Model Engine Maker

Supporting => Vehicles & Models => Topic started by: crueby on October 13, 2017, 08:38:53 PM

Title: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 13, 2017, 08:38:53 PM
And on to the next big build!   :whoohoo:

The next project is plans then model for a Marion Model 91 steam shovel, of the type used on the Panama Canal and lots of other large excavations. There happens to be one of the last ones existing sitting in a field outside a quarry near where I live. It was used in the quarry starting in approximately 1906, then abandoned in the field in 1949. It was originally a railroad truck mounted machine, later on it was converted (using tracks made by Marion) to sit on 2 pairs of crawler tracks - front powered, rear steerable. The town acquired the land it sits on in the 1960s, and it later was added to the national landmark registry. Here are some photos of what it looks like now.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5368o0rzr/DSC_4856a.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/6uz7ixj2f/DSC_4954a.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/ik376vulj/DSC_4956a.jpg)

I have been working with the town historical society and others, and have gotten some photos and measurements from them, plus photos of the outside of my own, and a set of digital laser scans that were done about 10 years ago. Next month I should be able to get inside during a park service survey, and get more detailed internal photos and measurements. I've also gotten copies of two of the original Marion product catalogs which show tons of detail (as they brag about the features) of the internal parts, and also have downloaded a bunch of their patents from the early days, which are another gold mine of information about the internal workings.

I've started drawing the machine up in Fusion360 as a full-sized model, and after that is complete I'll decide what scale to build the model to, and come up with a scaled-down set of the plans. The full size plans will be the first and only (as far as I have been able to find out) set of measured drawings for a complete model 91 shovel. All I've been able to find are general arrangement layout drawings and old photos of them in action. Here are a couple of screen captures of the 3D model so far:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8a0s7ersn/Marion_91_v21.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/8zjkjs7rr/Marion_91_v21a.jpg)
As you can see, there are a pair of large outriggers at the front end - these take the place of the original jack stand supports from when it was rail-mounted. The outriggers are what the crawler track hubs attach to. They have a set of u-koints connecting back to the central drive hub (not modelled yet) to propel the machine. The rear tracks are a pair that sit close together under the original rear truck mount, and is steerable by a long worm gear which is driven by a fourth steam engine that was added as part of the crawler 'kit'.

The other steam engines are: one on the main boom to run the dipper boom in and out, one to swing the front booms side to side on the turntable, and one to drive both the main bucket hoist and also the axles to move the machine. Quite a mechansim!

Other changes that were made to the machine during its life: the folding rear deck that would hold coal for the boiler was converted to a permenant platform, and also the wooden sides were replaced with sheet steel.

So, for now, the research and 3D drawing will continue for a while, then I'll pick the scale and make up the plans for the model and start construction. I'll post updates as the 3D model progresses and as I get more research done.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: J.L. on October 13, 2017, 10:22:21 PM
Hi Chris,

What a wonderful undertaking! This will be a significant prototype model.
 :popcorn:

Cheers...John
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 13, 2017, 10:35:08 PM
Hi Chris,

What a wonderful undertaking! This will be a significant prototype model.
 :popcorn:

Cheers...John

Thanks John! 

What I really need is for you to build me one of your wonderful dioramas of a workshop at 12":1' scale so I could build a real steam shovel!!   :Lol:    I think I have a location set to display the Lombard, have no clue where to put the shovel when it is done, unless I can make it to the kind of scale that George builds.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on October 13, 2017, 11:03:06 PM
Hi Chris,

What a wonderful undertaking! This will be a significant prototype model.
 :popcorn:

Cheers...John

Thanks John! 

What I really need is for you to build me one of your wonderful dioramas of a workshop at 12":1' scale so I could build a real steam shovel!!   :Lol:    I think I have a location set to display the Lombard, have no clue where to put the shovel when it is done, unless I can make it to the kind of scale that George builds.

Well Chris........you could always put it to work digging a swimming pool in your backyard!  :naughty:

This is going to be another great project. I'm looking forward to following along.  :popcorn:  :popcorn:  :popcorn:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: b.lindsey on October 13, 2017, 11:06:52 PM
Yep, ready and waiting here too  :popcorn:

Bill
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: yogi on October 13, 2017, 11:43:48 PM
Another great project Chris! I'm looking forward to see the progress...  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on October 14, 2017, 04:08:22 AM
Oh oh! Having commented the  :popcorn:else where, now I have to split it up! Shouldn't be too long before I can plant up the field again!

This should be another fun build to follow!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 14, 2017, 04:18:56 AM
Should be a good long ride on this one, lots of frames and body works, 4 twin cylinder engines, 4 crawler tracks, plus the booms and bucket. And a turntable! Too bad there isn't a working one to play with along the way.


At least for this one the chains are a style I can buy by the yard!

Oh oh! Having commented the  :popcorn:else where, now I have to split it up! Shouldn't be too long before I can plant up the field again!

This should be another fun build to follow!

Cheers Kerrin
So just open side by side browser windows and munch popcorn while turning your head back and forth!!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on October 14, 2017, 08:21:43 AM
 :lolb: :lolb:

Now if I can just figure out how I've been doing that by accident on my iPad......then how to put it back I'm in!,

Think it might have to be a bowl for each hand!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Plani on October 14, 2017, 08:37:13 AM
Wow, what a project Chris!!
I' ll be along for the ride  :popcorn:  :popcorn: :popcorn:
That will be awesome.

Plani
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jo on October 14, 2017, 09:05:06 AM
Nice project  :naughty:

At least for this one the chains are a style I can buy by the yard!

I hope you still have the joys of machining up the tracks, we all appreciated how much you enjoy those  :LittleDevil: : they are just like shelling studs  :facepalm:

Jo
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 14, 2017, 01:34:13 PM
Nice project  :naughty:

At least for this one the chains are a style I can buy by the yard!

I hope you still have the joys of machining up the tracks, we all appreciated how much you enjoy those  :LittleDevil: : they are just like shelling studs  :facepalm:

Jo


Oh yes, the tracks will have to be machined up.   :insane:   these don't have the interlocking fingers on the outer plate, must have a joint on a inner T, can't tell from the pics I have now, but am getting a chance to inspect up close in a couple of weeks.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 14, 2017, 01:35:07 PM
Wow, what a project Chris!!
I' ll be along for the ride  :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
That will be awesome.

Plani
Hey, pass some of the popcorn this way!  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: PJPickard on October 14, 2017, 01:58:41 PM
Great project and another that has been on my list for years, looking forward to it!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: fumopuc on October 14, 2017, 08:21:20 PM
OK, ready to follow along.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 14, 2017, 11:55:08 PM
Few more additions to the main boom - corrected the bolts and center blocks, and added the step plates and the guy wires from the end of the boom to the top of the A-frame.  One interesting thing that Marion did was to have the booms actually made of oak, wrapped in steel plates. Their reason (according to their catalogs) was that the oak provided some spring back to the steel, preventing fractures under shock loads. Sort of like having softer steel on the back of a knife blade I guess. On the one in LeRoy, the large center block at the base of the main boom, which is not wrapped like the side beams are, is pretty rotted, hard to say what shape the ones inside the two side beams are like since they have 1" thick plates on all sides.

Anyway, here is the newer drawing:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/s8uff5e3r/Marion_91_v22.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: wagnmkr on October 15, 2017, 11:02:22 AM
Good to see the start of a new project Chris. Make it the same scale as the Lombard and you have the start of a small construction company. I'm watching this one with pleasure.

Tom
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 15, 2017, 02:06:52 PM
Good to see the start of a new project Chris. Make it the same scale as the Lombard and you have the start of a small construction company. I'm watching this one with pleasure.

Tom
Thanks Tom!  Think it will need to be a smaller scale than the Lombard or I won't be able to lift it! At 1":1' it would be huge! It has to fit through the shop door at minimum...  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: wagnmkr on October 15, 2017, 03:23:55 PM
How long is the cab?

Tom
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 15, 2017, 05:17:58 PM
How long is the cab?

Tom
The real machine? The cab is 50 feet long, 9' 9"  wide,  and 11 feet tall (not counting the tracks). The boom/shovel assembly makes it over half again as long. Quite a large machine.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: scc on October 15, 2017, 06:36:54 PM
Good to see the start of a new project Chris. Make it the same scale as the Lombard and you have the start of a small construction company. I'm watching this one with pleasure.

Tom
Thanks Tom!  Think it will need to be a smaller scale than the Lombard or I won't be able to lift it! At 1":1' it would be huge! It has to fit through the shop door at minimum...  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: scc on October 15, 2017, 06:38:47 PM
Sorry....pressed wrong button :facepalm2:        You could always cut away half the door post as I had to!!!             terry
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 15, 2017, 08:19:48 PM
Sorry....pressed wrong button :facepalm2:        You could always cut away half the door post as I had to!!!             terry

Whoops!

I can't remember how many times I re-measured the doors and windows when making large boat parts in my upstairs workshop!

For this one, the model shop is in the back room on the ground floor, and I'd have to cut the door post, and a slot in the side wall!!!   :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 15, 2017, 08:23:57 PM
More 3D modelling today, got the main boom itself done (the engine that sits on it  to move the dipper boom will be a seperate drawing later on).

(https://s5.postimg.cc/owe7mak1z/Marion_91_v23.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/vzm31wx7b/Marion_91_v23a.jpg)

Next up I think will be the sheaves that guide the chain that wraps around the turntable.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: rudydubya on October 15, 2017, 09:34:27 PM
Looks like a fantastic project Chris.  Looking forward to following along.

Regards,
Rudy
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: wagnmkr on October 15, 2017, 10:32:58 PM
How long is the cab?

Tom
The real machine? The cab is 50 feet long, 9' 9"  wide,  and 11 feet tall (not counting the tracks). The boom/shovel assembly makes it over half again as long. Quite a large machine.

I didn't realize that the real thing was that large. !/24 would still be a push to go through a doorway ... 1/48 perhaps?

Tom
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 15, 2017, 11:17:58 PM
How long is the cab?

Tom
The real machine? The cab is 50 feet long, 9' 9"  wide,  and 11 feet tall (not counting the tracks). The boom/shovel assembly makes it over half again as long. Quite a large machine.

I didn't realize that the real thing was that large. !/24 would still be a push to go through a doorway ... 1/48 perhaps?

Tom
Well, for the body alone, 1:12 would be 50" x ~10 x 11", which is fine for width, but the length is pretty big. Something in the range of 1:16 to 1:24 should be do-able, assuming the boom/turntable could come off easily - would need some removeable links in the chains maybe. I have not given the model scale too much thought, going to wait till it is all designed as a full-scale plan first (copies of which will go to the historical society, maybe be published as-is), then I'll look at overall sizes plus sizes of the engines to see what scale to reduce the model to. I hope I don't need to get down to the Tiny type sizes that George Britnell lives at!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 15, 2017, 11:28:36 PM
One more 3D update for the day - was going to quit and go back outside, but a storm front moved through this evening. Added the chain guide wheels for the turntable slewing chains, which come off a drum back in the engine compartment, one off the top, one off the bottom, and come forward through these guide wheels and around the rim of the turntable, ends held inside the boom at the front. Notice that one wheel is tilted up to aim at the top of the drum, and there is an angled guide channel behind it as well.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/4sz6nkp13/Marion_91_v25.jpg)

Doint things up in 3D is going to solve TONS of interference issues later on - the measurements I am interpreting from the laser scan and photos are only so precise, the 3D model lets me sight right down objects and paths to know when to move something over a half-inch or whatever.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jon Cameron on October 15, 2017, 11:30:38 PM
I'll be watching this build progress, looks like it'll turn into a good 'un.
 As for scale if you can get it to 1:19 or 1:24 scale then there are proprietry wagons that would make a for a good diorama at a show, if your into that sort of thing??? Would be good to load some wagons up with some sand  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 15, 2017, 11:33:49 PM
I'll be watching this build progress, looks like it'll turn into a good 'un.
 As for scale if you can get it to 1:19 or 1:24 scale then there are proprietry wagons that would make a for a good diorama at a show, if your into that sort of thing??? Would be good to load some wagons up with some sand  :popcorn:

Thats a good point! Have to see what railroad gondolas/etc are available in what scales, or maybe an early dump truck.

For this forum, it would be perfect for scooping more popcorn into the bowl!   :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jon Cameron on October 15, 2017, 11:46:16 PM
For American trains you'll be looking at 1:24, or G Scale. Though it would look equally as good alongside a 1:19 16mm scale trains.despite been an American scoop.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on October 16, 2017, 02:55:34 AM
The early drawings are coming along nicely Chris.

I got to thinking about the operation of this "bad boy" and was wondering if you happen to know how large of a crew it took to run it?

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: paul gough on October 16, 2017, 03:39:02 AM
Hi Chris, Looks to be an interesting project with the research etc. As to the scale question, I am presuming you are keeping true to steam operation(?), thus the question might not be the overall dimensioning but practical dimensioning of operating components and what your manufacturing capacity is. There are plenty of G1 railroad cranes of similar type,some scratch built, but I have not seen any steam operated jobs other than 5'' gauge or bigger. Maybe a similar general sizing that complements your Shay and Lombard would just about be big enough for steam operation?? Interested to hear your thoughts as to how far down in size you think is viable for an operable steamer. Regards Paul Gough.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Alan Haisley on October 16, 2017, 05:34:50 AM

This looks like it will be really fun to watch. I'm glad you have access to the 12" to 1' model to get measurements. Are you sure that the whole beast is there?


Alan
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 16, 2017, 11:24:48 AM
Hi Chris, Looks to be an interesting project with the research etc. As to the scale question, I am presuming you are keeping true to steam operation(?), thus the question might not be the overall dimensioning but practical dimensioning of operating components and what your manufacturing capacity is. There are plenty of G1 railroad cranes of similar type,some scratch built, but I have not seen any steam operated jobs other than 5'' gauge or bigger. Maybe a similar general sizing that complements your Shay and Lombard would just about be big enough for steam operation?? Interested to hear your thoughts as to how far down in size you think is viable for an operable steamer. Regards Paul Gough.
I definitely want to have the engines operable, so that will be a factor on scale chosen. Getting a boiler that small to generate enough steam for four twin engines may not be practical, may be set up just for compressed air if not.


Final choice on scale won't happen for a while yet!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 16, 2017, 11:29:16 AM

This looks like it will be really fun to watch. I'm glad you have access to the 12" to 1' model to get measurements. Are you sure that the whole beast is there?


Alan
All the machinery is there, though small brass fittings were stolen years ago. Repairs were made during its life, wood siding was changed to steel, sliding doors changed to hinged. The main chains were welded to the pulleys and the extra on the drums was removed when it was abandoned. The control levers are still there. Lots of rust and dirt has been added!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 16, 2017, 11:31:16 AM
The early drawings are coming along nicely Chris.

I got to thinking about the operation of this "bad boy" and was wondering if you happen to know how large of a crew it took to run it?

Jim
I have seen descriptions of up to 8 men to run, for controls and boiler crew.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: MJM460 on October 16, 2017, 12:32:13 PM
Hi Chris, another great project I will be following along.

  It depends on exactly how it operates, but the small boiler may not be too much of a problem (within reason), as I think the engines may normally operate only one at a time.   Perhaps driving and steering though it might even stop for steering.  It would not be a high speed machine.  Similarly the boom operations might be planned to be one at a time, and intermittant to a degree, so giving the boiler time to catch up.  Though might have some little continuous bleeds to clear condensate from the idle engines.

MJM460

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jon Cameron on October 16, 2017, 12:44:18 PM
It's a good point, most steam cranes generally operate on a basis of having twin cylinders, and dog and clutch drives, through gears to the winding drums. How is the setup organised inside? A small boiler operating at 40-60psi and internally gas fired, would probably be sufficient to operate the boom, even lifting heavier loads. It's about getting the internals to quickly transfer the heat to the boiler.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 16, 2017, 05:12:48 PM
Actually the hoist engine, the largest, would be running fairly constantly, engaging the clutch on the bucket as needed, while the swing and dipper boom engines came on and off and reversed frequently. The bucket lowered by clutch and brake under its own weight. Pretty much all the time at least two would run at once during active digging, at least with a skilled operator. The tracks ran off another clutch on the hoist engine, and the steering was its own separate engine added when the tracks replaced the rail trucks.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 16, 2017, 10:03:23 PM
Today's update: started on the dipper boom. Main shape is done, need to add more details (bolts/etc). Position on the main boom is approximate, will finalize when the larger gears that run it in and out are made. Also, realized that I had made the upper sheave on the main boom a single, it needs to be a double, and the other sheave near it had to be moved to the side, so that the chains to the bucket can form a double fall.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/uu51zs23b/Marion_91_v27.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: b.lindsey on October 17, 2017, 01:29:29 AM
Think I may need a 50lb sack if popcorn for this one Chris. Looking good on paper so far though.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 17, 2017, 01:41:27 AM
Think I may need a 50lb sack if popcorn for this one Chris. Looking good on paper so far though.

Bill
You must have a BIG microwave for that much popcorn!!   :Lol:


I just heard from the historical society, the visit from the park service guys from Steamtown has been moved back a week to mid November, so one more week to get the rest of the 3d model in shape before then. The fine details of the engines, drums, clutches, and tracks will have to wait until I get in for my own photos and measurements since the ones I got from other sources don't have any close up shots of them. Still lots I can get done till then.


I am going to be taking a side trip this week to design up a modification to the log advance ratchet mechanism for the water driven sawmill at the museum in Maine. They want to cut the advance distance in half to reduce the stress on the blade, and were going to rework the gears till I pointed out that adding a second set of pawls half a tooth over would mean only having to change a pivot point on the lever. Measurements are coming tomorrow, and I will be drawing the new setup in Fusion for them.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 90LX_Notch on October 17, 2017, 03:08:38 AM
Cool project Chris.  I'll be watching.


-Bob
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on October 17, 2017, 03:14:52 AM
Think I may need a 50lb sack if popcorn for this one Chris. Looking good on paper so far though.

Bill
You must have a BIG microwave for that much popcorn!!   :Lol:


I just heard from the historical society, the visit from the park service guys from Steamtown has been moved back a week to mid November, so one more week to get the rest of the 3d model in shape before then. The fine details of the engines, drums, clutches, and tracks will have to wait until I get in for my own photos and measurements since the ones I got from other sources don't have any close up shots of them. Still lots I can get done till then.


I am going to be taking a side trip this week to design up a modification to the log advance ratchet mechanism for the water driven sawmill at the museum in Maine. They want to cut the advance distance in half to reduce the stress on the blade, and were going to rework the gears till I pointed out that adding a second set of pawls half a tooth over would mean only having to change a pivot point on the lever. Measurements are coming tomorrow, and I will be drawing the new setup in Fusion for them.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the Park Service and Historical Society realizes the opportunity that's being placed in their laps.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 17, 2017, 03:29:37 AM
Think I may need a 50lb sack if popcorn for this one Chris. Looking good on paper so far though.

Bill
You must have a BIG microwave for that much popcorn!!   :Lol:


I just heard from the historical society, the visit from the park service guys from Steamtown has been moved back a week to mid November, so one more week to get the rest of the 3d model in shape before then. The fine details of the engines, drums, clutches, and tracks will have to wait until I get in for my own photos and measurements since the ones I got from other sources don't have any close up shots of them. Still lots I can get done till then.


I am going to be taking a side trip this week to design up a modification to the log advance ratchet mechanism for the water driven sawmill at the museum in Maine. They want to cut the advance distance in half to reduce the stress on the blade, and were going to rework the gears till I pointed out that adding a second set of pawls half a tooth over would mean only having to change a pivot point on the lever. Measurements are coming tomorrow, and I will be drawing the new setup in Fusion for them.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the Park Service and Historical Society realizes the opportunity that's being placed in their laps.

Jim
The historical society is there I think, its been a while to prove myself to them, very understandable since I showed up unknown out of the blue asking for access, but have been able to show enough knowledge and dedication. The park service was called in to do a condition report on the machine, they know nothing of me or my project yet, but coming from Steamtown they are very used to old machines needing restoration. I am providing a detailed set of blueprints for the machine in its current state in return for inside access to a one of a kind machine, which should be a win win for everyone. The shovel is in desperate need of stabilization and restoration, but there is not much chance for much money locally - the local highway guys were just going to slap a coat of bridge paint on it all. Yikes. Thats when the park crew was called. Hopefully this visit along with the plans and model project will stir up some efforts to raise funds, but we all know how governments work, slow and in odd directions usually, but sometimes the right publicity can shove things along. Not often, but sometimes.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ShopShoe on October 17, 2017, 01:48:53 PM
"...the local highway guys were just going to slap a coat of bridge paint on it all."

It's a good thing that at least it has been saved so far. So many times old historical machinery has been destroyed or sold for scrap because some don't have the vision to see beyond the surface appearance.

I hope you can get the access you need. I am following this thread.

--ShopShoe
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 17, 2017, 08:17:15 PM
Some more progress on the dipper boom, made up the bodies for the bucket and bottom lid. Still need to make the mechanism to latch/release the lid - they have a set of levers that pulls a latch rod out to let the lid swing down and empty the dirt/rocks.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/4y3egxasn/Marion_91_v29.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on October 18, 2017, 12:00:48 AM
"...the local highway guys were just going to slap a coat of bridge paint on it all."
I think the Steam Preservation crowd refers to that as "Stuffed and Mounted hung on a Wall"
I hope that is not its fate.
Regards,
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 18, 2017, 12:43:31 AM
"...the local highway guys were just going to slap a coat of bridge paint on it all."
I think the Steam Preservation crowd refers to that as "Stuffed and Mounted hung on a Wall"
I hope that is not its fate.
Regards,
Gerald.
Absolutely. I doubt it will ever be restored to running order, but it really needs to be stabilized at a minimum to prevent its total loss. We need SteamGuyWilly to send us a team like at Beeleigh Mill!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 18, 2017, 03:58:26 PM
Got the dipper bottom and its latch release mechanism modelled up, quite a few levers under there! The release lever is pulled by a rope/chain that pulls a big slide bolt back. Gravity drops the bottom lid, and when the boom swings back for its next bite at the ground, it is tipped up so that gravity swings the lid closed again - neat stuff!

(https://s5.postimg.cc/fryc5juif/Dipper_Boom_And_Bucket_v18.jpg)

Still need to model in the lever near the end of the boom that has the chain up to the release lever in the lid. That lever has another rope that goes back to the cab.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on October 18, 2017, 06:29:19 PM
A little inspiration:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yt3ZQxKl_ZQ

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on October 18, 2017, 08:04:15 PM
Wow! That's a blast from the past!  I loved that book when I was a kid!  Now I'm going to have to go find it and read it tonight :)
Thanks Cletus!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 18, 2017, 08:31:48 PM
Excellent! Something to listen to while I draw parts!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: tvoght on October 18, 2017, 09:42:27 PM
Wow! That's a blast from the past!  I loved that book when I was a kid!  Now I'm going to have to go find it and read it tonight :)
Thanks Cletus!
Kim

Same here. My grandmother kept the book at her house. I must have read it a hundred times. Seeing the book's original illustrations in the video brought on a huge wave of nostalgia. Thanks.

--Tim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 18, 2017, 11:12:01 PM
Way cool. Figured out how to make a chain to go from the release lever on the boom to the lever on the bucket bottom cover using a path-pattern operation. Little by little learning Fusion - 47 features learned, 8214712 left to go...!

(https://s5.postimg.org/dq71ijb87/Dipper_Boom_And_Bucket_v19_-_chain.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 19, 2017, 01:14:26 AM
Added the dipper bucket sheave block, think this completes the dipper boom (they call it the dipper stick in the catalog, but that sounds more like a pretzel rod). The yoke and sheave are on swivels, in this picture they are still at right angles rather than aimed up at the top of the main boom, will do that when I add the chains.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/rcccosndj/Marion_91_v33.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on October 19, 2017, 02:05:07 AM
I'm drooling over those CAD pics!! I don' t think I have seen that level of detail before.

And the proper term is "dip stick". I grew up with earth moving as Dad was with CAT.

Many years ago I went to the coast in California where a guy had a steam shovel that he and his friends fired up a few times a year and dug around the guys sand pit. I actually got to work the thing and dig for about a half hour. They let anyone who wanted to try it out, do it!!!

I don't think there's enough pop corn between here and New Zealand to feed the crown watching this build.

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on October 19, 2017, 02:58:42 AM
I'm drooling over those CAD pics!! I don' t think I have seen that level of detail before.

And the proper term is "dip stick". I grew up with earth moving as Dad was with CAT.

Many years ago I went to the coast in California where a guy had a steam shovel that he and his friends fired up a few times a year and dug around the guys sand pit. I actually got to work the thing and dig for about a half hour. They let anyone who wanted to try it out, do it!!!

I don't think there's enough pop corn between here and New Zealand to feed the crown watching this build.

Pete

Pete.........like you, I'm really impressed with Chris's drawings. He's drawing steam shovel parts and I'd still be back at the "stick figure" stage myself!  :wallbang:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 19, 2017, 03:24:14 AM
Thanks guys, I am definitely getting more comfortable with the 3D software, am going back and forth with the photos, zooming in, taking measurements from them and the laser scans, working my way along from part to part. There are a Lot of parts, but fortunately lots of them are repeated. I'm doing my best to document everything, the drawings are all at full scale for now, will take a copy later and scale it all down for the model, but first priority is a set of plans at full size dimensions. If it was not for the 3d systems, these two projects never would have happened!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on October 19, 2017, 07:35:27 AM
I'm drooling over those CAD pics!! I don' t think I have seen that level of detail before.

And the proper term is "dip stick". I grew up with earth moving as Dad was with CAT.

Many years ago I went to the coast in California where a guy had a steam shovel that he and his friends fired up a few times a year and dug around the guys sand pit. I actually got to work the thing and dig for about a half hour. They let anyone who wanted to try it out, do it!!!

I don't think there's enough pop corn between here and New Zealand to feed the crown watching this build.

Pete

Pete,
Maybe if we all go on a  :popcorn: diet we can eek it out until  Chris gets it fired up & he can happily dig up several fields & we can resume normal excessive consumption!,

Chris,
 Those drawings are just looking splendid! The guys are going to get a great set forvery little cost, kudos to you!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 19, 2017, 10:11:28 PM
Todays update to the 3D model, more details on the bucket yoke block straps (which bump out in the center around the shaft and needed through bolts), and added the swing and hoist chains.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/nlpqzm85z/Marion_91_v35.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/t9w1qjf3b/Marion_91_v35a.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/tzeu2w7x3/Marion_91_v35b.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on October 20, 2017, 12:04:47 AM
Another impressive drawing Chris.

I've been trying to figure out if the main boom raises up and down?

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 20, 2017, 12:18:46 AM
Another impressive drawing Chris.

I've been trying to figure out if the main boom raises up and down?

Jim
No - the main boom is at a fixed angle, it just swings side to side.

The smaller boom pivots up and down as the bucket chain is run in and out. There is also going to be another steam engine on the main boom, just below the smaller one, that drives a small gear that engages a gear rack along the bottom of the smaller boom, which makes it extend in and out from the pivot point. That is where they get the rest of the motion on the bucket - a very different mechanism than they use today on things like backhoes.

This video shows the actions nicely - different model machine, but same style booms:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Pzs7YZICDQ
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on October 20, 2017, 03:14:34 AM
Another impressive drawing Chris.

I've been trying to figure out if the main boom raises up and down?

Jim
No - the main boom is at a fixed angle, it just swings side to side.

The smaller boom pivots up and down as the bucket chain is run in and out. There is also going to be another steam engine on the main boom, just below the smaller one, that drives a small gear that engages a gear rack along the bottom of the smaller boom, which makes it extend in and out from the pivot point. That is where they get the rest of the motion on the bucket - a very different mechanism than they use today on things like backhoes.

This video shows the actions nicely - different model machine, but same style booms:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Pzs7YZICDQ

Great video Chris. Makes total sense now.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on October 20, 2017, 06:38:03 AM
The dip stick engine drives the crowd spur gear which drives a rack gear on the bottom of the dip stick. Dip stick UP to bring the bucket closer to the house, dip stick DOWN to crowd the bucket into the bank.

I just love this stuff!!!   :whoohoo: :pinkelephant: :cartwheel:

 :cheers:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 20, 2017, 03:20:30 PM
The dip stick engine drives the crowd spur gear which drives a rack gear on the bottom of the dip stick. Dip stick UP to bring the bucket closer to the house, dip stick DOWN to crowd the bucket into the bank.

I just love this stuff!!!   :whoohoo: :pinkelephant: :cartwheel:

 :cheers:

Pete
I think you just wrote the first lyrics to the steam shovel song!


Or: the dipsticks connected to the... Rack gear. The rack gears connected to the... spur gear...  :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: wagnmkr on October 20, 2017, 03:59:18 PM
Errr ... Thanks Chris. That song is in my head now :lolb:

Tom
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 20, 2017, 04:04:14 PM
Errr ... Thanks Chris. That song is in my head now :lolb:

Tom


 :whoohoo:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 20, 2017, 06:09:28 PM
Drew up the Shipper gear, shaft, and holder - this is the large gear set that the crowding engine drives to move the dipper handle in and out. I got the name 'Shipper' from Marion's own catalogs of this engine, not sure where that term comes from but that is what they call it. The catalog also calls the dip stick the 'dipper handle', so those are the terms I am going to use from now on, different terms were used in different eras and regions but that is the terminology that the manufacturer used.
Anyway, new images:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/k1844jm07/Marion_91_v39.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/rtyrwik9j/Marion_91_v39a.jpg)

This completes, I think, the turntable and boom assembly, except for the crowd engine itselft, which will sit just behind the dipper shaft. That will be modelled up later on, after I get in to get more detailed photos next month. Same for the track assemblies, the photos I have now do not show enough internal details.

For now, I think I will move on to measuring up and sketching the main drive gears and drums inside the cab. Also need to prep the sub for a meet at the pool this weekend...

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dave Otto on October 20, 2017, 07:44:10 PM
Hi Chris

Everything in coming along nicely, Fusion sure does a nice job on the chains! Do the gears have an involute tooth form? in the pictures they appear to be more flat?
Not that is matters but I do like the pictures better without the grid, I find it kind of distracting.

Keep up the great work!
Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 20, 2017, 08:01:43 PM
Hi Chris

Everything in coming along nicely, Fusion sure does a nice job on the chains! Do the gears have an involute tooth form? in the pictures they appear to be more flat?
Not that is matters but I do like the pictures better without the grid, I find it kind of distracting.

Keep up the great work!
Dave
They are an involute tooth, at this resolution that does not show up well. The rack teeth are flat sided though.  The teeth on the original were some involute form, though they are so worn its hard to tell! They got a LOT of use by the looks of things, several decades in the quarry will do that.

The grid is there for the ground plane by default, I have not bothered turning that off for the captures since it is buried down a layer or so in the menus.  Better you don't get too distracted or you will... oops, you just crashed... oh well!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 20, 2017, 11:52:13 PM
I started going through the photos and other materials to figure out the gear trains that come from the cranksshafts and to the chain drums and tracks. One thing I had was a set of partial plans that someone else had started about 10 years ago.

Perfect argument for not trusting others plans, and going directly to the source material where possible: The number of teeth he had on several of the gears was wrong, and found one gear on the back side of the driving gear, should have been on the front side - explains why the end of the gear train I came up with (which he only had the first couple of gears shown) was not reaching the front axle!

Once past that, I now have a diagram of all the gears for the swing, hoist, and travel gears. Lots of stuff in there, including brake bands and drum clutches. Still need to figure out where the clutch is for the travel gears, which are driven from the main hoist drum shaft. It might be in the drum assembly, or later on in the gear train - need to do more digging in the photos, may need to read through the Marion patent documents.

Hmmm, took one more look in the Marion catalog, and found this paragraph:

"THE MARION PROPELLING SHAFT
THIS shaft, like others subjected to hard duty, is of the best hammered steel. It is attached underneath
to the car frame by two steel bearings secured by suitable bolt and shear plates to the
center sills. It is driven by a pinion on the hoisting drum shaft in mesh with the propelling gear,
which is riveted to a long sleeve casting keyed to the shaft. The other end of the sleeve casing forms
one member of a jaw clutch, and this engages a similar jaw cast into the side of a double pocket sheave,
wdiich is bronze bushed and loosely mounted on the shaft. This clutch is operated by a lever within
easy reach of the engineer.
"

That is a huge clue as to how it works, now need to track that down in the photos.... The catalogs are a incredible source of information.

EDIT: Found it! There is an idler shaft in the middle of the travel gear train, with a small spur gear and a larger gear driven from the previous shaft. The shaft between appears to be in two parts, once running inside the other. Where it steps down from the larger diameter side, there is a 3-section socket, looks like the 3 jaws of a chuck. On the smaller diameter side, there is a mating set of 3 sections on a slider, with a lever that will push it in and out of the other section to engage/disengage the drive. Hardly a smooth transition, imagine it was a heavy CLUNK as it engaged, but it was only done at slow speed when the machine was moved into a new location to dig. I'll get it drawn up and post some diagrams....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on October 21, 2017, 03:44:53 AM
Good work Sherlock!  :ThumbsUp: Looking forward to the drawings so I can understand what you're talking about.  ;)

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 21, 2017, 03:53:30 AM
Good work Sherlock!  :ThumbsUp: Looking forward to the drawings so I can understand what you're talking about.  ;)

Jim
Yup, will post drawings and a picture of the real thing, simple when you see it, hard to describe. Picture, words, 1000...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 21, 2017, 01:50:02 PM
Found this diagram of the type of jaw clutch that the travel gears use on the Marion to engage/disengage the power from the hoist engine to the tracks.

(http://nptel.ac.in/courses/116102012/clutches/images/fig1.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on October 21, 2017, 05:06:53 PM
Good old dog clutch....

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 22, 2017, 06:54:48 PM
Spent the last couple of days designing up the gear trains for the slew, hoist, and travel mechanisms. Quite a few parts in there, here is an overview picture from the front right corner:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/53vi9ifuv/Gear_Train_v22.jpg)
The forward set of shafts/gears project down through the cab floor and between the center floor frames. Here it is from the back right corner:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/nkpwzydp3/Gear_Train_v23.jpg)
The slew engine will sit behind the gear train in the center, and has the first spur gear in the lower left in the second picture on the end of its crankshaft. The hoist engine cylinders sit on the floor, one on either side of the vertical shaft support blocks. The third shaft from the back is the crankshaft for those engines. That shaft drives the forward set of gears, which drive both the hoist drum and the travel shaft that goes to the tracks.
The hoist drum has a clutch mechanism in the side to engage/release it from the shaft, and also has a brake band on the other end. To engage the drive shaft, there is a dog clutch on one of the lower shafts, shown in the next picture. The handle that moves the clutch will connect up to a lever in the cab, once I trace how that routes. There is a spline the clutch rides on to transfer the power. The spur gear on the other half of the clutch free-wheels on the shaft, and has a ring that it butts up against on the other side.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6pas0xsjb/Gear_Train_v23_-_Clutch.jpg)

EDIT: Corrected the clutch dog image.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 22, 2017, 11:14:07 PM
Added the u-joint couplings that take the final travel shaft out to the tracks - they are the things that look like sideways oilcans on either side of the forwardmost gear. Getting quite crowded under the frame!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/okpen8fd3/Marion_91_v46.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 23, 2017, 06:18:40 PM
Getting to the point where more 3D modelling will have wait for the mid-November visit to the shovel where I can get up close and inside it. Some more detailing on the drive train is done, and I opened the side doors of the cab to allow seeing what is inside. I probably can do some on the outside parts of the steering gear, maybe the outline of the boiler. Other than that I need more measurements from up close.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/kic5trunb/Marion_91_v48a.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/hbhma5hx3/Marion_91_v48b.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/g97frm6tj/Marion_91_v48c.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/tq4eahouv/Marion_91_v48d.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 25, 2017, 02:06:22 AM
Yesterday and today I got a lot done on the last parts that I have good pictures and measurements for - the rear steering mechanism that holds the two rear tracks and allows them to be steered side to side. The tracks mount where the original railroad wheel trucks did, so there are two remaining side bolster blocks that no longer touch anything.

The tracks are steered by a fourth steam engine (which will be just inside the open doorway) that came in the track 'kit' from Marion, which turns a large gear wheel (pink arrow) which turns a worm gear in a box (orange arrow), which drives another long worm gear (red arrow) running across the frames which moves a follower (green arrow) on the end of the heavy arm that comes up from the rear track axle assembly (blue arrow). Lots of connections! The follower is held in a bracket on a large post that can move in and out of the end of the arm, so as it traverses it can handle the extra distance to the worm gear.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fkc4ikstj/Marion_91_v55.jpg)
The large gear (pink arrow) still needs to have the spokes added to it.

Also in this picture you can see the end of the long backstay rods that go up to the top of the A-frame at the front boom - they come down through the cab and attach to the large cross beam just above the track axle assembly. Also, note that the track axle (blue arrow) is itself on an fore/aft pivot bar, so that the tracks can rock side to side as they go over uneven ground. The rear tracks are close together, but the front ones are spread wide apart, so the whole machine is balanced more like a three-wheeler.

One part not modelled is the set of worm/spur gears inside the box at the orange arrow. I need to go read up on worm gears again to figure out a plausible size for those two gears, since they are inside the case I cannot count teeth or measure diameters.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 26, 2017, 09:23:34 PM
The last couple days have been spent working on the boiler assembly in Fusion360 - I think this is as far as I can take the 3D model until the visit inside the real machine in two weeks, when I can get detail pics and measurements of the engines, tracks, piping, and control linkages.

Here are the boiler and water tanks - I left the front left door open to show the fire tubes in view in the smokebox:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/c256jblef/Boiler_v24a.jpg)
The lower bracket under the front of the boiler goes through the floor and bolts to the underside of the main frame rails. Think they did it that way since the tanks would have gotten in the way of the bolts if they had used a cross plate on top of the frames, but not sure. There may be an ash chute under the firebox with another bracket set like this front lower one - another thing I need to see in person, the photos I got from the historical society don't show that angle. If there is a chute and more brackets, then it would make sense, so the entire assembly could be set on the ground during assembly.
Back view of the boiler:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/cewkpij3r/Boiler_v24b.jpg)
The plate down the side is where the boiler shell was rolled and butted up against itself - common on these early boilers.
Here is a view through the door, showing the front of the boiler and the backstay from the boom going througn the front support.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/go1aroenb/Marion_91_v61a.jpg)
And a view from underneath, showing the support bracket attaching to the frame rails, just in front of all the rear track steering mechanism. LOTS of parts on this model!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/i32vgev5z/Marion_91_v61b.jpg)
So, that will be all the updates for a couple of weeks, will pick it up again after the visit to the machine (I have to wait for the park service team to come up, and piggy-backing on that visit - the shovel is fenced off and not open to visitors normally).
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 26, 2017, 10:31:32 PM
Okay, so one more update...  Something I assumed that Fusion360 had but I had never experimented with is the ability to animate the views of the model and save out the video. After a little experimenting I got something going with it - bit choppy but it works, will have to go through more of thier tutorials on it. Anyway, here is a flyby around the current model - no tracks or engines yet, but the rest is there. Now just need to find someone with a REALLY BIG 3d printer...!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6otT_A_t6CI

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: wagnmkr on October 26, 2017, 11:19:58 PM
Lovely drawing Chris ... I sent you an email through here.

Tom
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on October 26, 2017, 11:30:35 PM
Hi Chris,

Can you imagine the brilliant men and women that worked on the original design, what they would say if they saw your work.

Now I cannot wait to see you get started on the first parts.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 26, 2017, 11:59:08 PM
Hi Chris,

Can you imagine the brilliant men and women that worked on the original design, what they would say if they saw your work.

Now I cannot wait to see you get started on the first parts.

Have a great day,
Thomas
I can't imagine how many erasers I would have gone through by now!!  :Lol:


Probably will be cutting real metal by the end of November, should be a really fun build!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 27, 2017, 12:00:13 AM
Lovely drawing Chris ... I sent you an email through here.

Tom
Got it, hopefully the reply made it.   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: b.lindsey on October 27, 2017, 01:11:15 AM
Coming along well Chris. Looking forward to some chipmaking on this one.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on October 27, 2017, 05:43:17 AM
That's some mighty fine CAD work you do there Chris!  And a lot of it.  I'll bet your tools are getting jealous of all the time your spending with the computer these days  :LittleDevil:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on October 27, 2017, 08:55:47 AM
Hi Chris,
Just WOW on the CAD....most impressed!!

On the 3d printer, I had an add come up last night for one that has a 1 meter cube print area (volume??) didn't go & look but you might need a deep pocket for it. Mind you at the way prices are dropping it might not be to bad...a relative term!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 27, 2017, 01:50:31 PM
That's some mighty fine CAD work you do there Chris!  And a lot of it.  I'll bet your tools are getting jealous of all the time your spending with the computer these days  :LittleDevil:
Kim

I'd rather be making chips than pixels myself, but have gotten the tools for a spin occasionally lately with parts for the RC models and such!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 27, 2017, 11:33:16 PM
That's some mighty fine CAD work you do there Chris!  And a lot of it.  I'll bet your tools are getting jealous of all the time your spending with the computer these days  :LittleDevil:
Kim

I'd rather be making chips than pixels myself, but have gotten the tools for a spin occasionally lately with parts for the RC models and such!
Ahhh, feeling much better, got to make some swarf turning out some air hose fittings, getting ready to run the engines all together at Cabin Fever..
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Mcgyver on October 28, 2017, 12:27:08 AM
very impressive.  I saw one (tracked style) at the Milton Steam show a few years and thought it would make an excellent model.  My hats off to you for doing instead of thinking about it :)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 28, 2017, 02:19:50 AM
very impressive.  I saw one (tracked style) at the Milton Steam show a few years and thought it would make an excellent model.  My hats off to you for doing instead of thinking about it :)
Not familiar with that show, just looked it up, have to see if I can get there next year, only a few hours from here!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Mcgyver on October 28, 2017, 04:04:51 PM
Not familiar with that show, just looked it up, have to see if I can get there next year, only a few hours from here!

If you can, its an amazing collection of steam and mechanical things - 2 shovels were there last time I went as well as a lot working traction engines, antique tractors, bulldozers etc. 

I don't like when people hijack threads, but since the subject is old shovels, I thought you might like some photos from the show (4 years ago).  The covered one I thought would make a great model - it might have been Mike Mulligan's lol.  afaik its operating and not to far from me.....it's just I'm scared to take on another project until some of the 500 current ones get done :)

(https://i.imgur.com/InPxlMk.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/IniQQAD.jpg)







Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 28, 2017, 07:51:42 PM
Great pics of those 2 shovels, thanks! I've added that show to my list, hope to make the next one. Surprised they have room there, thought Toronto had overrun everything nearby with skyscrapers and traffic!

That covered one (red/green cab) looks to be an Erie, model 30? Great machines!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 30, 2017, 07:06:01 PM
While waiting for the visit to the Marion shovel in a couple weeks, I've been working on some other things (started carving a steersman for the Lombard hauler, pics when that is farther along), and also doing some more research in to the Marion shovel mechanisms. Today I was reading through more of the original patents from Marion (most are under the names George W King, Charles B King, and H J Barnhart, the head brains behind Marion Steam Shovel). A lot of them are about general ways the frames are made, the shapes of the buckets, that sort of thing.

Two of them are going to be VERY helpful on this model - one details how the steam-operated clutch band works on the hoisting drum, the other shows the inner workings of the slew and crowd engines (which are nearly identical). The drawings in the patents match both the pictures in their #50 catalog and also the pictures of the real things that I have. With the cross-section drawings and descriptions in detail of each part and what they do, I can definitely 3D model up those parts (still need some in-person measurements of them to get the overall sizes) even though the real machine is not available to be disassembled. Excellent when research pays off like this!!   ;D

Here are a couple of the drawings from the original patents, there are a bunch more but these show the kinds of detail they have:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/itia0k7tj/US666348_2_-_Hoist_Clutch.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/9lq1jut1j/US666348_1_-_Hoist_Clutch_2.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/uim9oje7r/US842465_2_-_Slew_Engine_1.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/nfee8x12f/US842465_4_-_Slew_Engine_2.jpg)
Just goes to show - you can never beat access to original documents, and research can pay off (not always, but its worth the try!)
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 30, 2017, 09:55:21 PM
Been reading through those two patents, the hoist drum clutch is probably do-able on the model, only tricky bit is the rotating coupling for the steam supply pipe but that should be do-able with an o-ring seal. The pressure it has to hold is low, it only needs to be able to move the lever pulling the clutch band in. There are all-mechanical options as well.

For the slew/crowd engine, that is one complicated casting for the valve chambers!!  :insane:

What they did was use just a single eccentric per cylinder for the valves, and had a lever that moves a central piston valve back and forth, at one end it connects the steam/exhaust passages in one order, at the other end the passages are connected the opposite way, and the slide D-valves in the steam chests have a hollow passage for the gases in the center, and another open one in the bottom - very clever, I need to come up with some diagrams for it to explain it better.

The advantages of thier arrangement are several:
 - the throttle can be left wide open, since the reversing lever has a graduated set of openings that allow the engine to be run slow to fast, depending how far in one direction the lever is moved.
- in the center position, there is no steam flow to the cylinders at all, stopping the engine.
- for the slew engine, the center valve length is set up so that in the middle (stopped) position, both cylinders are connected to exhaust, so the engine freewheels, allowing the turntable holding the boom to drift to a stop
- for the crowd engine, the center valve length is set up so that in the stopped position, the cylinders are set so neither goes to exhaust, deadlocking the engine so it holds its position, keeping the dipper boom in position.

For the model, this setup would require a very small, very complicated set of passages, which may not be possible to duplicate the way they did it. I think it is going to require some sketches and a simplified version, pretty sure its been done on other model engines, just need to find an example. One that I can think of is that wonderful Monitor engine (not the simpler one some of us have built), which has a plate that swaps the steam lines somehow. Anyone know of an example engine that does this - uses a seperate valve to do the reversing via the passages, rather than depending on a linkage from the crankshaft (as in a Stephenson or walschaerts setup)?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Stuart on October 31, 2017, 07:26:11 AM
Quote
The advantages of thier arrangement are several:
 - the throttle can be left wide open, since the reversing lever has a graduated set of openings that allow the engine to be run slow to fast, depending how far in one direction the lever is moved.
- in the center position, there is no steam flow to the cylinders at all, stopping the engine.
- for the slew engine, the center valve length is set up so that in the middle (stopped) position, both cylinders are connected to exhaust, so the engine freewheels, allowing the turntable holding the boom to drift to a stop


Chris that’s how full size loco’s are operated

Regulator wide open and speed controlled with the regulator

But 5 inch and above models can also be driven that way when the track is long enough it’s a very nice way to run a loco when you are using the steam expansively much smoother

You are doing very well in your research into your new project  got plenty of  :popcorn: in

Stuart
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 31, 2017, 12:15:06 PM
Quote
The advantages of thier arrangement are several:
 - the throttle can be left wide open, since the reversing lever has a graduated set of openings that allow the engine to be run slow to fast, depending how far in one direction the lever is moved.
- in the center position, there is no steam flow to the cylinders at all, stopping the engine.
- for the slew engine, the center valve length is set up so that in the middle (stopped) position, both cylinders are connected to exhaust, so the engine freewheels, allowing the turntable holding the boom to drift to a stop


Chris that’s how full size loco’s are operated

Regulator wide open and speed controlled with the regulator

But 5 inch and above models can also be driven that way when the track is long enough it’s a very nice way to run a loco when you are using the steam expansively much smoother

You are doing very well in your research into your new project  got plenty of  :popcorn: in

Stuart
On these engines they took that one step further and combined the regulator with the reversing valve, all small enough to fit inside the engine block. Quite ingenious!


In order to really understand the passages, I think I will model them as a negative, model the passages as solids with no block around them, like the casting cores would be. Should give a better idea of how it all works, and will then use that to cut the outer block in the 3d model. In looking at the patent drawings, I'm amazed that they could think this one up, let alone cast it!

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 01, 2017, 02:52:13 PM
I've started designing up the slew/crowd engines (same engine except for the gear on the crankshaft) based on the drawings and information in the patent from 1907, which has amazingly detailed cross-section views and descriptions of all the parts and passages. So far I have the cylinders and outer shell of the steam chest/reverse valve chest.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/w4y5o0asn/Slew_Engine_v26.jpg)
The next step is the really complex one - going through the cross section drawings one by one and piecing in the internal passages and ports. The cross sections look to have all I need to do that, its just that there are so many of them - it has the ability to swap the steam input and exhaust output feeds to both cylinders. Maybe by the end I'll have some clue as to how they cast this beast, right now I think its impossible without cast-iron-eating-elves!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 01, 2017, 08:27:37 PM
Some more done on the valve chest passages. Here is a cutaway view showing the slots down from the valve slider face to the cylinders:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wvvh6z4yf/Slew_Engine_v37_-_Passages_2.jpg)
and a side view showing those passages as well as the ones inside the valve slider:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bm7uw4gxz/Slew_Engine_v37_-_Passages.jpg)
The slider is in red, and rather than just the typical rectangular recess in the base, it has two internal passages. There is the half-round one in the base, and also a curved slot that runs through the middle. This is part of the clever bit in this engine, where they can swap the input steam and output exhaust flows. The slider connects pairs of passages - two to the cylinder, plus the normal central one and a new one at the left. Those two are what change 'meaning' depending on the setting of the throttle/reverse valve which is in the center between the cylinders (have not modeled that part yet). There are a bunch more passages that will connect these up with that valve, will start modeling them next. Remember, this is not my design, I am drawing the engines from the Marion patent drawings, as they existed 100+ years ago.
Here is a view under the bottom of the slider, showing its passages:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/58irsz6xz/Slew_Engine_v38_-_slider.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on November 02, 2017, 12:39:41 AM
 :happyreader:

 :popcorn: :popcorn:

 :cheers:

Pete  (with apologies to Marvin)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 02, 2017, 01:29:25 AM
:happyreader:

 :popcorn: :popcorn:

 :cheers:

Pete  (with apologies to Marvin)

Thanks Pete!

I'll take the liberty of translating for him:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
  "Avidly reading along in your thread!"

  "Like watching a good movie, need lots of popcorn!"

  "Cheers!"
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

 :facepalm2:

I find that these cutaway views allow for about an hours work at a time, after that the visualization circuits overheat and I need to go do something else for half a day, then I can come back and do some more. The information is all there in the patent, and I am blown away by how many wrap-around shapes he was able to design in the days of pen/pencil and paper alone. Probably a fair bet that he built up a number of wood-block models as well, but some people don't need that either. Quite an impressive design, getting that many features into such a small space, but keeping it all robust enough that these things would run for decades with minimal repairs and parts replacement. The main wear item in the valving is the spool slider down the center of the engine, which ran in a sleeve inserted into the casting so that they could replace the sleeve and slider if they wore out.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: joe d on November 02, 2017, 04:05:02 PM
Chris:

Following along with great interest, this promises to be another good'un.

You could combine several of your interests, here's a photo of a Marion dragline
on a barge dredging the harbour  in Halifax Nova Scotia in 1910...

would provide enough depth of water for a submarine...

(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee257/240283/Marion%20dragline_zpsyjw9ruw4.png) (http://s235.photobucket.com/user/240283/media/Marion%20dragline_zpsyjw9ruw4.png.html)

Cheers, Joe
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 02, 2017, 06:32:22 PM
Chris:

Following along with great interest, this promises to be another good'un.

You could combine several of your interests, here's a photo of a Marion dragline
on a barge dredging the harbour  in Halifax Nova Scotia in 1910...

would provide enough depth of water for a submarine...

(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee257/240283/Marion%20dragline_zpsyjw9ruw4.png) (http://s235.photobucket.com/user/240283/media/Marion%20dragline_zpsyjw9ruw4.png.html)

Cheers, Joe
Thats a great picture!

Hmmm, dig a pond in the back yard with it for the submarine, then if the sub gets stuck, use it to grab the hull...!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 02, 2017, 06:38:45 PM
I think I have the passages all mapped out correctly in the slew engine, and I made up a set of screen captures showing them from several angles. Was just about to post them, but it looks like PostImage's website has thrown a rod, and I cannot get in to upload the pictures. Fortunately their servers appear to still be serving out pics that were already uploaded.

So, I'll try again this evening and get the pictures up....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on November 02, 2017, 10:53:02 PM
Given that it's difficult to make a small engine run slowly, the gear ratios may need to change from the prototype in order to have the shovel move in a realistic manner.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 02, 2017, 11:15:24 PM
Okay, PostImage is back fully alive again, here we go on the internal passages...

I have been 3D modeling up the slew and crowd engines (same design), based on the cross-section drawings in the patent from 1907 that Marion filed on it. Quite a complex little beast, with the forward/reverse and the throttle all controlled by one central valve, and it only has one eccentric/valve per cylinder, keeping it a very compact unit. The central valve switches the steam and exhaust back and forth between passages, as well as slowly allows more steam through as it is moved farther in each direction. It is a hollow spool valve with the incoming steam coming in the center, going out either end into the passages in the block. It rides inside a sleeve with patterns of holes that allow more steam past as the valve moves farther along.

Here is what the outside of the cylinder block looks like:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ko58c34rr/Slew_Engine_v49_-_Cylinder_Block.jpg)
and with some of the outer skins removed:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8m9uhyqef/Slew_Engine_v49_-_Passages_5.jpg)
To help me track the passages, I did a bunch of color coding. In the previous image, the red is the valve slider, and the green is the block containing the 5 (yes 5) passages, two to the ends of the cylinders, three to carry steam/exhaust around. On the top plate, exposed in that picture, the outer two rectangular ports in the center section always carry steam into the steam chests, to keep the valve sliders pressed onto the valve faces. The inner three ports swap between carrying steam and exhaust, depending where the slider is.
In this next picture, there is more of the structure removed, better showing the valve sliders, and the sleeve (with all the holes) that the central control valve slides in showing.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/yhtl15kif/Slew_Engine_v49_-_Passages_4.jpg)
In the rest of the pictures, I inverted what you are seeing - I took a solid block inside the engine, and used the structure of the engine to cut away anyplace where a wall or part was, so what you are seeing now are the passages and ports, usually empty space, converted to solid.
More color coding here. The purple at the front is one set of passages, the brown behind it is another, and the dark blue behind that is the third. The yellow and white are the passages under the steam chest that go to the cylinder ends. The lighter blue/purple arcs over the sides are the passages inside the valve slider, and the top of the purple under it, shaped like a semi-circle, is the area in the recess on the bottom of the valve slider, which normall would do all the work, but in this engine it only does half, the upper semicircle does the rest.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rrd3rqcs7/Slew_Engine_v49_-_Passages1.jpg)
Here is a view from the back corner:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5ffaybit3/Slew_Engine_v49_-_Passages_3.jpg)
and a view from underneath:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/en7jf0xl3/Slew_Engine_v49_-_Passages_2.jpg)
As you can see, the different colored passages wind around each other, but do not touch each other. Depending on where the central control valve is, the steam and exhaust will make thier way through the passages in the body of the engine, and the two passages inside the valve sliders will communicate to the yellow/white ports into the cylinders.

Quite a mechanism, isn't it!   :insane:

These shapes are not something that I made up, they are how things are shaped in the actual engine, as close as I could come to duplicating the patent drawings into three dimensions. The large curves on the bottom of it all are where things wrap around the tops of the cylinders.

Now, for those of you that do casting, can you give me ANY clue as to how the heck they sand cast this sucker? I know that there are ways to insert pre-formed pieces of sand to make ports, but this many layers? Remember, this engine has 10" pistons, and the cylinders are about 14.4" long, so this whole thing is pretty big.

For the model, which will be somewhere in the neighborhood of 1:12 to 1:20 scale, doing ports that duplicate this exactly is impossible (at least for me, unless I can train some tiny elves to use teensy angle grinders to carve it from solid). I have, however, had some ideas on duplicating most of the functions of this using a simpler set of ports, and with spool valves on the cylinders as well as in the central section - just have that sketched on paper so far, need to convert it to a 3D model, then will share that in a future post. I think that in that form I can keep the same outer size of the engine, in a form that I can whittle out on the lathe/mill from a solid chunk. Maybe.

Whew. Been an intense several days working on this, I need chocolate chip cookies!!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 02, 2017, 11:18:19 PM
Given that it's difficult to make a small engine run slowly, the gear ratios may need to change from the prototype in order to have the shovel move in a realistic manner.
Thats very possible, I did change the ones on the Lombard for that reason. On this one, the ratios are already fairly high, a lot is going to depend on what scale I end up at for the model. The gear boxes are big enough that changing the ratios a bit wont be noticeable in the model. For the initial plans, with everything done at full 1:1 scall to document the real machine, I am sticking with the actual tooth counts (at least as close as I can get, may be off a tooth or two on some of the ones hidden deep in the bowels).

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 02, 2017, 11:20:19 PM
Oh, and forgot to point out in the last picture - there are two pipes coming out the top of the engine, the upper one is the steam input pipe from the boiler, the one lower down closer to the centerline of the cylinders is the exhaust output pipe.

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on November 02, 2017, 11:20:39 PM
Neat stuff!!

 :popcorn:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 02, 2017, 11:22:17 PM
Neat stuff!!

 :popcorn:

Pete
I think you need one of these in the plane. Its very compact, and the reversing mechanism will let you parallel park in the hanger!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: MJM460 on November 03, 2017, 11:57:47 AM
Hi Chris, amazing valve and port design.  I don't know how you figured it out, let alone the original designers.  I suppose it developed in stages.

Could you make them by cutting plates matching the vertical slices, stacking, pinning for alignment and silver soldering them all together?

MJM460
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 03, 2017, 12:16:50 PM
Hi Chris, amazing valve and port design.  I don't know how you figured it out, let alone the original designers.  I suppose it developed in stages.

Could you make them by cutting plates matching the vertical slices, stacking, pinning for alignment and silver soldering them all together?

MJM460
Making it from slices might work, at least down to a certain scale. Getting a seal all the way through on all those surfaces would be a big challenge though. I have worked out a version that just uses spool valves on all three positions that I think is practical for model sizes, need to loft it up in 3d to be sure it can be made. As usual with a spool valve model, there would be cross passages to drill, then have the end of the hole plugged. I will post that version once I get it drawn.


For drawing up the real engine, it was all taken from the patent images, which included 11 different outside and cross section views, very complete and incredibly well done. The genius behind it appears to be Charles B King, who had quite a range of inventions. His brother George and Harry Barnhart were the founders of Marion Steam Shovel.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dreeves on November 03, 2017, 04:58:39 PM
Chris, Could it be 3d printed then investment cast?  Looking forward to seeing completed parts.

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 03, 2017, 05:48:48 PM
Chris, Could it be 3d printed then investment cast?  Looking forward to seeing completed parts.

Dave
Seems like that would work. From what I've seen on prices on Shapeways, it would be pretty expensive though. They do have restrictions on interior hollow spaces, since they need to be able to get the powders out when they print the form that they cast from. Could handle that with some plugs, I guess.

I really wonder how they did it on the original machine!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on November 03, 2017, 09:50:08 PM
I would expect that the cores and molds were made up of multiple, but simpler parts, and then glued together during the final mold assembly.  There were/are recipes for making baked sand cores using not much more than flour, water, molasses and sand.  The cores for modern inlet manifold passages and other complex parts are made up of many small parts glued together in a jig.  This assembly is then placed in the mold, which forms the outside of the part, and the part cast in metal.

If you want to get an appreciation for the art of sand casting, check out this one about 2-3 minutes into the video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRsYIiUxZeQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRsYIiUxZeQ)

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 03, 2017, 09:58:47 PM
I would expect that the cores and molds were made up of multiple, but simpler parts, and then glued together during the final mold assembly.  There were/are recipes for making baked sand cores using not much more than flour, water, molasses and sand.  The cores for modern inlet manifold passages and other complex parts are made up of many small parts glued together in a jig.  This assembly is then placed in the mold, which forms the outside of the part, and the part cast in metal.

If you want to get an appreciation for the art of sand casting, check out this one about 2-3 minutes into the video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRsYIiUxZeQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRsYIiUxZeQ)

Don
Nice video!

I didn't know that they could piece up the mould cores like that, gotta be a real art to it.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 03, 2017, 11:03:16 PM
Well, I think the 3D model of the full-size slew/crowd engine is complete - got the valve eccentrics/rods, and piston/conrods, crankshaft all in. Here are some pictures of the engine and some cutaways:

(https://s5.postimg.cc/x78spq07b/Slew_Engine_v71a.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/w4ym76p3r/Slew_Engine_v71b.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/avazwcgiv/Slew_Engine_v71c.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/6yxo0d393/Slew_Engine_v71d.jpg)

Next on the list is a mock-up of the passages/valves for an attempt at a simpler version that will work at small model scale, but first a few days away from the computer to let the little grey cells recover from this one!!

 :cheers:

EDIT: and could not resist seeing how it looks on the main boom. Still need to make the spur gears for either side, and get the engine placement tweaked so the gears mesh correctly, but looks pretty impressive up there!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8s0komj9z/Marion_91_v71.jpg)

 
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on November 04, 2017, 02:22:49 AM
hi ,its good to be able to get all those drawings !  and looks like a major build project... :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 04, 2017, 02:53:01 AM
Well, I think the 3D model of the full-size slew/crowd engine is complete - got the valve eccentrics/rods, and piston/conrods, crankshaft all in. Here are some pictures of the engine and some cutaways:

Next on the list is a mock-up of the passages/valves for an attempt at a simpler version that will work at small model scale, but first a few days away from the computer to let the little grey cells recover from this one!!

 :cheers:

EDIT: and could not resist seeing how it looks on the main boom. Still need to make the spur gears for either side, and get the engine placement tweaked so the gears mesh correctly, but looks pretty impressive up there!
(https://s5.postimg.org/8s0komj9z/Marion_91_v71.jpg)
Very interesting Chris. I guess this was a really specialized engine. Back then, I guess you couldn't just go on-line and order a "Binford 80-00-80 Steam Engine", bolt that sucker to the boom and go to work!  ;)

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 04, 2017, 12:25:19 PM
hi ,its good to be able to get all those drawings !  and looks like a major build project... :popcorn:
Definitely going to be a long term build, much more to this one than the Lombard, with two pairs of tracks, the boom assembly, and four twin cylinder engines, plus all the frame and cab. Going to be fun!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 04, 2017, 12:34:17 PM

Very interesting Chris. I guess this was a really specialized engine. Back then, I guess you couldn't just go on-line and order a "Binford 80-00-80 Steam Engine", bolt that sucker to the boom and go to work!  ;)

Jim
Oooh, good question, when did Binford start?!?  :Lol:


Marion makes a big deal about the controls for these engines, all set up with a single lever to control both speed and direction, simplifying the job for the operator. The hoist engine and the hoist drum clutch are also controlled by a single valve, that engages the clutch first, then feeds steam in increasing amounts to the engine. At the off position, the valve also connects the cylinder ports directly to the exhaust, so it can freewheel when lowering the bucket, using the brakes to slow it if needed. All these things let the operator control everything with fewer levers than earlier models. Very clever stuff.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 04, 2017, 03:18:12 PM
Chris--You're getting pretty handy with the 3d modelling. I know how steep the learning curve is. You are doing nice work.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 04, 2017, 05:15:20 PM
Chris--You're getting pretty handy with the 3d modelling. I know how steep the learning curve is. You are doing nice work.---Brian
Thanks Brian - For this type of modeling I am going pretty quickly with it, have not spent much time on the 'mesh' side of the application for more organic shapes yet. It is so much quicker and easier for me to do these designs this way than with pencil/paper, which I still use for quick little parts to get dimensions figured out for making a standalone part right away. They still have some bugs to work out in the sketching part, but that is improving pretty quickly too.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 05, 2017, 07:18:54 PM
Okay, bunch of sketching in Fusion360, a few crashes of the application and resketching those bits, and I have a slightly simplified version of Marion's slew/crowd engines that I can build at a model scale. I arranged things so that the cross passages can all be drilled through the sides of a large block, and the ends plugged up to make them internal-only passages. Also, the center piston valve won't have the series of interlocking and varying size holes that the original had, so it will not act as well as a throttle like the original, but should have some throttle effect as well as controlling forward/reverse motion. It should also be possible to machine the valve assemblies as a seperate unit from the cylinders, and mate them up with a flat face above the cylinders to bolt to.

So, here are the concept drawings from Fusion. Starting off, here is an outside view with all the blocks in place, except for the cylinders below and the valve chest covers above. The green block in the center contains the forward/revese/throttle piston valve, the pistons are in blue below, and the steam input pipe is in red at the right, exhaust pipe above it.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/i4x0y9z4n/Reversing_Piston_Valve_Concept_v18_-_Overview.jpg)
Here is a cutaway view, with the steam chest on the near side removed, as well as one half of the center valve block, to show the internals:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5qa8xyurr/Reversing_Piston_Valve_Concept_v18_-_Center_Cutaway.jpg)
Now, on to straight-on side views of the center valve to show its actions. The center piston valve controls which passage that the steam and exhaust flow through to the steam chests above each piston. The piston valve has its center cut away to connect two ports, and the piston is hollow (with ports to take the steam around the end of the control rod at the left) to allow steam to reach both ends of the valve for two reasons - 1, to keep the pressure from pushing the valve to the left, and 2, to allow steam to flow to the port on the left when the valve is to the right.
In this picture, the valve is in the left-most position, connecting port A with the exhaust, and port B with the steam. This will let the engine run in one direction. The grey circle to the right of the piston is a passageway to the steam chests that always lets steam in around the slide valves, more on that later.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/lbrkhxm5j/Reversing_Piston_Valve_Concept_v18_-_Control_Valve_Left.jpg)
Next, here is the control valve in the center position, which does not connect either port A or B to anything, which is the 'throttle off' position, which locks the piston in place to keep the engine from freewheeling, and keeping the boom in position.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/54la1mf2f/Reversing_Piston_Valve_Concept_v18_-_Control_Valve_Center.jpg)

Here is the control valve to the rightmost position, where it connects port A to steam (via the hollow center of the piston slider), and port B to the exhaust. This makes the engine run in the opposite direction as it did in the leftmost position.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5essl1e9z/Reversing_Piston_Valve_Concept_v18_-_Control_Valve_Right.jpg)

Okay, now over to the steam chest above the cylinders. Both work the same, so I'll just show one of them. Rather than a typical D-valve slider with just one chamber underneath, Marion's engine used a slider that had the bottom chamber plus a passageway above it that could connect two more passages. Thiers was a nice rounded set of shapes, to make something I can machine in a very small size, I've made it a rectangular set of shapes, with the inner passageway drilled then plugged on the right side.
Notice also that the chamber around the valve is filled with steam, though it is only used to push the slider down, this steam never goes into the engine. It gets there through that side passage from the center valve that I mentioned earlier. One thing that I wonder about on the original engine is where any condensation in that are goes, they didn't seem to give a place for it to drain to. When I get in to see the real engine I want to look for a drain cock in that area.
So, this diagram is showing the slide valve in the steam chest it its rightmost position, connecting steam from passage A on the left to the left end of the cylinder, and exhaust from the right end of the cylinder to passage B on the right. This would push the piston to the right.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/pkwak3hp3/Reversing_Piston_Valve_Concept_v21_-_Slider_Right.jpg)

In this diagram, the slider has been moved over to the left position by the eccentrics, and the steam from passage A on the left is now routed to the passage going to the right end of the cylinder, and exhaust from the left end of the cylinder is routed through the bottom cavity to passage B, pushing the piston back to the left.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/n4uh62zkn/Reversing_Piston_Valve_Concept_v21_-_Slider_Left.jpg)
If the central control valve was in the opposite position, the steam/exhaust would be swapped, with steam coming in passage B on the right, and exhaust going out passage A on the left, making the piston move in the opposite cycle. Pretty slick that they came up with a way to make this work with just one central control valve. Thier version has a collection of different size ports on that central valve, to give a more gradual throttle response than my simpler version does.

One thing that this design does not allow is timing the eccentrics a few degrees off the 90 degree position from the crankshaft, in this design the cam must be at 90 degrees.

So, later on when I decide on a final scale for the model, looks like I will be able to design up a version of the engine that looks and operates like the original, but without the very complex inner-passage casting that the original needed.
 :whoohoo:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: b.lindsey on November 06, 2017, 12:54:48 AM
So Chris, what do you have the shop elves doing while you are drawing??  :headscratch: Not making trouble I hope :)

Bill
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 06, 2017, 01:14:22 AM
So Chris, what do you have the shop elves doing while you are drawing??  :headscratch: Not making trouble I hope :)

Bill
You're right, it's tough to keep them entertained between builds, so I am alternating them between reorganizing the shop to make useful room for the mini mill I picked up from a friend's estate, carving a steersman for the Lombard model (who looks vaguely familiar), raking leaves, and polishing the carousel horse that I finished carving and painting for a friend. Its kept them mostly out of trouble, between sessions racing squirrels down the street (not sure where they got those little saddles!).


 :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 06, 2017, 03:05:57 AM
So Chris, what do you have the shop elves doing while you are drawing??  :headscratch: Not making trouble I hope :)

Bill
You're right, it's tough to keep them entertained between builds, so I am alternating them between reorganizing the shop to make useful room for the mini mill I picked up from a friend's estate, carving a steersman for the Lombard model (who looks vaguely familiar), raking leaves, and polishing the carousel horse that I finished carving and painting for a friend. Its kept them mostly out of trouble, between sessions racing squirrels down the street (not sure where they got those little saddles!).


 :ROFL:

Mini Mill?????

PS: Drawings are looking great Chris.  :ThumbsUp: I'm looking forward to hearing about your upcoming visit to the full size machine.

Jim

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 06, 2017, 01:41:52 PM
So Chris, what do you have the shop elves doing while you are drawing??  :headscratch: Not making trouble I hope :)

Bill
You're right, it's tough to keep them entertained between builds, so I am alternating them between reorganizing the shop to make useful room for the mini mill I picked up from a friend's estate, carving a steersman for the Lombard model (who looks vaguely familiar), raking leaves, and polishing the carousel horse that I finished carving and painting for a friend. Its kept them mostly out of trouble, between sessions racing squirrels down the street (not sure where they got those little saddles!).


 :ROFL:

Mini Mill?????

PS: Drawings are looking great Chris.  :ThumbsUp: I'm looking forward to hearing about your upcoming visit to the full size machine.

Jim
Yup, picked up a Grizzly mini mill that belonged to one of the rc submarine gang here who passed away this past year, should come in handy on some of the larger gears and such. Bit cruder than the Sherline but has a longer reach. Biggest silly thing on it is that the feedscrews are .0625 per turn. Where did that come from?? I am waiting for LMS to get the .050 per turn feedscrew kit back in stock.


I am really looking forward to seeing the shovel in person, two more weeks to wait! Lots of details on my list to investigate and measure.  Finding all the details in the old patents has filled in lots of details on some parts, but still lots to see.

Correction: week and two days to wait!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Stuart on November 06, 2017, 03:36:51 PM
Chris

That is a odd lead screw pitch it’s not even in our language ( mm) very odd

You have heard the term ear worm for a tune that you cannot get rid of ,well elves racing squirrels is in my head ,I have the image stuck now every time I see the tree rats down the garden plaguing the local cats 🐱

Great work on the design work in fusion , just had a bad cam from fusion rammed a carbide end mill into the nearly finished part ,full rapid in Z- 🙈🤯

Still got plenty of  :popcorn:

Stuart
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 06, 2017, 07:43:11 PM
Chris

That is a odd lead screw pitch it’s not even in our language ( mm) very odd

You have heard the term ear worm for a tune that you cannot get rid of ,well elves racing squirrels is in my head ,I have the image stuck now every time I see the tree rats down the garden plaguing the local cats 🐱

Great work on the design work in fusion , just had a bad cam from fusion rammed a carbide end mill into the nearly finished part ,full rapid in Z- 🙈🤯

Still got plenty of  :popcorn:

Stuart
Grizzly seems proud that it is a 1/16th per turn advance, but that was obviously written by a non-tool-using marketoid with his head in the swarf barrel...   :LittleDevil:

Glad I could get the visual of the elves racing on squirrels stuck in your head! Wish I had the drawing skills to do a cartoon of that one!
I did find these two:
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/d1/dd/aa/d1ddaa2a380a0fd975c9308166e297e4.jpg)

(https://sep.yimg.com/ay/yhst-83547458988818/solar-gnome-riding-squirrel-1.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: tvoght on November 06, 2017, 07:54:18 PM

Grizzly seems proud that it is a 1/16th per turn advance, but that was obviously written by a non-tool-using marketoid with his head in the swarf barrel...   :LittleDevil:


I'm picturing a shop where the only metrology instrument is  a tape measure with sixteenth inch graduations and the logo "Vote Billy Fox County Surveyor".

--Tim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 06, 2017, 08:37:36 PM

Grizzly seems proud that it is a 1/16th per turn advance, but that was obviously written by a non-tool-using marketoid with his head in the swarf barrel...   :LittleDevil:


I'm picturing a shop where the only metrology instrument is  a tape measure with sixteenth inch graduations and the logo "Vote Billy Fox County Surveyor".

--Tim
And the tape is one foot long...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: MJM460 on November 06, 2017, 11:43:18 PM
Hi Chris, great adaption of that valve gear, I was unable to even see how it worked until you showed your simplified version.  I think that would come in handy for a twin cylinder boat engine, needing only one eccentric per cylinder, a really elegant arrangement.  Even if a separate throttle was required.  Probably much easier to move with a servo than conventional reversing linkages.

I think you are right about needing that condensate drain in the outer section of the steam chest though.  It looks like it will fill with condensate, so may jam before there is enough heat to keep it evaporated.  Or perhaps the condensate just allows the valve to move back and forth with minimal extra resistance.  I am sure I remember you saying locating it is on your list for your visit.

The wonderful work is continuing to your usual standard.

MJM460

By the way, the 1/16 lead screw pitch would go well with the 1/8 pitch on my lathe.  So long as the tape is metal, not plastic like dressmakers use!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 07, 2017, 12:30:34 AM
Hi Chris, great adaption of that valve gear, I was unable to even see how it worked until you showed your simplified version.  I think that would come in handy for a twin cylinder boat engine, needing only one eccentric per cylinder, a really elegant arrangement.  Even if a separate throttle was required.  Probably much easier to move with a servo than conventional reversing linkages.

I think you are right about needing that condensate drain in the outer section of the steam chest though.  It looks like it will fill with condensate, so may jam before there is enough heat to keep it evaporated.  Or perhaps the condensate just allows the valve to move back and forth with minimal extra resistance.  I am sure I remember you saying locating it is on your list for your visit.

The wonderful work is continuing to your usual standard.

MJM460

By the way, the 1/16 lead screw pitch would go well with the 1/8 pitch on my lathe.  So long as the tape is metal, not plastic like dressmakers use!
It would work well for a boat engine, very compact and a low center of gravity. If made to a slightly larger size, should be doable to include a sleeve like Marion did to give a better throttle behavior to the control valve.  Seems to be one of those forgotten bits of technology.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on November 07, 2017, 12:49:14 AM
That's a fascinating valve, Chris. I'm still trying to wrap my head around how it works. I'm really following this thread as there are all sorts of neat mechanicals on a unit like this shovel, mostly forgotten now!

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 07, 2017, 08:20:16 PM
Some more fiddly bits on the hoist drum assembly - the steam-operated clutch band mechanism which engages/disengages the drum from the gear and shaft it runs on. When the cluth is disengaged, the drum can spin freely on the shaft. The gear that drives the shaft is fixed to the shaft.

This is another place where I found Marion's patent for this mechanism. They put a lever operated band around the end of the hoist drum, tightening the band when the lever moves by way of a small offset rod on the lever pivot. That lever is attached to the gear, and spins with it. The lever is pushed by a small steam operated piston. When the steam is removed, a spring pulls the lever back to the disengaged position. The band has a lining of wood blocks that push on the rim of the hoist drum.

The tricky bit is that the piston and lever are both attached to the large gear, and spin with it. They ran the steam input and exhaust output pipes back down through the shaft, and out the end of the shaft's center, where they have a packing gland that the steam pipe can spin within. They take this pipe, and run it down to a small D-valve box on the floor to control it. Clever bit of plumbing. In previous mechanisms, this clutch would often be actuated by a rod running down the center of the shaft, which worked but was difficult to keep adjusted as it wore.

Anyway, enough words, here are some pictures of how the 3D model of it looks. Here is a side angle showing the lever, piston, and control valve on the floor with all the piping.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/p46y3egdz/Gear_Train_v62_-_Hoist_Clutch.jpg)

And here is a view from the other side of the large gear, showing the hoist drum with the clutch band.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/p5gvwisev/Gear_Train_v62_-_Hoist_Clutch_Band.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 09, 2017, 08:24:09 PM
While waiting for the trip to get inside/around the Marion shove on Wednesday, been doing some carving on the steersman figure for the Lombard hauler. Shape is roughed down pretty well, ready to do the detail shaping on the face and hands next...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3lvedeizb/IMG_1158.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on November 10, 2017, 10:04:09 PM
In your post on November 7 you were discussing the clutch on the hoist drum.  I get why they used the steam actuated clutch band, that's kind of ingenious. I can even understand why they had to make that device part of the rotating assembly.  There's not a lot of available room there, even though it does add the complexity of rotary couplings for the steam.  But I pity the poor schmoe that they sent out to service this thing - working on this thing in 1:1 scale had to be a nightmare.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 10, 2017, 10:37:30 PM
In your post on November 7 you were discussing the clutch on the hoist drum.  I get why they used the steam actuated clutch band, that's kind of ingenious. I can even understand why they had to make that device part of the rotating assembly.  There's not a lot of available room there, even though it does add the complexity of rotary couplings for the steam.  But I pity the poor schmoe that they sent out to service this thing - working on this thing in 1:1 scale had to be a nightmare.

Don
Especially with all the grease, rock dust on everything, all the parts hot, and a quarry foreman breathing down his neck to get it back in operation!

The clutch band, with its wood lining, must have been something needing replacement (the wood part anyway) fairly often. It does not look too hard to get at, as long as the gear was stopped with the clutch and its lever at the top. That gear it is on is about 4 feet in diameter, the clutch cylinder is about 6" bore, so all those parts are quite large and easy to handle. The clutch mechanism itself is simple, but any problem with the piping through the main shaft would be nasty to service.

The brake band is the same type with a wood lining, but at least it is only a semi-circle around the drum, with one end on a threaded tensioning rod, and the other end on the brake lever. I would think it would need replacement often too, even with a durable hardwood for the pads. (pity the apprentice who thought he would help by greasing them!)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Stuart on November 11, 2017, 07:21:33 AM
Chris
Don’t knock the wood

When I start w**k 55 years ago as an apprentice electrical at the local iron work the had lots of electric overhead cranes ( I am 70 now ) those were old then most had wood blocks for brake shoes for the main hoist these were up to about 15 ton lift they worked in very dirty dusty conditions and lasted a couple of years , they were made in the chippies shop on their band saw so were cheap

The bigger modern cranes at 750ton lift in the melting plant used the modern friction material

Great work you are doing in fusion360 a pleasure to see

Stuart
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 11, 2017, 12:36:19 PM
Chris
Don’t knock the wood

When I start w**k 55 years ago as an apprentice electrical at the local iron work the had lots of electric overhead cranes ( I am 70 now ) those were old then most had wood blocks for brake shoes for the main hoist these were up to about 15 ton lift they worked in very dirty dusty conditions and lasted a couple of years , they were made in the chippies shop on their band saw so were cheap

The bigger modern cranes at 750ton lift in the melting plant used the modern friction material

Great work you are doing in fusion360 a pleasure to see

Stuart
Hi Stuart,

I wouldn't have thought the wood brake linings would last that long, but the surface area on a 4' drum is quite large, so the load is spread, and the speed is low, so it could last. Do you know what kind of wood they used?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Stuart on November 11, 2017, 02:25:02 PM
Chris

well there were no Knots in it ,I suspect it was Ash

yours asking a lot for my brain cell I can picture them in my mind and a close grained fudge coloured wood come to mind

drums were of course Cast Iron and as you can imagine well polished

dims 24 in dia 6 inches wide but thats all from memory
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 11, 2017, 02:50:11 PM
Chris

well there were no Knots in it ,I suspect it was Ash

yours asking a lot for my brain cell I can picture them in my mind and a close grained fudge coloured wood come to mind

drums were of course Cast Iron and as you can imagine well polished

dims 24 in dia 6 inches wide but thats all from memory

Might of been something like Ironbark: https://www.woodsolutions.com.au/species/ironbark-grey Ironbark was used a lot in the boat building trade where there was going to be any wear (ex. on the side where a crab or lobster pot would rub or on the bow where the anchor would hit when being pulled).

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steam Haulage on November 11, 2017, 03:53:11 PM
From the background reading I have done on steam shovels in the UK it seems brake blocks were made from Elm. But that was before Dutch Elm Disease in the seventies.

(I have started a new thread to ask some questions about Ruston-Bucyrus so as not to hijack this thread of Chris's.)
Jerry
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 11, 2017, 07:42:00 PM
From the background reading I have done on steam shovels in the UK it seems brake blocks were made from Elm. But that was before Dutch Elm Disease in the seventies.

(I have started a new thread to ask some questions about Ruston-Bucyrus so as not to hijack this thread of Chris's.)
Jerry
An, yes, good old Elm, that was used for lots of things like that before the disease wiped them out.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on November 13, 2017, 06:39:15 PM
Lookie what I found. Not a Marion but very similar. Too bad one can't see the 'rear' end but it's blocked by the coal wagon.

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 13, 2017, 07:06:07 PM
Lookie what I found. Not a Marion but very similar. Too bad one can't see the 'rear' end but it's blocked by the coal wagon.

Pete
Neat - looks like a very similar track system as on the Marion here. I knew that most of the companies offered railroad trucks and giant traction-engine-style wheels on the larger shovels like these, looks like Bucyrus/Erie also had the track option on the big ones. I have not seen much in the way of patents on this style, assume that they all worked off of existing art by that time. The smaller shovels were commonly track mounted. Marion shipped a lot of the track conversion kits for the large rail-mounted shovels starting in 1923, so I assume that the large scale track technology was common by then.

Bucyrus and Erie merged in 1927, then in 1930 they merged with Ruston in UK, but it looks like both the BE and BR names were used for many more decades. So, this shovel must be from 1927-on, any idea which model? Looks like a electric generator on the roof at the back end, just like I've seen on locomotives of the time. Where did you find this picture?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on November 13, 2017, 09:05:23 PM
Chris, that pic was in a story by local TV chan. 5 about divers discovering stuff in the bottom of a local lake. Apparently it was dug out or something and they used a steam shovel. I don't know if the pic is of 'the' shovel or is just a stock image.

The pic is one of many in a photo essay and I can't extract a link. Here's the main page:

http://www.king5.com/

It's about half way down in an area called "Trending Videos".

Not much, just a neat pic.

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 13, 2017, 09:47:14 PM
Chris, that pic was in a story by local TV chan. 5 about divers discovering stuff in the bottom of a local lake. Apparently it was dug out or something and they used a steam shovel. I don't know if the pic is of 'the' shovel or is just a stock image.

The pic is one of many in a photo essay and I can't extract a link. Here's the main page:

http://www.king5.com/ (http://www.king5.com/)

It's about half way down in an area called "Trending Videos".

Not much, just a neat pic.

Pete
That one is going to need a big bucket of soapy water and some serious elbow grease!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 15, 2017, 12:28:29 PM
FINALLY! Today is the day I get access to the Marion 91 shovel outside the quarry!


Cameras charged,check
Tape measure, check
Pad/pen, check
Led light panels, check
Ready!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Stuart on November 15, 2017, 12:46:43 PM
Chris

You forgot the most important item

Yourself  :stir:


Have a good information gathering exercise

Stuart
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 15, 2017, 01:05:37 PM
Chris

You forgot the most important item

Yourself  :stir:


Have a good information gathering exercise

Stuart
Rats! Always forgetting something!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 15, 2017, 11:28:13 PM
Finally got my chance at close-up inspection of the Marion 91 shovel today, was there alongside a pair of National Parks Service guys from the SteamTown facility in Pennsylvania, who were there to advise the historical society on the best steps to take to stabilize what is there and how to get it dressed up again and preserved for another generation. Turns out the society is already taking some great steps, they have the brush cleared away, a new parking area and viewing area off the side of the road with a nice wrought iron fence, and are getting signage explaining the machine and what it did made up.
The NPS guys were very helpful on steps to take, what materials to use, and it turns out the metal on it is in better shape than we thought, the roof, sides, machinery, and framework is in great shape with just surface rust, while the floors (sheet steel or iron of some sort) are pretty bad, lots of holes right through, but that is easy to patch over. The quarry had sprayed most of it with some sort of tar, bitumin, something like that, when they parked it 50+ years ago, most of which is wearing off now, but it preserved it for a very long time.
Sounds like they are getting some momentum behind dressing it up some more, and getting more publicity behind it to raise funds. I will be donating a copy of the blueprints for the machine once they are done, and have offered the use of the model any time they want it for displays, publicity, whatever.

So, I spent the afternoon crawing around inside, under, outside the machine (did not go up on the roof or up the boom, not agile enough for that anymore), with the tape measure in one hand and the camera in the other, documenting the snot of everything I could see and reach with the tape measure (found its quicker to snap a pic of the measure and what it is hooked to than to write it all down, that comes later). The tracks were very interesting, with the end wheels shaped more like hollow donuts, and I traced all of the piping and control levers, which run both along the inside of the cieling and also under the floor. Most of the main dimensions for things are close to what I had estimated from the photos I had gotten before, but there are doubtless a number of things on the 3D model to be tweaked. One thing I am sure needs to change are the sizes and teeth count on the lower gears, those I had to guess at before. Really glad for a good digital SLR with a long zoom lens, wound up taking ONLY 884 pictures today...!

Boy, gonna sleep good tonight!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 15, 2017, 11:51:04 PM
Uploaded the pictures from the camera to the PC, spotted a couple that give you the flavor of things there...

Shot down INSIDE the bucket, I was not aware that the holders for the teeth at the front edge went all the way down the inside.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/cnybxm41z/DSC_6772a.jpg)

Tons of shots like this, detailing dimensions on the tracks, etc.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gkbntmc6v/DSC_6915a.jpg)
Shot up between the floor frames of the control linkages, including a few birds nests...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/g7k9nfehj/DSC_6864a.jpg)
More linkages, and also showing the conditions of the floor plates, which look like an old car that was left out behind the barn. Fortunately the beams and machinery are all solid, just the leftover tar on them.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rwo9bed5z/DSC_6906a.jpg)
Lots of measurements were taken inside - here is an overall view of the main hoist and slew engines and gear trains - and you thought YOUR model was crowded, this one is 15 pounds in a 5 pound bag - to walk down the sides, you need to lean on the tops of the guards over the gears! The chain drum in this shot is for the chain that goes around the turntable at the front, swinging the main boom from side to side. The ends of the chain are at the front of the main boom, this drum takes the middle of the chain in/out on the top/bottom.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ue00in9x3/DSC_6578a.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 16, 2017, 03:19:47 AM
Thanks for the preview Chris. Sounds like a nice productive day.  :ThumbsUp: So nice to hear that the "powers that be" are interested in preserving this steam shovel.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Alan Haisley on November 16, 2017, 04:46:33 PM

Chris,
In picture 2, is that bolt something like a tread tensioner?

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 16, 2017, 05:00:56 PM

Chris,
In picture 2, is that bolt something like a tread tensioner?
Yes - the rear axle on the tracks are fixed, the front ones are held in that square block with the bolt to push them forwards and tension the tracks. The pin above the 15" mark on the tape goes through a thick-walled  eye in the back end of the tensioning bolt.
The tracks have some interesting shapes, going to be fun to sketch all them out!

This morning I strted going through the photos, double-checking the measurements on things I had already modelled up. Most are good, I did find that the front and rear axles were a few inches out, have been correcting those positions. Also, I now have better tooth counts and diameters for the travel gears, need to change a couple, and also now know what the castings look like for the bearing blocks for the front travel gears (turns out they made one large block for two of the axles, I had modeled them as seperate ones). Still need to check a few dimensions on the engines. Once all the updates are done, I will start in on drawing up the track assemblies. It was a VERY worthwhile expedition, so glad I got the opportunity to get in and spend the day on it!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on November 16, 2017, 10:29:08 PM
Hi Chris,
Years back I had to take some evidence photos, we had some devices that were 1', 2' & 3' long. They were about 2" wide made of metal and marked with yellow stripes 1" wide. The one of the appropriate length was placed next to the item being shot along with a photo gray scale or colour card if shooting in colour. It apparently made scaling the  items easier then a tape measure which we also used taking written or tape recorded dimensions.
Regards,
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 16, 2017, 11:32:55 PM
Hi Chris,
Years back I had to take some evidence photos, we had some devices that were 1', 2' & 3' long. They were about 2" wide made of metal and marked with yellow stripes 1" wide. The one of the appropriate length was placed next to the item being shot along with a photo gray scale or colour card if shooting in colour. It apparently made scaling the  items easier then a tape measure which we also used taking written or tape recorded dimensions.
Regards,
Gerald.
some of the earlier photo sets I worked from on the shovel (taken by someone else about 10 years ago) did the same sort of thing - they put a surveyors stick in a lot of the photos (not enough!), which had a alternating pattern of yellow/red every foot, a diamond at every 6", and the last foot was broken down in inches. It made scaling easier, for sure, on shots take from a distance away of a large part.

The way I did these (and the ones last spring on the Lombard), was to hook the tape measure on the end of what I was measuring, take a shot of that, then take a closeup of the tape where it crossed the end of the part - that way I can get down to fraction of inch easily. It worked out much quicker than taking measurements and writing it all down, plus I am catching a lot of stuff on other parts in the background.

So far its working out very well - today I have been going through and updating dimensions and shapes to match the actual measurements I took yesterday for the ones where I had to guestimate from the older pictures. The axles moved a few inches, things like that, but the biggest change has been finding out the two front travel gear shafts were on one common casting block with a quite complex shape - just finishing up redrawing all those parts now.

Next up I think will be the track assemblies, now that I have lots of detailed photos and measurements, before the best I had were pics taken from 20 feet away, nowhere good enough! Or, maybe I'll redo the teeth on the front edge of the bucket, now that I have pictures of the inside - the teeth go all the way down the inside face, which I was not aware of before.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 17, 2017, 12:30:17 AM
Got a lot done today, revising some of the details of sizes and positions of axles, gears, some beams to match the measurements I took yesterday on the real machine. Added the round-cornered holes in the cross beams to match the real thing. The one part that needed a major rework was the travel gear support section, which is below the floor towards the front of the machine, since I found out that the two final axles are supported by one large casting block. Here is a screen capture showing that new block, with the new positions of those gears closer to the centerline. Amazing how much a few measurements can fix a lot of guesswork!

(https://s5.postimg.cc/o2cfizrxj/Marion_91_v80.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 17, 2017, 02:08:29 PM
Okay, all you boiler experts out there: on the boiler backhead in the Marion there are a number of these gizmos:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ktc916md3/DSC_6452a.jpg)
They appear to be a removeable, or at least loosenable, plug into the water jacket around the firebox area. There were a number of them, some down at floor level, others up higher.

Anyone know what they were used for? Inspection? Cleanout? Putting in a potato to boil??
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on November 17, 2017, 04:18:46 PM
They're clean-outs, Chris. There should be quite a few...

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on November 17, 2017, 08:32:41 PM
Hi Chris,
 Looks like you had a fun day at the “Shovel”. Sounds like the guys are real keen on preserving her for the future which is nice!

Luckily down this way  :popcorn: planting is in full swing, I’ve found some extra field so should just about have enuff to get thru this coming year.... :lolb:

On the CAD front, most impressed! Makes my feeble attempts at 2D look pretty average!

Like Pete said, those are inspection or hand ports to check the internals of the boiler, when they get big enuff to be able to get a man, err person, thru they are man holes, errr person holes. There  is a ring, for strengthening on the outside of the boiler shell, to compensate for the hole. The holes are as per the picture elliptical, the stud in the middle. The brace is call a strong back, well we’re i come from,  1 on the small ports & 2 on man holes. In industry the ring will usually have a hole drilled thru it at a low point, before it’s attached to the boiler! This becomes a tell tale for any issues under the ring while in service.

Cheers Kerrin

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 17, 2017, 09:21:21 PM
Thanks for the info on the inspection ports! I figured it might be something like that, but have not seen them before (probably were there on some of the locos, but all the other piping and valves obscured them, on this boiler all the other brass/bronze gauges and valves were stolen years ago so the ports stand out more). On this boiler there are 6 of them on the backhead, did not see any elsewhere. These are fairly small, the plug is only about 2-1/2" across, though one near the top is another inch wider.

Do they taper out wider on the inside, so the pressure of steam presses them in place, or do they come out  completely? Seems like if they go into the boiler farther when unscrewed, it would be just asking for one to drop off inside?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 17, 2017, 09:33:55 PM
I have gone through most of the measurements relating to the parts of the shovel that I had already 3D modeled up, and made the corrections where needed (mostly minor, big ones on the travel gear holders). Still a few changes to make to the bucket teeth, then on to new parts again.

Here are some current screen grabs of the 3D model, with and without the cab walls showing. One thing I have not shown till now is the two cylinders for the main hoist, they are the ones laying down on either side of the gear train, they act on a common shaft as a two-cylinder engine. Its the largest one on the shovel, 12" bore by 16" stroke, where the slew/crowd engines are 8 by 8. The steering engine looks to be a smaller version of the slew engine, have not worked out its size yet - it is the only one that Marion's catalog does not mention since it was added later on.

Overall view:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/c8nio1jnr/Marion_91_v83.jpg)

with cab removed:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/a435mx7qf/Marion_91_v83a.jpg)

closer view:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/435gpv89j/Marion_91_v83b.jpg)

from underneath, quite a lot packed in:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/67ptqxugn/Marion_91_v83c.jpg)

left side, can see the cluth mechanism on the hoist drum gear:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xib4yuhxz/Marion_91_v83e.jpg)

and the boom (at this size the chain around the turntable at the base of the boom pixelates and looks odd - it is a 5"x7" chain)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fs9gdtrif/Marion_91_v83d.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 17, 2017, 09:49:53 PM
Also - just got copies of the photos they took of the shovel from a camera drone, here is an angle you don't see very often (unless you are a seagull looking for somewhere to mess)   :Lol:
I never noticed that hatch to the roof near the back end before, from the inside it just looked like a patch panel.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on November 17, 2017, 09:56:12 PM
Hi Chris,
 They are the same shape as the hole but bigger!, same curve as the boiler shell ( but not by tooo much!, probably about maybe an inch if that for this size) Hope that makes sense. They have a gasket on the side that pulls up against the inside face of the boiler, indays gone by it was asbestos,  the stud is used as a handle to get it in & out & always looks way to long....I guess trial & error has shown that if you make it too short you end up having to figure out how to retrevive it!
They usually are placed for inspection of problem areas of the boiler, as you pointed out, low down around the fire box to allow cleaning / inspection of the foundation ring, and it sounds like over the top of the fire box. Somewhere on the barrel should be a manhole, vertical boilers giving limited access to check out the tubes, locos to above the tubes. Our  x club traction, full size ,engine had this in the smoke box, I have managed to squeeze thru it, don’t think I could now! The boilers were I used to work had them in the end domes
The elliptical shape allows it to go thru the smaller diameter(?),  where as a round one wouldn’t fit!

When I did my steam tickets, part of the course was drafting, on paper, & we had to do the set out & drawings for manholes, can’t quite remember how now but CAD should make it easy!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on November 17, 2017, 09:59:28 PM
Hi Chris,
The drone shoot is cool! Just need to get the tips of some shoes in it & it would look like the model to come!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 17, 2017, 10:14:14 PM
Hi Chris,
 They are the same shape as the hole but bigger!, same curve as the boiler shell ( but not by tooo much!, probably about maybe an inch if that for this size) Hope that makes sense. They have a gasket on the side that pulls up against the inside face of the boiler, indays gone by it was asbestos,  the stud is used as a handle to get it in & out & always looks way to long....I guess trial & error has shown that if you make it too short you end up having to figure out how to retrevive it!
They usually are placed for inspection of problem areas of the boiler, as you pointed out, low down around the fire box to allow cleaning / inspection of the foundation ring, and it sounds like over the top of the fire box. Somewhere on the barrel should be a manhole, vertical boilers giving limited access to check out the tubes, locos to above the tubes. Our  x club traction, full size ,engine had this in the smoke box, I have managed to squeeze thru it, don’t think I could now! The boilers were I used to work had them in the end domes
The elliptical shape allows it to go thru the smaller diameter(?),  where as a round one wouldn’t fit!

When I did my steam tickets, part of the course was drafting, on paper, & we had to do the set out & drawings for manholes, can’t quite remember how now but CAD should make it easy!

Cheers Kerrin
So when the bolt is released, the plug would be able to move INTO the boiler, but not be pulled out? These are on the flat face of the backhead, so there is no curvature to them. I'm confused about where the gassket would be, and is the plug a parallel-sided thing or tapered? 
 :headscratch:

I could not find any kind of manhole - this boiler is pretty small, and the fire tubes take up almost all the space inside. The firebox would be accessible from underneath with the grates removed. The SteamTown guys were a little surprised at how small the boiler is, its 5' diameter, and the whole thing, including the firebox and smokebox, is only 15' long. It has about 150 2" firetubes. With the small amount of water in relation to that, it probably could heat up quickly, and was probably a coal-hungry beast.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 17, 2017, 10:17:31 PM
Hi Chris,
The drone shoot is cool! Just need to get the tips of some shoes in it & it would look like the model to come!

Cheers Kerrin
How about this?!   :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on November 17, 2017, 11:25:05 PM
Chris, the clean-outs/manholes are oval so that they can be turned and tilted to remove them...

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 18, 2017, 12:09:16 AM
Chris, the clean-outs/manholes are oval so that they can be turned and tilted to remove them...

Pete
Ah, gotcha!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on November 18, 2017, 07:54:38 AM
Hi Chris,
 Arr crap! Teach me to be in a hurry & typing! Still Pete put you right. Sorry about the curve too.....should have read your info better, no curve required on a flat side.
Pity this hadn’t come up a couple of weeks back as I could have got some pictures of the club boiler when it had its annual check.
Thanks for the extra info on the boiler, it’s about the same size as a traction engine so would of thought that there would of been some access to the inside.

Love the feet in the picture...thanks for that!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on November 18, 2017, 08:17:07 AM
That's a great picture Chris! :Lol:
The only thing th at gives it away is that the feet have no shadow!  :stickpoke:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 18, 2017, 04:14:36 PM
Hi Chris,
 Arr crap! Teach me to be in a hurry & typing! Still Pete put you right. Sorry about the curve too.....should have read your info better, no curve required on a flat side.
Pity this hadn’t come up a couple of weeks back as I could have got some pictures of the club boiler when it had its annual check.
Thanks for the extra info on the boiler, it’s about the same size as a traction engine so would of thought that there would of been some access to the inside.

Love the feet in the picture...thanks for that!

Cheers Kerrin
I did some more studying of the photos, and you are right about the shape, the plates are oval, 3-1/2" wide by approx 2-1/2" tall. Some searching online I found this video showing how to install a modern one - the one they are using is much larger, but the pricipal is the same:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-2G1qfehIk

For the size of the boiler - interesting that it would be that small for such large main engines (twin 12x16 cylinders on hoist, twin 8x8 on both the swing and crowd engines), but they are not all running continuously which helps the steam consumption.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: b.lindsey on November 18, 2017, 04:18:33 PM
Still reading along Chris. Looks like there is a lot of gear cutting in your future on this one !!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on November 18, 2017, 04:40:03 PM
They didn't show what you have to do when a plate does drop down, as he said it ruins you day and maybe the one for the guy on the next shift too.
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 18, 2017, 05:27:14 PM
They didn't show what you have to do when a plate does drop down, as he said it ruins you day and maybe the one for the guy on the next shift too.
Gerald.
Keep some spares hidden in your toolbox so no one knows you dropped one?!
Bet if your hand gets stuck in that little hole, the next shift will be merciless!   :paranoia:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 18, 2017, 05:30:37 PM
Still reading along Chris. Looks like there is a lot of gear cutting in your future on this one !!

Bill
Yeah, quite a few gears, and 6 times as many spokes!   :insane:   

Looks like they only used a couple of tooth sizes, so not too many cutters needed anyway. It was easy to see the machine had a lot of use, the teeth on the gears nearer the engines showed quite a bit of wear. On the front of the frame, you could see the dents from all the times the bucket whacked into the corner of the frame, and the A-frame has some dings from the main boom over-rotating a few times.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on November 18, 2017, 07:24:43 PM
Wow what a lovely project..something to get your teeth into !!! can't wait to see and hear it working !! :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 18, 2017, 07:27:46 PM
Wow what a lovely project..something to get your teeth into !!! can't wait to see and hear it working !! :popcorn:
Thanks Willy! I'm very excited about this one. Going to be quite a while before it is done, I am figuring this to be a multi-year project, though the individual engines will likely be running much sooner. Better plant more popcorn!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 18, 2017, 07:31:49 PM
knocking off a few of the small details I learned about while at the shovel this week, here is the small pulley that holds the line running from the dipper bucket bottom lid release back to the turntable - the operator would pull the rope to drop the bottom of the bucket and dump the dirt/rock/telemarketer/whatever...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/z9h4wl7yv/Turntable_And_Front_Track_v77.jpg)
and also there is a counterweight on the main hoist gear, to balance the weight of the steam opererated clutch mechanism:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3pr3mnu4n/Gear_Train_v84.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 18, 2017, 08:29:09 PM
and the logo on the front track supports
(https://s5.postimg.cc/q5ipwn6jb/Turntable_And_Front_Track_v78.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on November 19, 2017, 01:45:01 AM
The Logo... absolutely wonderful!!  And model makers for generations will curse you for the high detail level...

 :lolb: :lolb:

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 19, 2017, 01:51:26 AM
The Logo... absolutely wonderful!!  And model makers for generations will curse you for the high detail level...

 :lolb: :lolb:

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Pete


 :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 19, 2017, 03:01:35 AM
Chris....... it looks to me that a lot of pieces, like the piece with the logo, could be milled out of bar stock with a CNC mill (not that I know much about CNC).  :naughty:

It's sure nice that you got the chance to get up close and personal with the Marion.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 19, 2017, 03:09:40 AM
Chris....... it looks to me that a lot of pieces, like the piece with the logo, could be milled out of bar stock with a CNC mill (not that I know much about CNC).  :naughty:

It's sure nice that you got the chance to get up close and personal with the Marion.

Jim
I'm sure cnc could make them letters, but I don't have cnc. I might have strips 3d printed and lay them in, or depending on how large the letters are might hand relief cut them or they could be photo etched. I'd let the elves carve them, but their spelling is atrocious!

For the shapes of the parts,may solder them up, or make some milling jigs. Should be a very interesting build!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: fumopuc on November 19, 2017, 09:52:20 AM
Not tested by myself, but some colleges in Germany have used this
https://www.amazon.de/Rapunzel-Buchstaben-Suppennudeln-Semola-bunt-250/dp/B003AMEI6C/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1511084886&sr=8-4&keywords=buchstabennudeln
It should work very well if coated with paint or powder.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: wagnmkr on November 19, 2017, 12:12:06 PM
Chris, any idea yet on how tall the letters will be?

Tom
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 19, 2017, 01:41:26 PM
Not tested by myself, but some colleges in Germany have used this
https://www.amazon.de/Rapunzel-Buchstaben-Suppennudeln-Semola-bunt-250/dp/B003AMEI6C/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1511084886&sr=8-4&keywords=buchstabennudeln (https://www.amazon.de/Rapunzel-Buchstaben-Suppennudeln-Semola-bunt-250/dp/B003AMEI6C/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1511084886&sr=8-4&keywords=buchstabennudeln)
It should work very well if coated with paint or powder.
But then my shop elves would keep eating the engine!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 19, 2017, 01:46:13 PM
Chris, any idea yet on how tall the letters will be?

Tom
I have not settled on a scale yet, but they will be fairly small. The letters on the steam chest lids, the boiler doors, and the patent plates are even smaller, so I will probably end up ordering a set of photoetched plates like I got for the boiler plate on the front of the Lombard, that was very well done and a reasonable price. They take customer supplied artwork, so I can get them exactly as needed.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 19, 2017, 05:29:30 PM
I was learning how the joint/animation system in Fusion360 works, and put together a sequence of frames that show the movements for digging a bucket full, then put those through an animated-gif app. Here is the result, it seems to play correctly on the website, at least in the preview:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4sfitovfb/Marion_Animation.gif)
The individual frames are a starting point for some of the signage at the shovel...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: fumopuc on November 19, 2017, 05:36:30 PM
Great show, well done.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 19, 2017, 08:02:10 PM
This afternoon I started taking measurements from the real track plates, and drawing them up in 3D. What a mind-bender these are turning out to be, they are castings with hollow areas and ribs on the back side, with protrusions for the hinge pins, and the tops are tapered at the sides. Here is a picture of the back side of the real thing:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7621yc4c7/DSC_6364a.jpg)
Quite a few features to it - it fits over a tapered rim of the guide wheel, and the same notch rides on an extruded rail along the straight sections of the track frame. The angled portions are used by the rear guide wheel to drive the track - it has sections of the wheel that stick out between the angled parts of each track.

And here the sketches so far in Fusion. Normally I just do a single-plane sketch and extrude from that, but this time I think it will be a combination of extrusions from each view, along with some extrusions being used to cut away the parts from the other views, like a router blade would do.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kygguhief/Track_Assemblies_v12.jpg)
I think I've gotten all the shapes I need, going to let the brain cool off and come back to this tomorrow - have our monthly RC submarine run at the pool tonight!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 20, 2017, 10:56:40 PM
Wow. What a brain-bender the track plate turned out to be! It is quite a complex cast shape, and even with about 15 photos with measurements that I took, it was still a bunch of trial-and-error to get it right since I could not take a plate out to look at it directly from underneath.

I spent the day drawing up three sketches in Fusion, and creating a set of 'moulds' for it to use to cut away the block I created for the track, much in the way it would have been cast. It definitely was quicker in the long run since I could keep going back and tweaking the sketches, letting the application re-apply the extrusions/cuts for me, till it came out right.

Here are some screen grabs of the track piece:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/m3xhw8non/Track_Assemblies_v21a.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/sudz5oik7/Track_Assemblies_v21b.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/voh4j45av/Track_Assemblies_v21c.jpg)

Hey, Shop-Elves, yeah, you there, with the pointy hat! Where did you put my chocolate chip cookies! I need some!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 21, 2017, 03:15:12 AM
Some even more exciting news than getting the track plate design working (at least for me). The gentleman who cast the replacement boiler front numberplate for the Lombard Hauler at the museum in Maine got a copy of it cast for me in bronze, and its on its way to me. Full size copy, from the same pattern he made for the original.


 :whoohoo:    :pinkelephant:    :cartwheel:


Pics when it arrives..
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on November 21, 2017, 03:18:16 AM
That is pretty cool, Chris!
Something to be excited about for sure!  ;D
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on November 21, 2017, 04:00:40 AM
You betcha there'd better be lots of pictures!

Man, that's special.

Pete'
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 21, 2017, 08:30:05 PM
Biggining to take on its final look - got the track sets drawn up for the right side of the shovel, still need to make the track frames and road wheels for them.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/z3mqfdy07/Marion_91_v88.jpg)
The front tracks bolt on where the original wide-stance jacks were, to stabilize the machine as the main boom swings to the side. The rear tracks are set narrow, on the swivel that originally held the railroad wheel truck. The rear set is turned side to side by the steering engine and worm gear at the back, the front set is driven by the hoist engine when a second clutch is engaged.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on November 21, 2017, 11:58:29 PM
Chris,
Do the front tracks turn at all? Or do they stay fixed and only the rear tracks turn to steer the crane?
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 22, 2017, 12:12:09 AM
Chris,
Do the front tracks turn at all? Or do they stay fixed and only the rear tracks turn to steer the crane?
Kim
The front tracks are fixed at straight ahead, and move together (no differential), the rear tracks do the steering. The rear tracks freewheel, the fronts are driven. On the original rail trucks, the wheels at both ends ran off a chain drive, for the tracks it's geared to drive shafts. Its a much simpler mechanism than machines eith one pair of tracks that are individually controllable.

Both front and rear tracks can pitch forward and back on their axles as they go over bumps, but there is no spring suspension, so a very rough ride!

One thing that threw me at first when measuring was the presence of a number of crude repairs to the left front track and its support frame. There is also evidence of some major repairs to the front of the main frame, its possible that two of these shovels were combined to get one working one. There was a second one at this quarry, nothing known of what happened to it.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on November 22, 2017, 12:37:53 AM
Thanks Chris, I believe I follow now.

And, you're trying to document the original configuration of a cobbled-together Frankenstein machine!  That's got to make things a little more difficult!

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 22, 2017, 12:55:07 AM
Thanks Chris, I believe I follow now.

And, you're trying to document the original configuration of a cobbled-together Frankenstein machine!  That's got to make things a little more difficult!

Kim
At least they used two identical machines, so its not a ChevroFordUick!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steam Haulage on November 22, 2017, 08:44:04 AM
Hi Chris,

As you know already I have been inspired by your recent work on the very successful Lombard and now the Marion Shovel.

Your 3D drawings in Fusion 360 give a great example of what can be achieved with realistic and detailed illustrations of the workings of these rather complex machines. I am still working with my thoughts on Ruston-Bucyrus Shovels which in many ways are similar to Marion's products.

It seems that much of the original information on the R-B designs has been lost along with those of Ruston & Hornsby as a result of the takeovers by English Electric and then Siemens, neither of which were likely to have an interest in shovels. However I am still collecting whatever I can find, including various sources which have found their way to the Antipodes.

I have been a user of Autodesk Inventor for some time and I want to compare the results from that very expensive programme with your work with the free ( for hobbyists) Fusion 360 which originates from the same software house.  I wonder whether Inventor which has all sorts of bells and whistles but was 'invented' some years ago would perform as well as Fusion 360 which surely must have more up-to-date origins. :headscratch:

Sorry to hijack your thread.
Jerry
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 22, 2017, 01:11:00 PM
Hi Chris,

As you know already I have been inspired by your recent work on the very successful Lombard and now the Marion Shovel.

Your 3D drawings in Fusion 360 give a great example of what can be achieved with realistic and detailed illustrations of the workings of these rather complex machines. I am still working with my thoughts on Ruston-Bucyrus Shovels which in many ways are similar to Marion's products.

It seems that much of the original information on the R-B designs has been lost along with those of Ruston & Hornsby as a result of the takeovers by English Electric and then Siemens, neither of which were likely to have an interest in shovels. However I am still collecting whatever I can find, including various sources which have found their way to the Antipodes.

I have been a user of Autodesk Inventor for some time and I want to compare the results from that very expensive programme with your work with the free ( for hobbyists) Fusion 360 which originates from the same software house.  I wonder whether Inventor which has all sorts of bells and whistles but was 'invented' some years ago would perform as well as Fusion 360 which surely must have more up-to-date origins. :headscratch:

Sorry to hijack your thread.
Jerry
Hi Jerry!

Seems to be a common problem with the old equipment manufacturers - when they got bought, sold, re-sold, the documents and plans wound up at the dump along the way since the new owners didn't have any use or care for the old products, sometimes just wanted the company name. I've found a few copies of the old Marion catalogs online at some of the museums and libraries (the Carnegie Library has a big section of old trade catalogs). In those days the catalog was not just a short listing for each product, they spent page after page detailing how their product worked and differed from the others, they are a gold mine of details sometimes. Other than that, if you can find a museum or collector group who has a similar machine and make contact, you can get a lot of information. If it was not for the machine near me here, the best guess at the inner workings would have been from buying HO and O gauge model kits and studying them - sometimes they have a lot of details, but are also sometimes simplified down since they were often drawn from old photos.

Fusion is my first experience with 3D CAD applications, so I don't have any comparison to the others. I'm sure there is a lot of commonality in what they do, probably differences in how Fusion presents things since they started over with its development. Autodesk is still adding features to fusion on a regular basis, I am hoping they keep the hobbyist access to it once they consider it a mature product, it is a huge savings for an individual hobbyist with limited funding.

 :cheers:
Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 22, 2017, 04:03:06 PM
Another major milestone in the 3D model for the Marion, got the front track frames sketched and made:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/sdt82t6nr/Marion_91_v89.jpg)
I think that there are just four items remaining for the 3d model:
- rear track frames
- drive shafts for front tracks
- steering engine
- controls and linkages to engines/valves/clutches

Once those are done I can generate the paper plans for the full-size machine, then get started on scaling them down for the model!

Getting close to cutting metal!   :cartwheel:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 22, 2017, 06:41:34 PM
Are you planning to live long enough to make a model of this, or are you going to pass it on to your children and grandchildren----and maybe even your great grandchildren?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 22, 2017, 07:00:27 PM
Are you planning to live long enough to make a model of this, or are you going to pass it on to your children and grandchildren----and maybe even your great grandchildren?

 :ROFL:

Hi Brian,

Its definitely going to be a long term project, even by my standards (finished the Shay and Lombard builds in about a year each). I am figuring this one to be about 2 or 3 years, give or take a year - its a SLIGHT help that two of the four steam engines in it are identical, so that will save a few weeks!   :o

I love this kind of project - like you I really enjoy the build, and this one has LOTS of new shapes to figure out how to machine. I am hoping to take things up another notch in the level of detail, always learning new techniques. Given the size of the boiler, I'm not sure if this one will be practical to run on actual steam, or if it will rely on a compressed air line running in. The boiler on the real one  is fairly small compared to the ones on locomotives, and depending what scale I build (something around 1:16 is current guess) the boiler could be too small to run four engines, the main engines are quite large bore/stroke let alone the slew/crowd ones. The NPS guys were very surprised at the size of the boiler, but it obviously was enough for the real machine, it was used for over 40 years.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 22, 2017, 07:09:36 PM
This afternoon the casting arrived with the boiler front nameplate from the Lombard Log Hauler up in Maine - the gentleman who made the pattern and cast the one for the restoration of the real one kindly agreed to cast and sell me a bronze copy of it, came out pretty nice.
For size comparison, here is the one on the real machine (someone put a silly model in front of it!)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xnog8a13r/DSC_6035b.jpg)
and here are the spare ones I had photo-etched for the model:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9pfrt252v/IMG_1169.jpg)
And here is the casting he did for me, with the photo-etched ones in the lower left for scale, ready for some final cleanup and painting:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4e0v8cyfr/IMG_1170.jpg)
The back has the name of the museum, nice touch:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6il89fscn/IMG_1172.jpg)
So, after some casting fondling (hope I don't have to send it to Jo for some professional casting-fondling time), I'll get the edges filed/sanded smooth where the gates were, get it wire brushed clean and painted. Should look wonderful with the model!

 :cartwheel:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: b.lindsey on November 22, 2017, 07:35:26 PM
Very nice Chris, would it help to flycut the top of the letters to make them stand out more?

Bill
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 22, 2017, 07:57:14 PM
Very nice Chris, would it help to flycut the top of the letters to make them stand out more?

Bill
Hmmm, maybe.... the lug on the back is tapered slightly, but I could drill/tap it for a better hold. I'll probably start with some sanding and see what it looks like. The original was painted black with the tops of the rings/letters painted gold, have not decided whether to do the same or to leave it bronze. Though, now that you mention it, if the relieved surfaces are still the rough, and the tops taken smooth and polished, the bronze color would pop... Could just clear lacquer it to keep it shiny...
 :thinking:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 22, 2017, 10:01:57 PM
Rear track frames now done too - after making the ones for the front, naturally the second (similar) set went quicker.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ovqexj2fb/Track_Assemblies_v63.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on November 22, 2017, 11:06:16 PM
That nameplate casting looks great, Chris!  That's a big hunk of bronze!
Can't wait to see how you finish it.  I'm voting for black background and polish up the letters - I think that would look very sharp!  But its your casting, and you get the only vote that counts  ;)

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 23, 2017, 02:27:56 AM
I was looking at the photos and measurements of the steering engine, and it looks like I got a break, it appears to be identical to the slew and crowd engines, just scaled down by a third and put on a vertical mounting bracket. So, that will save a lot of drawing time, just need to scale a copy and draw the new bracket and gear covers. Won't save much time actually building it, but that's fine.

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 23, 2017, 02:43:17 AM
That nameplate casting looks great, Chris!  That's a big hunk of bronze!
Can't wait to see how you finish it.  I'm voting for black background and polish up the letters - I think that would look very sharp!  But its your casting, and you get the only vote that counts  ;)

Kim
I figure that the whole thing needs a good wire brushing to remove the sand residue,  the outer rings and tops of the letters will get filed and sanded smooth, and there are some of the inner edges that need some detailing. The background will stay rough as cast. Then probably a soak in citric acid to brighten it all up and clean off any oils. At that point I will decide whether to paint it black with gold tops like the original, or give it a clear lacquer coat, which could look really nice, have to see what the bronze comes up like. Either way, it's a great piece.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Stuart on November 23, 2017, 07:36:12 AM
Chris
Danger will Robinson

Unless your citric is clean /new it could plate it pink ( copper in the acid )
Likewise if that cast has some free copper ions it will do the same

Test it first on the spru

I recon the build will take about 2 years

My loco builds for full scale in 5 inch gauge was 5 to 6 years , one guy at the club took 21 for his

Great work with f360
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 23, 2017, 01:33:09 PM
Chris
Danger will Robinson

Unless your citric is clean /new it could plate it pink ( copper in the acid )
Likewise if that cast has some free copper ions it will do the same

Test it first on the spru

I recon the build will take about 2 years

My loco builds for full scale in 5 inch gauge was 5 to 6 years , one guy at the club took 21 for his

Great work with f360
Oh yes, I've gotten the color cast from used pickle solution before! I have a fresh bag of citric acid crystals and will try it with that. If I don't like the color it comes out, paint is always the fallback.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 23, 2017, 04:00:56 PM
As I found yesterday, the steering engine is a scaled down version of the slew/crowd engines remounted on a vertical base, so it was quick to copy/scale in Fusion, here it is:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/s87jt5p7r/Steering_Engine_v4.jpg)
and where it sits next to the boiler backhead. The spur gear on the output shaft engages a larger gear that turns a shaft that runs up to the steering box in front of the rear tracks. That box has a worm gear to turn the motion 90 degrees across the frames, turning a really long acme threaded rod that moves the front bar of the rear track assembly back and forth, steering the machine.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/jpy3ozqgn/Marion_91_v91.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 24, 2017, 08:01:50 PM
Not going to be too much to show the next day or so, I've started sorting through all the pictures from up underneath the main frame, tracing which control lever goes to which control rod, and where that leads. Lots of clevises, control horns, counterwieghts, cobwebs, and birds nests to diagram. So far I have the dog clutch, throttles for hoist, crowd, and steering, and the hoist clutch figured out. Still need to trace the reversing link on the hoist, throttle for the swing engine, and the hoist brake linkages.

Lots of breaks for cookies and leftovers!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on November 24, 2017, 08:22:20 PM
Hello Chris,

All these 3-D drawings and details are incredible. Most impressive work on your part.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: J.L. on November 24, 2017, 08:27:41 PM
Hi Chris,

This work is beyond belief. Truly a labour of love.

You must have spent hours of research before even beginning to  physicallly represent the parts on the computer.

A most fascinating project to follow.  :ThumbsUp:

Cheers...John
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 24, 2017, 08:50:04 PM
Thanks John/Thomas!  I've been researching this shovel since last spring, digging (  :Lol: ) into old photos, videos, lots of time reading the patents from the Marion company and others (get lots of mechanism details that way). After making contact with the folks at the historical society I was able to get inside access to the surviving shovel near here, which filled in SO many details. I think I am within a week of finishing up the 3d drawing, and then can start generating the 2D blueprints from that.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 24, 2017, 11:07:27 PM
Okay, I am stumped on this one....

Tracing through the controls, matching them up with the levers up at the front of the cab, and there is a foot pedal through the floor that I can't think of a reason for!

Okay, here are the items needing control from the front:
1) main hoist throttle
2) main hoist clutch (to engage drum)
3) main hoist fwd/reverse control (stephenson link)
4) main hoist brake
5) swing engine throttle/fwd/reverse (all in one)
6) steering engine throttle/fwd/reverse (all in one)
7) crowd engine throttle/fwd/reverse (all in one) - this is out on the turntable, controlled by 2nd operator
8 ) travel shaft dog clutch (to engage tracks to hoist engine)

Silly website - I had to put a space after the '8' or it turned it into a smiley!

That makes 7 controls from the cab running back, one out on the turntable
Here is where those controls are:
1) Main hoist throttle lever, hanging from roof on right
2) main hoist clutch lever -up from right side of floor
3) main hoist fwd/rev lever - one of 3 levers in group on floor
4) main hoist brake lever - one of 3 levers in group on floor
5) swing engine throttle lever - one of 3 levers in group on floor
6) steering engine throttle lever, hanging from roof on left
7) crowd engine lever - out on turntable
8 ) travel shaft dog clutch - handle coming up through floor, pulled up and latched to engage

(silly website - I had to put a space after the '8' or it turned that one into a smiley!!)

Problem is, there is ALSO a pedal that is shaped like the brake pedal on a car, between the set of 3 levers and the single lever on the floor. The shaft from that pedal looks to go through the floor, and down between the frames, but it never comes out of that space anywhere that I can find in any of the photos....
 :headscratch:

 :thinking:

 :noidea:

I can't think of another function that would need another control, can any of you?? Don't think it had a horn or headlights, no radio or power windows...  If there was a steam whistle it was stolen, the pull for that would just have been a rope from the ceiling anyway.

What else would there be??   :help:

The boiler engineers would handle all the feedwater/oiling/fuel controls from the back, there is a lubricator system but that was automatic from the engines. Don't think there was a nitrous system...

Any thoughts? Whoever thinks of the reason for the pedal wins a bag of mint chocolate chip cookies (may be supplied as a recipe 'kit' if not in easy mailing distance).

They wouldn't do this 100+ years ago just to mess with my head, would they? Or would they...  :hellno:

 :shrug:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 24, 2017, 11:38:14 PM
Okay, I am stumped on this one....

Tracing through the controls, matching them up with the levers up at the front of the cab, and there is a foot pedal through the floor that I can't think of a reason for!

Okay, here are the items needing control from the front:
1) main hoist throttle
2) main hoist clutch (to engage drum)
3) main hoist fwd/reverse control (stephenson link)
4) main hoist brake
5) swing engine throttle/fwd/reverse (all in one)
6) steering engine throttle/fwd/reverse (all in one)
7) crowd engine throttle/fwd/reverse (all in one) - this is out on the turntable, controlled by 2nd operator
8 ) travel shaft dog clutch (to engage tracks to hoist engine)

Silly website - I had to put a space after the '8' or it turned it into a smiley!

That makes 7 controls from the cab running back, one out on the turntable
Here is where those controls are:
1) Main hoist throttle lever, hanging from roof on right
2) main hoist clutch lever -up from right side of floor
3) main hoist fwd/rev lever - one of 3 levers in group on floor
4) main hoist brake lever - one of 3 levers in group on floor
5) swing engine throttle lever - one of 3 levers in group on floor
6) steering engine throttle lever, hanging from roof on left
7) crowd engine lever - out on turntable
8 ) travel shaft dog clutch - handle coming up through floor, pulled up and latched to engage

(silly website - I had to put a space after the '8' or it turned that one into a smiley!!)

Problem is, there is ALSO a pedal that is shaped like the brake pedal on a car, between the set of 3 levers and the single lever on the floor. The shaft from that pedal looks to go through the floor, and down between the frames, but it never comes out of that space anywhere that I can find in any of the photos....
 :headscratch:

 :thinking:

 :noidea:

I can't think of another function that would need another control, can any of you?? Don't think it had a horn or headlights, no radio or power windows...  If there was a steam whistle it was stolen, the pull for that would just have been a rope from the ceiling anyway.

What else would there be??   :help:

The boiler engineers would handle all the feedwater/oiling/fuel controls from the back, there is a lubricator system but that was automatic from the engines. Don't think there was a nitrous system...

Any thoughts? Whoever thinks of the reason for the pedal wins a bag of mint chocolate chip cookies (may be supplied as a recipe 'kit' if not in easy mailing distance).

They wouldn't do this 100+ years ago just to mess with my head, would they? Or would they...  :hellno:

 :shrug:

I'm thinking that the pedal was a quick release for the "stitterstat"...................well probably not!  :shrug:

OK....... I wonder if it could of connected up with one of the levers and done the same thing as the lever when the operator ran out of hands?

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 24, 2017, 11:44:55 PM
Okay, I am stumped on this one....

Tracing through the controls, matching them up with the levers up at the front of the cab, and there is a foot pedal through the floor that I can't think of a reason for!

Okay, here are the items needing control from the front:
1) main hoist throttle
2) main hoist clutch (to engage drum)
3) main hoist fwd/reverse control (stephenson link)
4) main hoist brake
5) swing engine throttle/fwd/reverse (all in one)
6) steering engine throttle/fwd/reverse (all in one)
7) crowd engine throttle/fwd/reverse (all in one) - this is out on the turntable, controlled by 2nd operator
8 ) travel shaft dog clutch (to engage tracks to hoist engine)

Silly website - I had to put a space after the '8' or it turned it into a smiley!

That makes 7 controls from the cab running back, one out on the turntable
Here is where those controls are:
1) Main hoist throttle lever, hanging from roof on right
2) main hoist clutch lever -up from right side of floor
3) main hoist fwd/rev lever - one of 3 levers in group on floor
4) main hoist brake lever - one of 3 levers in group on floor
5) swing engine throttle lever - one of 3 levers in group on floor
6) steering engine throttle lever, hanging from roof on left
7) crowd engine lever - out on turntable
8 ) travel shaft dog clutch - handle coming up through floor, pulled up and latched to engage

(silly website - I had to put a space after the '8' or it turned that one into a smiley!!)

Problem is, there is ALSO a pedal that is shaped like the brake pedal on a car, between the set of 3 levers and the single lever on the floor. The shaft from that pedal looks to go through the floor, and down between the frames, but it never comes out of that space anywhere that I can find in any of the photos....
 :headscratch:

 :thinking:

 :noidea:

I can't think of another function that would need another control, can any of you?? Don't think it had a horn or headlights, no radio or power windows...  If there was a steam whistle it was stolen, the pull for that would just have been a rope from the ceiling anyway.

What else would there be??   :help:

The boiler engineers would handle all the feedwater/oiling/fuel controls from the back, there is a lubricator system but that was automatic from the engines. Don't think there was a nitrous system...

Any thoughts? Whoever thinks of the reason for the pedal wins a bag of mint chocolate chip cookies (may be supplied as a recipe 'kit' if not in easy mailing distance).

They wouldn't do this 100+ years ago just to mess with my head, would they? Or would they...  :hellno:

 :shrug:

I'm thinking that the pedal was a quick release for the "stitterstat"...................well probably not!  :shrug:

OK....... I wonder if it could of connected up with one of the levers and done the same thing as the lever when the operator ran out of hands?

Jim
Don't think so, since it's lever goes on past into another chamber, and the other levers  are driven horizontally, but maybe there is another bell crank down there? I'll mark that as a maybe, pending more info. Hmmm...


This is payback for me thinking that I had all the photos I needed! I guess 844 was one shy of what was needed! Fortunately the director out there said I could borrow the key to the gate if I needed to get back in.


Any other ideas, anyone?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: RJH on November 24, 2017, 11:48:49 PM
How about a control to open the door on the bucket?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 24, 2017, 11:55:11 PM
How about a control to open the door on the bucket?
That's done by a rope coming back from the bucket latch  through a pulley on the main boom, and tied off at the turntable. The second operator on the turntable controlled the crowd engine and pulled the rope to drop the bucket door. It must have needed some close coordination and skill from the two operators!


 :thinking:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on November 25, 2017, 12:51:37 AM
Is there any sort of "parking brake" for the shovel when not operating?  Possibly to release a latch or pawl.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 25, 2017, 12:58:36 AM
Is there any sort of "parking brake" for the shovel when not operating?  Possibly to release a latch or pawl.
Hmm. Not that I know of, but it would be bad to come back to the quarry Monday morning and see it had rolled into the bottom of the pit!


The location of the pedal is about 12 feet in front of the travel shaft, should be easy to spot a link, will double check that in case you are right.


Could it be a brake pedal left over from when it was on railroad trucks? Those were usually screw actuated from a handwheel though.


Hmmm, a 110,000 pound steam shovel doing a parking brake turn!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 25, 2017, 01:54:17 PM
Is there any sort of "parking brake" for the shovel when not operating?  Possibly to release a latch or pawl.
Hmm. Not that I know of, but it would be bad to come back to the quarry Monday morning and see it had rolled into the bottom of the pit!


The location of the pedal is about 12 feet in front of the travel shaft, should be easy to spot a link, will double check that in case you are right.


Could it be a brake pedal left over from when it was on railroad trucks? Those were usually screw actuated from a handwheel though.


Hmmm, a 110,000 pound steam shovel doing a parking brake turn!
Hi Kvom - took a look through the pictures, and there is nothing leading down to the travel shaft or gears, so it it not some sort of brake, unless it is left over from the previous railroad trucks.

Jim's idea of a latch for one of the other levers is still a possibility.

I've put in a request to borrow the key and get back in for some more pictures in that area - I have ones close to right, but there are other things blocking the one key spot I need to see. Sigh... I need to go see the steam shovel again, so sad!   ::)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on November 25, 2017, 06:19:17 PM
Is it possible that it is a brake set/release that has to be depressed when the leaver is moved something like the clutch on a manual gearshift?
Ps If you find me on Facebook I posted my recipe for shortbread.
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 25, 2017, 07:32:05 PM
Is it possible that it is a brake set/release that has to be depressed when the leaver is moved something like the clutch on a manual gearshift?
Ps If you find me on Facebook I posted my recipe for shortbread.
Gerald.
Its possible. One of the other levers has the release lever on the handle part, which engages a notched rail at the bottom, but its possible that broke on one of the other levers and the pedal was added.
I heard back from the director, and I'll be able to borrow the key and head out there tomorrow or monday and get more pictures to know for sure - going to take a bunch of pictures up underneath that frame bay! Also, I could use a couple more of the hoist drum brake band levers, that did not come out well from the first trip.

Will let you guys know!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 25, 2017, 09:34:48 PM
Is it possible that it is a brake set/release that has to be depressed when the leaver is moved something like the clutch on a manual gearshift?
Ps If you find me on Facebook I posted my recipe for shortbread.
Gerald.
Its possible. One of the other levers has the release lever on the handle part, which engages a notched rail at the bottom, but its possible that broke on one of the other levers and the pedal was added.
I heard back from the director, and I'll be able to borrow the key and head out there tomorrow or monday and get more pictures to know for sure - going to take a bunch of pictures up underneath that frame bay! Also, I could use a couple more of the hoist drum brake band levers, that did not come out well from the first trip.

Will let you guys know!

I can almost taste those cookies already!  :LickLips:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 25, 2017, 10:33:02 PM
Is it possible that it is a brake set/release that has to be depressed when the leaver is moved something like the clutch on a manual gearshift?
Ps If you find me on Facebook I posted my recipe for shortbread.
Gerald.
Its possible. One of the other levers has the release lever on the handle part, which engages a notched rail at the bottom, but its possible that broke on one of the other levers and the pedal was added.
I heard back from the director, and I'll be able to borrow the key and head out there tomorrow or monday and get more pictures to know for sure - going to take a bunch of pictures up underneath that frame bay! Also, I could use a couple more of the hoist drum brake band levers, that did not come out well from the first trip.

Will let you guys know!

I can almost taste those cookies already!  :LickLips:

Jim
Well, mine MAY be on thier way to someone Monday afternoon. Or not, depending on what I find out at lunchtime when I get back in to see what is what! Hows that old saying go, Dont count your cookies before they are baked. Or hatched. Something like that...  :Lol:

In the meantime, we can go check Gerald's recipe - mine was posted over on the Lombard thread a while back, can repost it here if desired too.

I heard back, can borrow the key to the gate and go get more pictures and measurements Monday.   :whoohoo:

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 26, 2017, 08:04:43 PM
While waiting to get back out to the Marion tomorrow (  :cartwheel: ), I've been catching up on drawing the last parts in 3D that I know all the measurements for (steam lines to/from crowd engine, crowd engine levers, hand levers in cab).

One fitting at the boiler I can draw, but I am not really sure what it is for. This is what it looks like, a fitting with a rotary hinge that appears to have held a strap to another part that is no longer there:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/oq1iwrxpj/DSC_6459a.jpg)

The hole in the floor makes me think it is for a hinged flap to cover the cleanout in the floor, but that is a guess. The hole is below the firebox door - the firebox has its own door, hinged to open to the right, with a latch on the left. This fitting would not connect to the firebox door, but is it for a cleanout, for some sort of ramp or funnel shape to help scoop coal into the firebox? I have not seen this particular setup on locomotives. Any clues what its really for?

Thanks!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: MMan on November 26, 2017, 10:10:55 PM
Hi Chris,

Have you found how they do cylinder drain valves on all these engines yet? Have they automated in some way or is there a whole extra layer of controls for each engine?

just wondering if the operator was supposed to keep track of draining each engine everytime they used it.

All the best,

Martin.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 26, 2017, 10:41:25 PM
Hi Chris,

Have you found how they do cylinder drain valves on all these engines yet? Have they automated in some way or is there a whole extra layer of controls for each engine?

just wondering if the operator was supposed to keep track of draining each engine everytime they used it.

All the best,

Martin.
The main hoist cylinders have drain cocks at each end, connected with a control rod as usual on a loco  but those rods did not go up to the operator in the cab, must have been one of the boiler tenders that manually moved them. The vertical steering engine, next to the boiler backhead, also has the same setup. It's the crowd and slew engines that were hard to find drains on.
The slew engine had a bit too much raccoon, um,... exhaust, for me to dig under.
The crowd engine was in an angle where I did get pictures of the drains under the cylinders. There are remains of metal strips that may have been the actuating lever, but that bar is pretty rusted. So, drains are there on ghe cylinder ends, no drain for the internal passages though, that I can see.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 27, 2017, 02:54:39 AM
Chris.........do you happen to know if there's one of these shovels operational anywhere?  I'm imagining there isn't.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 27, 2017, 03:27:54 AM
Chris.........do you happen to know if there's one of these shovels operational anywhere?  I'm imagining there isn't.

Jim
For this particular model, the Marion 91, this is the best example. I understand that there is the remains of one in much worse shape in Panama. None others that I am aware of.


There ARE other similar sized shovels around, still running in museum and show settings. There are a number of great videos on YouTube of them. There is a site (don't know the address offhand) that has a list of survivors, mostly the smaller ones, a fair number of large ones.


I've seen some of the later gas and Diesel ones working at the Canandaigua steam pageant, never seen a steam one operate in person.


Except for the final controls, my 3d model is complete, and am going back to the shovel in the morning for last details. Then I will generate the plans from that at full scale measurements, should be a good stack of D size paper! After that I'll copy the project and scale it down. I've settled on a scale of 3/4":1', same as my Kozo Shay model, will make a great pair. The Lombard model is slightly larger at 1":1' scale. I considered 1:20, but think it will be better details at 1:16.


Online Metals has a sale starting tomorrow, may pick up the material for the larger frame rails and booms...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on November 27, 2017, 05:11:40 AM
Yeah, they're having a great sale Chris!  30% off!  I'd like to take advantage of it, but I'm just not ready to order for my new project.  They'll have a sale again sometime soon (I hope).

Good luck!  And may Santa bring you all the metal you need!

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 27, 2017, 01:43:10 PM
Yeah, they're having a great sale Chris!  30% off!  I'd like to take advantage of it, but I'm just not ready to order for my new project.  They'll have a sale again sometime soon (I hope).

Good luck!  And may Santa bring you all the metal you need!

Kim
Just put in an order that will cover the bulk of the project - a hefty bill, but this is a quite large model and the 30% sale saved me a LOT. Though the bill in cookies to get my UPS driver not to hate me (again, more) for ordering heavy packages is pretty steep too!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 27, 2017, 02:51:20 PM
Getting things out for the trip over to the shovel this morning, wanted to finish up the side-track on the Lombard nameplate that I got last week. Started out by getting it cleaned, detailed the letter edges, and decided that clear coating it would not set it off properly, and that I would paint it. Started with some flat black auto lacquer spray, then a coat of a slightly metallic gray, then went back over the tops of the letters with some faux-gold-leaf paint. It worked out very simple to get good edges by applying it with the side of a round tapered toothpick - no issues with even a fine brush dropping over an edge and getting some on the sides.
Here it is with the first few letters done:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rt7axg66v/IMG_1173.jpg)

and the rest finished off:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/66sagffc7/IMG_1174.jpg)
Came out looking great. Here it is next to the model - amazing how much smaller 1:12th is!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/427xfclfb/IMG_1175.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: paul gough on November 27, 2017, 03:24:58 PM
Hi Chris,Very satisfying 'objets d'art', reminders of a wonderful creative journey. Regards, Paul Gough.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on November 27, 2017, 04:14:37 PM
Very nice looking, Chris!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 27, 2017, 07:15:23 PM
All right, back from the steam shovel, and got a big mug of hot chocolate to warm up the fingers again (its COLD out there today). I started at the controls in the cab, and took a series of pictures running all the way back to the boiler, following each control rod.

It turns out that second pedal is for the brake band on the main hoist, I had thought it was one of the levers connected there. One of the levers in the group of 3 is actually connected to the drain cocks on the main hoist and slew engine cylinders! I didn't think they had a control up to the operator, but turns out they do, they are underneath the cylinders, which are only an inch off the floor, and the moving parts of the valves are just under the floor plates. Also, the crowd engine up on the main boom DOES have a drain set on the cylinders, but the rod is missing at the lower end where it comes down to the turntable, and parts of the rest are covered in vines.

Next step is to diagram which lever is which, since I am sure I will keep forgetting!

Also, I found out what that odd round-topped set of fittings is at the back of the boiler. Turns out they are not hinges like I thought, but holders for the bottom ends of levers (now missing). From underneath, I saw that there are rods running forward into the ash dump sluice, and connect to the bottoms of the fire grates in the firebox - they are the controls to move the grates for air control and to dump the ashes.

So, a couple of hours poking around, LOTS more photos (gotta love digital cameras), and a lot of tracing of control rods, I think that now I have all I need to finish up the details on the 3D model (including verifying that the left front track holder IS different due to some repair plates welded on the sides, and also that there are some non-matching track sections on the left side front tracks - they must have broken it and repaired it in the quarry).

I'll post the diagram of the controls when I get that done later...

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 28, 2017, 03:10:43 AM
Sounds like a really successful day Chris. I bet it was fun going to look at it today.........knowing just what your were looking for.  :)

Jim

PS: That nameplate looks really sharp!  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 28, 2017, 03:22:43 AM
Sounds like a really successful day Chris. I bet it was fun going to look at it today.........knowing just what your were looking for.  :)

Jim

PS: That nameplate looks really sharp!  :ThumbsUp:
Thanks Jim! I am really pleased with how it is going. It's amazing how many more little details that I saw today, after spending time with the first photo set and drawing as much as I could from them. Same thing happened with the Lombard, second day there filled in lots. I spent several times longer there today than I expected, kept going around/in/under and seeing more.


The 3d model is getting very complete, just 3 more links to do on the controls, and a few misc details. Very excited! Got a big pile of metal ordered, the ups guy is gonna hate me (as will whoever is getting the next box over on the conveyor belt).


I've also been drawing up some diagrams of how the shovel operates and how steam engines in general work for the historical society to use on the new signs they are going to put up by the fence. This spring more work will start on patching holes and getting it prepped for new paint on the outside, very exciting things!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 28, 2017, 10:11:40 PM
Linkages from the control handles to the main hoist stephenson links and the throttle valve on the slew engine are done, just need to make the links to the drain cocks on the hoist and slew engines, and the control rods will be done! Then a few small updates on some other parts to match what I found at the shovel yesterday, and the 3D drawings should be done.

Time for a cookie!  Oh, and dinner!
 ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 29, 2017, 08:59:21 PM
Today I got the last of the linkages done from the controls in the cab back to the engines/etc, and also made up the firebox grate assembly. The grates have an interesting shape, each panel has a curved top with diagonal slots, the bottoms have rectangular holes, and they all have a curved cross section with a hollow core. They pivot in the center of each one to allow dumping of the ash, and there is also a door at the bottom of the ash sluice that can be adjusted for air flow.
Here is a top view of the grates:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/z1647oetz/Boiler_v44_-_grate_top.jpg)
and a bottom view - the bars between the pivots get connected to rods moved from links in the cab behind the boiler backhead.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4jq9g4z6v/Boiler_v44_-_grate_bottom.jpg)

This completes the last of the parts (that I know of), and there is just one set of tweaks to the crosshead bearings to make, and the 3d model will be done (that I know of - sure there will be more discoveries later on). So, almost ready to make up a set of nice renderings of different views, inside and out, and make up labeled diagrams of all the controls for future reference... Then I can start generating the paper plans with dimensions.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 30, 2017, 09:20:46 PM
Major milestone time - the 3D model is done, pending any future learnings or mistakes found!

 :whoohoo:

I've been experimenting with the 'render' feature in Fusion360, getting some interesting results so far. It looks like I need to experiment some more with the materials that I assign to the parts (have defaulted everything to a gray steel finish up till now) to get better contrast on things.

Here is a view of the inside of the machine:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8c11nuolz/Marion_91_Inside_View.jpg)
I've got another render perking away now that is a close-up view of the control station that I am going to add labels for each control lever....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on November 30, 2017, 09:25:54 PM
OMG! That's a most wonderful illustration!!   :o :o

I'm drooling on the keyboard.... can't wait to see 'details'.  :P :Love:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 30, 2017, 09:38:57 PM
Thanks Pete!  I am amazed how much better these renders look than the working views!

Here is a closeup of the operator control station, have not labelled the controls yet, will do that later on.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4469ets8n/Marion_91_Controls_View.jpg)
This shows the 6 levers, a pedal and a pull-up handle for the main operator, then up forward on the base of the boom you can see the lever for the crowd engine that the secondary operator would control - guess they did not come up with a suitable linkage to bring that back for the main operator, since the chain runs on the axis of the turntable.

I want to do some experimenting with the materials I assign to the parts, will generate more detail views in the next couple days...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 30, 2017, 09:39:29 PM
Marvelous work Chris. The monochrome grey doesn't really give much definition to individual components. That is why my models are so many different colors. I'm not trying to promote the "rainbow thing"---it just helps a great deal to see where one piece ends and another piece starts.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 30, 2017, 10:01:56 PM
Marvelous work Chris. The monochrome grey doesn't really give much definition to individual components. That is why my models are so many different colors. I'm not trying to promote the "rainbow thing"---it just helps a great deal to see where one piece ends and another piece starts.---Brian
I agree - they have a option for coloring each component a different color automatically, but they only use 6 colors for that, and it doesn't allow any control. I think I will try some of the paint colors and see how it looks. They also have a lot of lighting knobs - lots to play with!

It still looks SO much better than my pencil drawings!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on November 30, 2017, 10:40:36 PM
The detail & crispness of these last images is excellent.....

Back in post #166 we see the two slew chains which connect to the drum.......does the winch drum drive engine reverse to achieve the slewing?or is there some sort of reversing clutching device in the drum itself?

The driver/operator would certainly had a birds eye view of proceedings  :facepalm:

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 30, 2017, 11:03:52 PM
The detail & crispness of these last images is excellent.....

Back in post #166 we see the two slew chains which connect to the drum.......does the winch drum drive engine reverse to achieve the slewing?or is there some sort of reversing clutching device in the drum itself?

The driver/operator would certainly had a birds eye view of proceedings  :facepalm:

Derek
I only modelled the chains back as far as the rear guides, did not take them all the way to the drums.

There are two drums - one for the slewing of the turntable, the other for the main hoist.
The slew drum (rearmost and highest up) is driven by a smaller two-cylinder engine that sits between the gearbox and the boiler. That engine has one control valve that accomplishes both reversing and throttle, very clever arrangement that I touched on in an earlier post. The slew chain was wound around the slew drum a number of times, and the ends of the chain fasten to the front bottom end of the boom after going around the turntable.

The hoist engine is made up of the two large cylinders, one either side of the gearbox. That one has a stephenson linkage to reverse it, but the reverse is only normally used when driving the tracks (which engage with a dog clutch underneath). The hoist engine drives a large gear on the left of the hoist drum, which has a steam-operated cylinder which moves a lever which tightens a clutch band around the drum edge. To hold the bucket up and to control the speed it lowers, there is a brake band on the other end of the drum. To lower the bucket, they would put the hoist throttle all the way back, which turns off the steam and also connects the steam pipes to the cylinders over to the exhaust, letting the engine freewheel. That whole combination lets the operator do the work with the fewest number of levers. Well, they did combine the hoist clutch to the hoist throttle in a later model of the shovel, taking away one more lever.

I know that is a lot of words for all the actions - I am planning on making up a set of images to show all the controls and what/how they work this coming week, both for this thread and also they will be used on the signage going up at the shovel site, which is cool!

Oh, and the SECOND operator, out on the turntable, was the one with the birds-forehead view! He would be spinning side to side on the turntable while operating the crowd engine, and also pulling the rope to release the bottom lid of the bucket to dump the dirt/rock/mud. No automatic limits on anything either - there was a lot of marks on the front corners of the frame where the bucket hit it!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 30, 2017, 11:08:03 PM
Oh, and the main operator had to be sure not to lean to the right, or his right knee would get sliced by the edge of the chain guide wheel. The edge of the rightmost control handle has grooves worn halfway through it, since it is only an inch away, and any flex made it rub on the wheel!

OSHA? Nope!

O-S**t? Yup!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 30, 2017, 11:56:37 PM
Looking back at the pics, I think the gears in the main gearbox show up better - need to check what material/color options were on those, use that as a guide for the rest. There are lots of options for color, texture, reflectivity, etc.

EDIT: Nope - they are the same 'steel - satin' as the rest, just a matter of the reflections from other parts that makes them look better. Will play with other options on small parts/images tomorrow (small so they render quick).
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 01, 2017, 02:42:32 AM
This just gets better and better!  :cartwheel:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Stuart on December 01, 2017, 07:17:08 AM
Chris

All I can say is wow 👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 01, 2017, 06:09:31 PM
Thanks guys!

I did a bunch of experimenting with surface appearances (settled on their 'cast iron') and found the controls to change the lighting angles and background, and came up with this version, which shows the details much better:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9mv0qxvg7/Marion_91_Controls.jpg)
To get true photo-realism, you would need controls on variation of surface colors/textures over areas, more ray-tracing options, things like that, but for a 3D CAD app this is quite amazing. I hope the model can look this good!
Got some more views in the render pipeline now...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on December 01, 2017, 06:22:05 PM
Did the operator have to stand, or is there a seat missing?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 01, 2017, 06:39:17 PM
Did the operator have to stand, or is there a seat missing?
He would be standing. The old catalogs don't show any seat, and it would be hard to reach the levers and pedal while sitting, they are too high up. When I was standing on the platform, everything was in easy reach.
The secondary operator stood as well. I've seen a seat for him on larger models, sometimes slung off the side of the boom, but on this one everyone appears to have worked standing.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 01, 2017, 06:53:06 PM
Version with the controls labelled:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/n51x344zr/Marion_91_Controls_-_Labelled.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on December 01, 2017, 07:16:42 PM
These illustrations are absolutely amazing, Chris. I've been away from CAD long enough that the new stuff just blows me away!!

Outstanding!!!  The next obvious thing would be an animation of this model showing the various mechanisms in operation...  :o

I envy your skill, patience and dedication.

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 01, 2017, 07:27:54 PM
These illustrations are absolutely amazing, Chris. I've been away from CAD long enough that the new stuff just blows me away!!

Outstanding!!!  The next obvious thing would be an animation of this model showing the various mechanisms in operation...  :o

I envy your skill, patience and dedication.

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Pete
Thanks Pete!  I've done a couple of simple animations, but animating the entire thing is going to have to wait for videos of the model!!  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 01, 2017, 07:30:14 PM
Couple more rendering views:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/j8ol7gzjb/Marion_91_Outside_View_-_small.png)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/893dvuton/Marion_91_Close_Inside_View_-_small.png)

Time to start making the 2D drawings!  Oh, and while changing the appearance properties of the parts, I had it give me a total part count of the subassemblies. Grand total, not counting rivets, smaller bolts, and most of the nuts (excluding me) stands at 3586. Gonna be a long build!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 02, 2017, 01:50:36 AM
Started making up the plan sheets, and found out that Fusion allows you to put a photo in each sheet (based off the title block for a logo), so I made up a rendering of each sub-assembly to put up in the corner - seen that done on other plans, think it looks good plus gives a good reference for the assembled parts.

Here are a couple interesting views:

Slew/Crowd engines (both the same)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/nj7ughorr/Slew_Engine.png)

Hoist engine:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/emx2cuvo7/Hoist_Engine.png)

Boiler:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/yhj3z2imf/Boiler.png)

Turntable/main boom:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/jlkkreewn/Turntable_And_Derrick.png)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on December 02, 2017, 02:15:48 AM
Those are amazing renders, Chris.
I love the background - looks like Tatooine! :)
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on December 02, 2017, 02:25:29 AM
Just freekin' amazing!!! I remember back when all that sort of work was done by illustrators. Things have changed....

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 02, 2017, 02:35:26 AM
Going to be a big incentive to try and get the model to look that good! I'm really impressed with the software!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 02, 2017, 04:45:20 AM
Fantastic Chris. Lets hope for a long winter in Rochester!  ;)

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on December 02, 2017, 09:24:54 AM
Yeah Gods! That's just awesome Chris!

Glad the guys got the  :popcorn: planted!!!! Hope it doesn't suffer too much from the sun we are getting, hopefully last years crop will last until this years is in !!

Going to be a great build to follow along!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: PJPickard on December 02, 2017, 12:25:05 PM
Excellent work on those renderings, and of course the whole solid model. I'm just starting to figure out the CAM side of Fusion.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 02, 2017, 02:18:37 PM
Fantastic Chris. Lets hope for a long winter in Rochester!  ;)

Jim
Hope its not a three year winter!!  :Lol:
I still get a lot done in good weather, send me a nuce day once in a while! 


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 02, 2017, 02:19:55 PM
Yeah Gods! That's just awesome Chris!

Glad the guys got the  :popcorn: planted!!!! Hope it doesn't suffer too much from the sun we are getting, hopefully last years crop will last until this years is in !!

Going to be a great build to follow along!

Cheers Kerrin
THAT'S what I keep hearing in the distance, popcorn crunching!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 02, 2017, 02:22:12 PM
Excellent work on those renderings, and of course the whole solid model. I'm just starting to figure out the CAM side of Fusion.


I've gotten comfortable with the sketching and modelling side, don't have a clue on the mesh model part, never looked at the sheet metal, simulation, or CAM portions. An amazing technology.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on December 02, 2017, 05:17:57 PM
Fantastic Chris. Lets hope for a long winter in Rochester!  ;)

Jim
Please no long winter in Rochester, it's south of me and if it's long there it's longer here.
I did some computer drafting 30 odd years back (and pencel and ink before that), but what I was doing is kids crayon scripleing compared to what you are doing.
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 02, 2017, 05:57:37 PM
Fantastic Chris. Lets hope for a long winter in Rochester!  ;)

Jim
Please no long winter in Rochester, it's south of me and if it's long there it's longer here.
I did some computer drafting 30 odd years back (and pencel and ink before that), but what I was doing is kids crayon scripleing compared to what you are doing.
Gerald.
Some of the coldest weather I've ever been in was up in the Toronto area, going to the winter boat show back when you guys had the indoor pool set up for the RC boat display (wow, that was a LONG time ago, think I was in college at the time). The one night the temps got so low the overhead electric trolley lines were snapping, and we had a heck of a time getting the car to run in the morning. You guys don't get quite as much snow as us, but your air gets swarfing COLD!

The only drafting I had done was in the high school class with pencil on paper - this is MUCH more productive!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Admiral_dk on December 02, 2017, 09:03:35 PM
I'm very impressed with the "photos" you created with the software  :praise2:

At a quick glance the do look like pictures taken with a camera - it's only when you look closer that you realize they are "artificial" .... and I do like the later comment about Star Wars appearance  ^-^

Best wishes and looking forward to another amazing journey of your endeavours, followed quietly from the background with the rest of the Peanuts  ;D

Per
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 02, 2017, 09:46:16 PM
I'm very impressed with the "photos" you created with the software  :praise2:

At a quick glance the do look like pictures taken with a camera - it's only when you look closer that you realize they are "artificial" .... and I do like the later comment about Star Wars appearance  ^-^

Best wishes and looking forward to another amazing journey of your endeavours, followed quietly from the background with the rest of the Peanuts  ;D

Per

"You Can Always Count On The Cheap Seats!"
- Harry Chapin

Glad to have you along for the (next) ride!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 03, 2017, 02:42:09 AM
Got a start on the plans, will take a while to finish them.


In the meantime, here is a video that one of the guys took from his submarine last time at the Y pool. The Orca sub is mine.



Not a valid vimeo URL
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 03, 2017, 02:58:58 AM
That's way cool Chris. Looks like there's 2 sections to that pool.

Also looks like there may of been an issue with one of the subs at the end there?

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 03, 2017, 03:05:10 AM
That's way cool Chris. Looks like there's 2 sections to that pool.

Also looks like there may of been an issue with one of the subs at the end there?

Jim
Yup, the pool has a large normal rectangular area, and a smaller shallow section connected to it, fun to navigate. His video came out well. That sub at the end had a broken latch, the top half came off. Most of them are built that way, so you can get at the controls and the water tight cylinder with the electronics.
My whale did not bite off the deck. Honest. Really...  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 03, 2017, 03:21:15 AM
That's way cool Chris. Looks like there's 2 sections to that pool.

Also looks like there may of been an issue with one of the subs at the end there?

Jim
Yup, the pool has a large normal rectangular area, and a smaller shallow section connected to it, fun to navigate. His video came out well. That sub at the end had a broken latch, the top half came off. Most of them are built that way, so you can get at the controls and the water tight cylinder with the electronics.
My whale did not bite off the deck. Honest. Really...  :Lol:

Sure..........that's what you say!  :thinking:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on December 03, 2017, 05:44:33 AM
Neat video Chris!  It must be pretty rewarding to see your Orca buzzing around like that.  Pretty impressive underwater video too!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 06, 2017, 10:36:38 PM
Just a quick updatwe on what is happening - I got the last of the plan sheets generated (43 pages, D-size, quite a pile) and off getting a couple sets printed - one for me and one for the historical society. I printed off a set on 8-12x11 paper to check them, they are legible but the text is pretty tiny.

Next step is to go get some cookies (and start the dough for this year's batch of Christmas cookies), and rest up for a bit.  Then, will make a copy of the project workspace and use that one to scale down to 1:16 scale for the model. I am assuming that there will be some work to do on the drawing files in that copy, at least have to reset the scale of the parts on each page, if not go in and change some dimensions on the thinner parts. Also, I'll need to design up the version of the slew/crowd/steering engines to use the simplified valving that I came up with to accomplish the combined throttle/reverse control to replace the original version, which depends on some very complex castings in the engine block.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: MJM460 on December 07, 2017, 04:33:13 AM
Hi Chris, that valve adaption you came up with is very clever.  I have spent quite a while looking at it and following how it works.

I have noticed that because of the lack of symmetry, the pressures will tend to be tipping the valve a bit rather than pressing it down flat on the port face.  The full size at least partly overcomes this by the extra weight on one end due to the casting shape.  When you come to the scale design for your engines, apart from making the cylinder ports as large as practical, it might be worth seeing if you can make it a bit more symmetrical.  This might mean making it a bit longer and I don't know if that will fit in the constraint of the valve chest outline, but if you see an option, it might be worth minimising the unbalanced pressure forces on the valve by making it as symmetrical as possible.

I suspect that is far enough ahead to not be an immediate concern, but having these things ticking over in the subconscious is often more helpful than a last minute thought, now that you have mentioned engines.

I am following every step of another great project, thank you for your effort to document it so completely.

MJM460
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 07, 2017, 02:13:45 PM
Hi MJM,


I had not thought about that part. The original, and mine, also have the steam chest around the slider full of steam, so that is acting to press the slider down with the lower pressure on the exhaust side (slightly on the steam side probably as the piston moves and the steam flows, but that would be transitory).
You are right in that it would help to add more mass on the outboard end. The slew engine lays flat, where the crowd engine is 45 degrees down at the cylinder end, which will help a bit. The tough one will be the steering engine, which is vertical.
I based my drawings on Marion's patent, which does not mention the steering engine version since that came a decade later. I wonder if they added a sprung guide, like a balanced d valve has. I could probably add a strip of spring material above the slider to keep it pressed down, shouldn't take much. Hmmm...


Thanks for noticing that! It's probably not a problem for the slew engine, but the others it could be.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: MJM460 on December 08, 2017, 11:51:47 AM
Hi Chris,  it's not easy to be sure how important the effect is, but more symmetrical will always lead to less problem.  The problem is not the upper face, which as you say has uniform steam pressure over it, but the port face of the valve.  The area connected to the exhaust is obviously at low pressure and the area of this exhaust cavity with its low pressure causes most of the force pressing the valve against the face.  The steam supply port is a bit harder to tell, but I think sometimes at least it is a little lower than the steam supply, if only due to the flow through the passages, so adds a little to the force.  The sealing faces are harder to analyse, but the pressure distribution is often assumed to be linear between the known pressure at the ends of the valve and the pressure in the cavities, so it tends to add to the force.  Obviously the largest part of the force, the part due to the exhaust cavity being off centre, means the forces on the valve are not quite balanced as they are in a normal valve.

Just worth a little thought in case the valve is easily made more symmetrical, as that would be worthwhile.  I think the pressures will still press the valve against the face, bit the forces may be a bit un even, so I am not sure that a spring would be necessary, or that it would even help.  It will be interesting to see what others think.

MJM460


Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 08, 2017, 12:51:03 PM
I think there will be room to extend the slider a bit, think I will design it with it longer to start with. The next step on the plans is to take a copy of the 3d project, scale all the components down, then replace the innards of the slew/crowd engines with my version of the ports, so that will be a perfect time to make that change.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 09, 2017, 09:10:59 PM
I've started making the model-sized version (1:16) of the 3D model, and it looks like it will take a bit longer than I had hoped. Fusion HAD a prototyped way to branch a project, and let both continue on from the branch, which would have let me copy both the design and the drawings and still have the original ones.

However, that preview has ended, and they have decided they did not like it, will be starting over on that functionality. They also recently said there would be a way to copy the linked drawings with a design, that never made the release last month, say they hit a problem and are rethinking the whole idea.

So, sigh....    :shrug:

Looks like I will have to regenerate all the drawings (all 43 pages) for the scaled-down copy of the project. At least it still lets me make a sub-folder and copy all the projects into it (no way to copy them to a top-level folder, but that is no big deal).

Going to be another week or so before any metal cutting starts.

Keep that popcorn warm, things will continue!   :zap:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 11, 2017, 08:02:21 PM
I have all the views for the model-sized version of the Marion shovel laid out, still need to add the dimensions to everything. In order to get started cutting metal (finally!) I am going to work on that in the background, while starting work on the dipper bucket. That should make a nice piece to have sitting with the parts as they get made.

The bucket shell was a large casting in the original, I think that I am going to make a wood form and bend some sheet copper over it to make the shell. Or maybe some annealed brass bar? Have to make a test, see if the brass will take the bends or not. The shell is 5/32" thick, seems like the brass would take a tight bend that thin (probably in a couple of annealing steps), but if not I know the copper will do it.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 11, 2017, 09:57:49 PM
I have all the views for the model-sized version of the Marion shovel laid out, still need to add the dimensions to everything. In order to get started cutting metal (finally!) I am going to work on that in the background, while starting work on the dipper bucket. That should make a nice piece to have sitting with the parts as they get made.

The bucket shell was a large casting in the original, I think that I am going to make a wood form and bend some sheet copper over it to make the shell. Or maybe some annealed brass bar? Have to make a test, see if the brass will take the bends or not. The shell is 5/32" thick, seems like the brass would take a tight bend that thin (probably in a couple of annealing steps), but if not I know the copper will do it.
Got the plan sheets dimensioned up for the dipper, and also checked the metal stock - have some copper sheet left over from boiler work that will work out fine, the wide brass bar I have is a bit thick, and I don't think it will take these tight bends as well, so am going to use copper for the shell and brass/steel for the rest. First I need to do some wood work and make the form to bend the shell around...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 11, 2017, 10:31:47 PM
Oh, and for those of you who know me, you know I can't just be working on one project at a time! I've had this one on the back burner for a while, finally got enough knowledge put together to attempt it: another RC submarine project, this time it is another 'biologic' sub, a green sea turtle! I got the idea from one of the Nature episodes on PBS, where they used remote operated animals with cameras in the eyes to do research on animals in the wild. One of them was a sea turtle that swam around with dolphins and such, it made me think that something simaler would be a really fun model. So, I learned a bit more about moldmaking and the newer rubber compounds for flexible flippers/etc, and made some wire-controlled animitronic prototypes. So far I have the shell and head carved up from wood, still getting that sealed up and smoothed out, and just cut the blanks for the flippers. The head and tail will flex side to side as it steers, the flippers will flex up/down to act as dive planes, and there will be a pair of propellers in kort nozzles set back beside the tail for propulsion.

Here is a picture of the parts so far. In front is the small plastic turtle I found at the zoo shop this past summer, used it as well as photos for the proportions of the model.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wuthhip4n/IMG_1569a.jpg)

Now, back to carving out the form for the Marion bucket!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 12, 2017, 04:43:13 AM
Oh, and for those of you who know me, you know I can't just be working on one project at a time! I've had this one on the back burner for a while, finally got enough knowledge put together to attempt it: another RC submarine project, this time it is another 'biologic' sub, a green sea turtle! I got the idea from one of the Nature episodes on PBS, where they used remote operated animals with cameras in the eyes to do research on animals in the wild. One of them was a sea turtle that swam around with dolphins and such, it made me think that something simaler would be a really fun model. So, I learned a bit more about moldmaking and the newer rubber compounds for flexible flippers/etc, and made some wire-controlled animitronic prototypes. So far I have the shell and head carved up from wood, still getting that sealed up and smoothed out, and just cut the blanks for the flippers. The head and tail will flex side to side as it steers, the flippers will flex up/down to act as dive planes, and there will be a pair of propellers in kort nozzles set back beside the tail for propulsion.
Chris.............you definitely have more hours in your day than the rest of us!  :praise2: It's going to be fun to see that "bad boy" in operation.

Stay warm back there............looks ugly on the news!

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 12, 2017, 01:17:15 PM
Oh, and for those of you who know me, you know I can't just be working on one project at a time! I've had this one on the back burner for a while, finally got enough knowledge put together to attempt it: another RC submarine project, this time it is another 'biologic' sub, a green sea turtle! I got the idea from one of the Nature episodes on PBS, where they used remote operated animals with cameras in the eyes to do research on animals in the wild. One of them was a sea turtle that swam around with dolphins and such, it made me think that something simaler would be a really fun model. So, I learned a bit more about moldmaking and the newer rubber compounds for flexible flippers/etc, and made some wire-controlled animitronic prototypes. So far I have the shell and head carved up from wood, still getting that sealed up and smoothed out, and just cut the blanks for the flippers. The head and tail will flex side to side as it steers, the flippers will flex up/down to act as dive planes, and there will be a pair of propellers in kort nozzles set back beside the tail for propulsion.
Chris.............you definitely have more hours in your day than the rest of us!  :praise2: It's going to be fun to see that "bad boy" in operation.

Stay warm back there............looks ugly on the news!

Jim
Oh, are you guys still back in that silly alternate universe with only 24 hours in a day?!   :Lol:


We got another 4 or 6 inches of snow overnight, more coming tonight. Its good to be retired so I can pick when I go out!  A guy I know lives near Buffalo where the lake effect snow comes off of Lake Erie, they regularly get snow by the foot whenever the wind is blowing from the west, which it usually is.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 12, 2017, 02:56:58 PM
Okay, been a while coming, but finally starting to shape material for the Marion 91!

All right, its not metal, and its just a form to make the metal, but it made shavings, so it counts! Here is the wood form to bend the copper sheet over to make the body of the bucket:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/s6wboqv07/IMG_1571.jpg)

The block is a chunk of apple wood that I had in the stacks, left over from cutting knees out of the crooks of an apple tree for use in one of the full size boats (the naturally curved grain where branches come out of the trunk is very strong and stable). The block was cut to width (3") and depth (2.69") on the table saw, then the one side was tapered and the corners rounded off with a block plane. The block is longer than is needed for the metal, to leave room to clamp it in the vise. It should also work out as a holding fixture when milling the ends and drilling holes in the bucket shell.

Here is a rendering of the dipper assembly to show you where I am going with this:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qosg73kd3/Dipper_Boom_And_Bucket.png)
The bucket shell will get extra layers of bar stock to form the thicker areas at the top and bottom - the original did it the same way, with the bands rivetted in place.

Next up will be to cut a 3-1/2" wide length of the sheet stock, anneal it, and start bending - that will likely be tomorrow, have some other family stuff today.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 12, 2017, 03:22:01 PM
 :whoohoo:  :popcornsmall:  :wine1:

I see plans under the wood form. It'd be great to see them, if you haven't posted them already.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: mal webber on December 12, 2017, 05:33:34 PM
Looking forward to seeing this build  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 12, 2017, 06:53:37 PM
:whoohoo: :popcornsmall: :wine1:

I see plans under the wood form. It'd be great to see them, if you haven't posted them already.

Jim


I only have the first couple of sheets of the scaled down ones done so far, will be dimensioning the rest over the next week or two. There are plans for the plans in the works, more info on that in the next couple of months... :-X
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 12, 2017, 06:54:45 PM
Looking forward to seeing this build  :popcorn:
Great to have you along for the ride, this should be a fun one!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on December 13, 2017, 02:51:09 PM
"Oh, are you guys still back in that silly alternate universe with only 24 hours in a day?!   

We got another 4 or 6 inches of snow overnight, more coming tonight. Its good to be retired so I can pick when I go out!  A guy I know lives near Buffalo where the lake effect snow comes off of Lake Erie, they regularly get snow by the foot whenever the wind is blowing from the west, which it usually is. "

Chris I have been trying to find the universe with more than 24 hours in a day for years.
It is nice to be retired and pick when you have to go out, but sometimes the Gods are against you. Yesterday I had a heart specialist appointment downtown, took me an hour to go what is normally a 25 minute bus ride, then 45 minutes on two subways, that normally is a 30 minute ride. Then to top it all off they want to do another heart procedure.
I once asked one of the Buffalo Guys why there ancestors had not moved to somewhere with less snow after the first winter, He said that they had probably burned there wagons the first year to keep warm. with to days temperature I can understand that -12 C now.
Are you going to do a thread on your sea turtle build?
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 13, 2017, 03:27:33 PM
Quote
"Oh, are you guys still back in that silly alternate universe with only 24 hours in a day?!   

We got another 4 or 6 inches of snow overnight, more coming tonight. Its good to be retired so I can pick when I go out!  A guy I know lives near Buffalo where the lake effect snow comes off of Lake Erie, they regularly get snow by the foot whenever the wind is blowing from the west, which it usually is. "
Chris I have been trying to find the universe with more than 24 hours in a day for years.
It is nice to be retired and pick when you have to go out, but sometimes the Gods are against you. Yesterday I had a heart specialist appointment downtown, took me an hour to go what is normally a 25 minute bus ride, then 45 minutes on two subways, that normally is a 30 minute ride. Then to top it all off they want to do another heart procedure.
I once asked one of the Buffalo Guys why there ancestors had not moved to somewhere with less snow after the first winter, He said that they had probably burned there wagons the first year to keep warm. with to days temperature I can understand that -12 C now.
Are you going to do a thread on your sea turtle build?
Gerald.
You remember Paul Spielberger? He moved to the south side of Buffalo near the lake, since he likes snow so much - they get DUMPED on every time there is a west wind off Lake Erie. And he is a school teacher, figured he would have more sense! I heard that the east end of Lake Ontario is getting hit hard too, as usual, another four feet yesterday. The snowmobilers are having a ball.

I am probably going to do an article for the sea turtle sub in the Sub Committee journal (thats the group that organizes the RC sub clubs). I'll post pics here occasionally too as the work progresses. Just ordered a bunch of the mold-making supplies from Smooth-On, got a few more of the master parts to carve and prep, and I want to have the wire-controlled limb mechanisms made before I cast the parts in silicone rubber. The shell will be fiberglass.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 13, 2017, 06:57:17 PM
And the actual metal-work has begun!  Started by cutting the blank for the bucket shell out of some brass sheet stock (found another sheet at the bottom of the stack that was a closer size in brass than the copper I had, this will make a stronger finished part).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/drx8sl5ev/IMG_1572.jpg)
Set up the torch outside (COLD out there today, so the metal cooled down again quickly between annealing steps) and got it up to a dull red, then let it cool and gave it the initial bend over the form, just pushing it in place by hand. Got this far around before it work-hardened and stopped:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/df5umfi07/IMG_1574.jpg)
Out for another annealing, then another bend:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rlllhnl5j/IMG_1576.jpg)
The front took the shape well, finished off with a few mallet taps with a wood block over the metal to prevent dents. Back out for another re-heat, and got the back curves tighter in:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/u2xcowpmf/IMG_1577.jpg)
The overlap was marked, then used a hacksaw to take off the extra length, cleaned it up on the edge of the belt sander:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/p49uaegon/IMG_1579.jpg)
Slid the part off the form, it holds the shape pretty well, little bit of springback:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6bxz6sx53/IMG_1580.jpg)
For strength, I think I will silver solder the seam. There are several cross-bars that will span the joint, those will get rivetted and solft soldered in place, but I don't want to risk the joint popping open later on, so the silver solder should do the trick. If there is any sign of the joint, a little JB weld and filing should blend it in nicely.
To hold the joint tight for soldering, I am going to make up a couple of short clamp blocks (just u-shapes with screws) to span the joint, if that happens to get silver soldered in place, it will be easy to trim them off.  Then I can start in on the next layers of banding and cross bars, using the wood form to hold everything in the mill vise for trimming to shape....
Nice to be back cutting metal again!  :cartwheel:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 13, 2017, 08:47:21 PM
Continuing on with the initial piece of the dipper bucket, made up a couple little clamps to hold the joint in place for silver soldering. First milled a slot in a bit of square stock:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/70bf3c8c7/IMG_1582.jpg)
and drilled/tapped a pair of holes in each, before sawing the two clamps apart:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/cbqbo2hk7/IMG_1583.jpg)
Here are the clamps in action, tightened down the screw on one side of each, pressed the bucket shell together while tightening the other two. Had to go back and file off a couple of burs to get the two halves to seat tightly.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tp0m2wxfr/IMG_1584.jpg)
And the shell after silver soldering it outside - put the solder on the outside of the joint while heating from inside, looks like it penetrated very well.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/d1940fadz/IMG_1585.jpg)
The clamps did not get soldered on, fortunately - remembered too late that I have some Nicrobraze that I should have put on first to prevent that, but got lucky that the flux and solder did not flow over that far.  Its taking a bath in some pickle for now. When that is done I can start on the banding that goes around the top/bottom ends, then mill the ends to shape. The bottom is flat, the top gets an angled notch to give the top forward end a better bite into the ground. The banding will be rivetted/soft soldered in place.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on December 14, 2017, 03:14:33 AM
And so it begins!  :popcorn:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on December 14, 2017, 03:47:46 AM
It's gonna be a long movie... :whoohoo:

 :popcorn: :popcorn:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 14, 2017, 03:47:59 AM
Good start Chris :ThumbsUp: The journey has begun.  :whoohoo:

I think using brass is a better way to go. Much stronger when you start digging that miniature Panama Canel in your backyard!  :naughty:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 14, 2017, 03:56:02 AM
Thanks guys!


Definitely going to be a long movie, think Peter Jackson and a Tolkien story!


Hmm, I have the RC boats, a canal would be useful to get to the neighbors pool!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on December 14, 2017, 06:48:49 AM
Thanks guys!


Definitely going to be a long movie, think Peter Jackson and a Tolkien story!


Hmm, I have the RC boats, a canal would be useful to get to the neighbors pool!!

Now that's thinking like a true Robber Baron!!!

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: pp2076 on December 14, 2017, 10:17:42 AM
Hi Chris,

As you know already I have been inspired by your recent work on the very successful Lombard and now the Marion Shovel.

Your 3D drawings in Fusion 360 give a great example of what can be achieved with realistic and detailed illustrations of the workings of these rather complex machines. I am still working with my thoughts on Ruston-Bucyrus Shovels which in many ways are similar to Marion's products.

It seems that much of the original information on the R-B designs has been lost along with those of Ruston & Hornsby as a result of the takeovers by English Electric and then Siemens, neither of which were likely to have an interest in shovels. However I am still collecting whatever I can find, including various sources which have found their way to the Antipodes.

I have been a user of Autodesk Inventor for some time and I want to compare the results from that very expensive programme with your work with the free ( for hobbyists) Fusion 360 which originates from the same software house.  I wonder whether Inventor which has all sorts of bells and whistles but was 'invented' some years ago would perform as well as Fusion 360 which surely must have more up-to-date origins. :headscratch:

Sorry to hijack your thread.
Jerry
Beware: Fusion 360 is only free to hobbyists for a year. After that they charge like a wounded bull
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ozzie46 on December 14, 2017, 12:35:37 PM
Great work Chris.

 I've had Fusion 360 since it became avaiable and have never been charged a cent. Totally free for us hobby guys.


Ron
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 14, 2017, 01:34:07 PM
Hi Chris,

As you know already I have been inspired by your recent work on the very successful Lombard and now the Marion Shovel.

Your 3D drawings in Fusion 360 give a great example of what can be achieved with realistic and detailed illustrations of the workings of these rather complex machines. I am still working with my thoughts on Ruston-Bucyrus Shovels which in many ways are similar to Marion's products.

It seems that much of the original information on the R-B designs has been lost along with those of Ruston & Hornsby as a result of the takeovers by English Electric and then Siemens, neither of which were likely to have an interest in shovels. However I am still collecting whatever I can find, including various sources which have found their way to the Antipodes.

I have been a user of Autodesk Inventor for some time and I want to compare the results from that very expensive programme with your work with the free ( for hobbyists) Fusion 360 which originates from the same software house.  I wonder whether Inventor which has all sorts of bells and whistles but was 'invented' some years ago would perform as well as Fusion 360 which surely must have more up-to-date origins. :headscratch:

Sorry to hijack your thread.
Jerry
Beware: Fusion 360 is only free to hobbyists for a year. After that they charge like a wounded bull
Not true about fusion. I've been using it for 2 years, no charge. They explicitly state it is free for hobbyist use with no time limit. They no longer even require you to re-register each year.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: b.lindsey on December 14, 2017, 04:26:38 PM
Well even if no real "chips" yes, there is at least some brass sawdust  :).  Nice start on the bucket Chris!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 14, 2017, 05:27:23 PM
Well even if no real "chips" yes, there is at least some brass sawdust  :) .  Nice start on the bucket Chris!!

Bill
Well, aren't sawdust chips still swarf? They would be off a slitting saw in the mill, right?  :headscratch:

Some 'real' chips will be made as soon as I start drilling the holes in the parts and mill off the shapes on the end!

Wait! There WAS some milling already, making the little clamps for silver soldering! Yes!   :stickpoke:

Off to the shop to cut the banding pieces for the top/bottom of the shell...

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 14, 2017, 06:33:13 PM
Cut the strips for the bands around the sides/front, annealed them mand bent into shape using the shell as a form. The last few degrees of the bend were tweaked in using pliers till a good fit was reached. Next I'll start drilling/riveting them in place with some small brass rivets.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/j7k7i17qf/IMG_1588.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on December 14, 2017, 07:06:55 PM
Now the initial work looks great, but, I have to admit that with all the talk of snow ( and the season) all I could think about was mint chocolate chip cookies and vanilla bean hot cocoa  8) :lolb:

Y’all stay warm
Cletus
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: mal webber on December 14, 2017, 07:11:18 PM
And the build as began  :popcorn: :DrinkPint:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 14, 2017, 07:12:17 PM
Now the initial work looks great, but, I have to admit that with all the talk of snow ( and the season) all I could think about was mint chocolate chip cookies and vanilla bean hot cocoa  8) :lolb:

Y’all stay warm
Cletus

Mmmmmmm!!!    :LickLips:

Don't forget the lemon/sugar christmas cookies! Womped up a batch of those last week... Yum!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on December 14, 2017, 07:14:40 PM
Don’t tell me you sprinkle them with raw sugar crystals, you know, the ones that have a bit of a yellowish tint  :stickpoke:

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 14, 2017, 07:15:42 PM
And the build as began  :popcorn: :DrinkPint:

Yes, great to be spending more time in the shop again rather than at the keyboard! Though I did have to come back to the 3D design briefly, I was setting up to drill the rivet holes, and something just did not look right. Checked the photos of the real bucket again, and realized that I had extended the bands too far down the sides - they should stop a bit before/after the center point at top/bottom. Just corrected that, need to trim the bands now. At least I caught it BEFORE drilling and attaching them! 
 :embarassed:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 14, 2017, 07:18:00 PM
Don’t tell me you sprinkle them with raw sugar crystals, you know, the ones that have a bit of a yellowish tint  :stickpoke:

Cletus
Well, there are yellow, blue, green, and red sugar sprinkles - need something to decorate the confectioners sugar/water topping! I throw more lemon into that topping as well, very tasty!

Hope you are not using the yellow snow...   :stickpoke:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 14, 2017, 08:28:33 PM
The first batch of rivets are in to hold those two bands on the bucket shell. Clamped the bands to the shell, and held the wood form in the mill vise to do the drilling.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/c9g3bt6yf/IMG_1589.jpg)
After the first couple holes were drilled, put in the rivets and removed the clamp so the other holes could be drilled. Same on the other band. The holes in the top of the upper band are lowered since the top will be milled off at an angle later on.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/g5tf7sznr/IMG_1591.jpg)
There are no rivets along the front of the bands yet - those will go in with the bases for the teeth are made, since they extend down the inside all the way to the bottom of the bucket. I think they did it that way to both stiffen the front of the bucket, and to keep the teeth from getting twisted from the force of digging.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on December 14, 2017, 08:36:27 PM
On the model subject: this one looks to be of larger size than the Lombard. On the cookie subject: Grandma Douglas always dusted her Christmas shortbread cookies with raw cane sugar. Under candle light on her dessert table, they had the most wonderful warm glow  :old:.

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 14, 2017, 08:55:22 PM
On the model subject: this one looks to be of larger size than the Lombard. On the cookie subject: Grandma Douglas always dusted her Christmas shortbread cookies with raw cane sugar. Under candle light on her dessert table, they had the most wonderful warm glow  :old: .

Cletus
The models are a different scale - the Lombard was at 1:12, the Shay and this model are both 1:16 scale. The shovel itself is much larger than the Lombard is in real life though, so the model will be larger. The Lombard is approximately 30' long, the steam shovel is nearly 74' long overall, including the dipper bucket at a medium angle. The Lombard is around 19 tons, the shovel wieghs in at 120 tons!

Now I understand what you meant about dusting the cookies, that is different than mine, which have the larger crystal sugars embedded in a hardened frosting layer. Both ways are great!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 14, 2017, 10:25:06 PM
One more bit for the afternoon - put on the strip underneath the top one at the front, that just goes around the corner then ends with a curved section. I thought about making it part of the top bar, but didn't have a wide enough piece so made it in two sections. Some soft solder or JB weld will fair it in and make it look like one piece. The color difference is due the heating to anneal it, going to give it all a dunk in the pickle and a good scouring to clean it all up.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/k7aidemsn/IMG_1593.jpg)

Next up is the two vertical bars on the back edge that have the attachment points to the boom, as well as three horizontal bars that tie it all in to the bucket shell. Those horizontal bars will be some fiddly filing work to make them sit flush where they wrap around the back curves. Or, may bend them and file the outside edges down, that may be easier. Enough for one day though!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on December 15, 2017, 07:50:39 AM
Don’t tell me you sprinkle them with raw sugar crystals, you know, the ones that have a bit of a yellowish tint  :stickpoke:

Cletus
Well, there are yellow, blue, green, and red sugar sprinkles - need something to decorate the confectioners sugar/water topping! I throw more lemon into that topping as well, very tasty!

Hope you are not using the yellow snow...   :stickpoke:

Hang about!!

You know the rules around here......

 :pics: :pics:

Oh & crumbs DONT count!

 :lolb:

Cheers Kerrin
 
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 15, 2017, 01:52:00 PM
Don’t tell me you sprinkle them with raw sugar crystals, you know, the ones that have a bit of a yellowish tint  :stickpoke:

Cletus
Well, there are yellow, blue, green, and red sugar sprinkles - need something to decorate the confectioners sugar/water topping! I throw more lemon into that topping as well, very tasty!

Hope you are not using the yellow snow...   :stickpoke:

Hang about!!

You know the rules around here......

 :pics: :pics:

Oh & crumbs DONT count!

 :lolb:

Cheers Kerrin
Okay Kerrin, (chew, crunch), okay (munch munch)... Here is a photo of the dipper bucket digging up some of the cookies!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/pwr7hfx5j/IMG_1595.jpg)
 :ROFL:
And, in the spirit of completeness, here is how the sea turtle submarine wood forms are coming along...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/f9xec0wpz/IMG_1596.jpg)
Still need to carve the rear flipper and tail forms, detail them, then I can get them sealed up (seal, get it?) to take the molds from them.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 15, 2017, 06:54:57 PM
A little more done on the dipper bucket this afternoon, started by drilling the holes in the sides where the pivot pins for the yoke will go through (the yoke spans the bucket, and holds the chain pulley that hoists the bucket up and down).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ae3evc56f/IMG_1597.jpg)
The holes were laid out on either side, drilled partway through on the first side, and they actually met up perfectly in the middle when the second hole was drilled.
 :cartwheel:
These holes will be used during the rest of the milling/drilling operations to keep the bucket shell from shifting with a through-bolt. I made up a piece of brass rod for the center, threaded at each end for a bolt, and a pair of snug-fitting spacers to protect the edges of the hole and to keep the bolts from wobbling in the openings. The spacers are threaded also.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/64yot69mv/IMG_1598.jpg)
Here the through bolt is in place, locking the shell to the wood form nicely:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/sgwhmkggn/IMG_1599.jpg)
The next step is to fit the cross braces on the back side of the bucket. There are three of these, and the vertical bars will be notched to fit these and lock everything in place. I decided it would be easiest to bend some 1/8" bar into shape for the back of the bucket (annealed and bent cold, took two heats for the first one). The outer ends will be taken to the belt sander to thin the ends down, and blend the outer part of the curve to the sides of the bucket. I had considered taking the whole shape out of a wider bar, but this seemed much quicker and easier.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qcc4lhmjr/IMG_1600.jpg)
So, a little more blacksmithing to do, um, guess it is yellow-smithing for brass, to make the other two cross bars, then I will start on the vertical bars, which hold the ends of the brackets to hold the bucket to the boom and also the hinge for the lower lid.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on December 15, 2017, 08:31:22 PM
Hi Chris,
 Biscuits look very tasty! Turtle is coming on, going to be fun seeing the video of him / her in action :stickpoke:
Nice progress on the bucket,  :popcorn: :popcorn:

Had a bit of rain the last couple of days, so I can splash out on a double helping of  :popcorn:

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 15, 2017, 10:49:49 PM
Thanks Kerrin!

One more thing done today after bending the other two cross beams, laid out and cut the notches in them to take the vertical bars, which will have matching notches so that they sit flush. The cross beams were clamped together on the bucket so that they were properly lined up, then moved over to the mill for cutting.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fom5rtypj/IMG_1602.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/6gtxb5esn/IMG_1603.jpg)
The vertical bars will be up next...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: fumopuc on December 16, 2017, 05:26:58 PM
Hi Chris, a great pleasure to follow your new project.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 16, 2017, 06:29:06 PM
Hi Chris, a great pleasure to follow your new project.
Thanks Achim, nice to have you along!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 16, 2017, 08:25:50 PM
Got working on the vertical bars that go on the back side of the dipper bucket, to reinforce it and to provide attachment points for the bottom lid and the boom. Started with a pair of 3/8" square bars that had been stress-relieved in the oven at 500F for an hour and left to cool, then drilled the cross holes and then squared up the ends with a mill.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/p20zka0br/IMG_1604.jpg)
Second step was to mill the slots to half-lap over the horizontal bars:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/w58uzwdh3/IMG_1605.jpg)
then turned the bars over and started taking away the excess on the other side, to leave the attachment lugs. Dirst the section at the ends:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/y9t80zmtj/IMG_1606.jpg)
then the part in the middle:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4hw5lt7pz/IMG_1607.jpg)
The section at the top of the bars is angled:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fhhcxf5uv/IMG_1608.jpg)
Then the bottom/middle lugs got thier sides angled at 45 degrees:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/nzqt1rk3b/IMG_1609.jpg)
last section needed the parts turned over to leave room to hold them:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8e9hhtfuv/IMG_1610.jpg)
And here is why the stress relieving step is important - without it, the bars would look like bananas at this point. When they roll out the shapes, the outer surfaces get compressed and build up stresses. If you cut away one side of the bar, it will curve towards that side. With the bake in the oven, the stresses get worked out without effecting the hardness much, handy trick that works with brass alloys. This does not work the same with steels - each steel alloy has different behaviors, you have to look them up to see what if anything can be done. For brass, which only work hardens and will not harden with heat, this method works quite well.
The slight gap you see in this photo is just how the bars laid down on the mat - when held together they laid dead straight together.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/x7j1ih6l3/IMG_1611.jpg)
Last step for the day was to cut the slots in two of the lugs - at the top to take the angled braces back to the boom, and the middle one to take the hinge bars from the bottom lid. The fitting on the end of the dipper boom goes between the lugs at the bottom, so no slots needed there.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/f4pyr9ig7/IMG_1612.jpg)
Here are the vertical bars so far. They need to have the bases slimmed down, leaving the lugs wider. Good place to break for the day...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6z7wt41x3/IMG_1613.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: mal webber on December 16, 2017, 10:57:18 PM
Nice work very interesting
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 17, 2017, 08:50:54 PM
Today I got the vertical bars for the bucket slimmed down outside of the lower attachment lugs, all fits together nicely:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dr8fpxo1j/IMG_1614.jpg)
I attached the vertical bars to the shell with three 3/32" rivets each. The vertical bars hold the horizontal ones in place with the half-laps. Then, went around and ran in a little soft solder on all the joints, partly to tie everything together permenantly but mostly to give the inside corners of the joints that slightly rounded cast look, since the shell was cast in one large piece, with just a few added-on bands and fittings.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/58yzllp8n/IMG_1616.jpg)
The ends of the horizontal bars were also taken in flush to the bucket sides with the belt sander, to match the shape of the originals. Then, marked out for the angled top line of the bucket:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3txewvvvb/IMG_1620.jpg)
The top angles down towards the back edge, then will go back up again where it ties in to the vertical bars. Here is the next spot where the wood former will come in useful, to hold the bucket in the mill vise for this next step.
I took a look at the reach on the Sherline, and quickly decided this was a good time to try out the new (to me) Grizzly mini-mill that I bought from a friends estate recently. But, then things slowed down, as I was turning it on to make the first cut. I had forgotten that these mills prefer to be started with the speed control turned all the way down, then taken up to speed when running. They REALLY prefer it, as the quick pop of the fuse reminded me (the Sherlines dont care, they will start at any setting, and I have that habit deeply ingrained in the little gray cells).
And of course I had no spare fuses that size, so off to the hardware store to buy a handfull of them (to cover the next few times I forget about the speed control).
Once back, milling the side edges to that angle went cleanly, the mini mill worked fine and had enough reach to to the side in one setup. I did change out the original 1/16" per turn feedscrews (STUPID design decision they made) with the 0.050/turn replacements from Little Machine Shop, which match the advance on the Sherline so I don't have to retrain that part of the brain also.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kugb5koc7/IMG_1623.jpg)
The first side was done, then the vise reset to the complementary angle and the part turned over for the other side. Here it is so far, ready to set it up to do the back edge:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6o0kac5rb/IMG_1624.jpg)
The front edge just needs a light roundover, will probably do that with the belt sander. The back edge will need a different setup, the wood former will be angled up in the vise to mill that.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: b.lindsey on December 17, 2017, 10:56:03 PM
That is really looking the part Chris. Very nice work.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 17, 2017, 11:44:02 PM
That is really looking the part Chris. Very nice work.

Bill
Thanks Bill, looking forward to scooping up popcorn with it while watching all the other builds here on the forum!

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jo on December 18, 2017, 08:35:00 AM
Thanks Bill, looking forward to scooping up popcorn with it while watching all the other builds here on the forum!

 :thinking: I was wondering about that. I am assuming once it is done that you might be tempted to do a bit of digging with it  :naughty: . Have you thought about how the paint on the brass will hold up to the abuse of digging something with hard gritty/lumpy bits.

Jo
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jasonb on December 18, 2017, 09:12:49 AM
I don't look for a couple of days and you are well into the build and making fast progress.

Don't think any digger buckets I have seen keep their paint on for long so having it scrape off will be in scale just the base colour of the metal will be a slight give away, suppose you could do a bit of home nickle plating if it bothered you.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 18, 2017, 02:12:33 PM
Maybe I can get the bucket powder coated? That would hold up better, wouldn't it? Or maybe a thin coat of truck bedliner?
Might just have to stick to digging in a pile of M&M's!!

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jo on December 18, 2017, 02:32:26 PM
There is a blackening stuff for brass but most of those sort of things are easily scratched off  :(

M&M's or popcorn shouldn't do any harm :popcorn:

Jo
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: b.lindsey on December 18, 2017, 02:43:58 PM
The powder coating option may be just the trick Chris. Good excuse to get the stuff to do it yourself too if you don't already have it :)

Bill
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 18, 2017, 02:56:02 PM
Great progress Chris.  :ThumbsUp:

What model Grizzly is that you have? It'll be interesting to see how much it gets used compared to your Sherline mill.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 18, 2017, 03:19:36 PM
Great progress Chris.  :ThumbsUp:

What model Grizzly is that you have? It'll be interesting to see how much it gets used compared to your Sherline mill.

Jim
Its the G8689 mill, the original owner had added the alternate column lifter assist from LMS, I changed the feedscrews to the .050/turn version. I got it to handle the parts that needed extra reach, like this bucket, and the larger gears (which I had to extend the Sherline bed to handle). I am so comfortable with the Sherline that it will stay my main machine, but it will be interesting to see if that changes. The left/right travel on the bed is not that much different, but the in/out reach is quite a bit larger, even though the travel that way is not that different. I also got an adapter to let it take the Sherline headstock thread, like on the mill holder and chucks.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dave Otto on December 18, 2017, 05:26:44 PM
The powder coat cure temperature is pretty much the same as melting point of the solder, that is unless they have some out with materials that cure at a lower temperature, you would most likely end up with a pile of pieces. I went down that road one time with a bent wire guard that I had made for one of my hot air fans.

Off to a great start! the bucket looks nice Chris.

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 18, 2017, 06:11:43 PM
The powder coat cure temperature is pretty much the same as melting point of the solder, that is unless they have some out with materials that cure at a lower temperature, you would most likely end up with a pile of pieces. I went down that road one time with a bent wire guard that I had made for one of my hot air fans.

Off to a great start! the bucket looks nice Chris.

Dave
Thanks Dave, I was just looking up powder coat kits and had the same worry - the shell is silver soldered at the main seam, but the smaller bits have soft wolder to form the rounded inside corners, and that could be an issue.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 18, 2017, 06:38:44 PM
This morning I got the rest of the top edges milled down to the angled shape of the original, the wood former is working out great as a way to hold it at different angles in the mill vise (secure as long as the shank is square and parallel sided). Started with the back edge:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kw4hnlb93/IMG_1626.jpg)
Then took a light pass along the front edge to blend it into the sides better:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/vvpoz79dz/IMG_1627.jpg)
Now, is it just me, or does this shape remind me of the old robot toys:
 :Lol:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wzeeov1ef/Robots.jpg)
Last step was to take the tops of the vertical bars down to final shape:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/iesqgcehz/IMG_1630.jpg)
Next up will be to give the bucket some teeth. The teeth along the front edge have replaceable tips, and they extend almost all the way down the inside (presumably to stiffen that section more)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6r39zk9lz/DSC_6771.jpg)
and just partway down on the outside:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/otwcqrxqv/IMG_1562.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: RonGinger on December 18, 2017, 08:55:22 PM
I can confirm that powder coat, at least the kit supplied by Harbor Freight will melt lead solder. when I got my kit I made several test pieces and the soldered ones collapsed in the oven.

It also did not do well inside objects the static charge used to stick on the powder is shielded by the outside.

I have found very little use for powder coat. I was going to try to fuse it to metal with a 40 watt co2 laser for a kind of color engraving, but I sold the laser before I got around to trying it.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 18, 2017, 09:31:31 PM
I can confirm that powder coat, at least the kit supplied by Harbor Freight will melt lead solder. when I got my kit I made several test pieces and the soldered ones collapsed in the oven.

It also did not do well inside objects the static charge used to stick on the powder is shielded by the outside.

I have found very little use for powder coat. I was going to try to fuse it to metal with a 40 watt co2 laser for a kind of color engraving, but I sold the laser before I got around to trying it.
Good to know, figured it would have problems with the solder, but wasn't sure.


Nice thing about spray paint, real easy to touch up parts after some use!


Somewhere around here I have a can of bedliner type spray, assuming it didn't get tossed in a cleanout spree. Curious to see how thick that goes pn and how well it sticks to brass....


I got a start on the bucket teeth, got square bar cut to length, trimmed for width, and started notching the base, more on that tomorrow, with pictures...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on December 18, 2017, 10:16:39 PM
I've found that paint sticks to brass much better if the material is pickled before painting. A good strong etch! Then a light dusting of zinc chromate primer.

That bucket sure does look good, Chris, and it looks big enough to handle a cold one...   :DrinkPint:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: wagnmkr on December 18, 2017, 10:46:48 PM
I go away for a week or two, and when I get back I see you are almost ready to dig ... well, with the bucket anyway! I can see you now, outside in the snow, filling and dumping the bucket and making steam shovel noises :ROFL: BE CAREFUL ... The Fun Police are out full strength this time of year.

Tom
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 18, 2017, 11:01:52 PM
I've found that paint sticks to brass much better if the material is pickled before painting. A good strong etch! Then a light dusting of zinc chromate primer.

That bucket sure does look good, Chris, and it looks big enough to handle a cold one...   :DrinkPint:

Pete
Nice tip, thanks! I'll give that a try on the bucket. Don't think I have any zinc chromate, have to pick some up if not.

Its not quite tall enough for a full beer and it has no bottom, plus a set of dribble-glass holes in the sides... Guess I'll stick to the mug!
 :DrinkPint:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 18, 2017, 11:03:32 PM
I go away for a week or two, and when I get back I see you are almost ready to dig ... well, with the bucket anyway! I can see you now, outside in the snow, filling and dumping the bucket and making steam shovel noises :ROFL: BE CAREFUL ... The Fun Police are out full strength this time of year.

Tom
Rats! I thought no one was looking! Webcams are everywhere!    :ROFL:
Going to be fun once it is on the dipper boom!  Scooping, flinging, as well as an industrial-strength backscratcher once the teeth are on!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 18, 2017, 11:22:12 PM
Speaking of the bucket teeth, got a little more done on them after dinner. Here are the blanks getting the lower ends narrowed down, like I described earlier.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/e3dbj7c6f/IMG_1631.jpg)
and cutting the slots where the upper end slips over the bucket edge. Made these slots a snug slip fit over the bucket - the outer two needed a slightly wider slot since the bucket wall curves more there.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4itowazp3/IMG_1632.jpg)
The teeth all test fit - had to file the ends of the slots to match the top of the bucket rim. I have sketched in the tooth base tip and the tooth tip on the first one, the bars are left long for now. You can see how on the inside, the teeth go most of the way to the bottom. Those parts will be tapered and rounded somewhat on the belt sander.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/j20txpl47/IMG_1635.jpg)
View from the front. The front corners wil be rounded off, and the bottom ends trimmed to final length.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gkp2qggnb/IMG_1636.jpg)
One other thing I finally found in the photos from the real shovel - I had been wondering how they kept the yoke pivot pin in place. It looked like the inner end was flareed somewhat, like the head of a pan head screw, but I had not seen how they held it from sliding back into the bucket, and had figured on some sort of cotter pin, which they used in lots of other pivot pins. Finally spotted this detail in one of my photos, there is a slot in the bracket that holds the pin on the outer side of the yoke, with a wedge that goes into a slot in the side of the pin. The hole below that probably had a set screw to lock the wedge in place. Yet another detail I missed while there, but the photos gave me an easy extra look (gotta love digital cameras - too bad the ones I worked on never made it to market).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rkaa22es7/DSC_6768.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 90LX_Notch on December 19, 2017, 01:14:29 AM
Wow, I didn't check this thread for a little bit and wham, parts are being produced at lighting speed. 

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 19, 2017, 01:19:39 AM
Wow, I didn't check this thread for a little bit and wham, parts are being produced at lighting speed. 

-Bob
Been getting that reaction a lot this week! Research and drawing stage finally over, time to make the swarf fly!
 :cartwheel:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jasonb on December 19, 2017, 08:36:36 AM
There is no stopping him :o

I wonder if the likes of powder coat and bed liner would just be a bit on the thick side even if they could be baked on and you would loose a lot of detail.

Maybe one of the firearms coatings like Gun-Kote would be better, think that can be baked at about 250F so should be under your solder temp. I seen it get good reports for hit & miss engines but not tried it as it contains something we can't use here.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 19, 2017, 06:44:16 PM
There is no stopping him :o

I wonder if the likes of powder coat and bed liner would just be a bit on the thick side even if they could be baked on and you would loose a lot of detail.

Maybe one of the firearms coatings like Gun-Kote would be better, think that can be baked at about 250F so should be under your solder temp. I seen it get good reports for hit & miss engines but not tried it as it contains something we can't use here.
According to their website, the bake temperature is 300 to 325F (they do have several versions, may be a lower temp one). I know some people that may have used it, have to check with them on their experiences on how it wears. Not sure I'd want to use something that requires baking at all, unless I picked up a small portable oven - not the kind of thing I want to use in the kitchen oven!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 19, 2017, 06:49:44 PM
Some more dental work being done (on the bucket, not me this time!). I did some belt sanding to round/taper the bases, then marked out and sawed out the shape of the teeth from the bases, then drilled/tapped for a 0-80 screw to hold the tips on:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/yj6gphwo7/IMG_1639.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/buh9pxn07/IMG_1640.jpg)
Here they are set in place on the bucket:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/jn7xhx0p3/IMG_1643.jpg)
Next step will be to drill through the shell and tooth bases, and rivet them in place. They had a vertical row of rivets down each of the bases, so will do the same on the model. I'll need to notch the wood former to allow it to slide past the tooth bases on the inside. After that, will get started on the yoke brackets that attach to the sides over the pivot pin holes, then make the latch plate that secures the bottom lid (got to look up the right term for that, 'lid' does not seem right for something on the bottom of a container).
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jo on December 19, 2017, 06:56:17 PM
.... that secures the bottom lid (got to look up the right term for that, 'lid' does not seem right for something on the bottom of a container).

Rear door  ::)

Jo
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 19, 2017, 07:10:24 PM
.... that secures the bottom lid (got to look up the right term for that, 'lid' does not seem right for something on the bottom of a container).

Rear door  ::)

Jo
Just been off looking up the dipper bucket in the old Marion catalogs and patents, and apparently 'dipper door' or just 'door' is the term they used. So, close Jo, but(t) it gave a kick out the 'door' to the 'rear' part!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on December 19, 2017, 08:14:33 PM
Funny, I would have thought that "drop" would have been in there somewhere.  Like "drop door" or "drop hatch", but there I go - thinking again.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 20, 2017, 01:21:04 AM
Funny, I would have thought that "drop" would have been in there somewhere.  Like "drop door" or "drop hatch", but there I go - thinking again.

Don
At least it was not "dumperflapper" or something like that!


 :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 20, 2017, 04:32:13 AM
Funny, I would have thought that "drop" would have been in there somewhere.  Like "drop door" or "drop hatch", but there I go - thinking again.

Don
At least it was not "dumperflapper" or something like that!


 :Lol:

I vote for "Blid" for "bottom lid".  :)  Well it seemed like a good idea!  :shrug:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on December 20, 2017, 07:37:37 AM
Hi Chris,
 You can get “cold blackening “ solutions, not sure how robust it would be digging M&M’s

The bucket is looking sweet!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on December 20, 2017, 02:55:10 PM
I used some cold gun blue years back, don't remember if it worked on brass though.
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on December 20, 2017, 03:01:37 PM
If you plan on sampling the M&M's after they've been "mined" with the bucket it might not be a bad idea to seal it with a clear non-toxic finish - no matter what treatment you use to "finish" the bucket.  We're twitchy enough already, don't need any chemical enhancements for that.  The added advantages to a clear finish are that will it make the bucket finish more robust and require less polishing of the brass in the future.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on December 20, 2017, 04:47:34 PM
I used some cold gun blue years back, don't remember if it worked on brass though.
Gerald.

Several manufacturers make a Brass Blackening solution.  A few years back I tested out two products; one called "Blacken-It" and the other "Birchwood Casey Brass Black."  In my experiment, I found the Birchwood Casey Brass Black to give me more consistent results, and a darker black color.  But neither were very scratch resistant.  I sprayed them with a clear matte finish to help provide some resistance, which helped.

Not sure a cold blackening will be a super robust solution, but it might hold up to M&Ms. :)

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 20, 2017, 06:19:10 PM
I've also tried the brass blackening solutions, okay for small parts but tough to get consistent results on larger areas, especially if solder joints are present. I think I will stick with paint, easy to touch up with the auto paints.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: b.lindsey on December 20, 2017, 06:49:06 PM
Chris, there used to be a product (if forget the brand name) but it was called stove polish. If you can find an old mom and pop type hardware store they might have some. Its a very flat black though and I guess, as the name implies, it was used to refurbish old wood burning pot bellied stoves and kitchen stoves/ovens as well. Just a thought.

Bill

Edit: The picture below is what I remember. It has probably been replaced by more modern versions though.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jasonb on December 20, 2017, 06:58:20 PM
The Gun Kote is a paint, I think it is 2hrs bake at 350 or 3hrs at the lower temp I mentioned.

I get away with baking the exhaust paint for the hit & miss engines in the oven at home :) Does not seem to taint the food the next time the oven is used

Don't worry about the metal or paint on the M&Ms its the taste of all that steam oil and coal smuts that will be flying about that you need to think about :-[
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 20, 2017, 07:13:22 PM
Chris, there used to be a product (if forget the brand name) but it was called stove polish. If you can find an old mom and pop type hardware store they might have some. Its a very flat black though and I guess, as the name implies, it was used to refurbish old wood burning pot bellied stoves and kitchen stoves/ovens as well. Just a thought.

Bill

Edit: The picture below is what I remember. It has probably been replaced by more modern versions though.
At Mom&Pop hardware stores? Wow, none of those left around here, unfortunately, the last of them retired off two years ago, the big box stores killed off most of them a long time ago. My mom shops at Amazon a lot now...  :Lol:

I looked up the stove polishes, they are still made, and are a black pigment in a wax base, only sticks on unpainted areas, and is not really meant for high friction areas.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 20, 2017, 07:17:48 PM
The Gun Kote is a paint, I think it is 2hrs bake at 350 or 3hrs at the lower temp I mentioned.

I get away with baking the exhaust paint for the hit & miss engines in the oven at home :) Does not seem to taint the food the next time the oven is used

Don't worry about the metal or paint on the M&Ms its the taste of all that steam oil and coal smuts that will be flying about that you need to think about :-[
Yes, it is a paint, Brownells carries a version of it in spray cans that looks quite nice.

For this use, I think I'll be sticking with the spray paint solution, I've found the Duplicolor flat black auto lacquers cover very well, and take a touch-up spritz nicely - been using it on some of my RC subs, which when we show at shallow pools tend to get the strip along the bottom of the bow scraped on the bottom of the pool, that paint goes on very thin and retouches easily. They have a gray/black metallic that goes on kind of translucent, but when put on over the flat black it gives a cast-iron look that I like. Its what I used on the Lombard boiler nameplate (the full size one).
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 21, 2017, 07:30:21 PM
Back on the steam shovel today, but first a side-track for the current state of the sea-turtle submarine project, since some of you asked to be kept up to date on it. I have finished carving and seal coats on the masters for the molds, going to let them set up a couple of days (the rubber mold compounds don't like freshly sealed surfaces, sometimes can cause curing issues, so better safe than sorry). The main shell and the front of the head will be cast as seperate top/bottom pieces in fiberglass, while the neck/flippers/tail will be cast in a flexible platinum-cure silicone rubber so that they can flex with the underlying cable-driven mechanism, so they look realistic rather than having obvious hinge points. The skeletal structure of a sea turtle flipper looks a lot like a stretched out version of your hand, lots of short bones, rather than a long bone/joint like your leg.
Here are the wood mold masters so far:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/g17624l53/IMG_1651.jpg)
and a close up, showing the textured skin surface, mimicing what the real turtle has - looks like a combination of fish scales and skin. I am using mold compounds and rubber casting material from Smooth-On, using their platinum-cure line which is a two-part silicone rubber, unlike the bathroom-caulk type of silicone you get at the hardware store which is single part and cures by outgassing acetic acid. They have versions for making the molds, and more flexible ones used commonly in movie makeup, including ones you can mix in pigments to paint on colors. Clever stuff. Expensive, but very good.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fofrvyal3/IMG_1652.jpg)
The red color you can see in places on the shell is the auto body filler I used to smooth out some of the glue seams and other dings/scratches left from the carving.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 21, 2017, 07:36:07 PM
Okay, back to the steam shovel build. The next parts up are the brackets that hold the large pivot pins which will hold the yoke that the bucket hangs from. I am making these out of some 303 stainless steel, had a block of that the right width/thickness, so I cut off two narrow strips and squared up the sides to size on the mill:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ukeb3or6f/IMG_1647.jpg)
then cut in the notch that will leave space for the yoke at the top (this section will get more shaping later)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bs2g03n2f/IMG_1648.jpg)
then turned them over (doing each operation on both parts before going on to the next step) and cut in the slots on the lower end.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4c36earnb/IMG_1650.jpg)
Got that done on one part, need to do likewise on the other, then will trim the ribs sticking up at an angle. Here is where this is going - the brackets are in the middle/upper area on the sides of the bucket, and will be riveted in place:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qosg73kd3/Dipper_Boom_And_Bucket.png)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 21, 2017, 09:42:32 PM
Next step on the brackets was to recess the edge,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/j0e2pfpjb/IMG_1654.jpg)
and then taper the ribs down to the lower level
(https://s5.postimg.cc/j0e2pfpjb/IMG_1654.jpg)
followed by laying out and drilling the pivot pin hole (indexed off the top corner at the edge of the vise, to get both the same quickly)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/r5w4nm0xj/IMG_1656.jpg)
then mill the slot and side arcs at the same recess level as in the first step:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mk00f8zyv/IMG_1657.jpg)
That is a good breaking point for the day. The top end of the brackets need to be rounded over, will set up the rotary table to do that next time. Then with same setup, will use a 1/4-rounding bit to radius the top edges. In the meantime, here is the part set in place on the bucket:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tn7vuvsjr/IMG_1658.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on December 22, 2017, 06:40:11 AM
Nice work on the turtle there, Chris!

And the Bucket Bracket looks mighty fine too.  I really like how it's turning out!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 22, 2017, 05:57:14 PM
Nice work on the turtle there, Chris!

And the Bucket Bracket looks mighty fine too.  I really like how it's turning out!
Kim
Thanks Kim, I hope both wind up working well!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 22, 2017, 06:08:00 PM
Next step on the dipper bucket, finishing and attaching the yoke brackets. I went back and forth on how to hold the brackets to round the ends about the pivot pins, decided on this approach. I took a short offcut from a sail-track extrusion that was in the scrap bin (left over from the main sheet track on one of the boats), which already had some 1/4" holes (same as the pivot pin), and added a short length of 1/4" bar stock - the anodizing they put on the aluminum extrusion made it a perfect press fit. With that bar centered up in the 4-jaw chuck (did the centering on the lathe, then moved over to the mill), and the part clamped to the flanges on the extrusion, I first milled the corners off the end:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bwj8d48wn/IMG_1659.jpg)
and then swapped to a small rounding over bit, and did one more pass:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4gjyray1z/IMG_1661.jpg)
Then laid out and drilled the 5 rivet holes down each side of the base portion:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kesohfkk7/IMG_1662.jpg)
With the bracket centered up on a length of 1/4" rod and clamped in place, drilled the holes that were accessible, using the bracket itself as a drill guide for the bit, holding the bucket in place by hand on the mill table (with such a small bit there is not a lot of force on the part, so did not need to clamp it down). Did that on both brackets, then ran in the first rivets, removed the clamp, and drilled the remaining few holes.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/cytevnk07/IMG_1663.jpg)
Here is the first bracket in place - used the rivet former that I made during the Lombard build to put in all but the rivets in the upper corners, used a hammer on those since the former would not fit into that last corner.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6l4bse7ef/IMG_1666.jpg)
Now there is just the latch plate for the door to make and install, and the bucket shell will be ready to prime and paint. Then it will be 12 pieces down, about 3000 to go!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: mal webber on December 22, 2017, 09:30:26 PM
That bucket is looking really good.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 22, 2017, 10:00:02 PM
That bucket is looking really good.
Thanks Mal, looking forward to seeing it with the yoke and door on!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on December 23, 2017, 12:12:24 AM
Chris, are you going to finish Marion as a new girl or an experienced lady??

Wow!

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 23, 2017, 01:09:00 AM
Chris, are you going to finish Marion as a new girl or an experienced lady??

Wow!

Pete
I'm thinking new, black frame and booms, deep red siding, unpainted steel tracks, white lettering along the siding under the roof line like their old catalog shows.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on December 23, 2017, 01:58:11 AM
Nice!! Either new or well used but not abandoned. 

 :popcorn: :popcorn:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 23, 2017, 02:22:18 AM
Nice!! Either new or well used but not abandoned. 

 :popcorn: :popcorn:

Pete
Yeah, already have one like that!  Though it is likely to get better starting in the spring, with all the new attention.   :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 23, 2017, 03:10:50 AM
Chris.........the yoke bracket came out great as a .........................I can hardly say it....................."fake"  :LittleDevil: casting! Looks great on the bucket.  :ThumbsUp:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 23, 2017, 03:14:25 AM
Chris.........the yoke bracket came out great as a .........................I can hardly say it....................."fake"  :LittleDevil: casting! Looks great on the bucket.  :ThumbsUp:

Jim
Oh, great. Now some of those casting fondlers will be invading my shop!!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jo on December 23, 2017, 07:29:02 AM
Chris.........the yoke bracket came out great as a .........................I can hardly say it....................."fake"  :LittleDevil: casting! Looks great on the bucket.  :ThumbsUp:

Jim
Oh, great. Now some of those casting fondlers will be invading my shop!!   :Lol:

From bar stock does not make it a casting  :ShakeHead: Half of the pleasure in a casting is the expectation and the required fondling, and then the second challenge is the holding while machining, achieving the item from within its casting shape constraints. Bar stock is the easy to hold and make sure the items comes out of the middle ;) and as for those bar stock fondlers  :stickpoke:

Jo
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jasonb on December 23, 2017, 08:09:12 AM
Looking good as always, should have the bucket complete by years end at this rate.

I think the biggest advantage of being a barstock muncher and fabricator is that you can model whatever you want and not be restricted to subjects somebody else has done the donkey work on. Then there is the greater number of challenges actually making the part and the reward at the end when you can say it is all your own work.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jo on December 23, 2017, 08:39:40 AM
Then there is the greater number of challenges actually making the part and the reward at the end when you can say it is all your own work.

So you are telling every one that it is harder to make engines from bar stock than castings :lolb:

Jo
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jasonb on December 23, 2017, 10:27:33 AM
Definately and even more so if you start from scratch designing your own model.

If you want to carry on the discussion can you start a new thread and move these few posts there, shame to derail this one.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 23, 2017, 01:29:50 PM
I think its just two approaches to the same problem. Among many. I could just as well create my own mold patterns for these parts, and cast them or have them cast - I have the woodworking skills and tools, but not the knowledge or skills or equipment for casting. Interesting that to make the molds, you need to start (unless 3d printing the master) from bar stock, even if its wood!

One nice thing about starting from bar stock is the ease in holding the parts, no worries about rough or angled edges, that sort of thing. A lot depends on how fine a casting is done, have seen some that are wonderfully detailed and fine, others done with very coarse sand that are not much use. There are also differences in available alloys, etc.


I'm sure we could get a good thread about it all, just like the ongoing thermodynamics thread we split off.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 23, 2017, 06:33:12 PM
Back on the bucket, last part for the shell is the latch for the door. It sits in the middle of the bottom edge on the front, and takes a bar from the door that can be released by the secondary operator to dump the bucketfull of dirt/rock/salesmen/politcians/etc.  I started with a bar of 3/8" square bar stock, milled the opening where it fits over the bucket shell, and then tipped it up to mill the angled top faces:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/a5mvpgr7r/IMG_1671.jpg)
Then four small holes were drilled in the corners of the opening to mark the shape, and the middle was milled out:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6m0xznw7r/IMG_1674.jpg)
The front face got a further recess milled into it at the same time, extending below where the part will be cut off the larger bar. After cutting it off, the bottom edge was milled square, and the edges rounded on the belt sander.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6ysc5utx3/IMG_1675.jpg)
The rivet holes were drilled in the part:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/vfai0azsn/IMG_1676.jpg)
and then the part was used as a drill guide to do the holes through the bottom of the shell:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/93cp6xntz/IMG_1677.jpg)
With that, the bucket shelll is complete, and is currently down in the paint area getting a coat of primer. Next up will be the yoke, I think, then the door and its latch mechanism.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 23, 2017, 06:53:59 PM
Chris--I am following your build and am constantly amazed with the volume and quality of your work. It is always my first stop on any of the forums I attend.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 23, 2017, 06:56:27 PM
Chris--I am following your build and am constantly amazed with the volume and quality of your work. It is always my first stop on any of the forums I attend.---Brian
Thanks Brian - hope that someday we can meet up in person at one of the shows. Or if you fall in Lake Ontario and drift south? Nah, that would be a COLD trip!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on December 23, 2017, 07:13:05 PM
In the fairly near future, printing metal parts will be easier than either bar stock or castings.  In the meantime Chris is doing a helluva job, fueled by m&m's and cookies.

Despite the bucket, I'm still more impressed with the turtle.  I could make that bucket, but the turtle?  No way!   :noidea:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 23, 2017, 07:42:59 PM
In the fairly near future, printing metal parts will be easier than either bar stock or castings.  In the meantime Chris is doing a helluva job, fueled by m&m's and cookies.

Despite the bucket, I'm still more impressed with the turtle.  I could make that bucket, but the turtle?  No way!   :noidea:
40 years of carving shows? I thought it was one of the simpler carving projects. Horse heads are still one of the biggest challenges, an amazingly complex shape!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 23, 2017, 08:22:02 PM
A couple coats of primer and black spraypaint (automotive paints dry nice and fast, go on thin), and here we go - one Marion 91 steam shovel bucket shell!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mxa8nismv/IMG_1682.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/3s6zdrtef/IMG_1683.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/ud9i9bo1z/IMG_1684.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/h93xwnbfr/IMG_1686.jpg)
For reference, this is 4-3/4" tall, gonna be a big model!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Gas_mantle on December 23, 2017, 08:24:27 PM
Incredible work Chris  :)

If there was nothing in the photo to give a sense of scale I'd have thought it was the real thing.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: mal webber on December 23, 2017, 11:28:12 PM
That is looking good, what sort of size is this going to be if the bucket is 4-3/4 tall.

Mal.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 24, 2017, 12:21:54 AM
That is looking good, what sort of size is this going to be if the bucket is 4-3/4 tall.Mal.
It is 1:16 scale, with the dipper at a 45 degree angle, it will be 55" long and 21" to top of the main boom.
The cab is 7.5" wide, 11.5" tall, 37.4" long, and the span of the front tracks is 18.25".
Gonna be a big beast! I should have a contest to guess the final weight. To make it manageable to move, the front turntable, or maybe just the booms, will be removable. I want to make the cab skin removable too, for work and viewing the inside.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on December 24, 2017, 02:38:49 AM
That's right! Never block in something that will need access later. Never fails to make life interesting.....

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 24, 2017, 03:01:22 AM
Wow what a difference paint makes! Really made it come together.  :praise2: Well done.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on December 24, 2017, 06:35:53 AM
Chris, this will sound a bit over the top, but, why not make Marion 'ride-able'? She's big enough that one could sit on the house and operate the controls..... gads that would be fun!!!

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 24, 2017, 12:56:48 PM
Chris, this will sound a bit over the top, but, why not make Marion 'ride-able'? She's big enough that one could sit on the house and operate the controls..... gads that would be fun!!!

Pete
That would definitely be fun! A very slow ride, but fun! Your shop elves have been whispering in your ears as you sleep again, haven't they?!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 24, 2017, 01:00:26 PM
Wow what a difference paint makes! Really made it come together.  :praise2: Well done.

Jim
It's amazing how some parts look better as raw metal, others just pop when painted. This one shows a lot better with the paint.


As I get ready to make the yoke and chain pulley, realized that I better source the chain now, so I can match the pulleys to it. Gotta dig out the clock catalogs and see what they have...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 24, 2017, 03:54:01 PM
Did a bunch of checking around, and found a couple of possible chains to use, got some ordered to see how it is in person for exact size and strength. There are lots of choices in the jewelry chain market, in brass and stainless, and also some available (mostly in the smaller sizes) in the ship model markets.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 24, 2017, 04:50:59 PM
I came across this picture online, figured someone out there ought to build a herd of these to help Santa next year....
(https://s5.postimg.cc/a9h5p5qif/Reindeer.jpg)

Merry Christmas all!

:bandrock:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on December 24, 2017, 09:20:03 PM
Dog, Dog, Dog ......Wow man you have flipped me out. I haven’t been that active on here lately but
Chris your the Tops man that is some awesome fabrication Dog. I will be following this awesome built keep feeding them elf’s cookies are cheap..... :lolb:

Merry Christmas .......
 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 24, 2017, 10:16:27 PM
Dog, Dog, Dog ......Wow man you have flipped me out. I haven’t been that active on here lately but
Chris your the Tops man that is some awesome fabrication Dog. I will be following this awesome built keep feeding them elf’s cookies are cheap..... :lolb:

Merry Christmas .......
 :cheers:
Don
Thanks Don! Just went and shared another handful of cookies with the elves!


Have a great Christmas!

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: wagnmkr on December 24, 2017, 10:39:57 PM
I came across this picture online, figured someone out there ought to build a herd of these to help Santa next year....
(https://s5.postimg.org/a9h5p5qif/Reindeer.jpg)

Merry Christmas all!

:bandrock:

You should be done with the Marion by March or April ... Give the shop elves a raise and some Wonder Cookies and they should have at least one ready for next Xmas ....

Tom
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 24, 2017, 11:25:25 PM
I came across this picture online, figured someone out there ought to build a herd of these to help Santa next year....
(https://s5.postimg.org/a9h5p5qif/Reindeer.jpg)

Merry Christmas all!

:bandrock:

You should be done with the Marion by March or April ... Give the shop elves a raise and some Wonder Cookies and they should have at least one ready for next Xmas ....

Tom
March or April?? THIS year? Gack...

Might be easier to get the elves started on the sleigh, skip the reindeer:
(https://s5.postimg.org/961mqwso7/Sleigh.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 27, 2017, 10:13:40 PM
Back in the shop againafter a great holiday break, time to work on the yoke that suspends the bucket from the hoist chain. Started with a block of 3/8" thick 303 stainless sawn from a larger piece of bar stock.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6l6mgwp4n/IMG_1687.jpg)
With the block clamped to the table, and the inner surfaces clear of the support blocks, milled the back face and the inner faces of the arms to shape - was checking the distances as I went, does not appear to be springing any noticeable amount, which is good.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7ngszhi8n/IMG_1689.jpg)
The outer faces of the ends of the arms were taken to thickness - this area is parallel to the inner face, since it is within the brackets on the buckets. The portion above this area tapers out to the wider part above it.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6xy0n3f47/IMG_1690.jpg)
Then the parts were clamped at an angle, and that tapered area milled to shape...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wgqd046dz/IMG_1691.jpg)
Then switched to holding it on a wood block on a faceplate held with the rotary table, and after some fiddling to get the center of the arcs in the right place, milled the inner and outer curves at the upper corners.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4gm9fuid3/IMG_1694.jpg)
The part was then given a pass to thin it down to final thickness, and then the hole that holds the pulley bracket was drilled.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ob8b1ypuv/IMG_1696.jpg)
Here is the part propped on the bucket - next up will be to start the u-shaped clamps that go around the pins at the bottom of the yoke...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tmn7mord3/IMG_1697.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on December 27, 2017, 11:35:42 PM
Chris that is beautiful.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on December 28, 2017, 12:23:31 AM
Very nice work on the Yoke, Chris!

So, are you going to work your way down from the bucket, through the boom, to the base?
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 28, 2017, 12:27:25 AM
Very nice work on the Yoke, Chris!

So, are you going to work your way down from the bucket, through the boom, to the base?
Kim
I keep changing my mind on that. At least the door will be made, then I'll decide whether to go front to back, down to the turntable. The crowd engine will be later, but may do the rest. Or, was thinking about making up the frame rails next.
Hmmm...


Will he or won't he? Tune in next week for the next episode of The Shop Elf Chronicles!!


 :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 28, 2017, 03:25:51 AM
Look good Chris.  :ThumbsUp: You're a master metal carver!  :praise2:

If it keeps snowing up you're way you're going to need to put that shovel to work.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 28, 2017, 03:32:47 AM
Look good Chris.  :ThumbsUp: You're a master metal carver!  :praise2:

If it keeps snowing up you're way you're going to need to put that shovel to work.

Jim
Thanks Jim! 


This week we have only gotten 5 or 6 inches of snow here, its just to the west along Lake Erie where they have gotten 5 FEET in two days! For us its the cold, down in single digits (F) all week,so I would rather be the boiler engineer than the guy up on the turntable this week!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Roger B on December 28, 2017, 09:01:43 AM
Finally caught up on this build, you move so fast  :) Absolutely splendid machine and turtle  :praise2:  :praise2:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 28, 2017, 06:47:03 PM
Thanks Roger!

Back on the yoke clamps this morning, cut some bar stock long enough to get out both clamps, trimmed to width, and drilled the pivot pin holes.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5lz5nfx9j/IMG_1698.jpg)
Next up was to mill the slots for the yoke arms to fit into. The arms are wider than the pivot pins, so the slots had to end just shy of the center of the pivot holes:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/i0lxns47b/IMG_1701.jpg)
Once the arms were a snug fit in the slots, moved over to the bench vise and filed the corners square so the arms would sit down in all the way. I would have done this on the mill, but the cutter was not long enough to reach all the way in from the ends.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wjt2p6pmf/IMG_1703.jpg)
and back over to the mill to drill the holes for the 1-72 cross bolts:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/a7v9vrvnb/IMG_1705.jpg)
Next I needed to mill in the half-holes in the yoke arm ends - to get a firm hold on the arms, I used a smaller milling vise to hold the part, and clamped that vertically in the larger mill vise. Then used a 1/4" end mill to plunge cut the holes, lined up with the hole in the yoke clamp. Worked very nicely.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/z14twfu3b/IMG_1706.jpg)
Here are the parts so far. Last step is to unbolt the yoke clamps, set them up on the rotary table, and mill the half-round in the ends, where it is just rough cut square now...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/z14twfmdj/IMG_1708.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: fumopuc on December 28, 2017, 07:11:05 PM
Hi Chris,
I enjoy your love for the details.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: mal webber on December 28, 2017, 09:05:01 PM
That's coming along very quick, the fine detail looks great.

Mal
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 28, 2017, 09:54:33 PM
Thanks guys!! Having fun with this one, learning some new techniques here and there.

One more operation this afternoon, set up the rotary table again with the same holder that I used earlier on the yoke brackets, and rounded over the ends of the clamp brackets. The rod steadying the parts is centered in the 4-jaw (did that on the lathe with a dial indicator) and the chuck is self-centered on the rotary table with the chuck adapter into the center hole of the table.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bj7mi76ev/IMG_1709.jpg)
Here it is assembled again, with a 1/4" drawbar bolt to hold the yoke in place. Next step is to make the short pivot pins to hold it in place for real.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/h7dx93ih3/IMG_1710.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Gas_mantle on December 28, 2017, 10:02:14 PM
Great work Chris.

The bucket is a complete model in its own right  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on December 28, 2017, 10:53:51 PM
Looking really great, Chris!

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on December 29, 2017, 10:15:44 AM
Oh Yum!!

 :popcornsmall: :popcornsmall:

That is looking just great! Nice to have the ruler for size.

Better go see how the  :popcorn: growing, got a feeling that I'm going to need more.......LOTS more!!     :lolb:

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 29, 2017, 01:46:45 PM
Oh Yum!!

 :popcornsmall: :popcornsmall:

That is looking just great! Nice to have the ruler for size.

Better go see how the  :popcorn: growing, got a feeling that I'm going to need more.......LOTS more!!     :lolb:

Cheers Kerrin
Better plant a couple of years worth!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 29, 2017, 04:35:54 PM
Quick update on the side project, the RC submarine sea turtle - been working on making the molds from the wooden master forms the last couple of days. Here is the one for the top shell:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8n7kepjiv/IMG_1714.jpg)
The orange is the silicone rubber mold itself, and the off-white surrounding it is the plastic mother-mold, which keeps the rubber in proper shape. Both are from Smooth-On, which supplies all sorts of molding products. The rubber is a two-part platinum-cure silicone rubber, can be recoated in an hour, cures in 6 hours, where the plastic is a fiber-filled two-part mix made specially for this use, it does not stick to the rubber so it can be pulled off the molded part, then the rubber section peeled away from any undercut areas. This is the first time I've tried this, so far so good. I have the molds for the bottom of the shell and the head/tail/flippers in process now. The shell and front of the head will be cast with fiberglass, the rest will be cast in another of thier rubber products, which starts as a milky color, but they have pigments you can add to the mix as well as paint on afterwards, so the flippers/tail/neck can all be articulated.

More to come as this progresses, now back to the metal shop for the Marion bucket!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 29, 2017, 07:12:10 PM
And a bit of time on the Marion this morning, spent a couple minutes making the pivot pins (simple 1/4" dia rod trimmed to length), then another half hour filing the sides of the bucket and yoke to give it more clearance - I had forgotten to leave paint thickness room, so the parts would bind up once the yoke was painted. Thats all sorted out, here it is now:

um, well HERE it is - looks like PostImage has fallen into a snowdrift, new images are showing up blank at the moment, so I'll attach it till they get it dug out and dusted off:

Okay, they are back (maybe their server went out for lunch and got lost...)   :atcomputer:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ywx8bcaaf/IMG_1715.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: sco on December 29, 2017, 09:34:16 PM
That bucket looks MEAN Chris!

Still following and enjoying,

Simon.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 29, 2017, 09:41:50 PM
That bucket looks MEAN Chris!

Still following and enjoying,

Simon.
That explains the growling from the shop!  :Lol:


I need to find some more old photos for comparison, the bucket currently on the shovel here is the 2.5 cubic yard option, the shovel came standard with a 5 cubic yard bucket, could be ordered either way or retrofitted later. Since they were digging stone at the quarry here (there is a 150 foot thick gravel/rock layer left over from the glaciers) I assume that the small bucket made more sense.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 31, 2017, 07:17:17 PM
Back in the metal shop today after a couple days on the submarine molds, started in on the bucket door. Started with some 3" wide flat brass stock, which was a little thick but it was the closest stock size. I rough cut it to shape, and trimmed the outside on the grinder to round the corners and curve the front edge.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ugk2rp4fb/IMG_1716.jpg)
With the part held in the 4-jaw on the rotary table, milled away the center of the field to form the narrow lip that goes around the bottom edge. The straight edges were easy to do, the inside curves took some etcha-sketch type handle turning. This cut was deep enough to leave the center the proper thickness, the lip around the edge was then taken down to final thickness.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/e6yi1zdtz/IMG_1717.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/xan855tqv/IMG_1719.jpg)
The surface was given a light sanding to blend in the tool marks from the mill, and the notch for the front latch plate was then milled in,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xnembcjqf/IMG_1721.jpg)
Here it is test fit on the bucket:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ugk2rpc53/IMG_1723.jpg)
Next up is the set of hinges for the door. The hinges have the pivot point offset partway up the bucket - this makes it so that the door will self-close and latch with the bucket tipped just partway back, which it would not do with a standard hinge at the corner. I made a card stock template so that I could check the fit, and decide what stock to make it out of:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/anckc6qjr/IMG_1724.jpg)
Given how wide the stock would need to be to get it out of one piece, and how much waste there would be, I think I will silver solder a length of narrower bar to a short wide piece (maybe a disc from a round bar?) and mill the shape from that instead....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on December 31, 2017, 09:20:06 PM
Nice work on the bucket door, Chris.  That hinge is going to be interesting to see take shape!

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 31, 2017, 09:41:59 PM
Nice work on the bucket door, Chris.  That hinge is going to be interesting to see take shape!

Kim
Hopefully not the Chinese curse type of interesting, as in 'May you live in interesting times'....!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on December 31, 2017, 10:06:02 PM
Guess it will depend on how mischievous you're shop elves are being, eh?  :Lol:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 01, 2018, 02:29:38 AM
I was digging in the stack of bar stock, and decided to go with a single piece of wide .1875 thick steel I have, turns out that the curved section is so large (nearly 2") that it uses less stock and time than piecing it up. The interesting part is going to be holding the stock to mill the shape, going to need s good jig arrangement, since the inner and outer arcs are not concentric with each other.  :insane:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 01, 2018, 06:05:00 PM
This morning got the two blanks for the hinges cut out of the larger bar, and started roughing down the shape. I traced off the cardstock template as a reference, and stayed a little outside the lines when roughing the shape in.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fsw5d4zp3/IMG_1729.jpg)
One down, one to go. Current thinking on the holding jig is to drill the curved tip for the pivot pin, and use that hole to bolt that end do a faceplate, and clamp the other end down to the plate. It will take a couple of holes for the bolt end, to hold the piece at the two different centerpoints for cutting the arcs.

At first I was wondering how to work out the hole positions, but then remembered that the design for the part is sitting right there in the 3D model - let the app show me the center points and offset distances!  :wallbang:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 02, 2018, 09:41:44 PM
Got the hinges milled to outside profile this afternoon...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/573jsxviv/IMG_1736.jpg)
They still need to have the sides recessed in, but before I do that I need to make up a better finger plate for the rotary table, one that I can center up quickly and have a few options on the hold-down arm. I remember Brian and George, among others showing some good ones, time to make up one for myself...

Oh, and I took the full-size-dimensioned plan set for the shovel over to the historical society today, along with the bucket, that went over very well. Also delivered a disc full of renders of the 3D model, some labeled for the controls, engines, etc, for possible use in the signage they are getting made up. Sounds like the fundraising efforts to get started on the renovations will be starting soon, which is fantastic news. The tar/whatever layer that the quarry had sprayed on the exposed metal parts is finally starting to flake off, and will be trapping water, so this is great timing to get some new stabilization work done (once it warms up a little more this spring, anyway). The coating saved it for the last 50 years, but it's now or never to get it protected for the next 50.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: b.lindsey on January 02, 2018, 10:45:35 PM
Just checking in to see how things are going Chris. Impressive as always!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 02, 2018, 10:59:26 PM
Just checking in to see how things are going Chris. Impressive as always!!

Bill
Great to have you along for another trip into swarfland!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on January 02, 2018, 11:58:45 PM
Chris,
Your scrolly-hinge thing looks good.   Do you have any pictures showing how you shaped it like that? It looks very tidy!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on January 03, 2018, 12:29:05 AM
Have you considered printing profiles at actual size, cutting them out, and gluing to the stock as a guide to cutting?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on January 03, 2018, 01:07:55 AM
Still following you Dog and enjoying it. Some nice fab work I love it gives me ideas....... :ThumbsUp:


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 03, 2018, 02:23:03 AM
Chris,
Your scrolly-hinge thing looks good.   Do you have any pictures showing how you shaped it like that? It looks very tidy!
Kim
I clamped it to the same sail track jig that I used on the yoke parts, on the rotary table it took several positions for the different arcs since they were not concentric. The pics came out bad, the dial on the camera got bumped.  :Mad:
I have sketched out a better fixture for finger clamping to the rotary table, will build that before making the recess cuts n the sides of the hinges. Should have better pics of that!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 03, 2018, 02:25:44 AM
Have you considered printing profiles at actual size, cutting them out, and gluing to the stock as a guide to cutting?
I've done that on other parts. This time I drew it by hand with a compass and ruler on heavier card stock since I wanted to hold it in place with the door and bucket to check the fit. Templates are your friends! I buy card stock by the pile.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 03, 2018, 02:26:45 AM
Still following you Dog and enjoying it. Some nice fab work I love it gives me ideas....... :ThumbsUp:


 :cheers:
Don
Thanks Don - so what great ideas are heading for the shop next?!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 03, 2018, 09:00:15 PM
I got a start on the tooling plate/hold down plate for the rotary table, something I've been wanting to make for quite a while but never took the day or so to do it. Started with a chunk of steel bar, 3.5 x 5 x 3/8" (largest I had that would not interfere with the column while spinning on the table), and laid out a grid of holes 1/2" apart across it. These holes will be threaded for the step-block hold-down clamps from the Sherline. There is also a couple rows of extra holes in between, once centered and one offset to one end. These will take a round button on the bottom to fit in the center hole of the rotary table, plus larger clearance holes to take some t-slot nuts to clamp it down to the table. There are a couple spots where these can go in, to allow offsetting the plate to one side and/or one end for doing different arcs. I'll show examples of that once it is all made.
Anyway, here was the start, drilling the first side of the grid of holes on the mini-mill, which makes for a very nice drill press setup - would have taken lots longer to do this on the Sherline mill with all the cranking needed for the Z-axis.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/vewriwasn/IMG_1738.jpg)
Then turned the plate around to do the other side - lined up with the first set of holes so the pattern is square.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wtyc7mjlj/IMG_1739.jpg)
The extra rows of holes for the t-slot nuts and center boss show in the center a few rows to the right. I'd finish it up now, but the winter archery and pistol leagues have started up, so off to prep for that. Should finish the drilling tomorrow, then will take a bit to tap holes. And more holes. Then some more...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on January 03, 2018, 10:50:02 PM
Have you considered CNCing your mills?
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 03, 2018, 10:59:32 PM
Have you considered CNCing your mills?
Gerald.
Not for long. After spending 30+ years making a living on computers, I much prefer the hands on manual controls! So, my version of cnc is Count Number Cranks!
I am using the cnc adapters on the leadscrews, just because they have a better backlash setup than the incredibly stupid way Sherline depends on a tiny grubscrew into an aluminum shaft to use the handwheel itself for a thrust bearing.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on January 04, 2018, 04:37:25 AM
That's going to be a nice fixture plate, Chris. Will be good to see it in action.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 05, 2018, 04:12:51 PM
Finishing up the fixture plate, almost ready to get back to the hinges on the bucket door. I still need to tap the rest of the holes in the plate, but will wait on that till I get the hinges done. So far I tapped enough to hold the hinges down, and wanted to see how it went together. Here is the bottom, with the centering button screwed into the center hole, and the t-nut bolts slipped through the outer holes.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/st0342wk7/IMG_1740.jpg)
The button can be placed in the center, like shown, or in several spots off to the side in that row, as can the t-nuts. There is another row for them off to the right, for use in rounding off long parts like con-rods.
Here is a view from the top, with one of the hinges held in place. I am using the hold-down set from the Sherline, but just threading the rods into the plate holes rather than into the usual t-nut slots.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ezbqf1bon/IMG_1741.jpg)
In the picture I show one of the smaller hold-downs and one of the larger ones with the step blocks, either will work with this setup. The bolt for the centering button only goes half way into the plate, so the center hole can be used both for centering the rotary table in the mill, as well as holding down parts. When profiling parts I'll put down some sacrificial material to lift it off the plate, like card stock or thin metal strips. This is a tool that I've wanted to make for years, finally got around to it! Another of those 8 year and a day projects... Could have bought one, but could not see paying the prices they want for a simple block full of holes!
Anyhow, off to lunch, then back at the hinge plates!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on January 05, 2018, 06:10:29 PM
That's pretty neat, Chris.
So how did you center the "J" on the RT?  just eyeball it? Or did you do something to help get it more accurately located?
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 05, 2018, 06:47:30 PM
That's pretty neat, Chris.
So how did you center the "J" on the RT?  just eyeball it? Or did you do something to help get it more accurately located?
Kim

For recessing the inside of the part with the recess parallel to the edge, I start out with an eyeball guess, and just finger-tighten the hold down clamps so it doesn't shift too easily, then run the mill cutter down to the existing outside edge, with the tip of the cutter just above the part. Crank the table in/out till the edge of the cutter is next to the edge of the part, then cranked the rotary table around, and watched where it wandered off - repositioned the part, did that a couple more times till the tip of the cutter followed the part nicely. Clamped down the part tight, one more check, then I moved the table over and started the real cut. The inside and outside curves on the J are not concentric, so I had to reposition the part for the other edge. After cutting each edge, I made some felt-tip marks tracing the curves on the holding table, to make the eyeball guess a lot closer when doing the opposite face and the second part. A little alcohol on a tissue takes the felt tip off again when done.

If I was doing something like a eccentric follower or a con-rod, I'd make a little disc with a bolt hole in the center, where the outside edge of the disc has a stepped lip that is a close fit to the hole in the part, then bolt that disc into the center hole of the table (same hole where the centering button is on the bottom of the table) - that would auto-center the part onto the table and the rotary table.

Great lead in to these photos - just finished recessing the first hinge plate. I started out with the inner curve of the J centered as described above, and milled a slot 0.050" deep around that arc.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/q7uigfwuv/IMG_1742.jpg)
Then re--positioned to center the outside curve, and did that section too...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wyazpw75z/IMG_1743.jpg)
I re-positioned the clamps to get the arm of the J clear, turned the rotary table till the cutter ran down parallel to the outside length of the arm and cut there, then turned the rotary table to parallel the inside of the arm, and finished up the cut:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8hstveqzr/IMG_1747.jpg)
Repeated the whole process on the opposite face of the part, so the cross section of the part looks like an I beam, and have one part done, one part to go...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5npohywjb/IMG_1749.jpg)
The ends of the recess should continue out to a point where the sides of the arm come together, but the end mills I have don't go that small, so I'll finish that off with the little air-powered rotary too with a dental bit - will show that after it is done. The inside corners up at the pivot hole will get trimmed up too.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on January 05, 2018, 07:00:17 PM
Thanks for the write-up, Chris.  Seems like a reasonable method.  Could you have done the outside curve at the same time as the inner part? so that you had a way to register the 'J' using a hole - maybe recess the sides and do the outer curve before cutting away the inner curve so that you still had material in there to support the rest of the part?  Just thinking how I might do it....

But your results are incredible, as always!   :popcorn:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 05, 2018, 07:07:41 PM
Thanks for the write-up, Chris.  Seems like a reasonable method.  Could you have done the outside curve at the same time as the inner part? so that you had a way to register the 'J' using a hole - maybe recess the sides and do the outer curve before cutting away the inner curve so that you still had material in there to support the rest of the part?  Just thinking how I might do it....

But your results are incredible, as always!   :popcorn:
Kim
I don't think so - the inner and outer curves have different center points, which make the shape such that the end at the pivot hole is narrower than the end where it meets the arm of the J.

Oh. Wait. Now I get where you are going. Have two holes in the inner area, each at the center of the two arcs, and use that with a centering pin on the table.
Yup! That would work! Could do the cut on the inner face of the part to separate that section last. The way I cut the blanks out of the larger bar meant I could not do that, since I had nested the shapes in and the center point wound up in mid-air. But, if you left the metal blank wider there, that would work fine.

Yet another proof that there is many more ways than one to skin a wildebeast!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on January 05, 2018, 07:19:15 PM
Part looks super nice and Kim gets an extra cookie 🍪

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on January 05, 2018, 07:34:14 PM
YES!  A cookie!  :cartwheel:

But I think Chris gets first dibs, since he actually did the work.  I only did a thought experiment.  And we all know reality has a way of screwing up the best thought experiment :)

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 05, 2018, 07:37:26 PM
YES!  A cookie!  :cartwheel:
Kim - Stop by, you can have TWO cookies. One extra for coming all the way cross-country just for a cookie!   :ROFL:

But I think Chris gets first dibs, since he actually did the work.  I only did a thought experiment.  And we all know reality has a way of screwing up the best thought experiment :)

Kim
We would never let reality get in the way of a plan!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: mklotz on January 05, 2018, 08:46:33 PM
We would never let reality get in the way of a plan!

I like that.  Sounds like something Adam Savage might say.  I'll add it to my file of memorable sig lines.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 05, 2018, 09:09:25 PM
We would never let reality get in the way of a plan!

I like that.  Sounds like something Adam Savage might say.  I'll add it to my file of memorable sig lines.
I always liked his line,  I reject your reality and substitute my own!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 05, 2018, 11:11:04 PM
This afternoon I got the other hinge plate recessed in, now both are ready to have the detail shaping done at the ends with an air rotary tool and dental bits. Hate the sound (flashbacks to the dental chair) but it works really well!
Here they are test fit on the bucket.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9t56huh6v/IMG_1752.jpg)
There is still a trim piece needed where the hinge goes onto the door, a wider flange at the transition point along the arm of the J, going across where the door rim sticks up where the slight gap is in this photo.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/prdw7zj4n/IMG_1753.jpg)
One of the hinges tipped up to show the range of movement. Its interesting how having the hinge pin offset means the door self-closes at an earlier angle, and also reduces the clearance to the ground needed.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/x7d5tsejr/IMG_1754.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dan Rowe on January 05, 2018, 11:21:33 PM
Wow, Chris, that bucket looks amazing. Nice tooling plate I have one on my roundtuit list.

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 05, 2018, 11:24:17 PM
Wow, Chris, that bucket looks amazing. Nice tooling plate I have one on my roundtuit list.

Cheers Dan
Hi Dan, I'd move it up to the top of the list if you are milling odd profile parts - works fantastic, no slippage or wobbling at all. Wish I had made it a long time ago. Now I just need to tap the rest of the holes in mine...

Hmmm, those shop elves just vanished into the woodwork!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 06, 2018, 08:17:22 PM
This morning I took the ends of the slots in the hinges down using a high speed air rotary tool and some dental burs, in the areas at the ends where an end mill would not fit:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/nqemf24l3/IMG_1755.jpg)
Then some more time with the rotary table setup to mill slots for the hinges in some thin bars cut from some sheet brass. These will form the wider platform that the hinges mount to on the bottom door.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/f856aql7r/IMG_1756.jpg)
Test fit of the hinge - one snapped on with a friction fit, the other had just a slip on fit:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xnpn85err/IMG_1757.jpg)
Next step was to mill the matching notches in the rim of the door for the plates to fit through. To hold this larger piece, I moved the center button and t-slot nuts over to the end position, since the door is too wide to fit between the bolt heads. I may countersink those holes to eliminate this issue for future parts.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ju1aj2z13/IMG_1758.jpg)
And here it is with the second side notched in.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6pvq6emev/IMG_1759.jpg)
Next I'll get the plates riveted in place, then will trim the ends of the plates to be flush with the profile of the door.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 06, 2018, 10:46:02 PM
One more bit of work for today, drilled and riveted on the hinge base plates:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ita8l8u6f/IMG_1763.jpg)
and a quick nibble on the belt sander to fair in the ends of the plates:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9li04jfef/IMG_1764.jpg)
Next up is to attach the hinges, which will take some careful measurement and marking to get them lined up in the slots just right. Then, on to all the latch mechanism on the bottom of the door. Here is a shot of the original to show where all that will be going:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/lalzsilsn/DSC_6778.jpg)
The chain in the upper right corner attaches to the pull-rope that goes back to the turntable. Pulling on that moves the levers, sliding back the large square bar at the bottom center of the photo, which pulls it out of the opening in the latch plate at the front of the bucket. All those levers give it some mechanical advantage - I would think there would be a lot of force needed to move the latch bar when the bucket had 15000 or 16000 pounds of dirt/rock in it!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dan Rowe on January 06, 2018, 10:57:56 PM
What resets the latch pin...gravity?

Nice work.

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 06, 2018, 11:22:29 PM
What resets the latch pin...gravity?

Nice work.

Cheers Dan

That's right, the latch bar is a couple inches square and over a foot long, so quite heavy. The top corner is angled in, like the leading edge of a normal door striker, so it can be pushed up by the strike plate if needed. I've noticed that nowhere on the entire machine is a single spring, everything is gravity actuated. Even the return on the hoist drum brake band is a large counterweight on an arm. They have designed for reliability for many years.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: RJH on January 07, 2018, 01:02:03 AM
7.5 or 8 ton is a lot of rock. How many yard bucket is that?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 07, 2018, 01:42:10 AM
7.5 or 8 ton is a lot of rock. How many yard bucket is that?
The standard model 91 came with a 5 yard bucket, this one has the optional 2.5 yard bucket, presumably since it was digging limestone rock. The Marion company also could supply extra long booms, wide set wheels, etc for special needs of customers.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 07, 2018, 07:01:33 PM
More done on the hinges today. Drilled/tapped the hinges and door for some 1-72 bolts, the heads of which were then taken off more flush to look like rivets on the inside.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fbuuwkd3b/IMG_1766.jpg)
Here is a couple shots of the hinges in place:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gqwfl9yqv/IMG_1768.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/lcsjtlx4n/IMG_1770.jpg)
Just took a slight bit of filing on the back bottom edge of the bucket to get it to swing free and close flat to the bottom.
Here is the bucket hanging straight, showing the angle that the door naturally hangs at. As you can see, the door swings back and up a bit, reducing the clearance needed underneath, but stopping at about a 45 degree angle (falling dirt/rock from the bucket can push it out vertically).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3zi9erh93/IMG_1771.jpg)
With that angle, they only had to swing the dipper boom back in at 45 degrees to get the door to swing closed, probably slightly more to get the latch to catch. A clever design.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/642mfuybb/IMG_1772.jpg)
Next up will be a start on the latch mechanism...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on January 07, 2018, 10:38:20 PM
Hi Chris,
 Them old fellas were a bit cunning!

Very very nice!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on January 07, 2018, 11:45:54 PM
Awesome Chris good attention to details. Still love it Dog..... :ThumbsUp:


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on January 08, 2018, 12:34:28 AM
Hi Chris.....I think I understand the latching of the bucket door, and must assume that there are some levers or fulcrums functions employed to gain mechanical advantage....... however a few things escape me :facepalm:

1. is the yellow X a pivot?
2. is the red dotted line another parallel lifting bar?
3. is the green some form of limiting or pivoting adjustment point mechanism?

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 08, 2018, 02:40:06 AM
Hi Chris.....I think I understand the latching of the bucket door, and must assume that there are some levers or fulcrums functions employed to gain mechanical advantage....... however a few things escape me :facepalm:

1. is the yellow X a pivot?
2. is the red dotted line another parallel lifting bar?
3. is the green some form of limiting or pivoting adjustment point mechanism?

Derek
Hi Derek,

Yes, there are several layers of levers there that give it more mechanical advantage. I'll include a labelled picture from the 3D model, which should make it a lot clearer than the original with all the corrosion.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/48p0w7qtj/Bucket_Door_Latch.jpg)
The latch bar A is pulled on by the cross bar, which has a fixed pivot next to the 'B' label. That bar is pulled on by bar C, which is in turn pulled on by bar D, which is restrained by the crossbar F which is fixed in position. Bar D is pulled by the chain, which attaches to the middle of bar E. The lower end of bar E has a ring to take a rope that goes back to the operator. Each of these bars is set up to increase the levarage on the latch. The bar D is anchored at the bracket G - the rod coming out of G is threaded, with a nut on each end - that will give adjustment to the linkages so that wear on the latch bar can be accomodated. G looks like a hinge, but it is just a threaded holder for the rod. I have not calculated it all, but it looks like the rope would have to be pulled by the operator several times farther than the latch moves, upping the force on the latch to overcome the weight of all that dirt/rock in the bucket. It must have worked well, this machine was in operation for decades without this being changed.

Hope that helps!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on January 08, 2018, 05:02:12 AM
That looks like about 12:1 total. How far into the latch hole does the bolt go??

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on January 08, 2018, 05:45:37 AM
I came up with 8:1.  Lever D looks like about 4:1, and cross bar connected to the latch (A) looks like 2:1.  That gave me 8:1.  Is there something else I'm missing? Or maybe I miscalculated?

Still, that's a pretty good advantage!

And how was the chain pulled?  Was it on the end of a lever also, to give some additional help?
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on January 08, 2018, 07:17:36 AM
8 to one is shorter stroke for the guy pulling the rope but 12 to one means he doesn't have to pull as hard. If you assume the latch bolt moves an inch then the 8 to 12 inch distance to pull the rope is very reasonable.

There's some pretty cool engineering exhibited there.

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on January 08, 2018, 09:20:18 AM
Hi Chris. I am an avid follower of your work, although a novice in model engineering. However I do have a lifetime's experience in using various farm machinery.

Looking at your amazing 3D drawing of the bucket latch I wonder if there is a link missing at point B. On the photo of the full size bucket I had the impression of a short link which would allow the bolt to be drawn without any sideways movement which would be induced by the arc of the first lever if it pivots from a fixed point. I may well be wrong as it is not easy to see the detail clearly on the photo, in which case I hope you will forgive my intervention. I feel a bit like I'm telling God he made a mistake  :NotWorthy:

Mike.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Admiral_dk on January 08, 2018, 11:25:25 AM
I would dare to say that you have lever F fixed in each end and therefore not doing anything .... one end should be point B that isn't fixed - if I interpretere the picture right ....

Best wishes

Per
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: scc on January 08, 2018, 11:54:40 AM
The Lombard was epic enough, but I am enjoying this build even more!  Chris, how do you find the time to make such rapid progress?

Excellent thread     Thank You.           Terry
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on January 08, 2018, 12:16:42 PM
Per,

Going back to the original photo (full size bucket) my impression was that Link F was actually a fixed guide bar for Lever D but there appears to be a short link, mostly concealed by Link F, which acts as a floating fulcrum for the lever connected to Latch Bolt A to prevent it binding due to sideways pressure.

Mike.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 08, 2018, 03:30:08 PM
That looks like about 12:1 total. How far into the latch hole does the bolt go??

Pete
It only goes in an inch or inch and a half.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on January 08, 2018, 03:32:16 PM
Did the release rope go directly to the cab? It occurred to me that, if it went up to a pulley on the boom, the bucket could be tilted such that the bottom moved somewhat vertical which would reduce the load that the "puller dude" had to work against.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 08, 2018, 03:32:34 PM
I came up with 8:1.  Lever D looks like about 4:1, and cross bar connected to the latch (A) looks like 2:1.  That gave me 8:1.  Is there something else I'm missing? Or maybe I miscalculated?

Still, that's a pretty good advantage!

And how was the chain pulled?  Was it on the end of a lever also, to give some additional help?
Kim
The chain goes back to lever E, at the bottom of E, which just hangs from the boom, would be a rope going back to the operator.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 08, 2018, 03:38:10 PM
Hi Chris. I am an avid follower of your work, although a novice in model engineering. However I do have a lifetime's experience in using various farm machinery.

Looking at your amazing 3D drawing of the bucket latch I wonder if there is a link missing at point B. On the photo of the full size bucket I had the impression of a short link which would allow the bolt to be drawn without any sideways movement which would be induced by the arc of the first lever if it pivots from a fixed point. I may well be wrong as it is not easy to see the detail clearly on the photo, in which case I hope you will forgive my intervention. I feel a bit like I'm telling God he made a mistake  :NotWorthy:

Mike.
There was no short link at B, they just had that pin be a loose fit in the hole. Can't tell from that picture, but I checked that when I was there, that last hole was an oval to allow the slight side movement. You are right that it would bind if it was a close fit. What looks like a short bar in the photo is where the main bar narrows to the first link b.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 08, 2018, 03:40:05 PM
I would dare to say that you have lever F fixed in each end and therefore not doing anything .... one end should be point B that isn't fixed - if I interpretere the picture right ....

Best wishes

Per
Bar F is just a guide to keep bar  D from sagging down out of line, it is not part of the linkage itself.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 08, 2018, 03:40:57 PM
The Lombard was epic enough, but I am enjoying this build even more!  Chris, how do you find the time to make such rapid progress?

Excellent thread     Thank You.           Terry
One word. Retirement!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 08, 2018, 03:54:46 PM
Per,

Going back to the original photo (full size bucket) my impression was that Link F was actually a fixed guide bar for Lever D but there appears to be a short link, mostly concealed by Link F, which acts as a floating fulcrum for the lever connected to Latch Bolt A to prevent it binding due to sideways pressure.

Mike.
Hmmm... just went back to the photo sets, and I think you are right! I had not noticed that short link before, with all the lumps of the tar that they sprayed it with. I'll go update the 3D model on that! Thanks, that is a sharp eye to pick that up! I had thought it was just the mount post under bar F, but there is another layer there.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 08, 2018, 04:23:26 PM
Here is the 3D model updated with the new link - thanks for picking that up guys, took me a while to find what you guys were looking at!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: b.lindsey on January 08, 2018, 04:31:00 PM
I think you have it now Chris. That small link does make some sense. Even back in the day those designers were pretty sharp. It actually amazes me how much of that we have lost over the years.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 08, 2018, 04:36:42 PM
I think you have it now Chris. That small link does make some sense. Even back in the day those designers were pretty sharp. It actually amazes me how much of that we have lost over the years.

Bill
Would have been wonderful to talk with some of those designers!

I recall on the photos of the original beam engine that Willy did the model of, that they did make the occasional goof and had to cut away a bit of casting for clearance, but I'm sure the next one they made had that correction in the molds.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 08, 2018, 04:47:17 PM
As for the mechanical advantage - the measurement on the links works out to 2:1 on the first link, 3:1 on the next, and another 3:1 on the chain-to-rope link, so 18:1 overall?

Oh, and there was the question from Jim of the rope lead from that final link. It did go through a small pulley on the main boom to keep it from sagging down to the ground and keeping the angles good. That was just a guide pulley though, no change in leverage from it, but as you say it would keep the angles better.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on January 08, 2018, 05:18:56 PM
Well, not only are my estimating skills off, but my eyesight isn't so good either apparently.  I completely missed the lever E in my calcs.  Those levers still look like 4:1 to me, not 3:1.  But you've got the actual measurements Chris, so I'll go with your numbers! :)

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 08, 2018, 09:56:02 PM
On to working on the latch mechanism - going to start with the two guide for the latch bar. I started with some rough sawn chunks of 3/8" stainless, held them over the edge of the tooling plate to shape the top/sides.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/lpozwu8uf/IMG_1774.jpg)
Then, figuring that I am better off going with as-built offsets rather than designed measurements for this, I traced the opening from the bucket latchplate:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/lpozwugk7/IMG_1778.jpg)
I'll drill the corners and the bulk of the center of the hole, then finish them up with a file, then start on milling the recesses in to the side fins.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on January 08, 2018, 10:37:45 PM
Chris,

I am so much in awe of your attention to detail and amazing work rate on the Lombard that I hardly dared comment here but having seen similar types of linkage, on somewhat smaller machines I just felt something was not quite right.

At the risk of trying your patience even further I suggest the link would serve no purpose if it were directly in line with the main lever, being effectively an extension of it. My impression from the photo was more like the attached very simplified drawing. This would avoid sideways deflection of the latch. Of course I'm working in the dark since much is hidden behind the guide bar, so I may be way off the mark, but I thought the mount post appeared to be centred a bit further up in the photo  :shrug:

Mike.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 08, 2018, 10:47:06 PM
Hi Mike!  Never be wary of pointing something out to me, its very much appreciated! You make a good point, that it needs to be offset to work right. I'll take another look at the photos and see if I can work out the angle they had it at (too cold and snowy to get out in person if I can get it from the photos).


Thanks for pointing out this one, saved me rework when it would have jammed up!!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on January 08, 2018, 11:02:43 PM
Too busy on other jobs to spend any time in my own workshop at the moment so checking in to see your progress every morning is my little daily treat  :cheers:

Just make sure you don't send that snow over here to the UK, our transport system can't seem to cope with an inch of the stuff  :rant:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 08, 2018, 11:10:57 PM
Too busy on other jobs to spend any time in my own workshop at the moment so checking in to see your progress every morning is my little daily treat  :cheers:

Just make sure you don't send that snow over here to the UK, our transport system can't seem to cope with an inch of the stuff  :rant:
Uh oh. They already picked up the box of snow... A really BIG box!   :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 09, 2018, 12:32:58 AM
Last bit of shop time for the day - more on the guides. Started by drilling the corners of the holes, and then milled out the bulk of the center, ready for some filing time to square up the holes for the latch bar.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/d11up7y9z/IMG_1779.jpg)
Then turned the guides upright, and took .150 off each side to form the ribs:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/l6jwnczdj/IMG_1780.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/icgr9x4x3/IMG_1781.jpg)
And a test fit, sighting down the holes they line up well with the striker plate, so on to some filing time.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/d11up73ev/IMG_1782.jpg)

Earlier today I got the head cast in epoxy for the RC sea turtle submarine that I mentioned a few times in earlier posts. The head is cast as a solid piece, the neck behind it will be cast as a hollow tube of platinum-cure silicone rubber, and will surround the flexible mechanism to articulate the head (more on that in another week or so). The top and bottom halves of the shell have also been cast, using fiberglass matte and resin. Next steps on it will be to make the wire-controlled flex mechanisms for the flippers, neck, and tail. The break for Cabin Fever will give the resins a chance to cure up fully - the silicones wont cure properly if the resin is too new. The castings so far have come out pretty well, just a couple of small air bubble flaws to fill in.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7cvjybm7r/IMG_1783.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 09, 2018, 03:10:12 AM
Mike, think I have finally cracked it! I had been assuming that the pin at the end of the retaining bar "F"  from my earlier picture was also the pivot for the short link you describe. In going through more of the photos in detail, I found an angle that shows that there is another pivot pin for the short link, up at a 45 degree angle from the other, but mounted on the same base as the original pin. Here is a blowup of that spot with labels:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/t5suwnwav/DSC_6337.jpg)
This new pin makes much more sense for the linkage as you describe it, now I get how it would allow for the latch bar to stay centered in its holes. All that white/gray stuff over everything is the remains of the tar that the quarry sprayed on everything when they abandoned it decades ago, now cracking, falling off, and trapping water. That is the stuff that will be stripped and repainted starting this spring, hopefully, as the stabilization project gets started.

Thanks again for spotting the need for that link!  I'll get the 3D model updated to match this.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on January 09, 2018, 05:32:42 AM
Yep, two links between the bar and the bolt! Free floating...

Geez you took some great pics!

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on January 09, 2018, 07:32:28 AM
Yes Chris......sidewise deflection or seizing of the vertical latch bolt 'A' had me concerned :facepalm:....as it would have by the designers all those years ago

This latest revision  would appear to eliminate this

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on January 09, 2018, 07:54:07 AM
By Jove, Looks like Mike cracked it!!

Had both the PC & my phone open last night, so I could zoom in on phone to the earlier pics, pretty hard to see but your latest pic shows it well...well better! The tar spray makes it hard to pick the detail. One more thought....would that little short bar be free to pivot just enuff to allow Bar B to maintain its position as it as the latch would keep it from moving anywhere? Looks also like the Bar F "support is "L" shaped, the low side the pivot point for the short bar & the long leg the anchor point for bar F.

Keep up the good work...the turtle head is looking good!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on January 09, 2018, 08:39:25 AM
Phew! Glad it wasn't all a figment of my imagination  :)

The bucket alone would be a 'project' for many of us. Really looking forward to watching this machine develop  :popcorn:

Mike.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Admiral_dk on January 09, 2018, 11:30:14 AM
I believe that the "F Bolt" is a pivot too, and that explain why they needed the "F Bar" to support it.
One link will not give a parallel movement, but two can - or in this case a short link conneted to a "link" that has an offset and it can turn on a pivot.

Sorry but no way of making a drawing to post here at work ....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 09, 2018, 01:47:08 PM
Yep, two links between the bar and the bolt! Free floating...

Geez you took some great pics!

Pete
Only a couple of thousand! Takes a lot to cover a 75' 110 ton machine!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 09, 2018, 01:49:18 PM
By Jove, Looks like Mike cracked it!!

Had both the PC & my phone open last night, so I could zoom in on phone to the earlier pics, pretty hard to see but your latest pic shows it well...well better! The tar spray makes it hard to pick the detail. One more thought....would that little short bar be free to pivot just enuff to allow Bar B to maintain its position as it as the latch would keep it from moving anywhere? Looks also like the Bar F "support is "L" shaped, the low side the pivot point for the short bar & the long leg the anchor point for bar F.

Keep up the good work...the turtle head is looking good!

Cheers Kerrin
That's my take too, the short link is on a lower post from the same bracket, you can see the flat base plate they are on, riveted to the door.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 09, 2018, 01:55:57 PM
I believe that the "F Bolt" is a pivot too, and that explain why they needed the "F Bar" to support it.
One link will not give a parallel movement, but two can - or in this case a short link conneted to a "link" that has an offset and it can turn on a pivot.

Sorry but no way of making a drawing to post here at work ....
The bar F is there to keep the other long bar, with the chain, from sagging down. This is not a watts type parallel motion setup, the latch bar is in two separate guides to keep it straight, this short link is just to prevent binding of the cross link. At least that is my current understanding. If you can sketch up something later that would be great. Mocking it up with a bar, it seems to work well with just the one pivot on the short link. I'll update the 3d model and post that later this afternoon.


Thanks to all!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 09, 2018, 07:21:37 PM
And here is the updated drawing with the short link pivot moved to where the green arrow is pointing, underneath the retaining bar. I've run some mockups, and it all seems to be able to move cleanly now. It takes very little movement on the short link to let the main latch bar slide cleanly inside its two guides.

Thanks you guys!!

 :cheers:

(https://s5.postimg.cc/fo9e0d4jr/Latch_2.jpg\)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on January 09, 2018, 08:18:13 PM
This little investigative set of posts is a testament to the quality of our membership:  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: guys.

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Admiral_dk on January 09, 2018, 09:14:42 PM
Ah I think I got it now - the problem was that I "Ass-U-Me-d" that the bar across the latch and the latch solid fixed together  :facepalm: sorry  :-[
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 09, 2018, 09:56:33 PM
Ah I think I got it now - the problem was that I "Ass-U-Me-d" that the bar across the latch and the latch solid fixed together  :facepalm: sorry  :-[
Ah, no, its another pivot there.


Sounds like a consensus!  Thanks guys!!

Between bouts of packing for the show, one of the square holes in the latch guides is filed to shape. One more, and I can get them drilled and riveted on.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 10, 2018, 03:54:18 PM
Got the holes squared up in the other guide bar, and drilled/riveted them in place. Drilled one side of first rail, put in the rivets to hold it, then drilled the other side.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/z31sa8wif/IMG_1784.jpg)
Same on the second rail:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/d3vdn1ndz/IMG_1785.jpg)
And the measuring/marking worked, it fits!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fl74uaruv/IMG_1787.jpg)
The latch bar is not to length yet, just a piece from the stock bin for test fit.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on January 10, 2018, 04:49:23 PM
Great start on the latch, Chris!
Now for all the lever action!  :popcorn:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: b.lindsey on January 10, 2018, 04:53:45 PM
Chris, can you do an animation in your software to show the link movement(s). Still trying to wrap my head around it all :)

Bill
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 10, 2018, 06:59:06 PM
Chris, can you do an animation in your software to show the link movement(s). Still trying to wrap my head around it all :)

Bill
Should be able to, probably after CF, today is packing up day, and got archery league tonight. With the sudden warm weather, taking down Christmas lights now!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steam Haulage on January 10, 2018, 07:33:59 PM
Hi Chris,

As you know I am trying to draw the 19-RB. I have revisited your Marion thread and see that in posts 208 and 214 you have drawn the tracks in, I presume in Fusion 360. How easy was it?

Inventor seems to have a mind of its own when attempting to draw anything similar it has all sorts of design assistant options for roller chains, v-belts, gears etc. etc  . . . All the Utube videos on Caterpillar tracks in Inventor are based around modern track plates. Consequently the programme appears to force me into using the roller-chain method. I have Fusion 360 as well  and am wondering if the drawing is simpler. I can draw the sprockets and as you have seen the track plates but it's the assembly of the 3 parts that I cannot yet solve.

Perhaps Fusion allows the use of a path to generate the track assembly.

Do you have any thoughts?

Best regards
Jerry :happyreader:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gbritnell on January 10, 2018, 08:03:08 PM
Chris,
 I dare say this will most likely be more spectacular than the Lombard, if that's at all possible.
I really enjoy following along with your construction processes because I learn something new every time.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 10, 2018, 08:50:23 PM
Hi Chris,

As you know I am trying to draw the 19-RB. I have revisited your Marion thread and see that in posts 208 and 214 you have drawn the tracks in, I presume in Fusion 360. How easy was it?

Inventor seems to have a mind of its own when attempting to draw anything similar it has all sorts of design assistant options for roller chains, v-belts, gears etc. etc  . . . All the Utube videos on Caterpillar tracks in Inventor are based around modern track plates. Consequently the programme appears to force me into using the roller-chain method. I have Fusion 360 as well  and am wondering if the drawing is simpler. I can draw the sprockets and as you have seen the track plates but it's the assembly of the 3 parts that I cannot yet solve.

Perhaps Fusion allows the use of a path to generate the track assembly.

Do you have any thoughts?

Best regards
Jerry :happyreader:
Well, I drew a single plate in fusion, then manually copy/pasted/moved it to form the collection of plates. They do have a path pattern tool you can use for it, but getting the length and position of that path accurate enough to make the last meet the first is beyond me,and doing it manually was pretty quick. I used the path pattern to do the chains on the turntable and boom though. Fusion can animate things in a line or circle, they don't yet do things like a chain around two sprockets. Mine just needed to be designed, I don't need it to animate.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 10, 2018, 08:55:32 PM
Chris,
 I dare say this will most likely be more spectacular than the Lombard, if that's at all possible.
I really enjoy following along with your construction processes because I learn something new every time.
gbritnell
Thanks very much George, I'm a big fan of your work! This is looking to be a huge bit of fun for me, combining all the mechanisms and types of work in one thing that (hopefully) operates. Maybe its my background as a carver/sculptor that makes me take a different approach to some of the problems. Or that I have no formal training in machining, so I pick different methods. Anyway, its fun!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on January 11, 2018, 03:51:37 AM
Chris,
 I dare say this will most likely be more spectacular than the Lombard, if that's at all possible.
I really enjoy following along with your construction processes because I learn something new every time.
gbritnell
Thanks very much George, I'm a big fan of your work! This is looking to be a huge bit of fun for me, combining all the mechanisms and types of work in one thing that (hopefully) operates. Maybe its my background as a carver/sculptor that makes me take a different approach to some of the problems. Or that I have no formal training in machining, so I pick different methods. Anyway, its fun!

It's funny Chris...............as I've been reading your posts................I've been thinking the same thing. You're taking machines and tools that normally create parts that are made to some exact measurement and are creating parts that I'd more associate with art. Well done!  :ThumbsUp:

Jim

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 15, 2018, 07:32:28 PM
Back from Cabin Fever, will be starting up the Marion build again this week - see photos over on the CF thread in the Shows forum....

One other bit of news I can finally announce after another meeting with the editors at the show. The build of my Lombard Log Hauler will be starting as the cover story in Live Steam/Outdoor Railroading magazine starting in the March issue! It will include full plan sets for the model, along with much of what you read in the build thread on the forums here. Very exciting (for me, anyway!). The build will be spread over a bunch of issues, they dont know how many yet, but probably 8 or 10.

Back to unpacking the rest of the models/tools/purchases from the show, then probably more work on the Marion bucket tomorrow...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on January 15, 2018, 10:11:03 PM
Congratulations on the Live Steam deal!  That is super cool :)
Maybe I'll have to sign up for the Live Steam mag now.  I've been considering it, but haven't done it yet.

That is really great Chris!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 15, 2018, 11:00:45 PM
I dare say this will most likely be more spectacular than the Lombard, if that's at all possible.

No doubt with respect to the first part...as to the last part...he could have done the Stanley....durn him.  ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 15, 2018, 11:07:57 PM
I dare say this will most likely be more spectacular than the Lombard, if that's at all possible.

No doubt with respect to the first part...as to the last part...he could have done the Stanley....durn him.  ;D
After the shovel, promise!!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 15, 2018, 11:09:49 PM
Congratulations on the Live Steam deal!  That is super cool :)
Maybe I'll have to sign up for the Live Steam mag now.  I've been considering it, but haven't done it yet.

That is really great Chris!
Kim
If they could get more article submissions, especially on things other than just trains, they'd go back to monthly issues. They pay for articles, everyone start writing!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 15, 2018, 11:24:22 PM
Congratulations on the Live Steam deal!  That is super cool :)
Maybe I'll have to sign up for the Live Steam mag now.  I've been considering it, but haven't done it yet.

That is really great Chris!
Kim
If they could get more article submissions, especially on things other than just trains, they'd go back to monthly issues. They pay for articles, everyone start writing!!

Oh, missed that. Congratulations!!

There's a lot of members who could provide very interesting articles.
I could only comment in the peanut section.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 17, 2018, 08:30:18 PM
Thanks Zee!

And pass the peanuts!

------

Yes, I am back working on the model again, been spending most of the time in Fusion working on the rest of the plan sheets, so nothing to show from the shop. Also been getting some time in on the sea turtle sub mechanisms.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on January 18, 2018, 03:31:19 AM
Back from Cabin Fever, will be starting up the Marion build again this week - see photos over on the CF thread in the Shows forum....

One other bit of news I can finally announce after another meeting with the editors at the show. The build of my Lombard Log Hauler will be starting as the cover story in Live Steam/Outdoor Railroading magazine starting in the March issue! It will include full plan sets for the model, along with much of what you read in the build thread on the forums here. Very exciting (for me, anyway!). The build will be spread over a bunch of issues, they dont know how many yet, but probably 8 or 10.

Back to unpacking the rest of the models/tools/purchases from the show, then probably more work on the Marion bucket tomorrow...

This is really great news Chris........congratulations.  :ThumbsUp:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: jschoenly on January 18, 2018, 02:29:14 PM
Chris - You are out of control.  In a fantastic and crazy manner that I can dig (get it, shovel, ha!), you are out of control.  The modeling, rendering, animation, the assemblies (the chain everywhere over pulleys??) and all of it is just awesome.  I wish I was a little less crazy at Cabin Fever to get to sit down and chat with everyone more, but it was great to at least chat for a few.  Congrats on the articles coming and keep up the great work.  I will certainly be following and now I know who I'll come to with Fusion Questions!  :)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 18, 2018, 03:10:39 PM
Chris - You are out of control.  In a fantastic and crazy manner that I can dig (get it, shovel, ha!), you are out of control.  The modeling, rendering, animation, the assemblies (the chain everywhere over pulleys??) and all of it is just awesome.  I wish I was a little less crazy at Cabin Fever to get to sit down and chat with everyone more, but it was great to at least chat for a few.  Congrats on the articles coming and keep up the great work.  I will certainly be following and now I know who I'll come to with Fusion Questions!  :)
It was great to meet a bunch of the group in person finally! I had a great time at the show, car came home a bit heavier with the purchases there, great to see the products at the vendors in person to see what the tools/castings are really like.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 18, 2018, 03:24:41 PM
Another update on the sea turtle sub - got the articulation mechanisms worked up yesterday that will go in the neck, tail, and flippers. They all have a flexible plastic rod as a core, and Kydex plastic panels along the length with stainless steel cables down the sides. The cables are fixed at the outer end, and flex the assembly when the inner ends are pulled. Here is a picture of what they look like at rest (picture is on its side, the camera flipped it)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/vvixvqbiv/IMG_1880.jpg)
The one I am holding is for the neck. In the background, you can see two of the flipper ones that already have a curve in them - the cables on the sides were epoxied in the pulled-to-one-side position, to give them a curve to fit the shape of the front flippers, which curve out from the body and back along the sides of the shell.
And here is what happens when I pull the cable on the left, it curves the whole thing to the left:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wl1q83js7/IMG_1881.jpg)
And sqame on the right cable, curves to the right:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tflpv1inr/IMG_1879.jpg)
Here is a better shot of one of the flippers pulled to one side with a blank background:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/hp370hsxz/IMG_1878.jpg)
These will be surrounded by molded rubber 'skins' for the flippers, cast from the master parts that I showed in earlier posts.

Anyway, enough side tracking (swimming?) - back to the Marion shovel bucket for today!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 18, 2018, 04:58:46 PM
Back on the Marion bucket again...  Started by milling the tab on the end of the door latch bar, and drilling a close fit 1-72 clearance hole.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/b6ey0rvon/IMG_1883.jpg)
Then cut it to length, and filed a radius on the end so that it will push back on the striker plate when closing, just like a normal house door latch does.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dazb1v513/IMG_1885.jpg)
Now on to the fiddly-bits - the levers that make up the latch mechanism. The first lever is wider than the others, so started with some wider bar, drilled/tapped the 1-72 holes:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/jooe54x2f/IMG_1886.jpg)
The links were cut off from the bar, and the taper and round ends done on the belt sander. Then made up the second link, and also the short link for the other end. Here it is assembled (the bolts will be trimmed to length later, easier to handle with them left long for now).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/agw5ofiaf/IMG_1889.jpg)
and test fit where they will go:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4372l65on/IMG_1890.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on January 18, 2018, 05:08:29 PM
Congrats on the magazine coverage Chris well deserved. .... :praise2:

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 18, 2018, 06:30:23 PM
Thanks Don!

Next linkage in line is the final cross-link, with a split yoke at one end that goes around the middle link and anchors at the end to an adjusting screw. To make the yoke, I took two lengths of flat stock, bent a jog in the middle (reused the chain bending jig from the Lombard) and clamped it with a spacer.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wnusme7c7/IMG_1891.jpg)
After a little silver solder and a little heat from the torch, then a little filing, I had a little link ready for some little drills and 1-72 threads!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/abwzt0nnr/IMG_1895.jpg)
Here it is test fit on the bucket.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/s1yoe1tiv/IMG_1896.jpg)
Next up is to make the brackets that the short link in the upper left bolts to, and the adjusting bracket that the lower right of the yoke attaches to. The left end of the yoke bar gets the chain back to the lever on the dipper boom.

