Model Engine Maker

Supporting => Tooling & Machines => Topic started by: Jo on April 15, 2015, 11:01:11 AM

Title: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 15, 2015, 11:01:11 AM
Edit^2 This thread is all about Mr Silky my Hardinge HLV-H coming to live with me ;D it starts from my problems with thinking about the electrics. Please stay with us he is really worth it  :whoohoo:



Edit: Following a request from Simon I have split this from my Kiwi thread as it relates to a possible new friend  :embarassed: and my trials and tribulations initially preparing for his arrival  ;D

but I think they do need a proper three phase supply to keep them happy or so I have read

Yep, Which is why I have acquired a monster 2HP three phase motor to convert my static converter into a rotary converter  ;) once set up I will have to decide if I want to rewire the workshop with a 3 phase distribution board and sockets :naughty:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on April 15, 2015, 11:41:13 AM
Sorry Jo but I just knew  you would be up to speed on the electricity requirements.


But please make sure that all the TP is equipotential bonded at least if you can span two machines with your arms  :zap:

I would fit the red plugs and sockets to your machines then you can be sure that when unplugged you are safe get your digits inside the nippy bits in the drive and sparky cabinets

Good luck with the impending Aririval  :happyreader:

Kitty is coming along very nicely .

Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 15, 2015, 01:50:22 PM
But please make sure that all the TP is equipotential bonded at least if you can span two machines with your arms  :zap:

 :headscratch: You are getting bit techie for me there Stuart, remember that last time I did any of this I was knee high to a grasshopper.

I only every run one machine at a time, there are three wires plus the earth that come out of the Transwave, they are then going to be connected across the monster motor then on to my existing  connection box which stars out to three of the machines. I am being :slap: encouraged to make a proper distribution box and put lots of sockets round the workshop.

I wish kitti was coming on nicely  :-\

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on April 15, 2015, 02:15:24 PM
Jo

the earthing thing is like your house the taps on your hand basin should be bonded with a earth wire so if on tap became live and you touched that and the other you would get 240 vac across your heart  :zap: dead

back to the WS  your machines should have a earth wire connecting them so that one machine cannot become live in respect of the others hence the name equal potential all the same  a bit of 10 mm sq would do.

if all the TP machines are near to each other then one socket and a trailing lead on each machine would be OK as it would limit the Rotary converter use to only at a time

rereading your post I would bond all the TP machine and your RC and transwave with a separate earth as well as the one in the trailing lead  belt and braces ( nearly said suspenders but thats for the US readers ) :embarrassed:

remember 

you cannot see it
you cannot smell it
but by ek you can feel it
 :zap:

worst jolt i have had apart from spark plugs is being up a ladder and getting across 550 vac TP no its not a typo that was a common supply when i did my time and i still have the scars

take care  maybe a bowl of milk will make Kitty behave

Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 15, 2015, 02:25:37 PM
3 wire plus earth on all machines/blocks etc  ;)

Will have to think about an extra extra earth lead  :headscratch:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 15, 2015, 05:51:23 PM
A duff motor  :disappointed:: it claims to be 2HP but the transwave can't start it

And trips the earth leakage trip out  :ShakeHead:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Roger B on April 15, 2015, 06:04:57 PM
Has it been stored outside? Do you have anywhere you can keep it warm 50-60C for a few days? Do you have/know someone with a Megger (Insulation resistance tester)?
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 15, 2015, 06:14:21 PM
Hi Roger, probably the same person who supplied it to me has a megger, he has everything else ;)

It has been inside for a good week and we are having a warm spell 8) So I don't think it dampness. I think it just another thing that is ganging up on me  :paranoia:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on April 15, 2015, 06:18:37 PM
Jo
To add to Roger,s comments

I would get it somwere warm and pop of the idle end end bell , and give it a sniff you will then know if the magic smoke is still inside ,  maybe a little warmth from a low powered fan heater , but do not get it above nice hand heat. It needs the end cover off to allow air to circulate

If you can get a mega I would not test above twice the operating voltage no need to stress the insulation any more that you need to.

Good luck with it

At the risk of getting bit try it without the earth wire disconnected but do not touch it that will negate the leakage trip
Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Roger B on April 15, 2015, 07:29:09 PM
If it is tripping the earth leakage circuit breaker the windings are either damp or damaged.

If the Transwave can't start it there are a couple of things to check/try. Some motors can be wired in delta for 230V (inverter connected to normal single phase mains) or in star for use on normal 400V 3 phase. There will be 6 terminals under the cover, three should be connected together and the supply should go to the other three for star (400V). If I remember correctly the motor in your Colchester is around this size so the Transwave should cope. A final check is to wrap some string around the motor shaft and get it spinning before you turn it on (note you will need to try both directions).
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 15, 2015, 08:03:39 PM
There is no funny smells. It has been 25 degrees for two days so that should have warmed it up.

I am not going to try it without an earth wire  :hellno: until I have checked the insultation with a megger

Roger, it only has three terminals under the cover so there is no choice of connection, the plate says 400/440V :( The motor was chosen as a 2HP as it is the same size as the Colchester. 

Another day, another night and no swarf to show for it :toilet_claw:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on April 15, 2015, 08:59:20 PM
Jo

without a earth is ok for a test just do not touch it

if you have a AVO/ or WHY  do a inter winding resistance reading it should be pretty close , I cannot say what it will be though , that should give you a clue to its health


The problem with us hands on sparks we test things in an unorthodox manner , take short cuts and forget that our/my methods may  be at odds to the modern thinking , but when the chips were down with a downtime of £40 million every 5 mins you had to come up with the answers , ek when I started they did not even issue marigolds for live working ,so sorry if my methods seem strange

Stuart




Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 15, 2015, 11:10:52 PM
Maybe I should go back to embroidery

That could mean the end of this forum for more than one member.  :Doh:

Such thoughts should not be uttered much less thought. Thinked? Thunk?  :insane:
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Don1966 on April 15, 2015, 11:46:52 PM
Jo if you have a regular volt ohm meter you can check the insulation to see how much of a ground you have. If you get 100K ohm it is certainly moisture. Once you verify it,s moisture remove the ground to run it only and no touching. Please use a amp meter when you run it to make sure your pulling equal current on all mains and no overload?

Don
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: sco on April 16, 2015, 07:55:13 AM
but I think they do need a proper three phase supply to keep them happy or so I have read

Yep, Which is why I have acquired a monster 2HP three phase motor to convert my static converter into a rotary converter  ;) once set up I will have to decide if I want to rewire the workshop with a 3 phase distribution board and sockets :naughty:

Jo

For those of us not so knowledgeable on this three phase lark why would you want to have a motor to convert a static converter into a rotary converter anyway?

Simon.
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on April 16, 2015, 08:08:26 AM
Simon

You don't
Let me explain a static converter (SC) is ok for 90% of uses
A rotary converter (RC ) will provide a more stable supply and offer some inertia into the system, also it enables the SC to be run without a minimum load so it is able to be changed to another machine without shuting down

Now back to my comment the Hardinge lathe demands a proper TP supply with the three legs in very good balance , this is not supplied with a SC as the manufacture the third leg, the Hardinge motor is very special unit and is electrically balanced as well as mechanically , so you have two choices best proper three phase from supply company or alternator set up , next best is a RC .

Hope that helps

Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: sco on April 16, 2015, 08:49:38 AM
Bottom line then is not only is the hardware expensive it's got special requirements on the electrical supply front and no doubt leveling and tooling fronts as well.

Jo - I think we need a separate thread to record it's arrival and installation ;-)

Simon.
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 16, 2015, 09:06:17 AM
Simon, I still haven't met my intended  :Love:

We will be going up to see him a week on friday. If it is love at first sight and I decide I can't live without him, and I feel a mad overwelming desire to let him come and live with me then I will start a thread all about him  ;)

But I don't want any of you getting jealous, I have been young free and single for all these years without any offers so sorry  I had to take things into my own hands  :embarassed:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on April 16, 2015, 10:05:04 AM
Is he totally free and single or like the others before still in a loving relationship?
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 16, 2015, 10:12:18 AM
I have been told he is awaiting my pleasure  :mischief:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Allen Smithee on April 16, 2015, 10:41:55 AM
Be sure to treat him nicely - you don't want him turning rough.

AS
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Allen Smithee on April 16, 2015, 11:58:04 AM
I don't think he will complain though - you're the first woman I've met who wants to keep the chatter to a minimum

PDR
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 16, 2015, 02:47:24 PM
The very nice gentalman at Transwave was very helpful, I cannot recomend them highly enough  8)

He tells me that my new friend has a dual speed 1.5HP motor and the lower speed at 720 rpm is not fast enough to invent the third phase.  I need a larger motor than the dual speed motor to act as a pilot motor to invent the third phase. I will have to adjust the switch on the front of the Transwave (= the "boost" which increases the output voltage  ;)) to alter the voltage once both motors are running changes the voltage: the higher the switch setting the more volts once the motor is started the volts need to settle at about 420V ;D

So I can run either the Colchester (3HP) or my Harrison (2HP) on no load to get what I need or add a pilot motor :whoohoo:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Allen Smithee on April 16, 2015, 02:53:04 PM
SO to help the new friend get started you need the colchester to lend a hand as a fluffer?

PDR
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on April 16, 2015, 04:20:48 PM
Best bung a few more solar panels on the roof too if you are going to have two motors running just to run one lathe., sounds a right PITA.

Its times like this that I'm glad to have one single phase lathe and one single phase mill :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 16, 2015, 04:58:39 PM
Its times like this that I'm glad to have one single phase lathe and one single phase mill :LittleDevil:

It could be worse some people would give your right arm to have either  :LittleDevil:.

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on April 16, 2015, 05:10:55 PM
Jo

Stop mucking about get your supply company in and get a TP & N supply in chuck out all the single phase stuff and get nice smooooth power to feed your desirables  :stir: :stir:


Stuart  :stir:
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Allen Smithee on April 16, 2015, 05:16:58 PM
It could be worse some people would give your right arm to have either  :LittleDevil:.

I wouldn't go that far, but I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous...

PDR
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on April 16, 2015, 05:23:18 PM
Might just be a bit more than Jo wants to spend ;)

As this is going to be your electric supply to the main machines is it not a bit risky using an iffy motor, the last thing you want is for it to die at the beginning of a holiday period and leave you without the main workhorses. A new 2HP 3-phase motor can be bought for £100 and that spread over the next 20-30 years of model making is not a lot to pay for peace of mind. Or better still sell the static and get a nice new rotary converter from that man.

J
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 16, 2015, 06:14:43 PM
Stop mucking about get your supply company in and get a TP & N supply in chuck out all the single phase stuff and get nice smooooth power to feed your desirables  :stir: :stir:

The price they quoted 20 years ago for the installation made it clear they did not want to do it. I could buy a couple of my friends much cheaper than they wanted back then  :ShakeHead:

Jason: A 3HP motor, which is what I would need, not this piddle little 2hp, is £200, I am thinking about buying one. The difference between a static converter and a rotary converter is a motor the size of the converter and not a lot else. If I fit one then if the contactor goes again like last time it will blow the pilot motor not the ones in the equipment  :whoohoo:

It would also mean I could use that finger tip reverse on the Colchester for screw cutting but not that I can see myself using the Colchester that much for screw cutting anymore :embarassed:
 
Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Allen Smithee on April 17, 2015, 09:46:30 AM
The price they quoted 20 years ago for the installation made it clear they did not want to do it.

It might be worth asking again - the electricity supply market has changed a lot since then. Perhaps it was just a phase they were going through...

AS
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 17, 2015, 09:58:20 AM
I am still not intending on having a new electricity cable run to the house from the transformer half way down the village for a slightly smoother starting of my machines :ShakeHead:

 :thinking: DRO fitting might not be as easy as I thought the scale on the cross slide has been known to interfere with the travelling steady. And I am hearing rumours that the top slide one also gets in the way but no one can tell me how  :noidea:

Jo

Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on April 17, 2015, 10:19:01 AM
Is there a need for a DRO, I had assumed these lathes were so good that you would not have to worry about backlash and could just use the handwheel dials for perfect results :stir:

Magnetic one may well fit in that space rather than a glass one.

And how often are you likely to use a traveling steady? I've had lathes for and been making models for over 30years and never used a traveling steady, may just be easier to whip off the DRO on the rare occasion that you need the steady.
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 17, 2015, 10:39:21 AM
Is there a need for a DRO, I had assumed these lathes were so good that you would not have to worry about backlash and could just use the handwheel dials for perfect results :stir:

 :old: Its me eyesight I prefer 14mm high digits staring me in the face rather than the 4mm ones on the handles.

If you use the back lash adjusters (pic attached) then it will be minimal, a DRO is just belt and braces in case you have been bad and not shown your lathe the care and attention it deserves: You do remember to maintain the backlash adjusters on each of your lathe axis don't you Jason  ;)

I use the travelling steady for machining my 10 and 12BA fixings ;)

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Allen Smithee on April 17, 2015, 10:40:12 AM
...or just ignore the Hardinge travelling steady (which is likely to cost an arm, all 12 toes and most of yopur lower right leg even if you can find one) and make a more conventional one that doesn't conflict with a DRO as and when you need it.

AS
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 17, 2015, 10:43:55 AM
...or just ignore the Hardinge travelling steady (which is likely to cost an arm, all 12 toes and most of your lower right leg even if you can find one) and make a more conventional one that doesn't conflict with a DRO as and when you need it.

That is the current plan  ;)

Actually the gadgets for my new friend are not very expensive, my supplier brought the steady in the picture yesterday from a dealer for £75  :drinking-41:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on April 17, 2015, 12:40:04 PM
Maybe a pair of specs would be the cheaper option ;)

Funny enough on the mill I prefer to use the handwheel scale as I find it easier and quicker to stop turning at zero and whatever the opposite reading is (allowing for backlash) than trying to tease the handwheel round to the last 0.0002" on the screen. I always do this when machining say a pocket like those exhaust ports I showed you yesterday, use the DRO to set one extream and zero the handwheel, use DRO to set the opposite extream and note the handwheel reading and then simply go back and forth with the handwheel between zero and that reading.

Plus I like to measure the part or test fit against its matching component rather than machine to where the DRO says the carrage is that may or may not relate to where the tool tip is depending on how much the tool is being pushed away from the work or work away from the tool.

Seems to produce models with good compression, valves that seal, straight crankshafts and engines that turn over smoothly and easily, what more could I want ;)
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on April 17, 2015, 12:48:58 PM
Jason
The problem is usually arms to short when the lamps go , for WS use I have a pair of bifocals top bit reading spec bottom bit 150mm focus

Funny though I do not have dials on the mill since I upgraded the thrust bearing and use a Newall dro
But on the lathe I use dial tho they are diameter reading IE 1mm on the dial 1mm off dia.

Jo
Is your friend,s dials metric or infernal ,as I think you. Prefer the metric system , I know I do

Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 17, 2015, 01:08:53 PM
Stuart, We don't know yet but I am betting on the inferior system but I am not sure as he has been busy trying to tempt me by showing his bits off to me :mischief:

As you will have guessed that is the "rare as rocking horse do-das" metric gear set so he will be able to do 0.1 to 3.0mm Pitch as well as 10 to 250 TPI  :whoohoo:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on April 17, 2015, 01:34:10 PM
Jo

10tpi I thought they bottomed out at 11 tpi

I hope he measures up to your expectations


Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 17, 2015, 01:50:53 PM
10tpi I thought they bottomed out at 11 tpi

With the gearbox yes, but as standard you get five gears that you can mount on the outside English bracket and that lets you go down to 10 tpi. But if I want to go silly the Colchester will cut 4TPI  :naughty:

The larger quadrant is the metric quadrant, same gears as the extended English gear set just needs the go larger cover and that 127 tooth gear  8)

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 17, 2015, 04:17:17 PM
.... what more could I want ;)

Jason if you have never tried it you don't know what you are missing. I promise never to let you find out  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 21, 2015, 04:56:48 PM
I go away on a Business trip and a very nice man hands me a box and tells me this is a little something for the man in your life.  :whoohoo:

Jo

Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on April 21, 2015, 05:23:23 PM
Backplate or drive plate :)
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Twizseven on April 21, 2015, 05:31:48 PM
Jo,
I put three phase in to my property a number of years ago.  The 3 phase supply runs past the property and each house takes a phase in turn. I negotiated with the electricity board to do all the digging, I exposed the main 3 phase cable at the end of front garden. Ended up with a 6ft x 6ft x 6 ft hole and then dug back to garage. Laid an electricity supplied duct in the trench, put up my own 3  phase junction box and fed their cable through the duct. All they had to do was fit meter and connect to my tails and join the ducted cable to their meter and the newly exposed cable in the front garden.  This kept the cost down significantly.  Done this twice in last 40 years.

Colin
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 21, 2015, 05:38:16 PM
Colin you are assuming I live on a normal street  :ShakeHead:

My power comes in on over head cables, they wanted to run a new over head cable for about 500m, add some new "telegraph" posts and charge me for an uprade to the local transformer  :paranoia:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 21, 2015, 05:44:37 PM
Backplate or drive plate :)

Catch plate, a little something he is missing.

He has also been offered a back plate but it come attached to a second 3 jaw chuck  ::)

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on April 21, 2015, 06:22:29 PM
I suppose you could accept the backplate and assuming there is enough metal recut the register if needed for one of your favorite chucks, assuming the one already on it is not upto scratch and sell on the chuck using the money to treat him to other goodies.

With his 11" swing do you see yourself using him for most of your work and just the very large stuff on the colchester or might you want to keep cast iron swarf away from his shiny bits?
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 21, 2015, 07:11:04 PM
They are both OEM chucks so I doubt that the register will need re-cutting  :embarassed:

I am told he comes with a very nice 3 jaw chuck and I have a brand new one already, so that is the necessary two three jaws  ;)


Having used one of his contemporaries I suspect that I will not want to use any of the other lathes but I will probably stick to the current practise of very large/long stuff on the Colchester and every day work on my new friend  :drinking-41:.

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on April 21, 2015, 07:52:29 PM
I am told he comes with a very nice 3 jaw chuck and I have a brand new one already, so that is the necessary two three jaws  ;) Jo

Is that to save having to change jaws? if it is won't you want a third for the soft jaws?
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 21, 2015, 07:54:42 PM
Actually I found someone who has 5 brand new packets of soft jaws for them  ;D

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on April 21, 2015, 08:03:10 PM
It would take a long time to get through 5 sets you you should be OK for a while ;) Add a few stepped 5C collets and you should have all options covered.
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Twizseven on April 21, 2015, 08:16:07 PM
Jo, 

I should have known better.  I'm sure the neighbours would have appreciated a power upgrade.

Colin
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 21, 2015, 08:33:35 PM
Add a few stepped 5C collets and you should have all options covered.

A 5C stepped chuck to use their correct name ;) are good but not if your collet holder relies on the taper on the little 5C collet to close it :disappointed: Each size of stepped chuck has a special closer that fits to the nose of the lathe to close it for accurate work holding  8).

For those of you who have not used step chucks they are designed to take over above the diameter of normal collets: you bore them out like soft jaws but like a collet they do not grip on three places but all the way around and the stepped chuck closers ensure that even with the largest 6" the gripping pressure is evenly applied on the outside of the chuck over the stepped area of the chuck :whoohoo:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on April 22, 2015, 08:56:09 AM
Thanks for adding the photos, it's all become clear now. I can see how the taper on the outside will provide much more closing force than the usual small 5C one :)
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 22, 2015, 09:23:16 AM
There are a couple of other interesting 5C "fittings" that they do like:

5C Plug Chuck: a blank 5C for machining arbors.

5C Taper Hole collet: a hardened collet with No 1 or No 2 morse taper or the alternative Brown and Sharpe tapers.

 :facepalm: I'm becoming a tool bore: I must try and get out to make some swarf

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Allen Smithee on April 22, 2015, 09:59:39 AM
:facepalm: I'm becoming a tool bore:

The join the rest of us in the boring bar...

[I'll fetch me coat]

PDR
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on April 22, 2015, 12:19:59 PM
We will be sitting round the "rotary table "  :stir:


Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 22, 2015, 01:22:47 PM
Thanks Stuart, I am getting worried that if he moves in that he is likely to try taking over my workshop  :embarassed:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on April 22, 2015, 02:22:36 PM
You will be OK unless he brings his sister you know what they say two,s company three a crowd

You don't want any gooseberry,s to spoil your fun with him , but make sure the floor is swept clean and you have a clean pinny on  :stir:


Stuart

Ps some pics will be nice after the honeymoon
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on April 22, 2015, 02:26:24 PM
I've seen the pics from the machinery dating site, just hope he is as good in the flesh as the ones posted, you never can tell these days.

Looks like you better get a shift on and move that workshop wall, maybe even further than you thought if all this extra baggage that he comes with starts to mount up.

Will he get the nice sunny spot infront of the window?
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 22, 2015, 02:47:09 PM
He was going to get the window seat but he is as big as the Colchester, then he wants another 13" on the left to allow the collet closer to be removed and I am trying to avoid moving that wall  :paranoia:

The current housing plan involves cutting down the work bench, moving Cowells 2 into the house and finding someone to give Cowells 1 a new home. But I won't really know what is needed until he gets here, it does feel like a take over bid :-\

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Allen Smithee on April 22, 2015, 03:25:13 PM
I'm wondering if Jo is being internet-groomed by a 100-year-old Boxford posing with borrowed photographs...

AS
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: John Hill on April 22, 2015, 10:37:42 PM
He was going to get the window seat but he is as big as the Colchester, then he wants another 13" on the left to allow the collet closer to be removed and I am trying to avoid moving that wall  :paranoia:


I am sure that would be the ideal place to put in a new window!
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 23, 2015, 07:25:38 AM
I had another measure: to the end of the Prazimat from the wall is 58", his base is 68" and the removal of the collet closer needs another 13", so he wants 81" :( , I could drop the end of the bench 1/2" under the over lap but that only gains an extra 4". Or I cut the distance I need off the end of the bench and I find myself standing opposite a pillar rather than the window when I am turning   :-[

If I move the wall I can gain 24": its the obvious way to go, its going to take forever  :paranoia:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on April 23, 2015, 07:50:35 AM
Take out the whole bench along that wall and put him on the right hand side where you used to have the hobbymat, should put you opposite the right hand window and his head where the column is. Add a small bench to fill in the space between door and the lathe where the PZ is which the closer can oversail.

He probably stands out further from the wall so this would also stop him blocking the doorway.
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on April 23, 2015, 07:53:34 AM
Jo

By EK he's a demanding fella , I just knew he would take over the WS , but he will be worth it in the long run , give him a nice place and you will both be happy

Do it know not later or you wil not do it

4 inches surly you ment 100 mm , but you had me going for a moment  :mischief:

Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 23, 2015, 08:23:56 AM
Jason that would loose my assembly bench  :o He is no wider than the Prazimat, but he is a bit taller 

4 inches surly you ment 100 mm , but you had me going for a moment  :mischief:

Stuart: He's an American  :shrug: This is just one of his bad habits that I will slowly have to discourage but don't let on just yet   ;)


The advantage of moving the wall is I will then have the space for the bigger mill  ;D and if I move the vice bench to the middle I could fit even more desirable machine tools in  :pinkelephant: But then I think about the amount of work moving that wall, all that engine making time lost :toilet_claw:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on April 23, 2015, 08:31:05 AM
Jo

This may help

http://www.lyricsmode.com/lyrics/j/james_brown/just_do_it.html


Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on April 23, 2015, 09:21:11 AM
The other disadvantage of moving the wall at the window side of the workshop is you will end up with teh side door opening straight into the workshop and loose that airlock space you have now to keep the heat in.  Are are you only thinking of moving it the width of the third window pane?

I think I would do as above and then when the bigamist Bridgeport turns up put a dogleg in the partition where you have the pillar drill and just move the partition beyond that.

Your assembly bench would be where you currently have the PZ and lets face it these little aero engines don't need a lot of room to assemble :)
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 23, 2015, 09:37:38 AM
Are are you only thinking of moving it the width of the third window pane?

Yes that is why it is only 24" of movement.

I think I would do as above and then when the bigamist Bridgeport turns up put a dogleg in the partition where you have the pillar drill and just move the partition beyond that.

I was going to move the entire wall, keeping it flat and gain the 24" the full width, which would give me space for a bigger mill like a Beaver that has a nice 30 Int nose and is rigid enough to make swarf at a good pace >:D

Your assembly bench would be where you currently have the PZ and lets face it these little aero engines don't need a lot of room to assemble :)

:headscratch: The Aeronca, Anzani's, Cirrus and Gypsy are not pocket sized engines :stickpoke:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on April 23, 2015, 10:05:00 AM
Ok so 610mm is not going to interfear with the external door.

How often are you likely to need to remove the collet closer? if not often think about a hinged panel in the partition.

I still think that putting him here

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/Workshops_and_tools/IMG_1290.jpg)

Would be the best place as you will have a window to day machine-dream out of, the green cutting mat assembly bench can then move to here

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/Workshops_and_tools/IMG_1289.jpg)

Which will place his headstock by the column where you have the wooden draws, you will then have room to remove the collet closer above the assembly bench and also have easy access to the banjo when you want him to play a different tune, also allows long metal to stick out the spindle if needed.

You could do this without having to move the partition which could be left until the mill is sorted, it will have to be taken down to get the mill in anyway, only slight downside is the assembly bench will want extending 610mm.
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 23, 2015, 11:35:29 AM
No the door is about 1200mm from the wall. I might have to remove the storage heater from behind where he is going. That is a speed frame bench and I don't have any more of it  :disappointed:.

The manual recommends that you remove the Collet closer when it is not being used. As it is just a single pin and it slides out that is not a problem if there is the required space.

Those wooden drawers now belong to Sexy, I don't want the two of them to find out about each other :hellno:

When the partition wall was built it was designed to be moved again, I am not sure if I would use the word "easily"  :paranoia:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 24, 2015, 07:56:16 AM
The date is on: I should be meeting him for lunch today  :whoohoo:

I must try to be good  :embarassed:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on April 24, 2015, 07:58:18 AM
Will you be bringing him home at the end of the first date?
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 24, 2015, 08:03:43 AM
:hellno:

I have got to get the workshop straight first: I don't want him getting the wrong impression of me  :embarassed:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on April 24, 2015, 08:10:30 AM
Hope he turns out to be as good in the flesh metal as he looked in the photos, Being the propper lady :Lol: that you are I assume you are going with your chaperone who will give him a good vetting first?

J
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 24, 2015, 08:24:08 AM
Of course, he will be checking that all of his attributes will meet my expectations and my intended is not trying to hid anything behind that sprinkling of swarf  ;)

We are going to try not to bring too much other stuff home with us today but I have seen at least one dividing head that is looking tempting, if we can lift it  :lolb:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 24, 2015, 04:45:11 PM
(http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Happy/happy-096.gif)
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on April 24, 2015, 04:50:38 PM
 :drinking-41:

Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on April 24, 2015, 06:35:50 PM
Sounds like you will be rearranging the workshop this weekend :)
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Roger B on April 24, 2015, 06:59:01 PM
 :drinking-41:
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 24, 2015, 07:24:33 PM
 :embarassed: He started work the year after I started my Apprenticeship so that must mean he is slightly younger than me  :naughty:

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/Workshops_and_tools/Jos%20Friend%201.jpg)

We share the same fascination with Swiss tool holders  ;D

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/Workshops_and_tools/IMG_9137.jpg)

He seems to have spent all his life turning up bits for electric motors and by the looks of his swarf in his suds tray it has been aluminium all of the time.

