Model Engine Maker
Engines => Your Own Design => Topic started by: sbwhart on August 04, 2012, 08:14:45 PM
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I've had an ankering to build a Dake engine for quite some time, when I came across informations on Pat's fathers Dake engine, since then I've researched the engine quite a few times each time I've advanced my understanding and spent a long time thinking about the best way to machine one from bar stock.
Over the last week I've been putting together an assembly drawing I've simplified things quite a bit to suite my methods and machinery. I'm not quite sure when I'll start to cut metal probably in a couple of months when I make more progress on my Simplex loco rebuild.
I've attached the assembly drawing:- comments will be apreciated.
Stew
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Oh man, I got the popcorn going and a chair pulled up for this one. I can't wait to see how it develops after your last beautiful S/S build, Stew. :ThumbsUp:
BC1
Jim
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Thanks Jim
I think there are quite a few popcorns out their :ThumbsUp:
Stew
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Air passage routes sketch attached
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Stew
Will be following this one for sure. I hope Jim brought some extra popcorn.
Vince
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Marvellous Stew! I'll will be watching with great interest :D
(http://wktodd.webspace.virginmedia.com/animations/Dake%20piston%20movement.gif)
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Great bit of animation Bill
:pinkelephant: :pinkelephant: :pinkelephant: :pinkelephant: :pinkelephant:
:whoohoo: :whoohoo: :whoohoo: :whoohoo: :whoohoo:
Stew
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Cheers Stew.
The model was loosely based on the Dake patent drawing
(http://wktodd.webspace.virginmedia.com/animations/Dake%20explode.gif)
BTW Is your outer piston just a rectangle (no back plate) ?
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Hi Stew,
I had recently become interested in the Dake engine too, and I'd started
to do some drawing studies of the port timing based on the patent drawings
(US 395,039). When I realized it had already been done, (PatJ's father) I kind
of lost interest.
I was having trouble figuring out the timing, and part of my confusion may
have been with scaling dimensions directly off the patent drawings. For
instance, the center intake port you show (the one on the front cover) is
considerably larger than the one I was using in my studies.
Another point of confusion for me may be that I assumed the engine would use
steam expansively, and so was trying to figure out where cutoff would occur.
In fact, the patent makes no claim of the expansive use of steam (and these
patents often do make that explicit claim).
One thing I noticed is that your air routing is opposite that shown in the
patent (and in Bill's animation). That is, in the animation, the left port is
routed to the top of the pistons, and the right port to the bottom. Left and
right ports are reversed too. Maybe it all comes out in the wash.
Just an observation from someone who's still struggling a bit to understand
the timing.
Of course I'll be watching,
--Tim
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I don't think it does have any early cut-off mechanism as far as I can see (so ideal for compressed air operation). Reversing is a simple matter of reversing inlet and exhaust.
(http://wktodd.webspace.virginmedia.com/animations/Dake%20valve%20operation.gif)
[edit]
Not sure if this shows it better or not ???
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Bill, I had seen the first animation before, but the exploded view, and that last port timing view answer a lot of questions for me. Excellent and thanks,
Oh, and where did I read that the engines did not run as well in reverse as in forward?
--Tim
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Oh, and where did I read that the engines did not run as well in reverse as in forward?
The engine is pretty symmetrical so, unless the porting causes a problem somehow, I'd have expected them to run both ways equally well :thinking:
We'll know soon enough when Stew finishes his build :) :thewhip:
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Tim you spotted the deliberate mistake you win the coconut :Jester:
I only spotted the mistake after i posted the drawing, I've attached the corrected drawing.
If you do a search on valve steam engine valve timing you should find a site dedicated to the subject they have animation for most types of engines, with features that let you change the perameters, I can think of its name at the moment.
But to be honest for an air powered model I wouldn't get to hung up on getting things spot on from experience air models are not that critical.
I think I've attached the animation as well
Stew
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Thanks for the coconut. The animation I'm most interested in seeing is the one to be taken with video camera complete with exhaust sounds.
--Tim
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That looks like an interesting engine, Stew. Still can't quite get my head around how it works, but I'll watch the build and hopefully it'll come to me.
Chuck
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Thanks for your interest Chaps
I've now completed the drawings if any one wants a free copy just drop me a PM.
But be wanrned they are untested so there are probably mistakes..
Stew
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Many thanks Stew, for allowing us access to your work, it is always a pleasure. This looks to be a fascinating engine and should prove to be quite the challenge but after seeing some of your other accomplishments, this one should be no less doable. :ThumbsUp:
BC1
Jim
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Cheers Jim :cheers:
I don't know when I'll be starting it, as i want to make some progress on the Simplex rebuild.
