam!
 Fantastic work!

 John
Should be going on steam sometime in July...!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 28, 2017, 02:02:10 AM
No shop time today, but this evening I got the exhaust pipe fittings modelled up in 3D:

(https://s5.postimg.cc/vvv5dfq2v/Exhaust_Fittings_v4.jpg)
All pretty simple, except for the Y fitting. I think I am going to make that in top/bottom halves milled into bar stock, silver solder together, then sand/file the outside to shape. At least thats the hope...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: kvom on June 28, 2017, 03:59:15 AM
How about milling two 90 degree bends down the join line?
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Admiral_dk on June 28, 2017, 11:55:54 AM
It's probably you and your shop Elves that has my expectations up to an almost unrealistic level regarding this project, why I haven't mentioned it before now - but I think a simple jig in the rotary table with a few location pins should allow you to mill the internal out of that curved Y - or more correctly the "lower half". Move the piece to a new place on the same pins and do the other arc - now you got the exhaust "channels". Flip the part so that you are having the inners just milled facing down and mill the outside - first with an endmill and finally with a curved wood router. Make one more and solder them together.

You should now have an almost finished curved Y "adapter" - just missing a bit of hand filing to get into those places where the router couldn't reach.

I hope that I make myself clear.

Best wishes

Per
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: ChuckKey on June 28, 2017, 02:23:21 PM
If you are going to the trouble of making a swept tee, shouldn't the elbow be swept too? (Actually the velocities and losses in scale pipes are quite small, and a plain tee would probably make a difference it would be hard to measure.)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 28, 2017, 02:24:18 PM
Admiral-dk/Kvom, I think both of you have re-described what I am planning - milling the curved channel into the face of two pieces flat stock with a ball end mill, soldering those two together, and shaping the outside down. That is what I already described in the post with the drawing....
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 28, 2017, 02:27:43 PM
If you are going to the trouble of making a swept tee, shouldn't the elbow be swept too? (Actually the velocities and losses in scale pipes are quite small, and a plain tee would probably make a difference it would be hard to measure.)
You are right, the elbow on the original engine is swept, but it is a very tight  curve.  At he scale size it could be made to look the same on the outside with just some sanding on the back corner. I'll see how the big one goes first!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on June 28, 2017, 03:27:52 PM
Looking forward to seeing how you do this bit Chris. Will be easier to follow with pictures.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 28, 2017, 04:37:00 PM
Looking forward to seeing how you do this bit Chris. Will be easier to follow with pictures.

Bill


I just finished milling the two sides and have them bolted together for soldering, will post pics after lunch....
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on June 28, 2017, 07:59:33 PM
Damn Chris that is one bad ass Machine Dog! You just keep making this thing look more and more attractive and unique. Fantastic craftsmanship bud and ........I .........like.......... :Love:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 28, 2017, 09:23:43 PM
Damn Chris that is one bad ass Machine Dog! You just keep making this thing look more and more attractive and unique. Fantastic craftsmanship bud and ........I .........like.......... :Love:


 :drinking-41:
Don

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 28, 2017, 09:35:16 PM
More done this afternoon, here is how I am proceeding with the exhaust pipe fitting:
Started out with a bit of hex stock, drilled/tapped the center on the lathe for a bolt,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6y07m2taf/IMG_0645.jpg)
and an offset one on the mill for another bolt to act as an anti-rotation pin. Drilled matching holes in the bar stock, double the center radius of the pipe apart.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ak60ypznr/IMG_0646.jpg)
With the bar stock secured at one corner, moved out the radius of the pipe center, and milled a groove with a 3/16" ball end mill on one side, finishing off at the ends with a straight out cut to form the end where the pipes will connect.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/naa9bt7lz/IMG_0647.jpg)
Swapped the bolts to the other corner, and made a matching cut. The two grooves share a common end.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ay7cybjrb/IMG_0648.jpg)
Then made the same cuts in the second plate, and then moved out on one plate to cut away the excess. The other plate was left full for now.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/molafpcjr/IMG_0650.jpg)
Also made a shallow groove on the one plate on the inside radius, and punched through in a few sections. The reason in a couple pics. Here are the parts so far:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gnsnfqw93/IMG_0652.jpg)
and then they were bolted together for silver soldering. The next picture shows the parts after soldering, and with the bolt heads (now silver soldered in place by the wicked in solder) cut off. The reason for leaving the one plate full should be apparent - needed a place to set the silver solder wire and flux in place while heating. The one side open and the slots on the other side of the finished part made nice little ledges to put the solder, and as it melted in flowed into the joints.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/h5nsvlltz/IMG_0654.jpg)
Next, back on the mill to run the cuts on either side of the part through the rest of the way. The metal at the very end of the slots was left uncut on the mill, and were taken out the rest of the way with a saw, did not want the loose part to catch on the cutter.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xplhhub47/IMG_0655.jpg)
Here are the parts seperated, and ready to take a tip from SteamGuyWilly and get out the files and sander to round them over and form the flanges. Working on brass, should be fairly quick to do. I may use a sanding drum on a rotary tool to do the bulk of it (with a cup of water handy to dunk it in to keep it cool).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kb8elt4g7/IMG_0656.jpg)
More pics later after shaping the outside...


Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 29, 2017, 12:21:46 AM
Finishing up on the exhaust Y connector: I took the roughted out part to the rotary too with a 1/2" coarse sanding drum on it, and rounded off all the corners and got it closer to the final shape, still a bit rough:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/k2atvvrnr/IMG_0657.jpg)
Then, got out the small files and went to work on it, smoothing off the bumps, getting a better round shape, and defining the flanges a bit more:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3q0s65dc7/IMG_0659.jpg)
Then, into the vibratory tumbler with the ceramic media (same as was used on the track plates so many months ago) to smooth it out some more, and give a better surface texture:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/l5uy7ucav/IMG_0660.jpg)
And here it is with some bits of pipe in place to show how it will come together - these pipes are not to proper length, just some ones that were in the offcut pile:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4jddyrjd3/IMG_0661.jpg)
The two pipes opposite each other will go over to the exhaust ports on the cylinders, and the single pipe will go to the elbow at the bottom of the smokebox, taking the exhaust up to the stack. Inside the smokebox/stack it will have a Summerlands chuffer on it for better sound - I sent them the measurements of the stack and box, they picked out the right chuffer for that size. Should have it in the next week or so.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on June 29, 2017, 12:36:43 AM
Most excellent Chris. Now that I can see it, it makes a lot more sense to me. Well done!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: kvom on June 29, 2017, 01:55:45 AM
Actually that's not what I suggested.  My idea was to take a piece of regular tube bent at a 90 degree angle or else a regular cast el.  Then machine a flat down the center of one leg.  Repeat and solder the two together.

Your way worked out well, but possibly more work.  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 29, 2017, 01:58:41 AM
Actually that's not what I suggested.  My idea was to take a piece of regular tube bent at a 90 degree angle or else a regular cast el.  Then machine a flat down the center of one leg.  Repeat and solder the two together.
Gotcha - I misunderstood about what you said about the join line, sorry!  :Doh:

That way could work too, probably could use a thicker drilled piece at the end of the join to hold them together for soldering, and also form the end flange.

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on June 29, 2017, 04:24:11 PM
Either way it sure looks the part Chris!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 30, 2017, 05:18:24 PM
I made up the pipes for the exhaust (two tries, first set were too short) and got them installed, used some loctite red to hold them in position from the cylinders - the elbow is threaded so I can adjust that length and also remove the vertical pipe for the chuffer install.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/68hvt39on/IMG_0663.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/nn241d6tj/IMG_0664.jpg)

I think the next step will be to design up the fittings for the steam dome (steam take-off, whistle, safety valve) as well as design the water saddle tank - going to work my way back to the cab area. The burner and tank assembly will need the cab designed, so I can determine how they will be anchored.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 30, 2017, 08:38:39 PM
I got the saddle tank designed up in 3D this afternoon - still need to add the ladder that goes over the back of it.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8pyoxgzwn/Saddle_Tank_v6.jpg)
and how it will look on the rest of the hauler:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/limsxebif/Complete_Hauler_v54.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 01, 2017, 07:52:31 PM
The nameplates for the front of the boiler arrived today from Narrow Planet, they look fantastic! Now I can get the holder made, and mount one to the front of the boiler. I had made up the artwork for them, using my photos of the real one as a guide, and they used that to etch from. The plate is 0.020" thick, I will make a holder from thicker material, and crimp the edge in to hold it.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8kve769jb/IMG_0665.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 01, 2017, 10:46:52 PM
Just had to make up the nameplate holder for the front of the boiler. Started with a bit of 303 steel rod, and turned in the shape of the back of the holder, and drilled/tapped for a 6-32 bolt.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/80gd4hgav/IMG_0666.jpg)
Then parted off, turned the part around, and faced the part to thickness.  The outside diameter of the holder was turned to .020 larger than the plate, so the walls are .010 thick.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/z0u5t24lj/IMG_0667.jpg)
Then, used the center hole as a spot to start the boring bar to relieve the face back by .030, and out to the diameter of the plate.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/k65kevv0n/IMG_0668.jpg)
Then, slipped the plate into place and used a smooth steel rod to burnish over the edge, rolling it inwards to lock the plate in place just like a stone in a ring.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/x7r94qjev/IMG_0669.jpg)
Here is the plate in place on the boiler.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tfcc2qtaf/IMG_0677.jpg)
Very nice, all ready for some paint!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: samc88 on July 02, 2017, 12:34:10 AM
Looking great! It'll be interesting to see the saddle tank getting made
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 03, 2017, 01:30:00 AM
Between some 3D rendering time, outside time and other activities this weekend, I've been doing some experiments on the saddle tank for the hauler. The rivets are quite small on the original (only 3/8" heads), so at 1:12th scale that gets pretty small. I tried some scale rivets on some scrap stock, and they are just too small to bother with all that drilling and hammering time. So, I think I will drop back to the embossed rivets for the water tank, using the same method that I did on the Shay tender tanks, which involves embossing the sheet metal into a row of dimples in heavier bar stock using a small punch mounted in the drill press (NOT turning, just pressing down). It gives a nice even rivet look for the little rivets.

I also did some tests with silver soldering pieces of the copper sheet stock (only 0.020" thick), that went well, no problems with warping, and it is still able to take the curve over the boiler that it needs. So, I'll get the stock cut out and start in. Pics to follow as that unfolds. I also need to make up some formers for the curves and the right angle bends that will be in the end/bottom sheets to form the flanges.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 03, 2017, 02:21:28 AM
Spent some time this evening getting my pages converted from referencing photos on PhotoSuckit to PostImage.org, which so far is still free and ad free, and allows linking. Made up a little program to search the image number on the other sites list, and convert the text - handy to be a programmer sometimes. Still some manual work, and it only is set up for my naming conventions, so not generally useful to others, unfortunately. But, have 10 of 35 pages done, another couple sessions and I will tell PB to go suck swarf.

I've noticed today that their site is getting bogged down worse than usual, and sometimes it would not even let me see my own images.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on July 03, 2017, 03:35:17 AM
Spent some time this evening getting my pages converted from referencing photos on PhotoSuckit to PostImage.org, which so far is still free and ad free, and allows linking. Made up a little program to search the image number on the other sites list, and convert the text - handy to be a programmer sometimes. Still some manual work, and it only is set up for my naming conventions, so not generally useful to others, unfortunately. But, have 10 of 35 pages done, another couple sessions and I will tell PB to go suck swarf.

I've noticed today that their site is getting bogged down worse than usual, and sometimes it would not even let me see my own images.

PB is probably bogged down from everyone down loading their pictures and cancelling their account!  :lolb:

I already have all my pictures on my computer and also on the SD card in my camera, so all I have to do is cancel my account. Then I'll start rebuilding my build threads. Time consuming...........yes..........but will come with a certain amount of satisfaction!  ;)

Jim

PS: I also read Ade's post. Good news!  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 03, 2017, 03:42:31 AM
I would never trust my only copy of my pictures to any website, always keep them local, with frequent backup to separate drives.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on July 03, 2017, 12:19:33 PM
Chris, the nameplate and holder look fantastic!!  That alone adds a lot to the front end of the engine!! I have tried etching before, and though I got decent results, it's not an exact science by any means. Your vendor did a very nice job and if the cost is reasonable, that is the way to go!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 03, 2017, 01:00:07 PM
Chris, the nameplate and holder look fantastic!!  That alone adds a lot to the front end of the engine!! I have tried etching before, and though I got decent results, it's not an exact science by any means. Your vendor did a very nice job and if the cost is reasonable, that is the way to go!!

Bill
Thanks Bill, I am very pleased with the job they did, the letters are way too small to hand cut.


I have been thinking about the water tank, and have decided to build a bar framework inside it, and skin over with the thin sheet stock. Without the frame it will be too weak.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 03, 2017, 10:28:23 PM
Started in on the framework for the inside of the water tank. I cut a wooden form to bend the ribs around, and to check the shapes of each one. The outer ribs are sized to put the outside of the water tank 1" out from the boiler shell.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/blmchxxhj/IMG_0679.jpg)
Since the bar flexes back after bending around the form, I finished off the shape by hand, using the form as a check till it just touched the form all the way around. The ends of the bar are still straight, since the tank hangs down just below the centerline of the boiler. The four ribs each took about 5 minutes to do, lots of flexing, checking, tweaking, used a pair of heavy pliers to give the bars tight adjustments, just by hand most of the time. Amazing how little it takes to tweak the shape just that little bit.
Once all four ribs were all the same, I bent two more smaller ones, to sit at the ends of the tank just on top of the ceramic sheet insulation that will be around the boiler.
Then, got out some straight bar and milled notches in at each rib position - the ribs are positioned under each overlap in the tank shell plates.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/hqig90eyv/IMG_0680.jpg)
All four bars were clamped together through the whole process, so that all the spacings would stay consistant.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/pgkn0erwn/IMG_0681.jpg)
Last up was to drill/tap the holes at the intersections. The holes at the ends of the curved bars had to be done over on the drill press, where other end of the curved bar could hang down under the table.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/m0x44lk1z/IMG_0682.jpg)
The parts so far. Still need to make the long bars for the inner ribs, and get them connected to the outer ribs. Then, on to the outer shell, which will be made from 0.020" copper sheet with faux rivet heads embossed in around the edges.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 04, 2017, 01:32:31 AM
This evening I got the rest of the water tank framework made up and assembled, ready to start on the skin for it.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6gpqe29xj/IMG_0684.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on July 04, 2017, 06:23:06 AM
Wow Chris!  This is looking cooler and cooler all the time!  And has been said before, you make incredible progress! I'll be doing the boiler on my steam tractor soon and I've learned a lot watching your boiler making process.  (and by soon, I mean sometime over the next year :)).
Kim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 04, 2017, 12:49:46 PM
Wow Chris!  This is looking cooler and cooler all the time!  And has been said before, you make incredible progress! I'll be doing the boiler on my steam tractor soon and I've learned a lot watching your boiler making process.  (and by soon, I mean sometime over the next year :) ).
Kim
After getting used to the look of the narrow boiler by itself, it looks drastically different with the tank framework on it, will be even more different when its skin is on. I can't wait to see it with the cab.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on July 04, 2017, 02:13:10 PM
Too cool.  Looking awesome Chris.

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 04, 2017, 09:31:42 PM
Thanks Bob!


Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 04, 2017, 09:32:40 PM

Just finished converting all my photos in this thread to use PostImage.org, rather than those swarf-sucking-money-grubbing-elf-licking-rassafrazzing-rabbits at PhotoBucket.   :Mad: :cussing:    :slap:   



And no, I am not deleting my account over there - that would just let them free up some of their disk space!   :stir:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on July 04, 2017, 10:17:48 PM
Hey Chris, just a thought. I can still upload to the aforementioned bastards, so lets load them up with GIGO. We can give them the garbage and they can just keep it

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 04, 2017, 10:41:46 PM
Hey Chris, just a thought. I can still upload to the aforementioned bastards, so lets load them up with GIGO. We can give them the garbage and they can just keep it

Cletus
Now there's a fun idea!  Upload videos of the fireplace or dancing kitties... Just don't go over the storage limit where they charge you or delete....   :stir:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on July 05, 2017, 02:15:39 AM
Yeah, just get everybody to load junk up to their personal level of free or pay, then dump them. Would pretty much take a worldwide effort, but wait, we have members all over the world. And, if we employ the "six degrees of separation" theory, the world is ours. Happy Fourth  :cheers:

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Roger B on July 05, 2017, 08:32:14 AM
Just catching up on your build again. Magnificent work as ever  :praise2: I like your technique for building the T  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:

Thank you for taking the time and effort to relink your pictures  :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: MJM460 on July 05, 2017, 10:56:33 AM
Hi Chris,

Really looking great, and completely changes the look of that boiler as you said.

May I suggest filing or machining drain groves in the lower edge of those intermediate cross pieces in the bottom of each side of the tank.  The pieces in the picture will make the tank fifficulty to drain when you finish running.

Looking forward to seeing the skins attached.

MJM460
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 05, 2017, 12:40:52 PM
Hi Chris,

Really looking great, and completely changes the look of that boiler as you said.

May I suggest filing or machining drain groves in the lower edge of those intermediate cross pieces in the bottom of each side of the tank.  The pieces in the picture will make the tank fifficulty to drain when you finish running.

Looking forward to seeing the skins attached.

MJM460

The tank on the model will not actually be used for water, just for show, so don't need to worry about draining it (or getting it sealed! ). I am planning on adding some extra layers of the insulation inside the tank instead. The drain gaps you mention would be very important if it was to be used for real. I've done that on my full size boats, added limber holes at the bottom of the floor timbers to allow any water to flow down to the low point for pumping out.

Depending on the run time with the starting water valume in the boiler, I may add a Goodall valve on the water fill plug, which are a clever way to add water for the model boilers, very common in the Gauge 1 locos. It consists of a plastic water bottle, looks like a bottle for stuff like window cleaner, but the  pump top has a hose attached with a tapered plug on the end. The Goodall valve has a matching taper socket on the top, and the bottom has a bit of silicone tubing around it covering the output hole. The boiler pressure holds the tubing tight onto the hole, but when water is pumped in it pushes past the tubing into the boiler - can refill a boiler pretty quick with it, and the tapered socket allows it to be connected/disconnected in a flash.

On the real one up at the museum in Maine, they were planning on adding additional drain cocks in the lower corners, since they were not able to get the last several inches of water out with the siphon to the boiler, and after sitting for a few months the leftover water was dirty, and needed to be flushed out before a run with clean water. The really slick bit of engineering they had was the water injectors, no moving parts but used steam from the boiler through some clever venturis and such to accelerate the water past the check valve into the boiler. They have the writeup on how those things work on their website, clever technology!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: MJM460 on July 05, 2017, 01:46:57 PM
Hi Chris, using the tanks only for insulation is a good idea.  It will be interesting to see how that valve works.  Injectors seem pretty common in locomotives, especially in the larger models.  At least they are often written about, including some quite good books on the subject.  However other comments in the modelling press imply that they are a bit of a black art, and some have the touch, while others "prefer" a hand pump in the tender or an axle pump.  But I guess you will not have a tender.

MJM460

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 05, 2017, 02:30:13 PM
Hi Chris, using the tanks only for insulation is a good idea.  It will be interesting to see how that valve works.  Injectors seem pretty common in locomotives, especially in the larger models.  At least they are often written about, including some quite good books on the subject.  However other comments in the modelling press imply that they are a bit of a black art, and some have the touch, while others "prefer" a hand pump in the tender or an axle pump.  But I guess you will not have a tender.

MJM460
Yeah, no tender for the Lombards. The Goodall valve works very well, I have them on my Gauge-1 locos, as do most of the guys in the local club. Accucraft makes a great set, pump bottle and valve. In the US, got mine through The Train Department, they carry most of the brands. Surprising how well it can pump against 60 or 80 psi in a boiler, you just hold the tapered plug into the top of the valve and squeeze the lever on the pump bottle. Makes a good squirt gun too!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 05, 2017, 02:47:50 PM
Started in on the saddle tank shell. I clamped a piece of thin cardboard around the frame, traced the shape, and trimmed it out from the lines .150 to account for the rivetted flanges. That pattern was used to trace onto the copper sheet to make the three main panels. I got lucky that I had found 4" wide stock, which was perfect for two of the panels, trimmed the third down to proper size, remembering to leave room for the overlap between the panels.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/moy5i6itj/IMG_0688.jpg)
Then, made up a faux-rivet jig, which is a length of steel bar stock for the upright, with a brass bar screwed and loctited to the side. The bar is tall enough to reach the bottom of the vise, and leave enough height for the bottom/end panels when I get to them. The bar was 'dotted' with the center drill, .187" apart. These holes will take the copper when pressed with the punch:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/66aepcvd3/IMG_0686.jpg)
Then, the jig was clamped into the larger drill press with the bottom of the jig against the bottom of the vise so it could not slip, and a small prick punch chucked into the drill chuck, again bottomed out against the inside of the chuck. The vise was adjusted till the center hole lined up with the punch, and locked down.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/62gl93pvr/IMG_0689.jpg)
Now, to make the rivets, the sheet is placed face down onto the jig, held against the back wall, and lined up in the corner. Then, with the drill press OFF, since you just want the pressure from it, the handle pulled down to impress the copper into the hole. Release the pressure, move the sheet over till the first 'rivet' drops into the next hole, and pull the handle again. This is repeated to move it down the line - the row of holes in the jig align the next operation. In this next picture, the reflections make it look like the concave impression is sticking up, but it is really not.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/70scxndtz/IMG_0690.jpg)
On this first panel, which is the center panel on the tank, the drawn lines were used to show where the overlap from the end panels would be. The center panel is lower than the end ones in the stack, so the very ends of the edge get no rivets. Here is the first part of the row turned back face up:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/l8i1maqiv/IMG_0691.jpg)
It took just a few minutes per panel to form the rivets, the center panel just got them on the ends, the other two got them all the way around:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gf2vv6jev/IMG_0693.jpg)
And here is the end one held up where it will go on the frame, after it is curved to fit:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/eyrdd1ghz/IMG_0694.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: steam guy willy on July 05, 2017, 03:02:56 PM
Hi Clever stuff there  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on July 05, 2017, 05:33:40 PM
Dog, Dog...I am just at awe man.. I leave for a couple of days and this is some amazing stufff man. Your a true craftsman with all these setup and ideas you been coming up with. Did I say .....I........like........ :Love:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 05, 2017, 05:42:50 PM
Dog, Dog...I am just at awe man.. I leave for a couple of days and this is some amazing stufff man. Your a true craftsman with all these setup and ideas you been coming up with. Did I say .....I........like........ :Love:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Thanks Don, just copying how you made the tank to store your model crawfish!!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 05, 2017, 08:49:56 PM
More on the saddle tank skin - cut the hole for the steam dome in the center panel with a coarse bit in a flex shaft rotary tool. Drilling or boring it on the mill would have required sandwiching it in wood to keep it from deforming, it tool less time to just hog it out with the flex shaft tool.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8ygncocsn/IMG_0695.jpg)
Then bent the panesl around the frame and clamped them in place to mark out for some temporary screws to hold them in place during soldering. Made a couple of goofs, and had to redrill the holes. The mistakes will get some JB Weld to fill them in later...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6xq3rugnb/IMG_0697.jpg)
I had to take the bottom rails off the frame to drill for the new holes, while I was at it I drilled some in the bottom and front/rear faces to hold those panels as well. Here is a shot of the center panel bolted on. I am going to make the narrow panels for the bottom and ends, and solder them in first, so that I can use the open framework to solder through. Then, will bolt on the main panesl, turn it over and solder the rest of the joints from the inside.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gtr6rhmfb/IMG_0698.jpg)
Coming along well, it is really changing the appearance of the model with every step...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: kvom on July 05, 2017, 10:44:04 PM
Injectors were very common on fullsize locos, and practically standard on traction engines.  Since a locomotive needs two water supply means, injectors were usually supplanted by steam driven pumps.

I have two on my 1.5x scale loco, but I think any smaller they don't scale well.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 05, 2017, 11:01:57 PM
Injectors were very common on fullsize locos, and practically standard on traction engines.  Since a locomotive needs two water supply means, injectors were usually supplanted by steam driven pumps.

I have two on my 1.5x scale loco, but I think any smaller they don't scale well.
Why do locos need two? Volume, or just a backup? On the Lombard I saw, they did have a pair of injectors, each could be turned on independently.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: kvom on July 06, 2017, 03:15:10 AM
Always need two (or more) sources of water.  Sometimes one doesn't work, and then the only option without a backup is to kill the fire.  Not as critical with the tractors.  Other types of pumps are powered by an eccentric on the axle or by the crosshead/piston, but these work only when in motion.  With these pumps the piping is such that most of the time the water is just pumped back into the tender until a cutoff valve forces it towards the boiler.  On my loco the design was for an axle pump.  I put the eccentric on the axle but didn't build the pump, opting for the injectors instead.

Water is pumped to the front of the boiler to keep the cooler water from the tender away from the firebox.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 06, 2017, 03:20:58 AM
Always need two (or more) sources of water.  Sometimes one doesn't work, and then the only option without a backup is to kill the fire.  Not as critical with the tractors.  Other types of pumps are powered by an eccentric on the axle or by the crosshead/piston, but these work only when in motion.  With these pumps the piping is such that most of the time the water is just pumped back into the tender until a cutoff valve forces it towards the boiler.  On my loco the design was for an axle pump.  I put the eccentric on the axle but didn't build the pump, opting for the injectors instead.