And the dating agency threw in a little something to help close the deal  ;)

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/jothoms/Workshops_and_tools/IMG_9136.jpg)

Now I just have to wait until Wednesday  :drinking-41:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on April 24, 2015, 07:46:55 PM
Hmm , American chap, imagine that :cheers:   :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Big E
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 24, 2015, 07:54:02 PM
A west country boy he was built in Exeter  :DrinkPint:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: b.lindsey on April 24, 2015, 08:07:39 PM
Very nice Jo, we should all have such friends :)

Bill
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on April 24, 2015, 08:17:49 PM
Jo, whats the item that looks like a motor with a red end at the back of the feed speed control ?

How many dividing heads do you have now, I've lost count :-[ And does the thread suit the Hardinge chucks?
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 24, 2015, 08:24:31 PM
Jo, whats the item that looks like a motor with a red end at the back of the feed speed control ?

That's the suds pump  ;)

Dividing heads: One 4" Elliott set, two VDHs  :Love:, One Cowells (plus the two Cowells indexing heads). Then a second incomplete 4" Elliot  :mischief:

I already have all the gear wheels, banjo arms, tailstock and two sets of plates for the 5" Elliott Universal which is why Malcolm gave it to me  ;D. I don't yet have any mountings for the nose but it won't take long to make some and it has a nice big hole through the centre. I need to check if it can drive the table on the Harrison, I suspect it is too big for it  :lolb:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 25, 2015, 08:51:24 AM
Step 1 Preparing the way  to move the wall :paranoia:


1, This corner was full  :( : The BSA B40 has had to move somewhere else  :-\ The swimming pool that was stored there has had to be given away  :disappointed: The BBQ stuff  :noidea: Behind them all are some doors  :naughty:


2, It will be moving the other side of that window and I am hoping that the hot bench will still fit there.

3, Then what will be his new domain ;D .


4, From the other side the double doors are behind the bench, so that will have to be cleared before he arrives  :(  The side window  :headscratch: Lots of drawers to move  :ShakeHead:

:toilet_claw:

Jo

Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Steamer5 on April 25, 2015, 10:22:36 AM
Hi Jo,
 Looks like you need to S5 the workshop! :lolb:

Had to do the same when my new toy arrived, moved everything into the spare garage, then sort & get rid of the unwonted stuff, well according to SWMBO, trouble is there's no unwonted treasures!

Oh IF you do S5 I'm guessing that there will be some willing helpers to remove the unloved...errrr unwanted items! Now if freight wasn't so expensive :thinking:

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: sco on April 25, 2015, 11:41:14 AM
Sounds like you need a working party to help clear the way.....

Simon.
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 25, 2015, 12:05:34 PM
1, The doors scrape the floor  :facepalm2: but they are open

2&3, The window is out and I have found the wire drops  :)

Must be time to think about the electrics. I don't want to be in the dark in the evenings  :disappointed:

The working party of one arrives tomorrow, it is costing lunch and dinner but it is looking promising.

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: tangler on April 25, 2015, 12:36:04 PM
I got a bit worried there,  I thought I'd seen a wood saw hanging up behind the drill press  :o ...but now I realise that it's an Eclipse sheet saw.  Phew!

Good luck with the re-arrangements; take it easy,

Rod
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 25, 2015, 02:44:26 PM
Thanks Rod  :), I have a second of those sheet saws hiding under the bench, maybe not any more, I wonder where that has been put  :headscratch: I was expecting to find the workshop gnomes hoard as I moved the benches and things but he must have realised something was amiss yesterday when the boxes of my new friends stuff was brought into the workshop and has tucked it in a very safe place.

The never ending saga  :-\

Thankfully the two lighting wires are long enough and won't need extending but the ring main wires are too short  :ShakeHead:

Then I found out that while the wall is not attached to the ceiling or floor it was to the other two walls  :-[ More panels came off so I could get a screwdriver in and a bolster :ShakeHead:

For many years I have had a little Thor No 4 hide mallet, I had never found a use for it but today it is making friends with the wall :naughty:

Its moving  :whoohoo:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 25, 2015, 03:11:29 PM
A nice man has just phoned to confirm that my new friend has another 7 Multi fix tool holders on the way and the missing faceplate  :whoohoo:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on April 25, 2015, 03:23:24 PM
Jo

Remember take any moving slowly , I thought you may find the gnomes nest , but as its nesting season they are pretty cunning Devils

As to the ring main can you not pull each end of the loop back and extend them with a 30a junky box and a bit of T&E

By ekk though this new man is causing some up work to make him happy but I am sure it will be worth it in the end


Take care and work safely
Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 25, 2015, 05:31:59 PM
Thanks Stuart,

I have company tomorrow afternoon to help with the moving  ;)

That was my plans but I have left the power to the workshop off and I will wait until the morning to do the electrics. Last thing to do is be messing around with electrics when you are tired  :hellno:

Yes he is already a trouble maker not even here yet and he has me running around for him  :drinking-41:


So I have the required 24"  :whoohoo: Now to try to get the world the right way up again, I have already painted the bare wood  :(

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on April 25, 2015, 06:10:33 PM
By ekk Jo thou is a fearsome worker when you get the bit between your teeth.

I bet you have all this worked out in your head before you started the only thing that stopped you was your acceptance of your intended once that was in place the plan was actioned .

now you have a rotary converter are you installing it outside the WS in the car side of things to keep the sound level down a bit ?


Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Roger B on April 25, 2015, 07:04:00 PM
That's a lot of work to get your new friend in but I am sure it will be worth it  :)  Our downstairs neighbour used to be the Hardinge sales rep for Switzerland and was explaining to me a couple of months ago how rigid they were and how they could turn steels that normally had to be ground  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on April 25, 2015, 07:42:30 PM
Zeez, this is like giving birth,  push Jo, push :lolb: :naughty:

Big E :lolb:
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 26, 2015, 07:35:51 AM
Stuart, there is no point in sitting watching the job all the time the workshop is a mess I am not making swarf  :ShakeHead:

The electrics for today is only the single phase. I might be lucky and pick up a motor with my new friend on Wednesday they have a very nice one which is supposed to go in a Colchester Student but the machine had been converted to single phase  :hellno: The potential buyer for that is going on Monday hopefully he will accept it with the single phase and I will buy the 2.2KW motor  :)

Roger, I still don't know how well he turns as it wasn't until I was driving back from seeing my new friend that I realised that I didn't actually get to twiddle his knobs: Eric was having too much fun, he did the evaluation and was negotiating the purchase before you could say "Jack Rabbit", what I got was a "yes he's good to go, you need him"

Zeez, this is like giving birth,  push Jo, push :lolb: :naughty:

Give us time I only met him on Friday, it won't be long before we start making little engines together  :mischief:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: sco on April 26, 2015, 08:44:50 AM
So all this space making - does that mean there will be no refugees?

Simon.
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 26, 2015, 09:14:49 AM
The consensus is that I should only need my new friend in the workshop so I won't need one of the Cowells  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on April 26, 2015, 10:14:40 AM
The consensus is that I should only need my new friend in the workshop so I won't need one of the Cowells  ;)

Jo

Tell consensus that a ploughing engine winding drum is too big for the new lad so he can't be the only man in your life workshop
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 26, 2015, 10:16:53 AM
I think the ploughing drum might be about the right size for the base of a Cowells  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on April 26, 2015, 11:25:26 AM


The electrics for today is only the single phase. I might be lucky and pick up a motor with my new friend on Wednesday they have a very nice one which is supposed to go in a Colchester Student but the machine had been converted to single phase  :hellno: The potential buyer for that is going on Monday hopefully he will accept it with the single phase and I will buy the 2.2KW motor


Jo I hate to bring you some news but he will not fit in your car when you pick him up on Wednesday, how are you moving him or is it part of the deal  :stir:

Good luck with all the work and the moving day

Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: sco on April 26, 2015, 12:12:00 PM
The consensus is that I should only need my new friend in the workshop so I won't need one of the Cowells  ;)

Jo

 ;D
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 26, 2015, 02:24:45 PM
Jo I hate to bring you some news but he will not fit in your car when you pick him up on Wednesday, how are you moving him or is it part of the deal  :stir:

I have a mad Aussie picking it up for me in his transit for some beer tokens  :cheers:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on April 26, 2015, 03:24:31 PM
Jo

Ahh Castlemain 4x. A pin should do , maybe a firkin but certainly not a hogshead  :drinking-41: but maybe a  :DrinkPint:

BTW I have found were the gnomes live its a new traffic island in ilson people put gnomes on it for fun ans the I D Ten T council adopted it , go figure wot they do at the meetings.


Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 26, 2015, 05:36:27 PM
:whoohoo: All done: Power on, cabinets/tools back in place. I am ready and waiting  :embarassed:

I also managed to have my helper clean up the 4 jaw chuck  8) While I did all the Multifix tool holders. There are a few spares parts for the holder needed before my new friend arrives.

The one piece of bad news is the face plate turned up and it fits the threaded nose lathe  :-[

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on April 26, 2015, 05:52:25 PM
Well done to you both,

Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 29, 2015, 06:51:28 AM
Todays the day he's coming to stay  :whoohoo:

:headscratch: I can never understand why you boys don't find getting a new friend for your workshop as exciting as I do.

A bit of progress: I have been allowed to join the Yahoo group for my friend and Charley was good enough to point me at a link that shows I can indeed turn the necessary taper on the inside of my faceplate I acquired  ;D

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on April 29, 2015, 07:15:38 AM
Jo

Up here in the north we have a tradition when a new comer enters

Make sure the floor is swept
A clean table cloth on the table
A clean Pinny on

And last but not least the front step scrubed and stoned

Then you are ready to receive the new comer

Hope the weather is better that here it's raining  :o
Have a safe install

And yes us mere male do have a certain thrill with new equipment ,but to me they are like cars a tool to get something done  but that's me .

Stuart

Edit it's now doing felines and canines.
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on April 29, 2015, 07:39:40 AM

:headscratch: I can never understand why you boys don't find getting a new friend for your workshop as exciting as I do.

We probably don't do it anywhere near as often as you so you won't find us writing about it every few months  :LittleDevil:

Hope it all goes well.
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Roger B on April 29, 2015, 11:12:25 AM
Congratulations on your new arrival  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:  :wine1:
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Allen Smithee on April 29, 2015, 11:46:46 AM
Jo

Up here in the north we have a tradition when a new comer enters

Make sure the floor is swept
A clean table cloth on the table
A clean Pinny on

And last but not least the front step scrubed and stoned

Then you are ready to receive the new comer

Hope the weather is better that here it's raining  :o
Have a safe install

And yes us mere male do have a certain thrill with new equipment ,but to me they are like cars a tool to get something done  but that's me .

Stuart

Edit it's now doing felines and canines.

Down here in the south we have similar a tradition when a new comer enters:

Make sure the housekeeping staff have swept the floor
Make sure the upstairs maids have put a clean table cloth on the table
Make sure all upstairs staff are correctly dressed in frshly laundered livery

And last but not least ensure the flogging of the grounds staff until the drive gravel is neat & tidy and the front steps are sufficiently scrubed and stoned that they would be clean enough for surgical procedures, and that all blood splattered duringf the process is correctly cleaned away.

Then the head butler is ready to great the new comers and conduct them into one of the day rooms to be received by the household.

AS
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on April 29, 2015, 03:34:56 PM
Well Jo
Have got him tucked up in his new home ?


Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 29, 2015, 03:40:05 PM
Yes thank you Stuart I have just got rid of the last of my guests so we can spend our first night together  :mischief:


It was along trip back to Oxford in rush hour traffic to get him. Having got there my wheeling and dealing for the 2.2KW electric motor came to nothing as the person who was supposed to be buying the single phase Colchester had decided against it, so it was not spare  :hammerbash: 


1&2, My friend was taped and wrapped in cling film to stop him getting wet. Put on a pallet truck and winched into the back of Wayne's transit  :)

3, 4 & 5, Then we had a 2 hour drive home and another 30 mins waiting for him to arrive with Wayne. He came out nice and smoothly, anyone would have thought Wayne does this for a living  ;)


6, He has been swung into the workshop and is ready for the necessary stroking and fondling :embarassed:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Allen Smithee on April 29, 2015, 03:54:49 PM
Do we get to pop by and throw confetti?

 :mischief:

AS
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on April 29, 2015, 04:12:45 PM
Do we get to pop by and throw confetti?

 :mischief:

AS

I think an handfull of swarf would be more appropriate.

I notice he did not come willing and had to be strapped down :ShakeHead:

So will you be sleeping in the workshop tonight Jo?
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Allen Smithee on April 29, 2015, 04:27:24 PM
Presumably the final move off the palette and into his designated wall space will take just a couple of hours (and possibly a little catering)?

AS
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on April 29, 2015, 04:58:06 PM
Jo
Looks like a well thought out move , nice to see

Just one question for my inquiring mind what was the car in the first pic ?

The only thing is now you have no excuse for poor finish on your parts  :stir:

Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 29, 2015, 05:04:35 PM
He will not be finally moved into place for a few weeks. His is due some attention first  8)

Just one question for my inquiring mind what was the car in the first pic ?

Malcolm's Silver Ghost Tourer ;) What you cannot see it the multitude of old British motorcycles that my new friend has been living with  :embarassed:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: mike mott on April 29, 2015, 05:08:22 PM
Quote
what was the car in the first pic ?

Looked like the back end of a Rolls to me.

Nice looking lathe Jo, no I'm not jealous. just thinking about when I have enough money.....

Mike
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 30, 2015, 01:03:30 PM
Mike the lathe of your desire will never be as cheap as it is today as the longer you have it and use it the lower the cost per day works out  ;). The other argument is that unlike buying a new car/lathe buying a quality second hand professional lathe your estate will probably find that they get all of your original outlay back when they sell it after you no longer need it  :-\


:Doh: Boy I had forgotten how expensive having a fella around is: Day 1 and he needs some new bed wipers. Of his original wipers the one at the front had disintergrated and the one at the back did so when I tried to peel it off  >:( So I contacted ZMT the spares providers: They must have gone "Female asking for lathe spare lets try it on" :censored: £102 plus Vat plus postage  :hellno:


The original is a piece of neoprene rubber that is there to discourage swarf getting under his saddle, its about 200mm long and 50mm high. I seem to be able to buy a 5m length of the stuff for just over £10 on Fleabay :thinking: I need less than 500mm, cut them out... I have another 4.5m to play with if I get it wrong

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: mike mott on April 30, 2015, 02:27:08 PM
Jo, I will have the money soon enough, as soon as I sell this place and then move to Vancouver island I will be able to buy a lathe in Vancouver  which has a much larger marketplace and also I would not have to ship it the extra 1200 miles. That is my plan.

Original spares, are usually outrageous for anybody just think about Myford.... when I bought mine brand new with 3 and 4 jaw chucks and motor and tooling it was $500 I wouldn't want to buy an original Myford Spanner these days.

Mike
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on April 30, 2015, 02:39:42 PM
Jo

Like a Lamborghini or prancing horse , or a lesser extent my BMW spares are dear one tire for mine is £250

Expensive machine expensive spare , hope you never need some head stock bearings that would be mega bucks

Glad you are getting to know your new friend a bit more intimately  :happyreader:

Are you still going the dro route or maybe ( don't be silly Stuart it would be a expensive do) replace the top slide and compound dials and feed screws ect. For metric units?

I do agree with your costing reasons with the lathe the price will have stabilised and it is unlikely to drop further .

I would have one but the WS is not big enough and access is very poor it would not fit though the passage never mind the steps ( which I do not need to get to the WS ) steps and crutches are not good bed fellows, even the three phase would be easy as we have HSOS and all three phases and neutral are on our property
Looking forward to a pic of him in his operating position and a close up of his work maybe a bit on EN8 would be a good comparison

Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 30, 2015, 06:11:41 PM
Glad you are getting to know your new friend a bit more intimately  :happyreader:

He's undergoing a bit of attention at the moment: We were doing well until I tried playing with his little squirter on his saddle and nothing came out :ShakeHead:. The idea is each time you give it a quick couple of pulls and should provides lubrication where you need it, I can only guess no one has been playing with him recently  :shrug:

Quote
Are you still going the dro route or maybe ( don't be silly Stuart it would be a expensive do) replace the top slide and compound dials and feed screws ect. For metric units?

:lolb: If they wanted over a ton for two little bits of rubber to protect him I can only imagine what they might try asking for a new set of screws and nuts. A 3 channel DRO is the order of the day  8)

I am pleased to say is doesn't look like he has any use  :whoohoo:. The grease in the gearbox has dried up such that the selector gets stuck if you try to move it to the far left and his cross slide screw is pristine.

Don't hold your breath I will be preparing him properly before I start using him  ;).

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on April 30, 2015, 06:20:33 PM
Jo
Bet the metering units are bunged up , but be careful they are all different sizes to get a even supply to all parts , and I bet they to are expensive :stir:

Try rodding the pipes out with pipe cleaners and flush though with isopropanol ( don't drink it though )

So it may be a month before he struts his stuff  :P

Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on April 30, 2015, 06:35:23 PM
I would have thought with his screwcutting prowess you should be able to knock up a few nuts and feedscrews in no time between the two of you.

I would have thought he has seen a fair bit of use going by the way the paint has been worn away from the items in the front of the apron and the carrage stop

J
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Dave Otto on April 30, 2015, 07:30:12 PM

He's undergoing a bit of attention at the moment: We were doing well until I tried playing with his little squirter on his saddle and nothing came out :ShakeHead:. The idea is each time you give it a quick couple of pulls and should provides lubrication where you need it, I can only guess no one has been playing with him recently  :shrug:


Hi Jo

On our HLVs at work you need to pull the plunger up and hold it there for a few seconds which allows the oil to fill the cavity under the piston. The when you let it go it should stay up and gradually move down as the spring pressure pushes the oil out to the lube points. If the plunger immediately drops back down you either need to hold it up longer or find out why the oil isn't filling the pump cavity.

If I'm telling you something you already know I'm sorry and I will crawl back under my rock.

Congrats on your new fella.

Dave

Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on April 30, 2015, 09:10:26 PM
Thanks Dave,

I found that the copper pipe from the pump to the oil ways had a dry joint and was not attached to the brass nut on the end.

That is now soldered back together and I have to decide what to do about the non return valve in the nut from what I can see once the brass cap is clamped down there is no space for the ball to move :headscratch:

And for those of you who use water based coolant this is the effect it has  :ShakeHead:

The gear selector lever is moving nice and smooooothly now that I have removed the dried on grease  :)

Jo

Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 01, 2015, 08:40:14 AM
 :headscratch: Having removed the Aluminium junction block I was rather challenged to get the oilers themselves out. they seemed to float but the instructions gave no clue.

Having slept on it I decided that coolant residue must have got round there some how so gave them a yank with something that provided a better grip. Out they slid  :) the bed ones are longer than the saddle ones so I can't confuse matters.

The more and more I work on him the more I am suspecting that my Prazimat has done more work than he has in his life  ;D

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Allen Smithee on May 01, 2015, 10:32:02 AM
Sheesh!

She's only had her new man for a couple of days and ALREADY she's accusing him of being lazy and saying how she's going to make him work harder.

Typical woman...

 :stir:

AS
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on May 01, 2015, 10:39:27 AM
Getting rid of his dirty habbits too by the looks of things. :ThumbsUp:

This is not aimed at you Jo just a general observation. Its strange how you get people telling you an old lathe is a better bet and they go on about the percieved need to strip and clean the imported machines, seems they forget about whats needed to get an old boy back upto spec. When I have been able to plug and play with my two imports almost straight away and not spend a month getting to a working condition.
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on May 01, 2015, 11:04:57 AM
Looks like his mam never told him wash behind his tabs :slap:

Never mind a bit of spit on the flannel win soon sort it.

When you have it bottomed you can start from a clean slate and look after him to your standard

What flood coolant are you planning to use synthetic or water base ?

Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 01, 2015, 11:07:42 AM
No Jason other than that broken oil way which could have equally happened on a new lathe in transport he was fit for purpose when he arrived,  you have missed the point of what I am doing, let me explain using the words of Hart, Lorenz / Rodgers, Richard:

It's a very ancient saying,  But a true and honest thought
 That if you become a teacher,  By your pupils you'll be taught
 As a teacher I've been learning, You'll forgive me if I boast
 And I've now become an expert,  On the subject I like most

Getting to know him, Getting to know all about him
 Getting to like him, Getting to hope he likes me
 Getting to know him,
 Putting it my way but nicely,  He is precisely my cup of tea

Getting to know him,  Getting to feel free and easy
 When I am with him getting to know what to say
 Haven't you noticed suddenly I'm bright and breezy?
 Because of all the beautiful and new things I'm learning about him day by day


I am not yet an expert but I am working on it  :whoohoo:

Normal model engine building will resume shortly  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 01, 2015, 11:12:07 AM
Looks like his mam never told him wash behind his tabs :slap:

Yes Stuart I fear he is another who thinks stubble/swarf is a designer feature rather than a sign that he really needs to learn to wash more often  :disappointed: I will be looking after him properly  :embarassed:

Based on what I have found I was planning to scrounge pickup some synthetic flood coolant off of my supplier  8)

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Roger B on May 01, 2015, 11:34:24 AM
I am glad you are getting on well together  :)

This gentleman has taken on an even more complex Hardinge project (and noted the cost of the wipers  ;) ).

http://www.f1-2000.co.uk/index.php?f=hardinge_hxl

Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 01, 2015, 11:49:44 AM
Thanks Roger, That is a very nice HXL he has there  :naughty:.

I also managed to nab a picture of the wipers from that site ;) The rear one is slightly different a it has a cut out for access to the screw for the tapered gib strip. Had I mentioned like Sexy he has Tapered gib strips and their relative position also indicates no wear  8)

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 01, 2015, 06:01:33 PM
His squirty bit is all functional again  :) and he is now all nice and clean, except his base and the inside of the coolant/suds tank   :paranoia:

I was expecting to find a bit of scraping here and there, finding it under the tailstock was a surprise and then I found that they had even scraped under the bed stop  :headscratch:

Jason you will be please to know I have got to the bottom of the paint being worn in strange places: I have known about my new friend for five weeks before I admitted to him  :embarassed: what I didn't know was why I was not allowed to see him earlier being that I had cash burning a hole in my pocket.  I found round his back in dark corners, up the electrical cables and all over the coolant pipe  a horrible silver grime. I don't know what it was but I would guess someone had to do a lot of cleaning to try to get rid of it before they felt they could let me come and see him. It looks like they must have used the same Fairy power spray but left it on certain part of the paint work too long  :hellno: But it doesn't effect his over all physical condition  :whoohoo:

Jo

P.S. The moths still have not recovered from the shock of last Friday  :-\
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on May 01, 2015, 06:33:24 PM
That could explain why it had "worn" where I would not have expected it.

Maybe the need to get rid of C1 will help revive the moths a bit.

Any luck with the motor / converter yet?

Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 01, 2015, 07:06:11 PM
I have been promised that C1 will shortly have a loving new home  :)

Any luck with the motor / converter yet?

 :noidea: Ok here I have been having discussions with my supplier  :shrug:  :hammerbash:  :shrug: a mutual friend has donated a 3ph distribution box that is so huge could house an entire city of workshop gnomes in it  :o   :toilet_claw:


My supplier's argument is that rather than having my current star point  :-X out from the Static converter I should put in the massive distribution box after the pilot motor and put lots of trips in there before sending off separate wires to each machine tool. At this point I get confused  :headscratch: He tells me that the trips "trip"with an in balance between phases, well that is how a static converter starts up  :headscratch:

He also thinks I should sell my 3 static converters and up scale to a rotary converter  :paranoia:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on May 01, 2015, 07:19:04 PM
Jo
I think what he is saying is that you use the output from the RC to feed the dis board , and then use the separate TP MCB,s to feed each machine that require TP. Doing it that way you can size the trips to discriminate any fault so as not to take down the entire system

I I mentioned before stuf the RC in a remote part of your WS , think of this as your personal power station to feed the aformentioned dis board

Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 01, 2015, 07:26:35 PM
Hi Stuart  ;) thanks, you should be able to sort this for me. I know a little about electrics and as we know with electrics a little knowledge is enough to kill you  :o

I only intend on running one machine at a time and each of them have their own contactors on their inputs.. Other than killing more of my now endangered pet moths  :( for each of the contactors suggested for each of the machines I cannot see what I gaining  :shrug:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on May 01, 2015, 08:26:59 PM
Jo

It would only gain you convenience , I gather at this time you have a dedicated SC for each of your machines and the new one would need a RC .

As you only have one pair of hands and are not in a production environment with more than one machine running at once  you may as well keep the system you have now , and use the new RC with the Hardinge

 Sparks like to complicate things  but no offence K.I.S.S may be the better way because it works for you and you understand it , as well one converter down will not take out your entire system .

Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: BillTodd on May 01, 2015, 11:49:49 PM
Sorry if I've missed a previous argument but...

DO NOT Run an hlv-h motor from a static converter please!

The motor dual speed 2 and 6 pole  (you wont find one of them down the local screwfix ) and is balanced to 0.0003" p-p It would be very expensive to replace when the static converter has fried it. (As they inevitability seem to do) .

Either, run it from a good rotary converter or, better in my opinion, rewire it to use a vfd (and benefit from extra variablespeed slow motion - something the hlv lacks) .

Bill - trust me i fix these for living.
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 02, 2015, 05:47:26 AM
Hi Bill,

I am not intending on running my friend directly from the Static converter :hellno: I spoke to transwave about this and their advice was to add a pilot motor into the circuit to make it into a rotary converter and that either my 3HP Colchester motor or the Harrison motors could be used as the pilot .   

As you know it is on the start up when the starting contactor fails that a static converter fries a winding of a motor. With a Pilot motor in circuit it is the pilot motor that takes the hit :zap: rather than the expensive one in the tool.  For this reason I was looking at buying a new 3HP motor to put between the static converter and all of the machines.

I have not found a motor yet but I can pick up a 2.2KW Italian one brand new for £150 :noidea: but I am still hopeful for a better quality (cheap/free) second hand one.


And Bill any suggestions for a reasonably priced set of wipers I am just about to make my own after the quote I got for a new set  ::).

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: GailinNM on May 02, 2015, 06:22:36 AM
Jo,
You might try contacting:
http://www.cyclematic.com/
in Taiwan for parts that will make your new friend happy.

They make the Hardinge clones that are sold worldwide under various rebranded names. I bought a new CTL618e rebranded for a USA distributor about 10 years ago. Although the electrics and electronics are different because of the model all of the mechanics are extremely close copies of the Hardinge HLV.  I can find no differences. If Hardinge used a 10-32 screw tthen the Cyclematic also uses a 10-32.

http://www.lathes.co.uk/cyclematic/ as a review on a different model to give you an idea.

I have never ordered any parts for my machine so I don't know anything about doing so. But it might be worth a try for your wipers.
Gail in NM
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 02, 2015, 07:01:37 AM
Thanks Gail I have sent them an Email.

