Model Engine Maker
General Category => Chatterbox => Topic started by: Allen Smithee on September 17, 2014, 05:43:47 PM
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So sometime over the next 10 days I will finally be collecting together my old lathe (stripped and stored about 20 years ago) and deciding what to do with it. I don't have space for a second lathe, so my options are:
1. Sell it
2. Keep any useful bits and give the rest to a scrap dealer.
I'll post some photos (hopefully) this weekend, but I'm fairly sure it's a late model of the long-bed version of the "4-inch precision" myford (see the lathes.co.uk page (http://www.lathes.co.uk/myford%20mf74/index.html)), probably the MF-36.M with integral motor & countershaft on the pressed-steel stand and tray. It has the front-adjustable countershaft belt tension wheel shown on the photos of the dark green lathe about 2/3rds of the way down the page on lathes.co.uk. According to Tony it's probably a very rare beast (possibly a sole survivor of the model!).
If I don't sell it complete the I suspect it's more use to me as parts - I think the bed is the same as the super-7B I'm getting soon, so the tailstock, steadies and other bits could be usefrul to have as spares, it has nice handles and wheels that I'd keep for something else, while the unusual T-slotted cross-slide/compound slide assembly could be the basis of a nifty vertical slide for the super-7. And I never throw away gears, so the change gear set would be kept. I'm even wondering if (assuming it had no significant value) I could cut the bed away from the headstock (angle-grinders are such brutal tools!) and use it as the basis of a home-made small lathe (a bit bigger than a cowells, but you get the idea). Hey, it's just a thought OK!
Before I consider ebaying it or breaking it for bits I just wanted to find out if anyone here could be interested in it - it's located in Farnham (Surrey-Hants border) in the UK and I suspect it would need to be a collection job because even stripped down it wouldn't fit through the hole in the post box!
Anyone tempted?
AS
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This side of the pond perhaps.....bit of a long wet drive to get it there.... 8)
Dave
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This side of the pond perhaps.....bit of a long wet drive to get it there.... 8)
Well if you're potentially interested I could always leak that it was involved in an Afgan training camp, and then your chappies would probably send an executive jet and delta-force escort to transport it back to the yewsay (and they'd kit it out with a nice orange protective cover as well!).
:mischief: :mischief:
AS
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This side of the pond perhaps.....bit of a long wet drive to get it there.... 8)
Well if you're potentially interested I could always leak that it was involved in an Afgan training camp, and then your chappies would probably send an executive jet and delta-force escort to transport it back to the yewsay (and they'd kit it out with a nice orange protective cover as well!).
:mischief: :mischief:
AS
Feel free to do your part and crate it up! 8) :LittleDevil:
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Well most of the large parts weren't where I expected them to be. After an extensive search of the garage I finally found another crate in a corner under some family stuff - it wasn't with the rest of it, which meant that it never got "rescued" with the other bits after the roof leak.
So when I opened the crate I found this...
(http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad93/sir_pdr/20092014184.jpg)
(http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad93/sir_pdr/20092014183.jpg)
:censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: :'( :'( :'( :wallbang:
What do you think - is it a complete gonner, or is it recoverable?
AS
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Looks like it will need a ton of work before it will be worthy of the name 'precision' - I guess it depends what you want to spend your free time doing.
Simon.
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Put some concrete in with it and make a wharf anchor......That's "totaled"....could you resurrect it? Sure!....but for a 1/10th the money and none of the effort, you could buy another one that works....depends on what you want to spend you time and money on I guess
Dave
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God thats well Donald Ducked :embarassed:
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Yes, that was essentially my assessment as well, but I though I should get a second opinion.
The bed itself is in good nick, as is the stand and suds tray. Does anyone need a stand and tray for their lathe? They're pressed steel fabrications, which means you could fit it to another lathe by just drilling a couple of holes.
The cross/topslide assembly isn't quite as bad as it looks, so I'll probably hold onto them to see if I can make a vertical slide out of them, and I may hang onto the tailstock because I can think of a few useful things I could make from it. But the rest is probably just scrap. How much can you get for cast iron/steel scrap these days...?
I'll check with Tony Griffiths to see if anyone might want the bed before I scrap it...
AS
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What a sad picture. My guess is that none of it is quite as bad as it looks, I wouldn't think there is much pitting. I'm sure the chucks, at least, can be made serviceable, you can't have too many chucks.
Commiserations,
Rod
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That looks very sad Allen.
Good luck with whatever you decided to do with that stew...
Kim
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I think I owe it to the old beast to at least dry it all off, strip it an see how it might clean up with a little bit of effort, and then we'll see. I do have several sets of softjaws for that 3-jaw chuck, so it might be worth trying to save it. In one of the other crates there's a faceplate which is undamaged - it should fit the Super 7...
