Author Topic: Sticking Engine M2  (Read 16875 times)

Offline hammer

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Sticking Engine M2
« on: November 16, 2012, 08:36:44 PM »
Sticking Engine M2. This engine like the last is destined for a model paddle steamer. The design brief is must be self starting & reversible, so twin double acting as before. Paddlers are unstable so low center of gravity, driving by gears 3 to 1 reduction. No castings.
The plans  :happyreader: are in my head and I have made a start. Geoff

Offline hammer

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Re: Sticking Engine M2
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2012, 04:22:38 PM »
I realise my engine is quite simple, especially to you experts, but as I said I am only a learner. Just an old carpenter who thinks 1/16" is a fine measurement. This is not a show engine by any means, it will have to work & work. I will post photos of the progress. Geoff

Offline Don1966

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Re: Sticking Engine M2
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2012, 04:36:19 AM »
Looks interesting to me Geoff. I will be following you on your venture. Just keep the photos coming..        :headscratch:

Don

Offline steamer

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Re: Sticking Engine M2
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2012, 12:43:08 PM »
No Worries Geoff.

No one is born knowing this stuff.  Its a learning process

I've pulled up a chair and I'll be watching!

Dave
"Mister M'Andrew, don't you think steam spoils romance at sea?"
Damned ijjit!

Offline Alan Haisley

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Re: Sticking Engine M2
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2012, 05:12:06 PM »
Go to it, Geoff.

Offline hammer

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Re: Sticking Engine M2
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2012, 05:26:01 PM »
Thank you I need a little encouragement. Below the state of play. Geoff

Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: Sticking Engine M2
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2012, 06:04:57 PM »
Watching quietly, Geoff........

Looking good so far!  :ThumbsUp:

David D
David.
Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!
Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Offline Don1966

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Re: Sticking Engine M2
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2012, 07:53:57 PM »
That's very interesting Geoff, a cylinder on each side. The gear is what I don't quite understand. Are you powering the gear with the cylinder?

Don

Offline hammer

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Re: Sticking Engine M2
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2012, 09:22:31 PM »
Thats right don, the cylinder of brass will become the crank arms. Seperated from the engine, to the left. The large gear in first photo will be fixed to the paddle shaft. The ideal ratio is 3to1 reduction, the gears from my scrap box are a little less. Geoff
« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 05:25:38 PM by hammer »

Offline hammer

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Re: Sticking Engine M2
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2012, 05:28:55 PM »
Crank completed. Note the arm reduced on the inside so the bearing can be incresed.  Only 3/32" but every little helps. Geoff

Offline steamer

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Re: Sticking Engine M2
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2012, 10:39:38 PM »
Looking Good Geoff!

Dave
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Damned ijjit!

Offline Bezalel

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Re: Sticking Engine M2
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2012, 09:51:12 AM »
I'm interested and watching too Geoff.


Are the crank pins 90o apart or some other angle?

its hard to see in the photo

BeZ
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 08:56:06 PM by Bezalel »
Queensland - wet one day, humid the next

Offline hammer

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Re: Sticking Engine M2
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2012, 07:32:34 PM »
Yes squared at 90deg.  :cartwheel: Will post more Monday. Geoff
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 07:44:46 PM by hammer »

Offline hammer

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Re: Sticking Engine M2
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2012, 10:14:56 AM »
A little progress monday. Made conrods pistons & bigends. Also had a polish to improve the image. :lolb: Fitted the key to the shaft & gear. I had to change the bolts which hold the crank brakets, as they fowled the arms. Incresed the size & threaded one plate.  The sharp eyes will note one conrod has been ajusted for length the other not, also the pop marks to denote which side is which.  :shrug: Geoff

Offline hammer

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Re: Sticking Engine M2
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2012, 05:02:59 PM »
Well I messed  :Mad: :Doh: up the frame (I have called it frame as opposed to standerd being horizontal). The draw bolt came loose and the slot drill went into the steam passage.   :shrug: So back to square one.  Made a new one yesterday. Spent all today lapping the pistons & the port faces almost there. Geoff
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 05:07:16 PM by hammer »

Offline arnoldb

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Re: Sticking Engine M2
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2012, 06:22:22 PM »
 :facepalm2: That happens Geoff - Hang in there; persistence pays  :ThumbsUp:

Just a thought - from your last photos your port holes seem to be rather far apart off the center line axis in relation to the port hole sizes on the frame for a wobbler type engine...  How did you calculate/determine their positions and hole diameters ?

Kind regards, Arnold
Building an engine takes Patience, Planning, Preparation and Machining.
Procrastination is nearly the same, but it precludes machining.
Thus, an engine will only be built once the procrastination stops and the machining begins!