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 02, 2015, 08:59:59 AM
When I brought him I was told the coolant pump didn't work. The pump was lifted to find this  :o. I might have a new pump somewhere not that I was planning on using flood coolant

You really have to love someone to want to go playing around cleaning up the lower half of his plumbing... I am going to let the workshop air for a while now ::)

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on May 02, 2015, 10:05:47 AM
Dirty little Bu**er

I would have thought flood coolant would be very handy for when you come to start cutting all those Anzani cylinder fins and such like so would be worth getting him going.
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on May 02, 2015, 12:08:02 PM
Jo

That's nasty  :toilet_claw:


Why do people let very expensive machine tools to get into that state , almost a bio hazard

I bet you gagged a bit at the fumes from that a BA kit would be the order of the , better open all the windows and get the frebreze out


Hope you had your marigolds on  :lolb:


Messy hounds these lads are

Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: BillTodd on May 02, 2015, 01:10:18 PM
If you are going to use flood coolant please use oil. Water based coolant realy destroys them . There are a couple of hlvs that have to be run on water at work, the carriage gearboxes fill up, water gets under the slides and it corrodes everything (even the pump - as you've just found!)

Oil, just strips the paint off :-D 

Bill
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Niels Abildgaard on May 02, 2015, 01:45:02 PM
Cut with carbide and Stellite and do not cool?
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Allen Smithee on May 02, 2015, 02:09:04 PM
You really have to love someone to want to go playing around cleaning up the lower half of his plumbing... I am going to let the workshop air for a while now ::)

I't's relative - I've seen worse in bachelor fridges...

AS
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 02, 2015, 02:29:03 PM
The tank was full of that solid gunge all the way down  :-[

Then there is the pump it was solid :facepalm: the outer shaft was full of similar stuff which had started to corrode it  :facepalm2: I needed to use a copper mallet to force the motor shaft out. The motor actually rotates freely. I can only guess in an industrial environment having a machine without a working coolant pump would have meant that it did not get used  ;D

The tray as expected had swarf in it and had to be mopped out of more horrible stuff. Then having removed the drain plug nothing came out  :ShakeHead: I started by poking a screw driver up the outlet that broke through the outer crust. In the end I had to resort to a sink plunger. Its all squeaky clean now  :)

He also came with only one chuck key so I am making some more for him :)

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 02, 2015, 02:37:57 PM
If you are going to use flood coolant please use oil. Water based coolant realy destroys them .

Bill, is EXCELCUT 427 any good? I can get 20ltrs for a reasonable price on fleabay.

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 02, 2015, 03:55:31 PM
 :thinking: There is plenty of space down the back for a scale but I will have to think about how the taper turning attachment fits. I am tempted to buy a scale that allows for turning without the tailstock in place that would mean a 600mm scale  :thinking:

I already know the cross slide scale interferes with the travelling steady mount  :thinking:

And I haven't decided what to do with the top slide. I can't see any point in not buying a 3 channel DRO but it only has 80 mm of movement.  :thinking: I suppose I might as well buy Sexy's DRO that I have been promising him while I am at it I am sure I will get a better deal from Colin if I buy two 3 channels at the same time :naughty:

Any way enough for today I feel the need  :drinking-41:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on May 02, 2015, 04:31:00 PM
Jo

Good grief have they moths been on Viagra  :mischief:

Things are getting spendy PDQ

But both the lathe and mill will love you for the gifts

But I don't envy you with the installs , IMHO scales always look out of place on such a curvy machine

BTW your diagram for the electrical system is what I envisioned

Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Alan Haisley on May 02, 2015, 04:36:14 PM
Jo,

I have been thinking about your wiper price for a while. I think that you may have run into that other class of people: the "restorers". Just like with automobiles, there are people who think that a classic tool is a collectable piece of art rather than something with which to do work.
They would take your new friend and clean and rework him to look just like he did out of the factory - no Taiwanese replacement parts for them, no siree! And when they were done they would put him in a glass cage and have him pine away never to make a quality part; and then brag about what they had done.

Alan
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 02, 2015, 04:58:42 PM
Thanks Stuart. The HUGE distribution box has an isolation switch in it, the suggestion was to put additional breakers for each machine in case one phase took more current than the others :headscratch:

And when they were done they would put him in a glass cage and have him pine away never to make a quality part

:hellno:

What is the point of owning a Hardinge if you can't have the pleasure of the using him  :embarassed:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on May 02, 2015, 05:06:10 PM
Jo

My view entirely they are tools , they were made to use and get messy and oily ( mind you they should be cleaned and serviced as required ) the same goes for cars they were made drive not be a garage queen

I would sooner see a grubby used machine than a polished unused one

Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: BillTodd on May 02, 2015, 06:00:20 PM
Hi Jo,


Excelcut looks like the right sort of  stuff :-)

I mounted the long scale on the front, just below the apron

www.mycncuk.com/threads/566-Renovating-a-Hardinge-HLV-H?p=3203#post3203

Later, i found a modified Harrison taper attachment that works a treat (finding a hardinge one could take a while)

Don't worry about the travelling steady not fitting, they don't really work if you have a qctp ( tool is worng side of steady)

Is yours a metric or imperial machine?  Myford gears work fine but may not fit into the smaller change gear case. Do you have metric and imperial banjos? (I have a spare imperial one if you need it )

Bill
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 02, 2015, 06:14:08 PM
I mounted the long scale on the front, just below the apron

 8) I hadn't thought of that

A friend of my supplier has a taper turner on his Hardinge. My Supplier is planning to go over and measure up the original to see if he can make one for is earlier HLV and we might look to make some additional ones while we are at it  :naughty: 

Thanks for the heads up on the travelling steady I will design my own  ;)

He's imperial  :disappointed: Bill you didn't see the photo earlier in this thread my new friend is fully equipped, he has the larger gear change case, two sets of banjos and all of the available Hardinge gears in his set and they have never been fitted under that big cover as the original transit bolts are still in place  :)

Looks like I will be making my own wipers tomorrow.

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Roger B on May 03, 2015, 07:23:46 AM
That's a lot of cleaning out to do  :( I see a gardening trowel and, my favourite, the dust pan (excellent for cleaning up when the children were sick  ::)  ) in service  :ThumbsUp:  I hope it's not too long before you are back on the engines  :)
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 03, 2015, 07:48:16 AM
Thanks Roger,

I hope it's not too long before you are back on the engines  :)

So do I, so do I, I had forgotten how time consuming these fellas can be  :-\

I carried out an electrical test this morning  :whoohoo: The pump motor is ok, which means I will have to clean it up  :(

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 03, 2015, 10:25:25 AM
The pump is back together thankfully while it looks bad the corrosion is only cosmetic  :)

I also started thinking about the distribution board. So far I have come to the conclusion its HUGE  :o.

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on May 03, 2015, 10:52:29 AM
Jo

That looks a good un , bigger the better , it's really a titchy one to the stuff I used to work with

Earth bar on the left and neutral on the right by the look of it .


Sump / suds pump look like it may be a good un


BTW
Why do we call it suds because in the early days of carbon steel tools it used to be made from soap and water hence the name it frothed up and the stock at the iron works machine shop was a open top 45 gal drum and it was used to wash their hands in ( no me us sparks never got dirty hands very often )

Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 03, 2015, 11:11:06 AM
 :headscratch: I need some MCBs for that little box. I noted that there are some second hand 10A ones on fleabay for £15 each http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Crabtree-Polestar-632-10-10a-Type-2-Triple-Pole-MCB-Used-/291411860358?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item43d9801b86 .  As the Colchester is 2.2KW I would have preferred the 6A ones.

What do you reckon Stuart, go for the 10A ones?


And how are the wires supposed to get in and out of that box  :noidea:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on May 03, 2015, 11:24:52 AM
Jo

No you need the correct size

Type 2 are for your case eg they have a multiplying factor of 7 and a trip delay up to 8 seconds.

The ten amp one could take up to 70 amp to trip

Look here

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/3.6.4.htm

Look down for the mcb section they explain it better than me ( I am in a bad dyslexic phase )

Table 3.3 give the details

With the ten amp one all you will gain is being able to isolate the circuit in question I bet your converter would fall over before the ten amp ones trip
Stuart
I will do some maths and up date

If I am correct the hardinge has a TP 1.5 HP motor
Quick and dirty calc would say a 4 amp type 2 mcb would do it
Eg 1.5 HP would be approx 2200 watts with the Pf
So 2200 / 3 is 733 watts per phase
If you are 220 vac this give a smidgen ove 3amps
You are unlikely to get the machine you care about to full load
A 4 amp type 2 would be a safe option 10 amp MCB is vastly OTT for this application


Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 03, 2015, 11:40:36 AM
That was where I was coming from originally when I was questioning what I was going to gain by adding in the distribution box and the MCBs in the first place.

The converter will trip before the smallest 3ph MCB you can buy will trip  :noidea:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on May 03, 2015, 11:50:48 AM
Yes Jo
You are correct your power supply is to soft to trip the MCB

I was on a site watching a large Cincinnati mill 25 HP spindle  , he mentioned that he had a modified three phase set up because he did not have three phase but he did have a 300 amp ( USA style 220 centre taped to 110 supply) so he built a 30 HP rotary converter set up from a old open frame TP motor

8 inch face mill with a 3/8 depth of cut just about fully loaded it up

In one vid he had 1500 pounds on the mill table

Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on May 03, 2015, 01:32:57 PM

And how are the wires supposed to get in and out of that box  :noidea:


Holesaw or sheet metaql punch and a conduit connector to suit your chosen conduit.
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Allen Smithee on May 03, 2015, 02:56:54 PM
And how are the wires supposed to get in and out of that box  :noidea:

It's obviously intended for one of those 3-phase wireless dongles...

AS
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 03, 2015, 03:38:07 PM
My parents have just been up to meet my new friend  :embarassed:.

He has their approval, so much so that they are buying him his DRO 8)

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Alan Haisley on May 03, 2015, 04:08:12 PM

And how are the wires supposed to get in and out of that box  :noidea:


Holesaw or sheet metaql punch and a conduit connector to suit your chosen conduit.

That's interesting. USA boxes are made with a bunch of variable size knock out blanks top, bottom, and sometimes sides.
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 03, 2015, 04:35:27 PM
That's interesting. USA boxes are made with a bunch of variable size knock out blanks top, bottom, and sometimes sides.

That was what I was expecting but  :ShakeHead:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Allen Smithee on May 03, 2015, 04:41:26 PM
My parents have just been up to meet my new friend  :embarassed:.

He has their approval, so much so that they are buying him his DRO 8)


Would they be interested in adopting a son?

AS
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 03, 2015, 05:20:16 PM
Would they be interested in adopting a son?

They had a son-in-law once I think they were pleased to see the back of him  ::)

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 04, 2015, 09:40:41 AM
 :thinking: He tried on a taper turner this morning to see if he liked it or not. This is the first Hardinge accessory that I can honestly say I am not impressed with  :disappointed:

You set it like a sine bar but there are no points against which to use your slips. You then have to loosen the cross slide bolt in its slot to allow the taper turner to do its stuff. Which means you have to turn the top slide round to be able to advance the tool into the work  :ShakeHead: I have decided the Colchester's taper turner is much nicer, with its vernier adjustment/replacement screw so you can continue to use the cross slide with it fitted. He won't be getting one of these, irrespective of the price   :hellno:

He also tried the travelling steady :facepalm2: it is made of aluminium. When you use it you have to turn the tool post round so that the tools are operating over the centre of the top slide :???:  I am six and two threes on this one. Again I think I could make something much more suitable to what I need. To be able to use this steady I would have to fit the Newall DRO kit which is about £750 for the three channel version.

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: BillTodd on May 04, 2015, 10:26:44 AM
The Newall microsyn dros are great (fitted one to an hlv-h a couple of months ago) . The scales are small carbon-fibre tubes that look more fragile than they are. The fittings are neat and very flexible , making the job easy.

Why do you want three channels? None of the lathes at work have a metered top-slide, it simply isn't necessary. On the rare occasions I need to measure the top-slide (the hardinge dials are very accurate BTW) , I clamp on a dti


The taper attachment works fine with a dro (some Newell's have a taper function that will display the taper angle etc as you move the carriage) .  I use my sony dro in place of a sine plate, i zero the cross-slide ,wind the carriage 5" then read off the offset. It takes a few minutes, but once set, the tapers (e.g. morse)  work first go. I paid £70 for my modded Harrison one , it was paid for by one job:-)

Bill
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 04, 2015, 12:07:46 PM
I know the Newall are nice but they are over twice the price of a Sinpo setup if you buy them from MSC (or nearly four times the price if you get Newall to quote directly  :ShakeHead:)

I have a three channel DRO on my Colchester and it is very handy for putting on a very small addition rather than using the larger saddle hand wheel. As yet I have not turned my friend on so don't know how fine I can get with the saddle wheel.

Good point  the Colchester's DRO has that function I should use it  :facepalm2: I still can't see why they did not fit an adjuster screw to the Hardinge taper turner rather than having a crude "tap it over" fine adjustment.

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: bp on May 04, 2015, 01:11:04 PM
Whilst talking about these beautiful machines, where I worked (when I had to work) there were two of them, this was probably 10 or 12 years ago.  One was fairly old and had been through several different owners and had been fairly well abused.  The second was in very good condition, with lots of accessories.  One was American the other was made in ..um .. Exeter??  in the UK anyway.  During one of our routine "out with the old, in with the new" management sweeps, it was suggested that it would be a good idea to get rid of them both and buy one new one.  So I went to the Hardinge website, and they were on "special offer" for something like US$38,000.  I got in touch with the local agent, he said that with "suitable" accessories the final cost including freight would be something like US$60,000, I got the impression that this was pretty much the end of manual Hardinges.
Anyway, when I reported back to the proposer of the plan, he really did go pale as he said "not a chance, make do with what you have". 
cheers
Bill
ps the "out with the old, in with the new" management sweeps often just ended up in shuffling a few benches around, and a new coat of paint.
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 04, 2015, 01:45:48 PM
My friend was made in Exeter  ;)

And the second hand price of them is getting has got more affordable  ;D

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on May 04, 2015, 04:00:06 PM
Jo

I may be wrong but machine-dro do a thin round scale for there dro and you can mix their fat medium and thin units

Now the disclaimer I have no affiliation with them and only bought a DTI from them

But it may be worth a look if you are tight for space on any axis

Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on May 04, 2015, 04:03:12 PM
Arn't the magnetic scales even smaller, don't know if your usually supplier does them though.
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: BillTodd on May 04, 2015, 04:22:27 PM
Quote
Stoll can't see why they did not fit an adjuster screw to the Hardinge taper turner rather than having a crude "tap it over" fine adjustment.
'Cos the fine adjustment doesn't work¡!

my Harrison one  has a fine adjust screw, but when it comes to the last few tenths , it just doesn't give you the control required, tapping does, so hardinge provide two tungsten anvils to allow you to tap:-)

Re:dro,
Make sure you get one with better than 5um resolution for the cross-slide  (e.g. the sony has 2um ) remember it removes material from both sides ;-)

The main advantage the magnetic ones have over glass is their resolution (if not accuracy)  and allows you to use the LSD digit to judge 'between' real steps like an analogue DTI. Dros that read 0-5 on the least significant digit , i find really annoying B-)

These may seem finicky details but once you discover how much better the hlv is that most other small lathes, you'll want to get the most out of it. B-)

Quote
As yet I have not turned my friend on so don't know how fine I can get with the saddle wheel.
1um is easy :-)

Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 04, 2015, 04:49:49 PM
'Cos the fine adjustment doesn't work¡!

 :Lol: As I have just found out when fiddled around setting it to do the taper for the back plates.


Still thinking about the DRO.... The Sinpo scales like the Newall Spherosyn scales, are 5um resolution and they are too coarse for the BCA  :thinking:

The Newall Spherosyn scales are only +/-10um its the Microsyn which are +/- 5um :toilet_claw: I can get +/- 1um glass scales from Sinpo  :noidea:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on May 04, 2015, 07:46:31 PM
They do two types of Microsyn, one goes down to 1 micron, the other 5 microns
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 04, 2015, 08:06:20 PM
I could only find these listed on the UK home page.

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on May 04, 2015, 08:18:37 PM
Bottom one Selectable 1um resolution which is what we are talking about.
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 04, 2015, 08:24:29 PM
The Sinpo glass scales have a resolution of 0.1um but that is only accurate to +/- 1um. The Newall 1.27um to an accuracy of +/- 5um.

Accuracy = repeatability.

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on May 04, 2015, 08:46:05 PM
Have you got a link to those sinpo ones jo I could not see anything on Colins adverts, does he have a website?

They all seem to sell 5um as the basic and "contact seller" for 1um but no mention of 0.1um resolutio?

J
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: BillTodd on May 04, 2015, 09:03:18 PM
The critical bit (for me) is that the display give you some indication (ie. resolution) below the desired accuracy .  I.E. if you are turning a diameter to 10um you need to see better than 10um , because a display showing  0.01mm could actually be anywhere between 0.006 and 0.015  . Resolving to 1um, even if absolute accuracy* is less, just makes it easier to use (I find).

*when you get down to a few um, the DRO is only a guide anyway , temperature, spring in tool and work piece, all add up against you
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 04, 2015, 09:04:56 PM
Jason, If you look in the manual that comes with the scales it gives all the details: drawings, calibrations, resolutions and accuracy.

The better resolution ones are £20 more than the standard, same price differential as M-DRO.

The Sinpo displays can be set to display to 0.1um.

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on May 04, 2015, 09:17:11 PM
But do the figures on the display move 0.1um at a time or 1um.

I have mine set to display to 1um but it reads 0.000, 0.005, 0.010, etc with a 5um scale

If I set it to 0.1um which it will do all I would get is 0.0000, 0.0050, 0.0100, etc
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: BillTodd on May 04, 2015, 09:24:19 PM
Yes Jason :-)

This is the difference between the glass scales with fixed TTL output* that toggle on/off in 5um steps (in quadrature) and magnetic scales which output continuous sign waves which the display measures (A-D) and resolves to the desired 'accuracy' (absolute accuracy for both types being really determined by the manufacturing process)


*It is perfectly possible to produce glass (opto) scales that output sine waves but most DRO scales  I have seen are TTL output.
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on May 04, 2015, 09:26:48 PM
Thanks Bil that what I thought a 0.1 resolution readout will only show as good as the scale eg 5um in 5um out, 1um in 1um out.
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Dave Otto on May 05, 2015, 01:22:14 AM
I have a Newall C80 on my Weiler lathe; Spherosyn scale on the Z and Microsyn on the X. The Microsyn is a 5um scale and I have it configured to read out in .00005" or .0001" in diameter. The Spherosyn is set up to read out in .0002" increments.

The price kind out hurt for a while but I have no complaints and have been very satisfied with the unit. The little tiny Microsyn scale was easy to fit on the cross slide and I like the fact that they will never get dirty and cause read problems like a glass scale can.

Jo I'm sure you have your mind made up but I just thought I would add my $.02

Dave
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 05, 2015, 07:21:00 AM
The Newall set up for the lathe is £730, vs £300 for the Sinpo. I am still thinking about it.

To avoid the crud getting in the glass scales it is best to mount them vertically rather than laying them on their sides. I have 5 machines equipped with glass scales and have had no problems with any of them.

Talking about crud: you should have seen the amount of swarf I had to vacuum out of the electrical isolator box on the back, there was so much I wouldn't have been surprised if it wasn't shorting across the wire fuses.  :ShakeHead:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 05, 2015, 07:33:10 AM
*It is perfectly possible to produce glass (opto) scales that output sine waves but most DRO scales  I have seen are TTL output.

A lot of the magnetic scales also have TTL outputs.

In my experience it is very difficult to wind a hand wheel that has a a feed rate of over 5mm per rotation that small increment which is 0.001mm, let alone 0.0001mm. It is much easier to offset the top slide and use its taper to provide smaller incremental movements.

Which reminds me: my micrometers also won't measure the smaller sizes and my workshop is anything but humidity/temperature controlled  :lolb:.

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on May 05, 2015, 07:41:11 AM
Jo as you have spent all this time cleaning up the flood coolant I assume you will be using it so think where that is going to end up, none of your glass scale equiped machines use flood coolant. Maybe the magnetics would be a good middle ground as they are smaller, can be mounted any which way, less affected by dirt and their biggest advantage to you is they are not much more than Sino/Sinpo stuff.

I think when you first got the lathe DROs that was my comment based on my machine the carrage wheel is hard to put on a small cut of say a thou so by using the combined carrage and topslide readings you can put fine cuts on with the topslide. I would hope the Hardinge has a better feel to the carrage wheel than my Warco with its 1.2" per rev feed
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 05, 2015, 08:25:42 AM
Jo as you have spent all this time cleaning up the flood coolant I assume you will be using it

It is not my intention to use it all the time, I will how ever have it there if I am doing a production run. Cleaning up the lathe was a case of starting with a clean friend and not having a biological hazard in the workshop  :hellno:


His saddle feed rate is 1/3 of that of your far eastern lathe and half that of the Prazimat. I do however make use of the bed stops to provide repeatable accuracy down the length of the lathe. I would like one for the Colchester as well.
-   -   -

An update on the new Workshop Gnome mansion: It is on the wall and so far I am assuming he hasn't found it :) It is a 6 way distribution box so I have managed to buy 6 MCBs for it. So that means I can have seperate feeds for Colchester, Harrison, Hardinge  :embarassed:, Union, BCA and a spare one for  :-X.


So now I have the joys of looking forward to wiring everything up next weekend   :-[ when I thought I was going to be making back plates  :ShakeHead: or fitting DROs  :disappointed:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Steam Haulage on May 05, 2015, 08:46:39 AM
Jason,

An advantage of flood coolant (metalworking fluids applied as a flood via a pump) I have found is that correct set-up will carry all the 'crud' away into the swarf collection system so no contamination of the scales should occur, only clean coolant should be delivered onto the workpiece and tool. Pressure at the nozzle, flow-rate, angle etc. all have their part to play.
If water miscible coolant is used it's essential to keep the concentration under control, measurement of RI is usually accurate enough. Too much concentrate = viscosity too high thus fine swarf not adequately drained carried through the system, too little concentrate =  insufficient lubrication at the cut.

Just my thoughts.
Jerry
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: BillTodd on May 05, 2015, 09:13:25 AM
Quote
In my experience it is very difficult to wind a hand wheel that has a a feed rate of over 5mm per rotation that small increment which is 0.001mm

The hardinge's rigidity helps. It means there's a better chance that the tool will move a similar increament not, as i have seen with many cheap lathes, that the thing has twisted or bent to accommodate the extra force.

You can still set the top slide to 30 (?) Degrees to get a fine feed ;-)  Save money on the extra channel and buy a better dro:-)

Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 05, 2015, 09:49:21 AM
You can still set the top slide to 30 (?) Degrees to get a fine feed ;-)  Save money on the extra channel and buy a better dro:-)

If you put the top slide at 5.5 degrees, then for every 0.1mm you move the top slide the tool moves in 0.001mm  8)

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on May 05, 2015, 10:25:58 AM
But does that then not alter the DRO "zero" setting of the tools tip ? so if you put on a 0.001mm depth of cut in one direction you have to move the carrage 0.1mm less in the other or reset zero each time
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on May 05, 2015, 10:28:20 AM
Jo at the risk of being a complete dumbo

Do we need to make parts down to 0.001mm ?

Yes I know it's nice to be able to do but apart from making fuel injector part is it actually required ?

As has been stated temperature ,tool design come into play at those levels


When I came out of my time I was put with a old electricians mate, he used to make slip gauges during WW2 they lapped them with diamond paste on a CI lap and used a optical flat to inspect the refraction patterns to prove flatness

Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 05, 2015, 11:19:34 AM
You are right Stuart, no we do not normally work/measure to that accuracy for our model engines  ;).

Its like having a Newall DRO on the machine: The Newall is perceived as being one of the better DROs around and if you are buying a machine second hand then it is a nice addition. But I brought a machine without a DRO as the condition of the machine meant more than the gadgets it might have come fitted with.

The £430 saving if I buy the Sinpo set up will pay for a lot of other additions for him  8) And he is still well under his budget  :whoohoo:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 05, 2015, 11:25:20 AM
But does that then not alter the DRO "zero" setting of the tools tip ? so if you put on a 0.001mm depth of cut in one direction you have to move the carrage 0.1mm less in the other or reset zero each time

Normally I machine one face, then do the second, so the correction can be taken into account.

But as it stands I cannot measure below 0.01mm with my measuring equipment, so the offset top slide trick is used to provide for an accurate fit on a shaft rather than an accurately measured dimension  ;).

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on May 05, 2015, 11:52:49 AM
Jo

I am used to the Newal DP700 as I have one on the mill with 5um Microsyn scales on XYZ

I am thinking about a lathe install but I am stuck with room what with the taper attachment the rod for the G Meek dog clutch I have no room I did look into the wire type as fitted by Mr Haythonrite .sp but it looks to crude and the head unit looks well shed made for the price it's on the back burner.

As you state I to cannot measure below 0.01 mm Evan with the Starrat stuff

Sorry for the question its me out with the wooden spoon  :stir:

We all try to achieve perfection in our work but I have learnt you have to know when you need to and when not

Looking forwards to see him getting down and dirty

Stuart

Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on May 05, 2015, 12:01:29 PM
I was thinking more if you were working to a shoulder, something like that bearing I did yesterday, if I used the angled topslide method to take say 0.002mm cut of the dia to fine tune the press fit which you can't really test, I would have run into the shoulder if I was going by the DRO or bed stop. Even if doing one face at a time you would have to remember to wind back the topslide to get the tool at zero/zero again or measure and reset.

What not got a mic that does tenths = 0.0025mm or even a digital that goes finer ? Don't really use my digital one much prefer the "feel" of the traditional one.

Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 05, 2015, 06:21:24 PM
:lolb: They fibbed  :censored: the £730 is only the Newall display box  :lolb:

Its a no brainer which DRO I am buying ;)

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on May 05, 2015, 06:42:50 PM
:lolb: They fibbed  :censored: the £730 is only the Newall display box  :lolb:

Its a no brainer which DRO I am buying ;)

Jo

But you DO get the brackets included with that :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Dave Otto on May 05, 2015, 06:45:29 PM
Yep sounded like a pretty good deal to me! I paid around $1900.00 USD for mine.

Dave
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 05, 2015, 06:59:19 PM
So a bit of work on the new Workshop Gnome accommodation  :paranoia:

There was no holes in the box, UK electrical regs require that the holes are in the top and the bottom of the distribution box not the sides. I am not one to have them in the top as, like with my friend's isolator switch, I know swarf likes to go down into things (sometimes up if the gnome is involved  >:() There are 6 circuits/MCB's so that needs 7 holes, all 20mm to fit the glands.

I am cutting these holes with a Q-max cutter, I am sure you all know the tricks but if you don't:

Always put the bit that is going to be pulled through on the outside. This forces the burrs to be on the inside, which you will of course remove  ;) and leaves the rubber seal with a nice smooth outside surface to seal against any wandering swarf/liquids.