How many of you are getting the song stuck in your head, The Ankle Lever attaches to the, Leg Lever...!  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 19, 2018, 08:44:01 PM
More work on the bucket door latch mechanism. For the base that the short link and the retaining link bolt into, I drilled/tapped a couple short bits of round rod on the lathe, cut them to length, and silver soldered them into holes in some brass plate - left the plate large to give something to hold onto.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6gpgw2w1z/IMG_1901.jpg)
Then cut off and filed the plate to shape,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/s34hd42c7/IMG_1904.jpg)
and riveted it in place on the door. With this in place, the short link proved its worth (thanks again for spotting it guys!), and the latch is moving properly.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wdj584eyv/IMG_1905.jpg)
Then on to the adjusting bracket, which will hold a threaded rod that the yoke link anchors to. The upright was cut/drilled from some brass, with a hollw threaded steel rod down the center.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ow9xthplz/IMG_1906.jpg)
That block was screwed to a brass plate, and another plate cut and clamped to it to form the angled brace. The parts were then all silver soldered together. The notch in the angle plate is to clear the rivet hole at the end of the bracket.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/g193iydo7/IMG_1908.jpg)
Here is the bracket all trimmed down and filed to shape, set in place on the door.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5fp86dmlz/IMG_1909.jpg)
Last bracket is to hold the other end of the retaining bar. Here it all is assembled onto the door. Still need to make the retaining bar and the threaded rod for the yoke. One thing I realized when moving the links around to test it, was that the retaining bar and its rear post do two things - keeps the link under it from rotating down too far, and also acts as a limit stop so the chain cannot be pulled too far and pull the latch completely out of the guides. Now it makes more sense why they had that retaining bar.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/l16jqcdzr/IMG_1911.jpg)
Once those last parts are made, I'll try and do some pics and/or video to show the motion of it. There is already enough there to see that it auto-latches the door when the bucket is tipped down! 
 :cartwheel:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 19, 2018, 08:48:51 PM
Oh, and to confirm the measurements from the drawings a week or so ago - the linkage so far has a reduction in motion from the end of the final link (where the chain will attach) to the latch bar itself of 6 to 1. The lever on the boom that the chain runs to will add another 3 to 1 reduction, so the final levarage will be 18 to 1 in how far the operator has to pull the rope to the movement of the latch bar.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on January 19, 2018, 09:41:59 PM
Amazing progress on your bucket latch system there, Chris.

And I love the turtle mechanism too, very clever! :)

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on January 19, 2018, 11:28:16 PM
Great to see it coming together Chris  :cartwheel:

I'm glad my tiny contribution was useful but bad news about that BIG box of snow you sent as a thank you gift . . . it must have melted in transit so we just got rain.

Now, if I can just find your secret for slowing down time I might get some workshop time of my own . . .  :thinking:

Mike.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 19, 2018, 11:36:24 PM
Great to see it coming together Chris  :cartwheel:

I'm glad my tiny contribution was useful but bad news about that BIG box of snow you sent as a thank you gift . . . it must have melted in transit so we just got rain.

Now, if I can just find your secret for slowing down time I might get some workshop time of my own . . .  :thinking:

Mike.


 :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on January 20, 2018, 01:08:34 AM
Chris....will you not have to increase the chamfer angle or face depth on the main latch bolt for clearance here?............... Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 20, 2018, 01:15:37 AM
Chris....will you not have to increase the chamfer angle or face depth on the main latch bolt for clearance here?............... Derek
Doesn't need it - that cross lever is wider in the center, tapers to each end, which is enough to handle the small angle it pivots. If that lever were parallel sided, the it would need the relief you describe, but Marion took that into account, I have copied their shape. It doesn't show in the pics, but there is about a 8 or 10 degree angle to each side.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gbritnell on January 20, 2018, 12:43:28 PM
Hi Chris,
Simply put, outstanding fabrication!!!!
gbritnell
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on January 20, 2018, 03:07:45 PM
That release mechanism in an interesting design. I wonder how much of the design was engineering and how much was.......once the pin was in place............them just adding livers, pivots, and brackets until an operator pulling on a rope could release the pin.  :shrug:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 20, 2018, 05:53:06 PM
That release mechanism in an interesting design. I wonder how much of the design was engineering and how much was.......once the pin was in place............them just adding livers, pivots, and brackets until an operator pulling on a rope could release the pin.  :shrug:

Jim
By that time the basic steam shovel design had been around for about 50 years, so I'm sure a lot of things got fine tuned, tweaked, and changed!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 20, 2018, 08:04:35 PM
Got the last couple of parts on the bucket door made today, the retaining bar and the adjusting rod. Here are a couple of photos - first shows the linkage in the 'latched' position.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/krvnete2f/IMG_1914.jpg)
and here it is in the 'unlatched' position, after the chain has been pulled and the latch bar retracted.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/n97em35on/IMG_1915.jpg)
As you can see, the chain end of the final bar moves a lot, the latch bar just a little. The short link we discussed does not move a lot, but it does swing and keep the latch bar from jamming in its guides. I'm definitely going to have to go light on the paint on these parts, to keep them from sticking!

And here is proof that it all works, a short video of opening/closing the door a few times:
[youtube1]https://youtu.be/rTgQ8ZHEOVM[/youtube1]
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: fumopuc on January 20, 2018, 08:12:15 PM
Excellent job.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on January 20, 2018, 10:14:41 PM
So the latch closes via its own weight?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 21, 2018, 12:49:41 AM
So the latch closes via its own weight?
That's right, they used gravity for everything possible, there are no springs anywhere. Even the return on brake lever, etc is by counterweights. On the real thing, that latch bar must weigh quite a lt, on the model best I can do is hope the brass is heavy enough, though I could always sneak in a tiny spring if its not reliable.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 21, 2018, 12:52:37 AM
Excellent job.
Thanks Achim, I am quite pleased with how it is going.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: sco on January 21, 2018, 07:55:57 AM
That action looks perfect and sounds good too!

Great job Chris.

Simon.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on January 21, 2018, 10:31:38 AM
Hi Chris,
 Now that is very slick! Great job!

Right back to  :popcorn:

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: scc on January 21, 2018, 01:53:16 PM
Excellent result...I love the positive click when it shuts :ThumbsUp:    A  lovely model in it's own right. Well Done.         Terry
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 21, 2018, 02:26:23 PM
Thanks guys!

The one thing I have not been that happy with is the durability of the paint (duplicolor auto lacquer) with all the handling. I just ordered a can of DuraBake gun finish to try, been recommended to me from several sources, it normally requires an hour back at 350 but can also cure with just 180 for 3 hours, so will be safe for the soldered parts on the bucket shell. Should be interesting to see how it compares - I'll update after that arrives and I can test it, in a week or two...

Next up I think is the dipper boom. The real ones are in two long beams, each a oak spar with a steel plate wrapper, all bolted/riveted together. The rivets were ground off flush, so the boom would slide through the opening in the main boom smoothly. I need to look at the stock I have to decide if I will piece it up or just make it from one piece of bar stock. The seams and rivets may just be simulated, lightly cut in. The gear rack will be interesting to do, never cut a 'flat' gear before, may need to make up a longer arbor for the gear cutter to get the length needed.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 21, 2018, 04:27:22 PM
I checked my metal stocks - I have some bar I could use to make the dipper handle (boom) out of one piece, but it would be quite heavy. So, decided to piece it up with the wood core like the original and rivet it together. I didn't have enough thin/wide stock (dipper needs 1/16" x 1", main boom 1/16" x 2" stock for the sides), so sent in an order to McMaster for some, should have it in a few days if they hold true to form.

So, in the meantime I'll start on the fitting that goes between the end of the handle and the bucket - on the original this was a big casting, I'll be piecing it up out of bar stock and milling in the fingers. Here is what it will look like:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/b1uhcsd7b/Dipper_Front_Fitting.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/t4nk40grr/Dipper_Front_Fitting2.jpg)
Should be able to make it out of two plates, silver soldered together. The tapers will require the tilt table on the mill, most likely. The two booms go into the slots shown in the second photo, the fingers on the front in the first photo fit into the back of the bucket.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 21, 2018, 09:08:48 PM
Started on the dipper end fitting - got the two blocks to make it up cut down and trimmed to length/width from larger bar, and started in on milling the slots for the dipper side rails to fit into. I am going to mill the slots in both parts first, then silver solder them together, so that the slots can go all the way through to the ends.
Here are the raw blocks:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mkpdbz55j/IMG_1916.jpg)
and after milling the slots in the lower block.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/x7j6hel0n/IMG_1917.jpg)
The slots are .375 wide, and need to be positioned properly in relation to the sides of the block, so I started with a .250 end mill, and made several passes to get the slots started and taken to depth, staying within the layout lines I sketched on. Then, once I was to the full depth, made passes on just the inner edges of each slot to get those edges the same distance from the sides and the right distance (.625) apart. Then, took each slot to its desired width one at a time.
Next time I will do similar steps to the end block to put in its pattern of slots, then screw them together for silver soldering (I've tried using wire to hold parts together, but too often wind up melting through the wire and the parts shift).
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: b.lindsey on January 21, 2018, 09:38:06 PM
Amazing stuff Chris, I am just checking in on progress and saw the video for the first time....love it!!!

Bill
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 21, 2018, 09:40:22 PM
Kerrin said it well..."very slick".
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 21, 2018, 10:05:01 PM
Laying out the stock for the booms, and I'm getting a better feel for how big this beastie is going to be! The sides on the main boom are nearly 2 inches tall!   :paranoia:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 22, 2018, 12:43:04 AM
Next step on the dipper handle front fitting, milled the slots in the upright block. These slots dont go all the way through, there is a cross-bar part way along it. So, took out the bulk with the 1/4" cutter like on the other block:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/51b14k413/IMG_1918.jpg)
then came back with a smaller cutter to make the corner radii smaller:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fbdg3t9c7/IMG_1919.jpg)
Here are the blocks so far, ready to drill/tap for some small screws to hold them together for silver soldering - they will go into the narrow parts of the webs, since the thicker section will have a pivot pin hole bored through, and I don't want to interfere with that.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3z0um05s7/IMG_1920.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/4ojmydth3/IMG_1921.jpg)
The blocks still need the bolt/pivot holes drilled, as well as having some of the faces beveled - going to have to make sure I do that in an order which allows for holding everything in the vise.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ClaytonFirth on January 22, 2018, 12:56:22 AM
Brilliant work Chris.
I'm a relative newcomer hear, and only found your Lombard project last week. I'm now up to date with the Lombard and the Marion projects and would just like to add my sincerest appreciation of the work you do. Bloody amazing. One day hopefully i might have enough of a workshop to do just part of what you do. For now, i just satisfy myself with designing models in Fusion.

 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 22, 2018, 01:15:51 AM
Brilliant work Chris.
I'm a relative newcomer hear, and only found your Lombard project last week. I'm now up to date with the Lombard and the Marion projects and would just like to add my sincerest appreciation of the work you do. Bloody amazing. One day hopefully i might have enough of a workshop to do just part of what you do. For now, i just satisfy myself with designing models in Fusion.

 :popcorn:
Thanks Clayton! I took it the other way around - workshop first, then learned(ing) Fusion, having a ball with both!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on January 22, 2018, 03:57:41 AM
Hi Chris,
This  :popcorn: munching is getting addictive! Having to wash it down :DrinkPint: !

Just one question on the drawing of the front fitting you show 4 “slots” on the machined part you have cut only 2, with my  :DrinkPint: did I miss something or have you got a cunning plan & all will be revealed in the next installment?

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 22, 2018, 04:29:55 AM
Hi Chris,
This  :popcorn: munching is getting addictive! Having to wash it down :DrinkPint: !

Just one question on the drawing of the front fitting you show 4 “slots” on the machined part you have cut only 2, with my  :DrinkPint: did I miss something or have you got a cunning plan & all will be revealed in the next installment?

Cheers Kerrin
Ding! 


We have a winner!!


Excellent catch - after I posted the drawing, i was looking back at my photos to see where the bolts were, and noticed that I had goofed on the drawings. Well, sort of. I had drawn that part from one of their catalog illustrations, which did not match this shovel. So, I fixed the 3d model before cutting the slots. I was wondering if anyone would notice, was going to wait a couple days before showing the correction.


Take two cookies out of petty cash!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 22, 2018, 04:32:14 AM
Oh, and there will be 2-1/2 slots, the top bar in the middle gets divided with a narrow slot, got tired and stopped before that last cut. If you look really close in the last photo, you can make out that detail in the plan behind the part.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on January 22, 2018, 05:23:58 AM
Oh GOODIE cookies!

Here’s me thinking it was just  :DrinkPint:

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Admiral_dk on January 22, 2018, 11:16:10 AM
Hi Chris

Did you post the pictures differently in post #564 ...?
I ask because I can't see them - they are just marked with an X in a small black square and nothing happens when I click on them  :'(
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 22, 2018, 01:34:45 PM
Hi Chris

Did you post the pictures differently in post #564 ...?
I ask because I can't see them - they are just marked with an X in a small black square and nothing happens when I click on them  :'(
Post 565 maybe? They are same as the other ones, through Postimage.org. sometimes that site clogs up for a while. I am seeing all of them at the moment, anyone else having trouble seeing them?
Next step on the dipper handle front fitting, milled the slots in the upright block. These slots dont go all the way through, there is a cross-bar part way along it. So, took out the bulk with the 1/4" cutter like on the other block:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/51b14k413/IMG_1918.jpg)
then came back with a smaller cutter to make the corner radii smaller:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fbdg3t9c7/IMG_1919.jpg)
Here are the blocks so far, ready to drill/tap for some small screws to hold them together for silver soldering - they will go into the narrow parts of the webs, since the thicker section will have a pivot pin hole bored through, and I don't want to interfere with that.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3z0um05s7/IMG_1920.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/4ojmydth3/IMG_1921.jpg)
The blocks still need the bolt/pivot holes drilled, as well as having some of the faces beveled - going to have to make sure I do that in an order which allows for holding everything in the vise.

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Admiral_dk on January 22, 2018, 08:57:13 PM
It might just have been a temporary snag as you suggest.

I see them just fine here at home now - I'll check again at work tomorrow.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 22, 2018, 09:20:23 PM
It might just have been a temporary snag as you suggest.

I see them just fine here at home now - I'll check again at work tomorrow.

Thank you.

 :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 22, 2018, 09:29:55 PM
Bunch more done on the dipper fitting today - started out by finishing up the slots on the vertical plate, adding the middle one on the top, and taking a pass from the ends to square up the corners. This picture shows the right and middle one squared up, other 3 still to be done.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kz2aeisbr/IMG_1922.jpg)
and here it is test fit together, with a pair of 1-72 screws through the webs at the bottom to hold it together - this will be used for the silver soldering step.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bra1xunuf/IMG_1926.jpg)
Next up was to get the pivot hole drilled through the vertical plate:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tu34p1otz/IMG_1927.jpg)
Then used that hole to set the height in the mill vise, took a pass with the part moved to several angles, using the pin to keep the cuts concentric to the hole:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/thbqivtpj/IMG_1928.jpg)
Then drilled the bolt holes that will attach the bottom plate to the booms, and set it at an angle for milling the top surface down:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kmaw8c2c7/IMG_1929.jpg)
And a nibble off the thin end to set the angle there as well:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/v94pds5cn/IMG_1930.jpg)
The vertical plate also gets its outer face tapered, leaving a narrow rib in the center:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/x0xo8nm4n/IMG_1932.jpg)
And the final milling step, tapering the left/right edges of the bottom plate, using the fixture plate on the rotary table to align the cut to the mill cutter:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/k9ji2677r/IMG_1933.jpg)
Then bolted the two parts back together, and did a test fit on the bucket - just needed a little adjustment with a file to get it to seat in fully, and held with a cross pin. Here are some pics of that:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/lol2qxilj/IMG_1934.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/5qcd0s8xz/IMG_1935.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/ctk8gem3b/IMG_1936.jpg)
So, just need to get the fitting silver soldered together and cleaned up. Time for a cookie!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on January 22, 2018, 10:37:44 PM
Whew!  That's a lot of work for one piece, Chris!  You must me exhausted.  I am just watching your updates.

Enjoy the cookie, you've earned it!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: J.L. on January 23, 2018, 12:21:36 PM
Chris,

This is just outstanding machining and precision with details. You should be very proud of this significant part of the machine.

 Just think of how much work this device will be asked to do if in the real world. So much technology was called for with its design.

A stunning thread!  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 23, 2018, 02:27:00 PM
Thanks guys! They definitely built them well, this one was in operation for decades at the quarry. Yesterday I was digging  :Lol:  through the patent dates on the plaque on its side, which lists just patent dates, and matched up all but 3 of them. The leaders at Marion had quite a lot of patents!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 23, 2018, 07:36:52 PM
And one more set of brackets to make for the bucket, these go on the top of the boom, with a s-shaped bar running up to the top of the bucket. Got the main shape nibbled out of a bar of 303:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8l2j4dl4n/IMG_1937.jpg)
Then rounded the tops with several passes, again using the drill as a pivot to position the part at a number of angles in the vise.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qb47pf6fb/IMG_1938.jpg)
Then the two brackets were cut apart, and trimmed to length. Here they are completed:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/y3uvhdwyv/IMG_1940.jpg)
On the real ones, there would be a small shock mount inside these, to reduce the shock loads when the bucket hits rocks (or wayward cars). For the model, not enough room for that to be practical, so I made them solid.
Last parts for the brackets are the s-shaped bars. I don't have any 1/8x3/16, so started by milling off the side of some 3/16 square bar. They will be heated for bending, then measured for the cross pin holes - the bars are left long for now, dont want to commit to length till after they are bent to shape.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tuq5f8guv/IMG_1941.jpg)
Also, my order of the thin flat bar stock has arrived, so I can start laying out the stock for the dipper booms. I am going to make the booms like the originals, with a white oak core surrounded by steel plates.

EDIT: Oh - and this afternoon is moderately warm outside, so I am going to silver solder up the big bracket.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 24, 2018, 09:11:17 PM
Now that I have the flat stock for the dipper and main booms, it was time to figure out how to hold it for machining. The bars need to be narrowed from 1" to .9375", and trimmed to length. Later on, I'll need to do similar operations on the I-beams for the main frame. All of them are longer than the travel on the mill table (the floor beams will be around 30" long). Time for another fixture plate, something I can register against the edge of the mill table so I dont have to spend hours readjusting it every time it goes on and off.

I started looking at some aluminum bars I have, but none were large enough to handle the length and also the width of the stock (the main boom stock is 2" wide), so I went to my wood shop, and found some 'naturally grown metal' stock, a chunk of Guatambu, also known as Ivorywood, that was left over from a carving years ago. It is very hard and dense, and takes a thread a bit better than aluminum does. One side was recessed down (on the mill) to leave a nice straight lip to hang over the edge of the mill table, then a set of holes for both the t-slot bolts to hold it down and a set of 10-32 tapped holes for the hold-downs were drilled in. With it bolted to the mill table, snug against the lip, a shallow recess about .900" wide was milled into the top to give something for the stock to rest against. Here it is, holding one of the dipper boom side bars:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ya913z52v/IMG_1942.jpg)
Using this setup, I milled each of the four bars down to the finished width. Since the bars are longer than the table travel, I made a pass as far as it would go, rewound the table back, slid the bar to the right, and made a second pass to finish off the cut. For the longer main boom and floor beams, it will take several passes per bar. One thing I found when setting up is that the 1" bar stock actually varies in width along its length, from 1" to 1.015" wide - one side of the stock was a little wavy in places, so I milled that side off, using the straight edge against the stop.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5xdjdiys7/IMG_1943.jpg)
With the bars to width, I went and cut a pair or oak strips for the cores of the dipper handle. The table saw is no where near accurate enough for this, so I left them slightly oversize, then used the fixture to mill them to width and thickness. The cores were taken .025" shorter than the steel bars, to leave room for the end plug to notch into place.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3st6cfpfr/IMG_1944.jpg)
Here are the bars and cores done. One set is clamped together on the upper right, the other set is laying on the table. Note that the top bar is thicker than the bottom one. Not sure why they designed it that way, though it may have to do with the fact that the bottom edge also will get the gear rack bolted to it.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/yzrtgcsrr/IMG_1945.jpg)
And the bar held up to the bucket for a better sense of scale. The bottom bar has a slightly rounded edge, that needs to be filed slightly to let it fit snug into the slots in the fitting.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ddcszc1x3/IMG_1946.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on January 24, 2018, 09:55:45 PM
Top bar is in tension, bottom in compression under a bending load.  Might be a reason foe thicker top.   :thinking:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 24, 2018, 10:05:18 PM
Top bar is in tension, bottom in compression under a bending load.  Might be a reason foe thicker top.   :thinking:
That's a possibility.  The top also has the T shaped gear holder sliding along it, wonder if the made it thicker to allow for wear as well?
Wouldn't it be great to be able to go back and pick these guys brains?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on January 24, 2018, 10:45:42 PM
Just awesome!    :ThumbsUp:

 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 25, 2018, 08:04:48 PM
Top bar is in tension, bottom in compression under a bending load.  Might be a reason foe thicker top.   :thinking:

Took another closeup look at the photos, since this was not making sense to me - why it would be a different thickness top and bottom plates of the dipper boom? Through the grease/dirt on the boom, I could make out that there is a second layer of plate on the bottom to bring it up to the same thickness as the top. The bottom piece only runs about a third of the way back from the bucket, then the gear rack plate runs the rest of the way. Don't know why they made the bottom one in two pieces when the top is one - maybe thats what THEY had on THEIR stock pile!

So, easy enough to cut another length of the thinner stock for the bottom sides and add it to the stack - fortunately I have not started drilling for the bolts/rivets yet.

Since the rivets need to be flush with the surface of the plates, so they don't hit the main boom or gear guide, I'm going to experiment on some scrap with countersinking the hole, so the rivet has room to expand below the surface, then file off the top of the rivet head. Looks like they did something like that.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on January 25, 2018, 09:53:31 PM
Interesting bit of fabrication on those dipper booms. I'm glad you're making good progress as usual because I'm anxious to see how the dipper is located in the main jib so that it can slide and swivel while maintaining good contact between rack and pinion  :thinking:

No rush, because I like to try to imagine how I would do it, then see if I was right  :noidea:

Mike

P.S.  Actually, I think I've worked it out except for some details
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 25, 2018, 10:23:31 PM
Interesting bit of fabrication on those dipper booms. I'm glad you're making good progress as usual because I'm anxious to see how the dipper is located in the main jib so that it can slide and swivel while maintaining good contact between rack and pinion  :thinking:

No rush, because I like to try to imagine how I would do it, then see if I was right  :noidea:

Mike

P.S.  Actually, I think I've worked it out except for some details

This is the key part - it rides between the two sides of the dipper handle, with its top plate on top of the booms and the small gears engaging in the flat gear rack on the bottom of the booms. The axle through the gears extends out and holds the large gears you see on either side of the main boom (which is also made with two narrow side rails). That axle is held to the main booms with a pillow block. So, the dipper can pivot on that axle, and is driven in and out by the gears. The large gear is driven by a small gear on the crowd engine, located just below the large gear on the main boom.

Were you right?

 :cheers:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/micfknrxz/Slider.jpg)
There are two green arrows - the upper one points at the top of the plate in the drawing above, the lower one to the axle on that same fitting.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/a3pnkhsrr/IMG_1176a.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 25, 2018, 10:50:34 PM
Wow, what progress!

It's really interesting to see people develop models straight from the real thing.

At this rate, you'll be starting the Stanley this weekend. Right?  ;D

Enjoying the show!  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on January 26, 2018, 12:14:41 AM
Well, I was close enough to deserve the :DrinkPint: I treated myself to after dinner, but I assumed there would be some sort of roller guides on the top of the boom instead of the sliding plate. I guess the weight of the dipper arm would be almost enough to keep the rack and pinion engaged, so there perhaps wasn't too much pressure on that plate  :shrug:

At first I thought the loading on that axle would be too great for it to be the pivot point, but then I realised most of the heavy lifting is handled by the chain and the main jib.


My late father worked for a year in the Ruston Bucyrus factory as part of his engineering degree course way back before WW2, on dragline excavators I believe. He taught me a fair bit about machinery maintenance at 1:1 scale, although his career was in civil engineering. I have great memories of helping him strip down a couple of tractor engines for a de-coke.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 26, 2018, 01:03:38 AM
Wow, what progress!

It's really interesting to see people develop models straight from the real thing.

At this rate, you'll be starting the Stanley this weekend. Right?  ;D

Enjoying the show!  :popcorn:
Well, I've been looking at the plans for the engine, they are out on the back table. I also have plans from Germany for a model of the car, but cannot figure out some of the views. The engine plans were drawn from a full size engine, would need to scale them down a bit. Still an old favorite!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 26, 2018, 01:07:55 AM
Well, I was close enough to deserve the :DrinkPint: I treated myself to after dinner, but I assumed there would be some sort of roller guides on the top of the boom instead of the sliding plate. I guess the weight of the dipper arm would be almost enough to keep the rack and pinion engaged, so there perhaps wasn't too much pressure on that plate  :shrug:

At first I thought the loading on that axle would be too great for it to be the pivot point, but then I realised most of the heavy lifting is handled by the chain and the main jib.


My late father worked for a year in the Ruston Bucyrus factory as part of his engineering degree course way back before WW2, on dragline excavators I believe. He taught me a fair bit about machinery maintenance at 1:1 scale, although his career was in civil engineering. I have great memories of helping him strip down a couple of tractor engines for a de-coke.

 :cheers:
Seems like there would still be a lot of force on that axle, but as you say the chain on the bucket takes the worst of the load. There were some shovels that used rollers on that top plate, seen it in one of the patents, but Marion didn't put them on this model.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 26, 2018, 03:46:44 PM
Some more done on the dipper boom (depending where you are from, also known as the dipper stick, dipper arm, dip stick, etc - varied by region and country) parts. Laid out and drilled the holes for the bolts at the end which will secure the oak block spacer between the two arms.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/724uaiu5j/IMG_1947.jpg)
Also milled up the oak block and drilled its matching holes, and cut some 5-40 threaded rod for the cross bolts. The lower forward end of the block is angled to match the end fitting. The block still needs to be trimmed back to length.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/te2n3x0zb/IMG_1948.jpg)
I am going to need to go into production mode for both rivets and the threaded rod/nuts for the rest of the boom. The cross bolts/rivets will be installed first, then will drill the holes for the vertical ones that attach the top/bottom rails.
But first, off to the dentist in a little while, had a crown on a back molar decide to attempt an escape, need to go get that glued back in - hope he is not reading this thread and decides to use rivets!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 26, 2018, 09:15:13 PM
The dentist went really quick, just a quick clean up and re-glue of the crown!   :cartwheel:

So, back in the shop, been doing version 87.5 of the flippers for the turtle sub (keep learning new things with the materials and having to change the design of the mechanism, will report on that once it settles down, looking promising this time).

Also, got started drilling the holes for the rivets in the side rails, good chance to test the machinist jacks that followed me home from LMS at the Cabin Fever show (along with some vises, etc).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bpk33rok7/IMG_1950.jpg)
As I mentioned before, the outer ends of the holes will be countersunk slightly to give the rivet heads a place to expand into while keeping the surface flush.

Also, my order from Midway showed up with the bottle of DuraBake Enamel matte black paint. This is a bake-cured paint, thin coating, intended for the gun market so it should be durable. Comes in a couple dozen colors, mainly earthtones and camo colors, couple reds/blues too. It normally needs a 15 minute bake at 350F, but will also work with a 3 hour bake at just 185F, which means that I could redo the bucket paint and not have to worry about the soft solder I used to fillet the inside corners - also, being paint rather than a chemical blackener, it works the same on whatever the metal is.
It is meant to be sprayed or airbrushed on, but I figured I'd give it a tough test and brush on a thin coat and see how it holds up - there are a lot of small parts coming where it would be a pain to have to set up/clean out the airbrush over and over and over, so if it works okay for brushing that will save time in the long run.
Rather than strip the bucket down for the test, I gave the bucket door a light brush-on coating. Seems to cover pretty well, dries to the touch in 10 minutes or so, no nasty smells despite the solvents it uses - typical paint smell, but no where near as bad a lacquers. After a 15 minute dry time, then hung the part in the oven at 350F (preheated), then left it to cool.
Here it is set on top of the bucket shell (which is still the original paint).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6e56j1urr/IMG_1949.jpg)
Seems to be a good hard surface, first test was rubbing hard on the sharp corner of the brass lid with a fingernail, left no marks at all - did the same on the lacquer the shell is painted with, and it scraped off a strip. So, first impression is quite good. As I've noticed with other paints, ones that are supposed to be matte when sprayed come out glossier when brushed on instead, but that is fine. It went on thin enough, and without runs, so the lever mechanism still works, may give that surface a rub with a abrasive pad to get quick motion back, though it may just need a little oil.

I'll give it some more handling time, and if no issues develop I'll strip the other paint off the bucket and coat that as well. Instructions say that if needed additional coats can be applied and the part baked again, that is probably going to happen on some parts. For the shell, I'll try spraying it on. I got it in a 4 ounce bottle, they also have a larger size, plus spray cans - most of the reviews and resellers warn of needing to replace the spray nozzle after a couple of uses though, so I'll stick with the liquid bottles, and make sure I clean the airbrush ASAP after spraying.

So far, looks like a very promising paint for parts being handled a lot.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 26, 2018, 10:37:00 PM
Got the first side beam drilled and countersunk both sides, going to need a lot of rivets!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tai0f2xdz/IMG_1952.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on January 27, 2018, 02:25:37 AM
You don't want it to look too pristine.  A working machine after all.   :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 27, 2018, 03:24:31 AM
You don't want it to look too pristine.  A working machine after all.   :popcorn:
I agree - the brush marks give it some texture, but for large surfaces like the bucket shell the brush tends to leave thin streaks that are hard to fill properly, too much texture. The airbrush should work fine on those areas, hopefully this stuff cleans out well, otherwise its just brush work. It does seem to give a nice tough finish, much better than the normal paints do, seems to stick much better to the bare metal. True test will be all the handling/bumping/scraping it will get in the next weeks when assembling the rest of the dipper boom to it.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 28, 2018, 05:58:11 PM
The first dipper boom side has had its horizontal rivets installed - took a bit of experimenting on the first half dozen to narrow in on exactly how long to cut the rivets so they would come out nearly flush when peaned over into the countersunk holes in the beams. Once that was determined, cut a dozen or so at a time and installed them. Once they were all done, took it down to the carving/sanding booth (bank of muffin fans behind a furnace filter, with some plexi panels out front to help corral the dust) and used a small drum sander on the rotary tool to smooth off the rivets that were still a little high, then finished with a flat file. End result is a smooth set of faces that wont catch the main boom or the slider in the center. Same to do on the other dipper boom, then I can start on the top/bottom rails.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/v7xkmc6c7/IMG_1953.jpg)
It may seem like a lot of work to get a rectangular bar, but I am trying to make as much as possible just like the original, and this way also keeps the bar straight and light. The outlines of the rivets should shadow through the paint, just like they do on the original as well.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 28, 2018, 11:06:34 PM
Second boom now riveted like the first, can now start on the top/bottom panels of the booms.... Running a bit low on that size round bar, had to order some more to be sure I have enough for the main booms, going through a lot of it.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/uf3svwq5z/IMG_1955.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 28, 2018, 11:21:11 PM
Wow.

I'm beginning to understand the power of your cookies. Sugar = energy.
Is one of the ingredients caffeine as well?

What are the rivets made of?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 28, 2018, 11:38:58 PM
Wow.

I'm beginning to understand the power of your cookies. Sugar = energy.
Is one of the ingredients caffeine as well?

What are the rivets made of?

No caffeine, just peppermint! 

The rivets are 303 stainless steel rod - definitely harder to pean over than brass rivets, but working quite well. There is about 1/32" sticking out above the surface either side at the start, and it winds up nearly flush when the tops are exapnded into the shallow countersink at each opening - several hits with the ball end of the hammer to expand them, do that both sides, followed by a few with the flat end of the hammer to draw it all tight.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 29, 2018, 03:17:28 PM
This morning I've started drilling the rails for the top/bottom panels on the dipper boom. First clamped the rails onto the boom, and lined up the holes in the end fitting, used it as a drill guide for the first four holes.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/svq17ppzr/IMG_1956.jpg)
With the end fitting bolted on to keep the rails in position, and some more clamps down the length, began drilling the rivet holes.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/f21oinpon/IMG_1957.jpg)
These holes are taking longer to drill than the horizontal ones since the oak doesn't clear chips well on narrow deep holes, so some pecking is needed to clear the flutes. The holes are spaced to go between the horizontal rivets. They will be countersunk the same way the horizontal ones to make the rivet heads go flush. Some of the ones over the gear rack will be countersunk deeper, so I can bolt the rails through and grind off the bolt heads. I still need to work out the holder for the gear cutter to make the racks, the one I've been using won't have enough reach for the length of the racks.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 29, 2018, 09:28:07 PM
Continuing on with the dipper booms, got the holes drilledin the first boom for the vertical rivets, and then counterdrilled part way through the thicker top plate in several places for the bolts to hold the gear rack in place on the bottom edge.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8ngwauyzr/IMG_1958.jpg)
Then cut and installed the rivets in that boom:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/66553lmt3/IMG_1959.jpg)
Now need to repeat the vertical holes/rivets for the second boom...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 30, 2018, 10:31:35 PM
Well, a whole bunch of rivets later, and the dipper boom parts are test assembled:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/any93vvpj/IMG_1960.jpg)
The assembly is held together by a set of horizontal and vertical bolts at the bucket end, and is attached to the bucket with a pivot pin at the lower front corner.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/sqrbv3juf/IMG_1961.jpg)
Still to do on the booms:
- make up a batch of scale size 5-40 nuts for the bolts, the ones on there now are standard size, way out of scale proportions
- bolt on the fittings at the top and make the straps that go to the top/back corners of the bucket
- make and attach the plugs at the back end of the booms
- make and attach the gear racks on the lower back sides of the booms
- strip the bucket, paint the bucket and booms with the bake on paint like I did for the bucket door. I'll use the longer time/lower temperature option on the paint due to the oak spacers on the booms.

I've been looking ahead at the gear racks, due to their length, I dont think it is practical to cut them with the normal round gear cutters, since they are a smaller diameter than the headstock, so the stock can't go past the headstock during cutting. So, I think I'll make up a single point cutter to be held in the fly-cutter holder and cut the racks that way. I used that sort of single point cutter on the first clock I made, so its a known procedure. I can turn the headstock of the mill 90 degrees, use the z-axis for adjusting depth of cut and the x axis to advance to the next tooth, y axis to make the cut for each tooth. Going to make the small pinion gear first, use that to test the rack tooth spacing on some scrap first.

Once all that is done, only a few thousand more parts to go on the model!   :paranoia:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 30, 2018, 11:52:20 PM
The detail is excellent.

And tell us the story on that anvil.  ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 31, 2018, 02:06:17 AM
The detail is excellent.

And tell us the story on that anvil.  ;D
Um, its about 3 or 4 pounds, bought it years ago, not sure where, probably from Rio Grande jewelry tools. Very handy, heavy enough to rivet heavy steel rivets without bouncing but small enough to fit in a drawer. I was using an offcut of iron bar the other day, remembered I had the anvil, finally found it in a big old tool chest in the wood shop.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 31, 2018, 05:48:39 PM
This morning I started making up a batch of scale nuts for the bolts on the dipper boom. I have a couple boxes of 'small pattern' 5-40 nuts, but they are still a bit out of scale. Rather than make them from scratch from hex or round bar, thought I'd try a shortcut and mill down the ones I have. I drilled/tapped a hole in the end of a bar, ran some of the nuts onto a socket head bolt, jammed them down tight, and ran that tight into the bar held in the hex collet holder on the mill. A few passes later, and some smaller-than-small-patter nuts...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/nze4r5ymv/IMG_1970.jpg)
Here are the milled down nuts, center, with the original on the left. On the right is a real one found smushed into the gravel under the steam shovel, still has the tar and grime on it from the machine. I used that to scale the proportions down to the model nuts. Could be a few thou thicker, but its pretty darn close.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/69cg64dc7/IMG_1966.jpg)
Just need to make up a few more sets, and I can assemble them on the booms.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: tvoght on January 31, 2018, 06:00:22 PM
Nice trick with the nuts Chris. I just had one of those "now why didn't I think of that?" moments. I so often do, when following your builds.


--Tim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: RonGinger on January 31, 2018, 06:43:03 PM
I use standard, but smaller nut and re-drill and tap them. A standard 2-56can be drilled out to 4-40, a 4-40 and be drilled for 5-40, etc

Its pretty easy to clamp one in a vise and drill and tap. Wonder of those combination drill-tap devices would work? i will have to try that.

My current project, the Cornwall Forge engine wants square nuts. I have not found a good way to do that yet.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 31, 2018, 06:43:40 PM
Nice trick with the nuts Chris. I just had one of those "now why didn't I think of that?" moments. I so often do, when following your builds.


--Tim

I tried making more at once than just the 4, but the flex of the bolt when longer made it iffy at best. Also tried it with the bolt held in the collet directly, but being able to tighten it down against the end of the rod worked much better. Only takes about a minute per batch, mainly to load up/remove/repeat the nuts. Also am making two passes down to the finished dimensions to reduce the depth of cut and the forces. Still, its a lot faster than drilling, parting, tapping, filing it all from scratch.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 31, 2018, 06:45:37 PM
I use standard, but smaller nut and re-drill and tap them. A standard 2-56can be drilled out to 4-40, a 4-40 and be drilled for 5-40, etc

Its pretty easy to clamp one in a vise and drill and tap. Wonder of those combination drill-tap devices would work? i will have to try that.

My current project, the Cornwall Forge engine wants square nuts. I have not found a good way to do that yet.
Ah, thats sneaky! I like it.

For square nuts, you could try the way I am making them but with the square collet holder, take a standard width one square, should be enough material if you start with the big hardware store ones.

Oh, and we want a build thread on the Cornwall Forge engine!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on February 01, 2018, 12:00:00 AM
lots more work done there ,I wish i could do more as everything i do seems to take forever !!  Also will you be putting spots of weld on the tines as they used to do to build them up after constant use ?  Just a thought !! :-\ :: :mischief:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 01, 2018, 02:22:54 AM
lots more work done there ,I wish i could do more as everything i do seems to take forever !!  Also will you be putting spots of weld on the tines as they used to do to build them up after constant use ?  Just a thought !! :-\ :: :mischief:
So I can call any dings in the teeth 'damage from that big rock'?!

One thing I need to do when the weather warms up (a long list) is get over there and take tracings of the teeth and of the 'root' of the one missing one, to make up a pattern for a replacement. Not sure if I'll carve out a big chunk or make a wood pattern and get it cast somewhere. The base of the missing one is complete, just the replaceable tooth tip  that is missing.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: bouch on February 01, 2018, 02:51:35 PM
My current project, the Cornwall Forge engine wants square nuts. I have not found a good way to do that yet.

I made about 75 square nuts, threaded 2-56, for my wooden beam engine.  If you find a good way to make them, let me know, as making those square nuts was a royal PITA.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 01, 2018, 06:16:57 PM
My current project, the Cornwall Forge engine wants square nuts. I have not found a good way to do that yet.

I made about 75 square nuts, threaded 2-56, for my wooden beam engine.  If you find a good way to make them, let me know, as making those square nuts was a royal PITA.
Would milling down the standard 2-56 hardware store ones like I did, but to square using a square collet holder, work for them? Or do they need to be even larger across the flats? This method worked nicely for these hex nuts.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dan Rowe on February 01, 2018, 07:19:08 PM
My plan to make square nuts is to use a square collet or my new 4 jaw scroll chuck from Sherline and drill, chamfer and cut off with the lathe. Then use a fixture in the vise with a slot the width of the nuts and a clearance hole for the tap. This method of tapping nuts was shown by Ramon in recent tapping thread.
Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 01, 2018, 07:49:29 PM
Well, now that everyones nuts are squared off....   :o

Next stage on the dipper boom was to bolt on the holders for the top braces (had not put on the newer smaller nuts when this pic was taken).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6rlvykimv/IMG_1971.jpg)
Then milled down some bar stock to size for the angle braces, left long, and heat-bent them to shape. They were held in the vise at the opposite end from the bend, heated red with a torch, and bent over with some pliers. Took a couple of heats to get the bend due to the thickness of the bars and how fast they cooled. With some minor tweaks, got them to be straight into the brackets at the bucket end, and parallel to the boom at the other.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wn5mhrs6f/IMG_1972.jpg)
Then drilled the bucket end for the cross pin and filed the end round. With the bucket set to the proper angle to the boom with a protractor (the bucket is not at 90 degrees, it is tipped forward several degrees to give it better bite into the ground), the other end was marked at the bracket on the boom, and drilled there. With the one side pinned in place, the other side was marked and drilled to match - this is one of those times where marking from the actual parts beats marking from the distance on the plance, with this many parts in between the tolerances can build up too fast (at least for me).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gowwrnddz/IMG_1979.jpg)
As you can see, I've stripped the original paint off the bucket shell - it was not holding up that well to handling, so it will get repainted along with the boom with the new bake-on enamel that I tested on the bottom door, which is holding up great so far.
Here it all is with the bucket pinned in place, door is still off till after painting.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4zsx3oepj/IMG_1978.jpg)
Next up is to make the plugs at the back end of the booms, which slip into the ends of the steel wrapper and against the inner wood core. The back of the plugs are a half-round shape, so am setting up the rotary table again for that.
After that, need to make the lever that the door chain attaches to - that bolts on to the bottom fitting near the bucket, and then I can start on the gear rack.
One item that arrived this week was a print copy of the 1902 Marion steam shovel catalog that I obtained. One tidbit of information in there (among many, they brag about all the design features the way new car brochures do today), was a discussion of why they used the wood cores in the booms. I had seen references before that it helped prevent fracturing the steel, which could happen with an all-steel boom, but in this writeup they also mention that with an all steel boom there was a tendancy for the boom to take a permanent twist if it was flexed to one side, like if it hit a boulder on one side of the bucket during a scoop. With the wood core, they say it resists the twisting better, and rebounds back to shape better than the all steel version, though they say that they would supply an all-steel boom if requested by the buyer. Lots of interesting stuff in those catalogs. They usually have a bunch of photos of shovels in action at customer sites - I've noticed that almost every customer added their own custom features, like permenant enclosures for the coal deck, walkways down the sides (there is very little room to walk past the engines inside), one even had a wood tower on top with a big light, presumably for working at night.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 01, 2018, 08:33:03 PM
Forgot to include this picture:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/jmtvl52zb/IMG_1980.jpg)
Just weighed it - boom, bucket, and door are 4.6 pounds so far.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 01, 2018, 08:40:58 PM
In looking at the bucket photos and in person, it seemed chunky, so I checked the photos of the real one and I realized I missed something on the yoke that spans the bucket - the thickness (front to back) at the bottom is correct, but I forgot to include the taper that it has, at the top where the pulley attaches it should be thinner. So, before painting I need to take the yoke off and do a little milling on it.
 :Doh:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: J.L. on February 01, 2018, 09:57:59 PM
Beyond words Chris.
A master at work.
John
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on February 01, 2018, 10:47:52 PM
" With the wood core, they say it resists the twisting better, and rebounds back to shape better than the all steel version"

Interesting reporting from the manufacturer Chris......do they talk about a particular wood specie?..[we have soft woods to iron bark which range dramatically in density and mechanical properties]

We see you have a bolted [one piece] Oak block of wood at the bucket end within the dipper boom boxed structure, will you be replacing this with longitudinal laminated sections which would be as per actual build?...or would a one piece section of wood have been used?

This also brings the direction of the growth lines within the timber to best resist the rotational twisting  :hammerbash: moment imposed on the box section of the dipper boom

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 01, 2018, 11:35:42 PM
Will you please slow down? I, for one, cannot keep up.
Go make some cookies. Do some carving. Swim with your subs. Provide some quality play time with your elves.

Try to reach my level of progress.  :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 01, 2018, 11:42:38 PM
" With the wood core, they say it resists the twisting better, and rebounds back to shape better than the all steel version"

Interesting reporting from the manufacturer Chris......do they talk about a particular wood specie?..[we have soft woods to iron bark which range dramatically in density and mechanical properties]

We see you have a bolted [one piece] Oak block of wood at the bucket end within the dipper boom boxed structure, will you be replacing this with longitudinal laminated sections which would be as per actual build?...or would a one piece section of wood have been used?

This also brings the direction of the growth lines within the timber to best resist the rotational twisting  :hammerbash: moment imposed on the box section of the dipper boom

Derek
Hi Derek,


They say they use white oak for all the wood parts. They used single blocks, not laminations, for the blocks. The main boom is constructed the same way as the dipper, just larger. On the smallest machines, the booms were wood only in some cases, where medium and large ones all had the wrapped wood. On the shovel here, the center spacer block at the base of the main boom has a lot of rot on the top surface, but its still a massive block. The center blocks appear to be solid chunks, this predates glue lam beams. Hard to say which way they oriented the grain inside the booms, if anything specific, since it is wrapped, and I'd get in a lot of trouble if I took it apart!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 01, 2018, 11:50:33 PM
Will you please slow down? I, for one, cannot keep up.
Go make some cookies. Do some carving. Swim with your subs. Provide some quality play time with your elves.

Try to reach my level of progress.  :lolb:
Reminds me of the old joke, I'll type slow since I know you don't read fast!   :ROFL:


And this IS slow progress! I also spend a lot of time on two archery leagues, pistol league, two rifle leagues, am building the turtle sub, watching TV, taking care of my mom, eating cookies, researching Marion shovels, napping, reading, carving, running subs, ... Not my fault that you are still in that silly universe with only 24 hours in a day! Retire already!!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 02, 2018, 12:33:07 AM
Not my fault that you are still in that silly universe with only 24 hours in a day! Retire already!!

Know of a worm hole nearby?

The holes I've tried are filled.  :facepalm2:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 02, 2018, 12:45:14 AM
Not my fault that you are still in that silly universe with only 24 hours in a day! Retire already!!

Know of a worm hole nearby?

The holes I've tried are filled.  :facepalm2:
Only that one Chrichton used on Farscape,leads to a nasty part of the universe...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on February 02, 2018, 09:47:48 AM
They say they use white oak for all the wood parts. They used single blocks, not laminations, for the blocks. The main boom is constructed the same way as the dipper, just larger. On the smallest machines, the booms were wood only in some cases, where medium and large ones all had the wrapped wood. On the shovel here, the center spacer block at the base of the main boom has a lot of rot on the top surface, but its still a massive block. The center blocks appear to be solid chunks, this predates glue lam beams. Hard to say which way they oriented the grain inside the booms, if anything specific, since it is wrapped, and I'd get in a lot of trouble if I took it apart!!

I can see the logic in using the timber core for its resilience, and anyone who has come across old oak beams will know how tough it is. I guess they would have used straight-grained, well-seasoned wood to avoid any tendency for warping or twisting as it aged.  There would seem to be ideal conditions for moisture to be trapped within the booms, resulting in corrosion of the metal in such close contact. But it obviously couldn't have been a major problem if they used it routinely - maybe there would not be enough oxygen in there for serious rusting to occur  :thinking:

Like everybody here I am still following along with a mixture of envy, respect and wonder  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on February 02, 2018, 01:00:48 PM
With that handle scooping M&Ms will be easier.   :)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 02, 2018, 01:24:31 PM
With that handle scooping M&Ms will be easier.   :)
It'll grab quite a mouthful!  Gotta lay in a supply for testing... Need to test it out on plain, peanut, dark, mint...!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on February 02, 2018, 02:02:04 PM
Looking great Chris!

Better hunt out some giant M&M's, just for trail purpose's, so you can check out different "bolder" sizes    :lolb:  :popcorn: would be no challenge!

Can you fit a cookie or two in the bucket......sure the elves will find out!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 02, 2018, 03:09:24 PM
Looking great Chris!

Better hunt out some giant M&M's, just for trail purpose's, so you can check out different "bolder" sizes    :lolb: :popcorn: would be no challenge!

Can you fit a cookie or two in the bucket......sure the elves will find out!

Cheers Kerrin
Great idea on the giant m&m boulders!


As for cookies, check back to post nbr 332, Christmas cookies fit!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Mcgyver on February 02, 2018, 03:15:42 PM
yes, it is looking great - beautiful workmanship!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 02, 2018, 06:29:08 PM
Thanks guys!

More parts on the dipper handle booms - the back end plugs. These are half-round pieces that fit into the ends, sealing up the core and most likely is rounded to make it easier to fit the dipper through the center gap in the main boom when setting up at a new site (they would remove the main and dipper booms and transport them on a separate flatcar when moving to a new site by rail). Since there would be nothing to hold onto if I cut the parts to length first, I rounded the ends on the rotary table with the whole bar intact - did one at each end of the bar.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/coh170mfr/IMG_1982.jpg)
The end mill would not reach all the way down in one cut, so it was done in two sets of passes. On the second pass, I stopped just short of the table and left a thin sliver that I filed off later.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wvugzcmhz/IMG_1986.jpg)
Then, switched out the rotab for the vise, and started cutting the tenon that will slip into the end of the boom. First cut the top, then the sides, lining up the sides to meet the edge of the top cut.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/58hrl86g7/IMG_1988.jpg)
And finished with the bottom cut, meeting up with the sides.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/f5ssealrr/IMG_1990.jpg)
The parts were cut off the bar, and test fit:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/hzvxrqvnr/IMG_1991.jpg)
The overhang at the bottom will overlap the end of the gear rack. Test fit was good, so drilled, riveted, and sanded the rivets off flush just like before.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xld9bpfbr/IMG_1995.jpg)
Also, as I mentioned the other day, I tapered the top of the yoke on the bucket, which I had forgotten to do when I made the yoke. Set it up in the vise on the tilt table, and took a few cuts with it tilted a couple of degrees, then sanded the corners to ease the edges. Looks much better, was too chunky before, did not match the original shape.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bm6uoidx3/IMG_1996.jpg)
So, next is to make the small lever that the door release chain attaches to, then on to a fun part, making the pinion gears and the gear racks for the bottom of the dipper booms!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 02, 2018, 06:47:53 PM
Update on the discussion about the wood core in the booms: I found this picture in their catalog nbr 50, showing that the oak is in three pieces stacked up for the inside of the boom. It does not say which model shovel this was for, or whether this was the main or dipper boom.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4k8x24n47/Boom_Cross_Section.jpg)
You can see that the grain is mostly on edge, not flat, though the top piece is at a 45 degree angle - they are not taking the same care that needs to be done for selecting pieces for bending and laminating for fine furniture, obviously, but it is plenty sturdy.
I looked back through my photos of the booms on the shovel here, and can see some evidence in the grain that they did stack very thick boards for the large deadwood spacers between the main booms as well, with the seams also running horizontally and bolts through vertically. The end spacer piece on the dipper appears to be one slab, probably since that one is much narrower overall - the spacers on the main boom are huge, and would have included heartwood if cut from one piece.
Details inside details!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 02, 2018, 10:36:19 PM
Well, that was an interesting trip through the gear design/cutting books (Ivan Law and Jones/Ryffel books) to learn how to design a gear rack to fit an involute gear. Definitely going to need some chocolate chip therapy to get the brain to cool down!

Neither book gives a complete diagram and set of formulas for laying out the gear rack, but between the two its all there. Here is what I wound up with, assuming the module 0.6 gear driving the rack, drawn up in Fusion360 and dimensioned out as a 2D drawing:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/zdatk7qlj/Gear_Rack_Drawing_v1.jpg)
It looks correct to me, at least at the moment. Hopefully its right, will look again later with fresh eyes and see if I spot any glaring brain-farts. If any of you spot anything, please let me know!
Assuming this looks plausible, I am going to start by cutting the gear, do some more spot checks on that, then grind up a single-point fly cutter to cut the rack with. If it was a lot larger I would be able to make it with a slitting saw and appropriate setups on the mill, but its pretty small spacing - the gear is only a little over 7" in diameter on the real thing, and this is 1/16th that size, so the tooth size gets pretty small. Hopefully it works out big enough to be functional.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 02, 2018, 11:39:40 PM
Nice pictures. The bucket is awesome!

P.S. Farscape was a great show.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on February 03, 2018, 02:38:41 AM
Hi Chris,...found some pictures on graces guide.....enjoy......
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 03, 2018, 02:56:30 AM
Willy, those are great! I love the "attachment" for the traction engine, very clever. The revolving one would be a fun one too, notice that it has dual gauge railroad wheels too. Nice!!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steam Haulage on February 03, 2018, 09:56:50 AM
Chris,

If you have never seen it 'The Engineer' is still going, it's full of useful information and many what would now be called 'newsbytes' Founded in 1856, see Wikipedia. Published in the UK but covers the whole World, sometimes you might not think anything interesting occurs in the UK anymore such is the worldwide coverage. Graces guide has links for mags up to about 1960.
It's never been chea\p to subscribe to but is chases the development of all sorts of machines from the initial conception right through to implemtation.

On Graces Guide there are links by company - all the shovel manufacturers we know of have mentions. Marion, Bucyrus and Rustons all feature, sometimes with picures of the intenals of their workshops.

Today it is essential reading if you are building jet engines, nuclear power plant and anything approaching the cutting edge.

Jerry :old:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 03, 2018, 09:15:30 PM
Nice pictures. The bucket is awesome!

P.S. Farscape was a great show.
That show is one of my favorites, was bummed when they cancelled it a season early.   :cussing:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 03, 2018, 09:17:06 PM
Chris,

If you have never seen it 'The Engineer' is still going, it's full of useful information and many what would now be called 'newsbytes' Founded in 1856, see Wikipedia. Published in the UK but covers the whole World, sometimes you might not think anything interesting occurs in the UK anymore such is the worldwide coverage. Graces guide has links for mags up to about 1960.
It's never been chea\p to subscribe to but is chases the development of all sorts of machines from the initial conception right through to implemtation.

On Graces Guide there are links by company - all the shovel manufacturers we know of have mentions. Marion, Bucyrus and Rustons all feature, sometimes with picures of the intenals of their workshops.

Today it is essential reading if you are building jet engines, nuclear power plant and anything approaching the cutting edge.

Jerry :old:
Hi Jerry,

I've browsed it a couple of times, an amazing amount of info there, some companies/engines more than others, but well worth the look.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 03, 2018, 09:25:59 PM
A few more parts today. Started out by making up the little lever that the release chain that the bucket door latch goes to, then a rope from there leads back to the secondary operator on the turntable. From the old photos I've seen, the rope section actually has 4 or 5 feet of chain at the lever end, probably keeps it from blowing around the lever on windy days.
Also, got the two small gears made that will engage the rack on the bottom of the dipper boom. They are 17 tooth, and the closest standard size to the real one after scaling down is a Module-0.6 cutter. Fortunately, that cutter set was one of the things on my Christmas list, so it has just gotten its first run in the machine.   :)
With a length of bronze bar held in the 4-jaw (trust it not to slip more than the 3-jaw when cutting gears), and the end turned down to size and drilled/reamed for the .125" shaft it will get, I transferred the chuck over to the rotary table (set vertically) on the mill, centered the cutter, moved it in for the cut, and started the passes for each tooth. Here it is partway around:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ypyl8sw7b/IMG_2000.jpg)
and all done:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/u42h0gidz/IMG_2001.jpg)
Then, moved the chuck back to the lathe, and parted off the two gears. Here they are along with the lever:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mo37eo2ef/IMG_2002.jpg)
A few measurements on the gears verify the diagram I made of the rack, so next I'll take a 1/4" lathe tool blank and see if I can grind the tip for the teeth on the rack...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Bluechip on February 03, 2018, 09:50:33 PM
Chris

I would be interested to know how you centred the cutter.

I've only had a couple of goes at gear chopping but if you use the 'trapped feeler gauge' method I could move the cutter up & down by a fair bit and still the blade was vertical. A gear cutter edge being a fairly large radius the procedure does not work as it does 'between centres' ?

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 03, 2018, 10:19:01 PM
Chris

I would be interested to know how you centred the cutter.

I've only had a couple of goes at gear chopping but if you use the 'trapped feeler gauge' method I could move the cutter up & down by a fair bit and still the blade was vertical. A gear cutter edge being a fairly large radius the procedure does not work as it does 'between centres' ?

Dave
Hi Dave,


Centering it by looking at the outer edge is tough since its such a shallow curve, so in this case I cranked the table over so the tip of the cutter was at the shaft hole on the end, and centered the height by eye - handy that I am quite nearsighted, so if I take off my glasses and moving in close its like using a magnifier. For the normal and farsighted a magnifying glass would work. I got it within a thou or three, which is plenty close enough. On large gears with large bores, I like to chuck up a rod turned to a point before chucking up the real part, gives a easy to see reference.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 03, 2018, 10:20:15 PM
Hold something with a sharp point on it in the chuck. Line the gear cutter up with that to center it. That's what I do.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 03, 2018, 10:21:41 PM
Hold something with a sharp point on it in the chuck. Line the gear cutter up with that to center it. That's what I do.
Agreed, that's what I do for larger gears.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on February 03, 2018, 11:52:11 PM
Damn fine work is all I can say Dog. Keep it up and the photos coming I do enjoy this.


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Bluechip on February 04, 2018, 10:53:31 AM
Hold something with a sharp point on it in the chuck. Line the gear cutter up with that to center it. That's what I do.
Agreed, that's what I do for larger gears.

Ah!   Thank-you Gents ...
I was faffing about trapping the gauge between the blank and cutter.   :headscratch:
Didn't think about making one of them a point.
No excuse, the BS0 head is socketed 2MT, I can use a centre.
But then I can never see the  obvious.    :embarassed:

Very impressive build, Chris     :praise2:   Don't know how you persevere.   

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jo on February 04, 2018, 12:24:57 PM
I measure the width of the cutter and half it = A. I measure the diameter of the gear blank and I half it = B. I then get a height gauge and measure the top of the work = C.

I now subtract B from C and add A = the required height to the top of the gear cutter. Using the height gauge I set the top of the gear cutter using the knee of the mill  ;)

Jo

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Bluechip on February 04, 2018, 01:11:15 PM
Hi Jo

That sounds good ...  :ThumbsUp:

What I did, amongst other things, was to establish the centre height of the BS0 which is 3.992". ( Claimed as 4"  :headscratch:  but I'll let them have that ).

Then did a similar process to you except .....  fly in ointment ....  my set of 0.75 Mod cutters vary in thickness. ( ex-RDG )  ( 5.60mm to 5.22mm, higher cutter #s. being thinner ).
So  if I were to make gears using different number cutters I would have to reset the Z axis.  But in retrospect, no big problem.  :ThumbsUp:
I had read of the 'calibrated eyeball / feeler gauge' method and wondered if it was as effective but quicker.
Will have to have another go sometime, back to de-coking greenhouse. Now mercifully almost clear of brown stuff.   :whoohoo:

PS I did produce a pair of 32T 0.75 Mod gears in 12mm PVC which seemed to mesh rather nicely much to my surprise.  :)

Dave




Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 04, 2018, 03:42:02 PM
Hi Jo,


The only problem I have with that method is some of my cutters don't appear to have the cutter tip centered in the disc. The profile of the cutting portion is symmetric, but the center disc is a little thicker on one side. Thats why I like to center on the tip instead.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 04, 2018, 08:07:05 PM
This morning I ground the cutter for the gear rack - drew some 20 degree lines on the tool rest on the slow speed grinder with a fine wheel, and took down a 1/4" HSS tool blank to shape. Here is what it looks like:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/o45zp1uqf/IMG_2006.jpg)
And the setup on the mill, with the head turned sideways. I had to remove the riser block under the column, and am using the vise since the bit won't reach the longer notched table I made for the booms. So, I'll use the vise, and step it over every couple of inches.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xopmbxrs7/IMG_2007.jpg)
I pre-calculated out and made a list of the handwheel positions from the diagram, so that I could just concentrate on the positions rather than having to do the math in my head for a 0.07421 move every time. Here is the start of a test piece, seemed to go well:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/crte79ebr/IMG_2005.jpg)
and the rest of the test piece:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/987ghgyrb/IMG_2009.jpg)
The gear moves smoothly over the rack, so the calculations must have been correct.   :cartwheel:

Next up, make the longer bars....

Just thinking, with the rack blanks bolted to the booms, I can make the full length set of cuts, since the booms will support the bar. That will save having to line up the last slot when moving the bar in the vise..... Should work, will find out!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on February 05, 2018, 01:49:31 AM
Chris that is awesome dog I .........like.........  :Love:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 05, 2018, 01:56:16 AM
Chris that is awesome dog I .........like.........  :Love:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Thanks Don, Glad to see you along for the ride!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on February 05, 2018, 06:10:29 AM
Interesting way to do the rack.  So you didn't make infinitely large buttons to shape your tooth profile?  You just ground it free hand?
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 05, 2018, 02:02:13 PM
Interesting way to do the rack.  So you didn't make infinitely large buttons to shape your tooth profile?  You just ground it free hand?
Kim
Thats right, when I looked up the formulas for rack teeth, found out that for involute gears, the form of the rack teeth is a simple straight sided tooth, so all I needed was to grind a flat 20 degrees off center on each side, then a touch to flatten the tip, checked the width of that with a dial caliper. A lot simpler shape than I had expected.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 05, 2018, 07:46:23 PM
Today I got a start on cutting the actual gear racks. First one was drilled/threaded/bolted on with some threaded rod and nuts, rod going halfway through the rack blank so as not to interfere with the gear teeth. Set it up in the mill, holding up the far end on a machinist jack to make sure the weight of it did not make it slip down, and started cutting teeth. In this shot you can see why I needed the longer fly cutter, to clear the headstock and motor pulley as the rack was moved along:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/swg9jg67r/IMG_2011.jpg)
Here it is with all the teeth cut. The last section will get a thicker piece on it, to form a stop for the gear so that the boom cannot come all the way out of the small gear and traveller.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wg2799gnb/IMG_2012.jpg)
So, one rack down, one to go, then get the end stops formed. I also need to make some stepped nuts, so that I can bolt in the racks from the other sides and then mill off the top of the nuts.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 05, 2018, 11:44:27 PM
Got the other gear rack cut this afternoon (looks just like first one, so no extra picture), ready to start on the nuts for attaching them to the booms. Looks like a very cold/snowy week coming up, so good time to stay indoors and play in the shops!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: jschoenly on February 06, 2018, 01:52:46 PM
My current project, the Cornwall Forge engine wants square nuts. I have not found a good way to do that yet.

Ron - Gang tool plate and mach4 mini lathe rigid tapping?  ;)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on February 06, 2018, 03:13:45 PM
If I needed to make a quantity of square nuts, I'd try to do it on the lathe with square stock in a 5C collet.  Drill and tap, then part off each one.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: wagnmkr on February 06, 2018, 10:59:53 PM
Same as Kvom ... square stock in a 4 jaw ... drill about 1 1/2 to 2 inches ... tap and part off and repeat. Done it many times and yes, it is mind numbing after a bit, but three or four sets a day can make quite a pile of square nuts.

Tom
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 06, 2018, 11:34:30 PM
I'll ask one more time, why not try it the way I made the hex nuts smaller, with a set of normal hex nuts held on a bolt in the square collet block, and mill the sides down to square. Worked great and fast for making small hex ones, no drilling or tapping time needed at all. Seems like it would work for the square nuts just as easy as the hex ones I did.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on February 06, 2018, 11:54:43 PM
Chris, I don't think shape even matters. If it can be grabbed.... grab it!! Sure, the fellows lucky enough to have shape collets it makes sense for them. But with the Sherline I think I would do what you did..did.

 :cheers:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 07, 2018, 02:12:55 AM
Chris, I don't think shape even matters. If it can be grabbed.... grab it!! Sure, the fellows lucky enough to have shape collets it makes sense for them. But with the Sherline I think I would do what you did..did.

 :cheers:

Pete
I only have the round collets - its the holder that is hex or square. Taking a couple passes with an  end mill on off-the-shelf nuts is a whole lot faster than spotting, drilling, tapping, parting from square stock.

Anyway, back to the Marion!

Today was spent on the computer, designing up the model version of the slew/crowd/steering engine internals. As you may recall, those engines use a very complex set of passages and valves to combine the throttle and fwd/reverse into one central valve inside the engine, with no Stephenson links at all, just a single eccentric per cylinder. It makes use of a lot of extra passages in the block, and a double-level D-valve slider on each cylinder. I had designed up a simplified version that I figured would work for the model, and today I finally started merging that design into the 3D model of the real one.

All went well, till it worked out that the central valve would have been too large to fit the casing at this scale - the o-rings it needed took up too much length. So, a small redesign using a second d-valve, and it looks like it will fit. I have the 2D sketch done up in Fusion for the central valve and the cylinder valves, ready to start extruding out to 3D. It turned out (not surprisingly) to need a different throw on the main eccentrics than the original, so I took a side trip to remake the eccentrics and straps in the 3D model also.

Should be able to finish up the 3D model work tomorrow, and get back into the shop on Thursday.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: RonGinger on February 07, 2018, 02:17:47 PM
The square nuts I need are 3-48. That is .156 across the flats. I dont have a square collet that small.  The across points is .220, so I could use a 1/4" collet on round stock, then put that in a square collet block and mill the 4 sides. My smallest parting tool will waste 1 nut for everyone I get.

Its going to be slow, but I only need 12 of them, and we are forecast for a big snow today, so I guess I will just hunker down and make them.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 07, 2018, 09:23:03 PM
This morning I finished up the 3D cad work for the slew/crowd engines, I think. Still need to make up the 2D drawings for them, but that can be done piecemeal as I work on the booms, going to be a while before I get to the actual engines though I wanted to make sure they would work out.

Back in the shop this afternoon, finishing up the dipper booms. I made up 8 stepped nuts, with the round portion turned to fit in the countersunk holes around the threaded rod holding the gear racks in place.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/r8qrg7tcn/IMG_2013.jpg)
Then loctited and tightened up those in the holes, cut them off and ground them flush with the tops of the booms, so they look like the rivets around them. On the real thing, they were riveted in place, but I did not want to risk the damage to the gear teeth.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4k1kgnjon/IMG_2015.jpg)
As you can see, I also installed another layer of brass at the back end of the rack, held on with loctite and the rearmost bolt, and tapered them off on the belt sander.
I think this completes all the fab work on the dipper booms, and tomorrow I can get them re-assembled and painted (want to let the loctite cure up solid overnight first). The bucket shell will be painted at the same time, using the bake-on enamel I used on the bucket door.
Next parts will be the chain pulley that attaches to the middle of the bucket yoke. I found some steel chain that is pretty close to the accurate scale size, and will be using that for the main hoist and slew chains. Here is what the pulley looks like:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wlfltvz47/DSC_6171.jpg)
It has the pulley sheave enclosed in a sheet metal wrapper, with heavy straps down the sides. I'll be putting in the missing rivets and spacer sheet on the left edge, though!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on February 07, 2018, 09:44:52 PM
Looking good Chris!

Ron,
 For a skinny parting off blade use a piece of hacksaw blade, they work great, just gotta take your time on steel etc.
 I had a whole lot of “ special cups” to make from nylon for my ride trolleys I cunning used 3 blades side by side, 2 cut the spigot, with the added bonus ( very cleaverly designed......NOT! ) so that the 2 blades had a slight gap which gave a ring around the spigot to help hold the cup in & the 3rd cut it to lengthworked a treat! Had 90 odd to make so had to come up with something to make it easy!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on February 07, 2018, 11:22:21 PM
Always a pleasure to see more progress and setups Dog....... :cheers:


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on February 09, 2018, 12:28:17 AM
Hi Zee,
 MAYBE this will get Chris de-railed! IF he watches it right thru & looks in the background there’s something there that just might interest him any way!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oB9wjUlcFBk


Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 09, 2018, 01:01:58 AM
Hi Zee,
 MAYBE this will get Chris de-railed! IF he watches it right thru & looks in the background there’s something there that just might interest him any way!

[youtube1]https://youtu.be/oB9wjUlcFBk[/youtube1]


Cheers Kerrin
Great tutorial on the Stanley's, very interesting!


I take it you mean the nice old Ruston shovel off to the left? I wanted him to go circle back on that!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 09, 2018, 01:53:33 AM
Loved that video Kerrin! That was excellent! Thank you.

I did not notice anything in the background. How could I? This was all about the Stanley.

That was right good.

Chris...get your head out of the bucket. Stanley next!  :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 09, 2018, 01:56:51 AM
This afternoon I got the dipper parts painted and baked, after cooling down i found some thin spots, so will give it another touch-up coat tomorrow. While it was baking, went through the plans looking at the chain sheaves, think I'll make them all up at once while making the yoke pulley.


Assuming I don't get derailed and build a Stanley!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 09, 2018, 02:01:52 AM
Loved that video Kerrin! That was excellent! Thank you.

I did not notice anything in the background. How could I? This was all about the Stanley.

That was right good.

Chris...get your head out of the bucket. Stanley next!  :lolb:
We agree then, Stanley NEXT! After the Marion, that is!   :stickpoke:


Actually, after the Marion, need to decide if I build a large scale Stanley engine from the plans I have, or a small engine as part of a working car? Or both? Need to investigate the boiler for it, the German car plans are pretty complex.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on February 09, 2018, 05:55:23 AM
Hi Chris,
 You got it! Somebody from the UK can probably tell us we’re it is, looks to be a historic town / Museum, & then find some more info on the shovel.
 On theboiler front, why not just buy one! There is a company , or at least there was, that made the boilers, pretty sure I saw that on the UK Steam car web site.

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steam Haulage on February 09, 2018, 11:02:24 AM
It's at the Beamish Museum in the North of England http://www.beamish.org.uk/ (http://www.beamish.org.uk/)

Riding Shotgun is DoubleBoost John who has run a workshop and engineering interest channel for some years showing his activities and interests Just search YouTube for DoubleBoost.

Jerry
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on February 09, 2018, 01:32:46 PM
HI Chaps here is me pretending to be a proud owner of several steam cars !! I did travel shotgun in one and the acceleration was amazing...!!! also a pic of a steam engine conversion for a Morris Minor.  All in Norwich blighty !! I lost count of the number of taps cocks and valves !!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 09, 2018, 02:25:31 PM
Hi Chris,
 You got it! Somebody from the UK can probably tell us we’re it is, looks to be a historic town / Museum, & then find some more info on the shovel.
 On theboiler front, why not just buy one! There is a company , or at least there was, that made the boilers, pretty sure I saw that on the UK Steam car web site.

Cheers Kerrin
Buy the boiler? They make them at scale model size? I am not building a full size car!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 09, 2018, 02:27:18 PM
HI Chaps here is me pretending to be a proud owner of several steam cars !! I did travel shotgun in one and the acceleration was amazing...!!! also a pic of a steam engine conversion for a Morris Minor.  All in Norwich blighty !! I lost count of the number of taps cocks and valves !!
Beautiful pictures! (Of the cars that is!   :Lol:  )
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 09, 2018, 09:08:06 PM
This morning got started on the sheave for the chain pulley on the bucket yoke (hmmm, that looks like one of those phrase-names that come out as one long neat word in German). Started with a chunk of 1.25" steel bar centered up in the 4-jaw, used a parting tool to make the groove in the center that every other link sets into, then took one side down to shape, leaving the hub for the axle. Went back and forth with the turning bit and the boring bit to get the recess in the side shaped in.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bse485rkn/IMG_2016.jpg)
Then turned the part around, and did the same to the other side, taking it to final thickness too.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/pm2gx6x0n/IMG_2017.jpg)
And finished off by drilling/reaming the axle hole...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4ceumcw5j/IMG_2018.jpg)
By then, the second coat of paint had been baked on to the bucket and dipper handle, so I got everything reassembled again. Took a few turns of a reamer on some of the holes that had gotten paint in them, and a few scrapes on the latch bar, but it is back working like it did before the paint. Here are a few pictures of everything:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rdvfs4b8n/IMG_2019.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/4p68sk1kn/IMG_2020.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/51xmypozb/IMG_2021.jpg)
So far so good!

Next will continue on with the chain pulley frame.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: tvoght on February 09, 2018, 09:13:51 PM
Gosh, it looks spectacular.


--Tim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 09, 2018, 09:17:20 PM
Gosh, it looks spectacular.


--Tim
Thanks Tim! 

Every new part makes me realize how big a model this is going to be! Probably will travel in two cases to keep it manageable. The recent work on the crowd engine design proves it was a good decision to go this large though, the crowd and slew engines will be fairly small, and the steering engine is 30% smaller than that. Fortunately the hoist engine is a biggie (at least by comparison).
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on February 10, 2018, 01:29:45 AM
Hi Chris,
 Just figured that as each of the models you've built, Shay Lombard & Marion, have got progressively bigger ........Now you are telling us the Marion is going to be BIG & you will need to brake it down to take it places it just  shows that a full size Stanley with TRAILER for the Marion is the way to go!  :lolb: Zee will be with me on this!  :ROFL: :ROFL: :lolb:

Jerry thanks for the link.....off to check it out!!

Steam Guy,
 You big show off!!! Hope you didn't dribble TOO much on them! Would love to be able to check them out! Have friend who has a White steam car, Dad & I are helpful engineers on it & get to go for a ride. I posted a picture of the spare engine under re-build here a while back.

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 10, 2018, 03:40:22 AM
Hi Chris,
 Just figured that as each of the models you've built, Shay Lombard & Marion, have got progressively bigger ........Now you are telling us the Marion is going to be BIG & you will need to brake it down to take it places it just  shows that a full size Stanley with TRAILER for the Marion is the way to go!  :lolb: Zee will be with me on this!  :ROFL: :ROFL: :lolb:

Jerry thanks for the link.....off to check it out!!

Steam Guy,
 You big show off!!! Hope you didn't dribble TOO much on them! Would love to be able to check them out! Have friend who has a White steam car, Dad & I are helpful engineers on it & get to go for a ride. I posted a picture of the spare engine under re-build here a while back.

Cheers Kerrin
Kerrin, You have a very good point!


I know how to resolve this. Zee, put your new shop and all the machines on that trailer, bring it up here, and we can connect it to the back of my house. Then, illI start building full size Stanley Steamers!!   :Lol:


Seems perfectly logical to me!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on February 10, 2018, 03:42:56 AM
Chris,
 Sounds like a cunning plan to me!! Zee you on board with this??? Go on you know you want to!! :ThumbsUp:

Right back to your normal channel........ :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 10, 2018, 02:37:51 PM
Seems perfectly logical to me!

Therein lies the problem.  :)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 10, 2018, 06:28:36 PM
Seems perfectly logical to me!

Therein lies the problem.  :)


"Logic is a pretty flower that smells baad!"


 :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 10, 2018, 10:33:33 PM
After some playing with the chains i have, with the first sheave, not really happy with it. The real chain proportion is close enough for the length and width of the links, but the wire is just too thin for the right look.


So, spent some time with Fusion, and drew up a fixture to bend thicker rod into links, going to see what making my own is like. After the 4 and 6 piece links on the Lombard, how bad can one piece links be?   What? That bad? Oh, well!   :Lol:


I have enough 3/32 rod to test with, if it works out I will have to order another bundle of it, to make several feet of it. The links are open ovals, about 4 to the inch. This rod is tough enough that it won't need soldering, at least.


Have to see what bribes the shop elves want per foot of chain...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dan Rowe on February 11, 2018, 01:07:03 AM
Chris here is some chain that might be big enough for the job.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Strong-Heavy-11-13-15mm-Mens-Stainless-Steel-Silver-O-Link-Chain-Necklace-7-40/352272588412?var=621680080360&hash=item5205151e7c:m:m0jxj2btvNdRCVaehp6eJ1w

Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on February 11, 2018, 01:48:08 AM
That chain Dan found looks right. The links are just oval, not elongated like the one you have. Might be too big though...

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 11, 2018, 01:52:31 AM
Chris here is some chain that might be big enough for the job.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Strong-Heavy-11-13-15mm-Mens-Stainless-Steel-Silver-O-Link-Chain-Necklace-7-40/352272588412?var=621680080360&hash=item5205151e7c:m:m0jxj2btvNdRCVaehp6eJ1w (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Strong-Heavy-11-13-15mm-Mens-Stainless-Steel-Silver-O-Link-Chain-Necklace-7-40/352272588412?var=621680080360&hash=item5205151e7c:m:m0jxj2btvNdRCVaehp6eJ1w)

Dan
Hi Dan,


Thats definitely a good proportion, but those are too large, also with jewelry chain its usually too shiny. The chain I need would be 3/32 thick bar, 5/16 wide overall by 7/16 long overall links, not an easy combination to find. Probably out there somewhere, there are just SO many listings!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dan Rowe on February 11, 2018, 02:07:49 AM
Okey here is some 8mm wide. A torch will fix shiny.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/wholesale-5pcs-Lot-Stainless-steel-silver-Oval-Rolo-Link-Chain-necklace-8mm-24/142617064001?hash=item2134a3b241:g:7VsAAOSwH2VaKMK4

Dan

edit: search "8mm steel chain oval link" 
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 11, 2018, 03:38:26 AM
Dan - wow, that looks quite good, and would save a swarf-ton of work. For those prices, worth ordering some, will take a while to get here but no time is lost since there is LOTS of other work to do on the booms. Thanks much for checking those out for me, I was using different terms and not finding those heavy ones.

Take a bag of cookies out of petty cash!!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on February 11, 2018, 06:42:33 AM
Yep, that chain is just right! I just couldn't make sense of you making that little chain, Chris. Much better to do the other parts...

It's amazing that when I have trouble finding something I just ask here. Almost always, someone knows!

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on February 11, 2018, 01:37:06 PM
Re Stanley Steamer boilers....They have 3 layers of high tensile steel piano wire wrapped around the boiler to prevent explosions doing its worst !!!  As was explained to me by the chap in Norwich restoring them ...Also the chassis is in fact two long lengths of wood !!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 11, 2018, 02:33:40 PM
Re Stanley Steamer boilers....They have 3 layers of high tensile steel piano wire wrapped around the boiler to prevent explosions doing its worst !!!  As was explained to me by the chap in Norwich restoring them ...Also the chassis is in fact two long lengths of wood !!!
Clever, never knew that about the boiler on the Stanley's. Hope the piano wire was in tune if it exploded, to give a good note!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Admiral_dk on February 11, 2018, 08:22:27 PM
Shouldn't it be "ended on a good note"  :Jester:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 12, 2018, 05:51:20 PM
Not much to show for the last few days, I have diverted over to getting the Sea Turtle submarine project finished up before the next pool run in a couple of weeks. Should be back on the Marion soon - I did get the stock roughed out for the chain pulley side plates, but thats all.

On a side note, Live Steam has put up the cover for the next issue on their website, should look familiar to those who followed my last build!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6nw7cdvsn/Magazine_Cover.jpg)
I should be getting my copies soon, so back to staring at the mailbox between making submarine parts...

Back soon!

EDIT: short wait - the magazine copies arrived today, oboyoboyoboy....! 
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on February 12, 2018, 08:11:45 PM
Well done Chris!

Baby Lombards should soon start popping up all over the place!
Just had a thought......does that mean other non shop elves may get infected with the workshop virus? :facepalm:

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 12, 2018, 08:20:58 PM
Well done Chris!

Baby Lombards should soon start popping up all over the place!
Just had a thought......does that mean other non shop elves may get infected with the workshop virus? :facepalm:

Cheers Kerrin
You say that like its a bad thing!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Mikem on February 12, 2018, 10:18:07 PM
I better subscribe now !
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 12, 2018, 11:51:49 PM
I better subscribe now !
And stock up on bar stock!


 :ROFL:

For running on the dirt pile with your excavators, you could build it with a dummy boiler to hold the batteries, put an electric motor in the firebox, and power it that way.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 13, 2018, 12:06:28 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: Nice Chris!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on February 14, 2018, 06:28:24 PM
Hi Chris, It's not a Marion steam shovel, but I found this one interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug6hmnUvTps
There is quite the heated argument in the comments about welding cast iron.
This next one shows the previous one working again.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paFaA2WKCGY
here is the Threlkeld Quarry and Mining Museum
https://www.facebook.com/Threlkeld-Quarry-and-Mining-Museum-1492689190977462/
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 14, 2018, 08:08:20 PM
Hi Gerald - great videos!

That second one is unusual, wonder why they made it with the cab so high above the floor, with the big
gap? Also, the guy who went down and cleared the bucket halfway through really had to trust the guys back in the cab not to throw a lever!

Thanks!
Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 14, 2018, 10:20:54 PM
Well, I got requests for something to keep this thread going while I am diverted onto the Sea Turtle RC submarine build, so here goes - progress on the turtle!

Here is the gimbal mount for the propellors (this is twin-screw drive), that allows the props and the kort nozzle tubes they are in to both pivot together for steering plus diving/surfacing control.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/e9ikgxunr/IMG_2024.jpg)
There will be a u-joint on the inside of each tube, with its pivot point centered on the pivots of the gimbal, so that the length of the drive shaft will stay constant. One of the u-joints is in the foreground, next to one of the props. The props will be trimmed down to fit just inside the tubes, which will give them a flat end to the blades, which gives better performance in the tubes. Balll end joints connect to the servos, one on the upright between the tubes, another on the side of one tube. The tubes will be connected with another ball-end jointed arm, like the tie rod on a car, to keep them pointing together with one input. The shaft in the center will be on a bearing, to allow the whole assembly to pivot for the up/down control.
Also, been working on the hull. I started with seperate wood carvings of the turtle body, head, tail, and flippers. I took silicon molds from those, and cast fiberglass matte with epoxy to make the parts. The top of the shell is seperate from the bottom plate, to allow access to the inside. There will be a plxi tube inside for a water tight compartment to hold the radio and motors. The front flippers will pivot, to act as forward dive planes. The props will tuck in under the tail area.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/640iiryp3/IMG_2025.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/ssppicvif/IMG_2026.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/m2988xg2f/IMG_2027.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/h3lpuejzb/IMG_2028.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 14, 2018, 11:31:45 PM
Fascinating stuff Chris.

Are you on another forum where you show these projects being built?

Or are you just teasing us?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 14, 2018, 11:36:59 PM
Fascinating stuff Chris.

Are you on another forum where you show these projects being built?

Or are you just teasing us?
I've written up these unusual ones for the quarterly report of the Subcommittee, which is a forum and club for rc submarines. You have to be a paid member to get those reports, the group sponsers meets like our big one in August.


The teasing is just a bonus!   :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on February 15, 2018, 12:37:59 AM
May we have some MORE please Sir?
Lots more?
That is fantastic, I had to go change my shirt, luckily I am on my laptop and the keyboard stayed dry.
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 15, 2018, 02:33:23 AM
May we have some MORE please Sir?
Lots more?
That is fantastic, I had to go change my shirt, luckily I am on my laptop and the keyboard stayed dry.
Gerald.
We'll have to get you a waterproof keyboard!   :Lol:


I'll be posting more on it soon, am making a big push to get the sub done before the end of the month.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on February 15, 2018, 10:10:53 AM
Hi Chris,
 Oh I do like these side tracks you keep throwing in! That turtle is going be neat to watch!

Is that a pile of Stanley engine drawings I spied under Turtle?

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 15, 2018, 01:57:06 PM
Hi Chris,
 Oh I do like these side tracks you keep throwing in! That turtle is going be neat to watch!

Is that a pile of Stanley engine drawings I spied under Turtle?

Cheers Kerrin
Yes, those are the engine drawings for a full size Stanley motor, wondered if Zee would see that and yell at me for not making that instead!   :Lol:   It was going to be the current project, till I found out about the Marion here. It is next in the queue, though I'll be making it as a scaled down engine rather than the full size (too big for my lathe).
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 15, 2018, 09:49:38 PM
Is that a pile of Stanley engine drawings I spied under Turtle?
Yes, those are the engine drawings for a full size Stanley motor, wondered if Zee would see that and yell at me for not making that instead!

I can answer that... :cussing: :cussing: :cussing:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 15, 2018, 09:51:18 PM
Is that a pile of Stanley engine drawings I spied under Turtle?
Yes, those are the engine drawings for a full size Stanley motor, wondered if Zee would see that and yell at me for not making that instead!

I can answer that... :cussing: :cussing: :cussing:
Oh. Oh my. Such language!

Wait, what was that last one? Oooh, gotta write that one down!

 :lolb:

Zee, you have a nice new shop, I can send you the plans to start it yourself while you are waiting!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 15, 2018, 10:01:02 PM
So, while security escorts Zee off the premises, while making notes on the words for their next union meeting with management, here is a short video of the gimbal mount for the submarine props. Got the rest of it made up today, ready to mount onto the tail of the sea turtle.
[youtube1]https://youtu.be/41HW8oFi1Rs[/youtube1]

As mentioned before, this week is diverted from the normally scheduled build of the steam shovel to get the new sub ready before our next RC sub run at the Y pool in a couple weeks. Sorry for the delay on the shovel progress, but whatta-you-gonna-do, too many hobbies, not enough chocolate chips!   :shrug:

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 16, 2018, 12:41:15 AM
Is that a pile of Stanley engine drawings I spied under Turtle?
Yes, those are the engine drawings for a full size Stanley motor, wondered if Zee would see that and yell at me for not making that instead!

I can answer that... :cussing: :cussing: :cussing:
Oh. Oh my. Such language!

Wait, what was that last one? Oooh, gotta write that one down!

I'm happy to repeat.... :cussing:

But I know what you mean about having a bunch of hobbies. My problem is...I finish nothing. I enjoy the road too much.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 16, 2018, 01:01:41 AM
Is that a pile of Stanley engine drawings I spied under Turtle?
Yes, those are the engine drawings for a full size Stanley motor, wondered if Zee would see that and yell at me for not making that instead!

I can answer that... :cussing: :cussing: :cussing:
Oh. Oh my. Such language!

Wait, what was that last one? Oooh, gotta write that one down!

I'm happy to repeat.... :cussing:

But I know what you mean about having a bunch of hobbies. My problem is...I finish nothing. I enjoy the road too much.
Up at the shoot tonight, was talking with one of the guys that is big into old cars, steam engines, etc - turns out he has a real engine out of a Stanley steamer, complete except for missing one cylinder cap. Gotta get over and see that...
And, unless the really unlikely happens and I find out about another big steam machine in town again, the Stanley engine is my next build. Most likely. I think. Probably. For now....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on February 17, 2018, 04:42:46 PM
Hi Chris,
 Oh I do like these side tracks you keep throwing in! That turtle is going be neat to watch!

Is that a pile of Stanley engine drawings I spied under Turtle?

Cheers Kerrin
Yes, those are the engine drawings for a full size Stanley motor, wondered if Zee would see that and yell at me for not making that instead!   :Lol:   It was going to be the current project, till I found out about the Marion here. It is next in the queue, though I'll be making it as a scaled down engine rather than the full size (too big for my lathe).
That sounds like a good reason to get a larger lathe, one can never have too many tools.
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 17, 2018, 07:36:18 PM
Hi Chris,
 Oh I do like these side tracks you keep throwing in! That turtle is going be neat to watch!

Is that a pile of Stanley engine drawings I spied under Turtle?

Cheers Kerrin
Yes, those are the engine drawings for a full size Stanley motor, wondered if Zee would see that and yell at me for not making that instead!   :Lol:   It was going to be the current project, till I found out about the Marion here. It is next in the queue, though I'll be making it as a scaled down engine rather than the full size (too big for my lathe).
That sounds like a good reason to get a larger lathe, one can never have too many tools.
Gerald.
Got plenty of tools - a big lathe and mill would need a new room added like Zee did! Or convert one of my other shops to a machine shop, then I'd need a replacement room for THAT shop... Then need a place to display the bigger engine, so another room for THAT... Sigh. Never ends!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 17, 2018, 10:15:04 PM
Today's update for the sea turtle RC submarine (again, apologies to those tuning in for the Marion build, I am sidetracked for a couple more days on getting this sub knocked out for a run coming up soon, be back on the Marion by midweek at the latest).
The rear fins and the prop gimbal mechanism are complete and attached:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/x1zy1cm4n/IMG_2031.jpg)
Just epoxied in the pivot bearings for the front flippers, also completed the control horn and stop collar on the flipper shaft:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/h3r8b7k6v/IMG_2030.jpg)
The holes you see in the bottom of the shell are fill/drain holes - almost all these subs need them to let the water in/air out as it goes into the water, opposite when taking it out of the water. The hulls free flood, and there is a water tight cylinder inside for the motor/radio/batteries. Otherwise, the hull would have to be a lot stronger, and would need a lot more ballast to get them down to a decks-awash (in this case head-awash?) state for further diving. Some of the models, mostly those with internal ballast tanks that can take in/pump out water, do have a full pressure hull. This type, called a dynamic diver, does not, and needs forward motion on the dive planes (flippers) to take it the rest of the way under the surface.
Anyway, here is a shot from the head end, the head was attached yesterday. Something not usually seen, a sea turtle up on jack stands for maintenance! 
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9nrypfbx3/IMG_2032.jpg)
The top shell slips over the base plate, and has locator pins with little hitch pins to hold it in place.
So, the 'hull' is about done, time to move on to make the WTC for the electronics - that will be from clear acrylic tube and sheet....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 18, 2018, 05:26:13 PM
This morning I gathered up the parts that will go in the watertight compartment of the sub, started laying them out on the table, and quickly realized that to get them arranged in a small enough package that it would be best to lay it out in 3D. So, modelled up the parts as outline bodies in Fusion, and spent some time rearranging them till it all fit in a short tube. I have some 4.5" OD polycarbonate tube and some 1/4" flat sheet stock that it will be made of. The servo tray is plastic also, and will be attached to the end plate with all the thru-hull fittings, so it will all come out in one piece with all the servo rods in place.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/6cc1evnx3/Turtle_WTC_v8.jpg)
The green boxes are the servos, red is motor, blue is battery, brown is speed control, yellow is reciever, dark green is switch, and the fittings at the bottom right are the motor and output shaft pulleys, thruhulls, and the motor mount plate, which allows for tensioning the belt.
Should all build fairly quick, done several of these in the past, and I have the thru-hull fittings already, made a spare set on a previous sub build. The polycarbonate tube needs some flat blocks milled and bonded to it to give enough thickness for the bolts to hold the end caps on, which will have rubber gaskets to seal it all up.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on February 18, 2018, 05:31:09 PM
Hi Chris ,interesting stuff going on there...That was my job in the army as a control equipment technician !! no gyros though to stop it flipping over !!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 18, 2018, 05:37:10 PM
Hi Chris ,interesting stuff going on there...That was my job in the army as a control equipment technician !! no gyros though to stop it flipping over !!!
No warhead either!  Well, a turtle head, but it does not explode!
This one probably costs a few million less than the army ones too...  :o

Bet with your experience you could build a very nice RC submarine. Should have had you design the mechanism for my rowboat a couple years ago.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 19, 2018, 08:38:31 PM
Good progress on the WTC for the sub, started with cutting some strips of the plastic to make the thickeners for where the bolts go, and milled the inside faces to match the curve of the tube:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/jhitcr1xj/IMG_2035.jpg)
Cut the strips into the individual parts, and solvent-welded them onto the tube. After that set up, drilled and installed some threaded inserts I made out of brass (with grooves horizontally and vertically cut into them to give the epoxy a mechanical grip on them), and drilled for the prop shaft thru hulls. Here is where it is now:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kwke1gfvb/IMG_2036.jpg)
And a closer up view of the fittings and belt:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8up07becn/IMG_2037.jpg)
Next I need to make the mount for the motor, which will include an adjustable plate to allow for tensioning the belt when its all in place.
Hopefully a couple more days and I'll be back on the Marion build again!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on February 19, 2018, 10:42:49 PM
Just wondering what material you use for the glands on the prop shafts and servo rods . . . I expect you have mentioned it somewhere but I couldn't find it.

This stuff is just as fascinating as the machine builds. I love to see all your techniques and machining setups. All stored away for when I get some 'shop time  :cheers:

Mike.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 19, 2018, 11:13:49 PM
Just wondering what material you use for the glands on the prop shafts and servo rods . . . I expect you have mentioned it somewhere but I couldn't find it.

This stuff is just as fascinating as the machine builds. I love to see all your techniques and machining setups. All stored away for when I get some 'shop time  :cheers:

Mike.
Thanks Mike, probably have not mentioned it here. The thru-hull fittings are all viton o-ring compression style, the outer nut holds the o-ring, and pushes it against the 'post' part of the main fitting, which has a slight concave on the end to push the o-rong against the shaft. With a little oil or grease, and an o-ring that is a snug fit on the shaft, it makes for a nice watertight seal while allowing the shaft to spin (in case of props) or slide (servos). I put a little blue loctite on the threads of the outer nut to hold it in place but still allow for wrench turning it to adjust the compression.
All of the WTC seals on the end caps and around the fittings are cut from rubber sheet, usually viton, sometimes silicone. This setup is how I've done all my subs, and usually get no more than a teaspoon of water into the WTC (if any at all) for the hour or two of run time I get on the battery pack. We are only going a few feet down in most cases, maybe 6 or 8 in a good pool, so the pressures are not all that high.

One more shop session for the day, and I got the motor mount made. It is just a couple of standoffs, bolted to the end cap, with a plate that bolts to the end of the motor, and has a bolt hole and a slot to hold it to the standoffs and allow tensioning the belt. I have not used a toothed belt like this in a long time (last time was 35 years ago on the Sabino model), so I am not sure how tight it needs to be, so I am going to start a little loose and experiment from there.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/lh40hzlnr/IMG_2038.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/dodcq07yv/IMG_2039.jpg)
Next up will be the servo tray from some sheet plastic, get that made, then finalize the positions of the thru-hulls for the servo rods and the on-off switch rod. Once that all is done, I can wire it up, then make the gaskets, and get it mounted in the hull. Usually use a simple cradle with some velcro straps to hold it in place. Getting close to a ballast session in the tub!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on February 20, 2018, 12:05:20 AM
Hi Chris yup i could do it but,  as this was in the previous millennium it would be thermionic valves and stuff...i learnt all my electronics in the early sixties  !! now there are things called integrated circuits and transistors and stuff !!!stuff you cannot repair !! When i was on maneuverers some equipment failed and the gunnery sergeant said what was wrong, and i said one of the field effect transistors had blown ,but ,if i had a lathe i could turn one up !! next thing i knew the machinery wagon arrived !! :facepalm: :Doh: ::)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 20, 2018, 12:16:25 AM
Hi Chris yup i could do it but,  as this was in the previous millennium it would be thermionic valves and stuff...i learnt all my electronics in the early sixties  !! now there are things called integrated circuits and transistors and stuff !!!stuff you cannot repair !! When i was on maneuverers some equipment failed and the gunnery sergeant said what was wrong, and i said one of the field effect transistors had blown ,but ,if i had a lathe i could turn one up !! next thing i knew the machinery wagon arrived !! :facepalm: :Doh: ::)


 :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Firebird on February 20, 2018, 07:14:28 PM
Hi

Where Oh where do you find the time to do all this :headscratch: :thinking:

Let me in on your secret and I'll buy you a  :DrinkPint:

Cheers

Rich
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 20, 2018, 09:38:06 PM
Hi

Where Oh where do you find the time to do all this :headscratch: :thinking:

Let me in on your secret and I'll buy you a  :DrinkPint:

Cheers

Rich
Hi Rich,

Oooh, tough question, but worth a  :DrinkPint: !

One word: Retirement!
I took early retirement from Kodak about 5 years ago when they went through bankruptcy and shut down all the consumer businesses (there is still a little of the commercial business side of the company left, any consumer products you see now named Kodak are third party licensees of the name). So, still young enough to be in good health, there long enough to start drawing pension early, and it frees up 9 hours of the day for playing on things I like to do!
Much lower stress, more time for outdoors stuff, no !@#%!@#ing meetings, and lots of hobbies. Can you see my smile from there?
 ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 20, 2018, 09:47:32 PM
Hey, an actual update on the Marion project!!!!

Okay, all I did was bring in the mail and open an envelope, but I'll take that. The chain I ordered off eBay showed up today (well, one of the two versions, niether gave exact dimensions so I got some of each). It looks much better than the clock chain I had, much thicker wire was used in it. Here is a pic of the new chain on the left, old on the right:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/m3ysdgurr/IMG_2041.jpg)
I like the shape of the old better, but it is too lightweight, so I am leaning to the new one for now, will see how the other batch looks when it arrives. My thanks again to Dan Rowe for finding it for me! He also mentioned a way to get rid of the shiny finish, quick shot with a torch to dull it down and blacken it more like a raw metal chain. This chain is stainless steel, with some sort of shiny chrome-ish finish on it. Here it is after a shot of flame on the last few links:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dygqfbe8n/IMG_2043.jpg)
Makes it look much better for this model.

Dan, take a bag of cookies and a glass of Guiness out of petty cash!   :cheers:

This morning I got the servo tray for the sub cut out, am in the process of getting it bonded to the supports to attach it to the end cap. Would have been done by now, but a molar I have been having trouble with (it has a hairline crack in the base, under the metal crown) has flared up again  with an infection, so off to the dentist. The antibiotics should (I hope) knock this down so he can find out the root ( ! ) cause on the next visit. In the meantime, I think I can get the work on the sub finished in another couple days, and back to work on the Marion again! Got one more week before the pool run, so the timing is looking okay, assuming no setbacks (like spending time outside, it was over 70 today, not bad for mid February in upstate NY).
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dan Rowe on February 20, 2018, 09:54:42 PM
Chris that chain looks really good especially after a bit of heat, The smokebox on my Shay is SS muffler pipe. I have cycled it through the burn out oven a few times and it really looks like a real smokebox no paint needed.

Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 20, 2018, 09:58:40 PM
Chris that chain looks really good especially after a bit of heat, The smokebox on my Shay is SS muffler pipe. I have cycled it through the burn out oven a few times and it really looks like a real smokebox no paint needed.

Dan
How durable is the color it imparts, does it just rub off again, or is it into the surface itself? Looks much better than painting it would, and the chemical blackeners dont usually work well on a lot of the SS alloys.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dan Rowe on February 20, 2018, 10:36:12 PM
Chris, I took a normal eraser to the finish and there was no change.

(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/6/213-200218143156.jpeg)

Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 21, 2018, 09:05:45 PM
The turtle guts are being made up one by one, got the mechanical parts of the WTC almost done now. The u-joints that will go from the output shafts to the props are on, as is the tube to hold the radio antenna (that still needs to be epoxied to the end cap, and the other end sealed up).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/hjhnve1vr/IMG_2044.jpg)
The servo linkages to the thru-hulls are also done, and the receiver in place.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5hma18kxj/IMG_2045.jpg)
The remaining tasks: wire up the speed control unit to the battery and motor, make the gaskets for the thru-hulls and end caps, get the WTC mounted to the hull, make the final linkages from the WTC to the props and fins, and get it all ballasted/balanced.  Getting close to going back to work on the steam shovel, thanks for your patience!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on February 22, 2018, 01:34:37 AM
Hi Chris,   just a quick thought...should the props turn in different directions to stop the turtle turning turtle ? or do the tubes prevent this happening ? or is the weight distribution avoiding that ? just pondering...torque reaction and all that (that i have no knowledge of).......
willy
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 22, 2018, 01:57:49 AM
Hi Chris,   just a quick thought...should the props turn in different directions to stop the turtle turning turtle ? or do the tubes prevent this happening ? or is the weight distribution avoiding that ? just pondering...torque reaction and all that (that i have no knowledge of).......
willy
Hi Willy,
Normally I would set them up for counter rotation, especially on a fixed prop or a high speed surface penetrating prop, but for this model its not important enough to justify the extra mechanisms. The steerable nozzles help prevent prop walk and torque steer, plus this is a low speed model. That said, we'll see how it behaves! I'd have it ready to go by now, if I wasn't fighting this #@$-*\+ tooth! Keep having to take breaks, more aspirin... Actually looking forward to seeing the dentist again Friday.
Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 22, 2018, 02:04:55 AM
Actually looking forward to seeing the dentist again Friday.

Ah the consequences of mint chocolate chip cookies.

That, or payback from some higher being.  ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 22, 2018, 02:27:01 AM
Actually looking forward to seeing the dentist again Friday.

Ah the consequences of mint chocolate chip cookies.

That, or payback from some higher being.  ;D
Probably a plot by the elves to get more of the cookies for themselves!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Admiral_dk on February 22, 2018, 12:11:37 PM
Chris I know that you have been asked about RC under water before, but I got another one. On full size subs they use VLF (Very Low Frequency) radios in order to be able to have connection down to some depth - do you use as low frequency as possible RC equipment or is even the new 2.4GHz. RC gear useable down to the few feet you go ?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 22, 2018, 06:09:31 PM
Chris I know that you have been asked about RC under water before, but I got another one. On full size subs they use VLF (Very Low Frequency) radios in order to be able to have connection down to some depth - do you use as low frequency as possible RC equipment or is even the new 2.4GHz. RC gear useable down to the few feet you go ?
We also have to use the older lower frequency radios (hard to find now, out of production in most brands), like 75 mhz and below. The 2.4ghz radios now common just skip off the water, useless without an above-water antenna. No where near as low as the ultra low stuff the sub fleets use!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 22, 2018, 06:12:47 PM
Probably no work on either model today, last night the tooth attacked me  :cussing: , made a emergency run into the dentist this morning to get the old crown off to let it drain and such. No sleep last night, so off to some naps!

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 24, 2018, 02:06:20 AM
Probably no work on either model today, last night the tooth attacked me  :cussing: , made a emergency run into the dentist this morning to get the old crown off to let it drain and such. No sleep last night, so off to some naps!

Things have apparently turned the corner on the tooth, swelling in the jaw is down and I am not counting off the minutes to the next painkiller, so hopefully can get back to the models soon. Think I only need another day or so on the sub, some of it waiting for some different belt parts to solve a slipping issue, so may actually get some work done on the chain pulley for the Marion this weekend!

On an even more positive note, the first check for the Lombard article series came today  :cartwheel: , so I finally splurged (been wanting it for a while) and spent it on the larger XY base for my Sherline, been running into the Y distance limit WAY too much these last couple of models. Should have that this coming week, will post pics when it shows up.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on February 24, 2018, 02:36:03 AM
Hi Chris, Have you looked into the 344 MHz radios? I have been following ScratchbuildwithJohn on Utube, He is in Australia and using 433 MHz with his sub.
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 24, 2018, 02:45:47 AM
Hi Chris, Have you looked into the 344 MHz radios? I have been following ScratchbuildwithJohn on Utube, He is in Australia and using 433 MHz with his sub.
Gerald.
Have not heard of the 344 band, brings up two questions:
-are they still being made?
-are they legal in the US? Things do vary by country.
Okay, 3 questions, who makes them?
Some in our club with ham license use 53 mhz, think it is.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ClaytonFirth on February 24, 2018, 11:20:08 PM
Hi Chris, Have you looked into the 344 MHz radios? I have been following ScratchbuildwithJohn on Utube, He is in Australia and using 433 MHz with his sub.
Gerald.
Have not heard of the 344 band, brings up two questions:
-are they still being made?
-are they legal in the US? Things do vary by country.
Okay, 3 questions, who makes them?
Some in our club with ham license use 53 mhz, think it is.
Chris,
There are plenty of 433Mhz rc radio's still being made. I did a quick check on Amazon and they were available in the US, they are widely available in Australia.

I believe that you need to be a licensed Ham operator to use devices in the 433 spectrum in the US, as the DoD does use those frequencies, probably best to check with local authorities though.

I've done a lot of commercial work with 433Mhz devices in a variety of conditions. The best i had was working on a quarry in NZ, we had a bunch of transmitters mounted on loaders and sending telemetry from load cells in the buckets back to a controller. The loaders could operate up to 5-6 km without line of site before we got issues.

CF
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 24, 2018, 11:46:56 PM
Hi Chris, Have you looked into the 344 MHz radios? I have been following ScratchbuildwithJohn on Utube, He is in Australia and using 433 MHz with his sub.
Gerald.
Have not heard of the 344 band, brings up two questions:
-are they still being made?
-are they legal in the US? Things do vary by country.
Okay, 3 questions, who makes them?
Some in our club with ham license use 53 mhz, think it is.
Chris,
There are plenty of 433Mhz rc radio's still being made. I did a quick check on Amazon and they were available in the US, they are widely available in Australia.

I believe that you need to be a licensed Ham operator to use devices in the 433 spectrum in the US, as the DoD does use those frequencies, probably best to check with local authorities though.

I've done a lot of commercial work with 433Mhz devices in a variety of conditions. The best i had was working on a quarry in NZ, we had a bunch of transmitters mounted on loaders and sending telemetry from load cells in the buckets back to a controller. The loaders could operate up to 5-6 km without line of site before we got issues.

CF
Thanks for the info! I guess its since the 433 requires the ham license that I dont see them much. Though, just took a look around on the web, and I am not seeing much of anything in 433 for the RC model market, with joystick type transmitters, receiver/servos, that sort of kit. It all seems to be other type devices, for things like you describe rather than the models.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: bouch on February 25, 2018, 02:01:19 PM

On a side note, Live Steam has put up the cover for the next issue on their website, should look familiar to those who followed my last build!
(https://s5.postimg.org/6nw7cdvsn/Magazine_Cover.jpg)
I should be getting my copies soon, so back to staring at the mailbox between making submarine parts...


I got my copy earlier this week.  Looking forward to reading the articles.

But, last night I was rummaging through old photo albums, and instead of finding the photos I was looking for, I found the photos of when Clark's Trading Post brought their Lombard to the Model T Snowmobile meet in Thornton, NH.  It was on Feb 24, 2001.  They had a large, open field to run on, and it was a pretty cold day, so lots of good steam.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4745/40476486481_a96bb04a0d_z.jpg)

<Edit> - ok, why is my image not showing?  - Here's the URL... </Edit>
https://www.flickr.com/photos/50387839@N03/40476486481/in/dateposted-public/

I have more, if you're interested...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 25, 2018, 03:47:40 PM

On a side note, Live Steam has put up the cover for the next issue on their website, should look familiar to those who followed my last build!
(https://s5.postimg.org/6nw7cdvsn/Magazine_Cover.jpg)
I should be getting my copies soon, so back to staring at the mailbox between making submarine parts...


I got my copy earlier this week.  Looking forward to reading the articles.

But, last night I was rummaging through old photo albums, and instead of finding the photos I was looking for, I found the photos of when Clark's Trading Post brought their Lombard to the Model T Snowmobile meet in Thornton, NH.  It was on Feb 24, 2001.  They had a large, open field to run on, and it was a pretty cold day, so lots of good steam.

(https://www.flickr.com/photos/50387839@N03/40476486481/in/dateposted-public/)

<Edit> - ok, why is my image not showing?  - Here's the URL... </Edit>
https://www.flickr.com/photos/50387839@N03/40476486481/in/dateposted-public/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/50387839@N03/40476486481/in/dateposted-public/)

I have more, if you're interested...
Thanks Bouch, that looks like a fun day!


I have looked at Clark Tradings websites, they don't say anything about the Lombard, which puzzles me. Its still there, i gather, but they don't seem to be running it anymore.


For pictures, use the little rectangular button next to the youtube button to pop up the dialog to put the url in, then it will show in the post.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Mikem on February 25, 2018, 05:36:50 PM
That was an awesome weekend of lombarding but cold , I think it took me the rest of the year to warm up . The coolest thing was watching how to replace the belts in a model t tranny on Friday nite !
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 25, 2018, 11:45:47 PM
Well, some good news finally: the tooth is finally on the mend, swelling in jaw is almost gone, lots of sleep the last day/night, and I felt up to a bunch of shop time today!  Got just a bit more to do on the submarine, then will be back at the Marion again this week. Thanks all for your patience!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: bouch on February 26, 2018, 12:30:53 AM
Thanks Bouch, that looks like a fun day!

I have looked at Clark Tradings websites, they don't say anything about the Lombard, which puzzles me. Its still there, i gather, but they don't seem to be running it anymore.

It's definitely still there, last I saw it (about 1.5 years ago) it was under a shelter across the tracks from the brick enginehouse, up by the covered bridge.  I'm assuming it hasn't moved lately.

Whether or not it runs any given year depends on a bunch of factors, including (but not limited to)
- What they're working on over the winter.  Between then and now, they rebuilt EB&L #5, They acquired a 44 tonner, and the usual maintenance on the rolling stock. Recently, They've had to do a lot of work on the climax, needed new gears between the engine and the driveshafts.  They've also been reassembling the Heisler (although I understand it won't run again, just on display.)
- How much snow there is.  As you can imagine, they need a good base of snow to run it.  Some winters have had relatively little snow, and they don't run it in the summer (too busy with the railroad)
- Health.  Dave Clark has had his share of health issues over the past few years, which hasn't helped.

They haven't even had their "Steam Weekend" for the past few years for combinations of these reasons, and that's during their operating season.  I have been told they're having one this year, but I don't know the dates yet.  (Usually in September, after the busiest part of the tourist season)  When I find out, I'll let you know so you can make the trip and get your model a photo with another full sized one.  And I'm sure Dave, Leon, and others would love to see it.

That was an awesome weekend of lombarding but cold , I think it took me the rest of the year to warm up . The coolest thing was watching how to replace the belts in a model t tranny on Friday nite !

Cold is an understatement.  I walked the length of the field to get photos from "the other end", and with the wind blowing across the field, I couldn't feel just about anything by the time I got back.  (the field was probably 1/2 mile long).  I was invited to drive it, and it was quite an interesting sensation when steering; my back was warm, but my front was half frozen.  Pulling the throttle was a lot warmer!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 26, 2018, 02:15:32 AM
Sounds like they have a lot going on! If you hear of a date for the steam weekend this year, I'd love to know, would be great to see it, and would definitely take the model.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on February 26, 2018, 06:14:44 PM
Hi Chris, Have you looked into the 344 MHz radios? I have been following ScratchbuildwithJohn on Utube, He is in Australia and using 433 MHz with his sub.
Gerald.
Have not heard of the 344 band, brings up two questions:
-are they still being made?
-are they legal in the US? Things do vary by country.
Okay, 3 questions, who makes them?
Some in our club with ham license use 53 mhz, think it is.
Hi Chris,
the information I know I got from U-tube watching ScratchbuildwithJohn. He is using a add-on unit from one of the Chinese sellers (maybe Hobby King) which fits on the back of his radio transmitter replacing the RF from the radio with a 433MHz band transceiver. One of the links he gave listed the legal frequencies and for Canada and USA they listed 344MHz. I think that most of the equipment he is using is from Hobby King or Bangood. As to whether it requires an Ham license I don't know.
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 26, 2018, 06:23:42 PM
Hi Chris, Have you looked into the 344 MHz radios? I have been following ScratchbuildwithJohn on Utube, He is in Australia and using 433 MHz with his sub.
Gerald.
Have not heard of the 344 band, brings up two questions:
-are they still being made?
-are they legal in the US? Things do vary by country.
Okay, 3 questions, who makes them?
Some in our club with ham license use 53 mhz, think it is.
Hi Chris,
the information I know I got from U-tube watching ScratchbuildwithJohn. He is using a add-on unit from one of the Chinese sellers (maybe Hobby King) which fits on the back of his radio transmitter replacing the RF from the radio with a 433MHz band transceiver. One of the links he gave listed the legal frequencies and for Canada and USA they listed 344MHz. I think that most of the equipment he is using is from Hobby King or Bangood. As to whether it requires an Ham license I don't know.
Gerald.
Thanks for the info - we are having a run at the Y pool this weekend, I'll ask our resident radio gurus (Don & Patti) about it!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 26, 2018, 08:20:48 PM
Okay, back in the shop on the Marion build again!   :whoohoo:

The current set of parts is for the large pulley that holds the top of the yoke on the dipper bucket, and takes the main hoist chain. I had previously made the sheave, and am continuing on with the shell.

Here is the original:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wlfltvz47/DSC_6171.jpg)
Fabrication started with rough cutting out the two side plates from some thin steel flat stock and taking them close to shape on the belt sander. Then, clamping them together to drill the hole for the main axle of the sheave, then a pair of close-fit 5-40 clearance holes .550" out from that hole. The second two holes will act as hold-downs on the milling plate, and will be hidden in the final assembly by the side straps.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/sq1a5nuhz/IMG_2049.jpg)
Then, a piece of aluminum bar, which had been used to make cylinder caps in a previous model, was dug out of the spare parts bin and clamped up in the 4-jaw chuck. Center drilled a hole in it on the lathe to give a centering aid, and moved the chuck and part over to the rotary table. You can see a set of other holes in the plates, they were from the other model.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/otny9nenb/IMG_2048.jpg)
Now, I was going to just use the tooling plate on the rotary table, but these plates need a number of arcs with different center points as well as angled straight lines, so a dedicated fixture was better. So, using the center hole as a guide, the rotary table was centered under the mill head, and the handwheels zeroed to that. With the table turned so that the chuck jaws were at a 45 degree angle to the axis of the mill table, to keep the drilled holes to come away from the jaws, I drilled holes .550" out from the center on the X axis to match the ones in the side plates. Then, moved the mill table left .095 and in .1824, and used that as a starting point for a second set of holes, used for the arc down one side of the plates. Last, moved the table back out double the .1824 and drilled a third set to be used to mill the second arc. These holes are the ones with the blue lines connecting them. With the plates bolted to the center set, the plates are centered on the rotary table. With them bolted to either side set, they are positioned to mill the side arcs.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/986mpq59z/IMG_2053.jpg)
So, bolted the plates on one side, with the bottom of the plates away from the original 'left' offset, made a note of the angle setting on the rotary table for later reference, and milled the arc on one side till it went tangent to the edge of the plate (the bar stock was 2" wide, which matched the width of the part).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xbxee00lj/IMG_2054.jpg)
Then, moved the plates over to the other side holes, and milled the second arc:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/go5wbidjr/IMG_2055.jpg)
With the two arcs done, the plates were moved back to the center holes, the rotary table turned so the parts were perpendicular to the mill table, and the straight bottom edge was milled in to dimension.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bcqzqtmc7/IMG_2056.jpg)
That just left the two upper sides to mill, at a 45 degree angle:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/du2qy2yiv/IMG_2057.jpg)
Here are the parts so far:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/z3qd8xu93/IMG_2060.jpg)
The brass block on the right will become the spacer between the plates, the outside will be milled like the side plates were, then I'll cut out the center part to leave a narrow three sided strip that will get riveted to the side plates later on. I thought about bending this from bar stock, but since it needs two specific arcs, a straight center, and sharp corners between,  and has to be accurate and stright enough to sit flat between the plates, I am more confident in milling it out rather than bending it.

Good to be back on the Marion project again, the sub is to the point where I am doing background glueing of parts and small assemblies, its machine shop time should be done.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on February 27, 2018, 02:20:44 PM
Great work on that. Do you have digital readouts on your mill. I get watching and enjoying the write-up and photos and then there is a shot that reminds me that this is a small Sherline you are doing it on, fantastic.
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: J.L. on February 27, 2018, 02:23:29 PM
Hi Chris,
Beautiful sequential photography here!  :ThumbsUp:
John
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 27, 2018, 03:42:59 PM
Great work on that. Do you have digital readouts on your mill. I get watching and enjoying the write-up and photos and then there is a shot that reminds me that this is a small Sherline you are doing it on, fantastic.
Gerald.
Nope, no DRO or CNC, do have zero resettable handwheels.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 27, 2018, 03:43:28 PM
Hi Chris,
Beautiful sequential photography here!  :ThumbsUp:
John
Thanks John!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 27, 2018, 07:11:07 PM
More on the chain pulley parts, used the same setup as for the outer plates to mill the profiles into the brass for the bottom spacer:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/jylj35vbr/IMG_2062.jpg)
and then to drill the rivet holes around the edge, with the plates stacked in place with the spacer:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dkwfzxt0n/IMG_2064.jpg)
Then milled in the inner slot along the bottom edge:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xs9vs83cn/IMG_2066.jpg)
The hold down bolt prevented me from milling all the way across the bottom, so the last bit was sawn out then cleaned up in the mill vise:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/hu1623guf/IMG_2067.jpg)
and the family of parts for the pulley so far:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dkwfzxlav/IMG_2068.jpg)
Next up is to make the side straps. Once those are riveted in place, I can rivet the assembly together. To get the sheave to turn more easily, I am thinking of making a small slip-on set of bearings for the axles, just a thin tube of bronze should do it.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 27, 2018, 10:34:19 PM
Got a start on the side straps this afternoon. They take the weight of the bucket from the chain, and also hole the sheave axle centered in the side plates. The tricky bit with them was to make the double sets of bends in the center, where they bump out for the sheave axle. So, not having a bending brake, I designed up a little bending jig to do that job.
Started by laying out the bend points on the steel flat stock, and bending the two outer 45 degree bends, first one side:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xdce4g8pz/IMG_2072.jpg)
then the other:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/c3ortm053/IMG_2073.jpg)
Here comes the bending jig, which will keep the first bend from getting bent back out again - two bits of square stock, with some recesses to hold on the tops of the jaws and a 45-degree angled bit to hold the stock. Here is the bar clamped in place:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bqxdnfxav/IMG_2074.jpg)
Then took a pair of long-nose pliers and worked the center back up vertical:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/exrx72pgn/IMG_2075.jpg)
Thats one side done, turned the part over, and bent it too:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/exrx72a13/IMG_2076.jpg)
Presto, one side strap, ready to start drilling its holes for the axle and rivets. Ends get rounded as well.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/z55czdunr/IMG_2077.jpg)
It only took two tries to get the dimensions of the fixture correct, the first time the hook end was a little too long, making the center section too high - I had assumed it would bend back to the end of the hook, needed to allow a little radius there.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: b.lindsey on February 28, 2018, 12:45:38 AM
Very nice Chris. Good to see you back on it.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: bouch on February 28, 2018, 02:42:34 PM
Sounds like they have a lot going on! If you hear of a date for the steam weekend this year, I'd love to know, would be great to see it, and would definitely take the model.

This just came down the wire...

"Toot Toot It's #WayBackWednesday! How did 30 years go by so fast!? Mark your calendar now for our 60th Anniversary celebration September 15 & 16 2018"   (the "30 years" is in reference to a photo they had of a ribbon from their 1st "Steam weekend", which was their 30th anniversary celebration.)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 28, 2018, 02:50:39 PM
Sounds like they have a lot going on! If you hear of a date for the steam weekend this year, I'd love to know, would be great to see it, and would definitely take the model.

This just came down the wire...

"Toot Toot It's #WayBackWednesday! How did 30 years go by so fast!? Mark your calendar now for our 60th Anniversary celebration September 15 & 16 2018"   (the "30 years" is in reference to a photo they had of a ribbon from their 1st "Steam weekend", which was their 30th anniversary celebration.)

Excellent!!! Thanks!  Just went and looked at their website, and found this on the events page:
--------------------------------------
WHITE MOUNTAIN CENTRAL RAILROAD DAYS
Wolfman

Celebrate 60 years of riding the rails
September 15 & 16, 2018

Revel in the rich history of railroading with special excursions on the White Mountain Central Railroad. Rail fans can ride steam locomotives and see rare and unique equipment on display.

The Baldwin, Climax and Porter steam locomotives and a GE 65-ton diesel engine will be in operation on this spectacular weekend celebrating 60 years of riding the rails on the White Mountain Central Railroad. To join in the fun of Railroad Days, guests must purchase a general admission ticket at the railroad station. Tickets are $22 for ages 4-64 and $20 for ages 65 and up. Each ticket includes all the Railroad Days events, the bear show, train rides, plus all the rides and attractions Clark's has to offer.
More details for Railroad Days will be coming soon.
--------------------------------
Sent them an email asking about the Lombard as well, thanks again for the tip!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 28, 2018, 03:05:31 PM
This morning I got the side straps drilled and the ends trimmed off, here are the parts so far:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bl223bpev/IMG_2078.jpg)
Then made up the cross pins:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fu6s5i0dz/IMG_2079.jpg)
After lunch I'll get some rivet pins in place to align things temporarily, clamp it together, and drill for the rivets to hold the straps to the side plates...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 28, 2018, 06:38:02 PM
After lunch I started drilling holes for the rivets to hold the side straps on. With the assembly lined up and held with some clamps, holding it for drilling looked difficult. Then remembered I had a 1" mill vise that followed me home from Cabin Fever this winter, clamped the parts in that, and clamped that vertically in the mill vise - worked great. With that setup, I drilled through the top and bottom plates/straps in one go, for the outer holes.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3wev2gcwn/IMG_2081.jpg)
The inner holes were blocked by the sheave, so I riveted on the straps with the first four holes, then went back and drilled the rest with the plates seperately.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6dqm9q4iv/IMG_2083.jpg)
After test fitting the sheave would spin freely (took a few swipes with a file to square it up), the whole assembly was riveted together, using some small brass rod through the plates.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wm1qz441z/IMG_2084.jpg)
And here it is with the chain fed through, as it will hang in the model. Next up is to cross drill the axles for the cotter pins, and then make the U-shaped clevises that attach it to the yoke and to the end of the chain - there are two sheaves on the end of the boom, one in the pulley, so the chain ends at the top of the pulley.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fliuqfjav/IMG_2086.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: J.L. on February 28, 2018, 07:21:14 PM
Hi Chris,
A wonderful last shot to conclude the process.
Absolutely brilliant work.
John
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 28, 2018, 07:49:56 PM
Hi Chris,
A wonderful last shot to conclude the process.
Absolutely brilliant work.
John
Thanks John - now about that quarry diorama model....!  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 01, 2018, 12:38:36 AM
Wow. Seems like yesterday you were turtlle-ing.
Wonderful progress and pictures.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on March 01, 2018, 12:44:14 AM
So Chris, firstly.. this is a 'lifting' pulley as it lifts the bucket arm, as distinct from the 'luffing' pulley [orientated in the horizontal plane] for raising or lowering [luffing] the jib beam?, is my assumption correct?.... it does make a difference in understanding :facepalm:

Is this pulley [wheel] free to rotate in the outer sheave plates, or does the chain simply slide through the channel recess as machined in the centre of the pulley?

Where I am coming from, is with the actual pulley sheave block would have been subject to wear, dust and a high level of friction between the chain links & the wheel and hence create a series of flats on the major diameter of the wheel?....if this happened, the friction between the chain & the wheel would tend to rotate the wheel

Also somewhere down the track, you will need to manufacture the luffing pulley.....will it be of a similar design with the luffing jib chain sliding around the when channel recess?

Or a final question :facepalm2:, is the luffing of the jib by wire or chain?

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 01, 2018, 02:05:44 AM
So Chris, firstly.. this is a 'lifting' pulley as it lifts the bucket arm, as distinct from the 'luffing' pulley [orientated in the horizontal plane] for raising or lowering [luffing] the jib beam?, is my assumption correct?.... it does make a difference in understanding :facepalm:

Is this pulley [wheel] free to rotate in the outer sheave plates, or does the chain simply slide through the channel recess as machined in the centre of the pulley?

Where I am coming from, is with the actual pulley sheave block would have been subject to wear, dust and a high level of friction between the chain links & the wheel and hence create a series of flats on the major diameter of the wheel?....if this happened, the friction between the chain & the wheel would tend to rotate the wheel

Also somewhere down the track, you will need to manufacture the luffing pulley.....will it be of a similar design with the luffing jib chain sliding around the when channel recess?

Or a final question :facepalm2: , is the luffing of the jib by wire or chain?

Derek
I'll try and elevate the discussion (lifting it) rather than drag it sideways (luffing)....


Nah!


This is definitely a pulley used for lifting, and lowering actually, with the chain connected to the main hoist engine.


When I hear of luffing, I think of letting the sail get too close to the wind and having it flap.... The entire boom assembly, main and dipper, rotates horizontally on a turntable with the slewing chain wrapped around the rim. That does have guide wheels at the back for the slew chain, but they are on fixed stands and look more like car rims, no shell around them.


The sheave in this pulley rotates on its axle inside the shell, turning with the chain. Its possible that it could develop flats from the chain over time, but I don't see that on the shovel here.


The only other sheaves on this shovel are the guide wheels along the main boom, and two at the tip of it that act with this pulley. When the turnable rotates, the vertical section of the chain that goes through the axis of rotation will twist to keep the chain in line on the guide wheels.


On the dredge version of the shovels, they did use cables in place of chains sometimes, but these large shovels from Marion were all chain at that time.


In their manuals, they give instructions for oiling the chain to keep wear to a minimum, and also recommend swapping ends periodically, and removing the links at the bucket end if they wear. Marion made all their own chain, had high specs for the alloys.


I think I covered all your questions, let me know if not! Very often the questions make me take a closer look at something that I have ignored myself!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 01, 2018, 02:08:57 AM
Wow. Seems like yesterday you were turtlle-ing.
Wonderful progress and pictures.
Waiting for some final parts, hope to be turtling at the pool Sunday evening.


Starting Monday there may be another break in the build as I go in for some heavy dental work.  :-[
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on March 01, 2018, 03:46:54 AM
I hope your dental work comes out ok. Tuesday I go in for a heart procedure. they say the quickest way to a mans heart is through his stomach, not so they go through your groin most of the time.
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on March 01, 2018, 05:36:15 AM
Hi Chris,
 Well 4 pages & I was only away 7 days! Enjoyed the catchup, the turtle is coming on great, nice to see how the the gear is all housed.
The pulley came out cool! After reading Derek’s query’s I went looking to see if I could find a picture of a “chain pulley” ....failed miserably! I was wondering IF the full size one had not a pulley as you have made, which I’m sure will work, but one that is set up so that it has the opposite configuration, hope that makes sense, which grips the alternate links. You find them in chain block hand winches, I’ve also see them used on valves were then valve is hi up.

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on March 01, 2018, 07:48:19 AM
This [lower right] is about the best representation image I could find of a ....cast steel simple linked chain wheel......this obviously will transmit rotary motion, whereas the chain pulley wheel Chris has manufactured does not necessarily rotate nor transmit rotary motion...... [I must have been just getting  :hammerbash: ]
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ShopShoe on March 01, 2018, 12:45:14 PM
There is a good chain pulley in this video. Brian Block is building a large shop in an old barn and incorporates a bridge crane. The crane had been manually chain-driven, then electrified, then Brian decided to convert it back to chain operation. This video is part of the process.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvhDZleeR-Y

If you have also followed Brian (bcbloc02 on YouTube), you will know that he did not replace the lifting cable and a heavy load fell while lifting (Worst Shop Day). Several of the other YouTube machining community have mentioned this. All in all, his shop build and posts show a one-man-band building a shop for heavy machining using large machines.

--ShopShoe
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 01, 2018, 12:46:43 PM
Kerrin/Derek, you guys are overthinking this one - this pulley, and the other sheaves in the boom, are not transmitting power by going from rotary to linear like a gear does. They are just guides like a pulley for ropes is, just keeping the chains in a track.
The pulley that I'm making now has sheaves that look exactly like these do, which are at the top of the main boom  - I don't have a picture that shows it this clearly at the pulley, since the pulley has the shell around it, but the sheave looks identical to these:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/699twvy5z/DSC_6173.jpg)
They are just simple wheels with a groove for every other link to sit vertically. No indents to generate power from or push the chain.
For the turntable, these are the guides - again, simple smooth shells, look like car tire rims:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7bk0ffop3/IMG_1454.jpg)
One is horizontal, the other has a slight angle, to guide the chain on one side to the bottom of the winch drum, the other to the top of the drum. The chain ends go around the rim of the turntable here:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dp93ip1av/DSC_6555.jpg)
and the ends are bolted into the bottom of the main boom. There is no indent or sprocket in the turntable, just the chains own weight to hold them down against the vertical lip. The middle of the chain wraps several times around the winch drum.
On the hoist chain, the end of the chain goes around its winch drum and secures to a half link welded to the side of the drum on the inside.

Hope that helps!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 01, 2018, 12:51:58 PM
There is a good chain pulley in this video. Brian Block is building a large shop in an old barn and incorporates a bridge crane. The crane had been manually chain-driven, then electrified, then Brian decided to convert it back to chain operation. This video is part of the process.

[youtube1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvhDZleeR-Y[/youtube1]

If you have also followed Brian (bcbloc02 on YouTube), you will know that he did not replace the lifting cable and a heavy load fell while lifting (Worst Shop Day). Several of the other YouTube machining community have mentioned this. All in all, his shop build and posts show a one-man-band building a shop for heavy machining using large machines.

--ShopShoe
Thats a neat video, great mechanism!

Again, that is not the type of pulley on the Marion (we were posting at the same time) - the wheels here are just smooth guides, not used to pull on the chain. All the power application to the chain is done by the winch drums, with multiple wraps of chain side by side on the slew drum, tensioned by bolts at the ends where they attach to the boom. For the hoist, the and of the chain shackles to the inside edge of the drum, then there were multiple wraps and layers of chain around the drum - no indents for links in the drums, the drums are several feet across with large sides to keep the chain contained.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on March 01, 2018, 01:04:36 PM
Great progress with the sheave block. Another masterclass in fabrication  :cheers:

As you say, the pulleys are just guides to change the direction of the pull so would always have been smooth. However, in the spirit of 'nit-picking', I wonder if the original block would have been open at the bottom to allow dirt, gravel, rocks, etc. to fall through rather than build up and jam the pulley? It appears to be so in the photo of full size one.

Clearly not likely to be a big problem on the model . . . so I'll get my coat  :paranoia:

Mike.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 01, 2018, 01:06:46 PM
More details - here is one of the guide pulleys on the main boom - this one takes the chain coming down the boom and sends it vertically through the middle of the turntable:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rwys7a147/DSC_6245.jpg)
There is another underneath the turntable to send it back horizontally to the winch drum inside the cab:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ip6jqkmc7/DSC_6517.jpg)
Note that there is no chain on this on at the moment - when they abandoned the shovel, they welded the links to the guide wheels above and cut off the remaining chain back to the drum - not sure what they used it for.
Here is the main hoist winch drum, you can see the link welded to the side where it anchored the end. There are grooves worn in the drum from 50 years of use, it started smooth.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gkm6ph59z/IMG_1246.jpg)
And here is the slew drum, the chain here is the middle of the one wrapped around the turntable. No attachment link, since to go around the turntable this chain would have to go more than several times around the drum.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ha4z1udjb/IMG_1351.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 01, 2018, 01:09:13 PM
Great progress with the sheave block. Another masterclass in fabrication  :cheers:

As you say, the pulleys are just guides to change the direction of the pull so would always have been smooth. However, in the spirit of 'nit-picking', I wonder if the original block would have been open at the bottom to allow dirt, gravel, rocks, etc. to fall through rather than build up and jam the pulley? It appears to be so in the photo of full size one.

Clearly not likely to be a big problem on the model . . . so I'll get my coat  :paranoia:

Mike.
I've wondered the same thing about the pulley - the original is damaged on the one side, part of the shell rim is gone, and the sides are bashed in, so its hard to tell. I think the same thing, that there was a gap in the bottom. Next time I get out there I'll take a closer look and see if I can find evidence of where the edge was.

No worries on pointing out anything I have missed - please do!! There are so many details on this machine that it takes many many looks to get them all, and I am not there yet!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on March 01, 2018, 01:23:26 PM
That photo of the turntable a few posts back really shows the scale of this thing, unless that's one of the 'shop elves posing there in his safety boots  :LittleDevil:

Hope the dental work goes as well as all your other projects.

Mike.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 01, 2018, 01:53:25 PM
That photo of the turntable a few posts back really shows the scale of this thing, unless that's one of the 'shop elves posing there in his safety boots  :LittleDevil:

Hope the dental work goes as well as all your other projects.

Mike.
Yeah - that was no elf, that was one of the Park Service guys up from SteamTown in PA to do the condition report on the shovel. That turntable is 8 feet diameter.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 01, 2018, 01:56:09 PM
Sounds like they have a lot going on! If you hear of a date for the steam weekend this year, I'd love to know, would be great to see it, and would definitely take the model.

This just came down the wire...

"Toot Toot It's #WayBackWednesday! How did 30 years go by so fast!? Mark your calendar now for our 60th Anniversary celebration September 15 & 16 2018"   (the "30 years" is in reference to a photo they had of a ribbon from their 1st "Steam weekend", which was their 30th anniversary celebration.)

Excellent!!! Thanks!  Just went and looked at their website, and found this on the events page:
--------------------------------------
WHITE MOUNTAIN CENTRAL RAILROAD DAYS
Wolfman

Celebrate 60 years of riding the rails
September 15 & 16, 2018

Revel in the rich history of railroading with special excursions on the White Mountain Central Railroad. Rail fans can ride steam locomotives and see rare and unique equipment on display.

The Baldwin, Climax and Porter steam locomotives and a GE 65-ton diesel engine will be in operation on this spectacular weekend celebrating 60 years of riding the rails on the White Mountain Central Railroad. To join in the fun of Railroad Days, guests must purchase a general admission ticket at the railroad station. Tickets are $22 for ages 4-64 and $20 for ages 65 and up. Each ticket includes all the Railroad Days events, the bear show, train rides, plus all the rides and attractions Clark's has to offer.
More details for Railroad Days will be coming soon.
--------------------------------
Sent them an email asking about the Lombard as well, thanks again for the tip!
I just got a reply from Clarks Trading Post, they said the Lombard will not be operating at RailRoad days this fall   :( , but I can bring the model up for photos with it and they do have someone there who can supply lots of information on it. Sounds like a fun road trip to see all the other locos running.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 01, 2018, 03:45:01 PM
Got the U-shaped straps bent out of flat stock (bent around a round bar, anealed couple of times along the way) and drilled for the cross pins. Cotters are installed in the center 3 pins, the outer ones will wait till they go on the yoke and the chain is attached. Think its ready for a splash of paint!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qgrv2pnjb/IMG_2089.jpg)

I think the next logical part is the yoke block that the gear is held by, to run the dipper in and out. Here is a picture from one of their catalogs - the detail shape of this block changed over the years, model to model, but the basic shape was the same. The plate on the top rides on top of the dipper booms, the middle section slid between the booms, and the bearings at the bottom held the shaft with the small gear for the rack on the dipper boom. The large wheels you see on the side of the booms from the crowd engine attach to the outer ends of that same shaft.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/d5397b7cn/Yoke_Block.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 01, 2018, 05:54:58 PM
Splash of paint and a little time baking, looks much better!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/lwaa1odtz/IMG_2090.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on March 01, 2018, 09:27:27 PM
Hi Chris,
Ok I’ll go with the expert on the pulley! I just thunked that with the chain only fitted to the grove that it may/could/would wear the pulley, especially if the pulley didn’t rotate for some reason, I realized that IF the pulley had been set up so the links could turn it but not transmitting any power, it would just “freewheel”
Now that last picture is cool!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on March 01, 2018, 09:33:08 PM
Chris......I did go back some 20 pages prior to asking about these chain pulleys , however these later photographs really clarify  :ThumbsUp: & bely my questions :facepalm:

Certainly a substantial and robust design.......[for a highly loaded application in an aggressive environment  :killcomputer:]

Derek

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 01, 2018, 09:36:08 PM
Hi Chris,
Ok I’ll go with the expert on the pulley! I just thunked that with the chain only fitted to the grove that it may/could/would wear the pulley, especially if the pulley didn’t rotate for some reason, I realized that IF the pulley had been set up so the links could turn it but not transmitting any power, it would just “freewheel”
Now that last picture is cool!

Cheers Kerrin
Given the huge weights these things lifted, and the fact that the chain is not that smooth, I would be surprised if the chain didn't grip onto the sheave surface and help it spin.

One of the places on the real machine that was interesting to see wear was on the hoist clutch control lever, which is right next to the guide wheel for the slew chain - the wheel edge has worn the lever at least a third of the way through.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/f78bzj7mv/IMG_1331.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 01, 2018, 09:41:31 PM
Chris......I did go back some 20 pages prior to asking about these chain pulleys , however these later photographs really clarify  :ThumbsUp: & bely my questions :facepalm:

Certainly a substantial and robust design.......[for a highly loaded application in an aggressive environment  :killcomputer: ]

Derek
Itws amazing that the machine ran for so many decades of such rough service - there is definitely signs of repairs and field-made parts here and there!
Check out the wear marks on the front corner bolster of the main frame - all those diagonal marks deep into the steel are from the bucket scraping on it when they got in too close when digging to the side of the machine.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6q8to5kt3/IMG_1177.jpg)
It looks like a rubber bumper, but that is an inch thick piece of plate steel.
The left side track support has a new end on it, and some repair plates welded over the joint, it had a pretty rough life.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 02, 2018, 12:29:59 AM
It's really fascinating to see the 'real' pictures and the 'fake' pictures  ;D
Awesome project.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 02, 2018, 05:14:59 PM
It's really fascinating to see the 'real' pictures and the 'fake' pictures  ;D
Awesome project.
Is it Model or is it Memorex?  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 02, 2018, 05:24:16 PM
Started in on the yoke block, milled a chunk of brass to the overall dimensions, then notched in the sides to start forming the half-round protrusions on the ends.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5chnc82hj/IMG_2093.jpg)
Then drilled for the through-bolts
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gc2unvax3/IMG_2094.jpg)
and to do the half-rounds, used the old rod-through-the-holes-and-make-a-series-of-flat-cut trick. About 6 cuts per side did the job, end result is a pretty smooth arc. Two critical things on this operation, make sure the cutter is positioned to just skim the surface when the block is vertical, and make sure the rod is tight to the top of the vise every time the part is rotated between cuts. Here it is after two cuts.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/uiilj3e2f/IMG_2095.jpg)
Okay, three things - when the part gets farther over on its side after a few cuts, move the mill table over to make sure the cutter wont dig into the lip at the end of the arced area.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wn2yk609j/IMG_2096.jpg)
And after the passes on both sides of the arc:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7h20dbr9j/IMG_2098.jpg)
Repeated the process on the other end of the part:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fzbghod7r/IMG_2099.jpg)
So, now the post is shaped, still left a little long to allow for fine tuning the fit of the gear.
Next up is to make the top plate and the bearing surfaces. On the original, the plate is steel, and the bearing surfaces appear to be bronze or something like it. I may make the whole thing from one chunk of bronze, the bearing plates would be quite thin, hard to fasten to the outer plate....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: mklotz on March 02, 2018, 05:50:42 PM
It's really fascinating to see the 'real' pictures and the 'fake' pictures
Awesome project.
Is it Model or is it Memorex?

If you want to see some fantastic model trompe l'oeil, take a look at Michael Paul Smith's work with model cars and forced perspective...

https://petapixel.com/2013/10/14/life-like-miniature-scenes-shot-using-model-cars-forced-perspective-250-ps/

For more examples, his Flickr page is here...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/24796741@N05/
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 02, 2018, 06:05:50 PM
It's really fascinating to see the 'real' pictures and the 'fake' pictures
Awesome project.
Is it Model or is it Memorex?

If you want to see some fantastic model trompe l'oeil, take a look at Michael Paul Smith's work with model cars and forced perspective...

https://petapixel.com/2013/10/14/life-like-miniature-scenes-shot-using-model-cars-forced-perspective-250-ps/ (https://petapixel.com/2013/10/14/life-like-miniature-scenes-shot-using-model-cars-forced-perspective-250-ps/)

For more examples, his Flickr page is here...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/24796741@N05/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/24796741@N05/)
Those are amazing! 

Seems like there is a Twilight Zone episode there, he wakes up one day inside one of his shots and can't get out...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 03, 2018, 08:14:42 PM
FYI - going to be a break in the build for a bit, not sure how long. I am getting the final sub work done for the pool run tomorrow, then Monday I'm starting in on some work at the dentist that will keep me out of the shop for a while.  :(

So, probably not much in the way of updates this week.

Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 04, 2018, 07:22:06 PM
Been a bit of a scramble at the last day, but got the turtle sub all assembled, apparently working (will find out for real tonight at the pool), and here is a shot of the ballasting in the tub - matter of adding/trimming chunks of closed cell foam to the inside of the shell to get it to float level with 'decks', um, back, just out of the water. Then, at the pool, will either add a little more floatation or some wheel weights to fine tune its performance under power. The diving planes, err, fins, at the bow, I mean behind the neck, can pivot and act to aim the nose down, so the props can push it the rest of the way under. The props are gimbaled in both directions, so they act as steering as well as angling the stern, I mean butt, up and down.   :Lol:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/f4c1t5z3b/IMG_1756a.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 04, 2018, 11:12:53 PM
FYI - going to be a break in the build for a bit, not sure how long. I am getting the final sub work done for the pool run tomorrow...

That wouldn't happen if you'd been working on the Stanley. You wouldn't be able to tear yourself away.

re: Marv's post...I've seen some of that work. The ingenuity used to put models into dioramas or making them appear 'real' is amazing and really adds to the hobby.

Sort of like seeing a turtle in a tub...but not quite.  :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 05, 2018, 02:20:06 AM
FYI - going to be a break in the build for a bit, not sure how long. I am getting the final sub work done for the pool run tomorrow...

That wouldn't happen if you'd been working on the Stanley. You wouldn't be able to tear yourself away.

re: Marv's post...I've seen some of that work. The ingenuity used to put models into dioramas or making them appear 'real' is amazing and really adds to the hobby.

Sort of like seeing a turtle in a tub...but not quite.  :lolb:

Well, the turtle was a natural in the pool, swam very well! Got pics and videos, will put them up in the morning probably. Just a few minor tweaks needed, but for first run of a complex mechanism it went quite well, very happy about that.  :whoohoo:


Good thing, since tomorrow noon I go in to get a tooth removed and bridge installed, so will be out of the shop for a while, don't know how long, and the elves are bad at posting about their work. So see you all when that crap is all done!   :(

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jo on March 05, 2018, 07:32:18 AM

Well, the turtle was a natural in the pool, swam very well! Got pics and videos, will put them up in the morning probably. Just a few minor tweaks needed, but for first run of a complex mechanism it went quite well, very happy about that.  :whoohoo:


Good thing, since tomorrow noon I go in to get a tooth removed and bridge installed, so will be out of the shop for a while, don't know how long, and the elves are bad at posting about their work. So see you all when that crap is all done!   :(

Hang on...

 :pics:

Chris - Don't you go off enjoying yourself with your trip to the dentist until after you have posted the turtle pics and video   :slap:

Jo
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 05, 2018, 12:53:25 PM

Well, the turtle was a natural in the pool, swam very well! Got pics and videos, will put them up in the morning probably. Just a few minor tweaks needed, but for first run of a complex mechanism it went quite well, very happy about that.  :whoohoo:


Good thing, since tomorrow noon I go in to get a tooth removed and bridge installed, so will be out of the shop for a while, don't know how long, and the elves are bad at posting about their work. So see you all when that crap is all done!   :(

Hang on...

 :pics:

Chris - Don't you go off enjoying yourself with your trip to the dentist until after you have posted the turtle pics and video   :slap:

Jo
Enjoy. Dentist.    :shrug:

Dentist. Enjoy.    :shrug:

Sorry, those words go together as well as you enjoying your time at work!    :ShakeHead:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 05, 2018, 01:05:15 PM
Here are some pictures from last nights run of the submarine fleet at the pool.

Started out with the turtle swimming around by himself, all was well in the ocean...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gzq3winmf/IMG_1761.jpg)

Then, he was spotted by the flying sub, scouting out from the Seaview (remember the old tv series?)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7rxvfto9z/IMG_1770.jpg)

The crew of the flying sub freaked out about this giant monster turtle, and called in reinforcements from the world navies:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/48bxq0t9z/IMG_1772.jpg)

Fortunately, the turtle was able to make friends and they started to play with each other:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9wi8gx5c7/IMG_1777.jpg)

One big happy family...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/utegllb2v/IMG_1778.jpg)

I have some videos, will take some time to get them uploaded....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 05, 2018, 01:14:54 PM
Videos of the Sea Turtle submarine from last night:

Quick clip from underwater:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KgJnCaLCck

Couple longer movies of first run in the pool:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitDTpnCoi0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11F9gGyz6JA
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jo on March 05, 2018, 04:42:06 PM
Enjoy. Dentist.    :shrug:

Dentist. Enjoy.    :shrug:

Sorry, those words go together as well as you enjoying your time at work!    :ShakeHead:

Thanks for the pictures Chris  :mischief: Looks good  :ThumbsUp:

One has to enjoy our time at W**k while we still have it, it will not last forever  :pinkelephant:

Jo
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: b.lindsey on March 05, 2018, 05:30:22 PM
Really cool Chris. Thanks for the videos as well as the pictures. Now you can go and enjoy the dentist :)

Bill
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 05, 2018, 10:31:24 PM
Really cool Chris. Thanks for the videos as well as the pictures. Now you can go and enjoy the dentist :)

Bill
Thanks Bill, things actually went a lot better than I had feared, once he pumped in a few quarts of novacaine (or whatever they use these days - seemed to remove feeling but not take away the muscle control, so didn't drool all over everything like Jo at the foundry). Turned out he only had to remove the half of the tooth that had cracked off and was shifting, the other half was still anchored solidly so he left that, will build on it for the new bridge. The shots have worn off (the next part I feared) but there is very little pain.

So, unless things go bad in the next few days, should be able to spend time in the shop a whole lot sooner than I thought!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ClaytonFirth on March 05, 2018, 11:00:40 PM
The turtle is awesome Chris. Interesting perspective in the video with the hand on it's back, for some reason i thought that it was going to be a lot larger from the build photos.

C
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 05, 2018, 11:07:14 PM
The turtle is awesome Chris. Interesting perspective in the video with the hand on it's back, for some reason i thought that it was going to be a lot larger from the build photos.

C
The turtle is 24" long and 18" wide overall, not all that big, the camera angles can really exagerate things. Things went very well for its first time out - got worried at first when it didn't power up at the pool. Turned out the on/off switch on the speed control had a faulty lead (the only wire connection that I didnt make, it came that way from the factory) and the wires seperated inside the heat-shrink tubing over the tab on the switch. Once I found that, did a quick bit of wire stripping and twisting to force it on, and all went well from there.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on March 06, 2018, 08:07:29 AM
Hi Chris,
 Now that is pretty cool!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Mikem on March 06, 2018, 12:35:49 PM
Chris that is awesome !
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ShopShoe on March 06, 2018, 01:21:32 PM
Fantastic.  :ThumbsUp:
 
Now, you need a giant squid.  :Jester:

ShopShoe
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 06, 2018, 02:13:22 PM
Fantastic.  :ThumbsUp:
 
Now, you need a giant squid.  :Jester:

ShopShoe
Now that would be some interesting linkages!  :Lol:

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 06, 2018, 02:59:30 PM
Getting caught up on work from yesterday, I got started on the top plate on the plate which holds the slider portion of the dipper yoke block. Here is an image from their catalog of one, I think from a different model shovel since the details dont match:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/d5397b7cn/Yoke_Block.jpg)
While similar, here is what the top plate on this shovel looks like:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qx1l8royv/DSC_4768.jpg)
In both those pictures you can see there is a small bar in the center, held on a post with a cotter. That appears to be a retainer to keep the bolts from turning, not sure if they used that to adjust the tension on the dipper boom to keep the gear mesh proper while things wore - there is a bearing plate underneath where it rides on the top of the boom, makes sense that they would want a way to take up the slack as that wore.
EDIT: looking through the catalogs I have, found a sentance where Marion states they would put shim plates in to keep things in contact as they block and boom surfaces wore. They also call this either a yoke block or a saddle block - they used both terms in one sentence, must be a regional term.

I started with a piece of 1/4" thick stainless flat bar, trimmed to width/length, and started hogging in the large areas around the ribs on top with a large end mill.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/c13212ayf/IMG_2101.jpg)
Then came back and fined in the corners and thickness of the ribs with a smaller one:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3vl02wezr/IMG_2102.jpg)
Today I will cut the narrow rib space in the center, and start notching in the shapes on top of the ribs.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: mklotz on March 06, 2018, 03:10:43 PM
You should convince the researchers at Woods Hole that they need turtles like yours to surreptitiously track sea turtles.  Then sell them for $50K a copy;  institutions are always paying sucker prices for specialty equipment.  For an extra $10K mount a GoPro in the head so they can take pictures of the wildlife they annoy.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 06, 2018, 03:19:48 PM
You should convince the researchers at Woods Hole that they need turtles like yours to surreptitiously track sea turtles.  Then sell them for $50K a copy;  institutions are always paying sucker prices for specialty equipment.  For an extra $10K mount a GoPro in the head so they can take pictures of the wildlife they annoy.
I wish I could claim it as my idea - I got the idea for this sub from the series of shows on PBS (Nature - Spy In The Wild miniseries) where they did exactly that, made RC animals to put cameras in, so they could interact with wild animals with no humans around. They did a number of them, the turtle (which watched other turtles, whales, dolphins), a monkey, birds standing on the ground (to watch elephant herds), things like that. They put cameras in the eye sockets of the 'animals', very cool stuff.
Once I saw the show, I went "gotta build one of those!".
You can watch those episodes on Nature's website here:
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/spy-in-the-wild-about/14810/
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: b.lindsey on March 06, 2018, 03:26:50 PM
I have also seen them mount small video cameras to live animals for the same purpose...as I recall it was penguins so that they could see what they were doing under the antarctic ice in searching for food. Either way its an ingenious idea.

Bill
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on March 06, 2018, 04:13:56 PM
Hi Chris,   saw this in the Engineer.....A contemporainious photo from 1890....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 06, 2018, 04:56:18 PM
I have also seen them mount small video cameras to live animals for the same purpose...as I recall it was penguins so that they could see what they were doing under the antarctic ice in searching for food. Either way its an ingenious idea.

Bill
They got some great footage that way. There was another Nature series, Animals With Cameras, on recently where they did that. They had a lot of fun getting the cameras on little harnesses on some of the animals. I think it was a chimp that pulled on it and demolished the rig in seconds.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 06, 2018, 04:57:31 PM
Hi Chris,   saw this in the Engineer.....A contemporainious photo from 1890....
Great photo! That was one of the ones that did not use a crowd engine, but just had the dipper boom hinged on the main boom. There were half a dozen variations on that theme over the years. Thanks!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 06, 2018, 05:01:20 PM
More on the top plate - milled the smaller center area out, and took the tops of the ribs down in the center, also notched for the retaining bar.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/48gzn39vb/IMG_2105.jpg)
Then tipped it 45 degrees to do the angles at the sides
(https://s5.postimg.cc/puw044g5j/IMG_2106.jpg)
and a shallower angle for the other ribs
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mo1gki3fb/IMG_2107.jpg)
and drilled the hole for the center post for the cotter, and the outside holes for the through bolts
(https://s5.postimg.cc/e5s0g59rb/IMG_2109.jpg)
and lastly took the bottom down to final thickness
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mba2ebsvb/IMG_2110.jpg)
Here it is set on the dipper boom where it will go:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5nikbu5tj/IMG_2112.jpg)
I think I will put it in the tumbler for a little while to even out the tool marks from the mill, then get started on the bearing plates.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 07, 2018, 02:26:05 PM
Next up was the bronze bearing plates, which ride on top of the dipper booms. I started by squaring up a length of bronze rod, and hacksawing it down the middle to split it into two plates. On the original, they are bolted onto the steel top plate, so I figured I'd give it a try to do the same thing. Since the scaled down plates are so thin, I did not want to depend on just a turn or two of the thread, so I drilled/tapped the holes 2-56, then silver soldered in a bolt in each hole, bolt head to the bottom. The bolt heads were then sawn off.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ke97fh1hz/IMG_2114.jpg)
At this point, the surface against the steel plate is the milled-flat outside of the original bar, the outer surface is the rough sawn side, that still needs to be taken down to final dimensions. So, I bolted the plates together:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3qhpcyjl3/IMG_2113.jpg)
and took several light cuts to smooth the bottom surface and take the bearing plates to final thickness:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6xc8wlbqv/IMG_2116.jpg)
Here it is set on the boom, you can see how the bronze plates are the same width as the tops of the booms.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/lgjdy0clj/IMG_2119.jpg)
And then I drilled and added the little post for the cotter pin to hold the retaining plate.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ltas467pz/IMG_2120.jpg)
Next step is to measure for geear mesh and trim the vertical bar to length, then add the bearings to the end. Got to be precise on that one, so it, um, measure once, cut twice, still too short.... No, thats not it... Hmmm...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 07, 2018, 08:13:06 PM
Some careful measurements with the gear and post, and trimmed the vertical post to what should be a good length to get a proper mesh on the gear, plus a slight extra length to allow for fine tuning (can trim a bit off the top of the post if the fit is too loose). Then, clamped on a block of scrap so I could drill the hole for the bronze bearing for the shaft:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7ekffdng7/IMG_2122.jpg)
The bearing cap is steel, so to get a matching hole in the steel blank I used another piece to drill with, so that both sides of the hole were drilled with the same metal to keep the drill from wandering out into a softer side. The second piece could be used as a spare cap if I botch the first one.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tdqu2kouv/IMG_2121.jpg)
Here are the parts so far:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/v5jsxhvd3/IMG_2123.jpg)
I then rounded the ends and top of the cap the same way that I did for the post the other day, post #792, using a rod in the hole as a height guide on the top of the mill vise, and made cuts at several angles to rough in the curve. Also drilled and turned a piece of bronze rod for the bearing. Here are all the parts for the assembly so far:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/iqx0x6bkn/IMG_2124.jpg)
Now, need to make up the through-bolts from some 1/8" round bar, threaded at both ends, and the nuts to hold it all together. Then I can check the fit on the gears, and trim or shim as needed for a good sliding fit on the booms. Good place to stop for the day!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 07, 2018, 10:46:07 PM
This afternoon I made up the two studs for the yoke, just some 1/8" rod threaded at each end. Also needed a set of heavy nuts for them, so I repeated the method I used for the nus on the booms, and threaded a set of 5-40 nuts onto a bolt, tightened them down to the head of the bolt, and screwed that into the end of a rod held in a 5C collet in the hex collet holder. Here is what I started with, full size hardware-store pattern nuts (quite huge for a model).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3wd0x8z8n/IMG_2125.jpg)
A few passes on each face, turn the collet one face in the vise, repeat 6 times, and I got a set of heavy nuts for the model, no drilling, threading time needed, only took a few minutes.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6dpaau4on/IMG_2126.jpg)
Then, time for a test of the gear mesh on the dipper handle:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6dpaauk47/IMG_2130.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/y11zoxxl3/IMG_2128.jpg)
Looks like I got the length of the post right on the first go, it moves nice and smooth, good contact all the way up and down the rack.
 :whoohoo:
So, time for a bit of paint on these new parts (none on the bronze plates or the sides of the vert post), and the dipper handle assembly is complete!
 :cartwheel:

Next steps? Have not decided whether to make the gears that will go to the crowd engine (one large wheel that goes on the outside of this shaft, one small one that goes on the crankshaft of the engine), or start on the main boom parts.

Time for a cookie and a relaxed ponder... (we need a emoji of sitting in a rocker eating a cookie)
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 08, 2018, 02:07:27 AM
......

Next steps? Have not decided whether to make the gears that will go to the crowd engine (one large wheel that goes on the outside of this shaft, one small one that goes on the crankshaft of the engine), or start on the main boom parts.

.....
Decided to go with making the gears on the shipper shaft (thats what they call the shaft on the parts I just made)...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: sco on March 08, 2018, 06:02:23 AM
Really slick work turning out these tricky parts Chris!  Still following this build and enjoying the aquatic distractions too,

Simon.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 08, 2018, 02:27:00 PM
......

Next steps? Have not decided whether to make the gears that will go to the crowd engine (one large wheel that goes on the outside of this shaft, one small one that goes on the crankshaft of the engine), or start on the main boom parts.

.....
Decided to go with making the gears on the shipper shaft (thats what they call the shaft on the parts I just made)...
Correction - turns out I don't have any stock large enough for those gears (they are 3.5" diameter, .25" thick), so I'll have to order some. So, in the meantime, guess I'll start shaping down the sides for the main booms.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 08, 2018, 06:55:23 PM
A coat of paint on the shipper yoke assembly,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/x9mamzf13/IMG_2132.jpg)
Then I found some wider stock for the gears (went through the plans and listed the other gears in the main gear trains as well, ordered enough for those too) from a supplier with short lengths of 'drop' offcuts at a good price. While waiting for those to arrive I got started prepping the stock for the shells of the main booms. Those are cut from some lengths of thin 2" wide steel bars, and used the same holding block that I used for the dipper booms to square up one end for the base, and went down one side to remove the half-round edge from the stock.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6bsdl8mo7/IMG_2131.jpg)
Due to the length of the bars, just under 21", it took three passes per bar to do the whole length since the Sherline has a travel of about 8-1/2" max.
Next is to take the bars down to final width (1.8125") by taking the rest off the second side of each bar. I've made up a card stock template for the booms, which are parallel sided for half the length, then they curve in to the halh-round at the top end where the chain sheaves are. I'll use the template to mark the bars for rough-sawing the shape in, to save milling time.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on March 08, 2018, 09:06:49 PM
I’m still  :popcorn: , DrinkPint: , and following along in amazement. Just one question: I notice that you are using a lot of brass and then painting it. I can imagine the brass would be a easier “carved” material with the Sherlines; but, wouldn’t a good ali work and be more cost effective? Or is a case of “I got it and I’m gonna use it?”  :lolb:  I also love the turtle. I couldn’t help but laugh this morning when one my customers that is a cattle farmer offered a $2 a shell bounty for the turtles taking over his two acre livestock pond. Apparently, they cause damage to the substrate of the clay that forms most of the ponds in this area and with enough of the little fellers, they can “sink” a pond  :shrug:. Just had a stupidly good German dark chocolate bread cookie and cream with a snort of ol’ Kentucky’ s finest  and a double espresso. Don’t tell the elves  :lolb:

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 08, 2018, 09:37:11 PM
I’m still  :popcorn: , DrinkPint: , and following along in amazement. Just one question: I notice that you are using a lot of brass and then painting it. I can imagine the brass would be a easier “carved” material with the Sherlines; but, wouldn’t a good ali work and be more cost effective? Or is a case of “I got it and I’m gonna use it?”  :lolb:  I also love the turtle. I couldn’t help but laugh this morning when one my customers that is a cattle farmer offered a $2 a shell bounty for the turtles taking over his two acre livestock pond. Apparently, they cause damage to the substrate of the clay that forms most of the ponds in this area and with enough of the little fellers, they can “sink” a pond  :shrug: . Just had a stupidly good German dark chocolate bread cookie and cream with a snort of ol’ Kentucky’ s finest  and a double espresso. Don’t tell the elves  :lolb:

Cletus
Hi Cletus,  pass the chocolate!!


I much prefer brass to aluminum, cuts so much nicer and doesn't cling to the cutter like ali does. Just a personal preference, feel its worth the cost to enjoy working with it. Lots of sizes available, and I can find larger sizes cheap as drops fairly often.


Funny about the turtles, never knew they were tunnelers! I'd rather have them than those stupid groundhogs, much easier to catch up to!  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dan Rowe on March 08, 2018, 10:12:40 PM
Chris, I reread the first 6 pages of his thread and could not find the scale of this build, what scale did you choose?

I like working with steel best but I have both big and small machines to make chips with.

Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 08, 2018, 10:21:25 PM
Chris, I reread the first 6 pages of his thread and could not find the scale of this build, what scale did you choose?

I like working with steel best but I have both big and small machines to make chips with.

Dan
This one is 3/4":1', same as my Shay. Large enough to make the engines work, small enough that I can still meet move the model, just!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 09, 2018, 06:52:34 PM
Continuing on with the main boom sides - took the second side to final width on each piece,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/th38q83hj/IMG_2135.jpg)
then angled the part to rough in the curved taper on the end on one side
(https://s5.postimg.cc/z59jh4n9j/IMG_2137.jpg)
and then the other
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bea5z0fcn/IMG_2138.jpg)
The four sides (two booms, with the dipper handle between them) were then stacked together and held with clamps, and taken to the belt/disc sander to get a fair curve along the tapered area. Doing them all together meant I knew all 4 would come out the same shape.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/87fmfeac7/IMG_2140.jpg)
While they are still clamped up together, I can drill some reference holes so I can bolt them together and handle them seperately as needed for future steps. The reference holes will be at the pivot for the tip sheave, and slong the length where other bolts will be in the finished pieces.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 10, 2018, 11:12:55 PM
Was out most of today, but this afternoon got some time to work on the main booms. The first step, while it was all still clamped together from shaping the edges, was to drill the outer end for the chain sheave pivot rod.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/sj5pqbqcn/IMG_2141.jpg)
Made up a little plug, same diamter as the hole, slightly shorter than the distance through the bars, with a clearance hole for a 4-40 bolt and bolted on some with some washers to span to the bars. That will hold the end tight without letting anything shift during all the drilling operations to come - last thing I want is for the bars to move and some of the holes to no longer line up!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/b5vfbgflz/IMG_2142.jpg)
Then drilled the row of holes at the bottom end of the booms
(https://s5.postimg.cc/uayol8hfb/IMG_2143.jpg)
and ran in a set of 2-56 nuts and bolts to clamp that end. Now, both ends are bolted up tight, and cannot shift. All I need to do now is drill a gazillion holes along the length for all the cross bolts - will clamp the bars together as i go so they cannot lift and leave gaps as the drill goes through each plate.
Here I have spot drilled for the first batch of holes, ready to do the drilling for real. There is a hole every 1/2" down the edges, and an alternating set of holes in the middle - this matches the pattern on the real thing.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bimthn5lj/IMG_2144.jpg)
I also put in an order for another batch of 2-56 scale pattern nuts from Fastener Express - after counting how many are needed, decided it was worth the cost rather than make that many myself (yes, I am crazy, but not THAT nuts!  :insane: ). I have some of thier scale pattern nuts, they look correct for this model, so will go with them. There are 140-some cross bolts, and 50 or so vertical bolts in each of the two booms, a lot of the cross bolts go all the way through both, except for the ones in the gap where the dipper boom goes. Those are riveted flush on the inside edge and bolted on the outside edge. I have several long lengths of 2-56 threaded rod that I got from McMaster to use as the studs.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on March 11, 2018, 12:17:51 AM
All that screwing around is going to drive you nuts...

 ;D

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 11, 2018, 12:31:54 AM
All that screwing around is going to drive you nuts...

 ;D

Pete
Thats no drive, thats a short putt!   :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 11, 2018, 06:17:57 PM
This has been a boring day so far - boring (well, drilling) lots and lots of holes in the main boom side panels. As with shaping them, they were done in three batches since the mill table can't move far enough to do it in one go. So, first batch:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fbqjlrpsn/IMG_2145.jpg)
second batch:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/88io65s2v/IMG_2146.jpg)
Third batch:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xrb0j6jcn/IMG_2148.jpg)
Few swipes with a file to debur the bottom plate where the drill came through, and the four plates are ready to go:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ux7v5qow7/IMG_2149.jpg)
Next up will be the wood core pieces for the booms, just like on the dipper booms they are steel plates on all four sides, wrapping a white oak core piece which Marion did to absorb the shock loads on the booms, and they said it also kept the booms from taking a set twist from side loads.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 11, 2018, 07:55:43 PM
And got some well-seasoned white oak out of the scrap pile in the woodshop, cut it to 1/4" thick on the table saw, and cut the outline on the bandsaw...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6z7tnvenr/IMG_2150.jpg)
Then clamped one of the side plates to each wood core, and used the holes in the side plate as a drill guide for drilling matching holes in the wood parts. Since the plates act as a guide for the drill, I was able to just use the drill press to zip through the rows of holes, hand holding the parts onto a wood block in the drill press vice to prevent excessive tearout in the back of the wood. This went much quicker than drilling the holes in the metal!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/hyt0zgxd3/IMG_2152.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 12, 2018, 05:33:26 PM
With the core and side plates done, time to move onto the top/bottom plates on the main booms. The top plate is a simple piece of 3/8" wide flat bar, starting at the base, bent around the top end, and ending a few inches into the bottom, where a second wider section starts.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dvooety47/IMG_2153.jpg)
For the bottom plate, started with some 7/8" wide flat steel and took it to 3/4" wide (did not have any 3/4" wide to start with), and narrowed the bottom end to 3/8".
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kywjugb9j/IMG_2154.jpg)
Switched the plates to the mill vise, and cut the angled sections at either end:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4b51ryo7r/IMG_2156.jpg)
Here are the strips set in place, ready for drilling the through bolts, at the front end:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/km55oa8fb/IMG_2157.jpg)
and the back end:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8x160bp6f/IMG_2158.jpg)
The wider section is only on the outside of each boom, there to stiffen the boom to sideways loads, and also provides a step for working on it. Most of the shovels came with a ladder that ran along the bottom just above this plate to provide access up the boom. The LeRoy shovel is missing this ladder, not sure when it was removed - may have been when they abandoned it, may have been earlier, no way to tell. Next time I get out there I am going to take a closer look and see if I can figure out how it was attached to the boom, cannot tell from my photos.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Gas_mantle on March 12, 2018, 05:39:43 PM
Incredible work Chris, in some photos it's hard to tell its not the full sized machine  :)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on March 12, 2018, 08:32:22 PM
Wow! Damn Dog you and those Elves are just chewing up the metal and spitting it out. Do they ever sleep got to be some powerful cookies you feeding them.... :lolb:

 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 12, 2018, 09:17:03 PM
Wow! Damn Dog you and those Elves are just chewing up the metal and spitting it out. Do they ever sleep got to be some powerful cookies you feeding them.... :lolb:

 :cheers:
Don
Dark Chocolate Caffiene Powdered Sugar Filled High Octane Cookies!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on March 12, 2018, 09:36:55 PM
I'm beginning to think it's the elves doing all the work while Chris is playing with his submarines  :LittleDevil:

Amazing work, whoever is doing it  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 12, 2018, 09:43:19 PM
I'm beginning to think it's the elves doing all the work while Chris is playing with his submarines  :LittleDevil:

Amazing work, whoever is doing it  :cheers:
Dang - they figured it out!

Sigh.

I'll pass the compliments along to the elves...

 :Lol:

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 13, 2018, 06:37:06 PM
Been drilling lots of holes, got the vertical ones done through the top/bottom plates, then used those as a guide for drilling the wood cores. Given the deptch of the booms, the drill would barely make it through, and tended to wander a little in the wood, so I drilled from both top and bottom to meet the holes up in the middle.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/z3y81jgw7/IMG_2159.jpg)
Still need to drill the last few holes at the narrow end, then will make the two spacer blocks that sit between the two booms and space them out to take the dipper boom. Then, can start cutting and installing all those long bolts to hold it all together! Hopefully I remember to first do the short ones in the space where the dipper boom goes - they are riveted over flush on the inside edges so they don't scrape on the dipper boom.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 14, 2018, 05:30:38 PM
Bit more done on the booms, got all the vertical holes drilled, some of the studs are in, lots more to go...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/jhc0lhc2f/IMG_2161.jpg)
After all are in, I'll use the sander to shorten up the occasional long one - easier to cut a batch to one length and trim than to cut each one to length as the booms taper in...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ramon Wilson on March 14, 2018, 06:22:16 PM
That's some awesome metal work from such a small mill Chris. Love your approach all round but tackling these booms as you have -
 well that's just bloody fantastic in my book :praise2: Your constant output is nothing short of impressive to say the least  :ThumbsUp:

Just goes to prove what can be done if you put your mind to it  - very inspirational indeed  :cheers:

Tug

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: sco on March 14, 2018, 09:21:06 PM
That boom is mighty impressive, focus though - don't want any whoopsies now!

Simon.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 14, 2018, 09:38:27 PM
Thanks guys! Very happy with it so far, just small bolt holes to drill in them from here, for the plates that hold things like chain sheaves and such. About ready to make the center spacer blocks.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: wagnmkr on March 14, 2018, 09:50:15 PM
Chris ... I have no words for you ingenuity ... those "over there" might say they are "Gobsmacked", and it would fit.

Tom
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 14, 2018, 09:59:20 PM
Chris ... I have no words for you ingenuity ... those "over there" might say they are "Gobsmacked", and it would fit.

Tom
I didn't know making parts larger than your mill was unusual, locomotive factories do it all the time!  :Lol:


Seriously, thanks much, just having lots of fun making parts in a small shop!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 14, 2018, 10:24:37 PM
Bit more done on the booms, got all the vertical holes drilled, some of the studs are in, lots more to go...

As in..."darn, this might be a full day job instead of an hour or so".  ;D

At your pace...

You live by a different clock.

Or in a different universe.

I'm thinking the latter. In my universe, it sometimes takes a half a day just to wake up.
Perhaps I should change my choice of coffee.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 14, 2018, 10:40:51 PM
Bit more done on the booms, got all the vertical holes drilled, some of the studs are in, lots more to go...

As in..."darn, this might be a full day job instead of an hour or so".  ;D

At your pace...

You live by a different clock.

Or in a different universe.

I'm thinking the latter. In my universe, it sometimes takes a half a day just to wake up.
Perhaps I should change my choice of coffee.
Hey Zee!

As in, gotta wait for the delivery this afternoon (just arrived) of more threaded rod for the studs, should be another hour (my universe) or week (your alternate one - or am I in the alternate one, lost track, so many wormholes....). Though the hour will start tomorrow, off to archery league in a few minutes.

I think I drifted into this slow-time universe back when I had too many back-to-back-back meetings when I was an engineer - sure you know how time goes backwards in long meetings!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 14, 2018, 11:39:18 PM
Bit more done on the booms, got all the vertical holes drilled, some of the studs are in, lots more to go...

As in..."darn, this might be a full day job instead of an hour or so".  ;D

At your pace...

You live by a different clock.

Or in a different universe.

I'm thinking the latter. In my universe, it sometimes takes a half a day just to wake up.
Perhaps I should change my choice of coffee.
Hey Zee!

As in, gotta wait for the delivery this afternoon (just arrived) of more threaded rod for the studs, should be another hour (my universe) or week (your alternate one - or am I in the alternate one, lost track, so many wormholes....). Though the hour will start tomorrow, off to archery league in a few minutes.

I think I drifted into this slow-time universe back when I had too many back-to-back-back meetings when I was an engineer - sure you know how time goes backwards in long meetings!

 :cheers:

As I said.  :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 15, 2018, 12:50:05 AM
Bit more done on the booms, got all the vertical holes drilled, some of the studs are in, lots more to go...

As in..."darn, this might be a full day job instead of an hour or so".  ;D

At your pace...

You live by a different clock.

Or in a different universe.

I'm thinking the latter. In my universe, it sometimes takes a half a day just to wake up.
Perhaps I should change my choice of coffee.
Hey Zee!

As in, gotta wait for the delivery this afternoon (just arrived) of more threaded rod for the studs, should be another hour (my universe) or week (your alternate one - or am I in the alternate one, lost track, so many wormholes....). Though the hour will start tomorrow, off to archery league in a few minutes.

I think I drifted into this slow-time universe back when I had too many back-to-back-back meetings when I was an engineer - sure you know how time goes backwards in long meetings!

 :cheers:

As I said.  :lolb:


Huh. That was three days ago, why the delay?


Oohhh... Two hours in your universe. Explains a lot!


 :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 15, 2018, 04:42:04 PM
This morning I got the rest of the vertical bolts cut (abrasive cutoff wheel in the small miter saw) and installed, and also the spacer blocks cut out of some white oak left over from the last sailboat project. The shapes may look odd, but the angles are there to allow the dipper boom to swing  in the middle gap, and for the chains to clear at the narrow end.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/u8smr74pj/IMG_2169.jpg)
Next step is to cut a notch in the lower side of the large block for the ends of the turntable chains, and then start drilling holes through the oak for the horizontal through bolts. Oh, and also need to trim the excess off the vertical bolts at the narrow end of the booms.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on March 15, 2018, 06:29:16 PM
Chris, work is progressing and looking great as always. Did you notice how much those two pieces looked just like a chainsaw bar?

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 15, 2018, 06:31:11 PM
Chris, work is progressing and looking great as always. Did you notice how much those two pieces looked just like a chainsaw bar?

Cletus
Yes I did - it feels like one too if it slips in the hand!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 15, 2018, 08:13:23 PM
This afternoon clamped the larger block between the booms, and drilled the through-holes for the horizontal bolts. Did several holes, replaced the clamps with some threaded rod, then did the rest of the holes.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wul6bmv2f/IMG_2170.jpg)
Then likewise with the smaller spacer block:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/hymn41rdj/IMG_2171.jpg)
Parts so far:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/zbwxiwuef/IMG_2173.jpg)
Now, time to cut a batch of long studs to go through the blocks, and a set of short ones to go through the booms between the blocks. The ones in the way of the dipper boom opening will be peaned over on the inside,nuts on the outside. The ones at the narrow end of the booms will just be bolted inside and out, the chain sheaves are spaced so they won't hit them. Once the short bolts are all in, I can bolt up the whole assembly.
There are a number of other holes for mounting the engines, chain sheaves, other bits that can be drilled after the assembly is done, will drill them as the parts are made to ensure proper fits. Some of the parts go on these through bolts, some have new holes.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on March 15, 2018, 09:21:48 PM
Dam that’s looking mighty fine Chris!

Good thing the extra corn fields were cut before we got the high winds a couple of weeks back! :popcorn:

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 16, 2018, 01:13:49 AM
Dam that’s looking mighty fine Chris!

Good thing the extra corn fields were cut before we got the high winds a couple of weeks back! :popcorn:

Cheers Kerrin
Knew I shoulda bought stock in that popcorn ranch!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gbritnell on March 16, 2018, 11:09:12 AM
Truly outstanding work Chris!
gbritnell
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on March 16, 2018, 05:37:41 PM
Bit more done on the booms, got all the vertical holes drilled, some of the studs are in, lots more to go...

As in..."darn, this might be a full day job instead of an hour or so".  ;D

At your pace...

You live by a different clock.

Or in a different universe.

I'm thinking the latter. In my universe, it sometimes takes a half a day just to wake up.
Perhaps I should change my choice of coffee.
Zee,
Have you considered it may not be the coffee, but what you put in it.
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 16, 2018, 08:02:31 PM
Bit more done on the booms, got all the vertical holes drilled, some of the studs are in, lots more to go...

As in..."darn, this might be a full day job instead of an hour or so".  ;D

At your pace...

You live by a different clock.

Or in a different universe.

I'm thinking the latter. In my universe, it sometimes takes a half a day just to wake up.
Perhaps I should change my choice of coffee.
Zee,
Have you considered it may not be the coffee, but what you put in it.
Gerald. thanks


Well, it's niether, since I don't drink coffee! Keep saying, dark chocolate mint chip cookies!! They bend time.   :Lol:


This afternoon I've been working on the cross bolts, one more session and they will be done...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 16, 2018, 09:20:00 PM
Truly outstanding work Chris!
gbritnell
Thanks George!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 16, 2018, 09:37:00 PM
Just finished getting the last of the nuts on the studs on the main boom - sure are a lot of the little things!

I did some experiments, and changed my mind on how to do the inside ends of the studs where the dipper handle goes through. Rather than peening over the ends of the studs there, it worked out much faster and better to counterdrill halfway through the inside plates, using a drill just larger than the outside diameter of the heads of some 2-56 socket head screws.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/k8733jtav/IMG_2174.jpg)
Then, ran in the socket heads and tightened the nuts on the outside, and used the belt sander to grind off the tops of the socket heads and take them smooth to the inside faces of the booms. In this next photo, the center bolts are all in and smoothed out on the inside, and the short bolts are ready to install at the narrow end of the boom, up near the tips where the chains cross through. Those do not need to be flush mounted, since the chains will be inboard of the booms.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bd68t1c87/IMG_2175.jpg)
Then, it was just a matter of putting a nut on one end of each cross stud, pushing them through the holes, and putting on a nut on the other ends. Some of the holes did not line up that well in the center of the wood block, so ran the drill bit through those again to smooth out the inside of the hole, and got them all in. Once all were in, went back and tightened them up, adjusting till the exposed threads were about even on all of them.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bpxmz8pd3/IMG_2179.jpg)
The last two columns of cross bolts at the base ends of the booms are left off for now - they will hold the bottom caps in place. The wood cores stop 0.800" back from the ends to leave room for the plug ends of the caps, which will have a curved section on the ends that fit into the socket on the turntable. The boom sits in the socket, and is held at the base with some turnbuckles, and at the top with some long cables that go back to the A-frame on the turntable - it is all designed so they can dismantle it in the field and put the booms on a flatbed rail car for transport to a new site. In this next photo you can see the holes left in the base of the main booms.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dui00bbk7/IMG_2180.jpg)
The gap in the wood core will be covered with a thick steel plate, that has slots in it for the ends of the chains that go around the turntable and attach to large eyebolts through the wood core - these eyebolts are used to tension the slewing chains (the chain starts at the base of the boom, goes around one side of the turntable, back to the drum at the slew engine in the cab, back forward around the other side of the turntable, and into the other side of this slot where it is pulled tight).
With this much together, it was not long before the shop elves made me hold up the dipper assembly and the main boom so they could take a picture of it:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6eiqeivkn/IMG_2181.jpg)
Now THAT deserves a cookie!   :cartwheel:

Next parts will be the base caps, then probably the bearing blocks for the shipper shaft, which is the axle that the gears ride on to connect the two booms. Still lots of parts to make on the main boom - chain sheaves (4), bases for the two sheaves on the top of the main boom, the large gears on either side that drive the dipper in and out, assorted brackets and steps, controls for the crowd engine... All that before the turntable can be started. I will probably finish the turntable before starting the crowd engine (which is nearly identical to the slew engine, both will be made together).

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on March 17, 2018, 12:04:07 AM
Looking good Chris!
All that cookie munching & sleep deprivation is paying off!

 :popcorn: :popcorn:

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dave Otto on March 17, 2018, 12:15:54 AM
Impressive work Chris!


Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steam Haulage on March 17, 2018, 09:18:53 AM
Hi Chris,

As others have said some really good work, and at such a pace. The following may be of interest.

Yesterday I received the Spring issue of Equipment Echoes, (the journal of the Historical Construction Equipment Associaton (HCEA) based in Ohio, you probably know it already)

In it there is an interesting item on the Marion Model 91 shovel with a picture from the HCEA archives showing the machine at work. Apparently it was one of the machines originally used for the Panama Canal construction.

Last issue there was an article on the Marion Company itself.

Keep the elves happy
Jerry :happyreader:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 17, 2018, 12:21:16 PM
Hi Chris,

As others have said some really good work, and at such a pace. The following may be of interest.

Yesterday I received the Spring issue of Equipment Echoes, (the journal of the Historical Construction Equipment Associaton (HCEA) based in Ohio, you probably know it already)

In it there is an interesting item on the Marion Model 91 shovel with a picture from the HCEA archives showing the machine at work. Apparently it was one of the machines originally used for the Panama Canal construction.

Last issue there was an article on the Marion Company itself.

Keep the elves happy
Jerry :happyreader:
I have heard of the hcea, but don't subscribe, have to go look that up. Thanks!

There were a number of model 91s used in Panama, stories at the quarry here claim this one was used there and brought back, but no documentation has been found to back that up, might be speculation, might be true, we don't know.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 18, 2018, 12:02:52 AM
Got started on the main boom base caps today - laid out where the centerpoints of the arcs were on a pair of brass blocks, drilled those points, plus a third one, for bolts to hold it to a aluminum block on the rotary table - one of the bolt holes is on the center of rotation on the aluminumm piece, so it can be used as a pivot. Then made a template for the block shapes, and traced that out on both sides of the brass, and started milling out the recesses (these caps were huge castings in the original engine, with large recesses to reduce the amount of steel needed).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/valtd88wn/IMG_2185.jpg)
Once the inner shapes were milled in, the arc at the lower end was done:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kns07t8h3/IMG_2188.jpg)
then the part was moved so the other bolt was on the center of the rotary table, and the outside arc going to the edge was cut. This photo shows the reason for the third bolt, to keep the part from spinning when the corner was milled off:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/htouudlqf/IMG_2189.jpg)
With both parts milled to shape, here we are so far, with the parts set next to the ends of the booms:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/m2tkwjh9z/IMG_2190.jpg)
Last step to milling them is to narrow the square ends to form tenons that fit into the ends of the booms. Once that is done, the bolt holes can be drilled in and the caps bolted in place.
To give a better idea of where all this is going, here is a picture from the 3D model of the assembly:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/nvwhkh4x3/Main_Boom_Base.jpg)
In this picture, I omitted the turntable plate and the swing chain, to show the base of the main boom.  The curved part of the base cap rests in the curved saddle on the turntable base, and the boom is held in with the turnbuckles above it and cables up at the top. The hole in the center of the caps is not used to hold the boom in place here, it is used to lift the boom off the turntable to place it on railroad flatcars for transport (its WAY too tall to fit under bridges when on the shovel).
The lever/handle you can see above the boom, just below the chain sheave, is the throttle/reverse lever for the crowd engine up on the main boom.  The large I-beams below the base cap are the ends of the main frame of the machine. The round pipe in the back of the saddle that the base caps are in is the pivot bearing for the turntable.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 18, 2018, 01:54:15 PM
And finished up the base caps this morning....

Milled the tenon into the blank ends, to fit the openings in the bottoms of the booms,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/lkl3ucrhj/IMG_2191.jpg)
Test fit, all looks good...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mmvacwxg7/IMG_2192.jpg)
so drilled the cross bolt holes through the tenons (the holes were already there in the booms and the core block)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/u2ujypdfr/IMG_2193.jpg)
and drilled/tapped the holes for the top/bottom studs. These just go 1/4" in, to hold a short stud, and are threaded into the cap 'casting'.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/oeo97toiv/IMG_2194.jpg)
Installed the studs and nuts, that finishes the caps.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xmghoi8fr/IMG_2195.jpg)
Next up is to make the rectangular plate that goes from the bottom ends of the booms up along the bottom edge, to brace the booms and also give access to the ends of the slew chains. This is the plate with the 4 holes in it in the rendering in the previous post.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on March 18, 2018, 02:16:49 PM
Those caps are great!  Very nice looking boom for sure, Chris, can't wait to see it all together. But I'm sure it won't be too long with you're alternate timeline  :Lol:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: fumopuc on March 18, 2018, 05:46:08 PM
Hi Chris, again a big pleasure to follow your progress.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: sco on March 18, 2018, 06:07:29 PM
You would think that the socket that those caps fit into would get showered with grit and every time the boom was raised or lowered it would wear badly?

Simon.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 18, 2018, 06:27:07 PM
You would think that the socket that those caps fit into would get showered with grit and every time the boom was raised or lowered it would wear badly?

Simon.
That socket is at the base of the main boom, which is at a fixed 45 degree angle, so no wear. It only tilts when they would dismantle the booms for transpirt on a flatbed rail car. The socket is on the turntable that swings left and right. The dipper boom is the one that pivots up and down with every scoop, and that joint is open to let debris fall through.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: sco on March 18, 2018, 06:30:38 PM
You would think that the socket that those caps fit into would get showered with grit and every time the boom was raised or lowered it would wear badly?

Simon.
That socket is at the base of the main boom, which is at a fixed 45 degree angle, so no wear. It only tilts when they would dismantle the booms for transpirt on a flatbed rail car. The socket is on the turntable that swings left and right. The dipper boom is the one that pivots up and down with every scoop, and that joint is open to let debris fall through.

Understood Chris - thanks for the explanation.

Simon.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 18, 2018, 10:30:22 PM
You would think that the socket that those caps fit into would get showered with grit and every time the boom was raised or lowered it would wear badly?

Simon.
That socket is at the base of the main boom, which is at a fixed 45 degree angle, so no wear. It only tilts when they would dismantle the booms for transpirt on a flatbed rail car. The socket is on the turntable that swings left and right. The dipper boom is the one that pivots up and down with every scoop, and that joint is open to let debris fall through.

Understood Chris - thanks for the explanation.

Simon.
No problem - this is a huge machine, many many parts - I have to refer back to the photos constantly myself on details.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 18, 2018, 10:31:03 PM
Those caps are great!  Very nice looking boom for sure, Chris, can't wait to see it all together. But I'm sure it won't be too long with you're alternate timeline  :Lol:
Kim
Yeah, fine for you, I have to take the long way around!   :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 19, 2018, 05:02:54 PM
The plate at the bottom of the boom is made and installed, finishes off the bottom section.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3xr6vqgdz/IMG_2201.jpg)
Now on to the other small bits on the boom. Or maybe the chain sheaves, haven't decided...  :thinking:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 19, 2018, 05:37:08 PM
Looking at the stock supply, and the size of the four chain sheaves (2" max OD), looks like they are going to be made from the chunk of 2-1/4" diameter 12L14 steel bar that is sitting on the shelf - was the left over from making the outer tires on the Shay locomotive. It's long enough to get all 4 parts out, including room to saw them apart and clean up the faces again....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 19, 2018, 07:18:59 PM
Got a start roughing out the chain sheaves - first two are thicker, they will be the ones at the end of the main boom, where the chain fall goes down to the dipper bucket, they have an extra lip on the sides that the two top guide sheaves do not.
Centered up the chunk of 12L14 round bar, and turned the end down to 2" diameter - the bar is too large to fit over the cross slide on the Sherline, so I'm cutting one sheave blank at a time (the step on the chuck jaws is slightly less than the distance to the center slot, so it will be easy to align the blanks tight against the chuck later).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/crmoqivaf/IMG_2202.jpg)
After turning the diameter, used a hacksaw to start a slot against the shoulder, then took the bar up to the big bench vise and finished the cut with a metal cutting blade in the recip saw, then rechucked the bar. Parting it in the lathe is beyond the reach and power of the Sherline.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/u4wz5i8mv/IMG_2203.jpg)
Here is the blank, showing where it will go on the end of the boom when it is finished. There will be two sheaves side by side there, to give the mechaincal advantage on the chain fall (chain goes up boom, down around pulley on bucket, back up and down again to end at the top of the pully on the bucket).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rnl7y4eev/IMG_2204.jpg)
One blank down, three more to go...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on March 19, 2018, 10:42:04 PM
This build is WAY COOL Chris.   :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 19, 2018, 11:15:12 PM
This build is WAY COOL Chris.   :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:


Thanks Craig, nice to have you along for the ride into the quarry!


This afternoon I've got the other 3 blanks cut to diameter, amd have started trimming tuem to thickness. So far look like some industrial strength hockey pucks.


Also I've been haunting ebay and have scored some more steam shovel and dredge catalogs from the early 1900's, amazing how much detail they include, bragging about the features and technology in their products. Same as modern car brochures, but these are 100+ pages each. I'm gathering notes from them, from patents, etc for the history of Marion and this shovel for another article series and/or book. About ready to start outlining the history and technology in the shovels, lots to cover.
In another month will be giving a presentation as part of the launch they are doing at the historical society for the fundraising for restoration of the shovel, hopefully work can start this spring. It will be a long but interesting journey!

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: J.L. on March 20, 2018, 03:02:29 PM
Chris, every time I drop in to have a peek at your build, I have to pick my jaw up off the floor!

It must be so safisfying to be building something that has such meaning for you when you can actually see the real thing and research its history.

Truely a labour of love.

What a project!

Cheers...John
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 20, 2018, 03:42:49 PM
Chris, every time I drop in to have a peek at your build, I have to pick my jaw up off the floor!

It must be so safisfying to be building something that has such meaning for you when you can actually see the real thing and research its history.

Truely a labour of love.

What a project!

Cheers...John
Thanks very much John! It is quite different to have the work on both the real machine and the model, a very interesting journey.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 20, 2018, 04:04:07 PM
Got the four blanks trimmed to thickness this morning, then drilled a starter hole in each and bored the centers out for the axles. The two at the end of the boom get a 3/4" axle, the two that are guides on top of the boom get 1/2" axles - each was bored a few thou under size so I can take a skim cut on the bar stock for the axles and get a tight fit.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7ek27knxj/IMG_2206.jpg)
Then the recess was cut in each side, to form the lip at the outside edge.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/jgfg1q4vr/IMG_2207.jpg)
All four were taken to that stage - you can see two are thicker, and have a larger axle hole.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/npk63wfuv/IMG_2208.jpg)
Next step is to cut the slot for the vertical links of the chain into the center of each wheel.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gz3ouh0ev/IMG_2209.jpg)
Still need to cut the slots in the other three, then do some more trimming on the inside of the wheels.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on March 20, 2018, 07:12:21 PM
Chris:

I know that if I looked back thru the 59 pages of this thread that I could find the answer myself, but I'm not that ambitious - so I'll just ask.  Regarding the chain sheaves, the vertical chain links will ride in the slot that you've cut in the sheave.  Will the horizontal chain links ride in pockets, or will they just wrap around the outside of the sheave?

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 20, 2018, 07:43:56 PM
Chris:

I know that if I looked back thru the 59 pages of this thread that I could find the answer myself, but I'm not that ambitious - so I'll just ask.  Regarding the chain sheaves, the vertical chain links will ride in the slot that you've cut in the sheave.  Will the horizontal chain links ride in pockets, or will they just wrap around the outside of the sheave?

Don
Yeah, its back a few pages someplace, the horizontal links just lay flat on the surface of the rim, no pockets. They are not needed since the sheaves are not driving or being driven by the chain, they are just freewheeling like the sheaves on a rope pulley. Makes my job a whole lot easier!


By contrast, the chains on a cuckoo clock need to drive the shaft, so those fit in pockets on the sheave, complicated to machine and depend on a specific length link.


I just finished making the hub shafts for the sheaves, and loctited them in place, photos later when it has cured up and can be handled without risk of moving the shafts.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 20, 2018, 08:17:46 PM
This afternoon got the rest of the slots cut in the rims of the chain sheaves, and turned the centers of the sides back to the dished profile:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/50b0p22lj/IMG_2210.jpg)
Here are the sheaves set about where they will be on the main boom - the two at the tip hold the fall to the bucket pulley, the other two hold the chain above the top of the main boom and guide it to the other pulleys.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/875k8ofbr/IMG_2213.jpg)
Next step was to make the axle hubs - lots less material to remove and easier to shape by making these seperately from the rims. The centers are drilled for some bronze bushings to be made next. After turning the hubs, they were held in place with some loctite retaining compound.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xpxwlpebb/IMG_2214.jpg)
The hubs on the two sheaves that go on the top of the boom are offset from center, since the chain has to angle from the center of the boom over to one side to line up with the right hand sheave at the tip.
Next up - make the bronze bushings...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 21, 2018, 05:02:19 PM
Last couple of steps on the chain sheaves for the main boom - got some bronze bushings turned/drilled and loctited in, then drilled the holes around the perimeter of the two top ones (not sure why they are there, but the original has them).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7t4qfz987/IMG_2215.jpg)
So the sheaves are all made, ready for the support brackets and axles.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xbx2szl2f/IMG_2216.jpg)
I noticed that they were starting to rust already, so got a coat of the bake-on epoxy paint on them this morning. The 12L14 turns very nicely, but is very prone to a light surface rust, which is why I don't get it anymore. This piece was leftover from the sheels on the Shay model, had to clearcoat them to prevent the rust.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/u52j9dg1z/IMG_2217.jpg)
Next is the support plates that hold the top sheaves, which hold the chain above the boom, visible in the left of this photo:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/61brlbi87/DSC_5043.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: b.lindsey on March 21, 2018, 06:46:57 PM
looking good Chris and still following along even if quietly :)

Bill
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 21, 2018, 08:05:28 PM
looking good Chris and still following along even if quietly :)

Bill
Better quietly than standing behind me and jingling the change in your pocket like a salesman!!   :lolb:


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dan Rowe on March 21, 2018, 09:24:29 PM
Looking good Chris.
Are we going to see some micro forging for the brace rods and U bolt eyes?

Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 21, 2018, 09:27:14 PM
Looking good Chris.
Are we going to see some micro forging for the brace rods and U bolt eyes?

Dan
Don't know, have not thought that far ahead - got a small anvil, though finding teensy lumps of coal may take a few days...! Have to see how many cookies the shop elves will charge me to outsource it to their forge...

 :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dan Rowe on March 21, 2018, 10:28:40 PM
Chris coal would work but I was thinking something like this:
http://www.anvilfire.com/article.php?bodyName=/21centbs/forges/microfrg.htm

I have thought about a few times for some of the forged Shay brake rods.

Dan

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 22, 2018, 12:51:39 AM
Chris coal would work but I was thinking something like this:
http://www.anvilfire.com/article.php?bodyName=/21centbs/forges/microfrg.htm (http://www.anvilfire.com/article.php?bodyName=/21centbs/forges/microfrg.htm)

I have thought about a few times for some of the forged Shay brake rods.

Dan
That's pretty slick. Fired from my Sievert torch, would be able to handle anything I am likely to make. Hmmm....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Chester on March 22, 2018, 04:17:29 AM
Chris, I am quietly looking on in awe, what a great job you are doing. I was just up in your neck of the woods this weekend dropping the young lad off at college (RIT) and I was thinking about you on the trip up. I whipped the phone out and shared your adventure with my son and his roommate. Coming from the coal region of Pa, I’ve had the opportunity to get into a few of the Marion shovels around here and they are an impressive piece of equipment. Nothing as old and historic as your steam shovel but the 7400 and 7800 draglines are interesting to get a ride in. My dad worked in the industry and got me in a few times when I was younger .
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 22, 2018, 11:26:23 AM
Chris, I am quietly looking on in awe, what a great job you are doing. I was just up in your neck of the woods this weekend dropping the young lad off at college (RIT) and I was thinking about you on the trip up. I whipped the phone out and shared your adventure with my son and his roommate. Coming from the coal region of Pa, I’ve had the opportunity to get into a few of the Marion shovels around here and they are an impressive piece of equipment. Nothing as old and historic as your steam shovel but the 7400 and 7800 draglines are interesting to get a ride in. My dad worked in the industry and got me in a few times when I was younger .
Many moons ago I attended RIT myself, the school has grown quite a bit since those days. I envy your trips into those big shovels, impressive machines!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 22, 2018, 04:30:01 PM
Moving on with the chain sheaves, rough cut the side panels for the stands, then clamped them together to mill the edges to shape and drill the mounting holes. Clamping them together ensured that they all match. The panels bolt to some 1/4" angle stock on the bottoms, and the bearing blocks at the top.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/az3kutn87/IMG_2221.jpg)
Here are a couple shots of the sheaves all in position. Still need to shape the tops of the bearing caps, and make the end plates/cotters for the ones at the end of the boom. The chain is laid across the sheaves to show how it all works - the bottom sheave (on the left in the photo) is centered to guide the chain from the center of the turntable, the next one over is shifted to the side to guide the chain onto the first pulley on the tip of the boom.  Looking forward to getting enough done to set it all in place!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fxr39d6gn/IMG_2225.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/z2ucj4dev/IMG_2226.jpg)
Next up is to shape down the bearing caps around the axles.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Swarf Maker on March 22, 2018, 05:31:16 PM
What an absolutely stunning piece of work this is. The Lombard was also superb and I know that you are a stickler for accuracy. Thus I am very reluctant to point out that the top sheave in your photo of the full size machine has 3 holes - not 4. Hate me if you must!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 22, 2018, 05:57:51 PM
What an absolutely stunning piece of work this is. The Lombard was also superb and I know that you are a stickler for accuracy. Thus I am very reluctant to point out that the top sheave in your photo of the full size machine has 3 holes - not 4. Hate me if you must!
Huh. Missed that one! Suppose I could plug and re-drill, not sure if it is worth it though. Maybe I can blame it on the shop elves?!   :Lol:

Just recieved a 1909 copy of the Marion steam shovel catalog that I found on Ebay, absolute ton of information in it, even has cross sections of the sheaves and throttles. More reading to do...

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on March 23, 2018, 03:57:09 AM
Chris,
 Sounds like you are going to have to punish the elves for making a mistake like that!
Don’t with hold cookies though, they may go on strike!

The boom just gets better and better!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 23, 2018, 06:17:06 PM
What an absolutely stunning piece of work this is. The Lombard was also superb and I know that you are a stickler for accuracy. Thus I am very reluctant to point out that the top sheave in your photo of the full size machine has 3 holes - not 4. Hate me if you must!
Thanks for pointing that one out - turns out I needed to pull the sheaves again for other work, so I plugged three of the holes in each and drilled two new ones in the right place - that would have bugged me later on if I found out then.
   :cheers:

Chris,
 Sounds like you are going to have to punish the elves for making a mistake like that!
Don’t with hold cookies though, they may go on strike!

The boom just gets better and better!

Cheers Kerrin
Well, tried blaming them, but they pulled up the shop security video and showed it was me who did it. Sigh...  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 23, 2018, 06:32:48 PM
Catching up with the pictures from yesterday and today - I made up the top caps for the bearing blocks yesterday afternoon, same technique as before, except since the parts are small, I used a thin piece of rod to space it from the axle hole, which left enough low down to grip in the vise. As long as the rod it touching the 'top' of the hole, at whatever angle the part is at, this works fine.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xbb0z1uw7/IMG_2227.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/pikd72h7b/IMG_2228.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/f8hy7tjlz/IMG_2229.jpg)
Finished caps in place:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/h0ax2qq47/IMG_2230.jpg)
On the original, the axle would be fixed in the sheave, and turn in the bearing block. On the model, since aligning the blocks to that degree of accuracy would be a lot harder (and given the little bit of flex the thin upright has), I decided to have the axle clamped in the blocks, and the sheaves spin on their own bearings on the axle. The end behavior is the same, and this is more robust for the model.

The next parts up are the bails that hold the end of the support rods from the A-frame top cap. These rods keep the boom at a 45 degree angle, and while they look like cables with eye splices in the ends, they were actually forged out of one bar (not sure of the alloy, the catalogs mention it is a fibrous crystal structure in the iron/steel that allow some give). These bails bolt through the end of the boom near the sheaves. I tried bending them up, but could not get a good curve in the end by the bolts, so decided to piece them up from a larger brass rod and thinner steel rod. The steel was bent over a 3/8" rod to get the curve, then the legs were cut to length. They were then silver soldered into holes in the brass bar:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/f8hy7yosn/IMG_2362.jpg)
After cleaning up the flux and sawing the two lengths of bar apart, put them in the chuck on the rotary table, and milled the shape in the ends under the rod - the mill ran just up to the steel bar, so an inside cirve was left there:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/q835jkunb/IMG_2364.jpg)
After both ends of each bar were done the same way, the centers were cut out of the brass with a hacksaw, leaving this:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/j4va3z4nb/IMG_2365.jpg)
A little clean up with a file, and they were bolted onto the boom - they will come off again later to insert the eye of the rod back to the A-frame over the bail.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/nqrecbxw7/IMG_2366.jpg)
After plugging and redrilling the three holes in the top sheaves, here is the current set of parts:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/pvbrdf78n/IMG_2371.jpg)
I've started laying out the parts for the A-frame stay rods - they will be pieced up in a similar way.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Gas_mantle on March 23, 2018, 06:53:00 PM
Looks great Chris  :)

I dread to think how many nuts and bolts you have needed
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 23, 2018, 07:01:48 PM
Looks great Chris  :)

I dread to think how many nuts and bolts you have needed
There are over 250 studs in the main boom, about 400 nuts. So far...!  :o

Thats why I bought the bundles of threaded rod, I'd be going (even more) crazy  :insane: threading all that rod stock. Same for the nuts, bought a big bag of 2-56 small pattern nuts.

The main boom is the biggest user of nuts and bolts in the whole model, way more than the dipper boom. If they had made it from one large casting it wouldn't have had them all, but the fact that they bolted up a steel shell around a white oak core for all the booms really upped the count!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dan Rowe on March 23, 2018, 07:22:29 PM
not sure of the alloy, the catalogs mention it is a fibrous crystal structure in the iron/steel that allow some give

Chris, that description sounds like wrought iron which was the common material used for that type of forging in that era.

Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 23, 2018, 09:01:14 PM
not sure of the alloy, the catalogs mention it is a fibrous crystal structure in the iron/steel that allow some give

Chris, that description sounds like wrought iron which was the common material used for that type of forging in that era.

Dan
Probably something like that. In the 1909 catalog they talk a lot about having their own iron and steel production, open hearth, converters, and mention that they have several of there own special alloys for many parts (chain and dipper especially), but no details of what those alloys are. Their 25 acre factory complex would have been an amazing place to tour! Like so many, its all gone now, last of it closed up in the 90's when Bucyrus bought them out.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 23, 2018, 11:46:21 PM
Made up the ends for the stays that run from the bails on the main boom back to the A-frame. On the original these were forged all in one piece with the stay, but for the model I am piecing them up. Started with some brass flat bar, drilled for the end opening and a small second hole at the end, and bolted them to the rotary table to shape the outside edges. Ran passes down the outside to do the straight sections, 10 degrees either side of center, then ran around the large end with the rotary table.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5s1scby47/IMG_2369.jpg)
Then over to the bench vise, and cut in the V opening with a small hacksaw blade.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gevlhqyjr/IMG_2372.jpg)
Trimmed off the narrow ends to get rid of the small hole used to hold it in the mill, and drilled the ends to take the stay rod.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qc6matll3/IMG_2374.jpg)
Some filing and sanding, and ready to silver solder them to the rods. I am only doing one end at this point, I want to wait to do the second end to get the exact length when the A-frame and turntable are ready - way too many parts in between to build up tolerances for me to assume that I'll get the length perfect from the plans! So, I'll do one end now and finish it up later.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5fae65v9z/IMG_2375.jpg)
After silver soldering, took it to the belt sander to blend in the ends of the brass to the rods.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/aqpaqvp2f/IMG_2376.jpg)
Looking good, on to the next parts!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: vcutajar on March 24, 2018, 01:29:50 PM
Quote
Looking good

Looking extra good.

Vince
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 90LX_Notch on March 24, 2018, 05:38:58 PM
Wow Chris, l haven't checked in for some time.  Unbelievable work and progress.  Your builds always amaze me.

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 24, 2018, 07:08:40 PM
Thanks Bob/Vince, nice to see you down here in the quarry!

Number of little fiddly-bits on the main boom this afternoon, variety of steps on the side, drilling/tapping holes in the sheave holder that the crowd engine throttle lever will attach to, and also the hole for the bucket door release rope.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xdmmxamuf/IMG_2378.jpg)
Coming down to the last parts before I start on the turntable and A-frame, the bearing blocks that hold the shipper shaft (not sure where that name comes from, its the axle that the gears driven from the crowd engine sit on, that drive the dipper boom in and out). After that is the large gears that are on that axle outboard of the ones moving the dipper gear rack, and the curved guards that go around them.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/pyxb4r0x3/Bearing_Blocks.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: sco on March 24, 2018, 09:03:47 PM
Just watched a couple of videos of steam shovels to see how the dipper boom worked - operator had to be pretty skilled to coordinate the in/out up/down motion of the bucket.

Simon.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 24, 2018, 09:53:37 PM
Just watched a couple of videos of steam shovels to see how the dipper boom worked - operator had to be pretty skilled to coordinate the in/out up/down motion of the bucket.

Simon.
On ones of this type there were two operators for digging, one did the hoist and swing of the bucket, the other one (out on the turntable at the base of the main boom) controlled the crowd engine, running the bucket in and out. Must have been quite a skill to have the two guys work as one, the experienced ones worked quite quickly. The one on the turntable also pulled the rope to dump the load from the bucket.

In Marion's catalog, they talk about how the up/down, left/right, and in/out motions were controlled by a single lever each on their machines, since the internal valves on the swing and crowd engines controlled BOTH speed and direction with one lever, and the hoist engine had a bypass so pushing the throttle lever back all the way would vent the cylinders, letting them freewheel, and letting the operator lower the bucket without having to move the clutch or brake levers. Very clever stuff - with two levers, the main operator could raise/lower and swing the boom side to side, and with one lever the second operator could run the dipper boom in and out.

I had this little animation on an earlier post, here it is again:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4sfitovfb/Marion_Animation.gif)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 25, 2018, 02:00:20 AM
Got a start on the bearing blocks tonight - split a length of 3/8" x 1-14/" stainless down the middle to get the blanks, squared them up, and traced out a cardstock template of the outline. This outline is not a critical shape, so I am not going to get too picky on the milling, going for fair curves and as close as I can get to the dimensions. The important dimension is the total height to the center of the shaft. Since milling a block to a shape like this can allow the manufacturing stresses in the metal to cause some bending down the length (which it did slightly when splitting the block), I left the blanks 50 thou tall till the curves were cut in.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/cielah3yv/IMG_2380.jpg)
Then back over to the (you guessed it) trusty tooling plate on the rotary table, where the blanks were clamped down with a piece of cardstock underneath to give the end mill clearance to the table. Then, hogged off the majority of the metal in straight passes, then did a series of finer cuts with the rotary table to mill in the inner curve, blending that out to the straight outer ends with a little Etcha-Sketch action.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/cielahbon/IMG_2383.jpg)
After doing both blanks, here is the blocks so far, set next to the row of bolts that they will sit on:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/emyybkl13/IMG_2385.jpg)
Its impossible to tell on the real machine how they handled the bolts under the block, whether they flush countersunk them like on the dipper boom, inlet them into the bottom of these blocks with notches, or drilled/tapped the bottom of the blocks to use the through-bolts to help hold them down. I am going to go with the last option, and add a set of studs at the outer ends between the through-bolts.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: sco on March 25, 2018, 06:12:56 AM
Just watched a couple of videos of steam shovels to see how the dipper boom worked - operator had to be pretty skilled to coordinate the in/out up/down motion of the bucket.

Simon.
On ones of this type there were two operators for digging, one did the hoist and swing of the bucket, the other one (out on the turntable at the base of the main boom) controlled the crowd engine, running the bucket in and out. Must have been quite a skill to have the two guys work as one, the experienced ones worked quite quickly. The one on the turntable also pulled the rope to dump the load from the bucket.

In Marion's catalog, they talk about how the up/down, left/right, and in/out motions were controlled by a single lever each on their machines, since the internal valves on the swing and crowd engines controlled BOTH speed and direction with one lever, and the hoist engine had a bypass so pushing the throttle lever back all the way would vent the cylinders, letting them freewheel, and letting the operator lower the bucket without having to move the clutch or brake levers. Very clever stuff - with two levers, the main operator could raise/lower and swing the boom side to side, and with one lever the second operator could run the dipper boom in and out.

I had this little animation on an earlier post, here it is again:
(https://s5.postimg.org/4sfitovfb/Marion_Animation.gif)

Missed that animation first time round Chris but it shows well the motion of the bucket.  In the labelled CAD picture you showed a couple of posts ago is there a bit missing that keeps the boom rack in mesh with the gear - in some of the videos some of the shovals seemed to have a hoop over the boom to control the gear mesh.  This bit;

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on March 25, 2018, 07:19:41 AM
Yep, missing the holder-downer part....

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 25, 2018, 01:11:08 PM
.....

....

Missed that animation first time round Chris but it shows well the motion of the bucket.  In the labelled CAD picture you showed a couple of posts ago is there a bit missing that keeps the boom rack in mesh with the gear - in some of the videos some of the shovals seemed to have a hoop over the boom to control the gear mesh.  This bit;

That hold-down part is not part of the design for the Marion shovels. The one in that picture shows the dipper booms on the outside of the one piece solid main boom so they needed that upside-down U shape to connect everything. On the Marion shovels the main boom has a gap in the center that the dipper booms are in and the connector is in the center. Here is what the equivalent piece in the Marion looks like:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/d5397b7cn/Yoke_Block.jpg)
It has the axle for the gears at the bottom and the plate at the top rides along the dipper boom. That presses the gear into the rack. Same end result but done with a part down the center rather than the outside. Here is another view of the Marion assembly, with the near-side parts removed to show the center:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xrovzdhlj/Cross_section.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: sco on March 25, 2018, 04:27:15 PM
Makes sense Chris - thanks for explaining that detail.

Simon.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on March 25, 2018, 05:36:23 PM
Ah ha! Very neatly placed in the center. Nice.

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 25, 2018, 05:42:30 PM
Ah ha! Very neatly placed in the center. Nice.

Pete
One of the books shows 6 or 8 different basic arrangements for the dipper connection to the main boom, many makers, many inventions!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 26, 2018, 12:27:09 AM
Wrapping up the bearing blocks this afternoon - cut the top caps from some 3/8" square stock, drilled/tapped the holes to mount them to the bases, and drilled the axle bearing holes.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4bx5wezqf/IMG_2386.jpg)
Made up the bronze bearings, had them project out from the blocks slightly to give the gears something to rub against. With the axle in place to align the blocks to each other, held the blocks on top of the booms and marked where the vertical bolts came up - drilled/tapped matching holes in the blocks, plus an extra one at the end.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4bx5wf7g7/IMG_2387.jpg)
Here is the two blocks bolted into the boom, using the end bolts and the four through bolts in the boom underneath. Things aligned pretty well, just needed one thin shim on one side to get the axle to line up freely.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wc19gpimf/IMG_2388.jpg)
Then milled the caps down, just like on the previous ones, and bolted them down. The small gears needed a little trimming on the sander to get the whole assembly to fit between the bearing blocks. This photo shows the traveling yoke that the dipper boom slides through, holding the gear rack on the bottom of the boom in mesh with the small gears that move it - same as in the rendering from the 3D model in the previous post.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5e7cezdev/IMG_2389.jpg)
And here is a family shot of all the parts:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/h3bc2xwnr/IMG_2390.jpg)
I'd like to put the booms together for a shot, but it is quite awkward to try and hold the main boom to slide in the dipper, then get all the bolts on the yoke shaft back in. I think that will wait a bit till I can get the turntable base made, all these parts are over 10 pounds so far and it gets tricky to handle them all together.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on March 26, 2018, 05:55:42 AM
Wow, that is a great bit of work! That is a true masterpiece.

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on March 26, 2018, 01:47:18 PM
So it seems that the dipper can be moved to either side of the boom, and that's the reason for the two pulleys?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 26, 2018, 02:10:46 PM
So it seems that the dipper can be moved to either side of the boom, and that's the reason for the two pulleys?
Not sure what you mean by either side?  The two top pulleys route the chain above the boom and the crowd engine which will sit on top of the boom. The chain runs through the gap in the dipper boom as it goes in/out and pivots on the axle just added. The dipper boom only sits in the center space in the main boom, never to either side on the Marion shovels.


I have come up with a plan to make a temporary base for the boom so I can set it up, photos later today after its made...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 26, 2018, 04:02:28 PM
Okay, the temporary base for the boom assembly is made, worked out quite well as a extra couple sets of hands for assembling the booms for testing. The bottom left block has a cross pin for the hole in the base caps, and the right block holds the main boom up at its 45 degree angle - both blocks are glued and screwed in from the bottom of the base since there is a lot of force on them.
So, here is a shot with the dipper boom about halfway out:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/h9phpfpbb/IMG_2391.jpg)
and with the dipper boom most of the way in:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5xcw7obhj/IMG_2398.jpg)
Shot from above showing how the dipper boom sits inside the main boom, and the hoist chain comes back down the center of the dipper handle:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dq3jzn9qv/IMG_2393.jpg)
View from behind showing the gear rack, small drive gears, and the yoke block in the center that holds the dipper handle. Still to make are the two large gears that go on the outside ends of the axle.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/j1igkco3r/IMG_2395.jpg)
Front view of all that:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3ssj6kmpj/IMG_2397.jpg)
You can see in the last shot how the wood core blocks are cut back to allow the dipper to swing from past straight down to above horizontal.

I better lock up the shop tonight, those shop elves will get drunk on a thinblefull of beer and start riding the bucket up and down!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on March 26, 2018, 04:32:12 PM
My bad.  Didn't realize the dipper was split down the middle from looking at your drawing.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 26, 2018, 04:53:23 PM
My bad.  Didn't realize the dipper was split down the middle from looking at your drawing.
Yeah, its hard to see what's connected to what with all the stacked up parts. I have a list of photo angles I want to get next time I go out to the real one, thousands of pics and still am missing details!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Gas_mantle on March 26, 2018, 05:11:34 PM
Very impressive work Chris  :)

At that size it is almost capable of performing real work.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 26, 2018, 09:44:47 PM
Very impressive work Chris  :)

At that size it is almost capable of performing real work.
At least scoop flour and chips for the next batch o cookies!  Mmmmmm.... cookies.... 
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: RJH on March 26, 2018, 11:55:11 PM
It's looking great Chris, I look in daily to see what's new.
Are you going to mount the support bails on the upper end of the boom with a large pin like the real one?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 27, 2018, 12:42:44 AM
It's looking great Chris, I look in daily to see what's new.
Are you going to mount the support bails on the upper end of the boom with a large pin like the real one?
It will get a washer plate, as will the end sheave axle to simulate the look. Its hard to tell how the real ones were on the inside, doubt they will let me take it apart!   :o   Wish I could find a spare parts book for one this old, they are out there for the ones in the 50's and 60's. The Lombard hauler had one, that helped a lot.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 27, 2018, 12:50:02 AM
Wow.  :o That's all I can say, is, Wow.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 27, 2018, 01:23:42 AM
Wow.  :o That's all I can say, is, Wow.


Hi Carl!  Good to hear from you again.  Back on the Stanley topic, found out one of the guys I shoot with has an original Locomobile engine, couple replaced parts but it runs on compressed air. Still working on getting him to sell it to me. Maybe next time he needs money for parts on his model t or corvair...


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on March 27, 2018, 07:44:59 AM
Looking good Chris, how’s the elve party going? You better find there planning board, or put out cookie piles to keep there minds off mischief!

Oh Sunday, at my mates place playing White steam cars! Friday it had been going great, Sunday, well no! So back to the drawing board to see what we can figure out what’s changed. Trouble shooting hot steam cars is fun, lots of coffee while you wait for them to cool down enuff so you can try plan b, or c or d.......

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steam Haulage on March 27, 2018, 09:35:13 AM
Hi Chris, The HCEA has masses of detailed information in their archive. Which includes the 'Marion PowerShovel Company Archive'.
Being a few thousand miles away I'm not in a position to visit their Museum for myself but from whatI hear you may be able to find the detail you need. There might even be a member who has the information.  A recent article in 'Equipment Echoes' magazine by Don Franz the editor, whose father had been a craneman on the Marion 91 Panama shovel in the France quarry in Waterville Ohio.
The HCEA phone is(419)352-5616. Perhaps a call might be worthwhile?
Jerry
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 27, 2018, 06:37:49 PM
Hi Chris, The HCEA has masses of detailed information in their archive. Which includes the 'Marion PowerShovel Company Archive'.
Being a few thousand miles away I'm not in a position to visit their Museum for myself but from whatI hear you may be able to find the detail you need. There might even be a member who has the information.  A recent article in 'Equipment Echoes' magazine by Don Franz the editor, whose father had been a craneman on the Marion 91 Panama shovel in the France quarry in Waterville Ohio.
The HCEA phone is(419)352-5616. Perhaps a call might be worthwhile?
Jerry
I have been through the listings of those archives, for the early years it appears that what they have are patent documents and sales brochures and such, all in very poor condition (dirty, brittle) waiting to be photocopied. For the early years, does not sound like they have much I have not seen elsewhere. The Marion County historical society got the other half of the old company documents. I've been in touch with them a few times, things are not organized but I may stop in there on my way out to Indiana this summer and see what I can find. Both places got boxes of documents when the company was shut down in the 90s by Bucyrus - by then, as in many old companies, early records were mostly missing as irrelevant to current operations. Same thing happened at Kodak - we had a museum room full of old cameras and products, and during the bankruptcy shutdown of the camera division, they were just giving the stuff away to anyone interested in a souvineer! For companies like Marion, every time they went through a building move, merger, or buyout, truckloads of stuff would be tossed that we would kill for today!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 27, 2018, 06:39:53 PM
Looking good Chris, how’s the elve party going? You better find there planning board, or put out cookie piles to keep there minds off mischief!

Oh Sunday, at my mates place playing White steam cars! Friday it had been going great, Sunday, well no! So back to the drawing board to see what we can figure out what’s changed. Trouble shooting hot steam cars is fun, lots of coffee while you wait for them to cool down enuff so you can try plan b, or c or d.......

Cheers Kerrin
It was not too bad, the cops only showed up once...   :lolb:

Sounds like great fun with the steam cars, when are you going to drive one way over here (you can do laps of the ships deck while crossing the oceans) for us to play with??  Glad you guys are keeping them active and preserved!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 27, 2018, 10:41:31 PM
Today got a start on the large gears which drive the dipper boom in and out, driven by the crowd engine. Strted by cutting a pair of discs (left slightly oversize) out of some 1/4" x 4" 360 brass bar:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/50l7uo1qv/IMG_2399.jpg)
which was drilled in the center for the axle, bolted to a centered arbor in the 4-jaw, then 3 more bolts added out in the areas where the spoke cutouts will be, to prevent the gear from turning on the arbor and ruining the gear (had that happen in the past, did not want to risk wasting these big chunks). Once on the rotary table, the discs were trued up to final diameter with an end mill.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xdgpl4frb/IMG_2403.jpg)
Then the rotary table was moved to its vertical position, and the gear cutter (module 1) centered by sighting it on the axle hole.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4nttoh41j/IMG_2404.jpg)
Moved back out to the rim, moved in till the cutter was just touching the disc, then moved in for the depth of the teeth and started cutting all 86 teeth on each disc. I pre-calculate the rotab moves in a spreadsheet, with the results rounded to tenth of a degree, then print that out and tick off each move as they are made to ensure that I dont skip one. Still, with this many to cut, it takes focus to keep track of all the moves.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/aorilkliv/IMG_2406.jpg)
Here is one of the gears held up to the main boom to show where it will go:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gcxtcgi5j/IMG_2408.jpg)
With all the teeth cut on both gears the rotary table was laid back down horizontally to cut the spokes. The spokes on these are fairly narrow and are tapered, narrower at the rim. Using the 3D model the angles and distances were found for all the corners of the spoke openings, assuming a 1/8" drill and mill will be used. The corners will be squared off with a file later. So, went through the list of angles and distances to drill the inner and outer corner holes, and drew in the outlines of the spokes to aid in keeping track of where the waste is during milling, since with this many holes it looks like a random pattern withouth the lines.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5q4071x5j/IMG_2409.jpg)
Then, on to the actual spoke cutting. I like to work from the rim back in to the center to avoid any flexing in the part (not that big a problem in a thick gear like this, but its my habit). So, started by roughing in the arcs between each spoke - made the first cut just inside the finished edge since these thin end mills will flex slightly when making a through cut in thick material. In this photo, all 6 openings were roughed in, and the two on the right were taken out to final dimension with a series of light passes.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/z59og29ev/IMG_2411.jpg)
Four more to go on that gear, then the same on the other gear, and it will be ready for the next step in shaping the spokes - thinning the edge between that arc and the bottom of the teeth to form the rim.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on March 28, 2018, 01:57:04 AM
Dog, dog you are the man! I missed some days here but geeez man your moving like a freight train through this thing. A well planned model and some of the best damn craftmanship yet. Great fabrication work just jaw dropping. Love how you planned the gears Chris well though out bud.  :praise2:


Don  :drinking-41:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 28, 2018, 02:03:49 AM
Dog, dog you are the man! I missed some days here but geeez man your moving like a freight train through this thing. A well planned model and some of the best damn craftmanship yet. Great fabrication work just jaw dropping. Love how you planned the gears Chris well though out bud.  :praise2:


Don  :drinking-41:


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steam Haulage on March 28, 2018, 08:40:11 AM
Hi Chris,
Thanks for the information on the HCEA and other archives. Seems as though our immediate forefathers were keener on tidiness than on history, no matter which country or continent is involved. Amazingly the only thing for which there seems to be any adequate record is the period from 1939 to 1945. Perhaps by 1950 they were wanting to put the past behind them

Maginificent work on the Marion 91; as others have said youir rate of progress is amazing.  Cookies seem to help but your progress can't only be down to their consumption.
I'm still working on the drawings for the 19-RB, the development in shovels between 1910 and 1945 seems to have added to the complexity of the engineering.

Jerry :old:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 28, 2018, 01:46:42 PM
Hi Chris,
Thanks for the information on the HCEA and other archives. Seems as though our immediate forefathers were keener on tidiness than on history, no matter which country or continent is involved. Amazingly the only thing for which there seems to be any adequate record is the period from 1939 to 1945. Perhaps by 1950 they were wanting to put the past behind them

Maginificent work on the Marion 91; as others have said youir rate of progress is amazing.  Cookies seem to help but your progress can't only be down to their consumption.
I'm still working on the drawings for the 19-RB, the development in shovels between 1910 and 1945 seems to have added to the complexity of the engineering.

Jerry :old:
Have you found good detail on the 19-RB, found one to measure maybe?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on March 28, 2018, 02:02:02 PM
Chris--Amazing work as usual. A quick question about your gear cutting picture. Do you lower the cutter until it is completely thru the part before you start milling the curved slots, or do you do it in a number of small depth cuts over and over until you are thru?---Brian
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steam Haulage on March 28, 2018, 03:09:59 PM
If only.

I have just had medical advice that I can no longer drive and to surrender my driving licence. I've been diabetic for almost fifty years and have been lucky to have been able to drive for all that time. Old age.

The nearest to me is at Threlkeld quarry museum but that is almost impossible to get to by public transport. Might get one of the step children to drive me there once the weather improves.

I have been able to get a lot of R-B publications, including the spec. that the UK military used duting WWII. Most useful, and containing almost all the dimensions I need is the parts and assembly manual for the 19RB. The spec and manual give enough dimensions to be able to derive the actual sizes as built when associated with the large numbers of photos and videos I have collected. In doing the Inventor modelling I decided to do full paramentric so that I can (hopefully) make amendments when (if) I get a chance to have a measuring session(s) with a full size machine.
Some of the info. has come from the HCEA as the 19RB and the 19B apparently were built to the Bucyrus 19B drawings.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 28, 2018, 03:26:12 PM
Chris--Amazing work as usual. A quick question about your gear cutting picture. Do you lower the cutter until it is completely thru the part before you start milling the curved slots, or do you do it in a number of small depth cuts over and over until you are thru?---Brian

On these arcs I lowered the cutter right through (brand new cutter, nice and sharp) and then slowly rotated the table through the arc. Then cranked it back the other way, and saw it take more out of the one side, could see how much it had pulled the cutter in one direction on the first pass. I'm sure that taking several shallower cuts would have reduced this, but since the entire inside of the 'pie' would be removed anyway, no concern about the thickness of the kerf removed, and this was quicker. This is 360 brass, so it cuts nice and smooth - on aluminum I would have mad several passes to prevent clogging. After that initial pass, did a couple more about 20 thou each to get out to the final dimension on the arc.

This morning I've gotten the rest of the arcs cut, and have started in on shaping the inner edge of the rim with a ball end mill - pics to come after lunch...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 28, 2018, 07:57:57 PM
More on the spoke-ification process this afternoon. Milled the depth of the spokes in at the ends where the slots are, and out to the rim.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/yh1agbjvb/IMG_2412.jpg)
then switched to a 1/8" diameter ball end mill, and took that depth 1/16" into the rim:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/y49wa59bb/IMG_2413.jpg)
Did the same on both sides of each of the two gears. Now its time to start chopping out the pie shaped bits between the spokes. As before, I made the first cut just inside the actual dimension so I could clean up the cut with some lighter passes. The spokes are tapered, so the rotary table was set to 5.4 degrees off centerline of the spoke.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/g1gtixl6f/IMG_2414.jpg)
You can see in that last photo that one of the screws is still in place to ensure the gear does not turn - that will be cleaned out last.
With the table swung over 5.4 degrees the other side of center, rough cut the second side of each spoke, releasing the chunk in the middle - was careful to go slow on the last bit of each, and was pushing down with a metal rod to force the chunk away from the cutter as it let go, did not want it catching in the cutter.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5reejpig7/IMG_2415.jpg)
Then back around each spoke, taking light cuts till they ended at the bottom of the stop holes in the corners.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/hgie7ntzb/IMG_2417.jpg)
Last step was to take the rest of each spoke down to depth, then mill the square hub outline in the center. Normally I would not square the hub, but thats how the original is. For the final cuts, the side screw was put into different holes as needed. Same pattern on both sides of the gear, with the squares aligned to each other.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4p4815rx3/IMG_2418.jpg)
And here is the first gear all milled out and set on the axle - still some trim bits to add, and need to make the final axle, for now been using an offcut which is a little short.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/uknykd96f/IMG_2419.jpg)
One down, one to finish up...
 :cartwheel:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on March 28, 2018, 08:42:42 PM
Beautifully done. That gear is a work of art, shame it's going to be painted  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 28, 2018, 11:02:50 PM
Beautifully done. That gear is a work of art, shame it's going to be painted  :cheers:
Just think of paint as really heavy tarnish!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 28, 2018, 11:12:45 PM
Got the second gear up to the same point as the first:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4mtj5kq3r/IMG_2422.jpg)
Here they are on the boom:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/it9a0st93/IMG_2421.jpg)
Realized I did not show the arbor on the rotary table - you can see how the mill left the pattern of the spokes in the top. There are three sets of holes: middle one for the axle hole, three outside ones used during initial drilling for the spokes, and 6 middle ones that are at the point where the spokes meet near the hub. Two of those were drilled/tapped in for screws used after the pie sections between the spokes were cut out, to keep the gear from turning.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dulrm9hqf/IMG_2420.jpg)

Next is to figure out how to make the little angled plates at the ends of the spokes, like in this photo:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fz64nrr7b/Crowd_Gear_Closeup.jpg)
The red arrows are pointing at the little angle braces cast into the gear (also, you can see how incredibly worn the gear is after 50 years of use! ). They would be really small to fabricate and solder in, wonder if putting down a blob of JB Weld and carving that with a dental bit would work better. Don't really need them, but it would be one of those neat little details...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on March 28, 2018, 11:25:50 PM
Thanks for your answer Chris. I've always been to concerned about breaking an endmill to try cutting a slot all in one bite.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 29, 2018, 03:26:54 AM
Thanks for your answer Chris. I've always been to concerned about breaking an endmill to try cutting a slot all in one bite.---Brian
If it was steel, I wouldn't have tried it, but the brass cut fine with a slow feed.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: J.L. on March 29, 2018, 10:17:47 AM
Hi Chris,

Superb sequential photography on the making of these two gear wheeels. Do you think you will put in those little reinforcing gussets?
Knowing your attention to detail, I bet you will.

 :popcorn:

John
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 29, 2018, 01:40:40 PM
Hi Chris,

Superb sequential photography on the making of these two gear wheeels. Do you think you will put in those little reinforcing gussets?
Knowing your attention to detail, I bet you will.

 :popcorn:

John
Thanks John. 


Had an idea how to add the little gusset plates last night (my usual late night idea delivery from back of the brain). Going to try cutting thin slots with a dental bit and high speed air tool to hold triangles cut from brass shim stock, could hold in with loctite or jb weld. Will try on some scrap and see, but it should work. Its one of those little details that draws the eye in a model.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 29, 2018, 05:28:26 PM
Gave the gusset paltes a try this morning, so far so good. Used the air-powered TurboCarver tool with a fine dental bit (about 0.020 slot from it) and made slots at the rim and hub edges for the plates.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ze868e4jr/IMG_2425.jpg)
Here is a bit of shim stock sitting in the slot:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fwdisgfbr/IMG_2429.jpg)
I used some JB QuikWeld to glue plates in all the slots (48 of them), let them set up a couple hours, and trimmed them off:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/r8q4a88l3/IMG_2431.jpg)
They are a subtle detail, but once painted I think it will add a nice touch.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 29, 2018, 06:53:24 PM
I got the gears loctited on to the shipper shaft and things re-assembled again, here is a couple photos, then a video of it in action:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ikc5upuyv/IMG_2434.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/arli2qwpj/IMG_2433.jpg)

Video showing how the motions work on the dipper:
[youtube1]https://youtu.be/7uMDKeb1aFM[/youtube1]
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dan Rowe on March 29, 2018, 08:37:56 PM
Hi Chris, nice work as usual. How many were in the crew for one of these machines? It seems like at least a fireman and an operator would have been needed.

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: sco on March 29, 2018, 08:38:31 PM
Great result as usual Chris!

Any ideas why it's called crowd engine though?

Simon.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on March 29, 2018, 08:56:38 PM
Beautiful, Chris!  That is just down right cool!

Any ideas why it's called crowd engine though?

I've been wondering the same thing!  Why "crowd engine"?

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 29, 2018, 09:08:30 PM
Hi Chris, nice work as usual. How many were in the crew for one of these machines? It seems like at least a fireman and an operator would have been needed.

Cheers Dan
They had a bare minimum of 3 - operator in the front of the cab, second operator on the turntable for crowd and bucket release, and engineer on the boiler. Normally had 8 men in the crew - added stoker, and a crew of misc laborers for clearing fallen rock at base, moving jackscrews, getting water/coal, things like that.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 29, 2018, 09:17:52 PM
Great result as usual Chris!

Any ideas why it's called crowd engine though?

Simon.
That is a good question - and why do they call the shaft the big gears are on the shipper shaft? I have not found out where those terms come from, the earliest catalogs mention terminology as being semi-agreed upon between the manufacturers, terms seem to date from the very early machines. I wonder if it is one of those terms simplified from some other language terminology? I have seen wording where the act of pushing the bucket down into the ground is 'crowding'.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 29, 2018, 09:24:07 PM
Well, while Zee is off asking his grandparents about old german terminology for us, I've been working on some more of the little bits on the main boom.
The ends of the axle holding the chain sheaves at the tip of the boom  have flats milled in to keep it from spinning (the sheaves have their own bearings), and are drilled for cotter pins. Some of the pins on the LeRoy shovel have had field repairs, and there are nails, bits of rebar, that sort of thing, but I'll use wire cotters for the model.
Started by milling/drilling the ends of the axle, using the square holder for a 1/4" round collet to get the top/bottom flats to be parallel to each other. When reversing the rod for the other end, I sighted through the back of the collet to line up the flats end to end.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/81lcwzp1z/IMG_2436.jpg)
Little square plates were drilled and filed out to fit the ends of the shaft, then drilled/tapped holes in the end of the boom for some 1-72 hex head screws to hold them on.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/69se22xzb/IMG_2438.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on March 29, 2018, 09:34:05 PM
Love it you cut the other edges first while still plenty of meat on the spokes awesome planning no flex.  :ThumbsUp:


 :cheers: Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: sco on March 29, 2018, 09:35:33 PM
Seems like crowd is excavator terminology with the original source lost in time.  Thought this type of excavator was extinct but the 2016 research paper goes into the technology in some detail so they must still be used: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/305473850_Digging_forces_of_Electric_Rope_Shovel_and_Adjustment_made_for_a_Better_Digging_Shovel_Having_Optimum_Rake_and_Tooth_Angles (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/305473850_Digging_forces_of_Electric_Rope_Shovel_and_Adjustment_made_for_a_Better_Digging_Shovel_Having_Optimum_Rake_and_Tooth_Angles)

Simon.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on March 29, 2018, 10:17:18 PM
If it's any help, I know that the ram that operates the bucket on a modern hydraulic digger is called the crowd ram. I always asumed it was because it crowds the dirt into the bucket, but I'm probably way off mark . . .  :shrug:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on March 30, 2018, 12:58:56 AM
That's exactly where it comes from! Crowding is increasing the pressure. Like a crowd of people, which is where I think the word comes from somewhere in the history of the English language.

I check this thread two or three times a day always knowing there will be some new and wonderful progress made..

 :popcorn: :popcorn: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on March 30, 2018, 01:03:05 AM
Chris.....won't matter for your build and I remember you mentioning a tar like build up on certain components, but I have wondered if the gearing..... pinion & rack and the straight cut tooth reduction gearing surfaces were run dry without any form of lubrication?

Were the smaller diameter straight cut tooth gears softer than the rack or the large gear? and hence easier and less costly to produce & replace

Any form of tar/pitch like lubricant in the teeth would have simply collected  gravel dust  :hammerbash:

Superb build and thread as usual.................(square drive :old: pinions & holes)...but then again this is turn of the Century machinery...........

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 30, 2018, 02:52:30 AM
That's exactly where it comes from! Crowding is increasing the pressure. Like a crowd of people, which is where I think the word comes from somewhere in the history of the English language.

I check this thread two or three times a day always knowing there will be some new and wonderful progress made..

 :popcorn: :popcorn: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Pete
Thanks Pete, that makes sense for why they call it that. Nice to have you along for the ride!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 30, 2018, 03:05:50 AM
Chris.....won't matter for your build and I remember you mentioning a tar like build up on certain components, but I have wondered if the gearing..... pinion & rack and the straight cut tooth reduction gearing surfaces were run dry without any form of lubrication?

Were the smaller diameter straight cut tooth gears softer than the rack or the large gear? and hence easier and less costly to produce & replace

Any form of tar/pitch like lubricant in the teeth would have simply collected  gravel dust  :hammerbash:

Superb build and thread as usual.................(square drive :old: pinions & holes)...but then again this is turn of the Century machinery...........

Derek
Hi Derek,


The tar buildup was the coating that they sprayed on the entire machine when they drove it out of the quarry and parked it in the field, now flaking off. It was not there when in use. It did save it for decades, but now that its cracking off needs to be stripped so it doesn't trap water.


From what I have read, they kept the bearings well greased, and the chain got a light oil to keep the inside of the links from grinding through. Don't know about the gears though. No sign of old grease in them, can still see grease in the edges if the bearings.  All are steel, seem to have worn evenly, but can't tell if any were replaced, though the ones in the longer gear trains would be tough to get at, and are quite large. The large ones I just made are about 5 feet in diameter, and show lots of wear.
In the marion catalogs they brag about the shipper shaft being square to avoid broken keys, though I think that the line shaft makers learned that round to square transitions were weak spots. Given how well these held up, must be good metalurgy. Marion made all their own steel, and apparently invented some new alloys. Would have been an amazing place to tour!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on March 30, 2018, 03:46:02 AM
Ah yes, round to square transitions in shafts. When shafts of that nature and period were made they were forged and the ends were upset on the end of the bar and no material was removed. The square and any collar were equal or larger than the bar/shaft.  When milling the square on the end was found to be cheaper than forging, the resulting sharp corners created stress risers that hadn't existed before. Hmmmmm. So there were a few failures. Engineering as usual...... :facepalm:

That link Simon posted really should be read by anyone interested in power shovel dynamics. It takes a common, simple, problem and shows how to optimize a shovel for particular conditions.

And the angular range they work with is within a 5* window... :o

Cool stuff.

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 30, 2018, 04:02:12 AM
Ah yes, round to square transitions in shafts. When shafts of that nature and period were made they were forged and the ends were upset on the end of the bar and no material was removed. The square and any collar were equal or larger than the bar/shaft.  When milling the square on the end was found to be cheaper than forging, the resulting sharp corners created stress risers that hadn't existed before. Hmmmmm. So there were a few failures. Engineering as usual...... :facepalm:

That link Simon posted really should be read by anyone interested in power shovel dynamics. It takes a common, simple, problem and shows how to optimize a shovel for particular conditions.

And the angular range they work with is within a 5* window... :o

Cool stuff.

Pete
So after the failures with sharp transitions, did they start radiusing the corners to reduce the problems? I can't tell from Marion's pictures since they are too small. They do say they did special hardening on the shafts, and the absence of keys makes it easier to change the gears on the shipper shaft. I noticed that thier other shafts are round with keyed gears.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on March 30, 2018, 05:53:32 AM
Book 'm Dano!!!

Those 'exposed' components were replaced frequently and the 'not so tightly' fitted squares were easy compared to the 'round with key' which, as you know, must be fitted nicely to be a reliable connection.

And that time period, 1890-1930, there were huge developments in iron and steel composition and manufacture. Just like today, any good thing would be adopted pretty quickly. Gotta keep up, ya know.

A hard steel bearing surface, properly finished, will wear almost forever in well lubricated Babbet so that was a feature that was very competitive.

Marion built a fine machine, and built their reputation on being an industry leader. You bet your bippy there was some serious, science based, engineering going on and improvements came frequently.

So, I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't a half dozen revisions in those parts over the years and that Marion kept them retro-fittable as long as possible. Why have a stack special parts when one or two fit most?

Bla bla bla

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on March 30, 2018, 05:56:12 AM
WAIT !!!!

Are the sides of the square parallel or is it a tapered square???? Not likely as it's harder to do. A straight sided square hole is easy...

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 30, 2018, 03:37:40 PM
WAIT !!!!

Are the sides of the square parallel or is it a tapered square???? Not likely as it's harder to do. A straight sided square hole is easy...

Pete
It looks like a parallel sided square section, though the corners are rounded in the square areas. Here is a page from one of the catalogs I have that talks about it:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/m0dxeu5tj/Page_037.jpg)
It would appear that they used a cross key or peg to keep the gears in position on the ends of the shaft, to prevent them sliding off.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on March 30, 2018, 05:37:00 PM
Hmmm, recreating that little setup would have been an interesting challenge for the elves, especially treating "to secure the greatest hardness and toughness"  :LittleDevil:

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 30, 2018, 05:44:24 PM
Hmmm, recreating that little setup would have been an interesting challenge for the elves, especially treating "to secure the greatest hardness and toughness"  :LittleDevil:

Fortunately these are shop elves, NOT marketoid-elves (ick!), spouting all the 'making it morer betterer' nonsense with made up words!!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 30, 2018, 10:32:04 PM
Made up the last few bits for the main boom this afternoon - the turnbuckles for holding the base into the saddle, and the eyebolts to hold the ends of the slewing chain. The turnbuckle ends were bent from some steel rod, the end overlapped back on the shank, and the end was sawn off at the same angle as the shank with a jewelers saw.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5qst8vtpj/IMG_2439.jpg)
After cutting, the end was bent down to lie against the shank, and then the joint was silver soldered, an extra blob of solder applied to blend it in.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4br8k5d6v/IMG_2443.jpg)
The two ends that go against the boom go through little plates, so those plates were inserted before soldering. Here are the parts, two turnbuckle end sets and the eyebolts. The eyebolts were left open for now, will be closed up after the chain has been inserted much later on in the build (need to have the frame, cab, gear trains, and winding drums made before I can thread the chains around).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xe5imz76f/IMG_2444.jpg)
The middle sections for the turnbuckles were made up out of a bit of brass bar stock and everything installed.
Now, I do not have a left-handed 2-56 tap and die set, so I made both ends of the turnbuckle with right hand threads. Obviously they will not tighten up by turning the middle section, so it will just take a little adjustment before final install to get the lenght right. The threaded section of the ends were left long for now, just in case the distance to the shackles on the turntable is any longer than designed. Shouldn't be, but better safe than sorry later.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/t50sksgrr/IMG_2445.jpg)
I think that finishes up the main boom for now. The crowd engine and its piping will be made later, and the upper stay braces can't be finished up till the A-frame is made. So, next step will be to start in on the turntable, with the saddle block base assembly up first.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/884kg9g7r/Turntable_Base_Casting.jpg)
Its a rather large part, too big for any metal bars I have on hand, so I went back to the 3D model and split the bodies into sections, with the main middle section being 1"x1", so I can make it from some 1" square brass bar that I have a length of. The section behind it with the angled notches is a hollow shell made from sheet metal, and the base plate it all sits on is 0.0625 plate. The curved section will be milled from some larger bar - that is what the bottom end of the boom sits against, like in this view:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/nvwhkh4x3/Main_Boom_Base.jpg)
Should be an interesting set to fabricate, probably will all be silver soldered together, which could be a challenge with the heavy block surrounded by thinner plates. May need some holding jigs for it, something to be worked out...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 30, 2018, 10:34:19 PM
After I looked again at that last rendering, realized there is one other last bit to make on the boom, the small pulley that the bucket door release rope threads through!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 31, 2018, 11:16:12 PM
This morning I got a start on the first piece of the turntable base saddle - once again, here is where it is going:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/884kg9g7r/Turntable_Base_Casting.jpg)
First part being made is the quarter-round section in the middle of that picture. I could have made it from some flat bar stock, but it would have meant doing a deep (the section is over 2" long") boring operation on the rotary table, as an interupted cut in a thin piece of metal, which I did not have confidence in doing without it flexing and ruining the part. After some noodling around in Fusion 3D to come up with a sequence that would result in the part without TOO much wasted stock (I have lots of brass round bar that I picked up cheap several years ago as drops), I came up with this sequence:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5dewplmdz/Base_Sequence.jpg)

So, I started with a 1-1/4" round bar of brass, turned one end to 1-1/16" to fit in my largest 5C collet, and bored the other end in the lathe, offset from center by 0.100" to leave room for the flat sections in the bar.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ng7zgpfmv/IMG_2446.jpg)
The line down the side was drawn on before removing it from the chuck, to mark the thin edge so it could be put closest to one side of the square collet holder. With the base held in the collet (the part stayed locked in the collet through all these steps) and the thin side up, took some passes with the mill down each side, halfway up the bored hole, till it just broke through the inside.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7uqnwrj47/IMG_2449.jpg)
Then the end of that section was hacksawn through next to the collet to release it.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qab4u5piv/IMG_2450.jpg)
The collet holder was turned over and the flat put in on the back side, milling down in stages till the flat was 0.062" from the center hole.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/h2iwdgxw7/IMG_2451.jpg)
Then the collet holder was turned 90 degrees, and that side milled off till it just went tangent to the center hole. That edge forms the bottom of the curve, where it will meet the base plate later.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/757vkey07/IMG_2452.jpg)
With those two flats done, then the collet holder was rotated 180 degrees in the vise, and the top edge milled off until it was 0.802" tall from there to the base flat.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5dewpimd3/IMG_2453.jpg)
Almost there - last milling in this sequence was to lower the cutter until it was halfway down the center hole, and mill the face back to form the vertical face. As each step in the sequence was done, I took lighter and lighter cuts since there was less support to the part, but there was no chatter or flexing.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/aotta93av/IMG_2454.jpg)
Here is another view of the part at that stage, with the holder removed from the vise:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/k9dfx4d7b/IMG_2455.jpg)
All that was left was to saw off the part and take a light pass on the end to take it to final length. Here it is sitting with the square block that it will be soldered to, next to the base of the main boom where it will be in the model:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/k9dfx45hj/IMG_2457.jpg)
Seems like a long way to go for a simple-looking part, but I'm not sure how else I could have made it with the equipment I have - the faceplate on the Sherline is not very good for this type of interrupted cut  boring, too much flex. It really did not take that long to do, but it probably is the lowest yield of part-to-raw-stock I've ever done!
Next up is a simple part, the main square block, just need to trim it to size and drill a big hole for the turntable pivot.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: J.L. on April 01, 2018, 01:31:08 PM
Hi Chris,

I wanted to show my wife the making of the brasss gears starting on page 63. I talked her through the process from the 1/4" x 4" brass disks as we scrolled down to you holding the gear in place. She was enthralled.

But then we came upon a little video of you operating the parts of the boom and bucket. What a treat.

You must be so pleased with the smooth operation of the parts made thus far. This is indeed a museum bound project. Perhaps I missed it, but the caretakers of the original machine rusting in the field must have approached you about having this completed model on permanent display.

Cheers...John
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 01, 2018, 03:02:09 PM
Hi Chris,

I wanted to show my wife the making of the brasss gears starting on page 63. I talked her through the process from the 1/4" x 4" brass disks as we scrolled down to you holding the gear in place. She was enthralled.

But then we came upon a little video of you operating the parts of the boom and bucket. What a treat.

You must be so pleased with the smooth operation of the parts made thus far. This is indeed a museum bound project. Perhaps I missed it, but the caretakers of the original machine rusting in the field must have approached you about having this completed model on permanent display.

Cheers...John

Thanks very much John!

It was both a treat and a big relief when the boom moved so well by turning the gears - one of those things where it SHOULD work, but there is always concern about things binding up.

The historical society does not really have a suitable place for the model (at least at this point), but I have definitely promised them the loan of it for any events they want to show it at. The parts so far will be shown at a fundraising meeting in about a month, along with a talk about it and the process. They may have a spot for it at some point - they run the Jello museum in an old house in LeRoy now - LeRoy is the original home of Jello!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 01, 2018, 03:05:39 PM
Well, it pays to have wacky friends! One just sent me this drawing for a fun Easter project.... Could make a steam powered bunny bean maker! Those of you with gardens will know what bunny beans are...

(https://s5.postimg.cc/x60faaikn/lepus-mechanica2_en.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on April 01, 2018, 04:59:59 PM
Don't think that can be right . . . I'm sure the Easter Bunny lays chocolate eggs  :LickLips:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 01, 2018, 07:22:12 PM
Don't think that can be right . . . I'm sure the Easter Bunny lays chocolate eggs  :LickLips:


Appearances can be deceiving!   :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 01, 2018, 08:43:18 PM
Today the large block in the center of the base assembly was milled down to size from some 1"x1" brass bar, and some 1/16" flat steel was cut to shape for the plate to form the bottom layer. I did not have any wide enough to do it in one piece, so there are two - you can just see the joint at about the 2-1/2" mark on the ruler in this photo, with the pieces set in place.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9yjx6wbfb/IMG_2459.jpg)
Having the back section a seperate piece worked out okay, since it gave a good way to make and attach the rear boxed in section. I cut some 1/16" flat stock  for the top/sides/back, and screwed them to some brass stock to hold them for silver soldering.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wn946fasn/IMG_2460.jpg)
There are two pieces of brass, one to hold the outer shell, the other smaller piece (so it wont get stuck on when soldered) to hold the back wall.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3xm89sm87/IMG_2461.jpg)
The brass parts were coated with some NicroBraze, which is a nifty substance that keeps the silver solder from running anywhere the NicroBraze is. Some people use WhiteOut for this, but it can form a really hard glass layer that is hard to remove, where the NicroBraze will come off with the pickling/brushing step. So, with that on and dried, everything was screwed together and silver soldered. As you can see, the brass parts and the screws came right out.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ex7fle4xj/IMG_2463.jpg)
After a pickle soak and some wire brushing, the section where the brass plates were was sawn off.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/itkrheks7/IMG_2464.jpg)
A quick couple passes on the mill and some filing, the sawn faces of the parts were smoothed out and test fit with the other blocks in the assembly:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xcrwit67b/IMG_2465.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/o4zo23rfb/IMG_2466.jpg)
Now it will be clamped up and hole drilled/tapped to join the pieces from underneath with some countersunk screws and some loctite for good measure. Still need to attach the lugs on the side for the braces up to the turntable floor plates, and bore the center hole for the pivot.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 01, 2018, 11:55:38 PM
I'm still watching Chris.
Haven't said much...maybe I'm getting bored.

Not!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 02, 2018, 12:07:36 AM
I'm still watching Chris.
Haven't said much...maybe I'm getting bored.

Not!
:cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on April 02, 2018, 02:00:21 AM
Chris--I'm assuming that you are related to the Rockafellers, or else have your own private brass mine. The price of brass has got scary here in Ontario. I did a little research trying to find why it was so expensive, and found that it seems the existing copper mines in the world are running out of copper, and no new copper deposits have been discovered, and that is whats driving the cost of brass so high.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 02, 2018, 02:34:24 AM
Chris--I'm assuming that you are related to the Rockafellers, or else have your own private brass mine. The price of brass has got scary here in Ontario. I did a little research trying to find why it was so expensive, and found that it seems the existing copper mines in the world are running out of copper, and no new copper deposits have been discovered, and that is whats driving the cost of brass so high.

Not the Rockafellers, more like those SillyFellersOverThere!   :Lol:

I don't usually buy bar stock just for an engine at the moment, over the years I've haunted the commercial suppliers like Yarde Metals, who have a section called the 'Drop Zone' on their website where they sell large bar stock in 3 or 4 foot lengths as offcuts from their normal sales to factories. It is usually up to 1/2 off normal prices - it was even better till last year when they fixed their shipping calculator - they were charging like $5 or $10 for an order, even if it was 60 or 70 pounds and shipped in 6 different tubes from 3 different warehouses! Was great for getting the larger stock I am using, like the 1" square bar, 2-1/2" round bar, 1/2"x6" flat stock even, that stuff was dirt cheap. Once, before SmallParts got bought by Amazon, they were closing out stock and I got bundles of brass rod up to 1/2" diameter, 3' long, a buck each. Bought em out. Check with the commercial suppliers, local or on the web, they often will sell offcuts dirt cheap to clear the bin - you have to ask, not usually on the normal website, though Yarde is one exception to that. Other places, like OnlineMetals, have reasonable prices usually, but the shipping can be a killer - I am on the email list for places like that, a couple times a year they have big sales, sometimes with shipping cuts, and I'll stock up on things I use a lot of. Other times, when I just need a couple small sizes, places like McMaster are handy, they ship out of Syracuse (next city over from Rochester), so it shows up next day.
Anyway, I tend to stock up on bar stock on sales, in larger sizes/longer lengths, and use it for the next several models. Also, with the articles in Live Steam on the Lombard (and whatever follows), my supplies are being funded by those payments, which is nice when living on a pension!

Wow - that was a long reply! Anyway, short version: buy it when its cheap, not when you need it the next day.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on April 02, 2018, 04:33:53 AM
Hi Chris , good work there and i have a lot of stock metals from car boot sales,  Traction engine rallies and also for short bits from the gear cutting firm that is quite close,  they always have shortish

 offcuts in a range of materials ....

Willy
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steam Haulage on April 02, 2018, 09:46:22 AM
Chris
I am intrigued by yout mention of Nicobraze, do you mean one of theri 'stop-off' grades?
Jerry
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 02, 2018, 02:41:31 PM
Chris
I am intrigued by yout mention of Nicobraze, do you mean one of theri 'stop-off' grades?
Jerry
Yes - I am using the 'Green' stop-off version, the general purpose one. Here is where I happened to pick it up:

http://www.carbideprocessors.com/nicrobraz-green-stop-off-pen/

Someone on another thread a year or two back mentioned it, and I got some, works quite well. When I remember I have it before soldering, that is!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 02, 2018, 02:49:56 PM
This morning got the holes for the screws to hold all the pieces together drilled/tapped, and the main pivot hole bored into the base.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4grs2ma1z/IMG_2467.jpg)
This hole is the center of the turntable that the main boom sits on. The pivot it sits on has a large hole through the center that the hoist chain comes up through, so that it does not change length as the boom swings. There is another of the chain sheaves lined up underneath on the frame rails to redirect the chain back to the winding drum in the cab.
All the mating surfaces of the parts were given a coat of Loctite retaining compound, screwed together and left to set. While waiting for that, I'll start making the lugs that will go on either side for the braces up to the swing plate on top. The countersunk screw heads holding things together from underneath will be filed off flush.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qfy6ptylz/IMG_2468.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 02, 2018, 06:16:59 PM
Hi Chris, The HCEA has masses of detailed information in their archive. Which includes the 'Marion PowerShovel Company Archive'.
Being a few thousand miles away I'm not in a position to visit their Museum for myself but from whatI hear you may be able to find the detail you need. There might even be a member who has the information.  A recent article in 'Equipment Echoes' magazine by Don Franz the editor, whose father had been a craneman on the Marion 91 Panama shovel in the France quarry in Waterville Ohio.
The HCEA phone is(419)352-5616. Perhaps a call might be worthwhile?
Jerry
I have been through the listings of those archives, for the early years it appears that what they have are patent documents and sales brochures and such, all in very poor condition (dirty, brittle) waiting to be photocopied. For the early years, does not sound like they have much I have not seen elsewhere. The Marion County historical society got the other half of the old company documents. I've been in touch with them a few times, things are not organized but I may stop in there on my way out to Indiana this summer and see what I can find. Both places got boxes of documents when the company was shut down in the 90s by Bucyrus - by then, as in many old companies, early records were mostly missing as irrelevant to current operations. Same thing happened at Kodak - we had a museum room full of old cameras and products, and during the bankruptcy shutdown of the camera division, they were just giving the stuff away to anyone interested in a souvineer! For companies like Marion, every time they went through a building move, merger, or buyout, truckloads of stuff would be tossed that we would kill for today!
Update on this - I have been corresponding with the HCEA, and got in touch with the man there (Tom) who I think runs the archive portion - turns out I was wrong, they have LOTS more than what is cataloged online yet, including records of the early machine sales. So, back on that as a info source, seeing if I can arrange a research visit this August, stopping in on my trip to Indiana - Bowling Green Ohio is not that far out of the way for my drive, well worth a day or so to stop in. More info to come....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 02, 2018, 07:31:48 PM
Finishing up on the base unit, milled some brass down to form the strut lugs, using the fixture plate on the rotary table again to round the ends and take the sides to width. Both were done in one piece so there was an easy way to bolt them to the table.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rwjcimf5z/IMG_2469.jpg)
After sawing them apart, a round post was turned into the base to give a way to mount them - the slot that will go in the end is too narrow to get a bolt in, so they will be cross drilled through the baseplate and held with a screw that way.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kgk2wtc13/IMG_2470.jpg)
The slot was cut using a jewelers saw down each side and across the bottom, finished off with a file.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xxh1fp9hz/IMG_2473.jpg)
Here is the base unit all assembled - once the loctite has had a chance to set up well I'll file off the countersunk screwheads in the bottom flush with the base plate.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4v2rcvuxz/IMG_2475.jpg)
Next up is to start the framework that goes around the top of this unit that holds the swing circle plates (the turntable surface)...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 03, 2018, 12:56:43 AM
More on the swing circle (what I've been calling the turntable, trying to use the terms they did), which will sit on top of the saddle assembly just made. They attach to each other with some heavy angle-iron pieces. I have some smaller brass angle stock, but nothing this size, so I figured it was time to see if I could make some from flat steel stock. I cut some strips a bit longer than needed and clamped them at the ends for silver soldering. The extra length worked out well, as I suspected the clamps acted as heat sinks and the stock would not get hot enough to melt the solder at the ends. Here are the two side bars needed, plus another shorter one that will become some angled braces:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mitr2p1o7/IMG_2476.jpg)
Not the neatest solder job, but it is well joined, and the paint will hide the color change on the surface!   O:-)

Just cut the surface plates from the offcuts of flat stock used on the main boom - cut with a saber saw and smoothed the edges on the grinder. Here is how they will go together (bottom view)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/yxgj310w7/IMG_2477.jpg)
The three plates will be riveted to the angle stock, which bolt to the base assembly. On the top, there is a cross beam, plus the rounded angle rim that the chain wraps around - that will be a interesting one to solder up. First need to bore the large holes in the plates.

Here are some pictures of what it will all look like (minus the boots, weeds, dirt, etc!)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rwsja0twn/DSC_6323.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/lvuucyf07/DSC_6557.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steam Haulage on April 03, 2018, 08:04:14 AM
Glad you're getting some joy with the HCEA,
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 03, 2018, 03:33:29 PM
More on the swing circle parts - laid out the holes in the plates and first cut the large hole in the rear plate:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/svr9vkiuv/IMG_2478.jpg)
The clamped the two side plates together and bored the three holes in it together, so they would match:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/54rwdgqdj/IMG_2480.jpg)
The smaller hole in the middle will be used for the shackle which holds the turnbuckles at the base of the main boom. The other larger holes are for an unknown reason - for slings when lifting the assembly on and off?
Here are the plates so far:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/q1o4i4w47/IMG_2481.jpg)
There is still a narrow slot to cut in the two side plates to take the angle brace up from the base - going to cut that later once the base is fitted to the plates, just in case it needs some adjustment in position. I think the next step will be to fit the angle iron pieces to the plates and base.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 03, 2018, 10:31:19 PM
This afternoon I got the angle-iron strips bolted to the sides of the base, and started fitting the top plates. The side ones were lined up and clamped to the strips, then drilled and riveted on. Then clamped the rear plate on and did the same.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/njgpt4ptz/IMG_2482.jpg)
Here are the parts so far. Note the hole in the right end of the vertical angle strip, a rod gets bolted across there to help brace the open end of the circle, and there is also a pair of braces that run from that end down to the base piece.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/d9eatw7o7/IMG_2483.jpg)
The rivets at the outside ends were left off for now, they will be done with the outer circle plates that hold the swing chain around the edge of the circle. Also, note that there are three rivets left out in the center - there will be a box beam across the middle, where the ruler is set in this photo:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5gnn1xh4n/IMG_2487.jpg)
Also, still need to trim off the angle strips at the back end:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/a2jra9uxz/IMG_2486.jpg)
Coming together pretty well, starting to look like the final assembly.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on April 04, 2018, 12:10:27 PM
Hi Chris,
 Just sent off for ANOTHER truck load  :popcornsmall:

At this rate you should be digging snow come THIS Christmas !!!!.......the shovel clearing a path for the Lombard pulling a load of Xmas trees.......with a bunch of elves yahooing on top!

Great work Chris!

Zee.....you reading this thread???.....now you are unemployed ...... :stickpoke: or has T got the list of jobs out now the weather is improving your side of the globe, I feel your pain!!  :lolb:

Cheers Kerrin

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 04, 2018, 12:29:44 PM
Hi Chris,
 Just sent off for ANOTHER truck load  :popcornsmall:

At this rate you should be digging snow come THIS Christmas !!!!.......the shovel clearing a path for the Lombard pulling a load of Xmas trees.......with a bunch of elves yahooing on top!

Great work Chris!

Zee.....you reading this thread???.....now you are unemployed ...... :stickpoke: or has T got the list of jobs out now the weather is improving your side of the globe, I feel your pain!!  :lolb:

Cheers Kerrin
Wish I had the drawing talent to paint that scene!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 05, 2018, 07:49:54 PM
Well, after most of a couple days dealing with wind storm caused power outages at mine and my mother's houses (local utility company is now owned by some overseas conglomerate, they outsource all the repair work to idiots,  :Mad: :cussing: :rant: who kept closing out the repair tickets when they fixed a nearby block, never got near her house), back in the shop again.

So, got more done on the swing circle, fitted and riveted on the seam doublers where the main plates butt up to each other:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fqcqfgwp3/IMG_2488.jpg)
Again, leaving the outer rivets off for now, till the upper plates for the chain guides are on,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/yvfzp8qsn/IMG_2489.jpg)
and also the angled brace and crossbar that goes on the front:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6vbw4yfmf/IMG_2490.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/z87dvfw7r/IMG_2491.jpg)
Then its time to make the chain guide which runs around the outside of the swing circle:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/lvuucyf07/DSC_6557.jpg)
It is made up of a series of horizontal plates and a single curved vertical plate. Still not sure how I am going to hold the vertical plate in place for silver soldering - want to do the vert/horiz plates together, then rivet that assembly in place, since clamping it all to the main circle would make for a huge heat sink - need to whip up some kind of holding jig. Anyway, rought cut out the segments of the horizontal plates, and drilled the stack for locating pins to repeatably be able to clamp them to the tolling plate for milling the arcs, outside
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4e04xpb5j/IMG_2493.jpg)
and inside
(https://s5.postimg.cc/a26fom2nb/IMG_2495.jpg)
Here is the first one set on the circle to show where they go - they overlap the circle slightly on the outside edge. once all the arcs are milled, I'll cut the ends to all aim at the center of the circle.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gsmwy1adj/IMG_2496.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 05, 2018, 09:19:40 PM
Zee.....you reading this thread???.....now you are unemployed ...... :stickpoke: or has T got the list of jobs out now the weather is improving your side of the globe, I feel your pain!!  :lolb:

Read what thread? This one? It's a hole from which I won't get out.  :Lol:
Trying to catch up on a lot of things but T hasn't provided a list yet. I think she's letting me wind down.

1st on list is to get more popcorn (and cookies more to my taste  :Lol: )

I'm liking your speed Chris. Stanley's just around the corner. Next week I'm thinking.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 05, 2018, 09:26:05 PM
Zee.....you reading this thread???.....now you are unemployed ...... :stickpoke: or has T got the list of jobs out now the weather is improving your side of the globe, I feel your pain!!  :lolb:

Read what thread? This one? It's a hole from which I won't get out.  :Lol:
Trying to catch up on a lot of things but T hasn't provided a list yet. I think she's letting me wind down.

1st on list is to get more popcorn (and cookies more to my taste  :Lol: )

I'm liking your speed Chris. Stanley's just around the corner. Next week I'm thinking.
Yup, next week. Maybe the week after...!  ;D

Reminds me of what we called an Adobe Two Weeks - they always promised us everything in two weeks. Two weeks later, its 'Oh, another two weeks'!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Gas_mantle on April 05, 2018, 09:52:38 PM
It's looking great Chris  :ThumbsUp:

I'm sure a good doctor could cure your fetish for making 1000's of rivets and studs though  ;)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 05, 2018, 09:57:16 PM
It's looking great Chris  :ThumbsUp:

I'm sure a good doctor could cure your fetish for making 1000's of rivets and studs though  ;)
He tried. I riveted him into a box!    :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 06, 2018, 06:31:05 PM
The rest of the chain guide circle parts are milled to shape, and I bent up the vertical band (paint cans are handy forms) into a circle and riveted the crossover point to hold the diameter.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/43apes73b/IMG_2499.jpg)
Next step is to silver solder the horizontal segments to the vertical band. Clamping it all to the base circle would work, but would make for a huge heat sink and most likely permenantly join it to the base, which I dont want to do yet. Parallel clamps work to hold it together, but also suck a ton of heat off and not sure I want to mess up the hardness of the clamps, so I am thinking of womping up a batch of mini c clamps, like this:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8cffgyi2f/IMG_2500.jpg)
Made from some small steel bar, would not draw a lot of heat, and would hold well enough for the job. I think. Need to ponder over lunch...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 06, 2018, 10:05:29 PM
After lunch, made up one clamp as drawn, worked well and so made up a bunch more, hope they hold under heating, should...  Pics after soldering, probably tomorrow.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on April 07, 2018, 03:36:06 AM
Chris...the chain for the plate drum slew......from the original image [and compared to a US size 10 safety boot] it appears to be approx. 8" x 1 1/2" inner pitch x wire size link??....

[Images can distort :facepalm:, it could even be 9" x 1 3/4"]

The image also suggests approx. 20  links in 1/2 a diameter wrap

Does the chain shown equate in scale to these approximation?

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 07, 2018, 03:09:16 PM
Chris...the chain for the plate drum slew......from the original image [and compared to a US size 10 safety boot] it appears to be approx. 8" x 1 1/2" inner pitch x wire size link??....

[Images can distort :facepalm: , it could even be 9" x 1 3/4"]

The image also suggests approx. 20  links in 1/2 a diameter wrap

Does the chain shown equate in scale to these approximation?

Derek
Not sure if a size 10 is right for him, that was a big guy, but I never measured the bottom of his boot!  :Lol:

As I recall the chain is 1-1/2" diameter bar, approximately 7"x9" overall outside links - would have to dig into my notes to get closer than that. The chain I found was as close to that as I could find, the links should be a bit thicker and longer to be true scale. I did draw up a chain bending jig to make it exact, but have not tried making it yet, may give that a try at some point - it would be a LOT of chain to make, couple of yards probably to do it all, not sure if I can get the overbend necessary to overcome the springback of the metal, probably would need a second finishing jig.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 07, 2018, 04:56:24 PM
As promised, here is what the little clamp blocks look like, this was the first one made as a test:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/h8v9hwzjr/IMG_2501.jpg)
Very small and light so as not to interfere with the silver soldering, and very quick to make so if I wreck them its no big loss.
Assembled all the parts for silver soldering, aligned with the bottom edge of the ring, and leaving the opening at the front uncovered:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mka62mtc7/IMG_2502.jpg)
fluxed the parts, added short lengths of silver solder wire (I buy coils of the thin wire version used by jewelers, easy to lay into joints or twist around rods and then heat to melt in) and worked my way around the circumference with the torch, used a pick to help the solder flow along the inner joint.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qgnhymm1j/IMG_2504.jpg)
Removed the clamps and tested it against the base circle, still round so that is good, was nervous about it warping. There were two of the clamps that did not get enough NicroBraze so had to cut them free, little of the solder ran down and held them to the bottom flange.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/w4tspiy3r/IMG_2506.jpg)
All looks good, so its soaking in some pickle to clean it up, will start drilling and riveting the parts together once its been wire brushed clean.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 07, 2018, 05:04:49 PM
Chris...the chain for the plate drum slew......from the original image [and compared to a US size 10 safety boot] it appears to be approx. 8" x 1 1/2" inner pitch x wire size link??....

[Images can distort :facepalm: , it could even be 9" x 1 3/4"]

The image also suggests approx. 20  links in 1/2 a diameter wrap

Does the chain shown equate in scale to these approximation?

Derek
Not sure if a size 10 is right for him, that was a big guy, but I never measured the bottom of his boot!  :Lol:

As I recall the chain is 1-1/2" diameter bar, approximately 7"x9" overall outside links - would have to dig into my notes to get closer than that. The chain I found was as close to that as I could find, the links should be a bit thicker and longer to be true scale. I did draw up a chain bending jig to make it exact, but have not tried making it yet, may give that a try at some point - it would be a LOT of chain to make, couple of yards probably to do it all, not sure if I can get the overbend necessary to overcome the springback of the metal, probably would need a second finishing jig.
Correction, misremembered the size - its closer to a 5 x 7 link on the slew chain, here is one of the measurement shots, better than interpolating from an unknown boot:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4ir14nz9j/DSC_6617.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 07, 2018, 05:42:56 PM
Fantastic job.

I think those little clamps are some of your best work.  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 07, 2018, 06:54:19 PM
Fantastic job.

I think those little clamps are some of your best work.  :Lol:


Oh, come on, there was the time the swarf made a picture...   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 08, 2018, 12:59:45 AM
Last work for the day - got the chain ring drilled/riveted in place (used the pin locator holes from making the rim parts, just had to drill through the base circle)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/li96bx4tj/IMG_2507.jpg)
Then made up the three strips which make up the center box beam in the center. They were rough cut to length, then fine tuned on the belt sander till they were a snug fit inside the circle rim.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/sy8fxqfo7/IMG_2509.jpg)
Then, as before, the parts were silver soldered together and cleaned up. Here is the beam set into the circle.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/vsblb6x9z/IMG_2512.jpg)
Then it was riveted in place, through the angle iron in the center and through the circle plates farther out, spanning the area where the outer slots will go for the cross brace.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gwd23kr07/IMG_2514.jpg)
The tricky bit was drilling/boring the center hole through the beam plate, started with a rough guesstimate of the position and fine tuned it when the hole got out close to final size.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/na256u3lz/IMG_2515.jpg)
Then drilled and milled the holes for the shackle which the turnbuckles on the boom attach to, and the slot that the angle brace will go through.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7oktmw73b/IMG_2516.jpg)
Here is the assembled swing circle, quite a pile o parts!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5792fn2mf/IMG_2517.jpg)
Next up will be the T-shaped parts at the ends of the center beam, and the shackles. Here are what those will look like:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/uejyfesqf/Turntable_above.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/smqzkih3b/Turntable_Underneath.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 08, 2018, 08:07:05 PM
Coming down to the last few parts on the swing circle assembly. Today made of the T shaped brackets that hold the angled struts and the shackles for the turnbuckles. A block long enough for both was cut, the ends radiused on the sander just like the box beam was, and then the sides were notched in on the mill to form the T shape.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xd8y34zyv/IMG_2518.jpg)
The underside was then slotted to take the angle struts.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/99i6evk2v/IMG_2519.jpg)
The two parts were cut apart, clamped in place, and the hole in the base plate used as a drill guide for the hole to take the shackle pin later.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4auo0blev/IMG_2520.jpg)
Then drilled the cross hole to take the bolt through the angle strut.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/t4480zc53/IMG_2522.jpg)
and drilled the two holes for the bolts that pull the T into the outer rim.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gphg0nscn/IMG_2521.jpg)
The angle struts are another of those parts where it is probably better to take the measurements to fit the existing parts rather than from the plans, there are SO many other parts riveted and bolted together between the ends of the struts, the tolerances can build up and throw off the measurement a little. This turned out to be true, the distances were just enough off that if I had drilled from the plan measurements they would not have quite fit. So, I drilled the first hole in the bar stock for the struts, ran a bolt through to hold it and marked the hole at the other end through the flange.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/k93dqhi7r/IMG_2524.jpg)
After drilling the second hole in each strut (the lengths worked out the same on both sides, but a few thou off the plans), the sides of the struts were milled down and the ends rounded on the belt sander. Here the first one is installed, second ready to go:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5pw8p29nb/IMG_2526.jpg)
The final parts still to be made on the swing circle are the shackles that will go through the hole near the outer end of the struts, and through the larger hole just left of that in the photo. Then I can start on the lower base that this assembly sits on, which holds the vertical pivot tube that goes through the large middle hole of the circle. That lower base bolts to the front frame of the shovel, and helps support the A-frame.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 08, 2018, 10:07:47 PM
The shackles are done, bent up from steel rod and the joints silver soldered closed. I think this completes the swing circle, next is the pivot base that it sits on.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/luiniii7r/IMG_2531.jpg)
The ends of the turnbuckles are through the shackles, the turnbuckles will be screwed back together once the boom is in place in the swing circle, which won't be till after the A-frame assembly is done, since that holds up the outer end of the boom. I also need the circle seperate for now, to fit the pivot base to it.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3rpkraenb/IMG_2532.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on April 08, 2018, 11:23:29 PM
Hi Chris,  wow that was quick  !! i do admire your alacrity with your builds 110% !!
Willy
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 09, 2018, 12:00:05 AM
Hi Chris,  wow that was quick  !! i do admire your alacrity with your builds 110% !!
Willy
Thanks Willy, thought it was longer than that, but its been just 9 days for the swing circle assembly, time fun when you're making swarf!  (better than Kermit the frog's version, 'times fun when you're eating flies' )

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 09, 2018, 01:00:13 AM
Hi Chris,  wow that was quick  !! i do admire your alacrity with your builds 110% !!
Willy
Thanks Willy, thought it was longer than that, but its been just 9 days for the swing circle assembly, time fun when you're making swarf!  (better than Kermit the frog's version, 'times fun when you're eating flies' )

 :cheers:

If you're zipping down the road and not catching a few flies...then you're not zipping down the road. Get my drift?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 09, 2018, 08:34:33 PM
Today I got a start on the pivot base that the swing circle sits on. This is what the part will look like:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/o91suqsw7/Pivot.jpg)
and with the pivot bearing in place, it extends down through the base, supports the swing circle while letting the hoist chain come up through the center.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tx83lmpiv/Pivot_And_Bearing.jpg)
It took some figuring to come up with how to make this, starting with a single chunk would mean hogging off WAY too much material, so decided to make the center in one piece, with two thinner pieces silver soldered on to form the flanges, plus the angled braces up to the front circle.
After digging through the stock racks, found a slab of 303 stainless steel, 3/8" thick, and wide enough to get the center section out of. I rough cut it to shape:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xea5oowbr/IMG_2534.jpg)
Then milled the sides to length, and started shaping up the front edge.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fbh2xh86v/IMG_2535.jpg)
The circular section is just a thin overhang, so the back of that was milled out too:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kmvzi71zb/IMG_2537.jpg)
The stock was slightly thicker than the finished part, so I took the notch in the back of the arc to size, which as expected made the arc warp out just a little - that will be flattened off when the stock is taken to final thickness. This steel does not move much when thinned on one side, but this section needs to be flat for the bearing to ride on, and it warped just enough to see some light when a straightedge was held to it. Good thing there is some trimming room.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 10, 2018, 12:10:52 AM
Some more done on the pivot base, started shaping the sides by milling in the flat flanges at the ends where the bolts go:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3mhon8bqv/IMG_2538.jpg)
then milling the angled sides:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/51j9bys9j/IMG_2539.jpg)
Took a skim cut off the top to get it to final thickness and ensure the top is nice and flat for the bearing, then drilled a small hole where the center of the pivot post will be, used that to hold it to the rotary table to radius the forward edge:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/eyua50s5j/IMG_2541.jpg)
Part so far:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/brzqlen53/IMG_2542.jpg)
Next I'll start on the flat stock to form the flanges front and back...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 10, 2018, 12:22:24 AM
Is that all one hunk of metal? That last pic almost shows the part with the round end is sitting in another part.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 10, 2018, 12:25:44 AM
Is that all one hunk of metal? That last pic almost shows the part with the round end is sitting in another part.
Yup, one piece, the end mill tool marks leave visible lines, though to to touch it is smooth.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: J.L. on April 10, 2018, 01:04:00 AM
Chris, I'm going to have to get some string to tie around my jaw to keep it from dropping.

Very complex and precice machining here...

John
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on April 10, 2018, 05:38:22 AM
Chris, I'm continuing to follow along and be impressed!  You put a ton of effort into every piece, and it shows!

Kim

PS I'm the one in the back, on the left, with the big bucket of popcorn!  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steam Haulage on April 10, 2018, 08:58:37 AM
It's teaching me a lot watching your build. My interest in these machines goes back a long time, at least 50 years. As you progress I begin to see how Marion were feeling their way towards acheiving strength and maintainablity in machines which were intended for very arduous work where the machine's weight on the working surface had be kept within bounds.

Reading the patents and other literature gives little insight to the many hours and indeed years which the designers and builders spent and this 91 machine build of yours just illustrates the ingenuity needed. Perhaps you are giving me a lesson as to why they and their competitors embraced 'modern' metallurgy and adopted welding construction wherever possible.

Jerry
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 10, 2018, 12:37:26 PM
It's teaching me a lot watching your build. My interest in these machines goes back a long time, at least 50 years. As you progress I begin to see how Marion were feeling their way towards acheiving strength and maintainablity in machines which were intended for very arduous work where the machine's weight on the working surface had be kept within bounds.

Reading the patents and other literature gives little insight to the many hours and indeed years which the designers and builders spent and this 91 machine build of yours just illustrates the ingenuity needed. Perhaps you are giving me a lesson as to why they and their competitors embraced 'modern' metallurgy and adopted welding construction wherever possible.

Jerry
The founders of Marion supposedly got into the business due to the weaknesses of the early machines, and went through many iterations of designs to make them more robust. I think it was that focus on reliability that got them to be a leading maker, maybe just to afford the guarantees they gave. It was a time when alloys were constantly being developed. I have to read up on welding development, there is not a lot of it in the 91, mostly bolts and rivets with a lot of castings.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 10, 2018, 01:08:33 PM
Chris, I'm going to have to get some string to tie around my jaw to keep it from dropping.

Very complex and precice machining here...

John
Better use elastic, then you can keep eating popcorn with Kim!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on April 10, 2018, 11:25:42 PM
The Titanic was cast iron plates riveted together in 1912.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 10, 2018, 11:40:39 PM
The Titanic was cast iron plates riveted together in 1912.
Fortunately this shovel never had to dodge icebergs! 


