Model Engine Maker
Supporting => Tooling & Machines => Topic started by: Dave Otto on June 24, 2018, 11:56:56 PM
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One day working in the shop, not long after completing the 3d CAD models and drawings for the Morrison & Marvin “Model Builders Vise” I received a package in the mail. It appeared to be just a typical package but when I opened it I realized my life was going complicated for a while.
Inside were several beautifully made wax patterns of complex, unusual shapes. There were some hand sketches included but they did not help much. The sketches had dimensions larger than the patterns? Closer inspection revealed the logo of Morrison & Marvin on two of the patterns, so at least I knew where they came from.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_001.jpg)
I studied the lines and numbers and realized I must have the full size dimensions and this was a quarter scale model. Then knowing Morrison & Marvin castings are often combined to save foundry costs and provide a chucking lug I realized I was looking at a one quarter size Kurt Style Mill Vise. The number cast in the bottom "D-15" must indicate the size was 1.5", quarter size of a 6"
I called my friend Roland Morrison of Morrison & Marvin Engine Works and he told me I already had the plans sitting on my mill. He did send me some SurfCAM files that Marvin Hedberg had used to cut the molds. Unfortunately Marvin uses a older version of SurfCAM that is not compatible with the newer solid modeling programs.
Now the project was not only to machine the castings when they arrived but make working drawings so all the parts would fit. To do this, 3d CAD models of all the vise parts needed to be created and assembled.
The castings from the foundry were going to be out a few weeks, so I had some time to get going on some 3d models. Using the wax patterns, Roland’s sketches, and measuring a full size D-6 vise all the parts were modeled and assembled in Alibre. The wax patterns were the most useful in the modeling process because they were an actual representation of the castings. I needed to determine how much material would need to be removed from the machined surfaces to maintain proper alignment of the screw, nut and jaws. Marvin had left plenty of material for machining, just a matter how much of it to remove.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_002.jpg)
Here is a screen shot of the 3d model.
If you are interested in seeing the Model Builders Vise drawings they can be downloaded for free here.
http://www.morrisonandmarvin.com/vise_drawings.php
And if you are curious to have a look at the current state of the Mill Vise drawings they are located here.
http://www.morrisonandmarvin.com/mill_vise_drawings.php
Roland may chime in here with some interesting information about some guy named Muggli. :stickpoke:
More to follow.
Dave
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Dave, I was on the website yesterday wondering when the castings would be available. This will be a fun build to watch and I can hardly wait until I can get a set of castings.
Cheers Dan
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Thanks for stopping by Dan,
I’m pretty sure Roland will know the status of the castings; I do know that the foundries that do investment castings tend to have long lead times.
I thought that it would be fun to include a couple pictures of the beautiful molds that Marvin machined.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_004.jpg)
This is the mold for the body and the nut; notice the sliding core that makes the cavity where the nut runs. There are also two more removable pieces that form the openings on the sides of the vise body. It is hard to see but there is also a removable piece for the nut because there is an undercut on the casting that would prevent the wax form being removed from the mold, not to mention nearly impossible to machine.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_003.jpg)
This is the mold for the base and jaw set. The jaw mold also has an insert for the same reason described above. Marvin is an absolute master at this type of work.
Thanks for checking in,
Dave
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That is some beautiful mold work Dave. Thanks for showing it.
Bill
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Its hard to tell from their web page - do they sell the model makers vise as a complete unit, or just as castings? Its small, but really nice, would be a handy addition...
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It should have been easy but of course it wasn't. It is my experience that most of my projects take twice as long as expected and cost four times more.
This one was different. It took four times longer and cost eight times more. Compared to the ModelBuilder Vise the MillVise should have been simple. No compound curves and difficult holding problems, all straight lines both for molds and machining. How could it be difficult?
Disassembly of the genuine Kurt D6 sitting on my mill showed no hint of difficulty. The half ball which is the heart of the design, could be made on the end of a piece of O1, parted off and hardened. The left hand screw could be single pointed and the nut could be tapped by a common left hand tap. No difficult acme threads in this one. What could possibly go wrong?
Checking out different changes in the vise most of us call a "Kurt", or at least a "Kurt Type" by off shore manufacturers, I discovered "Muggli". The patent describes it as "Vise with workpiece hold down force" invented in the 1930s
I asked around and soon had a 5" and a 6" Muggli which are very similar to a modern Kurt. Kurt had purchased the patent about 1977, simplified the castings a little and made it a machine shop staple.
Roland
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Bill, Chris, & Roland, thanks for stopping by.
Roland thanks for the information on Mr. Muggli; I think Kurt would like us all to believe they invented the angle lock vise.
Chris I’m not sure about the availability of completed vises, my guess is no but you would have to check with M&M. I can tell you that it is a fun project and a great kit that comes with not only the castings but all the hardware and materials.