Then there is that washer that gets stuck in the top, how many of us have poked around with a screw driver to get it out or even worse left a couple in there to get really stuck  >:D The alternative way to get them out is to leave the bolt in the washer and turn it over, over a gap and give the bolt a slight tap and out they will come  ;)

All 6 MCBs are on their way  ;D

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on May 05, 2015, 07:11:41 PM
Hey, if you ain't gonna spend it on sex,  drugs, rock-n-roll, and exotic holidays in island retreats,  what's a few extra hundred squid or so.  :stir: :mischief:. One shouldn't sacrifice when it comes to this quality of a machine.  One wouldn't shop the lowest price replacements  when looking for correct Ferrari parts,  just saying.

Big E
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on May 05, 2015, 07:48:52 PM
Jo, are you not running the cables in conduit, looks like you just have glands. I may be wrong but thought that in a garage/workshop that below 2m in height they should be protected. I would have thought trunking around the workshop at high level then 20-25mm conduit drops down to whatever you are using to connect the individual machines.
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 05, 2015, 08:10:47 PM
Jo, are you not running the cables in conduit, looks like you just have glands. I may be wrong but thought that in a garage/workshop that below 2m in height they should be protected. I would have thought trunking around the workshop at high level then 20-25mm conduit drops down to whatever you are using to connect the individual machines.

Jason: This is a home workshop not an industrial unit that has employees for which the owners have a duty of care under the HSE, where everything has to be installed to be idiot proof.

The cabling to the distribution box is the original machine cabling that went to the 4 pin plugs I am not lengthening any of them think of the distribution box as the trunking. The cabling to my new friend is a piece of steel screened cable. All cabling is run behind the machines and unless you get a  :censored: great steel pry bar out to pry out the machines to be able to access the cables you are not going to get near them.

I am sure if you lifted the 3ph socket and stuck two bits of steel bar in the holes in the transwave outlet socket cover you could get at the 415volts if you really felt the need to prove it is not idiot proof :zap:. But you won't do it twice  :ShakeHead:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 05, 2015, 08:12:51 PM
what's a few extra hundred squid or so.  :stir: :mischief:.

Actually it is just over an extra £1.1K for the basic unit and scales then there is the Hardinge fitting kit on top :lolb:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on May 05, 2015, 08:24:53 PM
Did not think it had to be industrial, look at any new build and the garage will have the drops in conduit, mine has.  The sparks that did my shed ran all cables in trunking. Also the couple of garages I have built for clients the sparks I used ran the T&E clipped to the roof timbers but the drops were in conduit and metclad boxes.

But I get what you are saying that the big box is really the "socket" where each machine connects, just don't really like a lot of cables on the surface running half way around the shop
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Allen Smithee on May 05, 2015, 09:11:57 PM
Any time you succeed in making something idiot-proof someone invents a better idiot...

AS
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 05, 2015, 09:13:26 PM
Jason, contractors carrying out electrical installations are required by law that the installation comply with BS 7611, IET Wiring Regulations 17th edition Amendment 3. Prior to the end of June 2015 they can comply with Amendment 2.

Don't forget that without suitable qualifications in the UK you are not allowed to put a 13A plug on the end of a 240V mains lead  ;).


The outlet on the suds pump was broken so the piece of plastic was tapped 1/2" Whit and a suitable adapter made. The original pipe having had its ends sat in some boiling water for a few mins became flexible enough to go back in place  :)

I then rewired the 415V 3ph cable to the motor and he has his pump again  :whoohoo:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: spuddevans on May 05, 2015, 10:00:08 PM
Don't forget that without suitable qualifications in the UK you are not allowed to put a 13A plug on the end of a 240V mains lead  ;).

Thankfully Part P regs only apply to England and Wales, Bonny Scotland and good old N.Ireland can still fry themselves as they/we please  :zap:


Tim

EDIT:

Good Progress there Jo, I have to admit I'd love to have a larger lathe, but then I'd need a larger mill to match, and then I'd need a larger workshop Etc etc etc
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 06, 2015, 07:33:54 AM
Thanks Tim  :)

I have to admit I'd love to have a larger lathe, but then I'd need a larger mill to match, and then I'd need a larger workshop Etc etc etc

If you have larger machine tools there is a habit to make larger models and that is when it gets expensive as you then need a larger house to store them all in (which of course will have been purchased with the larger workshop  ;D )

I still feel one of the failings of the education system was that they never taught us how to wire a three pin plug  :disappointed: As an apprentice it was one of the first things they taught us, simple things like making the earth wire that little bit longer so that it is last connected if someone manages to pull the cable out, fitting the right sized fuse, striping the right amount of insulation off each wire and getting it all of the strands in the hole and clamped by the screw. So many second hand tools I have acquired have had dangerously wired  mains plugs  :zap: So it is always the first thing I check  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on May 06, 2015, 08:05:42 AM
Was it a failing of the system or just the school you went to? Seem to remember some basic things like wiring a plug in a science lesson. And certainly did that and a bit more for CSE Electronics. Same school taught the girls woodwork, technical drawing and metalwork and the guys cooking and needlework.

J
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: spuddevans on May 06, 2015, 08:30:50 AM
I still feel one of the failings of the education system was that they never taught us how to wire a three pin plug

Isn't it "Green to Brown, Brown to Blue, Blue to bits!!"  :zap:
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Steamer5 on May 06, 2015, 10:16:21 AM
Any time you succeed in making something idiot-proof someone invents a better idiot...

AS

Hi Allen,

The other quote I like.....

"When designing something to be fool proof, don't underestimate the ingenuity of fools"

Something that HSE depts seem to forget........

Jo,
 Loving the trials & tribulations of your new "bloke"

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 06, 2015, 12:25:21 PM
Loving the trials & tribulations of your new "bloke"

Thanks Kerrin,

It is easy to underestimate how much cost and work is involved in adopting a new friend, I fear that we are still some weeks away from him making any swarf :-\

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: sco on May 06, 2015, 12:43:49 PM
Thanks Kerrin,

It is easy to underestimate how much cost and work is involved in adopting a new friend, I fear that we are still some weeks away from him making any swarf :-\

Jo

Ain't that the truth!  ;D

Simon.
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Roger B on May 06, 2015, 01:37:39 PM
Thanks Tim  :)

I have to admit I'd love to have a larger lathe, but then I'd need a larger mill to match, and then I'd need a larger workshop Etc etc etc

If you have larger machine tools there is a habit to make larger models and that is when it gets expensive as you then need a larger house to store them all in (which of course will have been purchased with the larger workshop  ;D )

Jo

Absolutely  :)  When the Prazimat was under threat I went down to the cellar and looked, but no hope  :(
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Ian S C on May 06, 2015, 02:06:52 PM
On a trip to Britain in 1977 to visit friends, first thing on arriving, could you wire this plug for me, I,d never seen a plug with a fuse in it coming from NZ, no problem just another plug, I think my friend would have taken it to an Electrician, or maybe it was just a test.
Ian S C
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: BillTodd on May 06, 2015, 10:28:00 PM
Actually those Standards and Qualifications requirements are only for those selling their services, UK home owners can pretty much bugger up things to their hearts content (even gas*) and only be brought to book when things go wrong.


*the energy suppliers can refuse connection to non-safe or uncertified  installations but they are rarely checked
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Alan Haisley on May 06, 2015, 10:36:28 PM
It may also come into play when there is a house fire. I'm pretty sure that in the USA if the insurance carrier can show that it might have been caused by non-code wiring they will argue that they don't have to pay. It may depend upon how long the non-code condition existed just what the financial result will be.

There are also differences, at least in North Carolina, between what a licensed electrician is required to do and what the building must have in the way of wiring and circuit breakers.
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 07, 2015, 05:15:20 PM
 :) I found a couple of the missing gadgets for that little dividing head, this is the gear chain that can be used between the dividing plate and the spindle on the head or when driven by the end of the mills X axis power feed, used to cut spirals 8) But I still haven't been able to lift it off the workmate  :disappointed:


The Workshop Gnome Mansion is rapidly filling up (hopefully there will not be any space for him or at least I will know where to find him :naughty: ) Six MCBs isolation switches turned up today so the distribution box is fully populated  :whoohoo: The cable for my new friend is first in. I am not sure if I want to break the circuits for the other machines just yet as they are all working and it is the end of the day and you must never play with electric when you are tired  :hellno:

I mentioned that my friend's new cable has a steel sheave, it was not as bad as armouring to cut but nearly  :( Stripping the outside rubber off of cables: How many of you do this by using a Stanley knife along the length of the cable and risk the knife going into your hand  :slap: If you see one of these little gadgets that is exactly what they are for: cutting off that outer cover  ;)

Last but not least I have been given a few loose cables to rewire the BCA into the new distribution box, which I am sure Jason will appreciate will be carrying 415V  :zap:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on May 07, 2015, 05:25:49 PM
I'm no expert on 3phase but don't you want a grey wire or are you doing 3 brown and a blue. Could be wrong as I get a sparks in to do things since they brought in part P and rarely see much 3phase on domestic stuff.

And using singles you will want to be running them in something like conduit won't you?
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on May 07, 2015, 05:31:51 PM
Jo

The thing in the regs is competent person and I am sure you are one of those


Cable stripping all I can say it's practice with a sharp knife , is the cable that spiral steel cover , it's horible stuff , nuf said

With rubber cable I bend it over and carefully ring it round in easy stages and you find the last bit will part on its own the pull it off , a light score can help.

With t and e I just grab the earth and pull it back with pliers then trim up the sheath

It's looking rather smart on the Sparks front

Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 07, 2015, 05:34:46 PM
I'm no expert on 3phase but don't you want a grey wire or are you doing 3 brown and a blue.

:headscratch: There are five different colours there Jason, no grey ones and all are 7m long.

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 07, 2015, 05:46:42 PM
With rubber cable I bend it over and carefully ring it round in easy stages and you find the last bit will part on its own the pull it off , a light score can help.

With t and e I just grab the earth and pull it back with pliers then trim up the sheath

That little gadget has a rotating blade so having set the depth you go down the cable as far as you need to then just rotate it round the cable to score the ring for parting. And as you say on a cable with a bare earth wire you would then pull that down the length of the score to separate :)


Thanks Stuart. We will be back on the swarf tomorrow  :whoohoo:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on May 07, 2015, 05:52:29 PM
I'm no expert on 3phase but don't you want a grey wire or are you doing 3 brown and a blue.

:headscratch: There are five different colours there Jason, no grey ones and all are 7m long.

Jo

So as I said I may be wrong, can you enlighten us as I thought there were two options for 3 phase

Brown, Black & Grey for the phases, blue neutral and G/Y earth or 3 browns for the phases, blue Neutral and G/Y earth
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on May 07, 2015, 06:16:34 PM
Jo

You have to remember when I trained there were no gadgets you had a knife , and you learn how to use it, the only insulation tool we had was for the HV oil inpregnated paper insulated cable to give a dialectic gradient

I will let you work it out I am 67 and left school at 15 straight into a 5 year apprentiship so not gadgets only your skill

Jason
As to three phase colours there have been many

Red White  blue  black neutral green earth
Red Yellow Blue  Black
Then we started to change to the colours you mention
I then came across the USA scheme on the IBM stuff.   Brown, Black 1 , Black 2 with Blue for the neutral

This may give a clue
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_wiring_in_the_United_Kingdom#Conductor_colours

But never forget in the panel they can all be the same colour as long as they are labeled at each end

The worst case for colour marking was in a German Croning machine in the panel they used red as the earth

Over the years I seemed to me that the system was changed every few years,

TRS cable was red black and green , one of the electricians I worked with used to throw down a cut of bit and ask if it was green as its dark up here , later I found he was colour blind on red and green , as is my daughter , but have no fear I am ok in that department

Stuart

Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 07, 2015, 06:38:40 PM
My current preference is to use the black, brown, red and earth wires & also number them :).

The use of blue  :ShakeHead: it implies "neutral" and this is not a circuit with a neutral.

Red normally says "warning" anything with potential on it should have a warning ;)

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on May 07, 2015, 06:47:47 PM
I was only going by this bit in your link Stuart.

"From April 2006, only the new colours should be used for any new wiring."

As it shows in the attached PDF the 3 browns are OK if labled, could also question if its really right to be using a box that is marked in the old colours

So you did not have one of those little tools for cutting the outer layer of pyro
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on May 07, 2015, 06:50:18 PM
Jo

That's the way label them no confusion then

OT Regarding colours I have never understood the colours used in push buttons green for on red for off

So  green for 'go' ok but red for off surly red means danger  when in fact you are making it safe .


Colours in electrical work are a guide but always should be verified by testing


Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 07, 2015, 06:58:38 PM
 :o Quick, quick Jason throw away all your old machines just in case they have illegal wiring in them they must be dangerous. Are you qualified to lift the cover and check they are safe. I am assuming all their PAT tests are up to date :naughty:

::) Oh dear my new friend has all red wires in his original wiring and they were not numbered. Hardinge  :slap: whatever were they doing, it must reflect the poor quality of their products.


Jason are your tools CE marked (= Chinese Export zone)  :mischief:

Jo


Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on May 07, 2015, 06:59:31 PM
Jason you mean a ringing tool yes we did . But we used a steel bar with a saw cut to peal the outer back , like a sardine tin , a pair of pliers instead of a potting tool

Stuart


Jo

The CE means Chinese Export,   And put on the marigolds on before you open the panels  :stir:
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on May 07, 2015, 07:04:04 PM
:o Quick, quick Jason throw away all your old machines just in case they have illegal wiring in them they must be dangerous. Are you qualified to lift the cover and check they are safe. I am assuming all their PAT tests are up to date :naughty:

::) Oh dear my new friend has all red wires in his original wiring and they were not numbered. Hardinge  :slap: whatever were they doing, it must reflect the poor quality of their products.


Jason are your quality far Eastern tools CE marked (= Chinese Economic zone)  :mischief:

Jo

Jo read what I quoted "NEW WIRING" and as I don't have any old machines mine have the right colours in them :Lol:
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 07, 2015, 07:13:50 PM
So I won't find a single machine with red and black wiring on a 240V piece of equipment? 

And all of your machines, used in anyway in conjunction with your employment, have the required up to date PAT testing certificates for each  :naughty:.

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on May 07, 2015, 07:21:28 PM
I think I will back out of this colour  issue its getting bit to hot for me, but I stand by my statement all conductors should be verified by test , and all test equipment should be proved before and after use

The main contention stems from new stuff ( although I do not trust the Far East electrical regs) verses existing equipment which when manufactured WAS within the scope of the regs at that time
As a parting shot please all take a good look at the earthing it will not make the machine go but it could keep you alive

So I will take my leave and look forward to the swarf making  side of things


Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 07, 2015, 07:30:53 PM
The main contention stems from new stuff ( although I do not trust the Far East electrical regs) verses existing equipment which when manufactured WAS within the scope of the regs at that time

That is important to note: BS 7671 is not applicable to this specific installation.

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 08, 2015, 07:12:58 AM
:headscratch: The nose taper needs to be 4 degrees minus 30 minutes .

The taper turner is giving me a bit of movement due to it having a sliding surface :ShakeHead: so before I start making swarf I thought I better look at the tolerances on the Hardinge nose taper. Both the larger and smaller diameters have a tolerance on them, there is no tolerance on the taper angle :(.

The worst case tolerance for the taper will be when one is the larger measurement and the other the smaller measurement. So using my CAD package to draw it out (I could have also done the maths  :disappointed:) the tolerance on the taper goes between 94.01229 degrees and 93.9829 degrees. This is greater than the movement of the bearing surfaces on the taper turner  :whoohoo:

As for the accurate dimensions they will be sorted out by how far the plates fit onto the nose taper  ;).

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on May 08, 2015, 07:23:15 AM
Jo

Where do the 93.xxxx and 94.xxx degrees relate to I see 3"59'30

Or have the lamps and brain cell failed


Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 08, 2015, 07:34:14 AM
Sorry it was the internal angles I scribbled down so subtract 90 degrees from both of those  :slap:

My DRO works in decimals so I needed to convert it into decimals to see how bad the error is.

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Roger B on May 08, 2015, 07:36:24 AM
The main contention stems from new stuff ( although I do not trust the Far East electrical regs) verses existing equipment which when manufactured WAS within the scope of the regs at that time

That is important to note: BS 7671 is not applicable to this specific installation.

Jo

Just to add my zwei Rappen. In this installation it could be argued that after the Transwave EN 60204-1 Safety of machinery - Electrical equipment of machines applies. In this case only green/yellow and light blue are defined as protective earth and neutral. There are guidelines for colours for other circuits but these are only recommendations.
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on May 08, 2015, 07:43:40 AM
Would the constant force against the tool keep one side of the taper attachment in contact so you may not get that movement that is evident when you wiggle things about. Or just turn it on the Colchester which you have already said has a better taper attachment.

Either way I would test the setup on some scrap and see what its like with some blue on it then do all your backplates in one go when it is set right.

Are you leaving it as a turned finish or going to finish with a toolpost grinder?
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 08, 2015, 07:59:10 AM
This is the movement when I wind the bed too and fro and the taper turner moves the cross slide on the Colchester.

I was going to start with a dummy taper using something that hopefully I will be able to reuse later  ;)

My remaining toolpost grinder is too big for getting inside this taper and I do not like using grinders on lathes  :ShakeHead:. It will be left a turned finish using the 0.05mm sliding surface feed.

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on May 08, 2015, 08:12:52 AM
Ah it is on the Colchester, but same applies my thought is that the cut is only going "to" not "to and fro" so all the slack will be taken up during the cut and if you back the tool out before returning the carrage for the next cut it won't take an unwanted cut on the way back.

Just looking at the nose detail again, wonder it the chuck taper is exactly the same or that odd 30" is only on the nose and the crossed out 4deg on the chuck.

One last question if I may. If you want to go from forward running to reverse does teh chuck need to be rotated so it locks into the other side of that "T" or is there some sort of lock to stop it comming loose ?
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on May 08, 2015, 08:43:09 AM
It is my info on the hardinge that you set the chuck/ WHY  to the direction you intend to use


Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 08, 2015, 08:43:58 AM
If you want to go from forward running to reverse does teh chuck need to be rotated so it locks into the other side of that "T" or is there some sort of lock to stop it comming loose ?

The chuck is held on by the taper it is locked on using a grubscrew on each of the attachments in that slot. If you were only running in reverse you might want to start in the opposite slot.

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: BillTodd on May 08, 2015, 09:26:57 AM
Quote
:headscratch: The nose taper needs to be 4 degrees minus 30 minutes .
Consensus on the Practical Machinist forum is that the nose female taper needs to be just under 4 degrees to allow the taper to expand/spring slightly . The pin is primarily to eject the chuck .

Drill the pin hole to fit your nose , after cutting the taper, and drill a partial depth hole or two for a pin-spanner for chuck removal.

You shouldn't panic about cutting the taper ,  I've seen you work, you're a better machinist than me, so if I can do it, I know you can :-)

I've cut a few tapers: one using the top-slide set with a DTI on the nose - It worked OK, but needed scraping to get a nice firm fit. The three or four others (including a male tail-stock centre) used the taper attachment set with a DRO .

The critical bit is the depth , the temptation to just get the surface finish a bit better buggered my, now unfinished, faceplate project ('cos the nose projects a few thou" :doh:) .

Pictured, is a 6" four jaw with the taper in both the back plate and chuck (to get the chuck as close to the nose as i could)

BTW If it you need one, I'm quite happy to loan you one of my four jaw chucks.


P.S. One thing I keep meaning to do, is cut a recess at the bottom of my chuck tapers to allow room for a collet . It can be very useful to have a depth stop locked in a collet while using the chuck . BTW, don't run the lathe with the collet puller tube in place without a tightened collet , it'll damage the tube .


Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: BillTodd on May 08, 2015, 09:48:32 AM
Quote
Ah it is on the Colchester, but same applies my thought is that the cut is only going "to" not "to and fro" so all the slack will be taken up during the cut and if you back the tool out before returning the carrage for the next cut it won't take an unwanted cut on the way back.

One slight snag is that , when boring an internal taper, the pressure from the tool tends to push on the cross-slide while it is being pulled by the taper attachment. If your cut is too big, it'll push the cross-slide into the backlash . If the cross-slide is sloppy it may be necessary to drag on the cross-slide lock (or nip up one of the gib screws).

The Hardinge taper attachment has an adjustable gib on the slider which bolts tight to the cross-slide - it does not move much at all.
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 08, 2015, 10:42:47 AM
You shouldn't panic about cutting the taper ,  I've seen you work, you're a better machinist than me, so if I can do it, I know you can :-)

Thanks Bill  ;D

I have a bit of spare depth on that original hardinge faceplate to play with when I cut the taper  ;)

He is doing well on his chucks :embarassed: He already has original Hardinge four jaw independent, three jaw chuck and that driver plate. I have another 2 back plate castings arriving in about 2 hours, to go with the one I already have for the marathon machining session. The plan is these will fit:

1, The almost new Hardinge 3 jaw chuck which had been converted to fit the Prazimat  :hammerbash:, ok it is likely to have a little more over hang as the taper on these plates will be mainly outside the body :shrug: But I might have just found an alternative steel doughnut which I could make an internal taper with  :thinking:

2, The 4 jaw TOS SC chuck, ok so it is their cheapo blue range so the lowest quality  :-\

and a spare ;D

I also had a look at how to get him off that palate, I am not doing it on my own  :ShakeHead:

Time to make some wipers. I have saved these piece of steel from a fate worse than death: they were going to be part of a locomotive tender  :hellno:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: BillTodd on May 08, 2015, 11:12:31 AM
The Bed wipers on my early hardinge only clear the top of the bed. They are steel and forced down onto the bed with small springs. They seem to do the job fairly well and have lasted 40+ years. ALL the rubber ones I have see have hardened and been broken with bits missing.  I've not been tempted to make rubber ones :)

I'll watch your progress with interest  :wine1:


Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 08, 2015, 11:38:16 AM
The Bed wipers on my early hardinge only clear the top of the bed. They are steel and forced down onto the bed with small springs. They seem to do the job fairly well and have lasted 40+ years.

That is what Eric's HLV has, I was going to go for rubber clamped under steel plates.


 :thinking: I have had a reassessment of the backing plates and decided that  :ShakeHead: those castings are not suitable for my existing Hardinge chuck that is mounted on the Prazimat as it has part of the casting stick into the body of the chuck.

So I have dug out two of these doughnuts of steel that were flame cut for someone elses project  :mischief: and found they machine very nicely. Now I will have to decide if I want to keep all three cast backplates and machine them or sell one on to a buyer I have  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 08, 2015, 06:37:55 PM
I had forgotten: when I brought my Prazimat back plates were not available  :disappointed: I spent what seemed like weeks making back plates, it takes forever  :toilet_claw:


At least I can look forward to never again pining after another lathe because there was the possibility that it could be better. All bad machining in the future will be solely my fault  :slap:


That does not mean that budget lathes are not capable :hellno: It is just he has the feel that makes me want to do it with him :embarassed:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: BillTodd on May 08, 2015, 07:18:20 PM
Quote
At least I can look forward to never again pining after another lathe because there was the possibility that it could be better
.

Doesn't work like that ;-)  you have an idea for a project that requires a 2" bore and a couple of foot between centres ... Then you realise why you really must have a DSG ... And a bigger shed!
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 08, 2015, 07:42:41 PM
I already have a barely used Colchester Master  8) Ok so only 38mm through the nose, turns within 0.0002mm and can do 1220mm between centres with lots of power :naughty:

The bigger shed was going to be for someone else  :embarassed: But after so long I never found the need so I am busy spending a little of the money I had allocated to that opportunity on other things ;)

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: BillTodd on May 08, 2015, 08:42:15 PM
Ah but once you've turned the handles of a DSG  you'll realise that the colchester is to a DSG like a  seig is to a Hardinge.

B-)
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 09, 2015, 07:35:48 AM
There is also that little problem of getting something that large to my property  :ShakeHead:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Allen Smithee on May 09, 2015, 08:16:15 AM
Nothing a Chinook can't handle (and Odiham is a metaphorical stone's throw away)...

AS
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: stvy on May 09, 2015, 03:12:47 PM
Jo,

I am enjoying this thread. Thank you. I read with interest that you were considering to make a new traveling steady. What size Multifix post and holders are you using?

As you have found the HLV-H traveling steady (follower rest) doesn't sufficiently line up all the forces when using Multifix tool post & holders. It is designed for the original Hardinge tool holder. It is offset too much to be right on small diameter work. I have been thinking that one day I'll get a pattern made up and an iron casting made for a modified design better suited for Multifix toolpost and holders. This is a long way off and even further off in that I am considering to move to a E sized Multifix and abandon the A's. The only problem with that is they seem to be much rarer.

Steve
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 09, 2015, 05:46:29 PM
Hi Steve. I have A sized Multifixes for my friend, the same size as on my Prazimat (who will be donating them to his worth while cause) which means he has 22 holders already  ;D

I will be thinking about the travelling stead design carefully as I would hope to be able to turn my very small (under 1mm diameter) bolts on him. But not yet, I have plenty on my hands for now  :(

-       -         -       -

One of my concerns was how high he is, HLV-H's are notoriously tall and sitting on the pallet he has been rather too high  :-\ So today he had to be brought down to the ground.

One point to note: NEVER TRY MOVING A LATHE ON YOUR OWN  :hellno:

First the head stock end was raised, using the crane and two 25mm steel rollers put underneath. Then he was rolled to over hang the pallet by 150mm. The headstock end raised again and a block of 4 by 4 with a bit of 4 by 2 put under, then he was lowered on to the wood.

Then the Tailstock was highered and the palate slid out and a piece of 4 by 4 put under that end. Back to the headstock, raise, remove the bit of 2 by 2.... back to the tailstock, raise replace 4 by 4 with 2 by 4.... headstock: lower onto rollers ;) ...... tailstock take to the ground. At no point were we looking to move up or down more than 50mm  :)

So he is on the ground  :whoohoo: And he is really rather a nice height  :embarassed:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on May 09, 2015, 07:10:16 PM
Jo

" slowly slowly catchy monkey " well it should have been softly

Baby steps and two people that know what they are doing is the way


Well done


At the bank a air con unit had to be lifted twelve foot ( this was the size of a hopping container ) to stack two high with no head room like you the did it with a toe jacks and a lorry load of railway sleeper ( ties for the USA ) took all day but the job was done and no black finger nails  .

Getting near now to him getting dirty

Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: BillTodd on May 09, 2015, 07:45:30 PM
Quote
One of my concerns was how high he is, HLV-H's are notoriously tall and sitting on the pallet he has been rather too high  :-\ So today he had to be brought down to the ground.

Having short legs myself (they barely reach the ground), I found a think-ish rubber mat gives me the extra 3/4" or so I need.

 A  good duck board could be handy.


Quote
I will be thinking about the travelling stead design carefully as I would hope to be able to turn my very small (under 1mm diameter) bolts on him.

I found a fix steady useful for small threads .  Made this one:
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 09, 2015, 07:58:58 PM
I like that  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 09, 2015, 08:02:47 PM
Baby steps and two people that know what they are doing is the way

It has been fascinating watching the professionals (both Eric & Wayne) move him and my other machines. Like the simple use of a 25mm bit of steel bar as a roller under a machine makes things go so easily  ;D

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: GailinNM on May 10, 2015, 02:44:06 AM
I had the same height problem with my lathe as in the PC language of today I am vertically challenged.
I made a fold out platform for my Hardinge clone

(http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n404/NMSteam/HMEM/TooShort0001.jpg)
Details are at:
http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/showthread.php?t=11440
Gail in NM

Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Steamer5 on May 10, 2015, 07:16:10 AM
Hi Jo,
 Yep it's amazing what you can move around on a bit of bar. While building the deck around the north side of the house I had to move a spa pool, empty, its 2.2 meters square, took me, on my own, as the dog was only supservising a couple of hours to move it about 4 meters one way & 2 meters at right angles. The dog never worked up a sweat!
When SWMBO got home the comment...." is that all you've done all day!" didn't go down too well!