The state of the art of metalurgy and welding must have been changing fast back at that time. I am still learning myself, got the block for the little angle braces under the rounded front of the pivot base silver soldered on today, but had a dry joint on one side, need to try again.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 11, 2018, 01:12:58 PM
Finally got around to doing some searching on how they made I beams and such, was surprised to see (as usual on this sort of thing) that the rolling process for making them dates back to 1849, much earlier than I would have guessed. Found this nice diagram on the process:
(http://www.jfe-21st-cf.or.jp/chapter_3/images/d_01_ph2.jpg)
As for welding processes for adding flanges and such, electric arc welding appears to go back to the very early 1800's, with gas torch welding getting practical on industrial scale around 1890's. By WWI, some ships were being made entirely welded, with automated welding coming in around 1920. So, entirely possible for some of the parts on the Marion 91 to have been welded, though they appear to have used  bolts and rivets for the majority of the parts:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3lqkw07hj/DSC_6209.jpg)
Even for flanges on a lot of the joints between cross beams:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rcpye3zyv/DSC_6944.jpg)
Though there are obvious places where things were welded in place:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/oimt0nid3/DSC_6530.jpg)
including some flanges at the ends of I-beams where they must have welded:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3lqkvzs1z/IMG_1183.jpg)
I have been debating how to make the beams for the model, the sizes are not something available off the shelf so they have to be made from bar stock. One way would be to start with a single thick piece of bar and mill out a channel on both sides. It would work, but would be a lot of work and generate lots of waste given that there are over 4 linear yards of beams to make. Another way I am leaning towards is to make a set of holding clamps or jigs to allow silver soldering up the three pieces of flat bar stock - might need to put a shallow groove in the center of the top/bottom webs with a ball end mill to help the center web stay in place. Probably need to connect the clamps to keep things from sagging or warping while heating the parts. The end flanges will most likely be riveted on later like they did in most places.   :headscratch:   Maybe I should have taken those welding classes after all?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dan Rowe on April 11, 2018, 02:18:09 PM
Chris,
Here is a thread about my methods of making scale I beams:
http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,2430.msg40700.html#msg40700

Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 11, 2018, 02:51:12 PM
Chris,
Here is a thread about my methods of making scale I beams:
http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,2430.msg40700.html#msg40700 (http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,2430.msg40700.html#msg40700)

Dan
Excellent thread Dan, thanks!!  That saves me some experiments and a lot of time.  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 11, 2018, 07:31:20 PM
Wrapping up the swing circle pivot base, drilled and bored the hole for the pivot bearing center post:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3s8vchy6v/IMG_2550.jpg)
then bored the larger hole for the bearing to sit in:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/57ag186zr/IMG_2551.jpg)
The bearing itself was turned out of some bearing bronze rod, first turned the center disc and the larger post on the top end,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gwefp7l3r/IMG_2552.jpg)
flipped the part around and turned the lower end and drilled/bored the center hole for the hoist chain to pass through:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/prf9zqpbr/IMG_2553.jpg)
Here is how it sits in the base, partway out of the counterbored recess:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/g6vncucuf/IMG_2556.jpg)
Last part is the spacer plate, basically a very large washer. Started by boring a hole in an offcut of 1/16" flat steel (left over from main boom sides),
(https://s5.postimg.cc/b884yae6f/IMG_2557.jpg)
then mounted that on an arbor (fit nicely on my gear cutter arbor so did not have to make a new one) to turn the outside round and to size:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8qwdr24kn/IMG_2559.jpg)
Test fit on the pivot bearing post:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/s8r170gxz/IMG_2560.jpg)
Here are the parts assembled, upside down to show the base and pivot. It allows the swing circle to turn a bit over 180 degrees.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/prf9zr4rb/IMG_2563.jpg)
and a top view, showing how the hoist chain can pass through the center of the whole assembly:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/caibguk53/IMG_2554.jpg)
That completes the swing circle parts - need to rework the temporary base to allow this to sit on it, so I can assemble it with the main boom and dipper. There will still need to be a support for the boom, since the upper guys can't go on until the A-frame is made. The base of the A-frame bolts to the vertical plate on the back of the pivot base. The A-frame is connected to the, pivot base. The pivot base is connected to the....  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 11, 2018, 08:56:48 PM
How often can I say awesome?

As often as I see awesome.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 11, 2018, 10:22:56 PM
How often can I say awesome?

As often as I see awesome.
Thanks Zee!


Though I just said something like awe whoops, was making changes to the temporary base to take the new pivot base, and realized that I didn't drill the bolt holes around the edge of the pivot base to hold it to the frame.  Whoops!!


 ::)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on April 11, 2018, 11:09:04 PM
I see the words but I don't see any pics...

I see some text where the pics should be but only in this reply!!!

Pete

But the pic text doesn't show when my reply is posted??????


Wrapping up the swing circle pivot base, drilled and bored the hole for the pivot bearing center post:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3s8vchy6v/IMG_2550.jpg)
then bored the larger hole for the bearing to sit in:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/57ag186zr/IMG_2551.jpg)
The bearing itself was turned out of some bearing bronze rod, first turned the center disc and the larger post on the top end,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gwefp7l3r/IMG_2552.jpg)
flipped the part around and turned the lower end and drilled/bored the center hole for the hoist chain to pass through:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/prf9zqpbr/IMG_2553.jpg)
Here is how it sits in the base, partway out of the counterbored recess:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/g6vncucuf/IMG_2556.jpg)
Last part is the spacer plate, basically a very large washer. Started by boring a hole in an offcut of 1/16" flat steel (left over from main boom sides),
(https://s5.postimg.cc/b884yae6f/IMG_2557.jpg)
then mounted that on an arbor (fit nicely on my gear cutter arbor so did not have to make a new one) to turn the outside round and to size:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8qwdr24kn/IMG_2559.jpg)
Test fit on the pivot bearing post:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/s8r170gxz/IMG_2560.jpg)
Here are the parts assembled, upside down to show the base and pivot. It allows the swing circle to turn a bit over 180 degrees.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/prf9zr4rb/IMG_2563.jpg)
and a top view, showing how the hoist chain can pass through the center of the whole assembly:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/caibguk53/IMG_2554.jpg)
That completes the swing circle parts - need to rework the temporary base to allow this to sit on it, so I can assemble it with the main boom and dipper. There will still need to be a support for the boom, since the upper guys can't go on until the A-frame is made. The base of the A-frame bolts to the vertical plate on the back of the pivot base. The A-frame is connected to the, pivot base. The pivot base is connected to the....  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 11, 2018, 11:22:25 PM
I see the words but I don't see any pics...

I see some text where the pics should be but only in this reply!!!

Pete

But the pic text doesn't show when my reply is posted??????


Wrapping up the swing circle pivot base, drilled and bored the hole for the pivot bearing center post:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3s8vchy6v/IMG_2550.jpg)
then bored the larger hole for the bearing to sit in:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/57ag186zr/IMG_2551.jpg)
The bearing itself was turned out of some bearing bronze rod, first turned the center disc and the larger post on the top end,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gwefp7l3r/IMG_2552.jpg)
flipped the part around and turned the lower end and drilled/bored the center hole for the hoist chain to pass through:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/prf9zqpbr/IMG_2553.jpg)
Here is how it sits in the base, partway out of the counterbored recess:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/g6vncucuf/IMG_2556.jpg)
Last part is the spacer plate, basically a very large washer. Started by boring a hole in an offcut of 1/16" flat steel (left over from main boom sides),
(https://s5.postimg.cc/b884yae6f/IMG_2557.jpg)
then mounted that on an arbor (fit nicely on my gear cutter arbor so did not have to make a new one) to turn the outside round and to size:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8qwdr24kn/IMG_2559.jpg)
Test fit on the pivot bearing post:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/s8r170gxz/IMG_2560.jpg)
Here are the parts assembled, upside down to show the base and pivot. It allows the swing circle to turn a bit over 180 degrees.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/prf9zr4rb/IMG_2563.jpg)
and a top view, showing how the hoist chain can pass through the center of the whole assembly:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/caibguk53/IMG_2554.jpg)
That completes the swing circle parts - need to rework the temporary base to allow this to sit on it, so I can assemble it with the main boom and dipper. There will still need to be a support for the boom, since the upper guys can't go on until the A-frame is made. The base of the A-frame bolts to the vertical plate on the back of the pivot base. The A-frame is connected to the, pivot base. The pivot base is connected to the....  :Lol:
All showing here, including in your reply. Time to reboot your PC? Out the window if necessary!

My photo hosting site, postimage.org, is having some issues with the domain, and had to switch some of thier servers, could be you need to clear your ip address cache. Reboot may be simplist.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 11, 2018, 11:27:57 PM
Okay, got the holes in the base drilled:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ompt8jn87/IMG_2564.jpg)
and got the wood support base updated to hold it till the A-frame is made. All the parts so far are posing for a nice family shot:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/iyjihnybb/IMG_2566.jpg)
Now THATS a good excuse (like I need one) to go warm up some cookies, sit back, and admire the progress!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on April 12, 2018, 12:24:12 AM
reboot.... no joy. how do i clear an ip cash???

all other pics in this and other threads show....????

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 12, 2018, 12:55:38 AM
reboot.... no joy. how do i clear an ip cash???

all other pics in this and other threads show....????

Pete
Very odd.   :headscratch:


Depending on your OS version, method varies. Try these instructions.   
https://confluence1.cpanel.net/plugins/servlet/mobile?contentId=2434314#content/view/2434314
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on April 12, 2018, 01:02:50 AM
Now the pics show!! And I didn't do anything!!  Aahhhhh...I hate it when that happens.   :killcomputer:

Chris, that has to be one of the most complex and beautiful models I have seen in a long time.

 :NotWorthy: :praise2:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 12, 2018, 01:16:40 AM
Now the pics show!! And I didn't do anything!!  Aahhhhh...I hate it when that happens.

I knew it was you all along.  ;D
It's the old 'not me' excuse.  :lolb:

P.S. I hate it too.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 12, 2018, 01:26:02 AM
Now the pics show!! And I didn't do anything!!  Aahhhhh...I hate it when that happens.   :killcomputer:

Chris, that has to be one of the most complex and beautiful models I have seen in a long time.

 :NotWorthy: :praise2:

Pete
Thanks Pete!  Glad the internet gremlins left. I am having a lot of fun with this one.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: fumopuc on April 12, 2018, 04:59:52 AM
Hi Chris, it is pure pleasure to admire your progress.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on April 12, 2018, 05:38:00 AM
Gotta agree with Zee here, just awesome!  :popcorn:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: mklotz on April 12, 2018, 03:41:25 PM
Now THATS a good excuse (like I need one) to go warm up some cookies, sit back, and admire the progress!

You actually "sit back" from time to time?!  At the rate you're turning out fantastic work, I have trouble imagining you stationary.

Everything so far is simply stunning.  When you're done, be sure to submit the work to the Craftsmanship Museum.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 12, 2018, 04:46:10 PM
Thanks very much guys!

And yes, I spend quite a bit of time sitting back, relaxing, reading, watching TV, napping. Quite easy when the shop elves do all the work... wait, should not have admitted that!   :shrug:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 12, 2018, 08:59:29 PM
With the swing cricle parts done, time to start on the A-frame base, which is a set of large castings that hold the top of the main boom up in the air.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4smlohnjr/Turntable_And_Derrick.png)
The main cross beams are too large to get out of one piece of metal, at least the sizes I have, so I drew it up full size on card stock and worked out that I could make it out of 3 chunks of 1" square bar.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/urvka5ngn/IMG_2570.jpg)
I put those in for a stress relief bake this afternoon, will get them bolted together so they can be silver soldered and then milled down to shape.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on April 12, 2018, 11:22:46 PM
I went back to see if the slew chain was fixed/bolted/pinned  :hammerbash: at the central position to the slew ring so to give positive slew motion

When I got back to April the 9th, all the images are just an  X ....tried logging out & back in...but still the same :cussing:  ...server related?

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 12, 2018, 11:27:46 PM
It's been 2 and half hours since your last post, Chris.
Are you sitting back again?  :ROFL:

[EDIT] Don't you just love the pressure this forum's members put on people?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 13, 2018, 01:24:09 AM
I went back to see if the slew chain was fixed/bolted/pinned  :hammerbash: at the central position to the slew ring so to give positive slew motion

When I got back to April the 9th, all the images are just an  X ....tried logging out & back in...but still the same :cussing:  ...server related?

Derek
PostImage.org has this notice on their home page at the moment:
Quote
postimg.ORG domain is locked by Registry, no prior notice. While we hope to resolve the issue, we chose postimg.CC as our new home.
 Please update codes embedded in your websites.

For now, I am not going to change anything on my posts, hope they get it fixed. The newer stuff seems to work, hope I don't have to change THEM after their fix.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 13, 2018, 01:25:14 AM
It's been 2 and half hours since your last post, Chris.
Are you sitting back again?  :ROFL:

[EDIT] Don't you just love the pressure this forum's members put on people?
Nope, was not sitting back, was off at my pistol league shoot. Then I got home, and am sitting back!   :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on April 13, 2018, 09:29:22 AM
Thanks very much guys!

And yes, I spend quite a bit of time sitting back, relaxing, reading, watching TV, napping. Quite easy when the shop elves do all the work... wait, should not have admitted that!   :shrug:

Some of us realised that was the case long ago . . . no single person could possibly turn out work as fast as that, and to such a high standard  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 13, 2018, 03:50:15 PM
Thanks very much guys!

And yes, I spend quite a bit of time sitting back, relaxing, reading, watching TV, napping. Quite easy when the shop elves do all the work... wait, should not have admitted that!   :shrug:

Some of us realised that was the case long ago . . . no single person could possibly turn out work as fast as that, and to such a high standard  :cheers:

 :embarassed:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 13, 2018, 03:57:03 PM
Got the sections of the A frame sill drilled and tapped for some 1" 4-40 screws, through from underneath and stopping short of where the slots will be from the top. The screw heads were countersunk in so they won't show, going to leave them in place after silver soldering.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5lc8keidj/IMG_2571.jpg)
For wide surfaces to be joined, I learned (from Kozo's books and elsewhere) to make some dimples with a punch to keep the milled surfaces just  apart, to give the silver solder a gap to wick through. So, made a punch mark in each corner of the blocks before screwing them together.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/icqeqwkfr/IMG_2572.jpg)
The two holes nearer to the center are the screw holes. I assembled the parts, fluxed them with some thinned Tenacity 5 - could see the watery flux wick into the joints, then set up the torch with one of the larger nozzles and did the soldering - lots of mass to heat up, so it will take a while to cool off to start machining. I've also made up the pattern for the beam that bolts underneath this one, and holds the lower ends of the track holders - that one does not need any parts soldered on, just some of it turned into swarf.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 13, 2018, 08:59:31 PM
 :zap:

Well, some crappy news from PostImage.org, my photo hosting site. As some of you had noticed, my earlier pics on this thread disapeared recently when Postimage lost the .org domain name (I don't know how or why), and they had to switch to a .cc ending on the site. Just heard back from them on a question I sent in, here it is:

Quote
Hello, Chris Rueby
Seems .ORG lost forever. Sorry about that. You need to edit posts and replace "postimg.org" to "postimg.cc" Easy way is update database or use search&replace plugins. Please ask forum admins to do it. Please do not hesitate to contact us if you have any further questions. Best regards, Postimage support

So, I need to get the image links in my posts updated, will be looking into that to get it all back again.

 :cussing:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 13, 2018, 09:08:03 PM
Back in the shop after getting the A-from sill silver soldered and cleaned up. First step was to take the part down to thickness - the bar stock was 1", finished part is .783". The corners of the square bar were rounded, so I took some off both sides to square them up. After it was all down to thickness, the second side was taken down more, leaving a raised section where it butts up to the pivot base casting - they cast a raised section in and milled it flat, so this emulates that shape. It does not show up well in the photos, only .031" tall and blends in to all the other shiny metal. As you can see in this photo, I milled it when clamped to the table, so the places where the clamps were had to be taken down in a second set of passes.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6szd3yxif/IMG_2573.jpg)
Here it is all thinned down - hard to see but the raised section is there in the middle.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/b24365g7b/IMG_2574.jpg)
Then set it upright and milled the recesses in the ends, and took the uprights to width. Where it will curve into the base is left rough, that will be done on the rotary table.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5qp6lfmev/IMG_2575.jpg)
Then took the center section down to finished height:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xe1vzjn13/IMG_2576.jpg)
Next will be to cut in the openings in the uprights where the A-frame sits in.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 13, 2018, 09:55:31 PM
Bummer on the pics. I've yet to find a host site that I feel I can depend on for years to come.
I'd prefer being able to post pics along with text rather than use attachments.

That's one hunk of metal!
Looking forward to seeing the rotary table work.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 14, 2018, 12:38:57 AM
Bummer on the pics. I've yet to find a host site that I feel I can depend on for years to come.
I'd prefer being able to post pics along with text rather than use attachments.

That's one hunk of metal!
Looking forward to seeing the rotary table work.
I emailed with Ade, he is going to see if he can do a batch substitute on the paths for me, hope it works out. I can't complain too much, given that the hosting is free. Got to take a look again at the site that he set up for this forum's users when PhotoSuckit got silly - I had so many already on PostImage that I didn't want to switch at that point.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 14, 2018, 12:49:43 AM
Zee, you were right about this being a large chunk of metal - it really came home when it came time to drill the pivot pin holes for the A frame in the ends of it. Too tall for my mills, the woodworking drill press I have could take it but it is no where near accurate enough, so I did some experimenting on the lathe. The old Sherline mill vise, mounted on the cross slide, with just the right stack of parallels in it to line up the part worked out. Just. First used the center drill to line it up and spot the hole,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5j1joww0n/IMG_2577.jpg)
then switched to the 1/4" drill and made the holes. Glad I have the long-bed version of the lathe!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6lbq7gu9j/IMG_2579.jpg)
I'm not sure how I am going to round the ends of the flanges around the holes, it would be way too much unsupported stock to stand it on the rotary table, and not sure if it would fit on the Z axis anyway, so will probably take the bulk of the corners off with the sander and finish with a file. With the cross holes drilled, I went back to the mill and cut the slots for the A frame bases. I am always leary of milling deep slots with unsupported sides, so I took a number of shallow passes till it was down to about 0.050" from breaking through at the bottom, using a mill thinner than the finished slot. Then, took passes on each side of the slot to get the sides down to thickness, and then took the last pass on the bottom to break it through and out to match the sides. All went well, fortunately.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ahp23g7jb/IMG_2580.jpg)
Here is the sill beam so far - still need to round the tops of the slot sides, and mill the inside arcs where the sides meet the cross section. Then drill all the mount holes from the pivot base, more holes in the sides later when the track holder brackets get made. This beam ties together a lot of parts at the front of the machine.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7nlwq0ksn/IMG_2581.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dan Rowe on April 14, 2018, 01:03:57 AM
Chris, I would use file buttons or file guides for rounding the ends. Much simpler than risking a complex setup.

Nice work as always, it looks like you did some torch work on the chain, how is that working?

Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 14, 2018, 01:25:48 AM
Chris, I would use file buttons or file guides for rounding the ends. Much simpler than risking a complex setup.

Nice work as always, it looks like you did some torch work on the chain, how is that working?

Dan
When I was soldering the pivot base I torched on the chain. It got rid of the shine but would not go as black as I was expecting. Still, looks much better than the original surface. I am guessing that it had some sort of chrome or other plating on it.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 14, 2018, 05:15:58 PM
Next up on As The End Mill Turns... 

Set up the sill beam on the rotary table, with a piece of card stock  between it and the table to keep from damaging the table. Took some fiddling to get the position right with the cutter just above the part, rotating the table and tapping the part until the tip of the end mill teeth would just follow the arc, and tangent to the straight sections at both ends. Once that spot was found, the clamps were tightened. I moved the table over to the left till it cleared the part  and the cutter was lowered down.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wu13lsmp3/IMG_2582.jpg)
Then made several light passes, moving the table back to the right between cuts, till the arc met the straight sections.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/hlb6810qf/IMG_2583.jpg)
Did the same on the other end, then set it up in the vise to square off the bottoms of the slots.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gj0zphpmv/IMG_2585.jpg)
All that is left to shape is the rounded over tips of the slots. As suggested by a couple of you, made a 3/4" set of filing buttons from some steel rod, drilled for a bolt to hold them in place. Then took off the bulk of the material with the belt sander, and took it down the rest of the way with a flat file.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/n9hgyxs87/IMG_2586.jpg)
Here is the part so far, ready to drill the mounting holes:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gvsdvofmf/IMG_2587.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 14, 2018, 08:36:23 PM
Finishing up the sill beam - laid out and drilled/tapped the mounting holes to match the ones in the pivot base. Also drilled two holes in the back face to take posts that will run back and support the chain wheel guides later on.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wez0k3fhj/IMG_2589.jpg)
Cut and installed a set of 2-56 studs:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mufdx7xvb/IMG_2590.jpg)
and thanks to careful layout, it fits!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/afslwwe2v/IMG_2592.jpg)
It bolts to the back of the pivot base, and sits behind the swing circle. The A-frame will extend up from the ends of this beam, leaning forward so the top of the A-frame is centered on the pivot of the swing circle.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4rmb60p5z/IMG_2593.jpg)
Parts so far:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/njy69lduf/IMG_2594.jpg)
Getting close to being able to install the guy rods that support the top of the main boom.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on April 15, 2018, 01:30:59 PM
You should bring that to NAMES this weekend.   :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 15, 2018, 02:17:33 PM
You should bring that to NAMES this weekend.   :popcorn:
Wish I could, other commitments here this week. Looking forward to seeing pics from the show though!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 15, 2018, 02:47:58 PM
You should bring that to NAMES this weekend.   :popcorn:

Wish I could, other commitments here this week.

Bring it to ZMS. They'll wait and will provide a special display spot. They give free cookies too.

ZMS - Zee's Model Shop
A non-profit, non-existent show for models that are never returned.

It's an unknown and unpopular show so help it out and give get sucked in donate!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 15, 2018, 04:20:19 PM
You should bring that to NAMES this weekend.   :popcorn:

Wish I could, other commitments here this week.

Bring it to ZMS. They'll wait and will provide a special display spot. They give free cookies too.

ZMS - Zee's Model Shop
A non-profit, non-existent show for models that are never returned.

It's an unknown and unpopular show so help it out and give get sucked in donate!


 :ROFL:


Lets see, how to respond to that generous offer...


Got it!  The ultimate insult to an engineer:  "Sounds great Zee, you know, uou ought to be in marketing!!"


Kidding! Just kidding!  Put down the chainsaw....    :lolb:


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 15, 2018, 09:15:36 PM
Made up a much simpler part today, the lower cross beam that carries the bottom link of the track holders. This is the part in the larger assembly:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5lqxspzxj/Track_Holder_Bottom_Beam.jpg)
Started by thinning down some square stock to overall size, then notched in the top to form the arch:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bmompaeon/IMG_2595.jpg)
Got the rotary table out again (getting a LOT of use for it on this project) and milled in the arches top and bottom. The center points of the curves are not in the same place, so it took two setups.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ljznid9fr/IMG_2597.jpg)
Drilled and rounded over the ends for the pivot pins that hold the track holder links.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5lqxs7zs7/IMG_2599.jpg)
Here is the part, complete except for the mounting holes where it bolts to the frame I-beams.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bmompau47/IMG_2600.jpg)
Next up is the set of box beams that go between this part and the A-frame sill.

Oh, and in the earlier post where I was talking about the welded vs riveted connections - found some new info there. In one of the catalogs, when discussing the way the main frames are made, it states that the long front-to-back I beams were formed by rolling, like I showed the diagram for, and the shorter cross beams and connecting beams were actually cast as one piece. So the smaller (still quite large!) box beams in the illustration at the top of this post would have been cast parts. That all fits with how I was seeing end flanges on the long I-beams riveted in place, where on the cross beams they are formed into the castings, not welded. Does not appear that much at all was welded on this generation of shovel.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on April 15, 2018, 11:09:26 PM
Are those parts brass, or just a function of the camera and ambient light?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 16, 2018, 12:17:34 AM
Are those parts brass, or just a function of the camera and ambient light?
The A frame sill and bottom beam are both brass, I have some thick bar stock big enough to make them in brass, none that size in steel, and didn't feel like going to all the trouble to square up round bar.


This evening I started making the center box beam, it's out of two layers of stainless flat bar for the inner core, the outer flanges that extend left and right will be some 1/16" flat tool steel. All will be silver soldered up. Just got the stock roughed out so far, pics as soon as there is something recognizable.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 16, 2018, 11:01:19 PM
Okay, now that the A-frame sill (green arrow) and track holder bottom beam (red arrow) are done, time to start on the box beam  (blue arrow) that sits between them and connects them to the main frame I-beams. The gap in the center allows the hoist chain to go back to the winding drum in the cab, and there is a sheave with its front edge in the middle of the hole coming down from the swing circle base, to take the chain and turn it back horizontal.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/41m4100br/Track_Holder_Middle_Beam.jpg)
This is a big casting in the real machine, I am going to make it up from a thick plate in the center that spans the opening for the hoist chain, and four outer plates that extend out and provide a place for the I-beams to bolt to.
I did not have a piece of 5/8" thick steel bar, but did have some 5/16" stock, so I made two of these pieces to go in the center, stacked to make the 5/8" thick stock needed. When wrapped with some 1/16" flat bar, it will be the 3/4" thick that the overall part is. First milled the bar to length/width, then sawed and chain drilled the center to remove the bulk of the metal. The sides of the slot were milled to final width, the arc at the top will be cleaned up after silver soldering on the other bars.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ixkn8kol3/IMG_2601.jpg)
The 1/16" bars were cut and milled to size, then drilled for some temporary screws to hold everything in alignment for silver soldering. Here is the assembly with one side removed to show how it is constructed. Tomorrow I'll take it out and silver solder up all the joints, then mill the slot and top arc to shape.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ixkn8kwav/IMG_2602.jpg)
Lot of work for a part that can only be seen in the final model from underneath, but it is the key to holding the whole front end of the machine together.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 17, 2018, 06:43:13 PM
This morning I got the parts for the box beam all silver soldered up, so last machining steps were to mill the final opening in the center, where the hoist chain goes through, and to drill the mounting holes top and bottom to attach to the other beams. There are still a bunch of holes to drill in the side for the I-beams leading out from this part.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4292xsqzb/IMG_2603.jpg)
Part so far:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ggvuy4q7b/IMG_2604.jpg)
Getting close to time for some paint the the recent parts - swing circle on down, plus the main boom...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 17, 2018, 06:45:56 PM
Always watching  ;D Carefully.  ;D
Get my drift?

What's that material under the part?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 17, 2018, 06:58:36 PM
Always watching  ;D Carefully.  ;D
Get my drift?

What's that material under the part?
Thought I felt someone watching.... Spooky!   :paranoia:   Gotta talk with the elf security patrols... They must be goofing off and playing video games again!

As with several of the earlier parts, I put a piece of card stock under the part before clamping it to the table so the end mill could cut all the way down without damaging the table top, it gets chewed a little, so it looks like cotten in the photo. I use a lot of the stuff for everything from this to patterns and templates for models - buy it by the pack from one of the school/hobby places, comes in sheets about 8x12. Same stuff they used to put in dress shirts when they packaged them. Been a long time since I bought dress shirts (retirement meant t-shirts!).
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on April 17, 2018, 07:24:45 PM
Just fantastic work Dog your the man that is some of the best fabrication work I have seen. Keep the piccies coming Chris love it.... :praise2:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on April 17, 2018, 07:50:55 PM
Quietly following along in utter amazement  :NotWorthy: :praise2:. Awesome work Chris. On the subject of welded construction; I have an early thirties DC welder made by PH Hanson, of P&H Cranes. From my research I’ve found that P&H hired a Mr. Hanson to develop their arc welding program from their electric motor division. They developed this to replace the riveted construction of their shovels as the terrain became harder and more rocky, which led to rivets failing. So, I’m thinking welded construction had to begin in the very early thirties  :shrug:. Say hey to the elves.

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 17, 2018, 08:29:52 PM
Just fantastic work Dog your the man that is some of the best fabrication work I have seen. Keep the piccies coming Chris love it.... :praise2:


 :drinking-41:
Don


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 17, 2018, 08:31:43 PM
Quietly following along in utter amazement  :NotWorthy: :praise2: . Awesome work Chris. On the subject of welded construction; I have an early thirties DC welder made by PH Hanson, of P&H Cranes. From my research I’ve found that P&H hired a Mr. Hanson to develop their arc welding program from their electric motor division. They developed this to replace the riveted construction of their shovels as the terrain became harder and more rocky, which led to rivets failing. So, I’m thinking welded construction had to begin in the very early thirties  :shrug: . Say hey to the elves.

Cletus
Good info. Thanks!


Hey from the elves.   :)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 17, 2018, 10:17:59 PM
Another absolute ick day outside, back to snow again, so wandered back into the shop to start prepping the stock for the four outside box beams around the current assembly (these beams connect everything to the four main frame I beams, so the front of the machine will have a total of 6 large beams side by side where the rest has just 4).
Got the blocks cut and trimmed to length and width, and have started milling out the recess in the sides of the first one. The total depth of the recesses will be 0.200" on each side, am making a .100 depth cut per side, flipping it over to prevent warping since I didn't stress relief this material, and repeating till its down to depth. This is one of the few times I've ever run the shop vac to draw off chips as I go since it was filling up the block, could not tell where the cutter was. Here is the first block after one pass per side.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ia3d06lc7/IMG_2605.jpg)
Not sure if I've mentioned before, on my shop vacs (small portable units) I run Dust Deputy cyclonic seperators on the input hoses. These sit on top of a 5 gallon bucket, and seperate out the chips/dust from the air stream, so nothing actually makes it into the shop vac, even very fine wood sanding dust. Only time I've ever gotten material into the vac itself is if I let the bucket fill up and the material backed up into the seperator (this happened in my wood shop, the unit would have wieghed a heck of a lot if it had that much metal in it!). When the bucket is due for emptying, just remove the bucket, take it out and dump into a bag. I have the buckets and the vacs bolted to a common platform on wheels. Amazing units, no need to clean or change filters any more with them. No connection to that company at all, just a personal recomendation.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 18, 2018, 03:14:10 PM
Got both sides of the rest of the short box beams roughed in this morning - the center areas are to depth, the edges are left thick for the next step.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3qwohstlz/IMG_2606.jpg)
Switched from the larger end mill to a small ball end mill, and took passes down the sides to narrow up the corners plus thin the sides down to dimension. The ball end leaves a nice radius in the lower corners too.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wgjkefpw7/IMG_2607.jpg)
First one complete, showing where it goes in relation to the other parts:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6kztv93hz/IMG_2608.jpg)
One down, three to go...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on April 18, 2018, 03:45:57 PM
Hi Chris,
 Looking good! the cyclones are great aren't they for keeping rubbish out of the vacuum cleaner. I brought in a Clear View one some years ago to use on the bead blaster, works very well. Always fun to run it when cutting wood...( Woops, sorry for swearing Jo!) ....watching the chips for for a spin

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jo on April 18, 2018, 03:51:54 PM
Always fun to run it when cutting wood...( Woops, sorry for swearing Jo!) ....

Brown stuff :stickpoke:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 18, 2018, 04:09:44 PM
Always fun to run it when cutting wood...( Woops, sorry for swearing Jo!) ....

Brown stuff :stickpoke:
So, yes I have one in the metal shop, and one in the woo... um, I mean, Brown Stuff shop!   :slap:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 19, 2018, 01:24:13 AM
Finishing up the box beams under the A-frame - drilled the mounting bolt holes. Set up the locations on the first one, with the part indexed off the back outer corner of the vise, so I could switch to the rest of the parts and just go to the same locations on the handwheels to drill each hole.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/zbsirdgfr/IMG_2610.jpg)
And drilled corresponding holes in each side of the center arched beam, indexing off the inside edge of the slot.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/n9x4x8ex3/IMG_2611.jpg)
Those holes were all tapped, and short lengths of threaded rod cut on the chop saw with an abrasive cutoff blade to make the studs. All is ready for assembly then paint...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/69e8okhbb/IMG_2612.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 19, 2018, 01:38:11 AM
Amazing work Chris. Can't give the elves all the credit.

What would you estimate as the percent completed?
Seems like you have a long way to go.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 19, 2018, 01:51:23 AM
Amazing work Chris. Can't give the elves all the credit.

What would you estimate as the percent completed?
Seems like you have a long way to go.
Yeah, the elves let me help now and then...   :Lol:

10 percent complete maybe, at most?  :shrug: Probably less than that done. More like 5. Very long way to go, and to misquote the movie, a long time to get there!

Someone here suggested at the start that I begin with the dipper end, that has worked out great since it is obvious what the model will be. I had originally thought to start with the tracks and build up, glad I didn't.
There is still the A-frame, 3 feet or so of main frames and floor, cab frames and cab shell walls/roof and doors, 4 steam engines, boiler, ash dump, 4 track assemblies, 3 big gear trains, drive shafts, pipework, all the control linkages, steering linkages, lots more stuff! This is the equivalent of a whole batch of projects.

Going to be part of a presentation to one of the local groups to kick off the fundraising for the restoration work on the real one in a couple weeks, showing the model and plans at that event. If winter ever ends, will hopefully be helping out with some of the restoration work soon, want to take tracings of the bucket teeth to make a replacement tip for the missing one, and probably will make a new wood raised floor for the operator station at the front of the cab, which is all rotted out and caving in.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on April 19, 2018, 01:52:11 AM
Amazing work Chris. Can't give the elves all the credit.

What would you estimate as the percent completed?
Seems like you have a long way to go.

Heck, he's just working on the teeth and mouth of this monster. He still has to build alllll the rest of the body!! :LittleDevil:

A grand project, it is!

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 19, 2018, 01:53:12 AM
Amazing work Chris. Can't give the elves all the credit.

What would you estimate as the percent completed?
Seems like you have a long way to go.

Heck, he's just working on the teeth and mouth of this monster. He still has to build alllll the rest of the body!! :LittleDevil:

A grand project, it is!

Pete
Oh, yeah, and have to make some sort of cart or rolling cases just to move this beastie!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 19, 2018, 01:54:51 AM
That's what I thought. Huge project.
Let's hope Chris doesn't run out of cookies.

Although...I believe he's losing some elves given the ones showing up at my place.  :ROFL:
Might slow him down.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 19, 2018, 01:58:49 AM
That's what I thought. Huge project.
Let's hope Chris doesn't run out of cookies.

Although...I believe he's losing some elves given the ones showing up at my place.  :ROFL:
Might slow him down.
Think I found why they are leaving. They noticed that I have only two chocolate chip cookies left, and went to raid Zee's cupboards. Got to make up another big batch soon!! 
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 19, 2018, 02:05:22 AM
That's what I thought. Huge project.
Let's hope Chris doesn't run out of cookies.

Although...I believe he's losing some elves given the ones showing up at my place.  :ROFL:
Might slow him down.
Think I found why they are leaving. They noticed that I have only two chocolate chip cookies left, and went to raid Zee's cupboards. Got to make up another big batch soon!!

Good luck with that.  ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 19, 2018, 02:20:18 AM
That's what I thought. Huge project.
Let's hope Chris doesn't run out of cookies.

Although...I believe he's losing some elves given the ones showing up at my place.  :ROFL:
Might slow him down.
Think I found why they are leaving. They noticed that I have only two chocolate chip cookies left, and went to raid Zee's cupboards. Got to make up another big batch soon!!

Good luck with that.  ;D
Just wait till they get drunk on your stinky hoppies, and throw a big party. You'll be UPS'ing them back here!


 :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 19, 2018, 04:03:14 AM
Amazing work Chris. Can't give the elves all the credit.

What would you estimate as the percent completed?
Seems like you have a long way to go.
Yeah, the elves let me help now and then...   :Lol:

10 percent complete maybe, at most?  :shrug: Probably less than that done. More like 5. Very long way to go, and to misquote the movie, a long time to get there!

Someone here suggested at the start that I begin with the dipper end, that has worked out great since it is obvious what the model will be. I had originally thought to start with the tracks and build up, glad I didn't.
There is still the A-frame, 3 feet or so of main frames and floor, cab frames and cab shell walls/roof and doors, 4 steam engines, boiler, ash dump, 4 track assemblies, 3 big gear trains, drive shafts, pipework, all the control linkages, steering linkages, lots more stuff! This is the equivalent of a whole batch of projects.

Going to be part of a presentation to one of the local groups to kick off the fundraising for the restoration work on the real one in a couple weeks, showing the model and plans at that event. If winter ever ends, will hopefully be helping out with some of the restoration work soon, want to take tracings of the bucket teeth to make a replacement tip for the missing one, and probably will make a new wood raised floor for the operator station at the front of the cab, which is all rotted out and caving in.
Just realized, more like 4-1/2 steam engines, the main hoist drum is engaged with a band clutch by a steam operated piston via a manually moved slide valve, essentially a single cylinder engine with a crankshaft that only rotates a few degrees. Fun part is that the cylinder is mounted on a gear spoke, steam comes in through the gear axle. Wild stuff.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 19, 2018, 04:46:20 PM
Got the subframe assembly bolted up this morning - a few tedious places getting in with a tiny wrench to get the nuts/bolts tightened down a facet at a time but it all fit up nicely. Here are a few pics of the pieces:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bue5f05nr/IMG_2617.jpg)
Swing circle bottom view with pivot bearing in place:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/weizdi0uf/IMG_2624.jpg)
Subframe and swing circle all together - there is over 180 degrees of swing angle.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ebpwm9x9z/IMG_2623.jpg)
I need to remake the wood base to hold this assembly so I can stand it all upright again. Also going to get started on painting today!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on April 19, 2018, 05:04:18 PM
That last picture is a great shot Chris!
Those elves have been busy!......Have you figured out there angle yet, they have got to be up to something!
Wonder if they've got a hot line to Zee's shop....

Shows how mush work you have put in....keep it up!

Note to self, need to contract more land for  :popcorn: this year!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 19, 2018, 06:13:21 PM
That last picture is a great shot Chris!
Those elves have been busy!......Have you figured out there angle yet, they have got to be up to something!
Wonder if they've got a hot line to Zee's shop....

Shows how mush work you have put in....keep it up!

Note to self, need to contract more land for  :popcorn: this year!

Cheers Kerrin
Thanks Kerrin!  Yup, mission Elf-Infiltration is complete. I sent a carload of them down to Pennsylvania to lure Carl into letting them in, they loaded up every other tap, die, drill, and cutter size (gotta leave him with something) and brought them back to me to use as ransom.
 :mischief:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 19, 2018, 06:17:36 PM
Got the new base made, that will hold it up from the sub-frame assembly. Now the hoist chain can go down through the middle of the swing circle and back through the frames as it will in the final model - still need to make the small chain sheave to let the chain turn the corner from vertical to horizontal, that goes halfway to  the front end of the side beams. Also about time to paint things up...
Here are some pictures:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6hyhsard3/IMG_2627.jpg)
The track holders will attach to the end of the lower cross beam, and up at the side of the A-frame cross beam.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/77ha4nzmf/IMG_2628.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/j9cnytgkn/IMG_2631.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/z7ldoyiif/IMG_2634.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on April 19, 2018, 06:27:05 PM
Even BETTER photos!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 19, 2018, 07:07:26 PM
Fantastic set of pictures. Really shows the complexity and amount of work.  :ThumbsUp:

Yup, mission Elf-Infiltration is complete. I sent a carload of them down to Pennsylvania to lure Carl into letting them in, they loaded up every other tap, die, drill, and cutter size (gotta leave him with something) and brought them back to me to use as ransom.

Nothing missing here. They must have raided some other shop. I feel sorry for the poor soul your incompetent elves raided.  ;D

Note to all members...Apparently Chris employs/uses elves who lack good and ethical character. What does that say?

 ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 19, 2018, 07:16:14 PM
Fantastic set of pictures. Really shows the complexity and amount of work.  :ThumbsUp:

Yup, mission Elf-Infiltration is complete. I sent a carload of them down to Pennsylvania to lure Carl into letting them in, they loaded up every other tap, die, drill, and cutter size (gotta leave him with something) and brought them back to me to use as ransom.

Nothing missing here. They must have raided some other shop. I feel sorry for the poor soul your incompetent elves raided.  ;D

Note to all members...Apparently Chris employs/uses elves who lack good and ethical character. What does that say?

 ;D
Hey, what do you expect, me and the shop elves used to work for the Big Guy way up NorthPole way, til the, um, 'incident' - big food fight in the toy shops, big mess, a certain reindeer got a bloody nose (turned THAT into a big story, but do WE get credit? NOOOO...), thats when we went independant!

 :Jester:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: AOG on April 19, 2018, 09:13:02 PM
I have a quick question. What is that contraption connected to your shopvac?

Tony
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 19, 2018, 09:23:34 PM
I have a quick question. What is that contraption connected to your shopvac?

Tony


Thats the cyclone seperator, mentioned in an earlier post.
Quote
Not sure if I've mentioned before, on my shop vacs (small portable units) I run Dust Deputy cyclonic seperators on the input hoses. These sit on top of a 5 gallon bucket, and seperate out the chips/dust from the air stream, so nothing actually makes it into the shop vac, even very fine wood sanding dust. Only time I've ever gotten material into the vac itself is if I let the bucket fill up and the material backed up into the seperator (this happened in my wood shop, the unit would have wieghed a heck of a lot if it had that much metal in it!). When the bucket is due for emptying, just remove the bucket, take it out and dump into a bag. I have the buckets and the vacs bolted to a common platform on wheels. Amazing units, no need to clean or change filters any more with them. No connection to that company at all, just a personal recomendation.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Gas_mantle on April 19, 2018, 09:35:21 PM
Looking great Chris, a lot of skilled work going into making it  :ThumbsUp:

Is the intention to run it on steam ?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 19, 2018, 09:58:09 PM
Looking great Chris, a lot of skilled work going into making it  :ThumbsUp:

Is the intention to run it on steam ?
Hoping to. Have to see how much steam volume the engines draw, the main hoist engine is fairly large, though the run times will be short per engine, not sure how that works out with stop/starts on multiple engines. According to the team from Steam Town, these shovels had a boiler much smaller than a loco of similar size. So, won't have a good idea till the engines are made and I can test on air to see usage.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Gas_mantle on April 19, 2018, 10:02:18 PM
It's going to be an impressive model running on steam :-)

What size are the engines ?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 19, 2018, 10:20:11 PM
It's going to be an impressive model running on steam :-)

What size are the engines ?
Hoist is 12x16" twin, swing and crowds are 8x8" twins, steering is 6x6" twin on the original. Model is 1/16th of that. Original boiler is 5'x15'.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Gas_mantle on April 19, 2018, 10:26:39 PM
I guess by having multiple engines they are a modest size and wont be huge on the finished model if they are at the same scale as the structure.

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ozzie46 on April 20, 2018, 01:13:34 AM
WOW   :pinkelephant: :pinkelephant: :pinkelephant:

There's a King's ransom in brass and nuts and bolts in that thing!!

Been watching from the beginning, first-time posting

Ron
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 20, 2018, 02:27:18 AM
WOW   :pinkelephant: :pinkelephant: :pinkelephant:

There's a King's ransom in brass and nuts and bolts in that thing!!

Been watching from the beginning, first-time posting

Ron
Hi Ron, nice to have you along.  I bought a big bag of the 2-56 nuts, and for the studs am cutting them from 3 foot lengths of threaded rod from McMaster Carr, lots cheaper than cutting down screws. I am purposely Not tracking costs on this model, going to be a bunch by the time its done for sure. I weighed it this afternoon, about 20 pounds of parts so far. Final model is gonna be quite heavy.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 20, 2018, 02:28:55 AM
I guess by having multiple engines they are a modest size and wont be huge on the finished model if they are at the same scale as the structure.
The main engines will be 3/4" bore by 1" stroke, not so huge.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on April 20, 2018, 05:50:14 AM
Wow, Chris!  Great progress.  Really enjoying watching this come together!  :popcorn:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jo on April 20, 2018, 06:45:26 AM
for the studs am cutting them from 3 foot lengths of threaded rod from McMaster Carr

 :toilet_claw:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jasonb on April 20, 2018, 07:16:31 AM
Must admit on the smaller engines I'll thread up some rod and make the studs from that and loctite the nuts on so they can be put in like bolts and all have the same amount of thread showing. When the stud may only be holding a part that is 1 x diameter of the thread the area left plain would be so minimal it's not worth trying to leave, longer ones like those on a valve chest will be done with a plain middle section as they are easier to hold and it would tale longer to thread the whole thing..

Also makes for good progress and you can get the studs made and fitted rather than having a load of engines sitting about almost finished but just needing the studs ;)

It's coming together very well Chris.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 20, 2018, 01:55:31 PM
for the studs am cutting them from 3 foot lengths of threaded rod from McMaster Carr

 :toilet_claw:
Ah. So Jo would rather hand thread both end of 450 studs for the booms. Noted.   :shrug:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jo on April 20, 2018, 02:19:38 PM
for the studs am cutting them from 3 foot lengths of threaded rod from McMaster Carr

 :toilet_claw:
Ah. So Jo would rather hand thread both end of 450 studs for the booms. Noted.   :shrug:

Been there, done that on the DTC amongst others: I am not a lady who aims for adequate :hellno:. I only woose like Jason on studs under 8BA (2.2mm = 85 thou dia). 

Jo
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 20, 2018, 04:22:06 PM
for the studs am cutting them from 3 foot lengths of threaded rod from McMaster Carr

 :toilet_claw:
Ah. So Jo would rather hand thread both end of 450 studs for the booms. Noted.   :shrug:

Been there, done that on the DTC amongst others: I am not a lady who aims for adequate :hellno: . I only woose like Jason on studs under 8BA (2.2mm = 85 thou dia). 

Jo
Ah - so 2-56 are .086, thats a whole thou over your limit. Sorry!  I didn't feel like threading yards of 2-56.   :slap:

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jo on April 20, 2018, 04:25:12 PM
Ah - so 2-56 are .086, thats a whole thou over your limit.

I said under, we don't normally use 9 BA so next is 10BA = 1.7mm = 67thou.

Jo
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 20, 2018, 04:27:11 PM
Ah - so 2-56 are .086, thats a whole thou over your limit.

I said under, we don't normally use 9 BA so next is 10BA = 1.7mm = 67thou.

Jo

Okay - so when the casting set comes out for the Marion, I'll be watching your build. After a decade of casting fondling, anyway!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 20, 2018, 04:34:54 PM
Back on the model, the lower chain sheave was turned up this morning from some steel bar, with a bronze bushing:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/b8l1ohcfb/IMG_2643.jpg)
Here it is in place between the front subframes:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/yzkf6lzrr/IMG_2645.jpg)
The swing circle and subframe assembly have gotten a coat of paint:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/81qi4uzp3/IMG_2636.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/tbe4fpnpj/IMG_2637.jpg)
Short video of the hoist chain in action, with the chain routed down through the subframe and back towards where the winding drum will be:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeVg_RVpRdQ
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on April 20, 2018, 08:02:52 PM
That’s sweet Studley  8) 8). You’ve mentioned the finish on the chains: are you wanting a state of “as new” or “used in the field” finish? Back in my “industrial period” :lolb:, while working in paper mills, there were tons of chain used for many tasks. When they came in new, they were a matte grey. Once they were being used, the “rubbing surface” turned an almost polished pewter and the inside of the links became darker and darker. Now mind you, this was the eighties, so, move it back near a hundred years and I would suspect that “new” wasn’t as “matte” as it was then. I did come up with some “ black oxide” treatments when I restored my Cyclone that if not left to fully soak, would produce NOS chain, well close, well I think  :thinking: :lolb: Super job and will be here until the end ( lack of popcorn, cookies, banter, or death don’t count  :old:) BTW: I just read on the UEU (United Elves Union) website, that they are getting ready to picket Zee’s place. Something about substandard cookies and abuse of power  :lolb: :shrug:.  Keep up the great work Chris  :popcorn: :ThumbsUp:

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 20, 2018, 08:18:34 PM
That’s sweet Studley  8) 8) . You’ve mentioned the finish on the chains: are you wanting a state of “as new” or “used in the field” finish? Back in my “industrial period” :lolb: , while working in paper mills, there were tons of chain used for many tasks. When they came in new, they were a matte grey. Once they were being used, the “rubbing surface” turned an almost polished pewter and the inside of the links became darker and darker. Now mind you, this was the eighties, so, move it back near a hundred years and I would suspect that “new” wasn’t as “matte” as it was then. I did come up with some “ black oxide” treatments when I restored my Cyclone that if not left to fully soak, would produce NOS chain, well close, well I think  :thinking: :lolb: Super job and will be here until the end ( lack of popcorn, cookies, banter, or death don’t count  :old: ) BTW: I just read on the UEU (United Elves Union) website, that they are getting ready to picket Zee’s place. Something about substandard cookies and abuse of power  :lolb: :shrug: .  Keep up the great work Chris  :popcorn: :ThumbsUp:

Cletus
I guess the greyer finish or darker would be better looking. The chain as bought was very smooth and shiny, possibly had a chrome or similar finish on it, which was too glossy for a forged chain. The chain on the machine now has had decades to sit and age to a blacker surface. The torching burned off the gloss, but left it a mix of colors. What did you use for the treatment on your metal? I've never had good results with most chemical blackening, and not knowing what this surface is makes it tough.



Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 20, 2018, 10:19:24 PM
Starting to prep the bars for the A-frame uprights. They are fairly thick, nearly 1/2" wide on the thickness and 3/8" on the depth down the center section, both ends open up into larger diameter circles, and one end has about a 20 degree bend. So, its either piece it up or hog it down out of a bigger chunk. I have some 1/2" x 3/4" steel bar, which is big enough to make the center section plus one end, the other end where it changes direction will be pieced up of another length of it.
You can see the shape in this render, the bar goes up inside the head casting where it has a larger round end for a cross pin, and the base end bends over just before going into the sill beam, so that end is vertical.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4smlohnjr/Turntable_And_Derrick.png)
I started with the base ends, milled a slot and the end face at a 19.6 degree angle. The slot is narrower than the finished beam will be, so the silver soldered joint will have 5 faces - should be plenty strong.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/l3ldm07xz/IMG_2650.jpg)
The ends of the long sections were milled with a shoulder so it was a close fit to the slot in the ends.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7lehaavyv/IMG_2651.jpg)
With the parts held together with a long bar clamp (handy clamps, have sets of them of different lengths from my ship model work, think they are sold for musical instrument makers), drilled through the shoulder of the slot and just into the end of the tab on the long part. Took them apart and tapped the short end. The shallow hole in the tab will act as a detent for the tip of the screw to hold the parts aligned for silver soldering.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/67muef493/IMG_2652.jpg)
Parts screwed together, ready to solder them up..
(https://s5.postimg.cc/66cwll2lj/IMG_2653.jpg)
After soldering, I can start milling them down to shape. Will start with the end holes (which are the critical bits, they need to be the right distance apart) and rounding the ends, then do the straight center sections.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on April 20, 2018, 10:53:29 PM
More sweet work. Best recollection it came from Eastwood; I’ll see if I can find a link

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 20, 2018, 11:09:16 PM
That's a nifty idea. Went into my reference book.  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on April 21, 2018, 01:40:50 AM
Chris, how 'used' do you want the chain to look? A quick dunk in some acid will remove the plating, which I'm guessing is bright zinc as most consumer chain is finished with it. Then you can do what ever you want.

Leave it out in the back yard for a couple of months for that really old look.

Oh, I forgot. It's actually a special protective coating....

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 21, 2018, 01:43:34 AM
Chris, how 'used' do you want the chain to look? A quick dunk in some acid will remove the plating, which I'm guessing is bright zinc as most consumer chain is finished with it. Then you can do what ever you want.

Leave it out in the back yard for a couple of months for that really old look.

Oh, I forgot. It's actually a special protective coating....

Pete
Does it matter what kind of acid? I don't like dealing with anything too nasty.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 21, 2018, 01:58:00 AM
Chris, how 'used' do you want the chain to look? A quick dunk in some acid will remove the plating, which I'm guessing is bright zinc as most consumer chain is finished with it. Then you can do what ever you want.

Leave it out in the back yard for a couple of months for that really old look.

Oh, I forgot. It's actually a special protective coating....

Pete
Does it matter what kind of acid? I don't like dealing with anything too nasty.

Then how do you explain your elves?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 21, 2018, 02:15:17 AM
Chris, how 'used' do you want the chain to look? A quick dunk in some acid will remove the plating, which I'm guessing is bright zinc as most consumer chain is finished with it. Then you can do what ever you want.

Leave it out in the back yard for a couple of months for that really old look.

Oh, I forgot. It's actually a special protective coating....

Pete
Does it matter what kind of acid? I don't like dealing with anything too nasty.

Then how do you explain your elves?
My elves are nice to me. Did the ones I sent to you trash your kitchen with the late night parties?   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 21, 2018, 03:10:16 AM
Chris, how 'used' do you want the chain to look? A quick dunk in some acid will remove the plating, which I'm guessing is bright zinc as most consumer chain is finished with it. Then you can do what ever you want.

Leave it out in the back yard for a couple of months for that really old look.

Oh, I forgot. It's actually a special protective coating....

Pete
Does it matter what kind of acid? I don't like dealing with anything too nasty.

Then how do you explain your elves?
My elves are nice to me. Did the ones I sent to you trash your kitchen with the late night parties?   :Lol:

If they did, T took care of them. Kitchen is hers. Sacrosanct.  ;D
I have patience and tolerance in my shop...when it comes to her kitchen...well.
That is to say...any elves that show their face in her kitchen...are doomed.
I speak from experience.  ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on April 21, 2018, 03:43:28 AM
Most any acid will work, it's just a matter of how long you want it to take. I'd try some phosphoric  acid. It's what lime and scale removers are made of, it's pretty benign. Concrete etching acids are stronger and still fairly benign.

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 21, 2018, 04:02:25 AM
I really shouldn't suggest anything...I have virtually no experience with any of this...

Is it possible to heat the chain (after the coating is gone) and dunk in oil to blacken it?
I suppose that's only for steel though.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on April 21, 2018, 06:12:09 AM
If the chain is steel, then heating it will burn off any plating. It doesn't take red heat. Then with the plating gone it can be dunked in oil while hot.

Pete

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on April 21, 2018, 07:46:47 AM
Hey Chris,
 Have you got access to a Home concrete (cement)mixer? A few shovels of sand & gravel.....no cement...maybe some water throw the chain in, turn it on, go inside & leave it to annoy the neighborhood for an hour or two. Should give it a bit of a genuine beaten look.

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 21, 2018, 12:32:03 PM
If the chain is steel, then heating it will burn off any plating. It doesn't take red heat. Then with the plating gone it can be dunked in oil while hot.

Pete
The chain is steel, supposed to be stainless, has been heated, so sounds like the plating should be gone now. So, heat it and dunk in a can of motor oil?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 21, 2018, 12:35:23 PM
Hey Chris,
 Have you got access to a Home concrete (cement)mixer? A few shovels of sand & gravel.....no cement...maybe some water throw the chain in, turn it on, go inside & leave it to annoy the neighborhood for an hour or two. Should give it a bit of a genuine beaten look.

Cheers Kerrin
No access to a mixer. Do have a tumbler, but that would polish it again, though it would remove the coating.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on April 21, 2018, 02:56:18 PM
If the chain is sstl then heating will give some dark color. There will be no plating to burn off. Caswell Plating has a kit for darkening sstl but there is no 'home' method I'm aware of.

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 21, 2018, 03:05:15 PM
If the chain is sstl then heating will give some dark color. There will be no plating to burn off. Caswell Plating has a kit for darkening sstl but there is no 'home' method I'm aware of.

Pete
Well, its claimed as stainless, but it sure looked like a chromed finish, and heating gave it a mottled appearance, some coppery color that could be the base plate coat. I picked up a bottle of Muriatic acid to see if it has any appearance. Chemical blackening on stainless is VERY dependant on the alloy, no general solution for it.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Mike R on April 21, 2018, 04:05:51 PM
Have you tried cutting one link to see if there is a plating?  Once cut you can flex it to fatigue it, if there is plating it will flake off.  Should help you determine what you are playing with pretty quickly.

Mike
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 21, 2018, 07:40:07 PM
Have you tried cutting one link to see if there is a plating?  Once cut you can flex it to fatigue it, if there is plating it will flake off.  Should help you determine what you are playing with pretty quickly.

Mike
Good tip - just tried that, no flaking, and the acid did nothing as well. Must just be some polished mystery stainless alloy.

Also tried heating then oil, not much difference to just heating, which looks good enough for now. Another incentive to trying to make a chain bending jig later on with some known steel. This chain is like turnpike gas station food, no one knows what the heck is in it, probably better that way!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: J.L. on April 21, 2018, 09:24:30 PM
Hi Chris,

Wonderful work again.

 :praise2:

Before I was given a piece of steel the other day, the fellow who gave it to me, said that it was quite rusty so he sandblasted it.

John
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 22, 2018, 03:42:14 AM
Thanks John!


 :cheers:


I'm in the middle of milling down the A frame legs to size, we have finally gotten some warmer weather so not as much shop time today, that outside place is back!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 22, 2018, 04:04:12 PM
First A-frame leg milled to size, ready to round the ends...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/te7ndpcvb/IMG_2655.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 90LX_Notch on April 22, 2018, 04:18:48 PM
Checking in.  Very nice work/progress Chris.

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 22, 2018, 05:22:01 PM
Hi Bob!

Got the ends rounded over on the rotary table/mill setup. The angled ends took some fiddling till I found a combination of clamps that would keep the part from rotating since there was no way to clamp it flat on the arm. The screw at the center is in a bushing to match the size of the hole in the leg.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3nw9hu7pj/IMG_2656.jpg)
The other ends were much simpler, standard setup for parts like con-rods.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dl7aaw7lj/IMG_2657.jpg)
Two legs, ready to go:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/u8ysdehsn/IMG_2658.jpg)
Ready to make the pins for the bottom ends, and then the parts that go at the top end to support the boom and steam pipe for the crowd engine.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: mklotz on April 22, 2018, 05:44:38 PM
I think I finally understand why your progress seems so rapid.

You must have a collection of raw stock of Brobdingnagian proportions!  We almost never hear you lamenting, "As soon as the ... arrives, I'll start work on ..." I'm sitting here imagining a rented Boeing 747 hangar filled to the ceiling with every type of material, in every shape and size increment.

I'm also imagining a smaller, Piper-cub size hangar filled with all the currency you use to buy all the brass you're using in this project.

Keep up the great work.  We're all enjoying this thread immensely.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on April 22, 2018, 06:00:00 PM
Nice work, Chris, as always.

Marv, I love your posts! I always learn something!  This time I had to look up Brobdingnagian.  Guess I never read Gulliver's Travels.  And I agree with your comment!   I'd love to see Chris's stash of bar stock!

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 22, 2018, 06:04:37 PM
I think I finally understand why your progress seems so rapid.

You must have a collection of raw stock of Brobdingnagian proportions!  We almost never hear you lamenting, "As soon as the ... arrives, I'll start work on ..." I'm sitting here imagining a rented Boeing 747 hangar filled to the ceiling with every type of material, in every shape and size increment.

I'm also imagining a smaller, Piper-cub size hangar filled with all the currency you use to buy all the brass you're using in this project.

Keep up the great work.  We're all enjoying this thread immensely.

 :Lol:

I definitely don't have a 747 hanger full of stock. Do know a guy with a small plane hanger, but he won't let me have a key... 

So far I've probably spent a couple hundred total on this project - and the steel is not that much cheaper than brass, considering I got most of the large brass as offcuts at a discount.

The reality is that the main stock rack is on the side wall of the closet in the back room I use as a model shop:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7mth0alyf/IMG_2659.jpg)
Some more on the back wall of the closet:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/w3bmurezb/IMG_2660.jpg)
and the large offcuts sit on the floor:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ru6wslr5j/IMG_2661.jpg)
Thats pretty much it - few bits of sheet stock in a drawer, etc. I do try and look ahead to the next sets of parts to see if I need to buy something specific, but I tend to get larger sizes and whittle them down as needed for a project like this - since this model is a direct scale of the existing, most of the parts are between normal stock sizes, this model was not designed as a model to use even sizes. So, I tend to buy bigger stock when I see it going by on sale somewhere, and haunt the commercial places for drops. Buying onsey-twosy of small pieces is the MOST expensive way to do it, both in price per piece as well as shipping costs, I'd rather spend twice as much on the stock, and have enough for the next three models. Some of the suppliers have regular sales, so I haunt those circulars too. 
 :old:

Though, have to admit, the checks for the Lombard articles are more than covering costs for the Marion build!   :thinking:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 22, 2018, 06:06:33 PM
Nice work, Chris, as always.

Marv, I love your posts! I always learn something!  This time I had to look up Brobdingnagian.  Guess I never read Gulliver's Travels.  And I agree with your comment!   I'd love to see Chris's stash of bar stock!

Kim

I think I used to live near the Dingnagian's, though I don't remember which one was Brob....   :ROFL:

And I think we were typing at the same time, see previous post for the stash.

Oh, and its well guarded by a troop of Ninja attack elves and their miniature Dobermans!   :naughty:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on April 22, 2018, 06:31:50 PM
Oh, and its well guarded by a troop of Ninja attack elves and their miniature Dobermans!   :naughty:
You can't be too careful with a stash like that! That's a lot of brass!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 22, 2018, 07:24:19 PM
Oh, and its well guarded by a troop of Ninja attack elves and their miniature Dobermans!   :naughty:
You can't be too careful with a stash like that! That's a lot of brass!
Kim
Half of it is steel.


The attack elves/gnomes used to be bodyguards for Disney. Very nasty.   :Lol:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81gzRTLFt2L._AC_UL160_SR160,160_.jpg)

 
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on April 23, 2018, 07:28:35 PM
I'd always believed that I don't have any shop elves because my neighbor's Marine gnomes scared them off, but you've got Ninja Attack Elves and Attack Gnomes working together.  Now I'm starting to believe that it's the working conditions, my shop is in the basement of a house that was built in 1890 after all.  At least if I do have shop elves I'm pretty sure the Clean-up detail is on strike, and has been for years.

You say the mint chocolate chip cookies work miracles right?

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 23, 2018, 07:56:32 PM
I'd always believed that I don't have any shop elves because my neighbor's Marine gnomes scared them off, but you've got Ninja Attack Elves and Attack Gnomes working together.  Now I'm starting to believe that it's the working conditions, my shop is in the basement of a house that was built in 1890 after all.  At least if I do have shop elves I'm pretty sure the Clean-up detail is on strike, and has been for years.

You say the mint chocolate chip cookies work miracles right?

Don
Oh yes, the right cookies make all the difference. And the Attack'ers keep the local squirrels under control too... Salesmen, that is, not the little furry animals...   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 23, 2018, 08:51:57 PM
Don...keep in mind the kinds of elves Chris's mint chocolate chip cookies attract.
Think about it.

Think about it carefully.

If you want helpful and polite elves, you might try a different cookie.
If you can't make your own...Keebler can work in a pinch. Or Rice Krispie treats.

I had some elves...but they were attracted by another shop (T's kitchen).
I don't know her specific trick but I know it works on me too.

 :lolb:

All I have now is something I haven't been able to see but keeps mumbling things like "Are you sure you want to do that?".
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 23, 2018, 09:17:24 PM
Don...keep in mind the kinds of elves Chris's mint chocolate chip cookies attract.
Think about it.

Think about it carefully.

If you want helpful and polite elves, you might try a different cookie.
If you can't make your own...Keebler can work in a pinch. Or Rice Krispie treats.

I had some elves...but they were attracted by another shop (T's kitchen).
I don't know her specific trick but I know it works on me too.

 :lolb:

All I have now is something I haven't been able to see but keeps mumbling things like "Are you sure you want to do that?".


 :ROFL:


Jealousy is a sad thing to see. Just because Zee could not bribe my shop elves to work for him...  My cookies inspire too much loyalty. Zees rice krispies turned his into evil shop gnomes...


 :Jester:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 23, 2018, 10:11:23 PM
Don...keep in mind the kinds of elves Chris's mint chocolate chip cookies attract.
Think about it.

Think about it carefully.

If you want helpful and polite elves, you might try a different cookie.
If you can't make your own...Keebler can work in a pinch. Or Rice Krispie treats.

I had some elves...but they were attracted by another shop (T's kitchen).
I don't know her specific trick but I know it works on me too.

 :lolb:

All I have now is something I haven't been able to see but keeps mumbling things like "Are you sure you want to do that?".


 :ROFL:


Jealousy is a sad thing to see. Just because Zee could not bribe my shop elves to work for him...  My cookies inspire too much loyalty. Zees rice krispies turned his into evil shop gnomes...


 :Jester:

You have it wrong my gnomish friend. They were easily bribed. Too easy. Then I kicked them out for not adhering to simple principles of etiquette and decorum. Nasty!  ;D
Must have been their prior training.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 23, 2018, 10:42:13 PM
Don...keep in mind the kinds of elves Chris's mint chocolate chip cookies attract.
Think about it.

Think about it carefully.

If you want helpful and polite elves, you might try a different cookie.
If you can't make your own...Keebler can work in a pinch. Or Rice Krispie treats.

I had some elves...but they were attracted by another shop (T's kitchen).
I don't know her specific trick but I know it works on me too.

 :lolb:

All I have now is something I haven't been able to see but keeps mumbling things like "Are you sure you want to do that?".


 :ROFL:


Jealousy is a sad thing to see. Just because Zee could not bribe my shop elves to work for him...  My cookies inspire too much loyalty. Zees rice krispies turned his into evil shop gnomes...


 :Jester:

You have it wrong my gnomish friend. They were easily bribed. Too easy. Then I kicked them out for not adhering to simple principles of etiquette and decorum. Nasty!  ;D
Must have been their prior training.

Ah, they always get confused between the pinky and that other finger.... :disappointed:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 23, 2018, 10:45:29 PM
Last night was our latest RC submarine group run at the local Y pool, I took along the sea turtle again, this time with a little friend on his back - the plastic model I used as a carving reference, fitted out with some scuba tanks (too small and young to hold his breath as well as big brother does). Worked quite well!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/g2artlanr/IMG_1785.jpg)
One of the other guys had his flying sub get in the act, coming up the side of the pool to beg for sardines...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kbfhvrlmv/IMG_1754.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 23, 2018, 11:15:07 PM
Got a start on the head casting for the A-frame today, between sessions sitting out in the sun and getting in some walks - at last the snow is gone and its up around 70 again! Yay! Too bad it wont last long this week...

Anyway, the head casting is a simple appearing block from the outside, but the inside shape is cut way back to allow the A-frame legs to nest into it. Here is what it looks like:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4mdjmyydj/A-frame_head.jpg)
Section E-E shows the shape on the inside. The angled portions are where the legs nest in, and the two holes to the left are for the pins that hold the tops of the legs. Not an easy shape to do from one chunk, so I am pieceing this up, the center solid piece will have thin plate sides, plus another piece to form the angled area on top where the pivot for the guy struts to the end of the boom attach.
Started with two pieces for the center, had some 1/4" steel flat stock but no 1/2", so I bolted two of the thinner pieces together, with the bolt heads countersunk in, and milled a bit off both faces to get it down to the 0.4375" thickness to match the leg thickness.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/yeam25swn/IMG_2663.jpg)
Here is a shot showing where the legs will sit in relation to this piece:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tfn3nnron/IMG_2665.jpg)
Back onto the rotary table to mill the sides to shape. First squared up the base of the part to the mill table, and offset first one direction for one side:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/hqj3zo5uv/IMG_2666.jpg)
then equal angle to the other side:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rb2qmkxrr/IMG_2667.jpg)
Then back to the mill vise, to take the narrow top section down to size:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ig1wc1ltz/IMG_2668.jpg)
Part so far:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3k3d4gi53/IMG_2669.jpg)
Next stop is to make up the two plates that will form the front and back of the piece. These will get some other fittings soldered on to them for the different flanges and sheave holders, then will make the top section and join them all up.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 23, 2018, 11:38:27 PM
Whew! Four decimal places.

It's a fascinating project.
One which, I'm sure, many members would love to find a similar 'one off' and do.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 23, 2018, 11:44:27 PM
Whew! Four decimal places.

It's a fascinating project.
One which, I'm sure, many members would love to find a similar 'one off' and do.
The plans have lots of long decimal place dimensions, since the 3d model was made at full size, then scaled to 1/16th for the model, rather than being designed as a model with stock sizes.


I was very lucky to have a machine like this close by, and to be granted such access to it. Sure that Willy felt same way about his mill engine project.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 24, 2018, 12:59:32 AM
Whew! Four decimal places.

It's a fascinating project.
One which, I'm sure, many members would love to find a similar 'one off' and do.
The plans have lots of long decimal place dimensions, since the 3d model was made at full size, then scaled to 1/16th for the model, rather than being designed as a model with stock sizes.


I was very lucky to have a machine like this close by, and to be granted such access to it. Sure that Willy felt same way about his mill engine project.

Yep. Willy is another I admire for being able to model from the real thing.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 24, 2018, 07:18:28 PM
Bit more done this morning, got the plates to go on the outside of the A-frame head assembly cut to size and drilled/tapped for screws to hold them on for soldering. Here is a shot with one of the plates off to show how it looks inside:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4hwr9y4tj/IMG_2671.jpg)
They thin stock I have is not wide enough for one piece, so the plates were made in two sections. Here is a test fit on the model:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kswv699lj/IMG_2670.jpg)
Still have fittings to go on the outside of the plates, will solder up when they are ready.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 25, 2018, 12:39:13 AM
Started adding the other bits and pieces to the A-frame head assembly:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7z8gnlzjb/IMG_2672.jpg)
These are all going to be silver soldered in palce, then will be milled down to final shape, the small pieces get tapered down at one end, the top large piece gets angled over so that the top pivot will be vertical when the A-frame is in its tilted-forward position. Still need to add the holders for the sheave on the front and the stay rod on the back sides.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on April 25, 2018, 12:45:47 AM
Great progress Chris, I'm still following  :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 25, 2018, 01:48:30 AM
I wonder if Chris has thought how he's going to get that thing out of the room.  :thinking:

Well he probably has.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on April 25, 2018, 01:56:56 AM
Hi Zee,
 Bet the elves have it sorted!.....chainsaw dust & cookie cumbs is all Chris will find...oh & a wider doorway  :lolb:

OR maybe a steam shovel shaped hole in the wall........

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 25, 2018, 02:01:17 AM
Hi Zee,
 Bet the elves have it sorted!.....chainsaw dust & cookie cumbs is all Chris will find...oh & a wider doorway  :lolb:

OR maybe a steam shovel shaped hole in the wall........

IF it's the elves. It's a desirable model.

Hmmm. I'm pretty sure I can figure a way to abscond with it and blame his incompetent elves.  :thinking:
As I'd said before...I got them to come my way but when I saw their capability...I sent them back.

Or did I? Perhaps a little brainwashing was performed before I sent them back?
[Insert maniacal laugh here. And not the kind when I lose it.]
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 25, 2018, 02:20:11 AM
Well, Zee's gnomes would cut the profile of the shovel in the wall next to the door, like Wile E Coyote's outline in the cliff.   :facepalm:


My elves noticed that the shovel is narrow, and will walk it through the door lengthwise!   :lolb: 


The tough part is going to be lifting it, may need a cart, not sure how heavy it will be, but its already over 20 pounds.   :thinking:


And as far as absconding with it, have to introduce Zee to security by S&W... :Doh:


Just kidding, would just feed him to the Shark submarine!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 25, 2018, 02:26:57 AM
The tough part is going to be lifting it, may need a cart, not sure how heavy it will be, but its already over 20 pounds.   :thinking:

I'm available to help.  :naughty:

But if I were you, I wouldn't trust me just as if you were me, I wouldn't trust me.

Wait...that doesn't sound right.  :thinking:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 25, 2018, 02:34:19 AM
The tough part is going to be lifting it, may need a cart, not sure how heavy it will be, but its already over 20 pounds.   :thinking:

I'm available to help.  :naughty:

But if I were you, I wouldn't trust me just as if you were me, I wouldn't trust me.

Wait...that doesn't sound right.  :thinking:


 :insane:


Um, and you were a software engineer...   :ShakeHead:


At least you couldnt run fast carrying the shovel!


Seriously, well, a bit, well, not much... The Shay is a foot or so shorter than this model will be, I can lift it and carry it a short way, but its easier with two people. This model will be longer and taller, plus probably twice the wieght. May get one of those carts that jack up and down.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on April 25, 2018, 02:44:52 AM
Hi Chris,
 Can recommend the hydraulic trolley. When my slaves err minions err kids left home I got one to move the trains & trolleys around, makes life easy & safe!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 25, 2018, 02:58:32 AM
Hi Chris,
 Can recommend the hydraulic trolley. When my slaves err minions err kids left home I got one to move the trains & trolleys around, makes life easy & safe!

Cheers Kerrin
Which brand did you get?


Can use one to move the sacks of popcorn in to use when reading all the threads here!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on April 25, 2018, 03:18:13 AM
Hi Chris,
 Mines the 226 kg version, an earlier one with out the hand brake, mine has brakes on the wheels

https://www.machineryhouse.co.nz/Lifter-Trolleys

I have the popcorn delivered by the truck load! Have a silo with auger to deliver to the house, re-stock on a monthly basis up until a couple of months back now its every 2 weeks!!  :ROFL:

Cheers Kerrin

PS just checked & its not a hand brake but the release to lower the table, mine has a peddle next to the pump peddle
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 25, 2018, 04:08:16 PM
Thanks Kerrin, will look into those!

Got a couple more fittings made for the A-frame head unit, the front pulley brackets and the back stay bracket. Each started out as a chunk of brass, rough cut to shape, drilled the pivot hole, and used that to radius the outer edge in the mill vise.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/yc4z3lhyf/IMG_2673.jpg)
The rear bracket has some raised areas on the sides, where they thickened it up to help take the load of the back stay. Did that on the rotary table to get the angles and arcs in.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/r8x3nyhnr/IMG_2676.jpg)
Then milled the slots down the center, several shallow passes with the end mill down to depth, then a couple passes out to the width.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/idw9dgvg7/IMG_2677.jpg)
Drilled and tapped a couple more 1-72 holes for temporary attachment screws to hold them in place for silver soldering.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ccykgegjr/IMG_2678.jpg)
Side view, showing the two brackets in place:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/71jnvnrw7/IMG_2679.jpg)
After silver soldering, the small fins will be milled down to profile, and the top piece angled for the pivot bar that goes on top. The A-frame leans forward from its base so the center of the top pivot is centered over the swing table pivot, so the stays up to the end of the main boom don't pull the boom up or down as it swings.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on April 25, 2018, 09:46:20 PM
I wonder if Chris has thought how he's going to get that thing out of the room.  :thinking:

Well he probably has.

For those that follow NCIS on CBS- it will be the same way Gibbs gets the boats out of his basement.  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 25, 2018, 10:47:43 PM
I wonder if Chris has thought how he's going to get that thing out of the room.  :thinking:

Well he probably has.

For those that follow NCIS on CBS- it will be the same way Gibbs gets the boats out of his basement.  :ThumbsUp:
Doing that off camera sure helps!   :Lol:  one of the great mysteries of our time!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 25, 2018, 11:40:47 PM
The parts have been silver soldered on, and initial milling to shape the backets has been done.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ovsy2apfb/IMG_2681.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/dw7qqoraf/IMG_2682.jpg)
Next milling will be to slope the top of the assembly, so that the pivot on top will be vertical when the A-frame is in its tilted-forward position.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on April 26, 2018, 03:04:04 PM
I wonder if Chris has thought how he's going to get that thing out of the room.  :thinking:

Well he probably has.

For those that follow NCIS on CBS- it will be the same way Gibbs gets the boats out of his basement.  :ThumbsUp:

Which boat?  Hasn't he cut at least one up and started over again?  Not real sure that Chris would go along with that, but if he does I've got a small collection of engineering art that I'd be willing to add this to.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 26, 2018, 05:19:56 PM
I wonder if Chris has thought how he's going to get that thing out of the room.  :thinking:

Well he probably has.

For those that follow NCIS on CBS- it will be the same way Gibbs gets the boats out of his basement.  :ThumbsUp:

Which boat?  Hasn't he cut at least one up and started over again?  Not real sure that Chris would go along with that, but if he does I've got a small collection of engineering art that I'd be willing to add this to.

Don
Gibbs has built several boats over the years, some he destroyed, only seen one that made it to the water, and Abby sawed that one up. I think he had a teleporter.

And no, I would NOT cut up one of my boats! I have built several canoes in the upstairs wood shop, they fit out the large window over the garage roof (shallow pitch on the back), or the shorter ones can make the turn onto the stairs. The larger boats were prepped in the upstairs shop, then the molds taken out to the garage for planking.

Closest for the 'art' display would be the stack of molds for a couple of the boats, waiting in the basement in case I remake one someday.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 26, 2018, 05:33:30 PM
Oboyoboy! Got a chance to use the new bigger milling vise that followed me home from Cabin Fever this winter (the shop elves gave it to me as a late Christmas present). The A-frame head assembly was too large to get in the normal vise easily, so I set up the big one cross ways on the mill and used it to mill the top plate to its angle.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6lv2gsqh3/IMG_2684.jpg)
Closer view of the top plate:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/a5h06llh3/IMG_2685.jpg)
Drilled and tapped the center of the plate for the pivot holder, still to be made:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9fy7u85hz/IMG_2686.jpg)
The screw is where the pivot will be, the pivot is a large hollow tube with a full base, so the screw can sit inside it and hold it on, but allow it to be removed. The top edge of the pivot has a flange to hold the swivel arm, on the real thing that is removeable with small bolts, but this will be better for the model size, allows the flange to stay a scale proper size.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/j0huh42jr/IMG_2687.jpg)
Here it is test assembled on the model - there will be a long stay bar running from the bracket on the left down to the frame under the boiler to hold it in this position.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ucufywydz/IMG_2688.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 26, 2018, 05:41:26 PM
Fantastic Chris.
It's an unbelievable model.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 26, 2018, 06:02:19 PM
Fantastic Chris.
It's an unbelievable model.
Thanks Carl!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on April 26, 2018, 07:33:07 PM
Looking really good Chris,
I see the elves are starting to get over there camera shyness........what are they up to I wonder :thinking:


Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 26, 2018, 08:43:29 PM
Looking really good Chris,
I see the elves are starting to get over there camera shyness........what are they up to I wonder :thinking:


Cheers Kerrin
Huh? Oh, couple seem to have wandered into camera range. Unusual, they don't normally get in the shots, muttering something about an open warrant from the North Pole and witness protection...


 :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 27, 2018, 02:47:58 PM
Hi all,

Erik Ein-Bier here, I am foreman of the shop elves local chapter that owns Chris. The silly human went off somewhere today without posting our latest work on 'his' model, so I am stepping in to do it.   :Mad:

(https://s5.postimg.cc/eznq85lg7/IMG_2695.jpg)

We got the pivot post for the top of the A-frame head turned down to shape,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/pmhjdke5z/IMG_2689.jpg)
then flipped it around and bored out the center, leaving the bottom of it intact to hold the bolt to secure it to the head assembly.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ij9nxygg7/IMG_2691.jpg)
Here it is installed on the A-frame:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9bhfh9otj/IMG_2693.jpg)
Next up is to make the pivot arm that this post holds, which has fittings to hold the guy stays up to the top of the main boom.

Oh, and Zee, sorry about the mess we made at your shop on our little vacation last week! Fun place! Really sorry about how the elfprentices recycled and refilled that bottle of booze they were drinking from. Um, at least the alcohol will kill most of the germs. Hope it doesn't effect the taste too much...  :mischief:

Hopefully tomorrow Chris will be back posting the updates. Lazy bugger!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 27, 2018, 02:58:59 PM
Oh, and Zee, sorry about the mess we made at your shop on our little vacation last week! Fun place! Really sorry about how the elfprentices recycled and refilled that bottle of booze they were drinking from. Um, at least the alcohol will kill most of the germs. Hope it doesn't effect the taste too much...  :mischief:

Once again they targeted the wrong shop.  ::)
You seem to be satisfied with their work in your shop so I suggest you keep them there.
They seem to lose it when they go out.

Now I could be wrong. It may be that my own fellas kick your fellas out, clean up your fellas' mess, and leave me none the wiser.
I have good fellas.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 27, 2018, 11:01:53 PM
Well, so now that I have wrestled the keyboard back from the elves, an update for this afternoon on what I did...

Made up the U-bolts to hold the A-frame legs in tight to the head assembly. Threaded some rod, bent in the vise, little finessing to get them to fit:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/x1bidebgn/IMG_2696.jpg)
The swivel arm at the top is nearly 3/4" thick and quite wide, so bolted and loctited two 3/8" thick bars together to get the blank, then milled the front edge to shape on the rotary table:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/j7n5ocql3/IMG_2697.jpg)
While the back edge is still straight and able to be held in the vise securely, drilled and bored the pivot hole:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xe2wjl95z/IMG_2699.jpg)
Then trimmed off the wedges at the back, and milled them to shape. The center has a slight arc, the rest of the edges going out to the ends are stright.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/x1bideylz/IMG_2702.jpg)
Here it is test fit on the A-frame.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6g8zhv3yf/IMG_2703.jpg)
The attachment holes in the ends need to be drilled/tapped, the lead edges need to be rounded over, and the arms out to the sides tapered a bit. Not sure how I am going to do the rounding over, dont have a quarter-round bit large enough. Some people have used router bits for this, but I am leery of using them on metal. Have to experiment a bit, may just sand and file the shape in since it is not a critical dimension, does not have to match up to another part.   :headscratch:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on April 28, 2018, 01:28:17 AM
Router bits work fine for metal, in the lathe or the mill. Just run them at the appropriate speed for the size...

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 28, 2018, 08:41:41 PM
Router bits work fine for metal, in the lathe or the mill. Just run them at the appropriate speed for the size...

Pete

Good to know Pete - thanks! I assume for a large radius, it would be best to take several light cuts?

For this part, with its oddball shape, it was an easier setup to use the belt sander to give it some taper and do the rounding.

Next step was to make the links to connect the guy rods up to the boom. Took some steel rod, and bent it to shape with pliers, using the technique used commonly to make rings for jewelry, bending them in a stack, then sawing across them to make the seperate links.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/r79w2ih9j/IMG_2709.jpg)
The links were then connected up and bent closed, with the eye for the guy rod in place, and the ends silver soldered up.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/esn426i1j/IMG_2710.jpg)
After some cleaning, test assembled everything. The links are held on the head pivot with posts and washers.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/sz2uxf8c7/IMG_2714.jpg)
For now, the A-frame is tied back with some string, when the main frames are made, a long series of bars goes from the top of the a-frame back to the frame under the boiler.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/smbgr8xs7/IMG_2711.jpg)
Time for some more paint, I think...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 30, 2018, 12:54:49 AM
With the swing circle and booms pretty much complete (main thing missing is the crowd engine, going to make that along with the swing engine, which is identical), time to make up the main framework for the steam shovel. It consists of four large lengthwise I-beams (originals are almost two feet tall) and a series of crosswise beams to connect them. On the original the long beams were rolled out in one piece of steel (Marion had their own steel manufacturing and rolling plant), while the cross beams were cast to shape with the mounting flanges integral to them.
For mine, I debated between two options, milling them out of solid and silver soldering out of three pieces of thin stock. I have decided to go with the pieced-up approach, can fall back on the milling option if this does not work. For the model, the center webs are a little under 1-1/4" tall, the top/bottom webs are a little under 1/2" wide, all from 1/16th" thick steel bar. Here are the stacks of stock for the beams, all 32" long, which allows room for trimming the ends to final length.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/sq15cqa4n/IMG_2718.jpg)
Holding them for silver soldering is the trick - too thin to easily and reliably run in screws on the thin dimension, so I am going to use a set of clamp bars to hold the three pieces for soldering. They will be spaced about 6" apart, and be up on short stands to allow room to get the torch in underneath for heating. Started with some lengths of 3/16" thick steel bar stock, chain drilled just inside the pattern to remove the bulk of the material quickly:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5okk6zi6v/IMG_2719.jpg)
then came back with a small mill and cleaned out the inside to shape/size:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4madog73b/IMG_2720.jpg)
Here is the set of clamps:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/z3q8g025z/IMG_2722.jpg)
The one on the left has the wider web put through to show how it will hold - still need to do a  few things before I can try soldering one up: mill the stock down to the final width, file the inside corners of the clamp square to fit the stock closely, and make some short posts for the clamps to be raised up on. The lower corners will get a coat of Nicrobraze to keep any stray solder from sticking the clamps to the beams.
Seems like it should work out, hopefully as well as the clamps for the swing circle did, I hope!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 30, 2018, 01:06:21 AM
Oh good grief. Just keeps getting better and better.  :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 30, 2018, 01:09:21 AM
Oh good grief. Just keeps getting better and better.  :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Thanks Carl!

Thats what I have come to really like about making entire vehicles/machines/etc rather than just the engine portion of it - there are so many different shapes of parts to learn how to make, it constantly keeps extending the fun into something new!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on April 30, 2018, 06:45:21 AM
You've become a true fabricator, Chris, with only one skill missing: gas welding.

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: scc on April 30, 2018, 11:12:17 AM
Chris, I'm just catching up again after a busy spell away.  I cannot believe your rate of progress and extremely high skill level along wit such detailed posting :praise2:   I once asked you what the secret was and you said "retirement"......I'm retired, only 72 and relatively fit, but seem to have so little shop time!..........WELL DONE YOU!                   Terry
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: wagnmkr on April 30, 2018, 11:16:50 AM
I have no words left for this build, so I just sit back and enjoy ... and appreciate the skill involved.

Now, if Zee would only get on with the Stanley Steamer ....

Cheers

Tom
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 30, 2018, 12:44:49 PM
 :cussing:
Now, if Zee Chris would only get on with the Stanley Steamer ....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 30, 2018, 01:04:58 PM
You've become a true fabricator, Chris, with only one skill missing: gas welding.

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Pete
Like mig/tig welding? There is a local welding supplier that has classes, on my want list to take them someday. I took the one on copper working a couple years ago, very useful for the boiler and sheet forming.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 30, 2018, 01:06:01 PM
Chris, I'm just catching up again after a busy spell away.  I cannot believe your rate of progress and extremely high skill level along wit such detailed posting :praise2:   I once asked you what the secret was and you said "retirement"......I'm retired, only 72 and relatively fit, but seem to have so little shop time!..........WELL DONE YOU!                   Terry
Thanks Terry!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 30, 2018, 01:09:26 PM
:cussing:
Now, if Zee Chris would only get on with the Stanley Steamer ....
Oh my. Such language!    :LittleDevil:


When you finish the PMR twin build, maybe we can work up a small scale version of the Stanley Zeemer engine from the full size plans I have, and do a joint build. Rest of the car would have to come later.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 01, 2018, 01:05:18 AM
Got the strips of steel for the I beams milled to width today. No pics, since they look the same as before, just 86 thou narrower than before. Next time s to file the clamps for soldering to fit, then try assembling them....


Looks like a few days of mid 70's are starting, so will be working on it in the evenings... Outside time finally!!!   :)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 01, 2018, 01:10:03 AM
:cussing:
Now, if Zee Chris would only get on with the Stanley Steamer ....
Oh my. Such language!    :LittleDevil:


When you finish the PMR twin build, maybe we can work up a small scale version of the Stanley Zeemer engine from the full size plans I have, and do a joint build. Rest of the car would have to come later.

Time to get a hold of a couple of friends...travel north a little way...and have a blanket party.
Not that I need the friends. Or the blanket.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 01, 2018, 01:13:18 AM
:cussing:
Now, if Zee Chris would only get on with the Stanley Steamer ....
Oh my. Such language!    :LittleDevil:


When you finish the PMR twin build, maybe we can work up a small scale version of the Stanley Zeemer engine from the full size plans I have, and do a joint build. Rest of the car would have to come later.

Time to get a hold of a couple of friends...travel north a little way...and have a blanket party.
Not that I need the friends. Or the blanket.
If you do wander north, stop on in!  We are having a big picnic at our first RC sub run at the pond in a few weeks.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 01, 2018, 01:15:08 AM
:cussing:
Now, if Zee Chris would only get on with the Stanley Steamer ....
Oh my. Such language!    :LittleDevil:


When you finish the PMR twin build, maybe we can work up a small scale version of the Stanley Zeemer engine from the full size plans I have, and do a joint build. Rest of the car would have to come later.

Time to get a hold of a couple of friends...travel north a little way...and have a blanket party.
Not that I need the friends. Or the blanket.
If you do wander north, stop on in!  We are having a big picnic at our first RC sub run at the pond in a few weeks.

Certainly! I'll schedule the blanket party for after.  ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 01, 2018, 01:56:15 PM
Got the first two clamps filed up, taking the inside corners square to fit the bar stock. Here is how they fit over the stock, forming the I-beam for silver soldering:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/nfwn50h5z/IMG_2724.jpg)
I made 4 of the clamps, might make one or two more to keep them close enough together over the length (32") of the beams.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kykvxrkev/IMG_2725.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 01, 2018, 03:08:20 PM
32" beams!  :o

This is no model. Do your elves know you intend for them to go to work with this?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 01, 2018, 05:07:17 PM
32" beams!  :o

This is no model. Do your elves know you intend for them to go to work with this?

Hee Hee Hee!   :LittleDevil:

Gonna get that pool dug....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 01, 2018, 08:51:42 PM
After some quality time outside (including some time reading and napping in the front porch rocker, first day in upper 70's for the year), got the rest of the 4 soldering clamps filed and fitted to silver solder the main I-beams. To give a sense of how large this model will be (no where near some of the awesome traction engines others are doing, but largest I have done so far), here is one beam clamped together and set in place in the base of the turntable.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/634q99cuv/IMG_2726.jpg)
The cab will extend another 6 or 8 inches farther back, the coal storage area cantilevers back off the main frame. For scale, the tabletop it is on is 18" wide - the frame extends across the aisle almost to the cabinet. Gonna need a good rolling cart for this one, especially once the tracks are on, which extend out both sides in the front.

I was pleasantly surprised how rigid the beam got once held with the 4 clamps, the thin bar stock is quite flexible in the thin direction otherwise. Proves they were right about that beam shape, lightweight but very strong!

Back outside for me, more great weather the next few days,  8) , will see when the soldering starts...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 02, 2018, 11:27:04 PM
Between other outside activities, got the four long I-beams silver soldered up. The clamps worked out well overall, at first they were cut to fit closely to the stock, which was a mistake. Getting them off, with the hard flux residue and the occasional blob of stray solder was tough. So, filed the upper end (with the bolt) back a bit, and the later ones were not problem, though if I was making the beams again I'd make a few more clamps to space them closer. The end result was very good, all the beams are made and quite strong. Cleaning them up was done with wire brush and sandpaper since they wont fit in any acid-safe containers I have for pickling.
Here is a picture of them, ready to have the ends trimmed to length:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6snz53p87/IMG_2730.jpg)
The cross beams, which are much shorter (few inches for the longest) but much more complex shapes with ports, flanges, etc, will be cut from solid so that they can be done to tighter tolerances. The original cross beams were cast rather than rolled, since they have flanges on sides and ends, and welding was not far enough along at that date to do a better job than they could with cast parts (Marion had their own still production, rolling, and casting shops). Might get a start on them tomorrow, since the warm sun of the last couple days is giving way to a couple days of rain.
The frame parts are all bolted together, with the cross beams held with full length bars that go from one side of the cab to the other to tension everything. Given the number of times that I'll probably be dismantling (and re-mantling, if thats a word, which I doubt) the frame, sure I'll get sick of dropping the tiny nuts and chasing them across the floor. The shop elves are good machinists, but they just laugh and point when that happens!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 03, 2018, 03:16:46 PM
Got the ends of the I-beams squared up at one end this morning, then measured length and trimmed the other ends too. Seeing how long they are (31 5/16") the dial caliper is out of the question  :shrug: so used a small tape measure - may not be as accurate, but it is repeatable!.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/nag0szlmf/IMG_2731.jpg)
The next pieces are the angle iron brackets that will join the ends of the beams to the front and rear plates. Thought about milling them out of some small square stock, but found some of the thin steel left over from the chains and frames on the Lombard model, going to silver solder that up. I have a couple widths, that combined make an angle stock with same dimension both ways. Got them clamped up with the little clamps I made for the swing circle guide, ready to solder:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mkx8gmssn/IMG_2732.jpg)
After soldering, will drill and cut them to length...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 03, 2018, 04:01:56 PM
Hm...four posts and no responses.

But once everyone's jaw comes back off the floor...

Might be a while though.

:Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 03, 2018, 04:35:36 PM
Hm...four posts and no responses.

But once everyone's jaw comes back off the floor...

Might be a while though.

 :Lol:
Maybe we can order jaw floor pads with the MEM logo?   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on May 03, 2018, 04:56:57 PM
Jaw floor pads sounds like a good idea!

Chris,
As usual, your work is outstanding.   I do like how you fabricated the I beams, that was pretty slick with those little clamps.

How hard was it to get a good solder joint along all 32" of your Ibeams?  Did you have to move the clamps to get under those very well?  Did they soak up too much heat?

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 03, 2018, 05:55:58 PM
Jaw floor pads sounds like a good idea!

Chris,
As usual, your work is outstanding.   I do like how you fabricated the I beams, that was pretty slick with those little clamps.

How hard was it to get a good solder joint along all 32" of your Ibeams?  Did you have to move the clamps to get under those very well?  Did they soak up too much heat?

Kim
Hi Kim,


The clamps worked out well, small enough not to suck up much heat. I use an old dental pick with the silver solder to help spread it along the joint since it can tend to puddle sometimes. Tricky part was leading the heat in front of the solder to get it to wick along the joint. The times I have use larger c or welding clamps, they were too much of a heat sink on the thin metal, these clamps are pretty thin and light, easy to remake if one does get stuck. Had that happen on the ones for the swing circle, just cut that one off.
Just finished soldering the angle stock, cooling now...

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 04, 2018, 04:29:15 PM
Laid out and drilled the pattern of rivet and bolt holes on the angle stock (rivets through the center web of the I-beam, bolts into the end plate joining the beams).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/trzdvwuxz/IMG_2734.jpg)
Started cutting apart the sections - here is one set in place on the end of the beam to show where it will go.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3wfncq0tz/IMG_2736.jpg)
Need to cut and clean up the ends of the rest, then can start drilling the beams for the rivets...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on May 04, 2018, 06:03:22 PM
During the 1970's I worked three years for a division of Toronto Ironworks. By that time we were welding what were called "clip angles" to the ends of wide-flange beams for building skyscrapers and other structures. The picture you just posted made me think of that. Handheld calculators were so new at the time that nobody really trusted them. I can remember setting for weeks on end using logarithmic tables to calculate the angle X braces that were used in all of the steel structures.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 04, 2018, 06:52:49 PM
During the 1970's I worked three years for a division of Toronto Ironworks. By that time we were welding what were called "clip angles" to the ends of wide-flange beams for building skyscrapers and other structures. The picture you just posted made me think of that. Handheld calculators were so new at the time that nobody really trusted them. I can remember setting for weeks on end using logarithmic tables to calculate the angle X braces that were used in all of the steel structures.
Clip angles, good term for it! 


With all the big buildings there, hope you read the tables right!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on May 04, 2018, 07:56:19 PM
Yup, from my days in industrial construction, we called them clips. They were where the iron workers stuck their spud wrench what for lining up the holes for bolt up. A funny aside if you don’t mind: on my very first construction job, freshly graduated from high school, I hired in as a welder for the millwrights on a paper recycling mill in Muskogee Oklahoma. As they were taking me from hire in and orientation, we passed through an area where they were hanging steel. There was a small drill press hanging, seemingly unsupported, from the bottom of about a 10” I beam. They were field drilling holes for the “clips” . I had never seen a mag based drill and it just blew me away when they told me what and how they were doing it.

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 04, 2018, 08:30:15 PM
Yup, from my days in industrial construction, we called them clips. They were where the iron workers stuck their spud wrench what for lining up the holes for bolt up. A funny aside if you don’t mind: on my very first construction job, freshly graduated from high school, I hired in as a welder for the millwrights on a paper recycling mill in Muskogee Oklahoma. As they were taking me from hire in and orientation, we passed through an area where they were hanging steel. There was a small drill press hanging, seemingly unsupported, from the bottom of about a 10” I beam. They were field drilling holes for the “clips” . I had never seen a mag based drill and it just blew me away when they told me what and how they were doing it.

Cletus
:o    Thats where you wonder how many tries it took to find the right strength magnet for that drill!

Funny you mention that story (in several ways) - for drilling mounting holes later on into the tops of the frames, I was thinking of making a clamp-on base for my little Proxon drill press, to do the same thing as you mentioned. It would work for places where I was drilling through another part that could be used as a drill guide, and would save dismantling as much as getting it all into the mill would.

Just had another thought - make a jig to clamp onto the assembled frame, jig has bars underneath that could be clamped into the mill vise... hmmm...  :thinking:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 04, 2018, 08:35:58 PM
Between reads/naps out on the front porch in this nice warm weather (they predicted another day of heavy rain, so naturally it is sunny and warm, again...) I got a start on drilling for the angle clip rivets (thanks for the name of those parts guys! Are there any special names for the middle and top/bottom webs of the I beams?). The same pattern of hole distances were used as on the clips, this time using the back corner of the vise jaws as the index point to line them up - once the first was positioned, zeroed the handwheels and ran the pattern from there for the rest.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qipk39ojb/IMG_2737.jpg)
Before drilling the other beams, riveted up one set to check the setup:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/akgud4evr/IMG_2738.jpg)
I used a block of steel that would fit between the flanges as a backing iron, with it held in the vise.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/oqwl8cxgn/IMG_2739.jpg)
That one fit fine, time for more drilling. After another few chapters out in the rocker!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on May 04, 2018, 08:59:15 PM
An 'I' beam has two flanges and a web. Same for channel. Angles have legs. Flat bar is...well... flat! And we called 'em clips also.

Can't say enough about the great work you're doing, Chris.

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 04, 2018, 10:25:35 PM
An 'I' beam has two flanges and a web. Same for channel. Angles have legs. Flat bar is...well... flat! And we called 'em clips also.

Can't say enough about the great work you're doing, Chris.

Pete
Thanks Pete! Adding that to my vocabulary list...   :ThumbsUp:

Did you work in the iron industry at some point as well?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 04, 2018, 10:30:09 PM
Another session in the shop and got the rest of the angle clips riveted in place:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/z67cuh9l3/IMG_2742.jpg)
Also, forgot to show my handy-dandy-lo-tech-support-jack machine, used to support the other end of long parts when milling on the ends. Made this during the Shay build a few years ago, just some threaded rod, nuts, and wood crossbars. There are a set of nuts countersunk into the bottom of the base to tighten the next set up against, the ones at the top can be run up and down to match whatever height is needed to level the part. I have a set of little machinist jacks for smaller parts, but these beams needed support much farther out. Same level of lo-tech as the swarf scraper Brian just showed on his thread!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4ori2xeif/IMG_2741.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on May 05, 2018, 03:27:17 AM
An 'I' beam has two flanges and a web. Same for channel. Angles have legs. Flat bar is...well... flat! And we called 'em clips also.

Can't say enough about the great work you're doing, Chris.

Pete
Thanks Pete! Adding that to my vocabulary list...   :ThumbsUp:

Did you work in the iron industry at some point as well?

Well, not iron work like high iron. That franchise is primarily (or used to be in your part of the country) by the Mohawk tribe there in NY.

I did a fair amount of field fabrication and welding but three times as much time in fabrication/welding/machine shops. Yep, all three in one place in some.

Green with envy,

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 05, 2018, 07:29:42 PM
Got the end plates laid out and drilled for the mounting bolts to the frames:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8j7x8thc7/IMG_2743.jpg)
Test fit to the frames:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/c2tuymcc7/IMG_2745.jpg)
The gap in the center is wider to allow room for the hoist and slew gear trains to hang down in the middle. The subframe under the swing circle also fits into that space, so at the front there are six parallel frames across the width. Sighting through the holes into the angle clips, there are two sets at the back end that need to have a drill run through to widen them, the clips there did not solder quite flat, and the holes are off by a few thou. After that, will start making the cross beams - there are a couple sets all the way across near the front, and one much heavier one near the back that support the rear tracks. All get long rods all the way through, threaded at the ends, to tie the entire frame into one unit, plus the steel plate floor on top.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on May 05, 2018, 11:16:09 PM
Wow, this is going to be some 'model'  lots of lovely work going on ,  wonderful .
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 05, 2018, 11:51:22 PM
Wow, this is going to be some 'model'  lots of lovely work going on ,  wonderful .
Thanks Willy!


Now I understand the fun you had visiting the old mill for your model, getting in to see and help with the shovel here is a real treat!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 06, 2018, 12:49:39 AM
Bit of trivia - we've discussed how large/heavy this model will be, was playing around in Fusion, and according to it the model version would be 88.18 pounds if it was all made of steel (which it is not, some will be brass, bronze, copper, which is heavier), and it also does not have all the fasteners in the model (lots, but not all). So, that figure should be a minimum weight.

Gack.

 :o

Better start excercising more! For sure not anywhere close to the heaviest model done on this forum, but still a lot to hoist around. The turntable/boom/bucket assembly done so far is over 25 pounds.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on May 06, 2018, 01:25:22 AM
Hi Chris,
 Looking good!

So while sitting on the deck it sounds like you better start lifting a glass or two...... to build up the arm muscle. :whoohoo:

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 06, 2018, 01:47:19 AM
Hi Chris,
 Looking good!

So while sitting on the deck it sounds like you better start lifting a glass or two...... to build up the arm muscle. :whoohoo:

Cheers Kerrin
I like that idea. Lets see, a good Stout would be a good workout...   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 06, 2018, 01:51:10 AM
Better start excercising more! For sure not anywhere close to the heaviest model done on this forum, but still a lot to hoist around. The turntable/boom/bucket assembly done so far is over 25 pounds.

Aren't you (or one of your minions) simply going to drive it out?  ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 06, 2018, 02:36:59 AM
Better start excercising more! For sure not anywhere close to the heaviest model done on this forum, but still a lot to hoist around. The turntable/boom/bucket assembly done so far is over 25 pounds.

Aren't you (or one of your minions) simply going to drive it out?  ;D


Would have to go pretty fast to jump it down the steps to get the garage floor!


 :Lol:


Maybe the project after the Stanley should be a mobile crane?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: scc on May 06, 2018, 10:21:07 AM
Plenty of films on utube of excavators "climbing" of wagons with no ramps to assist :o
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 06, 2018, 01:09:04 PM
Plenty of films on utube of excavators "climbing" of wagons with no ramps to assist :o
Haven't seen one with a 75' long 120 ton excavator. Guess its my chance for fame!   :Lol:   Gonna need a really big truck...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 07, 2018, 02:21:12 AM
No work to show today, had the presentation at the historical society where they went through the history of the quarry and shovel, I showed the development of the 3d model to plans to model, and took the model along to show. Tons of interest, went very well. May be showing at the summer fest out there as well.


Tonight was our latest pool run with the RC submarines, will put up pics tomorrow. With spring finally here, our first run at the pond is in two weeks.   :pinkelephant:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on May 07, 2018, 02:27:02 PM
Plenty of films on utube of excavators "climbing" of wagons with no ramps to assist :o
Haven't seen one with a 75' long 120 ton excavator. Guess its my chance for fame!   :Lol:   Gonna need a really big truck...
Hi Chris,
Did you ever help Hall with his large tanker? At least this model only has to go down to ground level not into a pond. I guess though it could dig a pond.
Gerald
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 07, 2018, 02:35:05 PM
Plenty of films on utube of excavators "climbing" of wagons with no ramps to assist :o
Haven't seen one with a 75' long 120 ton excavator. Guess its my chance for fame!   :Lol:   Gonna need a really big truck...
Hi Chris,
Did you ever help Hall with his large tanker? At least this model only has to go down to ground level not into a pond. I guess though it could dig a pond.
Gerald
Hal, um, can't remember his last name, Wyatt maybe?, had the giant tanker ship model? Fortunately I just got to watch that one, never had to lift it. Beautiful model.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on May 07, 2018, 02:42:24 PM
Yes that was his last name. There were two parts that were really difficult, the lowering of a 6ft long 65 pound model into the water without overbalancing and sliding it into the back of his station wagon without pinching a finger. Before he bought the station wagon he took the model to the dealers to make sure it fit,
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 07, 2018, 05:49:50 PM
A few pics from the pool run last night:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wjo634jbr/IMG_1799.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/i1qyujzk7/IMG_1795.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/q790spviv/IMG_1808.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/5lu91dqyv/IMG_1818.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/725riywaf/IMG_1825.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Mikem on May 08, 2018, 12:12:48 AM
Hi Chris on moving your shovel , I think I can find enough trucks to move your shovel , I think we could even get transport fees waived . Mike
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 08, 2018, 12:48:14 AM
Hi Chris on moving your shovel , I think I can find enough trucks to move your shovel , I think we could even get transport fees waived . Mike

Move aside Mike. I've already got plans. And for his little turtle too.  ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 08, 2018, 02:09:04 AM
Hey Mike/Zee, thanks for the offers to help moving it, but, um, I want it back again!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on May 08, 2018, 02:50:03 PM
Hi Chris,
Hey Mike/Zee, thanks for the offers to help moving it, but, um, I want it back again!   :cheers:

[/quote] perhaps you could put a discreet GPS tracking device inside ..!!!!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 08, 2018, 05:35:02 PM
Hi Chris,
Hey Mike/Zee, thanks for the offers to help moving it, but, um, I want it back again!   :cheers:


perhaps you could put a discreet GPS tracking device inside ..!!!!!
Or a dye pack like the banks use!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on May 08, 2018, 05:39:42 PM
More likely the Elves will build a "hidden" room into it & when Zee takes it home................. :facepalm:

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 08, 2018, 06:59:06 PM
More likely the Elves will build a "hidden" room into it & when Zee takes it home................. :facepalm:

Cheers Kerrin
Oooh - Ye Olde Trojan Shovel ploy, eh?    :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 08, 2018, 07:31:48 PM
You all do realize I'm right here?  ;D

I would need to quarantine the thing anyway. Have to make sure no elves took a joy ride.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 08, 2018, 07:44:01 PM
You all do realize I'm right here?  ;D

I would need to quarantine the thing anyway. Have to make sure no elves took a joy ride.
Yes - we see you there in the back of the room. Never stopped our planning on the other things we did to you...  :LittleDevil:

You have plenty of time to plot how to steal and quarantine the shovel, wont be done for quite a while yet. Plenty of time for me to train more dragon-riding attack ninja elve guards...!

 :cheers:

On the progress front: been working on the cross beams, got the stock shaped down to size, started milling the shapes in - more info and pics tomorrow most likely, not passing up this awesome weather!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 08, 2018, 11:23:30 PM
Did get some more time in the shop this afternoon, heres the photos to get caught up on the last couple of days.

Roughed out the insides of the cross beams to depth with a larger end mill, leaving the sides a little thick, which let me do this part by eye, much quicker than trying to take them to finished dimensions, plus left stock to finish with a mall end mill so the inside corners were radiused rather than square.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/raarlsmnr/IMG_2746.jpg)
After all the beams were done on both sides like that, came back with a small ball end mill and took them to final thickness on the sides:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/vw6vu50h3/IMG_2749.jpg)
This shot shows one thinned down (right) and one still roughed in (left)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/jhk3tuj9j/IMG_2750.jpg)
The longer front beam gets a small hole for the hoist chain to pass through, the rear one got a large hole to match the originals. More of the front one is left intact since the fore-aft subframe beams bolt to it.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/nqotvzrnr/IMG_2751.jpg)
The rear long beam and all the side short ones get most of the center web removed - originals are this way to save material, plus allow control rods to pass through them.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9x0h6ym7r/IMG_2754.jpg)
Fnial milling step was to notch the corners to fit inside the long main beam flanges.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/is1bhgvkn/IMG_2755.jpg)
Here are the beams so far - they are set on top of the main beams, the will be down lined up with them when installed. Still need to drill all the holes for the long bolts that run side to side to connect everything into one solid unit. The rear set are all in one line, the front center beam sits slightly forward of the side beams to give the gear train more room. I am not sure if the hole in the front center beam, for the hoist chain, goes at the top or bottom, need to look back at the plans for that...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/is1bhh3af/IMG_2757.jpg)


EDIT: yup, as I suspected, the small hole in the front center beam goes at the bottom, so I have it set in place upsidedown in that last photo. The chain comes back from the sheave under the turntable, through that hole, and winds around the hoist drum from the bottom.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on May 09, 2018, 04:05:33 AM
I love watching it all come together!   :popcorn:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 09, 2018, 04:26:16 AM
I love watching it all come together!   :popcorn:

Kim
Thanks Kim, tonight I actually had to take some of it apart. The A frame, turntable and booms were lifted off the subframe, so I could test fit the subframe to the main frame. Little filing at one spot, so far so good. Next is to use the subframe as drill guides for the rows of bolts that hold them together, and drill the holes for the cross rods. Pics on that as it progresses...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: J.L. on May 09, 2018, 01:17:28 PM
 :popcorn:  :popcorn:

John
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 09, 2018, 01:32:45 PM
With the turntable and booms removed (looks like the aftermath of a bad quarry accident) ,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fbvvm7gbb/IMG_2765.jpg)
started fitting the subframe and cross beams:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7j57u8i1z/IMG_2762.jpg)
These show how the subframe adds extra support at the front of the framework. Next step is to start drilling all the bolt holes...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9npkvb493/IMG_2764.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 09, 2018, 01:37:51 PM
That is huge. I don't recall...what's the scale?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on May 09, 2018, 03:21:23 PM
Yes, it does look like a terrible accident happened!  Hope all the elves made it out of the quarry before the big steam shovel collapsed!  :Lol:

So, Chris, are the brass crossbeam pieces going to line up? Or will they be staggered like that first set closest to the turntable base?

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 09, 2018, 04:10:09 PM
That is huge. I don't recall...what's the scale?
3/4":1',  or 1/16th. The original machine is enormous, so the model needed to be big enough for the engines to work. Depending where the dipper is, its going to be about 4 foot long.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 09, 2018, 04:15:16 PM
Yes, it does look like a terrible accident happened!  Hope all the elves made it out of the quarry before the big steam shovel collapsed!  :Lol:

So, Chris, are the brass crossbeam pieces going to line up? Or will they be staggered like that first set closest to the turntable base?

Kim
They are just set in place loose at the moment. The rear ones, to the left, will line up. The other set are staggered. There is one more set to make, which will be over the rear tracks, and takes the main weight  of the boiler. That set is much wider on the top and bottom flanges, not made yet. The floor has a big opening between the wider center beams, where the gear trains and winding drums will sit.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on May 09, 2018, 09:34:44 PM
Good to see you back at your proper job, Chris, after dallying with submarines and lounging in rocking chairs, however well-earned that time off might be.

I'm still following your progress with wonder and amazement  :praise2: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 09, 2018, 10:03:40 PM
Good to see you back at your proper job, Chris, after dallying with submarines and lounging in rocking chairs, however well-earned that time off might be.

I'm still following your progress with wonder and amazement  :praise2: :cheers:
Thanks - the time off was a good recharge! More time in the rocker today, mixed in with shop time.

Also: note for anyone near Buffalo NY - on Sunday June 17th they are holding the open house and tour of the Ward Pumping Station at 1:00 - it has a set of enormous water pumping engines. They are not running, but you can walk all around the catwalks, they have a guided tour too. No charge for it. I found out about the place last year, but it was one week AFTER the tour!   :censored:
Definitely going this year.
Here is a link to the website with details:
http://www.buffaloindustrialheritage.com/
Pics from a previous tour:
http://www.buffalohistorygazette.net/2010/09/holly-steam-engines-at-col-francis-g.html
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 09, 2018, 10:13:51 PM
Got the holes for attaching the swing table base drilled/tapped:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wjffunitj/IMG_2766.jpg)
As you can see here, had to support the frame beams out to the side, also had to move the mill over to the middle of the bench to get the room. The mill would not reach all the way across the frames, so did the left and right sides with the frame run each way.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/x8y870r2v/IMG_2767.jpg)
Found that there is enough room to do the drilling for the rest of the holes with the middle two rails assembled to the front subframe, so I went ahead and ran in the rest of the bolts. The two outer frame rails will just be held with a couple bolts for now, so I can take them off easily to get at the inner ones for horizontal holes for all the control rods and such.
Here are some pics showing the state of it so far:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/58u4mr31z/IMG_2769.jpg)
It is sitting up in the air since the bottom cross beam is in place. That beam has mount holes in the ends to take the lower track holder connections.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6nvpbhjkn/IMG_2770.jpg)
Next up is to drill the holes for the long rods that bolt the frames together side to side at the cross beams.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/u23onets7/IMG_2772.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 09, 2018, 10:47:04 PM
Yes that was his last name. There were two parts that were really difficult, the lowering of a 6ft long 65 pound model into the water without overbalancing and sliding it into the back of his station wagon without pinching a finger. Before he bought the station wagon he took the model to the dealers to make sure it fit,
Gerald.
Hey Gerald,
On the 19th, we are having our first RC submarine run of the season at the pond here, picnic too. Some of the Toronto submarine guys usually come down for it too, have not heard yet who is coming this year. Some others from Ohio will be here.
Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 10, 2018, 05:15:34 PM
Got the holes drilled for the cross bolt rods for the beams:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/59hk30idz/IMG_2773.jpg)
Here is one of the front cross beams bolted up - you can see the rods passing through the cross beam to the next long beam.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/x9lnnae4n/IMG_2774.jpg)
On the rear sets of cross beams, the beams are all in line, so the cross bolts go from one side of the main frame all the way to the other, in one piece, squeezing the entire frame together. They must have had fun lining all that up and getting the rods in. On mine, I had to use a pointed fid, like what Cletus mentioned in an earlier post, to line up the holes. Need to thread the ends of four more short rods, and all 8 of the long rods, and can assemble the rest.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dan Rowe on May 10, 2018, 05:53:09 PM
Chris, the wrench used for aligning bolt holes is a structural steel wrench or as we always called them spud wrenches. We used then a lot on ships to get the bolts back in a flange that would not quite line up.
https://www.aftfasteners.com/structural-wrenches/

Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 10, 2018, 06:19:28 PM
Chris, the wrench used for aligning bolt holes is a structural steel wrench or as we always called them spud wrenches. We used then a lot on ships to get the bolts back in a flange that would not quite line up.
https://www.aftfasteners.com/structural-wrenches/ (https://www.aftfasteners.com/structural-wrenches/)

Dan
Spud wrench. Gotcha - basically the same on the pointy end as a fid, from my nautical background. Thanks!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 10, 2018, 11:16:26 PM
All the cross beams in the first two sets are in and bolted. You can see them in each corner of the beams, above and below the center openings. These are all threaded 3-48 at the ends, using scale nuts from American Model Engineering.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/zaldz91sn/IMG_2776.jpg)
View down the length of the frames (had to move the turntable off to another cabinet for a while to make room for the frame).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wgi8lsrwn/IMG_2775.jpg)
The first two sets of cross beams are there, next up is to make up the rear set (to the left) which support the rear tracks (they held the rear railroad truck set before the track conversion). The third set has wider flanges top/bottom, 1-1/4", where the front sets are under 1/2" wide. This last set supports the rear tracks, the boiler, and also anchors the long stays that hold up the A-frame at the front. I am going to piece these up, kind of a combination of what I did for the main frame rails and the cross beams.

On a side note, the meetings and presentations on the real machine are starting to have benefit, the historical society has received a couple of $1000 donations to the signage and stabilization efforts. There is a festival coming up this summer where they will be publicizing it, will have the model there for that again. The society is also persuing some grants, though that can take a while to come through if at all. I am going out again next week to get some more photos, realized I have tons of detail shots but not many ones that take in larger subsystems and areas - need some good portrait shots of it as well. Sigh. Forest. Trees. You understand...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on May 11, 2018, 01:07:11 AM
Yes that was his last name. There were two parts that were really difficult, the lowering of a 6ft long 65 pound model into the water without overbalancing and sliding it into the back of his station wagon without pinching a finger. Before he bought the station wagon he took the model to the dealers to make sure it fit,
Gerald.
Hey Gerald,
On the 19th, we are having our first RC submarine run of the season at the pond here, picnic too. Some of the Toronto submarine guys usually come down for it too, have not heard yet who is coming this year. Some others from Ohio will be here.
Chris
Hi Chris,
I would love to come down, unfortunately my wife has me booked for a World Fiddle Day event on that date.
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 11, 2018, 01:44:49 AM
Yes that was his last name. There were two parts that were really difficult, the lowering of a 6ft long 65 pound model into the water without overbalancing and sliding it into the back of his station wagon without pinching a finger. Before he bought the station wagon he took the model to the dealers to make sure it fit,
Gerald.
Hey Gerald,
On the 19th, we are having our first RC submarine run of the season at the pond here, picnic too. Some of the Toronto submarine guys usually come down for it too, have not heard yet who is coming this year. Some others from Ohio will be here.
Chris
Hi Chris,
I would love to come down, unfortunately my wife has me booked for a World Fiddle Day event on that date.
Gerald.
You're a fiddler? Or she is? Never knew they had a holiday.


We do more events every month, another picnic one in the fall.


On the model, got some bar stock rough cut to piece up the rear cross beams...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ShopShoe on May 11, 2018, 01:21:08 PM
Slight OT, Nomenclature Question.

I have seen the wrench used by plumbers (here in Central USA) to tighten drain fittings, and sold as such, also called Spud Wrenches. A quick web search turns up a few. I am curious how the terms originated.

Back to plumbing: I know that dropping pipes from fixtures down for future connecting to main piping is "stubbing." Did someone modify the words along the way? (For example, from my distant days in a print shop I once knew the difference between "offset," "off-set," and "setoff.")

--ShopShoe
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 11, 2018, 01:54:11 PM
Slight OT, Nomenclature Question.

I have seen the wrench used by plumbers (here in Central USA) to tighten drain fittings, and sold as such, also called Spud Wrenches. A quick web search turns up a few. I am curious how the terms originated.

Back to plumbing: I know that dropping pipes from fixtures down for future connecting to main piping is "stubbing." Did someone modify the words along the way? (For example, from my distant days in a print shop I once knew the difference between "offset," "off-set," and "setoff.")

--ShopShoe
Wouldn't be surprised if the term for those wrenches varied by location too, like so many others.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on May 11, 2018, 02:10:41 PM
Hi people ,over here across the pond...spuds are the bits of metal they bolt onto traction engine wheels to let them traverse muddy ground better...they were bolted on with the tool called a spud wrench (spanner)  i think ...not too sure but that is what my brain told my fingers to write !!!
Willy.........
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on May 11, 2018, 02:55:11 PM
Yes that was his last name. There were two parts that were really difficult, the lowering of a 6ft long 65 pound model into the water without overbalancing and sliding it into the back of his station wagon without pinching a finger. Before he bought the station wagon he took the model to the dealers to make sure it fit,
Gerald.
Hey Gerald,
On the 19th, we are having our first RC submarine run of the season at the pond here, picnic too. Some of the Toronto submarine guys usually come down for it too, have not heard yet who is coming this year. Some others from Ohio will be here.
Chris
Hi Chris,
I would love to come down, unfortunately my wife has me booked for a World Fiddle Day event on that date.
Gerald.
You're a fiddler? Or she is? Never knew they had a holiday.


We do more events every month, another picnic one in the fall.


On the model, got some bar stock rough cut to piece up the rear cross beams...
She is the one that fiddles around, I have no musical talent."World Fiddle Day is an annual celebration of fiddle music, held on the third Saturday May. World Fiddle Day events are held around the world, …" https://worldfiddledaytoronto.ca/
Gerald. 
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 11, 2018, 04:29:59 PM
I have seen the wrench used by plumbers (here in Central USA) to tighten drain fittings, and sold as such, also called Spud Wrenches. A quick web search turns up a few. I am curious how the terms originated.

Irish potatoes. AKA spuds. The tool used to dig them up.

I enjoy googling the origins of words and terms.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 11, 2018, 04:55:47 PM
Hi people ,over here across the pond...spuds are the bits of metal they bolt onto traction engine wheels to let them traverse muddy ground better...they were bolted on with the tool called a spud wrench (spanner)  i think ...not too sure but that is what my brain told my fingers to write !!!
Willy.........
On the Lombard build, I learned that the ridges molded into the tracks for traction were Grousers. Is that just an American term? Or are the spuds bolted on a different name for a slightly different implementation?

Fun stuff.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 11, 2018, 04:56:24 PM
I have seen the wrench used by plumbers (here in Central USA) to tighten drain fittings, and sold as such, also called Spud Wrenches. A quick web search turns up a few. I am curious how the terms originated.

Irish potatoes. AKA spuds. The tool used to dig them up.

I enjoy googling the origins of words and terms.
The spud wrench is not how you adjust the potatos?!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 11, 2018, 05:08:12 PM
I have seen the wrench used by plumbers (here in Central USA) to tighten drain fittings, and sold as such, also called Spud Wrenches. A quick web search turns up a few. I am curious how the terms originated.

Irish potatoes. AKA spuds. The tool used to dig them up.

I enjoy googling the origins of words and terms.
The spud wrench is not how you adjust the potatos?!

No. I use a masticator to adjust my potatoes.  ;D

If you're using a spud wrench to adjust potatoes, I'd be interested in a video.  ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 11, 2018, 05:33:50 PM
I have seen the wrench used by plumbers (here in Central USA) to tighten drain fittings, and sold as such, also called Spud Wrenches. A quick web search turns up a few. I am curious how the terms originated.

Irish potatoes. AKA spuds. The tool used to dig them up.

I enjoy googling the origins of words and terms.
The spud wrench is not how you adjust the potatos?!

No. I use a masticator to adjust my potatoes.  ;D

If you're using a spud wrench to adjust potatoes, I'd be interested in a video.  ;D
Guess it could mash them well...   :stir:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dan Rowe on May 11, 2018, 05:43:51 PM
Here is the best history of a spud wrench I found:
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=663588653750798&id=125860680856934&refsrc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F&_rdr

If you check wiki it says in the UK a spud wrench is a podging spanner or a podger,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrench

I think a spud wrench would be much better at planting spuds then harvisting them.

Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on May 11, 2018, 06:34:37 PM
Might be a little messy, but you could always mash the spuds with the spud wrench.  You could always pretend you're Gallagher.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on May 11, 2018, 07:40:51 PM
I think this link will show what Dan and I would refer to as a “spud wrench” . An image of a crossed set of these have always symbolized the iron workers craft. I worked with one crew that had “spud wrench throwing” contests and all their cookouts. Much like knife or hatchet throwing; and some of those old boys were quite accurate.

https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/01844216

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 11, 2018, 07:43:49 PM
Someone should come up with a software tool (won't be me) that graphs a forum thread and its various tangents, forks, and branches.
It could make interesting wall art.  :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 11, 2018, 08:44:39 PM
Someone should come up with a software tool (won't be me) that graphs a forum thread and its various tangents, forks, and branches.
It could make interesting wall art.  :lolb:
The tool will be named after you, why not write it too?   :ROFL:

The side trips are what keep things fun and interesting. Kind of things that drove our bosses (more) nuts, but that was fun for us!  :Jester:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 11, 2018, 08:59:12 PM
Oh, and as for the model progress, am currently cutting down and trimming bar stock for the rear cross beam...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 11, 2018, 10:40:54 PM
The strips for the rear beams are cut and trimmed to size, also got the holes drilled for some temporary screws to hold them together for silver soldering. Still need to tap the holes, and can get them soldered up. After soldering, will cut the openings in the centers of the webs. The wide one in the middle gets a large anchor block for the backstay to the A-frame, so that one has two small openings at the sides rather than one large one all the way across. Tapping the holes will take a little longer, trying not to stress the right wrist too much, healing up from some tendonitis in the thumb (the elves are all off at a beer fest somewhere, or they could do it for me  :shrug: ).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9ly894biv/IMG_2778.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 11, 2018, 11:32:29 PM
All I did today was drill a hole and machine a nut.  :'(

However!! That was to fix a garden tool for T and the reward is priceless (along with a, and I quote, "Cool!".).
(Mainly...she's beginning to realize my shop has benefits for her too.  :lolb: )
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 11, 2018, 11:36:41 PM
All I did today was drill a hole and machine a nut.  :'(

However!! That was to fix a garden tool for T and the reward is priceless (along with a, and I quote, "Cool!".).
(Mainly...she's beginning to realize my shop has benefits for her too.  :lolb: )
Yup - same effect when your friends find out you have a truck big enough to move their stuff!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ShopShoe on May 12, 2018, 01:18:57 PM
"Yup - same effect when your friends find out you have a truck big enough to move their stuff!"

Seen on a bumper sticker: "Yes, this is my truck. NO, I will not help you move."

--

Thank you for the explanation(s) of the names for spuds and spud wrenches above. It was quite a fork and diversion.

ShopShoe
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 12, 2018, 05:15:01 PM
The holes in the center webs are all tapped, and the parts assembled for silver soldering:(https://s5.postimg.cc/rg7ifpjbr/IMG_2779.jpg)The 'V' lines are light shadows - had not noticed that when I took the pics...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on May 12, 2018, 11:39:47 PM
Still following along with interest Chris  :popcorn:

The work on this project seems endless  :)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 13, 2018, 12:32:22 AM
Still following along with interest Chris  :popcorn:

The work on this project seems endless  :)
Thanks Craig, there is still a long way to go on this one, which is a lot of fun. Things are paused today, head cold got me fuzzy enough to not want to break out the torch! Improving quick, hope this isn't one that holds on and on.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on May 13, 2018, 03:37:04 PM
Still with you Dog and enjoying it. A link below to a steam shovel.

https://www.facebook.com/audie.taquino/posts/10213418436988584
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 13, 2018, 04:21:06 PM
Still with you Dog and enjoying it. A link below to a steam shovel.

https://www.facebook.com/audie.taquino/posts/10213418436988584 (https://www.facebook.com/audie.taquino/posts/10213418436988584)
Hi Don!
I am not a FB member, so cannot see that post...  :-[   This forum is as close as I get to antisocial media!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 13, 2018, 09:18:06 PM
Got the rear cross beams silver soldered up, and made the backstay anchor block, which holds the ends of the backstay bars that hold up the front A-frame. The block was pieced up from some 1" square bar and some 1/4" flat bar, trimmed to width/length, and drilled for the cross pin. The radius on the end was done with the drill-through-the-hole method on the mill.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9yuocdadz/IMG_2780.jpg)The slots were then milled in to take the backstay bars:(https://s5.postimg.cc/hrlc4cvsn/IMG_2781.jpg)With the beams silver soldered, cleaned up, centers of the webs milled out like on the other beams, here is a test fit with the cross bolts:(https://s5.postimg.cc/t3xxm4wrr/IMG_2785.jpg)Next step is to drill the holes in the long beams for the bolts, and can assemble it. At the same time as drilling those holes, will drill a couple other cross holes that will take some of the control pivots later on, for the hoist brake and swing throttle linkages. All the other control rods anchor underneath and on the sides, so no need for long cross holes for them.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 14, 2018, 12:43:19 AM
Got the holes drilled for the long bolts that hold the rear cross beams in place. Lots of measurements, then a while to figure out how to clamp the frame on its side to the mill table. The drill press I have is not set up with any X/Y table with any precision, so it was done on the mill. The frame is so wide, I had to use the 3-jaw chuck to get the last bit of height for the drill bit. I could have taken the frame apart to do the rails individually, but that would have been a whole lot more work.(https://s5.postimg.cc/hvf5kjw47/IMG_2787.jpg)Here is the rear cross beam in place - note that the cross rods go through the stay anchor in the middle as well.(https://s5.postimg.cc/sv0cw5u93/IMG_2788.jpg)And a wider shot showing the entire frame - having to back up a lot more to get it all in!(https://s5.postimg.cc/z8pfzf6uv/IMG_2789.jpg)Next is to take the rear plate off the frame, to drill the holes for the coal deck supports and the steering gear shaft. The rear tracks are not driven for movement, but they pivot for steering, and the steam engine that powers the pivot of the rear tracks is behind the boiler on the left side. A gear driven shaft runs forward through the frame to a worm gear that turns the power 90 degrees across the frame, where another really long worm gear moves a tiller left and right, moving the rear tracks with it. The front tracks are driven, and provide the motive power to move the shovel. On the original machine before the tracks, there was no need for the steering engine since the shovel ran on railroad rails, powered by chains from the hoist engine to the axles.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 14, 2018, 01:03:40 AM
I think I finally understand why your progress seems so rapid.

You must have a collection of raw stock of Brobdingnagian proportions!  We almost never hear you lamenting, "As soon as the ... arrives, I'll start work on ..." I'm sitting here imagining a rented Boeing 747 hangar filled to the ceiling with every type of material, in every shape and size increment.

I'm also imagining a smaller, Piper-cub size hangar filled with all the currency you use to buy all the brass you're using in this project.

Keep up the great work.  We're all enjoying this thread immensely.
Turns out that this came up again - was about figure out how to lay down the plate for the flooring on the frames, realized that I did not have enough wide thin stock, so just ordered some thin aluminum from McMaster, but not much delay since it will be here Tuesday. Nice having one of their warehouse centers 60 miles away so things arrive in a business day....And yes, threw in some more brass plate, always using the stuff, so the hanger gets a little fuller...! :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 14, 2018, 01:15:13 PM
Holes done in the rear plate and all is reassembled again - here is a nice family shot of the booms and frame. Had to put some weight on the rear of the frame or when I pull on the hoist chain the frame went up in the air! The boiler, engines, gears, etc will be plenty to hold it down when they are made.(https://s5.postimg.cc/3uccqihmf/IMG_2796.jpg)Next up is the set of bars for the backstay links, currently just a piece of string. Then will do the rear deck frames, which were added at the quarry at some point to make a permenant coal deck rather than the fold-up one that the shovel was originally built with - the frames will be about another 6" longer than they are now. This was a common modification in quarries - the fold up deck was fine when transporting by rail to different locations, but the permenant deck gave more room and was more solid. Another modification most places did was to add scaffolding down the sides at floor level, walking through the cab when running the engines is very dangerous since there is a very narrow walking space between the walls and the gears.Heading out to the quarry in a little while to get more pictures, also taking my mother along to tour the shovel (part of an extended mothers day). Also going to take tracings of the root of the missing tooth on the dipper bucket so I can fabricate a replacement for it.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on May 14, 2018, 02:17:23 PM
Chris, hope you won't mind me sharing a thought on the layout of the postings. I think they would display better in my browser if there was a carriage return before and after the photo; as things are the text gets a bit confusing, and some photos get pushed over to the right. I know other devices interpret the display differently so maybe it's just me. I'm using Firefox on a desktop PC.

Still following your progress! This thread is my first port of call every morning  :cheers:

P.S. Just checked and it's the same on Chrome.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 14, 2018, 08:43:51 PM
Chris, hope you won't mind me sharing a thought on the layout of the postings. I think they would display better in my browser if there was a carriage return before and after the photo; as things are the text gets a bit confusing, and some photos get pushed over to the right. I know other devices interpret the display differently so maybe it's just me. I'm using Firefox on a desktop PC.

Still following your progress! This thread is my first port of call every morning  :cheers:

P.S. Just checked and it's the same on Chrome.
Thats odd - I DO have carriage returns before/after the photos in the text lines, just not blank lines. I am using Firefox on my PC (windows), and I do not get that wrapping like you show.

EDIT: now I see it like that, if I make the window wider. Odd though, when I compose the messages I am putting 'return's in bfore/after the photos. Must be something about how the site is doing the formatting? Wonder if there is a setting somewhere for that...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on May 14, 2018, 10:16:12 PM
Yes, when I narrow the window the photos line up properly, but the text still starts beside the photo instead of below. As you say, probably the site software. Having dabbled in web design I know how hard it is to get things to work on all the different devices  :killcomputer:

Sorry, didn't meant to divert you from the proper job, which is moving on at a fantastic pace . . . really loving all the fabrication work  :cheers:

Mike.

P.S. ( again! ) It looks perfect on my Blackberry Passport  8)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 14, 2018, 10:41:44 PM
No sweat Mike!


Today was fun, took my mother out to tour the shovel, perfect weather to get out. As usual, spotted more details I missed before. Lots more pictures. I took tracings of the bucket teeth, thinking of making a replacement tip for the missing one. Those things are huge when you get up close!


The historical society is setting up the restoration fund at their meeting tonight, more things getting moving. Exciting stuff.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 15, 2018, 01:52:36 AM
Looking to make the backstay bars, which are 3/16" x3/8" section with larger discs at the ends to hold the pins. Going to silver solder discs onto the bar ends, guess I need to come up with another little clamp. The bars wont fit through the lathe headstock for drilling, way longer than the ways or mill column too, so no good way to pin them on. Sketching up some clamp ideas...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 15, 2018, 03:44:19 PM
Think I have the clamps for the backstay bar ends worked out. Here are what the ends look like, turned out of some bar stock, flattened to match the width of the bar, drilled for the cross pins and parted off:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/617v6f4jb/IMG_2798.jpg)
I was milling up the clamp plates, and this happened on the mill:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/uhq10vpuf/IMG_2799.jpg)
The switch post snapped off - took a minute to figure out what it was, thought a part fell off the light fixture at first. Guess it can only take so many thousand activations.... Metal looks like typical crap zinc alloy, very grainy. At least I can still turn it on/off with the end of a hex wrench while I order a replacemet...Anyway, here is what the clamp looks like, with the parts held in with some 4-40 screws:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/pvtwsjc13/IMG_2800.jpg)
The hole underneath should allow the torch to heat the part through for soldering, and keep the solder from sticking it to the clamp. Made up two to speed the work, need to make up three bars with the discs at either end.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 15, 2018, 08:16:22 PM
Got the ends all silver soldered on the backstay bars, then trimmed them flush with the surface of the bars (they were still left a bit thick from parting off the longer bar).(https://s5.postimg.cc/ybo2nlosn/IMG_2802.jpg)
I made up the pins to hold them, and assembled them to the frame. There are two shorter bars at the back, and one long one at the front going up to the top of the a-frame.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/599skshyf/IMG_2804.jpg)
Here is a shot of it all, with the bucket swung over to the right side:(https://s5.postimg.cc/eh211hhav/IMG_2808.jpg)
All working well, definitely needs the tracks and outriggers for support when swinging to the side, gets a little tippy!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 16, 2018, 01:40:25 AM
The aluminum plate for the floors arrived today, here is the 2" outer plates set on the frames, some of the 4" plates for the center strip is in the foreground. Going to need to mill off a fraction down the sides to get the final dimensions, then cut lots of openings for boiler, supports, stays, pipes, etc.  This stuff looks pretty decent, think I will use the same for the cab walls later on (the originals were wood, but the quarry replaced them with steel plate at some point during its 43 years in the quarry).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/pkutytp53/IMG_2813.jpg)
Also got another length of angle iron made from two strips for the rear deck supports. Still need to make up some lengths of small I beams too - going to make a mini version of the clamps I made for the large main beams. These will be from 3/16" and 1/4" strips rather than the 1/2" and 1-1/4" ones for the larger set.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/rpf6zwyhj/IMG_2814.jpg)
Tomorrow I am going to split off and do a motor swap in the sea turtle submarine, have a higher performance one I want to try this weekend at the pond for our outdoor kickoff picnic. After that will be back on the metal work again...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 16, 2018, 10:29:44 PM
The other parts needed for the rear coal deck include a set of small I beams, so I whipped up a set of smaller clamps like the ones used on the large main beams, from some 3/4" wide steel bar. Lesson learned from the large ones, make the openings on the sides with the screws larger so they will come off the freshly soldered beams easier, even with lumps of flux and soot sticking up.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wntz6c4gn/IMG_2815.jpg)
They were milled up as a long bar, and drilled for the side holes, then cut apart and the end holes drilled.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6sa8n5ps7/IMG_2816.jpg)
Here is how they hold the steel strips for soldering:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/uj9m59i9j/IMG_2818.jpg)
and the finished product, ready for trimming to length. One of the strips had a section that the solder did not penetrate on, so I just re-soldered that section.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/i4mu4xj1j/IMG_2819.jpg)
So now that I have a couple lengths of I beam and a length of angle stock, will start cutting them up into the individual parts, and drilling for attaching to the main frames...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on May 17, 2018, 12:31:01 AM
Dog all that setup your doing is slicker then grease on a slip and slide! Love the think through and the results are awesome. You just make it look to easy Chris but of coarse we have to give the Elf’s credit too. Do you ever sleep Dog?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 17, 2018, 12:36:52 AM
Dog all that setup your doing is slicker then grease on a slip and slide! Love the think through and the results are awesome. You just make it look to easy Chris but of coarse we have to give the Elf’s credit too. Do you ever sleep Dog?


Oh yeah, had a couple of naps on the porch this afternoon, gotta love this weather we are finally getting! 


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: MJM460 on May 17, 2018, 04:10:50 AM
Oh, boy, ideas for a couple more "Crueby clamps".  Admiring the thread every day, but learning something I can use as well.  With these clamp ideas I might even learn to make a properly aligned Silver soldered fabrication.

Amazing progress on the shovel, and wonderfully documented.  Thanks for all your effort in posting it.

MJM460
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 17, 2018, 01:40:49 PM
Oh, boy, ideas for a couple more "Crueby clamps".  Admiring the thread every day, but learning something I can use as well.  With these clamp ideas I might even learn to make a properly aligned Silver soldered fabrication.

Amazing progress on the shovel, and wonderfully documented.  Thanks for all your effort in posting it.

MJM460
Thanks MJM, the clamps have worked out very well, quick to make and they are small enough not be heat sinks. Much easier on these long parts than rows of screws that have to be milled off or filled.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 17, 2018, 08:48:16 PM
Got some time in between outside fun to get the holes drilled in the angle and I beams for the rear deck:(https://s5.postimg.cc/s33nx2ubr/IMG_2821.jpg)
Here is a test fit of the parts so far. The far side set gets another vertical support at the wide end, since that one was cut away for the steering gear. Note that this rear deck was something bodged up in the field by the quarry, not made by Marion. The original rear deck was a folding set of doors to keep the machine short enough to be part of a train, the quarry extended the rear deck to a fixed platform, probably when the tracks went on. That is why the metal used for the rear deck is such a mishmash of sizes, they just used what they had locally.(https://s5.postimg.cc/4c4aez1uf/IMG_2822.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 18, 2018, 03:39:22 PM
Starting on the floor plates, out of some thin aluminum stock - have some 2, 4, and 6" wide strips for the different areas, still need a little trimming on the width to fit. Cut a piece of the 6" wide for the coal deck, then milled the slot for the steering gear to project through, and drilled holes to match the ones in the I-beam tops. Here is a view from the side, showing the slot, plus how the beams on that side are cut away and braced for the gear. As I mentioned last time, this deck area was added out in the quarry, not part of the original machine.(https://s5.postimg.cc/t6agmzwuf/IMG_2827.jpg)
View from underneath - have to remember not to lay it flat on the table without a block underneath.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/x2nsizx9j/IMG_2826.jpg)
To put the screw holes into the ends of the main I-beams, got out my little Proxxon drill press and swung the headstock out to the side. With it clamped to the beams, it makes a great portable drill - mini version of the magnetic one that someone described a while back in a full size factory.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/l0seou0vr/IMG_2829.jpg)
Here is the coal deck all bolted in - the parts are quite rigid now that its all held together.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/i6p9bee53/IMG_2831.jpg)
Next I'll start on the plates for the main floor - they will be in one wide strip in the center, two narrow ones on the outside, and need to have lots of openings for all the pipes, controls, the firebox grates, boiler support, all that. There is also a large area in the center where the gear trains go that has no floor.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 18, 2018, 07:42:21 PM
The replacement power switch for my Sherline mill arrived today, turned out to be a quick install (and they sent me the part free, which was nice too) so back in full action again. I've started milling out the openings in the center floor plate, and will be drilling mount holes as well, pictures as it gets assembled later. First, need to get the subs prepped for the pond tomorrow, assuming the rain is not too bad to stand out in it all day. If its too rainy/windy, it will just be a gab session with everyone under the picnic pavilion, which is fun too. And yes, the subs don't care about the rain, but our transmitters do!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on May 18, 2018, 07:51:22 PM
If y’all are going to be under a cover, would the “subs” know it was raining  :thinking: :shrug: 8)

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 18, 2018, 08:13:45 PM
If y’all are going to be under a cover, would the “subs” know it was raining  :thinking: :shrug: 8)

Cletus
Problem is the pavilion is quite a ways from the pond, and view is blocked by some trees, so we can't run from there....
Does sound like one of those philosophy questions, if a fish falls in the pond and no one is there, did it make a sound? Or something like that!   :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on May 18, 2018, 09:17:26 PM
Or remember this from childhood: “Get out of the pool, it’s raining “ :Doh: :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 18, 2018, 09:21:46 PM
Or remember this from childhood: “Get out of the pool, it’s raining “ :Doh: :lolb:


Yes!


 :Lol:


And the ever popular,  Put on your socks, I'm cold!



Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on May 19, 2018, 12:21:26 PM
Reminded me of the story about the Buddhist monk who saved fish from drowning;  they died anyway so he are them.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ShopShoe on May 19, 2018, 04:32:13 PM
My Grandmother kept telling my Dad, "Don't go near the water 'till you learn how to swim!" (According to Family Legend).

ShopShoe
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on May 19, 2018, 11:47:56 PM
My Grandmother kept telling my Dad, "Don't go near the water 'till you learn how to swim!" (According to Family Legend).

ShopShoe
My mother warned me that I wouldn't be allowed to start public school unless I learned to swim first. Sounds a bit strange, but there was reason behind it. I had to walk past four lakes between my house and the school which was a mile away. We never had a kid drownd in our community, but EVERY kid had to learn to swim before they were allowed to walk to school.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 20, 2018, 12:08:23 AM
Speaking of going past the lakes - I was off at the local pond today for our season kickoff of the RC submarine group's outdoor runs, big gathering and picnic, had several from Canada, Ohio, and West Virginia stop up for the day. No one drowned, and all the boats came back in too (couple drifted in but thats okay).
I took my sea turtle and killer whale subs (plus a truck) to run. The whale went quite well, as usual. The sea turtle had a new motor in it, more speed and power to try and get the performance up a bit. That worked out to be the case, so much so that it snapped the timing belt connecting the motor to the twin prop shafts!   :cussing: Sigh. Some redesign needed there!Anyway, here are some pics from the day:

Starting with the sea turtle crying over his broken drive belt - had a short run, but it worked well till the break:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5ud66vtnr/IMG_1845.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/c829a2lo7/IMG_1834.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/wffp2dqvb/IMG_1835.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/r40shorxz/IMG_1836.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/n7ngloriv/IMG_1837.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/rgs6nv2hz/IMG_1838.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/79eqvkkg7/IMG_1839.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/dacfsnes7/IMG_1840.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/mi4o9d19z/IMG_1841.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/b5s2rkkvb/IMG_1842.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/jo1ivx6tj/IMG_1843.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/cxl1mhrdj/IMG_1844.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/sx3p5gn93/IMG_1857.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/68ei5wdl3/IMG_1865.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/wgpmvad47/IMG_1876.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/p0qd9hx4n/IMG_1882.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/v1o26k4bb/IMG_1894.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/sx3p5hptz/IMG_1895.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/g5piyznrr/IMG_1900.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/s7kwt54pz/IMG_1903.jpg)

So, side tripped for the day, should be back in the shop on the shovel tomorrow!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Mikem on May 20, 2018, 02:27:53 AM
Was that a turtle support truck ?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 20, 2018, 02:40:27 AM
Yup! Carried its radio to the pond, and the broken belt back!   :Lol:  You can see the truck in the background behind the whale in picture 10.

The truck is from the kit you pointed me at - works great on the rough lawn and also gravel paths. A similar crawler motor as in the truck is the one that snapped the belt in the turtle. Just spent some time in Fusion 360 modelling up some replacement parts, thinking of switching the turtle to a single rather than dual gimbal system, and getting rid of the belt drive - would make it all much simpler and more durable. I think the issue on the belt was the idler pulley on the back side was too small, too much flex for a fiberglass-corded belt. Without the idler, the belt does not wrap that far around the drive pulley, and it tends to skip teeth under load. Can't go that much larger on the belt tooth pitch, or it would need larger pulleys on the output shafts, which there is not room for. There is no room in the water tight compartment for a motor per prop shaft, so its either a belt drive or gear drive, and the output shafts are very close to the WTC walls so the final gears would have to be small. A single prop system would require moving one through-hull and plugging the two existing holes, and remaking the gimbal unit.

I've got two weeks till the next pond run to get it reworked however I do it...   :thinking:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Roger B on May 20, 2018, 08:51:54 AM
Still enjoying the steam shovel build and all the distractions  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:  :wine1:

Do you loose many submarines or is the pond shallow enough to fish them out?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 20, 2018, 02:17:58 PM
Still enjoying the steam shovel build and all the distractions  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :wine1:

Do you loose many submarines or is the pond shallow enough to fish them out?
We haven't lost any permanently, have had to fish a couple out that got caught in weeds, and swum for a couple. Pond here is maybe 6 feet at the most. Thats the good thing about renting the pool over the winter, much safer place for initial trials on new boats.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 20, 2018, 05:16:59 PM
Back on the steam shovel this morning - milled the openings in the center floor plates, used a bit of plywood as a spacer on the mill table and clamped down the plates.(https://s5.postimg.cc/sh1bluuon/IMG_2832.jpg)
Drilled the clearance holes on the plates on the mill, then used the Proxxon mini drill press to drill the tap holes through those holes into the webs of the frames, and tapped/screwed them down with some 1-72 hex heads.(https://s5.postimg.cc/z7hsvax9z/IMG_2834.jpg)
Here are the installed floor plates:(https://s5.postimg.cc/lqkucff8n/IMG_2842.jpg)The opening at the rear is for the firebox grates, the narrow one in front of the backstay takes the boiler front support cradle, and the large one in front of that is where the gear trains and winding drums will sit. The large hoist engine cylinders will run down either side of the large front opening.(https://s5.postimg.cc/5fkqg4i6f/IMG_2843.jpg)
This render shows where everything goes on the inside - 100 tons in a 50 ton bag!(https://s5.postimg.cc/6vw8xrkxz/Marion_91_Close_Inside_View_-_small.png)
Next up I think I will get the front track supports made - the cap on the corner of the frame, then the links and triangular assemblies that hold the tracks. Those should be a challenge, quite a complex set of shapes.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 20, 2018, 08:41:09 PM
Pondering time!
This is one of those parts that I knew from the start would be a tricky one to make (and I need two of them). The front track supports:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fkje5dg2v/Track_Support.jpg)
The bottom tube, which holds the axle for the track assembly, is easy - it can be turned and silver soldered in place on the rest of the assembly. That 'rest of it' part is a pretty complex shape - one time when a casting would be a great place to start from. Or a big block of rectangular bar. The thickest section at the bottom is 3/4" thick, with the rest looking more like combinations of I-beams. It would be possible to piece up those areas like the I-beams were, but pretty tricky to hold it all in exact positions for soldering...
 :noidea:
 
 :thinking:
 
 :headscratch:
 
Hmmmm....
I do have some 3/8" thick flat stock that could be layered up to form the part, and mill it all out....
One thing I've never looked into would be to make a wood pattern (mill it from one big block) and get that cast. Is that practical, and economical? Could still be left as a block to mill from, I guess...
 
 :thinking:
 
Thought about getting it 3D printed and cast at someplace like Shapeways, but at this size I would guess expensive, and from what I've heard from others the cast alloy is a tough one to machine....
 
 :thinking:
 
 :shrug:
 
Suggestions, ideas, thoughts, all welcome!!!


EDIT: just checked on Shapeways for the heck of it - prices range (for the upper section only, had to remove the lower tube for overall size) from around $30 for plastic to $90 for steel (infused with bronze) to over $300 for brass! Thats each... Gack!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 20, 2018, 10:38:12 PM
More thoughts...
Looked at getting some thick aluminum bar, could get the size needed fairly cheap but the lower tube would have to be machined in or bolted on rather than silver soldered (ali does not silver solder as I recall).

Then looked at some 3/4" brass bar, could piece it up from 3 bars for the upper section plus the rod for the lower tube. Price on that is not bad, getting some 3/4" bar from Stoner on eBay. I did a similar piece up on the boiler support bracket for the Lombard, made a notched connection at each join and silver soldered, then machined that assembly.

So far that seems like the best approach for cost and strength. I think....   :thinking:    This part has to support a lot of weight and take some torsional stresses too....
 :noidea:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Gas_mantle on May 20, 2018, 10:46:21 PM
Looking great Chris  :ThumbsUp:

You sure are the expert when it comes to machining the big stuff on relatively small machines
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on May 21, 2018, 08:23:04 AM
Just thinking how I might attempt those track supports  :thinking:

Could you cut the triangular webs out of one piece of flat plate (maybe overscale, say 1/8" for more strength), then bend up the inner and outer flanges from 3/4" x 1/16" strip. Might be easier to hold it all together for brazing with only three separate pieces.

Perhaps the axle tube could have a 1/8" slot milled along the top to take the lower edge of the web?

Maybe the pivot bosses could be added in two halves soldered on after the main fabrication, then drilled and reamed?

I would try a card mock-up first . . . having never actually made anything so complex :noidea:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 21, 2018, 01:24:08 PM
Just thinking how I might attempt those track supports  :thinking:

Could you cut the triangular webs out of one piece of flat plate (maybe overscale, say 1/8" for more strength), then bend up the inner and outer flanges from 3/4" x 1/16" strip. Might be easier to hold it all together for brazing with only three separate pieces.

Perhaps the axle tube could have a 1/8" slot milled along the top to take the lower edge of the web?

Maybe the pivot bosses could be added in two halves soldered on after the main fabrication, then drilled and reamed?

I would try a card mock-up first . . . having never actually made anything so complex :noidea:
Thats possible, I think. Thicker center web would be stronger too. Bending that center flange would be the trickiest.  Hmmm....


 :thinking:




Thanks for the idea.   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Swarf Maker on May 21, 2018, 01:42:49 PM
I see this as starting with a section of flat material 3/4" thick. Mill all the channels out from both sides with a bull nose cutter (small radius corners). Drill for the outside diameter of the two cylindrical parts at the corners. Make these holes smaller so that collars can be fitted either side and be brazed in later. These holes can be used to locate in a jig while the triangular hole and outer profile are cut. Jig can be tilted to profile the cross section taper. The main bearing housing is again a seperate item which can be located for brazing if the triangular brace has a corresponding rebate milled into it. Might be a few fiddly bits but I think that is where I would start from although I would probably see the error of my thinking if the job were in front of me! An absolute cracking job you are making of this so all respect to you.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 21, 2018, 02:15:03 PM
I see this as starting with a section of flat material 3/4" thick. Mill all the channels out from both sides with a bull nose cutter (small radius corners). Drill for the outside diameter of the two cylindrical parts at the corners. Make these holes smaller so that collars can be fitted either side and be brazed in later. These holes can be used to locate in a jig while the triangular hole and outer profile are cut. Jig can be tilted to profile the cross section taper. The main bearing housing is again a seperate item which can be located for brazing if the triangular brace has a corresponding rebate milled into it. Might be a few fiddly bits but I think that is where I would start from although I would probably see the error of my thinking if the job were in front of me! An absolute cracking job you are making of this so all respect to you.
Thats where I started, but it would have to start with a very large block, trying to save some money on it. Best bets so far appear to be a piece per arm plus the tube, or the many piece like the I beam builds. These parts are quite large, probably biggest of the model.
I have found some reasonable prices on thick brass on ebay, am leaning towards that approach, a soldered up triangle then adding the bottom tube.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Swarf Maker on May 21, 2018, 06:24:11 PM
As an ace fabricator I am sure that you will come up with a good solution! When faced with the need for chunky bits of metal I have often found that it is cheaper to buy a length of round stock that will encompass the finished item, rather than buying flat stock.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 21, 2018, 07:19:50 PM
As an ace fabricator I am sure that you will come up with a good solution! When faced with the need for chunky bits of metal I have often found that it is cheaper to buy a length of round stock that will encompass the finished item, rather than buying flat stock.
Thanks!  I have done that a number of times, this one would need about a 3 1/2 or 4 inch bar, so I have ordered some 3/4 square bar and some 1/2 inch square, should do the trick.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 22, 2018, 12:25:14 AM
Getting caught up on posting from the last couple of days - I made up the U-shaped pieces that go on the front corners of the frame, which both reinforce the corners and give it some protection from getting hit by the bucket and/or rocks. On the real machine, the front sides of these are all scored up from the bucket getting too close when digging to the sides. They were made from 3 pieces of flat bar, temporarily screwed together and silver soldered. Here is one side attached, the other one ready to go on:(https://s5.postimg.cc/d4dfx8a5j/IMG_2846.jpg)
On the lower horizontal plate of those braces will be a support that holds a rod that angles back to the ends of the track supports that I have been talking about recently. Made those from a length of rectangular bar, first milled a slot in either end of the bar:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/sd3daytjb/IMG_2847.jpg)
then drilled the cross holes

(https://s5.postimg.cc/4yvdz26h3/IMG_2848.jpg)
and then cut them apart and rounded the ends:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/spurh6edz/IMG_2849.jpg)
They still need to be soldered to a base plate to bolt them to the front corners with. At the back of the track support is another of the angle rods - for whatever reason they shaped these differently. I was about to mill them out of some flat bar, then Swarf Maker's comment about milling out of round bar reminded me (thanks!) that I have lots of round bar, and they would fit in a length of 5/8" bar. Also, using the collet block makes it easy to rotate them 90 degrees at a time to shape each side. So, started by milling in the outer dimensions:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dh4u3dpuf/IMG_2850.jpg)
then shaping the block at the end that will take the rod:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kx43p7nuf/IMG_2851.jpg)
then milling in the 'legs' of the piece:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/spurh5r8n/IMG_2853.jpg)
drilled the hole for the support bar
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5oe6bezav/IMG_2854.jpg)
and tapered the two side legs:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/sd3db0j9j/IMG_2855.jpg)
Here are the rear supports after cutting them off to length - they also need to be soldered to a base plate still, and get the tops rounded off around the hole.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/flp74ih7b/IMG_2857.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on May 22, 2018, 03:42:15 AM
Pretty slick Chris  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 23, 2018, 10:25:51 PM
Pretty slick Chris  :ThumbsUp:
Thanks Craig!
Been off splitting time between outdoor fun and working on a new single-propellor gimbal mount for the sea turtle so I can ditch the belt drive, which broke out at the pond. Also, the brass bar for the front track supports arrived today, so work on the shovel will continue soon...
Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 23, 2018, 11:45:02 PM
Back from a long trip to visit family.

I see nothing has changed here.  :disappointed:

Still the same old fantastic work and progress that defies the speed of light.  ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: mklotz on May 24, 2018, 12:02:51 AM
Back from a long trip to visit family.

I see nothing has changed here.

Still the same old fantastic work and progress that defies the speed of light.

I think that if we could clone Chris a few hundred times, we could have a man on Mars tomorrow afternoon.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 24, 2018, 12:18:08 AM
Back from a long trip to visit family.

I see nothing has changed here.

Still the same old fantastic work and progress that defies the speed of light.

I think that if we could clone Chris a few hundred times, we could have a man on Mars tomorrow afternoon.
At least we'd have a few hundred NASA/government beurocrats with big boot prints on their butts!   :ROFL:
Besides, Zee will send Ninja Attack Gnomes after me if I don't build a Stanley Steamer engine next!
Not sure if my design for a butane fired boiler and big steam engine will really work in space anyway...
Just finished bolting the new single-prop gimbal mount to the sea turtle's butt  :hellno: (such language when I started drilling, though he talks very slow so it is funnier than hell), need to redo the motor mount in the water tight compartment to drive a single shaft out the center rather than the two belt-drive ones I started with. Then back on the shovel...
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on May 25, 2018, 07:57:37 PM
Don't you just hate it when old projects get in the way of new projects?  :'(
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 25, 2018, 08:24:38 PM
Don't you just hate it when old projects get in the way of new projects?  :'(


Just means more to make!


Got the turtle sub reassembled, getting back to the shovel now.   :)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 25, 2018, 09:55:20 PM
Back working on the shovel again, next part is the base plates for the brace rods from the frames to the track supports - last time I had made the standards for those, so I cut, trimmed, drilled some thin steel for the base plates. The ones on the right of the photo were thick enough in the center to drill/tap for some 1-72 screws to hold them for silver soldering. The ones on the left are too thin, but the head of a 2-56 screw just fit between the legs of the U, so that should do to keep them in line for soldering. They all go at a 45 degree angle to the bases, and there is a left and right of each one. The U-shaped ones go at the front corners of the frame, the others back behind the tracks. I don't know why they made them different shapes since they hold the same kind of rod at the same angle and distance out.(https://s5.postimg.cc/4ae9rpyon/IMG_2858.jpg)So, will get them soldered up and cut apart later, then start making up the parts for the track supports (they are sitting on top of the 3/4" bar the track supports will be made from).
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 26, 2018, 01:18:07 AM
Here are the parts soldered up, cut apart, and the front ones installed. Still need to drill the holes into the bottom of the I-beams for the rear ones, need to take the front turntable off to do that.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4jcco3uhj/IMG_2859.jpg)
Next parts will be the track supports, and the brackets to hold them to the frames.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 26, 2018, 11:26:27 PM
Got a bunch done on the track supports this afternoon. After working out the angles between the three sides of the triangle (twice - first time had a bit of a brain fart) I made up a set of wooden angle blocks for the different angles, so I could set the bars in the vise at the proper angles. Set my protractor (nice ebay find a while back, works great but the new prices are crazy) to the angles, and used that on top of the mill vise to set some plywood blocks (sawn to have two parallel faces).(https://s5.postimg.cc/dqhm86axz/IMG_2860.jpg)
Then milled off the top surface
(https://s5.postimg.cc/w6235khcn/IMG_2861.jpg)
and the end face
(https://s5.postimg.cc/a6voidnnr/IMG_2862.jpg)
to make a pair of right triangle blocks at each of the angles. With the appropriate block under the bars, milled off the ends to the mating angles:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3t6lf55x3/IMG_2868.jpg)
Here are the blocks with the inital cuts made:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8f2pnhz5z/IMG_2869.jpg)
Since the sides of rolled bars are not always all that flat, and to give a notch for the angled bar to rest against, milled a slight recess on the mating surfaces of the long bar:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7014yqvhz/IMG_2871.jpg)
and an angled notch on the end of the mid bar, to take the small bar:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/eg0ekk6cn/IMG_2872.jpg)
After some careful measuring and some trimming the end of the small bars, got a very good fit of all three:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9u4ac7d3r/IMG_2874.jpg)
I need to make one more small rectangular block, to form the portion where the angle rod braces come in above the bottom tube, and drill some holes for temporary screws to hold everything in place for silver soldering. Also need to cut the round bar for the bottom axle tubes - I think those will be notched and pinned in place under these triangles.
So you can see where this is all going again, here is what the whole assembly will look like:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/j1wisypbr/IMG_1539.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 27, 2018, 01:13:04 AM
Got a bunch done ...

 :lolb: :lolb: :lolb:

What you think is a lot done...is to some of us...a life's work.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 27, 2018, 01:25:49 AM
Got a bunch done ...

 :lolb: :lolb: :lolb:

What you think is a lot done...is to some of us...a life's work.
Just another day in the alternate universe...   :Lol:


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 27, 2018, 04:11:15 PM
Here are the parts screwed together and ready for soldering, including the extra small bit needed for the angle brace connections.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/g9qqos46v/IMG_2877.jpg)

Got the joints on the track supports silver soldered before lunch, they are in the pickle solution now getting cleaned up again. I'll check to see if the solder made it all the way through the joints, if not will do another pass from the other side for good measure, they are wide joints. I did use the whack-with-a-punch method to raise slight bumps to leave room for the solder to wick through, and could see the solder disapear into the joints, so it went part way in at least.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 27, 2018, 06:24:23 PM
Yup, after cleaning found one joint on each, at the slated end of the narrow bar, which was not well flowed into. Resoldered that and repickling now...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Gas_mantle on May 27, 2018, 07:14:37 PM
Looking great Chris  :ThumbsUp:

This project must be costing a fortune in raw materials and the labour costs  :)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 27, 2018, 08:10:08 PM
Looking great Chris  :ThumbsUp:

This project must be costing a fortune in raw materials and the labour costs  :)
The elves work for peanuts. And popcorn...   :Lol:


The materials are more than covered from the income from the Lombard article in the magazine, so its really quite cheap!   8)


The brass foe the track supports was only about $30 or so, off ebay. The steel bar and plate has been the expensive part, paying retail on all that. As long as I don't track my labor time, its not bad!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on May 27, 2018, 09:58:48 PM
Looks promising . . . Can't wait to see the machining on those track supports  :popcorn:

And you seem to have sorted out the picture/text layout as well in the last few posts  :ThumbsUp:

Mike.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 27, 2018, 10:22:35 PM
Looking great Chris  :ThumbsUp:

This project must be costing a fortune in raw materials and the labour costs  :)
The elves work for peanuts. And popcorn...   :Lol:
...
As long as I don't track my labor time, its not bad!

The elves are doing the work. So what labor are you talking about?  :thinking:

Oh...right. You have to make the cookies.   ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 27, 2018, 10:32:34 PM
Looking great Chris  :ThumbsUp:

This project must be costing a fortune in raw materials and the labour costs  :)
The elves work for peanuts. And popcorn...   :Lol:
...
As long as I don't track my labor time, its not bad!

The elves are doing the work. So what labor are you talking about?  :thinking:

Oh...right. You have to make the cookies.   ;D


And eat most of the cookies. Thats a tough job, but I volunteered for it!   ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 28, 2018, 12:02:52 AM
Looks promising . . . Can't wait to see the machining on those track supports  :popcorn:

And you seem to have sorted out the picture/text layout as well in the last few posts  :ThumbsUp:

Mike.
I've been throwing in some extra carriage returns, seems to be working. The site software seems to be handling whitespace a little different than it used to.
Got a start on milling the blanks this afternoon, after resoldering the couple of dry joints in them. Here are the outlines sketched on to help me keep track of which edge is which:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/v7m6mj2x3/IMG_2880.jpg)
Started by clamping them to the rotary table tooling plate, jacked up on some 1/4" bars, to drill the holes for the mounting pins. These holes will be my index points for the rest of the cutting.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ro08wqncn/IMG_2881.jpg)
Then started milling the outlines, beginning with the inner triangle. I used a larger end mill to take out the bulk of the material, which was fine for two of the corners but the third is a smaller radius.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fyw98r1iv/IMG_2882.jpg)
Each edge was done by rotating the table so that the edge was parallel to the mill table, and milling along that axis. Then, switched to a smaller cutter for the final corner. The smaller mill was not long enough to reach quite all the way through the block currently, but it was long enough to reach the finished edge - the support will be tapered later from the end with the round tube back to the edge with the mounting holes - that tapering will be done last so that holding the part stays simpler. The taper is why the one leg of the triangle was made with smaller bar - that leg is less than 1/2" maximum in either direction, while the other two max out at 3/4".

(https://s5.postimg.cc/xoxxtsujb/IMG_2883.jpg)
Then took the outside of the narrow bar down to size and rounded the bottom inside corner. The upper corner, to the left in the photo, will be done by moving the hole to the center of the table and rounding it that way. To the left, you can see the second support, waiting for the same treatment - will do that one the same as the first before moving on.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wmnrb9jfr/IMG_2884.jpg)
After the second support is done to this stage, I will mill in the tenon that the tube will attach to (it will have a mortise slot and be cross pinned in place), then will start milling in the center grooves on each leg to form the I-beam shapes.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 28, 2018, 08:54:58 PM
Got the other support up to the same stage, and got the top end rounded off by centering the pin hole on the rotary table and going around it with the mill:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ql85el4sn/IMG_2885.jpg)
Next up was to shape in the tenon on the bottom end:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/49acl7l47/IMG_2888.jpg)
and to shape the outer lower end where the angle support rods will connect on.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/o3we7bslz/IMG_2889.jpg)
Here are the two supports so far, one propped up about where it will attach to the frame:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ydyt6k31z/IMG_2890.jpg)
That completes the outline profile, I think next it will be time to slot in the centers of each rail to form the I-beam shape in them. I am leaving the slanted top face a little thick, so there will be room to carve in the 'MARION' lettering that is cast in on the original. Going to do some testing to see if I can form that with the high speed rotary tool and dental burs, or if it will be better to have a friend of mine with a 3D printer make the letters and recess them into the face. If possible, I'd prefer to make them myself, but we'll see...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: wagnmkr on May 28, 2018, 10:44:49 PM
It just keeps getting better!

Tom
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 28, 2018, 11:20:34 PM
It just keeps getting better!

Tom
Thanks! Glad its not getting worse...!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 28, 2018, 11:28:03 PM
It just keeps getting better!

Tom
Thanks! Glad its not getting worse...!
 :cheers:

Indeed, the machining is getting better.
I won't comment on the text.  ;D

All I managed today was to mill a 1/16 x 1/8 slot in a bit of 1/8 rod. Said bit of rod is in the trash can.  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 28, 2018, 11:28:49 PM
Checked the hole spacing, and it turned out that with one of the mount holes in the center of the rotary table tooling plate, with a stepped washer to keep it centered, the other mount hole was close enough to one of the end ones in the next row over to be locked in place with another screw, so that will work out nicely for holding the parts for milling the slots.

Started with a plunge cut down to the depth of the slot, locked the column, then used the rotary table to cut the arc at the edge of the boss around the mount hole. Then lined up the rotary table so the edge of the part was lined up with the mill table axis, and made a series of passes to open up the slot on one leg:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/lws5juibb/IMG_2891.jpg)
Turned the table to line up the second leg, and made a few passes there too:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fvugms3ev/IMG_2892.jpg)
Now, time to repeat that sequence on the other side, and on the second track support. After that will swap the other mount hole to the center and make its boss and do the third leg on all four sides, and make the slots at the corner without a mount hole. That will wait for tomorrow, this is a good spot to stop before getting tired and making a stupid mistake (a big lesson learned, mostly, sometimes forgotten, years ago - know when to walk away from the shop and reset the brain). 

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 28, 2018, 11:29:57 PM
It just keeps getting better!

Tom
Thanks! Glad its not getting worse...!
 :cheers:

Indeed, the machining is getting better.
I won't comment on the text.  ;D

All I managed today was to mill a 1/16 x 1/8 slot in a bit of 1/8 rod. Said bit of rod is in the trash can.  :facepalm:
Just pretend you were intending to make a fresh teaspoon of swarf - then it was a success!
 :wallbang:

Practize makz prefect, or something like that...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 29, 2018, 09:49:16 PM
More nibbling away at the track supports, got the rest of the top sections done, and switched the other mount hole to the center of the table to do the third leg:

(https://s5.postimg.cc/t0e9njljb/IMG_2893.jpg)
and the bottom section, where the support rods come in from the side of the frame:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ho1o5rkk7/IMG_2895.jpg)
Both sides of one part are done, need to finish up the second part, and it will be time to make the axle tube that goes on the bottom of these supports.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 31, 2018, 01:46:52 AM
The other track support is done to same stage as the first, and laid out the stock for the bottom tubes. Happened to have some bar stock just the right diameter (fun when that happens), and got the outside rings turned in on the first one, as well as boring the 3/4" hole down the center. Will get the other one turned, then start milling the flat on the side to take the support bracket. When boring the hole, I drilled a 3/8" starter hole, then bored it back about halfway down the length before doing the rest, which allowed the chips to clear much better than if I bored all the way down in one go - went much faster overall than having to stop and clear chips a number of times on the narrow hole.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/6l0w2rp93/IMG_2896.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 01, 2018, 03:37:11 AM
Going to be a short break on the build, some family medical things to handle (nothing serious) and a rc sub run this weekend to prep for. Back on it in a couple days...


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gbritnell on June 01, 2018, 02:51:19 PM
Hurry and get back Chris. I need my fix every day or so.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 01, 2018, 05:20:03 PM
Hurry and get back Chris. I need my fix every day or so.
gbritnell
Zee was supposed to have started that popcorn engine by now and handle fill-in duties for me, but, well...   :facepalm:
 :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on June 01, 2018, 06:50:31 PM
Waiting on tools, tooling, etc. ; you’ve heard it before. But, I’m betting there’s some gardening holding part of it up, but, in Zee’s behalf, he just retired, and maybe he just ain’t in a hurry for much of anything anymore  :old: :shrug:

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on June 01, 2018, 07:01:45 PM
Zee was supposed to have started that popcorn engine by now and handle fill-in duties for me, but, well...   :facepalm:
 :Lol:

but, well...the cookies never arrived. You did send them didn't you? I'm thinking your thieving elves got them.

Waiting on tools, tooling, etc. ; you’ve heard it before. But, I’m betting there’s some gardening holding part of it up, but, in Zee’s behalf, he just retired, and maybe he just ain’t in a hurry for much of anything anymore  :old: :shrug:

Gardening, swimming, fixing, lunches with friends, and more than a bit of laziness.
Going through a down period. I'll get back into it.

I live on a roller coaster. Right now living a bit of  :toilet_claw: but will get back to  :whoohoo:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 01, 2018, 07:16:34 PM
Zee was supposed to have started that popcorn engine by now and handle fill-in duties for me, but, well...   :facepalm:
 :Lol:

but, well...the cookies never arrived. You did send them didn't you? I'm thinking your thieving elves got them.

Waiting on tools, tooling, etc. ; you’ve heard it before. But, I’m betting there’s some gardening holding part of it up, but, in Zee’s behalf, he just retired, and maybe he just ain’t in a hurry for much of anything anymore  :old: :shrug:

Gardening, swimming, fixing, lunches with friends, and more than a bit of laziness.
Going through a down period. I'll get back into it.

I live on a roller coaster. Right now living a bit of  :toilet_claw: but will get back to  :whoohoo:
The cookies never arrived since you never PM'd me your address! The elves SAID they got it from the visits they paid you, but I bet that goes to their own post office box...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on June 01, 2018, 07:45:24 PM
Chris, I really hate to say this, but darned if he doesn’t sound like he’s missing (that four letter word”). Just saying  :lolb: :lolb:

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 01, 2018, 07:56:59 PM
Chris, I really hate to say this, but darned if he doesn’t sound like he’s missing (that four letter word”). Just saying  :lolb: :lolb:

Cletus


Maybe we can find him an all day marketing meeting to go to, just for old times sake...   :paranoia:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on June 01, 2018, 09:38:21 PM
Chris, I really hate to say this, but darned if he doesn’t sound like he’s missing (that four letter word”). Just saying  :lolb: :lolb:
Maybe we can find him an all day marketing meeting to go to, just for old times sake...   :paranoia:

Just had lunch with a colleague from work. We were working on the same project when I left.
I had to endure listening to all the same issues/problems/crap that was 'that four letter word'.

You guys are getting just as bad.  :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 01, 2018, 10:18:21 PM
Chris, I really hate to say this, but darned if he doesn’t sound like he’s missing (that four letter word”). Just saying  :lolb: :lolb:
Maybe we can find him an all day marketing meeting to go to, just for old times sake...   :paranoia:

Just had lunch with a colleague from work. We were working on the same project when I left.
I had to endure listening to all the same issues/problems/crap that was 'that four letter word'.

You guys are getting just as bad.  :lolb:
It gets better when your other cow-orkers (as Dilbert would spell it) retire too! Then you all are talking about hobbies, trips, and all the poor suckers left back in 'that place'.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jo on June 02, 2018, 06:56:48 AM
Meanies, meanies  :rant: have a thought for those of us who are looking forward to months and even YEARs of that four letter word  :facepalm: Now you have reminded me I have another long dreary pointless meeting to attend and I had so enjoyed having this week as holiday, the end is nigh (Monday) :toilet_claw:


Us youngsters have to keep telling ourselves that we go to that place to pay for all those important things in life: house, car, model engine casting sets.  :noidea:


Jo
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 02, 2018, 12:59:02 PM
Meanies, meanies  :rant: have a thought for those of us who are looking forward to months and even YEARs of that four letter word  :facepalm: Now you have reminded me I have another long dreary pointless meeting to attend and I had so enjoyed having this week as holiday, the end is nigh (Monday) :toilet_claw:


Us youngsters have to keep telling ourselves that we go to that place to pay for all those important things in life: house, car, model engine casting sets.  :noidea:


Jo
Condolences on having to go there!  :-[   
I had the bad luck of large company going bust but good luck of having 30 years on surviving pension fund, and escaped at age 51, only meetings now are the fun ones with the local club.  :)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on June 02, 2018, 02:58:28 PM
I miss work. In many ways, my work is what defined me for 50 years. Once I no longer have the work on a regular basis, I am a bit lost. I wouldn't want to go back to work full time, but I like to have 2 or 3 days design work a week. That really isn't that easy to organize. I fill in a bit by designing machines to build myself, but that's kind of "weak" after what I've done all my life.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 03, 2018, 08:36:31 PM
We had our pond run today, and the other work I had to do on the Lombard article is now done, so back on the Marion build!
I got the second tube for the track support turned just like the first, and then it was time to mill the flat for the joint to the upper support. Simple milling, took it down till the flat was 3/4" wide.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mpfhqvdav/IMG_2897.jpg)
Then milled up some strips of bar stock for the intermediate rectangle, where the tubes will join to the upper brackets. I could have milled this section in to the upper brackets, but I think it will be easier this way - these plates will be silver soldered to the tubes, and have the mortise milled into them, and the upper bracket attached by some taper pins running sideways through the plates with some loctite. That way, no need to re-heat the brackets for soldering, and risking something shifting in the existing joints, now that the walls on them are thin and they would heat up faster than the thicker tube. If I had attached the tubes earlier, then lineup to the brackets would have been harder, as would holding things for milling.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/w9z4dracn/IMG_2898.jpg)
With the plates held with some small brass screws, got them silver soldered to the tubes, they are cooling off now...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 03, 2018, 08:59:03 PM
Side note - at the pond run today, one of the guys had a camera in the bow of his sub, got a couple of quick fly-bys of my sea turtle sub, here are a couple of screen captures from that video.  This was the first full run of the turtle at the outdoor pond, got some dogs confused, and some fishermen too!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8a265apiv/vlcsnap-2018-06-03-15h51m51s383.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kbxjzg6h3/vlcsnap-2018-06-03-15h52m36s639.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 04, 2018, 01:02:49 AM
While letting the silver soldered tube assemblies cool and pickle, got the upper brackets tapered. Easiest way to hold them and adjust the cut until it met the layout lines seemed to be to use the rotary table mounted on the tilting table, to get the right compound angles. It worked out to be 3 degrees of tilt, and 30 degrees of rotation from the axis through the mounting holes. Most of the work was done with the parts held on the table using the mounting holes again:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xzhed1x13/IMG_2899.jpg)
Then to do the final section at the upper mounting hole, put a clamp down at the bottom and removed the one screw:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mzw71gebr/IMG_2900.jpg)
The second side used the same setup, just with the part flipped over and the table rotated 30 degrees in the opposite direction. Since the one mounting hole had the surface around it milled away, I put a bit of shim stock there to support it - the lower end was still full width, so that let it sit in the same orientation on the table.
Once the tube sections were cleaned up, milled the mortises in the top surfaces of them to match the tenons on the upper parts.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ie02t40if/IMG_2901.jpg)
Here are the parts test fit together, ready to have the taper pin holes drilled and reamed to hold the tubes onto the upper sections:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6c4oyyyzr/IMG_2904.jpg)
Right now, they look like cylinders for a wacky beam engine!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 04, 2018, 05:13:16 PM
Today I drilled for the taper pins to hold the lower tube to the upper bracket, and in the same setup ran in the taper reamer to match the pins (number 4/0 x 1").

(https://s5.postimg.cc/ygq1fvi5j/IMG_2905.jpg)
Before assembling the tubes on, also drilled for the bolts that will hold the angle brace rods at the lower ends:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/hg7577kjr/IMG_2906.jpg)
Next came some fiddly artistry - carving in the raised 'MARION' letters down the angled sides of the supports. There is also a raised centerline along it. First drew in the letters:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5r35j990n/IMG_2907.jpg)
Then took them to my Turbocarver unit, which is a air-powered high speed (400,000+ RPM) rotary tool that takes dental bits. Basically its a much cheaper home unit like the one your dentist uses, even sounds like it, which brings back painful memories. It runs off a small compressor with a foot pedal to turn it on and off - not a lot of power, with those small bits it is no good for taking an inch off the end of a bar, but it is great for little carving projects. Used a very small carbide bit to outline the letters, then a football shaped diamond coated bit to smooth the background.  If this had not worked out very well, I was going to have a friend of mine 3D print the letters on a thin plate that I could mill a recess for, and JB Weld them in place.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mrm1rxec7/IMG_2909.jpg)
Then, mounted the parts in the mill to take down the rest of the background of the surface, leaving the letters and the center rib sticking up:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fcwpyysaf/IMG_2910.jpg)
Here is the finished support, propped up against the frame about where it will go:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/a07vlep4n/IMG_2912.jpg)
Next step is to make the top brackets that hold the top of the support to the A-frame crossbar, then the links that hold the bottom to the crossbar under the frames.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: mklotz on June 04, 2018, 05:19:19 PM
Wow!  Just wow!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 04, 2018, 05:25:05 PM
Wow!  Just wow!
Thanks Marv! Its wild, you look like Einstein when you say that!  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on June 04, 2018, 05:49:42 PM
I echo what Marv said. Wow! Just wow!

That had to be nerve wracking. One mistake and ruination.

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on June 04, 2018, 06:10:49 PM
That is mighty impressive, Chris!
That's some real carving work you did there.  :praise2:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on June 04, 2018, 06:45:20 PM
Here’s that word again: There’s very few folks like you and bunch of folks like us  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:

Cletus

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dave Otto on June 04, 2018, 06:54:00 PM
Very nice Chris! :ThumbsUp:

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 04, 2018, 07:31:01 PM
I echo what Marv said. Wow! Just wow!

That had to be nerve wracking. One mistake and ruination.

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
All was done with the magnifying headset on, lots of repositioning the hands so I could move it like a pencil drawing a vertical line back towards me. The cutter is less than a mm wide so a mistake wouldn't be very big. At the high speeds this runs at, it does not try to walk like a slower cutter, which helps. At worst, I could have patched with JB or milled it flat and inserted a 3d printed name, but am very pleased how it came out.
 :cartwheel:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 04, 2018, 07:32:11 PM
Here’s that word again: There’s very few folks like you and bunch of folks like us  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:

Cletus
Folks is folks, some just practice different skills!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on June 04, 2018, 08:34:11 PM
Awesome!!  as my daughter might say  :praise2:

There's some serious talent among those elves . . .  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: fumopuc on June 04, 2018, 08:39:46 PM
Hi Chris, great job.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on June 04, 2018, 09:16:15 PM
Hi Chris ,More lovely work/play there !! found this article about a Ruston Proctor scooper from 1881 !! It took quite a lot of extra men to work it though and 2 horses !!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 04, 2018, 09:20:21 PM
Neat article Willy, amazing how much they changed in a couple decades!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on June 05, 2018, 02:19:30 AM
DAM !!

 :popcorn: consumption just went up another couple of notches!

Very very nice W..K!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 05, 2018, 02:22:09 AM
DAM !!

 :popcorn: consumption just went up another couple of notches!

Very very nice W..K!

Cheers Kerrin
:cheers:


Beats -OR- any day!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 05, 2018, 05:03:10 PM
Moving on to the upper brackets that hold the top of the track supports to the ends of the A-frame crossbeam. Started with some larger brass block, rough sawed out the two parts (overlapped in length of bar to save material), then milled the outline shape and drilled the mounting pin holes. The outlines of one of the parts has a slightly different depth to the lower end, since the one I'beam it connects to has a slightly different depth to the center web (must have shifted slightly in the clamps when soldering that end).

(https://s5.postimg.cc/3snrcqy07/IMG_2913.jpg)
The sides were milled in to leave the little 'ears' where the lower bolts will go through
(https://s5.postimg.cc/57pc1heiv/IMG_2915.jpg)
and the sides were recessed where the angled support is
(https://s5.postimg.cc/d0fztgcs7/IMG_2917.jpg)
The center was milled out to leave the slot for the track support
(https://s5.postimg.cc/h9kpvm0lz/IMG_2918.jpg)
And the bottom was taken back to leave the final shape of the bottom plate, with the stepped end to reach into the center web of the I beam.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/qu4ciikt3/IMG_2919.jpg)
Here are the brackets so far, test fit with the track supports:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/v392kp3hz/IMG_2920.jpg)
A shot of the part so far, held up to where it will attach. Still need to drill the holes for the corner bolts, and round in the corners and top end:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6mqwq7v1j/IMG_2921.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 05, 2018, 06:17:41 PM
Drilled the mount holes and rounded the ends, here the first bracket is in place. Still need to drill the mount hole into the frame web at the bottom, but this gives a good look at how it all fits together. Next up are the links from the bottom of the track support to the lower cross beam under the frames.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ebscfkq13/IMG_2923.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Admiral_dk on June 05, 2018, 10:25:14 PM
I can't really say if I'm very surprised or not about how much work and planning goes into some of the parts you have made so far, but with so much attention to details it is a lot of work (ups that  :censored: word again - sorry Jo) - mighty impressive as usual from you Chris  :praise2:

Still following  :popcorn: from the Peanut gallery  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 05, 2018, 11:55:58 PM
I can't really say if I'm very surprised or not about how much work and planning goes into some of the parts you have made so far, but with so much attention to details it is a lot of work (ups that  :censored: word again - sorry Jo) - mighty impressive as usual from you Chris  :praise2:

Still following  :popcorn: from the Peanut gallery  :cheers:
Oboy, Jo is gonna launch a big casting sprue your way for saying 'work' ... uh oh, now I said it...


 :Lol:


It's made a big difference in paying attention to details to have a real machine to build from rather than just a generalized pattern of an engine type.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on June 06, 2018, 05:56:21 AM
It just continues to be amazing, Chris!  :popcorn:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jo on June 06, 2018, 08:55:55 AM
Quote
(ups that  :censored: word again - sorry Jo)
Oboy, Jo is gonna launch a big casting sprue your way for saying 'work' ... uh oh, now I said it...

 :Lol:

You boys just like to rub it in  :ShakeHead: One of these days, months no  .. no, its years  :facepalm: I too will be old enough to get my state pension. In the mean time I have best part of twenty years to keep :stickpoke: my boss with the hope that he decides enough is enough and forces me to take early retirement .. In the meantime back to :censored:

Jo
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on June 06, 2018, 09:52:59 AM
Jo,
 You want to be careful  :stickpoke: the boss, he may up & leave & you as the BOSS!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jo on June 06, 2018, 11:07:49 AM
You want to be careful  :stickpoke: the boss, he may up & leave & you as the BOSS!

No worries there he practises diplomacy whereas I tell it as it as I see it which is the last thing they want higher management hearing  :lolb:

Jo
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 06, 2018, 07:41:49 PM
Got started on the lower links that connect the bottom of the track supports to the lower crossbeam on the main frame. Started with some chunks of 3/8" steel bar, drilled the mount pin holes and then milled a notch in the top for where they fit under the frame rails:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3v31lpmiv/IMG_2924.jpg)
Then used the rotary table to round the ends - this picture did not come out well, hard to see the end being rounded - it is bolted down to the center hole in the tooling plate so it would pivot around the mount hole.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/71xl5bz93/IMG_2925.jpg)
Then moved the parts out to the side of the rotary table to form the lower arc:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/t13zsj8dj/IMG_2926.jpg)
One link down, 3 to go...
Also, today my order from Shapeways arrived - had been wanting to try this for a while to see how it comes out. I sent in a 3D file for the dipper bucket assembly, looking at prices, wound up scaling it down 25% to get the cost down. To do that, I had to thicken up some of the bars in the latch mechanism on the door and take back some of the tapers on the teeth to meet their minimum thickness requirements. But, came out looking pretty good. Here it is with the model bucket for size comparison:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8tqk095rb/IMG_2927.jpg)
The parts are all one piece, nothing moves on it. Here is a bottom view:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9w0qisguv/IMG_2928.jpg)
Doesn't show in the photo, but there is a little stair stepping in the shallow angles of the hinges, overal it is a matte finish, not bad (this is their general black plastic).

Does make a good pencil holder, though it is crying out for a batch of M&M's...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/uswynh213/IMG_2930.jpg)
Though the elves seem to think it is their new elevator...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4klty3a7r/IMG_2929.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on June 06, 2018, 08:42:21 PM
That's a shop elf??

Apparently I've had a couple of the lazy good-for-nothing so-and-so's living in a cardboard box on the shelf by my computer desk for a couple of years.  How do you get them off their lazy duffs and put them to work?  Don't tell me it's the mint chocolate chip cookies, I ain't buying it - they've had WAY too many chances.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 06, 2018, 09:08:25 PM
That's a shop elf??

Apparently I've had a couple of the lazy good-for-nothing so-and-so's living in a cardboard box on the shelf by my computer desk for a couple of years.  How do you get them off their lazy duffs and put them to work?  Don't tell me it's the mint chocolate chip cookies, I ain't buying it - they've had WAY too many chances.

Don


Sounds like yours are Gnomus Shopus, the evil version of the helpful Shop Elf species.


And yes, mint chocolate chip cookies are the recommended treatment. Must be fresh and home made, none of that Keebler crap.


I do offer a Shop Gnome to Shop Elf rehabilitation program, fee is one truckload of brass bar stock per gnome!   :Jester:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 07, 2018, 12:42:40 AM
All four of the lower links are made now, and I turned up the 6 pins that hold the lower and upper connections in place. Here is a photo of the right side track support test fit in place, all looks good so I'll go ahead and cross drill the pins for the cotters.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/pcet0gznb/IMG_2932.jpg)
Next I think it will be time to take the front boom assembly off so I can drill the mount holes for the bottom screws in the upper brackets, plust the holes underneath for the angle support rods. While I'm at it will drill the holes for the rear track support member, and the control linkage blocks. As time goes on and more parts get added, it will get more difficult to turn the frame over, so I want to do as much of that work as possible now. Or, make the rotisserie unit that I saw on Firebird's Conway thread... Hmmm...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on June 07, 2018, 03:31:35 PM
Wow just wow Chris! Dog you have outdone yourself, I am just awwwed at all the craving details you do. Awesome work as always Dog your the man and have a god given talent.  :praise2:

 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 07, 2018, 09:25:38 PM
Wow just wow Chris! Dog you have outdone yourself, I am just awwwed at all the craving details you do. Awesome work as always Dog your the man and have a god given talent.  :praise2:

 :drinking-41:
Don
Thanks much, Don!  Having a ball doing it!   :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on June 07, 2018, 09:32:27 PM
I do offer a Shop Gnome to Shop Elf rehabilitation program, fee is one truckload of brass bar stock per gnome!   :Jester:

Any weight limits on that truck?  If I can find my kids old Hot Wheels/Matchbox trucks I could probably send you as many as 3 or 4 truckloads, maybe more - including the trucks.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 07, 2018, 09:55:36 PM
I do offer a Shop Gnome to Shop Elf rehabilitation program, fee is one truckload of brass bar stock per gnome!   :Jester:

Any weight limits on that truck?  If I can find my kids old Hot Wheels/Matchbox trucks I could probably send you as many as 3 or 4 truckloads, maybe more - including the trucks.

Don


Hmmm... Gotta add more fine print...   :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 08, 2018, 03:33:43 AM
This afternoon I started making the diagonal brace rods from the brackets at the front corners of the frame to the outer end of the track supports. Realized that I had made the front and rear brackets at a 45 degree angle, but the frint ones should have been at 30 degrees.


 :facepalm:


So, tomorrow need to desolder and resolder the front ones at 30. Whoops! Fortunately easily fixed...


 :-[
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on June 08, 2018, 04:46:37 AM
To many snooozzes on the front porch........sounds like the shop elves have been playing while you were dreaming............

She’s coming on nicely Chris.


Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on June 08, 2018, 06:23:34 AM
Your ratio of steps forward vs. steps back is very impressive. Such simple little problems are easily fixed...

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 08, 2018, 12:56:58 PM
To many snooozzes on the front porch........sounds like the shop elves have been playing while you were dreaming............

She’s coming on nicely Chris.


Cheers Kerrin


It would explain why they were snickering every time I got near those brackets!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 08, 2018, 12:58:31 PM
Your ratio of steps forward vs. steps back is very impressive. Such simple little problems are easily fixed...

Pete
Just glad I spotted it before painting, cleaning off epoxy paint to resolser could have been a bigger problem!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on June 08, 2018, 05:21:39 PM
At least you didn't make a boo-boo like that on the track supports....Or did you and just not tell us about it? C'mon - fess up.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 08, 2018, 05:43:22 PM
At least you didn't make a boo-boo like that on the track supports....Or did you and just not tell us about it? C'mon - fess up.

Don


Nope, track supports are cirrect!  The plans on the little rod bracket clearly shows 30 for the front pair, 45 for the rear pair, I just forgot and made all 4 the same angle.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 08, 2018, 10:11:57 PM
This morning got the front rod brackets resoldered, and also made up the brace rods. They are threaded at one end for adjusting nuts that hold the rods to the brackets, and at the other end they have a fitting to let them be bolted to the track supports. The fittings started as some flat steel stock, turned round and drilled for the rod at the end:

(https://s5.postimg.cc/jbhkmawef/IMG_2933.jpg)

Then drilled for the bolt before cutting each pair of parts apart:

(https://s5.postimg.cc/e02o1li1j/IMG_2934.jpg)

Then got out the rotary table yet again (getting a lot of use on this model) to round the ends of the fittings:

(https://s5.postimg.cc/79m6s6abb/IMG_2935.jpg)

After test fitting to get the length of the rods marked:

(https://s5.postimg.cc/ub2rxx293/IMG_2936.jpg)

the fittings were silver soldered onto the ends of the rods - they are in soaking in pickle acid now. At this point, I have disassembled the booms/turntable from the main frame, so that I can mark out and drill all the holes in the bottoms of the frames for all the brackets, fittings, controls, etc that are to come later. Once I start assembling in engines, gears, all that stuff, it will get complicated to turn the frame over for drilling/tapping, so this is the best time to accomplish all those tasks. Going to go through all the plan sheets and hopefully get all the holes marked out. If I miss any, it will mean trusting a shop elf on a creaper to slide under and drill a hole...
Here is what the bottom of the frames look like at the moment:

(https://s5.postimg.cc/8bwdaq0uf/IMG_2938.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/9qxxzg9nb/IMG_2940.jpg)

I will also take this opportunity to paint the main boom, track supports and brackets. Probably a good time to put a coat on the frames as well, though I am sure they will get scraped up and need touch up later on. So, there will not be a lot to show for a couple days while all that drilling and painting are going on...
On another note: For anyone within driving distance of Buffalo NY, on Sunday the 17th they are holding the once-a-year open house and tour of the giant pumping engines over there at the Col. Francis Ward pumping station. Here is a link:

http://www.buffaloindustrialheritage.com/

and

http://www.buffalohistorygazette.net/2010/09/holly-steam-engines-at-col-francis-g.html

They have five intact 60-foot tall 1100-ton vertical pumping engines. They are NOT running at this point - there is a similar setup in Boston where I believe they can turn them over, at this point the ones in Buffalo are not.

I found out about them last year one week AFTER the tour happened.   :cussing:
So, have been looking forward to this years open house. If you are close enough, looks like a great opportunity to see them up close.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_qsz1-1DRzx8/TI6M9XdoB3I/AAAAAAAAAdA/4gIr7pUAERU/s1600/IMG_0022.JPG)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 09, 2018, 09:57:45 PM
Got the locations for all (I hope) the holes on the bottoms and sides of the frames marked out, and started drilling....
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5t1higd6f/IMG_2945.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/yiodf3ow7/IMG_2947.jpg)
One more set to go, then start tapping, most 2-56, some 1-72...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Johnmcc69 on June 09, 2018, 11:35:09 PM
 :o
Wow. That's a lot of part in a small machine.
 Fantastic work Chris.

 John
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 10, 2018, 01:03:05 AM
:o
Wow. That's a lot of part in a small machine.
 Fantastic work Chris.

 John
Thanks John! Glad to have you riding along. The frame is about twice as long as the mill table, and had to hold the drill bit in the lathe chuck for the side holes or the column maxed out. Glad I didn't make this at 1":1' scale!
Just finished drilling the rest of the holes in the bottom for the rear track mount. Now need to tap a few dozen holes...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on June 10, 2018, 01:31:36 AM
Chris, are you 'hand' tapping or do you have something like a TapMatic automatic reversing head?

I don't think I could do those little holes strictly by hand. I'd need a guide or tapping head.

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 10, 2018, 01:44:25 AM
Chris, are you 'hand' tapping or do you have something like a TapMatic automatic reversing head?

I don't think I could do those little holes strictly by hand. I'd need a guide or tapping head.

Pete
Hi Pete,

I prefer to hand tap, use a t handle tap holder. I like the feel of it, better feedback if the tap gets jammed with chips. For small parts will free hold the part, so it can move with the tap wrench to avois side stress. Some people prefer a rigid holder, for some reason this works for me. Just personal preferenc e, rarely break one, usually when its getting dull anyway.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 10, 2018, 07:01:45 PM
A few sessions of tapping the holes in the bottom and sides of the main frame, then got busy with some paint. The smaller parts were done with the bake-on enamel used on the booms, but the main frame is too large for the oven so I used some automotive engine spray paint on that. Not quite as tough, but easy to touch up at least.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5ei8jsynb/IMG_2949.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 10, 2018, 09:50:37 PM
Got the track supports assembled on, just need to add some cotter pins. I was pleasantly surprised how rigid the assembly got - with the slight play in each hole for the main pins, I had thought there would be some wobble to the final assembly, but it went quite rigid and sturdy. Guess those guys at Marion knew their stuff! 

(https://s5.postimg.cc/5so5wzfsn/IMG_2951.jpg)
With the frame upside down, I think that the next parts will be all the little blocks for the controls and such, as well as the plates that the rear track and steering connect with. Once it is upright and things assembled to the top of the floor, it will never be this easy to access the underside. Also will make the base for the boiler support, which bolts through from underneath. Lots of fiddly bits to come...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on June 10, 2018, 10:03:43 PM
It just looks amazing.  :popcorn:

Oops. Out of popcorn. Slow down a bit will ya?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 10, 2018, 10:12:35 PM
It just looks amazing.  :popcorn:

Oops. Out of popcorn. Slow down a bit will ya?
Reminds me of the old joke about the guy writing a letter back home, says he is writing slow since he knows the recipient doesn't read too fast...
 :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on June 11, 2018, 07:12:48 PM
Lots of fiddly bits to come...

As opposed to the mundane, overly simplistic kind of stuff that you've been doing???

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 11, 2018, 08:11:54 PM
Lots of fiddly bits to come...

As opposed to the mundane, overly simplistic kind of stuff that you've been doing???

Don
Yeah. That boring stuff!!

 :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 11, 2018, 08:52:30 PM
The small bearing blocks for the control rods are made (one more down inside the frames out of sight), they are simple brass blocks, nothing fancy.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/g9wasulyf/IMG_2955.jpg)
Also started making the bolsters that go on the rear track support crossbar. These bolsters are leftovers from the days when the shovel sat on railroad trucks, these took the side-to-side rocking load of the frame on the trucks. So, at this point the bolsters are not going to touch on anything on the tracks, but they left them in place when the track conversion kit was added. So far have one block outlined, about to do the other, then will do the rocker shape to them. After that comes the large bearing that the tracks sit on - not sure if this is the same as the railroad truck bearing or not.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5ab3h8ntj/IMG_2954.jpg)
Also, sitting next to the vise are a pair of small brackets - these will go on the frame near the control pivots, they act as a stop for one of the controls - more on that when they are installed. They were milled out of a bit of bar stock.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on June 11, 2018, 10:29:22 PM
Soon be done now . . . just a few engines to build . . . and the gear trains  . . . and the control gear . . . and the tracks . . . and a few odds and ends . . . oh yes, and the boiler . . .  :LittleDevil:

Still following along  :cheers:

Mike.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 11, 2018, 11:23:21 PM
Soon be done now . . . just a few engines to build . . . and the gear trains  . . . and the control gear . . . and the tracks . . . and a few odds and ends . . . oh yes, and the boiler . . .  :LittleDevil:

Still following along  :cheers:

Mike.
Yup - should be done in a week or eighty, almost there!! 

 :cheers:
Should be about the time Zee gets his Popcorn engine going...   :stickpoke:   (sorry Carl, couldn't resist!)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on June 12, 2018, 12:56:04 AM
Love the bucket full of peanut M&Ms   ;D :ThumbsUp:  :popcorn:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 12, 2018, 01:00:30 AM
Love the bucket full of peanut M&Ms   ;D :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim


Huh?  Where?


Why those little... elves...  They didn't share with me!!


 :Lol:



Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 12, 2018, 03:59:14 PM
Finishing up on the side bolsters from yesterday, the side flanges were milled off at an angle:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wbl1ugznb/IMG_2956.jpg)
And the tops were rounded off on the sanding belt. Here they are on the frame:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/eyarfmjrr/IMG_2974.jpg)
The center pivot bearing plate is a complex bit of shapes, it could be made several ways. Pieced up from thin stock and a center tube, and silver soldered would work but I decided it was a lot of extra work when I could mill it from two pieces. Making it from one would be hard, since it has an undercut around the center pivot. So, started with a bit of rectangular bar, and milled in the vertical gussets, just leaving the base plate.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/639x52sef/IMG_2957.jpg)
The center was left intact, which helped center it up n the 4-jaw on the lathe where a starter hole was drilled for a small boring bar:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/r0659qazr/IMG_2959.jpg)
Then bored out a 1/2" diameter hole all the way through, for the vertical axle.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fntjrya0n/IMG_2960.jpg)
The vertical gussets were then bored out to the diameter of the center bearing block and its top flange - bored the top flange first to have the most material supporting it during the interrupted cut. The flange goes out to the full width of the narrow side gussets.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5dr4sq7af/IMG_2961.jpg)
Here is the part so far:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/yswt1p993/IMG_2962.jpg)
Next step was to make the center bearing - I checked the scrap box and found the end cut off piece from making the tubes for the front track supports - close in size, so that was chucked up to bore out the center to 1/2" as well.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5dr4sqmpz/IMG_2967.jpg)
With the center hole bored, the outside was taken down to match the hole in the gussets on the base:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gdcc4bpzr/IMG_2968.jpg)
Once it fit the gussets, the portion holding it in the chuck was trimmed off, leaving this assembly:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3ly5xuisn/IMG_2969.jpg)
The two parts were 'glued' together with some Loctite retaining compound (the green stuff), then the long gussets were trimmed back at an angle:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/cgz08dfav/IMG_2970.jpg)
And a 4-40 hole drilled/tapped in the side for a grub screw to hold the axle. In the real machine there was no screw there, but I want to be able to pick up the model without the rear tracks falling off, so the axle will have a pair of slots to take retaining screws in the top and bottom bearings, so it can turn but not fall off.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/k9po0d0pj/IMG_2971.jpg)
Here are all the parts assembled on the frame:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5dr4srhl3/IMG_2975.jpg)
Next up will be the front support for the boiler, which comes down through the floor and bolts to the bottom of the frame I beams. Not sure why they did it this way, rather than just a larger cross beam and supporting it all at floor level, but I am doing it the same way they did.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on June 12, 2018, 05:29:20 PM
Are you leaving the bearing Loctited in place or will you silver solder it?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 12, 2018, 06:29:31 PM
Are you leaving the bearing Loctited in place or will you silver solder it?
This one will just be loctited - in use, it is pressed by gravity into the base with its gussets holding on each side. It will only be pulled on when lifting the model, by the weight of the rear tracks, so it should be fine. The loctite should be plenty strong - oh and the steering mechanism will take half the weight of the tracks too.
If it would be silver soldered, would never have put the loctite in since that would interfere with the solder.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 13, 2018, 01:47:55 PM
Last bit of the underpinnings, the lower front boiler support, was bent up from some flat stock and bolted in:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4p4yngg2v/IMG_2976.jpg)
That left some more painting, and reassembling the pieces. Here are a couple of family shots of the parts so far. The wider stance of the track supports in front really stabilize the model well when the booms are swung to the side.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ojr09l307/IMG_2980.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/j8c3ovonb/IMG_2982.jpg)
Next up I think will be the rear track support parts. Another massive casting on the real machine, will be pieced up like the front ones were. Here is what that assembly looks like:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tv5wuf747/Rear_Tracks.png)

The lower axle holds the rear tracks, and the bar out the front acts like a tiller to steer the rear tracks, steering driven through a set of worm and pinion  gears from the small steam engine behind the boiler.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: J.L. on June 13, 2018, 04:12:16 PM
Chris, the compleity of this machine is mind boggling. I'm sure everyone watching has run out of superlatives to describe your work.

My goodness, you have been machining a lot of metal!

Cheers...John
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 13, 2018, 06:12:50 PM
Chris, the compleity of this machine is mind boggling. I'm sure everyone watching has run out of superlatives to describe your work.

My goodness, you have been machining a lot of metal!

Cheers...John
Thanks John, never could have attempted it without access to the shovel near here. Tons of measurements, thousands of photos, plus all the info in the old Marion catalogs.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 13, 2018, 07:46:14 PM
Not much else to show on the model today, have been sorting through the bar stock that I laid in last winter for the track frames, marking cuts for each piece. For those keeping an eye on the amount of brass that I am using, get out the abacus's, adding a few more pounds to the pile! 


Not cutting yet, that comes in a delivery tomorrow, finally broke down and spent the next article payment check on a metal cutting bandsaw, found a nice one on sale at SawBlade.com, have been using their blades in my wood saw amd really like them, hope this is as good. I have been struggling with tendonitis in the right thumb this year, and using a hacksaw or the recip saw for this much at once would be nasty. So, new toy for the shop!!   :pinkelephant:

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on June 14, 2018, 12:40:25 AM
Wow....that is a long distance to transmit slow speed torque with a small diameter shaft  :lolb:

O    to    O..in the image

[edit...these machines appear to have been built as an indestructible design, so the diameter of the shaft just looks out  :zap:]
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 14, 2018, 01:00:10 AM
Wow....that is a long distance to transmit slow speed torque with a small diameter shaft  :lolb:

O    to    O..in the image
I don't think they had much choice. Above the center of the track pivot is the center of the boiler, either side were the reserve water tanks. All the space in front of the boiler is packed with the hoist and slew engines and thier gear trains. Behind the boiler was the only open space. Still, a long way for an inch or two diameter shaft, but then factory line shafts did longer runs. This shaft turns a worm gear to a large gear on the cross shaft, which is a huge acme thread to turn the tiller. Lits and lots of reduction in all that, but they were turning a track set in place with 30 or 40 tons of wieght on them! Very cool stuff.


The steering engine is going to be the trickiest, its just like the swing and crowd engines, with the internal valving for fwd/rev and throttle in one. But, its a third smaller in all dimensions! I think it will be made last, after the other two are running.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 14, 2018, 07:54:57 PM
 :whoohoo: :pinkelephant: New toy for the workshop! :cartwheel:
The new metal-cutting bandsaw arrived today:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4k1nxm04n/IMG_2987.jpg)
Setup was a snap, blade already in and tensioned, though I had to re-attach the top handle since it was left loose for shipping and I pulled it off when un-boxing it. Instructions are usual fair-to-poor wording, but the operation is pretty simple - turn on main switch, set blade speed knob, pull trigger in top handle, and cut.
Started with some small 303 stainless steel bar, then tried a 1-7/8" brass bar for the rear tracks:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6bumsiyx3/IMG_2989.jpg)
Cuts very easily and quiet, everything stays cool (they say do not apply oil, cuts dry), and the cut is very square to the bar. So, took the time to cut the rest of the stock for the front and rear track frames (not the tracks themselves yet, just the frames and supports). Nice little pile without a ton of work, no strain on the bad wrist. For reference, the wide bars in the next photo are 2" wide, 3/8" thick, steel bar is 1".

(https://s5.postimg.cc/mmuqou3p3/IMG_2990.jpg)
Also got my order from McMaster with a length of Acme threaded rod and nuts, which I will use for the steering mechanism on the rear tracks. The rod is 1/4"-16 thread, and looking at the thread I think I can use a bit of it for the worm gear in the right-angle drive box. Speed and load will be low, so it seems like it should work out - most of the purpose made worm gears I've found are way too large, mostly 1/2" diameter. Will do some experiments with these...
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Admiral_dk on June 14, 2018, 09:39:07 PM
Hey wait, did your Elves just nick mine ....  :thinking: .... eh, no, different decals ... otherwise identical as far as I can see.

Congratulations with your new tool, may it provide you with long service  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 14, 2018, 09:50:53 PM
Hey wait, did your Elves just nick mine ....  :thinking: .... eh, no, different decals ... otherwise identical as far as I can see.

Congratulations with your new tool, may it provide you with long service  :cheers:
Nice to see the tuition for the decal printing class for the elves paid off!!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on June 15, 2018, 12:34:33 AM
Hi Chris, lots more good work on your engine...I have just been looking at the Muncaster  Allen gear engine design and the bottom actuating lever pivots are not equal  !! when i "designed " mine  i made the pivot points equal.. so i was wondering how they are on the Marion engine ?  my engine does work but i  don't know if there is any advantage having them as per Muncaster ? Here is a pic from his engine in the Model Engineer from 1908

Thanks ...
Willy
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 15, 2018, 12:41:54 AM
Hi Chris, lots more good work on your engine...I have just been looking at the Muncaster  Allen gear engine design and the bottom actuating lever pivots are not equal  !! when i "designed " mine  i made the pivot points equal.. so i was wondering how they are on the Marion engine ?  my engine does work but i  don't know if there is any advantage having them as per Muncaster ? Here is a pic from his engine in the Model Engineer from 1908

Thanks ...
Willy
Hi Willy,


On the Marion hoist engine, it is a straight link, but does not have the middle balance link like your book shows. They only did short burst runs, so never needed to feather the valves like in a mill or loco. So, the Marion is a normal Stephenson setup but with a short straight slider to save space.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on June 15, 2018, 01:22:10 AM
Hi Chris, lots more good work on your engine...I have just been looking at the Muncaster  Allen gear engine design and the bottom actuating lever pivots are not equal  !! when i "designed " mine  i made the pivot points equal.. so i was wondering how they are on the Marion engine ?  my engine does work but i  don't know if there is any advantage having them as per Muncaster ? Here is a pic from his engine in the Model Engineer from 1908

Thanks ...
Willy
Hi Willy,


On the Marion hoist engine, it is a straight link, but does not have the middle balance link like your book shows. They only did short burst runs, so never needed to feather the valves like in a mill or loco. So, the Marion is a normal Stephenson setup but with a short straight slider to save space.

Hi Chris , ok thanks for that ..and a very prompt reply ...
Willy...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 15, 2018, 03:15:51 AM
Hi Chris, lots more good work on your engine...I have just been looking at the Muncaster  Allen gear engine design and the bottom actuating lever pivots are not equal  !! when i "designed " mine  i made the pivot points equal.. so i was wondering how they are on the Marion engine ?  my engine does work but i  don't know if there is any advantage having them as per Muncaster ? Here is a pic from his engine in the Model Engineer from 1908

Thanks ...
Willy
Hi Willy,


On the Marion hoist engine, it is a straight link, but does not have the middle balance link like your book shows. They only did short burst runs, so never needed to feather the valves like in a mill or loco. So, the Marion is a normal Stephenson setup but with a short straight slider to save space.

Hi Chris , ok thanks for that ..and a very prompt reply ...
Willy...
Just dumb luck on when I got home and checked the forum. It would be interesting to mock up the link both ways and turn it over slow to see how each behaves, wonder what the effect is?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on June 15, 2018, 10:51:29 AM
Hi Chris,
 After you have given the elves there instructions for the day & settle down on the porch in the sun, you might find this interesting.....

http://www.ferroviefelettane.it

The text is in Italian but the pictures are inspiring! The videos are great as well. Would be great reading.


Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 15, 2018, 01:45:42 PM
Hi Chris,
 After you have given the elves there instructions for the day & settle down on the porch in the sun, you might find this interesting.....

http://www.ferroviefelettane.it (http://www.ferroviefelettane.it)

The text is in Italian but the pictures are inspiring! The videos are great as well. Would be great reading.


Cheers Kerrin
Wow, gotta go bring that site up on the PC, my tablet doesn't seem to be able to get it translated. The big boy is amazing, so is the model 50 shovel!

EDIT: PC was able to translate - VERY impressive work he did! I saw a brief writeup of this on the UK model mag site, this has much more detail. His solution for the center valve in the swing/crowd engine looks simpler than mine, going to revisit that one! Thanks for the link!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 15, 2018, 02:26:48 PM
Kerrin - been looking at his slew engine setup, going to redesign my center valve - had been making it too complex, was going to use a spool valve with two sets of o rings, now realize it can be a simple d valve with triangular ports for the throttle action. I was thinking spool valve since that is how Marion did it, but this way will be easier to make at the model scale, and can use one large steam chest rather than three sections...
Back to 3D modelling on that!

YET ANOTHER EDIT:
Okay, must be losing it - at some point I had already switched it to the slider with triangular ports for the center valve...
Or maybe the elves did that for me, would explain the muttering and head shaking a couple of months ago...

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on June 15, 2018, 07:43:48 PM
Next up will be the front support for the boiler, which comes down through the floor and bolts to the bottom of the frame I beams. Not sure why they did it this way, rather than just a larger cross beam and supporting it all at floor level, but I am doing it the same way they did.
Chris:

Since the was a RAILWAY shovel in a previous life, they probably were trying to save every inch of height that they could.  It's real expensive to have to ship a shovel around a mountain because it won't fit through the tunnel - even if you own the railroad.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 15, 2018, 07:56:52 PM
Next up will be the front support for the boiler, which comes down through the floor and bolts to the bottom of the frame I beams. Not sure why they did it this way, rather than just a larger cross beam and supporting it all at floor level, but I am doing it the same way they did.
Chris:

Since the was a RAILWAY shovel in a previous life, they probably were trying to save every inch of height that they could.  It's real expensive to have to ship a shovel around a mountain because it won't fit through the tunnel - even if you own the railroad.

Don
It would not have saved any height - the front of the boiler is a couple feet off the floor, they could have put a crossbeam on top of the floor and taken the same room. Rather, they put the crossbeam top at floor level, and bolted it from underneath the bottom of the frames. Either way works, this just seems like an odd way to do it. Probably one of those things determined by the order they assembled things?
Here is a better look at what I am talking about. This is a view of the front of the boiler from inside the cab, you can see the bracket that the boiler sits on, and the way it is on top of the brace coming through  the floor:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/btj3lqo6v/DSC_7332.jpg)
The floor is rotted away there from the coal ash that would have been spilled there from cleaning the tubes. The diagonal bars are the backstay up to the A-frame.
Here is a view from underneath, showing the bottom brace bolted to the bottom of the frames - this way, the wieght of the front of the boiler is all held by tension on the bolts, nothing on the top of the large frame beams, which seems odd. Over time, that top bar of that bottom brace is bowing from the wieght.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/xspi8xxbb/DSC_6881.jpg)

The large screw at the bottom of the picture is what moves the tiller on the rear tracks side to side to steer the machine.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 16, 2018, 12:55:38 AM
Catching up on progress from yesterday and today - while giving the batch of brass stock cut yesterday a bake in the oven to stress relieve it (since many will have one side cut away to form the shapes), a quick turning job was to make the axle shafts for the front tracks, which go through the track supports and then will go through the center of the vertical track castings. Drilled a cross hole at the end for the retaining pin which holds a ring outside the track castings.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/72nthk7wn/IMG_2992.jpg)
Then back to the rear track support. Again, here is what the whole assembly is going to look like:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tv5wuf747/Rear_Tracks.png)
Turned a length of 1-7/8" round bar to shape and drilled/bored the 1/2" hole in the center which lets it fit over the vertical post coming off the bottom of the main frame.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/am9r7dq1z/IMG_2993.jpg)
Fairly simple shape, cylinder with some steps on the top end to go through a plate and form the bearing surface on top.The 'tiller' part of the unit will be made from two sandwiched plates - one that extends over and around the main pillar just turned, the other in front and underneath to make up the rest of the thickness of the tiller. The top plate includes a row of angled gusset plates around the top of the pillar. I could make this by adding seperate plates for each gusset, but that would be a lot of tiny parts to line up and hold in place for soldering - that option quickly went out the window and down the hill.Next option was to mill the top plate and the gussets out of one thicker piece of bar - with the rotary table, that should be not much different than doing spokes on a gear. So, drilled a hole in the center of one end to position the plate on the rotary table, with that hole centered on the table's rotation axis. Then, milled out a slot to the depth that left the top plate material. This slot is a ways inside the diameter of the finished hole, which let me do some test cuts for the gussets without risking the entire piece.I lined up the side of the small end mill with the centerline through the rotary tables axis, then moved over another .031" to line up with one edge of the gusset plates. With the part square to the table, made a pass out to the outer edge and back, then rotated the table 18 degrees and repeated the pass for each gusset. The gussets extend halfway around the hole, and then one more. The positions towards the tiller are not cut, since that is where the main block of the tiller is.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/5nm8sv9ef/IMG_2994.jpg)
Then, moved the table over the opposite direction by .062" plus the thickness of the cutter, which got it lined up with the opposite side of the gusset plates, and made another series of passes, which left the gussets standing alone, plus a set of wedges between them out at the edges. This picture was taken halfway through the second set of passes - the gussets on the right are formed, those on the left only have the one pass made.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/9wqyuzunb/IMG_2995.jpg)
Here all the gussets are formed, and the wedges have been nibbled away as well.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9786in1tj/IMG_2997.jpg)
Next step was to come back and narrow the center post to less than 1/2" so I could use the pillar to check the diameter of the center opening, and then made a set of light passes to open up the center space till it matched the outer diameter of the pillar.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/a9id1702f/IMG_2999.jpg)
Then went around the outside, with a series of light cuts (so I did not bend any gussets) and took them to width. The gussets are fairly narrow, and later on the outside edge will be tapered in to meet the pillar. Yes, it seems like a long way to go for a minor detail, but its those little details I love to see in the models.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/eveh9k8qv/IMG_3001.jpg)
At this point, it looks like BrassHenge! Hmmm, maybe the shop elves are Druids??   :thinking:
Last step on this are was to lower the cutter and make a circle cut to free the remaining post in the middle - first checked my clamps to make sure they were tight, and also left a narrow connector to the outside until I had made a few passes and had the diameter dialed it. Then, cut through that last bit to free the post. Here is the plate with the pillar set in place, nice snug fit! :cartwheel:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qkigxjf53/IMG_3004.jpg)
Next job will be to screw the second tiller plate to the top plate, and mill the tapered section towards the front and the rounded corners at the back. Then will mill the flat on the front of the pillar and join up all three pieces. I think I will use screws and loctite again, no need for silver solder, which would be tricky with the thin gussets on the surface of the mass of the pillar.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on June 16, 2018, 02:18:58 AM
Hi Chris,
 Thought you might find that link interesting! What / how did you translate the pages......you can tell I didn’t look.....I was just gob smacked at the work!

Parts are looking good!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 16, 2018, 02:26:11 AM
Hi Chris,
 Thought you might find that link interesting! What / how did you translate the pages......you can tell I didn’t look.....I was just gob smacked at the work!

Parts are looking good!

Cheers Kerrin
Used the google translate feature - on the google search page, put in 'translate:www.foo.com' in the search box, where www.foo.com is the page you want to translate. It should figure out the other language, and do the work. Very handy feature.
His models are awesome - depends some on friends with very high end cnc and 3d metal printing, but still wonderful stuff.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 16, 2018, 08:26:06 PM
More done on the rear track support, milled the flat on the pillar piece, and drilled/tapped holes to hold the three parts together. They were then assembled with some Loctite retaining compound, and sketched on the shapes to be milled next.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/kqzoon0g7/IMG_3006.jpg)

The screw heads will be milled off after the loctite has had time to set up.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/fsc6a44d3/IMG_3007.jpg)

Started by trimming the front end, then milled the slot for the cross axle to go it. This is deep enough to allow the axle to rock side to side as it goes over uneven ground. Still need to cut in for the cross axle pivot.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/s6yyagbav/IMG_3008.jpg)

Started shaping down the sides, where they taper to the front of the tiller portion. Started with a stop cut where it transitions back to the square section, then will start on the angled part.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/tyrx5cmxz/IMG_3009.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: b.lindsey on June 16, 2018, 08:44:53 PM
Still checking in Chris and following along, even if quietly. Nice looking cut off saw btw  :ThumbsUp:

Bill
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 16, 2018, 09:29:43 PM
Still checking in Chris and following along, even if quietly. Nice looking cut off saw btw  :ThumbsUp:

Bill
Thanks Bill!  It passed its trial runs with flying colors, saved me a lot of time and pressure on the hand.

On another note - several months ago my photo host (PostImage) had some oddball issues with their domain name, were forced to change the .org ending to .cc instead (this was NOT a PhotoSuckit type money grab, they are still free, they just got tossed out of the .org namespace). Anyway, I had been in touch with Ade to see if he could do a global search/replace of the address phrase in the database and update all photos there to the new ending. He has been/still is buried at his real work, sounds like, and has not been able to get a chance to try it.So, I was able to find a text search/replace plugin to help, and have manually gone through my Lombard and Marion build threads, and gotten those pictures back!  :cartwheel: Looking much better, but definitely a lot of work and hard on the hands (even with my new vertical mouse). I have not done my Corliss Twin thread, or any others I have attached photos to. The Shay thread was before I switched to hosting, and had just attached the photos.Still hoping that Ade will get a chance to try the global replace for the tons of photos I have in other threads, but at least my current main ones are back. This is where Murphies Law kicks in and gets me arrested, he is probably doing that work right NOW...    :atcomputer:
Anyway, if any of you spot any of my posts with broken photo links in the Marion or Lombard threads, please let me know which post number, I could well have missed some of them.
Thanks all!   :cheers:
Back to the build!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dave Otto on June 16, 2018, 09:43:45 PM
Interesting thing about your pictures Chris, for awhile a few weeks or so back my anti-malware program (Malware Bytes) was blocking all of your pictures. Then it all started working again, must have been when you fixed all the file names. I was only looking at the recent updates on the shovel. For some reason they didn't like the site that was hosting the photos.

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 16, 2018, 09:58:55 PM
Interesting thing about your pictures Chris, for awhile a few weeks or so back my anti-malware program (Malware Bytes) was blocking all of your pictures. Then it all started working again, must have been when you fixed all the file names. I was only looking at the recent updates on the shovel. For some reason they didn't like the site that was hosting the photos.

Dave
I fixed the Lombard photos a couple weeks ago, over time. Just finished the Marion ones this afternoon. All the recent photos in the last couple months were on the new server name anyway, they have not changed.
 :noidea:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 18, 2018, 12:33:41 AM
Today's fun was going over to Buffalo NY for the annual tour of the Ward Pumping Station, which takes water from Lake Erie and supplies it to the city of Buffalo. This facility has five enormous triple compound steam engines that each drove three cylinder pumps to push the water into the water mains. Each engine could deliver 30 million gallons per day. They stopped using the steam engines several decades ago, but they are still intact, and the heritage society over there is hoping to get a couple running again someday. They have one day a year when they hold an open house and tour (the facility is still owned by the city water department, modern pumps are in one end still supplying water to the city).
Here is the outside of the building:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ebrxk3147/DSC_7649a.jpg)
And a view down the line of the engines:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/q0vx81cnb/DSC_7640a.jpg)The narrower vertical pipe on the left is the steam inlet, the larger angled one on the right is the exhaust down to the condensers. The pipes and such below the main floor level are the pumps and feed pipes, inlet side from the lake is on the left, output to the city on the right.
Closer view of the engines:

(https://s5.postimg.cc/kcpmh4l5j/DSC_7505a.jpg)
View from one end, showing the gauges and the two 30 ton flywheels in each engine.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/y6dz66lgn/DSC_7503a.jpg)
Spec sheet of the engines:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5gr39iubb/DSC_7519a.jpg)
In this shot you can see the governer on one of the engines, right of center. The shaft it is driven from also drives the corliss valve gear, one set of valves per cylinder.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/4r8ax61hj/DSC_7571a.jpg)
Said valve gear, this one on the high pressure cylinder, along with the lubricator mechanism:

(https://s5.postimg.cc/y6dz66t6f/DSC_7591a.jpg)
The low pressure cylinders all have this mechanism on the top of them, I don't know what it is, maybe some sort of release valve for condensate? It appears to have a counterweight holding it closed.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/cwqcvd7qv/DSC_7641a.jpg)
At one end of the building, there is this collection of modern pumps doing the job of the older steam engines - it fits in the lower level area the size of one of the steam engines. They said that the facility was designed to have 6 of the big steam engines, but it turned out 5 was enough so they never installed the last one. The modern pumps co-existed with the steam engines for a long time, and they used a combination of both for decades, it gave the ability to shut down some for maintenance while keeping up supply.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fe242mc7r/DSC_7535a.jpg)
A very interesting tour - hope they can get one running again someday! The boilers were in another building behind this one, we could not get in there so I don't know what condition they are in.
Tomorrow, back on the Marion build!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on June 18, 2018, 09:02:56 AM
What scale will you be using for this project?  :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: wagnmkr on June 18, 2018, 11:11:02 AM
...and will you be installing the 6th steam engine and scrapping the modern stuff?

Lovely pics ... Thanks

Tom
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 18, 2018, 02:48:33 PM
What scale will you be using for this project?  :LittleDevil:


1:1,  am building it nexr to the lake in Buffalo... !  It looks very realistic!   :Lol:


...and will you be installing the 6th steam engine and scrapping the modern stuff?

Lovely pics ... Thanks

Tom
Only if Jo has the right casting set!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 18, 2018, 07:53:32 PM
Back on the build today - finished tapering the sides of the tiller section, leaving a slight overhang at the top:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kmjcvb8hz/IMG_3010.jpg)

On thing I just realized, was that I had cut one too few gussets along the top of the pillar section. Two of them get overlaid by larger projections either side of the bottom slot, and there was supposed to be one more in front. So, luckily there was some material left there and used that to form the last gussets each side.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/woeqphclj/IMG_3011.jpg)

For the two side posts to have a place to be attached, milled small flats either side of the bottom slot, which removed two of the gussets. The side posts will get screwed on in a while.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/v9d60qw2v/IMG_3013.jpg)

There is a fore-and-aft axle at the bottom that acts as a pivot so the track axle can rock side to side. To drill that hole, which is halfway into the pillar, I bolted on a block large enough to form the bearing block caps from and drilled the hole for the axle - had to put the drill in the three jaw chuck to get enough height on the mill.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/hfotbpb7b/IMG_3017.jpg)

There needs to be a lip around the end of the axle, so I used the boring head to widen out the end of the axle hole. This will get a short bit of tube to form the lip.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/hfotbovrr/IMG_3018.jpg)

Side note - in one of the tech tips from Sherline, or maybe a post in one of the threads here, someone suggested using a 3/4-16 jam nut as a puller for the morse taper tools, to avoid having to hit the tool from the back end to remove it. This is first time I tried that, worked perfectly - screwed it on the spindle before installing the boring head, then when it was time to remove the head I loosened the drawbar, put a tommy bar in the spindle hole, and used a wrench to back out the jam nut - popped the boring head right out with no impacts.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7idsim8qf/IMG_3019.jpg)

Finishing up on the tiller end, milled a .400 wide by .225 deep groove in the end. This will take the holder (to be made still) for the post that goes out to the threaded rod which will run crossways frmo the frame. This holder will allow the post to slide in and out, since the distance to the threaded rod will change as the tiller bar swings side to side. With the tiller sides tapered, it was easiest to clamp the part to the rotary tool plate for milling.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/z5qhwr47r/IMG_3020.jpg)

Then tapered the bottom of the tiller up to the front end. The square base of the part was held in the vise, with a small machinist jack supporting the tiller end. A small block on the mill table kept the jack from slipping out.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/hsg7hwgmf/IMG_3021.jpg)

Here is the part so far - next is to make the side posts next to the bottom slot, shape the bearing caps, then make the tiller end post holder.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/t4sszox13/IMG_3022.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on June 19, 2018, 05:53:04 AM
  :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on June 19, 2018, 08:33:15 AM
A real masterclass in both workholding and fabrication. I'm building up a great store of tips for when I eventually find time to spend in the workshop  :happyreader:

This thread is always my first port of call every morning  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 19, 2018, 01:03:39 PM
Thanks guys, glad to have you along for the ride! 

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 19, 2018, 01:09:26 PM
What scale will you be using for this project?  :LittleDevil:


1:1,  am building it nexr to the lake in Buffalo... !  It looks very realistic!   :Lol:


...and will you be installing the 6th steam engine and scrapping the modern stuff?

Lovely pics ... Thanks

Tom
Only if Jo has the right casting set!


 :cheers:
Well, maybe we can make this one a community project, it would be so big. I contacted the folks at the Buffalo Industrial Heritage association, asking if anyone had ever made measured drawings of the Holly pumping engines there. I was expecting maybe they had a general arrangement view or two, at best.

One of them very graciously sent me a pdf scanned copy of the blueprints he had, turns out it is the original manufacturing blueprint set from Holly in 1912 for the entire pumping engine. Only 160 (yes, hundred sixty) pages!!   :o   Incredibly detailed, down to the brackets supporting the paltforms. Everybody take a part, make 5 sets, John can make us a diorama building to put them in, then we can drive the Stanley Steamer car that Zee wants me to build around inside it all!
Talk about a retirement project!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 19, 2018, 08:25:08 PM
Got the pivot axle bearing caps shaped down, usual way with a spacer rod and the end mill. These are not really bearings, more like holders, since the axle itself does not turn, the center block with the track axles moves on this rod.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ah7djh2lj/IMG_3027.jpg)
End view, showing the throw on the axle pivot, not a lot but enough to deal with slight uneven terrain in the quarry.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gi52gj9s7/IMG_3030.jpg)
Last piece for the tiller arm is the tube that the rod out to the cross screw rides in. Simple turning/drilling to shape on the lathe, then milled the bottom to match the slot in the end of the tiller.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/p0eikwb5z/IMG_3031.jpg)
Here is the tube loctited and screwed in place from underneath.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/impfhmj4n/IMG_3033.jpg)
The sliding rod cut to size, a 4-40 hole in the end to hold the screw bracket, and slid into its place. It will ride in and out in the tube as the tracks are steered, coming out farther as they are turned to the side, since the distance to the cross screw changes as the track support turns.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/atyrpo80n/IMG_3034.jpg)
And here it is set into place under the frame, held by the center pivot post into the bearing pad on the frame.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ah7djhabb/IMG_3035.jpg)
Next up is to make the bracket that goes on the end of the sliding rod, which holds the threaded block on the cross screw. When I bought the Acme threaded rod (1/4-16 Acme thread), I got a standard nut and also a threaded round bronze rod. I think I will use the bronze piece for the threaded block, just need to mill it square, probably easier to mill than the steel nut. It gets held in the bracket with a vertical pin, looking like half of a car universal joint. Then a bit of paint, and on to the track plates...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: sco on June 19, 2018, 10:22:00 PM
Great work on that complex part Chris - still following along,

Simon.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on June 20, 2018, 12:27:11 AM
Great work on that complex part Chris - still following along,

Same here. But I have to admit...I sometimes fear to look.  ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 20, 2018, 12:54:18 AM
Great work on that complex part Chris - still following along,

Simon.

Thanks Simon!   :cheers:


Great work on that complex part Chris - still following along,

Same here. But I have to admit...I sometimes fear to look.  ;D

You too Zee, thought I heard someone slurping a Hoppie back there!   :wine1: I was afraid you would bail out when I mentioned getting those blueprints for the Holly pumping engines. Though, that size project is better suited for a shop like yours!   :o
 
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 20, 2018, 01:05:17 AM
I think this completes the parts on the rear track support assembly (will do the steering parts later). Final bits are the leadscrew nut and the bracket to hold it. The nut started with a bronze round threaded Acme nut that I bought along with the threaded rod. It is thick enough for the part, and large enough diameter to get the square part out of.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/oisjwy86v/IMG_3036.jpg)
Milled the thing square, and drilled a hole through for the center pivot. The pivot cannot go all the way through, since the shaft will be there, but drilling through ensured the holes lined up. I ran the screw through to clear out the chips, all runs smoothly so fortunately no burs to worry about.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/75i9i3klj/IMG_3037.jpg)
The bracket was milled out of a spare chunk of brass, and cross drilled for the pivot screws. The screws are stepped to be smooth where they go into the nut, threaded for the bracket.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5qgotdr87/IMG_3038.jpg)
And here it is assembled onto the end of the tiller arm. Swinging the tiller from center to about 30 degrees to one side moves the sliding bar about 3/8" - figure that is probably more than the sharpest corner they would want to make on a machine balanced like this on the tracks. It would be fascinating to read their notes on this stuff!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gdahyt73b/IMG_3040.jpg)
So, I think all that is left is some paint on the rear support/tiller, then can move on to the track assemblies themselves - this project is farther along than I would have thought, though there is still LOTS to go - 4 steam engines, boiler, 3 gear trains, 4 track assemblies, drive shafts, controls, piping, cab frame/walls/roof, doors, ......
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on June 20, 2018, 01:07:40 AM
Chris--Wonderful work. I check your thread every day.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 20, 2018, 01:08:52 AM
Chris--Wonderful work. I check your thread every day.---Brian
Thanks Brian, likewise! Love the new engine!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on June 20, 2018, 01:58:34 AM
Chris, you really have a great advantage over most model makers in that you have access to the original. And that really shows in your work. Man, that's a great machine you're building there!

 :cheers:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 20, 2018, 02:08:39 AM
Thanks Pete! You are right, being able to see all the details in person really inspires going the extra mile. So glad I had those other projects under my belt before finding this shovel, could not have done this a few years ago.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 20, 2018, 10:58:51 PM
Got a coat of paint on the rear track support assembly, really changes the look:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xptq9sv5j/IMG_3042.jpg)
And got started on the rear vertical track plates. I have not shown this shot in quite a while, here is a rendering of what the rear tracks will look like:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6u6ekyi07/Track_Assemblies_Rear.png)
What I am working on now is the vertical casting in the center, that will hold the track sprocket wheels and connect to the axle. There is one plate on either side of each track, with a spacer in the center. The rear sprocket axle is in a fixed position, the front one is on a sliding block to allow tensioning of the tracks. There is only one bottom wheel on the rear tracks, where the front tracks have three - the rear tracks are much shorter front to back.
So, started by milling 4 brass plates to overall size, then started drilling the holes for the axles and a slot for the adjustable axle. I used the rear left corner of the plates as my index point, lining it up with the corner of the mill vise, so I could position the table for each hole, and swap all four plates through, drilling the one hole at a time. Made the set go quickly, and all four came out the same.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/gcjfuy7k7/IMG_3044.jpg)
Note the position of the layout mark on the left - that will come up in a bit...
After all the holes were in all four plates, set up on the rotary table (with a cardboard spacer underneath to allow milling all the way through without hitting the table), and milled the back end round.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/oi1ht43iv/IMG_3046.jpg)
It was partway through this operation that I realized that I had made a brain fart - the rear axle holes were too high up, centers should have been just above the centerline. I must have misread the plan, or misread the calipers, since it was .200 too high.   :facepalm:
So, silver soldered in a small length of rod to plug the goof, and re-drilled the holes. You can see the color difference on the next photos.
Next milling step was to angle off the front corners - did this with all four stacked up with a bit of rod in the axle holes to line them up. The angle was the same, 37 degrees, as one of the angle blocks I had made for the front supports, so that was used to set the parts in the vise.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/exhv68tmf/IMG_3047.jpg)
The transition from the angled portion to the long edge was then smoothed out on the belt sander, leaving the parts in this state:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6rzt82xnr/IMG_3048.jpg)
Next step will be to lay out and mill in the recessed areas on the sides - this will take multiple setups, to leave the bosses around each axle.
The sharper-eyed among you (yes, you in the back, I see the smirk) will notice an extra hole at 4:00 from the top center axle hole. This is not a goof, that hole is there in the real machine. Dont know why, it is unused, but they cast it in. Used during assembly maybe? Dunno.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on June 20, 2018, 11:42:16 PM
The rear tracks look like fun.  :popcorn:

I've run out of superlatives.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 21, 2018, 12:01:02 AM
The rear tracks look like fun.  :popcorn:

I've run out of superlatives.
No Applause. Just send cookies!   :cheers:

The actual track segments are going to be a challenge - much more complex a shape than the Lombard ones were, not sure how to make them yet. Should be fun!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 21, 2018, 05:45:38 PM
Continuing on with the rear track plates, laid out the first set of recesses in the sides, being sure to have two right side and two left side arrangements. Then double checked. Again....
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dqqwaiwmv/IMG_3049.jpg)
With the first plate clamped back on the rotary table, using the outline traced there when milling the outside profile as a guide to placement, milled out the first set of openings.In this position, the arc around the end is centered on the table, so milling the rim shape was easy. I left the material around the axle boss large, that will be done in next step with the hole centered on the table.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/v2r8wjy07/IMG_3051.jpg)
After milling all four plates to the same stage, the axle hole was centered on the plate and held with a bolt in a bushing sized to the hole plus the hold down clamps. Then milled around the hole to form the boss.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6nj0ux6mv/IMG_3052.jpg)
After all four were done, put in a larger bushing to center the main axle hole on the rotary table, and went around the larger boss there.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/awnqx326f/IMG_3053.jpg)
And took out the rest of the opening, again leaving the lower axle boss roughed in, it will be taken to shape next.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/m90cevqav/IMG_3054.jpg)
So far so good, lots more cranking to go....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on June 21, 2018, 06:42:38 PM
Get a CNC mill.  You won't be so "cranky".   :Doh:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 21, 2018, 07:25:12 PM
Get a CNC mill.  You won't be so "cranky".   :Doh:


 :Lol:


I'd get bored watching it work, leave it to the elves, they would make steel elf hats or something... Not worth the risk!


 :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on June 21, 2018, 08:31:04 PM

I'd get bored watching it work

No you wouldn't, but even if you did you'd be in good company because the rest of us would be watching too.

It's like the man said," I like work: it fascinates me.  I could sit and look at it for hours."  I always thought it was W.C. Fields that said that because it sounds like a line he'd use.  Turns out it was Jerome K. Jerome about 50 years earlier.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on June 21, 2018, 09:10:42 PM
Actually pressing the green button is a moment of terror and suspense.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 21, 2018, 09:26:21 PM
Actually pressing the green button is a moment of terror and suspense.
Less so if you remember to let go of the drill bit first...   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on June 21, 2018, 10:33:09 PM
Actually pressing the green button is a moment of terror and suspense.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the new machines won't let them "mill on themselves", no so with the early models I've heard. :o
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on June 21, 2018, 10:35:45 PM
Get a CNC mill.  You won't be so "cranky".   :Doh:


 i encourage you not to do this, I can't imagine what the elves might produce in the dark of night :-X while you innocently slept. :help:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 22, 2018, 01:40:27 AM
Get a CNC mill.  You won't be so "cranky".   :Doh:

 i encourage you not to do this, I can't imagine what the elves might produce in the dark of night :-X while you innocently slept. :help:
Oh my.  Thinking about that, how can I sleep!!
 :paranoia:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Larry on June 22, 2018, 03:22:32 AM
Congratulations on 100 pages !
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 22, 2018, 03:29:57 AM
Congratulations on 100 pages !


Thanks Larry!  Though it must depend on your browser or font setup, for me its 30 pages. Nearly 100000 views though. Going to be a lot more, probably most of another year to go!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Chester on June 22, 2018, 10:18:59 AM
In roughly 8 months time, you have supplied 100,000 instances of awe and amazement, and we’re only halfway done! , I’m sitting here just slack-jawed!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Alan Haisley on June 22, 2018, 02:49:53 PM
Continuing on with the rear track plates, laid out the first set of recesses in the sides, being sure to have two right side and two left side arrangements. Then double checked. Again....
My usual mistake … make a left when I need a right or vice-versa. Good job avoiding it.  :)
I really love this shovel build.
Alan
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 22, 2018, 03:21:32 PM
Thanks guys!
This morning got the boss on the lower roller axle hole shaped down,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/iva6sz4tj/IMG_3055.jpg)
and started cutting the forward end recesses.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/51lu3xjxz/IMG_3058.jpg)
Last part to do will be the opening for the sliding block to hold the front axle. The original has a set of slots runing down the length, dont think I'll be able to do those with the cutters I have, need to think on that one a bit...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on June 22, 2018, 06:10:24 PM
Congratulations on 100 pages !

Thanks Larry!  Though it must depend on your browser or font setup, for me its 30 pages. Nearly 100000 views though. Going to be a lot more, probably most of another year to go!

There's a setting in your forum profile that lets you set the number of post per page.  I believe the default is 15 post per page.  You must have your set much higher, Chris.

Excellent work on your Marion, Chris, as always!
I'm sure you'll work through your current dilemma and I'll be here watching!  :popcorn:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 22, 2018, 06:17:33 PM
Congratulations on 100 pages !

Thanks Larry!  Though it must depend on your browser or font setup, for me its 30 pages. Nearly 100000 views though. Going to be a lot more, probably most of another year to go!

There's a setting in your forum profile that lets you set the number of post per page.  I believe the default is 15 post per page.  You must have your set much higher, Chris.

Excellent work on your Marion, Chris, as always!
I'm sure you'll work through your current dilemma and I'll be here watching!  :popcorn:
Kim
Aha! I had set mine to 50 per page, explains why whenever people mentioned page numbers I was off in the weeds. :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 22, 2018, 06:28:05 PM
Coming down to the last operations on the rear track plates - the slot for the adjustable axle bearing blocks. Started by milling the openings, used the mill vise to ensure that they were parallel to the frame outline.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/sdej6k5jb/IMG_3060.jpg)
Then, the last feature is a pair of thin shallow slots on either side, for the flanges on the sliding blocks to ride in while keeping them from slipping out sideways. Not having any keyway cutters or anything that skinny, I was poking through the drawer of bits and spotted a boring head bit that had worn out and been replaced. Figuring that there was no problem experimenting on a worn out bit, I took it up to the grinder with a fine wheel and reprofiled it to leave a thin squared end. A few tests and some more grinding, and got a tip that did the job. With the bit held in the boring head, I set the height on the first part, cut the slots at the bottom of the recess in all the parts, then raised the height and cut all the slots in the top of the recess. Looks quite good, should be easy enough to cut the sliding blocks to match.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/p6jzmx5nr/IMG_3063.jpg)
Final operation was to drill the opening for the adjusting screw. This is a square recess on the original, with a cross bolt to hold it. It is way too far in for a small mill cutter to reach to make the squared hole, so I just drilled a slightly larger round hole.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4mf5ogd1z/IMG_3066.jpg)
Here are the parts so far, test fit on the rear track holder:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kxf9kra47/IMG_3069.jpg)
Next up is the spacer block that hold the two sides together, then will start on the slider blocks...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 22, 2018, 07:52:31 PM
Whoops - just realized that when I put the plates on for the photo, that I had put them in the wrong order, two lefts with two rights.
 :facepalm2:
Here is the proper setup!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5sj5nfgtz/IMG_3070.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 22, 2018, 09:36:28 PM
Made up the spacer blocks for the track plates, simple rectangle with hole for the axle, and a screw to hold it in place.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/j0ijg941j/IMG_3071.jpg)
Here they are test fit on the track support:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5wcz3kjpj/IMG_3073.jpg)
Tomorrow will get started on the sliding front axle blocks, and also need to make the retaining rings for the ends of the main axle (basically a couple of large thin washers).
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 24, 2018, 04:49:26 PM
Decided to start on the lower track rollers yesterday. There is one per rear track, but the front tracks have three each, and all are the same, so a good chance to mass produce a set all at once. Started with some lengths of stainless bar stock, cut and trimmed to length. Then turned in the outer diameter, inner hub, and outer axle on one end of each (did the same on all 8 parts, once each section was done for the first, made a note of the settings so the rest went pretty quick).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rx7k935jr/IMG_3075.jpg)
Then flipped them around and made the hub and axle cuts on the other side. Here is the first one done:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mlsnodr6v/IMG_3076.jpg)
Got to do the same on the other 7, then the ends of the center section need to tapered in so they will fit in the bottom of the track segments.

One other bit of fun yesterday - the DVD of old Marion films I ordered from the HCEA arrived, great stuff. It has about a half hour of film of Model 92's at work, then the rest is film of more modern shovels, up through the giant drag line machines. The 92's are very similar to this model 91, and all the ones shown were on crawler tracks - great to see the tracks in action as well as the shovels. Amazing how big a bite they would take, many were doing 5 and 6 bucketfuls per minute of heavy rocks. One took several tries, and finally lifted a single boulder that was several times the size of the bucket, he had it balanced on top of the bucket and moved it to the side.

Another one had me stumped for a while, it had a double set of gears on the main boom for the crowd engine, rather than the single pair normally. Spent some time searching catalogs and photos, could not find it at all, and was starting to think it was a custom setup. Then, noticed the lettering along the top of the cab, which said it was a "Model 92 E".    E? Oh - electric! Then saw it had no smokestack, steam dome, or exhaust, it was one of the electric motor versions, and they apparently had to change the gearing ratios for the motor.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 24, 2018, 07:12:44 PM
Turned down the other roller axles, then went back and tapered in the sides of the center sections. This was done freehand, etchasketch style, important dimensions were the outer and inner lengths, the curved taper in between was done by eye.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3ohmoakev/IMG_3077.jpg)
Tapering the center sections went quickly, so here are the 8 rollers, two for the rear and six for the front tracks to be made later. The rear ones are test fit in the track frames, turn freely so that should complete the rollers. Next will make the adjustable sliding blocks for the front axles...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8zwj90e7b/IMG_3081.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 24, 2018, 10:43:56 PM
One more bit of swarf for the day - got the stock for the sliders milled to shape and fit to the slots - according to the measurements it should have fit, but it would not go into the openings. Turns out the little slot cutter I made had left just enough of a bur on the edges of the slots to bind it up. A little filing with the corner of a needle file, and its a good fit.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bey24ifxj/IMG_3084.jpg)
Then drilled the holes for the axles,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ctzmt8wg7/IMG_3085.jpg)
and holes crosswise for the adjusting screws:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/v9k3qn2uv/IMG_3086.jpg)
All that remains on these parts is to take a pace on the face to get it down to final thickness, cut them apart, and clean up the cut ends. The adjusting screws go right through the axles, which do not spin, the sprocket wheels spin on the axles instead.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Gas_mantle on June 24, 2018, 10:53:49 PM
Looks great Chris  :ThumbsUp:

It never ceases to amaze me how you manage to accurately machine large components on relatively small tooling
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 25, 2018, 12:16:27 AM
Looks great Chris  :ThumbsUp:

It never ceases to amaze me how you manage to accurately machine large components on relatively small tooling
:cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on June 25, 2018, 01:33:53 AM
It never ceases to amaze me how you manage to accurately machine large components on relatively small tooling

Re: "It never ceases to amaze me"...quite true.
Re: "The rest of it"...that's the elves. Don't give Chris too much credit.  :Lol: By his own admission.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 25, 2018, 01:45:46 AM
It never ceases to amaze me how you manage to accurately machine large components on relatively small tooling

Re: "It never ceases to amaze me"...quite true.
Re: "The rest of it"...that's the elves. Don't give Chris too much credit.  :Lol: By his own admission.


Yeah, um, well, I figured out how to turn evil shop gnomes into helpful shop elves, so I can take credit for the work. Yeah, thats it!


 :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on June 25, 2018, 02:34:19 AM
You really should be the Sherline poster child  :ThumbsUp: :cheers:

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 25, 2018, 03:21:27 AM
You really should be the Sherline poster child  :ThumbsUp: :cheers:

Cletus
Well, they did mention me and my article series in their ad in the latest issue of Live Steam magazine...   8)
No delivery of sample machines, but what the hey! They were very interested in the build and asked a lot of questions about it and my shop.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 25, 2018, 07:50:44 PM
Got the sliding blocks cut apart and trimmed to size, also made up a set of end fittings for the threaded adjusting rods. The end fittings are threaded in the long axis, clearance drilled across the end, to hold the adjuster rods in place. The nuts either side of the blocks would be moved to shift the blocks, and push the axles out to tension the tracks. Next is to make the axles, simple rod with cross holes for the threaded rods...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5vd54fryv/IMG_3088.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 25, 2018, 09:31:59 PM
Axles made, cut to length and cross drilled. Realized that I should have drilled the holes in the vertical plates for the adjusting rods all the way through the partition wall, or there is no way to assemble them, since the adjuster rod has to be slipped through the hole from the rear after all the other parts are in place. I went back and checked the photos of the original, and they did it that way too. So, drilled those the rest of the way in and it went together fine. Here is what the axle looks like in place:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/nr60f4a3r/IMG_3089.jpg)
I think the next parts will be the sprocket wheels. On the rear tracks, the wheels just guide the tracks, the tracks are not driven. On the front set of tracks, the rear wheel engages the tracks to drive them. So, I will need to make 6 wheels at this point, 4 for the rear tracks, 2 of them to be used later on the front tracks. The toothed wheels will be made seperately, after the tracks themselves, to ensure they engage just right.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on June 25, 2018, 10:13:40 PM
More beautiful work. Have you thought of contacting PBS or the History Channel; you might be the next Bob Ross of machining

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 25, 2018, 10:30:03 PM
More beautiful work. Have you thought of contacting PBS or the History Channel; you might be the next Bob Ross of machining

Cletus


Oh no, can see it now, Zee and I in a new show, American Swarf!


 :lolb:


One question, whats a Bob Ross?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on June 25, 2018, 10:34:09 PM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Ross
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 25, 2018, 10:57:15 PM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Ross (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Ross)
Oh yes!


I can only get hair like that after a bad 3 phase wiring job...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 25, 2018, 11:53:22 PM
Correction to the next step being the wheels - found that I did not have anything large enough diameter (2" starting stock) for the sprocket wheels, so just found a nice chunk of 303 stainless 2" bar on Yarde Metals that will do nicely, should have it by the end of the week (nice price on drops there, it was 1/3 the cost elsewhere).
So, maybe in the meantime I'll start laying out the front track frames instead - they are more complex a shape than the rear ones, and a couple inches longer. It will be the same fabrication style though, milled from a solid rectangular bar.
Here is what the front ones look like:

(https://s5.postimg.cc/oab3ooz13/DSC_6156.jpg)
Note a couple of interesting features - along the top edge, towards the front (on the right), it bumps up a bit where it starts on the sprocket wheel. Not a repair, all 4 are like that. Also, just left of the main axle is another round hole - no idea what that is for, likewise the rectangular holes and the other small round one. All I can guess is that they used these castings on other machines with a slightly different setup??   :thinking:
The tracks themselves are going to be interesting to make, they are a very complex shape.(https://s5.postimg.cc/eprh1ujzr/Track_Assemblies_v21a.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tyhefmldz/Track_Assemblies_v21b.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/y7m4hswd3/Track_Assemblies_v21c.jpg)
If I only needed a couple, great candidate for 3d printing or casting, but it needs 76 good ones, plus some spares for milling mistakes.... Gotta send Elmer The Elf to micro-welding school!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on June 26, 2018, 12:37:15 AM
More beautiful work. Have you thought of contacting PBS or the History Channel; you might be the next Bob Ross of machining

Wow. That was confusing. I knew a Bob Ross at work. He was into model trains. I'm sorry I lost track of him.

But mainly I wanted to say...despite my few (and I'm sure desirable) comments...I'm just too gobsmacked.

This thread certainly raises the desire to find something 'real' to model that has had insufficient historical attention.

Can I get a cookie for that?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 26, 2018, 12:55:54 AM
More beautiful work. Have you thought of contacting PBS or the History Channel; you might be the next Bob Ross of machining

Wow. That was confusing. I knew a Bob Ross at work. He was into model trains. I'm sorry I lost track of him.

But mainly I wanted to say...despite my few (and I'm sure desirable) comments...I'm just too gobsmacked.

This thread certainly raises the desire to find something 'real' to model that has had insufficient historical attention.

Can I get a cookie for that?


Take a dozen! 


Having the real life machine made a huge difference to me, both in inspiration and in getting details. When this one is done, its going to be interesting to get a photo with both in the frams, may need to set the model 80 feet away to get it all in. On the Lombard photo, it was about 15 or 20 feet in front of the real one. Just like Willys model of the old mill engine, finding a real subject make a huge difference. Being in PA, any old steel mills or railroad factories near you?


Hmmm, can send you the plans for the Stanley engine...   :stickpoke:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 26, 2018, 01:05:34 AM
On the track wheels, been doodling a bit, deciding how to make them hollow like the real castings. Think it will work to make them in two halves, fitting together in the center with a lipped joint and silver soldering in place. Got the sequence figured out, I think, tune in later this week to see if it works (waiting for the bar stock).
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on June 26, 2018, 01:15:51 AM
Chris, I continue to be amazed at the level of detail you're putting into this model and the amount of work you can produce.  I always figured, if I did this for a living, at the rate I work the boss may would have handed my my pink slip and showed m the door long ago; you my friend would get a bonus!

Great work, can't wait to see this project when completed; ya gotta bring it to Cabin Fever!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on June 26, 2018, 01:37:09 AM
Hmmm, can send you the plans for the Stanley engine...   :stickpoke:

Why? You already have them.  ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 26, 2018, 01:39:32 AM
Hmmm, can send you the plans for the Stanley engine...   :stickpoke:

Why? You already have them.  ;D
Dang. He won that one!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 26, 2018, 09:22:39 PM
While waiting for the big bar of steel for the track sprocket wheels, getting started on the track frames for the front set. Started with some stress relieved 3/8" flat bar a little wider than needed, cut to lengths, and marked out the locations for the holes. Started by chain drilling the holes for the front axle adjustmnet slot,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6t2uyv2jr/IMG_3090.jpg)
Then milled down the sides, making the slots a few thou larger than the axle diameter.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3m8bf8ptj/IMG_3092.jpg)
Each one of these operations is being done on all 4 plates before going on to the next one, using some marks on the sides of the plates to index them into the vise in the same place each time. The locating and drilling continued on for the rest of the holes,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ch95prmbr/IMG_3093.jpg)
except for the rearmost axle hole. That will be done once the rear bearing cap is made and installed, so that the hole will be sure to line up properly. The large center axle hole was drilled to 3/8", then the boring head used to take it up to 3/4" to match the track support axles.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ygfkczavr/IMG_3096.jpg)
One large hole bored, need to make the same cut in the other 3 plates, then will go to work on the rear axle mount...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on June 26, 2018, 09:46:31 PM
I really like the seemingly large dial on your boring tool. I have a boring tool on which the dial is so small I have to use a magnifying glass to read it.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 26, 2018, 09:51:14 PM
I really like the seemingly large dial on your boring tool. I have a boring tool on which the dial is so small I have to use a magnifying glass to read it.
That is the stock Sherline boring head - the dial is on the end of the adjusting screw so it is out from the main tool body a bit, and it is 5/8" diameter. The only thing I dont like about their boring head is that the adjustng screw is more of a stop, the lower unit can slide freely when the lock bolt is loosened, so you have to be careful to push it in as you adjust or tighten the lock bolt.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 26, 2018, 09:58:36 PM
I was doing some more trolling through old patents online, and came up with the patent document for the track system that Marion used (copy attached, they are all public domain).  It not only shows their reasoning on things, but also what those extra bosses and holes are for. Originally they used a chain drive to the tracks, and the bosses were for the intermediate sprocket for the chain on the rear tracks, and for the outboard gear drive on the front tracks, meaning they originally had 4-track drive. They put another steam engine down on the rear track support, to power the rear tracks.
Very interesting stuff, still working my way through the document. Obviously they changed their minds on driving the rear tracks and how they connected the drive on the front ones, since the LeRoy shovel has only the front ones driven, and a geared shaft drive rather than chain on the front set. However, they kept the original track frame castings with the provisions for the 4-track drive. At least now I know why they track frames have all the extra complexity to them!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on June 26, 2018, 11:19:22 PM
I love the drafting in the section views. When I started in engineering in the pre-computer era, all our drafting was done manually. The company I worked in for 17 years built mining equipment, conveying equipment, and conveyors for self unloading great lake freighters. I still have a big stack of blueprints from drawings that I made back in the day between 1965 and 1982. There was as much art involved as there was technical information.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 27, 2018, 01:04:39 AM
I love the drafting in the section views. When I started in engineering in the pre-computer era, all our drafting was done manually. The company I worked in for 17 years built mining equipment, conveying equipment, and conveyors for self unloading great lake freighters. I still have a big stack of blueprints from drawings that I made back in the day between 1965 and 1982. There was as much art involved as there was technical information.
Their drawings are really wonderful. The section views of their crawd/swing engines in another patent are really amazing, considering they were all done by hand 100+ years ago.

One simple example:(https://s5.postimg.cc/nfee8x12f/US842465_4_-_Slew_Engine_2.jpg)
I love the old books, like what Willy shows occasionally, of the drawings of the early engines - amazing art.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 27, 2018, 01:15:42 AM
I got the rest of the main axle holes bored out:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/oe5dnuvlj/IMG_3097.jpg)
During that process it got me thinking - I've never really known the proper procedure for using the boring head, as far as depth/speed of cut goes, mainly sneaking up on it and taking light cuts. For the boring head, seems like there are two parts to the cut - how far to expand the diameter on each pass, and how fast to feed it down into the material. It seems to accept a larger depth of cut in the diameter direction than a boring bar on the lathe, but what IS the rule of thumb on using it? How much should I expand the diameter for each pass in brass vs steel? The feed rate can be determined by sound and feel (which is how I do most depth of cut). For those of you with some actual training, can you give me some pointers?
 :cheers:
Once all the boring work was done  ;D   the last section to drill is the rear axle mounting point. I want to bolt on the bearing caps first, and drill them as a unit, so needed to flatten off that area to the final position of the caps. The bulk of that section was sawn off, then trimmed down with the mill (the sawn sections may become the caps, the material is plenty large for that). The notch is pretty deep, so I angled it back to get the cutter that far in. The angled section will be taken back farther later to the real shape.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/hnowefg5j/IMG_3098.jpg)
Then the parts were all slid onto one of the axles to align them, and the flat was milled in all together - saved time and I could be sure they matched this way.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/70v390fpz/IMG_3099.jpg)
Next will be to make the blanks for the caps, and drill/tap the mounting holes, then will drill for the axles. The rear axles are unlike the front ones, these axles actually will be turning, so room will be left for bronze bearings. The inner ends of the rear axles will connect to the universal joints on the drive shafts from the gear train under the cab.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on June 27, 2018, 04:41:22 AM
Chris.....

it is hard to see or pick the OD/PCD of the traction drive pinion....could the top hole be for a locking pin for the pinion when performing maintenance or replacement of a chain link plate?

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 27, 2018, 02:03:20 PM
Hi Derek,
I had wondered about something like that, but yesterday I found the patent document for the Marion track system - posted it as a PDF a few posts ago. Here are some snippets of the drawings in it that show what those extra holes are for - they had a different drive mechanism at first, and apparently changed it but kept the original castings with the original drive bushings.
In the front track, they used a drive shaft out to a pair of reduction gears on the track frame. This is a top view, showing the drive shaft (43), turns a pinion gear (42) and the final gear (41) which is on the axle of the rear wheel.


(https://s5.postimg.cc/3llcith9z/patent2.jpg)

Here is the side view of the same thing, which shows the pinion gear 43 used that extra boss and hole. Later, when they ditched the extra gears and drove the rear wheel directly, the hole for 43 stayed, and they added more gears back under the main frame to get the same reduction. In the patent, they used a chain drive under the frame, like they did in the railroad truck version. What they eventually shipped was a gear train for extra reduction under the frame, and no chains and no gears on the tracks. More robust, no gears in the tracks to get muddy, and probably cheaper overall.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/ihjvqekyv/patent1.jpg)
Another interesting bit is that they played with a drive engine on the rear tracks as well, you can see that setup here:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/cgm6tcds7/patent3.jpg)The extra steam engine is shown at item 58, which used a bevel gear to turn the cross axle 13, which had a sprocket 63 turning a chain to a sprocket 65 on the rear wheel. I've found no evidence that this setuip was ever sold, probably they had trouble getting steam and controls to this engine as it would swing with the tracks, plus it would have been tough to keep it in sync with the front tracks speed. They call out that this engine is optional in the patent, think they were covering all bases in the claims, which is common in patents.
Fascinating stuff, gives a neat insight into their thought processes!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on June 27, 2018, 05:39:49 PM
Damn Dog just catching up again on this very impressive venture of yours. All I can say is do you every sleep? Just pure raw talent the way you go about fabricating those parts. The details you put into your parts add that much more to the realistic look of the machine. Outstanding craftsmenship Chris. And you know I ..........like....... :Love:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 27, 2018, 08:11:53 PM
The bearing caps were cut from the waste stock from notching the track frame ends, milled to size and the sides notched in and drilled for the bolts. I'll round the tops later on.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/w3ydo8rc7/IMG_3100.jpg)
With the mill vise still centered front to back from drilling the caps, drilled/tapped matching holes in the track frames.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/f3fhfktqf/IMG_3101.jpg)
With the caps bolted in place,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/cm3q8b247/IMG_3102.jpg)
drilled for the axles - the holes are large enough to take a thin bronze bearing
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fg6vlrjpz/IMG_3103.jpg)
Then marked out the positions of the sides, gussets, and bosses in prep for milling the recessed field areas, like was done on the rear tracks. I was careful to mark out two left and two right plates, still goofed and had half a third right one before I caught it. Fortunately, a little alcohol erases the ink, so no metal wasted - this is why I like to mark out the outlines before cutting, even though they lines are just a guide to roughing in and not a final position.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/v1o75q3dz/IMG_3104.jpg)
According to the tracking info, the steel bar for the track wheels should be here tomorrow afternoon. I think I will finish up these plates before starting on the wheels....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 28, 2018, 12:56:35 AM
Damn Dog just catching up again on this very impressive venture of yours. All I can say is do you every sleep? Just pure raw talent the way you go about fabricating those parts. The details you put into your parts add that much more to the realistic look of the machine. Outstanding craftsmenship Chris. And you know I ..........like....... :Love:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Hi Don!
I am getting plenty of sleep, though maybe I am pushing the shop elves too hard, they are starting to look like worn out Minions!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wfphbl8jr/Image8.jpg)
 :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 28, 2018, 01:02:10 AM
One more session in the shop this evening, got a start nibbling out the inside recesses in the front track frames. As with the rear ones, am using some little bushings to bolt the part to the rotary table with the bosses centered (have started accumulating a collection of different sized ones). Got the first pair of recesses in the two right side plates

(https://s5.postimg.cc/v0nwmtx5z/IMG_3105.jpg)
as well as the two left side ones (by sides, I mean within a track pair). In this photo, the first left side plate is ready for milling around the second boss.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/r4akqu4gn/IMG_3106.jpg)
That is about all I can do in one session before starting to lose concentration, more on that one tomorrow (knowing when to take breaks is a very important thing!).
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 28, 2018, 08:37:46 PM
More nibbling away at the recesses in the track frames. Each of the holes was centered on the tooling plate on the rotary table, the large ones with a bushing plate turned to fit:

(https://s5.postimg.cc/wqkfasx8n/IMG_3109.jpg)

The small ones, too small for the bolt, were centered in by eye onto the bolt hole and held with two hold downs:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5fz42w21j/IMG_3110.jpg)
Then started cutting in around the edges, started with the horizontal/vertical ones

(https://s5.postimg.cc/nvjl0avlj/IMG_3111.jpg)
and finishing up with the angled ones. There are still areas in the field to be removed on this plate, will switch to a larger cutter for those areas.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/hulw3819j/IMG_3112.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: J.L. on June 28, 2018, 09:16:34 PM
Hi Chris,

Chris, you are a master at the use of the rotary table. You anticipate curves and are able to blend them in with straight runs with ease.

Inspiring.

John
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on June 28, 2018, 10:10:00 PM
I'm very happy to see all the progress.
It's that much sooner to the Stanley.

(Yes...I saw that other thread.)  ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 29, 2018, 12:56:12 AM
Thanks guys!


Zee, be glad (I am) that they didn't use the fifth steam engine on the rear tracks, would be that much longer to StanleyTime!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on June 29, 2018, 01:23:20 AM
I realized I may have implied something I didn't.
I don't mean to get past the Marion 91 Steam Shovel for the Stanley.
This is a great build.
All I meant is that you promised (hee hee) to do the Stanley next.  ;D

Understanding that such promises in a hobby like this are subject to change due to interesting things (aka squirrels or 'life') that cross our path.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 29, 2018, 01:28:54 AM
I realized I may have implied something I didn't.
I don't mean to get past the Marion 91 Steam Shovel for the Stanley.
This is a great build.
All I meant is that you promised (hee hee) to do the Stanley next.  ;D

Understanding that such promises in a hobby like this are subject to change due to interesting things (aka squirrels or 'life') that cross our path.


You've noticed that I can be like that dog... Oooh, squirrel!




Um, what was I saying?


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on June 29, 2018, 04:57:10 PM
Um, what was I saying?
Not sure about any of the rest of the conversation, but I definitely heard something about a squirrel.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 29, 2018, 05:08:39 PM
Um, what was I saying?
Not sure about any of the rest of the conversation, but I definitely heard something about a squirrel.

Don
There was another funny commercial, guy was teaching his dog to drive his pickup truck, dog steers off the road towards the pond as the guy yells "No duck!"
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 29, 2018, 11:31:49 PM
Today I got the rest of the field areas carved out of the track frames:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qnuvl541j/IMG_3114.jpg)
And then moved on to the last area at the front ends, where the sliding axle block holder is. Started out by milling out the rectangular sections (back in the mill vise, these cuts are all parallel to the sides of the tracks) where the slider will go:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qb3hez17b/IMG_3115.jpg)
and then got out the little slot cutter, have started adding the retainer slots for the sliding blocks, just like on the rear track frames:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/eyqvx6ksn/IMG_3116.jpg)
Couple more of the lower slots to do, then another set up at the top of the recesses. After that, will start shaping the recesses at the top/bottom edges, then do the top outline for the frames, which are still out to the full width of the stock bar.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on June 30, 2018, 12:12:38 AM
I just had an epiphany...all this talk about shop elves, gnomes...etc....
I am now convinced that Chris, himself, is a shop gnome (as opposed to elf).
Think about it. All the symptoms are there.
I'm not saying he was always one. I'm thinking it's like the Borg system. He's been assimilated.

Other than shop advice and help...he cannot be trusted.

His cookie recipe is okay too...but trust nothing else.

So be careful. Telling him anything will be distributed, widely, amongst all our shop elves.

 :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 30, 2018, 12:24:20 AM
I just had an epiphany...all this talk about shop elves, gnomes...etc....
I am now convinced that Chris, himself, is a shop gnome (as opposed to elf).
Think about it. All the symptoms are there.
I'm not saying he was always one. I'm thinking it's like the Borg system. He's been assimilated.

Other than shop advice and help...he cannot be trusted.

His cookie recipe is okay too...but trust nothing else.

So be careful. Telling him anything will be distributed, widely, amongst all our shop elves.

 :lolb:


 :ROFL:


Took you long enough,  remember my story about working for the big guy up North?  All true...


 :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 30, 2018, 01:12:36 AM
Go the rest of the lower, and the upper slots cut for the adjustable axle blocks:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/985awswx3/IMG_3117.jpg)
and drilled the holes for the adjusting rods:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/61ard6k6v/IMG_3118.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on June 30, 2018, 02:37:10 AM
It never ceases to amaze me how you manage to accurately machine large components on relatively small tooling

Re: "It never ceases to amaze me"...quite true.
Re: "The rest of it"...that's the elves. Don't give Chris too much credit.  :Lol: By his own admission.


Yeah, um, well, I figured out how to turn evil shop gnomes into helpful shop elves, so I can take credit for the work. Yeah, thats it!


 :Lol:

That's not the story my elves tell me, something about a labor dispute over creativity with the Big Guy up North, and you offering chocolate chip cookies with every break. Mine want Short Bread ones.
Gerald
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 30, 2018, 02:57:07 AM
It never ceases to amaze me how you manage to accurately machine large components on relatively small tooling

Re: "It never ceases to amaze me"...quite true.
Re: "The rest of it"...that's the elves. Don't give Chris too much credit.  :Lol: By his own admission.


Yeah, um, well, I figured out how to turn evil shop gnomes into helpful shop elves, so I can take credit for the work. Yeah, thats it!


 :Lol:

That's not the story my elves tell me, something about a labor dispute over creativity with the Big Guy up North, and you offering chocolate chip cookies with every break. Mine want Short Bread ones.
Gerald
Yeah, well, it started out as a, um, heated discussion over lunch about whether to make real steam engines with proper boilers or those silly little wind up ducks. Soon, there was a food fight, things were said, elves flinging plates and cups, reindeer getting hit in the nose (sorry Rudy, but it at least made you famous).... Long story short, bunch of us were fired (or quit, thats my story and I'm sticking to it), came south and started building steam engines! And baking mint chocolate chip cookies....
 :atcomputer:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on June 30, 2018, 12:16:28 PM
Something for Chris:

https://atlanta.craigslist.org/atl/tls/d/sherline-cnc-milling-machine/6630704612.html
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 30, 2018, 12:22:48 PM
Something for Chris:

https://atlanta.craigslist.org/atl/tls/d/sherline-cnc-milling-machine/6630704612.html (https://atlanta.craigslist.org/atl/tls/d/sherline-cnc-milling-machine/6630704612.html)
Nice looking machine, but I don't really want to go CNC, still prefer doing things by hand. Thanks anyway!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on June 30, 2018, 08:53:33 PM
Chris, your progress is phenominal!  I check this post daily and it seems there is always something new.  Bet you have held your breath numerous times cutting on those massive pieces of brass  ;)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 30, 2018, 09:36:51 PM
Chris, your progress is phenominal!  I check this post daily and it seems there is always something new.  Bet you have held your breath numerous times cutting on those massive pieces of brass  ;)
Oh yes, especially when I get down to the last couple of operations, and dread wrecking the part and having to start over. I got lucky on the rear track frames, that I was able to plug and redrill the goofed axle holes.

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 30, 2018, 09:48:41 PM
With the main field recesses done, time to shape the outside profile before cutting in the forward two recesses. That way I can make the width of the wall even, and shape it to the outside. The outside shape is going to be roughed in at the front, and rounded fair on the belt sander.
First, I sawed off the strip along the top edge to get it close to the final height. That strip is thick enough to use for things like bearing caps later on. Then, milled the surface down to dimension. There is a step up towards the front end, I think that is there to help if feed onto the front wheel smoothly, not sure why it was needed but thats the way the originals are.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/y3kyf1553/IMG_3119.jpg)
The step was then angled off:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/megyr1yqv/IMG_3121.jpg)
The back corner was chewed off (that will be faired on the sander also), and then milled the angle up to the rear axle mount:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wbrzk4e2f/IMG_3122.jpg)
The bottom edge is not a straight line, it has protrusions around the lower axle holes, so the areas around them was taken off - the steps will be rounded off with a file.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/vm977rsyf/IMG_3123.jpg)
And then the bulk of the material at the front end was milled off. I am going to make a template and take it to final shape on the sander - those front areas dont have a single radius curve, it is more like a spline curve instead. Probably an artifact of them making the wood core patterns and shaping them with a hand plane or bandsaw. Yet another factory shop full of awesome casting patterns lost to history....
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fb93bgo6f/IMG_3124.jpg)
That gets things pretty close to done on these frames - some more shaping on the front, two more recesses there, then can shave off a layer to get them to final thickness. These have a set of three spacer blocks on the inside rather than the one large one that the rear tracks have.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 01, 2018, 12:38:46 AM
Got the outer corners of the front track frames sanded fair, and marked out the recesses for the front area:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/71x7x7ms7/IMG_3127.jpg)
Also started squaring up the inside corners on the rear frames that were left round from the end mill. The mill was 1/8" diameter, a small tapered diamond coated dental but makes short work of squaring back those corners - did not take them all the way down the inside, blended it about halfway down to give it a better look from the outside. The rear frame on the left has had the corners done, the front frame on the right has not, you can see the difference it makes, especially around the larger boss arcs.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/g9pgdwm4n/IMG_3126.jpg)
After the front frames have the last recesses made, and they are taken to final thickness, I will do the same on those.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on July 01, 2018, 03:07:32 AM
Something for Chris:

https://atlanta.craigslist.org/atl/tls/d/sherline-cnc-milling-machine/6630704612.html (https://atlanta.craigslist.org/atl/tls/d/sherline-cnc-milling-machine/6630704612.html)
Nice looking machine, but I don't really want to go CNC, still prefer doing things by hand. Thanks anyway!
 :cheers:
[/quote)

What Chris does my hand us mere mortals have to rely on CNC.

Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 01, 2018, 04:12:37 AM
Something for Chris:

https://atlanta.craigslist.org/atl/tls/d/sherline-cnc-milling-machine/6630704612.html (https://atlanta.craigslist.org/atl/tls/d/sherline-cnc-milling-machine/6630704612.html)
Nice looking machine, but I don't really want to go CNC, still prefer doing things by hand. Thanks anyway!
 :cheers:
[/quote]

What Chris does my hand us mere mortals have to rely on CNC.

Gerald.

And to think I was never any good with an Etcha Sketch... Hmm, any of you ever hook up one of those to a cnc controller?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dan Rowe on July 01, 2018, 02:50:03 PM
Chris,
I could never get an Etch a Sketch to track the same path more than once. You do not have that problem with a Sherline mill.

Could you give us a bit of a tutorial of just what you are doing with the dials to make stuff that looks like it was done CNC? 

Are you using stops or just the hand wheel divisions?

Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on July 01, 2018, 04:12:00 PM
Seems to me Chris has two options.  Mill until the cut just touches the lines drawn on the work, but since he says these are not precise trhe second option is likely.  He has everything in CAD so the X-Y start point of a curve is known and can be arrived at via handwheel.  Then the angle of the cut is known from CAD and can be attained by the degree markings on the rotary table.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 01, 2018, 04:28:34 PM
Not using stops, other than handwheel markings. I start by roughing out the ipening, then come back with light cuts, measuring the wall thickness to determine how much farther on final cut. The arcs around the bosses were done same way, rough arc farther out, then couple of finish passes down to size. The arcs were done by turning the rotab, except for the last couple at the front which were not circular, those were two handed slow handwheel turns, just by eye. Those are not as accurate, but close enough to look right.
The angled straight were done by turning the rotab till the segment was lined up with the mill table axis, then doing a straight in and out pass.
Blending in the arcs to straights is just by eye, till the lines are tangent. Probably not cnc precise, but there is no mating part like in a cylinder, so within a elves hair is close enough!


Hope that helps, no super tricks, just using rotab to full advantage and some mk I nearsighted eyeballs. Kvom, nothing that technical, your method would require known index points, my way is much faster and close enough. Guess its just the sculptor in me showing through.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 01, 2018, 08:21:27 PM
Got the front recesses milled out. Then milled the surface down to the final thickness of the part (could have done this first, but this way only jhad small areas to trace out rather than the whole surface).

(https://s5.postimg.cc/tnbfj41if/IMG_3128.jpg)
Then did some sanding, filing of the bottom axle protrusions, and squared up the corners with the little dental air tool. Last was to mill the slots next to the large axle hole, and took the bearing caps off to round them. I think that completes the shaping on these parts, still need to make the front axle sliders, and the spacer blocks that hold the pairs together. With all this freshly milled brass, hard to see details - will all show up better in a couple days after a spritz of paint.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/q3phtb6if/IMG_3129.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on July 01, 2018, 08:36:56 PM
Something for Chris:

https://atlanta.craigslist.org/atl/tls/d/sherline-cnc-milling-machine/6630704612.html (https://atlanta.craigslist.org/atl/tls/d/sherline-cnc-milling-machine/6630704612.html)
Nice looking machine, but I don't really want to go CNC, still prefer doing things by hand. Thanks anyway!
 :cheers:
[/quote]

What Chris does my hand us mere mortals have to rely on CNC.

Gerald.

And to think I was never any good with an Etcha Sketch... Hmm, any of you ever hook up one of those to a cnc controller?

I helped hock up a CNC router once, gantry style lots of sawdust. Helped one fellow straighten out the G-Code for milling an enclosure for one. I have acquired a Sherline CNC Mill, has the stepper motors mounted, but missing the headstock, and computer control. I have picked up an Arduino CNC board to run it, but haven't got Round Tuit yet.

Gerald.


Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 01, 2018, 09:05:01 PM
Something for Chris:

https://atlanta.craigslist.org/atl/tls/d/sherline-cnc-milling-machine/6630704612.html (https://atlanta.craigslist.org/atl/tls/d/sherline-cnc-milling-machine/6630704612.html)
Nice looking machine, but I don't really want to go CNC, still prefer doing things by hand. Thanks anyway!
 :cheers:
[/quote]

What Chris does my hand us mere mortals have to rely on CNC.

Gerald.

And to think I was never any good with an Etcha Sketch... Hmm, any of you ever hook up one of those to a cnc controller?

I helped hock up a CNC router once, gantry style lots of sawdust. Helped one fellow straighten out the G-Code for milling an enclosure for one. I have acquired a Sherline CNC Mill, has the stepper motors mounted, but missing the headstock, and computer control. I have picked up an Arduino CNC board to run it, but haven't got Round Tuit yet.

Gerald.


I like to keep several RoundTuits on long backorder!   :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: mklotz on July 01, 2018, 09:54:49 PM
Round Tuits can be made by turning down chances to get things square(d) away.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 01, 2018, 11:12:39 PM
Round Tuits can be made by turning down chances to get things square(d) away.
:ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 02, 2018, 12:02:23 AM
Round Tuits can be made by turning down chances to get things square(d) away.

Now that's a quote that needs to be in the books.  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 02, 2018, 12:14:23 AM
Well, still too hot and muggy to go outside this evening, so I got Round Tu(it) making up the spacer blocks for the front track frames. Simple rectangular blocks either side of the large center axle, then another flat plate at the top. Drilled/tapped bolt holes in the blocks and frames, and got the first set assembled to see how it looks. Here it is on the front of the main frame:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8f2cezp5j/IMG_3130.jpg)
Very cool to see it coming together!

Higher view showing the blocks inside:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fv1m0skkn/IMG_3131.jpg)
and with the top plate in place - got to go back to the 3D model and check, looks like it might interfere with the sprocket wheels. At least have to check its fore/aft position before drilling for some retaining pins for it.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/45xmcu1br/IMG_3132.jpg)
The three bottom wheels are in place, you can just see the ends of thier axles in the small bottom holes, and they are holding the frames up in the air.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 02, 2018, 12:20:34 AM
Yup - that top plate is a little too long! Missed that in the CAD view, easy fix though, just make some virtual swarf on the computer, and some real swarf in the shop!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on July 02, 2018, 01:47:13 AM
I have a round wooden token that “Round Tuit “ was stamped into. It was my grandfathers and I distinctly remember him carrying it and having fun with it. RE: Chris’ CNC abilities; face it folks: he’s a gifted carver. It doesn’t matter the medium, he was blessed to be able to “remove what ain’t supposed to be there” and leave what is  :old:

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 02, 2018, 01:55:14 AM
I have a round wooden token that “Round Tuit “ was stamped into. It was my grandfathers and I distinctly remember him carrying it and having fun with it. RE: Chris’ CNC abilities; face it folks: he’s a gifted carver. It doesn’t matter the medium, he was blessed to be able to “remove what ain’t supposed to be there” and leave what is  :old:

Cletus
Thanks Cletus!  I have been carving in wood and stone for decades more than I have been machining, guess it shows! 
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on July 02, 2018, 07:43:39 AM
Hang about! Zee did you notice the elf laying down on the job?

Chris what’s going on? You been working them to hard & they are passing out in the heat from over work?

Oh the parts are a master class in metal bashing.....errr carving!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 02, 2018, 01:25:48 PM
Huh. Didn't see that lazy... elf... back there. Too many cookies, and ha fell off the boom. Sigh. Now I have to fill out an OSHA report...
 :facepalm:

And its definitely another hot day, 8am and its already over 80 degrees and climbing fast, heading to upper 90s again.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: mklotz on July 02, 2018, 06:15:09 PM
Round Tuits can be made by turning down chances to get things square(d) away.