Water is pumped to the front of the boiler to keep the cooler water from the tender away from the firebox.
Good info, thanks!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: steam guy willy on July 06, 2017, 03:41:16 PM
Looking good C...do you use some sort of solvent to really clean up the metal to give really good adhesion for the JD weld, i had noticed that when i use it it sometimes breaks away ..very annoying........??
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 06, 2017, 03:49:39 PM
Looking good C...do you use some sort of solvent to really clean up the metal to give really good adhesion for the JD weld, i had noticed that when i use it it sometimes breaks away ..very annoying........??
I've only used it a few times, use alcohol to remove any oil, and some 60 grit to give it some tooth. Don't know if there is a particular prep primer or anything, good thing to Google, or check tneir website.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 06, 2017, 04:42:18 PM
More on the water tank. Started with the panels that go across the bottom - they are simple rectablges, bent 90 at each side over a piece of 1" bar stock, with the overlaps hammered to a close fit. The joints got a few real rivets to hold them together, before the faux rivets down each side.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/hjnr92r47/IMG_0700.jpg)
Here they are installed...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/u5y65wtl3/IMG_0701.jpg)
Then a wood form was cut out on the bandsaw to do the end plates, and a pair of blanks cut out of the sheet stock, wide enough to bend over the form to make the flanges.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/v1unld39j/IMG_0702.jpg)
A bit of hammering over on the edges...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/acm2d7g7b/IMG_0703.jpg)
and then the faux rivets run down the edges....
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dkqjq92h3/IMG_0704.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/yvo3uiklj/IMG_0705.jpg)
Next up, solder these pieces in place, then add the other two main panels, solder them in place, and grind off the temporary screw heads...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 06, 2017, 08:18:11 PM
Ta Da!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dxig3ce6f/IMG_0706.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/o8usw05vr/IMG_0707.jpg)

Still need to do some grinding/filling work around the temporary screw holes, and also need to make the 'pipe' that goes around the hole that the steam dome sticks through.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on July 06, 2017, 11:10:42 PM
Wow crueby, that sure looks good.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on July 07, 2017, 12:48:21 AM
Fine work Chris. Looks exceptional to me!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 07, 2017, 01:39:27 AM
Thanks guys, looking forward to seeing it with the paint and the cab...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 07, 2017, 08:47:51 PM
Finishing up on the water tank, last couple of parts. Started with the shell around the steam dome. Made a block of wood with the same curve as the outside of the tank, cut a strip of copper and rolled it to fit the hole:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rrgg392h3/IMG_0711.jpg)
The end was trimmed down to the line drawn from the wood former, then the copper was hammered over onto the surface of the wood to form the mounting flange.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/y7petcb0n/IMG_0713.jpg)
The rim was embossed for rivets just like the other panels:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/cnu9z5g3r/IMG_0714.jpg)
Then on to the water fill tube and lid, filed a curve to match the tank into the end and then milled slots in the the sides of some copper tube to hold the hinge bars.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5bottlxvr/IMG_0708.jpg)
The tube was cut off from the main bar, here is it so far:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/y2lnjo3pj/IMG_0709.jpg)
Soldered on some small square stock for the hinge bars,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4opx430zr/IMG_0710.jpg)
A lid was made up from the sheet stock, bars soldered on, and the bars drilled for a hinge pin:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/594y6ru87/IMG_0715.jpg)
Parts so far:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/eedb0mxmv/IMG_0717.jpg)
I then went back with some JB weld to fill the bad screw holes in the panels, and glued on the new parts. Will post some pics when that has cured up...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 08, 2017, 01:50:59 PM
I have started designing up the cab assembly in 3D, need to have at least the floor part built to be able to mount the butane tank for the burner, and also need to know where the window openings will be and what section will be able to lift off for access to the controls. So, yesterday I spent a bunch of time going through my measurements and photos of the real one, and got the floor assembly designed. It is more complicated a layout than you'd think at first glance, since the sides of the cab are raised to give clearance for the tracks to pivot.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/k2kzdngsn/Cab_v7.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/wv93dksef/Cab_v7a.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 08, 2017, 09:24:05 PM
More done on the 3d model of the cab, walls/roof/ladder/door are done, still need to do the woodbox flaps and the seats for the engineer (has small fold-up seats by each door), plus some ironwork here and there.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3lgd5q9xj/Cab_v14.jpg)
and could not resist inserting it into the project for the complete hauler to get a look at it that way too. It did show an interferance with the ladders on the cab, need to narrow the ladders slightly to clear the back of the tracks.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/f9af09z2f/Complete_Hauler_v56.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 09, 2017, 02:33:38 PM
Prime coat of paint is on the boiler and saddle tank:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/pogl96w93/IMG_0719.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/3o08skdl3/IMG_0720.jpg)
and also have the 3d model of the cab finished up, can start in on the cab floor now. With the cab modeled up, I can work out the positions of the butane tank, RC equipment, and the steam/throttle/whistle/gauges manifold and piping. Also need to model up the stephensen control levers and the rear drawbar. Oh, and the larger functional whistle that will be hidden underneath the firebox (the scale one on the steam dome is just for show, it would give such a high pitch sound that it would hurt ears).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qf9beyymf/Cab_v19.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on July 09, 2017, 04:07:42 PM
Chris it is looking awesome and the cab will be the icing on the cake......I'll bet it was hard to primer that beautiful brass/copper work you did so well. :'(
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: steamboatmodel on July 09, 2017, 04:14:41 PM
Looking great, are the saddletanks going to be functional?
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 09, 2017, 04:22:01 PM
Thanks guys! It really changes the look. The saddle tank is non functional in this model, I am going to layer in extra insulation inside it, the underside of the boiler will have just one or two layers of ceramic sheet insulation.
The cab should come together pretty quickly, its mostly wood, will cut and notch all the pieces on my little tablesaw (micromark).
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on July 09, 2017, 08:26:23 PM
The cab looks good Chris, as does the painted up boiler and saddle tank. Are you using hi-temp paint?

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 09, 2017, 09:05:21 PM
The cab looks good Chris, as does the painted up boiler and saddle tank. Are you using hi-temp paint?

Bill
I have a couple of different ones, both automotive and the grill paint type. The only place that will be really hot is the smokebox and stack. There are some engine and exhaust paints and coatings that will take much higher temperature, but they require a special curing process that I am not set up for.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on July 09, 2017, 10:46:05 PM
Got it....thanks.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 10, 2017, 03:14:42 PM
Cab construction, starting from the floor and moving up... Using my little Micromark tablesaw, which has a fence that allows very fine adjustments, I sawed out some swiss pear beams and planks to size, and glued the floorboards edge to edge. Then, they were glued to the beams into subassemblies, which were then bolted up together using some small brass angle stock and 0-08 nuts/bolts.
Here are the first sections together:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wbq7z2wuf/IMG_0721.jpg)
The beams with the angled cuts will be down along the frame rails, the angles start where the frames end.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/54u4toa13/IMG_0722.jpg)
Here is what it looks like in place:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ltvkpl6mf/IMG_0723.jpg)
The wider platform at the back is where the wood or coal would be piled, the low center section up front gave access to the firebox.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/cnda2b1dz/IMG_0724.jpg)
Here the side floorboards are on. They are raised up to give clearance for the tracks and drive chains when they pivot going over bumps.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mzzkodux3/IMG_0726.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/moi4bmeh3/IMG_0727.jpg)
and all set in place on the frames:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/suo5w3xs7/IMG_0729.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fp8nq03wn/IMG_0730.jpg)
So far so good, now on to the side walls. I am going to make the walls/roof in one removable piece to allow easy access to the inside, most likely with some locator pins in the corners that will go down through the floorboards.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on July 10, 2017, 03:33:46 PM
That's some mighty fine woodworking there woodpecker. That is really shaping up nicely Chris and your on a roll Dog. I hope you been feeding them elfs good, working them overtime like you been doing. Oh and did I say .....I.........like......... :Love:



 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on July 10, 2017, 05:45:33 PM
The fake rivets really show up now with the paint on, from the photos cannot tell they are not real.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: fumopuc on July 10, 2017, 07:10:15 PM
Hi Chris, I do like the progress. Waiting for the rest of that cab.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 10, 2017, 09:13:48 PM
Thanks guys!

The rivets on the firebox are actual rivets, the smaller ones on the saddletank are the embossed ones. For the smaller ones, the embossing is a whole lot easier and looks good, for the larger ones I find that actual rivets look better.

Today I started in on framing up the cab walls and doors - the wood work itself goes quickly, but the glue dry time slows it back down again (am using carpenters glue, like the way it handles and allows for positioning better than CA glues). Pictures to follow as the assemblies come together...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: jschoenly on July 11, 2017, 12:33:26 PM
Man this thing is just too cool.  I hope to see this thing in person all together.  Awesome work!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on July 11, 2017, 12:45:49 PM
That looks great Chris. Is the wood pre-finished or will that be done once all the cab is together?

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 11, 2017, 01:51:12 PM
Man this thing is just too cool.  I hope to see this thing in person all together.  Awesome work!
Hopefully this year I can make it to Cabin Fever again!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 11, 2017, 01:55:18 PM
That looks great Chris. Is the wood pre-finished or will that be done once all the cab is together?

Bill
I wont paint the wood till its all together. Some of the old Lombard pictures show the cabs as raw wood, some painted. I am modelling this one after nbr 38 up in Maine, so t will be painted black like the original is. The side panels on the woodbox are sheet metal on it, will use the same copper sheet from the saddle tank for the model.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 11, 2017, 03:21:56 PM
Yesterday I got the cross panels and beams made, this morning got them trimmed to final shape (cutout for the boiler, etc).
Here are the front and side walls propped up in place (not held up, so leaning a bit), next up is to make the angle brackets to hold them together...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/g1rbo2ocn/IMG_0731.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/uniccbl53/IMG_0732.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on July 11, 2017, 03:33:09 PM
Looking good Chris! seems a shame top paint the wood but if that is the way the prototype was, I understand your reasoning.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 11, 2017, 03:37:26 PM
Looking good Chris! seems a shame top paint the wood but if that is the way the prototype was, I understand your reasoning.

Bill
Yeah, some looked like this one:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/94sia9q6f/DSC_4090.jpg)

while others (including the one I am using as a prototype) like this:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qnb5cji6f/DSC_4488.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on July 11, 2017, 03:50:20 PM
Well I still like the natural graying of the wood (MicroMark sells an aging stain for that), but I definitely prefer the one you are modeling; those tires on the first one look totally out of place.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 11, 2017, 03:54:03 PM
Well I still like the natural graying of the wood (MicroMark sells an aging stain for that), but I definitely prefer the one you are modeling; those tires on the first one look totally out of place.

Bill
Those tires are just so they can move it as needed, definitely not original, the skids for it are underneath. That particular engine is unrestored, but is still functional. They move it on compressed air occasionally to keep it freed up, but the boiler is the original and not certified any more (probably would need to be replaced). The museum got it on loan from the family that owns it to use as a reference when restoring their nbr 38 machine. The museum did not have the original wheels either, the students welded up the steel ones during the restoration.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on July 11, 2017, 05:16:37 PM
The bell is a nice touch on the second photo, like you are building.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 11, 2017, 05:24:28 PM
The bell is a nice touch on the second photo, like you are building.
There  will be a working bell just like it on the model too!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on July 11, 2017, 09:28:08 PM
Damn, beyond words I am.

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 12, 2017, 09:39:07 PM
Damn, beyond words I am.

-Bob
Finally, a way to get people to stop talking on their cell phone!   :lolb:    Awful lot of work though...  :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 12, 2017, 09:43:22 PM
A little more to show on the cab, got the center divider wall panelled up, the front side has the planks horizontally, the back side has them diagonally. I assume that was to help keep the cab from racking to the side - there is a lot of load on the back half from the wood/coal pile. Also, the two walls are bolted in place with more of the brass angle stock. Angle brass? Gotta be a name like 'angle iron' for brass stock...  :headscratch:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/uxh4nk1xj/IMG_0735.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/9p3g64ngn/IMG_0736.jpg)
I've given it some thought, and decided to make the walls/roof all come off as one piece to give access to the inside. The walls around the back for the woodbox will be attached to the floorboards though. I think. For now.... Maybe... Hmm...  :thinking:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on July 13, 2017, 09:54:13 PM
Angle brass? Gotta be a name like 'angle iron' for brass stock...  :headscratch:

Um... Maybe architectural shapes

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 13, 2017, 10:05:42 PM
Continuing on with the cab work - here are the roof beams in place, also bolted in with angle brass...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/t3rplwerr/IMG_0737.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/j7qmm98zr/IMG_0738.jpg)
and then the roof planks were added. They have the edges sanded round to like the wall planking does.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/hjrh7lv47/IMG_0739.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/5gm5k1k1z/IMG_0741.jpg)
Next up will be the woodbox sides - decided to have them be attached to the floorboard assembly, rather than the roof/walls. The woodbox will hold the butane tank and the radio gear, with a cover over the top with split wood log sections attached to hide it all. Also, I've started laying out the boiler backhead items, like the throttle body, whistle valve, sight glass, etc.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on July 13, 2017, 10:46:46 PM
Very nice Chris. Looks like it would be a warm place on a cold winter day in the snow.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on July 13, 2017, 11:01:42 PM
Hey Chris,

Reading back through this thread and viewing your photos and others about this machine, I stopped to think what it must have been like to ride this beast through the forest. Scary, heart pounding and a ride as rough as a cob, but boy what an experience.

For you to take the time to research the details and then put your creative ability to re-create this beautiful old wonderful piece of equipment deserves a special Thank you, and another thank you for sharing it with us.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 13, 2017, 11:21:36 PM
Hey Chris,

Reading back through this thread and viewing your photos and others about this machine, I stopped to think what it must have been like to ride this beast through the forest. Scary, heart pounding and a ride as rough as a cob, but boy what an experience.

For you to take the time to research the details and then put your creative ability to re-create this beautiful old wonderful piece of equipment deserves a special Thank you, and another thank you for sharing it with us.
Thanks very much! Its been a lot of fun so far, and glad to have you along for the ride.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 14, 2017, 09:30:59 PM
The woodbox has been framed and skinned - I was going to use copper sheet, but remembered that I had some thin plywood sheets, and used that instead. Glues hold to it, and looks same when done. Here is the woodbox:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3pyj4td53/IMG_0744.jpg)
and with the cab set in place:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/o7jhggp8n/IMG_0742.jpg)
Still need to make some locator pins to hold the front corners in place.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qddsaysp3/IMG_0743.jpg)
The doors are made, need to install some hinges on those (dollhouse hinges are perfect size). Also need to make up the slatted panels that hinge in place above the woodbox, as well as the ladders for the cab and also the one over the top of the water tank.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 16, 2017, 01:20:24 AM
Some more progress on the cab today, got a first coat of paint on:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/f22eeho07/IMG_0747.jpg)
and also got the steam manifold designed up:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dkgy2xj9j/Steam_Manifold_v5_Back.jpg)
The vertical post will support the sight glass, and the valve over on the other end is the whistle valve.
The parts are sized for an off-the shelf sight glass and RC steam valve I got from The Train Department.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kc7d5s893/Steam_Manifold_v5_Front.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 16, 2017, 06:17:43 PM
After sanding and putting another coat of paint on the cab parts, I decided to knock out the drawbar at the rear of the frame, which was used to hook up to the sleds being towed. Much more fun thatn watching paint dry....

Started with some 1"x5/8" bar stock for the wide end of the drawbar, trimmed to length and milled a shallow recess to locate the bar that goes into the frame.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/428gurzrb/IMG_0748.jpg)
Then milled a nub on the end of the stock for that bar to match the recess (using brass for this bar, did not have any steel the approriate size)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9aywewssn/IMG_0749.jpg)
Next tipped the end blank up to match the angle that the side will be at, and milled out the center in a series of shallow cuts, taking the sides and end down to finished dimensions.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/l41awvemf/IMG_0750.jpg)
Then tipped it the other way, and did likewise to that end.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/i79oiujev/IMG_0751.jpg)
Then laid the part down horizontal, and cleaned up the bottom of the 'V' that was milled in.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/imkybv5c7/IMG_0752.jpg)
With the inside done, put it back at the edge of the vise and milled the side down to match the inside angle, leaving a flat at the top and some spare stock at the bottom.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/iy2eomls7/IMG_0753.jpg)
When both sides were angled in, set the part up to finish milling the flats at the narrow end. Here, the one on the left is done, the one on the right to follow.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/56xxmewuf/IMG_0754.jpg)
Drilled the hole for the drawbar retaining pin,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4ip33gy4n/IMG_0755.jpg)
and set up the rotary table with a faceplate and wood spacer to mill the arc in the wide end of the part.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qylaqus3r/IMG_0756.jpg)
I bolted the two pieces together, here is the drawbar so far, ready to mark out the mounting bolt holes, and make the retaining pin that drops into the top hole:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5m97ffirr/IMG_0760.jpg)
And some progress on the cab - sanded down the first coat of paint and applied another:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6shsrywg7/IMG_0761.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/wck2yehtz/IMG_0764.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on July 16, 2017, 06:30:16 PM
The wood was good looking but the paint just completes the overall look.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: fumopuc on July 16, 2017, 07:20:05 PM
Cool, Chris.It is difficult to recognize that it is a model.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 16, 2017, 07:56:52 PM
Cool, Chris.It is difficult to recognize that it is a model.
Thanks!


Though I have to admit, its not a model, I just have a REALLY big workbench!   :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on July 16, 2017, 10:11:13 PM
Great overall shot Chris!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 16, 2017, 10:24:08 PM
Thanks Bill!

Just got the doors hung, had to dig back in the drawer to find my mini drill index set, been a while since I've needed a number 74 drill bit and the small pin vise. These are small size dollhouse hinges, that come with little ring shank nails to grip the wood better. I drilled all the way through the frames, so I could put a drop of superglue in through the back side of the hole for some extra grip.

Most of the time, the doors will be all the way open against the cab wall, where they get held with some little latches (not made yet), to give access for the engineer and fireman to climb in and out. That will be about the last thing to get made for the model, carving the figures. This is one model that just cries out for some people in it.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/f6xfg1xhj/IMG_0766.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/ra2r3m8jr/IMG_0768.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/f9lwgmqiv/IMG_0769.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on July 16, 2017, 10:35:55 PM
Wow, that looks so cool, Chris!

Just have to add my repetitive comment,
Kim

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 17, 2017, 12:17:32 AM
Thanks Kim!

One more bit for the day, turned up the pin for the drawbar. Turned one end of the bar down to fit the hole in the drawbar, then turned it around and turned in the shape of the head.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3yj8s9jnr/IMG_0770.jpg)
Quick couple passes in the mill to make the flats, then drilled the hole for the keeper chain.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/h3yqyddjb/IMG_0771.jpg)
And test fit with some small chain. Just needs a brushfull of paint on the pin...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/pni4w4lvr/IMG_0780.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: gbritnell on July 17, 2017, 02:06:03 AM
Phenomenal work Chris! I dare say it should probably end up in a museum some day.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 17, 2017, 02:08:35 AM
Phenomenal work Chris! I dare say it should probably end up in a museum some day.
gbritnell

Thanks very much George - it will at least be visiting one this fall!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on July 17, 2017, 02:12:32 AM
I can almost see a fire in the boiled in that picture with the door open. Amazing work as always.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 17, 2017, 06:11:01 PM
Started in today on the folding panels that go above the woodbox to let them pile the wood up to the roof. Here is a picture of the real one:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/om97mfjk7/DSC_3958.jpg)
As you can see, the hinges are long bars that hold all of the slats in place, there is one bar on either side of each slat, with one side having a loop at the end to form the hinge. It doesnt show in that photo, but there is a similar bar down the side of the woodbox to form the lower end of the hinge. I am going to hinge the rear set as well, since the roof is removeable so I cannot fix the upper end like it should be. All the panels get a hook arrangement at the top to hold them upright - that is visible at the front of the right hand opening, up against the center wall.

So, to make those up, I started out by cutting some small tube and a set of steel bar stock, and made up a little jig to hold everything in place to silver solder up four bars at a time.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/c6chsoq87/IMG_0781.jpg)
Add flux, solder, and heat:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wt17e09mv/IMG_0785.jpg)
After cooling, the tube was cut to seperate the bars - had to do that carefully since the soldering annealed the brass tubing. Maybe I should have drilled some steel rod rather than use the brass!
Anyway, here are the parts all soldered up, some cut apart. The ones in the right show how they will be on the hinge pin.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/s8f0z2pxj/IMG_0786.jpg)
Next step, drill the screw holes in the bars, and then make up the wood slats...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 18, 2017, 02:31:02 PM
Got the hinges drilled:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4enyorm4n/IMG_0787.jpg)
and installed:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5ji0u58lj/IMG_0790.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/rwprgy9jb/IMG_0795.jpg)
Ready to make the latches to hold them upright, and some paint.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on July 18, 2017, 02:42:18 PM
That adds even more wonderful detail Chris!!  It looks like in the full size picture that the back slats are more permanently fixed with only the side once being able to swing down. Is that the case?

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 18, 2017, 02:44:43 PM
That adds even more wonderful detail Chris!!  It looks like in the full size picture that the back slats are more permanently fixed with only the side once being able to swing down. Is that the case?

Bill
You are correct - however, since the roof of the model comes off with the cab, I had to hinge the back section as well. One (more) minor change from the original. Getting the shop elf/engineer to bolt/unbolt that top set of brackets every time I wanted to remove the cab would have cost me SO many more cookies!!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on July 18, 2017, 02:55:06 PM
That makes sense yes. Does the whole cab come off for operation or just the roof to allow access to the controls, valves, etc.?

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 18, 2017, 03:00:25 PM
That makes sense yes. Does the whole cab come off for operation or just the roof to allow access to the controls, valves, etc.?

Bill

Picture/Words/1000   :atcomputer:

(https://s5.postimg.cc/j2yuzumkn/IMG_0796.jpg)
The center wall of the cab sits down in a slot, I am going to add a couple of guide pins in the front corners to keep it aligned. I thought about making just the roof come off, but the walls restrict access too much. This way, I can get at everything. The butane tank and RC gear will be hidden under a fake woodpile in the back.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on July 18, 2017, 10:57:03 PM
Damn Chris you just keep setting the scale higher Dog. That is some awesome work and looking like museum work. I just love the look of it man and did I say ......I.........like........ :Love:


Don  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 18, 2017, 11:55:08 PM
Thanks Don, though some bad news to report. Apparently TenneseeWhiskey sent my shop elves the recipe for some moonshine, and they fermented some cookies and York peppermint patties into a peppermint schnappes, and had a little party. It all went well till they took the corner too fast, and rolled the Lombard over coming down the hill:
 :facepalm:    :paranoia:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/cumpxr3rb/IMG_0799.jpg)
 :lolb:
Actually, I just turned it on its side to get easier access to the nuts and bolts that hold the cab floor to the frame!   :) The floor is far enough along, I hope, that it can be bolted in now. The only things to be done to it now are to bolt in things like the butane tank and radio, and that can be done with a hand drill.

I got some coats of paint on the woodbox slots, here are some overall views of how it looks now:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8wzg8cgxz/IMG_0802.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/3kalu7t1j/IMG_0804.jpg)
Next parts to go, I think I will alternate between work on the steam piping/manifold on the backhead, and making up the rest of the ironwork on the cab: ladders, holders for the slats and doors, handrails, that sort of fiddly stuff. Then on to the whistle valve and whistle (going to make one about 4 to 6 inches long that will tuck under the firebox, will give it a deeper sound than the scale size one, which would call all the chipmunks in the area). I have some RC boat events coming up for the next few weeks, which will slow things down. Also, coming up on August 9-12 there is a steam pageant down in the Finger Lakes region near here that is a lot of fun - they have a building with models on display (running on compressed air), plus LOTS of traction engines and tractors running around, along with sawmill/shingle mill, plowing, construction equipment playing in the dirt piles out back. Great show. If you are near western NY state, come on out. I'll be there, probably either Thursday or Friday - let me know if you can make it up and we can meet up.
http://www.pageantofsteam.org/ (http://www.pageantofsteam.org/)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on July 19, 2017, 12:47:03 AM
Those family shots just get better and better Chris!!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 19, 2017, 12:55:47 AM
Those family shots just get better and better Chris!!!

Bill
Thanks Bill! The last big visual change will be when I get the box seat and floor in for the steersman. It has changed a lot just in the last couple of weeks.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on July 19, 2017, 12:57:11 AM
Oh wow.  Incredible Chris; just incredible.

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Johnmcc69 on July 19, 2017, 01:18:20 AM
Speechless....
 :praise2:
Just fantastic. Beautiful.

John
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on July 19, 2017, 03:29:40 AM
Looking just amazing Chris, as usual!  :popcorn:

Hope the Elves are OK after their incident the other night!  :Lol:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 19, 2017, 03:40:27 AM
Thanks everyone, very kind! I think I am sold on steam vehicles rather than stationary engine projects, so much more variety of things to make. I can't wait to see it going around the driveway!


Kim, the shop elves just have a few scrapes and massive (for their size anyway) hangovers. They've turned the teapot into a sauna to recover...!  I docked their pay to cover the damage to the paintwork, and the tools they lost on the joyride.


 :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Dreeves on July 19, 2017, 04:09:24 AM
Chris, it keeps getting better. I look forward to checking in in this project. Keep it up.

Dave
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: steam guy willy on July 19, 2017, 01:02:06 PM
Getting more impressive daily, also i like the figured Maple ? on the table, would get a few violin necks from it  !!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on July 19, 2017, 01:43:02 PM
Chris, do you know how much it will weigh when completed?
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 19, 2017, 02:49:44 PM
Getting more impressive daily, also i like the figured Maple ? on the table, would get a few violin necks from it  !!

The table is not maple, it is some mystery wood that they use for the cheaper version of butcher block - I got a 36 x 6' piece of butcher block material at the local flooring/kitchen clearance place, and split it into two 18" wide chucks for my workbench tops.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 19, 2017, 02:52:58 PM
Chris, do you know how much it will weigh when completed?
It is about 26 pounds right now, figure there is at most another couple pounds to add on for the rest of the parts. Quite a bit less than the Shay model, which was around 50 to 54 pounds.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: steamboatmodel on July 19, 2017, 04:53:41 PM
Thanks Don, though some bad news to report. Apparently TenneseeWhiskey sent my shop elves the recipe for some moonshine, and they fermented some cookies and York peppermint patties into a peppermint schnappes, and had a little party. It all went well till they took the corner too fast, and rolled the Lombard over coming down the hill:
 :facepalm:    :paranoia:
(https://s5.postimg.org/cumpxr3rb/IMG_0799.jpg)
 :lolb:
Actually, I just turned it on its side to get easier access to the nuts and bolts that hold the cab floor to the frame!   :) The floor is far enough along, I hope, that it can be bolted in now. The only things to be done to it now are to bolt in things like the butane tank and radio, and that can be done with a hand drill.

I got some coats of paint on the woodbox slots, here are some overall views of how it looks now:
(https://s5.postimg.org/8wzg8cgxz/IMG_0802.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/3kalu7t1j/IMG_0804.jpg)
Next parts to go, I think I will alternate between work on the steam piping/manifold on the backhead, and making up the rest of the ironwork on the cab: ladders, holders for the slats and doors, handrails, that sort of fiddly stuff. Then on to the whistle valve and whistle (going to make one about 4 to 6 inches long that will tuck under the firebox, will give it a deeper sound than the scale size one, which would call all the chipmunks in the area). I have some RC boat events coming up for the next few weeks, which will slow things down. Also, coming up on August 9-12 there is a steam pageant down in the Finger Lakes region near here that is a lot of fun - they have a building with models on display (running on compressed air), plus LOTS of traction engines and tractors running around, along with sawmill/shingle mill, plowing, construction equipment playing in the dirt piles out back. Great show. If you are near western NY state, come on out. I'll be there, probably either Thursday or Friday - let me know if you can make it up and we can meet up.
http://www.pageantofsteam.org/ (http://www.pageantofsteam.org/)
Hi Chris,
Any chance you could post some photos of your model boats?
Regards,
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 19, 2017, 06:25:42 PM
Hi Chris,
Any chance you could post some photos of your model boats?
Regards,
Gerald.

Hi Gerald,

Sure thing - I have a variety that I've done over the years, ranging from static display models (all scratch built) like these:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/jgm6dzkef/100_0994.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/u9ya08r2f/100_1034.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/69sdgyhfr/DSC_0155.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/6b2badj9j/DSC_0174.jpg)

to radio controlled boats and subs like these (the shark sub dives, has control of all lower fins and the tail is articulated).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xphfyjrnr/IMG_1590a.jpg)

The rowboat is propelled and steered only with the oars, no propeller in it:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/betkykudj/IMG_0649a.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/vjijqaytj/IMG_1666.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/n6hg9dozr/IMG_1708.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/uaz9iew93/IMG_9869.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/wpr52uchz/ship_7.jpg)

There have been a few others as well, had digital pics of these handy. For the steam models, the major ones are the Shay loco in 3/4" scale:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/n5kllks93/DSC_7330.jpg)

and the Corliss twin:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kyxtdvimf/IMG_8495.jpg)

Not to mention all the animal carvings, scrimshaw, and such. Gotta have a variety of hobbies!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ke9ljpamf/IMG_8489.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/9kgqgu7d3/IMG_2056a.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/6cc93sl3b/IMG_2032a.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: steamboatmodel on July 19, 2017, 08:10:09 PM
You have been busy, Your shot of the Sabino confirms something I had suspected. We have meet years back when you and your Mon used to come up to the Metro Marine Modelers Regattas, am I right?
Regards,
Gerald Gardiner.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 19, 2017, 08:25:13 PM
You have been busy, Your shot of the Sabino confirms something I had suspected. We have meet years back when you and your Mon used to come up to the Metro Marine Modelers Regattas, am I right?
Regards,
Gerald Gardiner.