Moving the new toy round the garage to the workshop on my own was a piece of cake in comparison! Amazing how much easier it is when the ground is solid!

PS Gail, I like you platform, nice!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 10, 2015, 09:29:51 AM
This is a long way off and even further off in that I am considering to move to a E sized Multifix and abandon the A's. The only problem with that is they seem to be much rarer.

Hi Steve, I have been having a think about your comment about the Multifix sizes. I have size B on my Colchester and Size A's on both the Prazimat and my new friend :Love: So my experiences:

Prazimat: With the Tool holders bottoming out on the topslide I can only get up to 10mm tooling in a slot before the top of the tool goes over centre and it is time to grind the cutting edge lower  :disappointed:.

Colchester: The B post is a nice size for her. This is it with my delicate little boring bar mounted that is being used to bore the backplates. The B size happily holds huge tools up to 30mm tall but the cutting edge of the tool can only be just over 25mm from the bottom of the slot for the tool.

My new friend  :embarassed: This morning I discovered that someone had clearly given him the wrong washer for the post as the holders hit :Doh: With his tool holders I can happily use 16mm sq tool steel and have a little adjustment available  ;D

So based on that I would say the A size is about as good as it gets for a Hardinge, the E size will mean you can only use shorter tools  :-\.

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on May 10, 2015, 11:31:41 AM
Jo

Has someone been using the Swiss nut rounding spanner on his nut , if you pardon my comment you have to change his nut PDQ it's not in keeping , glad you have put a new washer on


Ops I better be carful my post could be construed as non PC ,but it's ok as I don't use a PC  :Love:

Hurry up I want to see him strut his stuff  :stir:

I do think it's clever of mutifix that the square tool key is bored deep enough to tweek up the height adjusting lock nut

Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: stvy on May 10, 2015, 11:44:48 AM
Jo,

I admit that I have not completely thought the A ==> E (for those not familiar with the E size it sits between A and B) plan through 100% (I've not invested in any E tooling yet) but based on my initial research the E size is a better fit size for the HLV-H according to the recommendations on sizing. and this will give me:


1. For E size there are 16mm, 20mm, and 25mm tool holders, A are 16mm and 20mm. E size boring are 30mm & 40mm, A are 20mm and 30mm.

The A and E size 16mm give the exact same minimum center height according to what I can find on line. As you report 5/8"|16mm2 tooling is a very nice fit.  I am not 100% nsure but I think 20mm will be possible as well with E size. The other reasons to go for this is that I recently got some nice threading tools holders that are 20mm and a few parting tools at 20mm & 25mm, and some insert solid carbide boring bars from 10mm upto 32mm Ø for a pence on the pound. They are all sitting in a drawer waiting to be used, and I'd love to be able to use them! I am confident I can make custom holders from E size blanks but not sure there is enough meat on the A size.

2. A more robust tool post and tool holder (minor benefit)

3. Problem. E size seem to be like hen's teeth. Even more so the 16mm E size, and the 16mm are not available from Create in China, but blanks are.

Anyhow enough of the multifix talk... Let's talk HLV-H......

I am still in the process of moving from my Boxford to the HLV-H primarily because I still have a ton of work left do on the Hardinge as I need to save up for some replacement parts and little free time these days but one day.... :-) Regarding ZMT, I do not think they are unfair on prices. Hardinge are the root cause of the high prices.


Did you get any other accessories with it? If so please post. There are a bunch of interesting options out there:

1. Micrometer/indicator cross slide, carriage and bed indicators and stops
2. Radius turning attachment
3. rear tool holder slide assembly. This is one I am actively looking for on ebay.com. Nothing so far.
4. Tail stocks...

In the USA market their was only ever 1 type of tail stock, MT2 with a hand wheel. In the UK there was 1 more official type and a 3rd that I've seen a number of times now. There is a "lever drilling tail stock". MT2 but with tang type tooling positive lock and a nice long lever. The 3rd has a capstan rather than the hand wheel. all the capstan equipped look identical but I have yet to find the source of this modification.


Steve

Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 10, 2015, 11:45:47 AM
Yes his nut is not a very pretty sight  :disappointed:

He is all measured up for his DRO I should be negotiating the purchase this week, the plan is it will be fitted next weekend  ;D


A lot of swarf is currently being made. As well as the doughnuts of steel I purchased three 160mm diameter faceplates from RDG. This CI is not as nice as the Myford faceplates they sell  :ShakeHead: I have managed to get a 165mm diameter plate from the first one, I have not started boring them yet but it is pretty tough CI it really could have done with a bit more heat treatment  ;)

I also had another Hardinge 3 jaw chuck dropped off yesterday, so that is three he has now  :headscratch: There is not enough space in his cupboard for all these chucks and plates I will have to find some means of hanging them on the wall  :noidea:

And a load of free soft jaws  :headscratch: there is only one true set the rest is sets of three jaws one of each number

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 10, 2015, 11:52:41 AM
Did you get any other accessories with it? If so please post. There are a bunch of interesting options out there:

1. Micrometer/indicator cross slide, carriage and bed indicators and stops
2. Radius turning attachment
3. rear tool holder slide assembly. This is one I am actively looking for on ebay.com. Nothing so far.
4. Tail stocks...

I have the bed stop. I won't need the dials or micrometers once the DRO is fitted.

My supplier might be acquiring a possible radius turning attachment this afternoon  :naughty:.

For the rear tool holder I was going to use my spare Multifix post  ;)

A lever feed tailstock would be nice.

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 10, 2015, 04:32:49 PM
 I have learnt more this afternoon about taper turners: If you measure the angle using the DRO don't forget to take the backlash out before you adjust the angle   :slap: Don't try to take 1mm deep cuts, it can move the set angle  :Director: It is worth checking the taper's angle every few cuts to provide confidence it has not slipped  :-[


Having set the angle to 7.990 degrees (not the 30 seconds under 4 degrees :ShakeHead:) I used one of those "Is this any good to you, its been hanging around for years, you might as well store it on your shelves than it gather rust here" opportunities that one should never turn down  :) to turn the master taper out of  :)

Having suffered from taper cutting problems I mentioned at the top of this post :( it was finally time to test the taper, first with a chuck and the driver plate on the Hardinge, then on my cut taper and the fit in the drive plate.

I think we are ready to go but not tonight its race night  :whoohoo:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on May 10, 2015, 04:37:52 PM
I could tell you the results if you want to get a bit more done in the workshop :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on May 10, 2015, 05:45:14 PM
Jo

I am not trying to teach you to suck eggs , but before you commit to the real thing blue it again with just a smear almost non existent amount you may get a different read, or cheat and use a blue sharpie , the black one,s are NBG

From here you could have a false read due to the ammount blue that's squeezed out


Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 10, 2015, 06:57:22 PM
That's called photographic license: it is from a second smearing when I found that with the sun behind the lathe you couldn't see the colour in the photo very well  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 11, 2015, 07:53:44 AM
In light of the slow progress towards getting my new friend up and running  :-\ I have started to make more serious enquires about availability and delivery times for the DRO and scales  :naughty:.  I am planning to go high resolution for the cross slide

Then I will need a 2.2KW 3ph motor so I can finish off the wiring  :zap:

Looks like he will be up and running in about two weeks. Visitors will then be welcome to come and meet him but I would advise caution: getting to know the pleasures of a quality machine can be very expensive  :embarassed:

Jo

Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on May 11, 2015, 07:59:21 AM
Jo any particular reason for just going to 1um? on the cross slide and not the carrage/top slide. I can understand that we tend to spend more time sneaking upto a diameter but its also useful to take a small amount of a face or shoulder on occasion.

Also are you going for 2 or 3 scales?
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 11, 2015, 08:17:43 AM
Yes: the cross slide takes twice as much off the diameter per unit measurement, so the additional resolution will compensate. There is no point in up grading the other scales as I do not have the measuring equipment/stable environmental conditions to be able to machine to those accuracies.

3 channel lathe display fitted with only 2 scales.

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 11, 2015, 11:02:22 AM
 :wallbang: My DRO supplier is on holiday until the 17th May so I won't be fitting it this coming weekend  :-[

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: sco on May 11, 2015, 11:18:38 AM
I know you probably get special discount but when I got my dro he was more expensive than Machine-DRO.

Simon.
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 11, 2015, 11:54:39 AM
I know you probably get special discount

 :lolb: Last time he didn't charge me the postage on the second DRO.

M-DRO are normally 20% dearer due to the vat  ::)

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on May 11, 2015, 12:14:29 PM
I would have thought he has to pay VAT when he buys them in and then passes that cost onto you. So really Machine DRO would only be charging an extra 20% on any markup/profit etc.

I know before I was VAT registed I did not knock 20% off what materials were costing me when I invoiced the client.

Probably got less overheads to pay as he has no retail outlet, few if any adverts, does not support the shows by taking a stand etc. so thats why he may be cheaper.

Did the second DRO come in the same package as the first or was it bought at a later date? Most e-bay sellers will combine several items and just charge a single postage amount which is often based on weight.
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 11, 2015, 12:27:56 PM
They are being supplied "directly" from a far eastern country, only they have a local warehouse that packs the parcel so VAT is not payable  ::)

The second DRO was in the same parcel, as will both be again this time  :mischief:.

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: sco on May 11, 2015, 12:42:34 PM
I've found the support and after sales service from M-DRO to be excellent.
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on May 11, 2015, 12:45:49 PM
They are being supplied "directly" from a far eastern country, only they have a local warehouse that packs the parcel so VAT is not payable  ::)

The second DRO was in the same parcel, as will both be again this time  :mischief:.

Jo

So is this a loophole in the VAT law, if I buy something direct from the far east or US chances are I will have to pay vat & import duty.

As for postage thats what I though, I recently bought four items from an e-bay seller with £6-7 postage each, when I asked for a total price I only paid £7.50 postage. Machine DRO don't double the postage for two sets of scales & readouts just a fractional increase.

I suppose something has to go towards them paying their employees holiday pay and also paying another member of staff to cover the holiday so they can keep to their next day delivery gaurantee ;)
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 11, 2015, 12:49:45 PM
It would seem: I ordered some knobs the other day from Hong Pong and they arrived next day with a return address in the UK and it had UK internal postage on it.

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 11, 2015, 12:50:43 PM
I've found the support and after sales service from M-DRO to be excellent.

Yes they are also very good. I brought my first set of DROs from them.

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 12, 2015, 07:22:14 AM
My DRO supplier was good enough to respond and apologise for his inconsiderate holiday timing  8) He can provide every thing I need for my new friend but for Sexy's set up he is short of one of the high resolution heads  :-\ Clearly not many people bother with the higher resolution scales, no doubt they also realise that most of us cannot measure to that level of accuracy.

It is not long now: I am already looking forward to a week long Honeymoon with my new friend, I already have a little job lined up for him :embarassed:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Heffalump on May 12, 2015, 08:47:28 AM
Can't wait to see him spinning
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 12, 2015, 12:45:46 PM
You and I both Jim  ;)

One more step closer: I have just ordered the 3HP motor for the rotary conversion to the static 3 phase converter. Hopefully the motor will be with me tomorrow, then I can do the wiring and we will be nearly ready to make swarf  :pinkelephant:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: sco on May 12, 2015, 02:00:29 PM
With this precision machining facility now available at your fingertips are you going to be taking on contract work for NASA?  ;D

Simon.
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 12, 2015, 02:58:09 PM
Only once I have completed one of every model engine casting sets available and not forgetting those other little items on my must build list  :mischief:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Allen Smithee on May 12, 2015, 03:01:34 PM
With this precision machining facility now available at your fingertips are you going to be taking on contract work for NASA?  ;D

Simon.

I doubt it - NASA work in inferial, and Jo prefers metric.

But she could probably make some more reliable left-rear wheelnut components for those teams which seem to only have the capacity to make good parts for one of their two cars...

 :stir:

AS
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: BillTodd on May 12, 2015, 08:17:40 PM
Quote
to make good parts for one of their two cars...
The f1 wheel nut designs are pretty crazy imho.

A company i do work for makes f1 parts for[edit] a championship winning team . the wheel nuts don't weight anything and don't look strong enough to hold the lid on my flask of tea:-)

As to making enough parts for all cars, it's currently taking them 85+hours to mill one brake disk holder. The thing starts as a 8 inch titanium bar gets half of it turned away to make the blank for milling ,then gets drilled and milled with more holes than a swiss cheese . it has pockets in places where there doesn't seem to be material to cut a pocket nor the room to get the tool in to do it. There are multiple setups on three 5 axis mills just to get the radii on every hole correct. They're a nightmare but the guys love the work :-)
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 12, 2015, 08:34:48 PM
Electrics: There are four rules:

1, Disconnect all power.
2, Isolate all power.
3, Check all terminals with a voltmeter for any volts.
4, Short terminals to earth (to discharge any capacitors)

Once these are done the wiring can commence.

All power wires are being labelled as their phase number, this means they are connected back up they will have the same winding in the same place going through the contactors if the motor is not in circuit  ;) Where additional wires are being used for earths they are having earth sleeving on the outsides of their ends.

Three machines connected, wiring resistance checked, resistance to earth and earth continuity tested  :). The new drop cable is ready to go on the motor so if it arrives tomorrow which will also be tested.

Did I mention the importance of testing electrical wiring  ::)

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: sco on May 12, 2015, 09:14:08 PM
Quote
to make good parts for one of their two cars...
The f1 wheel nut designs are pretty crazy imho.

A company i do work for makes f1 parts for[edit] a championship winning team . the wheel nuts don't weight anything and don't look strong enough to hold the lid on my flask of tea:-)

As to making enough parts for all cars, it's currently taking them 85+hours to mill one brake disk holder. The thing starts as a 8 inch titanium bar gets half of it turned away to make the blank for milling ,then gets drilled and milled with more holes than a swiss cheese . it has pockets in places where there doesn't seem to be material to cut a pocket nor the room to get the tool in to do it. There are multiple setups on three 5 axis mills just to get the radii on every hole correct. They're a nightmare but the guys love the work :-)

Most of the 'trick' with the wheel nuts is to use a very high grade of ally and special coatings, even then they have a very short life - not only does the thread get chewed but the interface with the wheel gun socket gets destroyed by the mechanics gunning the nuts on and off without the socket being fully engaged - understandable given the time pressure they are under.

Simon.
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Roger B on May 13, 2015, 07:29:20 AM
Electrics: There are four rules:

1, Disconnect all power.
2, Isolate all power.
3, Check all terminals with a voltmeter for any volts.
4, Short terminals to earth (to discharge any capacitors)

Jo

It is also important to check the voltmeter on a know voltage source before and after step 3, although step 4 will detect if a faulty voltmeter was used for step 3   :zap:

To be absolutely pedantic, you should check for the presence of voltage before you isolate just in case the circuits are mislabeled and the one you are working on is switched off somewhere, just waiting for your colleague to turn it back on  :censored:
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on May 13, 2015, 07:34:58 AM
Roger

You beat me to it  :cheers:

Three test rule was what we were taught

To be even more pedantic leave the earths connected until done or the need to test, not really needed when you are the only one in the room but necessary in a factory environ.

Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Allen Smithee on May 13, 2015, 08:16:47 AM
Tsk, tsk! So much red tape!

Just test things you're going to touch with a licked finger to see if they're live - you soon get the hang of it...

AS
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on May 13, 2015, 08:53:45 AM
Sorry Allen

It's commonsence when you are working on electric stuf when as we mostly are alone in the the WS and in Jo case ( sorry Jo ) alone on the property , there is no one to pull you off and get help

If that's red tape I will hang up my hat

Over fifty years working with the lectric stuf inc a lot of live working ( not alone) and still here by observing the red tape you scorn so much

Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Roger B on May 13, 2015, 09:02:29 AM
Tsk, tsk! So much red tape!

Just test things you're going to touch with a licked finger to see if they're live - you soon get the hang of it...

AS

If you're working with a few kV there's no need to lick your finger, the spark will jump a good distance  ;)
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 13, 2015, 09:07:33 AM
When I was working with Queensland Rail I found myself having to stand on top of one of the loco's. The overhead cables run at 25KV  :o

You really made sure you personally had turned the power off and taken the interlock with you when you worked on them  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Allen Smithee on May 13, 2015, 10:02:34 AM
Sorry Allen

It's commonsence when you are working on electric stuf when as we mostly are alone in the the WS and in Jo case ( sorry Jo ) alone on the property , there is no one to pull you off and get help

If that's red tape I will hang up my hat

Over fifty years working with the lectric stuf inc a lot of live working ( not alone) and still here by observing the red tape you scorn so much

Um...I think your sarcasm detector needs recalibrating!

Obviously you'd never test a potentially live circuit with your finger - you'd get an apprentice to use *his* finger. Isn't that what apprentices are for?

AS
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on May 13, 2015, 10:16:57 AM
To true Jo and Roger

Allen this forum is read by many all over the big ball , we have the depth and scope of members to help and keep people safe when they may be a novice with the electrics , it's our responsibility to push them to safe working practice . Not only to produce the parts for our engines and the installation and maintenance of our machines.

You get the comments I read it on the website so it must be the way to do it , bad advice however flippant it is can if used in wrong context be dangerouse

Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 13, 2015, 10:42:28 AM
Very true Stuart: As they say "Safety first, second and third with electrics" we all want to live to make swarf another day.

In our workshops we may not comply with industrial safety standards like having swarf guards everywhere (mine are stored behind the Milling machine  ;)) but electric is the invisible killer: if it grabs you you will know about it every fraction of a second of the rest of your remaining life :-[

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 13, 2015, 02:28:14 PM
The motor has turned up for the converter conversion ;D

The wiring is continuing a pace: I had to run a new cable round to the BCA. Trying to get those wires through the armoured sheathing  :ShakeHead: I tried taping the end into a point and then taping every foot: all it did was get stuck  :-\ I then tried it with only a single cable and it got stuck  :(  Then I remembered I had the wire gadget with the wobbly ball on the end for threading cable through and it was too short  >:( So having used a carbide drill and made a hole through it and wound an earth cable through the hole, taped that round to get rid of the edges, it got stuck  :rant:  At this point we had words and after a bit more pulling and poking it went through followed by the bundle of four wires  ;)

And I also found a wiring fault I found while doing my Electrics  :o : an old rubber wire had worn through probably through vibration on the BCA :censored: best to find these things rather than for them to find you  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on May 13, 2015, 03:12:30 PM
Jo

was that the nasty spiral wound flexible conduit stuff its horrible , the problem is it worked with the old fashioned 7/029 style cable but the new fangled single core single core pvc it no like to go through, even on normal conduit its a pain in the posterior .

anyway you got it poked through


that wiring look old enough to be VIR ( Vulcanised India Rubber ) or as I use its the nemonic for ohms law think of a triangle with the V at the top and the I R below if you want I then its V / R  works for me

as yo say better to be found now and not later


I am a bit nonplussed at the moment bought a new printer that has a door to put in the paper but then the door won't shut  :ThumbsDown: :ThumbsDown:

Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 13, 2015, 03:27:24 PM
was that the nasty spiral wound flexible conduit stuff its horrible , the problem is it worked with the old fashioned 7/029 style cable but the new fangled single core single core pvc it no like to go through, even on normal conduit its a pain in the posterior .

That's the stuff. It is multi strand cable I am using but there are not many strands and they are fairly thick.

I have just discovered that my new motor has a larger output shaft from my old Brooks motor. So I am going to have to bore out my spare Colchester drive pulley if I want to use it as a flywheel  :-\

Jo

 
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Don1966 on May 13, 2015, 03:59:52 PM
Still following you Jo and I want to remind you of rule number four, always amp check all input lines to motor after installing. Nice work girl.............. :ThumbsUp:

Don
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 13, 2015, 05:01:37 PM
Thanks Don, Peter has been good enough to offer me a clamp meter to test those. But I have a rule: there is always an earthed piece of metal between me and any 415V  :paranoia:


Motor connection time:

Compliant 1: the wiring diagram in the book is so small you need a magnifier to read it  :ShakeHead: and it fails to show a choc block under the connection cover  :headscratch: I am going to leave that well alone.

Complaint 2: one of the cover screws was in so tight that I shattered the end of my screw driver trying to remove it  >:(


Test 1: check the resistance between earth and the windings and between the windings. All ok.

So now we can put a lead on it. The terminals have crimps on them, there are no hairy bits sticking out the sides of the crimps :hellno: and they are all mounted on an angle to minimise the strain on the cable  :)

Test 2: repeat the same resistance tests with the bit of string attached.

Put the cover plate back on. Connect up to the transwave and apply power.

 :o Its got a flick to it when it starts, it needs bolting down  :agree: And it looses a bit of noise if sat on a bit of felt

So mounting time  ;)

Jo

 

Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on May 13, 2015, 05:11:24 PM
Jo
If it's the little white block in the second pic I would bet a pound to a pinch of snuff it's a thermocouple embedded in the windings , for temp protection


Keep at it we will get you a JIB card , but I think they go by a different name now


Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 13, 2015, 05:32:45 PM
Ok I am not happy it is taking 8A on no load  :o My Colchester only takes 4.5A

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on May 13, 2015, 06:00:22 PM
is that for the idler on its own ?

Jo
what is the  hp rating of the two motors ?


is that the input current to the system e.g. static plus idler ?

if its the input its about 1900watts  times the PF which i do not know

this new man is going to take some feeding you would be looking at about 4 KW good job its on a spur unit although its getting a bit OT , you would need a 45 amp switch non fused with the same size MCB in the consumer unit much like a cooker supply

Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 13, 2015, 06:46:10 PM
I've been experimenting:

New idler motor 2.2KW no load = 8A on the dial.
Colchester 2.2KW gear head etc mid speed = 6A on the dial.
Harrison 1.5KW no load = 6A on the dial  :headscratch:

This static converter will not run both 2.2KW motors together on no load :ShakeHead:

It is fed by a 45A supply.

Jo

Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Roger B on May 13, 2015, 07:10:26 PM
"This static converter will not run both 2.2KW motors together on no load"

Does that mean that you don't think that it will work, or that you have tried and it didn't?

The phase angles will play an important part here and the currents will not add directly.
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 13, 2015, 07:12:20 PM
I have tried it and it did not work.

Next to check incoming single phase voltage actual voltage.

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on May 13, 2015, 07:20:09 PM
Jo

The Harrison is near the load of the  Hardinge will it start that with the idler running?

Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 13, 2015, 07:28:07 PM
Input voltage = 246 V Ac.

The Hardinge will start on slow speed with the Harrison acting as a pilot but not on high speed :'(

It is looking more and more like I will be buying a 4HP rotary converter  :paranoia:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on May 13, 2015, 07:46:38 PM
Jo

Them moths will be getting scared of this talk of spending . Got to agree though you need to get one that is ( pardon the pun ) man enough for the job the add 25% on top to give you some head room

I would talk to your converter guy and be guided by them after all they make the things .

Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Don1966 on May 13, 2015, 08:07:06 PM
Jo your pulling close to a 3HP MOTOR  with the new motor. How big of a static inverter  do you have? You may have trouble with the 4 hp one also. The efficiency of the system is low and the amps will go up to compensate for the loss of HP. Note the higher current! In other words your drawing current but doing nothing with it. This has to do with phase shift in voltage and current not counting that the phase my be shifting on the three phases.

Regards
Don
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 13, 2015, 08:08:20 PM
At this rate I will have to sell one of my Cowells to balance the books :toilet_claw:

Does anyone need a 3ph converter, it looks like I will have some spare ones  :-[

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: BillTodd on May 13, 2015, 08:08:54 PM
Those no load values seem high to me ,smacks of phase/ pf errors .

FWIW my hlv runs s with a 10a fuse in the plug and, apart from tripping the rcd occasionally (that's vfds for you)  , has not blown the 4a fuse that drives the main motor vfd even under load (the motor is only 1/2 hp on low and 1.5hp on high)

Canyou fiddle-arse around with the caps to get a better balance? (You sound like you've played with electrics before ;-)  )
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on May 13, 2015, 08:10:47 PM
Will that even have enough guts for when you buy your next mill? I would have thought a Beaver has quite an appitite especially if he is munching through something on power feed while you are using another machine.

Now what was it someone said back in post #28? "better still sell the static and get a nice new rotary converter from that man."

J
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 13, 2015, 08:11:58 PM
Jo your pulling close to a 3HP MOTOR  with the new motor. How big of a static inverter  do you have?

Don: It is a 2.2KW static converter. The new motor is a 2.2KW = 3HP motor. When I spoke to the technical department of Transwave I was advised that it could run two motors and that the pilot motor should be as big as possible as it would draw next to no current. Well clearly it is drawing a lot, so what I was told was  :censored:.

I will be looking to speak directly with Peter Moss tomorrow.

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: BillTodd on May 13, 2015, 08:12:08 PM
At this rate I will have to sell one of my Cowells to balance the books :toilet_claw:

Does anyone need a 3ph converter, it looks like I will have some spare ones  :-[

Jo

Those static motor cookers do still sell well on ebay so you may not need to dig too deep into the money pit ;-)
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Allen Smithee on May 14, 2015, 12:23:42 AM
Jo your pulling close to a 3HP MOTOR  with the new motor. How big of a static inverter  do you have?

Don: It is a 2.2KW static converter. The new motor is a 2.2KW = 3HP motor. When I spoke to the technical department of Transwave I was advised that it could run two motors and that the pilot motor should be as big as possible as it would draw next to no current. Well clearly it is drawing a lot, so what I was told was  :censored:.

I will be looking to speak directly with Peter Moss tomorrow.

So the pilot motor is drawing 8A with no load (is that per phase or the input current of the transwave?).

Is it getting hot? The power has to go somewhere. If it is NOT getting hot then the current isn't "real" - there is a large phase difference between the current and voltage, so whilst you'll be paying for the current it isn't actually developing the *power* implied by the figure. This can be fixed with a suitable array of power factor correction capacitors.

AS
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on May 14, 2015, 07:55:29 AM
If it's due to watt less current then the PF of the system must be very poor not good as Allen says you will pay for it but it will do no work .

Some stern words are needed with your converter man , it should be as you say draw very little current because it's doing no work


Keep us informed please as we are like " five alive " we need information for the collective


IMHO you may need a five HP unit and now things are getting spendy

Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 14, 2015, 08:05:29 AM
IMHO you may need a five HP unit and now things are getting spendy

:o the 4HP unit is expensive enough and weights in at 70Kg.