Now that's a quote that needs to be in the books.  :ThumbsUp:

Yeah, I thought it was a nice mash-up of shop double entendres.  In retrospect, changing 'chances' to 'requests' might make it a touch better.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 02, 2018, 06:22:49 PM
Round Tuits can be made by turning down chances to get things square(d) away.

Now that's a quote that needs to be in the books.  :ThumbsUp:

Yeah, I thought it was a nice mash-up of shop double entendres.  In retrospect, changing 'chances' to 'requests' might make it a touch better.
Would a half-off sale on Round Tuits be a Square Deal?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 02, 2018, 06:52:13 PM
Round Tuits can be made by turning down chances to get things square(d) away.

Now that's a quote that needs to be in the books.  :ThumbsUp:

Yeah, I thought it was a nice mash-up of shop double entendres.  In retrospect, changing 'chances' to 'requests' might make it a touch better.
Would a half-off sale on Round Tuits be a Square Deal?

 :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 02, 2018, 09:53:52 PM
Got the top plates drilled/tapped for a couple of small screws to hold them in place, and also milled up the sliding blocks for the front axles, just like in the rear track frames previously. Just need to drill for the axles and the adjusting rods....
(https://s5.postimg.cc/scv8l0tlz/IMG_3134.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 03, 2018, 05:35:03 PM
Holes drilled in the slider blocks, adjusting rods made just like on the rear tracks, and all is assembled (till the wheels are made, then have to disassemble/reassemble again to get the front wheels in). Here are some pics, starting with the bottom view of the front track frames (you will notice that the rear axle is loose in the hole, still need to turn up the bornze sleeve bearing for those) :

(https://s5.postimg.cc/n0tvanfiv/IMG_3136.jpg)

Top view of the front track frames:

(https://s5.postimg.cc/pi5mhx753/IMG_3137.jpg)

And a family shot of the front and rear track frames so far:

(https://s5.postimg.cc/6ptrebvbb/IMG_3135.jpg)

I think that calls for a cookie and a nap on the front porch!
After the bearing sleeves, I think the next parts will be wheels for the front of the front tracks and both ends of the rear tracks - those 6 are identical, then the 2 rear drive wheels for the front tracks, which have the drive lugs around the rim. I am going to try and make each wheel up as a 2-piece assembly so I can make them hollow like the originals.
Here is what the wheels will look like, front:

(https://s5.postimg.cc/lzy7yyayv/Front_wheel.jpg)

and rear:

 (https://s5.postimg.cc/qylqdhmhj/Rear_wheel.jpg)

After the wheels, the next mbig thing is figuring out how the make the track segments, toying with whether to make them as two sections or one, they are pretty complex, and I need 76 of them...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/y7m4hswd3/Track_Assemblies_v21c.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: RonGinger on July 03, 2018, 06:26:17 PM
That just cries out to b investment cast. Making a rigid mold to inject the wax will be realy tricky, but very satisfying.

ron
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: scc on July 03, 2018, 07:23:03 PM
Chris, When I look at projects like yours and several others on this forum I just sigh. My admiration for the skill levels (and rate of progress!) is boundless :praise2:  I sometimes wander into my shed and sigh again.  Then I remember that I am enjoying this hobby of ours rather a lot and move on with my projects at my pace  with a big grin on my face :cheers: Thanks for the inspiration.                   By the way I love the "non-cnc"             Best Wishes              Terry
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 03, 2018, 07:33:32 PM
Chris, When I look at projects like yours and several others on this forum I just sigh. My admiration for the skill levels (and rate of progress!) is boundless :praise2:  I sometimes wander into my shed and sigh again.  Then I remember that I am enjoying this hobby of ours rather a lot and move on with my projects at my pace  with a big grin on my face :cheers: Thanks for the inspiration.                   By the way I love the "non-cnc"             Best Wishes              Terry
Thanks very much Terry!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 03, 2018, 07:46:49 PM
That just cries out to b investment cast. Making a rigid mold to inject the wax will be realy tricky, but very satisfying.

ron
That would probably be a great way to go, if I had any experience and/or equipment for casting, and all the special allowances that have to be made for shrinkage, flow, etc that I know little or nothing about. These flanges are pretty small too, the entire track segment is not quite 1-1/2" at the longest point. Probably would be expensive to get all those made, with spares?
Assuming that I will be milling them, I have spent the afternoon playing around on a copy of the 3D model of it. If I split the track into top and bottom halves, and close up a few of the internal openings, I get the following, which still will look right from the outside, and function the same:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/clsaf4kh3/Combined.jpg)
The top half would look like this from the top:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/t9jshm7iv/Top2.jpg)
and from underneath:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/jp05uqxmf/Top1.jpg)
and the bottom half would look like this from top
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3qrg4mb47/Bottom2.jpg)
and bottom
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qfgn45xmv/Bottom1.jpg)
The top is pretty straighforward, easily milled using a notched finger clamp fixture like I used on the Lombard. The quarter-round overhang could be done with a ball end mill, the rest with a normal mill bit.

The bottom is obviously more complex, I was wondering how to round the hinge fingers till I realized they could be done with a rounding over bit, the outside is 1/4" diameter. The fingers are more than 1/8" apart, so the slots could be milled in. A holding jig would absolutely be required to replicate that many parts, but it could be done in a series of basic milling moves.

Once all the parts were milled, they could be screwed and/or silver soldered together to form the complete track segment. As soon as I saw the real ones up close in person, my first reaction was "well, that will be fun to do", along with some head shaking...!
Well, thats the current thought. Wonder how many more times it will change along the way...
 :noidea:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 03, 2018, 08:16:17 PM
As soon as I saw the real ones up close in person, my first reaction was "well, that will be fun to do", along with some head shaking...!

That was certainly my reaction just seeing the drawings. I suspect I'm not the only one.  :o
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: mklotz on July 03, 2018, 09:01:05 PM
Something for Chris:

https://atlanta.craigslist.org/atl/tls/d/sherline-cnc-milling-machine/6630704612.html (https://atlanta.craigslist.org/atl/tls/d/sherline-cnc-milling-machine/6630704612.html)
Nice looking machine, but I don't really want to go CNC, still prefer doing things by hand. Thanks anyway!

Hmmm, non-CNC; in my shop, that's called HAM - Human Aided Machining
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 03, 2018, 09:30:45 PM
Something for Chris:

https://atlanta.craigslist.org/atl/tls/d/sherline-cnc-milling-machine/6630704612.html (https://atlanta.craigslist.org/atl/tls/d/sherline-cnc-milling-machine/6630704612.html)
Nice looking machine, but I don't really want to go CNC, still prefer doing things by hand. Thanks anyway!

Hmmm, non-CNC; in my shop, that's called HAM - Human Aided Machining
Count Number Cranks? (not counting me as a crank, that is just assumed)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 03, 2018, 09:35:07 PM
Got the rear axle bearings turned, simple tube drilled/reamed//turned out of some bronze bearing stock. Test assembled the front track frames on the main frame, the fore-elf is awake again and helping...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3x9ql9707/IMG_3140.jpg)
The part I hadn't realized is that this model barely fits in the width (18") of the benchtop! The tracks will be overhanging it a little, probably should put down a wider board to guard against bad elf-steering during tests...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/o38n6zl5z/IMG_3138.jpg)
The extra length of the rear axles are for the universal joints on the ends of the drive shafts to attach to, the rear wheels inside the tracks are the driven ones.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 03, 2018, 10:31:58 PM
You should fire that fore-elf. I don't see a smudge of work on him.

And look at his shirt pocket. Empty! (At least...so it appears.)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 03, 2018, 10:44:05 PM
You should fire that fore-elf. I don't see a smudge of work on him.

And look at his shirt pocket. Empty! (At least...so it appears.)
His hat must be hiding the pointy hairs!


Into the grease pit he gies!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on July 04, 2018, 03:18:17 AM
It seems to me that you could do the center section with just the fingers separately from rest.  Both halves would then be easier to machine.

Like your bottom section without the ribs on the sides.

Personally I'd probably do away with the details that won't be seen on the model, or else have them printed.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 04, 2018, 03:39:44 AM
It seems to me that you could do the center section with just the fingers separately from rest.  Both halves would then be easier to machine.

Like your bottom section without the ribs on the sides.

Personally I'd probably do away with the details that won't be seen on the model, or else have them printed.
You mean one piece with the hinge fingers, another with the side ribs? Hmmm. Could half lap them together maybe... Not sure if it would make it easier or harder to make...
 :thinking:


 The side fingers do show in the finished track. The angled protrusions on the bottom are key, the angled centers ride on the rim of the wheels for alignment, and the front and back edges engage the gaps in the drive sprockets for propulsion. I have eliminated the hollow undercuts, only other part that could be eliminated for non function is the side fingers, but they add a lot to the appearance. The top piece will be pretty straightforward a set of cuts, its the bottom that is complex.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 04, 2018, 06:40:13 PM
While the methods to make the track segments are percolating in the back of the brain, I am getting started on the idler wheels for them. There are 6 needed, then the 2 drive wheels. To get the procedures figured out, and make sure the 2-part wheels will work well, I decided to make up one wheel as a test before cutting all the blanks out, just in case. The first pair of blanks were cut from the longer bar of 2" diameter 303 stainless on the (fairly) new bandsaw, works out SO much easier (on me) than my old way of using a recip saw!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/y2q80tr5j/IMG_3141.jpg)
The two hockey pucks are different thickness, one side needs to be wider for the overlapping section since the outer join is not in the center. This will leave enough overlap so that there is room for a set of screws or pins through the 'tread' area.
Then, centered the wider one in the 4-jaw on the lathe, drilled/bored the axle hole (larger than the axle to leave room for the bronze bearing), and then bored the recess out (remember these wheels will be hollow).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/be1118ewn/IMG_3143.jpg)
Next step was to take the tread section to finished diameter, and take the overlap down as well. The overlap is 0.200 wide.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/5d3c45kkn/IMG_3144.jpg)
Then set up the compound slide, at a 70 degree angle, and took the center area back. The outside face will have an arc, the inside is just a straight conical face. I'll see how the thickness works out on this one, and can adjust the angle for the rest of the parts if needed.

EDIT: 70 was a little shallow, changed to 68 degrees after cutting the spoke windows, made the inside/outside more parallel looking.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/xpytumlqf/IMG_3145.jpg)
That completes the inner faces of this part, so I mounted up the other 'puck' and drilled/bored the center the same way, except the recess was taken out to match the diameter of the outside of the overlap on the first part, so they would nest together. The same angle cut was made to thin the walls just like the first part.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/oi6ldxu3r/IMG_3146.jpg)
Here are the two halves so far, test fit together:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/px862nnh3/IMG_3147.jpg)
Now, I can reverse the parts on the 4-jaw, holding inside the rims, and shape the curve on the outside faces. Since the rim and the axle were bored in the same setup, they will be concentric. The outer face will be as close to concentric as I can re-center the parts with the dial indicator.

Yes, this seems a long way to go to get the wheels hollow, but if I did not do this then the blanks would have had to have been turned on an arbor, since the outside faces have enough curve to them that the reversed jaws on the chuck could not have reached the center tread area in order to turn the second outer face. This way is going pretty quick, so it seems worth it to get the extra details in. The fact that they are hollow will be apparent when the spoke openings are cut in later on.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 04, 2018, 10:44:08 PM
Too hot by far to do anything outside today (again), so did a little more on the first wheel set. I trimmed the first one to thickness, then started doint the dome shape on the outside. It is curved from the edge of the axle hole down to the outside, but the last section near the rim is a constant 70 degrees, then it arcs up and into the center. So, the compound slide once again, roughed off the bulk of the material at 80 degrees, then started coming in a few degrees at a time and removing just material at the outer edge, stopping farther from the center each time. When I got near the final thickness at the rim, switch to 70 degrees and did a straight line .215" from the corner of the rim. Then back to 62 degrees and higher to finish the arc.

Hmmm.... that is clear as swarf, need a diagram:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/m0zfkawzb/Image23.jpg)

So, trimmed to thickness with Center cut at 90 degrees, made Cut 1 and 2 at progressively sharper angles, made the 70 degree rim cut so its outer edge made the rim the proper width, then made cut 4 at 62 degrees. Cuts 1 through 4 were then blended with a file.
And here is the finished part, pic taken on edge to show the curve and final angle:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/la6peq4yf/IMG_3148.jpg)

Now to repeat that on the other half, and it will be ready to cut the windows in the sides to form the spokes (not really spoke-y looking, but that is the general idea, the side holes are fairly small). Then I can make the bronze axle bearing, and assemble the parts into the wheel.
The wall thickness is a little high, will take more off the inside before assembling - wanted to sneak up on that to find the settings, will make the rest go quicker.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 05, 2018, 12:31:55 AM
Second half of the first wheel with the same profiling done as the first side:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9av77g1yf/IMG_3150.jpg)
Parts are just slid together for now, will not fasten permenantly until after the spoke windows are cut. When held together the little seam gap goes away.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/88l0owbfb/IMG_3151.jpg)
Going to take a little more off the insides, then cut the windows on the mill, probably do that tomorrow.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 05, 2018, 01:11:14 AM
Going to take a little more off the insides, then cut the windows on the mill, probably do that tomorrow.

"probably"?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 05, 2018, 01:18:56 AM
Going to take a little more off the insides, then cut the windows on the mill, probably do that tomorrow.

"probably"?
Absoposalutly possible. Or not. Got some other things to do too. Hard to say what shop time will be available.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 05, 2018, 06:16:16 PM
Turned out I got an hour or so in the shop around lunchtime, so worked out the positions and moves for making the spoke openings in the wheels (taking notes along the way so I can replicate it on the rest!). I was going to thin down the insides a bit more, but realized that the wheel wont hold in the reversed chuck jaws now that the outside is done, they taper too much. However, it looks like I can grip them with the inside of the jaws in the spoke openings, so I can make these two parts match the rest to be made.
So, set up the part in the 3-jaw on the rotary table, centered the rotary table under the headstock, zeroed the rotary table, and moved the mill table left by .4653 (I am putting the notes in here in case I lose the slip of paper, or the elves steal it again). With a 5/16" end mill cutter, plunge cut holes at 60 degree spacing - tried drilling, but the slope of the surface made it way to skate, even with a pilot drill first.
That formed the inner ends of the spoke windows. Then, moved the mill table another .150 left, moved it inwards .240", and rotated to 30 degrees on the rotary, and drilled another set of holes at 60 degree centers - this formed one of the side corners near the rim.

Moved the mill table out by .480" (undoing the original .240 in plus another .240 out), rotated to 330 degrees, and drilled the other outer corner holes at 60 degree centers.

This gave the following:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/eqvy1ynt3/IMG_3152.jpg)
Then switched to a smaller mill, and smoothed down the sides and across the ends.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/4gtj2q5nb/IMG_3153.jpg)
Here is the first wheel test fit in the rear track frame:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8py94wgmf/IMG_3154.jpg)
Still need to do the spokes on the other side, thin down the inside a bit more, and also make the axle bearings. And make 5 more idler wheels, and the two drive wheels. So, long way from done with these!
At least the procedure for making them worked well, no hiccups along the way, so I can start cutting down the discs for the other wheels from the long bar.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 05, 2018, 08:30:42 PM
Wow! Truly awesome Chris.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 05, 2018, 08:50:29 PM
Wow! Truly awesome Chris.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Thanks Zee - am very pleased with how they are looking.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on July 05, 2018, 09:26:14 PM
Dog, Dog......more exquisite Details to an awesome built. Damn Chris I love it man....   :Love:



 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on July 05, 2018, 09:26:48 PM
That is some pretty cool fabrication there, Chris!  Can't wait to see them all done : :popcorn:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on July 05, 2018, 09:28:55 PM
Beautiful work.

Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 06, 2018, 03:21:29 PM
Thanks guys!
Got some more done on the first wheel, with the side gripped through the spoke windows, turned the inside down a little thinner. The spokes are still fairly thick on the original, not surprising considering the huge wieght on them (100+ tons worth of machine).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/h50upj0iv/IMG_3155.jpg)
Another shot in place on one of the rear track frames:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/btly4tm5z/IMG_3156.jpg)
The metal-cutting bandsaw really paid for itself on this one, used it to cut the blanks for the rest of the wheels. It has an adjustable stop, so once I had the first cut of each size lined up the rest were quick to set. About 2 minutes per cut, a pile o wheel blanks quickly developed...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fd7vumwlj/IMG_3157.jpg)
Next up is to do a quick pass to trim them to thickness (saw is pretty repeatable and square, but I left them about .010  thick so I could clean up the saw marks), then will start turning them production line style using my setup notes from the first one. Most are just like the first, but two wheels will have a different outside rim shape since they will be the drive wheels on the front tracks, and engage the bottom lugs on the track segments. The inside shape and the way they fit together will be the same, but the outside shape and spoke windows are different, so those two will be finished up last. I may hold off finishing the outside of those two until the track segments are made, so I can match them to each other.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 06, 2018, 06:36:18 PM
Got the blanks trimmed to thickness with some light facing passes, ready to start boring out the insides. Here are the two stacks of parts, one .550 thick, the other .590 thick, for the two sides of the wheels.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/eb2apvl6f/IMG_3160.jpg)
Also, my castings for the Morrison and Marvin modelers vise arrived today, the surfaces on the castings are quite nice, much better than a lot of the castings I have seen that have very rough outsides. No flaws that I can see in them, hope its a fun project. Thanks to Dave for his posts on them - I had previously thought that they were too large for turning the main pieces on a Sherline, but it will fit nicely on the lathe. I rarely do kits from castings, this is one of the exceptions - even more fun that it will make a tool I can use in the shop. Um, lets see, will need the vise for work on the Marion and Stanley engines, so I have to work on it sooner, yeah, thats it... Might make a good thing to work on between long sessions making those track segments (all 76 of them).
Here are the castings as recieved, with a pen for scale:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/n6350e293/IMG_3158.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 07, 2018, 01:14:06 PM
Turned down the rims/initial bores on the rest of the outer wheel blanks:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6zka0knfb/IMG_3161.jpg)
Here is the stack so far:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dd9d3u013/IMG_3162.jpg)
And got started on the inner wheel blanks, which have the same outer diameter and center bore, but have a step to fit inside the outer blanks at the rim:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5kipbv1rr/IMG_3163.jpg)
One of those down, 6 more to go, then will start on angling in the inner faces on all 14 of them.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dave Otto on July 07, 2018, 06:33:29 PM
Hey Chris

When you get around to building your vise, it would be fun to see a build thread on it.

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 07, 2018, 06:37:45 PM
Hey Chris

When you get around to building your vise, it would be fun to see a build thread on it.

Dave
Will do! I figure I'll be basing it on yours, one thing I am wondering about is broaching the slot in the main base, don't have equipment for that, but looks like there are alternatives to using a regular broach and arbor press. Looking forward to seeing the rest of that thread too!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: J.L. on July 07, 2018, 09:01:40 PM
Hi Chris,

Above and beyond Chris. I wanted to ask you if you have had time to look into a heavy industrial table to carry the weight of the project. It would be nice to be able to rotate it with lockable wheels and stabilizers so that viewers can enjoy it from all sides.

Congratulations on having one of the most ambitious projects on the go.

You are enjoying its challenges with aplomb.

 I think you also enjoy the research.  ;)

Cheers...John
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 07, 2018, 10:01:54 PM
Hi John,


Have not looked into tables at all yet, though I will have to at some point soon as it is quickly getting heavy and awkward to lift. Fortunately for working on it, the workbench it is on is in the middle of the room do I can get at it from both sides (set it up that way originally when building ship models on it).


And yes, the research, both in the catalog/patent literature and in the field, is a lot of fun!


Chris
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 08, 2018, 01:49:03 AM
A few more sessions in the shop today, between naps, um, I mean reading, on the front porch, and the rest of the wheel halves are up to the same point, with the inner/outer/face of the rim and the center bore all done. Those surfaces are the only critical mating faces on the wheels so they were done in one chucking each - I had started out carefully aligning the blanks with the 4-jaw, then realized that if done to this stage in one chucking that the 3-jaw is plenty accurate enough, and much faster. Here are the parts so far, some nested together, some apart to show the insides:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xwi1dun5z/IMG_3165.jpg)
The widest parts at the outside of each is the size of the raw stock, that will be taken off when the outer faces are given thier dome shapes. The prototype first wheel is in the lower right of the photo. Two of these wheels will be the drive wheels, and have a different outside rim shape, but the insides are the same.
Next step is to put on the compound slide and do the angle cut on the inside of the spoke area in each blank. Since there are so many of these, I am production-lining the process, and minimizing the changes in the setup to speed things up...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 08, 2018, 08:01:19 PM
More wheeling about in the shop today, took all of the angled cuts on the insides of the rims to form the thickness of the spokes. On the half that fits inside the other, the angled section was taken right up to the inside of the rim.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4uvs52fwn/IMG_3166.jpg)
On the other half, the same depth of cut was taken, but that stopped short of the rim. Once the two halves are assembled, the rim of the first one will cover that flat portion left, and the spoke areas are the same thickness on both halves.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6moqzyjtz/IMG_3167.jpg)
The compound slide was removed, and I went through all the parts with the flat side out, taking the rest of the tread face down to size. On the 5 idler wheel parts (10 in all), also made a shallow pass 0.265" in from the flat side, to mark off where the edge of the tread will be. This will make it easy to line up the angled cuts later, so that they end in the proper place. For the parts for the drive wheels, I just flattened off the tread, did not make this extra shallow cut, since on those the tread face extends farther out and is notched to fit the track plates - that will be done later on, so I set those two sets of parts aside at this point.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/nn7n8n4l3/IMG_3168.jpg)
Here are all the parts for the rest of the idler wheels - you can just see the lines that delineate where the edges of the tread face will be. The extra line between them is the joint between the two halves.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/940i78qvr/IMG_3169.jpg)
So, time to start forming the outside of all the wheels. With the compound slide back on, and turned around so that the handwheel is at the front (otherwise the cutter is too far from the work), set it to 77 degrees and started cutting the angled area. This was taken down close to the axle hole, but not quite to it, since the corners between the angled flats will be eased with a file later on.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dd589f1uv/IMG_3170.jpg)
I will go through all 10 idler wheel parts (remember that 2 were done for the prototype wheel) and make this same cut, then reset for the next area - quicker to do it this way than to keep resetting angles and distances.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dave Otto on July 09, 2018, 12:58:25 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on July 09, 2018, 01:49:59 AM
Still with you Dog!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 09, 2018, 01:58:05 AM
Thanks guys!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on July 09, 2018, 08:40:20 AM
Chris,

Still eagerly following your (and the elves') progress   :cheers:

I notice in several pictures that you're using the lathe tool upside down and working behind the lathe centre. With your attention to detail and planning of the work I guess there is a good reason for this, but am wondering what it is. Apologies if you've mentioned it elsewhere and I've missed it. I imagine you would need all the gibs, etc. pretty tight to avoid chatter in this configuration? I am not familiar with the Sherline.

Mike.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 09, 2018, 01:35:41 PM
Chris,

Still eagerly following your (and the elves') progress   :cheers:

I notice in several pictures that you're using the lathe tool upside down and working behind the lathe centre. With your attention to detail and planning of the work I guess there is a good reason for this, but am wondering what it is. Apologies if you've mentioned it elsewhere and I've missed it. I imagine you would need all the gibs, etc. pretty tight to avoid chatter in this configuration? I am not familiar with the Sherline.

Mike.
Hi Mike, will pass on the kudos to the elves...   :Lol:


On the Sherline, the compound slide is not built in but is an accessory that bolts to the cross slide. They built it as a back side cutter, with the tool upside down, as you noticed. It works well, though the handwheel for it had to be small to clear the cross slide table, and there is not much finger room. I think they made it that way since it was an afterthought, not part of the original design, and there is not a lot of swing height to go around.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 09, 2018, 04:38:25 PM
With all the wheels having the first angle cut made to the center, the compound was swung over to 62 degrees and the outer rim taken back to the mark I made a couple steps back, which gave a reference for the side of this cut. The 62 degree cut was made from the rim, in for .214" to form the section that the tracks ride on.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mth9b4msn/IMG_3171.jpg)
This left a step in the outside, which is removed in the final cut at 70 degrees, starting at the inside edge of the 62 degree cut:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/i7l52s8zb/IMG_3172.jpg)
Lastly, the join between the first and third cuts was rounded off with a file as the part was turning in the lathe. Here is a side view of the first wheel with the last cut made on one half, not of the other.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/vbqpfgllj/IMG_3173.jpg)
So, today will make the last cut on the rest of the wheel halves, then I can tackle shaping the outside of the two drive wheels, and lastly mill out the spokes on all of them.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 09, 2018, 07:35:56 PM
After a restoring nap on the front porch, got the rest of the sides angled in on the idler wheels, then set up for the two drive wheels. These are the same overall dimensions, and inside shape, but they have a different shape down the sides and the center area is wider to allow them to be notched for engaging the track segments. To start, notched in the sides to delineate the center section:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/p39yz9apz/IMG_3174.jpg)
then did a pass at 84 degrees to slope the sides,
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rklq6j2c7/IMG_3175.jpg)
and then finished the curve into the notch at 50 degrees, followed by a little blending with a file:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/q5k5ht8yv/IMG_3176.jpg)
At this point all the wheels are shaped, except for notching the drive wheels and cutting the spokes in. Here are the parts so far, one of the idler wheels is opened up to show the inside, and the two drive wheels are the thicker looking ones on the left of the photo.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/e3orno7g7/IMG_3177.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 09, 2018, 09:29:21 PM
Well, Dumb Luck strikes again! (That was actually the name of my first boat, hence the capitals)

I was out near LeRoy today, and took the oportunity (sunny day, not too hot, top down on the car, good day for a drive) to swing by the Marion shovel and gawk (again). As usual, every time I look at it I spot something new in the mirad of tiny details. At first, it looked like the front tracks were taller overall than the rear ones, causing some panic since I already made the wheels, but after checking my photo archive with the measurements (photos have tape measure in them), turns out that it was just an optical delusion caused by the lighting, they are the same track segments and wheel dimensions.

However, the other thing I noticed for the first time was that the spoke openings on the rear idler wheels are all round, where on the front idler wheels they are the triangular ones that I cut on the prototype wheel last week. On the front, the drive wheels have round openings, idlers are triangular. On the rear, the idlers all have round openings. Kind of surprising, since it means they had two sets of moulds to make for the idlers. Might go back somehow to the way they originally designed the rear tracks to be driven as well, don't know.

Anyway, I caught that in time, was going to be drilling those holes in the next session in the shop!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on July 09, 2018, 09:52:25 PM
Chris--As usual, I am delighted and impressed by your work. I check a couple of times a day for any updates. Marvelous stuff you are doing.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 10, 2018, 12:06:38 AM
Thanks Brian, great to have you along!
 :cheers:

Just finished an experiment - just for gits and shiggles, I uploaded the design for the track segment to Shapeways to see what it would cost per part. As expected, the cost for 76 of them (what is needed for the model) is, um, gack, quite high!  For a detailed plastic version, about $10 apiece. For metal, runs from $20 for bronze infused steel (which they say not to use for mechanical parts) up to about $50 (apiece) for other metals like brass, bronze or aluminum. Lets see, $50 times 76, that would be $3800.... could buy a used car for less than that!   :o   Might as well spend the extra and get them in silver or gold...

I wonder how much to print all the parts for the entire model?  Gotta be in Warren Buffet territory!


So, sticking with my original plan and will make them myself, which is a lot more fun and satisfying anyway!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on July 10, 2018, 02:05:24 AM
Yeah gods! Still given ALL the brass you are ploughing thru.......

Did you look at the possibility of 3D prints for having them cast in steel, thinking cast iron wouldn’t last the distance?
The down side to that is we would miss out on the learning curve as you carve them!


Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 10, 2018, 02:41:14 AM
Yeah gods! Still given ALL the brass you are ploughing thru.......

Did you look at the possibility of 3D prints for having them cast in steel, thinking cast iron wouldn’t last the distance?
The down side to that is we would miss out on the learning curve as you carve them!


Cheers Kerrin
Well, I am going through as much if not more stainless steel, but these days they cost about the same.


That aside, can you explain more about getting them cast in cast iron? I have never done that, have no clue what is involved or where to have that done. I only looked at Shapeways, who dont do cast iron, sure there are many other sources, but I know nothing of how to go about that.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on July 10, 2018, 03:19:01 AM
The cheapest method of casting is probably spin casting.  Limited to low temp metals like pewter and tin.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 10, 2018, 04:31:10 AM
Chris is an elf. (He has admitted that).
Chris's elves work for cookies.
Therefore, Chris works for cookies.
Therefore therefore, Chris is cheap.

Simple transitive relation.

Same situation as...

Some people do stupid things.
Zee is a people.
Therefore Zee does some stupid things.

(Just threw that last bit in, in hopes of thwarting a comeback.  :D )

P.S. Replace 'Zee' with anyone's name.  :lolb:

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on July 10, 2018, 05:10:07 AM
Hi Chris,
 The Casting Mistress, aka Jo, can & likely hopefully will give you all the ins & outs. Basically you make a slightly oversized pattern, to allow for metal shrinkage for when it cools, of the object you wish to make. Have a lookes a Tugs areo engine & you will get the idea. This can then be cast in the material of your choice, my suggestion would be steel for the tracks, but happy to be corrected. There has been a couple of threads here on casting that can explain it far better than me!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jo on July 10, 2018, 05:17:20 AM
Yes each individual pattern would need to have shrinkage allowance (correct for the chosen material) but for a run of 75 bits you really want to make up a pair of boards with lots of the items on it and have them all cast at one pour.

The person to ask about that sort of pattern making is Graham (Alyn Foundry)

Jo
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jasonb on July 10, 2018, 07:36:37 AM
I would have thought with the detail needed on the tracks and not wanting to have to clean up 76 of the links that making a master, then silicon mould and casting waxes from that would be the way to go then they could be stuck to a tree and lost wax cast. Steel or stainless would be done no problem.

Have a look at Mike's (Vixens) thread about his lost wax castings and the m&M bench vice to see the casting video.

I should think there are similar companies to "Just castings" who Mike used in the US that could do it all for you or just the casting from your own waxes.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jo on July 10, 2018, 07:37:29 AM
I think it is the cost that is the problem  ::)

Jo
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jasonb on July 10, 2018, 07:48:30 AM
But you should be able to get quite a few in a flask which will help with costs, or if done like the bench vice you don't need to worry about a flask.

Best to get a quote for the whole lot not multipy the individual cast by 76
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: RonGinger on July 10, 2018, 02:44:20 PM
I think Investment casting is the only way. You get your master 3D printed by Shapeways for a few $. Then you make a rubber mold from that part. The rubber is used to inject wax to make wax copies of the parts. These can be sprued up to a wax stick so that 20 to maybe even 50 can be cast at  one shot.

I would not worry much about shrink allowance- its measured in thous per foot so for the size parts you are making It could be ignored. But it would be easy enough to just have the part printed 1% or so oversize.

I used to work on a lot of sail part (thimbles, grommets etc) that were cast in Silicon Bronze. Each of the parts were much bigger than your track, and most only cost a couple dollars each.

The guy I used has retired and closed, but there are several others around.  I have all the equipment to do this, and have tried a couple pours of brass with low luck. If you want to try this come on out to Maine and in a couple days we should be able to make a bunch of brass parts.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 10, 2018, 03:52:09 PM
Lots of options, sounds like!


I have the materials for making silicone molds, use it for boat model hulls, but have never done wax or other castings. Given the lack of knowledge and equipment for anything like that, the number of extras needed to allow for reject casts of a very intricate part, plus the cost of hiring someone to do it, and having to mill castings to finish them, possibly, and the fact that I have bar stock for more than half the parts already, seems like it might be better, cheaper, and more fun to make them myself. On the Lombard, a simple fixture made milling those tracks go well, and they went pretty quickly. These are more complex, but the same methods will work. I think. We'll see!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 10, 2018, 05:05:33 PM
While continuing to ponder the best way to make the track segments, I am making the rest of the cuts in the wheel halves. As I mentioned yesterday, I got lucky and spotted the fact that the rear track wheels had all round holes, rather than the triangular ones in the front idler wheels. So, made up one more set with the triangular holes and have started drilling the round holes in the rest of the idlers. These are being done as a plunge cut with a 1/4" end mill, since even with a pilot hole a drill bit wants to migrate downhill on the slope of the wheels.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6tpvjiaxj/IMG_3178.jpg)
Parts so far, will start on the last three wheels after lunch:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/yh2kxm3tz/IMG_3179.jpg)
Once the rest of those holes is drilled, I can start on the bronze bearings and then probably am ready for some paint on the track frames and wheels...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 10, 2018, 05:39:43 PM
The wheels are looking great.  :ThumbsUp:

I'm looking forward to the track work.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 10, 2018, 07:27:42 PM
Thanks Zee!  Track work should begin in a day or two, with setting up the holding jig.

This afternoon I finished drilling the holes in the wheel sides, here is the collection, with a couple open to show the insides:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/b98aokkp3/IMG_3181.jpg)
Next is the bearings, and getting the drive wheels fitted to the axles. For the idler wheels, since they will not have much twisting force on them I think soft solder (Tix) will be plenty to hold the halves. The drive wheels will be either silver soldered, or maybe just pinned and loctited.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on July 10, 2018, 07:43:47 PM
Man those wheels look like “billet pulleys” that are used on all of today’s hot rod engines. On the track segments: could one machine a “length of them” and then have them lazer cut to separate? Might ease some on the setups.

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 10, 2018, 08:21:04 PM
Man those wheels look like “billet pulleys” that are used on all of today’s hot rod engines. On the track segments: could one machine a “length of them” and then have them lazer cut to separate? Might ease some on the setups.

Cletus
Interesting - might work on the top cap, but the bottom piece has stuff sticking out on all four sides. I am thinking I can use a similar finger-plate style jig like I used on the Lombard, need to do some noodling on that in Fusion to make sure, and to figure out the order to do things in. The parts are large enough (1.5" x 1" x 3/8") that holding should be okay.

One thing I just realized is that 1/8" radius corner-rounding cutters don't come in 3/8" shank end mills (that I have found anyway), so I need a 1/2" shank end mill holder. Fortunately, I have a tool holder blank that I bought years ago (from A2Z I think, when they were still around?) that is threaded for the Sherline headstock, and has an uncut long shank that I can easily make a holder from, just need to bore it and put in a grub screw. Got some end mills on order, want a couple spares for the small ones if cutting this many parts out of steel.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 10, 2018, 11:08:40 PM
Made up the bearing inserts for the idler wheels - these are just bearing bronze, drilled and turned to size, will be soldered in to the wheels. The drive wheels will have axles made to fit, those ride in bronze bearings out on the frames.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/r02k9al6f/IMG_3182.jpg)
Whole set:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mqxu74pmv/IMG_3183.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on July 10, 2018, 11:27:45 PM
Hi Chris,

Just a thought about how to hold the Bushing in place and also be able to remove it at some time. Could drill a hole where the arrow is and install a Drift Pin or drill and tap to install a Buttonhead Screw.

Not sure if this would work for you and if it would be any easier or better.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 10, 2018, 11:49:05 PM
Hi Chris,

Just a thought about how to hold the Bushing in place and also be able to remove it at some time. Could drill a hole where the arrow is and install a Drift Pin or drill and tap to install a Buttonhead Screw.

Not sure if this would work for you and if it would be any easier or better.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Neat, it would be like a mini keyway. Not sure if the idler wheels would really need more than some blue loctite, but that would be a good way to set the axles on the drive wheels, would be steel on both parts for those so less chance of the drill pulling into softer metal. Thanks!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gary.a.ayres on July 10, 2018, 11:54:19 PM
Made up the bearing inserts for the idler wheels - these are just bearing bronze, drilled and turned to size, will be soldered in to the wheels

These are beautiful!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on July 11, 2018, 03:12:40 AM
Wow Chris, you need to check this thread daily or you quickly fall behind.  Beautiful work!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 11, 2018, 03:26:32 AM
Thanks guys!


Probably have some paint on tomorrow.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on July 11, 2018, 04:46:48 AM
Why not use 95-5 solder to put those parts together?? Melts at 430*F and is 15,000 psi tensile... way more than is needed with the overlaps on those parts. Much easier and cleaner than silver braze...

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 11, 2018, 04:57:00 AM
Why not use 95-5 solder to put those parts together?? Melts at 430*F and is 15,000 psi tensile... way more than is needed with the overlaps on those parts. Much easier and cleaner than silver braze...

Pete
Well, no solder at all, as it turned out...  Earlier this evening I tried one with loctite retaining compound, worked great, very easy, so assembled the rest of the idlers with it. If needed its undoable with a little heat, but don't know why they would have to come apart. Tomorrow they can get some paint, along with the track frames.


The drive wheels still need to be milled at the rim to add the lugs to engage in the tracks, will do that later to tune them to the actual tracks.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 11, 2018, 06:18:07 PM
And some paint on the wheels and track frames - the two drive wheels are unpainted still since they still need some shaping.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3rqd1exdz/IMG_3184.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/dc9zob25j/IMG_3185.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ooml6334n/IMG_3186.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 12, 2018, 04:34:46 PM
This morning I got the wheels assembled onto the tracks, some fiddly operations on the adjustable front wheels of each set, there is a specific order everything has to be assembled to make it work since the adjusting rods go through the axles and bearing blocks as well as the frames.

Rear track holders in place, some touchup paint needed in places, probably will do that after the tracks are made due to the extra on/off sessions still needed.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/pa7f7ka8n/IMG_3192.jpg)

And the front assemblies are on too.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/btagop7mv/IMG_3194.jpg)

There was a quick Oh S...swarf! moment when the front ones went on, and the main frame was noticably higher in the rear rather than level. Some measurements, head scratching, then realized that I had put the rear cross axle holder on upside down...  :facepalm: Swapped that over, and it went back to level.   :slap:

So, here are some family pictures of all the parts of the model so far. Good time to sit back and admire them, munching on cookies with the elves...

(https://s5.postimg.cc/jm14golbr/IMG_3195.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/gf6kx2gbb/IMG_3196.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/d8c1dfo5j/IMG_3197.jpg)

The wheels are working well, it does roll on the table fairly easily - need to make some wheel chocks to keep the elves from driving it off the table!

Next up will be some time spent in Fusion to design up the holding jigs for making the track segments, then I can make up a test part or two to check it all out.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: scc on July 12, 2018, 05:17:26 PM
WOW :praise2: :praise2: :praise2: and more WOW
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on July 12, 2018, 05:21:08 PM
Chris, it is amazing how much work you have completed already.....

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 12, 2018, 05:22:24 PM
Thanks guys!  About 10 months down on this, maybe that many more to go... Lots of fun so far!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Roger B on July 12, 2018, 07:12:03 PM
Still happily following along/struggling to keep up  ::) Excellent  :praise2:  :praise2:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 12, 2018, 10:11:33 PM
Loved the 'where I am now' photos.
The lettering "MARION" on the legs is a really nice touch.  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on July 12, 2018, 10:36:56 PM
Thanks guys!  About 10 months down on this, maybe that many more to go... Lots of fun so far!

Sheesh... 10 months, it only takes a countess or a cow 9 months.  But then again this thing is going to be more the size of a baby elephant so we'll give you another 14 months but THAT's it.  Then we expect this baby to be born.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 13, 2018, 12:00:33 AM
Thanks guys!  About 10 months down on this, maybe that many more to go... Lots of fun so far!

Sheesh... 10 months, it only takes a countess or a cow 9 months.  But then again this thing is going to be more the size of a baby elephant so we'll give you another 14 months but THAT's it.  Then we expect this baby to be born.

I agree. Bribe hire some more elves. For whatever reason...they like your cookies. Or maybe you need to expand and try an additional recipe (but don't stop the cookies you're making.)

T makes a number of different cookies. I try not to tell her which ones are best.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 13, 2018, 12:52:30 AM
Thanks guys!  About 10 months down on this, maybe that many more to go... Lots of fun so far!

Sheesh... 10 months, it only takes a countess or a cow 9 months.  But then again this thing is going to be more the size of a baby elephant so we'll give you another 14 months but THAT's it.  Then we expect this baby to be born.

Don
Well, that time includes building a Green Sea Turtle submarine too, not sure how that fits on the scale with Countess Cow  :Jester: ,  need to google that one!   
 :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 13, 2018, 12:55:10 AM
Thanks guys!  About 10 months down on this, maybe that many more to go... Lots of fun so far!

Sheesh... 10 months, it only takes a countess or a cow 9 months.  But then again this thing is going to be more the size of a baby elephant so we'll give you another 14 months but THAT's it.  Then we expect this baby to be born.

I agree. Bribe hire some more elves. For whatever reason...they like your cookies. Or maybe you need to expand and try an additional recipe (but don't stop the cookies you're making.)

T makes a number of different cookies. I try not to tell her which ones are best.


The wife of one of the guys in the RC submarine group makes awesome cookies, and brings along mass quantities to the big meet in Carmel every year. Before the trip, everyone asks her if she is bringing cookies, then as an afterthought asks if she is bringing her husband too...   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jo on July 13, 2018, 06:00:46 AM
The wife of one of the guys in the RC submarine group makes awesome cookies, and brings along mass quantities to the big meet in Carmel every year. Before the trip, everyone asks her if she is bringing cookies, then as an afterthought asks if she is bringing her husband too...   :Lol:

You must get your priorities right  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on July 13, 2018, 09:07:45 AM
Seriously outstanding work. You really seem to be getting the hang of this modelmaking, Chris  :LittleDevil:

Just looking at the latest pictures, I'm trying to compare the size of the machine with the width of that doorway . . .  :thinking:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 13, 2018, 03:01:21 PM
Seriously outstanding work. You really seem to be getting the hang of this modelmaking, Chris  :LittleDevil:

Just looking at the latest pictures, I'm trying to compare the size of the machine with the width of that doorway . . .  :thinking:


 :o


The model is just wider than the 18" benchtop it is sitting on, the door is ... (Remeasures it again, quickly, nervously) ... 30" wide!


 ;D


Reminds me of some of my full size boat projects, when I doublechecked opening widths to make sure the canoe would fit through!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 13, 2018, 03:03:03 PM
The wife of one of the guys in the RC submarine group makes awesome cookies, and brings along mass quantities to the big meet in Carmel every year. Before the trip, everyone asks her if she is bringing cookies, then as an afterthought asks if she is bringing her husband too...   :Lol:

You must get your priorities right  ;)

Jo
Yup!  Her reply was usually a pause, thinking, then, Oh, yes, Greg can come along...


 :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 13, 2018, 04:10:13 PM
Been doing some noodling around in Fusion, figuring out the holding jig for the track segments. I checked, and can re-use the block from the lombard track jig, just need to deepen/widen the slots for the Marion track dimensions. The different operations require holding the parts in both the lengthwise and width-wise directions, and the top and bottom parts are different overall sizes, so there will be slots on both sides of the jig to handle them. Here are the positions for the top plate:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ngm5090nr/Image26.jpg)


(https://s5.postimg.cc/n3uqu2ao7/Image25.jpg)

Likewise the bottom plate can be held in either direction:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/c49jigzon/Image27.jpg)
The top clamp bar is held in a through-threaded hole, so it can come around the bottom side (did not show that in the screen capture). I have thought through the order of operations to make it all work out, from trimming the rough-sawn blanks through final part, and think it will work out - time will prove me right or wrong as usual...

Guess its time to mill the slots and then saw out a couple blanks from the steel bar, and see if it will work!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 13, 2018, 05:04:34 PM
Nice. Looking forward to seeing it in action.  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 13, 2018, 05:50:27 PM
Thanks Zee!

Got the slots re-milled in the old Lombard jig. You will notice that the bolt hole and slot are off center in the block - that is because the mill base I had on when I did the Lombard was the smaller version, and I was limited in the reach of the mill head. The larger one I have now does not require that, but it saves a bunch of work to reuse the existing jig layout, just enlarging the slots.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/jqmi7eejb/IMG_3198.jpg)
The corners of the slots were taken farther with a small mill cutter to allow the blocks to sit all the way square into the slots, the rounded inside corners the larger mill left would not allow that. The multiple holes in the clamping finger allow adjustment of where on the part it clamps.

And here is the slot setup on the bottom side, where the lower plates will be done:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rjd5zdcsn/IMG_3199.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 13, 2018, 09:47:04 PM
Last step for the day - cut down the stock for the top cap on the track segments from some .1875 x 1.5" stainless bar (one 6' length). Made up the 76 needed, plus a handfull of spares for goofs, setup tests, and if any left over, the spare tire rack on the trunk! :Lol:   The bandsaw made short work of all those cuts, it is really paying for itself on this model.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/nzvtn1zdz/IMG_3201.jpg)
The finished caps will be .781" wide, so I cut them at about .800+ to have room for a light cleanup pass in the holding jig.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on July 14, 2018, 04:56:40 PM
Awesome Chris just awesome!


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 14, 2018, 06:53:29 PM
Thanks Don!
One quick update for today, started in on trimming the top half of the track plates to size using the holding jig. Squared up the vise carefully on the mill, and clamped the jig in place. After a couple of trial cuts to get the left/right positions set on the table, started pumping the parts through to square up one of the long sides, then again to trim the other side to final width. Goes pretty quickly, just over an hour to do one side on the whole pile. One more batch to go, and I can rotate them 90 degrees into the narrow slot, and trim the short end to length (bar is 1.5", final dimension is 1.438"). That will all be done on one end since the sides of the raw bar were nice and square. After that, will start milling in the shape on the top surfaces, where it slopes down at the ends.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/41ysn9hiv/IMG_3202.jpg)
Yes, doing 80+ plates seems like a lot, but they go through each operation quickly - would be a lot longer if I did each plate to finished shape then started the next!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 14, 2018, 09:30:14 PM
Got all the parts trimmed to width, have moved to trimming them to length, using the longer slot in the center of the jig (is slightly deeper than the wide one, so there are walls to hold the part in alignment on 3 sides). A couple more batches trimming off the end and I can start shaping the tapers on the top surface...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/lob95kp87/IMG_3203.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 15, 2018, 03:08:09 PM
Next step is to taper the narrow ends. The holding jig was tilted up to 5.4 degrees using a protractor/ruler, and the depth set to take a .325 wide wedge off the top surface. Now its a quick pass back and forth, swap the part end for end, another pass, on to the next. So far I have about 2/3rds of them done, should have the rest in a couple more sessions today. Here is a picture of the setup, with a tapered part in the foreground to show where this is going. Its a subtle change, but will really improve the look, and make it match the originals.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/uz5qs7j87/IMG_3204.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 15, 2018, 05:31:43 PM
All the tapers are done, and starting to round over the top edges on the ends, using a small (1/16" radius) rounding over end mill. Just removing enough to radius the edge, not taking it down completely flush on the ends of the arc. Quick pass on each end, on to the next. So far the holding jig is working perfectly, once I get the distances set on the first part, I can lock down the height and one direction on the table, and zip through the passes on each part (stopping the motor when changing, don't like to have fingers anywhere near that close to a moving cutter). A plate without the end cut done is sitting on the back of the vise to show the difference.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/tp7xdcs2v/IMG_3205.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 15, 2018, 05:45:35 PM
 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on July 15, 2018, 06:17:06 PM
Hi Chris,

I am curious, do you do an Over-cut or an Under-cut on the stainless and what RPM. You are making this sound fast and easy.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 15, 2018, 06:37:36 PM
Hi Chris,

I am curious, do you do an Over-cut or an Under-cut on the stainless and what RPM. You are making this sound fast and easy.

Have a great day,
Thomas
I always prefer to do an undercut to remove the stock (if I have the term right, where the cutter comes up to the surface) and usually do a return cut (overcut, or climbing cut) without moving the depth, which gives a nice clean finish. This is 303 stainless, which is classed as a easy machining alloy like 360 brass is, with a tiny bit if lead in the mix. It cuts a lot like 12L14 steel, but doesn't rust like that stuff does.


 I don't know what the rpm is, have no scale, mainly go by sound and feel, its less than half max speed for sure, too fast and it gets too hot. These cuts are not that deep so they are going quick.  Some of the cuts later on the bottom halves will be removing a lot, and will likely be done in several shallower passes, staying within the limits of the small mill and nit wearing the cutter so fast.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 15, 2018, 06:37:51 PM
:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on July 15, 2018, 07:12:31 PM
Thanks Chris, I appreciate your help.

Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 15, 2018, 07:40:00 PM
Thanks Chris, I appreciate your help.

Thomas
Anytime!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 15, 2018, 09:46:03 PM
And one more set of edges to round over, the long ones on the top. Reset the holding jig down flat from the 5.4 degree position it has been, and switched the part to sitting so the long edge is out. Reset the height and table position in a few tries, sneaking up on the sweet spot, locked it down, and started making passes there. Not taking a lot off, just enough to knock off the sharp edge. After this, next big step will be using a ball end mill to undercut the long edge so it fits over the hinges on the bottom half of the track segments.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/w5ec4yeyv/IMG_3206.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on July 15, 2018, 10:55:12 PM
Looking good Chris!
Every time I tune in it seems the space time continuum has been warped again!

Right onto load tracker.......hope that truck of  :popcornsmall: turns up soon!


Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 15, 2018, 11:01:13 PM
Looking good Chris!
Every time I tune in it seems the space time continuum has been warped again!

Right onto load tracker.......hope that truck of  :popcornsmall: turns up soon!


Cheers Kerrin


 :cheers:


Just looked back, only been a couple of days so far on the tracks. Not bad!  But, this has been the easy half so far, the bittom half of the track is the complex bit. The jig is working great, well worth making.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on July 16, 2018, 12:51:17 AM
Great progress Chris.  You must be working those elves overtime.  Sure hope they don't unionize, might set you back a bit  :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 16, 2018, 01:17:32 AM
Great progress Chris.  You must be working those elves overtime.  Sure hope they don't unionize, might set you back a bit  :ROFL:
That would be too much paperwork. They would probably just bungie cord me to the bed.   Again.


 :Lol:

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 16, 2018, 04:41:09 PM
This morning I finished rounding over the top edges of the segments, and did some tests with a 1/8" radius ball end mill to undercut where the hinge fingers will go. It worked, but took several cuts to avoid overworking the ball end cutter. I am thinking I will do an experiment before continuing, making a 45 degree cut with the side of an end mill to remove the bulk of the material, then come back and do the finish pass with the ball end to just shape the curve. It will mean an extra set of passes on all the parts, but I think the end result will be better, and easier on the cutter - the ball end loses cutting efficiency the farther in towards to center you get at the end.
First, break for lunch!
Here is the first pair of test parts, all done on the ball end cutter. The one in the jig shows how it is held, the one behind it shows the finished shape.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/erm4q8c4n/IMG_3207.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 16, 2018, 07:12:59 PM
Just did some experimenting with the procedures. Started with milling a 45 degree angle to remove the bulk of the material before using the ball mill:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/cjcjmrrvb/IMG_3208.jpg)

That would go in one pass, but getting the part in and out was awkward, and would take longer. So, tried one down flat, taking a notch into the recess area, stopping just short of where the curve would be (put in a trial part with the curve in place to judge from), with the cutter just below a 45 from the curve, so it removed a little more from the bottom than the vertical.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tjvfvgcmf/IMG_3211.jpg)

Then set up for the ball end mill again, and ran both test parts through, taking out the rest of the material in one pass. Results were interesting, both sets of parts worked, but the ones with the 45 cut took more effort to move the ball end mill, and heated up the part and the cutter more. Combine that with the awkward setup, and the 45 degree cut is out, going to do the rest with the flat notch approach.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/jmkf2dpl3/IMG_3212.jpg)
I could do everything with the ball end mill, but that is at least 3 passes, changing the  position of the table each time, which increases the chances for error and reduces the accuracy compared to setting up each cut and locking down the table.
So, couple more passes through all the parts coming in the next day or so!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on July 16, 2018, 09:05:13 PM
This sort of job is where a stout horizontal mill really shines...

lookin' good!

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 17, 2018, 12:07:43 AM
This sort of job is where a stout horizontal mill really shines...

lookin' good!

Pete


I bet it would!  Thats actually how I modelled it in 3d, drew up the profiles from ends and the sides, and extruded shapes to use to cut away the core block. Those shapes, if ground into horiz mill cutters, would be ideal for making these track segments.




If only I had that kind of big machine tools!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 17, 2018, 12:35:48 AM
Results were interesting, both sets of parts worked, but the ones with the 45 cut took more effort to move the ball end mill, and heated up the part and the cutter more. Combine that with the awkward setup, and the 45 degree cut is out, going to do the rest with the flat notch approach.

From my amateurish point of view...I'm kind of not surprised. With the 45 cut, I would have thought the ball end mill would have more material to cut. Particularly (depending on geometry) at the very tip of the ball end mill that I find surprising can even cut.

In the other method, the very end of the ball end mill is hardly in play (right?) and the sides can do a decent job.

I'm not speaking from any experience.

Attached picture is my attempt to explain. On the left is the 45 degree and the circle represents the ball end.
On the right is the straight end mill with the circle (ball end) following.

Does that make sense?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 17, 2018, 01:08:39 AM
Thats a pretty good representation Zee. I had not drawn it out, probably should have, just held the cutters up to the stock, and initially thought the 45 would need less from the ball cutter. The very tip of the ball can actually cut, its a center cutting mill bit, just like a center cutting flat end bit, with two of the four flutes extending right to the middle. The closer you get to the tip, though, the smaller the diameter and the smaller the flutes so less room for chips. Bottom line is that doing the square cut appears to work better.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 17, 2018, 01:41:56 AM
Zee - here is a drawing closer to what I did, the relative dimensions match the part and the cuts:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wtj1t6ppj/Image32.jpg)
The two initial cuts had to be within the quarter circle that the ball end mill would be making, or it would show in the final part. Looking at the two cutters, held up to the part at the time (did not draw it till now), I had figured that there was less material to remove with the ball mill with the angled cut, but I think the difference is that with the square cut, it is removing less material down near the tip and more up the side where it is a larger radius cutter, and the flutes are larger for better chip removal. Does that make sense? It definitely took less force to cut the second way, and generated a lot less heat in the part and cutter. Not what I expected at first, but it looks like this way will work out well. If it did not involve going through all those parts yet again, I'd be tempted to make another square cut higher and farther to the left, but since the cutter is just a 1/8" radius this is do-able in one pass.

Great idea to draw this out!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 17, 2018, 02:12:00 AM
I'm glad I had the correct head on.  ;D

Your drawings are more accurate and more clear.

Although the area (amount of material to remove) seems larger in the 2nd pic. I was wondering if it could be less.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 17, 2018, 02:16:46 AM
I'm glad I had the correct head on.  ;D

Your drawings are more accurate and more clear.

Although the area (amount of material to remove) seems larger in the 2nd pic. I was wondering if it could be less.
The area at the tip in the second is less, think thats the key since the shank cuts more easily than the tip.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 17, 2018, 02:19:44 AM
I'm glad I had the correct head on.  ;D

Your drawings are more accurate and more clear.

Although the area (amount of material to remove) seems larger in the 2nd pic. I was wondering if it could be less.
The area at the tip in the second is less, think thats the key since the shank cuts more easily than the tip.

Thanks! That's what I was going for. I think.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 17, 2018, 07:27:54 PM
Couple of sessions with the ball end mill, here is the first batch of complete track top halves. Bunch more to go, then I can start on the bottom halves.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/d4f1t6cwn/IMG_3214.jpg)
One annoying thing happened on these - figured that I would switch to a fresh ball end cutter, might as well start with a fresh sharp one, I figured (the other one was also used to do the profiling on all the track plates for the Lombard, still was cutting well though). Put the fresh one in, couple adjustments to get the height correct, and made the first pass.


Very obvious right away that something was wrong, it was cutting hard, throwing off very hot chips, and sounded wrong.   :shrug:
Stopped the cut, backed it out and removed the cutter. Could tell from the shiny spots on the back side of the flutes, out near the tip, that they had ground it wrong, and did not have enough (or any) relief angle where it came around the end to the tip!

 :Mad:
So, put the first cutter back in, back to cutting well. With a few choice words....
Later took a close look under magnification and a straightedge, could see where the bad shape was, and did a little fine grinding there. Not sure if I got it all, or if the rubbing generated enough heat to screw up the hardness, have to try it on some scrap later on after finishing the rest of the parts. I've had a few drill bits like that, where they goofed the grinding at the front outside corners (were part of a large set of cobalt drills, most were fine, just a few that they swarfed up on).
Grrrrrrr!!!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 18, 2018, 02:42:49 AM
Some more sessions of cutting the overhangs, have 2/3rds of them done so far, should get the rest tomorrow.


I have been looking forward to the bottom halves, and am debating whether to make them steel or brass. Brass would be much easier to shape these complex forms, but steel would definitely be more strong...


 :thinking:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 18, 2018, 03:20:42 AM
I have been looking forward to the bottom halves, and am debating whether to make them steel or brass. Brass would be much easier to shape these complex forms, but steel would definitely be more strong...

Treads = steel. I don't see how one gets around that.  ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 18, 2018, 03:41:35 AM
I have been looking forward to the bottom halves, and am debating whether to make them steel or brass. Brass would be much easier to shape these complex forms, but steel would definitely be more strong...

Treads = steel. I don't see how one gets around that.  ;D
True. Just that I keep looking at the shaping, and it makes me think brass would be so much easier to carve. It would be half steel, half brass, but you have a point, it would be kinda half-brassed to do it that way!


 :LittleDevil:


Given all the other hard work in this, I need to do it right.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 18, 2018, 03:49:05 AM
Given all the other hard work in this, I need to do it right.

I don't know what's right...but I know you want to be happy/satisfied.

(P.S. right = steel.  ;D )

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Baner on July 18, 2018, 04:58:12 AM
Looking at the part, brass or steel seems like a moot question - I don’t think I could machine something that complex in any material! It looks plenty difficult enough that I don’t think steel will make it much harder. If anything steel might be more resilient to cutting forces.
Excellent work all round by the way.

Dave.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 18, 2018, 01:52:29 PM
Looking at the part, brass or steel seems like a moot question - I don’t think I could machine something that complex in any material! It looks plenty difficult enough that I don’t think steel will make it much harder. If anything steel might be more resilient to cutting forces.
Excellent work all round by the way.

Dave.
I think I agree - some of those narrow fingers might be too flexible in bras under the cutter when doing the final faces. The hinge fingers would be a lot more durable in steel.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 18, 2018, 10:28:38 PM
Today I got the rest of the top-half track parts milled to shape. Here is a shot of the bin full (82 of them, including spares) with a couple out front to show the shapes. Quite a pile, the bin weighed in at 4.2 pounds.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/4e98jzcyf/IMG_3216.jpg)
To take off the small burs at the edges, and to even up the appearance of the raw vs milled areas, they are currently taking a long soak in the vibratory tumbler with some pyramidal ceramic media, a medium cut grit that will remove a little material and leave a coarser finish. This is the same media that I used on the tracks for the Lombard, and I liked how that looked. Just checked after 20 minutes of running, the burs are gone, and the finish on the flats is about halfway to blended in, so I'll check again after a full hour, which is I think how long I let it run on the Lombard parts.

In the meantime, I have cut off a handful of blanks for the bottom halves of the track segments, to test out the holding jig and make sure the sequence I am envisioning is going to work out before committing too much metal.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/cjrai58x3/IMG_3218.jpg)
These bars are the same 1.5" width as the tops, but are 3/8" thick vs 3/16" for the tops.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 19, 2018, 07:19:02 PM
A very productive day so far. This morning I went back to my Fusion model of the holding jig, and made some notes about the order I had worked out for milling the shapes into the lower half of the track segments. These next couple posts will be very detailed, I want to capture the order of things well so I can refer back to it myself as I do the mass quantities of parts to come - I am going to make just one part to test out the sequences before starting the rest, to make sure I am not going to paint myself into a corner.

So, I got started by milling a slot down the center of the part, which will form the seat for the top half parts I made first. The slot is .125 deep to match the tops, and extends out to within .250 of each side. To leave room for holding the part, I first cut the center and one side, then turned the part around to finish the other side. The initial cut was made in shallow steps, then once to depth it was just a matter of back/forth passes to widen the slot.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/a7a3tbhmv/IMG_3221.jpg)
Then I set up with a 1/8" radius round over bit. Now, these come with the lower part of the cutter extended a bit (amount seems to vary by brand) to allow cutting right to the vertical portion. In my case, I want to have the round part end at the bottom of the slot, so I had to carefully grind off the bottom few thou of the cutter (slow speed grinder, fine wheel, plenty of water dipping to keep it cool) so that the cutter ended at the end of the radius portion. Then, just a matter of a pass down each side of the part at the edge of the slot.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fvgek6ytz/IMG_3223.jpg)
With the cutter at the same height, moved out and did the same cut on the outside of the part on both sides:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/smukqolgn/IMG_3224.jpg)
Quick test to make sure the slot and curves would mate with the top piece:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bz32o6izb/IMG_3227.jpg)
Good fit, so a little  :cartwheel: and moved on!  The next step was to move the holder vertical, and mill the finger slots for the hinges. I did not do the wider areas to the sides, since I need those to hold the parts in the jig for the center cuts. These slots are a few thou wider than the fingers to let them pivot freely - they are not holding the hinge up like a door hinge does. First did the one slot in the center on one side, making a center cut then moved the part over each way to widen the slot to final dimensions:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/oqh8upvc7/IMG_3228.jpg)
Note that I did not go all the way through, not needed since the bottom portion will be milled off thinner later anyway. Then turned the part over and did the two slots on the other side.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/5ldzkyodz/IMG_3229.jpg)
Then, turned the part up vertical into the deeper slot, and milled off the side areas in several passes:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7pycm12vb/IMG_3231.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/xli35979z/IMG_3232.jpg)
Then it was time to drill for the hinge pins, the pins are 1/8", but I used a #30 drill (.128) to let them swing freely.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/awsw5oxlz/IMG_3238.jpg)
The drilling could have been done earlier, but doing it now meant that the hinge slots would act as places for the chips to escape, so I did not have to peck at the hole to keep clearing chips.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tp4r9aovb/IMG_3239.jpg)
Here are some shots showing the progression so far, from rough blank to trimmed blank to half-finished part, and how they fit to the top piece:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/odpuokv2v/IMG_3240.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/o0ygies8n/IMG_3241.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/ics5ri0qv/IMG_3242.jpg)
So far so good, next will be to mill in the fingers on the ends and shape the bottom where it fits over the sprocket wheels. The lower part of the hinge fingers will be rounded off as part of that process. But, this is a good place to break and come back when I am fresh.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 19, 2018, 07:47:33 PM
But, this is a good place to break and come back when I am fresh.

Hee hee hee. When he is fresh.  :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 19, 2018, 08:17:29 PM
But, this is a good place to break and come back when I am fresh.

Hee hee hee. When he is fresh.  :lolb:


 :slap:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 20, 2018, 05:58:53 PM
This morning I started in again on the bottom half track prototype. First step was to take the bottom side of the hinges down to dimension:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rp1n4mkvr/IMG_3244.jpg)
giving this shape:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/faev4b13b/IMG_3245.jpg)
could have rounded off the bottom of the hinges now, but I wanted that material there to locate in the jig when undercutting the fingers at the side. That was done with the jig angled up in the vise, and using a 1/4" ball end mill, taking several light cuts down to the point where the ends of the fingers were almost sharp.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/p7pvxdgev/IMG_3246.jpg)
Part with the undercuts done:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/uj4si27mf/IMG_3249.jpg)
Then used the same 1/8" corner rounding bit as before to round the bottom corners of the hinges off:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/e84ols5fb/IMG_3251.jpg)
Then, with the jig held vertical in the vise, switched to a 1/8" cutter and cut the openings between the fingers, coming from the flat side through to the curved side in one pass - that way there was maximum thickness to support the fingers as long as possible. After the first pass in the centers of the openings, a couple more side passes got the fingers to width and proper spacing. The spacing is not even, for some reason Marion made one side thicker.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xpzc1ozs7/IMG_3253.jpg)
With that operation done, nervous doing it but there was not issues on it (I think there would have been if I had made them out of brass, the fingers are only .062" wide and quite thin at the ends), I moved the jig back down flat and milled the opening in the center to take the idler wheels. The opening was taken out to meet the bottoms of the flanges on either side, which will be tapered next. Note that for the following operations, I put on of the top half pieces in as a support, since there is not as much material backing up the hinge fingers any more and I did not want the clamp to flex the part.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/srbtn6quf/IMG_3254.jpg)
Then tilted the jig up to mill the inside of the flanges, a few degrees more than the sides of the idler wheels so they have some play to center themselves.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/o5fpeukqv/IMG_3255.jpg)
To do the taper on the narrow ends of the flanges, tipped the jig up to 60 degrees and took off the ends. For this operation, the part was held back on the top of the jig, which was used for the top parts.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4atnsqd93/IMG_3256.jpg)
And except for drilling a locator pin or screw hole to fasten the parts together, that completes the prototype of the track segment!   8)
Just need to repeat this entire process 75 more times....   :o
Here are the parts:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/iu0su5e3r/IMG_3258.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/px8o9rr93/IMG_3260.jpg)
And set in place on top of the idler wheel:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3y29mki4n/IMG_3262.jpg)

Time for a cookie and a nap on the porch!   :whoohoo:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 20, 2018, 06:07:17 PM
Awesome Chris, just awesome.

You apparently freshen up pretty good.  ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on July 20, 2018, 06:44:19 PM
He does give a whole new meaning to “power nap” doesn’t he Zee?

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 20, 2018, 06:49:17 PM
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.......


 :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gbritnell on July 20, 2018, 09:45:59 PM
I certainly don't envy you having to make all those track links by hand. As much as I like hand machining this would certainly be a good place for CNC work.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 20, 2018, 10:01:51 PM
I certainly don't envy you having to make all those track links by hand. As much as I like hand machining this would certainly be a good place for CNC work.
gbritnell
Absolutely, but at least with the holding jig it goes fairly quickly. Making just the one part, figuring out all the setups as I went, took about 6 hours of shop time. Once each setup is made, though, it is no more than a minute or two per operation on each piece. The top halves took just a few days to make, I figure the bottom halves, with the extra operations, will be no more than a week or two, depending on how much shop time I take per day - when doing these production type things, I'll tend to go in for 1/2 hour to an hour at a time and do a batch, then go do something else for a while, come back for a few sessions like that per day.


 Even with CNC, it would be necessary to be there for just as much time to change parts, clear swarf, etc - less effort but still a lot of time involved. Pohtato, pahtahto.... Its all fun!  And look at all the swarf I'll have to pour down the neck of salesmen!  :Lol:


So far I have the first 45 blanks sawn off the long bars of raw stock (3/8x1.5 stainless), another 45 minutes should see the rest cut (loving the new bandsaw, very repeatable and fast).
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 20, 2018, 11:13:55 PM
And here are the blanks for all the bottom-half track segments, all 14 pounds of them - will be interesting to see what it weighs once all the excess swarf has been removed...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/vmy3lc6zb/IMG_3265.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 20, 2018, 11:41:28 PM
And here are the blanks for all the bottom-half track segments, all 14 pounds of them - will be interesting to see what it weighs once all the excess swarf has been removed...

Might be interesting to see how much you weigh after all that work...and cookies.  ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on July 21, 2018, 12:45:17 AM
You're a machining animal, Chris!  :popcorn:

This is just astounding the number of operations you're putting into each of those little puppies!

I'm loving this build.  Hope you are enjoying it as much as we are, Chris!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 21, 2018, 12:58:05 AM
And here are the blanks for all the bottom-half track segments, all 14 pounds of them - will be interesting to see what it weighs once all the excess swarf has been removed...

Might be interesting to see how much you weigh after all that work...and cookies.  ;D
Swarf is easier to get rid of than cookie residue...   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 21, 2018, 01:00:46 AM
You're a machining animal, Chris!  :popcorn:

This is just astounding the number of operations you're putting into each of those little puppies!

I'm loving this build.  Hope you are enjoying it as much as we are, Chris!
Kim


Absolutely! I am having a great time on this build, may be taking the Marion and Lombard up to the Maine logging museum in October for their fall run, if I can figure out how to get them in the car.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on July 21, 2018, 02:44:39 AM
Incredible Chris  :ThumbsUp:
 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on July 21, 2018, 02:37:02 PM
Hi Chris,
 JUST WOW !!!!

So cool to see the tracks coming together. As a thought to hold the 2 bits together.....a couple of rivets maybe??

Question Time....

 Given you are machining stainless & its 303 & you are using small cutters, what speeds are you running & approx. depth of cuts? Cause you are getting pretty good finishes & Zee & I are nosey, & who knows we may all learn something

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 21, 2018, 07:39:16 PM
Hi Chris,
 JUST WOW !!!!

So cool to see the tracks coming together. As a thought to hold the 2 bits together.....a couple of rivets maybe??

Question Time....

 Given you are machining stainless & its 303 & you are using small cutters, what speeds are you running & approx. depth of cuts? Cause you are getting pretty good finishes & Zee & I are nosey, & who knows we may all learn something

Cheers Kerrin
Hi Kerrin!


I am thinking that one screw or rivet could do it, the hinge fingers keep it centered in the quarter round grooves in the top.


Dont know speeds, there is no scale on the speed knob, but as with drilling it varies with cutter diameter, too fast and it rubs and heats, too slow and it can chatter and grab. I go by sound and feel. On the mill, making the return pass without changing depth of cut takes off a elf hair more, and gives a smooth finish. On shallow, from end that is, it will do wide cuts, on deep from end, like to take nibbles from the side. For the hinge fingers I went full height, just fed slow.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 22, 2018, 12:14:15 AM
Today I have started prepping the blocks for the bottom halves of the track segments. Got the first side, of the sawn sides, milled off square on all 82, first dozen have the second side squared and to width. Going very quick, about a minute each including putting the parts in and out.


One thing I added is a high volume aquarium air pump with a hose taped to the jig, saves having to stop and clear chips out of the jig after every couple of parts. This one is rated at 300 liters per minute, not sure if I believe that but its doing the job nicely.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on July 22, 2018, 01:13:29 AM
Hi Chris ,  wow that is a lot of work ....I admire your tenacity and hard work....lesser mortals would have made the first one to use as a pattern and then spent a fortune getting them cast....
Willy :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 22, 2018, 01:25:55 AM
Hi Chris ,  wow that is a lot of work ....I admire your tenacity and hard work....lesser mortals would have made the first one to use as a pattern and then spent a fortune getting them cast....
Willy :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
I haven't figured out how to get paid that fortune for not having them cast....   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Baner on July 22, 2018, 02:45:12 AM
Great work Chris!

Bit late to the party with this link, but for future reference, or for anyone else who lacks your skill and patience (like me!) this place does 3d Wax printing and subsequent castings from CAD models:

http://www.stanier-engineering.com/page/3d-wax-printing/

I've not used the service, but apparently it's good value. He supplies this other place here, which gives an rough idea of quality and pricing:

http://www.crofittings.co.uk/
http://modeleng.proboards.com/thread/10339/scale-fittings-locos

Dave.


Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 22, 2018, 02:50:00 AM
Great work Chris!

Bit late to the party with this link, but for future reference, or for anyone else who lacks your skill and patience (like me!) this place does 3d Wax printing and subsequent castings from CAD models:

http://www.stanier-engineering.com/page/3d-wax-printing/ (http://www.stanier-engineering.com/page/3d-wax-printing/)

I've not used the service, but apparently it's good value. He supplies this other place here, which gives an rough idea of quality and pricing:

http://www.crofittings.co.uk/ (http://www.crofittings.co.uk/)
http://modeleng.proboards.com/thread/10339/scale-fittings-locos (http://modeleng.proboards.com/thread/10339/scale-fittings-locos)

Dave.
Thanks Dave!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on July 22, 2018, 05:00:47 AM
Hi Chris,
 Thanks for the info....

Great to see someone else runs a...”suck it & see” machine shop!  :facepalm:

Worth checking out the CRO link, Adam is doing some amazing work! Of course getting the parts cast down under helps...... ;D

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 22, 2018, 10:54:45 PM
Thought I'd share this one - a pic from our RC submarine run yesterday, one of the others got this shot of my Green Sea Turtle sub breaking the surface for a breath of air - the little on on his back is too small to swim on his own, still needs the scuba tanks!   :Lol: (https://s5.postimg.cc/699z1f947/turtles_1.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on July 23, 2018, 01:42:41 AM
Is that a SCUBA tank on the little ones back?

Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 23, 2018, 03:19:05 AM
Is that a SCUBA tank on the little ones back?

Thomas
Yup!  The big one likes to stay under a ling time, the little one cant hold his breath that long...   :ROFL:


The small one is the plastic figurine I found at the zoo shop, scalwd it up to make the patterns to carve the molds the big one was cast in. It just seemed right to have the little guy take a ride, it is on a loose tether so it swims an inch above the big one.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 23, 2018, 03:21:26 AM
Progress for the day, all of the lower blanks (82) are squared up and trimmed to width, first 24 are trimmed to length. Probably will get rest trimmed to length tomorrow... Lotsa swarf with no big change in appearance.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 23, 2018, 11:14:08 PM
Today got the rest of the lower half blanks taken down to length:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/n213j95br/IMG_3266.jpg)
Here is the stack of them ready for the next shaping operation, which will be the slot down the center to take the tab from the top halves:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/nrjvvmdl3/IMG_3267.jpg)
There was a bit of a break in the action late this morning, when the tendonitis in my right thumb reared its ugly head again - it has been feeling pretty good lately, thought it was almost healed up. Then, when tossing one of the blanks into the bin, felt like a lightning bolt through the wrist - guess I had started using it again a little too hard. Bad enough this time to go in and get it looked at again, was wondering if there was a break in the wrist or a bone spur maybe, but the x rays showed nothing wrong on the bones. They confirmed the DeQuervains Tendonitis diagnosis, and set up a referal with the Ortho specialist. Hopefully nothing too bad, its usually just a rest/ice/wait treatment. So, going to need to take the next steps on the tracks slowly. I did call up Sherline, and found that I can reverse the mill table to put the handwheel on the left so I dont need to use the right hand for milling, probably will do that if it does not heal up quickly. Bottom line, nothing serious, just will have to flip people off left handed for a bit!   :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 23, 2018, 11:21:24 PM
Bottom line, nothing serious, just will have to flip people off left handed for a bit!   :LittleDevil:

Do it. Take care of yourself. I'd rather you go slow than not at all.  ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on July 24, 2018, 12:13:51 AM
Parts are looking stupid good. Load up on straight cherry juice ( Mother Earth type) really helps.

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 24, 2018, 12:29:44 AM
Parts are looking stupid good. Load up on straight cherry juice ( Mother Earth type) really helps.

Cletus


Cutting oil works better on the end mill...   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 24, 2018, 06:24:56 PM
Got started making the slots in the bottom half blanks to take the tabs from the top halves. First couple dozen are done so far. Did a couple of tests, wound up using a 3/16" end mill, taking several passes down to depth. A wider cutter went faster, but generated more heat, narrow one would go deeper in a pass, but would probably overheat and dull quicker. This midrange one is juuussst right! Can keep cutting, hardly generates much heat, so it will stay sharper longer. On a larger mill with flood coolant, it would be a different matter entirely I am sure.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/3on8g74h3/IMG_3269.jpg)

The slots will be taken out to width in the next step.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 24, 2018, 07:25:57 PM
Recently I have been using a small aquarium air pump as a chip blower when milling recessed areas and narrow slots. I know there are articulated ball joint tubes that are used on tabletop scroll saws, but can't find any for sale seperately from the saws. Anyone know of a source?


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on July 24, 2018, 07:32:25 PM
Hi Chris,
 Looking good, ouch about the wrist, sounds like a soothing ale or two, left handed or course & only for medicinal purposes!  :DrinkPint:

Try evilbay, look for lock line should find it. You may even be able to get it local to you.

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 24, 2018, 07:59:24 PM
Hi Chris,
 Looking good, ouch about the wrist, sounds like a soothing ale or two, left handed or course & only for medicinal purposes!  :DrinkPint:

Try evilbay, look for lock line should find it. You may even be able to get it local to you.

Cheers Kerrin


Loc-Line, thats the ones I have seen, available bunch of places if you know the name!  Thanks very much!!!


Hmmm, still have one bottle left of that special Belgian Grand Cru ale that a friend with a microbrew made, that would go great, take the edge off the wrist! No more shop time after starting that though, its about 15% ABV. Perfect with dark chocolate chip cookies...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: mklotz on July 24, 2018, 09:37:06 PM
Amazon has some Loc-Line components.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 24, 2018, 09:44:51 PM
Amazon has some Loc-Line components.
Excellent, as soon as the Grand Cru wears off I'll check it out, thanks!


Tasty stuff!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 24, 2018, 10:47:38 PM
Not to go off tangent...but since Chris is somewhat distracted... ;D

That Loc-Line stuff can be used with air? Not just coolant? If with air...what's the setup? Does it require multi-turn valve or something more on/off?

I should look into that. Just today I was wishing I had something blowing away the chips while I milled a recess.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 24, 2018, 11:18:18 PM
Not to go off tangent...but since Chris is somewhat distracted... ;D

That Loc-Line stuff can be used with air? Not just coolant? If with air...what's the setup? Does it require multi-turn valve or something more on/off?

I should look into that. Just today I was wishing I had something blowing away the chips while I milled a recess.
Yuummmm, mostly back from the tangent, a pint and a half of well aged grand cru....


Good question, I am assuming it will work with air as well as coolant, since I have seen them on some brands of wood saw.  For milling recesses, should work to keep things clear enough of chips to see what I am doing, just using a plastic tube from the aquarium pump has worked but its hard to aim. The force is low so its not rhrowing chips at me, just an inch to the side. I have used a vacuum for this s, but its very noisy and takes another hand to aim. I will order one of the loc-line ones and report back.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dave Otto on July 25, 2018, 01:19:45 AM
Not to go off tangent...but since Chris is somewhat distracted... ;D

That Loc-Line stuff can be used with air? Not just coolant? If with air...what's the setup? Does it require multi-turn valve or something more on/off?

I should look into that. Just today I was wishing I had something blowing away the chips while I milled a recess.


Yup it will work fine for air, always a good plan to not re-cut chips, it screws up the finish on your part and is hard on cutters.

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 25, 2018, 01:24:07 AM
Not to go off tangent...but since Chris is somewhat distracted... ;D

That Loc-Line stuff can be used with air? Not just coolant? If with air...what's the setup? Does it require multi-turn valve or something more on/off?

I should look into that. Just today I was wishing I had something blowing away the chips while I milled a recess.


Yup it will work fine for air, always a good plan to not re-cut chips, it screws up the finish on your part and is hard on cutters.

Dave
Good to know, I have put in an order, including an adapter to the hose coming off the pump. Pics and report to come on that when I get it.


Thanks guys!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 25, 2018, 06:30:32 PM
Initial slots done in all the parts, moving on to widening them out to full dimension...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/cha63uwev/IMG_3270.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 27, 2018, 01:13:08 AM
Only another 9 tracks got the slots widened out to size today, lots of other activities today, including a consult with the ortho specialist who put in a cortisone shot, supposed to help the DeQuervains heal up, if not there is a simple outpatient procedure they can do to open up the tendon channel in the wrist. Will know more in a couple weeks, in the meantime am milling lefthanded for a while, should only slow me to 35x Zee speed...


 :stickpoke:


Kidding, carl, kidding! Put down the hammer!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 27, 2018, 01:58:21 AM
Not to worry Chris.

Had an ultrasound of my abdomen today. Usual thing. I could see the tech scrunching up their face...wondering...'what in the world?'...
Yes yes. Lost my gall bladder as a young man. Yes yes. Got a stricture in a bile duct. Yes yes. Once in a while it gets plugged and reminds me of the movie "Alien".
Yes yes. All the ducts behind the stricture are way too big. Yes yes...I'm getting old.

But the liver is in good shape...and I can still enjoy a good toast to all my friends.  :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 27, 2018, 02:14:41 AM
Not to worry Chris.

Had an ultrasound of my abdomen today. Usual thing. I could see the tech scrunching up their face...wondering...'what in the world?'...
Yes yes. Lost my gall bladder as a young man. Yes yes. Got a stricture in a bile duct. Yes yes. Once in a while it gets plugged and reminds me of the movie "Alien".
Yes yes. All the ducts behind the stricture are way too big. Yes yes...I'm getting old.

But the liver is in good shape...and I can still enjoy a good toast to all my friends.  :cheers: :cheers:
You sure the funny look wasn't because the tech found that socket wrench you were looking for?


 :o
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on July 27, 2018, 01:12:13 PM
CNC milling left handed is pretty easy.  Just need 1 mouse click on the green button.   >:D  :mischief:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 27, 2018, 02:07:13 PM
CNC milling left handed is pretty easy.  Just need 1 mouse click on the green button.   >:D :mischief:


As Bill The Cat would have said,  Pffffttthh!


 :Jester:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on July 27, 2018, 04:10:35 PM
As Bill The Cat would have said,  Pffffttthh!

Yeah... but you lose the ever so important visual effects of the slobber in the translation from comic strip to text.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 27, 2018, 04:27:14 PM
As Bill The Cat would have said,  Pffffttthh!

Yeah... but you lose the ever so important visual effects of the slobber in the translation from comic strip to text.

Don
You are right, needs the picture...
(http://iseethefrog.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Bill-the-Cat.png)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on July 27, 2018, 10:17:28 PM
Why would anyone not want to come here and read this stuff?   :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dave Otto on July 28, 2018, 12:49:12 AM
Bloom County was always one of my favorites. :ThumbsUp:

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 28, 2018, 12:51:01 AM
Why would anyone not want to come here and read this stuff?   :ROFL:
All hail Zee, for dragging us down (or up? I think we started this way) to his level!   :Lol:

On the actual model side of things, been doing more sessions of taking the slots in the track segments out to width, got all but 9 done now, should be able to polish them off tomorrow and start rounding the corners on the hinge sections...
In the meantime, back to the banter!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on July 28, 2018, 12:55:59 AM
Hi Chris,
 Rename the thread......

THE Comedy Channel .......aka Chris’s Marion 91 Steam Shovel

Loving the work,

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 28, 2018, 01:04:34 AM
Hi Chris,
 Rename the thread......

THE Comedy Channel .......aka Chris’s Marion 91 Steam Shovel

Loving the work,

Cheers Kerrin
Gotta have something to laugh about while making 75+ copies of the same part!  Otherwise it would drive me crazy (and as the old joke goes, Thats no drive, Thats a short putt!)   :insane:
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on July 28, 2018, 01:19:06 AM
Hi Chris,
 We used to have an add on tv here for peanut butter...

Every jar has 1000 peanuts in it, ......mean time peanut 1001 can’t get in because the lids been put on.....his comment....” oh well there’ll nuts in there anyway”.......


Couldn’t find it on YouTube

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 28, 2018, 01:39:08 AM
Why would anyone not want to come here and read this stuff?   :ROFL:
All hail Zee, for dragging us down (or up? I think we started this way) to his level!   :Lol:

No credit to me. To drag anything...it has to be drag-able.  ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 28, 2018, 08:03:47 PM
The slots were taken to width on the last set of track segments this afternoon, and I have started rounding the corners off to form the hinge fingers...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/gky9tx43r/IMG_3272.jpg)
As I think I mentioned before, the bottom of the round-over cutter had to be ground off to get the curve to go all the way to the bottom of the slot, the cutters are usually made with a little excess straight portion beyond the curve to blend in with the next flat.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/p37py92wn/IMG_3271.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on July 28, 2018, 09:46:01 PM
You're gonna wear out that mill by the time the project is finished. No wonder your wrist is shot!

 :popcorn: :popcorn:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 28, 2018, 10:31:03 PM
You're gonna wear out that mill by the time the project is finished. No wonder your wrist is shot!

 :popcorn: :popcorn:

Pete
They are both definitely getting workouts!


The mill base is new from several months ago, had upgraded to the larger version to get enough reach, just yesterday I put on some cardboard deflectors since all the chips from milling the center slots kept getting into the ways and screws.


Not much change in the wrist yet from the shot the other day, but it sounds like it normally takes a week or two. I am resting it, doing the milling left handed for now. Just the occasional lifting of a glass...   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on July 29, 2018, 01:42:50 AM
Still with you Dog and I have to say a lot of repeat parts can get dull. But hey not to worry with all the elf’s you got on the job it’s just a walk-in the park..... :lolb: now did I say .......I..........like........ :Love:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 29, 2018, 02:01:35 AM
Still with you Dog and I have to say a lot of repeat parts can get dull. But hey not to worry with all the elf’s you got on the job it’s just a walk-in the park..... :lolb: now did I say .......I..........like........ :Love:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Thanks very much Don!


 :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 29, 2018, 03:44:37 PM
Got the inside corners rounded off on all the slots, starting to do the same for the outside corners. These go very quick, one pass over and back for each, with the table locked down for the depth of cut.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fymu7t97r/IMG_3273.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on July 29, 2018, 04:18:48 PM
CNC milling left handed is pretty easy.  Just need 1 mouse click on the green button.   >:D  :mischief:

Which hand do you hold the coffee cup/coke with then?

Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on July 30, 2018, 12:18:00 AM
Looking good Chris. What size did you say the radius was? I guess you could turn a disc with a recess on the rear that would slide over your hand wheels, drill a hole for the handle to protrude through, attach a rod in the center, and drive it with a cordless tool ( redneck power feed  :lolb:).

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 30, 2018, 12:33:45 AM
Looking good Chris. What size did you say the radius was? I guess you could turn a disc with a recess on the rear that would slide over your hand wheels, drill a hole for the handle to protrude through, attach a rod in the center, and drive it with a cordless tool ( redneck power feed  :lolb: ).

Cletus
Hi Cletus!
The radius on the hinge portions is 1/8", on the corners of the top is 1/16".

Have not tried that kind of power feed, though last week I got a bit of sunburn on the nose at the pond, so I must be more of a RedNose than a RedNeck!   :ROFL:   Sorry, us elves have to work in Rudolf jokes where we can...!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 30, 2018, 12:38:47 AM
This afternoon I got the last of the hinge corners rounded off.   :cartwheel:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/b31kyzuuv/IMG_3274.jpg)
Pretty good pile of them, ready for cutting the slots to form the hinge fingers. There are two fingers on one side, three on the other, and a no-finger section out to the outer end. So, going to start with the two-finger side, which has one slot to cut in the center. Later on I'll mill the larger outer gaps, those will be a different setup. Here is the start of the center slots:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4pchvqxon/IMG_3277.jpg)
Notice that I am not bothering to go all the way through - the section that is on the left will be cut down later, leaving just the slot.

As a reminder, here is where all this is going (the slot I am cutting now is the one on the left side of the right-hand part) :
(https://s5.postimg.cc/px8o9rr93/IMG_3260.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 30, 2018, 01:40:44 AM
Are you done yet? Are you done yet? Are you done yet?

 ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 30, 2018, 01:54:59 AM
Are you done yet? Are you done yet? Are you done yet?

 ;D


Yes.


And we are there yet too.


Sigh. Where's the button for the backseat ejector...
 :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 30, 2018, 04:51:27 PM
And a good reminder to me of why I cut a half dozen extra parts for the tracks, and have been including them in each step. This morning I went through a batch of 20, cutting the center slot for the hinges, which requires a full cut pass, one-turn move to the side, and a lighter pass to finish the width of the slot. Towards the end of that batch I forgot to move the table back to the starting position, and very carefully, very exactly, made the slot precisely 0.050" too far to the side.
That part will still be taken forward through the next steps, but it will be used as the trial part in each operation to get things aligned. So, one major boo-boo down, have 5 more spares so far...  On the Lombard tracks I had made a handful of extras, and used every one of them. Much easier to make some extra in big lots like this (76 needed) than to recreate setups to make one more!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on July 30, 2018, 06:29:03 PM
Spares are good.  If you're really lucky you'll have EXACTLY the amount that the Elf Maintenance Department requests as part of their recommended replacement parts order.  You HAVE been allowing for that replacement parts order haven't you?

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 30, 2018, 06:54:54 PM
Spares are good.  If you're really lucky you'll have EXACTLY the amount that the Elf Maintenance Department requests as part of their recommended replacement parts order.  You HAVE been allowing for that replacement parts order haven't you?

Don
That would explain the invoice for 12 more bags of cookies!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 31, 2018, 11:19:45 PM
Lots of cranking later, the hinge slots on the first side of each part is done, and I am halfway through the double ones on the second side of each part. Another day or so should see the slots complete, then can mill off the wider areas at the ends. I am glad that these hinges dont run all the way across the tracks like the Lombard ones did, that would double the number of slots.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/ksc3t6g47/IMG_3280.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Johnmcc69 on July 31, 2018, 11:29:59 PM
 :ThumbsUp:
 Excellent work Chris.

  :popcorn: :DrinkPint:
John
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on August 01, 2018, 12:13:41 AM
I can’t help it but all I can think of is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GhnV-6lqH8

Whiskey
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 01, 2018, 12:38:04 AM
:ThumbsUp:
 Excellent work Chris.

  :popcorn: :DrinkPint:
John
Thanks John!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 01, 2018, 12:39:07 AM
I can’t help it but all I can think of is:

[youtube1]https://youtu.be/5GhnV-6lqH8[/youtube1]

Whiskey
That is great! Great song, and seems so appropriate - first got me a bucket, then a crowd engine valve....
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 01, 2018, 03:59:41 PM
One piece at a time....

The last of the track segments has had the hinge slots milled in, after lunch I can start cutting the wide areas off the sides of the hinge sections...

(https://s5.postimg.cc/aw6vz5713/IMG_3281.jpg)

Oh, and those two parts on the table in front of the bin are the botched ones...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on August 01, 2018, 04:02:19 PM
Hi Chris,

That pile has to look real good to you now, all that work completed.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 01, 2018, 04:04:21 PM
Hi Chris,

That pile has to look real good to you now, all that work completed.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Sure does! That is the last of the heavy milling, the cuts get lighter from here out.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 01, 2018, 07:00:39 PM
Burp...  Good lunch!
This afternoon started on the wide areas at the side - with the part held vertical, set up to take off the wide area at the side of the hinge fingers using a number of passes. Then flipped the part over and did the same on the other end along the same end. The second side will need less off the end, so that will be a different setup after all the first sides are done.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/cfbgvnadj/IMG_3282.jpg)
Here is the first part test fit against another:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5ouzm7uxj/IMG_3283.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 04, 2018, 03:15:38 AM
I've been cranking away (  ;D ) on the ends of the hinge sections the last couple days, between some times outside enjoying the nice weather. One thing I decided was that the work was going too slow, with the parts held vertical and taking slices at them to take out the end sections - needed to take too many thin slices. I did a test, and found that if I laid the parts down horizontal again, and just used the side of the end mill rather than the side and end, I could take a much more aggressive cut and remove a lot more material per pass, meaning a lot fewer passes. It will require putting the parts up vertical again to square up the inside corner, but that can be done in a single pass so it will go fast. In the long run, this will take a lot less time.

Also, the Loc-Line clones showed up today - rather than the name brand ones, I found a bundle of 8 on Amazon for the same price that included 4 with a cone end and 4 with a fan end, and a shutoff valve at the other end of each one. For blowing out chips with air, the cone ones seem to do a better job than the fan ones. They hold position very well, and are working nicely with air from a high volume aquarium/hydroponics pump - could also be run from a compressor, but mine has a small tank and it cycles a lot for this use, the little air pump is a lot quieter and takes up less space in the shop. Below is a shot of them in use - I put two onto a one-to-four manifold that I had (stock item for air lines, I use it at shows, has the same NPT threads). The manifold is heavy enough to stay in place on the bench, with the nozzles positioned to blow the chops out of the cavity on the jig, so I dont need to spend time brushing or vacuuming them out between parts - the air nozzles just blow them a couple inches, not enough to be a hazard, just enough to get them out of the way.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4xyl5hyhz/IMG_3286.jpg)
As you can see, hogging out these end sections generates a lot of chips, am stopping every 10 or so to vacuum them up to keep the piles under control. I have about 15 more to do, then will position the jig vertical again to square up the inside corners.

Also, I took a little time to draw up the sequence of operations in Fusion, both for my own reference use to know what to do next, and also for the article this build will probably turn into later on. I have attached a pdf of that if you are interested.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on August 04, 2018, 03:42:47 AM
You also get better finish with the side flutes than the end flutes.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 04, 2018, 04:14:41 AM
You also get better finish with the side flutes than the end flutes.
Does it matter much what diameter mill you use for side cutting? Both for finish and depth of cut? I was surprised how much deeper a pass it would do when just on the side flutes compared to having the bottom involved in the cut.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: rspringer on August 04, 2018, 05:19:16 AM
Larger diameter generally leaves a better finish and are stronger.  They have a little less flexing thus allowing a deeper depth of cut per pass but must be run at a slower speed.   Of course I have never used a small mill before,  only full size Bridgeport, so your mileage may vary with less horse power.   
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on August 04, 2018, 12:31:59 PM
The more flutes the better the finish.  Plus with side flutes you can cut high on the tool reducing the stickout.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 04, 2018, 08:07:41 PM
This morning I got the last of the track segments roughed in at the ends of the hinges, and started milling the inside corners square, with the jig back up vertically. This is going much better than doing the bulk removal and squaring up the corners at the same time, like I started out doing. In this shot, the far side has been milled, the near side is still rounded from the roughing in step. Since they are at different heights, they will be done in seperate steps, so I can whip through one side all with the same settings.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/w6mzn7w2v/IMG_3287.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 05, 2018, 07:21:25 PM
Today I finished up milling the ends of the hinges on the track segments, here is the pile:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/t34ck9c8n/IMG_3288.jpg)
Next step is to drill for the hinge pins, then the final shaping of the bottom portions can start.
Also - for anyone in the Indiana region, next weekend will be a big RC submarine meet at the Veterans Memorial reflecting pool in Carmel. Usually get about 50 modellers there with a big variety of subs, running all weekend - no competition but just a fun outing. Visitors most welcome, this year one of our group has a sub set up just for visitors to run and learn about the hobby.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 06, 2018, 12:54:27 AM
First 50 of the tracks are drilled, couple more short sessions should see the rest done, then can start the bottom side milling....
(https://s5.postimg.cc/awsw5oxlz/IMG_3238.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 06, 2018, 04:52:15 PM
The last of the hinge pin holes have been drilled, and started on milling the shapes into the bottom side of the track segments. The first is to take the sides down to depth - then will round off the new corners.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/559czpayf/IMG_3290.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 06, 2018, 05:35:31 PM
Getting close!  :lolb:

Do you feel like you're on a treadmill?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: mklotz on August 06, 2018, 05:56:33 PM
Getting close!

Do you feel like you're on a treadmill?

No, he's on track!  (ROFL emoji suppressed in deference to the articulate.)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 06, 2018, 06:43:34 PM
Sometimes I feel like Mike here:
(https://media.giphy.com/media/rmcF4X3C53H2w/giphy.gif)

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on August 06, 2018, 08:01:23 PM
I’ve heard that practice makes perfect and I’ve also heard that repetition produces rejects. You are either really in practice or there is a big bin of rejects we haven’t seen. Awesome work Chris.

Eric
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 06, 2018, 08:32:09 PM
I’ve heard that practice makes perfect and I’ve also heard that repetition produces rejects. You are either really in practice or there is a big bin of rejects we haven’t seen. Awesome work Chris.

Eric
Or as I like to say, Perctize Makes Prefect. Um, Pratcise Makes Purfact. Something like that...


So far I only have one unusable part, several with goofs in areas that will be trimmed off anyway, and a couple with a center gap too wide but usable. Also found a couple while drilling where I missed squaring the inside corner, those were reworked and are fine. I can do about 10 or 15 of any one step then need a break or I miscount cranks.  Bits of tape on the table edge are very handy as reference marks to start or end cranking, very easy to get off by one otherwise.


Overall, the tracks are going faster than I feared, the jig has made it possible, without it I would have looked for rail truck plans!


One fun book arrived today, found a copy of Marion's care and feeding guide for the shovels. Its a 1932 edition, but has sections on steam enginez and boilers as well as diesel and electric models.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 08, 2018, 08:11:53 PM
Continuing on with the side cuts on the track segments, 53 done, 28 to go... These are taking a bit longer than the other cuts, roughly 4 minutes per segment to do the two sides on each. A few more sessions should see them done, ready for the next operation...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/s5gxeboiv/IMG_3291.jpg)
The bin is getting a lot lighter on each operation, down around 4 pounds of parts left - need to empty the bucket on the vacuum!  Just goes to show, machining is just converting large perfectly good bars of metal into small useful parts and large piles of chips!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on August 10, 2018, 01:13:22 AM
Continuing on with the side cuts on the track segments, 53 done, 28 to go... These are taking a bit longer than the other cuts, roughly 4 minutes per segment to do the two sides on each. A few more sessions should see them done, ready for the next operation...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/s5gxeboiv/IMG_3291.jpg)
The bin is getting a lot lighter on each operation, down around 4 pounds of parts left - need to empty the bucket on the vacuum!  Just goes to show, machining is just converting large perfectly good bars of metal into small useful parts and large piles of chips!

I took a tour of an Aircraft Plant when I was first starting CNC, At one point near the beginning of the tour we watched them load a two hundred pound slab of titanium on a CNC Machining Center. We passed it a couple of more times in the tour, once when there was a guy inside the enclosure with a broom removing chips. Near the end we were back at the mill when It finished and they removed two five pound parts. The tour guide told us there main product was swarf and aircraft parts were a byproduct. I also found out that if you were hired there ether as an operator or a programmer your first year was on swarf removal, I declined the offer of a position, I figured if I was going to wheeled a shovel I might as well do it on a farm.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 10, 2018, 01:18:27 AM
Continuing on with the side cuts on the track segments, 53 done, 28 to go... These are taking a bit longer than the other cuts, roughly 4 minutes per segment to do the two sides on each. A few more sessions should see them done, ready for the next operation...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/s5gxeboiv/IMG_3291.jpg)
The bin is getting a lot lighter on each operation, down around 4 pounds of parts left - need to empty the bucket on the vacuum!  Just goes to show, machining is just converting large perfectly good bars of metal into small useful parts and large piles of chips!

I took a tour of an Aircraft Plant when I was first starting CNC, At one point near the beginning of the tour we watched them load a two hundred pound slab of titanium on a CNC Machining Center. We passed it a couple of more times in the tour, once when there was a guy inside the enclosure with a broom removing chips. Near the end we were back at the mill when It finished and they removed two five pound parts. The tour guide told us there main product was swarf and aircraft parts were a byproduct. I also found out that if you were hired there ether as an operator or a programmer your first year was on swarf removal, I declined the offer of a position, I figured if I was going to wheeled a shovel I might as well do it on a farm.
Wow, glad my part yield is better than that!  Their tolerances were probably a lot tighter than mine though. At least I hope so!

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on August 10, 2018, 02:30:01 AM
hi Chris,,,, :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:  done... :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:  to go !!!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 10, 2018, 04:18:05 AM
hi Chris,,,, :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:  done... :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:  to go !!!!


 :lolb: :lolb: :lolb: :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 12, 2018, 09:39:18 PM
No updates the last couple of days, been at a big RC sub meet, should be back in the shop and back on the track treadmill Monday...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: J.L. on August 12, 2018, 10:05:53 PM
Chris, you are an incredible machinist. Every piece of metal that touches your hands is destined for precision and purpose.

Everyone is running out of superlatives!

John
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 12, 2018, 10:19:01 PM
Chris, you are an incredible machinist. Every piece of metal that touches your hands is destined for precision and purpose.

Everyone is running out of superlatives!

John


Thanks very much John! Your dioramas are exquisite!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 13, 2018, 10:32:42 PM
I am back from Indiana from the RC submarine meet - if any are interested, here is a thread with a bunch of photos that one of the other guys posted:


https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipOD1R9ilPSMxw8cntS3rROGpC2v3RGvrpxjcC6lS7P4aLjKxDc2c48rFbgPqIhssA?key=T2xJbkpCYlIzOHVHbmNQak1Wa2JaTFJGdjROTEVB
Below is the group shot of all us bubbleheads:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 13, 2018, 10:53:38 PM
Loved the photos.  :ThumbsUp:

Would have liked a photo of the supporting staff (i.e. wives/partners/sons/daughters).  ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on August 13, 2018, 10:59:38 PM
Hey Chris,

Great photos and it looks like you'll had a good turnout. Beautiful location and the water looked a clear as drinking water. Thanks for sharing.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 13, 2018, 11:24:05 PM
Loved the photos.  :ThumbsUp:

Would have liked a photo of the supporting staff (i.e. wives/partners/sons/daughters).  ;D
A couple of the wives and daughters were there too, some are rabid submariners too, one took that photo, others were camera shy.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 13, 2018, 11:25:35 PM
Hey Chris,

Great photos and it looks like you'll had a good turnout. Beautiful location and the water looked a clear as drinking water. Thanks for sharing.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Its a huge pool, concrete, couple feet deep, nice and clear. Its the veterans memorial park and pool in Carmel, wonderfully maintained place.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 15, 2018, 12:08:22 AM
Finally, last of the cuts down the sides of the track plates is done!
(https://s5.postimg.cc/twxzx2ek7/IMG_3292.jpg)
 :whoohoo:
Now, on to the next cut, rounding over the bottom corners on the hinge fingers...
 :facepalm2:
At least these are a single pass each, with the left/right on the table locked down, will go quickly... 

(https://s5.postimg.cc/f0zgphavb/IMG_3293.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 15, 2018, 01:36:51 AM
Finally, last of the cuts down the sides of the track plates is done!

"done"  :lolb: :lolb: :lolb:
gasp, oh man..."done"  :lolb: :lolb: :lolb:
You're breaking my ribs.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 15, 2018, 02:31:35 AM
Finally, last of the cuts down the sides of the track plates is done!

"done"  :lolb: :lolb: :lolb:
gasp, oh man..."done"  :lolb: :lolb: :lolb:
You're breaking my ribs.
I'll take any done I can on these! There are 81 parts, two sides to each, each side had 5 passes. Do the math! That one operation set is done, time for cookies!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 15, 2018, 04:34:31 PM
An hour or so this morning, and the rounding over of the bottom hinge corners is done.
Since Zee is so fond of the 'done' word, thought I'd mention that. Next I can do the next step of shpaing the bottom lugs, until that is done. At least its not dun.   More steps until it is all done.   Done, Da Dun Done, DONE!
 :ROFL:
At least I didn't get in his head by making him think of the Oscar Myer song. Oops! Too late! Its stuck in his head now!    :lolb: :lolb: :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on August 15, 2018, 06:05:10 PM
Just goes to show, machining is just converting large perfectly good bars of metal into small useful parts and large piles of chips!

Or in my case... sometimes.... converting large perfectly good bars of metal into small USELESS parts and large piles of chips!   :wallbang: :lolb:

In this case however, VERY nicely done !!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 15, 2018, 07:01:33 PM
Just goes to show, machining is just converting large perfectly good bars of metal into small useful parts and large piles of chips!

Or in my case... sometimes.... converting large perfectly good bars of metal into small USELESS parts and large piles of chips!   :wallbang: :lolb:

In this case however, VERY nicely done !!!
Yup, that happens too - I use those parts as ballast in my RC boats....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 15, 2018, 07:05:10 PM
Started the next operation, undercutting the ends to form the curved ribs that will come out to the sides of the tracks. Doing this with a 1/4" ball nose end mill and several lighter cuts in from the side.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qaa9l1ldj/IMG_3294.jpg)
Hmm, hard to see details in that photo, here is one from making the prototype that shows it better:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/p7pvxdgev/IMG_3246.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 17, 2018, 07:21:38 PM
And finished the undercuts on the track segments, have started making the 'finger' cuts in the ends.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4w33orhuf/IMG_3295.jpg)
I looked back, and found that I started the track segments (top halfs) back on July 13th, now august 17, and the sign pointing to the turn to the final straight to the finish line on the tracks is almost in sight!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 18, 2018, 01:07:55 AM
The cuts to form the fingers are all done, that step went quickly since it was going through a thin wall, tomorrow will start on the cuts to form the drive lugs on the bottom of the parts...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 18, 2018, 01:43:46 AM
I've been looking up the definition of 'done'.
Wow. Doesn't match anything I've seen here.  :ROFL:
Wrong dictionary? Wrong universe?

It's great work Chris. Quite amazing.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 18, 2018, 01:59:48 AM
I've been looking up the definition of 'done'.
Wow. Doesn't match anything I've seen here.  :ROFL:
Wrong dictionary? Wrong universe?

It's great work Chris. Quite amazing.
Thanks Carl!

Which language dictionary?   :Lol:


And you already know I am not in your silly little 24 hour per day universe!


Though not sure if you have looked up the meaning of a 'step' in a process. Maybe you should have been a software engineer.   :LittleDevil:


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 18, 2018, 05:19:08 AM
Though not sure if you have looked up the meaning of a 'step' in a process. Maybe you should have been a software engineer.   :LittleDevil:

Ouch.

 ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 20, 2018, 12:02:51 AM
Today got the bottom cuts made on the first fifty of the parts. The next step will be to angle cut at each end to form the lug so it slips over the tapered part of the idler wheels.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/srbtn6quf/IMG_3254.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 20, 2018, 12:06:17 AM
I won't say it. I won't say you're not done. I won't say it.

I don't need to.  :lolb: :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 20, 2018, 12:18:22 AM
I won't say it. I won't say you're not done. I won't say it.

I don't need to.  :lolb: :lolb:
I didn't say it either this time!


So, are we done with that?

Oh, crap, I just said Done. Whoops, said it again!
 :Jester:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on August 20, 2018, 01:09:54 AM
How much longer do you figure before these parts are done ?  :Jester: :Jester:

Eric
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 20, 2018, 01:15:13 AM
How much longer do you figure before these parts are done ?  :Jester: :Jester:

Eric
For the tracks, I figure there is a few days of milling, then I can start on cutting the hinge pins and getting them all to run freely. After that need to decide whether to screw or rivet on the top halves, and do that work. So, there will be several more steps to have done, then the tracks will be done. Lots longer till the model is done. Zee's brain frying will be done long before that!


 :Lol:


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on August 20, 2018, 01:17:49 AM
Dog, Dog every time I miss checking on you, you got a pile of work already done. Damn son do you ever give them little fellows a break. You hurting us here Chris an’t None of us can stay up with you Dog and I know this old coonass can’t. Geeez man I would say your right on track......and you know.......I ........like..... :Love:

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 20, 2018, 01:26:58 AM
So, are we done with that?

I think your last post answered that question.  :lolb: :lolb:

Hey...it's really not about being done...but doing it.  ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 20, 2018, 01:46:38 AM
Dog, Dog every time I miss checking on you, you got a pile of work already done. Damn son do you ever give them little fellows a break. You hurting us here Chris an’t None of us can stay up with you Dog and I know this old coonass can’t. Geeez man I would say your right on track......and you know.......I ........like..... :Love:

Don
Thanks Don!


I did take the elves with me to Indiana last week for the submarine races, great time there. Also stopped on the way at the Akron zoo, wonderful place, first time face to face with grizzly bears (good thing the glass is tough).


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Roger B on August 20, 2018, 09:42:02 AM
Still following along and enjoying  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:  :wine1:  I admire your patience in the manufacture of all those track parts  :praise2:  :praise2:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 20, 2018, 07:06:28 PM
Still following along and enjoying  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :wine1:  I admire your patience in the manufacture of all those track parts  :praise2: :praise2:
Glad to have you along for the ride (its a long road but a fun one).
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 20, 2018, 07:08:43 PM
Okay making the turn onto the home stretch for the track plates - the center sections are all hogged out and I have started making the angled cuts on the insides where the bottom lugs will ride on the idler wheels. These lugs are also used to drive the front set of tracks.
Here is the bin-o-parts ready for the angled cuts:

(https://s5.postimg.cc/rscaxnxtz/IMG_3299.jpg)

And the first angled cuts have started...

(https://s5.postimg.cc/900fu395j/IMG_3300.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 21, 2018, 12:06:01 AM
Angled cuts on the inside edges are done, time to start the final milling cuts on the track segments! These are the angled cuts on the side edges, to finish forming the drive lugs.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ipsvnrz9j/IMG_3301.jpg)
These are light cuts, so they go quickly - almost takes longer to swap the parts in and out. Should have these cuts done tomorrow, then will give them a soak in the vibratory tumbler with some ceramic media to debur all the edges. The inside edges of the hinge fingers will likely need a touch on the belt sander, since the ceramic media wont reach into those gaps very well. Then I can start on the hinge pins, and start assembling the bottom links. The tops will be attached either with screws or rivets, likely rivets, but have to make some tests on that - once that is decided the holes can be drilled for them.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 21, 2018, 12:19:17 AM
Just fantastic. It's a lot of work...a lot...and to keep at it says a lot.

Unless it's your elves doing the work. Then I take back everything (good) I said about you.  ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: fumopuc on August 21, 2018, 04:39:02 AM
Hi Chris, impressiv to see all these parts your have made there.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 21, 2018, 01:10:37 PM
Hi Chris, impressiv to see all these parts your have made there.
Thanks, though I hope that my next big project is going to be on wheels rather than tracks again !   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on August 21, 2018, 01:21:28 PM
Yeah but how many? 4 wont cut the mustard!!!! Going to need to be 16 minimum, 32 would be better now if it had 64.........

Hope the guys get the corn in soon......current weather is rubbish! wind rain & a tornado


Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 21, 2018, 01:25:14 PM
Yeah but how many? 4 wont cut the mustard!!!! Going to need to be 16 minimum, 32 would be better now if it had 64.........

Hope the guys get the corn in soon......current weather is rubbish! wind rain & a tornado


Cheers Kerrin
Hmmm, and each wheel has 64 spokes...  Gahh!    :o
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on August 21, 2018, 01:31:10 PM
Stanley Steamer?......

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 21, 2018, 02:27:19 PM
Stanley Steamer?......

Cheers Kerrin
Better be, or Zee will launch an air strike of angry shop gnomes...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 21, 2018, 02:44:33 PM
Stanley Steamer?......

Cheers Kerrin
Better be, or Zee will launch an air strike of angry shop gnomes...

 ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 21, 2018, 03:32:07 PM
Stanley Steamer?......

Cheers Kerrin
Better be, or Zee will launch an air strike of angry shop gnomes...

 ;D
Too bad he has to wait another year for me to finish the steam shovel!
 :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 21, 2018, 03:35:14 PM
This morning I got the final milling cuts made on the first 40 of the plates, and over lunch threw them in the tumbler to debur. A quick touch on the belt sander to debur the edges inside the hinge fingers, and I laid out some of them to show where this is all going. Here is a row face up, face down, and a couple with the tops on too....
(https://s5.postimg.cc/x0pevz68n/IMG_3302.jpg)
This afternoon should see the final cuts on the other half of the parts (too rainy for any outside time).
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on August 21, 2018, 04:06:54 PM
Beautiful job Chris and a whole lot of work now completed.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 21, 2018, 05:18:04 PM
Thanks Thomas!
Just finished milling the angles on the last batch of parts, they are down in the tumbler now getting deburred. Looking forward to getting the hinge pins cut and seeing the tracks in action.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 21, 2018, 05:40:08 PM
Looking forward to getting the hinge pins cut and seeing the tracks in action.

Aren't we all.  :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 21, 2018, 06:47:03 PM
Looking forward to getting the hinge pins cut and seeing the tracks in action.

Aren't we all.  :lolb:
Oh, soooo many zingers come to mind....  (Be good, dont post them...)  :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 21, 2018, 10:04:22 PM
Last shop time for the day, took some lengths of steel rod to the mini chop saw with an abrasive blade, and cut a pile of hinge pins for the tracks. Need to make a little jig to pean over the ends - on the original, they just formed in a notch to push up a nub at each end  to keep the pins from sliding fully into the holes. Not sure if that is do-able on the small scale, want to try it though. May just crown over the ends like a loose rivet.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/z6xhvryfr/IMG_3305.jpg)
Had to try assembling a short section to see how it looks on the track supports:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mfjbp9wdj/IMG_3304.jpg)
and with some of the top caps set on top too:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/n5241n4mv/IMG_3307.jpg)
 :whoohoo:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 21, 2018, 10:30:42 PM
Once assembled...will you be able to see the detail under tread? It'd be a shame if you couldn't. Fantastic work.

Oh, soooo many zingers come to mind....  (Be good, dont post them...)  :LittleDevil:

Oh sure sure. You got nothin'.  :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 21, 2018, 11:56:36 PM
Once assembled...will you be able to see the detail under tread? It'd be a shame if you couldn't. Fantastic work.

.....
Definitely can see the details, - especially on the segments at the ends and the bottom. The details underneath at the center were simplified down for the model, they would not show anyway, and would have required very small mill cutters and undercutting.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/gtwwl8itz/DSC_6160.jpg)


...
Oh, soooo many zingers come to mind....  (Be good, dont post them...)  :LittleDevil:

Oh sure sure. You got nothin'.  :lolb:
Got lots, but this is a family site, and you are not quite old enough for those quotes!!   :LittleDevil:
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 22, 2018, 12:03:45 AM
Good. Very happy that excellent work can be seen.

Re: Zingers...yep...you got nuttin.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 22, 2018, 12:06:34 AM
...
Re: Zingers...yep...you got nuttin.
Whoops! Bookkeeping error, that Stanley Steamer project just moved down the list...   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 22, 2018, 12:48:32 AM
...
Re: Zingers...yep...you got nuttin.
Whoops! Bookkeeping error, that Stanley Steamer project just moved down the list...   :Lol:

Hey! You're not just hurting me.  ;D Everyone here wants to see you do the Stanley.  ;D
Believe me.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 22, 2018, 01:00:17 AM
...
Re: Zingers...yep...you got nuttin.
Whoops! Bookkeeping error, that Stanley Steamer project just moved down the list...   :Lol:

Hey! You're not just hurting me.  ;D Everyone here wants to see you do the Stanley.  ;D
Believe me.
Kidding!   Gotcha!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on August 22, 2018, 12:28:32 PM
I'm guessing you spent as much time tightening and loosening the screws on the clamp as you did with the machining.

I'm sure you'll be glad when that part in done.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 22, 2018, 01:24:02 PM
I'm guessing you spent as much time tightening and loosening the screws on the clamp as you did with the machining.

I'm sure you'll be glad when that part in done.
Oh yes! And picking up the hex wrench where it slipped off under the table...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on August 22, 2018, 01:26:38 PM
Hi Chris,
The parts of the tracks set on the carriage look great!

 :popcorn: :popcorn:

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 22, 2018, 02:57:17 PM
Hi Chris,
The parts of the tracks set on the carriage look great!

 :popcorn: :popcorn:

Cheers Kerrin
:cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 22, 2018, 03:13:15 PM
Did some experimenting with the hinge pin ends this morning. The ends need to be peaned over, or notched, to hold them from sliding out of the tracks. On the real machine, they formed in a small notch, probably with some sort of press or steam hammer, pushing out a portion of the metal beyond the cylinder of the pins at each end. To mimic this, I drilled a hole in some scrap steel to hold the pin upright and used the corner of a cold chisel to make a notch with the excess metal pushed out the sides.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/hiol6dujr/IMG_3308.jpg)
This worked well, and makes a notch similar to the real thing. I also tried just peaning over the end like a rivet:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/x45wqctnb/IMG_3309.jpg)
which also works well, as expected. When testing the pins in the track segments, its clear that the chisel approach will be better for closing in the second end, since there wont be clearance for the balll of the hammer next to the track, since the end of the pin is so far in from the end of the track.
So, I went through and formed one end of all the pins, ready for assembly, and turned my attention to how to attach the top and bottom halves of the tracks. I considered using a small screw, but that would be a LOT of fine drilling, countersinking, and tapping, then would have to trim off the screw ends. Silver soldering would work, but would require pins to hold the parts in alignment, plus lots of cleanup work. So, next way would be a single rivet through the parts - tried that with some 1/16" rod for the rivet. The milling jig works to hold the parts together, just needed to make one small cut to adjust the wall on one side to hold the end finger on the hinge in the right place to center the parts.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/m4kpeqnsn/IMG_3310.jpg)
After drilling, cut and peaned over a bit of 1/16" steel rod - held the parts very well, needed a little filing to bring the head of the rivet down flush. I think I will do a shallow cut with a center drill at each end of the hole to give the rivet heads a place to expand, so I don't file them completely off and have the halves come apart.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7y4yjiknb/IMG_3312.jpg)
Before rivetting them all, I am going to go through and test fit the segments together in case there are any of the hinges that bind, and fix them. Otherwise, it will be very hard to fix any tight spots once the tops are on. This is one of those fiddly stages, went through the same thing making the chains on the Lombard, getting all the sections to move freely.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on August 22, 2018, 03:44:47 PM
Hi Chris,

Looking at the 4th photo, that is an incredible amount of machining to wind up with the final shape. My hat is off to you.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 22, 2018, 06:45:08 PM
Got the segments all trial fit together, found about a dozen with burs that needed filing off in the hinge fingers, and sorted out several where the pivot holes had wandered a bit which gave the tracks a twist. Turns out that the 6 spares were just enough. All of the sections are moving freely, ready to fit the top plates on. The two assemblies on the right side are for the front tracks, the two on the left (shorter) go on the rear.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/i5s39fr1j/IMG_3313.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 22, 2018, 07:09:51 PM
Wow. That is really something. Not too long before it's moving, eh?  ;D

In the scheme of things anyway.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 22, 2018, 07:56:03 PM
Wow. That is really something. Not too long before it's moving, eh?  ;D

In the scheme of things anyway.
Moving under elf push power, anyway! The model currently can roll on the track support wheels, but it will look much better with the tracks wrapped around them. The front track drive wheels will need to be notched for the drive lugs before the tracks can go on, but the rear supports are ready to go. I wanted to wait till the track assemblies were done before notching the drive wheels, so they can match the actual spacing of the lugs, not sure how much slop the notches need to allow the lugs to go on and off the wheels, like the way a bike chain sprocket has rounded tips fir that.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gbritnell on August 22, 2018, 08:13:17 PM
Outstanding work on the tracks Chris! Your patience machining all those links is something else!
gbritnell
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on August 22, 2018, 09:20:54 PM
X2 - Even as patient as George evidently is I suspect those tracks might exceed his level.  Certainly does mine (which is not saying much).
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 22, 2018, 09:25:42 PM
X2 - Even as patient as George evidently is I suspect those tracks might exceed his level.  Certainly does mine (which is not saying much).


Outstanding work on the tracks Chris! Your patience machining all those links is something else!
gbritnell


Thanks guys! Means a lot, given your high quality of work. The size you work at George always stuns me!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on August 22, 2018, 10:15:59 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:

 :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 22, 2018, 11:50:46 PM
About half the holes for the rivets to attach the top/bottom halves are drilled, taking a break this evening to bake another big batch of elf-bribe mint-chocolate-chip-cookies, in recognition of all the work that the shop elves have put in on the tracks this past month or so! For all those with problem shop-gnomes stealing parts and tools, remember that cookies are a sure way to bribe them into being helpful elves rather than nasty gnomes!
 :old:

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 22, 2018, 11:59:01 PM
Oh, and think I forgot to mention before - the bottom half parts for the track segments started out as a little over 14 pounds of 1.5"x3/8" steel bar. After all the milling, the pile was all the way down to 2.2 pounds!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: wagnmkr on August 23, 2018, 11:04:47 AM
That is a LOT of swarf!

You are doing your usual, excellent job Chris.
I hope the elves enjoy the cookies.

Cheers
 
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: J.L. on August 23, 2018, 11:21:05 AM
Hi Chris,

What a superb job you have done drilling al the holes for the pins without having them wander. You mentioned a few holes that could have lead to a twist in the track , but had some spare segments just in case.

Museum grade Chris.  No doubt about it. The engine will probably end up in a static display after shows and demonstrations, but knowing the perfect operation of the model will give you great pleasure.

John

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on August 23, 2018, 12:10:53 PM
Hi Chris,
 No wonder you are baking an over size batch of cookies! Your elves have pulled out the stops on these!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 23, 2018, 02:08:34 PM
Cookies came out great (I was able to sneak a few before the elves dragged them off to one of thier secret vaults).


John, since the fingers were already formed before drilling the holes, it was really a series of shalliw holes, each acting as a guide for the next, and alliwing the chips out. I think that kept them from wandering.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on August 24, 2018, 06:36:52 PM
Oh, and think I forgot to mention before - the bottom half parts for the track segments started out as a little over 14 pounds of 1.5"x3/8" steel bar. After all the milling, the pile was all the way down to 2.2 pounds!

At that ratio I would check your swarf bin to see if the Elf's had done any aircraft  or Stanly Steamer parts.

Great work.

Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 24, 2018, 06:45:01 PM
Oh, and think I forgot to mention before - the bottom half parts for the track segments started out as a little over 14 pounds of 1.5"x3/8" steel bar. After all the milling, the pile was all the way down to 2.2 pounds!

At that ratio I would check your swarf bin to see if the Elf's had done any aircraft  or Stanly Steamer parts.

Great work.

Gerald.
Huh. Yeah, they HAVE been snickering a lot lately!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 24, 2018, 06:51:26 PM
This morning I finished drilling the rivet holes in all the track segments, and did a shallow counterbore in the ends of the holes to give the rivet heads a place to expand into and not get filed off. Then, took a length of 1/16th steel rod, did a couple tests to determine length, and cut off a pile of rivet blanks. Using a bit of flat bar as a spacer between the lugs on the bottom plate, started riveting on the tops. So far I have about a 1/4 of them done:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/713l7ja93/IMG_3317.jpg)
I had stopped after the first handful to check fit, turns out that some of them bind a little where the rounded over portion of the finger was not taken down quite enough. A touch on the belt sander in those spots, and they pivot freely, so I am continuing on with the riveting.

The finish line on the tracks is in sight (hopefully it is not tied across the back of a truck driving away....)

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: JC54 on August 24, 2018, 11:22:19 PM
Just as an aside Chris, where I live in UK 10 miles south of Grantham, Lincolnshire. The village that I lived in  Woolsthorpe had 2 claims to fame. 1 the birthplace of Sir Isaac Newton and 2 the opencast iron ore mining. In my childhood the stone after blasting was removed mostly by electric powered "Navvies" In North pit there was the biggest "navvy" of all called by all as "The Marion" I cannot remember if this was electric or diesel powered but if anyone is interested can find out from some of "the old boys" and hopefully find pictures. I can remember that the arrangement of bucket and jib was the same as your Marion. The other type of "digger" that was used in some of the local pits was the "Dragline". I will add that I can remember the iron ore being loaded into railway trucks and pulled by 'steam locos'. Some of which are now restored and running at a local museum. John
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on August 25, 2018, 12:24:15 AM
Nice work Chris  !!   There are lots of references in the Graces Guide on these vehicles ...however they were free to look at ...but now one has to pay, quite a lot :( :(

Willy
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 25, 2018, 12:54:34 AM
Just as an aside Chris, where I live in UK 10 miles south of Grantham, Lincolnshire. The village that I lived in  Woolsthorpe had 2 claims to fame. 1 the birthplace of Sir Isaac Newton and 2 the opencast iron ore mining. In my childhood the stone after blasting was removed mostly by electric powered "Navvies" In North pit there was the biggest "navvy" of all called by all as "The Marion" I cannot remember if this was electric or diesel powered but if anyone is interested can find out from some of "the old boys" and hopefully find pictures. I can remember that the arrangement of bucket and jib was the same as your Marion. The other type of "digger" that was used in some of the local pits was the "Dragline". I will add that I can remember the iron ore being loaded into railway trucks and pulled by 'steam locos'. Some of which are now restored and running at a local museum. John
It would be interesting to see what info and pictures you can find on them. The big companies like Marion, Bucyrus  etc all made steam and electric versions of the shovels, and also dragline and dredge models.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 25, 2018, 12:55:40 AM
Nice work Chris  !!   There are lots of references in the Graces Guide on these vehicles ...however they were free to look at ...but now one has to pay, quite a lot :( :(

Willy
Thanks Willy!  Too bad Graces has changed, it was a great resource.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 25, 2018, 12:58:22 AM
All of the tops are rivetted on, some fettling to do tomorrow to free up some sticky joints then I can try fitting the rear tracks onto the supports. Once that is done I will start on cutting the drive wheel notches, probably a wood test piece first to test spacing.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on August 25, 2018, 01:40:23 AM
Nice work Chris  !!   There are lots of references in the Graces Guide on these vehicles ...however they were free to look at ...but now one has to pay, quite a lot :( :(

Willy
Thanks Willy!  Too bad Graces has changed, it was a great resource.

Hi Chris , yes , i was slowly looking through them from 1853  but, only got to 1896 before they started to charge  :(
 
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 26, 2018, 01:00:29 AM
Not much shop time today, outside family stuff with some excellent weather and time spent diagnosing a misfire issue in my Miata (bad control wires at the coilpacks), but I did get the two front track assemblies fettled up so they pivot nice and freely. Also tried wrapping them around the track supports, and it looks like I miscounted the number of segments needed, but it a good way - will have a couple more spares (better than coming up short!). Should be able to get the rear tracks tweaked up and on the supports tomorrow, pictures then, maybe a video of it rolling on the table top...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 26, 2018, 04:33:59 PM
And we have liftoff! 
 :pinkelephant:
Well, Roll-Off, I guess! 

 :whoohoo: :cartwheel:
This morning I got the rest of the track segments limbered up, would have gone quicker if I had taken a little more off with the round-over bit when milling. There was a number of places where the rounded off portions of the hinge fingers rubbed on the tops - I should have taken them down closer to the flats on the mill cutter originally.

Here is what they look like assembled on the rear track support:

(https://s5.postimg.cc/a44ru93kn/IMG_3320.jpg)

Here is a short video clip showing them rolling freely on the table. The front axles were adjusted to keep the track lugs captured, but not stretching on them so they turned on their own.

[youtube1]https://youtu.be/Z7Zzp4lnndM[/youtube1]

And the front tracks ready for cutting the drive slots in the drive wheels on the front track supports:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/iz5m4rknb/IMG_3322.jpg)
Next step will be to rivet the second sides on the rear track hinge pins, now that I know they are working fine.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 26, 2018, 04:44:22 PM
Wow! Fantastic.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

The video was great.

I shouldn't be surprised how realistic everything looks.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: sco on August 26, 2018, 04:51:46 PM
Great work Chris - still following this awesome project,

Simon.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on August 26, 2018, 05:28:25 PM
Chris,
Your work continues to be astounding!  Love the rolling treads. Thanks for posting the video.  I didn't hear you making vroom-vroom sounds though. Maybe I didn't turn the sound up loud enough?  :Lol:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on August 26, 2018, 05:30:13 PM
Outstanding!! You're really makin' tracks now....

Groan.

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on August 26, 2018, 05:40:20 PM
Hello Chris,

That has to make you feel really good to see how smooth the tracks work, great job.

Have a nice day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 26, 2018, 06:18:57 PM
Chris,
Your work continues to be astounding!  Love the rolling treads. Thanks for posting the video.  I didn't hear you making vroom-vroom sounds though. Maybe I didn't turn the sound up loud enough?  :Lol:
Kim
Um, the tracks drowned me out... Yeah, thats it...   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 26, 2018, 06:19:42 PM
Outstanding!! You're really makin' tracks now....

Groan.

Pete


 ^-^
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 26, 2018, 06:21:55 PM
Thanks guys, its really satisfying to see it move well after so many hours of work! Celebrating with some fresh chocolate chip cookies...  ^-^
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: mklotz on August 26, 2018, 06:39:42 PM
Fondling those beautiful tracks must make all those long hours of repetitive tedium cutting them just slide right out of your memory.  Isn't it wonderful that this hobby can make that happen?

Now, if I could only find a hobby that would make some other events (and people) slide right out of my memory.  Sigh.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 26, 2018, 09:14:11 PM
Fondling those beautiful tracks must make all those long hours of repetitive tedium cutting them just slide right out of your memory.  Isn't it wonderful that this hobby can make that happen?

Now, if I could only find a hobby that would make some other events (and people) slide right out of my memory.  Sigh.
I think they call that hobby 'distilling'! 

I'll stick with this hobby, at least I can remember it....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on August 27, 2018, 12:08:38 AM
Hi Chris,  saw this on the web  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIjKXCJMZ9o
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 27, 2018, 12:18:37 AM
Hi Chris,  saw this on the web  [youtube1]https://youtu.be/fIjKXCJMZ9o[/youtube1]
Nice one!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on August 27, 2018, 12:46:53 AM
And the wheels on the bus go round and round (sorry Zee)  :lolb:  Awesome Chris  :cheers:

Eric
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dave Otto on August 27, 2018, 12:48:41 AM
Nicely done Chris!

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 27, 2018, 01:07:52 AM
And the wheels on the bus go round and round (sorry Zee)  :lolb:  Awesome Chris  :cheers:

Eric
To put new verses in Zees head:  And the tracks on the shovel go Clankety Clank!
Thanks Eric!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 27, 2018, 01:09:33 AM
Nicely done Chris!

Dave
Thanks Dave!


Just been playing in Fusion to figure out the geometry of cutting the drive wheel notches with the rotary table - sort of a wierd sub-case of cutting tapered spokes....  I think I need some cookies while pondering this one...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on August 27, 2018, 07:52:15 AM
Hi Chris,
 Very nice! They roll rather well!

BUT the voice in the head goes” The tracks on the Marion go Clankety Clank, Clankety Clank......” AHHHHHHHH!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on August 27, 2018, 12:16:58 PM
I'm sure the lyrics to "Marian the Librarian" (Music Man) could be suitably altered as a theme song.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 27, 2018, 01:20:44 PM
I'm just staying quiet here. You all are quite capable of causing damaging all on your own.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 27, 2018, 06:25:22 PM
Okay, it took some playing around in Fusion with the layout to figure out the match for milling the drive lug notches in the drive wheels for the front tracks, and a couple tries on a wood test blank to verify it, but it worked out. Here is the sketch of the drive wheel notches I made:

Using the angles and dimensions from that, I set up the rotary table with the blank, centered and zeroed the handwheels, then moved the table back by .368" + .062 - .012. This is the distance from the drawing, plus half the cutter diameter, minus .012 to make the notch a loose fit so the lugs would rotate in cleanly. The rotary table was turned 29.3 degrees clockwise, lining up the edge of the cutter with the edge of the notch, and a series of .150 deep cuts made at 40 degree intervals.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/92r7jm76v/IMG_3328.jpg)
Then the table was moved back forward to the zero starting position, and the same distance out, and the rotary table turned 29.3 degrees counterclockwise, and another set of cuts made.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9s9zvzfg7/IMG_3329.jpg)
Then the tables moved back to the zero positions, and the nub left in the center of the notches milled out. That completed one side of the wheel. The wheel was turned over, lined up so the notches would be even with each other on the two sides, and the process repeated. Here is the blank being tested in the tracks:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tznfoaknb/IMG_3332.jpg)
All moved freely, except for sticking at the same spot in the track each time - I checked that track segment, and found its lug is slightly wider than the rest so it will be filed back to proper size. This made me also realize that I should cut and test the wheels BEFORE riveting the pins in for good, just in case there are any tracks with the hinge pin holes too close or too far apart. In case any are found, I can swap them with parts from the rear tracks, which have no drive wheels.
So far so good!   :)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Firebird on August 27, 2018, 06:57:51 PM
 :popcorn: :ThumbsUp: :popcornsmall:  :praise2:

Cheers

Rich
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: wagnmkr on August 27, 2018, 08:56:27 PM
 :popcorn:

Don't look Jo ... he's working with  >:D brown stuff now!.

Tom
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jo on August 27, 2018, 08:59:30 PM
Don't look Jo ... he's working with  >:D brown stuff now!.

:disappointed:

Not a casting to be seen either  :stickpoke:

Jo
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Johnmcc69 on August 27, 2018, 09:24:57 PM
Great work Chris!
 How did you line up the slot(s) when you flipped it over to do the other side?
Did you just "eyeball" it or indicate it in?

 John
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 27, 2018, 10:14:17 PM
Don't look Jo ... he's working with  >:D brown stuff now!.

 :disappointed:

Not a casting to be seen either  :stickpoke:

Jo
Though could you consider rolled out steel to be a sort of casting... just a really really rectangular one?   Hmmm.... Nope!   :ROFL:
I've been working with lots of the brown stuff (they have started calling it 'wood' for the technically minded) lately. I've started on a plug for another submarine (WWII German experimental Delphin) that I will make a silicone mold from and then 'cast' it in fiberglass cloth and resin. I used the Sherline to turn the main hull sections (two halves since the lathe is not long enough to do it in one piece).

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 27, 2018, 10:16:07 PM
Great work Chris!
 How did you line up the slot(s) when you flipped it over to do the other side?
Did you just "eyeball" it or indicate it in?

 John
For the wood test piece, I drew a line on the side and lined it up with the table both ways. For the real steel ones, its not an issue since the drive wheels are still un-joined, so all I need to do is line up one of the spoke holes the same in the vise each time and they will come out the same, then just a matter of lining up the halves when they are Loctited together later on.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 27, 2018, 10:22:50 PM
Sicne the wood test part (well, the third or fourth time) was a success, on to making the cuts in the real drive wheels, made earlier when the idlers where made. The same process was done, offsetting and cutting one side of the notches:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/y8wr46ifb/IMG_3333.jpg)
Then the other:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/q3ep619lz/IMG_3334.jpg)
And a final cut in the center to clean out the nub and smooth the bottom of the notch:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/a55zfw7o7/IMG_3335.jpg)
Note that in these operations it is only on half of the wheel, the two sides are not joined permenantly yet, so each half was lined up in the same in the chuck by linnng up one spoke hole straight to the right.
Here both halves of the first drive wheel have been notched, and test fit in the track - working very well, so will do the other drive wheel next...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/x6mklnmrb/IMG_3338.jpg)
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 28, 2018, 12:58:58 AM
One more short session in the shop this evening, got the other drive wheel notched. Now that the procedure is worked out (and carefully written down) it only took a few minutes per side - first one took a day and a half!
Here are the parts, ready to test with the tracks and once running well, will rivet the second side of the hinge pins for good.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/vnvru40c7/IMG_3339.jpg)
Been working on the track segments for so long, its nice to be doing other parts again!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 28, 2018, 01:16:13 AM
Did I say fantastic?
I think I did.
I'll say it again..

Fantastic.

You've found the perfect combination of cookies and elves.

Note...that means they're doing the machining. You're just baking.

Crud. I don't mean 'just baking'. Baking is another skill that some have and many of us don't.

T has been working on getting French style baquettes.
It's one of those things that you ask...do I tell her they're great! (and she stops) or tell her she's close! (and she keeps trying).
It's a hard choice. I love her bread.
I love her bread.
(She has recently been producing certain buns that...really...are the the best ever.)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on August 28, 2018, 01:19:43 AM
Damn dog I just got to jump in here. Geeez man that is awesome work you are on track for sure. Love all the detail work Chris outstanding work for a man with a bunch of elf’s.... :lolb:
Now did I say ........I..........like.........  : :Love:

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Chester on August 28, 2018, 04:44:09 AM
Great work Chris, this build has become my daily inspiration. The modeling you accomplish, whether your alum are, subs, or Marion, just contributes so much to this community. I’m always learning something and it really is a pleasure
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Chester on August 28, 2018, 04:45:22 AM
That was supposed to be Lumbard!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on August 28, 2018, 06:10:47 AM
Amazing, as always, Chris!  That's some mighty fine machining   :) :ThumbsUp:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jo on August 28, 2018, 08:04:09 AM
I've been working with lots of the brown stuff (they have started calling it 'wood' for the technically minded) lately.

Wood is the name given to the stuff I cremate in the winter to keep my house warm, I feel it is a fitting end for it :naughty: I'll let you work in it and I'll ( try to) stick to our castings ;)

Chris, have you worked out where you are going to keep this lot when it is finished, your house must be filling up rather fast :noidea:

Jo
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jasonb on August 28, 2018, 09:25:58 AM
It's comming along well Chris, I'm just quietly following along.

As for wood, just think that if some people were not happy to work with it there would be no patterns to make all those castings from ;)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 28, 2018, 01:57:07 PM
That was supposed to be Lumbard!
'Lumber'd for the test piece?!   :Lol:

My 'Lombard' is sitting on the cabinet next to the workbench watching the Marion take shape!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 28, 2018, 02:00:00 PM
I've been working with lots of the brown stuff (they have started calling it 'wood' for the technically minded) lately.

Wood is the name given to the stuff I cremate in the winter to keep my house warm, I feel it is a fitting end for it :naughty: I'll let you work in it and I'll ( try to) stick to our castings ;)

Chris, have you worked out where you are going to keep this lot when it is finished, your house must be filling up rather fast :noidea:

Jo
I haven't figured that one out yet, going to have to rearrange some smaller works to make a big space, may have to use the Marion to dig a foundation for another room!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 28, 2018, 02:00:38 PM
It's comming along well Chris, I'm just quietly following along.

As for wood, just think that if some people were not happy to work with it there would be no patterns to make all those castings from ;)
Good point!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 28, 2018, 04:07:34 PM
Last night I loctited the drive wheel halves together and to the axles, and did a test fit on the track supports. Turns out the 3D model had the tracks a little loose around the wheels, so I had to take out one segment to get them to fit in the adjustment range of the front idler (checked the dimensions of the tracks to plan, and the supports, they were all good). Things run fairly smooth, there are a couple of lugs that are slightly large that need some filing - will do that then start final riveting.
Here is what they all look like now:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/j3i9ne36f/IMG_3341.jpg)
And the obligatory video to prove that they work:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zD5P6XZqS9w
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on August 28, 2018, 04:45:41 PM
Hi Chris,

I still check in here for my daily 'fix' . . . well, when you're not idling around by the pool  :stickpoke:

I don't keep commenting, partly for fear of making the elves big-headed and unmanageable, and partly because I'm lost for words much of the time, but that has been some exceptional work even by your standards and a masterclass in setting up and machining . . . not to mention patience  :praise2:

As for the brown stuff, someone explained to me years ago that, while engineers work to thousandths of an inch, cabinetmakers have to be exact  :naughty:

 :cheers:

Mike.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 28, 2018, 05:20:25 PM
I'm losing words too. I'll go with  :o :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :o :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 28, 2018, 06:24:38 PM
Thanks guys, much appreciated!!
I just finished tweaking the few sticky joints on the tracks, turns out the lugs were not the issue, there were a couple of burs on the edges of the notches in the drive wheels, and a couple of tracks that had tall sides on the fingers, making the segments stick in the flat-open position just a bit. All now running smooth, and I can start on riveting the pins in place. I did a couple of tests, and using the corner of a cold chisel to expand out the edge like I experimented with last week is the easiest, and the chisel can reach down past the overhanging track tops. A bit of metal in the vise serves as a backing iron (used one of the scrap top pieces).
Pics and video of it all moving once the riveting is done, time to head outside (not for too long, it is a hot one out there today!).
 :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 28, 2018, 08:31:42 PM
I got the pins in the first track all rivetted, about to do the final one, and had a rethink... Since it is a pain in the patootie to disassemble the axles of the track supports to remove the tracks intact, I am going to make the final one a master link, with a shcs in the end to retain it in the hole. The head is slightly larger than the hinge pin, so it cant slide through, but will alliw easy removal. A little bees wax on the threads will make them slightly sticky and not self unscrew (old archer trick to keep field tips from unscrewing from the insert)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on August 28, 2018, 11:58:32 PM
Amazing Chris.... :facepalm: .....with the drive keyed or locked between the pair of rear float tracks, did the front pair [which are just the driven pair] ever get out of sequence and create a duck waddle traverse movement?....possibly when traversing a corner?.....or do the inboard float tracks just slide rather than rotate?

I looked back at a few video's of full size, but couldn't see it happening

Again...a marvellous dedication to model engineering  :facepalm2:

Derek  :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 29, 2018, 12:33:32 AM
Hi Derek,


The front tracks are locked together, no differential, and the rear two freewheel independantly.  I have a copy if the video dvd that the HCEA sells, which has footage of Model 92s crawling, but only straight. The turn radius would have been fairly large since the rear tracks dont steer that far, and the shovel had a top speed of a blistering half mile an hour. So, give it was on dirt and rock surfaces, there would have to have been slippage of the treads on the ground, but I doubt they cared. Since the front drive axle was fixed to both sides, just universals in it, the treads would have stayed synced.




Its interesting that in the original patent, they showed the rear tracks being driven by a separate engine on the rear track support. That would have made for all sorts of sync and speed issues, but apparently they never sold that combination.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on August 29, 2018, 06:48:36 AM
Sorry Chris.....I am going to have to go back to 100 or so pages in this thread to see the 3D images of the drive system & get it squarely in my mind as to which assembly bogie chassis & pair of float track skids drives & pivots

Because certainly I must have had the term of the front & rear back to front  :Doh:......but as you say, steering when crawling was obviously not a prominent consideration or number compared to buckets per day or tons per shift etc

Derek ..edit.....see image

"so the rear set is turned side to side by the steering engine and worm gear at the back"......this is also the pivot  ...this is also not "the rear two freewheel independantly"

So the text also confirms the front set can also be driven when a clutch is engaged from the hoist engine.......will you be driving the model from both sets of drives?...or just the rear or steering set?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gunna on August 29, 2018, 10:05:08 AM
I can't sit by any more Chris without owning up, like so many others here, to having read this build daily from day one. I never cease to be amazed and entertained and just had to say so.
Still watching,
Ian.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Baner on August 29, 2018, 11:56:43 AM
Outstanding work on the tracks Chris, they look awesome!
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Dave.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 29, 2018, 01:35:44 PM
Sorry Chris.....I am going to have to go back to 100 or so pages in this thread to see the 3D images of the drive system & get it squarely in my mind as to which assembly bogie chassis & pair of float track skids drives & pivots

Because certainly I must have had the term of the front & rear back to front  :Doh: ......but as you say, steering when crawling was obviously not a prominent consideration or number compared to buckets per day or tons per shift etc

Derek ..edit.....see image

"so the rear set is turned side to side by the steering engine and worm gear at the back"......this is also the pivot  ...this is also not "the rear two freewheel independantly"

So the text also confirms the front set can also be driven when a clutch is engaged from the hoist engine.......will you be driving the model from both sets of drives?...or just the rear or steering set?
When I said the two rear ones freewheel, I meant that the track segments freewheel on the supports, not that the rear track supports turns freely. The rear support is turned side to side by the steering engine and worm gears. On the support, the track segments on each side move independantly of each other. So, the front tracks drive but do not pivot, the rear tracks pivot but do not drive.

On the model, as on the real engine, the front tracks, which are fixed to face forward only, are driven from the hoist engine when the dog clutch on the middle axle is engaged (and presumably the hoist drum clutch is disengaged). The rear tracks will be steered as on the original. 

Hope that helps?


When I get the tracks all assembled on I'll do a video showing the drive and steering arrangement.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 29, 2018, 01:38:11 PM
I can't sit by any more Chris without owning up, like so many others here, to having read this build daily from day one. I never cease to be amazed and entertained and just had to say so.
Still watching,
Ian.
Outstanding work on the tracks Chris, they look awesome!
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Dave.
Thanks guys, great to have you along!
Somewhere down under there is a museum that has some of the big shovels that they run at their events, have seen videos from it. Sorry, don't recall where, but if you are nearby it looks like a great place to visit!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 29, 2018, 07:31:53 PM
Major milestone day! The tracks are all rivetted together (final pin has a screw for disassembly) and are on the model, all turning well!
 :whoohoo:
 :pinkelephant:
 :cartwheel:
 8)
Okay, enough jumping around (for the moment), here is a video to prove its all there, and to explain how the steering works. The rear tracks do the steering, the front tracks will be connected to the hoist engine gear train.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJ0pQnF5iCw
And also a set of family shots with all the parts so far:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5xpfvcts7/IMG_3343.jpg)
Rear tracks:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/rwvuik2wn/IMG_3345.jpg\)
Front tracks:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/hmtfjc06f/IMG_3348.jpg)
Main boom assembly:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4inv6n0ev/IMG_3349.jpg)
Overall view:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/uqyzw0zxz/IMG_3351.jpg)
Time to share some cookies with the shop elves, out of the smaller bucket they 3D printed...
(https://s5.postimg.cc/byn4spqrr/IMG_3353.jpg)
Thanks to all who have been following along so far, still a long way to go to get there!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 29, 2018, 07:42:41 PM
Wow. What a model! What a fantastic job! What elves!

I can't say enough.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Very happy for you.  :pinkelephant:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on August 29, 2018, 08:09:52 PM
It's beautiful!!! It's huge!!! And it's big enough to ride on!!! Wheee!!

Outstanding model. Excellent work.  :ThumbsUp:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on August 29, 2018, 08:12:25 PM
Chris--Absolutely awesome.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: sco on August 29, 2018, 09:38:04 PM
It is a monster isn't it - it's longer than I thought it would be!

Simon.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 29, 2018, 09:45:25 PM
It's beautiful!!! It's huge!!! And it's big enough to ride on!!! Wheee!!

Outstanding model. Excellent work.  :ThumbsUp:

Pete


Sit carefully, the boiler is at the back!!   :o
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 29, 2018, 09:47:27 PM
It is a monster isn't it - it's longer than I thought it would be!

Simon.
As it sits on the table, its 4'7" x 18" wide, 21" tall.  Pocket size! 
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Johnmcc69 on August 29, 2018, 10:44:24 PM
Yer gonna need a bigger bench...

 Might need to invest in a casting type "trolley" like Jo has to take her "little ones" out & about...

 Really great work Chris!

 John
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 29, 2018, 10:49:22 PM
Yer gonna need a bigger bench...

I've got room.

And better cookies.  ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 29, 2018, 10:55:11 PM
Yer gonna need a bigger bench...

I've got room.

And better cookies.  ;D
Room, yes.


Cookies?   Pfffftthh!   :Lol:    if you did you would have better elves!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on August 29, 2018, 11:18:13 PM
Even the sound  :hammerbash: of the metal slatted tracks walking around those pinions sounds just like a full sized tracked vehicles of today  :ThumbsUp:

[PS...thanks for the drive clarification ...I had to go back 129 pages to post number 1 & work forward]
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dave Otto on August 30, 2018, 12:59:15 AM
Impressive work Chris!


Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on August 30, 2018, 09:21:10 AM
Hi Chris,
 The team has done a tremendous job!
Looking very very good.

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on August 30, 2018, 02:53:02 PM
wow, amazing, and now you've got something to collect all that swarf with !!  11/10 !! :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on August 30, 2018, 04:35:00 PM
Damn Dog I am at awwww, geeez man that is just to cool and excellent craftsmanship Chris. Great attention to details and very realistic to boot. Your the man Chris and ......I.........like....... :Love:
 :praise2:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gbritnell on August 30, 2018, 07:21:00 PM
Hi Chris,
When it's assembled like that it's a truly impressive. The bits and pieces are great but the whole is so much better than the parts!
gbritnell
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 30, 2018, 08:10:13 PM
Thanks all, glad you are enjoying the build, I sure am! 


Almost a year in, probably another one to go!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Alan Haisley on August 30, 2018, 08:58:38 PM

Really lovely work.

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 31, 2018, 09:01:08 PM
The next parts are going to be the steering gear for the rear tracks. There will be a small two cylinder steam engine at the rear of the frame, driving a couple of standard gears to a shaft that runs forward under the floor to a worm and pinion gear, which drives me he long acme threaded rod across the frames, which moves the tiller.


That rod is a 1/4-16 acme thread, and some experiments make me think that I can use a normal gear as the second gear in the pair to make the right angle turn. It looks like a 50 tooth, 1" diameter gear, cut with a module .6 nbr 8 cutter, which I have, will work out. That diameter would normally be a 40 tooth, but for this if the teeth are cut slightly shallower and closer together than normal it appears to mesh with the acme teeth well. Real test will require cutting the gear, so that is the next step....


Stay tuned, same elf channel...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 31, 2018, 10:50:33 PM
Almost a year in, probably another one to go!

I'm less than a year in...but probably another one to go! We may be celebrating at the same time.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 31, 2018, 10:51:25 PM
Stay tuned, same elf channel...

Same elf time? Probably wouldn't matter. You're in a different universe.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 31, 2018, 11:20:45 PM
Stay tuned, same elf channel...

Same elf time? Probably wouldn't matter. You're in a different universe.
Very pretty sunsets over here....  Couple of them per day, surrounded by those moons....

 :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 31, 2018, 11:38:34 PM
This evening I set up for the gear cutting, part turned to diameter and the chuck moved over to the rotary table, which was set up vertically. Centered the gear cutter (nbr 8, Module 0.6) on the blank, and set depth of cut to 0.050", then cut 50 teeth into the blank. As I mentioned before, this is more teeth than would normally be used on this diameter gear, but it worked out to fit the 1/4x16 Acme thread on the rod.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/cx8jrypt3/IMG_3354.jpg)
Tested the rod against the gear, spacing looks pretty good, but the points of the teeth bottom out. Not unexpected for this setup.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kd7tdrl87/IMG_3355.jpg)
So, next step was to put in a 1/4" diameter end mill, center it horizontally on where the gear will be on  the blank, and move the table back to take a .006" cut into the gear - with the motor on, cranked the rotary table around once to form a shallow groove in the teeth.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/90v7vyx3r/IMG_3356.jpg)
This makes the shape more like the usual worm and pinion gears, and the acme thread sits in it better now. One thing I did not do was tilt the rotary table up to angle the teeth to match the thread angle, but it appears to run fine as is. The chuck was moved back over to the lathe, the outer corners of the teeth rounded with a file, and the gear was parted off - also rounded the other corners with the file before completing the parting-off.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/66s2ijpsn/IMG_3358.jpg)
Here is the finished gear and rod, from this angle you can see how the rod sits into the depression in the teeth. The shadows make it look like the centers of the teeth just under thee rod are missing, but they are there.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/wf377x26f/IMG_3359.jpg)
Next step is to cut off a short section of the rod and fit it onto a longer round rod, then turn down the end of the long rod to fit into the hole in the gear. The turned down section will be long enough to form the bearing surfaces to hold the rod and gear in the gearbox (still to be made). The far end of the rod will be trimmed to length and another round end turned in to fit into the holder on that side.
This render from the 3D model gives a better idea of where this is all going:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/pompyl9wn/Rear_Tracks.png)

The gear I just made will be inside the gearbox at the right side of that picture, the threaded rod extends out of that, through the end of the tiller arm on the rear track support, and into the support at the top of the picture. The rod through the short section of the worm gear will go back to the gears in the lower left, the small one being on the crankshaft of the steering engine.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 01, 2018, 12:37:27 AM
I can't express how much I'm learning on this thread.
(Although there may be some things I'd like to unlearn.)  ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Johnmcc69 on September 01, 2018, 01:40:32 AM
Wow Chris, very nice job with that bit of gear cutting!

  :ThumbsUp:

 John
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 01, 2018, 03:44:07 AM
Thanks guys, got lucky that I had a cutter the right size, got it to di the crowd gears. The other alternative was to use a worm gear from a guitar tuner pist, as was suggested to me a while back. This worked out better than I expected.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jo on September 01, 2018, 06:37:42 AM
Looks good Chris,

It is not clear from your gear cutting pics but did you have the dividing head tilted at a slight angle to allow the gear teeth to properly align to the angle of the threads on the Acme Thread  :thinking:

Jo
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 01, 2018, 02:11:35 PM
Looks good Chris,

It is not clear from your gear cutting pics but did you have the dividing head tilted at a slight angle to allow the gear teeth to properly align to the angle of the threads on the Acme Thread  :thinking:

Jo
As I mentioned in the text, the rotab was level for this one, but it still meshed very well. I decided to try it flat to see how it worked, figured that I could tilt it and make a second if needed, but it didnt need it. The thread profile on the cutter is an involute, not an acme, anyway, lucky it worked as well as it did. The tilt would have been just a few degrees, and I think it would have made for a loose fit.


Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 02, 2018, 12:23:02 AM
Well, bit of a boo-boo detected (no, not Yogi's little friend, but the brain-fart kind).
 :zap:
I was laying out the dimensions and picking stock for the worm gear case, and things were not adding up. Turns out that the spur gear should have been 1.5" diameter, not the 1" diameter that I made. With the smaller gear, the incoming shaft and the outgoing worm shaft would not line up right, so it needs to be the larger size.

 :facepalm2:
Good part is that I have the procedure down (and practised once  :Lol: ) so making the replacement should be quick. The new gear will be 1.5" diameter with 75 teeth. In the meantime, I had started cutting the long worm gear to length and turning in the smaller shafts at the ends where it pivots - fortunately that work is all okay!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on September 02, 2018, 01:21:51 AM
Geez Chris, will you SLOW DOWN, i'm spending half my life just trying to keep current on thus thread.  >:D

Fantastic work.  Following this build is just fantastic. :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 02, 2018, 01:25:35 AM
Geez Chris, will you SLOW DOWN, i'm spending half my life just trying to keep current on thus thread.  >:D

Fantastic work.  Following this build is just fantastic. :popcorn:
Then I shouldn't tell you that I have finished a year ago and am posting slow?


NOT!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 02, 2018, 01:55:36 AM
Geez Chris, will you SLOW DOWN, i'm spending half my life just trying to keep current on thus thread.  >:D

Fantastic work.  Following this build is just fantastic. :popcorn:
Then I shouldn't tell you that I have finished a year ago and am posting slow?


NOT!


 :cheers:

I could believe that except my spies tell me otherwise.
Oh...didn't I tell you? Don't trust your elves.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 02, 2018, 02:15:30 AM
Geez Chris, will you SLOW DOWN, i'm spending half my life just trying to keep current on thus thread.  >:D

Fantastic work.  Following this build is just fantastic. :popcorn:
Then I shouldn't tell you that I have finished a year ago and am posting slow?


NOT!


 :cheers:

I could believe that except my spies tell me otherwise.
Oh...didn't I tell you? Don't trust your elves.
MY elves are trustworthy.  I wouldn't trust yours.  Especially since I have a few of mine in your shop, moving crossheads and such...   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 02, 2018, 02:27:30 AM
Geez Chris, will you SLOW DOWN, i'm spending half my life just trying to keep current on thus thread.  >:D

Fantastic work.  Following this build is just fantastic. :popcorn:
Then I shouldn't tell you that I have finished a year ago and am posting slow?


NOT!


 :cheers:

I could believe that except my spies tell me otherwise.
Oh...didn't I tell you? Don't trust your elves.
MY elves are trustworthy.  I wouldn't trust yours.  Especially since I have a few of mine in your shop, moving crossheads and such...   :Lol:

Aha! He admits it! You do realize "this means war".  :lolb:

P.S. You should still question the trusthworthiness of your elves. I question mine and have no problem doing so.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 02, 2018, 02:45:29 AM
Geez Chris, will you SLOW DOWN, i'm spending half my life just trying to keep current on thus thread.  >:D

Fantastic work.  Following this build is just fantastic. :popcorn:
Then I shouldn't tell you that I have finished a year ago and am posting slow?


NOT!


 :cheers:

I could believe that except my spies tell me otherwise.
Oh...didn't I tell you? Don't trust your elves.
MY elves are trustworthy.  I wouldn't trust yours.  Especially since I have a few of mine in your shop, moving crossheads and such...   :Lol:

Aha! He admits it! You do realize "this means war".  :lolb:

P.S. You should still question the trusthworthiness of your elves. I question mine and have no problem doing so.
Ah, a Bugs Bunny fan!  Knew there was something good about you!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 02, 2018, 02:59:23 AM
Ah, a Bugs Bunny fan!  Knew there was something good about you!

Oh I think you knew. I believe I've posted my philosophy of life before...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXXpqMSNevE
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 02, 2018, 04:14:14 AM
Ah, a Bugs Bunny fan!  Knew there was something good about you!

Oh I think you knew. I believe I've posted my philosophy of life before...

[youtube1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXXpqMSNevE[/youtube1]


 :ROFL: :lolb: :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on September 02, 2018, 07:04:38 AM
LOVE IT!

Must get grandsons into these guys! Working on them for Wallace & Gromett, oh & Shaun The Sheep.......Blackadder May have to wait until they are a bit older!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on September 02, 2018, 01:17:24 PM
With only a year to go, it ought to be finished about the same time as Zee's popcorn engine.   :mischief:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 02, 2018, 01:56:20 PM
With only a year to go, it ought to be finished about the same time as Zee's popcorn engine.   :mischief:
If he hurries...   :stickpoke:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 02, 2018, 02:05:06 PM
Anyone else having trouble knowing what thread they're reading?
I suspect more than one of you is confused.

 :cussing:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on September 02, 2018, 02:13:02 PM
Hay Zee,
If we stayed on topic it wouldn't be half as much fun!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 02, 2018, 02:48:23 PM
Anyone else having trouble knowing what thread they're reading?
I suspect more than one of you is confused.

 :cussing:
Huh. I wonder who keeps sidetracking it...  Of course this is the Stanley Steamer thread. No, wait, the submarines... No, thats not it...


 :Lol:


Anyway, am about to go cut the disc for the replacement steering gear blank...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 02, 2018, 06:33:15 PM
The proper size gear was cut from a disc sawn off a longer bar, mounted on an arbor, and trimmed to diameter. The arbor has a small shoulder the size of the axle hole to center the disc, and I added a second screw to prevent the gear from turning on the arbor - been bit by that problem in the past.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/pkornpo6v/IMG_3360.jpg)

After the teeth were cut (M0.6 cutter, nbr 8, 0.050" depth of cut, 75 teeth), a 1/4" diameter end mill cutter was used to make a 0.06" deep groove around the outside to allow the worm gear to mesh more fully.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/be90shsrb/IMG_3363.jpg)
Here the parts are tested together, meshes quite well.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3lid0if2f/IMG_3364.jpg)

To backtrack a bit for those who want to know how I came up with this number of teeth - the M0.6 cutter, which is the closest I have to the profile of the Acme thread, normally would make a 62 tooth gear from a 1.5" diameter blank. But, that winds up being a tooth pitch of about 0.076", and the acme thread on this rod (1/4x16) has a pitch of 0.0625" (as well as the tooth profile being different than the normall involute cutter).  So, to get the spacing to match the acme thread, I changed to 75 teeth, which is the closest value to a 0.0625 pitch (4.712" circumference / 75 = 0.0628").  The gaps in the gear wind up slightly wider than the teeth, which gives room for the angle of the acme thread.  I came upon this combination just by visually comparing the cutters I had to the Acme, and saved the trouble of making a custom cutter and angling the rotary table. The end result appears to work quite well, so I am happy with it!

With this combination of gears done, which now matches up with the distance between the shaft from the steering engine and the tiller arm on the rear tracks, it is now time to move on to the gear case that holds it all together. Here is an exploded view of the case and gears:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3ubccuut3/Steering_Gearbox.jpg)

First impression is 'Gack - what did I get myself into!'. Okay, second impression is the same...  :o
The lower sections of the case are hollowed out to take the spur gear, and the top is slotted to take the worm gear, which meet and mesh in that middle section. I've been playing around with how to make the parts, and think I have a plan. The top cap is straightforward milling. The bottom cap can be done from half a round bar, lowering an end mill in while rotating it to carve out the inside - a 1/4" end mill will just have enough reach. The middle section is a combination of the two, and has the most complexity. The wide flange, which mounts the whole mess to the main frame of the shovel, is about 2" square, so it causes problems of reach into the rest of the part. So, it will need to be made in two pieces, and silver soldered together, with the join at the bottom of the wide flange. I would prefer to make it in one piece, but I dont see how to do that. It may have to be 3 pieces, since the portion above the flange means that it would have to be made out of a very large chunk, and I dont have any material that big. Even piecing it all up, workholding is going to be the challenge since the finished parts are shaped on all sides.


I think I will start with the lower cap, and work my way up...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on September 02, 2018, 09:00:35 PM
Looks pretty straightforward to me, Chris. I can fabricate that sort of thing in my sleep :stir: . . .

 . . . but sadly not when I'm awake and in my workshop  :ShakeHead:

Can't wait to see how you do it  :cheers:

Mike.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Admiral_dk on September 02, 2018, 09:24:10 PM
The bottom half could also be a lathe part on the inside - so to speak.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: mklotz on September 02, 2018, 10:37:37 PM
Chris, remember the instructions for eating elephants.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on September 02, 2018, 10:47:07 PM
Really nice work on the worm and gear, but, I would have thought the steering on the Stanley would have been a bit more crude  :facepalm: :lolb: :lolb:. And what is the cookie of the day?  8)Nice work

Eric
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 03, 2018, 01:16:23 AM
Looks pretty straightforward to me, Chris. I can fabricate that sort of thing in my sleep :stir: . . .

 . . . but sadly not when I'm awake and in my workshop  :ShakeHead:

Can't wait to see how you do it  :cheers:

Mike.


 :lolb:


Gotta remember that one!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 03, 2018, 01:23:51 AM
The bottom half could also be a lathe part on the inside - so to speak.
Hmmm...


The half hole for the axle is only .125 diameter, so the cutter would have to fit there, or it couldn't go full depth. A fallback would be to make it in two sections, with a semicircular cover plate 


I am trying the milling approach first, using an end mill to plunge cut in and rotating the part on the rotary table in its vertical position, with the parts axle hole centered on the rotab. It is possible to cut most of the inner arc that way, the last 20 or so degrees need to be a second cut since the opposite end hits the shank. That set of cuts is done, will put pics up tomorrow morning. Not bad results so far, its a fairly thin wall when done.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 03, 2018, 01:25:12 AM
Chris, remember the instructions for eating elephants.
Good point. One nibble at a time!  So far this Marion Elephant has been about half eaten...  Buuurrrrrp!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 03, 2018, 01:26:27 AM
Really nice work on the worm and gear, but, I would have thought the steering on the Stanley would have been a bit more crude  :facepalm: :lolb: :lolb: . And what is the cookie of the day?  8)Nice work

Eric


No cookies today, did take my mother out for ice cream though!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 03, 2018, 06:38:42 PM
As I mentioned yesterday, there are several ways the gear case could be made, main ons I considered were to make the pieces in vertical halves and solder then together (easiest lathe work, harder alignment on soldering), and milling them out of round bar. The bar approach is the way I went, starting with the bottom cover, started with some large bar and milled one side off to form the half disc. That left enough thickness for the part, plus some to clear the end mill holder from the chuck jaws.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ea92w15dj/IMG_3365.jpg)
Next came the fun part - milling out the inside of the cover, leaving just a thin wall. I first made a number of test runs just outside the part to watch where the cutter went since the outer edges of the cutter com into play, not just the middle. I moved in and made a plunge cut down to depth, then cranked the rotary table around as far as it would go in either direction, stopping when the part met the cutter.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/aqn567fif/IMG_3367.jpg)
As you can see, the cutter does not quite make it out the ends:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/advr01co7/IMG_3368.jpg)
So, the remainder was cleared out by moving the mill table in towards the column and adjusting the depth of the cutter so it met the first cuts. Then cranking the table around cleared out the last portions. The pictures I took of doing this on the bottom cover did not come out, so here is the same action on the upper part:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/varz4pq4n/IMG_3380.jpg)
And the same done on the other side, moving the table out and repeating the cuts there.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/nuspixa53/IMG_3378.jpg)
With the inside cuts done, the outside was taken to diameter:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/j8wlajtqv/IMG_3370.jpg)
and then the part was sawn free from the remaining disc. With the part held horizontally in the mill vise, the cut edge was cleaned up and the part taken to thickness. The sides were taken in to their dimension, leaving the bolt flange and the axle boss higher. Same cuts made on other side.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/9ocynpepj/IMG_3372.jpg)
That completed the bottom cover shaping, so a similar set of steps was done on the upper section. The main differences are that this section is flat top and bottom, and it has a pair of ribs extending vertically at the ends. I did not have any flat stock thick enough for this part, so I used another piece of the round bar, which was just large enough to get this part out as long as I shifted the center of the bar to one side. With the bar shifted to put one edge of the finished part on the centerline of the rotary table, the rectangle was milled out, and the ends were rounded off, leaving the center rib. The thickness of the part was milled to leave room for a pair of locating nubs, to help in silver soldering this piece to the parts above it.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/3nf9qmkdj/IMG_3377.jpg)
The center was milled out just as with the bottom cover, and then the top was milled down to final thickness to leave the locating tabs.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/kny5zbcuf/IMG_3381.jpg)
These tabs will fit inside the upper part, and keep things from moving during soldering. Then the part was cut free from the disc, and the sides milled in to form the bolt flange and axle bosses, just like on the bottom cover.

Here are the parts so far, including the gears and shafts.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/s3xfl489j/IMG_3383.jpg)
Next step is to drill/tap the bolt holes in the flanges to hold the cover on, and drill the axle hole to hold the large gear. After that work will begin on the upper parts, which hold the worm gear and the flange to mount the assembly to the main frame.

These parts could have been made in two vertical halves and soldered together again, but I think this way worked out faster and the results were good, without worrying about alignment in soldering.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 03, 2018, 08:55:34 PM
I got the two case pieces drilled/tapped for the bolts, and drilled for the axle on the long worm gear, here are the parts so far:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/jfaae5ign/IMG_3384.jpg)
Next up will be the top portion of the top case, which will hold the short worm gear...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: fumopuc on September 03, 2018, 08:57:45 PM
Hi Chris, a real pleasure to follow your progress.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 03, 2018, 09:22:54 PM
Hi Chris, a real pleasure to follow your progress.
Thanks Achim!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 03, 2018, 09:27:25 PM
I've been sitting here for 10 minutes trying to come up with a way that expresses my thoughts.

All I can do is  :ThumbsUp: with feeling.

P.S. good thoughts  ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on September 03, 2018, 10:22:02 PM
Wow, Chris!  Yet another amazing carving exercise.
That was some pretty amazing work there, with lots of leftover chips!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on September 04, 2018, 01:16:34 PM
Skinning the cat comes to mind....looking good! :cheers:

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 04, 2018, 02:50:56 PM
Skinning the cat comes to mind....looking good! :cheers:

Cheers Kerrin
Sort of like carving the cat a suit of armor!   :Lol:



Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 04, 2018, 04:01:42 PM
Got a lot of the top section made this morning. It consists of a flat plate, on top of that is a block to hold the drive shaft and worm gear from the engine at the rear of the shovel, and a bolted-on cap on top of that.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/mo276u1vr/IMG_3385.jpg)

Here is what it looks like with the top cap and worm gear removed, you can see the lower gear protruding through the slot in the parts. The top cap has a recess in its base that matches this slot, to give room for the work gear.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/lyjeuhohj/IMG_3389.jpg)

The screw holes through the cap go all the way through the plate, and I ran in some small screws to hold the plate in place. The top cap has a recess in its base that matches this slot, to give room for the work gear.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/d3ikjyrzb/IMG_3386.jpg)

Since the threads run through the block and the plate (were tapped with the twp clamped together) I was then able to sand/file off the screw heads:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5njay5wk7/IMG_3387.jpg)

so it would sit flush on the lower unit. The top of the middle section has a pair of tabs that extend through the plate, aligning it.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/9wo10cmyv/IMG_3388.jpg)

The mesh of the gears is good (I had measured the offset for the actual gears, and tweaked the dimension from the plan for the thickness of the upper block to match), so I can flip the parts over, lay in the middle section, and go silver solder them together. The lower and upper caps will be bolted on, to allow inserting the gears.
More later after soldering and cleanup...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on September 04, 2018, 04:13:23 PM
Looks good! Nicely done

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dave Otto on September 04, 2018, 04:30:13 PM
Nice work on the steering gearbox Chris.  :ThumbsUp:

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on September 04, 2018, 05:36:24 PM
Hello Chris,

As usual for you, another beautiful machining job.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 04, 2018, 05:53:05 PM
It just keeps getting more interesting.  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 04, 2018, 06:39:45 PM
Thanks guys!
The middle section has been silver soldered together, had a nice bath in the pickle, and is ready to have the mounting holes drilled in the plate to attach it to the frame (those holes are already in the frame, just need to duplicate the pattern on the plate).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xhiw6zijr/IMG_3390.jpg)
After that, next will be the bearing stand that goes at the opposite end of the long worm gear, on the right side of the main frame.
One thing I will add to the drive shaft going into the gearbox is a simple tube coupler, so that the drive gear on the engine end can be permenantly attached to the shaft, same as with the short worm gear, and still allow for feeding the shaft into place through the end cap on the frame.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 04, 2018, 09:10:04 PM
As I mentioned in the last post, I am adding a end-to-end coupler for the drive shaft to the steering gearbox, to make it easier to assemble/disassemble the parts from the main frame. The real machine had this same type of simple coupler on one of the control rods back to the main engines. Just a hole through the rod, threaded for set screws onto the drive shaft, also filed flats on the shaft ends.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/pz4cc269z/IMG_3393.jpg)
The holes for mounting the unit to the main frame have been drilled, same pattern as I drilled/tapped in the bottom of the main I-beams a while back.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7jjvenkfr/IMG_3391.jpg)
Here is the unit all assembled, I put some grease on the gears before covering them up. Ready for a splash of paint, and it can be bolted to the frame:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3zxxoux5j/IMG_3392.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on September 05, 2018, 01:15:08 AM
All I can say is  :pinkelephant:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 05, 2018, 01:18:22 AM
This afternoon I called in ElfaPaint Inc to give the gearbox a coat of paint:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/pca101e4n/IMG_3394.jpg)

Then it was time for installation - the careful measuring and rechecking paid off during drilling/tapping of the frames and the mounting flange, and every one of the screws went in clean! 

 :whoohoo:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/w2qi9h907/IMG_3400.jpg)

Here is another view taken from underneath:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/54wl7qw2v/IMG_3403.jpg)
Now, the observant among you will notice that in the first shot of the mounted gearbox you can see the side wall and window, which is odd, and in the second one you can see the upper section of my Gerstner toolbox.

How so, you may ask?

Well, thats what happens when you call in the shop elves after a holiday weekend back in the old country. Their driving skills were not up to usual standards, and they hit the brakes just a little bit hard...   :o
(https://s5.postimg.cc/frqed6bxz/IMG_3404.jpg)
My only consolation is that the bad drivers got Darwin'ed out of the shop:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/i925kh653/IMG_3405a.jpg)

Just kidding! It was the easiest way to get access to the bottom of the frame, swung the boom to one side, and tilted it up onto its nose. Without the engines, boiler, gear trains, etc the rear end of the shovel is still lighter than the booms, so it stays there nice and secure (its on a rubber mat, so it doesn't slip).
Here it is back upright:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/cxn8zqhhj/IMG_3406.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 05, 2018, 01:20:39 AM
Oh, and I did test the steering a bit - with the large gear reduction, it takes a bunch of spins of the drive shaft to get much movement (by design, they used a small steam engine, and they are shifting a stationary set of tracks holding up the back end of a 120 ton machine), so I used a small rotary tool set on lowest speed, and it did roll the tracks side to side.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on September 05, 2018, 01:32:48 AM
It makes ya feel great when all the bolt holes in all the parts line up, doesn't it!!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 05, 2018, 02:04:19 AM
It makes ya feel great when all the bolt holes in all the parts line up, doesn't it!!!


Had a BIG grin!   ;D


When I drilled the holes in the I beams a while back, I had made careful notes on the actual hole spacing patterns. Since the I beams were all pieced up and soldered, they had slight variations down thier length (32" long each), so any parts that span them had to take the variations into account and be noted, since even a few thou here and there would cause problems. Sometimes you have to use as built dimensions over as designed ones.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 05, 2018, 03:43:19 PM
Next up on the steering mechanism is the bearing support for the right end of the long worm gear. This is a pretty straightforward part, with some recesses milled into the outside face:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5oax2g17r/IMG_3411.jpg)
Once the recesses were done, the sides were milled in to form the mounting flanges:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wyw8adr9z/IMG_3412.jpg)
and the sides angled over to match the angles on the recesses:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/lmjmsl35j/IMG_3413.jpg)
After drilling/tapping the top, and making the top cap (same method as alll the other ones earlier), a trial fit on the frame before painting:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6ql3kzzgn/IMG_3416.jpg)
A little smoothing with a file and some paint, and it will be done. Then I think I will move on to the pinion gears at the rear of the steering drive shaft, that will connect up to the steering engine behind the boiler...


Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: propforward on September 05, 2018, 04:42:08 PM
This is great fun to see come together. Very much enjoying progress.

Your shop elves don't seem too worse for wear, but maybe it's time for a Health and Safety refresher course for them? Not that shop elves ever listen mind you.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 05, 2018, 05:55:40 PM
This is great fun to see come together. Very much enjoying progress.

Your shop elves don't seem too worse for wear, but maybe it's time for a Health and Safety refresher course for them? Not that shop elves ever listen mind you.
Yeah, did not go well last time, they got the teacher to go out drinking with them!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: fumopuc on September 05, 2018, 07:59:21 PM
Hi Chris, impressive, the parts and your progress.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on September 06, 2018, 12:26:17 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 06, 2018, 12:34:26 AM
One more session in the shop this evening, getting a start on the drive gears for the steering mechanism. These gears take the power from the steam engine in the rear of the shovel down through the floor, and turn the drive shaft that goes into the 90 degree gearbox that I just made.

As we were (and are) talking about over on the 3rd-Times-A-Charm thread, practise makes for comfort and quick operations. Having made lots of gears now (clocks, engines, etc) setting up for this went very quickly.


A disc of 1/8" thick C353 brass was cut out of a larger plate, drilled and mounted on and arbor with another bolt to prevent rotating on the arbor, and turned to outside diameter. Then it was set up on the vertical rotary table, the M0.6 nbr 7 cutter centered vertically and set for a .050 depth of cut, and the gear teeth cut. This gear has 98 teeth, which works out to an odd degree pattern, so as usual I depend on a spreadsheet to pre-calculate the stopping points on the rotary table, that chart taken into the shop so I can tick off the positions as each tooth is cut. That helps prevent skipping or repeating a setting, as does making sure there are no other distractions during the process (tv, phone, radio, etc all off).

Here is the cut gear, ready for cutting in spokes:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ghw7fxuaf/IMG_3417.jpg)
While the setup was there, I decided to also cut the smaller spur gear. This one was cut on the end of a piece of 1/2" brass rod held in the 3-jaw chuck (the larger gear was left in place in the 4-jaw, so it will stay concentric for the spoke cutting operations). This one is an 18 tooth gear, made with the #3 cutter from the M0.6 set. This one works out to a simple 20 degrees per tooth, which on this rotab is 4 full turns per tooth - nice and simple.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/7zmrblg1z/IMG_3418.jpg)
After cutting, the 3-jaw was moved back to the lathe and parted off. Next time I'll start on the spokes on the larger gear, which require shifting the rotab back down to horizontal on the mill.

This is all great practise for cutting all the gears in the hoist, slew, and track drive gear trains coming up later - lots of gears there!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on September 06, 2018, 02:02:09 AM
You sure make short work of those gears, Chris!  And the bearing support looks might fine too!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 06, 2018, 02:10:55 AM
You sure make short work of those gears, Chris!  And the bearing support looks might fine too!
Kim
Thanks Kim, having done so many standard gears, they are just a normal operation now. Bevel gears still need lots of regerence checking, pondering, ang instruction reading. Helicals I have never tried.


Perctise makes prefect!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 07, 2018, 09:21:44 PM
Back in the shop again today, working on the spokes for the steering drive gear. I used angles and distances from the 3D CAD model to determine where the holes at the corners of the spoke openings go, and drilled them using the rotary table on the mill. I'm going to list out the steps here, partly for my own future reference when making the other spoked gears in the hoist/swing trains, coming up soon.
After centering the rotary table and zeroing the handwheels, the mill table was moved .3775" left, and the rotary table set to 30 degrees. Nbr 11 drill was used to make the inner holes of the spoke openings, at 60 degree intervals. Moved the table left another .5945", set the table to 10.7 degrees, and drilled with a 3/16" drill at 60 intervals for the first of the outer corner holes. Repeated starting at -10.7 (349.3) degrees. Here is how it then looked, with the spoke edges sketched in to make sure I milled on the proper sides of the spokes!

(https://s5.postimg.cc/4kn4fkp3b/IMG_3419.jpg)
Then switched to a small end mill, and cut the outer arcs for each opening. I like to take the first through-cut pass away from the line a bit, since these small cutters can flex to the side slightly on through cuts, and leave a rough surface.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/puaqqfktj/IMG_3420.jpg)
Then went back and took some light cuts out to final diameter, results were nice and smooth.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/e56r2hh07/IMG_3421.jpg)
With the outer arcs done, the same steps were repeated on the edges of the spokes, taking a first pass in a bit from the spoke edge on each side, then going back and doing the finish cuts. These cuts were done at 1.17 degrees either side of zero, to match the taper of the spokes. The opening with the bolt in it was finished up last, to ensure that the gear did not get pushed around by the pressure from the cutter. Here is the first side being roughed in:

(https://s5.postimg.cc/kivu5q6gn/IMG_3422.jpg)
and after the second side was roughed in, and both trimmed to final width - stopping point was when the cutter went tangent to the edges of the holes at either end.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/fwzpxd5hz/IMG_3425.jpg)
Last milling steps were to take the thickness of the spokes down, going out into the rim and the hub.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/n07lczy2v/IMG_3426.jpg)
Here are the finished gears for the steering drive. The small one goes on the crankshaft of the engine, the larger one comes up through the floor.
Here the large gear is being test fit on its shaft. I need to make a small bushing for where the shaft goes through the end plate on the main frame, and then I'll paint the gears. The floor plate had to be removed (its held with small hex head screws) to get the gear and its shaft slid into place.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/gnx1gbznr/IMG_3428.jpg)
And what it looks like with the floor plate set back on. The small gear is set about where it will be once the engine is made.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/amzcj95br/IMG_3429.jpg)
Came out well, time for some cookies with the elves!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 07, 2018, 10:02:05 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Just curious as to how long it took to do those operations in your post.
I ask because I spent most of the afternoon just machining the outline of a small eccentric strap.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on September 07, 2018, 11:10:17 PM
Chris that large gear turned out really nice looking.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 07, 2018, 11:53:03 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Just curious as to how long it took to do those operations in your post.
I ask because I spent most of the afternoon just machining the outline of a small eccentric strap.
About an hour. Not including the time on the computer figuring the angles. Already having done a number of spoked gears, and knowing what things to do and precautions like the second screw meant it was a set of known steps, not much head scratching and thinking things through. Like we discussed in the other thread, experience builds confidence and quicker good parts. I remember the first time I cut spokes, took a day or two.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 07, 2018, 11:57:44 PM
Chris that large gear turned out really nice looking.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Thanks Thomas!  Just installed it after painting, and was looking through the plans to decide whats next. The rest of the control rods and cranks under the frame make the most sense, to get the most possible underneath done before it gets too heavy to lift easily. The main controls are levers at the front left corner, with sets of rods and cranks running along the underside of the main I beams. I need to add more dimensions and labels to the plan sheets and add some perspective views, since they all overlap in side and top views.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 08, 2018, 12:16:45 AM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Just curious as to how long it took to do those operations in your post.
I ask because I spent most of the afternoon just machining the outline of a small eccentric strap.
About an hour. Not including the time on the computer figuring the angles. Already having done a number of spoked gears, and knowing what things to do and precautions like the second screw meant it was a set of known steps, not much head scratching and thinking things through. Like we discussed in the other thread, experience builds confidence and quicker good parts. I remember the first time I cut spokes, took a day or two.

Went from a day or two to an hour...man I have a ways to go.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 08, 2018, 01:06:17 AM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Just curious as to how long it took to do those operations in your post.
I ask because I spent most of the afternoon just machining the outline of a small eccentric strap.
About an hour. Not including the time on the computer figuring the angles. Already having done a number of spoked gears, and knowing what things to do and precautions like the second screw meant it was a set of known steps, not much head scratching and thinking things through. Like we discussed in the other thread, experience builds confidence and quicker good parts. I remember the first time I cut spokes, took a day or two.

Went from a day or two to an hour...man I have a ways to go.
Well, just keep going, its a fun trip overall!    :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 08, 2018, 02:09:15 AM
I've been playing in Fusion adding labels and dimensions to the controls drawings. To give you an idea of what the ones under the floor are, and what I'll be doing this week, here is a perspective view of the controls. This does not include the hoist and steer throttles, which are overhead levers and rods.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/nh1zqmasn/22_Control_Details_Drawing_v5_4.jpg)
As you can imagine, it took a fair while crawling under the real shovel taking lots of photos and following the links alongto figure out what everything went to, since some of the control rods are quite long and all run in the same frame bays.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: RonGinger on September 08, 2018, 03:49:59 AM
I assume you intend to operate this model as you did the Lombard. How will you get at all those levers and pedals placed so close together? You clearly wont be able to stick a finger in and set or release the various brake rods.

Would it be possible to find a place on each rod where a flexible cable could be attached that all run to a box containing R/C servos? The box could be set away from the model so it wouldn't ruin the scale look, but still give a way to operate.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on September 08, 2018, 06:08:20 AM
Evening Chris.......is that view created in Fusion 360 [on: Today at 02:09:15 AM ] all OK?

The left hand section is OK in concept as viewed from underneath.....however I need a few  :DrinkPint: :DrinkPint: to conceptually relate to the right hand side view of components as shown diminishing to the lower right

Maybe because I am upside down here in OZ  :facepalm:

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 08, 2018, 11:24:58 AM
I assume you intend to operate this model as you did the Lombard. How will you get at all those levers and pedals placed so close together? You clearly wont be able to stick a finger in and set or release the various brake rods.

Would it be possible to find a place on each rod where a flexible cable could be attached that all run to a box containing R/C servos? The box could be set away from the model so it wouldn't ruin the scale look, but still give a way to operate.
Yeah, it is tight quarters, especially when they are inside the cab. Flex cables is probably the best way, have not worked out that part yet.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 08, 2018, 11:26:23 AM
Evening Chris.......is that view created in Fusion 360 [on: Today at 02:09:15 AM ] all OK?

The left hand section is OK in concept as viewed from underneath.....however I need a few  :DrinkPint: :DrinkPint: to conceptually relate to the right hand side view of components as shown diminishing to the lower right

Maybe because I am upside down here in OZ  :facepalm:

Derek
This is a cutaway view, so lots of frame members are removed to show the controls. Also no perspective, and no beer was used!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: jonesie on September 08, 2018, 06:35:31 PM
chris really looking good, have been following you right along .do you have trouble with the drills grabbing in the brass sometimes i use a small drill the use a 2 flute to do the large hole then it does not grab, i also will flatten the cutting edge. just wondering .you are doing some really nice work.thanks
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 08, 2018, 08:43:02 PM
chris really looking good, have been following you right along .do you have trouble with the drills grabbing in the brass sometimes i use a small drill the use a 2 flute to do the large hole then it does not grab, i also will flatten the cutting edge. just wondering .you are doing some really nice work.thanks
Hi Jonesie,  I have never had grabbing probems with the drills in brass, so have not done the flattening trick. I use cobalt steel drills, last quite well and cut cleanly.  Most of the time on holes over 5/16 I will drill that size then use a boring bar or boring head for the larger hole, since it gives me a cleaner and rounder result, so I am not using the larger drills much anyway.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 08, 2018, 10:51:08 PM
Sidetrack just a bit today - our local RC submarine group was off in Grand Island (next to Buffalo) today showing at a (full size) boat club there, at a big antique boat show (cars too) they held. Lots of great boats and cars, we ran in the club's pool and had a great time.
Some of our boats (were lots more than these in the tent in the background)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/93ce448jr/IMG_1474a.jpg)
My rowboat with a modern Skipjack to confuse the carp out of Capt. Jack:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/b7wr5851j/IMG_1481a.jpg)
Some great cars:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/8qkzxz0kn/IMG_1488a.jpg)
and car-boats:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/inw0r10gn/IMG_1516a.jpg)
and of course lots of old powerboats
(https://s5.postimg.cc/sxyfq8g1j/IMG_1497a.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/bko5be05z/IMG_1512a.jpg)
and some old canoes, like this beauty of a Rushton:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/hyd8encrr/IMG_1507a.jpg)

Side side note, was given a bunch of photos that one of the couples in our club took on their recent trip to Wisconsin, where they were at the maritime museum (has a WW-II era submarine too). The one pic from there that I want to show is this big triple-expansion engine, which is one of two that drove the icebreaker Chief Wawatam, with piston diameters of 21, 33, and 52 inches. It has a huge D-valve showing in the steam chest on the side:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4u7o1uptz/steam_engine_1a.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 08, 2018, 11:17:55 PM
Great pics!

You can tell it's a bit cooler up there.  ;D

Love the car!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 08, 2018, 11:46:21 PM
Great pics!

You can tell it's a bit cooler up there.  ;D

Love the car!
Yeah, after months of 90+ degrees day after day, all of a sudden its about 62! Loving the change, gotten the house cooled off again. The remnants of the tropical storm that dumped on Florida and the Gulf should be up here the next couple days, just a bit of rain (that we need), nothing expected bad since it has blown itself out on the way inland.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 09, 2018, 01:59:53 AM
Great pics!

You can tell it's a bit cooler up there.  ;D

Love the car!
Yeah, after months of 90+ degrees day after day, all of a sudden its about 62! Loving the change, gotten the house cooled off again. The remnants of the tropical storm that dumped on Florida and the Gulf should be up here the next couple days, just a bit of rain (that we need), nothing expected bad since it has blown itself out on the way inland.

I do like the cooler weather...but it's cramping our pool time. Best wishes though for those in the path.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 09, 2018, 05:10:07 PM
Looking over the plans for the control links, one thing obvious is that I will be needing a pile of small clevises to connect the links to the control arms. So, started with a length of 1/8" square brass bar, and drilled tapping holes for 1-72 threads every .450".

(https://s5.postimg.cc/dzyeej9vb/IMG_3431.jpg)

Then set up the slitting saw in the arbor (same on I use for gear cutting, it has a couple of different diameter steps in the end for the saws and cutters, the washer plate is undercut on the inside face)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/xukg0oc87/IMG_3438.jpg)

and cut notches .200 deep into the ends. The bar stock I have for the control arms is .062 thick, and this blade is .045, so made two passes at different heights.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/frrd9g0xz/IMG_3437.jpg)

Each part was notched then moved out and  cut off with a small hacksaw, so I could use the rest of the bar to hold the pieces in the mill vise.

After the batch was cut, moved over to the lathe, held each piece in the 4-jaw and drilled the end for the 3/32" round bar, and turned the end round for .100.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/dzyeejpav/IMG_3439.jpg)

Here is the first complete clevis, the rest are ready for drilling/turning the ends. The clevises can be soldered or loctited on the ends of the control rods, and the 1-72 screws will act as pivot pins in the ends. I am making up a bunch of these, since I know it will need at least 12 or 15 of them (some of the joints are clevis, some are just overlapped flat bars).

(https://s5.postimg.cc/agcgor20n/IMG_3440.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 10, 2018, 09:23:28 PM
The rest of the clevises are done:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/59f9k1s0n/IMG_3441.jpg)
and the pile of other control linkage bits and pieces is growing. There are a number of crank arms and rods to take the lever movement from the left frame bay over underneath the engines for drain cocks, throttles, and reversing gear. So far have made up the simple ones, there are a couple for the hoist brake band that need some bendy shapes, they are next. Most so far are silver soldered to the rods, there is one set for the slew throttle that has grub screws, otherwise it would be impossible to assemble them into the frames.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/5yy1wekuf/IMG_3442.jpg)
When they are all fabricated, I'll go back and taper the control rods and round the ends.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 11, 2018, 03:36:15 PM
The rest of the under-floor control linkages are made, and ready for tapering/rounding the ends on the sander.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wxt6jg1rr/IMG_3443.jpg)

Once these are tapered/rounded, they can be installed, and work can start on the floor and arms up at the operators station.
EDIT: just noticed that some of the controls were set non-visible in the drawing I put up the other day, here is the corrected one, including the slew throttle linkage:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/uhvyjays7/22_Control_Details_Drawing_v7_4.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on September 11, 2018, 07:50:40 PM
Looking good Dog you just don’t let up do you? But you know ........i.........like......  :Love:


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Johnmcc69 on September 11, 2018, 08:55:59 PM
Very nice Chris, nice bit of CAD design & engineering.

 Will come in handy when you do the Stanley Steamer.
(Sorry Zee..couldn't resist.)

 John
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 11, 2018, 09:37:07 PM
Very nice Chris, nice bit of CAD design & engineering.

 Will come in handy when you do the Stanley Steamer.
(Sorry Zee..couldn't resist.)

 John
Thanks John!

Maybe I can get Ye-Old-Steam-Dude to put a Stanley body on the big one he is building, and convince Zee that is who he was talking to....   :thinking:
Looking good Dog you just don’t let up do you? But you know ........i.........like......  :Love:


 :cheers:
Don
Nope - never let up, just keep steaming along!
One thing I have been experimenting with this week is just how to get this big beast of a model into my car (Maxda CX-5) for the trip up to Maine in October (they asked me to bring up the Lombard and the Marion to their two-day fall event, I'll be joining their crew running the real Lombard again!   :whoohoo: ). I could slide it in lengthwise from the back, but that means it rides up on the back of the seats, which don't fold down quite flat. I also have a big plywood platform with padding/vinyl on one side that we used as a seat for the dogs in a Subaru, turns out that fits nicely over the top of the back seat in the Mazda and lays flat and snug - still have to see if the Marion will slide in through the side door, think it will fit with the main boom swung over about 45 degrees. Either way, I need to make a tray for the model that will cradle the tracks, and have some tie-down straps for the frame and boom to keep it from slipping around.
 :thinking:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 11, 2018, 09:46:41 PM
Okay - the main control linkages are fettled down and installed, used the tip-model-on-its-nose trick again to get underneath it. Starting at the back, here are the control rods for the reversing gear, hoist/slew drain cocks, and slew throttle. The holes through the floor plate are not cut yet, will do that later on when fitting the engines - the floor plates are held with screws, so they are easy to remove. The brass disc is the counterweight for the reversing gear linkages.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/cjahdgpdz/IMG_3450.jpg)
This is the back end of the linkage to the track drive dog clutch - the curved arm will connect to a bar over to the center that moves the clutch.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/53b7rntyv/IMG_3451.jpg)
Moving forward, you can see the two-piece rod and its coupling on the left, and the brass disc at the end of the arm that is the counterweight for the hoist clutch control. This keeps the brake disengaged when the operator is not stepping on the brake pedal.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/h56llsnrr/IMG_3445.jpg)
You can see it in the last photo as well, here is a closer shot of the front of the track clutch linkage. This curved bar connects to a handle that will go up through the floor. When the handle is raised and slid into a notch, it engages and holds the drive dog clutch so that the hoist engine will drive the front tracks (presumably with the hoist drum clutch disengaged so the bucket is not moved at the same time).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fq50x2uef/IMG_3449.jpg)
That completes this batch of control linkages, now I can start connecting up the dog clutch arm, and the levers/floor/brackets at the operator control station.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on September 11, 2018, 10:24:53 PM
Those under-belly shots really look good, cannot tell it from the real thing.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 11, 2018, 11:00:41 PM
Those under-belly shots really look good, cannot tell it from the real thing.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Actually easy to tell from real thing at the moment - the real one has birds nests and old tar!   :Lol:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/43kwwb21z/IMG_1281a.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on September 11, 2018, 11:42:29 PM
Quote
Actually easy to tell from real thing at the moment - the real one has birds nests and old tar!   :Lol:

That'll be an interesting post. Replicating all that will be a challenge, but we all know you can do it  :LittleDevil:

Some more amazing work on those linkages. It's great to watch it all coming together  :cheers:

Mike.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 12, 2018, 12:34:39 AM
Quote
Actually easy to tell from real thing at the moment - the real one has birds nests and old tar!   :Lol:

That'll be an interesting post. Replicating all that will be a challenge, but we all know you can do it  :LittleDevil:

Some more amazing work on those linkages. It's great to watch it all coming together  :cheers:

Mike.
Hard part is finding the 1:16 scale birds to build the nest!   :ROFL:
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 12, 2018, 12:40:27 AM
One more bit added tonight - the bars that go from that curved control arm out under the opening in the floor (where the gear trains and chain drums will be) which will engage the dog clutch for the track drive. Simple bent bars with pivot holes, and turned one end down to fit in the hole in the end of a clevis. The bar running left/right pivots on a screw into the frame at the left end, and the other bar connects to the curved arm shown earlier. The nut/bolt at the intersection of these two bars is loctited (blue) in place with the nut left a little loose so the joint can pivot. Same at the connection to the curved control arm.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/6q0fcr0tz/IMG_3455.jpg)
I think this is the last of the control linkages (short connectors out to each engine/drain/etc will be added as those assemblies are made), and I can start on the raised floor and levers at the operators station up front.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 12, 2018, 01:29:11 AM
Will come in handy when you do the Stanley Steamer.
(Sorry Zee..couldn't resist.)

Nothing to be sorry about. It WILL be Chris. And we ALL can't wait.  :Lol:
Well we can wait a bit...this project is pretty fascinating.

Maybe I can get Ye-Old-Steam-Dude to put a Stanley body on the big one he is building, and convince Zee that is who he was talking to....   :thinking:

Don't think so. Ye-Old-Steam-Dude is a southerner and I'm closer to being (or having been) a southerner than you.
I'm thinking hoping that counts for something.
On the other hand...if skill and knowledge counts for something...then I'm doomed.  ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on September 12, 2018, 08:12:35 PM
used the tip-model-on-its-nose trick again

Pretty soon that trick isn't going to work anymore.  Then you're either going to have to invest in either eye-bolts and chain hoists, or an electric car hoist.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: bouch on September 12, 2018, 09:47:26 PM

One thing I have been experimenting with this week is just how to get this big beast of a model into my car (Maxda CX-5) for the trip up to Maine in October (they asked me to bring up the Lombard and the Marion to their two-day fall event, I'll be joining their crew running the real Lombard again!   :whoohoo: ). I could slide it in lengthwise from the back, but that means it rides up on the back of the seats, which don't fold down quite flat. I also have a big plywood platform with padding/vinyl on one side that we used as a seat for the dogs in a Subaru, turns out that fits nicely over the top of the back seat in the Mazda and lays flat and snug - still have to see if the Marion will slide in through the side door, think it will fit with the main boom swung over about 45 degrees. Either way, I need to make a tray for the model that will cradle the tracks, and have some tie-down straps for the frame and boom to keep it from slipping around.
 :thinking:

You could make a practice run by bringing both to Clark's Trading Post this weekend ;)

Mike
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 12, 2018, 09:57:52 PM
used the tip-model-on-its-nose trick again

Pretty soon that trick isn't going to work anymore.  Then you're either going to have to invest in either eye-bolts and chain hoists, or an electric car hoist.

Don
As soon as the gear trains start going in I think it will want to come back down level on its own again - may need some scaffolding from Elves Rent-A-Tool! Thats why I am trying to get as much as possible underneath done now - connecting up links to the engines can be done in some cases by taking up a floor plate.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 12, 2018, 09:59:44 PM

One thing I have been experimenting with this week is just how to get this big beast of a model into my car (Maxda CX-5) for the trip up to Maine in October (they asked me to bring up the Lombard and the Marion to their two-day fall event, I'll be joining their crew running the real Lombard again!   :whoohoo: ). I could slide it in lengthwise from the back, but that means it rides up on the back of the seats, which don't fold down quite flat. I also have a big plywood platform with padding/vinyl on one side that we used as a seat for the dogs in a Subaru, turns out that fits nicely over the top of the back seat in the Mazda and lays flat and snug - still have to see if the Marion will slide in through the side door, think it will fit with the main boom swung over about 45 degrees. Either way, I need to make a tray for the model that will cradle the tracks, and have some tie-down straps for the frame and boom to keep it from slipping around.
 :thinking:

You could make a practice run by bringing both to Clark's Trading Post this weekend ;)

Mike
Wish I could - we have our season-ending submarine run and picnic this weekend, have lots of people coming. Take lots of pictures for me! Just a few weeks out to the run up to Maine to drive theirs around again.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 13, 2018, 12:49:36 AM
Catching up with the progress (took the afternoon and went canoeing, first time out in quite a while due to some tendon problems, great time out today) on the controls. Next step is to make the floor that the operator stands on. It is raised up for a couple reasons probably, better view to the bucket, to leave room underneath for the hoist drum clutch rod (which goes on top of the floor), and to keep the lever arms underneath from projecting below the frames and being hit by rocks. It has a simple bar framework:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/qbty6ewtj/IMG_3458.jpg)
that gets a set of wide planks on top:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/w008xb8vr/IMG_3460.jpg)
I took a look at those bolt heads, decided they were too thick, and sanded them down thinner:
(https://s5.postimg.cc/3n4r6u7pz/IMG_3462.jpg)
The frames are bolted to the floor plate. Here is a view with the floor plate removed - you can see some of the control rods underneath that the levers will connect to.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/tvfvw8eyv/IMG_3463.jpg)
The brass crossbar you see is the top of one of the short cross I-beams. Next steps will be to make the brackets for the control levers, then the levers themselves. The brackets on the real engine bolt to the vertical back edge of the A-frame support beam in front of the floor assembly. To make it easier to remove this section in one piece, I will have the brackets attach to an L-shaped piece down to the floor - position will be the same, just the attachment will differ. On the real one there is room to reach in under the floor to the brackets, not so much on the model.
Here is a view of the real floor, showing the (falling apart) wood floor timbers, and also the control levers and brackets underneath.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ok0zbky1z/DSC_6860a.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 13, 2018, 01:43:51 AM
Next step is to make the floor that the operator stands on.

Operator.  :lolb: We know who you mean.  ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 13, 2018, 02:23:10 AM
Next step is to make the floor that the operator stands on.

Operator.  :lolb: We know who you mean.  ;D
Cool. Then you can explain it to me, you lost me on that one.   :headscratch:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 13, 2018, 03:06:20 AM
Next step is to make the floor that the operator stands on.

Operator.  :lolb: We know who you mean.  ;D
Cool. Then you can explain it to me, you lost me on that one.   :headscratch:

Pick one. You, an elf, me (as in who would't want to operate that thing), some other soul.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on September 13, 2018, 03:20:29 AM
Hi Chris ,  there seem to be quite a few square nuts dotted about in the photo...more interesting work going on   :praise2:

Willy
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 13, 2018, 03:21:52 AM
Well, on the real machine, there were two operators, one on the turntable controlling the crowd engine throttle/direction/drain and releasing the bucket door, and one at the station behind and to the left, controlling the hoist throttle/brake/direction/clutch, the slew throttle, the track drive clutch, the steering throttle, and the hoist/slew drains.


I would love to have a chance to actually operate either position on the real thing. Will have to settle for operating the model!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 13, 2018, 03:27:35 AM
Hi Chris ,  there seem to be quite a few square nuts dotted about in the photo...more interesting work going on   :praise2:

Willy
Thanks Willy!  So far just hex nuts pn the model. There are square ones on the wood floor on the real one, but I am not sure if those are original or replacements, cannot tell if the wood is original or not, since the cab itself was changed from wood to steel at some point. All the nuts on the mechanisms are hex nuts. The cab probably dates to the 30s or 40s, but hard to be sure. The shovel was built in 1906, retired in 1949, a long career.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 13, 2018, 09:08:20 PM
Hi Chris ,  there seem to be quite a few square nuts dotted about in the photo...more interesting work going on   :praise2:

Willy
Thanks Willy!  So far just hex nuts pn the model. There are square ones on the wood floor on the real one, but I am not sure if those are original or replacements, cannot tell if the wood is original or not, since the cab itself was changed from wood to steel at some point. All the nuts on the mechanisms are hex nuts. The cab probably dates to the 30s or 40s, but hard to be sure. The shovel was built in 1906, retired in 1949, a long career.
Was looking through more of the photos, and you are right, there are more square nuts holding the smaller control parts on underneath than I had noticed before - good eye! Apparently the larger ones are all he, the smaller ones are a mix. Wonder why?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 13, 2018, 09:15:51 PM
Today I got the brackets that hold the cross rod for the control levers made out of some brass bar. Started by cutting in from the side, leaving the 'feet' on the bottom that they will bolt on with. The parts rested on a parallel bar in the clamp, so the distance in from each side was the same. Oh - first I had drilled the pivot holes.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/ibyhjw88n/IMG_3464.jpg)
Then angled the parts to cut the taper on the sides.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7cda8a2dz/IMG_3465.jpg)
Then milled out the bulk of the panel on the sides to form the recess. The corners were squared up with a small dental bur in the high speed air handpiece.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/7p4oegsdj/IMG_3466.jpg)
After cutting the two brackets apart, the bottoms were cleaned up square with the mill.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/fumqcmw1z/IMG_3467.jpg)
And the two parts ready for the levers. The row of levers will ride on the shaft, with short lengths of tubing as spacers between them (real ones were done the same way - that way they rotate independantly on the shaft and dont shift sideways).
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6zlw24ezb/IMG_3468.jpg)
Next up I think will be the control levers...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Admiral_dk on September 13, 2018, 10:17:46 PM
I follow your fantastic journey  :praise2:

Quote
Apparently the larger ones are all hex, the smaller ones are a mix. Wonder why?

Probably they had a big stock of square nuts that needed spending  ;)

Best wishes

Per
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 14, 2018, 05:24:33 PM
This morning I got the bracket to hold the brackets that hold the control levers made. Simple L-shape, made of two bits of flat stock silver soldered together. I re-used one of the little clamps I made for the turntable, had to widen the slot out a little to reach on these pieces.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/6rkh0cpkn/IMG_3470.jpg)
After a soak in the pickle (during which time I took some friends out to see the real machine), drilled/tapped the mounting holes and gave it a try on the model. It is screwed to the front of the floor plate from underneath.
(https://s5.postimg.cc/ex2iyiljb/IMG_3472.jpg)
Next up will be to start making the levers themsleves. I am going to start with some 1/8" round stock to turn the handles in, and have not decided whether to make them in one piece with the shank of the lever or piece them up. The bottom end of most of them needs to be curved a little, and the whole section below the handle is flattened on the sides.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 14, 2018, 05:39:20 PM
Did a test with the 1/8" flat bar stock, it will take the edge set bend at the bottom of the lever easily, so the handles will be turned from round and soldered to the flat bar for the body of the lever...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 16, 2018, 01:09:43 AM
No shop time today, we had our season ending RC run at the pond, great time, great weather.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 16, 2018, 01:20:07 AM
No shop time today, we had our season ending RC run at the pond, great time, great weather.

That's okay. I've stopped following.  ;D

I'm such a liar.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 16, 2018, 01:44:13 AM
No shop time today, we had our season ending RC run at the pond, great time, great weather.

That's okay. I've stopped following.  ;D

I'm such a liar.


The Pinochio reference is already on the drag saw thread!  :ROFL:


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on September 16, 2018, 02:11:58 AM
No shop time today, we had our season ending RC run at the pond, great time, great weather.

Hello Chris,

Hope you took plenty of pictures and will post some here.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 16, 2018, 02:31:37 AM
No shop time today, we had our season ending RC run at the pond, great time, great weather.

Hello Chris,

Hope you took plenty of pictures and will post some here.

Have a great day,
Thomas
I didn't get any, but others took some and I will get them soon. Mostly same boats I have shown before, the new jokes flying around don't shiw up on camera!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on September 16, 2018, 04:06:13 AM
No shop time today, we had our season ending RC run at the pond, great time, great weather.

Photos please, we don't doubt you, but we want photos.
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on September 16, 2018, 04:13:02 AM
Aye, or we'll be callin' the revenewers on ye!

 :cheers:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 16, 2018, 06:18:06 PM
Aye, or we'll be callin' the revenewers on ye!

 :cheers:

Pete
The revenoo'ers? No!
 :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 16, 2018, 06:23:28 PM
Okay - one of the others there posted a bunch of pics of the sub run day, here we go:
(https://i.postimg.cc/SxdfRN4Z/Don_O_s_fleet.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/bvvHtcNq/Jim_s_fleet.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/pd1QQGpz/oscar.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y9G6d6WV/paddle_wheel_target.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y951ZvNS/seaview.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Xq9wbnxk/skipjack.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/RCt1fT9J/Sub_Captains.jpg)
Thats me on the far right of the line...
(https://i.postimg.cc/jdrHhJdg/Sub_Captains_1.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/GhJkgh4c/subs.jpg)
The gizmo there on shore is our sub launcher, saves kneeling down and out over the water with heavy boats. The water was low yesterday, so it was used more as a cane when wading out!
(https://i.postimg.cc/0yk7TRS7/subs_1.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/FHT0mWb8/subs_2.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/fyQ956Zt/subs_3.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/D0QbNByC/subs_4.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/fbkmbcBL/subs_5.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/CLY88Tm9/subs_6.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/6QSR48mh/subs_7.jpg)
A great weather day all round, lots of fun company too!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: fumopuc on September 16, 2018, 07:45:38 PM
Hi Chris, great pictures.
Do you have another one, closer, of this drving ponton ?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on September 16, 2018, 07:48:27 PM
Thanks for these photos Chris.

That surely is a beautiful boat, the Creole Queen.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on September 16, 2018, 09:17:53 PM
That's a very nice pond and some really cool boats! You guys have too much fun...   :Love:

I'll call off the revynoers.... :paranoia:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 16, 2018, 09:46:09 PM
Hi Chris, great pictures.
Do you have another one, closer, of this drving ponton ?


As I mentioned, I did not have a camera with me, these are all pics another member took, all I have from yesterday. Which boat do you mean, I may have shots from a different day.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 16, 2018, 11:49:10 PM
Back in the shop for a bit this afternoon, got the handles for the control levers turned from some steel rod, and bent/drilled the levers from flat stock. The ends of the levers were turned round, to fit in holes drilled in the bases of the handles, then silver soldered together:
(https://i.postimg.cc/cC741xCs/IMG_3474.jpg)
Next steps are to make the spacer tubes that hold the levers apart on the pivot shaft, and to mill the openings in the floor plate for the bottoms of the levers. Three of the levers go through the floor, one (the hoist clutch control) stays above the cab floor, running to a valve next to the hoist drum. Also, the lever for the reversing gear on the main hoist engine needs to have a notched base and engaging handle made, to that the reversing gear will stay in the position it is set in. The other levers are free to move back and forth.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 17, 2018, 04:15:43 PM
Bit by bit getting the lever assembly made up, here its test fit with some nuts used as spacers to test things out. The clevises are a little wide, so the lower ends of the levers had to be bent out to the sides a little for clearance.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6QmcFsvM/IMG_3476.jpg)
and trial fit on the floor:
(https://i.postimg.cc/FKRGPF7f/IMG_3478.jpg)
Next I need to figure out how to make the locking handle and latch on the reversing control lever...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on September 17, 2018, 05:32:18 PM
Jeez, was that thing operated by a man or by an octopus?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on September 17, 2018, 07:09:11 PM
Beautiful job Chris, they sure will look good inside the machine.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 17, 2018, 07:12:00 PM
Jeez, was that thing operated by a man or by an octopus?
Octopus!


There are two more levers that hang from the cieling, a floor handle and a pedal too.


Actually, they were very simple to run basic digging with, since once set there were just two handles used, the hoist and slew, while the crowd boom was operated by a second man on the turntable. Marion had clever valving on the throttles, so one valve controlled direction and speed on the slew and crowd engines, plus the hoist throttle had a bypass to hold and telease the hoist chain all from the one lever. Marion played up the simplicity and speed of operation in thier catalogs, and had the special valves patented. The reverse lever on the hoist was only used when driving the tracks, the steering engine throttle likewise, and the drain cock lever only when first starting up.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on September 17, 2018, 08:06:31 PM
That's a nice looking set of control levers, Chris!  :popcorn:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on September 17, 2018, 08:39:43 PM
Jeez, was that thing operated by a man or by an octopus?

Ever watched a video of somebody running a modern excavator using 2 joysticks and 2 foot pedals simultaneously?  That would be the equivalent of running at least 6 levers at the same time, maybe more.  It's all a matter of practice, LOTS of practice.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 17, 2018, 08:52:34 PM
Enough time thinking about how to make the latching handle, time to make the thing! Started with the top handle, milled a notch in the side of some bar stock, then used the saw to notch where it goes over the lever:
(https://i.postimg.cc/vBH7S2Wt/IMG_3480.jpg)
And drilled/tapped the pivot holes for some 0-80 screws,
(https://i.postimg.cc/x8Xv9kpk/IMG_3481.jpg)
and milled out the other side of the handle:
(https://i.postimg.cc/gc7yNDr3/IMG_3482.jpg)
After some filing to round off corners and edges, test fit on the lever:
(https://i.postimg.cc/76s1v198/IMG_3483.jpg)
There are a pair of bars running down the sides to the moving part of the lower latch, which will be held in place with the little U-shaped bit. Note that the latch is on the opposite side of the lever from the moving handle, and the bars cross the lever on the way down.
(https://i.postimg.cc/T1Br1RBt/IMG_3484.jpg)
Still need to make the lower latch and the curved rack that it fits into, but that is enough teensy work for one day. Don't know how George makes the tiny bits look so good, his parts are half this size most of the time!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 18, 2018, 02:45:09 PM
And this morning nibbled the lower latch out of the end of a piece of bar stock with the mill. The narrow end is drilled for the cross screw at the ends of the long bars from the handle.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZnPSG6Dx/IMG_3485.jpg)
Here it is assembled to the lever. The pen mark shows the lowest point, where the latch is engaged to the rack (still to be made).
(https://i.postimg.cc/xTRQgym0/IMG_3486.jpg)
And here is where it rises to when the handle is closed against the lever, raises the latch to change its position. Not a whole lot of movement, but not a lot is needed to raise it from the notches in the rack. The latch is just dropped by gravity, the original had no springs so the model does not either.

(https://i.postimg.cc/9XyCwjFw/IMG_3487.jpg)
And here is the whole lever:

(https://i.postimg.cc/MKxxyrvP/IMG_3488.jpg)
Next up is the rack assembly at the bottom, which also has guides for the other levers to keep them from twisting sideways.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on September 18, 2018, 03:06:49 PM
Really looking good Chris. While the operating may not have been all that hard, I bet it wasn't a task that you could perform and play with your smart phone like so many today are :thinking:

Whiskey
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 18, 2018, 05:47:32 PM
Amazing work Chris. I certainly enjoy this thread.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 18, 2018, 08:10:18 PM
Really looking good Chris. While the operating may not have been all that hard, I bet it wasn't a task that you could perform and play with your smart phone like so many today are :thinking:

Whiskey


 :ROFL:


Oh, yeah, the operator of the shovel would get a text from his boss: 
A) you just dug a trench across the road
B) you are fired


 :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 18, 2018, 08:10:44 PM
Amazing work Chris. I certainly enjoy this thread.


Thanks Carl!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 18, 2018, 11:34:09 PM
Okay, time for another of those complex shape parts. This is the casting that guides the levers just above the floor, keeping them running in a straight line and not getting bent off to the side at the pivot, sort of like a shift gate on a car. I thought about making it out of sheet metal, but its so small that it would be tough to get it accurate and strong, so milling it out of metal seemed like a better idea. Holding the part for working on it is the biggest problem to be solved.
The topmost surface is an arc, that will form the notched rack that the reversing lever latches to. That arc is fairly large, which means that I could not offset a small bar in the 4-jaw since it would go well past the center point. So, I decided to use a short length of round bar, and offset that in the chuck, then mill off one side. Yes, I can hear some of you screaming at me for wasting precious brass stock, but I have a pile of round bar stock that I got cheap several years ago, and this is what its for! So, go scream in a sack of swarf, and I'll get on with making the part!   :ROFL:
Started with offsetting the bar in the 4-jaw enough to cut the arc in one side. The dimple you see to the right on the bar is the centerpoint of the lathe, after chucking it up I drilled a starter hole there to give me something to measure from, since I want the radius of the arc to match the distance up the lever that the latch is from the pivot.

(https://i.postimg.cc/VNgBRFPP/IMG_3489.jpg)
Then I moved the chuck over to the rotary table on the mill (rotab is set vertically), and milled off the other side from the center of the arc, leaving the distance from the flat to the top of the arc matching the distance up from the floor it needs to be. This is where I hear screaming from some of you.


I'll wait.

Done?

Okay:

(https://i.postimg.cc/1zsrwjTK/IMG_3490.jpg)
Then turned the rotab 90 degrees either way, and milled the sides in equally, leaving the desired width of the part.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Kcw7Jzwj/IMG_3491.jpg)
Switched to a smaller mill, and cut the notches in the side to form the feet where it attaches to the floor, and also lowered the top down where three of the levers go through.

(https://i.postimg.cc/vZWv1sPB/IMG_3492.jpg)
Turned it 45 degrees, and cut the bevels on the lower section.

(https://i.postimg.cc/pT1QNXd0/IMG_3493.jpg)
Then rotated it so the bottom was facing up, and milled out the underside:
(https://i.postimg.cc/WzFGsLFs/IMG_3494.jpg)
Then milled off some more on the end nearest the chuck, to form flats big enough to hold in the mill vise:
(https://i.postimg.cc/B6v5w1JL/IMG_3496.jpg)
and used the slitting saw to cut the part free of the end of the round bar. The top two sections in this photo are the actual part, the rest is just there to hold it in the vise without squishing it.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Bbrx6YHH/IMG_3497.jpg)
Now the tricky bit - measured out the locations for the slots that the levers will ride in, and used the slitting saw to cut them. It took two passes at different heights on each to get the slots wide enough for the bars.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8PvR3GgH/IMG_3499.jpg)
Then cut the part free of the base, leaving the finished length:
(https://i.postimg.cc/L8MtFWHM/IMG_3500.jpg)
With the part held sideways in the vise, carefully cut the end back to shape underneath. This cut only goes to the far side of the first slot, it does not go through to the lower section.
(https://i.postimg.cc/kgFxJy4R/IMG_3501.jpg)
Here is the part so far, all the main milling is done. Still need to cut the notches for the latch, and mount holes in the feet. Fairly complex shape, for something so small, but a very important part.

(https://i.postimg.cc/wBwLJTD6/IMG_3502.jpg)
And here it is sitting next to the levers, where it will be on the floorboards. Since the handles will not fit through the slots, I'll need to disassemble/reassemble the levers on their pivots to install this part, so that will wait for the next couple of steps.
(https://i.postimg.cc/7LHSfTGs/IMG_3504.jpg)

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 18, 2018, 11:44:57 PM
Hey! I already commented today! And now you post something so cool I have to think about my post again.

Well I'm not going to.

Not until I can come up with something better than 'wow!'.  :o
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on September 18, 2018, 11:54:34 PM
Did the cylinder cock lever open them on all the engines at once?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gbritnell on September 19, 2018, 12:36:58 AM
Chris,
I love watching the parts come to life from a block of metal. My favorite kind of work!
gbritnell
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 19, 2018, 01:20:48 AM
Did the cylinder cock lever open them on all the engines at once?
The one lever opens all the drains on the hoist and slew engines together. The steering engine was on a local lever, but that is next to the boiler backhead, so the boiler engineer could do that one. The crowd engine drain and throttle was on a set of levers at the lower pulley on the turntable. Very different having four twin cylinder steam engines on one machine.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 19, 2018, 01:21:54 AM
Hey! I already commented today! And now you post something so cool I have to think about my post again.

Well I'm not going to.

Not until I can come up with something better than 'wow!'.  :o
Wow, I made Zee (almost) speachless?!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 19, 2018, 01:23:04 AM
Chris,
I love watching the parts come to life from a block of metal. My favorite kind of work!
gbritnell


Thanks George! I love sculpture, getting the useful shape out of the block!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 19, 2018, 02:14:41 AM
Hey! I already commented today! And now you post something so cool I have to think about my post again.

Well I'm not going to.

Not until I can come up with something better than 'wow!'.  :o
Wow, I made Zee (almost) speachless?!   :Lol:

I suspect I'm not the only one left speechless on this build.  ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on September 19, 2018, 05:36:58 AM
Hey Chris,
Amazing work, as always!  :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:

Kim

Even if you did chew up 99% of a perfectly good big chunk of beautiful brass!  Lets see, $1.25 in brass for the part, and $95.75 of brass swarf.  Sounds like a deal to me!  :o

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on September 19, 2018, 06:42:38 AM
Hello Chris

Incredible how you see parts in solid blocks of metal. Like everyone else here, truly enjoy your work.

Have a great day.
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on September 19, 2018, 07:09:49 AM
Ooofffff.. can I come up for air now??? Wow, that's a great session on a tough little part!

Lovin' it!!

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 19, 2018, 02:20:51 PM
Hey Chris,
Amazing work, as always!  :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:

Kim

Even if you did chew up 99% of a perfectly good big chunk of beautiful brass!  Lets see, $1.25 in brass for the part, and $95.75 of brass swarf.  Sounds like a deal to me!  :o


 :Lol:


No where near that bad, the bar was only about 1.5" long, didn't pay $100 even for all 6 feet of it!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 19, 2018, 04:12:04 PM
The last steps on the bracket are done, drilling/tapping the 0-80 mounting holes, and cutting the notches for the latch with a fine blade hacksaw. Its all assembled on the floor and working well, ready to start connecting up the linkage rods.
Kim, as you can see here, the part is pretty small, so there was not mutch wasted on the bar stock:
(https://i.postimg.cc/y6mYqDxW/IMG_3507.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Dy7f7746/IMG_3509.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 20, 2018, 12:22:52 AM
Getting close to finishing the work on the under-floor controls (later on when the cab is framed up, there are two more that hang from the ceiling). I made up the handle for the dog clutch, and the hoist drum brake pedal. Both were silver soldered up from two bits of flat steel. The top of the pedal was held in place for soldering by drilling a hole in the top, and turning a matching post on the end of the shank. The L-shaped pieces were just set next to each other on the firebrick for soldering. After soldering, they were cleaned up and shaped on the belt sander.
(https://i.postimg.cc/76sdSjyT/IMG_3511.jpg)
Here is where they will sit through the floor - they were just propped in place for this shot.
(https://i.postimg.cc/yxD5jnVp/IMG_3512.jpg)
And the control rods that run from the hand levers back to the cranks under the floor were cut to length and the fronts loctited in place in the clevises.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MHgLFRH6/IMG_3513.jpg)
These rods were cut about half the length required, and have a short tube coupler on the other end, held with grub screws. When the floor assembly is put back in the frame, I can feed these rods through the cross frames. Then, I'll be able to measure the exact length needed for the remaining parts of the rods, loctite them into the rear clevises, and then screw them into the couplers. That way the controls can always be removed for any repairs or changes later on without much trouble. The full length rods would be tough to feed into place and get the clevises bolted in otherwise - on the real machine there is room to get a person into the gaps in the frames with tools - on the model, only a shop-elf will fit, and they are too hard to bribe for this kind of work!



Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jeff Michel on September 20, 2018, 01:34:33 AM
That was brilliant.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 20, 2018, 02:24:30 AM
That was brilliant.
Thanks Jeff, great to have you along for the journey!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on September 20, 2018, 06:06:28 AM
Just amazing work on those little levers and foot controls!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: jonesie on September 20, 2018, 02:31:53 PM
Chris this project is coming along great ,you are doing some really nice work. this is a fun project to watch as was your last build of the log hauler thanks for sharing
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 20, 2018, 03:04:56 PM
Thanks guys!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 20, 2018, 09:13:02 PM
And finishing up on the control levers and linkages (well, some final connections still but they cannot be done until the engines are made later on).

One thing I forgot to do the other day was give the dog clutch handle a quarter twist, so the bottom end mates up with the control arm below the floor:
(https://i.postimg.cc/rF2L3bhT/IMG_3514.jpg)
Then I made up the final connecting rods for all the linkages, and got them installed. One more time to have the model do a nose-stand to be able to work underneath. In order to get the rods in place, I also removed the floor plate on that side.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pXQtHZ7F/IMG_3517.jpg)
Here is a view from up top at the connections:
(https://i.postimg.cc/MpWJKB2r/IMG_3518.jpg)
And the levers:
(https://i.postimg.cc/XYQSZvnN/IMG_3520.jpg)
Everything moves as it should, so I think this wraps up the controls for now. The next stage of the build will be the gear trains that sit in the center of the cab, some extending down through the large opening in the floor and hanging underneath the frame. Here is a render from the 3D CAD model of the trains:
(https://i.postimg.cc/76cq5ZMJ/Gear_Train.jpg)

At the upper left are the gears and winding drum for the slew engine, which spin the turntable left and right. In the center is the main hoist drum and gears. It has two bands around the rim of the drum, one to engage the gears and the drum to hoist the bucket, the other is the brake band for controlled lowering of the bucket. On the near side of the drum is another gear trains that sends power down to the drive shafts at the bottom, which turn the front tracks. Behind the center holder is a dog clutch for engaging the track drive to the hoist engine gear train. The shafts coming out either side are have universal joints at the ends.
All in all, quite a set of gears. I am currently updating the plan sheets for these (realized I had botched the shapes of some of the spokes in the CAD model), and calculating out the cutters and diameters for each gear. Rather than changing setups back and forth for each one, I will make them all up as a batch, then make the shafts and holding plates for them.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on September 20, 2018, 09:39:07 PM
Hello Chris,

Is that small wood floor all that the operator had to stand on?

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 20, 2018, 10:13:38 PM
Hello Chris,

Is that small wood floor all that the operator had to stand on?

Have a great day,
Thomas
Yes - it fills the space between the A-frame and the cab front wall, and on its right is the guide sheaves for the slew chain. Having been in the real one, there is enough space for one person to comfortably stand, not much if someone needs to walk past him though.

Its interesting to look at old photos of the shovels, and notice that in almost all cases the owners (or crew) added scaffolding on the outside of the cab to get from front to back of the machine, since there is barely enough room to walk inside the cab, its more one-foot-in-front-of-the-other, since the machinery takes up almost the entire width. The only ones with much room are the boiler engineer and fireman, back behind the boiler, though that space was full of coal piles.
(https://i.postimg.cc/c1PzxGj5/Marion_91_Close_Inside_View_-_small.png)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on September 20, 2018, 10:37:42 PM
By heck Chris this thread jumps ahead.
I spend a day & 1/2 traveling & you add 2 1/2 pages!
Going to have to have another coffee while I try to catch up.

Great work!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 21, 2018, 07:35:34 PM
By heck Chris this thread jumps ahead.
I spend a day & 1/2 traveling & you add 2 1/2 pages!
Going to have to have another coffee while I try to catch up.

Great work!

Cheers Kerrin
:cheers:
There is my fall trip up to maine to play with the Lombard at the lumber museum coming up, that will give you time to catch up!
 :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 21, 2018, 07:47:01 PM
Finished updating the plans for the gear trains, and made notes of all the diameters, thicknesses, and hub hole diameters for all the gears (there are 12 of them altogether). Given that the number of teeth and diameters were scaled down from the real machine, and that I only have certain sizes of gear cutter sets, I had to adjust the number of teeth on these slightly to maintain the desired outside diameter, which I figure is more important. The closest set I have is Module 1, which is very close but not exact to the scaled down sizes - had to add several teeth to each gear (one to the smallest, several to the largest) to get spacings to work out. Thats not bad, considering I am matching a 112 year old machine. Getting the exact size would have needed a Module 0.94461 cutter seet, which is unlikely to be in the catalogs!


This afternoon I started cutting down the bar stock for a blank for each one. Here are the first 6 of them being trimmed to thickness:
(https://i.postimg.cc/wTJ8YzPj/IMG_3524.jpg)
And then drilled/bored the hub holes. The smallest were just drilled, the larger ones were drilled then bored to dimension to ensure a good clean round hole.
(https://i.postimg.cc/YCHcpVKf/IMG_3525.jpg)
The next batch are larger than any round bar that I have on hand, and will be cut from some 3/8"x3" flat bar. The three largest are too big to get out of the largest bar stock I have, so I have ordered some discs for those. The step after getting them to thickness and the holes bored is to make up some arbors to hold them out from the chuck for turning them to diameter and then cutting the teeth. The largest ones won't fit on my lathe, and will need to be milled round on the rotary table.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on September 21, 2018, 09:47:34 PM
Still with you Dog and still amazed! Awesome work and well documented thread........ :ThumbsUp:


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 21, 2018, 11:04:58 PM
Still with you Dog and still amazed! Awesome work and well documented thread........ :ThumbsUp:


 :cheers:
Don


Thanks Don!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 22, 2018, 09:41:29 PM
A few more gear blanks to thickness/diameter and hub holes drilled. The three largest still to go...
The small ones will be taken to diameter once the arbor is ready.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8kyBxxdY/IMG_3526.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: galland on September 23, 2018, 02:34:23 AM
Was doing a little research on the Marion Shovels and found a website with a bunch of photos of a 5760 shovel being assembled. It is amazing and huge. If anyone is interested.        www.stripmine.org/5760_slideshow.htm

      Gary
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 23, 2018, 02:52:01 AM
Was doing a little research on the Marion Shovels and found a website with a bunch of photos of a 5760 shovel being assembled. It is amazing and huge. If anyone is interested.        www.stripmine.org/5760_slideshow.htm (http://www.stripmine.org/5760_slideshow.htm)

      Gary


Wow, that is enormous!! It needs its own zip code. Thanks!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on September 23, 2018, 08:45:59 AM
OK Chris, when are you going to start building this one? :facepalm:

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 23, 2018, 02:33:04 PM
OK Chris, when are you going to start building this one? :facepalm:

Have a great day,
Thomas
NO!  NOT!!  Did you see how many tracks?


Besides, Zee needs a project!   :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on September 23, 2018, 03:35:46 PM
OK Chris, when are you going to start building this one? :facepalm:

Have a great day,
Thomas
NO!  NOT!!  Did you see how many tracks?


Besides, Zee needs a project!   :LittleDevil:

Hey Chris,

I'm thinking quarter-scale..... :LittleDevil:

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 23, 2018, 03:42:31 PM
OK Chris, when are you going to start building this one? :facepalm:

Have a great day,
Thomas
NO!  NOT!!  Did you see how many tracks?


Besides, Zee needs a project!   :LittleDevil:

Hey Chris,

I'm thinking quarter-scale..... :LittleDevil:

Have a great day,
Thomas
Gack....
I am going to need to borrow your shop. And your welder. And a crew of workers. And a spare field to build it in...   :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: galland on September 23, 2018, 04:42:50 PM
Say Chris,  After thinking the 5760 was a monster (2,560 tons) I found out it was the baby of their large units. Their big one was the 6360 and was 15,000 ton and the largest land vehicle ever built. Just amazing.

    Gary
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 23, 2018, 05:08:03 PM
Thats a BIG baby!
Its amazing that anything that size can move. I've got a copy of the Marion shovel movie DVD from the HCEA, it has footage from the Model 92's up through these giant monsters, amazing to see them in action.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 23, 2018, 09:22:55 PM
Today I made up the arbor for the smaller gears, and got the blanks turned down to diameter. Since the holes in the hubs are all different sizes for the different shafts, I used the largest screw I could for the cap (10-32) and made up a set of little sleeves for the rest of the blanks. These sleeves are a close fit to the gear holes, and are slightly shorter than the gears are thick, so they do not touch the cap before the gear. The cap on the arbor and the center of the arbor end are relieved slightly, so that the cap and the arbor contact the gears out at the rim for best holding power. These gears will not have spokes, so all that is left on these is to cut the teeth.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cJdgQN6L/IMG_3532.jpg)
Here is the setup on the mill, with the rotary table set up vertically, and the cutter centered on the gear. Each gear cutter is good for a range of number of teeth, the first one takes a nbr 2 cutter from the M1 set.
(https://i.postimg.cc/5tpHgkFq/IMG_3534.jpg)
Now, it may appear that the arbor is longer than necessary, and it is a bit - I am planning on using the other end for the larger gears that need spokes, and the narrow end can go into the chuck a bit. The length needs to be enough for the headstock to clear the 4-jaw and rotary table when it is at the finish of the cut, I've been caught on that before and now make sure the arbor is long enough for the smaller gears. I like using the 4-jaw for these operations since it seems to grip better than the 3-jaw scroll chuck. I'll leave this arbor in place through all of the operations on these gears, to ensure that the arbor stays dead centered - it in place since it was turned and drilled. The end of the arbor had to narrow down for the smaller gears, otherwise the cutter would hit it before the cuts were completely through the gear blanks. For the larger gears, I'll keep it at full diameter.
We have our first run of the fall for the RC submarines at the local indoor pool tonight, so I will start cutting gears tomorrow.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on September 23, 2018, 09:51:13 PM
The Saturn missile transporter was also built by Marion and is the largest self-propelled vehicle.  The 6350 apparently was powered externally.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 23, 2018, 10:33:08 PM
The Saturn missile transporter was also built by Marion and is the largest self-propelled vehicle.  The 6350 apparently was powered externally.
I believe that they used that transporter for the shuttle as well, it still is there at Canaveral. It even featured on an episode of Dirty Jobs, cleaning and greasing the tracks.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on September 23, 2018, 10:54:04 PM
A long arbor is a good thing. I have, in my collection of "Oh shits" a #4 cutter that was ran into the hardened corner of my vice because the arbor I was using was too short.---Not pretty!!!.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on September 23, 2018, 11:47:42 PM
Was doing a little research on the Marion Shovels and found a website with a bunch of photos of a 5760 shovel being assembled. It is amazing and huge. If anyone is interested.        www.stripmine.org/5760_slideshow.htm

      Gary

Hi Gary its a good job they all have those hard hats !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 24, 2018, 02:32:27 AM
Was doing a little research on the Marion Shovels and found a website with a bunch of photos of a 5760 shovel being assembled. It is amazing and huge. If anyone is interested.        www.stripmine.org/5760_slideshow.htm (http://www.stripmine.org/5760_slideshow.htm)

      Gary

Hi Gary its a good job they all have those hard hats !!!!!!!!!!!!!
If you want a BIG model, someone has a pair of dragline buckets, real, for sale on ebay, though you better have a really big truck!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: MJM460 on September 24, 2018, 11:21:34 AM
I was thinking about driving those things.

A drag race from the lights would not be very exciting, but you would always have right of way!

Looking forward to learning about beat cutting, you have quite a pile of blanks there.

MJM460
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 24, 2018, 11:20:21 PM
I was thinking about driving those things.

A drag race from the lights would not be very exciting, but you would always have right of way!

Looking forward to learning about beat cutting, you have quite a pile of blanks there.

MJM460
Oh look, that guy in the car is cutting me off..... SQUISH!    ::)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 24, 2018, 11:36:16 PM
Got a start on the gears this afternoon, starting with the smallest one. This one determined how small the end of the arbor needed to be, just smaller than the valleys between the teeth.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CKT3b9Xd/IMG_3535.jpg)

This view shows where the cutter moves to at the end of the cut, and why that section of the arbor needed to be smaller too:
(https://i.postimg.cc/bvxKg3fg/IMG_3536.jpg)
So, the first three gears are cut, all Module 1 but different diameters/number of teeth. The fourth would be done, but a brain fart interfered and I had to remake the blank for it...   :wallbang:
(https://i.postimg.cc/j5RBFPsb/IMG_3540.jpg)
I am using the Sherline rotary table for cutting the gears - the handwheel on it is set up to be 5 degrees per full turn of the handle, and the handwheel is marked down to a tenth of a degree. What I did a few years ago was figure out the formulas for making a list of handwheel settings based on how many teeth in the gear - it tells me how many full turns and what number to stop at so that I can just follow the list without having to do any math on the fly. Its easy to do a gear that divides into 360 degrees evenly, but for example a 21 tooth gear works out to be three full turns of the wheel from the current position, stopping at handwheel markings: 0, 21.4, 42.9, 14.3, 35.7, 7.1, 28.6 . Those are the handwheel markings, not the number of degrees on the edge of the table, and in this case the sequence repeats every 7 teeth. Having that list makes it really easy to follow the sequence, checking off each move and cut as I go, with less likelyhood to miscount anything. Some of the lists for very large gears get very long, others are very short, like for a 16 tooth wheel its 4 turns and stop at 0, then 4 turns to 25. Spreadsheets can be very handy things!
Its still important to make sure that the cutter is set to the proper height, centered on the blank (and locked down), that the proper cutter is picked for each gear (each cutter in the set is good for a certain range of number of teeth), that the table is moved in to the proper depth of cut for each size gear (and locked down), that I remember to check off each move/cut as I go, and to keep distractions (TV, phone, talkative elves, etc) kept away.  Other than that, gear cutting is a breeze!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on September 25, 2018, 02:04:34 AM
Did pretty much the same thing when I got my dividing head.  40 turns of the handle is 360 degrees.  Also 6 plates supplied with a plethora of different hole configurations.

I gave up trying to figure out the documentation and wrote my first program  :cartwheel: since retirement to tell me the disk circle to use and the handle turns- disk holes to advance for any number of gear teeth I might want to cut.

Old skills are still pretty handy once in a while.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 25, 2018, 02:10:17 AM
Did pretty much the same thing when I got my dividing head.  40 turns of the handle is 360 degrees.  Also 6 plates supplied with a plethora of different hole configurations.

I gave up trying to figure out the documentation and wrote my first program  :cartwheel: since retirement to tell me the disk circle to use and the handle turns- disk holes to advance for any number of gear teeth I might want to cut.

Old skills are still pretty handy once in a while.  :cheers:
Absolutely, little bit of pre figuring makes a complex task (mostly) easy. Like the little utilities that Don, others have made.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 25, 2018, 06:33:45 PM
And the gear pile is still growing, up to the mid-sized ones now. The spokes will be cut in later, after all the gear teeth are done, to minimize switching the rotary table back and forth.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XJmmRGNv/IMG_3542.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on September 25, 2018, 08:16:09 PM
Nice gear work there old chap. I gave my BIL the Sherline CNC rotary table a couple of years ago for Christmas. He does clock repair and now when he has to cut a pinion, he cuts about 2-4” of it and then parts off what he needs; saving the rest for the next time.

Whiskey
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on September 25, 2018, 08:21:04 PM
Damn nice gear work Dog!


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on September 25, 2018, 08:57:44 PM
Nice looking gears, Chris!
They get slower as you get to the bigger ones, don't they!

Enjoying the show!  :popcorn:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 25, 2018, 09:25:16 PM



Thanks guys!

Nice looking gears, Chris!
They get slower as you get to the bigger ones, don't they!

Enjoying the show!  :popcorn:
Kim
Oh yeah! Gotta take breaks between them now.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dave Otto on September 26, 2018, 01:03:03 AM
Nice looking gears Chris!  :ThumbsUp:

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 26, 2018, 01:10:27 AM
Nice looking gears Chris!  :ThumbsUp:

Dave
Thanks Dave, still a few more larger ones to cut, then can start on adding the spokes to them.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on September 26, 2018, 12:51:08 PM
I was going to poke you about how with a CNC mill and 4th axis machining all those gears would be so simple.  But I decided not to.   :stickpoke:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 26, 2018, 07:09:03 PM
I was going to poke you about how with a CNC mill and 4th axis machining all those gears would be so simple.  But I decided not to.   :stickpoke:
Thanks! That would have been annoying!   :ROFL:
At least this way I can say that I made them, not the machine!   :stickpoke:
Actually, it would have gotten me some progress today, rather than spending most of it waiting around in the jury room downtown - got called in for jury duty, but got excused from a 6-week murder/kidnapping trial since I already had booked my trip up to Maine for the fall event at the logging museum.  Whew!  The short day or two trials are not a problem, served on a number of those, but I can't imagine being stuck there for 6 or 8 weeks at one go.

So, should be back in the shop again tomorrow, Counting Number Cranks'ing!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Stuart on September 26, 2018, 07:27:45 PM
Your lucky with the jury duty

I got called up , it was a nasty case a teacher abusing under age girls at a deaf boarding school , all evidence was in sign language BSL


And yes he went down , that was dramatic when the judge said “ take xxxx down “

Nasty but glad I did it , but too old now  :old:

Great build very interesting the way you sort out your machining ,

When I worked at the iron works as an apprentice sparks we had a visit to Corby steel works they took us out in the back of a lorry to see the walking drag line , we thought that’s big , but we were two miles away ,

This one has a 20 ton over head crane in the body and trailed a 11kv cable for power , inside it was spotless , idea of size the tip of the boom rotated at 30 mph

But boy was it a sight to see it walk ,or lumber along
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 26, 2018, 07:35:39 PM
...
Great build very interesting the way you sort out your machining ,

When I worked at the iron works as an apprentice sparks we had a visit to Corby steel works they took us out in the back of a lorry to see the walking drag line , we thought that’s big , but we were two miles away ,

This one has a 20 ton over head crane in the body and trailed a 11kv cable for power , inside it was spotless , idea of size the tip of the boom rotated at 30 mph

But boy was it a sight to see it walk ,or lumber along
That must have been a fascinating sight to see - they had a small (truck crane size machine) dragline running at one of the local steam shows here, very interesting to watch it go. The one truly big machine I got to see in person was the ginormous radio telescope down in West Virginia, went over there when I went to see the Shay locos at the Cass museum. The maintenance guys were just leaving it when the tour bus pulled up, so we got to see it rotate back from the level position, like watching a skyscraper turning over.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on September 26, 2018, 07:37:32 PM
I was called in the early nineties and when I went to check in, while the clerk was getting my paperwork ready, I loudly exclaimed: “Man I’ve been wanting to do this since they screwed up the OJ trial”. EXCUSED
Actually, wasn’t called again until they changed our voter districts.

Whiskey
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Bluechip on September 26, 2018, 07:53:22 PM
...
Great build very interesting the way you sort out your machining ,

When I worked at the iron works as an apprentice sparks we had a visit to Corby steel works they took us out in the back of a lorry to see the walking drag line , we thought that’s big , but we were two miles away ,

This one has a 20 ton over head crane in the body and trailed a 11kv cable for power , inside it was spotless , idea of size the tip of the boom rotated at 30 mph

But boy was it a sight to see it walk ,or lumber along
That must have been a fascinating sight to see - they had a small (truck crane size machine) dragline running at one of the local steam shows here, very interesting to watch it go. The one truly big machine I got to see in person was the ginormous radio telescope down in West Virginia, went over there when I went to see the Shay locos at the Cass museum. The maintenance guys were just leaving it when the tour bus pulled up, so we got to see it rotate back from the level position, like watching a skyscraper turning over.

I've been inside this one.  1980-2 ish.  :headscratch:  :old: When I was young and cute ...  :LittleAngel:

https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-big-geordie-1970-online

Not while it was in operation though.  Just a quick tour through the thing.  Makes one feel rather small ....

Dave

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 26, 2018, 08:42:11 PM
...
Great build very interesting the way you sort out your machining ,

When I worked at the iron works as an apprentice sparks we had a visit to Corby steel works they took us out in the back of a lorry to see the walking drag line , we thought that’s big , but we were two miles away ,

This one has a 20 ton over head crane in the body and trailed a 11kv cable for power , inside it was spotless , idea of size the tip of the boom rotated at 30 mph

But boy was it a sight to see it walk ,or lumber along
That must have been a fascinating sight to see - they had a small (truck crane size machine) dragline running at one of the local steam shows here, very interesting to watch it go. The one truly big machine I got to see in person was the ginormous radio telescope down in West Virginia, went over there when I went to see the Shay locos at the Cass museum. The maintenance guys were just leaving it when the tour bus pulled up, so we got to see it rotate back from the level position, like watching a skyscraper turning over.

I've been inside this one.  1980-2 ish.  :headscratch: :old: When I was young and cute ...  :LittleAngel:

https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-big-geordie-1970-online (https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-big-geordie-1970-online)

Not while it was in operation though.  Just a quick tour through the thing.  Makes one feel rather small ....

Dave
:o
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: pgp001 on September 26, 2018, 10:33:59 PM
Gears are "easy peasy" when you have a Swiss Mikron gear hobbing machine, once it is set up you just leave it for a few minutes whilst it gets on with churning gears out.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10026/Mikron_112_Hobber.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10026/PICT0129.JPG)

I made these gears for the supercharger on Mike Sayers model blower Bentley engine that some of you will have seen.
They had to mesh together with almost zero backlash so the blower rotors did not crash into each other.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10026/DSC03777.jpg)

Phil
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 26, 2018, 10:56:27 PM
Phil, very nice bit of kit! I think that machine wieghs more than my whole model shop (floor and walls included) ! It does a wonderful job though.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: pgp001 on September 26, 2018, 11:16:25 PM
Yes, its not a machine that gets used a lot but it is a very sturdy, and as you say very heavy tool.
I have had it for a lot of years now and it was originally my fathers, I have used it quite a bit for making gears for repairing antique musical boxes amongst other things.

This is a repair to a spring barrel that had stripped a few teeth, A new pair of mating gears was produced and I changed to tooth profile from the original cycloidal type to be involute in this case as I had a suitable hob.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10026/001.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10026/002.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10026/004.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10026/005.jpg)

The hardest thing these days is finding the cutters or hobs as they are called, I dropped lucky last month and found another seven sizes that I did not have at a decent price.
The machine will do up to about five inches diameter, so can be used for quite a few model engineering jobs. The next thing that will be done on it are a set of gears for a Meek screwcutting dog clutch for a friends Warco lathe.

Phil
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 26, 2018, 11:18:43 PM
That spring barrel looks just like the one I made for a clock (has not stripped the teeth yet, fortunately).

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 27, 2018, 03:55:10 PM
Well, I WAS going to cut all the gear teeth before starting on the spokes, but the folks over at Midwest Steel And Aluminum swarfed me over on the shipment of the larger stock I ordered last week, claimed it shipped Monday but it sat on their shelf till I called them last night, now it wont be here till next week.
 :cussing:

So, while I have dispatched a small team of Ninja Attack Elves to parachute in and pour salt in their coffee, I have reset the mill for spoke cutting, and have cut the spokes on the first gear.


As with the steering gear, I included the centerpoint offsets from center and angle between the holes at the corners of all the spokes in the 3D model plans. Using those numbers, I centered the rotary table under the mill head, and moved out the distance for the inner and outer holes, which were drilled at 60 degree centers at the appropriate size. I like to sketch in the edges of the spokes before continuing, to ensure that I mill on the proper side.

(https://i.postimg.cc/cL9CdfDs/IMG_3544.jpg)
Then I moved out and milled the arcs at the outside edge, started the first cut back from the final dimension, and finishing off with some lighter cuts for a better finish.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0NzQjr37/IMG_3545.jpg)
Here it is after the finish cuts, you can see the difference in the inner and outer edges of the slots.
(https://i.postimg.cc/t4C70BNS/IMG_3547.jpg)
Then did the same for the sides of the spokes, cut down the side away from the finished dimension, and took some lighter cuts to finish up.
(https://i.postimg.cc/C1DxCXw1/IMG_3550.jpg)
The spokes have a slight taper, so these passes used the angles from the 3D model to set the rotab, so the cuts came out tangent to the arcs in the corners.
Final step was to thin the spokes down to finished dimensions. A .075 deep cut was made on both sides.

(https://i.postimg.cc/nLNLDpbg/IMG_3552.jpg)
And the pile o gears so far...
(https://i.postimg.cc/d3Yt5609/IMG_3555.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on September 27, 2018, 04:21:42 PM
Hello Chris,

Looks to be more brass swarf than gear.. :ROFL: however the gears look great as always.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 27, 2018, 04:30:17 PM
Hello Chris,

Looks to be more brass swarf than gear.. :ROFL: however the gears look great as always.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Always the way unless casting. Or metal printing.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 28, 2018, 09:02:18 PM
Some more spoke cutting (spokering? Spokification? spaking? ) today, between working on the travel base for the model to take it to Maine.
(https://i.postimg.cc/nLFFHFgx/IMG_3556.jpg)
I have one more smaller one to cut the spokes on, then should be getting the stock for the largest gears on Monday (largest one is 106 teeth, module 1). As with most things, practice makes each one go faster.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on September 28, 2018, 11:22:39 PM
Looking good Chris you are a gear cutting fool but a good one. You do know I have a spreadsheet on straight spoke cutting.
http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,1271.msg16738.html#msg16738


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 29, 2018, 12:16:59 AM
Looking good Chris you are a gear cutting fool but a good one. You do know I have a spreadsheet on straight spoke cutting.
http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,1271.msg16738.html#msg16738 (http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,1271.msg16738.html#msg16738)


 :cheers:
Don
Yes - got that spreadsheet from you a couple projects back,I  have used it quite a bit. These spokes are all tapered from hub to rim, plus the radius of the arcs at each end of the spokes is different, so I had the 3D CAD app tell me the offsets, diameters, and angles to use for them. It worked out well, those numbers told me what diameter and where to drill the corner holes, and what angles to mill at.

Thanks!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 29, 2018, 12:22:57 AM
When I got to cutting the smallest of the spoked gears in the train, I saw that the outer corner holes would overlap, which is never good for drilling the second hole. They were 1/4" diameter, so I drilled the first one normally, then used a 1/4" end mill to cut the arc over to where the second hole would be, rather than drilling both and milling between them. Same end result:
(https://i.postimg.cc/VNLnTb9P/IMG_3557.jpg)
Then milled the sides of the spokes as normal. This finished off all but the three largest gears:
(https://i.postimg.cc/XvHd07xG/IMG_3558.jpg)
The stock for those three gears won't be here till Monday, so this weekend will be spent getting the rest of the travel base for the Marion made, and getting it and the Lombard ready to travel up to the show in Maine next weekend. Then I can get to work on the last three gears in this set. I think the only other gears to be made will be the two small ones for the crowd engine, might make them while I am at it.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on September 29, 2018, 01:16:51 AM
Hi Chris,
 The elves are doing a great job! Could of used them to move the holes for my sons deck.....or are they allergic to digging?

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 29, 2018, 01:18:45 AM
Hi Chris,
 The elves are doing a great job! Could of used them to move the holes for my sons deck.....or are they allergic to digging?

Cheers Kerrin
They would want to wait and dig with the Marion!


 :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on September 29, 2018, 03:57:12 AM
Hi Chris,
 So they will be here in a couple of days then! :lolb:

They only need to drive to Alberta at the moment, no need to make it water tight!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 29, 2018, 02:51:35 PM
Hi Chris,
 So they will be here in a couple of days then! :lolb:

They only need to drive to Alberta at the moment, no need to make it water tight!

Cheers Kerrin
Stand out on the porch with cookies, some elves will show up soon....


 :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on September 29, 2018, 04:20:53 PM
When I got to cutting the smallest of the spoked gears in the train, I saw that the outer corner holes would overlap, which is never good for drilling the second hole. They were 1/4" diameter, so I drilled the first one normally, then used a 1/4" end mill to cut the arc over to where the second hole would be, rather than drilling both and milling between them.

I do believe you've helped me avoid a future disaster.  :ThumbsUp:

Stand out on the porch with cookies, some elves will show up soon....

Depends on the cookie. I typically get moochers (the kids).
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 29, 2018, 07:38:42 PM
When I got to cutting the smallest of the spoked gears in the train, I saw that the outer corner holes would overlap, which is never good for drilling the second hole. They were 1/4" diameter, so I drilled the first one normally, then used a 1/4" end mill to cut the arc over to where the second hole would be, rather than drilling both and milling between them.

I do believe you've helped me avoid a future disaster.  :ThumbsUp:

Stand out on the porch with cookies, some elves will show up soon....

Depends on the cookie. I typically get moochers (the kids).


Glad that tip helped, I have been bitten by that, the drill would pull into the first hole.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: JC54 on September 29, 2018, 11:23:12 PM
No good standing out on the porch,, shop elves are still on their annual outing to Chris's workshop!!!! see reply 2118 second picture?? :lolb: :old: :DrinkPint:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 29, 2018, 11:44:25 PM
No good standing out on the porch,, shop elves are still on their annual outing to Chris's workshop!!!! see reply 2118 second picture?? :lolb: :old: :DrinkPint:


 :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 30, 2018, 07:44:50 PM
Since I am waiting for the stock for the last three gears - should be here tomorrow - I skipped ahead to start prepping the stock for the slew gear train frame. It needs to be .3125 thick, and start at 3-1/2" x 2-3/4" before cutting in the bevels. That is wider than any stock that thickness I have, and not worth paying for a short length that wide, so I took some .3125" x 1.5" bar in 303 steel, and joined two lengths side by side for each plate. Two holes were drilled/tapped/countersunk for some 5-40 SHCS's, and the parts/screws all loctited together.
(https://i.postimg.cc/NGnMs53Y/IMG_3559.jpg)
On the original, the plates, at 5" thick, were just bolted on end to the main I-beams under the floor, and also they abut the sides of the hoist engine crosshead guides. For the model, I decided it would be best to add a crossbar at the bottom, so that I can handle this section of the gear train as a rigid unit. So, added another length of the bar crosswise, also screwed in. These screws will be hidden by the hoist engine crosshead. They will not be loctited in till later, after all the shaping is done for the two side plates - they get angled ends, and bearing caps where the axles go on.

(https://i.postimg.cc/YqmSht7F/IMG_3561.jpg)
And yes, the plate halves are lined up properly, that line you are seeing is just how the lights caught the slightly rounded corners of the plates. Later on after the loctite has cured up I will take the plates to length/height and start cutting in the angled portions. They will look like the plate on the left end in this rendering:
(https://i.postimg.cc/76cq5ZMJ/Gear_Train.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 30, 2018, 10:04:53 PM
And got the outline of the side plates laid out,
(https://i.postimg.cc/MGwgJJqV/IMG_3563.jpg)
and rough cut a bit outside those lines
(https://i.postimg.cc/DzcH2pwD/IMG_3565.jpg)
and milled to measured dimensions...
(https://i.postimg.cc/85P3sdFC/IMG_3566.jpg)
Once the gears are cut for it (it holds two of the larger gears, still to be cut), I will use a meshing tool to get the exact distances apart for the axle bearings.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 01, 2018, 10:06:32 PM
While waiting for the gear stock this afternoon, I made up the core of the winding drum for the slew chain, which swings the main boom side to side. Its a simple round bar, with a piece of plate bolted to the side to act as the limit for the chain. The drum abuts the final gear, which has no spokes, which acts as the plate on the opposite side. There will be a pair of half-loops on either side that the ends of the slew chains attach to.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bN6QKX0B/IMG_3570.jpg)
Got the stock for the last three chains in this afternoon, and started out by laying out and drilling the center holes. The two smaller ones fit inside my biggest mill vise, which is almost the size of the table on the Sherline!
(https://i.postimg.cc/xj3G3NXY/IMG_3567.jpg)
The largest one would not fit in that vise, so I clamped it to the table on some 1-2-3 blocks. All were drilled then bored out to final size. On the last one, the stock is already the diameter for the gear (4-1/2"), so as I bored I stopped and measured the distance from the edge of the hole to the rim on each side, made a couple small adjustments to get the hole as centered as possible. On the two smaller ones, the bars will be turned down to final size so the hole just had to be close.

(https://i.postimg.cc/vThWYkJD/IMG_3568.jpg)
After all the holes were done, the two smaller ones were taken down to diameter and thickness on the lathe - they just cleared the ways.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4N46L4cc/IMG_3569.jpg)
The seller gave their cutting tolerances when I ordered, so I had gone up to the next fractional size that ensured the blank would be thick enough. Turns out their cuts were nice and straight across and a little thicker than speced, so no problem getting the finished size out, just had to turn down one side to clean it up then the other taken down till it met thickness. That left the hub a little long on one side which will be cleaned up later. The largest blank is too large for the lathe, so I will either put in the riser block on the headstock, or trim the thickness on the mill using the rotary table, have not decided which yet.


Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 02, 2018, 01:12:38 AM
Decided to go with trimming the last blank on the mill, quicker than switching the headstock and tool holder back and forth on the lathe. Here are the last three blanks (with the rest of the family-o-gears), ready to start cutting teeth tomorrow.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vHf2WZWd/IMG_3571.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 02, 2018, 03:13:22 PM
This morning I started cutting the teeth on the last three gears, starting with the biggest one, a 106 tooth module 1 gear. Here it is half way around (good breaking point, the pattern of moves repeats at 53 teeth).
(https://i.postimg.cc/mkbV1wXn/IMG_3573.jpg)
Taking a concentration-break at this point, dont want to let the brain wander and goof a toof!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 02, 2018, 05:10:26 PM
And next step.... you guessed it... the other half is cut!  I think this is the largest diameter gear I have made so far, though not the most teeth on one, there were a couple of clock gears with more but smaller teeth.
(https://i.postimg.cc/j21XpZyk/IMG_3574.jpg)
It meshes well with the smaller ones (big relief) so on to the next one....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 02, 2018, 08:16:18 PM
Still watching every day Chris. I'm two teeth up on you. The biggest gear I've cut is 108 teeth, currently on the drag saw.--Brian
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 02, 2018, 08:32:41 PM
Still watching every day Chris. I'm two teeth up on you. The biggest gear I've cut is 108 teeth, currently on the drag saw.--Brian
Sorry to one-up on you, but as I mentioned there were some clock gears with more teeth - the main drive gears for my striking clock build have 168 teeth each. The diameter is smaller since they are a smaller module size tooth. This clock has a time train and a striking chain, strikes once on half hour and counts out the hour.

(https://i.postimg.cc/hjsS84wc/IMG_2336a.jpg)
 8)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 02, 2018, 08:39:32 PM
The last of the big gears has been 'toothed', ready for spoke cutting. The middle one does not get spokes, just a recessed face, since it acts as one wall of the slew chain winding drum.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pdXxWMrS/IMG_3576.jpg)
Before switching over to the spoke cutting, I think I'll get the last two gears needed on the project made, the small ones that go on the ends of the crowd engine and drive the large wheels on the main boom, to run the dipper boom in and out. Those are also module 1, 11 teeth each.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 02, 2018, 09:01:08 PM
I'm too old to cut a gear with 168 teeth. I might not live long enough to finish it.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on October 02, 2018, 09:20:15 PM
Fine work your doing with your gears, Chris.

The clock looks great too!  Unfortunately, it seems to be missing a few hands - hard to tell what time it is that way.  Of course, I guess you can just listen to the hour and half hour strikes I guess :)

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on October 02, 2018, 09:22:16 PM
Hello Chris,

Out of curiosity tell me the actual size of the largest gear that you just finished making and in relationship the actual size of that gear on the real machine.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 02, 2018, 09:55:52 PM
Fine work your doing with your gears, Chris.

The clock looks great too!  Unfortunately, it seems to be missing a few hands - hard to tell what time it is that way.  Of course, I guess you can just listen to the hour and half hour strikes I guess :)

Kim
Yeah, well, that shot was taken as the frame was finished, and before final assembly on the wall. Here it is in place and working:
(https://i.postimg.cc/SKQKRtDn/DSC_0107a.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 02, 2018, 10:00:49 PM
Hello Chris,

Out of curiosity tell me the actual size of the largest gear that you just finished making and in relationship the actual size of that gear on the real machine.

Have a great day,
Thomas
The largest one is 4-1/2" diameter, the real one is 16 times that, or 6 feet in diameter - quite a large beastie. It is the one for the main hoist winding drum, it will also have a steam operated clutch piston bolted to one of the spokes to clamp in with the clutch band. Quite an interesting mechanism, it takes steam from the valve though the axle and up the side of the spoke, there is a rotating gland at the end of the axle to feed in steam through the axle. Due to the weight of that piston, there is also a counterweight on the opposite spokes, like the ones on a driver wheel on a locomotive. Another place where finding the original patent documents filled in a lot of internal mechanisms not visible on the machine. The other end of the same axle has a gear that connects down to the track drive gear train, that has its own dog clutch to engage the tracks.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on October 02, 2018, 10:22:26 PM
Thanks Chris, it is incredible the amount of research that you have done on this project and the time that you spend replicating each part.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on October 03, 2018, 01:08:08 AM
Ah... there are the hands :)
Nice clock, Chris!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 03, 2018, 01:40:48 PM
Thomas, here is a drawing out of the Marion patent about the hoist clutch, showing the piston that is mounted to the spoke of the large gear. It is fed steam through the axle shaft from a small slide valve on the floor.
(https://i.postimg.cc/SR07ztDp/US666348_2_-_Hoist_Clutch.jpg)
These two captures from the 3D CAD model show the same thing, including the band around the drum that the clutch operates:
(https://i.postimg.cc/k56bFvVM/Gear_Train_v62_-_Hoist_Clutch.jpg)
Note that the clutch piston revolves with the gear. The drum sits on the axle shaft, but freewheels on the shaft unless the clutch band is tightened down to make it spin with the gear. One end of the band sits on a pin on the gear rim, the other end is on the end of the arm moved by the piston.

(https://i.postimg.cc/nLyQd974/Gear_Train_v62_-_Hoist_Clutch_Band.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on October 03, 2018, 01:58:11 PM
Hello Chris,

Wow, amazing.....I just love to see how our forefathers worked through problems. Thanks for showing this information, it makes your project even more interesting....if that is even possible.

Wouldn’t you love to have been an apprentice working on that project back in the day?

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on October 03, 2018, 02:04:10 PM
Hey again Chris,

Studying their original drawing, it appears that one cylinder is a "one-way" action and the second cylinder is a "spring return" action. Cool.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Vixen on October 03, 2018, 02:06:49 PM
Hello Chris

I love your attention to detail and the painstaking research that is behind it. You not only build a better model but you capture and record part of the history of a bygone age.

Mike
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 03, 2018, 02:08:56 PM
Hey again Chris,

Studying their original drawing, it appears that one cylinder is a "one-way" action and the second cylinder is a "spring return" action. Cool.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Thats right - the smaller cylinder has a coil spring to return the piston and arm when there is no steam pressing on it. They actually ran the exhaust and drain from the piston back down through the axle to keep it from spraying hot water drops around as the gear was spinning. For the model, that extra piping may not be possible.  Patent filings give an amazing amount of detail to mechanisms, that is well worth digging for on any project.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 03, 2018, 02:11:29 PM
Hello Chris

I love your attention to detail and the painstaking research that is behind it. You not only build a better model but you capture and record part of the history of a bygone age.

Mike
Thanks Mike! I am amassing a lot of notes that hopefully will make it to a article/book about the Marion 91 someday, there is very little currently published about them except for photo collections of them at work. I guess at the time they were just everyday machines not worth documenting, and when obsolete they were forgotten.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: propforward on October 03, 2018, 06:03:17 PM
This is an absolutely fascinating build, and great fun as a spectator. Thanks for taking us along!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 03, 2018, 09:16:03 PM
Thanks Stuart!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 04, 2018, 12:20:43 AM
Not much time in the shop today, lots of other stuff going on, but I did get the recesses cut in the one gear, which forms one side wall of the winding drum for the slew chain. Started with normal turning tool to get the recess started towards the hub, angling in on a few cuts, then put on the boring bar and took the recess out to the rim. Same both sides.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mhffZ6Vn/IMG_3578.jpg)
Also milled off the wider part near the hub on these last three, leftover material from the blank. On the smaller ones this was done on the lathe as the blanks were prepped, but these three are too large to hold in the chuck, and this center section is left over from holding the blank on the arbor.
(https://i.postimg.cc/SQXns2DL/IMG_3579.jpg)
Thats all I had time for today, partly since I kept being startled when walking into the room and seeing this:
(https://i.postimg.cc/y6wkS1bM/IMG_3580.jpg)
AHHHHHHHH!!!!! Where'd the model go?!?!?!?!?   :o :o :o :o
Oh, yeah, packed up for the trip....
Whew.... :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on October 04, 2018, 01:05:41 AM
As always Dog top work and nice looking gears...... :praise2:


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on October 04, 2018, 04:56:31 AM
Hi Chris,
Looking good!
Think I got my head around the patent drawing........ them old guys were cleaver!
Just got back from our road trip, by the look of the foot prints in the snow the elves have been to suss out the job, & left! Ah well, may be next time!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 04, 2018, 06:12:55 PM
Hi Chris,
Looking good!
Think I got my head around the patent drawing........ them old guys were cleaver!
Just got back from our road trip, by the look of the foot prints in the snow the elves have been to suss out the job, & left! Ah well, may be next time!

Cheers Kerrin
Gotta train my elves better, they shouldn't have left any trace that they were there seeing what tools you left out for them.... At least this time they didn't build the tiny snowmen in the front yard...
 :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 04, 2018, 06:13:51 PM
One more gear with spokes cut, one last one to go! Here is a pic of the collection so far, the big one at the top is the last one to get spokes cut in....
(https://i.postimg.cc/NFvSKzm3/IMG_3581.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Vixen on October 04, 2018, 07:16:05 PM
Some impressive gears there, Chris.

How big is the mountain of chips?

Mike
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: JC54 on October 04, 2018, 07:53:08 PM
Fantastic job Chris, thank you for sharing it and explaining so clearly how jobs done. It really helps us learners.  :NotWorthy: :NotWorthy: :NotWorthy: :old:  JC.. Sorry not keen on popcorn but a pint of brown ale   :LickLips: :DrinkPint:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 04, 2018, 08:41:45 PM
Some impressive gears there, Chris.

How big is the mountain of chips?

Mike


3-1/2 shop elves tall...   :Lol:


I emptied out the shop vac again the other day, fair bit of weight in it.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 04, 2018, 08:42:24 PM
Fantastic job Chris, thank you for sharing it and explaining so clearly how jobs done. It really helps us learners.  :NotWorthy: :NotWorthy: :NotWorthy: :old:  JC.. Sorry not keen on popcorn but a pint of brown ale   :LickLips: :DrinkPint:


Mmmmmmm, brown ale, great stuff!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on October 05, 2018, 03:10:27 AM
Lots of great looking parts Chris.  Can't wat to see the assembly when they all come together.    :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 05, 2018, 11:10:41 PM
Lots of great looking parts Chris.  Can't wat to see the assembly when they all come together.    :ThumbsUp:
Thanks Craig,  the slew portion of the train will probably be assembled later this week, then comes the more complicated bits in the hoist and travel trains, which will be much more interesting looking. Hard to believe this project is entering its second year, great that every part going on now really changes the appearance of the whole thing.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gbritnell on October 05, 2018, 11:47:56 PM
Wow, that's quite a gear train Chris! I don't know what it is about gears but I really enjoy making them, all types.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 05, 2018, 11:52:34 PM
Wow, that's quite a gear train Chris! I don't know what it is about gears but I really enjoy making them, all types.
gbritnell
Hi George,


I have done enough gears to really like making the normal ones, just enough bevel ones to know how but still be worried about the sequences!  Still need to try my hand at a curved spoke one, or a curved spoke flywheel. Someday I would love to design and build a puzzle box with all the gears and moving bits like you see in movies, like the gnomes  safe door in Harry Potter. Imagine a steam powered one...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 07, 2018, 10:46:17 PM
Hi all,


No progress on the Marion model the last couple of days, been showing it and the Lombard model up at the logging museum in Maine, while spending most of both days at the wheel of the real one!  I also got the opportunity to take the throttle and learn how to operate the controls, which was a real treat, did that several times both days.


I won't be able to get my pics and videos up till tomorrow, but in the meantime here are a couple of videos and a link to a photo album that Herb Crosby put up, he is one of the directors at the museum, and oversaw the students from the college that helped with the last couple of years of the restoration work. Great group at the museum, mostly volunteers, huge turnout again this year (they need more parking badly). Amazing weekend, will put up my pics tomorrow.


Chris
 :cheers:


Video of the event as a whole, including the Lombards running

https://youtu.be/Aq9rM93z9a0

Photo album:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Yv8pWo83EDNtdpJY7


Me explaining the Marion to some visitors:
https://youtu.be/ZyTnJlajMFs

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on October 07, 2018, 11:14:28 PM
Hello Chris,

Thanks for sharing these links, but looking forward to your photos.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Johnmcc69 on October 08, 2018, 04:38:43 PM
Just awesome Chris! Looks like great weather & really good time! Hats off to the volunteers & everyone involved in putting on the event & just keeping this part of history alive.

 John
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: JC54 on October 08, 2018, 07:27:30 PM
Just watched videos Chris really gives a good idea of scale and achievement. I would love to see both models live over here in UK. JC  :old: :DrinkPint:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 08, 2018, 09:16:50 PM
Thanks guys back home this afternoon and will be putting up my pics tonight!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 09, 2018, 01:15:43 AM
Okay, I have the photos uploaded from the camera, there are a lot, and too tired to sort out a few choice ones, so I put them up on Google Photos for you to browse if interested:
 
 Kennebunkport beach pics (stopped there for lunch and a walk on the beach on the way up)
 https://photos.app.goo.gl/ucn5F8Sv6XHy4Us96 (https://photos.app.goo.gl/ucn5F8Sv6XHy4Us96)
 
 General museum pics:
 https://photos.app.goo.gl/17pJJD6BGpnyYLao9 (https://photos.app.goo.gl/17pJJD6BGpnyYLao9)
 
 Detail pics of the Lombard that I took for the Live Steam article, the editor wanted some more for general views of the subsystems:
 https://photos.app.goo.gl/3gjZCkmZge9whrreA (https://photos.app.goo.gl/3gjZCkmZge9whrreA)
 
 Movies have not been uploaded yet, maybe tomorrow... Running out of steam for the evening...
 
 Chris
(https://i.postimg.cc/1R71ZJbR/At_controls_of_the_Lombard.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dave Otto on October 09, 2018, 01:16:25 AM
Hey Chris

You look pretty good up there in the drivers seat.

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 09, 2018, 01:19:58 AM
Hey Chris

You look pretty good up there in the drivers seat.

Dave
Thanks - quite an experience! I was surprised how little throttle movement it took, but it makes sense that without any load behind it that it would not take much, but still 90 HP moves 20 tons pretty easily. The Stephenson linkage was only forward one notch, so a pretty early cutoff too. It took a few hours to get steam up Saturday from a cold start, but Sunday it went pretty quick since the boiler and the water were still warm from the day before.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 09, 2018, 04:10:31 PM
And as promised, some videos from the weekend, some of other machines, then a bunch of the Lombard
 Sawmill:
 [youtube1]https://youtu.be/rrE6c8NYwBw[/youtube1]
 
 Sawmill gears:
 [youtube1]https://youtu.be/qtGbZ3G02sc[/youtube1]
 
 Waterwheel:
 [youtube1]https://youtu.be/QdXglElkqYA[/youtube1]
 
 Shingle Mill - looks like a fun one for a model!
 [youtube1]https://youtu.be/OmPWKxuJgY8[/youtube1]
 
 Log Splitter - made from a hit and miss engine mounted to a larger engine frame with the splitter piston:
 [youtube1]https://youtu.be/xnCa2AtmGfk[/youtube1]
 
 Cletrac tractor in action:
 [youtube1]https://youtu.be/ncmIxBZD9kk[/youtube1]
 
 Two Man Chainsaw:
 [youtube1]https://youtu.be/gnosCSX7Jm0[/youtube1]
 
 Lombard Coming Out Of The Barn:
 [youtube1]https://youtu.be/l7zg79JWGIk[/youtube1]
 
 Lombard Setting Off:
 [youtube1]https://youtu.be/61Cue1nd6tU[/youtube1]
 
 Lombard Setting Off 2:
 [youtube1]https://youtu.be/He6gPveqKLc[/youtube1]
 
 Lombard Coming Around The Bend:
 [youtube1]https://youtu.be/LSd9A4J2ihM[/youtube1]
 
 Lombard Backing In:
 [youtube1]https://youtu.be/4PJSmATR3Ow[/youtube1]
 
 Lombard Going Into Barn:
 [youtube1]https://youtu.be/JUY5pzthd9U[/youtube1]
 
 Lombard Track In Motion:
 [youtube1]https://youtu.be/lHZSoK6PHDU[/youtube1]
 
So, as soon as I finish unpacking and getting models put back in their places, will get going on Marion gears again!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on October 09, 2018, 04:29:15 PM
Quote
So, as soon as I finish unpacking and getting models put back in their places, will get going on Marion gears again!

I should think so too! Looks like you've been having way too much fun lately  :cartwheel:  not that I'm envious, but that museum looks like a fascinating place. What a great way to spend a weekend.

Still following your progress on the Marion with increasing wonder and respect  :cheers:

Mike.

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on October 09, 2018, 06:10:16 PM
Hi Chris,
 What a great weekend adventure! Great photos & video to boot!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on October 09, 2018, 06:50:03 PM
Wow Chris,

Too much for my brain to handle at one sitting, the old wood bridge ( guessing it is a replica of an original ) is a work of art.

You need to buy a pair of overalls if you are going to operate that ole-machine and a flannel shirt.....

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 09, 2018, 06:58:38 PM
Wow Chris,

Too much for my brain to handle at one sitting, the old wood bridge ( guessing it is a replica of an original ) is a work of art.

You need to buy a pair of overalls if you are going to operate that ole-machine and a flannel shirt.....

Have a great day,
Thomas
Covered bridges like that were common in New England at one time, kept the water off the beams so they lasted lots longer. This particular one is built on top of a WWII surplus pirtable bridging unit, but you can't tell without going underneath it.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 09, 2018, 09:42:21 PM
Okay, back on the Marion build!
The first few pictures below were from just before the trip but not posted.
Started out cutting the spokes in the last and largest gear as with the other gears, used the angles and distances from the 3D plans to drill the corner holes in each of the spoke openings, the outer holes are a larger diameter than the inner ones.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wBM6G06N/IMG_3582.jpg)
Then milled the outer arc, starting in from the finished dimension a bit and going back with some light cuts to take it out tangent to the drilled holes with a smooth finish.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Gtwd9RvP/IMG_3583.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/wBr68LvG/IMG_3584.jpg)
Then came down the first inside edge of each spoke, again first in a bit then finishing with lighter cuts out tangent to the holes and a smooth finish. Repeated on the second inside edge, which freed up the central pie pieces, which will be good for something later on I am sure. The first cuts were done in a series of shallow passes, since this stock is nearly 1/2" thick.

(https://i.postimg.cc/ydS7Vx3Y/IMG_3587.jpg)
Then came back and milled away the first side of each spoke to thin them down:
(https://i.postimg.cc/HWXTRJC6/IMG_3588.jpg)
and flipped the part over to do the same on the other side:
(https://i.postimg.cc/T1VGDscz/IMG_3589.jpg)
And here is the whole family of gears for the slew, hoist, and travel gear trains, including the two small ones at the bottom which will be used on the crowd engine crankshaft to drive the big gears out on the main boom.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hPnKBSDc/IMG_3591.jpg)
Now THAT deserves some cookies!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on October 09, 2018, 09:56:14 PM
Dog that is cooler then sitting on a block of ice. Some jammed up gear cutting and they all look great. Nice work Chris ........ :praise2:


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on October 09, 2018, 11:25:16 PM
Well, it's clear to me that Chris is the guy to go to when I need gears... :naughty:

Those are beautiful!!

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 10, 2018, 04:15:50 PM
Well, it's clear to me that Chris is the guy to go to when I need gears... :naughty:

Those are beautiful!!

Pete
Great, now the shop elves are making up a catalog for gear making services... Some sample art for their catalog! 

(https://i.postimg.cc/HLws6P0z/IMG_3592.jpg)
 :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 10, 2018, 04:17:51 PM
This morning I started making up the axles for the slew gear train, here are the two axles assembled with the gears, loctite retaining compound is on and setting up...
(https://i.postimg.cc/25RSFfW3/IMG_3593.jpg)
Before I put the winding drum on for good, I need to put on some U-shaped retainers for the ends of the slew chains.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 11, 2018, 07:14:25 PM
Today I got a start on the bearing holes/caps for the slew gear train - with the two sides of the base are still bolted together and aligned, drilled and tapped the holes to hold the caps on. The caps are just rough cut to length, after drilling the shaft/bearing holes, the caps will be milled to final shape. Doing all of the holes in one assembly like this should ensure everything lines up. I hope.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BQ0jb6Pt/IMG-3596.jpg)
The lower left cap holds the intermediate shaft, the gears on that engage in the gear on the engine crankshaft, and to the final gear. The upper/right cap holds the final gear and winding drum. The lower right cap will hold the crankshaft for the hoist engine - it will have a gear that engages the hoist gear train that sits next to this one.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on October 11, 2018, 08:01:00 PM
Great, now the shop elves are making up a catalog for gear making services... Some sample art for their catalog! 

(https://i.postimg.cc/HLws6P0z/IMG_3592.jpg)
 :Lol:

Very artfully done!  Look like a nice stack of Onion Rings from Red Robin or something :)

That's a lot of gears Chris!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on October 11, 2018, 09:10:02 PM
Looks like a stack of gold :-X

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: J.L. on October 11, 2018, 10:17:31 PM
Chris,

It is almost becoming painful to watch our work. You certainly have a golden touch with metal.

I do hope that your models are destined for museum sites where they will be fully appreciated long into the future.

.John
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 11, 2018, 10:35:31 PM
Thanks guys!
This afternoon saw some more work on the slew gear side plates - drilled the holes for the bearings:
(https://i.postimg.cc/50PVwfxc/IMG-3597.jpg)
Ready for the bearing inserts - making them out of some 3/8" bearing bronze rod.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mgMB0xSM/IMG-3598.jpg)
After turning/drilling the bronze for the bearing inserts, seperating the plates, and assembling everything, here is the slew gear train so far - pics taken from angles around the assembly. I did have to mill a recess in the bottom plate to get it to clear the first large gear. Then again to put the recess on the proper side!   :embarassed:
(https://i.postimg.cc/CKgS0vv2/IMG-3599.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/k5v9gxzg/IMG-3600.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/0Q5vMz1d/IMG-3601.jpg)
Next up is to shape the upper surfaces of the bearing caps down, and to make the U-shaped holders for the ends of the slew chains inside the winding drum. After that I can locate and drill the mounting holes to hold the assembly down to the main frame rails.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on October 12, 2018, 04:05:21 AM
Dog that is just too cool but you know I have to ask. Do you ever sleep? You just keep spitting out work like there is no tomorrow. Not that it isn’t quality work mind you but man give them poor elves a rest son. You just can’t work time like slaves on chocolate cookies...... :lolb: really Chris some great craftsmanship dog........and you know .......I........like......../. :Love:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 12, 2018, 03:24:37 PM
Dog that is just too cool but you know I have to ask. Do you ever sleep? You just keep spitting out work like there is no tomorrow. Not that it isn’t quality work mind you but man give them poor elves a rest son. You just can’t work time like slaves on chocolate cookies...... :lolb: really Chris some great craftsmanship dog........and you know .......I........like......../. :Love:


 :drinking-41:
Don
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ....ZZZZZ...zzz.... huh? what...

Oh yes, plenty of sleep!

 :)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 12, 2018, 08:33:35 PM
Between afternoon naps, I've gotten a start on milling down the bearing caps for the slew gear train. With a tall parallel in place to set the hieght the same for each one, started out milling back the ends to leave the bolt flanges on either side:
(https://i.postimg.cc/VNSb9cZ0/IMG-3602.jpg)
Then used the old rod-in-the-center-hole trick to shape off the tops - with the part held down onto a piece of thin rod stock (shank of a drill works too) and the vise tightened down, a pass is made with the mill to cut the top of the arc. Then loosen the vise, turn the part a bit, tighten, and repeat the cut. It only takes 4 or 5 cuts on each side to form the arc, with the rod ensuring that the part is kept at the right height. It is important to push down on the part when tightening, and to make sure no chips get under the rod, but this is quicker than setting up the rotary table, and it gets right into the flange inner corner. Once the height is set on the first cut on the first part, leave the headstock height locked for the rest of the parts.
Here is one side done:
(https://i.postimg.cc/PqBv2F03/IMG-3603.jpg)
and the other side in process, after a couple of cuts:
(https://i.postimg.cc/1XSnZVmD/IMG-3604.jpg)
Here is a finished cap alongside one ready to mill:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y9YGVzHp/IMG-3605.jpg)
Once all the caps are milled, they will be assembled with some studs and nuts onto the frames. Some of the studs will have to be longer since the sheet metal gear guards are held in place on them.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on October 12, 2018, 08:39:44 PM
Then used the old rod-in-the-center-hole trick to shape off the tops - with the part held down onto a piece of thin rod stock (shank of a drill works too) and the vise tightened down, a pass is made with the mill to cut the top of the arc. Then loosen the vise, turn the part a bit, tighten, and repeat the cut. It only takes 4 or 5 cuts on each side to form the arc, with the rod ensuring that the part is kept at the right height.

