Model Engine Maker
Engines => Your Own Design => Topic started by: Ramon Wilson on February 21, 2014, 10:58:19 PM
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'Guys'
This project has been waiting in the wings for some time now. With the intermittent way that the boiler build is going I found myself thinking about another engine build to run alongside - both projects being done on an 'as and when basis'
When that first 'vintage' diesel was made about five years ago it did not take long at that time to become aware of that treasure trove of all matters I/C - the 'Model Engine News' (MEN) web site. Set up and run by Australian Ron Chernich this labour of love of his provided so many hours of entertaining information on all sorts of interesting I/C subjects on a monthly basis right up until Ron's illness got the better of him in December. If you are reading this Ron I'd like to pay tribute to the countless selfless hours you must have spent on 'our' behalf to give 'us' so much pleasure. Thanks indeed :ThumbsUp:
Now I've always had a passion for diesel engines having owned many, mostly basic, versions over the years so when I saw this I was totally spellbound......
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-dToKE3GOVmI/UwO4pTmCJ8I/AAAAAAAAIp0/gyJ4-dGqshs/s800/auto1.jpg)
The description showed it to be an 'Atomatic 4' an Italian design and built by one of the 'Engine Boys' Les Stone. The engine features on one of MEN's 'tribute pages' and as you can see Les is a prolific builder of some truly superb engines. http://modelenginenews.org/ (http://modelenginenews.org/)
Via Ron I contacted Les to see if any drawings were available. Unfortunately Les had been requested by his source not to divulge the details and could not help in that direction. He confirmed however that his engine had been made from solid so that for me was a tempting start.
Though disappointed I set to searching the web and contacting old aeromodelling friends and it would be Eric Offen, our now self styled 'Muddled Engineer' (but not in my book!) that would open the way to producing one of these engines.
Eric actually had a version of the original engine and after asking if he would mind taking a couple of pics and some measurements I received several like these...
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-fm1y2qFKEPs/UwOuoJepaXI/AAAAAAAAIno/UD4O9nCiQ8w/s912/Atomatic%25205%2520002.jpg)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-rJKbT-qib3A/UwOuoLsnIfI/AAAAAAAAIng/XOpS-FlE0AA/s912/Atomatic%25205%2520004.jpg)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Z4Wo2uF5334/UwOupYbyH2I/AAAAAAAAIn8/2LvvjHMJsJA/s912/Atomatic%25205%2520005.jpg)
To take a few pics of an engine is one thing but to strip it down is another. I'm not going to embarrass him but lets just say you couldn't wish for anything more - but there was :o
Following behind a few days later was not only the real 'icing on the cake' but the bloody cherries too :D ...
First up was an advert showing the engine, this version a '5', in cutaway format and importantly it's design specs of stroke and bore
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-ZlNBsP6wYOE/UwPGNVL9LEI/AAAAAAAAIqc/WIGeK-xwy4A/s800/P5070004.JPG)
and secondly a pic of a display board showing the make up of parts....
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-2tLKUd1QW48/UwPGNS16f9I/AAAAAAAAIqY/NpQsNXpumvU/s640/P5070003.JPG)
The cutaway answered questions on the intake and delivery system - note there's no needle valve - and the front mounted crank driven rotor disc was a complete surprise. The fuel tank sits over the crankshaft which although unusual in UK engines was frequent in Italian designs. It kept the engine short from an installation point of view and gave it a more streamlined look which was no doubt a selling point. One thing that threw me though was the internal backplate cast in situ albeit with a hole in it and a separate mounting plate. I could not understand the reason for the knurled screw set in the middle of this either but this would be revealed at a later date.
These two images were printed off along with images of Les's version and various parts carefully measured.
With the bore and stroke known it was possible to approximate other dimensions and from these create a reasonable set of working drawings for a 5cc capacity engine.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Cs9UtPZf3Cc/UwPISri88KI/AAAAAAAAIrQ/21Wpbwj8m98/s912/DSCN2565.JPG)
The drawings were done pre AutoCad which dates them to just before the first Etas. The engine should make a very interesting machining project though hand fettling around those exhausts will have to play a big part. The case is assembled by screw thread so some screwcutting is involved which will also be a change from those done so far.
The material is cut off - now all that remains is to make a start - but that won't be tomorrow - that's a sailing day ;)
I hope this preamble is of interest but the help of others should always deserve a place.
I have no idea if it will be successful - that case is far more complicated than anything tackled so far but nothing ventured nothing gained - besides Les has already shown the way. Thanks Les for that initial inspiration
Back soon - Ramon
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I'm interested Ramon.
Please carry on; I'm sure this beauty will be as interesting and successful as your other wonderful engine projects.
Dave
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Looking forward to seeing this one evolve Ramon, at least you don't have to worry about scaling this one upto your usual 5cc as its already there :)
J
PS Given you current other interests how long until we see a marine engine rather than all aero engines?
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Now that's a preamble!.....getting the popcorn!
Dave
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I don't drool...but I might.
Hugh.
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Wow - Ramon doing another "diesel" CI engine and yet again it's an Italian job and a long legged one too ;D
I'll certainly be looking for all the instalments and I'll hope that Eric (muddle engineer) will point Ron this way (he's aware of HMEM, but I don't think anybody pointed him in our (MEM) direction) as I'm sure he'll get a kick out of this :whoohoo:
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That's an incredibly artistic engine. Very Italian :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
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Ok Tug, I have looked through this book :naughty: a few times and I cannot find your engine :headscratch:. Do I get the idea that this design is not out of this highly desirable book?
The 4cc 1944 Super Antares looks similar and claims to be "the first study for the Atomatic 4". The Italian description goes into much more detail (and passion) about the engine than the English translation ;)
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Ron knows about MEM and he promised me a write up about us for the last edition of MEN but sadly his health failed before he completed that edition :'(
Jo
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Hi Guys - looks like one or two of you feel much the same as I do about this lovely little engine however I realised after shutting this down last night that I had omitted something rather important. :-[
Eric - my thanks indeed for all the help you have given to enable me to begin this project. Without that help I fear it would not have progressed much beyond that initial desire to have an attempt at making one - 'I owe you one' (or three!)
Jason - there are no plans for any marine engines as yet. Besides, there are 'one or two' sitting here waiting for new homes as it is ::)
'Daves', Hugh and 'Admiral' I hope this meets your expectations - there's a long way to go from these two blocks of HE30....
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Gyu43p-ppO0/UwkLNkzrJQI/AAAAAAAAIsw/Bdj7ZXIaOgg/s912/DSCF4074.JPG)
... but hopefully there's at least one crankcase lurking within them.
Jo - From the outset I had no idea that this engine was featured in the book you have. It's very much a product of the info supplied by Eric. I think I'm right in saying that the original info passed to Les Stone came from the same source (the author) and, having only recently been made aware of said book had surmised that back then, it's imminent publication may have been the reason behind the request to Les not to disclose the info. The fact that its not in there now knocks that theory into touch though.
I'm not certain of it's historical positioning either I took a look on the site I recommended to you and the name Antares is listed under two different designers albeit one is prefixed 'Super'. This is by the same designer as the Atomatic series but no date is given though it features at the end of the list possibly inferring that it came after the Atomatic. :-\
All being well - best laid plans etc - swarf production begins tomorrow ;)
Regards - Ramon
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I'm pulling up a chair for this one, Ramon!
I had to look up HE30: seems to be 6082 on this side of the pond.
Simon
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Hi Ramon, I will be following you on this venture as well. Looking forward to learning more.
Don
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G'day Ramon.
An interesting project. When looking at the photo of the display board, the prop appears to be set-up for clockwise rotation.
I have heard of a few early engines set up this way, mainly C/L speed engines, supposedly for the torque to roll them away from the operator. Is this the case or is it just an optical illusion?
Regards *Danny M *
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I have my chair drawn up, nibbles and refreshment on hand.
Jim
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Ramon. That is a beautiful piece of engineering! (http://serve.mysmiley.net/love/love0001.gif) (http://www.blueislandsdiving.com)
Will be sitting here. Watching, quietly....... ;)
David D
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It is an elegant little engine Ramon. Not being that familiar with diesel model aero engines though, are the smaller displacement ones more difficult to get to run than larger displacement versions? I will be looking in and following along as well.
Bill
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Ramon:
I agree with Roger B, very sleek and somehow Italian looking. Will be fun to watch it come together.
Hugh
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Hi Guys - I'm somewhat taken aback and very pleasantly surprised at the depth of interest - I hope it will live up to your expectation. I can see you agree that it has a certain character and Les's version definitely oozes that Italian 'style'.
To respond to the points raised...
Simon - Yes it's 6082 over here too but I still think of it as the old HE30. I usually put the 6082 in brackets ::) Lovely stuff to machine particularly as, apart from the odd squirt of cutting fluid, I have to do most machining dry.
Danny M - No, it's a conventional set up - anti-clockwise. I think the image is misleading. I have several pics of original engines now all showing conventional props fitted. Incidentally while you are here - what is that lovely looking side port in your avatar?
Bill - I've not made anything from scratch smaller than 5cc however I have rebuilt and refurbished commercial engines down to 0.5cc. Given a good piston and crankcase seal there's not really that much difference though the smaller engines appear to like to be quite 'wet'. They need a faster rather than harder 'flick' to get the piston moving but apart from that not much else. Individual engines do have their own characteristics however and some can be real finger 'depleters' ;) The main thing I like about 5cc size is that the parts are not so small and fiddly as to make work holding awkward and not so big as to make material costs unreasonable.
Jo - further checking reveals that Travagli's Super Antares is dated 1944 same date as the Atomatic 4 and Vantini's Antares engines 42 onward. The 'Ato' 5 is dated 1947.
As hoped, swarf production got underway today but there's little to show save for two milled blocks and two bored holes. Here's a closer pic of the GA which may explain the build a bit better.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-as4uP4-ponQ/UwplGx-laPI/AAAAAAAAItY/bHNBPuP7fJI/s912/DSCF4080.JPG)
The blocks once milled weighed 368 gms - I wonder how much of that will disappear in the bin.
When I first drew this out I could not fathom why the case was cast with an integral back-plate which then had a hole in it. I decided to leave the plate out and make it a straight through bore. Something obviously fitted into the hole but it would be a while before I could make a guess based on a image on the net and one which, I'm certain, was confirmed recently on some drawings. I'm now convinced it is a crankcase pressure relief valve - no doubt intended to be used in conjunction with a timer to cut the engine on free flight models.
Bearing in mind the two blocks are primarily in case a boo boo occurs I have decided to do one as first drawn - without the integral plate - and the other as per the prototype. At this stage though major thoughts are with getting the areas around the exhaust stubs to look convincing - the rest will only follow once that has been achieved (says he hopefully).
I had an email from Sandy regarding the boiler burner and in which he comments on this engine. He wonders how the rotor disc will be kept in contact with the port face. This raises a good question and one which could be answered here.
Rear rotor discs are usually set with a small gap, usually 3-5 thou sometimes more, to prevent surface drag, the disc floating within this allowance and not being directly influenced back and forwards. Here though, even with a degree of end float on the shaft the prop thrust will always pull the rotor onto the port face unless the crankshaft forward movement is is restricted. I have set the rotor running on the crankshaft bearing sleeve which will protrude sufficient to give the required gap - the c'shaft web bearing directly on the end face. Not exactly a large surface, and one which may wear eventually but given that this will only be run - if indeed it does - on odd occasions it will hopefully be sufficient enough.
Well, that's it for tonight guys - a good book beckons ;)
Ramon
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Looking forward to seeing more Ramon...the precision required must be incredible!
Bill
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Hi Bill, I wouldn't go so far as to say incredible but this one is going to be 'testing' that's for sure ;)
Well Guys
All the preparatory internal machining is complete and work on the outside surfaces began this morning. Here are a few pics to cover up until then .....
First off was to bore out the case. I found this difficult to hold in the four jaw so resorted to the face plate putting some 2.5mm MDF board behind for the tool to break into.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-jAF-JfGGak0/UwplG4RqfOI/AAAAAAAAItc/iQtgZSQ0zO4/s912/DSCF4094.JPG)
Incidentally I don't know if this will be of use to anyone but despite having had my workshop for many years my clamping kit is, to say the least, minimalist. Along with a few small home made ones I have four of these clamps left over from the Unimat which preceded my 'first' lathe (ML10). Nice and small they are constantly in use and allow for clamping in some tight spots. The 'packing' is a series of 25mm bar cut into varying lengths and drilled through 6.5mm and counterbored to take a 6mm caphead. This enables screwing to the facplate if desired to keep the packing falling away and, as here, they can also be pressed into service as counterweights
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-szTjBTa1NhE/Uw8lOeTFK_I/AAAAAAAAIvY/gtgNPepJXOY/s912/DSCF4139.JPG)
All clamping, lathe or mill is done using caphead screws of various lengths from 8mm to 120mm - anything required over that then it's out with the studding.
With the case bores and those for the liners done next up was to mill out side clearance for the con-rod. This was a 'deep' hole and that long series finger mill bought for a quid 'just in case' finally saw some use.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-z2jduDaDHO8/Uw40cG8UoNI/AAAAAAAAIuI/KnzbdxzhrCU/s912/DSCF4115.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-_e42EhiZ9UQ/Uw40cMRgRBI/AAAAAAAAIuQ/y3SXuJYcf0M/s912/DSCF4118.JPG)
Milling the transfer ports came next - another 'deep' and basically out of sight operation.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-NdC27vORlqw/Uw40eh2TXjI/AAAAAAAAIuY/CuP8xhrSkQM/s912/DSCF4126.JPG)
The small shell mill made for the Super Tigre build was pressed into service - just needing a longer shank making.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-2wzzJGZoiFM/Uw40cJ4SEZI/AAAAAAAAIuM/IjmxxCPxlQ4/s912/DSCF4123.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-2VXF8dFOmh4/Uw8lOV0xQpI/AAAAAAAAIvU/vjC5YwefHh8/s912/DSCF4138.JPG)
Then finally milling the exhaust ports in at 30 degrees. The position was found by indicating off the plug gauge used for boring the case pushed into the hole.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-3cRWYnjNKJg/Uw8lOvE-Q7I/AAAAAAAAIvc/vgxk-faWPP4/s912/DSCF4145.JPG)
With those ops out of the way the fun(?) begins - chipping away at the outside ;)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-9u4GzGMxNs8/Uw8lQ8IsYKI/AAAAAAAAIvk/vuv-Z4y357c/s912/DSCF4149.JPG)
As said I made a start on that this morning so now I'm off to the workshop for round two - happy days :)
Regards - Ramon
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Looking good so far Ramon, any reason why you did not bore one of the cases all the way through?
J
PS I still use my Unimat clamps too.
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Watching and learning the techniques that might let me make one from a book I am looking after :naughty:
As well as the Unimat clamps, the vice is very nice ;)
Jo
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When I first drew this out I could not fathom why the case was cast with an integral back-plate which then had a hole in it. I decided to leave the plate out and make it a straight through bore. Something obviously fitted into the hole but it would be a while before I could make a guess based on a image on the net and one which, I'm certain, was confirmed recently on some drawings. I'm now convinced it is a crankcase pressure relief valve - no doubt intended to be used in conjunction with a timer to cut the engine on free flight models.
Hi Jason, You must have missed this on the previous post. I drew the plate in situ on the G A but omitted it on the drawing of the case itself. Now I'm fairly certain of what that hole is for I decided to try to make one as close to prototype as possible. You can see the plate as cast on the display board image.
Jo - Like it's owner that vise is now showing it's age ;) and is due for replacement fairly soon. I'm still prevaricating over which one to get - I need to keep the height as low as possible due to that low clearance on the mill.
Managed to get a good bit of roughing done this afternoon - they finished up like this
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-LVlyDZYQuRo/Uw94BLyIoLI/AAAAAAAAIxA/8srRclhqjsU/s912/DSCF4200.JPG)
I think pics of each stage might be a bit overkill on here but there are several pics of the interim stages here - https://picasaweb.google.com/Tug423/Atomatic5#5985134391536951474 - (if you do want them on here though you'll have to say and I'll post as often as I can)
There's a long way to go as yet but it's a start and although somewhat embryonic it's beginning to bear some semblance of what's hoped for.
Regards - Ramon
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That looks like a lot of work to me Ramon...and nice quality work too...especially those out of sight operations...those can always be touchy!!
Bill
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(if you do want them on here though you'll have to say and I'll post as often as I can)
Regards - Ramon
Ramon:
I can only speak for myself, but I like to see the details. Both pictures and description. I pick up a lot seeing how you go about the process and looking at the set-ups. The description of why it was done a particular way is invaluable. I think that's the advantage over magazines, the space is cheap enough to put in detail. Thanks for taking us along.
If seeing the process isn't appreciated by a majority of members I'd sure like to know. I'm trying to put in what I can on another build thread.
Hugh
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Ramon,
Hugh said it all; I enjoy your work and the detail. Please keep it coming.
Jim
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Ramon.
Keep em coming! I'm enjoying every post, and pic. :)
David D
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Ditto on that! I learn a lot from the detail!
Thanks Ramon!
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Hi Guys, It's me being me again - just thought that pics of most ops would be a bit much. I never gave a thought to the subsequent lack of description and as to why ::)
On that note perhaps a quick recap ....
Apart from the two faces that the front housing and back-plate screw into, as well the top and exhaust faces of course nothing on this case ends up flat. I have no real preconceived plan as to how this is all going to proceed apart from the usual approach of taking metal off cautiously bearing in mind to leave it where it needs to be but leaving sufficient in places for suitable work holding.!
I'm visualising that the upright part of the case will be turned in part, the remainder being milled - the whole then being fettled with files and rotary burrs. Initially I'm leaving plenty on - 1mm all round ie 2mm on diameter and this will be gradually reduced as it goes.
First up had to be establishing those angle exhaust stubs
The top was dealt with first - that groove in the top face is 28mm diameter to act as a guide finished diameter is 26mm
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-m4MX1M0bMMQ/Uw932vXYyWI/AAAAAAAAIwQ/mFHeimQSy5M/s912/DSCF4159.JPG)
The 30 degree angle was milled, the actual position (again leaving plenty to come off) was scaled from the drawing :o
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-kvsJ-Tttn9Y/Uw9326fhkrI/AAAAAAAAIwY/bCtmNzjRx4A/s912/DSCF4166.JPG)
The side waste was milled away to 2 mm up on the major diameter around the case
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Wa0woxfxJUA/Uw9326-WFyI/AAAAAAAAIwU/-KnHRiXG3FQ/s912/DSCF4170.JPG)
Then the top portion below the stubs taken down to 28mm
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-SpnK5_0FJ6g/Uw939silVwI/AAAAAAAAIws/1Sx0N82-RSw/s912/DSCF4178.JPG)
Finally for this stage was to remove the waste from the front of the stubs....
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-6QRJJiVMOCw/Uw93_wdvF7I/AAAAAAAAIw4/cV4t6xP-2_0/s912/DSCF4186.JPG)
...Incidentally all the milling was done by 'climb milling' By using a small cutter (6mm) and high speed the feed can be applied quite high without 'crabbing'. (2mm cut 11mm deep here) A dab of coolant was applied by brush to help prevent build up on the tool. Providing the mill is up to it I find this is a much easier way to remove metal without undue stress on the machine or cutter - I'm not recommending it - it just works for me ;)
Which brings it back to where the last post and how they are at present
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-LVlyDZYQuRo/Uw94BLyIoLI/AAAAAAAAIxA/8srRclhqjsU/s912/DSCF4200.JPG)
Thanks for your interest guys - I'll keep you posted of progress - now I'm off to do a bit more before getting ready for tomorrow
It's a 'plastic distraction' - first of the three shows we like to attend a year so it's a day out in Peterborough :D It's also the first sailing race day of the season too ::) - aghhh 'conflict' - but it is enjoyable ;) ;)
Regards - Ramon
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Looking good :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: and as the others have said please put up all the pictures, that's how we learn :praise2:
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Thanks Roger, on that note here are a few more pics from today's short session....