4HP would let me run the Harrison on powerfeed and the Hardinge at the same time. The problem of having too many machines on at once is you cannot hear the cut and get that important warning before nasty things happen :disappointed: 

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on May 14, 2015, 08:11:44 AM
Jo

Point taken


But you do need to sort out those amps because you are paying for them  :stir:

Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 14, 2015, 08:32:36 AM
But you do need to sort out those amps because you are paying for them  :stir:

Not in day light  ;)

Both the 4HP and 5.5HP rotary converters are the same size and weight  :headscratch: And there is only £120 in the price.. I already have a 45A feed to the converter so the feed is already there for either unit :thinking:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on May 14, 2015, 09:08:16 AM
Ahh long distance photon power with voltaic cell plus inverter to get it wobbly


Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 14, 2015, 09:16:53 AM
What have I done   :facepalm: I have traded in that new motor as part of my new converter purchase  ;)

So I have a 5.5HP rotary converter arriving tomorrow for £850 :whoohoo:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 14, 2015, 10:24:58 AM
A bit more information: not all rotary converters are the same  :disappointed:

The blue MT (Motor transformer) rotary converters operate in the manner we were trying to get mine to do by including a electric motor in the box   :)

The Grey RT (Rotary Transformer) rotary converters have that lump on the side that looks like a motor, that is actually a rotary transformer  ;) They buy the motor carcase in and wind a special rotor which takes the 240V in and has three tappings for the 415V out. The basic one is built round a rotary transformer that will run up to 7.5HP the difference between them being the electronics. The up shot being you can take a 4HP RT and have it uprated in the factory for about £150  :naughty:

Peter suspects that when my contactor went a year and a half ago that the power capacitors are not dropping out correctly, which should be a simple fix but it will have to go back to the factory to be checked out.

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Roger B on May 14, 2015, 10:55:27 AM
Sounds like you're getting there  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp: Chips at the weekend?
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Allen Smithee on May 14, 2015, 11:45:42 AM
Chips at the weekend?

Only once the 3-phase deep fryer is wired-in...

AS
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on May 14, 2015, 12:42:17 PM
Thanks for that info Jo  Peters comment confirms to me that the of is out with the fairies.


Interesting about the MT and RT versions it sounds very much like the ASEA rotary converters I use to work on, they were pre war and the ASEA logo was the reversed swastica , anyway they worked reverse to what you are doing 6 phase in and 220 DC out at 2000 amps , they had open knife switch gear for starting rubber mat and close your eyes when starting up , simply the tapped the slip rings off the knuckles in the windings interesting to test from the com end these were open frame machines no guards  :zap:

The only thing no electronics

Good luck with the install we do not want any trapped toe or fingers

Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 15, 2015, 08:04:59 AM
Another thing I had missed was that the old static converter has four wires 3 power and an earth, the rotary converters have a five pin connector so that is 3 power, neutral and earth.

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on May 15, 2015, 09:46:22 AM
Must be a star connected RT then

Reminds me of a Scott transformer only in reverse ( but that's not possible ) they work the other wat TP in and two phase out but at 90degree phase angle developed by Westinghouse


Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 15, 2015, 10:16:39 AM
 >:( I have just realised that my FCU only has a 13A fuse, its a 20A switch on it.

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on May 15, 2015, 11:40:43 AM
I did wonder when you showed the pic I observed a fuse

You need something like this for local isolation
http://www.builderdepot.co.uk/bg-nexus-45amp-switched-double-pole-plate-with-neon-874.html?gclid=Cj0KEQjwstaqBRCT38DWpZjJotIBEiQAERS6_MFcDSCp8KcoY9XRfiNOEHAu9jjqmV2xlAeLmhicDZYaAoN-8P8HAQ

Note it's a DP

Fed with a suitable MCB as recommended by your supplier make sure you get the correct type else you could get false trips

Not to sure of the current cable ratings let me have a look
 6 mm T & E is ok for 40 amp 10 mm would be a bit OTT

By ekk he is taking some housing
Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 15, 2015, 12:01:18 PM
I am beginning to hope he will be worth it  :-\

The converter has arrived. Unlike some others I have seen there is no sticking out rotor on the rotary transformer  8)

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Heffalump on May 15, 2015, 12:20:51 PM
I'm getting excited now Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 15, 2015, 03:47:18 PM
Slow speed 1500 rpm  :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0tAPVlLS30



Then we realised a screw was missing on the back panel when we went to high speed so then Eric put his foot on that to stop it rattling then he wouldn't keep quiet while I was videoing  :shrug:... High Speed 3000 rpm 8)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9I7UVgAAR9Y

Ok so we are still on a 13A fused switch and when we tried to run the Colchester's 3hp and the Hardinge on high speed the fuse blew  :Doh: But the rotary is up and running  ;D

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on May 15, 2015, 03:51:03 PM
Well Jo I think a  :drinking-41: is in order

You can give the pencils out for a job well done


Stuart


For info if the load on say a 13 amp fuse in put on slowly they can take about 26 amp but a sharp rise will take they out at a lower value.

Just do the maths on. The energy that is present when a 13 amp fuse blows on a short circuit , if memory is correct its a lot of joules
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on May 15, 2015, 03:53:38 PM
Looking good Jo, I hope he will run for a bit longer once the intital excitement has worn off ;)

J
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Allen Smithee on May 15, 2015, 04:45:26 PM
It's a lot noisier than a proper Clark lathe...

AS
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 15, 2015, 04:55:05 PM
The rotary transformer is as loud as the Hardinge running but the other bigger machines are louder. I am expecting that he will be a little quieter once he is on the ground and in position. Which is planned for next weekend  :whoohoo:


Stuart I think trying to run a 2.2KW and a 1.1KW motor through a 13A fuse was pushing our luck  ;) For now I will take your advice :drinking-41:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: BillTodd on May 15, 2015, 05:21:46 PM
Jo,

Great to see it up and running at last B-)

Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Alan Haisley on May 15, 2015, 06:44:02 PM
 :cartwheel: :cartwheel: :cartwheel:
Close enough to smell the swarf!
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 15, 2015, 09:10:43 PM
Close enough to smell the swarf!

As long as I don't have to smell what came out of that coolant tank again  :toilet_claw:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Don1966 on May 16, 2015, 12:11:47 AM
Well done Jo!  :ThumbsUp:

Don
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 16, 2015, 07:02:42 PM
I can tell the difference between running machines on a static converter and a rotary transformer  8)

Sorry today the sun was out, the garden was calling. I got a bit more progress on the Digital display mount but sorry no photos  :mischief:

Tomorrow will be a sad day  :(  :'(

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: sco on May 16, 2015, 07:09:58 PM
 :cartwheel:
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: BillTodd on May 16, 2015, 09:12:52 PM
Quote
I can tell the difference between running machines on a static converter and a rotary transformer
  

:-)  shout it out girl! hallelujah! I hear the words of a convert  :old:
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 17, 2015, 08:36:11 AM
I can't put the difference into words  :)
 

This new friend is getting very demanding now C1 is going for him  :stickpoke:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Niels Abildgaard on May 17, 2015, 11:13:14 AM
Hello Jo and congratulation.
Was a single phase in/three ph out considered and why not?
I have a 3ph/3ph converter but have to disengage earth during connecting and consider getting a 1Ph/3Ph
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 17, 2015, 11:35:18 AM
Having Mains three phase put into the house was turned down due to the excessive cost  :help:

Sco's busy cutting gears in my workshop  8)

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Niels Abildgaard on May 17, 2015, 01:01:18 PM
Having Mains three phase put into the house was turned down due to the excessive cost  :help:

Jo

Yes I have understood that, but there are smart  boxes that feed on single phase input and hand out three phase of variable frequency 4-400 Hz?
Do newbuilt houses in England get three phase?
Here it is the norm if not mandatory.
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 17, 2015, 02:28:24 PM
The problem with a VFD is that they are used to control only one motor and have to be setup for that motor and they are no good for two speed motors unless you restrict yourself to only one of the two speeds. There are three motors on the Hardinge (Headstock, carriage feed & pump + low voltage light  :headscratch:) so alternative powering means would be needed for each. The Harrison also has three, Colchester two, BCA another two speed motor  :shrug:

New built houses normally get one phase and following houses get the next etc. to balance the loads. But if you live out in the sticks you are thankful sometimes if you have any power at all  :-\

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Niels Abildgaard on May 17, 2015, 04:24:52 PM
Hello Jo

I understand most of the arguments apart from the two speed motors.
First You do not need it really as the VFD handles it as well.
The possible torque from motor depends on airgap diameter and length of rotor and not selected winding.
Second I tried a two speed (Dahlander winding?) motor many years ago with  a Danfoss VFD without smoke.
No.
I did not change  windings power on.
If single phase power outs are facts we look forward to seing one homepower plant being made on Hardinge.
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 17, 2015, 05:30:13 PM
Simon was busy  ;)

I managed to finish repairing the last of the Multifix tool holders, removed all the come in handies and the night storage heater from behind where my new friend is going to live.

Then (http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Sad/sad-023.gif) another friend had one last sit on the dining room table before she parted company with me and left with Simon.

Jo

Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: sco on May 17, 2015, 07:39:38 PM
Home safe and sound - C1 now in my tender care.

I can't express what an honour it was to not only be allowed into Jo's workshop, to be shown all her models and casting set hoard but I was also let loose with the gear cutters.  Oh yeah the bacon sarnie for lunch was also top drawer!

Simon.
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 17, 2015, 07:46:15 PM
Pleased to hear you made it home safe Simon 8)

to be shown all her models and casting set hoard

What you missed was in that brown cupboard behind you and between Sexy's legs were even more model engine casting sets that I did not show you :embarassed:

C2 took the opportunity to move indoors after you left ::)

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on May 17, 2015, 07:49:46 PM
I was going to say that I'd be surprised if you had time to cut the gears after being shown Jo's whole casting collection, just as well you got the abridged version :LittleDevil:

Hope you enjoy the new little one.

J
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 18, 2015, 06:17:10 PM
I am not sure if I mentioned but my new friend has shown a habit of blowing the 13A fuse if I try to start him in high speed  :disappointed: Yes I know the rotary converter supply should have a 20A fuse but I am still waiting for them to arrive.

But I think have got to the bottom of it: If I start him on a low speed setting then wind him up he does not try to get over excited all at once. The joys of learning about a new friend :embarassed:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on May 18, 2015, 06:32:26 PM
My wood turning lathe uses a similar cone pully arrangement and can be a bit slow starting in the higher speeds when there is a big chunk of wood on it, a quick turn of the chuck by hand as you switch on gets it going easier. I'm sure once you have eliminated that fuse it will handle the higher starting currents OK.
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 18, 2015, 07:49:52 PM
There is no way I am giving him a helping hand, especially at 3000rpm :paranoia:

Does anyone know what voltage bulb his light fitting takes there is nothing in any of the instructions :headscratch:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on May 18, 2015, 07:53:00 PM
Jo

Quick answere "test it"  :zap: :stir:


I get my coat


Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on May 18, 2015, 07:53:18 PM
You only flick it round when its stationary and hit the on button before it stops spinning, no heed to get your hand near a "live" chuck.

Can't you put a volt meter on it
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 18, 2015, 08:10:36 PM
Can't you put a volt meter on it

Have you ever tried to poke two shielded probes into the confines of a bayonet socket that is down a tunnel at 90 degrees to the lamp shroud  ::)

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on May 18, 2015, 08:14:44 PM
Can't you locate the lamp wires inside that big box on the side of the stand?

Or just ask Eric :)
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on May 18, 2015, 08:20:02 PM
Jo

That's why lamp holders have skirts to keep apprentices fingers out :mischief:



Wot Jason said stick the prods on the trany. It's going to be 25v 50v 110v or maybe 250v all come in BC caps

We had fun when someone sorted the lamp cupboard and swapped ove the 25 and 250 over you grabbed what you though was 250 and you had 25  :zap:

Stuart

Or just stick a 250 in and look at how bright it is you should get an idea , KISS maybe the simple way out
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: BillTodd on May 18, 2015, 08:39:48 PM
The later square door models were usually 24vac there are a couple of fuses in the electrical cabinet marked lv (probably 2 or 4amp) worth checking. Btw there is sometimes a switch on the lamps mounting box than can be overlooked (for an hour while the maintenance engineer scratches his head wondering why the new bulb doesn't work - don't ask how i know this!)

If i had a 24v one, I would look to dropping the voltage to between 12 and 17vac with a resister and replacing the next to useless incandescent with a 6w Led . My one is 50v so have fitted a simple doubler circuit in an adapter and use a GU10 mains LED (which will run from 110v upwards)

The motor takes a sizable chunk of current to start at 3000rpm (there's a lot of drag on the belts)  . Repeated starts or lots of speed (hi-lo)  changes can trip the motor protection heaters.
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 18, 2015, 09:01:51 PM
Btw there is sometimes a switch on the lamps mounting box than can be overlooked (for an hour while the maintenance engineer scratches his head wondering why the new bulb doesn't work - don't ask how i know this!)

I had spotted that and was wondering how you were supposed to get at it  :headscratch:

Don't I know it takes lots of current  :ShakeHead: Thanks for the warning on the overloads, we are not long from making swarf now it would be embarrassing if they go.

The DRO display mount is coming on a treat  :wine1:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on May 18, 2015, 11:38:55 PM
My word, if it's taken all this to get the poor chap turning and all this about a work lamp, then, I fear at what cutting tool material is required; plutonium :shrug :shrug:

Big E
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 19, 2015, 07:16:49 AM
I fear at what cutting tool material is required; plutonium :shrug :shrug:

Big E

Good idea I might have to think about treating him to some new tooling as well   :naughty:

Nothing is too good for him  :embarassed:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on May 19, 2015, 07:40:29 AM
Maybe he would like some carbide shank indexable toolholders, less chance of him chattering then.

J
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 19, 2015, 12:49:36 PM
He will have to make do with the new DRO setup I have just brought for him for now  :cartwheel:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Niels Abildgaard on May 19, 2015, 05:53:46 PM
I fear at what cutting tool material is required; plutonium :shrug :shrug:

Big E

Good idea I might have to think about treating him to some new tooling as well   :naughty:

Nothing is too good for him  :embarassed:

Jo

To my mind  nothing better can be had than items on picture.The tangential uses Stellite(Crobalt),the part of thing carbide from Iscar and the CCMT takes anything.
If you give me the EXACT heigth of centerline over compound surface I will make a set for You and other Hardinge believers to try .If You want it to keep,(and You will) we can always arrange a deal involving that Prazemat lathe alike thing from communist DDR.
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 19, 2015, 07:27:37 PM
 :headscratch: I am a bit confused on that photo what is what. My new friend has on loan a Hertel parting off tool, his own couple of nice cobalt boring tools and a set of Sumitomo tools and Multifix set up to hold them all in. But he will need some better thread cutting tools, or I could get off my backside and grind them using the cutter grinder  :slap: HSS is so often better for the sort of things we do  :noidea:


I have said nothing about getting rid of my Prazimat  :hellno: I have extended the workshop for the Beaver  :-X and even with that in I will still have enough space to keep the Prazimat

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 19, 2015, 08:34:18 PM
The DRO is still a few days away from arriving but there is no reason not to make some of the mounts: so the display mount is in place and appears nicely in the middle of the top of the control box  ;)

Any one would think I planned it  :lolb:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 21, 2015, 12:03:51 PM
A quick update:

     The DROs  :mischief: are on route, they will be here tomorrow,

     the embrionic bed wipers are sitting in the freezer ready for me this evening  ;)
     and the necessary helpers are booked to help move him into personal place in the workshop this coming Sunday  :whoohoo:

Moving him in seems to have taken for ever  :facepalm2:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: sco on May 21, 2015, 12:20:38 PM
My new friend not being quite such a hefty beast as your new friend is quite handy when it comes to moving him from study to workshop and back again  :Jester:

Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on May 21, 2015, 03:20:49 PM
A quick update:

     The DROs  :mischief: are on route, they will be here tomorrow,

     the embrionic bed wipers are sitting in the freezer ready for me this evening  ;)
     and the necessary helpers are booked to help move him into personal place in the workshop this coming Sunday  :whoohoo:

Moving him in seems to have taken for ever  :facepalm2:

Jo


Jo

Is he a bit of hot stuff that he needs cooling off before you attend to his needs  :stir:

Won't be long now chips are imminent it's like waiting 40 weeks for the big event

Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 21, 2015, 03:38:53 PM
Won't be long now chips are imminent it's like waiting 40 weeks for the big event

But unlike those lucky parents who having waited the initial 40 weeks they then find 50 years later they have their big kids still living at home  :stickpoke: I am fully hoping and expecting he will still be with me 8).

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 21, 2015, 06:31:07 PM
 :ShakeHead: Putting the wipers in the freezer did not make it any easier to cut the rubber. In the end a scalpel and a wood drill followed by a very coarse file was used to cut them out and make the holes.

But they seem to work  :pinkelephant:

First picture = no wiper, streaky bits all over the place  :disappointed:

Second picture = front wiper in place and the tide mark of the oil  8)

Then third picture the rear wiper fitted same oil as before, and I have tide marks on both sides of the saddle  :cartwheel:

Now they need to be blackened so the steel bits are having a little dunk in my four stage blackening solution, first the degreaser for 10 mins  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 21, 2015, 07:14:05 PM
Rinse, then in the conditioner for 30 seconds, rinse, followed by about a minute in the blue coloured blackening solution, one final rinse and let dry. Then coat with oil and fit  :)

Another little job off of his ever shortening list  :drinking-41:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: steamer on May 22, 2015, 03:20:04 AM
She's really coming along great Jo!    You're doing a great job!   I'm watching!

Dave
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 22, 2015, 07:23:58 AM
Thanks Dave,

Not long now and we will be back on the model engines  :cartwheel:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on May 22, 2015, 07:49:42 AM
OT
Jo

Any rumbles during the night at your location ?


Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 22, 2015, 08:22:21 AM
Not that woke me up  ;)

Meanies of UPS they tried delivering my DROs a day early  :Director: Colin wrote on the parcel in HUGE letters deliver first thing Friday. Now they are saying by the end of the day  >:(

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 22, 2015, 11:46:28 AM
They just made it  ;)

I forgot Colin loves to put his labels all over the place  :ShakeHead:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 22, 2015, 01:02:33 PM
The display fitted straight on  8)

Cross slide first then he is ready to be slid into place  ;) The aim is to hang the high resolution head off the back of the bed, this scale is longer than the movement to provide me with enough mounting space so that I can attach the mounting plate to the part of the saddle that is square. I have marked both the limit of the mount on the cross slide and the limit of the cross slide when fully forward on the scale mount.

Only on of the original pair of mounting holes lines up with the bed so a new pair need to be milled. These are cut with a 5mm and 12mm slot drill and the originals had 4 mm of side ways movement for alignment, so I am doing the same again.

I was given two of these nice little FC3 cutter holders for my Autolock, one metric and the other inferior they are rather nice  :)

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on May 22, 2015, 01:18:56 PM
Well at least the other holder could be used on those metric 6.35mm  shank cutters ;)

Expect to see him giving a full display be tea time :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 22, 2015, 03:04:53 PM
I decided that I didn't like the end of the scale mount waggling around in the wind  :disappointed: So I added an additional mount on the end.

To initially set the mount level I used the angle gauge. I clocked it in, then I mounted the scale and clocked that in  ;)

Once the scale is in place we know where the head wants to sit and that can be mounted next  :)

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Heffalump on May 22, 2015, 03:33:47 PM
Those mag-mounts with pushy in buttons are rather good Jo, I've got one in the workshop its indespensible.
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on May 22, 2015, 03:38:16 PM
Jo

Looking good ,well thought out .


You do not want the 1micro scale moving it defeats the reason to have them , negate the backlash if the scale moves/flexes it will introduce its own error

Question how will you prove the scale along its length , I assume that the Sino has a calibration function?

Newall recommend useing JO blocks and using a a DTI as a null indicator , or you could use a 3D taster  along its length to enable the error to be mapped out

So we await the 1 micron in 300 mm machining  :P

Stuart

Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 22, 2015, 05:44:01 PM
 :headscratch: The reason for the high res head is to be able to read diameter without the last digit jumping.

One scale mounted. Until I adjusted the display it thought the cross slide was moving nearly 1m  :ROFL: I also added another digit on the display for good measure.

I thought you might enjoy the electrical warning sticky on the back of the display as much as I did :lolb:

It looks like the main bed scale will be an easier fit, tomorrow  :wine1:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on May 22, 2015, 06:36:02 PM
 :happyreader:

Jo. I wonder how long the fuse will hold a charge when fully charged < 0.0000001 sec would be ok  :stir:

Hope the manual is better but I am blue in the face waiting , they make decent/cheap equipment but they do let themselves down with the translations , but maybe not as bad as flat pack institutions  :stir:

Looking good but take a close look at the pinch point with the cable for the feed motor , maybe soften the edge of the bracket to prevent chafing

Got to go quick 8% bat left

Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 23, 2015, 03:15:54 PM
It is never very nice drilling into a machine  :disappointed: Up to now I have always put a backing piece behind the scale but this time I decided to try with out :thinking: A backing plate also gives a bit of space for the head.

Levelling the main scale up took a while, not helped by me using a super accurate dial to measure the off set. It is level to under 2.5um  8)

The bracket for the head was easy then there was about an hour of panic as the saddle seemed to have got stuck.  :headscratch: No the wipers had not stuck  :headscratch:  :slap: I had put the carriage clutch up when I drilled for the head  :Doh:

Finally the scales are all in place and we are ready to rumble ;D

This will be his spot new spot, and the Prazimat will be loosing the window seat and going in this small gap I found  :naughty:

I also realised that the Prazimat has been hording tools, it will not be keeping all of those  :hellno: My new friend has already put his name on the 5C collets

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on May 23, 2015, 03:29:48 PM
Jo


I had to smile when you said you had a panic when the carriage was stuck a comment came to mine made by cool hand Luke " wiping it off boss " the glow that is ladies do the horses sweat


Soon be time for the big move

Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Allen Smithee on May 23, 2015, 04:50:17 PM
That space looks suspiciously Myford-shaped...

 :thinking:

AS
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on May 23, 2015, 05:03:59 PM
That space looks suspiciously Myford-shaped...

 :thinking:

AS

Looks more Beaver shaped to me :)
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on May 23, 2015, 05:30:15 PM
Looks empty to me  :stir:

Jo go out and buy some more machines you have unused floor space  :Director:


Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 23, 2015, 06:12:29 PM
Jo go out and buy some more machines you have unused floor space  :Director:

:shrug: I am worried about my pet moths, I know the summer is here but I haven't seen any of them for at least a month  :o

As for space: I was thinking about moving the bench into the middle as an Island bench  :mischief:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on May 23, 2015, 07:45:37 PM
Surly after a month it must be payday :stir:

I must be lucky I get one every calendar month and two more every four weeks with Linda also gets one every four weeks  :drinking-41:

That's before you ask one from NatWest and three from the state adds up very nicely  :pinkelephant:

Don't worry only jesting


Just be safe when the move happens I should not say thus as it's not PC but mostly two things happen in a hurry black finger nails and making babies  :LittleAngel:

Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 23, 2015, 08:36:00 PM
but mostly two things happen in a hurry black finger nails and making babies  :LittleAngel:

I suspect the last fella that got a black finger nail round here had similar worries but in my experience getting a black finger nail doesn't directly result in a baby :lolb:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 24, 2015, 10:01:09 AM
 :headscratch: I am sure I said something about a 6" vernier but would prefer something a bit longer. I think my supplier got it slightly wrong this time  :lolb:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Allen Smithee on May 24, 2015, 10:45:28 AM
A friend of mine realised he'd suffered a similar piece of mis-communication when his slightly deaf fairy godmother presented him with a virtuoso piano player who was only a foot and a half tall.

AS
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 24, 2015, 11:16:27 AM
Gently he slide in :embarassed:

He's in, he's in  :whoohoo:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on May 24, 2015, 11:24:52 AM
Jo

Must say he looks very smart in his new long term home , but he is to clean :Director:


Do they need leveling setting up I hate the term leveling I always think of it as setting up to be true to itself not twisted , yes they are better level as it can make setups easier but to me it's more important on a mill

A glass or two of wine and some panatone bread for you both  :drinking-41: :drinking-41:

Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: BillTodd on May 24, 2015, 03:12:11 PM
Quote
Do they need leveling setting up

The lathe is mounted on three elastomer mounts (two at the head end) so that any twist in the base (from manufacture I guess- 'cos these are made from 5mm steel sheet and are  pretty rigid)  cannot  effect the bed. I have mine sloping slightly to the rear to help speed the oil coolant back to the tank.

Jo, That looks nice there , plenty of light from the window (while it's clean :-)) 
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 24, 2015, 03:17:59 PM
He's all set up so that his coolant goes back into his tank as required in the manual  ;)

Ok  :shrug: we had a bit of a problem with his tailstock, because it wouldn't go in far enough back, it wasn't ejecting properly. Having taken it apart and examined shaft it was found that his two nuts on the end were a little too far on. Having adjusted his nuts he is being a good boy and ejecting properly.

He's been swarfing at 2300 rpm, variable headstock and independent variable feed rates  8)

Sorry too much of his swarf porn is not good for anyone  :ShakeHead: you will have to excuse us we have model engines to make  :whoohoo:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on May 24, 2015, 03:27:36 PM
Well at least being able to use more than one speed like you tended to do on the PZ should be a good thing, is he a lot quieter?
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 24, 2015, 04:16:59 PM
is he a lot quieter?

With the hum of the rotary converter running in the background you only notice any real noise above 2500 rpm and that is caused by the panel on the electric box vibrating where the key had to be drilled out  :-\ We are looking for a new lock or I might make something.

I must try to make sure I only run at the appropriate speed for what I am doing. I can see why Hardinge owners machine at what I consider very high speeds, it is just too easy to do  :shrug:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 26, 2015, 10:43:13 AM
We have been busy learning about each other and I have discovered Mr Silky has a sense of humour   :facepalm: As you can see he has carefully put the pin to drive the dog just out of reach  :-\


A quick bush turned up on the Prazimat so I didn't have to disturb the set up and I discovered that using the Prazimat for turning is no fun any more  :ShakeHead:   

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on May 26, 2015, 11:52:37 AM
Are the two slots in the drive plate not so you can use a cranked leg dog?

Did he come with a rear splash guard? seems things could get a bit messy when the pump is being used
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on May 26, 2015, 11:59:01 AM
Jo

That's better now he's a mucky pup , Glad all the work escaped moths have been worth it , yes quality will always out . But hey the prazy is a nice lathe and has been a faithful friend


Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 26, 2015, 02:43:14 PM
Are the two slots in the drive plate not so you can use a cranked leg dog?

Yes if I had one that gripped that small a diameter, my cranked legged one is larger.

Did he come with a rear splash guard? seems things could get a bit messy when the pump is being used

No he did not come with the splash guard. I have considered making one but if I did I would not be able to use the shelf behind as his overflow area for his pitiful small number of Swiss tool holders, clearly he needs some more as there is still space left ;D

The Prazimat is a nice lathe which is why it is staying, there are a number of things a hobby lathe does differently to a industrial lathe which can be handy, also it might be set up as a capstan :naughty:

And did I mention that my design for the lever feed tailstock on the Prazimat would work nicely on Mr Silky  :embarassed:

Jo

P.S. that little rumble has gone on high speeds: Inside when I check the belt tension I spotted that one of the plastic conduits was too close to the rear cover so it has been secured with a zip clip like the others are  :).
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on May 26, 2015, 03:15:00 PM
Jo

A grumble rumble free lathe is a joy use , he is liking being used and stretching his legs


Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: steamer on May 26, 2015, 03:24:32 PM
Jo,

Mr Silky should have a rear splash guard that slides up and down vertically with a lock screw.   With a handle, the door slides vertical, and you lock the door in the up position with a large wing nut.  That allows you to get a trash barrel right next to the back of the machine, and it's an easy sweep to get all the chips in the chip pan out  and clean up.   Then a quick twist of the wing nut while holding on the guard, and then lower it down into a sash...and your all done.