Hello Chris,

Not only watching your build is interesting, I am always learning something new.   :noidea:

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on October 12, 2018, 08:46:10 PM
Well while you are sleeping the elves just get on with it!

Very nice stack of gears, the slew works is rather nice too!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 12, 2018, 10:57:00 PM
One more bit of work for the day - got the rest of the bearing caps shaped down, then was about to cut some threaded rod for the mounting studs for the caps when I thought of an easier way - just run in the socket head screws again with a nut in place, which allows use of the hex wrench to run them in without chance of bunging up the threads:
(https://i.postimg.cc/rphVyh1V/IMG-3606.jpg)
tighten the nuts down, and then just trim off the socket head with a abrasive wheel in a rotary tool:
(https://i.postimg.cc/rpyyk6tZ/IMG-3607.jpg)
Presto, installed studs.

Here is the slew gear assembly so far, set where it will be on the main floor:
(https://i.postimg.cc/V6dYJjgj/IMG-3608.jpg)
Still to be added are the sheet metal gear guards and the bolts to mount the assembly to the frame. On the real machine, there are bolts out the bottoms of the side plates that go through the I-beams underneath. To allow for a little adjustment ability, I think for the model I will modify this slightly, and use a set of L-clamps on either side that grip the flange on the I-beams against the cross plate of the gear base. It will be easier to install in the first place, and also allow slight movement room for installation to ensure the small gear on the lower shaft meshes well with the hoist gear train, which is on a seperate base from this one. On the real machine they may well have made the mount holes in the frames slightly large to allow the same thing, cannot tell without dismantling it which is of course impossible for me to do.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 13, 2018, 10:25:32 PM
This afternoon I made up the L-clamps to hold the slew gear train onto the main frame. They are simple bits of square stock, milled on one side and drilled through for a screw into the bottom of the slew base. Slipped over the top flanges of the I-beams and floor plates then tightened down, they hold the gear train in place quite securely.
(https://i.postimg.cc/LsQhkhjR/IMG-3616.jpg)
I also bent up some steel rod into U-shapes, drilled matching holes in the winding drum side and the gear wall, and loctited them in place. Since the drum side wall is fairly thin, that one was also peaned over on the outside to keep it from coming back through if the loctite fails. Here is a shot of everything in place, including some lengths of the chain that will go up to the turntable.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4dKyWZ1c/IMG-3618.jpg)
Note that the two chains are wound the opposite way around the drum - this way, as the drum turns the chain will be fed out on one side and taken in on the other side an equal amount (there is only one layer of chain on the drum). Since the other ends of the chains will be attached to the base of the main boom, that will let it spin the turntable up to 90 degrees without the chains slackening off.


The next steps will be to make the guards for the gears, and then I will start on the guide wheels up at the turntable end. Those wheels guide the slew chains up to the center of the back of the turntable. Here is a picture of the wheels on the real machine. Note that one is tipped up, that is to guide the chain towards the top of the winding drum, the level one is aimed at the bottom of the drum.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fbn8zTVz/IMG-1340.jpg)
Once those guides are made and installed, I can attach the front ends of the chain to the boom, and make a video showing the slew chain in action.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on October 13, 2018, 11:59:51 PM
Hi Chris ,  :popcorn: :popcorn: lots of good work going on here  !  Will the crane have a name  ?? you could call it /her/she.. Alacrity !! due to the rapid gestation process !!

Willy
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on October 14, 2018, 12:15:19 AM
Hi Chris ,  :popcorn: :popcorn: lots of good work going on here  !  Will the crane have a name  ?? you could call it /her/she.. Alacrity !! due to the rapid gestation process !!

Willy

She has a name:  Miss Marion.

I think.  :paranoia:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 14, 2018, 12:25:44 AM
Actually the historical society is using the name Maid (Made?) Marion Project for the stabilization and restoration work on the shovel. Its a play on words at a couple of levels, including the old children's story of Mike Mulligan and his steam shovel Mary Ann.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 14, 2018, 04:51:02 PM
Bit of fiddly work today, cut some strips of aluminum sheet (same as used on the floor plates) to make the gear guards for the slew train. These were bent by hand, combination of over the gears and pliers. They are rivitted to the support brackets, narrower strips, and bolted onto the bearing cap studs.
(https://i.postimg.cc/N0zH3nTv/IMG-3620.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/tgT6mbsz/IMG-3621.jpg)
An overall shot showing where the slew train sits on the floor. The elves were partying last night, they are passed out at the right side...  ;) I think they may have gotten hold of Zee's recipe for Stinking Hoppies! 

(https://i.postimg.cc/B6PK4CcL/IMG-3622.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 14, 2018, 06:56:22 PM
Got a start on the chain guide wheels. Closest size I have is in brass, some leftovers from the gears, so am going to make them out of that. First step was to turn in the inside of the rim, like where the tire would go on a car rim. After parting off, they will be mounted on an arbor to mill in the spoke area. The turning was done with a parting tool, then the surface was filed smooth with a half-round file.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Mpwny2kd/IMG-3623.jpg)

First one turned and parted off, here is where it will go on the model, holding the chain around the back side of the turntable. One more to turn, then can start milling....

(https://i.postimg.cc/T3cp07fG/IMG-3624.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 15, 2018, 04:53:41 PM
Continuing on with the slew chain guide wheels - mounted the wheels on an arbor on the rotary table, and milled out the recess in each of the sides:
(https://i.postimg.cc/qB26T09L/IMG-3625.jpg)
The inside edge of the wheel got a pass with a small corner rounding mill. This was done on both sides of each wheel.

(https://i.postimg.cc/fyQ39g0m/IMG-3626.jpg)
Then used a 1/8" end mill to drill the holes at the corners of the spokes (these spokes are straight sided, and will be notched in at the tops).
(https://i.postimg.cc/Kj71rrnV/IMG-3628.jpg)
and like the gears, cut the arc at the ends of the openings then the straight sections down the sides:
(https://i.postimg.cc/HsHcWRmC/IMG-3629.jpg)
Last step on this side was to use a 1/8" ball end mill to outline the edges of the spokes to form a narrower spoke edge. This is pretty close to the shape on the real wheels, they have squared off inside corners on the ends of the narrow parts of the spokes. Not exactly the same, but it gives the same general appearance.

(https://i.postimg.cc/4N5KYP4H/IMG-3630.jpg)
Next the wheel will be turned over, and the last two steps repeated on the other side.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: fumopuc on October 15, 2018, 07:46:06 PM
Hi Chris, impressive.
Poor elves.
Are you not worried about some unexpected contact between  them and one of your famous unions ?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 15, 2018, 07:49:49 PM
Hi Chris, impressive.
Poor elves.
Are you not worried about some unexpected contact between  them and one of your famous unions ?
Shhhh - they still think unions are just something to join pipes with!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 15, 2018, 07:51:43 PM
Between some on and off work on the latest submarine project (a WW-II Delphin), got the other guide wheel done.
(https://i.postimg.cc/65PJwHyf/IMG-3631.jpg)
Next will be the support stands for the guides....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on October 16, 2018, 12:25:33 AM
Now all you have to do is put some coonass style tires on them and they are ready to go..... make swamp buggy with them :lolb: looking good dog some more excellent work..... :praise2:


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 16, 2018, 12:32:18 AM
Now all you have to do is put some coonass style tires on them and they are ready to go..... make swamp buggy with them :lolb: looking good dog some more excellent work..... :praise2:


 :cheers:
Don
They do look like old wood car tire rims, don't they?  Have to make sure the elves don't steal them for thier hot rod!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ShopShoe on October 16, 2018, 01:33:52 PM
Just Beautiful Shiny Things.

Gotta say again your attention to detail and build speed is incredible.

Several Dozen more of those wheels and your Christmas tree decorations are all ready in time for the season.  :Jester: :ThumbsUp:

--ShopShoe
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on October 16, 2018, 05:41:20 PM

[/quote]
Have to make sure the elves don't steal them for thier hot rod!
[/quote]

I thought this WAS the elves hot rod.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 16, 2018, 07:16:49 PM

Have to make sure the elves don't steal them for thier hot rod!


I thought this WAS the elves hot rod.

Don

They have sliegh with a small block, 600 riendeer power...   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on October 16, 2018, 07:35:24 PM
Yeah, right.  Next you're gonna tell me they have their own submarine too.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 16, 2018, 08:19:40 PM
Yeah, right.  Next you're gonna tell me they have their own submarine too.

Don
Well, they let me borrow one from the fleet once in a while...   :Jester:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 16, 2018, 10:20:58 PM
Not much to show today, figured out how I am going to make the bases for the guide wheels and milled down the stock to width and put the recess in the undersides of the pieces.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FRmhHR85/IMG-3632.jpg)
The two bases are different widths, so a stack of 1/2" parts and a stack of 5/8" parts. The thin bars at the bottom will be the bases that bolt to the floors, the long pieces above that are the tops, and the short pieces above those will be the angled sides. I will mill the ends of the sides to length/angle, and make up a set of temporary braces for silver soldering all the parts together.
Here is a screencap from the 3D model to show where all this is going:
(https://i.postimg.cc/vTJqG125/Guide-Wheels.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: bouch on October 16, 2018, 11:26:51 PM
Actually the historical society is using the name Maid (Made?) Marion Project for the stabilization and restoration work on the shovel. Its a play on words at a couple of levels, including the old children's story of Mike Mulligan and his steam shovel Mary Ann.

As a total aside, when you drive from NY to ME, you probably drive up route 495 in Massachusetts.  You pass just a few miles away from West Newbury, MA, where "Mike Mulligan" was written.  If you look at the book, you'll see " *Acknowledgments to Dickie Birkenbush. " on the page where a little boy suggests Mary Anne becomes the furnace.  Well, that's because 12 year old Dickie Berkenbush suggested to the author how to solve the problem because she had written Mary Anne into the cellar and couldn't figure out how to get her out.  (yes, its spelled wrong in the book)  That little boy was on West Newbury's fire department for almost 40 years, and became fire chief, police chief, and selectman of the town...  (and, and an even further aside, West Newbury is also where Wrestling superstar John Cena grew up)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 17, 2018, 01:39:00 AM
Actually the historical society is using the name Maid (Made?) Marion Project for the stabilization and restoration work on the shovel. Its a play on words at a couple of levels, including the old children's story of Mike Mulligan and his steam shovel Mary Ann.

As a total aside, when you drive from NY to ME, you probably drive up route 495 in Massachusetts.  You pass just a few miles away from West Newbury, MA, where "Mike Mulligan" was written.  If you look at the book, you'll see " *Acknowledgments to Dickie Birkenbush. " on the page where a little boy suggests Mary Anne becomes the furnace.  Well, that's because 12 year old Dickie Berkenbush suggested to the author how to solve the problem because she had written Mary Anne into the cellar and couldn't figure out how to get her out.  (yes, its spelled wrong in the book)  That little boy was on West Newbury's fire department for almost 40 years, and became fire chief, police chief, and selectman of the town...  (and, and an even further aside, West Newbury is also where Wrestling superstar John Cena grew up)
Great info!
Yup - I go up the turnpike then take 495 around (going through Worcester like the GPS keeps recommending is totally out, traffic is terrible).

Thanks for the background, I'll pass that along to the folks at the historical society, they will love it!
No more done on the model later this afternoon, been sidetracked making a replacement for an old weathervane at my mothers house that has taken some rot damage, here it is roughed in. Its carved out of a block made from a 4x4 from her old redwood deck, glued up to get the height. This is a couple hours with the flex-shaft and a large roughing bur. The dark lines are the glue joints, the surface of the 4x4 had been stained. A bit more sanding, and ready for some finish work.

(https://i.postimg.cc/4yRsn1d3/New-Whale-Weathervane-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Chester on October 17, 2018, 05:23:17 AM
Beautiful work with the brown stuff, I love the way the knot works as an eye. Your repertoire of talent amazes me to no end
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 17, 2018, 03:12:04 PM
Beautiful work with the brown stuff, I love the way the knot works as an eye. Your repertoire of talent amazes me to no end
Thanks Chester - that is not a knot, that is the eye carved in to the wood. This is based on an old weathervane that is a bit stylized, I am copying its pattern.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 18, 2018, 04:55:03 PM
Yesterday I got a coat of paint on the gears and guide wheels - the interior machinery is going to be all a steel color, which is how the real machine is (frame/floors/booms are black).
(https://i.postimg.cc/hjHM449q/IMG-3634.jpg)
And got a start on making up the fixture blocks to hold the guide wheel bracket for silver soldering. Couple of blocks, notched in the corners to avoid soldering the fixture to the parts. They also came in handy for setting the angle on the parts to mill the ends to fit each other. Here, the angled end is at rough cut length:

(https://i.postimg.cc/bYt3CbhY/IMG-3638.jpg)
Here is the end cut down and notched:
(https://i.postimg.cc/MHV5nkDf/IMG-3641.jpg)
And the guide wheel bracket ready for silver soldering. The fixture has some NicroBraze on the mating surfaces to keep any rouge solder from sticking them to the parts. The same fixtures will be used for soldering up the smaller bracket, which holds a set of guide blocks.
(https://i.postimg.cc/TYvQZwdV/IMG-3642.jpg)
After soldering, the ends of the top will be milled to match the angles, and the bottom rail will have the center cut out leaving just the 'feet' at the ends.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: JC54 on October 18, 2018, 08:13:06 PM
Chris, you do realize with painting all those gears that you are going to be in trouble with Don. I bet he was waiting to see if you polished them.  :Jester:   :NotWorthy: :praise2: to both Chris and Don. :old:  :DrinkPint:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 18, 2018, 09:26:27 PM
Chris, you do realize with painting all those gears that you are going to be in trouble with Don. I bet he was waiting to see if you polished them.  :Jester:   :NotWorthy: :praise2: to both Chris and Don. :old: :DrinkPint:
Oh well!  I guess if he wants to travel up here to polish them I can strip the paint....   ::)
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 18, 2018, 09:34:34 PM
Got both of the guide wheel supports silver soldered up, pickled, and brushed clean this afternoon. The funny shaped bits at the left side are the soldering jigs.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Cxcy4tyf/IMG-3645.jpg)
Then trimmed the feet to length and trimmed off the top ends and the bottom center. Now they are ready for some JBWeld to fill the temporary holes from the soldering jig, and drilling the mount holes for the feet-to-floor screws and the axles for the wheels...
(https://i.postimg.cc/9f06gpVg/IMG-3646.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on October 18, 2018, 10:18:43 PM
That's some mighty nice fabrication work there, Chris!

So, what are you using for your 'steel colored' paint?  It looks nice. But now that I've got paint on the brain, I guess I need to know what you're using  :embarassed:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 18, 2018, 10:29:29 PM
That's some mighty nice fabrication work there, Chris!

So, what are you using for your 'steel colored' paint?  It looks nice. But now that I've got paint on the brain, I guess I need to know what you're using  :embarassed:

Kim
Hi Kim,


I have recently started using DupliColor ceramic engine spray paint, goes on nice and thin, can take high heat but needs no baking. This is thier Cast Aluminum color, is a good match for the 303 stainless color. I have used their black for the frame and floors, also on the rc boats, holds up well.  It needs a couple thin coats, can be recoated in ten minutes. Nice stuff.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on October 18, 2018, 11:31:16 PM
Well Dog you done gone and did it painting them brass gears no more nice guy anymore. You done a bad thing and against my grain so I am going to seal theme elves from you and retrain them the Don way...... :lolb: Dog they look great polished or painted so you know .....I.........like......   :Love:

 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 18, 2018, 11:36:56 PM
Well Dog you done gone and did it painting them brass gears no more nice guy anymore. You done a bad thing and against my grain so I am going to seal theme elves from you and retrain them the Don way...... :lolb: Dog they look great polished or painted so you know .....I.........like......   :Love:

 :drinking-41:
Don


 :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on October 19, 2018, 01:56:53 PM
Chris, those guide wheels painted up look just like full size freshly sandblasted iron castings on a foundry floor. Great work (as usual!)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 19, 2018, 04:30:25 PM
Today I got the slew chain brackets bolted to the floor, and was able to hook things up for a test. Turns out that I had to unhook the chains, and line up all the links without any twists, or it wanted to walk off the turntable edge. Makes sense, cuts down on wear as well. 

Here are a couple of photos, then a video of it in action:
(https://i.postimg.cc/G3x99QNN/IMG-3655.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/VkVJmkTk/IMG-3656.jpg)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-tQ4-2Jp9s
Here is how the forward ends of the chain go around the end of the boom, and get drawn in by a pair of hooks. The hooks go through the boom, and a nut on the other side (the hardware kind, not me... well, me too) can tighten them up to tension the chain.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cHQCRMJv/IMG-3657.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on October 19, 2018, 05:26:55 PM
Whoa! Looks like a potential Elf 'n Safety issue there, even if he is wearing a hard hat ...  :slap:

We all ran out of superlatives long ago but some great work on those gears, and the control levers and, well, everything  :cheers:

Mike.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on October 19, 2018, 05:28:21 PM
Dog that is so cool I get chills watching it in action! Not bad work for not being a coonass like me.  :lolb:
Really Chris some awesome work!    :praise2:


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 19, 2018, 05:55:16 PM
Thanks guys!


That elf is standing where the real boom operator would have, who would have had a normal cap or hat on, no hard hat!  Even the main operator stands inches from the spinning guide wheel, no guards there. It was definitely pre OSHA!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on October 19, 2018, 06:00:57 PM
Hello Chris,

The new sprockets/chain wheel really look good and the gear guards also.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 19, 2018, 06:37:16 PM
Amazing stuff---Love it.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on October 19, 2018, 08:22:11 PM
Just too cool, Chris!

I was wondering about the guy standing there on that gear... but that's the 'official' spot, eh?  Seems like a pretty scary occupation, that!

Great work, Chris!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 19, 2018, 08:41:44 PM
Just too cool, Chris!

I was wondering about the guy standing there on that gear... but that's the 'official' spot, eh?  Seems like a pretty scary occupation, that!

Great work, Chris!
Kim
The figure is standing down on the lower level of the turntable, probably would have really been up on the top of the disc area. Still, the hoist chain is just to one side, rocks and dirt probably bouncing down from the bucket in front, out in the sun/rain/snow, just a lovely spot to work!!  He had to be out there to work the lever for the throttle on the crowd engine, that lever will be on the back side of the guide wheel bracket (mount screws are there now, lever to come later). He also pulled the rope to dump the load from the bucket. The main operator on the wood platform did everything else.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 19, 2018, 08:51:22 PM
And the final bit of work for the slew gear train, made the guide blocks for the rear bracket. These would keep the chain from sagging too low and walking off the guide wheels leading to the turntable. They were milled up from a couple solid offcuts, and the troughs done with a ball end mill. They are screwed to the bracket from underneath.
(https://i.postimg.cc/NfWLC7Jf/IMG-3658.jpg)
A family shot of the slew gears and turntable:
(https://i.postimg.cc/cJWC01Gp/IMG-3660.jpg)
That finishes off the slew gear train (the slew engine comes later), so next step is the hoist gear train! The crankshaft for the hoist engine and the first small gear are already on the front end of the slew gear base. It will drive the largest of the gears, which is used to drive the hoist drum via a steam-operated clutch mechanism, which is one of the really clever bits on this machine. Here is where the large gear will go, you can see the smaller gear on the crankshaft to the left:
(https://i.postimg.cc/DwL09JHQ/IMG-3662.jpg)
The drum will be on the same shaft as that gear, and take the hoist chain that comes back through the front part of the main frames. The lower slew chain in that photo passes just over the top of the hoist drum. So, next up will be to make the axle and bearing blocks for this gear. The other end of the axle, nearest the camera, will hold the first gear leading to the track drive gear train, since the same hoist engine gets used to move the front tracks as well (another clutch down there).


Enough for today, time for some cookies with the elves!!   :cartwheel:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on October 19, 2018, 11:40:54 PM
Chris...your hand powered viewing :hammerbash: or the function of the  boom slew drive is most impressive  :ThumbsUp:

How many turns of chain are on the slew drive drum?

Without going back so many pages, is the original slew drum just a smooth diameter, or does it have some form of longitudinal segmented or thread form to grip the slew chain?

During a digging operation, do the loading's applied against the bucket ...to the boom ....be restrained directly by the tension of pay in/pay out of the hoist chain?

Looking forward to continued watching ...... Derek

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 20, 2018, 12:03:22 AM
Chris...your hand powered viewing :hammerbash: or the function of the  boom slew drive is most impressive :ThumbsDown:

How many turns of chain are on the slew drive drum?

Without going back so many pages, is the original slew drum just a smooth diameter, or does it have some form of longitudinal segmented or thread form to grip the slew chain?

During a digging operation, do the loading's applied against the bucket ...to the boom ....be restrained directly by the tension of pay in/pay out of the hoist chain?

Looking forward to continued watching ...... Derek


Hi Derek,


Without the slew engine being made yet, thats the only way to show its function.   :shrug:




There are two slew chains, counterwound on the drum. The back ends are held with a half loop fixed to the drum walls, then there are three turns around the drum, and the chains run forward to the guide wheels and around the turntable rim to the bottom of the boom, where the attach to long threaded hooks to tension them. The drum is smooth, as is the inside of the guide wheels, no sprockets or notches.


Any side force on the boom is held by the slew chain, all lifting force is held by the hoist chain. The slew drum has no brake, but the hoist drum does have a brake band. The hoist engine has a spot in the throttle valve that will hold position, and another that connects both ends of the pistons to exhaust so they can freewheel. This allows the operator to hold and lower without use of the clutch or brake, they touted this one lever control as a big ease of use feature.


Hope that makes sense?


 :cheers:


Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on October 20, 2018, 02:03:24 AM
Thanks Chris...yes 100% ......

I understood about the chains being counter wound & secured to the slew winch drum side plate etc....but didn't realize the 2 tensioning links in the boom arm could take up all of the slack in the slew motion .......

I think the original slew motion would have been quite clunkly  :hammerbash: as the chain links clicked or snapped over in the change direction during a slewing motion...from the slew engine drum....thru the guide or support wheels then onto the main slew quadrant wheel of the machine  ...that is during a slewing motion and not a reversal of slew

Having said this it would have just been a part of the rather loud smash & groan sound of the machine

Derek

PS...sorry about the previous thumbs down........was a missed key.....I have corrected my error
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 20, 2018, 02:24:21 AM
Hi Derek,  yes, those machines must have been quite loud, makes sense that they later switched to cable drive rather than chain, in those days metallurgy was advancing quickly. I wish there were videos available of the chain machines with sound, only ones I have are silent, just picture. The steam part was not loud, that was something that surprised me when running the Lombard up in Maine, almost all the noise was from the drive chains and tracks. From a fairly short distance it was very quiet, at least till the whistle blew! The gas engined one was very loud just from the engine.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 20, 2018, 10:29:18 PM
Today I got the stock picked out and rough cut for the hoist drum and axle. The axle is out of 1/2" steel rod, turned down at the ends to fit the gears and bearings. The drum section could be made the same diameter as for the gears, which is 7/16", but leaving it full 1/2" diameter means it will keep the nice smooth finish the bar has, which is good since the drum will be able to rotate seperately from the axle when the clutch is disengaged. So, the center hole in the drum will be a slide fit on the 1/2" center of the axle.


I picked some 1-7/8" brass bar for the drum center, for two reasons: I had a short length of that size already, and using brass means I don't need to bush the center hole for bearing bronze like I would if it was steel. Okay, three reasons - the brass will be nicer to work with to get it to the shape of the drum center!


So, started by turning the bar to length, and notched in the ends for the 1/4" plates that will form the outer walls. Those ends were turned to 5/8", the plates will be bored to match. The plates take the total diameter of the drum out to the finished 3", and will also provide the surfaces for the clutch and brake bands to ride on. In this picture, both ends have been notched in, the post on the other end fit within the center hole of the chuck.

(https://i.postimg.cc/dQhkbK3B/IMG-3663.jpg)

Then drilled and bored the center hole for the axle:

(https://i.postimg.cc/66F2w1GN/IMG-3664.jpg)

And used a center-point tool to start roughing in the center section, which will be 1.375" diameter, with .25" radius ends to blend in with the outer plates later.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Bn0jPLgY/IMG-3665.jpg)

Switched tools, and turned the first end down to shape freehand, then used a half round file to smooth out the tool marks.

(https://i.postimg.cc/3JpywCg0/IMG-3666.jpg)

Tomorrow I will turn the part around, grip it by the end post since the finished end is too narrow, and turn the second end of the inside of the drum to match the first. After that, I can start shaping the end plates, which were rough cut out of some 1/4" plate stock.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 21, 2018, 06:21:09 PM
As mentioned yesterday, this morning I turned the drum around and gripped it by the end post to finish turning the drum recess. To avoid any risk of deforming the post when tightening the chuck, I put in a short piece of 1/2" bar at that end. The second end was first roughed in with left to right passes, going shorter the farther it went in:
(https://i.postimg.cc/rmbZJjBG/IMG-3668.jpg)
Interesting to see how much the brass oxidised overnight on the left side, compared to the fresh cuts on the right. If only Don was here to keep it polished up. But, then he would drown me in the swamp when I painted it!
Then made what I call etcha-sketch passes from the rim into the center, turning both handwheels to form the curve in a couple of passes (this could also have been done with a curved form tool, but it would have taken a lot longer to grind one up than to do it this way).
(https://i.postimg.cc/hvdy3xnk/IMG-3669.jpg)
The shape was then gone over with a half-round file while spinning to smooth in the last tool marks, then the whole thing scrubbed with a scouring pad. Here it is with the axle blank back in:
(https://i.postimg.cc/447SdCcW/IMG-3671.jpg)
And a shot of where it will be in the model:
(https://i.postimg.cc/FFMnkPgN/IMG-3672.jpg)
Next step is to make the end plates for the drum. These are 1/4" thick x 3" diameter, and both hold in the wraps of chain and give a wide rim to be the surfaces that the clutch and brake bands ride on. Started with rough cutting them out of a larger piece of 1/4" stock, and drilling the starter hole for the center:
(https://i.postimg.cc/J4jYNbPJ/IMG-3673.jpg)
and widening that out with the boring head to fir the end post on the drum:
(https://i.postimg.cc/T3G7Cp4s/IMG-3674.jpg)
One down, one to go:
(https://i.postimg.cc/t45rf904/IMG-3675.jpg)
Once the second blank is ready, I will mount each on a mandrel to turn the outer rim to size.



Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 21, 2018, 08:06:16 PM
Once both end plate blanks were bored to a nice snug fit on the drum end posts, they were mounted one at a time on an arbor for turning to size. They just fit on the lathe without hitting the ways:
(https://i.postimg.cc/bwnsmw4K/IMG-3676.jpg)
and turned to size:
(https://i.postimg.cc/mrGhJGsh/IMG-3678.jpg)
test fit on the drum:
(https://i.postimg.cc/d0mDKSs6/IMG-3679.jpg)
So far so good - next need to drill for and fit the half-loop on one side plate that takes the end of the hoist chain, then the plates can be mounted permenantly to the drum with some loctite....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Gas_mantle on October 21, 2018, 08:20:12 PM
Looking great Chris, it's taking shape nicely  :)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: JC54 on October 21, 2018, 09:29:25 PM
Excuse me Chris, if being simple but have you recessed drum into end plates or just nice snug fit? trying to see transition from end plates to drum.  :old: :DrinkPint:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 21, 2018, 09:36:51 PM
Excuse me Chris, if being simple but have you recessed drum into end plates or just nice snug fit? trying to see transition from end plates to drum.  :old: :DrinkPint:
I thought about recessing them in, but having the ends of the drum taper out to thin points looks good as is, so the end plates just butt up to the drum. Had to handle the drum carefully since the tips are a bit sharp.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: JC54 on October 21, 2018, 09:53:05 PM
Many thanks Chris you answered what I really wanted to know, I thought those edges looked a bit delicate?     :old: :DrinkPint:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 22, 2018, 10:33:05 PM
Catching up on the recent work - made and installed the half-loop that holds the end of the hoist chain...
(https://i.postimg.cc/PxzV2Cc5/IMG-3682.jpg)
And made up the bearing holders for the hoist drum:
(https://i.postimg.cc/2y0cNPCp/IMG-3684.jpg)
Here they are with the shaping done, ready for the bronze bearings and mounting bolts to the floor. They take a huge horizontal load, so they made the bearing blocks very long to spread the shock load across length of the I-beams.

(https://i.postimg.cc/5y47Gxdq/IMG-3685.jpg)
Next up will be to start shaping the axle...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on October 22, 2018, 11:47:33 PM
Sweet! Nice work.. :ThumbsUp:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on October 23, 2018, 12:26:14 AM
Sweet! Nice work.. :ThumbsUp:

Pete
Yep!  :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on October 23, 2018, 12:50:26 AM
Does the inner drum connect to the end plates at all? Or is it completely free-spinning?  The end plate must connect to the shaft somehow?  Or to something?

Nice work, as always, Chris!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on October 23, 2018, 01:22:16 AM
Hi Chris , i laike all those gears and i have to make one for my next engine ..however to be correct it will have to look like this ?? Im sure you could machine one up quite quickly  but this looks quite difficult to cast  ? !! So fabrication is on the cards....!

willy
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 23, 2018, 01:43:15 AM
Does the inner drum connect to the end plates at all? Or is it completely free-spinning?  The end plate must connect to the shaft somehow?  Or to something?

Nice work, as always, Chris!
Kim
The drum and the end plates are loctited together, on the real machine I think they were one large hollow casting. The drum freewheels on the axle until the clutch engages. That clutch is a steam activated piston that tightens a band around the rim of the drum. The clutch and band are attached to the larger gear next to the drum. The two gears at either side of the drum are fixed to the axle. Lots of parts to go on this assembly! There is also a brake band on the other rim of the drum. The secong gear drives the gear train to the front tracks. This whole section will be under construction for quite a while...


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 23, 2018, 01:46:15 AM
Hi Chris , i laike all those gears and i have to make one for my next engine ..however to be correct it will have to look like this ?? Im sure you could machine one up quite quickly  but this looks quite difficult to cast  ? !! So fabrication is on the cards....!

willy


Thanks Willy, given a mill and rotary table that one is readily done from brass stock, straight spokes and flat sides make it a lot easier. How big will yours need to be? What gear module is it at the model scale?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on October 23, 2018, 01:51:51 AM
One of these days really soon I need to study that patented clutch to really understand how it connects to the rest of the unit. I have the info you sent me last year, and you've posted more info, I just need to sit down and examine the pics/dwgs to put it in my mind.

That 'one stick' direction/throttle valve is still a mystery but I'm sure it will all be cleared up when you build those sections...

 :cheers:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 23, 2018, 02:07:16 AM
One of these days really soon I need to study that patented clutch to really understand how it connects to the rest of the unit. I have the info you sent me last year, and you've posted more info, I just need to sit down and examine the pics/dwgs to put it in my mind.

That 'one stick' direction/throttle valve is still a mystery but I'm sure it will all be cleared up when you build those sections...

 :cheers:

Pete
I'll be putting up a video of how the clutch set works once its made, its a pretty clever setup they invented. I think there is a good description and drawing of the throttle in one of the catalogs, will post that later...


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 23, 2018, 02:26:08 AM
Found this set of descriptions of the main hoist valve in my copy of Marion's catalog number 30 - thier old catalogs are a gold mine of information. This describes how the hoist throttle can be used to hoist, hold, and lower all with one lever, clever stuff. Hope the detail comes through well enough to read. Apologies for the larger size of these images, but scaled down they were illegible.

(https://i.postimg.cc/4N8Q1Dft/IMG-3686.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/vmn7bDWL/IMG-3687.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/GmVPWvsm/IMG-3688.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 23, 2018, 02:34:15 AM
One of these days really soon I need to study that patented clutch to really understand how it connects to the rest of the unit. I have the info you sent me last year, and you've posted more info, I just need to sit down and examine the pics/dwgs to put it in my mind.

That 'one stick' direction/throttle valve is still a mystery but I'm sure it will all be cleared up when you build those sections...

 :cheers:

Pete
The throttle/direction valve that is in the crowd and slew engines are shown starting back in posts 109 through 127 of this thread. Since then I have simplified the model version of the control valve even more, making it another D-valve with triangular end ports, which will give better throttle action. That whole valve setup is pretty complex, definitely will come up with more diagrams and descriptions when I get to the engines later on (wow, its been over a year so far, and no sign of an engine on this build yet!)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on October 23, 2018, 05:13:29 AM
Thanks for the pages, Chris. I'll be reading them completely.

I am really looking forward to your working on the engines and such.

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 23, 2018, 03:29:30 PM
Thanks for the pages, Chris. I'll be reading them completely.

I am really looking forward to your working on the engines and such.

Pete
I am looking forward to that part too, find out if I really interpreted those patents correctly!   :insane:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 23, 2018, 03:36:19 PM
This morning I got the hoist drum axle turned down to shape. The middle was left 1/2", the ends turned down for the gears and bearings. The end with the large gear was drilled on the end for a #6 o-ring, which will be used for the steam feed into the hoist clutch on the large gear. A 1/8" passage beyond the o-ring seat was drilled up to the base of the large gear.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0jvn4WC7/IMG-3690.jpg)
Then a cross hole was drilled to meet the steam passage, this hole will take the steam up to the clutch piston on one of the spokes.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HxX3BDbp/IMG-3693.jpg)
Here are a couple shots of the parts test fit on the main frame. Still more work to do on the large gear to fit the clutch and counterweight, and need to drill the mount holes for the bearing blocks into the I-beams.
(https://i.postimg.cc/nr12f4dg/IMG-3694.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/XNKQ5WVL/IMG-3696.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on October 23, 2018, 03:44:44 PM
That space is really starting to fill up Chris.  You must be almost done, since you're running out of room, right?
Enjoying your build!  :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 23, 2018, 04:06:46 PM
That space is really starting to fill up Chris.  You must be almost done, since you're running out of room, right?
Enjoying your build!  :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
Oh yeah, except for 4 steam engines, 6 more gears, boiler, cab, ...   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on October 24, 2018, 09:57:31 AM
Back from 3 weeks travel in the Middle East to find I need over an hour to bring this thread up to date.  Lots of nice work there as usual.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on October 24, 2018, 03:47:34 PM
Wow Chris, I finally got caught up with your build! I got sidetracked last spring at around page #65. When I got back to it, pictures were missing.  When you were able to get the pictures restored you were up to about page #120. For a while there I'd get a page read and two more pages had been added!  :o Wouldn't let myself jump ahead (that'd be like jumping ahead in reading a good book).

Anyway your Marion looks fantastic!  :praise2: It's been fascinating to see how you've dealt with each obstacle as it arose.

Now working on getting caught up on John's diorama project. Then other builds I'm way behind on. Might even get going on my P & W build one of these days. The weather has been fantastic out here this last spring and summer.........but that's about to come to a screeching halt!  :???:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 24, 2018, 04:01:05 PM
Kvom/Jim, glad to have you guys back, looking forward to seeing more on your builds too.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 24, 2018, 08:29:45 PM
Next step on the hoist gears was to make and fit the counterweight and hinge bars on the large gear. The counterweight is a set of locomotive-style plates on the side opposite the clutch assembly, the pair get through-bolted on the outer end of one of the spokes. To make it, a couple of pieces of 1/8" thick bar were bolted down to the tooling plate on the rotary table, and the arc milled in.
(https://i.postimg.cc/jSxPTjZB/IMG-3700.jpg)
The inside edge has a 170 degree angle to it, that was milled in with the parts held in the mill vise.

The holes for the plates and the clutch cylinder were located and drilled/tapped in the spokes, after triple checking which spokes they go on (really easy to get it backwards when looking at a round part on plans!) .
(https://i.postimg.cc/x16H1SZ8/IMG-3701.jpg)
There is also a set of plates on the side with the clutch cylinder, which hold the short pivots for the ends of the clutch band. On the real machine, there are a pair of large lugs cast into the rim, for the model I switched to a set of bolted on plates. Here are the plates all bolted up, including the mount bolts for the cylinder.

(https://i.postimg.cc/s21WBNFc/IMG-3702.jpg)
The next step is to drill the pivot holes in that narrower plate.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 24, 2018, 10:13:15 PM
Okay, got the holes for the pivot pins drilled in the plate on the large hoist gear. Also, at risk of Don sending a horde of angry crawdad-wielding shop elves after me, I painted the hoist gears and drum grey to match the slew gears rather than keep them the shiny brass. I am going for the real-machine look, so I'll have to risk being able to fight them off with a form and bucket of melted butter!
(https://i.postimg.cc/T3SCkmcT/IMG-3703.jpg)
View from the left side shows the counterweight, pivot-holder plates, and the mount screws for the clutch piston.
(https://i.postimg.cc/VNC4267n/IMG-3704.jpg)
I have not decided for sure, but I think rather than make the clutch I am going to stay in gear-mode and make the holders for the rest of the travel gear train then come back to the clutch. The travel gears take the feed from the smaller gear on the right side of the hoist drum, and take it to a set of shafts mounted underneath the frame, and finish with the drive shafts out to the front tracks. There is a dog clutch halfway out that engages the final couple of gears so the hoist engine can also drive the front tracks to move the machine.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on October 25, 2018, 02:24:15 PM
The hoist works look great Chris. Well done!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 25, 2018, 04:21:52 PM
The hoist works look great Chris. Well done!
Thanks!
Started laying out the stock for the next gear bearing block, alternating that with some other RC submarine work, got another water-tight compartment to make up for our November pool run.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on October 25, 2018, 10:21:00 PM
What do you call the elves that work on the subs?  Unterseesich Elfen?  Or aren't they that organized yet?

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 25, 2018, 11:21:33 PM
What do you call the elves that work on the subs?  Unterseesich Elfen?  Or aren't they that organized yet?

Don
I like that!


Their current build is a larger version of the Delphin sub I have, so maybe this crew are Delphin Elfins!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 26, 2018, 07:26:31 PM
Been busy on other things for a bit, back in the shop again this afternoon to get a start on the bearing blocks for the idler gear near the start of the travel gear train. This gear takes the power from the smaller gear on the end of the hoist drum (its the same size/nbr teeth as that one), and moves it down below the I-beams to connect with the rest of the train. The shaft this one is on will have a dog clutch to engage the tracks for moving the machine.
(https://i.postimg.cc/dt5RX61d/IMG-3708.jpg)
To show where this one will be, here is the render of the gear trains again. This idler gear is the one on the shaft below the hoist drum in the center:
(https://i.postimg.cc/76cq5ZMJ/Gear_Train.jpg)

Next up will be to shape the caps, then put in the mounting bolts that connect to the frame (the bolt holes were drilled in the frame a while back, just need to match up with the spacing on those).
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 27, 2018, 12:17:01 AM
Finished up the bearing blocks by milling the caps to shape and recessing both sides of each one to make it look like the casting, and also make room for the mounting bolts into the I-beams. Its going to be a pain in the elf-hole to get those bolts started, hope I don't have to remove/replace them once in!

(https://i.postimg.cc/hP0CqGVd/IMG-3709.jpg)

And the parts so far test fit. Still need to make the dog clutch bits for the small gear, including some retaining collars and a keyway.

(https://i.postimg.cc/x1T6jSPF/IMG-3711.jpg)

 
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on October 27, 2018, 05:11:35 AM
Hi Chris...

I am a bit lost on the angles of the stub shafts.....we see each stub shaft has two coupling halves....not for misalignment but for intended angularity?

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on October 27, 2018, 07:19:56 AM
Huh? That question lost me. It'll filter through any minute now.  :zap:

 :ThumbsUp:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gbritnell on October 27, 2018, 11:56:57 AM
I would venture to guess that it's no different than the drive shaft in a car with two sets of universal joints.
It allows for initial angularity plus any lateral movement of the driveline.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 27, 2018, 01:29:26 PM
The drive shafts go from the fixed position of the final gear axle end out to the end of the track drive sprocket axle, which can change position. The track assembly has a large center pivot at the end of the support arm from the frame, the one that has the Marion lettering carved in it. So, when going over uneven ground, the track assembly can pitch about that pivot. That changes both the angle and the distance that the drive shaft has to cover, so it has a universal joint at each end. The universal core X shaped piece is able to move in and out in a deep slot so it can adjust for length - you can see that piece at the end of the shaft in the rendering.


I'll go get a picture if how the track moves. Obviously there is a limit to how much angle it can handle, but this is a shovel not a Baja racer!

EDIT: added pictures

Okay, here is the track assembly as it goes over a 'rock'

(https://i.postimg.cc/pV7x38wp/IMG-3712.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/WzQvrLGM/IMG-3713.jpg)

As it pivots, the point where the drive shaft attaches, at the axle of the rear sprocket (left end in picture) will be moving in relation to the frame, so the drive shaft has to both pivot and change length.

I think the slight downward angle of the drive shaft at rest is due to the fact that the half of the drive gear is below the axle, and they needed to keep some ground clearance at the center of the frame, otherwise they could have lowered the final drive gear down to make the shaft level.
Hope that explains it?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 27, 2018, 01:52:36 PM
This photo of the real machine gives a good view of how things angle down - the gears at the center had to be off the ground, and the shafts angle down slightly to the tracks.
(https://i.postimg.cc/50ZMZWX6/DSC-7170.jpg)
Also, remember that the track system was a later retrofit 'kit' that Marion put out in 1923 to convert the shovels from railroad trucks to tracks - they reused the mount points for the side jackstands to attach the front tracks, and the rear tracks mounted to the same pivot that the original trucks used (the side bolsters are still there but now unused for the rear tracks) :
(https://i.postimg.cc/bwvFHFvM/DSC-7164.jpg)
Originally, the rail trucks/wheels had a chain drive to their axles, that changed to this gear driven setup with a larger reduction in the gears since the tracks give a lot more rolling resistance than wheels on steel rails.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 28, 2018, 11:22:43 PM
Catching up on the latest work - got the core of the travel gear chain dog clutch made. Started out by turning a length of bar down to diameter and drilling the axle hole. The end of the hole was expanded out slightly to leave room for the retaining ring that will keep the gear from sliding sideways on the shaft (the first half of the clutch is going to be attached to the side of the gear). Then put the chuck on the rotary table to mill the 3-fingered shape on the end. I centered the rotary table under the mill, and moved it back by half the diameter of the end mill bit plus another few thou to make the fit a loose one. Took a cut every 120 degrees to form one side of the gap.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MKK8Q4Wh/IMG-3714.jpg)
Then moved the table back out to center and out another 1/2-diameter of the end mill, rotated the table to 60 degrees, and cut the other side of the gap, leaving a little waste section in the center of the gap.
(https://i.postimg.cc/WbWc6nzt/IMG-3715.jpg)
Quick cleanup pass halfway back on the gap, and the shape is done for the first half of the clutch.
(https://i.postimg.cc/qvNVm36w/IMG-3716.jpg)
The first half was parted off, and the process repeated on the second half. On this half, the notch for the retaining ring was taken deeper, so the second half can slide past the ring and fully engage the first half. After the same shaping on the mill, a notch was cut in to take the sliding ring which connects to the handle lever, then it was also parted off.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BvDW3fg1/IMG-3717.jpg)
Here are the two halves test fit against each other on the axle.
(https://i.postimg.cc/2jxD3mfQ/IMG-3720.jpg)
In order to mount the first half to the gear, the gear and clutch part were held on an arbor, one at a time, and drilled every 120 degrees on the rotary table for some alignment pins, and then loctited together.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cLPqPLQS/IMG-3722.jpg)
Next step will be to cut the keyway in the second half and the side of the axle for the key that the part will slide on. The key is a loose fit into the clutch half, so that the part can slide side to side on the axle but not rotate. When the clutch halfs are engaged, that will transfer motion from the axle to the gear. I don't have a arbor press or broach, so will most likely cut the keyway into the clutch half with a jewelers saw and square file. The slot in the axle will be milled in.
Then I will start on the ring and handle that go to the control lever.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on October 29, 2018, 01:17:04 AM
Still following along Chris, fantastic work!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 29, 2018, 09:10:37 PM
Not much time in the metal shop today, but did manage to get the key for the dog clutch made and installed. The key itself was milled down from some 3/16" square bar I had, down to about .130, which was then inset into the side of the axle in (hopefully!) the proper place with a small end mill.

(https://i.postimg.cc/26rTDt9Y/IMG-3724.jpg)

It was loctited in place, and then filed the slot into the moving portion of the dog clutch. Not having a arbor press and broaches, the slot was filed in with a small square needle file until it was a easy sliding fit.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rpSg7TJg/IMG-3726.jpg)
With that part complete, I can start on the ring that goes in the slot in the clutch to connect to the control arm....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 29, 2018, 09:25:56 PM
Somethine to look forward to (I am!) is some pictures to follow in a couple weeks of the real shovel. I got hold of the historical society with a proposal to supply a set of battery operated LED christmas lights to string around the perimeter of the shovel cab, boom, and tracks. They loved the idea, and I've got the supplies ordered (lights, batteries, clips to hold them on without holes/tape/etc). Should have things arranged for the install sometime in mid-November. Hopefully we get a decent weather day to put things up. The newer LED light strings will run for a couple months on a set of D-cells, they have timers to turn them on/off every day. Should make a nice attraction out of it for the holidays, maybe generate some more interest/funds for the restoration fund!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on October 29, 2018, 09:39:26 PM
Crueby:

The rendering in Reply #2306 has pins protruding from the "castings".  I assume those are there to show you that the bolt holes go where you think they go?  Or do you actually model the bolts too?

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 29, 2018, 10:09:37 PM
Crueby:

The rendering in Reply #2306 has pins protruding from the "castings".  I assume those are there to show you that the bolt holes go where you think they go?  Or do you actually model the bolts too?

Don
Hi Don,


For parts bolted into place, I like to model in simple cylinder pins where the bolts will be. On larger bolts sometimes will add the nuts, but not always. It lets me see where the fasteners will be, and the pins let me do a cut combine operation to make the holes in both the main parts and what they attach to, so the hole locations will show on the blueprints. Also, they make it easier to see if there will be clearance at edges and inside corners for the heads and nuts.


Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 30, 2018, 08:41:13 PM
For the control ring on the dog clutch, I bolted two short sections of steel bar together and drilled/bored out the center, so far looking a lot like a standard eccentric follower setup...
(https://i.postimg.cc/1zhGC10B/IMG-3728.jpg)
Mounted it on an arbor and used the rotary table on the mill to round the corners between the bolt flanges:
(https://i.postimg.cc/hGL9NZpB/IMG-3729.jpg)
and test fit on the clutch, where it rides in the slot on one end:
(https://i.postimg.cc/fLMxs7r0/IMG-3732.jpg)
Drilled for a couple short lengths of round bar for the pivots. These will be loctited in place, for now just slid into the holes till I can figure out how things will be assembled with the outer ring.
(https://i.postimg.cc/RhFK6S9S/IMG-3733.jpg)
The outer control ring was bent out of some flat stock (took a couple tries to get it right shape), and the ends drilled for the pivots. The silver soldered it to a straight length, which will be used to attach it to the control lever already in place on the model.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bJL1wG7V/IMG-3734.jpg)
After that cools and is cleaned up, I can see how the assembly will go together. There will be a hole drilled in the far end of the straight piece (and it will be trimmed to length) once it can be assembled onto the model and marked from the existing control lever end.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 30, 2018, 09:23:44 PM
As hoped, after cleaning up the outer yoke from soldering and testing, the two halves of the control ring will spring into place around the clutch, so I went ahead and loctited the pins into the ring halves.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 30, 2018, 10:33:03 PM
After some time to let the loctite set up, got the pieces of the clutch assembled. All is moving fine, so on to making the small retaining rings for the gear and axle...
(https://i.postimg.cc/prrqj9Fr/IMG-3737.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 31, 2018, 02:28:02 PM
The retaining rings are made and installed (2-56 grub screws), and the large gear is loctited in position. Once that cures, will give it a coat of paint (sorry Don) and then can spend an afternoon coaxing the bolts into position on the mounting blocks - going to be fussy getting all 8 of them inside the blocks and threaded down with an open end wrench. Then I can mark the handle on the control rod and get that cut/drilled to attach to the control linkage already in place on the model.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QN9XyMGD/IMG-3739.jpg)
While waiting for loctite and paint to set up, will start laying out stock for the big 'casting' at the end of the travel gear train, at the lower center in this picture. That block holds the final two axles.

(https://i.postimg.cc/76cq5ZMJ/Gear_Train.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Gas_mantle on October 31, 2018, 02:43:01 PM
Looking great Chris  :)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on October 31, 2018, 04:13:52 PM
Hello Chris,

That is another beautiful piece of work.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: sid pileski on October 31, 2018, 04:17:42 PM
Chris- I've been quietly following this incredible build.
I'm located in Skaneateles, NY, not too far from Rochester.
Where exactly is the shovel located?
Might be a nice drive out sometime.

Thanks, Sid
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 31, 2018, 05:44:10 PM
Chris- I've been quietly following this incredible build.
I'm located in Skaneateles, NY, not too far from Rochester.
Where exactly is the shovel located?
Might be a nice drive out sometime.

Thanks, Sid
Hi Sid,
Its just outside LeRoy NY on Gulf Road, across from the Hanson quarry. There is a small parking area at the side of the road, you can get about 30 feet from the shovel, it is fenced off so you cannot go up to it (posted land, belongs to the quarry, the town owns the rectangle the shovel sits on). Here is a link to google maps:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/42%C2%B059'33.0%22N+77%C2%B056'17.0%22W/@42.995438,-77.9466362,15.1z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d42.9925!4d-77.938056?hl=en (https://www.google.com/maps/place/42%C2%B059'33.0%22N+77%C2%B056'17.0%22W/@42.995438,-77.9466362,15.1z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d42.9925!4d-77.938056?hl=en)

Wikipedia page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marion_Steam_Shovel_(Le_Roy,_New_York) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marion_Steam_Shovel_(Le_Roy,_New_York))
There are a couple overlook spots you can see into the quarry from along the road (no fence, dont fall in!). There is also the Jello Museum in town that the historical society runs (LeRoy is where Jello came from).
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: sid pileski on October 31, 2018, 06:54:29 PM
That's funny. I've been to that Jello museum!

Thanks, Sid
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 31, 2018, 07:02:06 PM
That's funny. I've been to that Jello museum!

Thanks, Sid
Then you were just a coule miles from the shovel!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: sid pileski on October 31, 2018, 07:34:56 PM
Yes,I see that. I also visited the Mumford museum years ago with the kids.
Had I only known!

BTW, I don't think the wiki link works???

Sid
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 31, 2018, 08:01:00 PM
Yes,I see that. I also visited the Mumford museum years ago with the kids.
Had I only known!

BTW, I don't think the wiki link works???

Sid
Just fixed the link, the forum editor kept leaving off the close paren at the end of the link, should be good now.
That mumford museum (Genesee Country Museum) is a great one, they also hold events like a civil war re-enactment weekend every year, thanks for reminding me of that museum.  CRS strikes again!   :facepalm:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 31, 2018, 08:06:50 PM
While paint is drying on the clutch assembly, I got started figuring out how to make that final gear holder. On the original its a very large casting, but for the model it worked out well to use a set of 3/8" and 5/16" flat bar to piece up the center section, and will use some thin plate for the arched brackets out the sides. Here are the center bar sections cut down to size:
(https://i.postimg.cc/rmMRGc6r/IMG-3740.jpg)
They will get bolted together, probably run in some silver solder too. There are a couple of arched cutouts in the bottom plates that give room for the gears, plus a short section that sticks out on the front. Those cutouts would get very close to the edges of the inner blocks, so the silver solder should make one big hunk out of these smaller plates. I forgot to include a ruler, the longest length is 1.94", shortest sides are .894".
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on October 31, 2018, 09:10:05 PM
Yep, your excellent photos make the parts look much bigger...

 :popcorn:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on October 31, 2018, 09:35:58 PM
Chris...

The ratio of bearing width to shaft diameter of say 1.5:1 confirms the absolute mechanical loading that must have been exerted on :hammerbash: this dog clutch shaft

With respect to the painting of brass, I have seen brass that has been lightly grit blasted with Aluminium Oxide grit....& the result was a greyish surface finish & maintained this with just a few micron surface depth over the depth and poor adhesion of paint

With the actual clutch halves being totally flat/square without any tapered lead-in, would one half of the shaft required to be absolutely stationary, then the opposite coupling half inched around on diameter to ensure smooth engagement of the clutch?

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on October 31, 2018, 10:48:37 PM
Chris...

The ratio of bearing width to shaft diameter of say 1.5:1 confirms the absolute mechanical loading that must have been exerted on :hammerbash: this dog clutch shaft

With respect to the painting of brass, I have seen brass that has been lightly grit blasted with Aluminium Oxide grit....& the result was a greyish surface finish & maintained this with just a few micron surface depth over the depth and poor adhesion of paint

With the actual clutch halves being totally flat/square without any tapered lead-in, would one half of the shaft required to be absolutely stationary, then the opposite coupling half inched around on diameter to ensure smooth engagement of the clutch?

Derek
I have not heard of the grit blasting technique, have to try that.


The clutch needs to work in both directions, so could not be fully tapered on one side. I would assume they had to move the engine slowly to engage it, but I have not found any writing on its use, just the patent. I am hoping to find a catalog from the mid 20s someday, hope that may shed some light. The gearing to the clutch is around 10:1, so that would help slowly lining it up. The downstream half would be held stationary by still tracks, so as long as they were not runaway down a hill, that half would not move.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 01, 2018, 01:49:02 AM
Derek, just went and checked, turns out the grit I have for my airbrush type grit blaster is aluminum oxide, so I ran a test on half of one side of some scrap brass. Interesting effect, slightly gray, looks like a cast surface but still some brassy tint to it. Then taped off half the piece and sprayed on the same paint used on the gears as a comparison of how the paint looks next to and on both shiny and gritted surfaces. Will post pics in the morning...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 01, 2018, 02:20:03 PM
Derek, just went and checked, turns out the grit I have for my airbrush type grit blaster is aluminum oxide, so I ran a test on half of one side of some scrap brass. Interesting effect, slightly gray, looks like a cast surface but still some brassy tint to it. Then taped off half the piece and sprayed on the same paint used on the gears as a comparison of how the paint looks next to and on both shiny and gritted surfaces. Will post pics in the morning...
Here is how the test piece looked - started with one of the wedges from cutting the gear spokes, and grit blasted the narrow end, halfway out, then painted a half from the tip back. So, the lower right quadrant is the raw shiny brass, the lower right is gritblasted with aluminum oxide, and the upper half is those two surfaces painted the gray I have been using. The grit definitely got rid of the shine, and looked a little grey at first, but that was only till it was wiped off - at that point the grey went away and it was just dull brassy looking.

(https://i.postimg.cc/3wPdzdBD/IMG-3742.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 01, 2018, 08:48:14 PM
Well, two steps forward (bearing blocks for dog clutch assembly are on and started silver soldering up the final axle block), and one step back (need to remake the dog clutch axle).
I tipped up the main frame on its nose to get access to the bottom of the frame, and got the bearing blocks for the clutch assembly installed. In order to see the little hex head screws enough to get them started and tightened down, I needed more light under there. So, got out a VERY handy flashlight, which has a ball joint head, three segmented flexible legs, and strong magnets on each foot. Bent the legs around, and the magnets held the light onto the I-beams of the frame, aiming the light onto the bearing blocks:
(https://i.postimg.cc/QCTdkBdS/IMG-3743.jpg)
After a lot of fiddling with tweazers, needle-nose pliers, and a very small open end wrench, I got all four bolts in place and tightened down (the holes in the bottom flanges of the I-beams are threaded 2-56)
(https://i.postimg.cc/jCYd8sWT/IMG-3748.jpg)
The gears mesh well, all is good there.
BUT: the dog clutch was interfering with the large gear on the hoist drum.

 :facepalm:
According to the 3D model, that should not happen, so back to the drawings, checking measurements, and found I very carefully, very precisely, measured from the wrong place on the axle when placing the clutch gear/slider, so it was almost half an inch too far to the left.
 :wallbang:
So, I need to disassemble that axle and re-mill the slot for the keyway, moving the clutch parts over to where they belong.  I think I can do that without having to remove the larger gear, fortunately I used grub screws on the retaining rings so the clutch parts SHOULD all come apart again.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 01, 2018, 08:59:16 PM
I broke a tap off this afternoon and couldn't get it out. Very small disaster compared to yours We  should have both taken the afternoon off and went drinking!!!  :DrinkPint: :DrinkPint:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 01, 2018, 09:09:11 PM
I broke a tap off this afternoon and couldn't get it out. Very small disaster compared to yours We  should have both taken the afternoon off and went drinking!!!  :DrinkPint: :DrinkPint:
At least on mine nothing broke, and is able to be re-worked (will just leave extra keyway slot length).
I like the afternoon off idea though - couple of Guinesses would go well...
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on November 01, 2018, 09:21:33 PM
Hello Chris,

After several rounds of Guiness, I would strongly suggest to NOT get near your work  :DrinkPint: :cheers:

Have a good (hopefully a better day) day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 01, 2018, 09:54:33 PM
Hello Chris,

After several rounds of Guiness, I would strongly suggest to NOT get near your work  :DrinkPint: :cheers:

Have a good (hopefully a better day) day,
Thomas
Absolutely not!
Got the axle parts disassembled, looks like I can save the axle by just extending the keyway slot over to where it should have been. The key pried out of the slot okay, so it can be re-used too. I am now updating the drawings to make it clearer where things sit on the axle and bearing holders - top/bottom views get confusing too easily!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on November 02, 2018, 04:44:51 AM
Derek, just went and checked, turns out the grit I have for my airbrush type grit blaster is aluminum oxide, so I ran a test on half of one side of some scrap brass. Interesting effect, slightly gray, looks like a cast surface but still some brassy tint to it. Then taped off half the piece and sprayed on the same paint used on the gears as a comparison of how the paint looks next to and on both shiny and gritted surfaces. Will post pics in the morning...
Here is how the test piece looked - started with one of the wedges from cutting the gear spokes, and grit blasted the narrow end, halfway out, then painted a half from the tip back. So, the lower right quadrant is the raw shiny brass, the lower right is gritblasted with aluminum oxide, and the upper half is those two surfaces painted the gray I have been using. The grit definitely got rid of the shine, and looked a little grey at first, but that was only till it was wiped off - at that point the grey went away and it was just dull brassy looking.

(https://i.postimg.cc/3wPdzdBD/IMG-3742.jpg)
I'm unclear from your description here.  From this picture, I can't see much difference between the blasted side and the machined side, once painted. Was there more of a difference in person?  Or is it worth the effort to blast it?

Inquiring minds need to know!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 02, 2018, 11:55:00 AM
Once painted, the blasting side looked identical to the unblasted. The only visible difference is in the unblasted and blasted areas at the bottom left and right. Overall, it did not make much difference and does not appear to be worth it. The grey appearance that Derek thought would show from the blasting did not happen, that was the main reason for the test.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 02, 2018, 01:09:31 PM
I had good luck by sand blasting my P & W cast parts after machining:

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10010/P1030067.JPG)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10010/P1030068.JPG)

I'll look at them closer now that they're painted to see how they look.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 02, 2018, 01:57:45 PM
Jim, what coarseness grit (grit number?) did you use on that? The airbrush-style gun I have won't take larger grit sizes, so the finish is still pretty fine, looks like you were able to get a coarser finish.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 02, 2018, 02:09:55 PM
This morning the mods to the axle, to move the small gear and clutch over to the proper position, were done and the parts assembled back on the model. Here is a shot with the clutch disengaged:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Px8RRL5c/IMG-3751.jpg)
and engaged:
(https://i.postimg.cc/R0YYd14K/IMG-3750.jpg)
The hand lever on the control station floor has enough travel to move the clutch in and out, though I think the parts need a little oil to get them to slide easier on the axle. One thing I noticed was that the operator may have been able to look down through the hole in the floor and see where the clutch fingers were, and that would probably have made it easier to line things up and engage it, moving the main engine slowly till the fingers lined up close enough. The jaws on the real one were squared off at the ends like mine, but there is an inch or so of 'slop' in the fit, which would help getting them engaged.

Next up is the forward gear holder, which I mentioned has been silver soldered up, ready to machine. I have not attached the taller side plates yet, that will be done after the slots have been milled in - otherwise there will not be enough reach with the end mill past the plates. The slots are curved at the bottoms, so that the gears clear the slots. Cutting those slots is going to be interesting. I could mount the part to a faceplate, and use the rotary table in vertical mode to mill the curved slots, though that mounting would be tricky to get right and solid. I think I will try the math approach, and calculate out the lengths of the slot at each depth and do sort of a reverse-3d-print approach (Kvom will be chiming in on how easy it would be with CNC, I am sure!)
Here is the roughed in part. The square bit on the end is for the overhang they put on the one gear, my guess is to keep rocks and dirt from getting into the teeth from above.

(https://i.postimg.cc/d3PxPq70/IMG-3752.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on November 02, 2018, 03:05:38 PM
That is just awesome Chris........ :praise2:



 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on November 02, 2018, 05:14:51 PM
An air-brush style grit blaster is designed for "light" etching work.  Touching up minor boo-boos on a previously blasted part without having to re-mask everything, delicate glass etching, paint removal from small areas without damaging the substrate - that sort of thing.  If you are trying to simulate the look of a sand casting on a machined part then you want something that will tear up the substrate a little bit.

You are probably going to have to use a more manly-man type grit blaster.  For the size work that you're doing one of the "Horrible Fright" hand held grit blasters might get the job done without blasting too big of a hole in the pocketbook.  Anything that's much bigger than that and you'll spend a lot of time masking off the areas you DON'T want etched.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 02, 2018, 06:40:25 PM
An air-brush style grit blaster is designed for "light" etching work.  Touching up minor boo-boos on a previously blasted part without having to re-mask everything, delicate glass etching, paint removal from small areas without damaging the substrate - that sort of thing.  If you are trying to simulate the look of a sand casting on a machined part then you want something that will tear up the substrate a little bit.

You are probably going to have to use a more manly-man type grit blaster.  For the size work that you're doing one of the "Horrible Fright" hand held grit blasters might get the job done without blasting too big of a hole in the pocketbook.  Anything that's much bigger than that and you'll spend a lot of time masking off the areas you DON'T want etched.

Don
Sounds right - though the cost of the blaster isn't so bad, then I would need a larger compressor, should have a booth for it....  Nah!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 02, 2018, 07:15:46 PM
More done this afternoon on the front gear holder. As I described before, the curved slots for the gears to sit in were milled in, using a set of depths and lengths calculated out. The distances needed are basically a set of chords on a circle - as the cut goes deeper, the chord gets farther out on the circle, so it gets shorter. Here is a diagram of what I mean:
(https://i.postimg.cc/4NqD1nhH/Chords.jpg)
The circle with radius R represents the size of the gear, plus room for clearance. The distance D represents the depth of the cut to be made, from the center of the circle. The chord C shows the length of the cut to be made at that depth. If a series of deeper cuts starting at distance D and ending at the radius R are made, then the result will be an approximation of the curved slot - the shallower each cut is, the smoother it will be. For this part, I chose an increment from one depth to the next of .025", mainly since that is a half-turn on the column at a time so easy to do, and it gives a step size easy enough to blend in with a rotary tool.

So, started by drilling a reference hole along the centerline of the slot, down to the depth of the slot. This is 'R', measured from where the taller sides of the part will be, since that is where the center of the gear will be. This hole gave me a reference to bring the cutter back to after milling the horizontal area, and also a safe place to lower the cutter between cuts.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HLXdMXZL/IMG-3753.jpg)
I then plugged in the values for R and D into the formula for the chord length of a circle, which is C = 2*SQRT((r*r) - (d*d)). This was easily done in a little spreadsheet, with the value R constant and D increasing by .025 on each row. The value C is the length of the chord, and I want to move that distance out from the center each time, minus half the width (W) of the cutter, so the result of the formula was modified to get the length to move:  L = (C / 2) - (W / 2).
Sounds like a lot of kerfuffle, but its a couple simple formulas that give the depth and length to move. Here is what it looked like after a series of moves on the first slot:
(https://i.postimg.cc/63Kwfqgf/IMG-3757.jpg)
As I said, it leaves a lot of steps in the shape, but those will get blended with a rotary tool later.
The same was done for the larger slot for the bigger gear on the other side:
(https://i.postimg.cc/tTzbSyHQ/IMG-3759.jpg)
A test fit of the gears:
(https://i.postimg.cc/dVzJD49X/IMG-3761.jpg)
Last thing to mill on this part was the overhanging block, took that down to match the slot inside using several cuts with the part being rotated in the vise between cuts.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Fzs4wq9f/IMG-3762.jpg)
Here is the part with the taller sides set next to it, to show where this is going. The axle bearings will be on the end of that taller side, with the gears hanging down into the slots. The slots are just there for clearance. In this picture, I have taken a tapered grinding wheel in a rotary tool, and smoothed out the steps in the slots.

(https://i.postimg.cc/FzW4vZRT/IMG-3764.jpg)
Next step is to drill/tap some holes to hold the side plates onto the center block, and then I can make the bearings and caps to hold the axles. There will also be some overhanging rib plates that extend the base of this part, used to attach it all to the bottom of the main frame.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on November 02, 2018, 07:38:30 PM
Chris if you have my spreadsheet on Coordinates Calculation sheets the tab Cavity Radius pickup table does it for you. I will post it for those who wish to have it but it is in plaans and drawings. Nice work again Chris you are the tops..... :ThumbsUp:

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 02, 2018, 07:52:14 PM
Chris if you have my spreadsheet on Coordinates Calculation sheets the tab Cavity Radius pickup table does it for you. I will post it for those who wish to have it but it is in plaans and drawings. Nice work again Chris you are the tops..... :ThumbsUp:

Don
Thats perfect - I have used your spoke calculation spreadsheet but had not noticed this one - thanks!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on November 02, 2018, 10:53:11 PM
Chris I imagine you needed some special math "hogarithms " to do all that hogging out in the big brass chunk. Nicely done as always.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 02, 2018, 11:52:56 PM
Chris I imagine you needed some special math "hogarithms " to do all that hogging out in the big brass chunk. Nicely done as always.
Or a Nogarithm to Nibble the slots!   :Lol:   
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on November 03, 2018, 12:26:45 AM
A flycutter might  be easier for those type slots.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 03, 2018, 12:35:19 AM
A flycutter might  be easier for those type slots.
How would I go sideways to make a 3/8 wide slot with a flycutter?  I have only used one to do top surface cuts.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on November 03, 2018, 04:46:51 AM
Nice work on the curved slots for the gears, Chris.

I think the idea would be to use a fly cutter 90o to the part to carve out the inside, not like you would to face a large area. Can't figure out how you'd shape the outside with a fly cutter. But maybe I'm misunderstanding Kvom?

Anyway, the way you did it worked mighty well!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: MJM460 on November 03, 2018, 10:06:23 AM
Hi Chris, your work and rate of progress continue to astound as always. 

Sorry to be a bit late to the party on that sandblasting experiment.  May I suggest that it is not surprising that you don't see too much immediate difference between paint applied over sand blasting or not.  The sand blasting is part of the surface treatment process.  It is absolutely important to a long lasting job.  The difference is more likely to show up after a bit of longer term operation, wear and tear.

I don't know how practical it is to do more of the job.  But a heavy duty system for severe corrosive environments would always start with a very thorough sand blast surface preparation.  In general, steel parts would benefit more than brass I would expect.  And you would not want to destroy carefully machined surfaces. 

So in general probably worthwhile when practical, especially on metals likely to corrode, but not dramatic when the paint is first applied.

MJM460
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 03, 2018, 12:46:39 PM
Hi Chris, your work and rate of progress continue to astound as always. 

Sorry to be a bit late to the party on that sandblasting experiment.  May I suggest that it is not surprising that you don't see too much immediate difference between paint applied over sand blasting or not.  The sand blasting is part of the surface treatment process.  It is absolutely important to a long lasting job.  The difference is more likely to show up after a bit of longer term operation, wear and tear.

I don't know how practical it is to do more of the job.  But a heavy duty system for severe corrosive environments would always start with a very thorough sand blast surface preparation.  In general, steel parts would benefit more than brass I would expect.  And you would not want to destroy carefully machined surfaces. 

So in general probably worthwhile when practical, especially on metals likely to corrode, but not dramatic when the paint is first applied.

MJM460
The painting over the blasted area was not really what I was testing. The original idea from derek was that the blasted area would come out greyer, so painting would not be needed. I only painted on the test piece to get a comparison between blasted and painted surfaces. End result was that the blasting did not do enough, and will continue to paint as normal. The ceramic infused engine paint is tough enough and adheres to the metal quite well.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 03, 2018, 02:09:44 PM
Jim, what coarseness grit (grit number?) did you use on that? The airbrush-style gun I have won't take larger grit sizes, so the finish is still pretty fine, looks like you were able to get a coarser finish.

Not sure about the coarseness of the sand Chris. I'm using a regular small sandblaster with a worn out 1 1/2 hp compressor at about 80psi.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10010/P1030068.JPG)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 03, 2018, 08:25:59 PM
Continuing on with the travel gear holder, thinned the lower section of the side plates to size, and finished the inside corner with a ball end mill.
(https://i.postimg.cc/TY0f36kH/IMG-3765.jpg)
Also took a light truing cut on the top surface to even out the plates and the solder.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CxKYZQXM/IMG-3768.jpg)
The axles are turned and the gears loctited in place. After that cures, will make the bronze bearings and start on the bearing caps. The top overhang and the braces out the sides still need to be made and added on, but its easier to hold in the mill vise to do the bearings before they get added on.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ht3nV0RL/IMG-3769.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on November 04, 2018, 01:24:45 AM
Looking mighty sharp there, Chris!

You may need to get the elves out there with the acetone and a shop rag.  Looks like some graffiti on your brass there.  Hey, maybe the elves are out tagging things at night?  Do you have rival elf gangs?  :ROFL:

Kim

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 04, 2018, 01:35:25 AM
Looking mighty sharp there, Chris!

You may need to get the elves out there with the acetone and a shop rag.  Looks like some graffiti on your brass there.  Hey, maybe the elves are out tagging things at night?  Do you have rival elf gangs?  :ROFL:

Kim


 :o


Explains the different colors the elf teams are wearing...   :Lol:




Actually that one is a note on the mesh distance on the two gear axles. I use permanent markers a lot on parts for layout lines, measurements, orientation notes, etc. Nice thing is that with a little alcohol on a tissue the marks come right off, as long as they haven't been there too many days.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on November 04, 2018, 02:31:42 AM
Hi Chris , looking good..just a thought about how strong the lactate Loctite is ,so how much force would it take to "give"  say in foot pounds !!To move one of those gears on its shaft ?? :-\ :thinking:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 04, 2018, 02:48:06 AM
Hi Chris , looking good..just a thought about how strong the lactate Loctite is ,so how much force would it take to "give"  say in foot pounds !!To move one of those gears on its shaft ?? :-\ :thinking:
Good question, I have not done any calculations on that, but have never had it fail yet (always can be a first time!) The gears are around 3/8" thick (hoist gears even thicker) so there is a large surface area for it to grab. The times that I have tried turning two gears on same shaft against each other by hand, nothing moved. If any is likely to it would be the final gear, getting the most torque from the tracks. Time will tell, can always add a pin or screw if it does let go. On crankshafts I like to add taper pins as extra strength.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 04, 2018, 06:41:43 PM
Bit more done this morning on the travel gear train, made the blanks for the bearing caps, and drilled through for the axles:
(https://i.postimg.cc/4dxhk6Xd/IMG-3771.jpg)
Test fit on the axles, looks good, ready to round off the tops of the caps, then get started on the side webs:
(https://i.postimg.cc/5t3FR7dT/IMG-3774.jpg)
Again, here is the render of the finished parts, the webs I am talking about are the thin overhangs and the braces at the bottom center, which provide a place to bolt through into the I-beams:
(https://i.postimg.cc/76cq5ZMJ/Gear_Train.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on November 04, 2018, 06:56:00 PM
Looking great and just some awesome work and you know ......I...........like.......  :Love:



 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 05, 2018, 02:38:19 PM
The bearing caps have been rounded over as usual and assembled onto the main block:
(https://i.postimg.cc/q71QqHjk/IMG-3775.jpg)
Next up is the top plate and brackets, starting out with a piece of sheet stock for the top, that was sawn out and filed, it will be screwed to the top of the main block. The vertical brackets will be milled out of some more sheet stock, and silver soldered to this top plate, probably using some small screws or pins to keep them in place for soldering.
(https://i.postimg.cc/YSrbtCNn/IMG-3776.jpg)
Oh, and the screw holes in the base have been filled with some JBWeld.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: RonGinger on November 05, 2018, 04:20:11 PM
Since the webs are purely decoration to  make it look like the original have you considered attaching them with JB Weld? It would be simpler than the drilling and tapping and silver soldering. You could even create a small filet in the corners as a casting would have had. It will all be painted anyway.

 Even soft solder would do and might not require the pins.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 05, 2018, 05:16:40 PM
Since the webs are purely decoration to  make it look like the original have you considered attaching them with JB Weld? It would be simpler than the drilling and tapping and silver soldering. You could even create a small filet in the corners as a casting would have had. It will all be painted anyway.

 Even soft solder would do and might not require the pins.
Good points, that would save a lot of time. And would be able to use the center block to position them to. Thanks!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Roger B on November 05, 2018, 07:04:31 PM
I don't think I have managed to catch up on all your progress since I last looked but splendid as ever  :praise2:  :praise2:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 05, 2018, 07:05:10 PM
I don't think I have managed to catch up on all your progress since I last looked but splendid as ever  :praise2: :praise2:
Thanks!  Another 10 seconds and you would have had one MORE post to read!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 05, 2018, 07:06:43 PM
Got the top plate for the travel gear train holder bolted on, and cut out the blanks for the little brackets that will go underneath. I am thinking that the shape will be most easily done with an alignment block and a hold down clamp on the rotary table on the mill....
(https://i.postimg.cc/Xq2kNRWR/IMG-3777.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Roger B on November 05, 2018, 07:53:44 PM
I don't think I have managed to catch up on all your progress since I last looked but splendid as ever  :praise2: :praise2:
Thanks!  Another 10 seconds and you would have had one MORE post to read!   :Lol:

 ::)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 06, 2018, 05:20:04 PM
Set up the tooling plate on the rotary table, and made a little recess for the bracket blanks to sit into. The recess is a little oversized, the only parts that matter on it are the outside and one side edges, to form a corner for the blank to sit against and be clamped down. That gave it a secure place so every plate went in to the same position for milling the inside arc and the inside straight edge.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wTb6FPW7/IMG-3779.jpg)
Here are the parts set in place on the top plate:
(https://i.postimg.cc/RZ6vYR8G/IMG-3780.jpg)
I will mark out and drill the mounting holes that hold the assembly to the main frame, then come back and solder the braces in place. I like Ron's idea of soft soldering them, and will add some jb weld as filets if the solder does not leave enough.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on November 06, 2018, 08:01:08 PM
Cool Dog looking good, but I would mill a small recess into the block where the brackets will be soldered allowing the solder to go into since they are support brackets. Just my two cents but you know .......I.........like....... :Love:


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 06, 2018, 08:41:38 PM
Cool Dog looking good, but I would mill a small recess into the block where the brackets will be soldered allowing the solder to go into since they are support brackets. Just my two cents but you know .......I.........like....... :Love:


 :cheers:
Don
Too late, already soldered on!  The top plate is plenty strong to hold the block, and it bolts onto the flat flanges of the I beams, so it should be good. Time will tell, can always remake it!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Johnmcc69 on November 06, 2018, 10:20:44 PM
 :ThumbsUp:
 All looking good as always Chris!

 John
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 06, 2018, 10:35:19 PM
Thanks John, parts have been painted, should have them on the model tomorrow morning. Then I think will start on the hoist clutch and brake parts.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 06, 2018, 11:18:04 PM
The travel gear train end with some paint splattered on:
(https://i.postimg.cc/xdWDBJhm/IMG-3782.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/Qt1GDNZy/IMG-3783.jpg)
Tomorrow after it has cured up it can get bolted onto the frame...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on November 07, 2018, 05:40:30 AM
Nice soldering!  did you end up using some JBWeld to add fillets?  Also, it looks like you soldered only one edge to the base.  Is that correct? If so, why's that? I would think it would hold the gear box better if the vertical edge were soldered too.

Inquiring minds...
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 07, 2018, 01:10:42 PM
Nice soldering!  did you end up using some JBWeld to add fillets?  Also, it looks like you soldered only one edge to the base.  Is that correct? If so, why's that? I would think it would hold the gear box better if the vertical edge were soldered too.

Inquiring minds...
Kim
I did not add anything to the solder joints themselves, just ran in a little extra solder and it built up the joints. The vertical joints are not soldered - tried but to get the large block hot enough was way overheating the thinner plate. I may add some JB to those joints to fill them in. The top plate is bolted to the main block, that is the place the strength is coming from.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 07, 2018, 03:53:28 PM
Kim, you were right, the little gaps on the vertical seams of the brackets just did not look right. Tried a new material for the filet (at least to me), used some gel style CA glue and ran a little bead down the seam. Dried quick and looks reasonable. Some of the excess did not dry too well, so sprinkled on some baking soda to kick it, then gave it some paint:
(https://i.postimg.cc/0Nky82Gj/IMG-3784.jpg)
Then went ahead and assembled it onto the frame with the bolts through the top plate. All is meshing well, so I am very happy with how the gear trains came out. I was going to start on the hoist clutch, but then remembered the drive shafts for the tracks, so those will be next. Here is what they look like on the real thing:
(https://i.postimg.cc/xqV9B0T0/IMG-1537.jpg)
Each end has a 4-post universal joint inside the big hemisphere, which has a set of deep grooves so the 4-post drive can slide in and out as the distance to the track changes as the track pitches forward/back. I am not sure why they used the big seperate jawed ring (looks like a dog clutch) on the middle shaft to hold the inner hemisphere in place. The outer one just has its own cross pin, seems like they could have done the same thing on the inner one. You can see that the inner hemisphere has slipped down the shaft a bit, exposing some of the inner posts. Anyway, I think I will knock out the drive shafts first, then go back to the hoist clutch.

Here are some family shots of the whole model so far:
(https://i.postimg.cc/B6tZKYVG/IMG-3790.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/1Xq9WgSC/IMG-3794.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/xd6TqDgR/IMG-3799.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/qRYJXsP6/IMG-3796.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on November 07, 2018, 04:42:04 PM
Hello Chris,

Well from the photo the seams look OK and much better than left open. Looking Good :praise2:

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on November 07, 2018, 08:49:04 PM
Crueby:

Regarding why they used a "dog clutch" to hold the inner hemisphere in place.  Maybe they found out the hard way that the deep grooves in the hemisphere by themselves aren't enough to allow the full up and down travel of the tracks without things being ripped apart.  There might be some sort of travel limiter inside the hemisphere casting that only allows it to move a fixed distance laterally, then the "dog clutch" takes over and allows the rest of the required movement.  I'm assuming that you haven't taken one of these apart to see what's inside? 

Have you moved the tracks to the full up and down positions to measure how much travel you need for these shafts?

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 07, 2018, 09:02:57 PM
Crueby:

Regarding why they used a "dog clutch" to hold the inner hemisphere in place.  Maybe they found out the hard way that the deep grooves in the hemisphere by themselves aren't enough to allow the full up and down travel of the tracks without things being ripped apart.  There might be some sort of travel limiter inside the hemisphere casting that only allows it to move a fixed distance laterally, then the "dog clutch" takes over and allows the rest of the required movement.  I'm assuming that you haven't taken one of these apart to see what's inside? 

Have you moved the tracks to the full up and down positions to measure how much travel you need for these shafts?

Don
Very hard to tell without taking one apart, and I think one of these shaft assemblies would weigh more than my car (plus the historical society would beat me with the drive shaft if I tried). On the model, lifting one end of a track at a time by 30 degrees changes the length only around 1/16", which would only be 1 inch at full size. That would be well within the depth of the slots on the U-joints. I wonder if it was to make it easier to assemble in the field, or to back off the clutch side and let the thing freewheel for some reason (maybe for installing track plates?). The patents don't go into detail on the drive shafts at all, and I don't have a catalog from the era where the tracks were used (still hoping to find one someday). If the dog clutch side is really driving the big end, it must have some sort of splines or keyway inside, but that is not visible. Must be a reason...   :thinking:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on November 07, 2018, 09:51:29 PM
Letting it freewheel would make sense for track repair.  Hard to be sure without a look inside.

Maybe you could send the Ninja elves out for a little midnight reconnizence, reconnoyter, look-see?

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 07, 2018, 10:30:53 PM
Letting it freewheel would make sense for track repair.  Hard to be sure without a look inside.

Maybe you could send the Ninja elves out for a little midnight reconnizence, reconnoyter, look-see?

Don
:Lol:

The more I think about it the more I think that it would help assembly too, they could slide it up the shaft once the drive shaft was engaged at the outer end too.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on November 07, 2018, 11:02:26 PM
Dog those family shots are so cool I get the chills. Damn son that looks awesome..... :praise2:


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 07, 2018, 11:22:09 PM
Dog those family shots are so cool I get the chills. Damn son that looks awesome..... :praise2:


 :cheers:
Don
Thanks Don!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: RJH on November 08, 2018, 12:33:44 AM
Would it help to turn a corner better if they could manually disconnect one drive shaft?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 08, 2018, 12:44:30 AM
Would it help to turn a corner better if they could manually disconnect one drive shaft?
Hmm. It is front track drive, rear track steering, so it could only turn as sharp as the rear track will turn to the side. But, not having a differential, that would make some sense, since it would not have to slide as much. The time needed to disconnect and reconnect it would be a problem, and if the u joint moved down the drive shaft would fall off. Given how early this was in track development, 1923, it may just have been an assembly thing. I would love to see a catalog from mid 1920s and see what it says about it.


 :thinking:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on November 08, 2018, 03:51:17 PM
Whew. My last reply was some 230 posts ago.
After a 37 day road trip, and two weeks of trying to recover a toasted hard drive (I'm still not done), I thought I'd be seeing a Marion trundling down your driveway.  ;D

Can't you go a bit faster?  :Lol: Are your elves slacking off?

But I can't add much more to what all has been said here. Fantastic project.

P.S. I saw your post about your elves maybe getting hold of my Stinking Hoppie recipe. You'd best warn them...that recipe is what toasted my hard drive.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 08, 2018, 07:07:36 PM
Whew. My last reply was some 230 posts ago.
After a 37 day road trip, and two weeks of trying to recover a toasted hard drive (I'm still not done), I thought I'd be seeing a Marion trundling down your driveway.  ;D

Can't you go a bit faster?  :Lol: Are your elves slacking off?

But I can't add much more to what all has been said here. Fantastic project.

P.S. I saw your post about your elves maybe getting hold of my Stinking Hoppie recipe. You'd best warn them...that recipe is what toasted my hard drive.


We have been waiting for you!    :Lol:


And taking time off to carve a weathervane, build a rc submarine, go to Maine... Yeah, slacking off!


Still many months to go on the Marion, having lots of fun on it!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on November 08, 2018, 08:06:34 PM
Chris, since Zee’s National Lampoon vacation is over, perhaps you should invite him up to assist and get you caught up   :stickpoke:, he is retired you know  :lolb:.. BTW Zee, how did the steam cooking thingy work out for you? Now, back to the build. I’m thinking the “half-shafts”, with u-joints, would be just for the “up and down “ movement of the tracks, because, all tracked vehicles turn by one track turning and the other not or at least not as much or in the opposite direction. See, that’s how if you want to do it really quick, one track goes forward and the other back. Grandpa Reid put me on a D8 Cat dozer when I was 15 and wouldn’t let me lower the blade until I could “drive it “ . After I got the feel, it made sense. If any of y’all have a “zero turn” lawnmower, it’s exactly the same; hence my thinking that the half shafts were for power transmission and vertical movements. Ok, back to the elves :lolb:

Eric
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 08, 2018, 08:54:04 PM
Chris, since Zee’s National Lampoon vacation is over, perhaps you should invite him up to assist and get you caught up   :stickpoke: , he is retired you know  :lolb: .. BTW Zee, how did the steam cooking thingy work out for you? Now, back to the build. I’m thinking the “half-shafts”, with u-joints, would be just for the “up and down “ movement of the tracks, because, all tracked vehicles turn by one track turning and the other not or at least not as much or in the opposite direction. See, that’s how if you want to do it really quick, one track goes forward and the other back. Grandpa Reid put me on a D8 Cat dozer when I was 15 and wouldn’t let me lower the blade until I could “drive it “ . After I got the feel, it made sense. If any of y’all have a “zero turn” lawnmower, it’s exactly the same; hence my thinking that the half shafts were for power transmission and vertical movements. Ok, back to the elves :lolb:

Eric
Oh, wrong on SO many fronts...
 :LittleDevil:
Lets see, Zee is always most welcome to visit, but helping in the shop.....  ummmmm.... errrr... Oh yes, thatwould be MOST helpful.... What was your address again to send Zee over? Tennessee somewhere?? 

 :lolb:
As for the tracks, in this case, as with the Lombard, the driven tracks ONLY provide power, they do nothing to steer the machine. Not ALL tracked vehicles steer by the tracks - look at the old WW-II halftrack trucks. On the Lombard, the front wheels did the steering, and the tracks had a differential so they did not overpower the wheels and make it keep going straght. On the Marion, the front tracks drive together always, no differential or stopping one track at a time, and the rear tracks, which are un-driven, do all the steering since they can rotate left and right on the center vertical pivot. The front tracks, with no differential and a smooth outer surface (no grouser ribs), would skid some in the turns, but since they were normally on dirt, mud, hard rock, etc, that is not a problem, and it only did half a mile an hour at best speed anyway.
So, the U-joints accounted for the vertical pitching motion as it went over uneven ground - the track has a central horizontal axle that it can pivot front and back on, which changed the angle to the drive shaft in the center of the machine as well as a slight distance difference.
Anyway, back to the elves!
(https://i.postimg.cc/1z4PrRQg/elf.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 08, 2018, 08:57:06 PM
Was out and about most of the day, this afternoon got a start on the drive nubs for the U-joints on the track drive shafts. There are four of these at each end, they will be set into the round end of the ball at the ends of the shafts, to be made next. The big bars at the left top will be those balls, the narrower bars are the drive shafts themselves. The outer housings will come after these parts are made...

(https://i.postimg.cc/3w6hSM8t/IMG-3800.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on November 08, 2018, 11:41:12 PM
Well excuuuuuuuuse me. I guess your Marion is different than any track driven piece of equipment I’ve ever operated. Of coarse I’ve only ran those built in the early 50’s or so  :shrug:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 09, 2018, 12:02:54 AM
Well excuuuuuuuuse me. I guess your Marion is different than any track driven piece of equipment I’ve ever operated. Of coarse I’ve only ran those built in the early 50’s or so  :shrug:
No problem, this is way different than a typical dozer or modern crane, still early days in tracked machines. Hope I didn't come across too strong, just having some fun with you!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 09, 2018, 05:15:19 PM
This morning I started on the inner U-joint ball fittings, turned the ends half-round and drilled to match the shafts (the shaft ends at the track axle and drive axle are different diameters).
(https://i.postimg.cc/5yh0nvRy/IMG-3801.jpg)
Moved over to the mill, and drilled the cross holes in the end for the drive posts. The square collet holder gave an easy way to index the part 90 degrees for each hole, the end of the collet holder was lined up with the edge of the mill vise so all the holes were in one plane.
(https://i.postimg.cc/k4hDRLNx/IMG-3802.jpg)
And a test fit of the posts on the first end:
(https://i.postimg.cc/0jMjYZZh/IMG-3803.jpg)
The part was taken back over to the lathe to part off the end from the bar. An on to the next one of the 4 pieces...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on November 09, 2018, 06:42:25 PM
Hello Chris,

That is a bit of nifty work there  :ThumbsUp:

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 09, 2018, 10:19:45 PM
Got the rest of the ball end fittings made, and the posts installed (most were press fit in, couple needed a drop of loctite). Here are the two pairs of them (small holes to inside drive shaft, large to the axle on the track sporcket).
(https://i.postimg.cc/nLnr9Drx/IMG-3805.jpg)
And one of them fit on the track sprocket axle where it will go....
(https://i.postimg.cc/Gpz2FmTy/IMG-3806.jpg)
They will be held in place with grub screws, to allow for disassembly if needed.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on November 10, 2018, 07:50:52 AM
Looking good Chris!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 10, 2018, 01:59:07 PM
Nice work Chris.

Would you mind elaborating on how you formed those ball ends?

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 10, 2018, 02:10:44 PM
Nice work Chris.

Would you mind elaborating on how you formed those ball ends?

Jim
Hi Jim.  I don't have a ball turner gizmo for the lathe, so they were just hand turned on the ends, by eye, then cleaned up and faired in with a flat file while spinning. The file makes it easy to take off high spots and get a good curve. They are   not ball bearing perfect, but close enough to work. The arc continues back past center to the start of the flat end.
I know some here will yell at me for filing on the lathe, but it is well away from the chuck, using just the middle of the file on an outside curve so no risk of catching the file.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 10, 2018, 03:36:26 PM
Nice work Chris.

Would you mind elaborating on how you formed those ball ends?

Jim
Hi Jim.  I don't have a ball turner gizmo for the lathe, so they were just hand turned on the ends, by eye, then cleaned up and faired in with a flat file while spinning. The file makes it easy to take off high spots and get a good curve. They are   not ball bearing perfect, but close enough to work. The arc continues back past center to the start of the flat end.
I know some here will yell at me for filing on the lathe, but it is well away from the chuck, using just the middle of the file on an outside curve so no risk of catching the file.

Thanks Chris.......they sure came out nice. One of these days I want to get set up with a tool rest and some gravers to try some turning.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 10, 2018, 03:50:24 PM
Nice work Chris.

Would you mind elaborating on how you formed those ball ends?

Jim
Hi Jim.  I don't have a ball turner gizmo for the lathe, so they were just hand turned on the ends, by eye, then cleaned up and faired in with a flat file while spinning. The file makes it easy to take off high spots and get a good curve. They are   not ball bearing perfect, but close enough to work. The arc continues back past center to the start of the flat end.
I know some here will yell at me for filing on the lathe, but it is well away from the chuck, using just the middle of the file on an outside curve so no risk of catching the file.

Thanks Chris.......they sure came out nice. One of these days I want to get set up with a tool rest and some gravers to try some turning.
Turning with gravers is something I have never tried (bought some gravers, they still sit in the drawer...)  These ends were just cut with the normal turning tool on the lathe, etcha-sketch style with the handwheels till it was close to round, then filed fair.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 10, 2018, 06:51:30 PM
This afternoon I got the blanks for the outer shells of the u-joints cut out, and started in on the first one. The hole for the axle shaft was drilled/bored out to be a sliding fit, and the outer end bored out to take the ball fitting. That hole is just deep enough for the fitting to go into, and on the original machine that was a hollow spherical shape to take the ball. Not having CNC, and knowing that the ball ends are not perfect, I just bored a cylindrical hole, and will let the bottom and outer surfaces of the ball contact that hole.

(https://i.postimg.cc/KvCvvFGb/IMG-3808.jpg)
Then moved the chuck over to the rotary table, and milled in the slots for the posts. These are deep enough to let the posts rotate without touching bottom. I found when test fitting the ball, that it would go in flat and towards any one post just fine, but bind a bit when angling it between the posts, since that pushes the ends out just a bit. So, I widened the slots another few thou, and it runs fine at the angles needed.
(https://i.postimg.cc/7Z7P5ch2/IMG-3810.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/0NskDfKH/IMG-3813.jpg)
One down, 3 to go, then I can start shaping the outsides of the shells. Given that they are all curves on the outside, I think it will need an arbor to hold them for turning.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on November 11, 2018, 05:42:28 AM
Just fascinating work, Chris.   :popcorn:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 11, 2018, 08:26:28 PM
Just fascinating work, Chris.   :popcorn:
Kim
Thanks Kim!  Got the second U-joint shell up to same spot as the first, and halfway through the third - got some family stuff this weekend/next couple days, so will not be much shop time for a couple days...
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Gas_mantle on November 11, 2018, 11:51:16 PM
Looking great Chris  :ThumbsUp:

I'm always amazed how you manage to machine large components on relatively small tooling.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 12, 2018, 12:33:02 AM
Looking great Chris  :ThumbsUp:

I'm always amazed how you manage to machine large components on relatively small tooling.


Hmmm.... That needs some sort of saying, how about,  with enough small bites a mouse can eat an elephant! 


Maybe thats why they are supposed to be scared of mice!   :Lol:


Actually, the 4 jaw was having a hard time on these latest parts, had to reverse the jaws so there was a small contact patch, one did slip out while boring but luckily no damage to anything.

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Gas_mantle on November 12, 2018, 12:59:21 AM
Hmmm.... That needs some sort of saying, how about,  with enough small bites a mouse can eat an elephant! 

You give me positive inspiration  :)

I keep pondering how big a steam engine I can realistically build on my 10x22 lathe and bench mill, I really want to make something that can do some proper work and won't be satisfied till I've build it  ;)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 12, 2018, 01:30:03 PM
Hmmm.... That needs some sort of saying, how about,  with enough small bites a mouse can eat an elephant! 

You give me positive inspiration  :)

I keep pondering how big a steam engine I can realistically build on my 10x22 lathe and bench mill, I really want to make something that can do some proper work and won't be satisfied till I've build it  ;)
A full size Marion?    :embarassed:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on November 12, 2018, 10:17:01 PM
Chris......slow speed, high load spherical motion transmission couplings are very interesting  :hellno:

If my understanding is correct, there will be a single surface point contact between the male spherical to the female spherical surface '

From there, the actual motion [drive] transmitted will be between each of the head OD's of the 4 pegs and their corresponding cavities

So each of the 4 pegs are subjected to a shear movement :hammerbash:, however are supported against shear by the head to cavity dimension/tolerance

Possibly they were intentionally non lubricated ...[as air borne dust & grit is attracted to lubricated surfaces], so just relied on composite materials in construction....[as you have done]

Considering what they do, and their duty cycle, the couplings would probably never need replacement in the life of the Shovel

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 13, 2018, 12:19:50 AM
Hi Derek,


Interesting info, I had figured that depending on the angle that the contact point of the posts would sequence around as it turns, but had not thought of a single point on the ball. Guess that makes sense as the assembly takes up load and twists against the next part. Goes to show how much technology is behind apparently simple parts.

Given the dirty environment, no grease  makes sense, but in thier catalog they describe the need for periodic thin coats of oil on the inside ends of the chain to keep it from grinding the ends of the links. Also they say to swap the chains end for end periodically to even wear. I'd love to find a maintenance/operation manual for one of these, closest I have is one from 1932.


Funny how maintenance procedures change over time and environment. Several years ago the show Dirty Jobs did an episode on the NASA crawler, used to move rockets and shuttles, which was made by Marion. They were putting in new layers of super thick grease on the track wheels. It ran in a much cleaner environment, with a much bigger maintenance budget.

 :cheers:
 
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 13, 2018, 05:04:34 PM
Back in the shop today, started in shaping the outsides of the U-joint shells. First up is one of the shorter outside parts, turned the narrow end down to size, then roughed in the curved sections to get close to the final shape.
(https://i.postimg.cc/jdLRDYS4/IMG-3827.jpg)
After a couple of shallow smoothing cuts it was finished off and faired with a flat file on the outside curve and a quarter round file for the inside portion of the curve.
(https://i.postimg.cc/dVCv9Rd7/IMG-3828.jpg)
Then it was turned around, and the final shaping done on the large end to finish the curve and form the lip at the end.
(https://i.postimg.cc/dtpwdN7P/IMG-3830.jpg)
One down, three to go...
(https://i.postimg.cc/9fj2g4tL/IMG-3832.jpg)
Here is the first shaft assembly test fit on the model:
(https://i.postimg.cc/YSfH5pdM/IMG-3833.jpg)
It quickly became apparent why they wanted to have at least one end be able to be slid down the shaft - otherwise there is no way to assemble the shaft onto the tracks, it would take a very steep pitch angle on the track end to make it slip into place. I still am not sure why they used the seperate dog clutch piece, which I assume has a keyway of some sort, at least a pin it rides on, and did not just put a key for the upper end to slide on. But, they did it that way, so I will copy that until my time machine is ready!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 13, 2018, 07:28:06 PM
And the first long U-joint shell is turned to shape on the outside (except for the lip at the large end, that will come later).

(https://i.postimg.cc/Ssjn7SFQ/IMG-3834.jpg)
Next it needs to switch over to the mill to cut the teeth for the dog-clutch-type end plate. Not sure what to call it, since it really isn't a clutch in the normal sense.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on November 13, 2018, 08:05:29 PM
I still am not sure why they used the seperate dog clutch piece, which I assume has a keyway of some sort, at least a pin it rides on, and did not just put a key for the upper end to slide on.

Maybe we're over-thinking this dog clutch thing.  Maybe the answer is simply that they didn't have a collar in the size required by the shaft but they already HAD a dog clutch in the proper size so they used it?  You know how the Parts Department loves it when one spare part can be used in a multitude of places.

I think you're right about the keyway, I'd think that this whole assembly would have to be keyed to the shaft.  You'd want as much surface area driving this beast as possible.  Wouldn't a single pin hitting in the same spot all the time cause un-due stress and wear at that point?  It would after all have to take the stresses of moving the whole machine.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 13, 2018, 09:02:32 PM
I still am not sure why they used the seperate dog clutch piece, which I assume has a keyway of some sort, at least a pin it rides on, and did not just put a key for the upper end to slide on.

Maybe we're over-thinking this dog clutch thing.  Maybe the answer is simply that they didn't have a collar in the size required by the shaft but they already HAD a dog clutch in the proper size so they used it?  You know how the Parts Department loves it when one spare part can be used in a multitude of places.

I think you're right about the keyway, I'd think that this whole assembly would have to be keyed to the shaft.  You'd want as much surface area driving this beast as possible.  Wouldn't a single pin hitting in the same spot all the time cause un-due stress and wear at that point?  It would after all have to take the stresses of moving the whole machine.

Don
Thats very possible, the clutch jaw end is about the same size as the actual clutch, just the back end is long and a cylinder rather than short with a slot. Could well be the mould maker looked at the design and said, I have half that pattern already. They did all thier own parts castings. Also, probably easier to mould or machine a short keyway than one in the huge shell. Though, there must be a partial keyway or a full recess in the end shell, to let it slide back a few inches to clear the drive posts. This is a part I wish I could see inside. There is no diagram in the patent papers for this shaft.



I think I will make the small clutch end with a keyway, the large part with a recess to let it slide down. It is the best I can come up with without dismantling the tracks, and the historical society would bury me in the quarry if I tried!


Thanks all!


 :cheers:

Edit:  looking at the pics again, there IS a collar below the clutch piece as well. Maybe they had a keyed clutch end and a stop collar with a set screw? Also could be another place that went through changes as they prototyped it. Just like the track frames, which still have bearing holes for the original patent outboard chain drives.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: J.L. on November 13, 2018, 09:15:18 PM
Chris,
Beyond words. I will have to get a length of cloth to wrap around my head so my jaw won't drop.
John
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 13, 2018, 09:22:50 PM
Chris,
Beyond words. I will have to get a length of cloth to wrap around my head so my jaw won't drop.
John
I use a bungie cord for your dioramas!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 13, 2018, 10:11:13 PM
Sounds like a mutual admiration society kind of thing.--I marvel at what both you guys are doing.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on November 13, 2018, 10:13:18 PM
I think I will make the small clutch end with a keyway, the large part with a recess to let it slide down.

Your solution would probably be the simplest.  When you say the large part, are you talking about what you called the shell?  Why put a recess in it?  Just slide the dog clutch back, pop the key out and slide everything else back - EASIE-PEASIE.  That way you don't take the chance of turning the shell into a paper-weight.  From the picture it looks like the shell might be floating around on the shaft anyway, there is a gap between it and the dog clutch.

When you think about the equipment that they would have had available to build this thing back in the day, it would have been MUCH simpler to use a shaper to machine a keyway into a short-ish dog clutch than it would be to try that same trick on the much longer shell.  There's probably a trapped key somewhere under the dog clutch.  A horizontal mill could have been used to machine the keyway in the shaft.  Vertical mills didn't really come into widespread industry use until the late 30's to early 40's or later, did they?

You don't happen to have any more pictures of that drive shaft do you?  Maybe it's time to send the Ninja elves out on a midnight mission to x-ray this beastie.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 13, 2018, 10:48:35 PM
Don, thats a neat idea. It would save undercutting the big shell, and a snug but not press fit would surely do the job. None of the photos show the internals on the joints, but I will be definitely taking a closer look when I get in to do the Christmas lights. The elves broke thier portable xray machine checking out their presents. Sheesh! 


Thanks for the idea!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 14, 2018, 04:58:57 PM
Quite a snowy day out there today, just a couple inches here, upwards of a foot the other side of town along Lake Ontario (warm lake, onshore breeze, always makes for quick dumps of a lot of snow around here). So, great day to stay in the shops and play!

Finishing up on the outer shells, moved the chuck over to the rotary table and milled in the jaws for the dog to hold it, just like on the main clutch dog on the gear train:
(https://i.postimg.cc/HL3LzSgY/IMG-3835.jpg)
After finishing up both shells to the same point, switched over to the 3-jaw, reversed the part, held the outer end with the live center (the long 'billiard turning' center Sherline has now is handy for reaching over the slide and into recesses), and turned the bead on the large end. Then could smooth the curves at the big end, now that it is away from the chuck.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0N9Q7ThX/IMG-3836.jpg)
Here are the parts so far, trial fit on the model. So far so good!
(https://i.postimg.cc/DZZwMqvq/IMG-3838.jpg)
Next up will be to make the dog and keyways. I think I will put a key on the smaller outer end as well, that will have a lot of torque on it.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on November 14, 2018, 10:57:38 PM
Looking great Chris. You'll have the shovel moving under power in no time.

 I wonder if the original designer of the end bell at the right of the last photo had cleared a drain or toilet recently - it looks like an Oscar-ready version of a plumber's force cup..... :naughty:

(now taking cover)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 14, 2018, 11:07:48 PM
One more tidbit on the drive shaft dog fitting - I have been combing through the thousands of photos I have of the shovel from the different measurement trips I've made, and did find one more detail. Amazing how there is always one more angle that I wish I had taken a picture from.
Here is what the whole assembly looks like in its proper places:
(https://i.postimg.cc/zB5s5X5z/DSC-6955a.jpg)
On the left is the small end of the inboard U-joint shell, to its right is what I have been calling the dog clutch piece, and on its right hand end is the stop collar with a square headed bolt acting as a set screw to hold the collar in position, which holds the other parts up the shaft.
Now, here is a shot of the assembly on the other side of the machine, where the stop collar has slid down the shaft. The inside of the stop collar is round all the way around, just a short cylinder with a big hole in the center. But - here is the new bit, it looks to me like the inside of the dog clutch piece has squared off sides to the hole in the center. Not a symmetric hex like a bolt head, but it looks like they made it a square hole with the corners knocked off:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Px4Bqsrm/DSC-6474a.jpg)
Here is the same picture with the outlines of the hole highlighted in the photo editor (these scaled down images can make it hard to see the details sometimes)
(https://i.postimg.cc/gkN8HMrN/DSC-6474b.jpg)
Unfortunately, I do not have a single photo, of the gazillion I took, looking straight down the slight gap in the dog area! Grrrr!   :facepalm:   Next time out will definitely get that, maybe see if my borescope can see more, at least some photos looking down it to see what that portion of the shaft and fitting looks like.

(https://i.postimg.cc/T13BL7pB/DSC-6476a.jpg)
My best guess now is that the shaft would have one or more keys, protruding flats, or maybe an 8-sided section forged into it that the dog fitting slides on, but round where the u-joint shell is. The stop collar could be released and slid back to allow the dog and shell to slide down enough to install the drive shaft onto the posts on the shaft coming out of the gearbox. Then they would be slid back up the shaft, and the stop collar bolt tightend down to hold it all in place. The flats on the shaft would make the dog turn, which would turn the shell.
For the model, making that 8-sided section would be interesting - think for now I will try it with a removeable key like Don (ddmckee54) suggested. Hopefully I hear back soon on getting access to get the lights put up, will definitely be taking a camera too!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 14, 2018, 11:09:26 PM
Looking great Chris. You'll have the shovel moving under power in no time.

 I wonder if the original designer of the end bell at the right of the last photo had cleared a drain or toilet recently - it looks like an Oscar-ready version of a plumber's force cup..... :naughty:

(now taking cover)
You can stand up again, I agree on that shape!!   :ROFL:   In brass especially, its ready for the bad-movie-of-the-year award at the Oscars!  And the Flushie goes to...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 15, 2018, 02:36:19 PM
Continuing on with the drive shafts, turned the drive dogs (drive dog, thats what I should be calling these ones on the shaft, not clutch dogs!)  to shape, then cut the teeth in them just like before.
(https://i.postimg.cc/gkyXF72q/IMG-3839.jpg)
Then took some 2-56 screws, held in a 3/32 collet in the square holder in the mill vise, and milled the heads square to mimic the originals.

(https://i.postimg.cc/RVx6Ym4Z/IMG-3840.jpg)
An assembly so far:
(https://i.postimg.cc/8z1F1bF8/IMG-3841.jpg)
and where it sits on the model:
(https://i.postimg.cc/DwBSmbsS/IMG-3842.jpg)
Last steps on these shafts will be to make the keys to hold the parts, then some paint...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 16, 2018, 12:47:39 AM
This evening I got the keyways cut - one short one in the center for the drive dog, another longer one at the outboard end for that shell.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Xvfpf3Vt/IMG-3843.jpg)
Then time to do some filing in the shaft holes of those parts to match the key, so far I have both parts on one shaft fitted, will start the other pair tomorrow.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Bv9jPtGx/IMG-3844.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/GmsBpG6L/IMG-3846.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on November 16, 2018, 01:10:11 AM
I think I have it figured out; those tracks are a fair distance apart and to minimize the turning radius of the shovel, twer it mine, I would want to disconnect one side of the axle to avoid over/under driving one of the tracks. Sorta like a tight turn ( not pivot ) on a Cat.....?????

Those parts look huge until you stick your big paws in the picture.. :paranoia:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on November 16, 2018, 01:23:46 AM
No that’s cool Dog looking like you got a handle on it.  :ThumbsUp:


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 16, 2018, 01:29:48 AM
I think I have it figured out; those tracks are a fair distance apart and to minimize the turning radius of the shovel, twer it mine, I would want to disconnect one side of the axle to avoid over/under driving one of the tracks. Sorta like a tight turn ( not pivot ) on a Cat.....?????

Those parts look huge until you stick your big paws in the picture.. :paranoia:

Pete
Hi Pete,
I doubt it - if you run the drive dog down, the end shell moves down too, and then the shaft end falls down on the ground.  Probably several hundred pounds at least of parts to move back into place... Seems like if they wanted to do that, there would have to be another stop collar under the big shell, to let it freewheel but not slide down if the dog was moved, like the center gear clutch does.

The rear tracks can pivot about 20 degrees to the side at most, which would give a fairly tight turn for such a huge and heavy machine. My own belief is that the dog is there to let the parts be assembled in the first place, and then were left that way. Given how well engineered everything else is, if they wanted to disengage one side, they would have put in a control for it, or at least a more robust lever or handwheel on the set screw. But, that opinion is not backed up by any documentation or anything from the time, just my assembling the thing on the bench, and moving that dog down is the only way to do it. The patent papers don't mention anything about driving one side only, and in fact give the option of driving both rear tracks as well as the front from yet another steam engine mounted on the rear axle block.

Seems like if you only drove one track, it probably would not have enough traction to move against any incline or rough surface - the track plates themselves are dead flat and smooth, no ridges on them at all. They were only doing half a mile an hour at top speed, and I doubt they cared about tearing up the ground with a little sliding in a turn like a road vehicle would have to deal with. If they did, they could have added a differential, which existed long before this track system was made in the 1920's. They had over 110 tons of machine to move a few yards to the next bit of digging, I think they needed both driving to move it in most cases.

Sigh. One of these days I'll get a look at a early 20's catalog and see what it says - I think the HCEA has some from that period, but with just one very overworked volunteer researcher there, getting things like this looked up and replied to takes forever and many contacts.

Oh, and for scale, that drive shaft is 3/8" diameter, the paws are way out of scale!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on November 16, 2018, 01:33:23 AM
Yep, I think you're right, Chris. I forgot you'd said the 'rear' tracks would pivot 20*. The 'quick' engagement had to be for assembly purposes...

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 16, 2018, 01:36:20 AM
Yep, I think you're right, Chris. I forgot you'd said the 'rear' tracks would pivot 20*. The 'quick' engagement had to be for assembly purposes...

Pete
:cheers:
And, after all that explanation, guessing, and figuring, someday I'll find some more documentation and find out I am all wet! :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gunna on November 16, 2018, 07:37:37 AM
Those parts look huge until you stick your big paws in the picture.. :paranoia:
Pete
I have to agree with Pete. Sometimes it is hard to envision just what size machine we are looking at. Those shots in your hand bring it all back to scale. Still watching in awe.
Ian.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on November 16, 2018, 12:05:43 PM
What would be interesting to know is how it was used.  Obviously if it just moved forward it would cut a "slot" with a width determined by the boom's swing.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 16, 2018, 12:59:07 PM
What would be interesting to know is how it was used.  Obviously if it just moved forward it would cut a "slot" with a width determined by the boom's swing.
In the catalolgs they have a large section of photos of the shovels in use by customers, and the usage varied all over. There were ones used by the railroads to maintain ditches, they would roll down the tracks taking out the ditch on either side as the advanced in short steps. Others were used to dig canals, digging in front and dumping off to the sides. In quarries, a lot of times they would advance along an embankment taking off a section at a time, or they would clear an area to one level, then ramp down inside that and take the pit deeper, leaving a spiral ramp. Large building foundations could be taken out that way too. Some showed them on wide 'legs' supporting them across a ditch for subways or sewers. There were even special ones with short booms and driven by electricity or compressed air and used to dig tunnels. Every combination imagineable. The tracked versions apparently took over quite quickly from the rail-mounted ones since they were so much more versatile, though rail mounted ones were still made for many years too.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 16, 2018, 01:11:01 PM
A few pictures from one of the catalogs....
(https://i.postimg.cc/kg6f3WtN/Page-003.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/k4cyFckC/Page-073.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/J7pqspNc/Page-074.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Kj8D9T2M/Page-082.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Nj3bgL13/Page-083.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/43pPnZPm/Page-092.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/C5rH9Kh6/Page-095.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/W3jnkKYS/Page-097.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Gh9jGvz0/Page-098.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/vZVLSMp3/Page-102.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/X7hk8XDr/Page-104.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/s2CPkqzy/Page-105.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on November 16, 2018, 01:44:01 PM
Sounds like a mutual admiration society kind of thing.--I marvel at what both you guys are doing.---Brian

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on November 16, 2018, 05:03:17 PM
Chris just posted a couple of pictures that show fairly well how railroad shovels worked, and it's my understanding that's what this thing was originally. 

You lay the rails up to the work-face, run the shovel up to the face and dig until you can't reach any more.  Then you lay more rail and do it over again.

It was never meant to turn on a dime, just follow the rails.  The curves in those rails had a fairly large radius, even in a construction area.  So the angles machined into the tires on the wheels were all the differential that was, and still is, needed by the railroad.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 16, 2018, 07:07:54 PM
Chris just posted a couple of pictures that show fairly well how railroad shovels worked, and it's my understanding that's what this thing was originally. 

You lay the rails up to the work-face, run the shovel up to the face and dig until you can't reach any more.  Then you lay more rail and do it over again.

It was never meant to turn on a dime, just follow the rails.  The curves in those rails had a fairly large radius, even in a construction area.  So the angles machined into the tires on the wheels were all the differential that was, and still is, needed by the railroad.

Don
Great description Don. Yup, this shovel was originally built in 1906 as a rail mounted shovel, then in 1923 it was converted using a 'kit' from Marion to continuous tracks, driven at the front pair and steered with the rear pair. I would imagine that with the tracks they could turn sharper than on rails, but that is a guess.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 16, 2018, 07:14:40 PM
And with a coat of paint (I went with black, that is what the originals had) on the drive sharft parts, and after cleaning out the paint that got into the shaft holes and keyways....
(https://i.postimg.cc/br1CBwzh/IMG-3847.jpg)

A few shots of what it looks like assembled on the model:
(https://i.postimg.cc/FsQnJ3Zs/IMG-3862.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/tTKvkxGk/IMG-3863.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/bNHV0rC0/IMG-3865.jpg)
And as proof that it works (I know it would be asked for), a quick video of the bits turning. The crankshaft is not made, so this was done by turning the hoist drum gear by hand. Once the crankshaft is on, that will reduce the ratio down even more - from crank to track is a little over 20:1 gear reduction.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQM2IQTji3k
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on November 16, 2018, 07:35:50 PM
Hello Chris,

More beautiful workmanship and all the parts look really good moving in the video.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on November 16, 2018, 09:19:25 PM
You may have answered this earlier...

If it's going to be painted, why use expensive brass rather than steel?

Oh yeah...I'm still watching. And your little droppings in other threads have not escaped me either.  ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: sco on November 16, 2018, 09:27:52 PM
I'm still watching too - great work and skills making up the driveshafts Chris.

Simon.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 16, 2018, 10:34:14 PM
You may have answered this earlier...

If it's going to be painted, why use expensive brass rather than steel?

Oh yeah...I'm still watching. And your little droppings in other threads have not escaped me either.  ;D
Thanks guys!




For the outer shells, I have brass bar closer in size than steel, would have had to go up a couple sizes for steel. The brass was easier to shape too, takes the fairing with a file easier. As you say, after painting they look the same. Working with small machines, the 303 is much easier to machine than lots of other steels, so its worth the higher cost to me.


As for cost, its not really all that different for brass vs 303 stainless, especially since I have been buying both as drops from suppliers for the large sizes, buying in lengths around 3' at a time. Since I have been buying more in bulk than just a short bit for a particular part, cost is lower plus I dont remember it as much so I can just pick what I like. Both work just as well for these parts. Besides, I just like cutting brass!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 16, 2018, 11:45:12 PM
If I was rich instead of good looking, I'd make everything out of brass. It is so much nicer to machine than steel. I just called my metal supplier for two 1" thick discs of 6" diameter steel to make flywheels for my newest project, and I dread the thought of hogging out the cavities on both sides between the hub and the rim.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 17, 2018, 12:09:12 AM
If I was rich instead of good looking, I'd make everything out of brass. It is so much nicer to machine than steel. I just called my metal supplier for two 1" thick discs of 6" diameter steel to make flywheels for my newest project, and I dread the thought of hogging out the cavities on both sides between the hub and the rim.
Oh yeah, buying by the inch is a lot more expensive, but not much choice for bar that big around. Buying the 'drops' from commercial suppliers can be 1/3 to 1/4 the normal small bar prices.
Any scrap metal dealers near you that buy scraps/swarf? There are some here that pay by the pound, more for single-metal piles than mixed. Our gun range makes a lot off the .22 brass casings they collect. It could let you recoup at least part of the costs. I got lucky on this build, the income from the Lombard articles in Live Steam magazine is more than paying for the whole thing.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 17, 2018, 12:21:01 AM
Got started on the parts for the brake/clutch bands on the hoist drum - figure if I make those first I'll know if I need to tweek the throw on the levers that actuate them. The throw on the real one is not that much, but on 4' diameter wheels, it does not take much to pull a band tight. Scaled down to model size, its a consideration, may wind up putting in an extra 1/32 or 1/16" of throw to make it pull tight and also realease fully.
The bands are steel, with a wood liner. That way they could replace the wood periodically, and not wear out the metal parts. As I recall from early in this thread, I think it was Locust that someone said was commonly used in this country for this - common tree here, and very tough.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FH4PJfMv/IMG-3866.jpg)
The bands were bent around the bar in the photo to form them. The wood will be some strips of Pear or Cherry, bent using the tool in the left center. It is a heat bending gizmo, made years ago by Mantua for their ship model kits, basically a shaped head on the end of a soldering iron. A instrument-makers bending iron works too. A little water on the wood, press and bend on the tool, and it spot-steams the wood and allows for pretty precise curves.
Oh, for you metal-only folks, this 'wood' stuff is what is inside those 'tree' things in your yard, that have all those flappy little 'leaf' things, and drop branches on your power lines. It can be used to make things - sort of a home-grown aluminum, just in rough-cast form!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 17, 2018, 01:23:40 AM
Cut down some strips of Cherry and Pear, looks like Pear is the winner for a bend this tight. First piece is mostly there, needs to be a little tighter bend. First I need to make a little jig to put it in to set up and dry, otherwise it tends to spring back a bit. Technique is to wet the wood, all four sides, in a short section, then apply it to the hot iron and as it warms you can feel it go more flexible and plastic - pulling on the ends and rocking it will form it over the iron. It takes several applications of more water and heat to get a tight bend, but it works quite well. I am sure Willy will be most familiar with this, from his instrument making days, as its basically how side panels are formed for string instruments (though usually with wider heating forms).
(https://i.postimg.cc/JzzpqwzY/IMG-3867.jpg)
Oh, and the darker patches on the inside of the curve are from the small table saw, blade is going dull and needs to be replaced.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on November 17, 2018, 01:56:13 AM
Dog that is slicker then grease on a slip and slide. Awesome results Chris now did I say ......I ......like...... :Love:


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 17, 2018, 02:39:52 AM
Dog that is slicker then grease on a slip and slide. Awesome results Chris now did I say ......I ......like...... :Love:


 :cheers:
Don
Thanks Don!   :cheers:




We need to start a thread for treat sayings like that one!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on November 17, 2018, 03:55:32 AM
Oh, for you metal-only folks, this 'wood' stuff is what is inside those 'tree' things in your yard, that have all those flappy little 'leaf' things, and drop branches on your power lines. It can be used to make things - sort of a home-grown aluminum, just in rough-cast form!   :Lol:

 :lolb: :lolb:

 :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 17, 2018, 04:09:42 AM
Oh, for you metal-only folks, this 'wood' stuff is what is inside those 'tree' things in your yard, that have all those flappy little 'leaf' things, and drop branches on your power lines. It can be used to make things - sort of a home-grown aluminum, just in rough-cast form!   :Lol:

 :lolb: :lolb:

 :ThumbsUp:
8)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on November 17, 2018, 06:44:00 AM
Continuing to enjoy your build, Chris.  And thanks for the video. Its nice to see it moving every once in a while!

Nice work with the wood too.  How thick is the wood your bending for the break pad?

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 17, 2018, 01:06:44 PM
Continuing to enjoy your build, Chris.  And thanks for the video. Its nice to see it moving every once in a while!

Nice work with the wood too.  How thick is the wood your bending for the break pad?

Kim
The pads are 3/16" thick, 1/4" wide. The rim of hhe drum is just under 3" diameter.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 17, 2018, 03:01:28 PM
A little more bending this morning, and both wood pad strips are to size, and sitting inside the metal bands to dry thoroughly. The way they sit, the inside diameter is slightly more than the OD of the drum rim, which is good - that way they will self-release when tension on them is removed. After they dry, they will be trimmed to length (they will end just before the end of the arc in the bands) JB-welded to the bands. While waiting for that, I will get started on the end fittings for the bands...
(https://i.postimg.cc/SNMhJJXy/IMG-3868.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: scc on November 17, 2018, 03:49:56 PM
GORGEOUS


























 GORGEOUS.............Terry










Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: scc on November 17, 2018, 03:51:17 PM
oops  somat went wrong there!   apologies.     Terrry
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 17, 2018, 09:48:42 PM
oops  somat went wrong there!   apologies.     Terrry
It was very tall applause?  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on November 18, 2018, 03:29:57 AM
You've been working hard Chris, glad to see you've given yourself a couple of brakes......

(Sorry for horrendous pun)

Anyway really liked the drivetrain run video - it works great!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 18, 2018, 03:45:58 AM
You've been working hard Chris, glad to see you've given yourself a couple of brakes......

(Sorry for horrendous pun)

Anyway really liked the drivetrain run video - it works great!


Well, the drive issues were dog-ging me, so in the clutch I had to gear up and train to drive it home...   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on November 18, 2018, 01:42:42 PM
I fear I've unleashed the dreaded pun monster.......  :help:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 18, 2018, 06:24:46 PM
I fear I've unleashed the dreaded pun monster.......  :help:


Muwahahahaaaaa!! 
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 18, 2018, 08:30:41 PM
The brake band is installed:
(https://i.postimg.cc/P5bW769B/IMG-3869.jpg)
One thing I notice is that there is not much grip of the wood liner on the drum edge, especially since the rim is painted. I think I will need to scrape off the paint on the rim, maybe scuff the rim to roughen it and give it some grip. The full size one had several square feet worth of surface area to grab, way more than the model does.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on November 18, 2018, 10:47:56 PM
Wow. Incredible shot.  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on November 18, 2018, 11:17:45 PM
Hi Chris,

I turn my back for a day and when I come back you've done another month's worth of work! And what work!  :praise2: :praise2:

Looking at the brake linings they appear to only touch at a few places, unless it's an optical illusion  :thinking:  Just wondering if you could tape a piece of say 600 grit paper on the drum and rotate it against the wood until it is a closer fit . . . might give it more grip  :shrug:

Brilliant work as always  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 18, 2018, 11:20:35 PM
Hi Chris,

I turn my back for a day and when I come back you've done another month's worth of work! And what work!  :praise2: :praise2:

Looking at the brake linings they appear to only touch at a few places, unless it's an optical illusion  :thinking:  Just wondering if you could tape a piece of say 600 grit paper on the drum and rotate it against the wood until it is a closer fit . . . might give it more grip  :shrug:

Brilliant work as always  :cheers:
There is a little gap when disengaged, as in the photo. Pressing the pedal pulls it down. I will try sanding off the paint, like your idea too.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 18, 2018, 11:20:52 PM
Wow. Incredible shot.  :ThumbsUp:


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 19, 2018, 02:05:54 AM
Tonight was our RC Sub group's monthly winter run at the Y pool, and got my new Delphin one man sub out for sea trials. No issues other than some ballast trim changes, it needed more weight low down and foam up high inside to reduce the rolling in turns, but other than that it performed beautifully. It runs a little over an hour on a battery charge before it starts to slow down. This one is another Dynamic Diver, meaning it needs to be moving to drag it underwater fully with the dive planes. With this pool, which is way heavyhanded with the chlorine salts, we get about 3 to 4 feet down without losing radio signal, other pools and the pond we can go at least twice that.  This one also has something I have not rtied before, an articulated rudder that has a second panel behind the first that swing out farther than the first one, using a simple offset pivot lever (these were invented decades ago, used a lot on tugs and small boats).
Here is the sub:
(https://i.postimg.cc/vBvdGQsL/IMG-1852.jpg)
Sitting on the surface:
(https://i.postimg.cc/G2RC04Zm/IMG-1855.jpg)
And cruising below:
(https://i.postimg.cc/XvdbDf1P/IMG-1860.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/Bnd3gYpD/IMG-1863.jpg)
Here is a side by side shot of the rudder at center and off to one side, you can see that the second panel is at a steeper angle than the first. Both the top and bottom rudders are set up this way. The second panel angle is controlled by the pivot pin off the fin to the left, it rides in a slot since the distance changes a little. It worked quite well, gave good steering response even though the prop is behind the rudders, usually a problem on the subs for tight quarters, but this would turn around in about 10 feet diameter or so.

(https://i.postimg.cc/vZdFxgZL/IMG-3817b.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on November 19, 2018, 09:53:55 AM
Back to the wooden brake bands Chris........needs thinking  :thinking: about....

Were they used and applied to slow movement or lock movement?

Derek

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on November 19, 2018, 12:37:24 PM
Hello Chris,

Super nice looking sub and good photos of it in action. Just for a bit of information, that "style" of rudder was also used on some of the very early Paddle Wheeler steam boats. More often than not, Steam Boats used a "monkey rudder", that being a second rudder placed in front of the Stern Wheel.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 19, 2018, 03:06:48 PM
Back to the wooden brake bands Chris........needs thinking  :thinking: about....

Were they used and applied to slow movement or lock movement?

Derek
Both.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 19, 2018, 03:07:45 PM
Hello Chris,

Super nice looking sub and good photos of it in action. Just for a bit of information, that "style" of rudder was also used on some of the very early Paddle Wheeler steam boats. More often than not, Steam Boats used a "monkey rudder", that being a second rudder placed in front of the Stern Wheel.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Never knew that about the paddle wheelers, neat.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on November 19, 2018, 07:34:57 PM
If you don't get the braking force that you want/need, you might want to think about using multiple brake pad segments instead of one continuous strip like you've got now.  I would think that right now a lot of the braking effort is going into compressing the wood brake lining to a point where it can start gripping the drum.  Multiple segments, with a gap between the segments, would allow you to apply the brakes without first having to compress the wood brake lining. 

I don't know how much braking force you are going to really need, but you are going to want to be able to stop this beast if some thing goes very, very wrong.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 19, 2018, 09:09:35 PM
If you don't get the braking force that you want/need, you might want to think about using multiple brake pad segments instead of one continuous strip like you've got now.  I would think that right now a lot of the braking effort is going into compressing the wood brake lining to a point where it can start gripping the drum.  Multiple segments, with a gap between the segments, would allow you to apply the brakes without first having to compress the wood brake lining. 

I don't know how much braking force you are going to really need, but you are going to want to be able to stop this beast if some thing goes very, very wrong.

Don
Interesting idea. So, I could just make cuts periodically along its length to form the segments (the strip is epoxied to the metal band). Should I make the gaps wide, or is just a slit enough? Are the segments done just to let each grip as much as it can, rather than letting adjacent areas hold it up? I have never done this sort of band before, no idea how the forces are applied. Just looked back in detail at the photos of the real one, and the lining looks like it is made up of curved segments maybe 8 inches long, all butted up against each other, sort of like the cross section of a wood barrel.

All the brake band needs to do is stop the bucket from lowering, it is not there to stop the tracks from moving.
Thanks for any help!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 19, 2018, 09:42:24 PM
If you don't get the braking force that you want/need, you might want to think about using multiple brake pad segments instead of one continuous strip like you've got now.  I would think that right now a lot of the braking effort is going into compressing the wood brake lining to a point where it can start gripping the drum.  Multiple segments, with a gap between the segments, would allow you to apply the brakes without first having to compress the wood brake lining. 

I don't know how much braking force you are going to really need, but you are going to want to be able to stop this beast if some thing goes very, very wrong.

Don
Interesting idea. So, I could just make cuts periodically along its length to form the segments (the strip is epoxied to the metal band). Should I make the gaps wide, or is just a slit enough? Are the segments done just to let each grip as much as it can, rather than letting adjacent areas hold it up? I have never done this sort of band before, no idea how the forces are applied. Just looked back in detail at the photos of the real one, and the lining looks like it is made up of curved segments maybe 8 inches long, all butted up against each other, sort of like the cross section of a wood barrel.

All the brake band needs to do is stop the bucket from lowering, it is not there to stop the tracks from moving.
Thanks for any help!

 :cheers:
Most excellent idea! I just went and made a series of saw cuts about 1/4" apart in the clutch band (which was not installed yet) to test this out. The flexibility of the band as a whole is much higher after the cuts, which should mean it will be able to clamp down and grip with less force needed from the control lever. There were a few of the new segments that popped off (not enough epoxy under them) when I made the cuts, so I had to glue them back on, but it looks very promising. I will pull the brake band off and do the same cuts and see how it behaves before and after.
 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: rspringer on November 19, 2018, 11:19:26 PM
I don't know what kind of leverage you have on the bands.  But I do know that on my donkey (steel band on cast iron drum ) I can hold a 30 lb load with finget pressure on the leaver.  I even oil the surfaces while I lube everything else.  I recommend leaving the band a little stiff, at least enough to not drag.  Band breaks self tighten when engaged.   
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Johnmcc69 on November 19, 2018, 11:20:25 PM
Something else that might improve braking "efficiency" would be to have the leading brake segments contact first & the next one after that & so on successively ...by sanding machining the segments at different thicknesses.
 This would also decrease braking effort on the lever as the brake contact is progressive.

 I set my mountain bike (rim style) brakes at an angle to the rim so I get a progressive type action. (Not parallel to the rim surface...)
 Too much surface contact makes the brakes chatter & "bark".

 Not that it may make a huge difference on a model, just thought I would share it...

 You're doing an outstanding job on this Chris!

 John
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 19, 2018, 11:24:16 PM
I don't know what kind of leverage you have on the bands.  But I do know that on my donkey (steel band on cast iron drum ) I can hold a 30 lb load with finget pressure on the leaver.  I even oil the surfaces while I lube everything else.  I recommend leaving the band a little stiff, at least enough to not drag.  Band breaks self tighten when engaged.   
The brake band doesn't have much leverage, but it just needs to hold the bucket up. The hoist clutch band has a 1.5" lever arm with a steam actuated piston, that should make lots of force for lifting.


I have tried the brake band with the wood cut into segments, working much better now. There is one subfloor connection to the pedal that is slipping, need to fix that next.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 19, 2018, 11:28:08 PM
Something else that might improve braking "efficiency" would be to have the leading brake segments contact first & the next one after that & so on successively ...by sanding machining the segments at different thicknesses.
 This would also decrease braking effort on the lever as the brake contact is progressive.

 I set my mountain bike (rim style) brakes at an angle to the rim so I get a progressive type action. (Not parallel to the rim surface...)
 Too much surface contact makes the brakes chatter & "bark".

 Not that it may make a huge difference on a model, just thought I would share it...

 You're doing an outstanding job on this Chris!

 John
Thanks John. At this size, that may be tough to do, but since my bending is not perfectly circular, may be getting a similar effect at random points.  Once I get the slipping joint on the control rod fixed, I can shine a light through from the side and see which parts contact when. Sounds like there is a lot mire to this setup than I thought!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Mike R on November 20, 2018, 01:09:40 AM

Thanks John. At this size, that may be tough to do, but since my bending is not perfectly circular, may be getting a similar effect at random points.  Once I get the slipping joint on the control rod fixed, I can shine a light through from the side and see which parts contact when. Sounds like there is a lot mire to this setup than I thought!
Its not called model engineering for nothing!  Great job on this!  I'll go back to watching quietly now!
Mike
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 20, 2018, 01:18:13 AM

Thanks John. At this size, that may be tough to do, but since my bending is not perfectly circular, may be getting a similar effect at random points.  Once I get the slipping joint on the control rod fixed, I can shine a light through from the side and see which parts contact when. Sounds like there is a lot mire to this setup than I thought!
Its not called model engineering for nothing!  Great job on this!  I'll go back to watching quietly now!
Mike
No need to be quiet, chime in anytime!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on November 20, 2018, 04:18:24 AM
A number of fundamental errors  :facepalm: creeping in here Chris.......

You answered my question .......the brake is to slow & lock the brake hub......

Concepts of segmentation are totally tangential ......you are not considering any high speed function

The basic braking force is the product of the 'surface area of the brake band in contact x the force applied'

[discounting all of the friction/surface  :hammerbash: variables or non-specifics]

Derek

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Stuart on November 20, 2018, 07:50:46 AM
Chris

My info on wooden brake shoes

When I worked at the iron works many many years ago we had a lot of very old EOT ( electric overhead tratraction ) cranes  the main hoist ( 5 ton ) note ton 2240 pounds not tonne 2200 pounds the two shoes were made of gues what wood ( beech wood )

These were on the motor shaft on a ci drum

They changed the contact area to a woven friction material ( bet it was asbestos) but kept the wooden backing just as I left the firm

Wooden shoes were also fitted to the blast furnace haulage , we are talking big 175 hp dc motors ,but these were only holding brakes the hoist was slowed down with electric control diverters etc to almost a dead stop before the brake came on

So wood is good

Stuart
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 20, 2018, 02:13:14 PM
A number of fundamental errors  :facepalm: creeping in here Chris.......

You answered my question .......the brake is to slow & lock the brake hub......

Concepts of segmentation are totally tangential ......you are not considering any high speed function

The basic braking force is the product of the 'surface area of the brake band in contact x the force applied'

[discounting all of the friction/surface  :hammerbash: variables or non-specifics]

Derek
Segmenting the woid did help quite a bit, on the model, since it let the band bend and hence pull in with less force, probably a factor since it is such a small diameter.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 20, 2018, 05:24:37 PM
Got the brake band retainers on (just some u-shaped bits to keep the band from slipping sideways off the drum rim), and also fixed the slipping joint in the control rod under the floor.
(https://i.postimg.cc/k5bpGkjB/IMG-3870.jpg)
Also have the clutch band ready for final fitting and shaping. The ends are bolted on, and have several holes/slots for adjusting the length to suit the clutch pivots (still to be made). It has also been sawn into segments, again helping the flex of the assembly. Derek is right, the segments dont increase the force applied per se, but they do reduce the thickness of the band assembly, reducing its beam strength, so it bends and forms to the drum rim with much much less force.
(https://i.postimg.cc/k5bpGkjB/IMG-3870.jpg)
I made a short movie clip showing the brank band in action. My hand can be seen in the upper right, pressing and releasing the brake pedal. I started with the bucket wound up to the top, it is just gravity on the empty bucket and dipper boom pulling it down again.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTH6nTKMsW8
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: fumopuc on November 20, 2018, 07:46:38 PM
Hi Chris, always a real pleasure to see your progress.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on November 20, 2018, 10:08:15 PM
That's great Chris!  I can see how segmenting the wood really helped.  That was a pretty good insight ddmckee!  :ThumbsUp:

I love those shots of the brake - just so much going on there.  It looks too cool!   :popcorn:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 20, 2018, 10:15:20 PM
Thanks guys!  Lots of little tweaks, and it all came together and works well. Next is the hoist clutch mechanism, when ch is another new one for me. Its sort of an exploded single cylinder engine, with a piston actuator and a d valve separately mounted down on the floor. Should be an interesting setup.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 21, 2018, 05:48:43 PM
Turned up the post that holds the fixed end of the hoist clutch band, disc at the end to retain the band, then steps down to go inside the end loop, and down again to go through the gear plate. There is a hole at the far end for a cotter to keep it in place.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Cxx4zCnq/IMG-3874.jpg)
And made up the little crank that actuates the band. Looks a lot like a crankshaft from a small wobbler engine, it is silver soldered together. There will be a crank arm bolted onto the other end that will be moved by the steam piston to actuate the clutch.
(https://i.postimg.cc/RZpLf3wb/IMG-3876.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 21, 2018, 08:02:36 PM
After lunch I milled out the actuating lever for the hoist clutch. Drilled the holes in some 303 stainless bar, then bolted it down to the rotary table on a sacrificial bit of aluminum to shape the outside down.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9Qb55Hvj/IMG-3879.jpg)
Here it is test fit on the model. It goes on the other end of the crank arm I made earlier today. The steam actuated piston will push on the outer hole in the arm, the spring loaded return rod that will be next to the piston attaches to the inner hole, to take the tension off the band when steam pressure is removed.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MGGkzrSf/IMG-3880.jpg)
Testing the motion on the band with finger pressure shows this has plenty of grip - there is much more leverage on this linkage than on the brake band. Makes sense, since this band has to transmit the full lifting force from the engine to the hoist chain.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on November 21, 2018, 08:46:52 PM
Chris:

Is there an adjustment on the clutch band to take up any wear?  Or don't you think that the elves will be using this thing that much when they try and dig their way into the mint chocolate chip cookie storage vault?

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 21, 2018, 09:02:08 PM
Chris:

Is there an adjustment on the clutch band to take up any wear?  Or don't you think that the elves will be using this thing that much when they try and dig their way into the mint chocolate chip cookie storage vault?

Don


 :lolb:   hmm, may need to reinforce the vault!!




According to the Marion catalog writeup, the piston on the hoist band has more travel than needed, so as the band wears the piston moves farther till it gets stopped by the pressure on the drum. Sort of like car brakes, the calipers move farther in as the pads wear.  They say this design eliminates need for constant adjustment for wear and temperature expansion like with a purely lever linkage. Clever.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on November 22, 2018, 01:38:33 AM
Stunning progress Chris, always something new to see on this thread.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 22, 2018, 02:19:22 AM
Stunning progress Chris, always something new to see on this thread.  :popcorn:


Thanks Craig!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: J.L. on November 22, 2018, 02:14:39 PM
Chris, you should show those teeth to your dentist!

 I doubt whether he has ever seen ones in such good shape.

John
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 22, 2018, 02:41:14 PM
Chris, you should show those teeth to your dentist!

 I doubt whether he has ever seen ones in such good shape.

John
Mine sure aren't!!


Maybe I can get him to install these as replacements...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on November 23, 2018, 01:12:02 PM
I'm not sure even the famous Irish dentist, Dr. Perry O'Dontal , could install those in a human jaw!  :thinking:

Just kidding. Looking forward to seeing the steam cylinder and spring system evolve for the hoist clutch. I will have to do a similar one for the hoist clutch on the Erie B shovel I plan to build. My main concern is condensation in the tiny plumbing and the steam cylinder when the hoist is not working, and how to get rid of the water at the appropriate time when steam in the cylinder is needed and not water. On one full size Erie shovel I have seen working several times, the hoist cylinder exhaust spewed a lot of condensate before it started getting steam. However the steam piston had some pretty bad ring leakage and spewed a lot of steam when operating too. Don't think it was intended to by the original designers, but they probably didn't anticipate their product built in 1921 would still be working in 2018! 

Have you given any thought to how to get rid of the condensation in your hoist steam cylinder Chris?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: scc on November 23, 2018, 01:39:04 PM
When not fitted with rim brakes the standard system on a traction engine is a series of individual blocks on a contracting brake band. So you are spot on now.... As ever  wonderful work..                Terry
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 23, 2018, 02:07:12 PM
CNR, on the patent for the hoist clutch, they show a drain line running from the dead side of the cylinder back through the hub to keep exhaust and condensate from flinging around the machine room. They had no drain cock on the piston, but mentioned that bliwby past the puston would get out that way, maybe they kept the piston there a slightly loise fit on purpose, since it would not reciprocate like a normal engine? Also, they have a passage in the d valve block on the floor that lets condensate/exhaust drip back down from the piston when disengaged and go through the floor that way.


One thing I have wondered is how much it would matter if there was condensate in a actuator like this, that is more like a hydraulic ram than an engine piston? Pressure is pressure, right? Hmmm...  I will put up a diagram from the patent in a bit...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 23, 2018, 02:08:17 PM
When not fitted with rim brakes the standard system on a traction engine is a series of individual blocks on a contracting brake band. So you are spot on now.... As ever  wonderful work..                Terry
:cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 23, 2018, 02:09:31 PM
Oh, and just got that dentist name! Too early in the day...   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 23, 2018, 02:34:03 PM
Here are the diagrams for the hoist clutch:

(https://i.postimg.cc/jqZyyh9W/US666348_2_-_Hoist_Clutch.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/mkXMRbM3/US666348_1_-_Hoist_Clutch_2.jpg)

In the patent, they describe the system as containing any fluid pressure, not just steam, though it says later steam is preferred. The input pressure is on pipe L, exhaust is by the middle one next to it in the center of the D-valve. They run two pipes up the center of the axle, one pressure, other exhaust. In the position shown by the drawing, the clutch is disengaged, and the pipe to the cylinder is connected to the exhaust, letting any pressure drain back. If the D-valve is moved to the opposite end, the steam would be connected to the piston pipe.


Here is an extract from the patent text:


Steam-pressure is preferably employed,and
obviously there would be leakage of steam
past the piston within the cylinder f-«that
is, steam would leak from the pressure-re
ceiving face of the piston to and between the
piston and the surrounding wall of the cylin
der’s chamber into the said chamber behind
the piston, and the steam thus leaking into
the space behind the piston would, if allowed
its own course, condense and drip out at the
piston-rod bearing end of the cylinder, and
this drip on account of the cylinder revolv
ing with the
wheel d would be thrown off by
centrifugal force in every direction. This
spattering of condensed steam would be a
source of annoyance, especially in freezing
weather. By the provision of the stuffing
box f3 around the piston-rod and the cylin
der’s drain-pipe m connected with the bore
a’ of the shaft the drip or condensed Steam
forming within the cylinder behind the pis-
ton is caused to pass to the end of the shaft,
where the centrifugal force is not sufficient
to throw it off; but the drip is drained at the
end of the shaft and causes no in convenience.
By the use of the bushing n and the collar t'
and a connect-ed pipe the drip can be carried to
any point eutirelyout of the way. We would
remark also that when the spring g forces
the piston back air is sucked in to pipe m, and
consequently into the bore ct’ of the shaft.
'l‘his ingress of airinto the shaft cools the
latter, and consequently cools the boxj, that
affords bearing for the shaft at the outer end
of the hub of the wheel d and formed upon
the stationary framework y". lf steam-pres
sure were employed, pipe h2 would he hot and
heat would radiate to the shaft, and the cir
culation of air around the said pipe within the
shaft will prevent overheating of the shaft.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 23, 2018, 04:14:06 PM
The hoist clutch band is all tweaked in now, working well by hand. I did have to remake the loop at the fixed end since it was rubbing on the rim of the drum. It now comes farther around the pin and up away from the drum:
(https://i.postimg.cc/dVHS0f87/IMG-3881.jpg)
Here is the opposite side, where the piston will go:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Qt560xv5/IMG-3882.jpg)
The piston will bolt to the spoke on the lower left, where the two screws are sticking out now. The piston rod comes out to the right, past the axle, and attaches to the end of the arm in the end hole (see the previous post, first image, for a drawing of how it sits).
And a couple oversall shots of the machinery space so far.

(https://i.postimg.cc/vmCqr62b/IMG-3883.jpg)
The main engine crankshaft is the one sticking out of the side of the thick plate. The engines go from there, and extend down either side of the slew druim support plate, with the cylinder behind that support. The eccentric straps go down the inside of that plate to meet up with the steam chests, which are inboard of the cylinders. Then, the slew engine goes behind all and between all that.

(https://i.postimg.cc/DzSp4cgx/IMG-3884.jpg)
Here is a top-view render of the whole space, showing how the engines tuck around the gear trains - lots o stuff in a small bag!
(https://i.postimg.cc/3Nzx71nz/Marion-91-Top-Inside-View.png)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on November 23, 2018, 04:46:40 PM
Tha is just peachy Dog almost looks like it’s the full size and not a model...... :praise2:



 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 23, 2018, 07:06:11 PM
Thanks Don!

I got out the drawing for the hoist clutch cylinder assembly, to pick stock for it. After a bit more looking at it, I decided that the scaled-down original is just not feasible as drawn to this scale, so I've spent some time in Fusion to draw up a slightly simplified version of it. All will operate as the original, just needed to simplify the outside shape a bit to make it machineable, thicken up a few walls, and make room for bolts to hold the cap plate on. Also relocated the exhaust port to the side, to leave room for a functional input tube - 1:16th sized tubes scaled from 3/8" OD original pipe is just too dang small!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 23, 2018, 09:50:30 PM
Got the blank for the clutch cylinder prepped to size, then set it up in the 4-jaw. It is centered on the narrow axis, offset on the long axis to where the middle of the piston needs to be. There will be a smaller hole on one side for the return spring, and the other side will be the mounting lugs.
(https://i.postimg.cc/jdtbz1Cg/IMG-3885.jpg)
Drilled/bored the hole for the piston to depth. This is a blind hole, the far end is where the steam will be let in, there is no cap on it. The blank was left deep for now, to give room for chucking it up for shaping the outside in one go. The end in the chuck will be trimmed back later.

(https://i.postimg.cc/J4xWKQk1/IMG-3886.jpg)
Moved it over to the rotary table, indicated and moved over to drill the sprint return hole. This hole is through and through the finished part, giving access to the spring adjusting nuts.

(https://i.postimg.cc/JzhCFBNj/IMG-3887.jpg)
Next the rotary table will be remounted vertically so the outside of the part can be shaped...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on November 24, 2018, 01:44:15 AM
Looking great Chris, and thanks for posting the clutch patent dwgs and text. I think I get the gist of it now. I agree doing two scale size pipes for steam and exhaust through the hoist axle would be watchmaking in the extreme!  look forward to watching your progress.  :popcorn:

Also glad you liked the famous dentist's name. Did you know Perry had a cousin who worked with rehab patients? :naughty:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 24, 2018, 02:28:15 AM
Looking great Chris, and thanks for posting the clutch patent dwgs and text. I think I get the gist of it now. I agree doing two scale size pipes for steam and exhaust through the hoist axle would be watchmaking in the extreme!  look forward to watching your progress.  :popcorn:

Also glad you liked the famous dentist's name. Did you know Perry had a cousin who worked with rehab patients? :naughty:
Probably will regret this, but, gotta know his name!   :thinking:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on November 24, 2018, 04:23:38 AM
Why, it's Fizzy O'Therapy, of course.    :facepalm:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 24, 2018, 01:26:24 PM
Why, it's Fizzy O'Therapy, of course.    :facepalm:
:lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 24, 2018, 08:40:39 PM
Today started shaping the outside of the clutch piston blank, set up the rotary table in vertical mode and first notched the one end for the mounting flanges:
(https://i.postimg.cc/C1FtYQPQ/IMG-3888.jpg)
Switched to a larger mill cutter to get the depth needed, and milled in the large end radius in a way similar to how I did the bearing caps - turn the table a few degrees, make an in/out pass, repeat till the whole arc is done. Since the part was centered in the chuck on the piston hole, the arc came out concentric to that.

(https://i.postimg.cc/gJN70H1k/IMG-3890.jpg)
Next turned it till the tangent line to the small end was level, and milled off those faces to taper the part. Took thickness measuremets at the end and on the new side, adjusted the angle until they matched.

(https://i.postimg.cc/2yyKLBfd/IMG-3891.jpg)
Then shifted the part over until the spring return hole was centered in the chuck, and rounded that end off.

(https://i.postimg.cc/j21kHdsp/IMG-3893.jpg)
Here is the part so far - more work to do on the mounting flanges to shape them down to size, but the rounded/tapered parts of the body are complete.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CMrtTJjc/IMG-3896.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on November 24, 2018, 08:44:35 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:

 :cheers:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 24, 2018, 11:57:53 PM
Thanks Pete!

One more session in the shop today, and milled the mounting flanges down to width. This moves the assembly in tighter to the center of the spokes, for clearance to the main frames as it spins around with the gear.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ncPZGgnx/IMG-3897.jpg)
Then turned it around in the chuck, and trimmed off the excess material, along with the little step to the bottom mounting flange.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cLtW9hJn/IMG-3898.jpg)
Also used the same setup to turn/mill the cap piece. This still needs to be drilled for mounting to the cylinder, then drilled for the piston and return spring rods. Fortunately these holes are just for guiding the rods, they are not holding any pressurized steam in, so no need for glands or packing.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QML3R7Bn/IMG-3899.jpg)
More than enough for today, may tackle the drilling tomorrow, though the afternoon looks to be a good time to get my christmas lights up across the front of the house since it will be a gap between snowstorms and much warmer (45 or so, better than the 3 degrees (F) we just had).
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 25, 2018, 07:16:45 PM
After getting the outside lights up this morning, back in the shop for some port drilling on the clutch cylinder. Some careful measuring and layout, got the mounting holes drilled, and ports for the steam line from the hub drilled. The steam comes out of the hub, down a short length of 1/8" tube to the far end mounting lug, then a cross hole into the bottom of the cylinder. The ends of those holes were plugged, and the plugs/tube secured with some Tix soft solder (nice low temp but high strength solder sold for jewelry work, flows into gaps very nicely). Here it is test fit on the gear (it does clear the I-beam next to it when the gear is rotated) :

(https://i.postimg.cc/GhBSSjDv/IMG-3900.jpg)

The tube will be put into the axle hole with some sealant at final assembly. You can see the o-ring in the end of the axle - that is where the steam line will go into the axle, it will come out of the valve block mounted to the floor. The rod at the bottom of the picture is the control rod for the valve, it leads up to one of the hand levers on the control floor up forward.

Next up will be to make the piston and spring rods, and fit the cylinder cover.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 25, 2018, 09:25:39 PM
And one more session for the day, got started on the piston/return rods. First, turned the piston blank slightly undersize for the bore, and used the parting tool to groove in a Viton o-ring. Started a little shallow, then did some trial-and-error deepening the slot a few thou at a time until the o ring was a nice slide fit into the cylinder. Parted off the piston and set up for the rod.

(https://i.postimg.cc/KY9hXDGF/IMG-3901.jpg)
The rod was just a couple thou larger than the drilled hole, and had to take a little off the end to get it so slide into the piston.

(https://i.postimg.cc/wvZKMxRG/IMG-3902.jpg)
I was about to silver solder them together, then decided to try something different and peaned over the end of the rod to lock the piston against the shoulder that was left from turning the end. It snugged it up nice and tight, so am going with that.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rmKXqRs4/IMG-3903.jpg)
Last step was to mount and drill the cap piece. First the cap was clamped to the cylinder, and four mounting holes were drilled/tapped to hold it in place. Then removed the cap, and set up the cylinder in the mill, used the edge finder to center on the openings, one at a time. The cap was screwed in place, then drilled the hole for the rod. Repeated for the other rod. These holes are one size larger than the rods, they are just there to guide the rods, they do not have any steam pressure to hold back so no need for a gland or packing.
Here are the parts so far:
(https://i.postimg.cc/1Xqkqxp5/IMG-3905.jpg)
Next steps are to thread the inner end of the return rod for some nuts/washer to hold the spring in place, and then make and install some short connecting rods to the outer ends of each rod to attach them to the big clutch lever. The short connecting links will take up any side to side movement as the lever pivots. The spring will most likely come from a ball point pen, going to test out some in the drawer to find one with a stronger spring. If that does not work out, either a trip to the hardware store or may wind my own spring.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Admiral_dk on November 25, 2018, 09:28:51 PM
Beautiful job as usual from you  :praise2:

Glad to think that isn't going to rotate at more than a sedated speed under normal operating conditions => think vibrations  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 25, 2018, 09:29:21 PM
Side thought - was this little cylinder an example of an early steam operated solenoid? I normally think of a solenoid as an electrical device, but this actuator is doing the same thing... Add steam (rather than electrons) to push the rod out. Remove steam (or electrons) to let the spring pull it back in....   :thinking:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 25, 2018, 09:31:02 PM
Beautiful job as usual from you  :praise2:

Glad to think that isn't going to rotate at more than a sedated speed under normal operating conditions => think vibrations  :facepalm:
Yeah, I bet it would shake a bit. It does have a large counterweight on the opposite spoke of the gear, like a locomotive driver wheel, but I doubt it was able to balance it enough for many rpms!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on November 25, 2018, 09:33:51 PM
Hello Chris,

That makes a nice looking solenoid and or control cylinder.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: J.L. on November 25, 2018, 10:09:25 PM
Hi Chris,

I really like the photographic licence you took in taking a monochromatic shot looking down on the model in post #2507 on page 168. The famous photographer Karsh often said that when you want to make a statement (he took a lot of portraits) colour gets in the way.

Hopefully you agree and we will see some B&W shots as the project comes together.

Just outstanding work Chris.

John


Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 25, 2018, 10:14:32 PM
Hi Chris,

I really like the photographic licence you took in taking a monochromatic shot looking down on the model in post #2507 on page 168. The famous photographer Karsh often said that when you want to make a statement (he took a lot of portraits) colour gets in the way.

Hopefully you agree and we will see some B&W shots as the project comes together.

Just outstanding work Chris.

John


I cannot take any artistic credit for that b/w shot, its a render from the 3d CAD, model not a photo of the metal model. All the parts in the CAD are defaulted to the same material, so it all is grey.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on November 26, 2018, 12:57:53 PM
The cylinder assembly looks great Chris, well done! As to vibration while the real thing was running, I'm not sure it would be all that noticeable with other things happening during operation. I'm thinking about yards of heavy chain links pounding along iron guides, multiple engines starting and stopping, cast iron  gears meshing, the shovel falling onto rock, the loads of rock crashing into waiting cars, and several tons of frame and structure to damp the shocks. In that context, a cylinder rotating with a gear, causing some vibration, may get lost completely!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 26, 2018, 01:31:36 PM
The cylinder assembly looks great Chris, well done! As to vibration while the real thing was running, I'm not sure it would be all that noticeable with other things happening during operation. I'm thinking about yards of heavy chain links pounding along iron guides, multiple engines starting and stopping, cast iron  gears meshing, the shovel falling onto rock, the loads of rock crashing into waiting cars, and several tons of frame and structure to damp the shocks. In that context, a cylinder rotating with a gear, causing some vibration, may get lost completely!
I think that you are right. Shows how well built they were to last for 40+ years in that quarry!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on November 26, 2018, 05:36:31 PM
Dog that cylinder is cooler then sitting on a block of ice eating ice cream! Just great craftsmanship Chris and .......I..........like......... :Love:



 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 26, 2018, 06:36:39 PM
Dog that cylinder is cooler then sitting on a block of ice eating ice cream! Just great craftsmanship Chris and .......I..........like......... :Love:



 :cheers:
Don
Thanks Don!  We gotta get you to publish a book of sayings!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 26, 2018, 07:21:59 PM
And making up the links for connecting the clutch rods to the actuating lever. Drilled/tapped some 1-72 holes in some bar stock, trimmed to width, and cut off to length. Repeat once...
(https://i.postimg.cc/1XDMtXPM/IMG-3906.jpg)
The ends were filed off a bit rounder...
(https://i.postimg.cc/63kYtnsy/IMG-3907.jpg)
and ready to assemble onto the clutch...
(https://i.postimg.cc/2jW0Tcvv/IMG-3910.jpg)
Next step is to thread the end of the return rod for the nuts to retain the spring, then it will be ready for some paint and assembly onto the model!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on November 26, 2018, 09:16:48 PM
Chris:

From the position of everything in the patent drawing it looks like clutch band is shown in the engaged position with the cylinder pressurized.  If that's true then when the pressure is released it looks like the adjusting nuts will protrude out the back of the spring bore and be out in the open.  Maybe the spring and rod should be long enough to allow spring adjustment in this position?

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 26, 2018, 09:49:46 PM
Chris:

From the position of everything in the patent drawing it looks like clutch band is shown in the engaged position with the cylinder pressurized.  If that's true then when the pressure is released it looks like the adjusting nuts will protrude out the back of the spring bore and be out in the open.  Maybe the spring and rod should be long enough to allow spring adjustment in this position?

Don
Oooh - good catch!
 :cheers: :cheers:
 I just went back and looked at my pics of the real machine, and the adjusting nuts were just outside the end of the spring tube. Makes sense, with them inside, it would be very hard to break loose the lock nut. I had been thinking a socket would fit inside the tube to loosen/tighten them, but that would put a lot of torque on the links at the other end. The nuts/washer are just a bit smaller diameter than the spring, so no worry of the nut catching on the end of the hole as it is drawn in when the clutch is powered up.

The bar I have may be too short no, but that is very quick to re-make, all I have so far is the bar with the end flattened and drilled, have not threaded the other end yet.
Thanks - you just saved a  :zap: moment in a couple of days as I couldn't figure out how to assemble it!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 27, 2018, 07:03:01 PM
Got the return rod remade so it projects just out of the shell as Don suggested (thanks again!), and found a spring that works well. It came from a ball point pen, went through my stash of hardware store springs and took apart several pens, this one is strong enough to pull the lever back without requiring too much force to overcome, which would keep the piston from moving enough.
Then a coat of paint, and a little adhesive sealant on the pipe joint, and it was all installed on the model.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6pbWVhnF/IMG-3916.jpg)
It all operates by hand nicely, but will have to wait for the valve and its piping to be made before I can test it for real. So, the valve block wil be the next part up on the mill...
Also, we have had an early set of snow storms up here, which has delayed getting the christmas lights up on the real shovel. The historical society director has been in touch with the town highway department, and we should have the loan of a couple workers and a cherry picker, which will make the installation go much quicker/safer, plus higher up on the main boom. Due to the early snow, they are way behind with getting leaf pickup done, instead having to clear the roads. So, it may be another week or so - all depends on what the weather does.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on November 27, 2018, 07:56:12 PM
Hello Chris,

As others have noted in the past, some of your photos look like the real (full size) machine. This is a great photo, all it needs is some dirt and grease.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 27, 2018, 08:02:30 PM
Hello Chris,

As others have noted in the past, some of your photos look like the real (full size) machine. This is a great photo, all it needs is some dirt and grease.

Have a great day,
Thomas

Thanks Thomas! 

Though I'll try not to get TOO good at the weathering, will leave out the racoon poop and such...

(https://i.postimg.cc/5tnpP6nH/IMG-1429.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on November 27, 2018, 09:46:56 PM
will leave out the racoon poop and such...

Yup, building that working scale raccoon so you could get the scale raccoon poop MIGHT just be going a little bit over the edge.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 27, 2018, 10:12:08 PM
will leave out the racoon poop and such...

Yup, building that working scale raccoon so you could get the scale raccoon poop MIGHT just be going a little bit over the edge.

Don
:lolb: :ROFL:
Well, its not a raccoon, but we did have this drawing show up last year....
(https://i.postimg.cc/RVBBX7RQ/lepus-mechanica2-en.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 27, 2018, 10:38:53 PM
Well, different types of 'exhaust' aside, just finished redrawing the valve block for the clutch in Fusion. After taking a close look at the original plans, it was obvious that it needed to be scaled up a little to be practical. The original steam lines into it were only about 1/2" OD, and at 1/16th of that they were a bit more like hypo needles than practical steam tubes on the model. So, redrew the block slightly larger. Should be starting on it tomorrow...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on November 28, 2018, 12:02:52 AM
Ah...I missed a few posts.
I'm not sure I'm sorry.  ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 28, 2018, 12:23:11 AM
Ah...I missed a few posts.
I'm not sure I'm sorry.  ;D
Don't be!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 28, 2018, 03:45:47 PM
With all the snow here this past week, some pictures have been floating around. This one should give ideas to those with CNC, looking for mass quantities of parts to mill out...!

And no, this is not from my yard!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 28, 2018, 03:52:32 PM
Started in on the control valve for the hoist clutch this morning. Started with some 1/2" steel bar stock, and milled out the central cavity of the steam chest:
(https://i.postimg.cc/QMWC9spP/IMG-3918.jpg)
and drilled/tapped the holes to hold the lid, also used to mount to the floor underneath:
(https://i.postimg.cc/85Q5L34C/IMG-3919.jpg)
Drilled/tapped a M5 hole in the end for the control rod packing gland - this goes in partway, smaller hole for the rod goes through the wall. Some spun teflon tape or valve packing string will be used to seal the rod. The end was milled back to leave a boss around the hole.

(https://i.postimg.cc/5yf2RCZd/IMG-3920.jpg)
The part so far:
(https://i.postimg.cc/hjLGsrZ1/IMG-3921.jpg)
Next will be to cut the steam ports on the inside, and drill the holes for the pipes on the outside. The bottom will be thinned down, leaving a boss for the exhaust out the bottom.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 28, 2018, 06:58:08 PM
More work on the valve body - chain drilled the slots for the vavle ports, then used a dental bur in a high speed air handpiece to connect the holes. The passages from the sides were drilled in to meet the slots, and the ends of the holes drilled out to .250 to take the steam pipes. The exhaust port goes out the bottom, to drain below the floor, so the center hole in that slot was drilled all the way through the block.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hPbWXyZK/IMG-3922.jpg)
Then moved over to the lathe to turn the boss on the bottom of the block, centered on the exhaust hole. This boss got a shallow .250 hole to take the end of the drain pipe.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Vkfynq2n/IMG-3923.jpg)
The parts so far, ready to make the valve slider and the packing gland.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mg8vwcGq/IMG-3924.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on November 28, 2018, 10:59:02 PM
Hi Chris,
When you say you're using steel for the steam chest, does that mean stainless steel?  I'd think that steel would have a rusting problem when used around steam?
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 28, 2018, 11:19:11 PM
Hi Chris,
When you say you're using steel for the steam chest, does that mean stainless steel?  I'd think that steel would have a rusting problem when used around steam?
Kim
Yes, I use 303 stainless wherever possible, sometimes have to use tool steel, like for thin flat stock when they don't make it in stainless. This alloy machines very nicely and is reasonably resistant to rust, not as good as other stainless alloys but good enough. I have used it for thru hull fittings on my rc subs with no rust.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Chester on November 29, 2018, 07:30:10 AM
Well, seeing as that isn’t your yard, it sure looks like somebody’s elves were enjoying the season!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Firebird on November 29, 2018, 08:17:21 AM
Hi Chris

 :popcornsmall:

Cheers

Rich
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 29, 2018, 06:16:50 PM
Well, seeing as that isn’t your yard, it sure looks like somebody’s elves were enjoying the season!
Thats gotta be the biggest herd of snowmen I've ever seen!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 29, 2018, 06:17:14 PM
Hi Chris

 :popcornsmall:

Cheers

Rich
Hi Rich, nice to have you along for the ride!
Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 29, 2018, 06:26:50 PM
Made up the stuffing gland for the valve control rod out of a bit of hex rod, threaded M5 on one end and drilled through for the control rod.

(https://i.postimg.cc/W1jZ7C1t/IMG-3926.jpg)

And got started on the valve slider - this looks like a standard D-valve slider, just is a little shorter since there are only two ports to go over - the output and the exhaust. The input port at the end just fills the steam chest. The slider was milled on the end of a offcut of bronze left over from one of the bearings. Milled to outside shape, then a recess milled in on the bottom to connect the two ports.

(https://i.postimg.cc/fRK9qCVC/IMG-3927.jpg)

Drilled through above the recess for the control rod and the adjusting nut - these holes form the bottom of the slots. Did it this way since I do not have any end mills down this small.

(https://i.postimg.cc/vm26bmL6/IMG-3929.jpg)

Got out the air-powered rotary tool and a small dental burr, and squared up the recess opening and opened up the tops of the slot. This was done freehand with a strong magnifier.

(https://i.postimg.cc/zBLHB102/IMG-3930.jpg)

Test fit of the slider in the steam chest - slot is good depth, think I will need to file a touch off the end of the slider to get proper flow on the ports.

(https://i.postimg.cc/FKHJMSc4/IMG-3931.jpg)

The slider so far:

(https://i.postimg.cc/63strJBm/IMG-3933.jpg)

Time to make the control rod and the adjusting nut...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on November 29, 2018, 06:55:32 PM
Finer than a frog hair split four ways. I am almost as good as Don  :lolb:

Whiskey
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 29, 2018, 07:12:00 PM
Finer than a frog hair split four ways. I am almost as good as Don  :lolb:

Whiskey
Dang, dog!    :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on November 29, 2018, 08:41:12 PM
That's some watchmaking style machining, right there. Parts look great! :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 30, 2018, 01:44:07 AM
That's some watchmaking style machining, right there. Parts look great! :popcorn:


Hopefully it will tick over nicely and not get all wound up!   :Lol:


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on November 30, 2018, 02:40:59 AM
GROAN


 :lolb:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 30, 2018, 07:55:02 PM
GROAN


 :lolb:

Pete

 8)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 30, 2018, 07:56:32 PM
Not much shop time today (mothers birthday!), but I did make up the control rod and the adjusting nut for the slide valve on the clutch.
(https://i.postimg.cc/y6ct0wbw/IMG-3934.jpg)
Next I need to decide on the best way to womp up a batch of small (for 1/8" OD tube) elbows.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on November 30, 2018, 09:34:31 PM
The best way to whomp up a batch of 1/8"OD elbows, I assume we're talking about one of those it looks like a threaded fitting type elbow?
Are you planning on threading the fitting onto the tube, or just soldering the straight tube onto the elbow?

The following is listed in depth of pocket order, from deepest to shallowest:
1 - Pay somebody else to do it.
2 - Pay somebody else to cast the blanks, and you machine the fiddly little suckers.  1'8" OD is not going to leave a lot of room for BOO-BOO's, better order 25-50% extra.  Who knows, if they don't come get you with one of those jackets that's all sleeves and zippers, you might even be able to SELL these things.
3 - Carve the patterns, cast the blanks, and you machine the fiddly little suckers.  You already know how fiddly they are going to be.
4 - Carve EACH and every one out of billet, you'll be WISHING you were making Lombard tracks again.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 30, 2018, 10:28:46 PM
Hi Don,


Great list!


These small ones will just be soldered on, can look like common house plumbing elbows. The large pipes to the engines later on will be more of the flange type. I am probably heading to option 4, fortunately only 5 or 6 are needed. Probably will start with a length of flat bar, drill the holes down the side for the holes on one leg of each, and can mill out the excess between, leaving square posts with hole sticking out of the bar. Saw them apart, and make a little holding jig for the mill vise to drill the other legs. Then the tricky bit, rounding the legs. Jig in the lathe or rotab. That will leave the outside corner, which can be done one the sander. Bunch of steps, but all simple. I hope.


And I had fun doing the tracks and chains! Call me crazy.


Go ahead.


I'll wait...


Yup!   :insane:


I have no equipment or skills in casting, and its a lot more fun for me to make than buy them. It will be good practice for the bigger flanged ones later, which may be done like Kozo shows, as two pieces socketed and silver soldered at the elbow.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on November 30, 2018, 10:39:49 PM
Geesh...I'm gone just a couple of days and there always seems a week's worth of work (play) to catch up on.

 ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on November 30, 2018, 10:55:54 PM
Geesh...I'm gone just a couple of days and there always seems a week's worth of work (play) to catch up on.

 ;D


You just keep hoping I have started the Stanley engine!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on November 30, 2018, 11:26:02 PM
Geesh...I'm gone just a couple of days and there always seems a week's worth of work (play) to catch up on.

 ;D


You just keep hoping I have started the Stanley engine!


 :cheers:

 :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on December 01, 2018, 12:32:37 AM
Chris, I remember in one of Kozo's books , maybe the Heisler one, he made several elbows by machining round bronze pieces to simulate the pipe and collar or flange, then mitred the ends, butted the mitres together at 90 degrees, and silver soldered the parts. After soldering he filed the excess off the outside corner and the silver solder formed a nice radius on the inside corner. After painting they looked just like a casting like the original would have been. It looked like minimal drill / cutter cleanup was needed inside the passageway of the elbow. I recall he left extra length on the pipe components to fixture the parts in a block with two V grooves at 90 degrees for soldering. This will work for any size elbow I think. Really big ones might need an extra middle segment and be mitred with 22 1/2 degree angles. Only mentioning it as food for thought for making your elbows. Hope it's useful.

One key tip about making elbows (or other parts) would be not to bend your own elbow too much beforehand...... :DrinkPint:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 01, 2018, 12:51:18 AM
Chris, I remember in one of Kozo's books , maybe the Heisler one, he made several elbows by machining round bronze pieces to simulate the pipe and collar or flange, then mitred the ends, butted the mitres together at 90 degrees, and silver soldered the parts. After soldering he filed the excess off the outside corner and the silver solder formed a nice radius on the inside corner. After painting they looked just like a casting like the original would have been. It looked like minimal drill / cutter cleanup was needed inside the passageway of the elbow. I recall he left extra length on the pipe components to fixture the parts in a block with two V grooves at 90 degrees for soldering. This will work for any size elbow I think. Really big ones might need an extra middle segment and be mitred with 22 1/2 degree angles. Only mentioning it as food for thought for making your elbows. Hope it's useful.

One key tip about making elbows (or other parts) would be not to bend your own elbow too much beforehand...... :DrinkPint:
I'll have to get out his books again. I remember him showing a way where one leg was trurned to shape, and a end mill plunge cut halfway in to take the other leg. Niether had a miter. That was in the New Shay book, have to check the others too... Thanks for the tip.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 01, 2018, 01:20:11 AM
I don't have the heisler book, but found what sounds like the same thing in the two shay books. That is what I was thinking of using for the larger elbows, think for these simple little ones that I would try them out of one piece. Can always revert to his way if it doesn't work out.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 01, 2018, 08:05:47 PM
Here goes the experiment in making up the small elbows for the hoist clutch. These are simple ones, no flanges or threads, will be soldered in place, like the typical house plumbing elbows. I made up a little holding jig from some square steel bar, milled a slot in one end to take the bar stock, and put in two screws - one right through to act as a stop for the stock (no way to mill a square bottomed/ended slot), and one through one side to hold the stock in place.
Then centered it up on the lathe using a dial indicator, adjusting until the two wide sides and one narrow side were all equidistant from center. That way I can drill/turn the parts and know the holes will be centered on the legs of the elbow (arms, I guess?, otherwise it would be a knee. Yes, centered on the arms).
(https://i.postimg.cc/4NQ3KkxN/IMG-3935.jpg)
Then cycled through all the parts, center drilling then drilling the passage through to the meeting point in the center of the elbow joint. It is very quick and repeatable to pop the parts in and out with the holding screw, so it was fastest to center drill the ends of the arms, then come back and drill all of them, rather than putting the drill in and out every time. Also, once the depth of drilling was known, I could just count handwheel turns on each part since the drill was always in the same starting spot.
(https://i.postimg.cc/dtY1ttvx/IMG-3936.jpg)
One more pass through the parts to counterbore the ends out to the size of the tubing, in this case 1/8". These holes just went .100" in, enough to hold for soldering but not so far that rounding the inner corner later will be a problem.
(https://i.postimg.cc/2SjShc1d/IMG-3937.jpg)
Then started turning the ends round, first on one arm:
(https://i.postimg.cc/qvmMLsKP/IMG-3938.jpg)
Then on the other arm:
(https://i.postimg.cc/JhG7dscG/IMG-3939.jpg)
Here is the first part up to that point, test fit with some tube:
(https://i.postimg.cc/N0SGhQpb/IMG-3941.jpg)
So far it is working out very quickly, less than an hour to make up 10 elbows (more than needed for this clutch, but wanted a couple spares and they will come in handy at some point). The last step will be to round the corners off of the elbow joint - will do the outside on the belt sander, and the inside with the rotary tool. Assuming that all works, it has worked out much faster and with much less stock than Kozo's way of piecing it up, but he was usually doing much more complex ends on his. For the larger parts I need to do for the engines, with flanges and whatnot, I will likely do it the Kozo way, since I think the flange overhangs will preclude this method.
More later after some sanding....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on December 01, 2018, 09:05:33 PM
Hello Chris,

That is slicker than a cat's meow.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 01, 2018, 09:19:46 PM
Thanks Thomas!
And a few minutes at the belt sander, the elbow sections are rounded off. Turned out that aa light touch on the edge of the belt to the inside corner smoothed off that part as well, so no need for the rotary tool:
(https://i.postimg.cc/PxNj59FJ/IMG-3942.jpg)
So, about an hour to make the jig and the parts, worked out very well, very happy with them!

Next up will be to cut down the tubing sections, and start soldering things together. Going to just soft solder the piping, it won't be anywhere near the flame on the boiler. I do need to test solder on the stainless steel, as I recall the Tix at least works with it, forget if the regular stuff does, but I want to be sure before committing. I can always silver solder the stubs into the valve block, and soft solder everything else.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on December 01, 2018, 11:10:26 PM
Very nice and I love your fixture. Ya know, flanges could be machined on those elbows by using larger material to start. It would take a bit more work but the flange back sides can be cut in with a parting tool. I'm filing this away for future use...

I'd make the radius on the outside of the elbow larger, using the inside corner as the center point. That's just me.  :insane:

You're really moving this along.

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 01, 2018, 11:35:18 PM
Very nice and I love your fixture. Ya know, flanges could be machined on those elbows by using larger material to start. It would take a bit more work but the flange back sides can be cut in with a parting tool. I'm filing this away for future use...

I'd make the radius on the outside of the elbow larger, using the inside corner as the center point. That's just me.  :insane:

You're really moving this along.

Pete
I think you are right about the back corner, its too sharp. I should be able to take them back a bit more without breaking through to the passage, worth a try on one to see.


For the flanges, seems like they would block getting as far to the inside corner of the opposite arm. I am thinking of turning a shoulder into the end of the arm, and silver soldering on a disc for the flange, that could solve the issue for the larger ones that have a bolt flange at the joints. Worth some experimenting...   :thinking:




 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 01, 2018, 11:49:25 PM
Very nice and I love your fixture. Ya know, flanges could be machined on those elbows by using larger material to start. It would take a bit more work but the flange back sides can be cut in with a parting tool. I'm filing this away for future use...

I'd make the radius on the outside of the elbow larger, using the inside corner as the center point. That's just me.  :insane:

You're really moving this along.

Pete
I think you are right about the back corner, its too sharp. I should be able to take them back a bit more without breaking through to the passage, worth a try on one to see.


For the flanges, seems like they would block getting as far to the inside corner of the opposite arm. I am thinking of turning a shoulder into the end of the arm, and silver soldering on a disc for the flange, that could solve the issue for the larger ones that have a bolt flange at the joints. Worth some experimenting...   :thinking:




 :cheers:
Pete, gave one a try, liked it so much I did the rest. I could not take it to much more of a radius without hitting the passage since the walls are pretty thin already, but it definitely looks better. Thanks!
(https://i.postimg.cc/4xsLbMR3/IMG-3943.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on December 02, 2018, 02:54:58 PM
How did you get the original two elbows to multiply? Dark room nice music and  :wine1: maybe?

Just kidding, great job on them! I also find it fun, or at least, very satisfying doing multiple parts of something once a method and fixtures order of ops etc are worked out.

Your method is certainly less work than Kozo's built up method for complex ones and I'll keep it in mind for similar elbows I will need to do for the Erie B-2 shovel.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 02, 2018, 03:22:45 PM
How did you get the original two elbows to multiply? Dark room nice music and  :wine1: maybe?

Just kidding, great job on them! I also find it fun, or at least, very satisfying doing multiple parts of something once a method and fixtures order of ops etc are worked out.

Your method is certainly less work than Kozo's built up method for complex ones and I'll keep it in mind for similar elbows I will need to do for the Erie B-2 shovel.
Made them out of Rabbit metal and put them in a dark corner...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 02, 2018, 04:22:02 PM
Got the connecting pipes and bracket made up and soldered on:
(https://i.postimg.cc/MHX1QSFf/IMG-3945.jpg)
Almost had a major brain fart - initially made the middle pipe too long, and when test fitting on the model fortunately noticed that it would have put the valve block into the hoist engine flywheel. Shortened that up, and started fitting it to the model. Marked out and drilled the hole for the drain line under the valve block, then with everything held in place drilled for the mounting screws. The little Proxxon drill press is very handy for these holes, can take it to the model rather than trying to move the model to the machine.
(https://i.postimg.cc/J0gZ32f6/IMG-3946.jpg)
Next I will get the mounting holes in the floor tapped, and get the control rod fitted up to connect to the hand lever up front. Then I can rig up a temporary connection to the compressor, and finally test out the clutch!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 03, 2018, 09:49:32 PM
Well, one step forward, couple back....

I got the valve hooked up, made a temp fitting for the compressor connection, and gave it a try. Just hooking it up pointed out some flaws in pipes hitting the control rod, and several air leaks showed that the way I soldered in the pipes to the valve body was not sturdy enough, and the way I milled the body out of one piece meant that I could not lap the valve surface, so it is a little rough and the slider leaks.
 :thinking:
So, going to redesign and remake the valve body - two piece like a normal engine steam chest onto the valve face (plus lid), and going to reroute and deepen the pipe counterbores plus will silver solder things together this time. Also the flange that holds the pipe into the end of the axle needs a tweak so I can get at the bolt into the floor easier.

Not a big setback, as they go, and it will make the parts much more robust. Good part is that the clutch worked, aside from having to crank up the air flow due to the leaks.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 03, 2018, 10:08:36 PM
So, about an hour to make the jig and the parts, worked out very well, very happy with them!

A little math...

Given:

a) About an hour to make the jig and the parts
b) 1st post was October 2017
c) My rate is about 10xChris (at least!)

'a' and 'c' means about 10 times 1 hour = 1 week
'b' and 'c' means about 10 times 1 year = my lifetime

If you disagree with the math...keep in mind the 10x multiplier is a zee multiplier and hence completely bogus.

Now back to that word problem involving two trains speeding towards each other.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 03, 2018, 10:11:25 PM
So, about an hour to make the jig and the parts, worked out very well, very happy with them!

A little math...

Given:

a) About an hour to make the jig and the parts
b) 1st post was October 2017
c) My rate is about 10xChris (at least!)

'a' and 'c' means about 10 times 1 hour = 1 week
'b' and 'c' means about 10 times 1 year = my lifetime

If you disagree with the math...keep in mind the 10x multiplier is a zee multiplier and hence completely bogus.

Now back to that word problem involving two trains speeding towards each other.
:ROFL:
You are not taking into account that you are in that silly 24-hour-per-day universe, while I side-slipped into one with many more hours per day. Or more shop elves per furlong. Something like that. Hard to keep track...


And are the trains steam or diesel? Only makes a difference when they meet on the same track...
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 03, 2018, 10:17:26 PM
So, about an hour to make the jig and the parts, worked out very well, very happy with them!

A little math...

Given:

a) About an hour to make the jig and the parts
b) 1st post was October 2017
c) My rate is about 10xChris (at least!)

'a' and 'c' means about 10 times 1 hour = 1 week
'b' and 'c' means about 10 times 1 year = my lifetime

If you disagree with the math...keep in mind the 10x multiplier is a zee multiplier and hence completely bogus.

Now back to that word problem involving two trains speeding towards each other.
:ROFL:
You are not taking into account that you are in that silly 24-hour-per-day universe, while I side-slipped into one with many more hours per day. Or more shop elves per furlong. Something like that. Hard to keep track...


And are the trains steam or diesel? Only makes a difference when they meet on the same track...
 :cheers:

True enough. Lately I've been living in a 6 hour day. Up at 9. Coffee. Playing on the computer. More coffee. More putzing around. More coffee. Then it's 11. And then at 5 it's stinking hoppie time.
Unfortunately, between 11 and 5 it's usually more coffee and putzing.

If it means anything...today I drilled and tapped 10 holes. And there you go. 10 drilled/tapped holes in 6 hours providing proof evidence of my math.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 04, 2018, 05:50:07 PM
And on to Hoist Clutch Valve Body Mk-II...
The new version has been drawn up in Fusion, and the new two-piece valve body cut to outside shape and the center milled out of the upper block.
(https://i.postimg.cc/c4X1ZVbz/IMG-3953.jpg)
Next will be to cut the ports and passages, and get the piping made up. This one is a simpler design, should seal up better with the port face able to be lapped on a flat plate.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 04, 2018, 07:50:06 PM
Chain drilled the port slots, and drilled the inlet/outlet passages which were also counterbored to take the ends of the pipes.
(https://i.postimg.cc/qB8mSr58/IMG-3955.jpg)
Then a couple minutes with the air handpiece and dental bur to connect the chain drilled holes and square up the ends of the slots. The valve face was then lapped on a pair of diamond plates, finished with some diamond lapping compound on a flat plate (I was taught to use these methods to sharpen wood chisels/planes by a master boatbuilder years ago - makes for a razor edge). The final step with the finer lapping compound had to be skipped since that tube dried out from old age, and the replacement has not arrived yet. Still, quite a good finish on it as is - when starting to lap the surface it quickly showed how un-flat the side of a piece of rolled steel is, the sides were higher, the center lower, and the surface had lots of little micro-pinholes in it. So, took it down past those imperfections, and it SHOULD be a good seal with the valve slider.

(https://i.postimg.cc/L6Dx4TR5/IMG-3957.jpg)
Here are the parts so far:
(https://i.postimg.cc/YqMXwP5T/IMG-3958.jpg)
Next step is to drill/counterbore/tap the hole for the control rod in the end of the steam chest, then get the steam pipes soldered in to the base plate. Also need to make the new flange plate that takes the steam up to the axle of the hoist drum.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 05, 2018, 06:05:27 PM
Pipes fitted and silver soldered in place, just need to plug the ends of the passages and get the control rod bushing drilled/tapped into the steam chest...
(https://i.postimg.cc/9FJFJS5c/IMG-3960.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 05, 2018, 06:57:52 PM
Control rod bushing drilled/tapped, everything is moving smoothly, and it passes a low-pressure (blowing in inlet pipe) leak test with valve closed, can hear air through with it open, so on to making the gaskets for the steam chest...
(https://i.postimg.cc/529ckN5r/IMG-3962.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 06, 2018, 02:54:58 PM
And we have liftoff! Well, hold-down? Anyway, the new clutch valve is in and working well. I made up the paper gaskets for the steam chest this morning, and got everything installed. Still a little bit of an air leak around the pipe that goes into the axle, but I kind of expected that since there is no compression fitting on the o-ring (it would take up room on the outside of the axle that I dont want to use), and it works quite well as is.
Here is a short video of it in action - you can see the clutch piston moving the lever over at the right when the control lever is thrown, and the bucket moving up on the left as the gear is turned.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASkFAlRMbvU
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on December 06, 2018, 03:01:44 PM
Hello Chris,

That is cool. :praise2: Sure is neat to see a device like that scaled down and working..good job.  :ThumbsUp:

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 06, 2018, 03:10:22 PM
Hello Chris,

That is cool. :praise2: Sure is neat to see a device like that scaled down and working..good job.  :ThumbsUp:

Have a great day,
Thomas
Yeah, it was a big relief when this worked, its a critical function and I've never tried anything like this before. The other tricky one coming up will be the slew/crowd engines, they have a very different style valving to them and are fairly small. Then the steering engine, which is identical but 1/3rd smaller than those two! Next up will be the hoist engine, that is pretty standard aside from the fact that the two cylinders are not directly connected to each other, but bolt to the floor either side of the gear train (common crankshaft) so alignment will be interesting.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 06, 2018, 09:15:29 PM
Turns out the air leak was not at the axle but one of the joints near it. Solved that, now now hissing sound!


 8)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 06, 2018, 09:46:55 PM
Yeah, it was a big relief when this worked

 :ThumbsUp: I expect a few cookies were had in celebration.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 06, 2018, 09:50:41 PM
Yeah, it was a big relief when this worked

 :ThumbsUp: I expect a few cookies were had in celebration.


There will be some munched contentedly soon, the shop elves beat me to the cupboard and ate them all, had to get more out of the stash in the freezer, waiting for them to warm up...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gary.a.ayres on December 06, 2018, 10:11:30 PM
That is formidable!

 :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 07, 2018, 12:14:54 AM
Yeah, it was a big relief when this worked

 :ThumbsUp: I expect a few cookies were had in celebration.


There will be some munched contentedly soon, the shop elves beat me to the cupboard and ate them all, had to get more out of the stash in the freezer, waiting for them to warm up...
Mmmmmm.,..  took some back in the shop to sit and admire the project....  Munch munch  mmmmmm...


Buurp...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on December 07, 2018, 12:37:22 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 07, 2018, 12:48:35 AM
Thanks guys!


Next up will, finally, after over a year, be the main hoist steam engine!  No castings to fondle, so got the plans for it printed out to drool over. Original is a two cylinder engine, 12" bore, 16" stroke, with reversing gear. They used a short straight version of a typical Stephenson linkage, which saves space at the expense of no adjustment for lead and cutoff, but they only did short runs so that was not needed, just full power starts and runs for a few seconds. It looks a lot like a mill engine, but split to sit either side of the gear train. I am going to start with the crank discs and eccentrics and work towards the cylinders from there. Not tomorrow though, am taking my mother out Christmas tree hunting instead. Hmm... Will need a mini one for the shop elves too...


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on December 07, 2018, 01:27:37 AM
Dog just another chicken for the licking. That’s is just peachy Chris and very nice work.

 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on December 07, 2018, 06:57:06 AM
Just very cool, Chris!  And you found the little leak to boot!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Way to go.  You earned your cookies today!  :Lol:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gbritnell on December 07, 2018, 12:05:10 PM
Still following Chris and enjoying every minute.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 07, 2018, 07:16:07 PM
Thanks guys, no shop time for me today, but the shop elves got hold of one of the strings of lights intended for the real shovel (still waiting on acess over there, the snow storms we have had here messed up everyones plans) and started decorating their model with them, and some trimmings from my tree....
(https://i.postimg.cc/pX6xgqzD/IMG-3964.jpg)
Be interesting to see how it looks tonight after it gets dark outside...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on December 07, 2018, 10:47:54 PM
Hi Chris,
 Nice work on the engine! Well deserved cookies!

How come the elves are taking time off the build? They protesting no cookies?

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 07, 2018, 11:20:49 PM
Hi Chris,
 Nice work on the engine! Well deserved cookies!

How come the elves are taking time off the build? They protesting no cookies?

Cheers Kerrin


They have winter vacation time in thier contract!  Tough union, Electrical, Lathe & Fabrication (ELF) local 12-25...   :Lol:


Plus they knew I was off tree hunting today so they grabbed the cookie bag and York peppermints and did some decorating. With all the great work lately its well deserved.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on December 07, 2018, 11:28:58 PM
 :lolb: :lolb:

Love it! I’m having a down time day today....catching up on what’s happening here.......see Zees thread.

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on December 08, 2018, 12:41:33 AM
Good heavens! what's that green prickly thing attacking Bucket Bob there? Looks like a Star Trek episode!  :ROFL:

Loved the clutch test video Chris, it works great. Even has that realistic clanking chain noise. Well done!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 08, 2018, 01:32:10 AM
Good heavens! what's that green prickly thing attacking Bucket Bob there? Looks like a Star Trek episode!  :ROFL:

Loved the clutch test video Chris, it works great. Even has that realistic clanking chain noise. Well done!
Thats the dreaded DougFir Monster!  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on December 08, 2018, 02:21:39 AM
That's from a white fir, or true fir, not a Douglas fir. DF is actually a larch and has different needle structure than white fir...

Beautiful none the less!

"Bucket Bob"... I love the name. He's the guy that rides the boom, right? And dumps the bucket? And I would guess that the other guy is "Hoister Harry".....

I'm tired....   :lolb:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 08, 2018, 02:48:06 AM
That's from a white fir, or true fir, not a Douglas fir. DF is actually a larch and has different needle structure than white fir...

Beautiful none the less!

"Bucket Bob"... I love the name. He's the guy that rides the boom, right? And dumps the bucket? And I would guess that the other guy is "Hoister Harry".....

I'm tired....   :lolb:

Pete
Actually I think it is a Frasier Fir, which I think is a recent hybrid that got popular (not Poplar) around here recently. That tree farm has Douglass and Frasiers, no White firs. What Fir? Dunno!    :Jester:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on December 08, 2018, 04:10:10 AM
I only saw two guys in the video, but by the sound of it there are tree guys here..... :thinking:

(sorry)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ozzie46 on December 08, 2018, 06:19:49 PM
Still open mouthed astonished at this build!!

By the by I noticed the dirt devil style vacuum, how do you like it? I'm interested in one for my shop as I do some wood work also.

Ron
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 08, 2018, 07:09:22 PM
Still open mouthed astonished at this build!!

By the by I noticed the dirt devil style vacuum, how do you like it? I'm interested in one for my shop as I do some wood work also.

Ron
Hi Ron, glad you are along for the ride!

That vac setup is a small shop-vac with a Dust Deputy collector on the side - it is a cyclonic seperator that goes inline with the vac hose, seperates out all the dust and metal swarf and drops it in a 5 gallon bucket. It works amazingly well, barely anything makes it to the shop vac itself, usually only when the bucket fills up, or if something like a tissue gets sucked in. I have that one in the metal shop, and another up in my wood shop - even fine wood dust gets caught in the bucket, saving having to clean or replace those stupid filters on the vac itself. They are a little pricey, but I think well worth it in the long run. I bolted a bucket on the side of the vac, with casters underneath, and a second bucket sits in that to collect the dust. The Dust Deputy bolts to the bucket lid - a piece of plywood is needed to stiffen the lid, or the vacuum tends to collapse it. I think the only issue I get is if there are long curly strings of shavings from the lathe, they tend to clog in the vac hose with all its ribs, so I try and collect those up by hand first then vac out the rest of the chips. The dust deputy is available through several of the catalog outlets (Klingspor, that sort of place), or direct from the manufacturer. They have a kit that includes the buckets and such, but those are cheap from the home centers. You will need a second short hose to go from the unit to the vacuum.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 08, 2018, 07:10:23 PM
I only saw two guys in the video, but by the sound of it there are tree guys here..... :thinking:

(sorry)
Pun Police! Over there!  (trying to distract them so I dont get picked up too...)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 08, 2018, 09:32:31 PM
Okay, I think I have the modifications to the plans for the hoist engine done - tweaked some of the dimensions on the eccentrics and followers to get them closer to stock sizes and make stock size bolts fit better. The original plans were the direct 1:16 scale from full size, and like the clutch valve there were a few dimensions that were just too small for operational strength at the model size - slight changes to wall thicknesses, should still look proportional though.

So, probably back in the shop tomorrow for some engine parts! I think I will start with the crank discs, then work on the eccentrics.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ozzie46 on December 09, 2018, 02:35:13 PM
Still open mouthed astonished at this build!!

By the by I noticed the dirt devil style vacuum, how do you like it? I'm interested in one for my shop as I do some wood work also.

Ron
Hi Ron, glad you are along for the ride!

That vac setup is a small shop-vac with a Dust Deputy collector on the side - it is a cyclonic seperator that goes inline with the vac hose, seperates out all the dust and metal swarf and drops it in a 5 gallon bucket. It works amazingly well, barely anything makes it to the shop vac itself, usually only when the bucket fills up, or if something like a tissue gets sucked in. I have that one in the metal shop, and another up in my wood shop - even fine wood dust gets caught in the bucket, saving having to clean or replace those stupid filters on the vac itself. They are a little pricey, but I think well worth it in the long run. I bolted a bucket on the side of the vac, with casters underneath, and a second bucket sits in that to collect the dust. The Dust Deputy bolts to the bucket lid - a piece of plywood is needed to stiffen the lid, or the vacuum tends to collapse it. I think the only issue I get is if there are long curly strings of shavings from the lathe, they tend to clog in the vac hose with all its ribs, so I try and collect those up by hand first then vac out the rest of the chips. The dust deputy is available through several of the catalog outlets (Klingspor, that sort of place), or direct from the manufacturer. They have a kit that includes the buckets and such, but those are cheap from the home centers. You will need a second short hose to go from the unit to the vacuum.


Thanks, that a great help.

Ron
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 09, 2018, 05:51:20 PM
Today I got started on the crank discs - the cylinders on this engine are outboard of the crankshaft support (which is the same thick support that holds up the slew drum), so the crank is a simple disc with a side pin. The discs are .24" thick and are 1.875" diameter, so they will act as a small flywheel also. I cut a pair of discs out of the same 303 stainless bar used on the track end wheels, thick enough to leave room for chucking them up. I turned the face and took it to diameter, then drilled/bored the center hole for the axle. The axle hole is a snug fit, and will get a set screw through the rim of the disc.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9fC754mG/IMG-3972.jpg)
With the part still in the chuck, moved the chuck over and bolted it to the mill table to drill/tap the offset hole with a M7x1.0 thread for the crank pin, which will have a shouldered end. Since the axle/pin holes and the face were all done with the part chucked throughout, they should wind up nice and perpendicular to each other.

(https://i.postimg.cc/W48J22zx/IMG-3973.jpg)
One more disc to get the same steps, then I will turn them around in the chuck and turn them down to final thickness.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sX2GxtZx/IMG-3974.jpg)
After that, on to the eccentrics...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 10, 2018, 07:50:07 PM
Both crank discs are turned to thickness, and I have turned up the crank pins. Decided to thread the inner ends to a shoulder, undercut the threads at the inner end so the pin would snug up all the way to the disc face. Next steps are to drill for the set screws and loctite the crank pins in place.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fbx53WMC/IMG-3975.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 10, 2018, 09:03:27 PM
Drilled/tapped the rims of the crank discs for some 10-32 stainless set screws to hold them to the crank shaft - still want to mill in some small flats on the shaft for the ends of the set screws.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zf85HBnX/IMG-3976.jpg)
I was just about to loctite the crank pin threads into their holes, when I real quick hit the brakes -  :wallbang: - I am going to want to be able to test fit the pins into the bearings when boring them out, and cannot do that if they are already fixed into the discs! So, that will come later. First, will mill the flats on the shaft (I carefully aligned the discs so the set screw holes are in the same plane when the discs are back to back, so if I mill the flats at 90 degrees to each other, the crank pins will be at 90 too).
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on December 10, 2018, 10:32:35 PM
Cranks and pins look great Chris, good catch on not Loctiting things until after assy tests. Been caught on that myself a few times.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on December 10, 2018, 11:21:34 PM
Well that’s a good thing Dog now you won’t be backtracking like a coonass crawfish! Looking good Chris.....now did I say .........I..........like....... :Love:


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 11, 2018, 09:11:58 PM
Thanks guys!
Today moved on to working on the eccentrics for the hoist engine. Normally on an engine with enough room on the crankshaft I like to make the eccentrics in two pairs, each of the pieces having a seperate set screw, which makes it simpler for me to individually tweak the timing on each cylinder in each direction. However, for this engine, there is only 0.350 of shaft length for each pair of eccentrics, so I compromised it down to having one set screw for each pair, each pair being made from one piece. Also, since the followers are so thin, I switched from my usual preference of having a rib in the center of each cam to keep them centered to having a lip on the outside of each cam.
In order to machine these parts without having to do interrupted cuts with the parting tool (which never goes well for me), I am starting out by turning the blanks out of a piece of 303 rod stock long enough to have a shaft out each side, so I can turn the parts around and turn them from either end. Later on, the shaft on one side will be trimmed to final length, and the other one trimmed off completely.
Here things got started, turning the shafts out either side and drilling/boring the holes for the axle in the center of each blank. The blanks only needed to be made out of 1" bar, but the closest I have on hand is some 1-1/4" bar, so they look a bit large to start (since they are too large to start!). After turning the two blanks, the first one was offset for the throw of the eccentric, using a dial indicator and the 4-jaw chuck.

(https://i.postimg.cc/xdVwSnDL/IMG-3977.jpg)
Then the cam on one side was turned in, taken down to the OD of the outer lip with a normal turning tool.
(https://i.postimg.cc/nzHNC2Lz/IMG-3978.jpg)
At that point I switched to a parting tool, and took it down the last .050 from the lip, to form the inner slot.
(https://i.postimg.cc/VN93fpmp/IMG-3980.jpg)
Then, you guessed it, turned the part around to do the other cam. Before removing it from the chuck, I marked the centerpoints of the part where they hit the center points of the jaws in the offset direction. That way I could index them from the other side. On these engines there is very little lead/lap, since they only ran in short bursts from dead stop to normal speed and off again, so saving steam like a loco would on a prolonged run is not neccessary. So, the cams are 180 from each other.
(https://i.postimg.cc/63YgRZ7h/IMG-3982.jpg)
Where the two cams meet in the center, there was a little rim of metal pushed back by the cutter, this was pulled out with pliers and the burrs on the corner get filed smooth. Here is the first eccentric turned to shape, will do the same on the other one then will trim the shafts out either side and drill/tap the holes for the set screws. Its hard to judge scale in the photo, the center section with the two cams/lips together totals 0.230" thick.

(https://i.postimg.cc/sxx8J27C/IMG-3984.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 12, 2018, 02:51:22 PM
And cut the second eccentric pair, and parted both pairs off to length from the shafts. Next will drill/tap for the set screws.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Lsn969wb/IMG-3986.jpg)
Test fit on the axle:
(https://i.postimg.cc/LswHqdM6/IMG-3985.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 12, 2018, 06:28:13 PM
The set screws are drilled/tapped/installed on the eccentrics, and did a test fit in the model. If you were wondering why they have to be so narrow, here is why:

(https://i.postimg.cc/SKB2HSGc/IMG-3987.jpg)

As you can see, there is very little room on the right end, and even less on the left end:

(https://i.postimg.cc/508YVhPT/IMG-3988.jpg)

And a shot of them on the real machine, shows how squeezed in everything gets:

(https://i.postimg.cc/kX2CRQCX/IMG-1352.jpg)

And a family shot of the machinery space so far:

(https://i.postimg.cc/T19Kyrvc/IMG-3990.jpg)

Next I want to make the eccentric follower straps. They will be made out of a chunk of bearing bronze (932) bar stock - being so small I wanted the extra strength of the bronze over brass. The bar will be split in half, the cut faces dressed smooth, then will drill/screw them together to start the shaping process. Hmmm... May need to mill the tabs before I can bolt them together.... need to ponder the order of things before I get to cutting.... Maybe mill the tabs with a space left for cutting....  Usually I have made them up out of thin bar stock, this is a different process for me... Something to ponder while mixing up some Christmas cookie dough!

(https://i.postimg.cc/nrZsc3gz/IMG-3992.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 12, 2018, 07:30:01 PM
A bit of thought, and decided that profiling the tabs in first would make it a lot easier for the following steps - drill for bolt holes down through the tabs, split the stock in two and mill the cut faces back, bolt them together to bore the center holes, then part off the 4 pieces needed (plus a spare or two if there is room, should be plenty) for final shaping.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BnY4jmL6/IMG-3994.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/251mhnhx/IMG-3995.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on December 12, 2018, 08:29:03 PM
Hi Chris, the eccentrics look great and that's a nice Slab-O-Straps you have going too. Got another box of  :popcorn: here.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 12, 2018, 09:14:59 PM
Hi Chris, the eccentrics look great and that's a nice Slab-O-Straps you have going too. Got another box of  :popcorn: here.


I just need an industrial strength deli slicer!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 13, 2018, 01:18:15 AM
Hmmmm.... Started laying out the distances between bolts to see how many straps I can get out of the block (looks like at least 6, so a couple spares). But, along the way I checked my fastener boxes and realized that I only have 1-72 screws long enough in brass (2-56 are too thick), though I do have 0-80's in steel. Question is, would the brass 1-72's be strong enough in brass? The steel 0-80's would be stronger, I would think? I can order more (though 1-72 in steel hex head is hard to find, other than AME which is excellent though pricey) but I'd rather not wait to get them....
 :thinking:
 :thinking:
I do have tap/die for 1-72, could make my own from steel, milling heads and doing threads that small is not fun....
 :thinking:
Thoughts, anyone?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on December 13, 2018, 01:52:58 AM
I'd order the AME screws, and work on something else in the interim.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on December 13, 2018, 02:11:51 AM
I'd order the AME screws, and work on something else in the interim.

What he said!! Cut yourself some slack, dude! :wine1:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 13, 2018, 04:03:10 AM
Thanks guys, I took your advice and decided that I would order some tomorrow, and skip over to the big ends on the con rods while waiting, when just before going to bed I remembered my old workbench in the basement. It has a couple of pencil drawers that accumulated a bunch of stray bits and pieces, including a couple of little tins of screws. Some digging and measuring in there, and I found 14 1-72 pan head machine screws that are long enough!


 :cartwheel:


So, all I need to do is mill the heads to small hexes with the hex collet holder, and I am in business. That gives time to order more screws without any waiting.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on December 13, 2018, 05:52:46 AM
  :ThumbsUp:
 :popcorn:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on December 13, 2018, 03:00:54 PM
Hi Chris, I did a quick calculation for shear force to strip #1-72 brass screws. The shear /strip force could be 25.2 to 62.9 lb depending on hardness of the brass and the brass grade. Take these figures with a grain of salt though - they are based on the theoretical full thread area, but in real life the thread area is probably not 100% of theoretical perfect, nor will the tapped hole be.

Even at the low number 25 .2 lb per screw I doubt that the screws in your eccentrics would ever see 25.2 lb load each. The friction load on your small area valve in the engine is probably only a few pounds and the eccentric being a cam will ease the load application on the screws. They aren't loaded like say conrod bolts would be.

The 932 bronze will be considerably higher strength than the brass screws, so the screws would likely strip (if anything is going to) before the bronze strap thread. You could use replacement mild steel or stainless screws if you ever did strip the brass ones.

Just food for thought. I think the brass #1-72 screws will be fine, and if not, you could substitute mild steel or stainless ones and they would be more than enough. Don't overtighten the screws though. Snug and loctite blue will do.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 13, 2018, 03:11:42 PM
Hi Chris, I did a quick calculation for shear force to strip #1-72 brass screws. The shear /strip force could be 25.2 to 62.9 lb depending on hardness of the brass and the brass grade. Take these figures with a grain of salt though - they are based on the theoretical full thread area, but in real life the thread area is probably not 100% of theoretical perfect, nor will the tapped hole be.

Even at the low number 25 .2 lb per screw I doubt that the screws in your eccentrics would ever see 25.2 lb load each. The friction load on your small area valve in the engine is probably only a few pounds and the eccentric being a cam will ease the load application on the screws. They aren't loaded like say conrod bolts would be.

The 932 bronze will be considerably higher strength than the brass screws, so the screws would likely strip (if anything is going to) before the bronze strap thread. You could use replacement mild steel or stainless screws if you ever did strip the brass ones.

Just food for thought. I think the brass #1-72 screws will be fine, and if not, you could substitute mild steel or stainless ones and they would be more than enough. Don't overtighten the screws though. Snug and loctite blue will do.
Great to know, thanks!!  Being so narrow, I figured the bronze for the straps would be better than brass, but was worried that the screws in brass would be too weak.

How do you calculate shear and thread strip forces for diff sizes/metals? Is there a formula set for that?
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 13, 2018, 06:46:31 PM
With the great Machine Screw Panic of 2018 over....   ::)

Moving on with the follower straps - cut the blank in half, and milled the faces flat again:
(https://i.postimg.cc/D0Z1Gf5b/IMG-3996.jpg)
Then drilled the holes for the 1-72 screws to hold the halves together, spaced wide enough to cut them apart and re-face the sides. The holes in one half are counterbored out to the clearance size, other part are to be tapped.

(https://i.postimg.cc/WzHgwRfY/IMG-3997.jpg)
I've got half the holes tapped, once the other half are done I will chuck it up in the 4-jaw for boring the center hole...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on December 13, 2018, 08:06:41 PM
Hi Chris, I calculate the area of the thread itself for a given thread (OD area - core dia area) and multiply by the yield strength of the material to get the shear strength prediction. I find the most accurate strength data comes from matweb.com but you can usually find it for various materials by googling, if you are not registered on matweb.  I use the lowest spec'd yield strength in the range rather than the ultimate tensile strength because when screws strip, the material is at yield not at UTS, and by using the lowest spec'd number the result is not optimistic, but practical. The thread area of the screw is the part under shear load, not the core of the screw, so strength before strip figures are at the lower end of the range for best certainty they will be strong enough in the worst case. If the actual screws are much stronger, so be it, no harm done.

For brass in particular, there are so many variations in the quality and hardness nowadays it is hard to predict strength, so I use figures from a well known threaded insert and hardware supplier for the range of yield strengths for the brass they use. They state the yield strength of their brass at 18,000 to 45,000 psi.  For 932 bronze (sae 660) I usually use 20,000 psi yield for calcs, and for steel 50,000 psi yield (in case the screws are Chinesium). (Good quality name brand steel screws can be up to 180,000 psi yield just FYI)

Hope this info helps.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 13, 2018, 08:47:42 PM
Hi Chris, I calculate the area of the thread itself for a given thread (OD area - core dia area) and multiply by the yield strength of the material to get the shear strength prediction. I find the most accurate strength data comes from matweb.com but you can usually find it for various materials by googling, if you are not registered on matweb.  I use the lowest spec'd yield strength in the range rather than the ultimate tensile strength because when screws strip, the material is at yield not at UTS, and by using the lowest spec'd number the result is not optimistic, but practical. The thread area of the screw is the part under shear load, not the core of the screw, so strength before strip figures are at the lower end of the range for best certainty they will be strong enough in the worst case. If the actual screws are much stronger, so be it, no harm done.

For brass in particular, there are so many variations in the quality and hardness nowadays it is hard to predict strength, so I use figures from a well known threaded insert and hardware supplier for the range of yield strengths for the brass they use. They state the yield strength of their brass at 18,000 to 45,000 psi.  For 932 bronze (sae 660) I usually use 20,000 psi yield for calcs, and for steel 50,000 psi yield (in case the screws are Chinesium). (Good quality name brand steel screws can be up to 180,000 psi yield just FYI)

Hope this info helps.
Excellent, thanks very much! 
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 13, 2018, 08:53:55 PM
I got the rest of the holes threaded and the halves bolted together. With the pair centered up in the 4-jaw so that the seam was centered, I drilled and bored the parts out to match the eccentric cams:
(https://i.postimg.cc/DwbTdtzW/IMG-3998.jpg)

Then moved the chuck over to the rotary table on the mill, and set up a slitting saw to slice off the parts - the rotary table let me rotate the part after each move of the table into the blade, so the final cut was not very deep. I was not confident of the blade staying level and not wandering, and was not sure of the finish it would leave, so I made the cuts so it left the part a little thick. It will be trimmed back to final thickness on the lathe - been wanting to try making an expanding arbor (seen it done by some of you guys on your projects), so will try making one to hold it for trimming.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3wXQzmmY/IMG-4000.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on December 13, 2018, 09:20:11 PM
Just FYI Chris, I don't like brass chips in my smoked meat on rye sandwiches, Only mentioning it as I see you found the deli slicer.  :naughty:

"Morty - two sliced extra thick, no pickle, Loewensenf on both!" Oh sorry, wrong deli...... :mischief:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 13, 2018, 09:31:53 PM
Just FYI Chris, I don't like brass chips in my smoked meat on rye sandwiches, Only mentioning it as I see you found the deli slicer.  :naughty:

"Morty - two sliced extra thick, no pickle, Loewensenf on both!" Oh sorry, wrong deli...... :mischief:


Yeah, this slicer specializes in the Extra Crunchy!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 14, 2018, 03:25:12 PM
Okay, all the follower blanks are sliced off the main bar:
(https://i.postimg.cc/8PF0tmtF/IMG-4005.jpg)

Between each slice I took the chuck back to the lathe to face the end down to the starting point for the next part, so all that needs to be done is to take the second side down to thickness. To make it easier to hold them straight, I will attempt to make up an expanding mandrel. Never made one, but have seen them on lots of other builds, should be easy (famous last words).
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on December 14, 2018, 03:33:03 PM
Hi Chris good to see the engine coming together   :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Willy
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: fumopuc on December 14, 2018, 03:40:46 PM
Hi Chris, nice progress, waiting for the next engine parts.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on December 14, 2018, 03:47:44 PM
Hi Chris, the expanding mandrel will work well, but if you wanted to avoid the work of making a special one for the straps, there's another alternate method I have used in similar circumstances. If you clean the straps well and superglue them to a plywood circle held in the chuck, they can be faced with very light cuts then gently pried off with a sharp wide blade. Two sided tape can be used too. Also heard of laquer being used in a similar way to glue with a metal disk by clockmakers. I've also soft soldered parts to plates or disks for further work, then melted the parts off, but this requires solder cleanup. If the soldered faces are not visible afterward that might be fine, but if the faces show, the glue / tape/ laquer methods might be better. Just food for thought. Lots of ways to do things!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 14, 2018, 04:09:50 PM
Hi Chris, the expanding mandrel will work well, but if you wanted to avoid the work of making a special one for the straps, there's another alternate method I have used in similar circumstances. If you clean the straps well and superglue them to a plywood circle held in the chuck, they can be faced with very light cuts then gently pried off with a sharp wide blade. Two sided tape can be used too. Also heard of laquer being used in a similar way to glue with a metal disk by clockmakers. I've also soft soldered parts to plates or disks for further work, then melted the parts off, but this requires solder cleanup. If the soldered faces are not visible afterward that might be fine, but if the faces show, the glue / tape/ laquer methods might be better. Just food for thought. Lots of ways to do things!
Excellent tips - though I think I will start with the mandrel, been wanting to try that method for a while, can go to one of your methods if it doesn't work out. The mandrel should make it easy to get them all concentric, plus I think I can use it to do the milling to shape on the outside of the straps which will put more force on than the facing will. That milling can always be done with a center hold-down if the mandrel does not work out.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 14, 2018, 04:15:38 PM
Hi Chris good to see the engine coming together   :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Willy
Hi Chris, nice progress, waiting for the next engine parts.
Thanks guys - its nice to be back on an actual engine again, back in the comfort zone for a while. The crosshead guide for this one will be interesting, normal open-sided one but with mounting blocks out two of the sides. Also the cylinder setup is a little different, the top/bottom caps and cylinder are not held together with studs at each end, the studs actually go all the way through and are held by the end of the crosshead guide - it saved them having to make room for nuts at the bottom end.
Don't think I have shown this image, a render of the hoist engine, this does not show the crankshaft across the middle, that is part of the slew drum gear train which sits in the middle:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Qxm5v2CV/Hoist-Engine.png)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 14, 2018, 06:04:22 PM
Well, that went remarkably easy!


For the expanding mandrel, started with a 1-1/2" 10-32 SHCS, and turned/filed the outside of the head to be a slight taper, around 5 degrees or so. Then took a 1-1/2" length of brass round bar, turned one end to be a close fit to the hole in the eccentric straps, and drilled through for the 10-32 SHCS. The first inch was counterdrilled to the size of the narrow end of the tapered screw head, and the rest tapped 10-32. Since the slitting saw was already set up on the mill, moved the chuck over to the mill and used it to make two cuts at 90 degrees to each other in the end of the mandrel to let it flex out as the screw is run in.
(https://i.postimg.cc/NM7f5rKD/IMG-4006.jpg)
Then moved the chuck back over to the lathe, and put the first part in - tightening the screw down made the madrel grip the inside of the part very tightly, and the shoulder made sure that the part was square on the mandrel. Few passes to turn the part down to thickness, loosened the screw, and the part came right off for test fit on the eccentric. Needed another thou off to fit well, so back on the mandrel for another pass.
(https://i.postimg.cc/c4J4LC07/IMG-4007.jpg)
This is what the mandrel looks like:
(https://i.postimg.cc/qqJBnMnT/IMG-4008.jpg)
First part done, turns well on the cam:
(https://i.postimg.cc/C5ch4THf/IMG-4009.jpg)
And the rest cut down as well, including the two spares:
(https://i.postimg.cc/MZ5pwV2K/IMG-4011.jpg)
Very happy with how easy that worked, have to keep that option in the bag-o-tricks for the future! I think it holds plenty tight to use it to mill the outside shapes as well. One end gets milled off round, the other as well but with a tab sticking out to hold the arm that goes to the Stephenson link. The tab will have a shallow slot to hold the arm, which will be temporarily screwed on then silver soldered in place.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: fumopuc on December 14, 2018, 06:11:11 PM
Hi Chris, may be for the next time.
https://www.2spi.com/category/crystal-bond/

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 14, 2018, 06:28:56 PM
Hi Chris, may be for the next time.
https://www.2spi.com/category/crystal-bond/ (https://www.2spi.com/category/crystal-bond/)
I have some of that, works pretty well. The things that the mandrel does so much better is self-aligning the parts to center, and allowing me to remove the part to test fit, and put it back on again very easily. It is a one-size tool, but it would be possible to turn the rim slightly smaller if needed for another part later. All in all, it only took a few minutes to make and saved a lot of time making multiple parts.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on December 14, 2018, 07:15:26 PM
Gotta hand it to you, I never saw anybody make an expanding mandrel with a deli slicer before!  :ThumbsUp:

Well done! the straps look like a great fit to the eccentrics.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 14, 2018, 07:16:30 PM
Gotta hand it to you, I never saw anybody make an expanding mandrel with a deli slicer before!  :ThumbsUp:

Well done! the straps look like a great fit to the eccentrics.
Getting hungry, gotta go make lunch....!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on December 14, 2018, 07:34:04 PM
'the top/bottom caps and cylinder are not held together with studs at each end, the studs actually go all the way through and are held by the end of the crosshead guide'

This isn't all that different Chris, providing that the headcap & endcap are spigoted to the barrel, and the opposite side of the headcap spigoted to the individual crosshead......[the only downside is a stripped tapping in the crosshead/s]

I find this crosshead tappings surprising, as it does not have any redundancy considering the machine in itself is  :hammerbash: absolutely in the highest levels of impulsive nature

I suspect the tie-rod bolts would have been rolled threads [over machining] as the rolling production imparts parallel grain structure and as such far greater strength than a machined thread & the change of section etc

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 14, 2018, 09:42:04 PM
Derek, this setup was new to me, though I have not inspected that many machines in this fine detail. I figured it had at least partly to do with the inaccessibility of the back side of the crosshead guide, since it is up against the gear train holder for the slew drum. As the pic a few posts ago shows, the machinery space is crammed in as tight as a front wheel drive compact car today.  Gotta get that time machine working again and go visit the Marion factory in 1905...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 15, 2018, 08:14:49 PM
Yesterday and today saw the rest of the shaping done on the eccentric straps, started out by using the rotary table on the mill to tap the bottom end of the straps down to dimension using several shallow passes.
(https://i.postimg.cc/N08V4ds6/IMG-4013.jpg)
Took off the curve on the end of the top half in the vise, indexed off the tops of the tabs even with the top of the vise so once the first one was done the rest were all the same height.
(https://i.postimg.cc/7Z2jCxjQ/IMG-4014.jpg)
Then turned them sideways in the vise, and milled the slot for the control arm end. The ends of the arms will have their corners rounded off to match the inside corner radius left by the end mill.
(https://i.postimg.cc/kXZkXVYb/IMG-4015.jpg)
Back onto the rotary table to take the sides of the upper strap down to size, which left the inside corner at the top tab still to do.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HL1RXqgW/IMG-4016.jpg)
So I laid the table down horizontal and finished off the top tab sides:
(https://i.postimg.cc/k4fHrDtD/IMG-4017.jpg)
Here are the finished straps, ready to put on the control arms.

(https://i.postimg.cc/qRkFZ2q9/IMG-4018.jpg)
The arms will be made out of some 1/16" flat steel bar, temp screwed to the straps and silver soldered in place. There needs to be a block at the other end of the arms to form the clevis which goes around the bottom of the Stephenson link, that will also be soldered on and shaped. All the arms need to be the exact same length to keep the timing correct for forward and reverse, so shaping/drilling that end block will require another little alignment jig.

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 15, 2018, 08:32:54 PM
Fascinating.  :ThumbsUp:

I wouldn't mind seeing a closeup photo of the 10-32. The mandrel work is going into my reference book.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 15, 2018, 08:45:11 PM
Fascinating.  :ThumbsUp:

I wouldn't mind seeing a closeup photo of the 10-32. The mandrel work is going into my reference book.
Sure thing - here it is, just took a stock bolt and chucked it in the lathe, filed a taper on the side of the socket head:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Jhcrk3Sg/IMG-4020.jpg)
The hole it goes into is tapped at the bottom, then is counterdrilled out to a diameter just over the size of the narrow end of the taper, so the farther it is run in the farther it pushes out the four segments of the mandrel. Works very well, I did notice that since the mandrel is brass, that the end of the hole got worn back in use, so the bolt had to go in a little farther, but that is not a problem unless making many many parts. Making the body out of steel would solve that, but the brass was much easier to fabricate from.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 15, 2018, 10:26:18 PM
I did notice that since the mandrel is brass, that the end of the hole got worn back in use, so the bolt had to go in a little farther, but that is not a problem unless making many many parts.

Thanks Chris.  :ThumbsUp: And thanks for the additional explanation on the wear. I had noticed the bolt seemed to go in a little farther and had wondered about it.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 15, 2018, 10:34:31 PM
Combination of wear and I did trim a bit off the socket to give room to fix a goof on one strap.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 16, 2018, 02:44:15 PM
I really like that mandrel Chris.  :ThumbsUp: Like Zee..........I'm going to file that away. Oh yeah.............the parts aren't to shabby either!

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on December 16, 2018, 04:01:54 PM
Hi Chris ...just a technical question about the straps and sheaves ...if one or the other had a segmented periphery would there be less wear/friction happening ???  I have never seen this modelled before but would it be a valid 'thing' to do ???? Answers on a post card &&&&&& !!!! ;D ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 16, 2018, 05:49:06 PM
Hi Chris ...just a technical question about the straps and sheaves ...if one or the other had a segmented periphery would there be less wear/friction happening ???  I have never seen this modelled before but would it be a valid 'thing' to do ???? Answers on a post card &&&&&& !!!! ;D ;D
Hi Willy,


I don't think I have ever seen that on a engine, model or full size. Was it done on full size ones anywhere? It would reduce the contact area, so less friction, but might give places for debris to collect at the edges if the segments, causing more wear there? It could give the straps stress points to bend/break at if they were notched. Dunno, never thought of that, good question for those who have dismantled more old engines...   :thinking:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 16, 2018, 08:09:41 PM
The bar stock for the arms were cut, but left overlong to make the next couple of steps easier. The ends at the eccentric straps were rounded over on the belt sander so the fit into the slots fully, then they were drilled/tapped for some temporary screws.
(https://i.postimg.cc/L5Q4Tc4y/IMG-4021.jpg)
With the parts held together with the screws, they were silver soldered together and the screws trimmed off flush. Then it was time to work on the other ends where they form a clevis to go around the reverse link. A bit of 3/16" stainless square bar was trimmed down to .125 thick in one dimension, and the ends taken back with a mill to form a double curve on the end - this will be where the clevis thickens out of the main bar.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0jy27kvM/IMG-4024.jpg)
Then a slot was cut just inboard of the end, longer than the finished slot. This will form the opening in the clevis.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CLtLfpQ5/IMG-4025.jpg)
The bars were cut off leaving the slot plus some more material so there was room to clamp them to the ends of the arms. Originally I was figuring on drilling/tapping/screwing them to the arms, but then remembered the little soldering clamps I had made back when making the frames for the rear deck. They were the perfect size to clamp these parts together, with the added benefit of being able to adjust the positions easier than if they were bolted together.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Fs1HRHGw/IMG-4028.jpg)
With the parts measured, clamped, measured again for distance from the center of the eccentric strap, they were silver soldered together at the curved end of the block. The end where the clamp is was not soldered, that will be trimmed off anyway.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Gmy3FgWQ/IMG-4030.jpg)
After pickling and wire brushing to clean up the parts, next step was to drill for the cross bolts through the ends. Since it is important that all of the straps have the end hole the same distance out from the eccentric hole, a jig is a must. I dug out the one I have used on previous models, just a bit of aluminum bar held on the rotary table tooling plate. The hole at the eccentric end has a block with the end turned to fit the strap, and the bolt in the center of that block goes into the pivot hole of the tooling plate, right on the axis of the rotary table. The other end is clamped down to hold it for drilling. This setup makes it easy to measure out the distance from hole center to hole center, and drill all the straps with the same position.

(https://i.postimg.cc/v80mbV7W/IMG-4032.jpg)
I have some 3-48 hex head screws from AME with a smooth shank long enough for the clevis, so I drilled a close fit hole to match that shank. Later the straps will be cut off and rounded on the ends with that hole as the center point.

Now, normally I would use this same setup to cut the Stephenson link, using the rotary table and this jig so that the arc in the link came out just right for the length of the straps. But, on this shovel the link has a straight slot, which makes the machining much simpler. I will just use a small temporary block in the vise as ajig for it, but rather than using the rotab to cut the arced slot, the mill table X/Y movements will be all that is needed. The other three engines on this model do not use Stephenson links for reverse, instead using a special internal valve setup. This jig was overkill for drilling these straps, but I already had it in the drawer so it was quicker to use it than rig up a long block for a drilling jig.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 16, 2018, 08:48:47 PM
Just saw over on the Maine  logging museums facebook page that they are in the process of building a set of log sleds to pull behind their Lombard Hauler - may need to revisit that model and add a set of sleds finally...
(https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/48035059_1000786440129180_7455735734599680000_n.jpg?_nc_cat=107&_nc_ht=scontent-ort2-1.xx&oh=d33d2c2e208c093e2dbfecbd41a07261&oe=5CA770F6)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: J.L. on December 16, 2018, 09:11:00 PM
Hi Chris,
Spoken like a true modeller.
It's in the blood!
John

P.S. I learned a great amount of information by watching you make those straps from scratch.  Most enlightening.  Thank you.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 16, 2018, 10:23:25 PM
Hi Chris,
Spoken like a true modeller.
It's in the blood!
John

P.S. I learned a great amount of information by watching you make those straps from scratch.  Most enlightening.  Thank you.
Thanks John!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 16, 2018, 10:35:46 PM
And after looking at the jig again, I decided to just use the current one again for the links, already in place, just needed three more holes drilled/tapped in it to hold the pair of links in place so I could mill them together.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XJxMb9Cm/IMG-4033.jpg)
The center section was chain drilled and milled out, then the tabs on the one side roughed in.
(https://i.postimg.cc/nrLycMKz/IMG-4036.jpg)
Here are the parts ready for some cleanup on the the belt sander:
(https://i.postimg.cc/KjsdKFQ5/IMG-4037.jpg)
And after rounding the tabs and the top end on the sander, assembled with the straps:
(https://i.postimg.cc/G370gJrs/IMG-4039.jpg)
All moving smoothly so far, I think that is as far as I will take the reversing linkages for now, will move back to the conrod and its bearing to the crankshaft so that I can get this whole assembly onto the model...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on December 16, 2018, 11:24:58 PM
Yea infinite diameter links'R'us..?........... ;) ;) ;) ;) !!!

Willy.......
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 16, 2018, 11:53:14 PM
Yea infinite diameter links'R'us..?........... ;) ;) ;) ;) !!!

Willy.......
Parallel circles!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on December 17, 2018, 01:16:38 AM
Damn Dog what can I say but some down right awesome work. Just love how you go about setups and thinking things through very impressive Chris.  :praise2:


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 17, 2018, 01:36:16 AM
Chris---Neat set of logging sleighs. My dad and most of my uncles worked "In the bush" when I was a kid in the 1940's and 1950's. Somewhere I have a picture of me and my uncle Charlie Martin setting up on top of a pile of logs being drawn on sleighs just like that one.--Not by a steam engine, but by a matched team of logging horses.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 17, 2018, 02:58:38 AM
Damn Dog what can I say but some down right awesome work. Just love how you go about setups and thinking things through very impressive Chris.  :praise2:


 :cheers:
Don
Thanks Don, its almost as much fun figuring out how to make a shape with the tools I got than doing it. Almost, still more fun to really make it!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 17, 2018, 03:01:46 AM
Chris---Neat set of logging sleighs. My dad and most of my uncles worked "In the bush" when I was a kid in the 1940's and 1950's. Somewhere I have a picture of me and my uncle Charlie Martin setting up on top of a pile of logs being drawn on sleighs just like that one.--Not by a steam engine, but by a matched team of logging horses.---Brian
There some loggers in my mothers family, she has a picture of my grandfather on a horse drawn set of logs like that out in the snow. Great stuff, very hard work they did!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 17, 2018, 05:25:01 PM
First one quick post of some small progress:
Got the bearings made for the crank pins, and cut the blanks for the con rods.

(https://i.postimg.cc/ryrLT78T/IMG-4041.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 17, 2018, 05:44:37 PM
Now, a look ahead at the next big part, the crosshead guide. This one has me going around in circles on best way to make it. Here is what the part looks like (screen caps from Fusion):
(https://i.postimg.cc/x8K7mDCb/Crossheadguide1.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/bYb4WbTN/Crossheadguide2.jpg)
There will be 2 of these, mirror images of each other for left and right. For size, they are 2-3/8" long, diameter of the flanged end is 1.125", bore is .75", with the OD of the tube section .875". The tube section wall is not that thick, and the squared base section is full length of it.

So, couple ways I could go:
- hog out of one block, which would require a lot of long cuts on the mill, with the part on the rotab in its vertical mode. The end flange would be tricky to cut in, and the inside corners on the base tough too.
- make the tube section on the lathe as normal, and attach to a seperately made base. This is the direction I am leaning, but cutting the arc into the top of the base is going to require an interesting setup on the mill, maybe something like the way I did the main boom base on the turntable earlier. Or milling it in with a ball end mill, with the part held on the rotab.
If I make it in two pieces, then comes joining them. I am a bit nervous about silver soldering a thin tube, wondering if it would deform any with the heat. I could turn the outside of the tube, make the base, solder the two together, then bore the center out of the tube? (thinking on the keyboard here)... Hmmm... Leave the blank for the tube long on the narrow end, to give a chucking lug...  The intersection of the front flange on the tube and the base will be interesting, to get a good fit there, could always modify the base slightly there... The combination of the two parts will just fit on the lathe without hitting the ways, so that is okay, though I would probably want to attach a counterwieght opposite the base to balance it for spinning, the Sherline doesnt like objects too far out of balance or it vibrates a lot.... Could always run bolts at the extreme ends of the tube to hold the parts together, though that would not look very authentic, even with thin arced heads, solder would be better looking... Though bolts off the ends in a section trimmed later would hold the pieces for soldering...

Going to need more cookies and a consult with the elves around the Christmas tree on this one...
 :thinking:
Any other thoughts/ideas/methods any of you think up, please jump in!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: fumopuc on December 17, 2018, 06:04:19 PM
Hi Chris, I would split it in  2 parts, silver soldered and final machining on thetlate. ZFinally some JB Weld can be used for getting the casting look.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on December 17, 2018, 06:05:30 PM
Hello Chris,

Most of the "stuff" that you make is hard for me to imagine how you do it anyway :shrug:

But for a first look; how about making it in 2 pieces / part-1 would be the bottom flat with the 8 bolt holes and the big "block" on the right side as facing the flange... / part-2 the balance. The bottom piece could be attached via screws from the bottom side into part-2.

I am just glad it is your build and not mine :ROFL:

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on December 17, 2018, 07:51:43 PM
Hi Chris, I just had a call from one of your elves  :shrug: - he thought of another way to machine the trunk guides:

1. maybe lathe turn the trunk guide leaving lots of extra metal on the ID for boring later, and maybe leave some on OD of the flange too.
2. make rectangular base pieces and screw together per Mr. Thomas's Ye Olde suggestion- forgot to mention - the rectangular blocks could be hollowed out to hide screws and make next step easier/less heat.
3. wire together, or screw together per Mr. Thomas's Ye Olde suggestion the turned trunk guide, and silver solder the whole shebang together (lots of flux and heat of course)
4. clean up base flat and smooth, bolt down on packing on the lathe carriage to get the bore at same centre as the lathe, and use a between centres boring bar to get the trunk guide cut to exact bore square and parallel to the base plates/ blocks. You could also turn the cylinder flange OD to exact size concentric to trunk bore in this setup.
5. mill the side cutouts and drill / tap for cylinder attachment

Just food for thought.  FYI the elf that called sounded like he'd had a few high octane egg nogs (Navy rum by the smell of it over the phone) :naughty:

To save energy I'll just say Hap Hol.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on December 17, 2018, 08:36:05 PM
Chris I tend to agree with cnr6400 but I would make two piece first use round stock, Chuck it and cut your  flange out leaving a round body with a flange. Make you base and cut the arc into the base the same as the round stock for a good fit. Sliver tint the base like sweet soldering. Flux the two pieces and put the two pieces together with a jig to make sure it doesn’t move. Heat it up till solder flows putting pressure on the top round stockso it will settle into the arc and add solder as need to each side. The two piece should take if you done the tinting correctly. Chuck it up and bore the tube out and drill flange holes and flip to sides to cut the openings. Well that’s my take I my have miss something but your good at it. I have had good results tinting then sweet soldering with silver solder.


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 17, 2018, 08:48:05 PM
Thanks guys, some great ideas - making up the bottom section in several pieces would save a lot of time, and possibly hollowing the center long post too to reduce mass to heat. I guess I would see how much mass there was in the center tube section and hollow one or the other a little to balance them, then they would heat evenly. Don - your idea of tinning would help a lot, ensure that there is full penetration of the solder in the joint, I have not done many wide joints with silver solder, that is a nice trick.

The tube section can't be left over-size on the outside, or there wont be a good way to turn it down after joining with the base, but your idea of leaving the flange larger could help - would want to at least leave extra in the long axis so I could face it when boring the inside so they come out dead square to each other.

Also, leaving the base a little thick to trim it to perfect height after joining would be a good idea too.
Now, as for that call from the drunk elf.   >:(   I checked the rum supply (not time yet for their grog ration) and it seems full, but maybe they got hold of Zee's Stinking Hoppy recipe and set up a still out back of the garage, have to go look!   :o   Don't want a repeat of last years Christmas party, drunk elves swinging on the chandelier, reindeer passed out in the tub...  :Lol:

BTW - hope you guys have all heard the really funny christmas song by Dropkick Murphy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTx-sdR6Yzk
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 17, 2018, 08:56:05 PM
In between chasing drunk shop elves and pondering crosshead trunk construction, I got a start on the con rod big end. The first short blanks of steel that I showed earlier got scrapped, while milling out the slot in the end of the first one it slipped in the vise and ruined the part - not enough to hold for deep cutting. So, I cut another piece long enough to get both out of, and milled the slots in either end - plenty to grip in the vise.
(https://i.postimg.cc/x8cVhT0D/IMG-4042.jpg)
Part so far:
(https://i.postimg.cc/NFSvcqMy/IMG-4043.jpg)
Next I'll get the end of the con rod milled down to fit in the slot, and cross drill for the retaining bolt. That assembly can then be drilled/bored through the joint to fit the bearing, then will shape the rest of the con rod...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on December 17, 2018, 08:58:55 PM
This is my Eastern and Anderson cylinder work.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on December 17, 2018, 09:02:37 PM
finish cylinder.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 17, 2018, 09:03:19 PM
That looks great Don! How did you cut the hollow in the side piece? I think I would have to use the mill, my lathe doesn't have much clearance for offsetting large parts.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 17, 2018, 09:16:41 PM
Now, as for that call from the drunk elf.   >:(   I checked the rum supply (not time yet for their grog ration) and it seems full, but maybe they got hold of Zee's Stinking Hoppy recipe and set up a still out back of the garage, have to go look!   :o   Don't want a repeat of last years Christmas party, drunk elves swinging on the chandelier, reindeer passed out in the tub...  :Lol:

No Chris. They learned from you. They took the rum long ago and replaced it with...have you checked your oil supply lately?  ;)

The question will be...will they figure out they need to start emptying the supply so you'll replace it.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 17, 2018, 09:19:04 PM
Now, as for that call from the drunk elf.   >:(   I checked the rum supply (not time yet for their grog ration) and it seems full, but maybe they got hold of Zee's Stinking Hoppy recipe and set up a still out back of the garage, have to go look!   :o   Don't want a repeat of last years Christmas party, drunk elves swinging on the chandelier, reindeer passed out in the tub...  :Lol:

No Chris. They learned from you. They took the rum long ago and replaced it with...have you checked your oil supply lately?  ;)

The question will be...will they figure out they need to start emptying the supply so you'll replace it.
Those little....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: john mills on December 17, 2018, 09:27:00 PM
if the top of the t shape is relived in the centre the contact to the cylindrical part could just be a angle if it is not to wide the silver solder would fill the slight gap i would leave  finish machining for the important dimensions till after soldering . it is always a challenge when you stretch the size of the machine.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 17, 2018, 09:41:35 PM
if the top of the t shape is relived in the centre the contact to the cylindrical part could just be a angle if it is not to wide the silver solder would fill the slight gap i would leave  finish machining for the important dimensions till after soldering . it is always a challenge when you stretch the size of the machine.
The ends would need to be the right arc at least to keep the gap from showing.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 17, 2018, 11:22:20 PM
A bit more done on the con rods this evening, milled the sides of the rod blanks down to fit the openings in the end caps:
(https://i.postimg.cc/BvPrTQqX/IMG-4046.jpg)
Got them close, then took off fine amounts till it was a nice snug fit:
(https://i.postimg.cc/52ydtST5/IMG-4045.jpg)
Here is where it is headed, blue line shows the shape of the part:
(https://i.postimg.cc/pLSN5nMw/IMG-4048.jpg)
Next is to drill for the retaining bolt, then can drill/bore for the bearing....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on December 18, 2018, 12:35:21 AM
That looks great Don! How did you cut the hollow in the side piece? I think I would have to use the mill, my lathe doesn't have much clearance for offsetting large parts.
Not quiet sure what you mean, is it the port opening for the slide valve your talking about? I use the mill on that as for the cylinder opening, I had that done before i soldered them together.  I had to let it cool slowly not to warp it by quenching it.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 18, 2018, 12:51:51 AM
That looks great Don! How did you cut the hollow in the side piece? I think I would have to use the mill, my lathe doesn't have much clearance for offsetting large parts.
Not quiet sure what you mean, is it the port opening for the slide valve your talking about? I use the mill on that as for the cylinder opening, I had that done before i soldered them together.  I had to let it cool slowly not to warp it by quenching it.

Don
Sorry, I meant the hollow face that sits against the outside of the cylinder, where it got soldered together. I am not sure the best way to mill that curved surface on the top of my base piece to mate against the bottom of my crosshead tube.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on December 18, 2018, 01:02:41 AM
Sorry, I meant the hollow face that sits against the outside of the cylinder, where it got soldered together. I am not sure the best way to mill that curved surface on the top of my base piece to mate against the bottom of my crosshead tube.
Chris I did the arc on the mill with the boring head! I will see if I can find the photo and post it for you.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 18, 2018, 01:10:17 AM

Sorry, I meant the hollow face that sits against the outside of the cylinder, where it got soldered together. I am not sure the best way to mill that curved surface on the top of my base piece to mate against the bottom of my crosshead tube.
Chris I did the arc on the mill with the boring head! I will see if I can find the photo and post it for you.

Don
Thanks!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on December 18, 2018, 01:10:59 AM
Here you go Chris!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 18, 2018, 01:22:57 AM
Here you go Chris!
Gotcha, that helps a lot!  The boring head can be set to the same diameter as the OD of the tube, then do vert passes, moving the part into the cutter a little more for each pass. Excellent!  Happier than a shop gnome in a box of Starrett tools!   :D
 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: 



Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 18, 2018, 02:53:06 AM
That setup should help when I get to the Stanley engine project, it has two cylinders connected by a bridge piece like this base, this will let me shape that block too. Which will make Zee happy as well...


 :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 18, 2018, 03:17:29 PM
Moving along on the con rods, got the cross bolts in, and drilled/bored the holes for the bearings:
(https://i.postimg.cc/zfMBq4RZ/IMG-4049.jpg)
Cut the caps apart, and test fit:
(https://i.postimg.cc/QtTMCSpB/IMG-4050.jpg)
Next is to drill the holes at the opposite end and then trim off the sides of the blanks, so the rods taper down to the opposite end.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on December 18, 2018, 03:59:45 PM
Great fits on those rods Chris, well done.

Going back to the pondering of the trunk guides for a second, I missed the fact that the cylinder flange was flush with the base front face. (I was probably overcome by rum fumes over the phone  ::)) The flange OD would not be machineable with a flycutter type tool on the between centres boring bar I had in mind, as you mentioned. (unless you made a non-protoype relief slot below the flange on the base front face). Anyway, got the  :popcorn: ready for when you tackle the trunk guides.  At the great rate you are working, it won't be long.

Regarding the "infinite radius arc" discussion about the expansion link - are you sure the slot faces aren't actually two 450,000-faced polygons?

(I'll get me coat and hat now - hmm, time for some egg nog maybe........ :paranoia:)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 18, 2018, 05:34:09 PM
Great fits on those rods Chris, well done.

Going back to the pondering of the trunk guides for a second, I missed the fact that the cylinder flange was flush with the base front face. (I was probably overcome by rum fumes over the phone  ::) ) The flange OD would not be machineable with a flycutter type tool on the between centres boring bar I had in mind, as you mentioned. (unless you made a non-protoype relief slot below the flange on the base front face). Anyway, got the  :popcorn: ready for when you tackle the trunk guides.  At the great rate you are working, it won't be long.

Regarding the "infinite radius arc" discussion about the expansion link - are you sure the slot faces aren't actually two 450,000-faced polygons?

(I'll get me coat and hat now - hmm, time for some egg nog maybe........ :paranoia: )
:lolb:
Maybe more egg, less nog....   :ROFL:
I think I have the sequence figured out now, with all the help from the group. The taper on the base to match the angle of the flange I may just do by hand with the rotary tool and files, the rest will be machined. Wont be long now, I am just finishing up the connecting rods so the guide trunk will be the next thing up - maybe except for assembling the crankshaft onto the model...
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 18, 2018, 05:40:02 PM
And here is the last installment on the connecting rods - drilled the hole for the crosshead bolt, and milled down the sides, using a bar through that hole to line up the parts, milled both together to make them match.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9FxxbjRj/IMG-4051.jpg)
The ends were then sawn off and rounded on the belt sander. Here are the crankshaft parts so far:
(https://i.postimg.cc/VkpKyBWG/IMG-4052.jpg)
The bearings were still a little sticky on the posts, so I mixed up a little Timesavers very fine grit lapping powder in a few drops of oil and spun them for a bit, now they run pretty smoothly. Here are all the parts in place, ready to go on the model. They are not adjusted for timing, just run in on the shaft:
(https://i.postimg.cc/qvz1ZZy6/IMG-4053.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 18, 2018, 07:27:25 PM
That setup should help when I get to the Stanley engine project, it has two cylinders connected by a bridge piece like this base, this will let me shape that block too. Which will make Zee happy as well...


 :ThumbsUp:

 :pinkelephant:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 19, 2018, 02:21:18 PM
And for all you engineer types out there, just was sent this amazing video of how to get back at package thieves. We may need a steam powered version of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoxhDk-hwuo
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on December 19, 2018, 02:32:19 PM
Neat solution, but a lot of time and money invested just to thwart sneak thieves. We have a lot of package theft in my neighbourhood . Most effective deterrent I've seen is Granny on the porch or inside the front door with a loaded 12 ga shotgun. "Just waitin' fer the ducks to land, officer....."

PS Granny does not partake of the egg nog, just FYI....safety first......
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on December 19, 2018, 02:43:11 PM
Don't you think it might be just a LITTLE suspicious when the safety valves on the boiler start popping off?  Now running it on compressed air, that you MIGHT be able to do - wouldn't need a chimney sticking out of the package either.

Are you sure you want to pursue this?  Might give the elves ideas that you really don't want them to have.  On the other hand, it would be a use for all that brass swarf.  Sending the idea to Zee's shop gnomes might be OK, anonymously of course.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 19, 2018, 03:13:13 PM
Sending the idea to Zee's shop gnomes might be OK, anonymously of course.

 :cussing:

It's a shame you've moved to the 'other' side of Santa's list.
I hope you enjoy Chris' company.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 19, 2018, 03:17:45 PM
Sending the idea to Zee's shop gnomes might be OK, anonymously of course.

 :cussing:

It's a shame you've moved to the 'other' side of Santa's list.
I hope you enjoy Chris' company.
I like the one guys comment I saw the other day - getting coal in your stocking is fine as long as you have a coal fired boiler!
So - substitute swarf for the glitter (if steam powered, heat it up in the flue...). We could add a really shrill whistle... Some dog poo (koala poo for those down under)....  A wifi virus to constantly play bad polka christmas tunes on their smart phone (loudly)....  :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Stuart on December 19, 2018, 05:04:39 PM
Chris

Rather than the polka song I would use the “Larma song “ do not google it to find the oridiginal one you will not get it out of your head a ear worm is a understament


As a closing comment you are doing some fine work with the tools you have ,keep it up


Put a mince pie out for the elf’s for Xmas

Have a metaphorical shot of Glenfarclas 105 full cask strength scotch

Have a good holiday and a productive new year
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on December 19, 2018, 05:21:00 PM
It's a shame you've moved to the 'other' side of Santa's list.

Are you sure the "other" side is the wrong side of the list?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 19, 2018, 06:41:01 PM
Thanks guys!!   :cheers:
(you too Zee)   :Lol:
May your shop elves be helpful, and your shop gnomes get lost on the way home!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 19, 2018, 06:46:37 PM
The crankshaft assembly is now in place on the model (not timed yet, that will come later) and spinning freely.   :cartwheel: Here is a shot showing how tightly packed everything is, just like the original:
(https://i.postimg.cc/htBQKYhw/IMG-4057.jpg)
There are still a pair of gear guards to go one around the hoist drum gears, will add those after the engine work is done since they get in the way of fingers and wrenches for getting at the set screws.
Current family shot of the machinery space:
(https://i.postimg.cc/gkR6Fpc8/IMG-4058.jpg)
So, next is on to the crosshead guide trunk, using a bunch of the suggestions from you guys on how to make them. I have started by cutting down some bar stock - the guides will be stainless steel, the base brass.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BZR1Vb3J/IMG-4059.jpg)
The main parts were cut long to leave chuck/vise room, they will get trimmed to length after shaping. First up will be to turn the outside of the guide tube and the end flange - going to leave a length on the narrow end to grip in the 4-jaw chuck, narrow enough to go into the jaws all the way past the face of the chuck and enough hanging out so the center can be bored later without breaking through.

Let there be swarf!   :LickLips:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on December 19, 2018, 07:42:00 PM
Well Dog I would say that’s a good plan of action! On Dasher, Dancer, Prancer, Vixen, Comet, Cupid, Donner, and Blitzen and lets not forget Rudolph..............


 :drinking-41:
Don




Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on December 19, 2018, 08:04:08 PM
Trudy, bring us a round on Chris; looking mighty damn fine  :Jester:

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 19, 2018, 08:21:36 PM
 :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 19, 2018, 08:28:28 PM
And let the steel-wool making begin! Lotsa nice curly swarf, all in the trash so you can see the parts...
Started by turning a narrower section on the end of each blank so it will grip all the way down the length of the jaws in the chuck (can see that on the part standing in the background), at the same time trued the length of the blank to match. Then, got the first one centered up holding by that spigot and turned it to the diameter of the end flange. The end flange will be the thickness out to that blue line on the right hand end, roughly. Next step is to turn down the section between the flange and the other end, which will be the face of the tube section.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mgVdMJzz/IMG-4061.jpg)
The flange will be 1.125" diameter the tube section will be .875" OD, and the center bore will later on be 0.75" ID. The finished part will be 2.375" long. The center boring will be done after silver soldering on the base.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 19, 2018, 10:35:58 PM
constantly play bad polka christmas tunes

There's no such thing.  :ShakeHead:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 19, 2018, 11:20:21 PM
constantly play bad polka christmas tunes

There's no such thing.  :ShakeHead:
Yikes. That explains a lot...   


 :paranoia:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 20, 2018, 01:08:51 AM
More shaping on the outside of the guide trunks - took the tube section down to diameter, needed to swap between left/right handed tools to finish off both ends. This left the tapered section at the flange as a squared off shape.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cCgGnGB0/IMG-4062.jpg)
So then got out the compound rest and angled in the back side of the flange, leaving a small flat before the end. This end section is still a little long, so there is room for final truing cut after the base is soldered on and the center is bored out.
(https://i.postimg.cc/NF3q8CdT/IMG-4063.jpg)
That finished up the outside of the first trunk guide, so repeated the same steps for the second one:
(https://i.postimg.cc/fWpNhkML/IMG-4064.jpg)
I think the next step will be to shape the base piece, that is the part that took some help from you guys, going to try it the way Don suggested.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 20, 2018, 09:22:10 PM
Well that was a bit nerve-wracking to start, but went very well - used the boring head with an interrupted cut to put the arc in the top of the base for the crosshead trunk (thanks for the setup tips Don!).  I put in the longest boring bar I had, just long enough to do the job, though between the long bar and the Sherline not being as rigid as a bigger machine there was just enough flex in the system that there was an interesting pattern in the surface as the cutter hit its harmonic. Lots of light cuts worked out though. I set the boring head to cut the same diameter as the outside of the trunk piece (found an offcut that was also .875" to use). Here is the setup:
(https://i.postimg.cc/TPH7dwHt/IMG-4067.jpg)
With the cutter making the diameter of cut for the finished part, I started out on the right edge of the bar, making a sereis of plunge cuts, moving the table over by 5 to 8 thou between cuts - lots of passes, but I did not want to catch the cutter and wreck things.
Here is the cut down to finished depth, holding up the test piece to check the fit. Notice that the cut is off center on the face of the part - the finished part has a narrow section that is centered, and a wider area at one end. This blank is wide enough to get both areas out in one piece, will mill off the bottom and one side to match the plans after I get the second one to this stage.
(https://i.postimg.cc/gJCgh7pR/IMG-4069.jpg)
So, one down, one to go. In this shot you can see the faint ripple pattern in the curved surface - enough to see but not feel.

(https://i.postimg.cc/NM9N5c3B/IMG-4070.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on December 20, 2018, 09:30:36 PM
That is a brave plunge milling process [even at .005 to .008" per sweep & a 25 mm diameter shank bar].....especially using a tipped tool.....I would have expected a very sharp HSS bit a better prospect....

Are they some angular vertical chatter marks?.....[once they start ...they cannot be stopped - except by reverting to HSS]

Although all's well that ends well  :DrinkPint:

Derek

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 20, 2018, 09:35:37 PM
That is a brave plunge milling process [even at .005 to .008" per sweep & a 25 mm diameter shank bar].....especially using a tipped tool.....I would have expected a very sharp HSS bit a better prospect....

Although all's well that ends well  :DrinkPint:

Derek
Yeah, took it slow (slow feed rate in the plunge, moderate motor speed) and lots of light passes - the only HSS bits I have are half that length. I figured that if this did not work, I would try it with the smaller bit and make two short pieces, solder them end to end. But, the first one works, as long as the second does as well then its a good outcome. I did sharpen then tip on this cutter before starting, the factory edge was pretty rough so I honed it down on a fine grit wheel. I'll try the other one tomorrow, time for dinner!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 20, 2018, 09:42:18 PM
Chris--I was doing something very similar yesterday on my mill, opening up the water reservoir for my new engine using the boring head on my mill. I took too aggressive a feed, the long boring bar caught, oinked the part I was milling half out of the vice and stalled the mill. Didn't break anything, but it certainly woke me up. I haven't checked yet to see if it pulled the head out of tram or not.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 20, 2018, 09:47:41 PM
Chris--I was doing something very similar yesterday on my mill, opening up the water reservoir for my new engine using the boring head on my mill. I took too aggressive a feed, the long boring bar caught, oinked the part I was milling half out of the vice and stalled the mill. Didn't break anything, but it certainly woke me up. I haven't checked yet to see if it pulled the head out of tram or not.
Thats the outcome I was/am worried about, couple times almost tried a deeper cut but caught myself in time and didn't. Hope your mill is okay. If this method didn't work, I was going to fall back to the way I did the qurter-round shape on the base of the turntable, boring out a chunk of large bar and slicing that, much less worry but it wastes a lot of material, especially for two of these.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on December 20, 2018, 10:53:09 PM
Re the "ripples" chatter in the base blocks, if anyone comments on them before the zilver zolder operations, just say "the ripples are there to provide mechanical "tooth" for the zolder to adhere better...... :embarassed: That's my story and I'm stickin to it!"

Like we used to say at the Canadian branch of a large US based photocopier manufacturer I worked on contract at for many years - "if you can't fix it, feature it!"

legal notice: >no egg nog was consumed prior to or during the preparation of this post<
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 20, 2018, 11:05:43 PM
My mill is a heavy duty bench-top unit with a tiltable head that is secured in place by a bolt in an arced slot. Whenever something like that occurs, it will yank the head out of tram, but is easily fixed.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 21, 2018, 12:14:26 AM
Re the "ripples" chatter in the base blocks, if anyone comments on them before the zilver zolder operations, just say "the ripples are there to provide mechanical "tooth" for the zolder to adhere better...... :embarassed: That's my story and I'm stickin to it!"

Like we used to say at the Canadian branch of a large US based photocopier manufacturer I worked on contract at for many years - "if you can't fix it, feature it!"

legal notice: >no egg nog was consumed prior to or during the preparation of this post<
Our version was, That's not a bug, Its an unanticipated Feature!




How about the ripples being part of the internal circuitry?!




That company started with an X? I was across town at its K rival, both here in Rochester. Both shadows of their former selves...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 21, 2018, 12:15:28 AM
My mill is a heavy duty bench-top unit with a tiltable head that is secured in place by a bolt in an arced slot. Whenever something like that occurs, it will yank the head out of tram, but is easily fixed.
Sounds like a good failure mode, fixable once you know to look for it.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on December 21, 2018, 01:32:50 AM
Hello Chris,

Nice work :ThumbsUp:

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 21, 2018, 02:18:44 AM
Thanks Thomas.


Forgot to mention the brass bar was first stress relieved so there was little risk of bananafication as I mill off the sides.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on December 21, 2018, 12:33:50 PM


That company started with an X? I was across town at its K rival, both here in Rochester. Both shadows of their former selves...

Yes we were in the X files. Very true about being a shadow of its' former self. I think things went off the rails at X when top brass started thinking they should sell assets to make the books look better and then convert the company into a finance firm (modeled on GE under Jack Welch I think). When they stopped planning for and making widgets people needed every day, which was the foundation the firm was built on, it was the start of a steep downhill run without a brake test, and low water in the boiler.

Were things at the K similar? I'm aware the top brass there kind of missed the digital photo trend, but apart from that not sure. I don't want to derail your thread any further though, so I'll message you separately.

Got the  :popcorn: ready for next bits of the trunk guide assembly! 
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 21, 2018, 01:44:19 PM


That company started with an X? I was across town at its K rival, both here in Rochester. Both shadows of their former selves...

Yes we were in the X files. Very true about being a shadow of its' former self. I think things went off the rails at X when top brass started thinking they should sell assets to make the books look better and then convert the company into a finance firm (modeled on GE under Jack Welch I think). When they stopped planning for and making widgets people needed every day, which was the foundation the firm was built on, it was the start of a steep downhill run without a brake test, and low water in the boiler.

Were things at the K similar? I'm aware the top brass there kind of missed the digital photo trend, but apart from that not sure. I don't want to derail your thread any further though, so I'll message you separately.

Got the  :popcorn: ready for next bits of the trunk guide assembly!
Oh yeah, things at The Big Yellow Box were pretty silmilar, partly since so many people (and managers  :Lol:  ) went back and forth between the two of the companies. They kept selling off the profitable businesses that were not film, then collapsed when not much was left of the film market.  :hammerbash:
The end came when they brought in a new management team from HP, all the guys HP passed over as too stupid, who wanted to beat HP at thier own printer game, using new ink and heads we already had. Didn't work. Only good thing was we had a pension fund they couldn't touch. Much happier my model shop!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on December 21, 2018, 05:00:26 PM
Hi Chris,
I think the Drunken Elves may be traced back to my Elves. My Wife had me make some Rum Balls and some may have been smuggled to your Elves by mine. I would mail you a sample but the post office mumbled something about flamable objects and disapeared with the package.
Hope you and your Mom have a Marry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 21, 2018, 05:53:19 PM
Hi Chris,
I think the Drunken Elves may be traced back to my Elves. My Wife had me make some Rum Balls and some may have been smuggled to your Elves by mine. I would mail you a sample but the post office mumbled something about flamable objects and disapeared with the package.
Hope you and your Mom have a Marry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

Gerald.
Hi Gerald - possible that the other submarine guys from Toronto brought them down in their toolbox and they jumped into my car at our last pond run...  :Lol:
The attachments you put in dont work - try putting the link just into your text as normal rather than as an attachment.

Mom says Hi - she remembers you from the RC runs years ago!
 :cheers:
Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 21, 2018, 06:02:36 PM
And success at milling the arc into the second piece! That tall an interrupted cut was a little nervewracking, but all went well. Going to see if I can find a good HSS bit for my boring head, these carbide tipped ones are not the best quality, for smaller work I use the ones Sherline sells which work very well. But, it worked out. Next step is to make the recess for the flange at the end of the trunk guide, started by milling in the straight section with the boring head and a small bit, after cutting the parts to length which let it sit down in the vise farther too:
(https://i.postimg.cc/FzvF3wSJ/IMG-4074.jpg)
Test fit with the flange looks good, measurements say it should be right on too.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XJd7Znrb/IMG-4072.jpg)
Big thing to remember is that there are two of these, and they have to be mirror images of each other for the left and right cylinders.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vTvYzX72/IMG-4075.jpg)
Last step for the flange recess is to cut the angled portion. I dont see a good way to do that on the mill, so it will be done by hand with the rotary tool and a cylindrical bit. I'll tackle that after lunch and a rest, want hands nice and steady for that operation. In this photo, the cut to be made is shown by a pen mark in the corner:
(https://i.postimg.cc/T2j3fY8j/IMG-4076.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on December 21, 2018, 06:14:47 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on December 21, 2018, 08:55:09 PM
Our version was, That's not a bug, Its an unanticipated Feature!


We always called them undocumented features.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 21, 2018, 09:07:58 PM
This afternoon took the bases over to the rotary tool and cut in the angled section for the flange to sit against - not a perfect fit all the way around, but pretty good, any gaps can get JB'd later on.
(https://i.postimg.cc/s2w2d3Mf/IMG-4077.jpg)

Then took the sides and bottom faces down to dimension:
(https://i.postimg.cc/pTrLP3jf/IMG-4078.jpg)

The parts so far - need to trim the base bottom plates to size and drill/tap for some screws to hold them to the bases from underneath. Then I can set up for silver soldering the tubes to the bases - the bottom plates will be added afterwards, to keep the overall dimensions down low enough to turn the parts on the lathe for boring the center holes. I am debating whether to pre-tin the parts like Don suggested then reheat to flow them together, or just clamp them together and flow in the solder from the side. The teensy ripples in the arced surface on the base will give a great path for the solder to wick in, and that way I can better ensure that the flanges meet up with the lead edges of the bases.
(https://i.postimg.cc/63P5qzVD/IMG-4079.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 22, 2018, 01:02:14 AM
I've gotten the base plate screwed to the base, also decided to put one screw in through the base into the bottom of the trunk guide to hold them for silver soldering - the tube section is longer than the base, so nothing to keep it from shifting backwards during soldering if it is not held in place. With the slight roughness to the top of the base, there should be plenty of wicking room for the solder to flow through (its tight enough of a fit for the solder to touch both sides though).
(https://i.postimg.cc/HW0whhmS/IMG-4081.jpg)
When I drilled the base plate for the screws, I didn't bother getting the alignment of the edges perfect since the plate was needing trimming to size anyway (raw stock was about .1" wider than needed), so I waited till it was screwed to the base, clamped the base in the vise, and milled around the edges to true them to the base and take it to size. Here are the parts, ready for soldering:
(https://i.postimg.cc/dtq2PjtJ/IMG-4083.jpg)
After soldering the spigot sticking out the back end of the base will be used to chuck the assembly in the 4-jaw to drill/bore out the center. The holding screw is stainless like the tube, so it should bore past it smoothly. After the center is bored out the sides will be milled to make the openings on the side, and the spigot trimmed off. At least all that is the plan for the moment....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on December 22, 2018, 10:21:34 PM
Looking good Chris don’t worry about the little gaps on the flange you can apply silver solder and fill it. I had some spots on mine that I worked on to fill worked a treat. All we need now is good concentrated heat the brass will heat faster then the stainless. Waiting to see your results!.... :cartwheel:


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 22, 2018, 10:59:38 PM
Looking good Chris don’t worry about the little gaps on the flange you can apply silver solder and fill it. I had some spots on mine that I worked on to fill worked a treat. All we need now is good concentrated heat the brass will heat faster then the stainless. Waiting to see your results!.... :cartwheel:


 :cheers:
Don
You must have been peeking in the window out in the garage - I got them soldered up this afternoon and they came out well - in the places with a bit of a gap I just put some extra solder there and let it flood the gap, came out fine as you say.
Just uploading the pics now....
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 22, 2018, 11:10:51 PM
Okay, after silver soldering and cleaning up the parts (pickle and wire brush/water), here are the parts - the bases are on, as are the base plates underneath. The screws were cut off underneath and filed flush with the base plates. The wider section and the narrow end to the right of the brass bases will be cut off later, they are there to hold in the chuck on the lathe.

(https://i.postimg.cc/8kJbQS8b/IMG-4084.jpg)
Started by centering up in the lathe with a dial indicator on the barrel of the steel section (turned the part in the chuck so I could get the indicator on the 4 points in line with the chuck jaws), then drilled a center hole through the part and a little ways past where it will be trimmed off. From what I could see with the indicator, the center section is still nice and straight, did not want to risk warping it in soldering by hollowing it out first.

(https://i.postimg.cc/2SmdZL1H/IMG-4085.jpg)
Widened out the hole with a narrow boring bar,
(https://i.postimg.cc/YqQf0zCG/IMG-4086.jpg)
The switched to the large boring bar, which has less flex for deep holes.
(https://i.postimg.cc/K8NPrcLm/IMG-4088.jpg)
When I started drilling, the lathe would take a reasonable speed without too much vibration from the off center mass of the base, but as the hole is bored out the thing is vibrating more so I keep having to slow it down, less mass in the center so larger proportion on the outside. So, I think I will stop there for now and make up a counterweight for the side opposite the base. Current thought is to mill an arc matching the large section into a chunk of brass bar, and run a screw or two through it into the large diameter area that will be trimmed off. That way I don't have to solder/glue/wire anything on and risk it coming off and beaning me.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FFMVhBNX/IMG-4089.jpg)
I'll give that a try tomorrow...
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 22, 2018, 11:26:45 PM
While waiting for the next construction post, here are a couple of interesting photos for your enjoyment.
First, here is what happens when you let the shop elves run the shovel and train on the upper level above your steam shovel. That used to be a model 91 Marion on the lower level....

(https://i.postimg.cc/QNmj3RpH/Steam-Shovel-Accident-At-Panama-Canal.jpg)

Though that is not as bad as what happens when you let the elves set the explosives on the rock face after a night of partying. The guy on the lower right is standing there looking at the remains of a steam shovel underneath the mountainside that fell on it.

Captions?

"Oh, Sh*t, I signed that shovel out"

"Those !@#%!@#ing elves!"

"Gravity works over here boss!"

"Not so bad, that will buff out!"

(https://i.postimg.cc/fTbDTBK5/Isthmian-Canal-Commission-Report-1912-Plate-43.jpg)

And notice they say nothing about what happened to the crew...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on December 22, 2018, 11:39:10 PM
The other option Chris  :thinking:.......you did some deep vertical boring a few days back....[with a 25 diameter bar?]......not sure of the limitations etc, however a vertical boring setup of the barrels stationary could minimize issues or challenges with boring in the late

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 22, 2018, 11:46:02 PM
The other option Chris  :thinking: .......you did some deep vertical boring a few days back....[with a 25 diameter bar?]......not sure of the limitations etc, however a vertical boring setup of the barrels stationary could minimize issues or challenges with boring in the late

Derek
Hi Derek,
The bar I used for that did not give that great a finish, a cheap carbide tipped one as part of a set I picked up years ago. In general, even with shorted bores, I have had better luck boring them out on the lathe than on the mill, though you are right, that is a good backup method. It will not take long to try the counterweight, if that does the job then I'll finish it up on the lathe - had decent results with long bores that way with my Corliss build a while back. I did find a better cobalt-steel set of bars that should go deep enough, they will be here later next week, so if I need to try it on the mill I'll use those instead. Nice thing about taking the holes out this large is that there are plenty of passes to get the tooling and speeds nailed down before getting to the final size!
Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on December 23, 2018, 12:21:46 AM
Caption ideas for the Panama incident:

"well THERE's yer problem"

"did Henry say 8 sticks of dynamite or 18?"

" rock and roll " as he pushed the plunger....

Just kidding. The zilver zoldering looks great. Glad it went so well. Very strong construction too.  Re your counterbalancing for the boring: Have you got room / swing to maybe use 4 studs total, 2 studs into each side of your c-balance block, down to a plate with nuts under the base? The studs would pass close as possible by the trunk guide, keeping things in line. Just thinking that might be less effort than machining the arc shaped recess into the c-bal block.

Going back to the old photo - I could swear one of the bystanders has a cup of egg nog........ :naughty:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on December 23, 2018, 01:00:40 AM
Hello Chris,

Looks great, another really complex build that you completed in fine fashion  :praise2: :NotWorthy:

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 23, 2018, 01:02:39 AM
Caption ideas for the Panama incident:

Chris came for a visit.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 23, 2018, 01:19:02 AM
Caption ideas for the Panama incident:

"well THERE's yer problem"

"did Henry say 8 sticks of dynamite or 18?"

" rock and roll " as he pushed the plunger....

Just kidding. The zilver zoldering looks great. Glad it went so well. Very strong construction too.  Re your counterbalancing for the boring: Have you got room / swing to maybe use 4 studs total, 2 studs into each side of your c-balance block, down to a plate with nuts under the base? The studs would pass close as possible by the trunk guide, keeping things in line. Just thinking that might be less effort than machining the arc shaped recess into the c-bal block.

Going back to the old photo - I could swear one of the bystanders has a cup of egg nog........ :naughty:
Great captions!


And a neat idea for the counterbalance too. Like a u bolt around a trailer frame... Would let me try different blocks till it balanced well too. I like it!!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 23, 2018, 01:19:22 AM
Caption ideas for the Panama incident:

Chris came for a visit.
Love it!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on December 23, 2018, 01:49:23 AM
Chris, think hose clamp. You know, to hold the counter weight!

 :stickpoke:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 23, 2018, 02:16:15 AM
Chris, think hose clamp. You know, to hold the counter weight!

 :stickpoke:

Pete
That could be even simpler, have to check the parts drawer, see what I have. If no hose clamps big enough I know I have boots bolts and nuts the right size, may already have some drilled bar from other jig :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on December 23, 2018, 02:26:55 AM
While waiting for the next construction post, here are a couple of interesting photos for your enjoyment.
First, here is what happens when you let the shop elves run the shovel and train on the upper level above your steam shovel. That used to be a model 91 Marion on the lower level....

(https://i.postimg.cc/QNmj3RpH/Steam-Shovel-Accident-At-Panama-Canal.jpg)

Though that is not as bad as what happens when you let the elves set the explosives on the rock face after a night of partying. The guy on the lower right is standing there looking at the remains of a steam shovel underneath the mountainside that fell on it.

Captions?

Would make a good Diarama  :mischief: :mischief: ;D

willy

"Oh, Sh*t, I signed that shovel out"

"Those !@#%!@#ing elves!"

"Gravity works over here boss!"

"Not so bad, that will buff out!"

(https://i.postimg.cc/fTbDTBK5/Isthmian-Canal-Commission-Report-1912-Plate-43.jpg)

And notice they say nothing about what happened to the crew...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on December 23, 2018, 03:24:47 PM
Great results Chris glad it went well now you have a solid piece. Did you have any trouble or did the soldering go as plan?..... :cheers:


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 23, 2018, 04:25:20 PM
Great results Chris glad it went well now you have a solid piece. Did you have any trouble or did the soldering go as plan?..... :cheers:


 :cheers:
Don
Hi Don,
I did the soldering with the parts screwed together, went quite well. I got pretty good flow through the seams, but could see spots where it did not go all the way through, so for good measure I did another heat from the other side, which let me put in enough extra on that side to leave a little fillet to give it a casting look. Very pleased with how it went, gives me confidence to do the same when adding the steam chest base to the side of the cylinders later.

Thanks!!
Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 23, 2018, 05:01:28 PM
Thanks again to CNR for the counterweight idea - I took some short bits of CRS bar and a couple lengths of 10-32 threaded rod, and made up this holder:
(https://i.postimg.cc/rFQ1nK4n/IMG-4091.jpg)
The one bar sits flat on the bottom of the base plate, which keeps everything from turning or twisting. It worked very well, balanced well enough that I could set the speed to make the cutter work best without shaking it apart. Played around with cutter height and motor speeds a little, found a sweet spot that gave a nice smooth cut.

Also took a facing cut on the end of the flange to ensure that was dead square to the bore.

(https://i.postimg.cc/DyjGQRVR/IMG-4093.jpg)
With the part still chucked up and centered, moved the chuck over to the rotary table, and drilled/tapped the 4-40 holes for the ends of the studs that will hold the cylinder and caps on. I locked down the mill table so I can use the same position for the other crosshead trunk, and will make/drill the top caps with this setup too. The table will need to be moved to make the steam trunk base for the cylinders, but I can use the top caps as guides to get the position back again for drilling the bottom caps and cylinders to match.

(https://i.postimg.cc/XYqwT4cV/IMG-4096.jpg)
Before moving on to the second trunk assembly, I want to take the opportunity with the first one still centered to hone/polish the bore, going to make up a close fitting rod and use some TimeSavers lapping powder/oil for that...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: pgp001 on December 23, 2018, 05:19:23 PM
Just something to watch out for !!

Depending on how tightly you have bolted that counterweight on it may be deforming the metal cylinder, when you release it the bore may well go out of round again.
I would be tempted to remove it prior to the honing stage, and just run the lathe slowly.

You can always put the lap in the lathe and hold the cylinder by hand, but be careful it does not "grab" and spin in your hand. A large adjustable spanner round the cylinder and steam chest would prevent that happening.

Phil
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on December 23, 2018, 06:21:23 PM
Glad the c-balance idea w studs worked out. Good point by Mr. Pgp001 about overtightening as the tube gets bored out. It will be pretty sturdy, being stainless, but still worth caution on the tightening.  :popcorn:

Enjoy your visit to Lap-land. Watch for reindeer!  :naughty:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 23, 2018, 07:19:32 PM
Just something to watch out for !!

Depending on how tightly you have bolted that counterweight on it may be deforming the metal cylinder, when you release it the bore may well go out of round again.
I would be tempted to remove it prior to the honing stage, and just run the lathe slowly.

You can always put the lap in the lathe and hold the cylinder by hand, but be careful it does not "grab" and spin in your hand. A large adjustable spanner round the cylinder and steam chest would prevent that happening.

Phil
Good point - I just finished lapping the first one, no problems with compressing it since I only took them down snug enough to hold, did not crank down like putting a salesman in a vise....   ::)   Not that I would ever do such a thing. More than once. A day.   :mischief:
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 23, 2018, 07:20:34 PM
Glad the c-balance idea w studs worked out. Good point by Mr. Pgp001 about overtightening as the tube gets bored out. It will be pretty sturdy, being stainless, but still worth caution on the tightening.  :popcorn:

Enjoy your visit to Lap-land. Watch for reindeer!  :naughty:
Pun Alert! Woot! Woot!   
I'd be more worried about stepping in the reindeer swarf...   :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 23, 2018, 07:31:01 PM
So, here is how I did the lapping on the first trunk: loctited an offcut of steel on the end of a short rod, then turned it to be a close fit on the trunk, just free enough it would slide through but not grab. Held that in the tailstock chuck, dosed it up with a layer of medium grit Timesavers powder mixed to a paste in a few drops of oil, and started out running it in while turning the chuck by hand to get a coat along the bore (could feel the grit  acting on the surface but it was even all the way through so I knew the bore was pretty parallel). Then, started on slow speed, running the tailstock in and out, gradually ramping up the speed. Added some more of the compound a couple times, then ran till it was breaking down (the Timesaver grit grinds itself down and disapates in the oil).

(https://i.postimg.cc/2j7s8Rgp/IMG-4099.jpg)
Cleaned it up then repeated with the fine grit. That got it down to a pretty smooth surface - not a mirror, but all the tool marks were gone and it feels smooth to the touch. Here it is cleaned up again:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Gh3Z4g14/IMG-4100.jpg)
I think it is good to go - remaining steps on this guide trunk are to mill the openings in the sides, drill the mounting holes in the base plate, and trim off the excess beyond the base. But, first need to drill/bore/lap the second trunk first!
And first-first, need to go share some christmas cookies with the elves!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on December 23, 2018, 09:07:23 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on December 23, 2018, 11:16:08 PM
Great results Chris glad it went well now you have a solid piece. Did you have any trouble or did the soldering go as plan?..... :cheers:


 :cheers:
Don
Hi Don,
I did the soldering with the parts screwed together, went quite well. I got pretty good flow through the seams, but could see spots where it did not go all the way through, so for good measure I did another heat from the other side, which let me put in enough extra on that side to leave a little fillet to give it a casting look. Very pleased with how it went, gives me confidence to do the same when adding the steam chest base to the side of the cylinders later.

Thanks!!
Chris

Looks good Chriis you have it plannned out well. When you do the steam chest make sure to tint it before soldering it to the cylinder. Any spots that you miss could effect the steam ports. That was a concern when I did mine but all came out well with good flow and penetration of the solder. Your teaching me new stuff with your setups.  :ThumbsUp:.......now did I say .........I..........like......... :Love:



 :drinking-41:
Don

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 24, 2018, 12:58:54 AM
Great results Chris glad it went well now you have a solid piece. Did you have any trouble or did the soldering go as plan?..... :cheers:


 :cheers:
Don
Hi Don,
I did the soldering with the parts screwed together, went quite well. I got pretty good flow through the seams, but could see spots where it did not go all the way through, so for good measure I did another heat from the other side, which let me put in enough extra on that side to leave a little fillet to give it a casting look. Very pleased with how it went, gives me confidence to do the same when adding the steam chest base to the side of the cylinders later.

Thanks!!
Chris

Looks good Chriis you have it plannned out well. When you do the steam chest make sure to tint it before soldering it to the cylinder. Any spots that you miss could effect the steam ports. That was a concern when I did mine but all came out well with good flow and penetration of the solder. Your teaching me new stuff with your setups.  :ThumbsUp: .......now did I say .........I..........like......... :Love:



 :drinking-41:
Don
Thats a good concern Don - couple questions about when you tinned the surface for yours:
- did you do both the cylinder face and the steam chest face, or just one?
- when you tinned, how did you spread the solder, or did it just flow around where the flux was? I have only used it in corner joints, never tried it on a wide surface. On the surface of the cylinder, seems like it would want to flow downhill mostly, but would need to get it along the straight line too somehow?
- when you reheated to join them, did you re-apply some flux, or just let the solder-tinned faces go against each other? Seems like some flux would be needed to keep it from oxidizing?
Thanks much for your help and encouragement also - help from all you guys has been great!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovelt
Post by: Don1966 on December 24, 2018, 01:26:46 AM
Chris I flux it good but cut small bits and spread it around the surface. Heat the part below the  area being tinned. Apply in areas that does get much to get even coverage. I only tinned the steam chest and after cleaned it in the pickler making sure to get a good clean surface. Something else I did to insure the I had good penatration was to place small smashed bits in the steam chest arc and flux it good. Once the part is heated the  solder will wick itself to the cylinder with a good flux coating. Then any spots you see on the sides apply solder to fill the gaps. One thing to make sure of is a good fit between the cylinder and the arc for the tinned surface to take to the cylinder. When the parts are good and hot and your happy apply pressure to the cylinder to push it into the arc for a good seat.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovelt
Post by: crueby on December 24, 2018, 01:30:50 AM
Chris I flux it good but cut small bits and spread it around the surface. Heat the part below the  area being tinned. Apply in areas that does get much to get even coverage. I only tinned the steam chest and after cleaned it in the pickler making sure to get a good clean surface. Something else I did to insure the I had good penatration was to place small smashed bits in the steam chest arc and flux it good. Once the part is heated the  solder will wick itself to the cylinder with a good flux coating. Then any spots you see on the sides apply solder to fill the gaps. One thing to make sure of is a good fit between the cylinder and the arc for the tinned surface to take to the cylinder. When the parts are good and hot and your happy apply pressure to the cylinder to push it into the arc for a good seat.

Don
Great - thanks!!  Sometime in the next week I will be doing the cylinder/steam chest base, this will help a lot.

Have a great Christmas!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on December 24, 2018, 02:49:31 AM
Thanks Chris Merry Christmas to you bud!   :cheers:


Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 24, 2018, 07:49:24 PM
This morning, the second trunk guide was bored/lapped out just like the first one. Then, while the rotary table was still set up for the bolt circle for the cylinder bolts, I turned/drilled the outer end caps.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hP7M1kbf/IMG-4101.jpg)
The center bump out is for the outside face, the inside is just flat on the top caps. Drilling them now ensures that the holes match the threaded ones in the trunk, and will let me use these caps later on to set up again for the cylinder and bottom caps.
After drilling, the first one was parted off, process repeated for the second one. Here they are:
(https://i.postimg.cc/CxT7PcmJ/IMG-4102.jpg)
Then, removed the rotary table and put the mill vise back on. Since I had turned the bases of the trunk guides to 3/4", I was able to hold the parts in the vise with a 3/4" collet and the square holding block. So, set it up, got the base square to the table (used a 3-2-1 block and some parallels underneath to sight to) and tightened up the collet. Then started milling in the recesses in the sides. I took several cuts from the outside of the part down to .050", then did the same on the opposite side, just in case the metal wanted to twist any from the rolling stresses in the steel. Repeated that back and forth till down to the final depth.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8zRHqLYG/IMG-4105.jpg)
There were thin bits of flash at the edges of the opening, those were smoothed off with a file. Then checked the passage for straightness with the bar I used to lap with, that went through nice and smooth still, so no bend.   :cartwheel:
One down, one to go:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Xvn83pMC/IMG-4107.jpg)
After the second one has the openings milled, I can drill the mount holes in the base plate and cut off the wide section at the rear of the base (the finished part will be as long as the base is). There is a crossways I-beam under the floor where the trunk goes, need to make sure that one set of the bolts at least goes into the flange on that beam for max strength.

Thanks for following along, everyone have a great Christmas!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 24, 2018, 08:01:21 PM
Here is a video that I had not seen in a while, someone kindly sent me a link this afternoon. It is a great one to show the sequence of how the digging works, and how the gearing/brakes/clutches work on the inside. Its from the Western Minnesota Steam Threshers Reunion, Rollag Minnesota.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1RgiN52TCg
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on December 24, 2018, 08:42:12 PM
First class work Dog and it looks a treat. Love the video!........ :ThumbsUp:



 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on December 24, 2018, 08:55:54 PM
That is one complex part, Chris!  And you got it done without any warping. That's impressive!
Interesting video too.
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Admiral_dk on December 24, 2018, 09:05:20 PM
Interesting video.

Ii must admit that I haven't thought that so many of the nicely detailed parts you're doing will be covered by the "house" over the operator (one of them anyway) - this seems quite a shame ....  :noidea:

Best wishes and a happy Xmas.

Per
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 24, 2018, 09:18:51 PM
Interesting video.

Ii must admit that I haven't thought that so many of the nicely detailed parts you're doing will be covered by the "house" over the operator (one of them anyway) - this seems quite a shame ....  :noidea:

Best wishes and a happy Xmas.

Per
The real one has big doors on the sides that show the machinery well, though I want to make most of the cab panels removable, both for show and for general access. I have not worked out how yet, lots of time before I have to build the cab frame! I do want to go with the red and black colors, with white lettering under the roof overhang for the Marion logo.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Admiral_dk on December 25, 2018, 06:22:28 PM
I like your colour choice as I'm sure it will look fantastic  :ThumbsUp:

 :cheers:     :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 25, 2018, 07:56:08 PM
I like your colour choice as I'm sure it will look fantastic  :ThumbsUp:

 :cheers:     :popcorn:
Thanks - pretty much like that one in the video at Rollag, but with the lettering along the eaves, which they show in their old catalogs.
Now, if I could just get them to move that museum farther east than Minnesota!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 25, 2018, 08:00:13 PM
Herb Crosby up at the logging museum sent around this link to a video of his brother Lew's old electric/steam powered displays he brings out at christmas. I would guess they are early Mamod? Fun stuff around the tree....
 :cheers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9UfejzTpn8
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on December 26, 2018, 04:14:50 PM
Interesting video.