First off was to mill the relief under the stubs
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-uMvkr0IgRdU/UxDz932ApxI/AAAAAAAAIx0/8dj_aFxRKOU/s800/DSCF4205.JPG)
Then bring the top section down to 28mm 'square'
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-hnlTLI28upQ/UxDz96IkDEI/AAAAAAAAIxs/Okt822DLb8Y/s800/DSCF4209.JPG)
A bit more of the lower half was got rid of - nothing 'scientific' just milling to a eyeballed scribed line
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-zc48-KsoknU/UxD0BpGMXUI/AAAAAAAAIyA/a9l9R8R4PMw/s800/DSCF4219.JPG)
And at last they are ready to start bringing to section
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-scquqgRb1ZE/UxD0CUmsOCI/AAAAAAAAIyE/RT5ZG_FsGA8/s800/DSCF4221.JPG)
The 'feet' haven't been left on for a specific purpose - just being left at this stage in case they should 'come in handy'.
Next up is to make an expanding mandrel and begin the early stage of some of the finishing but that won't be until Monday I guess - and there's time to be given to the boiler next week too ;)
That's it for this stage then - thanks for all your interest.
Regards - Ramon
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Coming right along Ramon and a very interesting project!!
Bill
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Hi Guys - managed a bit more yesterday and a little more today. This was more preparation work than actual advancement on the case proper but that should be next time.
First up was to turn up a new expanding mandrel and mount the 'closed' case on to bore out for the backplate. At this stage it still has .5mm to come out before screwcutting. The rear face was skimmed too to bring it exactly square to the bore ready for the next op on the case.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-fnS6Uqvnfxs/UxOcZ96R9WI/AAAAAAAAIzE/FqXzyvdi1y4/s912/DSCF4229.JPG)
It was also used to face both sides of the 'open' case
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-9CVwY8qJQCg/UxOcZ6ZcvDI/AAAAAAAAIzA/FMtO2rVnGLs/s912/DSCF4235.JPG)
A necessary diversion into the cylinder heads came next so two blocks were roughed out ready. A 32 TPI thread gauge was made for the cylinder heads and for the front housing at the same time (I've decided to cut the rear thread at 24 TPI - I'll turn the other end of the gauge when the change wheels get swapped). A plug gauge for the heads and the crankcase liner bores was also turned up.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-fW-oHvkrP5A/UxOccrRALCI/AAAAAAAAIzM/QrGhQlYDzGU/s912/DSCF4245.JPG)
The length of thread inside the cylinder heads is 7.5mm and with such a small groove to run out in it was decided that this would be much better to do in reverse. With such low cutting forces involved it's most unlikely the chuck will unscrew and it certainly makes screw cutting such threads a lot less stressful. By keeping to 32 and 24 TPI the leadscrew (8 TPI) can be engaged anywhere which helps things even more. An old tool was pressed into service to turn the groove in....
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-gtlLPAIUOn0/UxUET9uOLYI/AAAAAAAAI0k/VCaf6qNMxWE/s912/DSCF4246.JPG)
..and an internal thread tool ground up from a discarded long series 6mm slot drill shank also found in the tin of previously used lathe bits
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-NluboZ9M_kQ/UxUEULyB9bI/AAAAAAAAI0o/ObRmSFPCz7o/s912/DSCF4255.JPG)
The threads were made a nice fit to the gauge and these in turn will be used as a gauge on the crankcase thread. The bore was taken out until the plug gauge was a nice slide fit and the hole for the comp screw drilled and tapped at the same time. These will be mounted to a mandrel at a much later stage to turn the outer profile and cut the fins.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-UWNZ9qNL5PQ/UxUEUOQ6P0I/AAAAAAAAI0s/AULvlP6BsaY/s912/DSCF4250.JPG)
The two threaded rings incidentally are for use as protectors once the threads are cut on the cases themselves.
That's the current state of play - tomorrow may see a slight distraction in getting the boiler flue done if friend John has recovered sufficiently from the seasonal malaise.
Talking of distractions - the 'plastic distraction' on Saturday was a very enjoyable day enhanced by the fact that the F8E Crusader was awarded best in class for 1/32 aircraft :)
That's it for tonight then -having seen that fantastic work by 5700 :praise2: I hope this littl'un still has some appeal ;)
Regards - Ramon
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That looks like a lot of progress to me Ramon, and yes....still very appealing too!!
Bill
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A very informative post Ramon particularly as I see in my future a similar thread having to be cut ;)
J
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That looks like a lot of progress to me Ramon, and yes....still very appealing too!!
Bill
DITTO!
:ThumbsUp:
Dave
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Jason - I'm sure you and others have seen the method behind the madness but just to be clear - the screw cutting was done from the inside groove working outwards - hence doing it in reverse for a R/H thread. The saddle was brought up to a stop and the leadscrew engaged - it sure takes the worry away of having to stop 'in the groove'. Yes I know - I need one of Gray's magic clutches but that would be a 'sidetrack too far' I'm afraid ::)
I managed to get the first case set up to bore and screw cut today but John came over and it was dropped in favour of soldering the boiler flue ;) - that appears to be successful so I now need to get that pressure tested so I can get it inspected which means progress on the 'Ato's' will be affected by some degree over the next few days.
Glad to hear you're still enjoying it Bill (and Dave)
Regards for now - Ramon
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Glad to hear you're still enjoying it Bill (and Dave)
Me too!
I mean...I'm enjoying it too! ;D
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She's very shapely.
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I'm loving, watching the beautiful shapes hidden inside, gradually being revealed........ :)
Keep on, keeping on Ramon. :ThumbsUp:
David D
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It's been a somewhat distracting time of late but I have finally managed to find a bit of time to get that screw cutting done on the top of the case - though not, as it turned out, without a minor anxiety crisis :o
The 'closed' case was set up first and clocked true to take a final skim out of the bore for the liner to bring it square to the main bore, establish the correct depth and importantly get the screw thread concentric. The case was set square and forwards to the face plate by interposing a parallel and, much against a lifetime of advice never to do so, held with only one clamp bolt as there simply was nowhere to back it up with another. Cuts were kept extremely light and no movement occurred.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-1wYfSzaesOc/UxeaSXWg7TI/AAAAAAAAI10/p4Va4jQl5Lg/s912/DSCF4270.JPG)
A previously turned plug meant the tail-stock could add support for that interrupted cut around the top. The top slide was set over at 30 degrees so the top surface of the exhaust stubs could be cleaned up to get a good idea of their high point
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-1DXYIqs8JHE/UxeaSepfc4I/AAAAAAAAI1w/eCBKNrOfm98/s912/DSCF4273.JPG)
The outer diameter was taken down to 0.2mm above finished size to allow for the milling and fettling ops to fair in. The screwed portion reduced to 26.0 mm then screw cut using a cylinder head for a guage
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-9ZcbT4AXpvY/UxjgfdLbnjI/AAAAAAAAI2Y/VPHqplv2WEQ/s912/DSCF4276.JPG)
This first one went well so a change of the change wheels back to fine feed and it was time for the second one. The bore diameters incidentally were done to the same plug gauge as the cylinder heads
Another change of wheels and the last screw cutting. This went just as well as the first until trying the head on. The thread was a little tight so it was gently chased trying the head, the fit improving each time. Constantly aware of the possibility of the ali 'picking up' this was done quite gingerly until, with a slight tightening with less than half a mil to go I felt it grab - :-\. It was at this point with a rapidly deepening sick feeling that I knew this was not going to be my day ::) and kicked myself for not using some tallow that I had thought about doing earlier but overlooked. Some releasing fluid was squirted over in the hope it would penetrate and the head gripped with emery to gain a good purchase. Very tight it moved about half a turn. To improve the grip anti-slip matting was then tried - then heating it - then, in desperation, a pair of chain grips used - the only thing achieved was to undo the face plate. Reality dawned - it was well and truly stuck - big time - so for the first time, though I've read and heard about it, I could quickly see that the only way out was to turn it off. Bugger!
The OD was cut back using a parting tool then parted off to leave the 'ring' ...
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-V4hmrT9zJdU/UxjgfkeJztI/AAAAAAAAI2g/uhvIMhIA-HQ/s912/DSCF4283.JPG)
.... which was very gingerly turned until it began to break up
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-yb4QyeN2_Cg/UxjgfshgPYI/AAAAAAAAI2c/6ewCMqoooTQ/s912/DSCF4285.JPG)
As you can see most of it fell or was pulled away save this one small piece stuck between the thread - absolutely bloody solid...
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-4mJsqIJ3yGg/UxjgkB9BfFI/AAAAAAAAI2o/u_p-ooar_mQ/s912/DSCF4290.JPG)
But after checking the bore was running true and re-aligning the tool it soon 'turned out' OK - Pheww
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-KCVMhUoVdFs/Uxjgl3jZGqI/AAAAAAAAI20/2eEw9rYS4HU/s912/DSCF4292.JPG)
Though it's down on diameter by .1 mm that's not so much an issue as the new cylinder head can be made to match
So, though one of them is there as a back up there are still two viable cases :D
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-m8ZrkRD2Oxc/UxjgmPTqcAI/AAAAAAAAI24/Ut1o9W7P30k/s912/DSCF4295.JPG)
With this op done the lathe is free to make up some plugs for testing the flue on the boiler build and with tomorrow earmarked for boat prep for Saturday it'll be a 'day or three' before the next phase.
In the meantime I hope that little 'epic' is of interest
Regards - Ramon
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Nice save Ramon! It happens!...at least you saved the case.
Dave
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Ramon, I know that sick feeling to well and that was a nice save. You have supplied some great information on this thread and I for one am learning as you progress with it. Thanks for sharing.
Don
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In the meantime I hope that little 'epic' is of interest
Most definitely.
A very interesting post. I'm glad all ended well.
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Wow nice save Ramon,
It is really a bad day when things gall; it is amazing how fast it can happen and how tight (instantly) things can get. My last time was shrink fitting a cast iron valve guide into a cast iron housing; they should have almost fell together but within a 1/2" they locked up tight. Fortunately I was able to press them apart and salvage the mess. An engine machinist friend ordered me some lube especially formulated for press fitting applications. I never would have believed that cast in cast would have done this; I guess I learned something here.
Enjoying your progress on this beautiful little engine.
Dave
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Fantastic work so far :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
I am following this thread with great interest :)
Nicolas
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:o Nasty when it does that, pleased you have a way forward :ThumbsUp:
With this op done the lathe is free to make up some...
There is a cure for that little problem :naughty:.. more lathes ;)
Jo
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I am still watching and learning. Wonderful work Ramon.
Jim
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Good to hear that's well received Guys - thanks for all your comments. I was well relieved to think I hadn't made a scrapper so early on I can tell you.
Dave (Otto) you're so right there, shrink fitting can be a nightmare - it always amazes me despite the prior preparation and running through eventualities before hand just how fast things cool and grab - you certainly do have to be so 'on yer toes' ;) Old fashioned tallow is very good for preventing pick up but despite thinking I should use it my haste got the better of me ::)
Jo - only problem with another/more lathes is I would never know which one to use first ::) There's enough 'conflict' twixt 'plastic' yacht's and engines as it is ;)
I notice I left an image out so have just modified the post.
Now it's time to fix some sails then start on those boiler parts again.
Back on this soon though :D
Regards - Ramon
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Not really related to model engineering, but I have had stainless on stainless (A4 marine grade) gall up before now connecting up some diving equipment. After the thread stripped inside the nut, it took a sharp hacksaw blade poked in a tiny gap and hand held to cut the M8 rod free. Not fun!
Anyway, I got given (by a friendly boat yard) a tub of Rocol anti-sieze which works really well. They do a version for use with aluminium.
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Most similar metals will pick up or gall with each other Edward - what tee'd me off was I knew about it - was ready for it - and still got caught :-[
In my diving days 'MS4' silicone grease was the only lubricant used on any diving equipment - I still have a tube of it - well used over the years and nearly gone but I guess it will see me out. I used some of it only this morning on a rudder tube.
It's thirty three years since I last donned a 'RAT HAT' and got in the water :o Happy Days (Very)
Regards - Ramon
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I know about galling now! Thankfully nothing that was life support was affected, just some framing.
Silicone grease still used today on most equipment, although on my oxygen service equipment I use Christolube - very sparingly as it is £35 for a 10g tube!
Anyway, sorry to distract, my appologies:)
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No need to apologise Edward - a bit of chat never hurt anyone ;) - besides I very rarely give a thought to my diving days and you kicked off a whole load of happy memories.
Anyone else out there an ex 'deep sea' ;) if so we'll move to the chatterbox :D
Ramon
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I don't think that diving on the Great Barrier reef counts :lolb:
No one in their right mind dives down here by the Solent: its too cold and shipwrecks are everywhere :shrug:
Jo
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I don't think that diving on the Great Barrier reef counts :lolb:
Jo
Oh you'd be right there Jo - my first commercial dive was in the Severn at Avonmouth. Very cold and pitch black from that point on over the years it just got colder, even blacker at times and a lot more deeper - infact much more deeper ;)
Ramon
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To avoid to much diversion, I've started a little thread here: http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,3312.new.html#new
And Jo, I wouldn't know about the GBR, never been, but i have done 500+ dives in the channel. but I freely admit I have never been of the right mind:)
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Back in the day , whilst me Pops was keeping me employed, we shrank fit huge couplings on pumps and motors in paper mills (big enough a crane had to lift) He knew I was somewhat, well, full blown OCD, so, he would tell me; "polish coupling and shaft to Hell and back, mic it 3 times to make damn sure, don't blue the coupling and if you stick it, your ass is mine. We used rosebuds and Tempil sticks to heat the couplings and check the temps. Long before IFR. I never stuck one. He was 6'4" and 240 pounds, I was 5'8" and 185 pounds, I understood the difference :lolb: :lolb:
Whiskey
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Tapping lube in the thread and propane torch on the internally threaded part has worked for me in the past. It doesn't need much heat, but you want to get it warm quickly so it expands before the heat transfers to the part inside.
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Hi Guys, with the boiler flue now done it was back on the cases today and a good old session was had :)
First up was a bit more preparation work for the coming ops. This consisted of turning two plates to fit the main bores and fitting a false pad in order to take a centre support. The plates are .2mm up on the finished 40mm diameter of the lower case. Not actually required immediately they are there as protection and a guide for the turning...
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-PAYRKX-m9Z4/Ux9a2QQI6DI/AAAAAAAAI4Q/5M2LMUa9hC4/s912/DSCF4318.JPG)
Then yet another expanding mandrel recycled from previous use (hence the surplus length)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-JdX1xVlscVw/Ux9a2dIm9TI/AAAAAAAAI4U/_xlueelwCYE/s912/DSCF4327.JPG)
and the top portion below the stubs could be brought to the same diameter as that above - .2mm up on 26mm. The parting tool was reground square and a slight groove ground in the front face on the corner of the wheel the corners having a slight radius 'touched on'
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-5flnzHpJDZI/Ux9a9Y1Bu4I/AAAAAAAAI4s/L3n7n1p2T6o/s912/DSCF4340.JPG)
With the top-slide set over at 60 degrees the 26.2 diameter was continued as far as possible toward the stubs
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-F4lRGLBwP9A/Ux9a9iTbzAI/AAAAAAAAI4w/q0AiMEh5lUs/s912/DSCF4346.JPG)
Leaving the mandrel in the chuck it was transferred to the dividing head on the mill for further work.
First off was to face the stubs down to the case diameter on the rear face
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-R_GkMh8Wbdo/Ux9bAmfeb0I/AAAAAAAAI44/nnPM3eYRfk4/s912/DSCF4349.JPG)
Then removing the waste on the front
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-z3CUgpPr0eo/Ux9bGoUywSI/AAAAAAAAI5Q/RampahNhOvE/s912/DSCF4356.JPG)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-yEJ9WnuZ-LY/Ux9bERAIoLI/AAAAAAAAI5A/3aMlz2MUbS4/s912/DSCF4360.JPG)
The cases were then set up to have some reference lines scribed on using a sharp boring tool
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-G2HfOArQLwk/Ux9bFeP3KsI/AAAAAAAAI5I/pr7DqgLu5p0/s912/DSCF4368.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-58KWJy6B4sc/Ux93xrC4W3I/AAAAAAAAI5s/EheorSaT1Uw/s912/DSCF4377.JPG)
Then using an angle plate the stubs were set vertical and the nerve racking process of chipping away free hand to remove as much as possible without stepping over that 'point of no return' began
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/--oMqKG5pIqI/Ux93yVTa61I/AAAAAAAAI54/yWjO55ENFyg/s912/DSCF4381.JPG)
Ten minutes or so later with a rotary burr and some hand filing the first corner began to emerge
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-_8CvZB_QcyQ/Ux93x5Z2-7I/AAAAAAAAI50/Ujyn0VQXTw8/s912/DSCF4384.JPG)
There's a long way still to go but its beginning to look more and more viable :)
This next stage of milling and fettling is going to take a while so I'll report on the outcome once all this top end is finished.
Thanks for looking in - hope it's still keeping you amused ;)
Regards - Ramon
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Ramon, I've been following your stuff with awe. When watching the likes of you I feel like a child doing finger paints whilst watching an old master create. Great stuff.
Whiskey
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Ramon, like Eric I have been here from the start and it's hard not to follow when someone is creating such beautiful work. It's for sure I like............. :praise2: :praise2:
Don
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Whiskey done said it good. I concur.
Jim
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amazing :) Keep it up Ramon!
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Ramon, I've been following your stuff with awe. When watching the likes of you I feel like a child doing finger paints whilst watching an old master create. Great stuff.
Whiskey
YUP!
Ditto!
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Awsome work there Ramon this is proving to be an education :NotWorthy: :praise2: :praise2:.
I think I will stick to steam engines and boilers, they are tough enough.
One thought crossed my mind... given your recent galling problem and subsequent most excellent recovery... are you proposing to Hard Anodise the cylinder heads to minimise this on the final assembly?
I think we would all be horrified to see one of the heads get jammed due to another galling issue :o :hellno:.
How did the boiler flu go with the inspector?
Best regards.
Sandy. :cheers:
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Hi Guys - Thanks as usual for your interest in this build :ThumbsUp:.
'Whiskey' (and 'cohorts') - that's truly a real nice thing to say but surely there are quite a few on here who deserve such a comment far more :???: - I really don't think too much about what I do, I just do it but the nicest thing is I get to share it on a regular basis with others who have similar outlook :)
Sandy - (I can't get the flue inspected until next week but all being well it will be done on Thursday) I hadn't given thought to 'hard' anodising but you have now given me something to consider - thanks for your input on this.
If I can successfully get one case then my intention was to finish it much the same as Les Stone's original - polished with a little bling, anodised head and spinner etc. If things go well and I end up with two then I'd like to do the other much like the original and plain all over - bead blasted case and ally coloured head.
The thought of galling on assembly is certainly an issue to be kept in mind. Not only is the head screwed on (a design feature which I have never liked incidentally due to the propensity for the head to unwind when running) but the back plate and front housing are screwed (LH threads) into the crankcase too. Running over your comment then I'm wondering if it would be possible to hard anodise the parts in order to 'harden' the threads, the 'polished' ones having the polished areas masked off and the others bead blasted after anodising.
I've not done any 'hard' anodising but I believe this is done at much lower temperature than usual. When I did my first tests on the early attempts it was on a bitterly cold day the tank close to the open door of the workshop. The first test piece exhibited a superb smooth and hard surface, totally non conductive but would not accept a colour - a characteristic of hard anodising. Perhaps I can reproduce that again possibly cooling the ano tank with ice.
I had a good but tedious session yesterday and this morning shaping around those exhaust ports. A few pics then of that progress so far....
First off was to get everything together - files, burrs marker pen and yes, the ubiquitous cup of tea to steady the nerves ;)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-p2UpMez_p3Y/UyIXPz9IcPI/AAAAAAAAI6c/2J0HmvVQtPQ/s912/DSCF4397.JPG)
Constantly applying marker pen keeps a real tab on what's left and instant indication of hitting somewhere you don't want too.