YES!  I was wondering if that was you when I saw the name and the question about the boats.  We came up to a bunch of the meets at the HarborFront pond. That was a LONG time ago!  I had gotten out of the RC hobby for a bunch of years, then ran into Don Spielberger and Greg Wagner again, who are part of the Rochester submarine group, and got back into the hobby with both surface and submarines. We actually have our monthly gathering at the pond here on Saturday in Rochester if you can make it, then first weekend in August is the big national submarine fun run in Carmel Indiana. I met a bunch of the group a few years ago in Hamilton when they were running in the pool by the steam engine museum, happened to be there that weekend to see the engine, yakked with Charlie Larking and the others for a while. You still involved with the boats? We run here at the pond every month in the summer, and at the Y pool in the winter.

Chris
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: steamboatmodel on July 19, 2017, 11:36:09 PM
Still involved in model boats as you can tell by my Handle and avatar. Don't get around like I would like too, retired and have health problems. Still have a drivers license but no car so have to rely on others for rides.
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 20, 2017, 01:15:03 AM
Just a bit of time in the shops today, but I was able to get the folding seats in the cab made up. The seats are simple slabs, and they fold up onto the back wall to clear the space in the doorway. Here is what they look like down:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/v7j6dy5s7/IMG_0806.jpg)
and folded up - they use a clever bracket underneath to hold the support leg, which hinges back to slip into the bracket.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9wh0vxy9z/IMG_0805.jpg)
A bit of paint and they will be done. Also, cut the stock for the steam manifold, and put it into the oven to relieve the stresses before cutting them to shape - I am thinking of shaping the top/back sides to get rid of the blocky shape, and don't want them to deform as I cut away material on just one side or the other.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on July 20, 2017, 02:24:21 PM
Clever arrangement Chris. Will there be a floor between the two seats for stoking the boiler?

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 20, 2017, 02:34:03 PM
Clever arrangement Chris. Will there be a floor between the two seats for stoking the boiler?

Bill
Yes, look back at the picture in post 1792, you can see the lower center section of the floor. On the real boiler the firebox door is just above that lower floor. They raised the side floors to give room for the tracks to pivot, which accounts for the odd floor shapes.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on July 20, 2017, 02:36:50 PM
Yep, I see it now, thanks.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 20, 2017, 03:44:29 PM
Yep, I see it now, thanks.

Bill
Since they used off the shelf boilers (Ames mfg) on a new shape machine, things like the cab came out a bit odd, but functional.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 20, 2017, 08:12:37 PM
I began cutting metal for the steam manifold this morning. Started with the main top bar, trimmed to length then drilled a passage hole down the center, not quite out the far end, to connect all the piping. The end was threaded for a plug.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kneash7lz/IMG_0807.jpg)
Then cut and drilled/tapped for the other two vertical bars, which will connect to the backhead of the boiler and hold the sight glass. All were bolted together. None of the passages go into these two parts, so bolts are enough, did not need soldering.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/y852rlnev/IMG_0809.jpg)
Then laid out and drilled/tapped all the holes. The bottom left and upper right holes need to be matches for the bushings on the boiler, so lots of careful measurements and rechecking...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6uzvwuguf/IMG_0811.jpg)
Here are the parts so far, laid out with the sight glass and RC throttle valve that will go on later.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/69ax0qls7/IMG_0812.jpg)
Last was to use a ball end mill to give the corners some shape, just for looks.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5h891jhl3/IMG_0813.jpg)
Here are the parts so far, along with one of the threaded studs to hold the throttle valve. Still need to make the fitting for the bottom of the sight glass, and the fitting for the pipe from the steam dome that goes on the back of the manifold. Then I can start on the whistle valve for the right hand end.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5l22hsn2f/IMG_0815.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 21, 2017, 05:54:38 PM
Some more work on the steam manifold today. I found one brainus-fartus, to use the latin technical term, in that the position of the inlet from the steam dome was not far enough to the side, and was interfering with the water fill bushing on the boiler. So, pluged that hole and drilled/tapped a new one farther over. The lower fitting that connects the sight glass to the boiler, and supports that end of the manifold is made:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/lt9kj5y2v/IMG_0816.jpg)
Here is how the manifold will sit on the boiler backhead - still need to make the shoulder bolt that holds the right-hand end in place:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/hzg4a0gqv/IMG_0818.jpg)
Some views of the manifold:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/afn17ynk7/IMG_0819.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/upkcn3op3/IMG_0820.jpg)
I thought I had picked up an all-brass pressure gauge, but I guess that never got beyond the shopping stage, so I am using the plastic housing one I had for now.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 22, 2017, 12:00:10 AM
One more piece on the steam manifold - made the shoulder bolt to hold it in place at the right hand end, and fortunately all the double-checking of the measurements worked, it fit perfectly at both ends:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/o6w3nx1vr/IMG_0821.jpg)
So, on to the whistle valve, which will go in the hole at the right end of the manifold. This will be a ball-check valve style, with a lever that pushes the ball out of its seat to let the steam through. Started with a 1-3/4" long piece of 1/2" hex bar, and cut the shoulder bolt that keeps the ball in place inside the valve:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5tvidcrev/IMG_0823.jpg)
The turned a shoulder on the remaining part of the bar, which will go through the hole in the mainfold. The center hole takes the bolt turned out first. The length of this part of the valve is the same as the thickness of the manifold, so that the bolt will clamp it in place and seal the joint with some gasket material.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/u93qeeqbr/IMG_0824.jpg)
Drilled the through hole the rest of the way through the bar. The shoulder between the wider start of the hole and this through-hole will form the shoulder for the ball.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/aibi8jglj/IMG_0826.jpg)
The turned the part around, and drilled the other end for the o-ring retainer.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/jc2epn3k7/IMG_0827.jpg)
Next, over to the mill to drill/tap the 2-56 holes for screws to hold the o-ring retainer in place:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/i4ogxfdfr/IMG_0828.jpg)
and then mill a slot for the bar to be silver soldered on top. This bar will have a hinge point for the actuating lever.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/hpd74erif/IMG_0829.jpg)
Drilled/tapped a hole in the opposite side which will get a union fitting to go to the pipe to the whistle itself.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ha1xbe5l3/IMG_0830.jpg)
Back to the lathe to turn the ring around the shank which will let the steam from the manifold into the bore regardless of how the valve is oriented. There is a hole from this ring into the center (did not show in the photo, on other side).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/lzwgdqlzb/IMG_0833.jpg)
Here is how the valve will be mounted on the manifold.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/yom5jo2pz/IMG_0832.jpg)
Next steps: make the o-ring retainer and the union fitting, then silver solder the top hinge bar in place, and make the plunger and actuating lever.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Johnmcc69 on July 22, 2017, 03:12:26 AM
Nice work on the manifold.
What is the yellow tank in the last pic? Is that the butane gas?

 John
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 22, 2017, 03:25:22 AM
Nice work on the manifold.
What is the yellow tank in the last pic? Is that the butane gas?

 John
Yes, that's the butane tank for the burner. Its just set there for now, but it's about where it will go. I'm using off the shelf parts for the tank, burner, etc. from gauge 1 locos. It should have enough oomph for this boiler, but if not I can upgrade the burner. The tank will be hidden under a fake woodpile that can be lifted off in one piece.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 22, 2017, 11:21:01 PM
No new work on the model today, we had our monthly fun run at the pond with the RC boats (mainly subs, some surface boats, usually called 'targets' there too). Here is my little Delphin minisub sneaking in to sink the surface fleet...
(https://s5.postimg.org/44mvonsnb/IMG_0102_-_Delphin_And_Fleet.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on July 23, 2017, 12:24:56 AM
Hopefully there were no casualties  ;) Looks like a beautiful day at the pond though. Did the shop elves behave themselves in your absence??

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 23, 2017, 12:33:46 AM
Hopefully there were no casualties  ;) Looks like a beautiful day at the pond though. Did the shop elves behave themselves in your absence??

Bill

The fleet was close to shore, so the passengers got away easilly...   :ROFL:

The shop elves came along, took turns at the controls too. They kept chasing the geese though...

The weather was ideal, not too hot, enough overcast to keep it comfortable. This was the first outing for my little Delphin sub (modelled after an experimental WW-II german one-man sub) after solving a persistant slow leak problem - now runs about an hour or so on one battery pack with no need to let the water back out every 10 minutes. Very maneuverable, like flying a slow stunt plane. We have a show over in Skaneatlas coming up, then a big multi-day meet in Carmel Indiana in August at a giant reflecting pool (concrete pond) thats always a lot of fun, RC subs from all over the US and Canada show up for that one.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: steamboatmodel on July 23, 2017, 03:12:22 PM
Warn the shop elves that you haven't lived until you have ha a Goose use the deck of your model as an aircraft carrier.
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 23, 2017, 04:09:12 PM
Warn the shop elves that you haven't lived until you have ha a Goose use the deck of your model as an aircraft carrier.
Gerald.

Better than your head, I suppose, but not a lot better!   :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on July 23, 2017, 04:21:31 PM
Chris I hope you took your fly rod with you, nice looking lake. I use to be into R/C boating and made several boats out of aluminum.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 23, 2017, 08:16:38 PM
Chris I hope you took your fly rod with you, nice looking lake. I use to be into R/C boating and made several boats out of aluminum.

The fish in that pond are pretty small, and the place is so full of goose poo that it puts you off the fish anyway...!

I actually get a perfect fish every time I go fishing.... at the restaraunt... after ordering the Haddock!   :facepalm:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 24, 2017, 05:37:15 PM
Continuing on with the plumbing parts, got the whistle valve completed. Uses a 5/32" stainless ball bearing and spring as a check valve, with a plunger pushed by the outside lever to open the valve.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/i1wblusw7/IMG_0834.jpg)
Also made up the dummy whistle for the steam dome, and the fitting to hold the 60# safety valve (Weebee brand).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mp6z1d5mv/IMG_0836.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/50f89qtvr/IMG_0837.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 24, 2017, 11:42:16 PM
I just finished up designing the functional whistle itself (will be 4" long, 3/4" diameter, and sit under the firebox) so I can start on making it. Getting close to having all the pipework made up, so I can assemble and seal everything, and add the insulation around the boiler.

Then, went over to the Mystic Seaport website to check on the Sabino rebuild, they have a new update on the shipyard blog showing the final wrapup on the steamer, it goes back in use next month. One nice thing to see (as a modeller who has been through the process, though on a MUCH smaller scale), was a set of videos of the engineers tweaking the valves to get the engine running again. Its not just us that goes through all the trial and error, the big guys have to go through it too!

https://www.mysticseaport.org/shipyard/2017/07/sabino-under-way/ (https://www.mysticseaport.org/shipyard/2017/07/sabino-under-way/)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on July 25, 2017, 12:02:06 AM
Those are some great pictures Chris, but I have to say, the guy doing the wood turning with gloves on is scary as hell!! A definite NO-NO!!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 25, 2017, 12:22:07 AM
Those are some great pictures Chris, but I have to say, the guy doing the wood turning with gloves on is scary as hell!! A definite NO-NO!!!

Bill
Professional doesn't always mean smart!


The really fun tools they have there are the mast lathe, with a powered cutter wheel on an auto feed carriage, and the shipsaw, a giant bandsaw where the table stays horizontal and the saw tilts to the side as the wood is fed through, to do rolling bevels on ship frames. Fun tools!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on July 25, 2017, 12:28:13 AM
Quote
Professional doesn't always mean smart!

Obviously

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 25, 2017, 12:57:06 AM
Quote
Professional doesn't always mean smart!

Obviously

Bill
Not obvious to some professionals...  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 25, 2017, 03:22:55 PM
Well, you can't whistle while you work without a whistle, so lets whistle one up....

Started with some 3/4" copper tubing, and turned an end cap and the base cap out of brass to be a snug fit in the ends of the tube.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ywfawo0xz/IMG_0841.jpg)
Then milled a 1/8" slot across the end of the base cap, centered on the part that fits into the tube, and deep enough to meet the cross hole to bring in the air. This will distribute the steam from the hole to the shallow slot that leads into the tube. That slot was cut .007" deep, in several passes across the end. Between each pass the part was turned a few degrees in the vise, so that the final slot was about .400 wide.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/k84ell0hz/IMG_0843.jpg)
Then, a hole was drilled from the back of the cap through to the cross slot (this will be plugged with a 4-40 screw).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3zo6c3rnr/IMG_0845.jpg)
Then another hole drilled in to meet that one from the side, and then that hole widened out for the M7 union fitting.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/eqbsxs5af/IMG_0846.jpg)
The mouth was milled on the side of the tube, leaving an arc at the far end.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/50of188nb/IMG_0847.jpg)
and the near end squared up with the tube turned upright.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3tah90iiv/IMG_0848.jpg)
Here is the back hole end plugged, and the union fitting screwed and loctited into the side hole.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gw63sa8qv/IMG_0850.jpg)
Then I was able to test the sound by blowing into the union fitting. The sound was a bit raspy and uneven, so I experimented a bit by covering the far end of the hole in the tube, and found that by reducing the length I got a nice clear note. So, cut a small bit of copper sheet and attached that, sounds much better now.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/65ih6lv47/IMG_0849.jpg)
Just need to make up some piping and some ferrules for the unions, and I can start assembling things for real...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on July 26, 2017, 01:26:04 AM
Nice Chris. Should sound even better with steam too. Would love to hear it, maybe a short audio file or something.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 26, 2017, 01:36:00 AM
Nice Chris. Should sound even better with steam too. Would love to hear it, maybe a short audio file or something.

Bill
Hi Bill,

Should have seen that one coming. Or heard it coming, I guess! Here is a short video clip, with absolutely no action, but you can hear the sound from the whistle. I don't have it hooked up for the air compressor yet,  so this is still the sound from one lung-pressure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jwy23S_1kWI

I spent some time earlier figuring out the bends on the tubing for the displaement lubricator, to lead from the output of the throttle valve to the steam pipe leading forward through the boiler, and got it pretty close to the drawing I made. Then, the brain far became obvious, when I held it up to the backhead, and realized the cap was directly under the whistle valve, so it would be impossible to get at and add oil.   :Mad:
Oh well, good thing copper tube can be re-annealed and re-bent many times!  Moose-pucky! Swarf-brain! and lots of other choice phrases...
  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on July 26, 2017, 01:44:44 AM
Sweet!!!  Thanks.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on July 26, 2017, 01:45:49 AM
Chris, that sounds great with just lung power, should be louder and maybe a pitch or two higher under pressure.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 26, 2017, 01:47:32 AM
Chris, that sounds great with just lung power, should be louder and maybe a pitch or two higher under pressure.
It should sound simaler to the one on my Shay, which is almost the same size. Quite a bit louder under real pressure - I've been called a blowhard at some meetings, but I'm not up to 60psi, unless I get REALLY mad...!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 27, 2017, 07:20:47 PM
The chuffer arrived from Summerlands today, wish I could steam up for a proper test but I still have a few more pipe bits to make first. So, I made a short video of it while running on air. Its a bit hard to add the chuffer while videoing, so I did it the other way round, started with it in place then removed it to show the difference. The camera doesn't pick up the reverb effect that well, but you get the idea of it. The end of the video is a compressed air test of the whistle too.

[youtube1]https://youtu.be/H_OY-U4xxbc[/youtube1]

Edit: Forgot to include the picture of the chuffer unit. It slips down over the exhaust tube so that the unit is inside the stack, where it acts as a resonator to increase the sound of the exhaust. Under steam, these sound even better than with just compressed air.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7bwmn68jr/IMG_0857.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on July 27, 2017, 08:41:50 PM
Chris--I have never heard of a "chuffer" before. What does it actually do, and did full size train steam engines have them?
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 27, 2017, 09:01:30 PM
Chris--I have never heard of a "chuffer" before. What does it actually do, and did full size train steam engines have them?
They are made by a company in the UK called Summerlands, to add a better Chuff Chuff sound to small model live steam locos. They are sort of like a whistle in shape, and when placed on the end of the exhaust tube in the stack they act as a resonator to increase the volume of the sound. They come in a variety of sizes, tuned to the engine and stack size. Mechanically easy to make, the art is in sizing them. They now have a version with adjustment to the sound. I have them on my factory made G1 locos, sound change is quite dramatic. I made one for my Corliss twin, without it it is almost silent.
Real locomotives don't have them, the exhaust flow is heavy enough to make the sound, and they don't care about that anyway. The chuffer is just for sound.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on July 27, 2017, 10:21:46 PM
Thank you Chris--One more thing I didn't know about explained.--Brian
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on July 28, 2017, 12:00:31 AM
Amazing how much difference the chuffer makes. I love it!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 28, 2017, 01:39:09 AM
And when it is running on steam it should have even more pop to the sound.


Not too long now, just a bunch of little things to finish up.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 28, 2017, 03:04:21 AM
And when it is running on steam it should have even more pop to the sound.


Not too long now, just a bunch of little things to finish up.
Just wrote up the final punch list, only 15 items on it to complete the model, assuming nothing comes up in steam trials. Looking like completion in August, not bad for starting it all last October!



Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 28, 2017, 03:10:10 AM
Wow, Chris!  I'm going to be following you on this one for sure!  :popcorn:

If you choose to put out a set of drawings, or even a book based on your build, I'll buy it from you!

You don't think small, do you Chris?  This is going to be fascinating!
Kim
And to answer Kim's post nbr 2 on this thread from last October, yes I have been working on a book for this build, with full plans and photos. No guarantees that the deal will go through, or when, but if it doesn't work out I will still publish plans for it somehow. Plans are all complete and just the last couple chapters to finish off.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on July 28, 2017, 06:30:44 AM
That's pretty cool Chris! Very exciting about the potential book deal :)  :ThumbsUp:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on July 28, 2017, 09:55:15 AM
Hi Chris,

I am sure like all others that are following this build, quite anxious to see it completed and running and just hear it in operation. However, I also hate to seen it end.

Thomas
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 28, 2017, 11:39:17 AM
Hi Chris,

I am sure like all others that are following this build, quite anxious to see it completed and running and just hear it in operation. However, I also hate to seen it end.

Thomas
Yeah, hate to see this one end too, but there are several more project ideas in the queue at all times!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 28, 2017, 12:16:05 PM
Catching up on some work from yesterday - got the floorboards and seat at the front of the hauler made up:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/446dyq7d3/IMG_0865.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/nbtivbpon/IMG_0868.jpg)

Also was experimenting with how to make the ladder that goes over the top of the saddle tank, to give access to the fill tube at the top. The side rails are flat bar stock, and need to arch over with the wide dimension curved. At first I was thinking it would need some sort of bending jig, but turns out the bar took the side set with no problem:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6zjh5lbd3/IMG_0866.jpg)
Just used a pair of heavy pliers, bending it a bit every 1/8" or so, and it took the curve very easily. Just needed to take a couple tweaks to get the bar to lay flat again, I was expecting it to twist more. Made up a full circle, then cut the two halves apart. The crossbars and standoffs from the tank will be riveted on.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ofdn7aabr/IMG_0867.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 28, 2017, 06:56:11 PM
More done on the ladders for the saddle tank and the cab today. The steps were bent up out of the same stock as the side rails, and everything was drilled for some 1mm brass rivets.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/z6jnbxhhj/IMG_0869.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/i22c999l3/IMG_0870.jpg)
The steps are rivetted onto the side rails, still need to fit the short stand-offs that hold the ladder out from the tank.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/u962qtfif/IMG_0872.jpg)
Test fit on the tank...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rcj1qj9on/IMG_0873.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 28, 2017, 06:58:52 PM
Also, the 4" diameter version of the front boiler nameplate that I had printed at Shapeways came today - looks very good. The texture of the plastic looks a lot like the pebbly surface of sand-cast iron. The detail is quite good, all the edges nice and crisp - all around a successful test. I am thinking of springing for a full size version in metal, would make a nice wall hanging near the model when it is on display. The metal versions get a bit pricey, may just do the plastic larger....
EDIT: Just looked at the prices for it in metal for full size - no way, much too expensive!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/n24duy4lj/IMG_0875.jpg)
For comparison, here is the real one:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wy5guladj/DSC_4310b.jpg)
The printed one just needs some paint on the surface of the letters to match...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 30, 2017, 02:26:01 AM
No time for the shop today, our local submarine squadron got invited to an antique boat show over in Skaneateles, to run with the local model boat club. Great collection of old Chris-Craft, Garwood, etc powerboats...
Should be back in the shop tomorrow to finish off the ladders on the hauler.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on July 30, 2017, 03:12:01 AM
No casualties among the surface vessels I hope. Would be a shame to blow a Chris-Craft out of the water ::)

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 30, 2017, 03:32:56 AM
No casualties among the surface vessels I hope. Would be a shame to blow a Chris-Craft out of the water ::)

Bill
They did have one boat hit some debris out in the lake, it was able to make it back to the launch before sinking though. Wasn't one of our torpedoes, promise!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 30, 2017, 03:53:43 PM
Ladders are made and installed:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/deiylmz0n/IMG_0876.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/4ks24jc1z/IMG_0877.jpg)
Just need some paint.
Speaking of which, gave the display nameplate a coat of gold colored paint on the tops of the letters to match the original:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/uuhq12nd3/IMG_0878.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on July 30, 2017, 06:07:10 PM
Both the ladders and nameplate look great Chris!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on July 30, 2017, 08:15:45 PM
Just some more awesome work Chris. The name plate is just great. Ladders add a nice touch to and already beautiful made machine. Damn Dog your good and .......I.........like......... :Love:


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 30, 2017, 09:31:08 PM
Thanks guys!

A couple more bits of mini-blacksmithing, the grab handle and door-holder-opener-thingy, whatever it is called...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3w0u2mjt3/IMG_0879.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: steam guy willy on July 30, 2017, 10:46:22 PM
Hi, you could have gold leafed it!!!!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 30, 2017, 11:31:20 PM
Hi, you could have gold leafed it!!!!

I've gold leafed a few carvings in the past, what a pain in the butt it is! The least little air current and the leaf blows around. I'll stick with the paint for something like this lettering!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/r1fu2debr/P0000469.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rs8k85gp3/IMG_3265a.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: steam guy willy on July 31, 2017, 01:37:58 AM
Wow they are looking good, i was in germany in the early seventies and was watching a chap gold leafing a statue. I then guessed how the phrase , Streets paved with gold,   came from !!  Cool stuff going on here,  Willy.......
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: gbritnell on July 31, 2017, 01:51:28 AM
Man oh man, that thing is just over the top, Chris!
gbritnell
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 31, 2017, 02:33:57 AM
Thanks guys, I keep thinking that there are just a few days till firing it up, but the list of little bits it needs to go on before them doesn't seem to shrink very fast! I needed to get the boiler insulation on before the final piping, so that went on today. Ceramic sheet insulation, wrapped and wired in place. That needs some paint on the exposed areas. I stacked more sheets inside the saddle tank shell. Also making the ironwork for holding the woodbox slat panels in place.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on August 02, 2017, 03:12:23 AM
Wow Chris. I've been reading along on your build and finally got caught up. There for a while I'd read a page of your thread and then realize that two more had been added!  :o

I must say that I'm totally blown away with how much you've accomplished in a relatively short time. Reading your posts it seems like you're following a set of plans and instructions and then I remember that you're also drawing the plans and writing the instructions as you go along!  :praise2: And now I find out that you may have a book in the offing!  :whoohoo:

You and your elves have done a fantastic job. I'm happy to be caught up and riding along to the finish.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 02, 2017, 03:57:06 AM
Great to have you along for the ride Jim!


This week I've been getting ready for the big RC sub meet coming up, and getting a couple more chapters written, up to the middle of the boiler, then one on the cab and I will be caught up. Lots of work to get it to show the process while including details of the original and it's use to keep it interesting. I hope it comes to pass and gets published, very different than the technical papers and patents that I used to write! Designing up the parts in 3d to generate the plans really makes you understand the shapes and how to make them, a very different process for me but I like it.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 02, 2017, 12:22:01 PM
Last weekend the logging museum up in Maine had their summer Heavy Metal event, and had a visit from a later gasoline powered Lombard log hauler owned by the Breton brothers. I was not able to make it up for the event, but the museum posted these two videos. Some of you IC engine guys ought to build one of these! They use a similar track system to the steam version, but it is smaller and more refined.

Gas Lombard description by Terry Harper:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TsS69_5u4w

Gas and steam Lombards running together:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEPWplgIAec
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on August 02, 2017, 01:35:14 PM
Hi Chris, sorry that you could not attend that event. That had to be something special to see and hear both of those machines in operation. The second video sent chills up and down my body.

Thanks,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 02, 2017, 01:51:13 PM
Hi Chris, sorry that you could not attend that event. That had to be something special to see and hear both of those machines in operation. The second video sent chills up and down my body.

Thanks,
Thomas
I'll be there for the two day event in the fall, should be running the model near the real one. Can't wait!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on August 02, 2017, 01:56:19 PM
Very nice videos. Thanks for re-posting them here CHris. The IC engine sure did simplify things a lot didn't it?

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 02, 2017, 02:34:24 PM
Very nice videos. Thanks for re-posting them here CHris. The IC engine sure did simplify things a lot didn't it?

Bill
Sure did. Amazing how quickly things evolved in vehicles around then.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on August 02, 2017, 03:28:54 PM
Not to mention instant power, no waiting on the fire and boiler pressure buildup!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 02, 2017, 03:51:45 PM
Not to mention instant power, no waiting on the fire and boiler pressure buildup!!

Bill
I recently purchased a copy of the 1925 catalog from the Willamette Iron Works, which made steam donkey engines and logging winches for the Pacific Northwest logging industry. They also sold gas and electric versions, but the steam ones sold well long after gas ones came out, since they could run for long periods way out in the mountains with no need to truck in fuel and were very dependable. Interesting how things coexisted, depending on the local conditions. It has pictures of the donkey engines winching themselves through the woods and even across creeks.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: RonGinger on August 02, 2017, 05:05:24 PM
While the Lombard driving was going on, in the mill building with the water wheel, the machines were getting in some work and setup, by Brian Barker (the owner of the Mach CNC software business). Brian did some of the early work on the steam Lombard while he was at the University of Maine.

[youtube1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyzI497E5Cs&feature=youtu.be[/youtube1]
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on August 02, 2017, 05:15:12 PM
Boy OSHA would have had 3 heart attacks walking into a building like that....he he

Real men and real machines.

Thomas
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 02, 2017, 06:04:03 PM
Nice to see those machines going, hope they run them at the show this fall. Not quite as detailed as John's diorama though....  :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 02, 2017, 11:44:28 PM
Just trying to catch up Chris and I'm not doing a good job. There's so much!

I caught the section on the whistle. Nice!

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 03, 2017, 12:02:28 AM
Just trying to catch up Chris and I'm not doing a good job. There's so much!

I caught the section on the whistle. Nice!
Good to see you back around Carl!  I'm not going to be posting much for a few days, got an RC submarine event starting so you will have till Tuesday to get caught up! Coming down to the final handfull of parts for the build, I lost track of the number of parts along about 2500 of them...!