On the up-side - I watched Lewis take pole from Nico by 7msec which (by my quick fag-packet calculation) meant he was less than 2 feet in front across the line!
AS
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Doesn't look promising at all Allen, but I agree, clean it up and see what you have that may be salvageable.
Bill
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I would grab the first bit, set up an electrolysis tank to take the rust off and give it a few days to make the rust float off and then decide if it is worth the effort on any other bits.
As a minimum those chucks are saveable as are the Dixons.
Jo
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Sometimes, it's rather amazing what happens after electrolysis.
Agree with Jo. Very little work and a surprise may lurk under the rust.
I'd throw it in the tank and give it a few days
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Try stripping the parts, leave them in a bin immersed in a weak vinegar solution for a few days (but check regularly), give them a scrub and see what you've got. Perhaps try just one part as a test. It has worked for me in the past, with good results. Hugh.
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Here's a rather amazing restoration of a badly rusted Jacobs chuck"
(http://enginuitysystems.com/pix/tools/Frozen_Jacobs_Chuck.jpg) (http://enginuitysystems.com/pix/tools/UnFrozen_Jacobs_Chuck.jpg)
http://www.shopsmith.net/forums/atta...2&d=1253029550 (http://www.shopsmith.net/forums/attachment.htm?attachmentid=5982&d=1253029550)
Maybe you can machine everything down to the metal under the rust and make a 9/10 scale version? :shrug:
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Im with the electrolytic conversion, very little work and surface rust will disappear maybe a nice surprise in there afterall
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What do you think - is it a complete gonner, or is it recoverable?
AS
With a good clean you may just be able to recover the crate :LittleDevil:
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Its quite a while since I have seen a bowl of lathe soup as big as that.
Maybe something like this would be worth a try
http://www.eastwood.com/eastwood-s-gel-rust-dissolver.html
Or even this
http://www.syrupmakers.com/rust/
Phil
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Im with the electrolytic conversion, very little work and surface rust will disappear maybe a nice surprise in there afterall
Yes, a battery charger and some washing soda has worked well for me. :ThumbsUp:
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Im with the electrolytic conversion, very little work and surface rust will disappear maybe a nice surprise in there afterall
Yes, a battery charger and some washing soda has worked well for me. :ThumbsUp:
Well that's something I can read-up on and try, although I have bench power supplies so I can fairly easily set up a controlled constant-current feed. I gather the "ideal" is a 10% (by weight) solution of caustic soda in water, and a gentle 100-250mA for 24-48 hours is that right? I just need to find some mild steel sheet for the anodes.
AS
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Maybe something like this would be worth a try
http://www.eastwood.com/eastwood-s-gel-rust-dissolver.html
Interesting - anyone know of an equivalent pruduct that's available in the UK?
Or even this
http://www.syrupmakers.com/rust/
Even more interesting - is that REALLY suggesting a sugar syrup solution, or is that a trade-name?
AS
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Maybe something like this would be worth a try
http://www.eastwood.com/eastwood-s-gel-rust-dissolver.html
Interesting - anyone know of an equivalent pruduct that's available in the UK?
Or even this
http://www.syrupmakers.com/rust/
Even more interesting - is that REALLY suggesting a sugar syrup solution, or is that a trade-name?
AS
Frost Auto have Eastwood products in the UK ... I think the stuff you want is in there:
http://www.frost.co.uk/search/?fq%5Bcategory%5D=Eastwood&fq%5Bcategory_id%5D=234&p=8&q=eastwood
Dave
EDIT could not get the item link to work .... just the generic 'Eastwood' search. Now it does ... ???
http://www.frost.co.uk/eastwood-rust-dissolver-946ml.html
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Allen, if you don't want to go the electrolytic way, you could try citric acid it's quite slow,but works quite well.
Ian S C
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Most of the things I de-rusted were not as bad as the stuff you have there Allen so it only took a few hours to remove the rust. You can get Washing Soda from most supermarkets, it's very inexpensive and doesn't contain anything nasty. No idea what's in those linked products but at $50 a gallon I certainly wouldn't buy anything like that if I could soak the items like yours in a bath of WS. The only thing I would add is to coat the cleaned items with something ASAP or they'll rust quickly again! :naughty:
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Hmmm...
I might try multiple approaches. Given that it will be a few weeks before I can devote significant time to it I might degrease everything in petrol and clean out that crate, and then just fill it with something to soak fore a few weeks. Then if it still needs more I can try the electrolysis thing.
I'm reluctant to spend £40-60 on special stuff, so the question is whether to use citric acid (what sort of concentration?) or caustic soda?