Note the tape around the top as protection. This is three layers laid on top of one another and then cut to the width required. A wider band had previously been applied beneath the stubs to protect it from rotary burr over run.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-MNYLPoa9ZVY/UyIXQM1CTwI/AAAAAAAAI6k/V4Wkt2rvBsc/s912/DSCF4401.JPG)
It didn't take as long to get them roughed as anticipated but long enough I guess as the old hands and fingers were soon suffering a smidgeon of age related RSI ::)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-dGJn9oLd6Kg/UyIXQB8oOkI/AAAAAAAAI6g/9lUEuwE0ZZE/s912/DSCF4404.JPG)
One was then set up as before to have the front of the stubs 'nibbled' away before filing the front profile to shape and then enlarging and shaping the inner surfaces with burrs and files.
Rear view...
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-MZOTBvfuE_U/UyIXWfy9ZcI/AAAAAAAAI64/57jeOJAQAE8/s912/DSCF4420.JPG)
....and front
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-hhO4biqWm6k/U-hvlAU169I/AAAAAAAAJxA/QhwpNCxT2Bw/s912/DSCF4421.JPG)
That's as far as it got today and it's going to be a 'day or three' now before I can get to grips with the second one - several matters are pulling from several directions not least an urgent need to get to grips in the garden. Can't complain, it's at least two months since doing anything out there - now where has that time been spent :o
Regards for now - Ramon
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I've been looking in too. The complexity of the parts is simply amazing.
I would love to build an engine like this someday so watching you is very educational.
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Masterful Ramon...wonderful to watch and follow along.
Bill
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Magnificent! Well done Ramon!
Dave
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Comming along nicely Ramon, I can now see the wisdom of the thread protector and how it took the bashing from the rotary tool rather than the threads.
J
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...'Whiskey' (and 'cohorts')...
Hey!
I resemble that remark
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Ramon, Ramon, Ramon...
Cheers, Hugh.
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Hi Guy's - it's been a while but I have finally managed to find some time to progress things a little :) .
The cases are now just needing the L/H threads put in and the con rod relief turned but that will have to wait until the front housings and back-plates are made as these will be required to use as thread gauges.
Here are some pics of the final shaping .....
First was to get that last exhaust stub shaped - though a bit repetitious I thought a few more pics of the stages might be in order...
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-FfpnyVNEPpw/Uz7RuRnaJjI/AAAAAAAAJGI/0SLRhlsfMRA/s912/DSCF4549.JPG)
Initial fettling with the rotary burr - note the masking tape (three layers ) protection
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-TRT7tC5jMCs/Uz7RuXy_RpI/AAAAAAAAJF8/OQU-Wazq9ys/s912/DSCF4552.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-DFHh3nVWWi4/Uz7RuWWiEOI/AAAAAAAAJGE/E2cGa2RE2Nk/s912/DSCF4560.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-FPTyEDpWlbo/Uz7RzWnXMzI/AAAAAAAAJGQ/rzhvGoZtBVI/s912/DSCF4565.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-dRPgsUBtENc/Uz7R2BjszsI/AAAAAAAAJGc/Way7cKM4lTM/s912/DSCF4567.JPG)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-a-kAU5STRyY/Uz7R2sDMv5I/AAAAAAAAJGg/AWasGEac-A0/s912/DSCF4573.JPG)
The rest was down to filing using a variety of small files and emery to bring it to the same stage as the last one.
Next up was to tackle the lower end.
First off was to get rid of the feet and some of the waste...
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ti1QAa1aWJM/Uz7R5ZcJXDI/AAAAAAAAJGo/p88BAlqJVi8/s912/DSCF4576.JPG)
Using a 6mm FC3 with the corners rounded off the profile was milled in a series of flats - one full turn of the dividing head - the stop point was worked out for each side (the blue mark) so as to leave enough for final fettling by eye
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-anSpRjNTHTw/Uz7R9ygDCOI/AAAAAAAAJG0/fRj57cmHF-Y/s912/DSCF4579.JPG)
The outer rear dimension was sized using that long series mill - two steel discs had previously been turned for later use to the rear and front dimensions (41.00 and 40.00) and these had registers on that located the bore. The disc was held in situ and the cutter touched on then backed off 0.1mm and the stop set. The front end was done likewise using a long series 1/4 slot drill extended as far as dared - a bit whippy but it did the job :D
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-X1XRJ57kblg/Uz7R-RJUKwI/AAAAAAAAJG4/PocwVybPzYs/s912/DSCF4582.JPG)
Finally 'chipping' away by eye as much as dared with a 1/4 ball nose
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-RNvzUbDfOYE/Uz7R_nAvR1I/AAAAAAAAJHA/sZDNfQYXAXw/s912/DSCF4583.JPG)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-zqBB41pfMcE/U0MAJAmFvbI/AAAAAAAAJKw/SD8LhwP5DDQ/s912/DSCF4590.JPG)
The second case was then brought to the same stage before repeating the exercise but with the dividing head set a minus 1 degree to give the 2 degree included taper on the lower case.
First off was to prove the angle and ensure the cut flared out at each end
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-1zh8QuP2RLw/U0MAK0FnO6I/AAAAAAAAJK4/5GbH-UTCsjc/s912/DSCF4591.JPG)
The case was then cut as before but this time with half turns of the dividing head to give much smaller flats.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-wWUZ7KJV6No/U0MAOp0XwXI/AAAAAAAAJLA/NWNyJMe3tGA/s912/DSCF4594.JPG)
The discs were then bolted on ready for the shaping
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-b9DiIOWvz8Q/U0MAQjms1-I/AAAAAAAAJLI/PPz0hJRlbRQ/s912/DSCF4600.JPG)
First off more tape protection - really important here as any ding into the case above would be very difficult to disguise.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-xLW15OhfNzg/U0MASBAjMOI/AAAAAAAAJLQ/ftVodgiJXUE/s912/DSCF4603.JPG)
Then the fun begins ;). Taking your time and not applying anything more than light pressure is the key here, letting the tool do the work just slowly chipping away
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-oWlIENQXHS8/U0MAiOjAbZI/AAAAAAAAJMI/X_1hHIELe7E/s912/DSCF4636.JPG)
You can see why there's a need for three layers of tape here! This is the first stage taking it down to the thickness of the tape and getting the basic shape
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-AME638KnGWc/U0MAVjyypYI/AAAAAAAAJLY/PoT2teV2gpE/s912/DSCF4607.JPG)
Ready for the second stage - an even steadier hand and slower approach required ;)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/--lU-97IiJew/U0MAXhRpgzI/AAAAAAAAJLk/MOYYFquUtS4/s912/DSCF4611.JPG)
The temptation to go to far has to be resisted - it's much better to have to file for a bit longer than go 'over the line'
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-8XVe3VRZgAU/U0MAZOV2hKI/AAAAAAAAJLo/1kwZ9MMIN80/s912/DSCF4615.JPG)
It took about an hour and a half to file it out and another half to fine tune and polish it down with 240 grit emery, 400, 600 800 grit wet and dry and a final rub with medium and fine scotchbrite
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-QlYA03GDI1A/U0MAcMSEhlI/AAAAAAAAJLw/QZaarTrTS1o/s912/DSCF4617.JPG)
Then it just remained to 'do it again' ::) but I think you might agree it was all worth it ;D
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-408B0UKK1qg/U0MAhT542YI/AAAAAAAAJMA/aCd5pmXhzuc/s912/DSCF4645.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-WXX80kchhc8/U0MAkSC1jwI/AAAAAAAAJMQ/APMwqs4q7s0/s912/DSCF4647.JPG)
Domestic interference looms it's ugly head plus a certain boiler requires some more input - one day at a time - it'll get there ;)
As always hope that's of interest.
regards - Ramon
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Definitely of interest - watching in awe as they take shape!
Simon.
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Thank you very much for taking the time to show how and way. It is most interesting to see a craftsman and how he does it. The detailed step by step really helps to visualize the process involved to make things take shape. What's is interesting is the time involved doing each step, as most people don't realized all that's involved to accomplish the task at hand. Please continue showing when you have more time, it is much appreciated.
Regards Don
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Amazing, Ramon. Just amazing. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Simon
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Wow - those blending radiuses came out brilliantly :praise2:
Happy following this thread - I'm enjoying your work immensely :)
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if I had just seen a photo of a finished case i would not have believed it had been machined, filed and hand finished from solid!
A superb photo essay on how to do it properly
peter
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Its hard to add to what has already been said Ramon. Most impressive work!!! :praise2: :praise2:
Bill
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Simply, beautifully, gobsmacking........... :praise2: :praise2:
David D
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Looking good :ThumbsUp:
I noticed you mentioned using files on the aluminium: Aluminium is a horrible material for clogging files.. Are you using chalk or something to stop it clogging? :???:
Jo
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As always Guys, thanks for your interest and support - much appreciated.
Jo - I have used French chalk before to prevent pinning but so far have found that there's no need to use any here. The ali - 6082/He30 - files quite well with such small amounts to come off and clogging is minimal, a quick swipe down the 'overall' is enough to release the build up on most occasions and a light rub with a fine wire brush if any gets stuck. I try to use quite coarse files (mainly rat tail) with a very light action to get down to the shape required before changing out to Swiss files #2 and 4 cut to finish.
Some of you may recall that some time back I was asked to give a talk on these engines to the Norwich MES. Well, kind souls that they are, they must be 'gluttons for punishment' as they've asked me back to do it again tomorrow night. This time though I can take some work in progress ;)
I'll get back on this as soon as I can - thanks again
Regards - Ramon
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Ramon, absolutely amazing. The work of a true artisan :NotWorthy:
Whiskey
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:o
if I had just seen a photo of a finished case i would not have believed it had been machined, filed and hand finished from solid!
My thoughts exactly.
Awesome work. Superb.
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Craftsmanship of the highest order
:praise2:
Rod
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Ramon, I agree, "it's all worth it"! Lovely.
Hugh.
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Hi Guy's - no further progress to report on but just like to say I was made extremely welcome at the Norwich ME Society last night.
The talk appeared to go down well and despite having done a previous one just over a year ago there was still lot's of interest in the engines. No one left early (always a good sign) and no one sighed (even better!). A good plug for MEM was got in and hopefully we'll see at least a couple of new 'registers' if not posters as a result.
Having re-oiled all the engines and popped them back in store ready for the Guildford show I'm going to take a break for a few days before getting to grips and soldering that boiler up.
In the meantime - enjoy yourselves :)
Back soon - Ramon
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Hello Ramon,
Have you made any progress lately, it's been a few months since the last update :) :)
Nicolas
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Hi Nicolas - I'm afraid I have only just seen your enquiry.
No, there has been no further progress but that is about to change. Re-building the boiler took longer than anticipated and I have, since then, been busy on a non ME 'distraction' That is now very near completion so I'm looking forward to getting back on the engines within a week or so :).
Thanks for your interest, I'll be back on this as soon as I can
Regards - Ramon
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An absolutely fantastic build thread showcasing your amazing skills....well done. Waiting patiently for you to get back to continuing work on this very interesting project.
Karol
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Avast there shipmates, 'tis toime at last to scribe me mark (well it is 'International Talk Like a Pirate' day :D) - I just love it!
It doesn't seem that long since last working on these but five months has passed :o With the 'plastic' well and truly packed away though it was time to get on with the next stage - getting the cases screw-cut to take the front housings and backplates.
This is not going to be just a straightforward 'screw cut this to fit that' as you will see it's going to be a bit of a chicken and egg situation with work holding and getting things aligned etc
First off then was to rough out the front housings and then screwcut them to act as a thread gauge. Because of the protrusion of that vertical intake these were done from a block. (The hole was not a mistake - the material (HE30 - 6082) was previously a 'scrapper' at a friends works - thanks Ken ;))
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-0fDC9h2FsF8/VByVfv4n_HI/AAAAAAAAL3c/wsZCU0br7v0/s912/DSCF5435.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-66qctYZ2rL0/VByVfk7FuaI/AAAAAAAAL3g/11Jn6UKOEM8/s912/DSCF5437.JPG)
The inner faces were turned and the bore for the crankshaft bearing put in (drilled, bored then reamed to ensure concentricity)
and the LH 26tpi thread cut. Originally I had thought of using a constant 32 tpi but after that galling on the cylinder head it was thought a stronger, more open, thread form might hedge that potential off a little better.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-YjQwcHWGvj0/VByVf8UxufI/AAAAAAAAL3k/e3mTen-YgVk/s912/DSCF5441.JPG)
They were then set on an expanding mandrel and the front ends roughed to with .5mm and the faces finished. There is some milling to do around the face - the end will be screw-cut after that op is completed
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-9zGtlNwqpDk/VByVj5uLo8I/AAAAAAAAL3s/aqSKdLw3owE/s912/DSCF5446.JPG)
At the same time two back plates were roughed from round bar and the inner faces screw cut - same thread - and faced to finish. (No pics)
Next up was to pop the cases back on the expanding mandrel (still sitting unmoved in the chuck since April) and screw-cut the internal thread for the backplates.........
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-bwBdD_YZzZc/VByVn5VsgzI/AAAAAAAAL34/VSNM6dIrsY0/s912/DSCF5447.JPG)
........and that in turn was used to hold the backplate to turn the recess (Lathe running backwards of course so it didn't unscrew)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-f61MDc-QJs0/VByVoRwpfOI/AAAAAAAAL38/FjAW3WDusk8/s912/DSCF5456.JPG)
That's as far as this session has got but at last two parts fitting each other :D If the threads look 'dirty' that's because they have been coated with tallow to prevent galling.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-vTOgaRogk7c/VByVpg2zSoI/AAAAAAAAL4E/bkbhmkTNKNw/s912/DSCF5461.JPG)
I had just screwed the second one up tight as Sue arrived home. That short break in concentration and bang the thing was solid. Rapid increase in anxiety level and instant visions of having to turn this backplate out. Trying not to panic I got out some of that anti slip mat that I keep for getting a good grip but no it wasn't having any of it :o Oh dear-o bloody dear :(
Then, just as that 'hot feeling' began to creep it's way up, the penny dropped - Left Hand Thread ::) 'Well Shiver me Timbers' I croaked :) :) :) :) :)
It's been good to finally get back on this for a couple of days though it's sailing tomorrow ;)
Regards - Ramon
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Well I guess you just couldn't stand it anymore having all these running engines to look at. Glad to see you back on it again Ramon.
Don
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True to the subject line Ramon...its still a beauty!!
Bill
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Great update Ramon; nice pictures of beautiful work!.
I'll bet that was quite the fright - till you suddenly remembered the left hand threads! I've had that kind of thing before. It sure is a nice feeling of relief when you get that epiphany and all is right with the world again!
Kim
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Ah - finally I can get my fix of diesel engine build soothed a bit again ;) 8)
Nice to see you back on this track Again Ramon :praise2:
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Thanks Don, Bill, Kim and Admiral - good to see you here :)
Yes Don, I do like the plastic modelling but it's all a bit anti-climatic once finished and in it's box - at least with an engine you have the running to enjoy as well as the sound and that 'smell' of course ;)
All the screw cutting is now completed without any further problems and the case parts all fit together well. Heres a few pics to bring it up to date .......
Keeping the case still on the mandrel the backplate was pulled up tight and the mounting holes drilled in.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-lQqSmLzW6Bg/VB8t4jdgh2I/AAAAAAAAL5I/IOoobRkhSMY/s912/DSCF5467.JPG)
I have a feeling that as things settle in a little the tendency will be for the backplate to go 'over centre' slightly hence the two spotted holes. These are situated on the centre line of the thread so should that feeling prove right I will drill and ream for a couple of dowels. I don't want to do that at this stage in case that action creates galling of the thread.
With the backplate pulled up tight this was used to grip in the soft jaws for threading the front end, the nylon block acting as a stop to prevent it possibly unscrewing with the cutting forces.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-s9kZe-TOqFA/VB8t4gs-LVI/AAAAAAAAL5A/anFyIkZY_BQ/s912/DSCF5470.JPG)
As you can see there's nothing special about the tool used - just ground up from a piece of HSS on the offhand grinder to match a M&W thread gauge at 55 degrees.
Taking the last few cuts very gingerly and running through as many as four to five times on the same setting on the last cut it was taken out until the front housing would screw in without drag. Though not drawn initially the housing has a register turned that fits inside the case to ensure alignment rather than rely on the thread
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-6dz3GwEe8JM/VB8uAJfnX8I/AAAAAAAAL5c/1yuVXgcFnHQ/s912/DSCF5473.JPG)
With the housings tightened fully home the case was set truly horizontal and a 4mm slot milled in on the centre line. This will aid alignment on the next op which will be carried out on the rotary table to mill the excess away and finish mill the outer profile
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-uMU_9GQRg_E/VCBtBcBqmPI/AAAAAAAAL6Q/PbrHywb1Ync/s912/DSCF5488.JPG)
Ready then for that next op - which hopefully will get tackled tomorrow. BTW the black is MolyB anti gall paste - it will all be cleaned later ;)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-1HcWmaAM0io/VCBtBAdGLLI/AAAAAAAAL6M/Ex7oabYwEhY/s912/DSCF5495.JPG)
That's it for tonight - if you've done so - thanks for looking in
Ramon
PS The keen eyed might notice the internal backplate has been machined away. No, not the result of a mistake but a decision based on the assembly ahead. If the backplate remained all assembly would have to be done from the front end with the attendant risk of that thread picking up should removal be necessary. This way the engine can be assembled as normal via the rear opening.
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Nice work Ramon
Nice tip with the nylon anti rotation stop , files away for future use
Stuart
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I do like the plastic modelling but it's all a bit anti-climatic once finished and in it's box - at least with an engine you have the running to enjoy as well as the sound and that 'smell' of course ;)
You mean to say that you don't throw them out your bedroom window to see if they will fly :LittleDevil:
Good to see you back on these again
J
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I live in a bungalow Jason - not much height there though I could try from the roof I suppose ;D
Yes, it's good to be back - it seems far too long a break.
Ramon
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Wow. I've just caught with this build.
Fantastic job, Ramon
Bill
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Another great update, Raymon :ThumbsUp: great to see you back at it again :)
Just wanted to ask..... what are the holes for around your 3 jaw chuck. Is it for indexing? (might sound like a stupid question but I have no idea :Lol: )
Nicolas
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Are you bringing these to old Warden :naughty:
Jo
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Old Warden? Whats on there, Jo?
Beautiful work too, Ramon :ThumbsUp:
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Old Warden? Whats on there, Jo?
The Aeromodelers festival of flight.
Where on Sunday some of us might be running our model engines (or using them in an attempt to attract more engine castings to our collection :mischief:)
Jo
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Now that's quite tempting... :thinking:
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Thanks Stuart, Nick, Bill and 'RG' for your kind comments.
Nicolas - you are correct they are indeed for indexing. There is a plate that engages in the bull wheel to give divs of 60 - this can be removed and fitted with a detent for the holes in the chuck 48 and 50 divs - (with apologies for repeating these pics) ....
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-DySH6Nz8SHs/T9zrwPJXWmI/AAAAAAAALcM/1xjHT-rdflA/s912/DSCF0484.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-GnVIbWNbnZY/T9zr3bUNBEI/AAAAAAAALb4/wY8SveBXoY4/s912/DSCF0490.JPG)
Are you bringing these to old Warden :naughty:
Not until they're finished Jo :D
Regards - Ramon
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Ramon
My Myford is fitted with a bull wheel indexer as a standard factory fittment
It gives in the base of the tooth and on top of the tooth so it doubles the indexes possible
But yours does the same job
Stuart
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That's interesting Stuart - when did that become standard ?
My S7 was bought in 1980/81 if I remember right - it has the power cross feed with the ball ended lead screw engaging handle (as opposed to the cast version). I think it may have been one of the last of the 'grey' ones.