Stew
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Well I've sortof made a start whilst I was making the link for the loco I had some long cuts to do so set the trips on the mill and just let it get on with it whilst I did a bit of work on the Dake.
The Dale is one of those engine thats best made from the inside out that way you make the part in the sequence they fit together so its just a matter of making each part fit.
So starting with the inner cylinder which is made from a 3" dia chunk of EN1A free maching mild steel.
Face of to thickness, and drill and ream a 8mm hole down the middle.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Simplex/131_2147.jpg)
The turn up a 8mm mandrell a nice close fit on the cylinder, bolt the cylinder to it and skim the outside down to size.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Simplex/131_2148.jpg)
Thats it for now, but every engine has to start someware :naughty:
Stew
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It's good to see a start on this, Stew.
--Tim
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Ah...just came from your other thread.
Well okay then. This is highly interesting too.
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Hey Stew!
Great build...I've seen one of these full size in real life....damnest thing you ever seen.....like whats making this thing run!
Cool....pulling up a chair
Dave
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Great start Stew! :ThumbsUp:
Following, quietly. Trying to understand what it does, and how...... (http://serve.mysmiley.net/mad/mad0270.gif) (http://www.mysmiley.net)
Good luck!
David D
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Right! Got my chair and popcorn. Have at it mate.
Ron
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Very interesting Stew, I will be pulling my chair up as well. I. Look forward to more post. Don't forget we like photos!
Don
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If the loco is on the shelf for now then this is the show to watch.
Pete
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Thanks for your interest Guys
Bit more done today
I was unsure as to the best way to progress on this, not quite sure what I would use the mandrel for but it just seemed a good idea to have one.
To mark out mounted the mandrell on the spin indexer used this to centre the height gauge then mounted the piston to it and used the indexer as a marking aid, the marking out is just for a sanity check that everything is going in the correct direction.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2175.jpg)
One of the problems with this engine is trying to get your head round what the important features are, I recon getting the side faces of the piston cymetrical and parallel but the crown of the piston is not so critical
So strating on the side faces, set the disc up in the vice
Using a parallel to get get it leve
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2181.jpg)
Find the top of the disc and zero the vertical slide on this, then mill the required amount off.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2185.jpg)
Flip it over and mill exactly the same amount off the other side. A quick measure showed that they were cymetrical within 0.05mm that will do.
Now to do the crown. Set it up square in the vice using a 1*2*3 block this should be good enough.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2188.jpg)
Then mill as for the side.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2194.jpg)
This took all of my shop time for today this is it so far.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2199.jpg)
Stew
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Some more done this morning.
To cut the steam ports the piston needs to be positioned correctly under the mill.
First in the lathe and using an independat four jaw chuck set the bore running true.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2200.jpg)
Then mount the chuck on the RT with the RT set on zero clock one of the faces square by turning the base of the RT when level clamp it down.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2201.jpg)
Next you have to centre the RT under the spindle to do this I used one of those indicator things located in the bore.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2210.jpg)
With it lined up zero the DRO
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2212.jpg)
Then using the a combination of the PCD feature on the DRO and the RT to generate the 31deg curve machine the ports by first drilling the ends 4mm and joining them up with a 4mm slot drill.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2213.jpg)
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2215.jpg)
To drill into the ports mount the piston on the mandrell in the spin indexer making sure you get it square and with the mill zeroed on the centre line.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2219.jpg)
It is now an easy job to get the correct position to drill through into the port, just indexing round to get the position on each face, repeat for the location of the M3 holes.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2222.jpg)
To complete Tap M3 using the tapping table.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2226.jpg)
Thats the first part done.
Stew
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Wow!, nicely done Stew. This is going to be very interesting to follow. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
BC1
Jim
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Nice start Stew. Great pics and description of the part set-ups as well. Looking forward to more.
Bill
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Cheers Guys :cheers:
Time for a progress update.
Made the side slipper bars for the piston I had some suitable brass bar in my stash.
Square it up and bring it to size.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2229.jpg)
Drill and mill the slots
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2235.jpg)
And then it was :doh: time I must have got one of the co-ordinates wrong for drilling as a result it was off set 1mm.
Rather than waist it decided it would come to no harm if I mounted the assembly in the four jaw and skim things level.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2239.jpg)
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2241.jpg)
I think that came out better than the origonal, it 0.5mm thinner than I intended but that won't do any harm
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2242.jpg)
Next part the outer piston/cylinder this part has a duel function it forms the cylinder for the inner piston, and also does duty as the outer piston.