I built mine almost eight years ago, I did a build thread on the other site but I don’t think I ever did one here on MEM. I could if there is interest?
Here are a couple pictures of my Model Builders Vise.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/normal_MM_Vise_055.jpg)
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/normal_MM_Vise_056.jpg)
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/normal_Powarm_011.jpg)
I also scaled down a Wilton Powrarm Jr. and made one for the vise
Thanks again for checking in.
Dave
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I would love to see the build thread!
Do you think it is do-able on a small (Sherline) lathe/mill? Or does it involve turning larger diameter parts?
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That's beautiful Dave. How much use does it see?
Bill
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Hey Chris, It's not very big I don't see any reason why it couldn't be built on Sherline tools. The Sherline lathe will swing the movable jaw over the bed but not the cross slide. This piece needs to be turned and bored. I will try to get a build thread put together in the near future.
Thanks Bill, It doesn't see much use because I don't want to bang it up. :Lol: But with the 41xx steel castings, bronze nut and Acme screw it is very capable of being put to work.
Thanks again guys,
Dave
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Great - thats the key piece of information, swinging that jaw piece. Probably would need an arbor or plate to hold it, but that is very do-able.
Looking forward to seeing the thread!
:cheers: :popcorn:
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Definitely a cool project! The molds are beautiful!
& great work on the drawings for these vises Dave!
John
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Chris, don't get distracted. :popcorn:
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Chris, don't get distracted. :popcorn:
No worry. Just need something to make Zee think I won't build the Stanley after the Marion! :ThumbsDown:
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Perfect size for the Aciera F1
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Definitely a cool project! The molds are beautiful!
& great work on the drawings for these vises Dave!
John
John, thanks so much for the very nice complements, they are appreciated.
Dave
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How about we start the week off with a couple nice sets of castings.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_006.jpg)
The foundry sure does a nice job on them.
Dave
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Wow, nice and smooth surfaces, looking forward to seeing them come together!
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What are the two materials Dave? CI and bronze?
Bill
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what a great project and set of castings, nice work! I've been modeling a D20 which I thought would be a good vise for a small mill and had no idea this resource existed.
Any info on availability and price of the castings?
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Thanks guys,
Bill the steel castings are 4140 (very tough and strong) and the other set is Bronze. Due to the very high cost I'm not sure the bronze castings are going to be available, but Roland would have to answer that for sure.
Mcgyver; Roland will also have to answer your questions on price and availability, I think the castings have a long lead time but I'm not sure how much.
Dave
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Ideally, one would need a surface grinder for the steel castings I would think. Certainly very nice looking castings!!
Bill
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Those are really nice looking castings. Looking forward to the machining part!
Jo: pretty castings..would make a nice addition...& Very useful as well. :stickpoke:
John
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Ideally, one would need a surface grinder for the steel castings I would think. Certainly very nice looking castings!!
Bill
Yes for the best accuracy and finish, you are correct. Fortunately I have access to a nice one in the shop where I work. The flat surfaces could also be carefully lapped, that is my plan for the bronze vise.
Dave
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Those are really nice looking castings. Looking forward to the machining part!
Jo: pretty castings..would make a nice addition...& Very useful as well. :stickpoke:
I had taken note :-X I am waiting to hear about the delivery times/prices and don't forget we slap import duty on them as well :(
Jo
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Nice Castings! 4150 is a challenge, but doable. Are they stress relieved?
Dave
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Hey Dave
I'm not sure if the foundry stress relieves these castings or not, I'm thinking they might as they do mostly gun parts for vintage single shot rifles. This is the same material that the Model Builders Vise castings are made from and I had no trouble machining them. It actually machines very nice, not like 12L14 though. :Lol:
Dave
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Thanks Dave,
I'm glad they know what they're doing! 4150 can be tougher than woodpecker lips even at 35 RC form, so annealing it is a very good thing
I had some big mobile truck components made from 4150 once, and the shop that got the bid from the purchasing agent, had no idea what they had, so they blanked all the parts with a torch! :lolb:
They used up every piece of their carbide trying to cut it until they finally spoke to me! :facepalm:.... can you say glass hard?
I then introduced a new heat treating term to them.....Anneal.
SMH....
Dave
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does it say 4140 what is 41 50
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4140 and 4150 are very similar, 4150 has a just a bit more carbon in it..
Both are considered low alloys. 4150 is a bit harder to machine. It will harden to a bit harder condition.
Dave
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Hi Guys
It seems that the logical place to start is the Swivel Base
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_007.jpg)
The Base is held by the chucking lug and indicated both radially and axially. The base was faced just enough to clean it up and the extra lug cut off flush. The remainder of the lug was machined into the raised boss seen in the later photos.
If you look closely you can see a small raised boss where the indicator point is on the outside edge. I machined the periphery of the base to just remove this boss. Personal preference but I think it looks more like the original with the boss removed.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_008.jpg)
The base was flipped around and indicated in. The chucking lug was carefully machined away and the cavity machined using a boring bar. The base was also faced to proper thickness and the bevel for the numbers machined. The Swivel Pin hole was also drilled and reamed for a press fit on the pin.