As a matter of interest I also have this attachment to fit in the same place as the detent plate - (Obviously it's bolted down when in use)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-h-RIUUb-OJ8/T9zr5sWjxrI/AAAAAAAALYA/BB8Aq4sj5yA/s800/DSCF0492.JPG)
I made this when I began the Bentley ::) it will allow exact rotational positioning of the chuck and lock it solid. It doesn't get much use but that said infact, used it only yesterday when milling those locating slots - it's a very useful aid when you need it ;)
Milling on those front housings went well today :D - bit more to do before an update though.
Regards - Ramon
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It gives in the base of the tooth and on top of the tooth so it doubles the indexes possible
I think your effective 120 hole index only gives you an extra 4 divisions: 8, 24, 40 and 120. Ramon gets these (except 120) from his 48 holes, plus of course, he gets all the fives from the fifty.
But they are both very useful methods of dividing.
Cheers,
Rod
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Ramon
Not sure when they did fit it but mine is blue and has a 25mm bore so it may have been on the big bore models
Stuart
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Stuart - so you are one of the lucky guys eh :)
I went to those last two Myford open days and looked on with a degree of desire (only a degree you understand ;)) at a very attractive blue 'big bore' version. Beyond justification at that stage - still would be - but I would have loved to have taken one home. Can't complain about my S7 though - now some thirty three years old (£714.00 new including the motor and two Dickson tool holders!) it's still in relatively good condition - very little bed wear considering its use - and still accurate enough for what needs arise. I think I can justifiably say I've had my money's worth :D
Re the dividing, Rod's correct here on the numbers available but for the 120 I have a small pivoting detent which attaches with a single bolt to the gear banjo. Coupled with a gear train whose make up I can't quite recall, it gave, if I remember correctly 360 divs for one div on the index wheel. Though not exactly 'crisp' it gave the degree divs for scribing dials on the Quorn providing a weight was hung off the chuck to take care of the backlash. Now that was a long time ago :old:
The other indexing aid I have is this one made specifically for the Bentley. Mounted directly in the mandrel the detent is mounted via the plate directly onto the banjo. Divs are 28 - 36 - 45 - 54 - 60. No it's not gauge plate - boy do I miss that J&S 1400 grinder ;)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-lojS4V6fabQ/VCHnVWeioNI/AAAAAAAAL7g/IHvduNDK3Ng/s912/DSCF5518.JPG).
This worked well but did require that attachment shown previously to ensure the spindle was rigid.
Back with some more on the engines tomorrow
Regards - Ramon
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Ramon
Thanks for the info on indexing
You say you envy me maybe not so mine was delivered a couple of years before they gave up, but it was made a year before but they were short of one casting for the motor asm.
I should have heard the bells then but I waited as they had given me a very good price for my ml7b in PX
But in the mean time the quality when down I have had a fair amount of trouble with poorly made bits and bobs the AC bearings 7007 series are not cheap for pairs £190 the first pair lasted 1 hour these were replaced by Myford on site they are only 5 miles away since then I have just put a new set in but found the fault this time , it was a small pinch on the OD bore causing a deformation of the race, so yours is a better machine IMO
I did hear that the ones sold as seen at the closing sale were vere poor indeed just slapped together to sell
Anyway enonough of OT from me and I look forwards to more of your builds
Stuart
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That is not what I expected to hear Stuart - just goes to show though :o Jams and Labels spring to mind ::)
The only trouble I have ever had with mine in all this time was swarf finding it's way into the saddle workings which required a complete strip down to cure - an interesting if not slightly worrying experience but it all went back together well enough.
As you say though time now to get back on track - I'm off to finish those housings ;)
Ramon
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Hi Guys - Those front housings have take a bit longer than expected taking several set ups in the process.
They are not quite finished but as tomorrow is a 'need to clean the workshop in order to get ready for sailing day' then sailing on Saturday and Old Warden on Sunday I thought a few pics of progress might be in order.
First up was to make a simple sub-plate to fit the R/T, the housings locating on the boss and registering the centre line by that dowel
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-lJCSXyFeiN4/VCHnEctnCLI/AAAAAAAAL7M/LC_dI1yJAWc/s912/DSCF5512.JPG)
The profile was 'proved' first .......
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-o0z6IV4V_Nc/VCHm_KyUMCI/AAAAAAAAL60/uzKt2iQIG9E/s912/DSCF5497.JPG)
...before removing the waste on the bandsaw and the profile milled to 0.2mm up on major diameter
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-SibuqkAuvME/VCHm_R3WDYI/AAAAAAAAL64/_k6xWdjKY8E/s912/DSCF5503.JPG)
After milling the profile the cavity was taken out. As drawn, and as machined on the first one there is no lower web. As it progressed I felt that a lower web would add a lot more strength so milled the second as such. The tapped hole for the jet was put in at this stage too.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-bqvOzmJacXc/VCHnDSNDliI/AAAAAAAAL7E/CaQqm5-LWl4/s912/DSCF5507.JPG)
A mandrel was turned with the same diameter boss and set up on the Div Head at the requisite angle to mill the taper - this is on the second pass - much smaller radial movements to improve the finish
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-LTNFYQSIWXs/VCMfl7tXHCI/AAAAAAAAL8E/V78Q9zrBGlk/s912/DSCF5521.JPG)
The boss end was parted off the mandrel and used to mill the top of the intake and drill and ream the intake hole through to the jet position - this hole, usually tapered for venturi effect will have a close fitting moveable barrel by which to regulate the air to match the fixed jet size.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-_GcCG9pBDos/VCMfmJP0avI/AAAAAAAAL8I/fkufPSKokQE/s912/DSCF5526.JPG)
And with a bit of 'fettlin' they are beginning to look part of the case
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ewvUIRS8-rU/VCMfmEBPSXI/AAAAAAAAL8M/iFvlhX_TTxg/s912/DSCF5532.JPG)
Next up was to mill the inlet pocket. Done by holding on an expanding mandrel it would have been much better to have done this early on when that front portion was fully cylindrical.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-ABr0MlqQqLQ/VCSAHODntuI/AAAAAAAAL8w/6zm2VNzDMkc/s912/DSCF5537.JPG)
The front of the intake was rough milled at 45 degrees ( the spigot is a filing aid, used here to level the part by eye - I really must get one of those Wixey thingy's ;)) .............
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-ay2XPAFugXw/VCSAHGkLhEI/AAAAAAAAL80/UuB4VxVuEog/s912/DSCF5538.JPG)
......before shaping the leading edge by filing - note the spigot was used as both support and guide
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-VpnTvrlRZhU/VCSAHBXFk7I/AAAAAAAAL84/3JR2Cxr58nI/s912/DSCF5544.JPG)
With that filed to shape the trailing edge was rough milled to 30degree
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-TuG8FDY0JZ4/VCSANPVmuZI/AAAAAAAAL9A/hwPkvi0hhX8/s912/DSCF5550.JPG)
and that too was shaped by filing to a tear drop section. A series of 'flats' first, followed by gradual shaping the ink really keeps tabs on what's done and what's to come off
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-yRedxMkN9Pg/VCSAOmvxQ-I/AAAAAAAAL9M/d446Cpwv7q0/s912/DSCF5557.JPG)#
and this is the current state of play.....
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-K_sgH-7dQWg/VCSAOjMLmEI/AAAAAAAAL9Q/7HLB5QuNwlE/s912/DSCF5562.JPG)
There are a couple of ops left - milling the top of the intake, cutting the inlet hole and screwcutting the front end but as that won't get done until next week I thought you might like to see what's been happening.
I'm very pleased with the outcome so far - providing nothing goes wrong with the screw cutting there should be two functional cases to use next week :)
The forecast is good for the weekend so if all goes well all the engines made so far should get a good run on Sunday - must remember to check the revs out this time ;)
Hope that's still of interest
Regards - Ramon
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Ramon it is always good to see how you go about setting up and shaping these parts. I appreciate you taking the time to show how and why. It gives me more visions of how to go about setting up things. Thanks for sharing
Don
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Beautiful work as always Ramon!! Great pictures as well!!
Bill
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Now we know what it would be like for one of the old masters to show us how they painted the masters. I can just hear Ramon telling Mona Lisa; "no, no ,turn about 15 degrees to your left , or two divisions on the old Myford 3 jaw :lolb: :lolb:. Seriously, beautifully inspiring work Ramon
E
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Wow Ramon, as Bill said, beautiful work as always.
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Another Ramon Sculpture!....NIIIIIIIIICE!....
Dave
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Pure, "poetry"......... :praise2:
David D
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Hi Guys - thanks as usual for your kind words and your continual support - It's nice to know you're looking in :ThumbsUp:
Don - thanks for your appreciation regarding time. Yes it does take time but as I've said before I'm quite happy to do so if someone gets some benefit or enjoyment from it. I know people look by the number of hits but it's nice to know on occasion that someone actual appreciates the effort put in - thanks indeed.
Whiskey - my Sue reckons yo'ra Silver Tongued ole Devil - but she did say that with an enigmatic smile on her face ;D
Well I'm pleased to tell that the case parts all bar one op are completely finished and ready for the internals. They've both come out well without any mishaps (so far - touch wood) so I'm well chuffed.
Here are some pics to bring it up to date..........
First off was to get the front tank ends internally screw cut so these could be used as thread gauges to cut the thread on the shaft housings.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-cAJs1pP3YN4/VCm7hn9pV1I/AAAAAAAAL-k/uGCtgYsM5zY/s912/DSCF5569.JPG)
The tank bodies were a simple taper turning job with a register to fit the shaft housings (no pics) and once done the front ends were assembled, mounted on the expanding mandrel previously used and the secondary taper turned on as well as turning the front tank end angles. This was all done in reverse due to the need to prevent those left hand threads unscrewing
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-i5zKeZ5kMBk/VCm7h4de5gI/AAAAAAAAL-o/D-jkIq5KiWk/s912/DSCF5571.JPG)
That little boss previously used to shape the intake tube was pressed into service again, this time mounted to a small block to allow setting it square in one direction to mill the relief for the air control valve..
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-83QQzzWj8dg/VCm7qWG7ZcI/AAAAAAAAL_A/FemtUuqxMMw/s912/DSCF5581.JPG)
..and then in the other to allow the milling of the air intake. (The brass tube was there to help eliminate burs on the inside of the intake tube).
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-sUG0bEhF1No/VCm7mFOtmXI/AAAAAAAAL-0/7sq9HkiDxHs/s912/DSCF5576.JPG)
Finally the block was set at the requisite angle to drill and tap the fuel filler hole square to the tank face
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-0bvYzAR18JA/VCm7qlPLITI/AAAAAAAAL_E/f5xExCgCRLY/s912/DSCF5585.JPG)
And that was it, all done except milling between those three holes on the backplates. As that is such a useful means of holding the cases that will be left until assembly just in case anything needs a slight skim
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-05_jczbkt3M/VCm7wQgrmFI/AAAAAAAAL_c/32xcKZQPvog/s912/DSCF5595.JPG)
And here they are ready for the next phase - finish the heads and begin the internals
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-LdqjUESNO2c/VCm7wfBZ_xI/AAAAAAAAL_Y/SXlS1PzpJWA/s912/DSCF5591.JPG)
The case bodies themselves finished up at 55 and 56 gms each. I can't remember what we started out with but I fear that's a lot of swarf in the bag :D
As I have 'one or two' other bits of ali that require machining these will be set aside for a few days to deal with that before getting to grips with the steel etc but that won't be long.
On another note some of you may have read on Jo's Stentor Thread that we (Sue Jo Eric and I had a really great time at yesterdays Old Warden Festival of Aeromodelling. Most of the engines got a good run with two of the three Eta's tested performing particularly so but the other one absolutely refused to give anything more than a half hearted burst from an exhaust prime. It had to be the one that's special (to me) - the Elite Mk2 ::). With an arm rapidly wearing out and in the face of some well meaning but totally :censored: advice from two onlookers I gave up and put it away. No sir - It did not need a bigger prop nor a bloody plastic heavier one, nor was the sodding piston scored - (I mean, I ask you ::) ) but I really couldn't understand the problem - it appeared flooded but simply would not clear itself to allow firing :shrug:
Having cleaned all the engines to day I had another go. Absolutely fresh fuel just to be certain this wasn't a fuel issue - still nothing but the same 'restricted' attempt on an exhaust prime but no way was it going to break into a run. Stripping it down revealed the answer - it was totally flooded with after run oil ::) - obviously I had been rather overzealous when I packed them away after the last run. It seemed that what was happening was as it tried to run on a prime it was pumping oil up to 'put the fire out'. Cleaned of all surplus oil it burst into life immediately so I pushed the 'neighbour tolerance level' bit to the limit just to make sure ;) I can assure you ;) this engine is definitely a goer ;D
That was a new one on me certainly never experienced that before so hope that someone will benefit from my rather sore fingers and achy right shoulder :D
Have fun guys it does you the world of good
Regards - Ramon
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Most of the engines got a good run with two of the three Eta's tested performing particularly so but the other one absolutely refused to give anything more than a half hearted burst from an exhaust prime. It had to be the one that's special (to me) - the Elite Mk2 ::). ............ Stripping it down revealed the answer - it was totally flooded with after run oil ::) I can assure you ;) this engine is definitely a goer ;D
Pleased you got it sorted :ThumbsUp: I wonder if Eric's Ladybird is suffering in the same way :LittleDevil:?
Did I mention something about some castings for a Movo or an Osam :mischief:?
Jo
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Looking good Ramon, are you still intending to blast one and polish the other? as they look nice with that satin "brushed" look that the Garryflex gives them.
J
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Did I mention something about some castings for a Movo or an Osam :mischief:?
Jo, my girl - you have a one track mind ;) ;) Here I am hacking something from solid and you ask about castings :o :lolb:
Ah, I do have plans (ideas) for a Movo but it's a much smaller engine - 2cc Spoke with Eric this afternoon he thinks that might have been an Osam that Jan was running. It ran lovely and certainly sounded good with that deep note it had.
Re the 'Bicilldrico' in line twin you mentioned - I took a good look at that myself but running through all the potential ops finally dismissed it due to making that crankshaft out of something unhardened that would stand up to the ball races. Not to mention the accuracy required to get those to fit perfectly - no use if even a tad too loose and even worse if tight - there has to be easier ways to come up with the same format. If you really fancy an inline twin take look at the Taplin Twin 7cc - Eric's bound to have one or know someone that has :D
Jason, thanks for the email - another fine piece on the way eh :ThumbsUp:
I do still intend to bead blast one of them but am having second thoughts re the polishing. Like you I do feel the current finish attractive so will probably stick with it for the other. Although I really liked Les Stones polished version I do think the finish as is would be more in keeping with the original era.
Regarding the last posts comment about weight - I knew I had written down the original weight of the blocks somewhere - it just took some finding as it had been somewhat erased ::). I was surprised to find just how much they weighed - that's 368 gms each block
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-as4uP4-ponQ/UwplGx-laPI/AAAAAAAAItY/bHNBPuP7fJI/s912/DSCF4080.JPG)
......and after removing that waste between the two threads they were down to 55 and 56 gms a piece
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-jMGFbb-HhfY/VCsEiU8uC2I/AAAAAAAAMAA/m4TxVX5rgCA/s912/DSCF5601.JPG)
Regards for now guys
Ramon
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An artist in metal. I like it.
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Jo, my girl - you have a one track mind ;) ;) Here I am hacking something from solid and you ask about castings :o :lolb:
:embarassed: I am beginning to think that I should give up looking for something desirable and start from scratch but :o it seems such hard work.
It is not as if I have other demands on my time, other than work :'(
Jo
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Hi Guys - Just finished all the ali parts today and after the requisite swarf disposal session dealt with the few 'brass' bits. Items left are the cranks (next), rotors, pistons, c'pistons and liners, con-rods (still not sure whether to make these from HE15 or steel) and those awkward shaped compression screws - not long to go now then ;)
Here are some later pics of ops which someone may find useful - somehow managed to delete some pics from the camera when fiddling with it :facepalm:
The cylinder heads were next and the curvature was done as a series of flats using the topslide. The angles were roughly obtained by drawing lines on the drawing at a tangent to the head and measuring with a protractor. I had been loaned a radius turning attachment by good friend John(M) but couldn't get the radius required. The major OD was turned to plus 0.1mm and each end taken to the minor diameter plus 0.1mm for approximately .5 mm inwards to serve as a guide. Once the flats were established the remainder was profiled using a scraper to end up as so............
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-JAe0OYB79jg/VDr5rGxasYI/AAAAAAAAMKM/InW3kNxxMB4/s912/DSCF5744.JPG)
A few minutes with a file and emery and 400/800 wet and dry saw them ready for cutting the fins
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-ukAdMUPRt-E/VDr5rOld_dI/AAAAAAAAMKY/IqG3QRo_HgY/s912/DSCF5749.JPG)
A thinned parting tool which just happened to be near enough the right thickness worked fine and the fins turned without mishap
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-0iQA949pikI/VDr5rEKOq9I/AAAAAAAAMKU/FsnV9Gv6lsI/s912/DSCF5754.JPG)
Next up were the spinners. After drilling and tapping, the insides of these were turned more or less by eye to a fixed depth using a ground freehand round nosed tool about 2mm wide. An accurately dimensioned register was then turned in for about 1.5mm depth. As these parts are cosmetic only no real attempt was made to make these as light as possible, just a reasonable attempt at weight reduction. The tommy bar holes were drilled before rough turning and parting off to do the outer profile
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ij__JhYoAEM/VDr5uDZ4NFI/AAAAAAAAMKg/HUHkWFyfLuI/s912/DSCF5765.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-AQaBHNj4Gso/VDr5vKSBpEI/AAAAAAAAMKo/lhcEAL8fiz4/s912/DSCF5766.JPG)
A small stub of ali was quickly converted into a mandrel - the register turned to fit inside that on the spinner, the spinner pulled up tight on the (loose) 6mm stud similar to machining pistons
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-41QXXXpDT1A/VD15E-MqXPI/AAAAAAAAMLM/juTPcqtkJ6Y/s912/DSCF5770.JPG)
This gives a good accurate location - this is the rough turned blank with no 'by eye' perceptible run out
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-bOOkPT5OJCk/VD15E1_cxkI/AAAAAAAAMLU/iZCSnrUTCFo/s912/DSCF5777.JPG)
Again the shape was evolved using the same technique as on the heads A series of flats.....
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-V1lXTnnZQJQ/VD15FG4mlHI/AAAAAAAAMLQ/6gTLVR6Mrvs/s912/DSCF5785.JPG)
Followed by a 'scrape' ...
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ONPFmzLYlmk/VD15H2D0dqI/AAAAAAAAMLc/jcKdXXR0QrU/s912/DSCF5787.JPG)
And a filed, emery etc finish..
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Eei0qT7fxfI/VD15LOiFK1I/AAAAAAAAMLo/HUk23phYitg/s912/DSCF5792.JPG)
I've just realised there are no pics of doing the prop drivers but they were done exactly the same as the Eta engines.
With the ali parts finished the bearing sleeves were made from cast Phos Bronze. Drilled bored and reamed 8mm the ODs were turned to a good (Loctite) fit in the front housings. Despite this process one of them suffered considerable run out so they were both set in a collet and bored out to 8.5mm. Improvement was considerable so this will be the route taken for all future bearing sleeves.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-cr8nkpX3mhU/VD15LoO5VhI/AAAAAAAAMLs/4OzkzlH32M0/s912/DSCF5800.JPG)
With the prop driver collets made from brass and the small fuel jets from brass 4BA threaded rod this is the current state of progress
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-DWrjCmJXWdI/VD15MZWGyxI/AAAAAAAAML0/7VHaicp-YY8/s912/DSCF5804.JPG)
The En24t is cut for the cranks - I should be able to make a start tomorrow after checking out whats required to enhance my already well depleted wallet at the show on Thursday
As always hope this of interest
Regards - Ramon
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I've never seen the scrape before Ramon. Is it just like a wood turners scraper? Lovely bits there, business as usual with you!
Cheers, Hugh.