I'm making this out of 5/16"*1" mild steel bar, first cut the bits off to length, then for the two side peices that the inner piston will work over, with them clamped together fly cut a light skim off, this takes care of the slight bend that was in the bar.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2246.jpg)
Keeping the parts in the vice so that the step at both ends is exactly the same as this helps to get a square assy, the vice was swiveled round 90 deg and the bar clocked level, doing it this way I could take advantage of the power feed.
Then mill the step to the same depth and to the correct width.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2253.jpg)
With this done the parts can be removed from the vice
Swivel the vice back and clock it square, and drill the holes and slot set the vice stop
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2257.jpg)
Flip it over with the same edge against the stop and counter sink the holes.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2261.jpg)
Thats another bit done.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2263.jpg)
Stew
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Wow!! It's is a pleasure to follow along with you Stew. That is some great setups.
Don
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Stew
Thanks for sending the plans. I am following and learning. I like the way you have fabricated the inner piston and incorporated the slippers into the form. Do you think that the weight of this piston is going to create a balance issue? In Dake's original, the inner piston shows a lot of hollow space that I thought might be an effort to reduce weight.
Jerry
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Thanks Don
Stew
Do you think that the weight of this piston is going to create a balance issue? In Dake's original, the inner piston shows a lot of hollow space that I thought might be an effort to reduce weight.
Jerry
I don't realy know Jerry if it will be an issue, the only model I can find had a similar design and that seems to work ok.
I'm a bit concerned about the swept volume of the pistons it will certainly gobble up air, its such a strange design its dificult to predict what will happen, from what I can find out it wasn't a high reving engine but it delivered a lot of torque.
Stew
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Finished off the outer piston today.
Squared off the ends, and brought both sides to exactly the same length, had to take it steady as there was quite a bit sticking out.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2268.jpg)
Then drilled and tapped M3
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2271.jpg)
Screwed it all together with stud lock.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2274.jpg)
Then over on the lathe in the four jaw skimmed both sides level and to size, had to make sure I was level in the jaws by taking a cut and checking that it was the same size all round, and adjust with a light tap.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2277.jpg)
I made the width just 0.05mm smaller than the inner piston.
Mounted the inner piston on the mandrell in the spinidexer and skimmed down each side to give a nice slide fit in the outer, doing it this way ensured it was cimetrical.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2281.jpg)
The outer piston slides in the outer casing, the sliding face needs to be square to the inner sliding face. So clocked the inner sliding face level on a angle plate.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2285.jpg)
Flip the plate 90 deg and skim up the outer sliding face.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2288.jpg)
Its an easy job to get the other face square and parallel by just sitting the good face on a 1*2*3 block and giving it a skim.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2290.jpg)
Quite pleased how that turned out.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2299.jpg)
The outer piston still needs the reces machining for the flange but I will do that when its assembled into the outer frame.
Stew
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Stew,
I've been right on top of this since you started the thread. I'm completely enjoying the build. It seems there is a prototype Dake running on compressed air at a steam museum here in Indiana. I'd like to get up there and see it (well the whole museum, for that matter).
--Tim
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Stew, Your ability to take these odd looking engines and model them, seemingly, with ease is astounding. :AllHailTheKing: Great work.
Ron
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Glad I've found this Stew - am not sure I fully understood it when I saw the drawings round at yours not long ago! Great to see you make a start on it, i'll definitely be watching! :ThumbsUp:
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Stew, Your ability to take these odd looking engines and model them, seemingly, with ease is astounding. Great work.
Says it all for me.
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Love the progress Stew, I agree with everyone. Superb job in every sense.
Don
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Thanks for the support and interest Guys
I had to redraw the back plate mainly because I made the outerpiston from thicker 5/16 plate this would impact by reducing the clearance at the end of the stroke to 1mm so decided to increase the width of the plate to accomodate this change, also I realised that by not having adjustable jib strips I was changed the over all shape off the engine, so decided to increase the height so that it would look as though ut had jib strips fitted.
A made the back plate from some scrap yard 16mm thick ally jig plate.
First op square the plate up to size.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2305.jpg)
With the dro I find it easyer if everything is dimentioned from a common centre point also with my digital height gauge this also makes marking out easy.
Just zero the height gauge on the centre point, then you can make adjustments up and down to bring it on the size you want.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2308.jpg)
Just as a sanity check I centre poped the positions as an insurance I'm drilling in the right spot.
Set the plate up in the mill on some parallels so that I wouldn't drill into the table, and with a stop set up square to but the plate up against.