One thing done today, made up the lamp for the front of the boiler. The main housing was turned from brass bar, then the base roughed in and bolted in place. The side panels were bolted on for silver soldering, using the extra height of the base piece that I left for now:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/x5hmaqtvr/IMG_0880.jpg)
After soldering, the base was trimmed back, and the piece painted. The reflector was painted with silver paint, and the glass front is a round glass microscope slide cover - handy things, they come in several diameters, but are super thin so are fragile. It was JB Weld'ed in place, hope it holds up.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dowwo7yrr/IMG_0882.jpg)
The arm in the left side of the picture is the holder for the whistle pull - the steersman and the engineer use the whistle to communicate start/stop events, so both of them need access to the rope. One line goes from the whistle, back to the cab, and through a pulley to take it to the front. The other goes directly into the cab for the engineer.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on August 03, 2017, 03:17:37 AM
Not to mention instant power, no waiting on the fire and boiler pressure buildup!!

Bill
I recently purchased a copy of the 1925 catalog from the Willamette Iron Works, which made steam donkey engines and logging winches for the Pacific Northwest logging industry. They also sold gas and electric versions, but the steam ones sold well long after gas ones came out, since they could run for long periods way out in the mountains with no need to truck in fuel and were very dependable. Interesting how things coexisted, depending on the local conditions. It has pictures of the donkey engines winching themselves through the woods and even across creeks.

There's a story out here of a donkey winching itself across the Mckenzie River ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McKenzie_River_(Oregon) ) A head of stream was built up and the thing turned loose. When the firebox went under water, there was still enough steam to pull itself on across the river.

Willamette Iron Works was in Portland Oregon.........about 60 miles from where I live.

Jim

PS: The lantern looks good Chris.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 03, 2017, 09:49:36 AM
Not to mention instant power, no waiting on the fire and boiler pressure buildup!!

Bill
I recently purchased a copy of the 1925 catalog from the Willamette Iron Works, which made steam donkey engines and logging winches for the Pacific Northwest logging industry. They also sold gas and electric versions, but the steam ones sold well long after gas ones came out, since they could run for long periods way out in the mountains with no need to truck in fuel and were very dependable. Interesting how things coexisted, depending on the local conditions. It has pictures of the donkey engines winching themselves through the woods and even across creeks.

There's a story out here of a donkey winching itself across the Mckenzie River ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McKenzie_River_(Oregon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McKenzie_River_(Oregon)) ) A head of stream was built up and the thing turned loose. When the firebox went under water, there was still enough steam to pull itself on across the river.

Willamette Iron Works was in Portland Oregon.........about 60 miles from where I live.

Jim

PS: The lantern looks good Chris.
That catalog has that story, with pictures of it crossing the river!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on August 04, 2017, 09:42:10 PM
I just ran across this video of a Lombard restoration.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rIQzA7NB0I
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 04, 2017, 10:24:21 PM
Great video, amazing how much they could rescue from so deep in the woods. I saw one where they were pulling out the whole length of tracks.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: tvoght on August 05, 2017, 12:24:33 AM
Chris,
 If I understood correctly, I believe you'll be at the Fun Run tomorrow. I plan on driving over there tomorrow AM to see what goes on. I read something that said the Indy Admirals will be sailing their scale boats in the morning.  I'll try to find you and say hi.

--Tim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 05, 2017, 03:18:28 AM
Chris,
 If I understood correctly, I believe you'll be at the Fun Run tomorrow. I plan on driving over there tomorrow AM to see what goes on. I read something that said the Indy Admirals will be sailing their scale boats in the morning.  I'll try to find you and say hi.

--Tim
Excellent! We got the tent and tables up today, I was running my minisub this afternoon, we'll be there about 7 or 8am, there all day (and most of Sunday). Weather looks perfect, usually 90s, today it was 67! Hope to see you then.
Chris
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on August 05, 2017, 03:32:37 AM
Chris,
 If I understood correctly, I believe you'll be at the Fun Run tomorrow. I plan on driving over there tomorrow AM to see what goes on. I read something that said the Indy Admirals will be sailing their scale boats in the morning.  I'll try to find you and say hi.

--Tim
Excellent! We got the tent and tables up today, I was running my minisub this afternoon, we'll be there about 7 or 8am, there all day (and most of Sunday). Weather looks perfect, usually 90s, today it was 67! Hope to see you then.
Chris

I'm looking forward to the pictures!  ;)

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 05, 2017, 03:49:57 AM
Chris,
 If I understood correctly, I believe you'll be at the Fun Run tomorrow. I plan on driving over there tomorrow AM to see what goes on. I read something that said the Indy Admirals will be sailing their scale boats in the morning.  I'll try to find you and say hi.

--Tim
Excellent! We got the tent and tables up today, I was running my minisub this afternoon, we'll be there about 7 or 8am, there all day (and most of Sunday). Weather looks perfect, usually 90s, today it was 67! Hope to see you then.
Chris

I'm looking forward to the pictures!  ;)

Jim
Should be posted Tuesday.   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 08, 2017, 06:07:44 PM
This past week I was off to Carmel Indiana for the big RC submarine event, couple dozen modellers from around the US and Canada showed up for a few days of sub running and joke telling. Amazing weather for Indiana in August, it was 67 for a high on Friday, only about 75 on the weekend, usually it is in at least th mid 90's.

Here are a few pics from the tent and the pond:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xgveciitj/IMG_0824a.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/tn1y3d1hj/IMG_0825a.jpg)
Skipjack, I think
(https://s5.postimg.cc/cg5crlfbb/IMG_0840a.jpg)
My Alfa
(https://s5.postimg.cc/o7t82e9xj/IMG_0846a.jpg)
internals of some of them - the clear plastic tubes are the watertight compoartments, rest of hull free floods. Some have ballast tanks and pumps.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/nxlpj1vbb/IMG_0851a.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/ojaof5qdj/IMG_0853a.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/eflyj09mv/IMG_0854a.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/rozvj3ydj/IMG_0856a.jpg)
Part of the fleet in drydock
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3wqk7kwcn/IMG_0857a.jpg)
One made from bow of and stern of an originally longer sub:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gzhld3x6v/IMG_0858a.jpg)
Greg's steampunk sub, the CopperTop
(https://s5.postimg.cc/t031du4lj/IMG_0865a.jpg)
My little Delphin:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/nh53acwxz/IMG_0867a.jpg)
flying sub from Journey To The Bottom Of the Sea tv show:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/h4py0itvr/IMG_0872a.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on August 08, 2017, 06:44:07 PM

Wow, that is a lot of subs. Sure glad you had such pretty weather.

Thomas
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on August 08, 2017, 07:28:27 PM
Great pictures Chris, Thanks for posting them. Lots of nice looking work in those for sure!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on August 08, 2017, 08:02:27 PM
Very cool, Chris!

The Flying sub gave me flash backs!  Had anybody made the Seaview for it to dock in?  :Lol:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 08, 2017, 08:18:31 PM
Very cool, Chris!

The Flying sub gave me flash backs!  Had anybody made the Seaview for it to dock in?  :Lol:
Kim
There were two seaviews there, one was about 6 or 7 feet long! I have a kit for one, not built yet. I won one of the Moebius flying sub kits in the raffle the first day. Moebius models makes a couple versions of the Seaview, I have their 39-inch kit. Other makers have made them lots bigger, usually in fiberglass. Most of the subs there this week were in the 3'-4' range, smallest was about a foot long - tight space for a radio and motor. My Delphin minisub is 19" long, the Alfa 49".

One of the Canadian guys was launching missles from his boomer, from underwater! Small Estes-type rocket motors in a molded shell. The hatches on the deck open, underneat the rocket is in a waterproof cover, fires up out of the water, another 20-30 feet in the air. Very cool. Others have compressed-air or co2 powered torpedoes, none fired this week.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 08, 2017, 08:19:01 PM
Oh, yeah, Lombard model - should be back on it tomorrow!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: tvoght on August 08, 2017, 08:27:30 PM
Nice photos, Chris. Glad the weather turned out so nice for you. It was good to meet you out there Saturday. Neat stuff!

--Tim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 08, 2017, 08:40:58 PM
Nice photos, Chris. Glad the weather turned out so nice for you. It was good to meet you out there Saturday. Neat stuff!

--Tim
Glad you were able to stop out and see us!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: kvom on August 08, 2017, 09:00:20 PM
Any of those subs have working torpedos?

Maybe you could make one powered by steam.   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on August 08, 2017, 09:42:07 PM
Nice pictures and looks like a great time was had by all. Thanks for posting.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 08, 2017, 09:50:11 PM
Any of those subs have working torpedos?

Maybe you could make one powered by steam.   :Lol:
None that day, but there are ones that run off co2 cartridges. Kevin launched a few volleys of missiles from his boomer.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 08, 2017, 10:53:04 PM
Very cool Chris. Any chance of some videos?

Once I retire, I'll have to come up sometime and join you and your elves antics.
Maybe bring some of T's cookies so you know what a real cookie is.  ;D
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 08, 2017, 11:09:18 PM
Very cool Chris. Any chance of some videos?

Once I retire, I'll have to come up sometime and join you and your elves antics.
Maybe bring some of T's cookies so you know what a real cookie is.  ;D
I didn't take any videos this time, too busy running my subs - was in ghe water pretty much all day long. Others were videoing, including one guy from a quadcopter, will post links when they come around.


So, are you coming to see my antics or the elves antics?! We do egg each other on a lot...   :cheers:


Just realized that the steam pageant in Canandaigua starts tomorrow, am going Thursday morning. More fun!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 09, 2017, 12:11:27 AM
So, are you coming to see my antics or the elves antics?! We do egg each other on a lot...   :cheers:
Just realized that the steam pageant in Canandaigua starts tomorrow, am going Thursday morning. More fun!

That would be the main elf of course.  ;D
Any link to Canandaiqua? I have no idea what that is.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 09, 2017, 12:42:17 AM
So, are you coming to see my antics or the elves antics?! We do egg each other on a lot...   :cheers:
Just realized that the steam pageant in Canandaigua starts tomorrow, am going Thursday morning. More fun!

That would be the main elf of course.  ;D
Any link to Canandaiqua? I have no idea what that is.
Here it is, its at the north end of the lake, couple miles south of the NY thruway. Great event, lots of traction engines trundling around, early gas and Diesel tractors, farm and construction equipment. Big flea market and displays of small engines, some models too. They have a big stationary engine and usually a shingle mill and saw mill.


http://www.pageantofsteam.org

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on August 09, 2017, 12:47:18 AM
That looks like a HUGE showgrounds Chris. Would take a few days just to get around it all  :o

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 09, 2017, 01:03:14 AM
That looks like a HUGE showgrounds Chris. Would take a few days just to get around it all  :o

Bill
Its definitely doable in a day, unless you go through all the tractors in detail. Logs of walking, but weather looks good for it.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 09, 2017, 02:45:40 AM
One of the guys posted this great collection of pictures of the Carmel submarine run.


https://goo.gl/photos/mYVNR6osMQs5PnMv7
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on August 09, 2017, 09:53:52 AM
Looks like a fun time was had by all ... err, except the gentleman in the grey hoodie that seems to be endlessly fiddling with his sub! I know exactly what he is thinking ... "But, it worked perfect this morning on the bench!"

There are a bunch of first class models there.

Tom
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on August 09, 2017, 03:09:22 PM
So, are you coming to see my antics or the elves antics?! We do egg each other on a lot...   :cheers:
Just realized that the steam pageant in Canandaigua starts tomorrow, am going Thursday morning. More fun!

That would be the main elf of course.  ;D
Any link to Canandaiqua? I have no idea what that is.
Here it is, its at the north end of the lake, couple miles south of the NY thruway. Great event, lots of traction engines trundling around, early gas and Diesel tractors, farm and construction equipment. Big flea market and displays of small engines, some models too. They have a big stationary engine and usually a shingle mill and saw mill.


http://www.pageantofsteam.org

Looks a lot like the "Brooks Steam-up" that we have out here about 15 miles from where I live. Great fun!

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 10, 2017, 11:26:52 PM
I went down to the steam show in Canandaigua today, lots of fun there!

Posted a link to photo album and a bunch of videos over in the Shows thread, here is the link:
http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,7300.0.html

So, nothing done on the Lombard today, but yesterday I got the steam supply pipe and whistle pipe made, can start final (I hope) assembly on the steam manifold system next time. Just a few things left to make: burner/tank piping and install, fwd/reverse lever and linkage, the RC install, and the false-top woodpile. Very close!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 11, 2017, 09:11:38 PM
Back in the shop again today, been a while with the trips and shows. I got the pipe fittings complete, and everything installed on the steam manifold, and the whistle installed under the frame (pipe runs down to it, the center of the whistle is supported on the main axle inside the frame rails).
Then started leak testing, found a couple of unions that were leaking, traced it to some tiny runs of silver solder that ran around the nipple fittle on the end of the tube, so got those filed smooth and refit. Right now, it seems to be holding air fairly well, I am letting the thread sealant set up, will try again later on.  If that is good, I will move on to the burner/tank installation...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/nogdbav2f/IMG_0895.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/vfx39uz7r/IMG_0898.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 11, 2017, 11:51:05 PM
Yup - the sealant did the job, just ran the compressor on it and no return of the leaks. Starting to lay out the reverse control lever assembly now...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: kvom on August 12, 2017, 12:51:57 PM
"reverse control lever" - Johnson bar  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnson_Bar_(locomotive)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 12, 2017, 12:56:24 PM
"reverse control lever" - Johnson bar  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnson_Bar_(locomotive (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnson_Bar_(locomotive))


"..., giving the lever the alternate name of the reversing lever....
"

Potato, pahtahto. Two names, same thing....
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 12, 2017, 09:05:42 PM
More on the reverse lever - turned the lever itself, and milled a right-angle bracket for the base. Given the tight space it is in, and that I want to be able to move it by reaching in through the door without removing the cab, I left off the quadrant arm and ratchet handle.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/sb41u3ow7/IMG_0900.jpg)

And here is the linkage up to the control arm on the Stephenson linkage assembly - since it comes in from the back rather than the side, the extra set of control arms were used on the Lombard.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/czu8thrk7/IMG_0903.jpg)
View of the cab with all the ironwork bits in place, like the drop links which hold the side panels in place:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3tby67mbr/IMG_0902.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: sco on August 12, 2017, 10:31:09 PM
From those shots it's really hard to tell the scale - could be the real thing!

Seems like only yesterday you were making those tracks too :-)

Simon.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 12, 2017, 10:40:45 PM
From those shots it's really hard to tell the scale - could be the real thing!

Seems like only yesterday you were making those tracks too :-)

Simon.
Thanks Simon!  Doesn't seem like it has been better part of a year already! Time flies when you're having fun! (Or as Kermit said, Times fun when you're eating flies!)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on August 12, 2017, 11:38:51 PM
Looking good Chris. Still watching, just quietly at the moment. Too many irons in the fire...lol.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 13, 2017, 12:27:19 AM
Looking good Chris. Still watching, just quietly at the moment. Too many irons in the fire...lol.

Bill
Pick an iron, take it to the anvil, and make something good from it!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 15, 2017, 01:59:58 AM
Going to be about a week before I can get back to the Hauler and finish it up, another priority interrupt has come up on the boat side of things. Lots going on this summer!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 20, 2017, 11:12:09 PM
Okay, here is why no progress on the Lombard project this last week - I was building a new submarine that I wanted to try out at our local submarine group's fun run today at the pond. I started with a display model made by Moebius Models of the flying sub from the old TV show Voyage To The Bottom Of The Sea (spin-off from movie of same name). This is a small model, about 13" across, that is just big enough for a good RC conversion to a working submarine. I won this kit in the raffle at the big meet in Carmel earlier this month, and wound up with just one week to get it built for today's event.
It has a set of three water tight compartments, one for motor and speed control, one for the battery pack, and one for the radio reciever and servos. The space between the tubes allows water through from the front opening in the hull back to the propeller, which is mounted in a tube and is gimballed to allow it to pivot left/right as well as up/down - this is the only control of the sub since it has no moving fins or control surfaces on the outside.
Here is what the inside looks like:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6es37c5af/IMG_0916a.jpg)
and in action at the pond:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/n68tccg5j/IMG_0905a.jpg)

This one is someone else's flying sub, notice the painted ring.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/s8q574pfr/IMG_0912a.jpg)
Here is some video. Running quite well for such a fast build, needs just a little more foam in the right wing to level it out better. Not bad for having its ballast position set in the sink at home!
[youtube1]https://youtu.be/HeHvuwQaHt8[/youtube1]

Now that this event is done, should be back on the Lombard build tomorrow, next up is adding the burner and fuel tank....
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 20, 2017, 11:33:36 PM
You need a hobby Chris.

 :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 20, 2017, 11:42:06 PM
You need a hobby Chris.

 :lolb:
Seventeen hobbies really isn't enough, is it?!
 :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 21, 2017, 12:33:11 AM
You need a hobby Chris.

 :lolb:
Seventeen hobbies really isn't enough, is it?!
 :Lol:

Uh oh...this could get into a 'list your hobbies thread'. A good idea on one side for those looking for a hobby.
A bad idea for those who have a hobby (or more) and don't need the distraction of another.  ;D

I seem to never finish anything.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on August 21, 2017, 05:09:29 AM
That is just pretty cool Chris!  Love the flying sub!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on August 21, 2017, 11:48:38 AM
Hi Chris,
 That brings back OLD  :old: memory's, Now you just need to get it to fly!

Just see we are going to get Sea Quest re-runs......you got one of those tucked away?

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on August 21, 2017, 12:00:04 PM
A tight fit in there, but an interesting idea.

A silly question, but did you make those water tight chambers for the equipment in the sub?

Tom
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 21, 2017, 12:14:34 PM
Hi Chris,
 That brings back OLD  :old: memory's, Now you just need to get it to fly!

Just see we are going to get Sea Quest re-runs......you got one of those tucked away?

Cheers Kerrin
I do have one of the big SeaView kits from the anniversary sale Moebius had a year or two ago, don't have a Sea Quest sub. That was a more organic shape as I recall? The next boat project is going to be a Green Sea Turtle, with articulated flippers and head, will be carving up the wood masters then making moulds from that to cast hull in fiberglass and flippers and head in rubber. That will be this winter.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 21, 2017, 12:19:14 PM
A tight fit in there, but an interesting idea.

A silly question, but did you make those water tight chambers for the equipment in the sub?

Tom
Yes, the WTCs are made from 2" polycarbonate tube and sheet for the endcaps, silicone sheet gaskets, and with brass threaded inserts (cross pinned at the bottom) to take the screws. The through hull fittings for the control rods and drive shaft were made from 303 stainless hex, and have viton o ring seals.

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on August 21, 2017, 01:11:47 PM
Hi Chris,
 Only seen the shorts so far, cant remember back when it was on, but yes it does look a bit organic.

Look forward to the pictures of the turtle!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 21, 2017, 02:08:26 PM
Hi Chris,
 Only seen the shorts so far, cant remember back when it was on, but yes it does look a bit organic.

Look forward to the pictures of the turtle!

Cheers Kerrin
I remember watching the show when it first came out, you should enjoy it. Sort of a Star trek ith dolphins and subs!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 21, 2017, 03:24:17 PM
This morning I got the poker burner, gas regulator, and butane tank installed. The tank is a Regner small tank model 50841, burner is a Roundhouse GBI, and the gas regulator is the Roundhouse REGG. That combination has worked well on my Gauge-1 locos, hope it works as well here too - this boiler is a bit larger, but that burner has been way more than adequate for the smaller G1 boilers.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/v4cf5h87b/IMG_0917.jpg)
I made up a simple adapter for the burner to fit the fire tube, just a stepped ring that fits over the burner tube and inside the fire tube.
The joints for the butane pipes are all Regner's union fittings, silver soldered onto the copper tube, and sealed with Permatex high temp sealant for good measure.

While the sealant is setting, I am working out how/where to mount the RC equipment.
Current plan: Mount the receiver (2.4ghz) and its battery in the woodbox. There will be a servo to control the throttle mounted to the cab floor, and maybe one for the whistle if I can find a good place to mount it. For the steering, things are a little more complex since the steering wheel has a large gear reduction down to the axle. I have a PQ-12 100:1 RC linear actuator from Actuonix with a 20mm throw that I am planning to mount inside the frame rail in front of the engine, connected to the middle of the front axle assembly. This actuator has a very large force so it can handle the effort needed, and is quite small so it will fit inside the frame rail. I think I will make a spring loaded connection to cushion any shock loads from hitting bumps. The gearing back up to the steering wheel moves freely enough that I can turn the axle by hand, and it spins the gears to the steering wheel, so that should take care of itself.

While I could steam it up now and run it (assuming no plumbing problems), without the RC steering in place I would be chasing it around, trying to turn the steering wheel as the model moves - not really a good option! So, will wait till the RC gear is all in and then try it all at once, hopefully sometime this week. Stay tuned!!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on August 21, 2017, 03:57:50 PM
I am just amazed at how much work and effort you have put into this project Chris. Some truly amazing work to watch come together. Dog you are a true craftsman and you have a great vision as to what's next to accomplish. Love watching this project turn into a work of art. Still with you Dog and did I say .....I.........like........ :Love:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 22, 2017, 07:35:11 PM
Got the linear actuator servo installed for the steering - made up a block to hold the back end to the inside of the frame rail, and a clamp to go around the front axle assembly. Works pretty well, should do the job. The photo shows it with the wheels installed, they will be used for the trial run on the driveway, hopefully in a day or two.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kta671t53/IMG_0918.jpg)
Paint is drying on those parts, and the wood frame to hold the servos for the throttle and whistle is also glued up and painted. Next time I'll get that installed, and the servos/radio all hooked up...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 23, 2017, 01:32:49 AM
Well, this evening I got the rest of the radio installed and working, so now it has steering, throttle, and whistle. No woodpile to cover the radio and fuel tank, but I can run the woodbox sides up to obscure them in the meantime. Tomorrow may be the day to give a try at steaming it up - first half of the day is going to be taken up with some big furry elves birthday (guess who!  8) ), later in the afternoon I may get a chance to fire it up and watch it go. If not tomorrow then the next day.

In the meantime, here are some pictures of it all set and ready to go (also want to get some good portraits of it outside in the sunshine, the newer LED bulbs in the shop are great for work but a bit harsh for good camera work).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/u402ft807/IMG_0919.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/ttx5a7irr/IMG_0922.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/vhrpb479j/IMG_0923.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/61ntyogqv/IMG_0924.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on August 23, 2017, 04:43:12 AM
Hi Chris,
 Looking fantastic!
Nice to see the ruler etc to get an idea of size. Fingers crossed for a successful steam test, oh & the video!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on August 23, 2017, 05:09:13 AM
That really looks great, Chris!
I'll bet you're exited to give her the first steam-up!   And if you're not, there's a whole bunch of us who are!  :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:

Lets see it go!

And you won't forget the video, right? :)
Kim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: stevehuckss396 on August 23, 2017, 11:41:48 AM
Awesome project. I was watching along from the first post. Made my day seeing the photos of the completed project.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on August 23, 2017, 12:13:05 PM
Just amazing Chris and I'm sure the pictures don't do it justice. Looking forward to the first run!!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: vcutajar on August 23, 2017, 12:22:21 PM
That looks really great Chris.  Best of luck with the steam-up.

Vince
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on August 23, 2017, 07:55:04 PM
So, now you need a wee log wagon behind it, with a radio controlled log loader near the mini wood pile, so you can bring in the firewood without getting cold.

Looks great and I am sure it will run well.

Tom
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 23, 2017, 08:36:02 PM
So, now you need a wee log wagon behind it, with a radio controlled log loader near the mini wood pile, so you can bring in the firewood without getting cold.

Looks great and I am sure it will run well.

Tom
Last spring I picked up a copy of a book from the University of Maine that has plans in the back for the log sleds and the Rutter they used to maintain the ice trails, maybe this winter I'll get those made, mostly wood so a quick build.


Just home, and assuming that the storm clouds overhead pass by, am getting ready to try steaming up... Update later!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: scc on August 23, 2017, 09:17:25 PM
Absolutely AWESOME :NotWorthy: can't wait to see it in steam,             Terry
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 23, 2017, 10:29:55 PM
Thanks guys!

It was overcast but dry, which was good for photos of a black painted engine, so I got some portraits first, then brought out the tools/water/oil/radio/fuel to steam it up, and got it all loaded and ready to go.

The burner lit right off, and it took a bit of experimenting to find a good setting for it. Since the firetube has so many cross tubes in a spiral pattern, I could not see the flame directly so I was working by the sound (these poker bruners have a bit of a growl to them). At first, I thought it was not lit since I could not feel much heat at the stack, but it turned out that the cross tubes were just soaking up so much heat - a good thing!

It took about 10 or 12 minutes to get the boiler hot, which is not bad considering that it is holding just over a liter of water at the partial fill level and a lot of copper - the cross tubes and the ceramic insulation did their jobs quite well.

Then the not so great news - turns out that the union fitting from the main steam supply pipe, which runs from the steam dome to the valve manifold, has a leaky joint. I had trouble with getting it to seal right when air testing it, but thought it was sorted, turned out not to be. As the water boiled, it turned into a tiny jet of steam there, tried tightening it but that did not help - I am suspecting that either the seat or the ferrule have a flaw in the shape, and it wont seat properly all the way around.

The good news to the bad news is that this is a simple part, should be able to repair or remake it in short order. That turned out to be a good breaking point anyway, just after bringing everything back indoors the storm front finally made it here, and it is pouring rain. So, another try tomorrow!

I had been worried that the burner was going to be undersized, since it was designed for a Gauge 1 loco with a much smaller capacity boiler, but it puts out plenty of heat. On the G1 locos, the burner is barely ticking over, for this one I turned it up and got the boiler up to temp pretty quick.

Anyway, here are some pictures of the model outside:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rm2pxyk07/DSC_6009.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/lmeyuaz7r/DSC_6011.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/jhunmpm4n/DSC_6025.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on August 24, 2017, 12:12:46 AM
Great outdoor shots Chris, shame about the union but just a minor kink.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 24, 2017, 01:11:35 AM
Great outdoor shots Chris, shame about the union but just a minor kink.

Bill
Yup - not a big deal, something like that was bound to need a tweak!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: tvoght on August 24, 2017, 01:25:57 AM
The model looks fantastic Chris. Happy birthday!

--Tim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on August 24, 2017, 01:58:13 AM
She looks nice out in the daylight Chris!

Dave
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: ShopShoe on August 24, 2017, 01:50:54 PM
Nice. I've been following this but the completion to this point kind of snuck up on me. It's great to see it outside. I can't wait for the video of it moving.

Congratulations,

ShopShoe
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on August 24, 2017, 04:10:40 PM
That is one impressive looking machine Chris. You do us proud there Dog and I am looking forward to seeing this baby ticking over on it's own. Your the man Chris and I enjoyed the ride watching you making and putting all those parts together in a professional manner. I.........do............like.........  :Love:



 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 24, 2017, 04:56:23 PM
Thanks guys!

I remade the supply pipe from the steam dome to the valve manifold, no leaks there anymore.

Another steamup attempt today, got up partial pressure, but ran into a couple new leaks - the whistle valve keeps sticking open, and there is a leak where the fitting goes into the sight glass bushing. Both were fine on air, but when hot I guess things expanded, or steam gets through easier. I got enough pressure to get it to almost run, but it was sucking a lot of water through, which kept it from running properly.

That made me take a closer look - when opening either the throttle or the whistle valve a small amount, it was fine, but opening them farther and it started sucking water up the sight glass and into the manifold. The holes for the sight glass fittings are larger than those in the supply pipe, so it seems to draw on the larger one. Makes sense, path of least resistance and all.

So, I think I need to redo the top fitting for the sight glass, and put in a restrictor with a smaller opening, hope that will do it. Just went back and looked at Kozo's book on the New Shay, and saw that the top tube from the sight glass is only .094" diameter on the inside. Now I know why that is important!