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Well Ramon you never cease to amaze me!!! I find I am once again feeling rather inadaquite and quite jealous of the wickedly awesome machining you come up with!!! You continue to inspire me to work harder at finishing and machining from the solid. These engines are again an absolute work of art and i for one (along with everyone else no doubt) appreciate you taking the time to show the way with all the " how to do this or that " photos. keep the updates coming mate there're awesome.
dean
p.s. in-line twins i have made a few of! the best material for the cranks is 4140 steel. you can machine it and run it unhardened. all my engines use either 4140 or p20 steel for the cranks. v series engines all have 1 piece cranks with split main centre bearings and split big end con rods. The in-line twin cranks are made in two pieces with the centre spool having both big end pins, long on the front short on the rear. the front shaft just has the flywheel and the drive hole which the front big end journal locates into. the centre main bearing is split and machined to be a nice gas tight sliding fit into the main case. here's a photo of my first two engines made to this configuration. I am happy to give drawings of the crank set-up to anyone who wants them because it really is a simple task to build these cranks.
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Hugh - the scraper is just made from an old flat file about 8" long by 5/8 wide. It was made in the days when I had the patience to carefully grind the teeth off - To give it a 'surface ground effect' I remember finishing it on a linisher holding it with magnets :o The front is hollow ground on the off hand grinder using the wheel radius to give the 'dish' - the edges are then stoned. Were I to make another the teeth would only be ground back far enough to make that front end viable ;)
Dean - you're amazed :o You know you once said my engine was an 'inspiration' to you - well that might have been so at one time but what you have produced since then knocks my efforts into a cocked hat. Your enthusiasm and output of both design and production since our first contact never fails to impress me - I just don't know where you find the energy. Your work deserves threads of their own though. Drawings, details, pics etc - rather than put the odd thing on here I hope you will be able to find time to show us what you have done to date in far more detail in your own right. Some in depth details of your twins and vees would definitely not go amiss that's for sure :ThumbsUp:
I think I'm right in saying 4140 is the (near?) equivalent of EN24T. It is heat treated and tempered but machinable. All cranks made to date have been made from it and so far - despite minor concern about running drawn phosphor bronze bushes in the big ends has proved ok without any trace of galling on the crank pin.
Your reference to 'P20' is the second I have seen in a few weeks. I've never come across it since the eighties when I used to screw-cut it on a regular basis. I remember it as very tough indeed. Hand ground HSS toolbits and chased by hand to fit a gauge, it was a real nightmare to take those last couple of thou off as the propensity to work harden was a real pain. Ah - Happy days ;)
Regards - Ramon
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They are gorgeous Ramon!
Pete
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Thanks for the kind words and I will definitely be starting some threads on here. to make something clear though i am not sure about the 4140 and your en24t , they may be the same but 4140 while you are correct in saying it is heat treatable you buy it in the semi soft? state and it machines almost like mild steel although it is a bit tougher. plenty of coolant on a carbide tip is OK, but also easy to machine with a good hss, again using flood cooling to keep it all cool and slower cutting speeds. none of my cranks are heat treated in any way, they all run as "machine finished" surfaces. most of the time I finish grind bearing surfaces with a couple of different custom built grinders but only coz its quicker than hand finishing. never was very patient, LOL. While I think the engines i have made posses a certain kind of attraction being muliti's i have yet to come close to the machine from solid works of art you have produced. you seriously do continue to motivate and inspire me with you engines. Although looking at this engine I am sorely tempted to try an in-line twin version.......HMMMM maybe when your done with the drawings etc. I could acquire a copy?????
cheers for now
dean
p.s. your damn right about the p20 work hardening, while machining some v4 liners i lost all the teeth on my slitting saw because i wasn't paying enough attention and the work over heated, never seen a saw go soooooo smooth soooooo very quickly, oh well have to go buy another saw blade, bugger coz there're rather expensive over here!!!!
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Looking good Ramon. I gave up using files as scrapers a long time ago, having one snap at the narrow tang and send a 10" wooden bowl to the other side of the classroom kind of put me off. I now use woodworking scrapers which are not quite so brittle or narrow at the tang.
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You surprise me there Jason as it's long been held that 'the best scrapers are made from old files'. Tangs are usually quite soft so perhaps you had a faulty one. Glad you didn't hurt yourself but I bet it made you sit up a bit ;D - reminds me of (attempting) to turn that ST hand pump on my first face plate set up - the tool dug in as I touched on and instantaneously the pump disappeared over my shoulder to actually impale itself in the door surround :o ( I know I've related that before on here but it does make me cringe a bit whenever I recall it :-[)
Dean - according to my Macready's Handbook 4140 is the equivalent to En19 with a tensile strength slightly lower than En24T
The equivalent to En24T is given as 4340 with a tensile strength of 55-65 tons / sq inch in the T condition. 'T' condition is where it has previously been heat treated and tempered to give a tough but machinable material. It's similar to P20 in that it will rapidly work harden if the tools on those last few thou are anything but very sharp. Like you I use carbide to rough and HSS to finish but no coolant save that applied by brush to the HSS finishing.
I have no grinding facility save a tool post grinder but I am very reluctant to get grinding dust anywhere near the lathe - even completely covered with protective cloths etc it always seems that some gets through.
Regards - Ramon
Edit -
Pete - sorry mate didn't mean to ignore you - good to see you looking in :ThumbsUp:
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Right EN24T is like 4340 prehard. 4340 prehardened is not common at least in small lots. 4140 prehard is very common in the US and is usually 28-32HRC.
Ramon, the parts look great!
Greg
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Thanks Greg - they are getting there slowly ;)
Just been machining the cranks today. Previous En24T cranks have been made from a guaranteed known bar ends from a 'local engineering' supply. All perfectly legitimate but unfortunately that source has now dried up.
The material machined today was bought from a ME supplier as 24T but I'm afraid I have my doubts - still quite tough but nowhere near as tough to machine as the previous stuff. It will be interesting to see if it stands up - but then these engines will never be stressed - if at all. I have no doubt they will fire but getting them to run - consistently - with no needle valve is going to be a whole new challenge.
Ramon
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No needle valve :-\ So what does the little lever on the intake do? Something like regulate the amount of air a bit like a choke thus making it lean or rich?
J
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Hi Jason - yes there's a small inlet air valve which is moved by the lever. I have no idea how that will pan out. I'm thinking it will have to be a friction fit though as there is no means of locking it. I have heard of 'fixed compression' diesels before but never fixed jets. The jet has been made with a .35 mm drill - judging by blowing down it (the only scientific method at my disposal ;)) I think that may be a bit small but I will gradually open it up to find the optimum.
Looks like I going to have to make the props too as that driver is much bigger than any hub on any of the props I have - now that will be a blast from the past :D
Regards - Ramon
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Tug, Looking forward to seeing how you make you props.
I have a couple of new casting sets :naughty: that need 20, 22 and 24" laminated props :whoohoo: :-X
Jo
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I have a couple of new casting sets :naughty: that need 20, 22 and 24" laminated props :whoohoo: :-X
Jo
I guess you'll need an industrial fan for those balmy English evenings?
Hugh.
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Well, after the break in routine yesterday at the show things seemed a bit flat in the workshop today. Having stored away what few goodies were bought it was time to get on with those cranks.
A few pics of the process then .....
The cranks have been made in the (my) favoured method of conserving what En24T I have by using an inner shaft turned from a high tensile cap head bolt. Once that's fitted they are no different from a crank made from solid.
First up was to rough the blanks to 16mm diameter (to fit a collet)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-ivr_JqMOnjE/VEF8aKqWdnI/AAAAAAAAMNU/0agkPRSRncY/s912/DSCF5811.JPG)
The rotor is in front of the web on this engine and driven by an inserted pin. It was easier to spot and drill right through (2.5mm) and reverse to open for 3mm reaming than doing it all from the other side
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-PGSVXA2R-zE/VEF8aDT0pOI/AAAAAAAAMNc/wttP5V6P1Rc/s912/DSCF5815.JPG)
There is no 'easy' way to remove the waste around the pin but I find milling it is better than all those interrupted cuts if doing it on the lathe
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-4x-VovOpFJg/VEF8aMou6tI/AAAAAAAAMNY/ocQcZa_FFwo/s912/DSCF5820.JPG)
The first 'roughing' stage completed
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-XbQpzZ3_itk/VEF8cWf8rDI/AAAAAAAAMNk/5rad1pVszrg/s912/DSCF5825.JPG)
Held in the collet the blank is drilled and reamed 6.35mm and the central shaft parts turned from the (8mm) cap heads previously mentioned to a good shake free slide fit. The heads and the threaded portion of the bolt are discarded, the shaft made from the shank. Some may question why go to this bother but as said this method began as a means to extend the En24T steel available at the time. It's proved successful - none have 'let go' as yet and I'm quite happy to continue.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-dKza9M3wXU0/VEF8gfJK7oI/AAAAAAAAMNw/JZ37tQw1ipY/s912/DSCF5828.JPG)
The end of the 6.35 hole is taper turned at 5 degrees for about 4-5mm depth and the central part turned at 7 degrees. Cleaned thoroughly they are assembled with Loctite 601 and the central part given a good clout to bed the taper in.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-qDhGEhYRmas/VEF8gxZLRsI/AAAAAAAAMN0/0TY5bWCTAi4/s912/DSCF5836.JPG)
Using the fixture previously described on the Eta thread the crank pins are then brought to a round section but left a mil over size
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-jR41QssU9OQ/VEF8hpqDmAI/AAAAAAAAMN8/9X355LtK9jk/s912/DSCF5841.JPG)
The shafts are put back in the collet and a small centre put in to allow turning between centres. With the crankpins now able to be used as a driver the shaft is first roughed to within .5mm on diameter .......
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-1bldncql-lY/VEF8le2_llI/AAAAAAAAMOE/jFbp4LX4UWQ/s912/DSCF5849.JPG)
....then finish turned using HSS tooling and the 6mm thread screw cut - it's much too tough to ruin a die on ::). The tool doesn't look much but the form is precision ground - it's the top face that gets attacked by hand ;)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-6MCcoujGoSA/VEF8mYMoSFI/AAAAAAAAMOQ/H_AhOlMDj-Q/s912/DSCF5850.JPG)
Finally it's returned to the fixture to have the pin finish turned and the web faced to thickness. The shafts and pins are turned to within .03-4mm and reduced by filing with a very fine file then emery and 800 grit wet and dry used with paraffin as lubricant.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Mnvnyw5zG2g/VEF8m5kMvCI/AAAAAAAAMOU/gud_6lPxfBw/s912/DSCF5855.JPG)
There's just the web scalloping to do to finish them off. (No nothing's been cleaned as yet - that way there's no temptation to keep screwing things together :ShakeHead:)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-L4EX3xPmxXU/VEF8qEw6VhI/AAAAAAAAMOk/gIGY3MKKWp8/s912/DSCF5863.JPG)
The actual method of process has varied a bit since first starting to make these cranks. At first the shafts were counter-bored and a 'head' left on the centre part but this taper method not only ensures nothing will ever pull out but also gives a very neat join line. Though it may seem a bit pointless to do the crank-pins in two set ups rather than the one (as originally done) it's actually better with two as the pin does not have to be protected in the drive slot for a start and more importantly the pin is also finished in alignment to the finished shaft itself rather than the roughed out section if done in a 'one-r'
Well that's another bit done - liners next week and possibly the pistons/C-pistons. We have a two day local model engineering show to attend next weekend - the first for many a year in the home town - so getting ready for that will need a bit of time.
I hope no one will object to the repetition - the fact that it's a repeat of the Eta build that is - someone may find it useful however
Regards - Ramon
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Looks like I going to have to make the props too as that driver is much bigger than any hub on any of the props I have - now that will be a blast from the past :D
What size prop do you need? I still have some 20x8s and 20x10s that I used to run on Tartan Twins, and some of them were sized for a 6-bolt prop hub rather than a conventional driver & propnut - the hubs on these are pretty vast.
Actually, thinking about it - I also have a book on propeller theory (published in the mid 1920s) which has an appendix a copy of the Air Ministry Standard for prop manufacture (which details everything from selection and seasoning of planks, lofting the laminations, preparing and bonding them, carving the shapes, covering and sheathing etc etc. So if you wanted to do props that are really "in character" you could make them in the finest "ministry approved" style.
:old:
Of course you'll need to find some fish glue...
AS
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Just catching up Ramon and those cranks are first rate so are the cylinders. Enjoying the progress very educational.
Don
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Here's another crank turned out like it was just an afternoon stroll in the park, you guys make it look too easy, but, that's why I'm here. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :cheers:Ramon
E
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Hi Guy's - it looks like I escaped Jo's cold but Sue has brought something home from work that's laid her low - no sailing today then so attendance duties over where else to be :D
Allen - thanks for the offer of the props but given these are only 5cc they would be a bit on the large size. I know I could cut them down and reshape them but the pitch would still be too coarse. It's no problem to make a couple - a 13 x 5 and 12 x 5 will be about right I would think. I have some nice yellow pine and also some parana which shouldn't be too tough to carve. I don't think I'll laminate them - that's perhaps a bit too fancy but, should I need it, I do actually have some fish glue ;)
Glad you're looking in Don - thanks for the kind words. If you are anything like myself you will be having a short 'flat period' after completing your gorgeous Benson. Looking forwards to your next project when ever that is.
Talking of words - Whiskey, Sues right you are a 'silver tongued ole devil' - your phraseology always does exude a certain air of charm ;D
Just thought you'd like to see one more pic - finished the shafts right off this morning by milling the side relief in the webs and after a thorough cleaning of the bore Loctited the bearing sleeves in place.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-CGMSo4cf2C0/VEJSk6jhM8I/AAAAAAAAMPA/RLYDO5vOFA4/s912/DSCF5869.JPG)
The liners are basically a straight tube but I think I have to make a new lap - the bores are only 16mm or so - found a nice piece of leaded steel so that's this afternoon taken care of
Regards - Ramon
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They are comming together well Ramon. Looking forward to seeing you make the props, bit surprised you use such a soft hardwood as parana pine or is that because its easier on the fingers :-\ Don't use more than you have to as its almost inpossible to get hold of now, the last job (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Fitted%20Furniture/PICT0368.jpg) I had to use it for I ended up cutting my own bandsawn veneers from some salvaged boards and veneering 4 sides of a core to make up the sections I needed.
J
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Hi Jason , yes I know ::) When I was working on the steam launch last year I managed to find some scraps left at a local timber merchant. The major part of the parana used had been bought years ago when it was dirt cheap - not any more :o - an arm and a leg wasn't in it
I certainly have enough to spare for a couple of props though also have this very old yellow pine from a drawing board. This has a lovely straight grain which could prove decorative but I do like the grain of parana. In this instance I don't think it needs to be very hard - it's not as if they will be working for a living and will only run for the odd show here and there - if they run at all of course :-\ I hadn't thought about showing it on here - more 'woodwork' - but if it's of interest then I can at least show how I've butchered a piece of wood - it's been quite a while since I last carved a prop
Very nice workmanship there too BTW, you are as skilled in wood as you are in metal :ThumbsUp:
Just finished the IDs and one OD of the liners which just slid in the case with the fit aimed for ;D - bet the second doesn't go so well though ::) Tired now though - telly night I guess :o
Regards - Ramon
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but if it's of interest then I can at least show how I've butchered a piece of wood - it's been quite a while since I last carved a prop
Yes please ;D I seem to have four to make. One for each of the Anzanis, and if I am a good girl there is an off chance that I might need one for an Aeronca and a Gypsy :embarassed:
I have found some pictures of the originals, they each seem to offer new challenges, so I am looking forward to any guidance I can get on making props :cheers:
Jo
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Okay, will do then but it will be a few days as yet - I'd like to get the engines finished completely first ;)
Doesn't matter what shape prop blade you want to end up with - the principle is the same - more later then
Ramon
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Hi Guys Hope you're not getting bored with this :o
Here's a quick update on progress as of tonight - the bits left to do are diminishing rapidly.
Liners came out of a piece of very free cutting leaded steel.
As usual the bores were finished before the ODs to keep the wall thickness as much as possible to prevent chuck jaw distortion. Once done - to measurement using tele gauges - no plug gauge, the ODs were quickly roughed from each end to 1.0mm over size. One end (which will be the lower) was faced at the same time as doing the bores. The pic is of roughing the OD - not facing the other, top, end.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-73RvDzuRK08/VEQVD-o8ZLI/AAAAAAAAMPo/gxj9Sp_ql9k/s912/DSCF5880.JPG)
A quick skim over a previously used expanding mandrel
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-56SM_cwSIek/VEQVD422IpI/AAAAAAAAMPc/gafeUKJMwDo/s912/DSCF5885.JPG)
And the ODs could be brought to finished size and the other end faced square to the bore
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-nzT555QigPk/VEQVEHs_OfI/AAAAAAAAMPk/vXbYJR9UUpU/s912/DSCF5883.JPG)
The transfer passages were easily put in to a fixed stop and the porting carried out by plunging - 3mm followed by 4mm to finish
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-b742ZKhnQQU/VEQVGhiwtiI/AAAAAAAAMPw/dx7o4p5Wjn4/s912/DSCF5892.JPG)
The passages proved a bit narrow as initially drawn so were widened using a ball ended cutter
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-R11am6pHAJM/VEQVJn5bOZI/AAAAAAAAMP4/I2NyGQIeFF0/s912/DSCF5897.JPG)
Finished ready for lapping ....
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-KaMVoLZGcaQ/VEQVQwehtqI/AAAAAAAAMQg/qidpOl0mdwg/s912/DSCF5929.JPG)
...... and a trial fit to check the transfer passages. They are not particularly large but there is not a lot of material to play with however it's felt they will be more than adequate for the kind of performance anticipated.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-jlQfdKJVZI0/VEQVKs4vxII/AAAAAAAAMQA/JhAOUf-LXw8/s912/DSCF5909.JPG)
The lapping will come last after the pistons are made and as the 'cast' will get left to last too the comp screws seemed like a good idea to get out of the way.
Very different to accepted 'tommy bar in a hole' practice these require a shaped blade as the lever. The profile was copied onto a piece of card and cut out then transferred to the material - steel for the bead version and a brass one for a bit of bling.
The levers were silver soldered into bosses first
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Jo17CNLCOjU/VEQVL4u6oJI/AAAAAAAAMQI/NwXLvf78msA/s912/DSCF5912.JPG)
Then the boss blind bored before transferring to the rotary table to mill the outer diameter and the sides of the blade.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-hruLitnWuJg/VEQVPJFFmhI/AAAAAAAAMQQ/z7GVKCxv0qU/s912/DSCF5915.JPG)
This may look a bit precarious and indeed it was ::) Though the steel one was successfully machined the brass one was tweaked well out of shape as the cutter passed the outer edge :o Despite being rather bent and defaced a couple of taps with a pair of small hammers soon had it back in line but, by the time the burrs were filed out, the shape had changed a mite ::) Though it looks okay I'll wait until its in the cylinder head to see how it looks before deciding whether to make another. The 9/32 x 32 threaded parts will be bonded in and pinned later.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-oq3UgPEc88A/VEQVQH3eXaI/AAAAAAAAMQY/pWQyvzhLrnI/s912/DSCF5919.JPG)
Well - that's a bit more progress - it's a trip to the dentist and the monthly shopping tomorrow which will curtail things for a while :-\
Regards - Ramon
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Ramon I truely enjoy your process of explaining each step of your built. I should do as well. I love the bling because it's in my nature to bling things up as well. Great update truely inspiring. Enjoy your trip to the dentist.
Don
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Hi Don, that's good to hear and I'm pleased you are enjoying it. Things have been a bit quiet of late but I see lots are still looking so I guess that's reward enough - mind you this has dragged on a bit what with taking out the time to rebuild the boiler and that 'plastic distraction' ::)
It's near at a close though - not much left to make now...
The last couple of days has been spent on some of the 'incidentals' - finishing off those Comp-Screws for a start. Having got the threaded portions made and fitted and screwed them in place it wasn't the brass one that looked too small but the steel one that turned out a mite too large. A bit of reworking of the shape and both are deemed okay.