Find the edges of the plate and Zero the DRO on the centre point, first drilling op centre drill the zero position so that I have a datum point off set and centre drill for the bearing housing position, then using the PCD feature drill and tap 6 stud holes M4, and on the bearing centre line drill the edge of the plate to take 2*3mm dowels to aid alignment with the covers ets.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2311.jpg)
Then it was just a matter of walking round the edge to each poistion to drill M4 clearance and counterbore with a 5/16 slot drill to take the stud pads that will be fitted later.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2313.jpg)
The plate was too big to do all around it at one setting, so unclamp reposition and using a centre wound into the datum point and with the plate up against the stop, reclamp zero the dro on this new position and finish off the rest of the holes.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/IMG_3749.jpg)
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/IMG_3750.jpg)
So far so good.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/IMG_3754.jpg)
Now to maching the hole to take the bearing housing.
With my big four jaw independant chuck in the lathe with a wobble bar set up in the centre clock it up true to get position.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/IMG_3757.jpg)
Just a matter now to put a bigger centre in the job drill the meat out then finish off to size with a boring bar.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/IMG_3760.jpg)
Job done.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/IMG_3763.jpg)
Still needs the bolting pads fitting and the edges rounding off so that it looks more like a casting, but I'll do that at final assy.
Stew
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Just superb. I really do enjoy watching you work Stew, so orderly. It's shaping up to be another very interesting engine when completed. Cary on :ThumbsUp: .
BC1
Jim
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Thanks Jim
The clamp holes and exhaust port for the front plate was machined up excatly the same as for the back plate.
For the anular inlet port I machined up a mandrel for a nice fit on the exhaust port.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2321-Copy.jpg)
Then mounted the chuck on the RT centred it under the quil and machined the port with a 3mm slot drill.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2326.jpg)
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2327.jpg)
As a sanity check I tried the alignment of the dowel holes in the front a back plates.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2331-Copy.jpg)
Spot on :thumbup:
I need to wait for the delivery of a 4mm long series drill before i finish of the front plate, so made a start on the bearing housing.
This is made from some 2 1/4" ally bar.
Face a centre drill then using a running centre machine down the OD. then drill through and bore out for the ball bearing pocket.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2337.jpg)
Swap in round in the chuck and protecting the finished dia with a strip of drinks can part off excess.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2339.jpg)
Clock up the register diameter.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2340.jpg)
And bore out the pocket for the other bearing.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2342.jpg)
Keping the job in the chuck swap over onto the mill and using that clock thing centre the quil up on the bore.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2343.jpg)
And drill the 6*4mm on the correct PCD.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2348.jpg)
And this is where it fits.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2356.jpg)
Another bit done.
Stew
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Nice work Stew. :praise2:
Watching this engine being built from the inside out is really interesting.
Dan
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Wow! your moving right along there Stew. Man that is some nice setups. Still following with interest and enjoying it. :cheers:
Don
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As always, a very nice interesting project to follow along with Stew, and great work :NotWorthy:
Kind regards, Arnold
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Thanks Dan/Don/Arnold
A little more done today.
I didn't like the look of the bearing housing far too square to look like a casting so set it back up in the lathe, and slew the compound over 5 deg and tapered the back end a bit.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2357.jpg)
That looks better
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2361.jpg)
OK back to the front plate turned up the central boss to a tight fit in the exhaust port with the outside 50mm dia so that I can write the words DAKE ENGINE on it, and fixed it in place with some high strength loctite.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2365.jpg)
The plug only goes into the exhoust 5mm, I wanted to fit it first as the long air ways will cut into it. To drill the air way I used a 4mm long series drill.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2364.jpg)
Long series drill along side a standard jobber drill.
Clamp to angle plate centre drill and then drill part way with the jobber and finishe to depth with the long series clearing the chips as you go so that it doesn't jamb or break. I also ground one land of the long series drill long so that it would drill big so if it did break i would have a fitting chance of getting it out.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2367.jpg)
The inlet hole only goes as far as the anular port, the exhaust hole crosses the anular port into the exhaust port, to seal it off from the the inlet a thin wall brass tube goes down the hole to bridge the inlet anular port.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2379.jpg)
Stew
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So moving on to the next part the outer cylinder this is ally fabrication and is made the same way as for the inner cylinder.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/131_2387.jpg)
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/131_2388.jpg)
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/131_2393.jpg)
With the square made I I found the centre and drilled the hole for the location dowels so that the end plates could be accuratly located.