At this point the groove for ½ of the Swivel Bolt key way could have been added, but my plan was to do it in the mill using a key seat cutter.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_009.jpg)
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_010.jpg)
Here are a couple pictures of the two Swivel Bases with the lathe work completed.
Note; I took a very light facing cut across the surface where the mounting bolts go, just to level the surface. It was then bead blasted so it is not real obvious.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_011.jpg)
A pair of soft jaws were machined to hold the swivel base for the next two operations.
Mounted upside down and using the swivel pin hole as my datum. The key ways, key retainer screw holes, bolt clearance holes, and swivel center mounting holes were all added.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_012.jpg)
Here is a picture of the features listed above.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_013.jpg)
The with the swivel base flipped over and dialed back in the Swivel Bolt key way was machined using a key seat cutter. One half of the keyway is in the base and the other half is in the removable Swivel Center.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_014~0.jpg)
Here is a screen shot that shows the how the swivel center mounts and forms the rest of the key way for the swivel bolts.
That’s all for now, thanks for checking in.
Dave
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Those look just perfect Dave. You got a lot done!!
Bill
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Dave, are you using CNC for cutting the key slot in the base? I might use the lathe for that cut.
Dan
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Thanks Bill.
Dan, yes I did use the CNC for the secondary operations on the Swivel Base.
Thanks for checking in guys.
Dave
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Hi Guys
Work continues on the vises.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_015.jpg)
The Swivel Center started out as a slice of 12L14 steel. Chucked up faced and turned to proper diameter; the relief for the Swivel Bolts was also added and the center hole drilled and reamed.
This is a slip fit over the center pin which is pressed into the Swivel Base.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_016.jpg)
Flipped around, the top is faced to thickness and the detail added.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_017.jpg)
Set up on a fixture plate in the mill, the mounting holes are drilled and counter bored.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_018.jpg)
I didn’t take any in process pictures of the Swivel Bolts; here is a shot of the completed bolts. Notice the curves that match the circular channel in the Swivel Base assembly. The ends of the bolts were machined using the CNC. I had left them oversized from the lathe, mounted them in a collet and cut the profile.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_019.jpg)
Here are the assembled Swivel Bases.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_020.jpg)
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_021.jpg)
Starting on the Body castings, the extra material left from the foundry was carefully removed in the band saw.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_022.jpg)
The Body casting was set on parallels and the cored Swivel Pin hole was dialed in. The Body was faced to .250” thick measured in the area between the rails. All the holes and key ways were done in one operation. The center hole which is undersized was milled to within a few thousandths and then reamed to size. In this picture all the hole locations have just been spot drilled
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_023.jpg)
Here is the Body with the underside machine work completed except for deburring.
The Bodies came out pretty good, but after doing these Roland and I had some discussion about the best way to insure the bottom features are aligned with the rails and boss for the screw. Roland came up with a better order of operations to insure this, and has made these instructions available along with the plans.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_024.jpg)
It’s good to see the Body fitting the Swivel base so nicely.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_025.jpg)
Notice the little bump where the index line will be engraved, there is one on each side. These bumps were machined at the same time as the rest of features on the bottom of the Body and are machined to the same radius as the upper surface of the Swivel Base.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_025a.jpg)
A simple fixture was designed and machined to hold the Body for the rest of the machine work. The fixture has keys that engage the key slots on the bottom of the Body. It holds the body square and parallel and includes a center hole for indicating. The cut outs on the sides are for work on the index lines and the little bumps where they reside.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_025b.jpg)
The Body was mounted on the fixture and faced to thickness.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_026.jpg)
Standing the Body and fixture up on end, the hole for the screw was drilled. The surface for the Collar was also spot faced to clean up the cast surface.
By using the fixture I knew were my center line was and didn’t have to mess around with indicating a pin through the center pivot hole.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_027.jpg)
The Body and fixture were set back down and indicated using a gauge pain and coax indicator.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_028.jpg)
Some machining fun! The inside of the rails were machined, this used two different cutters, a 3/16” end mill was used for the full depth cuts then a 1/6” end mill was used to go back and nibble the area on each side of the screw boss until it just blended with the other surface.
Then a key seat cutter was used to machine the cuts under the rails where the nut will bear.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_029.jpg)
The machine work on the top of the body is mostly complete
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_030.jpg)
The key way for the Stationary jaw was also machined in this set up.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_031.jpg)
Last operation on the base is to counter bore the screw hole for the thrust bearing. As luck would have it I had the proper counter bore in the drawer but I did send it out to be sharpened. It is nice to have a quality sharpening service nearby.
Well that is about it for now; thanks for checking in.
Dave
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Nice looking parts Dave! That vise would look awesome on my F1!
Dave
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Excellent, great looking parts!
:popcorn:
Side question, will you be posting the pics from the rest of your build of the other vise on that thread? Looking forward to seeing the rest of that one too!
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Very nice setups Dave.
-Bob
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Great progress Dave. And beautiful pictures as always!!
Bill
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Hi Dave, great pictures of an excellent Job.
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Thanks for the nice comments guys!
Chris, I will try to get an update on the Model Builders Vise thread posted this week.
Dave
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OK so they have a bronze one and a 4140 one....right?
they look sweet!
Dave
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The finishes are amazing.
Beautiful work. :ThumbsUp:
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Dave, beautiful work as usual. Now you know I have the other machine vise set and I guess now I'll have to pony up some AMEX points on this one also. Tell Luella I'll be in touch :lolb:
Cletus
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Thanks Guys,
Dave, yes there were some bronze castings, and the others are 4130 cast steel. Roland can clarify but I think that there is not going to be any more Bronze castings available due to the very high cost. There will be the cast steel kits available in the future but at the present time the foundry has a long lead time, I'm not sure when exactly, I'm guessing later this year.
Eric, I'm sure LuElla will happy to hear from you!
Zee, thanks for stopping by, I appreciate it.
Dave
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Dave
Really nice work. I certainly appreciate the time you take for the pictures and set-ups which will help me a lot. Hope you can take some pics of how you do numbers on that angle, I have a few ideas for a setup but would like to see yours.
Bob
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Hi Guys
Bob, thanks for stopping by and the nice comments, yes I plan to post some pictures of the engraving operation.
Next up is the machining of the nuts screws and thrust bearings.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_032.jpg)
The nut castings like all the others need little to no fettling. I went over these with a fine file and then bead blasted them.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_033.jpg)
The nuts were put in the mill vise upside down and clamped on the boss. As you can see they were set on some cardboard strips from the back of a tablet to be used as packing. The nuts were indicated along their length and adjusted to run true. This will insure the as cast features are in alignment with the machined surfaces.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_034.jpg)
The bottom surface was faced to thickness and then the sides were machined to the proper width. The sides were machined to be symmetric to the boss.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_035.jpg)
The nuts have been deburred and flipped over. The rebates are machined on each side, once again making sure to keep them symmetric to the cast boss.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_036.jpg)
In preparation for drilling a very light skim was taken across front face of the nut.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_038.jpg)
After drilling the 1/4"-28 left hand thread is tapped. The tap had to be ground back to the square drive to have enough clearance.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_037.jpg)
Using a small precision vise at the proper angle the large bevels were machined on the bottom of the nuts.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_039.jpg)
The last operation on the nuts was to carefully remove the cast radius on the angled surface of the boss. This is for clearance needed by the ball segment.
This should have been done before the large bevels were machined, then the nut could have simply been clamped on the sides and set at the proper angle. I didn’t realize at the time the this radius was going to need to be removed.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_040.jpg)
The screws are machined form 1144 stress proof steel. I had done the first operations on the CNC lathe at work, including the single pointed left and right hand threads. I must have been having fun, looks like I made a few extras. :lolb:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_041.jpg)
The next operation was to mill the hex for the vise handle. I used a collet fixture and had the screw standing vertically, then the CNC was use to drive the cutter around the part.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_042.jpg)
The last operation for the screws was to machine away the excess material.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_043.jpg)
The stock is removed creating a relief behind the threads for the nut.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_044.jpg)
Early on Roland and I both searched for a proper thrust bearing for the vise and neither one of us were able to come up with anything small enough. So I decided to see if I could make on that would work. There wasn’t much real estate to work with in this area; the 1.5mm balls were chosen because they were readily available and would fit in the space.
Here the ball cage has been drilled in the mill, and now in the lathe it is turned, bored and parted off.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_045.jpg)
Here is a family shot of two bearing assemblies. The bearing races were machined form O1 tool steel, hardened and ground.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_046.jpg)
The thrust bearing is assembled on the screw and packed with grease on final assembly.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_047.jpg)
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_048.jpg)
Here are a couple shots showing how the nuts fit into the vise bodies.
Thanks for checking in.
Dave
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Excellent sequences and explanations Dave!!
:popcorn:
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Beautiful work Dave. Those look fantastic!!
Bill
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Wow. The works is just awesome.
Really makes me feel inadequate...but some day...some day!
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You would never think these are scaled down versions by looking at the details. Nice job on those thrust bearings!
Real nice work!
John
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awesome !
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Thanks for all the nice comments guys, they are appreciated.
Dave
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Now when you getting those done so I can perform extensive consumer testing on the Aciera F1?....
I have a perfect example of the Aciera vise.....perfect in every way....and it's terrible really....I want a mini Kurt!...
50mm wide 20mm high jaws on the Aciera
http://www.lathes.co.uk/aciera/index.html
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As I told Zee: trying to catch up. Dude, if you ever decide to give up the machining trade; you could go into the presentation of products business. The work is awesome as always, the pictures are crisp and clear, and the narrative is spot on. I have refrained, but, guess I need to get my order in and put them in the aging area with the machinist vice :facepalm:. Just damn nice work Dave.
Eric
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The new DX6's are out now Dave. I will have to look but I think there is a DX4 as well.
Just checked, there is a DX4 but it's only 40.00 less than the DX6 if you can handle the larger size now weighing in at 65 lbs.
Bill
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Thanks Eric
I appreciate the nice comments, and that you take time from your busy day to look at my projects.
I think the castings are still out a ways so you have some time to ponder it. :lolb:
:cheers:
Dave
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Hi Guys
Work continues on the Mill vise project and the next item/s in line are the jaws. The moveable and stationary jaws are cast in one piece. They could be cut in two and machined separately but what fun would that be? I decided to go ahead and do as much work as possible with them attached to each other.
The only part of the casting that doesn’t get any machining is the internal cavity where the nut fits. Keeping this in mind it is important to keep this feature reasonably square with the machined surfaces of the jaw.
Starting out the top surface was skimmed just enough to clean it up.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_049.jpg)
Here the jaw casting is set up and the cavity indicated in; after which the up facing surface gets a light skim to clean it up.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_050.jpg)
Once the end was square with the cavity the sides could be machined; here the casting is set up in the mill vise and squared up using the previously machined surface.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_051.jpg)
Both sides were skimmed just enough to clean up the surface. I messed around with some different ways to measure the cavity to edge dimension. Putting the casting in a precision vise and using an adjustable parallel seemed to give me good repeatable readings.
The idea here was to determine how much more material to remove from each side to bring the part to final width and have the cavity centered.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_050a.jpg)
After the jaw was machined to the proper width the ends could be machined to bring the length to the proper dimension.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_052.jpg)
After the jaw casting was brought to size the rest of the features could be machined.
A program was created that covered all these features in one operation.
Here is one of the bronze castings in the vise ready to go.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_053.jpg)
Here it is after machining; the blind 5-40 screw holes will be tapped off line.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_054.jpg)
Here is one of the steel jaw castings after machining the bottom. 3d tool paths were used to machine the arc and V in the center.
You can see the area between the two jaws where there is plenty of room to saw them in two. We have a water cooled abrasive saw in the shop at work; that is what I used to cut them in two.
Some Kurt vises use a separate key to locate and align the stationary jaw and some have the key as an integral part of the jaw. When Marvin made the molds, he allowed for the jaw key to be machined as part of the jaw; so that is the way I decided to go.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_055.jpg)
Here is group shot showing before and after. Care was exercised to insure a proper sliding fit between the moveable jaw and the vise body.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_057.jpg)
After the jaws were separated they were machined to final dimension and the holes for the jaw plates drilled and tapped. Moveable jaw shown here. The center hole is where the dog point set screw goes that locks the jaw into the nut and is also used to adjust the backlash of the jaw.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_058.jpg)
And here is the stationary jaw.
After the jaws are assembled on the vise body the top surface is machined to final thickness.
More to follow and thanks for checking in.
Dave
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You just always do impressive work, don't you, Dave? :)
Just love seeing your work.
Kim
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Really nice work - camera and machining ;-)
Simon.
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Outstanding work Dave! If you don't mind me asking, what kind of camera and light setting are you using?
Each shot is so clear and crisp.
gbritnell
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Loving this thread Dave. Nice to see the update!!
Bill
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Thanks for the nice comments guys.
George the camera I use for most of my pictures is a Nikon Coolpix P530. I pretty much shoot everything in macro mode with the exposure and f stop set to auto. I do turn off the task lights on the machines or point them away, and try to never use the flash. I also have a Canon Power Shot point and shoot camera that I use at work for the pictures I take there, I don't remember the model though.
Thanks again,
Dave
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Dave some awesome work as always coming from your shop, but bud sprinkle a few metal chips around so we know you did some actual work......... :lolb: just to damn clean man with awesome photos.... but you know .......I.........like.......... :Love:
:drinking-41:
Don
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Thanks Don!
I'm glad to see you checking in.
Dave
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Hi Guys
Here are a few shots of the jaw plate machining; the jaw plates are machined form 01 tool steel and heat treated.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_059.jpg)
The first operation was to profile the plates and put the screw holes and counter bores in. I neglected to take a picture of the second operation; the parts were flipped over and faced to thickness.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_060.jpg)
The jaw plates were bagged up and heat treated in my small furnace.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_061.jpg)
The bags were carefully opened and the plates quenched in oil.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_062.jpg)
After tempering, the front and back surfaces were ground to clean them up and insure that they are flat.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_063.jpg)
After the front and backs were ground they were mounted on a fixture in pairs and the top and bottom surfaces were ground.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_064.jpg)
Here is a trial assembly of all the parts made so far.
More to follow.
Thanks,
Dave
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Hi Guys
Below are quite a few pictures outlining the steps I took to machine the vise handles.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_065.jpg)
The handle castings were a little banana shaped from the foundry; it appears that maybe they let the waxes get warm and they warped before they got around to casting them. Not a big deal the 4140 steel is very strong and springy so it can be straightened without fear of breaking.
The two piece handle was cast as one piece with the internal hex cored in the yoke. I decided to start out working on it by leaving it in one piece. Here I’m doing some final straightening; the initial straightening was done in my arbor press.
One note; because of the difficulty in getting good castings Roland is now having these cast as separate parts.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_065a.jpg)
A mandrel was made that is a tight push fit in the cored hex of the yoke.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_066.jpg)
With the yoke end pushed on the mandrel and supported by a live center the profiling of the yoke is done. I also chose to clean up the tapered section with some emery cloth.
The center hole was put in with the casting held in a 4 jaw chuck, no picture of that operation.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_067.jpg)
Here are 3 of the handles ready for the next operation.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_068.jpg)
With the casting flipped around and chucked on the excess stock, the yoke is parted off.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_069.jpg)
A split bushing was made to hold the yoke to drill for the pin; the bushing is also counter bored on the back side to clear the larger part of the yoke. This allowed me to slide the yoke in from the back end of the bushing with enough sticking out that I could face and chamfer the end; this was done in the lathe. I could have done the OD chamfer during the parting operation but not the ID. This makes a better looking part as everything is done in one setup.
Here the yoke is aligned with the collet block using a gauge pin and dial indicator.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_070.jpg)
In the mill the cored hole is dialed in, drilled and reamed for a slip fit on the dowel pin.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_070a.jpg)
The aluminum ball is held in a collet and backed up with a collet stop; it is faced, drilled and taped.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_071.jpg)
A couple sets of jaw plates were made to match the taper of the handle, always good to have a spare.
These were done using a ball end mill and 3d tool path in the mill.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_072.jpg)
Using the jaw plates the handle is indicated in
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_072a.jpg)
Then turned and ready for threading.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_073.jpg)
The threads were single pointed
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_074.jpg)
Checking the fit of the ball.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_075.jpg)
Here are some of the parts so far.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_076.jpg)
The handle needs a chamfer where the round meets the square. Here running the lathe in reverse and cutting on the back side a carbide boring bar is used for this operation.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_077.jpg)
The jaw plates will be used to do the finish machining on the square end of the handle.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_078.jpg)
Clamping lightly the flat is aligned, then tightened up
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_079.jpg)
Next the cored hole is dialed in.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_080.jpg)
The handle is rounded and the hole drilled and reamed for a press fit on the dowel pin
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_081.jpg)
After bead blasting and assembly it is time for a test fit on the vise, I’m quite pleased with how the handles turned out.
Thanks for checking in.
Dave
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Lot of work in those handles but they sure look the part and a lot prettier than the original Kurt handles too!!
Bill
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That vise is delightful!!!!
Dave
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Well, if that’s the best you can do, I guess we’ll have to live with it :lolb: :lolb:; at least you got rid of the swarf this time 8). Seriously, awesome as always old pal. Hey, have you looked at Lipton’s sensitive drill attachment video he just posted? He had the lever printed by Shapeway: just thought about it when I was reading this. 21st century “casting” I guess :thinking:.
Cletus
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Well, if that’s the best you can do, I guess we’ll have to live with it :lolb: :lolb:; at least you got rid of the swarf this time 8). Seriously, awesome as always old pal. Hey, have you looked at Lipton’s sensitive drill attachment video he just posted? He had the lever printed by Shapeway: just thought about it when I was reading this. 21st century “casting” I guess :thinking:.
Cletus
Ok now brotha...you're holdin out on me ....send me a link to this sensitive drill attachment.
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Thanks guys!
Love Tom's videos, I did watch the new one on the sensitive drill attachment.
I will keep trying harder, honest I will. :lolb:
Dave
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Some slick machining there Dave.
-Bob
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Really beautiful work there dave. :ThumbsUp:
John
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All I can afford to do is drool.... :P
Pete
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Just astounding work, Dave, as always!
You do an amazing job!
Kim
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Top job - really crisp pictures, nice write-up and outstanding work!
Simon.
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Bob, John, Pete, Kim, & Simon; thanks for looking in and also the very nice comments.
I do appreciate them.
Dave
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Very Nicely made and documented Dave.
I hope your entry of it into the Alibre Competition does well.
https://www.alibre.com/vote/
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Voted. :ThumbsUp:
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Me too :ThumbsUp:
Bill
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One more :ThumbsUp:
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Thanks for the support guys!
Not much chance of winning but I thought it would be fun to enter. I entered the Model Builders vise, and 4 post oiler last year. This year they did it a little different, you up loaded your files to their Drop Box account and they chose which three to use. They came up with the name Table Vise, that was not my doing.
Last year you could upload as many files to the user gallery as you wanted. Maybe the way they did it this year would level the field some, I don't know for sure.
If they do it again next year I may have something more substantial to enter. ;)
One thing is for sure there are some very nice entries this year.
Dave
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Looks great so far!
Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk
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Hi and welcome to the forum ride blue. Please take a minute to post an introduction in the "introduce yourself" section so that we will know about your interests in model engines.
Bill
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Dave, For some reason I've missed this thread before and only just caught up. Absolutely amazing quality..both workmanship and photos/write up. What more can I say? AWSOME :praise2:
Regards Terry
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Most of the entries are software models without the real thing. I voted only for those that had been built.
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Thanks guys, I appreciate the nice comments.
Dave
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Hi Everyone
Here is a long overdue update on the Mill Vise project.
The next item to tackle is the engraving on the swivel base and reference lines on the body.
My plan was to use a dividing head set at an angle so that for the most part the engraving was done parallel to the table of the mill. The numbers will be on the curve but with using the spring loaded engraver from 2L https://www.2linc.com/ it will be able deal with the curve of the casting.
(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_082.jpg)
I started by making a dummy piece from steel so I could double check my programs and dividing head set up. The numbering pattern that we decided to use goes from 0 to 90 then back to 0; this is repeated on both halves of the circle. Kurt has used different patterns over the years, but our sample used this pattern so that is why it was chosen.
(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_083.jpg)
Once satisfied that I could pull this off, a fixture was made that the swivel base could be mounted to. It has raised keys machined into the surface that the keyways on the bottom of the swivel base align to. Here an indicator and parallel are being used to align the fixture for the starting point. The first zero is 10 degrees off of horizontal to align with the index marks on the body. So that will be the starting point for the numbers.
(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_084.jpg)
I used a sharp pointed diamond engraving tool with the spindle not running to do the engraving. I did all the lines first, all 360 of them; then came back and added the numbers. It was pretty much index the part, hit cycle start, rinse and repeat. I don’t sit at my machines but I did this time; that, was a lot of turns on the dividing head. Doing the numbers was pretty much the same drill, I created the numbers in Bob CAD each on a different layer as they all shared the same origin. Each number was programmed as a separate operation in the CAM tree then after posting the code a program stop (M00) was manually added between each number sequence to allow for indexing. I really need to think about building that 4th axis, I already have the electronics in the cabinet to support it.
(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_085.jpg)
Here is a close up of the finished engraving, the diamond tool raised a small burr that was carefully removed with vary fine sand paper. This is pushing the limits of the engraving tooling and my machine that has a few thou backlash in the ball screws. The letters are only .05” tall and the lines are .04” and .09” for the long ones. Over all I very happy with how it turned out, I feel that It is very clean and not over done.
(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_086.jpg)
Next up was to engrave the reference lines on the body casting. When I designed the machining fixture for the base I had this operation in mind. The fixture allows the body to be rotated around the pivot pin while setting the 10 degree angle. A drill blank is inserted through the holes in the fixture and vise body. The pin is resting on top of the vise jaws and a 10 degree angle block is used to set the angle. Then it is only a matter of picking up the center of the drill blank and engraving the line.
(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_087.jpg)
Here the diamond tool is held in a collet and while running the Y axis back and forth the knee is very carefully raised until the line is cut.
Thanks for checking in,
Dave
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I need to build one of those steel ones for the Aciera F1. I should consider that......
:thinking:
Dave
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I need to build one of those steel ones for the Aciera F1. I should consider that......
:thinking:
Dave
And with your new toy in the shop it may simplify many of the operations. :D
Dave
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Dave
You would start this project up again, I am working on three now. Guess I need to add this back in. I think I started a thread on it once.
I appriciate the number setup, I have the tilting indexer so guessed that was how you would attack it. I will need to stamp the numbers so need a setup to hold the stamps, will need some playing around.
To make things worse I am following your build on the other vise, - not sure about 5 projects I will run out of bench space!
I really enjoy following along.
Bob
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Hi Bob
I did 4 of them, two bronze and two steel; yes it is quite an undertaking. 1440 divisions not including the engraving of the numbers. :o
Glad to hear that I'm not the only one with multiple projects on the bench. :lolb:
Thanks for following along.
Dave
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Dave
You would start this project up again, I am working on three now. Guess I need to add this back in. I think I started a thread on it once.
I appriciate the number setup, I have the tilting indexer so guessed that was how you would attack it. I will need to stamp the numbers so need a setup to hold the stamps, will need some playing around.
To make things worse I am following your build on the other vise, - not sure about 5 projects I will run out of bench space!
I really enjoy following along.
Bob
Found it Bob now you don't have any excuse. :Lol:
http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,8258.0.html
Dave
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You just got to respect a man who’s mill is always clean and does museum quality work. Always a pleasure to see updates Dave!.... : :Love:
:drinking-41:
Don
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Wow, Dave! That is some fine engraving! Incredibly neat and tidy. You should be proud if that!
Kim
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[/quote]
Found it Bob now you don't have any excuse. :Lol:
http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,8258.0.html
Dave
[/quote]
Thanks for the push - I think!!
Bob
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Build your 4th axis with a harmonic drive and you won't need to worry about backlash. If you start with a rotary table that has a worm gear, both backlash and wear will be a problem. And likely too heavy to tilt for a job like this.
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Thanks Don & Kim,
Bob, I'm looking forward to seeing some progress pictures of your Vises.
Kirk, I don't think that I would waste my time trying to convert a rotary table, The harmonic drive would certainly remove the backlash but I wonder how durable it would be? That fine tooth flex gear seems like to would be prone to breakage? I think a unit that would hold a 5C collet would cover most anything I would do with it. I also have 3 and 4 jaw chucks mounted on 5C arbors that could be used. Maybe I should by a motor and encoder and get that running, then I could think about the hardware part.
Dave
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Tormachs A axis is a harmonic drive by the way
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Is it direct drive between the motor and spindle or is there a belt in between?
Dave
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It appears to be direct
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https://tormach.com/microarc-4-4th-axis-38412.html
Hollow shaft stepper motor allows stock to be fed through the center.
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Backlash is specd at 18 arc seconds....
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Hi Everyone
Continuing on with work on the Mill Vise.
(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_097.jpg)
I had picked up this nice little block from a retired tool maker along with some other cool shop made items awhile back. Curious about its accuracy I took it to work where we have a very well equipped metrology lab. Using a Square Master and 50 millionths indicator I checked every surface on this little guy. I was quite pleased to find everything square and parallel to within a tenth; the ol boy that ground this really had some serious skill. :praise2:
I made the set of toe clamps form O1 steel, then hardened and ground them. I also designed and printed a tray to keep everything together.
(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_088.jpg)
I didn’t take a lot of photos of the grinding but here are a few. The tooling block was used to hold the jaws for most of the grinding operations. In this picture it is being set up to grind the sides of the moveable jaw parallel to machined guides.
(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_088a.jpg)
Then it is only a matter of rotating the block to grind the jaw plate face square to the sides of the jaw.
(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_089.jpg)
After the jaws were ground and assembled, the jaws were preloaded using one of the ground jaw plates. Then the tops of the jaws were dusted off to make them pretty, and parallel to the bottom of the vise.
(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_090.jpg)
After lots of tedious masking the castings are ready for paint.
(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_092.jpg)
Everything was given a light coat of etching primer.
More later, thanks for checking in.
Dave
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:ThumbsUp:
Nice work Dave!
What kind of grinding wheel are you using?
I'm used to seeing the white "carborundum" wheels on surface grinders, usually a 46 grit for GP grinding. Of course this varies with material & hardness. Lots of options....
Great looking tooling block set up.
John
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Hi John
Thanks for the nice comments.
The wheel is 46G aluminum oxide, if I remember correctly H hardness. I don't do a lot of grinding but this wheel seems to work great for most of what I need to do.
Dave
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This is a great thread, really nice work Dave. The engraving looks brilliant
Sent from my G3121 using Tapatalk
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Thank you, I appreciate the nice comments.
Dave
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Hi Everyone
Well time kind of got away from me and I forgot to come back and finish out this build.
(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_093.jpg)
After the castings were primed they were lightly sanded and then painted with catalyzed acrylic urethane. The color is a custom mix that my coworker and I mixed up; we had some dark blue and some white, we did our best to match the Kurt blue. It is not an exact match but pretty good considering that I didn’t have to go out and purchase a tin of expensive paint.
(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_094.jpg)
Here are the parts ready for assembly; the nuts were painted black to add some contrast.
(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_095.jpg)
Starting the assembly process here are the two steel vises.
(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_096.jpg)
Here are the four vises completed, the camera did wash out the blue a little bit.
(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10012/Vise_097~0.jpg)
And the glamour shot.
This was a very enjoyable project, from the CAD modeling and drawing creation to all the interesting machining and finishing operations.
Thanks for following along, I hope that you enjoyed the build.
Dave
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Those are really sweet looking little vises, Dave!
Thanks for sharing your build with us. I always enjoy following along with whatever your building!
Kim
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Terrific work!
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Great Job Dave! A fun journey for sure. Boy, if those aren't the cutest little things...
I really like that color of blue.
:ThumbsUp:
John
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Nice vices, lovely finish and well photographed :ThumbsUp: Thank you. Terry
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Damn Dave those are quality looking vise bud. Awesome job and built thread...
:cheers:
Don
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Great job, Dave. I really like the shade of blue.
Regards,
Chuck