The inlet 'regulators' were turned from brass and steel respectively - these had a .8mm slot run up the back and were expanded slightly using a tapered mandrel (dot punch ;)) in the tailstock. This has given a nice tight fit but allowing smooth rotary motion.
The tank filler parts were also got out of the way
The rotors were made tonight. In the past these have been turned on the end of a block of Tufnol, the profile and any lightening cavities milled in then the rotor itself parted off. I tried something different this time, in parting off two discs a mil thicker than the thickness required. These were then faced and bored to a running fit on the bearing before reversing and facing to finished thickness.
A stub of ali had a stepped washer turned and parted off before turning a register for the rotor and drilling and tapping. With the chuck on the rotary table the inlet cavity was quickly milled.
First off was the drive pin location - the rotor reference point
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-U-ifuxbW-lc/VEbA4EtQkfI/AAAAAAAAMRM/3RuCFtbGQVk/s912/DSCF5934.JPG)
My intent was such (or was it that glass of Spanish :D) that the pics got overlooked so this is the second one ready to go
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-9YH-SEnrEuk/VEbA4FvS6DI/AAAAAAAAMRU/33SnP0NPToU/s912/DSCF5944.JPG)
After the drive pin hole the leading and trailing edges of the timing 'pocket' are accurately milled to ensure the timing is as called for
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-bvX6PrXYXqs/VEbA4bV1oYI/AAAAAAAAMRQ/WLHJxlaKwbY/s912/DSCF5952.JPG)
Then remove the waste by rotary milling taking care not to run into the previous milled edges.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-90t31jio5MM/VEbA6smx6_I/AAAAAAAAMRc/_8imjH1E74A/s912/DSCF5953.JPG)
The result of a couple of good sessions - doesn't look much for all that time but there's quite a bit of happy 'fiddling' in there :)(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-3UNb63FlpaY/VEbA-aRydZI/AAAAAAAAMRk/107-rBHwHnc/s912/DSCF5961.JPG)
And finally, though not completely 'complete', the first tentative assembly of one of the bottom ends was tackled
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-CaFPCO0E9lU/VEbA_KTAV5I/AAAAAAAAMRw/s6UzKyRCGTE/s912/DSCF5964.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-9QM04y8ASlc/VEbA_v8HHkI/AAAAAAAAMR0/fxR1obdPB78/s912/DSCF5966.JPG)
Not complete? Well I just ran out of time to make and fit the rotor drive pins - "Maybe tomorrow Jack"
Well the trip to the dentist proved anti-climatic as I didn't need any fillings and most gratefully I didn't require the water torture cleaning pick. The next appointment won't be till April - wonder what will transpire in that time
Sleep tight I know I will tonight ;)
Ramon
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Hi Ramon,
By inlet regulators do you mean the "bits" top right in the 5th picture? I'm guessing the .8mm slot is to allow the "barrel" to spread under the influence of the dot punch. Have I got that right?
Cracking work as ever. Maybe one day I'll get in the same ball park, but I've a long way to go! Many thanks for the inspiration.
John
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You are racing a head of me Tug with this engine. The Titan has not been touched since the weekend :wallbang: still a case of keeping to little simple things made of dog ends rather then risk a muck up :(
Seeing this come together is giving me a few more clues for my first real Diesel, even if it is going to be made of grotty old castings, you will be pleased to know that my CM 1.4 is a bar stock Diesel ;)
Jo
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Hi John, nice to see you looking in - never fear, you're doing just fine on that Georgina. What you see took a long time to develop - it didn't start out like this I assure you ;)
Yes the 'inlet regulators' are those top right. Possibly an incorrect description but I guess it conveys their function. As said before there is no needle valve to regulate the fuel so the mixture is set by the variable air inlet - I have my doubts whether this will function well as a venturi but it is as the original. I have no idea of what the original jet looked like however so have made this to just break into the passage way. Looking at it last night I have a feeling this may have to be made longer to sit deeper inside the lower passage to create the suction required. I also have a feeling that a degree of experimentation may be required to get this design to run ;)
Jo - Now what's this talk of "grotty old castings' - do I sense some sticky ali? If so I'd be doing away with all use of carbides (and especially for the screw-cutting) and using HSS for all machining along with paraffin as a lube.
If it is the stuff that constantly cruds up and loads on the tool then nice sharp tools with reasonable rake angles(but not too excessive) and slower speeds/feeds along with the lube is about the best remedy though I'd wholeheartedly agree it's not the best stuff to machine
Don't be put off, just slow everything down and take your time - this is definitely not a race ;)
Hope things are better for you work wise
Regards Ramon
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John - Just realised I din't answer your question fully ::)
Yes the slot was put in so that it could be given a degree of spring to hold it in place but allow rotary movement. I felt this was the better option rather than a 'pin in a groove' type retainer. The intake was reamed 6.35 and the tube made a nice slide fit before slitting. It was then given a slight tweak with said dot punch to give a nice firm fit that hopefully will resist any vibratory influence to self release
itself.
Regards - Ramon
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Ramon
Back in the days of yor when I played with these ether fuelled devices if my memory servers be well with the fixed comp ones we had to alter the fuel to get them to run as we needed but for the life of me I cannot remember what we did I seem to think it was the lube oil that was changed.
Maybe you can get my brain cell to rest by giving me the answer
BTW those two beauties are coming along just fine very nice work and build log
Stuart
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Do I have this right? The induction path comes in through the (throttled) intake past a fixed fuel jet to a 90degree bend where it meets the disk valve, and from there into the lower crancase through the scallops either side of the crank pin?
If so I'm rather surprised any mixture actually gets to the transfer ports at all! :naughty:
Was there a point to this layout?
Don't get me wrong, your work, skill and craftsmanship is just awesome and the result is a work of art - a thing of beauty that I could stare at and appreciate for hours, but I'm puzzled by what was in the designer's mind at the time...
AS
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Hi Stuart, nice to see you here :)
I have often wondered just how you 'control' a fixed compression diesel - after all knowing what variation there can be with a conventional contra piston how does one know what combustion gap to set :noidea:.
Running settings always depend on the load so I would hazard a guess that it would be the ether content that would probably need to be varied. Hence possibly your remembering the oil content being changed to make due allowance?
Allen - you are right on the button ;)
This is per the original design - if you haven't read this thread from the beginning then you have probably missed this cutaway
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-ZlNBsP6wYOE/UwPGNVL9LEI/AAAAAAAAIqc/WIGeK-xwy4A/s800/P5070004.JPG)
It shows the layout clearly but I agree it doesn't come across as a particularly good induction system. You have to bear in mind though this was designed in early days as far as 'diesels' were concerned so lots of differing ideas can be uncovered - the front rotor valve is one for a start - before I received the cut away I was working under the impression that this was going to be a conventional front rotary induction through the crankshaft. I have no idea of any advantage of this layout - it's certainly a first for me.
The area for fuel inlet into the case appears quite restricted compared to the more conventional rear rotor, the crank web acting as a shield to some degree. Les Stone however got his to work and I assume, more to the lack of information to the contrary, that the originals were successful running engines too.
Hopefully these two will run as well but I don't have quite the confidence as with previous builds. I can't wait to fill those tanks to find out though ;D.
Thanks for your comments
Regards - Ramon
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Ramon
Brain cell was still in find it mode so I invoked my Google fu to find this
http://modelenginenews.org/faq/fc_diesel_ops.html
Looks like is was the oil or shims
Stuart
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Hi Stuart - thanks for that :ThumbsUp: What an eye opener. Adrian Duncan at his very best to say the least.
Whilst I envisaged that the ether content would possibly be varied I would never have considered doing away with the paraffin (kersoene) content entirely and using oil and ether alone. The manner in which the oil changes the ignition is well described - I now have a whole new respect for fixed comp diesels as I had only ever considered them (and their potential difficulties) from a variable comp perspective. His comment that it's only 'fixed' while running is so obvious when you consider it - as he says once a conventional set up is optimised for the load it's basically fixed anyway. There is no doubt that whilst a fair degree of testing would be required to find that optimum setting/fuel it does never the less sound a far more attractive proposition than previously thought. Hmmm - maybe that Vivell is a possible candidate after all ;)
Though not specifically so but with a possible relevance I read something recently (but can't recall where ::)) about the American 2cc 'DEEZIL'.
Apparently renowned for its non starting/working characteristics in it's day it has been much maligned over the years. However, if I recall correctly, some original instructions had been recently uncovered and the recommended fuel was just mineral oil and ether.
Having made some up the original engine apparently fired and ran - how well I'm not sure.
I have an original DEEZIL here (not mine) to scale up at some stage - I'd like to discover that article/posting again so if anyone knows of it I'd appreciate a 'link'
Thanks again - I'm off now to do the con-rods ;)
Regards - Ramon
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Steve Hucks posted abut the Deesil/Deezil a couple of years ago here
http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php?topic=1045.0
I don't know how it turned out in the end.
Hugh.
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Thanks Hugh - I did follow it at the time and see I was the last but one poster. I guess Steve has moved on to other matters since then.
Having enjoyed reading Adrian Duncans account of running fixed compression engines earlier I just googled 'Deezil' - he has an excellent write up (what else) on the Deezil and history on the MEN site. I don't recall viewing it before but there, well down in the story is a copy of the instruction sheet. That clearly calls for 60% oil and 40% ether which confirms what I might have read elsewhere.
MEN's pages don't print that well which is a shame as what a 'book' one could create from Adrian's writings - there'd be some bedtime reading there eh?
Ramon
PS Despite hoping to get on to the con-rods I had overlooked the fact that I have to get ready for the exhibition at the weekend -Tomorrow's taken up early on with a yachting members funeral so it's been a 'pull about' morning.
Should anyone not be aware in the UK Anglian region, Halesworth MES are staging a two day model exhibition this weekend at the Pakefield High School, South Lowestoft. Opens 10 to 5 on Sat and 10 to 4 on Sunday. Google 'Lowestoft Model Exhibition'
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The throttle here is acting as a choke because the jet is downstream. it should be quiet easy to find a running setting one the jet size is sorted. However, you might find that if it needs to be closed down the power will be low. A larger jet should allow a larger opening of the throttle (choke) and more power. Between throttle setting, jet size, and fuel mixture a running setting should be found.......eventually.
Now, don't burn me at the stake, but I would fake it and make the throttle arm work an adjustable jet via a slit in the barrel, while leaving the intake wide open. (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-fc/hiding.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)
I might actually use the convoluted intake valve in a project I have in mind. I just have to see it if will provide enough area.
Greg
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Hi Greg - Thanks for your interest in this and your comments :ThumbsUp:
Right from the outset I have thought that once finally ready to run this could prove to be a bit of a trial. I'm quite confident that it will fire but as you say it will take a degree of experimentation to find the right kind of setting/jet size for prop used. I initially run most of the engines on 12 x 5 commercial wooden props so this will be the same though I may drop the pitch to 4" when making them. Relative to previous engines the intake area appears to be quite small though the through passage is basically 5mm diameter. I have a feeling though that this will be more restrictive to it's potential output rather than the other way.
It has never been more than a model engineering project - ie it's never going to be fitted to anything to actually have to work as a propulsion source - but obviously I want it to run to be able to demonstrate it on odd occasions. I was attracted to make it purely for aesthetic reasons - I didn't even consider the fact that it may prove to be a poor runner - as long as it runs at all I'll be happy. (If it's a bugger to start though I shan't be quite so philosphical ::))
At this stage I'm very reluctant to change it's original design - I have considered a variable jet but only in as much to set it firm once a setting is established but would rather try to get it to work in it's original guise first.
I've thoroughly enjoyed every minute in making this design so far - certainly different from those done to date. It's nearly at an end though with only a few parts left to make but little done today and that's unlikely to change now until next week .
Thanks again - appreciated :ThumbsUp:
Ramon
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I hear you. I'm sure it will run as is. If you wanted something to fly regularly, it might be a different story.
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Hi guy's having finally recovered from the weekends exertions at the model show and getting everything cleaned down and put away once again - that's it until Guildford - it was time to get back onto those last few parts'
Unlike the Eta's the con rods were milled - material is Alumec 89 which is a tough aircraft grade and has stood up well in the past.
First up was to mill to block size plus 1mm all round then drill and ream both holes before removing the waste on each face.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-q5uY5cQZwrY/VFFh2QyCwgI/AAAAAAAAMZM/kqJy0_jw95I/s912/DSCF5978.JPG)
The taper coincided with the difference in diameters so setting to mill the sides was straightforward using a couple of dowels
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/--L5mnupr43s/VFFh2Q4BxII/AAAAAAAAMZQ/ZbVZ0-3Yz4Q/s912/DSCF5983.JPG)
A couple of pins were turned up to match the relevant holes and the ends rotary milled
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-8dtSaYAviuI/VFFh2t9ryvI/AAAAAAAAMZU/HoHaD00nnzs/s912/DSCF6063.JPG)
Then set on small expanding mandrels the waste was removed around the ends
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-fJNomIaiyV8/VFFh6UHOdqI/AAAAAAAAMZc/Q9CC3pl2ZcQ/s912/DSCF6067.JPG)
A bit of fettling on the sides with needle files, emery and scotchbrite..
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-MbJF3vWOink/VFFh8F1O6UI/AAAAAAAAMZo/dcWmPx2Q_yE/s912/DSCF6072.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-kEE5t7o1k5I/VFFh8ajklGI/AAAAAAAAMZs/qXN5Cs1FbdU/s912/DSCF6077.JPG)
......saw them ready to fit the phos bronze big end bearings.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-WcnllF7IKWM/VFFh9oZicpI/AAAAAAAAMZ0/I2juFodeuAo/s912/DSCF6084.JPG)
The pistons were made today - twice ::) the undercut above the bosses was made to long - it was only after setting up to drill the second ones that I realised I'd drilled the holes in the wrong place first time too :facepalm2:
All being well once a new lap is made tomorrow that final op can get underway - all that's left to make are the wrist pins and pads ;D.
Once all the parts are done I've decided to assemble one and see what has to be done to get it running then bring the second one to it if required. Once established they can then be stripped, bead blasted/polished and the anodising done.
Over the course of posting I have often made reference to the Bentley engine. This has sat dormant for far to long - it was started in 1992 :o. This past year two working examples have been admired at Guildford and Old Warden and at this last weekend's show another in an advanced stage of build. All of this, whilst not exactly having the effect of 'drop every thing and get on' has definitely made me aware that I need to do something about it sooner rather than later. It would be an awful waste of time not to see this through.
Those parts made were displayed at the weekend and one or two storage 'spottings' were found
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-iC5R4CJSSS0/VFFgc_8j0HI/AAAAAAAAMYs/XSVpCOmzEFk/s912/DSCF6036.JPG)
Giving everything a real good clean before putting it away the temptation to see how it would go together was too much to resist
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/--o4kJOM4CWQ/VFFgpkP37AI/AAAAAAAAMY0/oC8FuOv4FFk/s912/DSCF6060.JPG)
If I can keep this in mind maybe it'll creep to the top of the pile a'fore too long ;)
Regards - Ramon
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Ramon I do enjoy seeing you shape metal and that Bentley is one engine begging to be complete. That is a beauty :stickpoke:
Don
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Yes that Bentley :Love: needs finishing Tug, so so close.
In the mean time the piston rod is a bit more at my current level of engineering skills ;D.
Jo
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I've got the book of the Bentley. I'm going to need to work on my accuracy and finishing! (Never going to happen I suspect)
Lovely work Tug.
Rod
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Yes that Bentley :Love: needs finishing Tug, so so close.
Oh I wish Jo - yes there is a lot of work done but there's still an awesome amount to do - most of the one offs are done but there's a big list of 'nines' and 'eighteens' outstanding ::)
Though I'm not sure exactly when, I am positive that work will resume as soon as practicable ;) the next stage hinges around making the rings - once they are done I have everything to begin the initial assembly.
First though there's the Ato's and a certain Steam Launch to get finished :)
Regards - Ramon
Rod it's a good book to have but there are so many errors to be wary of. Magazine articles are the same - indeed if I recall, so is the 'Errata' published later :o
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Ramon,
I have read & studied each of your posts. Very clever & thoughtful techniques that can be used on any manual type machine. "Toolmakers", with the ability to do this are a rare breed! Keep up the dedicated & outstanding work! :praise2:
Jim Allen
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Jim - that's quite a thing to say coming from someone with such obvious skills and expertise as yourself - truly, much appreciated.
Not quite such a long day today as I had to go out tonight.
A new lap was made to the usual (for me) design using a piece of 10swg copper around a 12.7mm mandrel.
I know many of you have seen this before but just to recap, mainly for the time it took to make ...
With the copper annealed and wrapped around the mandrel it was silver soldered along its leading edge then set up for turning
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-3SPrVqiRjDE/VFK11I2NqeI/AAAAAAAAMb0/_KQGBYx0_8E/s912/DSCF6085.JPG)
Initial cuts were done with a sharp pointed tool with a fair degree of rake
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-OgYqqMDXVs4/VFK11qT-tNI/AAAAAAAAMb8/G8wavG37HRI/s912/DSCF6091.JPG)
Then the last 0.2 mm finished off with a more round nose tool to improve the finish
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ambLEr0Qxpw/VFK11qEo9bI/AAAAAAAAMcA/vggvMY8oMMU/s912/DSCF6094.JPG)
It took just over an hour to make from cutting the material to ready for use and is another addition to the steadily growing collection.
I didn't take any pics of the lapping itself as there are plenty elsewhere. Using 320 first then 600 grit Silicon Carbide powder the lapping itself did not take very long at all . The piston was honed with an external hone then lapped to the liner with a micro amount of 1000 grit using the usual tee-bar driver. Due to that length of piston that took much longer but a good result was achieved - quite tight at the top of the stroke it should soon bed in to a nice fit once assembled.
I did manage to turn and heat treat the wrist pins too before time got the better and I had to stop. Tomorrow then will see the pads turned to finish the pins off and finally that first assembly can take place :).
Regards - Ramon
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:o WOW Ramon you never cease too amaze me :NotWorthy: Truly fantastic quality of workmanship mate well done. :praise2: :praise2:
Dean
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The Bentley looks amazing :praise2: :praise2: but as you say there are a lot of bits ::)
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Hi Guys - gad this is so slow tonight ::)
....... Tomorrow then will see the pads turned to finish the pins off and finally that first assembly can take place :).
Well, despite best laid plans, mice and men spring to mind as not a lot of progress today. I had overlooked ::) a family get together to intern Sues mothers ashes so most of the day has been spent attending that and a very enjoyable family gathering after. Though I did get the wrist pins finished and the pistons on the con-rods earlier on there was no time for 'owt else. With sailing tomorrow too it will be another day or so before I can start putting it together.
Hang on in there - back soon ;)
Ramon
PS
Guys - I've just been emailed an image of a lovely Galloway Non Dead Centre Engine built to half scale size. Made by my good friend Chris - aka 'ModelSteam' it's truly a little gem. Unfortunately he is a self confessed, hopelessly inveterate lurker ::) so I'm leaving it to you to twist his arm to post something about it so you can see this little masterpiece yourselves ;) - Go on give 'im a nudge
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Guys - I've just been emailed an image of a lovely Galloway Non Dead Centre Engine built to half scale size. Made by my good friend Chris - aka 'ModelSteam' it's truly a little gem. Unfortunately he is a self confessed, hopelessly inveterate lurker ::) so I'm leaving it to you to twist his arm to post something about it so you can see this little masterpiece yourselves ;) - Go on give 'im a nudge
OK Cris get on with it, Ramon has got this old Coonass's curiosity up. Come out, come out were every you are. We want to see this gem. :stickpoke:
Don
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Come on Chris, just because you have got a small one you should not be shy about showing it :embarassed:
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OH yea....if Ramon say's it's good.....it's good!
Don't be shy Chris....
Dave
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Galloway's Non Dead Centre Engine ?
I love this engine.
So Chris also from my side, I would be happy to see another build of this engine.
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I've seen it too and it's a peach!
Chris is on his hols though so I think you will have to sit tight for a bit.
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Some thing tells me I'll be seeing the photos before you guys.