Once of the best chip management systems I've seen on a manual lathe.   makes it real easy to keep clean.
No more reaching under the bed, or coolant getting by sliding drawers and all over the floor....

Dave
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 26, 2015, 04:07:15 PM
Dave, sadly getting to the back of him is not easy in his window seat so the swarf will have to come out the front. :shrug:

Who every designed Mr Silky appreciated knobs as much as I do  :embarassed: but it quickly became apparent that they had missed one  :( The tailstock locking lever just didn't feel right so from my collection came a nice big knob of the right size to get hold of.

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: steamer on May 26, 2015, 04:09:39 PM
Dave, sadly getting to the back of him is not easy in his window seat so the swarf will have to come out the front. :shrug:

Who every designed Mr Silky appreciated knobs as much as I do  :embarassed: but it quickly became apparent that they had missed one  :( The tailstock locking lever just didn't feel right so from my collection came a nice big knob of the right size to get hold of.

Jo



 :lolb:    Every Hardinge I've ever used had that knob on it!....you're in good company apparently!

Dave

Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 26, 2015, 04:41:11 PM
I just checked his parts list: they have knobless tailstocks as standard  ::).

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: steamer on May 26, 2015, 04:45:33 PM
I just checked his parts list: they have knobless tailstocks as standard  ::).

Jo


Yup...but apparently, knowledgeable machinists on at least two continents think THAT  knob is required...... regardless!  8)

Dave
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on May 26, 2015, 05:15:53 PM
Its because you spend too much time stroking and carresing these smooth shapley machines it makes your hands all soft. Get a chinaman and once you have got used to his rough edges and drawn blood on them a few times your hands will be tough enough not to need ball handles :Lol:
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on May 26, 2015, 06:40:54 PM
I'm with you Jason, probably didn't need a ball,  she just wanted something to fondle and caress  (or squeeze the crap out of ). Jo, he does look stately in his permanent home, nothing like a lathe with a view  :wine1:

Big E
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: BillTodd on May 26, 2015, 11:58:30 PM
Hmmm, the hlv-h tailstock kills my shoulder (flat-spotted it in a bike accident) . If you lock the tailstock down hard, it'll suck itself to the bed and refuse to budge later.

Be careful how hard you tug that knob jo ;-)
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 27, 2015, 06:24:35 AM
If you lock the tailstock down hard, it'll suck itself to the bed and refuse to budge later.

Be careful how hard you tug that knob jo ;-)

I had noticed that little trick about the tailstock. I was not sure if it was a feature of having oil under it. I found a hide mallet is teaching it some manners when he tries that  ;).

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on May 27, 2015, 07:16:29 AM
Oh no we have a lathe beater in our midst better notify the government dept that desks with this abuse

Sorry Jo could not resist



Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 27, 2015, 12:21:35 PM
When you buy a second hand machine tool the wear and tear on the paint tells much. Unlike the servicing stickers which claimed that Mr Silky had been serviced in 2011, based on the contents of the coolant tank I will let you make your own decisions on the quality of that servicing  ::)

His tailstock had some strange damage marks  :headscratch: which were not due to someone leaning on the tailstock as that would cause a gentle wearing of the paint rather than paint stopped abruptly like it had been hit  :hellno:

So there was I happily having turned another crankshaft between centres and I went to extract the centre....... now as you will recall some  :censored: servicer assembled the tailstock wrong and he was incapable of ejecting until I did what was necessary and we put things right again  :embarassed: So the rotary centre I was using doesn't have a long enough tang to eject so I found myself thinking now if I just got my mallet and gave it a tap on the top  :o But that might be is probably what caused that damage on the paint work  :slap:.


So again more poor maintenance which in industry would have meant that he would have not been the first choice of machine to use so it would point towards him having an easy life before he came to live with me  :mischief:.

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: sco on May 27, 2015, 12:40:23 PM
Still struggling to understand why you would hit the very definition of quality and precision with a hammer!

Simon.
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Allen Smithee on May 27, 2015, 01:24:27 PM
Still struggling to understand why you would hit the very definition of quality and precision with a hammer!

But enough about my wife - I 'd like to know why you'd hit a *lathe* with a hammer...

AS

Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 27, 2015, 01:48:09 PM
A mallet is a special type of hammer, do not confuse it with a steel hammer  :hellno:

A raw hide mallet is used on delicate machinery, for assembling things and in the jewellery trade. Frequently they are used in our workshops to provide a "soft" blow to free stuck parts  ;).

You will also find copper mallets being used in the workshop: Copper mallets provide a much sharper blow and are used on machinery to apply force to parts with a reduced risk of damaging them as the head is softer than what is being hit, for instance when you use a Thor mallet against a piece of work to secure it on parallels. But when it comes to softer materials like aluminium it is normal to use a steel spreader (parallel) between the copper mallet and the work to spread the impact  :).

Jo

Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: steamer on May 27, 2015, 01:56:35 PM
I admit that Samantha Bell has the same problem.   To solve this, I added a bolt to the end of the tooling to make it long enough to eject...

I tapped mine out with a hickory hammer handle.....I would call that a mallet...or a dead blow....just not late for dinner.......it's fine.

Dave
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: BillTodd on May 27, 2015, 02:16:29 PM
Quote
So again more poor maintenance which in industry would have meant that he would have not been the first choice of machine to use so it would point towards him having an easy life before he came to live with me  :mischief
:.

Maintenance in industry tends  to be fix it when you can, fix it in a hurry or fix it 'cos it's broken.

As you say, the paint damage it a good indicator that the tailstock ejector was not working (common problem) .

The single most useful wear indicator on hardinge's seems to be the carriage wheel backlash , the pinion and bearing are heavily loaded and not really upto the job (IMHO) so if the lathe has had a lot of use the gear and bearings will be obviously knackered . You can carefully slide your finger down the side of the carriage and feel the pinion (sort of hlv prostate examination) by wiggling the hand wheel you can assess the bearing wear.

Another common problem is the centre sheave on the intermediate pulley. It is not well lubricated and can get so bad that so that the whole pulley wobbles.

Bill


Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 28, 2015, 04:02:04 PM
I can remember thinking that the HLV-H is a big old beastie but today I went back and had a play with a HLV: Isn't it cute  :embarassed:

I have also borrowed a tapered faceplate as someone would like my threaded Hardinge face plate and I have offered to do a one to one swop if they come up with one before I need to use the Colchester again and loose the set-up for cutting the taper ;)

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: steamer on June 07, 2015, 02:25:45 PM
How's he doing?!

I remember one of his American brothers doing a pin for one of our products....I saw the print....Harden to 60Rc....pretty damn hard.    Then I looked at the stock....it was hardened dowel pins!.....I looked at the operator, and said I want to see this!....

These HLV's were set up with CNC......     He loaded a pin into the 5C collet, set the collet home, touched off, and hit the run button.


It turned that pin like it was Aluminum.....no fuss...no complaining.....

He's a keepah!    :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on June 07, 2015, 04:44:40 PM
We are getting on extremely well thank you Dave :embarassed:

Sorry but I have had to put a ban on anyone else playing with him when they visit: its for their own good  :shrug: I don't want him have the same bad effect on them as me playing with Eric's older HLV did on me last year :-[. Even poor Eric when he visited on Friday found he couldn't resist him and wouldn't leave until he had had a play  :LittleDevil:

Yes he is most definitely a keeper  :drinking-41:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on June 19, 2015, 02:26:39 PM
Bill, could you confirm if this live centre is a Hardinge one. It reads "Live Centre Model -2MA"

For some reason it has a thread down its centre, so I am thinking someone has taken the end off of it  :Doh:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: BillTodd on June 19, 2015, 03:16:02 PM
It might be. However hardinge normally put their name on their tools so... (it might be a UK made one with that spelling - 'centre' rather  than the US 'center')

This is my HDC for comparison:
 
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on June 19, 2015, 03:36:17 PM
OT

Can the learned populas answere me a question

It has always puzzled me for many a long year live centre bearings ?

The lathe manufactures fit very hight precision bearings to the headstock costing humugous amount of dosh , then we support the other end in a live centre with ( maybe not a Hardinge one ) lesser quality bearings

Bearings mind I am talking about the likes of Hardinge , Colchester lathes and other that use top end bearings 

I bet I am wrong in this assumption but surly the precision/ quality of finish in only as good as the weakest link

I await with baited breath to but shot down for my assumption

Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on June 19, 2015, 03:42:00 PM
Hi Stuart  :),

Last time I looked the front angular contact bearing race replacement for my 3MT Lunzer live centre was just over £350.

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on June 19, 2015, 03:46:20 PM
Thanks Bill I will keep my eyes open for one of those.

Mr Silky came with his own 2MT Lunzer centre as well as that one of dubious parentage so I might keep him to that one for now.

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on June 19, 2015, 03:47:27 PM
Well that sort of goes some way to answer my question but there is still a large difference in the price/spec evan at that price

I was once told that to be truly accurate a live centre was not so good but a normal centre non bearing type was better , but what do I know , can not ask him as he is making chips in the sky


Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on June 19, 2015, 03:53:05 PM
I was once told that to be truly accurate a live centre was not so good but a normal centre non bearing type was better , but what do I know , can not ask him as he is making chips in the sky

That is correct, and don't forget the anti scuffing on the nose ;)

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on June 19, 2015, 04:05:18 PM
Thanks Jo

I am still using a tin with a screw top marked Rocol ASP that was my dads I've had it for 30 years and it's still half full , but by ek it's black stuff makes graphite easy to get off your  mits it wunner come off even with orange swarfega it get Ito your pores

It's like a very heavy grease loaded with graphite

But it's good stuff

Stuart

Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: BillTodd on June 19, 2015, 04:14:26 PM
To be PC the live centre fits in to the spindle end and is usually soft, the dead centre fits the tailstock and is either hardened or low friction revolving type.

It would be hard to beat a well lubricated hardened centre for accuracy.

Btw if you're turning steel , use a metal loaded grease e.g molybdenum, copper,zinc antiseize or white lead if you can get it.It'll stop the two like metals of the work and centre gauling.



Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on June 19, 2015, 04:54:38 PM
Thanks for the input Bill

You know how it is some obscure thought jumps into your head and it just needs scratching

But as usual the forum members help get the itch under control

Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on June 19, 2015, 05:03:33 PM
Same stuff as me Stuart  ;)

Btw if you're turning steel , use a metal loaded grease e.g molybdenum, copper,zinc antiseize or white lead if you can get it.It'll stop the two like metals of the work and centre gauling.

Rocol ASP = Molybdenum Disulphate which is good to 450 degrees C and oodles of pressure. If you get tempted to use oil or grease be warned that they can't do such high temperatures or pressures. You need the silly pressures to get rid of slack between the centre and the work piece  ;).

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on June 19, 2015, 05:55:20 PM
Jo

I believe it was used by the fitters at the iron works where dad worked as a fitter and latterly Forman fitter as a antisieze when they built the spinning machines for the pipe plant up to 72 inch ductile pipes

But I would bet the machists used white lead as red lead paint was every where

Sorry to pull your thread of topic but as you know one comment sparks a question

Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on July 13, 2015, 08:03:46 PM
As I needed to get the Colchester back in service I had to bow to my Master's demands and finish off his back plates for him.  It was an interesting experience  :facepalm2:

On the first plate forgot to mark how far the master had to fit in to the taper, took it out of the three jaw and when I tried it on Mr Silky's nose the taper was too deep so I had to reduce the back of the plate a bit. Next time I marked the required taper depth on the master from an existing chuck ::) Then when we got to the threaded faceplate I  :facepalm: missed the fact that the hole in the back was too shallow, took it off the Colchester's small faceplate, tried fitting it and found myself having to re-centre it on the Colchester's faceplate to machine the taper deeper  :-[

Drilling the holes for the locating pins  :paranoia:

Then the locating pins had to be made, of course the little ones should be 10-32 which in the countersunk button headed variety I could not acquire  :ShakeHead: So please don't tell him I won't live it down but he has had to put up with 2BA button allen screws which have had a countersink turned on the back.

He was also given an old original chuck with tapered standard jaws which was loose on the nose :'( thankfully this is a spare chuck and once I realised that the locating pin was under diameter and made a replacement the correct diameter it now fits snuggly on his nose and the outside jaws while they are a bit loose side to side in the slots they do hold true.

I am pleased to say all the back plates passed their independent inspection yesterday when they were mounted up for the first time and there was no run out  ;D However then I tried the faceplate and found 0.1mm run out  :wallbang: When I tried another original tapered Hardinge faceplate that Mr Silky had been lent it was even worse at 0.2mm out  :o

To finish off for now I have given him a new hoarding area for his chucks and I am sure it won't be long before the desire for a 4 jaw self centring chuck gets the better of him. I think he already knows there is one in the workshop but does he really want a blue quality TOS chuck  :shrug:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on July 13, 2015, 08:44:55 PM
Jo

All face plates should be tried up to the spindle  that they are used on ,I am sure he would like to have his done so it is in keeping with the rest of his acesories, we cannot have him turned out with his face on skew wift

Well done with the back plates

Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on July 13, 2015, 09:55:46 PM
Thanks Stuart,

Next decision: does he need a Bison 4 jaw self centring chuck with its nice 32mm bore or should I just move over that spare  TOS chuck with its 25mm bore  :thinking:

Other than Toolmex-Bison and TOS are there any other reasonable quality chuck manufactureres I might have missed? I have not found any Pratt 4 jaw scroll chucks. A new Bison chuck is only £250 and I am beginning to understand his need   :embarassed:


And before anyone asks no I do not let Chinese or Indian chucks in my workshop  :ShakeHead:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on July 14, 2015, 04:01:36 PM
Jo

With chucks be careful, cast iron body ones may not have a safe working speed high enough to for himself.

I have only Bison chucks ( note the Warco 5 c thing was well  :censored:) so it was given away . The bison 5C is rated at 6K the three jaw at 4.5 K same as the independent

Keep your eyes open for steel bodies they have a higher speed rating .

Now before others ask it's not just the body it's the griping force that the jaws exert , they hav mass and they are subject to centrifugal or is is centripetal force which will reduce the grip as the speed goes up .

We don,t want him letting go

Yes I am aware that my chucks are over kill as my lathe tops out at 3K RPM  but that's my choice and has been said before the quality remains after the price is forgotten

The Bison chucks are all ser. Numbered  and are marked with the speed rating
I use Rotagrip for them usual disclaimer
Not the cheapest but it's my choice

Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on July 14, 2015, 05:27:48 PM
Sorry to hear you got one of the bad register 5C Chinese chucks   :censored:

That Bison I am looking at is only good for 3200 rpm while the spare Blue TOS one is safe to 4500  :thinking: Of course larger chucks have lower maximum speeds.

Rotogrip are very good but in this cut throat world someone has under cut them by two bottles of good  :wine1: and free next day delivery  8)

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on July 14, 2015, 06:15:27 PM
Jo

yep you have to go where your purse dictates , but as I cannot drink  :wine1: because of meds. it is no use to me  :hello:

as you say the bigger the diameter ( unless you pay mega buck ) the lower the speed rating , I think its more to due to the jaws holding power that the body , i do know its a concern in CNC manufacturing , I saw a graph which replaced grip to speed was very enlightening

next thing he will be demanding is a AC unit to keep him comfy don't want him to get sweaty do you  :stir:

Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: ths on July 14, 2015, 10:03:49 PM
Hi Jo, bad luck that this is so far away, and I hope the link works. Cheers, Hugh.

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=171851455428&globalID=EBAY-AU
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on July 15, 2015, 07:24:20 AM
Thanks Hugh, I can't see it staying that cheap.

I was lucky that Mr Silky came with a four jaw independent chuck as well as a reasonable three jaw. For some reason once their locating pins wear these chucks turn up cheap: I can only assume that like that old three jaw when the locating pin get sloppy in its groove they no longer tighten onto the nose and people think the chuck is no good any longer. I would have thought that Hardinge owners knew better but then again having seen his coolant tank and the wrongly assembled tailstock   :ShakeHead:

Following extensive discussions last night (about 30 seconds) on the benefits of buying Mr Silky his Bison 4 jaw scroll chuck the consensus is that it is probably the best way forward and I should move that nearly new Hardinge three jaw over to him and the Prazimat can keep its four jaw TOS scroll chuck.

Did I ever mention how expensive it is having a man around the place ::)

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: ths on July 15, 2015, 10:28:21 AM



Did I ever mention how expensive it is having a man around the place ::)

Jo

Pray, tell.

I'll let you know how much it goes for, only a few hours left. Hugh.
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on July 15, 2015, 11:26:45 AM

Pray, tell.

:thinking: Do I get the idea you want to know how much Mr Silky has cost me....Tell me when you are sitting down.......I would recomend a strong drink

Jo
Title: A new friend
Post by: ths on July 15, 2015, 11:41:59 AM
It's never the set up costs Jo, it's the running and maintenance that pushes up the bills.
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on July 15, 2015, 11:48:27 AM
:o I hope not, touch wood, none of my other ex industrial machines have needed any repairs over the year I have owned them.  Other than that static converter contactor going and burning out the Colchester motor  >:( which luckily I had a spare motor for  ;D

The Myford cost me a few pennies over the years ::)

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on July 15, 2015, 12:19:09 PM
Jo

I will guess about £5K


Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on July 15, 2015, 12:58:35 PM
I will guess about £5K

Stuart

:lolb: That was my original budget it covered the basic machine and the rotary converter. Then there was: Delivery charge, 30m 3ph cable, Multifix holders, faceplate, fuse board/trips, DRO, back plate castings, synthetic coolant and various catering functions. After that lot what is another £250 to the bill  :shrug:

But as my friend who convinced me to buy him said they are better than :censored: and he was right  ;D

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on July 15, 2015, 02:09:16 PM
But the quality remains after the price is forgotten


Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Allen Smithee on July 15, 2015, 03:23:52 PM
That's an amusing concept - the idea that my wife would ever forget the price of something *I* bought...

PDR
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: ths on July 15, 2015, 09:14:23 PM
It went for AU$ 51.00 (£24.06).

I actually wasn't fishing for a price, as that's entirely your business. However should he prove to be a 'real' man, then he'll pull his weight, which is this case is considerable.

The amount spent on catering boggles my mind - unless he came with membership to a very exclusive club for which you had the pleasure of catering the AGM.

Nonetheless, in a perfect world, we would all have Hardings.

Hugh.



Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on July 15, 2015, 09:26:32 PM
No worry Hugh, Mr Silky is one of those lathes that I would not expect to have any problem getting my investment back, not that I ever intend on doing so he's a keeper  ;D

:embarassed: I did have to check what that chuck sold for, that was a bargain for someone.

I suspect the catering cost is on going but thankfully Mr Silky is not demanding in that way, this evening all he wanted to do was to machine his new back plates ready so he can appreciate his other 2 chucks he is looking forward to getting before the weekend  8)

I really should do another video of him throwing off blue hot swarf while making his happy quiet rumble (from his belts) but you wouldn't hear him above the rotary converter on the other side of the workshop not that that is particularly noisy but the camera mike does pick it up :shrug:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on July 17, 2015, 06:13:46 PM
The slightly shabby looking box the Bison came in had rusty staples on it, not a good sign,  Having taken it out of the box there was a couple of signs that the chuck itself was trying to rust   >:(  :Director:

The Bison is dated 1999, so it has been siting around for 16 years in a damp store room which probably accounts for the condition of the box. Comparison time the 'new' Bison, the TOS and a 3 jaw Hardinge  8):

1, Bison jaw width 20mm, TOS 16mm and Hardinge = 14.3mm
2, Flat on the end of the jaw (minimum square/circular it can hold) Bison = 2.5mm, TOS = 1mm, Hardinge = 2.5mm
3, Depth of teeth: Bison = 2.5mm, TOS = 3.5mm, Hardinge = 2.75mm
4, Central hole: Bison = 32mm, TOS = 25mm, Hardinge = 38.1mm  8)

The Bison scroll is coarser than either of the other two chucks. Only the Bison has a greasing point, something the yellow quality TOS chucks also have. And  you would have thought Bison knew the old rule that hole 0 should be always be at the same point as the label of a chuck so that you always use that key hole :ShakeHead:

If only the UPS man had turned up 8 hours earlier  :-\

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on July 17, 2015, 06:58:57 PM
Jo

Looking good yes I have found the Bison,s are a bit chunky on the jaws , good thing and a bad thing if you get my drift

But the more you give him the more he will want ❤️💕


Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on July 17, 2015, 07:28:28 PM
Good thing: more gripping surface (maybe), Bad thing: minimum size it will grip  :( but smaller stuff can go in the 5Cs, except that you cannot buy square collets under 3mm  >:( 

Stuart; What grease are you using on your Bisons? I had been using graphite on other chucks but both the Hardinge and the Bison show signs of a white grease  :headscratch:

But the more you give him the more he will want ❤️💕

:shrug: I know I have always been a bit of a sucker whenever the hormones take over I have to give them everything they want however much it costs me. At least he hasn't (yet) cost me anything like the last time this happened  :facepalm2:.

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on July 17, 2015, 08:08:37 PM
could treat him to some of this

http://www.rotagriponline.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypagerotagrip.tpl&product_id=5177&category_id=2&keyword=grease&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=29
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on July 17, 2015, 08:13:00 PM
:noidea: That looks to be a cheap version of Molyslip.

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on July 17, 2015, 08:17:13 PM
Not if its £30 for the 16oz tube
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on July 17, 2015, 08:29:54 PM
Yep Rocol ASP 100grams = £45, more is relatively cheaper so the packaging is very expensive ;)

I thought it was illegal to sell stuff only quoting inferior measurement these days  :headscratch:.

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on July 17, 2015, 08:33:35 PM
They give it in grams as well
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on July 17, 2015, 08:48:52 PM
Oh yes: 453.6grams = £30 or 100grams of Rocol = £46 so its a bargain 

I might use my Rocol  ;) except that it is not white  :headscratch:

Jo

Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on July 17, 2015, 09:03:28 PM
Jo

Same as Jason has posted but only as a biannual service, strip, clean and re grease very sparingly else you will be wearing it ( it's not good as a moisturiser )


Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: stvy on July 17, 2015, 09:14:25 PM
Good thing: more gripping surface (maybe), Bad thing: minimum size it will grip  :( but smaller stuff can go in the 5Cs, except that you cannot buy square collets under 3mm  >:( 

Jo,

Hardinge offer from stock square 5c down to 2mm, and 3/64". They will also make any size you want to order.

I'm a big fan of crawford and hardinge brand 5c collets. Not cheap but............ :-) Hardinge are globally respected for their collets. Crawford were so good they used to make them for hardinge.

I look forward to more updates on this thread. Keep it coming!

Steve
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on July 18, 2015, 07:38:59 AM
I look forward to more updates on this thread. Keep it coming!

Steve

Hi Steve, When I first read your post I was going to reply that this should be the last little bit but then I wandered out to give Mr Silky his first stroke of the morning  :embarassed:

Now I realise there is so much more he needs  8) Once the two chucks are mounted up he still needs at least one travelling steady, then there is his faceplate that has strange Unified threads all over it which I need to think about how I am going to mount things and of course there is also the need for some Tee nuts to fit in its slots.

I think he may have all the chucks he needs, unless someone can point me at something else he might want  :mischief: 

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on July 18, 2015, 07:56:47 AM
Best play safe and get him a 6-jaw for any large hollow work :LittleDevil:

With all these multi cylinder engines comming up there will be a lot of repetative work so maybe a combination chuck? holds like an independant 4-jaw but will open and close with a single key so you don't have to clock the parts each time.

Also what about one of those 3-jaws on an eccentric backplate, similar to above in that you can offset the chuck once and then hold a number of parts without having to clock each one true.

Don't think you will be able to buy any more castings for a while with him needing that lot :stir:
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on July 18, 2015, 08:24:02 AM
Best play safe and get him a 6-jaw for any large hollow work :LittleDevil:

I was keeping my eyes open for some of those step chucks to do exactly that  ;)

Quote
Don't think you will be able to buy any more castings for a while with him needing that lot :stir:

:headscratch: And it was only yesterday that someone was trying to encourage me to look at that Bridgeport that G&M have got :ShakeHead:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on July 18, 2015, 11:57:15 AM
Jo

But oh my it does look nice its shiny and has a dro although you would need a better head end the latest ones are nice ( don't ask  :stir:) but that would put £700 on the bill , but on reflection (pun intended) Mr Silky may just get jealous , then he would need those chucks Jason has recommended to keep him sweet.

What with Mr Silky ,Mr Sexy and Mr Shiney , all those men in your life which way would you turn .

That BP is very nice looking with its chrome ways at El

Poor poss ( Ilkeston for purse ) is going to look a bit thin I fear put a cha...y belt on it for its own good


Stuart

Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on July 18, 2015, 01:31:22 PM
Just had a look on G&M's site, looks like Mr Bling would make a good stable mate for those other men in your life, I'm sure you could while away many a cold winters night buffing his shiny head! tables look good too.

I thought you were after something more substantial than the Bridgeport?

Oh and there is all that R8 tooling you will have to buy :ShakeHead:
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on July 18, 2015, 02:20:25 PM
:ShakeHead: Its table is too small, an R8 is only good for tickling things and I am not looking for a flexible friend: I am looking for a real man milling machine that can do a decent amount of work without complaining  8)

When the right one turns up the Poss is ready and waiting  ;) The deadline is to try to find one before the planned retirement date  :whoohoo:

Jo

Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on July 18, 2015, 03:24:43 PM
Well that will give you plenty of time then a YL of your standing  :stir:


Now where is my tin hat and glacier jacket , I am 80% deaf so the tabs wil not suffer  and I have had adult mumps so ok there


Stuart runs for cover
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on July 18, 2015, 03:47:57 PM
Knowing the contents of your casting mountain is there a reall need for anything larger/more rigid. Plenty of people have built 6" traction engines on a bridgeport so even with the 42" table it should handle your 2" ploughing engine my X3 did my 2" Fowler and will also do my Superba if I ever decide to make it.

It woud also save all that inuendo about Beavers :-X
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on July 18, 2015, 03:59:23 PM
Well that will give you plenty of time then a YL of your standing  :stir:

I said nothing about working to national retirement age  :hellno: I am currently practising towards my retirement while attending my place of employment and being paid for it  :wine1: 

You are right Jason I don't need a larger milling machine but then you tell me that you are happy to do everything on only one (Chinese) lathe  ::)

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on July 18, 2015, 05:07:19 PM
Both the Bison and the spare Hardinge chuck are up ready for Mr Silky to use them  ;D

A couple more observations:

The Cast Iron back plates from RDG are adequate but have very coarse grain :(

The chuck handle for the Bison was poorly finished on the two handle ends but as Mr Silky's has balls it is not a problem.