Any thoughts?
AS
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Im with Jo I did some electrolysis on some stuff and was amazed. Very little work evolved in it.
Some Washing Soda and a 12 volt charger and a bucket is all it really takes. It's amazing how the rut will migrate from your parts to the sacrificial electrode. That is the only way I'll ever clean rust now that I have done it once and seen the out come and the ease of it.
This video shows the amazing results you can achieve but you don't need the fancy set up just a sacrificial electrode hooked to the positive and part being derusted on the negative
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQNvhUYqCkw
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One thing that mystified me was why the crate still had water in it. The Garage roof was repaired over ten years ago, and the crate isn't sealed (has some largish vents in the lid). It finally dawned on me this afternoon.
Along with the other bits in this crate were the two mainshaft bearing oilers (original Myford ones AFAIK). When I put them in the crate they still had oil in them, and when the crate filled with water the oil floated out to form a protective slick across the top of the water, sealing it against evaporation...
:wallbang: :wallbang: :wallbang:
AS
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Allen, if you are in no rush, soak them in a 50/50 mixture of acetone and automotive automatic trans fluid till you are ready to really see how much they need. A good scrubbing with a wire brush, a rinse, then see where you are at. Just my $.02 Confederate, not worth much up North :lolb:. WD-40 also makes a great rust solvent, may not be on your side of the pond :shrug:
E
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I got to the main bed today. Fortunately it's in much better condition than the spindle and saddle. The bed is 36" long, with an overall length of about 48", which means it's almost certainly am MF-36.M. As you can see in the photos it has the front handwheel to tension the integral countershaft - something that Tony Griffiths suggests was a fairly rare feature.
AS
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There are a few people that can make that sludge look new again.
I would give it a go.
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Is there a market for new sludge? I could add it to my growing portfolio of products for the busy model engineer - pre-blunted tools, ready-made swarf, ready-broken taps...
:mischief:
Actually I may have a customer for the lathe who wants to take it on as a restoration project.
AS
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Let him take it.......Allen....it's WAY more work to rebuild a lathe than most people think it is...
Dave
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First the spindle or a spindle analog will need to be made.
Why?
The headstock is integral to the bed. So the ways will have to be refinished with respect to the spindle. To do that I would rebuild the spindle first, and get it functional. then use a test mandrel to define the centerline of the spindle and to determine where the bed is now.
Then, The bed needs to be rescraped to allow the front of the test bar to rise .0005/12" up and .0005"/12" towards the front.
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Once that's complete, the bed and the spindle test bar become the datums of reference for all other fitting and alignment work.
Starting with the Tailstock next......I think.
Dave
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The headstock is integral to the bed.
Is it? Not convinced, have another look at the picture.
However, having had a go at a tiny lathe, I certainly wouldn't like to attempt anything bigger.
Rod
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Now that you say so Rod.....I'm not sure either. Can't tell from the picture if there is a mating face line under the head stock or not.
Dave
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The headstock is a separate casting, bolted onto the bed casting (although I doubt it has been UNbolted since it was delivered from the factory).
AS
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OK....then just scrape the bed flat and parallel to the headstock housing bearing surface.....and the Dovetails parallel to each other. Not so bad if you have a good size plate and a not insignificant amount of Elbow grease....
Dave
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Dave don't encourage him to restore it , he needs a S7B :mischief:
Jo
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Just to be clear - I have no interest in restoring this lathe because I'll be buying an S7B as soon as I have cleared the workshop space to take it. I just need to know if it's a practicable proposition because if it is I should resist robbing it for parts! If it's unlikely that anyone else would want to restore it then I'll be scrapping (not scraping) the bed and cannibalising a lot of the rest.
Unfortunately seeing it there keeps causing silly notions to appear in my head, like cutting the tray down to convert the stand into a mill stand, or cutting most of the bed off to make a horizontal mill, or making a new spindle with tapered roller bearings, adjusting the pulley ratios to get 8-10,000rpm, cutting the bed down and making a tool grinder out of it...
I think I have to find a home for it before it destroys what little remains of my mental health! :embarassed:
While you're listening - what would be the easiest way to cut down the chip-tray? Find someone with a big bandsaw? Flame cutting? Angle grinder? Highly-motivated mutant ninja woodworm?
AS
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Pete, before you do anything with it try advertising it (for free ;)) on Homeworkshop (http://www.homeworkshop.org.uk/) to see if there is some strange person who collects Myfords who would like to give it a new home.
There were only 20 of these lathes ever built, if you scrap it that is 5% of the entire production run gone :shrug:
Jo
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Oh...I think it needs to find a new home....soon
Don't cut anything....transport it to the hands of another!