While its apart I'll reseal the bottom fitting, and check on the whistle valve, maybe the spring slipped or something.

Getting closer....
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 24, 2017, 05:56:52 PM
I took the sight glass apart, found the passage from it is about the same size as the steam supply tube. Need to reduce it some, hope that helps.

Also found the sticky spot in the whistle valve, cured it.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on August 24, 2017, 07:51:09 PM
You are close not Chris....keep after it :)

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 24, 2017, 08:39:12 PM
You are close not Chris....keep after it :)

Bill
Yup - always a few little things to sort out on a project this big, not surprising with 2500+ parts!
I have the changes made, will try it again tomorrow morning (too much other stuff this afternoon).

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on August 25, 2017, 03:16:40 AM
This is really fun watching this come together!  :)

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 25, 2017, 04:16:16 AM
This is really fun watching this come together!  :)

Jim
... And apart... And together....  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on August 25, 2017, 05:11:38 AM
This is really fun watching this come together!  :)

Jim
... And apart... And together....  :Lol:

I've always said that "Anything worth doing is worth overdoing"................maybe a spinoff of that would be that "Anything worth doing is worth re-doing"!  :lolb:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: fumopuc on August 25, 2017, 12:16:25 PM
Hi Chris, I am follwing along quietly.
Great pictures of a magnificent model.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 25, 2017, 01:59:53 PM
Did some more fiddling this morning, just using compressed air into the boiler. Even with the restricted top on the sight glass, still getting a lot of movement of water up the glass into the manifold when there is movement of air to the whistle or throttle. The top supply tube is flowing clear, but I am wondering if I am getting a venturi effect or something since the supply tube is coming into the manifold very close to the sight glass connection. I may need to redesign the manifold to split the connections to the sight glass and pressure gauge to a second supply line from the throttle/whistle valves, was not expecting this behavior from it.

 :zap:     :noidea:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: steam guy willy on August 25, 2017, 02:52:03 PM
Looking Really good and i admire the speed with your work, it has taken me since October 2014 since i started on the Beeleigh engine !!awaiting the steam up with excitement !!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 25, 2017, 03:53:45 PM
Looking Really good and i admire the speed with your work, it has taken me since October 2014 since i started on the Beeleigh engine !!awaiting the steam up with excitement !!

Thanks Willy!  Both builds have been very interesting!

I just finished changing the top plug on the water sight gauge to make it extend down and cover the top hole to the manifold, which will prevent the siphon action at the expense of making the sight gauge inoperable, but at least I can do another steam test after lunch today. I reseated the check ball in the whistle valve, and think that very slow leak is fixed too - it was not enough to be a problem but it gave a low moan sound as the steam seeped through (maybe it was lamenting the fact the system was not working right!).
If this test works out, I am going to go back and redesign/remake the top manifold bar. The siphon action was a real surprise, even went back and looked at my G1 locos, which have the same basic setup, but on those the internal diameter of the pipe going by the sight glass connection are much larger. Got to do some mockups and experiments....  :headscratch:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 25, 2017, 08:18:07 PM
Update while waiting for pics/videos to load:

ITS ALIVE!

Not running a marathon yet, buts its walking along nicely....

 :cartwheel:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Admiral_dk on August 25, 2017, 08:26:14 PM
Congratulations - you have a winner runner  :cartwheel: and a very nice one too  :praise2: .... and hail to the elves too  8)

Looking forward to the video  ;)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 25, 2017, 09:58:36 PM
Success! The model is now a real runner!
 :whoohoo:
I still want to go back and modify the valve manifold to get the sight glass working again, and I think that I am going to look into other burners, this one works okay but takes a long time to get the boiler up to temperature, and it can't quite get it up to full pressure and keep it there. This burner was made for a smaller G1 loco, and is not really adequate.

There are others made for larger locos, going to look into those. Any of you know of a good one to look into, that would fit a 1" diameter firetube? The boiler is insulated, and there is more insulation in the saddle tank, plus the extra cross tubes in the fire tube appear to be working very well, the smokebox is not getting too hot, it appears to be transferring the heat to the boiler quite well.

On this run, the pressure was a little lower than I'd like, so it struggled on uphill grades. No big leaks, just a few minor seeps in the steam chest on a couple of the stud ends. Without the sight glass, I stopped before running it too long since I didn't know where the water level was, turned out there was plenty left.

All in all, a very successful test, worthy of some sharing a plate of Mint Chocolate Chip cookies with the shop elves!!

Video clips from the first run:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMiQerqaWWI

And some more portraits of it outside, with the skids on the front axle:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gyvn06d6v/IMG_0949.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/xk39fu4av/IMG_1004.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/feqb1s4sn/IMG_1019.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/xitbmf2h3/IMG_1025.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/nbasa0g93/IMG_1046.jpg)

Closeup of front - is it the model or the real thing?!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ngj4xfcxz/IMG_1009.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: sco on August 25, 2017, 10:10:27 PM
Just awesome Chris!

Thanks for sharing this project with us.

Simon.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on August 25, 2017, 10:17:05 PM
Fantastic Chris. Even more impressive under power!!! I couldn't wait to get home to see the video.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on August 25, 2017, 10:33:00 PM

Beautifully done Chris.

Thomas
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on August 25, 2017, 11:17:22 PM
Phenomenal!

Well worth the trip of following along.

Congratulations Chris.  Go have a victory cookie.


-Bob
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 26, 2017, 12:24:00 AM
Phenomenal!

Well worth the trip of following along.

Congratulations Chris.  Go have a victory cookie.


-Bob

Mmmmm - Yum! Thanks!    :ROFL:

Its been great having all of you along for this build, thanks to everyone!

Still some things to do - reworking the manifold to get the sight glass working again, adjusting the throttle RC linkage, and making the faux woodpile top to hide the tank and RC gear. I also have a query in to my loco parts suppllier about a different burner to get a quicker heatup. If any of you know of a good burner to use, I'd love to hear about it. The firetube is 1" diameter, so the larger ceramic burners wont work, but poker and jet types will - want to stick with butane as a fuel.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on August 26, 2017, 12:46:35 AM
Just super cool, Chris!  As Bill said, the video was worth the wait!

And the beauty shots are outstanding too!

Thank you for sharing your journey with us, it has been a fun ride.
Kim

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: rklopp on August 26, 2017, 02:32:19 AM
Just spectacular! Thank you for sharing the build and results.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on August 26, 2017, 03:19:23 AM
Hi Chris,
 That is cool!

Can hear the elves jumping for joy from here! Bet they are planning a trip down the street.....

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: paul gough on August 26, 2017, 03:46:51 AM
An unusual model manufactured with unusual skill, in an unusually short time, bravo, bravo! Thanks for a years worth of insights. Regards Paul Gough.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on August 26, 2017, 03:54:05 AM
Fantastic.................folks we have a crawler!  :whoohoo:  :praise2: Well done Chris.  :ThumbsUp:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Jo on August 26, 2017, 09:06:20 AM
 8) well done Chris,

Jo
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: fumopuc on August 26, 2017, 09:35:36 AM
Hi Chris,  it looks and sounds like the big one. Fantastic job. I love it.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Plani on August 26, 2017, 10:07:17 AM
Awesome Job Chris  :praise2: :praise2: :praise2:
That turned out beautyful and it went together amazingly quick  :whoohoo:

Plani
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Nick_G on August 26, 2017, 11:50:03 AM
.
Amazing build and really well documented so that others can admire and benefit from your large and varied skill-set.  :)

Soooooooooooooooooooooo. .................. What's next for you to make. You decided.?  ;D

Nick
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: MJM460 on August 26, 2017, 12:02:13 PM
Congratulations Chris, what a great achievement.  I have been quietly following from the beginning, only last October. 

I think you said over 2500 parts, from your first post I think 300 days, about eight parts each day.  Truly amazing, I am doing well if I do one part in a day, and definitely not two days in a row.

I have particularly appreciated your documentation of the process, it has been a master class from the beginning, not only how to set up and make things, but also how to document the process, thank you.  I have learned so much from your work.

Coming in from the Internet free areas now and hope to be back on more thermodynamics soon, perhaps Monday.

MJM460
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 26, 2017, 01:08:15 PM
.
Amazing build and really well documented so that others can admire and benefit from your large and varied skill-set.  :)

Soooooooooooooooooooooo. .................. What's next for you to make. You decided.?  ;D

Nick
Thanks Nick!

The next couple projects are in the woodshop, I have a 80% complete carousel horse that I am finishing for a friend after the man who started it passed away. He had the legs and body are pretty much complete, and I am going to redo the neck/head since his start on it did not come out well at all. After that there is another RC submarine that I want to do, an RC sea turtle! Going to carve masters out of wood, then use those to make moulds for a fiberglass shell and rubber flippers and head, which will be articulated.
As for the next steam project, I have a few in the planning stage - have plans for a Stanley Steamer car engine (and possibly full car) model, and am still working on getting internal pictures and measurements of a Marion Model 91 steam shovel that is sitting outside a quarry about 15 miles from here.
So, no lack of future projects...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 26, 2017, 01:09:49 PM
Congratulations Chris, what a great achievement.  I have been quietly following from the beginning, only last October. 

I think you said over 2500 parts, from your first post I think 300 days, about eight parts each day.  Truly amazing, I am doing well if I do one part in a day, and definitely not two days in a row.

I have particularly appreciated your documentation of the process, it has been a master class from the beginning, not only how to set up and make things, but also how to document the process, thank you.  I have learned so much from your work.

Coming in from the Internet free areas now and hope to be back on more thermodynamics soon, perhaps Monday.

MJM460
The part count went up pretty quickly on the days working on the tracks and especially the chains, which were mass produced with jigs and fixtures. I was still surprised at how quickly the total went up!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 26, 2017, 01:10:37 PM
Hi Chris,
 That is cool!

Can hear the elves jumping for joy from here! Bet they are planning a trip down the street.....

Cheers Kerrin
THATS why they were packing all those cookies in the picnic basket!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 26, 2017, 01:11:41 PM
Phenomenal!

Well worth the trip of following along.

Congratulations Chris.  Go have a victory cookie.


-Bob
I did.  Then several more!   ^-^
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: steamboatmodel on August 26, 2017, 04:38:53 PM
.
Amazing build and really well documented so that others can admire and benefit from your large and varied skill-set.  :)

Soooooooooooooooooooooo. .................. What's next for you to make. You decided.?  ;D

Nick
Thanks Nick!

The next couple projects are in the woodshop, I have a 80% complete carousel horse that I am finishing for a friend after the man who started it passed away. He had the legs and body are pretty much complete, and I am going to redo the neck/head since his start on it did not come out well at all. After that there is another RC submarine that I want to do, an RC sea turtle! Going to carve masters out of wood, then use those to make moulds for a fiberglass shell and rubber flippers and head, which will be articulated.
As for the next steam project, I have a few in the planning stage - have plans for a Stanley Steamer car engine (and possibly full car) model, and am still working on getting internal pictures and measurements of a Marion Model 91 steam shovel that is sitting outside a quarry about 15 miles from here.
So, no lack of future projects...
Whew that is a list of projects, are you going to be posting any any or all of them? The Crawler looks fantastic, are you going to do a run with it in the snow?
Regards,
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 26, 2017, 08:08:05 PM
.
Amazing build and really well documented so that others can admire and benefit from your large and varied skill-set.  :)

Soooooooooooooooooooooo. .................. What's next for you to make. You decided.?  ;D

Nick
Thanks Nick!

The next couple projects are in the woodshop, I have a 80% complete carousel horse that I am finishing for a friend after the man who started it passed away. He had the legs and body are pretty much complete, and I am going to redo the neck/head since his start on it did not come out well at all. After that there is another RC submarine that I want to do, an RC sea turtle! Going to carve masters out of wood, then use those to make moulds for a fiberglass shell and rubber flippers and head, which will be articulated.
As for the next steam project, I have a few in the planning stage - have plans for a Stanley Steamer car engine (and possibly full car) model, and am still working on getting internal pictures and measurements of a Marion Model 91 steam shovel that is sitting outside a quarry about 15 miles from here.
So, no lack of future projects...
Whew that is a list of projects, are you going to be posting any any or all of them? The Crawler looks fantastic, are you going to do a run with it in the snow?
Regards,
Gerald.
Maybe if we get a day with the driveway hard packed, the model is too heavy (30ish pounds) to ride on top. I may have to build one of the rutters they made to shape the road!

I'll probably throw up a pic or two of the carvings along the way, the steam projects get full build logs here.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: vcutajar on August 26, 2017, 11:13:28 PM
Congratulations Chris.  It's just awesome.

Vince
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on August 27, 2017, 12:45:29 AM
Wow Dog this is awesome to see it on it's own power. Bet your one proud dude. Congrats Chris on a work of art.....  :praise2:


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 27, 2017, 01:46:53 AM
Thanks very much everyone, its amazing to finally see it going after so long! I was thrilled that the tracks and chains worked flawlessly.

Still a few more changes to make, tonight I worked out the new layout for the valve/gauge manifold across the back of the boiler - going to use a separate feed for the gauges at the left and the valves on the right to eliminate the siphon action from the sight glass, and going to change out the whistle valve (keeps sticking and leaking). The gauge end of the manifold will tap into the boiler at the water fill bushing at the top/rear of the boiler, while the valves will still feed off the steam dome. I have the old manifold disassembled, and just need to remake the top bar and make a new feed line, the rest of the parts will be re-used. Should have the next test run sometime this comiing week.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Jeff Michel on August 27, 2017, 12:31:13 PM
Congratulations on a job very well done. I've enjoyed every bit of the project.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 27, 2017, 03:52:17 PM
Simply awesome Chris. Super model.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
And you had a good question..."real or model?". It is hard to tell.

I'm hoping you get onto the Stanley Steamer (full car) soon.  :stickpoke:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 27, 2017, 03:58:15 PM
Simply awesome Chris. Super model.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
And you had a good question..."real or model?". It is hard to tell.

I'm hoping you get onto the Stanley Steamer (full car) soon.  :stickpoke:

I thought you were going to build me one in your new shop, as your first project?!   :stickpoke:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: gbritnell on August 27, 2017, 05:04:44 PM
A huge congratulations Chris! What an outstanding build and documentation. Building something as unique as this log hauler is something to really be proud of.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 27, 2017, 05:12:50 PM
Simply awesome Chris. Super model.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
And you had a good question..."real or model?". It is hard to tell.

I'm hoping you get onto the Stanley Steamer (full car) soon.  :stickpoke:

I thought you were going to build me one in your new shop, as your first project?!   :stickpoke:

 :ShakeHead: I'd offer to build in parallel...but you'd be onto your 4th project before I had a cylinder done.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 28, 2017, 01:19:43 AM
Brief update: got the new manifold top bar made that splits the gauge side to its own supply line, and have it reassembled. Just need to make the short tube to the fill bushing, do a leak test, and I can try another steamup. Hope to hear back on a higher capacity burner tomorrow.

On that note, if anyone has a suggestion for a higher capacity butane horizontal poker burner than the Roundhouse GBI, please let me know! The GBI is adequate, but just barely.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 28, 2017, 03:27:46 PM
The new manifold is all in, and I got some gasket material in the top covers on the steam chests, which were leaking a bit. Below are a couple pictures of the new parts. I have some other things on tap today, hope to get another steam test run in tomorrow...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/khqgywojr/IMG_1054.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/xn5z50ifb/IMG_1055.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 29, 2017, 01:32:47 AM
When checking the tightness of the steam chest cover bolts after redoing a gasket, I happened to notice a "you big dummy" item. The linkage from the control lever to the Stephenson linkage was hitting the outside of the insulation wrapping the boiler, keeping it from going to full throw in forward, which probably explains the lack of self starting the other day. It was only going to about half lead. Whoops! 


 :facepalm:


Slight adjustment of the clevis, quick trim on the insulation, and full throw is back.  Should help on the next run!


 :shrug:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on August 29, 2017, 03:08:15 AM
Looking forward to the next run and video, Chris.  :cartwheel:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 29, 2017, 05:51:57 PM
Just did another test run, here are the takeaway's:


New manifold working perfectly.


Steam  chest cover bolts still leaking, going to try some high temp rtv under them.


Change to Stephenson lever link made a big difference.


I think the burner is fine, it just needs more air flow. Pressure came up very slw till I cracked open the smokebox door, then rose quicker. Tried both ways a few times, definitely makes a difference. Going to adjust the openings at the burner base first, then see about opening the bore at the base of the stack.


I got some more videos, will put up something later tonight.


Progress!!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 29, 2017, 11:06:25 PM
Okay, back from a couple other side trips, got a few video clips pulled together from the run today. I apologize for all the background noise, they were taking out a couple trees across the street and grinding them up (you can see the trunk come down in the background about halfway through).
As I mentioned in the previous post, I left the smokebox door open part of the time to improve the draft, I am going to bore out the base of the stack some more to increase the flow of air. I have been talking with my loco parts supplier, he is going to custom make me a new burner with a longer pipe, another row of holes, and a larger nozzle - should help the heat up time immensely.
Here is the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOgGev7fdmc

One of the other side trips today was to meet with the director of the historical society in LeRoy, the next town over, where they have a Marion Model 91 steam shovel sitting outside a quarry. She got me access to copies of a set of photos and measurements of the machinery and shell that were done about 10 years ago, wonderful stuff! Looks like the NEXT big project is going to be this one. Zee, I know you are lobbying for the Stanley steam car, maybe I'll start that one while drawing up the full plans for the Marion... Or not... Send cookies, maybe we can talk about it!   :Argue:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: steamboatmodel on August 30, 2017, 12:15:50 AM
I am surprised the Elves did not hijack the Hauler when they heard that tree go down.
Looking great.
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 30, 2017, 12:41:02 AM
I am surprised the Elves did not hijack the Hauler when they heard that tree go down.
Looking great.
Gerald.
They tried, but they forgot that I held the remote control for the steering!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 30, 2017, 12:49:39 AM
Zee, I know you are lobbying for the Stanley steam car, maybe I'll start that one while drawing up the full plans for the Marion... Or not... Send cookies, maybe we can talk about it!   

Sure. Right. I didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday.

I send cookies.
Your mouth full.
And you think you can talk?  :lolb:

Oh. Talk after the cookies?

Sure. Right.

You'll just want more cookies.

I know this game.  ;D
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 30, 2017, 01:18:16 AM
Zee, I know you are lobbying for the Stanley steam car, maybe I'll start that one while drawing up the full plans for the Marion... Or not... Send cookies, maybe we can talk about it!   

Sure. Right. I didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday.

I send cookies.
Your mouth full.
And you think you can talk?  :lolb:

Oh. Talk after the cookies?

Sure. Right.

You'll just want more cookies.

I know this game.  ;D
Elf-pucky!  He's on to me!   :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: derekwarner on August 30, 2017, 02:38:24 AM
Yes congratulations Chris on a great build.......

Have re-read from  post #1, [however may have missed]......but what is the speed reduction ratio?......either in steps from the engine crank to the first gear set....then from the second to the final chain drive reduction? etc.........

Figure 2 plan view is the first gear drive/differential simply a 9:40? reduction [Items 39:38] and the actual chain drive reduction ~~7:32? [items 30 to 59]......[Items numbers from the drawn sketch Figure 2 and 2 from post #1]

So could this reduction be somewhere in the 16:1 final ratio?

Derek
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 30, 2017, 03:16:49 AM
Yes congratulations Chris on a great build.......

Have re-read from  post #1, [however may have missed]......but what is the speed reduction ratio?......either in steps from the engine crank to the first gear set....then from the second to the final chain drive reduction? etc.........

Figure 2 plan view is the first gear drive/differential simply a 9:40? reduction [Items 39:38] and the actual chain drive reduction ~~7:32? [items 30 to 59]......[Items numbers from the drawn sketch Figure 2 and 2 from post #1]

So could this reduction be somewhere in the 16:1 final ratio?

Derek
The gears inside the large gear in the differential are just for side to side tracking, and do not matter to straight line running. In a straight line run, the bevel gears are locked in position with each other.


The crankshaft to diff ring are a ratio of 23 to 72 teeth. On the drive chains, the sprockets reduce it further, from 9 to 20 teeth. If I did the math right this late in the evening, that makes a total reduction of 6.955:1 from the engine to the tracks. This is a slightly larger reduction than the original, I wanted the engine to be able to spin a bit faster, since this small a piston doesn't give as much low speed power as the full size does. The gear teeth count in the Lombard parts manual are 23 and 56 teeth, sprockets are 9 and 22, giving a total reduction of 5.949:1, compared to the 6.955:1 on my model. Slight difference, but enough to make a difference.

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Larry on August 30, 2017, 03:21:04 AM
Absolutely Fantastic - Congratulations ! Have followed since day one.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 30, 2017, 03:51:07 AM
Absolutely Fantastic - Congratulations ! Have followed since day one.
Thanks Larry! It was wild to see it take off the first time. Still have a little way to go to call it complete, final tweaks and new burner, but it has been a really fun week!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on August 30, 2017, 05:40:19 AM
That is pretty cool, seeing your Lombard Hauler scooting around on your driveway!
Fantastic, Chris!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on August 30, 2017, 11:10:12 AM
Excellent work Chris. It is running well and looks great. Have the boys that work on the full scale ones seen it yet?

Tom
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: steam guy willy on August 30, 2017, 11:23:08 AM
looking great and the sound track is quite appropriate as well !! you could take  low action videos with the tree felling in the background,!! that would be really cool !!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 30, 2017, 12:19:37 PM
Excellent work Chris. It is running well and looks great. Have the boys that work on the full scale ones seen it yet?

Tom
Yes - I sent them the video as well. I'll be taking the model up there this fall for their Living History Days event too.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 30, 2017, 12:20:12 PM
looking great and the sound track is quite appropriate as well !! you could take  low action videos with the tree felling in the background,!! that would be really cool !!

Maybe chop down some Bonsai trees to get them in scale!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: PJPickard on August 30, 2017, 01:16:13 PM
100% behind the shovel! Like the Lombard a shovel has been on my bucket list. Hey you already know how to make the tracks!
Great work on the log hauler!!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 30, 2017, 02:15:13 PM
100% behind the shovel! Like the Lombard a shovel has been on my bucket list. Hey you already know how to make the tracks!
Great work on the log hauler!!
"Bucket" list?  :Lol:


Hmm, keep everyone happy, a Stanley steamer with a backhoe on the bumper??
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: AOG on August 30, 2017, 04:10:23 PM

Hmm, keep everyone happy, a Stanley steamer with a backhoe on the bumper??

Only if it's a dragline.

Tony  :stir:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on August 30, 2017, 07:02:33 PM
..... and radio controlled!

Tom
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 30, 2017, 08:26:41 PM
Nice that everyone is so easily satisfied!!   :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: kvom on August 30, 2017, 10:02:29 PM
I've seen a number of shovel models, but not yet one that's steam powered.  I'll be watching that one come to life.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on August 31, 2017, 09:08:01 AM
Hi Chris,
 Well done love it! Going to miss the updates!

As to the next project.......

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 31, 2017, 02:11:23 PM
Hi Chris,
 Well done love it! Going to miss the updates!

As to the next project.......

Cheers Kerrin
That looks like a Stanley engine, or one like it. Yours?
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Admiral_dk on August 31, 2017, 08:31:40 PM
Hi Kerrin - that's way to big to be a model  :o    ;)

It could easily power a small boat, workshop etc.

Still a nice project though  :)

Best wishes

Per
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 31, 2017, 08:58:26 PM
Hi Kerrin - that's way to big to be a model  :o    ;)

It could easily power a small boat, workshop etc.

Still a nice project though  :)

Best wishes

Per
Looks to be the full size Stanley or Locomobile engine, for the full size car. Those engines are not all that large, compared to a mill or ship engine, but they have a distinctive shape to the frame so they fit up inside the suspension.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on August 31, 2017, 09:05:05 PM
Oh, and no test run today, been out and about lately, looks like sometime this weekend for next test... I did pick up a couple of PMR whistle and valves, may swap mine for one of those.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on August 31, 2017, 11:55:52 PM
Hi Chris,
 Almost there, it's a White.

Per,
Yes this one 12" to the foot.

Unfortunately not mine, Dad & I (many Dad being retired) are consultants on the engine, & car it comes from, this is the original engine we think. It has been in bits for a number of years so has taken Dad awhile to put back together, luckily he had some experience with a Stanley engine in his " younger days" , he is rapidly getting towards 91, which has helped. There had to be more than a few bits made to replace parts that have seen better days, either by ware, or butchered in taking of. One of the old gland nuts has some nice cold chisel cuts in it! Still keeping the replacement parts as true as possible. Awaiting some taps & dies from the UK, 30 tpi UNS, Dad was quoted $400 for a single 3/16 x 30 die, I think Jo would have fallen over at the thought of releasing that many moths! UK price 8 pounds....far more reasonable!

I would love to post more pictures but can't ! Sorry! Maybe in the future.

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 01, 2017, 07:54:59 PM
Got in a test run today on the Lombard, and better than previous run, still needs work. I am not at all happy with the gaskets on the cylinders, think I need to redo them. They were made from the same fiber material I used before, I thought, but its not working that well, and am getting leaks up the bolt holes (hate when that happens!). Maybe try another material, or use some hi temp rtv maybe.

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 01, 2017, 10:54:29 PM
Got in a test run today on the Lombard, and better than previous run, still needs work. I am not at all happy with the gaskets on the cylinders, think I need to redo them. They were made from the same fiber material I used before, I thought, but its not working that well, and am getting leaks up the bolt holes (hate when that happens!). Maybe try another material, or use some hi temp rtv maybe.
Think I found out what happened with the gaskets, looks like I cut it from the wrong roll, found the better stuff I got for the Corliss engine. This time I am trying some thin viton sheet stock I have, got one cylinder done, the other one is pulled and ready to modify.
Those shop elves must be off at the movies or something, so I had to get in there myself. Sigh...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 02, 2017, 12:32:26 AM
Did you mean to post a picture or video?
If you did...it didn't take.
If you didn't... :ThumbsDown:

 ;D
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 02, 2017, 02:45:42 AM
Did you mean to post a picture or video?
If you did...it didn't take.
If you didn't... :ThumbsDown:

 ;D
Nope, no new video.  :shrug:

It looked the same as the last couple, and the time was better spent in the shop dismantling, regasketing, and reassembling the cylinders and linkages. That's done, need to reconnect the supply pipes and do a new leak test with compressed air, that won't be till tomorrow evening at the earliest.  Time for a cookie and bed!


Besides, aren't you supposed to be getting your new toys figured out?!   :stickpoke:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 04, 2017, 08:02:05 PM
Another test run today after redoing some of the pipe seals and testing on air. This time it ran much better, without spewing steam everywhere! The current burner still has a hard time keeping pressure up, and it heats slowly. Not surprising given that it was designed for a much smaller boiler - a new higher output burner has been designed for this boiler and is being made by the great folks over at The Train Department, should have it in a couple of weeks.
In the meantime, here is a video clip of it running today. The sound you hear part of the time is not the whistle, it is the howl of the poker burner (this particular burner is known for that noise).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVZPWKg_BNs
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: fumopuc on September 04, 2017, 08:09:40 PM
Great toy. I love it to watch the movement.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on September 04, 2017, 09:03:26 PM
This run looked really good, love to watch it.

Thomas
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 04, 2017, 09:41:34 PM
Awesome Chris.

Taking it to a show? It would certainly be an attraction.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 04, 2017, 09:48:34 PM
Awesome Chris.