As I doubted that the holes for the two end plates would be accuratly matched i decided that it would be best to spot the hole postions for the two plates seperatly using a tranfer punch.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/131_2398.jpg)
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/131_2404.jpg)
The fixing screws holes were filled with Milliput epoxy stuff.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/131_2407.jpg)
I then had to make a spacers to take the slipper strip this is instead of the gyb strips that the real engine has fitted.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/131_2387.jpg)
Then make the brass slipper plates.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/131_2415.jpg)
This is how they fit
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/131_2417.jpg)
And a quick hows it looking so far shot
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/131_2421.jpg)
Stew
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That's a good size model Stew! Bet it's got some power!......OK....I almost hear the sounds of a new engine!....
;D ;D
Dave
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Getting a early start on this one Stew, she is shaping up. That is a most usual cylinder, I have never seen anything like it.
Don
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This is all looking very interesting Stew. I've got some catching up to do.
Steve
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Looking good Stew, looking forward to more of this unusual beastie.
Lee
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That's a good size model Stew! Bet it's got some power!......OK....I almost hear the sounds of a new engine!....
;D ;D
Dave
Yes its worked out bigger than I was planning for, I'm a little worried about my small compressor not having enough wind for it.
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I think you'll manage...if not on your compressor...someone here will jump at the chance to power it for you.
Video please!
OH .....have you considered a lexan side cover?......that might be very interesting to watch!
Dave
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Hey Dave, you beat me to it, i was just going to sujest the same. I think it would look realy good if you could see the action of the pistons.
Stew, i can let you have a piece of 10mm perspex if you fancy trying it,allthough it would need plenty of lube to stop wear on the perspex.
Cheers Dek. :old:
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Stew, i can let you have a piece of 10mm perspex if you fancy trying it,allthough it would need plenty of lube to stop wear on the perspex.
Cheers Dek I may just take you up on that.
Found this picture of a Dake engine being used to power a winch, this got me wondering if I could use my engine to model this set up, but I'll need to drop on some gears bigest about 4 to 5 " with the reduction train to match, can any one help ?.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/DCP_1520a.jpg)
Stew
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Stew, i also have some big brass gears but i think the biggest is about 3" dia. They would still make a good looking winch though. :whoohoo:
Cheers Dek. :old:
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Stew
I have some stainless ones surplus.....I'll take a photo and figuire them out.
Might not be big enough.....
Dave
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You've got a rotary table haven't you ?! :ThumbsUp:
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Thanks for you interest Guys.
Dek:- I'll call round and eyeball those gears to see if they will do.
Thanks Dave that would be good :ThumbsUp:.
Nick that sounds like hard work >:D
I won't take this idea much further than planning things out and looking for gears, it all depends on how the engine works if at all, it will be a couple of weeks before I'll be giving it a bit of air, in the mean time i'll do some pencil sketches of the winch set up.
Stew
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Stew
Its looking good and will be fascinating to see going
You could search out a set of old lathe gear change wheels and to a Bogs flywheel spokes job on the mill.
(http://i.imgur.com/o9GtMEu.jpg)
As you similarly did for your finger engine
Pete
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Lathe change gears is what I've got in mind Pete you can pick up odd ones on fleabay, I need four two big about 3 - 4" dia with two matching small wheel about 1" ish dia but that depends on the speed that it runs at, and I won't know that until it runs.
Stew
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Stew
This is going to be a really interesting engine to run. It should have plenty of power with all that displacement. I have enjoyed the way that you have made it easy to understand the operating principle but I still don't see the need for the circular flange on the inner piston. You have still not machined the recesses in the outer piston for clearance and it looks like the recess will have to extend into the housing as well. I know if it were me, I would be very hesitant to make that cut.
Jerry
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I still don't see the need for the circular flange on the inner piston.
It's there to provide a face seal around the annular inlet/exhaust port. Its diameter needs to be at least the radius of the port ring + the stroke length
Dake patent:
http://www.google.com/patents/US395039?dq=395039&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DcqbUPm8Dai30QXy04CQCA&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAA
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Jerry
I must admit like you I couldn't see the point of the flage and seriously considered not having it, in the end I figured it must do something and as i have a lot of uncertainty about this engine, it was best to cover my option, and have it.
From the patent info Bill posted it has got a function so its a good thing I did.
Thanks for the patent link Bill I've saved it to my Dake file I'm amassing quite a bit of info on it.
I realy wasn't looking forward to maching the recesses I'd ran through it countless times in my mind with some wierd and wonderful ideas, but wonce I'd got the parts arround me I decided to keep to the simplest method.
So for the frame I just bolted the back plate to the frame, clocked it up square on the mill table.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2422.jpg)
Then centred the mill on the bearing housing bore in the back plate.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2425.jpg)
sorry about the crap pic.