Vince
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Looks like that was a lost cause then eh guys ?
To make up for it here's something else ;)
Had a good clean of the parts ready to put one together - laid out like this though there does not look much for the time put in ::)
This is the total for the two
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-BFGHhpV-81Q/VFaMstFcvpI/AAAAAAAAMcw/i1m7srqeVaU/s912/DSCF6112.JPG)
and a closer look at the bits for one - the screw in the case is to prevent the liner rotating as the head is screwed up
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-4ByiPo84YYk/VFaMtFqhX9I/AAAAAAAAMc4/k98drkHCN7E/s912/DSCF6118.JPG)
and finally it's all together - well one of 'em at least. The only 'fettling' was a whisker off the con-rod big end face and some relieving of the case to give the con-rod some clearance.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-lKBiqxD9CSA/VFaMtDcrg_I/AAAAAAAAMc0/HwU2IJxYjOk/s912/DSCF6122.JPG)
There's still some work to do on the backplates in milling away between the mount holes but as this is a temporary assembly on one engine only to see if it will run that will come later - never know, I may have to use that backplate to hold it again for something.
As you can see I found a prop that just about fills the driver so am happy to use that for a test but I will make a couple of props later. I could not resist the temptation ;) and gave the exhaust and intake a squirt of fuel. Flicked it over a few times winding the comp screw in about 3/4 turn and it fired and ran the prime out in my hand. No, I'm afraid I did not have the nerve to fill the tank ;D - that will come tomorrow after a mount has been made to bolt it too.
Once some kind of parameter has been found for the jet it will get stripped down and the other engine brought to the same standard. Then it's bead blasting/polishing and anodising before the final assembly.
Hope this 'sneak preview' was worth the wait ;) I have to say I'm well pleased with the result - can't wait to try it 'for real' tomorrow :)
Regards - Ramon
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Wow Tug! That is very very Sexy :Love:.
I hope she runs and sounds as good as she looks :cheers:.
Jo
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Looking good Sir, fingers crossed for tomorrow.
J
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Terrific. Can't wait to see the video!
Cheers,
Rod
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Gorgeous, Ramon! :o
Waiting, with breath bated...... ;)
David D
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That really is a beauty! Amazing workmanship.
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Top job Ramon - looks so crisp!
Simon.
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Wow!
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just Elegant :praise2: :praise2:
Pete
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That looks awesome Ramon!.....Vid please!....volume cranked! 8)
Dave
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Amazing work Ramon.
Dave
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Hi Ramon, you have created a real beauty there. Good luck for the first run.
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That beauty there Ramon
Makes my old Mills .75 look ugly
Stuart
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Simply beautiful :) It's a great pleasure to witness a craftsman at work . Thanks
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I can't add to what has been said, but I can still convey my appreciation for this latest achievement. Best of luck with the first run. Hugh.
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Ramon, you are an absolute master craftsman with metal :NotWorthy: :NotWorthy: :praise2: :praise2:
That engine is simply 'STUNNING'
I have little doubt that it's first run will be a great success.
And as for that BR2... oh my god!!!... and you are worried about a little bulge on the side of a Dooling :thinking: :facepalm:
Very best regards.
Sandy. :cheers:
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Morning 'Guys' - good to hear from you and see you're all still following - thanks for all those kind words of support.
Well - I have a grin from ear to ear ;D
Despite my foreboding that this would be difficult to obtain a run after just a few low rpm bursts and a tweak of the compression it was off - it ran the bloody tank out would you believe ;D
No video at this stage - this was just a test run - but Sue took the obligatory pics for you - here are three of 'em.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Bz5T_dw0qkg/VFdX5aRiXcI/AAAAAAAAMdQ/ayWE6QlzUAs/s912/DSCF6123.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Pwr4dh1LRc0/VFdX6FfXCqI/AAAAAAAAMdU/uI2Ul13gV-o/s912/DSCF6125.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-lz10ZMlXwzs/VFdYBLvquyI/AAAAAAAAMd4/a93SNSGOsUg/s912/DSCF6129.JPG)
There's a couple of things to attend too - you may note that despite trying to make allowance for it the threads have tightened 'over centre'. I can deal with that on the backplate by a couple of locking screws but I think it will have to be Loctite 'thread locker' on the front end on final assembly. The jet seems okay at #80 - 0.34mm, so will leave as is.
Well it's a good clean down now before finishing them off proper so it's not over quite as yet - thanks again, as always much appreciated.
The 'Fat Lady' will make her appearance as soon as possible ;)
Regards - Ramon
Edit - Sandy just seen your post - thanks too. I haven't thought too much about the Dooling lately :-\ Hmmm!
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:whoohoo: :whoohoo:
:thinking: Your engine mount: I have been thinking of making a bulkhead mounting plate for the Titan, I was opting against a soild sheet thinking it might prevent air flow but I see you have used one :noidea:
Looking forward to the Vid: please don't make us wait too long :stickpoke:
Jo
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As long as the head is in an open airflow you shouldn't have a problem Jo. In use the cases are usually fully cowled anyway. This is a pussy cat compared to the Titan though. Make sure its a sturdy one ;)
Once the engines are completely finished I'll give them a run and hopefully get a video - a few days yet then ;)
Ramon
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Morning 'Guys' - good to hear from you and see you're all still following - thanks for all those kind words of support.
Well - I have a grin from ear to ear ;D
Despite my foreboding that this would be difficult to obtain a run after just a few low rpm bursts and a tweak of the compression it was off - it ran the bloody tank out would you believe ;D
No video at this stage - this was just a test run - but Sue took the obligatory pics for you - here are three of 'em.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Bz5T_dw0qkg/VFdX5aRiXcI/AAAAAAAAMdQ/ayWE6QlzUAs/s912/DSCF6123.JPG)
There's a couple of things to attend too - you may note that despite trying to make allowance for it the threads have tightened 'over centre'. I can deal with that on the backplate by a couple of locking screws but I think it will have to be Loctite 'thread locker' on the front end on final assembly. The jet seems okay at #80 - 0.34mm, so will leave as is.
Regards - Ramon
Hi Ramon,
Told you it would run first time... but What!!! no Castrol R???... :hellno: :naughty:
Can you not use some paper or shim gaskets rather than Loctite?... at least it would make dis-assembly simpler... if ever needed.
Just a thought.
All the best.
Sandy. :cheers:
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Ramon
That's a brilliant outcome as if there was any doubt about the outcome
As I see it fixed choke variable jet , or fixed jet with variable choke do the same job as you have proved without any doubt.
Stuart
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Good to hear that they will run, out of interest what sort of run time will that integral tank give assuming it will be a bit leaner once run in?
Hope you have a nice colour in mind for the heads
J
PS Jo if you want one like I was testing the brick on and can wait until the 6th Dec let me know
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Congratulations! Clocking threads is a difficult task. It really has a special appearance.
Greg
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Ramon:
I can't add anything to what's been said, just want to reiterate. Beautiful build and result. Very Italian looking, as was said when you started. Inspiring work. Thank you for bringing us along for the ride.
Thanks.
Hugh
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Thanks Greg good to see you looking in.
Jason, I would guess it ran for about 3-4 mins this morning. As you say quite rich so it might improve a little though the intake was fully open so I don't think it will run any 'leaner' unless a smaller prop is used which is a possibility. It was running on a 13 x 4 'Airflo' which it turned steadily enough. BTW Have polished one this afternoon - not sure about the 'shine' :o but will wait until after the anodising to see if I can live with it or perhaps flat it down a little. Red Head and Prop Driver for that one - still undecided about the bead finished one - might just leave it as is.
Stuart - I can see your logic but this was a first for me so did have some doubt - unfounded it would appear ;)
Sandy, Because of the possibility of creep using gaskets I set out for metal to metal contact. Though I allowed for a degree of creep for bedding in once the threads had been tightened a time or two unfortunately it wasn't enough. I have managed to drill and tap a hole on the thread engagement line on the backplate but had a hell of a time removing it - fortunately no pick up but a worrying few moments ::). The position of this hole is moving outward on the second to drive into the case wall which should improve things I hope.
Using gaskets on the front will require re-machining to allow for the thickness no matter how thin so I'd rather (though reluctantly) use thread locker. Hopefully if a minimal amount is used that will allow removal without too much trouble should the need arise.
Regards - Ramon
Just seen your post Hugh - glad you enjoyed it - still a little bit more to come but yes the main 'journey' is nigh on over
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Very, very nice Tug, I knew you would pull it off to perfection, your a master craftsman,
it was well worth the wait. :DrinkPint:
:old: Eric
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A wonderful journey - again :NotWorthy:
Also looking forward to the video.
Best wishes
Per
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Another jewel sculptured by Ramon. I just love the way you carve metal. That is absolutely awesome Ramon. I do like................... :praise2: :praise2:
Don
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Great craftsmanship, thanks for sharing the journey with us.
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That's quite a build! This design certainly has an elegant look about it, much more so than a modern nitro engine!
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Hi Ramon,
Fantastic finish! The curves and blends are outstanding.
gbritnell
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Seeing your hand next to the engine made me aware that this is quite a big engine. The bigest I ever handled myself was a 3.5 cc glow which was, as i remember, about half as big. And not even half as beautiful, far from it to be honest.
I wonder about the way the fuel supply and air inlet work as there does not seem te be a normal venturi type on it. Can you, or someone else, fill me in on how this operates?
Wout
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Wout,
This post (http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php?topic=3233.msg79075#msg79075) and Ramon's reply below it may answer your question.
AS
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Eric, Per, Don, Pat, Rockknocker and George - good to see you looking in and thanks for all your kind comments :ThumbsUp:.
Wout, nice to see you looking in too - Allen has pointed you in the right direction to your query. As things go it is a rather tall engine but still only 5cc capacity. Next to say the first scaled engine - the Racer - it's quite a bit taller.
Had a long session today - first a real good clean up (there was a lot of cast iron dust from an impromptu machining of a backplate for a 5"chuck - one of those 'won't take long' jobs that's only been waiting for two years ::) ) then the other set of case parts was bead blasted on the new set up - a basic 'Sealey' blast cabinet - which worked well and proved more than adequate for this kind of work.
Set up the anodising kit after and following a few test pieces and some 'trials and tribs' managed to get a reasonable, though not quite perfect, result. The slight blemish on the driver and low take up of colour in some areas between some of the fins was down, I think, to inadequate de-greasing. Believe me though, when I say that I thought the de-greasing carried out was more than adequate - a good Acetone dip followed by a hot soda wash, rinsed in clean de-ionised water then the soda and rinse repeated. Just goes to show just how much more thorough it needs to be.
Anodising at this basic level is not something that can be rushed into - it is necessary to do those test pieces first to be certain that all the parameters are right which at 40 mins a throw in itself eats up the time.
Something beneficial did materialise however. Contrary to having been told in the past that it was not possible to anodise something that has been bead blasted, one of the better results was establishing that it can in actual fact be done :). I tried two test pieces and anodised them black in anticipation of doing a couple of crankcases in the future. Coming out a very dark grey it bodes well for the project
Thanks again - back soon
Ramon
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:praise2: :NotWorthy:
Well done Ramon another fantastic engine!!!! can't wait for the video.
Cheers
Dean
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Wout,This post (http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php?topic=3233.msg79075#msg79075) and Ramon's reply below it may answer your question.
Allen, although it probably does answer my question I still don't understand it fully. I see that there is an air intake with a rotating choke. The air enters and 'touches' a fuel spraybar and probably draws a bit of fuel by creating a venturi effect. But what is the function of the other brass button with the little hole? And is it adjustable?
Wout
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That will be the fuel filler cap, it is drilled to vent the tank otherwise a vacuum will build up in the tank as the fuel is used and the fuel won't flow due to the vacuum being higher than the draw from the engine
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Ah, now I understand! Thanks!
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That's a purrrrty engine Ramon!......Video please.....ala Maryak style.....that beast of his shook the whole shop!
:Lol: :ThumbsUp:
Dave
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Magnificent and sounds like it runs well :praise2: :praise2: Eagerly awaiting a video :popcorn: :DrinkPint:
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Fantastic workmanship and such a sweet looking engine!! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
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Dean, Dave, Roger, 'creast' thanks for your kind comments.
Dave don't expect too much - first indications are that these will not be particularly 'rev-vy' more a steady plod ;)
Both engines are now finished off completely. The second one has run on a prime in the hand but has not been tried on a full tank as yet.
The anodising did not go as well as in the past but I did get there in the end if not exactly what I had in mind on one of them.
This process can certainly have an inconsistency about it.
These three parts were all done together for the same length of time and all dyed together as well. Reasonable uptake of colour on the head - absolutely not a glimmer on the other two. Traced to a poor contact between the titanium hangars and the parts, a second go saw the anodising prove successful but then the dyeing varied ::) - no pics at this stage but you'll see what I mean when I do.
I really would be reluctant to take this on for anyone - it is mostly fraught with 'will it - won't it' concerns right through the process
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-TshmU5YtdPk/VF0y2GU0AwI/AAAAAAAAMec/40NazB5aR6w/s912/DSCF6135.JPG)
Last op was to mill those backplates to form the mounting lugs. A boss was turned to locate and centralise the part
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-u7kfWHkjlPk/VF0y2siokmI/AAAAAAAAMeg/lf-HQHeTUdM/s912/DSCF6141.JPG)
Then the waste removed. The lugs were finished using filing buttons and the usual files emery etc.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/--gfqNh36Q_o/VF0y2VJwiwI/AAAAAAAAMek/GpnD9IvkaMs/s912/DSCF6137.JPG)
It was my intention to locate the part using a pin through one of the holes to prevent rotation. It was only after filing these pics tonight I realise that I didn't so it could so easily have moved during cutting being held with only that one clamp ::) Now that would have been a disaster at this late stage - Pheww!
Before we get to running them as finished - probably Monday - I got to grips with carving a couple of propellers. It's not a difficult task - laying out the blank is the important part and good workholding a close second. Tools used were a small block plane to trim things up after sawing, a chisel, wood rasp, big half round file and some 60 and 80 grit abrasive paper wrapped around a piece of 25mm dowel.
The pitch defines the angles required at the tip and the inner station and once worked out the blank can be cut. This should have been approx 60.0mm wide at the tips but the material to hand was only 40.0 so due allowance was made.
Two blanks and the initial template
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-RYT6waZ2dRE/VF0y48OwATI/AAAAAAAAMes/8AoZewhXFWs/s912/DSCF6149.JPG)
The blanks marked out on the face and the taper marked on the sides
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-TjUqgOq2qe4/VF0y8bSVVQI/AAAAAAAAMe0/jawkGJQECao/s912/DSCF6152.JPG)
Rough sawn ready to shape the rear face
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-xKZP4P9wJtA/VF0y9N7wl4I/AAAAAAAAMe8/xR0JapcAu_M/s912/DSCF6158.JPG)
With one blade clamped to the bench and a dowel pin through the centre the rear faces are cut flat across at a slowly twisting angle from low edge to top edge - making sure it's the correct way, otherwise you make a pusher prop - yes you would be right ;) but it was a while ago ;D
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Uz3XLlbhTn0/VF0y9887Y1I/AAAAAAAAMfE/x0TZM05lRHw/s912/DSCF6164.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-4FQwKN5fhQk/VF0zBr5jkRI/AAAAAAAAMfM/pDd6cjWr8G8/s912/DSCF6168.JPG)
First stage done and the helical twist created
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-IwSFJEu_StA/VF0zCnzxP6I/AAAAAAAAMfU/0KwezNT2PJs/s912/DSCF6177.JPG)
The prop shape is marked on the face biasing the blade to one side to give more thickness on the leading edge (the thinner side just created)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-16FBAVwy-AU/VF0zDChVqaI/AAAAAAAAMfc/tq0unkMTkCg/s912/DSCF6180.JPG)
Bandsawn to the line ready to carve the front face
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-7Mj5bUbnq_U/VF0zGNswXKI/AAAAAAAAMfk/XmC5DodkCyg/s912/DSCF6191.JPG)
Clamped as before but using tapered packing the blade is carved to an approximate airfoil section
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-l6_w5FRwRgY/VF0zH7F72PI/AAAAAAAAMfw/LyGgVcJxefc/s912/DSCF6196.JPG)
After rough sanding the true shape begins to materialise
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-c64D84OFD78/VF0zIKJHFsI/AAAAAAAAMf0/LwU_ahkpSuw/s912/DSCF6200.JPG)
This is as far as was reached today before having a nice get together this afternoon with some fellow ME's for a birthday (not mine) lunch.
I'm sure there will be many on here who have carved props in the past. Whats shown is it's most basic form and done so for those who might like to try it. Just bear in mind the harder the wood the harder the task ;)
Sailing tomorrow but hopefully those first full runs will happen on Monday - have a great weekend :)
Regards - Ramon
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:thinking: Tug, you make it look so easy. I will also need to think of how to do laminations and that leading edge cover :noidea:
Maybe I will have to try on a simple one but I did pick a cheap one up for the Titan :wallbang:
Jo
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Thanks for the step-by-step, may just have to have a go but would need to make another engine first ;)
Do you balance the blade once all the shaping is done or is it not really an issue on these small lengths?
J
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Jo - It's not really that difficult - once the blank is laid out. Using hand tools though you do have to take your time as there are no real short cuts.
Laminations are no problem either but they do need really good clamping along the whole length when gluing up. There is a method described whereby the laminations can be fanned to give a helix. Personally I would not go down this route - clamping becomes a problem and the pitch then tends to be governed by the fanning rather than by dimension.
Jason - balancing is an important part - an out of balance prop will be readily noticeable. A tight fitting metal dowel with 60 degree points on each end and held between finger and thumb would suffice at this level though. I shall be finishing the props off today - more later
Ramon
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Jo what you really need for your laminations is to find a nice man with a vacuum press :thinking:
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Jo what you really need for your laminations is to find a nice man with a vacuum press :thinking:
You lost me there :headscratch:
What I really need is a man who can teach me how to handle manipulate get the brown stuff to do what I desire want need it to do. I know I should really like the stuff but my experience has left me feeling :paranoia:
Jo
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Jo, a vacuum press will apply even pressure over the whole of the laminations so you will bet a very good even glue line. The work is placed in a sealed bag and a vacuum pump draws out all the air, not sure how big your props are but I can do quite long things, this bag is good for upto 10ft :ThumbsUp:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Fitted%20Furniture/IMAG0038.jpg)
But there is always the fall back of a good supply of clamps, you can never have too many clamps ;)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/work/IMAG0273_zps21d286dc.jpg)
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Jason
or if you want a cheaper version get some of those vac bags that are about
like
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vacuum-Pack-Storage-Bags-bags/dp/7253700341/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&qid=1415529046&sr=8-11&keywords=vac+bags
other places have these to
and use your household / workshop vac to pull it down
should be OK for Jo's Job
Stuart
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Jason/Stuart, my problem with wood is no one ever taught me the basics of working in it: while the school I went to had extensive woodworking and metal working facilities us girls did not have any lessons in how to work in the stuff :rant:, we had to do lessons in home economics/needlework and other really useful things :censored: :censored: And my father's skills at woodwork can be written on the back of a postage stamp.
I will probably end up having to find an evening class in basic wood work :-\
Sorry Tug we seem to have side tracked your thread :-[
Jo
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Jo - if you want to borrow a vacuum-bagging setup just shout. I have the gear (and the bags) that I used for composite moulding in my racing days. In fact the only thing I'm lacking is tacki-tape (but bluetack works just as well on small stuff).
AS
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No worries Jo - this is all useful knowledge.
Though I don't have the facility (do have access to a good pump though) Jason is right about the vacuum bag as the better option. With the sizes of prop you are going to need though I'm sure clamps would be fine.
Wood is not that much different to metals in a way Jo - a good coarse file works wonders and lots of ali-oxide coarse grit paper stuck to sections of wood with double sided sticky tape will remove wood quite quickly as well and is easily replaced (and at low cost too ;)) Just remember though, whilst it's good for getting rid of material in the early stages, the one thing you don't want to do is finish sand across the grain so leave enough to clean up.