Dave
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Pete, before you do anything with it try advertising it (for free ;)) on Homeworkshop (http://www.homeworkshop.org.uk/) to see if there is some strange person who collects Myfords who would like to give it a new home.
There were only 20 of these lathes ever built, if you scrap it that is 5% of the entire production run gone :shrug:
Jo
Agreed, would be a real shame to destroy it. :(
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Lots of people say I must see it preserved, but no one (yet) wants to take on the preservation job!
I've advertised it on HWS to see if anyone wants to take it on, otherwise it's gettiong a visit from Mr Angle Grinder...
AS
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With it being one of twenty ever made, I would have to at least clean it up and put it back together, even it never turned another piece of stock. Machine tool art :stir:
E
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I just don't have the space for it - everytyhing in my workshop must earn the roof over its head. Heck, if I start giving homes to retired lathes then some of the household staff will want indoor sleeping quarters as well. Where would it end? Communisim - that's what it is, I tell you!
:Mad: :Mad:
AS
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I've advertised it on HWS to see if anyone wants to take it on, otherwise it's gettiong a visit from Mr Angle Grinder...
AS
Have you got a link, I can't see it?
How much would it cost to have the bed reground and are any others spares required easily available and/or expensive?
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I've advertised it on HWS to see if anyone wants to take it on, otherwise it's gettiong a visit from Mr Angle Grinder...
AS
Have you got a link, I can't see it?
It's still "awaiting approval"
How much would it cost to have the bed reground and are any others spares required easily available and/or expensive?
Don't know about bed grinding (others will) but I'd doubt if any significant spares are still available- this was a rare beast even when it was new, and that was about 70 years ago!
AS
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This side of the pond....between $500 and $1500....it's a pretty simple bed, so I would say closer to the 500 mark.
but it will depend on who you ask....it can go MUCH higher....you have to shop around.
The bed is the easy part. It's the spindle and the tailstock that will be hard to deal with.
Dave
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I've sussed it - I could convert the MF-36 into a precision mini-hog roaster! Spread a bed of charcoals on the chip tray, mount a suckling pig between centres and engage the back-gear...
:P :P :P
AS
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Well now Allen, you may have more redneck in you that I thought :Jester:. I like that idea, let's expand. Considering the size I think it would be great for Cornish Hens.(swing over bed). As long as the spindle turns the birds won't even care about their amount of runout or geometry. I've found square stock makes the best spit, so, we'll have to see who(Jo) has a square stock collet to fit the nose and just a good 60 degree center drill in the other end would support a live center in the tail stock. If it's not originally back geared, we may have to calculate some new drive pulleys. The chip tray would work great for the coal bed, which, since we're cooking with wood we may as well have a coal fired boiler to supply the driving engine, which of course has to be a steam engine, think cackling Creators :lolb: I do think the first mod should be a suds tank and pump to baste as needed. The nozzle could be mounted to the carriage, so each bird could get the just right amount ;). You think I'm joking, but, you sure have me thinking about some promo ideas.
E
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Have you got a link, I can't see it?
The advert has been "approved" and is now on the first page of HWS (advert 20767 here (http://www.homeworkshop.org.uk/index.php?option=com_adsmanager&view=show_ad&adid=20767&catid=2)).
So far I have been inundated with a total of zero enquiries, so you might have to join the queue...
AS
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Well now Allen, you may have more redneck in you that I thought :Jester:.
How dare you, Sir! If I wasn't trying to be polite I'd have my butler administer a sound horsewhipping...
;D
Of course we would have to add a toggle linkage to the tumble-reverse so that the saddle could administer the precision constant baste, and then the rear tool-post could carry the knife-blade for crackling-scoring (does anyone know if pork skin is free-cutting? what sort of feeds and speeds are recommended?). The QC tool post would then allow a rapid change to part-off the head at the end of the cooking process...
AS
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I'm happy to say that this lathe is now sold - to a chap who already has one of the shorter-bed versions of the same model and has a lot of in experience rebuilding/modifying lathes so he know exactly what he was looking at (and what state it was in). That gives me fewer moral qualms about selling on the "strained lathe-soup" parts. He primarily wanted it for the bed and headstock, which he believes he can use to replace his existing one to give him a much-wanted increase in between-centres capacity on his existing MF lathe.
So it's not being scrapped or broken for parts after all.
As a result Operation Garage Storm is close the end of phase 1 (clearance) and will shortly be moving to phase 2 (installation of new machines).
AS
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:whoohoo: Great news.
You must need a new lathe :naughty:.
Jo
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Maybe - any idea where I might find one?
:smokin2:
AS