Ii must admit that I haven't thought that so many of the nicely detailed parts you're doing will be covered by the "house" over the operator (one of them anyway) - this seems quite a shame ....  :noidea:

Best wishes and a happy Xmas.

Per
The real one has big doors on the sides that show the machinery well, though I want to make most of the cab panels removable, both for show and for general access. I have not worked out how yet, lots of time before I have to build the cab frame! I do want to go with the red and black colors, with white lettering under the roof overhang for the Marion logo.

Hi Chris, I enjoyed the video of Lew's display, it was great to see! thanks for posting it.

Re painting - when your shop elves paint, do they use tiny brushes or do you trust them with a sprayer? (I just had a mental picture of a nicely finished car or truck in your driveway spray painted black on top with Marion red sides!)  :naughty:

PS black on top seems like a good plan on the originals with coal firing. It would be no joke to keep a white or light coloured roof clean with coal smoke and cinders!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 26, 2018, 04:27:50 PM
Interesting video.

Ii must admit that I haven't thought that so many of the nicely detailed parts you're doing will be covered by the "house" over the operator (one of them anyway) - this seems quite a shame ....  :noidea:

Best wishes and a happy Xmas.

Per
The real one has big doors on the sides that show the machinery well, though I want to make most of the cab panels removable, both for show and for general access. I have not worked out how yet, lots of time before I have to build the cab frame! I do want to go with the red and black colors, with white lettering under the roof overhang for the Marion logo.

Hi Chris, I enjoyed the video of Lew's display, it was great to see! thanks for posting it.

Re painting - when your shop elves paint, do they use tiny brushes or do you trust them with a sprayer? (I just had a mental picture of a nicely finished car or truck in your driveway spray painted black on top with Marion red sides!)  :naughty:

PS black on top seems like a good plan on the originals with coal firing. It would be no joke to keep a white or light coloured roof clean with coal smoke and cinders!
Oh hell no, never trust the elves with a sprayer! Think 3 stooges scene...   :o
My cars are already a nice deep red, convertable has a black top too, so no need to get them near either...
Here is a b/w pic from the old catalogs showing how the lettering was done under the roof:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ydjxRcHX/Page-015.jpg)
I dont have any color photos from the day, but the b/w ones show that the roof was probably grey, would not be as hot inside as a black one, and not show the soot/dirt as bad. Judging from the photos, it was a lighter color, but its hard to go backwards from b/w. I am thinking a nice barn red for the sides, black for the frames/booms like I have it now on the model, some shade of battleship grey for the roof. The lettering would be white. I will add the number 3 in a circle like the Leroy shovel had.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on December 26, 2018, 04:50:29 PM
Great photo Chris and I really like the Marion under-eave lettering. Shows pride in what they were building!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 26, 2018, 08:17:28 PM
Some more time back in the shop today, the second crosshead trunk is milled through on the sides,
(https://i.postimg.cc/wTbvDZf1/IMG-4108.jpg)
and the base plates have been drilled for the bolts to hold them to the floor/beams:
(https://i.postimg.cc/QNmVdHck/IMG-4109.jpg)
With the shaping done, the excess bits at the back ends were cut off, and the cut faces cleaned up on the sander. The offcuts look to be big enough to get the rear caps out of as well, once the remnants of the bored holes are turned back.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QMcdGtX7/IMG-4113.jpg)
I did some testing with the con rods, and after a slight bell-mouthing of the very end of the openings everything clears while turning the cranks over.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fRGRrXhZ/IMG-4110.jpg)
A shot of the machinery space so far,
(https://i.postimg.cc/zGbf7760/IMG-4115.jpg)
and the whole front end:
(https://i.postimg.cc/YqS0GM3c/IMG-4114.jpg)
I got the blanks cut out for the cylinders and steam chest bases, so can start shaping them down to size. I will use a similar method as was done on the trunks, with the main section turned to OD, then the base shaped on the mill to fit. These will be slightly more complex, since the ends of the cylinders get wider to form the end flanges, so the base will need to have a pair of notches at either end to match them. A new set of boring bars for the boring head on the mill are due in tomorrow, these are cobalt steel and the longest ones in the set are long enough to do the steam chest base arcs, so I dont have to use the carbide tipped one again, hoping for a better finish. These bases will be shorter as well so a shorted boring bar will work on them.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on December 26, 2018, 08:51:37 PM
I just love to see shit take shape those turned out great very well executed and thought out. Damn Dog .....I..........like.........  :Love:


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 26, 2018, 09:34:15 PM
I just love to see shit take shape those turned out great very well executed and thought out. Damn Dog .....I..........like.........  :Love:


 :cheers:
Don
Thanks Don! I am sitting back with the elves and admiring the whole thing... Hey, you on the end, pass the cookies back this way!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on December 26, 2018, 09:42:18 PM
Just a left of center question Chris for 2019......have you calculated :happyreader:  the 'volume' of steam consumption at even the low side of scale function/speed?

Looking back a the Video from Christmas Eve.....the functions appear as singular or sequenced.....so which function has the greater volume/speed?

1. lower the boom [with closed bucket]
2. hoist the bucket [trough the arc] to fill the bucket
3. lift the boom
4. slew
5. open the bucket

Another question....was the boom appears to accelerate when lowered however exhaust steam is seen.....so assisted by gravity? [or driven down under brake band friction?]
___________________________________

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 26, 2018, 09:56:33 PM
Just a left of center question Chris for 2019......have you calculated :happyreader:  the 'volume' of steam consumption at even the low side of scale function/speed?

Derek
]
Hi Derek,

Short answer: Nope!

Longer answers: When the team was up from Steam Town a little over a year ago looking at the shovel, they remarked on how small the boiler was compared to the one on a locomotive with similar size main engines, but the fact that it is doing short runs and stopping vs long all-day running on a locomotive, it made sense, the boiler would have to deliver a smaller average flow. The original ran at around 125 psi, I usually set up my models at 60.


I figured that I would get a better idea of the volume needed once the hoist engine was running, compared to the engines on the Lombard or the Shay models which have much smaller bores and strokes. It is possible that the volume needed will be more than a boiler at the scale size can deliver, but not much I can do about that while keeping the parts to scale other than sleeve the cylinders down for smaller pistons. If it turns out to need a larger boiler, then I will just run it on air, and make the boiler a dummy shell that looks like the original. Not as much fun, but so it goes. Guess I'll have a better idea in a few weeks.

If you know how and want to run the numbers, the main engines are 3/4" bore, 1" stroke, double acting twin cylinders. The boiler would be a 3.75" main tube, about 9" long plus firebox. If I made it working, it would be a butane fired single firetube style.

Chris :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 27, 2018, 07:51:12 PM
Well, I was going to start on the cylinders and steam chest bases today, but the tracking shows the new boring bars wont be here till this evening, so I am skipping ahead to the crossheads for now.
I started with a bar of 932 bearing bronze, which comes as a rough extrusion so I trued it up (sized to fit a 25/32" collet for next step) and turned the end to fit the trunk guide. A 1/4" hole was drilled in the end to be a starter for the con rod hole, and it was drilled/tapped the rest of the way for a M4 thread to take the end of the piston rod.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9Q4jxjH7/IMG-4117.jpg)
Moved it over to the mill, with a collet holding it in the square holder (those collets/holders are very handy, keeps the part aligned through multiple steps very well). I marked the side of the holder for the angle so I could go back and forth to open up the center. With a small end mill, I cut out one side at a time down to the depth of the 1/4" hole.
(https://i.postimg.cc/VvsxnxF5/IMG-4119.jpg)
Once that was done, the collet was stood up straight and the sides milled off to give room for the cross bolt and nut.
(https://i.postimg.cc/T3ZvFHTH/IMG-4120.jpg)
Then the hole for the cross bolt was drilled - here it is being checked to make sure the con rod will pivot all the way to both sides. Once a couple of stray chips were pulled out, it did.   ::)
(https://i.postimg.cc/zD0Z8fJh/IMG-4122.jpg)
Now back over to the lathe to form the ends, which are undercut a bit. This was done with a small boring bar at the base.

(https://i.postimg.cc/C5vWNcv7/IMG-4124.jpg)
Then the piece was parted off, leaving a small post around the piston rod hole to take the jam nut on the rod.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rpx2kCmy/IMG-4125.jpg)
Then the piece was chucked up in the 4-jaw with some aluminum scraps to protect the bearing surface, and the recess cut in at that end.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MTw2KMM7/IMG-4129.jpg)
Here is the first part in the trunk, just needs the cross pin to hold it on the con rod.
(https://i.postimg.cc/7Yhv6y6W/IMG-4130.jpg)
With the first one done, the second went pretty quick now that I knew the steps. I will probably make up the cross pins next, then start on the cylinders tomorrow.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Admiral_dk on December 27, 2018, 08:24:07 PM
Looks good, but also very tight between the rod and guide  :thinking:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on December 27, 2018, 08:33:56 PM
Looking  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: Chris. What clearance did you leave between trunk guides and crosshead shoes? Is there a way to get some oil to the crosshead top shoe? (other than a squirt upwards with the oil can, the old upworts gespritzen). I only mention it as I built a mill type horizontal engine a long time ago with a similar trunk guide and painted it before thinking to add an oil cup in a tapped hole above the top crosshead shoe (none was on the plans - std. dumb excuse #35 on my part). It wore quickly even with upworts gespritzen of oil.

Hope the elves have sobered up a bit.  :naughty:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 27, 2018, 08:51:14 PM
Looks good, but also very tight between the rod and guide  :thinking:
There is ample clearance once the cross pin is in place. In the picture the rod and guide are not aligned, just slid into place the rod end is above the center hole, it wont hit.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 27, 2018, 08:53:09 PM
Looking  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: Chris. What clearance did you leave between trunk guides and crosshead shoes? Is there a way to get some oil to the crosshead top shoe? (other than a squirt upwards with the oil can, the old upworts gespritzen). I only mention it as I built a mill type horizontal engine a long time ago with a similar trunk guide and painted it before thinking to add an oil cup in a tapped hole above the top crosshead shoe (none was on the plans - std. dumb excuse #35 on my part). It wore quickly even with upworts gespritzen of oil.

Hope the elves have sobered up a bit.  :naughty:
Good point about an oil hole, I keep forgetting that all the brass bits on the real one were removed decades ago so they are not there to remind me. Will at least need a hole there, thanks!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 27, 2018, 09:57:30 PM
Made up the cross pins (wrist pins?) - simple shoulder bolts, threaded 5-40 at the end.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zBRfgR0V/IMG-4131.jpg)
And assembled the crossheads on the model for motion test:
(https://i.postimg.cc/3N5xCJc9/IMG-4133.jpg)
And a quick video to prove it works - note that the trunks are not screwed down yet, and I need to drill the oil hole as CNR noted:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OavzRC7jMA
You can tell by the sound that there is no oil or grease in any of that mechanism yet, the tubes ring pretty good! But, no binding or knocking, so it should be good to go.   :)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 27, 2018, 10:23:33 PM
And the new boring bars just got here, so tomorrow I can test out how the long one works on the steam chest base curve, see how it compares to the tipped one I used on the trunk bases. 
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 28, 2018, 12:47:05 AM
Ah, well, you know how it goes when a new tool shows up, just can't wait for tomorrow to see how it works... So, had to try out the cobalt steel boring bar on the steam chest base. As you recall I had issues with the cheap Knockoffium carbide tipped bar chattering a lot making the cuts on the trunk bases, and ordered a better set the other day. Here is one of the cylinder blanks I turned up the other day, turned to OD with the end flange steps cut in, used a parting tool to square up the inside corners so I could get a good fit all the way along the sufaces with the base since there will be steam passages across that interface.

(https://i.postimg.cc/8zpM6D9L/IMG-4116.jpg)

So, tonight I set up the new boring bar in the boring head, and used an offcut disc of brass from the parts bin to set the head up to a diameter to match the cylinder. That cut went nice and smooth, so I was optimistic for the rest.

(https://i.postimg.cc/P5SZb9n9/IMG-4135.jpg)

With the diameter set and locked in on the boring head, I put a 1" square bar in the mill vise to cut the steam chest base from. The finished part needs a minimum bar to cut from about 5/8" thick and 1" wide, and the 1" square was the closest I had on hand. The base will have a 1/8" tall pipe flange out one side, so the table was adjusted to put the bar 1/8" back from centered on the boring head.
I started out just like on the trunk base, with the boring bar just making contact with the stock, and taking 5 to 8 thou vertical passes off the stock. This time, no chatter at all, it left a very nice finish on the stock.

(https://i.postimg.cc/TPhbt0Rw/IMG-4136.jpg)

 :cartwheel:

(https://i.postimg.cc/k4bbm5RP/IMG-4137.jpg)

And the fit against the cylinder blanks is very good - I cannot lay them flat till I cut the larger OD recesses in the ends, but it looks like the cut is very clean - on the other parts with the other Crapide tip cutter the arc was not that even - good enough to do the job, but barely.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Ls71wPXV/IMG-4138.jpg)


Very happy with this result. I dont have any good quality carbide tip boring bars, the cheap set I bought years ago looks like it has a fairly large grain to the carbide, and the shank is probably some SillyPuttyum-rubber alloy too. I'll let the squirrels use those bars as fence posts or something.


So, tomorrow I'll cut the other blank to the same stage, then up the diameter of the cut to form the end recesses - I won't want to move the table from where it is front to back to go over to the test piece again, so I'll adjust the boring head in place on the top of the blank. The blanks are about 1/4" longer than the finished parts, so there is some room for testing on the top ends. To cut the recess on the bottom end, the parts will be flipped over and clamped in the left side of the vise, so the alignment will stay even.

Thanks to you all for the advise this past week!   :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on December 28, 2018, 05:14:22 AM
Chris....the old adage 'all's well that ends well' is the moral of the story :ThumbsUp: ,

.......however I have not heard of 'fairly large grain to the carbide' , [and the shank is probably some SillyPuttyum-rubber alloy]

So, do you have a robust bench grinder with a silicone carbide wheel set for grinding your carbide tipped tools?

Derek

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Roger B on December 28, 2018, 08:09:23 AM
So much progress since I last looked in  :praise2:  :praise2: Excellent  :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 28, 2018, 01:55:32 PM
Chris....the old adage 'all's well that ends well' is the moral of the story :ThumbsUp: ,

.......however I have not heard of 'fairly large grain to the carbide' , [and the shank is probably some SillyPuttyum-rubber alloy]

So, do you have a robust bench grinder with a silicone carbide wheel set for grinding your carbide tipped tools?

Derek
Well, if you are dealing with cemented carbide tips, which most cheap ones are rather than solid carbide, this is a great backgrounder:
https://www.destinytool.com/carbide-substrate.html
I do have a good lower-speed grinder with the different wheels each side, and put as good an edge on that tool as I could.
As for the shank, it definitely was not high-grade Unobtanium, more the garden-variety Cheapium!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 28, 2018, 01:56:11 PM
So much progress since I last looked in  :praise2: :praise2: Excellent  :wine1:
Thanks Roger! :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 28, 2018, 06:37:32 PM
This morning I got the other base cut with the main arc, just like the first. Then readjusted the boring head out to match the wider flange on the cylinders, and got the first end cut on both:
(https://i.postimg.cc/m2QMgPPV/IMG-4139.jpg)
Then turned the part around and did the second end - flipping the part and coming from the other side ensured that the center of the arcs matched up, important since they are offset from the middle of the block to leave room on one side to mill in the exhaust flange.

(https://i.postimg.cc/rwjr57Cr/IMG-4140.jpg)
The parts so far, fitting very well:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Sxk92m84/IMG-4141.jpg)
The excess length of the bases at the one end will get trimmed off, then will turn in the exhaust pipe flange on one side, and take the blocks back to final thickness before silver soldering them to the cylinder blanks. Quite happy with the results so far!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on December 28, 2018, 08:00:04 PM
Excellent results Chris they look great!    :ThumbsUp:


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on December 28, 2018, 08:07:05 PM
Certainly great progress....I wondered if a camera angle contributed to the perceived off axis bore  :facepalm:

Thanks for the :happyreader: link to Cemented Carbides......we learn each day......

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 28, 2018, 08:10:05 PM
Certainly great progress....I wondered if a camera angle contributed to the perceived off axis bore  :facepalm:

Thanks for the :happyreader: link to Cemented Carbides......we learn each day......

Derek
Yup - the bore on the bases IS off center, but on purpose to allow turning in the pipe flange (just did that, about to post pics). At first I was going to be ultra-careful to make one offset left and one right, till I realized that the base parts at this stage are totally symmetrical, and just rotating one of an identical pair works too.   ::)
 :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 28, 2018, 08:20:10 PM
This afternoon got the ends of the bases trimmed back to approximate size (left long to trim with cylinders after soldering), and also cut off the excess on the side away from the curved cut to take it down closer to thickness. Since the excess was fairly thick (due to only having 1" thick square bar, no 5/8"x1"), I sawed off the bulk of it (slabs visible on back left) before trueing up on the mill. The slabs will come in handy for something, assuming the elves dont make a bar for the rec room out of them. The parts are still a bit thick, leaving room to trim them after soldering, dont want to worry about nicks in them at this stage since that is the valve surface.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Jhr8f2XM/IMG-4142.jpg)

So, last shaping step for now is to trim the sides to form the exhaust pipe flanges. Did this on the lathe, with the part in the 4-jaw. The edge of the arc was protected with some aluminum scrap, and most of the holding was done with the jaws on the long axis, the short axis ones were not tightened too much. To keep things in place, I also used the live center at the end of the boss being turned in, and took light cuts.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Jhp8M53J/IMG-4143.jpg)
Here are the parts so far, I think ready for silver soldering together. I am going to try Don's method this time, pretinning the curve on the bases, cleaning the bases and re-fluxing, then heating again to flow them together.

(https://i.postimg.cc/PxNjxvK7/IMG-4145.jpg)

Now, since the bases are of brass, is it okay to use bronze for the valve sliders, or are brass/bronze too similar? Should I use steel for the sliders instead? I know it is bad to use the same metal for both sides of a moving joint, but I dont remember how different they need to be. Will look that one up...

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gbritnell on December 28, 2018, 10:19:27 PM
Hi Chris,
I don't know if there's a perfect combination I just always make sure that I use two diiferent metals. I know that 12L14 machines nice but I don't use it that much any more because of its tendancy to rust.
I now use 1144 for most applications. It also machines nicely.
gbritnell


Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 28, 2018, 10:36:43 PM
Hi Chris,
I don't know if there's a perfect combination I just always make sure that I use two diiferent metals. I know that 12L14 machines nice but I don't use it that much any more because of its tendancy to rust.
I now use 1144 for most applications. It also machines nicely.
gbritnell
Thanks George, I think to be safe I will use some of the 303 stainless for the slider, I know that combination works. I want to pick up some 1144 to try, see how it compares to the 303. Only drawback seems be that it isn't available in as many sizes and shapes, at least at the suppliers I have looked at.


This evening I got the bases tinned and cleaned up. To spread the molten solder evenly across the surface I used a long bit of thin flat stock, otherwise it would have been spotty coverage. After cleaning up, put on a layer of flux on both sides, set the cylinder on the base, and set it spanning two firebricks. The dimmer light this evening helped judge the temperature of each piece, both heavy but different, played the torch around both so the got hot evely, and when the solder remelted gave the parts a squeeze together with some long channel-lock pliers. Currently cooling, wont know for sure till they are cleaned up but it looks good so far...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 29, 2018, 01:10:59 AM
All righty - the parts have had a nice soak in the pickle, and a good wire brushing under running water - all looks good so far.

Here are the bases tinned - solder surface is lumpy but good coverage which is what counts (I hope):
(https://i.postimg.cc/Yq63srwG/IMG-4146.jpg)
And the parts after re-fluxing and re-heating to melt the solder again when the parts were together:
(https://i.postimg.cc/W1snRB29/IMG-4148.jpg)
They appear to have seated tightly to each other, hard to tell how good the seal is until the passages are drilled across the joint. I guess if there is any seepage at that point I could always flow some soft solder in there to seal up any tiny gaps, the hard solder is holding everything structurally. This is the first time I have tried this technique, so far it looks okay, should be able to proceed with the shaping. The cylinder needs to be bored out, in the same chucking I will face the outer ends (which will become the face for the base cap and trunk guide) and drill the mounting holes through the end. The end where the stub is to hold in the chuck will be cut off and cleaned up last, that end will get the end cap which is not critical to have perfectly square to the bore like the base is.
Thanks again to all who gave tips/techniques!!   :cheers: :cheers:


Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on December 29, 2018, 02:23:35 AM
Yep! The technique is called 'sweating' the parts together. When everything fits it works much better than trying to wick solder in for long distances.

Congratulations!!!  :cartwheel:

 :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 29, 2018, 02:41:54 AM
Yep! The technique is called 'sweating' the parts together. When everything fits it works much better than trying to wick solder in for long distances.

Congratulations!!!  :cartwheel:

 :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:

Pete
Ah, I had heard the term used in plumbing, never knew what it really meant. Gotta love learning new (to me) techniques! Keeps opening new possibilities...  The slew/crowd/steering engines will likely use this too, the frames and cylinders on those are one complex lump of shapes.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on December 29, 2018, 03:17:36 AM
That's why I love this board/forum!! Not only can I share what little I know but the folks here keep adding to my store of knowledge! Watching the builds has exposed me to stuff I never encountered in my work life!

I'm not in a position to be building much now but I hope that will change in the new year..

 :happyreader:

Thanks,
Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on December 29, 2018, 08:08:37 AM
Hello Chris,

I enjoy your ingenuity how to machine various parts as much as the completed unit. Beautiful workmanship on this project.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gbritnell on December 29, 2018, 11:34:52 AM
Great results Chris!
gbritnell
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on December 29, 2018, 02:59:05 PM
Well Chris it looks like you did it correctly the parts seem to have good coverage. Good fluxing insures that the solder will wick itself to the cylinder. Looks good Dog!.... :ThumbsUp:


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 29, 2018, 08:52:53 PM
Thanks guys, very glad to have you all along helping/watching along!
Today saw the start of boring out the cylinders. Started with the first one trued up in the 4-jaw using the dial indicator, and added a counterwieght just like on the trunks (different size, same idea) to get rid of any vibration from the off-center mass. Drilled the starter hole...
(https://i.postimg.cc/9Qj5LJZB/IMG-4150.jpg)
and proceeded to take it out to size with the small boring bar. Since the hole is much shorter than the trunk the overhang on the bar was a lot less, and the small bar worked fine all the way out. Well, aside from having to stop regularly and clean out the furballs of chips! This piece must be part cat...
(https://i.postimg.cc/HsM10fcx/IMG-4151.jpg)
Anyway, the bore came out pretty clean, will get some lapping to finish it off.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XqRSSgh4/IMG-4152.jpg)
Also took a facing pass on the outer end to take it down to final width of the flange, and clean up the end of the steam trunk base as well.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FF8QL9K8/IMG-4153.jpg)
While the loctite is curing on the bore lap pieces, I went over to the mill and set up the rotary table again. Using one of the caps made at the same time as the trunks as a guide, reset the position of the table and locked it down again.

(https://i.postimg.cc/7ZMvd0Nr/IMG-4154.jpg)
And then put the 4-jaw with the cylinder still in place on the rotary table and spot drilled for the through-bolt holes. This operation is a little nerve-wracking, a wandering drill at this stage would be very bad. The first hole went fine, pecking at it to clear chips and add oil along the way, so the rest should as well.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Y0GKsPdd/IMG-4155.jpg)
Good place to take a break....  More on it tomorrow!


Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 29, 2018, 10:27:04 PM
Still watching Chris. You're doing a great job. You have a great "sticking with it" approach to your projects. I admire that.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 29, 2018, 10:42:33 PM
Thanks Brian!  I love a good challenge, having a ball with this one.




Just got sent this video link, a truly awesome model of an Erie 50, hope mine works this well!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4y2GOd7ru8

Here is his website
http://www.ferroviefelettane.it
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on December 29, 2018, 11:16:47 PM
Hello Chris,

That is super cool and love all those sounds.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 29, 2018, 11:32:26 PM
Forgot to mention - in the video, it looks like he held the side panels and roof on the model with magnets to the frame - great way to do it, have to see if I can do the same. Those little rare earth magnets are easy to get these days, would be an easy way to hold the panels on but allow removal for access to the inside.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 30, 2018, 12:55:37 AM
Chris--I used rare earth magnets to keep the crankcase cover in place on the opposed twin i.c. engine I built. They work very well. In addition to covering the revolving crankshaft and camshaft, they eliminated the rattling that would normally be heard with a cover just setting in place.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 30, 2018, 05:17:28 PM
Chris--I used rare earth magnets to keep the crankcase cover in place on the opposed twin i.c. engine I built. They work very well. In addition to covering the revolving crankshaft and camshaft, they eliminated the rattling that would normally be heard with a cover just setting in place.
I recall seeing the magnets at my local WoodCraft store (on a peg well away from all the other tools so they didnt keep jumping over), have to stop in there and play... I mean just go in and look at that one thing.... Yeah, right, always wind up buying a bagfull of stuff!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 30, 2018, 05:29:05 PM
This morning I got the rest of the holes drilled through the cylinder side walls, lots of backing out to remove chips and add a drop of oil...
(https://i.postimg.cc/15cPVc0g/IMG-4156.jpg)

Then put it back on the lathe to lap the bore (could have done this before drilling the holes, but I was waiting for the loctite on the lap bar to set up) with some Timesavers compound.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9Qm2dR1L/IMG-4157.jpg)

Then time to find out how straight the holes drilled - sawed off the excess material used to hold the part in the chuck, and faced off the end smooth - this end will be at the top cap, so the alignment is not as critical as it was for the base cap end. Since the part would not go in the chuck centered, I left it off center - same result. The holes are all nicely spaced and line up nicely, so that is a relief!
(https://i.postimg.cc/TPhXszzm/IMG-4158.jpg)

A little deburring, and here is the cylinder so far:
(https://i.postimg.cc/2S0D2kKr/IMG-4159.jpg)

Could not resist cutting out some studs and test fitting on the trunk - slides together very well!   :whoohoo:   

(https://i.postimg.cc/0N3q1tv4/IMG-4165.jpg)
Left a gap between the cylinder and the trunk, that is where the base cap will go once it is made.So, one cylinder bored and drilled, one to go. Then can start on the base caps, get those made and drilled while the rotary table is at the proper distance from center. I am glad I left the extra material on the valve faces, they are getting a bit marked up with all the handling and clamping - they will be trimmed back when cutting the ports. Very good start on the cylinders, still a fair ways to go on them. Time for lunch though!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Stuart on December 30, 2018, 05:43:25 PM
Chris

Watch out for those rare earth magnets for boiler house roof the loose the magnetism at a lowish temp and do not regain it fully

How do I know

Well Linda got a cover for the bottom of the oven (domestic) so how to fix it down as the fan lifted it up , so Stuart the bright spark had some magnets in the shed so ten went it to hold it down all was well at first then I noticed that the cover was flapping in the breeze note oven was at160 c fished it out and they were completely non magnetic only got back to 25% when cold

So watch the temps

Happy new year to you and yours not forgetting your elf’s
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 30, 2018, 05:49:59 PM
Chris

Watch out for those rare earth magnets for boiler house roof the loose the magnetism at a lowish temp and do not regain it fully

How do I know

Well Linda got a cover for the bottom of the oven (domestic) so how to fix it down as the fan lifted it up , so Stuart the bright spark had some magnets in the shed so ten went it to hold it down all was well at first then I noticed that the cover was flapping in the breeze note oven was at160 c fished it out and they were completely non magnetic only got back to 25% when cold

So watch the temps

Happy new year to you and yours not forgetting your elf’s
Hi Stuart - thanks for the warning, had no idea that temperature would effect them. Just did a search on that, and found this nice summary at a manufacturer site:

Quote
Tube Magnets manufactured with high quality Neodymium Magnets are able to operate well in temperatures up to 212 degrees F.  There is a gradual drop in magnetic strength when the temperature rises above 176 degrees F, but this loss in magnetic strength recovers when the temperature falls back to normal levels. However, as soon as the Neodymium Rare Earth Tube Magnets are exposed to temperatures exceeding 212 degrees F, the magnetic strength becomes compromised.  On returning to normal operating temperatures below 176 degrees F, there is an irreversible loss in magnetic strength and permanent damage.


Sounds like I would be okay for the walls/roof, as long as I place them at the ends away from the boiler, it will help that the cab has several large doors down the sides to give air flow.


 :cheers:

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 30, 2018, 05:58:06 PM
Additional info on the magnets, was searching around more, and the ceramic magnets, while not as strong as the rare earth ones, can take about double the heat before demagnetizing. Interesting stuff!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on December 30, 2018, 06:11:02 PM
Hi Chris, the rare earth neodymium magnets have another unpleasant property I found out the hard way - even the plated ones and the plastic coated ones will corrode fast in water (dripped on or immersed) and when they corrode they expand and break up. The firm I bought them from confirmed water exposure does cause corrosion issues on most such magnets. The corrosion hasn't happened to any such magnets I have in the workshop where it's dry, but near a water tank or with steam condensing on them as in the shovel model I'd be concerned it may happen. If you place them so they can be changed easily any trouble could be more easily fixed with magnet replacements.  Not sure if the corrosion happens with samarium cobalt ones or ceramic ones but it sure does with any neodymium iron boron ones I have tried in or near water. Just a word to the wise from life experience.

Your cylinder work looks great! Liked the mock up w studs picture. Standing by with  :popcorn:

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 30, 2018, 06:20:58 PM
Hi Chris, the rare earth neodymium magnets have another unpleasant property I found out the hard way - even the plated ones and the plastic coated ones will corrode fast in water (dripped on or immersed) and when they corrode they expand and break up. The firm I bought them from confirmed water exposure does cause corrosion issues on most such magnets. The corrosion hasn't happened to any such magnets I have in the workshop where it's dry, but near a water tank or with steam condensing on them as in the shovel model I'd be concerned it may happen. If you place them so they can be changed easily any trouble could be more easily fixed with magnet replacements.  Not sure if the corrosion happens with samarium cobalt ones or ceramic ones but it sure does with any neodymium iron boron ones I have tried in or near water. Just a word to the wise from life experience.

Your cylinder work looks great! Liked the mock up w studs picture. Standing by with  :popcorn:
Good to know! Maybe the ceramic ones would be a better choice for this application - dont need super high strength to hold a thin sheet panel in place, the ceramic type fridge magnets would be enough. Could glue them to the sheet brass, have them stick to a steel plate or frame piece.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: JC54 on December 30, 2018, 10:02:56 PM
Chris, just a quick comment as a learner machinist. When you lapped the cylinders you remarked about drilling stud holes and then lapping. On my first little steam engine I lapped the cylinder and then drilled/tapped holes for endcap and found in brass that it "bulged" into the bore.. :facepalm: I had to relap? so now make that my last process if possible.  :old: :DrinkPint:  JC
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 30, 2018, 10:09:08 PM
Chris, just a quick comment as a learner machinist. When you lapped the cylinders you remarked about drilling stud holes and then lapping. On my first little steam engine I lapped the cylinder and then drilled/tapped holes for endcap and found in brass that it "bulged" into the bore.. :facepalm: I had to relap? so now make that my last process if possible.  :old: :DrinkPint:  JC
Hi JC,  I have had that happen if the holes got too close to the side wall, fortunately on this cylinder the wall is thick enough to keep the hole away from the sides. Sounds like on yours you were lucky not to break through when drilling. I was worried about that on mine, if the drill wandered it might have done that.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 31, 2018, 12:09:30 AM
Really got on a roll in the shop today, got the other cylinder up to the same point as the first. Started with drilling/boring the blank:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Cxwwbj8Q/IMG-4166.jpg)
And faced off the end which will mate with the base cap and crosshead trunk:
(https://i.postimg.cc/pT5vPkNp/IMG-4167.jpg)
Then lapped the bore. This time I tried some of the diamond lapping paste - think it went quicker than the timesavers compound, though it needs more careful cleanup to remove any residue - timewise its a wash. Then moved the chuck over to the mill and drilled the through-bolt holes around the perimeter:
(https://i.postimg.cc/t4DpkYtC/IMG-4170.jpg)
With all that done, took it to the bandsaw and lopped off the excess at the top end. To clean up that end, this time I realized that it would just fit in the 3-jaw, so I used that to face off the end smooth and to final length:
(https://i.postimg.cc/1XxQX6PM/IMG-4171.jpg)
A little deburring around the holes, and here are the two cylinders so far:
(https://i.postimg.cc/6Qmwsgmk/IMG-4172.jpg)
Next I will get the base caps turned and drilled, while the rotary table is set up for the right diameter for the perimeter bolt holes, after they are done I can come back and work on the steam chest base some more. Lots done today, time to go watch movies with the shop elves (their turn to make the popcorn).
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on December 31, 2018, 05:25:46 AM
You sure we're on a roll!  :)
Your cylinders are looking might nice there, Chris!  :popcorn:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 31, 2018, 08:48:20 AM
Thanks Kim, very happy with the progress!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on December 31, 2018, 06:37:03 PM
Since I have the rotary table all locked in for the perimeter bolts on the cylinder assembly, figured that I would get the base caps turned out as well. Started by turning the side towards the cylinder to OD, also put in a small lip to align it to the cylinder, and drilled the piston rod hole. The hole is slightly larger than the piston rod, so that the packing will do the sealing, and the rod does not rub on the hole, the piston head and the crosshead guide will keep it aligned to the cylinder. I used the base offcut from making the cylinders to make the caps from, just had to turn off the remnants of the cylinder bore.

(https://i.postimg.cc/nLK7Hjx6/IMG-4173.jpg)
Moved the chuck over to the rotab and drilled the bolt holes...
(https://i.postimg.cc/bJzndyNd/IMG-4174.jpg)
Then parted the cap off from the rod and reversed it in the chuck with a scrap gear behind it to keep it straight in the chuck while tightening it - just large enough it can't fly out from the jaws. Then turned the second side to thickness, and with an OD on the end to match the end of the trunk bore. The hole on this side was opened up to be a close fit on a viton o-ring that will be used for the seal.

(https://i.postimg.cc/SsDMMBJd/IMG-4175.jpg)
A gland plate will be made to press into the o ring in the hole. This plate and the small end of the cap will be milled oblong later on, and two more small tapped holes added for the screws to hold the gland in place.
Here is the first cylinder assembly so far, all bolted up to test. The final studs will be sized to protrude from the nuts a couple threads once all the gaskets are in place. So far, looking good!
(https://i.postimg.cc/cCC8MF3S/IMG-4176.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: fumopuc on December 31, 2018, 07:31:03 PM
Hi Chris, it is coming nicely together.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on December 31, 2018, 07:45:47 PM
Since I have the rotary table all locked in for the perimeter bolts on the cylinder assembly, figured that I would get the base caps turned out as well. Started by turning the side towards the cylinder to OD, also put in a small lip to align it to the cylinder, and drilled the piston rod hole. The hole is slightly larger than the piston rod, so that the packing will do the sealing, and the rod does not rub on the hole, the piston head and the crosshead guide will keep it aligned to the cylinder. I used the base offcut from making the cylinders to make the caps from, just had to turn off the remnants of the cylinder bore.

(https://i.postimg.cc/SsDMMBJd/IMG-4175.jpg)
A gland plate will be made to press into the o ring in the hole. This plate and the small end of the cap will be milled oblong later on, and two more small tapped holes added for the screws to hold the gland in place.
Here is the first cylinder assembly so far, all bolted up to test. The final studs will be sized to protrude from the nuts a couple threads once all the gaskets are in place. So far, looking good!
(https://i.postimg.cc/cCC8MF3S/IMG-4176.jpg)

Hello Chris,

Studying the second photo, I cannot believe how much work and parts you have made since the Gear Guards were made and installed. Seems like a long time ago.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on December 31, 2018, 11:09:33 PM
So at this rate you'll be finished by.... Friday ?   :praise2:  :ROFL:

All kidding aside, I'm really enjoying this build.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 01, 2019, 01:39:46 AM
So at this rate you'll be finished by.... Friday ?   :praise2: :ROFL:

All kidding aside, I'm really enjoying this build.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Naw, Thursday!   ::)
Not saying which Thursday...  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 01, 2019, 01:42:37 AM
Since I have the rotary table all locked in for the perimeter bolts on the cylinder assembly, figured that I would get the base caps turned out as well. Started by turning the side towards the cylinder to OD, also put in a small lip to align it to the cylinder, and drilled the piston rod hole. The hole is slightly larger than the piston rod, so that the packing will do the sealing, and the rod does not rub on the hole, the piston head and the crosshead guide will keep it aligned to the cylinder. I used the base offcut from making the cylinders to make the caps from, just had to turn off the remnants of the cylinder bore.

(https://i.postimg.cc/SsDMMBJd/IMG-4175.jpg)
A gland plate will be made to press into the o ring in the hole. This plate and the small end of the cap will be milled oblong later on, and two more small tapped holes added for the screws to hold the gland in place.
Here is the first cylinder assembly so far, all bolted up to test. The final studs will be sized to protrude from the nuts a couple threads once all the gaskets are in place. So far, looking good!
(https://i.postimg.cc/cCC8MF3S/IMG-4176.jpg)

Hello Chris,

Studying the second photo, I cannot believe how much work and parts you have made since the Gear Guards were made and installed. Seems like a long time ago.

Have a great day,
Thomas
I had to go back and look - the guards were back in mid-October, right around the 1-year mark on the build! Been quite a ride so far!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 01, 2019, 01:43:27 AM
Hi Chris, it is coming nicely together.
Thanks Achim!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on January 01, 2019, 06:21:53 AM
Hi Chris,
 Is it just me but every day it’s another page.... :thinking:

At this rate another 10 pages should see you out digging snow!
Hope you aren’t over working the elves......mind you I guess they have time off from there other job for a month or two.....

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 02, 2019, 04:09:51 PM
Hi Chris,
 Is it just me but every day it’s another page.... :thinking:

At this rate another 10 pages should see you out digging snow!
Hope you aren’t over working the elves......mind you I guess they have time off from there other job for a month or two.....

Cheers Kerrin
Well, you can change your messages-to-display-per-page in your forum profile to 50 rather than the default 15 and save a few pages!   :Lol:
You should be caught up now, had no shop time yesterday...

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 02, 2019, 04:13:44 PM
Back in the shop again this morning, got the second cylinder base cap turned and drilled. Here they are so far:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZK5qXHJd/IMG-4177.jpg)
And a shot of them on the model:
(https://i.postimg.cc/pXcdvjd1/IMG-4179.jpg)
Dang it! One of the elves was on break, here it is after he left:
(https://i.postimg.cc/JzyzzhD7/IMG-4178.jpg)
The base caps still need the gland bosses milled to shape, and the gland bolt holes drilled/tapped. Also I need to make a drilling jig to match the bolt holes in the base plates, so I can drill the holes in the floor plates to match. The steam chests and passages are probably the next thing to work on.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 02, 2019, 08:14:46 PM
Finishing off the base caps - used the rotary table to drill the holes into the caps for the gland mount screws, using the table to rotate 180 degrees between holes ensured that they were directly opposite each other without any detailed centering of the table.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mr4gRzqv/IMG-4180.jpg)
The glands were turned from round bar, just a disc with  a boss sticking out one side to fit the hole in the base cap. This boss will push down on the o-ring. Drilled clearance holes for the screws with the rotary table in the same position as with the base caps.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mgCg0Nd3/IMG-4181.jpg)
Then screwed the gland into the base cap, with no o-ring present so the parts came up tight to each other for milling the taper shape into the glands. The rotary table was turned till the screws were aligned with the long axis of the mill table, then 23 degrees to one side, and a flat milled onto one side of the gland.

(https://i.postimg.cc/QtxNKLjS/IMG-4182.jpg)
Then turned 23 degrees the opposite way from center, and repeated the cuts.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3wZJwrQd/IMG-4183.jpg)
Same sequence on the other cap, and the base caps are completed.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wvfqhWvz/IMG-4184.jpg)
Next I can move on to the steam chests and passages...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on January 02, 2019, 10:16:15 PM
With that rotary table setup Chris, the right gland would not need to know what the left gland was doing during the angled cuts...... :naughty:

It's looking great!  :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 02, 2019, 10:38:54 PM
With that rotary table setup Chris, the right gland would not need to know what the left gland was doing during the angled cuts...... :naughty:

It's looking great!  :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:


 :Lol:


If a screw was loose (on the gland) would we hear the sound of one gland slapping?    :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on January 03, 2019, 12:53:44 AM
Still watching Dog!... :popcorn:


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on January 03, 2019, 06:34:39 PM
If a screw was loose (on the gland) would we hear the sound of one gland slapping?

It's Punday already?  I thought it was only Thursday, where ever did this week go?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 03, 2019, 06:42:00 PM
If a screw was loose (on the gland) would we hear the sound of one gland slapping?

It's Punday already?  I thought it was only Thursday, where ever did this week go?
Everyday is PunDay!   :Jester:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 03, 2019, 06:46:33 PM
This morning I got the piston rods cut to length and threaded both ends of the M4, also made the lock nuts for the crosshead guide ends. The piston blanks were cut from stainless, left oversize, drilled and threaded. They were run onto the rods with some red loctite, once they have set up I can chuck up the pistons by the rods and trim them to size. There will be a viton o-ring for a seal, have had great luck using those in my other engines.
(https://i.postimg.cc/528mM3mf/IMG-4186.jpg)
The crosshead ends will be assembled on later with some blue loctite, so they are removeable if need be.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 03, 2019, 06:49:40 PM
All this talk about slapping glands is making me set with my legs crossed--
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 03, 2019, 06:57:20 PM
All this talk about slapping glands is making me set with my legs crossed--
How did Zee get Brian's account login?!    :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 04, 2019, 02:31:46 PM
Chris--I stole a page from your book this morning. I made my rocker arm support in two pieces and was thinking of building a complicated fixture to hold the two parts together in the correct position for soldering them. Then I remembered reading about how you use temporary fasteners to hold parts together and I thought "Hmmm"--That would work for me.  And it did. Put a clearance hole in one part, tapped the other part and used a shcs to align them correctly. Did the soldering and then ground the head off the cap screw with my big belt sander. Worked like a charm. Thank you for the idea.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 04, 2019, 03:26:20 PM
Chris--I stole a page from your book this morning. I made my rocker arm support in two pieces and was thinking of building a complicated fixture to hold the two parts together in the correct position for soldering them. Then I remembered reading about how you use temporary fasteners to hold parts together and I thought "Hmmm"--That would work for me.  And it did. Put a clearance hole in one part, tapped the other part and used a shcs to align them correctly. Did the soldering and then ground the head off the cap screw with my big belt sander. Worked like a charm. Thank you for the idea.---Brian


Excellent!   Wish I could take credit for the idea, but learned it from Kozo's books while building the New Shay. Does work great for keeping parts in place for soldering.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 04, 2019, 05:44:47 PM
Got the pistons taken down to size, and the o-ring grooves cut in with a parting tool. The o-ring grooves are a little deeper than the tables you see in the books, since these need to be easy sliding fit, not highly compressed seals. I cut them close, then start trial fitting the cylinder and taking off a few thou more till it feels right, slides without a lot of force.
(https://i.postimg.cc/nhyPD0L9/IMG-4187.jpg)
Here are the parts so far, one cylinder assembled and one apart to show the components.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wjyrMS9d/IMG-4189.jpg)
And the elves got this birds-eye view from their drone....   ;)
(https://i.postimg.cc/SKct7CXT/IMG-4191.jpg)
Next up will be to work on the steam chests and passages...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 04, 2019, 06:55:02 PM
I was curious how much the model was weighing so far, so got out the scale:

Under the rear tracks: 11 pounds
Under the front tracks: 63 pounds
Total: 74 pounds!

I better get the shop elves some steroids and barbells....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on January 04, 2019, 07:07:23 PM
The elves have subs AND drones...  What's next ICBM's?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 04, 2019, 08:18:51 PM
The elves have subs AND drones...  What's next ICBM's?
They ARE ICBM's - Individual Cookie Belching Monsters....   :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 04, 2019, 08:24:20 PM
And a couple bits to help refill the scrap bin....   :facepalm:
Got the blanks for the steam chests and the lids cut/trimmed to length, carefully leaving room for the bosses on the sides for the steam inlet pipes. Then put each pair in the 4-jaw to cut in the boss, and taking the lid down to width at the same time.
(https://i.postimg.cc/J06SsX0T/IMG-4192.jpg)
Here are the first pair on the cylinder, looking good so far....
(https://i.postimg.cc/nV0yRy2v/IMG-4193.jpg)
And, was halfway through cutting the boss on the second pair when I starting thinking, okay - next turn the parts 90 degrees in the chuck to turn/mill in the boss for the valve.... gland... on... the .. end....

 :wallbang:
Elf-pucky! Forgot to leave the steam chest blanks longer than the lids to leave room for the gland bosses on the ends!
 :facepalm2:    :zap:
Oh, well, those bits will get used for something else later on.... have to redo the steam chest pieces, the lids are fine.

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: J.L. on January 04, 2019, 09:06:01 PM
Hi Chris,

Interesting that you should have a thought of weighing the project. I am in the process of building a table for my next diorama and have decided to use 1 1/4" steel angle iron for the legs and stringers.

A steel table would certainly hold your project when it is on display.

Cheers...John
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on January 04, 2019, 09:14:31 PM
Sorry to hear about the steam chest hoo-ha.  :facepalm: Look on the bright side - it could have been hundred dollar castings from overseas going in the scrap box! If this isn't a big plus for method of from building from stock materials I don't know what is!

Re scrap box - I prefer to call mine the "metal storage for re-purposing" box, or my "second shop chair" with a suitable cushion on it (yes it is that big)!

Here and I thought ICBM in the elf world was "intentional consumers (of) booze (in) mass-qty" or "intelligent (,) compact brass machinists"
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 04, 2019, 11:59:22 PM
Hi Chris,

Interesting that you should have a thought of weighing the project. I am in the process of building a table for my next diorama and have decided to use 1 1/4" steel angle iron for the legs and stringers.

A steel table would certainly hold your project when it is on display.

Cheers...John
Oh yeah, going to need a sturdy table for this one. The CAD app estmates around 110 pounds when done, but it thinks its all steel, in reality there is brass, copper too, though some ali plate. Maybe should do a lottery to see gets the closest guess!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 05, 2019, 12:00:16 AM
Sorry to hear about the steam chest hoo-ha.  :facepalm: Look on the bright side - it could have been hundred dollar castings from overseas going in the scrap box! If this isn't a big plus for method of from building from stock materials I don't know what is!

Re scrap box - I prefer to call mine the "metal storage for re-purposing" box, or my "second shop chair" with a suitable cushion on it (yes it is that big)!

Here and I thought ICBM in the elf world was "intentional consumers (of) booze (in) mass-qty" or "intelligent (,) compact brass machinists"

Yeah at least it was only 50 cents worth of bar stock!


Great terms!  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on January 05, 2019, 01:19:22 AM
Damn Dog that is turning into one badass machine. Waiting to see the passage and ports done this stuff is coming around nice,  so Dog you know........I..........like........  :Love:



 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on January 05, 2019, 06:07:03 AM
Bummer on the steam chests, Chris!  :facepalm:
Not that I''ve ever done anything like that before, but think I can imagine how you might feel  O:-)

You've got one massive machine there Chris!  And its only going to get heavier! I'm going to guess 112 lbs.  :)

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 05, 2019, 09:36:30 PM
Bummer on the steam chests, Chris!  :facepalm:
Not that I''ve ever done anything like that before, but think I can imagine how you might feel  O:-)

You've got one massive machine there Chris!  And its only going to get heavier! I'm going to guess 112 lbs.  :)

Kim
I can guarantee I'll have the best guess - just need to guess a high weight and add bar stock under the frame till I am right!   :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 05, 2019, 09:43:57 PM
All right, time for Steam Chest, Take 2!
This afternoon got the new, proper length blanks trimmed to length and turned in the bosses like before (except without the lids in the stack, they are already trimmed). Drilled/tapped for the pipe end while I was at it.

(https://i.postimg.cc/cJsvCJh2/IMG-4194.jpg)
Then turned them on end and turned in the long dimension of the boss on the end for the valve gland (this is the bit I goofed on the first pair, which were too short to do this).
(https://i.postimg.cc/fy0LpSWt/IMG-4195.jpg)
The end was also drilled for the o-ring, and smaller drill for the valve rod.
Moved the chuck over to the mill, and angled the sides of the boss in. I did up to this stage on both pieces before the next step.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wvM35bSk/IMG-4196.jpg)
Then offset the rotary table for the screws, centered it on the long axis, and drilled/tapped both sides for the mounting screws (rotated the table 180 degrees between holes to ensure they were equal distances from the center hole, which is on the centerline of the rotary table).
(https://i.postimg.cc/tg2YxHmT/IMG-4197.jpg)
Did that on both parts, here they are so far:
(https://i.postimg.cc/9Mk0LY2H/IMG-4198.jpg)
While the mill is locked down at the offset for the mount holes, I will make the glands and get them drilled too. That will probably be tomorrow...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on January 05, 2019, 10:20:03 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :ThumbsUp:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 05, 2019, 10:28:18 PM
:ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :ThumbsUp:

Pete


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on January 06, 2019, 12:30:53 AM
Got the pistons taken down to size, and the o-ring grooves cut in with a parting tool. The o-ring grooves are a little deeper than the tables you see in the books, since these need to be easy sliding fit, not highly compressed seals. I cut them close, then start trial fitting the cylinder and taking off a few thou more till it feels right, slides without a lot of force.
(https://i.postimg.cc/nhyPD0L9/IMG-4187.jpg)
Here are the parts so far, one cylinder assembled and one apart to show the components.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wjyrMS9d/IMG-4189.jpg)
And the elves got this birds-eye view from their drone....   ;)
(https://i.postimg.cc/SKct7CXT/IMG-4191.jpg)
Next up will be to work on the steam chests and passages...

The tables in the books are probably for 1,000 psig pressures.
 I remember working with hydraulic systems that you had to use a mallet to force some on.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on January 06, 2019, 12:47:49 AM
All I can say is...

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :pinkelephant: :cartwheel:

 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 06, 2019, 12:56:31 AM
Got the pistons taken down to size, and the o-ring grooves cut in with a parting tool. The o-ring grooves are a little deeper than the tables you see in the books, since these need to be easy sliding fit, not highly compressed seals. I cut them close, then start trial fitting the cylinder and taking off a few thou more till it feels right, slides without a lot of force.
(https://i.postimg.cc/nhyPD0L9/IMG-4187.jpg)
Here are the parts so far, one cylinder assembled and one apart to show the components.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wjyrMS9d/IMG-4189.jpg)
And the elves got this birds-eye view from their drone....   ;)
(https://i.postimg.cc/SKct7CXT/IMG-4191.jpg)
Next up will be to work on the steam chests and passages...

The tables in the books are probably for 1,000 psig pressures.
 I remember working with hydraulic systems that you had to use a mallet to force some on.
Wow, no good for small model pistons! I cut a fair bit deeper...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 06, 2019, 12:57:50 AM
All I can say is...

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :pinkelephant: :cartwheel:

 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
:cheers:   :)   8)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 06, 2019, 01:01:49 AM
Looking ahead to the crowd/slew/steering engines, I took Brian's advice and ordered some chunks of 1144 steel rod for the crankshafts and blocks, which are very convoluted shapes and need something that wont distort. Been wanting to try it for a while, this will be a perfect test.


Still a ways to go on the hoist engine, but nice to have the stock ahead of time and waiting...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on January 06, 2019, 01:15:23 AM
You're gonna LOVE the 1144!  :Love:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 06, 2019, 01:22:03 AM
You're gonna LOVE the 1144!  :Love:

Pete
Hope not too much, still have a lot of 303!   :Lol:


Does anyone make 1144 in flat bar shapes? Only seen it in round so far.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on January 06, 2019, 02:45:44 AM
That's the problem: I've only seen rounds.

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamer on January 06, 2019, 02:49:00 AM
You're gonna LOVE the 1144!  :Love:

Pete
Hope not too much, still have a lot of 303!   :Lol:


Does anyone make 1144 in flat bar shapes? Only seen it in round so far.

Ive only found round stock....I've looked!...

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Firebird on January 06, 2019, 09:46:46 AM
 :popcornsmall:

Cheers

Rich
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 06, 2019, 02:35:04 PM
Were the o-rings for your pistons a nominal 1/16" diameter? If so, how deep did you make the cut in the piston. I usually aim for .058" depth of ring groove, which really makes a great seal but ends up at pretty high friction also.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 06, 2019, 02:45:36 PM
Were the o-rings for your pistons a nominal 1/16" diameter? If so, how deep did you make the cut in the piston. I usually aim for .058" depth of ring groove, which really makes a great seal but ends up at pretty high friction also.---Brian
They are about 1/16" cross section, I started at about that depth, but took another thou off several times till I had a lower friction fit - I did not measure the final depth, just went by feel of the fit in the bore. Plugging one end of the cylinder, it still made very good compression/suction when moving the piston, and snapped the piston back when I let go. The piston itself was about .001 under the bore size.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamer on January 06, 2019, 02:49:34 PM
Looking ahead to the crowd/slew/steering engines, I took Brian's advice and ordered some chunks of 1144 steel rod for the crankshafts and blocks, which are very convoluted shapes and need something that wont distort. Been wanting to try it for a while, this will be a perfect test.


Still a ways to go on the hoist engine, but nice to have the stock ahead of time and waiting...

Like Pete said, you're going to love 1144.   It machines easier than CRS, but its stable and has fantastic properties.   HSS works fine unlike say 4150 which really needs Carbide.

Good stuff!

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 06, 2019, 03:07:58 PM
Thanks guys, looking forward to seeing how it machines. Here is what the slew and crowd engines look like (steering engine is same design, just 30% smaller)
(https://i.postimg.cc/V6CQCB5Z/Slew-Engine.png)
And the crankshaft, which is a different design than I have done before (note just one eccentric per cylinder, it does the throttle and reversing inside the central valve in the engine).
(https://i.postimg.cc/3w6QNbrD/Crankshaft.jpg)
With all those odd shapes, the stressproof steel should be the way to go. For size reference, the finished engine will be 2-1/8" wide, 4" long, 1/2" bore and 1/2" stroke. I may have to channel my inner Britnell on this one, lots of small stuff! I am thinking of making a spare fourth one to keep seperate from the shovel for display.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamer on January 06, 2019, 03:10:36 PM
Are you going to make that crank 1 piece?   Theres a challenge!    8)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 06, 2019, 03:19:33 PM
Are you going to make that crank 1 piece?   Theres a challenge!    8)
I think I am going to try one piece on this one - that center bar would be a tough one to piece up, though it could be done as a round piece then mill it flat. I have not done a one-piece multi-cylinder crankshaft before, would like to try one. I am still mulling over the sequence on it, could do a lot of the shaping on the mill for the flat sections, but working out the sequence for best holding is going to take a little thought. It could be pieced up also, with tapered cross pins in the joints. Its only a 1/4" throw, which helps a bit.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamer on January 06, 2019, 03:33:46 PM
Well what ever you decide, we'll be following along, and 1144SP will co-operate...I love that material

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 06, 2019, 05:39:10 PM
Continuing on with the steam chest valve glands, turned/drilled the post for the first one on the end of some bar stock (drilled deep enough for two parts), then moved it to the rotary table, still set up for the mounting bolts, and drilled the clearance holes there, again deep enough for two parts.
(https://i.postimg.cc/02SPLvfK/IMG-4199.jpg)
And milled off the sides, just like I did with the end of the steam chest:
(https://i.postimg.cc/K8yxbWqq/IMG-4200.jpg)
Then parted off the first one, turned the post for the second, and parted it off too. Here are the parts so far:
(https://i.postimg.cc/bwH8wR4z/IMG-4201.jpg)
I think the next step is to cut out the centers of the steam chests, then can drill the mounting holes...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on January 06, 2019, 06:31:32 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Great looking steam chest parts Chris!

Saw how happy you were with Jason's low friction bearings on the perp mot thread. I just had a mental picture of your shovel operating with these brgs on the hoist shafts. Steam is admitted to cylinders. Engine spins up. steam is shut off quickly. Shafts and hoists keep coasting, coasting, coasting, until TWANG - end of chain length! By this time, waiting gondola cars for receiving rock are flattened, and the rock in them is now gravel! Imagination is horrible sometimes....

(sometimes a little friction is good - I think I read that on a brake shoe package once. And as Stewart Hart says - a little clearance never got in the road)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 06, 2019, 07:02:27 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Great looking steam chest parts Chris!

Saw how happy you were with Jason's low friction bearings on the perp mot thread. I just had a mental picture of your shovel operating with these brgs on the hoist shafts. Steam is admitted to cylinders. Engine spins up. steam is shut off quickly. Shafts and hoists keep coasting, coasting, coasting, until TWANG - end of chain length! By this time, waiting gondola cars for receiving rock are flattened, and the rock in them is now gravel! Imagination is horrible sometimes....

(sometimes a little friction is good - I think I read that on a brake shoe package once. And as Stewart Hart says - a little clearance never got in the road)
:ROFL: :lolb:
Skip the imagination, I want to see the movie of that one!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 06, 2019, 09:24:27 PM
One more session in the shop today, got the centers out of the steam chests. Started by chain drilling a row of holes around just inside the perimeter:
(https://i.postimg.cc/65vPfLVC/IMG-4205.jpg)
Then connected the dots and cleaned up the inside to final size.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Z5zM7Bj2/IMG-4206.jpg)
Parts so far, ready for drilling the mounting holes for the steam chests and lids:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Bn5wdSV6/IMG-4207.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 07, 2019, 10:35:51 PM
Last night we had our monthly RC submarine run at the local Y pool, here are a few of the subs there, we had 7 or so in the pool at once.
(https://i.postimg.cc/y8PWRCW5/IMG-4212.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/CxYzdxMk/IMG-4217.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/SjbbTR1r/IMG-4220.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 07, 2019, 10:40:55 PM
This afternoon got started drilling the holes for the mounting screws in the steam chest, lid, and base. First worked out the movement pattern and made up notes on that, then got the first part in the vise, back right corner at the corner of the vise so I could set the lid in the same place next, zeroed at the corner hole, and went around with the spot drill and twist drill:
(https://i.postimg.cc/tRZ1McmZ/IMG-4222.jpg)
Same for the second chest and the lids, then set up for the bases. Since the cylinders are wider than the chests, the starting point had to move out from the vise, but same pattern. The second cylinder was indexed off the left back corner and the sequence reversed since there is a left and right cylinder with the holes wider apart around the passages. Went back and forth a couple times to ensure I had the correct orientation on both, then drilled the bases:

(https://i.postimg.cc/QN2BGqR6/IMG-4224.jpg)
And the parts so far, ready for tapping all the holes:
(https://i.postimg.cc/4NpYJ9GX/IMG-4225.jpg)
After all the tapping is done, I can start on the steam/exhaust passages.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 08, 2019, 08:41:55 PM
Good - power is back on so I can post these pics (glad it went off AFTER I turned off the mill). Anyone missing a car and a bunch of shop gnomes? Apparently they missed a corner somewhere and took out a power pole..
So, got started on the steam ports in the hoist engine cylinders. Laid out the dimensions, centered up the part on the mill, and chain drilled around the openings slightly smaller than the finished openings:
(https://i.postimg.cc/zXFKHkpd/IMG-4227.jpg)
The center of the large opening was cleared out with a normal end mill, then had to switch to a small rotary tool bur for the rest of the work. In the past I've done this freehand with the high speed handpiece, but wanted to try it with the mill, cranked up to max speed and taking very light cuts. Worked well once I learned to take shallow/light passes and feed very slowly so I didn't break the cutters, which are a .050" diameter (and these are the larger ones).

(https://i.postimg.cc/T32mVW4T/IMG-4229.jpg)
With lots of stops to vacuum out the chips and take measurements, got all three openings out to size. Then took a skim cut off with a fly cutter to even up the surface and get rid of the dings from all the handling so far.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4x8cBNDV/IMG-4232.jpg)
The first port face complete, one more to go, then will drill the passages to the cylinder and exhaust. The light vertical lines on the port face in the photo are reflections from the lights, not scratches!

(https://i.postimg.cc/KYRMVhbV/IMG-4234.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on January 08, 2019, 08:52:14 PM
Cool just another walk-in the park Dog...... :ThumbsUp:

 :popcorn:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 09, 2019, 05:58:59 PM
Cool just another walk-in the park Dog...... :ThumbsUp:

 :popcorn:
Don
A very carefully measured walk!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 09, 2019, 06:06:34 PM
Yesterday afternoon got the ports on the other cylinder cut, and this morning got the passages drilled. Started with the exhaust port on the side, drilled/tapped them M7 for the pipes:
(https://i.postimg.cc/jj5nXPq6/IMG-4236.jpg)
Then on to the steam passages to the ends of the cylinders - started by marking the edges of the ports on the sides, drew a line where I wanted the passage to go, and used that to clamp the part at the proper angle in the mill vise. To start the holes, milled a flat at the corner of the cylinder bore slightly wider than the drill (#46). The flat was made 1/4" wide to allow for 3 holes side by side.

(https://i.postimg.cc/tTnZ0bxY/IMG-4237.jpg)
Then spot/drilled the holes through from the flat to the bottom sides of the port opening - measured the distance on the side to give me a limit of how deep to go just in case it missed or I did not feel it break through into the port. All went in clean and straight, so one more nervous moment past safely...
(https://i.postimg.cc/1XxgsdGM/IMG-4238.jpg)
Then used the rotary tool to connect up the three holes and make one large one for free flow of steam/air, and smoothed off the edges of the hole.

(https://i.postimg.cc/LsbY05hc/IMG-4239.jpg)
That should complete the passages, next will be to make the valve sliders and rods. After that, just the linkage from the Stephenson bar to the control rod under the floor, some gaskets, and will be able to get it all bolted down and timed.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on January 09, 2019, 06:07:44 PM
Hi Chris ...wow all looking really good :praise2:

Willy
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Firebird on January 09, 2019, 07:13:15 PM
Hi Chris

Nice job on drilling the ports  :ThumbsUp:

I had difficulty drilling mine, drill wandering off etc

Cheers

Rich
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 09, 2019, 07:21:38 PM
That particular hole is a real "breath holder". I've never had one come out somewhere it wasn't supposed to, but I'm never sure until I feel the drill break thru .---Brian
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 09, 2019, 07:37:15 PM
Its drilling that last hole at an angle in a part with so many hours in it... Drawing the guide lines on the outside and measuring the max depth to drill reduces the likelihood of a major goof, and spit drilling the flat and using a good sharp drill helps a lot too. A worn drill can wander a lot, especially if its worn on one side or unevenly sharpened.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on January 09, 2019, 09:16:20 PM
Great job on the cylinder drilling Chris, looks great.  :ThumbsUp:

For jobs like this I try and find a new sharp drill to minimize chance of drill wandering. Sand inclusions in castings can cause drills to go off in other directions too - this may be what happened to you Rich. (another reason I like making cylinders from continuous-cast cast iron bar stock - no sand inclusions, hard spots, or blow holes, ever!)

A trick I learned many years ago from an old toolmaker to detect a drill breakthrough in a blind hole or pocket as on your steam ports Chris- use a "dancer". This is just a piece of tin can or shim stock cut to loosely fit the hole or port width to the bottom of the hole or port. If held in a wooden clothespin or alligator clip to keep the shim stock in position in the hole, as soon as the drill breaks through it will hit the shim stock and cause it to jump around or "dance". You stop drill feed at that point and yell "NASTROVYA" or similar, loud as you can, cause you didn't drill too deep. Your shop elves may improvise other profanities of course, suitable for the occasion......  :insane:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 09, 2019, 09:57:31 PM
Great tips CNR.




If no scrap bits for the dancer are handy, just have the apprentice shop elf hold his finger there, when his eyes bulge out back out the drill.   :o    :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on January 09, 2019, 10:20:46 PM
Is that elf the one you call "Stubby", or is it "Lucky"?   :LittleDevil: :lolb:

He's the one you sent off to the boiler house the other day to get a bucket of blue steam, isn't he? :naughty:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 09, 2019, 11:57:12 PM
Is that elf the one you call "Stubby", or is it "Lucky"?   :LittleDevil: :lolb:

He's the one you sent off to the boiler house the other day to get a bucket of blue steam, isn't he? :naughty:
:Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on January 10, 2019, 12:53:14 AM
Told you a walk in the park.... :lolb: nice work Dog looks great..,,  :ThumbsUp


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on January 10, 2019, 01:32:59 AM
Its drilling that last hole at an angle in a part with so many hours in it... Drawing the guide lines on the outside and measuring the max depth to drill reduces the likelihood of a major goof, and spit drilling the flat and using a good sharp drill helps a lot too. A worn drill can wander a lot, especially if its worn on one side or unevenly sharpened.

Similar to drilling the gas feed line in a carburetor/mixer where the drill needs to break out on the lip of a poppet valve seat.  Not any room for error. You measure and check and recheck, but you're never sure till the drill breaks out at the right place.

Looks like all is well  :pinkelephant: :cartwheel: :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on January 10, 2019, 12:07:05 PM
I try to "aim" for the middle of the port wall rather than the bottom.  Some leeway in both directions.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 10, 2019, 02:16:15 PM
I try to "aim" for the middle of the port wall rather than the bottom.  Some leeway in both directions.
I aimed for just above the bottom corner, hit it pretty close.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 10, 2019, 06:43:23 PM
On to the valve sliders for the hoist engine - started with some stainless flat bar stock, trimmed to length/width, and milled in the opening on the bottom with a small end mill. First took the opening out close to size, then a series of light cuts, lots of measuring, to get them out to finished dimensions. I left the sliders a few thou long at the ends so that I can file them down to fine tune the openings if need be - there is always a little slop in the movement of the eccentric/stephenson links, and I've been bitten by that in the past and had to remake the sliders a few times, so this time I am leaving them a little large and the bottom opening a few thou small.
(https://i.postimg.cc/PrTt0YZZ/IMG-4240.jpg)
Drilled cross holes for the adjusting nut and the valve rod, then used those holes as a guide to milling in the slots.
(https://i.postimg.cc/x1d91Q61/IMG-4241.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/rFj8TsCH/IMG-4242.jpg)
Drilled/tapped some bar stock for the adjusting nuts, just need to make the valve rods and the fittings to connect them to the reverse linkages.:
(https://i.postimg.cc/SxtkXPP7/IMG-4245.jpg)




Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on January 10, 2019, 07:46:36 PM
Two of those parts are just nuts....  :insane:

Just kidding, valves and other parts look great Chris!  :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 11, 2019, 07:53:14 PM
Today got the gaskets for the cylinders cut out - stacked the sheets between a block of wood and one of the cylinder caps, and used the cap as a drill guide to drill through the paper. Then cut around the cylinder cap with a knife to get the outside of the ring, and cut the inside with the gasket on the cylinder, inside of the bore as a guide for the knife. Still need to make the steam chest gaskets - blanks are stacked in upper left of the photo.

(https://i.postimg.cc/nLWDCL4F/IMG-4246.jpg)
I assembled the cylinders onto the trunks, and tested the seal by holding a finger over the ports. On the first one, everything held well, good compression/suction on the cylinder with no leaks. The second one had a couple of pinhole leaks where the steam chest base met the cylinder - was afraid of that when I soldered them, turns out I should have used more solder on this one. But, everything is held in place by the solder that is there, so I flowed in some soft solder to seal the holes and now it all seals well.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3N50Fbfz/IMG-4247.jpg)
Getting ready to bolt the engines down to the floor on the model - the cylinders overhang the base plate so I cannot use them as drill guides, so I made up a drill guide from a bit of steel flat bar. I'll mark out the outline of the base on the floor, then clamp this guide in place and drill for the mounting bolts. I could have just used the plan measurements, but this way I can be sure that the piston travel is centered in the cylinder.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Y9mmgwR1/IMG-4248.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on January 12, 2019, 01:54:07 AM
Nice "Family" shot above with the cylinders, valve chests, etc.  :ThumbsUp:

Look'in good.  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 12, 2019, 02:05:20 AM
Nice "Family" shot above with the cylinders, valve chests, etc.  :ThumbsUp:

Look'in good.  :ThumbsUp:
Thanks Craig!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 90LX_Notch on January 12, 2019, 02:44:33 AM
Brilliant as always Chris.

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 12, 2019, 02:55:12 AM
Thanks Bob!


Didn't feel brilliant when I started rearranging things to get at the linkages under the floor for the reversing link, when I finally realized that I could just unbolt the center floor plate behind the slew drum and get at it from the top!


 ::)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 13, 2019, 12:23:22 AM
Not much to show today, been tweaking control rods and laying out for the rods that move the Stephenson linkage up and down... Tomorrow should be able to make the connection between the valve ros and the Stephenson link.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on January 13, 2019, 12:53:35 AM
Well your certainly on your way Dog! They look great Chris always awesome work...... :praise2:


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 13, 2019, 01:46:38 AM
Thanks Don, really looking forward to seeing the first engine turning over!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 13, 2019, 05:10:28 PM
Catching up with a few pics from this weekend - first here are the shop elves drilling the mount holes for the hoist engine base plate bolts using the drilling jig clamped to the floor plate. These holes are tapped, and where possible there are bolts up from the underside for maximum strength. A couple of places there were control rods and such in the way, so I loctited in some cut off bolts from the top.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pLZwfZts/IMG-4249.jpg)
Here are the control linkages in place for the reversing gear - there are cranks under the floor to bring the motion from the controls up front back to the engine, then up through the floor. The short crank and clevis in front of the reverse link is the throttle control for the slew engine.

(https://i.postimg.cc/637FNx4P/IMG-4255.jpg)
And almost forgot to mill in the recess around the edge of the steam chest lids!
(https://i.postimg.cc/W4YxK1zr/IMG-4256.jpg)
Gotten started on the steam chest assembly, made up the fiber gaskets, and about to make the clevis/bearing to attach the end of the valve rod to the Stephenson link bar.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zfG90gz8/IMG-4257.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on January 13, 2019, 06:17:27 PM
All looking great Chris.  :ThumbsUp:

Radial Drill Ronnie in the photo made a good job of the holes. No chuck knurling rash on his hard hat brim either!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 13, 2019, 06:27:35 PM
All looking great Chris.  :ThumbsUp:

Radial Drill Ronnie in the photo made a good job of the holes. No chuck knurling rash on his hard hat brim either!
:Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 14, 2019, 04:51:24 PM
Little fiddly bit by little fiddly bit, the engine is coming down to complete - made up the clevises to attach the valve rod to the reverse link, including small bronze bearings to ride inside the link.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cHPR1j9J/IMG-4259.jpg)
Next step is to find the length to trim the valve rod to, and loctite the rods into the clevises. Then the engines can be assembled into place and the timing of the valves done, at least the initial visual timing. Testing will need to wait to make up the steam inlet piping - the pipes go straight up from the valve chests, and right-angle in towards each other where they meet the hoist engine throttle valve. That valve is not made yet, so I will probably just attach some flex tubing to a T so I can hook up the compressor and test the engine, probably need to do some timing tweaks at that point.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: sco on January 14, 2019, 08:53:44 PM
We will need a video of the engine test - not that we doubt it will work, just we will NEED to see it!

:-)

Simon.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 15, 2019, 12:55:36 AM
We will need a video of the engine test - not that we doubt it will work, just we will NEED to see it!

:-)

Simon.
Absolutely!!  It will be several days at least till it goes, other things keep getting in the way...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 15, 2019, 08:42:04 PM
Made up the studs for the steam chest, and got the valves visually timed - the final timing will be done with some low air pressure so I can feel when the ports open/close. The steam chests are button up, and I put on a bit of paint to cover the brass base parts:
(https://i.postimg.cc/7LFtF8Y9/IMG-4260.jpg)
A few more bolts to do up, and I will start making the inlet/exhaust pipes. I got some more of the thicker wall copper tube, and need to make up the flanges to thread them to the steam chest and also make up some elbows/tees...
(https://i.postimg.cc/zfbP2X53/IMG-4262.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: scc on January 15, 2019, 08:49:41 PM
This gets better every post!   I cannot comprehend the speed of progress.   I MUST get some elves :thinking:



Well Done Chris :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 15, 2019, 09:05:49 PM
This gets better every post!   I cannot comprehend the speed of progress.   I MUST get some elves :thinking:



Well Done Chris :cheers:
Helpful shop elves are a must. It takes a lot of time and cookies to convert shop gnomes to shop elves, but its worth it!


 :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on January 15, 2019, 09:31:47 PM
Damn Dog that is one fine looking piece of machinery you have made. I want to see this baby in action just awesome work!......I...........like............ :Love:


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on January 15, 2019, 10:11:20 PM
Hello Chris,

Amazing and beautiful.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: J.L. on January 15, 2019, 10:15:57 PM
Chris,
This is beyond words. Please be thinking about where it can be displayed for years to come.
John
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 15, 2019, 10:45:44 PM
Chris,
This is beyond words. Please be thinking about where it can be displayed for years to come.
John
Short term here at home, it may wind up out at the LeRoy museum...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: J.L. on January 16, 2019, 01:54:51 AM
Excellent.
John
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on January 16, 2019, 07:07:55 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
 :popcorn: :popcorn:

 :cheers:
Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 16, 2019, 09:50:28 PM
Thanks Guys!!
A little closer to firing up - made up the copper intake and exhaust pipes and the flanges to attach them to the steam chest. They are both screwed into the steam chest, and the fittings are silver soldered to the tubes. Next I need to make a couple of quickie connectors to hook up the compressor to each of the intakes and I can start final timing of the engine. I had to disassemble the left cylinder earlier today, the crosshead was binding a bit and needed a little tweaking with a file.
(https://i.postimg.cc/v8CGpn7t/IMG-4271.jpg)
The shorter pipes are the intakes, they will get an elbow at the top to lead into the center where the throttle valve will be (its control handle will hang from the ceiling up at the front operator platform, and a rod leads back to this valve). For now, I'll just run some flex tubing to each pipe, one at a time, to check the timing and adjust as needed till each cylinder will operate correctly, then add a tee and see how it runs altogether. I loosened the grub screws on the gear on the crankshaft and slid it over so the gear train will not be driven at first.


One issue that I may run into is the valve rod flexing - not really liking how it moves, and went back to check the photos of the real machine - there is a sliding guide block there which I missed, may have to add that to get proper valve motion since right now the clevis is getting pushed up and down a little as the reverse link operates.

So, one small step at a time till it is all running! Thanks for following along.   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on January 16, 2019, 10:45:25 PM
The assembly looks great Chris.  :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: Like the new copper organ pipes too.  :naughty:

Some valve rod guide bushings / brackets sound like a good idea near the reverse links. There can be a lot of force sideways as the links travel up and down. Wouldn't want a bent valve rod in the heat of shovel vs rock combat.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on January 16, 2019, 11:24:39 PM
Hello Chris,

That is a really good photo.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 16, 2019, 11:25:21 PM
The assembly looks great Chris.  :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: Like the new copper organ pipes too.  :naughty:

Some valve rod guide bushings / brackets sound like a good idea near the reverse links. There can be a lot of force sideways as the links travel up and down. Wouldn't want a bent valve rod in the heat of shovel vs rock combat.
Yeah, I was not expecting that the reverse link would have so much rocking motion, but these links are a lot shorter than others I have made. In the photos of the real one it was hard to see the guides there, there is so much packed into a small area, and there are the remains of a auto lubrication pump blocking most of the view. Should be able to whip up a little guide bar for it.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 16, 2019, 11:29:06 PM
Hello Chris,

That is a really good photo.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Thanks Thomas!  I am really looking forward to seeing the slew engine in there too, it will sit between the steam chests and back under the backstay bar in the middle. Given the complexity of its shape I am having a mockup of it 3d printed to help me keep track of the milling, should have that next week.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on January 17, 2019, 12:54:46 AM
This gets better every post!   I cannot comprehend the speed of progress.   I MUST get some elves :thinking:



Well Done Chris :cheers:
Helpful shop elves are a must. It takes a lot of time and cookies to convert shop gnomes to shop elves, but its worth it!


 :Lol:

You have to be careful the gnome layer is always there and if you don't watch close and keep there training up (and the cookies and treat plentiful), they revert quickly.

Gerald.

PS The quality control on the cookies is very important, Thus most of us who have Elves tend to be on the portly side, and you have a tendency to have a beard.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 17, 2019, 01:06:12 AM
This gets better every post!   I cannot comprehend the speed of progress.   I MUST get some elves :thinking:



Well Done Chris :cheers:
Helpful shop elves are a must. It takes a lot of time and cookies to convert shop gnomes to shop elves, but its worth it!


 :Lol:

You have to be careful the gnome layer is always there and if you don't watch close and keep there training up (and the cookies and treat plentiful), they revert quickly.

Gerald.

PS The quality control on the cookies is very important, Thus most of us who have Elves tend to be on the portly side, and you have a tendency to have a beard.


True on all counts!  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Firebird on January 17, 2019, 08:16:55 AM
Hi Chris

Ok I need a couple of shop elves

Where do I find them

How do I catch them

 :headscratch:

Cheers

Rich
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 17, 2019, 01:04:28 PM
Hi Chris

Ok I need a couple of shop elves

Where do I find them

How do I catch them

 :headscratch:

Cheers

Rich
The trick is to convert your existing shop gnomes, who steal parts and tools, into helpful shop elves. Start leaving out plates of mint chocolate chip cookies to draw them out, some shiny bearings as bribes maybe...  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 17, 2019, 02:58:09 PM
... been doing some measuring and sketching on the valve rod area, think the best approach is to hang a guide bar off the end of the steam chest with a slider attached to the clevis bolt, like how a lot of locomotive engines do it. Will draw it up in fusion and post pics later today... This way the guide moves with the steam chest when disassembling rather than more screws buried between parts attached to the floor.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Admiral_dk on January 17, 2019, 04:50:19 PM
At this point it is slightly annoying to discover that you didn't spot the guidebar earlier - but compared to the bad feelings that it would have provoked much later, after something had happened ….. I'm sure you're glad to have to correct it now  :LittleAngel:

Great build as usual from you  :praise2:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Roger B on January 17, 2019, 06:04:20 PM
Every time I look in there is so much more to see  :praise2:  :praise2: Is that a Proxxon drill your Elf is using a few pages back?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 17, 2019, 06:28:55 PM
At this point it is slightly annoying to discover that you didn't spot the guidebar earlier - but compared to the bad feelings that it would have provoked much later, after something had happened ….. I'm sure you're glad to have to correct it now  :LittleAngel:

Great build as usual from you  :praise2:
Yeah, even knowing now that there should be some kind of guide, its really hard to spot in the phitos, dim lighting, lots of overlapping parts all covered in diet. I will put up a pic of it in a little while, hard to spot even in person. Wish I could get in there at will but glad to have any access!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 17, 2019, 06:31:31 PM
Every time I look in there is so much more to see  :praise2: :praise2: Is that a Proxxon drill your Elf is using a few pages back?
Yes, thats the proxxon drill press, handy for little stuff, stalls on larger drills in metal but great for small parts and wood. I got it years ago for the ship model work. Comes in handy for drilling holes in the floor plates, it can go to the model, and can swing the headstock over to the side to get over other parts.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 17, 2019, 07:05:46 PM
Okay, just to record the locations (partly for my own reference later), here are some shots of that valve slider area.
This is looking from behind the engine (am standing at the boiler smokebox), looking at the right side hoist engine cylinder. The cylinder itself is at the upper right, behind the lube pump. Looks like the valve rod slider is in a housing coming off the back of the slew gear upright, which is at the upper center and left. The housing goes behind the lube pump, which is driven from that lever in the center just to the right of the word "slider".
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZYvV2Kdt/IMG-1433a.jpg)
Here is another view of the same thing, taken from over the top of the slew drum. Just a little bit of stuff packed in! The stuff on the right half is the slew engine crankshaft housing, that is one of the con rods for it just under the word 'slew'. The valve rod slider is just visible on the left, the valve rod gland is between the words 'slider' and 'stephenson', well, at least the top adjusting nut is!

(https://i.postimg.cc/L6dNpKtq/IMG-1410a.jpg)
Then I was wondering why I did not see it on the left hand cylinder. Well, that has the large slew gear in the way!
(https://i.postimg.cc/brngt3hN/DSC-7359a.jpg)
They did not waste much space! just to get from one side to the other you have to climb over the slew engine and the backstay rod (which supports the main A-frame at the turntable). 105 tons in a 50 ton box!  :Lol:
So, on to start up Fusion and design up a slider/holder for the end of the valve rod. I thought originally it didnt need one, but I was used to engines with a very long stephenson link which minimizes the rocking movement of the link. As Admiral-DK said, glad I found it know rather than after running at speed and having something bind and bend!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 17, 2019, 08:02:56 PM
Okay, a little playing in Fusion, and the slider support arm bits are laid out. I will bolt it to the back of the steam chest base, and the screw through the clevis at the reverzse link will hold the clevis to the slider. The slider has a wider flange at the back of the support arm to keep it from moving horizontally. Should do the trick, basically a mini crosshead trunk. The new parts are the darker solid grey ones, the existing parts are the mottled gray ones. Well, except for the stephenson link, that is also darker gray. Whoops.  :shrug:
(https://i.postimg.cc/MTmptj80/Valve-Slider-Support.jpg)
The bolts to hold it to the steam chest base are offset from the center of the arm, this is since the steam chest bolts are partway into the base right there, and this avoids them. I cannot put a bolt in the center area, or it would go into the steam passage to the cylinder. These positions should miss everything, and everything looks to clear the other parts of the gear train. The control arm for the reverse link is not shown, that goes on the near side, up from the floor to the horizontal bolt at the top of the reverse link.
So, that is the next couple parts to make! Simple shapes so should not take the elves long to knock out the pair of them. They also need to start making a bunch of elbows for all the steam piping... I better thaw out some more cookies!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on January 17, 2019, 08:03:37 PM
That’s some cool shit Dog, but I am curious about the slew engine. That will be a real nice fabrication work to make it. Not that you can’t handle it mind you just that it will be some interesting work...... :ThumbsUp:


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 17, 2019, 08:30:44 PM
That’s some cool shit Dog, but I am curious about the slew engine. That will be a real nice fabrication work to make it. Not that you can’t handle it mind you just that it will be some interesting work...... :ThumbsUp:


 :cheers:
Don
Oh yeah, the slew engine is a real doosy - it has a number of neat features, like the D-valves are double-layered with 4 ports in the valve face, and there is a center valve that is both throttle and reverse/forward, so there is only one eccentric per cylinder. Fortunately I found the original patent for it, which included a whole series of cross section drawings for all the internal parts and steam/exhaust passages. It does the reversing by swapping which passages are used for the steam and exhaust. I was able to piece up in 3D where all the passages went, and came up with a slightly simplified version that uses another d-valve in the center for the throttle rather than the original spool valve. Its going to be quite interesting to make - I need to make two, one for slew, one for crowd, identical, then one more at 1/3rd smaller size for the steering engine. I have never seen this valving used on any other manufacturers engine, Marion developed it and used it for years. It has fewer moving parts than a standard engine, and is more compact, but it did require some seriously complex sand casting patterns.
(https://i.postimg.cc/V6CQCB5Z/Slew-Engine.png)
The two longer valve rods on top are linked to the eccentrics, and the center shorter rod is the throttle/reverse/fwd control rod.

More to come on this in coming weeks!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on January 17, 2019, 11:34:44 PM
Cool Chris my mind is already thinking on how to go about it very interesting and intricate work..... :ThumbsUp:

 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 18, 2019, 02:00:47 AM
Cool Chris my mind is already thinking on how to go about it very interesting and intricate work..... :ThumbsUp:

 :cheers:
Don
I picked up a selection of the 1144 stressproof steel, figure it will be a good time to try it out, at minimum for the crankshaft.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on January 18, 2019, 04:49:37 AM
1144 responds differently than, say, 12L, in that it seems to say 'open' much longer than 12L. It doesn't seem to 'smear' and produce the shine as soon as 12L..

I've found that if I leave an extra thou or two, at the most, for a final polish I can hit the dimension and get that nice finish.

Sorta like removing the fuzzies or something. Can't really feel it either....

 :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 18, 2019, 02:57:13 PM
1144 responds differently than, say, 12L, in that it seems to say 'open' much longer than 12L. It doesn't seem to 'smear' and produce the shine as soon as 12L..

I've found that if I leave an extra thou or two, at the most, for a final polish I can hit the dimension and get that nice finish.

Sorta like removing the fuzzies or something. Can't really feel it either....

 :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Pete
Do you finish it off with a very light slow feed cut, or with a file/sanding? I haven't had a chance to cut any yet. Its interesting to see the dark color on the outside from the heat treating.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on January 18, 2019, 03:23:04 PM
I must admit I haven't tried a shear tool yet but I'm not sure it would be better. 1144, at least for me, doesn't make that 'shine' without some fine abrasive paper. I could be doing something wrong but that's how it seems to work for me... :shrug:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 18, 2019, 04:06:08 PM
I must admit I haven't tried a shear tool yet but I'm not sure it would be better. 1144, at least for me, doesn't make that 'shine' without some fine abrasive paper. I could be doing something wrong but that's how it seems to work for me... :shrug:

Pete
Thanks! Will do some experimenting with it.   :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 18, 2019, 06:50:05 PM
Got a good start on the valve rod supports today, started with some brass bar stock and milled out the outline:
(https://i.postimg.cc/508W78c7/IMG-4273.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/25bDWP0f/IMG-4274.jpg)
Followed by the center slot:
(https://i.postimg.cc/mrvGy8n1/IMG-4275.jpg)
And drilled the mounting holes in the bases:
(https://i.postimg.cc/2ymRP3rz/IMG-4276.jpg)
Next up will be the sliders for them, and drill/tap the holes in the steam chest bases....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 18, 2019, 10:01:58 PM
And the sliders for the valve rod support milled out of a offcut bit of 303 stainless...
(https://i.postimg.cc/ryDCRcXp/IMG-4277.jpg)
Need to drill/tap the holes in the steam chest bases, and also in the sliders for the screw from the clevis end...

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on January 18, 2019, 11:50:20 PM
They look great Chris.  :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:

WOOP WOOP WOOP bad pun alert!                      WOOP WOOP WOOP bad pun alert!               
  WOOP WOOP WOOP bad pun alert!
              WOOP WOOP WOOP bad pun alert!

Do the sliders fit to a T (shape)?     

(sorry)   
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 18, 2019, 11:56:07 PM
They look great Chris.  :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:

WOOP WOOP WOOP bad pun alert!                      WOOP WOOP WOOP bad pun alert!               
  WOOP WOOP WOOP bad pun alert!
              WOOP WOOP WOOP bad pun alert!

Do the sliders fit to a T (shape)?     

(sorry)


Ooohhh!     :facepalm:


:facepalm2: :facepalm: :facepalm2: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm2:



Bad pun, though it taught me the move feature...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Stuart on January 19, 2019, 04:01:07 PM
They look great Chris.  :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:

WOOP WOOP WOOP bad pun alert!                      WOOP WOOP WOOP bad pun alert!               
  WOOP WOOP WOOP bad pun alert!
              WOOP WOOP WOOP bad pun alert!

Do the sliders fit to a T (shape)?     

(sorry)


Your taxi is waiting outside.  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 19, 2019, 05:55:38 PM
The parts are all installed for the valve rod supports:
(https://i.postimg.cc/286z3w5f/IMG-4278.jpg)
and things are about ready for pushing some compressed air in:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Qxyj7TBK/IMG-4280.jpg)
Am making up the temporary tubing connections now to the compressor, then will start fine tuning the timing of the valves. That will take somewhere between 5 minutes and 2 days, depending on how many times I go from 'not quite far enough advance' to 'ooops, too much' to 'too far back again' to 'oops, it slipped, start over'....  :Lol:
Once it is running I'll get a video posted and a fresh plate of cookies out to share with the elves while we watch it go round!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 19, 2019, 06:32:55 PM
Well, it can't be that easy, can it?   :shrug:

Hooked up the air line to the left cylinder, added a dash of air pressure, and it wanted to run - if there was a flywheel on it I think it would have, but all there is is the small crank discs. Turning it by hand to help, it was self-rotating starting at the right points just after TDC and BDC, and almost making it around the far end. hand turning it slowly, and could feel where the valve was opening/closing.

So far so good!

Swapped the air line over to the right hand cylinder, and it was off about 10 or 15 degrees, so a few changes on the eccentric position and it got to the same point as the left one.

Wow, got lucky on the centering of the valve travel, I was afraid I would have to undo/tweak/redo the valve slider several times, but that looks right. I am in the process of making up a barbed T fitting so I can connect both at once and it SHOULD spin - once both are on the sound while running will tell a lot about the timing correctness....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 19, 2019, 07:52:13 PM
And we are off!

Got the tee made for the air hose, needed one more tweak to the eccentric timing on the right hand engine, and it just took off and ran - grabbed the camera, and got this video after it was already started. It was running on about 10 or 15 psi, no air leaks other than at the input hoses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXPiBeCPP40

 :cartwheel:

Here it is self starting for the second run, started at around 15 psi.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS8dL5dfHKM

In this position of the reverse linkage, it is set for lowering dow on the dipper bucket, which is the same for forward direction on the tracks (I know, that seems odd, but the track gears were a later refit, and they probably didn't care about the directions since they would be done seperately). I have tried it on the opposite direction, for lifting the hoist chain, but it looks like that direction needs a slight tweak to the control linkage. But, the engine itself runs!

 :whoohoo: :pinkelephant: :cartwheel: :pinkelephant: :whoohoo: :pinkelephant: :cartwheel:

Time for some cookies with the elves, and come back to look at the linkage for hoisting later....
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: MJM460 on January 19, 2019, 08:31:59 PM
Well done!  Magnificent to see it running already.  I bet you needed a lot of cookies after that.

 A bit more running in then see if it will lift the boom?

MJM460
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 19, 2019, 08:51:48 PM
Hero cookie for you, Big Guy!!! :cartwheel: :cartwheel: :cartwheel:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 19, 2019, 08:59:49 PM
Well done!  Magnificent to see it running already.  I bet you needed a lot of cookies after that.

 A bit more running in then see if it will lift the boom?

MJM460
Definitely! Once the opposite direction is fixed, should be able to lift the boom and make another video!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 19, 2019, 09:00:15 PM
Hero cookie for you, Big Guy!!! :cartwheel: :cartwheel: :cartwheel:
Yummm... munch... munch... Good one!

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 19, 2019, 09:05:51 PM
Okay, been doing some experimenting, looking, measuring, and think I have the issue narrowed down to the throw on the reverse link from the control lever up front. The throw will go too far in the reverse direction,  and not far enough in forward. The middle of that control rod, under the floor, has a coupler connecting the two halves of the rod through all of the cross beams it goes through the center of (worked out best to do that so it was easier to install the rods - Marion did the same thing). This can be re-centered by seperating the two halves of the rod slightly, but the coupler in there does not have enough slop in it. So, I will remake the coupler with a longer tube so I can adjust the throw position. The coupler is just a length of round bar, drilled down the center for the rods, with a pair of grub screws on the side.

Enough crawling around under the model for today, will rest on my laurels for the evening and tackle that tomorrow.

Thanks all for watching along!

Now, wheres that cookie.... Ahah! the elves are trying to drag the bag into the other room... Get back here!   :LickLips:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on January 19, 2019, 11:35:09 PM
Ma sha that there thing she runs like that mud boat yea!... :lolb: love it Dog just love it!

Don

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on January 20, 2019, 12:04:59 AM
Congrats Chris! the hoist engine runs great! Amazing work.  :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on January 20, 2019, 12:17:43 AM
Always fun to see it run for the first time!  Congratulations, Chris!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 20, 2019, 12:21:48 AM
Oh yeah, first run on any engine is a blast!


Test, tweak, test, tweak... repeat... Then it just takes off, big grin!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 20, 2019, 03:04:54 AM
As is my usual pattern with a logic problem, along about 10pm, while watching TV or reading, the back of my brain figures out the answer to a confusing puzzle from earlier in the day and smacks me in the forehead.




The real issue on the reverse gear was that the linkage from the control arm under the floor to the Stephenson linkage was coming up at an angle that got steeper as the eccentrics went through thier cycle. Doh! That is changing the hieght of the link during the motion, and is worse at the forward setting.


So, the real solution is not changing the coupling as I thought earlier, I need to modify where on the stephenson link that the control arm connects, so the arm goes back and forth evenly either side of vertical rather than off to one side and farther off the same side!


 :facepalm:


To paraphrase the old saying,  Oh sh*t, geometry works!



Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on January 20, 2019, 03:43:53 AM
Aayyhhh yup!

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 20, 2019, 03:49:02 AM
Aayyhhh yup!

Pete


Having spent a lot of time in Maine I would say  Ayuh.  Ayuh.


 :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on January 20, 2019, 06:24:11 AM
 :lolb: :lolb:

 :naughty:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: sco on January 20, 2019, 02:25:46 PM
Just brilliant to watch those videos Chris !

Still following you with interest,

Simon.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 20, 2019, 03:46:19 PM
I know that my description last night may not have been very clear of the issue on the control link, so here is a quick sketch, with the sizes exagerated a bit for clarity.

(https://i.postimg.cc/JnYtqh00/Control-Link.jpg)On the left is what it should have looked like, with the travel of the control arm from the bell crank under the floor up to the Stephenson linkage. The travel is centered, so the vertical movement at the valve rod is small. On the right is how mine came out - since there is a cross-beam under the floor, I could not move the bell crank pivot back under the linkage, so it started at an angle and got worse during the travel, meaning a large vertical movement. That vertical movement changes where the valve rod hits the Stephenson link, messing up the movements. It is more movement than on most engines, since the Stephenson link is very short. So, I am going to change where the control arm connects to the link to make it act like the one on the left. Pics to come later as I make the corrected part....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 20, 2019, 09:13:51 PM
After some more measurements, experimenting, research, and cogitation, I decided to redesign the Stephenson link and control arm to put the pivot in the center of the two straps to the eccentric, where it gets minimal movement from the rotation/rocking of the ends. This is the way it is on my Kozo New Shay build, and that works very well.
So, started on the re-make of the links, with the two blanks stacked and screwed to a bit of aluminum for drilling/milling:
(https://i.postimg.cc/jSzCD7wQ/IMG-4284.jpg)
Here it is with the outside taken down, and the corners rounded off on the belt sander:
(https://i.postimg.cc/mrBkCg7x/IMG-4287.jpg)
I had to confiscate them from the shop elves, who thought they were brass knuckles....   :Lol:

The center hole of the three will get a post added to let the control arm clear the clevises - start on that tomorrow....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on January 21, 2019, 12:37:01 AM
Just got back from the Cabin Fever Expo and am catching up.  All I can say is
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:  :pinkelephant::ThumbsUp: :pinkelephant: :cartwheel:

And then....  :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 21, 2019, 12:48:20 AM
Just got back from the Cabin Fever Expo and am catching up.  All I can say is
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :pinkelephant: :ThumbsUp: :pinkelephant: :cartwheel:

And then....  :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:


 :cheers:


Hope you enjoyed the show. The weather here would have made traveling down to PA pretty nasty, hope I can go next year.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 21, 2019, 05:26:56 PM
This morning I got the extension posts onto the middle hole in the reverse links - these will hold the control arm out beyond the clevises. The posts are threaded on the inside, and have a shoulder at one end to fit into the hole in the link to keep it aligned for silver soldering.
(https://i.postimg.cc/y6MCdG7Z/IMG-4288.jpg)

And they are installed, appear to be moving correctly, and the vertical motion during the cycle is gone.
(https://i.postimg.cc/027RJCNH/IMG-4291.jpg)

Ran an air test, and looks like I need to retime it again, not surprising in that the motion before was a bit wacky. I think the valve sliders need to be recentered, which is a pain to do but thats part of the game. Time for lunch first!  Oh, anbd you may notice that the large slew gear is not in the photo, got tired of working through the spokes and took that axle out for now.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 21, 2019, 06:12:11 PM
On a side note, got sent this photo of the prototype Lombard Log Hauler which was his first experiment with a gas engine - it is a standard steam chassis/tracks with a Brennan 4 cylinder egine on top. The engine has a 9" bore, 10" stroke, 4 cylinders. Notice the row of radiators at the front - standard iron house radiators! It was built in 1909.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QM3pdhyy/First-gasoline-tractor.jpg)
Here is what they looked like by the time they went into production with a gas version:
(https://i.postimg.cc/vmhfsXQ5/DSC-6098b.jpg)
Okay, back to the steam shovel....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: scc on January 21, 2019, 07:14:38 PM
Interesting development Chris.   I wonder why they put the engine weight over the front axle rather than over the drive tracks. :headscratch:     Terry
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 21, 2019, 07:30:47 PM
Interesting development Chris.   I wonder why they put the engine weight over the front axle rather than over the drive tracks. :headscratch:     Terry
The rear area above the tracks was used as a cargo deck. Having the engine forward may have been to give the wheels enough bite to steer in the summer, not sure. I will ask Terry up there...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 21, 2019, 08:02:01 PM
Getting close on the timing - the new linkages are working quite well, but I drilled the left control arm pivot holes just a little too far apart, and the links are not even with the right hand ones. So, need to drill another hole slightly lower and hope to finish the timing.

Both cylinders needed the valve center adjusted a bit - I did the right one first, and removing/replacing the steam chest cover was a pain in the elves patooties since the steam chests face each other and the backstay rod is between them. Need to find a mini ratchet handle for my Wiha sockets to get into narrow spaces at a right angle. Got that one adjusted, back together finally, and was about to start on the left side one when I noticed that I could just see the bottom of the valve through the exhaust port! That one went much quicker, using a magnifier headset and a light to see into the port, could just see the inside edges of the d valve at either end of the travel.
Taking a break from it for a while, went and cleared the driveway again, will fix the control arm later or tomorrow...
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 21, 2019, 10:50:17 PM
Interesting development Chris.   I wonder why they put the engine weight over the front axle rather than over the drive tracks. :headscratch:     Terry

I asked Terry up at the museum about it, wondering if it was for the steering or to leave cargo room, here is is answer (he has done LOTS of research into the Lombards).
-----------------------
A little of both. Like a tractor pulling at a pulling competition at a fair, the machine wants to pivot raising the front end. That long moment arm with the weight of the engine offsets it to a considerable degreeand of course that weight on the front allows the skis to be more effective.
Interestingly most of the surviving Wisconsin engines have had the bottom of the oil pan knocked out. This was caused by trying to start sleds that had frozen in. The friction heats up the runners (much like an ice skate) then whenthey stop they cool-off and freeze in. The standard procedure was to start the sleds by pulling at a slight angle to break them loose one at a time. Sometimes they didn't do this - resulting in the front of the machine rearing-up and slamming back down.Often the motor mount bolts would break and the engine would slam down on the cross member knocking a hole in the oil pan. My motor has a wonderful backwoods patch because of this.
Yes, they used the platform from time to time for carrying stuff such as fuel drums or perhaps some supplies heading for a camp.
Here is another tidbit: All (5 total) of the surviving gasoline Lombards that came from Lacroix's Madawaska Co. operations in the Allagash had  every other grouser on the track pads ground off. This was to increase the point load on the remaininggrousers and increased traction considerably.
------------------------
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 21, 2019, 10:50:54 PM
And - major milestone - video uploading now.....   


 :whoohoo: :whoohoo: :whoohoo: :whoohoo: :whoohoo: :whoohoo:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 21, 2019, 11:01:30 PM
 :whoohoo:       :pinkelephant:     :cartwheel:

All right! It Works!!!

 :whoohoo: :whoohoo: :whoohoo: :whoohoo:

Ahem.


Yes.

Where was I? Oh yes - got the last mods made to the control link for the hoist engine reverse gear and finished retiming it. All that looked good, runs fairly well, with the exception of the fact that the blue loctite I had put in the left side crank pin threads was obviously not enough, and when running in the hoisting direction it unscrews itself after a minute or so! 

But, good enough for a test with the hoist gear train hooked back up - put in my manifold so I could have the hoist clutch (which is also steam operated on a handle at the front control station) in play, moved the model back to give it room to raise the bucket, started the camera, and got this:
[youtube1]https://youtu.be/Ha_j5vybxh0[/youtube1]

 8)     :whoohoo:     :pinkelephant:     :cartwheel:     8)

The hoist throttle is not made yet, so I just started the engine off the compressor knob and left it running - it only needed about 15 psi for this run, which I am very happy with. I could have used the brake band to control the lowering, but didnt think of it in time.   ::)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: tvoght on January 21, 2019, 11:04:41 PM
You have got to be happy about that!
--TIm
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 21, 2019, 11:28:50 PM
Happy dance for you!!! :cartwheel: :cartwheel: :pinkelephant:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on January 21, 2019, 11:29:36 PM
That is just too cool, Chris!  :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on January 21, 2019, 11:31:22 PM
Hello Chris,

Way cool and it looked so smooth and positive.  :cheers:

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on January 21, 2019, 11:43:47 PM
That is one brave Elf standing in front of the bucket.
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 21, 2019, 11:45:13 PM
That is one brave Elf standing in front of the bucket.
Gerald.
He is the range safety officer!   :Lol:

Yup,. looking good.... Looking good.... Not so far forwar.... (Squish)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on January 22, 2019, 12:05:50 AM
Great video Chris, and wonderful to see it working.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

That's one RSO that was glad to be just out of range!  :naughty:

High regards too for your diagnostic skills to figure out the control linkage issues. They are not easy sometimes.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dave Otto on January 22, 2019, 12:52:18 AM
That's pretty cool Chris.
Great progress!

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on January 22, 2019, 08:11:57 AM
 :whoohoo: :whoohoo:

There be a  :pinkelephant: :pinkelephant: in the shop tonight!!

Well done Chris!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: sco on January 22, 2019, 08:13:35 AM
Just brilliant Chris!

Simon.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on January 22, 2019, 01:43:44 PM
Engines reverse in quick order!!  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 22, 2019, 01:54:33 PM
Engines reverse in quick order!!  :cheers:


The engine is running at constant forward speed throughout this test, I was moving the clutch lever to control the raising and lowering of the bucket. The engine throttle valve has not been made yet so it was just turned on to around 15 psi at the compressor.


I did test it last night with the tracks, could only move 6 inches on the table but it had plenty of power to move, the gear reduction to the track is 20 to 1. Very happy with the runs, now a bunch of little cleanups, paint touchups, and reassembly. Need to make the last gear guards too, then on to the slew engine.


Thanks all!!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Firebird on January 22, 2019, 07:03:50 PM
Ohhhh yeeeeesssss  :ThumbsUp:

Cheers

Rich
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: scc on January 22, 2019, 07:24:29 PM
Wonderful progress Chris :ThumbsUp:  Thanks too for the Lombard info...makes sense doesn't it.      Terry
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on January 22, 2019, 09:43:06 PM
Dog, Dog, awwww man that is just to slick and happier than squirrel on a bag of nuts. That is one bad ass machine Chris and I am waiting to see the slew engine construction work.......did I say ........I ..........like......... :Love:


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 22, 2019, 10:22:47 PM
Too cool for words. So... :pinkelephant: :whoohoo: :pinkelephant: :whoohoo: :cartwheel:

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 22, 2019, 10:43:04 PM
Thanks very much everyone! Its great to see the engine, gearing, clutch, chains, everything all moving as they should after so much time getting to this point. The engine has plenty of power even at 15 psi. Going to be grinning for a while with this one.


 :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on January 23, 2019, 12:05:37 AM
Chris , that's lovely  really cool  11/10.... was wondering about safety devices if you are a bit slow on the controls ?? are there slipping clutches or disengagement pauls or something ?? I may have missed something over the last 200 posts ?!!! Looking forward to the completion >>>

Willy
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 23, 2019, 02:24:54 AM
Chris , that's lovely  really cool  11/10.... was wondering about safety devices if you are a bit slow on the controls ?? are there slipping clutches or disengagement pauls or something ?? I may have missed something over the last 200 posts ?!!! Looking forward to the completion >>>

Willy


Safety devices in early 1900s US?   NOT!


Well, the dipper boom has a stop ramp at the end so it can't fall out, and it runs out of rack at the middle so you can't go too far in. Marion states in thier catalog that they sized thier engines to stall before breaking anything else or lifting too heavy a load. I doubt a person in the way would stop anything though! The real one shows plenty of gouges on the front corners of the frame were they clipped it with the bucket.


For the model, it is a concern, not sure where the failure points would be, have to be careful. The shop elves have to take a breathalyzer test before operating it!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 23, 2019, 05:42:29 PM
This morning I got a bunch of the parts re-assembled (still need to put the slew gear and gear guards back on), and did some more timing tweaking on the hoist engine. I put in a couple of shutoff valves, one on each input hose, so I could isolate the cylinders, and also disconnected the con-rods from the crank. That let me put on low pressure, and hand-turn the crank to see when the valve tripped over in fine detail. That got everything balanced out, and now it will run decently in both directions. Here is proof (you can see the shutoff valves on the left side of the picture) :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8xxtSdIlmY
So, will get the gear/guards back on, and have to make a couple more guards for the hoist gears/crankshaft, then can start in on the hoist throttle and its piping.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on January 23, 2019, 06:39:56 PM
And it works!  That's pretty exciting Chris!  Both forward and reverse.  And self starting in both directions.  You must be feeling pretty good about that!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Admiral_dk on January 23, 2019, 09:23:34 PM
Congratulations for another important "milestone" in this great build Chris :cheers:

Can some of the other "Peanuts" please pass the  :popcorn: and pour a refill  :DrinkPint:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 23, 2019, 11:31:01 PM
Thanks guys!
This afternoon I got all the bits and pieces that I had taken off to get at the engine back in place, made the last couple of gear guards, and did a little touch up painting on all the nicks and dings in the floor plates. So, figured it was time for a couple new family shots:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ydd8zVZ9/IMG-4337.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/ydbY1wmG/IMG-4338.jpg)
 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on January 23, 2019, 11:45:57 PM
Looking great Chris!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Art K on January 24, 2019, 12:13:53 AM
Chris,
Good job, looks great.
Art
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steam Haulage on January 24, 2019, 08:29:13 AM
Chris, Are those hard hats typical for the engine's era?

Jerry :old:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 24, 2019, 01:05:39 PM
Chris, Are those hard hats typical for the engine's era?

Jerry :old:
Probably not for when it was new, though it was used till 1949. When did hard hats come into use? Maybe I can reshape them into bowler hats...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on January 24, 2019, 03:04:40 PM
Chris, it's great to see something moving under it's own power! Well done.  :ThumbsUp:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on January 24, 2019, 03:13:47 PM
Wow  that's beautiful    Museum quality really,  as always something to aspire to....Did the makers ever make small models to show their customers ??

Willy
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 24, 2019, 03:47:30 PM
Wow  that's beautiful    Museum quality really,  as always something to aspire to....Did the makers ever make small models to show their customers ??

Willy
I have never seen salesman models of these, don't know if they used them. They did print catalog books with tons of pictures, I have a few. Also have an old employee ID badge, logo'd tape measure and watch fob.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 24, 2019, 03:47:59 PM
Chris, it's great to see something moving under it's own power! Well done.  :ThumbsUp:

Jim
Thanks Jim!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 24, 2019, 06:54:05 PM
Its a good thing I like fish, since I need to make a carp-load of elbows for the engine piping.   :Jester:

While I am making the ones for the main engine, will also make them for the other three, including a couple of T-shapes. These are simple style elbows, will look like the screw-in plumbing ones with no end flanges, though they will be soldered in place on the pipes. There will be a couple of places (like at the boiler and the valves) where there will be straight flanged bolt-together joints.

So far, got the blanks cut and squared up, ready for the lathe to turn the ends and drill the passages, then will sand the corners to match like I did for the smaller ones a while back for the hoist clutch piping (those are still sitting in the drawer waiting to be installed - they connect into the steam supply piping that these elbows will be for).

(https://i.postimg.cc/qMvsXXfw/IMG-4339.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on January 24, 2019, 08:15:55 PM
When did hard hats come into use?

I remember reading stories about their invention during the construction of Hoover dam - so we're talking mid to late 1930's.

The story was that with all the falling rock from the cleaning of the canyon walls, when they were preparing the anchor points for the dam, something was needed to protect the workers on the ground below.  If I remember correctly, hard hats started out as 2 baseball caps dipped in hot asphalt and then put together, with one bill to the front and the other to the back.  There was at least one picture from the dam construction showing a guy wearing a hat that looked like it had 2 bills.

I can't remember the name of the book, but I do remember it was about the construction of the dam and about Six Companies Inc., the outfit that built the dam.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 24, 2019, 08:21:09 PM
When did hard hats come into use?

I remember reading stories about their invention during the construction of Hoover dam - so we're talking mid to late 1930's.

The story was that with all the falling rock from the cleaning of the canyon walls, when they were preparing the anchor points for the dam, something was needed to protect the workers on the ground below.  If I remember correctly, hard hats started out as 2 baseball caps dipped in hot asphalt and then put together, with one bill to the front and the other to the back.  There was at least one picture from the dam construction showing a guy wearing a hat that looked like it had 2 bills.

I can't remember the name of the book, but I do remember it was about the construction of the dam and about Six Companies Inc., the outfit that built the dam.

Don


Neat, though I hope they let the asphalt cool before wearing!   :o    :Lol:


Somewhere there must be a safety equipment museum...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on January 24, 2019, 08:48:21 PM
Not sure about a museum, but I did run across this site when researching hard hats for mining a few years ago. Interesting firm and products. According to their blurb at the link below, their "hard boiled hats" date back to 1919. Most people I've seen in old pictures of factories and construction projects seem to be wearing ordinary cloth caps. Might have been a cost factor involved, I'm sure workers would have to supply their own caps and probably the Bullard or similar products would have cost quite a bit more than the cloth caps - money most ordinary working guys needed for other things, like feeding their families, rent, etc.

https://www.bullard.com/history-of-the-hard-hat
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on January 25, 2019, 12:14:44 AM
Man, didn't get to this thread for a few days and look at the progress!

Fantastic Chris, bravo!!!  Drinks all around  :DrinkPint:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: scc on January 25, 2019, 10:39:45 AM
Just noticed ref to Bullard. com :o  Checked it out as it's my surname....been using angle grinder inside full size boiler all week! could do with some of their head gear!!!  Sorry to digress Chris,  that  machine looks better every post. If it was mine I'd just sit and look at it for hours :popcorn:  but then (sacriledge) I'd want to take it outside and DIG something :naughty:     Great job Chris :praise2:

Terry
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 25, 2019, 11:04:04 PM
No problem at all on the hard-hat diversion, interesting stuff!
Got a bunch done on the piping elbows yesterday and today, with the blanks all trimmed to the same size it went pretty quick to turn the ends and drill the holes (larger hole for the first .200" then smaller one into the middle of the corner), first one side
(https://i.postimg.cc/50jDmBpC/IMG-4340.jpg)
then the other

(https://i.postimg.cc/nhJbtQVy/IMG-4341.jpg)
That left the section at the intersection still square. So, onto the rotary table to mill one side round
(https://i.postimg.cc/N0s3KqHb/IMG-4342.jpg)
Then the other (am seeing a pattern here....)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Sxf0QNJJ/IMG-4343.jpg)
Then a few minutes on the belt sander to take the inside corners off, and they are ready for some final smoothing with a file:
(https://i.postimg.cc/rpfvWnGT/IMG-4344.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on January 25, 2019, 11:11:57 PM
Just another hitch on the post Dog. Damn man you got those elf’s working overtime again.... :lolb:



 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 25, 2019, 11:15:12 PM
Just another hitch on the post Dog. Damn man you got those elf’s working overtime again.... :lolb:



 :cheers:
Don
Shhhhh!!!  Dont let them hear you!  I got them convinced that a 20 hour day is standard!!   :Jester:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Admiral_dk on January 26, 2019, 04:46:33 PM
Yet more fast progress - impressive  :ThumbsUp:

Chris - you could easily "modify" the elves helmets to be matching the period - look at the top right picture :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_hat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_hat)

And as the story goes, the first ones where from 1898, next generation from the son of the founder, in 1919 and the third same year.

So a bit of brown colour solves the time ....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 26, 2019, 07:27:09 PM
Yet more fast progress - impressive  :ThumbsUp:

Chris - you could easily "modify" the elves helmets to be matching the period - look at the top right picture :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_hat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_hat)

And as the story goes, the first ones where from 1898, next generation from the son of the founder, in 1919 and the third same year.

So a bit of brown colour solves the time ....
That works! Get rid of the bright plastic color... Some of the other ones where they were aluminum could work too. Maybe shave off some of the ribs. Thanks!

Hope it passes inspection by the elve's union, the
Shop
Trained
Elves
Association of
Metalworkers
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 26, 2019, 08:20:12 PM
That helps - sent them back to the costume department for a hat re-spray...  Still need to stand them in front of some grime and coal dust spray...
(https://i.postimg.cc/xCsZSVP8/IMG-4345.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 27, 2019, 03:00:23 PM
Next part for the steam shovel model is going to be the hoist engine throttle, which is not the usual globe or needle valve. They made this one a piston valve, with a set of tapered ports and an extra bypass for freewe-wheeling the engine. Here are the drawings from their original patent:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y06vpYSX/US1102410-hoisting-throttle-2.jpg)

The steam comes in through the pipe at the bottom (12), and out to the cylinders on each side through pipes (17) on the sides. There is a thin sleeve on the inside with the tapered ports cut into it (18) that are uncovered as the piston plunger (19) is raised. It looks like they had piston rings top and bottom on it. The valve body has a recess cut around at the level of the ports (18) to connect them all, so that all of the ports around the sleeve transmit steam, not just the couple over the outlet pipes. There is also a recess in the center of the piston (23) that connects the outlet ports when the piston is all the way down - this connects the output ports together and to a small pipe to the exhaust (22) which allows the engine to freewheel, and so let the bucket lower under its own weight without releasing the drum clutch. This was a big feature, so the operator could hoist, hold, and lower the bucket with one lever, depending on which ports were connected/uncovered in the valve. Now, this freewheel feature does not work well at the model scale - I have tried it by hand pulling on the hoist chain, and it would require a fair bit of weight in the bucket to spin the engine through the gears. In the real thing there are tons of weight, on the model there are ounces!

When looking through all this, I was wondering why the piston in the valve did not act as a piston itself, and get shoved upwards by the steam pressure on its base. Finally found a sentance in the patent that mentioned there would be a hole drilled through the piston to allow steam into the upper section to balance the pressure and let the valve piston move freely.

Another thing they had in the patent was another port (14) which engaged the hoist clutch at the start of the plunger movement automatically. On the real machine in LeRoy, this is not there, instead by then Marion had gone to a separate control lever for that clutch - I don't know if they ever sold a machine with that feature, but they thought of it for the patent and included it.

So much for the history lesson! You there, in the back, wake up! For the model, I am going to try and build the valve pretty as they had it, though I may dummy in the freewheel pipe, and will leave off the clutch pipe since the machine here does not have it. Should be interesting to see how it works out - if it does not, I can always fall back to a needle valve that looks like this on the outside, but it should work as drawn in small scale. Cutting the tapered ports is going to require some work with the dental burs, they will be pretty small. The entire valve body is only about 5/8" long - will need to channel George Britnell on this one!   :Lol:
Here is a picture of the real valve in the shovel in LeRoy.

(https://i.postimg.cc/zf7pfHyG/DSC-6669.jpg)
The blue arrow shows the inlet steam pipe from the boiler. It was cut and a smaller pipe installed to the front when they connected it to an air compressor to drive it out of the quarry and park it across the road in 1949. The green arrows point at the outlet pipes going to the hoist engine cylinders. The one on the left looks to be a later replacement, the diameter is smaller and the elbow does not match the rest in the piping system. The red arrows show the control rod coming from the cab, and the control lever that moves the plunger in the valve. That big rectanglur bar going under the valve is the backstay from the top of the A-frame down to the frame under the boiler.


Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 27, 2019, 06:51:49 PM
Started on the throttle valve by taking a piece of brass tubing cut to length for the inner sleeve, and used a small tapered diamond coated dental bur to make the tapered slots in the side. These slots are uncovered, from the small end first, by the inner plunger. This sleeve will be held in place by the top/bottom caps on the valve body, so it is removeable - that will let me play with the slot shapes and sizes if need be to get a decent throttle action.
(https://i.postimg.cc/brLsDn73/IMG-4349.jpg)
Next will turn the plunger, then move on to the valve body...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 27, 2019, 08:12:13 PM
And turned the valve plunger out of some 303 stainless, to be a sliding fit in the sleeve. The control rod was drilled for and loctited into place, and a small hole for balancing the pressure on either side drilled through just outside the rod.
(https://i.postimg.cc/KYhXg8nM/IMG-4352.jpg)
Next up is the valve body - think I will make and silver solder on the two side flanges, then bore the center hole for the sleeve...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on January 28, 2019, 05:09:42 PM
When I grow up I want to be just like you. Oh wait, I am grown up well like you anyway ...... :lolb:
Looking great Chris ........ :ThumbsUp:


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 28, 2019, 07:43:27 PM
When I grow up I want to be just like you. Oh wait, I am grown up well like you anyway ...... :lolb:
Looking great Chris ........ :ThumbsUp:


 :cheers:
Don
Well, looks like you have the beard, and you know how to machine, you are there!   :Lol:    :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 28, 2019, 07:57:10 PM
I am currently working on the hoist engine throttle body (pics later today), but the 3D-printed mockup parts I had made at Shapeways arrived this afternoon.   :cartwheel:
(https://i.postimg.cc/B6BDy4sP/IMG-4359.jpg)
I had them made to help with the machining since they are such oddball combinations of shapes to whittle out of blocks of steel and brass - have never made a one-piece crankshaft before and want to try it on this one, and the center section webs are not the normal back-to-center-shaft style, but they connect the two crank pins directly. Plus, the main block has so many undercuts and holes, and the cylinder block has 4 ports per cylinder vs normal 3, plus the extra passages for the center throttle/reverse valve, so I wanted something to hold onto and keep my references straight.

(https://i.postimg.cc/zvDWY6Xt/IMG-4360.jpg)
The steam chest/lid is normal rectangle, did not have that printed, likewise with the end caps.
Here is what the slew engine will look like - really packed into place, they must have had a lot of fun doing maintenance on these engines, the way its packed in like a V8 in a Miata:
(https://i.postimg.cc/6qHZWc89/IMG-4355.jpg)
And the crowd engine position up on the main boom - these two engines are identical aside from the ends of the crankshaft and output gears:
(https://i.postimg.cc/KcQBDGJd/IMG-4356.jpg)
Very happy with the printed parts, they should help a lot when machining the metal ones. For size reference, the overall engine is approximately 4" long and 2-1/4" wide.

So, have to find out if 3D mockup-part-fondling works as well as casting-fondling!   ^-^

For now, back to the hoist valve body, probably will start on the other engines later this week...

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dreeves on January 28, 2019, 09:07:45 PM
Very nice Chris. I have 3D printed parts for reference before. It helped out when trying to figure holding ops.  The project looks great hope to see it in person at next years Cabin Fever.

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 28, 2019, 09:59:35 PM
Very nice Chris. I have 3D printed parts for reference before. It helped out when trying to figure holding ops.  The project looks great hope to see it in person at next years Cabin Fever.

Dave
Thanks Dave, I have already been holding it up to the bar stock and on the lathe to see what fits in what direction - looks like I could bore the cylinders on the Sherline lathe with no problem, assuming I come up with a good way to hold it at the ends (milling in end blocks on the blank should work). It will be very handy to figure out the order of operations too.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 28, 2019, 10:06:42 PM
Back on the hoist throttle valve body - have the blank for the body turned, the side/bottom flanges for the pipework turned/drilled, and the body cross drilled for the side flanges, ready for silver soldering the flanges in. I drilled/tapped all the flanges and bottom mount while the parts are separate. I did have to make the body piece twice - I had not noticed that the rim on the bottom of the body was too thin to drill/tap for screws, even a 0-80, so I thickened up the body on the plans and re-turned that one. Another part for the scrap/ballast bin! Note that on the flanges that will go on the outlet pipes, I turned in recesses to hold some o-rings to seal the flange - the recesses are slightly shallower than the rings, so they will compress as the bolts are run in.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8cTVT836/IMG-4363.jpg)

Then got the side flanges silver soldered on:
(https://i.postimg.cc/fy5QL2ng/IMG-4364.jpg)

and cleaned up:
(https://i.postimg.cc/zDkr0BbS/IMG-4365.jpg)

The top end of the body is still long, it will be trimmed off at the line just above where it increases in diameter. Leaving it long for now gives me a place to hold it in the chuck easily. The trimmed off portion is also big enough to give me the top cap piece later on, and the mount holes are already drilled through. Next step will be to put it on the lathe and bore out the center of the body for the plunger and port sleeve pieces. That bore goes up to just below the top flange, where it will have a small hole for the valve rod to go through.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on January 28, 2019, 11:16:44 PM
Throttle assembly looks great Chris. Like the progressive opening teardrop detail on the sleeve.

I think getting 3D prints of the engine's key parts was a great idea, particularly as space is tight for the engines to fit.

The jigs for milling the centre web of the crank will be doozies! Do you plan to cut all the journals first, with multiple centres on the crankshaft blank, then mill the web to shape using jigs with the journals as datums? If you made very light cuts on the webs, it may be possible to hold the crank journals in a 3D printed two piece jaw type jig or jigs. The 3D prints of the parts just got my brain cells woken up (all 4 of them).  :thinking:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 28, 2019, 11:26:22 PM
Throttle assembly looks great Chris. Like the progressive opening teardrop detail on the sleeve.

I think getting 3D prints of the engine's key parts was a great idea, particularly as space is tight for the engines to fit.

The jigs for milling the centre web of the crank will be doozies! Do you plan to cut all the journals first, with multiple centres on the crankshaft blank, then mill the web to shape using jigs with the journals as datums? If you made very light cuts on the webs, it may be possible to hold the crank journals in a 3D printed two piece jaw type jig or jigs. The 3D prints of the parts just got my brain cells woken up (all 4 of them).  :thinking:
Been sitting here twirling the crankshaft piece, starting to get an idea of order, will be thinking on it and making notes, probably will make up a sequence in Fusion to test the order, did that on some of the track parts and it helped a lot without swarfing myself into a corner. Given the small size of the eccentrics they will most likely be machined in as well. The oddball section is the connector between the journals, but having this test piece makes it easy to see how to hold and mill in that section, this is going to be mostly done on the lathe but partly milled, nothing new for those who have done them but fun for me to puzzle out!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on January 28, 2019, 11:27:18 PM
Hello Chris,

Boy that is some more beautiful work. Also like the Shapeways parts.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on January 29, 2019, 12:13:01 AM

(https://i.postimg.cc/rpfvWnGT/IMG-4344.jpg)

Good god!!! And ther're all hand made!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 29, 2019, 12:43:45 AM

(https://i.postimg.cc/rpfvWnGT/IMG-4344.jpg)

Good god!!! And ther're all hand made!


 8)


Actually didn't take all that long, maybe an hour per dozen total for all the operations. Since all the blanks were the same size I could pop them in and out of the 4 jaw without having to recenter on each.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 29, 2019, 07:26:16 PM
More done on the throttle valve, chucked up the body and drilled/bored the inside to fit the port sleeve - used a small bit from the mill boring head to get a small enough diameter, the regular lathe bars are too large.
(https://i.postimg.cc/P5dqBk61/IMG-4367.jpg)
While boring the sleeve hole, also took the center section out a little wider to form an inner ring to connect the ports. This is how the patent drawings show it, so that all the ports are in play, not just the ones over the outlet holes.
(https://i.postimg.cc/P5KqHFc9/IMG-4369.jpg)
The valve body was parted off from the chucking base, then the top lid was turned in what remained of that base - already the right outer diameter and the bolt holes are already in it. Just needed to bore out a recess for the o ring, and turn in the step down to the outer flange, and part it off. A square post was screwed to the flange, and silver soldered in place. While at that soldering, also started soldering the flanges and elbows on the piping to the valve:
(https://i.postimg.cc/RV7Fs0TM/IMG-4371.jpg)
Once cleaned up, the screw head holding the square post will be filed off flush, then I can cut the piping to length and add the elbows at the ends to take them down to the cylinders.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on January 29, 2019, 07:41:41 PM
Hi Chris, you've been busy, as usual! parts look great. :ThumbsUp:  :popcorn:

What do you do to keep your shop elves from pleasure boating on your silver solder cleanup pickle bath?  :shrug:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 29, 2019, 07:55:10 PM
Hi Chris, you've been busy, as usual! parts look great. :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:

What do you do to keep your shop elves from pleasure boating on your silver solder cleanup pickle bath?  :shrug:
I just leave a picture out of whats left of the first elf that tried that - looks like a character in Pirates Of The carribean when the moon is out!   :o
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 29, 2019, 09:53:22 PM
While waiting for valve parts to cool/pickle, been playing in Fusion to see if I can diagram out the turning/milling sequences. So far, figured out the holes in the ends of the bar for the centers on each step, and got a animation of each section being turned in - will need to add temp supports between the webs along the way, but this is working out okay for visualizing the steps. The order may well change, this is a first attempt...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lELq1GzW7UA

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Johnmcc69 on January 30, 2019, 12:43:01 AM
Very cool Chris!
 :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:

 John
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 30, 2019, 06:26:10 PM
Getting closer on the hoist throttle valve - more piping made, top cap is done, still need to make the control crank for the top of the cap which moves the valve rod up and down.
(https://i.postimg.cc/B6kkgLsC/IMG-4374.jpg)
I hooked it up to the compressor, not really happy with the amount of air blowing by the plunger when closed, may need to remake the plunger to be a closer fit, I've always had trouble with spool style valves being leaky.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on January 30, 2019, 09:09:44 PM
Hi Chris,  Just a thought / something to try - if you remake the plunger you could lap the sleeve and then make the plunger a lapped fit in it, with really fine lapping compound, for closest possible fits (like bore and piston in an IC engine).

Or maybe try some PTFE rings/discs/cups on the plunger? They may extrude out into the sleeve slots over time though if fitted too tight - seen them do that on piston valves.

Just food for thought...hope the ideas are of use.

I liked your slew engine crankshaft machining steps plan video. I see you have met Ann E. May-Shunn as well.  :naughty:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 30, 2019, 10:00:13 PM
Chris--I did a bunch of animations about 12 or 15 years ago for a company that wanted to show how their product worked. The product was something used on railway train engines. I had to start out with a long shot of the train, then zoom in to their product which was something mounted externally on the engine, then isolate their product, then "explode" it and reassemble it, then pan back out to the train disappearing up the tracks. It was one of the most difficult things I have ever done. This past year one of my customers who builds aluminum boat dock systems wanted me to do essentially the same animation of a dock, assembling itself from all the pieces provided, and it would be written to a disc and given to customers to help assemble their new boat docks. I said NO. Now that I don't buy new software every year, I don't have free access to the tech help people at Solidworks, and I was afraid my head would explode.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: MJM460 on January 30, 2019, 10:03:52 PM
Hi Chris, if I remember your design well enough, there are two possible leakage paths, one between the piston and the sleeve, and the other between the outside of the sleeve and the body.  Pretty hard to diagnose which, and also quite hard to lap both adequately.  However, outside the sleeve would be relatively easy to seal with an o-ring or other packing, as it can be tight with no issue of friction as the sleeve is not supposed to move.  Might be better alternative than a seal on the piston and the issues of damaging the seal in the slots as cnr points out.  Then only lap the piston to the inside of the sleeve, and with luck any remaining leakage might be acceptable, especially if there is a stop valve somewhere to properly shut off the steam when the hoist is not in use.

I am continually in awe of your project, both it’s complexity and the speed and efficiency with which you proceed.  Just amazing.

MJM460
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 30, 2019, 11:47:21 PM
Hi guys, great tips. I did get the plunger remade this afternoon, the first one had some detectable play in it where the new one is a pretty close fit. It now leaks a whole lot less, but still does. As you pointed out, it might be leaking behind the sleeve and down to the ports - the bottom edge where it gets capped is very tight, but the inner edge where it butts up to the top could be leaking. Tomorrow I'll pull the valve back off and run a test - if I put a screw in to plug the hole through the plunger that balances the pressure to either end, that may tell me where its leaking. If that cures it, then the problem is at the top end of the sleeve. If it does not fix it, and the volume of leak is the same, then it would be blowing past the plunger. If it reduces it but not eliminate it, then it is both places.  I have thought of an o-ring, but as you mention it may get cut up going past the ports. I'll see what the experiment shows and then figure out a path forward.
In the meantime, here is what it all looks like put together:
(https://i.postimg.cc/2yCnLYX7/IMG-4385.jpg)
I tested it, even with the leak, and while it does function as a throttle, the leak is enough that the engine would keep ticking over. Right now, it looks like the timing is off on one side and it does not like to self start well, there is one spot where the valve on one side is not closing early enough and stopping it from gliding past BDC on the piston. So, I gave it a little throttle and a flip to start it, and took this video. I have not made the control crank yet, so am using a pair of pliers to move the throttle valve rod (can see it in the upper right). In the video I was moving the throttle up and down, and you can hear the engine rev and slow down with it. So, partway there!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Icrf9__xboo
As you mentioned, a separate stop valve to shut off the steam completely would work, and there is a globe valve just upstream (up-pipe?) of the throttle on the real machine so it would not look too out of place. I would like to get a better action than this though - worth some more tinkering with the valve, there is always the fallback of a needle valve like is on my Shay, which slides in and out of a seat, or even a threaded one that rotates to screw in/out of the seat like the Lombard has, with a coarse thread a 90 degree turn gives a good action. Either could be made to look the same as the current valve on the outside.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 30, 2019, 11:50:15 PM
Oh, and you may wonder about the top piping - at the back (left in the photo) it will lead to the boiler steam dome. On the front (right) it is currently capped, that will lead up to the A-frame where it will have a swivel joint to take the steam out to the crowd engine on the main boom. Those connections are just soft soldered, so I can swap out the end fittings later on, for now one is a cap and the other is a barbed fitting for the air hose.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on January 31, 2019, 02:59:38 AM
Yes, amazing progress Chris........I am an absolute novice when it comes to the actual manufacture....however as you well know.....you will get a totally differing functionality when running on steam with a healthy mist of ISO 360 steam oil [sorry ISO 460]

All of the engines mid trunk & bottom ends will also gain with a lashing of heavy oil in the works...to smooth out motion and subdue the crashing sounds to softer clunks.........

Having said this, I appreciate the Shovel operated in a heavily contaminated dusty environment  :killcomputer: which was not necessarily suited to greasy oily unions or joints

Have gone back to Reply#3021.......and it is certainly a unique design with the steam entering from underneath & rising to the control valve & the [equally balanced] pressure supply to the two cylinder valve sets

The point here is, when the bucket hoisting function is stopped, this appears to be a trap for condensation & so on commencement of hoisting, both cylinders would get a gut full of water! 

Derek   
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 31, 2019, 02:46:01 PM
Hi Derek,


I am sure you are right about the condensation, they did have drains on all the cylinders, those long pipes must have taken a while to heat up. Worst would have been the crowd engine, about 50 feet from the boiler and at a 45 degree angle with the cylinders at the bottom. There is no remnant of any insulation on the pipes now but there must have been some.


On the valve, in the patent they drew it on its side in the machine but in production they have it vertical.


Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 31, 2019, 05:44:27 PM
MJM, you were right about the leakage at the top of the sleeve insert, this morning I plugged the hole in the plunger and put a spacer in so it could not be pushed back, and most of the leakage went away. Its a tough spot to get at, but I was able to run in some sealant back there and reassembled.

Testing off the model to reduce the number of screws to run in and out and drop a couple and in....
The newer plunger I made yesterday is working much better, very little leakage now. I ran in a little grease on it, like what Derek mentioned the steam oil will do, and that helped even more. With that sealing better I found a couple of pinholes at the solder joints on the pipe flanges, those are leaking more than the valve now. So, take it apart again and flow in some soft solder on THOSE, and it should be good enough to go. There will still be a tiny amount of blow by on the valve, but its very workable now.
Thanks all for your tips!!
 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: MJM460 on January 31, 2019, 09:01:38 PM
Great news, Chris, and thank you.  I am happy to have been able to contribute in even a minor way, but I am sure you would have found it anyway.  But good if those of us enjoying following your build can contribute an idea here or there and save you a little time.

With the crowd engine, there will be plenty of condensate while things warm up.  But some insulation will minimise it once the engine is being used , which I assume is reasonably continuous when digging.  In a refinery, where steam pipes often run hundreds of meters to quite small users, we create a deliberate low point in the piping and fit a drain valve or steam trap to collect and discharge the condensate just before the user inlet.  Think at the bottom of the boom, just the boiler side of the swivel, where the operator might even be able to open a drain valve with an extended handle, or a quick opening one, like a steam whistle valve to discharge some condensate.

MJM460

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 31, 2019, 09:14:49 PM
Great news, Chris, and thank you.  I am happy to have been able to contribute in even a minor way, but I am sure you would have found it anyway.  But good if those of us enjoying following your build can contribute an idea here or there and save you a little time.

With the crowd engine, there will be plenty of condensate while things warm up.  But some insulation will minimise it once the engine is being used , which I assume is reasonably continuous when digging.  In a refinery, where steam pipes often run hundreds of meters to quite small users, we create a deliberate low point in the piping and fit a drain valve or steam trap to collect and discharge the condensate just before the user inlet.  Think at the bottom of the boom, just the boiler side of the swivel, where the operator might even be able to open a drain valve with an extended handle, or a quick opening one, like a steam whistle valve to discharge some condensate.

MJM460
Hi MJM,
I assume the original machine came with insulation on that piping, right now it is just bare metal - they probably stripped off the asbestos at some point. The winters up here are plenty cold, and I can't see them letting the steam pipes be radiators for the cab (no matter how much the crew would have liked that in winter).


I have seen those dips in the pipes in chemical plants (Kodak Park was loaded with them) - always though they were just there for expansion/contraction from temperature changes, a place to flex, though it makes sense that it could be both. Or do they have some sort of slip joint for expansion purposes?


While testing the new valve setup, I took a look at the valve timing, which looked right, till I noticed that the up/down throw on the reverse link (as in from the forward to reverse setting) was not quite enough, and that is contributing to the starting issue (since these are straight links rather than arced like normal, it is sensitive to position more). So, while I am at a stage of taking things apart I decided to go ahead and pull the control cranks out from under the floor and move the hole on the outer control crank, to give the linkage a little more throw. The lever at the control deck is already maxed out, so this is the next place to adjust it. It was the right distance in the 3D model, but the little bit of slop in the clevises from linkage to linkage added up and took out some movement - something I am not used to adding extra in for when designing yet. So just need to drill one more hole in the control crank and reassemble things. Should be ready to test again in a while....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: MJM460 on January 31, 2019, 10:25:02 PM
Hi Chris, I think you would be right on all counts on that insulation.  We really do have to learn to consider more than just insulating value and cost when choosing materials, just like some of those recent buildings.  And I am sure the operators would have ensured that the insulation was accidentally damaged in some appropriate places in winter.  (Scope for some wear and tear detailing on the model?)

In the oil industry, expansion loops for thermal expansion are generally horizontal apart from the obligatory change of height with direction, but generally low points are minimised as they always collect condensate, water from hydro testing etc.  Expansion joints are the invention of the devil and best avoided.  They need very careful design and installation especially in high pressure, large diameter service.  I have seen some very expensive failures with even well designed systems.  However, sometimes they are unavoidable, and just have to have a properly engineered installation arrangement.

Good pickup on that lever linkage.  Will save a heap of time finding it now instead of later.

MJM460

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Roger B on February 01, 2019, 07:05:34 AM
Still following along and enjoying  :)  :) There is always so much progress  :praise2:  :praise2:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 01, 2019, 08:20:04 PM
Well, the "ready in a while" turned into a day or so....  :embarassed:




This afternoon I got the new hole drilled in the crank and updated the drawing to reflect that. Now the full throw on the handle is enough to make it full throw at the Stephenson linkage, and its back to self starting again, before it was darn near but not quite there. Gave it a quick air test, and the small leakage at the throttle is now low enough to just make the piston move a tad if in the middle of both throws but thats all.




Now I will make the control crank for the top of the valve, then can test for real (now needs pliers to lift the valve rod, not very precise).  Well, not NOW, maybe later or tomorrow!




 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 02, 2019, 08:50:34 PM
This afternoon got a little shop time in, and nibbled out the control crank for the top of the hoist throttle valve.

Okay, okay, it was really Marvin the Metalworker Elf chewing it out with his new carbide tipped dentures...
(https://i.postimg.cc/J0M89HX3/IMG-4386.jpg)
The hole at the top will take the end fitting on the control rod from the front of the machine, the slot at the bottom will take the cross pin from the top of the valve rod. Those two parts are next....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: fumopuc on February 03, 2019, 07:29:33 AM
Is there any chance to clone your elves at this Chinese laboratory ?
I would be happy to order minimum half a dozen, short term.


Good progress, Chris.



Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 03, 2019, 01:55:07 PM
Is there any chance to clone your elves at this Chinese laboratory ?
I would be happy to order minimum half a dozen, short term.


Good progress, Chris.
From the look they gave me after reading your post, I don't think so!   :Lol: 


Besides, free range, cookie fed shop elves are much more productive than the Westworld type manufactured ones!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on February 03, 2019, 03:06:21 PM
I wonder if the far eastern elf labs have made any Westworld Yul Brynner style shop elves with cowboy hats and bad smoking habits? Hope not, it's hard enough to get the work done without gunfights and the air full of elf smoke... You haven't found out if they did or not, the hard way, have you Chris? :shrug:

I found a pic of Yul in Westworld on IMDb, it is attached. Just think how much better he would look with a drill chuck or combination wrench in place of the six shooter..... OK I'm going back to the workshop now..... :paranoia:

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 03, 2019, 04:03:12 PM
I wonder if the far eastern elf labs have made any Westworld Yul Brynner style shop elves with cowboy hats and bad smoking habits? Hope not, it's hard enough to get the work done without gunfights and the air full of elf smoke... You haven't found out if they did or not, the hard way, have you Chris? :shrug:

I found a pic of Yul in Westworld on IMDb, it is attached. Just think how much better he would look with a drill chuck or combination wrench in place of the six shooter..... OK I'm going back to the workshop now..... :paranoia:
:ROFL: :ROFL:
Thats why I keep up with my rifle/pistol/archery leagues and competitions, so I can keep up with the elves!


Oh, and while looking for that picture, found this funny blog entry:
   http://www.av8rdan.com/2018/12/airplanista-goes-undercover-once-again.html
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 03, 2019, 04:10:05 PM
While dodging attack elves looking for their breakfast bacon, I was able to get the last two fittings for the control crank on the hoist valve made and installed.
 :wallbang:

Oh well, two steps forward, one back....  The geometry did not work out, and I need to remake the crank itself. The angle of the slot is too steep, so at the top of the throw it starts pushing the valve rod to the side rather than down, jamming it. A few experiments with pivot points, and I found if I lower the pivot at the inside corner of the crank about 1/8" it works fine. But, that is outside the edge of the metal, so I need to make a new one. Once it is made I'll show a pic of them side by side to show what I mean.

Back to the mill!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 03, 2019, 04:30:56 PM
And when I went back to update the 3D model and plans for this change, I found that they were correct, I had just laid out the angle of the crank 6 degrees too steep when drilling the holes.

 :facepalm2:
I need a cookie...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 03, 2019, 04:33:09 PM
There is only one thing worse than making a part wrong.--That is when you made the drawing right and then read it incorrectly!!!--Happens at my house too.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 03, 2019, 09:21:58 PM
Well, this morning I figured that by now I'd have the crank part remade, but the weatherman swarfed it up (as usual around here, too many giant lakes/hills for them to forecast yesterday correctly), and the temperature was up in the mid 50s, which wasn't supposed to get here till tomorrow. And knowing that means tomorrow may be back in the teens, I took the chance to work on the snowblower.

Back at the beginning of winter, it got a major overhaul (overdue after 35 years of use), lots of carb/hose/etc work, plus the scraper/wheels/etc needed work too. One thing that they spent extra time on was redoing the big bearing on the main auger drive shaft, which had worn completely out. Since that manufacturer was no longer around, having been bought out by others a couple times over the decades, spares for this model are naturally rare as unicorn spit. So, the repair shop took the closest bearing block they could find and said they were able to modify it to fit.

 :facepalm2:

If by fit, you mean it goes over the shaft? Yup! Nice free fit. With about 3/32" extra slop, that they apparently put some wedges in....    :facepalm:

 :rant:

Needless to say, after 30 minutes of use in the last storms, it was making nasty noises as the high speed upper auger/flinger was bouncing off the side housing!   WAY too cold (was -6F here then) to work on it at the time, so it had to wait.

Given the warm weather, good chance to take it all apart, an hour to drive out the shaft from the pulley to get at the bearing, another hour to turn a two-piece bronze shell to go over the worn shaft and fit to the inside of the ball bearing race they put in, then half an hour to drive up to Tractor Supply and get a replacement for the 'new' belt they put on, which was apparently hanging out in the shop so long the rubber hardened up and it had a crack halfway through it, more time to install that and put it all back together.... Clean up everything... Put all the tools away....


Happily, it now works nice and smooth, no unreasonable play, no bouncing the auger off the housing...

 :whoohoo:

But, that ate up the motivation for any shop time today, going to go put on a movie and veg for a while!!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on February 04, 2019, 04:30:12 AM
I wonder if the far eastern elf labs have made any Westworld Yul Brynner style shop elves with cowboy hats and bad smoking habits? Hope not, it's hard enough to get the work done without gunfights and the air full of elf smoke... You haven't found out if they did or not, the hard way, have you Chris? :shrug:

I found a pic of Yul in Westworld on IMDb, it is attached. Just think how much better he would look with a drill chuck or combination wrench in place of the six shooter..... OK I'm going back to the workshop now..... :paranoia:
:ROFL: :ROFL:
Thats why I keep up with my rifle/pistol/archery leagues and competitions, so I can keep up with the elves!


Oh, and while looking for that picture, found this funny blog entry:
   http://www.av8rdan.com/2018/12/airplanista-goes-undercover-once-again.html

That is the infima's AK Candy Cane, put on the Banned List by that Dental Elf at the North Pole.
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on February 04, 2019, 01:03:53 PM
It is amazing what passes for professional small engine repairs local to me as well. I've fixed (or un-fixed) a lot of seriously botched bearing / shaft / lever repairs on blowers and mowers over the years for relatives and friends. The most difficult to understand for me are botched simple carb or ignition tune-ups. Usually with carbs it's a simple dismantle / clean / replace parts procedure, and yet I've seen major "improvisational" drilling out of jets, JB welded fuel inlets, floats soldered with 1/4 lb of solder, etc. none of which is even similar to how it came out of the factory and worked for 20-30 years! On ignitions I've seen high tension wire replaced with lamp cord wrapped in electrical tape, every kind of end connector you can imagine, at the plug end, points levers backwards or missing, point gaps from 0 to .100", Dremeled coil housings, all manner of silliness.  :ShakeHead: Again with ignitions generally it's just a matter of putting things back the way they were when they left the factory, and even for old machines there are usually parts available for mass produced blowers and mowers.

As to impeller shaft bearings - the best /worst bodge I've seen is a similar case to the one you mention but the "mechanic" took up the clearance with masking tape rather than wedges! Heck of a mess as it heated up and squeezed out and got stuck everywhere...

Glad you got yours running. My 1975 built Gilson blower, branded for Eatons' dept store here, is still running good after many repairs / major parts replacements over the years. It too has a lot of unavailable bearings and turned parts.  Made lots of bits for it. Last major one was complete new rear axle, hubs, and sprockets, after the axle wore completely through the bushings and into the housing sheetmetal ! Never noticed, only oiled it and ran it, until the drive chain jumped over itself and jammed. Worked fine up to that point, believe it or not. I fitted flangette style ball bearings to each side, should last about 100 years now, real luxury!..... :naughty:

Hope you are able to get back on the throttle valve today in your shop and out of bodged small engine country!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 04, 2019, 01:34:51 PM
It is amazing what passes for professional small engine repairs local to me as well. I've fixed (or un-fixed) a lot of seriously botched bearing / shaft / lever repairs on blowers and mowers over the years for relatives and friends. The most difficult to understand for me are botched simple carb or ignition tune-ups. Usually with carbs it's a simple dismantle / clean / replace parts procedure, and yet I've seen major "improvisational" drilling out of jets, JB welded fuel inlets, floats soldered with 1/4 lb of solder, etc. none of which is even similar to how it came out of the factory and worked for 20-30 years! On ignitions I've seen high tension wire replaced with lamp cord wrapped in electrical tape, every kind of end connector you can imagine, at the plug end, points levers backwards or missing, point gaps from 0 to .100", Dremeled coil housings, all manner of silliness.  :ShakeHead: Again with ignitions generally it's just a matter of putting things back the way they were when they left the factory, and even for old machines there are usually parts available for mass produced blowers and mowers.

As to impeller shaft bearings - the best /worst bodge I've seen is a similar case to the one you mention but the "mechanic" took up the clearance with masking tape rather than wedges! Heck of a mess as it heated up and squeezed out and got stuck everywhere...

Glad you got yours running. My 1975 built Gilson blower, branded for Eatons' dept store here, is still running good after many repairs / major parts replacements over the years. It too has a lot of unavailable bearings and turned parts.  Made lots of bits for it. Last major one was complete new rear axle, hubs, and sprockets, after the axle wore completely through the bushings and into the housing sheetmetal ! Never noticed, only oiled it and ran it, until the drive chain jumped over itself and jammed. Worked fine up to that point, believe it or not. I fitted flangette style ball bearings to each side, should last about 100 years now, real luxury!..... :naughty:

Hope you are able to get back on the throttle valve today in your shop and out of bodged small engine country!


At least these guys did a great job on the engine/carb/fuel parts, just did a half-a**ed jed job (maybe 3/4) on the bearing. Glad I had the ability and tools to refix it. 


The masking tape takes the cake thougthough!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 04, 2019, 02:44:27 PM
Well......... look at the bright side Chris. Because you've spent all that effort fixing your snowblower, you probably won't need it again this winter.  :ROFL: Time well spent I'd say!

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 04, 2019, 02:53:50 PM
Well......... look at the bright side Chris. Because you've spent all that effort fixing your snowblower, you probably won't need it again this winter.  :ROFL: Time well spent I'd say!

Jim
Thats what I am hoping! Today is actually getting up to 60 degrees! 

 :)
Back to winter in a couple days though....

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 04, 2019, 02:56:05 PM
This morning I got the new crank arm made, this time looks to be working nice and smooth through the whole range.   :)   Here it is installed, holding up the first one - very slight difference in where one hole is placed - lower left one is down lower.

(https://i.postimg.cc/1tj0VM7z/IMG-4387.jpg)
And at full open position:
(https://i.postimg.cc/j2nHHNB4/IMG-4388.jpg)
I have some errands to run, should be posting a short video of the throttle in action this afternoon.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 04, 2019, 07:59:29 PM
All right - now we are cooking with gas! Um, Coal? Well okay, right now compressor!

Anyway, the new throttle valve crank is all installed, and could not wait to fire it up. Here is the valve being tested:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAtgklzAU-c

That worked fine, so I put the crankshaft pinion gear back in line so I could test everything. All went well, though as you can tell I ran out of hands to run the hoist throttle, hoist clutch, hoist brake, and the camera (those elves were just up on the shelve laughing at me). It will be easier later on when the throttle is hooked up to its control lever, but that will hang from the cab roof which is not made yet, and I am out of anti-grave bolts!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OV6QzQpQ83Q

 8)

Time to go share some cookies with the elves out on the porch (it is over 60 this afternoon, much better than the -6 the other day). I think the next thing up on the lathe is the crankshafts for the slew/crowd engines!! They are going to be a challenge, have not made 1-piece cranks before, but all the reading and watching you guys do it should help a lot. They will be out of 1144 stressproof steel, also a new material for me.


Thanks everyone for watching along, and helping me out so much!

 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: MJM460 on February 04, 2019, 09:13:08 PM
That’s brilliant, Chris.  Another amazing and very satisfying milestone.

Perhaps a tripod for the camera?  One of those little gorilla grip thingies that you could attach to something convenient in the shop?

MJM460

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 04, 2019, 09:14:52 PM
That’s brilliant, Chris.  Another amazing and very satisfying milestone.

Perhaps a tripod for the camera?  One of those little gorilla grip thingies that you could attach to something convenient in the shop?

MJM460
Yeah, I would have had to go a long way to get the tripod.....  Yup, it was right next to my chair!    :facepalm:

Oh well, next time!  .....   maybe....   :insane:

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on February 04, 2019, 09:15:04 PM
I love it!! :Love:

 :popcorn: :popcorn:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on February 04, 2019, 09:32:38 PM
That, as always, is just downright cool, Chris!  Love watching it all come together.  And the throttle valve seemed to preform quite well!

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on February 04, 2019, 09:51:38 PM
Very nice action on the throttle now Chris! Love to see that hoist in motion and the dipper operating. Well done! Thanks for posting the videos and pics - always enjoyable. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on February 04, 2019, 10:04:16 PM
Damn Dog that is just to cool man! Bet those elf’s are happier then being in a bag of cookies watching the action all unfold. ....... :ThumbsUp:


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on February 04, 2019, 10:56:24 PM
Hello Chris,

Way too cool :cheers:

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 05, 2019, 12:03:08 AM
Thanks Guys!! The elves are grinning, I'm grinning, Cookies are being turned into crumbs....!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 05, 2019, 12:18:31 AM
With the slew/crowd engines up next, time for some planning and fixturing for the crankshafts. The slew/crowd engines are identical except for the output gears and length of the output shafts, so will be making both at once. Also, this is a good time to make a standalone display engine since it is such a unique design, so I am actually going to be making 3 of them at once! Later on will make the fourth one, for the steering gear on the rear tracks, but that one is 30% smaller than these so it will be made seperately.


To start with, since I know a lot of you like seeing the rough castings for an engine, here are the crankshaft castings for the 3 engines (all 1144 stressproof steel).
(https://i.postimg.cc/QMWYrh1f/IMG-4400.jpg)
Yup - very rough castings! They are remarkably like pieces of bar stock....   :Lol:    Laying on top is the white plastic 3D printed version of the finished crankshaft, should be handy for planning out cuts and keeping track of which direction things go - think I will paint one end to help keep it straight in my head (which is a twisty place indeed).

Note that one is shorter, that is for the slew engine, which only has an output gear on one end, so the other end section is shorter to just end outside the bearing. All three were cut from one 12" piece of 1144 bar. Fortunately, if I mess one or more up, McMaster delivers in one day here (their warehouse is only 60 or so miles from here).


I need to make a larger drive dog for the faceplate since the one that came with the Sherline doesn't quite go up to 3/4". Also need to sharpen up the parting tool, thats going to get some use on the crankshafts. To lay out and drill the holes in the ends for the lathe centers, I've come up with this setup. A 3/4" 5C collet in the square block, held by the mill vise clamped on its side on the mill table, and a coaxial center finder (got it a few weeks ago) to get things aligned. With the bar sticking out of both ends of the collet block, I can align/mark/drill one end, flip the block end for end, and do the same (with one axis mirrored) on the other end, and know that the holes are properly aligned with each other, no risk of having the rod turned slightly like if I was depending on scribed lines. I had to put the vise on its side, and use the lathe chuck to hold the coax indicatore to get enough height - now I understand why some of you had designed/built the shorter version of one! Gotta go back to that thread at some point...
(https://i.postimg.cc/1thCm2Ks/IMG-4401.jpg)
Enough playing for one day - back on it tomorrow!
 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on February 05, 2019, 02:03:21 AM
Well, I guess it's better to have your crankshafts hanging around in bars than your shop elves......... :facepalm: :naughty:

Looking forward to seeing them emerge from the bars. (the crankshafts that is. The elves, not so much....remembering the egg nog incidents during the holidays.) :Jester:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 05, 2019, 02:45:25 PM
Thanks Guys!! The elves are grinning, I'm grinning, Cookies are being turned into crumbs....!

Way cool Chris!  :ThumbsUp: It's great to see pieces moving. I do have to ask though: What's with Larry just sitting there in the cab like the proverbial "Elf on a log" and not doing anything to help out? Some kind of labor dispute?

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 05, 2019, 03:02:37 PM
Thanks Guys!! The elves are grinning, I'm grinning, Cookies are being turned into crumbs....!

Way cool Chris!  :ThumbsUp: It's great to see pieces moving. I do have to ask though: What's with Larry just sitting there in the cab like the proverbial "Elf on a log" and not doing anything to help out? Some kind of labor dispute?

Jim
Yeah, you know how it goes, 'thats not my job' and all that - he is trained as the second operator out on the turntable to control the crowd engine, and is swarfed off at me that I have not made that engine yet!  :Argue:

In the vitage videos I watched (from the HCEA Marion dvd) that secondary operator on the Model 91 would be standing just in front of where Larry is sitting, and would operate the control lever for the crowd engine, which will be on the upright holding that first large chain sheave. He also pulls the rope to open the bucket door.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 05, 2019, 03:15:27 PM
This morning I made up a drive dog to fit the shaft blanks (the stock Sherline one does not open quite far enough), and set up for drilling the holes in the ends of the shafts for turning the crank pins and eccentrics. The eccentric holes are pretty close together with the center hole, so they had to be fairly small. The outer holes for the crank pins were made larger, they will have more stress on them when doing the initial interrupted cuts. Here is the setup, vise clamped down on its side, and using the co-ax indicator to center the blank and zero the handwheels. The blank is projecting from the top and the bottom of the collet block, so I can work on both ends without removing it from the collet, so I can know that the patterns are square with each other.

(https://i.postimg.cc/vZ31FYjf/IMG-4404.jpg)
Then went in and drilled the pattern of holes on the first side, using three different size center drills:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Gpt4c0wN/IMG-4405.jpg)
Then turned the collet block over, keeping the back face of the block against the back of the vise in both positions, so just the left/right directions are mirrored. Drilled the mirrored pattern in that end as well - you can see the large hole on the left is now on the right on this end, so they are all lined up through the long axis of the bar.

(https://i.postimg.cc/KYWRj9mY/IMG-4408.jpg)
Here is the first bar test fit in the lathe, with the centers at either end in the corresponding holes for turning the first eccentric. The drive dog is just a cut off ring left over from the cylinder ends, bored out to fit these bars. A pair of bolts were drilled/tapped for in the edge, one to hold the stock, other to act as a drive against the bolt coming out of the faceplate. The bar has a shallow flat filed on it to let the bolt hold securely.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sXZ1hp24/IMG-4409.jpg)
I will get the other blanks drilled, then sharpen up the parting tool blade make some test cuts. Here is where the fun starts!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 05, 2019, 06:03:17 PM
After lunch I got a start on cutting the first crankshaft. Starting with a freshly sharpened parting tool blade, I put the centers into the number 1 holes (numbered the same end on all the blanks, and the plans, and on the 3D printed sample).

(https://i.postimg.cc/BbKVfJ04/IMG-4411.jpg)

I first made a shallow test cut at one end to figure out lathe speed and feed rate. Once that was set, moved over to the edge of the first eccentric and started a real cut.The 1144 cuts pretty nicely, little bit of chatter from the offset cut, but found that if I hold a position for a number of revolutions it smooths it right out. It does tend to throw some sharp little needles, so had to pull a couple of those from my hand, but it stayed cool and a decently smooth cut. Got the first eccentric down to OD with two side by side cuts, then made a deeper cut in the center to form a retaining groove for the eccentric follower. On the plans, I had drawn this as a raised center ridge, but my parting tool is too wide for that (a whopping .062 wide), so I changed to a center valley, which actually makes it easier to cut shoulders on the follower.
(https://i.postimg.cc/G38NyxsV/IMG-4412.jpg)

I then swapped the piece into holes number 2 (almost forgot that at the time! ) and carefully measured and moved over for the second eccentric cuts, which form a shape 90 degrees offset from the first one.
(https://i.postimg.cc/v8JKLxrB/IMG-4415.jpg)

So far so good on my first one-piece crankshaft. It is definitely confusing to go from the paper plans only to the actual part, so I am really glad that I had the 3D samples made, makes it much easier to keep track of things. Along the way I came up with the numbering of the holes, and added that to my plans as well for future reference (for making the steering engine, and in case I need to remake a botched crankshaft on this set).
I think I will bring the other two blanks up to this same point before continuing, since I know the depth of cut to go for and dial settings.
I do have to give some credit to one of my engineering crew, a little-seen but helpful shop elf named Albert Elfstein:

(https://i.postimg.cc/W3JnhSf7/Albert-Elfstein.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 05, 2019, 07:45:57 PM
Another session and the second crankshaft has its eccentrics cut. One more to go... Then I will need to make some spacers for the slots before cutting the crank pins themselves, since the pressure from the centers will be across the gaps.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 05, 2019, 08:42:43 PM
Eccentrics cut into all three crankshaft blanks:
(https://i.postimg.cc/hjHyShch/IMG-4416.jpg)
Now I need to cut and file up some spacers for the gaps to prevent them from getting compressed while turning in the crank pins. Saw another build recently where he superglued them in place (sorry, forget who it was! ) and heated/removed them later. Figure I'll give that method a try. I also have some of that heat-apply crystal adhesive stuff around here somewhere, unless the elves used it for something...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 05, 2019, 09:13:16 PM
Chris--That may have been my post you are talking about. I used a steel spacer held in place by glue from a glue gun.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 05, 2019, 09:46:14 PM
Chris--That may have been my post you are talking about. I used a steel spacer held in place by glue from a glue gun.---Brian
I remember that one, there was someone else who used superglue, said the pressure on the part would help hold it in as well. Just finished making the spacers and tried that, will see how it holds tomorrow. I would try the glue gun method, but don't have one.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 05, 2019, 11:07:03 PM
I would try the glue gun method, but don't have one.

 :o
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 05, 2019, 11:37:28 PM
I would try the glue gun method, but don't have one.

 :o
If I already had every tool out there, tool catalogs and stores would be no fun!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Roger B on February 06, 2019, 08:46:25 AM
Those crankshafts are certainly an interesting shape  ::) Following along with interest  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 06, 2019, 03:23:26 PM
Those crankshafts are certainly an interesting shape  ::) Following along with interest  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :wine1:
Yes, that bit going between the two pins is different than usual, just a direct connection rather than back down to a center rod with a bearing. Makes for a compact engine, with an interesting action.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 06, 2019, 03:28:17 PM
The glue holding the spacers was left to set overnight to cure up well, and this morning I cut the first journal pin on the crankshafts. All went well on this one, I did alternate cuts between both ends of the pin to give better chip clearance, not sure if that was neccessary or not, and had to run the blade out another 1/8" to get the full depth. That 1144 steel is working out great, cuts very nicely and seems to be staying quite straight - thanks to all for the suggestion!
 :cheers:
Here is the first journal cut in:
(https://i.postimg.cc/HLb5tprM/IMG-4429.jpg)
I cut another spacer for that gap, will let that set up before cutting the second one on this blank. In the meantime I can do the first cut on the other blanks.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 06, 2019, 07:28:07 PM
The first journal is cut in all three blanks, and spacers glued in. So far so good, as long as I give the blade a quick touch up on the fine grinding wheel after each journal. Starting in on the second journal on the first blank...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 06, 2019, 08:07:00 PM
Second journal cut on the first of the three crankshafts, getting to be almost like a crankshaft!
(https://i.postimg.cc/3rq6yTvh/IMG-4430.jpg)
One shaft down, two to go, then can start milling/turning down the rest of the sections...
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 07, 2019, 12:36:54 AM
Other two crankshafts now have second journals cut.   :cartwheel:


Now need to decide on order for last cuts. I am thinking of turning the end shafts, then moving to the mill to flatten the sides of the cranks and center section. That would keep most material down the center for turning the ends.


 :thinking:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on February 07, 2019, 03:01:28 AM
Look'in good Chris  :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on February 07, 2019, 08:27:33 AM
It's been a while since my last 'contribution' but this is still my first port of call every morning. Such amazing progress, and work that is so far outside my area of competence, I can only watch in awed silence  :praise2:

It is a great privilege to sit quietly in the corner of your workshop . . . munching cookies, obviously  :LickLips:  . . . and learn how it should be done  :cheers:

Mike.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 07, 2019, 02:01:22 PM
Thanks very much guys!


And Mike, you could at least pass a cookie up to the workbench!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 07, 2019, 09:08:16 PM
This afternoon saw some more time in the shop, and got one end of the crankshafts turned down to size, using the center hole in the pattern. Since those holes were drilled small at first, to allow the eccentric ones to be larger, I first went back and enlarged the center holes with the same setup as used the other day to drill the patterns. Turning the end shafts down to size went well, this 1144 took a little experimenting with speeds to get a nice smooth finish, but got there.
(https://i.postimg.cc/xCCRLLNT/IMG-4431.jpg)
All three shafts up to the same point - after the second end is turned to size I can trim them to final length, taking off the center-drilled section at the tips. The shorter one at the back is for the slew engine, that has a single gear close in at one end, the others are like the crowd engine, that has to reach out a bit at both ends to match up with the shipper shaft on the main boom. Those will be trimmed off just inside the larger bit at the ends.

(https://i.postimg.cc/vBNvhD57/IMG-4434.jpg)

Oh, and the superglue has worked fine for holding the spacers in, was able to pull the one on the eccentric slot on the right hand end with needle nose pliers, and the residue scraped off easily. None have let go during turning.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on February 07, 2019, 09:13:40 PM
Looking the part Dog and very intuit work.  It’s just more pork in the beans so to say....oh and did I say .........i............like.......... :Love:


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on February 07, 2019, 09:32:26 PM
Very nice Chris, great work!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :whoohoo:

How many times have you glued your fingers together or to the work? I usually average 3 gluings per session.....but that's just me, I call it "stupor glue" when I use it..... :facepalm:

(just in case, soak in warm water usually gets them loose. Soaking head in same water afterward is optional...... :ShakeHead:)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 07, 2019, 09:36:47 PM
Looking the part Dog and very intuit work.  It’s just more pork in the beans so to say....oh and did I say .........i............like.......... :Love:


 :cheers:
Don
Thanks Don!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 07, 2019, 09:38:32 PM
Very nice Chris, great work!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :whoohoo:

How many times have you glued your fingers together or to the work? I usually average 3 gluings per session.....but that's just me, I call it "stupor glue" when I use it..... :facepalm:

(just in case, soak in warm water usually gets them loose. Soaking head in same water afterward is optional...... :ShakeHead: )
Thats part of why I like the gel version of superglue, it doesnt run everywhere, usually at my hands. A bit of water or alcohol right away does help in case of spills. I've been lucky lately, not glued my head to the table or anything!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 08, 2019, 06:10:34 PM
This morning got the other ends of the crankshafts taken down to final size, using same basic setup but going back to the standard Sherline faceplate and drive dog, since that end of the shaft is now small enough to fit in it (it goes to about 5/8", the blank was 3/4").
(https://i.postimg.cc/yNRw5zkq/IMG-4435.jpg)
Here are the 3 shafts so far, about to start milling out the center section....
(https://i.postimg.cc/NMwWvPHK/IMG-4436.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on February 08, 2019, 07:19:09 PM
Reciprocating engine parts are not far off I think. Well done! Good luck with the rest of the milling. :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 08, 2019, 07:34:11 PM
Reciprocating engine parts are not far off I think. Well done! Good luck with the rest of the milling. :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Coming down to the wire on the crankshafts anyway! Thanks!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 08, 2019, 07:46:01 PM
With the journals and ends all done, time to work on the center section, where the two journal pins are directly connected with a diagonal bar rather than the typical webs back down to the center rod. This was the part I've been most nervous about, getting the shape but keeping it strong, but it worked out very well, no distortion from cutting off to one side. That 1144 stressproof steel is working out quite well, mills as well as it turns. I started out by clamping one of the webs in the collet again, and adjusting the rotation until the two journal pins were the same height from the side of the collet holder - puts the two pins at 45 degrees from the side of the holder. In this position, I can mill in from each of the 4 sides, and the diagonal bar will be in place. The spacer block farthest from the collet was removed, it is not needed any more. Started out with shallow cuts from the three sides closest to the pins, just flattening off the curve of the bar. Then put the pins at the bottom and started milling out the center section in a series of shallow passes. Here it is partway down.
(https://i.postimg.cc/T13P6cLX/IMG-4443.jpg)
Note that I am leaving some material at the one end, closest to the collet, where the spacer block is still in place, figure this will give that end extra rigidity during the milling. Once I got all the way down to the final thickness, with equal amounts of metal above and below the journals, I milled that last end back and sketched in the angle cuts.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Hnvks7X8/IMG-4445.jpg)
There is not room to get the end mill in for these angle cuts, so I just put the holder in the bench vise and hacksawed the angles close to the line, and finished up with a file. The horizontal corners next to the journals also were filed round.
(https://i.postimg.cc/59s0mDT9/IMG-4448.jpg)
Here it is so far - still think it looks a little thick, want to do some more filing on the diagonal to thin it a little more.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Kv4YpJhP/IMG-4449.jpg)
And I could not resist putting it in the 3D printed base and seeing how it looked on the main boom with the pinion gears slipped on the shaft:
(https://i.postimg.cc/RV8ZkKvj/IMG-4453.jpg)
So far so good! Need to do the same on the other two, then will mill the two webs down from the current discs to the final shape.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Admiral_dk on February 08, 2019, 08:27:39 PM
Very nice progress  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on February 08, 2019, 09:32:50 PM
Dog your like a hog with a trough full of slop, you just get after it. Damn Dog good progress...... :ThumbsUp:


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 08, 2019, 09:42:48 PM
Dog your like a hog with a trough full of slop, you just get after it. Damn Dog good progress...... :ThumbsUp:


 :cheers:
Don
I prefer a plate of Haddock vs slop, but that works too!!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on February 08, 2019, 11:24:54 PM
That is very nice, Chris!
The eccentrics being machined at the same time as the crankshaft, as one solid piece.  And that slopey/angley part of the crankshart.  Quite impressive!

So, was there a reason they did that slopey center section?  Or was it just for fun?

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 09, 2019, 12:40:18 AM
That is very nice, Chris!
The eccentrics being machined at the same time as the crankshaft, as one solid piece.  And that slopey/angley part of the crankshart.  Quite impressive!

So, was there a reason they did that slopey center section?  Or was it just for fun?

Kim
I don't know what the reason for the angly bit was, it did save wieght of two webs and bearing, but on a 105 ton machine who cares about a couple of pounds?! Maybe to make it narrower? It is squeezed into a small space between the hoist cylinders and on the main boom.

I don't know, anyone else know of engines like that?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on February 09, 2019, 12:50:20 AM
It may have been done that way to enable using a set of fixture jaws to hold the casting for machining. If held in the middle on a vertical turret lathe or big horizontal lathe all features at the ends would be open to the cutter tooling. Early in my working life I used to design work holding jaws for similar purposes to machine various valve castings of bronze and iron.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 09, 2019, 01:09:59 AM
It may have been done that way to enable using a set of fixture jaws to hold the casting for machining. If held in the middle on a vertical turret lathe or big horizontal lathe all features at the ends would be open to the cutter tooling. Early in my working life I used to design work holding jaws for similar purposes to machine various valve castings of bronze and iron.

A fixture that could do all of the offsets with one grab? That would be amazing.  I just looked back at thier patent on this engine, it barely mentions the crankshaft but does have that shape in the drawing. They made a lot of mention about the compactness, though a standard crank would just fit in the same space, though would need another bearing machined in.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Captain Jerry on February 09, 2019, 01:43:39 AM
I am more than a little late to this party and I have been trying hard to catch up.  I have more than a little affection for Big Iron, having spent a fair part of my life tromping around the strip mines of Pennsylvania selling the big dozers, loaders, and trucks that mostly replaced the big shovels and draglines,  There were still some big drags and shovels still working but it has been a long time since a new one was built.


Your usual attention to detail and the precision of execution is inspiring.  This crankshaft is an example that should help anyone who is reluctant to tackle a difficult job.  You break it down into small pieces and get on with doing it. Nice work. Great results. And best of all, you never seem to have to waste a day cleaning up.


Jerry
 
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 09, 2019, 01:56:18 AM
Thanks Jerry!  There are a number of quarries in this area, though all small by your standards I am sure. So far I have only gotten peeks in from the rim, hope to get a tour in one someday.




The approach of functional decomposition of complex systems goes to the core of my software background, don't think I even notice I am doing it.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 09, 2019, 02:29:43 AM
Was looking through my photo collections again, and wonder if these two show the reason for no center bearing?  Here is a shot of the crankshaft from above, you can imagine there being enough room to get a normal crank and a center bearing set in there:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Hk1kWMhR/IMG-1365.jpg)
But, looking from the back, the way they did it creates a totally open space when the crankshaft is removed, that would make it possible to work on the crosshead guides, room to both get at the bolts as well as hone them from the back if needed? The crosshead to conrod bolts are not really accessible from the sides, since the eccentric followers and their levers are on the outboard sides of each piston bay, transferring their motion up to the top of the engine via a pair of levers on the sides. Also, when the engines are in place the sides are hemmed in by the gear trains, hoist engines, crowd gears, lubricator pipes, etc.

(https://i.postimg.cc/c4nJNhXf/DSC-7379.jpg)
Here is a render that shows the sides better:
(https://i.postimg.cc/V6CQCB5Z/Slew_Engine.png)


These guys fit engines into spaces like modern econo-box cars do. I REALLY would love to get the time machine working again to go back and pick their brains!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Captain Jerry on February 09, 2019, 03:55:12 AM
Chris,


Those are really great photos, showing the operating conditions that this engine worked in. Dirt, rock, sand, and water when it rained. It is a wonder that they could complete a shift without major repairs.  Looking at the clear render (where did that come from) it would seem that major repairs were done by removing the cylinder/valve chest and pulling con rods and followers out the back. The assembly is fastened in place in the large single casting for guides and bearings.  Looking at the size of the two bearings, a third bearing in the center seems unnecessary.


Jerry
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 09, 2019, 01:00:45 PM
Chris,


Those are really great photos, showing the operating conditions that this engine worked in. Dirt, rock, sand, and water when it rained. It is a wonder that they could complete a shift without major repairs.  Looking at the clear render (where did that come from) it would seem that major repairs were done by removing the cylinder/valve chest and pulling con rods and followers out the back. The assembly is fastened in place in the large single casting for guides and bearings.  Looking at the size of the two bearings, a third bearing in the center seems unnecessary.


Jerry
The condition of the engine in the photos does include 69 years of sitting in the field, and having (according to the expert from Steam Town) having a racoon nest on top of it!   :o
The render at the bottom is from my 3D model in Fusion, I didn't know how to add the dirt and racoon exhaust back in....  O:-)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on February 09, 2019, 07:12:51 PM
Chris...from the old image, it's a fair guess that the lower crank journals & valve gear linkage shaft journals were grease nipple lubricated......this could be one design thought of an open casing......without the visual for lubrication..... :facepalm: ....it didn't happen

Will you be making provision for gallery for oil lubrication?, or just a little side splash & dash  :thinking:

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 09, 2019, 07:14:54 PM
Chris...from the old image, it's a fair guess that the lower crank journals & valve gear linkages were grease nipple lubricated......this could be one design thought of an open casing......without the visual for lubrication..... :facepalm: ....it didn't happen

Will you be making provision for gallery for oil lubrication?, or just a little side splash & dash  :thinking:

Derek
Wow, good eyes! At this size, it will be splash and dash - the conrods and eccentrics are only .125 thick.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 09, 2019, 07:17:01 PM
This afternoon I got the other two crankshaft centers cut down like the first:
(https://i.postimg.cc/CKwvz1yh/IMG-4454.jpg)
Next up will be to mill the remaining discs next to the journals down to their final web shape.

And to put a song in Zee's head (I know how much he likes that):
3 Shafts a Crank'in2 Eccentrics a Whirl'inAnd a Dipper Bucket In A Graveeelll Bank!
 :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on February 09, 2019, 07:27:01 PM
First time I noticed these....1941 date embedded into the castings ? ......or just co-incidence?   :shrug: ......

So after the Elves have been using the crankshafts for 10 Pin Bowling on night shift  :hammerbash: ....it would be interesting the set a Grade 1144 up between centers & clock up to see if there has been any off axis distortion..........

I am guessing if lightly held ....about .002" to .003" TIR on either [1/8" wide] journal?....and if you do find this, will you bend the shaft back out?

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 09, 2019, 08:05:01 PM
First time I noticed these....1941 date embedded into the castings ? ......or just co-incidence?   :shrug: ......

So after the Elves have been using the crankshafts for 10 Pin Bowling on night shift  :hammerbash: ....it would be interesting the set a Grade 1144 up between centers & clock up to see if there has been any off axis distortion..........

I am guessing if lightly held ....about .002" to .003" TIR on either [1/8" wide] journal?....and if you do find this, will you bend the shaft back out?

Derek
Lots of the cast parts have numbers in them, they are part numbers, not dates. Another example is the valve chest cover, has '3850' in it, and as I mentioned before, my time machine is not currently working....  ::)

I did check the parts during the milling/turning operations, and they appear to have held shape quite well - did not put them between centers with a indicator before the ends were cut off, but just chucking one end and spinning it there is no noticable wobble. Quite happy with this stuff - I would not be surprised to see some deflection in a long side cut, but nothing over the inch or so I did.

And WHERE did the elves get that bowling idea? Huh DEREK? Huh?   :Mad:
 :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 09, 2019, 08:18:59 PM
And to put a song in Zee's head (I know how much he likes that):
3 Shafts a Crank'in2 Eccentrics a Whirl'inAnd a Dipper Bucket In A Graveeelll Bank!

On the upside, to get that one in my head meant the one that was there got pushed out.
Thanks for that.  ;D

And  :cussing:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 09, 2019, 08:23:34 PM
And to put a song in Zee's head (I know how much he likes that):
3 Shafts a Crank'in2 Eccentrics a Whirl'inAnd a Dipper Bucket In A Graveeelll Bank!

On the upside, to get that one in my head meant the one that was there got pushed out.
Thanks for that.  ;D

And  :cussing:
:lolb: :lolb: :lolb:
I'll try and come up with a new one for you tomorrow... Or the next week...   :Jester:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on February 09, 2019, 08:37:22 PM
'And WHERE did the elves get that bowling idea? Huh DEREK? Huh?'   :Mad:

Rolling such machined components over a bumpy surface will mechanically :hammerbash: stress relieve them

Obviously the Elves have being  :happyreader: on such technical processes

Derek



Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 09, 2019, 08:46:35 PM
'And WHERE did the elves get that bowling idea? Huh DEREK? Huh?'   :Mad:

Rolling such machined components over a bumpy surface will mechanically :hammerbash: stress relieve them

Obviously the Elves have being  :happyreader: on such technical processes

Derek
A likely story....    :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on February 09, 2019, 09:40:37 PM
No, true

....... when I spoke with the Elves last week, they confirmed that they were reading the following mechanical stress relieving :hammerbash:  process

Obviously they modified the process to include bombarding & smashing the crankshafts with 1:20 scale [leather covered] cricket balls

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vibratory_stress_relief

 :jumpingsmileys:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Captain Jerry on February 09, 2019, 11:11:32 PM
i wouldn't worry too much about missed lube points. It is likely that the crew for a machine included a full time oiler.  At least a 3 man crew, operator, engineer and oiler.


Jerr
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 09, 2019, 11:19:31 PM
i wouldn't worry too much about missed lube points. It is likely that the crew for a machine included a full time oiler.  At least a 3 man crew, operator, engineer and oiler.


Jerr
From what I've read, the original machine usually had 8 crew, main operator, operator on turntable, boiler engineer, fireman, and rest general laborers to handle everything from oiling to water loading to clearing debris to setting outriggers and track. I don't know if that changed when they switched to the continuous tracks from the railroad wheels. The final setup had an automatic oil pump to the internal engines, don't know when that went in. It stayed in service for 43 years, they must have done maintenance right, it only got parked when diesel hydraulic machines became cheaper per ton loaded to operate.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on February 10, 2019, 12:11:46 AM
Great looking crankshaft work Chris!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp::popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Now that Derek has introduced the shop elves to the bowling idea, you should maybe start shopping for some good earplugs to use for sleeping - it's going to sound like a bowling alley in the shop all night now! If UPS shows up with a miniature pin setting machine, you could be in trouble..... I'd also beef up the locks on the spirit locker in case the elves get the idea of opening a cash bar in their alley....... :insane:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 10, 2019, 12:58:51 AM
Great looking crankshaft work Chris!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Now that Derek has introduced the shop elves to the bowling idea, you should maybe start shopping for some good earplugs to use for sleeping - it's going to sound like a bowling alley in the shop all night now! If UPS shows up with a miniature pin setting machine, you could be in trouble..... I'd also beef up the locks on the spirit locker in case the elves get the idea of opening a cash bar in their alley....... :insane:
Oh no.... I knew telling you guys about the elves was a baaaaddd idea! Now you have their little cell numbers, sending all SORTS of ideas to them.....   :facepalm2: :facepalm: :ShakeHead:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 10, 2019, 01:02:59 AM
This evening I got too impatient to wait till tomorrow to see how a finished crankshaft would look, so I set up the rotary table and chuck and started milling down the webs on the first one. I am just milling on the one closest to the chuck since I don't know if there is enough flex to make it chatter on the other end. The rotary table made it easy to line up the angles, first on one side:
(https://i.postimg.cc/XJPrCg8k/IMG-4456.jpg)
then on the others:
(https://i.postimg.cc/7hTfMTt8/IMG-4458.jpg)
The corners were also knocked off with the mill, then flipped the part around to the other end and repeated the steps, and used a file to take off the burs and smooth the corners more.
(https://i.postimg.cc/NLqLNfZy/IMG-4460.jpg)
One down, two to go!  Though I am getting nervous about the smaller steering engine, those parts are going to be pretty small - may need to invite George Britnell over for some mini-milling lessons!
 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Firebird on February 10, 2019, 10:11:39 AM
 :popcornsmall:

Cheers

Rich
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 10, 2019, 03:34:54 PM
This morning saw the rest of the crankshaft webs milled/filed down to shape, that should complete the crankshafts!   :wine1:
(https://i.postimg.cc/HWwCx8D7/IMG-4462.jpg)


(https://i.postimg.cc/2S6p2Hq4/IMG-4463.jpg)
So, next step is to shape the engine bases, which include the crankshaft bearings, crosshead guides, and valve rocker mountings - everything on the white 3D printed mockup in the photo above. Due to the complex shapes involved, I am going to use more of the 1144 stressproof steel bar to make these from. After a session with the bandsaw, I have the set of 'castings' for the 3 engine blocks (2 for the Marion model, one for separate display):
(https://i.postimg.cc/fT5n74bz/IMG-4464.jpg)
These were all cut from a 2-1/2" diameter bar of 1144. I took 5/8" thick slabs off the sides to get the rough rectangles, next will be some time with the flycutter to even them all up to nice box shapes. This is the first time I've taken a slab off the side of a large bar and not gotten any warp in the slab, here is a closeup of the joint between the main bar and the sawn off side slab from one of the cuts set back on top - still even all the way across:
(https://i.postimg.cc/3J3QDrYf/IMG-4466.jpg)
Looks like a day or so of stock prep and cleaning up chips flung all over from the fly cutter! Amazing how they bounce around any guards and plexi sheets I put up....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 10, 2019, 06:05:12 PM
And the chips are a flyin off the engine block blanks - I love the finish the fly cutter leaves, hate the mess it makes... No matter what chip guard sheets I put up, they bounce all over, like ping pong balls in the mousetrap testing room...
Started by taking all three to same thickness, smoothing off the two large sides:
(https://i.postimg.cc/wjJYZw5Z/IMG-4468.jpg)
and have started taking them to width:
(https://i.postimg.cc/nLJfJq0z/IMG-4469.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 10, 2019, 09:53:06 PM
It quickly became obvious that using the fly cutter to take the arcs out of the sides would take far too long, it does not like taking too deep a cut. So, back up to the bandsaw and took the slivers off the sides (about 1/8" off each side).

(https://i.postimg.cc/x1xz8rsJ/IMG-4471.jpg)
Then finished off the sides with the flycutter - I sawed off one side, used the other as a reference at the bottom of the vise, milled the sawn side, then cut and milled the second side. A couple of passes at the ends as well, and we now have 3 identical starting blanks for the engines. Like the old joke said - used to be round! The bar in the back left is what is left of the original bar.

(https://i.postimg.cc/q7NCCmYm/IMG-4470.jpg)
Now time to do some sketching and studying of the 3D printed sample, and decide what order to start cutting in to the blanks....  As a reminder, here is where this all is going (working on the center section, the cylinder/steam chest at the top/left is a separate piece).

(https://i.postimg.cc/B6BDy4sP/IMG_4359.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on February 10, 2019, 11:55:46 PM
Man, that's a lot of whittling to do!

 :popcorn: :popcorn:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 10, 2019, 11:58:53 PM
Man, that's a lot of whittling to do!

 :popcorn: :popcorn:

Pete
Yeah, gotta empty the vacuum bucket before starting on these, will need the room!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 11, 2019, 12:09:45 AM
This evening I've been studying the plans and the 3D prototype, working out the sequence of operations for the engine block. So far so good, with one exception: to make room for the eccentric arms and fittings, there is a recess on the inside of the crosshead guide, along the outer wall - here is a picture of it:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Gpq2mvqc/Engine-Block.jpg)
Not sure how to make that - my best guess is to do a shaper-like operation, clamp the part in the mill vise and push a cutter down along the inside of the crosshead bore like a shaper machine does to peel off thin chips? If this was wood I'd just run a chisel down there, that seems like the closest analog to it. Or maybe use a woodruff cutter or something to take out the bulk of it, then carve in the corners with a rotary tool? The front of that recess ends where the cutout is in the side of the crosshead guide. Another thought I had was to mill it from the outside, then cover with a thin plate.


Lots of clever types here - how would you folks do this?  Turn your Albert Elfstein's loose on it, promise them a cookie for a good answer! Mine is off partying somewhere, some ninny taught them to bowl recently...


Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: RonGinger on February 11, 2019, 12:15:07 AM
That looks like a real CNC job to me. You will need wrist surgery after cranking in all those pockets. I bet you could drive over to my shop in Maine, do the parts, and drive home quicker than all the cranking.

And times 3 is just the final straw. Offer is open to mail them over  :atcomputer:

I could also loan you my CNC converted Sherline.  >:D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 11, 2019, 12:21:26 AM
That looks like a real CNC job to me. You will need wrist surgery after cranking in all those pockets. I bet you could drive over to my shop in Maine, do the parts, and drive home quicker than all the cranking.

And times 3 is just the final straw. Offer is open to mail them over  :atcomputer:

I could also loan you my CNC converted Sherline.  >:D
Much appreciated Ron, but it would take all the fun out of it for me! Though the seafood is great up that way...
And even with CNC, how would you do that inside recess?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: RonGinger on February 11, 2019, 12:40:04 AM
Once you watch a CNC cut out a pocket like that front one, you will never go back to cranks. Particularly if its a CNC you built yourself. But I understand we are all doing this because it suits our view of fun.

Yeah, the inside recess is tricky. I have not had much luck with the shaper method, and my mill and lathe are much stiffer than yours.

I am surprised you are not fabricating these. I see a number of small blocks that would be quick and easy to cut and assemble. I bet Kozo would not cut it from the solid.

Once its a bit warmer I can have lobsters dropped right to my dock, dont even have to go into town. Unless you like eating on the dock with a view of the harbor.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 11, 2019, 12:59:03 AM
I did consider piecing the block up, but wanted to try a solid one this time. The walls are fairly thin so soldering would require perfect runs. Could be done either way. The large pocket will have most of the metal drilled out, which goes quick, the finished up with the mill. This assembly would be a great one for a fine casting.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Captain Jerry on February 11, 2019, 01:14:51 AM
Coming in from the outside and covering with a plate looks like a good option.  I hope you are not going to do all those bosses on the top for the valve linkage. Bolt on blocks will do just fine.  There will be plenty of hand work with those curved and rolled edges.


Jerry
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 11, 2019, 01:20:39 AM
Coming in from the outside and covering with a plate looks like a good option.  I hope you are not going to do all those bosses on the top for the valve linkage. Bolt on blocks will do just fine.  There will be plenty of hand work with those curved and rolled edges.


Jerry
Good point on the top blocks, bolting them on would make it a lot easier to shape the top. The pivot blocks could be one piece bronze made to look like the two piece originals. They are small and close to other features. Hmm.. the outside ones are on thin section, screws would be short... Have to look at them again...   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: sco on February 11, 2019, 03:08:10 AM
Depending on how deep the recess is wouldn't a lollipop type cutter get most of that out from above?

Simon.




Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on February 11, 2019, 03:46:17 AM
This afternoon I got the other two crankshaft centers cut down like the first:
(https://i.postimg.cc/CKwvz1yh/IMG-4454.jpg)


Wow!!!  And I thought making ONE was a chore  :facepalm:

Looks great Chris.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on February 11, 2019, 04:09:13 AM
EDM would make short work of those recesses Chris, without the need to insert extra pieces in a through-hole cut. A copper electrode the shape of the recess, mounted on a bent copper rod to get it in place, sunk into each side in turn with the crankcase set vertically for the burn. Do you know anyone local with an EDM? Would you risk the elves having a road trip to my shop to use my EDM? (no bowling or egg nog with Navy rum here for them to indulge their new pastimes)  :naughty:

The EDM was built a few years ago to the Ben Fleming design with some improvements. Works great for jobs like this. If the electrodes are made about .003" undersize the cut comes out very close to exact desired size. Depth needs checking frequently and can vary in large cuts, so multiple electrodes, roughing, then finishing, are used for large jobs.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 11, 2019, 12:21:02 PM
Depending on how deep the recess is wouldn't a lollipop type cutter get most of that out from above?

Simon.
A lollipop cutter? What is that?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 11, 2019, 12:24:27 PM
EDM would make short work of those recesses Chris, without the need to insert extra pieces in a through-hole cut. A copper electrode the shape of the recess, mounted on a bent copper rod to get it in place, sunk into each side in turn with the crankcase set vertically for the burn. Do you know anyone local with an EDM? Would you risk the elves having a road trip to my shop to use my EDM? (no bowling or egg nog with Navy rum here for them to indulge their new pastimes)  :naughty:

The EDM was built a few years ago to the Ben Fleming design with some improvements. Works great for jobs like this. If the electrodes are made about .003" undersize the cut comes out very close to exact desired size. Depth needs checking frequently and can vary in large cuts, so multiple electrodes, roughing, then finishing, are used for large jobs.
I have heard the edm term, but don't know anything about it. It uses a spark from the electrode to peck away at the surface?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 11, 2019, 01:00:42 PM
Coming in from the outside and covering with a plate looks like a good option.  I hope you are not going to do all those bosses on the top for the valve linkage. Bolt on blocks will do just fine.  There will be plenty of hand work with those curved and rolled edges.


Jerry
Good point on the top blocks, bolting them on would make it a lot easier to shape the top. The pivot blocks could be one piece bronze made to look like the two piece originals. They are small and close to other features. Hmm.. the outside ones are on thin section, screws would be short... Have to look at them again...   :cheers:
The wall thickness under those top blocks is too thin to get a screw into without breaking through into the crosshead bore, so the blocks will need to be milled into the surface. They sit on or intersect into the flat section, which makes it easier.Its just the rounded area next to them that may need to be hand done with a file. This whole part is only about 2" wide, not a lot of room for piecing things up.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: sco on February 11, 2019, 01:06:51 PM
Depending on how deep the recess is wouldn't a lollipop type cutter get most of that out from above?

Simon.
A lollipop cutter? What is that?

Also called an undercutting endmill: http://www.harveytool.com/cat/Undercutting-End-Mills/Specialty-Profiles/Browse-Our-Products_192.aspx (http://www.harveytool.com/cat/Undercutting-End-Mills/Specialty-Profiles/Browse-Our-Products_192.aspx)

You can make them by grinding down most of the flutes of an endmill, ball ended or otherwise.

Another alternative would be Tee slot cutter or hockeystick cutter - like the lollipop but only a single point so like a boring tool.

Simon.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 11, 2019, 01:12:28 PM
Depending on how deep the recess is wouldn't a lollipop type cutter get most of that out from above?

Simon.
A lollipop cutter? What is that?

Also called an undercutting endmill: http://www.harveytool.com/cat/Undercutting-End-Mills/Specialty-Profiles/Browse-Our-Products_192.aspx (http://www.harveytool.com/cat/Undercutting-End-Mills/Specialty-Profiles/Browse-Our-Products_192.aspx)

You can make them by grinding down most of the flutes of an endmill, ball ended or otherwise.

Another alternative would be Tee slot cutter or hockeystick cutter - like the lollipop but only a single point so like a boring tool.

Simon.
Thats definitely a possibility - I have some carbide ones like those that I use for wood carving in the rotary tool, not sure if they are up to cutting steel but worth a try. I'd have to find cheaper ones than what HarveyTools carries, $224 for a cutter is out of my range. Or like you mention, grind down a normal endmill. A tee slot cutter would get most of the material out, just would leave a radius instead of inside corner, but that could be either left as is or taken in with a rotary tool bur.
I'll do some tests - thanks!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on February 11, 2019, 01:19:09 PM
I'd use a woodruff cutter before I'd grind up an endmill.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 11, 2019, 02:08:13 PM
Been doing some measuring - given the length of the reach to the recess from either end, and the depth of the recess, the lollypop style cutters that I have from my carving tools would be barely in the chuck to reach, so they are out. I looked at my t slot cutters, same issues there - the shank is not long enough, or is too thick to leave enough reach back into the recess without hitting something else.

One other possible - One of my boring head cutters for the mill has a thin but long shank, and would reach all the way in from the ends, and have a cutting radius that would work out without hitting anything else. It would leave the sides of the recess curved, but those could be taken back with the rotary tool.

If none of those work, there is always the fallback of milling it through from the side, and patching in a cover plate. Sounds like its worth some tests to see how it works out on some scrap....
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on February 11, 2019, 02:08:40 PM
Hi Chris, yes, EDM stands for electrical discharge machining. Each spark erodes a tiny chip of metal. Goes through steel, hard or soft, like it wasn't there. Any shape is possible if you can make a electrode of the "positive" shape of the cut - no compromises needed for rounded corners of the pockets, that would happen with Woodruff or Dremel cutters etc. in case that matters. I emailed you a link to some pics and videos too.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 11, 2019, 02:59:25 PM
Hi Chris, yes, EDM stands for electrical discharge machining. Each spark erodes a tiny chip of metal. Goes through steel, hard or soft, like it wasn't there. Any shape is possible if you can make a electrode of the "positive" shape of the cut - no compromises needed for rounded corners of the pockets, that would happen with Woodruff or Dremel cutters etc. in case that matters. I emailed you a link to some pics and videos too.
Thats some pretty impressive cutting! I think I'll try the boring bar/rotary tool experiments first, and see how it goes, that could be a good fallback though. I'd like to keep it to standard milling tools if possible, since this may wind up an article/plan series like the Lombard model did.

 :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on February 11, 2019, 03:17:48 PM
Thanks Chris! The EDM is not a machine most people need every day or even very often. The thing is, when you need it you REALLY need it! I built it when faced with some ops on a project that could not be done any other way. It also helped to have a solid background in using commercial EDM machines, and programming CNC ones, in the early part of my work life in toolrooms for moulds and dies at big firms.

I understand 100% about wanting to keep it all milling and turning on conventional tools though, for articles and also to keep the work all in your own shop. Just wanted to mention EDM in case you got in a real bind with blind recesses at any point.  :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 11, 2019, 04:40:36 PM
Thanks Chris! The EDM is not a machine most people need every day or even very often. The thing is, when you need it you REALLY need it! I built it when faced with some ops on a project that could not be done any other way. It also helped to have a solid background in using commercial EDM machines, and programming CNC ones, in the early part of my work life in toolrooms for moulds and dies at big firms.

I understand 100% about wanting to keep it all milling and turning on conventional tools though, for articles and also to keep the work all in your own shop. Just wanted to mention EDM in case you got in a real bind with blind recesses at any point.  :cheers: :cheers:
I do appreciate it, will keep it in mind!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 11, 2019, 10:55:10 PM
This afternoon saw the shaping on the engine blocks begin - took the rear half down to final height first. This is the height of the rim around the crankshaft bay. More shaping later on will take this down at an angle to the top of the bearing blocks, and down to the height of the base at the rear. That shaping will be done later on though, for now leaving it squared off will give a convenient place to clamp the block in the vise for working on the crosshead guide region.
Next up was to start chain drilling out the crankshaft bay center area - used a 9/32" drill to go down to just above the finished depth of the 'floor' of the bay, holes .300 apart. This looks like a lot of drilling, but it is only about 15 minutes per engine block, and it will drastically reduce the time needed with the end mill to hog out the bays.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9FzScKcz/IMG-4474.jpg)
I was surprised at the difference in the chips from the drill (long spirals) vs the end mill and lathe (short curved chips). This 1144 is quite nice to work - wish it came in rectangular bar stock. You guys were right about its properties!

The area in front of the bay is tall for now, that will get taken down later to the height of the flange at the back of the cylinder cover, and also leaves room for the lifting lugs and valve/throttle bearing blocks. I have a sequence mapped out for all the shaping, hopefully it pans out well. The base plate section will remain a nice rectangle, which will be used to do the final shaping.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on February 12, 2019, 12:03:53 AM
I'm glad you explained the drilling - for a minute there I thought the shop elves were adding a "Connect 4" game like the pic below to the bowling alley......

I'd hide this pic from them if I were you..... :paranoia:

Just kidding, that's a great start on the engine blocks!  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gary.a.ayres on February 12, 2019, 12:11:48 AM
Some complex machining up ahead, by the looks of it.

Kudos to you, and the best of luck with it!

 :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 12, 2019, 12:16:08 AM
Thanks guys. The chain drilling saves a LOT of milling time on something like this, the bay will be nearly a cubic inch of metal removed, leaving a flat bottomed chamber.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 12, 2019, 07:48:27 PM
With all of the chain drilling repeated on all three engine blocks, was time to start milling out the remaining webs:

(https://i.postimg.cc/02QRTytw/IMG-4475.jpg)

Took them down in a couple of layers....

(https://i.postimg.cc/KvHSxhVs/IMG-4476.jpg)

Till it got down as far as the medium sized cutter would go. I'll go back with a 3/8" diameter one to clean up the bottom and take the sides down to final dimension.

(https://i.postimg.cc/dVZM0ScQ/IMG-4478.jpg)

With the bulk of the metal removed with the drill, the milling is going pretty quickly. The holes also gave a place for the chips to go, so I didn't have to stop too often to dump them out. One down, two more to get to this stage...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 13, 2019, 12:25:30 AM
The other two are to the same point, center of the crankshaft bay hogged out and ready to take to final dimensions with larger end mill... More tomorrow...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 13, 2019, 04:24:12 PM
This morning saw the crankshaft bays taken down to final dimensions all the way down...
(https://i.postimg.cc/zGNV96sR/IMG-4479.jpg)
On the final parts, the back inside corners will be a small radius, but the small end mill will not reach all the way down until the wall is taken down short. I am leaving the back wall tall for clamping purposes until the crosshead guides are complete.
Here they are with the crankshafts, for a small family shot.
(https://i.postimg.cc/m2CPpB5s/IMG-4483.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on February 13, 2019, 04:56:54 PM
Hello Chris,

That is looking really good.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on February 13, 2019, 08:34:38 PM
They look great Chris, well done! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Now you've got three places to toss all those small nuts and bolts!  :naughty:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 13, 2019, 09:03:04 PM
They look great Chris, well done! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Now you've got three places to toss all those small nuts and bolts!  :naughty:
I never knew it so much work to make a parts bin!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 13, 2019, 10:26:11 PM
Some more progress on the engine bases this afternoon, laid out and center drilled
(https://i.postimg.cc/bJy8X6ty/IMG-4484.jpg)
then drilled
(https://i.postimg.cc/brdhrsg4/IMG-4485.jpg)
all the starter holes for the crosshead guides in the blocks. I put the blocks in at the back right corner of the mill vise, so I could repeat the position in the vise for all the holes. The drill is several sizes smaller than the finished bore, so I am not worried about any wander in the length of the holes, that will be brought back in by the boring head.

Here are the blocks all drilled:
(https://i.postimg.cc/KjVyMxsj/IMG-4486.jpg)
Got a start on boring the first hole out to size - found that I needed to grind a bit back on the shank of the boring bar to get the depth needed for the block, but there is plenty sticking out of the holder.

(https://i.postimg.cc/C1c0wjGj/IMG-4487.jpg)
Enough for one day, more on this tomorrow....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on February 13, 2019, 10:34:47 PM
Impressive so you decided to make it out of one piece. Waiting to see how that works out with the round overs.  :ThumbsUp:


 :popcorn:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 13, 2019, 11:27:41 PM
Impressive so you decided to make it out of one piece. Waiting to see how that works out with the round overs.  :ThumbsUp:


 :popcorn:
Don


Me too!  The rounding at the front where the cylinders attach will be done with the rotary table horizontal on the mill, holding the block with the four jaw by the walls around the crankshaft bay. That part should be straightforward. The top features will be next, recessing them into the flat top. There is only a small roundover from there on the sides. The front of the bay wall will be tricky. I think it will all work, all the same tricky spits would be there even if pieced up. Time will tell!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 14, 2019, 08:41:07 PM
Halfway through boring the holes for the crosshead guides:
(https://i.postimg.cc/W3tGrHjt/IMG-4489.jpg)
Once they are done, I need to drill a hole matching each in the back wall of the crank bay, to counterbore the back .100" of each hole out another .100 wider - It appears they did that for con rod clearance. The back end of the base plate sticks up higher there, but it looks like the cutting edge of the boring tool can reach around that. So far so good....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on February 14, 2019, 10:54:36 PM
Chris,
You are in an alternate Dimension, I have proof
" Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #3174 on: Today at 08:41:07 PM »"
This was copied at 5;53 PM
Gerald.
PS it must be the form that is "Today at 10:54:36 PM »"
PPs I know forum runs on GMT
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 15, 2019, 12:55:03 AM
Chris,
You are in an alternate Dimension, I have proof
" Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #3174 on: Today at 08:41:07 PM »"
This was copied at 5;53 PM
Gerald.
PS it must be the form that is "Today at 10:54:36 PM »"
PPs I know forum runs on GMT
Well, I am in the better universe with more hours per day....!   ;D   Works great except for jury duty.  :(

If you go into your forum profile there is a setting for the time zone, you can set how many hours from GMT you are and it adjusts the timestamps for you.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 15, 2019, 11:50:42 PM
This afternoon saw the rest of the crosshead guide passages bored out to size - still want to lap them smoother on the inside, but before I do that I am going to do the shallow counterbore at the back of the openings, where they go into the crank bay. I think this is for conrod clearance on the original. To start, I have drilled and bored some 0.439" holes in the back walls, lined up with the bores. This is the largest hole I can put there without cutting into the final top of the wall after it is cut down later on, but it is large enough so that a boring cutter with a larger head on it can reach through and do the counterbores (bores are .525", counterbores are .625" diameter).
(https://i.postimg.cc/2jTzNY6v/IMG-4491.jpg)
Good place to stop for the day, should be doing the counterbores tomorrow. After that they can be lapped, and start on the next phase of the shaping.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on February 16, 2019, 12:21:09 AM
Looking good Chris!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on February 16, 2019, 12:36:37 AM
I must continually remind myself that those parts are.....TINY! Well, maybe not GB tiny....

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
 :popcorn: :popcorn:

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 16, 2019, 12:56:21 AM
I must continually remind myself that those parts are.....TINY! Well, maybe not GB tiny....

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
 :popcorn: :popcorn:

Pete


Nowhere near GB tiny, wish I could do that!  He has a huge penny for photos, I have a small mill!   :Lol:


The engine blocks are 2x3", not that small. The engine I am wondering about is the steering engine to come later. It is the same design as these, but another 30% smaller. May need to subcontract with George!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 16, 2019, 01:38:14 AM
I must continually remind myself that those parts are.....TINY! Well, maybe not GB tiny....

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
 :popcorn: :popcorn:

Pete


Nowhere near GB tiny, wish I could do that!  He has a huge penny for photos, I have a small mill!   :Lol:


The engine blocks are 2x3", not that small. The engine I am wondering about is the steering engine to come later. It is the same design as these, but another 30% smaller. May need to subcontract with George!
Well, on second look, maybe it is a little small....
(https://i.postimg.cc/NGTrY5XV/IMG-4492.jpg)
After so long working with the parts, they start looking bigger to me. Same thing happened all the time on my ship models.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sX7G90C2/100-1034.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: scc on February 16, 2019, 09:40:53 AM
Chris,  I have a soft spot for wooden ships and that model looks beautiful. Is there a "site" where I can look at your fleet?      Terry
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 16, 2019, 01:54:51 PM
Chris,  I have a soft spot for wooden ships and that model looks beautiful. Is there a "site" where I can look at your fleet?      Terry

I'll second that!  :ThumbsUp:

Jim

PS: What kind of wood is that Chris?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 16, 2019, 02:02:52 PM
Hi Terry/Jim, I don't have a site for the models, but I have put up pics of the ships before, will repost some in a while. The wood on this one is pear and lemon woods, wonderfully tight grain, hold edges well and is very dense and strong. That model is of a French 74 gun ship, I have a set of books that the French national maritime museum published with fold out plans, 4 huge volumes that show every stick and fitting in it.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 16, 2019, 04:00:46 PM
Here are some shots of a few of my better ship models (started making them as a kid, the early ones are no where near this good). This is the 74-gun ship (note that I did not make the upper masts, it would have made the case enourmous)
(https://i.postimg.cc/NMRzwpY9/100-0994.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/HxX3c2Sw/100-1078.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/B62TmvfH/100-1114.jpg)
This is the clipper ship Young America - fully planked hull over a solid core, did this one before the 74
(https://i.postimg.cc/LXj8SPqr/DSC-0155.jpg)
The brigantine Leon, built to the Underhilll book plans, along with some of my scrimshaw work:

(https://i.postimg.cc/qR2yFzp7/DSC-0174.jpg)

More recently I've gotten into bird carving, this is a life size Peregrin falcon, done in Tupelo wood, woodburned in the feathers (which took longer than carving the bird), and painted. The gold stern eagle in the background is one I did as well, carved in pine then gold leafed.

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZRrZyhxg/IMG-2056a.jpg)
Closeup of the head:
(https://i.postimg.cc/cHfkcxjR/IMG-2032a.jpg)
One of my RC boats, the steamer Sabino from Mystic Seaport, built to their plans. This one ran with the real one many years ago.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vBfsJd1h/ship-7.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 16, 2019, 04:03:01 PM
Back on the Marion, this morning I got the counterbores done on the back end of the crosshead guides:
(https://i.postimg.cc/P5fZz3nW/IMG-4495.jpg)
I know it seems like a lot of effort for a small detail, but thats the kind of thing I like adding in. Here are the parts ready for lapping the bores.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BnhFhTJd/IMG-4497.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on February 16, 2019, 06:27:06 PM
You're crosshead guides are look great, Chris!

And your ship models are fantastic too (as are your carvings).  Interesting, we've been into similar things in the past - I've done ship building and carving (though no where near as good or prolific as you on either front).  Your work is quite amazing in all areas!

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 16, 2019, 08:28:39 PM
You're crosshead guides are look great, Chris!

And you ship models are fantastic too (as are your carvings).  Interesting, we've been into similar things in the past - I've done ship building and carving (though no where near as good or prolific as you on either front).  Your work is quite amazing in all areas!

Kim
Thanks Kim!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 16, 2019, 08:46:46 PM
Before setting up to mill the arcs in the front of the crosshead guides, I want to make and bolt on the bottom cylinder covers. They have a small boss that fits into the guides, and they share the same bolt pattern, so I want those features to all match up. The bottom cover will then be able to work as a drill guide for the bolt holes in the back flange of the cylinder block as well.

So, started with some blanks of stress relieved brass bar stock - these could just as well have been made of steel, but I have brass the right dimensions, and strength is not a concern since these covers will be held between the crosshead guides and the cylinder blocks. The blanks were stacked and clamped together, put in the vise to drill the piston rod holes plus a set of holes in the center to hold them during machining. Note that there are three holes in the center group, that turned out not to be needed, only the outer two were used in that group. The two outer holes are the same distance apart as the cylinder centers, .75", and the center group is halfway between.

(https://i.postimg.cc/5yw89yZ1/IMG-4490.jpg)
Yet another fixture was needed to mill them to shape (imagine that, a fixture on this model!) A offcut of steel rod was trued up in the lathe, and the center hole drilled/tapped.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HLRMQbmd/IMG-4498.jpg)
Keeping the arbor in place, the chuck was moved over to the mill table and centered under the head using the pointy end of an edge finder.
(https://i.postimg.cc/s2vSQwtT/IMG-4499.jpg)
Then moved over half the distance between the cylinders, and drilled matching holes to the ones in the blanks:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ryW1NZzb/IMG-4501.jpg)
The chuck was moved onto the rotary table (realized I could have started there rather than down on the mill table) and the first blank bolted down.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BQ0xY5Kv/IMG-4502.jpg)
And with the cutter set to the depth of the boss, 0.080", milled away the stock at one end. The bolts in the center kept me from going all the way around at first.
(https://i.postimg.cc/jd4yGWH4/IMG-4503.jpg)
So first one bolt was removed, and one side of the remaining portion removed.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FHP3H2nf/IMG-4504.jpg)
Then that bolt put back, the other removed, and the last bit milled away.
(https://i.postimg.cc/SxQcqyVF/IMG-4505.jpg)
The part was then turned around to center the other hole, and the process repeated on that end.
(https://i.postimg.cc/k4SbwDM8/IMG-4506.jpg)
A few swipes with the file to remove the burs, and it fit on the first cylinder.   :cartwheel:
(https://i.postimg.cc/sxRZLy1L/IMG-4508.jpg)
So, one down, two more to go:
(https://i.postimg.cc/MHbj24Qp/IMG-4509.jpg)
Once the blanks are milled to shape, I will use the outer holes in the center group as drill guides for the bolt holes in the crosshead block. That will let me bolt the covers to the crossheads for milling the outer arcs in both at once, and also drill the bolt holes in the rims.
The centers of the bosses need to be counterbored for the packing glands, and drilled for the mounting holes on those - that will all be done later when the glands are made. For now, I am concentrating on the large  parts of the engine assembly.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: scc on February 16, 2019, 08:52:13 PM
Chris do you ever rest?     Wonderful work again :ThumbsUp:
Thanks for posting your ship photos....speechless :praise2:    Are they all around your house or on show somewhere?

Terry
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 16, 2019, 08:59:16 PM
Chris do you ever rest?     Wonderful work again :ThumbsUp:
Thanks for posting your ship photos....speechless :praise2:    Are they all around your house or on show somewhere?

Terry
Thanks Terry! These are all on show around the house. Lotsa hobbies over a lotta years!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on February 17, 2019, 12:12:19 AM
One of my RC boats, the steamer Sabino from Mystic Seaport, built to their plans. This one ran with the real one many years ago.
That one I remember quite well.
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 17, 2019, 12:16:54 AM
One of my RC boats, the steamer Sabino from Mystic Seaport, built to their plans. This one ran with the real one many years ago.
That one I remember quite well.
Gerald.
Yup, had it at several of the rc events up in Toronto, at Harbourfront. Those where fun days!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Zephyrin on February 17, 2019, 08:19:29 AM
amazing skill on the wooden ships too, beautiful models !


Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 17, 2019, 02:23:46 PM
That's beautiful work on the ship models and carvings, Chris. I like the looks of that pear wood. Thanks for posting.

Also, your Marion is coming along nicely.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 17, 2019, 05:22:00 PM
Yesterday afternoon the rest of the bottom cylinder covers were milled to shape:
(https://i.postimg.cc/LsrVtK9h/IMG-4510.jpg)
So this morning I set up to mill the arcs in the ends of the crossheads and covers. I started out by reversing two of the jaws on the 4-jaw to hold the long axis of the parts, left the other two normal for the short axis of the parts, but that did not clamp securely enough and it wanted to keep rocking in the chuck (wound up cutting too deep on one lower corner, will have to JB Weld that one). So, switched to holding the part diagonally between the jaws with all the jaws in the normal orientation. It does make it tougher to fine-tune the position, but it holds very securely, having the base of the part flat on the chuck face helps. After a bit of fiddling with the jaws, got it centered up on one hole in the cover:

(https://i.postimg.cc/x18GBTqc/IMG-4514.jpg)
and started by milling the arc on that end, around to tangent to the bottom surface, and to the center of the part on top. You can see where the corner got dug into in the lower left - not much, but that is the front corner of the final base plate so I'll patch that.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Pr2z68Xg/IMG-4515.jpg)
Then recentered on the other piston center:
(https://i.postimg.cc/rF8NC9kG/IMG-4516.jpg)
and milled that side as well.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9XPB7nvF/IMG-4517.jpg)
With both arcs done, then milled the flat tangent to the two arcs on the bottom:
(https://i.postimg.cc/G2Gxz7tK/IMG-4518.jpg)
Last milling was to do the inset around the end of the crosshead block. I think they had this as a place to pry against when taking the cylinders off the base, just a shallow recess all the way around. It did require recentering on the first side again to do that end, but with the practice it is going quickly now.

(https://i.postimg.cc/hvnbYL7B/IMG-4519.jpg)
And here is the first crosshead block with the end shaped:
(https://i.postimg.cc/BbCcfjx1/IMG-4520.jpg)
One down, two to go. The excess material on the sides and top are there for a reason - on the sides, the base of the part extends out to give room for the bolts into the floor. On the top, this gives room to mill in the brackets and bearings on the top for the valves and throttle.
First, time for lunch!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on February 17, 2019, 05:32:03 PM
Well Dog it’s a start!..... :ThumbsUp:

 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 17, 2019, 10:48:28 PM
Continuing the start, the other two are up to the same point. Next I think I will start taking down the top surface, leaving the pivot bearing blocks and lifting rings sticking up, then shape down the sides. That will make drilling/tapping the cover holes easier, since they will be through-holes rather than blind.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Pr92jhMq/IMG-4521.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 18, 2019, 06:38:42 PM
This morning started taking down the top surfaces of the crosshead guides. First did the sections on the outside edges, now am moving to the inner areas. The sections with the bearing blocks and lifting rings are being left tall, will trim them to final height after the main milling is done. I started out just with the end mill, that was taking too long, then switched back to chain drilling first - much faster overall. The drill is taken down close to final depth, the end mill takes out the remaining lattice and goes to final depth.

(https://i.postimg.cc/sDdN3QbQ/IMG-4526.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 18, 2019, 08:47:36 PM
All three crosshead blocks have been chain drilled in the center sections, and the first one had had the bulk of the material milled out:
(https://i.postimg.cc/MKyCxNtQ/IMG-4527.jpg)
Will do the same on the other two, then go back with a small end mill and take the blocks out to final dimensions. That will go a bit slower, lots of stops to measure widths.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on February 18, 2019, 10:07:18 PM
Ahhh so much to go yet! Looking pretty good Dog keep it coming!...... :ThumbsUp:


 :popcorn:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 19, 2019, 12:12:14 AM
Well, the shop elves saw all the new snow outside today, and tried to sneak off and go sledding in this big red sleigh they 'found' somewhere (has this fancy 'SC' logo on the side), but first I made them go back in the shop and rough out the top shapes on the crossheads:
(https://i.postimg.cc/qMYbWdPr/IMG-4531.jpg)
After that they went off sledding with this funny looking horses, one had a reddish nose, must be a drinker....! 
 :Lol:
Next will be to put in a smaller diameter mill cutter, and do the fine trimming to get the shapes to final sizes. Enough for one day though, its time to go put on a movie for the elves!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 19, 2019, 04:30:17 PM
Top shapes trimmed down to size this morning:

(https://i.postimg.cc/fTZMN28P/IMG-4534.jpg)
Next step will be to take the sides in next to the crosshead bores...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamer on February 19, 2019, 04:32:56 PM
Its always fun to see a Sherline "gettin jiggy with it"    Nice hogments!

 :praise2:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 19, 2019, 04:39:21 PM
Its always fun to see a Sherline "gettin jiggy with it"    Nice hogments!

 :praise2:
It CAN dance a bit on interrupted cuts...!   :Lol:

This 1144 steel is very stable, that is working out quite well - it is a little harder to cut than the 303 I've been using for everything else though. Not a bad tradeoff for no warping.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamer on February 19, 2019, 04:41:23 PM
Its always fun to see a Sherline "gettin jiggy with it"    Nice hogments!

 :praise2:
It CAN dance a bit on interrupted cuts...!   :Lol:

This 1144 steel is very stable, that is working out quite well - it is a little harder to cut than the 303 I've been using for everything else though. Not a bad tradeoff for no warping.

I LOVE 1144.    It's good for just about anything, and it's a joy to machine with a sharp tool.

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 19, 2019, 04:43:06 PM
Its always fun to see a Sherline "gettin jiggy with it"    Nice hogments!

 :praise2:
It CAN dance a bit on interrupted cuts...!   :Lol:

This 1144 steel is very stable, that is working out quite well - it is a little harder to cut than the 303 I've been using for everything else though. Not a bad tradeoff for no warping.

I LOVE 1144.    It's good for just about anything, and it's a joy to machine with a sharp tool.

Dave
Its too bad that they dont seem to make it in flat bar stock - I had to slice down a 2-1/2" round bar to get these parts out of the middle, almost half the bar was slabbed away (though the slabs will find use somewhere when squared up).
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamer on February 19, 2019, 04:43:55 PM
YUP  If they made bar stock, I'd have a rack of it...

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on February 19, 2019, 10:38:00 PM
The conrods on my Joy engine were made from 1144, and like your engines 75+% was milled away.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on February 19, 2019, 11:03:07 PM
Great progress Chris.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:  Good luck to to you and the shop elves on the crankcase sides Hog-O-Rama. Might be time to start up the auxiliary 235 HP diesel outside the shop, and engage that C size V belt to the Sherline spindle...  :noidea:.....I can almost hear the turbo spooling up as I type..... :atcomputer:  :naughty:

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 19, 2019, 11:10:43 PM
Great progress Chris.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:  Good luck to to you and the shop elves on the crankcase sides Hog-O-Rama. Might be time to start up the auxiliary 235 HP diesel outside the shop, and engage that C size V belt to the Sherline spindle...  :noidea: .....I can almost hear the turbo spooling up as I type..... :atcomputer: :naughty:
And it rrrrips the chuck right off the spindle!!   :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 19, 2019, 11:15:00 PM
The first section of the sides has been chain drilled on both sides of all three blocks...
(https://i.postimg.cc/rs4DvJLq/IMG-4536.jpg)
And the first section of the first side of all three has been milled away:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Kc33kZ3C/IMG-4537.jpg)
So, tomorrow will likely get the second side up to the same point, and start on the other sections.


That is the deepest of the sections, the rest get shallower. This first section comes very close to the bore in the center, and most of it gets milled through to form the 'windows' in the side of the crosshead guides.

So far so good, but its time for archery league tonight....   :cartwheel:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on February 20, 2019, 02:17:33 AM
I must continually remind myself that those parts are.....TINY! Well, maybe not GB tiny....

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
 :popcorn: :popcorn:

Pete

But somewhat tiny, non the less.  Nice job Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 20, 2019, 04:09:49 PM
I must continually remind myself that those parts are.....TINY! Well, maybe not GB tiny....

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
 :popcorn: :popcorn:

Pete
But somewhat tiny, non the less.  Nice job Chris
Thanks Craig!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 20, 2019, 04:15:24 PM
Okay, here is something I did not expect, bit of a shortcut on cleaning out the chain-drilled areas. Here is what it looked like as drilled, using #26 drill on .150 centers:
(https://i.postimg.cc/rs4DvJLq/IMG-4536.jpg)
The web of metal left was quite thin, and I found as I was milling away the area in shallow layers, sometimes the cutter would snag one of the 'posts' and snap it off. So, this morning before continuing the next piece, I took some needle nose pliers, stuck it down between the posts, and gave it a twist, like a dentist yanking a tooth (ouch). The posts would snap off at the bases with a good twist, leaving the empty cavity:
(https://i.postimg.cc/0jH2mjF4/IMG-4538.jpg')
That made cleaning up the space with the mill much quicker, just had to go around the outsides in a few passes, and then take the bottom down to final depth.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CMvK9r54/IMG-4539.jpg)
So, in short order the sections next to the crosshead tubes are all milled down, ready to start the sections behind them...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 20, 2019, 05:59:11 PM
And on to drilling out the shallower areas in the middle:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Vknyjghw/IMG-4540.jpg)
Same trick worked here, snapping out the web bits:
(https://i.postimg.cc/NfWq9Spb/IMG-4541.jpg)
Another set to do on the opposite sides, then start milling....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on February 20, 2019, 06:37:24 PM
Hello Chris,

Man that is a lot of work on these engines, I am plum tuckered out just from following along. However, your work is fantastic as usual.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 20, 2019, 06:53:10 PM
Hello Chris,

Man that is a lot of work on these engines, I am plum tuckered out just from following along. However, your work is fantastic as usual.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Glad you are getting enough rest so that I can keep working....

Um....

Err...
 :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on February 20, 2019, 07:57:47 PM
Hi Chris, the mental image of the Sherline chuck breaking free and hitting the wall with a solid THUNK per your post pretty much evaporated my 235 HP aux diesel daydream....

Your progress is terrific on the drillage / millage on the cylinder frames. Are you thinking of hanging out a shingle for "LOW COST TOOTH EXTRACTIONS DONE HERE"? Demand may be high given the high cost of dental insurance!  :insane:

Likely fewer complaints or yelling from your cylinder frames though..... no anaesthesia needed on them. :naughty: Wait a minute - The elves may have left some of the Navy rum for human patients..... NAH! :mischief:

How did your archery session go? Tell, William Chris.                      (sorry re bad pun,  without warning marquee)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 20, 2019, 09:13:48 PM
Hi Chris, the mental image of the Sherline chuck breaking free and hitting the wall with a solid THUNK per your post pretty much evaporated my 235 HP aux diesel daydream....

Your progress is terrific on the drillage / millage on the cylinder frames. Are you thinking of hanging out a shingle for "LOW COST TOOTH EXTRACTIONS DONE HERE"? Demand may be high given the high cost of dental insurance!  :insane:

Likely fewer complaints or yelling from your cylinder frames though..... no anaesthesia needed on them. :naughty: Wait a minute - The elves may have left some of the Navy rum for human patients..... NAH! :mischief:

How did your archery session go? Tell, William Chris.                      (sorry re bad pun,  without warning marquee)
:Lol: (to all that!)
Fortunately I've seen enough episodes of Tool Time to know not to hook a Binford 6100 TurboGenerator with 4.3million volts up to my mill...  (I don't think so, Tim)

I had a tooth extraction (well, the outer half of a molar) this past year, so while I do have a air powered high speed rotary tool that sounds like a dental drill, past experience and flashbacks would keep me out of that business (except for telemarketers, who would get free work done. And done. And redone...).

And I am still looking for where those pesky elves hid the rum!

Archery this week went so-so, my aim and concentration were not at peak form, so had a few off shots. This is with a bare recurve, no sights or release, so any lapse in focus means a bad shot. I also shoot a compound with full sights and release, but it is almost too easy, no where near as much fun as the traditional class. The local shop does a weekly winter 3D league, with foam animal targets of all types out to 30 yards, plus trees, fences, etc in the way. One of the animals is always a mover, on a wheeled trolley that moves across the range. There are 5 stations, sitting, standing, kneeling, tree stand, and ground blind, shoot all targets from all positions during the session. Lots of fun, great group up there.

Oh - and on the William (Tell) front - that reminds me of the running gag at our pistol league - any time the range officer gives the Fire At Will command, someone always asks 'wheres Will?'. Its interesting that we have 3 Mikes, couple of Tims, couple Toms, but we have never had anyone named Will join the group!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 20, 2019, 09:22:44 PM
After all the drilling was done, the milling started up again on the last two sections, it steps down from the back to the middle, then up to a small rib.
(https://i.postimg.cc/VNQnZqFm/IMG-4542.jpg)
The majority was taken out with a 3/8" mill, then switched to a 1/8" mill to get into the corners better. The large square section at the back (right end in that picture) will remain till the rest of the work is done on the front end, then it gets taken down at a 45 degree angle for the crankshaft bearings.
Two more parts to get to this point, then can do the rounding of the area behind the end cap...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on February 20, 2019, 09:45:14 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on February 20, 2019, 09:53:58 PM
I say dog gone boy you just chewing up that metal..... starting to look the part Dog and .........I.........like........... :Love:


 :popcorn:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 20, 2019, 10:02:25 PM
Chewed quite a bit of metal so far, the starting bar for each crosshead block was 4.2 pounds, the sawn off slabs weigh 1.8 of that (those are partly usable stock). The blocks right now are down to .8 pounds!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on February 21, 2019, 12:28:08 AM
Hi Chris, the mental image of the Sherline chuck breaking free and hitting the wall with a solid THUNK per your post pretty much evaporated my 235 HP aux diesel daydream....

Your progress is terrific on the drillage / millage on the cylinder frames. Are you thinking of hanging out a shingle for "LOW COST TOOTH EXTRACTIONS DONE HERE"? Demand may be high given the high cost of dental insurance!  :insane:

Likely fewer complaints or yelling from your cylinder frames though..... no anaesthesia needed on them. :naughty: Wait a minute - The elves may have left some of the Navy rum for human patients..... NAH! :mischief:

How did your archery session go? Tell, William Chris.                      (sorry re bad pun,  without warning marquee)
:Lol: (to all that!)
Fortunately I've seen enough episodes of Tool Time to know not to hook a Binford 6100 TurboGenerator with 4.3million volts up to my mill...  (I don't think so, Tim)

I had a tooth extraction (well, the outer half of a molar) this past year, so while I do have a air powered high speed rotary tool that sounds like a dental drill, past experience and flashbacks would keep me out of that business (except for telemarketers, who would get free work done. And done. And redone...).

And I am still looking for where those pesky elves hid the rum!

Archery this week went so-so, my aim and concentration were not at peak form, so had a few off shots. This is with a bare recurve, no sights or release, so any lapse in focus means a bad shot. I also shoot a compound with full sights and release, but it is almost too easy, no where near as much fun as the traditional class. The local shop does a weekly winter 3D league, with foam animal targets of all types out to 30 yards, plus trees, fences, etc in the way. One of the animals is always a mover, on a wheeled trolley that moves across the range. There are 5 stations, sitting, standing, kneeling, tree stand, and ground blind, shoot all targets from all positions during the session. Lots of fun, great group up there.

Oh - and on the William (Tell) front - that reminds me of the running gag at our pistol league - any time the range officer gives the Fire At Will command, someone always asks 'wheres Will?'. Its interesting that we have 3 Mikes, couple of Tims, couple Toms, but we have never had anyone named Will join the group!

If my son Will an I come to visit we will have to remember that. Does your Group do the "Ready on the right, ready on the left, ready on the line, Fire at Will." routine? I found out where that came from.
 It goes back to single shot muzzleloaders,(and Bows before that) and Volley Firing.
Ordinally it was;
1] Make Ready
2] Present : Hold normally
3] Fire : Fire off the desired shot command
Volley Fire : On the command of volley fire the whole company/squad will fire at once, all in unison.
Ripple Fire : When this command is given, whatever side the commanding officer is standing on, one by one down the line you will fire.
Fire at Will : On this command, the whole squad/company will fire at their own accord when they can see a hostile or the line is in danger.

Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 21, 2019, 12:59:44 AM
Hi Chris, the mental image of the Sherline chuck breaking free and hitting the wall with a solid THUNK per your post pretty much evaporated my 235 HP aux diesel daydream....

Your progress is terrific on the drillage / millage on the cylinder frames. Are you thinking of hanging out a shingle for "LOW COST TOOTH EXTRACTIONS DONE HERE"? Demand may be high given the high cost of dental insurance!  :insane:

Likely fewer complaints or yelling from your cylinder frames though..... no anaesthesia needed on them. :naughty: Wait a minute - The elves may have left some of the Navy rum for human patients..... NAH! :mischief:

How did your archery session go? Tell, William Chris.                      (sorry re bad pun,  without warning marquee)
:Lol: (to all that!)
Fortunately I've seen enough episodes of Tool Time to know not to hook a Binford 6100 TurboGenerator with 4.3million volts up to my mill...  (I don't think so, Tim)

I had a tooth extraction (well, the outer half of a molar) this past year, so while I do have a air powered high speed rotary tool that sounds like a dental drill, past experience and flashbacks would keep me out of that business (except for telemarketers, who would get free work done. And done. And redone...).

And I am still looking for where those pesky elves hid the rum!

Archery this week went so-so, my aim and concentration were not at peak form, so had a few off shots. This is with a bare recurve, no sights or release, so any lapse in focus means a bad shot. I also shoot a compound with full sights and release, but it is almost too easy, no where near as much fun as the traditional class. The local shop does a weekly winter 3D league, with foam animal targets of all types out to 30 yards, plus trees, fences, etc in the way. One of the animals is always a mover, on a wheeled trolley that moves across the range. There are 5 stations, sitting, standing, kneeling, tree stand, and ground blind, shoot all targets from all positions during the session. Lots of fun, great group up there.

Oh - and on the William (Tell) front - that reminds me of the running gag at our pistol league - any time the range officer gives the Fire At Will command, someone always asks 'wheres Will?'. Its interesting that we have 3 Mikes, couple of Tims, couple Toms, but we have never had anyone named Will join the group!

If my son Will an I come to visit we will have to remember that. Does your Group do the "Ready on the right, ready on the left, ready on the line, Fire at Will." routine? I found out where that came from.
 It goes back to single shot muzzleloaders,(and Bows before that) and Volley Firing.
Ordinally it was;
1] Make Ready
2] Present : Hold normally
3] Fire : Fire off the desired shot command
Volley Fire : On the command of volley fire the whole company/squad will fire at once, all in unison.
Ripple Fire : When this command is given, whatever side the commanding officer is standing on, one by one down the line you will fire.
Fire at Will : On this command, the whole squad/company will fire at their own accord when they can see a hostile or the line is in danger.

Gerald.
Yup, thats our normal routine for competition speed runs:
- Line is going hot (signal to check everyone, including spectators, has eye/ear protection on and no one is downrange of the line)

- shooters make ready (can load/drop slides and check aim)

- ready on left (shooter(s) on left reply when ready to go)

- ready on right (those on right reply)

- stand by

- fire! (or horn, or timer beep, depending on the event)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on February 21, 2019, 01:03:59 AM
Hello Chris,

Man that is a lot of work on these engines, I am plum tuckered out just from following along. However, your work is fantastic as usual.

Have a great day,
Thomas

I don't understand all the accolades directed at Chris.  Chris is in management and just directs the elves in their work.

Well, regardless of who's doing it, it's first class work ! :Lol:   :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 21, 2019, 01:08:02 AM
This evening saw the last of the side sections milled down to size:
(https://i.postimg.cc/wBBR0fDn/IMG-4545.jpg)
And got the setup for doing the arcs up at the front ends of the crosshead guide tubes. Used the same setup with the rotary table and 4-jaw chuck as before, just mounted vertically this time, and using the tailstock mount to do the centering. The tailstock was centered on the rotab first with a rod with a hole in the end held in the 3-jaw, then switched to the 4-jaw with the parts. As before, used the hole in the center of the cap to indicate on.
(https://i.postimg.cc/g0BX5VDj/IMG-4546.jpg)
First did the small arc on the left side of the block - the only part showing of that is right behind the front cap and flange:
(https://i.postimg.cc/TwLLXK79/IMG-4551.jpg)
Then swapped the part over to the other side, centered on the other hole, and did the arc there, which runs all the way up to the top surface, since this side does not have a bearing block in the way.
(https://i.postimg.cc/SsBXQmHp/IMG-4554.jpg)
Next will be to repeat these steps on the other two blocks, then will be able to finish up the front ends, namely cutting the windows into the crosshead tubes, and drilling for the cap mounting bolts.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 21, 2019, 01:10:34 AM
Hello Chris,

Man that is a lot of work on these engines, I am plum tuckered out just from following along. However, your work is fantastic as usual.

Have a great day,
Thomas

I don't understand all the accolades directed at Chris.  Chris is in management and just directs the elves in their work.

Well, regardless of who's doing it, it's first class work ! :Lol:   :ThumbsUp:
Management? MANAGEMENT!

Thems fighten words to an engineer!!   :cussing:

Ick! Ack! Ptui! Need to wash out my mouth with a chocolate chip cookie....  Mmmmm... Cookie... (yes, as easily distracted as a dog seeing a squirrel. Or a treat. Same thing!)
 :ROFL:

Thanks anyway. But I will have to put you on Zee-probationary status.   :headscratch:
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jo on February 21, 2019, 07:20:47 AM
Management? MANAGEMENT!

Thems fighten words to an engineer!!   :cussing:

Maybe you need to hold a meeting  .. it might slow them down, you could offer cookies to all attendees ::)

Jo
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 21, 2019, 12:57:17 PM
Management? MANAGEMENT!

Thems fighten words to an engineer!!   :cussing:

Maybe you need to hold a meeting  .. it might slow them down, you could offer cookies to all attendees ::)

Jo


First management and now meetings....   :paranoia:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on February 21, 2019, 01:43:34 PM
My two least favourite M words - the bane of my existence much of the time.  :rant:

Wheelbarrows of swarf and bits of fresh-machined metals going round and round - the best antidote! Let's resume that sort of stuff ASAP!  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 21, 2019, 01:47:25 PM
My two least favourite M words - the bane of my existence much of the time.  :rant:

Wheelbarrows of swarf and bits of fresh-machined metals going round and round - the best antidote! Let's resume that sort of stuff ASAP!  :cheers:
At least they didn't use the M*rk*ting word. Ick!


I am going to the shop! Swarf it is!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 21, 2019, 05:21:54 PM
Some good time in the shop this morning, got the rest of the arcs cut behind the front flanges, and also cut the windows in the sides of the crosshead guides:
(https://i.postimg.cc/NfD0gbQd/IMG-4555.jpg)
Now its time to decide how to cut the recesses between the windows and the crankshaft bay. We've been discussing this, once again here is where the recess is - it is sketched in blue pen in this picture, and extends back to the crankshaft bay. It is to give clearance room for the eccentric rods and the clevis at the front end.
(https://i.postimg.cc/yYsd42CJ/IMG-4557.jpg)
Tricky spot to get to, we've talked about using the boring head, lollipop cutters, key seat cutters, that sort of thing. The problem with those is reaching the area, since its an inch away from either end, and about 5/8" long. If no better method comes up, I will mill through from the outside and put a patch panel over the opening on the outside.



Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on February 21, 2019, 06:30:08 PM
I vote we contact GE and have the parts 3D printed in metal.  They do it with jet engine parts, and you've already got the files.  Maybe your elves can work with their elves?

I agree with you, the 3M's are the bane of an engineer's life:
Management
Meetings
M*rk*ting
(Although the order sometimes varies.)

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 21, 2019, 07:03:59 PM
I vote we contact GE and have the parts 3D printed in metal.  They do it with jet engine parts, and you've already got the files.  Maybe your elves can work with their elves?
Love the idea, but only if we can send someone else the bill!   :Lol:   And NO free sample jets for the elves, I don't want them strafing the mall again, it was bad enough when they were riding reindeer!

I agree with you, the 3M's are the bane of an engineer's life:
Management
Meetings
M*rk*ting
(Although the order sometimes varies.)

Don
Please don't swear like that! Only four letter words, no M words!   :LittleDevil:

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 21, 2019, 07:16:23 PM
I think I have something that will work out, along the lines of the lollipop cutter idea from Simon. I did some rummaging around in my carving shop looking at all the rotary tool burrs, and found a cylindrical cutter, double cut tooth pattern, solid carbide (made by WoodCraft of all places for a metal project) that has a 1/4" shank and a 3/8" head. I is long enough to reach all the way through the area to be cut from the back of the part, as long as I widen the hole I made to cut the counterbore. Here it is in action:
(https://i.postimg.cc/yxRzrMK8/IMG-4561.jpg)
The head is just wide enough to reach past the side wall, but not so wide that it takes away too much of the bore. The crosshead itself only uses the top and bottom of the bore, so its okay to cut away part of the side wall. Here it is retracted to show the cut and tool better:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZKrSPzjf/IMG-4562.jpg)
Now, obviously it cannot do the square inside corners, but the size worked out so that I could cut the recess wider past where the corners would be, so at least the eccentric arms will have the clearance they need, which is the point of all this. Here are a couple more views along the bore:
(https://i.postimg.cc/2jLm6ZWN/IMG-4563.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/RVrmnZ16/IMG-4564.jpg)
If need be, to get clearance, I can always nibble that front corner with a ball end tool in the rotary handpiece, but I think it will all clear as is.

So, going to go with that method for the recess, can always revisit it later on once the eccentric linkages are made. Thanks to all for your suggestions!!!   :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on February 21, 2019, 09:06:13 PM
Hi Chris, more great progress!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Looking at your latest pic it occurs to me that at this stage you could get a special homemade broach tool in there to do the final cleanup of the recesses WITH square corners. Think of a regular style broach guide bush, a cylinder with a square slot. You could make one like that to fit one crosshead bore but on an end plate with a second cylinder to enter the other bore to line the broach up.   A similar guide could be rigged at the opposite end. This way the broach would be well supported and lined up all the way from top to bottom. The slots in these guides are both facing outward away from the centre of the cyl frame.  The broach drive bar would be a square bar that can pass through the bores with small clearance, resting on the square slot in the broach guides. Here's the trick - the cutter block part of the broach is inserted in the hole first, then broach bar is fitted behind it. The cutter block sits on a wedge on the broach bar. Broach bar has dowels that drive the cutter block and locate it, but allow the wedge to raise the cutter block into the work after successive cuts. The wedge is advanced after the cutter does a cut. Cutter block is moved outward with the wedge and more cuts are made to clean the recess up. Wedge could be pulled to raise the cutter by a stud and nut in the broach guide bush end plate. The whole rig could be set vertical in a heavy drill press and the rack of the press used to provide the broaching force. Cutter teeth would be a few thou higher each tooth along the block, max. , with maybe 6 teeth.

Elaborate yes, and some small tool work, but would provide nice square corners. Recess could also be done with EDM as we discussed but the broaching would be a process that the Marion shop machinists at the time the original was built would be familiar with. They might do this op with a slotter too, that's basically a vertical shaper, or maybe a shaper if the deflection of a long thin tool was not too much.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 21, 2019, 09:48:47 PM
How would the cutter block be held into the drive bar? If the cutter block is short, wouldn't it tend to rock back when pushed? Or would the cutter block have long tails to slot into the drive bar?  I think I need a sketch.  Sounds like an interesting plan. The bars would need to be hardened to cut, right? I have never used a broach, but have read some about them.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on February 21, 2019, 10:06:01 PM
Hi Chris, Glad to do a sketch. I could lay it out more accurately as 3D parts if you could send me a step file of the cylinder frame part. I'll return you a step assembly of the rig I have in mind. Did I message you my gmail address? If not let me know and I will.

The cutter block would be prevented from rocking because it is backed up by the broach guide bar and wedge along its' length. The cutter block would be the only part that needs to be made in HSS or in hardened gauge plate, as it will have to cut steel.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 21, 2019, 10:14:17 PM
Awesome. I will send you the file tonight, heading out for a league shoot now. I don't have your email, please send that. Thanks!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on February 22, 2019, 05:04:22 PM
Hi Chris, you 've got email.  :atcomputer: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 22, 2019, 06:21:35 PM
Hi Chris, you 've got email.  :atcomputer: :cheers:
Got it - am currently making some corrections to the plans of the Lombard steering gear for the next issue of Live Steam, will check on your files next!
 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 22, 2019, 06:55:38 PM
Hi Chris, you 've got email.  :atcomputer: :cheers:
Got it - am currently making some corrections to the plans of the Lombard steering gear for the next issue of Live Steam, will check on your files next!
 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Jeff, just been looking at your design, was able to load the step files into Fusion no problem, and have reviewed the images too. That is clever as all heck! Seems like it should do the job, couple of questions:

- I can make the cutter from a piece of O1 or W1 steel, and I assume it should be hardened too? Tempered as well? I have not done much of that, just a few pieces for clock arbors.- Think it would be workable from a standard drill press, or should I get an arbor press? I dont have one, but they are not that expensive for a Harbor Fright version, they have a store near here. I would not want to try it with the Sherline, not designed for that kind of force I dont think.
- Any objections to my showing this design and parts here on the forum? Seems like an idea other could benefit from as well.

I think I will try and make this, would clean up the recesses well, though on something this new (to me that is, never done any broaching techniques) I would try it on a test part first. I've been working ahead on drilling holes/etc on the parts, but can come back and broach out these slots no problem.


You definitely deserve a bag of cookies for this one!
 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 22, 2019, 07:17:11 PM
This morning I got the holes drilled in the ends for the bolts to mount the cylinders and caps. Depending on the location, some of these will be threaded in the crosshhead block, some in the cylinder, so for now the holes are all 2-56 tap size. I want to use the cover plate as a drill guide for the cylinder block lower face, so I don't want to enlarge the holes for clearance just yet. The same setup with the rotary table and 4-jaw was used to center and turn the parts as was done for the other milling work. First the holes around one cylinder,

(https://i.postimg.cc/qgVdqB82/IMG-4565.jpg)
then moved the part over and did the opposite side and the one in the bottom center of the flange.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zDLbydCf/IMG-4566.jpg)
Then drilled the cross holes for the lifting lugs (which are just in front of the crankshaft bay, used to lift the engine into position on the real thing, my 'finger crane' is enough to lift them without the lugs but I wanted to model them in). Also drilled the cross holes for the throttle lever, which is in the posts just behind the end cap.
(https://i.postimg.cc/15w8HfYh/IMG-4567.jpg)
While I was at it, drilled the mounting holes for the valve rod rocker arms in the bearing block pads. There will be a set of rods horizontally through these bearing blocks, with levers at the ends and in the middle that transfer the eccentric motion upwards to the valve rods going into the steam chest.
(https://i.postimg.cc/xjWkMK53/IMG-4569.jpg)
Here are the parts so far - ready for some filing work to round over the tops of the lifting lugs/throttle lugs, and to clean up the tool marks left from all the milling work.
(https://i.postimg.cc/t4bYmpL1/IMG-4570.jpg)
The filing time will make a nice break from all the milling/cranking on the machines, then I can start looking at the broaching fixture that CNR suggested - makes sense to do that work before trimming down the back ends of the blocks for the final crankshaft bay walls.

As a reminder, here is where all this work is going - so far very happy with how the parts are looking, thanks to all of you for the support!
(https://i.postimg.cc/V6CQCB5Z/Slew_Engine.png)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on February 22, 2019, 07:54:14 PM
Hi Chris,  Glad you liked the concept.

-for the cutter, O-1 or W or A2 tool steels will all work fine. Heat to bright red, quench in clean oil for O-1, stirred up water for W steels, air quench per manufacturer for A steels. You could temper back a bit but I would not bother. If you have a surface grinder, HSS as used for lathe tools would be ideal for the cutter, ground to shape hard as supplied.

-a heavy Sears or Home Despot style bench or floor drill press with a good distance between chuck and table would be best. You will be exerting a good force to cut with the broach, so a light duty machine is not recommended.

-I also would not recommend an arbour press - a) they don't have a chuck (usually) and a chuck will be helpful to control the broach b) you will need a pretty hefty large arbour press to get the open height you need for this relatively tall setup. Unless you have other heavy press or broaching jobs for this large arbour press I would not go that way.

-if you want to post a few pics of the rig here, no problem. Wouldn't like the CAD step files sent anywhere else though.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 22, 2019, 07:57:55 PM
Hi Chris,  Glad you liked the concept.

-for the cutter, O-1 or W or A2 tool steels will all work fine. Heat to bright red, quench in clean oil for O-1, stirred up water for W steels, air quench per manufacturer for A steels. You could temper back a bit but I would not bother. If you have a surface grinder, HSS as used for lathe tools would be ideal for the cutter, ground to shape hard as supplied.

-a heavy Sears or Home Despot style bench or floor drill press with a good distance between chuck and table would be best. You will be exerting a good force to cut with the broach, so a light duty machine is not recommended.

-I also would not recommend an arbour press - a) they don't have a chuck (usually) and a chuck will be helpful to control the broach b) you will need a pretty hefty large arbour press to get the open height you need for this relatively tall setup. Unless you have other heavy press or broaching jobs for this large arbour press I would not go that way.

-if you want to post a few pics of the rig here, no problem. Wouldn't like the CAD step files sent anywhere else though.
Will do on all counts, stay tuned on how it works!   :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on February 22, 2019, 10:06:59 PM
Damn Dog I am at awe that is some Machining  :praise2:

 :popcorn:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gbritnell on February 23, 2019, 12:34:48 PM
Chris,
I have to applaud you, not just for the work you are doing but with the equipment you are using.
I recall so many times people complaining about round column mills but that's what I used for years.
When I see what you are creating with your little mill I am truly impressed. Keep up the great work!
gbritnell
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: fumopuc on February 23, 2019, 08:17:40 PM
Hi Chris,
again very impressive.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 23, 2019, 08:27:46 PM
Thanks guys! I am spending a little time filing/sanding on the parts to clean up the tool marks, and also am starting to make up the broaching tool that CNR suggested to me, stay tuned on all that for more details...

I've also gotten a rifle stock commision from one of the guys in my club, so that will be another diversion this week.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 24, 2019, 05:03:15 PM
Gotten a bunch of work done on filing/sanding the crosshead guides, they are looking better, still want to do more on them.

Also, have been collaborating with CNR on a design for a nifty broaching cuide for doing those recesses next to the guide tubes for the eccentric follower arms. I took his drawings (done very well) and modified them a bit so I could use the bar stock I happen to have on hand. Here is what I have so far - it may look like a little overkill for a holding frame, but I have a bunch of the 3/8"x1.5" bar left over from making the track plates, so I used that. The surrounding box is made, to let me clamp the jig into the vise on the drill press, and there are locating screws through the top plate into the holes for the cylinder cap. Next to do is to drill/mill the openings in both top and bottom plates of the box, shown by the blue lines, where the broach will go through and through the guide tubes. There will also be another block across that opening for the adjusting screws - will show all that as it is made...
(https://i.postimg.cc/0QSxHFvN/IMG-4571.jpg)
The goal of all this is to have a gude that will take a broaching tool with a protruding rectangular cutter to make the recesses on both sides inside the guide tubes.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on February 24, 2019, 05:15:35 PM
Hi Chris, the broaching frame looks great so far!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Nothing wrong with heavy duty / overkill construction when it comes to tooling, in my experience. :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on February 24, 2019, 06:07:15 PM
Hi Chris, I forgot to ask you about your " league shoot " you mentioned the other day.

Did you bag any leagues? What's your local limit?

They must have gone extinct local to me, I've never heard of anyone getting one. Ducks, deer, turkey, sure, but no leagues.  :paranoia: :Jester:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 24, 2019, 07:49:43 PM
Hi Chris, I forgot to ask you about your " league shoot " you mentioned the other day.

Did you bag any leagues? What's your local limit?

They must have gone extinct local to me, I've never heard of anyone getting one. Ducks, deer, turkey, sure, but no leagues.  :paranoia: :Jester:
:Lol:
All those animals may show up at the parties (on plates) but this was pistol league. Had a great night, on the target portion got a 291 out of 300 (high round of 98), so happy with that. Shot well in the head to head speed rounds too, we have racks of steel plates (about 3-1/2" diameter at 50') that are hinged at the base for the speed rounds. Lotsa fun. For this time of year its just .22 on the indoor range, for the summer we go outside with the bigger calibers. This is just a fun club league, nothing too serious or super competitive, all skill ranges represented.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 24, 2019, 07:57:04 PM
Some more done on the broaching jig, got the slots cut in the ends (centered on the crosshead bores, same width as what the cutter bar will be) and made/installed the adjusting screw holders on the ends. The long slots allow it to work for both bores, just need to turn the adjusting screws around. The screws will advance the cutter bar between strokes. Here are front and rear views so far:
(https://i.postimg.cc/4yDGGT6M/IMG-4572.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/wxZgLDCV/IMG-4573.jpg)

Next up will be to make the cutter and the carrier bar. Probably start that tomorrow, the wind storm they have been yammering about on the weather reports is finally moving in, they are predicting that we will get about 12 hours of 40mph winds with frequent gusts up to 75mph. Fortunately its been warm (till the wind hit) so the snowpack is gone, and all the trees/wires are clear of snow and ice. Going to be a crapshoot on which neighborhoods lose power. Glad there is not a big snow mixed in to this, or it would be a major blizzard, like those pics from 1978 the other day. But, I'd rather not be using the machines if the power might cut out, so good time to go read for a while (tell spooky stories with the shop elves, fun to see their little eyes bug out before they dive behind the coach).
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 24, 2019, 10:43:43 PM
Well, the wind storm so far is just so much weatherman hot air, 20mph with 30 gusts, big deal. So far anyway...

So, a little more shop time this afternoon after watching some TV. Got the carrier bar for the cutter made, a length of 3/8" wide flat bar, turned to 1/4" at one end and press/hammer fit into a hole in a 1/2" round bar to grip in the chuck with.

(https://i.postimg.cc/sgG4y32V/IMG-4574.jpg)

I think the only part left is the actual cutter block to mount on the bar. I was going to make some stand-off legs for underneath the main block, but there are slots next to the screw on the drill press vise that the cutter bar can drop down through, so I can just put the frame block fully into the vise without any legs. So far so good! If it works, CNR gets the credit. If it fails, I goofed something! 

(https://i.postimg.cc/DzVdwRW1/IMG-4575.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on February 25, 2019, 02:19:27 AM
Well, Chris, and CRN, I'm quite intrigued to see the whole mechanism in operation!  Looks pretty cool for sure.

Will there be any explosions?  :Lol:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 25, 2019, 02:25:28 AM
Well, Chris, and CRN, I'm quite intrigued to see the whole mechanism in operation!  Looks pretty cool for sure.

Will there be any explosions?  :Lol:

Kim
No explosions unless I plug the framistat in backwards...  Or is that forwards...   :thinking:


 :Lol:


Should have it in action in another day, pics to follow.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on February 25, 2019, 03:55:20 AM
Don't you mean if you put the gonkulator in upside down Chris?  :zap:

The framistat should pre-modulate the teraHertz field just fine backwards or forwards.  :insane: :Lol:

Just kidding - great progress! :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on February 25, 2019, 04:00:36 AM
Hi Chris, re your "league shoot" - does sound like a fun event at a great club. Thanks for the description.

Fried baloney with onions is probably tastier than roast league anyway...... :facepalm: :naughty:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 25, 2019, 02:07:48 PM
Don't you mean if you put the gonkulator in upside down Chris?  :zap:

The framistat should pre-modulate the teraHertz field just fine backwards or forwards.  :insane: :Lol:

Just kidding - great progress! :ThumbsUp:
Only if the gronicle is bronze vs steel...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on February 25, 2019, 02:16:18 PM
I'd forgotten about the gronicle material!  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 25, 2019, 06:12:53 PM
Okay, got the (first) cutter made and mounted to the bar, and ran some tests.
The cutter teeth were shaped in with a dovetail cutter, with the mill head tipped 4 or 5 degrees to give some relief to the back of the teeth.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zXTkq44K/IMG-4581.jpg)
On the left side of the block you can see the remnants of some earlier experiments with other cutters. That section was cut off, and the are behind the highest tooth taken down in the area where the screw holes are. The cutter bar itself was also drilled for the screws, and the back side recessed so the heads would sit below the surface.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3x7FNnH6/IMG-4583.jpg)
The cutter block sits in a shallow recess of its own, so that the screws dont take the shear strain of cutting by themselves. Here is the recess on the back for the screw heads:
(https://i.postimg.cc/k5gNFGGv/IMG-4584.jpg)
And the whole thing up on the drill press for testing:
(https://i.postimg.cc/6p0LvnWQ/IMG-4586.jpg)
So, results: The bar that I picked for the cutter wound up not hardening that well, I thought it was some O1 or W1 steel, but now it appears to be some common mild steel - it did harden, but not that well, and the cutting action took the teeth down almost as fast as it went into the 1144 part. I've done some digging in the stock racks, and think I've found the proper bar I was looking for, will remake the cutter head and try again.Also, there was a bit of flex in the cutter holder bar, not surprising given its so far between the screws on the jig. It still would give pressure for the cut, so I think that will be okay. The holding bar is as thick as it can be and still fit into the bore, the most I could do would be to make a new one out of a length of round bar, so it would gain thickness behind the cutter, but it would be a very small change. If it turns out to be a problem, which I doubt, another adjustable support in the crankshaft bay could always be added. This is a rather different part to broach from normal, where the area to be cut is right at the bore, and is supported by the bore, the area being cut is more than an inch from any support.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on February 25, 2019, 06:21:48 PM
Great first try Chris! Setup looks great. You do need a sharp, hard broach - you are on the right track to find some tool steel in your rack for the cutter. The harder and sharper it is, the less bar deflection you will have. Don't forget to spread on some good cutting oil. Standing by for test 2!  :ThumbsUp::ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

PS Did you have the Finkleburg particle turblicator engaged?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 25, 2019, 06:27:39 PM
Great first try Chris! Setup looks great. You do need a sharp, hard broach - you are on the right track to find some tool steel in your rack for the cutter. The harder and sharper it is, the less bar deflection you will have. Don't forget to spread on some good cutting oil. Standing by for test 2!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
It did cut as desired, just wore the cutter out too quick. I was suspicious after the heat/quench, since it only partly skated the file, but figured that I was far enough along to go ahead and test the system before remaking the cutter. Going to cut a bit off the new bar and test harden it first this time. I do have some HSS 1/4" lathe blanks, but they are such a pain to cut and grind in small teeth that I am not using them.

PS Did you have the Finkleburg particle turblicator engaged?
Well, of course not! I'm east of the Mississipi and its winter!   :slap:
 :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on February 25, 2019, 06:41:42 PM
Pretty cool little setup there Chris!
Can't wait to see the results when you have a better cutter!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 25, 2019, 07:58:16 PM
Found and tested the right bar, file skates like glass after hardening so this should work much better. New cutter has teeth cut, about to drill mount holes...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on February 25, 2019, 08:18:44 PM
Quote from: cnr6400 on Today at 06:21:48 PM
Great first try Chris! Setup looks great. You do need a sharp, hard broach - you are on the right track to find some tool steel in your rack for the cutter. The harder and sharper it is, the less bar deflection you will have. Don't forget to spread on some good cutting oil. Standing by for test 2!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
It did cut as desired, just wore the cutter out too quick. I was suspicious after the heat/quench, since it only partly skated the file, but figured that I was far enough along to go ahead and test the system before remaking the cutter. Going to cut a bit off the new bar and test harden it first this time. I do have some HSS 1/4" lathe blanks, but they are such a pain to cut and grind in small teeth that I am not using them.

Quote from: cnr6400 on Today at 06:21:48 PM
PS Did you have the Finkleburg particle turblicator engaged?
Well, of course not! I'm east of the Mississipi and its winter!   :slap:

Doh! I forgot both those things!  :Jester:

Look forward to the results of tests with the new cutter.  :whoohoo: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 25, 2019, 09:37:11 PM
Okay, some good forward progress!

This afternoon I remade the cutter head (as usual, second one went much quicker than the first) from the proper steel:
(https://i.postimg.cc/tgwSmWLz/IMG-4587.jpg)
Started with some 1/2" round bar, squared up the sides in the mill, holding it in a collet block. Then tipped the mill head about 5 degrees, and cut the teeth with the dovetail cutter, 0.0025" height and 0.060" in for each tooth, coming in from the sides only otherwise the low end would take off the business end of the tooth. Drilled the mount holes, tapped them, and cut it to length for heat treat with the torch.
(https://i.postimg.cc/PxD3GNHn/IMG-4588.jpg)
File skates right off, nice and hard. As Pete would say (I think its him), harder than woodpecker lips!

Put it all together, took it to the drill press, and it does cut decently now, taking off very fine shavings - have to stop and wipe out/re-oil the teeth occasionally. After a lot of passes, the teeth are still sharp, no wear on them.   :whoohoo:

Now, couple of things that I do want to change before going on to cutting the full recesses. One is something CNR told me to do and I didn't - put a brass wear bar in between the adjusting screws and the long cutter bar. I thought the screws were flat/smooth enough not to dig in, given such slow movement, but the forces are high enough to start digging in to the back of the bar. So, will do as he spec'ed (as I should have the first time, but learning comes better with bad experience) and make a little brass section, can put a shallow hole in the back to hold it on the end of the screw.
Second thing is that there is just too much flex in the bar, given that the adjusting screws are at the extreme ends of the engine block. So, I am going to take off the bottom bar with the bottom screw, and make one that goes across the crankshaft bay and reaches down in to the back of the cutter bar, so that it is pushing from right near the middle of the length of the recess - that should do two things: eliminate all flex in the cutter bar, which was angling the cutter head and making for less force on the cut, and also will put the adjusting screw up above the vise holding the jig so that I dont have to keep removing it from the vise to adjust it. The jig needs to be held in the vise, to give something to pull against when starting back up on the cutter - right at the end of the cut, since it is a blind end to the hole, there is still pressure on the cutter so there is resistance to the return stroke right at first.

Bottom line - CNR's ideas/design are holding up well, just a few tweaks I made to it to use the materials and tools I have. So far looks like it will do the job - looking back to the way I started the recesses with the carbide cylinder cutter on the mill, I think that was still a good way to go since it removed the large bulk of the material.

Stay tuned, more to come on this over the next day or so!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on February 25, 2019, 10:19:47 PM
 :whoohoo: :ThumbsUp:
Glad to hear you are making some headway Chris.

Some comments in blue below, in your text.

Put it all together, took it to the drill press, and it does cut decently now, taking off very fine shavings - have to stop and wipe out/re-oil the teeth occasionally. After a lot of passes, the teeth are still sharp, no wear on them.   :whoohoo:

Now, couple of things that I do want to change before going on to cutting the full recesses. One is something CNR told me to do and I didn't - put a brass wear bar in between the adjusting screws and the long cutter bar. I thought the screws were flat/smooth enough not to dig in, given such slow movement, but the forces are high enough to start digging in to the back of the bar. So, will do as he spec'ed (as I should have the first time, but learning comes better with bad experience) and make a little brass section, can put a shallow hole in the back to hold it on the end of the screw.  CNR6400- It was worth a try to do it without the brass bits I think - it had a chance of working and if it had, you would save a bit of work. You may also have had better luck with wear on the bar if it could be made in tool steel also - and less flex - but I didn't know if you had any that size, or if it were needed, and hardening it without warp would be a challenge.
Second thing is that there is just too much flex in the bar, given that the adjusting screws are at the extreme ends of the engine block. So, I am going to take off the bottom bar with the bottom screw, and make one that goes across the crankshaft bay and reaches down in to the back of the cutter bar, so that it is pushing from right near the middle of the length of the recess - that should do two things: eliminate all flex in the cutter bar, which was angling the cutter head and making for less force on the cut, and also will put the adjusting screw up above the vise holding the jig so that I dont have to keep removing it from the vise to adjust it. The jig needs to be held in the vise, to give something to pull against when starting back up on the cutter - right at the end of the cut, since it is a blind end to the hole, there is still pressure on the cutter so there is resistance to the return stroke right at first. CNR6400-This sounds like a great idea Chris. Getting the support closer to the cut will make a big difference. 

Bottom line - CNR's ideas/design are holding up well, just a few tweaks I made to it to use the materials and tools I have. So far looks like it will do the job - looking back to the way I started the recesses with the carbide cylinder cutter on the mill, I think that was still a good way to go since it removed the large bulk of the material. CNR6400 - I think you are right - a short stroke blind broach with only a few teeth is not a high speed cutting method (but probably the only mechanical method, I think, in this case, with the space avaiable!)  The more material out before broaching, the better. Even if the elves had made a field trip here to do the recesses by EDM, I'd recommend getting as much material out beforehand as possible. Of course by not having the elves drop over, we spared them learning the pitfalls of pleasure boating in my dielectric oil bath next to a live copper electrode! :zap:    :whoohoo: :cheers:

Stay tuned, more to come on this over the next day or so! CNR6400 - Look forward to hearing about it!  :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 25, 2019, 10:25:30 PM
CNR -  Didn't have any tool steel for the long bar that size - have O1 in roundbar, but it would be a lot of time to square up that long a section of it. I think the relocated guide will do the trick. Thanks for all your tips!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 26, 2019, 06:42:39 PM
Busy morning, got the rest of the mods done to the broaching jig. First removed the original bottom adjusting bar. Then took another piece of the bar stock that the outer frame was made of, and cut it down to make the new cross bar, and added a brass shoe to the side that the cutter bar rubs on:
(https://i.postimg.cc/3wTgXGY6/IMG-4590.jpg)
The slots in the guide allow it to be moved into the cut by the screw on the side. Also added a brass shoe to the top adjusting screw, making a slot for it to retract into to allow the cutter to pass into the bore. When doing the other bore, both guides will be turned around to face the other way.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FKV0DKKK/IMG-4591.jpg)
Lastly, ground back the upper end of the cutter head where the screws are, to give better clearance to the upper flange of the engine block at the top of the stroke.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vB8fjd1t/IMG-4592.jpg)
So, the jig is ready to go for another test cut. But, thats enough shop time for a while, time for a break. I have another archery session tonight, and want to be rested for that. More later!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on February 26, 2019, 07:25:40 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Have a great time at the archery session Chris!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 27, 2019, 03:33:50 PM
And we have liftoff! The new push bar works like a charm!
 :pinkelephant: :whoohoo: :cartwheel:
This morning I got the modified broaching jig set up in the drill press and gave it a try. Moving the lower guide up to the middle of the crankshaft bay got rid of the flex in the bar, so it would put proper pressure on the cutter head. It took some experimentation to learn how much to move the top/bottom adjusting screws (not much, and after several strokes at each setting - moved the bottom one more often than the top but kept things vertical overall). I put some grease on the back of the cutter bar where it rides on the brass guides, and stopped frequently to brush off the chips and add more oil to the cutter head. The chips were more of a fine slurry in the oil, very fine cuttings which makes sense given how shallow the cutter teeth are. The first slot is completely cut, and the cutter seems to still be plenty sharp.

Here are some pictures of the setup:
(https://i.postimg.cc/6QKSr5WY/IMG-4594.jpg)
I set the depth stop on the drill press so that the cutter stopped just before coming out of the bore, so that it would not catch on the return stroke. Closeup of the new guide bar in place:
(https://i.postimg.cc/d1Hxc28x/IMG-4595.jpg)
The screws in the slots on the guide bar are just slightly loose, so that the bar can move when the screw on the left side is tightened. After several strokes, the side screw was run in another fraction of a turn - could go by feel, tightened more when the cutter moved more freely, if it bound up I'd loosen it some.You can just see the slurry of chips/oil at the top of the cut, kept brushing that off and adding another bit of oil.
(https://i.postimg.cc/PJ0VPdVb/IMG-4598.jpg)
Some pictures of the completed cut, will need a good wash off after the second side is done to clean off all the oil and particles:
(https://i.postimg.cc/d3hSsh6t/IMG-4600.jpg)
Looking down the bore:
(https://i.postimg.cc/R0TYX5q9/IMG-4601.jpg)
The two blobs on the right side of the recess cut are the bottom ends of the holes for the side bearing blocks, need to blow the chips out of those too.
And looking from the back - the last marks from the cut from the cylinder shaped milling tool are still visible, on this one I went a little deep with the milling tool. It does show how the broach teeth cut though, since they are stepped, the sides next to the round cut are tapered slightly.

(https://i.postimg.cc/tTCMcSV6/IMG-4603.jpg)
Very happy with how this is going - owe a big thank you (and a bag of cookies) to CNR for all his help on this!!   :praise2:

Heading off to lunch with several of my old co-workers from the Kodak days, will start in on the next cut later in the day.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on February 27, 2019, 04:52:41 PM
That’s cool Dog and I bet your happier then a bear in a hive full of honey....... :ThumbsUp:



 :popcorn:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 27, 2019, 08:31:31 PM
That’s cool Dog and I bet your happier then a bear in a hive full of honey....... :ThumbsUp:



 :popcorn:
Don
Yup - Winnie The Pooh with his head in the honey jar!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on February 27, 2019, 08:49:56 PM
Great result Chris!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: My pleasure to help a little bit with this great model you are making. 5 more recess cuts to go? Standing by! :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Hope they served Kolbassa, Kosher dills, Kale and Krispy Kreme donuts at your lunch with the colleagues from the K company........ :naughty:

We only get X pired pizza, water - X tended soup, X Tim Horton stale donuts,  and probably stray X rays when I go with my ex X colleagues for lunch.  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on February 27, 2019, 09:34:03 PM
Very slick, Chris! :)
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 27, 2019, 11:40:57 PM
Great result Chris!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: My pleasure to help a little bit with this great model you are making. 5 more recess cuts to go? Standing by! :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Hope they served Kolbassa, Kosher dills, Kale and Krispy Kreme donuts at your lunch with the colleagues from the K company........ :naughty:

We only get X pired pizza, water - X tended soup, X Tim Horton stale donuts,  and probably stray X rays when I go with my ex X colleagues for lunch.  :facepalm:


(Urp! )  Glad I went with the fried haddock...




Yup, 5 more recesses to go, no more today, had to take my mother over for new glasses, by then the snow was here and it took 4x normal time to get home.


A number of my old colleagues from Kodak went over to Xerox, till they imploded too. Same with Boush and Lomb, now the two biggest employers here are the local university and the grocery chain. Huge difference from when I grew up! The main Kodak manufacturing park was 7 miles long, own power, water, railroad... All gone now.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 27, 2019, 11:41:59 PM
Very slick, Chris! :)
Kim
Thanks Kim, very cool to make a tool then use it, while learning new techniques. Love it!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 28, 2019, 03:47:57 PM
Today is turning into a shop day, cold and snowy out, good day to stay in. Got the left recess cut on the second engine block this morning, getting the hang of the adjustments needed to the tension screws as it cuts, took about 25 minutes to do this one. I am glad that I did use the cylindrical cutter first, can really feel the difference in the force needed as it gets down to the full width cut, should go find some slot-machine addict to stand there and pull the handle on the drill press for me - its tiring!
(https://i.postimg.cc/sfNzTJWq/IMG-4604.jpg)
Two recesses down, four to go...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 28, 2019, 05:21:11 PM
After lunch got the left side of the third one done, so halfway there. Each one goes quicker as I learn how much to advance the screws to keep the proper cutting angle.
(https://i.postimg.cc/25Xp0492/IMG-4605.jpg)
So, with the left sides all done, I swapped the top and bottom guides around, ready to do the right sides on each one:
(https://i.postimg.cc/9M46KrvV/IMG-4607.jpg)
Probably have those done later today, this tool is working out great!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 28, 2019, 08:42:20 PM
And all three have both recesses done!
 :cartwheel:
(https://i.postimg.cc/htSrZvYY/IMG-4609.jpg)
Thanks again for all the help!   :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

Whats next? Um, gotta go look at the plans, I think I can start working on the rear section around the crankshaft bay now.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on February 28, 2019, 08:48:41 PM
i just love it when metal carving goes good. A real piece of work Chris I applaud you...... :praise2:
Just waiting for the next episode of “Chris the metal carver and his cookie eating assistances!”... :lolb:
Oh by the way did I say .........I.........like..........  :Love:

 :popcorn:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 28, 2019, 08:49:54 PM
...
Just waiting for the next episode of “Chris the metal carver and his cookie eating assistances!”... :lolb:
...
Soon to be a minor motion picture, not in any theatre near you!   :ROFL:

Thanks Don!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on February 28, 2019, 09:41:01 PM
...

Whats next? Um, gotta go look at the plans, I think I can start working on the rear section around the crankshaft bay now.
Nope, need to fit and drill the valve cross rod bearing caps first!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on March 01, 2019, 01:41:00 AM
That's great Chris, glad all the recesses turned out well.  :whoohoo:  :cheers: Most welcome re the help.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

I'd recommend chaining up your broach tooling to something solid now though, so the shop elves don't get the idea of peddling it up the road to the Billings Brothers Big Bodied Bottoming Broach Co. or some other firm like that, to make egg nog money!  :naughty:

Staying tuned for next progress report.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 01, 2019, 01:59:41 AM
That's great Chris, glad all the recesses turned out well.  :whoohoo: :cheers: Most welcome re the help.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

I'd recommend chaining up your broach tooling to something solid now though, so the shop elves don't get the idea of peddling it up the road to the Billings Brothers Big Bodied Bottoming Broach Co. or some other firm like that, to make egg nog money!  :naughty:

Staying tuned for next progress report.  :popcorn:
I've gotten their ebay account revoked, but I forgot about the local BBBBBBco store!   :Lol:   


 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 01, 2019, 05:35:32 PM
This morning I was doing some cleanup work on the engine blocks, cutting some of the slots between features on the top surface and tapping holes, when I noticed how clear and sunny it was outside. Just had to take a drive over and see how the Marion shovel looked with the new snow we got this week. Here are a few pictures:
(https://i.postimg.cc/WbpCDych/DSC-8362a.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/gjs7SV8z/DSC-8329a.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/zGVQ7RBN/DSC-8395a.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/8Py3LbTw/DSC-8377a.jpg)

Neat how the icicles looked out the bottom of the bucket...
(https://i.postimg.cc/jq4BSb9p/DSC-8396a.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 01, 2019, 11:13:43 PM
Got a start on the bearing caps for the valve cross rods - started by chain drilling some square bar,
(https://i.postimg.cc/bvGD8n03/IMG-4619.jpg)
and then cutting them apart to bolt to the crosshead top surface for drilling:
(https://i.postimg.cc/fLcbTfVj/IMG-4620a.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on March 01, 2019, 11:24:13 PM
BAD PUN ALERT                     BAD PUN ALERT               BAD PUN ALERT

Looks like you had some cap acity today!  :lolb:

They look great Chris!  :popcorn: really enjoyed the blue sky and snow pics of the full size shovel too. Thanks for posting them!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 01, 2019, 11:34:08 PM
BAD PUN ALERT                     BAD PUN ALERT               BAD PUN ALERT

Looks like you had some cap acity today!  :lolb:

They look great Chris!  :popcorn: really enjoyed the blue sky and snow pics of the full size shovel too. Thanks for posting them!
Okay, you asked for it (although this one will probably get stuck in Zee's head instead). Traded some emails with Terry from the Maine logging museum, he started out with a far north/snow reference, and all I could think of was Red Green...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXR1zClTwkQ
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on March 02, 2019, 04:58:53 AM
"how the Marion shovel looked with the new snow"

Beautifully stark against the backdrop    :DrinkPint:

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jo on March 02, 2019, 07:49:16 AM
Those icicles reminded me a bit of the way your DOG drawls as you have just shot a rabbit and it is sitting there trying to show paitence knowing you are about to gut/skin it and it is in for the fresh "spare bits"   :facepalm2:

Jo
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steam Haulage on March 02, 2019, 08:14:47 AM
Really good views of the shovel in the snow. Only thing which would have improved them was a curl of steam, and smoke from the chimney.

But hey-ho you can't have everything.

Just think of working in those conditions.

Jerry  :happyreader:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on March 02, 2019, 11:42:22 AM
Hello everyone,

I agree with what Steam Haulage said, sure wish someone or group would take the time and money to restore that beautiful old piece of history.

Maybe Chris will do that after his current project????

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 02, 2019, 12:54:12 PM
Hello everyone,

I agree with what Steam Haulage said, sure wish someone or group would take the time and money to restore that beautiful old piece of history.

Maybe Chris will do that after his current project????

Have a great day,
Thomas
I've volunteered for any work on it, just waiting for your big donation check...   :Lol:   


Being a registered landmark is good and bad, its protected but being owned by a small town means little money. They are working on grants, but thats always slow. Never a friendly billionaire around when you need one...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 02, 2019, 12:55:46 PM
Really good views of the shovel in the snow. Only thing which would have improved them was a curl of steam, and smoke from the chimney.

But hey-ho you can't have everything.

Just think of working in those conditions.

Jerry  :happyreader:
Just like with the Lombard, nice and warm for the guys at the back of the boiler, freezing cold for the guys up front!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 02, 2019, 12:57:01 PM
Those icicles reminded me a bit of the way your DOG drawls as you have just shot a rabbit and it is sitting there trying to show paitence knowing you are about to gut/skin it and it is in for the fresh "spare bits"   :facepalm2:

Jo


DOG:  yeah, drop that part, come on, drop it, you don't want it, drop that!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on March 02, 2019, 02:01:15 PM
Are we sure those icicles aren't actually holding up the dipper and bucket?  :thinking: :Lol:

Had a truck once that was so shot with rust the big icicles in the corners were holding up the bed over its' last winter. In the spring it converted itself to a low rider, complete with sparks..... :shrug:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 02, 2019, 02:26:19 PM
Are we sure those icicles aren't actually holding up the dipper and bucket?  :thinking: :Lol:

Had a truck once that was so shot with rust the big icicles in the corners were holding up the bed over its' last winter. In the spring it converted itself to a low rider, complete with sparks..... :shrug:
Titanium infused ice?   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on March 02, 2019, 04:42:04 PM
Hello everyone,

I agree with what Steam Haulage said, sure wish someone or group would take the time and money to restore that beautiful old piece of history.

Maybe Chris will do that after his current project????

Have a great day,
Thomas
I've volunteered for any work on it, just waiting for your big donation check...   :Lol:   


Being a registered landmark is good and bad, its protected but being owned by a small town means little money. They are working on grants, but thats always slow. Never a friendly billionaire around when you need one...


Hello Chris,

You need to write a letter to Warren Buffett and explain the situation, who knows he might like the idea and sponsor the whole project.

Good luck and have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on March 02, 2019, 06:57:06 PM
Hi Chris, re the titanium-infused icicles, maybe, but there was plenty of Detroit iron dragging on the road so didn't really need to have titanium drag plates to make a spark show...... ::)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 02, 2019, 07:56:08 PM
Not much done so far in the shop today, got the holes drilled for the valve cross rod bearings:
(https://i.postimg.cc/pVYgR85P/IMG-4622.jpg)
then the shop vac gave up for good finally - wound up taking the motor head apart to diagnose, think its the switch unit, but finding the exact replacement size/poles for a proprietary switch (when it is not working so you cant find out what combination it is) was not worth the effort, so went and got a replacement for that, need to make up a new mount for the cyclone separator unit on the side and that will chew up the afternoon... So, lots accomplished: drilled 3 whole holes!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on March 03, 2019, 12:59:53 AM
Well Dog look at this way it’s a step forward and a new episode and the saga continues in the life of “ Chris the metal carver and his cookie eating assistances!”..... :lolb:



 :popcorn:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 03, 2019, 04:37:27 PM
Thanks Don!

This morning I got the bearing caps milled to shape, was about to put up those pics but my image host appears to have a hangover and is going REALLY slow, so I'll wait till later and hope it takes some asprin... In the meantime, it will take a while for pics to show up on this thread.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 03, 2019, 05:07:08 PM
Got the bearing caps shaped down this morning, first taking the sides down, then using the center hole as a guide over some thin rod to mill the top surface:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZKJMn4Ck/IMG-4625.jpg)
All 9 caps done, I think its time to cut the rear walls down to final shape:
(https://i.postimg.cc/FRcBdKyv/IMG-4627.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 03, 2019, 08:04:32 PM
Coming down the home stretch on the crosshead guide block - with the bearing caps for the valves done, finally time to cut off the excess on the back walls that I left for holding/aligning the parts in the mill vise. Started by sawing off the bulk of the material:
(https://i.postimg.cc/257XY5fX/IMG-4628.jpg)
The offcuts look like pieces to those 3D puzzles...
Then milled the top of the back wall to height:
(https://i.postimg.cc/d3LWGmZz/IMG-4629.jpg)
One thing I could not do till now was to take a small end mill to the back corners, since the mill would not reach down past the walls when full height.
(https://i.postimg.cc/85kXzVpk/IMG-4630.jpg)
And set the part in the vise at 45 degrees to mill the slope up to the top:
(https://i.postimg.cc/vBPq1STr/IMG-4631.jpg)
Then set it at a slight angle to blend the top of the wall down to the top of the 45 degree slope. This is one of those places where measuring the angles was not easy to do, so I just adjusted it till the height of the top of the wall matched the height of the end of the 45 at the sides.
(https://i.postimg.cc/T24NfSZG/IMG-4632.jpg)
And the last milling step was to cut the notches for the bearing caps. The screw flanges will be out at the ends of the 45 degree area, but the center of the caps project down farther to meet the center of the crankshaft. Doing it this way let them keep the engine smaller but keep a large area for the caps, and also gives some more lateral resistance to the caps. The center of the crankshaft will be where that long blue line meets the bottom of the notch. The caps will be made and screwed on, then the hole for the bearing bored out.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sxqTmQp1/IMG-4633.jpg)
All three are up to the point of cutting the notch, one of the three has the notch done.

(https://i.postimg.cc/654j3cXZ/IMG-4634.jpg)
Great progress today, but good time to break - have one of our monthly RC submarine runs at the pool tonight, need to prep the sub for that.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on March 03, 2019, 08:21:58 PM
Great progress Chris, engine frames look great.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Have fun at the sub run at the pool. I've been to a few sub runs myself but they usually just resulted in a large sandwich...... :Lol:

Nothing done the past few days in my shop - had a cracked wisdom tooth extracted Friday. Horrific experience unfortunately, felt like  :hammerbash: and have felt awful since. Pain killer pills make me woozy too so I don't want to be operating power tools. I hope to get off the pain pills tomorrow- I'll probably feel better just by doing that.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 03, 2019, 08:24:42 PM
Great progress Chris, engine frames look great.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Have fun at the sub run at the pool. I've been to a few sub runs myself but they usually just resulted in a large sandwich...... :Lol:

Nothing done the past few days in my shop - had a cracked wisdom tooth extracted Friday. Horrific experience unfortunately, felt like  :hammerbash: and have felt awful since. Pain killer pills make me woozy too so I don't want to be operating power tools. I hope to get off the pain pills tomorrow- I'll probably feel better just by doing that.
Ouch!  better be careful with the popcorn till it heals up, soak it in beer first!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 03, 2019, 10:21:50 PM
All three have the bearing block notches cut now:
(https://i.postimg.cc/CxJTSJYg/IMG-4635.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/XvJMJF7y/IMG-4636.jpg)
Just cut the blanks for the caps from some 3/8" square bar, tomorrow can start shaping those...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 03, 2019, 10:29:50 PM
I saw that business about the Red Green show.  :cussing: I did enjoy that show. Haven't seen it for years.

Looking at the last several/many/plethora of posts it's almost like you're working on another project! Sort of is I guess.
But I know that Stanley Steamer is calling you.  ;D

I've not done any machining for a while. A few distractions, some scares, and some trips with T.
Main issue now is a right arm that I can't lift above my shoulder. That makes using the mill a right pain.  ;D
Hopefully seeing a doctor tomorrow to get a script for physical therapy. But we're expecting 5-8" of snow tonight. Sigh.