Then using the boring head bored out the recess.
sorry no pic.
This is it finished.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2426.jpg)
For the inner piston again this was squared up on the table, and using the edge finders it was centred under the mill
At this point thing got hairy.
I had the boring tool sticking out of the side of the head as i thought this was a less flimsy set up but it ment I had to run the mill in referse, this worked fine for the outer frame.
But I didn't realise the mill head was screwed into the morse taper mandrell, this time the bugger unscrewed. :Mad: :cussing:
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2438.jpg)
This gave me an involantry bowel movement, after a shower and a change of pants, :ROFL: things wern't as bad as they looked the part and boring head wasn't damaged.
So changed to this method i was pushing the capacity if the head, but by taking small cuts it all worked out.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2441.jpg)
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2447.jpg)
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2448.jpg)
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Dake%20Engine/131_2449.jpg)
Hopefully that the worst bit over, its getting close to the moment of truth.
Stew
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Nice work Stew, :praise2:
Wow that boring head unscrewing makes me really happy that my mill does not have a reverse switch. Nice that it worked out for the best.
Dan
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Stew
I think its time for the application of a bit of loctite on the boring head to prevent any more embarrassing situations in the future. I did mine a long time ago after the very same thing happened to me , unlike you I lost the part and head
Stuart
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It's looking good Stew. Lucky it didn't do more damage - that's exactly the sort of thing I'd do too. :cussing:
Well at least you know for next time. :ThumbsUp:
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Nice work. Sorry about the boring head scare, at least it worked out well, and the recesses it made look great :)
Lee
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looking great Stew, sure glad nothing serious happen and it just unscrewed. Looks like it all worked out for you though. Still following with great interest, just keep the photos coming no matter how bad they seem to you.
Don
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Looking good Stew. Sounds like you've had enough excitement for the time being
Steve
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Wow! That's the kind of thing that makes me nervous. I had a feeling that you might be wrestling with that operation. You had a lot of work at risk. It great that nothing was lost. I'm glad that you went ahead with building according to plan. That's always a good choice. If it wasn't for the fact that that is the way the originals were made, I would put better than even money that you could do just as well without.
Anxiously awaiting the outcome.
Jerry
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Thanks Guys, I,m releived that it all worked out in the end :ThumbsUp:
Stew
I think its time for the application of a bit of loctite on the boring head to prevent any more embarrassing situations in the future. I did mine a long time ago after the very same thing happened to me , unlike you I lost the part and head
Stuart
Loctite nows thats a good idea :ThumbsUp:
Stew
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Made the crank yesterday, and i was thinking not much more now just the flywheel, then I remembered I had a spare 4" flywheel from the Simpson and Shipton build why not give it a go
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And it lives:---- we have a runner
:pinkelephant: :pinkelephant: :pinkelephant: :pinkelephant:
:cartwheel: :cartwheel: :cartwheel: :cartwheel: :cartwheel: :cartwheel:
:whoohoo: :whoohoo: :whoohoo: :whoohoo: :whoohoo: :whoohoo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2qRX_pSJao
Stew
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Awesome Stew, man you don't mess around when you build something. Love it! :praise2:
Don
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That's great, for a first run Stew! :praise2:
"We gonner need a bigger 'presser".......... :thinking:
David D
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Really cool, I love the varying speed as it runs. Any plans to make the internals visible?
Lee
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Outstanding Stew!
Well done!
Dave
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:rant: I wish the video worked on my home (linux) computers. I am feeling cheated. :rant:
Jo
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Stew
I bet that was a great moment, well done once again.
When I saw that little flywheel my first through was "do you need it". The mass of the piston must be more than that of the flywheel. I didn't recall seeing a flywheel on the winch, so had another look at the photo. It may have been obscured by the body of the cylinder but then again if it was going to be of any use in that application it would have had to have been a reasonable size. Then I looked at the patent, drawings, and no flywheel. If it has been necessary as part of the patent design surely it would have needed to be included. I had a quick skim of the text but didn't see anything.
So have you tried it without?
Pete
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No I've not tried it yet, I'm going to try and get it running better first.
Stew
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Congrats Stew. Always nice to get over that hurdle.
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Thanks for all you're kind comments and interest Guys
Just spent an hour in the shed tweeking things easing tight spots etc, got it running far nicer now, it runs great without the flywheel forward and reverse, its not a fast running engine, but it throttles down to about 2 psi which supprised me.
I'll post another video tomorow showing the innerds and the slow running, as its a nice bright sharp winters day her and the tide is right for a walk over to Hilbray Island.