Have just finished sanded and balanced the first prop - more later
Ramon
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Guys as I said my knowledge of working in wood is best classed as zero, all attempts are best not shown in public :hellno: Silly things like how to correctly glue two pieces of wood together are for me advanced stuff. As for things like corner joints :-[ getting a flat surface :paranoia:
The :censored: British education system has a lot to answer for
Jo
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I think it must just have been your school Jo, We are about the same ages and as well as metalwork, woodwork and technical drawing all the boys at my scool also did home economics and needlework. So at least I know how to sew the top onto a pie :LittleDevil:
If all else fails stick it on a metal working machine and pretend its wood
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Jo - you need to keep in mind those old adages - 'You're never to old to learn something new' and 'You can learn something new every day' ;)
Anyway - props are now finished...
A couple of discs to match front and rear diameters were used with a 6mm dowel to locate them. The hub was sanded to the discs just like filing buttons
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ssOAngPa2-A/VF-BcZWozfI/AAAAAAAAMgU/z1zObaEQebQ/s912/DSCF6208.JPG)
A balancing pin was turned up (6mm silver steel) with 60 degree points on each end and used as a pivot. This is a simple but effective way of balancing for props used at the lower end of the RPM bands - more than adequate. Balancing is achieved by sanding the thickness/reshaping slightly the heavier blade. Due to that thick hub they do look a bit heavier than they actually feel. Wouldn't want to make the blades much thinner.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-GlOAsaUhbAI/VF-Bb2eKMmI/AAAAAAAAMgQ/mfl9qkSazJc/s912/DSCF6206.JPG)
Jo - to emphasise the point about leaving sufficient to sand to a smooth finish - this didn't quite reach the mark and only showed up on oiling.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-K3l9FcUgur4/VF-BcS9ON4I/AAAAAAAAMgM/-dKKngqy1W4/s912/DSCF6211.JPG)
And ready to use. Finish is just a couple of coats of Danish Oil rubbed in.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-V47CjW67z2k/VF-BfpOoRSI/AAAAAAAAMgc/NQE88gHJKLk/s912/DSCF6216.JPG)
Here are the engines as finished - hopefully I can get to run them tomorrow and if the camera is up to it I'll try and get a video.
Not sure if Eric (O) will like this one as I know he's not keen on 'bling' but I did want to produce one that was similar to the original done by Les Stone. Of the two I do actually prefer this one.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-2aiGzAHX2g0/VF-Bibh0DfI/AAAAAAAAMgo/vlqis8KkaoE/s912/DSCF6224.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-3Cl65RKJqks/VF-BilEa_zI/AAAAAAAAMgs/aKkC_xVnLic/s912/DSCF6226.JPG)
Maybe he'll think the bead blasted one is a bit better
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Hp171pnSNRk/VF-BkPOuqEI/AAAAAAAAMg0/G4WBq5WPdcc/s912/DSCF6233.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Gc7N2t4PTeA/VF-Bn0WA0gI/AAAAAAAAMhA/wzEFyjF9lk0/s912/DSCF6240.JPG)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-_9N9vofUXc8/VF-BoEABu_I/AAAAAAAAMhI/bWe-_G37N-8/s912/DSCF6248.JPG)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-iExWYlEnEIM/VF-Bt5WWM-I/AAAAAAAAMhk/YGxKxwzHVJo/s912/DSCF6259.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-_gAkb1XyPGc/VF-BtJvaw4I/AAAAAAAAMhg/rwvKrp7EeJ8/s912/DSCF6255.JPG)
In retrospect I wish I had left the bead blasted one as a plain ali head and driver/spinner though Sue thinks the blue head to be the nicer. The blue is nowhere near as light as was intended and is three distinctly different shades. That doesn't show so well on these images but it is quite noticeable up close. It ain't getting changed now though ::)
Well apart from a run tomorrow that's the end of this little engine adventure. I can see there's been quite a lot of visits and there's been quite a good response to the postings so if you've enjoyed this half as much as I have you'll be well happy :ThumbsUp:
After they are run and packed away tomorrow ( I expect it will be Guildford before they resurface) I have a 'yachty' matter to attend to for a week or three then hopefully work will recommence on that steam launch.
Thanks to all for following but a special thanks to Eric (O) for without his help and input this would have been very much just one more 'idealistic' project to add to that ever growing list.
Finally, I'd just like to pay tribute to Ron Chernich who was the first point of call when I was struck by Les's example. I later sent Ron a set of my pencil drawings and he was going to draw them in Cad in his usual style. Sadly his illness took over and his subsequent calling prevented that but I feel for sure he would have loved to have known they did get finished.
Regards - Ramon
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You had the opposite sex at your schools :cartwheel:
They kept the girls at another school aver a mile away , the nearest to using cloth stuff was in the first aid classes , bandages is what they was come to think of it
Joking aside the first aid classes have come in useful in later life so they were a good thing , yes we had metal and wood work , how to blow up the science lab a little bit of rithmatic and riting , still very bad at spelling but now I know why , but cane every week for it still grates
Jo wood is just soft metal just don't try to weld it :facepalm:
Stuart
Sorry Ramon could not resist , now how to slip out to get the boss a birthday card Monday canot forget it's 11/11/ dare not say but it start with a 4 and adds up to 10
Just seen your post Ramon they are wonderful
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:NotWorthy: :NotWorthy: Those came out really beautiful Ramon!
Must say, I'd join Sue in liking the blue one more as well ;)
Kind regards, Arnold
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I've done quite a lot of wood lamination (and wood/glass/carbon lamination) using vacuum bagging and I think I would suggest it's easier than mechanical clamping. You do have to use a non-solvent-based adhesive (eg a thin epoxy), but the clamping pressure is applied far more evenly - you don't get "hard spots" due to thickness variations in the veneers, and to an extent the adhesive distributes itself.
For something like a prop you're probably best just assembling a rectangular-section block rather than trying to use profiled blanks (too difficult to keep them in position while clamped). I can lend you the pump and I can give you the bag materials, breather felt and tacki-tape. All you'll need to get is some laminating epoxy (although I may still have some that's in-date) and a lump of something flat to vacuum it onto (eg a piece of wooden board or even a bit of 4-6mm metal plate.
How you approach it would depend largely on the sizes the wood comes in - if you're looking to do 11" props and you can get your wood stock in 36" lengths I'd be quite tempted to make up a block 36" long and (say) 1.5" wide, sawing it into the required lengths after lamination. I'd also be tempted to include some layers of 25g glass cloth in the mix, but that's just me.
At the risk of giving egg-sucking lessons here - we're talking about "real" vacuum rather than vacuum-cleaner pressures. I have three pumps that were used for different things (I used to "autoclave" my carbon spars, but that's a different thing!). The simple one which I'm suggesting you could borrow pulls down well over 14psi, whereas a vacuum cleaner will barely pull 2-3psi and won't give anything like the required clamping pressure. Also be aware that if you want to do this before the weather warms up then you'll need to do the layup indoors too ensure the epoxy is warm enough to both wet and cure well. That should cause you too many problems because the epoxy is essentially odourless and the pump is essentially silent once the vacuum is pulled down. You do have to leave the pump on for 12-24 hours, because the bag seal is never good enough to keep the vacuum on its own.
AS
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What a beautiful result. I think I prefer the red one.
Best of luck for tomorrow when you will run them for the first time.
Vince
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I think the blue one is a bit cold and clinical, on the other hand the red one with it's additional brass work has a nice warmth to it and makes you want to fondle it, though Ramon has previously commented on my liking for red engines :-[ Look forward to seeing the video.
Back to teh laminating, I would think Jo can get away with an alphatic resin on the props, thats what I use for 90% of the stuff I laminate both flat and curved. Something like Titebond II which is a waterproof carpenters yellow glue should do the trick. If it were going outside then I'd be looking at an epoxy from the likes of West Systems
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Their both beautiful Ramon!
I do tend to favor the red one though.
Thanks for sharing this incredible build with us; your work is amazing and inspiring.
Dave
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I vote for sending me the Red one ;D
Well done Tug :ThumbsUp: so after the video :stickpoke: what's next :naughty:
Jo
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I'd like the red on the matt finished body ;-)
Beautiful work though Ramon!
Simon.
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Ramon:
Beautiful results. Thanks again for sharing you build in real time.
Blue or red. Hmm. Like picking your favorite child, shouldn't go there.
Thanks.
Hugh
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Beautiful done as always Ramon. Although blue is my favorite I love the red one.
Don
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Absolutely beautiful Ramon!
They are both gorgeous engines.
Kim
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Two beautifully sculpted engines, Ramon! (http://serve.mysmiley.net/love/love0001.gif) (http://www.blueislandsdiving.com)
Well done. Well shown. Thank you...... (http://freesmileyface.net/smiley/respect/respect-048.gif) (http://freesmileyface.net/free-respect-smileys.html)
David D
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I like the red one best, but both are gorgeous. The props are great too. I cut a lot of props for my rubber driven models, most out of balsa, but also out of willow, spruce, maroon and chestnut. A tutorial is on my website: http://www.zininmodelvliegen.nl/downloads/How_to_carve_a_balsa_prop.pdf
This one is spruce:
(http://www.zininmodelvliegen.nl/images/polly-10.jpg)
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This one is spruce:
(http://www.zininmodelvliegen.nl/images/polly-10.jpg)
Very cute, but I'd have at least 3-channel RC in it... :naughty:
I have a 3-channel "Sleek Streak" which is only 10g heavier than the original rubber-powered version, using 2g servos, a geared 4mm pager motor driving a home-brewed glass prop, a single cell 80mAh battery and a Deltang quarter-gramme receiver.
AS
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This one is spruce:
(http://www.zininmodelvliegen.nl/images/polly-10.jpg)
Very cute, but I'd have at least 3-channel RC in it... :naughty:
I have a 3-channel "Sleek Streak" which is only 10g heavier than the original rubber-powered version, using 2g servos, a geared 4mm pager motor driving a home-brewed glass prop, a single cell 80mAh battery and a Deltang quarter-gramme receiver.
AS
For some reason I can't quite seem to get Spike Milligan out of my head ::)
Ramon
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I think that they both look great :praise2: :praise2:
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Thanks Arnold, Vince, Jason, Dave O, Jo, Simon, Hugh, Don, Kim and David D for your comments and input. I have to say that it took quite a leap of faith to polish that crankcase but now it's done I'm glad I did as it is quite different to the usual finish.
Vince - I thought I might hear from someone else in sunny Malta ;) ;) but I should've known better - no chance . I can hear the excuses now :Lol: - Hope you're having a good holiday Chris and Gill
Jo - You must have missed it - it's a yachty thing for the coming few weeks then a restart on the steam launch. Engine wise haven't thought too much about it - I have some c'cases underway for a couple more '5's and then there's that Bentley I'd like to consider but I do want to make another steam engine too. It's all to far ahead to make any definite plans at the moment though :)
Wout, My stick and tissue free flight days are long gone but I have many memories and still have a couple of rubber powered models up the loft. I gave all my indoor stuff away a year or so back but still have an awful lot of FF materials though - balsa, tissue rubber etc - theres just not enough hours in the day for every thing ::)
Well to get this back on track guys ;) I've had a good and basically uneventful session running both engines this morning and am very pleased with the results given the kind of engines they are.
Never intended as anything else but a machining project, to see and hear them run though is always a bonus :D.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Hd_rW7c0tD8/VGDxJilzf7I/AAAAAAAAMiQ/gUFfDgNaG2k/s912/DSCF6275.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-IGZXEXJMs0E/VGDxJzpARLI/AAAAAAAAMiY/W2_pxJdpb5Y/s912/DSCF6277.JPG)
I think those jets could in actual fact be a tad smaller - maybe .2 -.25 mm as they still appear to run quite rich. The contra pistons are rather tight but I'll leave them as is at least for now as they will not get run that often and to remove them means a complete strip down.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-yf3FFFvBrxU/VGDxMgtljEI/AAAAAAAAMig/rBqJpI7tEzM/s912/DSCF6284.JPG)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-e6h2S9YUFnE/VGDxN1ARF_I/AAAAAAAAMio/39JbAMrQjSo/s912/DSCF6288.JPG)
You'll notice in the video the 'red head' version is rocking slightly - it's not a loose mount but rather the backplate loose and the rocking limited by the locking screw. That front housing was installed after that initial run using some Rocol pipe sealant used on the boiler. This appears to have cured the overtightening so the backplate has now been fitted the same - hopefully that will hold as well. I noticed as the 'blue head' was running that the front housing gradually tightened itself over centre so that's now been treated the same. One thing noticed compared to all the other engines made was just how hot the whole engine was - whether that's down to that mount blanking some airflow around the case as Jo was thinking I'm not sure - nothing serious just noticeably hotter when removing them afterwards.
Anyway heres a short vid of the two engines. I've spent most of the day getting to grips with a free download movie editor - this is my first attempt so no 'grimacing' :Lol:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7Gl4QVlksU
That 'sluffing' noise you can hear as it's being flicked is not the piston slapping around in the bore :o - that's actually coming from the intake.
Well that really is the end of the line - hope you all enjoyed it.
Now there's engines to clean and put away and a workshop to clean too before getting to grips with that yacht stuff.
Back soon - Ramon.
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8)
They are not as loud as I was expecting, I had to turn up the volume ;)
You meany catching that fuel bottle just as I was expecting it to fall off the table :LittleDevil:
Jo
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very Nice pair of enginesRamon, wonder if that slightly smaller needle will cure the odd missfire? Hope you cleaned all that oil off Sue's best table.
J
PS Keep us posted on the launch progress
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Jo - They are not that noisy actually - well relative to say the Etas - but I think the real culprit is the inadequacy of the microphone on the camera.
It's very early days yet Jason, usually if a diesel is misfiring a tad it's slightly under compressed and/or too rich. With them being so new the compression couldn't be raised much - at this stage of the running in they would go hard and over compress very quickly and of course that fuel setting is in the 'lap of the gods' That said though I think I prefer to hear a diesel when slightly misfiring rather than at full chat ;)
Sue was not impressed with me using the table, specially with the Vicar coming to tea ;D
Regards - Ramon
PS Will do ;)
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Both sound great :praise2: :praise2: but I always get nervous seeing peoples hands and fingers so close to rotating propellers :facepalm:
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Beautiful work Ramon :ThumbsUp:
Best Regards
Bob
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Thank you very much for an interesting journey Ramon - some nice beauties and relative good runners as your outcome + an impressed crowd :praise2:
Best wishes
Per
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Hi Ramon, top runners, congratulations.
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Nice show, Ramon. Entertaining and impressive, both workmanship and results.
Jerry
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Brill.
I've really enjoyed the build, great to see them working as well.
Ta,
Rod
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: WOW!!!! They look massive mate. What a top job you have done, thanks for sharing
Dean
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Well done: with compliment!
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Hi Ramon. Sorry to bring up a late construction question to your beautiful project, but it pertains to a project I'm embarking on. Can you elaborate on how you went about finishing the bore ID of aluminum cylinder portion (and head for that matter) to the steel/iron liner OD? It would seem to me this would have to be a near perfect slip fit. At least that's what's called out in my plans. I assume the case is not heated & liner inserted like a gentle shrink fit, correct?
So maybe more a general question directed to aluminum cylinders - was it careful machining (only) that achieved target bore dimension & tolerance? Or is there some equivalent of 'lapping' aluminum that you employed behind the scenes? I read your excellent Lapping & Honing post elsewhere, but that primarily pertained to lapping steel/iron with copper clad tools & compounds. Was the liner completed beforehand & aluminum bore matched to suit?
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Hi Ramon
Fantastic Job as usual, They are Beauties :praise2: :praise2:
Pete
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Hi Guys - I must admit this thread had gone off the old radar a bit so thanks for all your kind comments :)
'Petertha' - it's never to late to ask a question if you need an answer - no problems at all.....
The heads are a nice slide fit over the liners - probably about .0005 to .001 max on diameter. There has to be a gap to allow the screw threads to engage and rotate. Like wise the liner fit to the crankcase though the fit here can be a little more relaxed- say .002 max on diameter. This was achieved by machine fits only, the only thing being lapped were the liner bores themselves.
One of the things not anticipated was for the liner to rotate as the head was screwed up tight throwing the porting out of line. This was 'cured' by a short screw through the case into a blind hole in the liner wall but I think it might have been better had the fit of liner to case been a tight push fit.
All the engines with liners made so far, save one, have had tight, push, but moveable, fits on the cylinder heads. The odd one was on the ETA Elite Mk2 where the original had a shrunk on set of fins with a separate cylinder head. The lapping of the liner on this particular engine was done after shrinking the fins on. The shrink fit will cause closing of the bore unless the liner is very thick walled (unlikely in most instances)
These engines heads were bored to a previously turned plug gauge but, as you surmise, to achieve the right kind of fit on a 'one off' I would be inclined to machine the liner first and use this as a plug gauge to get as close as possible to a size for size interference fit. A light 'tweak' with a piece of 800 wet and dry paper wrapped round a wood dowel will quickly get the slide fit required.
Hope this is helpful to you
Regards - Ramon
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Beautiful, quite beautiful. They sound nice too!!
When I used to fly F1B (Wakefield, rubber powered model aeroplanes) The props were generally carved, very therapeutic!! Especially when using western red cedar, it used to take me about a week to carve a pair of blades.
When vac bagging the advantage of using epoxy, compared to for instance PVA is that epoxy has a well defined curing time, whereas PVA in a lamination can cure/dry at a variable rate. It's something of a bore to take a laminate out of a vac bag, start working it and finding soft spots.....
love your work Ramon!!
cheers
Bill
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Ramon, I have just finished the most enjoyable 5 hours reading your build log of these two engines. I had to keep calling my wife to look at the pictures of your amazing workmanship. the final results are simply stunning. Thank you for taking all the great detailed shots of the processes during the build I have learned a great deal looking at your photographs and descriptions of the processes.
I gather that you are also building some boats and a rotary from some of your comments and pictures in this thread, it was a boat engine that brought me to this forum.
I see that we are also close in age and share an affection for the Myford, it was interesting to see the close up shots that included the tooling for the Myford as well, you answered the question about the index holes in the lathe chuck, my question is did you drill these yourself? I like the way the index tab is mounted on the front of the casing, I have jury rigged up using the end of the headstock with the various change-wheels in the past. My own Myford is getting close to needing the headstock bearing replaced so I will need to address that soon.
You also made the comment that you needed to do most of your aluminum machining dry, I am curious about that, I mostly work dry as well but have found that with aluminum( as an Englishman I always want to spell it Aluminium) I need to use a little varsol or paraffin.
Again beautiful work on the engines.
Mike
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Mike - it's nice to hear you found the thread of interest - hope your wife didn't get too bored ;)
As I'm sure any regular poster on here will attest too taking time out to photograph what's going on then making time to sit down and write about it takes another chunk out of the day that could be spent on the project. It's nice however to be able to share with others of similar minds so to hear that someone is enjoying it does makes any effort involved all the more worthwhile.
Boats are a peripheral interest. The steam launch began as a potential project in 1972 but only actually began to take shape last year - after a lay off it's about to make an appearance on the bench again in a couple of weeks or so. The rotary - well , who knows? Good intentions and actuality are sometimes so far apart ::)
I've had my Myford since about 1980 (Cost new c £714 inc motor :o) It's been a faithful servant over those years and is still in very good condition. The holes were drilled in the chuck whilst re-training in 1981. I trained as a milling machinist and the instructor was very accommodating - whilst no 'homework' was allowed if the work was similar to a laid down exercise then it could be used as such. Several such exercise 'replacements' were quickly found ;)
I guess I've been a little misleading - when I say I do most of my machining dry I actually meant that I don't have a coolant supply rigged up on lathe or mill. I do use a small brush to apply soluble oil from a can as required on steel and likewise paraffin on ali which for most of the time seems to be more than sufficient.
I hope you enjoy the forum, it certainly gives a great deal of pleasure
Regards - Ramon
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Ramon thank you for your speedy answers. I look forward to seeing your boat work.
Mike