Model Engine Maker
General Category => Chatterbox => Topic started by: scc on June 24, 2020, 09:01:09 PM
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Having made my 4" scale Burrell I tried my hand at something smaller...an 1/8scale scratch built slide valve engine measured from a full size one. The journey has been interesting, highlighting my lack of precision tackle (and ability) So what next? Whilst I am full of admiration for all the exquisite model engines here, I could not get inspired to try one unless a full size working engine already existed. I have considered a hit & miss open crank engine but as I have a boiler arriving soon it will have to be steam. Another complication is the cost of casting sets which I cannot justify at present. I bought an RDG flywheel and a lump of cast iron for the Charlesworth, the rest was Jo type scrapbinium!
Suggestions on a postcard, etc :thinking: Terry
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It takes a long time to make a 4" traction engine :Love: you have time to make many model engines .
Why not try one of each and see where your preferences lie? ;)
Jo
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Any old engines at museums or factories near where you live? Lots of fun to go measure one for a model version, if they will let you.
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Look at sites such as Preston Steam and use google images, I've found quite a few things on there some of which have already been made but most still in the "future projects" folder. I have also made from photos and a few known dimensions of museum engines, old illustrations and etchings or scaled up/down existing models with all or almost all parts fabricated.
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Thank you People for suggestions. Terry
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One of the Anthony Mount engines from his books?
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The Charlesworth was measured up from full size and you are right that there are many engines locally (lucky me :LickLips:) I just fancied building to someone else's drawings. Anthony Mount's engines have always appealed to me, I just doubt my abilities to do one. I have no collet systems etc., so would need to invest to give myself a chance. In the meantime I need to complete the Charlesworth and carry out some mods on the Burrell. (Replace disc flywheel with spoked and black some cylinder covers and hubcaps to make more"Isaac Ball" like!! Terry
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If you want to make an engine using someone else's design but it should be based on a real engine, there are a few cheaper casting suppliers around:
Anthony Mount's engine designs - supplied by Polly Engineering.
Hicks Engines - supplied by Hemmingway.
Reeves 2000 have a number of engines a couple are based on full sized engines (and the Commander is a full sized engine)
While Brunel have some models based on prototypes but I would advise against purchasing from them unless you can go there and only part with your cash when they actually hand over all the items.
Alyn Foundry does a couple of rather nice models of full sized engines: The Allman, Robinson X type (Chippy Engine) and the other Robinson Stirling engine.
Engineer's Emporium have some of Kornmuller's historical models as well as the (expensive) DH Gypsy Major and a number of Hit and Miss Models.
Blackgates were going to make available the Murdoch Aitken Table engine, known as the "Clarkson Steeple Engine "
There must be more :thinking:
Anthony never used to use collets when making his models ::)
Jo
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You don't really need a collet system, that Filer and Stowell I finished last month was done without using mine just for the hell of it though 5C is nice for small work. You can also up the size of any design if you are making your own or go down for that matter.
I suppose something vertical would be a good complement to the horizontal you have just made, Engineers Emporium do a Tidman organ engine at full size, I did one from photos at 2/3rd scale which is still a good size engine
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Thank you Jo and Jason :cheers: I'm encouraged and will look into your suggestions. Terry
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In Lancashire you are spoilt for choice of prototypes locally. You have the Northern Mill Engine Society at Bolton, MOSI in Manchester, Bancroft, and there are numerous small engines about the place at Ellenroad.
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Hey SCC, that could be the next project, go around and draw up plans for all those engines. One big diorama!
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Definitely spoilt for choice......I have visited them all :) indecision, indecision :thinking: and not forgetting the wonderful Anson Engine Museum nearby. Time will tell. Thanks All for the suggestions :ThumbsUp: Chris..thanks but no thanks :???: Terry
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You mentioned the Anson Engine museum Terry.
My association goes back to the early eighties, it has grown beautifully over time!
My favourite steam engine on display ( in steam on special events ) is the Crowther. It embodies the mix of both art and practicality. They also have the Stott and a very nice example of a Robey beam engine too.