Offline hammer

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Re: Sticking Engine M2
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2012, 10:07:21 PM »
Arnold thanks for your interest. Almost all my knowledge comes Stan Bray's books from my town library. He ilustrates a gauge to mark the ports, basicaly a strip of metal with 4 holes. First one to fit the pivot pin, ether side of this the ports (measured from the cylinder). Then a hole to fit the crank pin,( I cut a slot here.) Put the gauge on the pivot and with the crank at 90deg, mark the ports. put on port face of cylinder aline with con-rod , mark ports.  The closer the crank shaft is to the cylinder the wider the distance between the ports. This is important in this design was the steam passages have to pass ether side of the hole for the pivot pin. The ports are 1.7mm seamed to work on my other engine.  Geoff
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 10:16:29 PM by hammer »

Offline hammer

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Re: Sticking Engine M2
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2012, 04:39:51 PM »
Almost finished, put groves in the pistons. This is suppose to stop some of the bypassing steam. I have my doubts about that. Used studs on end caps ( told it was the correct way) but the 10BA nuts are a pain to get no. Had to make a box spanner see below. Much easier to put screws in a hole. Just the cylinder clamps to complete. The bit and pieces are in photo.  Geoff

Offline hammer

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Re: Sticking Engine M2
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2012, 02:10:17 PM »
Finished just going to run it on air, but had a bang on the floor from the kitchen, lunch is served.  Geoff

Offline derekwarner

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Re: Sticking Engine M2
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2012, 05:34:44 AM »
Absolutely amazing  :ChineseBow:....a mate of mine from Paddleducks is building an engine that is virtually identical down to the smallest detail  :lolb: ..........he is from the UK two......but he has a different name ..or is it  :hammerbash: on my part ...Derek  :cheers:
Derek L Warner - Honorary Secretary [Retired]
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www.ils.org.au

Offline zeeprogrammer

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Re: Sticking Engine M2
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2012, 10:32:46 AM »
Looking forward to a video of it running Geoff.  :ThumbsUp:
Carl (aka Zee) Will sometimes respond to 'hey' but never 'hey you'.
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Offline hammer

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Re: Sticking Engine M2
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2012, 04:05:40 PM »
DEREK, who is this person :headscratch: stealing my ideas.  :noidea: If I find them I will SUE.  :paranoia:
ZEE, I will like to see it as well.  :whoohoo: Geoff

Offline Alan Haisley

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Re: Sticking Engine M2
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2012, 04:50:24 PM »
Used studs on end caps ( told it was the correct way) but the 10BA nuts are a pain to get no. Had to make a box spanner see below. Much easier to put screws in a hole.
Since this is a "working engine" rather than a model, I don't see where studs and nuts are an advantage over screws. If it were a model, even of something that never existed in 1:1 scale, the nuts would be needed for appearance..
Of course if you use nuts on studs you can use a torque wrench to control evenness of pressure (requires one to first make a working model of a miniature torque wrench.)
Alan

Offline hammer

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Re: Sticking Engine M2
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2012, 09:52:46 AM »
Arnold was right the ports are to small, deliberate!! I will have to drill them larger now.  No problem.
Alan, I wish I had used bolts. The only up side is I cut 1/2" and am left with 3/16", ideal for use on the paddle wheels.
The delay caused by a Holiday. Geoff

Offline hammer

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Re: Sticking Engine M2
« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2012, 08:05:35 PM »
Zee now you can see, just a short clip.  Stops and starts OK just needs bedding in now. Drilled ports 2.1mm.
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bF6oH9bNWA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bF6oH9bNWA</a>:shrug: When I sort youtube.Geoff
« Last Edit: December 14, 2012, 10:15:10 AM by hammer »

Offline zeeprogrammer

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Re: Sticking Engine M2
« Reply #25 on: December 13, 2012, 11:13:56 PM »
Another tease on the forum!  :cussing:

Sorry Geoff. The video comes up as 'not available'.
Carl (aka Zee) Will sometimes respond to 'hey' but never 'hey you'.
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Offline Don1966

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Re: Sticking Engine M2
« Reply #26 on: December 13, 2012, 11:40:50 PM »
Hi Geoff, still watching with interest. I could not pull the video up either.

Don

Offline hammer

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Re: Sticking Engine M2
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2012, 10:22:31 AM »
Sorry about the link, but it is working now.  :cartwheel: Not long but it proves it runs. The compressor scared me.
 Can't read my own writting had a 6 insted of a b.   :facepalm2: Geoff
   <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bF6oH9bNWA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bF6oH9bNWA</a>
« Last Edit: December 14, 2012, 10:31:15 AM by hammer »

Offline zeeprogrammer

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Re: Sticking Engine M2
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2012, 10:50:24 AM »
Looks good Geoff! Glad you got the video posted.

What does that rod that goes over the cylinders do?
Carl (aka Zee) Will sometimes respond to 'hey' but never 'hey you'.
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Offline hammer

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Re: Sticking Engine M2
« Reply #29 on: December 14, 2012, 11:33:05 AM »
Carl, there is another rod below both spring loded holding the cylinders against the frame. I have taken a photo which is better than words. Also in the picture is a home made box spanner to cure the problem of getting the 10BA nuts on and off. Geoff
« Last Edit: December 14, 2012, 11:55:51 AM by hammer »

Offline hammer

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Re: Sticking Engine M2
« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2012, 07:08:35 PM »
 I do have a problem, can't run it in using the lathe or drill.   :thinking: :headscratch: Geoff

Offline zeeprogrammer

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Re: Sticking Engine M2
« Reply #31 on: December 17, 2012, 07:36:43 PM »
Thanks for the pic and explanation. I'm not that familiar with wobblers but now I remember there's usually something holding the cylinder against the port.

I do have a problem, can't run it in using the lathe or drill.

Do you need to? It was running on air earlier. Just keep running it?
Carl (aka Zee) Will sometimes respond to 'hey' but never 'hey you'.
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Zee-Another Thread Trasher.

Offline Bearcar1

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Re: Sticking Engine M2
« Reply #32 on: December 17, 2012, 08:31:44 PM »
Looks like you will need to make up a quick, down and dirty fixture to hold a small pinion gear to mesh up to that driven gear between the cylinders Geoff. That is if you still want/need to break the engine in using external power. Neat looking little beastie.


BC1
Jim

Offline hammer

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Re: Sticking Engine M2
« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2012, 01:39:10 PM »
Yes I need to run, bed or break it in as it needs 40psi to run at the momment. Top pressure in the boat will be 25psi. So about 5lb on air with no load is the aim. The boss won't like me running the compressor for an hour or more, it makes so much noise I would end up  :whoohoo: crazey. A gear shaft I think the best option. Geoff  Photo of Mk1 in boat
« Last Edit: December 18, 2012, 01:42:53 PM by hammer »

Offline arnoldb

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Re: Sticking Engine M2
« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2012, 03:59:11 PM »
Good going Geoff.

 ;) I thought the port holes would require a bit of opening up... 

Going back to the photo where you show the engine's spring mechanism, that looks to be a fairly substantial spring.  Woblers are very sensitive to their spring settings - too much pressure from the spring will cause them to run very stiffly, requiring high pressure.
Could you perhaps try and find a spring made of thinner wire and add a couple more windings on it ? - that should give you a pretty significant reduction on the pressure needed to drive the engine, unless you have a lot of friction left on the crank shaft bearings, crank pins, connecting rod packing glands and piston fit.  In theory, the spring pressure applied to the cylinders to keep them on the port faces should be just enough to prevent the steam/air pressure from blowing them off the port faces.

I'm not too keen on running in engines by external means; the reverse driving through the drive train wears in the different joints and bearings on opposite sides of where wear would occur during the engine's normal operation - but that is just my own view and not necessarily correct.

Kind regards, Arnold
Building an engine takes Patience, Planning, Preparation and Machining.
Procrastination is nearly the same, but it precludes machining.
Thus, an engine will only be built once the procrastination stops and the machining begins!

Offline hammer

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Re: Sticking Engine M2
« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2012, 09:21:03 PM »
Thank you Arnold, I know you know what your are taking about. Good advice again. Yes it is sensative to the possition of the nuts. By the way those springs have been streched, in an atempt to make them softer. But I will have another look in the spring box. Geoff

Offline Don1966

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Re: Sticking Engine M2
« Reply #36 on: December 19, 2012, 12:44:45 AM »
Looking good Geoff, now I can understand what you are doing with the wobbler. Nice looking paddle boat too. Still following along here with interest.

Don

Offline hammer

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Re: Sticking Engine M2
« Reply #37 on: December 19, 2012, 10:36:48 AM »
Thank you Don, always good to know others are interested. As I said at the start a low centre of gravity is most important in a model paddler, especially if using steam the boiler having a high c of g.
Arnold, the pressure on the cylinder clamp is adjustable by screwing in or out the nuts. But with the stiff springs in is hard to fined the sweet spot. The friction is mainly from the conrod glands. Geoff
« Last Edit: December 19, 2012, 11:00:28 AM by hammer »

Offline hammer

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Re: Sticking Engine M2
« Reply #38 on: December 21, 2012, 03:49:58 PM »
 I have done the running in. Funny how some engines run better one way, lucky for me it is the right way. Here is a better video and a better run.
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PsbzyY5hjQ" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PsbzyY5hjQ</a>

Offline Bezalel

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Re: Sticking Engine M2
« Reply #39 on: December 29, 2012, 02:56:17 AM »
Looking good Geoff


 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:


Thanks for the Videos - its always good to see another goer


Bez
Queensland - wet one day, humid the next

Offline Don1966

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Re: Sticking Engine M2
« Reply #40 on: December 29, 2012, 03:11:23 AM »
I like that video better, looks like you have found all of your problems, nice runner too. Thanks for the video.

Don

Offline steamer

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Re: Sticking Engine M2
« Reply #41 on: December 29, 2012, 03:28:49 AM »
Well done Hammer!

Dave
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Damned ijjit!

Offline hammer

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Re: Sticking Engine M2
« Reply #42 on: December 30, 2012, 04:52:44 PM »
I know this is an engine site but I will show the boiler made for the paddler. In an attempt to keep the CofG low and still retain capasity. No1 ready for soldering. No2 Burners as finished. No3 The control end with regulator on gas & seperator on exaust. No4 Fill pipe & blow down pipe (goes over board) No5 The trap door is there to make sure the flame dosen't burn in the manifold. Geoff
« Last Edit: December 30, 2012, 05:01:28 PM by hammer »

 

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