Taking it to a show? It would certainly be an attraction.
Only one planned is to the fall event at the logging museum in Maine in October.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on September 04, 2017, 11:07:45 PM
Ever so cool, Chris!
I was watching the video thinking - boy, he's leaving that whistle on for a long time - then I started reading your comment about the burner making that howling noise!  :)
Kim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: steamboatmodel on September 06, 2017, 03:37:09 AM
What causes the burner to make that Howling?
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 06, 2017, 05:10:31 AM
What causes the burner to make that Howling?
Gerald.
Something about the pattern of holes in the tube, not sure what. They are known for it in the G1 locos they are made for. The larger firetube on this model makes  it resonate more, its even louder than the smaller models. I've read that people put a (titanium?) mesh screen over them which cures the noise. It will be interesting to see if the new one Jason is making me has the same thing. It will have 4 rows vs 3 rows of holes, longer, and with a larger nozzle size. Hope to get if in a couple of weeks. In the meantime I am getting work done on a friend's carousel horse that a friend of theirs started but passed away before finishing. It needs some detail work on the body and a new head and neck. I am ready to attach the legs and tail, sand and prime, then start the head.

Edit: Gerald, just noticed your signature line, love that quote!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: steamboatmodel on September 06, 2017, 02:10:50 PM
Ok Chris,
With a howl like that I think I would try making my own burner. First a copy of the original to see if it howled too, then start modifying it to see what changes does what. I had read on some of the train forum about burner howl, but didn't realize how loud it was (I could clearly hear it and I am deaf in one ear and don't hear too well out the other). I have made a few burners out of the small camping stoves and lanterns, but they have been ether under the boiler type or torch  types.
Regards,
Gerald.
PS Lazarus Long is one of my favorite characters by Robert A Heinlein
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 06, 2017, 03:01:50 PM
Ok Chris,
With a howl like that I think I would try making my own burner. First a copy of the original to see if it howled too, then start modifying it to see what changes does what. I had read on some of the train forum about burner howl, but didn't realize how loud it was (I could clearly hear it and I am deaf in one ear and don't hear too well out the other). I have made a few burners out of the small camping stoves and lanterns, but they have been ether under the boiler type or torch  types.
Regards,
Gerald.
PS Lazarus Long is one of my favorite characters by Robert A Heinlein
Its common on the factory made Gauge 1 burners, with the larger firetube its even louder. It will be interesting to see how the bigger burner sounds.
The other favorite of mine from his books is TANSTAAFL.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: ddmckee54 on September 06, 2017, 08:11:25 PM
For those of you poor deprived souls that aren't Heinlein fans.

TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.

From the sound of it we could probably get an interesting discussion going about the man's books.

Don 
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 06, 2017, 08:29:36 PM
For those of you poor deprived souls that aren't Heinlein fans.

TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.

From the sound of it we could probably get an interesting discussion going about the man's books.

Don
Don't your shop elves have a Puppeteer to help them?   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on September 07, 2017, 01:12:48 AM
Hi Chris,
 Use to consume his books as fast as I could get my hands on them, haven't read one in years!

Oh the Hauler is looking good, do you think it's freeing up a bit with the elves going for practice runs?

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 07, 2017, 01:43:17 AM
Hi Chris,
 Use to consume his books as fast as I could get my hands on them, haven't read one in years!

Oh the Hauler is looking good, do you think it's freeing up a bit with the elves going for practice runs?

Cheers Kerrin
I think it is loosening up a bit, but the elves keep leaving peanut shells and spilled beer on the cab floor!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on September 07, 2017, 02:05:04 AM
Train them to throw the shells in the boiler! , HOW DARE THEY SPILL NECTAR OF THE GODS! Threaten to with hold cookies if they don't get there act together!

Going to be interesting to see how much difference the new burner makes

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 07, 2017, 03:36:58 AM
Hi Chris,
 Use to consume his books as fast as I could get my hands on them, haven't read one in years!

Me too. Now I'm thinking it's been enough years I've forgotten the stories. Time to re-read!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 07, 2017, 04:08:14 AM
Hi Chris,
 Use to consume his books as fast as I could get my hands on them, haven't read one in years!

Me too. Now I'm thinking it's been enough years I've forgotten the stories. Time to re-read!
I had re-read several of them earlier in the year, many quite good ones.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: kvom on September 07, 2017, 01:37:05 PM
'Stranger in a Strange Land' is my favorite Heinlein.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: simplyloco on September 07, 2017, 02:27:13 PM
'Stranger in a Strange Land' is my favorite Heinlein.

Me too. I read it when just a lad, and I couldn't help thinking at the time that the main character was Jesus reincarnate!
John
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: steamboatmodel on September 09, 2017, 05:18:26 PM
'Stranger in a Strange Land' is my favorite Heinlein.
"The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" and "Starship Troopers" both for the mechanical aspects, of the later ones "Friday"
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 10, 2017, 01:24:55 AM
Not much to update on the build - the new burner is on the way, really looking forward to how that changes the behavior of the boiler.

On other projects/fun recently:
 - I connected up with the man who did a digital laser scan of the Marion steam shovel near here, and he kindly gave me a copy of the scan results. That means that I can go through and take direct measurements of the visible features to use in generating my 3D model and plans - this is going to be a huge help! Combined with the photos I took and the ones from the historical society, plus the information in the 1916 Marion catalog, I should be able to make a detailed model. Sorry Zee, the Stanley build is looking farther away...  Also found out about a dipper dredge that they used to widen the Erie Canal to the Barge Canal decades ago that is sitting in drydock in the next county - it is a Bucyrus steam shovel that is mounted on a barge, looks complete with two buckets, the state canal corporation owns it, tracking down who to contact about seeing that one too.
- The larger Grizzly mill that I picked up from a friends estate is waiting for some updates to the bench it is sitting on, needs a sturdier tabletop and having that bolted to the wall behind it to stabilize it.
- Good progress on the carousel horse that I am finishing up for a friend, neck line is repitched, legs are on, tail is made, just needs some sanding and a coat of primer to find any more spots that need filler, then can start on the head.
- Yesterday I had the opportunity to take a flight on the B-17 Aluminum Overcast that the EAA takes around the country. What an absolute blast! Started with a ground tour, talks with pilots and crew, helped turn props over to clear the oil out of the lower cylinders, then off for a flight of almost an hour. Once in the air thy let you go all around the cabin, cockpit, up in the nose section - took lots of photos and videos, will post some when I get them organized.
- Got our RC group's last outing at the pond coming up this next week, looks like we have quite a few coming in from the out of town clubs too.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on September 10, 2017, 01:35:25 AM
Sounds like a fun few day Chris. Looking forward to seeing the B-17 pics!!!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 11, 2017, 08:48:47 PM
The new burner arrived today, going to get it installed tonight and should be testing it tomorrow morning, stay tuned!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on September 11, 2017, 09:21:51 PM
Didn't somebody say something about B-17 pics :) 

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 11, 2017, 09:40:03 PM
Didn't somebody say something about B-17 pics :) 

Bill
Yup, I got the video clips assembled but need to edit it and get it uploaded, and pick out the best photos. Been over at my mother's house, getting her out for lunch, walks, and stores. Should have pics later today!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on September 11, 2017, 09:41:23 PM
No problem Chris, I was just giving you a hard time :)

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 12, 2017, 12:01:26 AM
The chief shop-elf-photographer has finally made it out of the darkroom, and gotten me the photos and video of the B-17 flight on Friday.

Here is a link to a photo gallery of some of the pics. In the group shot I am the one in the blue jacket second from the left. In the last shot we are walking the props around to clear the oil out of the cylinders before they loaded us up and started the engines.
https://postimg.cc/gallery/y8jed2s4/

And a compilation of some the video I shot along the flight, starting with the engines firing up one by one (from my vantage point in the radio room), then moving around the plane during the flight and finishing up with the landing as seen from the other side window of the radio room. After takeoff they allow you to roam around the plane, everywhere except inside the ball turret and into the tail gunners position (they have a maniken back there in full flight gear).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YYD57s-ZGk

One of my uncles was a navigator on a B-17 during the war, was shot down over the Battle of the Bulge on his 14th mission, so this was a great way to get a slightly better feel for what he went through (with MUCH less risk!). Also on this flight was a 92 year old gentleman (and his son) who flew on B-17's and also B-24's back then. It was a wonderful group!

The EAA tours with this plane (the Aluminum Overcast) as well as a couple of Ford Trimotor's and sell flights to raise money for aircraft restoration. This particular plane never saw combat, was made right at the end of the war and didn't make it over there before it all ended. They have it in wonderful condition, just about all the equipment is there - only thing missing I could tell was the remote turret innards for the upper dome turret - they probably kept that out to give more walking room in the back of the cockpit. Just a wonderful opportunity!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on September 12, 2017, 01:30:12 AM
Fantastic Chris. What a unique opportunity too. Thanks so much for posting the pics and especially the video.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Jo on September 12, 2017, 07:56:56 AM
8)

At first I thought I hope that is not live ammo they have on display there, then I realised where she is… I sure hope they have made sure that the safety cannot be disengaged if one of the passengers gets overly enthusiastic  ;).

Jo

P.S. Just been reminded why I hate image hosting sites  :ShakeHead:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 12, 2017, 02:19:36 PM
8)

At first I thought I hope that is not live ammo they have on display there, then I realised where she is… I sure hope they have made sure that the safety cannot be disengaged if one of the passengers gets overly enthusiastic  ;) .

Jo

P.S. Just been reminded why I hate image hosting sites  :ShakeHead:
Oh yes, the ammo and bombs are inert!  Wouldn't want to ruin a wonderful day by perforating anything nearby!   :o
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: tvoght on September 12, 2017, 04:26:05 PM
Thanks for the great video Chris. I need to get a ride the next time they bring her around here.

There's  nothing quite like the sound those 4 big Pratt & Whitneys make when they run them up.

Next, we need to go up to Ontario where they give Lancaster rides. See what it's like to go behind 4 Merlins!

--Tim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 12, 2017, 05:46:35 PM
Thanks for the great video Chris. I need to get a ride the next time they bring her around here.

There's  nothing quite like the sound those 4 big Pratt & Whitneys make when they run them up.

Next, we need to go up to Ontario where they give Lancaster rides. See what it's like to go behind 4 Merlins!

--Tim
I've been there to see the Lancaster, and seen them fly at air shows, would be great fun to go up in one!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Jo on September 12, 2017, 05:49:40 PM
 :thinking:

I've been told to make up a bucket list maybe Chris you are on to something  :naughty:

Jo
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 12, 2017, 05:54:07 PM
Got the new burner installed, took some fiddling to get it to run though - it was supposed to use a no 8 jet nozzle, but with that in it would not get enough air through to burn properly, so I put the no 5 one in from the old burner, and it runs but is not a lot better than the old setup. 
Have to do some research and figure out how to get more heat into the boiler...   :thinking:

One bigger problem though - the back boiler cap has developed a leak in the lower left side, where the cap is soldered to the inside end of the boiler tube. Was not there during static testing, there must have been a spot with either too little solder to take the slight flexing during heatup/cooldown cycles, or there was a spot of flux or grit in there that worked loose. Not sure what, and not sure how to fix it without stripping the whole boiler out, stripping the paint, and re-silver soldering that spot, which I would REALLY hate to have to do at this point! The leak started as just a drop of water seeping out under pressure, to now it is like a loose pipe joint, keeping the total pressure down. It is down about the height of the firetube top, so it blows out water not steam, which makes the whole thing lose pressure quicker.

Any suggestions/fixes other than a teardown?

 :Mad:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: fumopuc on September 13, 2017, 11:33:46 AM
Hi Chris, my first idea is this https://www.holtsauto.com/holts/support/will-radweld-block-channels-radiator/
But to be honest, I could imagine, there will be no other way than resolder it.
There is an industrieal process available to close microporousity http://www.maldaner.de/en/home/
But as mentioned before, I see no other real chance than a propper resoldering.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Stuart on September 13, 2017, 11:49:48 AM
Use consol it’s a very low temp soft solder , as you have tested this boiler it structure is sound so it will just plug the leak

It may seal up its self due to lime in the water , or you could ad a small amount of lime to the boiler  :)
But if you ever descaled it it would leak again

I have seen many a copper loco boiler leak with cold water but be steam tight
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 13, 2017, 12:32:38 PM
I think I'm settled on pulling the boiler and resoldering that one spot - the leak stopper type stuff might work, but I'd be worried about it gumming up other fixtures/valves/etc in the rest of the system. I'm using distilled water, so there shouldn't be much lime in the water like there would be if I was using the tap water here, which has lots of minerals in it.

Sigh. 
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on September 13, 2017, 12:40:12 PM
Hi Chris,
 Well that's a bummer! The elves have let you down in there hurry to play.
No disrespect to Stuart but I'd be very reluctant to use soft solder, as once you use it then IF you have another larger leak silver solder will never take & you will end up with a sieve or an elves toy.....
Love that you are using distilled water, there should be just about no minerals in it if its been made right.
Sure you will get that leak sorted.

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 13, 2017, 01:50:40 PM
Well, I bit the bullet (an unloaded one) and pulled the boiler. Not as bad as I thought it would be since the manifold comes off in one large assembly, just had to take off the lower part of the sight glass and disconnect the supply and output steam lines at the unions. The lines to the engine from the smokebox too.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/83glolft3/IMG_1092.jpg)
The backhead end is sitting in a bucket of pickle solution to clean up the joint, and will need to strip off some paint most likely too before soldering can begin. Hope this works!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Stuart on September 13, 2017, 02:17:35 PM
thats the trouble then the most corrosive liquid all it wants to do is regain its lost minerals ( distilled water ) thats why you must not drink it, it pulls the minerals out of your stomach , thing like to be in equilibrium

get your self some very low melt silver solder or use comsol soft solder

Stuart
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 13, 2017, 02:21:02 PM
thats the trouble then the most corrosive liquid all it wants to do is regain its lost minerals ( distilled water ) thats why you must not drink it, it pulls the minerals out of your stomach , thing like to be in equilibrium

get your self some very low melt silver solder or use comsol soft solder

Stuart
You think there might have been some flux crystals or something in that joint that re-disolved? Seems like the soaks in the pickle would have gotten it the first time, but maybe there was a bubble under a thin solder layer or something?
I have a couple grades of the silver solder on hand, will be using the lower temperature range version (of the high-temp type solder) to redo the joint.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 13, 2017, 03:11:03 PM
Let it soak in the pickle, wire brushed the area clean, including the paint  around the joint. Got out the torch and the other implements of construction, and the soldering is done, cooling off now, will pickle it over lunch and repressure test it this afternoon... Flow looked good, hope it penetrated properly. Stay tuned!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 13, 2017, 04:34:32 PM
Its been soaked and wire brushed, looks like a clean joint and don't see any of the ones around it harmed in the process. The leak was in the lower left of the picture, next to the bushing beside the fire tube. Looks okay, so I'll let it dry off more and after lunch I'll give it a pressure test and see how it really went. Here's hoping!
(https://s5.postimg.org/jtuj5z8lj/IMG_1093.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on September 13, 2017, 06:22:16 PM
I think you will be  much happier having done it the right way Chris. With the loss of pressure due to the leak fixed, the engine should run better as well and maybe even the burner issues will be minimized.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 13, 2017, 06:36:19 PM
I think you will be  much happier having done it the right way Chris. With the loss of pressure due to the leak fixed, the engine should run better as well and maybe even the burner issues will be minimized.

Bill
I'm hoping so!

The first attempt was one step forward, step and a half back though. Ran a pressure test on it, and the original leak is fixed, but now the joint at the firetube and back cap has a hairline crack. This happened during the original solder-up too, forgot that I need to heat both the outside tube and the fire tube, or they expand differently, given the tubes are a foot long each, putting too much stress on that joint. So, need to reheat again. Hope this is not a never-ending cycle!
 :paranoia:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Stuart on September 13, 2017, 06:40:44 PM
Is that a pin hole at 20 min to the hour tube to end cap

Be very careful you could be on the road to a big problem the heating cooling cycle to hard solder a leak can keep going .

That’s one reason for using comsol
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 13, 2017, 07:09:17 PM
Is that a pin hole at 20 min to the hour tube to end cap

Be very careful you could be on the road to a big problem the heating cooling cycle to hard solder a leak can keep going .

That’s one reason for using comsol
Nope, thats just a shadow from a bump.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 13, 2017, 07:56:50 PM
Hi Stuart,


I looked up the solders like Comsol, and some of the discussions about using it for this kind of leak patch. The surrounding high temp silver braze is holding the structure of the joint, but even so the general recommendations are not to use the lower temperature soft solders with it. One reason is the inability to use the hard solder in that location later if needed, I can see that reasoning. For the other direction, will the soft solder like Comsol stick to the hard solder?
The PMR boilers use rivets for structure, and the soft solder for sealing the joints, but not both together.
I am no expert on these issues, would love to have others with more experience chime in, including you Stuart. I want to get this boiler working properly, but don't want to go down a one way path if it may not do the job.
Comments everyone?

Edit: I am posting this while waiting for the boiler to col from latest attempt at resoldering. Even if it all is good this time, please chime in on these questions!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: AOG on September 13, 2017, 08:50:20 PM
I feel your pain. I'm chasing the same issues on my boiler. Fix one pin hole by reheating and you create another one somwhere else. Jo recommended using a very small pin punch and peening the pin holes closed instead of reheating. I have worked over my boiler that way but I haven't had a chance to retest it yet. You might want to give it a try.

Tony
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 13, 2017, 09:10:13 PM
I feel your pain. I'm chasing the same issues on my boiler. Fix one pin hole by reheating and you create another one somwhere else. Jo recommended using a very small pin punch and peening the pin holes closed instead of reheating. I have worked over my boiler that way but I haven't had a chance to retest it yet. You might want to give it a try.

Tony
That can work on joints around small bushings or pipes, on larger diameters like this the expansion from heating usually makes it fail again. It is a good way to close up an opening so the solder will fill it though, also is a good way to lock parts into a slot or dovetail.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on September 13, 2017, 09:15:19 PM
I still have my PMR boiler castings kit  in the box and have never built a model size boiler, however, I have been involved with the welding, inspection, and testing of several full size recovery boilers. I'll admit to using every trick in the book to get a successful hydro for the AIs( insurance company and state boiler inspectors ) I have used hot water ( if you knew the right mill person you might even get some really hot water) I have peened, I have used straight polarity on a reverse polarity electrode to "blow back " the water and seal up a pinhole, I've tried them all to make deadlines and keep a paycheck ( part of the reason I gave it up) , but, upon getting a successful hydro, we always went back and fixed it the safe and proper way. The rework after the fact was a lot cheaper than holding up a successful hydro. You did the right thing Chris. You aren't constrained by backcharges.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: Awesome project.

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 13, 2017, 09:29:05 PM
I still have my PMR boiler castings kit  in the box and have never built a model size boiler, however, I have been involved with the welding, inspection, and testing of several full size recovery boilers. I'll admit to using every trick in the book to get a successful hydro for the AIs( insurance company and state boiler inspectors ) I have used hot water ( if you knew the right mill person you might even get some really hot water) I have peened, I have used straight polarity on a reverse polarity electrode to "blow back " the water and seal up a pinhole, I've tried them all to make deadlines and keep a paycheck ( part of the reason I gave it up) , but, upon getting a successful hydro, we always went back and fixed it the safe and proper way. The rework after the fact was a lot cheaper than holding up a successful hydro. You did the right thing Chris. You aren't constrained by backcharges.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: Awesome project.

Cletus
Excellent info!

So, when are you stopping by to help with the soldering??   :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 13, 2017, 10:15:38 PM
Just got another round in, ran another pressure test - almost! But, not quite! Still one pinhole at the top of the fire tube joint to the backhead.

Enough for one day. Maybe two.

Wheres that cookie??
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on September 14, 2017, 12:34:35 AM
Boy I wish I could Chris. I have qualified on "soft soldering " up to four inch pipe, qualified on glueing up to six inch PVC , and welding with Tig and stick up to four inch wall thickness on high chrome content steel, but, I reckon I ain't never silver soldered the first thing. As Jimmy Buffet says: "ah the stories I could tell." On the other hand, there are some really good "metal composites in a stick" out there today that may just take care of the problem with lots less fuss. That was the left hand, the right one says you did the right thing by going to the root of the problem.  Carry on

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 14, 2017, 02:38:22 AM
The next time I am building a boiler I think I will send all the bits to Tennessee to be Tig'ed together!


 :cheers:


Hmmm... There's a question, can a copper boiler be Tig'ed? Tiggered? Whatever the initials are?   :facepalm2:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on September 14, 2017, 04:48:27 AM
The next time I am building a boiler I think I will send all the bits to Tennessee to be Tig'ed together!


 :cheers:


Hmmm... There's a question, can a copper boiler be Tig'ed? Tiggered? Whatever the initials are?   :facepalm2:

The only trouble Chris........... is that, nowadays, that boiler might come back held together with "Ole Tennessee's Special BBQ sauce"!  :lolb:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on September 14, 2017, 06:54:04 AM
Hi Chris,
 Keep at it, more cookies prior to starting work me thinks!

BBQ sauce ...... :P Cletus do you ship?  :lolb:

On the TIGing front, yes it's done on copper, takes a bit of setup I understand, a friend had one done years ago at the engineering company he worked at at the time. Rules down here have aligned with Australia, the AMBSC codes, which without reading them thru to confirm no longer allow TIGed boilers.

Looking forward to more running videos soon!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: fumopuc on September 14, 2017, 09:59:57 AM
Hi Chris, 30 years ago, I have done some silver soldering with the TIG welder. The task there was to fix a steel bush into the thin metal sheet of an oil pan.
The solder was delivered by Degussa now called Evonik and it works like a treat. Most of the heat was given to the bush with the TIG needle, so that the thin sheeet could not be overheated and melt. The solder was used similar like the welding process, drop by drop.
The above mentioned company does not sell the solders any more but I am sure there is similar stuff still in the market.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 14, 2017, 03:15:06 PM
The next time I am building a boiler I think I will send all the bits to Tennessee to be Tig'ed together!


 :cheers:


Hmmm... There's a question, can a copper boiler be Tig'ed? Tiggered? Whatever the initials are?   :facepalm2:

The only trouble Chris........... is that, nowadays, that boiler might come back held together with "Ole Tennessee's Special BBQ sauce"!  :lolb:

Jim
If it sticks to metal like it sticks to your ribs, should be good to go!  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: steamboatmodel on September 15, 2017, 01:54:54 AM
Hi Chris,
Looking at the photo you posted there are lumps and balls of solder showing, that is usually a sign of not enough heat and flux. I have used the 15% silver solder a couple of times to fix pinhole leaks. Usually hit it with a punch to move the metal over the hole then the solder to cover and reseal it.
Regards,
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 15, 2017, 03:04:44 AM
Hi Chris,
Looking at the photo you posted there are lumps and balls of solder showing, that is usually a sign of not enough heat and flux. I have used the 15% silver solder a couple of times to fix pinhole leaks. Usually hit it with a punch to move the metal over the hole then the solder to cover and reseal it.
Regards,
Gerald.
I'm confused on that one. The melting point of the 15% is higher than the solder I've been using, forget the exact ones but in the 50% ranges. Using the 15 would remelt everything, wouldn't it? Or are you talking about one of the soft solders? The overlapping usage of the same terms for solders is confusing.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: steamboatmodel on September 16, 2017, 12:34:51 AM
Hi Chris,
The main solder I use is 45%silve, the patching one is only 15% and barely qualifies as a hard solder. The 15% melts at a much lower temperature.
Regards,
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 16, 2017, 01:20:27 AM
Hi Chris,
The main solder I use is 45%silve, the patching one is only 15% and barely qualifies as a hard solder. The 15% melts at a much lower temperature.
Regards,
Gerald.
Gotcha. Whose 15% do you use? Which brand/variety?
Thanks!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: steamboatmodel on September 16, 2017, 02:43:25 PM
I picked the 15% silver solder at a jewelry supply. I think they had a large spool of it, which they packaged is small baggies, all it had was a notice above the bins that gave the %, weight, Temperatures and the price per gram. Unfortunately they decided to only sell to Jewelers and not sell to the public.
Regards,
Gerald.   
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: steam guy willy on September 16, 2017, 05:32:30 PM
hi. Something one should be aware of is that when you silver solder copper at a certain temperature, is ,that the solder actually mixes with the copper thereby creating an alloy that includes some of the copper !! this is why it is quite difficult to remelt the solder at the joint to "mend" any leaks. but i think we do already know this !! Keep up the good work btw and am looking forward to the next project............W......
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 16, 2017, 08:59:35 PM
hi. Something one should be aware of is that when you silver solder copper at a certain temperature, is ,that the solder actually mixes with the copper thereby creating an alloy that includes some of the copper !! this is why it is quite difficult to remelt the solder at the joint to "mend" any leaks. but i think we do already know this !! Keep up the good work btw and am looking forward to the next project............W......
I was not aware of that one! On the leaks I have had, I have been adding another bit of solder, which has worked out.


Our summer end RC submarine meet was today, great weather and turnout, hope to get back to the boiler tomorrow.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 16, 2017, 09:01:18 PM
I picked the 15% silver solder at a jewelry supply. I think they had a large spool of it, which they packaged is small baggies, all it had was a notice above the bins that gave the %, weight, Temperatures and the price per gram. Unfortunately they decided to only sell to Jewelers and not sell to the public.
Regards,
Gerald.   
What temperature did they quote? Curious how much different it is than the stuff I have been using.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 17, 2017, 11:23:34 PM
Now that the sub meet is over, I've been alternating between soldering/testing sessions and some carving work today, and think that I have gotten the leaks fixed. Finally. I hope. Please? The initial tests look good, but I need to redo the steam dome cover gasket (paper damaged during all the on/off sessions), and do a proper pressure test.

Here's hoping!  The Living History Days event up at the logging museum in Maine is coming up in a couple of weeks, really hoping to steam with the real one. Will at least display it and run it on air there, so at some point this week I need to get the boiler repainted, reassembled, and steam it up before having to pack up for the show. I'm also planning on taking the Shay along for a display. Anyone in the New England area, come on up - they are going to be running the overhead-belt shop, the sawmill, lots of other crafts. Just head for the Maine border, turn North, and drive - its up just past Bangor.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on September 17, 2017, 11:28:19 PM
Here's hoping you got the leaks fixed Chris and will be able to run it under steam at the upcoming show. In any even it will be most impressive to all that see it!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: steamboatmodel on September 18, 2017, 01:13:36 AM
Hi Chris,
I am not too sure, my soldering equipment is still packed in the garage from the move.
I have attached the Harris Guide, it may have been the Stay=Brite, which on page 18 says Stay-Brite® is a eutectic alloy with a single melting point of 430°F (221°C).
Stay-Brite® 8 has a solidus of 430°F (221°C) and a liquidus of 535°F (279°C). This melting range provides the ability to fill wider clearance parts.
Here is a link for Harman and Handy http://www.silfos.com/htmdocs/product_support/alloy_selection_guide.html
Which also lists different products.
I have used products from both of them, It is often which one I can get too.
I have also used Wolverine products from welders supplies, which is usually the easiest to find.
Regards,
Gerald.
file:///C:/Users/Owner/AppData/Local/Packages/Microsoft.MicrosoftEdge_8wekyb3d8bbwe/TempState/Downloads/GuidetoBrazingandSoldering.pdf
It is not attached in above link, tried to load with attachment and it would not post.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 18, 2017, 01:16:52 AM
Hi Chris,
I am not too sure, my soldering equipment is still packed in the garage from the move.
I have attached the Harris Guide, it may have been the Stay=Brite, which on page 18 says Stay-Brite® is a eutectic alloy with a single melting point of 430°F (221°C).
Stay-Brite® 8 has a solidus of 430°F (221°C) and a liquidus of 535°F (279°C). This melting range provides the ability to fill wider clearance parts.
Here is a link for Harman and Handy http://www.silfos.com/htmdocs/product_support/alloy_selection_guide.html (http://www.silfos.com/htmdocs/product_support/alloy_selection_guide.html)
Which also lists different products.
I have used products from both of them, It is often which one I can get too.
I have also used Wolverine products from welders supplies, which is usually the easiest to find.
Regards,
Gerald.
file:///C:/Users/Owner/AppData/Local/Packages/Microsoft.MicrosoftEdge_8wekyb3d8bbwe/TempState/Downloads/GuidetoBrazingandSoldering.pdf
It is not attached in above link, tried to load with attachment and it would not post.
Thanks Gerald! Good information!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on September 18, 2017, 01:29:01 AM
Gerald, I suspect the .pdf exceeded the new file size restriction. If you can split it into multiple parts and post each part separately it should work. Or you can send the file to the email address in my profile and I will split it for you tomorrow and upload to your original post.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 18, 2017, 01:39:28 AM
Gerald, I suspect the .pdf exceeded the new file size restriction. If you can split it into multiple parts and post each part separately it should work. Or you can send the file to the email address in my profile and I will split it for you tomorrow and upload to your original post.