BTW Have you noticed any new elves around your parts? No? Great. He's a good one.
But I'll give you a hint. He's a doppelganger. One of your elves is not who you think it is. Hee hee.

Your work is always inspirational.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 03, 2019, 10:50:25 PM
I saw that business about the Red Green show.  :cussing: I did enjoy that show. Haven't seen it for years.

Looking at the last several/many/plethora of posts it's almost like you're working on another project! Sort of is I guess.
But I know that Stanley Steamer is calling you.  ;D

I've not done any machining for a while. A few distractions, some scares, and some trips with T.
Main issue now is a right arm that I can't lift above my shoulder. That makes using the mill a right pain.  ;D
Hopefully seeing a doctor tomorrow to get a script for physical therapy. But we're expecting 5-8" of snow tonight. Sigh.

BTW Have you noticed any new elves around your parts? No? Great. He's a good one.
But I'll give you a hint. He's a doppelganger. One of your elves is not who you think it is. Hee hee.

Your work is always inspirational.
Evil.
Pure evil.
I like that!
But, all you did was return my double-agent-elf, agent .007! Muhahaha!!! :Lol:

Hope your arm gets better soon, I went through an episode with the thumb/wrist last year, not fun. They were able to fix mine with a cortisone cocktail in the wrist, plus tincture of time. Yours sounds more like a rotator cuff issue, also fixable unless it is torn too far, then it needs minor surgery, but its something they do a lot of these days and they are good at it.


I got a copy of the Stanley engine plans in Fusion recently, including the un-produced version with spool valves rather than d-valves, very interesting. However, I have been looking at the details of that engine block, and am not sure how to make it yet. The engine is a twin cylinder, with the steam chests in between the cylinders. Actually, it is one shared steam chest, with the two port faces parallel to each other, with just a round portal into the chest. That means the ports cannot be machined/drilled as normal, since with one port face facing upwards, the other one is above it facing down, no way to get in to drill...    :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch:   or lap the faces, or anything...   :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch:   
Only thing I can think of is to split the two halves apart and have them bolt together somehow, but then the engine would need a bolt flange or something in the middle, which would ruin the look. Puzzling over that one in the backgound... While continuing on to the Marion build, that is!
 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Captain Jerry on March 04, 2019, 12:52:10 PM
Chris,


I continue to watch with great interest.  Lots of well documented processes to get this thing to shape.  I was surprised to see that you used a saw to cut that angled face and didn't show the process.  I use a saw frequently because it can quickly remove a big chunk of metal but I am wary of angled cuts like this one. The first contact with the angled face can cause the blade to deflect and make a lot of problems.


Am I just over thinking this and worrying for nothing or did you take steps to prevent that?  What kind of blade did you use and what kind of holder?


Jerry
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 04, 2019, 01:04:38 PM
Chris,


I continue to watch with great interest.  Lots of well documented processes to get this thing to shape.  I was surprised to see that you used a saw to cut that angled face and didn't show the process.  I use a saw frequently because it can quickly remove a big chunk of metal but I am wary of angled cuts like this one. The first contact with the angled face can cause the blade to deflect and make a lot of problems.


Am I just over thinking this and worrying for nothing or did you take steps to prevent that?  What kind of blade did you use and what kind of holder?


Jerry
Hi Jerry,


For those angled cuts I used my metal cutting bandsaw to go through most of the way, then finished with a hacksaw for that cut and the short straight cut. The bandsaw has enough blade tension so it wont deflect much, and I did stay 1/16" at least away from the final line. I dont have circular saws for the mill that will do this thick steel, so I usually use the bandsaw, hacksaw, or recip saw for hogging off material, then mill to good finish, that part I showed. Hope that helps?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Baner on March 04, 2019, 01:54:42 PM
Just catching up after a long hiatus and... WOW! :o One Cylinder block would be incredible - Three is phenomenal! Outstanding work. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Dave.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on March 04, 2019, 02:23:18 PM
A huge project in the midst of a huger (in that a word?) project! Well done.  :ThumbsUp:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on March 04, 2019, 05:12:58 PM
Looking great.... :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 04, 2019, 10:57:04 PM
Just catching up after a long hiatus and... WOW! :o One Cylinder block would be incredible - Three is phenomenal! Outstanding work. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Dave.
Actually, the cylinder blocks come later, these are just the crank/crosshead blocks!   :insane:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 04, 2019, 10:57:50 PM
A huge project in the midst of a huger (in that a word?) project! Well done.  :ThumbsUp:

Jim
Mongoriffic? More biggererer?   :Lol:    :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 04, 2019, 10:58:14 PM
Looking great.... :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Thanks Willy, glad to have you back, hope you are getting better!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 04, 2019, 11:05:53 PM
The caps blocks were cut from some 3/8" square bar, and one side milled to fit the notches on the crankshaft mounts. Naturally, being a 45 degree angle to the bottom of the part, clamping the blocks in place for drilling the bolt holes was not easily done. But, since the notches held them from moving lengthwise, all I needed to do was to keep them from moving sideways. So, wound up drilling the 2-56 tap holes in the caps first, then just holding them in place on the notches while lining up the same drill bit with one hole in the cap, and getting it started. Drilled/tapped the one hole for each cap first - did not want to try doing all 4 that way since there was too much chance of the cap slipping sideways slightly on one of them.
(https://i.postimg.cc/44pN88x4/IMG-4637.jpg)
Then, drilled out that one hole in each cap to clearance fit, and with a screw holding the caps with that first hole, I could go back and drill the other three:
(https://i.postimg.cc/7YDPjg53/IMG-4638.jpg)
Then I drilled out the rest of the holes to clearance size. Now all I need to do is tap the remaining 18 holes, maybe tomorrow, so I can bolt the caps down solidly. Then, can drill/bore for the bearing holes for the crankshaft through the side walls, and then shape the tops of the caps down.
Getting close to finishing up these parts, then I'll start in on the cylinders, which bolt to the front ends of these crossheads...
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on March 04, 2019, 11:44:22 PM
More great progress Chris! Well done.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: Hull-less  :popcorn: Hull-less  :popcorn: Hull-less  :popcorn:

Question: Are people in Hull England allowed to eat Hull-less popcorn? Maybe that's why they changed the name of (Popcorn) Hull Quebec to Gatineau?  Was there a "revolte a propos mais souffle sans coque"?

Now taking cover. Ow! just poked my sore cheek....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on March 04, 2019, 11:46:34 PM
Dog just following how you went about making these parts is very impressive! Well thought out and documented for anyone to learn from. You have proved that obstacles when taught out can be over come. You have shown some real craftsmenship in every aspect of this built. I am at awe and waiting to see the construction of the cylinders. Just my ranting Chris so you know .......I........like........ :Love:


  :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 05, 2019, 12:26:34 AM
More great progress Chris! Well done.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: Hull-less  :popcorn: Hull-less  :popcorn: Hull-less  :popcorn:

Question: Are people in Hull England allowed to eat Hull-less popcorn? Maybe that's why they changed the name of (Popcorn) Hull Quebec to Gatineau?  Was there a "revolte a propos mais souffle sans coque"?

Now taking cover. Ow! just poked my sore cheek....
One too many pain pills, maybe?   :thinking:


 :Lol:



Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 05, 2019, 12:30:39 AM
Dog just following how you went about making these parts is very impressive! Well thought out and documented for anyone to learn from. You have proved that obstacles when taught out can be over come. You have shown some real craftsmenship in every aspect of this built. I am at awe and waiting to see the construction of the cylinders. Just my ranting Chris so you know .......I........like........ :Love:


  :cheers:
Don
Thanks again Don!  Thats a big part of the fun of these projects, the challenge of learning new techniques. Learned a lot on this one. Now comes the nervous part, after all this work getting the crankshaft holes correct!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 05, 2019, 02:14:38 PM
Tapped the rest of the holes this morning, and temporarily screwed the caps in place. The caps were made from 3/8" bar, but the walls of the bay are slightly thinner than that, so then took a few light cuts to take the caps down to match the wall thickness. The back one is done in this picture, you can see the slight step from the wall out to the cap in the one closer to the camera, which has not been trimmed yet.

(https://i.postimg.cc/RhYgDqn6/IMG-4639.jpg)
Then set the parts up on their sides in the mill vise, with the base towards the fixed jaw for best alignment, and the side of the base against the bottom of the vise, and the bearing block just overhanging the edge of the vise so I could drill through. Center drilled then drilled .281 for the bronze bearing.
(https://i.postimg.cc/T11k0nhv/IMG-4641.jpg)
All of those went well, the drill was rigid enough not to skate when going into the second wall, so thats a relief. If the first one started to, I was going to use a long center drill first but no problems.
Parts so far, ready to take the caps down to size/shape on tops, and make the bronze bearings.

(https://i.postimg.cc/RCppFpbS/IMG-4642.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on March 05, 2019, 03:50:32 PM
Looking great Chris! Gotta hand it to the original Marion designers - those bearing caps are sturdy and built to last. Glad to hear you didn't have wandering drill issues drilling the lower sets.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

re pain pills - maybe not a good idea to post musings about hull-less popcorn while doing the dentist's dope. He says it is Advil on Steroids but it is definitely high power stuff. No pain, but some loopiness..... :insane:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 05, 2019, 04:08:57 PM
Looking great Chris! Gotta hand it to the original Marion designers - those bearing caps are sturdy and built to last. Glad to hear you didn't have wandering drill issues drilling the lower sets.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

re pain pills - maybe not a good idea to post musings about hull-less popcorn while doing the dentist's dope. He says it is Advil on Steroids but it is definitely high power stuff. No pain, but some loopiness..... :insane:
Sounds like one of the combinations with the opiods mixed in - take as few as possible and stop taking it as soon as possible, that stuff is not candy, though some doctors prescribe it like it is. When my mother had her hip replaced, they prescribed her this enormous bottle of Percoset, same dosage as a large person, even though she wieghs about 95 pounds. We had her take half the dosage and only for the first week, there was enough left to get a high school loopy.   :insane:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 05, 2019, 04:10:55 PM
Started in on taking the tops of the caps down to shape, same method as all the ones previous...
(https://i.postimg.cc/2Sznphns/IMG-4643.jpg)
One cap down, 5 to go....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on March 05, 2019, 05:28:51 PM
Good advice re the meds Chris, I appreciate it. Cap is looking good.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 05, 2019, 07:57:18 PM
And the bearings are made - simple bronze tubes, bored and turned to size:
(https://i.postimg.cc/0rgrCMs2/IMG-4646.jpg)
I think all that is left on the engine blocks is to drill the mounting holes - those holes will be drilled last, so that I can adjust its position for the shipper gear and slew gear meshing.

(https://i.postimg.cc/3rkB9sTP/IMG-4645.jpg)
So, I will be moving on to the cylinder blocks next, but will be doing a bit more sanding/filing on these blocks to pretty them up some more. I kept waiting for Don to send up some of his elves to do it, but I heard they kept getting sidetracked going past the BBQ place...

The cylinder blocks will be made from some 2" diameter 1144 stressproof steel. They have both cylinders and the steam chest base in one piece. Looks like they are small enough that I can do the boring of the cylinders on the lathe, which I like since I normally get a better finish that way than using the boring head on the mill. The shapes are definitely simpler than the crosshead guides were, so I don't think there will be any new techniques to learn like there were on the guides.

Thanks to all who have been following along and helping out, much appreciated!   :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: sco on March 05, 2019, 08:47:33 PM
They are a mighty complex shape to hog out of the solid - I think you are a human CNC machine!

Simon.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: J.L. on March 05, 2019, 09:22:15 PM
Hi Chris,

I haven't been commenting much lately, but still am in awe of your work.
 
Saw some earlier pictures of work with ship models as well. I still have Harold Underhill books and plans for the 'Irene' brig and a 74 gun 'ship of the line'. Have you seen C Nepean Longridge's "The Anatomy of Nelson's Ships" book? It is a complete, very thick book describing the constructionof HMS Victory with all plans within. Incredible book.

Another life Chris. Now we are in model engineering with metal.

John
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 05, 2019, 10:23:07 PM
They are a mighty complex shape to hog out of the solid - I think you are a human CNC machine!

Simon.
Thanks Simon!  Well, I do practice Count-Number-Cranks, I require occasional software updates, and need lubrication with chocolate and beer... Guess that counts as a human CNC!  :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 05, 2019, 10:28:28 PM
Hi Chris,

I haven't been commenting much lately, but still am in awe of your work.
 
Saw some earlier pictures of work with ship models as well. I still have Harold Underhill books and plans for the 'Irene' brig and a 74 gun 'ship of the line'. Have you seen C Nepean Longridge's "The Anatomy of Nelson's Ships" book? It is a complete, very thick book describing the constructionof HMS Victory with all plans within. Incredible book.

Another life Chris. Now we are in model engineering with metal.

John
Hi John,
I got copies of a number of the Underhill books and plans when I was young, built his brig Leon model from them, learned a lot from his methods. He was sort of the Kozo of ship models! I do have a copy of the Longridge book in my nautical library too. My 74 was built from the 4-volume set on the French version of the ship of the line, published by the French National Maritime Museum - the plans in those books are all fold-out at the same scale I built the model to, they have just about every stick and nail in it documented, quite an amazing set of books (each volume is a couple inches thick). These days have not done much ship modelling either, except for the RC variety, and the occasional 1:1 scale boat.
Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 05, 2019, 10:41:21 PM
This afternoon I got a start on the cylinder blocks, started by cutting blanks from some 2" diameter 1144 steel bar. The blanks are a little longer than needed, so that I can bore the holes most of the way through and not worry about hitting the chuck, since the jaws will be reversed and overlapping the holes. It worked out that I can get the parts out of the 2" round bar, trimming the outside down later, and the Sherline 4-jaw will just hold them offset for boring on the lathe. After trimming the ends square on the lathe, marked out the centerline and marked the locations of the bores to match the distance on the crosshead guides.
(https://i.postimg.cc/P544xZYj/IMG-4648.jpg)
Getting the offset correct between the bores is very important - went through a number of options till I hit on this one. If I center drill the locations on the mill, using the long axis of the mill table to move the proper distance between holes, I can get accurate reference dots.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1z3KNtrN/IMG-4649.jpg)
Then, using the coaxial centering indicator mounted in the tailstock, adjusted the 4-jaw till the first hole was dead centered and tightened it all down. The pointy straight rod for the co-ax is spring loaded at the tip, so I could run it into the hole without worrying about hurting anything.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vm2t7s02/IMG-4651.jpg)
 Here is a closeup of the indicator setup:

(https://i.postimg.cc/NMy7pzVs/IMG-4652.jpg)
Now that it is centered on that location, I will drill and bore the first cylinder opening without moving anything on the 4-jaw. Then, can re-center on the other dimple and know that the distances between the bores will be correct. Got that first hole drilled large enough for a narrow boring bar - had to keep the speed low due to the off-center weight of the part. The second hole should be able to run faster since it will have less weight off center with the first hole done. I think I am going to stop at the hardware store on the way up to archery tonight and pick up a couple of band clamps, see if I can strap on some counterwieghts and up the speed a little - if not, it will just have to run slower for the boring operation. Not on a production timeline, so thats not a problem!First hole is drilled:
(https://i.postimg.cc/hjH8w0W9/IMG-4654.jpg)
Next step will be to use the boring bar to take that hole out to size. Drilling this hole definitely showed the difference in accuracy, could see the slight wobble of the drill as it went in a touch off center from the dimple - the boring bar will correct that on the first pass, and the rest of the bore will be properly straight and round.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gary.a.ayres on March 05, 2019, 11:22:53 PM
Some impressive cylinders coming up...

Will follow their development, and learn...

 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on March 05, 2019, 11:47:58 PM
Good start Chris I do have the idea how your going about getting this one into shape, about the same idea I had to do it. It will be interesting to see it unfold. Always great to see updates..... :ThumbsUp:


 :popcorn:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 06, 2019, 02:03:51 AM
Good start Chris I do have the idea how your going about getting this one into shape, about the same idea I had to do it. It will be interesting to see it unfold. Always great to see updates..... :ThumbsUp:


 :popcorn:
Don
Hope its a case of Great Minds Think Alike!   :Lol:




Planning to bore the cylinders first, then can shape the steam chest outline with the part held by the flat ends, and do the rest with it held on an arbor through the cylinder, a side at a time. The steam and exhaust porting will be complex given the extra set for the internal reverse setup, but nothing hard to do.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 06, 2019, 02:04:38 AM
Some impressive cylinders coming up...

Will follow their development, and learn...

 :popcorn:
Thanks Gary, glad to have you on board!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on March 06, 2019, 12:17:43 PM
My coax centering tool also has one of the pointed attachments, but I never found a use for it.  On the mill I have found the pointed wiggler to be accurate to .001", but I can see how for centering a 4-jaw the coax would be much easier.  Thanks for the demo.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 06, 2019, 03:21:08 PM
My coax centering tool also has one of the pointed attachments, but I never found a use for it.  On the mill I have found the pointed wiggler to be accurate to .001", but I can see how for centering a 4-jaw the coax would be much easier.  Thanks for the demo.
Never used a wiggler, not quite sure how they work - can you give a pic or two on them?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 06, 2019, 03:31:29 PM
This morning got started on boring out the cylinder holes. Yesterday I had drilled the first starter hole, but found that the mass was so far off center that it was tough to get much speed on the motor, so low that it would stall on drilling. So, last night I stopped at the hardware store and picked up some hose clamps to put a counterbalance piece on the part - couple tries to find a bit of scrap the right weight, but it did help a lot. With it running at a reasonable speed (still moderate) the boring went well on the first cylinder:
(https://i.postimg.cc/qR0qLDZW/IMG-4655.jpg)
Got a very good finish on the bore, took a very light and slow feed pass at the end. Then, turned the part in the chuck and lined up the second dimple with the co-ax indicator. The dial markings are kind of meaningless, but adjusting till the pointer is not moving as the chuck is turned by hand goes pretty quickly - got it lined up close by eye then put the indicator on for the final tweaks.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Jnqnd3f0/IMG-4656.jpg)
Then, you guessed it, drilled the second starter hole (which goes about .150" deeper than needed, but not all the way through the blank so it does not hit the chuck jaws) :

(https://i.postimg.cc/Zn5RkBmc/IMG-4658.jpg)
and bored out the second cylinder just like the first one:
(https://i.postimg.cc/hvZGKDPq/IMG-4661.jpg)
That all went quite well, just need to repeat the steps on the other two blanks. Then I'lll turn back the excess on the end that was chucked, to get down to the final length. There is a boss for the exhaust pipe on that end, so it will be a combination of turning and milling on that face.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on March 06, 2019, 03:39:26 PM
Great start to your cylinders Chris. Finish in bores looks  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Good idea with the blue marker line for bar depth on the boring bar. Machining the chuck with the bar is never a good idea......

On one of my thin boring bars I added a mass damper weight / collar with setscrews when I ran into a chatter problem on one job. I found it was a handy depth stop too - but that method would be dangerous with an overhanging counterweight as you used - no finger saving clearance in case of hoo-ha!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 06, 2019, 03:47:30 PM
Great start to your cylinders Chris. Finish in bores looks  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Good idea with the blue marker line for bar depth on the boring bar. Machining the chuck with the bar is never a good idea......

On one of my thin boring bars I added a mass damper weight / collar with setscrews when I ran into a chatter problem on one job. I found it was a handy depth stop too - but that method would be dangerous with an overhanging counterweight as you used - no finger saving clearance in case of hoo-ha!
Thanks - very happy with the way it is going. I usually make the pen mark for the depth, started out by just counting turns but its too easy to lose track. I like the 'permenant' markers, which come off with a drop of alcohol (dont worry Cletus, its the non-drinkable kind) on a tissue. These holes were not drilled through the part all the way, so at worst I would bottom the cutter in the hole which makes for a nasty chatter when it happens.   Not that it ever does....  :embarassed:   I really like this little boring bar, got it as a gift from a machinist (professional one) that was cleaning out his toolbox after retiring. It was a sample one he had gotten and never used, but for the model work I do its a perfect size. I put in a fresh insert for these cuts, need to remember to order some more, the box is getting empty of that size....

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gary.a.ayres on March 06, 2019, 09:27:02 PM
Very clever, the way you balanced the setup with the strapped-on counterweight.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on March 06, 2019, 09:30:09 PM
Here's what I meant.  Place the pointed end into a punch mark or spot drill and  move the table until the two cylindrical parts align.  It's easy to feel when you're off a couple of thou.  I also used it to center over a hole that's smaller than the max diameter of the cone.  Just lowed until it was all the way in the hole touching the edges, and then move the table to match two halves.

(https://cdn.mscdirect.com/global/images/ProductImages/3140176-21.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: mklotz on March 06, 2019, 09:43:56 PM
  I also used it to center over a hole that's smaller than the max diameter of the cone.  Just lower until it was all the way in the hole touching the edges, and then move the table to match two halves.

I made these two devices to deal with the problem of holes larger than the cone on the edge finder.  Each consists of a slug of steel, accurately center-drilled at one end and having a conical taper at the other.  Each has a companion close-fitting ring.

(http://www.use.com/images/s_2/e1119df1d60b0180b973_2.jpg) (http://www.use.com/e1119df1d60b0180b973?p=2)
(http://www.use.com/images/clicklarge3.gif) (http://www.use.com/e1119df1d60b0180b973?p=2)


In use, the cone is inserted into the hole and the ring is pressed down on the stock to ensure that the conical plunger is held vertically.  Then the cone on the edge finder is inserted into the center-drilled hole.

(http://www.use.com/images/s_2/e1119df1d60b0180b973_3.jpg) (http://www.use.com/e1119df1d60b0180b973?p=3)
(http://www.use.com/images/clicklarge3.gif) (http://www.use.com/e1119df1d60b0180b973?p=3)


No, it's not as accurate as using a DTI in the Zero-It but it's more than accurate enough for 90% of the jobs I do.

They're simple to make.  Try one.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gary.a.ayres on March 06, 2019, 10:20:10 PM
My coax centering tool also has one of the pointed attachments, but I never found a use for it.  On the mill I have found the pointed wiggler to be accurate to .001", but I can see how for centering a 4-jaw the coax would be much easier.  Thanks for the demo.
Never used a wiggler, not quite sure how they work - can you give a pic or two on them?

Then there's also this kind:

(https://chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/CG156L.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 06, 2019, 10:21:53 PM
Here's what I meant.  Place the pointed end into a punch mark or spot drill and  move the table until the two cylindrical parts align.  It's easy to feel when you're off a couple of thou.  I also used it to center over a hole that's smaller than the max diameter of the cone.  Just lowed until it was all the way in the hole touching the edges, and then move the table to match two halves.

(https://cdn.mscdirect.com/global/images/ProductImages/3140176-21.jpg)
Gotcha! I have one of those, but have mainly used it just for edge finding, very handy. Thanks!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 06, 2019, 10:22:35 PM
  I also used it to center over a hole that's smaller than the max diameter of the cone.  Just lower until it was all the way in the hole touching the edges, and then move the table to match two halves.

I made these two devices to deal with the problem of holes larger than the cone on the edge finder.  Each consists of a slug of steel, accurately center-drilled at one end and having a conical taper at the other.  Each has a companion close-fitting ring.
(http://www.use.com/images/s_2/e1119df1d60b0180b973_2.jpg) (http://www.use.com/e1119df1d60b0180b973?p=2)
(http://www.use.com/images/clicklarge3.gif) (http://www.use.com/e1119df1d60b0180b973?p=2)

In use, the cone is inserted into the hole and the ring is pressed down on the stock to ensure that the conical plunger is held vertically.  Then the cone on the edge finder is inserted into the center-drilled hole.
(http://www.use.com/images/s_2/e1119df1d60b0180b973_3.jpg) (http://www.use.com/e1119df1d60b0180b973?p=3)
(http://www.use.com/images/clicklarge3.gif) (http://www.use.com/e1119df1d60b0180b973?p=3)

No, it's not as accurate as using a DTI in the Zero-It but it's more than accurate enough for 90% of the jobs I do.

They're simple to make.  Try one.
Thats clever - adding that one to my tool file! Thanks!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 06, 2019, 10:24:00 PM
My coax centering tool also has one of the pointed attachments, but I never found a use for it.  On the mill I have found the pointed wiggler to be accurate to .001", but I can see how for centering a 4-jaw the coax would be much easier.  Thanks for the demo.
Never used a wiggler, not quite sure how they work - can you give a pic or two on them?

Then there's also this kind:

(https://chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/CG156L.jpg)
Okay, THATS the kind that I have seen in the catalogs but have not used, not sure what the procedure is with them. How do they work? Sure its very simple, once its explained....   :shrug:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 06, 2019, 10:26:11 PM
Very clever, the way you balanced the setup with the strapped-on counterweight.
Its worked out very well so far, just one more hole to go in the third blank. On the hoist engines I had made a bolt-on clamp to do the same thing, but there is not enough clearance under the part and above the lathe bed on this part, so I gave the straps a try. Its not turning at high speed, I would be nervous about that much weight spinning fast with this kind of strap, but for a couple bucks I picked some up to try. :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gary.a.ayres on March 06, 2019, 10:43:17 PM

(https://chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/CG156L.jpg)
Okay, THATS the kind that I have seen in the catalogs but have not used, not sure what the procedure is with them. How do they work? Sure its very simple, once its explained....   :shrug:
[/quote]

Chris - It's similar to how kvom explains the other kind. Same principle with a slightly different setup. This kind has different tips from a point through to spheres, i.e. from punch marks to different sizes of holes. The ball joint at the chuck end is left free to move under any lateral pressure, so the wiggler will only run true if it is centred in the hole. If it isn't, it moves off centre either as you try to locate the hole or when you pull out of it.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 06, 2019, 10:50:57 PM

(https://chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/CG156L.jpg)
Okay, THATS the kind that I have seen in the catalogs but have not used, not sure what the procedure is with them. How do they work? Sure its very simple, once its explained....   :shrug:

Chris - It's similar to how kvom explains the other kind. Same principle with a slightly different setup. This kind has different tips from a point through to spheres, i.e. from punch marks to different sizes of holes. The ball joint at the chuck end is left free to move under any lateral pressure, so the wiggler will only run true if it is centred in the hole. If it isn't, it moves off centre either as you try to locate the hole or when you pull out of it.
That makes sense, I didn't know that the holder had a ball socket. Thanks!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on March 07, 2019, 02:57:26 AM
LOVE you work Chris.  I'm following along with great interest!

 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 07, 2019, 03:25:58 PM
This morning got the last hole bored for the cylinders, and took them up to the bandsaw to slice off the excess material I had left to hold them in the chuck (so I would not bore into the chuck jaws). Left me with three nice discs, future flywheels or crank webs, maybe?

(https://i.postimg.cc/R04mzZDW/IMG-4663.jpg)
Chucked each up in the 3-jaw to take the length of the cylinders down to final size - this took them down to the position of the exhaust pipe boss that will stand proud of the flanges.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CK7gMp3m/IMG-4666.jpg)
Then put the 4-jaw back on, and centered up the first bore on the newly trimmed end so I can cut the flange surface in, leaving the boss and steam chest end sticking up. The steam chest area will have to be taken down on the mill later. Switched from the pointed end indicator tip to the short ball end one, and centered on the inside of the bore.
(https://i.postimg.cc/KzYyRsFF/IMG-4668.jpg)
And used the boring bar to take the flange area out to size.

(https://i.postimg.cc/FRnXcgsS/IMG-4669.jpg)
Then turned the part around and centered on the other bore...
(https://i.postimg.cc/zvbZkbVc/IMG-4670.jpg)
and turned in the second flange (getting dizzy yet?)

(https://i.postimg.cc/2ysp9kW8/IMG-4671.jpg)
Other than a nice start on carving an owls face, or a pair of small binoculars, this is the start of the outer end face of the cylinder block. One of the widows peaks sticking down will be milled away flush to the flanges, the other will stay and form the bottom edge of the exhaust pipe boss. Above that will be the steam chest. First, need to do the same steps on the flanges on the other two blocks...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on March 07, 2019, 06:26:14 PM
"Owl eyes or small binoculars"

Or very short, very sturdy shotgun barrels..... :naughty:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 07, 2019, 06:29:58 PM
"Owl eyes or small binoculars"

Or very short, very sturdy shotgun barrels..... :naughty:
Very very small figure-8 race track (if you have ever seen the demolition derby style figure-8 tracks)...
Scale model of infinity.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on March 07, 2019, 07:20:50 PM
 :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 07, 2019, 08:23:00 PM
Very cold up here this week, so good reason to stay in the shop and play. With the last of the recesses below the exhaust bosses cut, went to the band saw again and trimmed off the bulk of the excess round bar:
(https://i.postimg.cc/3xTJSMz9/IMG-4672.jpg)
Used a pair of round rods (same diameter, checked twice) to align the part in the vise level with the hole centers, and took the cut edges down to size. The bottom surface was taken right to the measurement, the top surface, which will be the steam port face in the chest, was left .020 tall, so that I can do a trueing pass after cutting/drilling the ports, to get nice crisp edges, flat face, and no clamping dings in the port face.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XvNNWfjC/IMG-4673.jpg)
Then clamped it on edge, and carefully trimmed the excess at the bottom of the recess flat, and also took off the end of the steam chest, leaving just the exhaust boss. The excess at the sides of the arcs will be taken off while milling the outlines of the flanges.
(https://i.postimg.cc/jj8xSD2k/IMG-4675.jpg)
And the cylinder blocks so far:
(https://i.postimg.cc/MpmZgPSw/IMG-4676.jpg)
Next I think is to make up an arbor to hold the parts through the bores, so I can use the rotary table to cut the arcs in the ends to form the flanges. Same setup will be used to take down the center between the flanges.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on March 07, 2019, 08:43:53 PM
Chris--As always, I continue to be amazed by your talent and your "Stick-to-ivness". (Think I just made up a word). My latest i.c. engine has kept me entertained since mid December, but honestly, I'm tired of machining things right now, and the engine still isn't performing as well as I would like it to. I check every day to see what you've done, and I am impressed beyond words.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 07, 2019, 08:47:57 PM
Chris--As always, I continue to be amazed by your talent and your "Stick-to-ivness". (Think I just made up a word). My latest i.c. engine has kept me entertained since mid December, but honestly, I'm tired of machining things right now, and the engine still isn't performing as well as I would like it to. I check every day to see what you've done, and I am impressed beyond words.---Brian
Thanks Brian, much appreciated. I am sure the machining bug will sneak up on you again soon! Great way to pass the time on cold winter days while waiting for spring to sproing!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 08, 2019, 03:51:02 AM
Hey CNR - just noticed my set of the Morrison/Marvin castings for the model makers vise sitting there patiently aging on the shelf, which I want to get to soon. The broaching jig and cutter you taught how to make is going to come in handy again - the same type setup will work for doing the keyway on that casting as well! No where near as complex, but the cutter head making technique would work fine for that as well....
 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on March 08, 2019, 05:49:32 AM
Fantastic Chris! Very glad the technique will come in handy again. Look forward to seeing that build when you do it.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

I see you powered up the Herzberg Flattenizer for the material relief on the sides of your cylinders. The cylinders are emerging quickly!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 08, 2019, 04:00:16 PM
And started shaping the outsides of the cylinder blocks this morning - started by squaring up the edges of the steam chest bases:
(https://i.postimg.cc/W3Rwj5Rb/IMG-4678.jpg)
Then made an arbor to hold the parts centered on the bores. Turned down the end of a piece of round bar, tapped the end for a bolt, and made a cap. The edges that touch the outer ends of the parts were undercut slightly, so that it only grips at the outer rims of the arbor for best holding power.
Then, used the side of the end mill to round the edges of the parts - went in to depth in a couple layers, making a pass every 5 degrees on the rotary table very similar to how the bearing caps are done, except using the side of the cutter rather than the end.
(https://i.postimg.cc/DZqdz1FQ/IMG-4683.jpg)
First did one side, then swapped to the other hole to do the other side. Where the curve meets the steam chest base, the cutter was raised to the center of the arbor so it would get into the corner.  Here is the first part up to that point, compared to the next one before cutting in the sides.
(https://i.postimg.cc/yxsh3WYM/IMG-4684.jpg)
Will do each part up to that stage, then the next step is to tape the centers of the arc in farther, to form the protruding flanges.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on March 08, 2019, 05:06:39 PM
Love it Dog!...... :ThumbsUp:


  :popcornsmall:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 08, 2019, 07:56:07 PM
All three have had the outer flanges rounded off to diameter, now starting on the smaller diameter sections between the flanges. Started by taking the flat area between the cylinders on the bottom down to size, leaving the short wall sections where the cylinder drains go.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6qJ55GzX/IMG-4685.jpg)
One done, two to go, then will put the rotab back on and do the arcs at the ends down to that level....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gary.a.ayres on March 08, 2019, 11:20:29 PM
Taking shape beautifully.

Such skill!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 09, 2019, 12:52:40 AM
Taking shape beautifully.

Such skill!
Thanks Gary!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 09, 2019, 12:55:01 AM
Got the rest of the bottom sections milled in, and started shaping the arcs on the side - started by using the side of the mill cutter to take out the bulk of the material:
(https://i.postimg.cc/KjJyd9qR/IMG-4686.jpg)
then am cleaning up the edges with the end of the cutter - will need to trim in next to the steam chest base as a separate pass next:
(https://i.postimg.cc/xjRYJCfn/IMG-4688.jpg)
Enough for one day, great progress on the cylinders.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on March 09, 2019, 06:05:10 AM
I'll say!  That's GREAT progress Chris!  I've done some of that rounding like that before and it can take a while. How far did you go for each pass?  Three degrees?  or more or less?  Regardless, it takes a lot of passes and you have to stay vigilant not to over shoot on either side.

Well done, Chris.  :ThumbsUp:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: scc on March 09, 2019, 10:12:25 AM
Thank you Chris,     For me this build is hugely educational :happyreader:    I learn a new technique with every post......not to mention a skill level to aspire to :praise2:

Terry
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 09, 2019, 12:53:52 PM
I'll say!  That's GREAT progress Chris!  I've done some of that rounding like that before and it can take a while. How far did you go for each pass?  Three degrees?  or more or less?  Regardless, it takes a lot of passes and you have to stay vigilant not to over shoot on either side.

Well done, Chris.  :ThumbsUp:
Kim
Thanks Kim!
I did one turn on the rotab handle per pass which is 5 degrees, that gave a reasonable finish, some light filing will blend it smooth. For the initial passes with a lot to remove it was 2 or 3 degrees. Using the side of the cutter let it take a deeper cut, and its giving a nice surface.
For these internal cuts you are right, lots of attention needed on tracking nbr of turns!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 09, 2019, 12:57:05 PM
Thank you Chris,     For me this build is hugely educational :happyreader:    I learn a new technique with every post......not to mention a skill level to aspire to :praise2:

Terry
Thanks Terry, lots of this is new territory for me too, fun to figure out all the setups.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 09, 2019, 02:14:29 PM
Finishing cuts on the flanges....
(https://i.postimg.cc/y6QmVb6V/IMG-4690.jpg)
And the family-o-engines so far!
(https://i.postimg.cc/wT1h3Q3D/IMG-4691.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 09, 2019, 09:23:13 PM
Next step is to drill the holes for the bolts to mount the cylinder blocks to the crosshead guides. Previously I had made the cylinder bottom caps, with the bosses turned and drilled to hold the piston glands turned to fit the crosshead tubes. The bolt holes were drilled together in both to match, and those caps are now being used as the drill guides for the cylinders. To get the best possible alignment between the three pieces, I made up some little alignment pieces - simple brass short rods, with one end turned to be a close fit to the cylinder bores, and the other end turned to be a close fit in the valve rod holes in the caps. A lot like the centering punches you can buy to put in dowel holes to transfer the locations to another piece of wood.
(https://i.postimg.cc/VvH4dXpv/IMG-4692.jpg)
I put the pieces together, and first used the middle hole in the caps to locate and drill/tap a hole in the end of the cylinder blocks (the lower end, without the exhaust boss) for a small screw to hold it all in place. Then, with the jigs and the cap held together, I can start drilling the bolt holes in the cylinder flanges, using the existing holes in the cap as a drill guide. Simple to use, just adjust the mill table till the drill slips into the hole without deflecting, then drill through the flange, starting slow to avoid any skating tendancy. Goes quickly, no need to keep switching out to a center drill or centering indicator. Also, since the cap is screwed down, and all the holes done in one go, everything should line up well.
(https://i.postimg.cc/G3MX71tR/IMG-4693.jpg)
So, bunch more holes to drill/tap and I can test fit the cylinders. Now, most of the bolts will go from the cylinder flange into the crosshead, but the top couple where the steam chest base is will have to go from the crosshead into the cylinder. For that reason, I had left all the holes in the cap as tap size, once all the locating/drilling is down, I'll go back and open out the appropriate ones to clearance size. Lots to keep track of! 



Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 10, 2019, 12:52:22 AM
First cylinder/crosshead set test assembled to check fit of the screw holes - all looks good.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bNtxjGpz/IMG-4694.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/131pR93D/IMG-4695.jpg)

And I found out where George gets those 4" diameter pennies....
(https://i.postimg.cc/9QPyrvDK/IMG-4696.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on March 10, 2019, 09:09:08 AM
Hi Chris,
 Well I finally have caught up! Been away with flaky internet at the beach ..... so hard being on hoilday with blue sky, warm ocean and 25 to 30 C weather! Oh and cold  :cheers:

Any way the engines are looking awesome!

The popcorn fields are starting to be harvested so  :popcorn: :popcorn:

Oh I see mention of the Stanley I can get some photos for you of the one Dads playing with,  sorry but he’s got it back together so can’t get internal shots for you.

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on March 10, 2019, 01:32:38 PM
Great progress Chris! engines are looking great.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 10, 2019, 05:28:36 PM
Thanks guys!
Kerrin - I found a website about the Stanley cars that includes a bunch of great internal photos of the parts. As I mentioned earlier, the one thing that may delay that build is figuring out how to actually machine the engine block, since it has a single piece that includes both cylinders (no problem there), the steam chest (again, not an issue), but the steam port faces face into each other inside the same steam chest, with the only access from the side through a round portal (big problem!). Trying to make the part look like the original but needing to make it in two (or more) halves that bolt together somehow has me stumped at the moment.
Here are top and bottom views of the cylinder block:
(https://i.postimg.cc/4xJq1XBZ/Stanley-block.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/NjpVJZzX/Stanley-block2.jpg)


Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 10, 2019, 05:32:23 PM
This morning I have been alternating between sanding/grinding the outsides of the engine/cylinder blocks to smooth out the tooling marks from the milling operations, and drilling/tapping the holes for mounting the cylinders to the crossheads. Here is one test bolted together, and with some (not all) sanding work done:
(https://i.postimg.cc/KYfWWwpL/IMG-4697.jpg)
And the rest bolted up and needing sanding (screws will be replaced with studs/nuts for the final assembly later on, still lots of work on the parts first).
(https://i.postimg.cc/3RwqQ1zq/IMG-4699.jpg)
Next parts to be made will be the cylinder top covers, then the steam chest and its lid....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on March 10, 2019, 05:32:38 PM
Dog you have it totally under control great results I couldn’t of done it better..... :lolb: well you do know .....I.........like.......... :Love:


 :popcornsmall:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on March 10, 2019, 07:13:53 PM
Those look great Chris!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 10, 2019, 11:06:17 PM
After some time sanding the parts, made the front covers and got a start on drilling the front cover holes. The covers were rough cut from some brass plate, the shapes of the cylinders traced on, and the outlines formed on the belt sander - for thin stock like this it went much faster than setting up the mill, and came out well. Then, needed a way to hold the parts for drilling on the circular pattern, and could not through-bolt since the covers have no center hole. So, made up a little expanding collet for the arbor I used to mill the cylinders. Just a bit of brass, turned to fit the cylinders and a taper bored into the center hole. A saw cut on one side lets it expand, and turned a matching taper onto the outside of a socket head screw. Instant expanding collet:
(https://i.postimg.cc/br3gC8fr/IMG-4700.jpg)
Here it is with the first cylinder:
(https://i.postimg.cc/SQrgNLY4/IMG-4701.jpg)
Clamped the cover plate in place, and drilled/tapped the bolt pattern:
(https://i.postimg.cc/SxXdrwTQ/IMG-4703.jpg)
I want to keep the table in the same place for all the cylinders, so screwed the parts in place on the second side without moving the mill table, and drilled the second side:
(https://i.postimg.cc/BQnM882K/IMG-4704.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/65bzC9h1/IMG-4705.jpg)
One cover plate down, two to go:
(https://i.postimg.cc/kgkchfzQ/IMG-4706.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on March 10, 2019, 11:10:00 PM
Just a few thoughts on how to machine the Stanley cylinder, in the attached jpeg sketch. Food for thought only.

Have the castings been made or could they have some meat added on the patterns before casting, in a few key places? Hope so!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 10, 2019, 11:37:34 PM
Just a few thoughts on how to machine the Stanley cylinder, in the attached jpeg sketch. Food for thought only.

Have the castings been made or could they have some meat added on the patterns before casting, in a few key places? Hope so!
Interesting ideas. I have no castings, would make from bar stock, so just making the interior cavity would be interesting, let alone lapping the valve face. Those two holes are for valve rods, the used a neat tubular guide outside that has the glands at the other end. I dont mind making small changes for practicality, but would like to keep it looking right overall. Lots of time to figure it out, the Marion will be building for many months yet!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on March 11, 2019, 03:29:57 AM
Hi Chris, I got all 6 of my working brain cells going tonight for a few minutes and had a couple more thoughts based on your notes.

If there are no castings, fab only,  I'd also consider making two separate steel cylinders (much like machining for the Marion Shovel ones, but one cyl each) then silver solder or TIG weld a steel connecting box between them. This would allow easy access on each cylinder to the ports for cutting, and easy lapping of the valve faces before final assy to the connecting box - no special tooling or processes for ports and lapping, as would be needed for a casting. The joint could be "just at the edges of a box" on each side if the joint was planned carefully to make a "seat" on each cylinder that conformed to the box edges. The solder or welds would just join the box edges to the cylinder seats.

If welding, it would be a good idea to design the joints so there is easy external access for all welds and room for the TIG torch and gas lens to swing at the corners.

A fixture would probably be needed to keep everything aligned during silver soldering or TIG welding. The fixture should probably also include inserts to cover and protect the valve faces, maybe faced with typing correction fluid to keep solder or weld spatter from adhering. The inserts could be screw-removed after silver soldering or welding.

To make the joint between a box and two cyls would be far easier I think than splitting the cyls and box into two halves (visualize a casting pattern for a cylinder, in halves with cores for the ports ) and trying to solder or weld multiple buried edges - there would almost certainly be leaks in that case.

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 11, 2019, 08:09:25 PM
Could do an overlapping box in the center, with a step at the bottom of the joint for a bit of o-ring type material, just a couple of screws through the side through slotted holes - press it together and tighten the screws maybe...
Sort of like this super-high-tech rendering   :embarassed:

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on March 11, 2019, 08:40:39 PM
Here’s my two cents! Make both cylinders seperate and have the port faces machine and ready they are all flat from what I see in the drawing. To connect them together you could screw them together after machining the middle body or sliver solder them together with no worry about leakage. After which do the final machine on the midbody to dimensions. I may have missed something but I am thinking.... :thinking:


 :popcorn:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 11, 2019, 08:52:25 PM
Here’s my two cents! Make both cylinders seperate and have the port faces machine and ready they are all flat from what I see in the drawing. To connect them together you could screw them together after machining the middle body or sliver solder them together with no worry about leakage. After which do the final machine on the midbody to dimensions. I may have missed something but I am thinking.... :thinking:


 :popcorn:
Don
I am a little leary of silver soldering the sides together since its a one way trip, no way to open up if something is wrong. But it would make it look right...




Hmmm, if the pieces were a snug fit with an overlapped joint they could be loctited, which is un-doable if needed... Could put in a small screw or pin too for strength if needed. The manifold spans the sides, which would help too, that part is not in that render.




Possible!




Now the really hard part. How to subcontract some of the work to Zee to get his butt into that wonderful shop he built!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 11, 2019, 08:54:31 PM
Oh, and no shop time today, yet, errands then took mom out to lunch and shopping, all higher priority. Maybe this evening...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on March 11, 2019, 09:21:23 PM
Hi Chris, I think it could be done with o-rings and screws, but it may add a quite a lot of non-scale bulk to the box to do. The other thing is - if you want the screws as shown in your sketch to squeeze the o-rings to a design gap, the red box may need a centre split to be able to assemble squeezing o-rings both sides and middle, which is hard to seal. If the screws were at 90 degrees to the direction shown in the sketch (your sketch by the way was great - it would likely meet specs for high-tech-ness at NASA  :naughty:) you could have an o-ring groove around the port face boundary that could receive an o-ring on each cylinder. Sketch attached.  :atcomputer:

 The screws/studs/nuts would not be to scale though - that's why I was thinking to silver solder or weld around the joint, replacing the o-ring, and fastening at the same time, without screws or studs/ nuts.

BAD PUN ALERT          BAD PUN ALERT         BAD PUN ALERT        BAD PUN ALERT        BAD PUN ALERT

Got to go get a cough drop - got some post NASA-L drip....... :Jester:

FYI I use Paint all the time - great tool for a quick idea-transfer sketch or markup of a screen dump jpeg.  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 11, 2019, 10:20:06 PM
Hi Jeff, problem with bolting from the sides like that is there is no metal that far out on the block for the screws. Holding it with loctite or even soft solder with a couple of small screws through  half lap would keep it looking more true to original shape.  Will go play with some sketches...

Just got the last of the cylinder cap screw holes drilled and tapped, tomorrow will start laying out stock for the steam chests. The lids will be another carving job since they have raised Marion lettering like the front track supports.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 11, 2019, 10:54:28 PM
Okay, with your guys ideas included, here is what I am currently thinking. For the moment. Or less...
If I split the body into three sections, two cylinders and a center steam chest section, with the center having flanges that project into slots in the cylinders. The joint could be held a number of ways, easiest to take apart when needed could be to put in some sealant goo, and assemble with a few screws from the outside to go through the halflap joint:
(https://i.postimg.cc/KYBhTyGM/Image5.jpg)
The red arrow shows a place where on the original was an o-ring groove for the access lid that screws in. That is not visible on the assembled engine, so that groove area could be changed to block up the gap, and a surface sealing o ring added up at the lip. Closing up that gap with more material on the center section would strengthen it as well.

View of the center alone:
(https://i.postimg.cc/fLv4Hj0W/Image6.jpg)
and one cylinder side:
(https://i.postimg.cc/TwxMqH1H/Image8.jpg)
Doing it this way could make it possible to machine conventionally. It would still be quite a complex shape, but thats just more steps to shape the outside. This would also get the cylinder sections down to narrower pieces, easier to turn on the lathe and makes it possible to up the scale some more.
It is worth noting that these drawings were taken from old ones and parts by students, and there are some placement errors on the ports and faces and the valve guides that still need to be cleaned up. This is still in the advance planning stages, actual work wont begin till after the Marion is done, probably at least into the fall of this year.
 :cheers:
Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on March 11, 2019, 10:56:32 PM
Chris you could make a border lip around the midbody and the port face to overlap and make a snug fit. That way no error before soldering or bolting. You would have to sweat solder first on the mid body then reheat and reflow and add as needed to make the seal. There would be no need to take it apart. Clamps would be needed to make sure the fit is snug after heating. My ranting again!


 :popcorn:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on March 11, 2019, 10:57:52 PM
Damn Dog we think alike posted together!

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 11, 2019, 10:59:34 PM
Damn Dog we think alike posted together!

Don
Great minds think alike!!    :)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gary.a.ayres on March 12, 2019, 06:55:21 AM
Chris - how big will the Stanley car be?

gary
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 12, 2019, 02:00:35 PM
Chris - how big will the Stanley car be?

gary
I do have a set of plans for a small car, but the main project is a scale engine only. The boiler style for a Stanley is quite different, not that suitable for a model. I am more interested in the engine, not sure yet how big it will be, maybe in the 1:4 scale range.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 12, 2019, 06:53:56 PM
Not much to show today, did get the stock for the steam chests and lids cut down to overall size, ready for shaping...
(https://i.postimg.cc/KYzwSgk5/IMG-4710.jpg)
Did not have any steel the right dimensions so I am using brass for them.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on March 12, 2019, 07:07:39 PM
Looks like a good start on the chests and covers for the shovel Chris.   :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Don't forget to order your 45 gallon drum of Brasso!  :naughty:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Elam Works on March 12, 2019, 07:27:13 PM
The Stanley stuff ought to be split off into a separate post. Until then here is an idea, why not just spilt the cylinders laterally (see attached)?

These 3D printings were some 1/4 scale proof of concept(s) that I did a few years back. Yes, everyone has an idea of doing a scale Stanley engine! The idea was the upper and lower half would be furnace brazed together. Perhaps with a little weight on the assembly in the furnace to get a tight (and the strongest) joint. It would require some potentially onerous lapping of the valve seat face after the fact, but on the positive side would make machining the steam passages easier. At that time, I created four registration pins in the corners of the valve chest, which you can see in the parts at the top of the image. But since then I think a better way would be to leave the cylinder bores solid and plant the registration pins (which could be large and further from the center) in that area. They would be drilled away when the cylinders were punched through. Perhaps ball milling a gutter down each side just in from the finished bore so the flux and spelter would have a place to ooze into, and relieving the center so the joint lay tight where the spelter would be. That way the upper half would not float on a entrapped area of flux. Could whip up a screen shot if that is not clear.

Models were based on several original engines that passed through the workshop for rebuilds. And yes, the commercial available plans are not 100% correct, but more of a 'stylized' 20hp engine mostly based on the 735/740 series. 1907 20hp cylinder on the left, and a 1913 20hp cylinder on the right (before they had truss rods from the cylinder block to the rear axle.)

-Doug

[Fix typo. 12Mar19. -Doug]
[Fix another typo. 17Jul19. -Doug]
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 12, 2019, 07:34:35 PM
Looks like a good start on the chests and covers for the shovel Chris.   :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Don't forget to order your 45 gallon drum of Brasso!  :naughty:
No brasso needed - they will be painted to match the steel parts! (sorry Don!)   ^-^
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 12, 2019, 07:43:50 PM
The Stanley stuff out to be split off into a separate post. Until then here is an idea, why not just spilt the cylinders laterally (see attached)?

These 3D printings were some 1/4 scale proof of concept(s) that I did a few years back. Yes, everyone has an idea of doing a scale Stanley engine! The idea was the upper and lower half would be furnace brazed together. Perhaps with a little weight on the assembly in the furnace to get a tight (and the strongest) joint. It would require some potentially onerous lapping of the valve seat face after the fact, but on the positive side would make machining the steam passages easier. At that time, I created four registration pins in the corners of the valve chest, which you can see in the parts at the top of the image. But since then I think a better way would be to leave the cylinder bores solid and plant the registration pins (which could be large and further from the center) in that area. They would be drilled away when the cylinders were punched through. Perhaps ball milling a gutter down each side just in from the finished bore so the flux and spelter would have a place to ooze into, and reliving the center so the joint lay tight where the spelter would be. That way the upper half would not float on a entrapped area of flux. Could whip up a screen shot if that is not clear.

Models were based on several original engines that passed through the workshop for rebuilds. And yes, the commercial available plans are not 100% correct, but more of a 'stylized' 20hp engine mostly based on the 735/740 series. 1907 20hp cylinder on the left, and a 1913 20hp cylinder on the right (before they had truss rods from the cylinder block to the rear axle.)

-Doug
Hi Doug,
Those are some nice patterns, shows how complex the original parts were!  The drawings I have are not commercially available, got them from someone who was redrawing an old set from a museum collection. They were not taken from actual parts, and I have found some minor errors in them, but they appear to be pretty close. A friend of mine has an original engine in his collection, can use that for details if needed.
I am looking to make these parts from bar stock rather than castings, so that will influence the direction I take on making them - don't have any foundry resources or skills myself, do have the equipment for silver soldering and small lathe/mill (sherline). Splitting the whole cylinders off as their own pieces would allow me to turn the bores on the lathe, which would help a lot.

As you show, ideally they would be cast and machined like the originals, but that is beyond what I am able to accomplish. They must have had some interesting setups for lapping the valve faces, yet another factory to visit if we can ever get that time machine working!
Thanks for the pics, and keep the ideas coming! Later on this year I'll start up a thread on the Stanley build, for now its definitely on the back burner. Actually on one of them, there are always a few background projects here!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Elam Works on March 12, 2019, 10:25:43 PM
I don't have a foundry but I do have a CNC mill, so my thought was to surface mill the two halves from billet. The inner features are sort of prismatic, so not too much difference between the end results whether one manual or CNC machined them. The steam ports would likely be simplified into an orthogonal s-bend where as with CNC it could be a nice curve closer to the original; but the differences would not be too great. Externally though, it would be a tedious bit of nibbling away to sculpt it on manual machinery. Not impossible, as various model engine build blogs using that approach have shown, but it would consume a lot of time.

The commercial drawings I was thinking of were the full size set published by the Stanley Museum in Kingfield, Maine.

The valve faces can be cut with a single point tool in  a shaper, just. Some sort of lapping to smooth out the planning marks was likely done.

They were an incredibly light engine for the time; perhaps a little too light and the rod frame is about as rigid as wet pasta and prone to breaking. Some of the design details were really bad engineering practice. I mean, even things the Victorians already knew not to do! They were constantly evolving as things broke, and seemly changed about every fifth engine. There are innumerable detail variants. Some of these can make modeling easier, or conversely more challenging.

-Doug
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gary.a.ayres on March 12, 2019, 11:06:14 PM
Chris - how big will the Stanley car be?

gary
I do have a set of plans for a small car, but the main project is a scale engine only. The boiler style for a Stanley is quite different, not that suitable for a model. I am more interested in the engine, not sure yet how big it will be, maybe in the 1:4 scale range.

I was kind of hoping you would say you were going to build a full-sized car!   ;)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 13, 2019, 12:46:50 AM
Chris - how big will the Stanley car be?

gary
I do have a set of plans for a small car, but the main project is a scale engine only. The boiler style for a Stanley is quite different, not that suitable for a model. I am more interested in the engine, not sure yet how big it will be, maybe in the 1:4 scale range.

I was kind of hoping you would say you were going to build a full-sized car!   ;)
I am leaving that to Ye Old Steam Dude over on his thread!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 13, 2019, 12:48:40 AM
I don't have a foundry but I do have a CNC mill, so my thought was to surface mill the two halves from billet. The inner features are sort of prismatic, so not too much difference between the end results whether one manual or CNC machined them. The steam ports would likely be simplified into an orthogonal s-bend where as with CNC it could be a nice curve closer to the original; but the differences would not be too great. Externally though, it would be a tedious bit of nibbling away to sculpt it on manual machinery. Not impossible, as various model engine build blogs using that approach have shown, but it would consume a lot of time.

The commercial drawings I was thinking of were the full size set published by the Stanley Museum in Kingfield, Maine.

The valve faces can be cut with a single point tool in  a shaper, just. Some sort of lapping to smooth out the planning marks was likely done.

They were an incredibly light engine for the time; perhaps a little too light and the rod frame is about as rigid as wet pasta and prone to breaking. Some of the design details were really bad engineering practice. I mean, even things the Victorians already knew not to do! They were constantly evolving as things broke, and seemly changed about every fifth engine. There are innumerable detail variants. Some of these can make modeling easier, or conversely more challenging.

-Doug
They did have a number of variants, got hold of drawings for their spool valve version, don't think they sold any of those.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 13, 2019, 02:55:22 PM
Got out the rectangular drill  :thinking: and cut out the center of the steam chest blanks... 

(https://i.postimg.cc/MG1TXtz5/IMG-4711.jpg)
The inside corners will need to be filed square...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on March 13, 2019, 05:02:51 PM
Hello Chris,

I might have ask you this question before, but when you are milling Brass do you over cut or under cut? All you milling looks so clean.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 13, 2019, 05:14:40 PM
Hello Chris,

I might have ask you this question before, but when you are milling Brass do you over cut or under cut? All you milling looks so clean.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Some of each. These cuts were with a new cutter so nice and crisp. Also, recently stumbled into a sale on Butterfield Union cobalt mills for about $5 each, they cut wonderfully. I normally use undercut, but do final pass at same depth overcut which leaves nice finish. On some steels the undercut direction often embeds chips around the back after the cutter goes by and the final overcut takes that off.


Its usually the end cuts taking a flat surface down that leaves the most toolmarks.


Oh, and these steam chests are in stress relieved brass, which for whatever reason cuts smoother. I have mentioned before about baking the 360 brass at 500F for an hour to stress relieve to prevent warping when taking material iff the sides.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on March 13, 2019, 05:54:27 PM
Great work with the rectangular drill Chris. I like Butterfield cutters as well. Side note - I have some Butterfield taps in my toolbox that my Grandfather bought for the garage in the 1940's-1950's, possibly 1930's even, that still cut steel beautifully. No idea how many thousand holes they have tapped or at least chased out, on all manner of automotive junk. I've kept them as they are rarely used oddball threads. One is a left handed 1/2" British Parallel Pipe thread for example. More than once some odd piece of machinery will arrive for a repair at my shop, and sure enough there will be a tap from Gramps' Butterfield collection that fits a thread on it!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Roger B on March 13, 2019, 06:24:55 PM
As ever struggling to keep up with your rate of progress, looks amazing  :praise2:  :praise2:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 13, 2019, 08:29:04 PM
Little more done this afternoon, between projects for our boat group. Got the rest of the steam chests milled out in the center, and the overhangs milled into three of the sides. The last side gets the bosses for the valve and throttle rods, want to do some measuring on the o-rings before I shape those in.
(https://i.postimg.cc/VLKQBhfv/IMG-4712.jpg)
And started drilling for the mounting holes around the rim of the chests and lids:
(https://i.postimg.cc/K84X95jN/IMG-4713.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: scc on March 13, 2019, 08:38:00 PM
Hi Chris,  Just received my April copy of "Old Glory"   There is an article on "The Granite Rock Co" and a great picture taken in 1911 of a Marion model 50 steam shovel working in Logan Quarry. You probably have the picture in your archive anyway, but it was good to see. :)
Terry
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: scc on March 13, 2019, 08:41:10 PM
Just reading the article and it seems they operated a 1 1/4 yard model 20 prior to the model 50.                Terry
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 13, 2019, 08:50:44 PM
Hi Chris,  Just received my April copy of "Old Glory"   There is an article on "The Granite Rock Co" and a great picture taken in 1911 of a Marion model 50 steam shovel working in Logan Quarry. You probably have the picture in your archive anyway, but it was good to see. :)
Terry
I have not collected many photos, other than the (very) few from the LeRoy quarry of the two model 91's and the model 60 they had. I have never seen that magazine, just looked up its website, looks like an interesting one.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gary.a.ayres on March 13, 2019, 08:50:50 PM

 I normally use undercut, but do final pass at same depth overcut which leaves nice finish.


Agreed - 'climb milling', as it tends to be known on this side of the pond, is much maligned but you can't beat that same-depth final cut - at a high spindle speed - for a good finish.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 13, 2019, 08:51:21 PM
Just reading the article and it seems they operated a 1 1/4 yard model 20 prior to the model 50.                Terry
Been looking out the front window, still don't see you walking up the driveway with the issue....  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: scc on March 13, 2019, 08:55:38 PM
Give me chance to read it first :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 13, 2019, 08:56:43 PM
Just googled the quarry and steam shovels, found a picture of the shovel on their website, its on traction wheels, dumping a load into a car to its left....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: scc on March 13, 2019, 09:10:07 PM
Don't know if I'm allowed but just scanned the photo and was going to show you.   I will put it on anyway in case others may like to look.

Terry                            Picture from OLD GLORY magazine
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 13, 2019, 10:11:11 PM
Nice picture! That one is on Marion's optional traction wheels, which predate the crawler track option. They are driven wheels, I believe using the same type of chain drive that the rail mount used, and the front wheels were steerable.Thanks!

Correction, just looked up in the catalogs, its rear-wheel steering, front wheel drive, with chain drive. You can see the steering engine and drive shaft in the left/rear corner of the machine.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 14, 2019, 07:03:51 PM
Back in the shop again for a bit this afternoon, got more done on the mounting holes for the steam chests and lids. All the chest/lid holes are drilled, and have started on the matching ones for the base (which is part of the cylinder block). Started out with the first cylinder clamped level in the vise, and used one of the holes in the chest (checking to make sure it is on right way round, twice), and the clearance drill used to make the chest holes to line it up. With the drill run down the hole in the chest, moved the mill table till the edges of the chest line up with the edges of the base. Held the chest in place, turned on the mill, and used the drill to start the hole in the base like a center drill. Raised the drill, moved it over to the next hole, and dimpled there as well. Then switched to the tap drill, and drilled both holes in the base. That let me tap the two holes, and run the chest in with some screws to keep it in position.

(https://i.postimg.cc/d3DDhPsC/IMG-4716.jpg)
Then went around the perimeter of the chest, aligning/starting with the clearance drill and then drilling with the tap drill. That way there was no chance of the tap drill skating around. Here are all the holes in the base of the first cylinder:
(https://i.postimg.cc/C1czMLgY/IMG-4717.jpg)
I'll get those tapped, and do the same for the other two cylinder assemblies...
An alternate way would have been to figure the patterns all the way around in one go - have done it that way in the past. Both ways worked just fine.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 14, 2019, 09:28:24 PM
Gee whiz. It's been a while since I've been able to peek at the forum. You're not done yet? I figured you'd already started the Stanley.  ;D

Always an inspiration to read (most) of your posts.  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 14, 2019, 09:36:46 PM
Gee whiz. It's been a while since I've been able to peek at the forum. You're not done yet? I figured you'd already started the Stanley.  ;D

Always an inspiration to read (most) of your posts.  :Lol:
Well, I was going to start the Stanley but you were not here to watch, so I waited...   :Jester:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 14, 2019, 09:57:17 PM
First two steam chests drilled/tapped/assembled, one to go...
(https://i.postimg.cc/bYWC8dX9/IMG-4718.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 14, 2019, 11:04:16 PM
Gee whiz. It's been a while since I've been able to peek at the forum. You're not done yet? I figured you'd already started the Stanley.  ;D

Always an inspiration to read (most) of your posts.  :Lol:
Well, I was going to start the Stanley but you were not here to watch, so I waited...   :Jester:

I'm always watching you. Always. You need watching.  ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 14, 2019, 11:27:16 PM
Gee whiz. It's been a while since I've been able to peek at the forum. You're not done yet? I figured you'd already started the Stanley.  ;D

Always an inspiration to read (most) of your posts.  :Lol:
Well, I was going to start the Stanley but you were not here to watch, so I waited...   :Jester:

I'm always watching you. Always. You need watching.  ;D
True. Very true!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on March 14, 2019, 11:27:39 PM
Dog you been working those poor elfs overtime man give them a break..... :lolb:
Looking good Chris and looking sweeter then a bowl of sugar... :ThumbsUp:


 :popcorn:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 14, 2019, 11:29:20 PM
Dog you been working those poor elfs overtime man give them a break..... :lolb:
Looking good Chris and looking sweeter then a bowl of sugar... :ThumbsUp:


 :popcorn:
Don
We had some warm weather today, so all the elves and I hopped in the sleigh and went and took my mother out for lunch and a walk - then I threw them back in the shop!   :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 14, 2019, 11:37:07 PM
So, for those of you watching :paranoia: ....

Got the last of the steam chest mounting holes drilled/tapped/assembled:
(https://i.postimg.cc/KvzRxv2Q/IMG-4720.jpg)
Then I started laying out the lines for the recessed panels and lettering in the lids, which will look like this:
(https://i.postimg.cc/sgzf1jFt/Lid.jpg)

It quickly became clear that this lettering is a LOT smaller than the ones on the track supports, and it is not really practical to carve it in myself like the supports. So, I think I will do like I did on the Lombard boiler front plate, and have them photo etched and inset them into place. Does not cost much, and looks really nice. So, will make up the artwork for these panels (smaller ones for the steering engine too) plus the numbers for the boiler doors and send them off.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gary.a.ayres on March 14, 2019, 11:57:52 PM
Wow... these look more and more impressive.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 15, 2019, 12:42:42 AM
Thanks Gary - still quite a ways to go on them, but all the big parts are there now. Next are all the internal bits, conrods/pistons/valves/levers/ports/passages/glands/etc.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on March 15, 2019, 01:03:17 AM
Dog you been working those poor elfs overtime man give them a break..... :lolb:
Looking good Chris and looking sweeter then a bowl of sugar... :ThumbsUp:


 :popcorn:
Don
We had some warm weather today, so all the elves and I hopped in the sleigh and went and took my mother out for lunch and a walk - then I threw them back in the shop!   :LittleDevil:

If giving them a brake doesn't work threaten to but them in that dimension where the days are 40hours long and they have to shovel coal.
PS The big guy north of me (I am not talking about Brian) wants the sleigh back something about a recall on the brakes.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 15, 2019, 02:00:05 AM
Dog you been working those poor elfs overtime man give them a break..... :lolb:
Looking good Chris and looking sweeter then a bowl of sugar... :ThumbsUp:


 :popcorn:
Don
We had some warm weather today, so all the elves and I hopped in the sleigh and went and took my mother out for lunch and a walk - then I threw them back in the shop!   :LittleDevil:

If giving them a brake doesn't work threaten to but them in that dimension where the days are 40hours long and they have to shovel coal.
PS The big guy north of me (I am not talking about Brian) wants the sleigh back something about a recall on the brakes.


 :lolb:


So if the brakes break, can I just throw a reindeer under the runners?   :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gary.a.ayres on March 15, 2019, 07:16:54 AM
Dog you been working those poor elfs overtime man give them a break.....

Don

Ah, you guys. You are so superstitious. Don't you know they aren't really elves?

They're aliens...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 15, 2019, 12:33:31 PM
Dog you been working those poor elfs overtime man give them a break.....

Don

Ah, you guys. You are so superstitious. Don't you know they aren't really elves?

They're aliens...
I am not an alien!  I am siccing the Elves Union on you!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Captain Jerry on March 15, 2019, 12:50:27 PM
Chris,


I am greatly relieved at your decision to have the letters and numbers photo etched.  If you had attempted and succeeded in cranking that out on a manual mill, I would have had to revisit my thinking regarding the handling of little shop assistants. Being of Irish decent, my small assistants are less likely to be moved by a plate of cookies but seem to appreciate a good Irish Whiskey. I don't allow that in the shop but I have been known to have a drop in the evening while sitting at the computer.  Their help is sometimes evident in the output of silly drawings.


Jerry
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 15, 2019, 12:56:35 PM
I would not have attempted the lettering on the mill, like the track support lettering it would be done by hand with the high speed air rotary tool and dental bits. These letters are just too small though. I have sent the artwork off for a quote.
Keep an eye on your elves, drunk shop elves swinging from the chandelier can really make a mess!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on March 15, 2019, 02:38:57 PM
Especially if they've been drinking egg nog........ :Lol:

The engines look great Chris.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 15, 2019, 05:37:10 PM
Got the recesses in the steam chest lids cut:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y0k9j1L5/IMG-4721.jpg)
and cut the bars to length for the con rods and the end caps, then drilled/tapped for some 1-72 screws to hold them together:
(https://i.postimg.cc/fyKbdJxJ/IMG-4727.jpg)
Con rod blanks are ready for drilling and shaping...
(https://i.postimg.cc/SNSRhfh8/IMG-4728.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 15, 2019, 07:49:43 PM
And drilled/bored the big end bearing holes (will get bronze bearings in them)
(https://i.postimg.cc/PrkMWxwK/IMG-4729.jpg)
then started drilling the other ends for the crosshead pins - using a bit of aluminum bar as a jig to get them all to match lengths easily. The brass bushing around the screw has a shoulder to hold down the part, and the OD of the bushing lower end matches the holes in the parts.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Wb6wXvmV/IMG-4730.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Admiral_dk on March 15, 2019, 09:15:52 PM
Like everyone else I'm still amazed by the amount of work and the quality you get done  :praise2:

Still  :popcorn:    :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 15, 2019, 09:33:04 PM
Like everyone else I'm still amazed by the amount of work and the quality you get done  :praise2:

Still  :popcorn:    :cheers:
Thanks! Great to have you along for the journey!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gary.a.ayres on March 16, 2019, 08:46:23 AM

I am not an alien!  I am siccing the Elves Union on you!   :Lol:

I meant no negative judgement. As it happens I have some alien DNA myself.

Flying saucer landed in the hills of south-west Scotland 5000 years ago...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 16, 2019, 06:26:27 PM

I am not an alien!  I am siccing the Elves Union on you!   :Lol:

I meant no negative judgement. As it happens I have some alien DNA myself.

Flying saucer landed in the hills of south-west Scotland 5000 years ago...
So you were in those Highlander movies....   :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 16, 2019, 06:31:45 PM
Back in the shop this afternoon for a bit, got a start shaping down the con-rods. First screwed it to a aluminum block and centered the big end on the rotary table, and milled in the shallow circle on both sides. The sections where the bolts go through are slightly narrower than the center, and this defines the edge between them. The shelves where the bolt ends are will be taken in a little in a future step. The circle ends where it meets the arm of the con rod.

(https://i.postimg.cc/g0yzVQWx/IMG-4731.jpg)
Did both sides of all six con rods. Then moved the holder so that the small end is centered on the rotary table, and started milling the small end down round, stopping where it meets that end of the arm:
(https://i.postimg.cc/gJYYNszN/IMG-4732.jpg)
A few more to get to that stage, then I'll mill the sides of the center arm down....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gary.a.ayres on March 16, 2019, 06:34:02 PM
Nice setup with the aluminium block  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gary.a.ayres on March 16, 2019, 06:35:21 PM

So you were in those Highlander movies....   :ROFL:

Just as an extra. Anonymous face in the crowd. The way I like it...  8)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 16, 2019, 06:36:59 PM
Nice setup with the aluminium block  :ThumbsUp:
Better/cheaper to chew up some scrap ali than to keep digging into the steel tooling plate with all the work to drill/tap all those holes!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 16, 2019, 08:52:14 PM
More done on the con rods, all the small ends are rounded and got the sides taken in as well. To make sure the tapers were even, I got one side adjusted to connect the dots, then locked the rotary table. After doing one side, just flipped the parts over to take the other side of the taper down.
(https://i.postimg.cc/g0CnHQrR/IMG-4733.jpg)
All 6 parts have the tapers done, last will be to take the bottom caps to size (shown in blue around the bottom end of the crank pin holes) and square up the front ends of the bolt flanges.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mD7hXjFn/IMG-4734.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 90LX_Notch on March 16, 2019, 08:55:06 PM
Just checking in.  Outstanding work as usual Chris.

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 17, 2019, 01:23:53 PM
Thanks Bob!
Before starting in on the big end caps this morning, just had to see how the slew engine looks in place. Its not easy to get into place with the hoist engine already there - if I was going to build another Marion 91 (which I am not!) I would make and install the slew engine before the hoist engine. Hmmm... though that would make the hoist engine tougher to get at too... Oh well, all tricky to get at! Two ways to get the engine into place - either remove the floor plate and come in under the hoist steam chest, or remove the slew winding drum/axle and lower it in from the upper front. Either way, its like putting a V8 engine/transmission into a Miata!
Here are a couple of pics, tough to get an angle to see it all.

(https://i.postimg.cc/XqSmBZBd/IMG-4736.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/yxm5mV05/IMG-4737.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on March 17, 2019, 03:40:07 PM
Damn Dog a little tight but hey no step for a stepper right?   :stickpoke:



 :popcornsmall:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on March 17, 2019, 04:30:08 PM
Sure isn't much extra space around the slew engine Chris, but the engine looks great. Maybe the Marion plant installed the slew engine first and built the hoist around it?

Or maybe they had a 12 foot crane-operated cast iron shoehorn?  :naughty:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 17, 2019, 06:05:10 PM
When I was out there taking pictures and measurements of the real one, the only way to get from one side of the cab to the other in front of the boiler was to climb over the top of the slew engine and the backstay. Even up at the operator station there is no clear path due to the slew chains and idler wheels. Walking down the sides of the hoist engine meant putting one foot in front of the other, and balancing by putting one hand on the guards over the gears as I went. They used all possible space for the machinery, limited by the standard width of a railway car. Most of the old photos I have show a set of planks hung on the outside by home made brackets at about floor level, to make a path from front to back without getting eaten by the gears! Modern day health and safety inspectors would have their heads explode....!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 17, 2019, 06:19:27 PM
A bunch of little stuff accomplished today, started with cutting down the big end caps like all the other bearing caps, flat at the ends, curve in the middle...
(https://i.postimg.cc/4yKdzD9k/IMG-4738.jpg)
and trimmed the front of the cap screw flanges
(https://i.postimg.cc/pXFrytvK/IMG-4739.jpg)
The con rods all together around the campfire...
(https://i.postimg.cc/nhfzDwVg/IMG-4741.jpg)
And time for a test fit on the engines to make sure everything clears - needed to take a couple of burs off the crank pins but they all move around okay. The bronze bearings have not been made yet, so they dont fit properly yet.
(https://i.postimg.cc/tJLgDB31/IMG-4743.jpg)
All the cranks back in place, looks like the con rod profile is fine, no contact with the crosshead bores in any position - the 3D model showed they should be fine, but always nice to verify in real world.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Hk0L44Vx/IMG-4744.jpg)
Closer view:
(https://i.postimg.cc/G3N9cmWc/IMG-4745.jpg)
So, next up I think will be the con rod bearings - split ones at the big end, tubes at the front end.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gary.a.ayres on March 17, 2019, 09:05:16 PM
Just... Wow!

:whoohoo:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 17, 2019, 09:27:43 PM
Gary, by my latest count, only 44 more parts to make. For each of the three engines. So, almost done...   :insane:




 :DrinkPint:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gary.a.ayres on March 18, 2019, 12:46:12 AM
It's just as well that you enjoy this pastime then.... :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 18, 2019, 06:32:07 PM
It's just as well that you enjoy this pastime then.... :Lol:
Oh yeah, glad my hobby is not sitting in waiting rooms or on jury duty!!   :paranoia:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 18, 2019, 06:38:34 PM
This morning I got a start on the big end bearings. Since these have to go on in the middle of the crankshaft rather than slipping onto the end like most of the others, making them as a two part bearing. Started with a short length of bearing bronze, and sawed it down the middle. Clamped in the three jaw (two jaws on one half, third on the other) it seemed to hold well, so went ahead and drilled/bored the end for the crank pin diameter (hoping for a snug fit that can be lapped to fit rather than a loose fit), and then turned the outside to be a snug fit in the con rod. The OD fit can be checked while on the lathe, the ID can only be done by measurement, so I will not be surprised if I have to remake one or two.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0Nd9CZQQ/IMG-4746.jpg)
Then slipped on the conrod and used a small hacksaw to part off the bearing from the parent stock. A little filing on the side and it should be good to go. Here are first two:
(https://i.postimg.cc/26kr9vbx/IMG-4747.jpg)
I'll check the fit on the crankshaft, and if good will loctite the bearings in place, and then can lap them to final fit if needed (expecting that to be the case on most if not all of them). Only had time to get this far before heading out for errands, back at it this afternoon...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 18, 2019, 09:28:25 PM
Rest of the split bearings are made - on the last set I had to switch to the 4-jaw, since the halves kept slipping in the 3-jaw. It worked fine for the first 4 bearings, but the last two no go, so switched over and finished them up. Only one set was too large an ID, rest are just right or a hair snug, will lap in fine I think. So, went ahead and loctited them in place. I did not want to risk glueing the cap to the main part, so I used a bit of flat bar and a clamping rig, just slipped the parts over the end and tightened the cap screws to hold it to set up.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QxJZBm6x/IMG-4749.jpg)
After they have set overnight, I'll file the edges flush and lap them to the crankshafts. The small end bearings will be simple tubes since they get held in place in the crossheads by a shoulder bolt through them.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on March 18, 2019, 11:35:15 PM
Still with you Dog keep it coming!.... :ThumbsUp:


  :popcornsmall:
Don


Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Robert Hornby on March 19, 2019, 12:12:47 AM
Chris, I have been following your superb build with great interest and admiration. So many components (probably in the thousands  :headscratch:) with, when they all come together, a masterpiece worthy of inspection by the most critical engineer on this planet. Well done - and more to come.  :pinkelephant: :pinkelephant: :cheers: :cheers:
Robert
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 19, 2019, 12:32:14 AM
Many thanks guys, much appreciated!


Robert, the complete CAD model lists it at a little over 3000 parts, not counting a lot of the small nuts and bolts. I tried getting the shop elves to count the parts, but Guinness impedes counting...   :embarassed: 


Before the slew and crowd engines it was weighing in at 74 pounds, with 3 engines, boiler, and cab still to go. Very involved, but its been like a series of smaller models on a big theme, am enjoying it a lot!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on March 19, 2019, 03:55:20 PM
but Guinness impedes counting... 
Enough of that stuff and it's hard to remember that eleventy-twelve comes after eleventy-eleven.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 19, 2019, 07:10:17 PM
but Guinness impedes counting... 
Enough of that stuff and it's hard to remember that eleventy-twelve comes after eleventy-eleven.

Don
:lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 19, 2019, 07:29:18 PM
Not much shop time today - did get the first pair of bearings lapped to the crankshaft, but the loctite red I used did not hold well at all. Maybe I should have used the green retaining compound version? Parts were quite clean and dry, but surfaces are very smooth. Maybe roughen up the mating surfaces and try the retaining version next...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 19, 2019, 08:23:18 PM
Not much shop time today - did get the first pair of bearings lapped to the crankshaft, but the loctite red I used did not hold well at all. Maybe I should have used the green retaining compound version? Parts were quite clean and dry, but surfaces are very smooth. Maybe roughen up the mating surfaces and try the retaining version next...
Did some experimenting and settled on filing a couple of tiny wicking notches across the steel under the bearings, and silver soldered them in. The loctite sticks great to stainless and 1144, pops right off bearing bronze.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gary.a.ayres on March 19, 2019, 10:01:53 PM
Fine work on those bearings. I watch and learn.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 19, 2019, 10:12:03 PM
I am learning too, this is the smallest split bearing I have ever done, first without the overhanging lips on the sides of the conrod too. Might have been easier to make the whole conrod from bronze, may do that on the steering engine later, which is same design but 30% smaller. Glad I am building to this scale, any smaller would be tough!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on March 20, 2019, 05:19:17 AM
GUINNESS!

You are on a slippy slop there sir!  :DrinkPint: :DrinkPint: you gotta get in the kitchen & get that cookie baking underway....& way more than one tray! If your elves get a taste for  :DrinkPint: you build will slow to that of the rest of us!

Keep up the good work, always fun check in & see what you, errr the elves...., are up to

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 20, 2019, 05:55:00 PM
GUINNESS!

You are on a slippy slop there sir!  :DrinkPint: :DrinkPint: you gotta get in the kitchen & get that cookie baking underway....& way more than one tray! If your elves get a taste for  :DrinkPint: you build will slow to that of the rest of us!

Keep up the good work, always fun check in & see what you, errr the elves...., are up to

Cheers Kerrin
Still have a stock of cookies in the freezer, no worries there! And the elves... I me I... am still busy in the playshop!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 20, 2019, 05:57:46 PM
Got the rest of the big end bearings lapped today, used some Timesaver compound on them, spinning by hand and tightening the bolts down a bit at a time, them finishing with the crankshaft in the chuck and spinning it faster before cleaning them out and oiling. Then made up the small end bearings, which are simple tubes pressed into the con rods. These will ride on shoulder bolts through the crossheads.
(https://i.postimg.cc/nrLnSxGT/IMG-4750.jpg)
Looks like next up will be the crossheads themselves, made out of bronze...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on March 20, 2019, 07:25:53 PM
Great progress Chris!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on March 20, 2019, 11:44:34 PM
Great progress Chris......a few general questions..

1. do you blue the bushes prior to commencement of lapping?
2. do you use a piece of on size true straight bar as the lapping mandrel, or the actual bigend journals?
3. will you dowel the caps when on position, or just leave it to the bolts to align the caps when tightening down?

Derek   :DrinkPint:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 20, 2019, 11:52:59 PM
Great progress Chris......a few general questions..

1. do you blue the bushes prior to commencement of lapping?
2. do you use a piece of on size true straight bar as the lapping mandrel, or the actual bigend journals?
3. will you dowel the caps when on position, or just leave it to the bolts to align the caps when tightening down?

Derek   :DrinkPint:
Hi Derek,


I didn't blue them, I had bored the bearings intentionally slightly undersized, so they would lap to the actual size of the crank pins. Since the were soldered to the conrod halves, no need for pins. The bearings are so thin and narrow a pin would be tough anyway. The conrods are only .125 thick, the bearings half that thick at most. I used the actual conrods to lap since they all varied just a bit in diameter, so am being careful to keep them all paired together.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 21, 2019, 02:54:48 PM
Making up the crossheads, from some bearing bronze round bar. Started by turning the OD to be a slide fit in the guides, turning the boss on the end, and drilling/tapping the hole for the piston rod. Then moved the chuck over to the rotary table in its vertical mount, and milled off the sides...
(https://i.postimg.cc/RV4YpCQ9/IMG-4752.jpg)
and turned it another 90 degrees to drill the con rod pivot hole:
(https://i.postimg.cc/8P4028tv/IMG-4753.jpg)
Now, the milling could have been down with the rod held in a collet, but these bronze bars are extruded out oversize and a bit rough, so it was better to chuck it in the 3 jaw once and do everything in one go to ensure alignment.
Here are the first couple after parting off, doing the same on the rest:
(https://i.postimg.cc/jSjFK8FF/IMG-4754.jpg)
Thats only half the shaping - still need to take out the arc at the conrod end, and slot it for the con rod. Starting out with the mini vise up vertical in the mill vise, to do the first cut at the back end on each part:
(https://i.postimg.cc/W1ff4GRb/IMG-4755.jpg)
Next will be to angle the sides of that arc out to the edges, once all are done to this point.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 21, 2019, 04:47:39 PM
More on the crossheads, angled the parts to the side to mill in the straight section out to the corner:
(https://i.postimg.cc/YSsmsx4g/IMG-4756.jpg)
and up on end to mill the slot in the back, the mill leaves a rounded corner so those were finished off with the rotary tool and a tapered bur.
(https://i.postimg.cc/gJL6F6R7/IMG-4757.jpg)
One installed, moves freely, so on to the rest...
(https://i.postimg.cc/1XxV95r3/IMG-4758.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on March 21, 2019, 07:01:22 PM
I think reciprocating motion is going to happen soon...... :ThumbsUp:

(And not just by the elves swinging on the chandelier and flailing their arms!)  :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 21, 2019, 07:44:41 PM
I think reciprocating motion is going to happen soon...... :ThumbsUp:

(And not just by the elves swinging on the chandelier and flailing their arms!)  :ROFL:
The chandelier action has been going for years....   :rant:

Right now, there is one crosshead guide moving in one of the engines!  8)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqlfGdg2QQM
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on March 21, 2019, 09:11:59 PM
The crosshead and the rod seem to clear a certain broached squared area in the crosshead guide without any trouble..... :thinking:  :naughty:

Nicely done! Always amazed at your fast rate of work.  :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 22, 2019, 12:15:30 AM
The crosshead and the rod seem to clear a certain broached squared area in the crosshead guide without any trouble..... :thinking: :naughty:

Nicely done! Always amazed at your fast rate of work.  :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Yeah, wonder who taught me to make the broach tool...  :embarassed:
Most needed was two that had a bur sticking out.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Art K on March 22, 2019, 12:25:40 AM
Chris,
Looking good, seems you have several more parts done when I check in. Dangerous thing having Guinness anywhere near the shop elves you know how they are when they've had to much to drink, chucking things everywhere regardless of what project it's from. :mischief:
Art
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 22, 2019, 01:05:31 AM
Chris,
Looking good, seems you have several more parts done when I check in. Dangerous thing having Guinness anywhere near the shop elves you know how they are when they've had to much to drink, chucking things everywhere regardless of what project it's from. :mischief:
Art
Hmmm, that would explain the snow tires on the Shay loco...   :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Mike R on March 22, 2019, 01:18:49 AM
Please don't talk about snow - we're getting more of that tomorrow despite the calendar telling me its spring...
Great progress - your work craft inspires me to keep w**king so I can retire one day and play in my workshop.
Mike
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 22, 2019, 02:28:03 AM
Please don't talk about snow - we're getting more of that tomorrow despite the calendar telling me its spring...
Great progress - your work craft inspires me to keep w**king so I can retire one day and play in my workshop.
Mike
Correction, they are racing slicks on the locomotive!!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on March 22, 2019, 04:45:46 PM
Racing slicks on the locomotive would be perfectly acceptable.  As long as they also added the go fast stripes to the paint job.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on March 22, 2019, 05:04:08 PM
From the Elves Rumer Line I hear that they started out as Snow Tires but ended up as Racing Slicks. Chris you had better check your carving tools some of them may need sharpening.
Gerald. 
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 22, 2019, 05:07:05 PM
From the Elves Rumer Line I hear that they started out as Snow Tires but ended up as Racing Slicks. Chris you had better check your carving tools some of them may need sharpening.
Gerald.
They are plenty sharp now, the elves were using the spinning tires as buffing wheels during the burnouts...!
We have one more snowstorm coming tonight, hopefully the good weather comes to stay soon...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 22, 2019, 05:07:53 PM
Shop update - got the rest of the crossheads made just like the first one I showed, about to start on making the shoulder bolts to hold them to the con rods...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 23, 2019, 04:55:04 PM
Some time in the shop this afternoon, got a start on the crosshead pivot bolts. Turning them out of some 303 hex bar, center turned to a nice fit in the parts and the end threaded 4-40.
(https://i.postimg.cc/xjynhtZm/IMG-4762.jpg)
First two made, four more to go. After I took this picture I noticed that the thread is sticking a bit far out of the nut, so I trimmed that back - cannot leave much excess since the eccentric arm will come up right next to it when they are made.
(https://i.postimg.cc/tCqpjF0M/IMG-4764.jpg)
The nuts are some 'small pattern' ones I found a while back, so I did not have to make them up too, they are thin enough as is. I've noticed that the usual suppliers of 2-56 and 1-72 steel hex head screws hardly ever have them in stock anymore, must be the suppliers they get them from are going all socket head. AME still has them, but not in fully-threaded form, and their prices are quite a bit higher, but that may be the only source soon. They have always been the only place I could find 3-48 hex in steel rather than brass.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 23, 2019, 11:48:41 PM
The rest of the crosshead pins are done and installed. Next up... Ummm... Coin flip... The eccentric followers!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on March 24, 2019, 02:16:32 AM
Hi Chris, seems to me your build already has a few eccentric followers - me being one!  :lolb: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 24, 2019, 12:38:40 PM
Hi Chris, seems to me your build already has a few eccentric followers - me being one!  :lolb: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
:lolb: :lolb:   and I thought you were just a crank!   :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 24, 2019, 02:58:53 PM
Moving on to the more twisted bits...  :Lol:

Started on the eccentric followers this morning, cutting them from some 1/8"x3/4" brass stock. To keep the bolt holes perfectly aligned, decided to drill them before cutting off the cap. Ran the tap drill for 1-72 thread in the full depth, then the clearance drill in the height of the cap in the same setup.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6pfnf7nx/IMG-4766.jpg)
Sawed the cap off from the main blank, tapped the holes, and it is ready for boring the center hole:

(https://i.postimg.cc/bvYbCz9D/IMG-4767.jpg)
The line you can see in the photo is the joint to the cap, the band saw, cutting across the wide dimension, left a smooth enough edge that I did not need to mill it clean again. Will get the rest to this stage, then start drilling...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 24, 2019, 06:32:03 PM
All the blanks are drilled/cut/tapped, so on to boring the holes. Centered up the first one, drilled a starter hole and bored the center out to match the bottom of the slots in the eccentric (the eccentrics have a slot in the center of the bearing surface to keep the followers from sliding off to the side). Then bored one side out to match the top of the slots. So far so good.
(https://i.postimg.cc/R0xYhCnD/IMG-4768.jpg)
Then turned the part around, and had to re-center the hole to do the cut on the other side, since it never tightens up quite the same. I think I will set up an expanding mandrel for the second side cuts, otherwise this will take quite a while. Did get the first one fit to the eccentric well though:
(https://i.postimg.cc/5t5RCcBN/IMG-4769.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 24, 2019, 08:35:06 PM
I dug out the expanding arbor that I made for the followers on the hoist engine, and again it works great. Just had to turn a new diameter onto the step to fit these parts, and tried it out. Now I can drill/bore the hole to fit the bottom of the slots in the cams using the 4-jaw chuck, then use this arbor to counterbore in the steps to fit the lips on the slots - self centers, and allows removal and re-holding to test and tweak the fit onto the cams.

(https://i.postimg.cc/zfRd1yDQ/IMG-4770.jpg)
This will speed up the work a lot - still slow going with having to remove the crankshafts to test fit with, and keeping all the parts matched up. Still, gotta love tools that work!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on March 24, 2019, 11:05:44 PM
More great progress Chris.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:The elves' Guinness tab is going to be mighty hefty this month.....hope the wheelbarrow is at hand to transport them out of the shop to sober up.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Art K on March 25, 2019, 12:35:09 AM
I think the elves are drinking a bit much, now they're even changing tires on the loco when you leave the shop. Have you thought of rehab for them before they cease being productive members of society. :ROFL:
Art
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 25, 2019, 01:49:04 AM
More great progress Chris.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:The elves' Guinness tab is going to be mighty hefty this month.....hope the wheelbarrow is at hand to transport them out of the shop to sober up.
I may need a front end loader for the whole crew!   :Lol:


I think the elves are drinking a bit much, now they're even changing tires on the loco when you leave the shop. Have you thought of rehab for them before they cease being productive members of society. :ROFL:
Art
I'll try and find a good high school shop class for them to dry out in!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gary.a.ayres on March 25, 2019, 06:57:02 AM
Great progress!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on March 25, 2019, 07:03:46 PM
A "High School Shop class", what is this strange thing of which you speak???  Can't let the little darlings near sharp objects or power tools, they might hurt somebody.  You'd have better luck finding the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 25, 2019, 07:42:45 PM
A "High School Shop class", what is this strange thing of which you speak???  Can't let the little darlings near sharp objects or power tools, they might hurt somebody.  You'd have better luck finding the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

Don
Too true. I was thinking of how they were 40 years ago...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on March 25, 2019, 08:40:51 PM
The motto in my high school shop class : "Maim thy neighbour" (or it could have been, anyway). Lots of mishaps, most minor, none intentional. A lot of these little things that happened in the shop made sure they and bigger things never happened in peoples' work lives.

Most serious one I recall was a car falling off a two post hydraulic hoist when an air line broke off. Dropped the car hard, right out the (closed) back shop doors. Buckled it in the middle, just behind the front seat, totalling it.  A  :facepalm: moment. No one hurt, but it could have been real bad. Luckily it was the school principal's car. For some reason he didn't see the incident as the great learning opportunity that it was......  :hellno:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 26, 2019, 07:09:23 PM
The motto in my high school shop class : "Maim thy neighbour" (or it could have been, anyway). Lots of mishaps, most minor, none intentional. A lot of these little things that happened in the shop made sure they and bigger things never happened in peoples' work lives.

Most serious one I recall was a car falling off a two post hydraulic hoist when an air line broke off. Dropped the car hard, right out the (closed) back shop doors. Buckled it in the middle, just behind the front seat, totalling it.  A  :facepalm: moment. No one hurt, but it could have been real bad. Luckily it was the school principal's car. For some reason he didn't see the incident as the great learning opportunity that it was......  :hellno:
Did he find out you were all making bets on how far the car would bounce?   O:-)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 26, 2019, 07:11:23 PM
Okay, not much time in the playshop the last couple of days, been getting caught up on article writing and getting some outside time in.

I did get the last of the eccentric follower openings bored out - the expanding arbor really worked out well for that. Then I have started milling in the shapes on the caps:
(https://i.postimg.cc/BQtqxjWj/IMG-4772.jpg)
Once those are all done I'll start shaping the forward ends of each...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on March 26, 2019, 08:54:42 PM
The motto in my high school shop class : "Maim thy neighbour" (or it could have been, anyway). Lots of mishaps, most minor, none intentional. A lot of these little things that happened in the shop made sure they and bigger things never happened in peoples' work lives.

Most serious one I recall was a car falling off a two post hydraulic hoist when an air line broke off. Dropped the car hard, right out the (closed) back shop doors. Buckled it in the middle, just behind the front seat, totalling it.  A  :facepalm: moment. No one hurt, but it could have been real bad. Luckily it was the school principal's car. For some reason he didn't see the incident as the great learning opportunity that it was......  :hellno:
Did he find out you were all making bets on how far the car would bounce?   O:-)

Sshhhh!

PS I'll bet you will be glad when all the caps on the shovel engine are finished!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 26, 2019, 09:23:24 PM
The motto in my high school shop class : "Maim thy neighbour" (or it could have been, anyway). Lots of mishaps, most minor, none intentional. A lot of these little things that happened in the shop made sure they and bigger things never happened in peoples' work lives.

Most serious one I recall was a car falling off a two post hydraulic hoist when an air line broke off. Dropped the car hard, right out the (closed) back shop doors. Buckled it in the middle, just behind the front seat, totalling it.  A  :facepalm: moment. No one hurt, but it could have been real bad. Luckily it was the school principal's car. For some reason he didn't see the incident as the great learning opportunity that it was......  :hellno:
Did he find out you were all making bets on how far the car would bounce?   O:-)

Sshhhh!

PS I'll bet you will be glad when all the caps on the shovel engine are finished!
Milling the shape on the caps did not take long at all, just a few minutes apiece since they are only a few cuts per arc, they are all done. I've started milling the front pieces on the followers. It was boring the stepped holes for the eccentrics that took a while, lots of on/off the arbor testing for a good fit. I am keeping the followers, engine blocks, conrods, crossheads, cranks, etc together as sets to make sure the lapped in parts stay with the mating parts - it is keeping all that straight and assembling/disassembling pieces that is actually taking longer. Maybe a set of labelled bins with dividers would have been better. Making multiple copies of an engine all at once is quicker than one at a time, but it is a lot to track!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on March 26, 2019, 11:20:18 PM
Some of the old diemakers I trained with years ago  :old: had a workable system of ID'ing the various blocks in the progressive dies they were making. Often the various levels in the die would have several hundred parts. For die plate level components they used an "A" punch followed by a sequential number. (If the pieces were large enough they also punched the 4 digit tool number into the pieces too, just FYI). Next level up, the stripper, they used a "B" punch followed by a sequential number. Next level up, the punches, they used "C" punch and sequential number. Punch plate was next, marked "D" and numbers. Cams, rockers etc were "E" with numbers. Die set was "F" with numbers.

Maybe this could be useful for your engines. Maybe a letter for each engine, with an added L or R for left and right cyls, and a number for each part of that engine. Just food for thought.

You could also use centre punch dots to ID the parts, but after about part number 20 they pieces will look like they have the measles or as if they were hit with 120 rounds of 30.06 like a road sign in Wyoming.  :Lol:

How are the elves' letter punch engraving skills?  :naughty:

If they are still shaky from recent Guinness or Navy rum imbibement events, recently I saw a set of 1/16" high letter and number punches at McMaster Carr website, their part 1558T101. I think it was about USD $70 for letters and numbers. Just a thought.   :thinking:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 27, 2019, 01:06:48 AM
I do have a set of number punches, but they are a bit large for these small parts. A set of the smaller ones would do the trick, should look them up! I'll check mcmaster. Thanks, I should have gotten smaller ones a long time ago!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 27, 2019, 01:41:38 AM
Just ordered some of the smaller number-only sets (1/16 and 3/32), they are pretty cheap at Mcmaster, needed some more bronze too so threw that in. They are not far from here, will have them Thursday.   :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gary.a.ayres on March 27, 2019, 06:56:49 AM
Cool idea, numbering the parts.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 27, 2019, 12:07:07 PM
Starting in on the shaping for the front halves of the eccentrics - started with notching in the sides in front of the bolt flanges in the sides, then will taper in to the lead edge.
(https://i.postimg.cc/526fW5Zm/IMG-4773.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on March 27, 2019, 01:59:17 PM
Still with you Dog....... :ThumbsUp:



 :popcornsmall:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 27, 2019, 02:39:28 PM
Thanks Don!  Heading out for a fish fry with some friends in a bit - not cajun style, more New England, but still very tasty!
This morning got the sides tapered in with the mill, then used a half-round file to give it some curve.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MKGcPFmP/IMG-4776.jpg)
And drilling the holes for the rod leading up to the valve lever:
(https://i.postimg.cc/MKrnhmsW/IMG-4777.jpg)
The other end of the rods will have a block with a hole to take the pivot pin on the end of the lever...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on March 27, 2019, 02:42:18 PM
Sheesh - over 3500 posts and this thing is a still long way from making steam.  You got some sort of a record going here yet Chris?

Anybody want to start a pool to pick the post number when Chris starts yelling "It's ALIVE, it's ALIVE"?  The elves won't allowed in on this one, they'd cheat.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 27, 2019, 03:04:57 PM
Sheesh - over 3500 posts and this thing is a still long way from making steam.  You got some sort of a record going here yet Chris?

Anybody want to start a pool to pick the post number when Chris starts yelling "It's ALIVE, it's ALIVE"?  The elves won't allowed in on this one, they'd cheat.

Don
Well, just checked the forum stats, and this one has the high count for number of posts. Beating out my other thread on the Lombard!

I'd enter myself - very high number, and have the elves enter a bunch of posts reading - "nope, not yet!"   :LittleDevil:

I am guessing it will be completely done sometime this fall, give or take a season... And reserve the right to switch to Down-Under seasons if need be!   :Lol:
Still to go, off the top of my head:
- finish slew/crowd engines - month or so to go at least
- install slew/crowd on floor and boom, hook up controls
- make steering engine, mini version of slew engine (have to hire George for that one maybe)
- boiler & all controls/accessories- water tanks
- piping for steam/exhaust- cab frame- cab interior racks/benches/etc
- controls hanging from roof for hoist/steering engines
- removeable cab walls/roof
- doors/hinges- build a crane to lift the beast onto a cart   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on March 27, 2019, 03:33:55 PM
You forgot the radio control and CCTV so the elves don't have to go out in the heat/cold to run this beast.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 27, 2019, 04:36:55 PM
You forgot the radio control and CCTV so the elves don't have to go out in the heat/cold to run this beast.

Don
They should still have their parkas from when we all worked for the big guy up north.  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 27, 2019, 08:04:45 PM
Making up the front arms for the eccentric followers - round rod with a fitting on the end to take the pivot pin from the lever which takes the motion up to the valve rod on top of the engine. The fittings are just a square bar with a small hole drilled in - as usual when making a series of small parts, left them as a long bar to drill all the holes:
(https://i.postimg.cc/MKqWdP1c/IMG-4778.jpg)
Then chucked in 4-jaw on the lathe to drill the end hole and part the off one at a time:
(https://i.postimg.cc/rFjqb19f/IMG-4779.jpg)
And used some loctite retaining compound on the rods to glue on the fittings - will let those set up, then cut the rods to length and loctite them into the followers. I want the length of each rod so that at middle of the stroke the pivot hole is directly under the pivot point of the lever.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rwpqLDnM/IMG-4780.jpg)
From here out, most of the parts remaining are small fiddly-bits, except for the pistons which are just small-ish.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gary.a.ayres on March 28, 2019, 06:41:53 AM
Always interesting to see how you do things.

 :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 28, 2019, 01:55:23 PM
Last night I got the rods trimmed to length and loctited into the followers. The inside edges of the end pieces were filed back to the edge of the rods so there would not be any chance of the crossheads snagging them on the way past.
(https://i.postimg.cc/L87yZxcb/IMG-4782.jpg)
The cranks were all assembled:
(https://i.postimg.cc/6pTj3kmZ/IMG-4781.jpg)
and I am getting them fit into the engine blocks. There are a few places that needed a little filing for clearance, first one is together and moving freely:
(https://i.postimg.cc/W3cX5hbm/IMG-4783.jpg)
You can see in the slot where the eccentric rod comes up - it will connect to a lever in the bearing on top and another lever will move the valve rods up in the steam chest.
A view from the end:
(https://i.postimg.cc/YSWdN1kq/IMG-4784.jpg)
An awful lot of stuff in a 2" wide block!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on March 28, 2019, 02:24:06 PM
VERY tight spacing for the rotating assembly! Looks great - terrific progress.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Just a thought re eccentric straps - how confident are you about the loctite bond from the round rod to the eccentric strap and the end blocks? I'm just thinking that if a joint or joints ever let go it may be a heck of a job to get to them to repair them. Could the eccentric arms be made from flat stock and pinned / silver soldered to the eccentric follower plates in the tapered area? Small pivot hole in end could be jig-drilled at exact centres to the large hole after soldering. The strap link would be be just as thin as the rod and block, and it would have very strong joints. Hate to suggest back-tracking, but may be worthwhile. Just food for thought.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on March 28, 2019, 06:13:09 PM
I'm with cnr6400 on this one.  Normally you would only be concerned about the shear strength of the Loctite - at least I think it's shear strength.  When you open up the side of the part you need to be looking at the peel strength more than the shear strength.  I'm not sure, but I don't think Loctite is that great for peel strength.

It might hold for 50 years, or it might let go the first time you put steam to it.  Have the elves silver solder those suckers and don't worry about them anymore.  Or don't you trust the elves with a torch?

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 28, 2019, 06:25:03 PM
Those rods go .350" into the followers, and .225" into the end fittings. The side that was filed down is only 1/4 of the way to the center of the hole, so still lots of the hole holding it, on 3/4 of the circle. It cannot peel off to the other side, and the retaining compound seems pretty strong on these joints, I think they are fine. If I am wrong, its just a matter of unscrewing the base cap to pull the follower, the crank can stay in place. They could be silver soldered in place if needed, but I don't want to change the shapes, they match the real one.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: RonGinger on March 29, 2019, 02:15:42 AM
I just went back and looked at post 3245, the CAD drawing of the engine. I see that each side has a crank that drives a shaft in the three bearings on top of the engine, then a second crank drives the slide valve. That shaft must be split in the center journal? You cant have each end of the shaft being rocked by the eccentric on that cylinder. What holds that rocker shaft to keep it sliding out of the bearings?

What am I missing?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 29, 2019, 11:46:07 AM
I just went back and looked at post 3245, the CAD drawing of the engine. I see that each side has a crank that drives a shaft in the three bearings on top of the engine, then a second crank drives the slide valve. That shaft must be split in the center journal? You cant have each end of the shaft being rocked by the eccentric on that cylinder. What holds that rocker shaft to keep it sliding out of the bearings?

What am I missing?
You are right Ron, that rod is split in the middle bearing. They really didnt need that center one, but I think they had it to keep the rod from twisting in one narrow bearing. The levers on either side of the bearing keep it from shifting to the side. That render was done from an early design, I had the lever on one side in the wrong place, fixed that later on.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 29, 2019, 01:05:32 PM
Ron, here is a newer screen capture of how the levers/rod look after I corrected the position a while back. The center cap is removed to show the split in the rod - it is hard to tell on the original engine, given all the dirt/grease on it, and without dismantling (which I am not allowed to do, obviously), exactly where the joins were. It is possible that they had a center rod down the whole length, or did it like I did with a split in the center and just a socket joint there, lots of ways they could have done it.
(https://i.postimg.cc/15bQpH0T/ValveRod.jpg)
This does show how the bearing caps keep the levers from shifting sideways though.
Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 29, 2019, 06:05:57 PM
Not much shop time yesterday, back in today, and got the other two engines fettled and assembled, all are turning over nicely now after easing a few binding spots at the end of the broached recess in the side. I think I'll go back and make the piston rod glands in the cylinder bottom plates next, then the piston rods/pistons, and work my way up to the valves from there....
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 30, 2019, 12:56:30 AM
Got the piston rod glands started - centered the bottom caps in the mill on the holes drilled back when they were made, and counter drilled to fit the o-rings. Used a regular twist drill, which leaves the bottom of the hole a cone which helps compress in the o-ring as the gland is tightened.
(https://i.postimg.cc/j2MNMYp4/IMG-4785.jpg)
Did all three of the caps, then started turning down the gland caps. These are drilled to match the cap holes, and turned to fit the counter drilled holes closely. The small end is long enough to reach down to the o-ring and leave another .025" or so to have compression room, which is plenty, they wont be tightened down all the way, just enough to seal.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Wp8MN0dq/IMG-4786.jpg)
Made up two for each engine:
(https://i.postimg.cc/9Ffyrz98/IMG-4787.jpg)
Next time will drill/tap for the screws to tighten them in with....



Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Captain Jerry on March 30, 2019, 12:54:59 PM
Chris, I am following along and enjoying the fine detail of your project and your methods.  Looking at the valve linkage and the pivoting rods on top of the crosshead guide, they seem to be crying out for some Zerk fittings.


Jerry
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 30, 2019, 01:11:24 PM
Chris, I am following along and enjoying the fine detail of your project and your methods.  Looking at the valve linkage and the pivoting rods on top of the crosshead guide, they seem to be crying out for some Zerk fittings.


Jerry
Yup, the originals had oil cups and grease points, but on this scale that would be tough since the followers are so thin. Maybe some dummy ones... A drop of light oil on the joints does wick in well.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on March 30, 2019, 06:46:56 PM
Is it true that one piston or valve gland in the hand is worth four on the floor ?

(sorry, I'll get my coat on the way out.....forgot to issue the bad pun alert)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 30, 2019, 06:51:23 PM
Is it true that one piston or valve gland in the hand is worth four on the floor ?

(sorry, I'll get my coat on the way out.....forgot to issue the bad pun alert)
Now we know where that keg of Guinness went...   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on March 30, 2019, 07:06:04 PM
>urp< I resemble that remark, ossifer!  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 30, 2019, 08:06:25 PM
Not a lot of shop time today, had to go bail out CNR...
Did get the piston glands drilled/tapped and installed. Used a nut/bolt to hold them in place for drilling. The one at upper right has the screws and o-rings installed.

(https://i.postimg.cc/bNNRDCh0/IMG-4788.jpg)
I've started cutting/threading the ends on the piston rods, pics on that as it goes on...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on March 30, 2019, 09:11:02 PM
I like the way you have attached the piston rod glands. I've always done it by one external thread on the gland and a matching internal thread on the endcap. I find that with the method I have used its very difficult to keep things aligned and not put a bind on the piston rod.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 30, 2019, 09:37:14 PM
I like the way you have attached the piston rod glands. I've always done it by one external thread on the gland and a matching internal thread on the endcap. I find that with the method I have used its very difficult to keep things aligned and not put a bind on the piston rod.---Brian
I've done it this way a number of times, works nicely since the pressure on the ring is adjustable. The holes are a little larger than the piston rod so it does not rub on the metal. If it was visible at all on the finished engine (not, since the crosshead guide surrounds it) I would cut down the sides and taper the ends around the screws to make it look like a typical packing gland.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on March 31, 2019, 12:26:42 AM
Chris....something  :Argue:....is playing tricks in my mind......I see the split shaft with each 1/2 or longitudinal section on a common axis

So why is the axis of the body of the centre bearing that covers the split shaft further toward the engine top end than the outer two bearing housings?


Or, is it just an optical illusion?  :facepalm:

Derek   :shrug:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 31, 2019, 12:33:15 AM
Chris....something  :Argue: ....is playing tricks in my mind......I see the split shaft with each 1/2 or longitudinal section on a common axis

So why is the axis of the body of the centre bearing that covers the split shaft further toward the engine top end than the outer two bearing housings?

Derek   :shrug:
Its not - remember that I hid the top cap of the center bearing to show the split. I think you are comparing the top of the cap on each end with the top of the base in the center?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: MJM460 on March 31, 2019, 12:51:49 AM
Hi Chris, going like a train as usual.  Well, I know it’s not a train, but “going like a shovel” just does not have the same ring to it.

By coincidence, I was at the same stage of making a single gland of the similar design yesterday.  Of course, today you are way ahead of me, but can I please ask how did you clamp that gland in place while you drilled through the stud holes to the cylinder head?  Or did you coordinate the gland flange first, then just spot the cylinder heads?

Really great progress on your part, and I am delighted to find little things that I can learn learn by watching, while I continue to be amazed by your work.

MJM460

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 31, 2019, 02:18:23 AM
Hi Chris, going like a train as usual.  Well, I know it’s not a train, but “going like a shovel” just does not have the same ring to it.

By coincidence, I was at the same stage of making a single gland of the similar design yesterday.  Of course, today you are way ahead of me, but can I please ask how did you clamp that gland in place while you drilled through the stud holes to the cylinder head?  Or did you coordinate the gland flange first, then just spot the cylinder heads?

Really great progress on your part, and I am delighted to find little things that I can learn learn by watching, while I continue to be amazed by your work.

MJM460
Hi MJM,
The gland has a short cylinder that fits into the hole in the plate, so that locates the holes in the two parts into one axis. I put a nut and bolt through the holes to squeeze them together like a clamp, then drilled the two screw holes with the tap drill. The gland was then counterbored out to the clearance size while still clamped together - just went down by the thickness of the gland disc.

Does that make sense? In the photo from that post, you can see the top of the hex head screws through the hole in the glands - that is through the piston rod hole.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 31, 2019, 02:23:48 AM
Hi Derek - looks like you updated your photo with the red/yellow lined box - that does not line up since you did not make the box long enough at the front. Here is another screen grab with the center bearing cap shown again:

(https://i.postimg.cc/44rcvsj1/caps1.jpg)

And a top view to show they do line up:

(https://i.postimg.cc/T2ymWpNw/caps-2.jpg)

No optical delusions needed. The ortho projections do make the eye do odd things though, since it is expecting perspective.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on March 31, 2019, 03:19:14 AM
Thanks Chris......

As MJM notes, it is a learning curve for many [certainly me included]......but I would rather markup & place a few RED lines in question with a copy rather than just accept without understanding

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: MJM460 on March 31, 2019, 03:22:24 AM
Thanks Chris, that makes perfect sense, I missed that hex head in the middle.

I will go out this afternoon and see what I can do.

MJM460

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 31, 2019, 12:49:04 PM
Thanks Chris, that makes perfect sense, I missed that hex head in the middle.

I will go out this afternoon and see what I can do.

MJM460
What are you building?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 31, 2019, 05:03:01 PM
Thanks Chris......

As MJM notes, it is a learning curve for many [certainly me included]......but I would rather markup & place a few RED lines in question with a copy rather than just accept without understanding

Derek
No problem at all, ask away anytime anything is unclear.   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 31, 2019, 05:09:13 PM
Got the pistons made up this morning, started with threading the bottom end of the piston rods to attach to the crossheads, and a short thread at the top for the pistons. A shoulder was turned in for the piston head, so the nut at the top will compress it onto the shoulder and square to the rod. When all else is ready for assembly, a little loctite will go onto that end of the rod to retain the piston.
(https://i.postimg.cc/905ZHgrv/IMG-4791.jpg)
The piston heads were turned up as a group, the OD slightly smaller than the bore so the O-ring can form the seal. The rod was notched to form 1/4" thick pistons, then one at a time grooved for the o-ring until it was a nice sliding fit in the cylinder, then the piece was parted off and repeat on the next.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mkYML39h/IMG-4794.jpg)
Assembled pistons:
(https://i.postimg.cc/kMKWvCH9/IMG-4796.jpg)
They all seal well, so on to the next steps. Which are... um, think the valve levers would be good to do next.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on March 31, 2019, 06:12:23 PM
Thanks for the bail-out Chris.  C:-) The wheelbarrow ride didn't leave much of a mark at all.  :Lol:

The pistons and rods look great. Look forward to the valve levers and valves.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:(especially the valves with the sneaky bypass passage. Got some ideas how to do the ones for my B-E B-2 shovel engines, but always game to see a new approach by the shop elves. as long as they don't approach with a keg....... :ShakeHead:)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 31, 2019, 07:07:55 PM
Thanks for the bail-out Chris.  C:-) The wheelbarrow ride didn't leave much of a mark at all.  :Lol:

The pistons and rods look great. Look forward to the valve levers and valves.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: (especially the valves with the sneaky bypass passage. Got some ideas how to do the ones for my B-E B-2 shovel engines, but always game to see a new approach by the shop elves. as long as they don't approach with a keg....... :ShakeHead: )
The valving on this engine is quite unique (read sneaky) - it works the same as what I learned from the Marion patents on the engine, but I simplified the passages quite a bit, since they cast them in and I need to be able to drill/mill them in. The center valve will be a d-valve style rather than a spool valve, but result is the same in that case - its the two cylinder valves that are double-decker-d-valves, stay tuned on those!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: fumopuc on March 31, 2019, 07:56:26 PM
Hi Chris, great progress. Does these pistons have a floting fit at the piston rods ?
If not, may be assemble machining , the last .001' of outer diameter, will be helpfull for a good sliding in the cylinder cover.




I mean the rod clamped in the chuck an final machining of the piston.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 31, 2019, 08:41:43 PM
Hi Chris, great progress. Does these pistons have a floting fit at the piston rods ?
If not, may be assemble machining , the last .001' of outer diameter, will be helpfull for a good sliding in the cylinder cover.




I mean the rod clamped in the chuck an final machining of the piston.
Hi Achim,
The pistons are a few thou smaller than the bores of the cylinders, and the piston rods are slightly smaller than the holes in the end caps. The O-rings make up the difference in the sizes so they seal the pressure - also this lets the pistons float just slightly, though the other end of the piston rods are held  at the crossheads. The pistons themselves are rigidly attached to the piston rods - I did chuck the piston rods up and spun them once the pistons were attached to ensure that they were well centered and the pistons were not wobbling. If they had wobbled, I would have remade them, since it would have resulted in tight spots. I have done it this way on the Lombard, Shay, and Corliss engines with very good results.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on March 31, 2019, 08:44:55 PM
Just noticed I forgot to include a picture of the assembly
(https://i.postimg.cc/mZQkXyG1/IMG-4797.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on March 31, 2019, 11:59:59 PM
Now that’s starting to look the part Dog. It just keeps getting better always great work Chris!.... :ThumbsUp:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on April 01, 2019, 12:29:58 AM
Chrris.....

Possibly I have missed it in the text, but are the pistons themselves a Grey Iron?........... that bar stock looks very smooth & shiny & I cannot see any shavings.....

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 01, 2019, 12:58:49 AM
Chrris.....

Possibly I have missed it in the text, but are the pistons themselves a Grey Iron?........... that bar stock looks very smooth & shiny & I cannot see any shavings.....

Derek
The pistons and rods are 303 stainless, cuts nice with fine chips. I had brushed the chips away before taking the pictures. I like the 303, takes a nice cut. The engine blocks and cylinders are 1144 stressproof.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 01, 2019, 01:00:38 AM
Now that’s starting to look the part Dog. It just keeps getting better always great work Chris!.... :ThumbsUp:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Thanks Don, they are finally to the point where things can move.   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 01, 2019, 04:22:51 PM
Time to get some leverage on this project...  :Lol:

Started on the levers/rods that take the movement from down at the end of the eccentric followers and bring it up to the valve rods at the steam chest. The levers are being made from some thin tool steel bar, drilled while still on the longer bar for ease of holding.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y9NgYxvw/IMG-4798.jpg)
Turned up brass bearings to go in between the levers, and made up the set for silver soldering:
(https://i.postimg.cc/MHWBDjBf/IMG-4799.jpg)
Soldering is done, and parts in soaking in the pickle now to clean them up. If all the joints hold, will take them to the belt sander to shape the levers down around the holes...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on April 01, 2019, 04:31:29 PM
Levers and engine assembly are looking great Chris!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

My suggestion would be to lever alone a while in the pickle.    >ahem<


LEGAL DISCLAIMER:
NO GUINNESS WAS CONSUMED PRIOR TO OR DURING THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE ABOVE BAD PUN.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 01, 2019, 04:39:46 PM
Levers and engine assembly are looking great Chris!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

My suggestion would be to lever alone a while in the pickle.    >ahem<


LEGAL DISCLAIMER:
NO GUINNESS WAS CONSUMED PRIOR TO OR DURING THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE ABOVE BAD PUN.

Some Guinness might help your puns...  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 01, 2019, 06:52:02 PM
Just had to re-solder one of the levers, have started installing them...
(https://i.postimg.cc/kgggcP54/IMG-4800.jpg)
Next will be to make a batch of 1-72 shoulder bolts to connect to the end of the eccentric arms.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 01, 2019, 10:24:50 PM
Got the rest of the levers installed - one of them had a slightly loose fit on the one bearing between the levers, causing it to wobble side to side, but when I added the center bearing it steadied it right up. Guess that confirms why Marion had that center bearing position with the split shafts!
I was about to start making the shoulder bolts to attach the follower arms to the levers, when I remembered that I dont have a 1-72 die. I have taps, but no die for 1-72 (have 0-80 and 2-56, but its hard to average them). So, ordered that, will be here Wednesday. In the meantime I'll move on to other parts. Just need to decide which... Maybe do the valve glands and rods into the steam chest...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gary.a.ayres on April 01, 2019, 11:14:44 PM
Looking great. Love the pistons...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Firebird on April 02, 2019, 03:51:55 PM
Hi Chris

We have just got back from a 2 week holiday.

Took me a while to catch up, great progress  :ThumbsUp:

Cheers

Rich
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on April 02, 2019, 04:54:23 PM
I see George loaned you his giant penny, or did the elves just borrow it without permission?

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 02, 2019, 06:21:49 PM
I see George loaned you his giant penny, or did the elves just borrow it without permission?

Don
I had MichaelElfalo carve one and cast it in copper....   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 02, 2019, 06:27:37 PM
Since I am waiting on the 1-72 die to show up tomorrow, skipped ahead to the valve rod glands in the steam chests. Drilled a through hole for the rod, slightly oversize, then counterbored for the gland thread.
(https://i.postimg.cc/NGZxvNp7/IMG-4801.jpg)
There is not enough room on the chest wall for the packing, glands, flange, and screws like I did on the piston rods, so I changed these to be a screw-in style gland, turned out of brass.
(https://i.postimg.cc/WbrwNMyR/IMG-4802.jpg)
Got three made up for each engine, and milled away the outside of the wall to final shape around the glands.

(https://i.postimg.cc/BnB5DJsM/IMG-4803.jpg)
Here is how they look:
(https://i.postimg.cc/sgr9vMFM/IMG-4805.jpg)
Next will make the inlet/exhaust pipe flanges for the other side of the steam chests...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on April 02, 2019, 06:48:58 PM
Those three cannons on the turret / steam chest look like they could open fire on the hoist drum any moment!  :Lol:

More great progress Chris!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 02, 2019, 07:11:33 PM
Those three cannons on the turret / steam chest look like they could open fire on the hoist drum any moment!  :Lol:

More great progress Chris!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Does kinda look like a sci-fi laser turret!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 02, 2019, 09:52:29 PM
Have gotten the holes for the steam/exhaust pipes and flanges drilled, also made and silver soldered the inlet pipe flanges. The pipes are left long till I know exactly where the elbows will go. Made it up as a set of three for easy handling, will cut them apart next.

(https://i.postimg.cc/3NdVx7fx/IMG-4806.jpg)
And before CNR can say it, yes they look like race car headers for a V-6. Or a spitball gatling gun...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on April 03, 2019, 04:54:59 AM
Nice looking pipes, Chris!
Did you silver solder all three of them at the same time?  I've not had much luck with that. I have had better luck soldering things like that one at a time.  But maybe its smaller than I'm thinking so they're really close together?

Nice results, regardless!

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 03, 2019, 01:29:48 PM
Nice looking pipes, Chris!
Did you silver solder all three of them at the same time?  I've not had much luck with that. I have had better luck soldering things like that one at a time.  But maybe its smaller than I'm thinking so they're really close together?

Nice results, regardless!

Kim
The pipes are 3/16" diameter, the base 1/2" x 1-3/8", so they are fairly close together. With a small torch, I heated from under the base with the assembly angled back against the brick so the flames partly went up the tubes, the solder wire was wrapped around the base of each. It melted on them one at a time as the torch was moved across - went pretty easily. I buy the silver solder in the thin wire form, and wrap it on the joints under the flux, which works well.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 03, 2019, 07:11:38 PM
Got the 1-72 die in today, so got to work making up a batch of shoulder bolts for the valve levers:
(https://i.postimg.cc/XJST4M3d/IMG-4807.jpg)
Got the ones for the lower levers all made and installed:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ydm2NfY5/IMG-4808.jpg)
While I have the setup all dialed in, think I'll make up the ones for the upper levers too...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on April 03, 2019, 07:33:30 PM
Re 3 pipes photo: NASA called and said they want their triplex nano photon wave guide back. They said they paid $1,200,000.00 to have it made. I told them you would likely do a second one for them for $1,199,990.00 if they asked nice.  :Lol:

Re: shoulder screws - I like doing screws in batch mode too. Even if you make a few extra and you don't use them on the current project they always seem to come in handy for other projects, and for those, you've saved the setup time. (especially when you have the thread dia. just so and the die's running sweet!)  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on April 03, 2019, 07:43:55 PM
Up until my last build, I’ve always made my own bolts, studs, nuts, and washers. Well, I decided I would splurge and order a bag of 100 of bolts, nuts, and washers from 0-80 through 5-40 from AME . Awesome service, great looking products, but the $416 that showed up on the Amex bill, OMG, will definitely have me making them again when and if, I ever run out  :facepalm:

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 03, 2019, 07:57:55 PM
Re 3 pipes photo: NASA called and said they want their triplex nano photon wave guide back. They said they paid $1,200,000.00 to have it made. I told them you would likely do a second one for them for $1,199,990.00 if they asked nice.  :Lol:

Re: shoulder screws - I like doing screws in batch mode too. Even if you make a few extra and you don't use them on the current project they always seem to come in handy for other projects, and for those, you've saved the setup time. (especially when you have the thread dia. just so and the die's running sweet!)  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Well, nuts - already sawed it apart into the three simplex photo wave guides. Sigh. As soon as the cash arrived from Nasa I'll make another. Tell them its half price! 
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 03, 2019, 08:00:11 PM
Up until my last build, I’ve always made my own bolts, studs, nuts, and washers. Well, I decided I would splurge and order a bag of 100 of bolts, nuts, and washers from 0-80 through 5-40 from AME . Awesome service, great looking products, but the $416 that showed up on the Amex bill, OMG, will definitely have me making them again when and if, I ever run out  :facepalm:

Cletus
Yup - great products, but the prices are a bit high for large quantities. I've been searching around the last week or so for more 2-56 hex head stainless screws, but other than 1/4" long I cannot find any in less than 10,000 carton quantities. All the usual suppliers dont carry them anymore in steel, brass is easy to find. I have no problem making them now and then, but doing large quantities gets tedious very fast!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on April 03, 2019, 09:22:04 PM

[/quote]
Yup - great products, but the prices are a bit high for large quantities. I've been searching around the last week or so for more 2-56 hex head stainless screws, but other than 1/4" long I cannot find any in less than 10,000 carton quantities. All the usual suppliers dont carry them anymore in steel, brass is easy to find. I have no problem making them now and then, but doing large quantities gets tedious very fast!

[/quote]
Maybe your not looking in the right place check amazon...https://www.amazon.com/Socket-Screws-Stainless-Thread-Knuled/dp/B073WPX6T2/ref=sr_1_4?crid=1BK6NQ7E9GLC6&keywords=2%2F56+hex+head&qid=1554322759&s=gateway&sprefix=2%2F56+%2Caps%2C178&sr=8-4

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 03, 2019, 10:08:38 PM

Yup - great products, but the prices are a bit high for large quantities. I've been searching around the last week or so for more 2-56 hex head stainless screws, but other than 1/4" long I cannot find any in less than 10,000 carton quantities. All the usual suppliers dont carry them anymore in steel, brass is easy to find. I have no problem making them now and then, but doing large quantities gets tedious very fast!

Maybe your not looking in the right place check amazon...https://www.amazon.com/Socket-Screws-Stainless-Thread-Knuled/dp/B073WPX6T2/ref=sr_1_4?crid=1BK6NQ7E9GLC6&keywords=2%2F56+hex+head&qid=1554322759&s=gateway&sprefix=2%2F56+%2Caps%2C178&sr=8-4 (https://www.amazon.com/Socket-Screws-Stainless-Thread-Knuled/dp/B073WPX6T2/ref=sr_1_4?crid=1BK6NQ7E9GLC6&keywords=2%2F56+hex+head&qid=1554322759&s=gateway&sprefix=2%2F56+%2Caps%2C178&sr=8-4)

Don

Those are socket head screws - what I am looking for is external hex head screws. The socket head ones are all over, but they dont look right on a period engine so I much prefer the hex heads. The terminology makes it tough to search for the external hex ones without getting a million socket head hits - there are many variations on the wording of both types. I can find brass screws in lots of sizes, but recently the steel and stainless ones have been disappearing from the listings.

(https://i.postimg.cc/tCgZhJnS/Hex-screw.jpg)



Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 04, 2019, 12:08:26 AM
I made up the other batch of shoulder bolts, then started laying out the valve ports. First measured the actual travel of the valve levers at the top, happy to see that is good. If it was off for whatever reason I would have adjusted the port spacing, but no problem there.




 I did notice that I have forgotten to file the inside corners of the steam chest square, which needs to be done to have clearance for the valve movement.


Good thing I built that die filer...


Whats that??


Oh.   :slap:


My shop foreman elf has informed me that I didn't make one yet.  :facepalm2:   sigh.


Don't have enough cookies to bribe the elves to do it, so I will have to do it myself while being elf-heckled!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Mr.H on April 04, 2019, 12:16:46 AM
chris, Micro fasteners has  ss screws. They are in Easton,Pa.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 04, 2019, 12:35:14 AM
chris, Micro fasteners has  ss screws. They are in Easton,Pa.
Yup, have bought from them many times, but they do not have the 2-56 screws in stainless with hex heads any more. Thats one size I use the most of, in several lengths, but cant find. Same for 1-72 screws. Lits of brass ones around, and a bazillion in socket head. No external hex that I can find this year.

Thanks for the tip though!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on April 04, 2019, 05:02:15 AM
I've had similar issues finding #2-56 hex head screws for my models. I have been substituting #2-56 studs and nuts for them, as a solution. Could be argued that studs and nuts are actually more correct fasteners to the prototypes for many types of steam machinery. #2-56 threaded rod is still widely available and so far I have been able to get 1/8" hex size #2-56 nuts (closer to scale hex size than commercial machine screw #2-56 nuts) or have made my own. I did find some correct-size 1/8" a/f steel hex bar to make nuts with a while ago, and nuts are fast to make. However, 1/8" a/f size hex bar is getting hard to find also, which may be one reason for screws made of it are scarce. I have not looked too hard for 3 mm a/f hex stock but there does not appear to be any locally. 1/8" a/f hex stainless bar has not been available locally for some years.

One other possible way would be to change over to M2 hex head bolts. They are still available a few places in the world (UK und Germany for sure)  but are not cheap. Unfortunately they have 4 mm a/f hex heads, bigger than 1/8" or 3.18 mm a/f. These may not look right on a model, but you could mill the hex down to 3 mm a/f for better appearance. :thinking:

 M2 thread is .078" OD where #2 is .086" OD. M2 has 0.4 mm or .0157"  pitch where #2-56 has .0178" pitch. The M2 and #2-56 Threads are not interchangeable but are not too different in size. I would not mix metric and inch fasteners on the same model but in future I may go all metric stud/nut fasteners for some models just for availability and cost reasons, especially if I can find a bunch of 3 mm hex stainless at reasonable cost.

Hope these ideas help, just food for thought.     :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gary.a.ayres on April 04, 2019, 06:30:05 AM

Yup - great products, but the prices are a bit high for large quantities. I've been searching around the last week or so for more 2-56 hex head stainless screws, but other than 1/4" long I cannot find any in less than 10,000 carton quantities. All the usual suppliers dont carry them anymore in steel, brass is easy to find. I have no problem making them now and then, but doing large quantities gets tedious very fast!


Maybe your not looking in the right place check amazon...https://www.amazon.com/Socket-Screws-Stainless-Thread-Knuled/dp/B073WPX6T2/ref=sr_1_4?crid=1BK6NQ7E9GLC6&keywords=2%2F56+hex+head&qid=1554322759&s=gateway&sprefix=2%2F56+%2Caps%2C178&sr=8-4

Don
[/quote]

And for those of us back here in the Old World: https://www.ukstainless.co.uk/a2-stainless-steel-socket-cap-screws.html (https://www.ukstainless.co.uk/a2-stainless-steel-socket-cap-screws.html)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on April 04, 2019, 11:56:34 AM
I pretty much get all my model screws and nuts from AME, but I order only what I need and usually in the 25 count bags. 
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 04, 2019, 12:52:06 PM
I've had similar issues finding #2-56 hex head screws for my models. I have been substituting #2-56 studs and nuts for them, as a solution. Could be argued that studs and nuts are actually more correct fasteners to the prototypes for many types of steam machinery. #2-56 threaded rod is still widely available and so far I have been able to get 1/8" hex size #2-56 nuts (closer to scale hex size than commercial machine screw #2-56 nuts) or have made my own. I did find some correct-size 1/8" a/f steel hex bar to make nuts with a while ago, and nuts are fast to make. However, 1/8" a/f size hex bar is getting hard to find also, which may be one reason for screws made of it are scarce. I have not looked too hard for 3 mm a/f hex stock but there does not appear to be any locally. 1/8" a/f hex stainless bar has not been available locally for some years.

One other possible way would be to change over to M2 hex head bolts. They are still available a few places in the world (UK und Germany for sure)  but are not cheap. Unfortunately they have 4 mm a/f hex heads, bigger than 1/8" or 3.18 mm a/f. These may not look right on a model, but you could mill the hex down to 3 mm a/f for better appearance. :thinking:

 M2 thread is .078" OD where #2 is .086" OD. M2 has 0.4 mm or .0157"  pitch where #2-56 has .0178" pitch. The M2 and #2-56 Threads are not interchangeable but are not too different in size. I would not mix metric and inch fasteners on the same model but in future I may go all metric stud/nut fasteners for some models just for availability and cost reasons, especially if I can find a bunch of 3 mm hex stainless at reasonable cost.

Hope these ideas help, just food for thought.     :cheers:
Good points - the 1/8" hex SS is not that common, but is still out there at some places, I see that Speedy Metals has it in 303 stainless at the moment, Online Metals and McMaster do not. The small pattern nuts are available at a number of places, but you are right, that availability varies. I recently found a bunch at Albany County Fasteners, they had them in sizes down to 0-80. The hex head (not socket head) screws in steel are the ones that are not around much at all any more below 4-40, and if so in few lengths. I may go back to a method someone here showed (Chuck Fellows maybe) a while back, using a hex collet holder to sand/grind off the edges/end of socket or pan heads to make hex heads - he set up a stop on the machine so that the hex holder could just be pushed against it, then rotated to the next flat, should go pretty quickly, slow part will probably be swapping screws. Its probably a sign of manufacturing processes changing to socket drive products for speed when assembling parts that the demand for external hex drive is way down. Good for them, bad for us.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 04, 2019, 12:54:43 PM
I pretty much get all my model screws and nuts from AME, but I order only what I need and usually in the 25 count bags.
I get fasteners from them from time to time, excellent quality but pricey, but in some sizes like 3-48 they are the only game in town. I just wish they had fully-threaded screws more, the part-threaded ones are handy for the models since you can trim them to length as needed and still have threads. On a model like this Marion, I am using fasteners in bulk.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dan Rowe on April 04, 2019, 02:18:38 PM
Chris,
If you are thinking about switching to M2 bolts search for M2 DIN 933 which is the fully threaded version. They can be found in bulk on ebay or amazon.

Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 04, 2019, 02:44:43 PM
Chris,
If you are thinking about switching to M2 bolts search for M2 DIN 933 which is the fully threaded version. They can be found in bulk on ebay or amazon.

Dan
Thanks - just gave them a look, looks like there are a variety of lengths available in that. Is there a chart somewhere that gives the DIN numbers for the different combinations? I have not seen that nomenclature before.
 :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 04, 2019, 03:05:47 PM
This morning I got the inside corners on the steam chests filed square, and have moved on to drilling the steam ports in the valve chest base. These ports are different than the normal 3-rows found in most engines, since the porting allows a third slide valve between the cylinders to act as both throttle and fwd/reverse control, something that Marion invented. They used a piston valve in the center with rows of increasing-size holes in the outer sleave to do the throttle, I have simplified that for the model to a d-valve with triangular outer slots.
To start, here is the pattern of holes drilled in the first valve face:
(https://i.postimg.cc/05W8XW18/IMG-4812.jpg)
The center set has 3 rows, center connects to exhaust, other two connect to the slots in the cylinder sets. The rows alternate depth, to allow for the internal passages. Here is a 3D view of the passages, not counting the cross connectors on the shallow ones:
(https://i.postimg.cc/vTRCCVht/Slew-Engine-ports.jpg)
This is combined with special double-decker slide valves for the cylinders and a normal slide valve for the throttle:
(https://i.postimg.cc/gJLfMDV0/Slew-Engine-Valves.jpg)

The cylinder sliders completely cover all four of the ports at all times, connecting them up in pairs. The center slide valve determines which ports get steam or exhaust, which is how it does the reversing. The tapered slots on the center ports accomplish the throttle action, allowing more steam in as the slider uncovers more of the area in the port to steam from the chest. I am starting with shallow triangles on those, will increase the length of the triangles after some experimenting if needed (which will need a longer dead area on the ends of the center slider, but that one is easy to remake).

Here is what the original center valve setup looked like in the Marion version:
(https://i.postimg.cc/0NTtNqS8/Slew-Engine-v72-control-sleeve.jpg)
They had a spool valve inside the sleave that uncovered more of the end holes as it moved, to allow more and more steam in.

If you want your head to explode, here are 3D renders of how the original Marion castings had all these ports - they used hollow cavities inside the cylinder block to connect up the ports, which must have driven their mould makers insane making the master patterns to cast with!

(https://i.postimg.cc/rm2JkN6s/Slew-Engine-v49-Passages1.jpg)
The different passages are different colors - the purple ones at the top are inside the slide valves, the white/yellow ones connect to the cylinders at the bottom. The rectangular blocks at the top were more passages inside the steam chest. Basically, everything that is open air in these renders was where the cast metal was.

(https://i.postimg.cc/JzgxTWPb/Slew-Engine-v49-Passages-2.jpg)
These 3D renders were made by taking the cross-section views from Marion's original patent drawings, it took them about a dozen cross section views to show them all - all hand drawn by them, amazing work for early 1900s.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cJnm25bP/Slew-Engine-v49-Passages-3.jpg)
Study these carefully, there will be a test!   :insane:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dan Rowe on April 04, 2019, 03:07:12 PM
Chris, DIN is a German standards system that covers a lot of stuff here is a list:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_DIN_standards

Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 04, 2019, 03:15:18 PM
Chris, DIN is a German standards system that covers a lot of stuff here is a list:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_DIN_standards (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_DIN_standards)

Dan
Excellent - thanks!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Admiral_dk on April 04, 2019, 09:13:29 PM
Those 3D models of the steam "control passages" was something I was looking forward to .... but I must admit that I haven't cracked the nut yet (understanding the function instinctively)  :thinking:  :noidea:

You are still doing great on this model  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 04, 2019, 10:16:29 PM
Hi Admiral,
Yeah, they do take a while to wrap your mind around - here are a couple of illustrations that I came up with while figuring it out myself. These are cross sections through the block at the middle of the cylinders and the cylinder valves, using the patent diagrams as a basis. I simpllified the shape of the double-decker valve slider on top, theirs was a more rounded shape to the passages since it was all cast, I needed something I could machine, so it is milled/drilled, with the one passage end plugged where the drill goes in.


Okay, there are four ports under the valve. The left and second to right go across to the center throttle/reverse valve, which determines which one gets steam from the steam chest and which gets connected to the exhaust. In these two pictures, the left one gets steam sent through it (so its red), and the one second from right gets connected to exhaust (so its gray).

So, the slider for the valve is all the way to the left side, and the piston is all the way to left, at the end of its stroke. The left input port has steam coming in, going up through the top of the D-valve, and down the far right port, which pushed steam through the right end of the cylinder,  which is why the piston went all the way left. At the same time, the exhaust from the left end of the cylinder went up the second-left port, through the bottom chamber of the d-valve, and out the second-right port to the exhaust pipe. And yes, I am ignoring the fine details of timing, by the time the piston was that far left the valve would be moving right, this is to show the flow more clearly.
(https://i.postimg.cc/5tKQ8ZWD/Reversing-Piston-Valve-Concept-v21-Slider-Left.jpg)

Now, in the second picture, the valve has moved over to the right hand position, which has connected the left hand input port to the second-left port, sending steam down the left end of the cylinder, pushing the piston to the right. At the same time, the exhaust from the right end of the cylinder has come up, and gone through the lower chamber of the d-valve and out the exhaust port. Note that in both pictures the left and second right passages keep the same function, steam in and exhaust out, it is the double-decker d valve that routes the gases to the proper places. Also note that the steam in the rest of the chest NEVER goes around the end of this double-decker valve like it would in a normal d-valve. It only does that on the central control valve, which is controlled by the operator, and when running in one direction that never changes.
(https://i.postimg.cc/tT1Zk2XJ/Reversing-Piston-Valve-Concept-v21-Slider-Right.jpg)
If the operator wanted to run the engine the other way, he would change the center valve, which would reverse the functions of those two passages, so that steam would come in on the second-from-right passage, and exhaust would go out the left passage, making the piston go in the opposite direction from these pictures. There is just one eccentric controlling each cylinder's valve, timed at 90 degrees from the crank. That means no fine control of lead/cutoff like in a Stephenson linkage, but since these engines only ran in short bursts, long-run efficiencies do not apply at all. It does have many fewer parts, just more complex passages.

Hope this helps?? It took me a while of studying the patents to figure out how it worked, and hopefully I got it right!
 :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 04, 2019, 10:20:12 PM
This afternoon I got the rest of the ports chain drilled, and started drilling the rest of the passages. The two shallow ports in each row get connected across all three rows, so drilled those through:
(https://i.postimg.cc/rskV4Jsv/IMG-4813.jpg)
Then came the exhaust passage out to the pipe flange - at first I was really worried about breaking through the cylinder edge, till I realized  :hammerbash:   that this passage is BETWEEN the cylinders, so I could go a little deep and not worry! I lined it up from the outside edge, then moved back to the center, used a small end mill to put in a flat, and drilled through to the port.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Hx5WjKYw/IMG-4815.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/gjHYHZ6r/IMG-4816.jpg)
Two more blocks to drill this passage on, then I can do the passages to the cylinder ends...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gary.a.ayres on April 05, 2019, 08:08:17 AM
I must admit that I haven't cracked the nut yet (understanding the function instinctively)  :thinking:  :noidea:


I'm not even going to try!

But it looks great anyway. Amazing work you are doing on this sophisticated machine...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Admiral_dk on April 05, 2019, 11:26:29 AM
Thank you for the explanation of the forward / reverse + linkage from excentrik - that part is clear now.

I could have sworn that you mentioned that the handle in the cabin gave both speed and direction though - does it move the round valve with all the different size holes too or is that just my bad memory ?

Best wishes

Per
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 05, 2019, 01:09:50 PM
Thank you for the explanation of the forward / reverse + linkage from excentrik - that part is clear now.

I could have sworn that you mentioned that the handle in the cabin gave both speed and direction though - does it move the round valve with all the different size holes too or is that just my bad memory ?

Best wishes

Per
Correct, the operator only has one control for this engine, it connects to the center valve for throttle and fwd reverse. In the middle position the engine is stopped, as the lever is moved farther in either direction it goes faster in that direction as it uncovers more of the holes. I am going to use a tapered slot rather than the sleeve with the holes, but same result.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on April 05, 2019, 02:48:12 PM
I'm still following along Chris; I've run out of superlatives to describe this build so I'll just comment that I can't wait to see the project complete and I hope to see it 'in the flesh' some day, maybe at Cabin Fever.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 05, 2019, 04:39:42 PM
I'm still following along Chris; I've run out of superlatives to describe this build so I'll just comment that I can't wait to see the project complete and I hope to see it 'in the flesh' some day, maybe at Cabin Fever.
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 05, 2019, 04:49:19 PM
More work on the steam/exhaust passages on the slew/crowd engines, got the last of the exhaust drilling done that I started last time, and then set up for drilling the passages from the deeper ports out to the ends of the cylinders - these are able to run perpendicular to the parts, so easy setup:
(https://i.postimg.cc/P5st2YWK/IMG-4818.jpg)
Then milled a shallow connector from the ends of each hole over to the cylinder bore:
(https://i.postimg.cc/fb5DzP6g/IMG-4820.jpg)
and then its time to finish up the port slots in the valve face. I had chain drilled each slot, slightly smaller than the finished size, so I got out the high speed air rotary tool and a fine dental bur and connected up the slots by hand, careful not to drift off to the side and make the slots too wide. You can see that the long edges of the slots are a bit wavy - that is how the hand work left it (using a magnifying headset to see that close up)

(https://i.postimg.cc/k577dChb/IMG-4821.jpg)
so then set up in the mill, and using the same bit in the drill chuck started evening up the edges and getting them to dimension. These bits are fragile, and can only take a thou or so off in a pass, which is why I started by hand since it let me feel the cut. Here is the first part with the slots evened up.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0yY93jZv/IMG-4823.jpg)
Two more parts to do this on, then I'll cut the tapered sections of the center ports to do the throttle action. Good time to break for lunch!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 05, 2019, 07:28:07 PM
All of the slots are to dimension, and the throttle notches are cut in using the rotary tool - may go back later and make them longer and narrower, but they should be good for initial testing. Also took a light facing cut on the valve faces using the fly cutter to smooth off any nicks and gouges from all the handling.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HnyHdk0T/IMG-4825.jpg)

So, almost ready to run....
Just need to make up 6 double-decker D-valve sliders, 3 throttle d-valves, 9 valve rods, 9 valve nuts, 9 valve clevises, 3 throttle levers, time everything, lap/file/fine tune as needed.... Should be ready by dinnertime! Um, dinner at the end of the month?!   :Lol:

Oh, and 36 steam chest studs, 72 cylinder studs, and whatever else I am not remembering...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on April 05, 2019, 07:52:49 PM
Great progress Chris!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Brings a new meaning to the phrase "any port in a storm". You certainly have lots of ports to choose from!

Looking forward to the valves chapter (before or after dinner late this month!)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on April 05, 2019, 09:21:16 PM
Well Dog all I can say is you will be busy for a while..... :lolb: just waiting to see this baby turning over.... :ThumbsUp: oh and by the way excellent results so far.... :ThumbsUp:



 :popcornsmall:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 05, 2019, 11:34:32 PM
I haven't been on the forum much lately but I did want to drop in and say one word...

Stanley

 ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 05, 2019, 11:38:37 PM
I haven't been on the forum much lately but I did want to drop in and say one word...

Stanley

 ;D
Ollie! You are back!   :lolb:

Seriously, good to hear from you, hope things are going well.

If you check back a few pages, you will see that I have been giving the Stanley some thought, and think I have figured out how to make the steam chest/cylinder block on the engine. It is still on the build list. Tough part will be getting the car maker down south to make the boiler and mount it on that neato car he is making!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on April 05, 2019, 11:50:11 PM
Moi?  :???:

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 05, 2019, 11:52:11 PM
Yeah I went on a tangent. I worked on a 1/16 scale model of the Albatross DVa (probably my favorite airplane of all time) and I'm currently working on a 1/48 scale wood model of a longboat.

Last October my laptop got destroyed (stinking hoppies don't mix with electronics) and finally got the go ahead to get a new computer. That was a disaster and I had to send it back.
I upgraded my cheapie desktop with some extra RAM and that made a huge difference. So now I'm back to playing with CAD.

Unfortunately, life still gets in the way (as we all know). T has a major trip scheduled for us, I'm helping her get the garden set up, got a grandson on the way, the folks are thinking about a retirement home so I'm helping them clear their house, and the physical therapy I'm going through is no fun (mostly because it reminds me of how out of shape I am).

I celebrated one year of retirement the other day and I'm still struggling to acclimate to the idea. (To be truthful, I'm still trying to find myself.)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 06, 2019, 12:28:51 AM
Moi?  :???:
Da!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jo on April 06, 2019, 07:59:14 AM
I celebrated one year of retirement the other day and I'm still struggling to acclimate to the idea. (To be truthful, I'm still trying to find myself.)

Don't worry Zee lots of people take more than a year to acclimatise to retirement but don't take too long before getting back to the swarf or you might have to start learning how to do it all over again.  :facepalm:

Jo
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 06, 2019, 11:52:01 PM
Going to be a couple of days till more shop time, the ... Um, whatchacallit... Oh yeah .. warm weather has finally made it here and its time to go outside! Top down on the car today, time out on the porch, and next couple of days are even warmer! Getting out to enjoy it before it goes back down to freezing next week!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on April 07, 2019, 12:12:43 AM
Chris--Lovely work from you, as usual.  Zee--Retirement is a bit scary and disorienting. I don't think it is for everyone, but I found that my work is what defined me as a person. When I no longer worked every day, I felt very lost. It passes.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 08, 2019, 10:02:16 PM
Been a very nice summer here the last couple of days, but, now we are heading back into the 40's the rest of the week, so back into the shop! Nice while it lasted...

One thing I have finished up is a side project thats been perking away in the background, you may recall over on Dave's thread for making the Morrison And Marvin model makers vise that I mentioned picking up a casting set for it. It is now complete, just in time to get used for some of the fiddlier bits on the slew/crowd engines:
(https://i.postimg.cc/W4Jdg1nk/IMG-4826.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/mgncPHQ4/IMG-4827.jpg)
Its a very nice set of castings, the surfaces of the vise are really nice, they must use a very fine sand and a good alloy. There were a few hiccups on it, the sprues that they say to use for gripping the parts for turning were really really rough and odd shaped so they needed some work to get them able to be held, and the front jaw casting had the sprue off at an angle so it wound up smaller than they said to turn it, but that got cut off the final model anyway so no big deal. The plans are very complete, though there are places where the instructions and the drawings dont really match, requiring some head scratching. All that is part of why I like making models from bar stock so much, but this is the kind of shape where that is not practical at all. All in all, a fun side project, one that will see some use in the shop, which is even more fun. Its all functional, the vise will swivel on the base, it has a couple inches of opening and moves nicely. The jaws are replaceable, I left them smooth since thats what I use the most in the bigger vise.

So, on to the valves on the engines again tomorrow!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on April 08, 2019, 10:43:55 PM
Cute little vise!  You certainly did it justice, that looks really nice!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dave Otto on April 09, 2019, 12:28:49 AM
The vise turned out nice Chris, I did't realize that you were working one it.

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 09, 2019, 12:30:33 AM
The vise turned out nice Chris, I did't realize that you were working one it.

Dave
I had bought the set a while back, been a background thing between other parts. Should be a handy item, just need to bolt it to a base block so I can clamp it to the bench when using it.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gary.a.ayres on April 09, 2019, 09:33:26 AM
Very nifty vice.

Has the look of quality about it.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 09, 2019, 02:53:19 PM
With the vise made, need something to put in it, so back to the valves on the engines. Got the valve rods cut to length, and started threading the ends. This particular bit of rod stock was quite hard, and would not take the die well till I annealed the ends with a torch. Seems to vary piece to piece, the last rod I used from same pile was softer and threaded as is. Anyway, few more to go, then will start on the end fittings...
(https://i.postimg.cc/TYqbv7SF/IMG-4828.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 09, 2019, 04:57:24 PM
And making up a batch of the end fittings, started with square bar and drilled/tapped the holes for the shoulder bolts which hold them to the lever arms.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zvtWgVrW/IMG-4829.jpg)
That bar was then taken to the 4-jaw on the lathe, one by one drilled the end and parted off...
(https://i.postimg.cc/L4Nj701X/IMG-4830.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 09, 2019, 09:02:02 PM
and assembled into a stock-o-valve rods, with the gland nuts/o-rings set up earlier on the steam chests...
(https://i.postimg.cc/769hbh8k/IMG-4831.jpg)
Each engine gets two long rods, for the cylinder valves, and one short rod, for the throttle valve.
Still to be made: 3 throttle linkage levers (each  2 levers 1 rod), 3 throttle slider valves, 6 cylinder slider valves,  6 cylinder gaskets, 6 steam chest gaskets. Getting to be a short(ish) list finally!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on April 09, 2019, 09:49:31 PM
Hi Chris, you've been busy again! Parts look great.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Won't be long before they're hot rods - steam heated of course..... :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on April 09, 2019, 09:58:39 PM
Dog you been working those little critters on overtime again even squeezed in making a vise.  :lolb:
I just love seeing progress just as long as you don’t start working like a crawfish going backwards. Damn nice progress Chris!  :cheers:

 :popcornsmall:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 09, 2019, 10:07:26 PM
Thanks guys!!  Don't worry, still getting in time for afternoon naps and heading off to archery league in a little while... This weekend we have a gathering at the local pool with the RC subs too - almost warm enough to head out to the pond, just a few more weeks till our spring run there.   :cartwheel:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 10, 2019, 03:07:36 PM
Today is going to be a stock prep day - taking some oversize 1/2" bearing bronze bar down to rectangular for the valve sliders. Holding in a 5C collet in square holder, and milling off enough for a pair at a time. I need 2 large blocks for each engine, plus one small each for the throttle valve. The smaller ones should fit inside a 3/8" round bar. I got lucky that the 1/2" bar fit in the collet, the bars are rough rolled so the dimensions vary piece to piece, sometimes they need a trim in the lathe to get to a nominal size for the collets.
(https://i.postimg.cc/yYdrn5b7/IMG-4832.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 11, 2019, 03:41:18 PM
The blocks for the valve sliders have all been cut to size - hows this for a really boring picture?
(https://i.postimg.cc/brQ7rdFR/IMG-4834.jpg)
This morning got the recess cut in the bottom of the throttle sliders:
(https://i.postimg.cc/BZH9MwQ1/IMG-4836.jpg)
Started the openings with a 1/8" end mill, then took them out to rectangles with the mini bur, as used on the ports. Next up are the openings in the cylinder valve sliders. Those are a much more complicated layout, and the deeper and narrower holes will need to be chain drilled first. Here is the drawing again:
(https://i.postimg.cc/gJLfMDV0/Slew-Engine-Valves.jpg)



Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 11, 2019, 06:13:24 PM
Chain drilled the holes for the passages - the end two sets are deeper than the center set, so that they can be connected with a cross hole.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vTFk7xPC/IMG-4839.jpg)
drilled the cross hole...
(https://i.postimg.cc/d32X5Qp3/IMG-4840.jpg)
and used an end mill to take most of the material out of the two larger holes:
(https://i.postimg.cc/dQrzsn3F/IMG-4841.jpg)
Next up is to use the small bur to clean up the sides of the holes, and connect the holes in the narrow end passage...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on April 11, 2019, 07:34:29 PM
Valve day has arrived! great work so far. Like the sneaky plugged passage according to the plans of Dr. B. Y. Pass ! will you silver solder the plug in to secure and seal it,  or peen it over?

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 11, 2019, 09:08:33 PM
Valve day has arrived! great work so far. Like the sneaky plugged passage according to the plans of Dr. B. Y. Pass ! will you silver solder the plug in to secure and seal it,  or peen it over?

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
I am going to tap the hole and run in a small set screw with some sealant, just in case I ever want to pull it back out, not sure why I would but the hole size works for one and it is quick to do.


I didn't see Dr ByPass, but did just get back from the eye doctor, so till the dilation drops wear off and I can see again the little engine parts will have to wait!
 :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on April 12, 2019, 07:10:31 AM
Hay Chris,
 So you found the Elves stash of gold bars! Boy they will be p....d at you when they find out!

You better get the cookies out of the freezer........a big pile!

They are complex little suckers! Looking good.  :popcorn:

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 12, 2019, 05:09:55 PM
Hay Chris,
 So you found the Elves stash of gold bars! Boy they will be p....d at you when they find out!

You better get the cookies out of the freezer........a big pile!

They are complex little suckers! Looking good.  :popcorn:

Cheers Kerrin
Well, they didn't know till YOU told them (they read this forum too).... Sheesh...
 :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 12, 2019, 05:14:37 PM
Bunch more done on the valve sliders this morning, got the edges of the slots opened up to size with the same bur (an FG333L dental bur, for those who are looking for them).

(https://i.postimg.cc/mZ5htw8p/IMG-4842.jpg)
The slots for the valve rods are too thin for a normal mill, so I used a slitting saw to make them, came out nice and clean. The saw blade is .050 thick, which made figuring out the distance to raise the head between passes easy.
(https://i.postimg.cc/g29JK09v/IMG-4844.jpg)
and the slots for the adjusting nuts too
(https://i.postimg.cc/7YJh72RH/IMG-4845.jpg)
Here is the batch of sliders for all three engines:
(https://i.postimg.cc/pLDdctx3/IMG-4846.jpg)
Just need to tap/plug the ends of the passage holes, and I can start on the adjusting nuts. Its getting warm out though, may head outside this afternoon and enjoy it!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on April 12, 2019, 06:30:36 PM
Gotta stick up for Steamer5 on this one crueby.  Since the elves read the forum, and you posted the pictures, then YOU told the elves - not him.  No passing the buck on that one.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 12, 2019, 06:55:16 PM
Gotta stick up for Steamer5 on this one crueby.  Since the elves read the forum, and you posted the pictures, then YOU told the elves - not him.  No passing the buck on that one.

Don
Rats, you noticed!!   :lolb:   fortunately its a nice warm day finally, and the elves are out chasing squirrels and forgetting what I did.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on April 12, 2019, 08:25:45 PM
Solid gold valves eh? They should run smoooooOOOOoooth !!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Guess the elves' bowling alley, pool hall, and semi-licensed tap room must be doing OK..... :Lol:

Enjoy the nice day.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on April 12, 2019, 10:09:21 PM
Hello Chris,

I have said it before and I will say it again, man that sure is a lot of work on those engines. I think you built the complete Lombard in less time. None the less, some really fine work.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 12, 2019, 10:42:07 PM
Hello Chris,

I have said it before and I will say it again, man that sure is a lot of work on those engines. I think you built the complete Lombard in less time. None the less, some really fine work.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Yup - Lots of work on these engines! Its been a great learning experience, though it is no where near the time spent on the Lombard. That was just about 1 year, these engines were started at beginning of February, so its only been 2-1/2 months. So far, not done yet.

Wow, does seem longer though! More of the time warp in action....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 14, 2019, 03:33:55 PM
This morning got back into the shop and drilled/tapped/trimmed/cut apart the adjusting nuts for the valve sliders:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Z5CH8nxT/IMG-4847.jpg)
Here they all are:
(https://i.postimg.cc/cL2mXWFf/IMG-4848.jpg)
Lets see, need to lap the valve faces nice and flat, then will start making up the pile of studs to bolt everything together (cylinders, steam chests). Also need to make the throttle levers. And gaskets....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Johnmcc69 on April 14, 2019, 03:40:03 PM
 :popcorn:
 Still quietly following along & enjoying it all Chris!

 As usual, great looking parts!

 John
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on April 14, 2019, 03:57:50 PM
Gotta stick up for Steamer5 on this one crueby.  Since the elves read the forum, and you posted the pictures, then YOU told the elves - not him.  No passing the buck on that one.

Don

Hi Don,
 Thanks for sticking up for me......I was just pointing out the error of Chris's ways & sheesh I got picked on!  :lolb: :lolb: :lolb:

Chris,
 Keep up the good work!

Oh IF the elves are outside have the taken the Lombard out for quick lap??

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 14, 2019, 06:03:34 PM
Gotta stick up for Steamer5 on this one crueby.  Since the elves read the forum, and you posted the pictures, then YOU told the elves - not him.  No passing the buck on that one.

Don

Hi Don,
 Thanks for sticking up for me......I was just pointing out the error of Chris's ways & sheesh I got picked on!  :lolb: :lolb: :lolb:

Chris,
 Keep up the good work!

Oh IF the elves are outside have the taken the Lombard out for quick lap??

Cheers Kerrin
The weather here has been changing quickly between warm/sunny and cold/rainy/windy, so no Lombard trips around the driveway yet. Getting close to that though! I do have a newer burner that I picked up and want to try, see if it comes up to pressure quicker. Also thinking of disconnecting the exhaust tube and see if it breathes better - some of the discussions on other threads have me wondering if I had made the passages/tubes too small, since it does seem to have better power on compressed air than steam, thinking its getting back pressure from the expanding exhaust maybe.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on April 14, 2019, 06:07:35 PM
Hi Chris,
 Glad we aren't the only ones have fun weather!

Sounds like you've got some playing to do. From discussion on loco breathing it sounds like you are on the right track. How much trouble to put in bigger pipes?

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 14, 2019, 06:35:37 PM
Hi Chris,
 Glad we aren't the only ones have fun weather!

Sounds like you've got some playing to do. From discussion on loco breathing it sounds like you are on the right track. How much trouble to put in bigger pipes?

Cheers Kerrin
The exhaust pipe does narrow down at the base of the stack, not hard to increase it there. The pipes in/out of the cylinder, and all the way back to the throttle and boiler would be a royal pain in the elf. I'll see how the new burner works out first, and can unscrew the last elbow and pipe at the stack base, and start there. Hopefully that helps out - it does run, but doesnt have as much power at the tracks as I expected. Part of it is being able to keep up pressure in the boiler, the current burner isnt enough to keep it at pressure very long when the engine runs, and it takes a long time to recover, much more than my G1 locos. The burner should help a lot.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 14, 2019, 10:47:44 PM
fortunately its a nice warm day finally, and the elves are out chasing squirrels and forgetting what I did.

Very dependable aren't they?  ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 15, 2019, 01:40:31 AM
fortunately its a nice warm day finally, and the elves are out chasing squirrels and forgetting what I did.

Very dependable aren't they?  ;D
They (and we) are like that commercial with the guy teaching his dog to drive... "NO DUCKS! NO DUCKS!" as they drive into the pond...   :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 15, 2019, 10:47:38 PM
Not too much to show lately, been cutting the piles of studs for the cylinders/chests, and today made up the throttle linkages:
(https://i.postimg.cc/y8cPM1rc/IMG-4850.jpg)
I put a row of holes in the lower links, to give me choices on connecting up the linkages and getting the right throw. Been burned on that in the past, design in the right length, and needed just that little more throw in the end, given how many links there are in the controls over such a long model.
Next I need to make up the gaskets, and can start final assembly and testing. Which always includes some disassembly, tweaking, reassembly, over and over...!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on April 15, 2019, 11:52:16 PM
Hi Chris, The engine in the pic looks great!   :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: I hear you about making the piles of studs bolts nuts etc. for multiple engines. Also about play at pivots in linkages. At about 0.1 mill limiters play in each joint, it only takes 5 joints and you have half a mill limiter slop! In engine terms - big enough to drive a truck through - or for a valve not to get kicked off a port.....  :facepalm:

Snug pins in links are best of course but then it's a job to get things to move smoothly. But when they do.........   :whoohoo:

Just think though - in a few weeks the sun will be out, the coats will be hung up and the only throw we will care about is the one from the mound to home at the local park, and the only links we will care about are the sausage ones on the BBQ!  :naughty:   :cheers:  (He said, as he watched snowflakes fall on 15 Apr 2019!)

I'll tell you the story about how mill limiters got their name another day.   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on April 15, 2019, 11:55:21 PM
Chris....have re-read :happyreader:, maybe I missed it........will this arm be re-positioned 'upwards' & how is this arm secured on the rotation axis?..........

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 16, 2019, 12:50:51 AM
Chris....have re-read :happyreader: , maybe I missed it........will this arm be re-positioned 'upwards' & how is this arm secured on the rotation axis?..........

Derek
Hi Derek


That arm stays down. It connects to the control lever at the operator station via a lever which comes up through the floor. The rod it turns has the vertical lever in the center which will move the center slide valve, which is the throttle and fwd and reverse for the engine. I will show all that once it is all connected up.


Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 16, 2019, 12:53:09 AM
Hi Chris, The engine in the pic looks great!   :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: I hear you about making the piles of studs bolts nuts etc. for multiple engines. Also about play at pivots in linkages. At about 0.1 mill limiters play in each joint, it only takes 5 joints and you have half a mill limiter slop! In engine terms - big enough to drive a truck through - or for a valve not to get kicked off a port.....  :facepalm:

Snug pins in links are best of course but then it's a job to get things to move smoothly. But when they do.........   :whoohoo:

Just think though - in a few weeks the sun will be out, the coats will be hung up and the only throw we will care about is the one from the mound to home at the local park, and the only links we will care about are the sausage ones on the BBQ!  :naughty:   :cheers:  (He said, as he watched snowflakes fall on 15 Apr 2019!)

I'll tell you the story about how mill limiters got their name another day.   :Lol:


Agree on the weather and the links. We keep alternating between snow and warm days. Lawns are growing, but no leaves out yet. First sub run at the pond in 3 weeks, with picnic.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 16, 2019, 07:59:28 PM
Working on making up all the gaskets - using the covers/caps as drill guides for the holes, then cutting around the edges...
(https://i.postimg.cc/cJwQ0LmR/IMG-4852.jpg)
Once they are all done, I think that I am ready to go through and do all the final fitting/tweaking to get all the parts running smoothly, loctite-blue the screws/nuts, and get them all assembled ready for valve timing. Very fiddly work, but close to applying pressure to the pistons finally!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Roger B on April 16, 2019, 08:05:09 PM
As ever still following along but struggling to keep up (244 pages  ::) ) Excellent as ever  :praise2:  :praise2: I do like the mini vice (make the tool to make the model)  :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: rspringer on April 16, 2019, 08:27:04 PM
I have not noticed this hint before.  Use a stamp pad to make an impression on the gasket.  Also one of the cheap leather punches from horrible freight is great to punch nice clean holes in the gasket.  The one with several punches on one handle.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 16, 2019, 08:45:03 PM
As ever still following along but struggling to keep up (244 pages  ::) ) Excellent as ever  :praise2: :praise2: I do like the mini vice (make the tool to make the model)  :wine1:
Thanks Roger!     :cheers:

If you increase the number of posts you display per page (in preferences) the page count goes down to 74...   O:-)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 16, 2019, 08:46:27 PM
I have not noticed this hint before.  Use a stamp pad to make an impression on the gasket.  Also one of the cheap leather punches from horrible freight is great to punch nice clean holes in the gasket.  The one with several punches on one handle.
Good tips!  In this case I had lots of holes that I wanted to line up very well, so drilling through the part into a wood block gave very accurate placements. Those punches would be handy in many other cases though!   :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on April 17, 2019, 12:37:05 AM
Dog your like a hog at the trough you don’t stop till it’s done. Still with you Dog and waiting to see this baby running like a clock......did I say .........I.........like.......  :Love:



 :popcornsmall:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 17, 2019, 09:19:32 PM
Dog your like a hog at the trough you don’t stop till it’s done. Still with you Dog and waiting to see this baby running like a clock......did I say .........I.........like.......  :Love:



 :popcornsmall:
Don
You must have seen me at the resteraunt today, trough full of Haddock!   :Lol:
Getting close now to first pressure on the engines!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 17, 2019, 09:25:55 PM
Today I've been installing the studs for the cylinders and steam chests. They are threaded in at one end with a dab of Loctite blue medium strength to hold them. After some time to set up, started putting in the gaskets and the cylinder parts. Also have been going through all the bolts on the conrod, eccentric followers, and crank bearings, getting them installed with the same loctite to keep them from vibrating loose after the engines are on the model, they will not be easy to get at later so I want them to stay in place. First engine is all bolted up, been using a small drill chuck left over from my old Unimat to make it easier to spin the crankshaft by hand. It all feels proper so far. I'll get the other two up to this stage, then start installing the valve sliders and time them - going to be a couple of days before they are ready for compressed air (nearly a hundred studs, plus all the other bolts to do). Here is the first one, I am debating whether to go down one size on the nuts on the cylinder cover - these are small pattern steel nuts, I have some brass ones that have a slightly smaller dimension on the hex outside. The studs will be filed back a bit more too, some are sticking out a little too far.

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZRkrbKJP/IMG-4853.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on April 17, 2019, 10:05:44 PM
Yep I would go for the smaller nuts ........ :ThumbsUp:


 :popcornsmall:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 18, 2019, 02:11:26 AM
Yep I would go for the smaller nuts ........ :ThumbsUp:


 :popcornsmall:
Don
The more I look at it the more I agree. These are smaller pattern than standard ones but not small enough.


 :ThumbsUp:




I have the other engines almost to the same point, just need a few o ring tweaks and will bolt on those cylinders too.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Firebird on April 18, 2019, 12:45:32 PM
Hi Chris

Here in the UK we have BA thread sizes which use bolt heads and nuts one size smaller than normal. I have even run a tap through BA nuts to get the 'LOOK' right

Great work

Cheers

Rich
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 18, 2019, 01:00:36 PM
Hi Chris

Here in the UK we have BA thread sizes which use bolt heads and nuts one size smaller than normal. I have even run a tap through BA nuts to get the 'LOOK' right

Great work

Cheers

Rich
That sounds right for models. I have a couple of brands of 2-56 'small pattern' nuts, each uses a different dimension - so much for standards!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 18, 2019, 02:22:26 PM
Switching over from the steel small pattern nuts to the brass ones, here is a photo for comparison. The right is the brass, left is steel, in the center is one standard pattern nut for comparison:
(https://i.postimg.cc/kGFHH2q1/IMG-4854.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 18, 2019, 02:38:00 PM
And just noticed that Micro Fasteners has some longer 2-56 external hex head stainless screws back in stock finally, get em while they are there! Just put in my order for some.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on April 18, 2019, 05:20:04 PM
Definitely a wise choice to go with the brass small pattern nuts, they look to be more of a "scale" size.

My question, is there enough meat in the nut at size in brass, to hold against your steam pressure?  The elves might not appreciate having to dodge any brass Frisbees.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dan Rowe on April 18, 2019, 08:02:17 PM
Hi Chris, You are correct there is no set standard for small pattern nuts. The original US formula for the across flats  AF dimension was 1.5 times the diameter D of the bolt plus 1/8". In scale terms, this is 1.5D plus a bit or the next size larger hex. This is close to what J.I. Morris did and I still use the nut drivers made by them. American Model Engineers used the same standard. I see that J.I. Morris has added stainless steel to the brass line but WOW...... they are not cheep in SS.

The rule for BA is AF=1.75D which is why one size smaller hex looks good on a model.

I see a lot of stuff that claims to be small pattern nuts but if they do not list the AF I do not send them any money.

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 18, 2019, 08:46:34 PM
Definitely a wise choice to go with the brass small pattern nuts, they look to be more of a "scale" size.

My question, is there enough meat in the nut at size in brass, to hold against your steam pressure?  The elves might not appreciate having to dodge any brass Frisbees.

Don
It would keep them on thier toes!   :Lol:




The brass nuts are .125" across the flats, and seem to be strong enough. I cranked down tight on some to test, and none stripped or slipped. There are 11 nuts on the front caps, 9 on the rear, so should be good. We will find out soon!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 18, 2019, 08:48:32 PM
Hi Chris, You are correct there is no set standard for small pattern nuts. The original US formula for the across flats  AF dimension was 1.5 times the diameter D of the bolt plus 1/8". In scale terms, this is 1.5D plus a bit or the next size larger hex. This is close to what J.I. Morris did and I still use the nut drivers made by them. American Model Engineers used the same standard. I see that J.I. Morris has added stainless steel to the brass line but WOW...... they are not cheep in SS.

The rule for BA is AF=1.75D which is why one size smaller hex looks good on a model.

I see a lot of stuff that claims to be small pattern nuts but if they do not list the AF I do not send them any money.

Cheers Dan
Good info. Even from same maker, I have seen different dimensions for same thread size in different materials. You are right, if they don't show the size, better ask first.   :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 18, 2019, 11:54:44 PM
Better than usual, 10 steps forward, one step back. I need to remake the outside pairs of valve levers, they are just a bit (0.100") too short from the pivot rod to the top hole, would require bending the rod end down to use as is and I don't want to do that. So, will remake them. Fortunately these are simple parts, just need to redrill some flat bar and silver solder to new rods. I had made them to plan, but the valve rod holes in the steam chests are off spec, and its easier to fix the levers than to remake the chests! I cannot mill down the bottom of the chests, since the steam pipe holes would be cut through. No biggie - just go get another bowl of popcorn...!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on April 19, 2019, 01:06:08 AM
Chris--No shame there. It happens at my house too. Change something that was designed right to work with another part that was---uh---Yeah, right!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ozzie46 on April 19, 2019, 01:55:53 PM
Still following along. No shame there. I'm on my 6th try at a V-8 Crank!!!   :'( :'( :'(

Ron
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 19, 2019, 01:59:14 PM
Still following along. No shame there. I'm on my 6th try at a V-8 Crank!!!   :'( :'( :'(

Ron
Like Edison said, now you know 5 ways not to make one. A v8 crank is quite a complex part! The cranks for this engine is the first time I have ever done a one-piece crank, was very nervous about it.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ozzie46 on April 19, 2019, 02:07:12 PM
That's true, and I just figured out that I was trying to machime them backwards. all along. Variuos miss cutsa ruined them but I just realized I had been cutting #1 throw at the fly wheel end. I'm really dense sometimes. :Lol: :Lol: :Lol:

Ron
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 19, 2019, 03:00:42 PM
That's true, and I just figured out that I was trying to machime them backwards. all along. Variuos miss cutsa ruined them but I just realized I had been cutting #1 throw at the fly wheel end. I'm really dense sometimes. :Lol: :Lol: :Lol:

Ron
Thats what I was afraid of doing - had a crank 3D printed to use as a reference, it was still confusing at times!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 19, 2019, 06:44:53 PM
The pairs of valve levers are remade, starting to install them. No new pics, they look just like the old ones, just a bit longer. Should be able to start timing the valves over the weekend, between other things going on...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on April 19, 2019, 11:04:44 PM
The pairs of valve levers are remade, starting to install them. No new pics, they look just like the old ones, just a bit longer. Should be able to start timing the valves over the weekend, between other things going on...
Fudge to fit, paint to match. works every time. If every thing worked out right it would be boring.
Gerald.
PS you can aleays say it was the Elves.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 19, 2019, 11:58:56 PM
The pairs of valve levers are remade, starting to install them. No new pics, they look just like the old ones, just a bit longer. Should be able to start timing the valves over the weekend, between other things going on...
Fudge to fit, paint to match. works every time. If every thing worked out right it would be boring.
Gerald.
PS you can aleays say it was the Elves.
Measure once, cut till it fits...   :Lol:


Gerald, we have our spring RC sub/boat run and picnic in a few weeks, you ought to come down!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 20, 2019, 08:54:39 PM
Big step forward - got the valve sliders lapped and gaskets trimmed on the first of the engines, and got the  valves timed. Assembled it all (takes time with so many tiny parts so close together), and hooked up the compressor to it. Actually got about 5 seconds of running on it.   :cartwheel:   But, noticed some interference on the eccentric follower on the left bank, and want to remedy that before something catches and crashes on it. Also want to recenter the slider on the throttle valve, it is too far off one side and the rod is having to angle too much. So, will take part of it apart again and do those tweaks before continuing. But, it does show it CAN run!   :whoohoo:
I did not get any video of the brief run (the camera-elf got distracted by a shiny part on the other side I think), but here are a couple of  pictures of the assembled engine to keep you interested...
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y9V1WH58/IMG-4858.jpg)
You can see the small drill chuck I put on the far end of the crank, makes it a lot easier to turn it over by hand.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zB3CvBcV/IMG-4857.jpg)
More later, or tomorrow...   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on April 20, 2019, 09:24:48 PM
Wow that's looking great Chris! Glad to hear a steady runner is not far off.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Re the eccentric link interference - as Stewart Hart has said, "a little clearance never got in the road."  :cheers:

I'm surprised the shop elves aren't getting in your way doing "par-kour" style post to post jumps on the steam chest studs!  :hellno:

(If they do, grease the ends when they aren't looking. Gravity and evil will do the rest.)  :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on April 20, 2019, 11:36:48 PM
Hi Chris  Looking good  :popcorn: :popcorn:  can't wait to see them running ..

willy
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 21, 2019, 12:57:07 AM
Wow that's looking great Chris! Glad to hear a steady runner is not far off.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Re the eccentric link interference - as Stewart Hart has said, "a little clearance never got in the road."  :cheers:

I'm surprised the shop elves aren't getting in your way doing "par-kour" style post to post jumps on the steam chest studs!  :hellno:

(If they do, grease the ends when they aren't looking. Gravity and evil will do the rest.)  :LittleDevil:
I like that solution, turning gravity to the evil side!!   :Lol:


Though I think they got some advance revenge.... I was doing a small repair on a spring wound clock tonight, and made a mistake while letting down the spring. The key whipped around and did a drum solo on my fingertips, no serious damage aside from a gashed thumbnail, but wow, does that sting for a while!  :o   Time for some chocolate therapy! At least the clock is running well again.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on April 21, 2019, 01:14:31 AM
That's a nice looking little engine you've got there!  Lots of little parts crammed into a very small space!   :popcorn:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: scc on April 21, 2019, 10:26:09 AM
Relentless progress as ever!      Looking wonderful.              Terry
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 21, 2019, 05:22:49 PM
Thanks guys!
During the test yesterday I noticed that the valve rods were binding vertically as the lever went back and forth - on the Lombard, I just connected the two together, the small arc the lever made during the movement was too small to worry about. But, on this engine the valve rod is much shorter from the lever to the steam chest, and the lever is a much smaller length, so the arc is more pronounced in its effect on the rod. So, took the levers to the high speed rotary tool and made the holes into slots, to let the shoulder bolt move up and down slightly. Got the first couple installed, it seems to have freed up the motion so I'll get things reassembled and make another test run in a while...
(https://i.postimg.cc/MXkMFBgC/IMG-4859.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 21, 2019, 09:03:20 PM
Got things assembled again on the first engine, all the links are moving well now, and it wants to run, but doesn't quite yet. Been doing some tweaking on the valve positions, and took the end caps off to see exactly when the pressure is being sent to the cylinders - I think I need to do some adjustments to the size of the chambers in the valves, they were left a bit narrow to allow for fine tuning, and they need to be opened up just a bit in a couple places to get the span across ports working better. Getting close!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 22, 2019, 12:10:05 AM
A whole bunch more tweaking, setting, valve slider grinding, adjusting nut slot filing, fettling, fitting, and general farting around, and I got the engine to start moving again! Turns out one of the passages in the right cylinder slider was plugged with chips/oil, and the left slider adjusting nut slot was too shallow, and the throttle slider nut slot was too thin so it was lifting.... All conspired to cause leaks past the valves so not much pressure to the cylinders.
 :wallbang:
Got all that sorted out, with many rounds of taking the steam chest off and on...
 :insane:
And then, there was much rejoicing!

First sign of life was when this happened - it is running, but very jerky, so the timing was off a little (the eccentrics are machined in, so the only timing adjustment is centering on the valve sliders).
[youtube1]https://youtu.be/hjdH5_hsXzM[/youtube1]
A half turn on the valve rod on the left cylinder, and it got a lot smoother:
[youtube1]https://youtu.be/nuRDdyKpRMQ[/youtube1]
Stopped to retighten the shoulder bolts on the levers (they are not loctited yet, so they tend to back out during a run), adjusted the pressure a bit, and

[youtube1]https://youtu.be/mq_Vk8fo03k[/youtube1]
Much better!  :cartwheel:   Oh, and sorry for fuzzy videos, forgot that this camera does not focus all that close in video mode, after it has had some more tuning (not today, going to sit back and admire it for a while!) will get out the tripod, clamp it down, and take more video. The throttle lever is not hooked up at the moment, getting the bolt in for that is a pain in the elf muffin, so I wont hook that up till I am more sure that I dont need to take the steam chest off again.
Here it is running slower, still has a leak past one of the sliders that can be heard when it stops, need to chase that down. In the middle where the camera gets close in (and fuzzier) is where I am reaching under the table to change the pressure on the compressor, changing speed a bit.
[youtube1]https://youtu.be/D0_VLLoHQkk[/youtube1]

And one more run for the elves who were off watching tv (lazy little so and sos) during the work all afternoon
[youtube1]https://youtu.be/C6oNuJl5h0c[/youtube1]

Bottom line: yes this design really DOES work!   :whoohoo:   The throttle is too sensitive, want to extend the v-shape of the slot out a bit, may need a new slider for that. I did test, and the reverse direction works the same, so that part is proven too. I figured it SHOULD work, since Marion did it successfully, but my version is modified a bit from thiers, so there was that nagging thought from that change.

Time for chocolate chip cookies!
 :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 22, 2019, 12:13:16 AM
Oh, and once the first engine is tuned fully, then I get to do it two more times on the others!   :facepalm2:   They should go quicker based on the learnings from this one, at least. Later on I get to build one more for the steering of the rear tracks - that should be easier since it is 30% smaller.... um... wait...   :insane:    :paranoia:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on April 22, 2019, 12:21:47 AM
Awesome Dog and that’s sweeter then a bowl of honey.... :pinkelephant:........oh and did I say ........I......._like........ :Love:



 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on April 22, 2019, 01:06:15 AM
Hello Chris,


Congratulations, quite an achievement to build such a complex engine on that scale. Sounds strong and smooth at even the higher RPM. Great videos also  :ThumbsUp:

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on April 22, 2019, 01:35:23 AM
Great stuff, Chris. Neat looking flywheel too----
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 22, 2019, 01:39:24 AM
Great stuff, Chris. Neat looking flywheel too----
Thanks Brian!  That flywheel is a Unimat leftover from years ago, no spikes but easy to spin!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Art K on April 22, 2019, 03:48:17 AM
Chris,
Runs like a top! and that's a good thing. So let me get this right, you only need to do this 5 more times?
Art
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on April 22, 2019, 05:50:34 AM
Congratulations, Chris!  That's very exciting!  :cartwheel:

There's a TON of work in that engine, and to see it finally come to life has got to be a pretty good feeling :)

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Firebird on April 22, 2019, 09:06:04 AM
Hi

B E A UTIFUL  :ThumbsUp:

Cheers

Rich 
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on April 22, 2019, 09:49:16 AM
We all knew you.....errr the elves......could do it!

Well done! Looking & sounding good as well.

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: scc on April 22, 2019, 10:37:20 AM
Another excellent result from Chris ( & Co)  Definitely cookies all round :ThumbsUp:                 Terry
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on April 22, 2019, 01:27:05 PM
Videos were great Chris! Congratulations on the first runner!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Adjusting a progressive throttle slot is tricky the smaller the engine is, and the shorter the linkage throw is. You may also find the throttle's performance is very different on steam than air. It's that damned physics again...... :insane:

What I have noticed watching operators of full size Erie shovels is that they tend to make full-on full-off type of control movements for the engines rather than easing them to start. This was important for operating costs when the shovels were used for earning a living. But one veteran operator at a show also told me that it was important for keeping condensation flowing out of the cylinders and getting enough oil in, which is why he still did it, at shows nowadays. Just food for thought. :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 22, 2019, 03:31:00 PM
Thanks everyone, its a relief and big smile to see the first one running now! I took a look for the air leak I am hearing, appears to be the right cylinder, think I must have taken the piston ring groove down just a milli-gnats-hair too far and air is blowing past the piston. So, will pull that one and give it one or two wraps of teflon tape under the o-ring to bulk it back out again, should sort it out.


Art - not that bad, need to time/tune one more for the model, and the spare one that I made for separate display (both were built at the same time as this one). Then, there is the smaller version for the steering gear to build - I think that I may take a break on the engines and work on the boiler or cab for a while first! Those are the only remaining subsystems on the model after the slew/crowd engines - sounds like not much but they will be a lot!

CNR - that makes sense, those guys were probably paid by the ton moved. I have a DVD of Marion shovels in use that I got from the HCEA store, its surprising to see something this big doing 3 or 4 scoops per minute from ground to  rail car (the crew around the cars were dodging out of the way!) At the logging museum in Maine, they always keep the drain cocks on the cylinders open while staionary, and close them slowly after several revs getting under way - as I recall they still keep them cracked open a bit, they would rather waste a little steam than crack a cylinder.
Thanks all for following along and helping out with questions/tips!   :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 22, 2019, 04:58:12 PM
And even more celebration - pulled the cylinder off so I could get to the piston rings, and put a single layer of teflon plumbers tape under the o-rings to bulk them out just that little bit more. Now the huige air leak is gone, and it is running down to a nice slow speed on much less pressure!   :whoohoo: Also tested with the throttle a bit, it can speed up/slow down the revs, and the reverse/forward is functional just fine too.
Here is a short video of it running this morning (also found the setting in the camera for close up focus in video mode, so it should be sharper too)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZpH4xJNyEI
 :pinkelephant:    :cartwheel:
Next I'll put a little blue loctite on the shoulder bolt threads to keep them from backing out every 30 seconds of running, and get some oil on the shoulders sections. There is a film of oil in the cylinders already. After that is set, I'll get out the tripod and do a longer run with throttle, then can start tuning the other two engines.
Much rejoicing, time to take the elves out for lunch!   :LickLips:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on April 22, 2019, 05:16:34 PM
Excellent tuning result Chris!  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: JC54 on April 22, 2019, 09:48:14 PM
I think you and the elves deserve a real gut busting slap up lunch.  :old: :DrinkPint:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 22, 2019, 10:22:38 PM
I think you and the elves deserve a real gut busting slap up lunch.  :old: :DrinkPint:
Was going to, but got a call from one of my boating buddies and we took the canoes out to the local creek for a run this afternoon instead, all the clouds cleared out and it was a great day on the water. A big swan was building a nest at one spot, did not see any of the Herons or Egrets this time out. There was a bald eagle hanging out there last week, probably moved on to the bay at the lake by now. The turtles have migrated back in too...  :Lol:
Good evening to watch a movie with the elves (the popcorn fights get pretty intense)...
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on April 22, 2019, 11:16:01 PM
Quote....'I have a DVD of Marion shovels in use .......they would rather waste a little steam than crack a cylinder' ....Chris.....do you mean over powered?, or being used  [at speed] beyond their design?................[or slamming :killcomputer: the engine into reverse prior to achieving a stationary rotation or moment?]

We see so many examples [in model engineering] of Stephensons reversing gear being thrust into reverse prior to engine the engine rotation is at rest

[I am uning a pair of servo slowdowns....the 1st to slow the speed of the throttle speed to zero, then the second slow down the reversing motion....as common RC servos rotate at 60 degrees in say 0.2 seconds which is totally unrealistic :Director: as we are looking more for near 10x fold of that rotational speed]

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 22, 2019, 11:29:35 PM
Quote....'I have a DVD of Marion shovels in use .......they would rather waste a little steam than crack a cylinder' Chris.....do you mean over powered?, or being used  [at speed] beyond their design?................[or slamming :killcomputer: the engine into reverse prior to achieving a stationary rotation or moment?]

We see so many examples [in model engineering] of Stephensons reversing gear being thrust into reverse prior to engine the engine rotation is at rest

[I am uning a pair of servo slowdowns....the 1st to slow the speed of the throttle speed to zero, then the second slow down the reversing motion....as common RC servos rotate at 60 degrees in say 0.2 seconds which is totally unrealistic :Director: as we are looking more for near 10x fold of that rotational speed]

Derek
Hi Derek - I was talking about two different machines there, the comments about the drain cocks and wasting steam were referring to the Lombard Log Hauler up at the museum in Maine, not the Marion shovels. When they are showing the Lombard at thier events, they are not pulling any load at all, so the machine at that point is WAY overpowered. They keep the drain cocks on the cylinder cracked open to prevent condensation buildup, both at rest and during slow speed running when giving rides. They usually run at only about 2 or 3 mph, and with no load the throttle is barely cracked open - the stephenson linkage is only out to the first detent, so lots of cutoff too. If they gave it full power at start, it would do a major burnout! When they taught me to run the thhrottle/etc controls, I was surprised at how little the steam had to be opened up, but it makes sense, under real use they were hauling many tons of logs, so on level ground with just some passengers in the back, it is just barely ticking over.   :)
Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gbritnell on April 23, 2019, 12:29:05 PM
Outstanding job Chris!
gbritnell
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on April 23, 2019, 12:50:27 PM
It will be interesting to see how fast/slow the boom will move once these engines are hooked up.  The fact that you could slow the speed appreciably is encouraging.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: J.L. on April 23, 2019, 01:04:48 PM
Hi Chris,

What a labour of love. You must be very pleased. I'll bet the end game in your head of seeing that boom operate under power must be driving you on constantly.
What a project!

Cheers...John
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 23, 2019, 04:13:59 PM
Thanks guys! Definitely looking forward to seeing the boom swing and dipper move under power, very glad it is running slower now or it would be a problem. The gearing will bring it down another 5:1 or so as I recall. Some other things took priority today, hope to get back in the shop more tomorrow again - with the weather improving outside stuff is  taking over!

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on April 23, 2019, 04:24:45 PM
Awwwww the sound of success she purrrs like a kitten! Damn nice work Dog and great craftsmship.  :praise2: keep it coming!...... :ThumbsUp:


 :popcornsmall:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 23, 2019, 11:29:54 PM
Thanks Don!

No shop time at all today, wasted the day waiting on those dingleberries at the phone company to show up to fix my mother's phone cross town....   :cussing:

Sigh.  Time to curl up with the elves and watch a movie...! 
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on April 23, 2019, 11:55:03 PM
Phone companies - and cable/ satellite / fibre optic TV companies -  hopeless everywhere, it seems......... :rant: :rant: :rant:

Enjoy the movie!  :cheers:   

(don't forget the body armour in case the elves' popcorn fights escalate to frozen 6 oz wads of un-popped kernels in ice, fired from miniature trebuchets, again...)  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 24, 2019, 12:02:35 AM
Phone companies - and cable/ satellite / fibre optic TV companies -  hopeless everywhere, it seems......... :rant: :rant: :rant:

Enjoy the movie!  :cheers:   

(don't forget the body armour in case the elves' popcorn fights escalate to frozen 6 oz wads of un-popped kernels in ice, fired from miniature trebuchets, again...)  :Lol:


 :Lol:   
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 24, 2019, 01:16:11 PM
As promised, a video of the throttle in action. This starts in one direction, then switches to the other direction and shows the speed change with the throttle movements...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJm4byF3RLo

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 24, 2019, 08:54:23 PM
This afternoon saw the second slew/crowd engine running - also threw in the main hoist engine in the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JC61eChw35I
The third one has a piston o ring leak, need to fix that. I am not real happy with any of the o-rings on the pistons, going to re-visit the fit on them, may remake the piston heads on them all while I am at it (simple part, takes longer to pull the cylinder and reinstall it than to turn the piston again, and I would prefer a proper fit on them)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: sco on April 24, 2019, 09:00:50 PM
Leaks there may be but that's just fine tuning to sort - they seem pretty fine to me!  :-)

Simon.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 24, 2019, 09:09:45 PM
Leaks there may be but that's just fine tuning to sort - they seem pretty fine to me!  :-)

Simon.
Oh yes, I am VERY pleased with how they are doing, several months of wondering if the design was right are past. I think 'chuffed' is one of the terms our friends across the puddle would use?   :headscratch: Hope thats right. Remaking the piston heads is simple, and I need to pull the cylinders off anyway I do the fix, might as well do a proper job of it.

 :cheers:

I had held off making the steering engine at the same time, wanting to know if the design would hold up before committing to the smaller size - I have decided to make a couple of tweaks on that one to keep the crank and eccentric widths up to 1/8" for ease of construction. It will just require slightly changing a couple proportions on the crankshaft and the crosshead block, wont be noticeable but will help a lot since I can then use stock thicknesses and the same fastener sizes as on these first ones. Otherwise I'd have to go down to 0-80's for the end caps, which is just too small, now I can stick with the 1-72's.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on April 24, 2019, 10:54:39 PM
Quote
I'd have to go down to 0-80's for the end caps, which is just too small

That's where the elf assembly team gets put to work.   8)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 24, 2019, 11:00:42 PM
Quote
I'd have to go down to 0-80's for the end caps, which is just too small

That's where the elf assembly team gets put to work.   8)
:ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on April 24, 2019, 11:12:59 PM
Been away a few days with family related "life" problems.  Fantastic progress !!!!! 
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 25, 2019, 01:35:50 AM
Welcome back Craig!




Not really wanting to pull the cylinders off again(too many tight spots around the studs that are hard to get at) I did some rummaging in the tool chest and found a small open end wrench that would JUST fit in the side of the crosshead slot and break the grip of the loctite blue holding the piston rod nut to the crosshead.  :cartwheel:   Much easier to undo the cylinder top cap and pull the piston out than to pull the whole cylinder off. Did some measurements, and the o ring slots are just a thou or so too deep on the third engine. Guess I was moving too fast by then and didn't properly check fit and compression. Easy job to redo them at least!  Maybe this will finally get me to make a set of small open end wrenches with narrow jaws and ends, with proper hardening. The ones I have bought are either too soft or too thick, should be easy to make from O1 steel. One of those three year and one hour jobs!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on April 25, 2019, 03:20:55 AM
Chris......special purpose spanners  :old: are the rule rather than a norm

I constructed a gas regulator support with 3 equally spaced vertical legs 0.125" diameter and on a 0.67" equal spaced PCD .....angular face  :Doh:

The regulator has a 1/4" x 40 nut & cone connection to the bottom port of the regulator ie., in the centre axis of the support

All was fine until I attempted to tighten the nut with a 0.275" AF spanner  :facepalm: ......the standard 15 degree spanner off set was not sufficient to gain the second engagement with the thickness of the jaw body

The only solution was a 5/32" clearance ground slot  :zap: cut into the ring of a 7MM x 12 point ring spanner 

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 25, 2019, 03:55:03 AM
Chris......special purpose spanners  :old: are the rule rather than a norm

I constructed a gas regulator support with 3 equally spaced vertical legs 0.125" diameter and on a 0.67" equal spaced PCD

The regulator has a 1/4" x 40 nut & cone connection to the bottom port of the regulator ie., in the centre axis of the support

All was fine until I attempted to tighten the nut with a 0.275" AF spanner  :facepalm: ......the standard 15 degree spanner off set was not sufficient to gain the second engagement with the thickness of the jaw body

The only solution was a 5/32" clearance ground slot  :zap: cut into the ring of a 7MM x 12 point ring spanner 

Derek
The slot let you swing the spanner slightly farther to one side? Slick. 


Companies like Wiha make great nut drivers and sockets, wish they would put same techniques to thin walled spanners!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on April 25, 2019, 05:37:04 AM
The throttle works great, Chris!  You deserve to be chuffed! :)
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on April 25, 2019, 06:31:01 AM
Hi Chris,
 On tightening your nuts ( :facepalm:) my Dads trick is to use a length of plastic tubing that’s a tight fit. Range of sizes of tubes to suit the nuts you use, & also a range of lengths.
Had some 8 or 10 BA  it’s recently to remove & replace & was starting to get grumpy with failing to get them on, the tubing made it easy


Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 25, 2019, 09:07:10 PM
This morning Ron Ginger stopped in on his way to NAMES show for a visit and a tour of the shops, great to see him again! He was the one I learned of Lombard Haulers from, so you could blame that fun build on him!  ^-^




This afternoon I got the piston heads remade for the first engine, which had really bad leaks around the rings. Letting the loctite set up on the connection to the piston rod, then will reinstall them. They are the same shape as before, just several thou shallower grooves for the rings. I will see how they run, then do the others too based on those results.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on April 25, 2019, 10:37:50 PM
Well I was gonna tell you how great the engine ran, but, AT&T  has scheduled a service appointment between the hours of 10:00am and 6:00 pm and a responsible adult must be present, so I have to leave home  :lolb:  Don’t you hate those kinda things  :Mad:. . Anyhoo, still a great little “runnah”

Cletus
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 90LX_Notch on April 25, 2019, 11:53:23 PM
I haven't checked in in bit Chris, wow.  Fantastic work.

Tiny endmills can be used to make tiny open end wrenches.

 Also,  Allen head screws can be used to make your own small nut drivers.  Simply drill and tap a rod for the screw.  Cross drill it and pin it.  Turn the knurl off of the screw to the desired wall thickness for the nut driver.

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: RonGinger on April 26, 2019, 02:31:46 AM
It was really great to see Chris all his shops-almost every room in his house is some kind of shop, or almost a museum with his carvings, and ship models.

I took this photo of him behind the model to show just how large this thing is.


(https://i.imgur.com/bNRyx6z.jpg?2)



Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 26, 2019, 02:40:26 AM
Ron, if you email me the full image I can get it resized and posted.




Edit:  you got it!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on April 26, 2019, 09:34:44 AM
This is an interesting snap, as it confirms [I think :facepalm:] a moment or point of balance of the machine

I understand a big mass of boiler room & machinery is to be placed aft ..but the balance point is still a long way back from the action, :Director: and the center axis between the sets of crawler tracks

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steam Haulage on April 26, 2019, 10:16:43 AM
Derek,
Have you any concept of the weight of these machines?  I have been studying them for as long as Chris has been on this design and build and have not seen any trace of balance problems on working machines of whatever origin, US or UK when digging. That is true for all the power options which were available, steam, diesel, electric, petrol. The maximum weight of the dipper (bucket) in the Marion 91 was not particularly great being in proportion to the weight of the house and its machinery.
Chris' model is a scaled version of an actual machine which he has been able to visit, measure and study in detail.
Jerry
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Admiral_dk on April 26, 2019, 10:22:45 AM
Great to see the Master (Elf) behind his creation with a proud smile  :praise2:  :cheers:

Thanks to you both - Ron and Chris.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 26, 2019, 02:11:57 PM
Hi Derek,
I think this picture will help, a render of what the final inside of the machine will look like.

(https://i.postimg.cc/htDmkZnD/Marion-91-2017-inside.png)
At the point where the backstay from the A-frame attaches to the frame under the floor is where the boiler starts, so its wieght is behind that point. Also, there are two very large water storage tanks, one on each side of the boiler, that are used to refill the boiler during use. The coal pile is behind the boiler, on the right end of the picture. All of that will add an awful lot of wieght to the back of the machine, bringing the center of mass well behind the front tracks.

The machine started out with a working weight of 120 tons, when it was mounted on railroad wheels. The addition of the tracks must have added to that, since they added the track frames and tracks front and rear, the large supports out the side, and another large gear block underneath.
Looking up the weight of crushed stone, I see one reference to 2700 pounds per cubic yard, and this shovel had a 2-1/2 yard bucket installed, so that would be in the neighborhood of 5400 pounds, which is quite a lot to have it that far out in front of the machine in the bucket, but even calling it 3 tons, that is a whole lot less than the 120+ ton machine behind it. Obviously it worked out, since the machines were a huge  ;) success for many years!
You do have a point about the balance - before I added the gear train and hoist engine, I had to have a big block sitting on the rear deck to keep the model from tipping itself onto its nose from the weight of the boom assembly. Now, even without the boiler, it balances well behind the front tracks, and needs a fair bit of lift on the rear deck to tip it.
As for side to side, the front tracks have a span of over 21 feet, to keep it from tipping to the side when the boom is swung over.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 26, 2019, 02:14:11 PM
Great to see the Master (Elf) behind his creation with a proud smile  :praise2: :cheers:

Thanks to you both - Ron and Chris.
Thanks Admiral!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on April 26, 2019, 02:21:09 PM
Really great picture. Now I can understand the constant references to elves much better. I have an old children's Christmas book with pictures of elves in Santas workshop, getting toys ready for Christmas. I think I may well have a picture of Chris' grandfather or great grandfather in that book.--Model looks really sensational too.--Brian
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 26, 2019, 03:02:48 PM
Hi Derek,
I think this picture will help, a render of what the final inside of the machine will look like.

(https://i.postimg.cc/htDmkZnD/Marion-91-2017-inside.png)
At the point where the backstay from the A-frame attaches to the frame under the floor is where the boiler starts, so its wieght is behind that point. Also, there are two very large water storage tanks, one on each side of the boiler, that are used to refill the boiler during use. The coal pile is behind the boiler, on the right end of the picture. All of that will add an awful lot of wieght to the back of the machine, bringing the center of mass well behind the front tracks.

The machine started out with a working weight of 120 tons, when it was mounted on railroad wheels. The addition of the tracks must have added to that, since they added the track frames and tracks front and rear, the large supports out the side, and another large gear block underneath.
Looking up the weight of crushed stone, I see one reference to 2700 pounds per cubic yard, and this shovel had a 2-1/2 yard bucket installed, so that would be in the neighborhood of 5400 pounds, which is quite a lot to have it that far out in front of the machine in the bucket, but even calling it 3 tons, that is a whole lot less than the 120+ ton machine behind it. Obviously it worked out, since the machines were a huge  ;) success for many years!
You do have a point about the balance - before I added the gear train and hoist engine, I had to have a big block sitting on the rear deck to keep the model from tipping itself onto its nose from the weight of the boom assembly. Now, even without the boiler, it balances well behind the front tracks, and needs a fair bit of lift on the rear deck to tip it.
As for side to side, the front tracks have a span of over 21 feet, to keep it from tipping to the side when the boom is swung over.

 :cheers:
That question got me wondering how much that the tracks added in wieght - according to a web search, a set of heavy duty rail tracks are around 5 tons each, so 10 tons for the pair. According to the Fusion 360 model, the tracks, supports, drive shafts, gears all total about 28 tons (huge castings all round). That means converting from rail trucks to crawler tracks added around 18 tons (give or take a few tons depending on how good my measurements were) to the original working wieght of 120 tons, so total of 138 tons working weight (includes water/fuel) of the machine. Quite a lot, though still 1/3 the wieght of a laden 747 jet! (hmm, how many swallows to carry it, they could grip it by the husk...)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on April 26, 2019, 07:52:43 PM
Swallows of what, to carry it?  :DrinkPint:    :Lol:  (husk or no husk, >hic<)

I certainly don't think there will be any stability issues with the model. There sure weren't any with the full size big shovel units in normal use. I have seen old photos of shovels in trouble from overload, ground collapsing under the tracks or the rails under railroad ones, collisions with other vehicles, and being stuck under landslides or rockslides, but never due as far as I know to instability of the machine itself.

Glad to see Bucket Bob and Ratchet Ronnie the elves are behaving themselves in the photo with you!  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 26, 2019, 08:43:43 PM
Swallows of what, to carry it?  :DrinkPint:    :Lol:  (husk or no husk, >hic<)

I certainly don't think there will be any stability issues with the model. There sure weren't any with the full size big shovel units in normal use. I have seen old photos of shovels in trouble from overload, ground collapsing under the tracks or the rails under railroad ones, collisions with other vehicles, and being stuck under landslides or rockslides, but never due as far as I know to instability of the machine itself.

Glad to see Bucket Bob and Ratchet Ronnie the elves are behaving themselves in the photo with you!  :Lol:
This is about the worst one I have seen - it is a photo of whats left of a steam shovel after a rock fall at the panama canal (picture from the Isthmanian Commision annual report of 1912). The remains are NOT the shovel in the background, they are the little bits of twisted metal sticking out where the red arrow is pointing! The guy at the right seems to be saying 'Dang, my lunchbox was in the cab'.   :Lol:   Now, in the report they go into details on accidents like this, they just mention the machine and time lost, never mention the crew that was in it...
(https://i.postimg.cc/L55Y0Bs8/Isthmian-Canal-Commission-Report-1912-Plate-43.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 26, 2019, 11:52:51 PM
Okay. Been fussing, fettling, finessing, fiddling, fabricating, faltering, fanning, fastening/unfastening, filing, fidgeting, fingering, and generally farting about with the last engine all afternoon/evening trying to get the fecking thing to run.  :cussing:

Finally, figured it out! I'm flabbergasted.  :Doh:

Got the timing down to the point were it would go nearing a full turn by itself, then keeps stopping. In both directions. Was starting to think I had fluffed the final crankshaft eccentric offset or something.  :noidea:

Turns out the silly passageway in the right cylinder valve slider is blocked with a drop of hardened loctite!   :facepalm2: It looks clear from both ends, but you cannot see all the way through due to the end walls. Finally got out a bit of wire to run down it, and on the left valve it slides right through. On the right one, half way in and bonk, stops dead. Shined a flashlight in one end chamber, and I can see a red glow.

Sigh.

Must have dribbled in there when I plugged the drill hole in the end, went in the passage far enough it did not show.  :zap:   


Now, on the very first engine the same passage had some chips in it, and I had made a mental (yup) note to check the rest but apparently missed one. The plugged one.   :wallbang:

At least the issue is known, but it is way past time for a break, will sort that one out tomorrow and put the steam chest back together. Again.

At least the lunch run was a fun one!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Admiral_dk on April 27, 2019, 11:27:56 AM
Oh man - things like this can really baffle you for a long time and when a really bad case comes around, you nearly goes bonkers in desparation and it is not only engines  :old:

Glad you discovered the reason as it help your sanity quite a bit  :LittleAngel:   :cheers:

Best wishes

Per
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: MJM460 on April 27, 2019, 11:56:53 AM
Well done on finding that one Chris, it was well hidden.

At least you now know that everything else is perfect and double checked.

Another significant milestone in a great project.  I look for each post every day.

MJM460

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 27, 2019, 01:28:30 PM
Hours yesterday fiddling and investigating, minutes today to fix the third engine's valve and reassemble it - then it just took off running!  To clear the blockage in the passage, heated a bit of wire and pushed it through the drop of hardened loctite to soften it and push it out. Oh, and wat5ching the video I heard the clicking sound, remembered that I had loosened the bottom caps on the con rods so I could apply low pressure air and turn it over by hand to see when the valves opened/closed - the con rod would snap over the fraction of loose space against the crank as it changed direction. Just went and tightened those again, clicking sound is gone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QLoV7DMMSg

So, now can get back to final assembly!

 :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on April 27, 2019, 02:11:01 PM
It runs great Chris! congratulations.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Glad the problem was relatively simple / not involving re-making parts.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on April 27, 2019, 05:41:01 PM
Amazing work, as always, Chris!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 27, 2019, 09:36:55 PM
Thanks guys!
Only a little shop time today, since there is one more piston to redo on one of the other engines, it was motivation to finally make up a wrench for the sizes I dont have a good small one for, 5/32 and 3/16. Simple bit of milling on ends of some 01 steel, stamped on the sizes on the sides, then hardened the ends. Works nicely, got the retaining nut broke free from the crosshead and pulled the piston, ready to remake the head with shallower groove like I did the other two the other day.
(https://i.postimg.cc/7hmpQK7W/IMG-4881.jpg)

Not super pretty, but functional and quick to make. Much better than the fat ended one I was using before. Small (down to 1/8") open end wrenches in decent hardened steel are hard to find, lots of cheap soft ones out there.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 27, 2019, 11:31:37 PM
It was really great to see Chris all his shops-almost every room in his house is some kind of shop, or almost a museum with his carvings, and ship models.

I took this photo of him behind the model to show just how large this thing is.


(https://i.imgur.com/bNRyx6z.jpg?2)

Great picture!
I note two elves in addition to the master...but no cookies.

What's with the elf in yellow? A few too many cookies?

Remind me what you put in your cookies.  :D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 27, 2019, 11:39:07 PM
It was really great to see Chris all his shops-almost every room in his house is some kind of shop, or almost a museum with his carvings, and ship models.

I took this photo of him behind the model to show just how large this thing is.


(https://i.imgur.com/bNRyx6z.jpg?2)

Great picture!
I note two elves in addition to the master...but no cookies.

What's with the elf in yellow? A few too many cookies?

Remind me what you put in your cookies.  :D
:Lol:
We already ate the cookies. Then Ron showed up with donuts. Yum!
That elf in yellow (Elfric) saved up his ration of rum balls, I think...
 :stir:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 27, 2019, 11:58:23 PM
Piston head remade for the other engine and loctited to piston rod, will reassemble tomorrow and test. Should get that one running better, it was leaking a bit too, not as bad as the first one was....
Then I can get the throttles all hooked up/aligned, drill for the mounting bolts, install the output gears, and paint the brass parts to match the steel ones. Then hopefully get them installed on the model and do a big demo video of the boom/dipper functions!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on April 28, 2019, 12:21:37 AM
Dog I hope your keep track of your hours in building this beauty and make sure it on the plaque. It is a awesome build and every detail tells you how much effort has been put into it. Still with you Chris and admiring the results so far.........  :praise2:

 :drinking-41:
Don




Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 28, 2019, 01:31:55 AM
Dog I hope your keep track of your hours in building this beauty and make sure it on the plaque. It is a awesome build and every detail tells you how much effort has been put into it. Still with you Chris and admiring the results so far.........  :praise2:

 :drinking-41:
Don
Thanks Don!  I stopped tracking hours at retirement, now its marked down as Some, Buncha, or Lotsa!  This project has taken a  Whole Buncha Lotsa hours!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on April 28, 2019, 02:09:30 AM
Lovely photo of you and i always wonder what people looklike   perhaps we could start a trend  ?? I might find one of me somewhere !!!!

willy
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 28, 2019, 02:14:09 AM
Lovely photo of you and i always wonder what people looklike   perhaps we could start a trend  ?? I might find one of me somewhere !!!!

willy
Wow, how many trees are all those blossoms from?  Things are just starting to bloom out here.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 28, 2019, 03:55:00 PM
This morning saw the last engine together again and timed, so all are running nicely. They do seem to like having the little chuck I put on for easier hand-turning of the cranks, they will all run without it, but they go much smoother and slower with it. I think I will see if I can fit in some discs between the frame and the gears as little flywheels - having the gears meshed in may be enough to smooth out the motion, if not the discs may help more. Something more to experiment with!

Anyway, here is a short video with the whole chorus line dancing away:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbZ4rpMTX50
 :whoohoo:
Next up will be to degrease and paint the brass covers and steam chests, and get the mounting holes drilled. Getting close to seeing them on the model, can't wait to see them doing real work on the booms! After that, I think I'll take a break from the engines and do some work on the cab framing, which is all metal now, though on the original machine the cab was wooden - at some point the quarry replaced the wood beams and covers with steel u-channel and steel plates. The roof was originally a corrugated steel, it is now flat steel plate. Sometime during its 43 years in the quarry the original cab must have decayed and they replaced it with what they had available. I don't know enough about the wood framing, think that I'll duplicate the current setup on the model.

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on April 28, 2019, 04:57:32 PM
Hello Chris,

Super cool to see them all running at the same time :ThumbsUp:

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on April 28, 2019, 05:30:19 PM
You've invented steam stereo L and R with midrange!  :Lol:

Better get on the blower to Bose with the idea! you could be rich!  :zap: :whoohoo:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 28, 2019, 05:42:20 PM
You've invented steam stereo L and R with midrange!  :Lol:

Better get on the blower to Bose with the idea! you could be rich!  :zap: :whoohoo:
Think I should wait till the smaller steering engine is done, so that can be the tweeter?!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 28, 2019, 05:46:11 PM
A bit of masking tape, a bit of paint on the brass pieces, and the whole look of the engines changes:
(https://i.postimg.cc/mDd78CqZ/IMG-4886.jpg)
Here is one set up on the boom where it will go, to drive the dipper boom in and out:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZnCpg0t8/IMG-4888.jpg)
Paint needs to cure up before much more handling - this is Duplicolor engine paint with ceramic, color is Cast Coat Aluminum, it is a good match for the 303 stainless raw color. Dries quick (recoat in 15 minutes, handle in less than an hour) and goes on very thin.

Still waiting on the photoetched name/number plates from NarrowPlanet, were supposed to be in production by now but something got delayed. They will go in the recessed panels on the steam chest lids.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 28, 2019, 08:59:57 PM
After some cure time on the paint (this stuff sets quick), did some more testing on the engines. One ran fine both directions with no flywheel, so set that one to the side. Next one ran in one direction fine, barely in other, found the throttle slider was off center on the rod, so that was a real quick fix, it is good to go too, runs with no flywheel. The third one has some sticky spots in the rotation, narrowed it down to the right cylinder, that need to be worked out, just enough to keep it from running free. It is fine at the big end, it is either in the crosshead or the piston/cylinder, needs some more investigation. That one can be the display model, and can install the other two and keep moving on while tinkering with that one! These engines have so much packed into a small space, and since the cylinders are in one block it is tough to isolate things. Learning a lot for the smaller steering engine though, glad I held off making that one till the larger ones were all done - going to tweak a few dimensions on the plans for the small one before starting it...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 28, 2019, 09:45:34 PM
Found the sticking point, the piston rod on the right side was screwed in just a bit too far, and was rubbing on the tip of the con rod, causing friction as the conrod rotated in the crosshead. Sorted that, is running better but not as good as the other engines.


Now notice that the bearings in the center of the  valve levers on that engine are a sloppy fit, letting the levers rock slightly so there is less than full motion on the valves. Thats next on the list!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on April 28, 2019, 10:59:50 PM
Your middle name isn't Sherlock, is it Chris?  :Lol:  Some detective work there for sure, tracking those little sub mill limiter items down!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 28, 2019, 11:33:09 PM
Your middle name isn't Sherlock, is it Chris?  :Lol:  Some detective work there for sure, tracking those little sub mill limiter items down!   :cheers:
Oh, please! I'm an elf, everyone knows that Sherlock was a Gnome!
(https://i.postimg.cc/JzQ7DkhP/Image1.jpg)
 :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: fumopuc on April 29, 2019, 05:33:29 AM
Hi Chris, the engines are looking beautiful with paint on it.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: MJM460 on April 29, 2019, 07:56:56 AM
Hi Chris, great to see them running so well.  I like the drill chuck flywheels though they obviously won’t fit in the cab.

The gears will act as flywheels, though the pinions will not contribute much and the gear wheel are going slower so store less energy.  (KE= 1/2.I.(omega)^2).  So half rpm means 1/4 flywheel inertia equivalent, and I estimate your gear reduction is more than that.  But lowering the bucket and boom should really smooth the running in that direction.

I keep looking at the interesting shape of the crank part joining the two crank pins.  If I understand the arrangement correctly, it is all the same side of the main bearing axis so actually an out of balance mass.  I wonder if it’s shape could be modified on the last engine to be more balanced and achieve some flywheel equivalent energy storage as well.  Might be a neat alternative to those outboard disks.

Still following in great admiration.  I wonder if one day I could make just one of those engines.

MJM460

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 29, 2019, 02:10:24 PM
Hi MJM, those crankshafts are definitely different. The angled connector is all off one side, so it is absolutely not balanced in itself, no idea why the did it that way. They don't run really high speed, but still. If it was a 180 degree offset crank the mass would be centered, but these are 90 degree offset cranks.


The two engines run fine without the flywheel now, am hoping the last will once I get the lever bearings tightened up and get the full travel back. Should know by lunchtime...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 29, 2019, 04:09:47 PM
Yup, that was it! A couple of bits of thin shim foil around the bearings to snug them onto the blocks, and it takes right off!   :whoohoo:


Now that all are running free, can start mounting them to the model.  But first, gotta mow the lawn...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 30, 2019, 03:22:29 PM
Gears are on the shafts, and the crowd engine mounting bolts are drilled for (uses longer studs through the boom). Still need to make up more elbows for the steam pipes, and rig up the control lever for the engine down near the turntable. The slew engine is ready to bolt to the floor back in the cab, need to pull off the first slew gear axle to get that engine in place and mark out the holes on the floor - that engine will not fit through the gap between the hoist cylinders from the back, needs to go in from the top/front due to the length of the crankshaft.
(https://i.postimg.cc/NMRHTW0W/IMG-4890.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on April 30, 2019, 05:14:50 PM
So you're telling us that servicing the real thing was probably a nightmare and any that serious work was preferably done by somebody else?

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 30, 2019, 06:17:58 PM
So you're telling us that servicing the real thing was probably a nightmare and any that serious work was preferably done by somebody else?

Don
If they had to pull the engine, probably! For the full size parts, there is more room to get arms/hands between things, but not an awful lot - they packed a lot into a small space, sort of like working on a modern front wheel drive small car. Probably why they made things quite robust, so they would just keep running... It would be fascinating to find an old journal from someone who operated one.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on April 30, 2019, 11:11:01 PM
Been looking ahead to the cab framing, want to make sure I have the stock needed and know how to approach it. Plus needed a break from engine tuning! The frame of the cab (walls and ceiling) on the LeRoy shovel is all made from extruded C-channel steel - dont know what the original cab was, I do know that it had wood wall sheathing and a corrugated metal sheet roof. At some point in its lift the original skin was replaced with steel plate, but I dont know if they replaced the framing too - the catalogs dont go into much detail of the cab. So, I will be making them the way the shovel sits now. Since the channel is not a readily available stock item (there are shapes like it available, but only in very thin wobbly brass, I am going to make it up to the proper scale dimensions. Two main ways come to mind to make it - mill/cut it from brass bar stock, or piece it up in silver soldered steel like the I-beams were.
First test piece is going the brass bar route, think it will work out fine. I started out with some bar stock the right overall dimensions, and made up a simple jig to guide it through the mill, past a slitting saw blade. The jig was screwed together from some bar stock, with the top/bottom bits milled to give them a step to hold the bar in place as it is slid through. Slidded. Slided. Pushed!

(https://i.postimg.cc/YSg9C1Vq/IMG-4893.jpg)
The blade is .045 thick, so it takes a few passes to get the full width of the slot:
(https://i.postimg.cc/wvpBy185/IMG-4894.jpg)
The stock was pushed through from the right side, then the end grabbed with pliers on the left and pulled the rest of the way through, keeping fingers well away from the saw.

Learned a couple of things:
- need to put the end of the shop vac hose near the action, it throws quite a spray of fine chips- I do need to stress relieve the bar stock first, it did take a nice banana shape along the way. In a 1 foot long test piece, it took a 3/8" curve (measured with one end held flat on the bench, other end was up in the air). The stock I have is about 5' long, so I'll rough cut them close to the lengths needed for the framing pieces and give them a hot soak in the oven (going to be cold tonight anyway, so it will help warm the house).- it gave a nice finish to the piece, think this is a good way to go. The back side will get a shallow notch on the corners to simulate the longer flat bar that spanned the frame and top/bottom sills.

The framing will require about 30 feet of this channel, so it was worth the experiment to see how to make it.

I have a box of small high power magnets that will be used to hold the siding in place, but be easily removed to access and show the inner machinery.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on May 01, 2019, 01:51:25 AM
Hi Chris,
Boy this is coming along! The engine looks the part on the boom. 30ft of “C” section........you are a sucker for punishment! Still it looks like it is going quite well, oh I wouldn’t worry about using the vacuum cleaner to pick up the swarf, just mumble about the gold dust, & the team will be in! :lolb: :lolb:

Going to file that idea away for making the beading to go on the tanks & around the door etc on K1......when I get there!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 01, 2019, 02:18:14 AM
Hi Chris,
Boy this is coming along! The engine looks the part on the boom. 30ft of “C” section........you are a sucker for punishment! Still it looks like it is going quite well, oh I wouldn’t worry about using the vacuum cleaner to pick up the swarf, just mumble about the gold dust, & the team will be in! :lolb: :lolb:

Going to file that idea away for making the beading to go on the tanks & around the door etc on K1......when I get there!

Cheers Kerrin
Better than the work involved in crawler tracks!   :o




I like the gold dust idea, but those guys would rip through the shop in a dozer!   :Lol:




I do have an idea for making better looking hoist chain, doing it like the way jewelers make batches of jump rings around a mandrel. Going to try that soon too.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on May 01, 2019, 03:40:38 AM
Hi Chris, I read somewhere that if you use an Apple computer for programming the mill CNC you get less banana shaped milled stock......  :paranoia: :facepalm: :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 01, 2019, 04:16:35 AM
Hi Chris, I read somewhere that if you use an Apple computer for programming the mill CNC you get less banana shaped milled stock......  :paranoia: :facepalm: :Lol:


 :Jester:



Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on May 01, 2019, 06:13:51 AM
Hang about were’d they get a dozer from?
Are they holding out on us, & building on the sly? Sheeesh they are a cunning bunch your elves! Hope they don’t have secret email technologies to contact the other enclaves around here.. :lolb: :lolb:

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gary.a.ayres on May 01, 2019, 07:04:46 AM
This is looking amazing!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 01, 2019, 07:08:09 PM
Working on getting the slew engine (which turns the main boom side to side) installed. It is a VERY snug fit with all the parts around it from the gear trains, the hoist engine, hoist engine throttle, and backstay from the A-frame. The only way it will go into position in one piece is to remove the first axle from the slew gear train and lower it in at an angle from the front. I did have to trim the tips off a couple of the hoist engine steam chest lid studs, which were sticking out several threads past the nuts, just enough to catch the engine as it tried to go past.
Here are some pictures of it set into place - have not marked out/drilled the floor plate for the mounting bolts yet, but it shows where it sits in the machine. Just above the A-frame backstay (diagonal black bars) connector pin at the end of the steam chest is where the boiler smokebox will be later on, the end of the boiler will rest on a stand that sits on that steel crossbar, the stand will straddle the backstay.

(https://i.postimg.cc/jjsJHpKJ/IMG-4895.jpg)
Views from the other side:
(https://i.postimg.cc/y8CRdJbj/IMG-4896.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/zGwgRzmr/IMG-4897.jpg)
50 tons in a 25 ton bag?   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on May 01, 2019, 10:02:45 PM
Hi Chris, I don't even think two bottles of wine, some nice music, and a bunch of sweet talk would help you get that engine in there..... :mischief: :embarassed:

You can bet your life that there would be crowbars, big hammers, chain falls, lots of bad language, and a can of grease when doing such an assembly on the real thing.  :Lol: but as someone else pointed out, the equipment was built very robust, to work for a long time with minimal breakdowns.

Your assemblies looks great!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 01, 2019, 10:53:10 PM
Hi Chris, I don't even think two bottles of wine, some nice music, and a bunch of sweet talk would help you get that engine in there..... :mischief: :embarassed:

...
:lolb:    Just gotta know how to talk to your machinery....   :naughty:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 01, 2019, 10:58:54 PM
I've got the floor plate marked out for the mounting holes - got the engine in position (see previous post!) so that the gears meshed loosely, held it down, and scribed around the engine base onto the floor plate. Then removed the engine, unbolted the floor plate from the frame, and clamped the engine to the floor plate. Now I can use the holes in the engine bed as drill guides for the mounting bolts. Didn't get to drilling the holes, got sidetracked on the computer playing in Fusion to update the steering engine model to have all the tweaks that I did during the build of the slew/crowd engines, and also modified the conrods, eccentric rods, and crankshaft so that the thicknesses were 1/8" to match the ones on the larger engines. Otherwise, the screws to hold the caps on would have been too darn small, and the rods so thin that I think there would have been flexing if I had kept it at the 1/3rd scaled-down sizes. More to do on that 3D model, to dimension the 2-D drawing sheets.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on May 02, 2019, 03:07:54 PM
Hi Chris, I read somewhere that if you use an Apple computer for programming the mill CNC you get less banana shaped milled stock......  :paranoia: :facepalm: :Lol:

Apples are to be eaten not Programmed.

Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 02, 2019, 05:07:20 PM
Hi Chris, I read somewhere that if you use an Apple computer for programming the mill CNC you get less banana shaped milled stock......  :paranoia: :facepalm: :Lol:

Apples are to be eaten not Programmed.

Gerald.
I like to squish them into cider....   :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 02, 2019, 05:09:27 PM
Got the mount holes for the slew engine drilled into the floors, and have been working on the control linkage from the engine up to the control station. Due to the tight quarters, going to make a slightly longer lever from the side of the engine down towards the floor, so that I can reach under the hoist cylinder to hook up the clevis. The elves claim their arms wont reach in from the end....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on May 02, 2019, 10:33:11 PM
The elves claim their arms wont reach in from the end....
If I was you I'd get the shop steward and go out and have them prove their arms won't reach.  You let them get away with something like this and the next thing you know they'll be demanding air conditioned cool rooms for the boiler tenders.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 02, 2019, 11:43:49 PM
This is looking amazing!

I hadn't been on the forum for while but when I dropped in....that's exactly the thought that crossed my mind.

Along with Stanley.  ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 03, 2019, 12:55:23 AM
The elves claim their arms wont reach in from the end....
If I was you I'd get the shop steward and go out and have them prove their arms won't reach.  You let them get away with something like this and the next thing you know they'll be demanding air conditioned cool rooms for the boiler tenders.

Don
Too late...   :ShakeHead:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 03, 2019, 12:56:19 AM
This is looking amazing!

I hadn't been on the forum for while but when I dropped in....that's exactly the thought that crossed my mind.

Along with Stanley.  ;D
I thought the rabbits name was Harvey...   ;)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 03, 2019, 05:43:20 PM
All right! Major milestone, the slew engine is installed and working!   :whoohoo:
The last change was to make a new throttle lever, which took the end down and around the base. The original would have worked, but there was just not enough room to get the clevis connected at the end when it was in the model, since the hoist engine steam chest was in the way of getting any tools in there. So, a slight extension and it worked out just fine (was a case of designed to work, but not able to be assembled)
(https://i.postimg.cc/sDmDbB9L/IMG-4898.jpg)
As you can see, the lever now has a little extension block at the bottom and another length of thin bar to get the hole for the clevis down by the floor. Where it jogs out is where the end of the hoist steam chest is.
So, here is what you (and I! ) have been waiting for, first run of the slew engine when connected up to the gear train and the throttle lever at the front of the model. The throttle is sensitive, will take a little getting used to which direction and how far to move it, but it does work with plenty of power. Some of the moves were a little quick, and scary, but on others I could feather in the throttle and make a steadier move. Maybe put a restrictor plate in the steam line, would allow high pressure for starting but lower the flow during moves? Have to experiment with that...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpHr9qyFVD0

Quite pleased with that result, going to take the shop elves out for ice cream!   :cartwheel: :pinkelephant: :whoohoo:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Captain Jerry on May 03, 2019, 05:58:44 PM
 :whoohoo: :pinkelephant: :cartwheel: Words fail me.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 03, 2019, 10:16:59 PM
I remembered that the air line coming in from the compressor is going through a 1 to 4 manifold, each leg has its own valve on it (1/4 turn from off to on, just a simple hole-in-the-post type). If I turn the one leading to the slew engine to be about half open, it still has the full pressure to get past the initial sticksion and get the gears moving, but it restricts the flow enough to make it run at a more reasonable max speed. Sounds like I will put a needle valve inline with the pipe to the engine when I plumb it for real.
 :DrinkPint:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on May 03, 2019, 11:02:33 PM
Words  fail me too  :Director:.........attaining the volume/pressure balance [for the commencement of slew motion] will be a challenge......

 :old: .....what happens if you fill the bucket with a load of.......lead powder ?

Just for interest, I am sure you would have a completely different slew motion and control if oil lubricated steam  :Mad: was the pressure medium

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 03, 2019, 11:22:10 PM
Words  fail me too  :Director: .........attaining the volume/pressure balance [for the commencement of slew motion] will be a challenge......

 :old: .....what happens if you fill the bucket with a load of.......lead powder ?

Just for interest, I am sure you would have a completely different slew motion and control if oil lubricated steam  :Mad: was the pressure medium

Derek
Rather than flinging lead powder around the room, might fill it with heavy chunks of dark chocolate...!
I am sure steam would give different behavior - good reason to use a small needle valve rather than a fixed restrictor in the pipe.   :ThumbsUp:   That way it could be adjusted for the power source.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: MJM460 on May 03, 2019, 11:54:50 PM
Hi Chris, for a start, steam will melt the chocolate.  And of course it will be interesting to see how you deal with the condensate on the intermittent action.

Congratulations on another great milestone.  Amazing work yet again.

MJM460

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 03, 2019, 11:57:14 PM
Hi Chris, for a start, steam will melt the chocolate.  And of course it will be interesting to see how you deal with the condensate on the intermittent action.

Congratulations on another great milestone.  Amazing work yet again.

MJM460
Hadn't thought about the melting. Hmmmm, a seal on the bucket doir to turn it into a cup of hot chocolate!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on May 04, 2019, 12:19:45 AM
I can hear it now: "Start the ^%$*())(*--&% chocolate pump Bucket Bob! the *(@&!@%#%^ bucket's full of hot chocolate again! "    :naughty:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on May 04, 2019, 12:45:29 AM
Fantastic progress Chris.  I check this thread daily.  When this thread finally ends on post number 5478648963146796, I wonder what I'm going to do with all the new free time :thinking: 

 :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 04, 2019, 01:21:29 AM
Fantastic progress Chris.  I check this thread daily.  When this thread finally ends on post number 5478648963146796, I wonder what I'm going to do with all the new free time :thinking: 

 :lolb:
By then you should be building a Bucyrus steam shovel so mine has a playmate!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on May 04, 2019, 02:43:47 AM
 :whoohoo:

That’s a (yet another) great step forward!
Hope the elves enjoyed there ice Cream!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 04, 2019, 03:09:15 AM
:whoohoo:

That’s a (yet another) great step forward!
Hope the elves enjoyed there ice Cream!

Cheers Kerrin


Buuurrpp...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on May 04, 2019, 05:29:31 AM
Super cool, Chris!  Hope you ate some ice cream for me while you were at it - I want to celebrate too!   :cartwheel:  :popcorn:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gary.a.ayres on May 04, 2019, 09:17:20 AM
Amazing piece of work.

Did you use a special filter on your lens to capture the two space aliens elves?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steam Haulage on May 04, 2019, 09:48:25 AM
 :lolb:
[/quote]
By then you should be building a Bucyrus steam shovel so mine has a playmate!   :Lol:
[/quote]

Perhaps building an Otis of 1836 might provide a reminder of how much human ingenuity had progressed from the earliest up to the time of Chris' Marion.
Hmmmmmm! the fourth machine to Otis' patents was built by John Braithwaite to work on the Eastern Counties Railway. ( Robinson. P.:2003 , Roundoak Publishing. ISBN 1 8751565 42 1)
The relatively simple Otis design might be within my own capabilities?

Jerry :old:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 04, 2019, 02:17:48 PM
:lolb:

By then you should be building a Bucyrus steam shovel so mine has a playmate!   :Lol:


Perhaps building an Otis of 1836 might provide a reminder of how much human ingenuity had progressed from the earliest up to the time of Chris' Marion.
Hmmmmmm! the fourth machine to Otis' patents was built by John Braithwaite to work on the Eastern Counties Railway. ( Robinson. P.:2003 , Roundoak Publishing. ISBN 1 8751565 42 1)
The relatively simple Otis design might be within my own capabilities?

Jerry :old:


The Otis design would be a great model, might be able to build one around a vertical PMR boiler. If you look at the HCEA web store, they have a very expensive model of it for sale.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 04, 2019, 02:19:12 PM
Amazing piece of work.

Did you use a special filter on your lens to capture the two space aliens elves?
Another of my secrets, mint in the chocolate chip cookies makes them visible...   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 04, 2019, 10:07:20 PM
I've started making up a set of needle valves for the slew/crowd engines, also making up a batch of elbows for the pipes (have a bunch for the larger pipes on the hoist engines, these are next size down). Same process as before, cut some squares of brass, drill/turn for the tube connections first:
(https://i.postimg.cc/k5ZZkxg7/IMG-4908.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/7LbdsBDB/IMG-4909.jpg)
Next will do the center portions...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 05, 2019, 12:29:32 AM
More on the elbows - lathe work is done on all of them, started rounding off the corners on the mill...

First one side
(https://i.postimg.cc/pLXkBqtp/IMG-4910.jpg)
then the other

(https://i.postimg.cc/8zK4XM1w/IMG-4911.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 05, 2019, 09:46:32 PM
Elbows and valves are finished up, ready to start installing them...
(https://i.postimg.cc/vH4fngn9/IMG-4913.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Roger B on May 06, 2019, 10:58:44 AM
Splendid, I'm still following along  :praise2:  :praise2:  :wine1: (I can't find an emoticon for cider  ;) )
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Florian Eberhard on May 06, 2019, 06:12:29 PM
Hey Chris

Interesting..! Another way to make elbows :)  I usually make them on the lathe - just as a long version of a straight fitting - then cut them into 2 parts at an angle of 45° and silver solder them together again. The last step is then filing the edge of the elbow to a more or less round shape.

Oh and you build is of course excellent! I always like the more complicated stuff because its more interesting to watch  ;D

Florian
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 06, 2019, 07:47:03 PM
Splendid, I'm still following along  :praise2: :praise2: :wine1: (I can't find an emoticon for cider  ;) )
Cider emoticon, with donuts!! We need one of those!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 06, 2019, 07:48:06 PM
Hey Chris

Interesting..! Another way to make elbows :)  I usually make them on the lathe - just as a long version of a straight fitting - then cut them into 2 parts at an angle of 45° and silver solder them together again. The last step is then filing the edge of the elbow to a more or less round shape.

Oh and you build is of course excellent! I always like the more complicated stuff because its more interesting to watch  ;D

Florian
I thought about that way, but not sure how to hold them for soldering. Do you have a jig?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 07, 2019, 12:28:59 AM
Great weather today so most of it outside, did get a bit of shop time this evening and got the slew engine and hoist clutch steam lines plumbed into the main steam line:
(https://i.postimg.cc/yNvGTYj9/IMG-4914.jpg)
Amazing how quickly the elbows get used up!  And yes, it looks like a bit of a three-stooges plumbing job, but this is how the original is too, with both steam and exhaust pipes running together. The exhaust pipes from the hoist engines, the tall ones ending in elbows at the top, will run back to the smokestack on the boiler when that is made. The dead-end one aimed to the right at the top will run forward to the crowd engine, first going up through the roof and then out to the A-frame, where it goes through a pivoting fitting on the centerline of the turntable, and up to the crowd engine, jogging around the hoist chain on the way - lots of elbows needed on that one.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on May 07, 2019, 12:46:26 AM
I do love plumbing  :Jester:......

55 years ago, an apprentice was tasked with plumbing up a small pneumatic machine with 1/2" copper tube & Yourkshire fittings

I was so proud, all the tube lines were square & neat....valves & elbows & unions all nicely soft soldered in :ThumbsUp:

All was fine until the air was turned on & of all places, a leak  :stickpoke: at the pressure port...........

Shock horror  :facepalm: I couldn't rotate the pressure supply tube from the port as there was no union installed........

Derek

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 07, 2019, 12:59:26 AM
I do love plumbing  :Jester: ......

55 years ago, an apprentice was tasked with plumbing up a small pneumatic machine with 1/2" copper tube & Yourkshire fittings

I was so proud, all the tube lines were square & neat....valves & elbows & unions all nicely soft soldered in :ThumbsUp:

All was fine until the air was turned on & of all places, a leak  :stickpoke: at the pressure port...........

Shock horror  :facepalm: I couldn't rotate the pressure supply tube from the port as there was no union installed........

Derek
Reminds me of a couple I worked with years ago. They remodeled their bathroom, did all the work themselves. Came out looking great. All done, they turned on the water supply. Filled the toilet. All good. Gave it a flush, no leaks  then they noticed the steam rising from the bowl.   :toilet_claw:   Yup, swapped hot and cold lines in the floor...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on May 07, 2019, 01:18:10 AM
Still with you Dog plumbing looks great.... :ThumbsUp:. I made a few elbow but not like yours might I need to give it a try......always great looking work Chris......  :praise2:


 :popcornsmall:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Mike R on May 07, 2019, 01:51:40 AM
I go without internet for a few days and I'm pages behind!


Nice work on the engines, to answer a question about why the cranks are 90 degrees out of phase, its likely to give the engine a positive way of starting, if they were 180 degrees opposed you could get stuck at TDC / BDC and the engines wouldn't self start.  Operator comfort (from vibration) wasn't a big concern I'm guessing - based on the other details you've shown to date!


Mike
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 07, 2019, 02:24:06 AM
I go without internet for a few days and I'm pages behind!


Nice work on the engines, to answer a question about why the cranks are 90 degrees out of phase, its likely to give the engine a positive way of starting, if they were 180 degrees opposed you could get stuck at TDC / BDC and the engines wouldn't self start.  Operator comfort (from vibration) wasn't a big concern I'm guessing - based on the other details you've shown to date!


Mike

Welcome back Mike! Steam shovels wait for no one!   :Lol:


On the crank, the question was not why the pins are 90 degrees out, but why they directly connected them with the diagonal bar, which makes the part more unbalanced. Having ng a double acting twin engine 90 out makes it self start. That makes ddle connector is an odd way to do it, but it does work.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 07, 2019, 04:25:06 PM
Well, I rarely do this, but they forced me into it:

In the past I have gotten wonderful photo-etched nameplates for the models (like the boiler front plate on the Lombard) from Narrow Planet in the UK. Great items.

A couple of months ago I ordered a set of plates for the Marion project, and as usual it takes them a month or so to get the item through the queue (knew that going in). A month ago they told me they were preparing the final artwork from what I submitted, and would get it to me for approval in a couple of days. Great.


Weeks go by.   :killcomputer:

I try contacting them several times, never any answer.   :cussing:

Just sent them one last request to find out the status of the order. Mentioned that if I did not hear back soon I would have to contact Paypal (reasonable I think, they can have my money as long as they are going to deliver, but cant keep the money and never produce).


15 minutes later they cancel the order, no explanation, and refund the money in Paypal!  So, they obviously read their emails, but dont bother replying without a good reason. Finally got a statement from them saying they were too busy for custom work - but that is all they DO!!! Everything is a custom order there!  :zap:

Two months wasted, now I need to find a new supplier.   :Mad:

So, rant over.

Anyone know a good place to get custom photo-etched plates made, the type with raised letters on a lowered background?

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on May 07, 2019, 04:33:09 PM
I do love plumbing  :Jester: ......

55 years ago, an apprentice was tasked with plumbing up a small pneumatic machine with 1/2" copper tube & Yourkshire fittings

I was so proud, all the tube lines were square & neat....valves & elbows & unions all nicely soft soldered in :ThumbsUp:

All was fine until the air was turned on & of all places, a leak  :stickpoke: at the pressure port...........

Shock horror  :facepalm: I couldn't rotate the pressure supply tube from the port as there was no union installed........

Derek
Reminds me of a couple I worked with years ago. They remodeled their bathroom, did all the work themselves. Came out looking great. All done, they turned on the water supply. Filled the toilet. All good. Gave it a flush, no leaks  then they noticed the steam rising from the bowl.   :toilet_claw:   Yup, swapped hot and cold lines in the floor...

Centuries back I worked at a Gas Station that had a Car Wash. When they plumbed up the employees washroom the toilet got hocked up to the Hot water line. This was not too bad during the day when you had to go and sit down you had a nice warm seat, but if you were working the midnight shift it could be dangerous. The hot water line was the one that was used for washing cars and had a high energy heater to generate lots of very hot water. During the night the hat water tank sat there absorbing all that heat (the water in the morning was hotter then the fresh brewed coffee at the restaurant), this meant that if you had to sit to use the toilet at night you made sure you did not splash! or the results could be painful!
 We had to get the Dept. of Labour involved to get them to switch the lines, if cost them $5000. to have it done plus $1000 fine. It also cost most of use our job there (They didn't say it was because we had complained, but within six months we were all replaced).
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on May 07, 2019, 04:55:25 PM
Re builder and number plates - just an idea - if you could accept the backing being 1/32" thick fibreglass and the letters being .010" high copper, you could have the plates made by any printed circuit mail order supplier, and in the USA, and for not much money. pad2pad and expresspcb are two examples. When ordering you specify 1/32" FR4 and maximum thickness copper pour PCB material. Just food for thought.

Another approach - have someone with a superfine resolution 3D printer make some full size models of the plates in PLA resin, embed them in investment plaster, burn out the PLA, and cast the plates in brass or aluminum in your shop. If you search for Myfordboy in Youtube he recently posted some excellent videos on making tiny leaf spring models and some gorgeous tiny handwheels by this method.

The engines and plumbing are looking good!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Re - three stooges plumbing job - I remember one show where the stooges plumbed a house and had running water coming out of the light switches, and lights coming on when they turned on the sink faucets! Now those guys were real plumbers!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 07, 2019, 05:01:29 PM
Re builder and number plates - just an idea - if you could accept the backing being 1/32" thick fibreglass and the letters being .010" high copper, you could have the plates made by any printed circuit mail order supplier, and in the USA, and for not much money. pad2pad and expresspcb are two examples. When ordering you specify 1/32" FR4 and maximum thickness copper pour PCB material. Just food for thought.

Another approach - have someone with a superfine resolution 3D printer make some full size models of the plates in PLA resin, embed them in investment plaster, burn out the PLA, and cast the plates in brass or aluminum in your shop. If you search for Myfordboy in Youtube he recently posted some excellent videos on making tiny leaf spring models and some gorgeous tiny handwheels by this method.

The engines and plumbing are looking good!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Re - three stooges plumbing job - I remember one show where the stooges plumbed a house and had running water coming out of the light switches, and lights coming on when they turned on the sink faucets! Now those guys were real plumbers!
For the names on the top of the steam chest lids, that circuit board method could work, but the others are for the smokebox door on the boiler and would be subjected to fairly high heat. I dont have the setup to do castings in metal, though 3D printing would be a great way to get the master made, assuming a fine detail plastic.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 07, 2019, 06:48:53 PM
Did some looking around, and decided to try something completely different (Python fans laugh here). I made up the stl design files for the nameplates, and uploaded them to Shapeways to see how bad it would be to get them printed/cast in brass. Turns out that I could get all the plates needed for less than the photo-etch cost, plus the letters will be deeper and the plates thicker than the photoetch versions. So, worth a try, put in the order for them, should have them in two weeks - will see how the quality/legibility compares. For a true comparison, I included a copy of the Lombard nameplate, which I have in photo-etch already, will be an interesting comparison - stay tuned on that!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Florian Eberhard on May 07, 2019, 07:55:32 PM
I thought about that way, but not sure how to hold them for soldering. Do you have a jig?

Hi Chris

Well - no actually not. I don't remember how I did the last ones (its more than 4 years ago :o )
I think I used small kiln furniture to position those pieces and then solderd them. If necessary, I corrected the position after adding silver solder.

But it would definitely be a good idea to work with a jig, especially if you have to make more than two or three.

Florian
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on May 07, 2019, 08:29:40 PM
Hi Chris, I look forward to hear how the Lombard photoetch / Marion Shapeways printed brass plates compare.

Did Shapeways tell you they were casting the parts in brass? The reason I ask is that their normal process for making metal parts is not casting. They usually 3D print the parts oversize in a resin filament heavily loaded with the metal powder being used, ie brass. After printing they sinter the parts in a furnace to burn off the carrier plastic resin in the filament, and bond the metal particles together (similar to how Oilite bearings and powder metal parts are made but without the pressing under high force step.) Have seen some great results of this filament/sinter process for jewellery or other parts where high accuracy is not needed but good finish and appearance is. Dimensional stability/ accuracy suffers in the sintering phase and the parts partially melt. Of course this will not matter so much if sizes drift a little on your plates or jewellery for example, they are not fitting parts.

There is another type of additive manufacturing called DMS for direct metal sintering. In this process a layer of metal powder is laid out and a high power laser passes over it in a pattern and fuses the powder together. Excellent finishes and high dimensional accuracies (+/-.003" or better) are very possible. The machine and run time in this process is far more expensive than the fused / sintered filament process. EOS make the best DMS machines I have seen, if you want to look into it further. In industry I have had several mould cavities made with this process and results are excellent. A 60 mm dia x 28 mm drum shaped insert costs about USD$1800.00. Cavities still need to be finish-EDM'd to size, but most other features can be used directly off the machine, the parts can be very hard stainless steel right off the machine. Weird shaped cooling passages are no problem. Lots of surgical bone implants for skull orthopaedics particularly, and also special turbine blade shapes with internal passages are made on these machines.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 07, 2019, 09:06:46 PM
Hi Chris, I look forward to hear how the Lombard photoetch / Marion Shapeways printed brass plates compare.

Did Shapeways tell you they were casting the parts in brass? The reason I ask is that their normal process for making metal parts is not casting. They usually 3D print the parts oversize in a resin filament heavily loaded with the metal powder being used, ie brass. After printing they sinter the parts in a furnace to burn off the carrier plastic resin in the filament, and bond the metal particles together (similar to how Oilite bearings and powder metal parts are made but without the pressing under high force step.) Have seen some great results of this filament/sinter process for jewellery or other parts where high accuracy is not needed but good finish and appearance is. Dimensional stability/ accuracy suffers in the sintering phase and the parts partially melt. Of course this will not matter so much if sizes drift a little on your plates or jewellery for example, they are not fitting parts.

There is another type of additive manufacturing called DMS for direct metal sintering. In this process a layer of metal powder is laid out and a high power laser passes over it in a pattern and fuses the powder together. Excellent finishes and high dimensional accuracies (+/-.003" or better) are very possible. The machine and run time in this process is far more expensive than the fused / sintered filament process. EOS make the best DMS machines I have seen, if you want to look into it further. In industry I have had several mould cavities made with this process and results are excellent. A 60 mm dia x 28 mm drum shaped insert costs about USD$1800.00. Cavities still need to be finish-EDM'd to size, but most other features can be used directly off the machine, the parts can be very hard stainless steel right off the machine. Weird shaped cooling passages are no problem. Lots of surgical bone implants for skull orthopaedics particularly, and also special turbine blade shapes with internal passages are made on these machines.
Hi CNR - the process they use for metals varies with the kind of metal. And may change over time as they get new processes I would think.  Here is what they CURRENTLY say for brass:
Quote
Brass models are fabricated using lost wax casting. First, the model is printed in wax using a specialized high-resolution 3D Printer. It is then put in a container where liquid plaster is poured in around it. Once the plaster sets, the wax is melted out in a furnace, and the remaining plaster becomes the mold.

Molten brass is poured into this mold and set to harden. The plaster is broken away, revealing your new product. Natural Brass is briefly tumbled. Polished Brass is carefully cleaned and hand polished. Please be aware that polishing can wear down or fill in very fine details and edges.
I would imagine that they have optimized their processes for brass, gold, silver, etc for the jewelry market, which is most of what people want for those metals. For Aluminum they use sintering, and for steel.... um, wait, just looking and they dont list steel anymore, pretty sure they used to, using a steel/bronze mix from powder... So, looks like they do change over time!

EDIT: Never mind, just spotted the steel entry. Here is what they say for it:

Quote
To build steel models, special 3D printers deposit small drops of glue onto layers of stainless steel powder, one layer at a time, until the print is complete. We carefully remove these models from the printer. At this stage of the process, the objects are very fragile, similar to wet sand. The models then go through an infusion process that replaces the glue with bronze, creating a full metal product. Models are then processed to achieve your desired finish, sprayed with a sealant, and shipped to you.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 07, 2019, 09:15:13 PM
I thought about that way, but not sure how to hold them for soldering. Do you have a jig?

Hi Chris

Well - no actually not. I don't remember how I did the last ones (its more than 4 years ago :o )
I think I used small kiln furniture to position those pieces and then solderd them. If necessary, I corrected the position after adding silver solder.

But it would definitely be a good idea to work with a jig, especially if you have to make more than two or three.

Florian
Thanks!

Another member here emailed me a picture of another alternate way - there are some of the brass elbow/tee fittings used for tubing, with barbed ends, that have the center part looking just like what we want with the curved edges already done. Take those, cut off the barbed tips, and drill for the metal tubing. They are available down to 1/8" ID rubber tube. I found some online, and ordered a handful - only about $1.75 apiece - when they get here I'll try them out and post some pics after modifying them. This is what they look like to start, should save a few steps:

(https://hosewarehouse-guoitdlumahpx.netdna-ssl.com/media/catalog/product/cache/c687aa7517cf01e65c009f6943c2b1e9/1/7/177-0202.png)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 07, 2019, 09:21:53 PM
This afternoon (morning got eaten by the computer in one of its time-warps) I got the new piping and valves tested out on the hoist/slew engines. It was acting odd, like the flow was way down on the slew side of things. Tracked it back to the first Tee fitting, which I had through-drilled at the tubing size rather than leaving a step, so the tubing had slid in too far and blocked the side hole partly. Whoops. All the others have the step, missed on that one. So, re-soldered that in the proper place, and that got the flow back, but then I found a spot on the hoist clutch valve tube that I want to redo to fix a leak. Round and round we go...!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gary.a.ayres on May 08, 2019, 06:24:25 AM
Need for final fettling notwithstanding, the plumbing looks great.

 :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 08, 2019, 02:24:27 PM
Well, the 3d print/cast route is out - the level of detail needed is just too small for their machines and it got bounced on review before printing. Took another look, and to get the lettering thick enough just does not work. Back to finding a photo-etch solution!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dave Otto on May 08, 2019, 05:01:21 PM
Photo etching is really a pretty easy process to do in the home shop, attached is a photo of a small R&V tag I made for a friends engine.

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 08, 2019, 05:58:41 PM
Photo etching is really a pretty easy process to do in the home shop, attached is a photo of a small R&V tag I made for a friends engine.

Dave
That looks great!  I looked at a couple of home kits, one thing they seemed to have in common was needing a mask printed with toner based printer or copier. Can it be done with inkjet?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dave Otto on May 08, 2019, 06:14:32 PM
I used press-n-peal transfer paper and a laser printer, http://www.techniks.com/
Not sure if there is a process for ink jet, you could always run down to the copy store to do the print.
I purchased my ferric chloride from Radio Shack and used an iron to do the transfer, probably no need to purchase a kit.

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 09, 2019, 12:07:13 AM
I used press-n-peal transfer paper and a laser printer, http://www.techniks.com/ (http://www.techniks.com/)
Not sure if there is a process for ink jet, you could always run down to the copy store to do the print.
I purchased my ferric chloride from Radio Shack and used an iron to do the transfer, probably no need to purchase a kit.

Dave
Thanks - will check them out. That system looks pretty straightforward. I assume you put a solid layer on the back so you only etched the front? Systems like the Micromark one jump through a lot of hoops to do through-etching on thin sheets, where we just want a single-sided etch which should be simpler, without all the special alignments needed. Also, looks like this does not need any light exposure step, the transfer paper does the same job?

Afterthought - I have been using a pigment based inkjet printer for years (since I was on the R&D team at Kodak that created them), but am down to my last couple of cartridges that followed me home when they went bust and blew up all the buildings. So, was figuring on getting a toner-based machine soon anyway, since the inkjet companies (ours included) didnt want you to know that if you were an infrequent user, the inkjet printers wasted way more ink in cleaning the head than you ever got to put on paper.... So, may have a way to print on the transfer paper directly soon...!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dave Otto on May 09, 2019, 12:42:34 AM
Yes, I used vinyl tape to seal the back and other areas not to be etched.

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gadabout on May 09, 2019, 01:09:33 AM
I remember doing a circuit board a few years ago using the work photocopier and Ironing it on , think I had the darkness button wound right up the scale so there was more black stuff on the paper! Got something in my mind that I had to print it out in reverse too. then etched it , worked a treat!
Mark
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 09, 2019, 02:26:26 AM
Yes, I used vinyl tape to seal the back and other areas not to be etched.

Dave
Like vinyl electrical tape?

I've got a toner laser printer coming, going to pick up some of the sheets you pointed me at and give it a try!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 09, 2019, 09:19:25 PM
Back in the shop a few times today, got the redesigned version of the hoist clutch valve base made, combining the old base with the fitting on the end of the drum shaft and rerouting the pipes. The old one worked, but it always looked like the wrong end of a shop gnome.   :o

So, new one is in and working, and I can get back to plumbing in the crowd engine!
(https://i.postimg.cc/YSRXwthR/IMG-4915.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on May 10, 2019, 12:12:46 AM
"Wrong end of a shop gnome", eh?

Is that similar to "the northbound end of a southbound moose"?

Just kidding, the hoist valve looks great!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 10, 2019, 12:23:28 AM
"Wrong end of a shop gnome", eh?

Is that similar to "the northbound end of a southbound moose"?

Just kidding, the hoist valve looks great!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Thats the idea!   ;)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 10, 2019, 12:31:31 AM
Started laying out tubing and elbows for the crowd engine, leading up to the swivel fixture on the A-frame head. Looked through plans. Looked again.
 :facepalm2:
Forgot to include that fitting on the plan sheets!

 :facepalm:
At least it is there in the 3D model, just need to include it in a drawing!   :wallbang:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Admiral_dk on May 10, 2019, 11:00:57 AM
Quote
At least it is there in the 3D model, just need to include it in a drawing!   :wallbang: 

At least you have done the major work here, though it is annoying to have forgot it in the shop drawing, it shouldn't take too long to edit the drawing. On all other accounts - you're doing fine on this great model  :praise2:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 10, 2019, 09:55:50 PM
With the drawings sorted out, today I made up the swivel fitting to allow the steam pipe for the crowd engine to rotate with the turntable - this fitting will sit vertically on the turntable axis just below the A-frame head block. Here is a shot of the parts - the upper shell to the left, the o-ring sits inside the recess at its bottom end. The ring is a snug fit in the opening, and is also a sug fit on the lower pipe, which has a lip on it to keep it in place and also to keep the o-ring in place. Then there is a washer with holes for the mounting screws. This washer holds everything in place, but is a loose fit around the lower pipe so it can rotate freely.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Wtcvy5rq/IMG-4916.jpg)
The o-ring seals at both the inner and outer edges - this is the same kind of setup that the hoist clutch pipe has where it goes into the hoist drum axle, that is working fine so I am expecting this to as well.

Here it is all assembled, will fit into elbows top and bottom.
(https://i.postimg.cc/d3yFnb7K/IMG-4917.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on May 11, 2019, 01:18:49 AM
Just picture Don Adams , Agent 86 on "Get Smart" saying "Ohhhh, the old diametral sealing o-ring trick, eh?"

Then Barbara Feldon , Agent 99, would say "Don't forget the silicone grease, Max!"

>ahem<  :mischief: :Lol:

Just kidding, the rotating joint looks great!   :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 11, 2019, 01:36:03 AM
Just picture Don Adams , Agent 86 on "Get Smart" saying "Ohhhh, the old diametral sealing o-ring trick, eh?"

Then Barbara Feldon , Agent 99, would say "Don't forget the silicone grease, Max!"

>ahem<  :mischief: :Lol:

Just kidding, the rotating joint looks great!   :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Wow, that goes back a LONG way! Heres to keeping KAOS out of the shop!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on May 11, 2019, 01:48:18 AM
At Christmas my wife got me a DVD set of a few Get Smart episodes just for laughs. Dumb, but funny.

No KAOS in the shop (or shovel), agreed!

As Siegfried of KAOS said "Schtachel! ve don't "PFFFT PFFFT" here!" He probably was talking about steam leaks..... :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 11, 2019, 08:25:26 PM
And todays part is brought to you by the Lever!  Got the control lever and bracket for the crowd engine made - turned the handle from some tool steel strip material, soldered on the short bit at the end, drilled the holes, and finished shaping on the belt sander. The bracket around it was hot bent from thin steel bar.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FsrbCjp6/IMG-4920.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on May 11, 2019, 10:05:59 PM
Crueby--That's a handsome lever if I ever did see one.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 12, 2019, 07:55:06 PM
Crueby--That's a handsome lever if I ever did see one.---Brian
Thanks Brian! I chucked the arm in the 4-jaw and turned the handle first, then moved it out 1/2" at a time to turn the rest. That gave the shape a nice symmetrical look.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 12, 2019, 07:58:15 PM
Another bit made today - made the bracket that holds the pipe to the bottom of the A-frame head, with the swivel unit in line with the pivot axis of the turntable.
(https://i.postimg.cc/L8jm3rqp/IMG-4925.jpg)
Few more elbows and short lengths of pipe to go to the side of the chain and down/back again to the inlet on the engine, which is right on the centerline of the boom. Makes for a few extra joints than if they had put the steam inlet out the side, but they did not so I did not...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 13, 2019, 04:21:35 PM
And we are there! After 3-1/2 months working on the slew/crowd engines, the second one is in place and ready for shakedown test!

 :whoohoo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IggqIC7PGsM
 :cartwheel:
Runs pretty well, took it slow on the first pass to figure out which direction on the control lever made the dipper go which direction. Very happy with how both engines worked out.   :pinkelephant:    These engines had some very new (to me) features that Marion invented, and I am very happy with how my small scale versions of the valving worked out - have yet to find another engine with this style reversing/throttle valve and double-decker D-valves. If anyone knows of any please let me know!


 :DrinkPint:

Thanks again to all those who helped out with tips/advice, much appreciated!   :cheers:

Next steps could be in two different directions - okay, three.  The last remaining big parts to this model are the steering engine (smaller brother to the slew/crowd engines), the boiler + water tanks, and the cab.  I want a short break from the engine, and I need the cab in place to finish plumbing the crowd engine and install the ceiling mounted controls for the hoist/steering engines. So, think I will go that direction next. As I showed a week or so ago, I need to make a model truckload of C-shaped channel for the cab framework - picked up some more small slitting saw blades (the one I had left was large diameter and getting slightly dull), and the jig to hold the stock is ready, so I can jump on that.  I am also working on a side project for the logging museum in Maine, more on that when it is done....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on May 13, 2019, 05:09:39 PM
Great to see the crowd engine working Chris! well done.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

What are your plans about the boiler and water tanks? Having built a few things with "houses" around machinery it always seems there is some conflict between cab/ tanks/  machinery / framework no matter how carefully you measure. Might be a good idea to rough the boiler and tanks in (even with wooden block placeholders) and leave them in place during cab framing. One important thing on these wood blocks - I make "fins" or blocks representing the real space envelope of every pipe run and valve. I find this reduces the chance of pipe or valves interfering with things and you can also study finger access for operation, or access to service things if need be. Just food for thought.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on May 13, 2019, 05:12:46 PM
Hi Chris,
 Congrates on the engine run! Very Cool!

 Think you are forgetting the other side track...…… sure Zee will pitch in here!

I'll have to remember your steam line pivot, can see that it may come in handy down the track.

Keep up the great work

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 13, 2019, 05:16:05 PM
Hi Chris,
 Congrates on the engine run! Very Cool!

 Think you are forgetting the other side track...…… sure Zee will pitch in here!

I'll have to remember your steam line pivot, can see that it may come in handy down the track.

Keep up the great work

Cheers Kerrin
There are alreadty tracks on both sides....  :Jester:
You must mean the one named Stanley?   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on May 13, 2019, 05:17:14 PM
Chris--That is really great. You are doing a marvelous job there. I tune in every day for my "Crueby fix"!!!!--Brian
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 13, 2019, 05:18:56 PM
Great to see the crowd engine working Chris! well done.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

What are your plans about the boiler and water tanks? Having built a few things with "houses" around machinery it always seems there is some conflict between cab/ tanks/  machinery / framework no matter how carefully you measure. Might be a good idea to rough the boiler and tanks in (even with wooden block placeholders) and leave them in place during cab framing. One important thing on these wood blocks - I make "fins" or blocks representing the real space envelope of every pipe run and valve. I find this reduces the chance of pipe or valves interfering with things and you can also study finger access for operation, or access to service things if need be. Just food for thought.
The water tanks are simple rectangular boxes, so they are easy - the boiler will be scale size and butane fired with single firetube. The cab walls and roof are going to be attached with small magnets/pins, so they can be removed for access inside, just leaving the framing. The framing will be bolted down, if possible that will be removeable with tools, hopefully - fortunately the spacing of the frames is large enough to get hands through, but as you say there is always one in just the wrong place!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 13, 2019, 05:19:51 PM
Chris--That is really great. You are doing a marvelous job there. I tune in every day for my "Crueby fix"!!!!--Brian
Thanks Brian! This is one of those milestones that makes me grin for quite a while!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on May 13, 2019, 06:04:49 PM
Hello Chris,

To build just one of those steam engines is quite the challenge, but multiple units and have them work in such a complex space is fantastic. I am really enjoying following along on this build.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 13, 2019, 07:01:26 PM
Hello Chris,

To build just one of those steam engines is quite the challenge, but multiple units and have them work in such a complex space is fantastic. I am really enjoying following along on this build.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Thanks Thomas - I may just need to have someone with a 1898 automobile swing by this summer to drive it out to the quarry for a photo shoot with the real one!   ^-^
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on May 13, 2019, 08:28:35 PM
Hello Chris,

To build just one of those steam engines is quite the challenge, but multiple units and have them work in such a complex space is fantastic. I am really enjoying following along on this build.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Thanks Thomas - I may just need to have someone with a 1898 automobile swing by this summer to drive it out to the quarry for a photo shoot with the real one!   ^-^

Hello Chris,

Boy you just don't know how much I would love to be able to do that. That would really make for some great shots with the "big" machine in the background and my Buggy for reference to show size / scale and with your "little" machine in various positions. You could make a calendar with the right shots, that would be cool. A Lombard calendar would also be cool. :Director:

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on May 13, 2019, 08:33:13 PM
That's really great, Chris!  Love to see the crowd engine doing its thing.  :popcorn: :popcorn:

Thanks for sharing the video.
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: john mills on May 14, 2019, 12:24:56 AM
Hi Chris
great to see the engines working .
last weekend watching a full size bucyus  a similar type of machine in steam working it is not hard to imagine your machine digging in the dirt pile too.It is not easy to see the individual engines as there  is a lot in a small space
the opperactors must have developed great skill .
  John
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 14, 2019, 12:44:13 AM
Hi Chris
great to see the engines working .
last weekend watching a full size bucyus  a similar type of machine in steam working it is not hard to imagine your machine digging in the dirt pile too.It is not easy to see the individual engines as there  is a lot in a small space
the opperactors must have developed great skill .
  John
Hi John,


Where did you see the Bucyrus operating? Not many out there, someday I will get to see one in person. Did you take any pictures or video?


Chris
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on May 14, 2019, 01:09:33 AM
Just another cog in the Game Dog and some more of your outstanding craftsmanship ...... :praise2:
And you know I..........like........ :Love:


 :popcorn:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: john mills on May 14, 2019, 08:35:44 AM

Hi Chris
Lake Goldsmith may rally  in Victoria Australia .
I will see if i can post some pictures .
    John
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 14, 2019, 11:19:21 PM

Hi Chris
Lake Goldsmith may rally  in Victoria Australia .
I will see if i can post some pictures .
    John
Love to see them! Back when I was looking around for a shovel to build, that one was one that I saw a short video of, which showed just enough of the inner workings that I could figure out how things worked. Wonderful machine, fantastic that it was saved and is still running.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 14, 2019, 11:25:02 PM
Got the c-shaped rails for the wall studs and ceiling frames cut down from rectangular stock (only off the shelf stuff I can find is either too thin or way too big). With a little guide block clamped in the vise to hold the stock in place for the slitting saw, it went pretty smoothly. The guide block holds it on three sides, and just wraps around the front face, leaving it able to slide through.
(https://i.postimg.cc/gkPPjfLC/IMG-4928.jpg)
It took several passes to get the full width and depth of the cut - fed the stock in from the back right of the blade so that it was going against the teeth, like a table saw. Used a pair of pliers to grab the stock on the left and pull it through (was just a bit too warm to pull with fingers comfortably). Very neccessary to have one hand or the other holding at all times or the blade wanted to shoot it back out the right side again.
After several passes on all pieces, now have quite a pile of C-channel to start cutting down for the cab framework...
(https://i.postimg.cc/jdQY7ZzL/IMG-4931.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on May 15, 2019, 02:18:59 AM


BAD PUN ALERT                         BAD PUN ALERT                 BAD PUN ALERT                      BAD PUN ALERT 


         I  'C' what you mean.......

(sorry, I'll get my coat.....)








Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 15, 2019, 02:20:48 AM


BAD PUN ALERT                         BAD PUN ALERT                 BAD PUN ALERT                      BAD PUN ALERT 


         I  'C' what you mean.......

(sorry, I'll get my coat.....)


 :facepalm2:


C you later ..  >:D
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: J.L. on May 15, 2019, 06:42:43 PM
Two-thirds of a bad pun is phew.  :facepalm2:

Chris, this build will go down in history. I believe it will be serialized in an engineering magazine?

John
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 15, 2019, 08:17:11 PM
Two-thirds of a bad pun is phew.  :facepalm2:

Chris, this build will go down in history. I believe it will be serialized in an engineering magazine?

John
Hi John,

As long as we pun-dits  ;D dont get too out of control, yes the same magazine serializing the Lombard build, Live Steam/Outdoor Railroading, wants to run this one once the Lombard series finishes around the end of the year. Possible each will be collected in book form too after each magazine run is complete. I recently sent the editor the first draft of the Marion articles/photos/plans, minus the last few chapters still in construction. Lots of work, but very rewarding.

Chris
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 15, 2019, 10:56:02 PM
Last week I got a tip on these fittings, made for connecting tubing. They are already the basic shape that I was making for the steam pipes, just with the barbs sticking out:
(https://i.postimg.cc/jjcryGs2/IMG-4933.jpg)
So, I ordered some to see how they would work out. The center sections are identical in size/shape to the larger ones I made for the hoist engine pipework - could be cut/drilled for the pipe very quickly, saving a lot of steps. The only drawback is that the smaller sizes have the same size center section, was hoping they would scale the whole thing down. They cost around $1.50 to $180, and are manufactured by Dixon - they also have Tee's to match. If you search for 'Dixon Brass Fittings Barbed Hose Splicers' you will find them.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on May 16, 2019, 12:14:30 AM
The only practical disadvantage I see with these forged body elbows and tees, is the physical mass of the body.......in model steam work, the mass can be a huge heat  :Mad: soak yes in both inlet and exhaust steam


Die formed capillary copper elbows and tees are available for either silver, or soft soldering....and in both long and short radius [for the elbows]

The mass is approximately 30% of the forged brass bodies of the corresponding size

The example sizing below is for 1/4" OD tube x 0.038" wall thickness....

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 16, 2019, 12:42:27 AM
Good points Derek! I have not seen the short radius ones here, will have to look for them.   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gary.a.ayres on May 16, 2019, 06:38:11 AM
And we are there! After 3-1/2 months working on the slew/crowd engines, the second one is in place and ready for shakedown test!

 :whoohoo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IggqIC7PGsM

 :DrinkPint:

This is just amazing...!  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 17, 2019, 12:45:23 AM
Thanks Gary!

Bit of a side-trip today, got all the things I needed to try making the etched name plates myself given that the supplier I had been using cancelled the order after two months of waiting (grrrr....)


Dave Otto showed in an earlier post about using PCB etching materials to make nameplates - that looked great, so I figured I would give it a try. I ordered some of the transfer paper from Techniks.com, and got some etching acid too - used my new toner-based printer (wont work with inkjet) and made up a sheet of images for both the Lombard and the Marion plates I need - figured testing with the Lombard plate would let me compare the results directly with the ones I bought previously from said supplier.
Here is the plate just after transfering the image with an iron:(https://i.postimg.cc/x89GPdMm/IMG-4949.jpg)
And after etching:
(https://i.postimg.cc/sxfShNC9/IMG-4955.jpg)
That copper plate is just 0.688" in diameter - the detail is pretty good, not bad for a first attempt with a new (to me) process! I have the plates for the Marion in etching right now - there are a number of small ones, put them on two larger plates and will cut them apart later.

Thanks Dave!!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on May 17, 2019, 12:51:13 AM
Great result Chris! that plate looks terrific - nice deep relief on the letters.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dave Otto on May 17, 2019, 01:01:20 AM
Very nice Chris!

I have some notes somewhere on how to get good results, but it looks like you are having no problem. Having the blank sanded and super clean is very important; also getting everything up to the proper temp to transfer the toner onto the metal is important. You can use a Sharpie to fill in any little spots that may have stuck properly.

I would set the blank on some folded paper towel with a very fine wire thermocouple under the blank. Then a some cardboard from the back of a notepad between the Press-n-peal to iron on. Using the point of the iron I work it around in small circles and monitor the temp to make sure it gets hot enough. Then cool it down in cold water before removing the backing.

How you position the blank in the etch and also how you agitate it will give varying results. There is a bit of a learning curve to figure out what works best.

Congrats it looks great!

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 17, 2019, 01:07:22 AM
Very nice Chris!

I have some notes somewhere on how to get good results, but it looks like you are having no problem. Having the blank sanded and super clean is very important; also getting everything up to the proper temp to transfer the toner onto the metal is important. You can use a Sharpie to fill in any little spots that may have stuck properly.

I would set the blank on some folded paper towel with a very fine wire thermocouple under the blank. Then a some cardboard from the back of a notepad between the Press-n-peal to iron on. Using the point of the iron I work it around in small circles and monitor the temp to make sure it gets hot enough. Then cool it down in cold water before removing the backing.

How you position the blank in the etch and also how you agitate it will give varying results. There is a bit of a learning curve to figure out what works best.

Congrats it looks great!

Dave
Good tips! I figured out some of them - wound up bending the corners of the plate so I could put it in the etchant face down and keep the residue from collecting, also gave a way to pick the thing up again with some copper tweezers. From what I have read, warming the solution will speed it up, but I figure cool and slow is safer for a beginner! I found the iron I have, on the Cotton Blend setting, got the plate hot enough to do the transfer fine - one time a section did not stick, so just cleaned it all off and did another try. Since it uses up a whole sheet of the paper to print it, figured I would just replicate the images down the page and have plenty of tries, that worked out fine since I did use several. Tried some on brass, that works too, but seems to etch slower. Also tried a vinegar/peroxide/salt solution I found online, that works too, is a lot cheaper, but is half the speed. I dont want to try any of the nastier acids, this stuff is acceptable with care.
Interesting that sharpie would work, would have thought the acid would clean it right off?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dave Otto on May 17, 2019, 01:17:24 AM
When I tape up the back of the plate I have added a strip of tape to use as a handle. Good idea on bending the corners down, keeping the swarf clear really helps the process.

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 17, 2019, 01:27:16 AM
When I tape up the back of the plate I have added a strip of tape to use as a handle. Good idea on bending the corners down, keeping the swarf clear really helps the process.

Dave
I like the tape-handle idea! The corners help, but the tape could be left long enough to see at the surface.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dave Otto on May 17, 2019, 01:44:23 AM
 :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 17, 2019, 04:40:18 PM
Continuing on with the name plates, here is a batch for the engines and boiler doors ready for trimming down:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Gm7hNRq0/IMG-4958.jpg)
Some paint....
(https://i.postimg.cc/VN2sfFxD/IMG-4962.jpg)
and the plates on the crowd engine:
(https://i.postimg.cc/qRnJz300/IMG-4964.jpg)
Very happy with how they worked out!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 17, 2019, 04:43:24 PM
And back on the cab wall framing, made up another jig to hold the small square bar for cutting into the angle-iron shape needed for along the floor at the base of the wall:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Gp4hnf54/IMG-4961.jpg)
A little hard to see in the photo - the second cut had been made, freeing up the small square at the bottom front, leaving the angle along the back and out on the top edge.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on May 17, 2019, 04:59:09 PM
Continuing on with the name plates, here is a batch for the engines and boiler doors ready for trimming down:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Gm7hNRq0/IMG-4958.jpg)
Some paint....
(https://i.postimg.cc/VN2sfFxD/IMG-4962.jpg)
and the plates on the crowd engine:
(https://i.postimg.cc/qRnJz300/IMG-4964.jpg)
Very happy with how they worked out!

Hello Chris,

Boy those plates sure look good.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on May 17, 2019, 05:17:27 PM
Another great result! They really look the business when mounted on the engine!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Speaking of business - when do you plan to open up "Crueby Nameplate Division of ACME Industries" and offer custom nameplate manufacture to the model engineers in US and Canada?  :naughty: 

(could be MILLIONS to be made, but not sure if it is millions in cookie crumbs, or pennies, or Canadian Tire money, or ???) :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 17, 2019, 05:21:55 PM
Another great result! They really look the business when mounted on the engine!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Speaking of business - when do you plan to open up "Crueby Nameplate Division of ACME Industries" and offer custom nameplate manufacture to the model engineers in US and Canada?  :naughty: 

(could be MILLIONS to be made, but not sure if it is millions in cookie crumbs, or pennies, or Canadian Tire money, or ???) :Lol:
Millions of bits of swarf!   :Lol:
Wait, already have that.... Dang....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 17, 2019, 08:15:37 PM
Back on the cab frame, cut and bent up a pile of roof cross beams from thin steel bar. I cut a wood pattern to bend them to - bent the arcs by hand till they matched the pattern, then a pair of pliers to put the sharp bends in the ends where they go down to fit into the C-channel. The straight bits at the end need to have a little taken off the width to fit into the channels, that is next...
(https://i.postimg.cc/RFPd8XNV/IMG-4965.jpg)
The lengthwise roof beams will be notched to fit over these arched cross beams.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on May 18, 2019, 05:31:35 AM
Wow!  Those etched name plates came out really nice, Chris!

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gary.a.ayres on May 18, 2019, 08:18:23 AM
This is shaping up to be a masterpiece. No doubt about it.

 :LittleAngel:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 18, 2019, 10:07:57 PM
Thanks guys!  No work on the Marion today, we had our first pond run of the season of the RC submarine group locally, here are some pictures from the pond:

Close air support from the Green Heron wing of the coast guard:
(https://i.postimg.cc/DZW04gLW/IMG-4967.jpg)
The fish were checking out my killer whale submarine (just like dogs, come up and sniff the, um, porthole)
(https://i.postimg.cc/0NybPxN0/IMG-4979.jpg)
Customs inspection

(https://i.postimg.cc/BZKtqmJk/IMG-4988.jpg)
Whale checking that the coast is clear
(https://i.postimg.cc/vBpBrVt0/IMG-4991.jpg)
Bruce came down from Canada with a couple subs, including this Seaview:
(https://i.postimg.cc/02CkQ3FW/IMG-5017.jpg)
Variety of other subs too:
(https://i.postimg.cc/NFqs9wQV/IMG-5003.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/ncxVnZR9/IMG-5014.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/nhRnKmHq/IMG-5012.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/HWwHZRYY/IMG-5023.jpg)
Fish chasing my Delphin:
(https://i.postimg.cc/C5sgRBPB/IMG-5035.jpg)
Inside Bruce's other sub(https://i.postimg.cc/PqvnmFVk/IMG-5047.jpg)

and with the top on:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Rh4rxCSM/IMG-5049.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on May 19, 2019, 04:15:49 AM
Hi Chris,
 Looks like a fun day out!
The Coast Guard Ariel wing didn’t do a bombing run on your fish subs then?

I remember Seaview on the box here about......must be ....... 50 years ago! Remember talking to another kid about ...do you think we could build a model of it? Never did, way above my skill level at the time....& probably pushing it now.

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 19, 2019, 12:47:19 PM
Hi Chris,
 Looks like a fun day out!
The Coast Guard Ariel wing didn’t do a bombing run on your fish subs then?

I remember Seaview on the box here about......must be ....... 50 years ago! Remember talking to another kid about ...do you think we could build a model of it? Never did, way above my skill level at the time....& probably pushing it now.

Cheers Kerrin
Fortunately no bombing runs!  That Seaview is a fiberglass hull one of the guys in a Canadian group made. There are smaller versions in plastic that Mobius Models makes that many convert for RC. The yellow Flying Sub (FS1) in the pics is also by Mobius, from same TV show.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on May 19, 2019, 02:36:25 PM
Does RC work at all if submerged?  Antenna above the water?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on May 19, 2019, 03:23:22 PM
Great looking subs Chris. Bruce's one in the last pics looks like it has lots of scale detail, I like it.

Like your Orca sub too. 
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 19, 2019, 09:45:48 PM
Does RC work at all if submerged?  Antenna above the water?
The older 75Mhz and below stuff works fine in fresh water. I think the 433mhz (or is it 344?) works okay too. The newer 2.4Ghz sets do not, the signal bounces right off the water. For the lower frequencies, we can get down a good 10 feet, assuming we are in clear enough water to see that far. In pools, it depends what chemistry they are using and how clean it is, the combined salts cut the distance down to about 3 feet in the worst cases. Most of the sub guys have been scrounging the older sets, and scooping them up on ebay since most of the manufacturers have stopped making anything but 2.4Ghz these days. The newer stuff is great for toys since the can have lots sharing the signal space, no need for separate crystals, but they dont like to have the signal swimming...

We had a great time there yesterday, nice to get outside more again!

Funny side story - today I had to go over and replace the old garage door opener at my mothers house. Took down the old one, and saved the cross pin that holds the end of the track to the framing above the door. When putting up the new one, of course I dropped the pin, heard it bounce off the floor right below me and clank on the door. No problem, go down to get it.... Um, where did it go? 5 minutes of searching, flashlight in the corners, nothing....  Finally give up and go to use the newer bracket with a different size cross pin (of course), and spot the old one lying in the pile of nuts and bolts from the new opener, 4 feet in from the door! Must be she has some old shop elves that have gone feral, turned back into hoarding shop gnomes, and one of them started nesting with all the nice shiny hardware!!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Art K on May 20, 2019, 03:39:10 AM
Chris,
Sounds like you had a fun day at the lake. The Seaview and the flying saucer are a blast from the past. By the way I have some old RC airplane stuff that is 72Mhz let me know if you know someone interested. I got it at a garage sale and intended to use it in a boat. I think it has been sitting around 5 years & could use a good home. PM me if you know someone interested.
Art
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 20, 2019, 04:18:01 AM
Chris,
Sounds like you had a fun day at the lake. The Seaview and the flying saucer are a blast from the past. By the way I have some old RC airplane stuff that is 72Mhz let me know if you know someone interested. I got it at a garage sale and intended to use it in a boat. I think it has been sitting around 5 years & could use a good home. PM me if you know someone interested.
Art
Hi Art, the 72 mhz band in the US is now only legal for airplane use, surface craft need to be up on 75 mhz. That change happened some years ago. There are places that will rework them from 72 to 75 for a fee, you cannot change bands with just a crystal change unfortunately. There is still some demand for 72, but its shrinking. If you dont need it anymore, could try putting it up on ebay. Thanks for the offer though!
Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Art K on May 20, 2019, 05:01:34 AM
Chris,
Was just a thought, so... what would have happened had I inappropriately used it for a boat?
Art
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 20, 2019, 01:50:02 PM
Chris,
Was just a thought, so... what would have happened had I inappropriately used it for a boat?
Art
If there was someone nearby with a plane on that channel, a big thump...   :o


Technically its not legal for boats, but in practice no enforcement outside of a formal event where they track channels to make sure of no conflicts.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on May 20, 2019, 04:20:31 PM
What, no Frequency Enforcement Swat Team, with Crystal Gale leading it?  :Lol:

I guess the big thump could happen if the RC plane user was within a kilometre or two of the boat RC user, the range of RC transmitter would not likely be much more than that, would it Chris?  :thinking:  (you know a LOT more about RC than I do, but that's a sub-topic....  :naughty: sorry bad pun without pun alert)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 20, 2019, 04:30:00 PM
What, no Frequency Enforcement Swat Team, with Crystal Gale leading it?  :Lol:

I guess the big thump could happen if the RC plane user was within a kilometre or two of the boat RC user, the range of RC transmitter would not likely be much more than that, would it Chris?  :thinking:  (you know a LOT more about RC than I do, but that's a sub-topic....  :naughty: sorry bad pun without pun alert)
Sub topic.   :facepalm2:   


Better dive deeper into that topic... No pressure...   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 20, 2019, 06:14:32 PM
Back in the shop again today, starting trimming the lower ends of the roof beams to fit into the tops of the wall frames...
(https://i.postimg.cc/RF6LGffy/IMG-5057.jpg)
Just a nibble of the sides and it fits into the C channel. One down, 10 more to go...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on May 20, 2019, 06:59:23 PM
Crueby:

It's a little  late now that you've already got the supplies you need for chemical etching, but did you think about electro-etching using salt water, something like this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAvdEGZTSdQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAvdEGZTSdQ)

I've seen it used on steel and stainless steel before, both for etching a pattern as you did and also for through etching pulse-jet reed valves out of sheet stainless. I wasn't sure if it would work with non-ferrous metals but from the Google hits that I got when searching electro-etching copper - apparently it does.