Although I'm not a " Steam guy " I can certainly appreciate the engineering in these exhibits, Geoff Baker, the engine driver is also a very passionate presenter.
Here's a video I shot of the Crowther in action....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhmIyluYbAA
The flywheel was too big to machine so the makers chose to create a square hole in the boss mated to a square on the crankshaft. By the use of " carefully " placed wedges it runs pretty true, don't you think?
Cheers Graham.
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Thank you Graham. Not noticed that one before! Beautiful isn't it.. Terry
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Thats one of my favvorite engines - looks like an altar to Steam!
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With an eye to low costs and fabricated construction I am looking at Anthony Mount's "Farcot Table Engine" or the Tidman organ engine. Jason's prototype is stunning. I think I'm going for a vertical engine this time........or maybe a beam :facepalm2: Terry
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If you do opt for the table engine then it would be worth looking up Ramon's build of the Waller engine as his methods will be a good guide even if not the same table engine.
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With an eye to low costs and fabricated construction I am looking at Anthony Mount's "Farcot Table Engine"
I suggest if you do make this engine you do the challenging construction of the Entablature first ;)
Jo
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Just to tempt you further
https://picclick.co.uk/1869-French-Steam-Engine-Print-Vertical-Machine-Four-143168695999.html#&gid=1&pid=1
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Another option for a vertical that has a similar look to the Tidman and would be an easier fabrication is the 2" x 2" Clarkson vertical, castings are available from Blackgates but as you say a more costly option.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFZxTmeXNMk
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Another nice one Jason, Spoilt for choice :headscratch: :headscratch:. I even looked at some Sanderson beam castings on Ebay ::) I even thought I might look again at the stirrup engine at work. No rush at present. Terry
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castings are available from Blackgates but as you say a more costly option.
Only if you have plenty of cost free materials already to hand ::)
Jo
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True Jo, I think I have fallen in love with that 2" x 2" Clarkson with reversing gear :Love:
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castings are available from Blackgates but as you say a more costly option.
Only if you have plenty of cost free materials already to hand ::)
Jo
Why? still cheaper to buy in material.
Last one I worked out the costs on was similar to a Stuart No7, and allowing for buying all materials in 300mm lengths of most sizes and a few slices of larger dia stock, fixings, etc it was still 1/3rd the price of a casting set. left over material can go towards other engines so bringing the cost down further.
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You are welcome to spend your time fabricating and silver soldering things together and using your cost free CNC machine, I prefer to use castings.
The price of the 2" bore and stroke Clarkson engine casting sets from Blackgates are rather less than buying a similar sized engine from Stuarts. About 1/4 of the cost ::)
Jo
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Jo, in his opening post SCC said he wanted to fabricate so I'm suggesting suitable options, can't help it if he also wants to make things that way and not use castings.
As Blackgates don't include raw materials, fixings etc I would expect their casting only sets to be less than Stuarts but I expect that 2 x 2 Clarkson could be done for half or less of their £420 asking price so your comment about fabricating costing more is incorrect.
EDIT I've just gone through the drawing and to buy materials using M-machine pricelist, 300mm for small sections, per 25mm for larger would be approx £160, add in the RDG flywheel SCC already has and some fixings gives approx £200, as some of those materials and fixings would have to have been bought to go with the Blackgates castings then outlay is in the region of ONE THIRD
No need for him to get a CNC either as most of my fabricated engines have been done without one, just seems a shame not to use it now I have been given it.
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Engineer's Emporium have some of Kornmuller's historical models as well as the (expensive) DH Gypsy Major and a number of Hit and Miss Models.
Jo
Jo, I recognise that your knowledge of castings and what is available is encyclopedic. At present Engineer's Emporium do not advertise the DH Gypsy Major. Are they holding back castings? Also, are castings available elsewhere and would they cost an awful lot of money (what ever that may be)?
Although I have bought a number of casting kits, I have no knowledge on how the market works. Would Engineer's Emporium just sell the drawings?
AVTUR
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Jo, I recognise that your knowledge of castings and what is available is encyclopedic. At present Engineer's Emporium do not advertise the DH Gypsy Major. Are they holding back castings? Also, are castings available elsewhere and would they cost an awful lot of money (what ever that may be)?
They have it in their paper catalogue for £695. The owner of EE got very twitchy when he realised that Mike Coles had a copy from the original l German drawings to see what he was letting himself in for before buying himself a set of castings.
Jo
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EDIT I've just gone through the drawing and to buy materials using M-machine pricelist, 300mm for small sections, per 25mm for larger would be approx £160, add in the RDG flywheel SCC already has and some fixings gives approx £200, as some of those materials and fixings would have to have been bought to go with the Blackgates castings then outlay is in the region of ONE THIRD
Just found Blackgates have priced it at £365, so more than the original £250 I was expecting. The nearest sized Stuart would be the 5A which is smaller.
Jo
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Don't forget there is 20% VAT to add to thoseBlackgates prices which brings it to approx the £420 I stated. I added VAT to material costs.
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Well Well! :embarassed: you all have been busy on my account. Thank you one and all :cheers: Think I'll build a loco :LittleDevil: :naughty:
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Totally understandable, make sure it is the right shade of Green you don't want people giving you grief ::)
Jo
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Stroudley's Impoved Engine Green?
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Terry, if your love affair with the Clarkson is not over then I had a look at the drawings more closely last night and of the 24 castings I would say 10 are no more than round bits of metal and of the remaining 14 only 4 have some complexity about them the others being quite simple parts that you have shown you are more than capable of making with the Charlsworth.
Cylinder.
Could be cut from solid cast iron or built up from bronze/steel only needing two parts and it would allow you to make it a bit longer to give the piston some clearance at the ends which it does not have on the drawing :wallbang:
Trunk Guide
Just a turning job from steel with two blocks added to the sides to fix the legs to and some milling
Box Bed
at that size I would weld up the four sides from flat steel bar and slightly angle to represent casting draft then weld on a top from plate. Thick plate could have the mounting pads milled around or you could build up thinner plate by adding separate pads.
Legs
4 bits of steel, fabricate with bottom plate and plate that mates to trunck guide over thickness so they can be machined after fabrication, web is a cut and file to template as is the inner flange which also wants a bit of bending.
You could even paint it green if your heart is not set on grey with red pinstriping :Love:
Might even have a go myself, but need to finish off drawing ;)
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I think that settles it Jason, thanks for the input.
Jo, I'm glad you said green.....coming from Plymouth it had to be GWR :) I attatch an old photo of my late father-in-law, Roy Bryant, in his younger days firing his favourite King. Years later he retired as a top link man on 125s.
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OOPS! wrong piccy
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Thats better :atcomputer: :shrug:
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looks grey to me :LittleDevil:
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King Edward I 8) Are you going to model it with the earlier single or later twin Chimney?
And when are they ever going to finish her Heavy Overhaul :stickpoke:
Jo
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What scale? A 7 1/4 will be about £10K boiler plus castings, A 5" nearer £4K for the boiler.
I thought you said cheap :lolb:
Jo
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Got sidetracked again.....I am NOT going to model it
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Clarkson drawings ordered :ThumbsUp: and the steeple engine for good measure. :)
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Look forward to following the build(s), like the vertical there are really only 3-4 main"castings to the steeple that will need a bit of thought rest are more in teh way of cast bar stock.
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Don't hold your breath Jason, the Charlesworth is not finished yet :old:
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We have just had a pleasant couple of days with the caravan in the Yorkshire Dales. During the spells of wet weather I perused my two sets of drawings. Present thinking is that apart from the flywheel the whole of the 2" Vertical can be fabricated. As a change I think I would like to build the Steeple Engine from a set of castings. First glance at the cylinder looks tricky :thinking: When the Charlesworth is completed I hope to build the two together! (don't) watch this space :Lol: Terry
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Yet more days with the caravan in the Yorkshire Dales and time to think.........I have given myself an early birthday / christmas present :) I have just ordered the castings for the steeple engine and the flywheel for the 2" vertical......Building the Charlsworth has convinced me that I can cope with and enjoy small steam engine construction :whoohoo: So I'm looking forward to some fun......... When all the other jobs are complete that is! Terry