Bill
I think I have found it on the Harris website, looks like a lot of great information, got my reading for tomorrow morning.
Here is the link:


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.harrisproductsgroup.com/~/media/Files/PDF/Requested%2520Resources/GuidetoBrazingandSoldering.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwi797mgv63WAhUEySYKHS7QAVkQFgglMAA&usg=AFQjCNEMHF5_9XLqrqCdjDWzKRLWk9wIzw
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: steamboatmodel on September 18, 2017, 01:44:59 AM
That is the one, don't try reading it after a full day.
Here is another link to more if you get bored,
http://www.harrisproductsgroup.com/en/Technical-Documents.aspx
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 18, 2017, 01:52:52 AM
That is the one, don't try reading it after a full day.
Here is another link to more if you get bored,
http://www.harrisproductsgroup.com/en/Technical-Documents.aspx (http://www.harrisproductsgroup.com/en/Technical-Documents.aspx)
Gerald.
Excellent, thanks!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 18, 2017, 03:26:37 PM
Well, its all good at the moment, holding pressure again. Just put on a coat of paint, when that's dry it can get reassembled and another steam trial. Really hope it holds now!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 19, 2017, 09:01:07 PM
Busy couple of days, not much shop time, but I did get the boiler back in place and the forward pipes reconnected to the engines. Hope to have the rest back together sometime tomorrow for a new steamup.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on September 19, 2017, 10:56:45 PM
Fingers crossed that all will be well Chris. You must be ready to get on with the shovel you want to do.

Tom
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on September 19, 2017, 11:35:43 PM
Hi Chris,

Found this link about the Marion Steam Shovel Co. They say there are some line drawings available and thought this might be of some interest to you.

http://www.cabincreekcds.com/marion.htm

Thomas
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 20, 2017, 12:50:21 AM
Fingers crossed that all will be well Chris. You must be ready to get on with the shovel you want to do.

Tom
Thanks To ! I've gotten in a few good runs out in the driveway, which has been great, the tracks and chains working really well. Its been the nagging little leaks that have been frustrating, and have been hoping to get it running better for the next Maine trip.
I was out most of today, did get a few more parts back in place, should be able to run it tomorrow sometime, hope its better!
I have had a little time to look through the Marion laser scan data, awesome stuff for laying out the main components accurately but still hoping to get inside the real one in person to see the smaller details of things like the clutch bands and the control linkages. Looks like that will happen in another month or so. I can start on the 3d model with what I have, pics, scans, and patent documents.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 20, 2017, 12:55:11 AM
Hi Chris,

Found this link about the Marion Steam Shovel Co. They say there are some line drawings available and thought this might be of some interest to you.

http://www.cabincreekcds.com/marion.htm (http://www.cabincreekcds.com/marion.htm)

Thomas
I have seen that site, that catalog seems to have more on the smaller units. I found a guy on ebay who sells a cd copy of the 1916 catalog, which is a larger one , 138 pages, includes a lot of details on the model 92,very similar to the one here, a 91. Also bought a print copy of the Willamette catalog from him, incredible details there too. He is at GhostTownModels.com, bunch of great stuff there!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 20, 2017, 01:08:41 AM
Oh, and just realized that I had not put up any of the pics from the submarine meet last weekend, part of my excuse for taking time off from the shop and the Lombard (needed a break!). This was our summer-end run and picnic, included the local gang plus a bunch from out of town too, Canada included.
To start, here is a picture of my Alfa submarine taken from the camera on the bow of another guys sub, when my sub was being eaten by the local SeaWeed Monster - apparently we missed one when we cleared the end of the pond last week (most died off when the nights turned cold, this one apparently was a tough old one, it wrapped a tendril around my prop and would not let go till we beat on it with a rake).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/euwwx7s5j/Alfa_Sub_In_Weeds.jpg)

And a bunch of general shots from the day:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/oo9iwa4w7/shelter.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/rq0b68i13/sub_captans.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/moxiilzyf/fun_run.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/ir5nfgnrb/greg_s_fleet.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/kqm96vi2v/packers_sub.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/mdbgs3u4n/sub.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/fj5rg5qvb/bob_s_subs.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/nndvkwdaf/bruce_and_rick_s_subs.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/4ts2nwf2f/bruce_s_gato.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/8ovgqgy87/chris_s_subs.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/rreude98n/don_o_s_hawaii.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 20, 2017, 10:28:28 PM
Alas, no run today, taking longer than I expected to reassemble the manifold and pipes, taking my time to clean the parts well, and get good coverage on the thread sealant (along with a long lunch with some past co-workers). All the backhead parts are on, going to get the insulation on tonight and let the sealant set up overnight, then  do an air test tomorrow morning and get ready for a run if all is good.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on September 20, 2017, 11:07:04 PM
Great pictures of the sub meet. Thanks for posting those Chris.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 21, 2017, 07:17:04 PM
All right! The leaks seam to be cured finally!

 :whoohoo:

It came up to pressure much faster (about 12 to 15 minutes to 60 psi from cold start), where before it would never get past about 40. Self starts and run at a lower pressure too.

The one minor nit, about 20 seconds into the run, something jammed up in the left side track's roller chain, which keeps stopping the track. Annoying, but this should be easy to find and fix, it has been running freely up till now (may just turn out to be a 1:12th scale pebble in the link!). It is back on the bench cooling off again, will track (get it, track?!) it down once it is cool and try again.

Anyway, here is a video of it it taking off, stops when the jam happened. After some fiddling, got it freed again, then it did the same thing. Can't tell till I get it up on the lift  :Lol: but something in the left side track chain is jamming up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnysT4dBlJU


EDIT: Bet I know what the jam is - one of the shop elves probably dropped some chocolate chip cookie crumbs down into the links! 
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on September 21, 2017, 08:43:24 PM
Congratulations Chris!!  Just hope the cookie crumb is easy to find and fix :)

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 21, 2017, 09:16:12 PM
Congratulations Chris!!  Just hope the cookie crumb is easy to find and fix :)

Bill

Well, not a cookie crumb, but it looks like a lazy shop elf (or lazy big furry elf anyway  :Lol: ) is to blame. With the boiler and pipes cooled off so I didn't burn my knuckles (done that enough in the past) I put the rear frame up on the lift (okay, okay, a block of wood) and turned the chains and tracks by hand. Quickly narrowed it down to the roller chain on the outside of the left side track.
The roller chains, the ones that act as linear roller bearings between the tracks and the frame, turn a fairly tight bend at either end of their travel. This means that there cannot be much length of the side links extending beyond the pivot pin hole, or the excess material will project beyond the diameter of the roller, and jam against the track as it comes around. This one chain does have some links that did not get their ends rounded off properly, so they stick out.
Not sure why it ran okay for a while and then started jamming, maybe the sprocket shifted slightly, it would not take much. It is an easy fix (for once!) to do, just needs a little time with the 1" belt sander, holding the chain around a finger and touching each end to the sander lightly to knock off the corners one by one. I had done that on the chains early on, but must have gotten tired or bored by the end of this chain and didn't do a good job on it.
Other good thing is that it is easy to remove these chains for working on them, just unscrew the guides at either end and the sprockets and chain come right off. It will have to wait for later tonight or tomorrow morning though, I have a shoot this evening that I have to get ready for.
So, should be able to try another steamup in the morning! The weather this week has been remarkably clear and warm for this time of year, sunny and in the 80's every day, going to be up to 90 by Monday. The hurricanes off the Atlantic coast have stalled a high pressure system over New England, so the weather has been more like the middle of summer than mid-fall. I like it!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on September 21, 2017, 09:44:25 PM
Boy that thing scoots on now, looking good.

Thomas
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: steamboatmodel on September 21, 2017, 11:39:12 PM
Doing the ends of the chain links would be like sharpening a saw by hand, very easy to miss one.
Looks great running.
Regards,
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 22, 2017, 12:41:59 AM
Doing the ends of the chain links would be like sharpening a saw by hand, very easy to miss one.
Looks great running.
Regards,
Gerald.
Yeah, and here there are four chains, about 36 links each, two sides per link, ...


It reminded me that I have not updated the total part count in a while, the final tally for the entire model is just over, ... drum roll... 3000!   :o
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 22, 2017, 03:10:57 PM
Ah, always good to look for the bug behind the bug, mantra for the software engineer!

This morning I got the protruding links on the sticky roller chain sanded back to proper length, which made that one run much smoother.

However, it still bothered me how the track just came to a dead stop yesterday, seemed like that was too much reaction for a bad bearing chain. So, I undid the clamp holding the track assembly onto the main axle, and slipped the assembly off to take a better look at the roller chain on the inside edge of the track. Then the cry of 'There's your problem!'!! One of the link pins on the inner chain apparently was not peened over properly, and had slid out, jamming the track sprocket like a stick in a bicycle wheel. It was out just enough to hit the sprocket, and was jamming it intermittantly, explaining how it would be able to run a short distance.
Here is the offending link:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/jhuqxsb47/IMG_1100.jpg)
After re-doing that pin, it is running smooth again, so the track was re-mounted on the axle and I'm getting ready for another steam-up after an early lunch. Assuming no new issues, should have a new video up later today...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on September 22, 2017, 03:55:17 PM
Damn Chris still looking great Dog and I am sure what ever bugs left your going to find them. Outstanding workmy friend and you do know ......I..........like.........  :Love:


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Roger B on September 22, 2017, 06:19:22 PM
Just catching up on this thread again. You move so fast even with the submarine fun. What a splendid machine  :praise2:  :praise2:  :wine1: You must be proud  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 22, 2017, 10:36:37 PM
Thanks guys!


Was planning on test running this afternoon  but too many other things got in the way. Tomorrow...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on September 23, 2017, 12:45:01 AM
Still happy you found the root cause Chris. The next steamup should be near perfect!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 23, 2017, 01:16:01 AM
Still happy you found the root cause Chris. The next steamup should be near perfect!!

Bill
Uh oh, you had to say it.   :facepalm:


Hey Murphy, HE said it, go get HIM!!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Stuart on September 23, 2017, 07:26:35 AM
Chris
Now Murphy has been alerted pacify him by giving your shop elf,s a tot of Glenfarclas 105 whisky is full cask strength 140 deg proof , that should make them happy

Great work on a fine model makes me smile when you show it running

Stuart
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 23, 2017, 09:56:31 PM
Stuart, thanks for the save, the shot of whiskey for the elves did the trick. Though, they are arguing with me on whether it is a human-sized shot or an elf-sized shot!!   :DrinkPint:


I just came in from running the Lombard, need to cool off (it is HOT out there today) and get the videos uploaded, will do that in the next hour or so. It ran very well, the leak fixes are still holding well   :cartwheel: and it is getting up to pressure in about 15 minutes from room-temperature start. One thing I did change last night was the tube that ran through the displacement lubricator - it was the smaller size that the burner uses (came that way, it was a store-bought one), and I was wondering if that was restricting the flow of steam too much. So, I made a new lubricator with the larger tube that I used on the rest of the steam lines, which also let me shorten the tube as well. Just blowing air through both showed the difference in flow, and testing on compressed air it had a marked effect.
It did run outside much better, very happy with that result - been a tough few weeks! Listening close to the sound, I think that the timing is off just a little on one side, I want to run it on low pressure air with the drive chains off to check that out. With low pressure, I can turn the crank over by hand and feel when the valves open and close. Might just need a small tweek to the position on one of the eccentrics. It is running well on level and downhill grades, still struggles to come back up my driveway, but that is a fairly steep angle.
The other thing that I want to make is a display base for it, with either some rollers or rubber-faced robot tracks (I have some of those), so that I can show it indoors on compressed air - been putting it off till the rest was done, though if I am going to show it at Cabin Fever (am hoping to finally get back there this year!) then I will need it. Thinking to make the surface of the base look like the iced roadway that it would run on, and display it with the skids in place of the front wheels.

Anyway, excellent results today, and should have the video up this evening! 

 :pinkelephant:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on September 23, 2017, 11:05:41 PM
That's all good news Chris. Looking forward to the latest videos too.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 24, 2017, 12:17:57 AM
Okay, here is some footage of the hauler tooling around the driveway today. As I mentioned in the previous post, I think that the valve timing needs a tweak, appears to have a slight stutter on one side causing the pauses now and then, may need an adjustment to the position of one of the eccentrics. However, the boiler is working quite well, and the loose pin on the one chain is solved as well. Very satisfying to see it going after all this time on it! 

Sorry for the jumpy camera work, hard to juggle the camera aim, throttle, steering all at once. This is the longest session of running so far, was out there about 1/2 hour of actual run time, still plenty of fuel and water left. Tomorrow I'll take a look at the timing using compressed air, and also get started on the display base I mentioned.

Got the popcorn ready? Here's the main feature. Hey, you, shop elves, off the chandelier and take your seats!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djh0lvjXCj8
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on September 24, 2017, 12:43:37 AM
Super job Chris really get a kick out of watching it run.

Thomas
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on September 24, 2017, 01:03:21 AM
Beautiful Chris! And nice to see that Murphy didn't show up for the big run too.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 24, 2017, 02:33:18 AM
Thanks guys!


Passing thought: this engine has little in the way of a flywheel, the two crank discs are fairly small, and thd spur gear is also. A typical mill engine would have a large flywheel to smooth out the motion  locos would have the large drive wheels to do the same thing. There is room on the crankshaft to put two small flywheels, one either side of the center spur gear, approximately 1.25" diameter by 3/4" wide. Not huge, but a decent amount of weight in brass. They could be made in halves and bolted on around the shaft without removing the eccentrics.
Question: do you guys think it would make much difference in the smoothness and slow speed running?
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on September 24, 2017, 02:34:16 AM
Hi Chris,
 Looking like you are on top of the issues..... even if the elves are still having after effects!

How about putting your camera on a selfie stick & taping it to the radio control unit?

Cheers Kerrin

PS.....now waiting for future video's of you playing in the snow!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 24, 2017, 02:56:11 AM
Hi Chris,
 Looking like you are on top of the issues..... even if the elves are still having after effects!

How about putting your camera on a selfie stick & taping it to the radio control unit?

Cheers Kerrin

PS.....now waiting for future video's of you playing in the snow!
Trying not to think about snow, we are in weather with 80 to 90 degree days for a couple of weeks!!


Might be fun to clamp the camera to the cab roof! Be a bumpy ride, but a neat vantage point.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on September 24, 2017, 03:09:36 AM
Well, that is just too cool Chris!  Loved watching you tool around your driveway with the Lombard!  That is just fun to watch!

I have no good advice for you on the flywheel.  I would think that going from almost noting, to something would make a difference in the smoothness of operation, but I have limited experience with this, so will be watching others replies.

Maybe you'll just have to try it and see!

Great work there Chris! You should feel mighty good about how it came out!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on September 24, 2017, 04:11:34 AM
Hi Chris,
 Looking like you are on top of the issues..... even if the elves are still having after effects!

How about putting your camera on a selfie stick & taping it to the radio control unit?

Cheers Kerrin

PS.....now waiting for future video's of you playing in the snow!
Trying not to think about snow, we are in weather with 80 to 90 degree days for a couple of weeks!!


Might be fun to clamp the camera to the cab roof! Be a bumpy ride, but a neat vantage point.

From inside the cab......ELVE CAM???

 :lolb: :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on September 24, 2017, 08:43:51 AM
Thanks guys!


Passing thought: this engine has little in the way of a flywheel, the two crank discs are fairly small, and thd spur gear is also. A typical mill engine would have a large flywheel to smooth out the motion  locos would have the large drive wheels to do the same thing. There is room on the crankshaft to put two small flywheels, one either side of the center spur gear, approximately 1.25" diameter by 3/4" wide. Not huge, but a decent amount of weight in brass. They could be made in halves and bolted on around the shaft without removing the eccentrics.
Question: do you guys think it would make much difference in the smoothness and slow speed running?

Hi Chris,

Any and all weight that will add to and aid in the momentum will defiantly help.

Thomas
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: MJM460 on September 24, 2017, 09:03:14 AM
Hi Chris, a few thoughts on flywheels.  A typical single cylinder mill engine requires that big flywheel as the torque fluctuates to zero from nearly twice the average twice each revolution.  With two double acting cylinders and cranks at 90 degrees, the torque fluctuates much less than for a single cylinder engine, as the peak torque from each cylinder falls between the peaks of the other, so the torque does not get to near zero and much less inertia in the way of a flywheel is required.

However, tracked vehicles tend to have a little irregularity in motion and if this coincides with the engine fluctuations the whole lot could seem worse than a smoothe load such as a ships propellor.  Moving the engine 1/8 turn relative to the tracks using the gear might make things smoother.

A flywheel contributes angular moment of inertia which involves mass, but mass distribution is even more important.  Each bit of the flywheel contributes angular moment of inertia equal to mass times radius squared.  Radius is the distance of the mass from the axis, so mass in the rim is much more effective than the same mass in the hub. 

The mass of the whole model has linear momentum when it moves along, but in a geared drive, every time this is called upon to help spin the engine through a low torque point, it reverses the gear teeth loads and will add to noise and jerkiness.  So a flywheel or two for symetry may well be worth a try, but try as far as practical for mass in the rim rather than disk or hub.  If you clamp it on as suggested, it can equally easily be removed or modified.

MJM460
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 24, 2017, 01:31:30 PM
Some good points MJM, thanks! If I get the chance, think I will try the flywheels to see what it does, will be a simple set to make and the appearance won't matter much, they will be hidden under the boiler by the eccentric followers. Given both the gear reduction and the chain drive reduction, its a complex system. I don't think changing the gear position relationship to the track will do much, that changes in every turn anyway due to the differential letting the half shafts move independently. As you mentioned, if the flywheels don't help, I'll just unbolt them.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 24, 2017, 03:08:48 PM
This morning I took the drive chains off the small sprockets (very easy to do, just lift the frame to let the track assembly rotate at least 45 degrees on the main axle, which loosens the chain) and ran it on low pressure air, with and without the con rods in place, turning it over by hand to see where the trip points on the valves are by watching when the pistons moved themselves and also when the pressure on the pistons stopped. I found that there were two issues (as usual!).

First one, causing the stuttering motion, was that the right cylinder's valve rod was one full turn too far in. This most likely happened a couple weeks ago when I pulled the cylinders to remake the cover gaskets, must have accidently let the rod rotate during handling despite trying to be careful not to. Quick fix, undo the link pin, turn it one, and put the pin back in. With that done, the engine is turning over smoothly once again, like it did when I first timed it. The timing looks to be spot on still, no need to adjust that.

Second issue is that the differential half shafts have a little too much play lengthwise now - was fine at first, but the bearing in one block slipped out on a touch on one of the bearing blocks. The bearings were not lipped (should have been) but instead just loctited in place, and one of them is loose now. Rather than depend on the loctite again, I think I will make a small bronze collar for the shaft with a set screw for adjustment, and let that keep the shaft from moving lengthwise and messing up the gear teeth mesh distance.
Quick fix there as well, fortunately. Will make that today, not sure if I will get another steam up in today since we have our first RC submarine run at the local Y pool later today and I need to get the Alfa prepped and packed up. No weed monsters in the pool, but the Y tends to use way too much chlorine without shocking it occasionally, so the salts build up and reduce the depth that the radio signal can penetrate. Always something...
If no steamup today, definitely will get one in tomorrow morning.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 24, 2017, 06:33:51 PM
The collar is made and installed on the differential half shaft, keeps things meshing nicely now. Need to update the plans for this part. I've decided not to do the flywheels for now, with the timing fix it should be fine.
With the diff and valves adjustment done, ready for a new steamup, but its too hot out on the driveway (about 90 today, black asphalt adds too much more), so will run again in the morning!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on September 24, 2017, 06:52:37 PM
I just watched the latest video Chris, outstanding!  I love this thing.  It is just too cool.

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 25, 2017, 04:11:20 PM
The adjustment to the timing on the right cylinder worked out very well, as did the addition of a collar on the left differential halfshaft to keep the gear mesh in the proper range. Got outside with it this morning before it warmed up too much (going to be another really hot one out there today) and ran it for about 40 minutes, not bad for one load of water and fuel. Below is a compilation of clips from the run. It is very humid out there, so you can see the exhaust plumes very well. The steam at the bottom is from a vent I have in the exhaust elbow below the boiler to allow draining condensation - looks just like the condensate vents in the videos I have in the real one! The only times it was stopping was when one of the front wheels dropped into a hole or depression in the driveway - those little wheels can't handle the speed bumps!
Anyway, I'm calling this a very successful run, very happy with how it went. Next stop, the event at the Maine Forest & Logging Museum at the end of next week! Hmm, better start on the display base too...
 :whoohoo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZ8mqxKmJJg
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on September 25, 2017, 05:31:23 PM
Hi Chris,
 AWSOME!! You've got her nailed!  :cartwheel: :cartwheel:

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 25, 2017, 06:08:37 PM
 :pinkelephant:


 :cartwheel:


 :whoohoo: :whoohoo:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Jo on September 25, 2017, 06:25:38 PM
 :whoohoo:

Jo

 :pinkelephant:

Surus   ::)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: elciego on September 25, 2017, 09:00:29 PM
Just beautifull

 :pinkelephant: :pinkelephant: :pinkelephant:
 :NotWorthy:
 :cheers:
Abraham
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: tvoght on September 25, 2017, 10:46:15 PM
Quite an achievement, Chris.

--Tim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on September 25, 2017, 10:46:20 PM
Chris--It's a beautiful thing. Thank you so much for such good coverage of your project. Well done!!!--Brian
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 26, 2017, 12:47:57 AM
Next stop, the event at the Maine Forest & Logging Museum at the end of next week!

 :ShakeHead:

You meant, "Next stop...Stanley Steamer".  ;D

Impressive job Chris. And I mean impressive.



Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 26, 2017, 01:01:29 AM
Thanks guys, been a great journey, and am very happy with the destination!



Next stop, the event at the Maine Forest & Logging Museum at the end of next week!

 :ShakeHead:

You meant, "Next stop...Stanley Steamer".  ;D

Impressive job Chris. And I mean impressive.


Um, yeah, that's it! Just, the Stanley car is going to be REALLY big and have a giant shovel bucket on the front!!  :hellno:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: wagnmkr on September 26, 2017, 01:35:52 AM






Quote
Um, yeah, that's it! Just, the Stanley car is going to be REALLY big and have a giant shovel bucket on the front!!  :hellno:

... and the cab will likely be quite boxy as well ... and it might be on tracks for off roading :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: steamboatmodel on September 26, 2017, 01:39:15 AM
Still happy you found the root cause Chris. The next steamup should be near perfect!!

Bill
Uh oh, you had to say it.   :facepalm:


Hey Murphy, HE said it, go get HIM!!   :Lol:
Send the Elves over tell them he promised chocolate chip cookies, then see what they do when they don't get any" Elves with attitude"
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on September 26, 2017, 01:42:44 AM
Congratulations Chris, she's a thing of beauty!  And lots of fun too :)
Kim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: MJM460 on September 26, 2017, 02:35:06 AM
More congratulations Chris.  Truly amazing in the quality of the design and  work, the efficiency and speed with which you made all the components.

And you have kept up an amazing build log all the way through, which is a real master class on every step of the way for us all to enjoy.

Well done, and many thanks.

MJM460
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: steam guy willy on September 26, 2017, 03:20:00 PM
Loverly to see it running...and if you made another one you could play  Noughts and Crosses  on the driveway !!! So What is next ??
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 26, 2017, 11:00:05 PM
Loverly to see it running...and if you made another one you could play  Noughts and Crosses  on the driveway !!! So What is next ??
Well, here goes a second attempt at adding this reply - the first time it said my photo (700x500 pixels) was too large, when hit Back my text was all gone! GRRR!

Anyway, thanks all for the comments - its been a really fun build, still need to make the display base which will have rubber faced robot treads under the hauler's tracks to allow the engine to run while running indoors on air.

Next project is a model of the Marion 91 steam shovel (sorry Zee, the Stanley Steam car project is going to be after this one) sitting outside a quarry near here that I have taken photos of the outside of, and have some photos of the inside taken when it was put up for national landmark status, plus I got a copy of the digital laser scan that was done inside/outside (from a dozen locations) that I can get measurements of parts from. In another month a team from SteamTown in Pennsylvania is coming up to do a condition report on it, looks like I will be able to tag along and get my own detail photos on the insides then. So far I've started getting measurements out and have the main frame rails done up in Fusion.
Below is a photo of what the shovel looks like. It sits on tracks rather than the original railroad wheel trucks. It was converted using a 'kit' from Marion - the front tracks power it, the rear ones steer it. There is a 4th steam engine that was added to steer the tracks.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on September 27, 2017, 12:01:46 AM
Should be another great project Chris!. Not sure why your picture exceeded the limit. Maybe the .jpg quality was set too high which increases the resulting file size.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 27, 2017, 12:53:58 AM
Should be another great project Chris!. Not sure why your picture exceeded the limit. Maybe the .jpg quality was set too high which increases the resulting file size.

Bill
Yeah, I think it was just a few bytes over, I usually set the default quality pretty high. Its really annoying that after it gives that error, hitting the back button on the page takes it back without remembering the text! Usually I copy the post first, but since the site has been running smoothly lately I got out of the habit.
I only attached it rather than putting up on the photo host site (PostImage) was that they were doing maintenance and not accepting new posts temporarily.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on September 27, 2017, 12:37:23 PM
Chris, unless it is a really short post (that I can remember) I still usually copy before hitting the send button. The site has been working smoothly lately, there can still be the random glitch at times. Also once we are all used to the new size limit its easy enough to check the file size before attaching to help avoid problems.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Don1966 on September 27, 2017, 02:51:55 PM
Chris that is one bad ass machine Dog and glad I could watch it all come together and see it completed. Awesome results man and your skills are awesome..... :praise2: :praise2:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 30, 2017, 08:23:14 PM
Chris that is one bad ass machine Dog and glad I could watch it all come together and see it completed. Awesome results man and your skills are awesome..... :praise2: :praise2:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Thank you Don, been great having you along for the ride!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 30, 2017, 08:28:27 PM
Last thing to be made is the display stand, for use in running on compressed air at shows and home for demonstrations on table-top. The base holds a pair of robot-style track assemblies with rubber treads over a hard plastic plate, with the sprockets bolted to a pair of shafts so that the tracks run together without the differential letting one or the other stop.
Here is the base so far:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4j4ixzw3r/IMG_1138.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/4hul4ku9z/IMG_1139.jpg)
The two blocks in the middle hold the front and rear axles so that it cannot take off on me (will have a safety strap around the frame too). Once the glue is set on the blocks, I am going to put a layer of Bondo putty on the top of the wood surface, with depressions for the skids and the tracks, that will get painted to look like a snow/ice surface, like the roads these ran on in the winter time.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: scc on September 30, 2017, 09:17:21 PM
Chris that is an absolutely STUNNING build .....and in such a short time too!   Loads of congrats are in order.        :praise2:       Terry
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on September 30, 2017, 10:23:48 PM
Label on the side...