No nasty chemicals required, just salt water and a little low voltage angry pixie wrangling.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 20, 2019, 07:44:13 PM
Crueby:

It's a little  late now that you've already got the supplies you need for chemical etching, but did you think about electro-etching using salt water, something like this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAvdEGZTSdQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAvdEGZTSdQ)

I've seen it used on steel and stainless steel before, both for etching a pattern as you did and also for through etching pulse-jet reed valves out of sheet stainless. I wasn't sure if it would work with non-ferrous metals but from the Google hits that I got when searching electro-etching copper - apparently it does.

No nasty chemicals required, just salt water and a little low voltage angry pixie wrangling.

Don
Hi Don - I had not seen that technique before. I have extra pieces of the design on the transfer paper sheet, going to give it a try - already have a salt, distilled water, container, power supply, so should be good to go. Will report back later!
Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 20, 2019, 08:13:38 PM
Forgot to post the pic I turned on the PC for...  :facepalm:
More on the wall frames, notching in the bottom end to fit over the flange on the angle iron sill....
(https://i.postimg.cc/02F9rK0j/IMG-5059.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 21, 2019, 12:13:40 AM
Crueby:

It's a little  late now that you've already got the supplies you need for chemical etching, but did you think about electro-etching using salt water, something like this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAvdEGZTSdQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAvdEGZTSdQ)

I've seen it used on steel and stainless steel before, both for etching a pattern as you did and also for through etching pulse-jet reed valves out of sheet stainless. I wasn't sure if it would work with non-ferrous metals but from the Google hits that I got when searching electro-etching copper - apparently it does.

No nasty chemicals required, just salt water and a little low voltage angry pixie wrangling.

Don
Hi Don - I had not seen that technique before. I have extra pieces of the design on the transfer paper sheet, going to give it a try - already have a salt, distilled water, container, power supply, so should be good to go. Will report back later!
Chris
That was a very interseting experiment - I set up just like she did in the video using a brass blank with the same PNP-blue stencil that I used with the acid the other day (this time brass instead of copper, had a piece the right size to use). Rather than a battery like the video, I used an adjustable lab power supply, which let me set power and monitor current as well. With the brass, I think I had to run the voltage higher to get the same speed, just as with the acid it seemed to go slower with the brass than copper. The first try did not do a lot, pretty sure I went too light on the salt, so I started over with a higher concentration of the salt in the distilled water. That went much quicker, though I did have to brush off the surfaces every fifteen minutes to keep the 'dust' from clogging them up and stopping the reaction (evident when the bubbles stopped).
All in all, a very good result with less dangerous materials. Still wind up with a copper solution to dispose of, but at least it would not burn through the table if spilled!
Here is the plate after the etching, took a couple of hours at 4 volts:
(https://i.postimg.cc/2yT1LQ7g/IMG-5060.jpg)
The ridges around the edge are where the tape I wrapped around the back ended. The hole was there to twist on the wire leading to the plus side of the power supply. Another brass plate was used on the negative side, facing it in the container of salt water. The second plate would build up a black coating of the dusty residue, had to wipe that off to keep things going a couple of times. Not sure how much of that was due to using brass vs just copper for both, the extra metals in the brass probably effected things.

Don, Thanks for the tip!!   :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

Have to try it with steel as well sometime - I assume you use the same metals for both sides?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Stuart on May 21, 2019, 07:23:55 AM
Chris

Not to be a wet blanket but take care

When I was at the iron works they had a chemical  they used salt cells to produce chlorine gas , this was then burnt in a hydrogen flame the vapours were condensed into hydrochloric acid

That said please google passing a electric current though a salt solution


You would have been fascinated with the gas engines ( waste gas from the blast furnaces ) to stand at the valve end with a 9 foot stroke

I will try to find some pics
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Stuart on May 21, 2019, 07:30:14 AM
Here you go look at the images I have posted the search


as there is a large number of pics

Search for “staveley gas engines “
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 21, 2019, 01:58:53 PM
Chris

Not to be a wet blanket but take care

When I was at the iron works they had a chemical  they used salt cells to produce chlorine gas , this was then burnt in a hydrogen flame the vapours were condensed into hydrochloric acid

That said please google passing a electric current though a salt solution


You would have been fascinated with the gas engines ( waste gas from the blast furnaces ) to stand at the valve end with a 9 foot stroke

I will try to find some pics
Hi Stuart,  yes, any of the etching methods require good ventilation and care in handling! Nice thingabout better weather moving in is being able to work outside.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Firebird on May 21, 2019, 07:26:35 PM
Hi Chris

I like that  :thinking:

 :popcorn:

Cheers

Rich
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 21, 2019, 07:49:28 PM
Continuing on with the cab framing, cut a pile of the bottom gussets out of thin sheet stock, notched the outside of the frames for them, and soft soldered them in place. These would have been welded to the floor sill on the real machine, but since I want the frames to be removeable (screwed in place) they are just attached to the frames. The will rest on the sill, and help keep the frames from canting to the side.

(https://i.postimg.cc/TYXzvTRL/IMG-5063.jpg)
Started in drilling the ends of the ceiling ribs so they can be screwed to the tops of the wall frames. Using the bending jig as a holder in the mill, cut a slot for a clamp and added a block on the side so they can be inserted consistantly along the edge for aligning the drill in the center.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pdXxbRJY/IMG-5062.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on May 22, 2019, 12:10:26 AM
As always Chris you are making great progress. The jig for drilling the roof arch ribs will save you a pile of trouble getting it all lined up later!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 22, 2019, 03:39:41 PM
Yup, jig worked out well for bending and drilling - will get more use when drilling the holes for the long ceiling beams too.

Got the holes at the top of the wall frames drilled/tapped 1-72,
(https://i.postimg.cc/d1Tm70XF/IMG-5064.jpg)
and have started test assembling them - some minor filing needed on a couple for a good fit.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fyn7YNn9/IMG-5068.jpg)
Next will be drilling the holes in the floor sill to attach the frames to, then start notching/drilling the ceiling beams.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on May 22, 2019, 04:31:43 PM
Hello Chris,

Frames look real good and will look good when installed on the main frame. A "skeleton look" with the Roof and Frames and no side panels would show off all the interior work.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 22, 2019, 04:35:35 PM
Hello Chris,

Frames look real good and will look good when installed on the main frame. A "skeleton look" with the Roof and Frames and no side panels would show off all the interior work.

Have a great day,
Thomas
The panels will have magnets to hold them on, so can display in any combination.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on May 22, 2019, 04:42:00 PM
Hello Chris,

Frames look real good and will look good when installed on the main frame. A "skeleton look" with the Roof and Frames and no side panels would show off all the interior work.

Have a great day,
Thomas
The panels will have magnets to hold them on, so can display in any combination.

Hey again Chris,

Now I remember you stating that earlier, that will be cool.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on May 23, 2019, 01:27:45 AM
Still with you Dog and still impressive work coming from your stable........ :praise2:


 :popcornsmall:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 23, 2019, 01:34:23 AM
Thanks guys!

I have the frame 'hoops' all assembled this morning - no shop time this afternoon, was out to lunch with friends then we got the canoes out for a trip on one of the local creeks. Ready to drill the holes in the floor sill angle stock tomorrow... 

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 23, 2019, 07:32:06 PM
Got the screw holes drilled in the floor sill angle strips, and milled the half-lap in the wall frames that will have door headers in them. Used a 3-2-1 block as a stop to get all the notches in the same place...

(https://i.postimg.cc/7LRqGKNW/IMG-5069.jpg)
Using the ceiling beam bending jig to drill the holes for the lengthwise beams, which will notch over the cross beams. There are six long beams, so am setting up to drill the holes a pair at a time in the cross beams, drilling one then turning the beam around to do the matching one at the other end, then will reset the position for the next pair farther in.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fL0DxY2T/IMG-5070.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on May 23, 2019, 08:34:15 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 23, 2019, 09:41:18 PM
Flashing back to playing with my old Erector set (Meccano in other countries) as a kid - started putting together the frames on the model. The sill plate is screwed down using the existing screws holding the floor plates to the main frames, and the wall/ceiling frames are bolting to that. Doing them one at a time as I get the ceiling frames tapped for the lengthwise beams.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vBxRk9Vg/IMG-5071.jpg)
Going to start looking like a cab pretty quickly!   :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on May 24, 2019, 12:36:20 AM
Take your time and easy on the  :wine1: or you may get hoop-nosis...... :facepalm:

Sorry, I'll get my coat.... :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on May 24, 2019, 01:37:53 AM
Oh hell Dog thats a great start love the frame works. Where will the magnets be place?



 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 24, 2019, 02:16:11 AM
Oh hell Dog thats a great start love the frame works. Where will the magnets be place?



 :cheers:
Don
I have a box full of small thin disc magnets that I want to use with it. Have not decided exactly where they will be, need to get a little farther in and have some panels made to experiment with to see how many it takes on a long panel with the doors on it - probably have a couple locator pins on each panel too. Will need to put on some small steel patches or something to have them attract too, the brass is not too good for that! The ceiling beams are tool steel, so they can work directly. Its exciting to see the framework start up, its like building a house, every wall section changes everything!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 24, 2019, 05:57:18 PM
Wow, this is really changing the appearance of the model, making it look even longer than before. Got the rest of the wall/ceiling hoops up, ready to notch and install the ceiling beams (two set in place in the photos, there will be six of them altogether).
(https://i.postimg.cc/yYLpwv7W/IMG-5072.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/dVDNvr06/IMG-5074.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on May 24, 2019, 06:42:46 PM
Hello Chris,

That is looking really good. :ThumbsUp:

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Admiral_dk on May 24, 2019, 08:06:05 PM
I can only agree - it do change the look dramatically ..... getting the roof and sides on the "skeleton" you're making right now, will even hide that fact that you haven't got to the boiler etc.   :Lol:

Hey who's hogging the popcorn ?     :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 24, 2019, 09:12:52 PM
I can only agree - it do change the look dramatically ..... getting the roof and sides on the "skeleton" you're making right now, will even hide that fact that you haven't got to the boiler etc.   :Lol:

Hey who's hogging the popcorn ?     :cheers:
munch munch.... oops, sorry, it went by here and I grabbed the bowl.... um, sorry for the swarf in it...   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 24, 2019, 09:18:32 PM
This afternoon I marked out the locations of the cross beams on the lengthwise beams for the ceiling, and milled the notches in - fortunately I had a mill that matched the width of the beams so just one pass per notch. The beams were all done at once to make sure they matched - had a clamp across the set so that I could move them together and keep the alignment.

(https://i.postimg.cc/JzXQxL43/IMG-5076.jpg)
And drilled the holes for the screws in each notch...

(https://i.postimg.cc/s2R40Nvk/IMG-5078.jpg)
Here they are screwed in place on the hoops, looking like a cab!
(https://i.postimg.cc/DZvd74Q5/IMG-5080.jpg)
Next will make the door headers and then the front and back walls will be framed in. The back wall is just a few cross bars, the front is just behind the operator and has a doorway on the left side and a tool bin on the right side.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cJMBqB3r/IMG-5081.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on May 24, 2019, 09:40:19 PM
You got the tracks done, or at least mostly done, you've got the business end mostly done, and you've got the cab skeleton mostly done.  Now all you've got to do is fill up that big honkin' hole in the back and you're done-done.

You're gonna have it finished by the end of next week, right?

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 24, 2019, 10:17:17 PM
You got the tracks done, or at least mostly done, you've got the business end mostly done, and you've got the cab skeleton mostly done.  Now all you've got to do is fill up that big honkin' hole in the back and you're done-done.

You're gonna have it finished by the end of next week, right?

Don


With the holiday weekend, give it a week and a half!   O:-)




The tracks are all done, as are three of four engines. High level to do list:


- cab
- steering engine
- boiler and water tanks


Short list, probably a few months left, be close to my original guesstimate of two years.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on May 24, 2019, 10:57:09 PM
Well Chris, I think I know the answer :Doh: ...but have you thought of only partial cladding for the roof & sides of the cabin?.......

Something like a scattered 10% here or there......Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 25, 2019, 12:14:40 AM
Well Chris, I think I know the answer :Doh: ...but have you thought of only partial cladding for the roof & sides of the cabin?.......

Something like a scattered 10% here or there......Derek
Hi Derek,


I have done that on ship models to show the framing and interior, but on this one I think I would prefer to be able to have it clad fully at times, but with the magnets and pins will be able to remove large sections to show the interior, especially towards the viewer with the far side in place. Even fully clad, there are large doors by the machinery space and smaller ones at the back that can be hinged open, sure that helped with heat control in the summer and air flow.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on May 25, 2019, 02:04:25 AM
Wow!:  This is really starting to look like the full size!

I'd say you're nearly done but I believe you still have a boiler to tackle. 

Great work Chris.

PS  :Director: I'd have the Frisco done by now if I wasn't continually side tracked with all this progress    :lolb:  (hey- I'll use any excuse I can).
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 25, 2019, 02:13:23 AM
Wow!:  This is really starting to look like the full size!

I'd say you're nearly done but I believe you still have a boiler to tackle. 

Great work Chris.

PS  :Director: I'd have the Frisco done by now if I wasn't continually side tracked with all this progress    :lolb:  (hey- I'll use any excuse I can).
Thanks Craig! Yup, boiler and the smaller version of the slew/crowd engines for steering the rear tracks. Lotsa fun so far!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Art K on May 25, 2019, 03:51:24 PM
Chris,
Do you have to saw all the lumber for the cab, or is it covered by metal? Looking good!
Art
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 25, 2019, 06:27:38 PM
Chris,
Do you have to saw all the lumber for the cab, or is it covered by metal? Looking good!
Art
Hi Art,


The cab was originally wood sided with a corrugated metal roof. I don't know if the frame was wood or metal when built. At some point the quarry replaced the cab with all metal plate siding and a smooth metal roof. Since I don't know the details of the original, I am making the model to match how it is now. The catalogs I have don't show enough detail either.


Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 26, 2019, 12:16:47 AM
More on the cab frameing - the door headers (half-lapped onto the verticals) and center cross beam are in...
(https://i.postimg.cc/TwHHGn16/IMG-5084.jpg)
Also the rear wall cros beams and diagonals, plus the angle brackets along the ceiling that will hold the top of the back wall. The area between the two cross beams is hinged at the top to allow them to raise up the flap to let them pour in coal onto the rear deck. The whole rear deck was added by the quarry, as manufactured the area was one large fold-out set of panels, which kept the machine shorter for rail travel. The quarry made a larger fixed deck at some point, letting them store more coal inside.
(https://i.postimg.cc/J0DYhtHB/IMG-5086.jpg)
Last on today were the vertical frames for the front wall on either side of the gear train:
(https://i.postimg.cc/FzMWkm0C/IMG-5087.jpg)
Should be ready to make the steering and hoist throttle linkages that hang from the front left ceiling beam and run back to their engines. Then can start making panels for the walls/doors....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Art K on May 26, 2019, 12:42:06 AM
Chris,
Quote
At some point the quarry replaced the cab with all metal plate siding and a smooth metal roof.
Actually I am glad to hear that cause I can see in my minds eye you sawing all these boards 1/16 X 1/4 inch for the board covers. :ROFL:
Art
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 26, 2019, 12:48:46 AM
Chris,
Quote
At some point the quarry replaced the cab with all metal plate siding and a smooth metal roof.
Actually I am glad to hear that cause I can see in my minds eye you sawing all these boards 1/16 X 1/4 inch for the board covers. :ROFL:
Art
Nothing new about that work here - done lots of that for ship models, and the cab for the Lombard! I have a mini MicroMark table saw for that work. I was building in wood long before I got the machinist bug!

(https://i.postimg.cc/vBfsJd1h/ship-7.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/LXj8SPqr/DSC-0155.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/sX7G90C2/100-1034.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/nz79w1ct/IMG-0769.jpg)

 8)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 26, 2019, 12:53:41 AM
Just weighed the Marion model again, now it is at 80.2 pounds, and climbing....  Ran the numbers, and for the scale it is definitely going to outweigh the real one (when scaled), mainly due to the brass/copper contents, plus on the real one the larger castings were hollow while mine are pieced up solid. Looks like it is heading for that 100 pound region when complete. Going to need to build a model crane, and truck/trailer!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 26, 2019, 05:26:35 PM
Perfect sunny day to take the cab out for some paint, so I unbolted it from the floor, and disconnected the A-frame backstay to remove it and take it outside. Like  on the frame/engines, am using the Duplicolor Engine Enamel With Ceramic spray paint - very tough, goes on thin, covers well with a couple light coats, and dries quick.

(https://i.postimg.cc/dDMWN5bD/IMG-5089.jpg)
Couple coats and some dry time, and it is set back on the model ready to bolt back down...
(https://i.postimg.cc/wxtgP7Kd/IMG-5090.jpg)
The cab walls will be red with white Marion lettering like the originals, the roof will be the grey.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on May 26, 2019, 08:31:26 PM
Hey Chris,

Wow, that cage sure looks EXTRA large now. Nice work.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 26, 2019, 10:00:49 PM
Got the cab frame bolted back on the model,

(https://i.postimg.cc/XqR8g3qt/IMG-5091.jpg)
and starting to cut the card stock template for the front wall - will use that to cut the sheet metal to shape. Most likely will be three parts, top section shown, plus two lower parts to get the sides down to the floor, since one piece would be very hard to get into the space around all the machinery.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ryD2gJz9/IMG-5094.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on May 26, 2019, 11:44:43 PM
Hi Chris, the house support structure looks very strong. Great progress!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 27, 2019, 12:18:59 AM
Hi Chris, the house support structure looks very strong. Great progress!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Thanks! I am quite pleased with how rigid the frame is, even off the model, was concerned that it would be too flexible but it is not. Don't want to pick up the model by it,  :o   but it should be fine for general handling. I have a stack of aluminum sheets to use for the walls, and some thin brass for the roof sheets, which will need to be formed to the arc of the roof.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on May 27, 2019, 06:51:48 AM
Chris....going back to October 2017  :happyreader: .....was the roof sheeting flat, or what we call in Australia Custom Corrugated Zinc plated sheeting?

[light & strong and can be rolled in both directions....the original  :old: World Patient was awarded to your Bethlehem Steel Pittsburgh]


Your image could have a distorted horizontal edge, or it also appears as corrugated  :shrug:

[Some of our Gauge 1 builders cut up aluminium cans & roll there own sheeting as this material featured everywhere in OZ]

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gbritnell on May 27, 2019, 11:34:34 AM
Wow, Wow and Double Wow! Chris I don't know what else to say.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 27, 2019, 01:05:02 PM
Chris....going back to October 2017  :happyreader: .....was the roof sheeting flat, or what we call in Australia Custom Corrugated Zinc plated sheeting?

[light & strong and can be rolled in both directions....the original  :old: World Patient was awarded to your Bethlehem Steel Pittsburgh]


Your image could have a distorted horizontal edge, or it also appears as corrugated  :shrug:

[Some of our Gauge 1 builders cut up aluminium cans & roll there own sheeting as this material featured everywhere in OZ]

Derek
Hi Derek,


The original roofing Marion used was the wavy corrugated kind, but the quarry replaced it with flat plate when they changed the walls from wood to metal. The flat roof is what is there now, has the arch in the center but is made from flat plate that is. The picture posted is low resolution, so hard to tell.

This picture shows it better:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Dy86gqH1/DSC-4876.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 27, 2019, 01:22:10 PM
Wow, Wow and Double Wow! Chris I don't know what else to say.
gbritnell
Wow works!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on May 27, 2019, 10:14:30 PM
Dog you just don’t slow down do you and the quality of work is great. That is some more impressive work Chris still with you Dog....... did I say ...........I............like............. :Love:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 28, 2019, 12:06:55 AM
Thanks Don, the cab is really changing the looks quickly. Getting the front and back wall panels shaped from aluminum sheet stock, a carbide tipped blade in the mini table saw is working great. Pics tomorrow...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 28, 2019, 03:56:08 PM
Got the panels for the rear wall cut out and drilled for mounting screws...
(https://i.postimg.cc/gjdj53Hz/IMG-5095.jpg)
The middle panel is hinged along the top - need to make up a handful of hinges for all the doors soon.
Also got a start on the side panels. I was going to add some alignment pins along the top to keep them in place with the magnets, then realized  :wallbang: that the screws holding the tops of the frames together are in the perfect place. So, pulled out the short ones and put longer ones in (they need to be trimmed back) and drilled the top edge of the panel to fit on them. Couple of nuts on those, and a couple screws at the bottom would hold it all on well, and still make it easy to remove as desired for display. May not use the magnets on the side walls - undecided as yet.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MHDH8X9y/IMG-5097.jpg)
One more panel at the back, surrounding the two narrow doors there, then same shapes on the other side still to do...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on May 28, 2019, 04:54:22 PM
Hello Chris,

Looking good and what a change in overall appearance.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 28, 2019, 05:53:31 PM
Cut the panel for the right rear side, also used a sharp punch from the inside (over a wood block) to form some faux rivets down the panels. The screws top and bottom are working out well for attaching the panels, and make it quick to remove one for display of the inside, think I'll go that route rather than the magnets on the walls.
(https://i.postimg.cc/7LTJC3H9/IMG-5102.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 28, 2019, 07:48:26 PM
And have the panels cut for second side, still need to drill a few more screw holes and add the faux rivets to it:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Tw6qqd3Z/IMG-5104.jpg)
Then can start on the hinges and doors...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on May 28, 2019, 08:26:18 PM
Chris--Have you given any thought to a clear lexan roof? Lexan forms very easily and it's almost a sin to totally hide whats going on inside when all your panels are in place.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 28, 2019, 08:55:09 PM
Chris--Have you given any thought to a clear lexan roof? Lexan forms very easily and it's almost a sin to totally hide whats going on inside when all your panels are in place.---Brian
The roof will be removable as well as the walls, even easier since it can just set in place. When on display it will most likely have one wall and most of the roof off.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on May 28, 2019, 10:51:20 PM
The walls and roof are adding a lot of details to this masterpiece Dog. Looking at the pics it could pose as a full size machine with all the added details. Awesome just awesome Chris!...... :praise2:


 :popcornsmall:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 29, 2019, 04:11:51 PM
Thanks Don!

With the wall panels all cut, this morning got started on the fidlly-bits. First took some of the offcuts from the walls and made up the benches for the rear deck and the bin for the front wall - ran a cut halfway through where they needed to bend, and cut the outlines.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vZpGrhp1/IMG-5105.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/6QntYRXM/IMG-5106.jpg)

Then bent up the tabs to form the rest of the box. The end tabs are a narrower so they dont bump into the sides.
(https://i.postimg.cc/LXSR7X42/IMG-5107.jpg)
Then started on the hinges. Need a whole bunch of them, so started with a piece of brass sheet, and ran a saw cut halfway through the face down the center to keep the tubing in place during silver soldering. After cleaning that up, used the table saw to slice off each hinge pair. Then used a fine jewelers hand saw to cut the zig-zag through the center to split the pair apart.

(https://i.postimg.cc/HxtHCgj5/IMG-5108.jpg)
After drilling for the mounting rivets and installing on the panels, a pin through the tube will complete the hinge. One down, 19 to go...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 29, 2019, 06:57:50 PM
Woops - missed a photo - here is one of the plates with the tube soldered on before cutting into the hinges...
(https://i.postimg.cc/7hW6J20w/IMG-5109.jpg)
Made up three of them to get all the hinges out - if longer they would have had a tendancy to bend apart a bit in the center (between the clamps I had on the ends) as the tube and plate heated up, unless they were heated exactly together.
One thing I tried differently this time in silver soldering was the flux. Originally I used Harris White, then switched to Tenacity 5 on the Lombard since it took long heats better. Am running low on that, and could not find a source here in the US, so I looked around and found the Harris Black flux, already mixed to a paste and meant for longer heats like on boilers. So far I like it, no mixing/remixing of the powder like the others, and seems to work about the same. Cleans up nicely with the Sparex pickle. Had not seen it before, wonder if its a newer formula?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on May 29, 2019, 08:47:17 PM
Like your hinge fab method Chris. It beats my "chase the tiny hinge tube fragment with the torch" method by a long way!

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 29, 2019, 09:33:43 PM
Like your hinge fab method Chris. It beats my "chase the tiny hinge tube fragment with the torch" method by a long way!

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
And slip rolls are hard to find that will do diameters this small!




Picked up some different shades of red for the outside of the cab walls. Found a decent barn red looking one in the same engine paint as the rest of the model. The walls are going to be red outside, grey inside and grey roof. Marion lettering under the eaves will be white 1/2" tall dry transfer railroad lettering, close match for the way Marion did it in early 1900s.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 30, 2019, 05:25:53 PM
Between making the center cuts on the rest of the hinges (as shown yesterday), I realized that I had not included the patent number plates when I made up the etched plates for the engines and boiler. The patent plates on each side of the frame are still there on the LeRoy shovel,
(https://i.postimg.cc/vZYXhh8H/DSC-6909.jpg)
But the shop number plates, which show the serial number of each machine, are sadly missing and the numbers are unknown. I did find a photo of the plate on a Model 60 machine in Costa Rica:
(https://i.postimg.cc/3xt1cGWj/Marion-Model-60-in-Costa-Rica-3.jpg)
that shows what they looked like. The outline and remaining bits of the broken edge on the shovel here match this one. I am making up a set of each for the model, but can't decide how to handle the shop number plate. I can make up a number and use that, or maybe take the number and chip most of it off to obscure it like it was vandalized, or maybe break off the bottom section with the number? I don't know what the real number on this machine was, and dont want to document a made up one...   :thinking:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: bobh on May 30, 2019, 06:25:20 PM
How about your initials and the year?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 30, 2019, 06:44:05 PM
How about your initials and the year?
Interesting idea!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on May 30, 2019, 07:30:16 PM
Chris how about “Model by Chris 20**” fill in the year for shop!



 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 30, 2019, 09:14:52 PM
Chris how about “Model by Chris 20**” fill in the year for shop!



 :cheers:
Don
Thats a great idea too!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 30, 2019, 09:15:51 PM
While deciding what to put on the shop number plate, got started etching out the patent number plates. Here is the first one etched and a spritz of paint...
(https://i.postimg.cc/8PLyVVRZ/IMG-5115.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on May 30, 2019, 10:03:44 PM
Hello Chris,

That looks really good and has that "aged" effect.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on May 30, 2019, 10:15:35 PM
Did you use the ferric chloride, or the salt method to etch the plate?

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 31, 2019, 01:33:52 AM
Did you use the ferric chloride, or the salt method to etch the plate?

Don
Using the salt method this time. Gives same results without handling acid, both ways need ventilation. I want to do some nameplates for othe models but with raised background and lower letters, should be same process but just invert the image.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 31, 2019, 01:35:50 AM
Hello Chris,

That looks really good and has that "aged" effect.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Seems to give a rougher background if I use a few more volts, smooth at 1.5, rough at 4 or 5. Looks like a sandcasting this way, I like it.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Art K on May 31, 2019, 03:09:00 AM
Looks great Chris.
Art
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Admiral_dk on May 31, 2019, 11:38:32 AM
Great result Chris  :ThumbsUp:
Is it normal table salt (NaCl) you are using ?

Best wishes

Per
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on May 31, 2019, 02:12:13 PM
Great result Chris  :ThumbsUp:
Is it normal table salt (NaCl) you are using ?

Best wishes

Per
Yes, takes quite a bit, enough so no more will dissolve into the distilled water. As mentioned, good ventilation is required, and a non metallic container. The parts need to be wiped off frequently to remove the goo that builds up from the copper. There are a bunch of youtube vids from jewelry makers about this.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 01, 2019, 11:51:22 PM
Lots of side projects lately, but back in the model shop again today, continuing on the hinges. I got the rest of them cut apart, and made up a jig for drilling the holes. Got out the trusty finger clamp that was used on the track plates, and made a little wood insert with a slot to hold the hinge and a top to clamp it down:
(https://i.postimg.cc/RFsDvdrC/IMG-5116.jpg)
With this setup I can drill all the holes without worrying about the drill catching and lifting the thin part out of the vise, and it gets all the holes in the same relative places:
(https://i.postimg.cc/2y1XyWmQ/IMG-5117.jpg)
Just have to go through the halves for the other 16 hinges and can start drilling holes in the doors...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 02, 2019, 04:15:44 PM
Rest of the holes in the hinges drilled this morning, then took them to the belt sander to taper the sides down to shape...
(https://i.postimg.cc/tJ7dzjH0/IMG-5119.jpg)
Time to run in some hinge pins, and get the holes in the doors/walls drilled...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 02, 2019, 06:54:43 PM
Started attaching hinges to door, using same drill jig, but this time just clamping on top of the wood block, and using the corner of the vise and the column as alignment stops for the holes.
(https://i.postimg.cc/KY9L98r9/IMG-5124.jpg)
First set in place:
(https://i.postimg.cc/0QbSh1V9/IMG-5125.jpg)
The distance between holes is the same on all of them, so quick to drill for each pair of screws. I'll mark the positions of the other half of the hinges to drill into the wall panels.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on June 02, 2019, 09:02:45 PM
Great looking hinges Chris! Door drilling well underway too.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 02, 2019, 09:05:22 PM
Great looking hinges Chris! Door drilling well underway too.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:


Thanks! Just got last hinge on the last door, going to give the fingers a break from all that tapping before starting the wall ends of the hinges.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 02, 2019, 11:20:01 PM
First doors hung on the walls...
(https://i.postimg.cc/wMCggZDK/IMG-5126.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/gcQYVXQM/IMG-5128.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on June 03, 2019, 12:14:09 AM
Hello Chris,

Both doors open does show quite a bit of the insides and that looks good.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on June 03, 2019, 12:21:42 AM
Dog that all looks good! But hey bud how about some frame work around those doors, just saying. Hinges look great!

 :popcorn:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 03, 2019, 02:30:07 AM
Dog that all looks good! But hey bud how about some frame work around those doors, just saying. Hinges look great!

 :popcorn:
Don
The  real shovel has nothing around the doors on the outside, just the same plate steel for wall and door. The quarry went for cheap and functional when they replaced the wood cab. The original wood definitely looked better, but I am modeling it as it exists now and as it finished its working service. The only change will be to use the original colors and lettering, since the historical society has expressed interest in the same if they can get money for restoration. On display, when the walls are on anyway, i will leave the doors open, which helps the appearance.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 03, 2019, 07:10:47 PM
Rest of the door panels are in place, think all the walls are ready for paint. Way too windy out for spaying paint, so maybe tonight or tomorrow...  Good time to take a book out on the front porch to nap, um, read in the rocker...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 04, 2019, 12:32:50 AM
Got paint on the wall panels this evening, looking VERY different after being used to the raw aluminum panels for so long. They are handle-able, but need time to cure up solid before I do much more with them. The main wall panels are hung on the frame to dry, take up too much table space otherwise.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mkYFNMYK/IMG-5130.jpg)

The front wall will be screwed in place and left in, the side and rear walls wont be for now since there is still a lot of internal work to do. I did find that I need to make one more set of hinges, for the rear wall center panel.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on June 04, 2019, 12:55:57 AM
That red really sets it off Dog great color pick!....... :ThumbsUp:



 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on June 04, 2019, 02:11:09 AM
I like the red! really pops!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Great work Chris.

When operating it in public eventually don't be surprised if firemen and dalmatian dogs want to hang around it though - You may need to physically restrain the firemen from compulsively polishing any copper or brass they see, to a mirror finish!  :Lol:  (I descend from three generations of firemen and fire engineers - no dull brass is safe with those guys)  :ShakeHead:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 04, 2019, 02:12:44 AM
I like the red! really pops!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Great work Chris.

When operating it in public eventually don't be surprised if firemen and dalmatian dogs want to hang around it though - You may need to physically restrain the firemen from compulsively polishing any copper or brass they see, to a mirror finish!  :Lol:  (I descend from three generations of firemen and fire engineers - no dull brass is safe with those guys)  :ShakeHead:
Letting my elves eagle reply...

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 04, 2019, 07:39:31 PM
Paint has set up enough to install the cab front wall. Here are a few views of it:
Right side from back:
(https://i.postimg.cc/6QfqJQvN/IMG-5132.jpg)
from front:
(https://i.postimg.cc/hjCGv3sy/IMG-5133.jpg)
and from left side:
(https://i.postimg.cc/sXfXVRYG/IMG-5134.jpg)
And no, not a mistake, there is only a door through that bulkhead from the operator control deck, the other side is solid on the real one. The cutouts at the top are for steam pipes and control rods, that panel is not meant to be weather-tight like in a house, real one has the gaps too.
Next up is to make the panels for the roof. I had picked up a sheet of brass a while back for it, but I also have a big chunk of 0.022" roofing copper (like for making valleys and gutters) that would work as well. The ali sheet I have is thicker, and would be hard to curve into shape, so I am leaning to the brass or copper. Or may use some of the thin model-airplane plywood that I have a stack of... Though that would not keep a curve by itself. The brass or copper would be cut into overlapping panels, curved to shape, and riveted along the overlapping seams which would stiffen it more. Time to make some cardstock templates!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on June 04, 2019, 11:38:35 PM
Chris ,more good work going on there ..will there be louvres in the side panels ??

Willy
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 05, 2019, 12:17:18 AM
Chris ,more good work going on there ..will there be louvres in the side panels ??

Willy
No, they just left the doors open in warm weather, though some hot rod louvers and headers would look good! There is a vent in the roof over the steam dome, looks like a quonset hut.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on June 05, 2019, 01:34:37 AM
I like the red! really pops!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Great work Chris.

When operating it in public eventually don't be surprised if firemen and dalmatian dogs want to hang around it though - You may need to physically restrain the firemen from compulsively polishing any copper or brass they see, to a mirror finish!  :Lol:  (I descend from three generations of firemen and fire engineers - no dull brass is safe with those guys)  :ShakeHead:

I think that is one of the reasons Chris paints so many brass parts, If the Elves went on a polishing jag it would bankrupt Chris in Basso costs, They can't help it, it comes from all that toy making early in there lives.
Gerald.
PS Just watch out for the odd one who turns to weathering, I have had to ban mine from watching Adam Savage and any prop making videos.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 05, 2019, 01:58:17 AM
I like the red! really pops!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Great work Chris.

When operating it in public eventually don't be surprised if firemen and dalmatian dogs want to hang around it though - You may need to physically restrain the firemen from compulsively polishing any copper or brass they see, to a mirror finish!  :Lol:  (I descend from three generations of firemen and fire engineers - no dull brass is safe with those guys)  :ShakeHead:

I think that is one of the reasons Chris paints so many brass parts, If the Elves went on a polishing jag it would bankrupt Chris in Basso costs, They can't help it, it comes from all that toy making early in there lives.
Gerald.
PS Just watch out for the odd one who turns to weathering, I have had to ban mine from watching Adam Savage and any prop making videos.
If they watched Adam Savage your bigger worry would be C4 and flamethrowers!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gary.a.ayres on June 05, 2019, 12:23:48 PM
Really taking shape now. Looking great.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 05, 2019, 01:49:46 PM
Thanks Gary!
After realizing that I miscounted and came up two hinges short, for the rear wall coal flap, cut two more strips, notched the top for the tube, and silver soldered them up.
(https://i.postimg.cc/VstP46nD/IMG-5140.jpg)
and installed/painted on the panels...
(https://i.postimg.cc/X70SPbg3/IMG-5141.jpg)
Today will start cutting out the panels for the roof...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on June 05, 2019, 02:50:54 PM
Hello Chris,

Boy that red paint sure looks good and gives a great contrast to the other parts. That thing is getting bigger and BIGGER :ThumbsUp:

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: fumopuc on June 05, 2019, 08:53:03 PM
Hi Chris, I am  still following along. You are presenting a great show.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 05, 2019, 10:09:29 PM
Thanks guys!

And we can let the copper-top battery jokes commence! Here are the panels for the roof cut and bent into shape from a large sheet of .022 roofing copper that I have left over from another project. The panels were bent around a large roll of tape to get the initial shape, then tweaked slightly by hand to fit the roof:
(https://i.postimg.cc/hG6dkdq3/IMG-5142.jpg)
The number of panels and the overlaps are the same pattern as on the original machine. The overlaps will be drilled for small rivets, which will further stiffen the shape. There will be a notch for the A-frame backstay to go through, and the panels there will be separate to allow removal around the backstay. There will also need to be a little cupola above the steam dome on the boiler, and a hole for the smokestack.

I did some experimenting with the magnets and scrap sheet metal, and I have a box of little disc ones that work great to hold them on - side bonus is that they self-center on the steel cross-beams, and I can put them on opposite sides of the beams to keep the panels from sliding to the side. Gel superglue appears to stick them on quite well. That should work well to hold the roof on but leave it easily removeable for access and display.
Another neat view - looking in where the coal loading panel is on the back:
(https://i.postimg.cc/hjmdctD4/IMG-5147.jpg)
The shiney thing in the center is the plastic air hose I've been using to hook up the compressor. That opening in the floor is where the firebox on the boiler goes, boiler runs away from the camera from there.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on June 06, 2019, 12:10:00 AM
Wow! Damn Dog that looks awesome love the copper look pity is doesn’t stay that way. The interior shot looks like the real McCoy just down right awesome......... :praise2:



 :popcornsmall:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gary.a.ayres on June 06, 2019, 12:23:08 PM
That last photo looks like it must have been inside the real thing.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 06, 2019, 07:41:18 PM
Just put a post over on my Lombard Hauler thread about the weathervane I made for the museum up in Maine...

Chris
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 06, 2019, 09:37:03 PM
Another bit of wood as a drilling support for the roof panel rivets:
(https://i.postimg.cc/rFs7xnVX/IMG-5149.jpg)
and the first two panels are joined up:
(https://i.postimg.cc/L4NrqKM3/IMG-5148.jpg)
Not bad so far, but it will get awkward to handle the parts the more panels go together - think I may do them in pairs then join up the pairs. I am starting in the center, getting the first couple rivets in, then moving out to the edges so that there is no risk of a bubble forming between rivets like there could if I put a rivet in each edge and moved to the center.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on June 07, 2019, 05:42:37 AM
 :popcorn: :popcorn: :Love: :ThumbsUp:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Zephyrin on June 07, 2019, 08:00:32 AM
Awesome model, and realistic picture, looks like you are building the real thing !
May I suggest to drill the copper sheets for the rivets once assembled, ( maybe a drop of tin solder or superglue to help) because the spacing of the holes is slightly different between the lower and upper plate, and the insertion of the rivets would be easier IMO.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 07, 2019, 01:03:14 PM
Awesome model, and realistic picture, looks like you are building the real thing !
May I suggest to drill the copper sheets for the rivets once assembled, ( maybe a drop of tin solder or superglue to help) because the spacing of the holes is slightly different between the lower and upper plate, and the insertion of the rivets would be easier IMO.
The way I did the first seam was to rivet the first two in the center of the arch, then alternated sides working out from there, drilling and riveting one at a time, which drew the two sheets tight as they went in. I thought about soldering first, but it would be hard to hold the sheets together along the curve.  This is working well so far.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 07, 2019, 02:44:32 PM
This should show the sequence I am using better, made up the second pair of panels this morning. These two have openings for the cupola vent, which sits above the steam dome with the safety valve and whistle, and an opening for the smokestack. The openings were cut with aircraft style snips, will sand/file the edges smooth. After cutting the openings, the panels were clamped together with some small parallel clamps at the outer edges, checking that the panels lay flat on the roof beams.

(https://i.postimg.cc/L51Vgrc9/IMG-5151.jpg)
Then started riveting operations - first drilled for the first ones at the center (in this case next to the center openings)
(https://i.postimg.cc/bY7gfwns/IMG-5152.jpg)
Only drilling/riveting one set at a time when they are together, since as Zephyrin pointed out the panels are at different radiuses and the spacing will vary between the holes in each panel. So after drilling one hole, run in the rivet...
(https://i.postimg.cc/y8PyRhbZ/IMG-5153.jpg)
and drill the next one, doing one rivet per side, alternating back and forth. Drill, Rivet, Repeat...

(https://i.postimg.cc/yY0P1Chn/IMG-5154.jpg)
Here is a view from the end, you can see how the rivets draw the metal together. This would have been tough to solder first before riveting.
(https://i.postimg.cc/VNkBWSxH/IMG-5155.jpg)
And when all the rivets are in, you can see how the inner panel extends out a little farther, since it is closer in on the circles of the stack. This will be sanded off flush later.
(https://i.postimg.cc/447P09mD/IMG-5156.jpg)
That gets one more pair connected up:
(https://i.postimg.cc/T3GchNCx/IMG-5157.jpg)
I will do all the pairs, then come back and join the pairs together into long panels. The section at the front of the backstay from the A-frame will be kept separate, with dummy rivets, to allow the roof to be removed without disconnecting the backstay. Coming out well - I will never be hired by Rolls Royce to do automobile panels but am happy with the results so far.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Firebird on June 07, 2019, 11:30:22 PM
Hi Chris

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Riveting is an art, one I cannot seem to master. I think you need 3 hands and a lot of patience

Cheers

Rich
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 08, 2019, 12:15:19 AM
Hi Chris

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Riveting is an art, one I cannot seem to master. I think you need 3 hands and a lot of patience

Cheers

Rich
I learned it at a much larger scale, building full size lapstrake boats, which have the odd thousand each. Lotsa practice!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Zephyrin on June 08, 2019, 08:14:22 AM
wow, lot of skills in this thread, thanks to share !
beautiful results.
why copper and not a cheaper metal ?
copper is not that easy to drill.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 08, 2019, 12:34:46 PM
wow, lot of skills in this thread, thanks to share !
beautiful results.
why copper and not a cheaper metal ?
copper is not that easy to drill.
I was going to use something else, but I happened to have a partial sheet of roofing copper left over in the pile, so for this project it was free. I recall it was purchased from a roofing supplier at a muh lower price than the usual metal suppliers, they may have had it since prices were lower.
Drilling this has gone well, its a very small hole, nbr 60 drill, which may be helping. You are right, copper can be very grabby on cutters!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on June 08, 2019, 11:06:29 PM
I took my 8 year old grandson to a "Antique heavy equipment show" today, about a mile from my house at the Simcoe Museum. There were  lots of hit and miss engines, bulldozers graders and a few model a Fords. Brennen got to ride around in a two door model A, and thought that was cool. In the gravel pit they had a steamshovel working, picking up loads of sand, swinging around, and making a new pile. Brennen and I were both pretty impressed by that. I told Bren that I know a guy "on the computer" who was making a model of a steam shovel. Brennen likes my models, but until a kid sees the "real thing" in full size, working, they don't really understand model engines. After the show we came back to my house, and Brennen could pick out flywheels and water reservoirs and crankshafts. I'm not sure who had the best day, Brennen or me!! :pinkelephant: :pinkelephant:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 08, 2019, 11:11:14 PM
Just a little shop time today, got the last of the panels riveted together that will be. The very front panel will just have faux rivets, since that one needs to be separate so the rest can come off while leaving the backstay in place.

(https://i.postimg.cc/cHbSgqf5/IMG-5162.jpg)
The rest of the day our RC submarine group was down at a campground in the Southern Tier area of NY state, doing a show for them at their pond. Good turnout from the Rochester and Buffalo clubs, weather was ideal. Here are a couple of shots:
Several of the boats and subs, including my killer whale:
(https://i.postimg.cc/brSj16TY/IMG-1928.jpg)
One of the Buffalo guys has a Swan decoy that he converted to radio control:
(https://i.postimg.cc/tTTb4Rnx/IMG-1924.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 08, 2019, 11:14:45 PM
I took my 8 year old grandson to a "Antique heavy equipment show" today, about a mile from my house at the Simcoe Museum. There were  lots of hit and miss engines, bulldozers graders and a few model a Fords. Brennen got to ride around in a two door model A, and thought that was cool. In the gravel pit they had a steamshovel working, picking up loads of sand, swinging around, and making a new pile. Brennen and I were both pretty impressed by that. I told Bren that I know a guy "on the computer" who was making a model of a steam shovel. Brennen likes my models, but until a kid sees the "real thing" in full size, working, they don't really understand model engines. After the show we came back to my house, and Brennen could pick out flywheels and water reservoirs and crankshafts. I'm not sure who had the best day, Brennen or me!! :pinkelephant: :pinkelephant:
Nice!!
I was hoping to make it to that show today, but as you can see in my previous post our club had a show today. Maybe the next time they do a show I'll make it up there. There is a show near here in August (the Canandaigua Pageant Of Steam) which usually has a few pieces of construction equipment moving piles around, along with a lot of traction engines and tons of gas tractors and hit-miss engines. The director of the LeRoy historical society (which allowed me access to the Marion shovel for pictures/measurements) was up there this weekend for a museum conference.
Did you get any photos of the show?
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on June 08, 2019, 11:24:14 PM
No, I didn't bother with pictures. After your tenth "Antique Engine XXX show", all of the stuff begins to look the same. Today was more of a "Bonding with Grampa" day. Nobody else in the entire family is interested in this mechanical stuff, but Bren shows promise. It was a good show, as far as that kind of thing goes. The granddaddy of all steam shows happens on the long weekend in August in Cookstown, about fifteen miles south of here.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 09, 2019, 12:28:07 AM
No, I didn't bother with pictures. After your tenth "Antique Engine XXX show", all of the stuff begins to look the same. Today was more of a "Bonding with Grampa" day. Nobody else in the entire family is interested in this mechanical stuff, but Bren shows promise. It was a good show, as far as that kind of thing goes. The granddaddy of all steam shows happens on the long weekend in August in Cookstown, about fifteen miles south of here.
Whats the name of the show there?


EDIT: think I found it, it is first weekend in August. Wish I could make it there, but I will be at the Finger Lakes Liver Steamers 50th anniversary event that weekend, should be showing the Lombard model there by invite from the Live Steam editor. Here is the link to the show in Cookstown:
https://www.steamshow.ca/
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 09, 2019, 12:51:11 AM
The owners of the campground posted a bunch of pictures from the submarine/boat run today, here is a album with copies of them for any who are interested:
https://postimg.cc/gallery/1i7mhpcxw/

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on June 09, 2019, 12:55:03 AM
Here's a link. I'm going to miss it this year. I have eye surgery scheduled for the 15 and 29 of July. Got Cadillacs on my eyes.
https://www.steamshow.ca/events.htm
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 09, 2019, 12:55:42 AM
Here's a link.
https://www.steamshow.ca/events.htm (https://www.steamshow.ca/events.htm)
Thanks Brian!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on June 09, 2019, 01:46:34 AM
The owners of the campground posted a bunch of pictures from the submarine/boat run today, here is a album with copies of them for any who are interested:
https://postimg.cc/gallery/1i7mhpcxw/


Hello Chris,

Boy that black hull Motor Sailer is gorgeous. Looks like a big turnout.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on June 09, 2019, 01:48:49 AM
I like the red! really pops!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Great work Chris.

When operating it in public eventually don't be surprised if firemen and dalmatian dogs want to hang around it though - You may need to physically restrain the firemen from compulsively polishing any copper or brass they see, to a mirror finish!  :Lol:  (I descend from three generations of firemen and fire engineers - no dull brass is safe with those guys)  :ShakeHead:

I think that is one of the reasons Chris paints so many brass parts, If the Elves went on a polishing jag it would bankrupt Chris in Basso costs, They can't help it, it comes from all that toy making early in there lives.
Gerald.
PS Just watch out for the odd one who turns to weathering, I have had to ban mine from watching Adam Savage and any prop making videos.
If they watched Adam Savage your bigger worry would be C4 and flamethrowers!!

C4 I keep locked up off premises, Flamethrowers come under  burner development and by my wife's demands must be done out side (No one argues with her).

Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 09, 2019, 08:46:53 PM
Couple more short sessions in the shop today between time outside now that summer finally made it here. Got the faux rivets on the front roof panel (actually real rivets, but they only go through the one panel, the panel under it at the front of the main roof is free to move so it can come around the backstay).
(https://i.postimg.cc/dVPmZWsn/IMG-5167.jpg)
Also made the little cupola that comes out of the roof to give ventilation for the steam dome/safety valve/whistle assembly. It is bent out of a small piece of copper, with tabs to lock it onto the opening in the roof. The tabs are short at one end to allow it to be slipped in at one end extra far, dropping in the other end, then sliding back to final position (it comes in from underneath, which keeps from having to overbend the cupola arch). You can also see some of the magnets glued to the panels on the inside, which hold the roof in place against the steel roof crossbeams. They are placed on the sides of where the lengthwise beams are, which keeps the roof from slipping to the side. Held in place with some gel superglue, also put a layer over the top/sides to keep them from popping off if the roof is flexed.

(https://i.postimg.cc/BQ1B6W0X/IMG-5164.jpg)
Here it is from the top:
(https://i.postimg.cc/9QdPdGz2/IMG-5166.jpg)
A few rivets along the tab will lock it all into place and draw up the edges. Then I think all that is left on the roof is to trim the edges of the panels and start painting. The roof will be painted grey to match the insides of the walls.
Close to being done on the cab - after the roof I need to make the hoist and steering engine throttle linkages up to the operators station. The control levers were made when the lower levers were, so just need to make the pivots and control rods. After that, all that is left is the boiler and the steering engine. I think I will do the boiler first - have some copper tube coming for that, should be here tomorrow. Still have the thick copper sheet for the endcaps and plenty of bronze rod, as well as some safety valves and sight glass fittings.

The end of the build is in sight - still small in the distance, but in sight!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on June 10, 2019, 04:45:46 AM
Chris......polished brass or copper tubes to the engines & valving inside of the cabin may be on the plan set, but are you going to let the copper roof sheeting panels age naturally & discolor :embarassed: to that tarnished green tinge ?.....

That aged patina would be very attractive  :P ....& a liberal smear with Bakers Soldering Flux would speed up the process

Derek  :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on June 10, 2019, 10:07:30 AM
Hi Chris,
 Have the elves gone on strike? I’ve been away for 2 weeks and ONLY 7 pages to catch up on, what’s going on!  :lolb: :lolb:
Right back to reading the 7 pages to find out what’s been going on! Now we’re the  :popcorn:?

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on June 10, 2019, 12:05:14 PM
Tell you a little known fact about copper roofing. The parliament buildings in Ottawa, Canada all have beautiful green copper roofs. When the copper roofing was first installed many years ago, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police were asked to save all of the horse piss from their stables. The horse piss was carried to the top of the roofs and poured over them to give the lovely green colour. When left to itself, copper takes a long, long time to reach that green colour on its own. Some chemical agent in horse pee makes it turn green almost immediately.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 10, 2019, 02:24:05 PM
Chris......polished brass or copper tubes to the engines & valving inside of the cabin may be on the plan set, but are you going to let the copper roof sheeting panels age naturally & discolor :embarassed: to that tarnished green tinge ?.....

That aged patina would be very attractive  :P ....& a liberal smear with Bakers Soldering Flux would speed up the process

Derek  :wine1:
Sorry Derek, I am going for the look of the original machine, boring as that may be!
Yesterday the roof panels were painted grey, here is how they look back on the model:
(https://i.postimg.cc/kXLf2mwz/IMG-5169.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 10, 2019, 02:27:25 PM
Hi Chris,
 Have the elves gone on strike? I’ve been away for 2 weeks and ONLY 7 pages to catch up on, what’s going on!  :lolb: :lolb:
Right back to reading the 7 pages to find out what’s been going on! Now we’re the  :popcorn: ?

Cheers Kerrin
Welcome back Kerrin! At least you wont be bored back at home again...  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 10, 2019, 02:30:26 PM
Tell you a little known fact about copper roofing. The parliament buildings in Ottawa, Canada all have beautiful green copper roofs. When the copper roofing was first installed many years ago, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police were asked to save all of the horse piss from their stables. The horse piss was carried to the top of the roofs and poured over them to give the lovely green colour. When left to itself, copper takes a long, long time to reach that green colour on its own. Some chemical agent in horse pee makes it turn green almost immediately.
Sure that wasn't a scheme by the builders to say they could pee on the cops?   :o   Guess this way was easier than getting the horses to go up the ladders and doing it directly. Glad I was not the one who had to reach under the horse with the bucket!

I knew it was collected and used early on for other uses like leather tanning, didn't know about the patina use.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Stuart on June 10, 2019, 02:48:09 PM
Chris

Just google saltpetre men , they used to collect human urine long ago to get the ingredient for gun powder


Model looks great ,it give a good idea of its finished size now

Stuart
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on June 10, 2019, 02:52:19 PM
It's looking great Chris! Like the roof work!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on June 10, 2019, 03:19:17 PM
Looks great Dog reminds me of the dredges I use to work on and repair. They were all DC motors and generators though not steam. Keep it coming Chris awesome results...... :praise2:


 :popcornsmall:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 10, 2019, 04:04:07 PM
Looks great Dog reminds me of the dredges I use to work on and repair. They were all DC motors and generators though not steam. Keep it coming Chris awesome results...... :praise2:


 :popcornsmall:
Don
I was surprised to see how far back the electric versions went, they made them alongside the steam ones for use in places where electricity was readily available, and in mines/tunnels where coal boilers were not practical. There were also ones where they ran compressed air lines in from an external compressor to run the steam engines, for use in tunnels. The same machinery was mounted on barges to make dredges too, great variety from the same machines.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 10, 2019, 04:04:31 PM
It's looking great Chris! Like the roof work!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
:cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 10, 2019, 10:19:42 PM
Got the exhaust piping for the crowd engine made and test fit (needs paint before final install):
(https://i.postimg.cc/CMHGHm9K/IMG-5170.jpg)
It runs down to the bottom of the boom and out to the end - assume they did it this way to keep the steam plume from blocking the operators view of the working area.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3J8gL2HF/IMG-5171.jpg)
In the background behind the hoist bucket chain you can see a large copper tube - this is the blank for the boiler tube that arrived today. The flue tube was also supposed to be here, but those swarf-brains at Online Metals gnomed up my order, and that piece wont even ship till at least Wednesday.  They didnt even tell me till I contacted them wondering where the other piece was... Charged full amount on card already even when they dont have it in stock and are waiting on a backorder they didn't tell me about... :cussing:   

Fortunately I have other things to make in the meantime, like the control links for the hoist and steering throttles.
 :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on June 10, 2019, 10:33:23 PM
I hate ordering stuff these days... seems there are frequently issues like the backorder thing, split orders with extra ship costs, etc. Hope your flue tube and other supplies for the boiler get there in reasonable time. Meanwhile you could visit the bank to arrange the second mortgage for buying the 4 feet of silver solder for the boiler..... :mischief: (If you fund your projects like I do) :Lol:

That big copper tube behind the shovel is yelling "BOILER TIME" !  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 10, 2019, 10:57:29 PM
I hate ordering stuff these days... seems there are frequently issues like the backorder thing, split orders with extra ship costs, etc. Hope your flue tube and other supplies for the boiler get there in reasonable time. Meanwhile you could visit the bank to arrange the second mortgage for buying the 4 feet of silver solder for the boiler..... :mischief: (If you fund your projects like I do) :Lol:

That big copper tube behind the shovel is yelling "BOILER TIME" !  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
I dont mind backordered items, but only if I know about it up front. Waiting a full week to tell me, AFTER I have to contact them to find out where the rest of the parts are, and not replying to initial emails, is not good business. They were better before they got bought by a bigger company.
The silver solder can be pricey, just looked at what the thin wire is going for, about $32 per troy ounce, but that is about 21 feet of wire, so that lasts a while. Not bad considering what this model is costing overall (dont know, have not added it up, dont WANT to know! )
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on June 10, 2019, 11:14:20 PM
Hello Chris,

Sure looking good and I like how the Cab has turned out.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: rspringer on June 11, 2019, 12:27:12 AM
Silver solder is cheap compared to what copper is going for.  How big is the boiler going to be?  Side note I got the tube for the Lombard and plates.  Tube is 6 inches and firebox is going to be 1/4 in plate. Steel would have to get a mortgage for one in copper.   Have not decided on flues yet.  Good news I am up to 50 lb weight limit.  I am only about 3 weeks behind in following the build. Keep up the good work.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 11, 2019, 01:21:07 AM
Silver solder is cheap compared to what copper is going for.  How big is the boiler going to be?  Side note I got the tube for the Lombard and plates.  Tube is 6 inches and firebox is going to be 1/4 in plate. Steel would have to get a mortgage for one in copper.   Have not decided on flues yet.  Good news I am up to 50 lb weight limit.  I am only about 3 weeks behind in following the build. Keep up the good work.
Hi Rod, glad you are doing better! Love to see some pics of your parts so far.


For the Marion, the boiler main tube is 10.5" x 3.5 diameter, length includes the smokebox. Pure scale diameter is 3.7, so will make it up in insulation. It will be butane fired, trying a different larger burner than the Lombard had. The copper for the boiler parts is over $125, definitely more than the solder!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Art K on June 11, 2019, 02:50:01 AM
Well, at least no horses were abused by having to drink green beer on St Patrick's day to turn all the copper roofs green.  :ROFL: :cheers: On a more serious note my boss ordered several tubes of SS only to have it not arrive before we were starting to run out of stuff, after a call it was determined that one size was on back order so they held everything. :headscratch:
Art
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 11, 2019, 04:07:55 PM
Well, at least no horses were abused by having to drink green beer on St Patrick's day to turn all the copper roofs green.  :ROFL: :cheers: On a more serious note my boss ordered several tubes of SS only to have it not arrive before we were starting to run out of stuff, after a call it was determined that one size was on back order so they held everything. :headscratch:
Art
Green... beer... horses...   :lolb:    :ROFL:   
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 11, 2019, 04:17:16 PM
Few more bits done - got the exhaust piping for the crowd engine painted and installed:
(https://i.postimg.cc/BQbwGVz7/IMG-5175.jpg)
a little piece of sheet stock wrapped around the pipe and drilled to hold it to the top:
(https://i.postimg.cc/MHPPQ7nY/IMG-5174.jpg)
Also got the throttle linkages installed and working - the one for the steering engine is not soldered into the clevis, waiting till the linkages at the back of the cab are in.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8PYXkbQp/IMG-5178.jpg)
I do have the main shell tube for the boiler (still waiting on the firetube tube as mentioned yesterday  :shrug: ) so I got that cut to length (10.5" long, 3.5" OD). I figured it would have to go in through the back wall, but turns out that it fits through the gap between the studs on the sidewall - had wondered why that spacing was so wide, maybe Marion did it the same way. Here it is in the position it will be in when complete. The firebox holds up the back end, and there will be a support bracket at the front end that rests on the steel crossbar visible at the right hand end in the photo.

(https://i.postimg.cc/tR2mwjBV/IMG-5177.jpg)
I can get started on the forming blocks for the end caps - am using some .100" sheet copper left over from the Lombard boiler (think the sheet was used on the Shay as well). The forming blocks will be turned out of some Sapele wood that I have left over from some furniture projects (the big cabinet in the background of most of the model pics is made of it). Nice dense wood with enough interlocking fibers so it wont split easily.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 12, 2019, 12:43:18 AM
And yes - Boiler Time as CNR called it!
After getting the main shell tube cut to length, next up was to make the forming blocks to bend up the two endcaps, which will be made from .100" copper sheet cut into discs, annealed, and formed into shape (which includes rounds of hammering and annealing over and over). Rough cut the forms, screwed them to the faceplate and turned to size with a radius on the corner to give the metal an easier bend:
(https://i.postimg.cc/QdLmM2rf/IMG-5180.jpg)
Two blocks needed, so the sheet can be clamped between them to keep the center from bowing up while tapping on the edges. One will be glued to a plywood board to hold it down on the workbench.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on June 12, 2019, 01:21:40 AM
Ok Dog go for it!..... :popcornsmall:



 :drinking-41:
Don



Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 12, 2019, 01:29:26 AM
Ok Dog go for it!..... :popcornsmall:



 :drinking-41:
Don


Vroom!  Off I go!    :cheers:




For the record, this method of doing the boiler was learned from Kozo's New Shay book, all thicknesses are from his tables, going up to next available size. Worked great on my other models, not messing with success...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on June 12, 2019, 01:45:19 AM
What's that brown stuff?  :Lol:

Former's looking good. Hope you've been working on getting the hammer arm in shape at the gym all winter Chris !   :mischief:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 12, 2019, 02:00:59 AM
What's that brown stuff?  :Lol:

Former's looking good. Hope you've been working on getting the hammer arm in shape at the gym all winter Chris !   :mischief:
That brown stuff is the new organic aluminum foam they invented called Wud...   ;D


 :Jester:




Nice thing about forming copper is that it takes so little force to bend when annealed, using a plastic head hammer. I'll spend as much time annealing it  between bends as doing the bending, usually takes about 8 cycles.


I took a class in copper raising a couple of years ago, in that we used planishing hammers and polished metal stakes to do the shaping on a bowl, that style was a lot more work but gave a great organic shape. A local welding shop has a classroom building where they teach metal forming, blacksmithing, welding, glass working, all sorts of handy things.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on June 12, 2019, 09:46:54 AM
Hi Chris,
 Right caught up. Have to say only 7 pages in 2 weeks, but the elves have been busy! Looking really great! Like the red  colour for the body. Would of been interesting to see how you would have done the corrugated shell, think that might of added a day to the build!
At this rate you will be onto the Stanley before Xmas.

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 12, 2019, 11:52:50 AM
Hi Chris,
 Right caught up. Have to say only 7 pages in 2 weeks, but the elves have been busy! Looking really great! Like the red  colour for the body. Would of been interesting to see how you would have done the corrugated shell, think that might of added a day to the build!
At this rate you will be onto the Stanley before Xmas.

Cheers Kerrin
I don't know how I would go about making the corrugated version of the roof. If the sheet was corrugated first, bending the arch in would have been difficult. Special slip roll setup maybe? Good thing the quarry put in the flat sheet roof!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 12, 2019, 04:02:19 PM
Excellent weather today, so I set up the torch and workbench outside and started bending the end caps to shape using the wood forms I made last time. Started out by annealing the blanks and sandwiching the copper blank between the forms and clamping them tight.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wjmtp2HY/IMG-5185.jpg)
Then using the plastic head hammer, went around the edge to start the bend. Just a hit or two then move on, repeating the circle a couple of times (had to loosen and swing the clamp around to get all the way around the piece). If you take the edge down too much in one spot, it will wrinkle the metal, the goal is to push it down evenly, letting the metal flow - the edge will get thicker than the starting plate, and stretch down.
(https://i.postimg.cc/tCf1wfKz/IMG-5186.jpg)
As you can see, it did not bend down all that far, maybe 20 degrees or so. When the hammer bounces off without moving the metal, it has work hardened and wont go any farther without cracking.

Then, annealed it by heating up to a dull glow and cooling - its okay to quench it in water to keep the process moving, otherwise it would take all day to let it air cool. Copper/brass are different than steel, they get soft when heated, but do not harden when quenched, the only way to harden copper/brass is to work it. Then back for another round with the hammer (BTW - I was doing both sheets, alternating between them, just showing the process on one)

(https://i.postimg.cc/MHLTkMFG/IMG-5188.jpg)
Went farther down, back for annealing again...
(https://i.postimg.cc/25dVq5VH/IMG-5189.jpg)
Now that it is past the midpoint, it goes quicker, the metal doesn't have as far to move at the edge. Another reheat and hammering...
(https://i.postimg.cc/V6Y5Xctz/IMG-5190.jpg)
and again:
(https://i.postimg.cc/V6Y5Xctz/IMG-5190.jpg)
Getting close now, next couple rounds will even out the high spots on the waves...
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZqzWKNKB/IMG-5192.jpg)
Almost there, one more round...
(https://i.postimg.cc/brrJFHLM/IMG-5193.jpg)
That got it down to shape. The part was tight around the form, had to pry it off since the edges grabbed a little into the grain.
Here are the two pieces all formed - took about an hour to do both.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bYVdSWwj/IMG-5194.jpg)
The parts are soaking in some pickle acid to clean them up now. The next step will be to remount the form on the lathe faceplate, and use the tailstock to push the other block in tight to hold the plate, and turn the rim to final size. The blocks are sized to give a slightly oversize rim on the plate to leave room for turning it smooth and to final size - not practical (at least at a hobbyist skill level) to take the part to final size and round by hammering.

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: bouch on June 12, 2019, 06:44:02 PM

Nice thing about forming copper is that it takes so little force to bend when annealed, using a plastic head hammer. I'll spend as much time annealing it  between bends as doing the bending, usually takes about 8 cycles.

I took a class in copper raising a couple of years ago, in that we used planishing hammers and polished metal stakes to do the shaping on a bowl, that style was a lot more work but gave a great organic shape. A local welding shop has a classroom building where they teach metal forming, blacksmithing, welding, glass working, all sorts of handy things.

My father has a couple nice molds to make lead hammer heads.  They work great on forming copper for boilers, as the lead deforms before they marr the annealed copper.  Once they "wear out", you take the worn out head, melt it and pour it back into the mold.

Lately, hes been (slowly) forming the parts for the boilers for a 2" Case and a Coles' American LaFrance steam fire engine.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on June 12, 2019, 07:27:43 PM
Great copper work Chris!  Glad you enjoyed the sunshine.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on June 12, 2019, 08:08:45 PM
Hello Chris,

Beautiful job on forming the Copper :ThumbsUp:

OK you already know that I am not the sharpest Crayola in the box, but could you have purchased an end cap to fit that tube? :noidea: :headscratch:

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 12, 2019, 09:32:17 PM
Hello Chris,

Beautiful job on forming the Copper :ThumbsUp:

OK you already know that I am not the sharpest Crayola in the box, but could you have purchased an end cap to fit that tube? :noidea: :headscratch:

Have a great day,
Thomas
Doubt it - its not a standard plumbing size as far as I know.  :headscratch: Also, the endcaps I have seen at the hardware store are usually pretty thin. Though, just my luck they are $2 apiece and very heavy!   :shrug:

I am following Kozo's boiler making methods, and just assumed I would have to make them. There will be cross ribs on the inside of the caps to strengthen it for the pressure in the areas where there are not bushings, going by his tables in the New Shay book for maximum unsupported areas.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 12, 2019, 09:34:44 PM

Nice thing about forming copper is that it takes so little force to bend when annealed, using a plastic head hammer. I'll spend as much time annealing it  between bends as doing the bending, usually takes about 8 cycles.

I took a class in copper raising a couple of years ago, in that we used planishing hammers and polished metal stakes to do the shaping on a bowl, that style was a lot more work but gave a great organic shape. A local welding shop has a classroom building where they teach metal forming, blacksmithing, welding, glass working, all sorts of handy things.

My father has a couple nice molds to make lead hammer heads.  They work great on forming copper for boilers, as the lead deforms before they marr the annealed copper.  Once they "wear out", you take the worn out head, melt it and pour it back into the mold.

Lately, hes been (slowly) forming the parts for the boilers for a 2" Case and a Coles' American LaFrance steam fire engine.
Clever hammer design! I've been using the plastic headed one you see in the photos, works well and doesn't dent the copper like a steel one would. The end gets a little chewed when it hits the edge of the sheet, but I figure when it gets too chewed looking that a quick push on the sander will fix it (its nylon, I think)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 12, 2019, 09:35:20 PM
Great copper work Chris!  Glad you enjoyed the sunshine.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Wonderful weather out there today, spring is finally here (for a day).   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on June 12, 2019, 09:42:22 PM
Most copper pipe caps I have seen available here fit the outside of the tube and are thin as Chris said. I believe the thin ones are intended for low pressure or smoke tests on plumbing piping installs. I've never come across thick ones that fit inside the tube as Kozo's methods suggest, which does give a strong safe boiler construction and looks realistic in terms of a boiler outline. Could be that there are thick ID fit ones existing, but I don't know where to find 'em. :shrug:

If anyone does know, please spill the beans!  :Director:

I usually make any I need just the way Chris did (except I use mild steel formers rather than the special NASA high tech composite "Wud" ones Chris uses).   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 12, 2019, 11:37:54 PM
This part always makes me nervous and take the cuts gently - copper likes to grab if too deep a cut is taken. I mounted the form block on the faceplate again, and pressed the first endcap against it with a scrap piece that already had a hole in it, instant heavy washer for the live center to press against without making a hole in the copper. Then turned the rim down to size to fit the inside of the boiler shell:
(https://i.postimg.cc/7Y1V8j80/IMG-5195.jpg)
You can see the wavy edge at the end of the cap on the left, that is the last of the wavy pattern the metal made as it was hammered to shape and stretched/moved down. To get rid of that, a pass, very carefully and slow feed in, with the parting tool...
(https://i.postimg.cc/htp1hxGG/IMG-5196.jpg)
And the real test - fitting the offcut from the boiler tube (deburred around the edge) to see how it fits, and if the measurements were accurate. Good snug sliding fit, just enough for the silver solder to wick into. If I had gone too far by a little, the copper rim could have been spread slightly, but it looks good.
(https://i.postimg.cc/t4XzXDpf/IMG-5197.jpg)
One cap turned down, one to go...



Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on June 13, 2019, 12:24:33 AM
Wow......

Planisher of the Year Award  may be appropriate  :Jester: .......

HSS tooling [over carbide] usually helps eliminate any grabbing of annealed copper

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 13, 2019, 12:44:38 AM
Wow......

Planisher of the Year Award  may be appropriate  :Jester: .......

HSS tooling [over carbide] usually helps eliminate any grabbing of annealed copper

Derek
That would explain why the parting tool worked well. Thanks!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 13, 2019, 03:36:03 PM
This has not been my month for ordering this (and getting them). Online Metals backordered one of the pipes I ordered without telling me, then swore up and down it would be in and ship out yesterday (two weeks late). Not so - cancelled that item, found it on McMasterCarr, same thing at half the price and it will be here tomorrow afternoon...
 :ShakeHead:

On a positive note, the vinyl lettering for the sides of the cab is out for delivery today!   :)

On the model, the rims of both end caps are turned to fit the boiler shell, am about to start fitting the internal ribs to the caps to prevent bowing of the flat surfaces - am using the tables in Kozo's book to place them.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on June 13, 2019, 04:18:19 PM
Coming right along Chris  :ThumbsUp:

Thanks for the tutorial on forming copper, might need to use it sometime in the future.

 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on June 13, 2019, 04:42:40 PM
Damn Dog you made that look easy and I learned something here thanks for showing us..... :ThumbsUp:



 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on June 13, 2019, 05:15:12 PM
"
This has not been my month for ordering this (and getting them). Online Metals backordered one of the pipes I ordered without telling me, then swore up and down it would be in and ship out yesterday (two weeks late). Not so - cancelled that item, found it on McMasterCarr, same thing at half the price and it will be here tomorrow afternoon...
 :ShakeHead: "

[size=12
pt]FROM CNR6400:

Hi Chris, It pays to shop around these days. McMaster is hard to beat for carrying / distributing just about everything! I can usually get small qty of materials from them at a fraction of what the local Metal Supermarket charges (Canadian version of Online Metals I guess), even after shipping and money exchange!

The flanged end looked like a great fit in your tube section in the last photo.
[/size]  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 13, 2019, 06:36:42 PM
Thanks CNR! I have a McMaster warehouse location only an hour away, so they deliver next day by UPS, got lucky on where all the distribution points are. OM's prices can be better at times, but their shipping costs have skyrocketed this past year or so, after Thysson Krup bought them.

The lettering arrived for the cab, VERY happy on how that came out. These are vinyl adhesive-back letters like you would use on glass doors and signs. They let you design the set online, picking font, size, color, etc. and they send it on transfer paper, so all you have to do is line it up on the surface, put a tape hinge on one edge, peal away the backing, and squeegee it down, and peel off the transfer paper. All that is left behind is the lettering, which is nice and thin so it can form to small surface features. I got it from www.customvinyllettering.net
Here is how it looks:
(https://i.postimg.cc/z3ZJ4dmd/IMG-5200.jpg)
Its a close match to the original, not exact but as close as I could get. Not bad for $8. They did not have a 'dash' for the line between the words, so I added that with a strip of the vinyl tape I used for etching the plates.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on June 13, 2019, 07:43:57 PM
Hello Chris,

OH WOW! The lettering looks great. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 13, 2019, 07:56:09 PM
After sitting and admiring the lettering for a bit, got out the book and worked out the position/size of the cross ribs on the end caps. Turns out that it just needs one horizontal rib, which makes the job lots easier than a crossed pair. So, sawed out a blank of thick copper and used the belt sander and a file to fit them to the position:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Wzwd6DfY/IMG-5201.jpg)
Assuming the elf-spector approves, they will be silver soldered in place, but first I want to make the bushings for the sight glass/etc and drill those holes, then solder them all at once.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: mklotz on June 13, 2019, 09:15:33 PM
Hey, Chris, I think your elf-spector is related to an expatriate elf with a bad (aren't they all?) New Your accent who showed up in my shop and conned me into hiring him.  He says his name is Fritz Bruder and he loves to wrench on my engines...

(https://www.use.com/images/s_2/630f48bb34fa7e719620_1.jpg) (https://www.use.com/630f48bb34fa7e719620?p=1)
(https://www.use.com/images/clicklarge3.gif) (https://www.use.com/630f48bb34fa7e719620?p=1)

He tires easily standing all the time so I made him a crate.  He likes to sit on it and wear his weird welding helmet that he says he picked up in some place in England but I think he's lying, probably light-fingered it from some museum.

(https://www.use.com/images/s_2/630f48bb34fa7e719620_4.jpg) (https://www.use.com/630f48bb34fa7e719620?p=4)
(https://www.use.com/images/clicklarge3.gif) (https://www.use.com/630f48bb34fa7e719620?p=4)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 13, 2019, 09:29:38 PM
Hey, Chris, I think your elf-spector is related to an expatriate elf with a bad (aren't they all?) New Your accent who showed up in my shop and conned me into hiring him.  He says his name is Fritz Bruder and he loves to wrench on my engines...

(https://www.use.com/images/s_2/630f48bb34fa7e719620_1.jpg) (https://www.use.com/630f48bb34fa7e719620?p=1)
(https://www.use.com/images/clicklarge3.gif) (https://www.use.com/630f48bb34fa7e719620?p=1)
He tires easily standing all the time so I made him a crate.  He likes to sit on it and wear his weird welding helmet that he says he picked up in some place in England but I think he's lying, probably light-fingered it from some museum.

(https://www.use.com/images/s_2/630f48bb34fa7e719620_4.jpg) (https://www.use.com/630f48bb34fa7e719620?p=4)
(https://www.use.com/images/clicklarge3.gif) (https://www.use.com/630f48bb34fa7e719620?p=4)


Love it!!    :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on June 13, 2019, 10:36:21 PM
You want ordering frustration, I got one for you.

About 5-6 weeks ago I ordered 11 power distribution panels for a large-ish project I'm working on.  A major part of this project is scheduled to be installed over the July 4th plant shutdown - the panels were supposed to be delivered about 3 weeks after the order was placed.  They have not arrived yet, and tomorrow we have a meeting with their corporate representatives to discuss EXACTLY when the most important 3 of these 11 panels will be delivered.  The other 8 panels aren't scheduled to ship until late July. And this will be an international shipment, not domestic - something we didn't know at the time of the initial order.

I'm used to dealing with long lead-times and schedule delays, but this one - not so much.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gary.a.ayres on June 13, 2019, 10:45:15 PM
The lettering looks fab against  that red  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on June 13, 2019, 10:55:46 PM
Marv:

I think that Fritz's twin brother is camped out on my shelf.  He's always sitting around and when I ask him why he's sitting around and when he's going to get to work, he says he's on his "Union" break.  See attached photo.

Crueby thinks he's devolved into a gnome - I dunno, biology was never my thing.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 13, 2019, 11:01:51 PM
Marv:

I think that Fritz's twin brother is camped out on my shelf.  He's always sitting around and when I ask him why he's sitting around and when he's going to get to work, he says he's on his "Union" break.  See attached photo.

Crueby thinks he's devolved into a gnome - I dunno, biology was never my thing.

Don
Other direction, I used to be an elf, worked for the big guy up north and everything...   :Jester:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 14, 2019, 12:58:26 AM
Pressure gauge placement question - usually I see the gauge placed with a siphon tube running down and back up from one of the manifolds or pipes at the top of the boiler. Is there a need for the down/up, or if there is room, could it just be on a short tube going up from the steam dome or sight glass top?
 :headscratch:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: AOG on June 14, 2019, 01:03:48 AM
The purpose of the tube shape is to condense the steam into water before it goes into the gauge. Having a straight tube won’t allow that to happen. The steam will damage the gauge.

Tony
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 14, 2019, 01:11:52 AM
The purpose of the tube shape is to condense the steam into water before it goes into the gauge. Having a straight tube won’t allow that to happen. The steam will damage the gauge.

Tony
So the tube does need to dip down then back up again? Thanks!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: rspringer on June 14, 2019, 05:08:21 PM
If you want it to go straight up put a pig tail (loop for you city folk) in the line.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 14, 2019, 05:45:52 PM
If you want it to go straight up put a pig tail (loop for you city folk) in the line.
Just went and looked at the gauge on my G1 steamer, factory made, and thats how they did it, couple loops in the middle of the tube. That would work for mine too, thanks for the tip!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 14, 2019, 06:55:08 PM
This morning I made up the through bushings for the boiler, to mount the sight glass on the backhead and the pipes on the steam dome. They are simple stepped bronze bushings, threaded through for the fittings. Then started boring the holes in the endcaps for the bushings and flue tube. With the rear cap clamped to a piece of wood in the mill vise, first drilled
(https://i.postimg.cc/nV7SNC90/IMG-5206.jpg)
then bored to size, close slip fit for the bushing to leave space for the silver solder to flow through.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8PSXGNhD/IMG-5207.jpg)
This was first use of a new boring head I picked up from RDG tools, so far I like it a lot. The Sherline version had a setscrew wheel that sets the diameter, just like normal, but in there case it just butts against the end of the slider, so it is very easy to have the slider move when tightening the slider lock. Also, the wheel would tend to unscrew itself while boring, so you constantly have to run it back in before unlocking it. This one has a wheel that moves the slider both ways, which gets rid of that. It is calibrated in metric, but that is no problem, I use both units of measure all the time.

After the two sight glass bushings were fit, moved over to the larger holes for the firetube. The tube is due here in a couple hours, so I am stopping short of dimension so I can take it out to actual measured size of the tube, dont want to depend on the spec.
(https://i.postimg.cc/xT3xThRm/IMG-5208.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on June 14, 2019, 06:57:34 PM
Other direction, I used to be an elf, worked for the big guy up north and everything...   :Jester:
I was talking about Fritz's twin brother, we ALL know about you.  Or is that, "We know ALL about you", I can never keep that straight.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 14, 2019, 07:00:36 PM
Other direction, I used to be an elf, worked for the big guy up north and everything...   :Jester:
I was talking about Fritz's twin brother, we ALL know about you.  Or is that, "We know ALL about you", I can never keep that straight.

Don
:ROFL:
If I could just get Hollywood interested in the story!  Hmm, The Elf That Ate My Workshop...  or, Swarf - the Elf Vs Rocky Fight!
 :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on June 14, 2019, 10:29:24 PM
Why limit yourself to Hollywood?  For some reason they seem to be making Japanese style monster movies again.

Think about it....

Swarf - the monster that ate Tokyo!!
Coming soon to a workshop  near you.

Or how about...
Godzilla vs. Swarf

Or,

Mothra vs. Swarf

Or we can make it a really epic 3 way battle -

Mothra vs. Godzilla vs. Swarf

In hindsight, it appears that I spent WAY too much time at home on Friday nights watching B/W monster movies.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 14, 2019, 11:20:54 PM
Why limit yourself to Hollywood?  For some reason they seem to be making Japanese style monster movies again.

Think about it....

Swarf - the monster that ate Tokyo!!
Coming soon to a workshop  near you.

Or how about...
Godzilla vs. Swarf

Or,

Mothra vs. Swarf

Or we can make it a really epic 3 way battle -

Mothra vs. Godzilla vs. Swarf

In hindsight, it appears that I spent WAY too much time at home on Friday nights watching B/W monster movies.

Don
Swarfzilla vs the ChipMonster....
Guess it shows the kind of movies we grew up watching...
 :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 14, 2019, 11:24:50 PM
The firetube arrived this afternoon    :cartwheel:   so I was able to finish boring the hole for it in the rear end cap:
(https://i.postimg.cc/YqcD7V46/IMG-5209.jpg)
snuck up on the dimension, checking frequently with a chunk cut off the end of the tube (it was long enough to cut the main firetube, the steam dome, and leave this piece)
(https://i.postimg.cc/ncvRhk76/IMG-5210.jpg)
With a decent fit, removed the cap from the mill and test fit with the real firetube. One cap down, one to go!
(https://i.postimg.cc/x1nsJz3q/IMG-5211.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on June 14, 2019, 11:40:32 PM
This is interesting Chris. I've never seen one of these built before.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 14, 2019, 11:53:29 PM
This is interesting Chris. I've never seen one of these built before.---Brian
Great to have you along for the ride. This boiler is a little bigger but simpler than the one on the Lombard. Coming together fairly quickly.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on June 15, 2019, 12:16:42 AM
Marv:

I think that Fritz's twin brother is camped out on my shelf.  He's always sitting around and when I ask him why he's sitting around and when he's going to get to work, he says he's on his "Union" break.  See attached photo.

Crueby thinks he's devolved into a gnome - I dunno, biology was never my thing.

Don
Other direction, I used to be an elf, worked for the big guy up north and everything...   :Jester:

Chris is talking about the Real Big Guy, Not me or Brian.

If I remember correct I first meet Chris when he was talking a RC boat brake, but he told us he was working at some photo place. I knew better I had seen him around the Big Shop

Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 15, 2019, 01:04:56 AM
Marv:

I think that Fritz's twin brother is camped out on my shelf.  He's always sitting around and when I ask him why he's sitting around and when he's going to get to work, he says he's on his "Union" break.  See attached photo.

Crueby thinks he's devolved into a gnome - I dunno, biology was never my thing.

Don
Other direction, I used to be an elf, worked for the big guy up north and everything...   :Jester:

Chris is talking about the Real Big Guy, Not me or Brian.

If I remember correct I first meet Chris when he was talking a RC boat brake, but he told us he was working at some photo place. I knew better I had seen him around the Big Shop

Gerald.
Thats right, first met Gerald when I was in high school, I think, maybe college, was a long long time ago, on the Great Lakes RC boat club circuit. Great fun going to meets at all the clubs around Lake Ontario. After that started working for The Claus, but my cover story was being a software engineer at Kodak, aka The Big Yellow Box.  Lasted 30 years there till too many clueless CEOs drove the company into the dustbin at high speed. Took early retirement at 51 and have been having tons of fun ever since! Most I will say about leaving the North Pole workshop is that the elves (me included) got into a spirited food fight with the reindeer, which ended with one reindeer getting bonked in the beezer with a beer stein, but as you know he made a fortune with that glowing red nose! Got back into the RC boats again as well as learning lots more about machining, still lots to learn in both arenas, which keeps it fun.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 15, 2019, 02:01:54 PM
The second cap is bored for the fire tube:
(https://i.postimg.cc/T20hF5p6/IMG-5213.jpg)
Here are the endcaps and tube so far:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Ghp9C3ys/IMG-5214.jpg)
Next up - the steam dome
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 15, 2019, 08:26:30 PM
Time to steam up the dome... Or make the steam dome...
Started with a short length from the firetube, and drilled/bored holes in the side to fit the bushings made the other day.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HW3xzT4n/IMG-5215.jpg)
test fitting the bushings, flanges on the inside:
(https://i.postimg.cc/q78B3rvk/IMG-5216.jpg)
Then turned up the cap piece from some bronze. The base is stepped to fit the tube, and it is drilled/tapped through for the water fill fitting and the safety valve.

(https://i.postimg.cc/SNsKtHDr/IMG-5217.jpg)
Then cut off the piece from the longer bronze bar. Back on the lathe, the top is domed to look more like the original:
(https://i.postimg.cc/QxyMLSzr/IMG-5218.jpg)

To get the fittings to fit down flat, milled in around the holes:
(https://i.postimg.cc/cLtLdwqt/IMG-5219.jpg)
To hold the dome in place on the boiler shell, I made up a curved piece to fit the inside of the boiler. Started with bronze bar held in a V-block on the rotary table, set to get the proper radius, and started milling. The cutter was long enough to reach halfway through the bar, so started with the top half:
(https://i.postimg.cc/C5vxx4Lk/IMG-5181.jpg)
then lowered the mill head to do the bottom half:
(https://i.postimg.cc/C1ShC2Rb/IMG-5183.jpg)
Checking the fit on the boiler tube, using the offcut from trimming the tube to length:
(https://i.postimg.cc/jjVd22Kg/IMG-5184.jpg)
Cut the part off the bar on the bandsaw, and mounted it on the lathe to drill/bore the center out to fit the outside of the steam dome tube:
(https://i.postimg.cc/tTkXBz6w/IMG-5221.jpg)
Here are the parts so far:
(https://i.postimg.cc/zvPqrX0k/IMG-5222.jpg)
The top assembly will be silver soldered up seperately, then it will be assembled onto the shell with the lower flange inside and then soldered to the shell. The lower flange gets a brass setscrew to hold it in place for soldering - this is not structural, so should be okay - Kozo did this a lot, so I am assuming it is okay to do.

Now, after taking those pictures, went into the other room for a minute and came back to find that the shop elves had the idea that I was making them a deep sea diving helmet!
(https://i.postimg.cc/prdP4nYT/IMG-5224.jpg)
 :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 15, 2019, 11:26:49 PM
Next part is the smokestack base. To get the smokebox to be shorter and take up less room, Marion made the smokestack base oblong rather than round, then transition to round before going out the roof. The only way I could come up with to make that shape was to take a plumbing pipe reducer fitting and squash the wider end in the vise to flatten two sides (upper left of the next photo). This came out very close to the desired size, which was a lucky find.

The base flange, which will go inside the boiler shell just like the one for the steam dome, therefore needs an oblong hole in it too to match the stack base. So, took the second base blank, which I had made at the same time and the same way as the one for the steam dome, and bored a round hole in it on the lathe that was the same diameter as the distance across the flats on the stack base. That was then mounted on the rotary table just off center, and the ends taken out wider one at a time:
(https://i.postimg.cc/3whtFMT8/IMG-5225.jpg)
Took a couple of tries to sneak up on the distance betwen the ends of the oblong slot till the part fit into it well:
(https://i.postimg.cc/DzcBCCvq/IMG-5227.jpg)
Fortunately this is not a pressure-holding part of the boiler, so it just had to be close enough to hold and solder in place. Here is a bottom view:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ydYn2Fx2/IMG-5228.jpg)
These parts can now be used to cut matching openings in the top of the boiler shell. The oblong hole will be bored round then taken out with a file (I'll try and channel some of Steam Guy Willy's filing skills for that one), since the boiler shell would not rotate far enough on the mill to cut the opening the same way.

I think that completes the parts for the boiler shell, next will be to bore the steam dome and smokestack holes in the shell. Quite a lot accomplished today!
 :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on June 16, 2019, 02:06:55 AM
Hi Chris, you are really moving along! Great work on the boiler parts.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Bucket Bob as a Navy diver was a neat touch.  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Art K on June 16, 2019, 02:40:41 AM
Chris,
You drop that deep sea diver from your RC sub right? :lolb:
Art
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 16, 2019, 03:39:27 AM
Yeah, now all night long I'll be hearing the elves clomping around in the bottom of the tub...!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 16, 2019, 03:49:08 AM
A couple of weeks ago one of the guys at the museum up in Maine with the real Lombard hauler that I based my model on sent me a animated video that had a lot of the proposed changes they have to the grounds at the logging museum. At the very end, he finished the animation up with a flyby of the big barn that they store the Lombards in, and he had added a Lombard-shaped weathervane to it. As soon as I saw that, I knew that I had to make that a reality. After some experimenting, settled on getting the outline waterjet cut at a place I found online where you can upload the design, they cut it for me in .100" thick stainless steel, at about 30" long. Added some braces to hold a stainless tube with bronze bearings for the post assembly, which is off the shelf items from one of the weathervane shops. Mailed it up to them, and today they got it installed on top of the Machinery Hall building that the Lombards are parked in. Here is how it looks:
(https://i.postimg.cc/yNc98Wgn/Weathervane-Installed.jpg)


Couple of video links that Herb Crosby at the museum sent me of the install and the event they held today, the spring Alewive Run where they had running races, the Lombards running, as well as the sawmills:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCdzijSzMyA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqLDfGGAcf0

And a link to a photo collection Herb took:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/w52TDw1PowqgLqQo7 (https://photos.app.goo.gl/w52TDw1PowqgLqQo7)
Wish I could have made it up there today, but I will be there in the fall for the Living History Days weekend that they hold.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 16, 2019, 04:51:21 PM
This morning finished off the stack base, had forgotten yesterday to flatten the sides of the flange so it fits in the smokebox:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Bnf0j9sS/IMG-5230.jpg)
Then got out my handy-dandy boiler-shell-holder-clamps - made these for the Lombard model, just needed to enlarge the arcs since this shell is 1/2" larger diameter. It bolts to the mill table, and the threaded rod on either side clamps down on the tube to hold it for drilling/milling. The centers of the arcs on the bottom halves are lined up on the centerline of the table, and are at the same height, so it holds the tube level and square to the table.
With the tube and clamps positioned so that I could do both the steam dome and stack holes without having to move any parts (to keep them in line at the top of the tube), drilled the starter hole for the boring head.
(https://i.postimg.cc/WpKjPqHJ/IMG-5234.jpg)
and then bored the hole out till the steam dome tube fit through. Fortunately this shell is large enough that I can get a hand in from the end to insert the dome, otherwise would have had to make a holder for it.
(https://i.postimg.cc/tJLHd8xz/IMG-5237.jpg)
Then cranked the table over for the stack hole, starting to drill/bore that out as well...
(https://i.postimg.cc/15qSRRk7/IMG-5239.jpg)


Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 16, 2019, 05:06:11 PM
Continuing on with the boiler, bored out the hole for the stack base to the front-to-back width of the base, where it was flattened.

(https://i.postimg.cc/TwjysMxC/IMG-5240.jpg)
Then, moved the table in a bit at a time and took a pass with the boring head till it was half the difference between the short and long dimensions on the stack. Then, back to center and did the same while moving the table outwards. This enlongated the hole for the base. A couple of test fits and took a few thou more off till it would go through the hole.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1RHncQJz/IMG-5242.jpg)
To hold the stack in place, drilled/tapped for a couple of 1-72 screws. The stack base does not need to hold pressure, so this joint will not need to be silver soldered, the screws will hold it on.
The steam dome WILL be silver soldered in place, and to keep it from shifting while soldering I drilled for some small screws there as well. To hold the dome in position for drilling, found a block of wood and a wedge the right size from the inside since it is way too far in for a clamp to reach:
(https://i.postimg.cc/KjZKSqvF/IMG-5245.jpg)
and drilled/tapped from the outside, down through the base flange.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wM016X7N/IMG-5246.jpg)
Here are the parts so far, almost ready for soldering things up:
(https://i.postimg.cc/YqC4dssz/IMG-5247.jpg)
Still need to make a set of blanking plugs for the static pressure test, and want to remake the hand pump I have to improve its function. Need to set up a connector to the boiler from the pump, and also a pressure gauge for the test.
For the silver soldering, I think the order will be:First set, using a higher-temperature ( 'hard' version) silver solder
- solder the base flanges onto the stack and steam dome- solder the ribs and bushings into the end capsSecond set, using the lower-temperature ( 'easy' version) silver solder- solder the steam dome to the shell, at same time install the bushings and cap- solder in the front end cap and firetube, rear cap in place to align tube
- solder in the rear cap to shell and firetube (doing rear last allows shell to stand up on front end for this step)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: rspringer on June 16, 2019, 07:26:11 PM
Are you going to put cross tubes in the flue? If not think about putting in a spiral sheet of stainless steel.  It will force the hot gases to make contact with the sides of the flue.  It really increased the efficiency of my donkey and the flues are only 1/2 inch.  In heat transfer turbulence is your friend.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 16, 2019, 07:57:55 PM
Are you going to put cross tubes in the flue? If not think about putting in a spiral sheet of stainless steel.  It will force the hot gases to make contact with the sides of the flue.  It really increased the efficiency of my donkey and the flues are only 1/2 inch.  In heat transfer turbulence is your friend.
I've been debating the cross tubes - did that on others, but didn't have any equal boiler without them for comparison so I wasn't sure how much they helped, and they do add a lot of extra joints to possibly leak (fought that a couple times).

The spiral sheet is an interesting idea - just take a strip, twist it, and slide it in? Thats too easy!?!?! 

I do recall a Mythbusters episode where they were doing sewer gas explosions, and putting objects in the pipe changed the wavefront, but this is different, just getting turbulance for heat transfer.... 

Do you have any pictures of how you did yours?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: rspringer on June 17, 2019, 06:15:54 AM
It is as simple as this
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 17, 2019, 02:18:03 PM
It is as simple as this
Slick! I have some sheet stainless, can make that up and give it a try. Thanks!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 17, 2019, 09:04:56 PM
Been making up the blanking plugs for the boiler static testing, also got a new body made for my hand pump that uses o-rings and flat plungers rather than small ball bearings for the check valves, like someone posted a drawing of here a while back. Curious to see how that works out, I always have trouble getting a good seal with the bearings, they work for most use but for static test they tend to seep just enough to cause a slight pressure drop. The rest of the parts on the pump are from the old one.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y0Xx7NtG/IMG-5248.jpg)
I have a long bar of surplus hex stock that I have had on the shelf, made a great blank for the body withouth having to silver solder anything up for the shape, it is large enough for all the passages as is.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Firebird on June 17, 2019, 09:30:51 PM
Hi Chris

Great work  :ThumbsUp:

It was me that posted some drawings of the hand pump I made using flat valves and O rings which works really well.

When testing my boilers I also use a one way valve in the pipe from pump to boiler

Cheers

Rich
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 17, 2019, 09:32:44 PM
Hi Chris

Great work  :ThumbsUp:

It was me that posted some drawings of the hand pump I made using flat valves and O rings which works really well.

When testing my boilers I also use a one way valve in the pipe from pump to boiler

Cheers

Rich
Thanks! It works fine in initial tests, it will get a good workout when the boiler testing starts.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on June 17, 2019, 11:54:13 PM
I understand the following may be a simple statements, but are  :old: and so true

1. a pocket of air the size of a grain of rice [in a fluid system] will cause pressure decay
2. this decay continues until that pocket of air is adsorbed back into the volume of fluid as entrained gas [pressure then stabilizes]
3. pressure decay or bypass is more difficult to resolve at 1 Bar, than 100 Bar

Derek [after work ..... :killcomputer: in gun mounts, missile launchers, submarines, iron & steel mills and a little steam]
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 18, 2019, 12:24:37 AM
I understand the following may be a simple statements, but are  :old: and so true

1. a pocket of air the size of a grain of rice [in a fluid system] will cause pressure decay
2. this decay continues until that pocket of air is adsorbed back into the volume of fluid as entrained gas [pressure then stabilizes]
3. pressure decay or bypass is more difficult to resolve at 1 Bar, than 100 Bar

Derek [after work ..... :killcomputer: in gun mounts, missile launchers, submarines, iron & steel mills and a little steam]
 
The little things in a system that can drive you crazy!   :insane:
Back when I was working in R&D on inkjet printers, we had a project where we were building a large-format color inkjet printer (printed up to 5' wide paper on rolls, 2" wide swaths in 6 colors at once). The moving print heads were fed with very long plastic tubes from the ink supplies. Drove the team nuts with air bubbles in the lines (which would get moved into the heads and cause vapor lock in the ejector chambers), they could not find the source of the leak, were degassing inks, all sort of things, till they found out that the type of plastic used in the tubes was porous to air but not liquids...   :facepalm:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 18, 2019, 05:13:32 PM
Boiler assembly time! Got the first components silver soldered together, the steam dome/stack base flanges and the end caps with their ribs and bushings:
(https://i.postimg.cc/xdJGr5yJ/IMG-5250.jpg)
These were done with the higher-temperature version of the silver solder, to help resist softening these joints in the coming operations, which will use the lower temperature 'easy' version of the solder.
(https://i.postimg.cc/xdwv9mts/IMG-5251.jpg)
Next the steam dome goes into the boiler shell, and will solder in the bushings on it at the same time...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on June 18, 2019, 05:26:43 PM
Hello Chris,

Boiler is looking real good and I like your use of two different temperature silver solders. :ThumbsUp:

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 18, 2019, 06:16:27 PM
Thanks Thomas! As I like to say, practize makes prefect.... or something like that!   :Lol:

After lunch, got the steam dome parts inserted into place and held tight with a small prick punch in the copper next to the fittings so they would not shift during heating. Added flux, heat, and solder:
(https://i.postimg.cc/6qJffmSL/IMG-5254.jpg)
The solder flowed nicely through the joints, could see it on the inside of the boiler. Thats one thing it took me a several boilers to learn: don't be stingy with the solder wire. I used to put a section of wire on the outside of the joint, and let it flow in as it heated up. Held parts together well, but did not make for a pressure tight joint in all cases - where there is a inside flange, the solder will wick into the joint as far as it can, which can starve the joint. Finally learned to have a length of the wire ready as it flowed, and add more to fill the joint better and let it flow farther around the joint. That seems to be working much better. Also checked my supply of the 'easy' grade, saw it was getting low, and just order more of each grade from Rio Grande jewelers supply - they had a decent price at the moment, works out to about $20 for a 20 foot coil.

Letting that all cool, then into the pickle for a swim and brushing down. If it looks good all round the seams then next will be the front end cap. If anyplace looks like a dry spot, then will resolder that place first and clean it again.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 18, 2019, 08:17:54 PM
After cleanup the steam dome joints all looked good, silver solder coming through the joint on the inside of the tube all the way round, which is an excellent sign.  Then put in the front end cap and the firetube - used a couple nicks with a prick punch to limit the distance they would slide in, and put the back end cap in position to hold the firetube aligned properly.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MHWQ9J6w/IMG-5256.jpg)
Letting that cool down, then will give it a bath in the pickle and wire brush it all to see how those joints penetrated. Once I get to the rear end cap will not be able to see inside anymore, but doing that while its possible.  Oh, and for pickle I am using Sparex 2 jewelers solution - comes as a powder, you mix it with water to make the pickle. Works great on brass and copper, not so much on steels. I have it in a 2 gallon bucket with a screw on lid with a rubber seal to keep it from evaporating. The bucket is deep enough to get 3/4 of the boiler submerged, so to do both ends means turning it around for a second soaking.

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 18, 2019, 09:03:02 PM
After waiting for the boiler to cool down, while sitting on the porch with a book (tough job but someone's gotta do it) took it in to rinse off the loose scale prior to putting it in the pickle, and a good sign that the first end cap holds water  not a pressure check, but a good first sign of no big holes. In for a soak now...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 18, 2019, 10:03:51 PM
After cleaning up the end cap area, looks like it covered okay but one side was iffy, so just redid that side, back to cooling down waiting with a book and napping on the porch...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on June 18, 2019, 11:23:19 PM
Hi Chris , Great progress on the boiler!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

I see lots of vaporized dihydrogen monoxide in your future!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 18, 2019, 11:56:14 PM
Hi Chris , Great progress on the boiler!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

I see lots of vaporized dihydrogen monoxide in your future!
Hope so! For now just a lot of CO2 and vaporized dihydrogen monoxide from the propane torch...
 :cheers:

Don't forget, still need to build the firebox shell, a dummy, the front boiler stand, ashpit chute, water tanks, and the steering engine. A ways to go yet, but close!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on June 19, 2019, 01:07:06 AM
I just love a good solder job with penetration....... :cheers: looking great Dog hopefully no leaks...... :ThumbsUp:


 :popcorn:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 19, 2019, 01:10:36 AM
I just love a good solder job with penetration....... :cheers: looking great Dog hopefully no leaks...... :ThumbsUp:


 :popcorn:
Don
Thanks Don, so far so good, but there always has to be a leak or four...  Got it all cleaned up for doing the rear end cap but daylight is fading so maybe in the morning.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on June 19, 2019, 12:47:56 PM
Chris--Other boilers I have seen have clusters of small diameter tubes clustered together with soldered end plates. Does your boiler not have that?--Brian
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 19, 2019, 12:59:33 PM
Chris--Other boilers I have seen have clusters of small diameter tubes clustered together with soldered end plates. Does your boiler not have that?--Brian
Not on this style, which will have a butane fired burner in the one firetube. On a coal or wick burner there is usually a chamber with the multiple tubes going through the water jacket. There are quite a few different arrangements possible in boilers, this one is very simple to make. It is very common in factory made guage 1 loco models. The original machine had a coal firebox at the back with a dozen or so rows of small tubes through the main shell.
Here is a view inside the smokebox on the real machine, showing the rows of tubes coming through the water shell from the firebox:
(https://i.postimg.cc/MKh0GPJx/IMG-1381.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 19, 2019, 01:50:23 PM
And the second endcap is on, cooling off before going in the pickle bath. Used up the last of my Easy-grade silver solder, but more should be here tomorrow if it is needed for leak fixing...
(https://i.postimg.cc/tRN8W6CL/IMG-5257.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on June 19, 2019, 02:47:11 PM
What is inside all of the small tubes. Is it steam, water, or does the larger surface area conduct greater heat from whatever is burning to the water.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 19, 2019, 03:27:27 PM
What is inside all of the small tubes. Is it steam, water, or does the larger surface area conduct greater heat from whatever is burning to the water.
Hi Brian,
Here is a cross section I put together for a talk last year of the boiler in the Marion:
(https://i.postimg.cc/WpnVwC1p/Boiler-Cross-Section-Labelled.png)
Its very typical of locomotive, traction engine, as well as many marine and stationary boilers. Coal or wood in the firebox on the left, hot air goes through the tubes to warm the water more and out the stack. The firebox itself is surrounded by water - all the tubes and the firebox are designed to give a large surface area in contact with the water to heat it most efficiently. One thing about this style boiler, you never want the water level to fall below the top of the firebox, or that metal will get too hot, soften, and collapse - big job for the engineer was to monitor the water level by a sight glass in the back wall and add more using the injectors. Injectors could be either mechanical pumps or steam driven venturi style to push the water past a check valve. On the Marion there were two large water tanks, one each side of the boiler, for the injectors to draw from. This let them keep the volume of water in the boiler itself smaller, so they did not have to heat such a huge volume at startup, plus they could refill the side tanks easily since they were not under pressure.

By comparison, the model version will have a dummy lower firebox, and the main shell will extend all the way to othe back end. One large firetube instead of dozens of little ones, and it will have a butane fired burner at the back end of it.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 19, 2019, 03:47:59 PM
The boiler has finished its bath in the pickle solution, visually the joints look good, which is step one. Just put in the blanking plugs and filled it with water, no drips or seeps so far, which is a good step two. Got things to do this afternoon, will get a shot at a static pressure test this evening hopefully.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Firebird on June 19, 2019, 08:27:57 PM
Hi Chris

Great job on the boiler  :ThumbsUp:

What type of propane torch do you use

Cheers

Rich
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 19, 2019, 09:13:43 PM
Hi Chris

Great job on the boiler  :ThumbsUp:

What type of propane torch do you use

Cheers

Rich
Hi Rich,


I have a Sievert 2238 handle with interchangeable tips,plus their regulator that coonects to a 20 pound propane gas grill tank. Handy setup, have an assortment of the tips for fine flame to large boiler roaster, nbrs 393802,393902,394002,3941p,2941p,2942p. I originally got the 2944 tip and handle, but then learned that one does not have interchangeable tips. Currently using Harris Black flux paste, also have used Tenacity 5 flux, both work very well. For very small parts, have a couple of small handheld butane ones that can be used in the shop. The Seivert is outdoor only.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on June 19, 2019, 10:55:40 PM
It's not so much hot air as a lot of combustion gas and soot from the coal.  In many more modern locomotives the steam was superheated by passing in a smaller tube through one of the fire tubes, into the firebox, and back out through another fire tube.  Since the flue gases are very corrosive, the superheater tubes need to be made from a corrosion resistant steel.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Firebird on June 19, 2019, 11:20:35 PM
Hi Chris

Thats interesting  :thinking:

Sievert torches are not cheap. Julian and I both have the cheaper versions from Machine Mart which are ok but perhaps not giving us the high heat needed when doing bigger boiler jobs

I don't want to side track your build too much so if anyone has some technical spec on torches perhaps they would be able to open a topic

Cheers

Rich
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 19, 2019, 11:37:06 PM
 :whoohoo: :pinkelephant: :cartwheel: :pinkelephant: :whoohoo: :cartwheel:

Oh. Guess I should explain the dancing...!
This morning I got the initial boiler soldering done, but did not have time to pressure test it. After getting home this afternoon, started setting up the static test gear - installing the blanking plugs, getting the hose from the pump to the boiler hooked up, all that stuff. Filled the boiler up full of water, sealed the last plug, and started pumping.


Nothing on the gauge...

 :shrug:

Narrowed it down to the new hand pump - it will pump water with no back pressure, but for some reason does not want to build up pressure. So, will figure that one out later - got my old pump out that uses ball bearings for the check valves, and instantly got pressure built up.
That identified a leak in the joints going to the pressure gauge. Tightened that up, solved. Then one by one started getting leaks in a GOOD place - around the blanking plugs! I had tried using o-rings to seal the flats of the plug and bushing, but that was not holding too well, and I was getting a stream like this:
(https://i.postimg.cc/XY0fdnnq/IMG-5263.jpg)
from under the o-ring. Which is why the static test is ALWAYS done with water rather than compressed air (several reasons, actually - can instantly see a leak, and if something fails catastrophically you just get a 'phut' sound and some water spills, no explosion or nasty shrapnel).

So, took out the blanking plugs and wrapped the threads in teflon tape, reinserted them, and pumped up the pressure again:
(https://i.postimg.cc/QdkpqvMb/IMG-5265.jpg)
And it STAYED there! No more leaks, no drips, runs, drops forming, nothing!!!!
 :whoohoo: :pinkelephant: :cartwheel: :whoohoo: :wine1:

This is the first time ever that I had a boiler hold pressure the first time. The first one was a VERY complex boiler (Kozo's New Shay) and I was just learning the silver soldering, since then it usually still took several fixes and re-do's. Big thing I did differently this time was use more solder on each joint, having finally learned that on these wide flanges the initial solder wicks all the way in, and it needs more to keep spots from getting starved. The solder wire is not that expensive, well worth putting in another bit on each joint.
So, will get things cleaned up and put away and then go enjoy the evening!  Hmmm... may clean it up tomorrow instead!
Oh, and here is my test setup - plastic box of water for the hand pump to sit in, going through a short air hose with a shutoff valve on it (so the slight leak in the checkvalve on the pump does not matter), and the boiler with a pressure gauge on top (several adapters on the stack, each boiler seems to wind up with different threads) and the blanking plugs on all the bushings.  Very simple setup, for a very important test - would never want to try steaming an un-tested boiler!!

(https://i.postimg.cc/BvS27NLG/IMG-5264.jpg)
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 19, 2019, 11:43:48 PM
Hi Chris

Thats interesting  :thinking:

Sievert torches are not cheap. Julian and I both have the cheaper versions from Machine Mart which are ok but perhaps not giving us the high heat needed when doing bigger boiler jobs

I don't want to side track your build too much so if anyone has some technical spec on torches perhaps they would be able to open a topic

Cheers

Rich
No, they are not cheap, but they work very well and I think are well worth the investment for them - with the different tips available they can do everything from a small handrail to a large boiler and everything in between. I used their regulator adapter for the grill tank, so I knew everything was compatible for pressure and flow requirements. The prices do vary depending where you buy them, well worth the time to shop around. Given that I will be holding the thing, its comforting to know that it is a good quality tool that wont fail in my face - would be very nervous about something like a harbor fright cheapo knockoff - they may work, but what if you get the bad one? The Seivert torch tips have a huge range of heat output. If someone knows more about them, I agree that it would make a good pinned reference thread! I learned about them on one of the forums (was either here or HMEM back when I was making the Shay). Also part of that should be a discussion of silver solders and fluxes - one of those topics with lots of favorites and rules of thumb, I am sure.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on June 20, 2019, 01:35:30 AM
Hi Chris  i bought my Sievert torch equipment 53 years ago  (when it was imperial !!) and have used it ever since... i have also still got the receipt for the gas bottle deposit  2 shillings and 4 pence !!!  however the shop has since closed down about 1985  so i can say goodbye to that...about  12  pence now !!!.... good to see the boiler coming together and holding pressure. soon be in steam  yea...

willy
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on June 20, 2019, 02:10:48 AM
Hello Chris,

Congratulations on the Boiler :praise2:

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on June 20, 2019, 02:33:50 AM
Great glad it all worked out for you Chris. Just a jam up job all the way around and it helps to have good equipment to do the job with and the expertise for soldering....... :praise2: did I say ........I.........like........ :Love:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on June 20, 2019, 05:45:41 AM
Excellent work on the boiler Chris!  Very exciting that it worked first time!  That's got to feel pretty good :)  :ThumbsUp:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jo on June 20, 2019, 08:41:14 AM
 8) Nice to see it passed its pressure test.

To add to your advice Chris: Never do the static pressure test in direct sun light  :hellno: The sun's heating effect can increase the  pressure in the boiler over straining it and ruining the boiler :paranoia:

Jo
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: paulc1 on June 20, 2019, 08:50:21 AM
Crikey, this build is truly amazing I crammed the whole thread and really enjoyed your journal, also love the subs. fantastic work!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Firebird on June 20, 2019, 10:11:11 AM
Hi Chris

Great news on your boiler  :ThumbsUp:

My conway boiler had several leaks and re solders and so did Julians Simplex boiler. With each re heat it seemed to take longer to get the boiler up to soldering temperature, maybe silver solder needs more heat to re melt??

I'll look out for a sievert I think

Anyway great work

Cheers

Rich
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: MJM460 on June 20, 2019, 12:28:03 PM
Hi Chris, great to see a successful pressure test, another important milestone reached.  Congratulations.

It has been a great tutorial on boiler building, thanks for taking the time to write it up in such detail.

MJM460
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on June 20, 2019, 12:59:20 PM
Chris--Thank you for the explanation of the fire tubes.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 20, 2019, 01:14:52 PM
Thanks all, still grinning at the boiler here...!   :cheers:

Rich, the solder does take a bit more to re-melt the second/third time around, I think the alloy mix changes a bit with the copper or something like that.
For those in the US looking for Sievert, this is where I got mine several years ago.

https://www.bestmaterials.com/SearchResult.aspx?KeyWords=sievert
Sievert does make several different lines of torches, not all interchange parts, so I would recommend looking at their catalog/website first:
https://www.sievert.se/products/
It looks like their product line/numbers have changed since I bought mine, not unusual for any manufacturer...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on June 20, 2019, 02:42:58 PM
Hi Chris, glad to hear the grins are happening re the boiler. Pics looked great.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Re Sievert - I had a quote in 2017 from Sievert USA for a 3488-47 torch, neck tube, and 4 sizes of burners small to big, for a job in industry. With Cdn HST tax , delivery, and the dollar exchange at the time, it was close to $750.  :o The firm's owner could not afford that. I went back to using my ancient oxy acetylene torch for the silver soldering, and got along fine with it as always, but for big jobs the heat is too localized. I later found a European-made torch and burner set, similar to older torch models from Sievert, at a firm here in Canada for a fraction of the price on the Sievert quote, bought one, and it works well. However I bought it through a business, they do not sell to private individuals. Just goes to show though that there are lower priced options , with similar capability to Sievert , available with some digging.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 20, 2019, 05:24:26 PM
With the boiler well in hand, time to hold it up - starting in on the front support frame, which on the real machine is a big casting that holds the smokebox end of the boiler up, straddling the middle of the A-frame backstay bars. Laid it out on a chunk of brass left over from the track frames, and chain-drilled around the openings:
(https://i.postimg.cc/90R7nMcZ/IMG-5266.jpg)
That made the initial milling go faster - the center is cut all the way through as is the top arms, the areas around the center will only be taken partway through to leave a center flange.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZY23yrLc/IMG-5268.jpg)
Then set it up on the roatary table, with the top arc centered on the center of the rotary table. Took a series of cuts to remove the upper part of the bar:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Gm1yXdVT/IMG-5269.jpg)
and trimmed that till it fit the boiler closely:

(https://i.postimg.cc/y8XS52CQ/IMG-5271.jpg)
Then started taking down the flange areas - the bar is 1/2" thick, cutting .200" in to leave the .100 flange. The rotary table was handy to do the angled sections too, rotated till they were lined up with the axis of the mill table.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CL88CzPV/IMG-5275.jpg)
One side done, will turn it over and do the flanges on the other side next, then trim away the sides - they are useful for holding it till then.
(https://i.postimg.cc/PJgwsjqc/IMG-5276.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on June 20, 2019, 06:32:20 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 20, 2019, 07:47:32 PM
After lunch (uuurrpp) got the other side of the support stand milled in, then started taking off the outer pieces:
(https://i.postimg.cc/t70812kf/IMG-5277.jpg)
and here it is, with a offcut of the boiler shell, ready to drill the mounting holes to hold it to the boiler and to the brace in the main frame:

(https://i.postimg.cc/pT6wv2FP/IMG-5278.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on June 20, 2019, 08:34:17 PM
Hello Chris,

Me too,  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :NotWorthy:

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on June 20, 2019, 10:12:09 PM
Dog that stand looks outstanding, but hey bud a lot of metal wasted. With your fabrication skills you could of fabed one up......just saying. As always love your work Chris..... :ThumbsUp:



 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 21, 2019, 12:54:27 AM
Dog that stand looks outstanding, but hey bud a lot of metal wasted. With your fabrication skills you could of fabed one up......just saying. As always love your work Chris..... :ThumbsUp:



 :cheers:
Don
I dont look at it as metal wasted, its an offcut from the scrap bin that got used!   ::)     :Lol:
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Art K on June 21, 2019, 04:13:42 AM
Great job on the boiler, sounds like the voice of experience. One down two to go.
Art
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 21, 2019, 01:08:17 PM
Great job o  the boiler, sounds like the voice of experience. One down two to go.
Art
Thanks Art!


Two what to go? Not building two more Marions!   :o
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on June 21, 2019, 02:39:11 PM
Looks like you have a boiler, I'll dance with you ! :pinkelephant: :pinkelephant: :cartwheel: :pinkelephant:

Smooth sailing ahead!  Great job.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 21, 2019, 03:26:08 PM
Looks like you have a boiler, I'll dance with you ! :pinkelephant: :pinkelephant: :cartwheel: :pinkelephant:

Smooth sailing ahead!  Great job.


 :cheers:


And sailing tomorrow, next rc sub run...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 21, 2019, 05:55:48 PM
Got the front end stand for the boiler painted this morning, and started in on the firebox shell, which is just some copper sheet cut/bent to shape, drilled and riveted at the corners. Still need to make the bottom flange to attach it to the floor with, and a strap to go over the boiler shell to hold them together.
(https://i.postimg.cc/dDP9CgKr/IMG-5285.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on June 21, 2019, 06:33:09 PM
Looks great Chris, gotta be the fastest boiler build I've seen.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

I know the false firebox (firebag, maybe?)  :Lol:  and single flue construction helped, but still, very quick.  :whoohoo:  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on June 21, 2019, 09:31:36 PM
Ok Dog!! You do know your just putting people to shame here bud. I mean really get some sleep man are you trying to break a worlds record here? Now that’s looks awesome I have to say and your moving at an  incredible rate so, what’s the secret? You double up on the elves Dog?  :lolb:

 :popcornsmall:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on June 21, 2019, 10:43:43 PM
I think he 3D printed extra sets of arms for a few of them!  :Lol:

I'm looking forward to seeing what Chris does on the smokebox doors. ('Smokebox' sounds so much better than 'butanefumebox'). As I recall they had some nice raised lettering in the Marion castings in Chris' photos. I think the etching gear may get used again. Enjoying this thread a lot!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 22, 2019, 12:57:33 AM
I am amazed at how much quicker this boiler went than any before, all just fell into place without needing two weeks of leak chasing. Maybe the elves were working on it at night, or they bought one online... Gotta check that credit card statement...


This evening got the floor plate in, and added dummy staybolts to the firebox sides. Need to make a firebox door, then will start the smokebox door assembly. It does have a bunch of lettering on the doors, but I made those a few weeks ago when I made the ones for the engines, will rivet them to the doors. The doors are an odd shape, since they have to clear the backstay.


 :cheers:

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 23, 2019, 01:05:03 AM
No new work on the Marion today, was off at the pond all day with the RC submarine group, absolutely perfect weather. Last night I did get the rest of the rivets in the firebox, and added rows of dummy staybolt ends too (copper roofing nail heads riveted in). Still need to make up a firebox door for it. Here it is set in place on the model. There are four screws out the bottom of the firebox floor plate that will get simple bars bolted on to hold the firebox to the cab floor plates (it is sitting over a large hole in the floor, check earlier pictures for that). There will be a ash chute under the floor that will hang from those screws as well. Painted the front boiler stand as well.

(https://i.postimg.cc/13HjysLL/IMG-5287.jpg)

So, still to go on the boiler:
- smokebox door assembly- firebox door- firebox floor clamps and ash chute under the floor
- strap over top of the boiler to hold it to the firebox
- insulation wrap around the boiler shell and thin sheet wrap around the insulation
- install the fittings
- sight glass, pressure gauge, valves, piping to engines
- levers behind boiler for ash grates (dummy)
- install burner/butane tank- make the two water tanks that sit either side of the boiler
- anything else I am forgetting at the moment!
And yes, having the boiler in place is definitely putting the center of mass of the model back farther like it should be, to counterbalance the boom/bucket assembly on the front.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: fumopuc on June 23, 2019, 07:33:05 AM
Hi Chris, it is looking great. This model will be an absolute eye catcher at every show.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 23, 2019, 07:36:02 PM
Hi Chris, it is looking great. This model will be an absolute eye catcher at every show.
Thanks Achim!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 23, 2019, 08:53:48 PM
Made up a paper pattern for the ash chute which goes underneath the firebox and deflects the ash back away from the rear track support, when happy with that cut it out of copper:
(https://i.postimg.cc/bvF9XjxH/IMG-5292.jpg)
and bent up to shape in the vise - it is held in place by the screws I added to the bottom of the firebox, which will also be used to hold it all to the floor plates:
(https://i.postimg.cc/7LLnQL2Z/IMG-5293.jpg)
Just gave that a spritz of paint....



Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Art K on June 24, 2019, 02:23:04 AM
Chris,
I can see it now, that ash chute is going to work extra hard with those butane ashes. :ROFL:
Art
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 24, 2019, 02:36:00 AM
Chris,
I can see it now, that ash chute is going to work extra hard with those butane ashes. :ROFL:
Art
I am more worried about it clogging up with empty bottles of Elf Pale Ale...  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 24, 2019, 09:36:06 PM
Few more bits on the firebox assembly, added some bars to the screws on the bottom that will clamp the firebox to the floor when the nuts are tightened down. The bars can slip through the opening in the floor from one side, and far enough over the other way to get the second end down, then back for tightening.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZYcjRTRx/IMG-5296.jpg)
A view from the bottom showing the end of the chute down below the frames:
(https://i.postimg.cc/HnBtPtKh/IMG-5295.jpg)
Also added a strap over the top to hold the boiler shell in place. The front end of the boiler has screws through the front stand as well.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mgcS8CSm/IMG-5297.jpg)
Then milled up the firebox door, on the end of a chunk of round bar:
(https://i.postimg.cc/TYN9VCny/IMG-5298.jpg)
Parted off on the bandsaw and trimmed on the sander, then riveted to the firebox and painted:
(https://i.postimg.cc/rwvNbsnM/IMG-5307.jpg)
Now on to the smokebox door frame. It is very different from a locomotive one, has a frame with a sheet across the top and a bump up in the bottom, leaving two swinging doors that will clear the piping and backstay. Started with a disc of brass sawn from a larger sheet, and drilled/mounted on a center arbor to mill the rim to the right size. Added three screw blocks that will take screws through the end of the smokebox shell, milled them to fit the inside of the boiler shell, also notched the sheet to fit the shell as well. Then started cutting the inside edges out:
(https://i.postimg.cc/hGT1qn6x/IMG-5302.jpg)
Straight cuts up the sides where the doors will hinge and across the bottom for the bump up, that shape will be hand filed to shape later:
(https://i.postimg.cc/MTY0vDWp/IMG-5303.jpg)
and cuts across the top of the opening - could not go all the way across due to the arbor, will set that up next:
(https://i.postimg.cc/3Jx10P05/IMG-5304.jpg)
It does look like a shop-made Halloween pumpkin, or a robot face...
(https://i.postimg.cc/W3V6NKcy/IMG-5306.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on June 24, 2019, 10:04:18 PM
Sort of an Asian looking jack-o-lantern! Great progress Chris.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Like the E.P.A. bottle exit chute. The good news is that the tracks will make short work of any piles of hundreds of bottles...... :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 24, 2019, 11:03:23 PM
Sort of an Asian looking jack-o-lantern! Great progress Chris.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Like the E.P.A. bottle exit chute. The good news is that the tracks will make short work of any piles of hundreds of bottles...... :Lol:
Hmmm... room in the firebox to put the vending machine, time to make some money back from the elves...!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 24, 2019, 11:09:11 PM
Flipped the panel over, and recessed the inside slightly to form the rim around the edges:
(https://i.postimg.cc/wjg1BsWw/IMG-5308.jpg)
Then set up the mini vise in its bigger brother to trim the last edge on the opening:
(https://i.postimg.cc/BnpXPQk4/IMG-5309.jpg)
Here is what it will look like in place - the screw heads will be trimmed down thinner:
(https://i.postimg.cc/KYY4PhhL/IMG-5310.jpg)
And the other day I was asked by CNR about the lettering on the boiler front - here are the two lines of text that will go on the upper panel, they were made back when I did the other plates a little while back.

(https://i.postimg.cc/yNrxnp7G/IMG-5312.jpg)
They will be riveted in place, as will some other number plates that go on the doors, which will be made next...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Johnmcc69 on June 25, 2019, 02:28:27 AM
Fantastic work all the way around Chris! Really like the boiler & fab work.

 Learning a lot!

 John
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on June 25, 2019, 02:33:04 AM
Wow Dog! You don’t mess around that’s awesome....... :praise2:




 :popcornsmall:
Don







Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on June 25, 2019, 12:15:48 PM
Hi Chris,

I haven't commented for some time (been a bit busy with life and other stuff) but I have been getting my daily fix of model engineering by checking out your build, which goes some way to making up for my own lack of 'shop time . . . and you seem to have been getting on quite well without my help  :LittleDevil:

Seriously, I can hardly believe your rate of progress, especially considering the level of detail and accuracy involved. This has truly been a masterclass in machining and fabrication . . . not to mention all the jig-making and setting-up skills  :praise2: :praise2: :praise2:

Can't wait to see the thing running in all its glory  :cartwheel:

Mike.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 25, 2019, 01:24:04 PM
Thanks guys, great to have you along for the journey on this build! Its looking like it will be taking a trip down the road to LeRoy sometime in August to visit with its big brother by the quarry! Started talking with the historical society head again, and that looks like it will work out with all the other summer activities we both have.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on June 25, 2019, 01:42:17 PM
Hello Chris,

I agree 100% with what and how @Famboy stated about your work. That Boiler and all of it's attachments are just plain ole beautiful. I cannot wait to see some smoke coming out of the stack and the sounds emitting from all those mechanical features.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 25, 2019, 09:36:44 PM
More on the smokebox assembly, started in on the doors by recessing the centers with the two doors still attached in a larger piece of sheet stock:
(https://i.postimg.cc/3NpBQGq7/IMG-5313.jpg)
then going around the edges to trim then mostly to shape, to be followed by cleanup on the belt sander after they are cut apart.
(https://i.postimg.cc/WbL869D4/IMG-5314.jpg)
Before cutting them apart, drilled/tapped some 1-72 holes in the perimeter for the hinges and the steel heat shields that will be on the inside of the doors.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3rD9GMx6/IMG-5315.jpg)
Some sanding on the edges, and attached the posts for the hinges. The posts are held on with screws for the silver soldering step, then the screw heads will be filed off. The screws holding the blocks on the main ring were replaced with some countersunk head brass screws, sunk in just a little so the heads could be filed off.

(https://i.postimg.cc/CLGNvjDs/IMG-5316.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on June 26, 2019, 12:13:24 AM
I think a lot hinges on the items in that last photo! Great work Chris, and I enjoyed the preview of the name plates in the previous photos.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 26, 2019, 12:50:13 AM
I think a lot hinges on the items in that last photo! Great work Chris, and I enjoyed the preview of the name plates in the previous photos.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

 :cheers:
Pun Alert!!
:cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 26, 2019, 05:59:08 PM
This morning saw the hinge posts silver soldered onto the smokebox front plate, and the hinge posts on the doors drilled and trimmed to length:
(https://i.postimg.cc/tR3GMtfr/IMG-5320.jpg)
Took a little filing on the edges to get them to open/close fully, but working well now.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zvFmH8Km/IMG-5319.jpg)
Took a little filing on the edges to get them to open/close fully, but working well now. Next step is to install the name/number plates, and make the steel heat shields that go on the inside of the plate and doors, simple plates on little stand-offs. Then will drill/tap the mounting holes through the boiler shell.


Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on June 26, 2019, 07:30:51 PM
The 'box doors look great Chris!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on June 27, 2019, 06:07:22 AM
The Firebox doors and the Smokebox doors look great, Chris!

So, if I'm understanding this right, the Smokebox doors are operational (they open and close).  But the Firebox doors are just for looks because you're using a propane burner (or something like that?).   Is this right?

Love following your builds, Chris!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 27, 2019, 02:16:35 PM
The Firebox doors and the Smokebox doors look great, Chris!

So, if I'm understanding this right, the Smokebox doors are operational (they open and close).  But the Firebox doors are just for looks because you're using a propane burner (or something like that?).   Is this right?

Love following your builds, Chris!
Kim
The doors need to open to allow access to the firetube to light the burner. With the butane, easiest way is to crack open the valve and use a sparker or long lighter at the end of the tube, the flame will snap back to the burner. Same thing was done on the Lombard model, the whole firebox end hinged open. When closed, the doors redirect the hot gasses up the stack. 


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 27, 2019, 07:16:00 PM
Getting close to finishing the boiler parts - got the name/number plates riveted on with some 1mm rivets, and cut out/drilled/tapped for the inner steel heat shield pieces, which are some thin stainless sheet stock I found at the local hobby shop.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sgb49jdv/IMG-5322.jpg)
Inside the firetube I am taking the advice from Rod and putting in a twisted piece of stainless to act as a turbulence generator to get the hot gasses to flow along the tube sides. I've never tried this before, but he says that it will increase the efficiency, sounds like it should work out.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1z6cvksM/IMG-5324.jpg)
Here is the smokebox front wall/doors installed, with the lettering on:
(https://i.postimg.cc/cHS72FJW/IMG-5325.jpg)
Doors open to show the heat shields in place, offset from the brass with nuts to leave an air gap. This is not just for the model, the real one has the same thing on it.

(https://i.postimg.cc/tTNdjF1x/IMG-5326.jpg)
I think the only bit left is the adapter ring for the burner, which is made for a 28mm OD tube, my firetube is 1-1/4" so it needs a little step-down ring to make it fit. Then I can give the boiler a coat of paint (I am using automotive ceramic engine paint so it can take the heat) and get things assembled and pressure check the joints to the fittings.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Johnmcc69 on June 27, 2019, 08:52:42 PM
Excellent!!
 :popcorn: :ThumbsUp:

 John
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on June 27, 2019, 09:13:26 PM
Excellent work Dog and I do hope that it’s camera delusion that makes the tags look slanted...... :ThumbsUp:



 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 28, 2019, 01:33:40 AM
Excellent work Dog and I do hope that it’s camera delusion that makes the tags look slanted...... :ThumbsUp:



 :cheers:
Don
Yup, small camera close up, bit of distortion plus shadows on the plates.


Got a coat of paint on this evening, pics tomorrow...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 28, 2019, 04:02:44 PM
This morning made up the little adapter ring for the burner, very slight difference in the diameters but just enough that the burner would not fit over the firetube without it.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1tQGJNwf/IMG-5328.jpg)
Burner slipped into place:
(https://i.postimg.cc/C1sjtLsJ/IMG-5331.jpg)
Put thread sealant on the fittings, got the valves/sight glass installed, and put a fitting on the blow-down bushing to hook up the compressor to check for leaks. Another 1/4 turn on the sight glass lower compression nut (there is rubber tubing around the end of the glass to act as packing) and the one leak went away. The blowdown valve is on order from Clevedon Steam, his CNC guy had a breakdown on his lathe so it will be another week or two till that is in. I will put a hose barb on the output of the blowdown valve, makes a handy place to hook up tubing for static display running on compressed air.
(https://i.postimg.cc/7hPgy8B4/IMG-5333.jpg)
Need to make the elbows and short pipes to hook the stop valve on the steam dome up to the piping on the model, then I can install the boiler into the model. After that, it is on to the steering engine, which is the last subassembly for this build! Looks like it will be a bit under my original two year guesstimate, not bad for such a large model. I have ordered a couple 3D printed parts for the steering engine, like I did for the slew/crowd engines, makes it easier to keep track of directions and reference points for such complex shapes. This time I went with a company called Jawstech, about 1/3 the price for small stuff as Shapeways, just not as many choices of materials. The crankshaft was only about $2.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on June 28, 2019, 05:18:01 PM
Hello Chris,

That Boiler sure is looking good, beautiful work on your part.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on June 29, 2019, 11:07:58 AM
Hi Chris,
 Looking good! Your lads are keeping up max output! Guessing while they are working you are slaving away making cookies!
On the sightglass seal... I used orings, I put several on a mandrel, that held them firm but not stretched, & then turned them flat on the outside, had to do this so they fitted in the nuts. I’ve used the same ones now for years, just a thought.


Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 29, 2019, 01:50:28 PM
Hi Chris,
 Looking good! Your lads are keeping up max output! Guessing while they are working you are slaving away making cookies!
On the sightglass seal... I used orings, I put several on a mandrel, that held them firm but not stretched, & then turned them flat on the outside, had to do this so they fitted in the nuts. I’ve used the same ones now for years, just a thought.


Cheers Kerrin
Good to know. I am using the tubing that came with the sight glass assembly, some sort of rubber, not sure which. Its Its er than viton, more like silcone. What kind of o ring did you use,?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 29, 2019, 09:55:58 PM
The boiler parts are all assembled into the model (still have some piping bits to make to connect it up):
(https://i.postimg.cc/SsgsNZqc/IMG-5338.jpg)
Here is why the smokebox doors have the odd little bump at the bottom - needs it to clear the backstay:
(https://i.postimg.cc/fbhkHtBS/IMG-5337.jpg)
Couple fun shots of the inside, with the ceiling on:
(https://i.postimg.cc/pTWrvNN2/IMG-5340.jpg)
Shows how crowded it is for the crew
(https://i.postimg.cc/W46zxNHW/IMG-5341.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on June 29, 2019, 11:11:36 PM
Hi Chris,
The twisted stainless steel strips are called turbulators. They are used to break up the boundary air flow in tubes. I Boilers due to a reaction with the combustion gasses and wear from being removed and reinserted the edges develop quite a sharp edge and will slice through leather gloves (and skin) quite easily. They can be a real pain to remove and reinstall as they tend to get brittle with age and sometime break in a tube, and have to be removed.
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 29, 2019, 11:13:41 PM
Hi Chris,
The twisted stainless steel strips are called turbulators. They are used to break up the boundary air flow in tubes. I Boilers due to a reaction with the combustion gasses and wear from being removed and reinserted the edges develop quite a sharp edge and will slice through leather gloves (and skin) quite easily. They can be a real pain to remove and reinstall as they tend to get brittle with age and sometime break in a tube, and have to be removed.
Gerald.
I didn't know that they had a official name, sounds like a fairly common device. Add that one to my dictionary!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on June 30, 2019, 12:07:13 AM
Looking great Chris! top notch work.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Working inside the house of the real shovel would have been mighty hot for the crew.

The elf who made the tanks - is his nickname "Woody" by any chance?  :naughty:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 30, 2019, 12:27:56 AM
Looking great Chris! top notch work.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Working inside the house of the real shovel would have been mighty hot for the crew.

The elf who made the tanks - is his nickname "Woody" by any chance?  :naughty:
Woody Woodpecker as an Elf?

Nah, never!     :Lol:
(https://i.postimg.cc/XJN2CgBV/woody.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on June 30, 2019, 12:57:30 AM
Chris......from your studies, readings and early photo images

1. were any of the steam pipes in the cab lagged?....if so will you replicate these?.............
2. were the steam pipes on the boom outside and exposed to the elements lagged, then covered with tin screwed sheathing over the [asbestos] lagging?

Steam @ 100 PSI is pretty  :Mad: or 337 degrees F [from the tables]

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 30, 2019, 01:22:44 AM
Chris......from your studies, readings and early photo images

1. were any of the steam pipes in the cab lagged?....if so will you replicate these?.............
2. were the steam pipes on the boom outside and exposed to the elements lagged, then covered with tin screwed sheathing over the [asbestos] lagging?

Steam @ 100 PSI is pretty  :Mad: or 337 degrees F [from the tables]

Derek
They ran these at 125 to 150psi, so even higher temps...

I've been trying to find out about that (though have not spent much time digging yet). On the machine in LeRoy, there is no lagging on any pipes or the boiler, and I dont see any sign of it being there before. There is no insulation on the boiler even, let alone the pipes, which does seem odd to me, given that in this part of the country it gets quite cold in the winter, and down in a quarry pit that would be even colder. The cab would prevent direct rainwater/snow from landing on the boiler and inside pipes, but the outside pipes were exposed up on the boom.
Given that it was abandoned in the field in 1949, that was before asbestos concerns so the quarry owners would not have been required to remove that type of insulation.
The catalogs I have describe the boiler in detail, but do not mention any insulation, and their pictures dont show any.
There is a steam powered dredge down the Thruway from here, that belongs to the state. It is the same mechanism as a steam shovel, just mounted in a barge. I tried getting access to that, but when I worked my way up to the head of the department it is controlled by (it is in drydock now), he said that even THEY dont go inside due to all the asbestos insulation on pipes and decaying off, lots of it in dust form, so that visit was promptly dropped for safety reasons. Unsure if the canal authority added the insulation when they built the dredge, or if it came that way.
Bottom line: I dont know what insulation, if any, was there when it was in use. The photos from the period are always from the outside, usually at a distance, so these details dont show. I have a DVD from the HCEA with early Marion shovel footage, in those you can see the pipes out the cab to the main boom for the crowd engine, and those pipes appear to be bare, you can see the elbows and pipes clearly, no bulky wraps on anything. Now, those could have been in warm climates? The pipes look to be normal iron pipes and elbows, not double-walled or anything fancy. The one that they cut to tap in a compressor to drive it out of the quarry shows that clearly. 

I dont know enough about locomotive general practice, but I am sure there are those here who are, maybe they can chime in on this?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on June 30, 2019, 02:51:17 AM
If the owners weren't concerned about the steam usage efficiency, the pipes probably weren't insulated.  After all, what did a ton of coal cost pre-1949?  Just throw on another shovel of coal to keep the boiler hot and make sure it had plenty of water.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on June 30, 2019, 02:54:24 AM
Chris....without telling you how to eat your dinner...... :P ......the Burn Centre Care says

'General data about burns. A burn is damage to your skin caused by a temperature as low as 44 degrees Celsius (109.4 Fahrenheit) for a long time. A high temperature (more than 80 degrees Celsius) can cause more severe burns in a very short period of time (less than a second').

From this, and the physical placement of the steam pipes in the cabin, together with the areas that the operators would negotiate....it is more than a better than fair chance that all of the steam pipes in the cabin would have been lagged ....with the asbestos cladding of the day, and possibly over wrapped with a thin tin plate sheathing

So also considering the Engineers fro the Marion Company were experienced with steam....again more than a fair probability that all of the external steam pipes were also lagged ....principally to minimize condensation etc

Derek

PS....how much did coal cost in 1949?...... :facepalm: the following table confirms the real cost for coal in annualized terms in 1949 was more expensive at US$36.14/ton, where as the same real cost in annualized terms for 2011 was less expensive at US$32.56/ton

https://www.eia.gov/totalenergy/data/annual/showtext.php?t=ptb0709

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on June 30, 2019, 03:33:16 AM
The operators at the front were on the other side of the front cab wall from any engines, and those engines had thier steam pipes at the back ends. The boiler engineer and fireman were behind the boiler, no pipes there, just the backhead. Next to the engines were the doors, where they put scaffolding to stand on outside to clear the machines, so burns were less an issue.
The price of coal in the 40s was probably part of the reason the shovel was retired in favor of diesel. It was more available and cheaper in 1906 when it was built, probably.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on June 30, 2019, 09:29:57 AM
Hi Chris,
 Oh those shots of the inside look great! You better try & limit the elves cookie consumption, hot pipes on cookie filled belly’s wouldn’t be fun!  :lolb:

Right I used standard black orings, last time I checked them they were fine...... I guess I better have a look as it’s been awhile since last check!

 Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 01, 2019, 12:20:06 AM
Got the rest of the pipe connections made to the boiler today, also made up the ash grate dump handles that sit behind the boiler:
(https://i.postimg.cc/pXyZ1GPg/IMG-5344.jpg)
With the boiler wrapping up, time to start prepping for the steering engine. It will be made from 1144 stressproof steel like the crowd/slew engines were.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 01, 2019, 08:04:26 PM
This morning I was doing some work on the display/transport base for the Marion when the 3D printed version of the steering engine arrived that I had ordered from Jawstech, figuring that it would be handy to have a reference while machining the real one out of steel.

Oh, my, but this is a small engine! It is 30% smaller than the crowd/slew engines, with the same basic design, sitting on a vertical stand so it can stand in one of the doorways behind the boiler. Here it is for comparison to the crowd engine:

(https://i.postimg.cc/YqdCbhZb/IMG-5345.jpg)
With a ruler for size:
(https://i.postimg.cc/7ZcYrjxz/IMG-5346.jpg)
Cute little thing:
(https://i.postimg.cc/QdVxPjrs/IMG-5347.jpg)
This is going to be a very interesting build - I may need to hire in George Britnell for this one. Double-acting slide valve engine with internal reversing valve and double-layer d-valves, all the palm of a hand...  Think I may dub this one the MarionTiny!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on July 01, 2019, 09:08:18 PM
Interesting Dog the size but hey bud not a big step since you have handled everything with ease so far. And did I say .........I.............like............ :Love:




 :drinking-41:
Don


Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 90LX_Notch on July 01, 2019, 10:00:38 PM
You can do it Chris.  You have the right machines for going smaller.

FWIW: Small is a relative term. 

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on July 02, 2019, 07:22:14 AM
Oh now that is cute!

It’s looking like the next generation elves have got a starter project! I’m sure the head elf will help to keep them on the right track!
Looking forward to the build...... :popcorn: :popcorn:

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: RonGinger on July 02, 2019, 12:48:18 PM
I don't want to steer you off into a new track, but at this point I would have to fire the boiler and run all that is finished. Steering would be nice, but to watch all the rest of that machine work will be great. It would take to much discipline to keep me building when that close to a major run.  :mischief:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 02, 2019, 01:34:21 PM
I don't want to steer you off into a new track, but at this point I would have to fire the boiler and run all that is finished. Steering would be nice, but to watch all the rest of that machine work will be great. It would take to much discipline to keep me building when that close to a major run.  :mischief:


I can (and do) play with it off the compressor at this point. Running the boiler means taking it outside, and I am still making the base for it. The model is too big, bulky, and heavy to just tuck it under my arm and walk through doorways... The display base will have bolt on handles and frames to lock around the tracks, but will still require two people to move. So, that is helping rein in the desire to run right away!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 02, 2019, 01:40:20 PM
Oh now that is cute!

It’s looking like the next generation elves have got a starter project! I’m sure the head elf will help to keep them on the right track!
Looking forward to the build...... :popcorn: :popcorn:

Cheers Kerrin


The elves have been studying the printed mockups, and have put in a design change request, to thicken the crank webs a bit. I agree with them, seeing it in printed form, the webs are too thin and may flex, so I will tweak the design to thicken them, which will require widening the crank bay on thw base the same amount. Also, the pockets that were broached in on the larger engines will be milled through from the outside and covered with thin sheet on this one, same end result in shape.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 02, 2019, 01:42:26 PM
You can do it Chris.  You have the right machines for going smaller.

FWIW: Small is a relative term. 

-Bob
Thanks Bob, the Sherline is a good fit for this one, if not Bill can help with that nice little lathe he got last year...!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 90LX_Notch on July 02, 2019, 03:03:41 PM
One bit of advice- use quality sharp tools if you are going really small.  Sharp equals less pressure on a dainty tool which in turn helps reduce breakage.  Clear chips regularly.  Make sure tools are running true in the spindle of the mill.

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 02, 2019, 03:13:01 PM
One bit of advice- use quality sharp tools if you are going really small.  Sharp equals less pressure on a dainty tool which in turn helps reduce breakage.  Clear chips regularly.  Make sure tools are running true in the spindle of the mill.

-Bob
Good tip - most if not all of the crankshaft will be done with the parting tool with the part between centers, will need to sharpen that frequently especially. Things like the valve ports will need to be done with the micro (dental bur type) cutters, can't sharpen those but they come in packs of 5 so will use fresh ones.

Thanks!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 02, 2019, 03:16:54 PM
Just finished making the changes to thicken the crank webs up a bit, went to update the plans and saw that I had never gotten around to adding all the dimensions to those sheets.... So, I know what I am doing today...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on July 02, 2019, 04:32:56 PM
Hi Chris, I wondered whether the broach tool would be adaptable to the smaller engine as soon as I saw your 3D printed model pic. Through the side on the smaller one will likely be far less involved. Good luck with the detail dimensions today. Hope the elves don't get miffed about the thicker webs. Must be an eye-straining job sharpening all those tiny cold chisels every day while they hand carve out a crank from solid .... :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 02, 2019, 05:20:12 PM
Hi Chris, I wondered whether the broach tool would be adaptable to the smaller engine as soon as I saw your 3D printed model pic. Through the side on the smaller one will likely be far less involved. Good luck with the detail dimensions today. Hope the elves don't get miffed about the thicker webs. Must be an eye-straining job sharpening all those tiny cold chisels every day while they hand carve out a crank from solid .... :Lol:
The side of the recess is so thin that it will be quicker to just cut through and cover it with some shim stock, though the broach setup would work as well.
The elves got hold of my credit card and started sending the chisels out to Sharpen-While-U-Wait till I saw the next bill....   :hellno:   Lazy little swarf-heads!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on July 02, 2019, 09:02:47 PM
You might want to check their time-sheets.  I'll bet they REALLY took the sharpening firm' name andwere "on the clock" while they waited for the chisels to be sharpened.  If they were, be sure you get the union steward involved - don't want them to file any grievances on you.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 02, 2019, 09:07:22 PM
You might want to check their time-sheets.  I'll bet they REALLY took the sharpening firm' name andwere "on the clock" while they waited for the chisels to be sharpened.  If they were, be sure you get the union steward involved - don't want them to file any grievances on you.

Don
Those....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on July 02, 2019, 10:07:19 PM
Hi Chris, I wondered whether the broach tool would be adaptable to the smaller engine as soon as I saw your 3D printed model pic. Through the side on the smaller one will likely be far less involved. Good luck with the detail dimensions today. Hope the elves don't get miffed about the thicker webs. Must be an eye-straining job sharpening all those tiny cold chisels every day while they hand carve out a crank from solid .... :Lol:
The side of the recess is so thin that it will be quicker to just cut through and cover it with some shim stock, though the broach setup would work as well.
The elves got hold of my credit card and started sending the chisels out to Sharpen-While-U-Wait till I saw the next bill....   :hellno:   Lazy little swarf-heads!   :Lol:

Chris you have big problems with your Elves, while having coffee and cookies with the Big Guy he warned me about "Sharpen-While-U-Wait " , It is a gambling joint.  "Sharpem" is an old elfin gambling game played with cards (two decks), eight sided dice (3 sets in 3 colours) and knuckle bones. I tried to get my Elves to show me and we played the kids version (no knives or hammers allowed), within 20 minute I owed them $45 each (three players), I quit then and checked my credit cards.
Gerald.
PS they actually do sharpen tools while they play, but they are expensive, they bill you for the Band-Aids used.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on July 02, 2019, 10:25:14 PM
Are you SURE some of your shop elves haven't devolved into shop Gnomes?

Better watch your back, and maybe even start packin' some heat when you go in the shop - you never can tell.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 02, 2019, 10:56:38 PM
Love to be there when someone new to the site gets to these kinds of posts...  :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on July 03, 2019, 12:48:00 AM
When I first got onto this site a flak jacket and sidearm was not yet required...... :Lol:

Maybe things were under control with the elves a bit better in egg nog season with the rum ration. Now they are into the summer and the cold ones, how's the pile of empties under the ash chute piling up?  :naughty:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 03, 2019, 01:08:25 AM
When I first got onto this site a flak jacket and sidearm was not yet required...... :Lol:

Maybe things were under control with the elves a bit better in egg nog season with the rum ration. Now they are into the summer and the cold ones, how's the pile of empties under the ash chute piling up?  :naughty:
Fortunately the shop vac cleans up thier empties quickly.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 03, 2019, 04:30:26 PM
All right - on to the last subassembly for the Marion 91 model!   :wine1:

To start the steering engine, cut a length of 1144 stressproof steel bar to the length of the crankshaft, plus 5/8" on each end for holding with the drive dog. Chucked that up in the lathe, trimmed the ends square, and center drilled the middle for the lathe centers. Then moved the part over to a 5/8" collet in the square holder, centered it in the mill with the collet holder indexed at the edge of the vise, and drilled two more holes, on the centers of the crankshaft pins.
(https://i.postimg.cc/tCRCPmFV/IMG-5348.jpg)
Then, keeping track of which way I was turning the collet holder, turned it upside down, checked that the center hole was still centered on the mill head, and drilled the matching holes at that end. Since I had rotated the vise left/right, the hole on the right on the first end is now on the left, so moved that direction for that hole.

(https://i.postimg.cc/NfNGx7xC/IMG-5349.jpg)
That gives me lathe center holes for the main shaft and also the crank pins, but not for the eccentrics - the distance of the eccentric offset is too small, and would overlap the center hole too much. So, the eccentric offsets will have to be done with the 4-jaw chuck, or maybe will trim off the ends and drill a new set of holes.
So, with the first sets of holes in the ends drilled, time to start turning down the crankshaft. First went up to the grinder and sharpened the parting tool on the fine wheel (thanks for the reminder Bob! ), and got the first pin turned in:
(https://i.postimg.cc/W1hNYFWN/IMG-5352.jpg)
The 1144 turns very nicely, with no warpage - nice stuff to work with. Now, I will glue in a spacer for the gap and let that cure up, then I can cut the second pin without worrying about the part flexing at the gap...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Stuart on July 03, 2019, 05:12:34 PM
Now that’s a cunning plan   :old:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 03, 2019, 06:38:37 PM
Thanks Stuart!  All these methods I learned from others, with gratitude!

Second pin turned in, using the second set of holes in the ends:
(https://i.postimg.cc/pLKt9fy6/IMG-5354.jpg)
Glued in another bit of brass in that slot, and setting up for turning the eccentrics. Took a look at redoing the end holes and at the 4-jaw, and it turns out that for this smaller crankshaft the blank fits into the center hole of the 4-jaw with plenty to spare, so I got out the dial indicator and centered the shaft, holding it at one end with the space for the eccentric just outside the jaws. The pin at that end was centered on one of the jaws, and then the two jaws opposite that one were offset to find the center of the eccentric, using the indicator to get the distance correct. Also checked that the center had not moved in the other direction when re-tightening the chuck.
(https://i.postimg.cc/SKqbcnMN/IMG-5355.jpg)
So, the part is all set up and ready to turn in the first eccentric. First, a read/nap out on the porch, and touch up the sharpness on the parting tool in case all those interrupted cuts dulled it any (I leave the fine-grit wheel on the grinder set up with the support at the right distance/angle for this since it needs doing so often - its a slower speed grinder (800 rpm?) so it does not heat up the cutter much, and frequent dunking the tool tip in water keeps even that heat away - coup[le light passes on the wheel and its back sharp).
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 04, 2019, 02:23:48 AM
This evening saw the rest of the bearing surfaces turned to shape, went easier than I expected, partly being smaller there was less time needed per slot than on the other engines. I showed the setup for the eccentric cams in the last post, so this evening cut the first cam:
(https://i.postimg.cc/3xqfpT8R/IMG-5356.jpg)
As with the other engines, I am putting a slot in the center of the cams for a ridge in the center of the followers to, follow. With that one done, carefully turned the part around and gripped the other end, lined it up with the angle from the crank pin, triple checked it about 4 times, and cut that cam as well:
(https://i.postimg.cc/tTQrSNVG/IMG-5357.jpg)
Now, you will notice on this second cam that I did not bother with a spacer like I did for the crank pins - the cams span across the center of the part, so the tailstock center is pushing down the length of the part through both cam positions, so no need for any extra support.
Then set it up with the three-jaw chuck holding one end, and supported by the live center at the other, and turned down the first side shaft to size:
(https://i.postimg.cc/G2FXZTk8/IMG-5358.jpg)
The very end is still tapered a bit, the tool would no go out to the end with the center in place, but that is why I left extra length on the bar at the beginning, that end section will be cut off. Then, you guessed it, turned it around and did the other end...
(https://i.postimg.cc/NFQdYG4N/IMG-5359.jpg)
Pulled the part from the chuck, popped out the brass blocks, and we have a functional but not quite finished crankshaft:
(https://i.postimg.cc/N0rJkzFx/IMG-5360.jpg)
You can see some of the superglue residue in the slots, that will be scraped out, then will set up to cut the crank webs to shape, as well as the center section. Surprised that all that was done in a few hours of shop time, I guess pertice does make prefect.. I mean parktise marks perfeect... Practice Makes Perfect! Yeah, thats it!   And not perfect, but looks good, and measurements are all working out so far.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gbritnell on July 04, 2019, 12:02:52 PM
Excellent crank work Chris. I wonder why more people don't try this method. To me it's easier than fiddling around trying to make a crank from pieces.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on July 04, 2019, 01:41:43 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 04, 2019, 02:36:16 PM
Excellent crank work Chris. I wonder why more people don't try this method. To me it's easier than fiddling around trying to make a crank from pieces.
gbritnell
These cranks are the first time I've done them from one piece, all my others were built up. Couple of reasons in my case, looking back:

- did not know about 1144 stressproof then, other metals had warpage issues- inexperience with the parting tool, especially with interrupted cuts, put me off

- larger cranks on some models would have meant removing a LOT of metal deep into a cut with the parting tool extended out, problem on small lathe. My model of the MEM Corliss twin would have started with a massive piece of steel, lots to remove for a 15" long crankshaft with two throws

- long crank means needing tall clearance on mill to drill end holes - on my twin corliss I could not have done it with my mill.

- just being intimidated by the procedures shown in books for this as a beginner

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 04, 2019, 09:25:52 PM
Too hot to be outside this afternoon, so went back into the shop and milled off the crank webs from the raw round bar. Started by putting a spacer back in one end, and gripped the part in the collet block again to mill off the center section flats.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8Cx5nFCQ/IMG-5361.jpg)
Marked out the diagonals in the center section, where it connects the two crank pins.

(https://i.postimg.cc/L538XN32/IMG-5364.jpg)
Can't get into that area with an end mill without hitting the webs, so took off the bulk with a hacksaw, will finish it off by hand.

(https://i.postimg.cc/4yg3srtW/IMG-5365.jpg)
Then put the rotary table up on the vertical stand, held the part in the 3-jaw vise, and milled off the excess from the crank webs. Did just the one closest to the vise, then turned the part around to do the other end.
(https://i.postimg.cc/L4tXN8Kw/IMG-5366.jpg)
Here is the crankshaft so far, ready for filing to clean up the center sections and smooth off the corners of the webs.
(https://i.postimg.cc/PxZxGtLL/IMG-5369.jpg)
So far so good!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on July 05, 2019, 03:27:06 PM
Excellent Dog!..... :ThumbsUp:




 :popcornsmall:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 05, 2019, 04:26:16 PM
Excellent Dog!..... :ThumbsUp:




 :popcornsmall:
Don
Thanks Don!

Todays photo is titled "Used To Be Round".    :)

Starting the stock prep for the engine block and cylinder for the steering engine. Started with some 1144 stressproof steel round bar (engine block is cut from same stock as the other two engines, but from a horizontal slice this time) and cut the rough shapes out on the bandsaw.
(https://i.postimg.cc/brG4h6gC/IMG-5370.jpg)
Next step is to square up the blocks...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 06, 2019, 05:51:39 PM
Yesterday saw the engine blanks milled square, this morning have bored the holes for the crosshead guides. Drilled all the way through the block for the starter hole, then bored out the first inch to size - that gave the chips a place to go.

(https://i.postimg.cc/BbXZ6GN3/IMG-5381.jpg)
Next will drill/bore the holes for the cylinders...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 06, 2019, 11:17:57 PM
A little boring time  ;)   later, and the cylinder bores are done...
(https://i.postimg.cc/nrGJvyts/IMG-5382.jpg)
Parts so far...
(https://i.postimg.cc/bYxpct2z/IMG-5383.jpg)
Time to whip up an arbor to center the holes on the rotary table for milling the outside curves.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on July 07, 2019, 01:02:29 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 08, 2019, 10:56:30 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Hey, pass some of the popcorn this way too!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 08, 2019, 11:08:55 PM
Catching up on the work from the last two days - after boring out the cylinders and crosshead guides, went back to take a look the order that I did things on the other two engines, and decided to mill out the crankshaft bay. Started with chain drilling to remove the bulk of the metal...
(https://i.postimg.cc/T1Q85ff1/IMG-5384.jpg)
then finished with end mills. This engine has a slightly different bottom end, there is no ledge sticking up like the others had, the stand will span that gap. So, could just mill in from the end, which made it all go quicker.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9QK67x5d/IMG-5386.jpg)
Next sections to shape are the front end of the crosshead guides and the cylinder. It is important to get all the screw holes in the proper places, and they are concentric to the bores, so a mandrel was the next thing made. Turned it so it would fit the crosshead bore, and the cap has steps for the crosshead and the cylinder sizes.
(https://i.postimg.cc/tCSQXqBm/IMG-5387.jpg)
The side of the base had to be nibbled back to clear the arc in the corner of the crankshaft bay.

(https://i.postimg.cc/s2Wt9pst/IMG-5388.jpg)
With the part on the arbor, the offset from the centerline was dialed in and the holes drilled around each bore.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9FFH5RY7/IMG-5390.jpg)
Same pattern on the cylinder. Each time the parts were set on the mandrel, the rotary table was zeroed and the back edge of the part lined up with the axis of the mill table - a straightedge along the part makes a good sighting tool.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ry92PCxT/IMG-5391.jpg)
The cylinder bottom cap plate was also done. Since the bore is so small, there is not much room for screws to hold the piston rod gland in, so I came up with a different way to do it. I made the plate out of two pieces of thin stock, and drilled one side for the o-ring, just deep enough that it gets a little compression onto the rod.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZRhXfCq0/IMG-5393.jpg)
You can see the rings in the plate half sitting in the foreground. The screw holes were tapped and some offcuts of some 1-72 screws that I had hung onto were threaded in to check the alignment of the parts. Note that some of the screws are in the cylinder, some are in the engine block - the top ones come out of the steam chest base, so the nuts have to be on the block side. the rest come out of the guides, so the nuts will be on the other side of the flanges milled into the cylinder edge.

(https://i.postimg.cc/htXFvkw4/IMG-5392.jpg)
All good! The outer cap will be made next, that one will be clamped to the cylinder and both drilled at the same time.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 09, 2019, 04:31:36 PM
Cylinder caps drilled for this morning - got out my handy expanding arbor, turned a new lip on the end to fit the bore, and clamped the cap blank for drilling the first set of holes:
(https://i.postimg.cc/nLQD7sJP/IMG-5394.jpg)
Tapped those holes, swapped to the other bore, screwed the cap in place in the first set of holes, and drilled for the second set:
(https://i.postimg.cc/htYmfLHm/IMG-5395.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on July 09, 2019, 06:37:33 PM
Great work Chris!  :ThumbsUp: Sorry about not passing the popcorn. Here's some for you.... :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Like the expanding arbour. That will come in handy for many jobs.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 09, 2019, 08:04:24 PM
Great work Chris!  :ThumbsUp: Sorry about not passing the popcorn. Here's some for you.... :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Like the expanding arbour. That will come in handy for many jobs.
Those expanders come in very handy, simple to make from some round stock, just thread for a bolt, taper the end of the bolt slightly, and counterdrill the hole to just over the thin end of the taper. Slit the body to let it flex. The end can be turned to fit a bunch of parts till it gets used up. I also have one with a split bushing at the end that I used for the cylinders on the other two engines, actually using that one now to mill the sides of the block, pics later...
And thanks for the popcorn!   :popcornsmall:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 09, 2019, 09:12:19 PM
This afternoon saw the outside rims of the cylinders milled down to size (the center section between the flanges is still to be done) using the expanding arbor to hold the part, could not use the through-arbor since I wanted to do the cap to match:
(https://i.postimg.cc/J4qyDG6R/IMG-5396.jpg)
Second side coming to shape...
(https://i.postimg.cc/Z5sCHXzg/IMG-5399.jpg)
And while the setup is there, did the matching flanges on the engine block, which are stepped (figure they did the step to give a place to pry against when popping the cylinders off the block for servicing them).
(https://i.postimg.cc/rwwDSM3x/IMG-5400.jpg)
Having done all these steps on the other engines earlier is making this go much quicker, very handy to have the writeup to look back through!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Zephyrin on July 10, 2019, 11:03:05 AM
there is something puzzling with the crankshaft, as the web look to be set at 180° apart, and not at 90° as it is usual with a double acting two cylinders engine.
Impressive work with these tiny parts, brave enough to use steel blocks, wow !
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 10, 2019, 02:24:48 PM
there is something puzzling with the crankshaft, as the web look to be set at 180° apart, and not at 90° as it is usual with a double acting two cylinders engine.
Impressive work with these tiny parts, brave enough to use steel blocks, wow !
The cranks actually are at 90 degrees apart on these, its just that the center section between the crank pins directly connect them rather than going back down to the centerline and then back out to the next pin. As you say, this is unusual, but it is how Marion made them on these engines. I dont know why they did that, it would make the crank more unbalanced. These engines just ran in short bursts, but seems like that would still be a concern.

In this picture from the other engines you can see the offset better on the one in the foreground. This was taken before the web outlines were cut in, but it shows how the center section just goes direct between the pins:

(https://i.postimg.cc/CKwvz1yh/IMG-4454.jpg)

There patent drawings of the engine show this kind of crankshaft too, but since the patent is concerned with the valving they dont mention why they made it this way. They did make the engine as compact as possible, and there would not have been much room for a center bearing between two webs, maybe that is part of the reason.

As for using steel, the 1144 is cutting very nicely, as recommended by others here on the forum. It is more stable dimensionally than stress relieved brass is, so well worth the extra cutting effort.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on July 10, 2019, 02:38:30 PM
Hello Chris,

This little engine is a complete project within itself and as usual your work is beautiful. Cannot wait to see it and the others in action :popcorn:

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 10, 2019, 06:39:34 PM
Today started turning loose the trained steel-eating termites on the engine block, nibbling away at the side recesses. The shop elves were supposed to do this with their hand files, but they are off waterskiing on the birdbath..

(https://i.postimg.cc/BbYdX8Fp/IMG-5401.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: fumopuc on July 10, 2019, 07:41:16 PM
Hi Chris, I feel  your pain about  the missing manpower.
Always a pleasure to follow your progress.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 11, 2019, 05:27:23 PM
Thanks Achim!  A hawk showed up and scared the elves back into the shop today, so they, um, I... are getting some more work done on the engine block.   :Lol:
Got the recesses in the side milled down:
(https://i.postimg.cc/7YB5tvtF/IMG-5405.jpg)
and cut in the openings into the crosshead tube so the eccentric followers will be exposed, for the levers that bring the motion up top. On this engine I am trying the alternate approach that I considered on the crowd/slew engines, cutting all the way through from the outside towards the crank bay, rather than broaching the notch from the inside. The remaining metal is super thin anyway, so I will add that back as a panel on the outside.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cLrrVDVr/IMG-5407.jpg)
Part so far, ready for cutting in the top surface to leave the bearing block bases for the valves and throttle.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4xqmZ6gw/IMG-5408.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on July 11, 2019, 08:06:28 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

I thought the elves were scared back to the shop by the RC model submarine surfacing in the birdbath..... :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 11, 2019, 08:13:11 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

I thought the elves were scared back to the shop by the RC model submarine surfacing in the birdbath..... :Lol:
Ooh, gotta try that one!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on July 11, 2019, 08:57:32 PM
I can say one thing about you Dog is that your relentless ............ :ThumbsUp:



 :popcornsmall:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gary.a.ayres on July 11, 2019, 09:56:50 PM
Some kickass machining going on here!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 11, 2019, 10:04:15 PM
Thanks guys!
Got some more done this afternoon, took the top surface down to shape, leaving the bearing bases for the valve and throttle levers:
(https://i.postimg.cc/kXmnfsmP/IMG-5410.jpg)
Part so far, ready to take the crank bearing face down:
(https://i.postimg.cc/bN9qMnyD/IMG-5412.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on July 11, 2019, 10:22:43 PM
That's a REALLY realistic gigantic hand, or that is one great looking really small crosshead guide!  :Lol:

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on July 12, 2019, 12:06:29 AM
I'm voting for the giant hand  :lolb:

Fantastic work Chris.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 12, 2019, 01:29:55 AM
Fe Fi Fo Fum,  that is the crosshead of a ... not.. Englishman!




This one is a lot smaller than the other two, less than 2 inches long. This engine was one of the main factors in deciding the scale of the model, wanted it small but still able to function.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Captain Jerry on July 12, 2019, 05:00:33 PM
In that context, I think the proper spelling is "Englishmum."


That is a good rule. Make the smallest part that you want to make, do-able. It often comes down to the fasteners. You are doing a good job of showing the limits.


Jerry
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 12, 2019, 06:31:29 PM
In that context, I think the proper spelling is "Englishmum."


That is a good rule. Make the smallest part that you want to make, do-able. It often comes down to the fasteners. You are doing a good job of showing the limits.


Jerry
Thanks Jerry! Others could make smaller engines, but this is about as small as I want to go, and this engine has to swivel the rear tracks with a fair bit of weight on them.

Why English'mum' though? Never heard that version.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 12, 2019, 09:24:33 PM
Some more nibbling away at the engine block, sawed off the angle of the crank bearing block, then trimmed the last bit with the end mill:
(https://i.postimg.cc/x18vBxTZ/IMG-5413.jpg)
and trimmed the top of the crank bay back at a slight angle to match the originals:
(https://i.postimg.cc/tCXtNC0p/IMG-5414.jpg)
Now back to shaping the outside of the cylinder block. The center section needs to be taken in to leave the end flanges. Started by taking the bottom flat area down to size:
(https://i.postimg.cc/jdZ6g0KN/IMG-5415.jpg)
then setting up the arbor on the vertical rotary table again to shape in the curved section, ending where it meets the steam chest base:
(https://i.postimg.cc/VkhqwqJk/IMG-5416.jpg)
One side down, one more to go...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on July 12, 2019, 11:55:12 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: and some for you too -  :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 13, 2019, 12:51:44 AM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: and some for you too -  :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Munch... Munch...  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Captain Jerry on July 13, 2019, 04:02:11 AM

Jerry
Thanks Jerry! Others could make smaller engines, but this is about as small as I want to go, and this engine has to swivel the rear tracks with a fair bit of weight on them.

Why English'mum' though? Never heard that version.



Because simple rhymes that don't are a plague on the order of things.  I suppose the giant could have said "Fee fi fo fun" and I would have been as comfortable with it. Bur maybe it is the offence to the ear that makes it memorable.


Jerry
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 13, 2019, 07:45:44 PM
The other side of the cylinder block has been milled to form the flanges, like the first side was. Here is a shot of the parts after a little handwork cleanup, test fitting the screws to hold the parts together. It is next to the crowd engine on the main boom for comparison, the crankshaft is just resting near where it will be, next up will be to make the bearing caps and drill all the holes for the rods.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Z5wG1LpD/IMG-5418.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Johnmcc69 on July 13, 2019, 08:31:26 PM
Beautiful work Chris! Cute little bugger it is...

  :popcorn: :cheers:

 John
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on July 13, 2019, 10:14:56 PM
Damn Dog you make that look to freaking easy...but can I say .......I.........like........ :Love:




 :popcornsmall:
Don



Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on July 13, 2019, 11:08:04 PM
Chris--Still watching, impressed all to pieces. ---Brian
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 14, 2019, 03:38:27 AM
Thanks guys, great to have you following along!    :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on July 14, 2019, 03:03:00 PM
Getting close!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 16, 2019, 12:13:29 AM
Not much done on the steering engine this weekend, all I got cut was one pair of notches, for the center of the bearing caps on the crankshaft - the center of the shaft is recessed down and the caps have projections to match, which help lock it all in place.
(https://i.postimg.cc/q70sKS7N/IMG-5419.jpg)
One thing that has come together is the work on the display/transport base, which has been going in the background up in the wood shop the last couple weeks. It is a 2' x 5' piece of 1/2" thick birch plywood with a poplar wood rim notched to fit it. The base is tapered in the back half to make it a little smaller behind the tracks, and the top was coated (roughly) in Bondo to smooth over the joints and to make it look more like a quarry floor. I want to get some small scale boots, make some footprints and maybe have one stuck in the mud off to one side...
(https://i.postimg.cc/gJ23Sh8d/IMG-5420.jpg)
On the underside of the plywood are some reinforcing chunks of plywood with blind T-nuts that take the screws that hold the handles and track holders in place. Those all unscrew easily and can be removed for display, but make it possible for two people to lift this beast and carry it. I also have a large-wheeled hand truck (like for moving boxes and appliances) for trundling it out the house. Next up will be to add some velcro straps to the blocks around the tracks to keep it from shifting in the car, also a strap to keep the bucket from swinging.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Fzf3mQTB/IMG-5424.jpg)
Closer view of the block locking in the rear tracks, straps will go over the tracks to keep them from bouncing up.
(https://i.postimg.cc/DzgqP6WB/IMG-5423.jpg)
All those blocks, around the tracks and the ones for the handles, bolt through to the t-nuts underneath so they are quite strong. When removed, all that shows are small holes, that are, um, drill holes for dynamite, yeah!
Closeup of the surface - I found some rattle-can spray paint from Rustoleum that comes in several shades, and it comes out in multiple colors and with grit to give a faux-stone look. That saved a lot of time with airbrushing and dry-stippling on paint, looks pretty good. All those dark bits are from the paint - it comes in different shades, from light sandy to darker grey and black. It does not go as far as a normal can of spray paint, since it is a thicker mix with a larger bore nozzle, and it takes several hours to cure up, but it does a nice job for this purpose.

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZRsp1qxN/IMG-5421.jpg)
So, will start attaching straps to the top blocks, and continue work on the steering engine. This base needs to be done for its trip out to the quarry in a couple weeks for its big photo shoot. With the handles at each end, it is now possible to pick up the model and move it safely, with two people. The handles will be, um, 'handy' for lashing it to the tie-down rings in the back of the car so the whole thing doesnt slide around.


As Kvom said, getting close!!

 :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on July 16, 2019, 04:05:27 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: oh, and here's some for you Chris... :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Before you swipe borrow the elve's boots for footprints / stuck boot detail, better sweep up the chips on the shop floor, or there could be an elf strike.

(especially since that RC sub surfaced in the birdbath while they were waterskiing last week and scared the c^@p out of them....)  :Lol:  :cheers:

Maybe the base holes could be said to be for the elves' beer empties (in addition to dynamite holes). I see you cleared out the stack under the ash chute..... :naughty:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 16, 2019, 04:18:32 AM
 :lolb: :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: mike mott on July 16, 2019, 03:29:31 PM
Somehow I had not realized how big this model is, and it hit home when you mentioned two people to move it.  Looks fantastic.

Mike
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 16, 2019, 04:45:04 PM
Somehow I had not realized how big this model is, and it hit home when you mentioned two people to move it.  Looks fantastic.

Mike
Thanks Mike. The engine parts are small, but the model overall is the biggest I have ever done. 4-1/2 feet long, just under 100 pounds. The original machine is about 75 feet long, 128 tons, we are very lucky to have it survive all these years sitting outside the quarry.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 16, 2019, 08:05:02 PM
Today I am splitting time between the bearing caps on the steering engine, milled to fit recess and drilled/tapped into the block:
(https://i.postimg.cc/XYw86G3T/IMG-5425.jpg)
They are ready for drilling for the crankshaft then rounding over the tops.
Also got the tiedown straps on the base. These are double-sided velcro strap, great for this use since they have hooks all the way down one side and loops all the way on the other, comes in rolls. A length at each end with 4 or 5 inches of overlap works great, very strong.

(https://i.postimg.cc/wB2Q3C12/IMG-5426.jpg)
and a loop through the rear of the cabin to hold that end down, easier than getting under the cab to get around the rear tracks, and if the set screw loosened up on the rear track pivot it would just lift off the tracks, so this is more secure.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6QthWWpT/IMG-5427.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on July 16, 2019, 09:48:08 PM
BAD PUN ALERT          BAD PUN ALERT                BAD PUN ALERT        BAD PUN ALERT             BAD PUN ALERT

looks like the shovel had a visit from Mr I Mobile-Ize.

(sorry)    :Lol:    :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 16, 2019, 10:17:49 PM
BAD PUN ALERT          BAD PUN ALERT                BAD PUN ALERT        BAD PUN ALERT             BAD PUN ALERT

looks like the shovel had a visit from Mr I Mobile-Ize.

(sorry)    :Lol:    :cheers:


 :facepalm:


Was just in the woodshop making up the brackets to hold the base to the handcart, to ReMobilize it!!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on July 16, 2019, 11:00:05 PM
Really nice work Chris. Thanks for taking us along on the “ pre-published “ edition.

Whiskey
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 17, 2019, 12:11:26 AM
Really nice work Chris. Thanks for taking us along on the “ pre-published “ edition.

Whiskey


Wonderful to have you all along, I could not have done it without you folks all helping me!  Just the last couple of chapters to write, and wait for the Lombard series to finish up next spring.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on July 17, 2019, 08:27:34 AM
Hi Chris,
 This sucker just keeps getting bigger & bigger!

Have you been checking the elves mail lately? Wondering if there subscription to Charles Atlas Body Building for all arrived yet?    :lolb:

Just a suggestion....... on the hold down strap thru the cab, can I suggest a block under the cab so when you pull up on the strap it pulls down on to it. Helps to prevent thing bouncing around..... the last thing you won’t in 100 pounds of carefully crafted metal getting lose in a confined space with you present!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 17, 2019, 01:12:08 PM
Hi Chris,
 This sucker just keeps getting bigger & bigger!

Have you been checking the elves mail lately? Wondering if there subscription to Charles Atlas Body Building for all arrived yet?    :lolb:

Just a suggestion....... on the hold down strap thru the cab, can I suggest a block under the cab so when you pull up on the strap it pulls down on to it. Helps to prevent thing bouncing around..... the last thing you won’t in 100 pounds of carefully crafted metal getting lose in a confined space with you present!

Cheers Kerrin


Hi Kerrin,


Not sure where you mean, a block between the base and the frame under the floor? Or between the strap and the cab floor?  The way it is now, the strap runs across the cab floor and down to the base on either side.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 17, 2019, 03:08:17 PM
Getting to work on the valve and throttle bearing blocks this morning, started with fitting the blocks for the caps and drilling the cross holes for the valves and throttle, also the holes in the lifting rings behind the bearing blocks:
(https://i.postimg.cc/LXYHDPjY/IMG-5429.jpg)
Next will shape the tops of the caps down to size...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 17, 2019, 08:13:54 PM
Caps trimmed down and bearings made/installed, these are simple tube bearings so quick to bore/turn/trim to size.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QdSh3DDq/IMG-5434.jpg)
Next I think will be pistons and crossheads...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on July 17, 2019, 08:54:09 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Great work as always Chris!

I didn't realize Lincoln pennies were so big! (wait a minute.....)  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on July 17, 2019, 09:08:32 PM
Dog that is one bad ass little engine and a lot of metal carving. Great job all around Chris all respect due...... :praise2:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on July 17, 2019, 10:30:05 PM
Chris:

I know that Velcro is the greatest thing since sliced bread, but are you sure those straps are going to hold?  I've no doubt that they'll hold under normal conditions and keep the model from sliding around.  But I've got a what-if for you, what if you get into a situation where you are braking hard, are those Velcro straps gong to be enough to protect you from the model?

Just playing Devil's advocate here,
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 17, 2019, 11:08:29 PM
Chris:

I know that Velcro is the greatest thing since sliced bread, but are you sure those straps are going to hold?  I've no doubt that they'll hold under normal conditions and keep the model from sliding around.  But I've got a what-if for you, what if you get into a situation where you are braking hard, are those Velcro straps gong to be enough to protect you from the model?

Just playing Devil's advocate here,
Don
I think so, the blocks around the tracks take most of the load, the straps hold them down into them. There is 6 inches of overlap per strap, and the straps are bolted down. There will also be rope around the boom and the handles, and the base will be tied with rope to rings in the cargo deck.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on July 18, 2019, 02:17:28 AM

(https://i.postimg.cc/QdSh3DDq/IMG-5434.jpg)

You can't fool us, that's one of those George Britnell coins  :lolb:

Nice work Chris, I've been following along steadily.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 18, 2019, 02:38:25 AM

(https://i.postimg.cc/QdSh3DDq/IMG-5434.jpg)

You can't fool us, that's one of those George Britnell coins  :lolb:

Nice work Chris, I've been following along steadily.


Yeah, you got me, its a giant coin. And the Sherline is really a big Bridgeport with a Sherline skin on it....   :Jester:



Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 18, 2019, 02:44:30 PM
Changed my mind on which parts to make next, going to do the stand which holds the steering engine up vertical on the cab floor. This is made from some sheet stock, rough cut then trimmed down on the mill, clamped to the wood block I used when making the booms many moons ago.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y0pmbdnd/IMG-5436.jpg)
Here are the parts shaped to outline, next will cut the openings in the vertical plate and the base plate, then can drill for some temp screws to hold it all together for silver soldering the joints. I assume that the openings are there for access to the big end caps and to allow the rods/eccentrics to slide in from underneath during assembly, maybe also to reduce the amount of metal needed in the castings, the openings are there in the original.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Y0bLVQTM/IMG-5437.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: mike mott on July 18, 2019, 03:42:15 PM
Chris, this is the first time I have seen the hold down clamps used with a block of wood, now the choice becomes what wood to choose? Hmmmm would save me from removing the big vice and then having to square it all up again.

Mike
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on July 18, 2019, 04:13:48 PM
Good morning Chris,

Boy that penny in the photo really brings to scale the small size of that engine. Beautiful job :ThumbsUp:

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 18, 2019, 04:43:06 PM
Chris, this is the first time I have seen the hold down clamps used with a block of wood, now the choice becomes what wood to choose? Hmmmm would save me from removing the big vice and then having to square it all up again.

Mike
Hi Mike,
I have a stack of tropical lemon wood timber that I picked up back in my early ship modeling days, perfect wood for spars and detail cabin work, very fine grain. That is what this piece is. Any stable hardwood would do, the hold-downs in this case go through and are held by t-nuts in the mill table. I have also had cases where I threaded the wood itself for the posts, it works for a while but after a number of times removing/inserting the posts, the wood still works out and gets loose. Still, a good way to make a temporary holding plate without the expense of a big chunk of ali or steel. Other woods that work for this would be ash, oak, walnut, anything hard. I use offcuts of birch plywood too. As you are thinking, the block can be held in the vise for this - either thread the hole in the wood, or just put a t-nut on the bottom side of the block, let it pull against the wood.

Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 18, 2019, 04:43:18 PM
Good morning Chris,

Boy that penny in the photo really brings to scale the small size of that engine. Beautiful job :ThumbsUp:

Have a great day,
Thomas
:cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 18, 2019, 04:45:13 PM
More on the engine stand - got the holes milled in, then set up to drill the screw holes to hold it together for silver soldering (the screw heads will be ground off after soldering). Started with the center plate to the base plate:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZnXPj1g6/IMG-5439.jpg)
then the sides
(https://i.postimg.cc/xjZP0zCq/IMG-5440.jpg)
ready to solder
(https://i.postimg.cc/tCVN74Zk/IMG-5443.jpg)
test fit the engine first though!
(https://i.postimg.cc/bwcHnf1h/IMG-5441.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on July 18, 2019, 08:58:39 PM
That stand must have been a very heavy piece of cast iron on the original shovel. Sturdy though. Nice job on the fab!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 18, 2019, 09:07:06 PM
That stand must have been a very heavy piece of cast iron on the original shovel. Sturdy though. Nice job on the fab!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Big chunk of metal, just under 2' tall, just under an inch thick. Glad I don't have to pick up the real one! Fortunately its a simple shape so easy to fab for the model.
Here it is after soldering and cleanup, ready to drill mounting holes for the engine and to bolt it to the floor plates.
(https://i.postimg.cc/g0pYxpdQ/IMG-5445.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on July 18, 2019, 10:44:44 PM
Yeah, it may be a simple part to fab, but think about the poor schmoe that had to cast that back in the day.  That's a deep casting no matter which way you orient it.  Even if you made into a 2 part pattern that separated at the shelf level, it's still a long ways into the sand.

The skill of the old foundrymen amazes me looking at some of the parts they cast, and it all had to be done manually.  Carving the patterns, prepping the molds, pouring the iron, all of it had to be done by hand, or at most with some manually controlled equipment.  I was looking at a cast iron part of a roll set today that was probably 60-80 years old.  It was nothing but curves and it was not a solid cast iron part, it was cast with a core.  Those guys deserve a lot of respect for what they were able to do.

Think about how complex the steam controls for the original Marion were, that took a lot of skill to be able to cast that and get a usable part.  You can bet that the boss let them know when the number of rejects got too high.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 18, 2019, 10:52:44 PM
Yeah, it may be a simple part to fab, but think about the poor schmoe that had to cast that back in the day.  That's a deep casting no matter which way you orient it.  Even if you made into a 2 part pattern that separated at the shelf level, it's still a long ways into the sand.

The skill of the old foundrymen amazes me looking at some of the parts they cast, and it all had to be done manually.  Carving the patterns, prepping the molds, pouring the iron, all of it had to be done by hand, or at most with some manually controlled equipment.  I was looking at a cast iron part of a roll set today that was probably 60-80 years old.  It was nothing but curves and it was not a solid cast iron part, it was cast with a core.  Those guys deserve a lot of respect for what they were able to do.

Think about how complex the steam controls for the original Marion were, that took a lot of skill to be able to cast that and get a usable part.  You can bet that the boss let them know when the number of rejects got too high.

Don
I totally agree! Some of the parts on the Marion are just amazing castings, the cylinder blocks for the crowd/slew engines are totally amazing in the cavities and passages that they have. Even the tracks are quite complex, all the undercuts and openings inside them. In those days nearly everything was a sand cast part on all engines and flywheels - look at the size and complexity of a flywheel for a large mill engine. Quite amazing what they were able to do! The large water/sewage pumping engines are chock full of enormous castings. And then they had to move them to the site...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on July 19, 2019, 10:57:34 AM
Hi Chris,
 Tried to copy past picture but that didn’t work.

Ok a block that fits between the block behind the tracks, & the block that has the handle on it, the height so that it fits between the base & the under side of the frames....... does that make more sense?

Oh on the devils advocate front, the only thing holding the straps are the screws........

The little engine is looking neat!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 19, 2019, 01:56:42 PM
Hi Chris,
 Tried to copy past picture but that didn’t work.

Ok a block that fits between the block behind the tracks, & the block that has the handle on it, the height so that it fits between the base & the under side of the frames....... does that make more sense?

Oh on the devils advocate front, the only thing holding the straps are the screws........

The little engine is looking neat!

Cheers Kerrin
I follow your description, will do some experimenting. Maybe a block that locks over the the tracks and frame.

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 19, 2019, 03:12:02 PM
Little more done this morning, got the engine bolted to the stand...
(https://i.postimg.cc/yxJ9HdRw/IMG-5447.jpg)
Ready for work on the moving parts now...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on July 19, 2019, 03:36:59 PM
I follow your description, will do some experimenting. Maybe a block that locks over the the tracks and frame.

I vote for the blocks.  I'd hate to read that your air-bags saved your life in the crash, only for you to be taken out by your own model hitting you in the head.

You've already said that you're going to strap the board handles down to the tie-down points and that the handles are through-bolted, so the weak link is the Velcro straps.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 19, 2019, 03:50:59 PM
I follow your description, will do some experimenting. Maybe a block that locks over the the tracks and frame.

I vote for the blocks.  I'd hate to read that your air-bags saved your life in the crash, only for you to be taken out by your own model hitting you in the head.

You've already said that you're going to strap the board handles down to the tie-down points and that the handles are through-bolted, so the weak link is the Velcro straps.

Don
The model is in the back of the car, it would not fit between/over the seat back anyway, so I think you are over-inflating (air bag, inflate...) the issue a bit.  :Jester:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on July 19, 2019, 06:31:58 PM
The model is in the back of the car, it would not fit between/over the seat back anyway, so I think you are over-inflating (air bag, inflate...) the issue a bit.  :Jester:

Sorry, didn't know there was another seat between you and it that would slow the model down.

We gotta watch out for the big Elf you know, where else are we gonna get our fix of machining porn?

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on July 19, 2019, 06:53:07 PM
Engine and stand assembly look out stand ing!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:  here's some extra for the others  :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 19, 2019, 09:03:44 PM
The model is in the back of the car, it would not fit between/over the seat back anyway, so I think you are over-inflating (air bag, inflate...) the issue a bit.  :Jester:

Sorry, didn't know there was another seat between you and it that would slow the model down.

We gotta watch out for the big Elf you know, where else are we gonna get our fix of machining porn?

Don


Uh oh, a Swarf Groupie!!  Need another restraining order...   :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 19, 2019, 10:26:22 PM
Not much shop time today, spent some time replacing old flourescent shop lights in the different shops with new LED ones, WAY better light! Some of them were quite old larger diameter tubes, they were working but fading out, the new lights have no flicker and a better color, plus being brighter. There are cheaper off-brand ones on places like Amazon, but I have had great luck with getting them from SuperbrightLEDs.com, never have had a bad one from them yet. Also use their PAR-20 LED spotlights in the track lights and machine lights - similar brightness to halogens but without the heat lamp effect, very nice in heat waves like we are getting here now.


Did get time to start on the pistons, got the heads turned to size and the rings fitted (viton o-rings), and threaded the piston rods for the crossheads. The heads need to be attached and the rods cut to length, then can start on the crossheads.

(https://i.postimg.cc/L8CNqfJG/IMG-5448.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 20, 2019, 03:05:56 PM
Continuing on with the piston assembly, this morning started in on the crossheads, turning to diameter/drilling the ends on the lathe, then milling the con rod pocket with it held in a collet block:
(https://i.postimg.cc/kG05qSh0/IMG-5449.jpg)
and drilling the cross pin and shaping the bottom end
(https://i.postimg.cc/bYWrxXNm/IMG-5450.jpg)
Test fit on the engine block, a little de-burring and it moves well.
(https://i.postimg.cc/jdf5v8Dt/IMG-5453.jpg)
Next up - con-rods. On the larger engines I made them out of steel with bronze bearings, on these I think I will make them all out of bronze, getting too small for that many pieces.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: mike mott on July 20, 2019, 04:45:09 PM
Really is an amazing piece of machine work.

Mike
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 20, 2019, 06:21:51 PM
Thanks Mike!

Started in on the con rod big ends and the eccentric followers, all out of bronze. The bar was first slit where the center of the holes will be:
(https://i.postimg.cc/x8WgS0Ds/IMG-5454.jpg)
then milled in the steps and drilled the holes for the bolts to hold the top/bottoms together for boring the holes out. These parts will be sawn off the bar, bolted together, then bored on the lathe while holding the parts in the 4-jaw.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8k3ZvbJh/IMG-5455.jpg)



You will doubtless notice that there are two sets, smaller is the con rod big end, large is the eccentric follower blank. Each has two sets of holes since two of each are needed. But, due to a CNC error (Count Not Correctly)   :facepalm:   I got too far out on the first set of the eccentrics and broke through the side. So went farther up the bar and did a replacement there.

So, next will saw the pieces off the bar and start cleaning them up in the lathe...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on July 20, 2019, 08:04:54 PM
It was the heat. Thats your story and you're stickin' to it.  :Lol:

Glad I'm not the only one that has these hoo-ha's.  :shrug:

Keep pluggin'.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on July 20, 2019, 09:16:08 PM
Well hell Dog it ok man you got this.....still with you Dog wanting to see this baby finished..... :stickpoke:


 :popcornsmall:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on July 21, 2019, 03:36:50 AM
Uh oh, a Swarf Groupie!!  Need another restraining order...   :lolb:
Swarf Groupie...   Not so much.

Swarf Jumkie...    Definitely!!

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 21, 2019, 03:39:32 AM
Uh oh, a Swarf Groupie!!  Need another restraining order...   :lolb:
Swarf Groupie...   Not so much.

Swarf Jumkie...    Definitely!!

Don
Oh, thats very different, welcome to the club!!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 21, 2019, 02:42:34 PM
More on the big ends and followers - bored out the eccentrics to fit the inside of the slots in the cams, going by measurements since no way to test fit them at this point.
(https://i.postimg.cc/LsQ3wddJ/IMG-5456.jpg)
then parted off the two followers, trimming the outside face first
(https://i.postimg.cc/KjB71R1T/IMG-5458.jpg)
Turned the part around, drilled/bored the big ends of the con rods to size and parted them off too...
(https://i.postimg.cc/Wbc6Q6yw/IMG-5459.jpg)
then trimmed the end of the caps down...
(https://i.postimg.cc/TwyJXkGC/IMG-5460.jpg)
then made up a little expanding arbor, using a 5-40 SHCS with a taper turned into the end as the expanding screw, and used a small boring tool to cut in the shoulders on the inside of the bore, first one side then the other of each part
(https://i.postimg.cc/WpkwWf54/IMG-5461.jpg)
Here are the parts test fit on the crankshaft - the followers are a good smooth fit, the big ends need a little lapping in since they are just a touch snug, but I'll do that after soldering on the arms since it makes them easier to spin that way.
(https://i.postimg.cc/j5GQqzSK/IMG-5463.jpg)
So, next will be to make the arms for each piece...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 21, 2019, 11:23:20 PM
Today saw the big ends notched for the arms, and the arms notched to match, the pairs silver soldered together. Here they are just out of the pickle bath, ready to get drilled for the small end pins and then get the rest of the profiles milled in..
(https://i.postimg.cc/cLZ4VqHx/IMG-5464.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on July 22, 2019, 02:30:33 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on July 22, 2019, 03:04:22 AM
Thanks Mike!

Started in on the con rod big ends and the eccentric followers, all out of bronze. The bar was first slit where the center of the holes will be:
(https://i.postimg.cc/x8WgS0Ds/IMG-5454.jpg)
then milled in the steps and drilled the holes for the bolts to hold the top/bottoms together for boring the holes out. These parts will be sawn off the bar, bolted together, then bored on the lathe while holding the parts in the 4-jaw.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8k3ZvbJh/IMG-5455.jpg)





You will doubtless notice that there are two sets, smaller is the con rod big end, large is the eccentric follower blank. Each has two sets of holes since two of each are needed. But, due to a CNC error (Count Not Correctly)   :facepalm:   I got too far out on the first set of the eccentrics and broke through the side. So went farther up the bar and did a replacement there.

So, next will saw the pieces off the bar and start cleaning them up in the lathe...
CNC error (Count Not Correctly) 
O I wish I had heard that one when I was working at CNC.
We were doing manual programing from drawings and a couple of times we had parts with hundereds of holes in them, and sometimes the drawings we were given were not the current version and there would be disagrements about the parts.
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 22, 2019, 05:20:15 PM
This morning got the con rods and eccentric followers milled/sanded to profile:
(https://i.postimg.cc/FHwdxzyn/IMG-5465.jpg)

and assembled onto the engine:
(https://i.postimg.cc/KYLKpbQc/IMG-5468.jpg)

Here is a quick video of the parts going round and round...
[youtube1]https://youtu.be/0R4ApQlBllA[/youtube1]
With the cylinder slipped on, and the crank turned, there is smooth motion and good suction on the ends of the cylinders, so the piston rings are a good fit.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on July 22, 2019, 05:39:24 PM
Chris--Still doing great and moving right along. You are getting down to George Britnel size parts now.--Looking really good!!---Brian
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 22, 2019, 08:12:23 PM
Thanks Brian - thats a very high goal! Someday I want to try one of his Tiny vertical engines, not quite there yet but working towards it.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 22, 2019, 08:15:36 PM
And starting in on the steam chest - cut out the chest and lid blanks, trimmed to outside dimensions, and drilled/tapped the 1-72 mounting holes.
(https://i.postimg.cc/d131CT3f/IMG-5469.jpg)
Next step will be to mill out the center of the chest and shape in the overhang around the outside...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on July 23, 2019, 06:29:26 PM
Still following along Chris.  Great progress and fantastic work,  :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 23, 2019, 06:36:50 PM
Thanks Craig, coming down to the final stop on this ride soon!  Got the steam chest and lid shaped down the rest of the way, along with the inlet/outlet pipes. Paint is drying on those parts, pics later on when it sets up.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 24, 2019, 01:27:39 AM
Little paint on the steam chest parts and stand...
(https://i.postimg.cc/SR22J7Kf/IMG-5472.jpg)
Time to start working on the levers, valves and passages...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Johnmcc69 on July 24, 2019, 02:57:03 AM
Parts are looking really good Chris!
 & from what I can see, the drawings are coming along well. Where will this one be published? This (& the Lombard) would make great build books, "The Shop Wisdom of Chris' elves"..ghost writer Chris ..
 I know you mentioned the Lombard being in a mag (Live Steam?)
 
 Do any of the publishing companies even publish books like this anymore? It seems that the "newer" generation to the hobby want your CAD files (.stp  or .stl) so they can 3D print an engine. (Don't get me wrong, I appreciate new tech & am impressed with new tech, but...)

 Anyways, great work Chris, & always following.
(Can't wait to see the Stanley, or whatever next,

 John
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 24, 2019, 03:43:48 AM
Parts are looking really good Chris!
 & from what I can see, the drawings are coming along well. Where will this one be published? This (& the Lombard) would make great build books, "The Shop Wisdom of Chris' elves"..ghost writer Chris ..
 I know you mentioned the Lombard being in a mag (Live Steam?)
 
 Do any of the publishing companies even publish books like this anymore? It seems that the "newer" generation to the hobby want your CAD files (.stp  or .stl) so they can 3D print an engine. (Don't get me wrong, I appreciate new tech & am impressed with new tech, but...)

 Anyways, great work Chris, & always following.
(Can't wait to see the Stanley, or whatever next,

 John


 :lolb: :ROFL:   love it, the elves are changing the titles as  I type...




Hi John, the Lombard build is being serialized in Live Steam & Outdoor Railroading  (Village Press), it will finish next spring, it started a year and a half ago. Their plan is to pull it all together as a book afterwards, very exciting!  The editor wants to start the Marion build after the Lombard series finishes, that will run even longer, much more material. Both series include full measured drawings. I gave him first draft for the Marion this spring, just the final three chapters to write. They do still publish plan and build books, though the number of publishers is dwindling. VP has been great, they are always looking for submissions, start writing!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on July 24, 2019, 01:09:42 PM
 Looking good Chris ..stillfollowing along  not long now... :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Willy
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 24, 2019, 03:40:48 PM
Looking good Chris ..stillfollowing along  not long now... :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Willy
Thanks Willy!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 24, 2019, 03:52:50 PM
Started in on the passages this morning - laid out the pattern on paper, and pre-calculated the moves and stopping points on the handwheels to make sure no on-the-fly counting goofs, then spot drilled and drilled the port openings. The rows are at two different depths to connect to the passages out to the cylinders and cross passages, to be drilled later.

(https://i.postimg.cc/vBzXF8Wf/IMG-5474.jpg)
The ports have a height and spacing of .044", which are the smallest I've done so far. With such a small drill, I did not attempt to closely chain drill with overlapping holes, since the drill would just have flexed and gone into the other hole. So, I got out my high speed air rotary handpiece and a small (0.025" diameter) cutter to connect the holes:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Zn5HTkcg/IMG-5476.jpg)
The cutter COULD have been used in the mill, but at this small size I've found that it is much quicker to do it by hand, working from the middle of the holes out to the edge, finishing with a very light touch to straighten the edges. After the hand work, the face was lapped on a diamond coated metal plate to smooth out the surface, and remove any burs and machining marks.
(https://i.postimg.cc/C5rN5vrK/IMG-5477.jpg)
As with the crowd and slew engines, you will note that the ports are not the usual pattern for a d-valve engine. There are four ports per cylinder, plus another row of three in the center. The center row gets a normal d-valve, which acts as the throttle plus forward/reverse control. Steam in the chest can go down one port of the center set, and the other two ports get connected, with the middle hole which goes to the exhaust tube. The two outer ports in the center set connect to the first and third ports in the outer rows. The outer rows get a double-layer d-valve, which take the steam/exhaust from the connecting passages (not drilled yet) and route them to the ends of the cylinder. It is quite an ingenious design, invented by Marion, that results in an engine that has just one set of eccentrics and no Stephenson link, making it much smaller overall. Earlier in this build log I showed diagrams of how the passages connect, this engine uses the same desiogn, just smaller.
With the ports all cut, next up will be to drill the connecting passages between the ports, the exhaust passage, and the passages to the ends of the cylinders. Good time for a break, don't want to make a goof at this stage!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 24, 2019, 08:33:39 PM
And finished up the passages this afternoon after a good (uuurrrrppp) lunch outing. Drilled through the exhaust and cross passages (cross passages plugged with tight fit rod and loctite), and also the passages out to the cylinder ends, which also needed short recesses milled in to connect to the bores - this let me drill down square and avoid the riskier angled drilling.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cHBt4X48/IMG-5479.jpg)
The parts so far:
(https://i.postimg.cc/hv4zJTfZ/IMG-5480.jpg)
All thats left are the valve sliders, valve rods, and control levers to complete the engine. After that, and getting it to run of course, there remains a little piping and the linkage to the throttle from the front of the cab. Unless I forgot something   :shrug:   that will complete the model! Down to the last week or so of a roughly two year project (first learned that the shovel was nearby late in June of 2017).
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: sco on July 24, 2019, 09:48:31 PM
More impressive micro metal surgery - still following your build Chris!

Simon.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on July 24, 2019, 09:49:40 PM
So when you're done with the Marion and after a nice long vacation for those hard working elves, and maybe even a day or two off for you, what's next?

I seem to remember that at one time, well it might have been more than just one time, somebody might have mentioned something about a Stanley Steamer?

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on July 24, 2019, 09:55:01 PM
Engine looks great Chris!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Re project completion - I think you are forgetting about the accessories you might need for the shovel - 27 dump cars, 2 steam 0-6-0 locomotives to pull them up to and past the shovel, and 225 feet of track for it all to run on. (plus 5 coal scoop shovels and 3 oil cans )  :Lol: :cheers:

(or 2 coal scoops if you want to keep the shop elves on their toes, the little b^gg$rs)  :naughty: :shrug:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 24, 2019, 10:40:44 PM
More impressive micro metal surgery - still following your build Chris!

Simon.


 :cheers:




So when you're done with the Marion and after a nice long vacation for those hard working elves, and maybe even a day or two off for you, what's next?

I seem to remember that at one time, well it might have been more than just one time, somebody might have mentioned something about a Stanley Steamer?

Don


The shop elves and I have some road trips planned, a well deserved rest!


I do have a set of blueprints and a 3d CAD model for a Stanley Steamer engine that I want to build. Also have worked up a design for a Cat 340D excavator that I want to build a RC version of, with electric powered substitute for the hydraulic pistons. If my design for the pistons work and give enough power, that will be an easy build. Also have a copy of the original builders blueprints for the Ward pumping station in Buffalo, with five 60 foot tall triple compound engines, have been converting them bit by bit to 3d CAD model. Also always have ideas for more rc submarines. And carving and scrimshaw project ideas... No worries, lots of projects in the pipeline!!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 24, 2019, 10:42:14 PM
Engine looks great Chris!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Re project completion - I think you are forgetting about the accessories you might need for the shovel - 27 dump cars, 2 steam 0-6-0 locomotives to pull them up to and past the shovel, and 225 feet of track for it all to run on. (plus 5 coal scoop shovels and 3 oil cans )  :Lol: :cheers:

(or 2 coal scoops if you want to keep the shop elves on their toes, the little b^gg$rs)  :naughty: :shrug:


Well, come on, I thought YOU were building the railway side of it all!!   ::)


 :Jester:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on July 25, 2019, 12:28:14 AM
You have out done yourself Dog very impressive build and you have my respect..... :praise2:



 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 25, 2019, 01:26:05 AM
You have out done yourself Dog very impressive build and you have my respect..... :praise2:



 :drinking-41:
Don
Thanks very much Don!   :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: mike mott on July 25, 2019, 01:48:38 AM
Very nice bit of work Chris.

Mike
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on July 25, 2019, 12:24:32 PM
Quote
Well, come on, I thought YOU were building the railway side of it all!!   ::)


 :Jester:

Oh, wait.......... :help: :paranoia:

 :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 25, 2019, 04:22:00 PM
Getting deep into the fiddly bits of the steering engine, making up the control levers for the valves that take the motion on the eccentrics up to the steam chest. Got the rods and upper levers silver soldered together and shaped, and the pivot bolts for the top connection made. Next up are the lower levers...
(https://i.postimg.cc/kgCMPL2q/IMG-5481.jpg)

Also have the 1-72 studs for the steam chest in place, still need to cut the gaskets before bolting it all up. I am going to wait on bolting the cylinders/steam chest in place till the control rods are complete, to keep working room on the main block (not much finger room on this small engine).
(https://i.postimg.cc/YC87K0cz/IMG-5482.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 26, 2019, 03:35:56 PM
And starting to round the final (of 4753.215) turn - the lower section of the valve levers are made and installed:
(https://i.postimg.cc/cLc6Xx6Y/IMG-5483.jpg)

Next will make the throttle lever, very similar shape, then start in on the valve rods and sliders...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on July 26, 2019, 07:30:26 PM
Well, I FINALLY understand why you're painting so many of the parts rather than polishing them, other than the fact that there's so bloomin' many parts.  Most of the engine parts you'd never find after the buffing wheel grabbed onto them and threw them across the shop.

You and the elves have been doing a wonderful job, yeah - probably even the ones that came up with the "Sharpen while you wait" scam.  You've got to admit, that was ALMOST as good as the "Candygram for Mongo".

It's been a privilege to ride along and watch over your shoulder.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 26, 2019, 08:01:02 PM
Well, I FINALLY understand why you're painting so many of the parts rather than polishing them, other than the fact that there's so bloomin' many parts.  Most of the engine parts you'd never find after the buffing wheel grabbed onto them and threw them across the shop.

You and the elves have been doing a wonderful job, yeah - probably even the ones that came up with the "Sharpen while you wait" scam.  You've got to admit, that was ALMOST as good as the "Candygram for Mongo".

It's been a privilege to ride along and watch over your shoulder.

Don
Thanks Don!  I always liked the old SNL version, Land Shark!
Polishing all these parts would definitely have been a career in itself. Paint is much easier, luckily the original was done in basic colors without pinstriping.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 26, 2019, 08:04:21 PM
Throttle levers are on, little hard to see in the photo with all the other levers all packed in there too...
(https://i.postimg.cc/CLK78pVx/IMG-5486.jpg)
Time to start on the valve rods and sliders... In the picture, just in front of the cylinder you can see the drawing of the cylinder valve slider, with its three chambers and crossover tube above the middle one. All part of the built-in reversing valve that Marion invented.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: mike mott on July 27, 2019, 12:38:58 AM
That is a very complex device, I'm curious about the reversing valve you mention.

Mike
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 27, 2019, 01:13:46 AM
That is a very complex device, I'm curious about the reversing valve you mention.

Mike
If you go back to reply number 3601 in this thread (this link should take you there, if I did it right) 

http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,7530.msg198546/topicseen.html#msg198546
there are some diagrams I did for how it works with a description. When researching the Marion 91, I found their original patent (google patents search) for the engine, which has cross sections of the whole engine and lots of descriptions - took a lot of wadiing through patent-ese to figure it out. Its a really slick setup - in the original, they had a spool valve inside a tube with holes increasing in size/decreasing in spacing for the central throttle valve, but the cylinder valves are just as I show, though theirs are rounded on top rather that squared off.  The patent is US842465, I put up some pics from it in reply number 1531 of this thread. The whole thing is available at:
https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/ce/3a/f3/ad0dddb4e8e308/US842465.pdf
That mechanism is the same in the crowd and slew engines I did a few months ago, works very well in model scale.
Any specific questions I can answer, please let me know!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: mike mott on July 27, 2019, 03:43:38 AM
Thanks for the link back, I have not gone through your whole thread yet, Now I am even more gobsmacked by this engine.

Mike
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 27, 2019, 09:32:24 PM
Valve rods and outer ends made...
(https://i.postimg.cc/prtJZqcq/IMG-5487.jpg)
As well as another few shoulder bolts to attach them to the levers...
(https://i.postimg.cc/cCMM5wVZ/IMG-5488.jpg)
Next will start on the valve adjusting nuts and the valve sliders - down to the last few bits to make:
- valve sliders
- valve adjusting nuts

- links from throttle lever up to the control rod from the front of the cab
- pivot to take the control rod from horizontal to vertical above the engine
- last bits of piping to get steam to the steering engine
Thats all thats left on the build! 
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on July 27, 2019, 11:25:57 PM
Hello Chris,

That little baby is really looking good but very complex  :ThumbsUp:

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Roger B on July 28, 2019, 08:42:07 AM
Once again a long read to catch up  ::) Excellent as ever  :praise2:  :praise2:  :wine1: It may also prompt me to replace the old, and probably dimming, fluorescent tubes in my workshop with new LED ones.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 28, 2019, 03:08:09 PM
Once again a long read to catch up  ::) Excellent as ever  :praise2: :praise2: :wine1: It may also prompt me to replace the old, and probably dimming, fluorescent tubes in my workshop with new LED ones.
Thanks Roger!

I was really surprised with how the LED shoplights brightened up the place, with lights in the same place as the old ones. There are lots of choices out there for the shoplights, need to pay close attention to the output lumens and color temperature (5K color temp works well for shop). My model shop uses a series of track lights plus a few task lights on goosenecks, they are all par20 LED bulbs now, very nice and they run a lot cooler than the older incandescents and halogens. The wood shop is mostly 4' shop lights with some track lights.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 28, 2019, 03:18:03 PM
This morning the elves, um, I mean 'I', got started on the valve sliders. These are a double-decker D-valve, with the two outer chambers connected with a drilled passage. The chambers are pretty small - one is .044 wide, the others are .131 wide, so milling them all around would be pretty tough. So, decided to drill the corners with a nbr 58 drill first (spot drilled before drilling to prevent skating)
(https://i.postimg.cc/ryNPM1SX/IMG-5489.jpg)
The end chambers are deeper than the center one, to connect in with the cross passage. Then, hogged out the larger chamber centers with a plunge cut with a 1/8" end mill:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Dw8jrRRn/IMG-5491.jpg)
and drilled the cross passage to connect the end chambers:
(https://i.postimg.cc/rFhZtqnf/IMG-5492.jpg)
That left the edges to clean up and take out to final dimension. I could have used the dental bur in the mill, but I can do the same thing quicker with the high speed air handpiece, takes a light touch but the cuts are quick. The first pass was with a .025" diameter carbide bur, then smoothed things with a diamond coated taper bit:

(https://i.postimg.cc/7YPQ65VC/IMG-5495.jpg)
Last steps are to cut the openings on the top for the valve rod and adjusting nut, and cut/trim them off the longer bar and to length. Finally the valve face will be lapped on a diamond plate. After that, can start on the slider for the throttle (center) position, which looks like a standard d-valve with one chamber.

Also, been talking with the head of the historical society, looks at this point like I'll be able to get in to take pictures of the model with the real machine in late August. Also, they are holding a kids day out at the shovel and I'll be talking at that on how the machine works and what it was used for - should be fun!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 29, 2019, 10:04:52 PM
Today the slots for the valve rods and adjusting nuts were cut in
(https://i.postimg.cc/m2CyWb4h/IMG-5496.jpg)
and then started the process of fitting the finely floating ajusting nuts, with filing, fettling, fussing till a fine floating fit was functional. Goal was to get the adjusting nuts to be a easy slide fit without any slop front to back, allowing the slider to move vertically to maintain a steam tight fit on the valve face. So far, the two cylinder sliders are fit to a satisfactory level.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Cx0HFWM7/IMG-5499.jpg)
Next need to make the slider for the throttle valve in the center, that one is a normal looking d-valve, just with longer ends to cover the tapered slot in the valve face. As the taper gets uncovered, more steam is let into the passage, while the exhaust from the other passage is directed to the output pipe. Note that on the two cylinders, the sliders never uncover the ports like in a normal d-valve, they just redirect the steam between different pairs of ports.

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ozzie46 on July 29, 2019, 10:21:03 PM
 fitting the finely floating ajusting nuts, with filing, fettling, fussing till a fine floating fit was functional
Say that fast 10 times. :LittleDevil:

Still following. Looks great

Ron
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on July 29, 2019, 10:30:30 PM
I'm filled with fine feelings looking over your fettling on the freakin' valves and floating fripperies....... :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Tomorrow's subject - use of the letter H in alliteration.....    :Lol: :shrug:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 29, 2019, 11:07:50 PM
 :ROFL: :lolb: :Jester:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 30, 2019, 06:18:56 PM
The throttle valve slider is made and fitted, filed, fettled, etc, everything but flocked.  This morning got a start on the (hopefully) final assembly of the steering engine. The top and bottom cylinder gaskets were made from the paper gasket stock, like the other engines, and the cylinder all bolted up. After lunch will get a start on the steam chest gaskets. After that its a matter of getting the valve rods bolted to the levers and timed, and with luck get a test on compressed air. The connections at the levers may need some extra work, on the larger ones the holes in the ends of the levers needed to be elongated to give the shoulder bolts a slot to ride in, due to the arc of the lever ends pulling the valve rods up and down. Will see if I have enough of that filed in yet, or if it needs a bit more. Weather, time, and tide permitting, should have this running this week!
(https://i.postimg.cc/T1qvxm0C/IMG-5500.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on July 30, 2019, 06:33:02 PM
Enjoy finessing the fine fitment of the levers with the files, generating filing fragments. Don't flagellate yourself if the features fail to function immediately..... (oh boy I'm out of F's - time to go to Word Mart)  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 30, 2019, 10:19:07 PM
Well, one big step forward - steering engine is all assembled with the gaskets, all moves smoothly:
(https://i.postimg.cc/MKrt5vtf/IMG-5501.jpg)
 :whoohoo:

Then, a step or two backwards!  :zap:   Wired on a air tube to the input pipe from the compressor, and found two problems:
Neither is a big deal, but they do require taking the cylinder back off the crosshead, and also the steam chest off the cylinder - lots of fiddly screws and nuts. It also looks like the paper gaskets are seeping out the side of the steam chest cover slightly, through the paper - was a little worried about that during assembly, since the distance from the outside to the screw holes and such are so small. I think I will be better off going with either a solid gasket material (have some thin viton and silicone sheet) or maybe switching to a RTV type gasket goop. This engine is quite small, so the width of the faces being squeezed in the joints is quite small. Good thing is that all the moving parts appear to be sliding nice and smoothly, no sticking points anywhere.

Hmmm.... I THINK I grabbed the correct gasket roll from the stock, have to check that, have a couple of different paper gasket materials. Oh, and don't suggest using paper bag stock, have tried that in the past, and the stuff the stores around here use is quite porous down the center - air whistles through from cut edge to cut edge. I have some rolls of gasket stock made for use on cars that works well, just may have grabbed the wrong one. If so, need to toss that one roll, have had problems in the past with it but for some reason kept it. PackRatItis!

So, good place to stop for the day, and pick it up fresh again tomorrow - it wants to run, just needs to hold in its pressure and push cylinders rather than blowing the elves off the tabletop!  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: JC54 on July 30, 2019, 10:34:32 PM
Have you supplied the elves with parachutes? Just in case, got to keep an eye on Elf and safety. Great build. JC
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 30, 2019, 10:51:02 PM
Have you supplied the elves with parachutes? Just in case, got to keep an eye on Elf and safety. Great build. JC
Elf and....  Ooohhh, you have been hanging out with CNR. And Zee. And Thomas... And, well, the rest of us!   :lolb:   Good one!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 30, 2019, 11:54:27 PM
Yup, grabbed the wrong roll of gasket paper, throwing that one out... 
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on July 31, 2019, 02:58:27 AM
Yup, grabbed the wrong roll of gasket paper, throwing that one out...
Don't throw it out, BURN IT.
If you just throw it out those little scoundrels' will fish it out and resell it on Elf-Bay.
Then six months later they will resell it back to you.
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 31, 2019, 03:27:21 AM
Yup, grabbed the wrong roll of gasket paper, throwing that one out...
Don't throw it out, BURN IT.
If you just throw it out those little scoundrels' will fish it out and resell it on Elf-Bay.
Then six months later they will resell it back to you.
Gerald.
Those little swarfheads! I think I have bought it 3 times...    :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on July 31, 2019, 03:38:34 PM
There's that gigantic penny again! :Lol:

Sorry to hear about the gasket tribulations. You didn't buy the "light" type of gasket paper did you? That kind has all the reclaimed CO2 from light beer built into the centre, so it leaks. (so I'm told, anyway) :insane:

Permatex or GE silicone are your friends.  :old:

I second the motion about burning the bad material to prevent elf resale shenanigans. While you're at it, maybe burn the waterskis and ski boat from their recent birdbath exploits..... :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 31, 2019, 07:09:47 PM
Got it taken down this morning and the gaskets and rest of that roll turned into birds nest kits. Going to redo the gaskets and a couple of places will get a bit of rtv for extra seal where the flanges are very narrow around the bolt holes.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on July 31, 2019, 11:30:13 PM
Not much shop time today, too nice outside to stay indoors. Did get the gaskets all remade and the cylinder reassembled with a little rtv as extra sealant. The steam chest gaskets are ready, still meed to get the throttle slider moving a bit freer on the valve rod, then can reassemble the steam chest and reconnect all the valve rods to the levers. Maybe ready for another pressure test tomorrow.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 01, 2019, 04:19:59 PM
And we have liftoff!!   :whoohoo: :cartwheel:
Got the throttle valve slider freed up better on the valve rod, and the other two sliders were just touching the edge of the gasket at the end of travel so trimmed that gasket edge back a bit. Got the timing set, and off it went!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9R-AUYXyY9Q
I noticed that there were some spots where it did not want to self start, so slowly turned the crank over by hand with low pressure from the compressor, and found that there is a spot in the center of travel on each cylinder where the pressure leaks straight through to the exhaust. I suspect that the valve geometry is slightly off - either one wall between the chambers is too far to one side, or is too thin, connecting two ports to a third at one spot. Most likely the wall is a touch too far to one side (remember these valves have three chambers, the end two connected, rather than the single chamber of a normal D-valve). So, will take the steam chest off again and turn the valve on it side and sight along the walls, see where it is going bad. I may need to remake the sliders if this is the problem.
That issue aside, the rest of the engine is performing very well, you can hear the speed go up and down as the throttle lever is moved, and it runs both directions just fine. Very smooth too, no binding spots. Very happy with that!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on August 01, 2019, 04:42:44 PM
Beautiful runner Chris! well done.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:  :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: mike mott on August 01, 2019, 05:01:51 PM
Very nice Chris that does sound sharp, Kudos to you.

Mike
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 01, 2019, 05:24:28 PM
Thanks guys! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:


I opened up the steam chest again, and did some measurements on the ports and on the valve sliders, suspicion confirmed: a couple of the ports are two or three thousandths wide, and the center chambers on the sliders are one to two thou wide from the design. Very small difference, but just enough to create a spot in the middle of the valve travel (which is only .084 total) where the valve center chamber is spanning three ports rather than two, letting pressure go from inlet direct to the exhaust. If the engine stops in one of those two spots, when moving in either direction, it will not self start again.


So, I am going to remake the two sliders, to get that chamber just under the measurements rather than just over.

 :thinking: :thinking: :thinking:


Hmmm... wonder if JB weld would stick good enough to put a bit on that edge of the wall between the slider chambers to thicken it up again.... Would be a quick test, faster than remaking the sliders from scratch.... Seems worth a try... There is no mechanical force on that position, it is not structural, just an edge to the valve chamber. Think I'll clean it with alcohol then put on some JB and let it cure up while I take a book out on the porch!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on August 01, 2019, 06:12:19 PM
Hello Chris,

Boy that is a smooth running little engine, great job  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on August 01, 2019, 06:44:18 PM
Hi Chris, Just FYI in my experience the JB Weld does not bond well to brass and bronze, most epoxies don't, unless there's a mechanical keying feature of some sort. Thin layers flake off easily, no matter how clean the metal is. A dab of silver solder (not soft solder of course) applied then filed back may work better than JB Weld. A good heatsink all around the valve would be good to reduce the likelihood of the thing evaporating in front of you under heating. Good luck with it. :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 01, 2019, 08:04:11 PM
Hi Chris, Just FYI in my experience the JB Weld does not bond well to brass and bronze, most epoxies don't, unless there's a mechanical keying feature of some sort. Thin layers flake off easily, no matter how clean the metal is. A dab of silver solder (not soft solder of course) applied then filed back may work better than JB Weld. A good heatsink all around the valve would be good to reduce the likelihood of the thing evaporating in front of you under heating. Good luck with it. :ThumbsUp:
Good to know!  The silver solder idea is a good one, if I can get a thicker blob to take there rather than running out thin - without a seam to wick into that should be do-able. Worth a try, at worst I need to remake the valve slider, which is the alternate anyway.
 :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on August 01, 2019, 09:13:08 PM
Thinking about it further - you might try arranging the part with the face you want the silver solder blob on to be horizontal. If you place a piece of rusty steel in front of it vertically on the sliding face, like a dam, with the top of it just above where you want the puddle to be, it will hopefully provide a "stop" for the liquid solder, which will not run out suddenly- as it could with no dam. The rust (or liquid paper painted on the steel) will stop the solder sticking the steel dam to the valve surface.

You know, the damn dam!  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 01, 2019, 09:19:36 PM
Thinking about it further - you might try arranging the part with the face you want the silver solder blob on to be horizontal. If you place a piece of rusty steel in front of it vertically on the sliding face, like a dam, with the top of it just above where you want the puddle to be, it will hopefully provide a "stop" for the liquid solder, which will not run out suddenly- as it could with no dam. The rust (or liquid paper painted on the steel) will stop the solder sticking the steel dam to the valve surface.

You know, the damn dam!  :Lol:
I have Nicrobraze, could paint that around the area, it prevents solder from travelling (like liquid paper).


EDIT:

Just went back and looked at the sliders, which I had put on some JB QuikWeld at lunchtime. Its about set hard (going to leave it longer to be safe), and it appears to be sticking to the brass quite well. Since that experiment is already under way, going to let that cure more and trim it, see how it works out. Worst case is just one more disassembly, getting pretty quick at that sequence now...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on August 01, 2019, 10:39:09 PM
Looks great Chis.  The throttle response is terrific.   :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on August 01, 2019, 11:26:08 PM
Lovely engine Chris!! A great runner in a very small package.--Brian
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 02, 2019, 12:50:02 AM
Thanks guys!  After the epoxy cured up (this was the 'Qwik' version so not overnight) I trimmed the edges with a diamond bur in the air tool, and reassembled to see how it goes. All took right off again, so I grabbed the camera and got a quick video showing it both self-starting and also running without the drill chuck/flywheel on it, runs fine with no flywheel at all, like the original.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGHTeWnXK8s

So, a very good day!   :wine1:
Next steps will be to get the exposed brass nuts/etc a bit of gray paint to make them match the steel, and then get the drive gear mounted (gear was made back when the steering gear was made). Then I can start in on the linkages to connect up the control rod from the front cab position - this throttle connects to the left-hand lever hanging from the roof up at the front operator station. One direction turns the tracks left, the other direction on the engine turns them to the right (this is a rear-steer/front-drive setup).
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: mike mott on August 02, 2019, 01:14:52 AM
Nicely done Chris, I would be a very happy camper with that result.

Mike
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on August 02, 2019, 02:19:46 AM
 :pinkelephant: awesome Dog just another cog in the wheel..... :whoohoo:


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 03, 2019, 12:18:21 AM
Thanks Don/Mike!


No work on the model today, was off at the Finger Lakes Live Steamers event, they are celebrating their 50th anniversary with a big meet, tons of trains there, from G1 up through 7-1/2 (7-3/4?) gauge track, miles of track. Took a bunch of photos/video, will post some tomorrow.  I took the Lombard model along, the editor of Live Steam magazine was there, he invited me to display it at his booth. Very fun day, but time for dinner and a nap...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on August 03, 2019, 08:41:58 AM
Most people would be 'over the moon' to have built than sweet running little engine as a stand-alone project  :whoohoo:

But for Chris (and the elves) it's just a tiny part of the real project  :praise2: :praise2: :praise2:

Gonna miss this thread when you finally sign off on it, Chris, it's been an education as well as great entertainment  :cheers:

Mike.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 03, 2019, 09:15:53 PM

As promised, here are a bunch of photos and a video from the event yesterday, the Finger Lakes Like Steamers held their 50th anniversary event this weekend. Quite a few trains/people turned out for it, this is a sampling of what was there.

[youtube1]https://youtu.be/dEMkpumvsZw[/youtube1]

(https://i.postimg.cc/5Nvz7pjT/IMG-1876a.jpg)


(https://i.postimg.cc/XYbCTFCJ/IMG-1878a.jpg)


(https://i.postimg.cc/5tPQYRkY/IMG-1880a.jpg)


(https://i.postimg.cc/sXvQp4tn/IMG-1883a.jpg)


(https://i.postimg.cc/y8yZBdmT/IMG-1884a.jpg)


(https://i.postimg.cc/MKkMQRtD/IMG-1885a.jpg)


(https://i.postimg.cc/vTn4KH8f/IMG-1886a.jpg)


(https://i.postimg.cc/k4zVwtC7/IMG-1889a.jpg)


(https://i.postimg.cc/kXxVF4pd/IMG-1891a.jpg)


(https://i.postimg.cc/vmmcsvHQ/IMG-1895a.jpg)


(https://i.postimg.cc/JzxGvF86/IMG-1897a.jpg)


(https://i.postimg.cc/xCJ8kTzh/IMG-1898a.jpg)


(https://i.postimg.cc/W4ftbJh0/IMG-1899a.jpg)


(https://i.postimg.cc/Wb63qydN/IMG-1900a.jpg)


(https://i.postimg.cc/GtvpQ7zj/IMG-1903a.jpg)


(https://i.postimg.cc/Pxgx1sbx/IMG-1905a.jpg)


(https://i.postimg.cc/tR67pJyV/IMG-1908a.jpg)


(https://i.postimg.cc/ZKhnRmKs/IMG-1914a.jpg)


(https://i.postimg.cc/vZYmrvnW/IMG-1916a.jpg)


(https://i.postimg.cc/fW1Xf1WY/IMG-1917a.jpg)


(https://i.postimg.cc/hjj4k4sh/IMG-1918a.jpg)


(https://i.postimg.cc/xC4jnrp5/IMG-1922a.jpg)


(https://i.postimg.cc/GpzhgTkZ/IMG-1923a.jpg)


(https://i.postimg.cc/4yHf38rg/IMG-1925a.jpg)


(https://i.postimg.cc/Sx6K8vjQ/IMG-1932a.jpg)


(https://i.postimg.cc/25CSx7BQ/IMG-1934a.jpg)


(https://i.postimg.cc/mgfDPsL6/IMG-1935a.jpg)


(https://i.postimg.cc/BZztGFd3/IMG-1936a.jpg)


(https://i.postimg.cc/wvfMMRMh/IMG-1938a.jpg)


(https://i.postimg.cc/kGL5FrxG/IMG-1939a.jpg)


(https://i.postimg.cc/LsSnbMGZ/IMG-1940a.jpg)


(https://i.postimg.cc/JhQGw2WY/IMG-1942a.jpg)


(https://i.postimg.cc/rmFzqNVV/IMG-1945a.jpg)


(https://i.postimg.cc/XqrJCNBt/IMG-1953a.jpg)


(https://i.postimg.cc/SNzRQshM/IMG-1957a.jpg)


(https://i.postimg.cc/9XDZTc2W/IMG-1961a.jpg)


(https://i.postimg.cc/5jcxQBVF/IMG-1963a.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on August 03, 2019, 09:27:56 PM
Hello Chris,

Thank you for sharing these beautiful photos and the video. Do you know why the Black Engine with the Orange painted windows sounds so different???? Man that things sounds powerful.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 03, 2019, 09:32:45 PM
Hello Chris,

Thank you for sharing these beautiful photos and the video. Do you know why the Black Engine with the Orange painted windows sounds so different???? Man that things sounds powerful.

Have a great day,
Thomas
That one belongs to Dave Brush, editor at Live Steam magazine. I asked him about the sound - it is powered by an electric motor, and he has a sound generator in it with a big speaker from an old stereo system. In person, you can really feel the rumble from it. Most of the other trains were live steam, couple had electric motors (mainly the diesel locos). Quite a fun day out there, they have miles of track out through the woods, several bridges and trestles, several different gauge tracks.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on August 03, 2019, 09:39:49 PM
Hey again Chris,

Thank you, sure sounds like a steam engine.

The No.5 Nickel Rate Road is my favorite  :LittleAngel:

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 03, 2019, 09:41:55 PM
That one is great!
Its hard to tell the scale on the pics of  the stationary models - the flywheels on that one are only about 2" diameter, the detail and finish on those models is just stunning.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on August 03, 2019, 10:18:58 PM
Great pictures Chris. I especially like the "cow catchers" on the front of the old steam trains.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 03, 2019, 10:59:47 PM
And after all the work on the small steering engine, it is not very visible on the finished model!   :shrug:   You can get a decent look at it through the side doors of the cab, here from the right side:
(https://i.postimg.cc/bJZXpZtD/IMG-5525.jpg)
and from the left, looking at the back of the engine:
(https://i.postimg.cc/DzjV9r83/IMG-5526.jpg)
Just masked off the moving parts, taking it to my handyt-dandy paint booth (cardboard sheets on an old workbench) to give it a shot of grey paint to blend in the brass parts...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on August 03, 2019, 11:58:33 PM
Hi Chris, looking good and i like the other stationary engines... I do have a triple expansion to Finish , just wondering if there are any original drawings of beam engines over there . there are lots of works drawings of Loco's available but would love to access some older beam engines ?? also there are 30 photos on that post and i thought we were only allowed 8 ??

Willy :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 04, 2019, 12:02:56 AM
Hi Chris, looking good and i like the other stationary engines... I do have a triple expansion to Finish , just wondering if there are any original drawings of beam engines over there . there are lots of works drawings of Loco's available but would love to access some older beam engines ??

Willy :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:


I don't know of any good sources for beam engine plans. Nearest surviving one I know of is the pumping engine museum in Hamilton Canada, great machine. Are ther plans available from places like the Kew museum?
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on August 04, 2019, 12:13:54 AM
Willy--check your personal messages. I've sent you a link to a set of beam engine plans.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on August 04, 2019, 06:17:41 AM
Thanks for the pics of the Steam-up - looks like a lot of fun!

And your steering engine looks great!  I can see how it feels like a lot of work to be hidden inside like that, but its all these details that make your Marion such an amazing model!  Just love it!  :ThumbsUp:

Thanks for taking the time to post all your progress, Chris! I may not post as often as I should, but I'm always following along and enjoying the ride!  :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: fumopuc on August 04, 2019, 08:20:14 AM
Hi Chris, sweet little engine, another step forward.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 05, 2019, 12:38:43 AM
Thanks all, getting very close now. Today I got the last few bits to connect up the throttle on the steering engine, a crank arm to turn the corner from up at the ceiling to down to the engine, plus a few more clevises and rods. Loctite is setting on some of that, so tomorrow should be good to go for final assembly. There are a bunch of little spots to touch up the paint around the model too. Getting ready for a big rc sub run next weekend too...


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 05, 2019, 06:47:40 PM
Last parts all assembled onto the model, steering engine all bolted in and linked up, so its time for final painting. Touched up the black areas on the frame/floor/boom that got dinged up during the build, and have gotten a coat of grey onto the pipework and linkages. Still need to spot some of the red nuts/bolts on the outside of the cab, and re-touch any thin spots from the first coats. Below are a few photos showing the current state:
Main engine space with one side wall removed...
(https://i.postimg.cc/C1XSQGBP/IMG-5530.jpg)
Pipework in main engine spaces, and front of the boiler...
(https://i.postimg.cc/bNXq0Rjd/IMG-5532.jpg)
Main hoist and slew engine, lots of pipes, braces, valves....
(https://i.postimg.cc/Pq6tmstk/IMG-5533.jpg)
Steering engine and backhead of boiler

(https://i.postimg.cc/CMnFfQXW/IMG-5535.jpg)
Crowd engine on main boom

(https://i.postimg.cc/d3CwPhGq/IMG-5537.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: mike mott on August 05, 2019, 06:55:04 PM
What a stunning piece of modelwork Chris!!

Mike
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 05, 2019, 07:00:53 PM
What a stunning piece of modelwork Chris!!

Mike
Thanks very much Mike - I can't wait to get it out to the real machine later this month for some joint photos!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: RonGinger on August 05, 2019, 07:44:56 PM
Chris, How about doing a photo book of this model. I did one using Google Photos that I was quite pleased with. It wasn't hard to put together and its setup so anyone can order one, they are printed to order and you  make a few dollars for everyone sold. Id be happy to pay $20-25 to have a bound book of photos.

Several in process photos plus several all around finished photos. Maybe throw in a couple of the big one after that photo shoot, but the model is the focus.

I know there are many places that do this- Google Photos is just the one I used but I have heard of BookBay, Lulu,Blurb.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 05, 2019, 08:03:17 PM
Chris, How about doing a photo book of this model. I did one using Google Photos that I was quite pleased with. It wasn't hard to put together and its setup so anyone can order one, they are printed to order and you  make a few dollars for everyone sold. Id be happy to pay $20-25 to have a bound book of photos.

Several in process photos plus several all around finished photos. Maybe throw in a couple of the big one after that photo shoot, but the model is the focus.

I know there are many places that do this- Google Photos is just the one I used but I have heard of BookBay, Lulu,Blurb.


Hi Ron,  I'll look into it. Live Steam magazine will be starting a new series on this build, but not till next summer when the Lombard series is done, and that series will run a number of years. A photo book would be a great idea in the meantime, maybe one on the Lombard too, if not one combined. Will check those places out.


Current word on the photo day at the big shovel is August 21st, will also be doing a talk for a kids group visiting the shovel that day too. Hope the weather cooperates!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on August 05, 2019, 08:37:01 PM
Truly inspirational, Chris!  We need a full body shot.  You may not be able to get far enough away from it in the shop to take a full picture, but when you get it outside, we wanna see one!

Looking forward to the video too! :)

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: fumopuc on August 05, 2019, 09:03:00 PM
Hi Chris, impressive
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 05, 2019, 09:05:49 PM
Truly inspirational, Chris!  We need a full body shot.  You may not be able to get far enough away from it in the shop to take a full picture, but when you get it outside, we wanna see one!

Looking forward to the video too! :)

Kim
Tough to get it all in, have to back into the corner, and the lighting is not the best (should get much better views outside). Here is how it looks now, the roof and one wall are still off for the paintwork for now...
(https://i.postimg.cc/7YbWK5Sc/IMG-5544.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/fR9gh12f/IMG-5545.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/nc5wgnkL/IMG-5547.jpg)
A video with all the functions/engines is planned too, probably get to that next week.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on August 05, 2019, 09:08:46 PM
Cool!  Thanks for the pictures - that guy's BIG!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 05, 2019, 09:26:20 PM
Cool!  Thanks for the pictures - that guy's BIG!
Kim
About 54" long (137 cm) and just under 100 pounds (43 kg)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on August 05, 2019, 09:26:53 PM
Hello Chris,

Incredible, just incredible.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on August 05, 2019, 10:09:40 PM
The shovel looks superb Chris. Love the interior shots. Thanks for the photo's!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: oh and here's some for you    :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Looks like Bucket Bob's passed out at the front of the shovel again. Too many Elfensteiner stubbies maybe. Might be a pile of empties under the butane ash chute. You gotta get a fire going in that boiler soon so the elves can see it ain't a beer cooler!  :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Don1966 on August 05, 2019, 10:14:37 PM
Dog, dog, dog the awesomeness of your project is overwhelming! Superb in every sense of the word excellent. Your talents are amazing Chris and as I said you have my respect and envy....... :praise2:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 05, 2019, 11:05:12 PM
Thanks very much guys! Its going to be wierd not working on this one all the time, been at it for so long. Lots of other projects to keep busy on though!
 :cheers:

And CNR - Bucket Bob and the other elves were up partying pretty late last night, celebrating the completion of the model. Still haven't found Elfric, though there are odd noises coming from the back of the refridgerator...   :Lol:

More photos/videos coming this next week, got a big submarine run this weekend that I need to get ready for though. Thanks very much for all those that stopped by, the help/tips/encouragement/ideas/questions were very helpful!!!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: chucketn on August 05, 2019, 11:15:13 PM
Your work is so awesome, Chris. As a young boy(I'm approaching 70 years), when going to visit Grandma And Grandpa in Scranton, PA, we often passed by old abandon strip mines that had Steam Shovels, but nothing as grand as your Marion.

Chuck :NotWorthy:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gunna on August 06, 2019, 09:46:50 AM
I can't add any more than what has been already said Chris, but I have read this thread almost daily from day one and am so impressed with everything. I have enjoyed the actions of the little people as well. :lolb: My congratulations to be added to everyone elses.
Ian.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on August 06, 2019, 12:26:16 PM
Pretty spectacular!   :ThumbsUp: :cheers:

Are you going to be able to color/paint the chain? 
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 06, 2019, 12:38:45 PM
Pretty spectacular!   :ThumbsUp: :cheers:

Are you going to be able to color/paint the chain?
The chain was originally chromed, I used a torch to dull it down and color it a bit, but not as much as I hoped. Other experiments didn't get it any better, so this is were I left it. This chain was the closest in size and shape that I could find, which is the most important thing. Chemical blackening doesn't work well for this stainless, and paint doesn't work well for chain.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 06, 2019, 12:39:33 PM
I can't add any more than what has been already said Chris, but I have read this thread almost daily from day one and am so impressed with everything. I have enjoyed the actions of the little people as well. :lolb: My congratulations to be added to everyone elses.
Ian.
Thanks Ian!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: fumopuc on August 10, 2019, 12:55:52 PM
Hi Chris,
if there are any problems to find a new project, may this will help to close the gap.
http://www.ferroviefelettane.it/La_mia_Bucyrus_Erie_Crane/Bucyrus_Erie_Crane.htm


Here a video of some testing with compressed air.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHawAQhZ404


Have Fun. Shortly found by a fellow member in our German forum.

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: RonGinger on August 10, 2019, 01:35:22 PM
Quote
The chain was originally chromed, I used a torch to dull it down and color it a bit, but not as much as I hoped. Other experiments didn't get it any better, so this is were I left it. This chain was the closest in size and shape that I could find, which is the most important thing. Chemical blackening doesn't work well for this stainless, and paint doesn't work well for chain.

So, why not make your chain, you have made everything else.  >:D

I did that for the steering chain on my MINNIE traction engine. I only needed about 8 inches so it wasn't a major job. I made a mandrel to the inside shape of the link, wound on wire like for a spring, then sliced it with a Dremel cutoff wheel. The link then hooked together and just a slight twist of the link closed the slot. I made a jig to hold the links in a nice line and silver soldered them closed.

There are also some You tube videos showing chain making machines. That would be a cool project.

I guess I am really trying to find ways to keep this topic open, it has become a regular daily boost to me and I dont want to see it end.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 11, 2019, 03:19:40 AM
Hi Chris,
if there are any problems to find a new project, may this will help to close the gap.
http://www.ferroviefelettane.it/La_mia_Bucyrus_Erie_Crane/Bucyrus_Erie_Crane.htm (http://www.ferroviefelettane.it/La_mia_Bucyrus_Erie_Crane/Bucyrus_Erie_Crane.htm)


Here a video of some testing with compressed air.


[youtube1]https://youtu.be/XHawAQhZ404[/youtube1]


Have Fun. Shortly found by a fellow member in our German forum.
That is incredible!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 11, 2019, 03:22:47 AM
Quote
The chain was originally chromed, I used a torch to dull it down and color it a bit, but not as much as I hoped. Other experiments didn't get it any better, so this is were I left it. This chain was the closest in size and shape that I could find, which is the most important thing. Chemical blackening doesn't work well for this stainless, and paint doesn't work well for chain.

So, why not make your chain, you have made everything else.  >:D

I did that for the steering chain on my MINNIE traction engine. I only needed about 8 inches so it wasn't a major job. I made a mandrel to the inside shape of the link, wound on wire like for a spring, then sliced it with a Dremel cutoff wheel. The link then hooked together and just a slight twist of the link closed the slot. I made a jig to hold the links in a nice line and silver soldered them closed.

There are also some You tube videos showing chain making machines. That would be a cool project.

I guess I am really trying to find ways to keep this topic open, it has become a regular daily boost to me and I dont want to see it end.


I do have drawings I made up for a bending jig sized for these links, now that the rest is done I do want to try it out, to get the proper sized chain. This weekend is a big submarine run, maybe try it next week. Still got lots more pics and videos to come on this one...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 13, 2019, 03:11:41 PM
Okay, back from Indiana yesterday from the big RC submarine meet in Carmel (outside Indianapolis) - reason for no updates on the Marion model. Great time, we had a very good turnout (I think it was 28 skippers, most with 2 to 4 subs each). Weather was great, fun time all the way around. We run in the big reflecting pool at the war memorial park there:
(https://i.postimg.cc/DzhW8fKc/IMG-1996a.jpg)
Tents set up at the edge for shade (Indiana in summer can be quite hot, this weekend was comfortable).
(https://i.postimg.cc/sXDv4nxQ/IMG-2010a.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/fbvVX4zQ/IMG-2012a.jpg)
Big tent back on the lawn for everyone to set up the models...
(https://i.postimg.cc/jSPwxwB5/IMG-2037a.jpg)
Here are a few shots of the models running - at times we had a dozen in the water together. This is my little Delphin sub
(https://i.postimg.cc/T1B1Gf9g/IMG-1984a.jpg)
Gregs version of the Delphin, 50% smaller than mine
(https://i.postimg.cc/mZnt7ysk/IMG-2002a.jpg)
A Seaview (from the old movie/series)

(https://i.postimg.cc/RV3JYbRw/IMG-2000a.jpg)
and the Flying Sub from same series
(https://i.postimg.cc/mZpF8GQb/IMG-2034a.jpg)
Big model of the Holland 6, one of the very early submarines
(https://i.postimg.cc/qM96HXbS/IMG-2021a.jpg)
my Russian Alfa:
(https://i.postimg.cc/rsDsvKSq/IMG-2015a.jpg)
Another modern sub
(https://i.postimg.cc/qRbgb86m/IMG-1988a.jpg)

Now, to tie this post into the Marion build  :embarassed:   I did stop off in Marion Ohio on the way past, at the site of the original Marion Steam Shovel factory. Not much left there now, When Bucyrus bought them out in the 90's they shut it all down and demolished most everything. Then THEY were later bought out by Caterpillar. There is a tiny grass area with one of the buckets from a shovel...
(https://i.postimg.cc/0N9Q9tpW/IMG-1971a.jpg)
and a couple of historic marker plaques
(https://i.postimg.cc/g2VjF96L/IMG-1970a.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/sgdxNf1R/IMG-1967a.jpg)
This is a view across the street to where the main buildings were. Mostly gone, I think the long brick buildings in the back were part of the factory (I sent a question in to the Marion historical society asking about that). They look like the buildings in the old catalogs and post cards. I drove around them, they are all bricked up, no windows or doors left, parts of one have a auto repair company in it.

(https://i.postimg.cc/MKjX5f6D/IMG-1974a.jpg)
Interesting to see the place, wish there was more left.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on August 13, 2019, 03:35:16 PM
Hello Chris,

Great photos and a wonderful location for the Sub-regatta. Looks like a huge verity of Subs on display in the tent. Sure wish you had been standing next to the shovel bucket for a reference. Thanks for sharing.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 13, 2019, 04:04:56 PM
Hello Chris,

Great photos and a wonderful location for the Sub-regatta. Looks like a huge verity of Subs on display in the tent. Sure wish you had been standing next to the shovel bucket for a reference. Thanks for sharing.

Have a great day,
Thomas
The bucket is big enough to stand in - I was by myself so no good way to get in the picture. Naturally no one else walking along nearby either. Its a great pond for the subs, they picked Indiana as a central spot to get skippers from all over to attend, I just wish it was closer to home (about 9-1/2 hour drive each way) but we get a group rate at a nice hotel and its a great time there. Most years I stop in at a zoo or museum to break up the drive and walk around for a few hours.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 13, 2019, 08:39:43 PM
For any in the western New York State area that are interested, the historical society is holding a open visit to the Marion shovel in LeRoy on the 21st, I'll have the model there and be talking on how the machine works. It was originally going to be a small kids group, but got opened up to the general public - rare chance to get in to see the machine up close, normally you are held back behind a fence 20 feet away.

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: scc on August 13, 2019, 09:27:34 PM
Absolutely stunning :praise2: :praise2: :praise2:   Chris, I love the way you say in post 4409 "I've been at it so long"    These things are relative....I would be unable to make such a model, but even if I could it would take me a lifetime!!!     Congratulations       Terry
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on August 13, 2019, 10:06:49 PM
Thanks for the pics of the sub meet, it looks like fun. Some great models there. I guess you guys don't do a BBQ for lunch, do you? You probably order >wait for it< submarine sandwiches!  :cheers:

(sorry)  :facepalm:

Really liked the pics of the old Marion factory too, and the plaques and bucket. I checked it out on google maps too, by calling up Marion Ohio and "flying over" the city looking for rr tracks and old buildings. Having found it, anyone else looking could use Marion Ohio W Center St as search keywords and probably fly right to it! Shame all the doors and windows are closed up. For a relatively small site they sure produced some massive machines! (and a little coal smoke too, likely, from the foundry)

Have fun on the 21st! I predict you will be doing a few shovel demos. Be sure to lock up the Elfensteiner stubbies before you leave for the event, or the shop elves will get into them and wreak havoc..... :DrinkPint:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 13, 2019, 11:33:00 PM
Thanks guys!

Though all of you punsters have missed out on a really good one. A friend of mine replied to the note about the trip out to the big sister of the Marion model next week, and asked if being a small version made the model a 'Marionette'!   :ROFL:

You guys are slipping! 
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on August 13, 2019, 11:40:27 PM
Hi Chris , that's clever ..I may have come up with that eventually ...but did not want to belittle your work   :lolb: :Jester:

Willy
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 14, 2019, 09:10:56 PM
Yesterday and today I did some experimenting with making the proper size chain for the hoist chain, made it up like a typical rod bending jig with central pins, a guide on one side, and a nose that rotates around the fixed end pin to form the wire.
Does bend it fine, but cannot get it to join up the ends effectively to finish off a link. So, went onto youtube/google to see how commercial chain is made. Appears that they do both ends at once, with a pair of forming blocks, one to get the two ends around to 90 degrees, then ones in from the ends to take the link the rest of the way round. Anyone ever try making chain this way? This is fairly small chain, 0.09375 wire, links are .4375 x .3125 outside measurements. The chain I have on the model is the right size, but the links are oval, rather than straight down the sides like the original. It works fine, but its one of those little details that would be nice to do...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on August 14, 2019, 09:55:59 PM
Hi Chris, When I first started work the firm I was with had a number of 4 slide machines making chain, like the one shown after minute 2:29 in the video link below. At minute 3:19 you can see a rod called the backstop jaw come forward to push the back wall of the link forward to straighten and hold it. The side roller cams come around the link ends to roll it closed, usually with a little extra bend "past centre" to get the front of the link squarish. The 4 slides at the firm were used to make all kinds of bent wire and flat strip parts. It was a fun part of my job to develop new tooling and cams for the machines to make new parts. Maybe the video and the notes above will give you some ideas to make your chain tooling to get flat links. If you get out the popcorn  :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: and show the video to the shop elves they may build their own 4 slide machine and start cranking out scale chain by the mile for sale to other hobbyists!  :Lol: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajByZBP9hdA
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 14, 2019, 10:09:09 PM
CNR - that is like another video I found, only difference is the other one did the last two arms at the same time rather than a 1-2 punch, basically the same, doing it 1-2 would let the formers get in without hitting each other. That kind of thing overall would help solve one of the issues I am getting, where the wire wants to pull around with the forming nose. The trick is to make it all much smaller - the normal wire forming bender needs some distance for the pivot to have some strength. Going to take a bit of thought and some playing in Fusion to work something out.


Now, since you have already made these, should be no problem to knock one out to make a few feet of chain!   ;D   

One thing I have not tried is to hammer or squeeze the existing chain to straighten the sides, have some spare lengths that could be experimented on. Maybe make a little mandrel to go in the link to keep it from changing the radius on the ends while the middle is whacked upon by Mongo the blacksmith elf...   :thinking:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 14, 2019, 10:24:00 PM
Ooh - on to something there!  Hammering the link flatter on the sides is tough, would need a grooved holder, so pulled a medium sized ChannelLock pliers out of the drawer, which has large grooves running crosswise in the faces of the jaws. Slipped that around one link at a time, squeezed down, and it did flatten the center section without deforming the ends much. Here is a pic of the initial test, the two links on the right are straightened, the two on the left are as bought, with a pronounced arc in the center of the link:
(https://i.postimg.cc/vBV9bpvR/IMG-5551.jpg)
A subtle difference, but noticable. I think a little experimenting with the distance to squeeze, controlled either with a block between the grips or a little bit of rectangular bar in the link (which may be more consistant) will do the trick. The size of the wire in this chain is good, and the lengths of the links is good, it was that rounded center section that I object to. And I can do this with the existing chain, no need to make all those links....   :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: john mills on August 14, 2019, 11:00:18 PM
interesting video but it shows little of the actual forming the better reliant part was the wafios machine
the wire is pulled through the straitening rollers two blocks squeeze together putting a curve in the blank while two eve cutters put eve in the wire where it is cut the transporter takes the blank along to the forming mandrel where
a grip finger comes in from the rear into the curve already in the blank and holds the bank while the forming rollers bend the ends around one ahead of the other and it bends it under straight .fingers hold the blank while the
mandrel goes down twists the mandrel comes back up and the next blank feeds in.the curves on the mandrel are different on each side so when welded in the welding machine the link is squeezed so the metal is fed into the weld
thats what the vee is for ,when the weld is finished the link should now bee an even shape .after heat treatment the chain is pulled to the correct length stretched so it is the final shape.the columbus mackcinion machines
are similar but usually has straight sided mandrels they bothe like straight back for the link  to sit on so when welded and trim dies try to cut the weld flash the link does not turn  .

another machine is the multi ram  bender might be easier for small links.

I spent nearly 25 years making tooling machine parts what ever was requirer making chain.I programmed and run
cnc machinery .

John   
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on August 16, 2019, 06:57:02 PM
What you need to do is mill up a set of jaw inserts/dies for the Channellock pliers.  The lower die would have a Tee shaped slot in it, this slot would do 2 things.  First it would keep the chain in the proper orientation as it went through what are effectively crimping dies, and second by controlling the overall depth of this slot you could control how much you mashed the chain.  If you and the elves are sneaky enough, you could do a bunch of links in one squeeze - depending on the rigidity of the dies.

Put the chain in the crimping dies, squeeze the handle to mash the links, pull in fresh links, then lather - rinse - repeat until you're done.  Of course once you've done all the chain once, you'll need to twist the chain 90° and do it all again so that you get ALL the links.  It's either that or squeeze - twist - squeeze - twist, etc...  Which just sounds like a hassle to me.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 16, 2019, 08:16:06 PM
What you need to do is mill up a set of jaw inserts/dies for the Channellock pliers.  The lower die would have a Tee shaped slot in it, this slot would do 2 things.  First it would keep the chain in the proper orientation as it went through what are effectively crimping dies, and second by controlling the overall depth of this slot you could control how much you mashed the chain.  If you and the elves are sneaky enough, you could do a bunch of links in one squeeze - depending on the rigidity of the dies.

Put the chain in the crimping dies, squeeze the handle to mash the links, pull in fresh links, then lather - rinse - repeat until you're done.  Of course once you've done all the chain once, you'll need to twist the chain 90° and do it all again so that you get ALL the links.  It's either that or squeeze - twist - squeeze - twist, etc...  Which just sounds like a hassle to me.

Don
I like it! Something like this:
(https://i.postimg.cc/kgq9z0fp/Chain-Squeezer.jpg)
The pliers jaws are in blue - the tips set screw in place from the side, a screw through from the top one could be the depth-stop to keep the links consistant. Just run the chain in the slot, working down the length...
Will give it a try - thanks for the idea!!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 18, 2019, 10:43:28 PM
I made up the plier tips, but they did not work well since the Channellock pliers have the pivot in such a place that the tips do not meet the same depending on the opening, causing the channel in the tips to offset. So, wound up just using the grooves in the pliers with a spacer to get consistant widths. Looks much better, just like the photo I posted the other day.

Also, the town has moved the event out at the shovel from Wednesday to Friday due to weather concerns - will post photos on Friday evening!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on August 21, 2019, 08:07:01 PM
I would imagine that any of the slip-joint type pliers would also flop around like that.  If you ever have to do something like that again try either an old linesman's pliers or an old needle nose pliers.  Maybe they would have a more stable pivot point?

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 21, 2019, 08:38:08 PM
I would imagine that any of the slip-joint type pliers would also flop around like that.  If you ever have to do something like that again try either an old linesman's pliers or an old needle nose pliers.  Maybe they would have a more stable pivot point?

Don
I have linemans pliers that work, but the handles are shorter so less leverage. Visegrip ones could work too maybe.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 22, 2019, 08:50:22 PM
Going by the shop this afternoon, looked in to see the model,    :o
(https://i.postimg.cc/d3xFCvx1/IMG-5556.jpg)
Those !@#%!@ swarf-ing Shop Elves!!!
Aha! Caught them loading their car with it!
(https://i.postimg.cc/sxXy11Kq/IMG-5555.jpg)
 :ROFL:
Actually, all loaded up for the trip out to the real machine in LeRoy tomorrow morning to do a public talk on it and then get some portraits of the model with the real one!   8)
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on August 22, 2019, 09:07:08 PM
A clear instance of a lack of leadership here.  As manager ( yea, I know you hate to think of yourself as manager) but with a lack of clear management the elves have taken it upon them selves to make command level decisions on important issues.  Consider yourself lucky that you caught this in time and adverted a tragedy.  I hope that in the future you will take your management responsibilities, regarding the elves, seriously.  They are somewhat like dogs; lacking clear leadership, they will assume that responsibility themselves.  Come’on Chris.  Step up to the plate.  They just need a little leadership. :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 22, 2019, 09:24:45 PM
A clear instance of a lack of leadership here.  As manager ( yea, I know you hate to think of yourself as manager) but with a lack of clear management the elves have taken it upon them selves to make command level decisions on important issues.  Consider yourself lucky that you caught this in time and adverted a tragedy.  I hope that in the future you will take your management responsibilities, regarding the elves, seriously.  They are somewhat like dogs; lacking clear leadership, they will assume that responsibility themselves.  Come’on Chris.  Step up to the plate.  They just need a little leadership. :lolb:


Manager?  Thems fighten words...  Slowly I turned... Step, by, step...   :ThumbsDown:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on August 22, 2019, 10:27:52 PM
The good news is that there is not much room available for 32 coolers full of Elfensteiner stubbies in the car, as they originally planned ....... so there may be a chance that the shop elves will stay sober and behave themselves tomorrow!    :Lol:

Just kidding, hope you have a great day in LeRoy tomorrow.    :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Don't forget some snacks for the car ride..... :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 23, 2019, 09:49:59 PM
Today the LeRoy Historical Society opened up the gates out at the Marion shovel to the public, and I had the model there for photos and helped talk with the crowd about the shovel and how it worked. Great turnout, and LOTS of fun talking with everyone. Even one older gentleman there that worked in the quarry decades ago, he was there when they drove it out and parked it (he was 15 at the time). We will be setting up a time to visit with him for a longer talk, to document his stories.

Here is a link to a photo album with a selection of the pictures I took there today, will add more as I get them from the others that were taking pictures as well:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/iEGgqyqtY9eJ5YAd6

This coming week I'll also put together a video with the model running, showing all the functions. Stay tuned!
Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on August 23, 2019, 11:32:43 PM
Great pics Chris, thanks for sharing them. Look forward to the video!  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on August 24, 2019, 12:19:43 AM
Hello Chris,

Wonderful photos. To know how big your model actually was and then to see it sitting on one of the tracks really states how big that monster machine really is. You have done a unbelievable job on that build :praise2:

Thanks for sharing and have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on August 24, 2019, 05:47:34 AM
Great photo shoot, Chris!  Thanks for sharing them.
Boy, that sucker is big!  As Thomas said, seeing your huge model next to the real thing really put it in perspective!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: sco on August 24, 2019, 09:20:08 AM
Brilliant set of photos Chris!

When I look at the real thing I can't help wonder what it was like to work on - must have been incredibly noisy and hot.

Looking forward to the video,

Simon.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 24, 2019, 08:15:31 PM
Thanks guys! It was a great day, wonderful way to cap the build. Still have to make the video, we had a RC sub run today so maybe by mid week...
In the meantime, one of the local papers did the attached writeup on the day...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on August 24, 2019, 11:04:40 PM
That's pretty cool, Chris!  You're in the paper! :)
Nice little article too - and good picture!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Firebird on August 25, 2019, 07:57:30 AM
Hi Chris

Absolutely wonderful  :ThumbsUp:

Cheers

Rich
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: gbritnell on August 25, 2019, 01:08:20 PM
Hi Chris,
Just a fantastic job and the matching photos are great.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on August 25, 2019, 04:18:15 PM
Hi Chris,
 Great photos! You gotta be happy how it’s turned out. It must of been something standing close buy when she was working, which you don’t get conveyed on a video.
2 nights ago we stood in front of a Lancaster as they fired her up, 4 Merlin’s on the go! It was great!
How’s the shop party going? The team must of cleaned out the supplies by now..... bet the head guy still has a smile on his face after a day out like that.

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 25, 2019, 05:40:57 PM
Hi Chris,
 Great photos! You gotta be happy how it’s turned out. It must of been something standing close buy when she was working, which you don’t get conveyed on a video.
2 nights ago we stood in front of a Lancaster as they fired her up, 4 Merlin’s on the go! It was great!
How’s the shop party going? The team must of cleaned out the supplies by now..... bet the head guy still has a smile on his face after a day out like that.

Cheers Kerrin
Party is winding down, piles of little 1.2 ounce beer cans everywhere, elf leggings on the chandelier, the usual...    :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on August 27, 2019, 02:18:36 PM
Are you going to wake the Elves up and have them steam the beast?
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 27, 2019, 02:34:36 PM
Are you going to wake the Elves up and have them steam the beast?
Gerald.
I did wake them up for the video session this morning. Elfric kept trying to run off with the camera girl, and Bob was still part drunk and kept falling off the turntable... Did get some decent footage, need to edit it together into something coherant still...I am still waiting on some steam fittings from England (pressure gauge, that sort of thing). The supplier had a hiccup from his machinist, the CNC lathe broke down and delayed things a few weeks. Supposedly mailed this weekend.Given the long pipe runs, and some pesky leaks, not sure how well it will run on steam. Getting it outside is quite a pain in the cross-slide bearings too...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 27, 2019, 05:18:45 PM
Okay, here we go!  Made up a short video showing the functions/controls on the model.

I am definitely NO competition for Spielberg, but it does show the operations. The clip showing the tracks moving is quite short, since the table is short!

Enjoy!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvn3UPKpHto

This closes out this build, will be adding a summary over in the Showcase section soon. Thanks to you all for all the help and encouragement!
Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on August 27, 2019, 05:48:09 PM
Hello Chris,

Beautiful video. I am lost for words to give you the proper acknowledgment for this build. With all that everyone has already stated combined it seems to fall short. So I will simply say, an almost impossible job done very well.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on August 27, 2019, 07:03:22 PM
Chris--Absolute magic. Video works fine. You are my hero!!!---Brian
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: sco on August 27, 2019, 07:52:43 PM
Just brilliant Chris - incredible detective work to understand how it all worked never mind building a working model of it as well!

Top job!

Simon.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 27, 2019, 09:39:38 PM
Thanks guys!  Very much appreciated!   :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
And Youtube appears to have fixed its broken uploader, so I switched the video link back to them, so it now shows up inline in the post.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: jonesie on August 27, 2019, 09:57:37 PM
Chris a great job well done ,very impressive work on the design and build
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on August 27, 2019, 10:17:57 PM
Great video Chris, thanks for sharing it! My hat's off to you on the build, great work.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

(and possibly profitable, when you return the shop elves' 43,256 Elfensteiner cans and 17,374 stubby bottles   :o )    :cheers:

Look forward to your next project.     :whoohoo:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 27, 2019, 10:19:19 PM
Great video Chris, thanks for sharing it! My hat's off to you on the build, great work.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

(and possibly profitable, when you return the shop elves' 43,256 Elfensteiner cans and 17,374 stubby bottles   :o )    :cheers:

Look forward to your next project.     :whoohoo:
Profit is all gone, had to buy a truck to haul the cans/bottles in!   :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 27, 2019, 10:19:42 PM
Chris a great job well done ,very impressive work on the design and build
Thanks Jonesie!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on August 27, 2019, 10:39:54 PM
Amazing work, Chris!
Thanks for sharing it with us and thanks for that great video!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Jo on August 28, 2019, 06:48:05 AM
Well done Chris  8)

Sadly you have not made it to 300 pages on the build thread   :lolb: but there is always the next model build   ;) Speaking of which: Stanley Steamer next?

Jo
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Twizseven on August 28, 2019, 11:13:38 AM
Absolutely phenomenal build. The shop elves must be really proud of their master.
 I am in awe at what you have achieved in a relatively short time. Well done Sir.  :cheers:
Colin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on August 28, 2019, 12:01:32 PM
Thats a beautiful model and a really well documented build ...Something lovely to spire to  Looking forward to a new build

Willy
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 28, 2019, 02:37:22 PM
Well done Chris  8)

Sadly you have not made it to 300 pages on the build thread   :lolb: but there is always the next model build   ;) Speaking of which: Stanley Steamer next?

Jo
Well, we can fill in more pages with banter about Zee till he starts joining in again!   :Lol:


I've been toying with the plans for the Stanley engine, may have come up with a plan to join the three sections into one block to make machining the port faces possible....
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on August 28, 2019, 03:56:35 PM

[/quote]
Well, we can fill in more pages with banter about Zee till he starts joining in again!   :Lol:


I've been toying with the plans for the Stanley engine, may have come up with a plan to join the three sections into one block to make machining the port faces possible....
[/quote]

Does the plan include making a shaper attachment for your lathe, to machine the port faces just like the Stanley brothers (and lots of railway locomotive shops) did ?   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Vixen on August 28, 2019, 06:03:00 PM
Chris,

May I add my words of congratulations on finishing this magnificent project,

The engine is amazing in it's own right but you built it so quickly and also found the time for our daily updates

Well done. Bravo Bravo

Mike
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 28, 2019, 07:28:55 PM

Well, we can fill in more pages with banter about Zee till he starts joining in again!   :Lol:


I've been toying with the plans for the Stanley engine, may have come up with a plan to join the three sections into one block to make machining the port faces possible....


Does the plan include making a shaper attachment for your lathe, to machine the port faces just like the Stanley brothers (and lots of railway locomotive shops) did ?   :Lol:

No, I am going to split the cylinder block into three pieces so I can do the valve faces as normal, carving out the whole thing from solid would be beyond my equipment. That will be the fun part, keeping it looking original while splitting the parts. More on that in another thread soon.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 28, 2019, 07:29:22 PM
Chris,

May I add my words of congratulations on finishing this magnificent project,

The engine is amazing in it's own right but you built it so quickly and also found the time for our daily updates

Well done. Bravo Bravo

Mike


Thanks Mike!!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on August 28, 2019, 08:56:02 PM
What????  No commemorative first scoop into a gold plated spittoon?  No Hi-HO Silver AWAY...  Just a "Me and the elves are done with this one and we're movin on"?

If it wasn't for all the good work and fine pictures in the last 299 pages I'd be sorely disappointed that the ride is over.  You sure there's not some MINOR change you want to make to the machine so you can get the page count up to an even 300 pages?

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 28, 2019, 09:40:12 PM
What????  No commemorative first scoop into a gold plated spittoon?  No Hi-HO Silver AWAY...  Just a "Me and the elves are done with this one and we're movin on"?

If it wasn't for all the good work and fine pictures in the last 299 pages I'd be sorely disappointed that the ride is over.  You sure there's not some MINOR change you want to make to the machine so you can get the page count up to an even 300 pages?

Don
Oh, I am sure there will be more tweaks/parts added on this engine, still changing the other ones from time to time. Just like a boat, a steam engine is never really done!
And I had not noticed it was only at 299 pages - I have my forum settings to display 50 posts per page, so it was only at page 90. Guess we will have to discuss this some more to get one more page in! 

 :ROFL:
I will probably add a picture or two once the other fittings I ordered come in, so I can put on the pressure gauge, and definitely when it gets out for a steam test, however that turns out. There are enough little seeps in the valves that I'm not sure how well it can come up to pressure, but gotta give it a try.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on August 28, 2019, 11:55:36 PM
NOW WHAT AM I GOING TO DO WHEN HAVING MY MORNING COFFEE!!!!

The video is great Chis, you & the team have got to be justifiable proud of what you have built. It’s been a great ride, thanks for taking us along!

Next build......... 🤔🤔🤔🤔 oh yeah a big sand box with railway, a bunch of cars behind the Shay the elves will play for hours!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steam guy willy on August 29, 2019, 01:52:02 AM
Chris ...still following along and trying to get to the 300th page !! Will love to see it doing some work in a sand pit or somewhere !!

Willy.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Craig DeShong on August 29, 2019, 02:58:39 AM
I’m completely out of superlatives to describe my admiration for this build.  It’s been one of the true joys of accessing model engine maker and checking you daily progress.  Well done  Chris, we’ll done!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on August 29, 2019, 06:38:34 AM
Well, I for one think you can get to 300 pages with this build!  Lets see if you can do it!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Farmboy on August 29, 2019, 10:43:50 AM
I couldn't let this thread finish without adding my congratulations on completing such a mammoth project  :cheers:

I can't begin to imagine the sense of achievement you must feel, even with your history of amazing work. Great to see it running in the video  :cartwheel:

Of course, fitting the RC servos will take you well beyond the 300 pages . . .  :stir:

Mike.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Roger B on August 29, 2019, 12:05:38 PM
That was a most enjoyable and instructive video  :praise2:  :praise2:  :wine1:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Flyboy Jim on August 29, 2019, 02:36:00 PM
Great video Chris..............brought it all together.   :ThumbsUp: Congratulations.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 29, 2019, 03:11:03 PM
Thanks guys!
Had another idea for a operation video - I have a bag of chick grit left over from ballasting my Gauge 1 track, going to set that up for some scale 'gravel' to dig and dump into the rail car to the side...
(https://i.postimg.cc/BbL3ztHK/IMG-5627.jpg)
Stay tuned!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on August 29, 2019, 04:57:33 PM
Yup, first scoop into a rail car, that's close enough to a gold plated spittoon.  We can probably do without the Hi-Ho Silver too, we really don't want to give the elves any more ideas than they've already got.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: JC54 on August 29, 2019, 10:03:27 PM
This has been an amazing build. As a beginner I cannot remember how many useful ideas that I have found by watching this brilliant build. I think others have said it better than I can but GREAT.....
              Here' a picture of opencast mining as I remember as a child.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: wagnmkr on August 30, 2019, 12:01:02 AM
I haven't been around much, but I dropped by to see the end of another impressive build. It is amazing , really, and most of the good words are already taken. I hope you are going to have a rest now, and sit back with the elves and watch Z do his Stanley Steamer!

Cheers
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 30, 2019, 01:11:57 AM
This has been an amazing build. As a beginner I cannot remember how many useful ideas that I have found by watching this brilliant build. I think others have said it better than I can but GREAT.....
              Here' a picture of opencast mining as I remember as a child.
Thank, glad you enjoyed it. Thats a monster shovel in those pictures!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 30, 2019, 01:12:51 AM
I haven't been around much, but I dropped by to see the end of another impressive build. It is amazing , really, and most of the good words are already taken. I hope you are going to have a rest now, and sit back with the elves and watch Z do his Stanley Steamer!

Cheers
Hard part is getting the elves to stop hogging the couch!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: MJM460 on August 30, 2019, 01:09:19 PM
Hi. Chris, I am another in line to congratulate you on this amazing achievement.  I check in every day that I have internet (there are many holes in the net despite appearances), mostly silently so as not to interrupt your work, and just occasionally a comment.

I am in awe of your ability and achievement in all aspects of the project, from research, field measurements of such a complex machine, planning the machining operations and successfully executing the plans on such small machines considering the size of the project.

Well done.  You can justifiably bask in the glory of your achievement, and take some time off for some of your other activities.

MJM460

Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 30, 2019, 07:56:11 PM
Okay - this afternoon got a chance to try some 'real' digging with the model. Went pretty well, used a pile of chick grit (used to give baby chicks some clean grit for their digestion process). The chick grit makes a great scale small stone, I use it for ballast stone on my G1 track. The pile needs to be bigger, it tends to shove out of the way too easily so not enough makes it into the bucket. I'll get some more and try again soon.

Anyway, here is a little compilation of some fun digging!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2-mbGX5L00
 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Kim on August 30, 2019, 08:07:19 PM
Makes a pretty awesome Chick Grit scoop! :)    :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 30, 2019, 11:44:53 PM
Makes a pretty awesome Chick Grit scoop! :)    :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Kim
Going to be tough to train the chickens to pull the levers at the proper time....  :Jester:

I think I'll also make a little 3-sided wall to help restrain the 'gravel', can pile some over the top of it so the wall doesn't show. That will help keep most of it off the floor.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Captain Jerry on August 31, 2019, 01:02:39 AM
Build that wall! Build that wall!  Restrain that grit!  A little crowd action might help too.


Jerry
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Dave Otto on August 31, 2019, 01:39:31 AM
Very nice!

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on August 31, 2019, 05:45:32 PM
Now you need a steam powered bulldozer!
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on August 31, 2019, 06:04:30 PM
Now you need a steam powered bulldozer!
Gerald.


Did they have them? Have seen gas dozers, steam plowing engines, but a bull dozer?   :thinking:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on September 01, 2019, 12:13:03 AM
Hi Chris, Liked the digging video!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

I remember hearing a saying "you can't make chicken soup out of chicken grit" .... or something like that..... :Lol:

Re steam dozers I've not seen one in any book or in person. I did a quick Google on it and didn't find any either. However, as often happens in the way of things, someone somewhere in a remote workshop probably built one to solve a local problem, and a pic may surface. The Holt steam crawler or the Ruston Hornsby steam crawler both would have been good candidates for powering such a rig. Horse or ox drawn blades, the original bull dozers, were common according to Google. I have seen a few of these in museums in Ontario Canada. Same for earthmoving scrapers. Much smaller than their later gas-powered cousins, to suit the available 1 or 2 HP. Not sure why these ideas didn't catch on with steam power (unless they did in the remote workshops mentioned above). I have seen a pic of a steam roller pulling a conventional horse-drawn road grader in Judge Rhodes' roller book, so those fellows were on the track (so to speak) of a steam pulled blade. Neat topic!  :atcomputer:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Brian Rupnow on September 01, 2019, 01:41:58 AM
When I was about nine years old, my dad decided that our house needed a basement. So--My dad and my uncle Fred jacked the house up off the "sleepers" it had been built on, and proceeded to dig. (Sleepers were very large pine logs, flattened on the top side and laid on the ground as a perimeter frame to provide a base on which to build your house. If you decided to make your house bigger as your family grew, you just laid more "sleepers" on the ground and built on top of them,) They worked fine, but after about 20 years, dampness in the ground would start to rot them. Dad and uncle Fred dug by hand until they had enough space under the house and two ramps dug, one on each side of the house. The key was to have a deep enough hole and ramps for a horse to walk under the house.  Mind you, we were still living in the house at the time, so it was pretty darned exciting to a nine year old boy. Uncle Fred had what was called a "horse scoop". It was about 3 or 4 feet wide, with two long handles facing backwards so the man walking behind the scoop (and the horse) could lift the handles and the front of the scoop would dig into the ground. The amount of dirt it dug up was controlled by the man. The horse would walk down the ramp from one side, the man would lift the handles, the front of the scoop would dig in, the man would then force the handles down, the scoop would pivot and lift with a load of dirt, and the horse would walk up the ramp on the other side of the house. The dirt would then be dumped somewhere, the man and horse and scoop would travel around the house and then repeat---and repeat---and repeat. Once the basement was judged to be deep enough, cement footings were formed and poured, and then proper cement block walls built up. Then the jacks were carefully let down, and the house sat on the block walls.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 01, 2019, 02:26:25 AM
So that was a one-horse power bulldozer! Simple parts but sounds like it worked very well, and that arrangement would also clear the 'exhaust' at the same time.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: 10KPete on September 01, 2019, 05:49:47 AM
OK, gotta come up for air!

This shovel has to be the most magnificent model I've seen yet, anywhere. Because it functions!!! Brilliant. Congratulations on your accomplishment, Chris!

Oh, those horse drawn things were/are called "scrapers". The term is still used today on the modern large equipment. See what happens when you grow up with that stuff?

I'm going to miss my daily fix of Chris in the work shop. Wow, what a ride....

Pete
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 01, 2019, 02:08:43 PM
Thanks Pete!


BTW, looks like we got to the 300 page mark some of you mentioned!!  :cartwheel:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on September 01, 2019, 04:47:42 PM
Yup, well into page 300.  If you aren't careful we'll get into page 301.  At that point I don't see that you have ANY choice but to continue on to page 400, maybe even page 500.

Hmmmm…. wonder what the programmers for the software this site is using set as the maximum number of pages per thread?  Think we should try hitting it and see what happens?

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on September 01, 2019, 04:52:17 PM
Too late, on to page 400.  All we need to do is hire Yosemite Sam as a foreman to keep the elves moving in the right direction an it'll be no problem.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on September 01, 2019, 08:14:38 PM
We still have to see it under steam and RC that plus operational trials could take use to 500 easily.
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 01, 2019, 09:20:28 PM
We still have to see it under steam and RC that plus operational trials could take use to 500 easily.
Gerald.
I have no plans to RC this model, want to keep it looking original, and all the servos and connections would be too visible.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 01, 2019, 09:23:52 PM
Too late, on to page 400.  All we need to do is hire Yosemite Sam as a foreman to keep the elves moving in the right direction an it'll be no problem.
Yosemite Sam would be very motivating, but there would be SO many little bullet holes in the ceiling!!   :Lol:


To paraphrase him,  "When I say file, elf, I mean FILE, Elf!"   :Lol:   (if you don't get it, google Yosemite Sam and camel...
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: cnr6400 on September 01, 2019, 09:30:09 PM
One of my favorites is the one where Sam's struck it rich in the Texas oilfields:

"Maaaaaverick!  Get the dyneee-mite Maverick!"

The car Sam has is so long Maverick uses a scooter to ride from the cab to the rear door.....

The guys that wrote and illustrated those cartoons, and did the voices, were geniuses I think.

The ammo bill if Sam was the Elf foreman would be hefty too, as well as the ceiling hole patching bill. :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: derekwarner on September 01, 2019, 10:59:59 PM
I wouldn't worry about page numbers  :happyreader: too much, but what is impressive is the read views  :facepalm:
 
Topic: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel  (Read 302891 times) .....[and climbing]

Derek  :DrinkPint:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: kvom on September 02, 2019, 02:38:10 PM
Just think how many posts there would be if Zee were around.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on September 04, 2019, 10:32:54 PM
We still have to see it under steam and RC that plus operational trials could take use to 500 easily.
Gerald.
I have no plans to RC this model, want to keep it looking original, and all the servos and connections would be too visible.
That answers one question that was in the back of my mind (How is Chris going to hide the RC), I had visions of miniature androids with servos in them.
Now for the second question how are you going to fire it to raise steam, alcohol or butane? 
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 04, 2019, 11:12:38 PM
We still have to see it under steam and RC that plus operational trials could take use to 500 easily.
Gerald.
I have no plans to RC this model, want to keep it looking original, and all the servos and connections would be too visible.
That answers one question that was in the back of my mind (How is Chris going to hide the RC), I had visions of miniature androids with servos in them.
Now for the second question how are you going to fire it to raise steam, alcohol or butane? 
Gerald.
Hi Gerald,


This micro androids fell through a crack in the floor, so that option is out.    :Lol:




The boiler has a butane tank and burner, with a single firetube.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: steamboatmodel on September 06, 2019, 10:41:47 PM
Hi Chris,
Are you making your own gas tank?
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 06, 2019, 10:54:59 PM
Hi Chris,
Are you making your own gas tank?
Gerald.


No, things like butane tanks, safety valves, gauges, I prefer to buy off the shelf. Here in the US a place called The Train Department carries all the parts from the overseas brands for the Gauge 1 market. Have gotten parts from places like Clevedon Steam over in the UK too, they have great burners and valves.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: mike mott on September 16, 2019, 05:19:13 PM
I enjoyed watching the operation,   :ThumbsUp: I am guessing that as you get accustomed to operating your new steam digger that the foreman will give you instructions on fine tuning your limbs to move in nano-meters so that you get the rotation to move a little slower. I am not being critical, it is an amazing machine, it reminds me of the first time I drove a car pulling away from the curb that first time getting the feel of the accelerator.

Mike
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 16, 2019, 05:55:01 PM
I enjoyed watching the operation,   :ThumbsUp: I am guessing that as you get accustomed to operating your new steam digger that the foreman will give you instructions on fine tuning your limbs to move in nano-meters so that you get the rotation to move a little slower. I am not being critical, it is an amazing machine, it reminds me of the first time I drove a car pulling away from the curb that first time getting the feel of the accelerator.

Mike
You are totally correct - I need to get a feel for which lever is which, and which need a very light touch - the throttle action is quite sensitive!
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Captain Jerry on September 17, 2019, 02:14:38 AM
Chris,


That looks like an afternoon of fun.  I don't know how much chick grit costs but you might look at kitty litter as an option.  Both are free flowing making it a little hard to get a full bucket.  Another choice that more closely resembles the shot rock that the shovel is meant to handle might be dried corn.  You might save a little sweeping and improve efficiency would be to confine the stockpile with some boards.  The ultimate loading efficiency is to use the crowd function in coordination with the hoist but that is a two man job on that machine. You are going to need a full crew if you ever expect that machine to pay for itself!


Jerry
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 17, 2019, 03:32:19 AM
Hi jerry,


The chick grit is just a few bucks for a 5 pound bag at the local farm store, I have several more already. As you say, it does flow out easy so I am planning to make a three walled backstop that looks like unblasted stone, to give it something to push back against. I think the technical term is it has a low subsidance angle, same problem they had digging the Panama canal.
Going to be a few weeks before I can get to it, got more RC events and a trip to Maine coming up.
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: ddmckee54 on September 17, 2019, 10:17:44 PM
Chris:

Just nit-picking here,but when you're talking about the angle of the slope of a piled granular substance, you're talking about the angle of repose.  The angle of draw subsidence is the angle that a material will spread out to when you blast if off a wall in mining.  I guess in a way you're talking about both.  You're using the angle of repose of the grit to simulate the angle of draw subsidence for the material that you've hypothetically blasted off the wall.

You didn't mention blasting around the elves did you?  You'd better monitor their online purchases very carefully from now on.  You don't want the Alcohol-Tobacco-Firearms folks, or Homeland security, to come knocking on your door about some highly questionable purchases.  That might just get you put on the NO-FLY list real quick.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on September 17, 2019, 10:32:20 PM
Chris:

Just nit-picking here,but when you're talking about the angle of the slope of a piled granular substance, you're talking about the angle of repose.  The angle of draw subsidence is the angle that a material will spread out to when you blast if off a wall in mining.  I guess in a way you're talking about both.  You're using the angle of repose of the grit to simulate the angle of draw subsidence for the material that you've hypothetically blasted off the wall.

You didn't mention blasting around the elves did you?  You'd better monitor their online purchases very carefully from now on.  You don't want the Alcohol-Tobacco-Firearms folks, or Homeland security, to come knocking on your door about some highly questionable purchases.  That might just get you put on the NO-FLY list real quick.

Don

Ah - I didn't know the proper term, going from dimly remembered statement about sand piles. Thanks!
And yes, I've got to keep the black powder locked up in a case labeled 'Veggies' to hide it from the elves.Oops, now I've got to change the label, they read this forum too!   :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: Steamer5 on January 04, 2023, 06:59:30 AM
Hi Chris,
 I had this pop up on my YouTube ….  & thought  of you…..

Enjoy.      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEXJ7LIMsRY

I had a bit of a look at a couple of his other videos….. grab a handful of cookies …….

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
Post by: crueby on January 04, 2023, 01:40:36 PM
Hi Chris,
 I had this pop up on my YouTube ….  & thought  of you…..

Enjoy.      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEXJ7LIMsRY

I had a bit of a look at a couple of his other videos….. grab a handful of cookies …….

Cheers Kerrin
Hi Kerrin,
Neat find, they have a great 'kit' for a steam shovel! Just needs a little buffing out... Will be fun to see how that one turns out!
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