Stew
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The vid can wait for a while. Hope you, and yours have a great day Stew....... :ThumbsUp:
David D
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Nice going Stew! :pinkelephant: :pinkelephant: :pinkelephant:
Knowing whats going on inside makes it all the more interesting. The stark, simple external appearance is an indication of its heritage. I can't imagine how it could be fancied up enough to be the centerpiece of a museum. No columns! No capitals! No graceful turned rods! IMHO it needs a big spoked flywheel turning slowly to make it clear that it is running.
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Brilliant Stew, I am surprised it runs slowly and on low pressure too. Can't wait to see the innards moving :ThumbsUp:
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Thanks Guys
by popular request her's the vid of the innards, hope you don't think my explination is too clumsy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7Ta4IlA0XQ
Stew
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That's awesome Stew! VERY WELL DONE!!!!
:NotWorthy: :NotWorthy: :NotWorthy: :NotWorthy: :NotWorthy: :NotWorthy:
Dave
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Brilliant. :NotWorthy: :NotWorthy:
Jo
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Excellent explanation Stew. Thanks for posting that. It was very interesting.
Nice job!
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What Dave Said :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :praise2: :praise2:
The beauty is on the inside (will someone be brave enough to build one with plate glass covers?) :thinking:
Thanks for the explanation Stew.
Bez
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Nicely done Stew! :praise2:
Very well explained, and shown...... (http://freesmileyface.net/smiley/respect/respect-048.gif) (http://freesmileyface.net/free-respect-smileys.html)
David D
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Well said, Well shown, Well built and quickly too. Amazing work Stew. :whoohoo: :whoohoo: :whoohoo:
Ron
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Thanks for the video, now I understand the interesting operation. I too vote for a clear face so that the good parts can be seen :)
Lee
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Thanks Guys
Did a bit more fiddling when I first tried it i could only get it to run with copper slip, for the 2nd Vid I think I over packed it with copper slip I had to strip it down and clean some away but it was still slugish, after the vid I spayed some WD40 into it and it speeded up so gave it a good flush out with WD 40 and gave it a squert of my favourite slideways oil and it know running a lot better, so I think things are bedding in, the full size engines were not fast runners but they delivered a lot of torque, henc ehter use as winches etc.
Stew
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Stew
A bit of running in and a bit of light oil can work wonders. I read somewhere that "a little clearance never got in the way." :naughty:
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:praise2: :praise2: well done indeed Stew - Congratulations!
Sigh... Another project added to the list...
Kind regards, Arnold
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Brilliant Stew, thanks for taking the time to explain and vid showing the inner workings.
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Very interesting design, and I now understand it thanks to the video.
It seems that this engine design has a lot of friction surfaces, which you'd think would make it require quite a bit of pressure to run. Looking at the innards, I wonder if the area of any of the adjacent surfaces could be reduced. For example, could the port faces that bear on the brass sliding surfaces be reduced in size with a bit of a step? How about the large surface on the "piston"; does that entire surface need to bear on the outer plate?
Simon
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Simon makes a good point there. I have made another sujestion over on mad modder. ( too tired to type it all out again here )
Cheers Dek. very----> :old:
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Dek,
Not all of us go over onto MM.
John
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Well said, Well shown, Well built and quickly too. Amazing work Stew. :whoohoo: :whoohoo: :whoohoo:
Ron
What Ron said
It is just awesome Stew, I like!
Don
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Sorry about that John. :ShakeHead: What i sujested was that Stew should have made another but with no front cover (valve plate ? ), then rig it to be driven by the complete one to show folk how it works. I think that just seeing the complete engine,most folk would think it was some kind of turbine. :shrug:
Cheers Dek. :old:
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Stew
Very nice and thanks for the explanation. It doesn't have the exposed moving parts of other engines. You can see some uses for this as its a clean compact self contained unit that lends itself to stand alone applications, like that mobile winch. Its surprising there's not more of them around. Perhaps there is but they are not recognised as steam engines.
What it now needs is some steam. Now you do have that Simplex boiler sitting there. Rig it up use the hand pump for water feed and give it a go. I bet you'd be surprised at the difference running on steam. There's probably a project in there for you with all those engines you've made, you need a portable boiler.
regards
Pete
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I saw a 12" to the foot version of this Stew.....it was about 2 feet x 3 feet by about 10 inches...It seemed a real beast, but it wasn't shafted to anything.
Nice build! Thanks for taking us along!
Dave
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Where have the links to the vids gone :scratch:
Bit of an update:- made the two way valve.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Photobucket%20Desktop%20-%20STEWART-HP/IMG_3842.jpg)
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Photobucket%20Desktop%20-%20STEWART-HP/IMG_3843.jpg)
Not bad:- still needs a bit of sculpting though.