"Elf driver training in progress....keep clear!"

Great idea Chris, it will be a hit at any shows you are at.

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on September 30, 2017, 10:38:16 PM
Very nice looking base Chris. That should do nicely for show demonstrations.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on September 30, 2017, 10:40:34 PM
Label on the side...

"Elf driver training in progress....keep clear!"

Great idea Chris, it will be a hit at any shows you are at.

Cheers Kerrin
It should save time wrapping the whole thing in bubble wrap for their training runs!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: steamboatmodel on October 01, 2017, 02:57:53 PM
That stand is going to be fantastic for shows. One of the Toronto Society of Model Engineers does stands for his models in which he hides a Filter Regulator Lubricator unit. He can plug the air line in at the back and control the pressure. He uses air tool lubricant in the unit and can run all day without worrying about the engine running out of lubricant.
Regards,
Gerald.
I found a photo of one on the TSME website.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 01, 2017, 03:10:20 PM
That stand is going to be fantastic for shows. One of the Toronto Society of Model Engineers does stands for his models in which he hides a Filter Regulator Lubricator unit. He can plug the air line in at the back and control the pressure. He uses air tool lubricant in the unit and can run all day without worrying about the engine running out of lubricant.
Regards,
Gerald.
Thats a great idea - maybe I'll get that kind of set up for the Cabin Fever outing. Thanks!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 01, 2017, 03:23:07 PM
Getting things packed up for the Living History Days at the museum in Maine next weekend, will be taking the Lombard and Shay models up to show there. They will be running their full-size steam Lombard both days, as well as a 1932 gas-engine Lombard belonging to the Breton family, in addition to the sawmill, shingle mill, the line-shaft workshop, and all sorts of crafts/re-enactors. If you are anywhere near Maine, it should be a great time, drive up!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 02, 2017, 06:31:53 PM
The display base is completed, got some bondo on the top surface to simulate the snow tracks, and painted it white with a topcoat of craft snow paint, which has some glitter in it. Hard to get a photo that shows both the white snow and the black engine, but here is what it looks like:
(https://s5.postimg.org/6t6vxcq4n/IMG_1146.jpg)

I ran a test with the air compressor hooked up to the steam dome - works fairly well, need to adjust the height of the rear axle support up a bit more to reduce the pressure on the base tracks to reduce the bounce as the next track plate comes up around, and also come up with an air connection that is a little more subtle. Think I'm going to stuff some insulation into the base as well, it is acting like a big sounding board, echoing all the sounds pretty loudly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1pveUIU1Us
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 07, 2017, 11:20:51 PM
Up at the logging museum in Maine this weekend, huge turnout for all the activities (1000 or so). The museum ran thier steam Lombard plus the 1932 gas engined one owned by the Bretons, great to see both running together. I ran my model around inside the visitor center (outside gravel/dirt roads are way too rough and soft for the small front wheels). Lots of interest in the models.

Other than that, I spent most of the day steering the steam Lombard around the grounds (they do laps taking visitors for rides), lost track of how many laps I did, at least 12 or 15, plus pulling it out of the barn in the morning and backing it in at the end of the day. Imagine backing a huge truck with no rear window, no mirrors, and a box wider than the cab. And no power steering and a 15:1 steering wheel gear. Fun as long as you have others directing!


Maybe tomorrow I'll spend some time seeing the rest of the events!   :Lol:


Photos and videos to follow on Tuesday or Wednesday!

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on October 07, 2017, 11:37:32 PM
Sounds like everyone is having a great time Chris. Looking forward to the pics and videos.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on October 07, 2017, 11:50:43 PM
Does sound like you're having a blast!  And I'm not surprised that there's lots of interest in the model!  Its pretty amazing!

Enjoy, and as Bill said, we'll look forward to the pics when you get home.
Kim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 08, 2017, 01:16:09 AM
Got sent this shot from my time steering today...

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on October 08, 2017, 01:30:28 AM
That's a nice shot!  Looks like you're having a lot of fun there :)  :ThumbsUp:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 08, 2017, 11:49:04 PM
More time running the Lombard model today at the museum, getting better at picking a starting water level - had not left enough steam room at the top on some of the earlier runs, I think, getting less water through the first revs now.


The official gate for yesterday was 1078 visitors, excellent for a small show out in the woods of northern Maine. Today's was less, some rainstorms moved through late morning, but not bad. Good news for the sawmill,  the creek low has been non-existent lately, very dry fall.  I didn't get in quite as many runs in the real Lombard today, but did get to drive the gas powered one out to the main loop from the barn. That was another big treat. Its a 1932 model, mostly original except for the engine, which still exists but belongs to someone else, they are trying to get it and reunite the two. Now it has a slightly smaller bus engine and transmission, actually both transmissions are in line, so the gear ratio is way low, reverse is really slow, and 2nd is about what 1st should be. Still a great thing to have two generations of the tracked vehicles going together.


Pictures and videos to follow in a couple of days!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 09, 2017, 09:44:02 PM
Back home from Maine, will be sorting and uploading photos and videos tomorrow, so in the meantime here is a video that Herb Crosby at the museum put together of the entire event, lots of fun stuff going on...

https://youtu.be/9XQqpfVhWPY (https://youtu.be/9XQqpfVhWPY)

A great video that he and Terry Harper did on how the Lombard works:
https://youtu.be/zSjLAuzoeVA (https://youtu.be/zSjLAuzoeVA)

Also a bunch of photos from him:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/8mkKPqv2XmJBDeNN2
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on October 09, 2017, 10:54:25 PM
Those are great Chris. Makes me wish I was close enough to come. Great venue and looks like nice weather for it too.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 09, 2017, 11:00:59 PM
Those are great Chris. Makes me wish I was close enough to come. Great venue and looks like nice weather for it too.

Bill
Weather Saturday was perfect, Sunday had a couple of showers but didn't stop anything.


Herb just put up another video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rey2uPtVzzY

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on October 10, 2017, 01:18:59 AM
The pictures that Terry posted are very nice!
Also over on Smokestack he posted a video.
https://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=172532&highlight=Lombard

Dave
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 10, 2017, 01:44:09 AM
The pictures that Terry posted are very nice!
Also over on Smokestack he posted a video.
https://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=172532&highlight=Lombard (https://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=172532&highlight=Lombard)

Dave
Yup, thats the same video I pointed to on YouTube in the "Back home" post. Terry's a great guy, super knowledgeable about the haulers! I've learned a lot from him.

Oh, and the photos are from Herb Crosby, I didn't make that clear in the first post, sorry.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 10, 2017, 03:49:33 PM
Okay, time for some photos from the trip up the Maine Forestry and Logging Museum this last weekend. First, a couple shots of the model with its big brother - 1:12th scale model to 1:1 scale big brother!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xnog8a13r/DSC_6035b.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/bbqnexcaf/DSC_6038b.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/a9ggwdlrb/DSC_6044b.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/nqdff88xj/DSC_6057b.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/72lxcrogn/DSC_6069b.jpg)

Paul Breton had his 1932 gas-engined Lombard Auto-style Tractor-Truck hauler there, it was running with the steam one both days. It has a slightly different track system, but based on the same ideas. Lombard produced both types at the same time for quite a few years. There were several versions, one with a dump bed. It also normally ran with the skids in front, wheels just for summer moving.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/f83zawhuf/DSC_6083b.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/ugtwomtif/DSC_6093b.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/fkvdh1xjb/DSC_6098b.jpg)
I got a chance to drive that one as well!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/n0un2snsn/DSC_6853b.jpg)
View from the drivers seat:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/utlautjhz/IMG_1327b.jpg)
Plenty of time driving the steam one, did at least a couple dozen trips around with it during the weekend. On Sunday we got some rain, so the ground softened up a bit and the steeering was much easier - they have had a very dry fall and on Saturday the ground was very hard. We took 6 or 8 people per trip around in the woodbox part of the cab, many times another passenger up front too.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/48irz8ejr/DSC_6672b.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/wy5nvv347/DSC_6811b.jpg)
View of the engineers postion inside the cab, taken from the woodbox. This is Paul Breton at the controls:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/llt2e69vr/IMG_1458b.jpg)
Here is the crew:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mo38wmkyf/DSC_6667b.jpg)
They were also running the line-shaft machine shop, full of great old machines.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/k6rhpdvx3/DSC_6148b.jpg)
Brian Barker and his son were running the machines. Ron Ginger was there on Saturday as well - thought sure I had a photo of him but now I can't find it. Rats!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/u42iihljb/IMG_1321b.jpg)
Great details in the machines:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/p5f03zs13/IMG_1414b.jpg)
And I think this is where Zee was staying, but I didn't see him around. Looks like a hat he would wear....
(https://s5.postimg.cc/nqdff817r/IMG_1398b.jpg)

Full set of photos up on this album:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/gXXuXEifSHKvS3ev1

Videos are still in the works, will upload them in a little while...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on October 10, 2017, 04:39:06 PM
More great pictures Chris. Going back to the first video link you posted, I had no idea pickled eggs were big in Maine.  :noidea:

Bill
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 10, 2017, 04:40:56 PM
More great pictures Chris. Going back to the first video link you posted, I had no idea pickled eggs were big in Maine.  :noidea:

Bill
At least with that group! I prefer the seafood down on the coast myself. At least they also brought donuts for the volunteers every morning!

Videos are editted and are uploading now...
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 10, 2017, 06:00:53 PM
Some videos from the weekend show...

Steam lombard:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsapkG91sVA

Gas powered Lombard and a smaller Cletrac tractor:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLxfuAWVgBo

Water powered sawmill:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eix-6SaT45w

Shingle mill - powered by part of an old Toyota truck!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rs5vG43OIB4

Line shaft shop:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWPgTH_SdNg

A log splitter - powered at front by a small hit/miss engine, looks like the splitter portion was built from the frame and crankshaft of a larger hit/miss engine, clever:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TebQ-U4sMJo


The model ran well at the museum - one thing I think that I am going to try out is deepening the grooves that hold the o-rings in the pistons, bit too much friction there. Once that is done, I think I am going to call this one complete! I demo'd it both days on the concrete floor of the visitor center at the museum, the soft gravel and stone dust area in the barn and the gravel/dirt roads were too much for the small wheels on the front axle. Ran well there, but I've been noticing that turning the crank over by hand takes a lot more force than my other engines, think I made the o-ring fit just a little too tight. Nothing a minute on the lathe won't fix!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: zeeprogrammer on October 11, 2017, 12:06:33 AM
re: photos in post 2180...Fantastic!  :ThumbsUp:

P.S. I used to have a beard like that. We could have been twins. But daughter convinced me to go goatee.
Even so...I'm down to shaving once a week. I don't care how I look at work at the end of the week.  ;D
Actually...I don't really care how I look...anymore.

I still care how I smell though.  ::)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 11, 2017, 12:49:09 AM
re: photos in post 2180...Fantastic!  :ThumbsUp:

P.S. I used to have a beard like that. We could have been twins. But daughter convinced me to go goatee.
Even so...I'm down to shaving once a week. I don't care how I look at work at the end of the week.  ;D
Actually...I don't really care how I look...anymore.

I still care how I smell though.  ::)


 :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: 10KPete on October 11, 2017, 02:40:29 AM
re: photos in post 2180...Fantastic!  :ThumbsUp:

I still care how I smell though.  ::)

Then you're not far enough!! 

Pete   :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Flyboy Jim on October 11, 2017, 03:03:53 AM
What a great trip Chris. Thanks for the videos and update.  :ThumbsUp:

I'm looking forward to your next project............looks like a good one!

Jim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: steamboatmodel on October 11, 2017, 03:16:29 AM
Got sent this shot from my time steering today...
You need to do a model of that driver for your model.
With the gas one was the clutch on the left, brake on right and hand throttle?
Watched them all on U Tube, like the sound of the shaper.
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 11, 2017, 03:34:46 AM
Got sent this shot from my time steering today...
You need to do a model of that driver for your model.
Gerald.
Its on my woodcarving todo list - needs to be wearing coveralls and field boots rather than t shirt and sneakers though!! You're right, would be a good spot to sneak in a cameo, not as sneaky as Hitchcock used to do but fun.


There was a family there that brought along thier elderly father, we took him for a ride on the seat next to the steersman, his grin was huge!


There's a quick design project for this week, the linkages at the sawmill there that advance the log trolley into the blade on each stroke needs to move half as far as it does now without changing all the gears and such, I came up with a plan to add another set of pawls to do the job with just a couple of simple parts and moving a link pin on a wooden lever. Should be fun to see that in action, will post details as that unfolds. I'm drawing it up for their blacksmith to whip up. They had been thinking about changing gears and or ratchet wheel, much more involved.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: fidlstyks on October 12, 2017, 01:48:27 AM
You have to like the duo of big and small. Would love to see them. Maybe some day I can go to the show .
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: steamboatmodel on October 12, 2017, 02:13:52 AM

[/quote]
Its on my woodcarving todo list - needs to be wearing coveralls and field boots rather than t shirt and sneakers though!! You're right, would be a good spot to sneak in a cameo, not as sneaky as Hitchcock used to do but fun.
[/quote]
I would offer to do one for you, but with my woodcarving skills you would end up looking like Poppa Smerf.
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 12, 2017, 02:29:57 AM

Quote
Its on my woodcarving todo list - needs to be wearing coveralls and field boots rather than t shirt and sneakers though!! You're right, would be a good spot to sneak in a cameo, not as sneaky as Hitchcock used to do but fun.
I would offer to do one for you, but with my woodcarving skills you would end up looking like Poppa Smerf.
Gerald.


 :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Roger B on October 13, 2017, 01:07:52 PM
Looks like you had fun trying the real thing at the show  :)  :)  :)  :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: rspringer on May 31, 2018, 03:42:52 AM
Is anyone interested in following a 2 inch scale Lombard.  I need encouragement.  I would start a new thread.  In the mean time can someone point me in the direction of how to make spokes for a sprocket.  Oh all of my elves got a suntan and turned into gremlins.
Thanks
Rod
 
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 31, 2018, 05:32:38 AM
Is anyone interested in following a 2 inch scale Lombard.  I need encouragement.  I would start a new thread.  In the mean time can someone point me in the direction of how to make spokes for a sprocket.  Oh all of my elves got a suntan and turned into gremlins.
Thanks
Rod
Hi Rod!
As you know from our talks, I would definitely be interested in seeing the larger scale version of the Lombard model!!

For the sprocket spokes, the way I did it should be the subject of the next installment my article series in the next (July) issue of Live Steam magazine, taking the sprockets from single piece of plate stock to finished, using a rotary table on the mill. In 2" scale, that will be a large piece of metal. Another way to go could be to make up the individual pieces and weld or silver solder them together, though I would imagine the teeth would still need to be milled with a rotab or a dividing head. In the article it will give full details of the offsets and angles used, you would just need to multiply up the distances for the larger scale.


Another note - anyone reading this thread recently will know that the pictures all vanished when the photo host site (PostImage) suddenly changed their pathname due to a fight with the domain name gods. I was in contact with Ade (our wonderful forum host) about doing a global search/replace on the wording to get those paths changed in mine and others threads who use them (LOTS of posts). He is quite buried in his real job, and has not had a chance to get to it yet. I was just doing some experimenting, and found a Firefox plugin that helps do the search/replace - I still need to go through post by post with photos and fix them, but it gets it down to a few clicks each. I have done the last couple of pages on this thread tonight to test it out, so far so good. I am going to continue doing more posts in this thread plus my others (Marion 91, Shay builds), but it will take some time - can only do so much computer work at a time right now till my thumb tendonitis heals up the rest of the way (De Quervain's Tendonitis for the medically knowledgable). I'll be doing it in small batches, though if Ade gets the time he hopefully can finish the job at a global level, and earn himself a whellbarrow of cookies!   :atcomputer:


Anyway, Rod, hope you can start on your project, I'd sure like to see it!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: sco on May 31, 2018, 10:51:01 AM
Chris,

I used to suffer with a lot of thumb pain - I push a mouse around all day for work and what fixed it for me was swapping to a Evoluent Vertical Mouse: https://evoluent.com/products/vm4r/ (https://evoluent.com/products/vm4r/)  Looks mad but it definitely works - something about the shape means it relieves the thumb of the job of gripping the mouse.

Simon.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: PJPickard on May 31, 2018, 11:12:56 AM
I'd love to see a 2" Lombard build. As I mentioned way back at the start of this I always wanted to build one and years ago I decided on 2" scale. Hope to see a new thread on it!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 31, 2018, 12:46:31 PM
Chris,

I used to suffer with a lot of thumb pain - I push a mouse around all day for work and what fixed it for me was swapping to a Evoluent Vertical Mouse: https://evoluent.com/products/vm4r/ (https://evoluent.com/products/vm4r/)  Looks mad but it definitely works - something about the shape means it relieves the thumb of the job of gripping the mouse.

Simon.
Thanks Simon, that looks very promising. I think a friend of mine has that or one like it, will stop over and give his a try and see how it works. That hand position should help a lot.   :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Kim on May 31, 2018, 02:53:38 PM
I'd definitely follow a 2" Lombard build if you do it!
Go for it!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on May 31, 2018, 09:20:14 PM
Chris,

I used to suffer with a lot of thumb pain - I push a mouse around all day for work and what fixed it for me was swapping to a Evoluent Vertical Mouse: https://evoluent.com/products/vm4r/ (https://evoluent.com/products/vm4r/)  Looks mad but it definitely works - something about the shape means it relieves the thumb of the job of gripping the mouse.

Simon.
Thanks Simon, that looks very promising. I think a friend of mine has that or one like it, will stop over and give his a try and see how it works. That hand position should help a lot.   :ThumbsUp:
Did some looking around, wound up ordering one of those. In the meantime, did an experiment with putting the mouse pad on an slanted board, even that helped a lot!
Got a start on fixing the picture paths on this thread, have about a quarter of them done, starting from the earliest posts and working forward. Rod - the ones showing the sprocket spokes are in there now, though the next issue of the magazine will have better details and measurements.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: rspringer on June 01, 2018, 01:59:12 AM
Thanks for the pictures.  I was manually opening them.  A slow process. :pinkelephant:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 01, 2018, 02:13:06 AM
Thanks for the pictures.  I was manually opening them.  A slow process. :pinkelephant:
No problem - hope to have the rest of them back online over the next week or so. Looking forward to seeing your build thread progress, and someday have your Lombard take mine for a ride!   :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 05, 2018, 07:07:15 PM
All right - I think I have all the photos on this thread back in place, fixed all the links to the new path that Postimage is using. If anyone spots any missing ones still, please let me know which post they are in!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: rspringer on February 03, 2019, 03:26:30 AM
Sorry to say but one of the most informative websites for the Lombard and other steam interest has been shut down.  http://www.depuffendeschoorsteen.com/
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: PJPickard on February 03, 2019, 01:38:03 PM
Thats too bad, looks like I will have to do some downloading!
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 03, 2019, 01:49:03 PM
Rod, that sucks, he had a lot of great pics collected on his site. For those who had not seen it, he had built a very nice Lombard model a couple years before I did mine, and had collected a lot of vintage photos and videos off the net. Hope he can get it back up someday.
Chris
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on February 03, 2019, 01:51:32 PM
Rod, BTW, how is your model of the Lombard coming along, have not seen any pics in a while?
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 06, 2019, 07:39:55 PM
Hi all, have not posted anything on this thread in a while, since starting on the Marion build, but do have one update to make. I had been helping one of the guys up at the museum with a copy of my 3D model in Fusion for a video he was putting together with proposed changes at the museum for parking and such, when I saw that he had included a Lombard-shaped weathervane on the roof of the barn they store it in. As soon as I saw that, I knew that we needed a weathervane like that for real! So, did some experimenting with how to make it, copper sheet, that sort of thing, and finally settled on having the outline water-jet cut in some stainless steel plate. Had that done from a place I found online, then made the pivot tube and brackets to hold it to the post, and bought some off-the-shelf weathervane parts for the post, letters, balls, etc.

Here is what it looked like before packing it up to send it up to the museum (they got it today, so not spoiling the surprise)
(https://i.postimg.cc/4xTCj5fM/IMG-5123-Weathervane.jpg)
As soon as they get it installed I'll post a picture of how it looks on top of the barn. I'll be up there again this fall at the Living History Days event and get more pics.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on June 06, 2019, 08:34:50 PM
Hello Chris,

That is a really nice looking Vane, they should be most pleased.

Is that a Main Lobster Boat in the background?

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 06, 2019, 08:39:04 PM
Hello Chris,

That is a really nice looking Vane, they should be most pleased.

Is that a Main Lobster Boat in the background?

Have a great day,
Thomas
Yup, one of my RC fleet.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: cnr6400 on June 06, 2019, 08:49:58 PM
Hi Chris, the weathervane looks great!

This is one instance where it's a good thing when your work is "in vane".....

(sorry for the bad pun, again!     :facepalm:)
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 06, 2019, 09:32:36 PM
Hi Chris, the weathervane looks great!

This is one instance where it's a good thing when your work is "in vane".....

(sorry for the bad pun, again!     :facepalm: )
The shop elves are releasing their bad pun enforcer at you...
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZRm1NJRV/DSC-6449-Eagle-Heada.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: RonGinger on June 06, 2019, 10:27:18 PM
Quote
Is that a Main Lobster Boat in the background?

Have a great day,
Thomas

Hey, that is MAINE, the state. We call this "The way life should be", lets not deride our boat name to something like a street name.  ;D
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 07, 2019, 03:13:12 AM
Quote
Is that a Main Lobster Boat in the background?

Have a great day,
Thomas

Hey, that is MAINE, the state. We call this "The way life should be", lets not deride our boat name to something like a street name.  ;D
Ayuh.

 :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Art K on June 07, 2019, 03:33:35 AM
Unless of course someone named their lobster boat "State Street or Water Street" :facepalm:
Art
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 07, 2019, 04:25:58 AM
Ah, Zee has ruined us all...!   :Jester:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 16, 2019, 03:49:38 AM
A couple of weeks ago one of the guys at the museum up in Maine with the real Lombard hauler that I based my model on sent me a animated video that had a lot of the proposed changes they have to the grounds at the logging museum. At the very end, he finished the animation up with a flyby of the big barn that they store the Lombards in, and he had added a Lombard-shaped weathervane to it. As soon as I saw that, I knew that I had to make that a reality. After some experimenting, settled on getting the outline waterjet cut at a place I found online where you can upload the design, they cut it for me in .100" thick stainless steel, at about 30" long. Added some braces to hold a stainless tube with bronze bearings for the post assembly, which is off the shelf items from one of the weathervane shops. Mailed it up to them, and today they got it installed on top of the Machinery Hall building that the Lombards are parked in. Here is how it looks:
(https://i.postimg.cc/yNc98Wgn/Weathervane-Installed.jpg)


Couple of video links that Herb Crosby at the museum sent me of the install and the event they held today, the spring Alewive Run where they had running races, the Lombards running, as well as the sawmills:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCdzijSzMyA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqLDfGGAcf0

And a link to a photo collection Herb took:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/w52TDw1PowqgLqQo7 (https://photos.app.goo.gl/w52TDw1PowqgLqQo7)
Wish I could have made it up there today, but I will be there in the fall for the Living History Days weekend that they hold.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Larry on June 16, 2019, 04:39:52 AM
First class installation with bucket truck and all. Great job. Weather vanes have always fascinated me. I wish someone would design a scale model shingle mill as shown in the 2nd video.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on June 16, 2019, 11:58:18 AM
Hello Chris,

You are so fortunate to be associated with that group of folks and have access to all that great equipment.

Your vane looks really good on their barn and it shows how much they appreciate your work.

Man that big disc saw is awesome and a bit scary.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on June 16, 2019, 12:25:08 PM
First class installation with bucket truck and all. Great job. Weather vanes have always fascinated me. I wish someone would design a scale model shingle mill as shown in the 2nd video.
That would be a great model, though it would need a different power source. Around the back of the shingle mill is the front end of an old Toyota with a takeoff shaft running back to the mill!!


So glad they had access to the bucket truck, that roof is a long way up in the air. Got lucky with the placement of the wood beams inside the roof.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on July 18, 2019, 09:12:26 PM
For any who are near Maine this summer/fall, and want to see real Lombard log haulers in action, the Maine Forest And Logging Museum is having an event on July 27th (2019) where they will be running the steam Lombard, should also be running the two gas powered ones that they have on loan. Great chance to see and ride on a vintage machine. They have sawmills, other stuff running too.

http://www.maineforestandloggingmuseum.org/programs-2/summeratleonardsmills2019
This fall is their big event, a two day fest with everything running, re-enactors, lots of fun! October 5-6th.
http://www.maineforestandloggingmuseum.org/programs-2


Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 08, 2019, 11:09:35 PM
I made it back up the the museum in Maine for the 2019 Living History Days event - this year there were four Lombard vehicles present: two steamers and two gas powered trucks. New this year was a 1928 Lombard dump-bed truck, that was owned for years by one of the towns in Maine and used for plowing and construction projects. Quite a bit smaller that then others, but using very similar designs to the others with tracks on the back and wheels up front. With that one there, now I've had the opportunity to drive three different Lombards - quite a lot of fun!


Here is a link to a Google Photos album with a bunch of my pictures:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/U7o2WVWybweyftKq5

And a video compilation of clips I took over the weekend:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrALArX1nZ0


Also, here are some more albums and videos that Herb Crosby took:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGiWdVnt53Y

https://photos.app.goo.gl/HnW9vCyKgQeg9ci1A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIsv80RS9so

https://photos.app.goo.gl/QTM19r3xjzicegfL6


Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 08, 2019, 11:38:27 PM
Chris--I loved the videos. Wish I'd been there.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on October 09, 2019, 12:18:06 AM
Hello Chris,

It is a shame that everyone in America doesn't have the opportunity to visit, enjoy and learn. Thanks for sharing the videos and photos.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 10, 2019, 12:29:13 AM
Thanks guys. I may Have to go again next year  O:-) , talking with Terry sounds like they get another gas Lombard going, this one with a Sterling brand engine, that would make four that I have driven if so! Getting three different models out on the road together probably hasn't happened in a long time.
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: Steamer5 on October 10, 2019, 04:50:53 AM
Hay Chris,
 What a bxxxxxr of a way to spend the weekend!
Looks like a great place, the team there have done a terrific job.
Looks like the Armstrong power steering got a bit of a workout on the steamer!

Oh did the elves give you a hard time on the finger damage? I know you pain on that one!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
Post by: crueby on October 10, 2019, 03:29:25 PM
Hay Chris,
 What a bxxxxxr of a way to spend the weekend!
Looks like a great place, the team there have done a terrific job.
Looks like the Armstrong power steering got a bit of a workout on the steamer!

Oh did the elves give you a hard time on the finger damage? I know you pain on that one!

Cheers Kerrin
Its a great little museum, that event could not happen without a well organized army if volunteers. A really fun weekend! And the elves were too hung over to notice much when I got home.
SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal