Model Engine Maker

Engines => From Plans => Topic started by: mikehinz on January 21, 2019, 01:16:06 AM

Title: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: mikehinz on January 21, 2019, 01:16:06 AM
This is probably a bit of insanity on my part but I decided to build 2 engines sort of / kind of at the same time.  I decided that my 5th engine was going to be an I/C engine and the common wisdom on the internet said that the Webster was the best 1st I/C engine to start with.  I considered several, including one of the Upshur engines, a Kerzel, or maybe the Howell Powerhouse.  But based on the volume of builds that I found and a careful examination of the various plans, lead me to decide on the Webster.  I have most of the raw stock needed but I'll have to order ignition parts (most probably the S/S CDI system) and a carburetor.  I'll also go for a Viton o'ring vs CI rings. 

Since I tend to model everything I build, I also figured that process would give me something to do if I wasn't working on the PMR #1 engine.  I'd just had a substantial bit cut off my back and raising my left arm is difficult at the moment so I figured the CAD work and drawing preparation would be a good fill-in.  My plan didn't exactly go to schedule as I guess I'm getting better at Fusion 360 modeling.  I substantially finished the CAD model yesterday and today and got it pretty well animated in order to check for any interference.  And here it is!  I made the cylinder semi-transparent just to show the movement a bit more clearly. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbDm3JQH-7A

I've started on the 2D drawings but they'll take me a bit to complete.  I also order the gears, ignition bits and carb this coming week. 

Also, I will need to ask a few question on this engine as there were some places that things weren't completely clear to me on the original drawings and during the modeling process I didn't fully resolve the issues.  So maybe tomorrow I'll post to this thread with my initial set of questions.

All for today!

Enjoy!

Mike
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on January 21, 2019, 01:39:57 AM
Good choice Mike. Will be looking forward to the build.

Bill
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: mikehinz on February 13, 2019, 04:10:15 PM
Well, I've not been on the forum for  a bit of time due to various personal issues going on but I did managed to make a bit of progress on this engine build and so I thought I'd do a quick update!

I had the 4J chuck installed doing some other work so I decided to start on the Webster flywheel.  My brother had given me a few old cast iron weights for raw material, so I decided if I could use one of those for the flywheel. 

I didn't take a pix of the flywheel before I started but here the first pix after i got a start on the first side.  I chucked it up in the 4J gripping a little less than 1/2 the width and turned the OD down to 3.85" (just a bit larger than the print calls for) and turned the very rough thru-hole to just under 1.5".  My theory is that I'll turn a plug to the required dimension(s) and press it into place.  My brother has a large hydraulic press and I think using that plus some Loctite I can get the plug to be secure within the body of the flywheel. 
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/7VscweZOaolToFxTz7Y55BHBJPgoOXJeWSyN2LwhjSl-3wgEYNIWq6J-QqxJqEES5Rh73agB2L9wl9WsXC-aYOLALkg553h0WJuK8AI0-8XVWdu7etytw9OUI57PQMHr9eFUmDMVpBvqIyK6hrpFesSzmPnvxu7k0tkUMvSICCl5g8-an79ODnH7fsp9LMYYTe8huNvMN8Psgwg-TDfYa7Un3gGiEotaT6bRN0CCtKzu7yzx1frtPgkH9ItN-mL6VN14rnoFdontbQtWwgyliBfOiTJt6TRteoqH--tmIkw6D46oVSF0gIhd8YTUjQPlwbdTjT8Gjz9Ij-fHjBRQS3v622uEf2_v4ilBLf1hTacFrcSfCeZN-sfnHeDrTtf_2yTIQOdYvyJg8tQI1v2T56AtFaDoV2rYg0VecySb6bCvKsD1iOVGIftm3GoPzbxDiyyDNX9rx9ITLeZno6iF06jLbkEUIjlH-mu_ygsrlhPngjq-c5vIeTITkE8hjlstJh3uQ_J7L1iIi8SEhgrNOyqP57TpEEivZftY9IbITDGFjKUJncjz3hb8K3qnK9qOGFF3EWbaV6Kk82MrJaXBA2VmjZqzw7HdULUVC_UHXPJV3SwlBD_I_ouX8WUqBZ2fp9SyfV_P-K5Fcyp4zPeirTsZz9guXe4gURRtdncl7K2Vmg5xmzaUCNUU5MmiAW_Zy5gvJIXDK5acZEEJJzj94998=w687-h915-no)

After i finished the first side, I turned the casting around in the 4J and indicated the center to run true using a DTI plus I spaced out the raw piece using a thick feeling gage. 
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/xayyyr-NmVGGbZVK4MbZBgNNTfjNf2ARrQGRxOvJwcx-uZm8QbAKe4YTihCkmSTf4inwE_aiTtOJlzWdNsIihF97U7g58DxviP9PA6DsKpj6QdR6war6slwOBx4AgiVYd9PGb9yOjRm1-vetlPfYEmkUZy3_6XUIhbHv-KQDhBc8EQ-sJiToSjBdnKe43EoS8Th-KESNyKqKymYveC7jt75t3ByriloPM-lz3OxkgjM-rW_lLq0LMBz-dUDrdIJ7dAQAF4v4EZDzmlz0BsZCXSOg-friEYqiLP-f8uKt_Uj3wEkrSnnA7jwYNkXthds57RDQxHjNd8BVR3QTHu11VJKVtD222A3UYbQjsdpOm29JDPRnhtM7hyQXdvN_xfQV9h8EbtVhQZ3S0EsYq1GOBRq2yz3h91W7zRxK59qzAc8YNSXLbDoPUQZsHAZEyF3CWYOOY-mRfzWqn_iKaLVw4R7YLVqStQdz8AhND2RIEsxTVKcd5OEAEFY7HKP-yCbaXgy9Aouan4Xd27t-UB6vBT_RClpWzeq8O6zhxyRhrLH8N5wVYWBCry5z8CqHzizWXvLzMLdjMoKuAJCScVc2iERcpAMaqGRzS3i6ye8BCtStW-bSAeM1F6fIqd5KKiKc1At8Uj2gUCly9FfVkIOIDJoMSI0xioAG2Y3PW6V4rJTHZsGleu72gBAQHqey9KMSCYOT5nau0vpVjJ8eDigNTV5w=w687-h915-no)

A 2nd pix of the process I used.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/A8OgpFaFLpe15KUHLqC-yXHDuknxlSuzGR6m0_TqhSyrk4qkteUyVZItpqj2L3DjDd4Fc00F4OKh64R1meeADPBxTI8D3sVRQcEO8fgiSLeZLeQLHb3T8KPI72rqmXVzzkiNr1kNSQkOUvpRUP7NaEQmfPBfXntp7mu2iMi6ZhJMjcHDIenCw42hsua3DFrrZ2TKsr-1Te7vblba9BVLyGDUbUgVuZ5ropgZl7_3bCBMMv7SryD1vVnTv020K_9g7ZGcbZDvSzdXZy6A5BZ7_qwZcoKECCQ70RB7cVZCEOOR7xDE_jQXwRgtcDLvxXesL_mH-_wdFtb2clybyHVoMBISYBlw67ncNZdmI-lV_1D31ADnJdv4LvO-StUtJbhmLN6wEhPJ7aw6k2aZNmYV_Znmd3B43ejYh3NWnISango7FtQS4aXcuiZ7gjOi9ImdDhVTIzrgpuEPshPoO4zgeFQcU5tX_7YzVp4J2G252hDKfy7QrMxCzMcwM-msE0NZcnX8ejXD48AaEoBG0h93SLHEtMPu3dUPM1qC9jiT-GlQ77VAz25RqEcinfsNSLQq4yabDSGoI3OFDqz6owgIOakoK_-I4lLwoKkENsAfP3qI3uccbCS9aoUuPRanmAArFVMih_W2ox9cbKuQzqlF86_IM86J1OCiN2tyQF0m-sFig4Fgk9EFQvqBVT4e9IDiU9NjBIGJ35j_zmRYYILJ2rGb=w687-h915-no)

Lastly the part laid on the print.  The ID is about 1.47" and I've ordered some 1.5" stock to use to make the plug.  I'll show that operation as soon as the material arrives.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/0NZXaKnwrsR3qpW6BKwDdGdTveqq-iH2_Bi8U1oxbilGRNyw2OxK5CExKx1k9afJb8FGrDbVAV0d5JQ20WQjCLcRaNxeFyDaRlIErHX-59lZr7avy0nUuhyiR41fZi34TfdK3REWFYe69QlQLYAcqfgHzEeuzxZK3yKTwp5Z3cwaHmuyaJobU6hqNAxxDC8nRYnQMZjmSgwpoequQcQDi1FTk3Li4mA71YjZdgit_uQaSZwYyuqQhal1TUpusrowcSOLMmMOIpP_8_ys4PTwtD0OGjpCV4MYj-V8RkBIpvY_0IA1hgfrJ-yRQkHQTFl4nFArbVLIKx_FdSA5nVIQHu-6unGljURx9wkQo0tgwbR6nFTkErVtfIcC3IHIpOhBOChYKDpTjmpLqimkqDOrgUi3EO15O9el65tFPHmJz0p5KXSOXSdZgstdYrtUfDET2eGuhA-7XARKN4LhG46Ha2W356BvyrQwPRwfsp9FaZNoPoqc-oQSbd20l2Di5wxiz_T9jZBQgmzkjmYmRtIjJNFZqg0Puv3JsqG1Cvc85RPL3gdiS1IeGcHRr-3MPcCddJ2CenyEzkFGQ4UCxA3j2_Z_ztyLuzmHe6PrBuBKDjQ86pteyKFwQ2XaQ626VcRI-4JMg4fStpH4Mi1K0JU4uIGRX8W0HTBv8JTwUeUDYXtIXHkIp4J0FyhhFhyQj1loxWuQlnQsa2EvVGjeSq0eXEZp=w687-h915-no)

All for now.  I do have a few questions on this engine but I'll ask those in a separate reply so as to avoid confusion.

Enjoy!

Mike
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: mikehinz on February 13, 2019, 04:43:41 PM
All, I've come up with a few questions on the Webster that I thought I'd ask the group about.  Here goes:

On the valve guides, the original print calls for 'bronze/brass' which I take to mean either is acceptable.  I have on hand 3 materials, 360 brass, SAE660 bearing bronze, and C954 AL bronze.   These progress from quite soft to quite hard.  Which material would be preferred? 

On the valves, I have 2 questions.  First the valve stem diameter is spec'd as 3/32"  That's quite small!  I was thinking about going to 1/8" but that makes the valve guide get quite thin in places.  What's the wisdom?  Keep the stem diameter at 3/32"

On the valve construction.  I've read a lot of posts on this and Mr. Brian Rupnow certainly advocates for turning the valves out of a single piece of materials.  But others call for 2 pieces silver soldered together.  I'm sort of leaning toward the silver solder process but wanted to ask everyone's opinion on the best method at these very small sizes.

Carburetor.  I don't want to attempt to build one on my first IC engine.  Model engine carbs seem popular and are reported to work well.  Several carbs are mentioned:  the Traxxas 4033 (6mm bore), Joe Webster recommends a '4 or 5mm bore' carb, and S/S Machine sells both 3mm and 5mm bore carbs.  Various posts talk about smaller bore carbs being better.  So, what's the best?

Finally, on ignition systems, I'm heavily leaning to the go with the S/S Machine CDI setup as it's very compact and seemingly reliable.  Any opinions on this vs standard points based ignitions or other electronic ignitions? 

Thanks in advance for any and all help and feedback!

Mike
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on February 13, 2019, 05:28:32 PM
Hi Mike, here's my 2cents worth. On the guides I would use the bearing bronze, keeping the valve stems at 3/32" and made in one piece. Can't comment on the carbs as I haven't used purchased ones yet. As for the ignition system, I am a big advocate of the S/S system, simple, neat, and reliable, with the usual disclaimer.

Bill
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 13, 2019, 08:22:49 PM
I make my valve cages from cheap, run of the mill brass. I turn my one piece valves from cold rolled steel. There is a good reason for this. Even the best lapped valves will leak "some". BUT--Once the engine fires up the first time, the force of the rapidly expanding gasses in the cylinder will drive the steel valve into the seat so hard that the brass will deform a little bit to perfectly match the steel valve, and the seal between the valve and the cylinder will become a perfect air tight seal. Stick with the 3/32" diameter valve stems. The Traxxas carb you mentioned works well on the Webster. As far as the ignition system goes, I prefer t use an old fashioned points and condenser from an early 1970's Dodge or Plymouth. The trouble with CDI systems is that they are very easily damaged by any unintentional grounding, and this damage is not visible. This is guaranteed to make you absolutely crazy when your engine won't start and you can't figure out why. The use of ignition points may be somewhat outdated, but they are almost indestructible and easy to tell if they are working or not.---Brian Rupnow
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on February 13, 2019, 08:24:30 PM
Hello Mike,

I am following your build and hope you get lots of replies on your questions and their reasoning on each issue.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: mikehinz on February 13, 2019, 08:32:42 PM
Bill, Brian, thanks very much for your replies and information.  It's very helpful! 

Using the 360 brass for the valve seats makes sense from the 'i want it deform just a bit' standpoint.   I think I'll start with that and if necessary, I think i could change the seats out with a bit of luck. 

I understand both views regarding the ignition.  I may end up trying out both approaches as I think my brother has enough parts laying around from various autos and motorcycles he's had over the years to come up with a standard points based system plus the S/S CDi ignition is fairly reasonably priced, so I might try both if I can manage to get the valves done! 

As a bonus question, it seems like the main issue is getting sufficient compression, almost always due to valve related issues.  I was thinking about making some adapters and plates to be able to check compression during the build.  Is that a worthwhile thing to do?  And if so, is it better to check via compression or via vacuum?

Again, thanks so much for your input!

Mike
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 13, 2019, 11:41:10 PM
Mike--Special fittings etcetera sorta, kinda work. Best bet is to make a fitting with the same thread as your sparkplug. Turn the crank so that both valves are closed with piston at top dead center and put about 20 psi of air on the fitting. If air is leaking past a valve you can tell if it's from exhaust valve or from intake valve. Just be careful--if the engine rocks off top dead center, the crank will take off like a bobcat for bottom dead center, taking your finger with it.
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: mikehinz on April 02, 2021, 03:51:45 PM
Well, since I finished the PMR #1 Drilling Engine, I've started working on this Webster project.  I've actually been working on this for a few days, so I'm going to first post the pix of the work I've done up to today and then the posts will be more or less realtime after this bit.

All projects start with cutting up some raw stock in the bandsaw so that has to be the first pix in the restart of this engine project!!

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fJJEipsXqO1P58ZW0hcFpEWnirrFbBPt2jl5i7h94tfxOOa7braf2RA0cva1ppxwUqPI_ineJjKXPN3XqcavrpQAzo_FdGZUsRhXvoqYGAkJM9H63F3aRJOJmBZFKGSN5xV-h4yW3RIh_Rrm98QlNs=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

I decided to build the base and frame rails first, which is mostly just truing up raw stock and drilling holes patterns as per the prints.  Here's a shot of the base plate viewed from the bottom.  There's a visible line from the fly cutter but it doesn't even catch your finger nail, so I deemed it ok.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cECr7PmbaI5sFwiMlAgO3kE_iwUzyVOH-Fn3pabeC_VUYP3jsD6YrvzYUv2A43KI-MI9aJ_ls0V30nff-vpaaQCZX99CtB8Xq8TzVVWnf8PzCAn4-AoKRIpi5RMrKR4Gra_bIPuYJk6qNqfxUz16AV=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Drilling and reaming the crank support frame.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fFzH5MOMx2K985yHIdoWDTYd_Kh0uYq8oabDyWiOct_ZRVVhZbsXZSghya4rh24sb5qTPVWhpWRBRdyVeX-SM4lx-BYQc0RLKxd6fIBDZ5XgxQCUhmJ3pJSbDT0FKcS0BdsEQvLXB0wU547jMEnE0-=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Then setting up to cut the 30" diagonal feature on the part. 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fcdIDT0pLui4ZMHPLY8FHuaNwKWPD3LVtzdb6UObxM9EY2SjFRq6O50ZMdVgl-8fYI0MSCNTD6oe1yqK6CaXX-o78-EJ4g4WNRKuIjLzfXHfmooJj961P3NXLG4PXO7cNW6W5HeWwOKnA7ZDLCQULx=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

One of the frames as finished against the print.  I've left off the 10-32 holes as I'm not planning to use points and will instead use a Hall Effect device as the ignition trigger. 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fBv7y33ML-JGA0E_G0L2bL3k9eET_lwggKaSHnj5GI-X-RLcUOBlRb7k4-NFiiZ35EmgYVjekBv9gakDN3AV_uKhPiOmFCkOhf8_52IrjT0dooad0gIPWc6e_AHX13bU7qlJN0eyDeeMgr-_8atDwP=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

The other side frame after drilling the required holes, plus a bunch of holes to save a lot of milling.  This pix is of using my bandsaw to cut out the waste material.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3foOcpemNWXQEbDzPHL8BI1gHsUhCGqC-UTvv5aQaNNcKQ8BvEC_Vs6KzM2i6umHStVdDb8zbJZ1LKQDsB-ZuT-5PH-RyAv4ocE-quIXgfeQ_UY7dsQRKjHbwDMyI8O2YzjqVdgmEIPQnZs0TyU09J3=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Then milling the angled feature on the frame.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cskS2EJABznMnITwnHA4g8nHr3ksVd4hMsZZbez3Q2cxBvvs-B-7WZc9aUQn5sB1_jJCuAB0056ITuD8J7kGmoSYnlIkhNNky4xp_qwFsCHQqvs5mjVT8BGjBxZ6BDK6IQyrj-LzL2sNMZusHxU1AQ=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

And the finished part on the print.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dojUrEP-D1F1B5ga9LmcdzrRWAp3HgsCP4e-wedolJptwNsnoQD72RlgiDEnbb7PnWRocnOFoByGxJ2jEkgvxGtQPTN-DpPmko3AS_HXnJlQfnPxSSOOgspv9kQHXxWCT7ZBGAu2j_S0OVDG28f5AO=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

And last for this bit of work, the base and frames assembled to check for fit.  They at least fit together at this point! 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3ciHsF5mJMjO1bAjyIs7EmWccaZX0KbWnV7rsuTAtRoGTTCxb8jmzh1U7Uleo1XT8vR3PPCvGSBnSh1faKWzO-QwA8TqFeuUXwR3NfyfllV6ufXtB5_9ge5dU1BizcwTW2YbOQajs1ldk0YRXhnnURS=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

All for this bit.

Enjoy!

Mike
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: mikehinz on April 02, 2021, 04:08:28 PM
This next post will cover the cylinder head/frame machining.

I skipped over taking pix of the first few steps of truing up the stock and drilling/tapping the 10-32 hole in the bottom.  Shown is drilling/tapping the 6-32 holes that will be used to attach the head to the frame.  My usual setup for threading small holes, a spring loaded tap follower and a small tap wrench.  Plus lots of Tap Magic. 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fdXa06Yki5JVWlYxSprlODjwmAkorNIDXTigkHfofhehC6Hd3vFewKzLz3yQlLbxdO1At1coNQre1N6BUlmd2shGsxHMBcpwfXcT0Q7xDHw1GR-yabDAwjUGjXgI3F1b6yZeJbAN06iDCQnWxaSCuC=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Then drilling and counter-sinking the holes for the 4-40 flat head screws that will secure the cylinder to the head.  It's hard to see, but I had already drilled the hole that will be tapped 10mm 1mm for the spark plug.  I just checked the countersink depth with one of the fasteners and then set the quill stop on the mill to repeat for each of the other holes.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dtQLvD13jpsi8eUNkhLtxXPSVpxD1RiSUxZeIg1FWjJG28k3gh5v1p4B7QOhPChaMunxiIzMZDnHptPIYFcNAkuecc2gDh4QPGmeG-_d5fWQfWwycVW-WmDdnzSCWhz6xVPrWAZowNRjkecTJh45n9=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Over to the lathe with the 4J chuck installed.  I installed some home made jaw protectors and am making sure that the part is flat.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eYU7kf7TlUYRoG2xeK_-NjFGEA0kbfN_AMB8sh-800u-g8CMh5LwynJBLrHCrDribZxYMQ_-UOc66_TEo1wW7GUzjRdsuHkk0FQBlwbc4CFNCIVfMMfPrJC-dYVJtJ8SF4hQ_piWNsQtMqIz-ko7NJ=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Then I make sure the spark plug hole is on the lathe axis with the setup shown.  That's a dead center supported via a home made spring loaded rod that I normally use to find small center holes.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eN-4T1DIhJYUjGicnUhAwR3vbuoNCtEWvYIjN5MYCsPz_RW0lXj3hOCbEBxQedBfrot3fLOLvhEfcI3Ut8IJQ8g8f1QT2ZOtql-P9thBNczIBxGUfLnJsR21hhPOeBgp6mr59pPbZUmMfq3fIgV-3S=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Shown is boring the 1.00" dia x .50" deep hole on the backside of the head.  This is the feature that receives the cylinder.  The un-tapped spark plug hole was large enough to get started boring using a small insert type bar. 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3c5SCfyTmrBsv1ElmRmwTPegcppdJQD1OoYNZX3B5FsGMNQgHJn_xG1FtKPNbSTWd2Fmgv04oWt_aygcjxhC4yBne7ZG9G5_bUp_p7gg2dXCTkST7kubwt_FWLyyzW5-1cFg-8mldmsIbKx9iLyPICG=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Then power tapping the spark plug hole 10mm x 1mm on the mill.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3c0cSExts0-TQ-UMWcNwmE1MahQp0otM7_FRI2zDyjoAXwfuqD2PQdzQ4YS4NMguD5l6wL1daboOxq6e_kdCFjQ3_LJndz-F3-cdDVRSi4bx8y5XX9yc3YFVMm1YaPJsaRiaAs6cwOjYndPJv5wjtr9=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

And lastly, a trial fit of the spark plug and the head on the frame.  Everything seems to fit OK at this point.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3elb_9LkVkoSgIoQQYgfpgU2WjjqfN9DRaGQvtlVYjszbKezrjMLVy2gRJhVJqsju_9LfKF3P34EDG2ZpuhuAQbXXeKNuNsn7xeomj6PS5VXx7xGJmWyfYiWpUb3NNyi8eHzS3mVOWBgj6dErWcgOuw=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

And that's it for the cylinder head.

Enjoy!

Mike
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: mikehinz on April 02, 2021, 04:44:00 PM
Next part is the cylinder.   

I started with a bar of 1.5" cast iron purchased from Hobby Metal Kits.  I find their prices and shipping are typically the best for small quantities of material.  This bar measures nominally 1.6" so there's plenty of material to get down to the 1.50" OD.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3chhcOalLWcvp0unFoOkHrH12FX0_dxfQ_4XKPU75g2YN-V8EKy-6LDrAZCs6EhMeB69lDcprEr5rfa-cOlnPf8Fj7QCcA5LA4Rhq_C7BUdn0o0H9gR5Bn-LZTD84EmtRDAsbabkQicAClOY78t5nNr=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

After truing up as close as possible in the 4J, I turned the OD and the top feature of the cylinder, 1.00" OD by .50" length.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cgDhuM5M39pBlfBuzllmZx0r9JaMFLjq4edYwGSNxVcMYTFYnVAMKP2pHhuI_Tt3VvQvC_qRB_xf6eLXGGCSv4rBybAATk-AAzdVl_LU7ASrZ2UX0W_dc7uFKOXtpH6zRbfSe4fqm3igSFDLic6gp0=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Starting the grooving process to form the cooling fins.   I used a .079" wide carbide grooving tool and plunged to the spec'd depth and for each groove. I needed to move over another .015" to get to the required depth for each groove and fin.  This worked well as the CI cuts extremely easily.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3c-KnrSRTfaYxep4A12RjeSUG65BWzBrDDHBOFFSF8mB5zHg5e72VEoKRQeMkzpp6usYvnjlx2cYq_-IJ-wOVB42IGuWryYeHwUptqPzFNGq9diPyxkGM3pfDsHfxXEllf6En9AC7Ow5d-cRawbcnWY=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Just finishing the sequence of grooves to form the fins.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cd_xfZuN-tgkXxKCi3pvQqtX1BM3E3jIxYR7BzJabciZEXzdMeLhbhqFY5DlAaijZ0yUPv8mazxq-SfGooi95pe1JCntK5QYE-Tu8JS5kZc9GV4ii-HUjQnVbnMhmnE0rCXze4iv4uDVktk037fNFy=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Then I used the same tool to remove most of the material for what will be the 'end' of the cylinder.  I left about .010" over on the OD to be cleaned up later.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fcyLehcX19tfF9VR2lCZWe5DKwPnykScurENib3vRLgR2oNHtlZL5-VElapmofGlCyC3vyQQbl4hjzQGahOKKaAec2zSIneJZWbEjbOtTfF1LI8Qq_xxNZc7YhC1pAjj1KIWIEsJqmgnH_3dteOHDt=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Then while the part is still held security with the 4J, I center drilled, drilled thru with a 3/8" bit and then took out most of the cylinder ID with a 3/4" drill.  This went well, but I had to turn down the rpm to about 90.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3e-jq1ozHKxfIt17SYqBhsQ9KgPHk0OM05Fwj6I0axEMEdKOEp9UjYNsfC-Ou34TD7HwQUBuyh_SDVbrNtktZRwhHtJ8uqOGgJYBj4IxU1JM0wO8hXF8BXQcgwqAUSOuMrizYTS_RwsiqZ09xjH0HtI=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Then I parted off the cylinder from the remaining raw stock 'spigot'.  This was the same .079" grooving/parting tool used for forming the fins.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3evkrLYa-M5VQZfVd8TywSXw7E5zRMeGVmiFI9NYxr0tZDKYEmX14ICLhH6LqtB4BaXWf0-MWYT3kP-sqJr9h8qeNy36AFY--xY0LYlDLcf1YR2bv6M-omLNjGKXtU75o9uwHNdCZTP_13BPw3c46Lw=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

I installed my collet setup, turned the cylinder around, and cleaned up the cylinder OD on the base end.  In the same setup, I bored the ID to just a shade under .875".  I wanted to leave just a thousands or so for lapping.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3elY-uIbvsWXKzNGPlt4v6OTXO8AQJue9A7dZ4ka7uh2PZ-7RGZPT42sLuNnWPzYvhCGdnQRQsFxpYxl8Bc5F6D33bDSaiK2QCQBeNzjcf4aV0NEVTSHLRz9ZFInvwyEG727JUipIfu-6wk0XvFkqsU=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

I failed to take pix of it, but I put the cylinder back in the mill vise held with a set of v-blocks padded with some AL.  I centered it under the spindle and then used the DRO to locate and then drill and tap the 4-40 holes for the screws that will retain the cylinder ot the head.   I also spotted, drilled, and tapped for the drip oiler, but again failed to take any pix of that operation.  For that operation, I screwed the cylinder to the head and clamped the head in the mill vise and indicated off of it.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3diQEhz-kogn01qgYYKX5vyUzTl-RMsibz9sgm5d2sgDa1DazEzUpMbZ5vYZ6ez1-FiXAtw72l1f_sm1vhCPb7p09FOYDoRj3wktd64-FPL9-HHuP66rJ6CvRwdwBy8GDImp5oiyOxUlrxFJd0pfQO0=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

I then turned the frame with the intake hole facing upward, centered on it and took a 3/16" end mill and carefully plunged thru the intake hole to form the intake/exhaust hole in the cylinder.  This worked fine but I did proceed very slowly when feeding down the end mill.  Shown is after that operation was completed.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3chPfXLzRGQNr_nf1j32-EK1rB8XOAgWAz2JN7qfc4-BOcqjnkcVjDsPAaq55Bfn0LgFMKjgaMIpEbmOGtXgFfjWA_Yz9NqpTKnnx8Fbqi_S2i7n_GSKsRsDZsikAi2KrD8ciO3Z8CpQtP1Ubi-CT-h=w1263-h947-no?authuser=0)

Last operation was lapping the cylinder to get it as true and smooth as possible.  I used a brass lap and Timesavers medium grit followed by extra-fine grit.  The finish on the ID ended up to be very smooth and the final ID ended up at .8752", as close as I could measure it.  This isn't a great pix but you get the idea.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fHemYhSn53VSxHtn98YqXoOPWRqBkUyyVg0JBszeu6OdEf8CaNtBFUrlfkTMf54kSVKPRVtVgpH8d-oL7oTBUuzsjW46Z4wynuPYdk4UHZkRDdIxjTqihb6Svh1J3mMmrSdFnrm4aO5S_pV_LjEr5X=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

And that's it for the cylinder!

Enjoy!

Mike





Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: Kim on April 02, 2021, 06:34:00 PM
Wow!  That's a lot of great progress in a few posts!   You have been busy!  :popcorn:
Thanks for taking the time to post your progress on your build.

Kim
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: RayW on April 02, 2021, 07:40:17 PM
Impressive progress so far Mike. I am following your build with interest as the Webster was my first build and taught me a lot about machining. My ignition was via a trembler (buzz) coil and a standard set of car points. I did make a little carb from the plans, which worked OK, but I eventually fitted a model aircraft one which gave much better control. Feel free to ask if you have any questions.
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: mikehinz on April 02, 2021, 08:49:30 PM
........................Feel free to ask if you have any questions.

Ray, thanks for taking a look!   And since you have the experience and offered to answer any questions, I have a couple of them! 

First, I don't like the way the timing gear is attached to the flywheel since once the flywheel is roll pinned to the crankshaft, timing charges are hard!!  So looking at the CAD model I built, I THINK its possible to not turn the recess in the flywheel for the gear, and instead just turn the gear around and maybe slightly trim the gear hub a little shorter and it should fit if I leave out the crankshaft spacer.  The gear I bought has a 6-32 set screw and if I get too close to the edge of it, I can drill and tap 4-40 a little closer to the gear face.  If this works, then the timing can be set much more easily.  What do you think about that idea? 

Second, it's suggest to use 2 3/32" roll pins to secure the flywheel to the shaft.  Could I replace those 2 with qty 1 1/8" roll pin on one side?

Third, I purchased one of Roy Scholl's CDI ignition systems.  When I install it, is it worth coming up with a way to change the timing while the engine is running?  Or should I just fix the sensor and adjust the timing while the engine is off using using the round disk that I'll mount the magnet in?

Thanks in advance for any help on these questions!

Mike
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: RayW on April 02, 2021, 10:14:07 PM
Hi Mike,
Your questions made me have a closer look at my engine and back at the plans to remind me how I did everything. Being my first engine, I stuck pretty closely to the plans, but I see no problem with the changes you are proposing. By attaching the gear to the flywheel boss with a locking screw, rather than Loctiting them together as per the plans, you would be able to adjust the valve timing easily. The setup as per the plans gives no facility to do so once the engine is assembled.

Quite why the plans specify two roll pins, i am not sure. Seems a bit of a belt and braces job to me. I would have thought that one was more than adequate on an engine of this size.

As I mentioned, my engine uses standard car ignition points and a condenser and I have never used Hall type sensors, so that is one thing I can't advise you on, but the ability to vary ignition timing while the engine is running would be useful if you can arrange it.

Hope that is some help


Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on April 02, 2021, 11:08:56 PM
Coming along very nicely  :ThumbsUp:


Be safe and have a great day,
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: mikehinz on April 03, 2021, 01:43:59 AM
First, let me thank everyone that's watching this build log!  Also any and all feedback and suggestions are welcome! 

Today, I finished up the piston.  I'd been working on it since yesterday but needed to make a run to find a few small parts and a bit of material so I ended up finishing it up today. 

I started with a piece of 1.0" OD AL round stock and held in a 1" collet and then turned the lower end of it down to .873" as per the print.  Here is sitting on the print and you can see I turned the .873" diameter a little longer than the 1" called out on the print.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dvT3494Q6hXQL0WEUb0Pk6RM939MW_a2lVB2RpDXTb0v_40QNfXO-o4fQtw1XuOZfFiaWWORyGouI1s6dldygXTuEqUImzWW-AU2qM8feX6VEvj0qnqMEv4kwHCKl_fh2POMqKfJOGlqrJ08Rr8Rrd=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Then I took the collet out of the lathe and installed it into a 4 sided collet block and drilled and reamed for the wrist pin. 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cI15vlwOgG99_m6SZST0AELdbYfD6SfMA3qdzK-yfReCFpVfrDMP9s7F_U0SDipc-cek4nhrt6FYDuu9ygYgrQ4Zi9ziNDtt9CoOzsFtu71SsUGLSUwUNy7ZH9WdiWuKKFHP0i_eXo2Q1JGTOI3aeR=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Then I turned the collet block 90 degrees and found the end again and drilled the oil tube hole just deep enough so that it will intersect the slot to be milled later.  Using the collet block should assure the features are at 90 degrees to each other.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eNavp_CsrqAIZJas5djqqr-VslMJCP1CAztAVz-PM4XOLBjdyh2dRg9NGKUkAWyxykXMHBYwhflZRWj9xKb91yE0ZFe7LGWMAWAWJsf_9nmEqgda9hJWQxU0uflRNH9YaHVpdEOXh2i2eRYV0eKmnE=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Then I stood the collet block up on end and swept the block vertically to make sure it's straight with the spindle. 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eoQ7-G5uNvhH5P5JpWOg8KyLSYqo_QPBc6p3EUpXYDa3NzKLCBP2sqrrCAq43TxefHatbUCu_pNBQ5QZHc_a2BA9AbYVb52MvwBdzOAzHQtc9IkFyV2nTebAIPmuaEOp0uMBMnOLEAs0kVWXQA89vB=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Then I centered the part under the spindle with a DTI.  That's an Amazon clone of a Interapid type indicator.  I bought it just to see how I like vs a standard Mitutoyo DTI.  I do like it and one of this days I might purchase an actual interapid DTI. 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3c3e05bbY1HUz_SkQkdt8Z1WV3EOjQZu3WgF8ZGZn1BIF046KpZbKG-n3t6St6T9BO16Wm2Te2gHXT5pv4iAgtdfFSwqZkbLoHWxjXk5coK5J8Uit7V3CxrCMIeA9RIHZz8SQLIp51HEbg8soqbkyGG=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Then I created the .25" deep recess with a .75" 2 flute end mill, just plunging straight in by raising the table slowly. 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dGKFd8jC7xEoO-nEKkZ1BRToLUV-V8g-CJsURWipITYOiyQo6UcObMdTWG477iMpZag-81TIU27_V7g5Ue4ChvacU8q3xnCoEjdQZgR1HKaQCgRDBySzqICDANQ4hHR88KfFHWRn3EA1HmHimERuQw=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

To create the 3/8" slot, I moved the table over and moved down with the quill to .750" and then set the quill stop so I can repeatedly plunge to that depth without overshooting.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eEJywKkeO74nWBXAHTe7TJ5YsCRWb3iMZJFoTaM1VXjqUTSRZj2RyX7Sy3IaMaGPKtLeujMYCSl2YyHGddmK_Nth5JgatACnAzcmLJAS1gnELct6cwCug3qJ7BHZJn79St_Rg-1u2i0adU63a-Adqd=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Creating the slot with a 3/8" 4 flute EM.  You can also see the Unist mql nozzle in the pix which is very useful to clean out the chips and keep the part and cutter lubricated and cool.  My thinking about using the collet block for holding the part is that this method should give me the best chance of making sure everything is in the proper plane. 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3euV7ivfrwQTYq1WDbnwdD6xCsGGF4kL-4Prge4vAR-24NeWvpBEIT5O4BSWdpJyZ1p7BPL_IJe4etveNDRFtlTABL4YZmPwBqMmHxWZz3fqp9GT6o702Rqs321L6Fvt1s75eX1OiUjGvKp0us91NK7=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Drilling and tapping for the 4-40 set screws that will be used to retain the wrist pin.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cO3AbJmsfMPptz8OYM8EItL8_UmTCz-23Bj9m_tNAznHs7FeYEx3SmuZxgQuIY0ktVtVEuRR_amsPokbpAI8a6onLw7KQHQm-0mrzcouYUigQ30r923NcfL_aU4D7OEOsAxN8BykcL7QCD-tUvB7vt=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Then back to the lathe to part off the piston from the spigot that was used for work holding up to this point.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eK8phxngI3ijRVI95N9pMDFAn5Lfwd6kB8bZOOicsLXjSIMfJZRK_BwJ3BH8wj-2jEZ2VvFhY4uHSayMZCtgPN-OkZN43I52UNA-YvrQhfvtD9ffRoYJSrlMdkuuysatvOc5Z-DgJr-8Q-kiDyY0WQ=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Then I changed the collet to 7/8" and trimmed the top to get the proper OLA and then used the grooving tool to form the o-ring groove.  I intend to use a -018 viton o-ring with a very modest amount of wall pressure.  The groove width is .085" and the groove diameter is .740" which should give a squeeze of about .005" on the cylinder wall.  That's a lot less than the standard design parameters call for but I followed the guidance of Bob Nawa who authored a very good paper back in 2013 describing this method of sizing o-ring grooves for low rpm engines.  I guess the proof of this method will be if the engine runs or not!!

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3d1d2NTCQbdDZSXFyPT_hTnh2jyX2HU5sh2yzmP3EBZMfHm0dOmAw1edHWMFe3DGEcmf6gHX8nClisncFGvsQEnntO5bS8SAbFIRCUdpBIQnfuMEkBVyOTicP--BBCWkADqW_dzipzLsMv_na4bzgZE=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Next is the wrist pin.  I cut off a bit of 3/16" drill rod and faced each end to length.  Then I drilled thru as per the print.  I was a bit confused as to why this hole exists, but I figure the designer knows way better than me!

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3diohnhrbS3dqy06Itw52TRn1pWDzkzLGW8zVeAgRCw0LBaCAmc8GbwTqCEHAJpNisZqB14k5HIZyELbo_-G-CvckVgnCKP1Yj3BkQbQpMo1Q6Ubjz_CNVS_gtn9MpeFxY7EULEM9a4umBAlQV544zg=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Then over to the mill using a very sketchy setup to mill the 2 flats for the set screw landing area. 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eIwIo8VdrECvx0na4-j7UqutxhDgLVk45AM3xUV4dbHMMbrCxJF7v0NLi04c08hStQQRGCdwxxiSgwZbblwHw1RHPO69k0fKk8p0dgLaJSgINXmF4K82uo6tHuYfeE0N38hi0O89pEIQbyj-qUhume=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

And a pix of the piston and wrist pin together.  It actually fit!

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3d7WzxUx_cVwb47FTYd_nEDmyRZwArM2KIi76fiWaUHLkdVkynemNZR-IiO3pUFvrFfasywo8RzntNsyIx9MTljRNYM9nHrGnnQ6SP9wx4d5yaxScurvuKlM8aL226W08-tqyRaRLG5BTY4__fSE3wt=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Last is the oil tube, a VERY small item!  I found some 3/32" brass tubing at a local hardware store, so I hacksawed a bit of it off and used a collet in the lathe to trim the tube to length.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eRFAZ3TrXpN5yzdyaPMC_BffWi3Fv2MeNMFxW9n_eb1vMytW_SWWFXvWw_9-qxkDVxq_pa_rpvQZLRbkwc_JNsG5PfHoYFSo07kGWeR9yi0LXMT-U6bwyYJdclx4RY7r-X-92p5qmU2Ykj1v8Qn-4X=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Finished!  A US dime coin for size comparison.  I'm gonna have to get an Optivisor one of these days.  That's about the size limit for my eyes!  I did assemble it using a very small drop of Loctite 638 so I doubt if it will come apart. 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eqqSA8vrM8pbLPscmq-WDnGJahhwYOxRENPrUCudGqHKdQBDcJ6YleaM5esKwIWUKi2QTzvWuYSXJS04OXzG9eGsBQdPle-SQEZQusQ63-rpvXLWu7i-vaWN8G2XcPnIUD6QaYbe72RReC6ahbwILh=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

So one more part completed! 

I'm going to help my brother on a house he's remodeling so I won't get back into my shop until Sunday at the earliest. 

Enjoy!

Mike
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: Kim on April 03, 2021, 02:33:19 AM
Great write-up on your pistons, Mike!
Thanks!
Kim
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: propforward on April 03, 2021, 02:39:24 AM
That piston is an intricate part - thanks for taking the time to post your detailed set up pictures and approach, these are very useful and greatly appreciated!
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: mikehinz on April 10, 2021, 02:30:56 PM
Today, I'll go over how I made the connecting rod.  This was new to me as I've had only a bit of experience with a rotary table and needed to figure out exactly how to perform all the steps necessary.  I spent quite a big of time in CAD laying it all out and figuring our how I would need to move the mill table and RT to get all the features called out.

First, some easy bits, The bushing for the big and little ends of the con rod.  Material is SAE 660 bearing bronze. 

Turning down the OD.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eIVkONYzzhmKqPL9R-h51B3shtFcvxaV7AMuoCurG-DqbwFeNicky_8lSuotQEfBnGJAewDVu9dDYVnIvpHEBct4708XzLXpNsW13GTAhxL_3l2M9I8sT6RDPosBKE1e69SukqwDZGMyp8EnZC8Ugm=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Drilling the ID.  I later reamed the ID, but didn't take a pix.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dtnzJ7oenKR0kBnOqKgHjzDjZBHbJ_uKY0YH_jQaCrw4gnvvteVZ8OJg4491G0IRcCXIKsXXsLDxWju-O5ZDSPEK_FxC36lBAOD-m6aR2JWowXGbj8XU1X0ATI84DZSSOsjqAcwXLbKU6njCrktX6z=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

The finishing bushings on the print.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fm7Az4Lbi9dFiL7ABFGHZwrFrxzIhM-4cpK-WHzNVEW5GR50ZuVyU87piLcy-ot0BHb9myjlmyvWF2I-loRODD4KsqyOgQ7sQHHc2xzHzPkTfjGcnOelc-36o8w_ETgyEdXdDpVX1lZI8Y0oSlgXrY=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

After generating a drawing in CAD, I squared up a piece of .313" thick AL and then drilled and reaming the big end and little end.  Next I drilled 1/4" at the center of the 4 radii that form the transitions from the side of the rod to the end.  Can anyone spot the screw up on this part?

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dbUw3Ol8bVaDQufJvs57Mz08VxEuX0oYvEUBVDvC2VfWUh0Yjd4UCpwm0SemNvS3QdNnMhFiG5t3e-0XuexGITJpWEiq6IldN0Snqjz_cbKoAUxbNOUnPDSMNkymxUnUgJdxVwa-eIqkOJAchcLmWe=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Then I made a couple of alignment pins for my RT.  That's a 6" Vertex.  The pins are .75" and are a close fit in the center of the RT and then the top is either .25" or .375" or the un-bushed rod ends. 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dUu5uGE-JN7UqB-_3XuvOW_quNDPLPcuv7l4DtdNUfiGd-5ab654r1DppxyZjGfrjzzhabomQTbm15mKbzMQX_Fd3jdHgHSTb9DKwVoXB4NZxMMkwXlfVXyTGhUUIqVWjRNO0qAFxt2v-DH8wzsB9e=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

After centering the RT under the spindle, I placed the stock on the RT and moved over in X exactly the distance between the con rod center holes.  Then I fitting a 1/4" piece of brass in the mill and moved the stock side to side until it passed thru the small end hole.  This process got the rod exactly inline with the mill's X axis with the RT set to zero degrees rotation.  The clamps were then tightened down on the stock.  There's some waste material under the stock also.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dgGDT2Q0SZ32QXgl8ByQM9ZT-kJ5JaJpkOCUEgx-RXKE6CLDO9Y4NYGEpBJFjQXPt62J6FB-BGa6cCcTU-yOcmSIrtB8zwtjjTpY0J2N8Raw52ut8G5Li3akM2y21NttMYiPdNDtj_rh0uScu7pnbk=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Then I rotated the RT 1' 30" on each side of zero, locked Y and moved the mill table only in X to form the sides of the rod.   In the pix is the state of the rod after each side was milled.  Clamps were repositioned for each side.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3d20kALf2rDOpOUqGigVRD9e8BFxpqmvm4KvvmkEzYE1QtQeiYnPrm_N87TwZS2Hml3p1q2x0vQydB2fVSwVKO4BR_hWmFC8j8ww77kYdpeXDBA4AdqYF12fE9k1scMWRF_QQvr89NCf9t96DUC_t4H=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Next I did the ends.  This involved going back to zero on the mill table and the RT.  Then moving the mill table in X to the radius of the feature plus 1/2 the cutter diameter.  I used a 1/4" carbide end mill for this and I climb cut the last pass.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fO08EGLJ2fCD3bAUcQu2qLvsXpNkBEkusk-eHXklELPJaqQBOdBOnUe8xo8f0l5PTBNvDPL7Wo2vn-UmKgtRdSIQAJg8mWl68Xmb47aUJVjy04ub7gKan7gF3Dg7-nxbGfDphW9JoFBc82yxw56S1x=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

The con rod after milling the ends.  Shown also is the waste material after the cuts were finished.  I didn't take any pix, but I clamped the rod on my small tooing pallet and milled the sides of the rod down .031" as per the print.  This was pretty easy as I just clamped each end, milled the side and flipped it over and repeated. 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fTRdGzq0mxjxVbaVfUTwXYzXlRmJIHwWwwAw7dSdd0lnzjHvBX3E1a-dE_QqIzVMp5gDkCHm6w_MwvxLk9nfm4sdJ6Ys8ielgHN3kUW-n049MmxCoFJBGBJAGHj9-waFQ1ljAykRTiY1R_JlKDSRGs=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

I spend a just a bit of time filing and sanding the rod to get rid of the roughest bits and then pressed the bushings in place with my bench vise.  I used some Loctite 603 on the bushing prior to pressing them in place. 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cRWMAcTA_OqenOUIv_Sxq9xM36XR1jeJ28lBQQIxL2QP1jTpDgKwKjfNyGqSra1qn-PCIFx3iyGJi9BqjzqqlUWjH_t1jd1L7UmGTmPW0xhbSTkFvkl-4F9XtsNWSzuNeM2OngT-x2N_UeyMcDxGK1=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Back in the mill vise to drill the oil hole in the small end.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fba2EDkHrYuGqIgrsgrZfqFin_b8bHLAlkxrvghirxQibtHK-adGpxsX7rpF5KJc7r1dgWWabcrY2HOeIkWeAQOkpoxPdKDToB95olqi1J17h3h8uTy57xRZ3jzTkXu4HP06mq-fwQMmOa4MImyhQp=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

The rod with the wrist pin installed.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3de205FdPZNENIFRkONRpVxjUwoIk4AtHQ8AhkmfsktlmNq94ogc8seIhmoqhiRR9Hanw8Loaod7L-LA1ggiT32PQ-DmgTRgFrsrJo13db-1fopPckBnKyZsbS1cQhIdI8AugsrDD_8j7U62RutffRH=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

And the final pix showing the con rod installed with the piston and wrist pin.  By some miracle it all fits and even rotates! 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eDmoJZL1NWa00knuDui8HPed5ZVLRhWoUp6OGDFPL0eP0bMBTrB0utRRUewDP0FK-iBD1chVe7TPi0GaVSGFVfAB5-nznDJDcrmXfmu7GcoVTfc6X4UIdvbV7e87sUr6w6BVJGWFoHihw6RaM9QAL7=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

I must say, I learned a lot making this connecting rod.  I did make 3 mistakes, but they were fairly minor and just affected the appearance, not the functionality, so I'm living with them.  One thing that became crystal clear to me is that it's a must to have a step by step process to follow and to get all the necessary dimensions completely clearly shown on the drawing that you're trying to follow.  I'm hopeful that I can do better on the next one!

Enjoy!

Mike

Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: crueby on April 10, 2021, 03:01:37 PM
Great sequence, well done!  The rotary table is a very handy tool, once you figure out ways and the order  to use it.

 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: Roger B on April 10, 2021, 03:33:36 PM
I'm still following and enjoying  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: Kim on April 10, 2021, 05:44:11 PM
Nice process on your connecting rods, Mike!  :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: mikehinz on April 12, 2021, 06:34:26 PM
First, thanks to all that are watching this build.  I really appreciate and would love any feedback or suggestions for improvement for my methods.

So, I finished up the crankshaft over the last couple of days and I'll show the process in this post. 

Here's the start.  I sawed off and cleaned up the ends of a piece of 5/16" drill rod and had a small chuck of 1215 material left over from an earlier project.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cyN-XEbIjFp1g-a6qSep-53VIkJhP4bNiLqf5So6Ey7T6rXFZbxlV3vAAAxLthgRwB2wzBMquh6HLuGpl30yXuz_NsapxLKLZqFGIGPrSaK95gbo_whvRK3UK3efnmnVlh4HuCBrJ6NF2bEF9ubsXA=w708-h943-no?authuser=0)

I turned down the OD of the stock to 1.82" and drilled and reamed the center hole 5/16", the diameter of the drill rod.  This will become the crank throw and I'm not following the original print at this point, but instead 'borrowed' Brian Rupnow's throw configuration that add a bit of counterweight to the part.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fZj9nimaO4QgJXPwNYny0dAHz02RCdAMUC1vw9Lmj6IxpPQOFxJ1F3JFhgjgygsSopE5WV9V5DCzJB7iQl3kCzh48NwBMd5MoAvvMa--bjchm4m2kXpEP5rx91FKdY8Yqt_d2ZmQrZeuOYHkhvPgoI=w708-h943-no?authuser=0)

After parting the to-be throw off in the lathe, I moved over to the mill and cleaned up the surface that had been parted and drilled and reamed the crank pin hole.  Again I deviated from the original print and made this 5/16".  It's drilled .625" from the center hole as per the original print.  I did this by offsetting in X via the DRO.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fCXVcqAHlXP9d0aPXDjcqhnpagNUT6OisKxbCAd28yrPpcK-x55_5-S8fFeOgIO6SyN0O4ojoT-Lu6gn7WTbM8rsf6JqlZ1U8L5hKgoUI3COWJ_Cy00iB5CnirHkqfuYubbLzUdDNFzwrt8Sh5q_I3=w708-h943-no?authuser=0)

Here's the throw blank on the print, showing the 2 drilled and reamed holes and I also scratched a centerline on the throw just for reference.  I wasn't sure I'd use it but it ended up being a handy reference for the steps to come.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cXUbUhVv-PyogSY1-ZvAxzYwl3sKzvT1ZvGQh42kCFBYrOZ9E6Mrye2NVDmDzN0QVB-HCEHsc7QkSR3mA7sl80vs9KAZH_Zy_CQCNT5CwXrMifaJCvRxr0_4V8Cv6AZNz-8lePCCMvESjRKRjagCIG=w708-h943-no?authuser=0)

I also quickly made a .031" thick washer from bearing bronze as the throw is flat as I didn't turn the 1/2" diameter feature on the throw. I''m parting off the washer here, after turning the OD and drilling the ID.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3c0hG5DaKk00YlMo_IcnGmU423iJ0r0cpZAXFDrLPgmNm4eG9dbUO7q7ZevLU8qZxfdquYQcsf6KDnncG_m7-gTxqvw8uoe2OBlbn6Uw1-aNfg9NlY0QxLlbIrH_-3dcCG2wX33vjqnH2CmZbiD8nkg=w708-h943-no?authuser=0)

The bronze washer shown against the to-be throw, just checking it for size.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fCiQKP1JxYykxZ7GkjFuOjckr50egaivcppJ7VPEG6ZdPXsRLbdgvGQjwXTEYzy5U1Y2NqoVP925SeBdnWZce8yRiyoYoKsp6ERYDuhGx2lkw67Vu-JWIjHqLqqbkXk98__3uqjoajy28qTAlCiUDG=w708-h943-no?authuser=0)

I struggled for some time on exactly how to create the angular feature to make the Brian Rupnow style throw but finally wrapped my head around a method and made a drawing with the required dimensions.  My hang up seemed to be the offset required from the center hole when the part is rotated.  Suddenly I got the necessary inspiration and figure out that what I needed was simply the distance from the center of the center hole to each side of the angle.  And I needed to rotate about the center hole.  So first I made an alignment pin for my rotary table, that fit the RT and was 5/16" above the table which then centered the throw on the RT.  Shown in the alignment pin installed in the Vertex RT.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3ewB55LnFJ2GaR1AusLEJegSfjsoHt1C2S8tFS7hRSZlYCgIXNP3BJG8PcFYfHbJ69lr2sYYEevAnKI1U2M69ByXqjhms5Bh7WXza3UofqTghKk6qW3I1A3-e9Ao0geRS6WBuP5oUcZlh6mZ8Ub-Q2p=w708-h943-no?authuser=0)

I put some waste stock under the throw and after carefully centering the RT under the spindle and setting the RT to zero degrees rotation, and zeroing the DRO, I moved in Y exactly .625" and using a piece of 5/16" brass rod, I rotated the throw until the brass rod slipped thru the hole.  This should align the center hole and the pin hole exactly in the Y axis.  Then I secured the clamps and locked the X mill table axis and returned the mill to 0/0.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fU-XRa-wQ_ddDDSgSEIfTXZ5U8MUMjXm-0uvuu9lvLm-W9LdFpRUL7KNdIeNWdB6amSRwu5392w9qHBs79LsEtvi_nwCwW_gkPCeKs1eZRb3X5ByRMYVsoFIzYicpqAsBCl4Vp5aTBKC4tM5a280JZ=w708-h943-no?authuser=0)

Then I rotated the RT 20 degrees and moved in X .499" and locked the X axis and the RT.  Then I started taking passes to cut the throw as indicated using only Y.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eaT9a0eA2jrnnAa7koWj4p1-4IeFvBYroRRqznGimWgkCyjCoE88T2Z0XBbF5fMN9JvvhOzDXpNdXPrizjNtdC4Nl7XbYSP80oyS2sAb-QmgCMiL5NQK2ZavSgpxG7aElqxzJ0aK-kUWHNQV17TBk_=w708-h943-no?authuser=0)

I repeated the same operation for the other side, except rotating the RT 20 degrees the opposite way and reclamping the part to avoid colliding with the clamps.  Shown is just after both sides of the throw were finished.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3d8S0b0TER2ddOTqrqITMK2PTqyDYFh2sexrC6_greNq2nZEBk6mj_dlivuo97vPUwJwMytXCgTsjXyrt8XQfmWz4GRo0448j2ZO4F0Udh-Ark_bRr0Hr5tG95a0U_4jtkOBHmdboqNtCwzDznqa1Ha=w708-h943-no?authuser=0)

The part shown against the print where you can see the critical .499" dimension that's the key to setting up the RT and mill to get the cut done as called out on the print.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3c_U-WNDb0CkYQB1vYjEdGTKlZkMoH2GEPRAJeVU-b1tM3IdPnWTCvRIyWUgaEXDnEDmpxn6oRsjnJAxAJwOzFIY6nTEesDMtHe8-YiHdVhlX-3JoDhkcqxPq88vlYH0KZzgt0ohYw_khtz1ljSEQUU=w1250-h938-no?authuser=0)

I next made the crank pin.  I didn't show any of those operations, just the completed part.  This was mostly straightforward, although drilling the small oil hole made me pucker up a bit.  I used a collet block to hold the part in the mill vise, found the center and edge and gently drilled the hole.  You can see it, but it but the part is drilled and tapped 8-32 for the grease cup.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eTcuN3cGyFOmwHo-X0AJayjAL_L8JXrl5SONPSKyBGVfzVF4KbqVqTmGVnuVl7HZwhxUoY3c2rNZ8ITOWj9mhArE6HuVRFHVxrJA4CJ99hshrk5O96Y1ozkWEv_KdyJCtOqNTc6NLp67PY3Lpi9q28=w708-h943-no?authuser=0)

I"m going to borrow another of Brian Rupnow's suggestions, which is to add a starter hub to the end of the crankshaft.  To that end, I milled a 1/8" keyway, 1" in length in the end of the shaft.  Depth was .062" and I took it quite easy with the small EM, taking only about .015" depth per pass.  I used a 2 flute HSS EM spinning fast. 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dLCaIU90hEIHyBEkf1U2xqnzTA16P3dlIlF5rwLLTA9a4eamsfzebWkLhyvRM1LEJ7Ci6vMGRvFgF7l9RjtW0l5gVEK5Sq8HnOwS7HKkBfmdTzCTDs3WS88Yqa53KyFsC1Ur3FzET_-6k1fCXxo6CG=w708-h943-no?authuser=0)

And the shaft completed laid on top of the print.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dQ2g3gbBfg_a0lnTy-OpVAb7sMZcRbeqvNnXxq29JkTLGeDSLyR3zeclb95iQpgotaD3jtTfmYJ0wYlvgVkiQAceyYXk6SrAluUvPGwluXhPHSBQwQ9uo0HDAFQekkA8hPb-UtJCLXslTb2MrcCJ5D=w1250-h938-no?authuser=0)

Well, there was nothing left but to get to the part of the operation that I was dreading, silver brazing everything together.  The reason I was nervous was that I wasn't super confident that the pin and shaft would be parallel with each other and perpendicular to the throw due to the short amount of engagement.  I do know how to silver braze so I wasn't worried about that, just the process to get everything in the correct place.  This is the silver braze and flux that I use.  It's commonly available at the local welding supply houses here in Wichita, KS.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dL-_dfKOCPpMdDWCss0x20--EBa8Ueo52zU20x1G2aDGQGDndxhsyORpFDW-8xhshwbcfo9PgmBLRDSRFY1H6AISgrVCG_gWt4P69lI3463eh_DHPnancFuxj3J442QYw6_C0Oakdg6Bx_3go0DTje=w708-h943-no?authuser=0)

So, the process I decided on was to braze the shaft in place first.  I ended up using a center punch to put 4 tiny dimples around the shaft where it fits in the throw.  I did this since I wanted it to have some resistance to coming out of place while I was handling it.  I generously applied flux to the shaft and hole in the throw and pressed the parts together using my bench vise.  I applied heat with an oxy/acetylene rig setup with a small brazing tip.  This pix show the part after brazing and I did manage to apply a bit too my braze material as is my usual and terrible habit!

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eoaZGyPWeu2aWpLKjIMLbNWrmaIr-sA_MidE_iijS2_x2xx4J4gp4fX-AwdH_CacqfNjohe8BmYNd5pJyTBn00WNl_FyxhxLELwCEU4KnBGOcVxxKOkLsbC3jNgv4PImRur_AO-agallWkyW95P1-N=w708-h943-no?authuser=0)

This is the backside of the part showing that the braze material wicked thru the shaft/throw interface very well, so the joint should be good, IMO.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eRFZCvOLeyGQZ_P4LHcF0mR9fRiIOFzUU-s2WaRAaY6VQFiZL7EeENmecuFDD0UYYkPQ38fSXHrVrYiMZkbNcOeFooCVBLo6LgYyr47X2hf0yiDBy5EZGwczVcZFWGoEXrbP34hyorLXbQ-OypoWKq=w708-h943-no?authuser=0)

I put the assembly in the lathe with a collet setup and lightly skimmed the face of the throw, both to clean up the excess brazing material but also make sure that the face of the throw as perpendicular to the shaft.  My theory being that when I press the pin in, it wil be in the correct alignment with the shaft and the throw, strong emphasis on 'theory'.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3erOCaEm72YFIBFioNOPIAyhfMG3wQUC1__-6yKCladmwySwfl7y8-250ROSEvHZtFdD5-fVcKt2ZjekisDvFxYAUNrmzTfBPeHqbWBz1V1D0sjzkNdMVahBXF8EqcdNrf9F-Zwr9HIt0WIRGQVNZKu=w708-h943-no?authuser=0)

I didn't show the brazing operation, but I pressed the pin into place after applying flux and then heating and applying the silver braze as I did on the shaft.  Shown in the pix is cleaning up the backside of the throw after brazing the pin into place.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eLeilAO9xZxZxSglt70c66lqgtTvjTWKrRmUiM1ku8MBLa-BoL9idsix3jNLYvUbK41lbdzi7_qkKzWR8CvGQvZmOLeykeUIZS2mVGj7WqMZSJRv4axhsyaagZqj5bxq8QWGg8Neg4Au2YallrGUtl=w708-h943-no?authuser=0)

A closeup of the backside of the throw, shaft, nad pin.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dzmsJp6S1WOenR-CzCdyrAfoaeeMTYM3U6lPdGfuvoNRO-FL5ArGy_1Sgn36i762F6-By-IoUo3obNR1nsDVUQk5bVk0Ns89xb09MxoXuiTm_yV1jP6xYVaLcRcJCKRmu70Y08Q0-OnNqEUzlDIrMZ=w708-h943-no?authuser=0)

And of the front side of the crankshaft assembly.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dNqEKchEvCW5JG3zRwPed_GhWDB23WyGrvq_AkGZ3fxfcC_4AU0SB2cRjWyo6rJ5wLeNubALdg1jP6LYRWPSgow6LlJL0Ks9D4qyFkqeuHCZAtsv5r4FwnfonhA6LzDoIkZKUV8ViZ2fAmS256woEo=w708-h943-no?authuser=0)

Since I was terrified that everything wouldn't be aligned well enough to rotate, I quickly assembled the parts I've made to date on the frame and base and by some miracle, they all went together and they actually rotate!!

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eZh6fPmNtswCm9UKWxs5k6TVO_pRTOkAuJzrTrvY2_SjYkeYUh4gIEhGs42oN6mn0C5_JMiMhOfpYOSRYoLusge-n4bGnZcIgLUw5rzypn4L8-TIwg-5GcSeKnrv7ifCsFvnB1WE6MH0_RAJZr6U8D=w708-h943-no?authuser=0)

So, I'm calling the crankshaft a success! 

Next I'll move to the flywheel to get it finished off so that i can fit it and the cam drive gear to the overall assembly.

Again I appreciate everyone that's watching this project and sincerely do appreciate comments and suggestions for improvements!

Enjoy!



Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: propforward on April 12, 2021, 06:57:11 PM
Very nice work - great use of the rotary table to make the crank web - I like that a lot. Came out really well, too.

Also - facing on the reverse (left) side. Smart! It's easy to forget / miss that kind of approach, because so much is done from the "right" side of the part normally.
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: mikehinz on April 12, 2021, 08:16:37 PM
..................use of the rotary table to make the crank web ...............

I was wondering if there way another way to make the crank web in any easier way, perhaps without the rotary table??  I didn't manage to think of a way to do that, but I'm sure there is. 

Thanks for taking a look and certainly appreciate the comments!

Mike
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: propforward on April 12, 2021, 08:40:35 PM
I can think of other approaches, but they all seem more complex. Pretty easy to true the part up in the rotary and then rotate the correct angle.

If you didn't have access to such a fixture, then I suppose you could probably do it using a sine bar type approach, or set up using gauge pins to get the shafts at the right angle, and end mill the web.

By the way - nice job on your brazing. Looks like nice, precise work.
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: Kim on April 13, 2021, 02:20:34 AM
That crank looks great, Mike!

Yeah, I hear people worrying about silver soldering their built-up crank together because the heat might warp the crank.  Looks like you did it successfully without warping.

Just a quick question - what's the difference between Brazing and Silver-soldering?  Are they the same?

Thanks!
Kim
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: propforward on April 13, 2021, 02:24:58 AM
Basically the same. Silver solder is just a particular alloy - one of the lower melting point braze alloys. I’m no expert, but I don’t think there is really any difference.

Edit: I just read that silver soldering involves drawing the alloy into the joint by capillary action, whereas braze involves melting the alloy in situ. Otherwise very similar techniques. Both involve “wetting” the parent metal, and bonding to it rather than melting it.
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: Kim on April 13, 2021, 05:24:06 AM
Cool, Thanks!  I learn something every day on this forum!
Kim
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: mikehinz on April 13, 2021, 03:05:56 PM


...............Just a quick question - what's the difference between Brazing and Silver-soldering?  Are they the same?............

Thanks!
Kim

Ah, a question that I know the answer to!  The difference is essentially the temperature the process occurs at.  Soldering is defined to be below 450C  and brazing above that temp.  Both process involve flowing filler metal into a joint and in either process the temp involved is below the melting point of the base metal.  In general, in my experience brazing will not warp the parts involved but welding almost certainly will.  Whenever you melt the base material and then had molten filler, when the joint cools, the filler shrinks and tends to pull parts out of alignment.  This can be controlled to an extent, but doing so can get tricky and usually you end up straightening parts after welding, if the warping matters. 

Mike
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: crueby on April 13, 2021, 03:28:51 PM


...............Just a quick question - what's the difference between Brazing and Silver-soldering?  Are they the same?............

Thanks!
Kim

Ah, a question that I know the answer to!  The difference is essentially the temperature the process occurs at.  Soldering is defined to be below 450C  and brazing above that temp.  Both process involve flowing filler metal into a joint and in either process the temp involved is below the melting point of the base metal.  In general, in my experience brazing will not warp the parts involved but welding almost certainly will.  Whenever you melt the base material and then had molten filler, when the joint cools, the filler shrinks and tends to pull parts out of alignment.  This can be controlled to an extent, but doing so can get tricky and usually you end up straightening parts after welding, if the warping matters. 

Mike
The terms for silver soldering and hard soldering and silver brazing and brazing get confused, a lot of it depends when you were taught and what country you are in at the moment! Often a topic that generates arguments. Even looking up the technical terms at manufacturers the terms vary for the same thing by country. What most of us here call silver soldering is done in the 1100F to 1450F range, or 688  to 788C. The temperature the 'silver solder' melts at varies with the percentage of silver and other metals. In the model building world, 'soft' soldering is normally the type you can do with a soldering iron at much lower temperatures. 
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: propforward on April 13, 2021, 05:43:26 PM

In general, in my experience brazing will not warp the parts involved but welding almost certainly will.  Whenever you melt the base material and then had molten filler, when the joint cools, the filler shrinks and tends to pull parts out of alignment.  This can be controlled to an extent, but doing so can get tricky and usually you end up straightening parts after welding, if the warping matters. 

Mike

Well put. That's something I'm very familiar with - I design a lot of very large stainless steel (and other) weldments, with precision features. A lot of thought has to go into how much things will shrink, which way they will move and what we do about it afterwards. We have some impressive machinery and machinists that I get to work with, which is really excellent. They don't laugh too hard at my fumbling home hobbyist work.

By contrast, brazing I often feel is a very precise joining technology - especially when having assemblies vacuum or furnace brazed, where you cut braze shimstock for the joint you are making. It's a really wonderful technology that goes back a way. I have some experience in that, but I'm definitely not an expert. It's all fascinating stuff.
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: mikehinz on April 21, 2021, 04:30:35 PM
Over the past few days, I worked on and finished the flywheel and the cam drive gear.  So here goes the process!!

If you go back to my first posts in this thread, I started the flywheel way back when, using a discarded barbell weight that I found in the trash.  It turned very easily and cleaned up well, but the center hole was way too big.  I didn't show any pix of the process but I bored the center hole to 1.45" and made a plug to fill it out of some sort of scrap round bar I had on hand.  I made it to be a slight interference fit in the bore of the cast iron and applied Loctite 603 to it and pressed it into place with my brother's large hydraulic press.  I deliberately made each side that protruded a specific size, 1.00" on one side to grip with a collet and larger on the other side to bear against the press arbor.  Here's a couple of pix after the center portion was pressed into place:

Side 1

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3f6nfdL3pDFlemi6NeKbrqSMKsnW6KeS9wBVtgEw3VVXLdmtO17wniYKa3lQB33kUTDjLMo4CQ7y9GyKrcjGKZnR1c6Axe8Wt3Ha6H5w9k5TV148IoPogRxKZfuGjMv4j--dNAcp3vSZ073_PKeN5x6=w708-h943-no?authuser=0)

Side 2 with the 1.00" stub:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dbAaIGfV8tb16WfGiiKSimK4YeX9Tp2rSDh6jenxCtfr5ZqWRLynj_y6xx-48UTj7AyODp2dUnYnxYSzyQY7Ua0s71D7DCKbzRn7O3KJVhN2AmNYFegsYCtkkngKF7-F9cENqKYD6fW41uHJkM_PD9=w708-h943-no?authuser=0)

Then, since I wasn't sure how the turning would go, I gripped the flywheel by the OD with my 4J chuck and turned down the large diameter stub to .75" and cut it a bit of length off of it. 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cZOp-4alizHnTiZqN-xyKiEjjXKvgjNqfCFuDrua4ElWYRimmaa-3bVlaYeHEvAytE6T1b33OEiT23sfPyuxucr7nPDJ- ABHCqjy7aJZNY1HGSOwcbTIgUJEsdYiOmG0B8CeD4KrKc00NXjBVjGnI0=w708-h943-no?authuser=0)

Then I turned the flywheel around in the lathe and gripped the 1.00" stub with a collet and turned the rest of the stub off.  I also slightly skimmed the side and center of the flywheel just to make sure it was reasonably true at this point.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eMxEddiqLjlzo75VsdIwwmRFvJhRsTBbylS-KaAHqwu7oPrrHcx3bCwm2kXwDIQcgsNzVf0ap6ah4YwijPMYWxj65KV1jBV4C9zEoUiJSlFhbpntBwbz6ORas0ju9cyjnnIEuGfBh1oq5OwXv3NWNY=w708-h943-no?authuser=0)

While still held by the collet, I drilled and reamed the center hole in the flywheel to .3125". 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fmdOne7JEjT_gfrslEpL1XlPZ9GNyb6WI7sjPcl6pxlnBVDBhKNIp6fYgZ_Mjcu5bG51I3Vx5HwbwW32XQ9cBfr5hsHonq5wRK0FLi3YuvwYiAvcH7GBEJqCWJtWKaglgeP5LGcXmcVjrrFDAU8ndJ=w708-h943-no?authuser=0)

Next I inserted a piece of 5/16" drill rod thru the flywheel and fixed in place with Loctite 603 and let it cure overnight.  I let the drill rod protrude a bit as I thought I might require a center, depending on how the piece ran in the lathe.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3c6BeDl6KQhYmbkMlTPeNaB0l7TCZP5sj0HG4CWkktDW17QDuvVwxptRIB2UaBlndTllG2-I-5lzQDN0eLmVOPTHxxOD4BzC3bv0Ss89nwFfPXekwOR0XRFvtCVxclLrGeKQiQ95D5sb0cCUYZbuaum=w708-h943-no?authuser=0)

The flywheel ran pretty well true when gripped by the drill rod so I lightly skimmed the rim on the left side using a left handed tool and also skimmed the face of the flywheel.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3evWW1GTlhvwD0P7snRSCQTES8qnBwtUuJ7jNJt3BaeCosVwi3krkt79AOVqkPIkOugo2JE34MSmxnLMBKxZqkQgJonRTjeNRwMt0KT09Cb2Sjpqj4hkVC4jwDPUnJl6Etrj70mea5smEdylANune5G=w708-h943-no?authuser=0)

Next I used a parting tool to cut the remaining stub off to the required length, which of course also parted the temporary shaft.  It turned out that I didn't need to use a center as the flywheel ran quite true just being held with the collet.  I also skimmed the OD and sides very lightly just to make sure the flywheel ran true when mounted on the shaft. 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3f7JVthrUTHmy9Wt9QrqtD5z3maMXXkbdTgFre4loTZDU90xhCMzBwwYfuMpxeo_V1GeAcOAdJ-Ll0TnRRqfIIHJns1H5psCFt_LxMRdBSYTirSlWLpK1lT6MlyEBfyn2jjDRwtxKciXUabOPEuouTJ=w708-h943-no?authuser=0)

I heated the center and shaft up using my oxy/acetylene torch and put some heavy welding gloves on and twisted the flywheel off.  The Loctite 603 held extremely well!  You can see the residue and a bit of discoloration from the heating process.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dH1z3cjg3a3i5RSKEA_G-OC08PknLgjKNyFczhH-m0CX35lhTovS03GHzlls893JkT8LPc6H8JYDJYpfZr_a7KydV8tst4RMcinyezMAmsCcbQJir4D0ZP10Nz0dr-6XG8InOcgHGaGwLnG5XJyHR6=w708-h943-no?authuser=0)

And after a bit of work with emery cloth, I tried it on the engine frame and crankshaft.  It fit!  Note that this flywheel doesn't really resemble the flywheel as called out in the print.  It's a bit larger OD plus I left the stubs a bit larger and I didn't cut the recess as deep or as close to the shaft as the print calls for.  Most of what I did was because I'm going to mount the cam gear differently and I wanted more meat at the joint between the cast iron portion and the center insert.  In any case, here's what it looks like while in the engine frame.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eKHchO3yngsZUFmjB5D8V4QA7FMH5KQDdSjy3P39lEecaB42ZtEDUuVKGJqAYdWTt9zQlQz249Fv_WO5GTLQlDksrJ2zXzuXcD64PaVwj4DhjQ9VjVb2FWUkL18CHAfOtlRK5ZRnOwTcckE2N6RDUq=w708-h943-no?authuser=0)

Next is the cam drive gear.  I purchased this from McMaster.  It's a 32 DP gear with 24 teeth as per the plans, but it's a 20 degree pressure angle.  I got it since 20 PA gears seem more common and are cheaper and it shouldn't matter since the pitch diameters are identical to what's called out on the print.  .  This gear and it's 48 tool mating gear are of 303 stainless. 

Here's the gear as received from McMaster.  Note it's hubbed with a setscrew.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cjZtslvEPgob1NCQ3Mtg8hXD2ZX8NuvY0Z6rjsPve0vMfBzs3kqfmbt-hVoHeFI_WECj9_tDeAjMe79LGYijXvfnWu_VHsl45cVuvTWgIh6hI8NF3s6jlpTDmPLoCB7E7CJWol_zJiuei9XxLDRRvq=w708-h943-no?authuser=0)

I chucked up the gear in a collet and drilled and reamed the center hole to 5/16"

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fVg3HQrKM5uxyDC-5CauYe4ntIoHIbRLdAuurXN0P31_0Qdl4AS4PeVesexLcruHo2ULPLUs2r74z7AXhyf-4hSR3sCF0PA0nwVretd-9KiU3DyDq7FLI7vCsUZsq_Ics4WgCAlqqdh3YTJSbF3lGx=w708-h943-no?authuser=0)

I measured the available space for the gear and figured that I needed to take about .028" from the hub face to fit the available space between the flywheel and the engine frame.  Note that there's still plenty of material left for the setscrew.  My alternative plan, if I ended up needed to take off a lot more material from the hub, was to retap a hole for a 4-40 setscrew, closer to the face of the gear.  Luckily that wasn't necessary. 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dKM4w5z403OHi_PnzJw1ubhSV4eF5mvhmj2h2jNotsP10yh_wVbv__k3_JXwIJ2ceKAkVSx9_eP1QHKeA-q66SbAPSLwjymWyr8kiYgLybylxZb88sgBd2IZFS5dwx2FCaxBMbeNBUDi5SkldDcmtV=w708-h943-no?authuser=0)

Shown is the flywheel and gear assembled in the frame and luckily everything fits! 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3f-IZ-3m-TlZHf4AzYIp_tpCY68AC2BKglSRuV7KCkPqRj4LoTiVX3p5ebVmVK9EmeSHgpu-K3nDzoNWBKQlDs6zvJLIJp-_9OiDHtF-a4lJVUvfjSscu4J2fIRgiaEZxYtlRHmdHx3IZ2U6pEstzsY=w708-h943-no?authuser=0)

And the last pix of this series, the flywheel, crankshaft and cam drive gear all assembled outside of the frame, showing the relationships between the parts.  Note that I deviated from the plans in a significant way here by reversing the gear orientation and eliminating the crankshaft spacer.  I felt that this is a better arrangement as I can change the cam timing even after the flywheel is pinned.  I think the only trick will be to get the timing close and to then make sure that I can get to the set screw easily when the gears go together.  I think this is possible, but we'll see when it comes time for final assembly.

I'm glad this part is completed.  Onward to the next bits!

Enjoy!

MIke









Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on April 21, 2021, 05:54:57 PM
Nice work Mike and it is looking great. I like how you centered and reamed the gear  :ThumbsUp:.

Be safe and have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: Kim on April 21, 2021, 06:41:10 PM
Using an old dumbbell weight for your flywheel was a pretty interesting choice.  Seems to have worked out well, and very cost-efficient!

Kim
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: mikehinz on April 22, 2021, 10:21:13 PM
Over the last couple of days, I had a bit of time in the shop and managed to build the rocker arm.  I spent a considerable amount of timing thinking about the work process as holding this part gets tricky as the machining progresses.  Here's the pix and process that I followed. 

First I squared up a piece of very rough steel scrap of unknown origin that I had laying around.  No pix of that process as it's boring and very standard.  This pix shows the very small oil hole drilled in the 'top' of the arm.  I put a dime near the hole as you almost can't see the hole without something to compare it with.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cG1sXXm6psDtd-2JazgqeX7m1IXPua3jXSDh4hrhiQa1ZOaAk6B-XvTiG_D6RXkZgwWwMOEnMsBTnz5zMCOzaL2bKrvlRvqf8Bxfhxl3HqIuOOkwkNOxGwiKZnJ_L1phS7L3HleD66YOG2vYdvzTV0=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Next was drilling and tapping the 4-40 hole for the 'tappet'.  Careful reading of the drawing is required as this doesn't go exactly in the center of the stock.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3c_bgWrqss40rxXvoKlLEhvJlV2pw_VFU7_KCu2UDvVEHZ-kTSs4afRR0oubY6kAp1wr1D6OWNqcQiyWCbv5KwL4QFVD-bU356aaKcDdJYK7pxtv_YOYQxkZgwTWbQcr7gkVsaJ_8P4ew_KRZIcWK3E=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

I decided the best way to do the milling on this part was to clamp in on my small tooling plate and then move the clamps around as needed for milling the various bits.  I used some low profile cap screws in the plate to prove a stop and made sure I was milling so that the cutter tended to push the part into the stops.  This pix is of the first milling cut on the end with the 4-40 hole.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3db6lIVAHVFBXFlPx1s9V9lHQh-QG0bb3F9QuEk-t-9Cirf4tASIJpdKx-2vQvGp4CGOWbYcuf6kdD6rkAFWepcR8CZDbbIgdlewGHElbuxHMuseHW5z7RggLE43GilU25hF5k7kWbaWhMkhV5QHNns=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Then flipping the part over and putting a .125" block under the cutout area and clamping it down again.  Using that block allowed pressure to be applied across the part.  Also you can see a thin parallel being used as a work stop on the other end, being oriented with more low profile cap screws installed in the plate.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3djTAL91s9ivoLTAEN82YFQu_8Q4D3RlsJhTszsc2Tv2A_u1G_c1LUDBVH31Fyxc3o0SGeMiPHeyQUBgOJvfz0BgPj8pRcDV8cSm9qc6JNFyOQt9kqTeIkQdDTjh0DqZWS1Z6vyyxhCCYxvtN7JfUrn=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Then moving to the other end of the arm and starting to mill the features.  Note that I added a clamp screwed flat to the plate and pushed into the part.  I started to see a bit of movement and putting that additional stop in place cured the problem.  I think i got lucky as even a bit of movement is a scary thing!

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3ePHzbSOy4aSMyO1Vlq6TGrhlKIK7mUpFhqp_NRafS-Mvxc2BXPqmmSvY02e0afzUqU4pIVKHJT9sCUy1HGvSTEvfEjhBaHycfc7kZPlLBP2anWAQsjo1jIu5JYkNSV27xJaNmQS9M2cgAUnHZjkvwb=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Then the arm finished and laid on the print.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cOq3F3pgiiD3mac6SciBTRJlpNS_rJZsGMINzj1wrpVG-rQJCtYA1oUymS-f2Fx_UWcVli5Nq-fSxNNsmHr1vYint5-q1shx823wbhO0Liuio9UafUsbJvJnfUPQ4y4gIJRKx1cQO22spo6qIuUkrO=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

I made the 2 washers called for, just out of brass as I had some 1/4" brass stock on hand. Shown is parting off the .015" washer.  I cleaned this one and the other one up by rubbing them against a piece of 400 grit sandpaper laid on top of a very cheap small surface plate.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dFjxG0-ZD0LT57CoDG2oENvBMWA_bGLycnSxnb8KgWBiIAUugA-5HS-jJDA6f1cON8Tsk2sZQLP8fUZ7FMNqOWQrfVSOzsXzUyNWv7iezIWsTK2mJznuaHExm9NHFCJjxJgSWOo2txO4lD_2Tpgo8m=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Both of the finished washers on the print.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dmbid0QfXOhDemo3D-r2y8Cr9uzLT3ygvjBklLwT3uPxiyoSej2PQhWtqr2nHmbQPXiJ5MO3dVvj3jvmCj58n6kT8_qbJOsXIV33J3RMR9EISuUXz3N0blKVsJVk-8IAUwnPsB3JdcdCZhQ41q9r89=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

And lastly the arm, washers, tappet, all installed on the frame.  I used an 1/8" shoulder bolt as called for on the prints.  Everything seems to be in the correct place!

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3c-t66VzFe4M-6JrqlXO6nS9alGvAYqJjxVE4eych-AABtFaxd5IBcxtT_-BMjL_eAiLhzkNWVNbLd-tM9EkktvQYWCaIjfQXAtaYg8YRMfXPbTOWegw9CrWuw8ubbJ80l9MNajRh-IABt8Td3-aBZO=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

This arm was indeed tricky and I constantly went back and forth to the print to make sure I was milling in the correct location on the arm.  For whatever reason, I struggled with visualizing how this all had to be done, but in the end, I made it!

All for today.  I'm currently contemplating how to make the cam and gear assembly next.

Enjoy!

Mike



Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on April 23, 2021, 12:57:54 AM
Nice job on the rocker arm Mike.

-Bob
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: RayW on April 23, 2021, 02:32:19 PM
Coming along nicely Mike. Following along with interest.
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: mikehinz on May 02, 2021, 04:30:24 PM
I've made some more progress over the past few days so in this post I'll go over the cam and cam gear build.

Since I purchased a gear from McMaster and it's made of stainless steel, I needed to mod it a bit.  First to hold it, I used a 5c pot collet and shown is boring it out to the OD of the cam gear.  You can see in the pix that there's a 1/4" AL pin inserted in the center of the collet that is closed down on before boring.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dyF19GSmXrgAjsQCQGxnoeyBTZh4xK8Ird7-W1laPqJ8C1LvaH2TzXJILeqJHXJvLb3Og2qiJn7sjl6zKJFQ68j-kMuicVIE3RJhHZtqIdxhPiUoZ3G_I1eg9MNv-dQACsFAnlVw93Q-tvLh-3L-sR=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

I'm not showing all the steps but I drilled and reamed the gear to 5/16" and then pressed and Loctite'd in a 1/4" ID bronze bushing.  I wanted to take this additional step since I didn't purchase a brass gear and this will be running on a drill rod shaft.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cSQ9N7CzRuvpjjQq-n2h9wRsk52ROMAiPlCfK2CRdRb8zxTS_XWeRzRmudvqjv9OKDQSZ1zE890vPeRgmQ-JZZ41iDVM3NUgpMEyeX_Dmgiikni8Yjm8p9uaxVMGykhR9VmbFhTYUuX5SQRWV-sjfv=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Then I made the cam shaft.  This is just a a saw cut piece of 1/4" drill rod that I trimmed to length in the lathe and then used a collet block to drill the hole for the retaining pin as per the drawing.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3f-0_esEia4MnFVHE5Y7Zy_q803V057se8SBvImLDAG9A3JjEIWOGwji4AVm7wWEQ4MtLJeZVYkvdztWZM07YcAjOhrjveOjzf1pisC0ZaDTkS9FVFAZspnSsCTreng4YLsr7-GQB7Jlq_Sg1bbvcF8=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Next I used Loctite 603 and pressed the cam shaft into the engine side frame.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dt1yAtsHg_vPT-ZoDGXNy-kQNh1s1avJ209L_bI12CZg_W58o5LptC3__rd3mRkMlDQrg9-Y8WI2etc15_hAByYcE1p3SzVPJQa51C1xoEzgUjq5S0WQrPxb5KW7PVJ5_plp-EEcExjjcKQ29yERDt=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

After waiting some time for the Loctite used on the cam gear bushing to cure, I put the gear back in the pot collet and trimmed the length of the hub to .185" per the print, but I increased the OD of the hub to 7/16" vs the 3/8" called out on the print.  I wanted a bit more meat for the hub and for the cam itself there's enough material to increase the hole from 3/8" to 7/16" which you'll see in a bit.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3frD108r-3C9808SuRQ2B7ewotoEjOIEYTCBD7ZJCQZHcEcv9AiBxhoTYUNDSGHOhebal0Z7yy_r1SUcQDC2WNSxrHDl3Amy8vjKJHPnlhW8lQPTifr7GVW5XV-bc9EAv7hCbDmUn3ynIf-IY_d9Sp9=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Then I turned the cam gear blank, with the ID increased to 7/16" and the OD to the diameter of the lift portion of the cam, .712"  This was just from a small piece of .750" drill rod.  I spent a considerable amount of time thinking and reading about how to make a cam.  I THINK I understand the various methods being used, but for this cam, I chose one of the more simple methods and generated a drawing that has all the necessary dimensions to machine it.  This exactly matches Webster's cam drawing. 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eNklhD08WOCnp4TXgKckxgnwoHHyAmc5RHa8WB15kXKHECLcES4VhmKoT5pXgQUNOX3mU9mV9G4dp4ssXakXrs6_FkvCxnFZhmezf1u_8A_Mdr3hiQLlIfLM9ByD7Gu0VK8bZMqJY1_iBTKHxaNUxS=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

The way I approached machining the cam was to use a rotary table with a small 3J chuck installed on it.  I zeroed the rotary table under the mill spindle and set the DRO to 0,0 and the RT to zero degrees rotation.  Then I rotated the RT CW by 31.22 degrees and moved the table in X by more than .281" plus 1/2 the diameter of the end mill, so that the cutter just barely touched the blank.  Then I started taking cuts using the Y axis on the mill until I cut one side of the cam flank to the tangent dimension of .281.  Shown is just after the first flank of the cam was cut.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3esBc3hvAkKLKXMnrscT8HA3ekay6mHxeTH3nJuISO83wz-VVDuEhO7HCDohIMh-RpuZCbzyUZHOjXab8twWPaQvC1NY735xUTtdUKCTRc3vqGHMX-lWVgWafh3valfXwvKZ7A3SjdfQjL-5kXdn_ba=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Then I brought the mill table back to 0,0, rotated the RT CCW by 31.22 degrees and moved the mill table in X .281" plus 1/2 the EM diameter the opposite direction and started taking cuts using Y on the mill until the flank tangent dimension was .281".  Shown in the pix is just after the 2nd flank of the cam was cut.  The cam lobe is now clearly apparent. 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fXiMHz8ybcK1pH_3LMyKH4TYnNeM270yKrQr9TI8hivLDEn9UKSB_hpZ--yIzHoeTRV7wLBdl3fXj2lYqmyTJbtlWAB_ZbRt-eTec7j_dh_UuBesDBKatSrF9Sd8VputNLxb8GcKch_MM1R2P_GHq1=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Then brought the mill table back to 0,0 and the RT back to 0 degrees rotation.  This time I moved Y just beyond the .281" diameter and moved back until I just started cutting.  Then I used the rotary table to move 121.22" degrees both CW and CCW from zero so that the non-lift portion of the cam was brought to the spec'd diameter.  And yes I did convert the decimal degree notation to degrees, minutes, seconds for use on the rotary table!    Shown the non-lift area of the cam being cut.  End mill was 1/4" 4 flute carbide cutter. 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3f-meMO6weebbpP50UdMNh-QMvtQt5K2okjlTsch_tzzse-I237pTbhBER1CrPh0_7LHRiVMAPRmnLEwZrNcDzul-ae7oQ3OVs1fGZxHdSJKQP6s2DH9FemrD50jVszzDDryT7ZWLhFjmz6Jdk4ACNl=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

A pix of the cam after cutting but before being parted off.  I did work the cam over on a Scotch Brite wheel to remove any cutter marks and to blend the transitions to the lift portion just a tiny bit.  You can also easily see the increased ID of the cam thru hole. 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dHtXJlJFR1A4x60eDwDx2LfRvL-2JeDiUrtJW-Nv-wAOKXl3Vwilz2SQ6WOCS6IK4p2rkT4OAQMXNdF2_tNLTewmV8A4l3jmk8QB307NxnXFvXCsK2TA1fUrXB1je5yEJFICaspO8xTIPUR-TZK6yr=w941-h706-no?authuser=0)

Checking to make sure the cam ID fits over the cam gear hub OD.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3czaqtk-92gIfNV8Zt0hGcr0khwXORW3wBh9il_lNjRQGc-i-fMicOnUUszxWEzr0n71AaOUMfnMV2xb70fFxDFmXdj0bhVuA-lqxXodm_DQvklhtsZ65O9NQ7joW8UK_AQj0PvNkoJ93k7wkPQ5k76=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Then back to the lathe using a 3/4" collet to part off the cam to the required thickness of .185" 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cp0O4I1FMPfoKCLksaSWt8mPjJyD4xO63k3h7buPJ_9huAun_sepmItP_OrgyzH4bIyhoU6PWbMQiWDGD2ERSQZAhXww4hwXygbF59PvTVggikxCXQWjTN4Np0tjd4swgpewkN-GeKEbp3f-o2ovJM=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

The finished cam laid on its side on the print.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fpW5_yVfmEklhgb0N-biY0nRxT9T7bdHwDqWUPRdBMkXrT44KBbTAxxr7wVw67tx3pmOORBiS630BMg6UAD6bu6fo_-IC2za7FM_RS__PthZTSYc8BgOjpgi6NjTUM_ekYmiclH0ZSrhpQlM7_lPsk=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

And the finished cam stood up on the print after further deburring and a bit more polishing.  To me, the cam looks good with a good enough finish for it's intended use.  A gray Scotch Brite wheel gives a pretty good finish, but you have to be a bit careful with it as you can round of edges fast!

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fOZOqvbytscmj8zndxIP2oV3BJv9j8NYvG2wY9-gTU7wu84NPimWUyUgw4w6z_qak5QaoxWy4vKvc6llaK4fJU8Fj7M_ia4eoGDqwokA6a_Ym6y5tZTaAmcH9_cMUDK9PQVU5YOwhAixe16YfBXn_F=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Then prepping to Loctite the cam onto the cam gear.  I cleaned the parts with acetone and then blew them off with an air hose prior to applying the Loctite.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cXq0TfWF0FdKgn-wUK6zfMtOqt5nHXNmhYNQoqjqtKfbATPuOYSBoCWGaWaJSTocOHNcY3in32lVZ7l8L0SuO7ud0XNwWnP134fvW66yNtd9WGxrnmLRCfW1q1k5B8EgNORoHf1hn6uH-_8FhtJjfN=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

The cam gear and cam assembled.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eTmmjEUQZOCaSkGCrBimhJ1CRy3Zzg5m-d9XNpzg54V5vCuCZnK2apiMua5WrMvb4aIk61Oltgk6FHxBemqCPnwls1_q7oSlaJSRQ9Pc9D4BEWcYDR0G6o8q0yeWIbqs2jpLgbI5uzD10VzWoEZey2=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

And the last pix, the assembled cam and gear on the engine frame.  I still have to check the fit between the crankshaft mounted cam drive gear and the cam gear, so I hope it fits!  But hope springs eternal in ole retired men!

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3f4Yrf8MvsHq1dPT3EP3CxMJBkAQADG_hu15AQqXIqyy7YTJhQ6vrsouwN00jHRRlqU1__B8-DmPFuAqDCtnVc-NhmeN3yeCiR1JXiujTwZdostA3SRGWEXDaDQ-T101t0EP8a14hyIoBMVsbqbD0k7=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

All for now.

Enjoy!

Mike


Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: RReid on May 02, 2021, 08:20:34 PM
The Webster is on my short list of future projects, so I'm following along with real interest. The cam looks great, nice work!  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: Art K on May 02, 2021, 11:01:08 PM
Mike,
I have a lull... in my homebrew process. Life has been very busy of late and this has been my first chance in about a month to do something not related to my parents estate. So while I have time between brewing steps I've been reading about your Webster build. I like your work and how you are personalizing the design to make it your own! I'll try to keep up with your build.
Art
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: Bearcar1 on May 03, 2021, 02:39:52 AM
Nice work Mike. I have been following along since the beginning.  :ThumbsUp:


BC1
Jim
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: propforward on May 03, 2021, 06:30:28 PM
Very nice - some really excellent work there. I particularly enjoy seeing that combination of milling and using a rotary table or dividing head to make complex parts.
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: mikehinz on May 05, 2021, 01:16:03 AM
I really appreciate everyone following along on this build!  Feedback is especially welcome!   This is my first I/C engine so success for sure isnt' guaranteed, but I'm hopeful!

Again, thanks for watching!

Mike
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: mikehinz on May 05, 2021, 01:33:47 AM
I made some more progress and got the valve blocks finished, not the valve guides yet, just the blocks.  Here's the pix of the process I went through. 

I started with some AL bar I had .25" x .75" so the first thing I did was cut 3 rough blanks out of the bar and then setup a stop on the mill vise to help speed up the process of getting the blocks to dimension.  Each was brought to .25" x .625" x 1.0.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eV2ub2-sBDiJ_5wtg7SE3AhPCYnVYQcvzmnBDZNCNshwcQKyX2TjJ3q_5db95YUGjVEh3Rt2EnNyMnxRgNOcQbGOo77AjHOZGnE2E6zbBZnggwNfyPnAUlahZs_pwezMkIAI_jCKvw5w3-ZSOxBj6X=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Each block is a bit different so here I'm putting the countersinks in the top block for the 2-56 screws that hold block assembly together.  I set the stop of the quill and slowly increased the depth using the stop until the screw fit properly.  Then it was a fast and easy matter to move using the DRO to each other location and quickly print the quill down to the stop.  I find if I don't do it this way, I manage to make a bunch of different depths for the countersink which looks ugly!

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3c68sa7-QBQj8iEfY_ecRwE_WDYRik4TGMwem9H6uDRkrgY94XBKgnb6RsTwuPolSlWk74k1NUWzQxo_X7NlGvGotLofT3UpCPcnkiKArxHn5-Bj1MFwkCDHUsNOfWtmayN1K5Y_QMJabM2yrMlZloh=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

The intake an exhaust valve blocks call for a .375 counterbore .031 deep.  I used a 3/8" end mill and raised the table until I touched the surface and then raised it by .031".  This worked quite well as the counterbore was nice and clean.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cjpF8HOrgnktSMZFZM8kiMvIsXsZnfaZfBxgdF4dVmLSEIqe2sUyXbeogs7cOR8ssl-ezkYZk118ltv8v2DNUTvbrJ7CUrSAUBC3HQDKHzI7bGCjpMnU3COoQDp50IKPO0UDXsd8B7BHNX9eNc9fu7=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

The bottom block needed qty 4 holes tapped 2-56.  Here I'm tapping in my usual matter when using small tap.  That's a spring loaded follower and a very small tap wrench. I find this method is reliable and I've not broken a tap in quite some time.  I'm also careful to use Tap Magic on each hole and back out often and clean the hole, unless I'm using a spiral point or spiral flute tap. 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3ddLLSutmNcYu0HwSpLeDB6kLKLZySRiIMJG3875pItxsAki19zivTnFY2altaEyHD_HL8Q2T8bEAznhWgs3TIlyLcjQMWztZqsxKEj5BxMJmXZz2dfKY1r_yedqHH6WebmWDQsroJgQOvZohsW8bjO=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Then the finished valve block laid on the print so that their various features are visible.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cUdhWn0F8uVyXkATHlAo4XaeLARabj-Ualky_Rm4zgkf1RMuNfM7FTiGn6NEXEIAFxSJryrUrmJlpca-fGieFms8lEb0OyUhD9NFgjtcgJ6j1QIMsbk5DJvAMtoP6Pf1HQjMu5k232y4ABq3z1Xh22=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

And lastly, the assembled block loosely attached to the cylinder head/frame. 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cp6dPye3-yGKT9HBErJNYuokKMOZ_STkOG08LqNsBp0FyiaDleP6e57Sqvj3i3sCpXWXSjH1dRI9_51aUXjezB9MUSlVuDCqhZFcWMYjiB-5059QrGJt951uuZv232E1oqXXsFF_u9mq1H9GD0yyFX=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Overall, this went pretty well for me.   Setting up a stop in the vise was very helpful as I could quickly position each block for drilling or whatever the next operation was.  I also put a small punch mark on the 'upper left' of each block so that I used the same edge on each block for reference.  This seemed to work as the blocks all assembled with the holes aligned and the sides even!  I'd hate to ascribe that to skill, but at least I got lucky!

I'm still working away so hopefully in the next day or 2 I'll have some more pix to post.

Enjoy!

Mike
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on May 05, 2021, 01:42:09 AM
Having built the Webster myself, I'll give you a little tip. Use some oiled paper bag material for gaskets between those three pieces. If you don't it will suck air thru those joints and be a miserable thing to start and run.---Brian
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: mikehinz on May 05, 2021, 01:51:11 AM
Having built the Webster myself, I'll give you a little tip. Use some oiled paper bag material for gaskets between those three pieces. If you don't it will suck air thru those joints and be a miserable thing to start and run.---Brian

Brian, duly noted!  I was planning on gaskets anyway and your opinion as an expert certainly nudges me harder to do so.  In fact, I have a new addition, that of  one of those small hobby cutting machines.  I got it with the intend of using it to make gaskets and it looks like it will work.  If I can get it all worked out, I'll document that in a separate post.

Again, thanks for the info and advice!

Mike
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: mikehinz on May 25, 2021, 12:43:32 AM
I decided to make the gaskets for the Webster.  In the past i've just cut out the gaskets by hand using straightedges, punches, utility knives, etc.  But I've never quite been satisfied how they turned out.  So I went out an purchased a Silhouette Portrait 3 hobby cutter and did a bit of experimenting.  I'll do a very quick overview here and show the results, but if anyone is interested, I can post a separate thread that goes into more detail about why I selected this machine and the process needed to actually make gaskets.  So here's the short story.

First, modeled the gaskets in CAD and make a quick drawing to verify dimensions. 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eBsYEaRxmz2CXqiqLEZHsddKoqsCp7Aadfn6yhnp7MkTLivNrF0lTgTwRA3oU7JykxAIWX0g24wg028bUpa7iwvllqCp9LuLRKWib2qPnKWIHamQDmWinOYnxGD1pChMqd6CraBwO_cPmEEhVGU9Az=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

There are then 2 ways to get the necessary vector images into the Silhouette Studio software, which is both a lightweight vector design program and the driver program for the cutter.  You can make dxf files of the sketches used to design the gaskets or you can make a PDF of the gaskets and in either case import the file directly into the Silhouette Studio software.  I won't bother with details of the processes in this post as this is supposed to be brief.  But in the end you'll end up with properly scaled vector images that the machine can cut.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dLZcE3f2v2-PRphq5VMGyV9S88OxdEH6XFXhdv3XTugty4rjVArEGAhmejfEiTlcNY5zyr9yAbFsvRPQB_tHXKxgawFcpnpjCbiZ66gN3vnZIymZxbCYYwTNvFC4qfOuzWXtp_MRbhdhU9hcqXEZ3y=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

This is the actual machine and whatever material you'll be cutting is placed onto the cutting mat which is a thick plastic sheet with a tacky surface. 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fhJYdLh5VKyvgY_cqrGls7cCMdc5JGh_OQZ3bXwr0_envk1XZmsjKjvpFJ4dsXf0Uxfzxj8ixAvaNFoaBVVfsZ7vckkAmExhcLUdq_vTj6vbXso34SRqw3XYjAG1G5duB6eBHCCtde515F_i6fmm_8=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Since I was figuring out what I could cut, I repeatedly cut the required gaskets from different materials.  Shown are successful cuts from 1/64" and 1/32" FelPro Karropak fiber/paper gasket material and .005" and .010" teflon sheet.  I tried to cut some .030" teflon sheet that I had but with the cutter assembly I had in the machine it wouldn't cut it all the way through. 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fED8P62UyIRgL1wDvjpZ9R0HJwGRYDgGmaD_FM5FLvbI8fFblluAtrJsfbQc0JEU0wWHCRk1lgBXI5DWKAI9MsG0F2tCdcHb3kmTnfiTVNyC1l6zCMQ14qRoYxRmGsFRQhYbGr8ZKymiEDX3rKW-9B=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

The gaskets came out better than I had expected.  They're completely accurate dimensionally in all respects and the cuts are smooth ane uniform even on the small holes that the various fasteners pass through. 

I need to do some more experimentation with different cutting heads and but this is good enough for me at this point! 

So, if anyone is interested I can post more about this machine, software, and the process I used.  Just let me know.

Enjoy!

Mike
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: gbritnell on May 25, 2021, 03:55:44 PM
Yes please do.
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: tvoght on May 25, 2021, 04:04:21 PM
I'm interested in the cutter too.   --Tim
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: mikehinz on May 25, 2021, 04:42:58 PM
Ok, since there's some interest, I'll make a more extensive post in 'Tooling & Machines' later today or tomorrow as that seems like the most appropriate forum section.  I need to capture a few screenshots to better illustrate the process so that will take just a bit of time.

Thanks for everyone's interest!

Mike
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: mikehinz on May 27, 2021, 09:31:47 PM
So, this post is going to start a rather long series regarding valve guides/seats and valves.  Currently there's a sad ending but hopefully I'll get to a happy ending sooner or later. 

Since this is all a bit of a learning experience for me, I decided to make the valves by 2 methods, just to see which one worked best for me.  So to start, I decided to try the 'silver braze the valve head to stem' method.  So I cut 2 pieces of 3/32" drill rod to 1.00" length and drilled the retainer hole in the end using a collet block in the mill vise.  The hole was only .040" (#60 drill) so I put a penny coin next to is just so the hole was visible.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fao--FurlJDvtp-TSiJjeeObUWoQXNzxjaYcdxBR7WOKs79rTwkQxSdJhf6R-Bu0Ab4udfbWcdwfn35f7ApJFNtUP1AELUIkn68stJByGysNYGG8CTNhsCt5vLfNyPG_ajnBbZwVH5y5fL3Wv_OD6a=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Both completed 3/32" valve stems laid on the print.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3esXvV2MaIbfVTeOtUNbQqb2febfjjo5KERiNXiG4SvEr7_KeSQKcfPVCVgRpcOghfZcbyoUEOr8cF9X8lPzr-1H5zRrKpvgmo3n8aTsitZv0yMnbvAvPosmPB3qO4zjrQJH14tgFMmpALkeVgLFI3i=w1253-h940-no?authuser=0)

For the one piece valves, since I'll be turning down the stem, I made a gage out of brass.  I just drilled and then reamed a 3/32" hole thru a 3/8" x 3/8" long bit of brass stock. 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fPaxZBJHk1pEx1N0RceKYW3A1XyNkdxjy8HrBHcv__oC22SqEO72vxd7uQgHU45zsqqVQ4kyNqwX7zTqpKDvivm2HLuIJ8C91iHsuXJidJrbTpYegzqMECokMIxHLDu9QZ-aVeBkt4xj2rtnFmELOK=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Next on to the valve guides/seats.  This is just a view of turning the taper on the end of the valve guide using the compound.  Nothing terribly exciting here.  I made these out of ordinary 360 brass based on the advise from Brian Rupnow and others.  This seemed completely sensible to me. 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fg3CTp3jiJ6vAnL0PRFYuZhZP2xYDDoZr-smp7mug8hAO5dDnKQ01p-ngaiXeIoUIxf7si9URmF9FIryTf4NnJtkGor4m5gTqgf-GtWx1dmELf8OdAtN_lgyehxVYkceh30ImM8dXl-HZVihg3YUen=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Here's one partially finished.  The OD is completed, but the ID has to be completed.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cxiO1gjoTzEOp5lQWpKkShNbbjHfQpbwzQ8E1WW8EoqtmaY1UCIeCO9wYb7C0-1arwAPOO7pZFqOS4ncM75ivJgeFTnwuEEoTaKpRQL1RApVmYXKVv6e7rbrsGHyawIKUYWQ5-IXN-yJ3FWa-_E_Wk=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Starting on the ID features.  First, I drilled thru and then reamed with a 3/32" reamer. 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cS1RlCREkIKeCKK0G_7FvCS-RYnxSuXqjGWX8AtyFLGoYATf4XqDipV7am9zhjeQw-CKUKuU1o9w1aihxJ-q
9Xw5jeQ_blCP5dlkXCw266GFohVq_Wu6V8rXN-5pTiaQTMw1bvXIYMkOMeRXtLucv0=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Then drilling the larger ID to the called-out depth on the print.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3d9_ny3HOjKgCMFyc3nV4GJogc5C9JAO_LqagX5M3Z2jcO49dPO4wpVsSAXiITxa7dvbZSMCBgkE5bK1VcIwNU2GUdZa6DuvA_5sSjjkVQ5QO1K7_wHrD3GhfYyaYYBdtjshkXgfxXVjU4PZl_z-SIf=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

I didn't take a pix of critical operation which may turn out to be good or bad.  But at this point, without removing the guide from the collet, I took a 90 degree countersink and lightly touched the lip of the guide to form the valve seat.  It certainly didn't chatter and it LOOKED good upon casual inspection. 

The top view of the finished valve guides.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cCkLSxuELNnxJHMXEu39GJ08uRgcjtKNZ8N2He8rxHINCDU60nd0DBhTnkBN5a-E0KohgXDWXpoM0EvDFqdSETwcA1NpJVIh2Gb73KSX1IFAXJjyPTcpKUsZE9XOki9ulOmr4670gozZzAxyVGe3GI=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

The bottom view of the finished valve guides.  If you look carefully, you can see the very narrow 45 degree seat formed by the countersink tool.  Comments if this approach is good or bad are welcome!

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3d4c7SM3Hee4ytYO5tJmKgslMiBKgcsf-bt-8UCkLXu_Q9dWewlW7AKtGKXcSiH-agY93Jsm89OT5VR67chRSUuibvSe_R1xze6TY5VCXH-oYpLAPOjuhKy0_D9-uJTv0vmwB_ry69ezRAprRpfKpeL=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

The valve guides/seats assembled into the valve blocks.  They were a very easy press fit and I applied Loctite 603 when assembly.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cVBeQ8FhC9WTJqu6lYnwWnL6Q9dOSnG9TPPFiP4u5Tw8g5eOPH4Ry_DjY1hlSUu5IwmZrIk9t8YrU-6J_VSNEb-kfnsduUJgHfTroG0wKHjew2p9rNcVcOg0dF-EZCbL5_9jUMVEuhAWqZq46IIK47=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

The back to the mill.  After carefully locating both holes, I drill thru the brass valve guides/seats with the called out drill.  The operation went perfectly fine.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dY-bIb_Fy6tP5xSdHXN5AVBOmzETEUp1txYs5257rGKlzbq9yPRCsaBz8xr-Rrr0YnZlWZLi03sc_YvVHQwW5QiVec7VIl6JJ6I3isQM4YnCqdkcGL4MCDW1GIiYaG4nXS1GbhmAGrmTuMJDjcDxLU=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

The completed valve blocks after the guides were Loctited in place and drilled thru.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dPXaPhEcU7bQoX4x9nUkns7VUBkyplZAvyct0NfIE9yBhgBLD6YdVODZ0sPXuUcEpkgpNLYV3M_J82x75QbtL4B0oW8ob6u8TcC3qlJqzAUExXa9pUjSuf2sNKW_HPinbDFWbEmEQccGOhE7fm7hXk=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

I, non-so-cleverly, managed not to take any pix of making the valve heads for the 2 piece valves, but here's a pix of the 2 valve bits assembled, but not yet brazed together.  This was pretty straightforward as I turned the tapers after setting over the compound at 45 degrees using an angle block to assure some sort of precision.  The hole thru the center of the valve heads was reamed to 3/32"

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3du9Dzdu5aUIQgX3h5gwcqWwJzYZeyBSOZXVaArv2MdJsR72N7uXKhcOnzcERSFF5N3SVol2fbmD7QhkGhKa34g3YvihLjw_aMfFXHXgxCYL6SRQx7pYnpooI3TInzHqHFiWW4nWk_Xo8aD0tmBJwmi=w711-h947-no?authuser=0[img]

Then after several failures I managed to turn the valve stem diameter down using Brian Rupnow's method of turning down only about .30" of the stem at one time and then progressing the cutting until the full length required is achieved.  I learned that you need to be very careful and very deliberate as it's all too easy to bend the thin stem material or cut a taper on it.  But after a few attempts, I was successful.

[img]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dhdpgC56H_4mITyojXnx-YEA6w9lJAUIt1rI27JsiziQgMt16nnwfEvnFYbQyLbb0buSgODfAfNd-BBswVt0aeZdpOBv-JBQtzwA9gKNThN6hfgLYXyIgQlFKY7jtWtITgIMNue_SRRXsSCFKL3z2v=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Using the gage to make sure the valve stem is uniform along its length.  I used some fine emery cloth to work the stem at any tight places until the gage slide smoothly along the length.  I think that this worked pretty well as the fit is very close but the gage still moved freely.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cPP44UwCN8-eZE87ieiRxdIbz_Ukhbx_PguhLk64YYQgJ7erSPMQ3Oyp0EGcDeIdYcsH6TxKxg8TnmPqzRKiyiWKQK5x2iEvgXTdcF5r2AAMoH0eOhLClE9kxXnH7dVykGGKIOiIyl3LJE0N4P3QtU=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Here's the lathe setup for turning the valve faces at 45 degrees.  I had some difficulty understanding how I'd set this up, but after a bit of thinking and playing, it became clear.  One thing I learned is that if you leave the tool holder set in the normal position, that is perpendicular to the lathe axis, you can cut the stem to diameter using the carriage and then cut the valve face by using the compound without screwing around resetting the tool.  The compound advanced the tool from the stem diameter to the outer face diameter using this setup.  This certainly saves some time and aggravation and I think make the end result a bit better.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cqJ__yHVnmAEnaT6gWNbpzqbJtg8fhHIWiZg-tHKK9R7Xly7UF8dZLIKS6PhgQGgg02VDIci7BLJWNT8Gmo9O28dMAVtEZ1AZjAppKvHX_mILwObxjWIlFSb9tlSiSVWdxIpNtr1xREow3baAIuONa=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Closeup of the valve face being cut.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3f5aom-rYgLchyarWYb1mRFu1dWEI53bvgTjMjc8LQU62bIMAcpjLnXBXf0TZ7ZhMyq75lbxhkW-jH2Yq0gGSle8V6A8Us3ggXl7Bvjh78D-jr5tcytFIkxaCj7xuIW6NauGA-UcTyqYh9DX4ufzGR5=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Moving back to the 2 piece valves.  I cleaned the valve stem and head with acetone and then applied flux to both pieces.  I cut a small piece of silver braze material and laid it on the top of the valve head.  I applied heat with my Victor torch using a 000 tip.  The brazing goes fast with this setup but worked fine.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eQCWA30sy4NHBOGq8UVshwCJGuG4tjapD0v5Ql-3t-qGmqZYssAsUI4Vs8UkQnLNaTGEuK8t_eURN3FRRRshtnWkpWGixPmc0BVTegNLXHFviKmq5vCn2QQYZj-23FzVzHU3-EypTgNMXfmqPc5A0T=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Both 2 piece valves after brazing.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3ePwDp3Zh3Io_2Nh-6da7UJrgnBrPKyl4h-uck5kBEdawqdqWs8On4KeQEEvR8vapSuIFOMJS5fq4qi_QpUD52jc99Ln_bg5XjcuaPglieghjdw75adi3UPkgD0tIWw_eg6a896BfoZOwWbk070Dn27=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

And after cleanup in the lathe.  You can see the uniform silver braze material at the interface between the valve head and the stem.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eepiuoG18r_QSfPKToJiLm4FQ72EfXaCWZ32JM6HlP8p_m0PpCCbSWTIKWI6jkkM0PTG5PZZszEjr1IRLMHwhCWNht6Ue4aOv8UiLiJ165N1aeqYp_yS5HFLSjb6k23zQcvBlbbemv7_4rKu0egHU8=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

So, it looks promising, right???  We'll I decided to do at least a basic check to see how true the valve seats were with the stem.  So I chucked up the valves, both the 2 piece and 1 piece valves and put a DTI on the valve face as shown in the pix.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3e6fpjZprNzuK-NaZEZyvrM-AsYzhB4mcr7lQgudc0yoo2UE1cM9vuIQAOfeE4NVIaESau7-kppZRMMZEpM578B7QJYRNHKdTPT3Fot7zMAoJ_vFLHJ3pfWjfHEFXkyvzoOhwOoPQNQssg21joe_2-n=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

In the end, there was great sadness over the 2 piece valves.  One of them ran out about .0025 and the other one about .0055.  I ended up making 3 one piece valves and on the 2 best ones, one of them had imperceptible runout and the other one had just a few tenths runout.  So I decided to use the one piece valves going forward for this engine.

In retrospect, I realized that I made a fundamental error when making the 2 piece valves.  I should have just cut a disk of .250" material and drilled and reamed a hole thru it and then silver brazed that to the stem.  Then after the brazing operation, I should have then cleaned up the top of the valve, AND I should have cut the valve seat at 45 degrees at that time.  Apparently, even though I had drill rod and a reamed hole, there's enough clearance between the 2 pieces so almost guaranteed that they'll be crooked.  And of course by turning the seat area prior to the brazing operation, I didn't have enough material left to true it up.  So those 2 piece valves went in the trash.

Here are the best 2 one piece valves that I ended up with out of the 3 I made.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3c0qTgq0m6V4qVtFyPI_zTkRbUpFTV7d9kBb9mrnGwSPIChgv5YICbgCZ7V01rM9K32m9oSXTXsN0WE34oqMiuwbM64OfW9oyL3hjBBigEcmeXwrTuvf9cF4-XZgnWjt2r78eXB_ikDyTfaQZgR-zz4=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

So with all the tales of valves not sealing, I decided it would be prudent to make a test rig for the valve block assembly.  I just milled and drilled a piece of .25" AL and installed a press-lock tubing fitting that had a 10-32 thread with an o-ring seal on it.  Shown is the test fixture assembled onto the valve block.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dqsu6oCYgTuC72pp04imFXMt6ulFzqNqlIO8sv-uBSLSanEwvxEXQFz2XVlL8RDSE39en7XCDh-ABg1moDOH7u4dHXuQ7VBYPYx43mp9UxvxbtOpQlHcuRuiyOiKjz4P-XxI2qbkkP57iAVfW8QaL4=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

And the regulator assembly I made.  I purchased a cheap regulator from Harbor Freight and installed an air coupler to get to my shop air supply.  Then there's a 1/8" barb fitting going to the test adapter for the valve block.  Pretty simple, but I wanted something like this for a long time as it makes applying air for test or running steam engines very easy.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dH3ulQ6CnQSysm0VN08wyeRPpc_7lWm9bS_ZOlKzRgRZuo75MJXwXw1jN8U5FNV88X-7-lFGnaysdseT7MNKzYf2GX07EkmJHiT696vfBuuSB0h84nw6h3IktSh-edIZQr5mVuKqFqAlONvr3hQBWo=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

I'll add just a few more pix to round out this part of the story prior to getting to the actual testing.  I made some the valve retainers, modified from the Webster plans as the original design didn't seem capable of retaining the pins.  Due to a series of stupid mistakes, I ended up making 3 different sets before I finally got to these.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dcZpwuxIfG0kDlreWlzxpKPoyIl-DP6PZBE19Vzcgx4WNkMqq6n9VwrMF_n5rny_XkgoaOX9Pza1JUa-y66TJKSqcOMTcVxODZqynp7qf1pILWh7njO0EADNj2TSn8eSvCo7Ys0fhi88FExclPCQvJ=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

The retaining pins.  I cut these from a safety pin since I found one with a wire diameter of .039 which perfectly fit thru the valve stem hole.  Simple but aggravating as they're small!!  I put them on the adhesive side of some masking tape to prevent them from escaping as I'd never find them again!

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3ddgoK2DP9fP0MI1QZgcjD6aWOOkS0Tw_m06DghijoksmvuWpHDaXbgiil8ecfn3WYc6nwTAoylS4RZvVDdHjYzBh4qSoAg2SRVswiCmGKd7yOsoTtxd8iqK_Xr3xNvTPfWUzX5jCiuv7WplZyAJc-O=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Showing a valve, a valve retainer, and pin all assembled. 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dKbR9DjUrOBGHMcoFvuX1wrPnY5_NVT2Enn8RFgoCbS1vntNItDNg_XZ9x4aIhvAy7thusL-9fPWqFXV0aZDAIlKk9b7IEVheUo-F26yrzYvzFyjrzMdotp7Ml-hq0oX3jIJbJnchYIncMNpSmbYRV=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

I also needed to make springs, so based on a spring winding guide that I saw on a YouTube video, I made one as shown.  The idea being that wire up to the hole diameter can be wound and the V at the end will force the wire over regardless of size, up to the limit of the hole size.  Material was a piece of random 1/2" steel rod that I had laying around. 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3e4mLgJH1f47XIWjYjYIlDOV_qt6GgSCldb-dlkuAaQTOozsVFxdZLHOEjjZXyl9RH9C4V3iQkN64zehHy4cIGHkaFrrxsN_eBE2D2X1ifEVrjKAb3LnzatSbxW7pVW0mUatVTt9B8C_09jIddO-NiR=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Shown is the actual making of a spring on the lathe. The tool and method worked out well.  That a 1/8" mandrel that I used for the intake spring.  Wire was .012 guitar string from a local music store.  They refer to it as '12 gauge' string.  To start the spring, I drilled a .040" cross hole near the end of the mandrel and then advanced the spring winding with the lathe setup for threading.  I did practice a bit and found that I could wind starting and ending coils by simply disengaging the feed, and the body of the spring was done with the lead screw engaged and the lathe running at the slowest speed possible. 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3ejJ0JXWd8HioEbsYFmji35758PqFxs86cF2i9NTjBIGRit_XM5JJcHCib66ZSWji5rdInELyt5gdIJfA6cobedjQp6sRSxQcPkSrDN9ljWxe3nObjYiCmRx0jp55yUzBSLCS8vX8vlcWhlr17_3jND=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

The finished inlet spring made from .012 wire.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cQpsq1C48f9J1dt_dQVD16tZX6IK8oeu_pkSYyJfwaiMRn9lrKQGx8k61aOE-B10WnZl0wDs-uxBLETTFlIjnEPYGeaG-OInWQSU1X4ZnGvCBtVWpBXDJ87Yp0miZLQo4v4seuu7q5R06IKWu-sSxn=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

The intake and outlet valve blocks fully assembled, prior to lapping and prior to cutting the valves to length.  The larger exhaust spring was from .022 guitar string and I ended up having to make a mandrel out of 3/16 drill rod turned down to .145".  I used the Machinery Handbook music wire spring winding table and found it to be very close.  I did try the 1/8" mandrel and a 3/16" mandrel and both sizes were wrong, but the .145" mandrel was just right!

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3c1hNWY_mXk-OK5_STzAUNxCualMZE3FXS2b45237HXn8gDqKlaxRrc6yP6DX8NLBN30n4_kkGpGFmSiD72IL6nJY72r34EGizoRRMbih8S9rKp5vZpgWBXzcj_1Ja2Bjb0ip1guqY2jIEdGNQ5juF-=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Commencing lapping.  I applied a bit of TimeSavers extra fine grit mixed with a bit of oil.  I was conservative with the oil so the lapping paste was something like thin grease.  I didn't want it running everywhere so I mixed it on the thick side.  It's hard to see but it's the dark green substance on the valve face.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fHlrI3JCorrbGsfvr7DSp9ZfIpHeFi3_QoCiY5aXqTPBo0Y82D-L3o2B-6XjY0oxN4qIk7crgLeN35SKZNRyJM3zu3b8awOnC2StVnwcqLXp-nakFUDx2H3o-VKRCug-EPzTO5SXX-MvsXzqpX-_Yv=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Both valves after lapping.  You can see the burnished area on each valve.  That burnished area is continuous so at this point, I thought i was successful.  When lapping I rotated the valve with my fingers with only light pressure, about 90 degrees for about 20 repetitions.  Then I picked up the valve and rotated it 90 degrees and repeated the lapping motion.  I did this until I went 360 degrees, then applied a bit more lapping paste and repeated the lapping cycle. 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eaI8K_U0xv9LjUoNYehzxN3O1vLIVOMNWQ_xaQlrz88Fl4QVr_YK6oNcu6x9mMXM2PkHX5vrP0FoEUJXYWsXPZ7a-snxMTMwd9mFINVc-4pdivzjQfiw3-LdGKeHioOunLRuAgc-mxbwfkt9rcVVUQ=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Then I cut off the excessive length, the handle if you will, from each valve and cleaned up the tops.  I was also careful to make sure each valve went back into the same seat it was lapped to.  I scribed an 'I" and an "E" on the valves so I could keep track of them.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fzXf1drrKkZu5iRYjA-i0v3B-vn2M5lETscdNO1mmSGwYucGG9PoTvQ3viyj3nISSETWAZ6XKmH8LqFFJOarP-e9RxmAI8Cs03GQFP3Ofhf3TUMtRbogzXsm-uT1Lhh_82g0t3lbSKwKQQayHnDedk=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

The valve block fully assembled with gaskets!  I had high hopes of success at this point.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eD9wjz9p4X4ip0FG7wpaj1L-JP6DzXCcVY6Kw-O_43JTnS_TNSAKm40tT9AhnFvtvDcBSs7RWUm9bcUFT_lYiq4cVJ0LiP71Q_XUMaNM_GGR_PtxrizHz3wjqEA5pc0pEOTMWULF6amFmtB2gERIeY=w1253-h940-no?authuser=0)

All rigged up and ready to test.  I immersed the assembly in a plastic container of water and got ready to apply the air.  Still full of hope at this point!

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fRSg3BoxUCJ5qQYIxKvZ-TrWy3WyP5FTv2XG4j74nYvv2aBWT2SU0j0WvL_75e_QnCkdK01oEp34e-O3miyVg54hSVokLH_eJ_oDrUNT7-JRSwM1mSiPFg0OSJ51pkbc41Ngz7Z9djDZyG3czcKURK=w711-h947-no?authuser=0[img]

And finally, the horrible, soul-crushing result!  With not even 2 psi, both the intake and the exhaust leaked badly.  So there's certainly No Joy in Mudville tonight!

[img]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3e1moPGe_jm2XOv_9hkkzuI6wQ5lDtvRsYsez2nnuywntT7DQJb8Xwj2MLcHeVzrs32U1FNLj-bJJRO_kRF70EW3Nft4z5q20H5w92W6Em677hYo4csvkHFKSTjWSKif2qVEIILqp6kHrkvGDOG3402=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

I know its hard to see in the pix, but I did carefully examine the block assembly during the testing and I can assure you that both valve were leaking at very low pressure.  I tried several things, putting a bit of oil into the air inlet port, pulling on the valves by hand, rotating the valves a bit by hand while applying air and absolutely nothing made any difference. 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3e1moPGe_jm2XOv_9hkkzuI6wQ5lDtvRsYsez2nnuywntT7DQJb8Xwj2MLcHeVzrs32U1FNLj-bJJRO_kRF70EW3Nft4z5q20H5w92W6Em677hYo4csvkHFKSTjWSKif2qVEIILqp6kHrkvGDOG3402=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

At this point I've disassembled the valve block assembly and started thinking about the problem.  By eye, everything looks ok, but I need to find some sort of magnifier to look at the valve face and seat more carefully.  My current theory is that the lapping process wasn't adequate.  I'm questioning the use of TimeSaver's grit in this application.  I've ordered a small can of 600 grit Clover carborundum paste, mostly based on what Brian Rupnow recommends.  My theory is that perhaps the sealing surfaces are not finely lapped, at least not enough to seal low pressure air.  I'm waiting on the shipment of it to arrive. 

Also I've carefully read what many people do and I've started questioning my use of a 90 degree countersink to cut the valve seat on the lathe when I made the valve guides.  There are lots of references to using a piloted valve seat cutter.  So if further lapping doesn't work, I made try one of those.  Comments on this point??

Also can anyone comment on my testing method?  It seems entirely reasonable to pressure test with air as shown.  But there are a number of people that seem to test with vacuum, and I'm not exactly sure as to why??  The pressure or vacuum methods would seem equivalent, and I actually think that pressure being applied would more accurately represent the actual running condition of the engine.

So, I'm open to any and all suggestions!   I was a hopeless optimist and I've fully fallen into the valves not sealing trap.

Please let me know when you think!

Mike


Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on May 27, 2021, 11:18:51 PM
It all looks very familiar to me. I had problems with my valves too when I built the Webster. I always use my valve seat cutting tool which is guided in part of the valve cage. God Bless George Britnel---if he hadn't shown me how to build this tool I might have never made another engine. I've never had a lot of faith in two part valves soldered together.---Brian
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: mikehinz on May 27, 2021, 11:27:26 PM
It all looks very familiar to me. I had problems with my valves too when I built the Webster. I always use my valve seat cutting tool which is guided in part of the valve cage. God Bless George Britnel---if he hadn't shown me how to build this tool I might have never made another engine. I've never had a lot of faith in two part valves soldered together.---Brian

Brian, thanks for the feedback.  I greatly respect you're views as you have built an incredible number of engines that actually work!  I have a question.  I've download George Britnell's drawing and your drawing of the valve seat cutting tool.  And while I understand the concept, I'm struggling to understand how to make it with enough precision.  Do you use a collet block to hold the drill rod to cut the flutes?  I could see that they might work if I add a work stop for the collet block and make either a 4 or 6 flute cutter.  Also, what about relief on the cutting edge?  How is that developed or is even necessary when cutting brass?  I've seen the Brownells 45 degree piloted cutter mentioned.  My faith in making my own cutting tool is currently low, given my success with the valves, but I think I could make pilots for the Brownell's tool. Any thoughts on both making my own valve seat cutting tool or using a Brownell's tool?

Thanks in advance for your help!

Mike
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on May 28, 2021, 12:19:14 AM
Mike--I was a complete newbee machinist when I made my wonderful Britnel tool. The turning part of it is really quite simple, just make sure that the pilot end is a good sliding fit thru the valve guide portion. The angle should be a true 45 degrees as set by angling your topslide. You probably have a protractor built into your lathe topslide to let you set the angle. The four circular cuts at 90 degrees to one and other are simply plunge cuts with your milling machine. If you have a rotary table with a chuck on it, use it to hold the tool while you plunge cut. You can use a fine file to cut some back relief on the tool, but I find that a back relief isn't really necessary. I made my first tool out of 01 steel and flame hardened and quenched it, but since you are only cutting brass seats you can make it from mild steel.  There is not a whole lot of precision required, except for the diameter of the pilot and the angle. I don't have any collets--I just held the tool in my 3 jaw lathe chuck.---Brian
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: mikehinz on June 01, 2021, 01:08:28 AM
Sadness to report, no joy on getting my valves to seal :'(

Since my last post, I ordered and received some 600 grit carborundum lapping paste and managed to make a George Britnell style valve seat cutting tool, although I'm not all that happy with how it came out.  My attempts at filing some back relief behind the cutting edges were poor at best. 

In any case, I lightly touched each valve seat with the tool and noted just a few fine slivers of brass being cut.  I then lapped the valves and seats together using the 600 grit compound, vs my earlier attempt with 320 grit TimeSavers compound.  I reciprocated the valves against the seats by hand, back and forth about 20 times and then rotated the valve 90 degrees and repeated.  I went through about 10 complete rotations of the lapping action. 

When I look at the valves and seats, there's a clear continuous dull band on the valve face and what looks like the same in the seat. 

I attempted another pressure test and both valves leaked at no more than 2 or 3 psi.  Although this time, the exhaust held pressure slightly better than the intake. 

So, I'm open to suggestions of what to try next. 

My current thinking is that I'll try another round of lapping and if that doesn't work, I'll start remaking the valves and seats and will look at getting a vacuum test system rigged up to check each valve and seat prior to installation in the valve block.  I see a number of people do perform vacuum tests.  But with the valve seats installed in the blocks, and the holes for the ports drilled, I don't see any way of doing vacuum testing at this point.

So, any suggestions and feedback are most certainly welcome. 


Currently discouraged.

Mike
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: Admiral_dk on June 01, 2021, 11:39:59 AM
As you got the nice dull band all the way round the valve and seat - I can't help wondering if that is the place it is leaking ....  :thinking:

How about using water or kerosene, under a low positive pressure from the port side and see if and where it emerges in the combustionchamber ?
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: mikehinz on June 01, 2021, 01:58:41 PM
As you got the nice dull band all the way round the valve and seat - I can't help wondering if that is the place it is leaking ....  :thinking:

How about using water or kerosene, under a low positive pressure from the port side and see if and where it emerges in the combustion chamber ?

I'm testing by immersing the entire valve block in water.  I made a test rig using a plate with an air fitting on it that the entire valve block is attached to via the mounting screws and gaskets.  When I apply air pressure, I can see the bubbles emerging from both the intake and exhaust ports.  I don't think that there's any other place there could be leaks other than the seats.  I do think that your idea of testing individual valves in such a way as to see what's going on it good, but I'm struggling how to do that on a Webster style valve block?  I'm also thinking about the vacuum test method on individual valves, but I've not worked out exactly how to do that.  I need to make a trip to Harbor Freight to look at their manual vacuum pumps, the ones typically used to bleed brakes. 

Anyway, more work on this problem later today.  Hopefully I'll make some progress.

And thanks for the input!

Mike
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: fumopuc on June 01, 2021, 03:22:03 PM
Hi Mike,
I agree with Per.
It is a long time ago, that I have built my Webster, first run was around X-mas 2012.
But first I have had a similar leakage issue too.
It was not the valve / valve seat combination , it was between the vale seat and the aluminium plate close to the port.
Stock is very thin there.
Very difficult to find because it is a couple microns beside the vale / valve seat.
May be it is worth to start an examination at your engine here too.
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: fumopuc on June 01, 2021, 03:27:45 PM
... I assume, I can see the problem at one off your pictures already.
Some Epoxy Glue at the valve seat may help as a salvage.
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: mikehinz on June 01, 2021, 08:25:02 PM
... I assume, I can see the problem at one off your pictures already.
Some Epoxy Glue at the valve seat may help as a salvage.

Achim, thanks very, very much for the tip!  I'd not thought about that area, but you're completely correct that it could be a problem.  I'll examine that are closely and I think I've finally wrapped my head around the idea of how to use a vacuum pump on each valve assembly separately, which should perhaps reveal the issue.  I also just noticed that the hole on my gaskets is .375" so it does NOT in fact cover or seal that valve seat to valve block interface.

I'll report back when I have the results of further inspection and testing.

Again, thanks for the most valuable tip!

Mike
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: Admiral_dk on June 01, 2021, 10:47:58 PM
The reason I suggested using a liquid instead of air in a liquid, was so you could see a very tiny jet streaming out of the faulty area .... But I see that Achim got even closer than me in the meantime  :cheers:
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: mikehinz on June 02, 2021, 01:10:37 AM
Gentlemen, I must thank you both again!  Your suggestions and suspicions were exactly correct!   

I went to the local tool discount store and purchased a small combination vacuum and pressure device, typically used for automotive brakes.  I assembled the exhaust valve assembly with thick grease on the stem and filled the port with thin oil and applied a very modest amount of pressure.  I could see immediately that the oil appeared at the seat to block interface and NOT at the valve/valve seat interface. 

In order to illustrate the problem more clearly, I filled the port with thick red grease and pressured it up again with the hand device.  It took slightly more pressure, but behold what can be see in this pix!!

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cZpMwWvi53IknhcZEnpHjgjizO5N2MLdOMbYL_9zMmfGmqDkcDC7J1a_aeP1Tz98-TF5xAVasGcRuurSLirw6wkBMuMm45Iu2Ps--GJu7xk3UT5YUl1aAdVeNoInNV9n3iYUKgspUWxMtOcoWIq9tC=w708-h943-no?authuser=0)

The leak is clearly at the valve seat to block interface. 

So my next question is what is the cure?  I don't think I can get any JB Weld into that very thin joint.  My current thinking is to remake the valve blocks and possibly the brass seats with a bit more material left on the valve block so as to not break thru with the drill.   

I also note that I made the gaskets with a .375" hole that does NOT cover that interface at all.  Do you think it's worth making gaskets with a smaller hole, say .313" so that interface is covered?  It might be worth testing, but I'm not entirely sure if that would be satisfactory over time, without that interface being properly made. 

Any guidance is certainly welcome as you gentlemen are clearly the masters at this!! 

Again, thanks very, very much as I was completely stuck on this.

Mike
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on June 02, 2021, 01:16:41 AM
Nice detective work, wicking grade Loctite might be a candidate but you would have to remove all the grease first.  :)

Dave
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: fumopuc on June 02, 2021, 07:28:31 AM
Hi Mike,
as Dave already said, that could be a solution.
I do use this Epoxy Glue for such, or similar applications.
https://www.uhu.com/en/product-page.63251 (https://www.uhu.com/en/product-page.63251)
No idea if it is available in your local tool store, but a similar glue can be found for sure.
If you push the valve seat out again, clean it and the block with acetone or similar, to get ride of the grease, than some glue around the valve seat followed by pressing it in again could help.
This mentioned glue is under room temperature like a paste, but if is heated by a hot air gun (100°C) , it will start flowing like water and cure in 10-15 Minutes.
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: Admiral_dk on June 02, 2021, 11:32:28 AM
Glad that I could help - always a satisfation - and even better to see your result so clearly :cheers:

Per
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: mikehinz on June 29, 2021, 09:30:02 PM
Well, where we last were in this sad tale of leaking valves?? 

 I spent a few days thinking about what to do.  I wasn't entirely convinced that Loctite or JB Weld would lead to a good enough seal, so I just decided to bike the bullet and remake the intake and exhaust valve blocks and guides.  Since I'd already shown that, I'll just show the finished product this time. 

So here's the finished valve blocks:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLUi6NmCF4lMynjAQMq6Xu6q8d7iL7eB_82Y3RG5bw1tyekocgwUwey-WKnjqFROzqDn0R6qFDIwnGN1EzGbB9tOSo8r9xvI3iYPkX2xRWeiM5oX1_YQfsj5I4R1RgKksG5anmMg3ObbguNxpXxoydd5=w663-h884-no?authuser=0)

And the new valve guides Loctited into the valve blocks:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLWrnrQsGgoQXlIE2FPUmv4-GBMRVrfznQlfCJecMRa-72W0rryOZoB3jN-DHvbh-TCm7KKrlCXEXunSwTBR00RnBB0pfQPPf7OYDq4zFUwo_taXS995IZbVy9piFjBw0VPrEGc4dYBHg79P56B3lrjr=w663-h884-no?authuser=0)

And after thinking about the new valve guides and old valves, I though to myself that it's probably not a good idea to use the old valves with the brand new guides, so I went ahead and made 2 new valves, just to be on the safe site.  So here's the bits all completed and ready to assemble.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLUEGk5bMcDMVr9V_utv_P26Yb9p9k7D2QZ-L_mH_O71bvhF3OY-OISihAgEu_NVgN2hIfIBcyWVHOZKa8I8mr1WcsYBK1FS21tuO2oQFmrn7PXrBmsp3TvxxCPVRCG_YCHVV6e7uhOgBtYAGsB6RFhj=w663-h884-no?authuser=0)

And finally, a VERY encouraging pix.  This is the valve assembly, immersed in water with somewhere around 40 psi or more applied with NO leaks!!  The pressure applied actually went higher than that, but at some point, I blew the hose off the fitting on the regulator and didn't note at which point it blew, but maybe around 60 psi or so.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLUyNFmlSd4TQ4hUg07pINVHBe1DZRYOB3uLalxUZcHjEMyc_zFlT00u-TqbqPjvXLgqKLVqLVhR2eBNIFkN6-JdFqnP7cKFzpb4TdrA0G8Tx4IzjzZca9TjeY6qMu0umUPNLDzJ3LbBcGQ3hJP_4PMS=w663-h884-no?authuser=0)


So what did I find and then do differently?  We'll I made one stupid mistake when making the 1st set of valve blocks.  I failed to note that the intake and exhaust ports are in effect counterbored with the larger .219" diameter going only .188" deep.  In my first attempt, I had drilled that diameter all the way to the center of the block.  Then I found another possible issue.  I'd modeled this up in Fusion 360 and carefully looked at the thickness between the valve guide and block when drilled all the way through with the .188" diameter.  There's essentially zero material left between the block and the guide at the closest point.  Sooooo, I decided to make the .375" diameter lip of the valve guide a bit thinner and do less of a counterbore in the valve block.  In the end I gained .008" thickness at the thinnest point and left it at that.  Alternatively, I could have drilled through with a smaller bit, say a #16 vs the .188" and that would also solved the problem.   I'd just urge caution to anyone building this engine!

I'll also note a couple of things I found.  I made one of the George Britnell valve seat tools and I must say it was completely an ugly mess, just to my crude filing on it to give the  cutting edges a bit of relief.  However it worked well anyway!  I put a very narrow 45 degree seat on thee valve guides and that turned out to be sufficient.  I lapped the valves with Timesavers extra fine and noted that quite quickly a dull ring developed around the valve faces.  On the intake valve only, I also lapped with some 600 grit carborundum paste and I'm not convinced that added anything to the sealing, but I have no way of really knowing that. 

I'll also note one interesting point that I've seen others mention in other posts.  When the valves and seats are completely dry, say after cleaning with carb cleaner or acetone, I noted they would leakdown on a vacuum test say within 12 or 15 seconds and I also noted some bubbling when checking with pressure under water.  However, when I put a drop or 2 of thin oil in the posts, the vacuum test lasted MUCH longer, certainly more than 30 seconds and with the pressure test, I saw no bubbles at all up to the limit of my test rig, say 60 psi.

So, needless to say, I'm happy as there's every indication that this rework of the valves worked!!

Enjoy.

Mike.

Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: mikehinz on June 29, 2021, 09:52:14 PM
Since it appears that I made some progress on getting a good valve block assembly, I moved on to getting the remaining bits finished so that I can do the final assembly.

I made the exhaust from a piece of 3/8" brass rod.  I'm not showing any of the lathe work as that's pretty straightforward.  I am showing how I cut the angled feature on the end.  I just held the turned bit of brass in a collet block and used an angle block to set it to 30 degrees in my mill vise.  Then I just chopped if off with a slitting saw.  It's always remarkable to me how cleanly a slitting saw leaves the cut! 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLVVT1-HZE3DD4H7-bu7WqAOaXTcK27OOaxxPkCXIjRdYZaf8W0SUeIoQQMHKPdSeJd1KGS7op9DyTkj92wBfDYJz2sR8P4hhsa4CBllMSp29uPqSfl_XAEFZSIbiC8SJoCttcERo1wbxBiClE6qjL5H=w663-h884-no?authuser=0)

The finished exhaust pipe on the print.  Note that I didn't' include the smaller diameter at the end as it didn't add anything and was going to be paper thin anyway. 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLXLDFwHlZ70jRNTBn11Q9_2VXCKQGymvHK7SU7Ydw2ruXEsaYbiws3Tn9xW7t2EYhB4xSW3UmrOuUYYkSsOoXtzVjJalnVKhWnlczQRdzzwxuY1voM7RpuRIcc-p5QMK791IpSWuEl2lTeKz2FyQF90=w663-h884-no?authuser=0)

Then I made the carb adapter out of some brass I had on hand.  I'm just showing the finished part as there wasn't anything really tricky about the lathe work on this.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLWBLmIZQkqhaxKyjymuwhpRkPUwsndgV6ArUfihHdky5EUYvuFXw6P4CXzaYRM3v1GuLBTOHEvsq0Z3uReif9rvl6pSw1EYIyLZulVHvAnO9H0tqsUzNcXUa56ga7sJXlXzOYFmTZKg1ConSIEnlre7=w663-h884-no?authuser=0)

And lastly, the carb applied to the adapter secured with some Loctite 638 retaining compound.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLW61CvvFYq4ImCOuUe60TacTvTChdFG3-WBYcui6ax_QhrWhWTEkZDKESvPJS2H2zyy-E8IkJRejjem5cyQfVBwnXKWYXPm53xNup6I386dHLIx2Rq-YzqOgYmrQ-bfRbXAvE8U60VUhaKe3LIXmTv0=w663-h884-no?authuser=0)

And for the last part in this post, I made the leave spring for the exhaust valve return.  I was able to get some junk recoil starters from a local mower shop.  I noted something quite interesting.  One of the spring I salvaged had a fair bit of surface rust and some deep rust in places.  I cut out one of the better sections of it to make the spring.  When attempting to bend this material, it would almost immediately snap apart when bent over even a fairly large radius.  The other spring that I got from the local shop was a NOS spring, that was pristine and even still have the old packaging and oil on it.  I could easily bend that spring as needed without it snapped.  I found that quite interesting as I had no idea that spring steel could deteriorate so dramatically. 

In any case, springs are hard and to make the mounting hole, I put it in the mill vise and simply milled thru it with a .125" carbide end mill and jogged each axis just a bit to enlarge the hole enough to pass the 6-32 mounting screw.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLXbvQEYZvb8rkD9bQXG2It4TN0eRR5tKSMP5w-I2ejzPLFX9w736Zv8l1S6oLV1NIz-VnYAAaB0P0Bk4J0ON6sUQCp7kH5z_-2MJMZ9MJ4N1bXSzv7FVVQCMXUELbk1jnDH2HMeDE7k6fIdhVOLt-5L=w663-h884-no?authuser=0)

And here's the spring mounted on the engine frame.  It fit well and seemed to provide more than sufficient pressure for the follower against the cam.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLXIpYj62i4-_E1OqMBy0rGj3_6SNJTJSJapHO4gOuu4Iy0KEiFMX-he7gKV6ZlGwZxKMwGPAdGXVGjmWAsl0gbxcP4HF8WnjoTiC4ftH1s4F8HvdtHTHkXHVQxL-hbHzdJ9W3Cl6553b4Szyi6QQKx_=w1179-h884-no?authuser=0)

All for this post.

Enjoy!

Mike
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: mikehinz on June 30, 2021, 03:56:11 PM
So, I'm at long last getting close to the end of this engine build.  Next up is the ignition system. 

For my first I/C engine, I wanted to go with something that was more of sure bet vs trying to do my own home-brew system.  I purchased an SIS CDI type ignition system from Roy School at cncengines.com.  I must say, this worked out very well as it has operated flawlessly an is very easy to setup.  Here's my bench test setup.    The spark plug is a NGK CM-6 purchased from a local auto parts store.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLVjY5PL3y37WdUiWZGUpH--03ku4PFsDwMruD9d5VGRm6R7XWaWkODNHJNUKrMgbbCcVqUn2RDhxlH9WLoSyg4-dtvHxCkYhBMYO0NQ3AOszryePwn3ytLE3qHiajImxIi74R9aS1nIDsb0cPlsAIks=w1263-h947-no?authuser=0)

I determined 2 important things from this test setup.  The hall effect sensor is sensitive to the polarity of the magnet so you have to make sure it's oriented properly when mounted on the engine.  And also the spark occurs when the timing light on the CDI goes out, not when it first lights up. 

To mount the magnet on the engine crankshaft, I used a 1" piece of Delrin and drilled/reamed for the crankshaft and parted it off .1875" thick.  Then I drilled a small 1/8" hole near the rim to press the magnet in.  I made it a press fit but also put a drop of SuperGlue in the hole as iI pressed the magnet in place.  I also drilled and tapped for a 4-40 setscrew in from the edge of the disk to the center.  I positioned that hole 180 degrees from the magnet so that I'd easy access when setting the timing.  Here's the end result:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLX0q0G459VJ-EBzvvg_okiMSPsEuDe4xW49ft1_rj0AHTtGF4NCv73WTLSXl5EdEzaGhA9uHuDOxysbv3-p6HfLWdZ4qrkdC_Ibhm4XYYkcWEpouR3QGv1z-ow7kFVe4UwufXeC9H544otsJTNE5Qfj=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

To mount the hall effect pickup, I used Roy Scholl's parts and simply cut the mounting straps shorter and drilled and tapped 2x 6-32 holes on the engine side plate so as to position the sensor under the magnet disk as it rotates.  Using Roy's holder assures that there's no possibly conductivity between the hall effect device and the engine frame.  I didn't bother to make the pickup have adjustable timing as I can easily change the timing using the magnet disk and rotating it.  The engine of course has to be stopped to the adjustment vs having an on-the-fly adjustment on the pickup.  I also added a bit of silicon sealant to the bottom of the holder in order to secure the wire into place.  Here's what the mounting looks like:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLXctVKOzg_DSvI9J10f37d0a1RUZyG4X4YU0E2kmnxtVErndrwzcADeDDJPf8e7SzNzPiuzS8cznw1wQ_7xgdzKC0ar6POkf_9Q_-0KyMwpQuV3zSPDN3vvqZV8r0P8NfbQEDHWXRbC3ghobBpXIPmV=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Another view of the ignition system as mounted on the engine when partially assembled:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLUVbQOR2yNFrxYYSvkbczoIwR49qxu6U-TCtk2cdIIYgJwYONsd_sxJLAX9iMAO5i8uUx1s6GgCXhmZi_uWseTLnwZXJYfClm6duraXVysXzPQpyMXSTsi07Q-pjT256SpwniahAsBXOUEd-ZMI7-wo=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

And that's it for the ignition system.  At least it all works on the bench!

Enjoy.

Mike
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: mikehinz on June 30, 2021, 04:26:07 PM
On to the fuel system.  I came to the conclusion, purely based on my own personal preferences, that I'd use a model airplane fuel tank for 2 reasons.    1)  Since this engine isn't attempting to be a scaled down realistic model I didn't feel any need to make anything even semi-realistic and 2)  I wanted something that I could easily fill, empty, move around, and be completely non-corrosive since I've had a lot of problems with small engines and fuel that sat too long in the past. 

It turns out here in Wichita, KS there's a very large hobby shop and more importantly the owner/manager turned out to be extremely knowledgeable regarding fuel compatibility of commonly supplied model aircraft fuel systems and gasoline.   And he even had the necessary bits in stock!  Everyone may already know this, but the standard tubing and fittings for model aircraft is methanol based and requires silicon tubing and fittings.  That turns out to be disastrous for gasoline.  You need Tygon tubing and what appears to be nitrile rubber fittings.  Here's what he sold me to solve the compatibility issue:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLW3ft9uhgCi2CprADjB30Ac5ZJKYHDPf4fyWfw45YX14Clo_aRlXm2a2DfrTJcbMAn4LGQgx8WyTUUKr0HgW536BpKidewhGggKGWWdzrNhjuDFY_GePQ1ah60K1BdBJm33vB5kMihly6IZbslm9sXJ=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

And here's the tank I purchased.  4 fluid ounce capacity.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLVnzJQT6nGvXj7txOc5mE7tiRLdH2pZ6sa8KlRtVwK5JHtuV2oK8eZYgUsBY4FDhfiyTetwEHCLmPQxBxZal9fa0SD9bo6TtvWuYXftr4AjRR-GQhW6x4A198zzsRbMLMsHd9uV9Oty1umVOLVZMcVW=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

And here's the fuel I want to try.  First is a can of Echo RedArmour 2 stroke mix fuel with no alcohol.  It's premixed at a 50:1 ratio.  Next is Coleman camp fuel that I'll add one bottle of Echo 2 stroke oil into to also give a 50:1 mix.  I purchased the large syringe to try to have a good fill method, but that turned out to be a bad idea as gasoline attacks the seal in the syringe very quickly.  I'll try the gasoline premix first and then if the engine runs successfully I'll try the Coleman fuel. 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLXNOUbjl9SJNiP1FDvkuyvMFVSh4xpwwAHQo1Ax4R2ySInR62irYnajye9IJnhAAtCywUoqTeAZFi6MkWcunoX-bU-oSKjLsOQw3gW7EPkFc7ebiX3mworKdH1iTw62MpS6iAEoSU75k9plv3uoCFbv=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

This is the fuel tank ready to be used on the engine.  It's actually quite nice.  There's a proper vent and the cap is secured by tightening a screw that draws the 2 hard pieces together compressing the stopper into the neck of the fuel tank. 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLV3PEKuE18_SwRO7zuk5paaC6muxOK-32oQPgw9cEgGTuFLo5LFccZLukN7RPx01ljc6GK-fIgrC1TZTGfywWdK0jfaPVhC6Eij1PppJK6RwlG6IFf53IIrbItabj_fOnEuYVjv37b9xp5cOnI6ZKVi=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

And that's it for the fuel system, cheap, simple and reliable, however not at all attractive from a scale model perspective.

Enjoy!

Mike

Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: mikehinz on June 30, 2021, 05:05:51 PM
So onto the last piece that I need to make for this engine, the starter hub copied entirely from Brian Rupnow's excellent design.

I had a piece of 1.375 bar stock laying around.  I don't know exactly what alloy it is but it's quite free cutting, so possibly 1215??  I just chucked it up and turned the 2 OD's required, 1.25" and 1.00".  I left the 1" section longer than specified as I need some way to hold it for drilling the various holes at 90 degrees to the axis.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLVSBlTzjSzD3l0HD2DphjXK15fmQk1ZojhPN1GAMUODgPQvHPQXDG9ofX-Gm2CX4zC9aKKlo3AR1u7slkM0rwOuZlsTTIWOaBHH0-qAlHoDpZCRrbNOY8bEbeIV9cRf4kUyoBDvXgKeFIo8PzWwEnxg=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Drilled and reamed to 5/16" to fit the crankshaft.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLUTF0lVCyxJ3xGuyPSmjgDJoC7QQGeoKHpfUn1eyhMZrAZjxK76OA0KspuoaoLqcEZsCA-6lVvL_xduMGm87xv7MtjR7jL1ncUpTcNT2MVwfXR2ZuE4yMfYsM-5Jdnmziu7mejLpEZNgjQCO_rmRKgz=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Parted off from the piece of round bar.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLWMmp401gtoetrzgs3M481Ubl_4KgO86lQtnhlbJr1CY7IbRWSE-qKG1DiscOTv8NsGM6tSDN4I7sFGCE7EJfMFpyHJM1ilhvY_4zUMvmX9FfNEzq1QSVvOHv8YQjuzD2JvXcPlbObI5M9AM3nb0FY-=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Turned the parts around and faced off the parted off bit and brought it to the required dimension.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLWI8cRNGeOv_lAGDV9lJjFxubaNBB992yhIfon7w8b_lx0czYlBefEfNcKpg3dsoYCLP-Xp98RCNHR-xvKKhCWaS-vDCb38ETKBFTlgpAJaN-ajhjD-hsLFcd8SrJgMaNwDRQbecRdCraSJekYgSVqA=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Boring out the larger end. 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLWyS5juusAGoOr8Bf4Pnvn0s4pNyXfa8efjqGV4rko5zuK5ZuhSuCI85APnopNWyh8msbJG0bNEJkGfz4pD93nBPSGQSFJV-COqnB3IagshyM0gzaqzLyPKxPYJzQHiUGfU14yCprwu7lC6o2SCMyJi=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Here you can see the method to my madness.  By leaving the 1.00" OD long, I could grip it with a collet mounted in a collet block and by using a stop I could get the holes in the correct position from the end and get them indexed at 90 and 180 degrees as specified.  Here I'm in the process of tapping the 8-32 holes that will secure the hub to the crankshaft.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLVspuNl_8CeLDVVEaoAaj77xfssF-Q2ErzxfM4EfbUn7MteIJegpC0nlz4dKMWfqWxnnhNBslOGFhTvFze9UODwEx5PqxmhcTsmiKn1gerCvK_pudVu7Y-tzOcVkVU-cFqC6yBXHYvzwC-2hiiyyMH0=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Parting off the excess material that was used to hold the part in the collet block.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLUXptI-7uFKAnf7HcyAtop2-sV47BKFEVSnZuO2f7UeKF27AgyKF1MwuupxOSB-HxCOYPCTrsaoTbp83fnl1xY3MlBMU4rbb5N1xPDnBymmyNgetdyjQxNvPY1pdzjyIhTPXnFRkWl5oJZ3euhU4g26=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Getting ready to broach for the keyway in the hub.  I bought a relatively inexpensiv broach set from Shars that has a maximum broach size of 1/8" and the largest bushing size of 1/2".  I imagine that this is all I'll ever need for model engines and I can always purchase better quality single broaches if needed.  The 1/8" broach shown requires an additional pass with the shim inserted.   I've also got a piece of 1/8" keystock that I'll cut the key from.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLXJQxH5JEQzdWuysq2RYuhGWReXQUZgZ69kM7O8n5h-xLdf45QKRDiD-lpL1XCORnuvvPFB6KhGjy7fhM57yQIxmPY_lIUmzCs0zxB3jzCAUxmNG0JCXeQP0DyKreBTNXTCOH5-nJYZaw5oOm1GjZdq=w863-h947-no?authuser=0)

Pressing the broach through the hub with my old Dake 1 ton press.  I found that press locally and its missing the anvil so I need to make or purchase one for it. 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLXGVjE-J2xIPGQrEr2sNQjQZoo8TsGxvigzGCrf7ephMjpIvf1xl9GGZNHMgdwCXBwMKTLrfFL2rf6jMd0Hwi0TVcd9Tq7XtxyJdQ3bk_GZdxJhzSr_NgsLhA7qfO-pICj93XM8R5K9ZyyGXkUBACaY=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

The key cut and fitted to the crankshaft.  It turned out that I needed to grind just a bit off the thickness of the key so that the parts would go together. 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLVbNyTu18Wty0wvixOy5aeVVNqsdwkK0TYdbOIloBiMbz7USxx5xjJ0JAl3oxjO5K0Szp7PAwPUKmAMxVZWjUsPKe05ccpB24i_SlNZEki1AKMmtHCa5LDe2qqu5Audq5ycB7of_1hMLupyqtlVVnD4=w1263-h947-no?authuser=0)

The starter spud and the starter hub together on the bench.  I didn't take any pix of making the starter spud as its straightforward turning followed by milling a couple of slots while held in a collet block on the mill.  I'm very excited to try this combo out as it will for sure make engine starting attempts much, much easier.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLViQm8rB-AcibDoMiQSDVFLV5jjJyb3mnMWfuc2HTu-ZndsCT7tVRz0Rgj4BWZ42DaAu5gf8jIFvE5SMFkxbc9gwnIvR-KN8OHDBLH5oSbTSnbF_ypek_1fiaADBm65gvMFhe1Er-2DAFabACOcuoM0=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

So that completes all the parts required for the engine.  Next is assembly and securing the flywheel. 

Enjoy!

Mike
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: mikehinz on July 01, 2021, 12:15:49 AM
At long last, I'm down to the final assembly of the engine! 

The first task is to set the exhaust valve timing.  Since I changed the design to have the crankshaft mounted timing gear separate from the flywheel, I set the relationship between the two gears in such a way that the setscrew is facing upward and then set the timing.  Since the exhaust valve is supposed to open 15 degree BBDC, I mounted the engine base in the mill vise and used a 5 degree angle block on top of the crank web to set the position of the crankshaft.  I used the 5 degree block since the crank counterbalance is 20 degrees and 1/2 of that is 10 degrees.  The DTI is just to make sure that the position is correct.  This arrangement will allow me to change the exhaust valve timing easily at any time without having to drive out the roll pins and redrill. 

View of the setup from the front.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLWHcVbWPqSSG_H02ww5Wc61Fx1oe1OOZ_HZyjkn48rN2ExsHOrt57am-lChrVUDgdNr02RFfvDYwVgE2mG7XT7ELF0wexXFnwz3oLY03Echo-a147oyV03ynwRnKJ6TNHS3wjsTLjtGsrYIjHzKpgcV=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

View of the setup from the rear.  If you look closely you can see the setscrew for the gear facing upward.  After setting the timing, I marked the gears where they meshed. 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLXrI0UGpFMlM4kmezXwoaLPqpf6MZNE1PdDr5nvdzHQXNs0M8ZVmPTKHZBs3rz3pqsFmQPfu46ovO7z48U-kv3L_0Tulq1Xt5t6BNxuEF1lJ549CCvBpTpd_S1uvDBDfzJ5N0FAldGkgiYIQEc-AiEQ=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Then on to the dreaded task of pinning the flywheel to the crankshaft.  Rather than taking the time to make a fixture to secure things, and since there's very little force on the flywheel or crank when drilling exactly on the centerline, I decided to use a very Rube Goldberg setup.  I put a Kant-Twist clamp on the crankshaft and a small c-clamp on the flywheel and then secured both of those against upward rotation from using some mill table toe clamps.  I know it's horrible, so look away quickly!

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLW1xw_Vzgf0Uqo6wBgiHzpi_PiJ7YxB1SDdDK2H3ACTg7iW4SQykA031BqfJOjNh7wr1B5zAAydYt0VHuEQKnShHODw6m0uwPVALs7gKNEoKLAAi21f_WYsny5jxYjCBlcpsxd5uFNEfdYa6kH2Uq_K=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

With the setup in place, I found the centerline of the crankshaft and then located the middle of the flywheel boss just by eye.  I used a small extended length center drill to gently place a starting point on the flywheel.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLUvQVT_aIkua3_8ZrODcBRYzb_HAuQlQZ-eWvDwpgTTasNYHBF_4j_QbG4Bo9wWx9P04ZKYLK5urg7NBRTxtbaoRf5ho_EQmEQh3-aEv69W2_jkPWEXvQj6mRgPYio54vfhEHyTUoLSN6uKptR5Hobf=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Just for comparison of drill lengths, the middle is a standard jobbers length 3/32" drill.  The top is an 'aircraft' drill 6" long, and the bottom is the extended length center drill.  Luckily aircraft drills are very easy to purchase locally due to all the aircraft industry in the area. 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLXC2ZgiQ-LdOSwyGCy3KOH2UL4ysh_6_FDRD4Fo1k4Pux5v7I5JZWKarjmUv_g3-VN9WznMdB9Ef_z47PrI8h8j4mN_bS8F_IDxwzjq6l1rStFHzmgiCyP72bK_BD-hQhY8S4JHbkBiz8uW6Vg1SeOQ=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

Drilling the 3/32" hole thru the first side of the flywheel and crankshaft.  The operation went fine.  I was very careful to clear chips frequently and used liberal amounts of cutting oil during drilling.  In retrospect, I wish i would have used a different method of mounting the flywheel, just so assembly/disassembly is easier.  Knowing what I know now, I should have milled a groove for a 1/8" key on the crankshaft (or maybe a Woodruff key slot) and then broached a keyway in the flywheel and used setscrews to secure the key.  Maybe on the next engine.  I did the same on the other side of the flywheel and then drove in 3/3/2 roll pins (aka spring pins) in each hole.  No pix of these operations as the drilling was exactly the same as the 1st side and I needed both hands to get the pins driven into place. 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLVOGNyXqXsEPNceF0hnqBqd2yJdqmehTIw1925Is31kHm8q_NH_p0cnBKYzcpR2aZx2z0aUYybfoNrECaZ05gj9fRVWdNabQExsv79Hyx0091PSLDE-1W0haEkq4w1W9QQlXD5YoX2uYv-1-6IVRDxf=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

The engine getting close to being completely assembled.  The ignition system is mounted and the valve block with the muffler, carb adapter, and carb is attached.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLXy806fr7clfp_m31vDsFfVGhtitWZHYxU3WZvLXEXIrJ2en9tqCJJG3mFHIx5ST8GJztslmuqrWaDcQGzXc--ncqLDdhQrkEGWaggttolWxCgyJ22kyyDnihDTLF9hmiuec_D73QaVWSq0giLNm6RS=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

I moved the assembled engine over to my hot work table and prepared for the first run attempt.  This is the 1st pix from the starter hub side.  Note that I've got my drill motor ready to go and the fuel tank attached with a couple of ounces of pre-mix gasoline in it.  I also put the engine on a piece of 2 x 6 lumber and used a c-clamp to fasten it to the table. 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLVcM38hVu9Ltkk6DGZbol3ViAg98QGqFpH9E7BQtlwTUwPgPW88237YxKbzK56t6-U9YHLxayYbJHtktABgMm-z1RteegQfcKwJ1ZrrVwjs3PxEAu8dq50byyTPp3pU6lH-TW6jgL8UemCiKFOP5EKR=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

A pix from the other side of the engine.  You can see the S/S ignition system all hooked up.  The ground is secured to the cylinder head/cylinder block by a 6-32 cap screw.  I'm using rechargeable NiMh AA batteries to power the ignition as advised by Roy Scholl. 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLXeFJZW7rl-farKIgGvZYhzKZrm95eCMrLwesReyw_Vx4MyIBRhr4ESUo-PetnxhT2tQEdhHx6YUqHY0plyd_fZ9wyrvVjC9KrhaCAig7PpiJXNoLnzAGj2Ae4xzyyiiW_v7Gi0nOU_Fx-z6_HXToVQ=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

And the last pix of my test setup.  The most important point is that I'm going test right right next to the open garage door and I have a fire extinguisher set and ready to go if required.  The propane tank will be moved before any starting attempt occurs. 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLWe1sao_kxixbr2bpNqNPf888bThTJWE49kwz5fwMY6VE9tD2zaDhUcokTLAAOA-VOLYzJw7ZVC3c9QSQl_ElWJAQrBZVl3s2UNFBgI4frtQ8Wf-gk_MefrL-qLck4NcGlFuFZzgK-Kj6Is9ggCmn8I=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

So, that's it.  The engine is complete and tomorrow is will be the first attempt at starting it.  Wish me luck!

Enjoy!

Mike

Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: RReid on July 01, 2021, 12:39:51 AM
Big day tomorrow - Good Luck!  :ThumbsUp:

I'm sure it will go well, it looks like you've done a great job on the engine.
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: mikehinz on July 01, 2021, 10:15:16 PM
Very early today was the big event, my first attempt to start the Webster engine that I just completed!!

Prior to attempting to start the engine, there was at least one encouraging sign, that being that the engine would strongly snap back when rotating the flywheel by hand against compression. 

So without further ado, here's the result:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GW1sZmSiMn0

I used my drill motor and started spinning the engine and briefly choked it with my finger over the carb intake.  I immediately saw fuel start to pickup and flow in the tubing and as soon as I removed my finger, the engine started!!!!! :cartwheel:

I grabbed my phone out of my pocket and quickly took the rather poor quality view that's embedded here. 

It turned out to be not all sunshine and roses as the engine would only run at the rpm in the video.  It would neither idle nor accelerate and frankly it didn run all that good, at least to my ear.  Then after about 2 1/2 minutes it died and couldn't be restarted.  I let the engine cool off and need some troubleshooting and work that I'll document in a post coming up here shortly.

Enjoy!!

Mike
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: mikehinz on July 01, 2021, 10:54:40 PM
So after the first run, shortly followed some sort of failure, I let the engine cool and started looking at the issue(s). 

I noticed 2 things right away.  I could see the teflon gasket material budging out of the valve block assembly and I noticed that the engine had no compression when turning it over by hand.  I was hopeful that the two things were related.  So the first thing I did was to take off the valve block and tear it apart.  Here's what I found:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLU5X2RsGVKLIH3gLch67a_g-UTM2C0viZesFr4uG_Gw7RsgdOs9Ogorw6sqG7ZFpcq6PjtqvuUfU8PBwm5n76_E9PqYD9MZd2BLMvmkErKhoJfmotJ_5C8DIpg1ySpwWbPxHgywuOg27DLeXP391PWM=w711-h947-no?authuser=0)

I had used .005 teflon sheet, thinking that I was clever  :'( but that definitely wasn't the case.  Teflon is supposed to withstand high temperatures, but it apparently looses strength and with some pressure applied it just flowed out the joints between the blocks.  Luckily, back when I was getting my Silhouette cutter setup, I cut some additional gaskets out of FelPro paper/fiber material and had a couple of gaskets cut from some 1/64" material.  So I installed those gaskets and reinstalled the valve block on the engine. 

I could immediately feel that the compression had returned when rotating the flywheel by hand, so my hopes were up!  I did in fact, restart the engine after a bit of putzing around and it ran, but as before, only at mid range rpm and it wouldn't idle or go to any higher rpm.  So I shut it down again and started looking at things. 

I found the Traxxas carb settings guide and made sure that the carb was set to the factor settings.  Then I looked at the exhaust valve timing and it looks to be set exactly as specified.  But I then checked the ignition timing and it was set to almost TDC or maybe even very slightly after TDC.  So I reset the ignition timing to about 10 or 12 degrees BTDC which is a bit more advanced than the plans call for, but seems to be a common recommendation for non-advancing type ignition systems on model engines.  I really came to appreciate Roy Scholl's ignition system during this work as the LED timing light was invaluable!

Then I started the engine one more time and noted that it seemed to start a bit easier.  I also noted that I could idle the engine down and accelerate it to higher rpm fairly easily.  I spent a fair bit of time playing with the main jet and ended up leaving at the factory setting.  I did set the idle stop and slightly enriched the idle mixture on the carb and got it run as you'll see in the next 2 videos.

This is the engine running at low rpm.  I had to hold my finger on the throttle to keep it closed as it wanted to vibrate open.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9dPAy3hul4

And the engine running at high rpm.  The throttle seemed to stay at this position fairly well.  I could actually get it to run a bit faster, but I had to just ease the throttle open just a bit more and it wouldn't stay there. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09-EfXOc8AU

So, I"m calling this engine a success!! :whoohoo:

I still need to clean it up a bit and get it mounted on the mounting board. 

So, I want to acknowledge and thank some people. 

Mr. Webster for his excellent plans!
Roy Scholl for his excellent ignition system! 
All the previous builders that gave so many great hints in their build logs!
All those watching this build log and offering encouragement!
And a special thanks to Brian Rupnow for his starter hub design and 'Setting Up and Running Guide"!

I hope everyone has enjoyed following along during this build!

After I get the engine properly mounted, I'll take a better video and post it over in 'The Showcase" forum under 'Engines'.

And yet again, thanks to everyone for following along.

Enjoy!

Mike

Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: Brian Rupnow on July 01, 2021, 11:59:14 PM
Great job Mike. Congratulations on such a fine runner. ---Brian Rupnow
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: Kim on July 02, 2021, 12:30:42 AM
That's great, Mike!  It ran right away and only got better!  You did your troubleshooting very quickly too!  Quite impressive, I'd say.

Well done!  This should make you feel pretty good  :cartwheel:

Congratulations!
Kim
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: RReid on July 02, 2021, 01:17:22 AM
Congratulations! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on July 02, 2021, 01:38:35 AM
Nicely done!

Dave
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: kuhncw on July 02, 2021, 03:55:38 AM
Well done.  I like the low rpm mode.

Chuck
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: MJM460 on July 02, 2021, 11:03:03 AM
Hi Mike, congratulations on getting the engine running so quickly.  It’s been a great build to follow from the start and nicely done.

Any fine tuning required is so much more encouraging now you know it runs.

MJM460

Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: ShopShoe on July 02, 2021, 12:17:13 PM
Congratulations

I like the low speed running too.

We can now add your Webster to the list of successful builds of this engine for future builders to consult.

Thnak You for posting,

--ShopShoe
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: RayW on July 02, 2021, 03:17:56 PM
Excellent job Mike. It runs really smoothly at fast and lower speeds. You must be very happy. Congratulations.
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: Bearcar1 on July 03, 2021, 03:50:38 PM
Nicely done Mike!! I like it running slow. Nice and steady. Thats a keeper.


BC1
Jim
Title: Re: Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine
Post by: mikehinz on July 08, 2021, 12:38:47 AM
Again, thanks to all that have viewed this build and offered encouragement and congratulations!

I'm going to post a few final high quality pix in 'The Showroom' under Engines here shortly.  I'll have a few still pix and 2 videos of the engine running.

I'm working on what I'll do next and am deep into planning and building the 3D model.

Mike
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