Stew
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Decided to make a pully for the engine, as i think making it into a winch would be a none starter.
Made it from a bit of 4 1/2" steel tube with the spokes generated from a bit of 5mm plate and stuck the lot together with high strength loctite.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/IMG_3860.jpg)
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/IMG_3866.jpg)
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/IMG_3881.jpg)
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/IMG_3888.jpg)
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/IMG_3884.jpg)
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I like that Stew...I'll keep that method in mind! Works a treat!
Dave
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A flat belt pulley!
What a great idea, Stew! :praise2:
I like that. Very much. Well done....... (http://freesmileyface.net/smiley/respect/respect-044.gif) (http://freesmileyface.net)
David D
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I'm liking it a great deal Stew :ThumbsUp: I can picture in my mind this unit being used to unload ship cargo onto the dock in some far away land. Terrific work.
BC1
Jim
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I like it also Stew, the throttle looks like a ships throttle. The wheel adds to the look of your engine.
Don
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Nice job as usual on the pulley, Stew. I've enjoyed your interesting and well-documented build. :ThumbsUp:
Regards,
Rudy
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I'm afraid this has come to a stop, my father passed away on Saturday, and my emotions are far too raw to concentrate, I tried to revise the drawings as a way of keeping my mind ocupied, but I kept hearing my dad, who was an engineering, giving me advice so I had to stop.
Stew
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My deepest sympathies Stew :-[,
We will look forward to hearing more about this engine at a more appropriate time.
Jo
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Very sorry to hear this news Stew.
Take your time.
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Oh Geez Stew!......My condolences friend...we're all here for you.
Dave
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very sorry to hear the bad news Stew
Pete
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I kept hearing my dad, who was in engineering
I'm sure he was very proud of you Stew - His job on this earth was well done.
Bill
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Wot Bill Said!
I am sure he is proud Stew. Of that you can be sure.
Dave
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Stew,
My sincere condolences on losing your father.
Best Regards
Bob
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So sorry, Stew.
Thinking of You, and Yours.......
David & Christine.
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So sorry Stew, my deepest condolences to you and your family.
Tim
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Life brings both joy and sorrow and memories are what we are left with. Hold the memories closely and let them guide you through this difficult time. You have my deepest sympathies.
Jerry
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Stew, my heartfelt condolences as well.
Sincerely, Arnold
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Stew I am still on vacation and have just read about the passing of your father. You have my deepest condolences for your loss.
Sincerely, Don
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Deepest sympathies on the loss of your dad, Stew.
Best Regards,
Rudy
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Condolences Stew and think of all the good things he taught you
Pete
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Thanks you all for your kind words of support its very much appreciated.
I've finished of the Dake engine with a flash of gray paint, the finish is not too great as the paint i used tends to chip and for some reason probably chemical it doesn't want to stick to the milliput filler.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/IMG_3911.jpg)
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/IMG_3913.jpg)
I'll update the video to show the two way valve in operation.
Thanks to you all again
Stew
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That really looks great Stew. Not a lot of external stuff going on, but those who understand what's going on inside can enjoy it very much in operation.
Also my sympathies on the recent loss of your father. I have recently lost a sibling. It takes some time to recover.
--Tim
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Thanks Tim
Her's the video of the finished engine running.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_QJA6c1pPg
Stew
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That runs very well Stew! :praise2:
It does the job, without making a fuss........ (http://freesmileyface.net/smiley/respect/respect-048.gif) (http://freesmileyface.net/free-respect-smileys.html)
Understated, is the word, I think. :thinking:
David D
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Understated, is the word, I think.
Indeed!
It's an interesting engine. I was surprised by the response too. Nicely done!
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That was an interesting built Stew, a smooth runner. Loved it, and thanks for the lessons.
Don
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Outstanding Stew! Well done and thanks for sharing that with us Friend!
It looks great and your Dad would indeed be proud!
Dave
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Terrific piece of model engineering you have created there Stew. Its just so unpretentious in its form and function. A beautiful reproduction of the real deal shown in the beginning of the video, right down to the markings. WELL DONE :ThumbsUp:
BC1
Jim
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:ThumbsUp: stew nice build and a real nice runner, i think i will put that on my build list,need to finish the simpton and shipson. down to finishing it up with all the fitting and timing. thanks for sharing the build. jonesie
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Thanks again Guys
I've now got the drawing revised if any one wants a free copy juts drop me a PM with you email adress.
Stew