So having tried both a Bison and a TOS four jaw SC which one would I buy again in the future  :thinking:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Alan Haisley on July 18, 2015, 10:10:00 PM
...
I really should do another video of him throwing off blue hot swarf while making his happy quiet rumble (from his belts) but you wouldn't hear him above the rotary converter on the other side of the workshop not that that is particularly noisy but the camera mike does pick it up :shrug:

Jo

Might try some glass fiber batting in line from the mike to the converter  :thinking:

Alan
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on July 29, 2015, 08:03:12 PM
When I first saw Mr Silky we noted that he was sending smoke signals out of his carriage motor but the motor was not getting hot  :headscratch: The motor was one of the bits I had not disassembled and as it had been making a loose whirling noise I decided it was about time  ::)

What I found was a well carbonised commutator, flecks of old carbon inside the housing and a layer of oil in the bottom  >:( The commutator was cleaned up using a fibre glass brush and the oil/carbon remains encouraged out with a poke followed by some brake cleaner. It made a horrible mess  :ShakeHead:

On reassembly and starting it up it was still making that whirling noise but as there was nothing loose so I will put it down to being its correct operating noise. Then I wound it up and BANG smoke every where  :paranoia: Having let the fumes out I convinced myself it must have been the last of the brake cleaner getting excited by a spark and tried again.  :zap:






Yes I seem to have better speed control. There is no way any one would want to feed at the speed it could go up to :hellno: but it will also now go sooooooo slow  8) A new set of brushes would not go amiss, I might need to find a supplier of carbon I have seen the large random numbers that the Hardinge spares supplier tries it on with   :thinking:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Bluechip on July 29, 2015, 08:31:32 PM
I've got the odd spare motor brush         :Lol:  , what size are they ??

Dave
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on July 29, 2015, 08:42:52 PM
 ;D Thanks Dave,

As Mr Silky is an old imperialist I make them to be 5/32" by 7/32". I think they start out rather longer than they are now  ::)

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Bluechip on July 29, 2015, 09:28:14 PM
As you might imagine, despite the apparent abundance of choice there are precisely 4 tatty ones 5/32" x 7/32" ..  bugger ... most are metric ... ie. 4mm x 5mm, 8mm x 3mm etc.

However, all is not lost. As 5/32" x 7/32" is, as near as dammit, 4mm x 5.5mm what about this geezer in sunny HK IIRC ... I've had brush caps, components etc. from him no complaint whatsoever .. these look a bit like yours ...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Pairs-Motor-Carbon-Brushes-Electric/dp/B0094FHFV4/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1438201209&sr=8-6&keywords=motor+brushes+4mm

Dave

Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on July 29, 2015, 09:30:00 PM
 :slap: 9/32" by 7/32" sorry Dave I get confused by imperial measurements these days  :-[

I've ordered some 24mm by 8mm by 6mm and will look at milling them down to the right size  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Don1966 on July 29, 2015, 11:53:19 PM
Jo from the look at your armature commutator, it looks like the solder has started to melt and come out of the bars. The armature must be running hot. One thing you need to do is to use a hacksaw blade and grind it to the thickness of the mica in between the commutator bars and use it to undercut the mica. The mica is harder then the copper and will make the brushes arc. Use the blade to clean between the bars and cut the mica below the copper. Inspect the bars carefully to see if and connections have come unsoldered.
If the armature is shorted when your done cleaning and reassembled it, it will pull heavy current and the brushes will arc. Amp check the motor in operation to be sure it is working properly.

Regards Don
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Bluechip on July 30, 2015, 08:20:59 AM
OK, let's go metric then .. these are 5.48mm x 7.09mm x 24mm-ish.

Should be 5.56mm x 7.14mm eh ??????????????

Doubtful if brushes are made to nanotad accuracy ??

I don't think you would have much success milling brushes, we took them down by rubbing on 'Open-Coat' garnet paper. Very quick and very mucky.

Have look at the commutator where the brushes don't track, this will indicate whether the comm. should be undercut or flush. Some are flush.

The binding cord varnish does look a bit hot and bothered, could just be the brushes running hot but Don's advice to look at the solder is sound.   

Anyway, bacon sarnie time, brushes .... want 'em ??

Dave
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on July 30, 2015, 05:13:43 PM
.... want 'em ??

Dave

Yes please  :whoohoo:

PM with my address on its way :naughty:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on July 30, 2015, 05:41:25 PM
Jo from the look at your armature commutator, it looks like the solder has started to melt and come out of the bars. The armature must be running hot. One thing you need to do is to use a hacksaw blade and grind it to the thickness of the mica in between the commutator bars and use it to undercut the mica. The mica is harder then the copper and will make the brushes arc. Use the blade to clean between the bars and cut the mica below the copper. Inspect the bars carefully to see if and connections have come unsoldered.
If the armature is shorted when your done cleaning and reassembled it, it will pull heavy current and the brushes will arc. Amp check the motor in operation to be sure it is working properly.

Regards Don

Thanks Don I will pull it apart again and check the mica. It had been having a little sparkle I assume it was a little more of that carbon having become dry/loose after the break cleaner went :zap:

Jo.
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on July 31, 2015, 08:21:15 AM
I did a bit of undercutting and reassembled the motor. The only sparkles are now under the brushes as it rotates  8).

I had it confirmed that those brushes would have started out much, much longer.

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on July 31, 2015, 09:12:07 AM
Jo

can you get at the brushes with the motor assembled ?

if you can then you can bed them in with a little bit of fine "Sandpaper "  the stuff the wood chucks use not under any circumstances use emery it will embed into the copper

or shop around for a product call "com stick"  its a stick of a chalk like mild abrasive you touch on the com when under power ( they are a insulator so its ok ) that will bed the brushes in PDQ

small sparks under the brushes are OK when they go round with the com its not good

Note I did two years during my apprenticeship in the stator and armature winding dept

Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Bluechip on July 31, 2015, 09:41:01 AM
.... want 'em ??

Dave

Yes please  :whoohoo:

PM with my address on its way :naughty:

Jo

Brushes on way 1st Class post @ 09:01    :ThumbsUp:

Pole position in Post Office ....   :whoohoo:  Not stuck behind all the  Giro-clutching  :censored: .

Dave
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on July 31, 2015, 10:27:42 AM
can you get at the brushes with the motor assembled ?

No but there is an inspection hole that you can see the commutator as it rotates  :insane:


small sparks under the brushes are OK when they go round with the com its not good

That was what it was doing yesterday   :facepalm2: before I disassembled it and cleaned it a second time.


Brushes on way 1st Class post @ 09:01    :ThumbsUp:

Pole position in Post Office ....   :whoohoo:  Not stuck behind all the  Giro-clutching  :censored: .

Dave

 ;D Thanks Dave. 

:headscratch: I can never understand why they want to go every week to the Post office why don't they get it paid into the bank, or maybe they are worried their other halves might see the money as their tool/casting allowance  :LittleDevil:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Bluechip on July 31, 2015, 11:34:38 AM
can you get at the brushes with the motor assembled ?

No but there is an inspection hole that you can see the commutator as it rotates  :insane:


small sparks under the brushes are OK when they go round with the com its not good

That was what it was doing yesterday   :facepalm2: before I disassembled it and cleaned it a second time.


Brushes on way 1st Class post @ 09:01    :ThumbsUp:

Pole position in Post Office ....   :whoohoo:  Not stuck behind all the  Giro-clutching  :censored: .

Dave

 ;D Thanks Dave. 

:headscratch: I can never understand why they want to go every week to the Post office why don't they get it paid into the bank, or maybe they are worried their other halves might see the money as their tool/casting allowance  :LittleDevil:

Jo

A bank account needs an address IIRC. I doubt if a tatty collection of bin-liners and Tesco bags cuts the mustard re: the 'Fixed Abode' bit.  Tools/Castings implies 'WORK'. Familiar to them only as the likely cause of  PTSD, therefore to be avoided like the plague...

Dave

Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on July 31, 2015, 11:45:10 AM
 ;)

Following a discussion with Muddled Engineer, we have agreed that the oil probably sneaked into Mr Silky's carriage motor when someone over filled the carriage with oil  :ShakeHead:

I am very impressed with Mr Silky's lubrication system. His little plunger at the back of the carriage is doing its job nicely, I thought it would only lubricate the saddle and the cross slide but his top slide is always nicely oily as well. His first stroke of each evening is a gentle pull of his plunger  :mischief:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: BillTodd on July 31, 2015, 12:00:41 PM
Quote
when someone over filled the carriage with oil

It's easily done . As you know, the oil level window sits just below the filler hole , you can't be sure how much ATF you have to put in the things until it's too much.

P.S. they usually drip oil from the handle dial area if they have ever been over filled (it sets up a syphon action).

Bill
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on August 01, 2015, 10:59:46 AM
The brushes arrived this morning and are already fitted   :cartwheel:

Mr Silky says a big Thank you Dave   ;D

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Bluechip on August 01, 2015, 12:58:09 PM
Strewth! That was quick ... privatisation seems to have geed up the Post office no end. Whatever next? ...  :praise2:

I'm pleased that you're pleased that Mr. Silky is pleased so when you've quite finished gloating you wouldn't care to find a use for the rest of the heap would you ???  :lolb:

Dave

 

Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on August 01, 2015, 01:19:55 PM
so when you've quite finished gloating

We are still on our pre honeymoon Dave but it is less than three weeks now until our partnership becomes official :embarassed:

You know what women are like when they fall in love, it normally takes about 18 months before the reality of their foolishness finally hits them and they realise what mess the hormones have put them in this time  :facepalm:.

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on August 09, 2015, 03:18:21 PM
Since my friend took a liking to funny shaped collets we found that his two collet racks were over flowing so I had to make a new one to keep them all together  :).

Jo

P.S. I don't want to see another Q-max cutter for a long time  :Doh:
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on August 09, 2015, 04:11:11 PM
Looks like you still have quite a few gaps to fill, don't suppose that will take you long ;)
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Alan Haisley on August 10, 2015, 02:00:02 PM
Should have made it more modular for when that one overflows   :lolb:
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on August 10, 2015, 02:05:23 PM
Should have made it more modular for when that one overflows   :lolb:

Don't let him hear that  :facepalm:

Its bad enough that his imperious nature meant that he required spaces for a full set of round 64ths collets  :ShakeHead:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Dave Otto on August 10, 2015, 02:31:13 PM
Should have made it more modular for when that one overflows   :lolb:

Don't let him hear that  :facepalm:

Its bad enough that his imperious nature meant that he required spaces for a full set of round 64ths collets  :ShakeHead:

Jo

Nothing wrong with that! you will most likely find that a lot of those strange metric values you seem to come up with, will drop right into those fractional collets.  :lolb:

Dave
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on August 15, 2015, 04:59:40 PM
There is a first time for everything: I have just discovered how much I like cutting threads with Mr Silky.    (http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Love/love-094.gif)

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: BillTodd on August 15, 2015, 05:20:19 PM
Remember, Hardinge recommend not to thread above 1000rpm ;-)

If your threading stop lever is nicely adjusted , the stops will be good for  a couple of thou", making blind internal threads as easy as pie. 

Once you've used a haringe for thrreading you will not want to use the Colchester again B-)

Bill
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on August 15, 2015, 07:00:40 PM
Well actually Bill  I made a point of using the slow speed not realising that it was still doing over 300 rpm  :o  I will have to practise setting up the stops before I try anything too exciting.

I assume to do internal threading I should set the top slide at the opposite 59 degrees and use his backing out threading lever in reverse  :).

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: steamer on August 15, 2015, 09:26:22 PM
There is a first time for everything: I have just discovered how much I like cutting threads with Mr Silky.    (http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Love/love-094.gif)

Jo

Told you!!!!!

Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: BillTodd on August 16, 2015, 01:27:44 AM

Quote
I assume to do internal threading I should set the top slide at the opposite 59 degrees and use his backing out threading lever in reverse  :).
Exactly . Although, be careful not to ram the tool into the other side of the hole with the topslide shift (btdt)  , just ease it out enough to clear the thread.

Your threading lever should be free enough to just click back to the centre ,when pushed near by the thread stops. You have to check the stops with the tool clear at the thread speed (changing speed will alter the position slightly) and then you have to trust the stops (let go of the lever or keep a very light hand on it ).

Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on September 27, 2015, 06:42:26 PM
So can anyone tell me how do I cut a two start thread on Mr Silky. :noidea:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on September 27, 2015, 07:03:38 PM
Now if you didn't angle the topslide its quite easy with it parallel to the lathe axis to just move the tool along by half the pitch to get the second start.
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: BillTodd on September 27, 2015, 08:00:51 PM
So can anyone tell me how do I cut a two start thread on Mr Silky. :noidea:

Jo

Easy.  (I'll just see if i can find my how to guide to save me typing it again.)

I'm back....
On a Hardinge, you can use the 48 tooth spindle gear as an indexer; i.e. you can disconnect the thread/feed knob, rotate the chuck 90 or 180 degrees and re-engage it without disturbing the position of the lead-screw, top-slide or work-piece etc.


So to cut double start thread;

1) cut and finish the first thread,

I use the spindle lock before and after the turn, to check the 180 position

1a) engage the spindle lock
1b) note chuck position

2)disengage the thread/feed knob,

3) rotate the chuck 180 degrees

3a) re-engage spindle lock to check the 180 position

4) Holding the dog-clutch axle (which is the back change gear stub in the threading gear box) still when you re-engage the feed knob, helps to stop anything moving out of sync.

5) Re-zero your top-slide and cut the second start.

You can cut a four (or 5,8,10...) starts using the same method but you cannot check the 90 degree positions with the spindle lock, as there are only 6 lock holes.

It easier to do than explain
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on September 27, 2015, 08:04:47 PM
This what you are looking for

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/bridgeport-hardinge-mills-lathes/screwcutting-2-start-acme-thread-hlv-215019/
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: BillTodd on September 27, 2015, 08:07:28 PM
Beat me to it :-)
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on September 27, 2015, 08:17:28 PM
 8) Thanks, Yet again Hardinge it makes it easy when you know how  :cartwheel:.

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on October 19, 2015, 09:50:02 AM
I have been concerned about how much power the Rotary converter might be taking so to day I remembered to take some current measurements. On no load the rotary converter is taking 400 Watts.

Compare that to when I turn on the Harrison (1500W motor) which when not actually cutting still draws 1KW  :o

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on October 19, 2015, 10:35:17 AM
Well at least the motor will be heating the workshop a bit :LittleDevil:

Now what was that I said back at the start of this thread

"Best bung a few more solar panels on the roof too if you are going to have two motors running just to run one lathe., sounds a right PITA." Maybe that should be pain in teh wallet ;)

Just as well that you love him and don't mine splashing out on treats for him and financing his expensive habbits :Lol:
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on October 19, 2015, 05:45:57 PM
I would think it is much like driving a Bentley,  at that level of elegance,  one doesn't worry about the fuel mileage  :shrug:.

Big E
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Don1966 on October 19, 2015, 06:56:03 PM
I would think it is much like driving a Bentley,  at that level of elegance,  one doesn't worry about the fuel mileage  :shrug:.

Big E
That Bentley could of done with a couple of VFD'S. Only pulls current when turned on.............. :stickpoke:

Don.  :wine1:
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on October 19, 2015, 07:36:10 PM
I was very pleased with how little power it uses  ;D. To put the power usage into perspective: I normally run with 400 watts of lighting on in the workshop and in the winter a 2KW fan heater. No the solar array doesn't give much free power in the winter  :(

That single rotary converter powers 5 three phase machines with a total of 10 different three phase electric motors, of which two are dual speed motors and it has a spare outlet available ready to plug and play my next addition  8)

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on October 19, 2015, 07:46:45 PM
So not only does your converter use a lot of lecky, your whole workshop does :-[

I can happily work with 140w of general lighting with an extra 60w local light if using a machine. And 1kw of heating seems to work quite well clicking on and off on a thermostat. Only on when I'm in the shop, no need to keep the arthritis off old machines :Lol:

Anyway if you are concerned about what the converter is using candle light and a tredle lathe is good for the figure :mischief:
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: b.lindsey on October 19, 2015, 08:32:20 PM
Dang Cletus, at times you can be down right eloquent  :lolb:

Bill
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on October 19, 2015, 08:43:35 PM
Iv,e said it before

The Quality remains after the cost is forgotten

Just enjoy the machines and you cannot work in the dark


Jo

OT
do you store the solar generated juice or is it when the sun shines we have power, whats the conversion efficiency from the dc to ac

Now I do know the answer to the second ? and I know how you could store the power but it would be expensive outlay.  But i bet a lot of the forum members would like to be enlightened into the free energy syndrome , maybe a new thread from you on the subject would be a good read , as you have first hand knowledge of your installation.

Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Allen Smithee on October 19, 2015, 08:58:42 PM
So not only does your converter use a lot of lecky, your whole workshop does :-[

I can happily work with 140w of general lighting with an extra 60w local light if using a machine. And 1kw of heating seems to work quite well clicking on and off on a thermostat. Only on when I'm in the shop, no need to keep the arthritis off old machines :Lol:

Not sure what the point of these continued pops at Jo are, but I doubt I could do ANY serious work in a workshop with only 150w of lighting. I have 4 fixed 100w halogens over the lathe alone, and another 3 of them over the mill. Both machines also have assorted directable lights as well, varying from 60w conventional to 25w LED (because these lights are all "re-purposed" ones I've collected over the years as things have changed around the house).

My benches have an assortment of anglepoise, gooseneck and desk lights (again, re-purposed from kids homework desks and reading lights) all of which have the lumens equivalent of 100w filament bulbs, used by the bandsaw, grinders, jigsaw, pillar drill etc. My electronics bench has a couple of illuminated magnifiers plus some 20w under-shelf strip lights, and then the whole garage/workshop was four 8' fluorescent tubes as background lighting. If I turned them all on I suspect I'd have over a kW of lighting, although I generally just turn on the ones I need. But I always believe in having plenty of light because doing any form of metalwork/woodwork or indeed anything involving sharp/hot tools by braile is frankly just a stupid thing to do.

Saying your reliant robin uses less power than Jo's collection of ferraris is just envy talking, as far as I can see and these continual pokes at her are getting rather wearing for the bystanders, as well as not really showing this place in a good light [sic]. I don't suppose you could consider turning the poke knob down a bit and giving it a rest?

Please...

AS
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on October 19, 2015, 09:02:57 PM
Stuart, After what I paid for Mr Silky do you think I am going to worry about an extra 10p an hour to run him  :lolb:


OT
do you store the solar generated juice or is it when the sun shines we have power, whats the conversion efficiency from the dc to ac

Now I do know the answer to the second ? and I know how you could store the power but it would be expensive outlay.  But i bet a lot of the forum members would like to be enlightened into the free energy syndrome , maybe a new thread from you on the subject would be a good read , as you have first hand knowledge of your installation.

Stuart

I store the solar juice in my hot water tank using the Emersion heater hooked up through a cheap 24 hour timer ;) When the sun shines in the height of summer I have seen 3996 Watts of electric power being delivered from the 4Kw array  8)

They keep trying to sell me lots of batteries to store the power in but  :ShakeHead: in the summer I wouldn't use the up to 30Kw it generates by the following day and in the winter very little is generated it has been as bad as 300w total generated power :-[

If you look at my annual electricity bill vs the return on my feed in tariff I am in pocket to the tune of £1600 a year (Tax free) :drinking-41:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Stuart on October 19, 2015, 09:27:30 PM
Thanks Jo

I am sure that that info will enlighten our members

Allen I am with you about unwarranted comments made by some, as to the lighting my workshop is very small with thee dual four foot Flory packs and led task lights on all three machines ,plus two more on the bench .

I have put it down to my A G E problem or should I say " my eye are dim I have not brought my specs with me "

But remember lamps go in lamp holders and bulbs go in the garden 😀

Stuart
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Allen Smithee on October 19, 2015, 10:04:27 PM
Au contraire, mon Ami. Or have you never enjoyed the light from an infant daffodil wth 20amps running through it?

Organic lighting - keeps the green lobby pacified..

 :naughty:

AS
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on October 28, 2015, 05:03:50 PM
Someone has been handling Mr Silky's workshop owner's manual when setting up to cut metric gears and getting grease all over the pages  :-[

So today I took the opportunity to day to go and flutter my eye lashes  :naughty: at a very nice gentleman to plastic coat a set of change wheel charts for him

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on October 28, 2015, 05:50:44 PM
Those "eye lash flutters " won't work as well when you're retired.  Milk all out of them you can for now. Face it,  it's all about "help me, help you,help me  :lolb:. Just saying  8)

Big E
Title: Re: A new friend -12 months on
Post by: Jo on May 27, 2016, 06:09:00 PM
As Mr Silky has been living with me now for 12 months I thought I should provide an up date:

1, He is wonderful to handle  :Love:
2, He is always very accurate and all machining is repeatable to 0.001mm  8)
3, He does metric and imperilous thread cutting easy peasy  ;D

His negative points: :headscratch:
 
1, It takes a while to clean up his coolant (baby) oil when we use it  ::)
2, He attracts the attention of any men who visit  :ShakeHead: and then they feel the need to stroke him :facepalm:


I would recommend a Hardinge HLV-H to anyone: just not my Mr Silky, he is all mine :Director:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: b.lindsey on May 27, 2016, 07:35:02 PM
Wishing you and Mr. Silky many happy anniversaries Jo :)

Bill
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on May 27, 2016, 07:35:50 PM
I'm also wagering he doesn't belch,fart,snore, or require "guy time" at the pub  :lolb: :lolb:

Big E
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on May 27, 2016, 08:27:03 PM
I forgot those features of the range...now I have begun to remember  :facepalm2:

I'll stick to my Mr Silky  ;D

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on May 27, 2016, 08:27:48 PM
I'm also wagering he doesn't belch,fart,snore, or require "guy time" at the pub  :lolb: :lolb:

Big E

Sounds like he is not a real man :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Bluechip on May 27, 2016, 09:09:19 PM

I forgot those features of the range...now I have begun to remember  :facepalm2:


Not exclusive to the male of the species. ... I remember one IBM System/360 operator was not called 'Jaqui the Ripper' without damn good reason ...  :Lol:

Dave
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: b.lindsey on May 28, 2016, 12:07:04 AM
 :lolb:
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on September 26, 2016, 07:54:37 PM
Another addition to Mr Silky's collection of tools: You may remember that when he first arrived he tried a travelling steady on for fit and he made it clear did not like it  :ShakeHead:

Following extensive study and many rejected designs  ::) His first travelling steady is based on the KISS principal. It is designed to work both for supporting normal cutting and for thread cutting at the appropriate angle  ;D.

A few photos..

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Bertie_Bassett on September 26, 2016, 08:15:16 PM
shh that looks simple indeed, just right for the job
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Ridjobradi on September 26, 2016, 08:15:31 PM
KISS looks like an excellent idea.  Thanks for sharing.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk

Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: 10KPete on September 26, 2016, 08:17:37 PM
Too simple. It'll never work.....

Pete
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: b.lindsey on September 26, 2016, 08:36:59 PM
Simple and elegant!!  Sometimes the simplest solutions are indeed the best...especially if Mr. Silky approves :)

Bill
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on November 12, 2016, 04:29:14 PM
Oh dear  :facepalm:

Another of Mr Silky's friends has lost all self control and found he can't live without new friend of his own  :ShakeHead:

Maybe Jason was right: All Hardinge HLV-H's need to come with a health warning "fondle me at your own peril":lolb:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 13, 2016, 02:43:52 AM
Oh dear  :facepalm:

Another of Mr Silky's friends has lost all self control and found he can't live without new friend of his own  :ShakeHead:

Maybe Jason was right: All Hardinge HLV-H's need to come with a health warning "fondle me at your own peril":lolb:

Jo

So Jo........is there going to be an updated shop tour coming up?

Jim
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on November 13, 2016, 02:58:09 AM
So Jo........is there going to be an updated shop tour coming up?

Jim

Not yet, this one has been purchased by another of the forum members and is not due to be picked up until after Xmas. In the meantime its new owner has to try to find space for it in his workshop  ::)

I could of course help him there but he currently is hoping that he does not have to get rid of Son of Tgs or his Schaublin SV12 to make the required space but I remain hopeful  :embarassed:

Any way you wouldn't want to see the workshop at the moment it is full of Orphans  :Doh:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on November 13, 2016, 07:30:32 AM
He could always get rid of a set of traction engine castings if tight for room :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on November 13, 2016, 08:02:41 AM
He could always get rid of a set of traction engine castings if tight for room :LittleDevil:

They are not even in that shed and I don't want them or the various bits of Loco  :hellno:

Except maybe the 1831  ::)

Jo

Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on December 16, 2016, 04:24:21 PM
18 months on and Mr Silky has been getting a bit stiff on the bed :ShakeHead: I tracked it down to his wipers rubbing where they had expanded having absorbed the oil. 

So old rubbers out, a sheet of thick natural felt cut to shape and put in their place. Lets see how long that lasts.  :)

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: b.lindsey on December 16, 2016, 11:00:53 PM
That was a lot of expansion Jo!  No wonder things were stiff!  The new felt sure looks good and should last a good while I would think.

Bill
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: steamer on December 17, 2016, 12:48:20 AM
Jo, does your way oil have a sulpher in it?   or the cutting oil?

Hmmmmmmm

Dave
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on December 17, 2016, 10:03:30 AM
Jo, does your way oil have a sulpher in it? or the cutting oil? 

:thinking: I don't know Dave.

I rarely let Mr Silky loose with his baby oil as he likes to throw it every where  :ShakeHead: So it is more likely to be caused by the bed lube that's applied using his little plunger on the bed.

The felt isn't as good at cleaning up the bed as the rubber was :disappointed:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on December 17, 2016, 10:17:55 AM
Maybe a modern Polysomethingorother would be less likely to soak up oil than rubber or can you still buy spare ones?
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on December 17, 2016, 10:32:42 AM
can you still buy spare ones?

Yes £102 + Vat + P&P  :facepalm2:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: BillTodd on December 17, 2016, 10:49:59 AM
can you still buy spare ones?

Yes £102 + Vat + P&P  :facepalm2:

Jo

The factory ones (made in Taiwan , i suspect)  are a stiff plastic, and don't work that well (especially on a 'used' bed)  . Your felt ones are probably better  , although, you might want to avoid grinding dust .

Bill
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on December 17, 2016, 11:05:01 AM
Thanks Bill  :)

. Your felt ones are probably better  , although, you might want to avoid grinding dust .

The rubber ones were excellent and cleared cast iron swarf without any problem. The felt lets oil out from under the ways - they leave the bed moist just waiting for the CI dust to make friends with it  :(

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: steamer on December 17, 2016, 01:32:57 PM
Jo, does your way oil have a sulpher in it? or the cutting oil? 

:thinking: I don't know Dave.

I rarely let Mr Silky loose with his baby oil as he likes to throw it every where  :ShakeHead: So it is more likely to be caused by the bed lube that's applied using his little plunger on the bed.

The felt isn't as good at cleaning up the bed as the rubber was :disappointed:

Jo

Replace the rubber wiper, and make a .010" spring steel scraper that JUST fits the dovetail...it will help keep it clean.    I use Mobile Vactra #2 way oil on my Aciera.  No issues.

Dave
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on December 21, 2016, 04:24:44 PM
Some people are never happy with just one  :ShakeHead:

Jo
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jasonb on December 21, 2016, 06:05:45 PM
Is he hoping they will start breeding?

Looks like the collets already have
Title: Re: A new friend
Post by: Jo on January 10, 2017, 08:20:17 PM
Is he hoping they will start breeding?

 :paranoia:
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